00:10:54 <oerjan> the diæ̈resises are an integral part of #̈esoteric.
00:11:33 * oerjan just pasted that to see if the accents were showed properly in putty (at least the æ one was)
00:11:43 <oerjan> hm i think they both are
00:12:01 <oerjan> (the logs showed them separated)
00:19:21 <shachaf> your logreader is broken hth
00:22:44 <oerjan> <fizzie> (Also what are the attributes of a maximally Norwegian person?) <-- i think they have to spend a lot of time in the wilderness, preferably with skis on hth
00:24:09 <oerjan> shachaf: just for monowhyismybrainfailingme text, though
00:25:00 <shachaf> oerjan: your brain is infected by mononucleosis hth
00:26:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i also may have a slight headache
00:27:06 * oerjan fetched an apple to chase away the doctors
00:27:33 <shachaf> oerjan: apples are very dangerous when you're sick
00:29:01 <Fiora> phrase overheard at work: "they have to do the earthquake-bracing for the racks"
00:29:07 <Fiora> california is wonderful
00:31:23 <shachaf> kmc: did the wires end up catching it
00:32:31 <kmc> shachafffffff
00:32:34 <kmc> this behavior is v. confusing
00:33:07 <kmc> Fiora: I gotta figure out how to do that for the shelves in my room
00:33:21 <shachaf> i don't like making that k. of joke in every channel
00:33:34 <shachaf> maybe i'd be better off if i didn't make it in any channel............................
00:33:39 <kmc> shachaf: well I don't mind personally when it's re: a convo I'm in, but I figure others might mind (kmc the concern troll)
00:34:02 <elliott> do they actually have earthquakes you can feel in california
00:34:03 <Fiora> kmc: I don't remember like any actual earthquakes here
00:34:07 <elliott> somehow I cannot wrap my mind around this concept
00:34:15 <Fiora> elliott: I've felt two in recent memory (the past like, 3 years)
00:34:33 <kmc> I felt an earthquake in 3 years of living in Boston and never in 4 years of living in LA!
00:34:39 <Fiora> one was when the office I was in was on a higher floor (4th floor), so the building waved a bit even though the earthquake was small
00:34:40 <shachaf> kmc: do you mean people in this channel or in the other channel
00:35:04 <Fiora> the other one was literally directly under me at home, and very close to the surface, so it was like a sudden pulse (instead of shaking), and wasn't like, big or anything, just surprising
00:35:09 <shachaf> well, i figure it's no more confusing than e.g. zzo38
00:35:11 <Fiora> and weird since it felt nothing like a quake
00:35:27 <kmc> Fiora: my friend was worried because his apt building in SF is built on fill, so he looked up the engineering diagrams and it has 200 ft pilings down into bedrock
00:35:39 <kmc> so if the big one hits, the ground will liquify but he'll just be up on stilts
00:36:10 <kmc> also a BART tunnel runs thorugh the Hayward Fault and the plan for if a train is in the tunnel during an earthquake is basically "fuck"
00:36:22 <elliott> waving buildings is incredibly terrifying
00:36:32 <elliott> they should, like, nail them to the ground harder.
00:36:36 <kmc> like they have no plan... it would cost more to fix than the expected value of lives lost
00:36:39 <elliott> especially the skyscrapers.
00:36:44 <Fiora> elliott: the waving keeps them safer
00:36:48 <kmc> and while this sounds kind of terrible it's impossible to have a civilization without some logic of this form
00:36:53 <shachaf> elliott: imo nail the skyscrapers to the sky
00:36:56 <Fiora> like trees wave in wind
00:37:09 <shachaf> who ever heard of a skyquake
00:37:10 <Fiora> it's a little scary? but it doesn't wave much
00:37:18 <elliott> comfort is so much more important than safety ;_;
00:37:42 <elliott> okay how about nail the buildings down harder but also give everyone parachutes or something
00:38:06 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:38:12 <kmc> after 9/11 there were all kinds of daft schemes for skyscraper escape systems
00:38:17 <oerjan> <olsner> `translatetoerjan ei saa peittää <-- må ikke tildekkes hth
00:38:37 <oerjan> @tell olsner <olsner> `translatetoerjan ei saa peittää <-- må ikke tildekkes hth
00:39:05 <Fiora> "my epic monodialogue on alien bazongas" hussie.
00:40:28 <Fiora> homestuck update ¬_¬
00:43:10 <oerjan> shachaf: hjelper tørr hud
00:43:31 <oerjan> which is actually a swedish brand i think
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00:44:52 <shachaf> imo become hungarian and change your name to őrjan
00:46:03 <oerjan> my ø is actually short, so that would not be the proper accent even if transliterated
00:46:53 <shachaf> obviously it's short. if it was tall it would be written Ø
00:49:54 <oerjan> `? for further details
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00:56:36 <ion> Må ikke tildekkes. Får ej övertäckas. Do not cover. Ne pas couvrir. Ei saa peittää. Nicht zudecken. Niet afdekken. Non deve essere coperto. He hàkpbibàtb. Nezakryvat. Nie przykrywac. Neapklàt. Neuzdengti. Ne smije biti pokriveno. Kinni mitte katta.
00:59:18 <ion> I think one of them tries to be some kind of an approximation of Cyrillic letters.
01:01:42 <ion> HE HÀKPbIÀTb.
01:02:03 <shachaf> There should be a translate command that picks a random target language.
01:03:13 <Bike> in a thousand years, the only rosetta stone for translating this strange "English" into Double Polish is all the "do not cover" labels on a box
01:03:25 <kmc> Reverse Double Polish
01:03:45 <Bike> this is a family channel, kmc
01:05:06 <Gracenotes> it is a channel you can bring your family to
01:05:43 <Bike> right, like me and elliott's daughter, fiora
01:06:38 <shachaf> can i be your daughter too :'(
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01:18:30 <kmc> http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/crrnjbxt.html this "Removable Crossover" is insane
01:18:38 <kmc> esoteric trainz
01:19:49 <shachaf> ion: do you need a three-letter domain to get .fi
01:20:00 <Bike> http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/crrnjbxtehcrossover.jpg i'm scared kmc
01:20:04 <shachaf> it looks like you at least have to get ""special permission"" to get a two-letter .fi
01:21:39 <ion> kmc, bike: I like the filenames.
01:21:57 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, only two- and three-letter .fi names are allowed.
01:22:28 <ion> Just joking. What are you asking? :-P
01:22:42 <shachaf> i tried to register in.fi but it was rejected due to being a forbidden name or something
01:22:55 <shachaf> you have heh.fi so i thought maybe you know the regulations
01:23:01 <ion> I think they disallow <other tld>.fi
01:23:40 <shachaf> A quick whois suggests that s6.fi is "Domain not found" and in.fi is "Domain not available"
01:23:55 <shachaf> I read the PDF and it was kind of vague about this.
01:30:36 <kmc> shachaf: is it bad that I read that as ~"special permission"
01:30:38 <shachaf> In addition, certain words referred to in the Act (e.g. limited company, trademark) or abbreviations (e.g. oy, fi, com) cannot be registered as domain names.
01:31:08 <shachaf> kmc: as in an owned string thing?
01:32:39 <kmc> also → afk
01:32:47 <shachaf> kmc: soon the dreams will start
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01:58:38 <monotone> Well, there go my dreams of having the URL fi.fi/the/poodle any time soon.
02:04:58 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia
02:05:23 <shachaf> elliott already `pbflisted.
02:05:56 <Sgeo> I didn't see it then
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02:10:35 <shachaf> we've already has slist and pbflist today...................when's olist coming
02:11:09 <ion> How does one add self to <foo>list again, and what are slist and olist?
02:11:50 <shachaf> slist is homestuck, olist is order of the stick
02:11:59 <shachaf> It depends on the implementation.
02:12:08 <shachaf> `run cat bin/slist | rot13
02:12:13 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ Gnaro \ ngevd \ Atriq \ Svben \ abeggv \ Ftrb \ GungBgureCrefba \ nybg
02:12:25 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ brewna \ Ftrb \ SverSyl
02:12:37 <monotone> Doing a "`run echo YOURNAMEHERE >> bin/slist" ought to be sufficient.
02:12:37 <shachaf> You can just echo ion >> bin/olist and so on.
02:13:03 <monotone> I was just looking at those wondering what the hell they were for, but now I've learned!
02:13:13 <ion> `run r13 <bin/pbflist
02:13:15 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ Ftrb \ dhvagbcvn
02:13:29 <shachaf> r13ing pbflist doesn't help because I have /hilight funpuns :-(
02:13:39 <ion> `run echo ion >>bin/pbflist
02:13:54 <zzo38> If that is "slist" and "olist" then what is "pbflist" for?
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02:14:08 <shachaf> ion: There's also `pbflistdeluxe
02:14:11 <zzo38> Which stands for what?
02:14:17 <ion> zzo38: Perry Bible Fellowship
02:14:18 <shachaf> But that one costs $100/month to subscribe or something.
02:14:25 <ion> `pbflistdeluxe
02:14:53 <oerjan> looks like it needs better marketing
02:15:10 <shachaf> Well, pbf doesn't have very frequent updates.
02:15:33 <shachaf> Sometimes the issue is not the marketing but the product.
02:15:53 <shachaf> ion: Every available .fi has a digit in it. :-(
02:16:01 <shachaf> But there are 316 of them.
02:16:42 <ion> When getting my domain, i didn’t find any available two-letter one i would have preferred to the three-letter one i got.
02:16:42 <shachaf> I guess you went through this before acquiring heh.fi?
02:16:48 <elliott> I should re-figure out what one-letter-plus-ccTLD domains are still available one of these days
02:17:01 <zzo38> Sometimes my Dungeons&Dragons recordings is updated, although perhaps I should use a more consistent format like you have, so that you can filter on it if you want to access it.
02:17:02 <shachaf> There were some last time I checked.
02:17:14 <elliott> and then acquire one if it's still possible and they don't cost a billion pounds and they don't have draconian political problems
02:21:38 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobian_conjecture why is math hard
02:22:10 <zzo38> Because you cannot understand it perfectly.
02:22:56 <doesthiswork> this booklet describes an interesting language http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~rak/papers/newbook.pdf
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02:23:28 <shachaf> Bike: how celebrated is this problem
02:23:40 <shachaf> Bike: do people have Jacobian conjecture parties
02:23:48 <Bike> if not, we should have one.
02:25:52 <shachaf> hm sometimes it's surprising what problems are unsolved
02:26:13 <Bike> yes. that is actually the context this was presented to me in
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02:27:35 <shachaf> are any of these numbers good: 27 28 29 31 35 36 38 41 43 46 48 56 58 61 63 68 72 76 81 84 91 92 93 94 98
02:27:42 <shachaf> imagine them with .fi at the end
02:27:57 <Bike> hm. i like the look of 58.fi.
02:28:01 <Bike> but not 58.ro.
02:28:37 <shachaf> come on if you're going to be like that at least say Æsthetics
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02:29:47 <shachaf> 72 has a lot of factors but two of them are 3 (not really acceptable)
02:30:17 <shachaf> 48 is like a better 72 but it still has a 3 :'(
02:30:39 <shachaf> 27 is 3 3s "the worst number??" even though cubes are p. good
02:31:33 <shachaf> 81 is 4 3s is that better or worse than 3 3s
02:35:15 <shachaf> ion: Maybe I just can't get a .fi since I don't have a .fi (physical) address. :-(
02:35:53 <Jafet> Maybe you just need a .fi link layer address
02:36:45 <ion> shachaf: Oh. D-:
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03:25:23 <Fiora> http://ootbcomp.com/docs/belt/index.html this looks interesting but I can't stop looking at that guy's hair, wow
03:25:54 <Fiora> maybe if this follows that thing where programming language inventors have to have beards, his CPU design will be really successful
03:27:02 <Bike> a startup now emergingi from stealth mode.
03:27:22 <shachaf> haskell is doomed to fail now that Igloo quit msr :'(
03:27:52 <Bike> wow, he sounds like he looks
03:28:08 <Bike> "This is the most exciting new development in computing and hair fashion in ten years."
03:29:17 <Jafet> We've had about enough of all of this success.
03:30:04 <Bike> you can get a thousand DSPs for $17, huh
03:30:08 <shachaf> have you even seen Igloo's beard
03:32:44 <Bike> "Price: wild guess" lol
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03:35:24 <Bike> Fiora: up to explaining 33 ops/cycle. chip design is the most stunningly "no, you can't describe this with one number" field
03:36:32 <Bike> "really nasty things, like function calls"
03:37:26 * Fiora is bad and hasn't actually watched it <.<
03:38:01 <Bike> well, basically he put up "33 ops/cycle" but then explained that they're MIMD operations, they have to be independent, and it depends on the distribution of hardware on the chip (like, not 33 adds)
03:39:43 <Fiora> so it's just like typical x86 type of thing, except the architecture is designed to make more than just a couple per cycle feasible?
03:39:55 <Fiora> except like, without VLIWness?
03:39:58 <Bike> "typical x86 type of thing"?
03:40:17 <Fiora> ummmm multiple execution units and the ability to execute multiple instructions as long as they're of different types?
03:40:21 <Fiora> sorry, I wasn't clear
03:40:28 <Bike> oh, that seemed to be the intention, yes
03:40:55 <Bike> you s hould probably just listen to the talk instead of to me misinterpreting everything
03:41:19 <Bike> haswell has "nearly 500 possible sources" of operands, gosh
03:43:39 <Bike> he says routing sources to sinks is half of haswell's power use ._.
03:44:55 <Fiora> it's not surprising :/ I mean like OOE is basically a bunch of queues
03:46:11 <Bike> he says 500 sources is mostly for rename registers, so get rid of those i guess
03:46:27 <Fiora> yeah, that's the physical register file
03:47:24 <shachaf> i always thought OOE was implemented with magic dust
03:53:31 <Bike> this seems pretty hard to write assembly for (what a change)
04:00:00 <Sgeo> Can someone remind me why I rejected Smalltalk the last time I looked at Smalltalk?
04:00:12 <Sgeo> Because I'm getting into Smalltalk again
04:02:22 <Bike> "there's a canonical pain in the neck in instruction set. Called divide."
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04:22:58 <zzo38> Why don't you make a simpler one?
04:23:06 <Bike> a simpler what
04:23:16 <zzo38> A simpler CPU design
04:23:27 <Bike> did you see the link.
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06:25:46 <kmc> http://jerkcity.com/_jerkcity1681.html
06:27:38 <Bike> pictures carnot engine
06:52:03 <kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
07:02:14 <kmc> shachaf: how hard do you think it would be to extract useful information from a 44.1 kHz 16 bit 2 channel raw PCM recording of speech, encrypted with AES-ECB with an unknown key?
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07:15:35 <shachaf> Hmm. That's like mapping every 16(/24/32) byte block to some unique identifier.
07:16:41 <shachaf> I don't know enough (i.e. anything) about audio to know. :-(
07:16:48 <shachaf> How much information is there in 16 bytes?
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07:22:54 <kmc> i did this with some music i had on my computer and about 0.4% of the resulting file consisted of blocks that occurred at least twice
07:23:00 <kmc> except that was only one channel
07:25:03 <kmc> you can recover speech from an encrypted VoIP channel using knowledge of the variable-bitrate codec in use http://www.cs.unc.edu/~fabian/papers/tissec2010.pdf
07:25:53 <zzo38> Can you vary the bitrate using the key?
07:26:55 <shachaf> Huh. Recover actual speech?
07:27:03 <kmc> i dunno read the paper
07:27:14 <kmc> zzo38: how do you mean
07:27:14 <shachaf> what am i paying you for hth
07:27:23 <kmc> your taxes pay my salary?
07:27:33 <shachaf> kmc: invent a voip client that sends only the bitrate
07:28:14 <zzo38> Can you protect against that by varying the bitrate by the key and/or using a different coded?
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07:43:37 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, I tried recording a small PCM file and I'm not seeing any duplicates.
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07:45:29 <shachaf> (conclusion: ecb mode is safe)
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08:18:33 <fizzie> Aw, the paper "only" locates predefined phrases. (Still nice.)
08:19:07 <HackEgo> 663) <shachaf> fizzie: What kind of speech recognition do you do? <shachaf> If you only need to recognize famous speeches, like Churchill or something, it should be pretty easy.
08:19:32 <fizzie> Yes, it's that kind of.
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10:07:24 <itsy> I'm off to the Centre for Computing History in Cambridge tomorrow http://ComputingHistory.org.uk :-)
10:12:00 <itsy> Erm... I think this covers it http://about.me/john_metcalf
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11:19:59 <Jafet> <tree xmlns="http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul" ...>
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12:32:07 <quintopia> i got pbflisted. was it serious this time or another false alarm?
12:34:03 <fizzie> Traditional hellos from the Assembly event thing.
12:37:18 <fizzie> "Oh, cool. It's serious." -- things you rarely hear at the doctor's.
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12:43:59 <Jafet> "The Mozilla build process requires many tools that are not installed on most Windows systems. In addition to Visual Studio, you must install MozillaBuild, which is a bundle of software including just the right versions of bash, GNU make, autoconf, Mercurial, and much more."
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13:18:00 <boily> good quote-depleted morning!
13:19:41 <boily> @tell oerjan I kinda lost count of the recursion layers. are we still on a natural number, of have we reached reality?
13:20:54 <boily> the haskell weekly news only has a single quote.
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13:28:18 * boily pokes fizzie with a vietnamese wooden spatula
13:32:01 <fizzie> I bought a graphics card (special Assembly discount deal), and it came with... let's see... "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Blacklist Digital Deluxe Edition" and "Metro: Last Light".
13:32:21 <fizzie> I have no idea what these are (except that they're games), but they're "not for resale".
13:34:18 <boily> ~duck splinter cell
13:34:18 <metasepia> Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell is a series of award-winning action-adventure stealth video games the first of which was released in 2002, and their tie-in novels.
13:34:25 <boily> ~duck metro last night
13:34:25 <metasepia> The Legend of Zelda HD Experience is an upcoming action game video game for the Wii U, Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 which is being developed by 4A Games.
13:34:46 <fizzie> I am not entirely sure that last one is helpful.
13:35:19 <fizzie> Unless "Metro: Last Night" is the same thing as The Legend of Zelda HD Experience.
13:36:05 <boily> well, the 4A Games part is correct.
13:36:20 <Fiora> splinter cell is like this long running series of spy game things? I think I played a tiny bit of one a long time ago, you could check the reviews on this one?
13:36:34 <fizzie> I don't really like shooting. Do these games feature any shooting?
13:37:00 <Fiora> they're both shooters
13:37:12 <boily> there is shooting, and all the gibs and splatter and gore and flying random fleshy bits.
13:38:08 <fizzie> Bleh. I'm not good at things where you have to do a thing.
13:38:27 <fizzie> But it's "not for resale", so they'll presumably shoot me if I try to sell them to someone.
13:38:32 <Fiora> (of like, the man-shoot variety, not the glowy-bullet-dodging variety)
13:38:51 <fizzie> Fiora: You mean, they're not shmups.
13:40:13 <fizzie> Also: the #esoteric presence bitmap visualization thing I made is not draggable on Android-touchscreen-Chrome.
13:40:19 <Fiora> sorry, I kinda just wanted an excuse to say glowy-bullet-dodging.
13:40:45 <fizzie> It's done with mousedown/mousemove/mouseup eventry, I guess that doesn't really happen here.
13:41:45 <fizzie> boily: A bitmap. You know, it's a map in time.
13:41:55 <fizzie> And "presence" means "being on-channel".
13:42:15 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html
13:42:39 <fizzie> You can check yourself out on there.
13:42:58 <fizzie> I only see up to 2009 and can't drag. :/
13:43:32 <Fiora> oooh, that's kind of cool.
13:43:59 <fizzie> Fiora: We can see when you sleep.
13:44:11 <fizzie> Also there seem to be some gaps.
13:45:29 <boily> elliott's traces are scary.
13:45:40 <fizzie> boily: As is only appropriate.
13:50:10 <Fiora> fizzie: when I sleep is not quite a secret :p though I also nap a lot too
13:50:47 <fizzie> Fiora: The naps would need to be quite regular in order to be visible.
13:51:52 <Fiora> oh, you can add multiple layers. is this a who-is-whose-alt tool? :P
13:52:47 <fizzie> I think it was already used to prove kmc is Taneb, or something like that.
13:53:50 <fizzie> In re layers, the blending is kinda wrong, so it's best to put a dark-ish color like red on the bottom, and a bright one (like turquoise) on top.
13:55:16 <boily> kmc: are you Taneb?
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14:37:46 <metasepia> Behind all the political rhetoric being hurled at us from abroad, we are
14:37:47 <metasepia> bringing home one unassailable fact -- [terrorism is] a crime by any civilized
14:37:47 <metasepia> standard, committed against innocent people, away from the scene of political
14:37:47 <metasepia> conflict, and must be dealt with as a crime. . . .
14:37:47 <metasepia> [I]n our recognition of the nature of terrorism as a crime lies our best hope
14:37:47 <metasepia> [L]et us use the tools that we have. Let us invoke the cooperation we have
14:37:48 <metasepia> the right to expect around the world, and with that cooperation let us shrink
14:37:48 <metasepia> the dark and dank areas of sanctuary until these cowardly marauders are held
14:37:49 <metasepia> to answer as criminals in an open and public trial for the crimes they have
14:37:49 <metasepia> committed, and receive the punishment they so richly deserve.
14:37:50 <metasepia> - William H. Webster, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 15 Oct 1985
14:39:44 <metasepia> Fortune finishes the great quotations, #2
14:39:44 <metasepia> If at first you don't succeed, think how many people
14:39:56 <boily> hm. not a good fortunate day.
14:39:58 <metasepia> Your divination: "Clustering" to "Confining"
14:41:14 <boily> so, we gather together and get oppressed.
14:41:39 * boily stays away from any divinatory tool today as a safety measure
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14:56:36 <augur> so im reading dennett's intuition pumps
14:56:54 <augur> and ch 24 is basically an intro to register machines
14:57:25 <augur> which is fun, because now im thinking about how to write an advanced imperative language on top of it
14:59:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: What's this CTCP-version thing?
15:02:24 <Roujo> fizzie: It's a request for your client to identify itself
15:02:48 <fizzie> Roujo: Yes, yes, I know what it is; I was more curious about the whys.
15:02:55 <Roujo> fizzie: Oh. Sorry =P
15:03:10 <Jafet> Identify yourself, fizzie.
15:03:56 <Fiora> maybe Deewiant is trying to figure out which type of fizzie you are
15:03:59 <Fiora> like, a coke? pepsi?
15:04:24 <fizzie> Jafet: *beep* this is fizzie v0.9pre1+55e82e1eb131597ce6ef77ff775b2c2e5f4d6b45 -- all systems nominal *beep*
15:05:42 <Roujo> It's funny how systems are always either nominal or off-the-charts
15:07:08 <Jafet> Why use nominal systems when you can use significant ones.
15:08:02 <Fiora> *beep* this is Fiora v1.24 -- all systems kind of nominal, but needs food *beep*
15:11:19 <fizzie> Ooh, we've a post-1 version here.
15:14:51 <Fiora> yes, that's because I'm old'
15:16:09 <fizzie> I'm "old" too, and still a prerelease.
15:16:26 <fizzie> That said, someone should version oerjan too.
15:17:25 <Jafet> You should become a Mozilla project, they have nice version numbering.
15:17:48 <Fiora> I don't want my source code to be public though :/
15:17:54 <Fiora> that's kind of a little bit too invasive, you know?
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15:19:59 <Jafet> Hardly anyone bothers to read it anyway. I would be more worried about the imminent increase in size.
15:20:28 <Fiora> then they'd know about all my subroutines and all my weaknesses
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15:20:49 <Fiora> and they probably still couldn't really do anything useful! like fix that old feature request from years back to add cat ears
15:22:56 <Jafet> I'm sure you can get cat ears as an external "add-on".
15:23:22 <Fiora> and there's still that bug where it falls asleep constantly throughout the day
15:23:42 <Jafet> You would not be the first Mozilla product to have this problem
15:24:00 <Fiora> and the emotion engine really could use some tuning
15:24:26 <boily> I could use some tuna.
15:24:45 <boily> delicious, 美味しい tunafish...
15:26:58 <Fiora> I'm now imagining like pull requests for people
15:27:32 <boily> not sure it's a good idea. it'll end with “pull my finger” jokes.
15:28:05 <Jafet> https://github.com/msporny/dna/pull/1
15:40:05 <Roujo> "Error: blob is too big"
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17:04:53 <nortti> do you have any experience with linux on powerpc macs?
17:05:40 <nortti> did you have working audio?
17:05:48 <kmc> don't recall
17:13:21 <fizzie> And had working audio at least on the iBook.
17:13:32 <fizzie> Can't be quite certain about the Performa whatever.
17:13:43 <fizzie> (The one where MkLinux was the only choice.)
17:14:44 <itsy> Did anyone here have a ZX Spectrum? I'm just writing a bit of Z80 at the moment!
17:14:58 <fizzie> I have a speccy friend, does that count?
17:15:03 <Roujo> I installed debian on an old PPC Mac
17:15:07 <fizzie> Also I've written some amount of Z80 code for the TI-86.
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18:16:30 <metasepia> CYUL 011811Z 22022G34KT 4SM -SHRA BKN012 OVC025 19/17 A2979 RMK SC6SC2 RERA TCU ASOCT PRESRR SLP088 DENSITY ALT 700FT
18:17:29 <Roujo> The weather here is freaking insance
18:18:14 <kmc> I installed Linux on a bunch of 68k Macs
18:18:28 <Roujo> Although it seemed to have calmed down now
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18:26:14 <boily> Roujo: where are you from?
18:27:10 <Roujo> Le monde est petit, et tout et tout =P
18:27:18 <boily> c'est ça qui est ça :p
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18:29:14 <elliott> are you asking him for his coordinates and body weigh
18:30:33 <boily> Roujo: je me dois de te poser la La Question: quelles sont tes coördonnées approximatives, et ta masse corporelle?
18:30:42 <boily> (pour les coordonnées, ça va déjà :) )
18:31:32 <Roujo> NullPointerException at Person.getBodyWeight();
18:31:57 <Roujo> Alternatively, 403 ^^
18:32:24 <boily> it's a number, which is better than what some people gave me.
18:32:36 <elliott> boily: I hope you omitted the last letter of the French word for weight
18:32:50 <boily> elliott: oh hm. didn't think about that.
18:32:57 <Roujo> elliott: Why the hell would he do that? =P
18:33:06 <boily> Roujo: it's... uhm... well...
18:33:39 <boily> oh. weight. no, wait. wait. not corporell, mass.
18:34:43 <elliott> alternatively you could translate the verb verb "weigh"
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18:37:38 <Roujo> It's in the survey as well
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18:38:22 <fizzie> This channel is plain steeped in tradition.
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18:44:53 <boily> ~eval (185 - 32) * 5 / 9
18:45:58 <boily> ~eval (212 - 32) * 5 / 9
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18:50:23 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
18:50:51 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:51:12 <Roujo> Are all of the bots from different people?
18:51:19 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:51:25 <zzo38> HackEgo and EgoBot are both from Gregor
18:51:45 <Roujo> Because I could bring mine here too =)
18:52:00 <Roujo> To help them get closer to a majority
18:52:14 <boily> mine is metasepia, fungot is fizzie's, jconn is jafet's (I think).
18:52:15 <fungot> boily: i actually was wondering. :p http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ help:... :i have an alghoritm witch describe low levels bits operation that should be
18:52:42 <Roujo> I tried to parse this for wayyy too long
18:53:09 <Roujo> I'll bring my bot here, then
18:53:13 <Roujo> I just have to fix her first >_>
18:53:18 <Roujo> She forgot about prefixes
18:53:39 <Roujo> So she reacts to anything that looks like a command, whether or not she's supposed to
18:54:24 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:54:41 <Roujo> https://github.com/Roujo/Emily-Core
18:55:04 <elliott> boily: jconn is nobody from here's.
18:55:10 <elliott> well, sgeo's if anything :p
18:55:29 <Roujo> Something tells me there's quite an overlap between Agora and here =P
18:55:38 <Roujo> You don't like Java, do you =P
18:56:15 <fizzie> fungot: Do you agree that there should be some sort of "esolang bots only" rule?
18:56:16 <fungot> fizzie: i really wish someone had layed down the law and taken away he damn thing when i know that
18:56:55 <Roujo> Sure, let me bring my Brainfuck bot instead
18:57:09 <Roujo> Also, Emily is built on an Esolang
18:57:14 <Roujo> That's a Superset of Java
18:57:21 <Roujo> And build using the same compiler
18:57:26 <Roujo> And runs on the JVM
18:58:29 <Roujo> What the hell is fungot coded in
18:58:29 <fungot> Roujo: i never have! he wont let me do my tribute to fishnet stockings...
18:58:56 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:58:58 <Roujo> I saw that easlier today
18:59:08 <Roujo> I have the code in front of me
18:59:14 <Roujo> But I can't figure out what language it is
18:59:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:00:09 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:00:16 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping
19:02:25 <boily> haskell counts as an esolang? right?
19:03:42 <olsner> unless it's a very elaborate joke, I'm pretty sure the haskell people are serious about it
19:05:31 <olsner> boily: also, have you looked at ursala?
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19:06:36 <boily> olsner: last time I tried, my brain suddenly froze for no apparent reason, and when I regained consiousness I had tribal paintings on my body.
19:08:04 <fizzie> There is a: orchestra playing video game music concert: here.
19:08:12 <fizzie> I understand those things are quite popular.
19:08:56 <fizzie> They've also promised an "only at Assembly" mega-surprise at the end, so now I'm going to have to sit here through this all just to see something that's probably something really lame.
19:09:15 <boily> fizzie: you're at assembly?
19:09:31 <fizzie> boily: Every time since 1996.
19:09:48 <fizzie> (Okay, with one exception.)
19:09:54 <olsner> `learn ursala ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
19:10:19 <olsner> (extract of https://github.com/gueststar/Ursala/blob/master/contrib/sudoku.fun)
19:10:25 <elliott> that isn't an ideal example of ursala code because it lacks the random comprehensible substrings jammed in the midle
19:10:37 <elliott> where it briefly pretends to be a normal language
19:10:42 * boily feels extremely weird for a moment
19:12:21 <boily> Roujo: oh, two other traditions besides bot abuse and coördinating: `? and `quote
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19:22:52 <HackEgo> 659) <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.)
19:23:06 <HackEgo> 925) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world \ 926) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it \ 935) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday. \ 938) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my
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19:23:30 <HackEgo> Roujo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:23:50 <Taneb> ~eval (1, 2) ^. _1
19:24:06 <Bike> maybe you should "mix it up", elliott
19:24:23 <Taneb> ~eval "hello" ^. folded . enum . to Sum
19:24:24 <metasepia> Error (1): Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int' with `GHC.Types.Char'
19:24:24 <metasepia> -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor (Data.Monoid.Sum a0) a0)
19:24:24 <metasepia> -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor
19:24:24 <metasepia> (Data.Monoid.Sum a0) GHC.Types.Char
19:24:25 <metasepia> -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor (Data.Monoid.Sum a0) a0)
19:24:26 <metasepia> -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor
19:24:27 <metasepia> (Data.Monoid.Sum a0) GHC.Types.Int
19:24:31 <Taneb> ~eval "hello" ^. folded . re enum . to Sum
19:28:19 <Bike> the welcome! Roujo has "been" around the "block" you gotta get some other greet's going
19:30:01 <Taneb> Invisible character, right?
19:30:11 <boily> yep. very annoying.
19:30:29 <Bike> `WELCOME Roujo
19:30:31 <HackEgo> ROUJO: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
19:30:37 <Bike> you're lucky i'm here for HR, elliott.
19:31:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
19:31:52 <elliott> it should pick different words each time though
19:32:25 <Phantom__Hoover> would be hard to make sure it picked actual matches though-- what am i saying, that just makes it even better
19:33:03 <boily> let's try and ping idlers on this channel, and see how the respond to the thesaurelcome.
19:33:18 <boily> s/how the/how they/
19:33:28 <Bike> greetings from the transnational core of odd computation system architecture and diaspora! to learn more, try our website: http://oddcomputation.net/. (For another sort of oddness, check out http://www.ioof.org/
19:34:44 <elliott> want to add "the transnational core of odd computation system architecture and diaspora" to the topic but it would get too long :(
19:35:07 <Taneb> Satisfying facing dramaturgic foreign nerve centre because arcane prioritise jargon map also formation
19:35:13 <elliott> "for another sort of oddness" is also fantastic
19:35:20 <olsner> maybe you could use shadyurl to shorten that google docs link
19:35:59 <elliott> "odd computation" is a surprisingly good description of esolangs
19:37:06 <Taneb> Whereas higher clue inquiry away us wiki
19:38:33 <Taneb> Inasamuch as comic more friendly like mysticism shot #esoteric onward irc.dal.net
19:38:35 * boily applies electrodes to Taneb's brain and do a high-voltage reset of his language center
19:39:07 <boily> ah, c'est pas mal mieux!
19:39:44 <boily> ça va, ça va. il fait un peu trop humide à mon goût dehors, mais à part de ça ça va plutôt bien. comment est-ce que ça se porte à hexham?
19:40:37 <Taneb> Le temps est chaud
19:41:17 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, aidez-moi! Je ne veux pas parler français, pas plus!
19:42:05 <boily> la résitance est futile. prépare-toi à devenir canadien!
19:42:52 <Taneb> Canadien? Je pensais que je devenais belge!+
19:42:53 <boily> olsner: nothing to see here. everything is fine. Taneb is okay, he's certainly not calling for help.
19:43:04 <boily> Taneb: ah non, pour ça il faut parler à Koen.
19:43:49 * Taneb jette vers le haut
19:43:53 <olsner> see kids, this is what happens when you pretend canada is real
19:44:58 <zzo38> I don't need to pretend Canada is real, because I am at Canada, and here Canada is real.
19:45:30 <Bike> well that's not saying much, narnia is real in narnia too
19:45:48 * Taneb prend les électrodes et les insère retour dans son cerveau
19:45:52 <Taneb> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
19:45:58 <zzo38> Well, I suppose, but I live at Canada.
19:45:59 <Taneb> Oh god that is so much better
19:46:21 <boily> we have coppro, cpressey, Roujo, zzo38, and myself.
19:46:39 <boily> darn. Taneb escaped. come back here, you felon!
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20:08:57 <zzo38> Is there any strmove command in any C?
20:09:24 <Bike> what's that, strcpy + free?
20:09:33 <shachaf> Like memmove except for strcpy?
20:09:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes that is what I mean.
20:10:39 <Bike> so... the source and dest can overlap?
20:12:02 <zzo38> You could still use memmove for that but if there was strmove that would work too.
20:12:33 <Bike> so what's strmove for then.
20:13:11 <zzo38> Just like you could use memcpy instead of strcpy if you use strlen, but you could make it not require strlen if you use strcpy or strmove
20:14:20 <Taneb> Apparently my bank card expired in March
20:15:23 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't think you get the same benefit, though.
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20:15:37 <zzo38> shachaf: What benefit?
20:16:42 <shachaf> Well, with strcpy, you only have to iterate over the string once, whereas with strlen+memcpy you'd have to do it twice.
20:17:42 <boily> it's only a string, and it shouldn't be very long. besides, iterating over it twice still means the overall procedure is O(n).
20:18:18 <olsner> if I remember someone's benchmark correctly, strlen+memcpy is often faster than strcpy, so that might not be much of a benefit
20:18:46 <shachaf> If strlen+memcpy is faster than strcpy, then strcpy should be implemented as strlen+memcpy, clearly.
20:19:30 <olsner> I guess people thought anything with a single pass would so *obviously* be faster they didn't bother to check
20:20:05 <zzo38> Yes I do mean that if you had a strmove then you wouldn't have to iterate it twice like that.
20:20:06 <kmc> is that because memcpy can copy in bigger blocks?
20:20:16 <zzo38> And it might be long; don't assume it isn't?
20:20:22 <boily> someone should create an algorithm in O(1/n).
20:20:46 <zzo38> (If strlen+memcpy is faster than strcpy then yes it should be implemented like that instead)
20:21:04 <olsner> kmc: perhaps that and generally more attention being spent to optimization of memcpy
20:21:24 <boily> zzo38: a long string becomes a rope.
20:22:54 <zzo38> No, a string could be any data consisting of a series of nonzero bytes ending in a zero byte.
20:23:31 <boily> the lenghts of strings are too damn high!
20:24:38 * quintopia joins the string-lengths-too-damn-high party
20:25:12 <Taneb> But how long is a piece of string
20:27:12 <Taneb> Also how do I get a new debit card issues
20:27:34 <shachaf> Taneb: step 1: move to california hth
20:27:54 <Taneb> shachaf, but for that I need money and for that I need a new debit card!
20:29:11 <boily> first, become Canadian.
20:33:05 <boily> we can do that in installments. you just start very slow, with basic stuff like poutine, then progress from that.
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20:38:02 <Taneb> On another note, taking people at face value makes everything seem so much nicer
20:39:08 <Taneb> Someone said, referring to a thingy that I tried to organize the other day that no-one could make it to, "I don't want it to be just me and Nathan..." (she could make it, but nobody else could)
20:39:56 <Taneb> Apparently, that was packed full of subtext and loads of people got angry at her for saying it
20:40:07 <Taneb> But to me it seemed perfectly logical
20:41:05 <shachaf> just me and Nathan and Taneb and Ngevd and atriq
20:41:55 <Taneb> Not actually loads
20:42:32 <Taneb> I don't want to concern myself with it!
20:42:35 <Taneb> I don't like being angry!
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21:23:27 <kmc> error: unresolved name `RcMut`. Did you mean `id`?
21:23:32 <kmc> the keys are right next to each other
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21:59:35 <kmc> error: mismatched types: expected `[type error]` but found struct
21:59:37 <kmc> shit rustc says
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22:18:57 <shachaf> kmc: imo start the twitter account
22:20:16 <comex> kmc: bug report it
22:21:47 <shachaf> in open source mozilla, bug reports you
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22:38:48 <fizzie> Re the surprise they promised: it was that the orchestra/choir performed an arrangement of the soundtrack of Second Reality.
22:39:57 <fizzie> No; it's an iconic PC demo from 1993 or so.
22:40:15 <fizzie> From Future Crew; it's quite the famous.
22:40:34 <fizzie> With music by Skaven and Purple Motion.
22:40:46 <shachaf> kmc: btw is this ""unsene"" thing a parody y/n
22:41:04 <FreeFull> http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=63
22:41:48 <FreeFull> http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=1216 This is the C64 remake
22:41:49 <fizzie> The cityscape soundtrack (as performed by orchestra) resembled quite much the one in Final Reality, the early-ish graphics benchmark software those guys did.
22:42:42 <fizzie> The C64 port is impressively faithful to the original.
22:43:32 <fizzie> http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=7259 This is the benchmark.
22:43:43 <fizzie> (DirectX 5! So modern.)
22:45:04 <kmc> shachaf: what is it
22:45:29 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/unsene-secure-and-private-chat-calls-and-photo-and-file-sharing
22:45:36 <shachaf> hm do they get pageranks or something if i link to it
22:45:46 <shachaf> i thought you had talked about it previously but maybe it was someone else
22:46:43 <shachaf> also e.g. http://unsene.com/blog/2013/06/15/is-most-encryption-broken/ etc.
22:46:51 <Fiora> "nd now, with the recent revelations about the NSA" but but it goes through their servers and they keep logs
22:47:22 <shachaf> Includes xAES (which was in the running for the AES standard and has much higher bit rates) and we are developing a flexible One Time Pad system, which is nearly immune to cryptanalysis.
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22:47:54 <Bike> "Secure your freedom™" that's fantastic
22:48:05 <Fiora> "We don't participate in the NSA's PRISM program.
22:48:15 <Fiora> if... if they did they'd still have to say that
22:48:44 <kmc> charging extra for a developer account is super classy
22:48:44 <Fiora> geez this makes no sense -_-
22:48:51 <shachaf> i participate in the NSA's PRISM program!
22:49:17 <kmc> also I like that the first thing in the writeup is a TechCrunch quote but it's not, like, giving a favorable opinion of them, just saying what they claim to do
22:49:21 <shachaf> (i didn't even have to sign up or agree to any terms and conditions, it was p. great)
22:49:26 <Bike> "They are using computer technology that’s at least 30 years advanced over the computer you have, including quantum computers. These computers are at least 10 billion times faster than what you use. " mmhm.
22:49:42 <Fiora> and... and they can walk into the server room and just pick up your messages
22:49:43 <Bike> "Public domain encryption wouldn’t be allowed into the pubic unless it was cracked, because they wouldn’t be able to spy on you."
22:49:57 <kmc> allowed into the pubic
22:49:59 <shachaf> Bike: quantum computers, man
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22:51:01 <shachaf> Encryption looks like this:
22:51:04 <shachaf> wnsd8hgurXE#N69xerpgtnjusdmcir436,cf0dmg09#ns,d
22:51:06 <shachaf> That’s what the phrase “Encryption looks like this” looks like when it’s encrypted.
22:51:09 <Bike> they're, like, ten billion times faster.
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22:52:06 <shachaf> There are a couple of ways to deal with these threats. First, you can identify and remove them and this is how anti-virus software works. You can also install a firewall either in the network cable (which requires hardware) or on the computer itself to monitor and block the packets leaving your computer.
22:52:39 <kmc> i think these people are bad
22:53:36 <Fiora> it's like technobabble
22:55:33 <FreeFull> Or you could write your own operating system
22:55:38 <FreeFull> Rendering all malware incompatible
22:56:09 <shachaf> "Mission: Impossible-style self-destructing messages"
22:58:19 <shachaf> "Includes xAES (which was in the running for the AES standard and has much higher bit rates)" "XAES – a more secure and advanced version of AES, ours goes up to 4096 bits, which is über-strong. Unlikely to be broken as this has been customized from standard code libraries that aren’t widely known."
23:00:10 <Bike> oh, right, their entire marketing model is based on the idea that with more resources you can break anything and are a wizard
23:00:37 <Fiora> wasn't there a thing where there was an attack that was actually better against AES-256 than 128 because of insufficient mixing or something?
23:00:46 <Fiora> and like, generalizing to a bigger key size without enough mixing and rounds could be super dangerous
23:02:18 <elliott> this unsene thing hurts me
23:02:24 <shachaf> yes, but on the other hand, not being über-strong is also kind of dangerous
23:02:59 <comex> wanna bet that the implementation has a bunch of obvious weaknesses?
23:03:18 <Bike> luckily those weaknesses are hidden from the NSA>
23:03:42 <FreeFull> AES-10715086071862673209484250490600018105614048117055336074437503883703510511249361224931983788156958581275946729175531468251871452856923140435984577574698574803934567774824230985421074605062371141877954182153046474983581941267398767559165543946077062914571196477686542167660429831652624386837205668069376
23:03:59 <kmc> Fiora yeah there are related key attacks against AES-192 and AES-256
23:04:00 <elliott> comex: probably not, it's been customised from standard code libraries that aren't widely known.
23:04:21 <elliott> comex: how could they possibly break it if they don't know what it is??
23:05:16 <shachaf> elliott makes a good point
23:05:26 <shachaf> elliott: you should take the bet
23:05:30 <elliott> Is file-sharing like an email attachment? (obviously i have never used any file-sharing program)
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00:47:10 <Fiora> "In reality, cats do possess the ability to turn themselves right side up in mid-air if they should fall upside-down [...] Toast, however, lacks both the ability and the desire to right itself." wikipedia has some of the most amazing quotes
00:47:46 <Bike> I feel the aleged desire of cats to fall right side up should be gone into deeper here
00:47:56 <shachaf> Maybe you should contribute some quotes like these.
00:48:04 <shachaf> Wikipedia articles don't just right themselves, you know.
00:48:06 <Bike> You know for NPOV
00:48:46 <elliott> okay "Toast, however, lacks both the ability and the desire to right itself." has to go down as one of the greatest Wikipedia quotes of all time
00:49:08 <shachaf> That page should be nominated for deletion.
00:49:15 <Bike> "running ensembl vep on vcf from gatk unifiedgenotyper; not sensible right?" help
00:49:34 <shachaf> You'd get the same result from tying two cats or two buttered toasts to each other.
00:49:46 <shachaf> So, really, a better result.
00:49:56 <elliott> that just doesn't have the same winning combination of animal abuse + breakfast.
00:50:01 <shachaf> This page was nominated for deletion on 2006-03-28. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
00:50:04 <shachaf> This page was nominated for deletion on 2007-09-03. The result of the discussion was keep.
00:50:40 <elliott> Fiora: oh wow, that toast quote is even cited
00:50:51 <Bike> what's the cite.
00:50:55 <elliott> admittedly it's cited to mythbustersresults.com.
00:51:08 <elliott> In an extensive and highly objective test the toast showed no statistical preference for landing buttered side-down or up when dropped. It was an even 50-50 split when the final results were compared. However, when pushed off the side of a table, toast showed preference to flip once and land buttered side down.
00:51:17 <shachaf> The citation doesn't say anything about desire.
00:51:28 <shachaf> That looks like vandalism...
00:51:32 <Bike> Better add a [not in citation]
00:51:34 <elliott> well, desire ~ preferance.
00:52:07 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buttered_cat_paradox&diff=559007493&oldid=557098109
00:52:13 <Fiora> I think that quote should stay for being basicall the best thing
00:52:22 <Bike> hey, hey, no. Why are you even concluding that what the toast does is indicative of its preference? What if it's trapped with locked-in-to-toast syndrome?
00:52:38 <elliott> neds a cite to the journal of toast neuroscience
00:52:45 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buttered_cat_paradox&diff=535743465&oldid=535663473
00:53:06 <shachaf> How do you nominate things for deletion?
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00:53:11 <shachaf> Maybe I can get oerjan to do it.
00:53:16 <Fiora> "The fact buttered toast lacks cognition does not need to be cited." oh my gosh that edit summary
00:53:20 <Fiora> I cannot get over that edit summary
00:53:39 <Bike> wow, that's very short-sighted! panpsychism is a serious theory!
00:53:42 <elliott> However, toast, lacking both muscles and a desire to orient any particular way,
00:53:50 <Bike> disappointed in this argument tbh
00:54:08 <elliott> so what about clams on toast
00:54:23 <shachaf> everyone knows toast is liquid anyway
00:54:29 <shachaf> otherwise how do you drink it
00:54:50 <Bike> «The output of an [[active noise control]] system which cancels an existing noise, leaving the local environment noise free. The [[comic book]] character [[Iron Man]] used to have a "black light beam" that could darken a room in this manner, and popular [[science fiction]] has a tendency to portray active noise control in this light."<ref name="comp.dsp FAQ"/> The ''[[Batman Beyond]]'' supervillian Shriek also had a weapon like this, which
00:55:01 <Fiora> why are you being so shellfish
00:55:29 <Bike> triplefin blenny..
00:57:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/C%CC%AC%CC%A4%CC%AC%CD%94%CC%AE%CC%BA%CC%8B%CC%84%CC%84%CC%82%CC%93%CC%80%CD%A7%CC%90h%CC%BA%CD%8B%CD%A7%CC%93%CC%8F%CC%84%CD%82%CC%89%CC%93%CD%A6a%CD%94%CC%AC%CD%AB%CC%8E%CD%AD%CC%83%CC%83%CD%8A%CC%8A%C3%AC%CC%9C%CD%94%CC%BC%CD%93%CC%B0%CC%B1%CD%8D%CD%88%CC%B0%CC%8A%CC%89%CD%92%C5%88%CC%A4%CC%83%CD%A9%CC%92%CD%9C%CD%9C%CD%9Ef%CC%AA%CC%B2%CC%96%CC%8F%CD%A8%CC%88%CD%8B%CC%83%CC%9Aa%CC%B4%CC%AA%CC%AE%CD%A7%CC%93%CD%A3%CC%88%CC
00:57:55 <shachaf> Buttered cat: Wales’s favourite Wikipedia entry
00:57:57 <shachaf> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/8867079/Jimmy-Wales-Wikipedia-can-topple-tyrants.html
00:58:56 <Bike> elliott: this name seems hard to pronounce
00:59:26 <shachaf> If this article is deleted I will hew your wife in twain and turn your innards into poisonous snakes. --70.126.190.75 (talk) 01:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
01:01:39 <Bike> think you should take this threat seriously
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01:02:53 <zzo38> How can you turn your innards into poisonous snakes?
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01:15:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
01:15:54 <shachaf> `run cp bin/{empty,erf}list
01:19:05 <shachaf> does anyone even read error function world
01:21:46 <zzo38> I don't know, but I suppose now you have it there in case anyone does
01:22:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you read `olist?
01:23:35 <zzo38> I don't read any of these things that you have list for updates
01:28:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Which things do you read? Maybe we should make lists for them.
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01:32:12 <zzo38> I don't really read anything regularly, but I do write Dungeons&Dragons recording.
01:33:16 <shachaf> Can I read Dungeons&Dragons recording?
01:34:02 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
01:34:53 <zzo38> There is also the DVI compiled of it, and the dungeonsrecording.tex in the same directory which contains macros used for this file
01:37:00 <shachaf> That would be better for me.
01:37:51 <zzo38> No there is none; if you want that you have to compile it yourself.
01:38:29 <zzo38> However, the source file isn't so difficult to read.
01:38:40 <zzo38> No I don't have the program to compile it to PDF
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01:40:07 <shachaf> Now we are going back to the Boar Head Inn. Some of the chairs are broken, so Kjugobe uses some magic to make up a new chair. He borrows some writing equipment, and writes ``DO NOT SIT HERE PAST THE HOURS OF 6AM'' on the chair. (It seems likely some people will not understand the purpose of this message, ignore it, sit there anyways, and fall on the floor at 6AM when the chair disappears.)
01:40:22 <HackEgo> smlist (416): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
01:45:29 <kmc> zzo38: who do you play D&D with?
01:49:01 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZODtmaHIQng meanwhile, on the internet.
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01:53:27 <zzo38> shachaf: They are other characters; those players aren't always in, but they are the people I know. Kjugobe is my character.
01:54:01 <zzo38> (The name "Also" can certainly cause grammatical confusion, as it sometimes does)
01:55:17 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of story/game?
01:55:20 <shachaf> Meanwhile, Isolde goes back to the castle, and tries to serve the chancellor breakfast with these fertilized eggs, but the guards will not let Isolde to do so. Isolde tries to tell them, ``but, the eggs are hatching!'' Isolde hopes that the guards will take a closer look, and that they will immediately hatch and they will get scared to death; or else they will start laughing, fall to the floor, and trip on their own swords and die.
01:56:18 <shachaf> That's a big file. I can't read it all right now.
01:56:30 <zzo38> That's OK. I didn't write it all at once either.
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02:05:49 <zzo38> Can GCC automatically know that (x&4)>>1 and (x&4?2:0) is equivalent and optimize them into each other?
02:06:34 <zzo38> I find this and other bitwise manipulation is common in C programs I write.
02:07:21 <shachaf> You can find out what GCC optimizes particular code into easily enough.
02:09:11 <zzo38> It could be any integer type; but maybe some are different due to the CPU instruction set? I don't know.
02:13:06 <kmc> &4?2:0 mask bits everyday
02:14:27 <shachaf> kmc: btw have you considered that the halting problem exists and therefore all optimizers are pointless
02:15:08 <zzo38> That doesn't make optimizers pointless.
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02:15:33 <nooodl> i don't even see the connection :/
02:15:40 <nooodl> i mean i'm sure it's a joke, but
02:16:29 <zzo38> It might mean that perfect optimization isn't always necessarily possible for looping programs, though.
02:16:51 <kmc> it might (does) mean that
02:17:10 <mnoqy> clearly: dont use looping program
02:17:14 <kmc> shachaf: it's funny because this is how people talk about security?
02:17:56 <shachaf> well.....not completely sure about the "it's funny" part
02:18:22 <kmc> but you were making that reference?
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02:25:25 <shachaf> kmc: hm the new episodes of that show are coming out in ~1.5 weeks
02:26:16 <shachaf> should i watch them as they come out or wait until the end
02:26:37 <kmc> which show
02:27:05 <kmc> have you seen everything thus far
02:28:33 <kmc> I watched season 5 (I) as it came out and I feel good about my choice
02:28:52 <kmc> and I won't have the restraint to wait until 5 (II) is done to watch it, even if I wanted to
02:28:59 <kmc> and I want to watch with friends and discuss and such
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02:43:58 <zzo38> Should strcpy return the number of characters in the source string? I think it might be a useful thing for it to do.
02:44:45 -!- tswett has changed nick to Ocqueoc.
02:45:18 <zzo38> What is "Ocqueoc", though?
02:45:33 <Ocqueoc> Apparently it's a French word meaning "crooked waters".
02:45:45 <Ocqueoc> It's a stream in Presque Isle County.
02:45:53 <Ocqueoc> Which I'm sure all of you have heard of.
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02:58:35 <zzo38> What should be a algorithm to generete random UUID?
02:59:08 <Bike> 1) call the microsoft API function 2) done 3) forever
02:59:24 <zzo38> But the program will be cross-platform and not only Microsoft
02:59:53 <Bike> https://twitter.com/ProBirdRights
03:00:06 <oerjan> @tell olsner HackEgo cannot send private messages hth
03:00:36 <shachaf> oerjan: then what kinds of messages is it sending me
03:00:52 <Bike> particularly, https://twitter.com/ProBirdRights/status/342822403690352641
03:00:56 <oerjan> @tell olsner I mean, in response to public commands.
03:05:13 <oerjan> @tell boily I do not believe it is possible to experimentally distinguish extremely huge finite from infinite hth
03:07:51 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> the haskell weekly news only has a single quote. <-- and it's not even from #haskell!
03:08:38 <oerjan> @tell boily well, I assume. i'd be shocked if knuth showed up there.
03:09:04 <shachaf> 06:30:59 <sclv_> @remember knuth To help the reader drowning in a sea of abstraction, the following example may serve as a concrete life preserver
03:09:56 <Bike> knuth, noted computational gangster (frankenstein computer god)
03:09:59 <oerjan> it occurs me that making sea life preservers out of concrete isn't a very good idea.
03:10:34 <shachaf> depends on what kind of sea life you want to preserve
03:10:59 <oerjan> true. i guess if you want to feed the sharks...
03:11:00 <Bike> i bet osedax would be happy to have somewhere to root, insofar as they can feel happiness
03:11:43 <zzo38> I don't think a life preserver out of concrete would be good to feed the sharks or whatever else either
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03:21:49 <oerjan> wait roujo is here, is that my fault?
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03:27:11 <oerjan> wait, are we starting to have eerily many quebecois in the channel
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03:44:25 <oerjan> @tell fizzie Please ^save fungot, i fixed a bug in ^prefixes
03:44:25 <fungot> oerjan: it had all sorts of problems
03:44:40 <oerjan> fungot: oh it wasn't that bad, just a missing space
03:44:40 <fungot> oerjan: http://www.randsinrepose.com/ archives/ fnord/ fnord/ 06/ fnord
03:44:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
03:50:10 <oerjan> <elliott> java bot :'( <-- wat, jconn is J!
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03:55:58 <HackEgo> ursala ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
03:56:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/[^ ]* //' wisdom/ursala
03:56:39 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
03:57:19 <oerjan> maybe we should just remove `learn if people keep using it wrong.
03:58:31 <oerjan> also i think there was another broken one recently but i've forgotten which one.
03:58:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Instead of removing it, require the first character of the argument to be ^O.
03:58:45 <shachaf> That way only people who ""know the trick"" can use it.
03:58:52 <doesthiswork> today I learned something very strange. If I take coin from a uniform distribution of biased coins and flip it 3 times, 1/4th of the time it will come up with 3 heads
03:59:34 <Bike> doesthiswork: as in the distribution of the bias is uniform?
04:00:28 <oerjan> ouch, i think that may require a triple integral or something
04:01:21 <oerjan> ok if p is the probability of heads then p^3 is the probability of 3 heads
04:02:14 <oerjan> so \int_0^1 p^3 dp = p^4/4 |_0^1 = 1/4, yep
04:03:07 <doesthiswork> the probability of any given number of heads is 1/(n+1)
04:03:14 <Bike> yeah, that works with oerjan's fine.
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04:06:00 <doesthiswork> guess what the probability of 7 heads in 17 flips of a coin drawn from my collection
04:07:31 <oerjan> i like how people started welcoming Roujo just after he said he was off
04:08:30 <oerjan> doesthiswork: wait, don't you mean 17 heads hth
04:08:42 <Bike> it's just \int_0^1 p^7(1-p)^10 dp right
04:08:51 <oerjan> or wait, is it _any_ single number, huh
04:08:54 <doesthiswork> the number of heads doesn't matter, the probability is the same
04:09:55 <oerjan> except p^n(1-p)^(k-n) is harder to integrate in your head
04:09:55 <mnoqy> what's so surprising about it, imo
04:10:30 <Bike> oerjan: well it's pretty easy to see that it's going to be 0 for p=0 i think?
04:10:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo what was that thing you were saying about comma categories ages ago
04:10:54 <mnoqy> shachaf: just look up comma categories
04:11:02 <oerjan> Bike: we need the difference between 0 and 1
04:11:15 <mnoqy> shachaf: alt. look up whatever else you want to know about
04:11:22 <shachaf> mnoqy: yes, i just read about them. but why were you talking about them once
04:12:20 <shachaf> my memory is failing me :'(
04:12:22 <mnoqy> shachaf: because the formulation of free objects [and other things] i knew at the time was all about a comma instead of adjunction
04:12:39 <mnoqy> but the formulation in terms of adjunction is much nicer
04:12:59 <shachaf> aren't adjunctions great though
04:13:14 <shachaf> but i should understand the comma categories thing
04:13:50 <shachaf> you know how limits are adjoint to diagonal functors? p. great
04:14:21 <mnoqy> http://nlab.mathforge.org/nlab/show/comma+category comma categroy is pretty easy
04:15:11 <mnoqy> i "got to go" now though "have fun"
04:16:48 <Bike> wolfram says the integral involves hypergeometry. maybe it is not right
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04:27:21 <oerjan> well you can do it with binomials obviously but what a mess
04:28:13 <oerjan> p^k(1-p)^(n-k) = p^k + (n-k over 2)p^(k+1) + ... + p^n
04:29:27 <oerjan> 1/(k+1) + (n-k over 2)/(k+2) + ... + 1/(n+1)
04:30:22 <oerjan> and then you just have to show that's 1/(n-k+1) hth
04:30:34 <oerjan> (my brain cannot do that right now)
04:31:09 <oerjan> wait how can that be right
04:31:32 <oerjan> there's already a 1/(n+1) _before_ you add the rest
04:31:46 * oerjan probably messed up somewhere
04:34:14 <oerjan> oh wait no, it's bike's fault >:)
04:35:10 <oerjan> p^7(1-p)^10 isn't correct, you have to multiply by the number of possible orderings
04:43:52 <oerjan> <Fiora> "In reality, cats do possess the ability to turn themselves right side up in mid-air if they should fall upside-down [...] Toast, however, lacks both the ability and the desire to right itself." wikipedia has some of the most amazing quotes
04:44:30 <oerjan> i doubt they actually tested the toast's desire scientifically. there might be a hidden tragedy here.
04:44:56 <oerjan> see: intelligent calcium.
04:51:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> Maybe I can get oerjan to do it. <-- not a chance hth
04:52:16 <shachaf> oerjan: not even a chance equal to.........0?
04:53:06 <oerjan> shachaf: let's not go into quantum teleportation territory here twnh
05:01:20 <oerjan> <Ocqueoc> Apparently it's a French word meaning "crooked waters". <-- ok-dokey
05:06:09 <Bike> oerjan: so multiply by n!?
05:07:10 <Bike> oh wait, no. wow i'm bad imo
05:07:31 <shachaf> oerjan: as in https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.518647,-115.058205&spn=0.006668,0.016512 ?
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05:19:02 <oerjan> shachaf: nixon creek, sounds ominous
05:19:45 <Bike> hm, integral still looks nasty.
05:21:15 <oerjan> presumably there's some trick.
05:21:38 <oerjan> or more intuitive argument
05:26:02 <Bike> doesthiswork has abandoned us. we will never know the trick.
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05:49:13 <kmc> "I was attempting to convince someone that one of the appendices to Lord of the Rings just consists of Saruman attempting to teach LISP to the dwarves."
05:54:12 <Bike> ok somebody needs to help me understand this formula because it's bullshit
05:56:18 <Bike> say f is a function in a field extension with minimal polynomial p(f) = sum of r_n*f^n from n=0 in whatever field. then f' = (sum of r_n'*f^n from n=0)/(sum of n*f^(n-1) from n=1)
05:56:42 <Bike> and those ^ are multiplication. srry elliott
06:04:43 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_derivative fucking christ i'm doomed.
06:08:57 <olsner> oerjan: I didn't remember getting a public response at all to that command, so I thought it didn't work, but then you responded instead
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06:15:44 <Bike> good news i did some algebra that makes no sense and derived this somehow. fuck everything
06:16:22 <shachaf> that's how algebra works Bike.............
06:17:36 <Bike> no i mean i kind of went "what if i pretended that *five minutes of staring blankly at a wall in sleepy incomprehension* and then did algebra". i don't even know what the nonsensical pretendingness was
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06:45:37 <Bike> ok when i wake up give me an example of an uncomputable continuous function. thx
06:51:01 <fizzie> I think you can make one if you have an integrable uncomputable function.
06:53:35 <fizzie> oerjan: REQUEST ACKNOWLEDGED
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07:29:44 <shachaf> oerjan: when are you scheduling the next `olist update
07:30:02 <shachaf> it's been since sunday or something
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07:32:32 <shachaf> i was hoping for sooner than that
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07:53:03 <zzo38> Is IOCCC open now?
07:57:11 <zzo38> Why does the number of entries have a decimal point in it?
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08:05:40 -!- oerjan has set topic: Life's just a mood ring we're not allowed to see | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
08:10:38 <zzo38> Compare the IOCCC rules with Z-Comp rules. Some people say the Z-Comp rules are really convoluted. What is your opinion?
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08:25:10 <fizzie> IOCRC: The International Obfuscated Contest Rules Contest.
08:29:56 <zzo38> Are you going to make that too?
08:33:44 <fizzie> No. But it is logical.
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10:15:22 <zzo38> Is consciousness like the roundness of a sphere?
10:24:10 <zzo38> Although this sentence begins with the word "because", it is false. -- Douglas R Hofstadter
10:25:53 <zzo38> If the meanings of "true" and "false" were switched, then this sentence would not be false.
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10:50:07 <fizzie> I took this photo from the thing yesterday: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130802-assembly.jpg
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11:32:39 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Yes; just about to go back there.
11:33:01 <Lumpio-> Wonder if anyone else from here is
11:34:48 <fizzie> I've been blabbing about the event yesterday, and at least no-one admitted anything.
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11:37:24 <fizzie> Welp, time to hop on a bike (not Bike). ->
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11:42:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
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11:42:41 <elliott> (obviously a bot, IP doesn't match anyone in the channel, doesn't appear to do anything, can't keep its connection.)
11:42:54 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
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12:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> he also played someone in local hero apparently but i haven't seen that film in ages
12:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> well he's 'the favourite', with all the pinches of salt the term implies
12:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if there's any better evidence than the fevered imaginings of the autistic children bookies use to set the odds for things
12:20:21 <elliott> "Billie Piper, former Doctor’s assistant Rose Tyler, is the only woman listed by Paddy Power to take on the title role after it was rumoured earlier this week that an actress might be in the running."
12:20:27 <elliott> these predictions do not seem credible
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12:22:23 <elliott> nice to know the most likely way they'll shake up the expectations for the doctor is... casting an old white guy
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12:54:40 <boily> good orange morning!
12:56:54 <boily> we have experimental proof at our office that bananas are radioactive. we have this fruit delivery service, and the half-life of bananas is less than 200 kiloseconds.
12:59:33 <fizzie> boily: What do they decay to?
13:00:56 <boily> I think there are also some pear by-products, but observations are scarce and not experimentally supported.
13:00:59 <fizzie> Possibly you could derive some sort of banana-orange dating system out of it.
13:01:25 <boily> my colleagues are working on that. (no joke)
13:01:29 <Fiora> what happens if you have a pear of bananas?
13:01:32 <Fiora> how do you account for that?
13:02:11 <fizzie> Yay, a SIGGRAPH conference presentation.
13:02:41 <fizzie> (There's some former-Remedy current-NVidia-research guy.)
13:04:19 -!- nooodl has joined.
13:04:34 <boily> Fiora: we'll discuss this subject in a future paper.
13:04:40 <boily> fizzie: still assembling?
13:04:51 <fizzie> boily: I posted a photo.
13:05:12 <Roujo> I told my parent's that I met a fellow Montrealer on IRC
13:05:18 <Roujo> They asked what the channel topic was
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13:05:28 <fizzie> boily: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130802-assembly.jpg
13:05:44 <Roujo> I then had the hardest time explaining the point of making esoteric languages
13:05:55 <fizzie> (I have a feeling this presentation is going to be perhaps dumbed-down for the audience.)
13:06:03 <Roujo> "But why don't they just use Java or C++?"
13:06:15 -!- sacje has joined.
13:06:28 <boily> fizzie: oh, shiny!
13:07:30 <fizzie> boily: And think, every tiny point of light is a real, breathing human (hunched in front of a monitor).
13:07:59 <fizzie> (So far this presentation is just talking about what research is in general.)
13:08:02 <elliott> not quite. there are also finns
13:08:04 <Fiora> that looks huge and scary
13:08:34 <boily> Roujo: I work for a free software company. my parents are used to me doing weird stuff to computers and electronic parts :D
13:09:05 <Roujo> Well, so are mine =P
13:09:10 <Roujo> My father found it interesting
13:09:56 <boily> elliott: http://www.savoirfairelinux.com//
13:11:06 <Roujo> My mother was confused as to why one would try make their life harder on purpose =P
13:11:13 <Roujo> "Because they can" was my answer, really
13:11:32 <Roujo> "For fun, for the challenge"
13:12:01 <boily> and for outdoing others at bfjoust.
13:12:21 <Roujo> To be fair, I should have went with Shakespear of Chef, not Brainfuck and Malbolge
13:12:28 <fizzie> Roujo: "Because it was there" is the traditional why-climb-a-mountain answer.
13:12:37 <ion> What could possibly go wrong? http://youtu.be/lMuJKsUjD_o
13:14:05 <Roujo> Is that even possible?
13:28:07 <fizzie> Judgement for paper 1: fancy.
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13:30:18 <Roujo> elliott: Say I'd want to make an IRC bot in a language that you actually approve of. What would you suggest?
13:30:47 <elliott> um... Haskell is my go-to language for most things
13:32:15 <boily> Roujo: mine's in haskell.
13:32:55 <quintopia> elliott: do you approve of bots written in esolangs?
13:35:21 <boily> say, do we have a coffeescript bot here?
13:50:56 <fizzie> I also heard there was a "Cory Doctorow petting zoo" downstairs after his talk.
13:51:20 <fizzie> Don't know what that is like.
13:53:01 <quintopia> because no one wants to see cory doctorow give a talk?
13:53:57 <fizzie> I understand there was a reasonable audience.
13:54:25 <fizzie> From the lityle I heard, corruption in the government.
13:55:00 <quintopia> where are the papers you are judging
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13:57:44 <fizzie> https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/GMLT/
13:58:10 <fizzie> https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/FourierSVBRDF/
13:58:26 <fizzie> It was a two-in-one presentation.
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14:00:19 <fizzie> http://www.assembly.org/summer13/
14:01:27 <fizzie> (There's a set of seminars on various topics, presumably to offset all that gaming.)
14:04:19 <fizzie> They have a separate channel for the seminars.
14:04:38 <fizzie> Not sure if there's anything interesting coming up.
14:05:28 <fizzie> The main themes are graphics/game-related programmering and game0development businessy things.
14:05:55 <fizzie> (Maybe most the business talks were yesterday.)
14:08:43 <fizzie> And this fast music competition (as usual) kind of has too many entries.
14:08:58 <fizzie> They're in like #19 now.
14:09:24 <fizzie> I've forgotten 80% of these before I can get to the voting page.
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14:52:22 <Roujo> Is assembly considered an esoteric language? =P
14:52:42 <Roujo> Because I did make a virtual CPU that can run opcodes that kind of look like assembly
14:53:41 <Roujo> Then again, I implemented *that* in Java
14:55:26 <fizzie> There are some esolangs that are designed to look like weird hardware architectures.
14:55:27 <Taneb> Check out Checkout
14:55:50 <fizzie> And, uh... jump to ByteByteJump, or whatever it was called.
14:57:01 <boily> risk your sanity on OISC.
14:57:02 <Fiora> I'm not sur if assembly is esoteric but it's fun!
14:57:15 <fizzie> (And BytePusher, which is the machine around ByteByteJump.)
15:02:42 <fizzie> There certainly seems to be some overlap between esolangers and... assemblers... er, that's not the term.
15:02:57 -!- metasepia has joined.
15:03:06 <boily> the thing I can't seem to find in Montréal.
15:03:25 <fizzie> Fiora's not over assembly.
15:03:26 <boily> ~duck surströmming
15:03:33 <boily> ~duck fermented fish
15:03:33 <metasepia> Fermented fish is a traditional preparation of fish.
15:03:45 <fizzie> (And ducks don't eat fermented fish.)
15:05:00 <Roujo> I am not a duck, unfortunately
15:05:16 <Fiora> fizzie: um, what constitutes being over it
15:06:18 <boily> is there any hexhamite logged on? I wonder if two canadians meeting IRL will cause the same kind of apocalypse as two hexhamers joining?
15:06:56 <Fiora> elliott is from hexham I think
15:07:01 <Fiora> sorry, it was just a typo
15:07:17 <fizzie> Fiora: No, it definitely had some deeper meaning.
15:08:04 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
15:08:22 <fizzie> Do take that one level deeper.
15:08:24 <elliott> boily: I would have to disadvise the meeting based on my measurements and predictions
15:08:30 <elliott> but I suspect it would not destroy the entire earth
15:08:46 <Roujo> boily: Do you play Ingress by any chance?
15:13:10 <fizzie> Bah, why doesn't this thing do 5 GHz wiffery.
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15:14:33 <boily> I was supposed to get my Ouya Wednesday, but UPS screwed up, and it very probably got stolen.
15:14:41 <boily> now I have to wait for Amazon to send me a replacement.
15:16:20 <fizzie> What did they put in the Ouya? Some Tegra thing?
15:16:22 <boily> I phoned them twice, and if I still haven't got anything by next Friday, then I'll have a new one. (delivered to the office. not getting fooled twice over this.)
15:16:32 <boily> a very shiny tegra 3.
15:16:53 <boily> next model will have a tegra 4, but it's not confirmed and there is some speculation that they may even upgrade to a 5.
15:16:53 <fizzie> How do the shiny Tegra 3 and a matte Tegra 3 differ?
15:17:10 <fizzie> There's a Tegra 3 in this tablet, but I think it's a bit duller.
15:17:13 <boily> it is more feng shui.
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15:31:10 <fizzie> This (Bluetooth mini-)keyboard turns itself off when one closes the cover... and apparently also when the cover is too near even if not closed. (Instructions warn against keeping it close to the keyboard.)
15:31:28 <fizzie> Makes me wonder what kind of a magic it uses to sense the cover nearby.
15:32:47 <boily> assymetrical warp matrix, but newer models use and inverted quantum variance.
15:33:39 <boily> (gotta love online technobabble generators :D)
15:57:13 <HackEgo> olist (907): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
16:06:03 <kmc> hmm I got a false highlight in another channel because someone's shortened URL happened to contain "kmc"
16:06:06 <kmc> wonder why that hasn't happened before
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16:13:44 <Bike> just train in general?
16:13:45 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
16:14:46 <john_metcalf> No. A specific train. It's running 6 minutes late :-(
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16:19:24 <john_metcalf> In Cambridge. Visited The Centre for Computing History today...
16:19:45 -!- Vorpal has joined.
16:21:09 <Vorpal> I am utterly confused, unbound is returned NXDOMAIN for everything on my RPi. The local unbound on my desktop works just fine.
16:21:11 <Vorpal> With everything I mean EVERYTHING, including the root servers
16:21:37 <kmc> hacked by chinese
16:22:28 <Vorpal> I switched it over to 8.8.8.8 for now while figuring this out
16:24:56 <Vorpal> It seems to report everything in the cache though...?
16:25:05 <Vorpal> when I ask it to dump the cache I mean
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16:25:18 <Gregor> <kmc> hmm I got a false highlight in another channel because someone's shortened URL happened to contain "kmc" <kmc> wonder why that hasn't happened before // because 26^3 = 17576
16:25:24 <shachaf> there's an `olist at the end of the logs hth
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16:27:30 <kmc> Gregor: but I see like a hundred shortened URLs per day
16:27:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, probably more, digits tends to be common in URL shortening too
16:28:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yeah, this was in the most optimistic assumption.
16:29:20 <Vorpal> What the fuck, "dig" returns the IP for example.com from the local unbound but "host" returns NXDOMAIN
16:29:24 <Vorpal> this is making no sense
16:30:54 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> well he's 'the favourite', with all the pinches of salt the term implies <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if there's any better evidence than the fevered imaginings of the autistic children bookies use to set the odds for things
16:30:57 <HackEgo> 1080) <Phantom_Hoover> well he's 'the favourite', with all the pinches of salt the term implies <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if there's any better evidence than the fevered imaginings of the autistic children bookies use to set the odds for things
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16:35:39 <ion> An example program that demonstrates how to create commits using Git plumbing https://github.com/ion1/git-plumbing-create-commit
16:38:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> Roujo: "Because it was there" is the traditional why-climb-a-mountain answer. <-- the original guy _did_ die on mount everest hth
16:38:59 <Vorpal> And now it randomly started working again
16:40:11 <Bike> seeing mallory's corpse is p. weird
16:45:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a vague feeling that "dig" is explicitly DNS-only, while "host" might follow the general name-resolution rules.
16:45:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: I mean, as a general comment on how they might differ; of course if you've only got DNS configured...
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16:50:11 <Roujo> oerjan: Well crap =P
16:50:30 <Roujo> Did anyone die programming in an esoteric language?
16:50:40 <Roujo> Better yet, does going insane count?
16:51:02 <fizzie> There are certainly dead esoteric language programmers.
16:51:31 <fizzie> The causal relationship is not entirely clear, because there are also dead people that were not esolangers.
16:52:26 <Roujo> I think most dead people were esolangers
16:52:38 <Roujo> At one point or another, anyway
16:52:59 <Roujo> For a very vague and large definition of esolang
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16:57:25 <Roujo> I think I am, yeah
16:57:42 <Roujo> Remember that one time, at college? The mirror thing?
16:58:02 <Roujo> Jonathan, Nathan, it's all the same anyway
17:00:12 <Roujo> It's like a co-processor
17:02:01 <elliott> I think you'll find it's the dual of Nathan
17:02:23 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg help
17:02:32 <fizzie> And a 80387 is a dual of 80386.
17:05:31 -!- mnoqy has joined.
17:06:51 <ion> 80387 is also cop̈rime to 80386.
17:07:40 <Bike> hey, it really is, nice.
17:08:17 <ion> Oh, so it seems. I thought i was talking out of my ass.
17:08:19 <kmc> n+1 is usually coprime to n isn't it?
17:09:31 <fizzie> Oh, 80387 is also just plain prime.
17:10:30 <fizzie> I concur: 80387 is prime for all n.
17:11:20 <ion> exists m. 80387 is a prime
17:11:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a vague feeling that "dig" is explicitly DNS-only, while "host" might follow the general name-resolution rules.
17:11:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: I mean, as a general comment on how they might differ; of course if you've only got DNS configured...
17:11:56 <Vorpal> What other than dns and the host file is there?
17:12:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what on earth is NIS?
17:12:25 <ion> The default “hosts” line on my system: hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns4
17:12:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: LDAP-based host resolution too, I think.
17:12:29 <Vorpal> I seen that term before
17:12:34 <ion> And i’m not even using NIS/LDAP/something
17:12:38 <fizzie> Network Information Something.
17:13:17 <fizzie> There's also a NIS+, IIRC.
17:13:21 <Vorpal> ion, mine just lists localhost for ipv4 and ipv6. Oh and the actual host name as well
17:13:38 <ion> vorpal: Not /etc/hosts, the hosts line in nsswitch.conf
17:14:25 <Vorpal> My desktop has this though:
17:14:27 <Vorpal> hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns4
17:14:41 <fizzie> Multicast DNS, presumably.
17:14:45 <ion> mdns is a Good Thing™ especially on desktop computers.
17:15:43 <Vorpal> ion, oh? what is it used for?
17:16:07 <ion> That’s how your computers see each other by <hostname>.local without any special setup.
17:17:42 <ion> There’s a published RFC for it, and OSX and many Linux desktop systems use it by default. Also many peripherals such as HP printers. Microsoft of course doesn’t support it, but Apple provides an implementation for Windows.
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17:26:02 <fizzie> ion: IMO you're just lazy if you don't have proper DNS for everything that could conceivably have an IP address.
17:26:47 <ion> Yes, i’m lazy and proud of it. I don’t want to do extra work for something i can get for free.
17:27:36 <ion> My DNS server doesn’t really need to know or care about the hosts i happen to have in my internal network.
17:28:26 <ion> They can inform each other about their hostnames just fine.
17:29:35 <fizzie> Just "install this extra blob into your Windows" "and what about this appliance with no firmware upgrades" fine.
17:30:10 <fizzie> Also you're depriving your DNS server of its entire reason for existence hth
17:36:56 <kmc> &'static [&'static str] // what a beautiful type
17:37:18 <kmc> shachaf: I think Rust should use Unicode superscript characters for lifetimes
17:38:19 <Roujo> Oooooh, someone with voice =3
17:38:20 <Vorpal> ion, Not really useful for me I think
17:39:15 <shachaf> mnoqy doesn't need to be superscripted
17:43:10 <fizzie> Huh. An ad for the PadfoneInfinity on the big screen.
17:43:21 <fizzie> Guess those sponsors have their demands.
17:45:38 <fizzie> It's some Asus dockable phone thing.
17:45:50 <fizzie> Tablet, and a phone that slots in it.
17:45:55 <fizzie> Or that's what it looked like anyway.
17:46:24 <Vorpal> Heh, should be three steps, with a so called "phablet" as a middle step
17:48:40 <fizzie> Apparently, for technical accuracy: Padfone Infinity is the phone, and you slot it into a Padfone Infinity Station, which is completely optional.
17:48:46 <fizzie> Also the cheesiest Asus laptop ad ever.
17:48:59 <fizzie> "We sent you this device back in time so you can save the world."
17:49:49 <Roujo> >implying the phone is from the future
17:49:59 <fizzie> Roujo: The laptop (another ad).
17:50:07 <Vorpal> I understand that, it was just a "what" of disbelief
17:50:09 <Roujo> Every phone that's not released yet is IN the future
17:50:21 <fizzie> I think it was an ad for a released laptop.
17:50:21 <Roujo> So when it's actually released, it's probably FROM the future
17:50:48 <fizzie> Well, in that sense everything (that has not existed since the beginning of time) is from the future.
17:51:08 <Roujo> Then are we from the future?
17:51:14 <fizzie> Heh, the Infinity Station has a 1080p 10.1" screen, while the phone side has a... 1080p screen too, except it's 5".
17:51:50 <Roujo> I once asked someone to pronounce 1080 Ps
17:51:58 <Roujo> He didn't get it, unfortunately
17:52:49 <fizzie> For some reason it's always "ten-eighty" and not "one-thousand-eighty".
17:52:58 <fizzie> (Well, okay, the "some reason" is quite clear.)
17:53:28 <Roujo> In French it's not
17:53:45 <Roujo> Which is a bit of a shame, really
17:54:01 <Roujo> I'm rooting for 10.8 hundred p
17:54:53 <fizzie> ...French. Aren't you the guys with the four-times-twenty stuff?
17:55:12 <fizzie> And/or some assorted irregularities.
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17:55:24 <fizzie> (I did German in school, I've just heard of it.)
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17:57:56 <shachaf> Bike: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/08/01/future-https-wikimedia-projects/
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18:12:30 <boily> fizzie: yes, we have «quatre-vingts» for 80. perfectly logical.
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18:14:43 <zzo38> Someone said, to one person, God looks like a human; to another person, God looks like a flower; etc. What is your opinion about this?
18:15:04 <boily> that humans have more proteins than flowers.
18:15:41 <zzo38> OK, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.
18:17:35 <fizzie> boily: But it wasn't a 20-based system for 40 or something like that, right?
18:17:49 <Bike> are you sure? flowers are pretty protein-tastic
18:18:15 <Bike> "IΔ0, arithmetic with induction on Δ0-predicates without any axiom asserting that exponentiation is total" hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
18:18:40 <Bike> if you add such an axiom the proof-theoretic ordinal is a power higher, gosh!
18:18:57 <elliott> Bike: I linked you that thing right.
18:19:26 <Bike> turns out i'm "bad at reverse mathematics"
18:19:45 <Bike> If you mean "warning" then yes that's why I mentioned that arithmetic here.
18:20:09 <Bike> i don't know how i got to this. i was looking at differential algebra a second ago
18:20:22 <Bike> "MLM, an extension of Martin-Löf type theory by one Mahlo-universe, has an even larger proof theoretic ordinal ψΩ1(ΩM + ω)." imo this field is too greek
18:20:34 <boily> fizzie: it's vigesimal for 60, 70, 80, 90 in metropolitan and Québec French, but decimal for everything in Swiss and Belgian French.
18:20:49 <fizzie> boily: "Perfectly logical."
18:21:03 * elliott hugs Bike to distract him from the greek letters, but little does he know that I myself am a long-forgotten member of the greek alphabet
18:21:03 <Bike> "Most theories capable of describing the power set of the natural numbers have proof theoretic ordinals that are so large that no explicit combinatorial description has yet (as of 2008) been given." nice
18:21:29 <Bike> i already lost my sister digamma to you ;~;
18:22:01 <Bike> "A single muscle's multifunctional control potential of body dynamics for postural control and running" wow i bet this hardly has anything to do with ordinals at all
18:24:41 <kmc> i saw an ad for the new Nokia Lumia phone with a 41 megapixel camera
18:25:14 <Bike> "The reason that reverse mathematics is not carried out using set theory as a base system is that the language of set theory is too expressive." oh no
18:25:22 <kmc> which is just like....... why
18:25:49 <Bike> i thought they'd given up on the "megapixel" thing by now
18:25:51 <kmc> nobody needs that many pixels
18:25:54 <kmc> yeah me too
18:26:05 <kmc> just like we gave up on processors having OMG SO MANY GHZ
18:26:07 <Bike> "In order of increasing strength, these systems are named by the initialisms RCA0, WKL0, ACA0, ATR0, and Π11-CA0." also like, seriously
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18:26:44 <oerjan> how many of those are also drug names, kmc
18:26:57 <Bike> how is Π11-CA0 (or well Π^1_1-CA_0) a useful name. it sounds like something spraypainted on a concrete wall in an abandoned military complex
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18:29:12 <kmc> Bike: you should go to Thessaloniki and admire the anti-fascist graffiti
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18:29:33 <Roujo> <+kmc> nobody needs that many pixels
18:29:37 <Roujo> They said that about memory
18:29:53 <Bike> i dunno if i want to go to greece right now, given the well, fascists.
18:29:57 <Roujo> And yet here we are
18:31:18 <elliott> Bike: the anti-fascist graffiti will protect you. that's what it's there for
18:31:27 <elliott> otherwise they wouldn't call it anti-fascist
18:31:41 <oerjan> Bike: erm the fascist regime fell in the 70's or thereabouts hth
18:32:02 <Bike> have you not heard of golden dawn
18:32:29 <Bike> have you not heard wondrous quotes like "Not being racist is in Greeks' DNA"
18:33:05 <elliott> that statement... has its own internal beauty
18:33:07 <oerjan> ...that _is_ a wondrous quote.
18:34:16 <Roujo> Depends on the Bicycle, I'd guess
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18:34:20 <Roujo> And what you did to it beforehand
18:34:41 <oerjan> everyone knows dna cannot produce things with wheels, duh
18:34:50 <Bike> unless those things are flagella.
18:34:56 <fizzie> kmc: You can do things with the pixels, is I think the official line. I mean, by default (AIUI) it takes a full-resolution image (for non-information-destroying zoom and whatnot), and a five-megapixel picture (for sharing and actual use).
18:34:56 <Bike> (bikes are not flagella)
18:35:21 <kmc> I think it's mostly a signifier that this is an expensive camera and has good optics etc
18:35:43 <Bike> oh, that reminds me. ~biology meme~ http://imgur.com/T8cXoyN
18:37:10 <elliott> fizzie: wait, what is the difference between an image and a picture.
18:37:10 <fizzie> Ongoing seminar on the right: history of web-browser demos.
18:37:16 <oerjan> cutest protein i've seen yet
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18:37:42 <fizzie> elliott: I don't think I wanted to make any difference there.
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18:41:00 <Roujo> I have no idea what's going on and I love it =P
18:41:19 <Roujo> Holy mother of hosts
18:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> aiui it's a cellular transportation mechanism which consists of tying a bag of stuff to a set of little cell-sized legs
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19:00:37 <doesthiswork> is there any deterministic program that it has been proven that you can't prove that it halts or doesn't halt? (also well specified enough that it can be written down)
19:03:07 <boily> if it's deterministic, you can deduce any subsequent state, starting from the first one, and progressing until the end.
19:03:13 <oerjan> doesthiswork: if a program halts, you can prove it. thus any prove that you _cannot_ prove it halts is a proof that it doesn't halt.
19:05:21 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: kinesin
19:06:04 <zzo38> Yes, it halts if and only if there is a proof that it halts (even if nobody knows what this proof is, because it is too long or whatever), and I have made up a sequent calculus of Turing machine, which might be relevant but I don't know for sure.
19:06:26 <elliott> oerjan: does that hold with all the subtleties of nonstandard models and independent statements and stuff?
19:06:41 <elliott> oerjan: as in, if you prove there cannot be a proof that a program halts in ZFC, I don't immediately see that there must be a proof it doesn't halt in ZFC
19:07:16 <oerjan> argh mixing metalevels
19:07:28 <Bike> "shouldn't you be using hott........"
19:07:58 <doesthiswork> you can prove that a program halts by running it. So you prove that doesn't work, it doesn't halt
19:08:01 <oerjan> if a program halts in the "intended model" of the natural numbers, then it can be proved to halt in any reasonable logic.
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19:08:22 <zzo38> I don't think nonstandard models describe Turing machines.
19:08:23 <oerjan> of course "the intended model" is the one without any nonstandard elements.
19:08:57 <elliott> oerjan: well I think meta-levels inherently get tangled when the question is being unable to prove things :P
19:09:32 <oerjan> elliott: however, zzo38's "it halts if and only if there is a proof that it halts" does have the problem you are thinking of, i think
19:10:56 <oerjan> but i don't think my arguments requires anything more than having the right intended model and a logic which is true for it.
19:13:59 <metasepia> CYUL 021900Z 25017KT 30SM SCT040 BKN240 24/15 A2976 RMK CU4CI3 SLP076 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
19:14:09 <Bike> yeah i don't think i get it intuitively either
19:14:21 <Bike> like sure there's no halting recognizer but you can still show a program doesn't halt, what's the deal
19:15:15 <zzo38> Well, actually, I thought of something, maybe in the Turing machine sequent calculus, maybe you can have a nonstandard set of propositions next to the turnstile...
19:15:23 <elliott> well it's quite easy to imagine showing for(;;); doesn't halt, surely
19:15:30 <Bike> yeah, obviously
19:15:34 <zzo38> But then it isn't a standard Turing machine.
19:16:25 <Bike> but like, so any plan you come up with to show an arbitrary program+input halts has to not work for some subset of programs+inputs?
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19:16:58 <oerjan> yes, and moreover you can construct the counterexample easily from the plan
19:17:02 <Bike> it's super basic but i don't get it.
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19:17:13 <Bike> right, you just incorporate the recognizer
19:17:22 <zzo38> In this system, a Turing machine that halts is a theorem. If it is deterministic (so there is no way you have any choice what rule to follow or substitutions in the rule), and then you get to a same state as before, then you can know it isn't halting, although you see that from outside of the system, and not all non-halting Turing machines will be like this anyways.
19:20:04 <oerjan> zzo38: basically, any consistent logic for deciding whether a turing machine halts and which is strong enough to contain explicit simulation, will only fail on non-halting machines.
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19:20:25 <doesthiswork> (\x. x x x) (\y. y y y) is one example of a program that doesn't halt but never repeats states
19:21:49 <oerjan> that was the example i used in my underload minimization section to show :()^ couldn't be trivially decided.
19:22:00 <oerjan> (of course in the end it ended up being fully TC)
19:22:54 <fungot> doesthiswork: et tu!!!
19:23:03 <oerjan> ...Bike hasn't seen underload before?
19:24:40 <Bike> «This name is used because RCA0 corresponds informally to "computable mathematics". In particular, any set of natural numbers that can be proven to exist in RCA0 is computable, and thus any theorem which implies that noncomputable sets exist is not provable in RCA0[...] The classical theorems provable in RCA0 include: The intermediate value theorem on continuous real functions» v. nice
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19:25:55 <Bike> but not «If G is a connected graph with infinitely many vertices such that every vertex has finite degree (that is, each vertex is adjacent to only finitely many other vertices) then G contains an infinitely long simple path, that is, a path with no repeated vertices» so fuck.
19:29:35 <zzo38> oerjan: Ah, yes I suppose you are correct about that logic but even if it is not consistent, then everything is true even false things are true, so "consistent" isn't needed there. But, if it doesn't have explicit simulation then I think it isn't a Turing machine, isn't it?
19:32:24 <Bike> i should do something else. figure out the complexity class of a nematode.
19:34:38 <boily> are there any edible nematodes?
19:34:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
19:35:09 <Bike> in that much food has nematodes in it, if nothing else :3
19:36:32 <Bike> i guess they're pretty small, it'd be like edible alga
19:37:51 <boily> «purée de nématode sur craquelins de froment.» maybe there's some money to make out of that.
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19:38:16 <boily> people will eat anything if it's labelled as haute cuisine.
19:38:19 <Bike> everything sounds delicious in french
19:38:37 <boily> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2019612,00.html
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19:41:20 <boily> snail eggs: http://www.france-caviar.com/perles-de-france--caviar-d-escargot
19:42:02 <boily> lambdabot is on ipv6!
19:42:30 <Bike> boily: this is pretty good
19:42:40 <boily> Bike: you tasted them?
19:42:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Edible_algae
19:42:47 <kmc> I laser cut some seaweed once
19:42:52 <Bike> bite me kmc ;_;
19:43:07 <Bike> yes i got the plural wrong sorry
19:43:22 <elliott> requesting pics of kmc biting Bike if and when such an event occurs
19:43:24 <kmc> oh I didn't notice / care
19:43:29 <kmc> elliott: :3
19:44:34 <Roujo> boily: Do you know if Teksavvy provides IPv6?
19:45:19 <boily> looks like so: http://teksavvy.com/ipv6
19:45:36 <Roujo> I thought they would
19:45:44 <Roujo> Since they're, you know, pretty tech-savvy
19:45:51 <Roujo> They host one of Coldfront's IRC servers
19:46:29 <boily> I'm with electronic box at home. I don't know who we are wired with at work, but it's all ipv6.
19:46:31 <Roujo> >we welcome you to join us in our IPv6 on DSL Beta program.
19:46:35 <Roujo> >our IPv6 on DSL Beta program.
19:58:54 <kmc> heh, Rust floats have a .approx_eq() method which is hardcoded to an epsilon of 1e-6
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20:01:08 <elliott> sounds better than everyone just using ==
20:01:16 <Bike> i was explaining floats to somebody yesterday
20:01:36 <kmc> yeah if your application is sensitive to the exact epsilon, don't use .approx_eq() imo
20:01:40 <Bike> they had somehow gotten the impression that .48799912 (the number, not the float) was "illogical" because if you had the same digit twice in a row it had to go on forever
20:01:50 <kmc> but like... 1e-6 matches pretty well what most people would expect of "approx"
20:01:58 <elliott> Bike: are you sure you were *just* explaining floats here
20:02:06 <elliott> sounds like you were also explaining the rationals :P
20:02:08 <kmc> floats and/or maths
20:02:15 <Bike> yeah i started by explaining math
20:02:21 <Bike> it was an odd experience because like, what
20:02:36 <kmc> product of american public school system?
20:02:39 <elliott> similarly 11 should go on forever, as in the p-adic ...111111
20:02:49 <Bike> from what i could tell they were extremely confused by how they learned long division in school, yeah
20:03:03 <Bike> pretty sure i got them past that though, and on to "what the fuck are floats"
20:03:11 <elliott> I have no idea how to do long division
20:03:14 <kmc> floats are the worst is what they are
20:03:19 <kmc> is this person a programmer?
20:03:28 <kmc> elliott: I didn't understand long division until I learned how to do it with polynomials
20:03:39 <kmc> really? haha awesome
20:03:42 <kmc> but now I've forgotten that too, of course
20:04:04 <Bike> well, it's because taocp is very vehement about it, and polynomials and positional numbers being basically the same
20:04:13 <elliott> I also forget how to do short division and also every other mental arithmetic thing ever
20:04:21 <kmc> oh you're a taocp person
20:04:25 <elliott> thankfully I have invested in a computer to perform these tasks on my behalf
20:04:45 <Bike> what's a taocp person. am i bad :(
20:06:09 <boily> Bike: The Art of Computer Programming.
20:06:36 <kmc> you're not bad
20:07:57 <boily> is there anybody on #esoteric who's bad?
20:09:20 <Bike> taocp is just interesting even if knuth's idea of computer programming is often super alien to anything i have ever done with a computer
20:11:19 <boily> `learn Roujo is a Java heretic. He also claims to be Canadian. As per the Hexham treaty, he mustn't meet boily lest the Universe be destroyed.
20:11:50 <Bike> plus there's cool stuff like the in-depth analysis of the running time of euclid's algorithm
20:11:53 <Bike> it's "pretty weird"
20:11:57 <boily> (but nothing is said about me not meeting him. mwah ah ah.)
20:12:10 <kmc> does the Hexham treaty only apply to Commonwealth countries?
20:12:30 <boily> probably. do we have a member living in Asia or Africa?
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20:12:56 <Roujo> ~duck Hexham treaty
20:13:05 <Bike> i thought we had at least one south african
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20:13:29 <kmc> itidus lives in .au or .nz or something
20:14:38 <boily> thanks for two new entries :D
20:14:44 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Euclidean_algorithm_running_time_X_Y.png #blaze it
20:14:50 <Fiora> is this for the esoteric center of mas thing?
20:15:21 <Taneb> I believe itidus was Victorian?
20:15:37 <Bike> the center of mass is about a foot to my left, because i am made of depleted uranium
20:15:40 * boily adopts a very Mr. Burns-ish pose
20:15:47 <Roujo> The mass and coordinates thing
20:15:56 <Fiora> what's the center of mass currently?
20:16:22 <boily> not enough points we UNDESTANDABLE COÖRDINATES, YOU UNCOÖPERATIVE MNOKEYS!
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20:16:40 <boily> damned small words.
20:16:52 <quintopia> oh so that's why boily was asking for my loaction and weight. i never guessed it was for a centroid calculation
20:16:56 <Bike> shouldn't it be "ekomnsy"
20:17:19 <quintopia> nonetheless, it is a useless exercise at the moment, as I have been moving north slowly for 4.5 months, so the centroid would be rather erratic
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20:18:03 <boily> quintopia: so yeah. can I please get your (probably very approximate) loäction and body weigh?
20:18:26 <Roujo> What's with the trémas? =P
20:18:31 <quintopia> also my weight has dropped around 40lbs. in the last 4.5 months
20:19:02 <Bike> wow way to fuck everything up quintopia
20:19:06 <quintopia> right now i am loacted in newton, ma, and that is a very temporary condition
20:19:07 <Roujo> boily: You should probably just ship biometric chips to all of us
20:19:19 <boily> quintopia: are you describing an homotetic transformation in space-time?
20:19:39 <quintopia> i am describing this computer dying and me not knowing the location of the power cable
20:19:43 <boily> Roujo: ooooooh! a very elliotty idea!
20:19:58 <boily> quintopia: thanks!
20:20:01 <kmc> Bike: that's a pretty graph
20:20:06 <Roujo> Time to take the bus!
20:20:16 <kmc> what's STM here
20:20:26 <Roujo> Société de Transport de Montréal
20:20:42 <Bike> i find that most things having to do with primes are either pretty or infuriating or boring or two of the above
20:20:53 * kmc needs to update his coördinates
20:21:07 <Fiora> can a biometric chip know your weight?
20:21:16 <boily> kmc: buses and metro. or not. sometimes they exist, sometimes they arrive late, sometimes they crash, sometimes they don't work... it's an adventure!
20:21:20 <Bike> "This result suffices to show that the number of steps in Euclid's algorithm can never be more than five times the number of its digits (base 10)" just, everything goes crazy
20:21:50 <Bike> well i guess that's just log actually
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20:24:25 <boily> ah! another victim^Wexemplary member of our fine community!
20:25:02 <Bike> "To make this book less expensive, I did all of the typesetting myself, and I refused royalties."
20:25:15 <boily> FreeFull: sorry if I ever asked you the The Question before, but it is of utmost importance that you answer it, or we may have to implant cybernetics into your body in a forceful manner. what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
20:26:32 <kmc> right now I'm at 37.78947,-122.38912 but I sleep at about 37.75009,-122.40922
20:27:22 <Bike> http://www.math.psu.edu/simpson/sosoa/promo.html i like how dorky this is
20:27:27 <boily> fizzie: no need for that. I'm not planning for ICBMs yet.
20:27:33 <Bike> promotional material: mentioning it on a mailing list
20:27:39 <shachaf> kmc: in my experience you sleep at ~midnight-1am or so
20:27:53 <shachaf> (actually i have no idea when you sleep)
20:29:07 <kmc> fizzie: My phone says -80 feet MSL which seems... wrong
20:29:19 <FreeFull> boily: 0,4,1,5,182 and 482 megaluns
20:29:25 <kmc> because a) I can see the bay from here, and b) I am not currently underwater
20:29:54 <zzo38> If you can make a game about "Merciful to gibbering mouther and the other monsters" (or another theme, at your option) and it will run in the Z-machine VM (other than version 6), and can complete at least a playable preview (if not the whole game) by the end of September, then please try to enter Z-Comp.
20:29:54 <Bike> are you sure that the tide isn't really far out
20:30:37 <Bike> hey shachaf didn't you have a pdf of "Mathematics Made Difficult"
20:30:56 <Bike> i just read "ludicrously over-complicated proofs of the infinitude of primes (e.g., putting a topology on the naturals, etc.)" and am staring at it
20:31:16 <fizzie> kmc: Perhaps you're just so underground, conceptually.
20:31:30 <kmc> fizzie: my actual elevation is maybe 140 ft MSL
20:31:41 <kmc> assuming I know what various terms mean, which I might not
20:32:20 <fizzie> Based on the Wikipedia acronym page, that seems to mean 140 feet from the Mars Science Laboratory.
20:32:31 <Bike> mean sea level, i'm assuming
20:32:47 <Bike> possibly median sea level???
20:32:53 <boily> mean sea level. ON MARS!
20:33:08 <Fiora> I think someone being on mars might skew the centroid a little bit
20:33:11 <boily> but yeah. what's a megalun?
20:33:26 <Bike> is the mars science laboratory on mars
20:33:31 <Bike> i feel it might be deceptively named
20:33:36 <boily> Fiora: that's why it is of vital importance that I collect all these stats.
20:33:55 <fizzie> Bike: It's the name for the mission Curiosity is doing.
20:33:55 <Fiora> I think it's probably safe to assume everyone is on earth?
20:34:04 <fizzie> Bike: I guess you could argue it doesn't have a well-defined location.
20:34:19 <Bike> I guess space drones are pretty laboritorical
20:35:02 <boily> fungot, what is a megalun?
20:35:03 <fungot> boily: as well as development. i had a collision there are
20:35:27 <Bike> http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/1stbday/ wow nasa's sight is good
20:35:30 <fizzie> boily: I think it's what you get when you have a million SCSI devices in a chain.
20:35:33 <Bike> site. look at that background
20:35:42 <fizzie> (They all need a unique LUN (logical unit number).)
20:35:43 <elliott> boily: Fiora: hate to burst your bubble but I'm actually in Hexham, Alpha Centauri
20:36:03 <Fiora> how am I talking with you!!
20:36:22 <elliott> well, light is actually way faster than you think it is.
20:36:24 <Bike> elliott just predicts your messages a few hours in advance
20:36:27 <elliott> we just slow it down for humans because they're not yet ready.
20:36:30 <Bike> or however long the distance is
20:36:46 <elliott> it's also like that Doctor Who episode.
20:36:52 <Bike> yeah that one.
20:37:25 <elliott> are we thinking of the same one here
20:37:29 <elliott> (valid answers: "yes", "no")
20:37:30 <zzo38> Slow it down for humans because they are not ready? That doesn't make a lot of sense... (unless you mean something slightly different instead)
20:37:37 <Bike> i've never seen a doctor who episode.
20:38:15 <boily> `learn megalun is a chain of a million SCSI devices. FreeFull weighs 482 of them.
20:38:34 <Fiora> @google A Slower Speed of Light
20:38:35 <lambdabot> http://gamelab.mit.edu/games/a-slower-speed-of-light/
20:38:36 <lambdabot> Title: A Slower Speed of Light | MIT Game Lab
20:40:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
20:40:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21998
20:40:40 <Fiora> I'm still trying to figure out how you could measure someone's weight with a bio implant
20:41:00 <Bike> maybe it correlates with levels of whatever chemicals in the blood
20:41:47 <elliott> Bike: it's probably the one doctor who episode people who have never seen a doctor who episode are likely to see!
20:42:11 <elliott> Fiora: just make the implant weigh, like, a billion kilograms.
20:42:22 <elliott> and then you can measure the person's weight as a billion kilograms to very high precision.
20:42:32 <boily> Fiora: what if you put the implant underneath the foot, and use it as a regular piezoelectric?
20:42:58 <Fiora> that... I guess that could work, wow
20:43:20 <Bike> the force would vary though.
20:43:57 <Bike> for example i'd become a good deal "heavier" when doing jumping jacks, as bikes do to stay fit
20:47:19 <elliott> Bike. you don't even have a foot.
20:47:51 <Bike> do i not bleed? can i not jack??
20:48:05 <FreeFull> The best way to weight someone is to put them deep into intergalactic space
20:48:08 <FreeFull> Then they don't have any weight
20:50:18 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills
20:52:52 <boily> Bike is a prime number with no foot, who jacks piezoelectrics made of neutronium? I fear I'm having a serious case of sanity slippage...
20:56:31 <kmc> http://man.he.net/man3/xdr huh
20:57:03 <kmc> i wonder if anyone uses this other than Sun RPC
20:57:48 <elliott> oh I interpreted Bike's "can i not jack??" very differently
20:58:32 <fizzie> kmc: Also I think NFS somewhere, and libvirt.
21:05:57 <kmc> oh libvert really?
21:05:59 <kmc> elliott: you too
21:06:15 <kmc> libvirt ate my balls
21:06:23 <elliott> kmc/Bike looking stronger by the minute
21:06:32 <kmc> by which I mean, libvirt and virt-manager keep getting into arguments that result in one of them crashing
21:06:34 <fizzie> I recently ran into its use of XDR on somewhere, maybe a stray comment on ##c.
21:06:37 <ion> libelliott
21:07:32 <kmc> gcc -lliott
21:08:52 <fizzie> Remember to compile your code with -Wno-elliott or gcc will be all "you should've used Haskell for this".
21:09:32 <shachaf> is that warning even included in gcc -Larry -Wall
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21:13:58 <shachaf> What's this tune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq1mdEtjAA
21:14:09 <shachaf> Does it exist outside of Discworld 2?
21:14:37 <ion> Does it exist?
21:15:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:15:37 <ion> Does anything exist?
21:16:54 <zzo38> Mathematics exists.
21:19:35 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:20:45 <ion> Can i be sure if i don’t exist?
21:21:20 <ion> zzo38: I see what you did there.
21:21:36 <ion> Mathematics “∃”.
21:22:33 <kmc> Are you TIRED of dealing with half-assed Unicode support? *black and white video of someone comically fumbling a basket of compatibility characters encoded as CESU-8*
21:23:09 <kmc> if zzo38 did not exist it would be necessary to invent him
21:23:10 -!- Bike has joined.
21:23:19 <zzo38> Not really. Many things don't need full Unicode support (and some don't need any Unicode support).
21:24:25 <zzo38> ion: No, I didn't do that there. That is what *you* did there.
21:25:56 <Bike> @oeis 1,16,3072
21:25:57 <lambdabot> A sequence related to the period T of a simple gravity pendulum for arbitrar...
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21:30:02 <zzo38> A program to convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 may support both CESU-8 and normal UTF-8, for example. Overlong encodings might also be supported. In other applications, there will be other limitations.
21:30:52 <zzo38> For some programs you may even have codes that are outside of the range of Unicode; UTF-8 supports up to 36-bits at least.
21:32:19 <kmc> in fact CESU-8 or things like it tend to do overlong encoding of U+0000
21:32:31 <ion> Why does CESU-8 exist, btw? (Seriously, not an existence joke. :-P)
21:32:38 <Bike> http://oeis.org/A223068/list i don't like these numbers
21:32:44 <kmc> ion: I blame Oracle
21:32:55 <kmc> since Java and MySQL both do the wrong thing
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21:33:10 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if you are using a zero-byte as a terminator, then using overlong encoding for that works. VGMCK also uses overlong encoding for trailing spaces (U+0020) too.
21:33:22 <ion> Why did they choose such a representation, i wonder?
21:33:47 <kmc> because long ago, Unicode was supposed to be a 16-bit character set
21:33:54 <zzo38> ion: I suppose that any program converting UTF-8 to UTF-16 will naturally support CESU-8.
21:34:08 <zzo38> Although it ought to support the normal UTF-8 too.
21:34:17 <kmc> (or UCS was, anyway)
21:34:19 <kmc> so systems like Java, MySQL, and JavaScript ( :( :( :( ) were built around this assumption
21:34:46 <kmc> UTF-16 is a hack to retrofit full Unicode 20.1 bit characters onto UCS-2
21:35:11 <Bike> how about we just communicate with scrolls copied by monks
21:35:16 <ion> “Let’s leak the internal representation of text to the programmer, i’m sure everything will be fine.”
21:36:06 <kmc> Bike: fine as long as I get some more multiocular O's out of this bargain
21:36:20 <zzo38> UTF-8 allows much longer numbers, although they cannot be used with Unicode. (One possible use is if you are making a Glk input recording in UTF-8 format, then you can encode the Glk special key codes, which are 32-bits long.)
21:37:03 <shachaf> imo we should require at least one multiocular o in all rhymes composed in this channel
21:37:26 <ion> :────────────┐
21:37:38 <zzo38> But there is two kinds of multiocular O isn't it?
21:38:05 <zzo38> Isn't there, one kind with seven eyes and one kind with ten eyes, or something like that?
21:38:22 <ion> There’s one with “multi”
21:38:22 <kmc> shachaf: that was an amazing limerick
21:38:25 <shachaf> Well, those are different glyphs for the same letter.
21:38:42 <kmc> zzo38: I have only seen one multiocular O that predates Unicode, and it had 10 eyes
21:38:50 <kmc> but the Unicode reference glyph has 7
21:39:03 <zzo38> (Unicode doesn't tell the difference, so if you want to write about seraphims with many eyes by using this alphabet, then you cannot know if you mean they have seven eyes or ten, if you are using Unicode.)
21:39:18 <Bike> major design flaw
21:39:27 <Bike> wait i already joked re: this
21:39:28 <kmc> if I ever find myself in Sergiyev Posad, I will attempt to ask some monks in very broken Russian if they will show me some other multiocular Os
21:39:46 <kmc> or I could just like look through the online manuscript scans but that's boooooooringc
21:39:55 <ion> Who is Sergiyev Posad and why would you find yourself in him?
21:40:02 <Bike> what were the manuscripts even about
21:40:16 <ion> bike: Os mainly.
21:40:33 <kmc> Bike: jesus
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21:40:49 <Bike> new testament?
21:41:12 <kmc> if only somebody had researched this and put it on the wikipedia article about 2 years ago
21:41:15 <Bike> "For a generally accessible and less technical introduction to the topic, see Introduction to pendulum (mathematics)." oh boy
21:41:32 <kmc> ok so not jesus
21:41:55 <kmc> jesus only appears in the sequel
21:42:52 <zzo38> Sequel to what? Psalms?
21:42:54 <shachaf> imo is the sequel even canon
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21:45:09 <kmc> there is a lot of jesus fan fiction
21:45:15 <kmc> some of it is in the quran
21:45:44 <kmc> he makes clay pigeons fly
21:45:55 <kmc> as a young kid
21:46:04 <Fiora> did the book of mormon have jesus fanfic?
21:46:16 <Bike> oh that reminds me to be angry at fox for their latest bigotness
21:46:18 <zzo38> It is possible some of it is somewhat based on true stories.
21:46:21 <Bike> Fiora: it's the premise
21:46:53 <Bike> Fiora: the book of mormon is a solution to the problem of "wait, if jesus only appeared to some eurasians and you can't go to heaven w/o jesusism, americans were fucking boned"
21:47:24 <Bike> whether "native americans are actually jewish" is a good solution is up for debate.
21:47:53 <zzo38> I don't think they were Jewish, nor is that a solution.
21:48:02 <elliott> wow ok nobody told me the book of mormon was that exciting
21:48:14 <kmc> why did some white people in America in the 19th century care whether long dead native americans were in hell or not
21:48:20 <Bike> it's really dully written i assure you
21:48:21 <kmc> seems uncharacteristic
21:48:40 <elliott> kmc: white people have a long and rich history of caring deeply for the feelings of native americans [laugh track]
21:48:55 <kmc> that's why i don't litter anymore
21:48:58 <Bike> kmc: because it would be god sending people to hell for arbitrary reasons they couldn't deal with themselves, unlike being gay etc. which isn't arbitrary
21:50:00 <kmc> what about all the people who lived before jesus
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21:50:22 <zzo38> I don't really like the name "Book of Mormon" since "Mormon" is also the name of one of the books it includes.
21:50:34 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:50:35 <Fiora> weren't there like endless apologetics about the subject of what happened to aristotle and other famous philosophers that the christians revered at the time?
21:50:37 <Bike> No, see, Jesus changed the rules of being saved. Before Jesus the rules were different.
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21:51:08 <kmc> then it's really his fault
21:51:46 <Bike> I don't think you're in the properly ridiculous frame of mind you need to be in to do theology.
21:52:08 <kmc> if JavaScript is Scheme with C syntax then Rust is Linear ML with C++ syntax (n.b. none of these things is true)
21:52:26 <kmc> Bike: it's similar to math right?
21:52:47 <Bike> "Everything Jesus does is good" is axiomatic, that kinda thing
21:53:01 <kmc> what about yelling at a tree for no reason
21:53:07 <zzo38> There is a "properly ridiculous frame of mind" you need to be in to do theology?
21:53:44 <Bike> zzo38: see https://twitter.com/Non_Cunningham
21:55:34 <Bike> kmc: yeah there's that and the whole business with zipporah and who fuckin knows
21:56:22 <kmc> don't know this story
21:56:31 <Bike> zipporah and the inn
21:56:37 <Bike> it's pretty incomprehensible i recommend it
21:57:26 <Bike> oh, and as long as i'm mentioning mormons i want to remind anybody who cares that they didn't allow black priests until 1978. just good to keep in mind
21:57:41 <Vorpal> Interesting, I can watch 1080p video from my RPi over NFS, but it doesn't keep up streaming over smbfs.
21:58:07 <Vorpal> Guess putting the server in the kernel helps quite a bit
21:59:22 <elliott> Bike: that does not really surprise me
22:00:04 <kmc> i wouldn't really draw that conclusion
22:00:26 <Bike> no it was meant to... thing.
22:00:39 <kmc> er that was to Vorpal
22:01:19 <Vorpal> kmc, could be other overheads too yes
22:01:48 <kmc> I watch 1080p video over HTTP and sshfs sometimes
22:02:07 <Vorpal> well that is the point, low end system
22:02:26 <Vorpal> kmc, I have no doubt it would work fine if the server wasn't a RPi
22:03:29 <Vorpal> kmc, watching data rates when copying files over either protocol indicates that there is only a small difference when copying to the RPi, but a massive difference when reading from it
22:10:21 <olsner> fizzie: at some other Assembly you should organize an #esoteric assembly
22:10:29 <Bike> hey what's the deal with double factorials
22:10:55 <olsner> that and/or people should just make independent arrangements to be there
22:10:56 <fizzie> olsner: You think anyone'd come?
22:11:19 <olsner> I'd be there if I ever managed to write or participate in writing a demo
22:12:27 <fizzie> That's not really any sort of requirement. I never manage to get anything done either. (Granted, the place is like six or eight kilometres from here.)
22:13:25 <olsner> what do you do at a demo party if you're not involved in a demo?
22:14:10 <elliott> fizzie: I'd come as long as it isn't noisy or big, so in other words I wouldn't
22:14:17 <fizzie> Spectate/vote at the compos, meet people, that sort of thing.
22:14:38 <zzo38> Can you get involved in Z-Comp?
22:14:51 <fizzie> elliott: It's actually been a *lot* less noisy this last decade, after they implemented decibel limits. (It's still noisy.)
22:15:09 <elliott> my decibel limit is, like, three.
22:16:43 * Fiora hides with elliott in the quiet not-full-of-people place
22:16:52 <fizzie> There was the "oldskool" (platforms like C64, A500 and so on) event tonight, and as usual, there were really few "proper" entries.
22:16:57 <fizzie> One slideshow-only ad for a new Finnish demoscene-culture-and-computer-stuff magazine, one invtro for a party with a silly name I forgot, one (ZX Spectrum) invtro for Sundown and one kind of minimal entry.
22:17:06 <fizzie> (And then Dekadence had done a reasonable A500 demo, which was the one proper one.)
22:17:34 <Lumpio-> Sucks you can't vote for just one entry
22:17:41 <Lumpio-> Must choose a 2nd and a 3rd one...
22:18:21 <fizzie> Invtros are a valid thing to do, though. (Still, they tend to be not all that impressive.)
22:18:22 * Bike considers forcing fiora and elliott to come to event, bringing tarp to cover them with when they get overstimulated
22:19:22 <Fiora> do you have like spacetime tarps
22:19:27 <Fiora> like, tarps that isolate you from the rest of the spacetime around you
22:19:51 <Bike> That's what regular tarps do.
22:19:57 <Fiora> but they don't block the sound
22:20:02 <yorick> no they only isolate you from space
22:20:03 <Bike> I could pad it!
22:20:11 <Fiora> they, like, they still allow timelike paths to cross them >_<
22:20:16 <Bike> yorick: i'd like to see anyone time travel through one of my tarps
22:20:23 <Bike> imo impossible.
22:20:47 <yorick> Bike: I'll just time travel with a rate of 1 second per second and walk through your tarp
22:20:56 <Lumpio-> fizzie you gotta come outwide
22:20:58 <elliott> pretty sure this is just Bike's ploy to ask me if I want to ride him when I ask about travel plans
22:21:07 <Lumpio-> To the oficial assembly meet
22:21:16 <Fiora> he's just trying to kidnap us >_<
22:21:40 <elliott> Bike kind of sounds like the least scary person you could possibly be kidnapped by, so I'm cool with that
22:21:40 <fizzie> zzo38: Not this year; they removed the "bring your own hardware" option, so the platforms are rather limited because it's only what they have available. (C64, Plus/4, A500, Atari ST, 130xe, MSX1, Speccy and Amstrad CPC6128.)
22:21:53 <Bike> if i was kidnapping you i'd use a burlap sack, not a tarp! what were you raised in a kidnappingless barn
22:22:02 <Fiora> I guess that's probably true
22:22:10 <Fiora> well, okay, elliott is probably even less scary
22:22:42 <zzo38> fizzie: Ah, OK. If they had "bring your own hardware" option, what computers did some people use?
22:23:04 <Bike> i'm sure i'm at least two petaelliotts on the fear scale.
22:23:08 <Fiora> unless "scarily cute" counts :p
22:23:15 <fizzie> zzo38: Perhaps there'll be some in the "real wild" category where you can submit a video of basically anything that can be programmed in some sense.
22:23:45 <zzo38> Will you submit the program too?
22:23:52 <fizzie> zzo38: The VIC-20 has been popular outside that list, at least. And some old consoles, like NES and original Game Boy.
22:24:06 <fizzie> zzo38: No, I haven't done anything.
22:24:17 <olsner> I thought wild compos were commonplace, where you pretty much just provide anything with a suitable video/audio output and can submit it as an entry
22:24:22 <zzo38> I mean, instead of or in addition to the video.
22:24:23 <fizzie> zzo38: Oh, there was one NES song in the music competition.
22:24:41 <Bike> elliott: btw i don't know if you recall the "route of elliott", from hexham to dili, but i'd like to point out you could take most of it by bicycle.
22:24:41 <olsner> oh, but they removed it this year?
22:24:49 <fizzie> zzo38: Oh. Yes, preferrably, though I don't think it's required.
22:25:12 <elliott> Bike: was that the stupid roundabout fucklong one
22:25:16 <elliott> or just the fucklong one that wasn't that roundabout
22:25:26 <Bike> what do you mean roundabout
22:25:30 <fizzie> olsner: Wild's still there. They just had a bring-your-own-device option in the "Oldskool demo" category.
22:25:30 <elliott> the roundabout one involved taking ferries to europe just to get from one point of the UK to another.
22:25:37 <elliott> it was a beautiful triumph of Google's pathfinding algorithms
22:25:47 <zzo38> If I made it I would require the program, as well as a hardware for it to run on or an emulator which can run it
22:25:47 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Also I'm at home.
22:25:48 <Bike> elliott: dili's across indonesia so you won't have that problem.
22:25:55 <elliott> ok right so the other one.
22:26:12 <elliott> Bike: but it would take, like, at least 24 hours, right?
22:26:27 <elliott> so what you're saying is I should ride a bike all night long.
22:26:28 <Bike> do you have to be back for bed time
22:27:06 <Bike> it's actually a little over a fortnight.
22:27:14 <zzo38> Is there anything about if the hardware gets damaged by the program? Can this be done using the computers you listed? (I know with the Famicom it is probably possible to damage it if you set the PPU to slave mode, since it will try to output a high signal to pins connected directly to ground; they should have put pull-down resistors there but they didn't (and if I make a hardware clone, I will put resistors there).)
22:27:16 <elliott> I don't have that kind of stamina, Bike.
22:27:31 <Bike> "This route includes a ferry."
22:27:50 <olsner> "This route includes a demo party in Finland."
22:27:57 <fizzie> zzo38: Well, the rules say it must be delivered in executable form "if possible". But sometimes there's things like creative output devices, like that oscilloscope thing, where that doesn't really apply. (I think that one included a video, and then a sound file that made the oscilloscope picture.)
22:28:30 <zzo38> But you might make an emulator of it and/or schematics?
22:29:03 <Bike> Turn left at Faisal Medical Store
22:29:10 <zzo38> For the oscilloscope then of course a stereo sound file can help, although some lossy codecs are unsuitable.
22:29:30 <Bike> "Pass by Ahsan Ali -SEO Expert -SEO " see you could use this elliott
22:30:43 <elliott> I wonder if the route link is in the logs
22:30:50 <elliott> the one that went to antarctica and stuff
22:32:31 <fizzie> Lumpio-: I've been progressively less "on board" every year. Back in the 90s I bought the desktop and speakers and slept under the table (before that was forbidden) and did the whole live-in thing; last few years I've been just bringing the laptop and mostly Bike-ing home to sleep; and this year I've just got the tablet and external keyboard, and went home at like 11pm.
22:33:37 <elliott> sleeping under the table sounds a little unpleasant
22:34:07 <fizzie> elliott: It's also verboten nowadays. Fire risk this and security that.
22:34:24 <fizzie> People did kick you in the head occasionally, there's that.
22:34:37 <kmc> anyone going to 30C3?
22:35:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh there is a demo thingy going on now?
22:35:39 <fizzie> They're also much more serious with the checking of baggage on the entrances now that it's a "mainstream" event.
22:35:49 <zzo38> Do the programs ever damage the hardware? (I do not know of any Famicom emulator that will display a warning when the PPU is switched into slave move, although it is a feature I would like to see.)
22:35:57 <kmc> fizzie: checking it for dangerous things? or for drugz?
22:36:10 <olsner> hmm, so where do people sleep if you can't sleep under the tables?
22:36:20 <Vorpal> olsner, on top of them?
22:36:22 <fizzie> kmc: Well, and alcohol; you need to go outside for that.
22:36:29 <kmc> at Coachella they made people dump out water bottles, I guess because you could sneak booze in, but also so that you would buy overpriced water inside :(
22:36:37 <kmc> alcohol is a drug
22:36:40 <olsner> Vorpal: presumably about as verboten as under the tables sleeping
22:36:44 <fizzie> olsner: There's separate sleeping areas in the third floor hallways.
22:36:47 <Vorpal> olsner, I guess so yeah
22:37:00 <olsner> kmc: are you going to 30C3?
22:37:12 <kmc> olsner: maybe
22:37:17 <kmc> i haven't made any plans or anything
22:37:19 <elliott> kmc: so is caffeine technically
22:37:20 <kmc> but it sounds fun
22:37:21 <olsner> the web page boasts 22 people attending!
22:37:21 <fizzie> kmc: Don't tell anyone, but people did DRUGZ inside in dark corners back when the event was still at the Congress Centre.
22:37:22 <kmc> elliott: yes
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22:37:42 <kmc> fizzie: you were there before it was cool
22:37:54 <kmc> elliott: im doing drugz at work, right now
22:38:11 <elliott> kmc: recording this in my "in case I ever need to blackmail kmc" file
22:38:14 <fizzie> kmc: It's not really cool yet either, I think the right word is "popular".
22:38:23 <kmc> 2 cool 4 school
22:39:03 <fizzie> zzo38: I haven't heard of any case of that happening, and it's not mentioned in the rules. I guess they'd try to figure out if it was intentional or accidental.
22:39:06 <Bike> oh nice, somebody leaked the official GBC programming manual. for, some reason
22:39:17 <Vorpal> kmc, meaning you don't want to get a proper well paid job after?
22:39:28 <zzo38> Bike: Does it have anything that the unofficial ones don't have?
22:39:44 <Bike> it's several hundred pages
22:39:52 <zzo38> fizzie: I would like if an emulator is able to detect these kind of things, though.
22:39:53 <Vorpal> Bike, GBC standing for?
22:41:58 <Bike> "RULES OF ATTRACTION: CATCHING A PEAHEN'S EYE" i was not ready for paper titles
22:43:05 <Bike> http://jeb.biologists.org/content/216/16/i.1.full about what you'd expect
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22:44:07 <yorick> Bike: you didn't even mention things about fisherians runaways in your into!
22:44:35 <kmc> http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#sentinels ghostly sentinels
22:44:44 <Bike> my intro to what now
22:44:46 <yorick> elliott: I never speak
22:44:50 <yorick> Bike: to the paper thingy
22:45:04 <olsner> kmc: does rust use llvm for the backend?
22:45:16 <elliott> This is always a work in progress.
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22:45:18 <Bike> "The model did not find strong support, in part because it is difficult to experimentally test.[citation needed]" irony?
22:45:51 <Bike> "LIFE AT HIGH pH: MANAGING AMMONIA" #blazeit
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22:47:23 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
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22:47:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you're interested in graphics things, there was a presentation at Assembly describing two (SIGGRAPH) papers from our university that both were at least mildly interesting.
22:47:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/GMLT
22:47:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/FourierSVBRDF
22:48:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, the first one looks mildly interesting indeed
22:48:20 <fizzie> (I haven't checked what material they have there, I just saw the talk.)
22:48:28 <Vorpal> I have no idea what SVBRDF is
22:49:12 <olsner> Vorpal: that's what you can capture practically in the frequency domain
22:49:16 <fizzie> The GMLT is a raytracery kind of thing, and the latter is "collect material parameters (for a renderer) from samples without fancy custom hardware".
22:49:16 <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10
22:49:27 <Fiora> Bike: um. that doesn't sound very hospitable
22:49:44 <fizzie> Like, diffuse/specular stuff and surface normals and that kind of stuff.
22:49:46 <Fiora> 9 is apparently baking soda
22:49:46 <Bike> is it basic or acidic
22:50:01 <Bike> well apparently some fish live in that.
22:50:01 <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right?
22:50:04 <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff
22:50:26 <fizzie> (And the non-fancy hardware includes a DSLR and a monitor used as a controllable area light they put patterns on.)
22:50:35 * Fiora knows she has succeeded whenever bike says 'shut up'
22:52:25 <Bike> the last time i did pH stuff was high school ;~;
22:53:18 <fizzie> Bike: Was it p. "H"(ot stuff).
22:53:22 <shachaf> every time i visit kmc is like high school
22:54:38 <olsner> does shachaf live in kmc territory?
22:55:04 <Fiora> `quoteadd <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:55:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found
22:55:11 <Fiora> agh what's the command again <.<
22:55:26 <Fiora> `addquote <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:55:27 <kmc> _$SP$fn.$x27static$LP$$BP$Window$C$$x20i32$C$$x20i32$C$$x20i32$C$$x20i32$RP$::_e8625186375dbd8e::glue_drop_4727
22:55:30 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:55:30 <kmc> best function name
22:55:43 <kmc> yorick: Rust actually
22:55:46 <olsner> that's not c++ mangling
22:55:57 <kmc> c++ mangling I could undo with c++filt
22:56:11 <yorick> there is probably a way to undo this
22:56:12 <kmc> in fact Rust uses C++ mangling too, this has already been de-mangled once
22:56:20 <kmc> there is certainly a way in principle, I could write the tool, I may do it
22:56:22 <elliott> `run sed -i '1081s/</ </;1081s/^ //' quotes
22:56:27 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:56:30 <Bike> does nm include rust demangling yet
22:56:41 <elliott> `run sed -i '1081s/</ </g;1081s/^ //' quotes; quote 1081
22:56:45 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:56:46 <Bike> wave of the future and all
22:57:31 <Bike> does rust specify a manglation
22:58:03 <olsner> it probably does run manglatons
23:00:21 <kmc> manglatron
23:01:33 <kmc> we heard you like double frees so we put a call to your destructor in your destructor so you caSegmentation fault
23:03:09 <olsner> hmm, that reminds me, some c++ compilers automatically call destructors when you longjmp
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23:04:38 <olsner> (others don't ... good luck knowing which one you are)
23:05:17 <elliott> set up a destructor to test it
23:05:29 <shachaf> That's not something I'd expect from longjmp...
23:06:18 <zzo38> I have once made up some sokoban compression, which worked well (and Huffman coding it would improve it even more; I calculated how much more), but could a better one be made, so that games that are impossible to solve are not representable (or at least so a lot of them are)?
23:09:56 <kmc> I know you're not allowed to goto / switch-jump across the construction of a non-POD object
23:10:22 <kmc> Plain Old Data
23:10:26 <Vorpal> Fiora, what C++ programmers call normal C structs
23:10:49 <Fiora> so you can't jump across the call to a constructor?
23:11:00 <Vorpal> Correct, pretty sure it is a compiler error
23:11:44 <Vorpal> Fiora, of course it will be possible if that object is no longer in scope
23:11:55 <Vorpal> the issue is the cases where it would be in scope
23:14:38 <kmc> C++ vaguely tries to ensure that if you have a value of type Foo (or &Foo) then it's been properly initialized by Foo's constructor
23:14:45 <kmc> of course there are many of ways to break this by casting and such
23:14:57 <Fiora> ahhhh, that makes sense
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23:16:25 <shachaf> iamfishhead: what's the "Y X is best X" thing?
23:21:12 <kmc> eg "Caltrain is best train"?
23:21:58 <olsner> eg "cal train is best train"?
23:22:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, That metropolis paper is quite interesting indeed
23:36:26 <kmc> when I'm pissed off with computers I go and interact with people, and then when I get pissed off about people I go back to interacting with computers
23:36:29 <kmc> it all makes sense really
23:36:47 <kmc> n.b. this is less obvious than it seems because a lot of the interacting with people is done via computers
23:36:51 <shachaf> kmc: what if it's computer people
23:37:03 <kmc> usually is
23:37:32 <olsner> do bots count as people or computers?
23:38:03 <shachaf> what about interacting with different people
23:38:24 <shachaf> or is it an annoyance with people in general
23:39:01 <kmc> sometimes either
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23:39:30 <shachaf> with "people in general" i'm often not so much annoyed as exhausted or something
23:40:06 <kmc> yeah that's true
23:40:16 <kmc> it's possible to run out of social energy without being in anyway upset or perturbed
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00:16:24 <Fiora> "100.75 T: strongest (pulsed) magnetic field yet obtained non-destructively in a laboratory"
00:16:28 <Fiora> "730 T: strongest pulsed magnetic field yet obtained in a laboratory, destroying the used equipment, but not the laboratory itself"
00:16:36 <Fiora> 2.8kT: "strongest (pulsed) magnetic field ever obtained (with explosives) in a laboratory"
00:16:42 <Fiora> Bike: #overlyhonestmethods
00:17:12 <Jafet> I recommend using explosives outside of laboratories
00:17:14 <Fiora> I lost it at "but not the laboratory itself"
00:18:49 <shachaf> why did i use to think the word was "labroratory" years ago
00:19:05 <shachaf> apparently that's p. common so maybe i picked it up from someone else
00:23:12 <Fiora> "The facility contains 14 resistive magnet cells connected to a newly upgraded 48 megawatt DC power supply and 15,000 square feet (1,400 m2) of cooling equipment to remove the heat generated by the magnets." @____@
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00:31:24 <Bike> Fiora: #perfectlyhonestmethods
00:32:08 <shachaf> #thingsthatlooklikeircchannelnames
00:32:10 <Bike> Fiora: also https://twitter.com/search?q=%23sciconfessions
00:34:10 <shachaf> hmm, does Bike follow me on twitter
00:35:17 <Fiora> "Had this as the forward to my thesis because mice ruled my life for the last 2 years. http://instagram.com/p/RNm5_7w2rc/ " oh gosh
00:36:25 <Fiora> "who knew some bins weren't autoclave safe"
00:37:46 <Bike> still somewhat worried that "walk-in autoclave" is a thing that exists
00:38:08 <Fiora> "I've exposed and developed X-ray film to make extremely dark eye protectors for the lab to look at a solar eclipse."
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00:40:05 <Fiora> "Cabbages shatter into a million tiny bits if you put them in liquid nitrogen and then throw them at each other #sciconfessions"
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00:43:38 <Bike> who didn't do that in high school
00:44:20 <shachaf> Fiora: How many years of bad luck is that?
00:44:28 <shachaf> I don't think that was covered in my manual...
00:44:30 <Fiora> I didn't do it >_<
00:44:48 <Jafet> This is probably how they make frozen shredded cabbage
00:45:10 <Fiora> "I used 200 proof EtOH to make jello shots "
00:45:29 <Fiora> "I used the autoclave to cook corn on the cob. It was delicious on a 5 min fast exhaust cycle"
00:45:33 <Fiora> ohmy gosh this tag
00:45:55 <shachaf> Bike: hey do you actually need the object mapping part of a functor
00:49:38 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.labsolutely.org/2013/07/31/sciconfessions-confess-your-lab-sins/ here's a summary list thing
00:51:09 <Bike> "As an undergrad, I managed to melt laboratory glassware during practicals. Now I am doing bioinformatics. " there's a cruel joke here
00:54:25 <kmc> > (2*3*5*7)^2
00:54:26 <Fiora> um. which list is the homestuck list
00:55:27 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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00:59:38 <pikhq> Yaaay, new box up.
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01:07:00 <Bike> chickens have magnetoreception. what the fuck
01:07:59 <kmc> what do they use it for
01:08:25 <Bike> navigating. i guess.
01:08:49 <Bike> you can train them to find a "social stimulus" (haven't read the paper) along magnetic axes.
01:12:35 <pikhq> IIRC humans have profoundly weak magnetoreception.
01:19:37 <Jafet> Some humans, however, have found strong magnets irresistible
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01:43:40 <zzo38> Does Bxh8# ever happen? (I can make up a way for it to happen, but I don't know if they have actualy done this.)
01:44:14 <kmc> chess notation?
01:45:13 <monotone> Bishop in a corner, capturing for checkmate.
01:45:41 <pikhq> Bishop takes at H8 checkmate? Hmmmm.
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02:00:03 <madbr> you'd have to do it by moving out of some other piece's way no?
02:00:12 <madbr> like out of a rook or a queen's path
02:00:43 <zzo38> Yes, it does have to be discovered check, as far as I can see.
02:05:51 <madbr> moving to a corner doesn't add any new squares available to the bishop
02:06:00 <madbr> so it can't give check
02:13:58 <zzo38> Infocom's documentation for the PTSIZE instruction of the Z-machine has the strange wording "Guaranteed to return a meaningless value".
02:15:04 <shachaf> maybe it was written by nal
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02:23:50 <kmc> who's that
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02:57:30 <Bike> Couldn't you have Bxh8# by having the bishop moving /away/ from where it was cause it, and the capture be incidental?
03:02:18 <zzo38> I do not understand what you mean.
03:02:46 <zzo38> Do you mean a discovered check?
03:03:15 <Bike> yes, that's the term, sorry.
03:03:26 <zzo38> Yes, that is also what I wrote above.
03:03:32 <zzo38> And what madbr wrote too.
03:03:42 <pikhq> Yeah, discovered works.
03:06:26 <zzo38> Maybe like this: 4K1kn/6B1/6Q1/8/8/8/8/8 (This is the one I was thinking of when I wrote "I can make up a way for it to happen", but I was also wondering if an actual chess game in some tournament was ever with a move Bxh8#)
03:07:11 <Bike> all of the chess move databases i found in cursory googling are only openings.
03:08:16 <madbr> what's the worst possible chess opening?
03:08:27 <zzo38> The Scholar's Mate, I guess.
03:08:37 <zzo38> Actually the Fool's Mate is the worse.
03:08:47 <pikhq> Maybe at least a chess problem.
03:08:58 <madbr> aside from the one where white opens up to checkmate in 2 moves yeah
03:09:00 <zzo38> Scholar's Mate is when the opponent does it.
03:09:18 <Fiora> "20. The Ammonia Attack (Nh3) - Pros: None. Cons: All the same as Na3, plus the king's knight is arguably of slightly more potential importance in the opening than the queen's since the e-pawn needs extra protection in ways the d-pawn doesn't."
03:09:22 <Bike> Are there mates in any number of moves more than two?
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04:48:43 <Sgeo> ProfStef has jumped the shark
04:50:23 <Sgeo> It's not at all obvious how to get to it in a useful way from opening Pharo for the first time
04:50:58 <Sgeo> There is a ProfStef tutorials button, but trying it leads to a help browser, which doesn't support right-clicking a selection to DoIt, completely screwing the innocent user out of being able to follow the tutorial
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05:56:12 <zzo38> I have read recently of a chess variant called "Czech Chess", which is: If the piece you moved gives check, put a pawn of your own color in the space it moved from. If the space it moved from is in the promotion zone, the placed pawn is immediately promoted. There is no promotion to queens in this game.
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08:42:24 <kmc> hi everybody
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08:50:59 <Taneb> I had a weird dream last night
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08:53:57 <Taneb> It was at a small social do near the entrance to an abandoned mine
08:54:18 <Taneb> (the abandoned mine probably wasn't important, might be to do with the Lego I bought yesterday)
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08:56:50 <shachaf> Taneb: did you know every functor : C -> Set that has a left adjoint is representable?
08:57:51 <shachaf> in particular, in haskell, if F and G are endofunctors and F -| G, then G x ~ (R -> x) for some R
08:58:40 <shachaf> this is kind of straightforward because F -| G p. much means forall a b. (F a -> b) ~ (a -> G b)
09:21:52 <Taneb> Anyway, in this dream, I made friends with some guy who had moved from south-east Asia
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09:58:32 <Taneb> And then I gave him a hug and it turned out he was gay and had a crush on me
10:01:26 <fizzie> Heh, there's a guy giving a seminar on PS4 development.
10:01:44 <fizzie> "Please don't take any photos and this won't be streamed."
10:01:54 <fizzie> I'm getting some EXCLUSIVE info here, that's fer shur.
10:02:18 <fizzie> (It's some guy who's a "Principal Engineer" at SCEE R&D.)
10:02:59 <fizzie> "There are some slides here that are... sensitive."
10:03:24 <Taneb> "Please don't hurt their feelings"
10:04:44 <fizzie> So far it's just been a PR blurb.
10:05:01 <fizzie> "Core Gamers" "fun for the whole family" "frictionless interaction" blah blah.
10:06:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:07:20 <fizzie> Well, at least it proceeded on to some specs and such.
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10:14:08 <fizzie> Lots of emphasis on doing general sort of computing on the GPU.
10:15:14 <oerjan> @ask quintopia <quintopia> nonetheless, it is a useless exercise at the moment, as I have been moving north slowly for 4.5 months, so the centroid would be rather erratic <-- are you on a boat or something
10:15:19 <oerjan> 20:17:19: <Bike> ekmnosy
10:16:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe it was a reference to continental drift.
10:16:31 <oerjan> how did i manage to select bike's comment too
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10:39:50 <fizzie> TIL: PS4 has a hardware video encoder that's always on and keeps a buffer of the last few minutes of what's happened.
10:40:06 <fizzie> (They seem to be very much about the social thing.)
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10:45:51 <fizzie> Next up: "Strange Days in the Rift"
10:46:34 <fizzie> (It's something related to the Oculus thing.)
10:48:14 <Jafet> I need the same thing for my terminal
10:51:08 <fizzie> Yes, who needs to see the world when you've got a terminal.
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11:03:42 <fizzie> Rift seems to be hip and pop, those seating places are all filled up.
11:05:28 <fizzie> Meh; I tried to make that presence plot finger-draggably, but for some reason it only drags for a small amount and then stops.
11:12:36 <fizzie> t suppose Android-Chrome has some way of e.g. showing the console.foo() logs?
11:14:00 <Lumpio-> You connect it up to your computer with USB debugging
11:14:11 <Lumpio-> And you can run the whole developer tools thing on your computer
11:14:14 <fizzie> But I'm here with the tablet only.
11:14:20 <Lumpio-> Debugging and inspecting also works.
11:14:40 <fizzie> I guess I could just postpone fixing it until I get home.
11:14:53 <fizzie> But that's so easy, like a monoid.
11:18:42 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
11:19:36 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:20:50 <Jafet> @quote lax.functor
11:20:50 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
11:23:22 <fizzie> `pastlog love.*so easy
11:23:29 <HackEgo> 2013-02-26.txt:18:40:12: <elliott> I love morpeth, it is so easy
11:23:40 <fizzie> `pastelogs love.*so easy
11:23:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8686
11:24:22 <katla> pls explain <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:24:50 <katla> monoid laws (identity and associativity) give monad laws
11:24:52 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
11:25:27 <fizzie> (It's the most useful learndb.)
11:25:54 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
11:26:19 <HackEgo> isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
11:27:03 <katla> so you have an endofunctor M, with morphisms 0, 1, 2, 3, ...
11:27:29 <katla> how does that give you a monad M with eta and mu
11:33:31 <oerjan> the "monoid in a category" thing is something very abstract that is not the same as an ordinary monoid.
11:34:36 <oerjan> in some sense, eta is the "identity" and mu is the "multiplication", iirc
11:35:57 <oerjan> except i've forgotten how exactly it goes.
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11:38:46 <oerjan> eta :: x -> m x, mu :: m (m x) -> m x and eta . mu = id, mu . fmap eta = id is what corresponds to the identity laws
11:39:00 <oerjan> and hm associativity would be...
11:39:08 <oerjan> mu . fmap mu = mu . mu
11:39:40 <oerjan> m (m (m x)) -> m x and it doesn't matter which m you apply the mu to
11:39:55 <katla> oh right if M (an endofunctor) is your object, then your monoid maps (0, 1, and all the rest) are natural transforms
11:40:33 <oerjan> ...what do 0, 1 have to do with monoids
11:41:03 <katla> i just think of a monoid that way
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11:41:40 <katla> i guess thats wrong
11:41:50 <oerjan> well a monoid has an identity which you might call 0 or 1, but i have no idea what you mean if you use both
11:44:08 <oerjan> the morphisms in the category of endomorphisms are natural transformations though.
11:48:13 <katla> so we have endofunctor M and id : M -> M and * : MxM -> M
11:49:10 <oerjan> i have been trying to point that what's meant by "monoid in a category" is _not_ a monoid in the usual sense.
11:50:28 <oerjan> it's what you get if you put the idea of "monoid" through a process of analogy to a categorical level, which i think can be applied to any sort of algebra.
11:51:59 <oerjan> basically, think of m (m x) as analogous to MxM, and mu as your *
11:52:46 <katla> thanks for helping expose this lie
11:52:57 <fizzie> Category theory: provoking strong emotions since [year].
11:52:57 <oerjan> well it is a construction category theoreticians use, anyway
11:53:31 <oerjan> katla: well the whole "monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors" thing is a half-joke anyway.
11:54:02 <oerjan> so it is really to be expected that the thing on the right is more complicated than it seems.
11:55:30 <fizzie> "The presentation will showcase Z Vector (http://www.z-vector.com). A new type of real-time VJ and music visualization software specifically made for depth sensors such as the Microsoft Kinect and the PrimeSense Carmine. The basic functionality of the software will be covered ("virtual camera tracking", stereoscopic rendering, GLSL shaders etc.). Tuomisto will also do a short real-time, fully ...
11:55:36 <fizzie> ... live controlled improvisational performance to a set music background."
11:55:55 <katla> if you just replace x with o (composition) it works?
11:56:57 <oerjan> i suppose that is what it does, sort of
11:58:08 <oerjan> mind you i am not entirely clear on this, since i have not learned how this analogizing works for more general things than monoids. i just remember the diagrams i saw for monads ~ monoids.
11:59:10 <oerjan> i expect wikipedia probably has articles on this stuff.
12:10:29 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
12:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> katla, i think you need to use a categorical formulation of monoids in general
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12:32:42 <fizzie> PLOT OF THE DAY https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130803-tmp.png
12:34:18 <fizzie> I'm also not entirely certain it's correct.
12:34:41 <fizzie> But who can say, right?
12:36:32 <fizzie> I think the X axis is time (from 1000 days ago to yesterday, left-to-right) and the Y axis goes from 0 Hz (top) to 0.00055 Hz (bottom).
12:39:58 <fizzie> The peak at about 10 pixels from the top corresponds to (1/24*60*60) Hz.
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12:43:41 <oerjan> is it a plot, or fizzie's felt carpet? only time will show.
12:44:00 <yorick> fizzie: and ehm, what is the actual data?
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12:47:23 <oerjan> <Fiora> I lost it at "but not the laboratory itself" <-- i like how that implies the next item listed _did_ destroy the laboratory.
12:47:49 <oerjan> @tell Fiora <Fiora> I lost it at "but not the laboratory itself" <-- i like how that implies the next item listed _did_ destroy the laboratory.
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13:09:39 <fizzie> yorick: Channel activity. (Number of characters in messages during 15-minute intervals.)
13:10:27 <yorick> so what happened during that week where nothing happened?
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13:10:28 <quintopia> fizzie: oh, you've got some nice new graphs?
13:10:43 <yorick> nice is an overstatement :P
13:10:46 <fizzie> quintopia: Sadly, no. Just "new", not "nice".
13:11:17 <yorick> fizzie: also, why is there a white line about 10 pixels from the top?
13:11:33 <fizzie> yorick: I explanated that.
13:11:46 <fizzie> yorick: It's the 1/(24*60*60) Hz line.
13:12:15 <yorick> <fizzie> I think the X axis is time (from 1000 days ago to yesterday, left-to-right) and the Y axis goes from 0 Hz (top) to 0.00055 Hz (bottom).
13:12:20 <fizzie> quintopia: It's just the STFT of channel activity.
13:12:52 <fizzie> There's a guy here talking on the topic of "How Not to Suck at Pinball". (Apparently some kind of pinball professional/enthusiast.)
13:13:17 <Lumpio-> There's an obvious column of less activity with more activity after it around the middle area
13:13:45 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Could be an artefact in my logs.
13:14:13 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes, and the intensity axis is logarithmic.
13:14:30 <yorick> fizzie: so the line is there because of the "day changed" message?
13:14:31 <Lumpio-> So it's the other way round then ¬u¬
13:14:48 <yorick> yes who makes graphs that have white higher
13:15:36 <fizzie> yorick: No, it's there because the overall channel activity has a strong daily variation: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_tod.html
13:15:52 <fizzie> (If you imagine that repeating, it's almost a sine wave at that frequency.)
13:25:50 <fizzie> Android YouTube player can't be left to play things in the background? Aww.
13:26:55 <yorick> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22989236/fixedit.png <-- tell me that this is a nice sine graph then :P
13:30:40 <fizzie> yorick: Any hump in a storm...
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14:15:15 <Fiora> oerjan: basically, yeah XD
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14:24:54 <fizzie> It's like everyone and their brother did a 1k intro this year.
14:24:58 <fizzie> There were like 13 entries.
14:25:22 <fizzie> It was terribly popular last year too; it's like the up-and-coming competition format.
14:26:30 <Fiora> I remember seeing 4K ones get really impressive a few years ago, maybe they're moving to 1K because it's harder to stand out as a 4K?
14:26:43 <fizzie> Yes, that is most likely what's happening.
14:26:52 <fizzie> They're PUSHING that BOUNDARY.
14:27:20 <fizzie> IIRC, pouet's categorization dropdown already goes down to 16b or 32b or so.
14:28:00 <fizzie> The entries of that category aren't... terribly interesting.
14:28:10 <Fiora> is 256b small enough that compression isn't usually used?
14:28:15 <Lumpio-> The 1k ones now are pretty much as good as 4k ones a couple years ago
14:29:09 <fizzie> Fiora: There aren't that many 256b's, but the break-even point w.r.t. compression is probably somewhere there.
14:29:43 <fizzie> Of course if you "cheat" you don't necessarily have to include decompression code, which means it can still be a win as long as the compression format has low overhead.
14:30:17 <fizzie> The 1ks were quite "fractally", unsurprisingly.
14:31:06 <fizzie> The "pipe $0 through xz" approach.
14:32:45 <Fiora> geez, do they allow that?
14:32:58 <Fiora> also I thought the demos used, like, COM files, so they didnt have to have the ELF overhead (?)
14:33:03 <fizzie> I haven't checked the rules, exactly; but I've seen that sort of stuff.
14:33:21 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't think you can have COM files on Linux sensibly. :p
14:33:31 <Fiora> all the ones I remember seeing were for windows...
14:33:40 <fizzie> Or in Windows if you want to call DLLs, I don't think.
14:34:11 <fizzie> I was under the impression that if you run a .com file, it gets ran under the old 16-bit virtual thing.
14:34:40 <fizzie> Though I'm certainly no expert on DOS/Windows demos.
14:35:04 <Fiora> ummmmm http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=32589 maybe?
14:35:18 <Lumpio-> Yeah you can gzip your stuff on Linux for about 50b of overhead
14:35:29 <Fiora> http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?type[]=256b most of these seem to say DOS?
14:35:32 <Lumpio-> I just did that for teh lulz
14:35:39 <Fiora> oh gosh, one is for the commodore 64 @_@
14:35:57 <Lumpio-> Well DOS has a zero-overhead executable format
14:36:04 <fizzie> Lumpio-: My uncompression wrapper is 59 bytes, but it properly uses mktemp instead of the conventional hardcoded /tmp/X.
14:36:16 <Lumpio-> http://lumpio.dy.fi/b/lors.sh
14:36:23 <fizzie> 59 bytes is a reasonable fraction of 256 bytes, though.
14:36:33 <Lumpio-> I should rewrite that so that it works on a vanilla ubuntu or something
14:36:42 <Lumpio-> Yeah well it's a balancing act.
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14:36:58 <fizzie> I'm having trouble following links here. SSH works nice, web-browsing less so.
14:37:25 <fizzie> x=`mktemp`;tail -n+2 $0|lzcat>$x;chmod +x $x;$x;rm $x;exit
14:37:46 <Lumpio-> Yeah mine-s the same except with no mktemp and zcat instead of lzcat
14:38:01 <katla> what does that do??
14:38:19 <katla> <fizzie> x=`mktemp`;tail -n+2 $0|lzcat>$x;chmod +x $x;$x;rm $x;exit
14:38:26 <fizzie> You prefix a compressed executable with it.
14:38:48 <fizzie> Then when you run it, it'll uncompress the rest (tail -n+2 $0 is the rest of the file) and runs the result.
14:39:09 <Fiora> that's really sneaky
14:39:17 <fizzie> Another popular Linux/ELF intro trick: import dynamic library symbols by hash.
14:39:37 <fizzie> ("Asymptotic" cost of 4 bytes/symbol, whereas the names can be quite long.)
14:39:41 <Lumpio-> I was lazy and just linked everything normally
14:39:53 <Lumpio-> Or even less than 4 if you can come up with a good hash!
14:40:11 <Lumpio-> I wonder what audio codecs vanilla ubuntu comes with
14:40:19 <Lumpio-> I'm sure it doesn't do MP3 and it'd be the most efficient for this.
14:40:28 <fizzie> On Windows people usually imported by ordinal, I believe.
14:41:11 <fizzie> I've (re)implemented the hash-import trick for fun one evening -- http://zem.fi/hashlink -- might not be the most optimilized one out there, but at least it's documented.
14:43:33 <Jafet> You just need to add a binfmt handler for compressed programs.
14:44:45 <fizzie> There were also a couple of JavaScript 1k's; there's a long-running web competition (js1k.com) for those.
14:44:46 <Lumpio-> haha so you've done proper 4k stuff huh
14:45:03 <Lumpio-> Jafet: If you were allowed to do that you might as well add a binfmt handler for your entire demo ;P
14:45:20 <fizzie> binfmt handler that runs your demo for all zero-byte files.
14:45:27 <fizzie> Then you can have your 0k intro.
14:45:36 <Fiora> or make an intro that like, wgets your actual intro
14:45:47 <Jafet> The intro to your intro
14:45:56 <Fiora> ooh, even better, um
14:45:57 <Fiora> http://cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/barf.html
14:46:04 <Jafet> You can also make it display some nice graphics while it downloads your intro.
14:46:10 <Fiora> (summary: it compresses any file to zero bytes, losslessly, by adding the last byte to its file extension)
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14:47:18 <fizzie> Fiora: IIRC, people have used the "data in file name" trick.
14:47:53 <fizzie> The compo machines generally aren't connected to the Interwebs to discourage the former.
14:48:03 <Fiora> erm, the former, that is
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14:48:45 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/1993/lmfjyh.c
14:50:02 <Fiora> gosh how does that even work
14:50:10 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/1993/Makefile
14:50:35 <Fiora> oh geez, so it's basically hiding the program in the makefile?
14:51:10 <Jafet> ${CC} ${CFLAGS} \"\;main\(\)\{puts\(\"Hello\ World!\"\)\;\}char\*C=\".c
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14:52:40 <Jafet> That reminds me, case __LINE__: http://www.ioccc.org/1998/schweikh1.c
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14:53:39 <fizzie> Fiora: From what I recall, there also have been (multiuser) systems where quotas are computed based on just sum of sizes of files, that people have circumvented by mechanisms that store their data in names of dummy files.
14:54:06 <Fiora> that's incredibly terribly evilly amazing.
14:58:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: 'sed 1d' is shorter than 'tail -n+2'
14:59:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're not doing the Assembly thing?
14:59:24 <fizzie> That's no reason to not start now.
14:59:32 <Deewiant> It wasn't a reason, it was an aside.
14:59:42 <fizzie> Although admittedly it's kind of a silly place.
15:00:03 <fizzie> Good place if you like delays in schedules, though.
15:00:20 <fizzie> (The short film competition was supposed to start half an hour ago.)
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15:49:32 <fizzie> Welp, that was a long too.
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16:41:55 <Taneb> Today's Irregular Webcomic annoys me because Cartesian coordinates are already named for Descartes I think
16:43:42 <Bike> so it says in the annotation.
16:51:39 <Taneb> How normal a name is "Kimi Räikkönen" in Finland?
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17:09:27 <Deewiant> Taneb: There have been 1305–1379 Kimis and 1948 Räikkönens in the last century or so.
17:09:54 <Taneb> So probably more common than Nathan van Doorn is in the UK
17:10:42 <fizzie> There was a TI-89 in the Wild.
17:11:00 <fizzie> I don't count it as a "real TI" because it has a 68k and not a Z80, though.
17:11:54 <fizzie> Also one RPi, one ZedBoard, one NDS, a couple of Androids and web browsers, and a few funky display devices (a 20x4 character LCD and an old metro station display).
17:17:41 <fizzie> Sure; so none of them are "real".
17:18:25 <fizzie> The other 8x models have a Z80 and therefore are.
17:18:31 <fizzie> (It's a pretty arbitrary distinction.)
17:18:52 <quintopia> i always had a fondness for the 89/92
17:19:12 <fizzie> I'd think they're cool if I had had one at school, probably; but TI-86 was the most "advanced" calculator you could have with you in exams.
17:19:42 <fizzie> 89/92 can (IIRC) do some symbolic stuff and was therefore a no-go.
17:23:50 <zzo38> I have a TI-92 calculator.
17:24:21 <zzo38> For exams it isn't allowed, not only because of the symbolic stuff but also because of the QWERTY keyboard.
17:24:40 <quintopia> yeah, my school system wasn't exactly that smart
17:24:51 <quintopia> they even allowed 89s for use on the SAT back then
17:25:18 <quintopia> my calc teacher made me wipe the memory before the final...which doesn't delete the archived items
17:25:28 <quintopia> so i just archived everything i wanted to keep
17:26:23 <zzo38> I remember they didn't require to wipe the memory of whatever calculator is used, as long as you didn't access any of the stuff you programmed into it before the exam.
17:27:34 <zzo38> They provided TI-83 to borrow.
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17:28:12 <quintopia> i wrote a program for the 89 that would row-reduce a matrix, showing the operation performed at every step and the result of that operation. It was more fun to write than to do a bunch of row reduction homework assignments by hand, and once I had, I could just copy down the words that it spit out without having to do any math
17:29:09 <zzo38> Well, if you wrote the program, including displaying the steps, then certainly you would know how it works.
17:29:46 <quintopia> yeah row-reducing by hand is about the most pointless assignment ever
17:30:12 <quintopia> would be better to just say "here's a matrix that's being reduced. what row operation should you do next?"
17:30:25 <quintopia> if you can answer that question consistently, you understand the process
17:30:53 <zzo38> If I was the teacher I would accept that although if it is done during an exam you would have to write the program during the exam instead of before (you could borrow a calculator without anything programmed into it for the exam).
17:32:10 <quintopia> yeah the program takes longer to write than just solving one problem
17:32:20 <quintopia> but it's a stupid problem to give anyway is the point
17:32:26 <zzo38> quintopia: For many mathematical stuff there is more than one way to arrive at the answer, though.
17:33:01 <quintopia> but in high school math, they usually want you to "write it out"
17:33:28 <quintopia> so that if you get the right answer the wrong way, they can still criticize
17:33:48 <zzo38> Yes, although there still might be more than one possible way to figure out. Of course a wrong way is wrong, but there can be more than one right way.
17:34:33 <quintopia> that's usually only a problem if you are better at math than your math teacher
17:35:14 <zzo38> And it does happen.
17:35:43 <zzo38> Although often the teacher understands that it is correct even if not necessarily the way taught.
17:35:52 <quintopia> for some reason, the very best mathematicians don't tend to become high school teachers
17:35:53 <zzo38> But also often this doesn't happen.
17:36:11 <zzo38> (In my experience, anyways, it works this way.)
17:36:56 <quintopia> do you have any ideas for improving math instruction for young people mr. zzo?
17:38:47 <zzo38> Well, if a teacher sees something they didn't know on the paper, they should check if it is correct rather than to just assume it is wrong without checking. Other than that I don't have another suggestion at this time, although perhaps if they can teach that a student can understand why these steps are correct, would also help to understand mathematics (for both the teacher and students).
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17:58:40 <fizzie> Welp. The 4k's were all very nice (esp. the HBC entry), but somehow I feel I've been more amazed before.
17:58:52 <fizzie> Possibly it's just familiarity with what can be done these days.
17:59:33 <coppro> fizzie: which contest?
17:59:48 <fizzie> coppro: Assembly 2013 4k.
18:00:00 <Lumpio-> I think I liked the last one the most.
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18:00:15 <fizzie> Lumpio-: So did everyone else. That's why they showed it the last. :p
18:00:36 <Lumpio-> Because of the cool plant like thing
18:01:17 <fizzie> Tip for getting applause in a 4k: do something that looks like some sort of a real-world thing, instead of just abstract spikeballs.
18:01:34 <fizzie> (E.g. the room in that one thing, the plant, the highways in HBC's thing.)
18:03:42 <fizzie> And the city in that rain thing.
18:05:16 <fizzie> I think I should download some android thing this tablet can run so that I can show it if I need to explain anyone what the whole demoscene thing is about.
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18:08:24 <fizzie> Bike: What do you know about light-Bikes?
18:08:55 <Bike> mostly that i'm not very good at gltron
18:09:24 <fizzie> We used to play some lightbike thing at the school classroom.
18:09:27 <fizzie> I think it ran over IPX.
18:10:38 <elliott> armagetron advanced is a hard game imo
18:11:02 <Deewiant> Since when is it called advanced
18:11:18 <elliott> since the original one stopped being maintained a billion years ago I think
18:11:18 <fizzie> I don't quite understand why this wifi is completely terrible when trying to web-browse, but the SSH works fine.
18:11:21 <elliott> p.s. I haven't played in years
18:11:37 <fizzie> Maybe there's some transparent proxy at work.
18:11:45 <Deewiant> Well I last played before finding out that it's called advanced nowadays
18:14:03 <zzo38> I quit "Yog-Sothoth" permanently because of the very buggy system and that they won't even take any of my suggestions seriously (for additional societies, commands, gods, etc) you can't even AFK while sleeping and there is no permadeath. (One person did take my suggestions seriously but they aren't an administrator so they can't do anything)
18:14:49 <fizzie> zzo38: This "Yog-Sothoth" was a different th[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~ing, though.
18:15:03 <elliott> a different th[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~ing
18:15:21 <fizzie> I was trying to scroll around at the same time.
18:15:23 <Deewiant> a different th?6~?6~?6~?6~?6~ing
18:15:38 <fizzie> And what. Browsing doesn't work on 3G either, while SSH does.
18:15:39 <zzo38> fizzie: Ah. Well, that one I cannot quit because I never used it, but yes you put escape codes in there??? You shouldn't do that?
18:15:47 <fizzie> Maybe the Chrome has broken somehow.
18:15:50 <fizzie> zzo38: It wasn't on purpose.
18:15:58 <Bike> i think yog sothoth engenders escape characters
18:16:19 <zzo38> (O, and they never told me the proper character encoding either)
18:16:47 <fizzie> I closed all tabs and now it works. Bizarre.
18:17:44 <zzo38> Do you know a game "Solter Solitaire"? This is a card game with forty cards, that at first I programmed it in TI-92 calculator, and then I made it in other systems as well and also with the actual cards. Now I am making it in Z-machine, one reason for this is so that I can make sure the "Frolg" assembler is OK.
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18:18:58 <fizzie> I don't know that game.
18:20:05 <zzo38> The rules are you have cards four of each 0 to 9 (suits are irrelevant). Deal into four rows. You can move the end card of a row to another row, to the free pile, or to the single foundation.
18:21:10 <zzo38> Foundation go up 0 to 9 wrapping and starting at whatever number you want. When moving to another row, you cannot move to empty rows, and must move to the number one up or one down (no wrapping) (for example, 5 goes on 6 or 4, 9 goes on 8). You can move to free pile regardless of sequence as long as you don't put more than four cards there in total.
18:21:22 <zzo38> Cards from free pile can go only in foundation.
18:22:36 <zzo38> Every card moved to foundation is worth 1 point, emptying a row is worth 2 points, and completing the game is worth an additional 2 points.
18:24:33 <quintopia> zzo38: do you like card collection games
18:24:55 <zzo38> quintopia: That isn't something I am familiar with.
18:28:10 <quintopia> zzo38: you can get this game you might like. https://www.thegamecrafter.com/designers/giant-robots
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19:35:28 -!- kmc has set topic: A different th[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~ing | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
19:35:58 <kmc> ^[[A^[[A^[[B^[[B^[[D^[[C^[[D^[[C
19:39:27 <shachaf> My ^[[C key is broken. :-(
19:40:28 <zzo38> You should replace the keyboard then.
19:40:56 <oerjan> kmc: is that topic supposed to contain actual control characters?
19:41:11 <oerjan> (because it doesn't seem to do so here)
19:41:20 <zzo38> It also doesn't seem to have here either.
19:41:43 <kmc> "The first Michell/Kingsbury fluid bearing in the USA was installed in the Holtwood Hydroelectric Power Plant... in 1912. The 2.25-tonne bearing supports a water turbine and electric generator with a rotating mass of about 165 tonnes and water turbine pressure adding another 40 tonnes.
19:41:48 <kmc> The bearing has been in nearly continuous service since 1912, with no parts replaced... As of 2002, the manufacturer estimated the bearings at Holtwood should have a maintenance-free life of about 1,300 years."
19:42:17 <shachaf> I suspect kmc just copied what his terminal showed for what fizzie said.
19:42:49 <shachaf> (fizzie's original had some \e characters but none of the others do)
19:43:12 <shachaf> Can the topic even contain control characters?
19:43:54 <shachaf> <fizzie> zzo38: This "Yog-Sothoth" was a different thESC[6~ESC[6~ESC[6~ESC[6~ESC[6~ing, though.
19:50:04 <monotone> IRC is wildly apathetic about what goes in messages, so long as there aren't any null bytes.
19:50:08 <oerjan> <Taneb> Today's Irregular Webcomic annoys me because Cartesian coordinates are already named for Descartes I think <-- yeah me too
19:50:37 <zzo38> Carriage return and line feeds aren't allowed either. Also, bells aren't allowed in channel names.
19:51:08 <oerjan> monotone: freenode censors some characters, however
19:51:53 <monotone> Yeah, I don't imagine people would take kindly to any use of BEL.
19:53:05 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
19:54:09 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
19:54:18 <monotone> It's like the cries of a dying deer in the forest.
20:28:52 <fizzie> fungot: Stop with the CTCPs.
20:28:52 <fungot> fizzie: can you link me with your anti-bush fnord blasphemy.
20:31:28 <fungot> shachaf: i read your " implementing doom" as " ex" troglodyte. or
20:31:39 <fungot> shachaf: so am i. luckily i already knew that... but i had to change and update the web
20:31:58 <olsner> fungot: you're a troglodyte?
20:31:59 <fungot> olsner: spróbuj mówiæ po polsku
20:32:24 <fizzie> A web-updating troglodyte.
20:33:13 <olsner> fungot: jesteś troglodyta?
20:33:13 <fungot> olsner: oh yea, no-brainer, if the implementation adheres to r5rs, they aren't!
20:34:54 <fizzie> oerjan: I think you forgot the word "like" there hth
20:35:31 <oerjan> hint: æ isn't a polish letter
20:38:16 <oerjan> "It is the fifth letter of the Polish, Sorbian, and Gaj's Latin alphabet of Serbo-Croatian (Standard Croatian, Standard Bosnian, and, when written the Latin script, Standard Serbian and Standard Montenegrin).[1] It is fourth in the Belarusian Łacinka alphabet."
20:41:59 <oerjan> mówić is the infinitive of an imperfective verb meaning "say, tell, speak, talk"
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20:43:16 <oerjan> spróbuj means "try", imperative singular
20:45:28 <fizzie> Hmp: the people_presence dragging works just fine in desktop-Chrome's "emulate touch events" mode.
20:45:29 <oerjan> also, arabic has no letter p fwiw
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21:09:20 <Sgeo> Gah the writing in this fanfic is horrific, but it has good reviews that sort of give the bad writing a pass
21:09:52 <Sgeo> It's interesting if I can ignore the stilted dialog
21:10:02 <zzo38> What fanfic is that? What kind of writing do they make in it (example)?
21:10:17 <Sgeo> "Just by being in authority, you get to question me anytime you want. If on any occasion, I am wrong then there are huge penalties to pay. Yet, if you are wrong, then there are absolutely no consequences."
21:10:33 <Sgeo> Harry's Game, a fanfic of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, itself a fanfic
21:11:25 <Sgeo> It makes me want to gorge my eyes out, but only because of the mannerisms, not the content
21:11:35 <Sgeo> McGonagall's wrinkles ceased compressing further. Harry knew that he had succeeded in convincing her.
21:11:38 <kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:13:10 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:13:16 <HackEgo> 1082) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:13:37 <zzo38> Is the quote file supposed to have a plus sign before their name?
21:14:16 <zzo38> But is the quote file supposed to have plus sign if they have voice?
21:14:31 <mnoqy> it can if you want
21:14:38 <Sgeo> I feel like I want to talk about how much work is going to suck, but shouldn't do it publically
21:15:00 <mnoqy> you feel like you want to?
21:15:03 <mnoqy> are you sure about that
21:15:19 <mnoqy> maybe you just think you feel you want to
21:15:40 <mnoqy> or you're pretending to think you feel you want to but really you dread the idea
21:15:43 <fizzie> Fiora: Assembly link of the day: http://sprunge.us/QIAA
21:16:12 <fizzie> Fiora: (From a long long blog post that -- as far as I can tell -- doesn't have linkable anchors for sections. Original source: http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/floating-point-determinism/ )
21:16:29 <elliott> fizzie: oh, assembly, not Assembly
21:16:56 <kmc> `quote '\+kmc'
21:17:01 <elliott> can I have an Assembly link of the day?
21:17:01 <kmc> `quote '+kmc'
21:17:09 <HackEgo> 1052) <+kmc> we are amused <+kmc> the royal +v \ 1082) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:17:20 <kmc> oh right when it's not `run then it's a single argument
21:17:30 <elliott> otherwise addquote would be annoying
21:17:33 <kmc> anyway I think you should leave the + iff it's part of the joke, as in 1052
21:17:37 <kmc> but i don't care
21:17:41 <Sgeo> One of the reviews: "This story is amazing. Even though you are not as good a writer as Eliezer Yudkowsky, especially when it comes to writing other people's characters, you have done what I would have believed impossible: you have shown an interesting Quidditch game, which I previously thought was an oxymoron."
21:17:54 <elliott> I think kmc's + taints everything he says
21:17:57 <fizzie> elliott: Uh... I'd link to some entry I liked, but I don't think they've made to scene.org yet.
21:18:02 <elliott> it is integral to the experience of his lines in my mind
21:18:08 <kmc> it is my taint bit
21:18:16 <elliott> quite possibly a joke completely unrelated to voice is only made funny by its presence
21:18:33 <kmc> itt perl -T
21:18:34 <fizzie> elliott: Except for the gamedev entries. Well, uh... there's an "Assembly simulator" there, you can use it to pretend-visit. (Except it seemed kind of terrible.)
21:18:35 <elliott> "Even though you are not as good a writer as Eliezer Yudkowsky" rare phrases
21:18:57 <Sgeo> Are you saying Eliezer is a bad writer?
21:18:58 <mnoqy> Sgeo: why are you reading this
21:19:00 <kmc> unsafe { fuck tha police }
21:19:12 <Sgeo> Because of that review and because it was mentioned in a Reddit thread
21:19:14 <elliott> kmc..... use protection..........
21:20:15 <mnoqy> Sgeo: why are you reading that review. why are you reading reddit.
21:20:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Eli honestly is a pretty bad writer.
21:21:09 <Sgeo> o.O? HPMOR is awesome, how is it badly written?
21:21:12 <mnoqy> even pikhq can't defend it
21:22:01 <pikhq> Dude, the main character in HPMOR is practically a Mary Sue.
21:22:08 <pikhq> Better than the typical Mary Sue, but still.
21:22:56 <Sgeo> He's a Mary Sue except when he fails hard
21:23:35 <pikhq> Having a Mary Sue get hoisted by his own petard does not a good character make.
21:29:25 <Sgeo> Adults eat Lucky Charms and Macarroni and Cheese, right?
21:29:59 <Sgeo> (Ok, so googling reveals that GM has an ad campaign directed to nostalgic adults but adults were eating them anyway)
21:30:10 <Sgeo> But... I don't have Lucky Charm related nostaligia at all
21:30:16 <Sgeo> I just like marshmallows
21:31:44 <mnoqy> what sort of maccaroni are we talking here
21:32:25 <olsner> is lucky charm a brand of marshmallows?
21:32:58 <mnoqy> it's cereal marshmallows
21:32:59 <Sgeo> olsner: it's a brand of cereal that has marshmallows in it
21:33:09 <mnoqy> idg how people like cereal marshmallows or sugary cereals or
21:33:22 <olsner> Sgeo: ah, I don't think adults are supposed to eat that
21:33:30 <Sgeo> http://gawker.com/5964591/as-if-adults-havent-been-eating-lucky-charms-this-whole-time
21:33:39 <Sgeo> Sorry for Gawker link
21:34:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you know about kan extensions and kan lifts
21:34:53 <mnoqy> i never got around to learning that stuff
21:35:06 <shachaf> Fixing this involves *nested* CPR analysis, which I am working on at the moment.
21:35:20 <olsner> `quote kha+n extension
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21:35:34 <shachaf> that was an spj quote btw, not me
21:35:53 <olsner> `quote kaa+n extension
21:36:07 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0015.html
21:36:21 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo learn kan extensions
21:36:33 <mnoqy> they probably are huh
21:43:20 <Sgeo> Analysing the best way to keep a dead person's blood flowing so their brain can continue to receive oxygen until professional help can arrive
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21:44:55 <lambdabot> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/Papers/cpr/index.htm
21:45:08 <Sgeo> o.O Adam Lee (who is made of pure awesome) likes xkcd
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21:46:50 <mnoqy> and why do you care
21:47:28 <shachaf> mnoqy: should've started with the fourth question
21:48:44 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you ``made of pure awesome''?
21:49:02 <Sgeo> Adam Lee is this guy http://ebonmusings.org/atheism
21:49:39 <mnoqy> i dont think i want to click
21:51:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: but don't you like ironclad logic
21:54:17 <shachaf> the joke is http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/all-possible-worlds/#part2
21:56:20 <shachaf> if god is real why are there atheists
21:57:44 <zzo38> Do you know "ignostic"?
21:57:53 <zzo38> Does that answer the question for you with another question?
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22:24:33 <FreeFull> 1382934587194025722583321808878440049785645138984926013
22:31:28 <quintopia> the famous dilemma is this: if god is omnibenevolent, why did he subject us to shachaf?
22:32:09 <shachaf> if god is omnomnevolent, why am i hungry
22:32:34 <zzo38> What makes you think you know everything about God and omnibenevolence?
22:33:49 <shachaf> zzo38: you should start a cult
22:33:59 <zzo38> shachaf: That depends. Is "zzo38ist" a word?
22:34:49 <zzo38> I don't want to start a cult. A proper religion should not be a "cult", but I can certainly write my opinions about religious stuff, and you are free to take it for what you want.
22:35:50 <Sgeo> zzo38 is too lenient about what others think to be a cult leader
22:37:34 <zzo38> There are many religious texts, with contain some good things, but you should not take them on blind faith, whether I told you to or not.
22:58:15 <Sgeo> Should we take on blind faith that we shouldn't take religious texts on blind faith even if you tell us?
22:58:57 <zzo38> That is for you to figure out.
23:03:54 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:08:42 <mnoqy> hey Sgeo could you explain `slist for a friend of mine? i don't think i'd be able to do it justice
23:09:12 <Sgeo> It's a list of people who want to be notified when Homestuck updates.
23:09:34 <Sgeo> If a Homestuck fan notices an update, they can ping the other Homestuck fans that way
23:09:55 <Sgeo> Also, several of the people are the same people and I think one doesn't even exist
23:14:27 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
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23:27:30 <olsner> 93% of ASCII is still not mapped to any bot
23:28:35 <fizzie> (aka ^C) - the best prefix.
23:28:39 <zzo38> olsner: It isn't necessary for all of them to have a single ASCII character prefix really; some may accept commands only in private, some may require their name and a colon and space to send a command in public, some may not accept commands at all, etc.
23:32:17 <zzo38> (And in a few cases it does not necessarily have to be unique.)
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01:49:25 <Sgeo> How can I run Java 6 safely?
01:53:20 <Bike> douse your computer in formaldehyde and intone SAG BA, SAG BA
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02:04:32 <zzo38> Do you have any binaries of Infocom's Z-machine interpreters for version 5 games (Beyond Zork, Zork I SG, and some others)?
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02:06:29 <HackEgo> scorpo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:52:09 <zzo38> I found the interpreter.
02:52:39 <zzo38> I already have the source-codes for the interpreters, so I know that there is a "/g" command-line option to override the name of the story file.
02:58:52 <zzo38> I have found out that it does not work if you put a space after "/g"; you have to put it directly after without the space, as in "bzork /gstory.z5"
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03:13:44 <tswett> So it's just like GCC.
03:18:37 <zzo38> O, is that how it works?
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04:18:13 <zzo38> I found a list of made up Nethack conduct in ifMUD. Here is some: * No diagonal moves. * Never killed non-uniques. * You never examined your inventory. * You only fought by throwing food. * No destruction of boulders, walls, and statues. * Never pick up precious metals/gems items. * Never drop or throw any item. * Never kill more than one of any kind of creature.
04:19:08 <zzo38> Or there is one "Shakespeare challenge": Kill monsters only in the order to make up the text of Hamlet (case-insensitive; non-letters ignored).
04:19:34 <Bike> has anyone done that
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04:20:28 <quintopia> is there a monster for every letter?
04:20:39 <zzo38> In Nethack, I think there is.
04:27:54 <coppro> there are lower case "i"s, though
04:27:55 <Bike> you don't need every case, tho
04:28:07 <coppro> "I" is pretty common in written texts, it turns out
04:28:13 <zzo38> I have said case-insensitive for these reason.
04:28:29 <coppro> also, there's a problem: your first kill needs to be a w. good luck
04:29:46 <shachaf> purple worm is also p. ouch imo
04:29:55 <shachaf> Anyway, you can win without killing a single monster.
04:30:01 <shachaf> So I'm sure this is doable.
04:30:34 <zzo38> Can you win if your companions also never kill anyone? (This also means you have to somehow stop them without killing them)
04:30:35 <coppro> if you're allowing pets, etc. then sure
04:31:05 <coppro> zzo38: possibly, theoretically. in practice not a chance
04:31:11 <coppro> (then again, prove me wrong)
04:31:28 <Bike> don't you have to kill rodney or something
04:31:31 <zzo38> Or if, you and your companions never kill any non-uniques; killing uniques is considered OK. Is this easier?
04:31:45 <coppro> extinction is a huge problem
04:32:00 <coppro> Bike: you can polyself into a nymph and steal
04:32:01 <elliott> Bike: you can get items you need by stealing them e.g. as a succubus
04:32:29 <Bike> i've only ever gotten up to like dlevel 14 V_V
04:32:50 <elliott> in AceHack I once stole the Candelabrum from Vlad as a succubus and then beat him to death with it, that was pretty good
04:33:00 <elliott> btw NetHack is bad & don't play it
04:33:00 <CADD> Bike: well thats better than me, ive never played nethack
04:33:11 <shachaf> don't you think a candelabrum is overkill for vlad
04:33:13 <coppro> the #1 way to get monsters of a specific kind doesn't work if they're extinct, so you will find trying to kill millions of monsters in a specific order to be rather painful
04:33:18 <Bike> what if i don't play you, elliott
04:33:19 <coppro> shachaf: yeah that's almost a real weapon
04:33:34 <elliott> shachaf: well, I had like 30 HP.
04:33:39 <elliott> due to the succubus selfpoly.
04:33:48 <elliott> I had to cast healing like twenty times to not die to him.
04:34:09 <coppro> elliott: don't you just die as a succubus and revert to full health?
04:34:21 <coppro> I think my favourite vladbane is a wand of wishing
04:34:43 <coppro> you can use it to access just about any weapon, spell, or even combination of them that you could possibly want
04:34:55 <coppro> so logically the correct way to employ this tool is to whack vlad with it
04:35:06 <zzo38> coppro: Is it possible if you modify the game so there is no extinction (and instead makes it like ADOM where newly generated creature of the same kind has more levels, but your experience points are the same either way)?
04:35:20 <shachaf> What if wishing is silver?
04:35:21 <coppro> zzo38: you could even modify the game so that you were playing chessrogue instead
04:35:27 <shachaf> Wait, does silver even do anything to vampires?
04:35:38 <shachaf> What if wishing is wood and you whack Vlad's heart with it?
04:35:49 <coppro> shachaf: if silver, it's complete overkill
04:36:17 <Bike> so how do you peeps like
04:36:20 <Bike> play this stuff
04:36:45 <shachaf> Bike: You should play NetHack even though it's kind of awful.
04:36:51 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, I suppose you could, but then you should play chessrogue instead. I mean variants of Nethack.
04:36:58 <Bike> like how do you get to the point of actually succeeding.
04:36:59 <elliott> what you do is stop playing and then reminisce about it instead, which ismuch more enjoyable
04:37:06 <CADD> dwarf fortress? another game i have never played..
04:37:21 <coppro> I strongly recommend NH4 instead
04:37:30 <zzo38> Do plutonium wands give you radiation poisoning in this game?
04:37:31 <coppro> and then report bugs and stuff
04:37:33 <Bike> i have like two hundred dead scores before level 15, elliott
04:37:39 <elliott> it's much more about memorising tricks than any kind of strategic or tactical skill
04:37:47 <Bike> ok i was afraid of that.
04:37:56 <Bike> are other roguesss better about that
04:38:05 <shachaf> all computer games are bad
04:38:15 <Bike> because the only other one i've played is, uh, i think Chocobo's Dungeon
04:38:16 <zzo38> shachaf: No, there are a few good ones.
04:38:23 <elliott> Bike: yes, quite significantly; I recommend brogue
04:38:36 <Bike> which i mean was fun, but also chocobo.
04:38:37 <coppro> Bike: although nethack is particularly bad
04:38:39 <CADD> shachaf: couldnt agree more.
04:38:41 <elliott> sil is also good though I haven't played it as much as I should and crawl is also okay and very popular though imperfect and getting worse
04:39:05 <coppro> Bike: part of the problem is that it has now been two decades since the last nethack release
04:39:09 <coppro> so the game is solved through and through
04:39:22 <Bike> yeah ok i know how creepy nethack people are, e.g. the above conversation
04:39:42 <elliott> Bike: but brogue is pretty good in that it is both accessible and also balanced enough to be interesting.
04:39:49 <coppro> NH4 is the most mature project to fix that but it's very far off
04:39:58 <elliott> and also games don't take five years
04:39:58 <CADD> Bike: come play with my +69 staff of penetration..
04:40:05 <quintopia> shachaf: i greatly enjoy a large number of computer games. can they be bad and enjoyable also?
04:40:10 <Bike> well i'll look at brogue i guess.
04:40:23 <Bike> god knows something less pointless than nethack would be nice to play
04:40:32 <Bike> on my shitty-ass computer that can't handle textmode games
04:40:37 <CADD> Bike: dwarf fortress?
04:40:47 <Bike> not really text mode
04:40:54 <CADD> i thought it was?
04:40:54 <coppro> the biggest flaw in NH design is that it both assumes you have no spoilers in a lot of places while also making spoilers /nearly/ mandatory elsewhere
04:40:55 <Bike> also i'd just like, kill everybody.
04:41:01 <CADD> well, im not a gamer so idk..
04:41:01 <Bike> i think it uses opengl or something actually
04:41:09 <Bike> certainly not a terminal in any case
04:41:14 <elliott> you can run dwarf fortress in a terminal!
04:41:20 <coppro> unspoiled ascensions have been heard of, but I wouldn't want to do on
04:41:22 <CADD> i think its text based, but then they added sprite packs to make it easier to play
04:41:23 <elliott> though there's usually not much point
04:41:25 <zzo38> Did you try any of the computer games I made? Some may be good (others may be not as good as the others).
04:41:26 <Bike> is it like so- right.
04:41:32 <elliott> I mean it's exactly the same.
04:41:39 <elliott> but why would you bother, usually
04:41:41 <CADD> zzo38: id like too see
04:41:58 <Bike> the other obstacle to DF is that i have no idea how to get anywhere near starting
04:42:05 <CADD> zzo38: lol, i was actually taking a look at your page on esoteric.org. wow you wrote alot of languages
04:42:11 <elliott> the DF wiki has a nice guide
04:42:12 <Bike> i think last time i tried playing it stayed in worldgen for like three hours
04:42:13 <CADD> zzo38: and a lot of them are very interesting
04:42:17 <Bike> and i got bored
04:42:18 <elliott> it's not really a roguelike though...
04:42:27 <elliott> well, it has a roguelike (adventure mode) but it's no fun to play
04:42:30 <Bike> more of a killdorfslike, i'm given to understand
04:42:38 <zzo38> CADD: Yes, you can write also a comment on there, and/or other comment on here, whatever
04:42:40 <elliott> though everyone should see its combat menus at least once
04:42:56 <Bike> i kind of like just reading about df which is a problem
04:43:09 <Bike> i like the stories about dorfs carving pictures of burning elephants all over everything
04:43:09 <zzo38> CADD: If you want to try my game, what kind of computer/operating-systems do you have or can emulator?
04:43:14 <Bike> very "postmodernist"
04:43:44 <shachaf> Is it Potion of Confusing?
04:44:13 <zzo38> CADD: Do you have any programs to emulate any other kinds of computers/operating systems?
04:44:17 <CADD> zzo38: hmm, i just took a look again. i was most enamoured by twoducks and 2d-reverse.
04:44:20 <CADD> zzo38: yeah vbox
04:45:05 <CADD> zzo38: i kind of have a thing for multi-D langs.
04:45:31 <CADD> zzo38: but twoducks is just super cool
04:47:39 <zzo38> CADD: You can try http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/cgacoll2.zip, cgacoll1.zip, cgacoll.zip, and 100level.zip, which are DOS; xnazzyball.zip, which is Windows; /zmachine/examples/solter.zip, which is Z-machine (an interpreter is at /zmachine/aimfiz.zip and should run on any computer with SDL); and /mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip which is a MegaZeux file.
04:48:12 <CADD> zzo38: great, thanks!
04:49:23 <zzo38> Depending on the Linux distribution, you may find MegaZeux in its package manager. You may also find a Z-machine interpreter, although most of them are buggy so try Aimfiz instead which I believe is far more accurate than other Z-machine interpreters (even Infocom's interpreters have bugs in them).
04:50:04 <CADD> k, installing megazeux
04:51:49 <zzo38> Also try /nes_program/hangman.zip for Famicom Hangman (you will need a NES/Famicom emulator); it is incomplete and not particularly good although it does have a time limit and a few other things.
04:53:01 <zzo38> After installing MegaZeux, depending on the package, you might get a screen that says "Software Visions". If you do, you will need to push F3 and select the "Potion of Confusing" world file instead.
04:55:05 <zzo38> (You might not get that screen, though, depending on the package.)
04:56:59 <CADD> hmm, seems like all the packages are stale
04:57:45 <zzo38> CADD: That might be OK; the game might still work.
04:59:14 <CADD> nope. seems not.. hmm
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05:00:22 <zzo38> Do you get an error message about the version? If not, then there is a different problem. You can ignore it for now and try a different game, if you prefer. (You can also try not using the package manager, and instead downloading MegaZeux from somewhere else.)
05:00:28 <CADD> zzo38: do you think dosbox would do the trick?
05:00:40 <CADD> zzo38: no, there is a compilation error
05:00:47 <zzo38> CADD: For running DOS programs, DOSBox would probably work.
05:00:56 <CADD> zzo38: yeah, im getting a copy off the internet
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05:13:28 <zzo38> Which of these games are working for you now?
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05:23:13 <zzo38> Please tell me if you tried the other games.
05:25:02 <kmc> zzo38: your D&D game should have monsters called ghostly sentinels
05:25:06 <kmc> http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#dss-ilist-sentinel
05:25:29 <zzo38> kmc: Well, it doesn't, but thanks for telling me anyways.
05:25:48 <zzo38> My D&D game contains what I have recorded.
05:26:38 <coppro> observation: playing intense piano actually causes the heat generation in my wrists to become noticeable to the touch
05:27:19 <zzo38> coppro: What music did you play?
05:27:33 <zzo38> Is it electric or acoustic piano?
05:27:40 <coppro> zzo38: the invincibility music from mario at full speed, the right hand specifically
05:28:00 <zzo38> Did you play blindfolded with a thick blanket over the keys and your hands upsidedown?
05:28:03 <coppro> a digital piano, which has keys weighted to feel like an acoustic
05:28:48 <zzo38> I can't do that either, but apparently some people can.
05:29:36 <coppro> after doing this for a bit, which is really a literal muscle exercise rather than teaching any particular skills, my right wrist was noticeably warmer than my left
05:29:49 <zzo38> Did you play the piano with both hands?
05:30:06 <coppro> no, I was only doing the right
05:30:11 <coppro> (the left hand is boring anyway)
05:30:34 <zzo38> Well, that's why it is more noticeably warmer than your left.
05:31:17 <coppro> yes, of course. I know why. I was just surprised as to the fact that it was noticeable
05:34:36 <zzo38> Do you play the music with the book or just by your mind? I always use the book or paper, even the music I write by myself, I will write it on a paper.
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05:34:58 <zzo38> Do you know some things about music theory?
05:35:55 <zzo38> Do you ever make up your own music?
05:36:54 <zzo38> I made up symbols for cadences rather than writing out the entire words "perfect semi-closed" and so on.
05:37:38 <zzo38> I showed the teacher and she liked it too, although it isn't standard (I suggested telling the Royal Conservatory, but I don't know how well such thing would work anyways).
05:38:16 <coppro> It doesn't seem like a particularly useful notation
05:38:55 <coppro> a cadence is a sequence of chords, and we already have multiple notations for chords that are perfectly good at expressing cadences as well
05:39:19 <zzo38> Perfect (also called authentic) is "P", imperfect is "P" with a slash through it, plagal is "PL", and deceptive is "D" (there is no confusion with 500 because there is no such chords as 500). Closed is a circle around, semi-closed is a half-circle, and open is the plain letter.
05:39:55 <zzo38> I also used a slightly different notation for chords, because of the difficulty of uppercase/lowercase in hand-written notations. (The teacher liked that too.)
05:41:15 <coppro> the typical way of dealing with that is very straightforward: place serifs on capital Vs
05:41:18 <zzo38> Either the major/minor/augmented/dimished is implied, or if it is not implied, a symbol "+", "-", "x", or "o" is added to superscript. (In a major key it is usually implied.)
05:41:57 <zzo38> coppro: I didn't know that was the typical way.
05:42:14 <coppro> usually a "o" adds diminished, or a "ø" for a half-diminished (iirc) seventh
05:42:45 <coppro> augemented chords are rare enough that I don't recall the notation offhand
05:43:13 <zzo38> Yes, I still used the "o" for diminished. The book I used uses "x" for augmented, and I use this too. (Some people use "+" for augmented, causing confusion.)
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05:51:29 <zzo38> Do you sometimes write any notations for any of these things, or only read?
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06:04:23 <coppro> zzo38: I sometimes write
06:07:41 <CADD> zzo38: its 23:06 here
06:08:21 <zzo38> CADD: Yes, I know now I was trying to see the connection I didn't get an auto reply for a long time
06:08:38 <Bike> "Complete the following steps. 1. If you are using Internet Explorer 6 or 7, upgrade to a newer version of Internet Explorer." thanks, school
06:08:52 <CADD> zzo38: yeah, i accidentally dced.
06:09:22 <CADD> Bike: reminds me of: http://youtu.be/9mXe9nRiPHI
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06:32:45 <Sgeo> shachaf: http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/The_Order_of_the_Stick
06:39:36 <CADD> Sgeo: http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Haskell
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06:42:09 <kmc> CADD.win++
06:42:21 <kmc> /topic C++ fan club
06:42:52 <Taneb> `slist Jade, Dave, and the Mayor
06:42:54 <HackEgo> slist Jade, Dave, and the Mayor: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:50:30 <Sgeo> Does.... does Pharo seriously monkey-patch nil as part of its eval mechanism?
06:51:09 <Bike> purple monkey dishwasher
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07:26:48 <zzo38> CADD: I have read some stuff in Uncyclopedia before.
07:27:22 <CADD> zzo38: its mildy humorous.
07:27:53 <zzo38> Do you play chess and/or any chess variants?
07:28:10 <CADD> yes, i used to be part of chess club
07:28:21 <CADD> um ive played quite a few chess variants
07:28:35 <zzo38> Have you invented any chess variants?
07:28:38 <CADD> big fan of the 3d chess, im currently undefeated in that variant. lol
07:29:00 <zzo38> I have invented many.
07:29:28 <CADD> http://www.chessvariants.org/
07:29:32 <CADD> big fan of that site
07:29:40 <CADD> im guessing you might have them on there?
07:29:59 <zzo38> And a TeX file for writing chess diagrams and moves including many chess variants too (although it can also be used with FIDE).
07:30:03 <zzo38> Yes I do have them on there.
07:30:27 <CADD> neat, i would love to check them out
07:30:37 <zzo38> CADD: If you select "Advanced Search" from the "Games" menu, that form is also mine.
07:30:59 <Taneb> Didn't someone here write a game that was isomorphic to chess while seeming completely different?
07:31:07 <CADD> hey, i see your UN
07:31:15 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, I think I did.
07:31:30 <zzo38> Taneb: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSeeeeeeeeeeeeee
07:32:02 <CADD> i didnt copy it right
07:33:08 <zzo38> Some of these chess variants are partially (or entirely) made up by my brother, although most are mine.
07:33:46 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchesswithcheck is one that myself and my brother both knew the rules to before we discussed them.
07:34:44 <CADD> i was actually just taking a look at that one
07:34:49 <CADD> that a nice and simple variant
07:35:00 <CADD> the rules are almost obvious, lol
07:35:24 <zzo38> I made up 123456 Chess [MS123456chess] due to a chess/checkers/backgammon portable set I got, so I invented a game using its pieces.
07:36:24 <zzo38> Chess with Quantum Bishops [MSchesswithquant] has an unknown inventor; I was told about it by someone else who also doesn't know the inventor.
07:39:16 <zzo38> I have made many others too.
07:42:50 <zzo38> CADD: Which of my computer games are working on your computer now? I also made this http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MLgiveawaychessp
07:43:20 <CADD> zzo38: lol, i got totally distracted by my lisp interpreter im writing.
07:43:35 <CADD> zzo38: can you say vau?
07:44:03 <CADD> zzo38: http://klisp.org/
07:44:07 <CADD> zzo38: based on that
07:44:10 <zzo38> O, you are writing a Lisp interpreter? In what programming language? Will you post it afterward?
07:44:21 <CADD> zzo38: yup, in haskell. sure.
07:44:31 <CADD> zzo38: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/%7Ejshutt/kernel.html
07:44:36 <CADD> that should explain it
07:44:59 <zzo38> O, I can see $vau in the example.
07:45:15 <CADD> mhm. its very cool
07:45:26 <CADD> so what he did was break up lambda into two funtions
07:45:44 <CADD> vau is kind of like a macro, it takes its arguments unevaluates
07:45:51 <CADD> and then wrap evaluates it
07:46:04 <CADD> and you can implement lambda in terms of vau
07:48:16 <kmc> fexpr fan club
07:48:40 <kmc> <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
07:49:16 <CADD> kmc: have you checked out wat.js?
07:49:36 <kmc> what does that have to do with fexprs though
07:49:56 <CADD> wat uses fexprs
07:50:05 <CADD> https://github.com/manuel/wat-js
07:50:49 <CADD> i thought it was a pretty lulzy implementation of a klisp-ish language
08:04:55 <coppro> huh, I have discovered a fact about a tv episode not on imdb
08:05:00 <coppro> I feel like a victory has occurred
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08:50:50 <CADD> kmc: wait http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/ is your blog?
08:50:54 <CADD> kmc: i love your blog!
08:51:14 <CADD> cheeky name too!
08:54:28 <CADD> kmc: (sorry, did a bit of internet stalking. lol)
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09:04:26 <kmc> yes that's me
09:04:30 <kmc> glad you like it
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12:03:33 <olsner> I love how forth lets you write begin/while/until/else/then and begin/while/while/repeat/then loops (and unlimited other combinations of those control words)
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12:05:40 <olsner> after reading http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpansa3.htm#A.3.2.3.2 I almost understand how it works too
12:07:34 <katla> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/11/from-monoids-to-monads.html
12:13:09 <katla> > It'd be cool if this was a product in the usual categorical sense, but it isn't.
12:13:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input `if'
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12:25:00 <katla> so you replace product in the definition of monoid with 'very weak thing that's apparently sort of a of product'
12:25:35 <katla> this is more BS than when the introduced imaginary numbers
12:38:05 <CADD> katla: if you like forth, you will probably love factor
12:38:19 <CADD> katla: <3 dataflow combinators <3
12:40:38 <katla> <aristid> S_J: turing completeness relies on general recursion, which cannot be proven to halt (see: halting problem)
12:40:41 <katla> this is a canned response right?
12:40:47 <katla> like he has a command that types it out for him
12:41:17 <Jafet> There is no effective method that can determine whether any IRC message is canned.
12:43:16 <katla> 0 people in #haskell helped me with how does monad relate to monoid but everyone jumps in to help with 'y cant agda turing machine'
12:45:51 <olsner> this suggests that one of those questions is harder to answer than the other one, hth
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14:38:12 <oerjan> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- thor's mother -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(*2))$1
14:38:13 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
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14:49:18 <oerjan> sigfpe's blog still gives me a virus warning, i see
14:52:52 <CADD> oerjan: gotta love windows.. :)
14:54:07 <oerjan> well surely he shouldn't be having viruses on his website hth
14:54:31 <oerjan> (no idea whether the warning is true or not)
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14:56:32 <CADD> yeah most anti-viri are very on the false-positive side
14:56:32 <oerjan> although it's been there for years
14:56:38 <CADD> for a good reason
14:56:53 <CADD> its probably not his site, just your anti-virus
14:57:07 <CADD> sice i love that blog, and i dont think ive ever gotten anything from it
14:57:54 <oerjan> i changed to a new computer recently, although i guess windows defender might descend from mse enough to have the same false hits
14:58:25 <CADD> hmm.. yeah as a linux user i usually use preventative measures like noscript and et. al.
14:58:42 <oerjan> and i don't recall whether i got a virus warning with avg back when i was using that.
14:59:36 <CADD> hmm, i remember avg serving me well when i used to run windows
15:00:04 <CADD> man, i need to go to more sec cons, so i can get more free kaperski licenses.. :)
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15:09:37 <olsner> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- Jörð -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(>>=)(+)($))$1 -- updated version, oerjan
15:09:39 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
15:10:19 <oerjan> i do recall we discussed who was thor's mother last that came up
15:14:15 <olsner> I think the difference is Jörð and (>>=)(+)($) instead of (*2)
15:28:17 <Vorpal> Hm tup seems broken with distcc:
15:28:18 <Vorpal> distcc[6466] (dcc_get_top_dir) Warning: HOME is not set; can't find distcc directory
15:30:10 <Deewiant> 'export HOME' in your tupfile IIRC, I don't know if you can set it globally
15:30:31 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm bootstrapping tup on my rpi so this is superannoying
15:31:02 <Deewiant> find -name Tupfile -exec sed -i '1i export Home' \; or whatever
15:32:18 <Vorpal> Ah yes with the {} added
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15:33:32 <nooodl> > length<$>(groupBy(/=).fix)show
15:33:41 <nooodl> > take 20 $ length<$>(groupBy(/=).fix)show
15:33:42 <lambdabot> [2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,26...
15:42:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, google is really not helpful at all :/
15:43:06 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Read the tup manpage, it's all there
15:43:18 <Vorpal> Oh, right, why did I check google first
15:43:41 <Deewiant> And post on tup-users if there's no way to configure it globally
15:44:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I suspect HOME has to be set to something on the fuse file system or such maybe
15:44:38 <Vorpal> Since that didn't work
15:45:05 <Deewiant> Well if it still said "HOME is not set" then it just didn't work at all
15:45:38 <Deewiant> It should be able to access files outside its file system though, I think
15:45:58 <Vorpal> How did I do revert in git now again? As in revert a list of file names to a clean state for the working directory
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15:48:53 <Vorpal> Hm okay so now I get this error instead: distcc[7746] (dcc_build_somewhere) Warning: failed to distribute, running locally instead. Weird since I just checked with make in another project and that worked fine
15:49:15 <Deewiant> It's probably missing another environment variable but it's not telling you which one
15:54:18 <Vorpal> Does tup block sockets with some ld preload stuff or something?
15:54:47 <Deewiant> I don't think tup does the ld preload stuff anymore, it replaced it with the fuse system
15:55:25 <Vorpal> I specifically get "gcc: error: whatever.c: operation not permitted" for all whatever.c as far as I can tell
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16:10:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, checking with wireshark, looks like the connection is *sometimes* made under tup, but never sends the actual file data. Sometimes no connection is even made
16:11:06 <Vorpal> Yeah I guess I can't use tup yet, I need distcc when testing on the RPi, way to slow otherwise.
16:19:17 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yeah I tried with env -i setting only HOME and PATH, that works just fine to compile a test file
16:19:21 <Vorpal> it is something else that breaks it
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16:56:33 <zzo38> I seem to remember once some computer game my brother made in MegaZeux had a room with a professor who, when you talked to them, said "Hello, I didn't see you there." and then "O no! I pushed the 'D' button! That makes the room explosive!" and then the professor dies and game over. (Actually pushing the 'D' key during the game has no function.)
17:09:32 <zzo38> How well will ARCFOUR work when you are modulo some other number (that isn't necessarily a power of two)?
17:09:54 <Bike> oh, this is hl2, i wasn't sure
17:11:05 <Bike> "prelapsarian", nice word
17:13:10 <Bike> well that was weird.
17:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i hear valve might be behind it (i haven't really looked into it)
17:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> https://twitter.com/MarcLaidlaw/status/334424382522941443
17:14:52 <Bike> it is pretty viral-market-y, but hints at the future existence of HL3, which is obviously impossible
17:15:23 <zzo38> Like FreeCell, Solter Solitaire is a solitaire card game with no hidden information.
17:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, eh, i'm happy with it just being a little project he did to continue his story
17:15:53 <Bike> yeah it's nice
17:16:09 <Bike> reminds me of MINERVA
17:17:17 <Bike> it would be nice if episode 3 had the minerva guy's level design
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17:50:39 <Bike> "I don't want to start an epic flaming napalm screaming fight, but the short version is your position is completely retarded"
17:53:09 <zzo38> Can you answer this question? If the PC of one of your game(s) came to life and tried to kill you, how would they do it?
17:54:16 <zzo38> And in what game, specifically?
17:55:13 <Bike> just one of my plot bunnies
17:55:31 <zzo38> What is plot bunnies?
17:56:10 <shachaf> zzo38: Is your brother similar to you?
17:56:22 <zzo38> shachaf: Similar to me in what way?
17:56:25 <Bike> a "plot bunny" is a kind of rabbit that lives in my basal ganglion and yells about urumqi.
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17:56:34 <zzo38> And did you make a game called "Monoids: The Game"?
17:57:22 <shachaf> Well, I don't know. Never met him.
17:57:39 <zzo38> Then I don't know the answer either.
17:57:54 <zzo38> If you don't know the answer of my question.
17:59:25 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, making computer games in MegaZeux is one thing.
17:59:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, although both of us also use other systems (and he doesn't use MegaZeux anymore, actually).
18:00:25 <shachaf> You also make chess variants.
18:00:25 <zzo38> However, his games usually have graphics and my games usually don't have graphics.
18:00:38 <shachaf> Does he make esoteric languages?
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18:01:10 <zzo38> shachaf: Just one, called "QWERTY Keyboard Dotty Language".
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18:03:17 <zzo38> The question about the PC of your games trying to kill you is from ifMUD; it is in the ifMUD library (you can walk there, or you can teleport there by typing 'library').
18:03:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Has he ever been in here?
18:03:50 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so.
18:04:12 <zzo38> I tried to telephone him to ask him just now, but it is busy.
18:06:25 <fizzie> Frumble grumble nothing ever works right.
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18:07:32 <fizzie> Installed some new components, and now (a) an old HD does not appear when it's inside the box (even in a SATA port w/ cables that work for another disk), but works fine in an external USB case; and the machine won't boot an Ubuntu DVD but has no qualms about booting a Windows 8 DVD.
18:07:43 <fizzie> (And I've disabled the Secure Boot thing.)
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18:19:22 <fizzie> Is there a reason why growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/dvd=image.iso 'ing an Ubuntu image on a DVD+RW disc (in particular) would be unbootable?
18:19:29 <HackEgo> slist doof: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
18:19:33 <fizzie> Like some sort of +RW extra-magic.
18:21:21 <zzo38> I think it must be because it is +RW, but I don't know much about that. You have to use -R instead, I think. (I have a DVD recorder which won't play menus on +RW discs (I read the manual; I don't have any +RW discs); so this must be why.)
18:22:14 <fizzie> Maybe it'd boot from a USB stick so I could circumvent that requirement.
18:22:28 <zzo38> You could try that.
18:39:45 <fizzie> Hrm. Well. It booted from the USB stick, displayed a boot menu, but the "try Ubuntu" option is not working very well. There's just a one-pixel wide pink line on the left edge of screen.
18:41:31 <fizzie> Oh, it's still doing something. Well, maybe my USB stick is just very slow.
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19:17:03 <Taneb> Is anyone here to quickly translate something into Swedish?
19:17:28 <Taneb> "How goes the [learning of the] Swedish [language]"
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19:24:28 <fizzie> "Hur går svenskan?" (Disclaimer: a Finn speaking.)
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19:53:32 <Chris__> In combinatory logic, is there a one-point basis which does not contain abstraction? The iota comabintor, "X", is a one-point basis defined as (\x.x S K), however both S and K are abstractions.
19:54:26 <Bike> what do you mean by "abstraction", i'm unfamiliar
19:54:56 <elliott> i.e. (\x. ...) where ... doesn't contain any lambda abstractions itself.
19:55:05 <elliott> I guess you could allow (\x y. ...) if you're feeling generous
19:57:14 <Chris__> Actually, (\x y. ...) is acceptable if none of the arguments are applied to an abstraction, in the same way that S does not apply any of its 3 arguments to an abstraction (\xyz.xz(yz)).
19:57:49 <elliott> Chris__: sure. but (\x y. ...) is (\x. (\y. ...)) so you can argue about whether it contains an abstraction.
19:58:03 <elliott> presumably there are formal definitions for and theorems about this and I just don't know them. too bad oerjan isn't here
19:59:00 <Chris__> You're right, it does contain an abstraction. I should rephrase my question to whether or not there is a one-point basis which does not apply any of its arguments to an abstraction.
19:59:38 <Bike> there's nothing else to apply to, is there?
19:59:58 <Chris__> Other arguments, just like S does.
20:01:15 <elliott> technically (\x. x x S) or such wouldn't apply any of its arguments to an abstraction. but yes, it's clear what you mean :P
20:02:06 <Bike> yeah, i see, you want a one-basis combinator where the text of the abstraction is only applications and references
20:02:20 <Bike> S is an abstraction, so, yeah
20:02:33 <Chris__> Maybe one of you will know if what I'm trying to do is even possible. I'm trying to construct a programming language based on combinatory logic which takes as input some expression containing only applications of a one-point combinator (e.g. X(X X)(X (X X))) and outputs the normal form of it.
20:03:06 <Chris__> I know this is possible with 2 combinators, S and K of course. But I'm trying to think of how to do it with just 1.
20:04:17 <Bike> i wonder if you could use a language-based argument there somehow
20:04:34 <Chris__> What do you mean by a language-based argument?
20:05:31 <Bike> some vague idea based on all wffs in this being completely described by a CFG, i dunno
20:05:47 <elliott> Chris__: look at iota/jot.
20:06:01 <elliott> http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Iota/
20:06:08 <Chris__> elliott, I have, and I wrote an interpreter for Jot, haha.
20:07:10 <Bike> so why do you want no abstractions?
20:07:28 <Bike> i mean, iota is already applications+one combinator
20:07:53 <elliott> Bike: yeah but there's something hacky to it.
20:08:05 <elliott> like, S and K are "abstraction-free" in this sense.
20:08:17 <elliott> iota "feels" like it's just bundling S and K without actually simplifying the bundle.
20:08:54 <Chris__> Both Iota and Jot output lambda expressions, not sequences of 1s and 0s. I'm looking for a language like Jot (input is a binary string) which outputs a binary string, not a lambda expression.
20:09:24 <Chris__> There are ways to encode lambda expressions into binary strings (e.g. de Bruijn indices), but that's not quite what I'm looking for.
20:10:23 <Bike> i'm imagining iota but with one combinator "c" (i'm so clever) with n arguments, and you want to say that the normal form of cx...x is just itself if there are less than n x's
20:10:42 <Chris__> I'm looking for something like input: S, K, and parentheses (or `, the application operator), which gets reduced to another CL expression containing S, K, and parentheses, and the output is the binary encoding of that.
20:10:43 <Bike> which allows "initial" lambda abstraction but not, like, something else
20:12:21 <Chris__> Yes, in the same way that the normal form of (S x y) is (S x y).
20:12:58 <Chris__> All I need is a one-point combinator that has reduction rules which do not contain other combinators
20:14:16 <Chris__> Such that the input CL expression gets reduced to another CL expression in normal form, and both expressions contain 2 symbols. One would be the application operator, and the other would be the one-point combinator that I'm looking for.
20:14:54 <Chris__> SK is very close, but it uses 2 combinators instead of 1.
20:21:35 <Chris__> Any ideas? I tried coming up with the reduction rules for X which do not result in expressions containing S or K. For example, even though `X`X`XX reduces to K, I would leave the expression unreduced. However, ``XXX reduces to X, and that does not contain S or K so the reduced expression is written as X.
20:21:36 <Bike> *ii -> iSK -> SSKK -> SK(KK) normal form, right i got this straight in my head now
20:22:08 <Bike> i'm slow, i apologize :p
20:22:39 <Chris__> No worries, I have spent many hours learning this myself
20:26:21 <Bike> i'm still thinking of this in language terms... the language of normal SK forms is unrestricted, i think?
20:26:36 <Chris__> What does unrestricted mean?
20:27:46 <Bike> an unrestricted grammar. basically any machine that can recognize the language (distinguish it from badly formed formulas) would be turing
20:29:04 <Chris__> Oh, I believe so. Some SK expressions have no normal form, and are infinite loops essentially.
20:30:04 <Bike> oh. right. that means not having a normal form, not... right ok
20:33:37 <Chris__> Intuitively, it seems like a language consisting of some one-point combinator + application operator should exist, but I haven't found such a thing anywhere.
20:34:14 <Bike> how's the intuition work?
20:34:29 <Chris__> The one-point combinators are always defined in terms of abstractions or other combinators.
20:34:50 <Bike> well, i guess bitstring to bitstring functions are ill-behaved enough
20:34:56 <Sgeo> Liquid War seems like a great game marred by shit execution
20:35:05 <elliott> my intuition is that you need abstractions inside for one combinator thingy
20:35:45 <Chris__> I mean that the I combinator can be rewritten in terms of S and K, then S and K can be rewritten in terms of some X combinator.
20:36:08 <Bike> that's pretty flimsy
20:36:15 <Chris__> Bike, what do you mean by ill-behaved?
20:36:36 <Bike> potentially uncomputable
20:37:32 <Bike> you want it to be uncomputable in a particular way though, since e.g. any tritstring starting with SII`SII has no normal form
20:37:47 <Bike> (where I is replaced with the SK definition obv)
20:38:25 <Chris__> Right, ```SII``SII has no normal form
20:39:12 <Sgeo> Are there any good alternatives to Liquid war>
20:39:16 <Bike> i mean that's like having a function where having so-and-so low order trits in the input means derp uncomputable
20:39:28 <Sgeo> Or has the OSS community decided that since the project exists, there's no need to make a better one?
20:41:22 <Chris__> Bike, I don't think there is anything wrong with that
20:41:53 <Chris__> Having those low-order trits means the expression is uncomputable
20:42:13 <Bike> oh. yeah sure. i'm sort of thinking to myself in three different formalisms at once because i'm stupid
20:43:24 <Chris__> I suppose I could do with tritstrings, but it would be very cool to reduce it to bitstrings (without simply encoding trits to bits, like ` = 00, S = 01, and K = 10)
20:43:57 <Chris__> Because then what do you do with 11? It seems odd to have one undefined encoding
20:46:28 <Bike> would something as stupid as taking a three-combinator basis instead work
20:47:07 <Chris__> Lol, yes but a one-combinator basis would be better than either 2 or 3
20:47:20 <Chris__> Maybe not "better", but "simpler" in my mind
20:47:47 <Bike> no i mean, if you had a three combinator basis you could encode it as a bitstring and get a 1-combinator thing out of that? i think?
20:48:15 <Chris__> I'm not sure if I follow that
20:48:58 <Chris__> 3-combinator basis like SKI? Plus application ` is 4? So that 00 to 11 have meaning?
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20:51:41 <Bike> i mean, encode SKI` as a bitstring, then find a way to treat 0 and 1 as combinators
20:51:44 <Bike> i dunno if that works.
20:53:20 <Bike> well maybe BCL
20:53:39 <Chris__> BCL simply encodes lambda expressions, but individual 1s and 0s don't mean anything
20:54:22 <fizzie> elliott: olsner: Also how about an #esoteric meetup at Alternative Party instead? It's smaller. (Also sillier.)
20:54:41 <olsner> fizzie: what/when/where is that?
20:55:10 <fizzie> olsner: It's here in October 18th-to-20th.
20:55:11 <Chris__> It would be cool if each 1 and 0 was a combinator, and the output is the normal form
20:55:17 <Bike> Chris__: what do you mean by "don't mean anything"
20:55:43 <fizzie> There's approximately zero information about this year's event, except that there'll be one.
20:56:00 <Chris__> in BLC, I believe abstraction is 00, application is 01, and an index n is 1^n0. A 0 by itself isn't any of those 3 things
20:56:37 <fizzie> (They stopped organizing it last year because they thought it was getting far too mainstream; instead, they focused on more alternative things; turns out, though, that if they're alternative enough, no-one's going to attend, and then you don't have anyone pay the bills.)
20:56:43 <Bike> actually it's this thing http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binary_combinatory_logic
20:56:55 <Bike> which is pretty much encoded ski i guess
20:57:05 <olsner> "Alternative Party is one of the largest demo parties in Finland." according to wikipedia
20:57:33 <Bike> but i mean, what you're talking about there is just your interpretation, why can't there be another one?
20:57:38 <fizzie> olsner: Well, that's not saying all that much; everything's that not Assembly is tiny compared to that.
20:57:51 <fizzie> olsner: It's a proper (non-gaming) party, though.
20:58:27 <Chris__> Bike, yeah that is almost exactly what I'm looking for, but such that S and K are replaced by one combinator
20:58:50 <fizzie> olsner: You can peruse the archive at http://ry.altparty.org/action/ -- you can scroll down a bit to find the 2002-2011 pages.
21:00:09 <fizzie> olsner: (Though it's somewhat likely this year's event will be something rather different.)
21:00:12 <Bike> Chris__: see, you're putting interpretations on it
21:00:37 <Chris__> Bike, I was thinking instead of SK`, use X`. The only thing I don't know is how to reduce expressions of the X combinator without introducing S and K.
21:01:06 <elliott> fizzie: still sounds a bit scary!!
21:01:11 <elliott> maybe if Bike there is to comfortingly kidnap me.
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21:07:44 <fizzie> "finish=30756.4min" best initial raid-1 resync ever. (I'm doing a thing while it's running, and it only uses idle I/O.)
21:08:47 <fizzie> I shared a pic I took somewhere. (I'm sure there are more official ones.)
21:09:53 <olsner> 21 days? pretty fast raid resync
21:10:18 <fizzie> olsner: It's back to 191.8min now.
21:10:56 <fizzie> olsner: It's based on the current speed, and it only does 1000 KB/s when there's no idle I/O time.
21:11:06 <fizzie> (It's doing 163938K/s now.)
21:11:23 <fizzie> I have no idea where I put my altparty pic.
21:11:51 <olsner> hmm, resyncing a mirror should probably have a bit higher priority, you have limited time until the second disk in the mirror breaks
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21:13:50 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, but it's the initial creation resync.
21:14:03 <fizzie> olsner: (Admittedly I think it's the same defaults for a non-initial resync.)
21:14:43 <fizzie> elliott: I, uh... I think this is from altparty http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/i-smoke.jpg but it's not all like that at all.
21:15:57 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/sunshine.jpg http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/sunshine2.jpg that's from there too.
21:16:11 <fizzie> (But it's not always that smoky.)
21:16:52 <elliott> it looks like something from a sci-fi film
21:18:57 -!- Chris__ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:19:45 <fizzie> Well, it's from 2010, and the theme that year was "Space: the forgotten frontier", so that's appropriate.
21:23:10 <fizzie> elliott: My wife told me to tell you that she's been there (which is true) and it's not scary (which is allegedly also true).
21:23:21 <fizzie> (It might not be terribly exciting, however.)
21:35:15 <elliott> fizzie: is your wife particularly invested in me visiting altparty for some reason :P
21:35:30 <elliott> or were you just like "HEY I'm talking about altparty in #esoteric do you have any INPUT"
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21:40:34 <fizzie> Well. I mentioned olsner's Assembly-meetup suggestion as a part of my regular report of things happening, and she suggested I should suggest altparty instead.
21:40:37 <fizzie> (Also perhaps she thinks it'd lessen the chances of having to go to Hexham? Who knows.)
21:43:45 <elliott> have you informed her of the abject horrors of hexham
21:43:59 <elliott> also it's super cute that you tell your wife about #esoteric happenings
21:51:58 <fizzie> I've told her there's a fine cathedral at Hexham, because that's p. much the extent of my knowledge in the field of Hexhamology.
21:55:53 <elliott> um not sure abbeys count as cathedrals
21:56:08 <oerjan> maybe they do in finland
21:57:55 <fizzie> elliott: Hexham Abbey is in Category:Anglo-Saxon cathedrals, that's close enough for me.
21:58:56 <elliott> how does your wife feel about trondheim
21:59:03 <elliott> two birds, one stone, etc.
21:59:37 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/52ffccf4adaeff692060308c70ea68d1/tumblr_mr10axwMKH1qklx3fo1_500.jpg
22:01:51 <fizzie> We was in Svolvær/Nordland somewhat recently, I think that was enough Norway for a few years.
22:09:08 <oerjan> <elliott> presumably there are formal definitions for and theorems about this and I just don't know them. too bad oerjan isn't here <-- i'd expect tromp_ is the resident expert on this stuff
22:09:42 <oerjan> although he seems rather idle at the moment
22:09:49 <Bike> elliott isn't an expert expert discriminator like shachaf can be
22:10:58 <oerjan> although i have certainly _looked_ at one-point bases for combinators before, i cannot quite recall whether this is impossible though, although none of the examples in wikipedia is of the right type
22:11:58 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing something more substantive than that. maybe it was tromp_'s paper.
22:12:20 <oerjan> (i'm certainly not bying access to that elsevier one)
22:12:33 <elliott> is oerjan boycotting elsevier too :P
22:12:52 <pikhq> fizzie: Initial creation resync and non-initial resyncs are effectively identical performance-wise.
22:12:55 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:12:59 <oerjan> well i might boycott elsevier if i _ever_ bought articles online.
22:13:13 <pikhq> Basically how that's done is considering one drive to be 100% failed and resyncing that.
22:15:13 <fizzie> pikhq: They *could* easily have differently tweaked speed_limit_min/max parameters, though.
22:16:54 <elliott> oerjan: it would seem fair for people with phds to get lifetime access to this stuff...
22:18:05 <fizzie> The copy of 700G from an external should-be-USB3-but-turns-out-to-run-at-480M-probably-because-there-were-some-low-speed-devices-in-the-same-internal-hub is the main bottleneck here, though. (It's running at about 42MB/s.)
22:18:35 <olsner> are you sure you plugged it into a usb3 socket?
22:20:51 <fizzie> olsner: And it's in one of the xhci ports. But I've vague recollections of something about SuperSpeed not being available if there are low-speed devices in the same branch of the tree. (And it wasn't really obvious how the ports are grouped.)
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22:24:48 <fizzie> (Or possibly it's just broken in some other way.)
22:26:51 <fizzie> The ISO I ended up booting with for these pre-installation operations (debian-7.10-netinst-amd64) also very nicely had an e1000e driver too old to support the onboard Intel NIC, so no SSH either. "Meh."
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22:27:56 <olsner> the latest debian is too old? what a surprise
22:28:46 <fizzie> You could argue that the Debian is "just fine" and it's just the hardware that's too new.
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22:38:12 <fizzie> For some reason I never think to worry about network card support, and now 2 out of the 2 last installs have had an "oh, no driver for the network chip?" surprise.
22:38:53 <elliott> fizzie: do you know about EFI support in virtual machines
22:39:37 <fizzie> Not really. I think it exists.
22:39:42 <Bike> when that chris person was here before did they have the same number of underscores
22:41:02 <Bike> ...that was them from before, right
22:41:46 <Bike> damn, it was "ChrisW"
22:42:42 <Bike> i forgot to mention the really obvious thing about prefix encoding.
22:43:28 <elliott> turns out there's just a billion chrisses who like the lambda calculus
22:44:33 <Bike> literally angry with rage here
22:45:05 <elliott> that. that's quite a common effect of rage
22:45:22 <olsner> are you sure you aren't just enraged with anger?
22:47:51 <Bike> well, anyway, he inspired me to write ski small step as an N -> N function and now i'm wondering about connections to dynamics. i need help
22:49:11 <Bike> i was /going/ to do something today, but i ended up just faffing about
22:50:47 <Bike> Anyway. Someone tell me the best way to get the number of digits of the base-b representation of a natural
22:50:59 <Bike> log doesn't work so great because like, rounding error, maaaaan
22:53:12 <olsner> you can probably estimate from the number of bits in the base-2 representation, and/or do a binary search to find the b^n <= your number
22:53:51 <olsner> or something like length . showIntAtBase perhaps
22:54:06 <Bike> that's what i'm doing right now. it's terrible and i hate it, imo
22:54:14 <Bike> might as well throw together binary search
22:54:33 <elliott> you could use logBase on CReal!
22:54:45 <lambdabot> 10.2691266791494178878629061634710448236888
22:54:47 <elliott> > logBase 10 1234 :: CReal
22:54:48 <lambdabot> 3.0913151596972228772592050619999463466528
22:55:04 <elliott> I don't know if logBase for CReal is precise but it should be.
22:55:12 <elliott> and then it's just a matter of rounding.
22:55:16 <Bike> "what's the O time"
22:55:35 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (abs n)) == length (show (abs n))
22:55:41 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (abs n)) == length (show (abs n))
22:55:44 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
22:55:52 <elliott> @check \(n::Integer) -> ceiling (logBase 10 (abs n)) == length (show (abs n))
22:55:52 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 15:ScopedTypeVariables is not enabled
22:56:20 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (fromInteger (abs n)) :: CReal) == length (show (abs n))
22:56:23 <lambdabot> (0 tests)mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:56:26 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (fromInteger (abs n)) :: CReal) == length (show (abs n))
22:56:30 <lambdabot> (0 tests)mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:56:32 <Bike> i <3 lambdabot
22:56:43 <elliott> I run this bot and I have no idea how it ever works or breaks or anything
22:57:01 <Bike> also the binary search thing might do kind of a lot of allocation with bignums, hm
22:57:27 <Bike> kind of wish i had generalizeder >>
22:58:03 <Bike> i guess that's kind of ass to compute isn't it
22:58:21 <elliott> anyway I think that CReal solution is theoretically optimal?
22:58:36 <elliott> I don't think you can get faster than length . show really, except for micro-optimisations
22:58:38 <Bike> computable real
22:59:39 <Bike> how's showIntAtBase work? just repeated division i imagine
22:59:59 <elliott> obviously you can skip the mod part.
23:01:38 <olsner> it sounds like you'd end up with some extra work that could be avoidable if you only want the length
23:02:03 <elliott> > let digits 0 = 0; digits n = 1 + digits (n `div` 10) in digits 1234
23:02:35 <Bike> i guess i'll try it with the largest b^n that fits in an immediate and laugh myself to sleep
23:03:42 <Bike> i forget haskell words. not a bignum
23:04:27 <elliott> Fiora: are there any fancy CPU tricks you can do to optimise (binary) digit counting?
23:04:40 <elliott> since I guess the only real gains you'll get here are low level
23:04:52 <elliott> though I guess counting up powers of 2 is asymptotically faster than repeated integer division?
23:04:54 <Bike> well it's basically clz.
23:05:16 <elliott> well, I was thinking for arbitrary size integers. but I guess it's repr-dependent
23:05:38 <Bike> don't most bignums keep a size? if so it's pretty easy
23:06:33 <Bike> this bignum is 372 64-bit words plus a head word with clz 19, so it has 23853 bits
23:06:49 <elliott> well, that's boring, so let's say it doesn't keep a size.
23:07:00 <elliott> just "one bit is 0 if it's the end and 1 if it's not" or whatever.
23:07:35 <Fiora> but it has to keep track of like, memory allocation and stuff, right?
23:07:39 <Bike> guess you just have to traverse them all then
23:08:06 <elliott> Fiora: well, you could just malloc it and then the data you'd need to cheat is hidden in the libc, I guess
23:08:17 <elliott> my mission: to make people's lives difficult
23:08:34 <elliott> I guess you'd just clz them anyway or whatever.
23:08:40 <CADD> elliott: so i have my own instance of lambdabot going. so to get around the mueval time out by just adding -t 3000 on the mueval line in ./src/Lambdabot/Config/Core.hs. is that kosher?
23:09:09 <Bike> ok new "exciting question" for elliott: find the digit count of a number, but the number is in modular residue format.
23:09:33 <Bike> instead of storing the number you store it mod 2, mod 3, mod 5, mod 7 ad infinitium
23:09:49 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:10:07 <CADD> elliott: i mean it worked, but is that the "proper" way to do it?
23:10:12 <Bike> e.g. 17 is [1,2,2,3].
23:11:09 <elliott> CADD: that sounds like an old version of lambdabot.
23:11:27 <CADD> really? i have 4.3?
23:11:35 <lambdabot> git clone git://github.com/mokus0/lambdabot.git
23:11:54 <CADD> cool, thanks! and thanks for the awesome bot!
23:12:12 <elliott> I didn't write it, I just run it :P
23:12:19 <Bike> Fiora: (this lets you represent any number up to the product of the modularssss by the chinese remainder theorem, aka the worst named theorem i can think of)
23:12:22 <CADD> oh, either way!
23:12:37 <Fiora> Bike: oooh. that's sneaky
23:12:54 <Bike> you can do multiplication and addition pretty easy since those commute with mod
23:20:50 <elliott> my control key keeps holding itself down
23:21:38 <Bike> that's what you get for not answering my randomly posed questions
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23:35:58 <Bike> what is the problem sir and/or ma'am and/or other appropriate honorific
23:43:19 <Jafet> Convert the number to radixal format hth
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23:55:20 <oerjan> Bike: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.28.6593&rep=rep1&type=pdf hth
23:55:40 <oerjan> (one of my favorite complexity results)
23:56:26 <Bike> why is this written like a news story
00:00:39 <oerjan> hmph http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.28.6593 is the summary page but the abstract is clearly broken.
00:01:43 <Jafet> “the following theorem shows that there is little hope of finding a substantially better method, since the range of a modular number depends essentially on all bits of all the residues (u_i, ..., u_r)”
00:02:47 <Jafet> (knuth then writes the theorem, which is too trivial to copy here)
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02:21:21 <Bike> oh, hey. the division result actually uses chinese remainder. how about that
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02:32:34 <kmc> "Actor Peter Capaldi has been announced as the new star of BBC sci-fi series Doctor Who... Capaldi is best known for his role as foul-mouthed spin-doctor Malcolm Tucker in the BBC series The Thick of It."
02:35:00 <Bike> yeah i've already seen a bunch of messages to the effect of "why would you have him play a character who can't curse"
02:37:01 <elliott> I think doctor who would probably be better with gratuitous swearing
02:42:09 <kmc> that seems clear
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04:55:59 <btiffin> Just bragged about small s.c.r.i.p.t. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Small_s.c.r.i.p.t.
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05:58:27 <shachaf> What is Ctrl <space> supposed to be doing in vim?
06:11:00 <Deewiant> Nothing, unless it's been mapped to something
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06:15:39 <Deewiant> http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/signal-safe-strcpy
06:17:54 <Bike> why would symlink be handler-safe when strcpy isn't
06:18:16 <Deewiant> Because it's specced that way, evidently
06:19:40 <Bike> i like the sem_post note
06:24:53 <coppro> huh, xkcd is actually funny again
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06:42:38 <kmc> how large is the second biggest connected component in the global sex graph
06:43:22 <Deewiant> Why the second biggest in particular
06:44:00 <kmc> well the biggest one is huge
06:45:08 <Bike> xkcd is on to shachaf
06:45:12 <coppro> and the vast majority of components will be size one or two
06:45:40 <kmc> the second biggest one is like the community most successful at being totally insular
06:45:44 <kmc> which makes it more interesting
06:45:50 <coppro> my guess would go to some gay community
06:46:06 <Bike> great, now i'm going to be wondering about sex connectivity instead of sleeping.
06:46:08 <kmc> the biggest connected component has a billion people probably
06:46:12 <coppro> Deewiant: probably most promiscuous individuals
06:46:27 <coppro> of any sex or orienation
06:46:37 <Deewiant> Combined with prostitutes, or something?
06:46:43 <Bike> i'll just sit here, a lone node
06:46:52 <kmc> prostitutes are usually fairly promiscuous yeah
06:46:56 <kmc> either that or they're not very good at their jobs
06:47:09 <coppro> kmc: I was going to say pretty much exactly that :(
06:47:28 <coppro> I'm pretty sure I'm in the big component
06:47:40 <coppro> even though I have low degree
06:47:42 <kmc> http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/
06:48:03 <kmc> coppro: me too
06:49:29 <Bike> thank god i can leave this to experts instead of speculating
06:49:37 <Bike> speaking of which: do slime molds form models of sex networks
06:50:58 <coppro> Bike: how old are you, anyway?
06:51:54 <kmc> I think there are almost 50 people within distance 2 of me, so I'm pretty sure I'm in the strong set
06:52:54 <Deewiant> Are you using a loose or traditional definition of what constitutes sex
06:53:29 <kmc> a reasonably strict definition i think
06:53:40 <Bike> that's only everybody having like seven partners, doesn't seem too implausible?
06:53:41 <kmc> hard to be too traditional without also being heteronormative
06:54:16 <coppro> I think I'm near some cycles, could be wrong though; don't tend to actually talk about it a lot
06:54:19 <Deewiant> For males there's a fairly traditional same-sex sex definition as well
06:54:43 <Deewiant> It's when you have only women that it gets tricky
06:54:56 <coppro> Deewiant: whichcan easily be extended to male-female yet usually is not
06:54:58 <Bike> wow, i had this exact conversation in high school.
06:55:02 <Bike> laughed my ass off then too
06:55:36 <Deewiant> coppro: Well there's already a traditional definition there
06:55:54 <Bike> and then got into a conversation about whether talking about talking about [..recursion..] sex was as dirty as talking about [..recursion..] sex. have all my conversations in life been prep for this channel
06:56:01 <coppro> I'm just observing that there is different standard there
06:56:22 <kmc> sex isn't dirty, hth
06:56:27 <coppro> especially when you consider those who do not engage in extramarital copulation, but will do basically anything else
06:56:38 <kmc> are there lots of these people
06:56:41 <Deewiant> Traditionally (and still typically AFAIK) the more traditional stuff happens first so you don't need to worry about whether the extension counts
06:56:54 <Bike> kmc: as a virgin in high school roughly everything is dirty
06:56:54 <coppro> kmc: I do not know how many, but they do exist
06:57:19 <coppro> Bike: that means you were being a virgin wrong
06:57:33 <Bike> i don't know what that means
06:57:56 * kmc is amused by Deewiant's traditional ordering
06:58:16 <coppro> Deewiant: indeed, but what of my example?
06:59:08 <Deewiant> coppro: Well they're an exception
06:59:25 <Deewiant> I don't know how common of a one
06:59:39 <Bike> sexologists on the case
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07:00:23 <Deewiant> Especially traditionally, they could be a more modern phenomenon (but I suspect not)
07:00:32 <Fiora> I think the proper response is along the lines of "anyone who debates over whether sex has to involve a penis probably has really really boring sex"
07:01:39 <Bike> kmc's all "yeah duh, you need at least four"
07:02:33 <Deewiant> Just trying to infer kmc's 'reasonably strict definition'
07:03:49 <kmc> look there is some cocksucking involved
07:03:52 <kmc> not gonna lie
07:04:30 <Deewiant> I was assuming it doesn't since that'd be somewhat looser a definition than is traditional
07:05:19 <kmc> I'm counting it
07:05:48 <Deewiant> That's pretty loose then I guess
07:05:53 <kmc> I think if afterward all parties agree "we had sex" then I think it should count
07:06:16 <Deewiant> But then the same act doesn't count depending on who you did it with
07:07:22 <Bike> you're sociologists. that's usual
07:08:06 <Deewiant> Oh well, I guess the graphs are interesting whether they're based on subjective or objective definitions
07:08:10 <kmc> look you're not going to axiomatize sex
07:08:18 <kmc> i will personally try to stop you
07:08:30 <Bike> kmc's incompleteness theorems
07:09:57 <Deewiant> kmc: You wouldn't accept it if somebody wrote "in the following graph, 'having sex' is taken to mean [...]"? :-P
07:11:17 <Deewiant> I wasn't fighting for an end-all be-all definition or anything
07:12:27 <Bike> wow now i'm annoyed at the pathologization of herpes again. random.
07:12:47 <Deewiant> Evidently there's a movie called "The Be All and End All" about a 15-year old boy trying to lose his virginity; take it up with its writers
07:15:13 <Bike> it's mostly harmless and like 80% of all humans have it. some pharma company made people feel insecure about genital sores for marketing purposes and now here we are.
07:16:54 <Bike> i do think it's kind of interesting/cool how a nervous system infection is so incredibly widespread >_>
07:20:24 <Bike> there are very occasionally some horror story things like herpesviral encephalitis, where your head slightly explodes
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08:34:45 <fizzie> I've this pair of 1T SATA (3Gbps) drives that just don't want to work in a computar. All other disks (a 64G SSD, a 3T HD, a 750G HD) work in the same SATA port (with the same SATA and power cables), and correspondingly both 1T disks work just fine in an external USB SATA dock.
08:34:50 <fizzie> I've even tried jumpering the 1T drive down to 1.5Gbps combattability mode, but it still just keeps not showing up. (It also does spin up, it just... isn't visible.)
08:45:12 <fizzie> And why the florb does Gigabyte not have BIOS update changelogs anywhere? There's just notes for the latest.
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12:07:53 <Deewiant> kmc: Is your nick pronounced as /'keɪ'ɛm'siː/ or /'keɪ'mæk/ or /'kiː'mæk/ or what
12:14:58 <Jafet> (the joke is drugz)
12:15:06 <ion> > cycle "HA"
12:15:08 <lambdabot> "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
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12:18:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: /'ko̞:'æm'se̞:/
12:19:54 <fizzie> (Huh, ː and : are different things? Well, let's just say I made an approximation.)
12:20:43 <ion> U+02D0 MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON
12:20:58 <Deewiant> That's a fairly narrow transcription for an approximation :-P
12:21:04 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if the normal colon means anything in IPA
12:21:23 <ion> Do you get Toblerone-shaped poop from a triangular colon?
12:22:16 <Deewiant> fizzie: Anyhoo, while there are options like that, yes, I imagine they're not among the ones he uses, which is why I didn't include e.g. that one.
12:22:35 <Deewiant> None of this non-canonical stuff for me.
12:22:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's what I use when talking about kmc at home, at least.
12:22:45 <fizzie> (A frequent occurrence.)
12:23:17 <fizzie> Although sometimes I just say "Keegan", because it's the funniest. (No offense.)
12:24:25 <ion> “Keemac” is certainly correct given his actual name.
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12:25:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you say that as /'kiːgən/ or /'keːgan/
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12:56:53 <oerjan> @tell <Bike> oh, hey. the division result actually uses chinese remainder. how about that<-- well duh why do you think i linked it
12:58:07 <boily1> good unlambdabotty morning!
13:01:25 <boily1> Gregor: please revert the channel to a possible state! the lack of lambdabot is bad for our daily vitamin intake!
13:02:20 <boily1> (lambdabot is from gregor, yes?)
13:05:29 <boily1> random person who usually lambdabots: ↑, and «AAAAAAAAURGH!»
13:16:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: /'keːgan/, actually. It's funnier that way, I think.
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13:27:48 <fizzie> I don't know what that was all about.
13:29:01 <boily1> /omɑilmɑtyːnyɑlusontaynːaɑnkeriɑitɑ/
13:30:34 <fizzie> Those as should be æs, at the very least.
13:30:56 <Deewiant> It could use some apostrophes for word boundaries, too.
13:31:06 <Deewiant> Not necessary in a broad transcription I guess.
13:32:08 <fizzie> Finnish is kind of funny in that you can get something that's almost an IPA approximation just by adding //s around the edges.
13:32:49 <oerjan> pesky orthophonic spelling
13:33:29 <oerjan> wait isn't that the word
13:33:51 <fizzie> And an even better approximation with tr aäö ɑæø.
13:34:09 <fizzie> Assuming some sort of hypothetical UTF-8-capable tr, do they do that nowadays?
13:34:30 <fizzie> Maybe it's locale-aware; it *is* 2013.
13:34:37 <pikhq> It's required to be.
13:34:52 <nooodl> isn't h x or something, too
13:35:02 <nooodl> (i don't know finnish at all)
13:35:13 <pikhq> `run echo 'bar' | tr aäö ɑæø
13:35:23 <oerjan> nooodl: was about to say
13:35:31 <pikhq> Apparently it makes an interesting effort instead.
13:35:52 <oerjan> (or to be precise, was thinking and about to not say anything)
13:36:01 <fizzie> I don't know IPA at all, but [Finnish phonology] says it's just /h/.
13:36:38 <fizzie> (Of course there's ŋ and such, if you want to get all fancy.)
13:36:44 <oerjan> well it's not x i guess, but it's unusual in that finnish allows it before consonants
13:37:17 <pikhq> Okay, so, tr is incredibly not locale-aware. Interesting.
13:39:20 <oerjan> why does google translate that as "Oh Rahma."
13:40:32 <oerjan> oh wait i had norwegian as target. with english it just leaves rähmä untranslated.
13:42:03 <boily1> is a rähmä like a sampo?
13:43:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Huh; it's a real word.
13:43:05 <fizzie> 1. rheum -- (a watery discharge from the mucous membranes (especially from the eyes or nose))
13:43:19 <fizzie> (I don't think it's used for any non-ocular sense, though.)
13:43:39 <fizzie> (I'd've @wn'd that, but lambdabot seems to be gone.)
13:45:05 <oerjan> allergic conjunctivitis sounds like something a grammarian might have
13:49:35 * oerjan might have it, actually
13:51:12 <boily1> I recommend a good dose of French grammar to cure that itchy ailment.
13:52:31 <oerjan> i just wash my eyes a lot instead
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14:15:39 <Roujo> Oh god French grammar =P
14:17:03 <boily1> French grammar is like having beakers of H2SO4 repeatedly thrown onto your face, but with less enjoyment.
14:17:21 <Roujo> It's not *that* bad
14:18:03 <Roujo> "Timmy was a chemist's son, but Timmy is no more: what Timmy thought was H2O was H2SO4"
14:19:20 <boily1> well, ok. maybe not sulfuric acid. probably nearer to fluoroantimonic acid. the pain is shorter.
14:19:44 <Roujo> Again, it's not *that* bad. =P
14:19:48 <Roujo> It's complicated, sure
14:19:53 <Roujo> Arbitrary at times, too
14:20:43 <Roujo> But if I managed to teach it to students who were pretty damn far behind, it can't be something that actually kills you =P
14:22:01 <boily1> news report: “Another student found mangled on his desk by a participe passé hate crime...”
14:22:15 <boily1> Roujo: so, you're a teacher?
14:22:52 <Roujo> Not even, that's the thing
14:23:19 <Roujo> I just took up being a French mentor instead of doing my French Comm course in Cégep
14:23:38 <boily1> I did the same, but with math students.
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14:56:23 <HackEgo> Zuu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:59:07 <Zuu> Im not quite used to this kind of welcoming
15:02:32 <Fiora> they do it to everyone <.<
15:02:40 <Fiora> at least you only got one welcome message, they gave me about 5
15:03:09 <Zuu> Well, its certainly much nicer than last time i was here :P
15:03:43 * Zuu is only really here because his proxy crashed, and autojoin channels havent been changed for quite a while
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15:33:12 <boily> good. I did my first ghost! back to my usual self.
15:33:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relcom: not found
15:33:50 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:42:32 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:43:10 <Roujo> Also, Zuu, do I know you from somewhere?
15:43:14 <Roujo> Your name looks familiar
15:43:32 <Zuu> Roujo: Probably :>
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15:45:57 <Zuu> Roujo: unless its familiar in a bad way, then no, you dont know me :P
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15:48:51 <boily> Zuu: are you Canadian?
15:49:41 <Zuu> boily: I wouldnt mind to have been :>
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17:03:10 <boily> Fiora: the welcomes never stop. we are a very welcommy community.
17:04:22 <Roujo> Does any bot here have echo capability?
17:04:23 <HackEgo> Roujo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:04:33 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:05:15 <Roujo> But of course, it doesn't react to its own lines =P
17:05:43 <boily> Roujo: HackEgo is special. it inserts an invisible space before any line it prints that begins with a non-alpha character.
17:05:57 <Roujo> `welcome ~echo `welcome Hats
17:05:57 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
17:05:57 <lambdabot> esoteric",":@echo `echo hello"]} target:#esoteric rest:"`echo hello"
17:05:59 <HackEgo> ~echo: `welcome: Hats: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:06:10 <Roujo> Dammit, foiled by a colon
17:06:27 <elliott> it's easy enough to loop some of the bots if you really want to
17:06:37 <Roujo> I don't really want to loop them
17:06:39 <elliott> metasepia should be loopable I think
17:06:42 <Roujo> Since that's generally annoying
17:06:44 <boily> uhm. how the what the fungot did my bot log got throught lambdabot.
17:06:52 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo q"]}
17:07:10 <lambdabot> echo <msg>. echo irc protocol string
17:07:21 <boily> that is not good. most definitely, elliottely not good.
17:10:57 <metasepia> CYUL 051700Z 29013G20KT 30SM FEW040 FEW240 20/07 A3001 RMK CU1CI1 CU TR CI TR SLP162 DENSITY ALT 600FT
17:11:01 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
17:11:01 <lambdabot> esoteric",":@echo ~ping"]} target:#esoteric rest:"~ping"
17:11:28 <Fiora> ~echo `echo ~echo `echo
17:11:28 <boily> ~echo @echo `echo ^ping
17:11:28 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "metasepia!~metasepia@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
17:11:28 <lambdabot> esoteric",":@echo `echo ^ping"]} target:#esoteric rest:"`echo ^ping"
17:12:36 <boily> fizzie: *chewbacca sounds* *flail* *woggle*
17:13:57 -!- fungot has joined.
17:14:01 <fungot> ~echo `echo ~echo `echo
17:15:32 <fizzie> My thing is being real slow. :/
17:17:21 <nooodl> hi i made this http://ideone.com/5IKz5G
17:19:17 -!- Bike has joined.
17:19:37 <nooodl> i wonder if ruby code matching /[:punct:]*/ is tc
17:20:15 <boily> can you do a BF interpreter in punctual ruby?
17:20:17 <elliott> can you write any character and eval?
17:22:05 <nooodl> eval is impossible i think
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17:33:21 <kmc> Deewiant: usually I spell it out letter by letter but yes you can just call me "Keegan" in person
17:33:29 <kmc> I used to have "keegan" an freenode long ago...
17:34:05 -!- kmc has set topic: When the zetas fill the skies, will our leaders tell us why? | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:34:20 <Deewiant> kmc: The latter was more about if it's anything like "keemac" or "kaymac", but OK, you spell it out
17:34:54 <metasepia> zeta definition: the 6th letter of the Greek alphabet.
17:36:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Why the sudden interest, incidentally? Planning a #esoteric talk show or something?
17:37:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: Just came to mind for some reason
17:37:28 <Fiora> tonight, on the esoteric show
17:37:46 <Fiora> is rust an esoteric language? or is it just kmc trying to push his playtoy on everyone else?
17:37:51 <Fiora> bf derivatives: are they passe?
17:38:34 <Fiora> N-dimensional esoteric languages: the next generation of programming?
17:38:40 <Fiora> find out, tonight, on the esoteric show.
17:38:48 <elliott> kmc: if we meet in person I'll call you kay em cee is that okay
17:39:24 <elliott> I wonder when the point was that everyone collectively got sick of bf derivatives
17:39:29 <elliott> pretty sure it was after 2007
17:39:49 <Fiora> I keep wanting to read kmc as "kimchee"
17:39:52 <Fiora> and then I'm hungry
17:40:40 <boily> ~duck duck duck go
17:40:41 <metasepia> Duck Duck Go is a search engine based in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania that uses information from crowd-sourced sites (like Wikipedia) with the aim of augmenting traditional results and improving relevance.
17:41:25 <kmc> Fiora: haha
17:41:32 <kmc> I like kimchi
17:41:39 <kmc> although not the super fishy kind
17:42:16 <boily> there's fishy kimchi?
17:42:26 <Roujo> Yeah, but I don't trust it
17:43:56 <boily> “The most common seasonings include brine, scallions, spices, ginger, chopped radish, garlic, saeujeot (hangul: 새우젓, shrimp sauce), and aekjeot (hangul: 액젓, fish sauce).”
17:44:48 <Bike> is this a riemann hypothesis thing
17:45:29 <kmc> not really
17:46:01 <Bike> http://www.spacereptilesareyourfriend.com/images/30-Electronic-Mail-Blues.jpg
17:46:21 <fizzie> MC kmc is on the mike.
17:46:29 <kmc> Bike: good domain name
17:46:47 -!- jsvine has joined.
17:48:44 <Gregor> Actual website circa 1998.
18:15:21 <Bike> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071108-fossil-foodchain.html fossilized turducken
18:17:00 <Fiora> is it wrong if I find the word "turducken" inherently hilarious
18:17:45 <kmc> nothing could be more right
18:20:06 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inherently_funny_word
18:20:46 <elliott> as someone who is not American I can also confirm that turducken itself is inherently hilarious
18:27:52 <olsner> I think it's more disgusting than hilarious, too close to turd-ducken
18:30:39 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_stuffed_camel
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18:39:48 <Gregor> elliott: Also: Delicious.
18:43:31 <kmc> elliott: your country invented the deep fried mars bar
18:44:36 <elliott> kmc: Scotland is a different country to England
18:45:33 <elliott> several countries under one sovereign state called the UK and also the UK is part of the Commonwealth??
18:45:44 <elliott> and then there's the Crown dependencies
18:45:49 <Gregor> But which of those is a "nation"
18:45:54 <shachaf> kmc: did you know "2" is apparently a different category from "𝟐"
18:46:00 <elliott> ""The Crown" is defined differently in each Crown dependency."
18:46:32 <Bike> recently england had legislation to put the monarchy under absolute primogeniture but they haven't done it yet because all the other countries with the same monarchy would have to do it too
18:46:45 <Bike> which is kind of a shame because i like the idea of there being two english monarchs based on local legislation
18:46:57 <elliott> Gregor: AIUI, "nation" here is short for "nation state"
18:47:07 <elliott> Gregor: so it has to be the UK
18:47:16 <elliott> because I don't think England, Scotland etc. are states
18:47:25 <elliott> this being a distinct kind of state from the US ones, I think
18:47:43 <elliott> however I think Crown dependencies are self-governed nation states that just happen to belong to the Crown?
18:47:58 <elliott> "Legislation of the Isle of Man defines the "Crown in right of the Isle of Man" as being separate from the "Crown in right of the United Kingdom".[6]" fuck
18:48:06 <Bike> for some level of "self-governed"
18:48:13 <Bike> they probably don't handle their own diplomacy or military
18:48:14 <elliott> well, de jure self-governed.
18:48:27 <elliott> "Although the Crown dependencies are British possessions of the Crown, and are not sovereign nations in their own right"
18:48:37 <Bike> i mean, they can pass local legislation, but not negotiate a treaty independently
18:48:41 <elliott> okay but they're not part of the United Kingdom
18:48:41 <Bike> because they're not sovereign
18:48:45 <elliott> so they... have no sovereign state?
18:49:10 <elliott> The relationship between the Crown dependencies and the UK is "one of mutual respect and support, ie, a partnership".[26]
18:49:15 <elliott> The British Government is solely responsible for defence and international representation[27] (although, in accordance with 2007 framework agreements,[28] the UK has undertaken not to act internationally on behalf of the Crown dependencies without prior consultation). Each Crown dependency has responsibility for its own customs and immigration services.
18:49:16 <Roujo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
18:49:19 <Bike> man i remember when i went through learning this, and i found out that literally the official criterion for "is a state" is "other states call it a state"
18:49:20 <elliott> I think I'm just going to cry
18:49:23 <Bike> and just kind of laughed and gave up
18:49:34 <shachaf> Bike: what's wrong with that criterion
18:49:43 <Bike> nothing really, it works very well
18:49:49 <elliott> Roujo: I think I've watched that and it doesn't actually explain these fiddly bits
18:49:54 <kmc> international law is really just made up as you go
18:49:55 <Bike> except for occasional outliers like thailand or kosovo
18:49:56 <kmc> also all other law
18:49:59 <elliott> like I thought I had a pretty good grasp on what all the things in the UK and stuff were
18:50:04 <kmc> but international law is newer and so this is more obvious, or something
18:50:06 <Roujo> elliott: It might not. I was just hoping it helped =)
18:50:08 <Bike> kmc: yeah but this was before i understood that. it was, like, a revelation, man.
18:50:09 <elliott> but then PH was all "what about the Crown dependencies"
18:50:13 <kmc> yeah it is a revelation
18:50:35 <shachaf> p. sure i remember a conversation like that
18:50:38 <Bike> kmc: it was like "wow this makes no sense. that makes so much sense"
18:51:02 <elliott> "The Crown dependencies, together with the United Kingdom, are collectively known as the British Islands." I like how "British Islands" is a different thing to "British Isles" oh my god
18:51:14 <kmc> perhaps it's part of the more general revelation of "adults don't actually know what they're doing"
18:51:31 <elliott> "While their constitutional status bears some resemblance to that of the Commonwealth realms, the Crown dependencies are not members of the Commonwealth of Nations. They participate in the Commonwealth of Nations by virtue of their relationship with the United Kingdom, and participate in various Commonwealth institutions in their own right. For example, all three participate in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the Commonwealth Games."
18:52:00 <Bike> elliott: btw the best crown dependency is guernsey. Sark is feudal and all
18:52:48 <elliott> okay so I honestly don't understand what "state" you're in when you're in a Crown dependency
18:52:56 <elliott> they're not sovereign states unto themselves, but they're also not part of the United Kingdom
18:53:04 <elliott> but you are, presumably, not stateless
18:53:07 <Bike> what citizenship do they have?
18:53:32 <elliott> Channel Islanders and Manx people are British citizens and hence European citizens.[39] However, they are not entitled to take advantage of the freedom of movement of people or services unless they are directly connected (through birth, descent from a parent or grandparent, or five years' residence) with the United Kingdom.[40]
18:53:37 <elliott> but that's not all the crown dependencies
18:53:41 <elliott> Matters reserved to the Crown (i.e. acting through the United Kingdom Government) are limited to defence, citizenship, and diplomatic representation.
18:53:50 <elliott> I think you probably have citizenship of the Crown dependency you're in usually?
18:53:53 <elliott> just... it's not a sovereign state...
18:53:54 <Bike> hm yes, this seems to be utterly fucked.
18:54:08 <elliott> I think maybe this Wikipedia article is oversimplified in parts or something
18:54:20 <elliott> and they're maybe kind-of-states enough to have citizens and stuff, just not fully-fledged autonomous ones??
18:54:34 <Bike> well, probably, in that you can't get a deep understanding of british law without finding the secret protocols in the magna carta
18:55:08 <elliott> nice they're also SORT OF members of the EU
18:55:09 <Bike> seriously you know the whole outlawries bill thing right. it's like just way too much tradition man
18:55:13 <elliott> because of their "association" with the UK
18:55:26 <Bike> isn't french guiana like that too
18:55:27 <elliott> Of the Four Freedoms of the EU, the islands take part in that concerning the movement of goods, but not those concerning the movement of people, services or capital. The Channel Islands are outside the VAT area (as they have no VAT), while the Isle of Man is inside it.[37] Both areas are inside the customs union.[38]
18:56:07 <Bike> hm nope, french guiana is just part of the european union.
18:56:10 <elliott> don't Amazon do some things from Jersey
18:56:12 <Bike> stickin their tendrils into south america
18:57:36 <elliott> Bike: can you just figure all this out for me so I can stop thinking about it
18:58:04 <olsner> let's just call it all england and be done with it?
18:58:14 <kmc> let's go to Åland
18:58:31 <fizzie> Verkkokauppa.com (a Finnish computers-and-nowadays-everything-else-too e-retailer) used to send some things from Åland Islands VAT-free.
18:58:39 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_(international_relations) hth.
18:58:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT-free_imports_from_the_Channel_Islands
18:59:16 <fizzie> They were all priced like 0.05 eur from the maximum limit before you have to do something customs-related, and you could order only one thing at a time.
18:59:41 <kmc> does their name just mean "online shop"?
19:00:11 <fizzie> They also paid that one guy to change his name to Verkkokauppa, I think.
19:00:36 <fizzie> Some random dude in the US.
19:00:59 <fizzie> Formerly known as Calvin Gosz.
19:01:06 <olsner> why would they do that?
19:01:22 <kmc> yknow there used to be duty free shops inside the Berlin U-bahn
19:01:25 <kmc> pretty convenient
19:01:28 <fizzie> http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Unemployed+US+teenager+gets+curious+new+name+-+Verkkokauppa/1135250640026
19:02:05 <kmc> he only got $5k? come on
19:02:16 <shachaf> "As the number of immigrants in the United States is high, the legislation regarding names is rather loose, which is why changing names in the country is relatively easy."
19:02:45 <elliott> ”We have seen quite a number of different spellings of our company name, which is why we stressed that the name will have to be spelled correctly. Otherwise the young man could be left without the remaining sum of money”, Seppälä notes.
19:03:00 <fizzie> I'm not entirely certain they got their money's worth there, really, in a PR sense, because after those first few news articles, I've heard nothing of it.
19:03:29 <fizzie> Perhaps they could do a "where is Verkkokauppa Com now" episode in a show or something.
19:09:35 <shachaf> What should I use for drawing commutative diagrams on a computer?
19:11:46 <Bike> is there not a tex module or whatever for it yet
19:11:57 <mnoqy> there are plenty of tex things for it
19:12:03 <mnoqy> ??but which to use??
19:12:39 <boily> I use the lazy way and eps everything.
19:22:30 <kmc> I guess it would be nice to give my heart to a TeX module but which one, which one do I choooooose
19:23:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: i'm as confused as a bear driving a car over here
19:23:14 <kmc> comicsans.sty
19:23:53 <fungot> olsner: i still want that box, riastradh? if so, it's a little off-putting. :)
19:24:15 <metasepia> Warp spasm is a mythological feat found in Celtic myth by which a warrior enters a frenzied state of contortion in battle that makes him invincible.
19:24:16 <kmc> fungot: perhaps you will fix my destructor cycle
19:24:17 <fungot> kmc: yes you can, and have new features added regularly? if not, don't bother. go straight to /dev/ dsp is using before writing to it
19:25:21 <elliott> kmc: have you tried bonghits yet
19:25:43 <kmc> not exactly
19:25:44 <kmc> A luxury toilet controlled by a smartphone app is vulnerable to attack, according to security experts.
19:27:12 <mnoqy> having your toilet hacked would probably be distressing
19:27:23 <kmc> I have a strict "no bonghits at work" policy
19:27:35 <kmc> I realize this makes me a conservative dinosaur who just doesn't ``get'' startup culture
19:27:42 <olsner> hmm, so what can you do with a hacked toilet?
19:27:43 <elliott> mnoqy: what if you got your aim hecked...
19:27:58 <mnoqy> far beyond distressing
19:28:41 <shachaf> kmc: what about other kinds of hits
19:30:26 <kmc> perhaps cache hits will fix my performance problem
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19:33:47 <kmc> http://www.purple.com/
19:37:20 <elliott> purple.com is one of the eight wonders of the internet
19:37:23 <elliott> not sure what the others are
19:37:32 <boily> for a moment I thought it was a new host for #esoteric's logs...
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19:49:05 <kmc> [xcb] Most likely this is a multi-threaded client and XInitThreads has not been called
19:49:07 <kmc> [xcb] Aborting, sorry about that.
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20:02:33 <Taneb> kmc, why are there muse lyrics in the topic
20:05:50 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:06:09 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:06:10 <shachaf> Taneb: for inspiration hth
20:06:43 <Taneb> Well, the answer is clearly because they are fully loaded celluloids, which target nothing but our minds
20:07:43 * boily shakes fungot out of Taneb
20:07:44 <fungot> boily: heh, then put it up or are you a teen-ager? even sillier!!
20:12:53 <Taneb> boily, that's the next two lines of the song
20:13:37 * boily still shakes Taneb for the fun of it
20:13:51 <Taneb> (it's a weird song)
20:14:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:14:46 <boily> the only other song that has “celluloid” in its lyrics that I know of is carpet crawlers from genesis.
20:14:56 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi0XGqFt3Es
20:15:02 <boily> that one too is pretty incomprehensible.
20:16:22 <boily> oh. here come the zetas.
20:17:16 <kmc> Taneb: I thought they were satellites
20:17:29 <kmc> also why is why not
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20:57:24 <kmc> "The Washington Post Company just announced that it has reached an agreement to sell its newspaper publishing business to Amazon founder and CEO Jeff Bezos for $250 million." O______O
20:58:11 <kmc> like, is he running for office? why the hell else would somebody want to own a newspaper
21:02:17 <elliott> probably jeff bezos just wants to own everything though?
21:02:24 <zzo38> kmc: To improve the quality of the newspaper?
21:02:30 <Bike> "Unsettled WP editorial board reflexively calls for airstrikes on Barnes & Noble and Overstock."
21:02:31 <elliott> jsvine: what is your professional take on this story
21:02:45 <jsvine> elliott: totally fascinating
21:02:59 <zzo38> If I wanted to own a newspaper, I would do so in order to improve it.
21:04:16 <kmc> Bike: haha
21:04:20 <zzo38> What is the "`*list" for the Dungeons&Dragons recording? I think it could be "`*list" just for consistency (even if the file doesn't exist); what would it be called, please?
21:04:42 <zzo38> jsvine: How much of esolang report did you write so far?
21:05:09 <jsvine> elliott: there's an argument to be made that newspapers could benefit from owners with the money and skill to develop a long-term strategy, rather than the desperate grasping for page-views that's become so common. Who knows if Bezos is the right person, but very much looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
21:05:53 <Bike> finally, the Post will get a good API
21:06:50 <shachaf> zzo38: You get to name it.
21:07:11 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:07:38 <jsvine> zzo38: I have a considerable chunk written, but it still needs a stronger "human" narrative, something that non-technical readers can relate to — a quest to create X, or a rivalry between X and Y, or just some colorful anecdotes
21:08:18 <jsvine> zzo38: since there's no particular rush for the story, I'm gradually figuring that part out, interviewing folks, etc.
21:08:34 <kmc> hmmmmm who shall be my rival
21:08:56 <jsvine> Bike: you might like this: https://github.com/dwillis/post_haste
21:09:03 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, I can call it "`danddreclist" (I didn't finish yet; when I will I will type it by itself). (Note: Your client should be progreammed to only filter on messages starting with "`danddreclist"; not on all messages containing it!
21:09:04 <shachaf> kmc: can i be your archnemesis
21:09:18 <Bike> hah, i don't actually need one, but thanks
21:09:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Wait, my client doesn't filter on list names. The point of lists is that the bot notifies me.
21:10:20 <shachaf> zzo38: So you would make a HackEgo program in bin/danddreclist and it would print my name.
21:10:34 <Bike> "The Washington Post, one of our country’s greatest newspapers, just sold for 1/4 the price of Tumblr." there are a lot of good quotes coming out of this
21:10:39 <zzo38> shachaf: You can program the bot to notify you if you want that, I suppose; after all, it is prefixed in the way to do that. I won't put that but I do this that you can program it if you want to make it do that.
21:11:00 <shachaf> Do you have HackEgo on /ignore or something?
21:11:11 <shachaf> `run cp bin/{empty,danddrec}list
21:11:20 <shachaf> `run echo shachaf >> bin/danddreclist
21:11:23 <zzo38> I don't have it ignored
21:11:30 <shachaf> Does anyone else want to be on the list?
21:12:13 <nooodl> `run echo nooodl >> bin/danddreclist
21:16:54 <nooodl> oh hey elliott remember the "is symbols-only ruby TC" thing! turns out it kinda is, if you cheat
21:17:46 <nooodl> basically you construct a string like "ruby -e 'do stuff'" and then print `#{__}`
21:18:29 <elliott> also print isn't symbols??
21:19:21 <nooodl> ($> is the perl-y global variable for stdout, << sends stuff to it """C++ style""")
21:19:57 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/120265/ here's an example! it counts to ten and prints hello world
21:23:32 <FreeFull> I wonder if dependent typing will ever hit the mainstream
21:27:19 <FreeFull> Do you think C will be still used during the 22nd century?
21:27:50 <zzo38> Yes I think C will still be used although maybe with a lesser percentage.
21:27:53 <boily> probably. will humans be the ones who are using it?
21:28:03 <Bike> nah, zorblaxians
21:28:32 <boily> fungot: are you a zorblaxian?
21:28:45 * boily eyes fungot suspiciously
21:28:45 <fungot> boily: well no matter what is and, if i'm not totally sold on the net, who's going to play with
21:29:12 <zzo38> Human or not, I think if someone is modifying an existing program written in C, they will know some things of C programming even if they don't use C as often as others.
21:29:12 * boily eyes fungot very suspiciously
21:29:12 <fungot> boily: i guess i've only ever been a proper stove at home now
21:29:51 <fizzie> fungot: You don't run *that* hot.
21:29:51 <fungot> fizzie: i'm afraid that's something you should be doing
21:30:19 <boily> yup. that bot is most definitely a zorblaxian.
21:30:29 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
21:30:36 -!- Bike has joined.
21:30:36 <Bike> by 2117 greenland will have melted and the remaining humans will pledge fealty to zorblax corporation, and so on
21:30:44 <fizzie> fungot: I, uh... are you going to incinerate me?
21:30:44 <fungot> fizzie: scheme is far more interesting.
21:30:55 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
21:31:05 <kmc> Bike: the Washington Post may be one of the greatest newspapers but it cannot supply me with an unlimited amount of incredibly specific pornography
21:31:25 <Bike> hopefully bezos can fix that
21:31:52 <kmc> FreeFull: didn't you see that episode of TNG where they discover the Borg is written in C and attack it with a format string vulnerability
21:32:17 <Bike> "POSIX conformance was your downfall"
21:36:18 <FreeFull> kmc: Haven't seen that one, but I have seen the one with a buffer overflow due to not checking the input size
21:36:21 <Fiora> I am captai%n jea%n luc picard
21:36:48 <boily> specific pornography? like, the shadow of a left nipple of a 36¼ year old woman from north-western nebraska cast in a blue-violet light?
21:37:25 <Gracenotes> It was a pretty good idea, designing scanf to write to arbitrary memory.
21:38:46 <FreeFull> Gracenotes: I have no idea what a legitimate use of it would even be
21:39:38 <Bike> a legitimate use of printf?
21:39:40 <zzo38> I suggest two things adding to printf formatting strings: One is a "read-only" format specifier which makes it cannot write, and other which tells it to parse the rest of the string for size specifications of numbered parameters but otherwise ignore it (so that you can make a user format string which uses the first and third value and ignores the second, for example).
21:40:08 <FreeFull> When would you actually use it?
21:40:34 <zzo38> FreeFull: I know I don't think it is useful.
21:40:56 <Bike> Maybe for tabulation?
21:41:01 <Bike> Of... some kind.
21:41:29 <zzo38> I don't think it helps much for tabulation.
21:42:13 <FreeFull> Actually, it could be used for tabulation
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21:42:32 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/a/3402415 well, ok.
21:42:35 <Gracenotes> You'll be happy to know I've written 0x401f2d bytes so far! I'm so happy I'm not just telling you, but also the PLT. Hope this helps, have a good day!
21:42:50 <Bike> programming language theory?
21:42:52 <zzo38> If you have long strings and then you will line up in columns, make something like: x=printf(...); while(x++<20) putchar(' '); It is one way.
21:43:26 <FreeFull> Something like printf("%d%n", somenumber, moo); for(i=0;i<(something-moo);i++) putChar(' ');
21:43:45 <FreeFull> Actually, you need to dereference the moo
21:44:09 <Bike> zzo38: well in this imaginary situation you want to print something on the same line as x after the beginning of the columsn.
21:44:29 <zzo38> printf already returns the length though, and if it is just something simple like %d then you can still use the left-align format code for it
21:45:02 <Gracenotes> Unix people using columns to create tables, HTML people using tables to create columns
21:45:08 <Bike> yeah but you'd need to break it into two calls. x = printf(...); printf(...); while (x++ <20) ...
21:45:21 <Bike> not that this is very good or anything.
21:45:27 <FreeFull> zzo38: %n can be in the middle of the printed string though
21:45:33 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know what's the point of doing that, though.
21:45:50 <Bike> convolutedly justifying %n
21:46:21 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes it can, but such thing doesn't seem very useful. Even then, you can use multiple printf statements. Maybe some programs use %n but I don't use it.
21:46:41 <zzo38> It is what I suggest adding two new format codes, which can help.
21:47:50 <FreeFull> I suggest looking for %n in the linux source coude
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21:52:46 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah Kees Cook carries around a thumbdrive with partitions with names like "%99999n"
21:52:50 <kmc> it will crash a lot of machines
21:52:58 <kmc> (not necessarily in the kernel, but in all the gnome bullshit that looks at new disks, etc)
21:53:29 <zzo38> Why should you use the partition name as a format string? That doesn't make any sense.
21:55:25 <Bike> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/04/obama-is-wrong-traditional-journalism-isnt-dead/ «Correction: This post originally stated that Obama said “traditional journalism is dead” in his interview with Amazon. That was incorrect.»
21:55:56 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/120285/
21:56:11 <nooodl> BCT in ruby (with . and * instead of 0 and 1) using only punctuation
21:57:10 <nooodl> wait is $$ guaranteed to be nonzero?? (it's the pid)
21:57:36 <zzo38> I see a zero in there it isn't punctuation. But $. is zero isn't it, can you use that?
21:58:03 <nooodl> oops i forgot that zero
21:58:24 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/120287/ there
21:59:40 <kmc> Bike: the irony, it burns
22:04:07 <Bike> "To monitor kinetics continuously, we outfitted each cockroach with a custom micro-accelerometer backpack,"
22:04:29 <oerjan> now just s/back/jet/ and we're all set
22:05:15 <Bike> eh, how much fuel can you fit in 600 mg of pack
22:05:43 <oerjan> just make it nuclear duh
22:23:39 <oerjan> <Bike> except for occasional outliers like thailand or kosovo <-- itym "taiwan" hth
22:25:05 <HackEgo> 136) <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
22:25:34 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: cockroaches are notoriously lacking in heavy water
22:25:48 <kmc> wait thailand and taiwan aren't the same country???????? brb calling embassy
22:26:43 <Bike> yeah that was a dumb mistake sorry
22:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> taiwan is the one that keeps saying it's china, thailand is the one that's like vietnam or whatever
22:27:17 <Bike> ok well now i feel better.
22:27:26 <Bike> thailand is a monarchy...
22:27:34 <elliott> uh I hear they're like vietnam
22:27:40 <Bike> "communist monarchy"
22:30:01 <kmc> did you know pad thai was invented only in like 1940s and is more chinese than thai in origin
22:30:37 <kmc> Prime Minister Luang Phibunsongkhram popularized it as the national dish to promote nationalism
22:31:37 <boily> some day, alise will come back and pull a cpressey.
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22:32:17 <Fiora> kmc: at least it's not chop suey
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22:32:38 <kmc> 'anthropologist E.N. Anderson concludes that the dish is based on tsap seui (“miscellaneous leftovers”)'
22:32:41 <kmc> catchy name
22:33:35 * oerjan is reminded of pytt i panne
22:33:55 <oerjan> which i haven't had for ages, i think
22:34:43 <kmc> why am i in ##c++ again
22:36:05 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdT1YT9AOPA finally
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22:53:20 <FreeFull> kmc: Yeah, why are you in ##c++ when you should be in #idris
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22:57:54 <Bike> hey ChrisW last time you were here i forgot to mention you can do a prefix code for ski in binary so that 11 means something.
22:58:27 <ChrisW> What would 11 mean? I sort of forgot what 00, 01, and 10 mean too
22:58:58 <Bike> say 0 is `, 10 is K and 11 is S
22:59:59 <ChrisW> That's almost the same as BCL, right?
23:02:33 <ChrisW> I wonder if there is a one-point combinator which does not contain application to an abstraction
23:03:20 <zzo38> Do you think the million dollar wedge in Wheel of Fortune is actually worth only a few dollars?
23:05:57 <elliott> apparently 1600x900 at 14" counts as an "HD display" for marketing purposes -_-
23:06:18 <elliott> high-definition, adj. bigger than 1024x768
23:06:46 <Fiora> isn't 1024x768 already HD?
23:06:50 <Fiora> I mean, it's 720p :P
23:06:53 <kmc> i mean technically 720p is "high def" but still, screw you monitor manufacturers
23:06:56 <Fiora> </marketing speak>
23:07:05 * Bike stares at x600 monitor.
23:10:47 <elliott> and 720p is 1280x720 I think
23:10:56 <elliott> by I think I mean I just looked it up on Wikipedia
23:19:20 <kallisti> elliott: is the TH in mchost actually less code that creating helper functions and writing the code directly?
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23:20:33 <elliott> kallisti: it generates data types as well as a parser
23:20:41 <elliott> also mchost is like years out of date btw
23:20:58 <elliott> you might want to look at mcmap, it had stuff to automatically parse out the protocol from the dev wiki
23:21:06 <elliott> which is a more convenient, albeit hackier approach
23:22:06 <kallisti> elliott: did you develop that as well?
23:22:55 <elliott> I worked a lot on mcmap, yes (this one: http://github.com/fis/mcmap), though it's originally fizzie's project
23:24:29 <kallisti> elliott: which version of minecraft was it last tested for?
23:25:25 <elliott> whatever the latest version was in 2012-01-06, presumably
23:25:29 <elliott> I think they redid the whole protocol or something?
23:25:38 <elliott> (I hope so, it was an awful protocol)
23:25:54 <kallisti> elliott: variable width with no terminator
23:28:33 <elliott> the protocol at least used to assume that running zlib over some data never made it bigger.
23:28:41 <elliott> or maybe even always made it smaller?
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23:56:15 <Bike> journals with social features are kind of cool. i can see that someone in yellowknife and eleven kenyans have read this paper
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00:21:21 <Sgeo> The Mittani has horrible hair!
00:24:59 <Sgeo> Maccaroni and cheese tastes better than I thought it would
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00:32:01 <zzo38> Maybe you should make it so that if you write "`? `slist" and whatever the `*lists are, that it can tell you what that one is for.
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00:59:12 <comex> talk about random clash of interests for me
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00:59:30 <Sgeo> Yes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2fyO4uKkxo
01:00:29 <Sgeo> I've never played, and don't know much, but I like reading about it
01:00:32 <Sgeo> Especially major scams
01:00:40 <Sgeo> I should read the Titans4U thread fully someday
01:03:04 <HackEgo> olist (908): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
01:04:28 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: I think that battle has come and gone, afaik
01:04:38 <Sgeo> Afaiu, the Redditors went into battle knowing they'd lose
01:05:04 <Bike> it's moved on from goons to redditors?
01:05:14 <shachaf> oerjan: Should it be renamed oohlist?
01:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, no, this was the goons declaring war on the redditors
01:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> the game economy shifted around and left them sitting on top of a pile of resources they weren't equipped to defend
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01:14:33 <shachaf> elliott: The lambdabot dice thing says "shachaf:" even in /msg.
01:30:50 <Bike> http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/57473412060/ what in the fuck
01:37:18 <zzo38> Is there a "overlapping rectangle picture format"? I do have idea for making up such a thing, though.
01:39:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: chronic physical pain hth
01:40:03 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: what do you mean by "overlapping rectangle", is it a sort of layers?
01:40:52 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: I mean that the picture is made up by a bunch of rectangles, all of which are black, and everywhere other than such rectangle is white space.
01:41:22 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: mostly i was reacting to like the wi-fi thing.
01:41:36 <lifthrasiir> maybe there might be an image format based on quadtrees.
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01:42:03 <lifthrasiir> (but of course individual squares in the quadtree do not overlap, I know)
01:44:12 <zzo38> I have made a program in TeX for printing .PBM pictures, but I think a more efficient format could be made up, using the following features: * It isn't too difficult to parse using TeX. * It is monochrome file. * It is ASCII format. * The data does not take up too much space. * It can be used with other programs too. * The output is efficient (such as using rectangles larger than individual pixels). * It can be scaled, but may have a default
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02:11:21 <kmc> i like how the IBM repair form assumes you live in a city with 8 or fewer letters in its name
02:11:24 <kmc> i mean doesn't everyone
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02:13:20 <kmc> also there are two fields for name, one of which is long enough to fit my name, one of which is not
02:13:21 <Bike> took me five tries to think of one that would fit
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02:13:41 <Fiora> um um um "new york" that fits
02:14:36 <Bike> I thought of Portland.
02:16:05 <shachaf> Bike: well, the city's name is New York
02:17:09 <monotone> Just give the nearest airport code. Surely that's precise enough?
02:17:28 <Bike> the nearest airport code to me is in another state, probably
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02:19:05 <elliott> kmc: keeg mcall from sanfranc
02:21:15 <monotone> Well, damn, that's probably what actually happened.
02:21:20 <Bike> does kmc have a middle name? i hope it's "Mc"
02:21:53 <monotone> Someone decided to store the information as files on an 8.3 filesystem.
02:22:57 <elliott> (pronounced "kay octothorpe drugz em cee")
02:25:23 <shachaf> elliott: itym "sulamit drugz"
02:34:29 <zzo38> I suppose "Sanfranc" should be sufficient.
02:35:13 <Bike> what about Saint Francis, Wisconsin
02:35:41 <elliott> kmc: "15.6" HD (1366 x 768)"
02:35:42 <zzo38> If you can enter the state too then it might help, though.
02:35:53 <zzo38> (The state can be given by a two-letter abbreviation, too, if needed.)
02:36:07 <monotone> Oh, oh, I know, use the city and state fields to enter geographical coordinates.
02:36:58 <Bike> could you have numeric filenames in DOS?
02:37:10 <monotone> "Please mail to 1600 PENN AVE NW, 38-8976N 77-0366W"
02:37:18 <Bike> by burrito drone
02:37:33 <monotone> Oh, right, "20500", almost forgot.
02:37:40 <Bike> well, flying a drone in that particular area might be a bit problematic
02:37:43 <kmc> elliott: I've met multiple people recently who would say e.g. "hashtag esoteric" for this channel
02:37:58 <kmc> I think "hashtag" is yet another name for # now
02:38:31 <monotone> I never pronounced the # in IRC channel names, the scant few times I've had to refer to IRC channels out loud.
02:39:12 <Bike> it's still "sharp" for me, thankfully
02:40:09 <monotone> & looks kind of like a flat symbol if you squint and give yourself presbyopia.
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02:41:43 <Bike> just use a b like everyone else.
02:42:37 <monotone> & is for server-local channels.
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02:43:33 <zzo38> monotone: Yes, that is what it is in IRC. # is network, & is local to server, + is network modeless, ! is network with server-side codes added to the name to prevent takeovers from netsplits.
02:43:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you have any document with proposals for improving the IRC protocols?
02:44:10 <zzo38> On servers that support all channel types, you shouldn't use the # type because other types works better.
02:45:10 <monotone> I've never seen any network that supports the latter two types.
02:47:01 <zzo38> The types &!+ are all immune (although for three different reasons). I think I have seen some networks that support those types, but it isn't very common, it appears.
02:47:27 <Bike> immune... to the irc plague?
02:47:50 <zzo38> No, they are immune to netsplits.
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03:05:50 <HackEgo> danddreclist 38: shachaf nooodl
03:14:16 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
03:14:30 <shachaf> Maybe that should be noted somewhere.
03:14:36 <zzo38> Like I said, perhaps we should make it so that whatever `*lists are mentioned so you can write "`? `danddreclist" so you know.
03:15:04 <shachaf> `run echo 'http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)' > wisdom/danddreclist
03:15:16 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
03:16:21 <Bike> `run echo 'Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.' >wisdom/slist
03:16:37 <Bike> `run echo 'Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.' >wisdom/olist
03:16:59 <Bike> shachaf can write something humorous for `smlist.
03:17:31 <shachaf> how about 'Update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.' hth
03:17:54 <shachaf> Those descriptions are not good, though.
03:18:10 <shachaf> They should have a URL, and they shouldn't say "webcomic".
03:18:35 <zzo38> Yes, probably that would help a bit.
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03:20:17 <monotone> zzo38: Most networks use timestamping for # channels by default to resolve netsplit collisions, so a separate type is superfluous.
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03:21:43 <zzo38> monotone: Well, it makes ! superfluous anyways, but still only if the network is programmed to use the protocol that does that. Also, it doesn't make + superfluous.
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05:09:07 <zzo38> Did you read my Dungeons&Dragons game latest one?
05:12:35 <shachaf> Could you set up some way for me to read it in my browser?
05:12:41 <shachaf> That would make it much easier.
05:13:20 <shachaf> Either serve it as plaintext with text/plain (e.g. with a symlink level20.txt?) or as HTML or as PDF.
05:18:17 <zzo38> Prefix the URL with "view-source:" that might work in some browsers.
05:18:56 <zzo38> Now you can make bets on what would happen next in this game.
05:19:41 <zzo38> I might also add a .htaccess to make it serve as text/plain.
05:22:42 <zzo38> OK I fixed it now.
05:23:15 <zzo38> (Note: The number after "`danddreclist" is the session number.)
05:23:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Now it is text/plain I made the .htaccess to override that file
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05:38:21 <shachaf> I kind of feel bad because application/x-tex is more correct.
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06:20:13 <Jafet> That was a pretty bad loop
06:20:27 <Gracenotes> Everyone can identify with rotating seal.
06:31:43 <Gracenotes> But he alienates his original fans who are generally cynical and depressed and popularity-averse.
07:09:39 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G_IU5lK1E8 even in 2029, when we have 32 TB pages, we will use IPv4
07:09:42 <Bike> and have slow-ass terms
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07:20:34 <monotone> Slow-ass terms without properly aligned text!
07:20:56 <elliott> Bike: ok but this aesthetic is fantastic.
07:21:14 <elliott> I don't even know what's going on but still
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07:28:19 <monotone> Bike: It actually uses your local IP address.
07:43:50 <zzo38> Why does malloc(sizeof(Macro)) cause a segmentation fault even though usually it doesn't?
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07:45:48 <olsner> sounds like the heap is corrupted by something else before you get to that call
07:46:16 <zzo38> O, yes I suppose that might cause it.
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08:23:59 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
08:24:05 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
08:24:12 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
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09:07:30 <shachaf> did you know most `olist readers have never played d&d??
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09:31:39 <HackEgo> BlueShark: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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10:34:55 <fizzie> "Thank you for emailing GIGABYTE. We are delighted with your interest in our products. This is a known issue. Please contact Seagate technical support for latest firmware of Samsung HD105SI. (Seagate took over Samsung HDD business)."
10:35:05 <fizzie> Ooh, I might get my SYSTEM to WORK.
10:37:26 <Jafet> Samsung had a HDD business?
10:38:06 <fizzie> I think it was a "brand" only, maybe? I don't know.
10:38:17 <fizzie> http://knowledge.seagate.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/223631en "This patch code is released in order to solve the compatibilty problem between some motherboards (the AMD SB850 chipset and the Intel P67/H67 chipset) and Samsung-brand hard drives, F3 and F3EG models only."
10:38:40 <fizzie> (I *did* search for updates before, but couldn't find any; only found this via some direct googling.)
10:40:16 <lambdabot> There's a little picture of ED MCMAHON doing BAD THINGS to JOAN RIVERS
10:40:16 <lambdabot> in a $200,000 MALIBU BEACH HOUSE!!
10:41:03 <Jafet> You should remove that picture from the Malibu beach house.
10:41:14 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagram_of_Hard_Disk_Drive_Manufacturer_Consolidation.svg
10:41:51 <fizzie> Of course I just installed an operating system on a different disk this morning. Now I need to decide whether it'll be faster to try moving and resizing it, or just reinstall. (Probably to reinstall.)
10:42:48 <fizzie> "List of defunct hard disk manufacturers" has an (unintentionally?) hilarious title.
10:42:58 <fizzie> "Yeah, I'm not going to buy one of *those*."
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11:24:10 <nortti> ``The equivalent of 'tar xf' is 'cpio -i -d -m' (BSD cpio) or 'cpio -i --make-directories --preserve-modification-time --no-absolute-filenames' (GNU cpio).''
11:24:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `The: not found
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11:28:14 <Deewiant> --make-directories is -d and --preserve-modification-time is -m
11:28:47 <Deewiant> Just use cpio -dim and don't extract weird cpio files
11:30:52 <Deewiant> cpio -mid if antonyms confuse you.
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12:32:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: "cpio -early" "cpio -late" (cf. http://sprunge.us/GNZF for refs).
12:33:54 <fizzie> Alternatively, "cpio -extreme" or some-such.
12:35:24 <Deewiant> If related words confuse you then you're probably screwed anyway.
12:37:07 <Deewiant> You'll probably try to use unzip instead of cpio.
12:37:07 <fizzie> "cpio -idm" -> Intelligent Dance Music -> most antonymical music subgenre -> cpio -something.
12:37:26 <fizzie> (I don't know what the opposite of IDM is.)
12:39:01 <Roujo> Dumb Arythmic Noise
12:40:01 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hDFZ I was sort of not expecting to end up on a permanent announcement mailing list.
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13:23:57 <fizzie> (I used their bus once in June.)
13:24:23 <Taneb> (In Summer? You are a loon!)
13:27:04 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it was too long a walk.
13:27:27 <Taneb> Fair enough. I'm glad we had this talk.
13:27:49 <fizzie> I see what you did there. (But only just now.)
13:27:51 <boily> good fizzie-met-taneb morning!
13:28:11 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:30:13 <Taneb> I have a poetic flair. I'm glad there's no row.
13:33:00 <Jafet> I thought IDM was dumb arrhythmic noise
13:33:51 <Taneb> Pretty sure that that's Chinese Water Torture
13:35:32 <oerjan> why is Taneb sounding like a markov bot
13:36:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Except one that rhymes a lot.
13:36:14 <Taneb> I've missed half the conversation and decided to reply in rhyme without logreading
13:36:20 <fizzie> fungot: Can you do poetry?
13:36:20 <fungot> fizzie: black is white. up is down. their mysql backend must've crashed like three times, each time i run it
13:36:31 <fizzie> Apparently the answer is a resounding yes.
13:36:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:37:00 <Jafet> Whether that counts as poetry is anyone's guess.
13:37:13 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
13:37:23 <Taneb> fungot, what's your best limerick?
13:37:24 <fungot> Taneb: over the next two to the finish line. index 3 of the costs not covered. subject: attached you will find to be next one.
13:38:13 <boily> there are too many people on this channel. let's group them according to their similarities!
13:38:16 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
13:38:21 * boily tie-wraps Taneb onto fungot
13:38:22 <fungot> boily: than the maximum hand size or pending draws for that board of appeals consists of three and fourteen days
13:38:57 * boily duct tapes elliott to oerjan
13:39:09 <fizzie> boily: I've clustered the people here a couple of times.
13:39:10 <oerjan> i'm similar to elliott?
13:39:25 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
13:39:33 <Roujo> fungot, how do you feel?
13:39:35 <fungot> Roujo: with bowers of vines and sweet blossoms, and seats and benches of marble and went down the steep slope that they might find men to whom he flung the remaining coil of fnord and after the crash there was nothing left standing in the street, swarthy, slender, and sinister with latent horror. hieroglyphics had covered the walls and windows shifted. nahum did not send her to the county asylum, but let her wander about the ho
13:39:58 <oerjan> that does not sound very healthy
13:40:15 <boily> oerjan: nah. I just wanted to see what happens. you know. for pure scientific reasons. yeah. science. *whistles*
13:41:03 <fizzie> boily: For example, here are some #esoteric people projected to two dimensions: http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png
13:41:28 <boily> my god, it's full of stars...
13:41:42 <CADD> fizzie: what are the axies?
13:42:02 <boily> fizzie: who is CADD?
13:42:11 <fizzie> CADD: First two principal components from a... I think something 34-dimensional.
13:42:12 <CADD> boily: you can /whois me..
13:42:24 <CADD> boily: who be you?
13:42:47 <boily> fizzie: those are expectation-maximisation ellipses, yes?
13:43:19 <CADD> fizzie: that tells me a lot, lol
13:43:34 <fizzie> boily: They're maximum-likelihood ellipses for 2D gaussians. You don't need EM to fit single ones.
13:43:48 <boily> oh right. my machine learning stuff is getting rusty.
13:43:51 <fizzie> CADD: http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png here's the pre-projection variant, I think it will help.
13:43:51 <CADD> oerjan: exactly
13:44:11 <CADD> fizzie: excellent
13:44:29 <CADD> fizzie: very interesting
13:44:48 <fizzie> It's all very simple textual features. (The word classes are cheats.)
13:45:19 * boily is all contemplative and swoonish
13:45:20 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esoconf.png and that's how well they work in a classifier.
13:45:43 <CADD> oerjan: good catch, most people guess greek
13:45:46 <fizzie> (Of course it was a p. easy task, with just those ten folks and giant blobs of text.)
13:46:24 <boily> can you easily recreate your figures with current members?
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13:46:50 <oerjan> CADD: yeah i thought greek for a second but something was off
13:46:52 <fizzie> boily: No, but I have a much better set of figures that also aren't easily recreatable.
13:47:00 <fizzie> boily: There's a SVM classifier and everything.
13:47:10 <fizzie> boily: (Sadly, I don't remember where I put them.)
13:47:46 <boily> you really went full force on that. I should get back on track with ML; those were fun times.
13:48:09 <CADD> oerjan: well with your last name im guessing you are somewhere in scandinavia
13:49:29 <CADD> boily: ML is great! you should join us in #machinelearning
13:49:37 <fizzie> boily: I'll tell you the story of the cheated word class features in these plots, it's sort of related.
13:49:41 <fizzie> boily: Basically, anything that'd actually try some parsing would've been terribly slow and/or not much better than guessing, so I assigned each word a word class based on its wordnet entry; if the word had entries in several categories, I picked the one with the highest frequency in wordnet's tagged texts.
13:49:46 <fizzie> boily: So every instance of, say, "die", has been considered a verb.
13:50:19 <fizzie> I can't seem to find the newer plots. Possibly because I have a habit of naming files things like "blort4.png". (Cf. http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/blort4.png )
13:51:19 <boily> fizzie: if I ever get back to academia, I'll name a figure “blort4” in your honour, and have a crappitude somewhere in the article.
13:51:52 <fizzie> I don't quite recall what's the proper name for the metric called "crappitude" in that graph.
13:52:21 <fizzie> I think it's the average of within-class accuracy.
13:52:32 <fizzie> (Distinct from accuracy if the classes are of non-uniform size.)
13:52:52 <fizzie> Arguably it's a misleading name, because you want to have a high crappitude.
13:53:30 <quintopia> you should create a graph of fizziliciousness
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13:54:10 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/alise_vs_vorpal.png I have no idea whatsoever what's happening here, but it's certainly something #esoteric-related.
13:54:12 <quintopia> is it just a coincidence that fizzie and boily are both properties held by some liquids?
13:54:35 <fizzie> quintopia: As far as you know.
13:54:38 <Taneb> quintopia, so's elliott
13:54:58 <boily> elliott is a liquid?
13:55:07 <Taneb> Some liquids are elliott
13:55:21 <Taneb> As in, "That's some very elliott coffee"
13:55:21 * boily stirs elliott with a spoon
13:55:41 * boily thwacks Taneb with a not quite ripe banana
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13:55:54 <quintopia> fizzie: so, you can recognize us just by the words we use or...?
13:57:42 <fizzie> quintopia: With the features used above, only for a sufficiently (read: very) large sample. Otherwise there's too much noise in the statistics. (Since they're things like word length distributions and the like.)
13:58:13 <fizzie> Actually, it doesn't really look at any words, except for the counts of particular things like classes of pronouns.
13:58:29 <CADD> fizzie: that also assumes that your language patterns dont drift either
13:58:44 <quintopia> fizzie: i wonder what an optimal classifer of us would look like, one that actually used words as features
13:59:11 <CADD> oerjan: cool cool
14:00:04 <fizzie> "Adversarial Stylometry: Circumventing Authorship Recognition to Preserve Privacy and Anonymity" -- https://psal.cs.drexel.edu/index.php/Main_Page -- was recently featured in /..
14:00:25 <fizzie> (You can use that to avoid being recognized on #esoteric.)
14:00:37 <fizzie> (Possibly combining that with changing your nickname would be advisable, however.)
14:01:41 <quintopia> (and perhaps with connecting from a different network than usual)
14:02:08 <fizzie> (And possibly taking a bath first.)
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14:39:40 <Roujo> cat /dev/urandom >> lambdabot
14:40:20 <Roujo> I once did `cat /dev/urandom` while connected via PuTTY
14:40:26 <Roujo> PuTTY didn't really like it
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15:18:57 <metasepia> Error (1): <hint>:1:3: lexical error at character '\SYN'
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15:23:33 <boily> Roujo: what are you trying to do exactly, you vile elliotty bot abuser?
15:24:01 <Roujo> Some bots strip control codes
15:24:07 <Roujo> Looks like this bot doesn't =P
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15:43:28 <fizzie> I am making a boot floppy, in 2013.
15:49:54 <fizzie> (The Samsung drive flash utility only works from DOS, and does not work in the computer that can't see the drives, so I had to use an old desktop from the closet, and it's too stupid to boot from USB and I don't want to waste a CD-R.)
15:50:07 <fizzie> Also the flash utility was too big to fit on a floppy (1.7M).
15:50:25 <fizzie> Fortunately the computer in question was new enough to support USB storage emulation, even if it doesn't boot from one.
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16:01:15 <kmc> hi everybody
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16:11:52 <kmc> fizzie: awesome
16:12:34 <kmc> reflashing hard drives is always a party
16:12:54 <kmc> I liked it when Samsung released a fix for a critical data loss issue but didn't bother bumping the version number, so you couldn't tell if your drives had it already
16:21:04 <fizzie> The reflash made the drive appear and work everywhere else, except that Windows 8 setup utility says Windows cannot be installed on it because "the system may not support booting from it", or some-such.
16:21:23 <fizzie> Same applies to the SSD, but not the two disks reserved for Linux use.
16:24:41 <kmc> is there anything unusual about these drives
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16:39:52 <FreeFull> Ok, apparently none of the shader code I ever wrote compiles with Mesa ):
16:41:23 <FreeFull> Ok, got it to work by making all integer constants into float constants
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16:45:11 <FreeFull> Which means just putting a whole lot of decimal points all over the place
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17:03:13 <kmc> isn't it great how every renderer implements a slightly different shader language
17:07:21 <Roujo> #define "yes" maybe
17:07:30 <ion> Bret Victor - The Future of Programming http://vimeo.com/71278954
17:09:03 <Roujo> I should really switch to a monospaced font >_>
17:12:34 <boily> as long as you're not using papyrus, I guess everything's fine.
17:12:47 <boily> (or maybe papyrus is the secret to understanding fungot?)
17:12:48 <fungot> boily: i talked with the policemen, seemed at first as perplexed as armitage and his companions ride on fnord or in fnord chariots. carter and his guide climbed up an alley that was all they ever did was clutch and fly and fnord that was not of
17:16:34 <FreeFull> Is there a monospace version of comic sans?
17:18:06 <olsner> fungot: don't you write code in comic sans?
17:18:07 <fungot> olsner: i soon found that it slipped from sight as quickly as i had never before been an extravagant dreamer. many of these took lodgings in the battered houses that had once known the songs of iranon. but though the dreaded martenses were gone, whilst most of the fine scroll-and-urn overmantels and fnord cupboard fnord were gone, pabodie, sherman, ropes, sherman, and the
17:18:39 <olsner> hmm, I guess that counts as avoiding the subject
17:20:09 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
17:20:21 <boily> fungot: pabodie, sherman. sherman. sherman. sherman.
17:20:21 <fungot> boily: if not impossible. if the msb of the video matrix and character dot-data area to act as the current status of that register, switch in the mob-mob collision bit for each sprite can be used
17:24:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:25:03 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
17:25:14 <fungot> Roujo: looking glass, mirror: " if you don't need any help from the silver mountain, while he was born from the cave; the ferocious fear the only good djinni is a long-drawn-out affair. fresh whole tripe calls for a good talisman if handled right.
17:26:59 <boily> I haven't played Djinni yet; I'm still waiting for 0.13 to be out of trunk.
17:33:10 <kmc> error: mismatched types: expected `u32` but found `uint` (expected uint but found u32)
17:38:34 <boily> but, but... all I wanted is to die in new creative ways... won't djinni even offer me that simple pleasure?
17:39:03 <fizzie> kmc: Turns out that creating partitions on the disk and then restarting the installer made it consider the disk kosher.
17:39:35 <fizzie> I had put an empty GPT disklabel on it, and I guess that was maybe too confusing?
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17:45:47 <elliott> 17:21:04 <fizzie> The reflash made the drive appear and work everywhere else, except that Windows 8 setup utility says Windows cannot be installed on it because "the system may not support booting from it", or some-such.
17:45:59 <elliott> I think this means "it's GPT but I'm not sure you have EFI"
17:46:10 <elliott> Windows only supports booting GPT from EFI
17:47:48 <fizzie> I had already set the bios to UEFI-only boot.
17:48:00 <fizzie> But I guess it could've been just confuzzled.
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17:52:34 <elliott> fizzie: "set the bios to UEFI-only"
17:55:08 <fizzie> Yes? I didn't want to boot in legacy mode by accident.
17:56:22 <mnoqy> elliott: is this the thing where uefi is a replacement for bios
17:57:20 <elliott> I was holding off trying to think of a good analogy to describe my reaction to that statement but failed
17:57:22 <boily> dammit. I have sacramental bread stuck to my lips.
17:57:43 <fizzie> boily: Is it still sacramental bread, or is it already Jesus?
17:58:26 <boily> fizzie: no jesus yet.
17:58:32 <boily> elliott: you may dare.
18:03:22 -!- gsteinbrenner has joined.
18:03:46 <boily> `relcome gsteinbrenner
18:03:49 <HackEgo> gsteinbrenner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:05:36 <kmc> fizzie: huh, I would think that to make a disk kosher you would have to cover it in salt and bury it for two weeks
18:05:44 <boily> elliott: well, the truth is that a colleague has «retailles d'hosties» on his desk (you can get them for very cheap at grocery stores). these things are evil, and become like glue if you let them on your lips for too long.
18:06:05 <Roujo> They don't taste like anything though
18:06:08 <Roujo> Why even have them
18:06:37 <boily> they were there, and I was hungry.
18:07:02 <elliott> kmc: read that as computer disk
18:07:04 <elliott> can recommend the experience
18:07:15 <kmc> it was a joke on what fizzie said
18:07:22 <boily> Roujo: sure, I could have had a banana, but our new batch's morphogenic field is already too weak, and I don't like pears.
18:07:23 <elliott> I didn't actually look at what fizzie said though
18:07:27 <kmc> good job elliott
18:07:30 <kmc> team player
18:07:36 <olsner> elliott: he was talking about some disk problem before, I think
18:08:28 <Roujo> boily: Est-ce qu'on parle des mêmes bananes? o_0
18:08:44 <Roujo> Joke de banane molle
18:08:55 <Roujo> `relcome soft banana
18:08:57 <HackEgo> soft: banana: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:09:11 <HackEgo> cat: dog: No such file or directory
18:09:15 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:09:18 <HackEgo> knCvkjxڡqc1}K*hOgiӸ@4۸j0r˭S9"Ѿ!\EZX
18:10:26 <HackEgo> Cthulhu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:10:32 <Roujo> So it's not permanent
18:11:49 <olsner> nice, sounds like we have some thunder rolling in
18:14:04 <olsner> one of the many high points of `?
18:18:04 <metasepia> CYUL 061800Z 21010KT 30SM FEW040 BKN240 24/12 A3007 RMK CU1CI5 SLP182 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
18:18:21 <boily> olsner: where were you, again?
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18:18:45 <Roujo> Why is that output so hard to parse? =P
18:18:57 <Roujo> Also, does `? ngevd always put out garbage?
18:18:59 <HackEgo> ȃyuݴl*yqyhqfj#qL'>L|9\2)_O
18:19:21 <Roujo> In a way, I guess =P
18:19:43 <boily> Roujo: METARs are for airplane pilots, with a (not quite, in fact far from it) standard format.
18:19:58 <metasepia> ESSL 061750Z 16006KT 9999NDV SHRA SCT025CB 20/19 Q1011
18:20:08 <boily> oh, SHRA! lucky you!
18:20:10 <Roujo> boily: Oh, cool =)
18:21:33 <olsner> what does 9999NDV mean?
18:21:41 <boily> first time I see that.
18:22:21 <boily> “No Direction Variable”.
18:22:50 <boily> another source cites “No Direction Visibility”.
18:25:06 <boily> olsner: 9999 means “don't even think about being bothered about ground visibility” and NDV is “and if you're thinking of it, direction doesn't matter”. hth.
18:29:48 <olsner> boily: thanks, I'm not so worried about the visibility now
18:30:21 <olsner> I like how humidity seems to be recorded in dewpoint temperature rather than e.g. humidity
18:30:52 <boily> right now, we're at 47.0%.
18:32:31 <boily> you're at 94.0%. I think it's pouring outside.
18:33:41 <olsner> it's not actually raining now, just ominously rainylooking
18:34:20 <boily> at which distance are you from ESSL?
18:34:41 <kmc> shachaf: hichaf
18:36:44 <boily> so you're probably in northern linköping. how much do you weigh?
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18:37:32 <kmc> how's it going?
18:38:31 <shachaf> my sleeping is back to being kind of messed up :'(
18:38:43 <shachaf> i was waking up at ~7 for a while, it was nice
18:39:38 <kmc> I've been waking up around 07:30 but failing to actually get out of bed until like 08:10
18:39:39 -!- Bike has joined.
18:39:42 <boily> olsner: I'll put you on Norrköpingsvägen in my file.
18:40:00 <shachaf> that kind of schedule would be fine with me
18:40:16 -!- desu__ has joined.
18:40:25 <HackEgo> desu__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:40:31 -!- sacje has joined.
18:40:56 <HackEgo> sacje: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:41:16 <sacje> why thank you Roujo
18:42:02 <shachaf> Roujo: Have you considered the many advantages of a seven-letter nick?
18:42:11 <shachaf> I think you'd be much better off with one.
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18:42:46 <boily> Roujo: don't listen to that unorthodox heretic. 5 is the way to godliness.
18:43:25 <Roujo> shachaf: Meh. I'm aither named Roujo or Skynet, really.
18:43:31 <mnoqy> shachaf: still going on about that?
18:43:34 <Roujo> Or Gilnaur/Feyllin in games.
18:44:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: you can keep your five-letter nick
18:45:25 -!- desu__ has changed nick to katla.
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18:45:51 <Roujo> shachaf: So, advantages, you say? Do tell.
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19:06:56 <olsner> hmm, so according to this speaker voice they were going to reveal "the identity of the 12th doctor"
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19:10:23 <fizzie> "This partition is formatted with the ntfs." Oh debian-installer, you so funny.
19:15:36 <Gregor> I should participate in the IOCCC but I have no ideas :(
19:16:18 <boily> I'm perusing the crawl sources through gitk, and I stumbled upon a commit about “nooodl-y vaults (#7353)”.
19:16:19 <shachaf> Gregor: maybe you should participate in icfpc
19:16:23 <boily> is that from our own nooodl?
19:16:30 <shachaf> should i do that? i have 4 hours to decide
19:16:49 <nooodl> i'm in CREDITS.txt, too!
19:16:49 <katla> icfp always seems so boring to me
19:17:05 <nooodl> all for making some crappy vaults
19:17:07 <katla> i dont unerstand how people can bear playing it
19:17:26 <shachaf> olsner: In 52 hours or so.
19:17:28 <elliott> boily: the elliotts are also me
19:17:38 <shachaf> Registration deadline is 48 hours before.
19:18:00 <katla> can you enter without registering?
19:18:25 * boily ties ellioerjan to nooodl with hemp rope
19:18:30 <olsner> "To participate in the contest you need to pre-register with EasyChair. The pre-registration will close 72 hours prior to the contest, so register now."
19:18:58 <shachaf> "You need to pre-register for the contest, 48 hours prior (extended from 72h) to the contest at the latest."
19:19:11 <shachaf> "this year's contest will involve an element of program synthesis"
19:19:52 <katla> im kind of interested but i know ill give up as soon as i see the actual problem set :/
19:21:20 <olsner> why are they using what appears to be a system for submitting papers?
19:21:59 <Gregor> Because they're part of ICFP.
19:22:05 <Gregor> And probably just inherited the system from that.
19:23:55 <shachaf> I don't think this system was used before? I don't know.
19:26:43 <katla> can someone paste me the challenge once its released
19:26:54 <katla> or maybe itll be an annoyig one where you have to submit to test your code
19:27:00 <Taneb> Should I enter the ICFPC? I'd probably suck at it
19:27:10 <katla> you should enter if you're going to seriously try
19:27:47 <Taneb> It'd be a solo project by a bored teenager against teams of professionals possibly
19:28:13 <shachaf> professional icfpc competitor
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19:30:30 <zzo38> What challenge is that? Does it involve submitting a paper?
19:30:33 <boily> “Fix a Kirke crash by deporkalating transiting hogs correctly.” :D
19:31:04 <shachaf> zzo38: No, it involves writing a programs.
19:31:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICFP_Programming_Contest#Past_tasks
19:32:01 <zzo38> If the program is written in WEB then you can submit a papers too, though?
19:32:39 <zzo38> What programming languages do they use? And it says "what appears to be a system for submitting papers" so is it a system for submitting papers or not?
19:32:41 <shachaf> Once the contest is finished, a few teams will be asked to submit two page document describing their solutions to be considered for the judges prize.
19:33:00 <shachaf> There's a system which was designed for submitting papers but instead it's used for registering your team for the contest.
19:36:09 <olsner> shachaf: do you have something like a team to register yourself with?
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19:36:33 <Taneb> I've just registered as an individual
19:36:42 <Taneb> It's teams or individuals
19:37:04 <shachaf> I think I will probably not do the contest.
19:37:50 <zzo38> O, so you are using a system designed for something else. It seems also like how registration for Z-Comp uses a system designed for a MUD (to enter Z-Comp, you register an account on ifMUD, and then go into my apartment, and then go northwest, and then fill up the forms in that room; but first you have to calculate the SHA-1 hash of your entry before filling up the forms).
19:38:40 <boily> zzo38: where is your apartment?
19:38:53 <zzo38> boily: The apartment number is 11011
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19:39:53 <Taneb> Free [] almost represents S-expressions
19:40:01 <boily> zzo38: I mean, IRL, unless if 11011 is already irly, then it's fine. I was subtly trying to subvertly extract your approximate coördinates.
19:40:12 <zzo38> boily: It has no location IRL.
19:40:30 <zzo38> (If you want my approximate coordinates the best thing you can do is by the IP address.)
19:40:54 <shachaf> zzo38: What about your (approximate?) body weigh?
19:41:06 <zzo38> I didn't figure it out recently and I don't want to tell to you.
19:43:00 <zzo38> boily: Yes, that's close enough.
19:46:01 <zzo38> Do you know my ifMUD apartment has three floors, and the top one is rotating?
19:48:58 <boily> zzo38: you are tempting me with your mud talk.
19:54:07 <zzo38> The temple is so bright, that I install a darkness generator, so that it is a bit less bright.
19:57:17 <boily> as I understand it, ifMUD is like minecraft?
19:58:13 <zzo38> You look (you can connect as a guest if you do not want to registration)
19:58:23 <zzo38> It is ifmud.org port 4000
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20:09:11 <boily> zzo38: how do I reach your apartment?
20:09:38 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
20:09:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:09:57 <zzo38> boily: The closest place you can teleport to is #20080. (Type '@teleport #20080')
20:10:01 <zzo38> And then type 11011 to enter.
20:13:56 <zzo38> Do you like this I wrote some messages in side of there
20:14:15 <boily> it sounds interesting.
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20:21:53 <zzo38> If you write 'finger zzo38' then you can see my plan contains a quine.
20:22:51 <zzo38> The @print command in JotaCode is for concatenating strings; it doesn't actually print anything.
20:28:51 <boily> JotaCode feels very esoteric...
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20:36:57 <olsner> how reliable are those sound-of-keyboard attacks? I wonder if you could use that to make a wireless keyboard by just disconnecting your keyboard and connecting a microphone
20:37:38 <boily> careful of pianists who drum their keyboards!
20:38:42 <boily> quintopia: I think kmc is in boston. otherwise, the closest person is jsvine in NYC.
20:39:00 <Bike> kmc moved to caliland
20:39:34 <kmc> that's correct
20:39:56 <kmc> edwardk is in Boston and copumpkin is in connecticut
20:39:59 <kmc> but neither is in this channel :<
20:40:27 <boily> kmc: looking at your nëw coördinates, the closest member is Fiora.
20:40:37 <zzo38> Do any of you ever go in to Victoria, BC sometimes?
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20:40:51 <Fiora> there's nobody else in SF?
20:40:52 <kmc> boily: you must not have coördinates from shachaf or Gracenotes then
20:40:53 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure zzo38 goes there most of the time
20:40:55 <olsner> copumpkin used to be here, did he leave or is he just intermittent?
20:41:07 <kmc> (or douglass_ or iamfishhead)
20:41:34 <quintopia> @ask edwardk hi wanna be friends in boston
20:41:45 <kmc> also wasn't somebody here a MIT student? Vorpal?
20:41:48 <kmc> am I completely imagining that?
20:42:21 <boily> kmc: indeed. I don't have Gracenotes yet, and shachaf is the current Unchallenged Champion of Not Wanting to be Coördinated.
20:42:31 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
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20:43:28 <Bike> zzo38: it's a few hours north of me, i gues
20:44:44 <boily> Bike: can I get your approximate coördinates and body weigh? as a bonus, you'll be the first entry in my file!
20:45:09 <HackEgo> megalun is a chain of a million SCSI devices. FreeFull weighs 482 of them.
20:45:34 <Bike> 45 north, 122 west, 200 lbs.
20:45:44 <kmc> zzo38: I would like to go to Vancouver sometime and maybe I would go to Victoria as well
20:46:08 <Bike> i don't have a passport so i gues canading would be hard
20:46:14 <kmc> you should fix that
20:46:55 <boily> Canading is plenty worth it. you'll get to meet nice people, eat nice and healthy Canadian food, and enjoy the local scenery and mooses!
20:47:07 <Bike> we get moose here anyway.
20:48:09 <Bike> http://nedroid.com/2011/05/passport/ also
20:48:16 <boily> but our mooses are the most authenticest there is.
20:49:33 <Bike> http://nedroid.com/2013/05/oh-canada/ boily.
20:51:09 <boily> we... uhm... we don't have any fascination whatsoever to funnels. yes. we don't. right. no funnels.
20:51:46 <boily> Roujo: you don't have any funnels on you, do you? in fact, you don't even know what a funnel is?
20:53:23 * boily twitches underneath his "poker" face
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21:08:58 <kmc> somebody want to add fundeps to Rust
21:09:01 <kmc> that would really make my day
21:10:41 <olsner> didn't know Rust had something fundeps could be applied to
21:11:09 <olsner> hmm, should I learn Rust? is that a good idea or anything?
21:11:09 -!- Bike has joined.
21:11:38 <Bike> rust is the wave of the future, imo,
21:13:53 <kmc> olsner: it kind of accidentally sort of has multi-parameter typeclasses
21:14:53 <kmc> it has single-parameter "traits" which are like typeclasses, but you can also parametrize a trait on other type variables (like parametrizing a struct or a function)
21:15:02 <kmc> so you could say that Foo implements trait Bar<Baz, Bleh>
21:15:13 <kmc> which is like a 3-param typeclass except that the Foo location is still special in some ways
21:15:16 <kmc> kinda gross imo
21:15:21 <kmc> I guess Java interfaces + generics are like this too?
21:16:01 <kmc> like, public class Node<T extends Comparable<T>>
21:16:33 <kmc> olsner: Rust is a cool and unique language; I suggest learning some stuff about it
21:16:53 <kmc> actually writing and maintaining a library or something could be painful because the language still changes a huge amount every week
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21:25:30 <FreeFull> Rust actually looks at what has been happening in the programming language world
21:26:37 <kmc> they aren't really in the same niche either
21:27:50 <kmc> Go uses garbage collection for everything, which is fine for many applications, but we already have Java, C#, Haskell, OCaml, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc.
21:28:15 <kmc> Rust is a replacement for C++, which almost nobody else is seriously attempting
21:28:43 <zzo38> What is the replacement for C?
21:29:20 <kmc> or you know I should say "Rust is aiming to become a viable replacement for C++ years from now"
21:30:09 <kmc> I see Go as Java, simplified even further, with syntax weird enough that the "C is h4rdc0re" crowd will accept it
21:30:23 <kmc> it does have some things going (ha!) for it, though
21:33:05 <kmc> @MVPoliceBlotter "Man wearing Google Glass breaks window after walking into it while watching YouTube on El Camino Real near Calderon Ave."
21:34:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:35:34 <zzo38> Do you know if they are making a replacement of C as well or only of C++? There are some variants of C which are mostly C, such as Cyclone, Objective-C, and Black-C, but do they do it differently?
21:37:36 <kmc> desk 7115, 2 Harrison St., San Francisco, CA 94110, United States of America
21:37:44 <zzo38> I did see the macro system in Rust seems like it does a lot of things.
21:38:28 <quintopia> whoa. what a coincidence. that's where i launched the ICBM
21:39:56 <kmc> I'm going to get kicked from ##c++ for telling them to use Rust won't i
21:40:14 <mnoqy> telling ##c++ to use rust sounds like a good idea
21:40:25 <mnoqy> possibly even better than being in ##c++ to begin with
21:40:29 <shachaf> kmc: oh no you're like those people who come into #haskell :'(
21:40:39 <kmc> I do actually answer C++ qusetions though
21:40:43 <kmc> maybe correctly
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21:46:49 <kmc> what are the standard workarounds for lack of fundeps anyway
21:47:46 -!- Bike has joined.
21:48:14 <Bike> ok, does anyone know a good linux distro for an idiot with a netbook. because my ubuntu is really not cutting it
21:48:16 <shachaf> lots of type annotations hth
21:48:30 <kmc> Bike: ubuntu with not gnome
21:48:35 <kmc> xubuntu or whatever
21:48:37 <Bike> that's what i'm using now :(
21:48:43 <kmc> well whats not cutting it
21:49:00 <Bike> well the main problem, i don't even know if it's ubuntu really
21:49:14 <shachaf> Bike: check for a Canonical Genuine Ubuntu sticker
21:49:23 <kmc> <Griwes> anyway, soon enough C++ will be The Haskell Done Right and all rusts and haskells will be irrelevant
21:49:31 <Bike> but my wireless cuts out at random intervals and i can't figure out a way to recover that doesn't involve restarting my computer (which is irritating)
21:49:46 <Bike> and i can't for the life of me figure out what the fuck is happening, there's a lot of closed issues in linux-wireless and ugh
21:50:04 <shachaf> Bike: Does rmmod-modprobe work as a workaround instead of restarting?
21:50:26 <kmc> what's yer kernel version?
21:50:27 <Bike> the reason i'm irritated at ubuntu is, in concert with this, the last upgrade whatever made it so that it waits /two whole minutes/ every boot to get a nonexistent network configuration
21:50:35 <kmc> might be you can get a newer kernel from a PPA or something
21:50:38 <shachaf> Does dmesg say anything good?
21:50:39 <Bike> i just edited an /etc to fix that particular issue but i'm not liking where this is going
21:50:52 <Bike> shachaf: i can paste the dmesg if you want
21:50:57 <Bike> kmc: um how do i check (see: idiot)
21:51:13 <shachaf> i'm no expert on debugging wireless things
21:51:14 <Bike> 3.2.0-48-generic
21:51:50 <Bike> i used some backported driver i don't understand to make it fail every few minutes instead of every few seconds, but bluh
21:52:55 <Bike> been doing that.
21:53:09 <shachaf> not the giving up part apparently
21:53:24 <Bike> the dmesg is like Failed to wakeup in 500us // Failed to stop TX DMA! // DMA failed to stop in 10 ms AR_CR=0xffffffff AR_DIAG_SW=0xffffffff DMADBG_7=0xffffffff and then keeps on going like that forever
21:53:57 <Bike> i'm reasonably sure this is far beyond my ken and just want it to stop :(
21:54:00 <shachaf> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=137643
21:54:03 <shachaf> "There were lots of fixes to ath9k recently. So I suggest you try compat-wireless or the latest kernel, which currently is 3.3-rc7"
21:54:10 <shachaf> maybe that's what your backported driver is, though?
21:54:15 <Bike> well i can try getting compat-wireless again.
21:54:16 <shachaf> but maybe try the latest kernel anyway
21:54:48 <shachaf> That particular post is from over a year ago.
21:55:08 <Bike> yeah. i know. i've googled around and gotten lots of stuff like that.
21:55:29 <shachaf> So did you try a new kernel yet?
21:55:43 <kmc> give up and buy http://www.amazon.com/Edimax-EW-7811Un-Wireless-Adapter-Wizard/dp/B003MTTJOY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375826132&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+wifi+adapter
21:55:51 <shachaf> Or maybe did you try the nohwcrypt=1 thing?
21:55:55 <kmc> except the driver for that might also suck
21:56:08 <kmc> I do have one like this working very well ,but not with in-tree drivers
21:56:18 <kmc> could dig up the exact part number and the driver tarball I used, if desired
21:56:32 <shachaf> i have a usb wireless adapter you're free to take if you stop by
21:56:35 <Bike> i think i tried the nohwcrypt at some point... yes it's still there.
21:57:03 <Bike> now excuse me while i try to figure out how to get a new kernel through apt
21:57:04 <shachaf> well, maybe that's what's causing the problems!!
21:57:24 <kmc> Bike: look for a PPA
21:57:38 <shachaf> there's one called kernel-ppa
21:59:12 <Bike> i've been thinking of moving away from ubuntu anyway, though. i don't use gnome (or other default things like NetworkManager) and all the wiki instructions assume i do, and stuff like that.
21:59:17 <Bike> my system is really frankenstein and shitty.
22:00:43 <kmc> i'm glad you don't use gnome and NetworkManager
22:01:01 -!- bicyclidine has joined.
22:01:19 <shachaf> have you considered running your irc client on a server somewhere
22:01:36 <bicyclidine> Well, here we go, I could just use my phone for everything! V_V
22:01:38 <shachaf> You use irssi anyway, it seems.
22:01:38 -!- bicyclidine has quit (Client Quit).
22:01:51 <Bike> shachaf: idiot, lazy, etc.
22:02:21 <Bike> kmc: when unity came out i was still using gnome, and i was all like huh, it's for netbooks? maybe this is for me! and then i tried it and all the 3d gobledegook made it unusable on my integrated graphics card :D
22:02:22 <oerjan> * boily ties ellioerjan to nooodl with hemp rope <-- this is starting to get kinky hth
22:02:39 <shachaf> Bike: That's why I'm telling you to do it!
22:03:09 <Bike> because i'm a stupid idiot?
22:03:27 <shachaf> Bike: Because you're lazy, so you need encouragement.
22:03:50 <Bike> oh. well, i'd need a server first. i don't think i'd really use a linode or whatever.
22:05:36 <Bike> i kind of like just disconnecting when i'm not online instead of making a computer spin when i don't need it. it only gets annoying when i disconnect for stupidly having to restart, and uch.
22:06:30 <shachaf> imo trick someone into letting you use their server
22:06:39 <Bike> I tried that but elliott is also lazy.
22:06:49 -!- augur has joined.
22:07:12 <shachaf> have you considered all the other possibilities
22:07:32 <shachaf> like the free ec2 thing kmc talks about??
22:07:56 <monotone> I think what shachaf is trying to say is that he's got a server that he'd like you to use. ;)
22:10:03 <Bike> apparently you need a credit card for AWS even if you're only using free stuff. so that's cool
22:10:54 <shachaf> maybe you can trick other people (not me though!!)
22:11:23 <shachaf> like kmc or monotone or Fiora
22:11:40 <Bike> so i can buy things from amazon without a credit card, but can't not buy things, i guess.
22:13:08 <kmc> I wonder if you can use a prepaid debit card
22:13:08 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:13:24 <Bike> i buy stuff on amazon with a debit card.
22:13:29 <fizzie> I wonder if you can use someone else's credit card.
22:13:37 <kmc> oh, you can sign up for AWS with a debit card
22:13:39 <kmc> I did that
22:13:43 <kmc> I don't have a credit card
22:13:50 -!- augur has joined.
22:13:56 <kmc> it's funny how people get really agitated when I say that I don't have a credit card
22:14:05 <Fiora> I don't have one either...?
22:14:06 <kmc> and start listing all the advantages as though surely I'm just unaware of them
22:14:09 <Fiora> but my debit card is a visa so it's the same thing
22:14:17 <kmc> well, it's not
22:14:27 <elliott> they're made of PLASTIC, kmc. you're missing out
22:14:36 <elliott> you can finally stop bartering with ducks and gooses
22:14:44 <kmc> I don't have much that a goose wants, anyway
22:14:50 <kmc> some bread I guess
22:14:55 <Fiora> okay okay, unlike a credit card, the APR is 0% :P
22:16:06 <fizzie> I have a credit card, and the APR is 0%.
22:16:14 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:16:18 <monotone> I mostly use my credit card for online transactions. My bank lets me generate one-off numbers, which is handy for beating back my paranoia.
22:16:23 <Bike_> well i gues i can do that.
22:16:31 <Fiora> ooh, one-off credit card numbers? that's kind of cool
22:16:34 <fizzie> (It's been configurated to pay 100% of the thing every month, and it has no monthly fixed payment.)
22:16:45 <Bike_> I mean god knows they've already gotten hundreds of dollars out of that card
22:16:51 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:16:56 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:17:04 <Bike> maybe at school i'll get a bit of server space to use
22:17:24 <elliott> I would host Bike's IRC except I don't trust myself to not abuse my root powers
22:17:25 <fizzie> Only noticeable issue: they keep sending letters every now and then about how it'd be much more "flexible" if I changed the minimum-payment amount to something that's less than 100%.
22:17:28 <monotone> It's also handy for when stored numbers get compromised. As has happened to me before.
22:18:05 <Bike> elliott: one time at a party a friend and i swapped ircs for the hell of it
22:18:32 <Bike> also i'm actually unsure of what i would use a credit card for
22:19:20 <monotone> Running up massive quantities of debt?
22:19:28 <Bike> i guess if i wanted to pay for something before i had a paycheck?
22:20:20 <monotone> Well, depending on the card you can get little niceties like cash back on certain transactions or whatever.
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22:29:20 <Bike> so, this is cool. if i call a number on the landline the internet cuts out, but if i call on my cellphone - which, out here, uses the wi-fi - internet's fine.
22:29:24 <Bike> is it possible i'm in robot hell?
22:30:08 <shachaf> Bike: did you get those dsl thingies
22:31:08 <elliott> do you really not have filters on your phone sockets?
22:31:15 <elliott> those come with the modem I think
22:31:49 <Bike> i think i'm just o bad with computers.. so bad. in twenty years i'm going to be like the CS professor who doesn't know what version control is
22:32:47 <shachaf> otherwise you might get internet cancer
22:32:50 <Bike> i'm moving out this week.
22:32:52 <shachaf> (well you get that anyway)
22:33:07 <Bike> Northern CA. The part not in CA.
22:33:08 <Fiora> yeah, the filters are important because diesel internet makes a lot of toxic fumes
22:33:45 <oerjan> Bike: "who needs landlines anyway" -- norwegian telenor
22:33:46 <kmc> ooh where in northern ca?
22:33:48 <shachaf> Bike: Oh, no, Medford, OR? :-(
22:33:56 <Bike> slightly north of medford
22:34:13 <Bike> i'm not actually moving to california. i am moving across the state i am already in, which is not california.
22:34:44 <shachaf> Anyway, don't move to Medford.
22:36:54 <kmc> i used to live in Medford, MA
22:37:53 <Bike> north of oregon.
22:38:53 <monotone> There's still one state left in between Oregon and Canada.
22:39:34 <kmc> Bikes of Canada
22:40:08 <shachaf> which is where Bike lives now, and also where i lived for almost a decade
22:40:51 <Bike> you got me. i'm moving to iqaluit
22:41:48 <monotone> Say hi to a polar bear for me.
22:52:18 <kmc> moving to ᐃᖃᓗᐃᑦ
22:53:29 <elliott> kmc: does Rust have any OpenGL bindings (should I just google this)
22:54:02 <kmc> "Due to Newfoundland's high debt load, arising from World War I and construction of the Newfoundland railroad, and decreasing revenue, due to the collapse of fish prices, the Newfoundland legislature voted itself temporarily out of existence in 1933 in exchange for loan guarantees."
22:54:07 <kmc> elliott: yes we're using them for Servo
22:54:19 <elliott> kmc: oh! should have thought of that
22:54:40 <elliott> do you use the fancy programmable pipeline with shaders and all that?
22:54:47 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla-servo/rust-opengles https://github.com/bjz/glfw-rs
22:54:49 <kmc> uh i don't think so
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22:54:58 <kmc> you kind of have to with OpenGL ES?
22:55:12 <kmc> i dunno man
22:55:17 <elliott> well I mean, do you use the deprecated glBegin type stuff
22:55:24 <elliott> I would assume not since servo is meant to be all GPU-y isn't it
22:55:24 <kmc> ddon't think that exists in ES
22:55:31 <zzo38> What is "Calcutta (Taxi, Taxi, Taxi)"? I have a cover of this which is rewritten for 2A03+MMC5 soundchips, by Archj.
22:55:41 <kmc> our drawing is behind several layers of abstraction though
22:56:12 <elliott> this binding looks somewhat incomplete
22:56:24 <kmc> ``patches welcome''
22:56:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `patches: not found
22:56:26 <elliott> or maybe OpenGL ES is just tiny??
22:56:56 <elliott> kmc: do you have to use the... servo fork of the rust compiler... for this
22:57:02 <elliott> (why does servo have its own rust)
22:57:08 <kmc> it's not a fork just an old version
22:57:26 <kmc> because the Rust language changes every day and we would like not to spend all day every day porting Servo to today's version of Rust
22:57:32 <elliott> I started working on Haskell bindings to hubbub
22:57:33 <kmc> instead we spent a few days every month on that
22:57:37 <kmc> that's what I'm doing right now actually
22:57:38 <elliott> gave up when I had to modify one of its dependencies to be thread-safe
22:57:46 <kmc> well really what I'm doing is slamming my head into a brick wall due to lack of fundeps, but in theory
22:57:47 <elliott> (their interning library or whatever)
22:59:04 <kmc> incredible worldwide gangster computer god secret containment policy
22:59:11 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/b7c651eba14e9a34af8a5eeab58c040f/tumblr_mr4rbolZZt1s5f5n9o1_500.jpg hey good news, i found a worse version of that xkcd comic.
23:03:15 <kmc> shachaf: maybe I should give up on real polymorphism and use macros
23:04:00 <shachaf> kmc: imo implement polymorphism using macros
23:04:22 <shachaf> What do you need fundeps for, anyway?
23:04:56 <kmc> no but actually https://github.com/mozilla/servo/blob/master/src/components/util/tree.rs#L88
23:05:30 <kmc> there should be a 1-to-1 relationship between N and NR but sometime in the past month the compiler realized that it has no reason to assume there is one
23:05:36 <kmc> and I have no way to tell it that there is one
23:05:56 <elliott> it upsets me how rust does this privilegign a singel object thing
23:06:02 <elliott> like its "existentials" too
23:12:07 <Bike> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=13271 drepper is fucking amazing
23:12:54 <shachaf> i'm not sure general existentials make that much sense in rust.........
23:13:30 <elliott> does rust include what you're closing over in the type of funptrs
23:15:39 <kmc> you can write &fn: Clone(x: int) -> char
23:15:56 <elliott> I don't understand that syntax :/
23:16:07 <kmc> the ': Clone' bit says that all the free variables need to implement the Clone trait, i.e. be copyable
23:16:35 <shachaf> you know the thing ski always talks about with -># ?
23:16:38 <elliott> do you know the "a -> b = exists s. (# s, (# s, a #) -># b #)" thing
23:16:50 <kmc> people brought that up in #rust actually
23:16:50 <elliott> I was wondering if Rust had anything corresponding to -># I think
23:17:01 <kmc> extern "Rust" fn(x: int) -> char
23:17:13 <kmc> is guaranteed to have no free variables and is represented by a raw code pointer
23:17:18 <kmc> (but not with the C calling convention)
23:17:29 <kmc> it uses the \rainbow{Rust calling convention!}
23:17:42 <Bike> how are closures represented with this anyhow
23:17:56 <shachaf> elliott: you mean way behind hth
23:18:05 <kmc> I don't know exactly how closures are represented in Rust
23:18:11 <Bike> way ahind of you shalliott
23:18:51 <kmc> you can have @fn (managed box with free variables in it) and &fn (borrowed pointer to somebody else's box of free variables)
23:19:00 <Bike> ok next pointless question, do things that are usually uh stack-allocated (like fixnums) implement Copy
23:19:11 <kmc> if you call a function and use a lambda expression for one of the args, then that'll stack-allocate free variables and pass an &fn, I think
23:19:17 <elliott> in particular I'm broadly interested in a languages where you actually construct closures with that existential construction
23:19:27 <shachaf> i like how awodey always calls his category C and an object in that category C
23:19:49 <elliott> and where the notion of references is advanced enough to allow denoting read/write access to variables in the context as elements of that tuple
23:19:59 <kmc> and I guess there's also ~fn, where the function is uniquely owned and so are all its free variables
23:20:08 <Bike> elliott: any chance you could walk me through that type signature
23:20:09 <kmc> that's what the task-spawning function takes
23:20:49 <elliott> (sort of a pet vapourware project of mine -- a functional language with things like linear types and this -># thing etc. that has full memory control (and no automatic hidden allocation or GC, etc.) but still has all the goodies like higher-order functions, without requiring turning everything into a pointer or closure etc.)
23:20:59 <elliott> (I think it overlaps heavily with Rust, but I started thinking about it before I knew of Rust)
23:21:11 <kmc> yeah that sounds similar
23:21:38 <elliott> Bike: the one with a lot of #s?
23:22:04 <elliott> Bike: (# a, b #) is an unboxed tuple of a and b, i.e. (# a, b #) -> c literally just takes "two arguments", there's no pointers allocated etc. in the construction of the unboxed tuple
23:22:24 <elliott> Bike: (exists s. ...) is ... with a hidden type "s" that the user of the value doesn't know what it is -- the person who constructs the value chooses it
23:22:34 <elliott> (doesn't exist with that syntax in Haskell but you can construct the same thing)
23:22:40 <Bike> is s the free variables?
23:22:44 <kmc> also there's ~once fn which is only called once, so after it's been called you get the owned free variables back???? tbh dont understand this one
23:22:50 <elliott> (a -># b) doesn't exist, but it's basically a raw function pointer from a to b
23:22:58 <kmc> ahem FunPtr a b
23:23:02 <elliott> like, say the syntax is (\# x -> ...) :: (a -># b)
23:23:09 <elliott> in ..., you can't use any variables in the context
23:23:09 <kmc> er is it FunPtr (a -> b) w/e
23:23:10 <Bike> ok i was just missing what s was, i think, thanks
23:23:23 <elliott> so let's say you wanted to do
23:23:30 <elliott> foo :: Int -> (Int -> Int)
23:24:09 <elliott> foo = (# (), (\# ((), m) -> (# m, (\# (m', n) -> m' + n ) #) ) #)
23:24:17 <elliott> this is hideously ugly but hopefully you can see what's going on
23:24:23 <elliott> inside the inner \# you couldn't reference m
23:24:27 <elliott> you can to explicitly close over it
23:24:30 <elliott> the corresponding C structure is
23:24:43 <elliott> struct closure { void *data; B code(void *data, A param); }, basically
23:24:47 <zzo38> Yes it is sensible to me.
23:24:55 <elliott> where you do closure->code(closure->data, param) to call it
23:24:58 <Bike> that is really fucking ugly
23:25:01 <elliott> just you get fancy type magic here
23:25:16 <Bike> but yeah that makes sense, i'm used to closure = raw ptr + some vector
23:25:23 <elliott> Bike: well then what you do is you introduce (\x -> ...) as sugar for (# closure, \# (# closure, x #) -> ... #)
23:25:28 <elliott> where closure is all the local variables you use in ...
23:26:18 <Bike> in kernel magic idea i should really work on i was thinking of having $vau work like that
23:26:37 <Bike> also has the convenience that the "raw pointer" is obviou
23:27:10 <Bike> i think you could do lambda lifting pretty nicely that way
23:29:04 <Bike> that is, uh, you make (\x -> ...) just (\x -># ...) when possible, obviously.
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23:37:27 <elliott> kmc: Bike: in particular, I think it would be cool to have a non-existential version of this
23:37:32 <elliott> where the "s" is actually part of the type
23:37:41 <kmc> elliott: oh re graphix libraries, look at https://github.com/mozilla/servo/tree/master/src#supporting-libraries
23:37:43 <Bike> yeah that could be nice
23:38:01 <elliott> like (Int ->{a :: Int, b :rw: Int} String)
23:38:13 <elliott> so that closes over two things, read-only Int a and read-write Int b
23:38:20 <elliott> and at runtime it'll look like e.g.
23:38:22 <Bike> so if you had a function that took a thing-that-closes-over-1-Int you could vector pass the number and the ptr in some situations, or something
23:38:37 <elliott> struct this_closure { int a; int *b; string (*foo)(int a, int *b, int param); }
23:38:39 <kmc> elliott: I think azure calls skia and skia calls opengles???
23:38:41 <kmc> don't know why
23:38:49 <elliott> kmc: will look after finishing rambling
23:38:59 <elliott> anyway the idea then that higher-order functions would be written *polymorphic* to this closure part
23:39:17 <elliott> so that things don't necessarily have to get bundled up in a closure to be passed higher-order at all
23:39:19 <Bike> mostly i got irrationally annoyed once i realized after far too long that "returning a closure" allocated memory same as actual alloc calls, but looks exactly like returning a bare function
23:39:24 <elliott> and you can have control structures that you know get all inlined out and stuff
23:39:28 <elliott> (skipping even the need for a funptr)
23:39:46 <elliott> this sort of stuff is similar to C++ lambdas I think with the kind of control you get
23:39:49 <Bike> "eventually just optimize everything into IMUL cals"
23:40:18 <elliott> basically my hidden motivation here is that I want something that looks like Haskell but you can also e.g. write a memory manager to run on the bare metal with
23:40:30 <elliott> (a strongly-typed memory manager)
23:40:33 <Bike> that's the opposite of hidden.
23:40:52 <elliott> so now it's no longer hidden
23:40:55 <Bike> no i mean, it was obvious before.
23:41:11 <Bike> btw are we getting "mad hintz" of @ here
23:42:20 <elliott> I would use this kind of stuff in @ yes, but actually it's a bit less vapourware than @
23:42:21 <Bike> the other thing that would be nice is if you could use this as a jit, which moves me into full no idea what i'm talking about territory
23:42:33 <elliott> in that I can imagine trying to implement it if I got a good enough grip on the design and the design looks vaguely grippable
23:43:11 <elliott> Bike: though the language I'd want for @ would be basically fully dependently-typed. this thing is only kind of dependently-typed.
23:43:35 <Bike> elliott: er isn't everything you've said so far independent of dependent types?
23:43:55 <Bike> then i mean... why say that.
23:44:01 <elliott> well you asked about mad hintz of @.
23:44:08 <elliott> the sorta dependent types come in when describing memory layout, in this language.
23:44:18 <Bike> "though the language i'd want for @ would have full complex arithmetic. this thing doesn't have any complex arithmetic"
23:44:27 <Bike> wait, memory layout? how?
23:45:01 <Bike> man i'm so bad at PLT, i still don't get how dependent types are different from like, integral range types
23:45:06 <Sgeo> I should start reporting bugs against Pharo
23:45:08 <elliott> Bike: do you know the kind of bullshit structure layouts you get in OSes and networking
23:45:11 <Bike> and when i say "PLT" i mean "anything in this channel".
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23:45:15 <Bike> elliott: kinda.
23:45:29 <Sgeo> There are just so many bugs :(
23:45:41 <Bike> like addrinfo?
23:45:55 <elliott> Bike: ok well take a look at the second and third pictures here http://wiki.osdev.org/Global_Descriptor_Table#Structure
23:46:03 <elliott> note how base and limit are like
23:46:08 <elliott> sprawled across multiple words
23:46:34 <Bike> oh. yeah. fuck those
23:46:36 <elliott> and this is awful to deal with because you have to do the bitpacking yourself etc.
23:46:47 <elliott> so I'd like a way to first specify precise bit alignments etc. of structures
23:47:00 <elliott> and then say "there's a base field made by bitpacking these other precisely-sized smaller-than-word fields together"
23:47:05 <elliott> and then just use that everywhere.
23:47:21 <Bike> what does that have to do with dependent types
23:47:24 <elliott> and then I also want to be able to e.g. represent a TCP packet directly as a structure within the language, with the correct in-memory layout
23:47:28 <elliott> Bike: I'm gettting theeeeeeeeeeere
23:47:51 <elliott> so uh you know how ADTs are generally represented with a tag word
23:47:55 <elliott> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
23:47:59 <elliott> you store a word for whether it's Nothing or Just
23:48:08 <Bike> ok i didn't know it was a whole word though?
23:48:18 <elliott> actually GHC does it a bit different It hink but w/e
23:48:27 <elliott> and that kind of thing also comes up explicitly in a lot of protocoly type stuff
23:48:35 <elliott> like "if this flag is this then it has this layout otherwise it has another"?
23:48:40 <Bike> oh. yeah, i see.
23:48:43 <elliott> so I'd like to be able to say (syntax made up on the spot)
23:48:57 <elliott> struct Maybe A { enum { Nothing, Just } tag; switch (tag) { Nothing: ; Just: A value; } }
23:49:17 <elliott> and then the sorta-dependent-typing is the rest of the structure type depending on the value of the tag.
23:49:44 <elliott> then you could do things like switch on tag, and if it's Just you can access .value safety, but if not you can't access .value (without explicitly marking it as an unsafe access, perhaps)
23:49:58 <elliott> the point is that this generalises to other stuff
23:50:04 <elliott> where it's not as simple as just one tag value
23:50:12 <elliott> (obviously you can build sugar for the common ADT-y case on top of this)
23:50:15 <Bike> yeah i'm imagining some weird ass "switch"es here
23:50:23 <elliott> the point is that the existence of a tag word in memory is explicitly represented in the language
23:50:35 <elliott> because the idea is not to hide anything about the memory layout
23:50:58 <Bike> hm, well, doesn't that possibly inhibit optimizations that work by eliding the tag word when possible?
23:51:34 <elliott> I'd say it more enables you to make optimisations by not having a tag word in the first place
23:51:40 <elliott> or packing the tag word as bits in another part etc.
23:51:49 <elliott> and e.g. avoiding casing on the tag for data shared between all variants of a struct
23:51:58 <elliott> more broadly, optimisations that change in-memory layout aren't appropriate for something like an OS
23:52:28 <elliott> (though I think this language would also apply nicely to game development and similar things, with the GC-less nature)
23:52:48 <Bike> i was thinking of i dunno, \x -> let fn = ... in case x of Nothing -> foo; Just _ -> fn x where it can obviously be seen that fn will always get a Just
23:53:20 <Bike> but yeah i can see why you wouldn't want that in an OS
23:53:28 <elliott> though an example that isn't a bad idea would help (since what is fn Nothing going to be? you could just pass the value inside the Just)
23:53:45 <Bike> off the top of my head and i'm bad at programming, sorry~
23:53:50 <elliott> but also I don't think compilers generally do this kind of optimisation in practice, so losing it doesn't seem like such a big deal
23:56:32 <elliott> kmc: Rust does something similar with forcing you to case to use things safely, right?
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23:58:13 <kmc> I didn't read this whole convo
23:58:45 <elliott> uh I don't know. isn't there a thing where you can't access fields of an object in Rust before you check a tag or something
23:58:51 <elliott> I don't know how to describe what I am thinking of
23:58:59 <kmc> that sounds like pattern matching
23:59:05 <kmc> and you are required to check all cases
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00:00:00 <elliott> well... yeah but... never mind
00:01:08 <doesthiswork> elliot: that is the first line on a new page at codu.org
00:06:34 <mnoqy> wow what a coincidence; that's the first thing you've said since joining
00:06:49 <Bike> doesthiswork is the bringer of the new day.
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00:30:16 <Bike> in C, can you have declarations after statements?
00:32:22 <Jafet> `run echo $'main() { int x; x = 3; int y; return x + y; }\n' > a.c && gcc a.c
00:32:27 <kmc> in C99, not in C89 or Ye Olde C
00:33:23 <Bike> thinking about kernel's "add to environments whenever" thing and how much i hate it
00:33:27 <kmc> (some compilers may allow it without explicitly enabling C99, just as they allow //-comments)
00:33:36 <kmc> Bike: fun fact: you can't put a goto label on a declaration
00:33:51 <Bike> i mean, dealing with "int x; x = 3; eval("int y = 4"); return x + y;" would just... ugh
00:34:01 <kmc> `run echo $'main() { foo: int x = 3; goto foo; }\n' > a.c && gcc a.c
00:34:02 <mnoqy> don't you also get into trouble if you skip over declarations or anything of the such
00:34:05 <HackEgo> a.c: In function ‘main’: \ a.c:1: error: a label can only be part of a statement and a declaration is not a statement
00:34:11 <kmc> `run echo $'main() { foo:; int x = 3; goto foo; }\n' > a.c && gcc a.c
00:34:17 <Bike> kmc: that's uh, huh.
00:34:20 <kmc> `which gccrun
00:34:30 <kmc> `gccrun foo: int x = 3; goto foo;
00:34:33 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.g9q3g9XU/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.g9q3g9XU/command.c:19: error: a label can only be part of a statement and a declaration is not a statement
00:35:03 <Bike> well not "dealing with" so much as "allowing"
00:35:34 <Jafet> `gccrun if(0) { foo: return puts("!"); } goto foo; return puts("?");
00:36:11 <Bike> that's actually what i expected to happen. god help me.
00:36:55 <Bike> `gccrun if(0) { foo: return puts("!"); } else goto foo; return puts("?");
00:37:17 <mnoqy> goto is real great stuff
00:37:38 <mnoqy> also "unstructured" switch
00:37:52 <mnoqy> as per duff's device & friends
00:38:30 <kmc> `gccrun if (0) { foo: printf("Hello, world!\n"); return 0; }; asm goto("jmp %l0" : : : : foo); __builtin_unreachable(); }
00:38:32 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.FP131YDj/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.FP131YDj/command.c:19: error: expected ‘(’ before ‘goto’ \ /tmp/gccrun.FP131YDj/command.c:19: error: expected identifier or ‘*’ before ‘(’ token \ /tmp/gccrun.FP131YDj/command.c: At top level: \ /tmp/gccrun.FP131YDj/command.c:20: error: expected identifier or
00:38:49 <zzo38> Fall through is pretty useful in a switch case, sometimes.
00:39:47 <Jafet> `gccrun if (0) { foo: printf("Hello, world!\n"); return 0; }; asm("jmp %l0" : : : : &foo); }
00:39:49 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.q8YTzgvD/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.q8YTzgvD/command.c:19: error: expected string literal before ‘:’ token \ /tmp/gccrun.q8YTzgvD/command.c: At top level: \ /tmp/gccrun.q8YTzgvD/command.c:20: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘return’ \ /tmp/gccrun.q8YTzgvD/command.c:21: error: expected identi
00:40:24 <Bike> is it not understanding asm?
00:41:10 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.jHMqVnVF/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.jHMqVnVF/command.c:19: error: ‘version’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ /tmp/gccrun.jHMqVnVF/command.c:19: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once \ /tmp/gccrun.jHMqVnVF/command.c:19: error: for each function it appears in.)
00:41:17 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
00:41:59 <Jafet> `run svn co svn://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/trunk
00:42:01 <HackEgo> bash: svn: command not found
00:43:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fuck: not found
00:43:06 <Bike> so does my earlier eval thing seem reasonable to anybody
00:43:49 <kmc> welp now rustc is dying with just "Aborted"
00:44:48 <kmc> in some kind of infinite recursion
00:50:33 <zzo38> Now I should think of what to advance my Dungeons&Dragons character.
00:50:50 <Jafet> `gccrun asm("jmp *%0" : : "r" (&&foo)); printf("Hi\n"); foo: return !printf("Hello, world!\n");
00:51:52 <Fiora> `gccrun asm volatile("hlt"::);
00:52:04 <Bike> that's the spirit.
00:54:00 <Fiora> `gccrun asm volatile("popcnt %%eax"::);
00:54:02 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.4SBPpiHU/command.c: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/gccrun.4SBPpiHU/command.c:19: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `popcnt'
00:54:08 <Fiora> `gccrun asm volatile("popcnt %%eax, %%eax"::);
00:54:27 <Fiora> `gccrun asm volatile("vpmaddubsw %%ymm0, %%ymm0, %%ymm0"::);
00:54:29 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.zJA471z5/command.c: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/gccrun.zJA471z5/command.c:19: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `vpmaddubsw'
00:54:55 <Fiora> `gccrun asm volatile("tzcnt %%eax, %%eax"::);
00:54:58 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.bO0jCRhE/command.c: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/gccrun.bO0jCRhE/command.c:19: Error: no such instruction: `tzcnt %eax,%eax'
00:56:13 <HackEgo> *asm: \ %{v:-V} %{Qy:} %{!Qn:-Qy} %{n} %{T} %{Ym,*} %{Yd,*} %{Wa,*:%*} %{m32:--32} %{m64:--64} %{!mno-sse2avx:%{mavx:-msse2avx}} %{msse2avx:%{!mavx:-msse2avx}} \ \ *asm_debug: \ %{!g0:%{gstabs*:--gstabs}%{!gstabs*:%{g*:--gdwarf2}}} %{fdebug-prefix-map=*:--debug-prefix-map %*} \ \ *asm_final: \ \ \ *asm_options: \ %{--target-help:%:print-as
00:56:17 <kmc> `gccrun asm("fist");
00:56:19 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.1Vv8dvIW/command.c: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/gccrun.1Vv8dvIW/command.c:19: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `fist'
00:56:48 <kmc> Jafet: ah yes, the good old address of label operator
00:57:09 <kmc> and computed goto, is that goto *expr?
00:57:16 <kmc> computed goto is best goto
00:58:03 <Jafet> `run grep -e flags -e 'model name' /proc/cpuinfo
00:59:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11462
00:59:45 <shachaf> `run gccrun 'int name[12],i;for(i=0;i<3;i++){asm("cpuid":"=a"(name[4*i]),"=b"(name[4*i+1]),"=c"(name[4*i+2]),"=d"(name[4*i+3]):"a"(0x80000002+i));}puts((char*)name);'
00:59:47 <HackEgo> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 6128
00:59:56 <Bike> "Just make a file called CPUID.COM"
01:00:56 <Jafet> You know, I've never actually seen a non-genuine Intel processor
01:01:03 <Jafet> I guess they exist somewhere
01:04:05 <zzo38> Bike: I have done like that, it displays something like "GenuineIntel" or whatever
01:04:16 <Bike> i was quoting you, even.
01:04:44 <zzo38> It won't display the details like "AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 6128", however.
01:05:02 <Bike> what's a good name for an operator that change a variable's value, if "define" and "set" are taken
01:05:16 <Bike> i was gonna go with "alter" but it kinda sucks
01:06:31 <shachaf> well, it depends on what you mean
01:06:42 <Bike> like "x = 4" in C
01:06:49 <Bike> (not x.foo = 4)
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01:15:53 <shachaf> Normally, the problem with a web service is that it is written in standard HTML and PHP, so hackers can exploit vulnerabilities in the code. But our service is written completely in javascript, developed to provide the highest level of security available on the web.
01:16:20 <Bike> That's kind of long as names go, don't you think
01:16:25 <Gregor> That's buzzwordalicious.
01:16:50 <zzo38> If it is client-side JavaScript, then it isn't a proper service, isn't it? (If it is server-side JavaScript, then there can still be vulnerabilities although they are different ones. Also, HTML is client-side too.)
01:30:51 <oerjan> the copumpkin has returned
01:31:10 <copumpkin> so it has now been replaced and my IRC settings took a while
01:31:14 <Bike> oerjan: wow obvious thanks
01:31:19 <copumpkin> well yes, now it's a nicer computer
01:31:31 <copumpkin> I freaked out thinking I had lost my gpg seckey
01:31:37 <copumpkin> but then I found it on an ancient hard drive
01:32:31 <shachaf> That's why I keep a copy of all my secret keys under the rug.
01:33:08 <pikhq> zzo38: That's because you did 0x0, which is the code to get the CPU vendor out from cpuid.
01:33:21 <oerjan> zzo38: i am pretty sure shachaf quoted that because it was hilariously wrong (and stupid).
01:33:37 <pikhq> 0x80000002-5 are the CPU model name.
01:39:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
01:40:49 <shachaf> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Filboid_Studge,_the_Story_of_a_Mouse_That_Helped
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01:56:06 <kmc> logging in and typing xrandr commands blind \o/
01:57:33 <Bike> "One huge sombre poster depicted the Damned in Hell suffering a new torment from their inability to get at the Filboid Studge which elegant young fiends held in transparent bowls just beyond their reach." amazing.
01:57:38 <elliott> it's somehow appropriate that kmc's myndzi dudes are misaligned
01:57:49 <Bike> why do you say that, < elliott>
01:57:54 <shachaf> kmc: imo log in and type xhost +
01:58:02 <elliott> even mnoqy turned off the "< "
01:58:11 <Bike> fix it so that kmc's myndzi dudes aren't aligned
01:58:15 <shachaf> even shachaf turned off the "< ".
01:58:25 <zzo38> That doesn't necessarily make it broken; there is no guarantee that they would be lined up, actually.
01:58:30 <zzo38> Because they all difference
01:58:35 <mnoqy> i turned it off but i still think it's not worth complaining over
01:58:51 <shachaf> mnoqy: well, you're sensible (the only sensible person in this channel??)
01:59:04 <shachaf> maybe ais523 is sensible but he's not in this channel anymore
01:59:09 <kmc> go back to #sensible
01:59:17 <Bike> the irc protocol should be fixed to specify character widths
01:59:39 <zzo38> On my computer the "|" is just beneath the "l" in "blind" but you shouldn't expect anyone's computer to do anything specific such as that or not that
01:59:51 <zzo38> Bike: I don't think so. I think that isn't necessary
01:59:52 <Jafet> The irc protocol should forbid people from complaining about irc
02:00:18 <kmc> just like the iOS app store!
02:00:20 <shachaf> zzo38: did you get an answer from your brother
02:00:34 <zzo38> shachaf: Answer to what question?
02:00:47 <shachaf> whether he's ever been here
02:00:51 <Jafet> #ifappledesignedirc
02:10:28 <kmc> preordering now
02:13:30 <kmc> dude this motherboard uses "Military Class II" components
02:13:40 <kmc> i can totally blow you up by plugging in an S/PDIF cable
02:14:31 <elliott> missed "up" the first time I read that :/
02:15:45 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/5ba25305b4c70be6a875ebebd82446d5/tumblr_mps7wwOvyv1r7tprao1_500.jpg sorry for bad photo, but
02:16:19 <mnoqy> smudge proof #1 selling scratch protection
02:16:23 <kmc> elliott: it can do that too
02:16:35 <mnoqy> military grade nano-memory technology?? what the heck is this
02:16:43 <Bike> an iphone cover.
02:16:46 <mnoqy> are you sure this isn't some sort of joke
02:17:10 <Bike> i took the photo. It was from Target.
02:17:25 <mnoqy> are you sure it wasn't some sort of joke
02:17:36 <mnoqy> april fools in august
02:17:44 <mnoqy> it could happen to anyone
02:18:14 <kmc> are you sure target isn't some kind of joke
02:18:56 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/5b9a7d8e6b41d9f68495e4676af7098a/tumblr_mpsbna0AlZ1r7tprao1_500.jpg continued
02:19:26 <elliott> kmc: is this like http://www.theonion.com/video/new-wearable-computer-also-sucks-your-dick,33017/
02:19:40 <elliott> Bike: can. can you rotate this for me
02:19:48 <mnoqy> just rotate it in your head
02:19:52 <elliott> I've spent too much of my life rotating my neck to read things.
02:20:00 <elliott> too much of my life not getting Bike to do things for me
02:20:02 <shachaf> elliott: rotate your computer instead hth
02:20:11 <mnoqy> my tech is to be able to read sideways
02:20:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: good tech can i have it
02:20:25 <mnoqy> i guess rotating is easier though huh
02:20:29 <kmc> elliott: yeah like that
02:20:38 <HackEgo> smlist (417): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
02:22:04 <kmc> "Area Man Too Poor To Afford Movers, Too Old To Get Help From His Friends" sometimes the onion is just depressing
02:23:15 <elliott> what laptop should I buy :(
02:23:34 <elliott> it seems like every thinkpad is kind of bad in 2013
02:24:10 <mnoqy> isn't it more fun to think about which laptop is the best than actually having one
02:25:58 <kmc> elliott: I'm really happy with my X1 Carbon, except that the screen just broke :<
02:26:06 <quintopia> that microsoft tablet thing with the keyboard flap
02:26:10 <Gracenotes> I am too stingy to afford movers and too unlikeable to get help from my friends
02:26:11 <shachaf> kmc: oh no :'( what happen
02:26:22 <kmc> dunno I just pushed it a bit and *crack*
02:26:26 <kmc> like no obvious source of damage
02:26:49 <elliott> comex: maybe but probably not
02:27:05 <Gracenotes> ssh uses not-much-knowledge proofs of password ownership, yes?
02:27:11 <elliott> kmc: yeah, I don't think the X1 Carbon really meets my requirements though (my requirements are: I don't know my requirements)
02:27:36 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Or it can use public key crypto.
02:27:40 <mnoqy> elliott: then what are you doing comparing laptops, or uh, i guess you're asking other people to do that for you huh
02:28:01 <mnoqy> but how would you know when's the right time to say "yes"!
02:28:04 <Gracenotes> yeah, in this case I typed a password, wondering how clearly it was sent, assuming a malicious server or something
02:28:05 <elliott> kmc: in particular, (relatively) low RAM, bad graphics (incl. resolution), seemingly very little storage?
02:28:29 <comex> elliott: there's only one laptop with as good resolution as the MBP retina ;)
02:28:34 <elliott> kmc: which like, it's an ultrabook so this is not terribly surprising
02:28:35 <comex> one other laptop, i mean
02:28:51 <elliott> comex: 1080p would be "enough"
02:29:02 <elliott> maybe 1680x1050 would be enough
02:29:14 <elliott> mnoqy: 4-8 gigabytes on the X1 Carbon
02:29:29 <elliott> I would be happier with 12-16 for long-term purchase reasons
02:29:50 <mnoqy> im shocked anyone would ever need a good computer
02:29:55 <mnoqy> what do you plan on doing, gaming??
02:30:03 <mnoqy> hardcore gaming???
02:30:04 <kmc> paging nortti
02:30:42 <kmc> 128 GB is plenty of storage elliott
02:31:33 <kmc> and you can get 256
02:31:45 <elliott> http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-carbon/index.html doesn't list that
02:31:51 <elliott> 256 would "probably" be enough
02:32:07 <elliott> I looked at the T series thinkpads and they're really disappointing
02:32:24 <shachaf> mnoqy: wow i didn't know elliott was hardcore
02:32:31 <elliott> maybe things will be better when haswell comes out
02:32:37 <mnoqy> shachaf: you better believe it
02:32:51 <shachaf> but i'm told you should wait until october or so for haswell laptops
02:34:51 <Fiora> elliott: you could get like, something like what I got! and spend too much money
02:35:21 <elliott> I think I have resigned myself to spending too much money already
02:37:33 <Bike> ok good news i have a story
02:37:48 <Bike> when i was just a wee bike under construction my parents were thinking about what to name me
02:38:05 <Bike> my mom wanted to go with "elliott" but my dad didn't like it
02:38:16 <mnoqy> that's a good story
02:38:24 <Bike> so he got her to get her boss to say "elllliottttt" like the alien in ET every time my mom walked by
02:38:33 <Bike> er, got her boss to*
02:38:39 <mnoqy> that's also a good story
02:38:46 <Bike> and so, i was not named "elliott".
02:38:57 <elliott> instead you were named "Bike"
02:39:18 <Bike> this is just a nom de guerre. my real name is Ike
02:39:21 <mnoqy> but if not elliott, what woulkd you be named?? are there any other names
02:39:39 <Bike> see previous message
02:39:51 <elliott> or is it Ike "Bike" Bicycle
02:39:54 <Gracenotes> bike stories are a non-scarce resource
02:40:46 <Bike> it's Ike "Bike" Sumayang actually
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02:43:57 <Fiora> elliott: geez, it looks like you can get a haswell i7, 765M, 15" 1080p screen, 240GB SSD, and like, 16GB RAM for ~$1300 now though right it's the UK so things probably get 10x worse
02:44:53 <elliott> oh that sounds pretty great (depending on weight and stuff), what model is that?
02:45:21 <Fiora> Sager NP7352 apparently?
02:45:40 <Fiora> (cheaper without the SSD and stuff, I'm just super biased because I have one -_-)
02:45:53 <Fiora> it's 6 pounds, even lighter than mine @_@
02:45:54 <shachaf> elliott also apparently wants it to weigh no more than 1.3kg or something
02:46:29 <Fiora> after spending days looking at laptops that were mostly 4-5kg I felt like I had discovered the garden of eden when I found one that was only about 3
02:46:36 <Bike> elliott is super biased because he weighs no more than 1.3 kg
02:46:45 <elliott> shachaf: I never said that :P
02:46:59 <elliott> Fiora: yeah I have an SSD now and don't plan to buy a computer without one if I can help it
02:47:10 <Fiora> Bike: elliott's like, my size :p
02:47:20 <shachaf> elliott: Well, you said it to me once.
02:47:32 <shachaf> anyway is the clevo w740su really so bad
02:47:39 <shachaf> imo find out so that you can tell me
02:47:51 <elliott> I'm actually a black hole and would prefer a laptop about the size of Jupiter
02:48:16 <elliott> Bike: yes but you have to get used to there not being any ticky noises when you install stuff
02:50:02 <elliott> Fiora: it seems like sager only sell in USD? so I guess it's just a question of how much shipping would cost
02:50:09 <Fiora> ummm let me see if there's any UK resellers
02:50:16 <elliott> or if they'd ship at all I guess
02:50:27 <Fiora> http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo/91510-clevo-guide-v2-0-faq-reseller-info.html
02:50:37 <Fiora> there's UK resellers
02:50:41 <elliott> oh it's also a clevo thingy?
02:50:48 <Fiora> sager is clevo basically <.<
02:50:53 <Fiora> they're two different brands for the same thing
02:50:53 <elliott> the system76 one shachaf linked me was clevo too
02:51:13 <elliott> isn't it more like, clevo sell laptops to people who then brand them?
02:51:23 <Fiora> sager is clevo's gamer/performance brand, I think?
02:51:36 <shachaf> Sager laptops are manufactured by Clevo which are also sold under many other brand names. Sager is the biggest Clevo retailer.
02:51:46 <shachaf> ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sager_Notebook_Computers )
02:52:03 <elliott> I wonder if you can buy things directly from Clevo and save money???? probably you have to buy in bulk or something
02:52:52 <elliott> "5.) Uniqueness ("It Ain't a Dell"): Subjective to personal preference. But having a custom high-end notebook that the masses cannot identify is pretty 1337." this post is adorable
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02:54:00 <elliott> they should let you pay more to not have a numpad
02:54:18 <elliott> uh I wonder what the trackpads are like
02:55:08 <elliott> shachaf: is Nvidia Optimus the thing that gave you a ton of issues on Linux
02:55:36 <shachaf> Maybe it works better for some people and/or with some cards, though.
02:55:41 <kmc> x=1; while [ -n "$x" ]; do x=$(lsmod | grep ^snd_ | awk '{print $1}' | shuf | head -1); sudo rmmod $x; done
02:55:46 <elliott> "The binary Nvidia driver added partial Optimus support May 3, 2013 in the 319.17.[6]" at least there's that
02:55:46 <kmc> shockingly effective
02:55:54 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, I tried that.
02:56:01 <shachaf> But I didn't try very hard.
02:56:17 <shachaf> Only, y'know, a couple of hours or something.
02:59:08 <Fiora> yeah, you might not be able to turn off optimus :/
03:02:36 <Fiora> gosh, the NP7330 looks really good. it's a 13" 1080p laptop with like, better specs than mine, and it's just 4.6 pounds
03:05:04 <lambdabot> http://www.evi.com/q/convert_4.6_lbs_to_kg
03:05:04 <lambdabot> Title: convert 4.6 lbs to kg - Evi
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03:21:54 <kmc> https://twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/364852927170494464 'Found in code: /* v/=radix uses less CPU clocks than v=v/radix does */ If this is ACTUALLY true, slap your compiler silly'
03:22:29 <kmc> Bike: which local slang
03:22:46 <zzo38> kmc: Is v a floating point?
03:23:42 <zzo38> I don't know what v and radix even are here, or what compiler you are using, or what computer it is.
03:24:11 <kmc> i've never heard that
03:26:15 <Bike> kmc: yeah that's why i said "more globally" but a friend told me, and urbandictionary backed him up, so i assume /womebody/ uses it
03:26:25 <elliott> kmc: does LVM work well with GPT and stuff
03:26:29 <elliott> I don't really know anything about this
03:26:40 <elliott> but you installed Debian with full-disk encryption on a new computer recently right
03:26:57 <Bike> i cannot believe how girly 0xabad1dea's profile is
03:35:26 <Bike> if Cons is a 2-ary type constructor (* -> * -> * i guess), could ConsList (like []) be defined as fix (\self t -> Cons t self)
03:37:38 <Bike> data Cons a b = Cons a b or whatever
03:37:48 <shachaf> Bike: There's no place for Nil there.
03:37:55 <elliott> [a] = mu (\self -> Maybe (a, self))
03:38:12 <shachaf> So you'd get a stream, not a list (and you'd want a greatest fixed point, but, like, whatever).
03:38:12 <elliott> (it's least vs. upper bound stuff)
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03:38:20 <Bike> right ok elliott fixed it.
03:38:44 <shachaf> Hmm. I need to come up with a better way of phrasing that.
03:38:55 <elliott> Bike: basically you define a list of A as the least fixed point of F(L) = 1 + A * L
03:39:03 <elliott> + translates to Either, 1 translates to (), * translates to (,)
03:39:14 <elliott> so Either () (a, l) which is Maybe (a, l)
03:39:20 <elliott> and then you can work backwards to what I said
03:39:23 <Bike> so like is this doable in haskell (or some type theory that is simple i gues)
03:39:35 <elliott> newtype Fix f = Fix { break :: f (Fix f) }
03:39:38 <Bike> i mean y'all talk about mu but i'm pretty sure it's crazy bullshit?
03:39:43 <elliott> type List a = Fix (ListF a)
03:39:48 <shachaf> You can make Fix like elliott wrote.
03:39:55 <elliott> newtype ListF a l = ListF { listless :: Maybe (a, l) }
03:39:58 <shachaf> You can also make Mu and Nu but in practice there isn't much point in Haskell.
03:40:07 <shachaf> (Mu and Nu correspond to folds and unfolds.)
03:40:14 <elliott> you can also make a bunch of functor combinator things so you could say
03:40:27 <elliott> type List a = Fix (One :+: (An a :*: Arg))
03:40:32 <elliott> if you don't like having to define ListF
03:41:18 <elliott> type One = An (); newtype An r a = An r {- this is Const -}; newtype (f :+: g) a = L (f a) | R (g a)
03:41:26 <elliott> newtype (f :*: g) a = f a :*: g a
03:42:02 <elliott> cons x xs = Fix (R (An x :*: xs))
03:42:16 <elliott> this kind of thing is where the "algebraic" in "algebraic data types" comes from
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03:43:47 <kmc> elliott: I don't remember clearly enough
03:43:54 <Bike_> I don't think I understand Const.
03:43:58 <kmc> Debian installer will configure FDE by itself
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03:44:08 <elliott> Bike: did you miss the stuff I said
03:44:09 <Sgeo> I don't understand thisContext
03:44:12 <Bike> and i had a vague idea of algebra but wasn't sure how it worked with fixpoints
03:44:13 <elliott> I mean, the stuff unrelated to Const
03:44:25 <Bike> elliott: whenever i discon i check the log becaue otherwise it would be kind of unfair to people talking to me
03:44:29 <elliott> newtype Const r a = Const r
03:44:35 <elliott> do you not see how it's a Functor? just trying to see what the problem is
03:44:41 <elliott> fmap :: (a -> b) -> Const r a -> Const r b
03:44:49 <elliott> (Const r x) is equivalent to r for any x, so this is just
03:44:52 <Bike> i think i just
03:44:53 <elliott> fmap :: (a -> b) -> r -> r
03:44:56 <elliott> with a constructor in the way
03:45:00 <Bike> don't even understand the syntax :V
03:45:16 <elliott> uh is it newtype you don't know about, or
03:45:23 <Bike> i think it's newtype yes
03:45:26 <kmc> #esoteric-in-depth
03:45:29 <elliott> okay pretend it says data instead of newtype
03:45:33 <Bike> i remember it being a type alias or something but i have no idea what that means
03:45:35 <elliott> it's exactly the same for our purposes
03:46:03 <elliott> (it's more efficient at runtime for a type that just wraps another one (i.e. one constructor, one field) and has some dumb edge-cases with undefined/nontermination that you should try not to think about)
03:46:20 * comex wonders why that isn't just done automatically
03:46:28 <elliott> comex: aforementioned edge-cases
03:46:35 <elliott> sometimes you want the indirection
03:46:44 <Bike> so when you have that fmap, it's actually like (a -> b) -> Const r -> Const r but Const r is equivalent to r because well obviously.
03:46:47 <elliott> even (data Foo = Foo !Bar) isn't equivalent to (newtype Foo = Foo Bar)
03:46:57 <shachaf> imo just use a strict language
03:46:58 <elliott> because matching on the latter's Foo is irrefutable, but not the former's
03:47:06 <elliott> Bike: Const r a -> Const r b
03:47:09 <elliott> it takes two type paramters
03:47:14 <elliott> (Const r) is the functor, just like [] is a functor
03:47:28 <Bike> nevermind i get it
03:47:39 <elliott> Bike: sorry, I didn't know whether you were being imprecise or it was part of the confusion
03:47:45 <Bike> i was being imprecise
03:47:50 <elliott> since the parameter is irrelevant but also, like, the point
03:47:58 <Bike> it's the "= Const r" that gets me, "= r" would be more intuitive to me
03:48:05 <Bike> but that doesn't work with data of course
03:48:17 <shachaf> The Const on the right is a constructor, not a type.
03:48:23 <shachaf> I think this is confusing and so does SPJ.
03:48:27 <Bike> anyway let me try to define the fmap.
03:48:28 <elliott> data Const r a = TheThing { value :: r }
03:49:06 <Bike> is it just fmap _ (Const rv) = rv
03:49:22 <Bike> fmap _ (Const rv) = Const rv
03:50:22 <kmc> woah UPS stores do 3D printing now
03:50:25 <kmc> (a few of them)
03:50:58 <shachaf> kmc: to save on shipping costs, right?
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03:52:07 <Bike_> just sitting outside in the cool air, learnin babby's first math and pissing on routers
03:52:41 <comex> i implemented this fancy trigram thing
03:52:57 <comex> but searching the entire archive without it takes 0.17s
03:53:08 <comex> oh well, trigrams are cool
03:53:30 <comex> % time python iwc.py --search-messages '/ais[^5][^2][^3]/'
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03:55:00 <kmc> which math
03:55:15 <kmc> also do you think the piss interferes with the correct functioning of the routers
03:55:19 <kmc> it seems to
03:56:21 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
03:56:27 <Bike> it's possible, slightly possible
03:56:33 <elliott> Bike_: basically the reason we want Const is because the functor argument to our list functor is actually the list
03:56:51 <elliott> so we want to ignore it for the actual value in the list and for the nil case.
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04:03:30 <Bike_> are there any recursive types that can't be rewritten into Mufuckery?
04:03:32 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
04:03:55 <Bike> pretty sure the answer is no but i gotta ask all the dumb quetions
04:04:24 <shachaf> Bike: Well, that depends on what you mean by Mu.
04:04:49 <shachaf> Usually you talk about the fixed point of a (covariant) functor, but Haskell lets you have negative recursion.
04:05:13 <shachaf> Something like data Rec a = Rec (Rec a -> a)
04:05:20 <shachaf> Recursion with something on the left side of a ->
04:06:34 <shachaf> That lets you do all sorts of evil things, and it's usually forbidden in total languages.
04:07:51 <shachaf> In Haskell it still works out to be the same thing with Fix, I think, but you can't use any function that relies on a Functor constraint.
04:12:33 <Bike> i didn't understand any of that and i don't think i'm going to any time soon
04:13:17 <shachaf> Sorry. I should have put it differently.
04:13:28 <kmc> I keep forgetting that you can install xmonad and xdm and firefox and still not install the X server
04:13:47 <shachaf> Do you know what negative/positive positions, or covariant/contravariant functors, are?
04:18:28 <shachaf> Well, covariant (i.e. normal) functors are things that give you fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
04:18:38 <shachaf> Contravariant functors give you contramap :: (a -> b) -> f b -> f a
04:20:06 <shachaf> newtype Op r a = Op (a -> r)
04:21:42 <shachaf> (And e.g. Predicate a = a -> Bool and so on.)
04:22:38 <elliott> I wonder whether unstable is better than testing these days
04:22:49 <elliott> also what happened to the whole rolling-release Debian plan
04:25:18 <Bike> so contramap foo pred = \a -> pred (foo a) and wow i've been told this before haven't i.
04:26:32 <shachaf> Note that Op r (Op r a) is covariant again.
04:32:03 <Bike> Is "arrays of length 4" a dependent type? (or rather the constructor N -> a type like that)
04:33:35 <elliott> the debian unstable faq is good
04:33:36 <elliott> Should I use sid on my server?
04:40:10 <kmc> status: once again drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug
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04:51:51 <Bike> kmc: what's the sh do? randomly kill sound devices until they're all stopped?
04:57:26 <kmc> removes kernel modules yeah
04:57:34 <kmc> cause I can't be bothered to figure out the dependency graph
04:57:40 <kmc> especially when lsmod only shows part of it seemingly
05:00:00 <Bike> :k Forall a. [a]
05:00:01 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended -XRankNTypes or similar flag
05:00:01 <lambdabot> to enable explicit-forall syntax: forall <tvs>. <type>
05:00:10 <Bike> :k forall a. [a]
05:00:11 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended -XRankNTypes or similar flag
05:00:11 <lambdabot> to enable explicit-forall syntax: forall <tvs>. <type>
05:00:14 <kmc> https://medium.com/geek-empire-1/a1ebd2b4a0e5 is a good essay. bruce fucking sterling
05:00:46 <elliott> are laptops still stupid about overcharging batteries these days
05:01:03 <kmc> are u still stupid these days #owned
05:01:31 <Bike> cablegate is disappointing because apparently nobody's actually bothered reading the cables? some of them are pretty interesting!
05:01:47 <kmc> lots of people have read them
05:02:06 <Bike> yes but i don't know any of those people
05:02:12 <kmc> i do, checkmate
05:06:33 <Bike> "Julian has turned out to be a Tim Leary at the NSA’s psychiatric convention. " lol
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05:14:55 <Sgeo> `slist elevatorstuck
05:14:58 <HackEgo> slist elevatorstuck: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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06:04:42 <shachaf> Bike: Not necessarily dependent.
06:05:09 <shachaf> Well, is N a runtime value?
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06:50:54 <zzo38> Is there the compiler C program into Dalvik VM?
06:52:15 <shachaf> Bike: Anyway, the thing I was saying was about fixed points of covariant functors vs. other types.
06:52:27 <shachaf> You run into some strange things with fixed points of other types.
06:55:20 <shachaf> In particular Fix (Op a) is ""weird curry's paradox type""
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07:10:33 <Bike> Fix (Op a) is g = g -> a, sorta? so fix? (which makes everything inhabited or whatever)
07:11:52 <shachaf> Well, it's newtype Rec a = Rec (Rec a -> a)
07:12:37 <shachaf> To the first part, anyway. I'm not sure what the rest means?
07:13:24 <Bike> something about how fix existing means all types have something in them which means everything is true in curry-howard and a type theorist comes around to my house and smashes up my windows
07:14:12 <shachaf> Well, you can use this type to write fix, but I'm not what you have in mind.
07:14:51 <Bike> i'm not what i have in mind either
07:15:08 <elliott> well, _|_ is what corresponds to using Curry's paradox to prove anything.
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07:23:33 <Jafet> You could trick the type theorist into believing that your house is uninhabited.
07:35:27 <kmc> zzo38: I saw a thing to compile C to JVM via MIPS, presumably you could feed that into the Dalvik compiler
07:35:35 <kmc> of course you can also run C code natively on most android devices
07:35:49 <shachaf> i think you have to compile it first
07:36:00 <kmc> or hey compile it with emscripten and then run it in Rhino
07:36:00 <kmc> so many ways
07:36:26 <kmc> it's just boxes and arrows
07:36:33 <olsner> I think native code is only supported on android newer than 1.5
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07:45:03 <zzo38> I have written some C programs and maybe if someone want to work it in Android too, such as the "Aimfiz" Z-machine interpreter, is meant for SDL but maybe someone can port to Android since I think Aimfiz is the least buggy Z-machine interpreter as far as I can see (tell me if you do find a bug).
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08:53:44 <fizzie> There's a generic port for SDL stuff on Android; things like OpenTTD, Ur-Quan Masters and such run on it.
08:55:45 <fizzie> (It does need native code suppot.)
08:58:45 <fizzie> I think the NDK is sufficiently good and supported that people haven't really spent time on turning C to Dalvik bytecode; the few "Dalvik backend for LLVM" projects I can see seem quite dead.
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10:18:56 <nortti> ``I'm The 14-Year-Old Who Wrote The "Jesus Isn't A Dick So Keep Him Out of My Vagina" Sign In Texas And Was Labeled A "Whore" By Strangers Online''
10:19:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `I'm: not found
10:21:23 <zzo38> fizzie: Maybe then it helps, if someone wants to play a Z-machine game on Android using the Aimfiz interpreter engine instead of some other one. With a keyboard you might even work it without a lot of changes, but if you don't have a keyboard then you will need to put an on-screen keyboard, and the "mouse menus" (of Z-code v5) might be helpful too.
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10:23:10 <zzo38> But I have absolutely no idea how the Z-machine version 5 mouse menus are supposed to work; the only things I know is this: There are four menus called the directions menu, inventory menu, frequent verbs menu, and frequent words menu. The extension table contains pointers to tables corresponding to these menus, and there is a bitfield to indicate of the menu has been changed.
10:23:33 <zzo38> The format of these tables is unknown.
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10:34:49 <zzo38> Hello. I don't know "deciode", sorry
10:34:57 <zzo38> What is it you wanted?
10:36:05 <plugnburn> Sorry for da panic... he made a port of MSM implementation to Ruby, then suggested a new operator, then _suddenly_ disappeared when I implemented what he asked for :)
10:36:59 <zzo38> I don't know what to do about that, but you could mention that on the esolang wiki too
10:37:38 <plugnburn> and I did mention it in See Also, that his port is incomplete
10:37:41 <zzo38> I already have that open.
10:38:53 <zzo38> Could you post your implementation on there?
10:39:27 <plugnburn> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MSM#Implementations - both are mine
10:39:46 <plugnburn> https://gist.github.com/plugnburn/6150089- this is the reference one
10:39:55 <plugnburn> https://gist.github.com/plugnburn/6150089
10:43:14 <zzo38> I write down things about dreams I have had and what others have told me. Someone once told me his dream where the doctor asked him if he had ever been to the moon, he answered no, and then the doctor asked him to prove it; the doctor couldn't help him if he could not prove that he has never been to the moon.
10:44:53 <plugnburn> nice :) someone told me Underload is Turing-complete but I can't yet prove MSM is Turing complete by translating its code to Underload. Is there a doctor that can help me? :)
10:45:41 <zzo38> If they are a doctor of esoteric programming, then maybe.
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11:04:11 <katla> JSON or s-expressions? You better brush up both ;-)
11:04:32 <katla> https://twitter.com/ICFPContest2013
11:05:09 <katla> i am traouble with s-expression, guys what comes after left bananna ?
11:10:10 <ion> I’m not sure you can really do anything about that, just accept the feeling of imbalance.
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11:46:28 <fizzie> zzo38: The Android version of SDL includes a built-in onscreen keyboard for keyboardless devices, I believe.
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12:57:36 <boily> good ff23 morning!
12:58:21 <quintopia> i could get a car if there were a driver
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12:59:50 <metasepia> KBOS 071254Z 15005KT 10SM BKN250 21/16 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP221 T02060161
13:00:40 <boily> quintopia: why not enjoy the weather? the nice food courts? the new england accent?
13:00:54 <quintopia> i would enjoy the weather more on the trail, hiking
13:01:08 <quintopia> that is a pleasant high for the day tho
13:03:06 <boily> strangely, for an outdoor activity, it's difficult to go hiking without a car.
13:26:48 <boily> GHAAAAAARGH! I don't have time to read the new Monad Reader issue! but the temptation is strong...
13:26:58 <katla> ill read it for you
13:30:19 <katla> first two articles are old hat and 3rd it too complicated to bother reading
13:33:55 <boily> but I have to feel the old hattery by myself, and the be surrounded by warm and fuzzy complexification!
13:34:35 <boily> there's this need, nay, this gaping hole in my heart that can only be filled by a floating spacesuit stuffed with oranges and apples.
13:48:04 <boily> okay, the first article is meh.
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14:24:06 <metasepia> CYUL 071400Z 14008KT 30SM SCT055 BKN075 BKN240 22/14 A3006 RMK SC4AC2CI1 SLP179 DENSITY ALT 800FT
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15:12:16 <shachaf> What, you're moving to SF?
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15:27:00 <Bike> http://tinysubversions.com/stuff/thisJustIn/
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16:14:11 <zzo38> Do you sometimes have dream where you are a different person and/or a different species?
16:16:11 <boily> my dreams are boring. there's no sound, no people, no movement, and I tend to do nothing in still places.
16:17:45 <Roujo> That sounds kinda boring, yeah
16:20:05 <zzo38> If the Android version of SDL include a on-screen keyboard for keyboardless devices, well, still might it be useful to customize it? Does it include to customize the on-screen keyboard? (For example, to include the Z-machine keys, and other things, like in Aimfiz you use CTRL+T to select the transcript slot and CTRL+L for scrollback, etc, and it can also change depending on context)
16:20:38 <Bike> i don't actually type letters on my android phone, i use the swipey thing
16:21:00 <Bike> which i think would work fine for an adventure game...
16:21:22 <Roujo> Swipe, swipe, swipe the monsters
16:21:31 <Roujo> Swiftly out of the screeeeeeeen
16:22:31 <zzo38> Still, you might need functions keys, and sometimes it is single-key input and sometimes full-line input, sometimes timed, and there are some control functions in Aimfiz too...
16:23:53 <Bike> you could have virtual buttons, like all the game machine emulators
16:24:43 <zzo38> Probably customizing the on-screen keyboard to have those functions would help it; if you have a physical keyboard with all the necessary keys then you don't need those
16:24:59 <Bike> why's it have to be part of the keyboard?
16:25:46 <zzo38> I suppose, so that you can hide it together with the rest of the keyboard, and so that if you have a physical keyboard then you can use that instead.
16:27:01 <zzo38> At least, that is what I would think it would be.
16:27:08 <zzo38> Do you think it would be otherwise?
16:27:16 <nooodl> i'd go crazy trying to play interactive fiction games on my phone
16:28:37 <zzo38> I might, too (I don't have a cell phone; I make computer stuff on computer instead), but some people would like to be able to play this game on a Android phone/tablet.
16:29:30 <zzo38> I think there are already some Z-machine interpreters for such device but they are buggy software and you might want to port the Aimfiz interpreter engine which seems to be more accurate.
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16:36:53 <fizzie> Current version of the 'postgresql' metapackage (it depends on the supported PostgreSQL version, currently 9.1) in debian-unstable: "9.3+142really9.1+146".
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16:43:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know, but I'm sure it's some sort of versioning mishap combined with "can't make version numbers smaller" thing.
16:43:35 <Deewiant> apt doesn't have anything like an epoch?
16:44:52 <shachaf> We only give the most basic definitions of categories, functors, and natural transformations. For a gentler introduction, with more details and examples, see e.g. Mac Lane [29].
16:45:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: It does; that'd be something like 1:9.1+146, which, admittedly, would look nicer.
16:46:04 <fizzie> (If there's no colon, the epoch is zero.)
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16:46:48 <fizzie> Maybe they're planning to make 9.3 the supported version in unstable/testing anyway soon-enough, and didn't want to bump up the epoch. Who knows.
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16:47:45 <Deewiant> They just want their mistake to be forgotten instead of being forever encoded as the epoch.
16:49:01 <zzo38> Could they put a feature of temporary epoch?
16:49:04 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, they'd avoid an epoch if it was just to work around a temporary bug.
16:49:25 <Gregor> zzo38: The epochs are just a string property of version numbers, there's no meaning to "temporaryness" of them.
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17:11:52 <zzo38> Gregor: I meant if they would add such a feature to the package manager, so that there is also another kind of temporary epoch as well.
17:19:02 <Gregor> But what does "temporary" mean? You don't want for it to be temporary in time, because a version which is numerically lower should FOREVER be newer than a version which is numerically higher, but also older than a different version which is numerically higher.
17:20:48 <fizzie> "Unable to start X session --- no '~/.xsession' file, no '~/.Xsession' file, no session managers, no window managers, and no terminal emulators found; aborting." Such a desperate-sounding error.
17:21:03 <zzo38> Well, you would have to specify what version it overrides; sometimes a version overrides another one, such as if a new version is made up but you need an old version to override it, or for another reason; an explicit "override" section might do.
17:24:49 <Gregor> But then you need all relevant versions (the global ordering) to create a local ordering, or you need for the version to specify EVERY version it overrides, which could include versions by third parties or not in the repo. e.g. 9.3+142really9.1+146 presumably also overrides 9.2+whatever, but it didn't need to specify that because 9.3+142 is numerically greater than 9.2+whatever.
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17:42:57 <fizzie> Bleh, this thing has the thing where altgr-space generates U+00a0 (a non-break space), and I keep typing it after every | because | here comes from altgr-[the key with <, > and |] and then it's all "bash: $'\302\240less': command not found".
17:43:57 <Deewiant> Where "the thing" = xkb_symbols configuration.
17:45:35 <boily> fizzie: finnish keyboard layout?
17:47:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: Do you happen to know if I can easily setxkbmap it dead? (I've been trying out a life without a desktop environment lately.)
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17:48:09 <katla> im excited about icfp
17:48:25 <katla> i really want to see what the goal is
17:48:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't know about "easily" but you can make a copy of the symbols file and make the change and setxkbmap | xkbcomp that
17:49:33 <fizzie> I guess I'll do something like that.
17:49:39 <ion> fizzie: My sincere suggestion: the US International (AltGr dead keys) layout. It’s great.
17:51:34 <boily> we have ready access to freshly made bánh mì near our offices.
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18:06:35 <boily> `quote `relcome sacje
18:06:50 <HackEgo> sacje: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:07:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thank: not found
18:07:16 <sacje> oh well, worth a shot
18:07:33 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
18:07:50 <ion> `hi HackEgo
18:07:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hi: not found
18:09:55 <ion> `run sed -re 's/\<Thanks,/Hi/; s/\<Th\>/H/; s/\<T\>/H/' <bin/thanks >bin/hi && chmod +x bin/hi && cat bin/hi
18:09:59 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Hi $_. "; if (/[aeiouy]/) { s/^[^aeiouy]*/H/; } else { s/^./H/; } print "$_.";
18:10:08 <ion> `hi HackEgo
18:11:23 <shachaf> ion: You should make bin/þanks
18:11:42 <ion> shachaf: no u
18:13:55 <Bike> `hi carcinogens
18:13:56 <HackEgo> Hi carcinogens. Harcinogens.
18:14:31 <ion> `run sed -i -re 's/aeiouy/aeiouyAEIOUY/g' bin/thanks bin/hi && cat bin/thanks
18:14:34 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
18:14:47 <ion> The i flag would have worked, too, but whatever.
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18:18:46 <katla> im too excited about icfp
18:18:52 <elliott> ion: it should support vowels in other languages
18:18:53 <HackEgo> cat: icfp: No such file or directory
18:18:59 <katla> as soon as i find out what its about ill stop carig
18:19:31 <Gregor> Hm, the new IOCCC sizing tool counts keywords as 1 character.
18:19:36 <Gregor> So there's no benefit to #defining them away.
18:19:39 <Roujo> `cat /dev/urandom > dog
18:19:39 <boily> katla: go look at some Java. it will help you feel better.
18:19:40 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/urandom > dog: No such file or directory
18:19:41 <ion> elliott: Yeah. Too bad there’s no “vowel” character class. I guess we could use Unidecode and then match against its result.
18:20:18 <HackEgo> 884) <hagb4rd> what is this set? sounds like shakespear <fizzie> Yes, that's what people often say about Chrono Trigger.
18:20:27 <Roujo> Well, that was surprising
18:20:43 <HackEgo> 105) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing \ 113) <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly th
18:21:38 <HackEgo> 756) <Phantom_Hoover> i once had a dream when i was told to look after some kittens but they were made of chocolate and i ate them :(
18:21:54 <HackEgo> 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django
18:22:12 <boily> `quote `quote `quote
18:22:26 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
18:22:35 <HackEgo> 407) <NihilistDandy> The Russian's emblem was the hammer and sickle, not the fist and other fist
18:22:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
18:22:57 <HackEgo> 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
18:23:11 <Bike> wow confusin imo
18:23:34 <Bike> `cat bin/karma
18:23:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(lib/karma "$1") karma."
18:23:37 <Bike> is what you meant, probably
18:23:55 <Bike> wait, why is it in lib.
18:24:01 <Roujo> Well, there seems to be a karma, erm, thing in the root?
18:24:09 <Bike> `cat lib/karma
18:24:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '<[^]]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
18:24:24 <Bike> wow i love how horrible everything about these things are
18:24:56 <Gregor> Presumably the file in the root is just there by mistake.
18:27:52 <elliott> I forgot how cute lib/karma is
18:28:42 <metasepia> Karma in Indian religions is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect.
18:29:29 <Gregor> Duck Karma is gained by being gentle with your corkscrew penis.
18:31:02 <Bike> `pastelog kmc.*essay
18:31:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15627
18:32:25 <katla> elliot pls play that shit game again
18:32:26 <Roujo> I thought that was a conversation
18:32:34 <Roujo> I was like "NOTHING FOLLOWS"
18:32:40 <Roujo> "WHY DON'T I UNDERSTAND"
18:33:39 <elliott> katla: I'm traumatised by it
18:33:44 <elliott> have to forget about it before I can play again
18:33:48 <Bike> yeah but it's been like weeks
18:33:55 <Bike> you forgot about it for sure.
18:34:06 <Bike> why would i ever play it?
18:35:33 <Gregor> What the boink are we talking about...
18:35:44 <elliott> Dot Action 2, greatest game in the universe
18:35:52 <elliott> http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact2/
18:36:55 <boily> ah no. no no no no no no. that thing is still alive?
18:38:36 <Bike> as long as there is evil in the hearts of humanity, it will live
18:41:12 <Roujo> That floor is electrified or something
18:41:38 <elliott> it's lava. anyone who tells you it isn't lava is a cretin
18:42:15 <elliott> and the grey stuff is water
18:42:57 <Roujo> After getting elec^H^H^H^Hburnt to a crisp
18:43:03 <Lumpio-> It says so in the instructions.
18:43:22 * Bike notes "Lumpio- is a cretin" in his notes
18:43:30 <elliott> it is unreasonable to expect him to understand his own game. dot action 2 is bigger than any of us
18:46:11 <Lumpio-> I like the FM music though
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18:58:37 <BleuetBleu> LimeJaune: j'aurais bien voulu avoir pris CitronVert, mais il semblerait qu'un autre tarlan que moi en soit l'utilisateur courant.
18:59:54 <zzo38> I do not understand it in French very well.
19:01:19 <shachaf> LimeJaune: Hey, all he did was ask a question! That's not nice.
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19:03:09 <shachaf> Roujo: Who are you, anyway? Whence do you know oerjan?
19:05:53 <Bike> @pl a b c = map ((flip d) c) b
19:05:56 <lambdabot> a = id (fix (const (flip (map . flip d))))
19:05:57 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
19:06:15 <Bike> looks sensible
19:06:44 <lambdabot> a = id (fix (const (flip (map . flip d))))
19:06:45 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
19:06:48 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, did I mention @pl?
19:07:11 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~$ pointfree 'a b c = map ((flip d) c) b'
19:07:11 <zzo38> Why did it put "id" at the front?
19:07:40 <zzo38> shachaf: That is better.
19:07:52 <olsner> shachaf: elliott probably knows about @pl already
19:08:07 <shachaf> Yes, but we were talking about what recently broke in lambdabot.
19:08:24 <shachaf> zzo38: @pl initially compiles Haskell code using a very direct process to a point-free form and then optimizes it by e.g. eliminating "id".
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19:08:47 <zzo38> Why does it make like that though? It didn't eliminate "id", and it did other things too.
19:09:10 <shachaf> It's broken right now. I don't know why.
19:11:12 <katla> @pl f x = id (id x)
19:11:21 <olsner> you don't know? that's not very helpful
19:12:32 <shachaf> olsner: i never said it was helpful hth
19:13:06 -!- BleuetBleu has changed nick to boily.
19:13:27 <Roujo> What does hth mean?
19:14:23 <olsner> I usually read it as happy to help
19:15:01 <olsner> (because I think that goes better with completely unhelpful statements)
19:15:06 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
19:19:22 <olsner> (it's bad for your teehth)
19:19:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dice: not found
19:21:04 <zzo38> FurryScript also includes dice function, including such feature as drop-lowest and glitch. If you have PHP then maybe you can even install it on the IRC too.
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19:36:24 <boily> shachaf: what is the expected value of a Xd(YdZ) throw?
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19:40:30 <boily> augur: oh hai! while you're there, would you kindly answer to the The Question, namely what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh? as a bonus, you'll even surpass Bike as the first Glorious Entry in my file.
19:42:04 <Gregor> What a creepy thing to ask a person.
19:42:29 <Gregor> Sounds like the kind of questions one asks on Grindr.
19:43:18 <metasepia> Grindr is a geosocial networking application geared towards gay, bisexual, and bi-curious men.
19:43:58 <boily> oh. uhm. in my capacity as a Certified Canadian, I truthfully attest that I'm not creepy.
19:44:24 <shachaf> boily: For 1d(1dX) it should be (X+2)/3 or something like that?
19:44:48 <boily> Gregor: I can also bribe you with a box of timbits.
19:45:03 <Gregor> I don't know what timbits are...
19:45:09 <Gregor> Unless they're bits of people named Tim.
19:45:33 <Fiora> boily really, really ~really~ needs to know the centroid of esoteric
19:45:36 <Gregor> Which just places you in the snuff version of Grindr.
19:46:43 <boily> Gregor: timbits are donut holes from tim hortons. a traditional Canadian delicacy (that is actually edible, contrary to salmiakki).
19:47:02 <elliott> Fiora: once he finds it he's going to get there whatever it takes and set up his base.
19:47:21 <elliott> it will be powered by the magnetic force of all the esoteric around it
19:47:21 <boily> shachaf: no idea about the dice dice throw. I suck at probs. and stats., so that's why I asked you the question.
19:47:38 <shachaf> Well, that's why I gave you a nonsense answer.
19:47:59 * boily duck tapes elliott to mute him. “Hush! Don't reveal my plans!”
19:49:25 <Fiora> or he's trying to like
19:49:34 <Fiora> play subset-sum with our weights
19:49:43 <Fiora> "find a group of #esoteric members whose weights sum to 350kg"
19:50:05 <Gregor> I live in Indiana and weigh 15 tons.
19:50:24 <Gregor> shachaf: It was an internship.
19:50:45 <Fiora> gregor are you a tractor trailer
19:51:08 <Gregor> Fiora: I'm an American and I'm just BIG BONED.
19:51:23 <Fiora> gregor has neutronium bones
19:54:35 <shachaf> boily: So the expected value of 1d(1dX) is actually (X+3)/4, I guess.
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19:59:21 <HackEgo> eitow: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:59:40 <boily> Fiora: subset-summing #esoteric sounds like an interesting idea.
20:03:57 <boily> shachaf: I'm the kind of person to just wing this kind of problem into matlab/octave and brute force through multiple tries.
20:04:07 <boily> (I guess there's a reason I became an engineer)
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20:26:33 <Bike> Is there a fixed point of scheme eval that isn't a constant or self-referencing?
20:27:42 <fizzie> Is there a way to make PulseAudio do this thing I want it to do?
20:27:53 <Bike> what is this thing?
20:29:50 <kmc> "die in a fire"
20:30:07 <Bike> i guess bottom, if you count that
20:30:17 <fizzie> I have an USB soundcard where the volume control's dB levels (as seen by the ALSA driver) bear no resemblance to reality; in particular, it's completely muted up to a point, and then uncomfortably loud after that. It used to be so that I could just keep the card's mixer control fixed to that just-about-audible-and-loud, and compensate by lowering the per-app volumes (dynamic range is for ...
20:30:21 <shachaf> Bike: it's ""different"" in a strict language
20:30:24 <fizzie> ... wimps), but apparently modern Pulse merges the volume controls with a super-clever mechanism, where it takes the required adjustment and applies it... well, just read http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/User/PulseAudioStoleMyVolumes/
20:30:27 <Bike> shachaf: yeah i know
20:31:13 <fizzie> It says that I can disable the cleverness by a "control=" parameter to module-alsa-sink, but I haven't figured out any sensible way to apply that, esp. automagically to a single device that comes and goes.
20:31:43 <fizzie> (And anyway I don't know if it would accept a "none" setting that'd make it not touch the wonky hardware volume control but just approximate with software.)
20:31:55 <kmc> pulse audio ate my balls
20:32:11 <fizzie> Maybe I should just go with JACK, but that's so "pro".
20:33:01 <fizzie> Also I don't have a real sound card. And all the JACK stuff is so Qt.
20:33:34 <fizzie> (Apparently the "standard" way to do persistent per-application setups in JACK is with QjackCtl Patchbay.)
20:33:35 <Bike> have you considered replacing your sound software with piping everything to /dev/snd
20:33:47 <Bike> patchbay is pretty nice, actually.
20:33:50 <elliott> shachaf: _|_ is a fixed point of all functions in a strict language
20:34:15 <nooodl> Bike: there probably isn't one, if you don't count bottom
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20:34:50 <elliott> I'm not sure how Bike defines constant
20:35:01 <elliott> I might define constant as "something that evaluates to itself", which makes Bike's statement trivial
20:35:07 <elliott> anyway, you can write quines
20:35:13 <nooodl> anything that's "self-evaluating?"
20:35:15 <Bike> i meant not a cons or symbol.
20:35:28 <elliott> ((lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))))
20:35:59 <shachaf> > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
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20:36:34 <Bike> dumb question bike
20:36:45 <nooodl> > ap(++)show"ap(++)show"
20:37:00 <kmc> don't be mean to Bike
20:37:25 <kmc> i didn't think of quines either
20:38:14 <shachaf> that's the definition of a quine, isn't it
20:38:21 <shachaf> hmm i guess «5» is a quine
20:38:44 <nooodl> (quote (quote (quote (quote ...)))) is cooler anyway
20:41:06 -!- clog has joined.
20:41:39 <kmc> `relcome clog
20:41:41 <HackEgo> clog: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:42:19 <kmc> ««lambda «x» «list x «list 'quote x»»» '«lambda «x» «list x «list 'quote x»»»»
20:43:47 <Bike> i thought of kiforget's theorem but forgot how to relevantly apply it
20:43:51 <boily> or, you could always use sha- and -chaf. htnqh.
20:44:13 <Bike> nooodl: oh that i was thinking about the other day actually
20:44:27 <Bike> rather, how different combinatory calculi would work with infinite strings
20:44:52 <Bike> ski of kkkkkkk... is itself, but with sss... i'm not sure, besides that the first letter is still s
20:45:12 <Bike> ````... is just bupkis, i dunno
20:45:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```...: not found
20:47:22 <Bike> i ran it for a little while and then got bored
20:48:00 <Bike> kleen. why did i think it was klein? blugh
20:49:12 <nooodl> ¿¿lambda ¿x? ¿list x ¿list 'quote x??? '¿lambda ¿x? ¿list x ¿list 'quote x????
20:49:49 <shachaf> > filter (\x -> generalCategory x == InitialQuote) ['\0'..]
20:49:50 <lambdabot> "\171\8216\8219\8220\8223\8249\11778\11780\11785\11788\11804\11808"
20:49:53 <shachaf> > text $ filter (\x -> generalCategory x == InitialQuote) ['\0'..]
20:50:06 <shachaf> that does not look quite right.........................
20:50:08 <kmc> ~fffffffffffffffff
20:50:09 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:50:16 <kmc> ~metar KSFO
20:50:16 <metasepia> KSFO 071956Z 23010G14KT 10SM FEW015 BKN022 19/11 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01940111
20:50:35 <Bike> nooodl: finally, a lisp with sensible beautiful syntax
20:50:47 <kmc> you mean javascript?
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20:51:54 <Bike> kmc: it's just not a lisp if it doesn't have arbitrary criteria for inclusion, man
20:52:52 <kmc> inclusion-exclusion
20:53:21 <kmc> > logBase 2 $ length ['\0'..]
20:53:22 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
20:53:32 <kmc> > logBase 2 . fromIntegral $ length ['\0'..]
20:57:12 <nooodl> > reverse $ unfoldr (\x -> if x == 0 then Nothing else Just (mod x 2, div x 2)) (length ['\0'..])
20:57:13 <lambdabot> [1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
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20:58:05 <kmc> shachaf: you could fit 3 codepoints in a 64-bit word with enough bits left over to tag it as not a pointer
20:58:06 <shachaf> > binary # length ['\0'..]
20:58:14 <Bike> utf-lg(1114112), computable reals are the future
20:58:26 <shachaf> kmc: I ported "text" to that encoding once.
20:58:32 <shachaf> (Well, not the pointer tagging bit.)
20:59:00 <kmc> but UTF-21?
20:59:12 <nooodl> (#)??? is it just ($) or am i missing something
20:59:13 <augur> boily: if i give you that information, you can teleport me away, so no thank you :|
20:59:13 <shachaf> UCS-2.625 or whatever you might call it.
20:59:15 <kmc> how did it do...
20:59:23 <shachaf> I didn't port everything but a lot of it.
20:59:41 <shachaf> kmc: There are various disadvantages, like not being able to (++) two strings with memcpy.
20:59:49 <shachaf> (Unless you're lucky and the alignment matches.)
21:00:45 <Bike> :t showIntAtBase
21:01:01 <elliott> remember when I added all the bases up to 16 but edwardk made me take them out :(
21:01:09 <nooodl> i'm going to murder everyone involved in lens hth
21:01:19 <shachaf> nooodl: Numeric.Lens is ion's fault hth
21:01:26 <elliott> why is :t even more broken
21:01:29 <nooodl> (this solves the problem where i'm too lazy to learn about lens)
21:02:07 <Bike> wow this is a shitty bot.
21:03:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:05:17 <Bike> the haunted value. unknowable. untypeable
21:05:41 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Profunctor.Choice p0)
21:06:01 <elliott> I think the problem is the type is too long
21:06:04 <shachaf> Hmm, haven't we had that before?
21:06:04 <oerjan> ok so lens is so freaky it breaks :t ?
21:06:05 <elliott> :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
21:06:06 <lambdabot> a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i -> j -> k -> l -> m -> n -> o -> p -> q -> r -> s -> t -> u -> v -> w -> x -> y -> z -> t28 -> t29 -> t30 -> t31 -> t32 -> t33 -> t34 -> t35 -> t36 -> t37 ->
21:06:06 <lambdabot> t38 -> t39 -> t40 -> t41 -> t42 -> (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z, t28, t29, t30, t31, t32, t33, t34, t35, t36, t37, t38, t39, t40, t41, t42)
21:06:08 <shachaf> I remember a type like that.
21:06:13 <elliott> :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
21:06:14 <lambdabot> Workaround: use nested tuples or define a data type
21:06:31 <Bike> the perfect number, imo.
21:07:52 <ion> It’s a nice number in base-63.
21:07:53 <oerjan> the tuple types are defined explicitly in a module, istr a comment that something broke if they tried to expand it one step more.
21:09:03 <shachaf> long long long is too long for gcc
21:11:09 <olsner> sounds weird that a tuple breaks at that size but a data type of the same size is supposed to be ok (according to the error message's workaround)
21:11:47 <oerjan> grmbl changing Data-Tuple to GHC-Tuple in the platform doc url doesn't lead to the source
21:12:50 <shachaf> oerjan: that's becuase it's in ghc-prim hth
21:14:01 <oerjan> shachaf: that's really no excuse for making it hard to find the real source of something
21:14:05 <shachaf> oerjan: https://github.com/ghc/packages-ghc-prim/blob/master/GHC/Tuple.hs hth
21:14:12 <shachaf> {- Manuel says: Including one more declaration gives a segmentation fault.
21:15:17 <oerjan> that sounds like what i recall
21:15:22 <ion> From now on, all comments i add to any code will begin with “ion says:”
21:15:26 <Bike> why does it say it's "Experimental"
21:15:39 <elliott> tuples aren't ready for the prime time, Bike
21:15:58 <olsner> ion: I'll make my comments "shachaf says: ... hth"
21:16:04 <Bike> i mean it says copyriht 2001 and then that it's experimental
21:16:15 <oerjan> Bike: presumably that you cannot rely on the API not changing at any time?
21:16:19 <shachaf> ion: that only works for simon
21:16:20 <olsner> it's a long-running experiment
21:16:31 <Bike> wow this s some really awesome code
21:17:09 <boily> augur: but, but... please *kitten-like eyes with glitter and sparkles and tears*
21:17:12 <oerjan> shachaf: ...now i'm imaging ghc source full of "simon says:"
21:17:34 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
21:17:37 <shachaf> oerjan: then i have succeeded hth
21:17:54 <Bike> oerjan: but the api is just, like. tuples
21:18:00 <augur> boily: who are you even :|
21:18:13 <ion> > length "(,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
21:18:20 <boily> augur: some random canadian, with a small collectiön of coördinates and weighs.
21:18:38 <Fiora> he's trying to stalk everyone :<
21:18:39 <ion> You accidentally the ẗ
21:18:42 <shachaf> boily: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18249218/?i=6&from=/18271693/related
21:18:58 <shachaf> boily: just look at the <title>
21:19:03 <boily> ion: I usually ¨ the #̈.
21:19:04 <shachaf> imo relevant to this channel
21:19:20 <Bike> i considered bringing up lipid polymorphism here yesterday
21:19:22 <Bike> but then i didn't
21:19:28 <shachaf> <title>RGS2 C1114G polymorphism and body weigh - PubMed Mobile</title>
21:21:06 <ion> Real Fast Nora’s RGS2 C1114G polymorphism and body weight gain download
21:21:34 <boily> Fiora: and no, I'm not a stalker. even if my SO says so, I'm not a stalker.
21:22:53 <ion> shachaf: thanks hand
21:26:14 <shachaf> boily: What's *my* body weigh?
21:26:38 <ion> yo momma so fat they had to adjust G for her
21:27:51 <boily> shachaf: I still have no entry for you rebarbative rapscallion.
21:28:50 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phospholipids_aqueous_solution_structures.svg btw amphiphily
21:29:51 <Bike> ~duck amphiphile
21:29:51 <metasepia> Amphiphile (from the Greek ƹ, amphis: both and ƹ, philia: love, friendship) is a term describing a chemical compound possessing both hydrophilic (water-loving, polar) and lipophilic (fat-loving) properties.
21:30:34 <ion> I thought the Greek alphabet looked slightly different.
21:31:08 <boily> ion: you didn't see nothing unusual there. it's only an optical illusion caused by disturbances in the ionosphere.
21:31:30 * boily does hypnotic handwaves towards ion
21:32:28 <Bike> ~duck amphiphile
21:32:29 <metasepia> Amphiphile (from the Greek ƹ, amphis: both and ƹ, philia: love, friendship) is a term describing a chemical compound possessing both hydrophilic (water-loving, polar) and lipophilic (fat-loving) properties.
21:32:44 <Bike> weird lookin reekg
21:36:09 <boily> the reekg is fine, I say!
21:37:06 <oerjan> Bike: i smell double utf-8 encoding
21:39:26 <oerjan> `run echo ±¼Æ¹Â | iconv -f utf-8 -t latin1
21:40:18 -!- |_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:41:51 <oerjan> `run echo ±¼Æ¹Â | iconv -f utf-8 -t latin1 | iconv -f latin7 -t utf-8
21:41:57 <boily> it's like a monad. you can return, you can join, but you can't get away from it.
21:42:11 <nortti> still remember draLinux? I actually did it http://norttimc.dy.fi/~nortti/dralinux/
21:42:17 -!- |_ has joined.
21:43:10 <fungot> 194 177 194 188 195 134 194 185 195 130
21:43:25 <boily> sounds like an iso-8859-some-random-number problem.
21:43:41 <boily> ~eval map ord "±¼Æ¹Â"
21:43:44 <boily> ~eval map ord "±¼Æ¹Â"
21:43:51 <elliott> also is this website hosted on your dumpster computer. is that why it isn't loading
21:44:40 <oerjan> funny thing, 177 is ± in latin7 as well...
21:45:17 <nortti> also, it should load, just slowly
21:46:22 <elliott> the miracle of dumpster computers
21:47:04 <oerjan> `run echo α¼Æ¹Â | iconv -f utf-8 -t latin1
21:48:05 <nortti> actually, most of the problem is caused by the shit router/modem/wifi access point/firewall
21:48:23 <olsner> `run echo α¼Æ¹Â | iconv -f utf-8 -t greek1
21:48:25 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion to `greek1' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
21:49:12 <nortti> 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_req=173 ttl=47 time=12193 ms
21:49:25 <oerjan> olsner: latin7 is supposed to be greek, but looking at the wikipedia table the chars don't fit amphi at all
21:49:33 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
21:49:58 <oerjan> bloody newline-include paste
21:53:28 <fungot> 206 177 206 188 207 134 206 185 207 130
21:54:23 <oerjan> ok whatever encoding it is happens to use the same as what follows 206 in utf-8 when that fits
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21:56:32 <oerjan> also, the original ~duck is just the first sentence from the wikipedia article.
21:58:54 <oerjan> > [ord c `mod` 256 | c <- "αμφις"]
21:59:32 <boily> oerjan: well, duck duck go sometimes pick stuff from wikipedia, and that gets forwarded to my delicious bot.
22:00:07 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:00:31 <oerjan> boily: i think the problem is with your bot. you are not giving utf-8 output but instead printing unicode characters modulo 256.
22:01:08 <oerjan> which i think used to be the ghc default at one point
22:01:12 <boily> I... uhm... may be having some Char8 problems...
22:01:33 <boily> it was compiler with 7.4 many myriaseconds ago.
22:02:28 <oerjan> that should be after the ghc IO change. although Char8 would also do this. i think using Text instead of ByteString.Char8 may be recommended?
22:02:51 <boily> indeed. my imports from ByteString are Char8y.
22:03:03 * oerjan has never done anything sophisticated enough to bother going beyond String himself.
22:03:05 <boily> should have known better...
22:03:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:34 <oerjan> although there's the problem that irc input is not required to be utf-8 either.
22:06:00 <oerjan> and sometimes people are using latin1 / cp1252
22:06:20 <oerjan> (the latter is somewhat recommended fallback when input is not utf-8
22:06:48 <boily> what do you know, there's a NYer article on the Majestic̈ Diæresis̈: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2012/04/the-curse-of-the-diaeresis.html
22:07:27 <boily> cp1252 is mean, nasty, and will swap your toothpaste tubes for cherry-flavoured ones.
22:10:45 <oerjan> "She said that once, in the elevator, he told her he was on the verge of changing that style and would be sending out a memo soon. And then he died."
22:13:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:15:20 <metasepia> verge definition: a rod or staff carried as an emblem of authority or symbol of office.
22:16:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Keëper of the Authöritarian Stäff of the Endlëss Diæ̈resis).
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22:17:49 <oerjan> i think boily messed up the last one hth
22:18:31 <ion> in what way? hand
22:23:03 <olsner> messed it all the way up from hand to hand
22:24:00 <olsner> fungot: in what way hand ?
22:24:00 <fungot> olsner: they say that naturally a wand of polymorph.
22:25:58 <oerjan> @tell Bike sssssss... = ss(ss)sss... = ss(sss)ss... = ss(ssss)s... = ss(sssss)... something tells me this doesn't converge.
22:26:46 <oerjan> ion: clearly he didn't mean to use "Diæ̈resis" hth
22:26:56 <elliott> oerjan: ssssss... = ss(sssssss...)?
22:28:49 <ion> oerjan: True, he should have used æ̷̈
22:28:59 <oerjan> elliott: now describe the topology in which that converges twh
22:29:37 <elliott> oerjan: no, clearly we just need to figure out a fixed point of SS :)
22:31:50 <elliott> SSy = \z. Sz(yz) = \z a. Sz(yz)a = \z a. za(yza)
22:32:14 <elliott> so need an x such that x = \y z. yz(xyz)
22:35:13 <shachaf> That sounds like one of Smullyan's puzzles.
22:35:43 <elliott> that is, \y z. xyz = \y z. yz(xyz)
22:35:50 <elliott> that is, xyz = yz(xyz) for all y and z
22:36:17 <elliott> that looks easy enough to do with a fixed point combinator.
22:36:50 <elliott> x_solution = fix (\r y z -> y z r)
22:36:51 <shachaf> ...I just lost my Chromium tabs...
22:37:13 <shachaf> You know how it crashes and you get that button to Restore your old session?
22:37:38 <fizzie> Should've used a Mozilla product hth
22:38:29 <shachaf> Mozilla products seem to handle it worse in my experience.
22:39:34 <shachaf> This was two windows full of tabs which I have no idea how to find again.
22:39:36 <kmc> Servo handles this much better imo
22:39:52 <kmc> 1) no tabs 2) often crashes before you get the chance to create state that would be lost
22:40:12 <kmc> 3) always crashes on exit
22:40:26 <ion> shachaf: Look at your latest backup.
22:41:11 <elliott> kmc: (1) sounds good for my browsing habits
22:41:30 <ion> (I have sometimes restored Firefox session.js or whatsitsname from my backups.)
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23:00:32 <kmc> error: cannot infer an appropriate lifetime due to conflicting requirements
23:00:42 <kmc> that's fairly poëtic as compiler errors go
23:02:38 <shachaf> kmc: are lifetimes ever uninferrable?
23:02:59 <kmc> apparently
23:03:01 <Fiora> that almost sounds like an ~ATH error
23:03:13 <kmc> but yeah there are lots of places where you're expected to write explicit lifetime variables
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23:03:21 <kmc> what`s ~ATH?
23:03:30 <Fiora> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/~ATH
23:04:49 <Fiora> built around performing actions based on lifetimes of objects :3
23:06:37 <kmc> .........................
23:10:20 <Fiora> did did I do something wrong
23:22:10 <shachaf> Fiora: (p. sure you didn't do anything wrong)
23:22:57 <ion> rip / hand depending on the what the “death” wave function collapses to.
23:23:31 -!- nooodl^ has joined.
23:23:44 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v kmc.
23:24:39 * ion unhands shachaf, hth
23:25:44 <Bike> i described servo as something that was seemed real cool todday
23:26:01 <Bike> also "i'd use it if it wasn't basically a pile of rocks right now", you can put that on the back
23:26:05 <shachaf> Bike: did you know the axiom of choice is equivalent to "every surjective function has a right inverse"
23:26:20 <Bike> oerjan: sure if you're a coward
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23:26:44 <elliott> shachaf: http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html
23:27:21 <Bike> shachaf: makes sense
23:27:32 <shachaf> elliott: i like the data: url
23:28:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:28:10 <ion> We could replace all URLs with data: ones and soon we wouldn’t need web servers at all anymore!
23:28:42 -!- conehead has joined.
23:29:43 <shachaf> elliott: he should fix his font imo. it's impossible to see the colons
23:30:03 <ion> My font displays them just fine.
23:31:43 <ion> I like the mailto:%72%2e%6f%63%6f%6e%6e%6f%72%40%63%73%2e%72%75%2e%6e%6c, because no spammer spider would ever be able to decode that.
23:31:48 <shachaf> elliott: the link at the bottom is broken :'(
23:32:21 <kmc> status: not dead, not drinking scotch out of a MongoDB mug
23:32:30 <ion> i.e. drugz
23:32:34 <kmc> I was just stupified by ~ATH
23:32:36 <kmc> in a good way
23:32:44 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v kmc.
23:33:01 <elliott> my official ruling is that Fiora killed kmc but MongoDB scotch revived him
23:33:37 <ion> elliott: I’m p. sure drugz were also related to the case. hth, hand
23:33:41 <kmc> i said *not*
23:34:23 <elliott> being not dead doesn't imply you never were dead
23:35:07 <Bike> check_this_shit_out
23:35:20 <shachaf> kmc: next time you die call me and i can hugz you back to life hth
23:37:51 <shachaf> is "simplicial complex" really a thing :'(
23:38:01 <Fiora> kmc: you liked it...?
23:38:31 <Bike> isn't it "simplicial" like a simplex
23:39:56 <kmc> i found it confusing in a pleasing way
23:40:07 <kmc> like this channel but more so
23:40:56 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> i found it confusing in a pleasing way <+kmc> like this channel but more so
23:41:00 <HackEgo> 1083) <+kmc> i found it confusing in a pleasing way <+kmc> like this channel but more so
23:43:53 <Fiora> kmc: http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Programming_languages okay, have more punny programming language names then
23:44:09 <Fiora> DIS* (disaster risk / dis asterisk)
23:48:36 <Bike> http://blog.chembark.com/2013/08/06/a-disturbing-note-in-a-recent-si-file/ "whoops"
23:50:16 <Fiora> #overlyhonestmethods? <.<
23:50:40 <yorick> ah, that reminds me of my high school years :D
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23:52:15 <Bike> #overlyhonestcompletefraud
23:52:48 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/hashmap.rs#L768-L770 ꙮ_ꙮ
23:53:16 <oerjan> <Bike> oerjan: sure if you're a coward <-- wat
23:53:50 <Bike> «She claimed that a company named “Duha Chemisches Katalyse-Labor” (a.k.a. “Duha”) successfully reproduced her work. An official at the company named Ralf Decter sent Columbia an electronic message to verify Sezen’s claim. The problem…the IP address of the computer that sent the message traced to the University of Heidelberg (where Sezen was studying in 2006)» reading about fraud is great
23:54:07 <shachaf> oerjan: is it a thing about ss(ssss......ssss)sss?
23:55:09 <kmc> madrigal electromotive
23:57:35 <Bike> "Sezen claimed that purchase requisitions did not exist for many of her combustion analyses because she obtained them in free trials."
23:57:45 <shachaf> λ> (unsafeCoerce (-5 :: Int8) :: Word8)
23:57:50 <shachaf> That wasn't what I'd hoped for.
23:58:46 <yorick> shachaf: what were you expecting?
00:00:02 <shachaf> Yes, "Word" is like "Int" except unsigned.
00:00:18 <yorick> oh, I didn't know that. in that case, weird.
00:00:50 <ion> λ> unsafeCoerce (256 :: Word16) :: Word8
00:01:34 <ion> It’s almost as if unsafeCoerce is somehow unsafe.
00:01:42 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVoI3hB4IiM the way everything is recorded now is really weird O_o
00:02:03 <elliott> is it using the wrong instance dictionary or something?
00:03:17 <shachaf> ion: That one is a bit less surprising.
00:03:21 <Fiora> Bike: @_@ are those like, compressed gas canisters?
00:03:28 <ion> shachaf: I see what you did there.
00:03:44 <Bike> Fiora: tagged 'lab safety'
00:04:01 <elliott> Bike: there's a thing where russian cars all have recorders in them for insurance stuff or something?
00:04:09 <yorick> Bike: it's nice how it's going "oooeeeoooeoeo" while everything is blowing up
00:04:14 <elliott> at least that's what I keep hearing when people ask why there are so many videos of russian traffic accidents
00:04:22 <yorick> elliott: I think it's called dashcam and yes that is the case
00:04:35 <shachaf> elliott: is that "insurance" by the youtube mafia
00:04:53 <Bike> yorick: personally i like how the second half of the video is the driver backing up their car as far as they can
00:05:07 <kmc> oh god russian dashcams
00:05:07 <yorick> Bike: while the actual gas tanker is parking in front of it :P
00:05:11 <kmc> you know why this is a thing?
00:05:20 -!- |_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:05:25 <kmc> yeah, insurance fraud / scams
00:05:33 <ion> elliott: There are claims i haven’t verified that you don’t get insurance moneyz if you didn’t get a police officer to make a report about the accident, and which participant’s bribe is greater determines the content of the report if you don’t have evidence.
00:05:43 <Bike> elliott: stop drop and DANCE
00:06:07 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkIZR-CE3iY summary of the last half of the video
00:06:15 <Bike> this is now my second favorite russian crash video
00:06:34 <Bike> the favorite being the one where the truck falls over, releasing a bunch of cows, which stand up and moo at everything and wander around
00:07:03 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CNR2bAh3Y
00:07:19 -!- |_ has joined.
00:07:49 <yorick> Bike: it's weird how they're all pretty much fine
00:07:55 <yorick> I mean they slide across the road quite a bit
00:08:07 <Bike> well they are cows.
00:08:36 <Bike> it's hard to hurt a cow. they're really quite solid.
00:09:06 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:09:16 <ion> They’re partially gas, though.
00:09:28 -!- madbr has joined.
00:09:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: is it a thing about ss(ssss......ssss)sss? <-- how should i know
00:10:27 <elliott> I like how the cows only seem bothered for a second
00:10:32 <elliott> and then they're just like welp time to start walking
00:10:36 <madbr> hmm, I think I figured out how to do a cpu that does 1 opcode per cycle but has complex opcodes like add d2, [a0 + d0]
00:11:23 <madbr> (provided you have at least an instruction cache, even a really simple one like the 68020's 256 byte cache)
00:12:27 <madbr> separate address registers from data registers like on the 68000, and have address calculations use address registers only, or optionally an address register plus d0 (first data register)
00:12:43 <madbr> or possibly a choice of d0 or d1
00:12:50 <kmc> Bike: holy fuck
00:13:18 <Bike> don't fuck with cows man
00:13:27 <kmc> i learned that the hard way
00:13:32 <Bike> used to be that every year or so the neighbors' cows would get out and wander all over my neighborhood
00:13:38 <Bike> i got memories man. memories. bad memories
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00:22:44 <shachaf> "It can be argued that the term ‘categorification’ should be reserved for vertical categorification, since we can use ‘oidification’ for the horizontal concept."
00:24:40 <kmc> categorifornication
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00:27:10 <augur> where is that from
00:28:13 <madbr> it's the first time in my life that I've seen the term "oidification"
00:29:08 <shachaf> madbr: It's what you do when you go from "group" to "groupoid". h
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00:35:57 <oerjan> which one of these is the monoid -> monad thing
00:36:35 <elliott> they should be called cats, and categories should be called catoids.
00:36:40 <madbr> shachaf : what happens when your categories are not really vertical or horizontal?
00:36:50 <elliott> alternatively mons, and categories would be monoids
00:37:06 <Bike> what's the etymology of "monoid" again
00:38:03 <oerjan> Bike: the mon is jamaican hth
00:38:36 <ion> and the oi is british hth hand
00:48:52 <elliott> Bike: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/156952/why-the-terminology-monoid
00:50:22 <Bike> `pastelogs 156952
00:50:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
00:51:00 <Bike> `pastelogs (156952)
00:51:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14019
00:51:54 <Bike> knew i'd seen it before
00:52:37 <Bike> http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/thats-not-plagiarism-its-an-administrative-error/ retractionwatch is so ridic
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01:38:36 <Fiora> Bike: http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/category/by-author/diederik-stapel/ oh gosh, they always use th same picture
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01:43:27 <Fiora> 18:38 < Fiora> Bike:
01:43:28 <Fiora> http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/category/by-author/diederik-stapel/ oh gosh, they always use th same picture
01:44:01 <Bike_> well this is the guy who nearly got his phd taken away, which is apparently a thing that can be conceived of
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01:45:07 <Fiora> gosh it's like he's smirking at me
01:46:57 <Bike> http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/4/819 evopsych is one hell of a drug
02:06:46 <Bike> http://bogost.com/blog/oauth_of_fealty.shtml one of the more colorful "fuck your api" posts i've seen
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02:31:21 <kmc> rocking the eee pc 900 crapbook
02:32:04 <kmc> the kbd is small enuf that i can hold the sides and type with my thumbs
02:32:57 <Bike> hey is anyone in #python
02:33:23 <Bike> or is it logged somewhere
02:34:24 <kmc> nobody is in #python
02:34:29 <kmc> python does not exist
02:34:37 <kmc> you imagined it during one of your episodes
02:34:44 <kmc> but also, why?
02:35:18 <Bike> because i'm curious if someone is spamming #python in the same way they're doing in #lisp
02:35:55 <elliott> also I just bit my tongue aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
02:35:56 <kmc> what are they spamming
02:36:00 <kmc> elliott: D:
02:36:21 <elliott> not even on a manageable spot like the front or something it's right at the back to the side ow ow ow
02:36:27 <Bike> it's not funny or anything, they just came in and linked their super cool new web thing nobody cares about, and claimed it was in lisp when somebody pointed out this was dumb
02:36:43 <Bike> said it's based on the implementation from the 80s when pressed
02:36:45 <Bike> what, to the thing?
02:37:04 <Bike> wow am i like second-order spamming here.
02:37:08 <Bike> http://www.leapfm.com/
02:37:36 <elliott> looks like the hacker news software
02:37:47 <Bike> yeah weird right
02:37:48 <Bike> " Sure, I chose CMUCL because it works well with cloud development and various unix systems that I work with. Has a good native code compiler but most importantly it's freely redistributable with full source code"
02:37:52 <elliott> ok but the html source doesn't
02:37:55 <Bike> vaguest description possible
02:37:56 <elliott> so I guess it's not actually Arc
02:39:13 <Bike> i stopped paying attention to arc when graham said about it that he was glad to have finally gotten rid of the "extra parentheses" in cond
02:39:24 <Bike> because that's the most banal thing i can imagine.
02:39:56 <kmc> itt Lisp doesn't have syntax
02:40:03 <kmc> getting rid of those parentheses was a deep semantic change
02:40:20 <Bike> like god CL is a fucking heap but you're not going to fix it if you seriously think that's important
02:40:37 <Bike> basically imagine me saying "imo uuuuuuugh" for two minutes straight.
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02:45:30 <Bike_> i tried to print some medical records
02:45:38 <Bike_> and an #esoteric log came out? is coming out
02:45:50 <elliott> we'er you're family now, Bike_
02:47:25 <Bike_> oh god they're still coming
02:47:33 <kmc> https://twitter.com/zanu_pf/status/363977016086765568 stupid future
02:47:37 <Bike_> what the FUCK did i do
02:47:49 <elliott> we want you to know EVERYTHING, Bike_
02:48:04 <elliott> ten years of #esoteric. they're all yours now
02:48:09 <Bike_> oh man i got a vintage MEANWHILE IN R/BITCOIN here
02:48:30 <elliott> kmc: marriage between people who want babies, like, to collect them. baby enthusiasts
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02:49:00 <Bike> why the fuck is this happening.
02:49:21 <elliott> what I like now is that you have to shred them
02:49:27 <elliott> because otherwise what if someone finds your printed #esoteric logs
02:49:30 <elliott> how the hell do you explain that??
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02:50:02 <Bike> i think i'll put them in a binder and donate them to the local library
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02:56:00 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:56:43 <doesthiswork> kmc: getting rid of those parenthesis is basically the difference between an alist and a plist
02:56:46 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/26c6ef77e28f105a837df9a3af56d7af/tumblr_mr6ysuGwKn1r7tprao1_1280.jpg
02:56:55 <Bike> i'm seriously, i can't even comprehend what just happened to me
02:57:25 <coppro> you printed out a log?
02:57:58 <elliott> an actual terminal screencap
02:58:13 <Bike> from like, weeks ago though
02:58:30 <coppro> a friend once attempted to print something
02:58:35 <coppro> the printer decided to turn off postscript
02:58:40 <coppro> and just printed the raw source as a text file
02:59:17 <elliott> Bike: did you maybe press a weird key at 17:42 weeks ago
02:59:53 <Bike> the other logs end at different times
03:00:20 <Bike> but uh is there some way i can destroy my print history easily to make it stop
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03:10:13 <kmc> this is some horror movie shit
03:10:38 <kmc> wait until it starts printing logs from the future talking about vaguely specified catastrophe
03:12:43 <elliott> this is horror movie stuff
03:12:48 <Bike> < elliott> wait < elliott> what happened to shachaf < FreeFull> idris........... < elliott> FUCK[log cuts off]
03:13:08 <kmc> <itidus21> I AM BECOME DEATH, THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS
03:13:30 <doesthiswork> actually the conventional translation is time rather than death
03:13:43 <kmc> but not the famous one
03:13:45 <Bike> at the end of the channel is elliott, alone
03:13:49 <Bike> trapped in his matrix of solidity
03:13:51 <Bike> with real dimensions
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03:16:52 <Bike> pi is real. pi is all around us.
03:20:17 <Bike> sorry shachaf i future logged it
03:20:21 <Bike> in the future you're already dead
03:20:43 <shachaf> p. sure this channel has a no future logging policy
03:21:03 <Bike> if it did that would have to be indicated in the topic
03:21:05 <Bike> freenode rules
03:22:22 <CADD> Bike: interesting about pi, it was almost legislated to be a finite fraction at one point.. imagine what would have happened to math if it passed?
03:22:51 <Bike> nothing, because everyone would ignore a dumbassed state law in the same way botanists don't give a fuck what the SCOTUS said tomatos were
03:23:19 <CADD> cant find the reference, but it was something like 237/74
03:24:07 <Bike> > 237/74 :: Float
03:24:30 <CADD> im pretty sure its not exacty that fraction. but it was something close
03:24:46 <Bike> i'm pretty sure that pi is exactly that fraction
03:25:08 <CADD> well, i was just reading the wiki article on pi
03:25:17 <Bike> this reminds me that i don't actually have an intuitive idea of why pi is irrational
03:25:23 <CADD> newton came up with an infinite sum of fractions that approaches pi
03:25:40 <CADD> im pretty sure the wiki article could shed some light on that
03:26:23 <madbr> irrationals are crazy
03:26:38 <madbr> transcentenals even more so
03:26:44 <Bike> oh, you were serious
03:26:54 <CADD> i didnt even see that as a pun
03:26:57 <CADD> nice catch Bike
03:27:57 <madbr> between every two numbers there's an infinity of transcendentals that are uncalculatable
03:28:19 <CADD> surreal numbers are amazing
03:28:20 <madbr> even if you could do any infinite series or solve anything
03:28:23 <Bike> Between any two reals there is an infinite number of rationals.
03:28:54 <madbr> bike: yes but that's a countable infinite
03:29:32 <madbr> even the infinitesimals are infinitely small compared to the reals
03:30:41 <madbr> most numbers you will never ever be able to reach
03:31:28 <Bike> Can you think of an uncomputable number that isn't the limit of a sequence of computable numbers?
03:33:24 <madbr> bike: has to exist
03:33:40 <madbr> sequences of computable numbers are countable
03:34:17 <doesthiswork> fiora: wouldn't any busy beaver be just as uncomputable any other?
03:34:19 <madbr> so numbers that you can reach by sequence are only an infinitely small part of the reals
03:34:28 <Fiora> doesthiswork: BB(4) is computed, though, I think?
03:34:57 <Fiora> like, the halting problem only says "some programs can't be proven to halt", not "all programs can't be proven to halt"
03:35:03 <shachaf> can Bike think of a number that even he could not compute?
03:35:12 <Bike> I meant an example.
03:35:25 <Fiora> and like, the small busy beaver ones are pretty easy or something
03:35:41 <Bike> It's pretty easy to construct a computable sequence that has a busy beaver number as its limit.
03:35:58 <Bike> also they're all, like. natural numbers.
03:36:42 <Fiora> but what if BB(1000) is uncomputable?
03:36:52 <Fiora> like, if you don't know what it is, howcould you converge to it?
03:37:12 <Bike> Dovetail running every relevant Turing machine
03:37:15 <doesthiswork> bike: smallest number that is part of a nonterminating collatz sequence
03:37:36 <Bike> What makes you think that?
03:37:58 <Fiora> but like.... dovetailing turing machines can only find you a lower bound, right?
03:38:15 <Bike> A sequence of lower bounds.
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03:38:59 <Fiora> that makes sense... I guess...
03:39:11 <doesthiswork> untill you have proved that every one of those machines that hasn't halted, will not halt it isn't computed
03:39:24 <Bike> I asked for a sequence.
03:39:56 <Bike> I asked for a number not the limit of a sequence.
03:39:58 <madbr> a number that can't be reached through sequence
03:40:00 <elliott> Fiora: but taking you the limit gets you a perfect lower bound
03:40:05 <elliott> since the lower bounds are constantly improving
03:40:25 <elliott> I bet Bike would explain it better.
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03:40:38 <madbr> not sure I can think of any
03:41:50 <doesthiswork> busy beaver is pretty much the prototype of uncomputable
03:41:51 <madbr> infinite sums are out ofc, same for solutions to anything (since you can infinite-newton-raphson it)
03:42:00 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specker_sequence Another nonexample.
03:42:30 <madbr> (though maybe a solution to something discontinuous and nonconverging)
03:43:38 <Fiora> Bike: wow, that's an evil sequence
03:44:17 <Bike> It also means the computable reals aren't compact, so, that kinda blows.
03:45:27 <madbr> bike: woa this is remarkably hard
03:46:03 <Bike> How about another question: An uncomputable function that is continuous.
03:46:46 <coppro> Bike: take the busy beaver function, connect the dots
03:46:51 <madbr> maybe just the fourier transform of an uncomputable series
03:47:26 <coppro> incidentally, the best proof I've been taught in a class was
03:47:35 <coppro> "Proof. Draw the graph on sufficiently fine grid paper."
03:48:09 <doesthiswork> any 3 points make a straight line give a wide enough pen
03:48:17 <Bike> How about differentiable?
03:49:34 <coppro> doesthiswork: this was a serious proof
03:49:42 <coppro> I'll let you puzzle over what theorem
03:50:55 <doesthiswork> coppro: yes, I can imagine things that would be proven by that
04:20:57 <shachaf> "We write α ∶ F ≅ G, if α is a natural isomorphism. As an example, the identity is a natural isomorphism of type F ≅ F."
04:37:59 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.0371 So like, searching in constant time.
04:38:01 <Bike> What the fuck?
04:41:23 <Bike> Not that i understand what "nonlinear quantum model" means here in a nontrivial way, but
04:41:31 <lifthrasiir> Bike: and it's not the constant time, it's rather like O(n^(1/4)).
04:42:11 <Bike> i read that but wikipedia summarized it as "constant" so i dunno
04:42:42 <lifthrasiir> it is a long known fact that the quantum computer can do unstructured searching in sublinear time (Grover's algorithm, O(n^(1/2))) so it is not that crazy one
04:43:12 <Bike> well grover's is also crazy.
04:43:32 <madbr> they figured how to make some part of it constant
04:44:02 <madbr> but some other part has grown in requirements so the overall growth is O(n^(1/4))
04:44:02 <lifthrasiir> it seems that Grover's algorithm is the optimal one of that kind though
04:44:12 <madbr> that's what I can read from what they're saying
04:44:45 <lifthrasiir> (the optimality of the number of unitary operators U_\omega?)
04:45:01 <lifthrasiir> the number of applications of unitary operator*
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04:45:50 <Bike> lifthrasiir: yeah grover's is the fastest "linear"
04:46:02 <Bike> again i have no real idea what this means
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05:09:43 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you find that you check super mega less now that it has a regular update schedule
05:10:23 <mnoqy> i actually probably check it the same amount
05:10:34 <mnoqy> what if it updates out of schedule! what then
05:10:41 <mnoqy> i have to be on top of things like this
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05:12:16 <shachaf> mnoqy: JohnnySmash wouldn't do that would he
05:12:33 <mnoqy> but what if he did...........
05:13:11 <mnoqy> what if someone held johnnysmash at gunpoint to make comics on wednesdays too without telling anyone about it
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05:13:31 <shachaf> hang on that could actually happen
05:13:37 <shachaf> maybe i better check on wednesdays too
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05:14:02 <Bike> I assume johnnysmash is an intelligence agent, and Super Mega is coded messages.
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05:22:10 <oklopol> "<Bike> Can you think of an uncomputable number that isn't the limit of a sequence of computable numbers?" even the rationals (which are computable) are dense among reals, so there are no such numbers
05:23:30 <oklopol> "<Fiora> BB(1000)?" BB(1000) is a computable number, as it is an integer. this particular representation of it might be impossible to evaluate, but that is irrelevant.
05:24:16 <Bike> take all my fun why doncha
05:24:30 <madbr> oklopol : "dense" ?
05:25:08 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_set doot
05:25:55 <comex> so just pack BB(n) in order into a real
05:25:57 <Bike> Since any real has a rational of any distance you want by it.
05:26:48 <Bike> So for any real we can construct a sequence etc etc converges to etc etc etc and so on etc
05:27:09 <madbr> which means that... yeah if you can get an approximation
05:27:29 <Bike> computables are also dense, so, bla bla analogy etc left as an exercise etc bla blatc
05:27:30 <madbr> but that's a contradiction
05:27:59 <madbr> or I might be wrong
05:28:23 <madbr> but I have this intuition that sequences approaching a given limit are countable
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05:28:42 <Bike> That the set of all sequences approaching a given limit is countable
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05:29:39 <madbr> the set of all countable sequences approaching a given limit
05:29:49 <Bike> Because that's not the case. Take any sequence approaching the limit that isn't bla bla, multiply it elementwise by some real, you get another sequence
05:29:51 <madbr> the set of all computable sequences approaching a given limit sorry
05:30:51 <elliott> nobody said the sequence had to be computable itself, though.
05:31:06 <Bike> admittedly i did intend that, but yeah.
05:32:57 <oklopol> by definition, they usually are
05:33:53 <madbr> because rationals are dense over reals, that meach every real must be reachable by successive iteration
05:34:42 <madbr> except for numbers involving non-computable parts, this means this successive iteration can be defined by a computer program
05:35:02 <madbr> computer programs are countable
05:35:39 <Bike> Computable numbers are countable, yes, but (countably) infinite sequences of members of a countable set are well, not.
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05:36:36 <elliott> my proof: real numbers are iso to digit sequences, then think a lil
05:36:44 <oklopol> why did you say that the specker sequence is a nonexample?
05:37:09 <Bike> Because it's a sequence of computable numbers with an uncomputable limit?
05:37:42 <oklopol> i may have changed your question
05:37:59 <Bike> It wasn't a very good question.
05:39:02 <madbr> are there numbers that can't be computably successively approximated?
05:39:47 <Bike> well like oklopol said there's always a sequence of rationals or computables or whatever the hell.
05:40:14 <Bike> there are like, functions that aren't semicomputable, though? probably
05:40:18 <oklopol> if a single program needs to output the sequence though, this is more interesting
05:40:35 <madbr> I reread the specker sequence thing
05:41:19 <madbr> essentially some digits of the maximum of the sequence are uncomputable
05:41:44 <madbr> so the maximum of the sequence can't be successively approximated
05:49:14 <oklopol> if you do specker with a subset X of naturals, and you have a program that outputs a sequence of rationals that converges to it, then X is necessarily recursively enumerable, presumably by the proof in the specker article
05:49:57 <oklopol> so if you do specker with a set that is not recursively enumerable, then that number cannot be approximated by a computable sequence of rationals, in a somewhat interesting sense
05:52:00 <madbr> you sorta can't force it to converge
05:52:42 <oklopol> well not sure i get your intuition there
05:53:14 <madbr> well, if you have a rule that you must always converge to at least distance N of the real number
05:53:26 <madbr> with N being divided by 2 on each step
05:53:41 <madbr> then a given step might loop infinitely of course
05:54:24 <oklopol> here, the property of a real a we are interested in is "is there a turing machine that, given n, outputs a rational r_n, such that r_1, r_2, ... converges to a"
05:56:57 <oklopol> okay actually perhaps "is there a turing machine that, given n, outputs a rational r_n, such that r_1, r_2, ... converges to a, and |r_i - a| is decreasing"
05:57:17 <oklopol> because otherwise i don't know if X needs to be r.e.
05:57:49 <madbr> I was thinking of having the difference exponentially decreasing
05:58:30 <oklopol> well isn't the number computable then
05:59:22 <oklopol> i think mine is a weaker notion
06:00:30 <oklopol> there's a lot of literature on this stuff, but i haven't read any of it
06:01:44 <oklopol> actually on second thought i'm not sure even my latter definition works
06:02:07 <oklopol> or is that a third thought
06:03:48 <Bike> on nth thought, for some unknown n
06:07:06 <oklopol> ah okay i think r_i itself needs to be increasing: then you can tell n \in X when the nth digit flips to a 4, so X is r.e.
06:08:39 <elliott> oklopol: the definition I know is just forall m n, |r_m - r_n| <= m + n
06:09:01 <oklopol> are you sure about the m+n?
06:09:08 <oklopol> you know less and less about the numbers?
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06:09:26 <elliott> well I looked it up in the paper I remember reading so as to look slightly less stupid.
06:09:43 <Bike> it's ok elliott, i'm here for you, to look stupidest.
06:09:49 <elliott> ok wait that wasn't the exact paper
06:09:51 <oklopol> elliott: i'm not trying to define computable numbers, i'm trying to define a larger class
06:10:05 <elliott> thanks, now I know I'm talking nonsense
06:10:23 <Bike> The important question is, are these numbers Lyapunov stable
06:10:42 <oklopol> if in yours, you replace m+n by 1/(m+n), then that's computable numbers, since the nth approximation is at most 2/n away from the real
06:11:35 <elliott> For example, I will represent the real numbers (see Definition 9.16 and
06:11:35 <elliott> Definition 11.1) by the type
06:11:36 <elliott> ∃f: Q+ ⇒ Q.∀ε1 ε2.|f(ε1) − f(ε2)| ≤ ε1 + ε2.
06:12:03 <elliott> I guess it's possible that roconnor made the exact same mistake in the definition in both his Ph.D. thesis and this other paper
06:12:15 <Bike> rookie mistake
06:12:33 <oklopol> are those epsilons natural numbers though?
06:12:34 <Bike> wait should i even ask how that's a type
06:12:36 <shachaf> Bike: did someone castle agaain
06:12:46 <elliott> oklopol: oh, I guess they're Q+ there.
06:12:49 <Bike> what's a castle
06:12:55 <oklopol> looking at the type, that seems to work
06:13:10 <oklopol> idea is that given epsilon, f computes an epsilon approximation
06:13:18 <oklopol> for positive rational epsilon
06:13:22 <elliott> Bike: it's (f : Q+ -> Q, prf : forall e1 e2, abs (f e1 - f e2) <= e1 + e2)
06:13:34 <elliott> that ∃ is meant to be an \exists
06:18:48 <madbr> - any real can be reached by the limit of an infinite series or rationals, since rationals are dense over reals
06:18:50 <oklopol> because i'm also wondering how that's a type
06:19:23 <madbr> - however that series can't converger exponentially or else the number would be computable (and thus, countable)
06:20:00 <Bike> i mean it's a type in that it defines a set of stuff but
06:20:31 <elliott> oklopol: http://r6.ca/thesis.rev.fluorine.pdf
06:20:32 <oklopol> it doesn't really define anything though, it's just a true statement about functions :P
06:20:37 <elliott> but I mean it's pretty standard?
06:20:40 <oklopol> but there might be something implicit going on
06:20:43 <elliott> it's a dependent tuple with a function and a proof object
06:20:47 <madbr> - which means that 'most' reals must be approached by a series that you can't determine if it converges or not
06:20:55 <elliott> where the proof object is a dependent function from two Q+s to a proof obejct that blah blah blah.
06:21:16 <madbr> (or at least doesn't converge exponentially)
06:21:48 <oklopol> madbr: the second one is slightly wrong, the series can converge as fast as you like... it's the enumerability by a turing machine that's important
06:22:45 <madbr> so it can't... converge exponentially in an enumerable way
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06:23:37 <oklopol> yes, or otherwise the number is computable (and thus, belongs to the countable set of computable numbers)
06:24:24 <madbr> so either it must converge exponentially in a non computable/enumerable way
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06:25:20 <madbr> or if you force your successive steps to be computable/enumerable, then it can't converge exponentially anymore?
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06:25:31 <oklopol> ah okay if you have an existentially quantified formula, then it's the type of values the existential quantifier can take
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06:27:02 <oklopol> madbr: something like that i guess.
06:28:28 <CADD> sooo... why arent there more people talking about egison?: http://egison.pira.jp/
06:28:35 <elliott> oklopol: well uh, you have to bundle the proof object.
06:28:57 <elliott> a value of the type would look like (f, \e1 e2 -> ...proof of the <=...)
06:29:03 <oklopol> yeah but i consider that part of the logic we're working in
06:29:04 <elliott> given appropriate constructors for <= or whatever on Q.
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06:29:30 <elliott> but it isn't really like that in type theory, which is the point of the thesis.
06:29:41 <elliott> like, proofs of (m <= n) aren't necessarily unique depending on how you define <=.
06:29:47 <elliott> so the proof term can be relevant.
06:30:08 <Bike> Algorithms are expressed intuitively and will be auto-parallelized with Egison!!
06:32:05 <oklopol> oklotalk-- did pattern matching of objects without normals forms too
06:32:24 <oklopol> Egison is the world's first programming language that makes pattern-matching with unfree data types practical.
06:32:40 <oklopol> okay perhaps that's different
06:32:43 <Bike> so, we can conclude that oklotalk-- wasn't real and youjust hallucinated
06:33:03 <oklopol> i wonder what's "practical"
06:33:20 <elliott> oklopol: remind me how oklotalk-- was great. I remember it being great
06:33:35 <oklopol> well it was great for example because it mixed static and dynamic scoping
06:33:55 <oklopol> every variable was first checked in the static scope, then the dynamic scope
06:34:42 <oklopol> also pattern matching was pretty advanced
06:34:46 <oklopol> dunno if there was anything else :P
06:35:10 <oklopol> gotta go see a doctor now.
06:35:39 <Bike> advanced and practical
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07:53:43 <Taneb> I can watch Airplane WHENEVER I WANT TO
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08:16:06 <Taneb> In other news, my copy of To Be Or Not To Be: That Is The Adventure has shipped!
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11:22:12 <Taneb> Well, that's the best I've ever done at Brogue
11:24:13 <elliott> are you playing the latest version? it is kind of bad
11:24:16 <elliott> you mightw ant to try the previous one
11:25:35 <Taneb> I think I am playing the latest version
11:25:37 <Taneb> It's a different version to that which I was previously playing
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11:26:03 <elliott> it has a kind of terrible food clock with some serious issues (food basically only ever spawns on certain fixed levels due to some bad design and food is really tight so it's easy to starve because of this)
11:26:08 <elliott> if you do starve maybe roll back a version :p
11:26:15 <Taneb> I haven't been starving
11:26:28 <Taneb> So maybe I am not on that version
11:29:42 <Taneb> Huh, I am on the latest version
11:29:57 <Taneb> Maybe I just suck so much that it hasn't became an issue
11:30:35 <elliott> walk through a door and wait for it to come for you
11:30:44 <elliott> this is like the only way to kill centaurs as a melee character without wanting to kill yourself
11:30:56 <elliott> it's kind of silly that you have to use bad AI in this way but it's so intolerable doing anything else
11:31:00 <Taneb> I had a +11 rapier of multiplicity and it was awesome
11:31:10 <elliott> did you just sink every enchant into it
11:31:24 <Taneb> When I found it it was +4
11:31:54 <Taneb> I would hit something and I'd have an army of floaty blades
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11:41:02 <Jafet> Enchantments go to 11?
11:45:53 <Taneb> At the very least!
11:46:40 <Jafet> That sounds almost as unbalanced as nethack
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11:47:40 <Taneb> Scrolls of enchantments aren't that easy to come across
11:47:53 <fizzie> Enchantments go to +127, presumably.
11:49:51 <nooodl> however this also applies to your to-hit bonus, which is also a signed char, or something, and it'll overflow and you'll have -118 to-hit
11:50:07 <elliott> brogue is roughly infinitely more balanced than nethack
11:50:16 <fizzie> But think of all the sexy foocubi you'll get by showing off your +127 whatever.
11:50:35 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
11:50:39 <fizzie> fungot: Tell me about foocubi.
11:50:39 <fungot> fizzie: tiger: 1. a check of my attire showed no obvious holes or damage. i once saw a hacker named beaver. weak and ailing, they have eight legs and filling his lungs with air.
11:50:40 <Jafet> You cannot enchant meat sticks
11:50:42 <elliott> I have a +127 whatever, if you know what I etc. etc. etc.
11:50:55 <fizzie> fungot: That doesn't sound terribly sexy.
11:50:55 <fungot> fizzie: pyrolisk: at first. he appreciated the priceless wine that much that he is not surprisingly, are large, elephantlike mammal of the damned to hell.
11:51:01 <Roujo> I should try nethack sometime
11:51:08 * Roujo dodges the dirty looks
11:51:25 <Roujo> Anything I should know?
11:51:33 <Roujo> Before I download it and start?
11:51:48 <fizzie> Play it on one of the servers instead, they're fancy.
11:51:53 <Roujo> And die horribly from a goblin with a wand of death or some other stuff?
11:52:07 <Roujo> Nethack... servers?
11:52:07 <Jafet> Play a game that has been developed in the last decade
11:52:15 <fizzie> You get your embarrassing deaths typically announced on an IRC channel.
11:52:40 <Taneb> Doesn't nethack have like 1000 ways to die or something
11:52:51 <nooodl> Roujo: `telnet nethack.alt.org`
11:53:10 <fizzie> Taneb: NAO's "top types of death" list has 16697 unique entries.
11:53:17 <nooodl> Taneb: killed by a goblin called A, killed by a goblin called B, killed by a goblin called...
11:54:15 <fizzie> Taneb: Granted, it's probably kind of a Zipfian distribution. But even the rank-1000 entry ("killed by a fire ant, while frozen by a monster's gaze") has happened 55 times, so it's not quite unique.
11:54:29 <Taneb> I think I'll stick with Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Red Rescue Team
11:54:33 <Jafet> http://alt.org/nethack/player-endings.php?player=DeathRobin
11:54:37 <fizzie> Entries 6048..16697 all have a count of 1, though.
11:55:01 <Jafet> Hmm, there have been 101 trickeries.
11:55:28 <fizzie> "killed by a gnome lord called 104" thanks, saiph.
11:55:34 <Roujo> Jafet: Well, the goal here is to actually play nethack, so playing something else instead doesn't quite fit the bill =P
11:55:43 <Roujo> nooodl: Alright, I'll telnet there.
11:55:48 <Roujo> I'll telnet SO HARD
11:55:59 <fizzie> There's quite a few entries where people have been frustrated.
11:56:03 <nooodl> Roujo: if you really wanna play nethack maybe play acehack instead
11:56:06 <fizzie> E.g. "killed by a pony called KILL ME I FAIL AT ILLITERACY".
11:56:13 <nooodl> nethack without the terrible terrible ui
11:56:18 <Roujo> That might be nice
11:56:24 <Taneb> "Was killed by an Oddish using Tackle while paralyzed"
11:56:29 <Roujo> I tried to play DF without a graphics pack
11:56:31 <fizzie> Or "killed by a rock troll called OH FUCK YOU TROLL SERIOUSLY".
11:56:34 <Roujo> Didn't really work out
11:56:39 <Taneb> Roujo, I've never played DF with a graphics pack
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11:56:52 <Roujo> Taneb: Then you are a greater person than I am
11:57:03 <Taneb> Nah, I'm just lazy and stubborn
11:57:14 <Roujo> There's the Lazy Newb Pack for that =P
11:57:15 * nooodl wants to make an ascii pokemon roguelike based on actual pokedex data
11:57:43 <Taneb> nooodl, with the whole Alakazam has an IQ of over 3000 crap?
11:57:47 <nooodl> that'd be rad. it'd be like mystery dungeon except not rguhhghggg and with more stuff i guess
11:57:55 <Taneb> Roujo, well it's too late now, I'm not a newb
11:57:56 <nooodl> oh no, i just mean, accurate movesets etc.
11:58:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/eGWP NetHack players have dirty mouths.
11:58:15 <Taneb> So, basing it on one of the main series games?
11:58:39 <nooodl> elliott: 9877 1 0.000 killed by a djinni called Where's my fucking wish?
11:59:26 <fizzie> "housecat called Kitty with a huge gaping jaw the size of a fucking hallway" has killed two people, I see.
11:59:33 <nooodl> Roujo: well acehack still has the text graphics
11:59:43 <nooodl> they're not as 100% insane as dwarf fortress's though
11:59:58 <Jafet> http://www.rarecandytreatment.com/comics/1019152/brink-of-mentality/
12:00:08 <nooodl> fizzie: must be someone's petname
12:00:41 <Roujo> I'm watching a game right now
12:00:54 <Roujo> And I'm having trouble following =P
12:02:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gSiR "it keeps happening"
12:06:47 <Jafet> Do not call watch captains shitty minetown bones.
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12:25:48 <elliott> graphical DF is impossible to play I think
12:28:20 <Jafet> You mean the one where an opengl program pretends to be a terminal emulator
12:28:28 <Jafet> That was weird yes
12:29:15 <elliott> I mean the one where you have to keep track of >100 tiny little smudgy pictures instead of simple geometric shapes you already know
12:41:33 <elliott> fizzie: whoa, tilaa have SSDs now.
12:42:35 <fizzie> "A lot of our competitors who offer SSD VPS actually only do SSD caching. That means that on the backend your data is still stored on "spinning rust" and the SSD's are used to offload the HDD's somewhat." I love the "spinning rust" expression, it's so disparaging.
12:43:48 <elliott> do I want 1 gigabyte of RAM and 20 GB of SSD or do I want 2 gigabytes of RAM and 30 GB of spinning rust?
12:43:52 <elliott> I guess the latter also has like twice the CPU.
12:44:05 <elliott> these prices were so much better when I thought 20 dollars was 20 pounds instead.
12:44:07 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> Can you think of an uncomputable number that isn't the limit of a sequence of computable numbers? <-- not if the sequence itself can be uncomputable. after all every real number is a limit of a sequence of rationals.
12:44:21 <elliott> oerjan: we went over thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis
12:45:01 <oerjan> hm, in fact you can even define explicitly a unique sequence...
12:45:26 <elliott> alternatively do I want 32 gigabytes of RAM, 19.2 GHz (???) of CPU, and 1280 gigabytes of hard disk (241.40 EUR/mo), or the same but with 240 gigabytes of SSD (243.80 EUR/mo)?
12:45:36 <oerjan> just take your favorite ... oh wait, just take the continued fraction cutoffs.
12:45:55 <elliott> wait, that's pretty incredibly cheap.
12:46:20 <elliott> 32 gigabytes of RAM and eight cores and a terabyte of disk for two hundred pounds a month?
12:46:31 <elliott> would anyone like to give me some money.
12:47:10 <Jafet> I can give my two cents
12:47:11 <fizzie> Aw, the SSD slider doesn't go above 240 gigs.
12:47:41 <oerjan> elliott: here's a nickel, boy. buy yourself a better computer.
12:48:07 <elliott> fizzie: yes. that was my one disappointment from accidentally hitting "end" on the storage meter and then seeing what would happen if I did it to all the other sliders too.
12:48:19 <Jafet> The funny thing is that you can actually get a computer for a nickel these days
12:48:21 <fizzie> I think the 19.2 GHz is like 8*2.4 GHz.
12:48:34 <oerjan> Jafet: something embedded stuff?
12:48:35 <Roujo> Jafet: Well, you can get anything for a nickel, really
12:48:44 <Roujo> It just depends on the nickle
12:49:26 <fizzie> If you ask for 32 gigs of RAM, the CPU slider also doesn't go below 9.6 GHz.
12:50:00 <Roujo> That's a lot of hertz o0
12:50:21 <oerjan> presumably that's sum of cores?
12:50:43 <Roujo> Could you imagine?
12:50:57 <fizzie> I guess I have a... 13.6 GHz computer, according to their math.
12:51:00 <Roujo> A single-core processor SO FAST that it makes parallel computing irrelevant
12:51:22 <oerjan> Roujo: that's what people imagined until about 2003 hth
12:51:29 <Roujo> http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=2587625
12:51:56 <Roujo> 8.7 GHz on an AMD FX-8350
12:52:14 <Jafet> Is memory faster than 133 MHz yet
12:52:18 <oerjan> 283.69 is quite precise
12:52:41 -!- carado has joined.
12:53:07 <Roujo> oerjan: My guess is that the last time he went to 283.70, the universe SEGFAULTed or something
12:53:24 <Roujo> So we're actually a restored-from-backup copy
12:54:07 <Jafet> http://totl.net/Eunuch/
12:54:20 <oerjan> i wondered if that was simply the result of two other numbers divided with unreasonable precision or something
12:54:48 <fizzie> Jafet: PS4 has (will have) eight gigs of GDDR5 (clock speed 1.375 GHz, data rate of 5.5Gbps) as its unified CPU/GPU RAM.
12:55:00 <Jafet> > approxRational 0.01 (1/283.69)
12:56:16 <oerjan> > 1/74 - 1/283.69 -- i don't think that's a very good use of approxRational
12:56:47 <oerjan> > approxRational 0.000001 (1/283.69)
12:57:03 <Jafet> > flip approxRational 0.01 (1/283.69)
12:57:28 <Jafet> > flip approxRational 0.000001 (1/283.69)
12:58:03 <fizzie> How about, you know, just changing the arguments instead of flipping the function?
12:58:04 <oerjan> > flip approxRational 0.00001 (1/283.69)
12:58:06 <elliott> fizzie: hmm, why don't computers do RAM like that?
12:58:15 <oerjan> fizzie: now that's crazy talk
12:58:24 <oerjan> > flip approxRational 0.0000001 (1/283.69)
12:59:03 <fizzie> elliott: Because it costs money, I suppose. (If you mean "why not use GDDR5 also for system RAM instead of GPU only", and not "why not unified memory architectures".)
12:59:22 <elliott> fizzie: I think I mean both, though I can think of reasons for the latter quicker.
12:59:35 <elliott> surely there are lots of people willing to pay money for computers.
12:59:39 <Roujo> We should just put the processor in the cloud, really
12:59:46 <Roujo> Outsource your motherboard
13:00:11 -!- boily has joined.
13:00:14 -!- metasepia has joined.
13:00:30 <fizzie> elliott: I think you need something different in the memory controller for that, and Intel et al. might not be willing to cater for the presumably-not-too-large market willing to pay for GDDR5 RAM. (Or I could be talking out of my ass; I don't know about hardware.)
13:00:35 <Roujo> Although I guess the cloud would be too mainstream
13:00:37 <elliott> Roujo: they call that OnLive.
13:00:52 <Roujo> I store all my files in the water table
13:00:53 <elliott> fizzie: isn't that market, like, all gamery and overclocky type weirdos.
13:00:59 <elliott> those people have lots of money.
13:01:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: GDDR5 has worse latency
13:01:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:01:10 <elliott> thank you Deewiant, that sounds like a much more realistic reason.
13:01:11 <Roujo> It's like the clound, only more underground
13:01:22 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
13:01:35 <elliott> Your Linode, solidity, has exceeded the notification threshold (1000) for disk io rate by averaging 1243.39 for the last 2 hours. The dashboard for this specific Linode is located at: <https://manager.linode.com/linodes/dashboard/solidity>
13:01:41 <elliott> linode email me every time I do an upgrade
13:02:03 <HackEgo> ais523_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:02:05 <elliott> ais523_: I like your thesis.
13:02:05 <Deewiant> And DDR4 is coming out anyway so if you want better/more expensive desktop RAM you'll get it
13:02:11 <ais523_> something else came up when I was writing my research, which is incredibly minor and probably not worth mentioning in the research
13:02:22 <ais523_> but it's arguably an esoprogramming problem, and I'm having trouble seeing the trick needed to get the answer
13:03:19 <ais523_> let's see... it's very easy to write a regular expression (I'm talking mathematical regular expression here, not regexp) to match strings of the form "ababababababab" and so on
13:03:30 <ais523_> and likewise, it's very easy to write one for "cdcdcdcdcdcdcd" and so on
13:03:39 <ais523_> but I'm trying to write one that matches any interleaving of those strings
13:03:49 <ais523_> as in, if you look at just the a's and b's, the a's and b's alternate
13:03:56 <ais523_> and if you look at just the c's and d's, the c's and d's alternate
13:04:08 <ais523_> but there's no restriction on how the a's and c's can line up against each other, for instance
13:04:12 <boily> ais523_: long time no see!
13:04:20 <ais523_> so something like abacabdc is fine
13:04:48 <ais523_> in theory, it should be possible, because it's clearly quite easy to write an FSM to do that
13:04:54 <ais523_> and regular expressions and FSMs are equally powerful
13:05:12 <Jafet> Alternatives, lots of alternatives
13:05:13 <Deewiant> Just write the FSM and convert it to a regex
13:06:41 <ais523_> hmm... the FSM is {from, input, to} {0,a,1},{0,c,2},{2,a,3},{1,c,3},{3,b,1},{3,d,2},{1,b,0},{2,c,0}
13:06:58 <ais523_> I'm not familiar with methods of regexifying those, though
13:07:26 <Deewiant> http://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/2016/how-to-convert-finite-automata-to-regular-expressions
13:08:12 <ais523_> (I'm currently writing about models of hardware, and have concluded that delay-insensitive asynchronous circuits are regular expressions and synchronous circuits are recurrence relations)
13:09:13 <fizzie> I remember a FSM-to-regular-expression conversion routine from the "intro to theoretical computer science" course.
13:09:25 <fizzie> It was all about merging edges and whatnot.
13:10:07 <fizzie> Presumably the same as the "state removal method" mentioned in Deewiant's link.
13:10:49 <Deewiant> It looks familiar so they're probably the same, yes.
13:12:10 <ais523_> so let's see... if I remove 3, we get {0,a,1},{0,c,2},{1,b,0},{2,c,0},{2,ab,2},{2,ad,1},{1,cb,2},{1,cd,1}
13:12:59 <ais523_> not quite, there are typos there, but I'll mentally correct them
13:13:00 <fizzie> ais523_: Are all your states final, or just the one that has both b and d last?
13:13:11 <Deewiant> Doing this by hand without drawing it is probably a good way of making mistakes and getting it a bit wrong
13:13:37 <fizzie> ais523_: In that case, I think you need to add epsilon edges from all to a dummy final state, since the algorithm only removes states that aren't final.
13:13:56 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it might still work out in practice, in your case.)
13:14:02 <ais523_> fizzie: right; it actually doesn't really matter for my application
13:14:16 <ais523_> especially because I'm just curious as to what it looks like, more than anything else
13:15:24 <ais523_> then removing 2: {0,a,1},{1,b,0},{1,cd,1},{0,c(ab)*d,0},{0,c(ab)*ad,1},{1,cb(ab)*d,0},{1,cb(ab*)ad,1}
13:16:22 <ais523_> which is {0,c(ab)*d,0},{0,a+c(ab)*ad,1},{1,b+cb(ab)*d,0},{1,cd+cb(ab*)ad,1}
13:17:03 <elliott> Deewiant: so why is the PS4 using higher-latency RAM then?
13:17:48 <Jafet> Presumably they believe in caches
13:17:50 <ais523_> then finally, removing 0: (c(ab)*d+((a+c(ab)*ad)(cd+cb(ab)*ad)*(b+cb(ab)*d)))*
13:17:57 <fizzie> elliott: From what I recall about the PS4 seminar, their developers were really hankering for a unified memory architecture. Plus they were focused a lot on doing non-graphics ("compute shaders") stuff on the GPU.
13:18:13 <Jafet> That regular expression is smaller than I thought
13:18:17 <fizzie> elliott: (Parallelized GPU work is of course more about throughput than latencies.)
13:18:23 <ais523_> that's not in lowest terms, though
13:18:52 <elliott> ais523_: that regular expression is basically what I was on the path to writing (very slowly)
13:19:01 <ais523_> then finally, removing 0: (c(ab)*d+((a+c(ab)*ad)(c(ba)*d)*(b+cb(ab)*d)))*
13:19:09 <ais523_> * (c(ab)*d+((a+c(ab)*ad)(c(ba)*d)*(b+cb(ab)*d)))*
13:19:13 <katla> what does it match
13:19:15 <elliott> ais523_: I just started writing out all the permutations in the knowledge that since {a,b,c,d} is finite, eventually there'll be a synchronisation point where you can just * the whole thing
13:19:25 <elliott> but then you found a non-stupid way to do it before I could be bothered
13:19:32 <ais523_> katla: strings where a and b alternate (with potential c and d in between) and also c and d alternate (with potential a and b in between)
13:19:38 <Jafet> Shouldn't the expression be symmetrical
13:19:47 <ais523_> elliott: that's what I started doing but I ended up failing due to lack of a GOTO :(
13:20:10 <katla> eyeah you can just write an NFA for it
13:20:23 <ais523_> katla: that's what we just did in-channel
13:20:54 <ais523_> conclusion: state machines are a better model for asynchronous digital circuits than regular expressions
13:22:17 <ais523_> this must be why electronic engineers like them so much
13:22:24 <Jafet> You need less time to type regular expressions than to draw state machines though
13:22:38 <Jafet> Think about this as the paper deadline nears
13:23:44 <fizzie> On the third hand, you don't get to use a TeX package for drawing state machines.
13:24:05 <ais523_> Jafet: yeah, that's actually why I was using regular expressions so far
13:26:09 <Jafet> The simple regular expressions might also correspond to some interesting subset of circuits
13:26:27 <ais523_> does "simple" have a technical meaning here?
13:27:00 <ais523_> anyway, the reason why regular expressions are appropriate for this is that not only do these sorts of circuit (like most circuits) not produce certain outputs, they also refuse certain inputs
13:27:05 <ais523_> as in, those inputs can't be given to it
13:27:10 <metasepia> simple definition: free from guile.
13:27:45 <ais523_> it's not even in the sense of bottom/fail, either; it's in the sense of undefined behaviour
13:27:56 <ais523_> for some reason, I find it reassuring seeing UB come up in formal mathematics
13:28:17 <Jafet> I thought asynchronous circuits accepted all (appropriately spaced) inputs
13:29:10 <ais523_> this is delay-insensitive circuits, so the potential appropriate spacing could be infinite
13:29:15 <ais523_> and you can only determine it via observing their output
13:29:39 <ais523_> e.g. for a simple circuit like XOR, AQ+BQ, once you give A you can't send A again or B until you get the Q
13:30:21 <ais523_> or for a circuit like C, ABQ+BAQ, once you've sent A, you have to send B next, you're never allowed to send A twice without a Q in between (and the Q won't be sent until it sees the B)
13:30:39 <ais523_> also, something that confuses me a lot is that the person who invented the C element is apparently called Muller, no umlaut
13:31:46 <Deewiant> Pronounce it /mʌlər/ to be safe
13:33:56 <elliott> does anyone know what decides what Debian packages are installed as part of a "base system"?
13:34:05 <elliott> there doesn't seem to be a metapackage corresponding to something like ubuntu-desktop
13:34:12 <elliott> and the packages don't seem to all be marked as automatically installed
13:34:23 <Jafet> gnome-desktop-task
13:34:35 <elliott> (I'm trying to get a list of all packages I explicitly installed; aptitude search '~i !~M !~E' does okay but includes a lot of stuff that comes with Debian)
13:34:39 <elliott> Jafet: but it's a server :p
13:34:52 <Jafet> Oh, the actual base system.
13:35:25 <ais523_> elliott: I remember reading something in Debian policy about that
13:35:33 <ais523_> (what does it say about me that I read Debian policy for fun?)
13:36:13 <Jafet> You are well-informed about relevant items.
13:36:32 <ais523_> elliott: "all packages with priority `required' or `important'"
13:36:50 <ais523_> so basically anything with a lower priority, you installed yourself
13:37:21 <ais523_> that's actually a simpler definition than I was expecting
13:39:17 <ais523_> fwiw, the breakdown seems to be: "required" = enough functionality to boot the system and install more software; "important" = minimal amount needed to be able to reasonably administer the system without having to install extra packages to do so; "standard" = reasonable defaults for a small character-mode system; "optional" = pretty much everything goes here; "extra" = packages that conflict with more useful packages or are only us
13:39:30 <ais523_> a base system is required+important, a default install is required+important+standard
13:39:46 <ais523_> and required+important+standard+optional is intended to be theoretically possible but you'd have to be mad to actually do ti
13:40:13 <Deewiant> ais523_: Cut off: '"extra" = packages that conflict with more useful packages or are only us'
13:40:23 <ais523_> ...useful in specialized cases
13:40:32 <fizzie> Filtering based on priority might help in "list explicit installations".
13:40:34 <ais523_> like debug symbols, that sort of thing
13:40:51 <Jafet> Pretty sure there would be people that test *+optional systems
13:40:59 <ais523_> yeah, I think there's at least one
13:41:01 <fizzie> !~prequired or some-such.
13:41:28 <ais523_> well, "required" is pretty much "if this isn't installed, your system is doomed"
13:42:01 <ais523_> whereas "essential", a different measurement is "things that are installed so widely that you don't need to bother declaring dependencies on them"
13:42:08 <ais523_> *, a different measurement,
13:42:49 <fizzie> ais523_: There seems to be (possibly hardware-detect-related?) things in the default install that don't have those priorities, yet aren't marked with a high priority.
13:43:12 <fizzie> ais523_: E.g. "acpi" has Priority: optional, is not marked as automatically installed, is installed, and I certainly haven't installed it myself.
13:43:24 <fizzie> ais523_: (And this was just a base system with no tasksel tasks, IIRC.)
13:43:27 <ais523_> yeah, it seems possible that the installer would add in drivers specific to your hardware config
13:43:41 <ais523_> policy doesn't mention that, but OTOH I don't see a reason why it would
13:44:02 <fizzie> Similarly other such things like pciutils, pm-utils seem to be here.
13:44:55 <fizzie> (Okay, pciutils is Priority: standard. But pciutils is optional.)
13:45:05 <fizzie> Er, pm-utils is optional.
13:46:08 <fizzie> Huh, how have I ended up with a non-automatic installation of 'libfreeimage3'?
13:46:22 <fizzie> I don't even have a single package that'd depend on it.
13:46:24 <elliott> ais523_: huh, python and perl match even with !~prequired !~pimportant
13:46:29 <elliott> do those raelly not come with debian?
13:47:09 <ais523_> elliott: there's -minimal versions that are shipped with debian
13:47:22 <fizzie> ais523_: Curiously enough, both python and python-minimal are Priority: standard.
13:47:22 <ais523_> IIRC, the full version of Perl is flagged build-essential, but not anything higher than that
13:47:38 <ais523_> (which means that Perl doesn't have to be specified as a build dependency of anything, and thus needs to be installed to build packages)
13:47:42 <Jafet> I like how prequired includes awk, sed, perl, and two shells.
13:47:47 <fizzie> (perl-base is 'required', perl is 'standard'.)
13:48:04 <ais523_> Jafet: that's because they're often used in init scripts and the like, I guess
13:48:17 <ais523_> also I have a suspicion that apt is written at least partly in Perl
13:48:31 <Jafet> But apt is pimportant.
13:48:37 <elliott> $ aptitude search '~pimportant !~i'
13:48:38 <elliott> c libboost-iostreams1.46.1 - Boost.Iostreams Library
13:48:41 <elliott> c libboost-iostreams1.48.0 - Boost.Iostreams Library
13:48:41 <fizzie> Also called "p. important".
13:48:44 <elliott> p libboost-iostreams1.53.0 - Boost.Iostreams Library
13:48:47 <elliott> p libboost-iostreams1.54.0 - Boost.Iostreams Library
13:48:50 <elliott> c libept1 - High-level library for managing Debian package information
13:48:53 <elliott> c libsysfs2 - interface library to sysfs
13:48:56 <elliott> p nfacct - netfilter accounting object tool
13:48:59 <elliott> why are there a bunch of versions of a boost library there
13:49:03 <Jafet> That dirty ortant.
13:49:09 <fizzie> elliott: Because of aptitude.
13:49:21 <ais523_> hmm, what does required use as the package manger?
13:49:25 <fizzie> elliott: (It depends on libboost-iostreams.)
13:49:45 <elliott> is it showing other versions that could satisfy the requirement for libboost-iostreams and hence are important
13:49:52 <elliott> despite the fact that I'll have some other version of libboost-iostreams installed?
13:50:00 <ais523_> yeah, that makes sense, I guess
13:50:12 <Jafet> There is no wget. Presumably you need to load debs off a floppy.
13:50:13 <fizzie> elliott: Those two "c" entries are some kind of conflicts, I think.
13:50:32 <ais523_> hmm, is this a version of debian before or after they invented "breaks"?
13:50:43 <elliott> but it started as squeeze or something
13:50:48 <elliott> maybe even the one before squeeze
13:50:59 <ais523_> probably a new version, then, because I don't recognise that codename
13:51:06 <ais523_> (except that it comes from toy story)
13:51:12 <elliott> $ aptitude search '~i !~M !~E !~prequired !~pimportant !~Rbuild-essential' | less
13:51:21 <elliott> ais523_: jessie is testing right now
13:51:22 <fizzie> ais523_: Both gcc-4.7-base and gcc-4.8-base are in priority: required.
13:51:40 <elliott> btw, is the official Debian package manager apt-get or aptitude this week?
13:51:42 <ais523_> fizzie: that makes sense, I think
13:52:18 <fizzie> Also some rather curious things that presumably are dependencies of something; like libtext-charwidth-perl "get display widths of characters on the terminal".
13:52:42 <elliott> heh, I had gcc 4.4 installed
13:52:44 <Jafet> libncurses is prequired.
13:52:55 <elliott> I like "prequired", it looks like a word
13:53:05 <elliott> huh, I have busybox installed explicitly
13:53:12 <elliott> but why would I have installed busybox?
13:53:16 <Jafet> I think bash is the only program that needs it.
13:53:32 <elliott> hmm... I wonder if there's a way to phrase "not depended on by any other installed packages"
13:53:57 <Jafet> You mean the roots?
13:54:16 <quintopia> the ones that are not depended on are leaves
13:54:29 <quintopia> the ones with no dependencies are roots
13:54:53 <quintopia> and those seem like as good names as any for those things
13:55:00 <HackEgo> teiwerke ben kiim men khi jan earra tam sacripe dugo maged traft distile elson flama vasci crawa word unho sou
13:55:26 <fizzie> Jafet: util-linux PreDepends on libncurses5 too.
13:55:27 <elliott> and why do I have tcpd installed?
13:55:31 <elliott> I don't remember installing half these packages
13:55:49 <fizzie> Jafet: (And a couple of pimportant things -- procps, bsdmainutils -- but nothing else prequired.)
13:56:21 <fizzie> In fact, bash doesn't; just libtinfo5.
13:56:29 <elliott> why does my server have mplayer installed???
13:56:44 <elliott> why does my server have mingetty installed...
13:57:15 <fizzie> For the virtual terminal provided by your VPS system's VNC console thingamajick?
13:57:30 <elliott> but it's explicitly installed and stuff.
13:57:37 <elliott> I guess that just means the VPS installation process might have explicitly installed it.
13:57:53 <elliott> a victory: learned that mailman was installed; uninstalled it.
14:00:48 <elliott> i console-setup - console font and keymap setup program
14:00:52 <elliott> come on, why is this installed
14:01:17 <fizzie> It gets done real early in the setup, automatically, by the installer.
14:01:39 <Jafet> Are you trying to uninstall things until debian stops working
14:01:48 <fizzie> I think everything that's done as a particular step by the installer ends up in your query.
14:02:02 <elliott> they should mark these things better :(
14:02:11 <fizzie> E.g. I've got exim4 there, and I certainly didn't install it explicitly myself, but the installer did to get the default mail system in place.
14:02:32 <Jafet> I have never attempted to use the automatically-installed indicator manually.
14:02:46 <elliott> i eject - ejects CDs and operates CD-Changers under
14:02:59 <ais523_> eject's description is misleading
14:03:04 <elliott> I want to believe that I can cause the CD tray of some physical server sitting in a data centre somewhere to pop out
14:03:09 <elliott> that would make my day, I think
14:03:24 <Jafet> You want to believe that your rack mount server has a CD tray
14:03:33 <ais523_> it unmounts arbitrary removable media, regardless of whether it's a CD or a USB stick or whatever
14:03:46 <Jafet> Oh ok, it could be a virtual CD tray.
14:03:49 <ais523_> (and thus is necessary because umount only works as root)
14:04:03 <elliott> fizzie: what do you want if you just want a sendmail executable these days on Debian?
14:04:11 <elliott> install exim and just accept that you'll have a daemon running?
14:04:49 <fizzie> elliott: I've used 'scmail' for a thing where I just wanted a sendmail-binary-compatible replacement that always sends everything to a SMTP server.
14:05:43 <elliott> oh, that wants a proper mail server
14:05:53 <elliott> my use-case is "MediaWiki wants to be able to send emails"
14:06:14 <fizzie> Well, do you want people to be able to receive the emails it wants to send?
14:06:58 <elliott> ii g++ 4:4.7.2-1 i386 GNU C++ compiler
14:07:01 <elliott> ii g++-4.7 4.7.3-4 i386 GNU C++ compiler
14:07:04 <elliott> ii gcc 4:4.7.2-1 i386 GNU C compiler
14:07:07 <elliott> ii gcc-4.7 4.7.3-4 i386 GNU C compiler
14:07:10 <elliott> ii gcc-4.7-base:i386 4.7.3-4 i386 GCC, the GNU Compiler Collection (base package)
14:07:13 <elliott> ii gcc-4.8-base:i386 4.8.1-2 i386 GCC, the GNU Compiler Collection (base package)
14:07:16 <elliott> I do wonder why gcc-4.8-base is all on its own there.
14:07:16 <Jafet> You're running mediawiki, and you don't like the exim daemon?
14:07:26 <Jafet> 4.8 is the hipster version
14:07:30 <fizzie> scmail, ssmtp and one-other-I-forget-which are reasonable replacements for the case where you have a nearby real (SMTP-accessible) mail server and you want to use that for all outgoing mail.
14:08:00 <ais523_> doesn't sending mail require a daemon, in general, for the case where there's a temporary fault on the next server in the chain?
14:08:25 <fizzie> ais523_: Not if you can live with the fact that the 'sendmail' binary just returns an error in that case.
14:08:26 <elliott> Jafet: it has postfix right now and I don't know why.
14:08:37 <elliott> ideally I'd just install the simplest "Debian Way"(tm) thing for it. maybe that is just exim
14:08:56 <Jafet> I thought the typical mail chain is of length 2 these days
14:09:00 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:09:02 <fizzie> ais523_: (If you want to talk directly to other people's mail servers, then.)
14:09:16 <elliott> I wonder if there is a way to install mencoder that doesn't hurt me by having packages named e.g. libgl1-mesa-glx and libxinerama1 on my server.
14:09:36 <fizzie> Jafet: My most recent message in the inbox has 11 Received: headers.
14:10:24 <fizzie> ais523_: Well, yes. Let's see a most recent non-list post.
14:11:05 <oklopol> ais523_: it's very often the case that a closure property of regular languages has a natural implementation by FSA, but there is really no way to do it with regular expressions
14:11:14 <Jafet> Heh, mencoder depends on mplayer.
14:11:40 <ais523_> oklopol: yeah, that makes sense
14:11:54 <oklopol> can you give an example of the vice versa
14:12:24 <oklopol> trivial things like reversal & homomorphisms are slightly easier with regexps, but they are also trivial for FSA.
14:12:30 <elliott> I think I need ghostscript for mediawiki
14:12:41 <ais523_> there's one on the Wikipedia page: (a+b)*a(a+b)(a+b)(a+b)(a+b)(a+b)
14:12:42 <elliott> which is annoying beacuse it also wants me to have libxinerama1
14:12:43 <oklopol> well maybe there are such examples, dunno
14:12:55 <elliott> should just install ubuntu
14:12:57 <elliott> and forget I have packages
14:12:57 <fizzie> scia-ca-demic.org (first source), smtp-in-02.aalto.fi (ingress SMTP here), "localhost (Email Security Appliance)", marconi.ics.hut.fi (departmental SMTP inside the local network), localhost (amavisd), marconi.ics.hut.fi (again), marconi.ics.hut.fi (Cyrus LMTP).
14:13:07 <ais523_> you get an exponential blowup of state because you need to remember which of the most recent 6 characters have been a
14:13:33 <ais523_> fizzie: is "again" a hostname, there?
14:13:49 <ais523_> yeah, you can't get a combinatorial explosion converting a regex to an NFA
14:13:55 <fizzie> ais523_: No, it was a description.
14:14:20 <ais523_> I almost want to call a computer "again", now, but it'd violate my naming convention
14:14:26 <ais523_> where all my computers are named after biomes
14:14:40 <elliott> does ais523_ have a computer named "nether" yet
14:15:01 <Jafet> fizzie: but isn't all of .fi just one host or something
14:15:08 <ais523_> elliott: no, also I don't think that's a real biome
14:15:36 <boily> there should be one machine named "disco", for the new 1.6 cañons.
14:15:55 <fizzie> Checked another chain for the personal email; that one went: mailsend.netposti.fi - mailsend.netposti.fi - ikiaikainen.iki.fi - jatkuu.iki.fi - fe23.mail.saunalahti.fi - be18.mail.saunalahti.fi - "tmail-2006i.2007-sau", whatever that means.
14:16:12 <elliott> I should just pay ais523_ to run my server for me
14:16:17 <elliott> ais523_: how much do you want
14:16:18 <fizzie> So the chains aren't quite of length 2 yet.
14:16:23 <ais523_> but that'd mean having to administer MediaWiki
14:16:46 <elliott> I just ignore it until the version number gets sufficiently far behind that I feel really guilty
14:16:47 <fizzie> Ooh, a DKIM signature, so fancy.
14:16:51 <ais523_> elliott: fwiw, I've sometimes taken days to notice that the nethackd on nethack4.org is down
14:16:57 <fizzie> (Mail headers are such a joy.)
14:17:14 <elliott> ais523_: I guess your community is scared of you
14:17:24 <ais523_> elliott: it's more that the user-visible error message is really misleading
14:17:33 <Jafet> When I installed my computer, I named it test
14:17:39 <ais523_> regardless of what protocol they connected via
14:17:41 <fizzie> Both http://pulseaudio.org/ and http://alsa.opensrc.org/ have been down the last couple of days, right when I was configuring those two things.
14:17:46 <Jafet> This leads to weird pauses when looking at network logs
14:17:58 <fizzie> I've had to use some sort of freedesktop.org copy of PA documentation and whatnot.
14:18:28 <elliott> ais523_: it actually really annoys me that I have PHP and MySQL installed just for one abominable program :)
14:18:54 <fizzie> It annoys me that I have PHP and MySQL installed for just one abominable program (Gallery2).
14:18:55 <elliott> too bad there is not really any viable alternative I could get away with
14:18:56 <ais523_> I think MySQL is a dependency of something important in Ubuntu. Somehow.
14:19:12 <Jafet> That's if you consider anything in ubuntu important
14:19:13 <boily> is mariadb ubuntu-ready?
14:19:20 <elliott> it might be MariaDB I have
14:19:31 <elliott> I assume it is still just horrific
14:20:08 <fizzie> Qt4 brings in the MySQL client, but at least not the server.
14:20:57 <elliott> ais523_: oh, the worst thing about MW is that Debian's package is really old
14:21:02 <elliott> so it's a real pain to upgrade
14:21:11 <fizzie> (Via libqtgui4 -> libqt4-declarative -> libqt4-sql -> libqt4-sql-mysql -> libmysqlclient18.)
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14:41:49 <metasepia> Your divination: "Obstruction" to "Obstruction"
14:45:05 <boily> I think elliott is in a serious pinch.
14:48:06 <metasepia> Your divination: "Retiring" to "Radiance"
14:50:23 <boily> Roujo: ~yi ignores its parameters. you have to think about the question with your mind (or soul, if you prefer. in an emergency, you can also use a rental soul, but results aren't as good usually. ymmv. hth.) hth.
14:50:43 <boily> I guess you could also tag your yises to remember what were the questions asked.
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14:54:41 <boily> Phantom_Helloover.
14:55:15 <Roujo> Thanks, boily, I'll keep that in mind =)
14:55:20 <Roujo> `relcome Phantom_Hoover
14:55:22 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:57:45 <ais523_> hmm, I never knew what relcome looked like, until I viewed it in a webclient
14:57:49 <ais523_> (I filter colors on my usual client)
14:58:37 <Bike> http://leonarnott.neocities.org/ awesome
14:58:42 <Bike> oh hey, it'a ais. hais
14:58:50 <ais523_> is that like geocities and reocities?
14:59:06 <Bike> hm, looks like it
14:59:16 <ais523_> sorry I was missing for a while, I was trying to track down a copy of a specific paper book
14:59:20 <Bike> " Designed as a 21st century reincarnation of GeoCities, NeoCities lets you make your own site for free. And it just might spark a renaissance of creativity online. "
14:59:32 <ais523_> because it seems that everyone has been copying citations of it without looking at the actual book itself
14:59:47 <boily> Bike: why. why did you link to that.
14:59:49 <ais523_> turns out the library here has a copy but it's buried in some secret vault somewhere that takes a while to open, or something
15:00:03 <ais523_> "Switching theory. Vol. 2, Sequential circuits and machines", fwiw
15:00:16 <ais523_> it's what everyone cites as the source of the Muller C-element
15:00:40 <ais523_> (interestingly, Muller appears to be Muller not Müller, and yet the book is by... Miller)
15:01:00 <ais523_> anyway, I'm wondering if it really is the original source, or if there's an older one
15:01:07 <Bike> elliott: sure what is it
15:01:39 <elliott> Bike: write a mediawiki replacement in any language other than PHP with any storage mechanism other than MySQL.
15:01:54 <ais523_> there used to be an experimental postgresql branch of mediawiki
15:02:21 <elliott> but I don't see much point converting the database to only get (a) worse support, (b) still have to use PHP, (c) etc.
15:02:22 <ais523_> so that's half of the problem solved :)
15:02:35 <ais523_> I wonder if you could compile the PHP into something else
15:03:01 <elliott> but it'd still have the architecture of a PHP application
15:03:03 <Bike> i'll use http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain
15:03:39 <elliott> you're the one missing out on $300 here
15:05:47 <Bike> i don't think $300 is enough to justify learning web programming
15:06:54 <boily> I'm a professional developer. I could do that for you, starting rate at 100 CAD/hour, negociable.
15:07:23 <elliott> boily: that is okay as long as you do it in three hours.
15:08:32 <Bike> wait is it just "300 dollars" independent of currency
15:08:45 <elliott> as long as they're dollars
15:09:52 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar#Economies_that_use_a_dollar hm
15:09:54 <boily> I'll go with NZD, then :D
15:09:56 <Bike> need some exchange rates here
15:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-valued_currency_unit
15:13:44 <Bike> so you'd get like $360 USD, nice
15:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover> warwick have decided to replace their outdated student management webpage thing with an absolutely horrible one
15:24:41 <boily> is it based on Banner?
15:26:04 <boily> yes you do. http://www.ellucian.com/Solutions/Banner-Student/
15:26:41 <boily> that thing is pure absolute certified crap. we had a undemocratic totalitarian forced transition pushed on us when I was at university.
15:29:16 <boily> Roujo: si quelqu'un de louche avec un trenchcoat dans la rue te propose d'aller à l'université laval, dit non.
15:30:05 <Roujo> boily: Considérant que c'est à 3h d'ici et que je dois prendre le train pour 16h00... Okay =P
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15:34:46 <elliott> ais523_: ooh, maybe Esolang could run on ikiwiki instead
15:35:15 <ais523_> I'm not sure wiki migrations from one codebase to another are massively easy or successful
15:35:30 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but MediaWiki is just that awful...
15:35:41 <ais523_> elliott: imagine how difficult migrating from it will be, then!
15:35:46 <elliott> ais523_: ideally I would write something with the exact same markup/template/etc. stuff as MediaWiki
15:36:04 <ais523_> Roujo: the most obvious reason for a server admin is that it uses up mindbogglingly high server resources for no obvious reason
15:36:12 <Roujo> ais523_: Alright. =P
15:36:25 <Roujo> I use MediaWiki and never noticed anything wrong, so I was curious
15:36:35 <ais523_> it's quite nice from a user's point of view
15:36:43 <elliott> the server resources are OK
15:36:45 <ais523_> it doesn't fall into the trap of trying to use markdown for markup, for instance
15:36:46 <Roujo> I mean that I admin a MediaWiki site
15:36:47 <elliott> except like, MySQL itself takes up a ton
15:36:55 <elliott> assuming you use caching etc.
15:37:01 <elliott> but if you don't then you're really crazy of course
15:37:13 <Roujo> Depends on the number of hits you get, I'd guess
15:37:15 <ais523_> well it depends on how often the site is accessed
15:37:24 <Roujo> I'd be surprised if I got more then 5/day =P
15:37:45 <elliott> well it also takes something like three lines of configuration to set up caching
15:37:57 <ais523_> yeah but what if you get slashdotted? or reddited? or linked from the home page of Google?
15:38:28 <Roujo> Considering that all that's on the Wiki is the ruleset for a Nomic game that's in a coma and some docs for a Super Mario World ROM Conversion that my brother is doing
15:38:52 <Roujo> Then this happens: http://wiki.psychose.ca/
15:38:58 <Roujo> (The wiki isn't public =P)
15:39:15 <Roujo> Heck, I was supposed to put in a $wgLogo, but never did
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15:43:40 <ais523_> hmm, I think I'll stick to the plan of joining #esoteric if and only if I have something esoprogramming-related to say
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15:44:41 <Taneb> I've got to stop these damnded naps
15:48:50 <Phantom_Hoover> you never know when the six pigs will begin their forage
15:50:48 <Roujo> Darn pigs these days
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15:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> you never know when the Six Pigs will begin their Forage
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16:28:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, we don't talk about the Dread Forage, lest we invoke Its Happening
16:43:00 -!- Administrator1 has joined.
16:44:59 <HackEgo> Administrator1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:48:49 -!- Administrator1 has changed nick to fox___.
16:52:28 <fox___> so what do you guys talk about on here?
16:53:58 <fox___> post structural I mean
16:54:22 <elliott> not too keen on the dying, either
16:56:39 <fox___> whatcha talking about?
16:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fox___, (we did tell you what the channel was about in rainbow colours)
16:57:12 <fox___> I know not much of political theory but was confused by the mention of electric-dielectric
16:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a marxist dialectic, and i live in constant hope that i will one day be able to make a decent pun on it with dielectric
17:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> (this channel is actually about esolangs, which mostly manifests in the form of the offtopic tangents averaging out to being centred on esolangs)
17:00:51 <fox___> right..reading about them now
17:01:15 <fox___> so church of the subgenius applied to extra cryptic programming...nice
17:03:23 <fox___> http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics13/devivals/2007/Balto-07poster-legume.jpg
17:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> doesn't work as well in high-res, loading from the top-down
17:04:20 <ka7la> so is ICFP competition out yet?
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18:16:01 <fizzie> Welp, I "fixed" that USB audio stick issue by the ludicrously low-tech manner of just writing a fixed default.pa config that doesn't use the usual approach (module-udev-detect loading module-alsa-card*N) but just configures module-alsa-sinks and module-alsa-sources in a predefined manner; that way it doesn't seem to really touch mixer controls.
18:18:14 * boily stands far, far away from fizzie's PA aura
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18:18:44 <fizzie> I tried out the JACK thing, and it... worked, but it wasn't really the best fit for a desktop audio config like this.
18:22:01 <boily> jack is good. jack is your friend.
18:22:58 <fizzie> I don't really know. I need volume control for my headphones, and I don't have any proper audio hardware with knobs and such.
18:23:02 <boily> besides, if you eventually manage to get PA correctly running with multiple audio devices (and some USB ones), ping me please.
18:23:20 <fizzie> Wiring things through jack-mixer "worked", but was very clunky.
18:23:20 <boily> oh. well. then maybe JACK is perhaps a little bit maybe too overkill.
18:23:42 <boily> apart from the pretty splines you get from that, it can get nightmarish enough quickly.
18:25:26 <fizzie> This PA setup seems okay now that I convinced it to not really do too much. When it tried to manage "cards" it was kind of crummy, but now it just has a list of ALSA PCM playback devices as sinks, and capture devices as sources, and that's about it.
18:25:54 <fizzie> Though without the udev autoloading thingie in place, I need to run a pa script after plugging in the stick; perhaps not a great chore.
18:26:28 <olsner> why not just use plain alsa instead of pulseaudio?
18:26:34 <fizzie> Curiously enough, the onboard audio actually has passable quality in this system. On the previous one, with headphones, there was horrible amounts of noise e.g. when moving the mouse around, or esp. windows.
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18:28:33 <fizzie> olsner: Because it's so awkward when I want to move some audio stream from USB-stick headphones to soapbox mini-speakers to S/PDIF out to the big speakers. Every app does its configuration differently; and changes to .asoundrc take place only when they feel like it.
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18:30:52 <fizzie> I'd probably go with Alsa and dmix if I just had that one audio device that'd have all these modalities.
18:31:15 <olsner> sounds like you've found an actual usecase for pulseaudio then, congratulations
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18:32:44 <fizzie> There's some sort of a thing on the onboard sound chip that it can make a copy of the "Default PCM" stream into the S/PDIF hole, so that sort of merges two of the three, but there's still the headphones. (Unless I switch to using the headphone port on the onboard sound, which wasn't an alternative before.)
18:34:35 <boily> or, you could, you know, use a windows machine :P
18:34:47 <boily> (sez the linux guys who works for a FOSS company...)
18:36:06 <fizzie> This machine does in fact have a Windows nowadays, since I had some leftover disks.
18:36:10 <zzo38> Use the designated audio output on the sound card; that ought to work better than using USB, because then you don't get the noise when moving the mouse and whatever.
18:36:53 <fizzie> zzo38: In the old system I had, it was exactly the other way around. The USB device had very good audio quality, while the onboard audio out was noisy as anything, especially when something happened on-screen.
18:37:15 <fizzie> (In this new setup, both seem fine.)
18:38:50 <zzo38> Yes, I have actually heard of both ways in different computers, but maybe the onboard audio was a defective sound card? It would seem that if it is implemented properly, the analog output of the sound card should work. (The operating system might not be designed for any of this, though, necessarily. But I think there is a variant of Linux which is designed for this?)
18:45:57 <kmc> boily: who do you work for?
18:46:09 <kmc> streaming audio over the network is another actual use case for pulseaudio
18:47:24 <kmc> I've enjoyed using this (or another audio daemon? i forgot) to have video playing from the media server on the big projection screen, with audio sent to my headphones via laptop (so I don't disturb housemates)
18:47:45 <kmc> still I think it's absurd that Pulse is the default even for people with the common case of one audio device
18:51:02 <Taneb> In Scandinavia and the World, Finland's shirt is a lot more centred than I thought
18:51:21 <Bike> hi somebody tell me something interesting that has nothing to do with dawkins
18:52:13 <Taneb> Bike, in Scandinavia and the World, characters who would have Nordic crosses on their shirts have them way too centred
18:53:03 <Taneb> For reference, http://satwcomic.com/poster
18:53:26 <Bike> that is weird.
18:53:47 <Bike> what's the black catlooking thing
18:54:27 <fizzie> I kind of like the idea of switching to plain ALSA, and the sound quality seems fine... but the computer's headphone port is pretty much on the floor, while the USB stick is in a hub on the desk, and the cable's more comfortable that way.
18:55:27 <Taneb> Bike, an Icelandic Hellspawn
18:55:38 <Taneb> Because Iceland is right next to hell, don'tchaknow
18:56:30 <Taneb> The thing on Denmark's head is a beer-drinking ghost
18:56:44 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't assemble the royal seal from 1p coins alone, idiot
18:57:12 <Bike> stop ruining my immersion, comic
18:57:16 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's written by a Dane. The author slapped the Brit who was explaining it to her then ran away
18:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> she even says she played around with them when she was in the uk! this is just sloppy work
18:58:45 <kmc> Rust kind of has the same problem as C++ where you write everything twice, in a mutable version and an immutable version
18:58:59 <kmc> except that in C++ you can avoid this just by ignoring const correctness
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19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_British_Coinage_2008.jpg
19:00:54 <Bike> wow phantom i didn't know you were a HUGE NERD
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19:01:08 <boily> kmc: savoirfairelinux.com.
19:01:23 * boily slaps Bike with a very nerdish penguin.
19:01:37 <kmc> boily: well you are a Microsoft Certified Partner too
19:02:21 <kmc> I like how I can kind of read French for no clear reason
19:02:26 <kmc> maybe due to knowing some Spanish
19:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> and the fact that it's a romance language, i mean come on
19:02:57 <kmc> or maybe because computer shit is the same in every language
19:03:09 <kmc> drupal est un blog de GPL en PHP
19:03:25 <kmc> PHP est merde
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19:04:38 <Bike_> kmc: from practice reading "segfault" in every language
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19:15:47 <boily> kmc: d'accord pour le php. la certification microsoft est un détail technique.
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19:32:55 <Taneb> I wonder if I have enough coins to do the coiny thing
19:35:51 <fizzie> IDGI. A keybinding to spawn "scrot -z ..." for a full-screen screenshot works fine; a keybinding to spawn "scrot -s -z ..." just results in "giblib error: couldn't grab keyboard:Resource temporarily unavailable" in .xsession-errors; "scrot -s -z ..." from the command line works just fine and lets me select a rectangle.
19:36:37 <zzo38> kmc: If you can make the mutable and immutable version in Rust, is there some kind of way to use macros to make it do that automatically in some cases?
19:36:57 <fizzie> (And running scrot -z -s from a spawn "dmenu_run" also works.)
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19:38:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, would that make me the Heir of Cash
19:39:18 -!- yorick has joined.
19:39:46 <Taneb> I told you dog. I warned you about the bureaucracy.
19:39:50 <fizzie> Well, that's stupid; apparently spawn "sleep 0.1; scrot -s -z ..." works; the select-a-rectangle mode just doesn't like working if it's started when the hotkey is still down.
19:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> at least i know my national insurance number this time
19:43:30 <kmc> zzo38: sometimes
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19:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my daughter
19:58:57 <Taneb> Time travel and future technology gender reassignment surgery?#
19:59:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you're your own grandfather#
19:59:22 <Taneb> Why do I keep hitting hash before enter#
20:00:37 <boily> your keyboard are weird.
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20:01:19 <Taneb> I think it's inaccurateandslippyfingeritis
20:03:42 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: don't worry, I want to know where you live this year.
20:03:52 <boily> katla: when the Infamous Interview will be out too.
20:04:35 <boily> hm. looks like I had never mentioned where in montreal I live.
20:04:58 * boily can hear HackEgo churning and grinding...
20:05:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7170
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20:35:32 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> you never know when the six pigs will begin their forage <-- wat
20:36:39 <oerjan> are they related to these http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130805
20:38:26 <oerjan> the hexham apocalypse, i take?
20:40:57 <oerjan> also by wikipedia forage is either plant material or fish, so i think we should be safe.
20:49:03 <fizzie> Huh, the "really" thing (of postgresql 9.3+142really9.1+146) seems to be a full-blown Debian-testing/unstable convention; here's yafaray 0.1.2+really0.1.2~beta5-5+b1.
20:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, to Them Of Whom The Jews Do Not Eat we are but fish
20:51:31 <oerjan> i suppose i _do_ recall some stories of pigs eating people.
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21:01:23 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my daughter
21:01:27 <HackEgo> 1084) <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my daughter
21:01:31 <oerjan> a moment in #esoteric.
21:01:38 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
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22:03:53 <Bike> http://betabeat.com/2013/08/app-will-ping-you-when-its-time-to-bang/ cool
22:04:54 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:07:57 <oerjan> mnoqy is angry because he bumped his toe on it hth
22:08:22 <zzo38> Then you have to be more careful next time.
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23:05:16 <shachaf> kmc: exciting new rust runtime
23:06:15 <kmc> as of today, Rust's runtime is written in Rust
23:06:20 <kmc> not many languages can do that
23:06:29 <Bike> oh that is nice.
23:06:29 <Lumpio-> Except most compiled languages
23:06:30 <Fiora> is gcc's runtime written in C?
23:06:37 <Bike> libc is in C, yes
23:06:44 <Bike> well, probably
23:06:44 <Lumpio-> Most actually usable compiled languages at least.
23:06:45 <kmc> Lumpio-: I don't know about that. Not Haskell or OCaml, for sure
23:07:03 <kmc> I wouldn't call libc the "runtime", that would be like crt*.o and libgcc.a
23:07:07 <Fiora> and C++ is in C++ and I guess java is written in java?
23:07:24 <Lumpio-> Java isn't compiled to native code so I doubt the JVM is written in Java
23:07:25 <Bike> i... actually don't know what jvms are written in usually
23:07:27 <kmc> you can build a C program without libc and ~all of the "language features" still work
23:07:29 <Lumpio-> It's possible if you JIT it in advance but
23:07:38 <Bike> kmc: i don't even know what libgcc is
23:07:42 <kmc> sometimes Java is compiled to native code
23:07:43 <kmc> but not usually
23:08:01 <kmc> Bike: well for example, if you use uint64_t on a 32-bit machine, it needs to call some function to add double-size integers
23:08:06 <Bike> oh. that stuff.
23:08:13 <kmc> so there are things like that which look like primitives but actually call into functions
23:08:13 <Fiora> __udivdi3 and friends
23:08:14 <Bike> the not-in-libc-but-needs-software-support-stuff.
23:08:32 <shachaf> what counts as the "runtime" is a bit of a definitions game
23:08:37 <Bike> such as what kmc just said?
23:08:56 <Lumpio-> But what primitives are there if you don't use libc nor the magic builtins
23:09:10 <Lumpio-> To make it simpler, say you only call functions you wrote yourself.
23:09:17 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:09:19 <Bike> on a 32-bit machine
23:09:36 <Fiora> Bike: that's an implementation detail though, I guess? like, gcc could inline it if it wanted, right?
23:09:46 <Lumpio-> It could and it probably does
23:10:26 <Bike> it could, there are other routines though sometimes
23:10:38 <kmc> it does sometimes
23:10:45 <Fiora> complex number support, right?
23:10:56 <Bike> plus inlining can lead to code bloat bla bla bla
23:10:58 <kmc> on some machines floating point will be a library call
23:11:01 <kmc> or integer multiply even
23:11:01 <Lumpio-> On an actual computer is it the job of the operating system to zero out .bss and whatnot
23:11:21 <Lumpio-> I've only looked at full disassemblies of executables for microcontrollers
23:11:22 <kmc> or rather, anonymous mappings are zeroed by default
23:11:33 <Lumpio-> Where GCC emits a small piece of code to do that because there's no OS.
23:11:37 <kmc> for security -- you can't allow leftover data from some other program
23:11:38 <Lumpio-> ...or I guess that could come from some sort of library.
23:12:03 <zzo38> How does it zero out the BSS? Is there hardware support for doing that?
23:12:16 <zzo38> Or does it have to write every byte to zero individually?
23:12:23 <Bike> doesn't it just map a pre-zeroed page if possible, or whatever
23:12:30 <Lumpio-> memset() and friends are usually optimized to ridiculous levels
23:12:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:12:45 <Lumpio-> There's probably an assembly implementation for all popular platforms.
23:12:57 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:12:59 <Lumpio-> It rarely goes byte by byte, on a 64-bit machine you can do at least 8 bytes at a time
23:13:13 <Lumpio-> And I wouldn't be surprised if x86 had some sort of block fill extension.
23:13:30 -!- conehead has joined.
23:13:31 <kmc> Lumpio-: you'll find various unrolled SSE memsets and such
23:13:40 <zzo38> Is there hardware support for the entire RAM at once in something outside of the CPU?
23:13:52 <Bike> why would you want to zero all of ram at once
23:13:52 <kmc> I think Ivy Bridge has a special optimization such that the lowly REP STOSB is actually really fast
23:14:04 <kmc> I know they have it for memcpy() / REP MOVSB, but with some wacky restrictions
23:14:08 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, or a very large block such as 1GB, or something like that
23:14:21 <kmc> Bike: yeah, you can map a copy-on-write zeroed page
23:14:40 <kmc> then if processes reserve lots of .bss and never use it, they don't take up physical memory
23:14:43 <kmc> I think that's typically done
23:15:03 <zzo38> For example, if the loader is in ROM and the data it keeps track of is stored in registers, then you might want to clear the entire RAM at once before the program is loaded.
23:15:20 <Lumpio-> zzo38: On what kind of 1980 single-tasking computer?
23:15:20 <kmc> (well, you could do that anyway, but this way they can allocate a lot of .bss and read zeroes from it and still not take up physical memory)
23:17:07 <Bike> Lumpio-: are you not used to zzo
23:17:19 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I am not really thinking of a specific kind of computer, but rather if there is a DRAM or something that has a pin for such a function, so that a computer can be made having a BIOS that can do this.
23:17:47 -!- carado has joined.
23:19:27 <Lumpio-> Bike: But I like talking with him!
23:19:39 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Yes, I'm sure it's possible to do.
23:19:58 <zzo38> Do you know which ones have such things?
23:20:01 <Bike> you just occasionally get this
23:20:08 <Lumpio-> I didn't say I knew of any implementation
23:23:15 <zzo38> I would like to know which RAM chips do this so that I can make something using this.
23:23:53 <Lumpio-> Not sure if any existing chips have this feature.
23:24:06 <Lumpio-> All you really need is a thing to pull all select lines high at once
23:24:40 <Lumpio-> Usually there's no direct access to the select lines.
23:26:41 <Lumpio-> Hmm, although is the DRAM controller itself on the motherboard on modern computers
23:26:47 <Lumpio-> Instead of the chips themselves
23:26:57 <Lumpio-> If that's so all you need is a soldering iron and a steady hand!
23:27:08 <Bike> i feel like zzo should get a few fpgas to mess with
23:27:12 <Lumpio-> ...and probably magic wire that doesn't introduce extra inductance/capacitance to the really high frequency bus
23:28:14 <HackEgo> olist (909): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
23:29:33 <Fiora> I think RAM controllers have been on cpus for a while now?
23:32:31 <kmc> yeah for a long time
23:33:16 <pikhq> Lumpio-: The RAM bus is not high frequency.
23:34:47 <Lumpio-> Fiora: Well, outside the RAM modules themselves at any rate.
23:35:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:36:22 <pikhq> "PC3-6400" is a mere 100 MHz, it just has the bandwidth of a hypothetical PC-100 module clocked at 6.4 GHz.
23:36:38 <HackEgo> olist 909: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
23:37:29 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, the RAM *bus* is at 400MHz.
23:37:42 <pikhq> But that's feeding into 100MHz chips.
23:38:08 <pikhq> Still, not the highest frequency bus.
23:39:22 <shachaf> Sgeo..........................................
23:39:53 <Bike> hey, he tried, shachaf.
23:39:58 <pikhq> I think in terms of clock rate USB 2.0 is higher freq?
23:40:49 <Sgeo> At least I indicated which one so you didn't think there were two updates within 8 minutes of each other
23:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> humble bundle: now dropping the pay what you want component
23:47:47 <Bike> so we only pay what we don't want?
23:51:35 * oerjan feels thoroughly `olisted
23:52:12 <kmc> i will pay what Phantom_Hoover wants
23:53:39 <Bike> the elliott system
23:53:46 * oerjan is wondering what they'll do when the protection spell runs out (and the spare in the staff)
23:53:50 <Bike> also: it's weird to realize that horse_ebooks is actually a very successful spam marketer
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23:54:26 <shachaf> imo someone should make nlab_ebooks
23:55:02 <Bike> kmc: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92seuPm161r9hh3yo1_400.jpg update re: gay cuttlefish
23:55:20 <mnoqy> those aren't cuttlefish
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23:55:44 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you happen to know when super mega updates usually happen
23:55:55 <shachaf> what time zone is johnny smash in
23:56:01 <Bike> about nine pounds
23:56:05 <mnoqy> i think he lives in arizona?
23:56:18 * oerjan swats Bike, disturbingly gently -----###
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00:24:45 <zzo38> Can you make bets on what happen next in Dungeons&Dragons game I play?
00:25:17 <madbr> Is it like 6th edition
00:25:25 <Bike> http://imgur.com/EU4mHlT this is me
00:25:51 <zzo38> madbr: Do you mean the Dungeons&Dragons game? No, it is 3.5 edition.
00:26:49 <zzo38> Session 38 is the latest one played and recorded.
00:27:21 <nooodl^> where are these recorded zzo38
00:27:38 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
00:27:46 <zzo38> nooodl^: There it is.
00:28:04 <madbr> bike : the missing link!
00:28:16 <Bike> i lied i'm a bike.
00:28:34 <madbr> looks like a gorilla tf
00:28:55 <zzo38> nooodl^: I have told them to add this for all of the `*list so you can write `? to check the informations. (If there is some missing, you can add some.)
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00:29:17 <ion> Oversight: Thank you for volunteering, citizen. http://youtu.be/RIuf1V1FhpY
00:30:41 <Bike> lol, benefit fraud.
00:32:11 <zzo38> Now maybe you can try to bet on this game?
00:32:19 <Bike> hahaha, the russia bit
00:32:48 <kmc> Bike: pls to tag nsfw
00:33:02 <Bike> was hoping you remembered the previous gay cuttlefish
00:33:26 <kmc> i don't remember gay cuttlefish, just crossdressing ones
00:33:31 <kmc> but I will look at this picture later
00:38:37 <madbr> zzo : ok how about, hmm
00:38:50 <madbr> dungeon crawl, a short fight, 1 x dead player
00:40:38 <zzo38> madbr: I doubt it, but you can bet how you want to. However, I have meant more specific kind of things, and mainly I mean noncombat things
00:41:16 <HackEgo> smlist (418): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
00:41:44 <madbr> zzo38 : no idea how you guys play so I'm going cold here :3
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00:42:16 <zzo38> madbr: it is recorded; you can read all of it (and maybe that gives you a clue?)
00:42:46 <madbr> oh, it's over IRC?
00:43:22 <zzo38> No. It is played without a computer, although I type everything on the computer afterward, including character sheets, footnotes, and a story text like as if it is a story in some book or something like that.
00:47:04 <madbr> kjugobe gets turned into a...
00:47:25 <zzo38> It is sort of like a play by mail chess, except that it isn't play by mail, and it isn't chess, and it involves far more sophisticated strategies than chess.
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00:50:01 <madbr> hm, what could he get transformed into
00:50:01 <Lumpio-> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex <- the asperger is strong in this
00:50:36 <zzo38> madbr: An elipsis?
00:50:55 <madbr> that sounds like it would hurt
00:50:59 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, I am with Asperger, so I suppose that is why. I can improve it later of course
00:51:21 <Lumpio-> So am I, on paper at least
00:52:11 <kmc> and half the rest of this channel
00:52:48 <Bike> mood disorder superiority. down with personality disorders, bow before the superior disease
00:53:08 <zzo38> I should improve it later to fill in some omitted stuff and improve to make it a bit more like some novel, but still the same things as it is currently written rather than different.
00:53:59 <madbr> the more typical d&d transforms are, what
00:54:30 <madbr> undead? werewolfs? various mythical beasts?
00:54:53 <zzo38> Well, yes, I suppose those are the more typical ones.
00:55:17 <zzo38> But sometimes there is also temporary transformation.
00:55:38 <Bike> oh shit, autism is developmental, not personality
00:55:50 <Bike> what was i thinking...
00:56:25 <Fiora> Bike: and gosh, ~some~ of us are PDD-NOS, not AS!
00:56:45 <kmc> you're all special to me <3
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00:56:52 <Bike> now bow down before me
00:57:00 <Bike> uh did i say something bad
00:57:04 <mnoqy> oh looks like shachaf beat me to the punch
00:57:44 <mnoqy> don't worry it's lumpio's fault not yours
00:58:42 <zzo38> Lumpio-: But I don't really know how to read it to know it is asperger; can you tell me the example of how you will see it is asperger is strong in this?
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01:01:28 <zzo38> What aura is that? I don't see any aura.
01:04:18 <kmc> this is painful
01:08:40 <Lumpio-> Maybe you haven't trained enough yet
01:08:50 <kmc> Lumpio-: stop trolling zzo38
01:08:56 <kmc> zzo38: he's messing with you
01:09:10 <Lumpio-> But he's constantly trolling everybody
01:09:25 <kmc> i don't think so
01:09:39 <kmc> but anyway, when zzo38 talks we don't have 3 people part immediately
01:13:36 <kmc> 83 files changed, 1005 insertions(+), 932 deletions(-)
01:13:40 <kmc> welp this is going to be a pain to review
01:13:42 <kmc> and I'm not even done yet
01:23:21 <kmc> ok well anyway
01:24:10 <kmc> Lumpio-: I think people would appreciate it if you refrain from painting with broad strokes like this
01:24:41 <kmc> I don't think what you said was horrible or anything, but it's not what we want #esoteric to be
01:29:00 <Lumpio-> good grief did I hurt the aspies' feelings now?
01:30:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
01:30:13 <kmc> Lumpio-: don't talk like that.
01:31:14 <kmc> come back when you give a shit about your fellow human beings, I guess
01:31:15 -!- kmc has kicked Lumpio- Lumpio-.
01:31:19 <Bike> c'mon man, are you going to stuff people into lockers
01:31:28 -!- kmc has set channel mode: -o kmc.
01:31:57 <Bike> i'd say i don't get how people can seriously talk like that after having pop culture down their throats, but it's so common, so
01:32:02 <Bike> plus i probably do it sometimes.
01:34:52 <kmc> what's it got to do with pop culture
01:35:20 <Bike> well just "did i hurt your feelings", i kind of automatically hear that in the voice of the bully character in Interchangeable School Drama Show
01:37:50 <Sgeo> lambeth sounds like lambda
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01:43:24 <Lumpio-> Err, yeah, I think I'm done with this channel then.
01:43:31 <Lumpio-> Turned out to be #dramacentral, would never have believed.
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01:58:43 <Bike> kmc: http://blogs.plos.org/biologue/2013/08/08/what-does-peer-review-mean-when-applied-to-computer-code/ your employer is p. cool
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02:26:36 <Sgeo> shachaf: this may interest you, (Word of Burlew)
02:26:36 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15709954#post15709954
02:29:06 <shachaf> has oerjan seen it (and FireFly)
02:31:46 <shachaf> Sgeo: What happens to threads past page 6?
02:32:28 <oerjan> _now_ i've seen it hth
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02:40:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: did you know there's a post where he writes "Windstriker charges, striking V and trapping him between Miko and himself."
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03:35:30 <shachaf> Hmm, the ICFP contest looks like fun.
04:09:06 <doesthiswork> the nsa has a new website http://nsa.gov1.info/data/index.html
04:32:12 <Bike> @oeis 3,8,6,20,24
04:32:14 <lambdabot> Pisano periods (or Pisano numbers): period of Fibonacci numbers mod n.[1,3,8...
04:33:01 <Bike> "Pisano periods are named after Leonardo Pisano, better known as Fibonacci." pff.
04:46:47 <coppro> I feel like I'm missing something when trying to read XKCD
05:02:38 <kmc> i feel like randall munroe is missing something when trying to write XKCD
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05:11:23 <fizzie> Unsurprisingly, wakeup from suspend doesn't work on my Linux desktop. (Black screen, no answer to SSH; keyboard leds do react, though.)
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05:13:15 <zzo38> shachaf: What is this year's ICFP contest? I have seen the previous ones in Wikipedia.
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05:14:40 <fizzie> (Huh. It answers to ping; curious that not SSH.)
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05:15:17 <zzo38> I have had suspend not work properly on various computers regardless of operating system.
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05:18:23 <fizzie> It is certainly a thing that happens.
05:21:19 <fizzie> (At least wake-on-lan works.)
05:21:36 <zzo38> Then use that. Does wake on the telephone rings work?
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05:24:51 <fizzie> I don't have a land line, or a modem in this computer.
05:28:26 <zzo38> You don't need any of those to use the wake on telephone feature.
05:28:55 <fizzie> How does it work, then?
05:29:31 <fizzie> (Another thing that did not work: alsa-utils tried to execute /usr/sbin/alsactl (to restore mixer levels) before /usr was mounted. (I don't know why, because the initscript has Required-Start: $localfs, and it's much later than the mounting in init script order.))
05:29:38 <zzo38> There is one of the pins in the serial port which tells the computer if the telephone rings, so connect something else to that port instead.
05:32:39 <fizzie> I don't recall seeing that feature mentioned in the BIOS setup.
05:34:20 <zzo38> Which people in here have told about what dream they have? I want to know some things such as how commonly things resembling different kinds of logic (or no kinds of logic) applies, and a few others. A few times it has happened when in the dream there was something where linear logic seemed to apply, even though it isn't a case where that would be the case in real life.
05:34:36 <zzo38> (I think this was before I knew about linear logic, actually.)
05:36:46 <zzo38> Who (and how many) of you have done this?
05:47:46 <zzo38> Or do you even understand what I am talking about at all?
06:14:48 <kmc> wake-on-van
06:15:02 <Bike> impact in three. brace
06:15:16 <kmc> woop woop pull up pull up
06:16:08 <zzo38> I think I do not understand you either.
06:17:52 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> I think I do not understand you either.
06:17:57 <HackEgo> 1085) <zzo38> I think I do not understand you either.
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11:01:20 <fizzie> "-- binaural sound, wave field synthesis systems, and sound source localization using GPGPU --" hmm, maybe I should go and have a listen.
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11:19:45 <elliott> did lumpio piss everyone off again
11:20:36 <elliott> I like the part where he rejoined just to tell us he's never coming back ever.
11:26:17 <fizzie> Oh, there's been some drrama?
11:28:27 <fizzie> elliott: Also to tell us to purchase some guys, I guess?
11:30:27 <elliott> drama, n. when someone doesn't like what you're doing
11:30:53 <elliott> dramacentral, n. place where someone tells you they don't like what you're doing
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11:59:53 <elliott> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html oh my god
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12:06:53 <ais523> hmm, so it seems that this book has been checked out 17 times, from 1971 to 1984
12:07:00 <ais523> and then not again until 2013, which was me
12:07:18 <ais523> (in other words, this book has gone my entire lifetime without anyone reading it)
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12:09:43 <Roujo> Before you leave again =P
12:09:49 <Roujo> What book is it? =)
12:09:50 <fizzie> A person with lesser politeness levels might say that it's the likely fate of your (or anyone else's) thesis, too.
12:09:50 <ais523> this connection is really unreliable
12:10:01 <ais523> "Switching theory" by Miller, volume 2
12:10:21 <fizzie> I suppose it's about theory of switching and not about switching to (some other) theory?
12:10:30 <ais523> fizzie: it's actually about digital circuits
12:10:43 <fizzie> Closer to the former, anyway.
12:10:55 <ais523> aha, the full name is "Switching Theory, Vol. II: Sequential Circuits and Machines"
12:11:36 <ais523> let's see what Google thought it was… "Switching theory. Vol. 2, Sequential circuits and machines"
12:11:46 <ais523> (Google had to figure it out indirectly from citations)
12:12:54 <ais523> there was some debate over what its name was, getting a physical copy of it seemed to be one way to settle that
12:13:12 <ais523> also, there's still a punched card in here that someone was using as a bookmark
12:15:25 <ais523> 12/3, 11/9, 12/5, 11/5, 0/4/8, 5, 1, 5/8, 5, 1, 4/8, 3/8, 4/8, 1, 4/8
12:15:58 <ais523> also "LINE$51*51<#@1@" is printed on it, which appears to be a translation of the punches (because single numbers represent themselves literally on punched cards)
12:16:04 <ais523> I might have the 12s and 11s backwards, they aren't labeled
12:16:36 <ais523> oh, the first 4/8 is actually 11/4/8
12:18:25 <ais523> *single digits represent themselves literally
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12:23:03 <ais523> this book seems to be full of a bunch of formal definitions, trying to define what it means for a circuit to be speed-independent
12:23:35 <ais523> that's probably why nobody reads it any more; speed-independence is the assumption that your components are slow but your wires transmit information instantaneously
12:23:43 <ais523> and that turned out to be the opposite of how electronics works in practice
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12:29:28 <Roujo> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
12:29:28 <fizzie> They typically do have a printed version of the line for human readers, it seems.
12:30:08 <Roujo> I still haven't figured out how to make a non-trivial lol-my-source-file-is-empty quine yet
12:30:09 <ais523> that doesn't seem like a particularly useful punched card, anyway
12:30:30 <Roujo> But this guy did *so much better*
12:30:41 <Roujo> (Granted, I never really spent much time trying, but eh)
12:30:42 <ais523> Roujo: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1icrny/an_uroboros_program_with_50_programming_languages/cb3vtuq
12:30:47 <ais523> me explaining how to write a quine
12:30:58 <ais523> a rather verbose, unobfuscated one
12:31:12 <Roujo> Thanks. I'd rather not read it, though.
12:31:18 <Roujo> I know the information is easy to find
12:31:29 <Roujo> I just want to figure it out on my own =)
12:32:02 <fizzie> 50 languages is quite an impressive number.
12:32:28 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps in terms of the time it'd take to write them all
12:32:47 <ais523> it's not that impressive in terms of quine-writing; when we did botloops back in #esoteric, only one of the bots needed to do anything other than print statements
12:33:12 <katla> yeah sigfpe show how to do this
12:33:23 <katla> once you get the idea adding another language is just a matter of filling out a form
12:33:26 <ais523> writing a quine that wraps itself in print statements for some other language isn't noticeably harder than writing an ordinary quine
12:33:36 <ais523> katla: yeah, at least if the other language has string literals
12:33:42 <ais523> if it doesn't, e.g. INTERCAL, things get a bit harder
12:33:57 <ais523> not /much/ harder, but somewhat
12:35:57 <ais523> J = Y NAND K; K = X NAND J; Q = (X OR J) AND (Y OR K)
12:36:22 <Roujo> And the actual source is formatted as Ouroboros
12:36:30 <ais523> Roujo: again, not so hard
12:36:45 <Roujo> ais523: Depends on your level =P
12:37:04 <ais523> perhaps I should write a quine-loop generator that lets you choose which languages to go via, and what shape the source should be formatted as
12:37:10 <Roujo> "It's not that hard to fly, really", said the butterfly to the caterpillar
12:37:24 <Roujo> AKA I'm not up there yet =P
12:39:01 <katla> Roujo, http://blog.sigfpe.com/2011/01/quine-central.html
12:39:25 <Jafet> ais523: you mean like https://github.com/mame/quine-relay/blob/master/src/code-gen.rb
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12:40:07 <ais523_> so it turns out that, the thing everyone cites this book for
12:40:11 <ais523_> isn't actually in this book
12:40:48 <ais523_> unless it's that boolean expression I posted above, and I don't think it is
12:42:28 <Jafet> By everyone do you mean a few dozen people somewhere
12:43:03 <Jafet> Also, a proper cyclic quine http://www.ioccc.org/2000/dhyang.c
12:43:18 <fizzie> That might've been for vol 1.
12:43:41 <fizzie> Google Scholar's citation counts are kind of approximative.
12:45:09 <oklopol> so last month i wanted to cite in my phd that limit sets of cellular automata can be pi^0_1 hard
12:45:17 <oklopol> and everyone cites an article by hurd
12:45:46 <oklopol> i checked, and it indeed claims the result, but proves a much simpler thing, completely missing the point
12:46:38 <ais523_> fizzie: it's cited more than that under different names
12:46:52 <oklopol> not that people care much because everyone thinks they can easily prove it
12:47:17 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you prove it to be not true?
12:47:17 <ais523_> bleh, proving a negative is hard, and proving that something isn't in a book is also hard
12:47:20 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
12:47:32 <fizzie> Aw. I was trying to jump to the punchline.
12:47:59 <ais523> let me try to analyze that expression I posted above, that might be it
12:48:07 <ais523> J = Y NAND K; K = X NAND J; Q = (X OR J) AND (Y OR K)
12:48:20 <ais523> J <= Y NAND K; K <= X NAND J; Q <= (X OR J) AND (Y OR K)
12:48:22 <oklopol> there was no punchline, i just find it funny that no one checks these things before citing.
12:48:32 <ais523> make sure to use the right sort of operator, ais523!
12:48:35 -!- ap3x has joined.
12:48:38 <Jafet> They do. They check the paper that they got it from.
12:48:55 <oklopol> and cite the original without reading it
12:49:02 <katla> the punchline was given to us in private communication
12:49:26 <ais523> let's see… if X and Y are both 0, then J and K are both 1, so Q is 1
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12:50:03 <ais523> if X is 1 and Y is 0, then J is 1, so K is 0, and so Q is 0
12:50:06 <ais523> yeah, this isn't a C-element
12:50:25 <boily> good high-scoring-scrabble-letters morning!
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12:51:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:51:30 <boily> ais523: good fternoon to you too.
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12:51:54 <boily> Roujo: had my regular morning bixi ride. it's way too humid outside for my personal tastes and confort zone.
12:52:18 <Roujo> Getting a Bixi key *would* be a good idea, wouldn't it =P
12:52:31 <Roujo> Either that or getting my actual bike to Lachine =P
12:52:43 <ais523> and yeah, that's the only two-input one-output circuit in this chapter of the book
12:53:05 <fizzie> Is "Bixi" some sort of a bike-share thing with a fashionable name?
12:53:22 <fizzie> Bike: They're sharing you.
12:53:46 <metasepia> EFHK 091220Z 20012KT 9999 BKN023 23/17 Q1008 NOSIG
12:54:38 <metasepia> CYUL 091200Z 00000KT 12SM FEW007 OVC015 21/19 A2987 RMK SF1SC8 SF TR SLP113 DENSITY ALT 900FT
12:54:49 <ais523> I bet Sutherland is laughing at all of academia right now (at least, the very small slice of it that cares about asynchronous circuits)
12:54:54 <katla> what is the problem
12:54:56 <boily> is the II out yet?
12:55:07 <fizzie> Huh, only 17? It's been very tropical in here.
12:56:41 <boily> 23 °C with dew point at 17 translates to 69% rel. humidity.
12:56:55 <fizzie> boily: Yes, but relative humidity here for the last two days: http://cdn.fmi.fi/weather-observations/products/graphs/observations-101005-13-fi.png
12:57:56 -!- katla has left ("Leaving").
12:58:12 <fizzie> Sometimes it feels like that a 3am.
12:58:24 <boily> I think Finland is a subaquatic hoax, like Atlantis or something.
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13:11:21 <boily> I just booted alpine linux into virtualbox for fun. that things boot frighteningly fast.
13:12:07 <boily> s/things boot/thing boots/
13:12:24 <Roujo> Powerthirst! Makes your linux box boot abnormally fast!
13:13:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:14:16 <boily> Roujo: I prefer terrifying boot times over weird and unusual ones.
13:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> sound the alarm, your boot's about to get uncomfortably fast
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13:20:40 <ais523_> it could be harder to track down the actual source of the Muller C-element than I thoguht
13:25:37 <boily> oerjan: close an eye.
13:26:20 <oerjan> nope, ais523 still has two nicks
13:26:44 <ais523> yeah, the connection's really bad here
13:26:51 <ais523> ais523_ is a wired connection, which is /normally/ more reliable
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13:27:28 <boily> oerjan: shake your monitor so that with retinal persistence the double aises merge into one?
13:28:06 <oerjan> my connection is also shitty today. :(
13:28:15 <oerjan> although tmux masks that for you.
13:28:51 <oerjan> well, mostly horribly laggy.
13:31:28 <Roujo> dat ludicrous booting speed
13:31:56 <boily> I boot columbia. that wintery booting speed.
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13:40:25 <ais523> haha, according to the ACM, one of my papers (when read aloud) is 901165:12 minutes long
13:40:43 <ais523> err, hmm, that's not an MP3, it's an MP4
13:40:47 <ais523> a 901165:12 minute video, then
13:41:20 <ais523> I still don't really think this makes much sense in any direction, though…
13:42:17 <boily> ~eval 901165 / 60 / 24 / 365.25
13:43:56 <fizzie> ais523: Where do they have those numbers? The generic ACM Digital Library paper-page doesn't seem to say anything about length.
13:44:18 <fizzie> boily: Leap years, man!
13:44:24 <ais523> fizzie: on the page about the author
13:44:37 <fizzie> boily: Or, rather, "proper leap years for centuries, man".
13:45:34 <fizzie> ais523: A colleague has one paper of "2411109:31 MIN", and another of "398752:6 MIN".
13:46:19 <fizzie> The one that's 2411109:31 minutes is 23:57 minutes when opened in their video viewer.
13:46:33 <ais523> hmm… is it an actual video?
13:46:48 <fizzie> ais523: It's the slides of the corresponding conference presentation.
13:46:57 <fizzie> ais523: Presumably audio too, I don't have headphones right now.
13:47:14 <fizzie> ais523: But it started with the last slide of the previous presenter, so I suppose it's from their stream.
13:47:18 <oerjan> ~eval 901165 / 60 / 24 / 365.2425
13:48:21 <fizzie> I don't think IEEE conference presentations are published anywhere like this.
13:48:39 <oerjan> fizzie: but i don't have a garden! (knock on wood)
13:49:34 <boily> fizzie: I don't like leap years. I'm a proponent for adjusting Earth's revolution period to have a nice, round integer. like, have a 512-day year.
13:49:50 <Roujo> boily: I like that idea
13:50:07 <oerjan> boily: that means some seriously long winters, mind you
13:50:23 <fizzie> Oh, the ICASSP presentations are, at some superlectures.com site. Curious.
13:50:35 <boily> oerjan: don't mind. as Candians, we're used to winters.
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13:51:28 <ais523> hmm… I have a good suspicion of what the /actual/ source is, but apparently there's only one copy in existence and it's at the University of Illinois
13:51:47 <Roujo> We could just make it so that the revolution time = the rotation time
13:51:58 <Roujo> Which would probably get rid of winters altogether
13:52:05 <boily> holy centrifugal forces, batman!
13:52:38 <Roujo> Sure. But think about it.
13:52:44 <oerjan> those tidelocked planets are not pleasant
13:52:50 <Roujo> No more sleet, no more shoveling the snow...
13:53:06 <oerjan> Roujo: you're forgetting the side _away_ from the sun hth
13:53:07 <Roujo> No more fallen leaves to clean up
13:53:59 <Roujo> Okay, so we make it rotate the other way
13:54:04 <boily> I think the only lifeforms that would be left are going to be the usual post-nuclear cockroaches, and some megasquirrels.
13:54:30 <Roujo> Better yet, make it rotate so fast that the concept of night/day becomes irrelevant
13:54:47 <Roujo> So that the whole day is light-ish
13:54:59 <Roujo> 50 shades of, well, shades
13:55:06 <oerjan> Roujo: that would also make gravitation irrelevant hth
13:55:20 <Roujo> Just make the planet bigger, then.
13:55:47 <oerjan> i'm not sure that will work without turning it into a neutron star?
13:55:49 <Roujo> Also, I'm pretty sure you mean otoh, not hth =P
13:55:57 <boily> Roujo: are you subtly pointing that we should, like, live on something not entirely unlike a magnetar?
13:56:12 <Roujo> >implying I'm implying stuff
13:56:18 <oerjan> Roujo is secretly an invading chellah
13:56:19 <boily> otoh, hth is better than otoh, if twh. nah. hth. hand.
13:56:26 <metasepia> Chellah, (4'D)) or Sala Colonia is a necropolis and complex of ancient Roman Mauretania Tingitana and medieval ruins at the outskirts of Rabat, Morocco.
13:56:37 <Roujo> I AM AN INVADING NECROPOLIS
13:57:24 <boily> `addquote <Roujo> I AM AN INVADING NECROPOLIS... ALL BOW BEFORE MY... erm... WALLS?... NECROBUILDINGS?
13:57:28 <HackEgo> 1086) <Roujo> I AM AN INVADING NECROPOLIS... ALL BOW BEFORE MY... erm... WALLS?... NECROBUILDINGS?
13:57:40 <oerjan> (this is one of those books i've conveniently read only through wikipedia's plot summary)
13:59:41 <oerjan> boily: dragon's egg hth
14:00:07 <metasepia> A Dragon egg is a summoning pet egg that requires 99 Summoning to obtain.
14:00:31 <boily> oerjan: there you go. Roujo's has a power of OVER 99 SUMMONING!
14:00:40 <Jafet> oerjan: this is a "hard sci fi" book so the book is probably not more entertaining than the plot summary
14:02:13 <boily> Roujo: artistic mathematic license.
14:02:59 <Roujo> "It's been revoked"
14:03:24 <boily> and, I'm an engineer. it's only an approximative 1% error. nothing to worry about.
14:03:56 <Jafet> Your error of 1% has an error of 1%
14:04:07 <Roujo> I'm thinking of becoming an engineer.
14:04:13 <Roujo> Also, about error margins
14:04:32 <Roujo> Say you have a reading of 40%, ±1%
14:04:42 <boily> the most important thing about error margins is the stroke width in points in your .eps figures.
14:04:57 <Roujo> Is the range 39%-41%? Or is it 39,6%-40,4%?
14:05:00 <Roujo> HOW DO YOU KNOWWWWWW
14:05:02 <oerjan> boily: i said "dragon's" not dragon hth
14:05:11 <boily> ~duck dragon's egg
14:05:12 <metasepia> Dragon's Egg is a hard science fiction novel written by Robert L. Forward and published in 1980.
14:05:21 <boily> bleh. relevant info.
14:05:22 <Roujo> Sounds relevant-er
14:05:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relevant: not found
14:05:52 <Jafet> This is where you give up and draw your graph in excel and say "the standard deviation is negligible"
14:06:05 <Roujo> Speaking of standard deviations
14:06:19 <Roujo> The stats on my final WebDev class were interesting
14:06:49 <Roujo> StdDev was 40% or something insane like that
14:09:03 <boily> Roujo: t'étudies où, si je peux me permettre de poser la question?
14:09:16 <oerjan> `run echo "The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller." >wisdom/'relevant info'
14:09:39 <Roujo> boily: Je n'étudies plus, c'est ça l'ennui =P
14:09:52 <oklopol> oh i know that one it's some kind of ring
14:09:56 <Roujo> `run forrest | run
14:09:58 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found \ bash: forrest: command not found
14:10:50 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
14:11:07 <Roujo> `run cat /dev/urandom > wisdom/'irrelevant info'
14:11:16 <HackEgo> bash: line 1: 287 File size limit exceededcat /dev/urandom > wisdom/'irrelevant info'
14:11:50 <Roujo> Is there a way to limit it?
14:11:57 <oerjan> Jafet: don't revert unless you're sure your change actually went through
14:12:07 <HackEgo> The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
14:12:13 <oerjan> or else it will revert something completely unrelated
14:12:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
14:12:20 <boily> like relevant information.
14:12:54 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/irrelevant info
14:12:56 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/irrelevant info: No such file or directory
14:13:12 <oerjan> ok i guess that worked
14:13:21 <Roujo> Now, say I want to put random garbage in that file
14:13:33 <Roujo> Without making it wayyy too big for its own good
14:13:39 <ais523> yay, it seems that archive.org digitized a copy
14:13:45 <ais523> and none of the usual search engines knew about it
14:13:48 <Roujo> How would I go about and do that?
14:13:49 <oerjan> Roujo: we already have a wisdom entry with random garbage.
14:13:56 <HackEgo> .SaaO>rqn&t1VVnv& UoSL]cM~, Bl>P6
14:14:06 <oerjan> also, it's special cased
14:14:12 <HackEgo> vyڜc4"lc|.ZϝE~8PHi "THbBFUMXæo]0bL[s*)}v\@nrt"+kݫ6mANŷ+HP.2,v(/qv?d}o\zP.`1%N$L'1ߴhvSk935xd>U
14:14:17 <ais523> there's widespread disagreement on which year it was published in, though
14:14:41 <boily> «â-ÛvyÚ õÈcø». truer words were never spoken.
14:14:45 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wisdom: No such file or directory
14:14:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
14:15:26 <oerjan> (it _used_ to be an actual link to /dev/urandom, but that broke things horribly whenever people tried to make a search or digest of the directory)
14:16:10 <Roujo> I really wonder why I can't see special chars on Freenode =/
14:16:19 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
14:16:37 <Roujo> All I see are those neat question marks in diamonds
14:16:49 <Roujo> And yet I'm configured as UTF-8
14:16:55 <Roujo> Maybe my bouncer isn't
14:16:59 <Roujo> That would explain it
14:19:50 <Jafet> `gccrun for (int i=0;i<99;i++) printf("\xe2\x96%c", 133+sin(i/4)*4);
14:19:51 * boily lightly smacks Roujo with a standards compliant mako shark to compel him to unicodify his whole system as a respectable person is wont to do.
14:19:53 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c:19: error: ‘for’ loop initial declarations are only allowed in C99 mode \ /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c:19: note: use option -std=c99 or -std=gnu99 to compile your code \ /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c:19: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of b
14:20:09 <Jafet> `gccrun int i; for (i=0;i<99;i++) printf("\xe2\x96%c", 133+sin(i/4.)*4);
14:20:12 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.Jc3ohCYR/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.Jc3ohCYR/command.c:19: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘sin’ \ /tmp/ccyVF3XB.o: In function `main': \ command.c:(.text+0x2e): undefined reference to `sin' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
14:20:25 <Roujo> Alright, I think I fixed it
14:20:29 * ais523 puts a link to the archive.org page in the citation itself, so that other people can actually find a copy
14:21:24 <boily> speaking of archives, I should keep a log somewhere for every object and technique I use to bop people on the head.
14:21:57 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
14:21:59 <HackEgo> Ss#KDa{a}[VqkI \ &56}r.f$p=;iWJ2.LLB݄|MSVCC:pKYNkqD7;ZÞ@߅HHS&a&.)i.*O7-?صgaT+ҡ/w>I5@S{
14:24:19 <ais523_> oh, gah; it's the wrong article :(
14:25:21 <ais523_> luckily the right one seems to be there too
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14:27:39 <boily> hm. I should hi people when they are actually connected.
14:27:53 <boily> oh well. time to clean my desk and move...
14:27:54 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
14:28:04 <fizzie> ais523_: That ("one copy" "in Illinois") is probably why everyone just copies the citation.
14:28:04 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:28:38 <ais523_> fizzie: well, yeah, and some people were copying the wrong citation
14:29:02 <ais523_> or, like, the book that everyone was copying was a different one, the University of Birmingham has a copy
14:29:24 <ais523_> but it hadn't been used for almost 30 years so it took them a while to find it
14:30:00 <ais523_> (actually, what happened is that I went to the library, they checked their records and said that they had a copy but they had to retrieve it from storage and asked me to come back the next day)
14:30:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:31:28 <ais523_> anyway, it seems that the University of Illinois actually lent their copy to archive.org to digitize
14:31:37 <ais523_> presumably because they were fed up with everyone asking them for it
14:31:46 <ais523_> (their copy of the original source, that is)
14:33:11 <ais523_> hmm... this PDF crashes Acrobat, should I be scared?
14:33:20 <ais523_> if you scroll too quickly, that is
14:33:26 <ais523_> Evince can handle it but it takes like 20 seconds to render each page
14:35:41 <ais523_> also half the pages are useless because it's only printed on one side of each page and archive decided to digitize the back of each page as well as the front
14:36:04 <ais523_> I guess that makes sense, it's probably faster than employing someone to check the back of each page to ensure there's nothing important written there
14:37:08 <ais523_> elliott: basically there are two relevant books; the first one, everyone has been copying other people's citations of, and nobody bothers to check that it actually contains the information that's being cited (it doesn't)
14:37:25 <ais523_> and the second, which I suspect contains the information, there's only one copy in existence, at the university of illinois
14:37:29 <ais523_> but luckily archive.org digitized it
14:37:37 <ais523_> to determine whether it actually does
14:37:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
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14:38:38 <ais523_> also it appears to have been typewritten rather than typeset, with anything the typewriter couldn't handle drawn in by hand
14:38:43 <ais523_> I guess that explains why there's only one copy
14:44:13 <ais523_> haha, this document doesn't define the Muller C-element /either/ :)
14:44:54 <ais523_> I think, at least, it's hard to tell
14:45:40 <oerjan> maybe there's actually a book by nearly the same name written by Muller himself
14:45:55 <ais523_> nah, this document is written by Muller himself
14:46:16 <ais523_> I know I got the right book with Miller because the publisher and publication year matched too
14:46:49 <ais523_> anyway, that was "A Theory of Asynchronous Circuits I" I checked
14:46:58 <ais523_> II is incorrectly labeled as I on archive.org, maybe it's in that one
14:48:23 <ais523_> hmm... II has thinner paper, you can see through the back of the page
14:48:30 <oerjan> prediction: some time in the next century a flawed proof of the inconsistency of zfc will be announced, and no one will be able to disprove it because many of the theorems used are supported by chains of erroneous citations that no one can untangle.
14:49:09 <ais523_> oh well, that only took a day or so to track down, not bad going :)
14:50:10 <oerjan> ais523_: now you go and fix it on wikipedia in such a way that misguided people won't revert it to one of the wrong books hth
14:50:35 <Jafet> We give a positive answer to a long-standing conjecture first posed by Johansen[7].
14:51:16 <ais523> oerjan: Wikipedia's citing a conference paper which probably (but does not definitely) incorporate a copy of the technical report
14:51:38 <ais523> I should probably go link it to the archive.org page, really
14:52:02 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't recall posing any conjectures fwiw but it's been a long time
14:53:00 <elliott> oerjan: there's still time!
14:54:33 <Jafet> [7] Ø. Johansen, "prediction:", public communication, a long time.
14:55:17 <ais523> what was the conjecture?
14:55:25 <oerjan> Jafet: that's not a _mathematical_ conjecture hth
14:56:04 <ais523> oh, the theory about the inconsistency of zfc
14:56:34 <Jafet> It's a mythematical one
14:57:00 <HackEgo> 2013-05-28.txt:04:16:11: <Bike> prediction: nobody actually uses ZFC besides set theorists anyway
14:57:19 <Jafet> That looks like a conjecture
14:57:37 <oerjan> but _still_ not a mathematical one hth
15:00:35 <ais523_> also, "Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2013"
15:01:01 <ais523_> so it would have been basically impossible for anyone to get a copy before then, except maybe if they lived in Illinois
15:12:45 <Jafet> The year of the Muller C-element has come
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15:14:04 <ais523_> the funny thing is, the very original source just defines what it is, and doesn't really discuss it at all
15:14:19 <ais523_> also it doesn't name it, it uses "C" for arbitrary circuits
15:14:31 <ais523_> and so that one was called C in context, and the name appears to have stuck
15:23:36 -!- boily has joined.
15:24:32 <boily> good translated morning!
15:27:48 <fizzie> I don't speak the lingo, it was just a translated morning courtesy of Google Translate.
15:31:24 <boily> (that was a meh done in Finnish.)
15:32:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:32:13 -!- ais523__ has joined.
15:32:57 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523.
15:33:04 <boily> we should measure ais523_'s rate of underscorization throughout the day.
15:33:21 <ais523> boily: the nicks "ais523" and "ais523_" actually have different semantics
15:33:40 <ais523> I've been known to nick from one to the other when I picked the wrong one by mistake or via collision
15:33:52 <Deewiant> Do they have different collision alternatives as well
15:34:14 <ais523> Deewiant: currently ais523 has ais523_ and ais523__ as collision alternatives
15:34:18 <ais523> and ais523_ doesn't have collision alternatives
15:34:57 <Deewiant> I recommend using something other than _ as the uncollision character
15:35:00 <boily> hmm... I fear complexities for the The Question.
15:35:02 <ais523> OK, now I have callforjudgement and scarf as my collision alternatives
15:35:04 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
15:35:10 <boily> are all aises approximately in the same place?
15:35:21 <Deewiant> I don't recommend using completely different nicks as collision alternatives
15:35:28 <zzo38> If you store all of the IRC logs in a SQL database then it should be easy enough to measure all of these things, especially if you add some extensions such as mathematical extensions, blob parsing extensions, graphical extensions to plot the graph of when you did it
15:35:35 <scarf> boily: ais523_ is me when I'm using a hotdesking or public computer, via a wired connection
15:35:39 <boily> (I guess the scarves they wear are background statistically insignificant noise)
15:35:39 <scarf> whereas ais523 is my laptop
15:35:50 <scarf> currently the laptop is next to a work computer
15:36:08 <Deewiant> Is that your only computer or is there a third class of nick for other computers you own
15:36:38 <scarf> it's the only computer that a) I own, b) is currently working, and c) is capable of going online
15:36:39 <Deewiant> Or for when you're using a public computer via a wireless connection
15:36:49 <scarf> that one's never happened
15:37:06 <scarf> so I don't have a contingency plan for that yet
15:38:29 * oerjan imagines scarf desperately failing to log in at a wireless public computer because he cannot decide which nick to use
15:39:32 <oerjan> argh chocolate covered peanuts are dangerous
15:39:46 <scarf> oerjan: nut allergy?
15:39:56 <oerjan> must... resist... ...soon...
15:40:02 <monotone> Have you considered incrementing the ais number?
15:40:15 <oerjan> monotone: now that's just heretical talk
15:40:19 <monotone> I'm curious to see what ais524 and ais996873 are like.
15:40:49 <oerjan> don't go that direction, ais527 is actually a serial killer
15:40:52 <scarf> monotone: I've nicked to ais524 before now as a joke in response to "ais523++"
15:40:57 <scarf> but I don't do that reliably or consistently
15:41:50 <oerjan> scarf: no allergy but also no willpower hth
15:42:12 <boily> right. my bot is dead.
15:42:20 -!- metasepia has joined.
15:42:21 <Bike> bye cuttlefish
15:42:25 <metasepia> monotone definition: a succession of syllables, words, or sentences in one unvaried key or pitch.
15:42:40 <metasepia> A scarf, also known as a muffler, or neck-wrap is a piece of fabric worn around the neck, or near the head or around the waist for warmth, cleanliness, fashion or for religious reasons.
15:49:01 <fizzie> Uh... has MDN somehow broken itself? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array has the same list of methods (concat, join, slice, toSource, toString, indexOf, lastIndexOf) for all the subsections of the "Array instances" section (Properties, Mutator methods, Accessor methods, ...)
15:49:26 -!- iamfishhead has joined.
15:51:15 <monotone> fizzie: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/prototype still works.
15:51:21 <boily> someone on hackage has read xkcd... there's a thyme package out there.
15:51:45 <oerjan> boily: but does it change every hour?
15:51:56 <fizzie> monotone: Seems to. Perhaps they've somehow broken the template inclusion mechanism, that's what is being used to include those sections in the top "Array" page.
15:52:35 <boily> oerjan: don't think so. I think it's a reference to the old mussolini pun.
15:57:45 <Taneb> boily, not necessarily, "time" and "thyme" are homophones, so it's a pretty obvious joke
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16:00:24 <boily> Taneb: but, but... I am young and naïve... can't I dream of xkcd spreading all over the intarwebs?
16:00:55 <Taneb> Are you sure that would be a good thing?
16:07:37 <fizzie> Huh, is it really the case that only the Gecko-derived browsers support any of the fancy language-level things (like let, comprehensions, generators, whatnot) of JavaScript 1.7/1.8? Welp. The more you know, I guess.
16:08:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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16:15:05 <zzo38> I suppose you can use those fancy things in a program meant as the browser extension, or in a XUL application, or maybe in other programs that use the same JavaScript engine, such as Synchronet
16:16:46 <ais523_> I don't think you can just cat things to network adapters like that
16:17:36 <fizzie> You can cat to a file called "eth0" just fine, though.
16:18:59 <fizzie> Sadly, you can't even cat to any file in /sys/class/net/eth0/ and get those bytes sent as a raw Ethernet frame.
16:21:39 -!- valer has joined.
16:23:40 <valer> Hi, I was browsing the wiki and noticed that P′′ is both in Category:Implemented (as it should be) and Category:Unimplemented. Must be some MediaWiki glitch.
16:23:56 <HackEgo> valer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:24:15 <elliott> hmm, it doesn't show in unimplemented to me
16:24:19 <elliott> maybe the cached version is broken...
16:24:35 <elliott> valer: how about now, if you refresh?
16:24:52 <valer> Okay, it isn't there any more for me either.
16:25:04 <elliott> this has hapepned before recently, maybe something broke
16:30:21 <Roujo> ais523_: Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean that you shouldn't =P
16:30:36 <scarf> LEGAL but not POSSIBE
16:31:27 <Roujo> Has that ever happened in Agora? =P
16:31:55 <scarf> Roujo: all sorts of things are legal but impossible in Agora
16:32:08 <scarf> pretty much any ISIDTID, for instance
16:32:40 <Roujo> Well, saying you do something is both LEGAL and POSSIBLE
16:33:31 <Roujo> Oh. So if there was some mechanism that made it possible for you to do it, you wouldn't be breaking any rules by doing so
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17:02:31 <zzo38> Can you answer my question from yesterday?
17:03:22 <scarf> zzo38: only by accident, because I don't know what it is
17:09:40 <zzo38> Which people in here have told about what dream they have? I want to know some things such as how commonly things resembling different kinds of logic (or no kinds of logic) applies, and a few others. A few times it has happened when in the dream there was something where linear logic seemed to apply, even though it isn't a case where that would be the case in real life.
17:09:49 <zzo38> Who (and how many) of you have done this?
17:11:57 <elliott> what happened re: linear logic?
17:13:10 <ais523_> I've never had a dream that appeared to follow the rules of linear logic
17:14:22 <olsner> I think I've told about some dream I've had some time, but I know nothing about linear logic
17:14:24 <zzo38> Things that can ordinary be used together cannot, things that ordinarily don't, instead must, etc, it has a slight resemblence to some of the operators in linear logic, if interpreted in the right way
17:14:41 <zzo38> olsner: Do you know what dream you've had (in general)?
17:15:04 <oklopol> i think you have a rather different intuition of linear logic than me
17:15:45 <zzo38> oklopol: Well, there are different things it can apply to. (I think this is case with most systems of logic; there are different applications of them than only what is intended/common.)
17:15:52 <oklopol> can you give some sort of example
17:16:13 <scarf> olsner: the main rule of linear logic is that variables cannot be copied or destroyed
17:16:16 <scarf> you have to use them all exactly once
17:16:39 <zzo38> scarf: Yes, that is mainly the rule how it works, and then there are multiplicative and additive operators, and so on
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17:17:05 <zzo38> Although if you have exclamation/question marks then you can make it allow to use more than once
17:17:14 <scarf> trying to explain all of linear logic in one sentence doesn't work very well
17:17:19 <scarf> so explaining the basic idea is normally better
17:19:01 <zzo38> There were a few examples in my dreams, although one case was a dream where I was thinking of two things at once, one of which could not interact with the rest of my dream, despite being a part of it that isn't being discarded...
17:20:40 <zzo38> Do you ever dream that you are someone else? Do you ever dream that you are of a different species? Do you ever dream that you can fly? Do you ever dream in which you have two thoughts at once, one of which is presumably outside of the dream but is actually still only part of the dream?
17:20:48 <zzo38> (or even three levels)
17:21:03 <ais523_> sometimes I dream that I have a dream
17:21:11 <ais523_> it gets quite confusing when I dream that I wake up
17:22:01 <oklopol> i was once stuck in a dream loop, kept waking up and everything was normal for a couple of minutes and then... a dinosaur.
17:22:07 <zzo38> ais523_: It happens to me, but it doesn't confuse me so much really
17:22:16 <zzo38> oklopol: That happen to me too, but without the dinosaur
17:22:16 <fizzie> I've forgotten completely what the password is to my RPi.
17:22:29 <scarf> fizzie: can you boot up in single-user mode to fix it?
17:22:33 <scarf> or does it not have a serial terminal?
17:22:39 <oklopol> when it was over, i took a 1.5 hour long walk and kept checking that there is nothing suspicious under the snow
17:22:55 <scarf> oklopol: I find that when I'm awake it's easy to verify that I'm awake
17:23:02 <scarf> but when I'm actually asleep I don't think to check
17:23:09 <fizzie> scarf: It has a HDMI port and supports USB keyboards, but I don't really know if the bootloader can take any arguments.
17:23:10 <oklopol> i thought so too, until i had this dream
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17:23:22 <zzo38> What I find is there is no point in checking this
17:23:32 <fizzie> scarf: On the other hand, I can just stick its "hard disk" (a SD card) to a memory card reader and change the password.
17:23:54 <zzo38> Once it was the dream that I knew was the dream but I told people in the dream and they didn't believe me.
17:23:58 <fizzie> scarf: (Though I can't really shut it down cleanly without being able to login. It doesn't have a soft power switch. Or a hard one.)
17:24:12 <zzo38> (But usually I do not have such a belief)
17:24:19 <scarf> fizzie: you could just crash it, I guess
17:24:28 <fizzie> I think I'm going to have to.
17:24:28 <scarf> via cutting the power
17:25:25 <zzo38> I realize something, that in both cases when I was of a different species, it was the species of the character of a game I have played and made up the character (two different games, though, one D&D and one a MUD). Other thing that might be remarkable is that many people say they often dream they can fly, but I could only fly when I was the correct species.
17:26:07 <zzo38> There are other things too other people report about their dreams, many of which I find I have it differently, although some things are the same in my dreams, but there are many differences.
17:26:20 <zzo38> These things seems like remarkable to me.
17:28:35 <zzo38> Later after I woke up, the flying dream also reminded me of something IKEA once did, where they wrote about measuring the space in a room in cubic units rather than square units.
17:29:12 <fizzie> "passwd: Cannot determine your user name."
17:29:23 <fizzie> (I gave it a user name argument.)
17:30:04 <fizzie> (As in, "passwd -R /mounted/thing user". Maybe that's not right.)
17:34:10 <fizzie> I guess it does a chroot to /mounted/thing and only after that tries to dynamically load some libnss stuff, which of course won't work out. I suppose I need to use some lower-level thing that just edits the shadow file.
17:34:12 <zzo38> How different are your dreams from mine?
17:36:57 <Taneb> I had a dream that I was hanging out with three Homestuck cosplayers
17:37:06 <Taneb> A John, a Dave, and a Jade
17:37:13 <Taneb> And I was good friends with the Dave
17:37:33 <Taneb> Then the John cosplayer decided he was going to kill me and the Dave cosplayer and we had to run away
17:38:03 <zzo38> And what did Jade do?
17:38:40 <Taneb> I think she was friends with the John cosplayer but staying neutral on the whole killing us thing
17:38:49 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
17:41:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:41:40 <zzo38> I don't think anyone has ever try to kill me in my dreams, although it has happened (at least) a few times where people were trying to hurt me really badly or inject me with alcoholic drugs or something; I wake up just in time and almost fall off of the bed.
17:41:52 -!- scarf has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:44:18 <fizzie> More PulseAudio experiences: unplugged the USB device (going to try it out in the Pi) and it went to 100% CPU usage. Then pacmd unload-module'd the USB stick sink/source modules, and it crashed.
17:44:29 -!- sacje has joined.
17:44:32 <fizzie> "pulseaudio[3719]: [pulseaudio] proplist.c: Assertion 'p' failed at pulse/proplist.c:71, function pa_proplist_free(). Aborting."
17:44:44 <kmc> don't get injected with alcoholic drugs
17:48:22 <zzo38> kmc: That is why I wake up exactly in time and almost fall off of the bed from the sudden movement
17:48:44 <zzo38> So even in the dream I don't be injected with alcoholic drugs.
17:51:26 <kmc> what are alcoholic drugs?
17:51:32 <kmc> drugs that aren't alcohol, prepared in alcohol solution?
17:51:50 <kmc> i had some of those
17:52:46 <zzo38> I don't know what they are.
17:53:01 <kmc> alcohol is a p. good solvent
17:53:15 <zzo38> This is just the word I used to describe what happened in my dream
17:53:17 <olsner> is there also narcotic booze?
18:06:22 <kmc> zzo38: that is fair, sometimes dreams don't make sense and they need words that don't make sense either
18:06:57 <kmc> borrowchecker ate my balls
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18:20:52 <boily> Roujo: random question: will you go to the otakuthon?
18:21:00 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:21:37 <Roujo> boily: I was supposed to >_>
18:21:54 <Roujo> I was supposed to go with a friend of mine
18:21:59 <Roujo> But multiple things happened:
18:22:12 <Roujo> Our costume projects was too ambitious
18:22:24 <Roujo> We never planned our backup project
18:22:50 <Roujo> She stopped talking to be a couple of days ago
18:24:03 <Roujo> We have a pretty weird relatioship anyway
18:24:15 * boily gives a virtual etopen plushie to Roujo to make him feel better
18:24:40 <boily> I asked because I'm one of the volunteers going there. a friend and I will be presenting mahjong, shōgi and xiangqi.
18:25:01 <katla> has anyone got the ICFP question yet?
18:25:15 <boily> Roujo: btw, if you're ever interested in playing mahjong, we're looking for new members for our club.
18:25:40 <zzo38> I play mahjong sometimes
18:25:55 <zzo38> I know how to play mahjong and shogi and xiangqi.
18:26:46 <boily> shōgi is hard. I suck at it :p
18:27:14 <Roujo> katla: Do you mean what the current contest is about?
18:27:44 <Roujo> http://icfpc2013.cloudapp.net/
18:27:53 <Roujo> That's just the page
18:27:56 <Roujo> I'll get the post >_>
18:28:41 <zzo38> Do you know any of Fukumoto's manga?
18:28:45 <Roujo> Can't seem to be able to find a permalink
18:29:00 <Roujo> Just ctrl+f "Let the games begin!"
18:29:28 <boily> zzo38: fukumoto nobuyuki?
18:30:21 <boily> zzo38: well, my friends always try to evangelize akagi onto my poor person, but so far I havn't yet succumbed to the temptation.
18:30:26 <katla> it's 'guess the function'
18:30:34 <katla> didn't you guys already implement a solution for this
18:30:46 <zzo38> I have all of the Akagi up to 24.
18:31:18 <katla> well thats fine im no longer interested in ICFP
18:31:21 <katla> thanks for the link
18:34:21 <boily> zzo38: I have a few French version hikaru no go laying about in my library. I think there are also 2 doraemons in there. and I have the Japanese version of yokohama kaidashi kikō.
18:34:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:35:19 <boily> the last volume of YKK cost me 50 CAD to get it from amazon.co.jp. filthy scammers.
18:37:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:38:12 <zzo38> boily: I have only Akagi.
18:39:03 -!- dessos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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18:40:19 <boily> zzo38: I had the omnibus version of all the azumanga daioh, but my brother long-term-borrowed it.
18:41:19 <boily> I'm thinking of getting nichijō and legend of koizumi next.
18:42:00 <boily> but then, there is also some hardcore science-fiction to be had first.
18:42:09 <valer> I've heard that a good method to notice if you are dreaming is to look for numbers. When dreaming, numbers tend to change constantly and be vague. I have once succeeded this. I looked at a clock or something and when the numbers changed, I knew I was dreaming.
18:42:42 <boily> if only I could get something as precise as a vague number when I dream...
18:42:52 <elliott> valer: looking at your hands tends to be pretty good in my experience
18:42:58 <elliott> as long as you can handle seeing your hands all messed up
18:44:39 <zzo38> It doesn't work to me, the logic is different when you are sleeping, I just either know or I don't know, and either way it seems to me there is no point in checking even if there is a way to do so.
18:47:33 <valer> Several times when I've been close to waking up and noticed (or half-noticed) that I'm dreaming, I've exploited the fact and started to fly around.
18:50:28 <zzo38> A lot of people say they fly in their dreams but like I have said I never had except once recently when I was mi-go. I don't know why a lot of people do and I don't. Even though in cases that I do notice I am dreaming, I don't fly. Although once I told someone in the dream that it is the dream, and they didn't believe me!
18:51:40 <katla> i think its pretty rare to get to fly in a dream
18:51:52 <katla> but it feels great to fly, whether in a dream or not -so people talk about it a lot
18:52:41 <zzo38> katla: Some people I have talked to say they do very commonly, and they are still human in those cases, they aren't being a different species or something. I think it is just that different people have different dreams.
18:54:02 -!- ap3x has joined.
18:54:31 <HackEgo> ap3x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:56:43 <valer> I've also had a rewind feature in dreams. When something really bad happens, I've been able to go back to an earlier point and continue there.
18:57:39 <elliott> valer: btw, do you know a guy called kryft?
18:57:54 <zzo38> valer: Interesting. I don't think I have, though.
18:58:22 <katla> the way to win ICFP is to choose programs whose counter-examples tell you themost about how to improve them
18:58:30 <katla> I have no idea how to do that though
18:58:48 <elliott> valer: you use the same server, is why I asked.
18:59:42 <valer> Heh. The server choice is automatic, probably the closest geographically. I'm in Finland, yes.
19:00:32 <boily> oh, an interesting datapoint! can I ask him the The Question? pretty please?
19:01:33 <zzo38> valer: Have you ever had dreams where you think of two or more things at once, one of which seems at a higher (as in not dreaming) level but actually it is still a dream, where you cannot use those thoughts together for some reason even though they are basically simultaneous?
19:01:37 <valer> elliott, oh, that's a very popular non-profit shell provider here.
19:02:14 -!- TodPunk has joined.
19:02:30 <zzo38> valer: And do you ever dream in which you are a different species?
19:02:50 <elliott> valer: he's the kind of guy who goes into fizzie's office and tells him speech recognition sucks and to op me.
19:05:20 <zzo38> valer: I would like to know what features you have/haven't had in your dream, to see how to compare between different people (including myself)
19:05:27 <valer> zzo38, that's quite a specific concept, I'd have to look for it while sleeping. And about the species, I think I've been some other animal/creature but can't remember now. I've been a non-human ghost/spirit entity at least.
19:05:49 <zzo38> I once read that someone has had a dream tat ended in credits.
19:06:09 <boily> I had black and white dreams a few times.
19:06:31 <boily> can someone here whip up a quick'n'dirty poll to check our dream features?
19:07:41 <zzo38> boily: We would have to see how to do that and what kind of things to write in such a poll. It isn't quite that simple.
19:08:08 <valer> I have had god-like powers at times in dreams. Once I was an evil spirit who took great joy in terrifying people.
19:08:30 <zzo38> I don't think I have had in black and white. At one time I thought you dream in black and white because the room is dark, but once the room was dark and my dream was still in colors, so that can't be in.
19:11:03 <zzo38> valer: Interesting; I was never had. Only two cases I was as a different species, was still physical, and in both cases a species of a character I made up in a game I have played (once D&D, once a MUD). I was never evil nor a spirit.
19:11:43 <zzo38> In the one that I fly, for some reason, I lived in an apartment (although I do not actually live in an apartment in real life), together with my family and friends
19:12:30 <zzo38> (I didn't live in a apartment in the game where the species is from, either)
19:14:38 <valer> I've had some very colorful and epic adventure dreams. They're fun but not that common. Manyt times my dreams have resembled a movie, but alas no end credits.
19:14:56 <elliott> http://static.bbc.co.uk/programmeimages/608xn/images/p01dw05r.jpg image brought to you by the BBC
19:14:58 <zzo38> I haven't had credits either but I have read that someone has.
19:15:08 * boily is jealous of people who have real, structured, precise dreams
19:15:09 <elliott> kmc: Bike: I think you would enjoy clicking this ^
19:15:40 <zzo38> boily: I almost have.
19:16:11 <boily> zzo38: thanks. I feel reassured to be similar to a normal person like you.
19:16:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is Adam Curtis scottish
19:16:46 <zzo38> Do you think I am a normal person? I think not (but who really is a "normal" person?).
19:18:23 <boily> well, considering the kind of people we attract on this fïne chännel, I guess you fit well with others.
19:18:50 <zzo38> boily: O, OK, that's what you mean.
19:18:57 <boily> and subnormality answered that normal question some time ago.
19:21:10 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
19:25:18 <zzo38> Perhaps you know that I am strange because of my philosophies and religions, because I like to play monster character in Dungeons&Dragons game (and other game), because of various questions I write about, and because I do esolang stuff, and other things possibly
19:26:10 <boily> you are strange, therefore you are normal :p
19:26:55 <zzo38> But, who is really a "normal" people???
19:26:58 <katla> i think most people around here are unusual in a good way
19:27:13 <zzo38> katla: Yes, I think so, too, I think that is a good thing
19:32:55 <fizzie> Yay, a middle-endian 24-bit number. (As in, value 0x123456 is represented by the bytes 0x12 0x56 0x34.)
19:33:25 <katla> middle-endian... just why...
19:34:40 <kmc> normal people suck
19:36:57 <valer> There's probably some performance benefit in meddle-endianness in some screwed-up architecture.
19:38:03 <Fiora> I remember a thing where softfp on ARM was like, mixed endian?
19:38:28 <Fiora> like, doubles were EFGH ABCD instead of little-endian (ABCDEFGH) or big-endian (HGFEDCBA)
19:38:52 <kmc> fizzie: whyyyyy
19:39:42 <katla> if your arch is faster with MIDDLE endian numbers you probably did something wrong
19:40:16 <zzo38> I think I have read that OHRRPGCE archive files use middle endian for the file sizes (but not for other numbers).
19:40:20 <kmc> "mistakes were made"
19:40:39 <metasepia> The Official Hamster Republic Role Playing Game Creation Engine, abbreviated as OHRRPGCE or OHR, is an open-source, "All-in-one" game creation system.
19:41:39 <zzo38> It isn't a very good system though there are many things I wanted to do which it lacks, which is why I will rewrite Uselessness RPG using other systems.
19:44:21 <valer> Being good enough for hamster role play doesn't imply fitness for general games.
19:45:12 <zzo38> I decided to make the first one using Z-machine and without graphics (I am not very good at making the graphics), and I have on paper I am writing how I will decide to encode the stuff, what locations, what characters, ability scores, skills, etc. So far I have listed four characters and the old man doesn't yet have a name.
19:46:27 <zzo38> Maybe you and others can help me too. (And maybe the sequel might have graphics, and might be written in SQL or something else instead)
19:50:00 <zzo38> You can write ideas/questions/complaints you have, if you have anything to write.
19:50:36 <valer> Does your project have github or something?
19:50:39 <boily> I have and idea/question/complaint to write: can you github the thing?
19:50:53 <boily> darn. I've been ninj-valer-aed.
19:51:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:51:39 <zzo38> No it doesn't, at least not at this time. I don't know if I will put a git repository, but for now I am writing it on a paper anyways; I didn't put it into the computer yet.
19:52:30 * boily unleashes some random cetacean on valer. “that'll teach ya, or at least it'll beluga ya!”
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19:52:57 <boily> some day, we'll have git for paper. that will be a glorious, revision controled day.
19:53:17 <zzo38> Probably it will be all in one file anyways, unless I have music.
19:54:16 <boily> speaking of music in files, do we have an easily editable and revisionable text format out there?
19:54:39 <zzo38> Do you mean music files or text files?
19:54:59 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
19:55:00 <boily> there's lilypond, but I don't count it as easy.
19:55:21 <boily> something with a simple syntax that can be compiled to sheet music.
19:55:23 <zzo38> There is Music Macro Language, and that is what I use for music.
19:56:12 <zzo38> MML isn't designed for sheet music though, but, I would hope that something simpler than Lilypond can be made up that would use MML and compile into .DVI format.
19:56:46 <zzo38> (but the quality of the printout also has to be improved like Lilypond is, rather than using a bad quality printout.)
19:57:15 <boily> hm. MML reminds me of my old BASIC days...
19:59:22 <zzo38> BASIC uses a simple kind of MML, but there is more sophisticated ones with multi-track and other things; there is ppMCK for compiling MML into .NSF, and I have even added some things into ppMCK such as tail recursion and the * and ? commands (I find * and ? very useful for writing chords, although they are useful for other things too)
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20:02:07 <valer> There's XML representations of MIDI and such.
20:02:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:03:50 <boily> valer: hello. my name is boily. you mentioned XML. prepare to be cetaceaned.
20:04:24 <valer> I accidentally XML. Is this bad?
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20:09:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12235
20:16:58 <Gracenotes> computers will never play music as good as people. fact.
20:17:25 <valer> I have a feeling that a computer would disagree.
20:17:53 <Gracenotes> computers will never disagree with people as good as people.
20:18:24 <boily> I just took two advils. don't give me a new headache please.
20:18:40 <Bike> music is hard. think of the fluid dynamics
20:19:02 * boily collapses in a twitching lump on the floor
20:27:12 <boily> fyi, the floored lump that I am ain't dead yet.
20:29:29 <valer> Things that I hate the most:
20:29:29 <valer> * People flooding IRC with pointless jokes
20:30:36 <Gracenotes> the only way that joke could be funnier is if it didn't exist
20:37:00 <fizzie> kmc: I don't really know whyyyyy, but it was a case where the field on-disk has three bytes, but after loading, in-memory, the first byte (the high one) is overwritten, and the two low ones are used as a segment value.
20:37:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:37:52 <fizzie> (Also pretty impressive A/V sync from mplayer + pulseaudio native TCP + RPi + USB sound card in the same hub as the Ethernet interface; I wonder if it does some latency estimation mplayer can use.)
20:52:03 * boily kicks github in the unicorn
20:54:11 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 my impression of my dreams is that they're a window into something profoundly lacking in logical structure.
20:55:02 <zzo38> OK, well, to me there is sometimes still some kind of logic, but not necessarily the kind of logic which would seem correct for the situation.
20:55:30 <oerjan> zzo38: there are fragments of _meaning_ in the dreams, but there's no way of composing two fragments and concluding anything.
20:56:19 <boily> dream fragments do not form a category.
20:56:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Perhaps to you it is. To me it is different; it tends to be like a strange kind of logic more often than it is no logic at all, although it is sometimes the logic that corresponds to real life too.
20:58:01 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe you have found something others haven't discovered, in which case you should try and deduce the rules for the rest of us.
20:58:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Even if it does, it doesn't necessarily mean it applies to you.
20:58:31 <oerjan> alternatively, the logic may get into your dreams from thinking a lot about logic in waking life...
21:00:10 <oerjan> and yeah, i don't really expect dreams to be comparable from person to person except on a deep emotional/symbolic level.
21:02:08 -!- Canaimero-ccd has joined.
21:02:27 <zzo38> It happens even before I think about logic, actually
21:02:40 <oerjan> `@ Canaimero-ccd ? welcome.es
21:02:42 <HackEgo> Canaimero-ccd: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:03:08 <zzo38> (but maybe there is backward causality; it sometimes seems like that)
21:03:24 <oerjan> i wonder if that message should say something about conversation here being generally in english
21:03:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes maybe it should help
21:03:47 <oerjan> Canaimero-ccd: no hablo español
21:03:55 -!- Canaimero-ccd has left.
21:04:15 <boily> but... I didn't have time to `rienvenido him...
21:04:26 <oerjan> boily: someone made that?
21:04:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenido: not found
21:04:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rienvenido: not found
21:06:08 <zzo38> oerjan: But I can give an example of the logic, for example: I was a different species and found a place that, I had the thought (independently) that it was a place I (as a human, though) had been to before. However, this wasn't true (it was also the dream), but in addition, it was independent and could not be combined with another thought in the dream. It reminds me of how in some kinds of logic you cannot always use things together
21:07:29 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/os!/os! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español./' wisdom/welcome.es
21:07:41 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:08:11 <boily> first thing Monday morning.
21:08:25 <oerjan> boily: i think the large number of spanish people is because the channel name starts with es
21:08:39 <oerjan> at least that's my theory.
21:08:58 <boily> time to go eat. goodnight all!
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21:09:38 <zzo38> I do sometimes not notice things until after the dream, for example it reminded me of IKEA's measuring space in a room using cubic measurements.
21:12:05 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/welcome*
21:12:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es
21:13:12 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:14:40 <oerjan> `run sed 's/welcome/welcome.es/' bin/welcome > bin/bienvenido; chmod +x bin/bienvenido
21:14:52 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:15:27 <oerjan> `run sed 's/welcome/welcome.es/g' bin/welcome > bin/bienvenido; chmod +x bin/bienvenido
21:15:36 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:16:26 <valer> How about a non-deterministic self-modifying esolang that simulates dreaming :P
21:17:11 <zzo38> valer: Good; write in list of ideas on the wiki.
21:17:21 <HackEgo> VaLeR: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:22:37 <valer> That URL doesn't work, in case you wondered.
21:23:15 <oerjan> complain to elliott, not that it has helped before
21:24:03 <oerjan> the problem is stuck between his overengineering and his laziness :P
21:24:53 <elliott> that sentence describes me :/
21:25:06 <oerjan> (he wants to make it work for all wiki pages, _and_ change the contents as well. this is for `WELCOME but i assume `WeLcOmE would be a small step after that.
21:25:34 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok i have things stuck in the same place.
21:27:08 <oerjan> like both of my unimplemented esolangs...
21:28:10 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/3b6bc5d878e7bddabd373c7781a4a3d1/tumblr_mr3nydWdgH1r7sn1go1_1280.jpg gotta save this for when people ask what it's like where i live
21:28:37 <olsner> mystery crater country?
21:29:18 <Bike> as opposed to perfectly explicable crater country
21:31:58 <oerjan> Bike: we note that in the future the darién gap has got worse rather than better
21:33:24 <Bike> Actually, after Oxfam was taken over by the meerkat-people they launched a development initiative. It's pretty easy for the nuclear people to drive up to visit the human reserve.
21:34:09 <Bike> The gorillas have a big wall to keep out human migrants, though. Say humans are too lazy to work as anything but slaves.
21:34:21 <Bike> Major international hominid rights debate there
21:35:40 <zzo38> oerjan: I think they should just make /wIkI/MaIn_pAgE to redirect.
21:36:39 <kmc> i love how git add -p lets you edit individual diff hunks
21:36:43 <kmc> and i am basically supernaturally good at this
21:39:39 <olsner> I don't think I've ever tried the command line version of that ... git gui is very handy for it
21:41:51 <oerjan> clearly they are sentient uranium hth
21:41:59 <valer> Bike, I see you have an enviably lush head of hair.
21:42:16 <Bike> uh, that's not me. i'm a bike, not a human.
21:43:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm plausible
21:46:13 <kmc> god damn Crystal Castles is so good
21:46:25 <kmc> I could be seeing Alice Glass perform at a club tonight if I had my shit even a little together to buy tickets etc
21:49:30 <kmc> what's that
21:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> when only realised the fringe was happening during the fireworks show at the end
22:14:01 <Bike> hey someone give me a function where finding its fixed point(s) is impossible computably
22:18:36 <Bike> yeah but i'm too lazy to think of one.
22:18:41 <Bike> Fiora: i'm pretty sure you can prove BB(x) > x
22:19:13 <Bike> oh, of course you can. BB(x) grows faster than any computable function, and identity is computable
22:20:33 <Fiora> so BB(x) has no fixed point I guess?
22:20:45 <elliott> that technically satisfies Bike's requirement
22:20:56 <Fiora> a lot of things don't have fixed points though, right?
22:21:25 <Bike> elliott: ok how about "finding the fixed points or lack thereof is not computable", smartass :p
22:22:04 <Fiora> f(x) = (is the collatz conjecture true ? x : x+1)
22:22:15 <Bike> oh, i guess that actually works pretty well
22:22:34 <Bike> also i'm kind of curious about the complexity really, like computing a polynomial is pretty easy but computing its fixed points is rootfinding which is less easy
22:23:05 <Fiora> do you mean "is there a computable function for which cmoputing fixed points is uncomputable"?
22:23:26 <Bike> yeah, though it doesn't have to be computable itself, i guess, i only want it for an example
22:23:28 <elliott> well I don't understand Bike's question
22:23:49 <elliott> since like if the codomain is the integers then any given fixed point is an integer
22:24:17 <elliott> and any other way of "finding" it is just a longwinded way to compute a constant
22:25:11 <elliott> and like Fiora's function, finding a fixed point of it is trivial iff the Collatz conjecture is true, the problem there is more in knowing what the function is at all, so I kind of don't understand how it satisfies Bike's requirements
22:25:16 <elliott> but uh I don't know any of this stuff really
22:25:33 <Fiora> neither do I , I don't reallyh get it
22:27:50 <Bike> it's not that important
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22:54:24 <zzo38> Does GitHub have any simpler webpage without all of the fancy stuff on it?
22:54:54 <shachaf> zzo38: To accomplish what?
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22:55:22 <zzo38> shachaf: To make it faster.
22:55:57 <zzo38> I think some SVN repositories have that, where you just get a directory listing with absolutely nothing else.
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23:16:03 <zzo38> Is there any way to enter a low-bandwidth mode or something like that?
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00:42:02 <zzo38> Do you know that most Z-machine interpreters are defective? I have tried them and all of them, including Infocom's own interpreters, are defective.
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01:14:21 <zzo38> I don't know everything about it, but testing it, they all seem defective, although my own interpreter "Aimfiz" seems to be the most accurate one.
01:16:53 <zzo38> It seems other interpreters try to cache things they shouldn't cache, make incorrect assumptions, and do other wrong things. Infocom's interpreter seems to be second most accurate, as far as I can tell.
01:21:25 * Sgeo wonders if Aimfiz has defects that others don't
01:21:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is possible.
01:21:54 <zzo38> See if there are some that I missed; if so then I will fix it.
01:22:41 <Sgeo> I don't have enough knowledge of either Z-machines or Aimfix
01:23:50 <zzo38> Unfortunately the documentation for the Z-machine is also defective; I had to look at both Infocom's and Graham's documentation, as well as Infocom's interpreters, and their story files, to figure out the correct way; a few things that have never been used or implemented are still unknown, however.
01:25:07 <Bike> this sure sounds like a fascinating definition of "correct" and "defective"
01:25:33 <Bike> by which i mean, i don't think you're going to get those coherently out of weird docs and implementations.
01:35:13 <Sgeo> What does correct mean?
01:38:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't really know for sure, so I study everything and make the best guess, and it turns out it works; I am highly confident that I did it correctly.
01:44:31 <zzo38> However what I am somewhat less confident of is that my interpreter lacks defects.
01:49:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:56:44 <zzo38> One thing that is unknown is the MIDI format for Z-machine. All of Infocom's MIDI files play a single note, and their interpreters all implement MIDI in a klugy way, so I don't know what is correct. But I have looked at them and partially figured it out.
02:01:42 <zzo38> They seem to be a series of ordinary MIDI commands, although 0xFF seems to be some kind of delay; I don't know what units it is in, though.
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02:19:27 <Bike> So is fix totally computable?
02:24:38 <elliott> it spits out _|_ a lot though.
02:25:40 <Bike> like not that.
02:26:53 <elliott> well, it's not going to find numeric fixpoints.
02:27:01 <elliott> unless you use a really weird number type or something I guess
02:27:23 <Bike> well i meant fix "the function" not fix "the thing in haskell" i guess.
02:27:29 <elliott> well, that is fix the function
02:27:41 <elliott> it's a legitimate fixed point from the perspective of haskell's denotational semantics
02:27:58 <Bike> how about something that returns all fixed points, then.
02:28:50 <comex> that's turing complete
02:28:52 <Bike> > [undefined, 1, 2] !! 1 -- derp
02:30:52 <Bike> i guess "all" is a lot harder semantically to describe
02:31:43 <comex> fix itself is not computable.
02:31:50 <comex> \n -> whether a program terminates at the nth step
02:31:55 <shachaf> Bike: the limit of a diagram that looks like •⇉• hth
02:32:26 <Bike> comex: like with 1 = true?
02:32:35 <comex> i guess n if it terminates, some other value otherwise
02:32:51 <comex> any algorithm that runs in finite time has the possibility of returning the wrong value
02:33:01 <comex> (which is the number of steps or _|_)
02:34:21 <comex> oh, except running for an infinite amount of time counts as a return value, right?
02:34:23 <elliott> defining _|_ as wrong as a result is as wrong as defining 123 as wrong as a result :/
02:34:43 <elliott> f (fix f) = fix f is always obeyed
02:34:55 <comex> that is not a particularly useful definition of computability
02:35:02 <comex> every function is computable
02:35:04 <Bike> yeah fix f = undefined is boring.
02:35:15 <Bike> well, that's not it. whatever
02:36:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `\'
02:36:13 <Bike> > fix (\x -> 1)
02:36:44 <comex> is it not true that allowing _|_ as a "return value", every function is computable?
02:37:05 <Bike> > (\x -> 1) undefined -- right right
02:38:07 <elliott> fix gives the least ("least" according to definedness, imagine the lattice in your head, etc.) fixed-point of any function
02:38:10 <kmc> zzo38: did you write a Z-machine fuzzer?
02:38:21 <elliott> which is what it's supposed to do, and does
02:38:30 <elliott> there's no "gaps" where it gives _|_ but should be giving something else
02:38:46 <comex> no, i realized that
02:39:20 <comex> and i guess the other thing isn't true either... I think it might be true for any boolean function
02:40:03 <kmc> I mean even if you allow _|_ as a return value generally, I can still insist that you compute a function which doesn't return _|_ ever
02:40:30 <kmc> what you said is true if you consider _|_ to be just as good as any particular answer, which makes it useless
02:40:55 <elliott> but fix doesn't do that, it does exactly what it's supposed to :P
02:41:06 <elliott> and that doesn't mean that every function is computable
02:41:22 <elliott> if you made fix arbitrarily give _|_ on one function (ignoring that this breaks RT and everything) it'd be a different function
02:42:04 <Bike> i realize i was unclear, but i'm not really concerned with haskell here.
02:42:49 <comex> elliott: i claim that every function with a finite number of possible return values is computable
02:43:14 <Bike> halting oracle?
02:43:39 <comex> bah, except _|_ isn't *that* first-class
02:43:49 <elliott> Bike: but I'm not arguing with you any more!!
02:43:59 <elliott> new and exciting arguments
02:44:27 <comex> however, you can represent a halting oracle as a function that returns a finite number of possible return values and is computable
02:44:33 <comex> namely, return _|_ if it doesn't halt
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02:45:15 <Bike> so, halts = (flip seq) True?
02:45:53 <shachaf> halts x = x `seq` True -- so much simpler
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02:46:59 <Bike> god damn it, i try to write pointlessly one time
02:48:32 <shachaf> "don't worry, everything you write is pointless"
02:54:41 <Bike> So: is there a total function that, given the encoding of a partial function, returns a recursive set of its fixed points? Or just r.e.?
02:54:44 <Bike> how's that elliott.
02:54:49 <Bike> made me break out the naturals. fuck 'em.
02:55:19 <Bike> i even wrote "r.e.". reducing me to kleene dude. reducing me to kleene.
02:55:28 <elliott> what's the domain and codomain of the function :P
02:55:45 <shachaf> imo computability is overrated
02:56:05 <kmc> here's a nickel kid, buy yourself a hypercomputer
02:56:47 <Bike> costs 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + ... dollars
02:56:47 <shachaf> how much do nickel kids go for
02:56:51 <shachaf> is that like a tin soldier
03:02:27 <Bike> Maybe fix fix fucks it up.
03:04:23 <Bike> I guess it could be the empty set indicator, or something.
03:05:06 <Bike> well, no, that wouldn't work. it has to include itself.
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03:07:07 <Bike> fix f = let r = f undefined in seq r r
03:09:22 <Bike> @pl fix f = let r = f undefined in seq r r
03:09:25 <lambdabot> fix = id (fix ((ap seq id .) . (. (const . ($ undefined)))))
03:09:26 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
03:15:20 <Bike> I guess returning the empty set is fine...
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03:44:27 <zzo38> I have a list here of Dungeons&Dragons spells I wanted to make up. It is "Light of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Curse of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Blessing of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Eye of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Mouths of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Tentacles of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Random Contintency", "Quantum Entanglement", and "Quantum Teleportation".
03:46:02 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas related to this?
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04:05:12 <ion> Quantum Gxxyuxihuvxi
04:07:41 <Bike> "has no fixed points" is a nontrivial property, so I think the set of partial functions with no fixed points isn't recursive?
04:09:53 <zzo38> ion: What is that supposed to be? Another aspect of that deity? (These spells aren't supposed to be necessarily all related; they are just a bunch of different ideas, some of which are related.)
04:18:21 <Bike> which is a hell of a theorem now that i actually look at it.
04:21:58 <elliott> the simplicity is great. it's not even like "okay well your condition on programs has to have this and that and the other"
04:22:04 <elliott> it's just "hi. you can't decide anything"
04:22:12 <Bike> you can tell it's simple because i can understand it
04:22:34 <elliott> it's like a generalisation of the halting problem
04:22:44 <Bike> yeah, i noticed. very cool.
04:23:23 <Bike> isn't it exactly a generalization of the halting problem? since "defined on x" is obviously nontrivial
04:23:42 <zzo38> Do you believe in two kinds of free will? My philosophy is two kinds of free will.
04:24:01 <elliott> I guess the proof is even a generalisation of the halting problem proof
04:24:27 <elliott> oh, and you can easily use the halting problem proof to prove it right okay.
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04:31:58 <Jafet> These proofs are great, they're basically programming
04:32:19 <zzo38> OK, I can see Rice's theorem now on Wikipedia
04:32:43 <Bike> [something ignorant about coq]
04:37:54 <Jafet> The atmosphere at the time must have been something like a hacker meeting
04:38:30 <Jafet> "Now Kurt is going to talk about how we can break Hilbert's program, no matter how well it is patched"
04:39:31 <Jafet> "Of course, you can avoid this attack if you keep your system very simple"
04:40:14 <Bike> A proof that a program would be vulnerable no matter how much it was patched would be funny.
04:43:44 <Jafet> Continuous research since the genesis of the field has produced increasing experimental evidence for this proposition.
04:44:17 <Bike> that it would be funny?
04:45:40 <Jafet> On that note, why do hacker talks always sound like comedy acts
04:45:46 <zzo38> Experimental evidence is not perfect; only mathematics is perfect.
04:49:17 <kmc> this laptop fits in my trouser pockets which is rad
04:49:25 <kmc> it has a 900 MHz single core processor which is less rad
04:49:41 <kmc> Bike: do you know coq
04:50:39 <Bike> haha not even slightly
04:50:56 <Bike> calculus of qonstructions is all i know
04:51:48 <kmc> do you wanna learn
04:51:58 <Bike> i think i should learn a CAS first
04:52:22 <kmc> cause http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/ is super fun
04:52:33 <Bike> plus my "'«interests'»" are more on the end of continous stuff
04:52:50 <kmc> it's a PL theory text in the form of an addictive puzzle game
04:52:51 <Bike> oh, free? well i can't turn that down
04:53:14 <kmc> also nice quotation marks
04:53:30 <Bike> gotta keep balanced
04:53:46 <kmc> you didn't tho
04:54:13 <Bike> what if my quotation mark is "any permutation of other quotation marks"
04:54:46 <elliott> I hear cpdt is better than sf for learning coq
04:55:00 <elliott> or at least mnoqy said something like that to me because he doesn't like the messy proofs in sf
04:55:06 <Bike> is cpdt an addictive puzzle game
04:55:25 <Bike> "in-progress textbook" yeah whatever
04:55:27 <elliott> will "written by a guy permabanned from #haskell" substitute
04:55:36 <elliott> what isn't in-progress these days
04:55:54 <Bike> well like, at least the hott book looks pretty.
04:55:57 <Bike> some things are important.
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04:56:13 <Bike> anyway i can use coq on random shit like the properties of linear recurrences mod a constant, right
04:56:30 <kmc> also arent all coq proofs messy
04:56:38 <kmc> on account of the tactics language being a crime againsst humanity
04:56:53 <kmc> whos permabanned from #haskell? smerdyakov?
04:57:04 <elliott> and well, have you seen the proofs in CPDT
04:57:06 <Bike> really not feeling y'all's reviews of this book
04:57:09 <elliott> they all look like "crush."
04:58:56 <Jafet> What's criminal about tactics
05:01:18 <kmc> i made a shirt for lexande that says "Beweis: klar. \qed" except the \qed is the proper LaTeX box
05:01:26 <kmc> so the coq version would be "Proof. crush... Qed."
05:01:37 <Jafet> They're a bunch of non-contextual commands arranged in an inscrutable sequence to manipulate hidden state in a manner only obvious to the original writer
05:01:41 <Jafet> So, just like programming
05:03:28 <Bike> $ ls sf/ \\ $ rmdir sf/ \\ rmdir: failed to remove 'sf/': Directory not empty <-- linux is great
05:03:44 <Jafet> alias rmdir='rm -r'
05:05:47 <Bike> "On the Unusual Effectiveness of Logic in Computer Science" oh, this sounds cute
05:06:06 <Bike> kind of hard to imagine it being as true as what it's named after, though
05:07:15 <Jafet> If you don't like coq, isar has logically structured proof syntax eg. "proof - have ?thesis by metis (...) auto qed"
05:08:06 <Bike> yeah, i did already. just thought the way that works out is kinda funny.
05:08:33 <kmc> allegedly the dot => hidden file thing was accidental
05:08:40 <kmc> like, they wanted to hide . and .. and were lazy
05:10:23 <kmc> alias ls=sl
05:12:37 <Jafet> Well actually, I alias it to l
05:12:58 <Bike> truly what problems can't be solved with enough alias commands
05:15:03 <Jafet> I wonder if you can make an alias for 'command'
05:15:26 <Jafet> Apparently you can
05:21:03 <zzo38> I do not have completely idea of what the Dungeons&Dragons spells I named should do; I only have partially idea.
05:22:17 <kmc> what are the names
05:24:03 <zzo38> I wrote them above, but I can repeat.
05:24:05 <zzo38> It is "Light of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Curse of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Blessing of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Eye of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Mouths of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Tentacles of Gxxyuxihuvxi", "Random Contintency", "Quantum Entanglement", and "Quantum Teleportation".
05:25:10 <kmc> those are some good names for spells
05:25:15 <kmc> I hope you think of good spells for them
05:25:36 <kmc> who is Gxxyuxihuvxi?
05:27:52 <zzo38> The patron deity of my character.
05:28:26 <zzo38> I was thinking "Quantum Teleportation" would be something like quantum teleportation so you can just tell the signal to make the teleport, somehow
05:30:20 <zzo38> I also intended "Random Contingency" to be a bit like Contengency spell, you can make other spell contingent to a trigger, but using events you don't have control over and having random effects, but with some control over the casting of the spell, somehow; I am not sure how to make it, though.
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05:59:23 <shachaf> fizzie: Where are all your #esoteric graphs?
06:00:02 <shachaf> (Or anyone else, if you have a link?)
06:20:04 <fizzie> shachaf: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/
06:20:20 <fizzie> (Good timing, just woke up.)
06:26:06 <Fiora> huh. bike, kmc, and elliott mention me a lot (surppriiise)
06:26:23 <Fiora> or wait, maybe that's the other way around
06:26:27 <Fiora> that I mention them a lot.
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06:30:30 <Bike_> what if it's both...
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06:34:25 <fizzie> The mention chart is hard to read.
06:35:45 <fizzie> I made a graph version (threshod the matrix with some value that leaves K ones, treat as an adjacency matrix of a digraph, render with graphviz) of it, but it wasn't so nice.
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06:54:55 <shachaf> kmc: hm, do new episodes show up on netflix straight away, or how does one typically watch them
06:57:06 <kmc> i don't have netflix
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07:09:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: achewoodlist: not found
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12:40:30 <Jafet> “A common way of setting a register to zero is XOR EAX,EAX or SUB EBX,EBX. The Core2 and Nehalem processors recognize that certain instructions are independent of the prior value of the register if the source and destination registers are the same.”
12:40:48 <Jafet> So this is what happens to your billion transistors
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12:44:25 <Fiora> I think that kind of feature's been around for a looong while? like since early OOE things if I remember right
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14:13:15 <Jafet> Heh, calloc doesn't actually zero out pages from mmap. Linux creates the pages on-demand. So calloc gives you memory that doesn't exist.
14:13:28 <Jafet> Benchmarking with -O3 is fun
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14:18:38 <Jafet> s/mmap/mmap\/sbrk/
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16:26:47 <olsner> hmm, X seems to have leaked a lot of memory ... went from ~100MB to 677MB after disabling swap
16:28:37 <olsner> (and why does nothing seem to display the amount of swap space used by a process?)
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17:05:09 -!- tswett has set topic: When the zetas fill the skies, will our leaders tell us why? | Хммм, тхис стуфф реаллы сеемс то ворк | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:05:20 <tswett> The text I just added to the topic is, of course, in English.
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17:32:29 <Deewiant> Anybody have an idea about how to ssh into a machine where creating a process doesn't work because of a low default ulimit?
17:33:06 <Deewiant> There's an sshd running, I have other ssh processes there
17:34:18 <tswett> Yeah, I dunno. My only ideas are "kill stuff" and "reboot it".
17:34:46 <Deewiant> I could kill stuff but I don't want to
17:35:54 <Jafet> You can also have fun with people by setting their login shells to false
17:35:54 <Deewiant> And I couldn't reboot it even if I wanted to because I don't have root
17:36:36 <Deewiant> I could raise the ulimit if I got in but I guess what I'd need to do here is remotely raise the ulimit of the sshd process
17:36:49 <Deewiant> And that doesn't seem particularly possible
17:37:00 <tswett> Ask the server's owner to do something?
17:37:34 <Deewiant> I doubt the admins are interested in a little request like this on a weekend evening
17:37:46 <Jafet> What is the default ulimit?
17:37:46 <Deewiant> (It's a machine on one of the clusters at work)
17:38:31 <Jafet> Why can't you start a shell with that.
17:38:45 <Deewiant> Because I'm running a thing that starts up more threads than that
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17:51:15 <fizzie> I had ulimit-process-etc-issues when running that tournament that one time, but I don't recall if I had any terribly clever solutions.
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17:52:50 <Jafet> Write a modern kernel
17:52:54 <fizzie> I did end up using a some really silly thing to get the process count down, but I didn't quite have a can't-login issue.
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17:57:35 <Jafet> Apparently, using 16G of swap in a user program causes X to segfault
18:00:03 <olsner> interesting... do you know why?
18:00:08 <Jafet> Sillier than RLIMIT_MPROC, fizzie?
18:01:54 <Jafet> Or, it could be the VBoxVideo driver, which also sucks
18:03:40 <Jafet> I guess vboxvideo_drv.so is not really prepared to handle thrashing.
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18:27:09 <kmc> what's a pirate's favorite posix system call
18:31:40 <olsner> is the answer a very good/bad pun?
18:46:51 <kmc> it's a trick question because posix doesn't actually specify which things are system calls or library functions (or even macros???)
18:47:17 <olsner> I was just about to ask "hmm, does posix even have system calls?"
18:47:36 <Deewiant> fork(3p) at least mentions system calls, though only in the rationale
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19:17:27 <fizzie> Jafet: There was a (low) hard limit forced by some PAM scheme, it's not like you could do much about that.
19:18:43 <fizzie> Jafet: IIRC, the silly thing was just that the soft limit (used by sshd) was a bit lower than the hard limit, so I had some form of ssh-reverse-tunnel-and-netcat thingie to start my tasks in a shell with the limit raised up to the hard one.
19:19:30 <fizzie> (Java creates quite a few threads when running; the limit was something very low.)
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19:33:02 <fizzie> Do you folks happen to know/have the specs on ST3's (or ProTracker, I think it's compatible) vibrato effect? I mean, more than "vibrato with speed of x and depth of y"; in particular, what are the units of x/y. (AIUI, it's a direct adjustment to the "period" value, I guess at every tick? I guess I could try having a look at some existing module players.)
19:35:06 <fizzie> (Or is it really just an adjustment of [-y, y] directly?)
19:39:58 <Deewiant> ST3.DOC doesn't seem to say, but I guess you knew that since that's quoted from there.
19:40:30 <Deewiant> And TECH.DOC seems to have only file format stuff.
19:44:04 <fizzie> Yes, it's very confusing.
19:44:53 <fizzie> http://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=Protracker_Module#4xy seems to suggest it's at most +y (directly) to the period, and xmp's source seems to concur.
19:45:26 <fizzie> (Also that the speed is given so that on each tick, the vibrato position is incremented by x, and the full waveform is 64 ticks.)
19:49:13 <fizzie> (Except that IT manual says "old effects" (S3M-style mode) updates vibrato only on non-row ticks.)
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19:50:47 <fizzie> (Also the TECH.DOC explanation of mixing, esp. the posttable[...] stuff, looks really confuzzling.)
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20:31:27 <shachaf> kmc: i found the mölkky game!
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21:08:46 <nortti_> do you know any lighter-for-network way of remote IRC than ssh that would still be more secure than telnet?
21:11:31 <nortti_> this is coming trough, right?
21:14:17 <fizzie> I think people use mosh a lot for flaky connections.
21:14:36 <fizzie> Don't know about lightness, but it's got all that prediction stuff and aliveness-staying stuff.
21:15:31 <nortti_> does it work well over very bad latency?
21:15:42 <fizzie> I'm not a mosh user. But it's what it's designed for.
21:16:17 <fizzie> See http://mosh.mit.edu/ (if you can manage with that connection).
21:16:55 <elliott> you have to roll your own authentication if you don't want to use ssh though.
21:17:05 <elliott> (it uses ssh for auth only by default.)
21:17:40 <fizzie> Also, heh: there's a typo in Skaven's 2nd_reality.s3m. (Pattern 13, channel 4 starts with a "DD7" which, I think, should really be a D07 -- based on the fact that channel 5 has a D07 slide, and ST3 doesn't define a meaning for DD7.)
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21:22:40 <olsner> oh, the source code to 2nd reality has been released: https://github.com/mtuomi/SecondReality
21:22:45 <olsner> apparently quite recently
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21:24:33 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, and there's an amusing "encryption"/obfuscation applied to the S3M files in that distribution. (Tried to use them first.)
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21:27:04 <fizzie> olsner: Basically, each byte of the packed-pattern data has been xor'd with v, where v is what you get when you take the offset of that byte modulo 256, for each set bit take the binary value 101 shifted so that the rightmost 1 is at the set bit, and then xor all those values together.
21:28:51 <fizzie> I have no idea. It could be just to discourage ripping off the songs from the demo, but it leaves all the S3M headers and such in place.
21:29:14 <fizzie> I mean, you still get an unplayable file, but it'd have been just as easy to apply the above to the entire file instead of just the pattern data.
21:30:05 <olsner> it's probably easier to do <whatever> to the whole file rather than change specific pieces of an S3M
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21:32:33 <fizzie> (There's quite a lot of Finnish in file names there.
21:33:02 <fizzie> I'd say "less so in the comments", but I haven't really found any comments yet.
21:33:15 <olsner> the DESIGN file is almost entirely finnish
21:33:46 <fizzie> Grepping for /\* in *.c found a couple of comments in Finnish too.
21:34:13 <fizzie> It seems to be the "script".
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21:44:41 <olsner> looks like someone is making an android port of it
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21:47:28 <fizzie> olsner: A faithful one or a "HD remake" kind of thing? (Though for the latter the sources are I guess mostly irrelevant.)
21:48:33 <olsner> faithful afaict, something like letting the demo code write to a frame buffer then blitting that to the screen in the "did someone press escape yet?" function
21:50:19 <fizzie> That sounds reasonably reasonable, except for all the inline asm.
21:50:33 <fizzie> (And out-of-line, too.)
21:50:38 <olsner> (according to the readme at https://github.com/Falken42/SecondReality)
21:52:01 <olsner> I guess you could just plop in qemu's x86 emulator (or rewrite those bits in C, or make an offline x86-to-c translator to run on asm bits)
21:54:01 <fizzie> From what I recall, Second Reality runs in dosbox up to some degree. (Don't know about ARM dosbox, though.)
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21:57:50 <fizzie> It's a scrying hame that out of the three Android DosBox ports, two cost money (DosBox Turbo, AnDOSBox) and one is kinda dead and slow (aDosBox).
21:59:24 <olsner> hmm, wikipedia says that "The demo used its own memory manager which accessed the MMU directly in a way which is not compatible with modern operating systems" ... but the code I've seen is plain real-mode
21:59:53 <olsner> "accessing the MMU" doesn't really make sense for x86 anyway
22:00:37 <fizzie> olsner: Well, it does talk some EMS, it might be what they mean.
22:01:11 <fizzie> (It's for the non-GUS music.)
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22:04:48 <fizzie> (Though "accessing -- directly" is quite a stretch for just calling int 67h.)
22:05:38 <fizzie> (In related news: fopen("*EMMXXXX0","rb"); -- kinda funny.)
22:11:13 <olsner> and apparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanded_memory) early EMS implementations were in hardware (i.e. not-VM86-based), I had no idea
22:14:03 <fizzie> Oh yes, software EMS is very much just a cheat.
22:15:06 <fizzie> In particular, AIUI, there's quite a lot of copying involved in emulating the bank switching.
22:16:46 <fizzie> Hmm, Internet claims that the EMM386 approach is done by paging.
22:17:05 <fizzie> Possibly I'm remembering some older software EMS emulation.
22:25:35 <olsner> "OS/2 has no native computer viruses, and is invulnerable by design to native viruses due to the fact that it runs everything in a vm (virtual machine) mode, and all program data and caches exist in that virtual machine."
22:26:33 <fizzie> Someone needs to tag that [citation needed].
22:28:45 <fizzie> http://virus.wikidot.com/arelocs "Arelocs also known as Aep is one of a few viruses for IBM's OS/2 operating system. It is considered "the first known virus that affects OS/2 files in the 'right way'" as it writes itself to the file and modifies the NewEXE header and other system areas."
22:34:31 <olsner> finally a virus that affects the 'right way'
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00:31:23 <tswett> Man, I wish my computer viruses affected my files in the 'right way'.
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00:36:42 <tswett> Hmmm. How about a programming language based entirely on indirection.
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00:39:41 <madbr> why are CPUs still slow
00:39:49 <tswett> They aren't. They're very fast.
00:39:54 <tswett> You're just trying to do too many calculations.
00:40:38 <madbr> they're optimized for like Ms-Excel
00:41:10 <madbr> and other similar awful computation tasks that are just a jumble of load/stores and jumps
00:41:57 <madbr> we're in 2013, where's my 32xfloat wide SIMD
00:44:16 <madbr> the GPUs are doing it already
00:47:26 <tswett> Ooh, here's an idea. Co-lambda calculus.
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00:55:10 <tswett> How about co-BCKW calculus. The combinators are defined like so: B x y z = x (y z); C x y z = x z y; K x = x y; W x y y = x y.
00:56:23 <tswett> When you evaluate K x, it creates a new variable and applies x to it. When you evaluate W x y z, it adds the equation y = z and gives you x y.
00:57:05 <tswett> Whenever there's an outstanding equation... I dunno.
00:58:21 <Bike> I dunno either.
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01:33:46 <shachaf> kmc: i heard mountain view is the place to be
01:34:03 <kmc> well it depends
01:34:06 <Bike> are all non-strict haskell functions constant
01:34:12 <Bike> also hello from dorm/prison cell
01:34:14 <kmc> do you like ``the city'' or no
01:34:49 <kmc> Bike: (1:) is non-strict and non-constant
01:34:57 <shachaf> i imagine that i'd enjoy living there but who knows
01:35:39 <shachaf> Just is non-strict and non-constant
01:36:15 <Bike> ok yeah constructors that makes sense
01:36:31 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
01:36:33 <Bike> and i'm at school.
01:36:44 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
01:37:33 <Bike> so bottom isn't a fixed point of 1:.
01:38:20 <shachaf> the least-defined fixed point of (1:) is [1,1,1,...
01:38:31 <kmc> there are non-strict non-constant functions that aren't equivalent to constructors, though
01:39:25 <kmc> :t let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f
01:39:37 <kmc> there's probably a simpler example
01:39:54 <kmc> this maps Just x to Just (x+1), and Nothing to Just undefined
01:40:13 <kmc> and undefined also to Just undefined
01:40:13 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f 4
01:40:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
01:40:14 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1929720252.sh...
01:40:21 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f Just 4
01:40:22 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a2 -> t0'
01:40:25 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f $ Just 4
01:40:40 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f undefine
01:40:41 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `undefined' (imported from Prel...
01:40:41 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f undefined
01:40:42 <lambdabot> Just *Exception: Prelude.undefined
01:40:47 <kmc> weird function imo
01:41:48 <kmc> throwing numbers into the mix is a little confusing because the strictness of (+) etc. depends on the particular Num instance
01:41:51 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in fix f
01:42:42 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f Nothing
01:42:43 <lambdabot> Just *Exception: <interactive>:3:16-25: Irrefutable pattern failed for patt...
01:44:12 <shachaf> do you classify things like if' :: Bool -> a -> a -> a under "constant function"
01:44:24 <kmc> shachaf: when Blake and I lived in Manhattan he complained all the time about how terrible the city is, so I guess it's not surprising that he wants to live in MV and not SF
01:44:45 <Bike> shachaf: i don't understand what that is.
01:45:04 <shachaf> Bike: if' True x y = x; if' False x y = y
01:45:13 <Bike> what's the other a
01:45:20 <shachaf> It's often given as an example of a kind of thing you can do with non-strictness.
01:45:28 <shachaf> Bike: the return value hth
01:45:40 <Bike> uuuuugh just a sec
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01:53:24 <tswett> > iterate (\x -> "¿" ++ x ++ "?") ":"
01:53:24 <lambdabot> [":","\191:?","\191\191:??","\191\191\191:???","\191\191\191\191:????","\19...
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02:01:29 <kmc> > text "\u2e18"
02:01:30 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'u'
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02:39:37 <nooodl_> > text $ unwords $ take 20 $ iterate (\x -> "¿" ++ x ++ "?") ":"
02:39:37 <lambdabot> : ¿:? ¿¿:?? ¿¿¿:??? ¿¿¿¿:???? ¿¿¿¿¿:????? ¿¿¿¿¿¿:?????...
02:44:36 <tswett> ¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿
02:48:24 <tswett> Is there an infinite sequence S of 1s and 0s such that for all finite sequences T of 1s and 0s, there exists a natural number N such that for all substrings S' of S of length at least N, T is a substring of S'?
02:49:08 <tswett> Suppose that the sequence "1" appears, oh, in every substring of length at least 8. Then the sequence "00000000" doesn't occur at all. Qed.
02:49:26 <tswett> All right, what Very Important thing was I doing...
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03:20:40 <Jafet> Is there an infinite sequence S of 1s and 0s that encodes every interesting theorem about infinite sequences of 1s and 0s
03:21:23 <tswett> There are uncountably many.
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03:34:30 <madbr> is there a pattern of binary or trinary digits that stays the same or mostly the same when multiplied by 3^n / 2^m
03:34:43 <madbr> (where n and m can be any integer)
03:35:24 <madbr> or that evolves but in a relatively ordered way (like, game of life ordered)
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03:43:48 <zzo38> Do you like Fukumoto's mangas?
03:45:14 <zzo38> I read it I think it is very good.
03:46:32 <zzo38> It seems that Akagi declares no-ten riichi a lot more than good mahjong players would ordinarily do.
03:47:02 <zzo38> They also make a lot of extreme bluffs and tricks and that stuff.
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04:59:26 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a "free ring" (as in mathematical)?
05:16:10 <zzo38> I have an idea of what I want, but I don't know if that is what will be called a "free ring".
05:16:27 <kmc> what is it
05:17:06 <zzo38> Well, actually what I am wanting is probably what should be called a "free commutative ring".
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05:18:40 <zzo38> If there is a set "S" and the elements of this ring is multisets made up of elements of S (or lists if you omit "commutative"), and then it is a multiset of these multisets, is what I mean.
05:20:18 <zzo38> (Well, you must consider they can be negative too, if it is a ring rather than a semiring, I think)
05:22:39 <zzo38> Therefore, it is a signed multiset of these multisets?
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05:51:08 <coppro> help i think homestuck is broken
05:58:51 <Taneb> coppro, I'm feeling bored and stupid, what OS should I attempt to install on my laptop
05:59:50 <zzo38> Depend what you require
06:00:13 <zzo38> If you want to load fast and simple then install FreeDOS
06:00:17 <Taneb> zzo38, I really don't require anything for my laptop, I barely use it
06:01:02 <Bike> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4784 wow ltu is good
06:01:16 <Bike> (seriously why is this allowed though)
06:02:04 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, if you don't have a computer with FreeDOS then maybe install that one. If you don't have a computer with Linux then maybe you should install Linux.
06:02:15 <Bike> »Turnstile (⊢) shouldn't scare you. It was invented long ago by Frege and is standard mathematical notation. It is not "mumbo-jumbo".«
06:02:42 <Taneb> zzo38, I use Ubuntu pretty much exclusively. Some people say that's Linux
06:02:46 <Bike> I see that you are a strong advocate of Wikipedia including its policies of censorship, outlawry, and vilification of academics by anonymous Administrators.
06:02:49 <Taneb> FreeDOS does not interest me
06:03:08 <zzo38> Ubuntu is one Linux distribution.
06:04:06 <zzo38> Maybe you can install ReactOS, if you are OK that it still isn't quite ready yet.
06:04:24 <zzo38> But from what I can tell, FreeDOS is loading and running much faster than the other one.
06:05:30 <zzo38> If the computer and CRT is turned on at the same time it will already be loaded when the picture is visible.
06:05:39 <Bike> who uses a crt
06:05:59 <zzo38> I am using that for comparison.
06:06:54 <zzo38> Linux and Windows takes long time to start.
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06:07:27 <Taneb> I was thinking about a different Linux
06:07:56 <zzo38> OK, install a different Linux distribution. (I don't know which one you want.)
06:10:01 <Taneb> Bike, I don't know much about nix
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06:13:33 <Bike> taneb: is that a problem
06:18:03 <Taneb> I'll give it a go :)
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06:35:39 <Taneb> Okay, now I have an SD card that has the power to boot nixOS
06:36:18 <kmc> fuck yeah nixos
06:37:27 <kmc> please provide nixos trip report
06:39:08 <Taneb> Decided to go for the minimum install
06:39:55 <Taneb> An error occured in stage 1 of the boot process
06:40:07 <shachaf> i, too, would be interested in a nixos trip report
06:40:19 <kmc> shachaf: do you like my ongoing [rust trip report]
06:40:42 <kmc> it goes on
06:40:54 <elliott> is that anything like kmc's other trip reports?
06:41:04 <elliott> yes it's a drugz joke I'm sorry
06:41:23 <kmc> i haven't given many trip reports here I think
06:41:32 <shachaf> elliott: i think that was kmc's drugz joke
06:42:08 <shachaf> elliott, punch-line pincher
06:43:19 <Taneb> Decided to run Memtest and now my screen is full of dots
06:43:49 <shachaf> kmc: can we have another trip report
06:44:07 <shachaf> are you supposed to produce trip reports during or after
06:45:28 <kmc> check erowid
06:45:43 <kmc> they say write drunk, edit sober
06:46:49 <shachaf> what if it's a drugz that makes you more sober than usual
06:46:51 <elliott> is kmc going to put his rust trip report on erowid
06:47:36 <Taneb> Update: my screen is still full of dots
06:47:46 <shachaf> kmc: should i bring the mölkky back with me
06:47:59 <shachaf> i'd need something to put it in
06:48:05 <kmc> zardoz has spoken
06:51:33 <shachaf> kmc: why do mozilla server people get +q and +o simultaneously
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06:56:28 <Taneb> Still dots but they make a different noise
06:59:27 <kmc> tempest for eliza
07:04:35 <Taneb> Still dots, same noise
07:06:45 <shachaf> same as the original or as the different
07:07:41 <Taneb> The noise comes from the fan
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07:32:39 <Taneb> The dots have stopped while I was having breakfast
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07:36:43 <Jafet> `rungcc struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld\n", t->tv_nsec);
07:36:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rungcc: not found
07:36:56 <Jafet> `gccrun struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld\n", t->tv_nsec);
07:37:00 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c:20: error: ‘CLOCK_REALTIME’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c:20: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once \ /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c:20: error: for each function it appears in.) \ /tmp/gccrun.
07:38:50 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nmain(){struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld\n", t->tv_nsec);}\n' > /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
07:38:52 <HackEgo> /tmp/tmp.c:3: warning: return type defaults to ‘int’ \ /tmp/tmp.c:3:68: warning: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/tmp.c:3: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c:4:1: warning: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c:4: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c:4: error:
07:39:21 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nmain(){struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld", t->tv_nsec);}\n' > /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
07:39:23 <HackEgo> /tmp/tmp.c:3: warning: return type defaults to ‘int’ \ /tmp/tmp.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/tmp.c:3: error: invalid type argument of ‘->’ (have ‘struct timespec’)
07:39:47 <Jafet> `run sed -i -e 's/->/./' /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
07:39:49 <HackEgo> sed: can't read /tmp/tmp.c: No such file or directory
07:43:33 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nint main(){struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld ns", t.tv_nsec);}\n' > /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
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08:14:15 <shachaf> kmc: E.g. https://github.com/jeremywohl/nacl/blob/master/crypto_verify/16/ref/verify.c , it looks like.
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10:04:46 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 13h 10m 34s ago: my impression of my dreams is that they're a window into something profoundly lacking in logical structure.
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11:16:24 <katla> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHhjwwSZ9MA
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12:22:24 <fizzie> Huh, weird. "lvs" shows a couple of logical volumes, but they don't show up in dmsetup ls.
12:23:38 <fizzie> Their status is "NOT available". Hm.
12:24:15 <fizzie> I guess maybe I need to lvchange -ay them, or something.
12:32:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RWDP that's probably not a good sign.
12:32:54 <fizzie> [198553.606614] quiet_error: 2563528 callbacks suppressed that neither.
12:33:24 <fizzie> (I'm going through a pile of disks I found, to see if there's anything interesting before wiping them/throwing them away.)
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13:21:29 <fizzie> "Detect disks done, no any drive found."
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13:26:26 <Deewiant> Try ddrescue if you're interested in whether those erroring directories have anything.
13:27:43 <fizzie> I'm not that interested in this particular case.
13:28:30 <fizzie> (Since they're (probably) just failed disks from earlier RAID setups I've kept for no particular reason.)
13:53:32 <fizzie> Wonder why dd|nc over a gigabit-ethernet link is so slow. (Switched to using an old computer because the rest of the disks were IDE, and my USB dock only does SATA.)
13:54:35 <fizzie> Oh, the old box only has a 100BaseT network chip in it. Well, that explains it.
13:56:29 <fizzie> (It's doing 93.3 Mbps.)
13:59:14 <fizzie> Maybe I should've done the snooping on the computer in question, locally, instead of doing this copying stuff; it's going to take like four hours to copy this 160G disk image over.
14:01:16 <fizzie> That could be worth the effort for the next partition. (Don't want to stop this current operation.)
14:01:34 <fizzie> Wonder if just dd | gzip | nc ... nc | gzip > file will work.
14:01:54 <Deewiant> You probably want gzip -d on the other end; other than that it should.
14:02:24 <Deewiant> Make sure that gzip isn't too slow, though.
14:04:09 <fizzie> What's that fast-but-okay compression thing, lzo?
14:04:25 <Deewiant> The command-line program is called lzop.
14:04:43 <fizzie> Will try that out, then.
14:05:27 <fizzie> I'd also try restarting the dd if it allowed a "skip=" argument in bytes instead of just as a multiple of ibs/bs.
14:05:58 <Deewiant> treat 'skip=N' as a byte count (iflag only)
14:06:19 <fizzie> I've been looking for that for *years*! Is that a new thing?
14:06:54 <fizzie> It's at the very end of the flags list, I think it might be.
14:06:54 <Deewiant> It seems like the kind of thing that tends to be GNU-only, but I don't know how new it is.
14:07:10 <fizzie> dd: add 'skip_bytes' and 'count_bytes' operands Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 13:25:46 +0100
14:07:18 <fizzie> Well, new or not, very nice.
14:08:30 <Deewiant> It's been suggested at least as early as 2008, when this was given as a workaround (evidently found in 'info dd'): (dd bs=1 skip=123456 count=0 && dd bs=8192)
14:08:58 <fizzie> Heh, I've just been using bs=1 skip=N directly and lived with the speed.
14:09:42 <Deewiant> Author: Jim Meyering <jim@meyering.net>
14:09:44 <Deewiant> Date: Sat Dec 2 08:12:56 2000 +0000
14:09:46 <Deewiant> Undo most of the changes since 2000-11-24, since we've
14:09:48 <Deewiant> documented a standard way to do it.
14:09:50 <Deewiant> (skip_bytes, seek_bytes): Remove.
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14:11:01 <Deewiant> Author: Jérémy Compostella <jeremy.compostella@gmail.com>
14:11:03 <Deewiant> Date: Sat Feb 4 15:25:54 2012 +0100
14:11:05 <Deewiant> dd: add count_bytes, skip_bytes and seek_bytes flags
14:11:17 <fizzie> "dd: invalid input flag: `skip_bytes'" aw, dang.
14:11:20 <Deewiant> Author: Jim Meyering <jim@meyering.net>
14:11:21 <Deewiant> Date: Sat Nov 25 08:54:58 2000 +0000
14:11:25 <Deewiant> adapt skip to skip either by bytes or by blocks
14:11:55 <Deewiant> So originally added 2000-11-25, then removed a week later with the documented workaround, and then reädded 2012-02-04.
14:12:05 <Deewiant> I wonder if they just forgot that they didn't intend to add it.
14:14:28 <Deewiant> Anyway, that's GNU coreutils 8.16 or newer, then.
14:14:39 <fizzie> root@dumper:~# dd --version
14:14:52 <fizzie> Should've deboostrap jessie'd instead of debootstrap wheezy'ing.
14:15:05 <fizzie> I don't really know why I went with wheezy anyway.
14:18:08 <fizzie> Gads, coreutils' configure is incredibly long.
14:18:20 <Deewiant> stat no longer reports a negative file size as a huge positive number.
14:18:22 <Deewiant> [bug present since 'stat' was introduced in fileutils-4.1.9]
14:18:22 <fizzie> I suppose it makes sense it tests every single thing known to man, but anyway.
14:20:26 <fizzie> "core/coreutils-8.21/src/dd if=/dev/sda1 bs=32M skip=15639748608 iflag=skip_bytes | lzop | nc 10.102.76.2 14141" yay
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14:21:47 <fizzie> Annnd... it does 70 Mbit/s.
14:24:04 <fizzie> Curiously enough, top says 80% CPU idle, so it's not bound by that.
14:26:37 <Deewiant> Was that the speed across the network link or in total
14:27:03 <fizzie> In total, looking at the resulting file size.
14:27:15 <fizzie> Bah, I'll just let it copy as it likes.
14:27:27 <Deewiant> Is the receiving end CPU-bound? :-P
14:29:59 <fizzie> It certainly shouldn't.
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14:30:31 <fizzie> CPU use 13% and it's keeping all four cores at 0.8 GHz (the lowest setting).
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14:32:12 <fizzie> Now the plain copy is also writing 75 Mbps. The strangest.
14:32:13 <fizzie> I mean, it could theoretically be IO-bound on the receiving end, but e.g. the RAID resync on this disk was fast as anything.
14:33:01 <Deewiant> If it's a brokenish disk then it's of course likely to slow down in certain areas.
14:33:26 <fizzie> This one shouldn't (knocking on wood) be broken, it's just the disk that was in the old box before.
14:33:58 <Deewiant> Well, being old is enough to make it likely, I think. AIUI it can happen a lot even in new disks.
14:34:48 <fizzie> I *could* try a plain dd-to-null read benchmark, but I'm not sure I care to.
14:36:07 <Deewiant> http://static.usenix.org/event/hotos/tech/final_files/Krevat.pdf
14:36:09 <Deewiant> "[U]nder normal operation, disk bandwidth to/from corresponding regions of a set of disks can be expected to vary by 20% or more from the fastest to the slowest."
14:36:45 <Deewiant> Ah, that quote's more about performance between seemingly identical disks. Well, it refers to intradisk variance too.
14:37:16 <fizzie> I'd still expect a bit more than 10 MB/s out of it.
14:37:24 <fizzie> I can't ever read the smartctl --all output at all.
14:39:10 <fizzie> The rest of the disks are fortunately going to be smaller.
14:39:39 <Deewiant> Having a lot of reällocated sectors is one indicator, at least.
14:41:22 <fizzie> 80G, 250G, 2.5G, 120G and 30G. Huh, one's even bigger.
14:41:39 <fizzie> The big one has "broken @64M" scribbled on top of it.
14:41:49 <fizzie> 5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 005 Pre-fail Always - 0
14:53:21 <fizzie> Was thinking maybe a filesystem-level copy for the second partition would be smarter, but it's 102G used of 115G in df, so probably not much of a win.
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16:48:58 <zzo38> There was the ZZT game "The Secret of Cannibal Island" and I like the music, so I made a .NSF with more fancy music such as adding chords; it is 2A03+VRC7. It seems like pretty good in my opinion! It is: http://2a03.free.fr/dl.php?file=4151 for binary, http://2a03.free.fr/dl.php?file=4150 for source.
16:51:45 <zzo38> I cannot find the Wikipedia articles for a free ring; it redirects to something else.
16:51:54 <coppro> zzo38: try the arxiv maybe
16:52:00 <coppro> or a proper academic library
16:52:08 <coppro> way better than wikipedia
16:52:37 <katla> what is a free ring
16:52:38 <zzo38> Yes, it might help, but I wrote this idea of what I thought might be a "free ring" and a "free commutative ring"; do you know any things about free ring?
16:52:56 <katla> zzo38, i dont think any one uses the term
16:53:23 <zzo38> Did I write about it correctly though?
16:53:38 <katla> what did you write
16:54:36 <zzo38> An element of a free ring over a set S is a signed multiset of lists of elements from S.
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16:55:18 <katla> is that like polynomials in S?
16:55:39 <zzo38> A bit like that, I think.
16:56:22 <zzo38> (If it is a free commutative ring, then it should be "of multisets" rather than "of lists".)
16:56:47 <Bike> a set, not a field?
16:57:17 <zzo38> Yes, a set, not a field, is what I an trying to mean (I don't know what it is called but I thought it might be called a free ring).
16:58:22 <katla> it might be callled the ring of polynomials
16:59:22 <katla> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_ring#The_polynomial_ring_in_several_variables no?
17:00:44 <fizzie> zzo38: Do you happen to know what are these "Xnn" effects I see in some S3M files?
17:01:45 <zzo38> fizzie: I think it is panning?
17:02:17 <fizzie> It seems to be panning in Impulse Tracker and others.
17:02:28 <fizzie> The official Scream Tracker help files don't mention X at all.
17:03:03 <fizzie> (It has S8x for setting pan position.)
17:03:06 <zzo38> katla: OK, well, "free commutative ring" does seem like it might be what I have defined, although they give a different definition.
17:03:57 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know, then. I have OpenMPT for playing .S3M and so on, so I tried creating a new file and entering a "X" effect and it says it is panning.
17:04:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's worth checking whether Scream Tracker itself does anything with them. They could be extensions.
17:05:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Scream Tracker doesn't support panning except on GUS, though. Schism (which AIUI is an Impulse Tracker clone) does panning with it.
17:05:17 <zzo38> katla: (I think their definition probably ends up being equivalent to what I am thinking of, though.)
17:05:27 <fizzie> I guess the X values in this file would make sense if it were panning.
17:06:25 <zzo38> fizzie: Then perhaps at least in that file, it is supposed to be panning.
17:10:57 <zzo38> (Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything about "signed multiset", except for the "Free abelian groups are formal sums...they may be seen as signed finite multisets..." paragraph, and this is what I mean by "signed multiset".)
17:11:45 <katla> are you using thse free rings for anythin
17:12:39 <zzo38> I think a multimana in Icosahedral RPG makes free commutative ring over the set {w,u,b,r,g}.
17:13:19 <zzo38> So yes I am using these free rings for something.
17:14:39 <zzo38> It is certainly different than other systems.
17:31:48 <elliott> "Communication of delicious has not been included because to children all confectionery, especially
17:31:51 <elliott> chocolate confectionery, is delicious."
17:32:07 <elliott> this marketing report thing about a relaunch of Curly-Wurlys is great and I have no idea why I am reading it
17:32:26 -!- elliott has set topic: Communication of deilcious has not been included | Хммм, тхис стуфф реаллы сеемс то ворк | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:32:33 -!- elliott has set topic: Communication of delicious has not been included | Хммм, тхис стуфф реаллы сеемс то ворк | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:33:29 <Deewiant> Does Cyrillic script count as an esolang or why is it in the topic
17:36:37 <Deewiant> The language is, but the alphabet used isn't
17:36:52 <elliott> I agree, that is not the English alphabet
17:37:06 <Deewiant> Just wondering if there's a point to it
17:37:42 <Taneb> Only one person knows that
17:39:11 <elliott> "These ideas were put into qualitative research in animatic form and exposed to children aged 6–11
17:39:14 <elliott> years old. Children under 6 were excluded because they are a little too young to use in research."
17:43:25 <fizzie> It's just like animal testing, except with children.
18:02:35 <kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children
18:02:51 <kmc> so like they had her hold a stuffed animal and spin in circles and then try to walk in a straight line, or something
18:03:19 <kmc> the stuffed animal is just to make the kids not freak out, but they can't very well omit that in the control!
18:03:30 <shachaf> fizzie: not so much "except" as "in particular"
18:03:33 <zzo38> Would the kind of stuffed animal and the kind of tiles on the floor affect something?
18:06:23 <kmc> shachaf: what's with the return expression in that code
18:07:31 <elliott> kmc: can you get good money for that
18:07:42 <elliott> I am totally up for being a professional stuffed-animal-holder-and-circle-spinner
18:07:51 <kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah
18:08:31 <Fiora> can I be a professional stuffed animal holder
18:08:49 <kmc> nacl constant time compare
18:08:49 <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
18:09:17 <kmc> just psych studies, not like medical studies where they inject you with things
18:09:35 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, it might be good idea having such a control protocol to avoid that kind of bias.
18:09:39 <kmc> she did one study at MIT Media Lab that involved collaborating with robots to rescue survivors of an earthquake, or something
18:09:42 <kmc> that sounded pretty fun
18:09:53 <kmc> another one where she had to brush her teeth and open doors with her non-dominant hand for 2 weeks
18:09:58 <kmc> which was like a willpower training thing
18:10:52 <shachaf> kmc: I think it always returns -1 differentbits is nonzero.
18:10:58 <Deewiant> And report how often she lapsed to her dominant hand, or what?
18:11:55 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children [...] <+kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
18:12:00 <HackEgo> 1087) <+kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children [...] <+kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
18:12:30 <kmc> Deewiant: no; they had some willpower-testing task before and after the 2 weeks
18:12:42 <kmc> yeah the sample bias is unfortunate
18:13:58 <kmc> remember how a few years back the FCC auctioned off billions of dollars of radio spectrum? that auction was designed according to studies done on my friends in college
18:14:00 <shachaf> (By nonzero I mean 1-255.)
18:14:21 <kmc> who used the proceeds from the auction games to buy weed and plastic ball pit balls
18:15:13 <Jafet> I want a plastic ball pit
18:15:13 <elliott> wait, what did they study?
18:15:14 <shachaf> billions of dollars' worth, i hope
18:15:18 <olsner> why would they need to design a new kind of auction for that?
18:15:30 <kmc> i'm not sure
18:16:14 <olsner> maybe they could've just redone the auction until they were satisfied with the result
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19:32:44 <fizzie> Disk-dumping news: the 3.5G disk is causing like 30-second delays before BIOS detects them, and now "ata1: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0)" "ata1: SRST failed" errors on boot.
19:32:49 <fizzie> It seems: quite flaky.
19:34:13 <fizzie> "sda: sda1 sda2 < sda5 sda6 >" well, at least it found some partitions there.
19:35:49 <fizzie> Copying seems to work fine.
19:36:39 <fizzie> There also seems to be DOS (w/ 4DOS) and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 on it.
19:38:16 <fizzie> But also a \BOOT directory with GRUB, some kernel, and a couple of what I think are boot floppy images.
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19:39:10 <fizzie> Hm, seems that there's been Windows 98 installed with F:\ as the system drive. Curious configuration.
19:42:14 <fizzie> (It's also making this clicking sort of noise when I write on it.)
19:43:26 <fizzie> And The Incredible Machine 3.
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20:19:18 <zzo38> Although I cannot put the Uselessness RPG stuff in a git repository and it won't help (and because I am working on paper), but maybe it can help if the stuff from the paper can also be put in some wiki; that way all idea can be written and discussed too.
20:24:47 <Koen_> I fucking hate git repositories right now
20:25:30 <Koen_> my new school uses one to collect our work and we lose all access rights when the due time is over
20:26:10 <Koen_> and you get this annoying "could not read from remote repository, please check that you have the correct access rights" if you try to git push one second too late
20:26:58 <Koen_> and every night at 23h42 you can hear screams of despair from every student who got that message
20:27:16 <Koen_> and also cries of victory from those who pushed one second before the deadline
20:29:24 <olsner> the perils of shturmovshchina
20:31:08 <Koen_> also there were those who did the work *not at the last moment* but that's cheating imo
20:32:34 <olsner> you should switch to something more ancient like CVS
20:32:37 <olsner> that should give you plenty of valid CVS-ate-my-homework excuses
20:32:52 <Koen_> the nfs ate my work
20:32:59 <olsner> (of course it'll occasionally actually do that, but you have backups right?)
20:33:01 <Koen_> like three times a day every day of the first two weeks
20:33:11 <Koen_> yes I did have backup
20:33:21 <Koen_> both via the git and in other folders on the machine
20:33:32 <Koen_> THE NFS MANAGED TO DESTROY THE BACKUPS
20:33:50 <Koen_> somehow it's intelligent and knows which files to make disappear
20:34:52 <Koen_> also sometimes I'm writing stuff on emacs and it will randomly erase a few lines in the file and replace them with "node 4.6.1 is not responding... node 4.6.1 is alive again"
20:35:23 <pikhq> Seems to me that it's not git's fault at all, but rather the fault of NFS.
20:35:39 <Koen_> definitely the nfs yes
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20:40:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/iJRf seems that it's indeed ddrescue time.
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20:45:39 <oerjan> <madbr> is there a pattern of binary or trinary digits that stays the same or mostly the same when multiplied by 3^n / 2^m
20:46:29 <oerjan> someone is thinking about the collatz conjecture...
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20:56:09 <zzo38> Koen_: That then might mean that git is no good for that purpose.
20:56:48 <Koen_> the git is good, the nfs is bad
20:57:01 <Koen_> and I suspect they purposefully did nothing to make things better
20:57:20 <oerjan> <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a "free ring" (as in mathematical)? <-- yes. rings are a variety (essentially, defined by equations) and all varieties have free objects. (commutative rings are also a variety.)
20:57:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Is it the one I have defined?
20:58:42 <zzo38> Day of Zeux as a due time in 24 hours where the time you start the upload (if you use FTP) is the due time instead of when it is finished. That might allow cheating though. My own Z-Comp does something a bit different: You must submit the SHA-1 hash of the file before the deadline.
20:59:35 <oerjan> zzo38: yes i think so, as long as the second order multiset (for addition) can have negative number of an element
21:00:54 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is what I meant by a signed multiset
21:03:32 <oerjan> btw fields are _not_ a variety, division by zero messes up the ability to define it by just equations.
21:04:27 <zzo38> OK; I didn't use fields anyways though.
21:04:41 <oerjan> (e.g. it makes the "obvious" equation x*(1/x) = 1 have an exception)
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21:26:08 <oerjan> <zzo38> I cannot find the Wikipedia articles for a free ring; it redirects to something else. <-- there's a single-sentence definition buried inside the redirected article
21:26:42 <oerjan> it's probably technically correct, if not very illuminating
21:27:29 <Bike> revelation of the day: pedaling a bike requires metabolic work
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21:29:00 <oerjan> zzo38: it's actually equivalent to what you said for noncommutative rings, since a free Z-module is really just a signed multiset
21:29:25 <oerjan> (it's also the same as a free abelian group)
21:30:32 <oerjan> and in another sentence in the introduction, it implies that the commutative analogy to a free algebra is a polynomial ring
21:32:11 <oerjan> zzo38: so another way to define a free commutative ring is as a polynomial ring with the generators as variables and Z as the ring of coefficients. i think.
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21:32:39 <Bike> https://github.com/search?q=path%3Awp-config.php I can't decide if github should turn off search forever, or just auto-break every single fucking dumbass system
21:32:45 * pikhq notes he should not take levofloxacin again.
21:32:51 * pikhq also hopes that never comes up again.
21:33:00 <oerjan> all of these should be equivalent to the category theoretical definition of a free object in the relevant category, of course.
21:33:38 <oerjan> (also, the left adjoint to the underlying set functor)
21:39:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Ah, OK, so I suppose those things would be it too.
21:39:53 <oerjan> zzo38: anyway to prove that your formulation is correct you can note (1) the distributive law allows you to normalize every algebraic expression in a ring to your form (2) assigning suitable integer values to each generator (essentially the same as choosing a homomorphism into the integers) allows you to prove that different multisets cannot represent the same free ring element. (i am assuming the later will work; i haven't actually written it out.)
21:41:52 <oerjan> or well for (2) you could just note they give different _real_ polynomials, which is also a kind of homomorphism.
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21:47:38 <Koen_> I'm trying to connect to the wiki for the first time in a month
21:47:58 <Koen_> I can nly remember the firs two characters of my password
21:49:06 <Koen_> they had a thing at the school about you being respnsible for anything done with your account - in particular, if someone forgot to lock their session, you were encourage to use it to do bad things
21:49:15 <oerjan> let me guess, you've never registered your email either *evil cackle*
21:49:30 <Koen_> so i took the habit to change my password every three days
21:51:06 <Bike> "fuck security"
21:52:03 <Koen_> yeah hum bike you have no idea how many people ended up with porn as their desktop background image / browser home page because they didn't lock their session
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21:52:44 <oerjan> did someone sue the school to get an end to this madness twh
21:52:48 <Koen_> or fancy aliases in the terminal
21:53:23 <Koen_> also I sent a ticket to the staff from someone else's account, volunteering to clean every single screen in the school because they were full of fingerprints
21:53:28 <Bike> yeah this mostly seems like a pointless annoyance.
21:53:29 <oerjan> Koen_: i note you've still not commented on my guess about your email twh
21:53:46 <Koen_> I just received a temporary password oerjan
21:53:54 <Koen_> now I've got to make up yet another new password
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21:54:17 <Koen_> thanks Bike NOW I'VE GOT ONE POSSIBILITY LESS
21:54:45 <oerjan> surely you never considered a 6 char password a possibility in the first place twnh
21:55:15 <Koen_> someone please tell me what that new acronym stands for
21:55:50 <oerjan> hm you haven't been here in a while i guess
21:56:06 <oerjan> there's been an explosion of hth use hth
21:56:14 <Koen_> yes I remember the hth days
21:56:15 <Bike> only in oerjanland
21:56:45 <oerjan> it may have slightly subsided.
21:58:45 <zzo38> I think I may change the name lookup in this program from a simple list to a hash table in a bit similar to how it is implemented in TeX (but using linked lists for resolving hash collisions). Do you think this will be OK?
21:59:26 <Bike> does tex have built in hash tables
22:00:07 <zzo38> TeX uses hash tables to lookup control words; they are described in section 256 of the source file.
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22:12:27 <zzo38> I think I should put these things I wrote on this paper for the Uselessness RPG 1 into some wiki as well; do you have some wiki and section of wiki for putting it in to, which would be suitable for this purpose?
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22:31:51 <Bike> kmc: so are you electrocuted now
22:36:30 <kmc> oh is this re my tweet
22:37:00 <kmc> no i just destroyed 10cm of my LED strip
22:37:21 <kmc> out of 20m total, so not a big deal
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22:37:33 <kmc> if you blow up one controller you can just solder onto the next one along
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22:50:52 <zzo38> What are you trying to make?
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23:52:09 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrong-way_concurrency
23:53:25 <Bike> makes you think.
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23:56:43 <Bike> as foretold in the prophecy
23:58:08 <shachaf> imo wrong end of washington
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00:00:21 <Bike> uh i was at the other end before and nobody cared then!!
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00:02:10 <shachaf> yes well it wasn't the place to be then!!
00:03:01 <Bike> are you insulting me
00:03:12 <tswett> "At least two roads run concurrently with their own opposite direction." The obvious question is, why not just skip that part?
00:04:08 <Bike> it's like a north-south and a south-north road both turn west. no big deal
00:04:33 <tswett> Yeah, but if there's a single road carrying both directions of a single route, then the route must have a cul-de-sac.
00:06:11 <Bike> it could be like a half diamond arrangement.
00:06:31 <Bike> north route goes up, turns west at a corner, later turns north by northeast, rejoins southern self later up
00:07:29 <tswett> Uh, lemme think about that.
00:09:02 <tswett> I can see, like, sort of a rectangle arrangement.
00:09:29 <kmc> zzo38: LED accent lighting for my living room
00:09:40 <tswett> Beyond the north and south ends of the rectangle, you just have the northbound part of the freeway on the east side and the southbound part on the west side, like usual.
00:10:31 <tswett> But from the south end of the rectangle, the northbound road turns left and follows the south edge of the rectangle west, then turns right and follows the west edge of the rectangle north.
00:10:47 <tswett> Then it turns right again, following the north edge east, and finally turns left again and continues on north.
00:11:23 <tswett> So traffic goes clockwise around the rectangle, and the north and south edges of the rectangle are wrong-way concurrencies.
00:12:05 <tswett> *Why* they'd do that, I have no idea. Perhaps, say, the downtown part of the city is south of the rectangle, and there are a bunch of businesses west of the rectangle.
00:12:20 <tswett> People traveling out of the city are more likely to want to visit businesses along the way than people traveling into it.
00:13:05 <tswett> "Business" meaning a building providing a service to the public, rather than an office or factory.
00:16:30 <Jafet> You just don't realize how great it is to be able to reverse direction without an interchange
00:16:37 <shachaf> Bike: it's the place to be because i'm here
00:16:54 <Bike> ok well bad timing
00:23:06 <oerjan> since the discussion started before 0 UTC, i should assume it is just coincidental that wikipedia has a highway as today's featured article
00:23:37 <oerjan> or maybe Gracenotes sneak peeked
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00:26:19 <shachaf> i heard Gracenotes has ""connections""
00:27:57 <Bike> they choose them in advance...
00:28:36 <shachaf> i thought they flipped a coin at midnight
00:28:40 <Jafet> Since the discussion is about highways, I should assume that oerjan didn't actually read the wikipedia main page for the fun of it
00:28:53 <shachaf> d100000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00:28:53 <lambdabot> shachaf: 73274656582344544685947877970172273676770
00:29:00 <shachaf> d1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00:29:00 <lambdabot> shachaf: 659790748428201985583386173652174207609455971330297358345175532...
00:29:07 <Jafet> I don't think they have that many featured articles.
00:29:09 <oerjan> itt Jafet is making some wrong assumptions
00:29:31 <Bike> apparently the next article is Barton Fink.
00:30:31 <monotone> tswett: The actual explanation for at least one of those cases is that it's between two interchanges that don't have full directional access.
00:31:19 <oerjan> Bike: NOOOOO NO SPOILERS
00:32:16 <monotone> https://maps.google.com/maps?vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=40.428149,-80.025487&spn=0.009555,0.01929&t=m&z=16 # The route enters from the NE with I-376 and leaves to the SE with SR 51.
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00:54:36 <tswett> Bike: I'll ddddd5000 for you!
00:58:48 <shachaf> @@ @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice d5000
01:00:49 <shachaf> hm i want to make a "thus spoke Bike" pun sometime
01:00:55 <shachaf> but there's no good time for it
01:00:59 <shachaf> so someone else can make it instead
01:05:55 <oerjan> i think that pun would just be tiresome
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01:08:46 <Gracenotes> oerjan, shachaf: I looked up Wrong Way Corrigan, because of watching a QI episode
01:08:51 <shachaf> oerjan: it wasn't meant to be a chain
01:09:09 <Gracenotes> there is a queue for front pages featured article, in fact, it goes many months into the future
01:09:36 <oerjan> shachaf: let's just gear down
01:10:25 <tswett> Hum, hum. What is 5, anyway? It's 1 + 4, and yet it's also 2 + 3...
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01:10:50 <oerjan> tswett: it's like addition isn't injective or something!
01:11:12 <Bike> do we really know five
01:11:16 <tswett> What's the one true pair of numbers that adds up to 5?
01:11:37 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it's 1 and 4. It can't be 2 and 3.
01:11:46 <shachaf> oerjan: you'll make me cranky
01:11:48 <oerjan> but 2 and 3 are prime!
01:11:50 <tswett> But then again, 5 is a Fibonacci number, by virtue of the fact that it's 2 + 3...
01:12:03 <zzo38> tswett: Zero and five.
01:12:04 <tswett> oerjan: who cares that it's the sum of two prime numbers?
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01:13:01 <shachaf> Bike's true Twitter account: https://twitter.com/ThePunBike
01:13:18 <oerjan> "In Cantonese, "five" sounds like the word "not" (character: 唔). When five appears in front of a lucky number, e.g. "58", the result is considered unlucky." chinese numerology just gets weirder.
01:13:33 <oerjan> tswett: primitive people!
01:13:37 <tswett> Help, what letter comes after Z?
01:13:47 <zzo38> tswett: In what alphabet?
01:13:52 <tswett> zzo38: the English one.
01:13:54 <oerjan> also don't listen to the swedes hth
01:13:56 <tswett> Wait, I remember. It's &.
01:15:50 <Bike> and there you have it.
01:16:04 <shachaf> Hmm, clearly SZ comes after Z.
01:16:06 <zzo38> nooodl: I think they meant the English alphabet, not the ASCII alphabet, isn't it?
01:16:15 <tswett> Right, the English alphabet.
01:16:30 <shachaf> @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord,Typeable)
01:16:42 <shachaf> @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord,Enum)
01:16:42 <lambdabot> Can't make a derived instance of `Enum Nat':
01:16:50 <tswett> P x y z æ = x z (y z æ)
01:17:02 <Bike> why can't it make Enum?
01:17:32 <shachaf> Because the type isn't, what's-it-called. An enumeration.
01:18:00 <nooodl> how does it derive Ord
01:18:03 <zzo38> If you are using non-ASCII alphabets then you can even use Greek or whatever too you aren't even limited to AE ligature and so on.
01:18:14 <Bike> maybe it just didn't get to the Ord error.
01:18:20 <tswett> I demand that it be referred to in Unicode as a Latin letter.
01:18:27 <tswett> Hey Phennies. I'm talking to you.
01:19:02 <nooodl> @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord)
01:19:03 <shachaf> compare Z Z = EQ; compare Z (S _) = LT; compare (S _) Z = GT; compare (S x) (S y) = compare x y
01:19:09 <zzo38> OK, call it a Latin letter, if you want to
01:19:20 <shachaf> Are you asking about the rules for deriving Ord in general?
01:19:22 <nooodl> shachaf: wouldn't switching LT and GT give you a valid Ord instance?
01:19:35 <shachaf> Yes, but not the one it derives.
01:19:37 <zzo38> nooodl: That would be the reverse ordering; it is still valid
01:19:38 <Bike> wouldn't that quesiton be true of like any ord instance
01:20:07 <nooodl> i guess i am talking about the rules for deriving Ord in general, yeah.
01:20:10 <zzo38> Many classes can be made a backward instance from the existing one, such as order, monoid, applicative
01:20:46 <tswett> I guess P x y z = B (x z) (y z), so P x y = S (B B x) y, so P x = S (B B x), so P = B S (B B).
01:20:56 <shachaf> nooodl: I recommend seeing the Report for the exact rules.
01:21:02 <nooodl> @let data Nat = S Nat | Z deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord)
01:21:03 <shachaf> The order of the summands matters, thought.
01:21:26 <shachaf> (It also matters for Enum.)
01:21:49 <shachaf> @let newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall a. (f a -> a) -> a }
01:21:49 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled
01:21:52 <zzo38> I think it would be better making it you can deriving by macros instead of built-in. I think many things in Haskell ought be macros rather than built-in, would make them better.
01:21:59 <coppro> you could even make data Rev = (Ord a) => Rev {getRev :: a}; instance (Ord a) => Ord (Rev a) where { compare = flip compare `on` Rev }
01:22:12 <coppro> replace the last Rev with getRev
01:22:25 <tswett> But, on the other hand, we could just as well say P x y z = B (y z) (x z), meaning P x y = S (B B y) x, meaning P x = uhh hang on
01:22:26 <shachaf> You could, but why, when it's already in Data.Ord?
01:22:32 <zzo38> coppro: Yes you can make things like that for other classes backward too
01:26:30 <tswett> P x = B (C S x) (B B), so P = B (C B (B B)) (C S). Yeah, I like the other one better.
01:27:13 <tswett> So what does it mean to do something five times? Do you do it twice and then thrice, or thrice and then twice? I'm pretty sure you do it thrice and then twice.
01:27:44 <tswett> And what's 6? Is it two threes, or three twos? Pretty sure it's three twos.
01:27:59 <zzo38> You do it once, and then once more time, and then once more time after that, and then one more time, and then one more. Now it is five times.
01:28:43 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, but is that once and then (once and then (once and then (once and then once))), or (((once and then once) and then once) and then once) and then once, or ((once and then once) and then once) and then (once and then once), or what?
01:30:02 <zzo38> tswett: It doesn't matter because it is associative.
01:30:17 <tswett> You're probably right.
01:34:31 <tswett> What's 7? It must be what you get when you start with 1 and then double it and increment it twice.
01:35:23 <tswett> How about 10? Ooh, I hate that number.
01:35:25 <zzo38> Well, I suppose there are many ways to make seven, but really it is (1+1+1+1+1+1+1).
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01:44:51 <tswett> 10 is, of course, 5 choose 2. Though it happens to also be 5 *times* 2.
01:45:10 <shachaf> kmc: with, like, a restful json api and mobile apps and stuff
01:45:33 <shachaf> also if you make a web interface it should be on the public website
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02:26:13 <zzo38> For the Uselessness RPG 1 (the one with the picture), I was using OHRRPHCE but I decided not to, for a few reasons, one is that, they make some bad assumptions, such as that the player charaters are always human and the non player characters are never thieves and that an attack cannot have a script in it.
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02:51:32 <tswett> All right, let's write some strong AI.
02:53:16 <zzo38> Strong AI of what?
02:58:07 <tswett> An artificial intelligence that could successfully perform any intellectual task that a human being can.
02:58:53 <Bike> i meant rationality.
02:59:46 <tswett> Oh. Uh, the ability to come to conclusions that are reliably correct.
03:00:02 <Bike> That sounds pretty hard to quantify.
03:00:18 <zzo38> That would be better than an intellectual task that a human being can.
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03:24:18 <zzo38> Someone told me some of my ideas were good but I needed to write it out more carefully; there were also many defects in there system so I wrote those too, and I put them into all one file so I can just post the URL. However, I tried to tell them of these defect and society/gods but I can't because system is defective! I cannot access it at all because it is defective!
03:25:31 <Bike> are you going to have to drink hemlock
03:26:39 <zzo38> I don't expect so.
03:27:15 <kmc> zzo38 is mad as hell and not going to take it anymore
03:28:05 <pikhq> Y'know, some drugs have really shitty side effects.
03:28:14 <pikhq> "Spontaneous tendon rupture" is up there.
03:28:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Such as hemlock?
03:28:21 <coppro> pikhq: see, i try to avoid drugs
03:28:29 <coppro> you people are all crazy
03:28:30 <Bike> pikhq: what, seriously?
03:28:51 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, there's an antibiotic that can cause that.
03:29:10 <pikhq> coppro: See, when your testicles are in serious pain you're not likely to consider such things.
03:29:29 <coppro> and I'd probably consider it at that point
03:29:35 <coppro> not a fan of recreational drugs
03:29:43 <pikhq> "Infection of the testicles" is also a shitty thing.
03:29:52 <pikhq> I'm not much of a recreational drug guy either.
03:30:10 <kmc> re testicles
03:30:19 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's resolved.
03:30:24 <kmc> don't rupture your tendons and/or testicles
03:30:29 <Bike> testicular torsion
03:30:50 <pikhq> I'm just getting random skeletomuscular pain from the antibiotics. Which is a side effect which can show up fully 6 months later.
03:31:03 <pikhq> And hoping I don't actually rip a tendon.
03:31:07 <coppro> pikhq: oh, I thought you were
03:31:16 <coppro> well, best of luck with your tendons
03:31:39 <pikhq> coppro: Nope. I imbibe in alcohol in small quantities, and caffeine in absurd quantities.
03:32:06 <pikhq> And by "small quantities" I mean "I don't think I've ever had enough alcohol in my system that I could be charged with a DUI if I drove".
03:32:39 <Fiora> kmc: http://ix.cs.uoregon.edu/~butler/pubs/acsac12.pdf oh gosh, this is amazing
03:32:40 <Bike> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPLEDGE my personal favorite side effect: so bad you have to register with a national registry to take it
03:32:43 <Bike> it is an acne cure.
03:33:03 <Fiora> they wrote a MapReduce implementation that runs off of cloud web brosers like opera mini
03:34:00 <pikhq> Levofloxacin has some potentially frightening ones.
03:34:15 <pikhq> In rare cases it even kills your nerves!
03:34:37 <pikhq> In more common cases it just causes temporary paresthesias.
03:34:58 <pikhq> Y'know the feeling when a limb goes to sleep?
03:35:12 <pikhq> That's also the first sign that your nerves are dying.
03:35:38 <pikhq> So, yes. It has one non-serious side effect and a serious-as-fuck side effect that look initially similar.
03:38:44 <pikhq> Also neat is that the first sign of tendons rupturing is cracking in the joint.
03:38:51 <pikhq> My joints crack a lot anyways!
03:39:28 <pikhq> Suddenly I've become an old man. Woe. :P
03:39:56 <Fiora> what's the deal with joints cracking anyways, like, why does that happen
03:40:37 <pikhq> Temporary partial vacuum being created in the fluid in the joints.
03:40:49 <pikhq> The sound is the bubble of vacuum collapsing.
03:49:07 <kmc> i thought for a sec you were talking about false vacuum collapse
03:49:48 <Fiora> goodbye knee and body and planet and local group
03:50:39 <elliott> I thought the cause of joints cracking was subject to some debate
03:50:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_joints#Causes
03:51:13 <oerjan> the planets that debated it too furiously were wiped out
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03:51:41 <elliott> Medical doctor Donald Unger cracked the knuckles of his left hand every day for more than sixty years, but he did not crack the knuckles of his right hand. No arthritis or other ailments formed in either hand, earning him the 2009 Ig Nobel Prize in Medicine, a parody of the Nobel Prize.[8]
03:51:50 <elliott> that must have taken some discipline
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04:04:50 <kmc> learning about infosec is bad because then whenever a program crashes you wonder whether it was an exploit attempt
04:05:07 <zzo38> That's pretty good, and something to earn the Ig Nobel Prize for it looks like. Did he nominate himself or did someone else do so?
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04:07:33 <zzo38> Has anyone ever won the Nobel Prize and Ig Nobel Prize for the same thing? (There are some people that have won both prizes but for different things.)
04:08:50 <kmc> who has done what you said
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04:12:22 <zzo38> I think I should put these things I have on the paper for Uselessness RPG game also on some wiki, to make collaboration (because I also want idea/etc from other people too). Therefore, there is two copies. What wiki can this be put into, please?
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04:40:16 <zzo38> Would any existing one you know, work? Do you think the main Hackiki should work?
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04:52:55 <shachaf> ion: You use gnome-terminal, right? When you open a new terminal (e.g. Ctrl-Shift-N), does it open in the current directory or in ~?
04:54:18 <ion> shachaf: The current one.
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04:56:11 <shachaf> It stopped doing that for me for some reason.
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04:56:19 <shachaf> Maybe because of my recent apt-get upgrade?
04:58:47 <shachaf> Hmm, https://wiki.gnome.org/Terminal/FAQ#How_can_I_make_new_terminals_start_in_the_working_directory_of_the_current_terminal.3F
05:00:19 <shachaf> OK, it works with that script.
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07:30:37 <Taneb> GEDCOM recommends using the ANSEL character set
07:32:14 <Taneb> I suppose it does say they'll switch "eventually to UNICODE" and will only use ANSEL "until multi-byte handling becomes more common"
07:32:31 <Taneb> (the standard was written in '96, so I suppose multi-byte handling is a tad more common now)
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08:38:11 <Taneb> I am now terrified
08:38:33 <lambdabot> *** "terrify" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:38:33 <lambdabot> v 1: fill with terror; frighten greatly [syn: {terrify},
08:39:00 <Taneb> There are two universities looking at my exam results (which I have not seen) and deciding whether I'm worthy to attend
08:40:50 <fizzie> `run grep -h "that's terrible" wisdom/*
08:40:51 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
08:41:27 <fizzie> When will they finish looking?
08:41:54 <Taneb> fizzie, I found out their decisions on Thursday
09:14:13 <Taneb> It's the norm in England
09:14:59 <Taneb> Really, all it means for me is that I get my exam results at the same time as finding out if they're good enough to get into uni
09:16:16 <Taneb> You spelt both "awful" and "awesome" incorrectly in precisely opposite ways
09:16:57 <olsner> Taneb: it is possible it was done intentionally
09:17:20 <Taneb> It makes me queasy
09:17:24 <olsner> oklopol: sorry, that's not possible
09:20:41 <Gracenotes> 'aweful' can mean good, because you are full of awe
09:21:00 <Gracenotes> 'terrific' can mean bad, because you are full of terry?
09:21:58 <Jafet> Awful Lee Terry fic
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09:23:51 <shachaf> Is there anything you wouldn't read?
09:24:35 <Jafet> Things that read themselves
09:45:10 <katla> self reading book?
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13:06:47 <boily> good why is there cyrillicised english in the topic morning!
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13:13:18 <ion> Ooh, i was able to read it fully. (I had infer some of the letters.)
13:13:45 <ion> I have never tried to learn the Cyrillic alphabet, but it seems some of it has stuck by itself.
13:21:29 <fizzie> I did a single course of Russian at the university, and got a 5 (of 5) for it; didn't really learn any of the language in question (except to say "is this place free?", the first sentence of the first chapter of the "textbook"), but the alphabet I still know.
13:22:18 <boily> I'm trying to learn Armenian, but I am still confused by most of their letters.
13:23:52 <fizzie> I'm trying to write some notes in plaintext, and need \hat{x} for a point estimate of x; tried both ^x and x^, and they both look really silly when I also need \hat{x}^2 in the notes.
13:24:16 <fizzie> x^^2 is a no go, ^x^2 is almost as silly; (x^)^2 and (^x)^2 are passable but sill stilly.
13:24:52 <boily> $ \hat{x^2} $ doesn't work? (probably not. my off-the-head-latex is getting rusty.)
13:26:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't want the notes to look like LaTeX source.
13:26:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: "I just don't!"
13:27:25 <fizzie> boily: $\hat{x^2}$ would be a subtly different thing from $\hat{x}^2$, I think. (Both still probably render well in LaTeX.)
13:28:01 <katla> what about widehat
13:28:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: Use a instead of x and then you have â
13:28:38 <fizzie> katla: Okay, I think that might render even better, but it's still beside the point, which was about writing things that look good in plaintext.
13:28:50 <Deewiant> Or if you don't dislike combining characters, x̂
13:29:27 <fizzie> Deewiant: I... guess that might work. Or maybe I'll just call it Ex or something.
13:29:30 <Deewiant> The x̂ actually is more legible than the â in my font.
13:29:56 <fizzie> They're about the same here. (Both look like there's a bit of dust on the screen.)
13:30:42 <Deewiant> The â looks like dust but on the x it's actually quite clearly a circumflex
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13:48:14 <boily> yesterday I bought a d30 just to mess with my DM.
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13:53:19 <boily> I HAVE MY OUYA! :D
13:53:24 * boily squees like a fangirl
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14:11:12 <Roujo> boily: I wish I had mine >_>
14:12:54 <Roujo> Did your tracking ever work?
14:14:05 <boily> tracking as in delivery? or tracking as in the touchpad on the controller?
14:16:24 -!- Koen_ has joined.
14:18:35 <Roujo> Since mine never showed anything
14:18:38 <Roujo> Still doesn't, really
14:18:41 <Roujo> And I'm still waiting
14:19:16 <boily> never had any problem with tracking. I just had it stolen from my doorstep, so I had to wait for amazon to deliver a new one.
14:19:32 <boily> this time, I'm at the office, and I hold the infamous console in my own real physical meaty hands :D
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14:35:32 <Roujo> It just hope I get mine eventually
14:35:37 <Roujo> Support has been less-than-helpful
14:36:14 <Roujo> Which sucks, considering that I was a backer and all
14:36:32 <Roujo> You'd think they'd thank the backers for believing in them
14:37:06 <Roujo> But all I get are "we'll fix this within 48 hours, promised!" messages with no response
14:39:57 <`^_^v> hmmm, t-his stooff reyalli seyems to vork
14:41:32 <boily> Roujo: support from amazon was incredible in my case.
14:41:59 <Roujo> boily: That's just it. You get better support from retailers than from OUYA themselves
14:42:11 <Roujo> But since I got my OUYA directly from them, I'm just straight out of luck
14:42:38 <Roujo> I'm sorry if it sounds really bitter, I just got tired of running after them
14:43:07 <Roujo> I was so excited about the games I'd be able to make, I promoted the console to my friends and family
14:44:05 <Roujo> I even though "Hey, those people are doing something really nice, I'll get the Kickstarter Limited Edition console. It costs more, but they deserve the extra support."
14:44:16 <Roujo> And now this - no console, no money, no answer from support.
14:45:13 <Roujo> They told me they'd refund my international shipping (20$) since it's taking so long
14:45:24 <Roujo> They asked for my Paypal ID, which I supplied
14:45:33 <Roujo> I have yet to get anything there
14:45:44 <Roujo> They gave me 13,37$ as store credit to apologize two
14:45:51 <Roujo> It's a shame I need my OUYA to redeem it
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16:31:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/EIeN I don't know why, but all the "chromium chromium chromium chromium" was somehow amusing.
16:33:14 <katla> thats so flash player can crash in one tab and not ruin the others right?
16:33:42 <fizzie> Presumably also that Chromium itself can do it.
16:34:02 <fizzie> I've gotten the "He's dead, Jim" tabs for non-Flash pages.
16:40:01 -!- dessos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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16:43:30 <Roujo> So this exists: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
16:48:43 <Roujo> Think of the space you'll be saving!
16:49:17 <Roujo> If you want to store pi as a file on your disk...
16:49:26 <katla> theres no bitstring you can use to compress arbitrary strings with indices is there?
16:49:26 <Roujo> This file system makes it fit in a single byte!
16:50:02 <katla> or just make assumptions like i do
16:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it does it on a per-byte basis, so doubtless it significantly inflates file sizes
16:50:54 <Roujo> Well that's too bad
16:51:18 <Fiora> http://cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/barf.html This kind of reminds me of this
16:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (initially i thought the trick was using 'nonempty' to free a pigeonhole)
16:56:15 <Fiora> it's basically a parody/joke about cheating in compression benchmarks
16:56:25 <Fiora> because like, you can make it look like a file is much smaller than it is by storing data in the filename
16:56:45 <Fiora> I think nowadays they tar up all the files afterwards and count that, just to be sure? -_-
16:56:47 <katla> BARF extends this idea by trying 257 different algorithms and choosing the best one
16:57:53 <Roujo> What if we stored the index in pi?
16:59:28 <katla> you can't even use digits of pi to compress pi since it's computable
17:03:15 <katla> yes but no one can prove it
17:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i know it's not proven to be normal, but normality's a stronger condition
17:03:39 <katla> no can even prove that pi is irrational, they just say someone else did it
17:04:07 <katla> how is ita stronger condition
17:04:10 <katla> did you mean binary sequences
17:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_%CF%80_is_irrational
17:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> no, i thought for normality every sequence had to repeat infinitely? or maybe something else
17:05:20 <Fiora> "a number of infinite length is called normal when all possible sequences of digits (of any given length) appear equally often."
17:05:30 <Fiora> it's irrational, transcendental, but not known to be normal, I think
17:05:36 <katla> if it contains every sequences it contains them all infinitely many times
17:06:08 <katla> normal to a specific base is weaker than normal to all bases though
17:08:32 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130812-chromium.png <- that's kind of... not good?
17:08:53 <Jafet> Basically, the digits of a normal number appear equally distributed, without any statistical patterns. For example, 2718 2818 28 45 90 45...
17:09:17 <katla> implying e is normal
17:10:30 <Fiora> wikipedia says e is like pi, they think it's normal but it's not proven?
17:10:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I checked mine; it says the same stuff, and also claims I have a third-party ATI/AMD driver even though I don't
17:11:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: I had this working in the Ubunttu.
17:11:13 <katla> almost every number is normal but mathematicians can't prove it for a single one...
17:11:32 <Fiora> well, almost every number is uncomputable too XD
17:11:44 <fizzie> Well, "working", it's crashed a couple of times, but just taking the tab in question down.
17:12:10 <Jafet> > "0." ++ ([1..] >>= show)
17:12:12 <lambdabot> "0.123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930313233343536373839404...
17:13:32 -!- dessos has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:15:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: (For the record; did about:flags "Override software rendering" -> Enable and now it's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130812-chromier.png -- will see if it crashes and burns.)
17:18:12 <Deewiant> That's what that does for me, too. Do you have an AMD card or does it just always work like that?
17:19:03 <fizzie> No, this is a Nvidia card with the proprietary driver.
17:19:25 <Deewiant> Okay, so it's presumably always like that.
17:19:33 <fizzie> I went to a WebGL page, it hung up, I closed the tab, now it's listing all-software again. So.
17:20:04 <fizzie> For the record, I had working threedee on the nvidia driver on the old 7600GT card.
17:21:49 <fizzie> Dangnation; and I was all set to fiddle around with WebGL on this.
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17:23:52 * boily had his vietnamese soup fix
17:23:59 <katla> how the heck do you prove things like irrationality and trancendence
17:24:03 <katla> let alone normality
17:24:18 <katla> what do you need to know about a number to be able to prove that?
17:24:27 <Deewiant> katla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root_of_two#Proofs_of_irrationality
17:24:27 <boily> you just print out all the decimals of a number. if there is no pattern, then it's irrational.
17:24:50 <boily> darn. foiled by true facts.
17:25:17 <katla> Deewiant, that's different - it's straightfoward to explain why algebraic numbers like that are irrational
17:26:12 <Deewiant> Fair enough, I hadn't followed the discussion so I didn't know you were talking about nonalgebraic numbers
17:26:15 <Bike> yeah, i don't really understand how pi was proven irrational.
17:26:23 <Bike> something about continued fractions?
17:26:42 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_%CF%80_is_irrational
17:26:46 <katla> Bike, yeah but once you read and understand the proof youre no closer to answering my question
17:27:05 <katla> (that CF irrationality proof is awesome though do recommend it)
17:27:22 <Bike> I guess it boils down to "you need to know no two numbers in ratio form that number", which is awesomely unhelpful
17:27:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: That seems to work.
17:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> katla, i'm tempted to indulge you but i know it'll go nowhere so i won't
17:29:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
17:29:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
17:29:43 <katla> i dont know what to make of that
17:30:39 <Jafet> `pastelog pastlogs
17:31:18 <katla> it seems rude/dismissive though
17:31:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31511
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17:44:14 <Roujo> ?messages-sultry-whisper
17:44:21 * boily thwacks lambdabot with a rubber squid
17:46:35 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
17:46:42 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:46:47 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:46:52 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:47:13 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
17:47:13 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
17:47:22 <lambdabot> Error: expected a Haskell expression or declaration
17:47:42 <Roujo> But... but... our home!
17:47:48 <Roujo> boily, we must do something!
17:51:24 <zzo38> Do you know answer of any of my questions?
17:53:36 <zzo38> Roujo: Do what? What about your home?
17:54:04 <Roujo> Well, lamdabot has a module loaded that could apparently destroy/undo my home
17:54:11 <Roujo> Which I'm a bit scared of, frankly
17:54:23 <Roujo> But eh, if I'm still standing, then I guess it's not big deal
17:54:30 <Roujo> Also, what questions?
17:55:56 <zzo38> Questions about Uselessness RPG 1
17:56:12 <zzo38> (And about how such module would possibly to destroy/undo your home)
17:57:08 <zzo38> How would that do it?
17:57:31 <boily> aren't you in Lasalle?
17:57:41 <Roujo> Lachine, really =P
17:58:03 <boily> I'm in Rosemont-Petite-Patrie.
17:58:17 <zzo38> O, OK, then. Now answer the other question?
17:58:48 <Roujo> Where can I read the questions?
17:59:55 <zzo38> I wanted to put it from the paper also on wiki to make collaboration. That is the question.
18:01:00 <zzo38> (Somebody asked to put in git but at first I should have wiki to write the idea/planning, before a computer program is written.)
18:01:26 <Roujo> There is no question mark on your question
18:01:44 <Roujo> Also, you seem to have accidentally something in there as well
18:02:19 <Roujo> So I don't really know what the question is yet =/
18:02:45 <Roujo> Should you put it on the wiki? Should you make it a collaboration? Are you looking for feedback on the design/planning phase?
18:03:09 <Roujo> Great, now I'm not sure of anything anymore?
18:03:16 <Roujo> Look at what you've done? =P
18:03:34 <zzo38> Yes I want to know, what kind of wiki to put it in, that you have one. And yes I am looking for feedback on design/planning phase too once it is in wiki, we can make discussion on wiki too.
18:04:06 <boily> s/s\/\\.\/?\/g/s\/e\/ë\/g/g
18:04:12 <Roujo> I'm really sorry though, but I have no idea what your project is, nor if a wiki would be a good place to plan it?
18:04:21 * Roujo looks at that regex and twitches
18:04:39 <kmc> i like Gitit for a wiki
18:05:18 <Roujo> So... instëad of changing ëvëry . to a ?, it changës ëvëry ë to an ë?
18:05:23 <Roujo> Ah, looks like it doës
18:05:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: On the other hand, the Web Audio stuffs works in Chrome (Chromium) but not in Firefox (Iceweasel). So if I want to run some sort of real multimedia application, I guess I just start both and try to keep them in sync.
18:06:17 <fizzie> Perhaps I could invest in a second mouse, multi-pointer X and some kind of robot arm to duplicate my movements, in case the application takes input.
18:06:30 <zzo38> I think it is, but I want to know what wiki/section it can be, such as the existing Hackiki, esolang wiki, IF Wiki, some other wiki, or whatever, possibly in a user space, or which server is best for this kind of subjects, specifically, is one thing.
18:06:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: Surely you can multiplex things easier than that, e.g. with Xvfb.
18:07:02 -!- yorick has joined.
18:07:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's called cheating.
18:08:04 <Deewiant> Whatever cheating is, I think multiplexing your input between two browsers so that you can keep the audio stream from one in sync with the video stream from the other is the opposite of it.
18:08:51 -!- Koen_ has joined.
18:09:04 <kmc> there is currently a bug in Firefox OS preventing you from sending a text message that starts with "Yo,"
18:09:36 <Bike> just happens to be the bytes of a free(NULL) call
18:09:37 <Deewiant> Specifically that or a number of strings including that
18:10:12 <kmc> I don't know the details
18:10:39 <Fiora> I wonder if that's similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts
18:13:00 <zzo38> I want to use some wiki (and section in such wiki, if applicable) with permission, and I want to ask permission of whatever wiki it is (such as Gregor's Hackiki, or something else)
18:13:09 <boily> why the fungot would you interpret a string as bytecode voluntarily...
18:13:09 <fungot> boily: handle your flasks carefully there might be a doppelganger sent to inflict pain or cause injury. suddenly, wilson thought about war, and it could fit inside thor's shirt. its power of darkness. ( ulysses, by jakob and wilhelm grimm)
18:13:35 <kmc> i love character encodings
18:15:31 <Roujo> I have an encoding bug in my Android app atm
18:15:43 <Roujo> Apparently, the backend wasn't ready to receive and parse unicode
18:15:56 <Roujo> So whenever there's an accent in the SMS message sent to the server...
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18:16:31 <Roujo> ...it stores some String representation of the hex string corresponding to the unicode byte values
18:16:39 <Roujo> Which, of course, it can't parse =P
18:16:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:16:58 <Bike> my favorite byte values
18:17:02 <Roujo> It stores 0073 instead of s
18:17:06 <fizzie> Seems that Web Audio API is on by default in Firefox 25 (current Aurora release), so given their release cycle... it'll be on-by-default in current release version about tomorrow.
18:17:14 <olsner> Bike: the byte values of encoding problems
18:17:35 <boily> I do not value bytes. they aren't much.
18:17:43 <kmc> om nom nom
18:17:45 <Roujo> So intead of storing s;whatever, it stored 0073003Bwhatever
18:17:51 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
18:18:00 <Roujo> And the backend dev is on vacation
18:18:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: If it exists but isn't enabled, you can just enable it in about:config. And /that's/ cheating.
18:18:49 -!- nys has joined.
18:22:34 <fizzie> I guess it exists already in the current release.
18:23:11 <Deewiant> At least my 24 has a media.webaudio.enabled = false.
18:24:02 * boily jealously ogles Deewiant
18:26:24 <zzo38> Why would that be cheating?
18:26:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
18:36:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, good news, can't stoop that low: this Debian jessie installation has Iceweasel 10.0.12 installed, which of course doesn't do any of that.
18:37:59 <pikhq> Iceweasel 10? Strange. Stable's on 17, no?
18:37:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Does that directly correspond to a firefox version number? If so, enjoy.
18:39:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think it does. But hey, that's just 13 versions back.
18:39:41 <pikhq> (Debian official policy is now "we ship the latest ESR")
18:39:48 <Roujo> Men were killed for lesser things
18:40:31 <fizzie> pikhq: Curiously enough, that'd be version 17, which is in both stable and unstable but not in testing. (Perhaps some transient thing.)
18:40:48 <fizzie> Oh, you mentioned that about 17.
18:41:08 <boily> pikhq: ESR, as in that eric guy?
18:42:18 <olsner> probably "extended support release" or somesuch
18:43:00 <boily> ~duck i-esse-erre j'ai dit!
18:43:42 <fizzie> http://packages.qa.debian.org/i/iceweasel.html oh, so stable and testing are both 10, but stable-sec (and unstable) is at 17.
18:43:50 <fizzie> Not that 17 would really help much.
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18:44:37 <olsner> how old is firefox 10? I think I last used firefox 2 or 3
18:46:01 <fizzie> 10.0 is from January 2012.
18:46:11 <fizzie> (Huh, hasn't it been longer than that?)
18:46:43 <fizzie> 3.5 is mid-2009, 3.0 mid-2008 and 2.0 from October 2006.
18:47:00 <boily> I miss the days of 0.4.
18:47:10 <olsner> oh, 2.x is most likely then
18:47:16 <Deewiant> 3.6 was the last non-alpha 3.x, and that was January 2010
18:47:43 <Deewiant> I started with 0.4; I somewhat miss those days too
18:48:37 <Deewiant> A more civilized age and all that
18:49:17 <fizzie> I have absolutely no idea when I switched over. I guess there was something Mozilla in-between Netscape 4 and Firefox?
18:49:44 <olsner> oh yes, there were lots of mozilla as I recall
18:50:17 <fizzie> Netscape 6 was based on the Mozilla code.
18:50:30 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Timeline_of_web_browsers.svg has a fancy chart.
18:50:34 <Deewiant> 6 and 7 were based on Mozilla, 8 and 9 were based on Firefox
18:50:44 <olsner> weird... 5 is a much better new-codebase number than 6
18:51:12 <boily> we should start a Prime Numbers for Web Browsers Campaign.
18:51:18 <fizzie> olsner: They were making a 5, but nothing came out of it.
18:51:27 <fizzie> olsner: Plus they obviously needed to one-up IE 5.
18:52:50 <fizzie> (The so-called "Slackware Maneuver".)
18:53:17 <olsner> maneouvre is hard to spell
18:53:47 <olsner> what was the slackware manöver though? one-upping IE or skipping number 5?
18:54:25 <boily> s/manöver/manœuvre/
18:54:40 <fizzie> olsner: One-upping competitors.
18:55:07 <Deewiant> The joke is that Slackware is better than its competitors so it inherently one-ups them all the time.
18:55:11 <fizzie> olsner: They went from 3.x directly to 7, because Red Hat and everyone else was at 6.
18:56:05 <fizzie> Or maybe they got a 4.0 out, but at least they jumped from there.
18:56:40 <fizzie> "First off, I think I forgot to count some time ago. If I'd started on 6.0 and made every release a major version (I think that's how Linux releases are made these days, right? ;), we would be on Slackware 47 by now. (it would actually be in the 20s somewhere if we'd gone 1, 2, 3...)
18:56:50 <fizzie> I think it's clear that some other distributions inflated their version numbers for marketing purposes, and I've had to field (way too many times) the question "why isn't yours 6.x" or worse "when will you upgrade to Linux 6.0" which really drives home the effectiveness of this simple trick. With the move to glibc and nearly everyone else using 6.x now, it made sense to go to at least 6.0, ...
18:56:56 <fizzie> ... just to make it clear to people who don't know anything about Linux that Slackware's libraries, compilers, and other stuff are not 3 major versions behind. I thought they'd all be using 7.0 by now, but no matter. We're at least "one better", right? :)" --Patrick Volkerding
18:57:53 <kmc> Sun went from Java 1.4 to Java 5 (aka 1.5)
18:58:09 <kmc> and Linux went from 2.6.39 to 3.0 arbitrarily
18:58:09 <olsner> and from 1.1 to Java 2 1.2
18:58:15 <fizzie> Is Java 7 still 1.7 somewhere?
18:58:27 <olsner> up to Java 2 1.4? then Java 5 ... I think
18:59:03 <fizzie> Windows went from three-four-ish to ninety-five, though. :p
18:59:20 <fizzie> (And then on to two thousand.)
18:59:40 <olsner> well, 95 is at least internally 4.0 and 2000 is 5.0
18:59:49 <kmc> and then there were NT versions
19:01:05 <olsner> hmm, according to wikipedia Java went from Java 2 1.4 to Java 2 5.0 before going to Java 6
19:01:28 <fizzie> olsner: The 5.0 was 1.5 on the inside in many places, though.
19:01:38 <fizzie> "Java 2 5.0 aka 1.5" is quite a.
19:03:12 <fizzie> (Also it's "manööveri" in Finnish.)
19:04:01 <Deewiant> (And the verb is "manöveroida".)
19:04:15 <fizzie> (I guess vowel harmony is more of a suggestion than a law.)
19:04:33 <olsner> (what would the vowel harmonious version be?)
19:04:43 <Deewiant> (Alternatively "manövroida", it seems.)
19:05:03 <fizzie> olsner: Manooveri, mänööveri.
19:05:11 <Deewiant> Vowel harmony isn't a necessity in loanwords.
19:05:56 <Deewiant> (Of course what is and isn't a loanword gets blurry over time.)
19:06:41 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: a quote?
19:06:44 <Deewiant> Nothing by itself, ä and ö are different letters.
19:07:15 <fizzie> The front versions of a and o.
19:07:53 <Deewiant> a is front, the difference is openness.
19:08:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: Wikipedia claims a /ɑ/ is the back unrounded vowel.
19:08:58 <fizzie> (And that both /ɑ/ and /æ/ are open.)
19:09:31 <Deewiant> Not that it's a big difference.
19:09:43 <fizzie> Well, it does continue with: "Phonetically, the phoneme /ɑ/ is usually central, although it is back in some dialects."
19:09:48 <fizzie> So I suppose it's: a mess.
19:10:12 <boily> /ä/ is central, /ɑ/ is back.
19:10:20 <boily> (at least in french.)
19:12:24 <boily> is there any other language in the world that prominently features unvoiced vowels, as in Québec French?
19:12:42 <Roujo> Comme le e muet, mettons?
19:13:00 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:13:08 <Roujo> Japanese comes to mind
19:13:14 <Roujo> If I'm getting this right, anyway
19:13:22 <fizzie> boily: "-- several Native American languages --", apparently.
19:13:49 <boily> Roujo: oh hm. I should have known. ちょっと日本語を話せますけど…
19:13:54 <fizzie> "Cheyenne has 14 orthographic letters composed of 13 phonemes, several of which can be devoiced. ([x] is written as x orthographically but is not a phoneme.) Devoicing naturally occurs in the last vowel of a word or phrase. It can also occur in vowels at the penultimate and prepenultimate positions within a word."
19:13:56 -!- atehwa has joined.
19:13:56 <boily> fizzie: ah! interesting!
19:15:45 <Deewiant> "although contrastively voiceless vowels have been reported several times, they have never been verified (L&M 1996:315)."
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19:22:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: I know the topic sort of passed already, but since I had the tab open... this is what chrome://gpu says after I go to any webgl thing: http://sprunge.us/NUVD
19:23:00 <fizzie> Maybe they'll fix in in the future.
19:23:21 <fizzie> What, I don't have glxgears.
19:23:44 <Deewiant> Install mesa-demos or the equivalent.
19:25:08 <fizzie> "mesa-utils", apparently.
19:26:06 <fizzie> "Running synchronized to the vertical refresh. The framerate should be approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate."
19:26:09 <fizzie> What. The whole point were those over-nine-thousand-FPS numbers.
19:26:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: vblank_mode=0 glxgears
19:27:15 <fizzie> I found that in the interwebs, but it did nothing. :'(
19:27:32 <boily> that always left me puzzled: how can you achieve higher than 60 fps on a screen, where the hardware's refresh rate is fixed to 60 Hz (or 120 Hz if you have a nice high-end monitor).
19:27:56 <boily> WORKSFORME=0 glxgears
19:27:58 <Deewiant> You just send the frames and the display displays as many as it can.
19:28:14 <fizzie> The frames also change in the middle of the display update.
19:28:16 <boily> so it's a not-quite-fake-but-neither-very-true measure.
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19:28:45 <fizzie> I'll blame the nvidia driver for vblank_mode not doing anything.
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19:29:08 <olsner> maybe you can disable vsync globally
19:29:22 <fizzie> nvidia-settings has a vsync setting, that'd probably do it.
19:40:07 <HackEgo> olist (910): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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19:43:02 <boily> transcendality put to good use: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
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20:01:56 <boily> permit me to loudly and squaredly facepalm as a sign of sincere apology.
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20:14:41 <oerjan> no it's awful (disclaimer: i haven't read the logs yet, so i have no idea what you are referring to)
20:15:36 <zzo38> Sorry, I didn't really mention it yet.
20:15:41 <zzo38> I mean this: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
20:16:31 <Bike> i just broke out laughing
20:16:49 <oerjan> Bike: you probably have Kuru hth
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20:27:22 <metasepia> kuru definition: a rare progressive fatal prion disease that resembles Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and has occurred among tribespeople in eastern New Guinea who engaged in a form of ritual cannibalism.
20:27:43 <boily> Bike: try to not die. it is poor manners.
20:28:16 <Bike> sure NOW you tell me not to eat brains
20:29:59 <pikhq> Next they'll be telling me not to get profound tendon damage.
20:30:43 <boily> tongues in a Korean-style marinade are still safe, right?
20:30:51 <pikhq> Systemic tendinitis, what a sideeffect.
20:31:13 <boily> fleshy, chewy tongues, lightly grilled...
20:35:20 <oerjan> sorry, but tongues are disgusting hth
20:36:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you sure? Maybe to you and some people it is; maybe to some people it isn't?
20:37:54 <boily> tongues are tasty and flavourful.
20:39:44 <oerjan> zzo38: let's just say that cod tongue is the one food from my childhood which i cannot abide trying again.
20:40:58 <boily> cod... tongue??? bletch.
20:41:24 <oerjan> a distinction which does _not_ apply to either lutefisk or blood sausage, which others may find disgusting.
20:41:26 <boily> I'm okay with just about any possible internal organ, but cod tongue?
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20:42:38 <boily> Roujo: as a fellow montrealer, what are your thoughts on internal organ edibility?
20:43:06 <oerjan> i guess the fact i won't eat bovine tongue is just tranferred cod trauma.
20:43:25 <elliott> Transferred Cod Trauma is the name of my band
20:43:42 <boily> `addquote <oerjan> i guess the fact i won't eat bovine tongue is just tranferred cod trauma.
20:43:46 <HackEgo> 1088) <oerjan> i guess the fact i won't eat bovine tongue is just tranferred cod trauma.
20:44:32 <zzo38> elliott: You made up a band?
20:44:47 <boily> oerjan: I know, I just copied it verbatim.
20:45:05 <boily> should I resubmit it with proper essification?
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20:46:35 <oerjan> unless that's a freudian slip on no:tran = en:fish liver oil (as tapped in bottles and considered a health supplement; _freshly_ boiled cod liver is part of a delicious national meal (skreimølje).)
20:47:07 <oerjan> boily: no, i guess the truth of history shall not be hidden
20:47:41 <boily> I think I prefer the dubious scandinavian obscure liver pun version.
20:48:10 <oerjan> so i suppose tran _might_ count as another such food, although i don't think that was pushed on me as much as on some other poor kids.
20:49:08 <boily> I think my dad tried to make us ingurgitate fish oil pills when my bro and I were young, but the memories of that are very fungotty.
20:49:08 <fungot> boily: they say that you can lie on it till it hatched, and thieves. he is important as a lord, even on the astral plane. usually, there will be very useful if you're telepathic.
20:49:19 <boily> something about vitamin E and whatnots.
20:50:17 <oerjan> there's a norwegian wikipedia article on mølje but no english wiki link in it, alas
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20:51:03 <oerjan> also i recall the meat variant, which is far less delicious but still edible after a fashion and which my mother used to make on christmas eve.
20:52:05 <oerjan> boily: btw i recommend google picture hits for skreimølje hth
20:53:29 <oerjan> boily: the norwegian traditional way of taking fish oil is with a spoon, from a bottle. i hear nowadays they add orange flavor to it to make it less unappealing.
20:53:54 <oerjan> also they are making advertisements about it.
20:54:12 <zzo38> I made the wiki of discussion/collaboration of Uselessness RPG 1, now. Please write a comment on it! (or if you find a minor spelling/grammar mistake on it, you can fix that too if you want to)
20:55:17 <oerjan> boily: fungotty memories sounds like _all_ my childhood memories.
20:55:17 <fungot> oerjan: better leave the dungeon; otherwise you might get giantslayer.
20:55:43 <boily> oerjan: as the Illustrious Markovian Bot said.
20:56:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:58:27 <nooodl> zzo38: you should give a link to the wiki; we can't comment or take a look at it if we don't know where it is
20:58:38 <zzo38> nooodl: I already did.
20:58:52 <zzo38> But, I will repeat it to you: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
21:05:18 <boily> ah, the joy of being completely lost in the inextricable meandres of OpenERP innadrs...
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21:15:34 <boily> time to go get various thready resino-cupric apparatuses for power distribution and signal propagation. tonight is da night!
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21:37:19 <kmc> who wants to talk about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature ??? it's pretty great
21:37:49 <kmc> a public-key signature system which uses no fancy math, only hash functions, and so resists attack by quantum computers
21:37:56 <kmc> only problem is you can only use a given public key once >_<
21:41:47 <elliott> huh, lesie lamport did non-latex things.
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21:46:39 <kmc> merkle trees were invented as a way of efficiently "distributing" lots of one-time-use Lamport public keys
21:48:05 <kmc> like you generate 2^n keys, make them into a merkle tree of height n, and then publish the root as your identity
21:48:56 <kmc> then to sign a message you also include one of those one-use keys and the path to it in the merkle tree
21:49:38 <kmc> I guess once you've almost used up your 2^n keys you can sign a new root? not sure
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21:54:26 <elliott> kmc: do you know about `grep ''`, feel like this is a useful non-obvious tip that people should know (or maybe everyone but me already does)
21:54:40 <elliott> it's like cat but it labels the files all the lines are from so you can use it in a pipeline or just pass it to less or whaterver
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21:55:23 <kmc> elliott: oh that's cool
21:55:29 <kmc> I do use 'grep .' sometimes but didn't know that one
21:55:49 <elliott> does that work with empty lines?
21:57:11 <kmc> no it filters out empty lines
21:57:14 <kmc> which is useful sometimes
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22:02:37 <fizzie> Sometimes I do 'head -n -0 list of files', it's kind of similar except it puts ==> labels <== at the start of each file instead of labeling lines.
22:04:18 <elliott> fizzie: `more ...` does the same
22:04:33 <elliott> though the headers are slightly different
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22:58:46 <Taneb> Can someone quickly give me a simple iterative code excerpt from a C-like language?
23:00:16 <Fiora> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++){printf("%d\n", i);}
23:00:23 <Bike> int fib(int n) { int res = 1, i; for(i = 2; i < n; ++i) res *= i; return res; }
23:00:31 <Bike> wow good naming
23:01:24 <Bike> fib for factorial
23:02:21 <Fiora> I guess the name of your function
23:03:03 <Taneb> Thanks, Fiora, used yours
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23:35:03 <oerjan> Taneb: you hadn't learned haskell when you came here to #esoteric, had you? now i see you advocating it all over reddit :P
23:35:20 <Taneb> What have I become!?
23:36:31 <oerjan> also i vaguely recall what the haskell committee had was called a "syntax czar"
23:37:04 <shachaf> why would you advocate haskell
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23:38:13 <shachaf> Sgeo: we've already `olisted, no need
23:38:37 <oerjan> confirmed by googling it and getting hudak's A History of Haskell as one of the hits
23:39:36 <oerjan> oh no, Sgeo's counter has wrapped around!
23:39:58 <oerjan> also HackEgo has croaked?
23:40:12 <Bike> imo, we're all going to die
23:40:26 <oerjan> Bike: that is one common (but disputed) hypothesis
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23:41:21 <oerjan> of course it depends on your definition of "die"
23:41:50 <Sgeo> Zero-width space. Also, Quassel doesn't have a right-click menu to add one, so I had to use character map :(
23:41:56 <oerjan> i think a sufficiently advanced singularitarian immortality is indistinguishable from religious afterlife, or something.
23:42:07 <shachaf> Sgeo: you added two, in fact
23:42:09 <Bike> wow, how convenient.
23:43:05 <Taneb> oerjan, are you reddit-stalking me
23:43:24 <oerjan> in fact some religions may have _less_ advanced afterlives than that...
23:43:36 * oerjan hides his reddit friend list
23:44:17 <oerjan> shachaf: hm are you, let me check
23:45:46 <oerjan> shachaf: no, like elliott you are excluded for never actually posting hth
23:46:02 <Taneb> oerjan, by the way, in another channel I'm fighting Haskell's last stand
23:46:11 <shachaf> oerjan: hey i post at least once a year hth
23:46:27 <Bike> btw how do you quantify how advanced an afterlife is
23:46:29 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you should come to #haskell
23:46:51 <oerjan> shachaf: it's ok since it's always(*) to r/haskell which i read anyway
23:46:51 <Bike> can you advance an afterlife
23:46:52 <shachaf> and/or #haskell-lens (the good channel and also smaller)
23:47:17 <shachaf> #haskell-lens isn't even logged
23:47:29 <oerjan> Bike: well some afterlives like the buddhist ones might be _temporary_. and some might not be very attractive.
23:47:46 <Bike> that doesn't sound very advancedness-related!
23:47:56 <oerjan> (actually i'm not sure buddhism has afterlives as much as different realms to be reborn into)
23:48:43 <Bike> buddhism just has lives, generally
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23:49:42 <zzo38> "singularitarian immortality"? Like, it is...
23:50:26 <kmc> overthrow the syntax czar and install a syntax soviet
23:51:00 <oerjan> zzo38: basically about technology solving the problem of mortality, in whatever manner. (computer uploading with backups being a popular idea for how it could happen)
23:51:02 <Bike> a syntax soviet elected by the syntax proletariat
23:51:37 <zzo38> Mortality is a problem?
23:51:52 <kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
23:52:00 <oerjan> zzo38: some people don't like the idea of having to die, indeed
23:52:13 <oerjan> at least not until they themselves choose it.
23:52:17 <zzo38> I think it is not a problem.
23:52:30 <zzo38> The problem is those kind of people.
23:52:52 <oerjan> obvious solution: kill all the people who don't want to die
23:53:06 <Taneb> It's a four-way showdown between C, C++, Go, and Haskell
23:53:17 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
23:53:19 <Bike> i'm already incredibly disinterested
23:53:20 <HackEgo> 1089) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
23:53:21 <oerjan> (i didn't say it was a good solution, just obvious)
23:53:28 <zzo38> I suppose that's one, but I don't like that solution either. Just simply ignore their request.
23:54:01 <Bike> btw i found out my school library has a binder of PDP-11 macro programming manual
23:55:23 <shachaf> why would you macro program a micro computer
23:55:29 <shachaf> hmm, the PDP-11 was a mini computer
23:55:35 <oerjan> Taneb: i think what you need is to get kmc in there to make it a five-way showdown
23:55:38 <Bike> it's programming In The Large
23:58:54 <HackEgo> NyS: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
23:59:10 <nys> i've been here before
23:59:14 <nys> i'm not new
23:59:23 <HackEgo> nys: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:59:29 <oerjan> but have you been _WeLcOmEd_ before
23:59:44 <nys> nothing much
23:59:58 <nys> ??6?$basic_ostream@DU?$char_traits@D@std@@@std@@QAEAAV01@P6AAAV01@AAV01@@Z@Z
00:00:03 <nys> that's kinda up
00:00:06 <kmc> good symbol
00:00:21 <zzo38> nys: What is that?
00:00:26 <Taneb> The main argument against Haskell seems to be "nobody understands Haskell"
00:00:36 <Bike> that's pretty up, imo
00:00:41 <nys> zzo38: msvc++ mangled name
00:00:46 <kmc> but what is it up
00:00:55 <Bike> msvc's stupid ass?
00:01:03 <Taneb> Apart from the C guy who's saying "C is simple and uncluttered and fast. Everything else is awful"
00:01:05 <Bike> stupid stupid dumb, my premier insult
00:01:11 <Bike> this sounds terrible
00:01:18 <mnoqy> why are you in this discussion
00:01:29 <Taneb> mnoqy, because if I leave it'll end up with C++
00:01:49 <Bike> it's going to end up in python and PHP
00:02:10 <Bike> so anyway, should i read this book about tajikistan or this one about optics.
00:02:14 <Taneb> Then I'd have to learn C++!
00:06:42 -!- dessos_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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00:10:02 <Sgeo> "It looks like quite an intense experience, but apparently it will be extremely smooth and comfortable despite of the incredible speeds:"
00:10:16 -!- dessos has joined.
00:10:17 <Sgeo> It seemed obvious to me that it's acceleration that counts and not speed
00:10:59 <Bike> don't go with your crazy theories here, newton
00:14:00 <Phantom_Hoover> if anything the faster you travel the smoother the ride
00:14:19 <Bike> what about relativistic effects!
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00:14:46 <Bike> goodnight TRAITOR
00:16:31 <Bike> one of what. the traitors? yes, we must ccarry out a purge.
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00:30:42 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: not sure I get it (beyond being a shorter ride)
00:30:57 <Sgeo> Shorter ride inside than outsid
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00:42:46 <nooodl> http://www.aclweb.org/anthology-new/C/C08/C08-2028.pdf good
00:43:35 <nooodl> oh my god the picture of the actual robots on page 3. amazing
00:47:22 <nooodl> "Since the robots are supposed to say stupid things anyway, if they do so by mistake instead of on purpose it can still be funny."
00:48:50 <elliott> "Next, one robot uses a proverb or saying in
00:48:50 <elliott> Japanese, along the lines of “Recently my life has
00:48:50 <elliott> felt like ’jack of all trades, master of none’, you
00:48:50 <elliott> know.” The other robot then makes a vulgar joke
00:48:50 <elliott> by modifying this, perhaps like “For me it has been
00:48:52 <elliott> more like ’jacking off all trades, masturbate none’,
00:50:52 <elliott> I really hope these routines are funnier in the original Japanese
01:02:32 <elliott> "The main merits of the Robovie-i are that
01:02:33 <elliott> it is easily programmable, cheap, and cute."
01:03:44 <Fiora> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/12/20_injured_at_lg_smartphone_giveaway_as_pr_stunt_turns_sour/ wow, this was a terrible idea
01:04:02 <Fiora> "let's release balloons with coupons for free phones. nobody is going to show up with bb guns and shoot at them"
01:04:27 <kmc> bahahahaha
01:04:51 <Bike> "knives on sticks"
01:05:26 <Bike> hey americans do any of you have experience with i-9
01:05:54 <kmc> the form that proves you can work in the US?
01:06:06 <kmc> sure i've filled out a few I-9s in my day, what's up
01:06:25 <Bike> well just, do i seriously need to get my dad to mail me my birth certificate.
01:06:44 <Bike> fuck, that lady really has a polearm
01:07:03 <shachaf> why do you need a birth certificate
01:07:12 <Bike> to prove that i'm a true blooded american
01:07:39 <shachaf> i just used a passport i think
01:07:53 <Bike> darned foreigners
01:08:20 <Bike> darned foreigner-sympathisizers
01:09:09 <shachaf> anyway there are a bunch of different things that you can use
01:09:27 <kmc> i used a US passport too
01:09:27 <Bike> yes i have a table and they all involve mailing sensitive documents, so i wanna moan
01:10:22 <Bike> i have to get it mailed to me.
01:11:11 <shachaf> you don't have any of the things in LIST A?
01:11:33 <shachaf> presumably LIST B isn't so hard, or is it??
01:11:43 <Bike> You need list b and list c, if you don't have list a.
01:11:55 <Bike> and everything on list a is irrelevant to me other than a passport, which i don't have because: baby.
01:12:48 <shachaf> anyway do you have some kind of id?
01:13:16 <Bike> yeah, sure. but not list c.
01:13:35 <shachaf> i guess likely would be a social security card or birth certificate
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01:15:21 <Bike> Also, to get a passport I would need a SS card or whatever. Also doesn't it take like a couple months to get, and money.
01:15:40 <shachaf> oh, you don't have one of those either?
01:15:58 <shachaf> don't you need them for things
01:16:00 <Bike> i have an ss card. but not with me.
01:18:59 <shachaf> some internet page says "The employer (or representative) must personally review original documents only. Photocopies (including fax copies) or numbers representing original documents are not acceptable. The only exception to the photocopy rule is a certified copy of a birth certificate."
01:19:40 <shachaf> but i guess that's just as much trouble
01:19:48 <Bike> you can stop, shachaf. i just wanted to moan at the void.
01:20:22 <shachaf> otherwise how will you go to finland
01:20:39 <Bike> underground railroad
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02:42:33 <kmc> clowns will eat you
02:42:55 <FreeFull> It's a little known fact that I am poisonous to clowns
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02:46:50 <FreeFull> A clown tried to eat me once and he died right on the spot
02:46:55 <FreeFull> They've been staying away since
02:46:57 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:47:20 <kmc> "Step into the future! Click here to switch to the beta php.net site"
02:48:04 <coppro> ekmett scares me sometimes
02:48:20 <Bike> ekmett is our lord and savior
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04:00:29 <Sgeo> Having trouble with the non-identity compression algorithms that compress some files make some files larger thing
04:00:44 <Bike> damn pigeonhole principle. DEAL WITH IT PIGEONS.
04:00:58 <zzo38> What trouble do you have?
04:01:29 <Sgeo> 4 bit files = 16 files, but there are 15 files that are smaller than that, so just one file could be left alone as a 4 bit file while the other 4 bit files get compressed. So no files end up larger.
04:01:52 <Bike> q: why are you compressing four-bit files
04:02:05 <Sgeo> As an example as I try to explain this stuff on Reddit
04:02:29 <Bike> Sgeo: consider the behavior on 1-bit, 2-bit, 3-bit files
04:02:42 <Fiora> I think the problem here is you're considering "the original size of the file" as part of the compressed information
04:02:45 <Fiora> which you don't actually know?
04:02:58 <Fiora> like, you're assuming the original file is 4 bits
04:03:19 <Bike> the problem is that if you're only compressing 4 bit files you can indeed get lossless shrinkage-or-equality
04:03:46 <Deewiant> Solution to disk space: specialize gzip for every possible file size
04:03:50 <Bike> one easy method would be stripping leading zeroes
04:04:22 <Bike> of course, the decompressor has to know that it should only get four-bit files.
04:05:08 <Fiora> Bike: this reminds me of like, the problem of universal codes
04:05:13 <Fiora> like, with golomb codes
04:05:26 <Fiora> if you need a universal code you need to signal not only the bits in the code, but how long the code is
04:06:01 <Fiora> so like golomb codes do it with something like "111 0 110"
04:06:12 <Fiora> the actual code is "0110" but the 1s are there to signal how long the code is?
04:06:18 <Fiora> so it's really 7 bits
04:06:29 <Bike> the length has to include itself, eh
04:07:42 <shachaf> how can you tell where the length stops
04:08:47 <Bike> i thought it was 111 as in seven.
04:08:50 <Fiora> so counting from 0 the codes are like
04:08:54 <shachaf> i thought that because Bike said that
04:09:10 <Bike> i am the deceiver
04:09:12 <Fiora> 0, 100, 101, 11000, 11001, 11010, 11011 ...
04:09:17 <Fiora> (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ...
04:09:39 <shachaf> is there a better way of encoding the length if it's big
04:09:46 <shachaf> for example encode the length of the length using that metho
04:10:05 <Fiora> you could design a different coding scheme optimized towards a different distribution of input values?
04:10:10 <Bike> would increase decoding time, though.
04:10:38 <Fiora> like if your input values are random between 0 and 1023, you just use a 10 bit code
04:11:03 <Fiora> but if they're biased towards 0 you could use shorter codes for smaller things at the cost of longer codes for bigger things?
04:13:16 <Deewiant> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_omega_coding
04:13:55 <shachaf> Deewiant: Right, I was thinking along those lines.
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04:14:21 <shachaf> Probably not really worth it past a small constant number of logarithms, though.
04:15:13 <Deewiant> Delta coding is visibly better than gamma coding but past that the difference is minimal.
04:15:39 <Deewiant> 'The encoding for a googol to the hundredth power, 10^10000, is 33243 bits long; under Elias delta coding, the same number is 33250 bits long.'
04:18:38 <Bike> > (length "a googol") * (logBase 2 (length ['\0'..]))
04:18:39 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
04:19:09 <Deewiant> > genericLength "a googol" * logBase 2 (genericLength ['\0'..])
04:19:30 <shachaf> (fromIntegral.length) is much better unless you're using lazy naturals.
04:19:31 <Deewiant> Shorter than (fromIntegral.length)
04:19:52 <Deewiant> And indeed better in that rare case, too
04:20:01 <shachaf> > ((fromIntegral.length) "a googol") * (logBase 2 ((fromIntegral.length) ['\0'..]))
04:20:46 <Bike> elias delta is clearly insufficient
04:25:00 <zzo38> The GNU AWK documentation has a section named "Undocumented Options and Features" which is intentionally left blank.
04:26:21 <shachaf> This section unintentionally left blank.
04:27:04 <Bike> what are your thoughts on idealism
04:29:42 <zzo38> What kind of idealism?
04:30:06 <Sgeo> This section unintentionally useful.
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04:44:12 <zzo38> I added a file into the Uselessness RPG 1 wiki for creating a backup copy. Please tell me if it is OK?
04:45:31 <zzo38> This is the file: http://hackiki.org/wiki/raw/bin/uselessness_rpg_1,,create_backup
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04:55:13 <zzo38> It was broken; now it is fixed.
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06:18:51 <zzo38> Please collaboration/discussion of ideas/plans of Uselessness RPG 1 (anyone is welcome to write a comment on it).
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06:55:03 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of the lamport signature scheme
06:57:25 <zzo38> Lamport signature looks like it could help some things.
06:57:49 <kmc> which things?
06:58:24 <zzo38> A few things are described on Wikipedia.
06:59:14 <zzo38> For example if you only need to sign it once, or you could use Merkle tree
06:59:28 <kmc> Merkle trees are great
07:04:18 <zzo38> And it looks like there may be other advantages too, in some cases.
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09:01:01 <fizzie> [[ In the name "Windows CE," the letters "CE" are not an abbreviation for anything, but rather they imply a number of the precepts around which Windows CE is designed, including "Compact," Connectable," Compatible," "Companion," and "Efficient." ]]
09:01:11 <fizzie> (Found while Googling for what the "RT" is for.)
09:10:06 <fizzie> Apparently it's officially for nothing in particular, but unofficially perhaps it stands for Windows Runtime (WinRT), the thing that "Windows 8 style" apps are written against.
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10:01:44 <fizzie> Huh. I think MATLAB (or some subpart of it) just managed to create a file named "C:\nppdf32Log\debuglog.txt" in the current directory.
10:03:15 <fizzie> I guess it's one of those programs where you enable debug logging by creating a directory. (And also one that hardcodes backslashes.)
10:07:42 <Deewiant> At least the one in my home directory at work is timestamped at around the time I used an X-forwarded firefox there this morning.
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10:23:50 <fizzie> I think it was MATLAB's help browser this time.
10:24:01 <fizzie> Since it was in the directory where I started MATLAB (and nothing else) from.
10:24:44 <fizzie> It probably uses some form of web browser internally, though.
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10:33:06 <fizzie> Another MATLAB weirdness: it only shows the splash but doesn't start if I run "matlab &", but it starts normally if I run "matlab", wait for the desktop to appear, then ^z and bg it.
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12:59:00 <boily> good liquefied morning!
13:06:12 <fizzie> I just spent close to an hour trying to figure out why this model is doing nothing, only to realize that I had mixed up the meanings of 'y' and 'x' when loading data.
13:10:20 <boily> fizzie: still deep into ML?
13:13:33 <fizzie> Yes. One of our reviewers wanted a better baseline (to some "competiting" method), so I guess I'll have to implement something, even if it really isn't the point of the paper.
13:14:56 <boily> yuck. I hate the term baseline, and even moreso when it concerns ML.
13:15:42 <boily> the prof I worked for was obsessed with a baseline. I never knew which baseline he was talking about.
13:17:50 <fizzie> We have the "standard" setup, a demonstrated feature enhancement dealie that's been published and benchmarked in other work, and (the main contribution here) a new trick that improves things, but reviewer #3 wants this paper to show also performance gains compared to completely different approaches, or otherwise there's "insufficient motivation for such a detailed study", or some-such.
13:18:18 <fizzie> (Reviewers #1 and #2, on the other hand, would like some extended analysis of the trick in question.)
13:18:31 <fizzie> Peer review in action can be a pretty ugly thing.
13:22:08 <boily> from the stories I've heard, academia scares me.
13:26:58 <fizzie> I'm not so much "in" it -- e.g., I have this graduate school funding thing going on, so I don't have much if at all to do with the stereotypical incessant writing of grant applications -- so I wouldn't know.
13:28:46 <boily> I wonder if being a grad student is the same the world over...
13:29:25 <fizzie> There certainly have been a number of parallels to phdcomics.com.
13:34:30 <fizzie> It's been quite a while.
13:34:54 <fizzie> "Simple 2D rendering API that can use Direct3D, OpenGL, OpenGL ES, or software rendering behind the scenes" it's like so this millennium now.
13:36:13 <fizzie> wiki.libsdl.org: "The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems."
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14:36:20 <boily> aaaaaaurgh. I have a colleague who prefixes his privmsgs with «@nick ...».
14:38:43 <Roujo> Well, that's alright
14:38:46 <Taneb> What, "/msg boily @boily hi"
14:38:49 <Roujo> Private messages? =P
14:40:24 <boily> just generic IRC PRIVMSG, so something like:
15:03:44 <boily> is there a list for lambdabot's unknown commands?
15:04:31 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:05:17 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:05:22 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:05:33 <Taneb> It's got fuzzy matching
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15:23:05 <boily> AnothelloTest, hezzo38.
15:23:42 <zzo38> That seems a strange way.
15:25:15 <boily> and my kobo doesn't seem to charge...
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15:40:00 <zzo38> I still cannot connect to *.foxpaws.net
15:41:18 <boily> it works here. it redirects to vulpes.foxpaws.net at 96.10.18.3.
15:41:54 <zzo38> I mean I cannot connect to any server under .foxpaws.net on any port number.
15:42:15 <zzo38> Therefore I cannot send a message to them or whatever.
15:42:31 <zzo38> (and the proxy doesn't work either)
15:43:10 <boily> weird. foxpaws resolves to what IP on your end?
15:44:04 <zzo38> Same as it does to you
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15:44:29 <zzo38> However I cannot connect to other servers under foxpaws.net either.
15:45:25 <boily> do you have an example of a not vulpes host?
15:45:59 <zzo38> There is vixen and watchfox; neither of those work either.
15:46:25 <boily> oh. it doesn't work indeed.
15:46:50 <zzo38> No port number works as far as I can see.
15:49:38 <boily> I just nmapped the thing. the usual ports are open (ssh, smtp, ident, ...). do you want the XML log?
15:50:11 <boily> (now, how do I send a file through weechat...)
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15:54:33 <zzo38> That's good, but I was trying to connect to port 8889; I tried other ports afterward to see if those would work, but they don't; so I cannot write a message at all (or read a message, but I was trying to write one). And one of the messages I was trying to write involves defects of the system (I put it in all one file so that I can just send the URL), but it appears too defective to do that.
15:54:50 <zzo38> And none of the ports you mention work for me on any of those three servers.
15:59:12 <zzo38> Even when it was working, the session sometimes restarted for apparently no reason, usually while on the chat menu but sometimes even before that.
16:00:36 <boily> what kind of fungotian servers are they? their purpose are very mysterious, and their operation a little bit too flaky.
16:00:36 <fungot> boily: they say that having polymorph control won't shock you sooner or later. his symbol is the haste that ye hurry by? brother, i hear it: to have been man's first instructors in the wild beast short. that was noble and great and small, has a certain ring to it, without incurring any fine or other penalty." the bushmen say that nethack is more pleasant than cram,' they answered. ' imp' properly means a small time they will st
16:06:19 <zzo38> I was playing a MUD game on there once, but I stopped due to the large number of defects in the system (and because I couldn't find the society/gods I wanted to select; someone told me to type all about it, so I did), and later I tried to reconnect to send messages relating to these things, and to access the help files, but I can't because it doesn't work.
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16:17:28 <zzo38> (And one of the things I wanted to tell them is that it doesn't work)
16:18:34 <zzo38> Does it work for you?
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16:58:32 <boily> zzo38: sorry, went out to lunch.
16:59:39 <boily> zzo38: what do you want me to check again?
16:59:49 <Taneb> Aaaaah I now own a 3DS
17:00:41 <zzo38> boily: Well, I wanted to send a message to them; one to "Foxbird" and one to "Priest of Old God" or something like that.
17:02:44 <fizzie> Nice subtitling: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130813-ok-intro.png "4k intro" => "ok-intro". (Sorry for the Finnish.)
17:05:42 <kmc> how did that happen?
17:06:40 <fizzie> Maybe they used SPEECH RECOGNITION. (Pre-empting elliott here.)
17:07:06 <boily> zzo38: looks like I'm in the same situation as you. nothing apart vulpes.foxpaws.net works. «Erreur de chargement de la page ― La connexion a échoué»
17:07:27 <boily> fizzie: is that a pun between “4” and “o”, or just poor subtitlement?
17:07:30 <zzo38> How does that mean in English?
17:07:39 <fizzie> boily: The latter, I think.
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17:14:32 <kmc> the Rust runtime library is written in Rust now
17:14:39 <kmc> that's pretty cool, and more interesting than a self-hosting compiler imo
17:14:59 <zzo38> Probably it is better than a self-hosting compiler, too.
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17:15:15 <Roujo> "It's not self-hosting until the whole stack is using the language, from the compiler to the OS."
17:15:23 <kmc> how ya figgure
17:16:00 <Vorpal> Anyone have any suggestions for good backup programs for Linux? Looking for some way to automate incremental backup of the entire system. Previously I just mirrored with rsync, but now I'm looking for something that provides a bit of history as well.
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17:16:45 <Deewiant> rsync + checkpointing filesystem
17:17:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what checkpointing file systems do Linux support?
17:17:30 <Vorpal> But that is indeed an interesting idea
17:17:46 <Vorpal> Linux supports ZFS? Since when?
17:17:47 <Deewiant> I guess snapshotting is the actual term
17:17:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I use a set of scripts built around rdiff-backup; it's pretty much like rsync except it does backwards-diff history on top.
17:18:06 <Vorpal> Also isn't brtfs in development still?
17:18:26 <Deewiant> Duplicity is another thing similar to rdiff-backup, IIRC
17:18:27 <fizzie> (There's also something very much like rdiff-backup, I forget the name.)
17:18:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's probably what I was thinking of.
17:18:50 <Deewiant> And yes, btrfs is a work in progress, I don't actually know if it does snapshotting yet
17:18:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm nice, how easy would it be to extract a single file from a given version? Or browse what an old version looked like to try and find a file?
17:19:20 <fizzie> I haven't really been needing to do that, so can't say.
17:19:44 <fizzie> The latest version is easily browseable since it's just there, of course.
17:20:13 <fizzie> And you can ask the command-line tool for "newest before this date" kind of things, sure.
17:20:34 <fizzie> At least I recall so; haven't had the occasion to.
17:21:53 <Deewiant> "Like duplicity, [rdiff-backup] uses the rsync algorithm for bandwidth and space efficiency, but instead of storing data in encrypted archives, it creates a mirror on the remote system."
17:22:27 <CADD> all i have to say is: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
17:23:35 <boily> looks like I'm not the only one to repost the pifs thing :D
17:23:47 <Deewiant> Also I think the Tarsnap tools are free
17:24:11 <CADD> CADD: lemme guess /r/math?
17:24:44 <Vorpal> "They said 100% compression was impossible? You're looking at it!" <-- false, the position of the file in pi might take a larger number to express than the file content itself.
17:24:59 <boily> CADD: I don't know what you're talking about. any evidence of me spending way too much time on reddit is false.
17:25:01 <CADD> Vorpal: you are completely right.
17:25:10 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Just store the position in pifs as well
17:25:10 <Roujo> I think I posted that in here yesterday
17:25:14 * boily points to metasepia "the bot did it!"
17:25:28 <CADD> boily: hehe.. i like reddit for the archives. if you unsub from the overcrowded subs then reddit is pretty palitable
17:25:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I apply the pidgin hole principle.
17:25:36 <Deewiant> Vorpal: (And if that takes too much space store the position of that in pifs etc, recursively)
17:26:08 <Roujo> Deewiant: But then you also have to store the number of recursions you've done =P
17:26:10 <boily> CADD: indeed. I still do like todayilearned, mind you. I just have this insatiable urge to consume random trivia.
17:26:24 <Roujo> (Ideally, store that into pifs as well)
17:26:28 <Deewiant> Roujo: Just shove it all in pifs, it's free after all
17:26:48 <CADD> boily: yeah, reddit is a goldmine in its archives. thats mostly where i hang around in.. lol
17:26:51 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you would need to store for each iteration then if it was the file or if it was another address.
17:27:26 <boily> but pifs has some serious security problems with people all using the same constant. the government has direct access to everything you wrote, you're writing or might write!
17:27:39 <CADD> either way the 100% compression is facetious
17:27:44 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Just to be different you can store that info in √2fs
17:27:57 <Roujo> boily: Yes, but separating that from the random crap is pretty much a lost cause
17:27:57 <CADD> boily: oh yeah
17:28:27 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I believe efs would work too
17:28:31 <Roujo> Suggestion: Finding the binary representation of some CP picture in pi, then suing everyone who has a copy.
17:28:56 <Roujo> Vorpal: I nearly forked pifs just to make that pun =P
17:29:01 <Roujo> I was at work, though, so I didn't
17:29:05 <Deewiant> Vorpal: EFS already exists (actually there are many of them)
17:29:25 <Bike> so, question. what can we know about the relation between a sequence and its position in pi (assuming it's normal)? like, are the length of the sequence and the length of its position comparable?
17:29:40 <Vorpal> yeah I think I heard the name before for a normal file system
17:30:04 <boily> Roujo: where do you work?
17:30:06 <CADD> currently using rieserfs, liking it very much..
17:30:14 <CADD> funny using a murderers fs.. :)
17:30:15 <Bike> Vorpal: is one necessarily shorter, say
17:30:20 <Roujo> Programmer at Dicom Express, sur Côte-de-Liesse
17:31:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, really? I would have guessed that sometimes one would be longer and sometimes the other one would be longer.
17:31:20 <CADD> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser#Murder_investigation
17:31:46 <Bike> on average which is shorter?
17:31:48 <kmc> #[test] #[ignore(cfg(windows))] #[should_fail] fn select_doesnt_get_trolled() { select::<PortOne<()>>([]); }
17:31:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, on average they would be of similar lengths probably?
17:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the definition of normal is that a sequence of length n in base b has probability b^-n
17:33:42 <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the program itself isn't a murderer so that doesn't make it wrong
17:33:53 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the program itself isn't a murderer so that doesn't make it wrong
17:34:01 <HackEgo> 1090) <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the program itself isn't a murderer so that doesn't make it wrong
17:34:23 <CADD> zzo38: i know. its a good piece of software. just an interesting bit of history
17:34:48 <kmc> well the murder directly caused the end of development on reiserfs 4
17:35:00 <CADD> zzo38: i mean if i took some offence to it i wouldnt be using it.. :)
17:35:35 <Vorpal> reiserfs isn't bad because the lead devloper later went on to murder his wife. That is irrelevant to the file system. It is bad because of the various problems the file system has, such as recovering data from a damaged reiserfs having various issues
17:35:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, that can be how it is.
17:35:56 <kmc> although it seems that it's not known whether the euler-mascheroni constant is even irrational
17:36:06 <Vorpal> I used reiserfs back when it was the only journaling file system (back during 2.4 or 2.2 I think?)
17:36:13 <CADD> Vorpal: interesting, i didnt know about that. I've heard its journaling system is pretty good though. any links?
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17:36:35 <Bike> euler-mascheroni is a p. good constant
17:36:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ++
17:36:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh yeah, he has a far more eloquent way of expressing what I just said. ;)
17:37:14 <kmc> jeez just don't damage your filesystem
17:37:15 <kmc> what's the problem
17:37:43 <Bike> yes. yes indeed.
17:37:45 <Vorpal> kmc, wasn't there issues with storing a reiserfs in a loop image on a reiserfs iirc
17:37:51 <kmc> oh yeah that was funny
17:37:56 <Vorpal> kmc, might have been for file system recovery only, I don't remember
17:38:02 <Bike> i think we don't know if khinchin's constant is irrational either
17:38:09 <Bike> which is way weirder than not knowing about e-m, imo
17:38:18 <kmc> khinchin's constant is the weirdest
17:39:15 <kmc> maybe the aliens are transmitting on hydrogen times K_0 instead of hydrogen times pi
17:39:32 <Bike> "Among the numbers whose geometric mean of the coefficients ai in the continued fraction expansion apparently (based on numerical evidence) tends to Khinchin's constant are π, the Euler–Mascheroni constant γ, and Khinchin's constant itself. However, none of these limits has been rigorously established, even though it is known that almost all real numbers have this property."
17:39:45 <Bike> normal numbers all over again
17:40:58 <zzo38> What is hydrogen times K_0 and those stuff?
17:42:02 <Bike> in i think Contact (?) the aliens transmit information over the frequency of the spectral line of hydrogen times pi, or something
17:42:18 <HackEgo> 1089) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
17:43:05 <kmc> yeah what Bike said
17:43:58 <kmc> the fundamental whatever frequency of hydrogen is a good universal time/frequency reference, except that the universe is mostly made of hydrogen and your signals will get absorbed
17:44:06 <kmc> so multiply it by a unitless fundamental mathematical constant
17:45:40 <Bike> due to a misunderstanding it ends up being transmitted at hydrogen * the ratio of a foot to a meter
17:45:59 <Vorpal> Wouldn't it make more sense to simply double it or something. I suspect the electronics would be easier for that.
17:46:01 <kmc> hydrogen * pied
17:46:20 <kmc> Vorpal: 2 is a unitless fundamental mathematical constant, don't you think ;)
17:46:29 <CADD> Vorpal: still would have probably been absorbed
17:46:31 <Vorpal> kmc, I meant, as opposed to pi
17:46:44 <CADD> Vorpal: just my guess :)
17:46:48 <Bike> -1 is a fundamental mathematical constant :iiam:
17:47:49 <CADD> Vorpal: well actually at 1420.40575177 MHz, probably not
17:48:03 <Vorpal> kmc, also how many decimal places of pi are you multiplying the frequency with? Depending on that you would get slightly different frequencies
17:48:18 <boily> Bike: what is an iiam?
17:48:19 <kmc> Vorpal: depends on the bandwidth of the signal, I guess
17:48:21 <Vorpal> If you are sending on a narrow enough band that would cause an issue
17:48:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> kmc, also how many decimal places of pi are you multiplying the frequency with? Depending on that you would get slightly different frequencies
17:49:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "<Vorpal> If you are sending on a narrow enough band that would cause an issue"
17:49:19 <Bike> is that necessary phantom
17:49:38 <kmc> don't be a dick
17:49:54 <kmc> I mean I would probably generate pi digitally
17:50:08 <Bike> hm, maybe i should read some khinchin, as long as i'm doing commie maths
17:50:39 <Bike> "Khinchin graduated from the university in 1916 and six years later he became a full professor there, retaining that position until his death [in 1959]" tenure sure is crazy
17:50:42 <CADD> speaking of generating pi AND continued fractions; one of my favorate mathematicians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan
17:50:48 <kmc> if indirectly, e.g. to position the laser which cuts the crystal to have hydrogen * pi frequency
17:50:59 <kmc> are there any cool analog ways to compute pi, by the way?
17:51:12 <kmc> there's the thing where you throw sticks at a grid lattice
17:51:13 * boily shakes Bike with an interesting frequency profile “WHAT IS AN IIAM???!!!!11!!!!one!!!!”
17:51:18 <Bike> well what do you mean by compute i guess
17:51:19 <Roujo> Baking one then measuring it?
17:51:26 <Vorpal> kmc, how would you modulate your signal once you have the frequency btw? AM? FM? PSK? Or something else?
17:51:29 <Bike> otherwise i'd just.... "hey, here, a circle"
17:52:07 <kmc> Vorpal: in _Contant_ the basic carrier / get-your-attention signal is on-off-keying of the first n prime numbers in unary
17:52:13 <kmc> _Contact_*
17:52:16 <kmc> that seems pretty reasonable
17:52:22 <Fiora> kmc: you could, like, wrap a string around a circle
17:52:40 <Vorpal> kmc, that seems like a really inefficient modulation
17:52:46 <Bike> unrelated: i always mentally compare contact with his master's voice, where the get-your-intention is just repetition
17:52:47 <Vorpal> for any data transfer that is
17:53:11 <Bike> they harvest neutrino spin data to make random numbers and somebody who wanted random complains when the sequence starts repeating
17:53:12 <kmc> Vorpal: sure; once they notice your signal, you can expect them to put in more effort to decode a second, more efficient form of modulation
17:53:37 <Bike> or neutrino... something... i don't know physics
17:54:28 <CADD> Bike: background radiation is usually a pretty good RNG: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/hardware3.html
17:54:52 <Bike> well yeah, the fact they're getting a repetitive signal out of something that's usually a RNG is what kicks off the plot.
17:55:13 <Bike> because it's caused by ~aliens~ (probably)
17:55:23 <Bike> the book's a lot more pessimistic than contact, really.
17:55:44 <CADD> Bike: ooh, i didnt know that was from the movie
17:56:18 <Bike> i am talking about a book that is not contact
17:56:37 <kmc> http://stefangeens.com/2005/04/talking-to-aliens-part-iii-khinchins-constant-source-of-wonder/ what do you think of the last few paragraphs here
17:57:48 <Bike> "What is so special about K? It is one of the very few numbers capable of giving the driest of mathematical texts exclamatory hiccups." heh!
17:58:14 <Bike> continued fractions are weird. they're pretty cool but not really used that much i think
17:58:42 <CADD> Bike: yeah and Ramanujan was the master of continued fractions
17:59:00 <CADD> Bike: too bad he died so young..
18:00:10 <CADD> "Ramanujan's series for # converges extraordinarily rapidly (exponentially) and forms the basis of some of the fastest algorithms currently used to calculate #. Truncating the sum to the first term also gives the approximation 9801\sqrt{2}/4412 for #, which is correct to six decimal places."
18:00:36 <CADD> its copied from the wiki page about hit
18:01:23 <Bike> i think my favorite ramanujanisms are the iterated root things, probably because i can actually understand them
18:02:15 <CADD> what is it called?
18:03:00 <Bike> oh, it's "nested" for some reason
18:03:18 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nested_radical#Some_identities_of_Ramanujan e.g.
18:03:41 <Bike> also infinitely nested radicals, which is what i was thinking of
18:04:14 <Bike> kmc: "What does this imply? It implies that the sequence of whole numbers that describes K, [...] is simultaneously described by K" i dunno about this, as descriptions go i'd usually expect a one to one mapping not a one to everything mapping
18:04:31 <kmc> how do you mean
18:05:02 <Bike> like, K "describes" real numbers (with probability one) by this meaning
18:05:08 <Bike> which isn't really what i'd think "describes" as meaning.
18:06:37 <Bike> not that K might not be a good choice, i just don't think it as obviously signifies self-reference as the author seems to think
18:07:02 <kmc> yeah me either
18:07:48 <Bike> plus, i dunno, there's a lot of speculative xenopsychology you have to do here, that ties in uncomfortably with philosophy of mathematics, and we really don't have any other data on understanding of math but in humans
18:08:00 <kmc> standard sort of waving your hands and saying "strange loop!"
18:08:09 <kmc> which is about the only thing you can do with the "strange loop" concept, fun though it is
18:08:29 <Bike> i've kind of been less enamored of hofstadter lately, it's sad
18:08:42 <kmc> xenopsychology and exo-politics
18:09:01 <kmc> IAASL was a pretty depressing book for me
18:09:02 <boily> do we have any sentient non-humans on this channel?
18:09:09 <kmc> fungot: are you sentient?
18:09:09 <fungot> kmc: they say that a diamond is another kind of great dark worm, but three lefts do. these were the thirteen choosers of the king, by edith hamilton), farma- god ( god of commerce, trade and travellers. he has been a bit of a lion, a thirty-league stretch of potholes and half-buried rocks that spirals around mountains and dips into cool green valleys of citrus trees, crosses liana-webbed gorges on creaking rope bridges and is t
18:09:18 <kmc> _I Am A Strange Loop_
18:09:40 <Bike> i never read iaasl
18:09:42 <boily> oh. thanks for the mentionment. I find that I lack depressing books.
18:09:50 <kmc> in which Hofstadter restates the thesis of GEB but without any of the playfulness
18:09:54 <zzo38> But three lefts do what?
18:09:57 <kmc> it's just like "damn it you guys didn't get it the first time"
18:10:00 <Bike> i got fluid analogies but after a while it was just like, why don't you get some evidence instead of making up interesting toys
18:10:00 <kmc> "let me spell it out"
18:10:19 <kmc> also he's sad because his wife died
18:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> that puts his harem of beautiful french women in a decidedly harsher light
18:10:40 <Bike> well the french one was wife-death-centric but pretty good, i think
18:10:52 <kmc> hofstadter has a harem of beautiful french women?
18:11:18 <Bike> french one meaning ton beau, i mean
18:11:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: theme: not found
18:11:34 <kmc> Bike: i read a little of that book, it seemed pretty cool
18:11:46 <Bike> kmc: i thought it was, though i'm monolingual
18:11:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:11:53 <zzo38> I wrote a quine with FurryScript by now.
18:12:10 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
18:12:14 <boily> zzo38: how dare you being on-topic.
18:12:38 <kmc> you should write a quine named mefloquine
18:12:40 <Bike> kmc: lots of cute stuff about lipograms and serious stuff about the very real difficulties of translation, complete with music analogies
18:12:58 <Bike> i forget if that book got me into Lem but it might have, and if so it's automatically good
18:13:08 <kmc> I still think GEB is a good book although my recommendation comes with some qualifiers now
18:13:11 <zzo38> kmc: What is a mefloquine?
18:13:14 <kmc> which basically boil down to "don't take it too seriously"
18:13:18 <kmc> zzo38: an anti-malarial drug
18:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i will say this in hofstadter's defence, he's far far better than wolfram
18:13:37 <kmc> zzo38: which can cause vivid terrifying dreams as a side effect
18:13:43 <Bike> phantom that's like saying vietnam is better than the khmer rouge
18:14:19 <kmc> Captain Planet / He's our hero / Gonna take polution / Down to zero / By de-industrializing the planet and killing 90% of the population
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18:14:32 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is better than Wolfram
18:14:38 <Bike> the frustrating thing about hofstadter for me is basically psychologist's fallacy, because i mean he's not a crank or anything, obviously.
18:14:46 <kmc> which fallacy is that
18:15:05 <zzo38> I think Godel,Escher,Bach is a very good book; I do not agree with everything written there but I agree some and you can read a book it is good whether or not you agree.
18:15:13 <Bike> the one where you take your conscious experience of a mental event to be true of the mental event, and of that sort of mental event in general
18:15:23 <Bike> like "hm i think with analogies, this must be the basis for cognition"
18:15:28 <kmc> GEB is still a great intro to formal metamathematics
18:15:31 <kmc> accessible yet precise
18:15:40 <kmc> and the rest of the book is fun if you don't take it too seriously
18:15:41 <Bike> definitely. it's the only one i can think of but still good
18:15:49 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, although I think it is a pretty good book in general.
18:15:49 <kmc> 16 year old kmc may have taken it too seriously
18:15:55 <Bike> maybe to mock a mockingbird? i haven't read that.
18:15:57 <kmc> but that's OK
18:16:06 <kmc> Bike: that's pretty different stuff i think
18:16:16 <Bike> i imagine it doesn't cover peano arithmetic, no
18:16:17 <kmc> I don't know what all it covers, whether it gets to Gödel and such
18:16:37 <boily> I remember reading “The Quark and the Jaguar”, and being thoroughly confused.
18:16:43 <Bike> GEB's a hard game to top, really, i mean how many math books have won a pulitzer
18:16:50 <kmc> combinatory calculus would be a less conventional way to present Gödel etc, for sure
18:16:53 <kmc> but could be done
18:17:18 <coppro> google now has streetview in the tardis
18:17:19 <Bike> i think Mock does go into church numerals at least, so you could present godel in a conventionalish way
18:17:42 <kmc> does it have theorems and proofs as strings, though
18:17:52 <kmc> I mean sure you can encode that in pure lambda calc, but it's kind of ass-backwards
18:19:49 <zzo38> The quine in FurryScript is a bit based on the GEB so it says "ENIUQ" as the name of a subroutine; but it also takes advantage of a feature of FurryScript; if a template references a subroutine/list that doesn't exist, it will just output the template literally instead. Also, multiple values on the stack at the end have a line break in between; it takes advantage of that too.
18:20:32 <zzo38> Since anything on the stack at the end of a FurryScript program that isn't a string will be ignored, a simple program such as "42" will output nothing and isn't a quine.
18:20:52 <Bike> i think my favorite part of GEB is actually one of the pictures, of a cerebrum filled with correct small arithmetic equations, which together form a giant "2+2=5"
18:21:40 <zzo38> Bike: Yes that is good too, but there is things in the book I like it is good in general
18:21:44 <kmc> 2+2=5 (The lukewarm.)
18:22:03 <Bike> alas hofstadter is not into radiohead.
18:22:21 <kmc> how do you know?
18:22:42 <Bike> in ton beau de marot there's an extended analogy relating to how he personally doesn't like rock music
18:23:44 <Bike> clearly we need a hipper, younger, metalhead hofstadter
18:23:51 -!- kmc has set topic: Open your mind, we need you to fly | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
18:24:39 <kmc> Radiohead has a lot of songs that aren't "rock music" although that's not particularly one of them
18:25:08 * Bike imagines ledzep cover of Fitter Happier.
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18:27:42 <zzo38> Why do you need you to fly?
18:28:08 <olsner> `learn radiohead is "rock music"
18:28:24 <fizzie> Open your fly, we need you to mind.
18:29:06 <zzo38> Why do you need you to mind?
18:30:00 <Bike> "In summary, a rational number is perfectly approximated by itself, but is badly approximated by any other rational number." math is deep
18:31:03 <zzo38> Bike: Does that really mean anything?
18:31:48 <Vorpal> Bike, to me that sounds like a very silly way to express it.
18:32:34 <Bike> yes, it's a summary, i'm reading about diophantine approximation
18:32:50 <metasepia> Originated or taught by Diophantus, the Greek writer on algebra.
18:33:11 <zzo38> Of course I don't fly, but I did once play a flying character in a computer game (now broken!!), and dream of being like that too once, but I don't fly; I need to open a wing to fly not a mind!
18:33:42 <Bike> more formally, say we're approximating p/q by another ratio a/b (such that it's not just a multiple); then abs(a/b - p/q) >= 1/(bq)
18:34:29 <zzo38> Bike: O, that would be more meaningful, then.
18:35:03 <Bike> which is bad compared to irrationals; for example for an algebraic number x of degree n you have abs(x - p/q) > c(x)/q^n for all p, nonzero q, where c(x) is constant rel. to x
18:36:11 <Bike> also, apparently if two reals are related by a mobius transform, they have the same continued fraction expansion except for a finite prefix. that's pretty cool imo
18:37:24 <Bike> guess it kinda makes intuitive sense though.
18:44:05 <fizzie> Diophantine ducks are the best ducks?
18:45:51 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlewood_conjecture wtf
18:47:59 <kmc> that's pretty weird
19:25:49 <shachaf> kmc: just use 1-10 like everyone else
19:27:37 <kmc> you are the confuser
19:27:45 <kmc> also what do you think of lamport signatures????
19:27:53 <kmc> I must know
19:27:56 <shachaf> help you asked about that yesterday and i was going to read about them
19:28:25 <kmc> imo do that now
19:29:06 <boily> ~duck lamport signature
19:29:07 <metasepia> In cryptography, a Lamport signature or Lamport one-time signature scheme is a method for constructing a digital signature.
19:30:45 <shachaf> kmc: oh, that's not complicated
19:30:55 <kmc> it's so nice :)
19:30:57 <shachaf> it's like a zero knowledge proof thing
19:31:10 <kmc> in that it uses a committment scheme? (somewhat ad-hoc)
19:31:33 <kmc> it's non-interactive though
19:34:11 <shachaf> The whole thing where you can only use a key once isn't great.
19:34:36 <kmc> you can use Merkle trees to publish a whole bunch of keys at once (they were invented for this application)
19:34:53 <kmc> but you still need to keep track of which ones you've used, which is bad
19:35:21 <boily> how come tracking your used keys is bad?
19:35:38 <kmc> if that information gets stale somehow, you will compromise security
19:35:51 <kmc> or if you want to sign messages from multiple devices
19:36:16 <kmc> (probably it would be best to partition your various merkelized one-use keys among the devices ahead of time)
19:36:18 <shachaf> by the way, is there a provably secure authentication thing like a one-time pad are provably secure for encryption
19:36:39 <kmc> it's neat how much engineering there is in cryptography
19:36:47 <kmc> rather than just high level math I will never understand
19:38:01 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know; you should ask ##crypto maybe
19:38:20 <kmc> you could send your message in the clear and also OTP encrypted
19:38:35 <kmc> and the receiver "verifies" by decrypting and comparing
19:39:04 <shachaf> but someone could tamper with both
19:39:22 <boily> with all the crypto-scares floating on the intarwebs, is there only a single guy out there that can do crypto right?
19:39:31 <shachaf> by xoring both with something
19:39:31 <boily> (modulo schneier, obviously)
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19:39:36 <kmc> shachaf: yeah you're right
19:39:41 <shachaf> i mean, if you send that, you've sent your secret otp key
19:39:53 <kmc> what I said is total nonsense
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20:07:36 <zzo38> Washizu mahjong results in vey different strategies from ordinary mahjong.
20:09:08 <shachaf> kmc: so there's http://web.mit.edu/6.857/OldStuff/Fall97/lectures/lecture3.pdf
20:09:49 <kmc> yeah, i found that
20:13:32 <zzo38> Do you mean, about Washizu mahjong? With most of the tiles being transparent and the way the teams and payment works, it is a very different kind of game.
20:15:24 <boily> yeah, did you play washizu? I'm curious about the strategies involved and the amount of stress and sweating and internal dialog and drama and cliffhangers.
20:21:54 <zzo38> I didn't really play mahjong much at all. I have once played at some anime convention, the Washizu mahjong, but other than that I haven't play much except in the computer game "Akagi DS".
20:22:19 <zzo38> But from thinking about the rules, reading manga, and a little bit of playing such a game, I can know how difference it really is.
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20:29:22 <Bike> Fiora: guess who found the xenobiology labs at school
20:31:57 <Fiora> bike is a kid in the candy store :3
20:33:40 <Bike> @google "a two-tiered approach to assessing the habitability of exoplanets"
20:33:44 <lambdabot> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22017274
20:33:44 <lambdabot> Title: A two-tiered approach to assessing the habitabi... [Astrobiology. 2011] - Pub...
20:34:09 <Bike> also a giant board of research on positrons
20:35:13 <boily> I want a positron plushie.
20:35:15 <Bike> also whatever the heck this is http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7451968
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20:46:58 <boily> *trumpet ♪* http://www.particlezoo.net/individual_pages/shop_positron.html *trumpet ♪*
21:04:04 <Bike> http://www.andrewt.net/blog/wp-content/old/map8.jpg
21:04:18 <Bike> i'm a big fan of greenland being sucked into the void.
21:04:45 <Bike> i mean. not the actual place. greenland is cool.
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21:09:17 * boily pokes the void left by lambdabot
21:09:30 <boily> Bike: that is some disorienting map.
21:10:58 <Bike> mercator projections are great, apparnetly.
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21:22:04 <boily> time to go see small pixelised characters attack other small pixelised characters.
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21:56:11 <zzo38> Can we do collaboration to make up some computer game, do you want to do so? Is it good so far what I put in myself?
21:56:28 <shachaf> What have you put in yourself so far?
21:56:44 <zzo38> Why don't you look at it? It is too long to write in this IRC.
21:57:36 <zzo38> I case you forgot, here it is: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
21:57:58 <shachaf> Forgot? I've never seen that before.
21:58:27 <zzo38> Well, it doesn't matter whether or not you have ever seen it before; if you don't remember now, then I can tell you.
22:00:54 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I make an unofficial sequel and call it "Uselessness RPG 1.5"?
22:01:10 <oerjan> @ask Vorpal you're not the Vorpal who is playing r/nommit, are you? i am assuming not but cannot resist asking.
22:01:24 <shachaf> @ask elliott to fix lambdabot
22:01:25 <zzo38> shachaf: If you want to, I suppose you can.
22:01:28 <oerjan> of course it would be more efficient if lambdabot were here
22:01:49 <Koen_> oerjan: are you saying there's a game of NOMIC currently running on REDDIT?
22:01:58 <shachaf> oerjan: If only everyone logread, @ask would be unnecessary!
22:02:14 <oerjan> Koen_: sure, also it's discussed some in ##nomic
22:02:22 <zzo38> shachaf: But before the sequel, we should make up the actual game, anyways. See the files listed there, and if you have anything to add or any comments, you can also add it on there yourself if you have OpenID
22:02:49 <oerjan> shachaf: it's ok it's probably fate trying to prevent me from getting the question through to Vorpal
22:03:19 <oerjan> Koen_: they also just advertised on the agora lists
22:03:30 <shachaf> zzo38: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,map_encoding is a broken link.
22:03:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I know; I didn't write all of the files yet.
22:03:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe you can answer my question: Why does (<|>) :: f a -> f a -> f a, while (<*>) :: f a -> f b -> f (a,b)?
22:04:09 <shachaf> You can turn (<|>) into f a -> f b -> f (Either a b) if you want
22:04:24 <shachaf> But you can't make an equivalent untyped version of (<*>).
22:04:37 <shachaf> (Ignore the fact that (<*>) is actually :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b.)
22:05:04 <zzo38> The <*> you described (which isn't the real one) is more like what I called "liftPair"
22:05:06 <Koen_> oerjan: I keep trying to convince myself that I follow what's going on on the agora list
22:06:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Is the other files OK though?
22:06:50 <zzo38> (I am writing the map encodings now)
22:07:07 <oerjan> Koen_: it was "just" as in slightly earlier today, though.
22:07:08 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know. The website is very slow.
22:08:30 <zzo38> shachaf: That is Gregor's job; not mine. (You can also download a backup of all of the files if you like to do that; it outputs a shell script which will recreate all of the files, including the program for making the backups.)
22:09:52 <Koen_> I was busy socializing
22:10:06 <zzo38> Now a short part of the "map_encoding" file is written.
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22:27:27 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of unusual ideas?
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22:36:42 <nooodl> zzo38: i don't like how the game is written in Z-machine
22:36:53 <nooodl> that makes it hard to collaborate
22:37:39 <zzo38> nooodl: Well, I suppose it doesn't make it *easy* to collaborate, but this is in wiki so I mean collaborate in wiki; this would be done regardless of the system it is written in.
22:39:00 <zzo38> Therefore nobody (other than myself) needs to do anything special due to being Z-machine.
22:42:35 <Koen_> so you can download a backup that will output a script that will recreate the program that makes the backups?
22:42:45 <Koen_> soudns complicated and circular
22:43:14 <zzo38> It isn't really so complicated; the program that makes the backups just happens to be a file like any other, so that is why it does that.
22:44:16 <zzo38> Koen_: If you try then you can see how it works.
22:44:34 <oerjan> <zzo38> But three lefts do what? <-- make a right, in the usual joke
22:45:02 <Koen_> unless you tell me that it's all z-code and I don't want to download the z-machine thing
22:45:36 <Koen_> I tried Inform 7 and I found it incredibly bad
22:45:38 <zzo38> Koen_: There isn't any Z-machine file of this game yet, anyways. But the backup program is just a shell script anyways, not Z-machine. It is plain text so it will display inline.
22:45:58 <zzo38> I don't like Inform 7 either, but it isn't the only programming language for Z-machine; I am using Frolg, which I wrote myself.
22:46:10 <zzo38> I think someone in here mentioned the "grep ''" trick; I used that in the backup script.
22:46:16 <Koen_> see that's the problem there
22:47:09 <Koen_> interactive fiction isn't something new and it should be easy to do
22:47:25 <zzo38> And there is no need for anyone other than myself to know the programming language used since I will program it myself; but the collaboration would be for the planning/ideas.
22:47:41 <Koen_> the simple fact that you would find it more convenient to write your own language than to use one that already exists shows how bad things are
22:47:47 <zzo38> (as well as such things as music and graphics, but this game doesn't have any graphics)
22:48:30 <zzo38> Koen_: I already did write the Frolg assembler (it is a macro assembler; the other Z-machine assemblers don't support macros).
22:49:03 <zzo38> Other programming languages for Z-machine include ZIL, Inform 6, ZAP, Zasm, Inform 7, Frolg.
22:49:59 <zzo38> But in order to make everything fit in the way I want to, my program is the only one sufficient.
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23:02:52 <oerjan> <Bike> Fiora: guess who found the xenobiology labs at school <-- now you just have to find where they hide the aliens hth
23:03:09 <oerjan> @ask Vorpal you're not the Vorpal who is playing r/nommit, are you? i am assuming not but cannot resist asking.
23:06:47 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
23:17:50 <kmc> apparently "if False: yield None" is a Python idiom
23:18:26 <kmc> well put it inside 'def' and you have a generator that generates an empty sequence
23:18:28 <Bike> do you have to put a "yield" into a coroutine for the interpreter or some shit
23:18:48 <kmc> if the body of a 'def' contains a yield statement anywhere, it has totally different semantics
23:19:09 <kmc> namely a 'call' to the function won't execute any of the body, but will return an object where calling .next() runs until the next yield
23:19:30 <Bike> so, right, bullshit.
23:19:53 <kmc> basically yeah
23:20:24 <kmc> this came up because https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-August/005169.html
23:21:05 <kmc> btw if any of you want to be involved in the design of an interesting, serious PL that might even get used one day, you should subscribe to rust-dev and join mozilla #rust and stuff
23:21:09 <Bike> «The way "yield return" works in C# is that it rewrites the code into a state machine behind the scenes.» aha, i thought so
23:21:17 <kmc> coppro: fuck you, counterpoint
23:21:35 <coppro> kmc: but you're just supporting my argument
23:21:44 <kmc> seriously though, what's your problem with rust
23:23:46 <coppro> there's no consistency
23:23:52 <coppro> at any given time, much less next week
23:24:24 <kmc> yeah that is a fair criticism
23:24:45 <kmc> I spent all of last week porting a large codebase to deal with a month's worth of changes in Rust
23:24:50 <kmc> so believe me, I feel that
23:25:02 <coppro> I actually don't know so I could be full of shit
23:25:11 <coppro> but I get the impression that the devs don't actually have a clue what they're doing
23:25:12 <kmc> but like... the language isn't done yet, of course it's going to change, better to fix problems while we still can
23:25:29 <kmc> coppro: you're wrong about that, for sure
23:25:46 <kmc> if you don't want to use a language that changes rapidly then wait a year
23:25:59 <kmc> I think it is getting more consistent over time
23:26:04 <coppro> I mean, they're clearly competent devs
23:26:19 <coppro> but they don't display any ability to manage a useful project
23:26:32 <elliott> didn't you just say you don't actually know...
23:26:41 <kmc> I agree that the internal consistency of the language (at any given moment in time) is somewhat lacking
23:26:51 <kmc> I mean, I use Rust every day, so I have no shortage of gripes :)
23:27:22 <kmc> some of that is being fixed gradually
23:27:46 <kmc> some of it we are probably stuck with (like one-variant enums being different from structs) but also maybe not a huge deal
23:28:25 <kmc> or like the weird support for multi-parameter traits where the last type parameter is special :/
23:28:44 <kmc> and the special treatment of static vs non-static methods in traits
23:29:26 <kmc> I can't speak to the management skills of the Rust team, as I have zero management experience
23:30:35 <kmc> they are good developers and they are people who actually understand PL theory and research (which is astoundingly uncommon among people designing a PL)
23:30:51 <kmc> even if I wish more of them had known more Haskell years ago :)
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23:35:50 <shachaf> kmc: I think "struct" could be changed to be syntax sugar for a one-variant enum pretty backwards-compatibly.
23:36:38 <shachaf> Right now enum Foo { Foo { ... } } doesn't even work, though.
23:36:45 <shachaf> Which looks like some sort of namespacing issue?
23:39:01 <kmc> the other thing about Rust is that it's incredibly ambitious
23:39:22 <kmc> there's no existing language remotely close to mainstream that does what Rust is trying to do
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23:45:00 <kmc> HEY GUYS I OWN A MACBOOK PRO
23:46:30 <kmc> i don't, I was mocking copumpkin's quit message
23:46:35 <Bike> i know someone who had to buy a macbook for school
23:46:39 <Bike> because that's a thing apparently
23:46:54 <kmc> "hey guys" is an idiom in my social circle
23:47:12 <elliott> that's the default quit message of a client I think
23:47:12 <shachaf> i've seen that idiom before
23:47:17 <Bike> she was unexcited, since she's not well-off, but i guess you Need One for the Arts
23:47:22 <elliott> like "sent from my iphone"
23:47:37 <kmc> meant to call out that somebody is dropping hints about being rich, or that they had sex recently or whatever
23:47:52 <kmc> elliott: that one at least has some purpose as "sorry for the brevity / poor spelling of this message"
23:48:03 <kmc> shachaf: I think it may be from SomethingAwful? most things are
23:49:15 <shachaf> kmc: should i pay :10bux: to learn more
23:49:30 <kmc> dunno, I really enjoyed having a SA forum subscription back in the day
23:49:33 <kmc> I don't use it much anymore
23:49:40 <kmc> I log in like once every 3 months, usually while drunk
23:49:42 <shachaf> it looks like it's more like :35bux:
23:49:45 <Bike> the science boards are actually kinda nice
23:49:54 <kmc> back in my day they had a pretty legit torrent subforum
23:49:57 <kmc> shachaf: how so?
23:50:06 <Bike> well you have to pay if you want an avatar or whatever.
23:50:14 <kmc> That's How They Get You™
23:50:18 <Bike> still ten bucks to read and post, though.
23:50:23 <shachaf> well, with the archive upgrade and the no-ads upgrade and the platinum upgrade
23:50:26 <kmc> you can also pay to change someone else's avatar, right?
23:50:50 <kmc> the Debate and Discussion threads were pretty good in the 2008 election and may have contributed to me winning big on Intrade
23:51:01 <kmc> uh the drugz subforum is good
23:51:03 <Bike> it's pretty great reading the linguist thread and they're talking about Pinker or whatever, and somebody has hateful redtext because of an argument elsewhere about vidya gamez
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23:51:11 <kmc> hahaha yes
23:51:34 <Bike> i heard recently a mod in the drugz forum got demodded because he suggested somebody addicted to heroin just try acid, or something like that
23:51:56 <kmc> acid has been studied for treating alcoholism
23:52:07 <kmc> and ibogaine is used to treat opiate addiction
23:52:09 <Bike> the idea was, instead of rehab
23:52:12 <Bike> for... some reason.
23:52:13 <kmc> in sketchy contexts
23:52:19 <kmc> but anecdotally does work
23:53:01 <kmc> I dunno man
23:53:05 <kmc> don't get addicted to heroin ok
23:53:11 <kmc> that's the best solution
23:53:20 <shachaf> are you saying i should just try it a few times instead
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23:56:24 <Bike_> really excited by this hardware failure thing.
23:56:46 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:57:43 <kmc> what kind of hardware failure?
23:58:03 <Bike_> when i jolt my netbook the network card dies. apparently.
23:58:06 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:58:36 <Bike> i mean, it was inevitable, this thing cost like two hundred bucks, but still irritating
23:59:35 <kmc> lately I'm using a $200 netbook from 6 years ago
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00:06:37 <Bike> it works pretty well since internet is most of what i use it for
00:06:50 <Bike> everybody in my dorm is a gamer so i'm clearly inadequate, but still
00:10:28 <Bike> i swung by the CS labs and the local LUG runs starcraft tournaments, kinda sad i can't get in on that except i suck at starcraft anyway
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00:28:34 <Sgeo> `slist You come to the sobering realization that things will never stop from keep happening constantly.
00:28:35 <HackEgo> slist You come to the sobering realization that things will never stop from keep happening constantly.: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:33:14 <Bike> http://100percentmen.tumblr.com/ awesome
00:50:29 <Bike> "The staff of Posterous in 2011 (they now have one woman engineer), the entire staff of IFTTT (at least they named the dog Lady), the entire management team at Autonomy and Pivotal, the executives of Foursquare, the team at Couple.me (an app for dating), the boards of Pandora and Rackspace and Fairchild Semiconductor (plenty more where that came from here)."
00:51:03 <ion> bike: The Equality Unit of Finland’s Ministry of Social Affairs and Health that consists of 100 % women. http://puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/sites/default/files/imagecache/biggest/domain-2050/kuvat/Tasa-arvoyksikko.png
00:52:05 <Bike> i don't know finnish names, at all
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00:53:57 <shachaf> "neljä" is a nice-sounding finnish name. unfortunately it means "four".
00:54:36 <Fiora> Bike: "The entire applied math department at Harvard." wooow
00:54:47 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:55:22 <Bike> also everyone who's ever won a fields medal, and (not on the blog) the nevanlinna prize, abel prize, or gauss prize.
00:56:23 <Bike> of course there have only been two gauss prizes.
00:57:03 <Fiora> (I was clearly so spoiled at college -_-)
00:57:23 <Bike> well, women have won the turing prize, at least.
01:00:05 <Bike> it's all very... stark.
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01:05:17 <Fiora> Bike: http://31.media.tumblr.com/54be05e8ce5134d78327d58e515d8830/tumblr_mlglcd1Oxb1sonq8lo1_1280.png geez, they all blend together
01:05:40 <Bike> i'm probably gonna look like that someday *sigh*
01:05:48 <Bike> maybe i should cover my face in tattoos
01:06:00 <Bike> of like... walruses.
01:06:09 <Bike> dunno why that's the first thing i thought of, looking at this image.
01:06:27 <Fiora> I think this goes with my "wow I am bad at telling white dudes apart" thing from a bit back
01:08:20 <Bike> what does "collegiate" mean here anyway.
01:08:22 <Bike> @wn collegiate
01:08:24 <lambdabot> *** "collegiate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:08:24 <lambdabot> adj 1: of or resembling or typical of a college or college
01:08:24 <lambdabot> students; "collegiate living"; "collegiate attitudes";
01:08:24 <lambdabot> "collegiate clothes" [syn: {collegiate}, {collegial}]
01:10:59 <Bike> i don't get what this has to do with finance.
01:11:29 <Fiora> maybe I should look it up in mirriam-webster's collegiate dictionary
01:11:51 <elliott> collegiate dictionary, n. a dictionary with just the word "collegiate" in it and nothing else
01:11:57 <Fiora> huh. "Collegiate" is actually a trademark
01:12:57 <Bike> does this mean i can sue charterhouse
01:16:04 <zzo38> Sue them for what?
01:16:13 <Bike> trademark violation
01:21:27 <oerjan> it has to be _your_ trademark to sue, Bike. well for it not to be thrown out of court, anyhow.
01:22:15 <Bike> what if i was to claim that i am possessed by the gestalt spirit of the merriam-webster company
01:25:44 <oerjan> do you _really_ want to be controlled by shareholders, i ask you.
01:26:17 <oerjan> shareholder necromancers, now there's a thought.
01:27:12 <shachaf> oerjan: so why aren't you in #-lens
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01:37:53 <oerjan> why in the world would i be in #-lens.
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02:02:23 <zzo38> Do you have other idea for this game, of player character, non player character, items, spells, currency exchange rate, etc? See if you know some!
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03:53:43 <Gracenotes> hm. it probably doesn't speak well if my esprit de l'escalier for situation today was "with your mother"
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03:58:50 <zzo38> What does that mean?
04:07:25 <oerjan> ~duck esprit de l'escalier
04:07:42 <Bike> isn't it something you think of on the stairway after losing the opportunity for the good burn
04:07:57 <oerjan> sheesh why are bots never around when you need them
04:08:03 <kmc> pub fn clone_with_style(&self)
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04:10:50 <Bike> kmc: oh shit, i just now connected hyperloop and musk. people have been gushing about hyperloop and complaining about musk being a rich fuck on my twitter feed
04:10:54 <Bike> it all makes sense
04:11:15 <kmc> now you know
04:11:54 <kmc> it's just a larger scale version of the usual 'i am a rails developer therefore I am qualified to redesign transport / nutrition / the alphabet' that you can see on Hacker News every day
04:12:20 <Bike> thankfully i haven't been on hacker news in like a year now.
04:12:32 <kmc> you say that like you're holding a "ONE YEAR" chip
04:12:47 <Bike> at least i never had an account!!
04:13:08 <kmc> anyway we have this fantasy that a SV billionaire will magically fix everything
04:13:33 <Sgeo> Silicon Valley I assume
04:13:37 <kmc> because the large institutions we would need to actually fix everything are hopelessly dysfunctional
04:13:45 <Sgeo> Also, didn't he say he isn't buillding it?
04:13:48 <Bike> hm that reminds me of a quote
04:14:29 <kmc> http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/loopy-ideas-are-fine-if-youre-an-entrepreneur/ is I guess the definitive takedown of Hyperloop
04:14:33 <kmc> at least everyone is linking it now
04:15:28 <kmc> less capacity than a single freeway lane
04:15:38 <Bike> http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2012/06/23/155632386/sorkins-newsroom-is-no-place-for-optimism
04:15:44 <kmc> cost estimates that are beyond nonsensical
04:15:46 <kmc> oh god that show
04:16:02 <kmc> season 2 is running now
04:16:09 <kmc> I'm going to watch it even though part of me will hate myself for it
04:16:13 <kmc> Sorkin is a guilty pleasure for sure
04:16:28 <kmc> wash it down with some Armando Iannuci I guess
04:16:30 <kmc> the anti-Sorkin
04:16:32 <Bike> Yeah, a friend's watching it for some reason. I think when Trayvon Martin was mentioned for the first time he just stared at a wall for five minutes, reconsidering his sins
04:16:42 <kmc> (I read this article a while back)
04:16:49 <kmc> wait they actually got to Trayvon Martin already
04:17:06 <Bike> i was thinking of the part where the wire has super diseased institutions and then sorkin's just like, hey graphs
04:17:26 <kmc> Sorkin really is a very good writer, within a very narrow definition of "writer"
04:17:53 <kmc> but he's too much of an egomaniac to team up with others who can handle the things he's not good at, like plot, characters, women, etc
04:18:00 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-hoping-the-newsroom-ends-before-trayvon-mar,33135/
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04:18:04 <elliott> (have never watched any Sorkin show)
04:18:37 <Bike> «MacKenzie calls one of the show's objectives "speaking truth to stupid"» is this show real
04:19:06 <kmc> yes I have seen it and that is a direct quote
04:19:20 <Bike> well, a while back i saw a quote of sorkin saying he thought he'd have fit in great back in the 40s, the last time america was great
04:19:35 <Bike> so i just, kinda am now disregarding anything about him.
04:20:44 <Bike> i've just been transferring from "why are people so dumb" to "why is everything so incredibly fucked but still works" mentality, so
04:20:50 <Sgeo> kmc: I feel gullible now
04:21:12 <Sgeo> I thought the main problem with Hyperloop was just that some other company would need to build it, and hopefully they would be reviewing it first
04:21:22 <Sgeo> Not ... fundamental issues with this design
04:21:38 <kmc> well you're presumably not an expert at railway design so that's ok
04:21:52 <kmc> neither am i, neither is elon musk, neither are the newspapers cheering him on
04:22:14 <kmc> his proposal also contains some lies about the existing California High Speed Rail project
04:22:30 <Sgeo> I didn't even read the proposal at that point
04:22:49 <kmc> which is going to take forever to build and will be way too expensive and have all kinds of dumb elements, but should be basically a working modern high speed line
04:23:17 <kmc> and the same door to door time as Hyperloop when you factor in that Hyperloop takes you from middle of nowhere distant suburb of LA to middle of nowhere distant suburb of SF
04:23:45 <kmc> he doesn't even have a *fantasy* of how to route it to downtown
04:24:27 <Bike> life's too short to read rail proposals by amateurs
04:24:37 <kmc> I like fantasy maps as much as the next guy
04:24:52 <Bike> i like them more if the person making them has some kind of clue
04:24:53 <kmc> by which I mean "far more than any reasonable person"
04:25:00 <Bike> also if they're not rich. fuck the bourgeoisie. fuck the police
04:25:40 <Sgeo> I think it doesn't help that Elon Musk's name sounds like Ebon Muse
04:25:43 <Sgeo> I should sleep
04:26:00 <kmc> 'night Sgeo
04:26:53 <Fiora> kmc: there seems to be that certain sort of person who looks at some big system that looks wrong or terrible to them and thinks "gosh, I can do better that those idiots with way more experience than me"
04:27:15 <Fiora> I guess it's kind of like the climate science thing of "gosh, all these thousands of experts in the field, they're just dumb, how come they never thought of /this/"
04:27:28 <kmc> that's all
04:27:38 <Fiora> I guess it's crackpotty but more overconfidence?
04:27:39 <kmc> but get enough of them in one place...
04:27:45 <kmc> feed them money from consumer web startups...
04:28:07 <zzo38> Well, sometimes someone will come up with somethings new, even if it is wrong, but occasionally it might happen that it can be corrected and still is some idea; usually not, though.
04:28:25 <Fiora> (I think the world needs some of those though, since 0.1% of the time they're right <.<)
04:28:41 <kmc> the article I linked discussed various non-bullshit ways to Innovate and Disrupt etc. in the field of rail
04:28:46 <Fiora> well okay maybe way less than that
04:29:04 <Bike> empirical research on how innovation happens would be nice.
04:29:33 <Bike> we probably have enough records of scientific activity in the 70s or whatever when we can reasonably clearly work through what's true etc to some extent.
04:29:44 <zzo38> See http://www.chessvariants.org/multiplayer.dir/yalta.html and the comment I wrote about a more precise variation; would you agree with my comment or not, or some do and some don't?
04:30:17 <zzo38> Bike: Do you have some such research?
04:33:01 <Bike> I don't even know what field would do that. I only see that kind of work from like, informaticians.
04:33:13 <Fiora> history of science, maybe?
04:33:14 <Bike> Which is interesting, but notvery systemic.
04:33:25 <Bike> Yeah, like Kuhn with more data, I was thinking.
04:34:15 <Bike> i'm thinking about this because i've been reading a very in-depth description of a (real) government. i haven't really seen this kind of detail in prose before, with interpretation.
04:36:18 <Bike> «And the first time Will encounters the only major character of color, played by Dev Patel, he calls him "Punjab."» kmc help.
04:37:01 <kmc> yep sorkin
04:41:35 <kmc> all the female characters in his show are introduced as "she's the best at her job!" but then they spend all day at work talking about men and screwing things up because they're thinking about men
04:42:22 <kmc> that really bugs me. when writers think they're evading stereotypes by throwing in some offhand comment, but the only behavior you actually *see* is stereotypical
04:42:27 <kmc> it's a visual medium dude
04:42:58 <Fiora> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAttribute
04:43:28 <zzo38> ENIUQ[ DUP LT +SW +GT +< ENIUQ#> ]
04:43:34 <zzo38> <ENIUQ[ DUP LT +SW +GT +< ENIUQ#> ]> ENIUQ#
05:11:28 <Bike> kmc: hrm, the bit about traffic control (in hyperloop (it's ten minutes ago in my head)) is interesting, i do hear that a lot about personal rapid transit
05:11:43 <Bike> also "gadgetbahn" is cute
05:16:05 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snFmLkOmkjE I am so glad I googled that term.
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05:17:30 <Bike> @quote cuttlefish
05:17:38 <HackEgo> 926) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it \ 977) <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank <fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue <fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water \ 1028) <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Cuttlefish-Shapeshifter-Erotica-ebook/dp/B00
05:17:46 <HackEgo> 1028) <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Cuttlefish-Shapeshifter-Erotica-ebook/dp/B0087PTMW2 i hope you know this is going to /fuck up/ my amazon recs
05:17:59 <Bike> kmc: i'm not sure you're up to date on cuttle canon here
05:18:33 <Bike> cuttle cannons sound kind of inhumane
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05:22:08 <Bike> « what is your point? I was trying to say high speed train track is very bad as of the “Berlin Wall” for both human and animals.» comments sections
05:24:00 <Gracenotes> though, so are highways, so maybe it'll be near that
05:56:59 <Bike> http://codecrap.com/content/400/
06:04:59 <Gracenotes> to my disappointment, vim shortcuts don't work in most word processors
06:06:44 <atriq> tibi iratus sum, ergo es quoque
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06:58:17 <shachaf> kmc: This tmux bug is very annoying. :-(
06:58:26 <shachaf> Once in a while something odd happens to my irssi and after a while it dies.
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07:15:16 <Jafet> Can't vim be a word processor
07:22:28 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIBqd1kxoQk
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07:39:46 <coppro> quick, very important question: do stargates have symbols on the back?
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08:01:24 <fizzie> ...it keeps happening.
08:02:48 <olsner> fungot: what keeps happening?
08:02:49 <fungot> olsner: i got just the same too. i don't know what i did... the lever on the right way to avoid that, little girl, and no one'd look twice at you!
08:03:23 <fizzie> olsner: It just called you a little girl. Are you going to take that kind of lip?
08:04:06 <zzo38> coppro: Why do you want to know? Do you need to know what kind of symbols, too?
08:05:40 <olsner> fungot: don't call me a little girl, mmkay
08:05:40 <fungot> olsner: that's as far as that.
08:06:09 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you take that kind of attitude with people, I can kill your process any time.
08:06:09 <fungot> fizzie: y, you know what's goin' on us isn't it an amazing rock!
08:07:35 <olsner> fungot: it isn't a rock, it's a rock LOBSTER
08:07:36 <fungot> olsner: now watch... that girl soon. you've been good to me.
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08:27:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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12:19:52 <AnotherTest> does the IOCCC still have a category for preprocessor stuff?
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13:07:16 <boily> good aqueöus morning!
13:09:27 -!- carado has joined.
13:10:00 <Roujo> Yes, aqueöus, quite
13:10:11 <Roujo> Excellent use of trémäs right there
13:10:20 * Roujo nods at boily approvingly
13:14:37 * boily dons his bérêt and scarf (both made from free-range organic llama wool)
13:14:58 <Roujo> Free-range wool is best llama
13:15:29 <boily> it symbolises the déchéance of modern society and its corruption under rainy weather from the remnants of an ephemeral proto-civilisation that conquered the west in anarchy and corrup...
13:17:45 <boily> I am. it's just an allergy to pompous pseudo-intellectualism expounded by mediocre modern artists.
13:24:33 <Roujo> Ah, yes. Such déchéance. It's really sad, really really.
13:27:08 <fizzie> Good audacious afternoon.
13:31:36 <fizzie> "Training data may be insufficient for selected number of components. Have: 358046, recommended: >629760 points."
13:32:20 <boily> how come ~350000 datapoints can be insufficient?
13:33:04 <boily> fizzie: on what kind of data are you training models?
13:33:32 <fizzie> Well, I mean, short-time spectral representations, of course.
13:33:37 <fizzie> Or cepstral, in this caes.
13:34:15 <fizzie> Anyway, the model in question was a GMM with 256 components, and there's quite a lot of parameters involved in 256 39x39-sized full covariance matrices.
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13:34:39 <fizzie> Did you know: the "x" axis of a cepstrum is the "quefrency".
13:34:39 <boily> can't you do a PCA?
13:34:53 <fizzie> And the analogue of filters are called "lifters".
13:35:09 <boily> that is most tsidurbing.
13:35:26 <fizzie> The whole area is full of puns like that.
13:35:49 <fizzie> I've forgotten some other good examples, sadly.
13:35:52 <metasepia> A cepstrum is the result of taking the Inverse Fourier transform of the logarithm of the estimated spectrum of a signal.
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13:36:18 <HackEgo> Carolyne: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:36:34 <fizzie> There are rahmonic peaks at particular quefrencies in the cepstrum.
13:36:42 <boily> fizzie: as in that old classic from genghis khan: “rah rah rahmonics”
13:37:07 <boily> Koen__: each time the colours change, the change of colour is different.
13:37:24 <Koen__> so deep hello Carolyne
13:38:28 <Koen__> dyd ellyot break hys y agayn?
13:38:36 <fizzie> boily: (Also what I'd *like* to do is a diagonal-covariance GMM, but the toolbox I was using didn't support that; I'm attempting to use a different implementation instead, now.)
13:39:29 <boily> Carolyne: ¿habla usted español o portugués?
13:41:13 <HackEgo> ESPAÑOL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:41:30 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
13:41:59 <Roujo> `relcome intensity
13:42:02 <HackEgo> intensity: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:42:47 <boily> first time I see HackEgo do that.
13:42:51 <Roujo> It's missing parts of the message, but those can be inferred anyway
13:43:37 <fizzie> I don't see anything missing there.
13:44:11 <Roujo> Well, it's just hard to read it when the foreground and background are the same
13:44:28 <fizzie> I didn't have any sections with same foreground and background either.
13:44:39 <AnotherTest> Roujo: I think most people use a black background
13:45:08 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130814-intensity.png -- as seen here.
13:45:13 <Koen__> black background is just there to look geek
13:46:29 <Roujo> This is what I got: http://i.imgur.com/spUhWMH.png
13:46:33 <boily> http://imgur.com/6MkUV3X -- as seen also here, but another here.
13:46:49 <fizzie> It's there to get you expelled from school for "hacking".
13:46:49 <fizzie> (I think I remember a story.)
13:47:05 <Koen__> am I the only one whose letters are actually coloured rather than just the background?
13:47:09 <AnotherTest> Koen__: not sure. I find it rather readable, also, I never bothered configuring xterm with a white background
13:47:42 <Koen__> AnotherTest: you just admitted having irc in the console
13:48:10 <Roujo> I guess it's the reversal character that messed the colors up
13:48:13 <boily> urxvt is better than xterm!
13:48:21 <AnotherTest> Koen__: well... I'll admit it... I use irssi
13:48:25 <Carolyne> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
13:48:31 <Roujo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA?
13:48:39 <fizzie> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
13:48:44 <Koen__> see? you geeked Carolyne off
13:48:49 <Roujo> AAAA AAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAA A AAA!
13:49:44 <HackEgo> chao: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:49:48 <metasepia> A center of population, commerce, and culture; a town of significant size and importance.
13:50:15 <Roujo> WHAT HAPPENED TO HIS BODY?
13:50:23 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:50:37 <fizzie> I keep getting i3 and ion3 confused.
13:50:44 <boily> that was... surrespañeal.
13:50:55 <Roujo> Superespañal, even
13:51:01 <Roujo> Superespañäl, even
13:51:34 <Roujo> You forgot to ask for her weight/locatiön!
13:51:48 <boily> sorry. I was momentarily disturbed. :(
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14:19:17 <boily> I think the consensus is that our Fine Channel has a name that starts with “es”.
14:19:58 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, are they asking questions?
14:20:57 <boily> Taneb: they do. she's /msging me with the usual CAPITAL QUESTIONS.
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14:21:41 <Taneb> I wasn't expecting some sort of Spanish inquisition
14:22:04 * boily flops Taneb with a wide brimmed red hat and a pair of aviator goggles.
14:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> so i looked up the spanish inquisition sketch on youtube
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14:33:44 <Roujo> I'm at a loss as to what it is, tough =P
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15:27:04 <metasepia> CYUL 141500Z 32005KT 15SM FEW025 BKN055 BKN120 BKN240 17/12 A2976 RMK SC2SC3AC1CI1 SLP077 DENSITY ALT 500FT
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15:40:14 <boily> Koen_: what are your approximate coördinates in Paris' XVIIIème, and your body weigh?
15:40:46 <Koen_> that's Paris XVII for you
15:40:59 <boily> woops. the «I» slipped.
15:41:04 <Koen_> and slightly above 70kg
15:41:44 <boily> statistical background noise. nothing to worry about.
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15:56:52 <Roujo> Background noise is soothing, most of the time
15:58:03 <boily> Roujo: binaural white noise ASMR FTW :)
15:58:28 <Roujo> ASMR FTW, srs bsns
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16:18:33 <Vorpal> <oerjan> @ask Vorpal you're not the Vorpal who is playing r/nommit, are you? i am assuming not but cannot resist asking. <-- what is that even?
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16:29:54 <fizzie> Sounds like a reddit nomic.
16:34:57 <Bike> el es un niño, fsvo
16:35:44 <Bike> damn straight.
16:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't want to be insulted over irc by yet another spaniard
16:43:46 <Bike> creo es posible kmc hable español poco
16:44:31 <Roujo> Es posible, pero su perro no se tiene un amor estudiante para el papel
16:45:42 <Roujo> Nada, no le quiero. Disculpame.
16:47:21 <Roujo> Es la verdad. Soy del mundo.
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16:47:40 <Roujo> Todo el mundo es del mundo
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17:02:19 <Roujo> Classy stuff right there
17:02:23 <Roujo> `relcome putero de coño
17:02:26 <HackEgo> putero: de: coño: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:04:29 <boily> Roujo: ton espagnol est pas pire! meilleur que le mien, en tout cas :p
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17:48:00 <olsner> fungot: puhutko espanjaa?
17:48:01 <fungot> olsner: hurry and see it? will you be riding this evening?
17:49:52 <fizzie> fungot: Why do you always answer questions with other questions?
17:49:53 <fungot> fizzie: me, ' don't worry about me? someone's been in fights ever since we was close.
17:50:55 <fizzie> "Warning: Failed to converge in 100 iterations for gmdistribution with 256 components" bah, it's converged enough.
17:52:29 <olsner> hmm, apparently gmail requires ActiveX if you use IE
17:53:50 <kmc> i disbelieve
17:54:11 <Bike> does activex even still exist
17:54:25 <olsner> or maybe it only requires activex if you use opera with an IE user agent?
17:54:36 <kmc> is it like an IE 6 user agent
17:56:21 <olsner> Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; X11; Linux x86_64) Opera 12.16
17:57:23 <Jafet> Is it mozilla, or is it msie, or is it opera
17:57:44 <kmc> is it snow? or is it synthcoke? only your wallet knows for sure
17:58:10 <Jafet> I have a board whose BIOS includes a web browser
17:58:19 <Jafet> I've never tried to use it
17:58:22 <olsner> apparently opera 15 calls itself "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/28.0.1500.52 Safari/537.36 OPR/15.0.1147.100"
17:59:35 <Jafet> "We're like these other guys, except we actually implement web standards correctly"
18:01:30 <olsner> it would be nice if those user agent strings could just say which browser it actually is rather than having to dump all that crap in there to make stuff work
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18:08:57 <fizzie> User agents: the worst.
18:09:54 <fizzie> I seem to be "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/28.0.1500.95 Safari/537.36". (It's Chromium.)
18:10:17 <fizzie> The "KHTML, like Gecko" thing is particularly silly.
18:12:20 <fizzie> And some Windows systems have terribly long lists in the OS column.
18:12:41 <fizzie> "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1; Trident/4.0; GTB6.5; SearchToolbar 1.2; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)" (from my access.log)
18:25:21 <Gregor> elliott: What was that perfect u-a you made?
18:26:15 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:27:16 <Gregor> `pastelogs Gecko Chrome Safari
18:27:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31757
18:28:20 <Gregor> 2010-10-27.txt:02:14:03: <elliott> self.webkit_settings.props.user_agent = 'Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit KHTML Gecko Chrome Safari'
18:30:41 <Gregor> Here's my suggestion: Mozilla/5.0 (That was a lie. More lies follow.) AppleWebKit KHTML Gecko Chrome Safari
18:37:04 <Jafet> If enough people use Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit KHTML Gecko Chrome Safari, it might become a web browser
18:39:35 <Jafet> Google's summary for whatsmyuseragent.com: “Recent User Agents Visiting this Page: You!! Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Googlebot/ 2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)”
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18:40:06 <fizzie> Jafet: The truth, revealed.
18:40:12 <fizzie> fungot: Do you hang out with Googlebot ever?
18:40:13 <fungot> fizzie: on top of that explosion!! that's more like it. where you must live!
18:40:56 <boily> someday, my life will be as grandiose as fungot's. explosions! the real manly life! the jetset!
18:40:56 <fungot> boily: it looks like we don't want to laugh... blue? i warned her, but there's nothing that can withstand the fangs of the turks...
18:42:13 <boily> I only laugh purple-and-a-half.
18:42:31 <boily> (running gag colour we have in our D&D campains.)
18:43:18 <Roujo> "A suffusion of yellow"
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19:37:51 <oerjan> @tell Vorpal i shall take that as a no, then. and yes it's a nomic played on reddit.
19:38:50 <oerjan> i kept getting confused when that player was mentioned in ##nomic :)
19:39:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, I seen other Örjans and Ørjans, and I do not confuse them with you.
19:39:55 <oerjan> OKAY I GUESS THAT'S GOOD
19:40:05 <oerjan> why do i keep getting email spam in finnish.
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19:41:21 <oerjan> Vorpal: mostly it was the small possibility that you were actually playing nomic, since so many other #esotericians are. although i didn't really think it was your style.
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19:42:17 <fizzie> oerjan: Was it someone selling you a roll-up ad stand?
19:44:18 <oerjan> fizzie: the second one contains a lot of "roll-up", yes. the first one says something about "Classic-matto".
19:45:06 <boily> hm. I have simplified chinese spam. something about friends selling me mangoes...
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19:48:31 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't get all that much Finnish spam, but I got this http://sprunge.us/MJiT today.
19:50:47 <oerjan> fizzie: looks similar, although i already deleted the spam so not sure if exact.
19:52:43 <fizzie> Now you are missing out on a great offer. It's only valid to the end of August!
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19:56:18 <metasepia> As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
19:57:23 <oerjan> metasepia: ok, just as long as you don't cackle madly
19:59:02 <boily> I should try an evil cackle underwater, just to see how it goes.
19:59:17 <boily> I'll probably end up drowning.
19:59:21 <oerjan> <atriq> tibi iratus sum, ergo es quoque <-- :)
20:00:37 <oerjan> boily: i think there should be something about that in the overlord list
20:01:13 <oerjan> oh hm, i distinctly recall it has something about avoiding evil cackles in general.
20:01:59 <boily> meh. boring. I want to cackle, while gently stroking my bot like Dr. Evil.
20:03:18 <boily> oerjan: but then, as you point out, entry #20: “Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in maniacal laughter. When so occupied, it's too easy to miss unexpected developments that a more attentive individual could adjust to accordingly.”
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20:05:07 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: mostly it was the small possibility that you were actually playing nomic, since so many other #esotericians are. although i didn't really think it was your style. <-- I'm planning to start playing some paper and pen RPG with some friends pretty soon, we are going to meet tomorrow to work out the schedules.
20:05:18 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest afaiu IOCCC categories are made up _after_ they select the winners.
20:05:28 <Vorpal> Does that count as my style?
20:05:36 <Vorpal> Probably GURPS btw, knowing the DM.
20:05:52 <oerjan> Vorpal: nope, please stay more in character hth
20:08:16 <oerjan> (also, read Darths & Droids)
20:08:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, been a while since I last read it
20:08:50 <oerjan> they just started on the fifth movie :)
20:10:06 <oerjan> not only are they designing a webcomic by committee, but it is looking more and more like they'll actually manage to finish it...
20:11:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, Given how long IWC went on I didn't doubt they would get far.
20:12:28 <oerjan> yes but IWC was just that one guy (DMM) and i think he may have changed job during it, while all of Darths & Droids are made by coworkers at the same place.
20:13:14 <oerjan> of course it all obviously depends on DMM's supernatural time management skills.
20:21:21 <boily> looks like duck duck go is case insensitive.
20:21:27 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
20:21:31 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
20:22:31 <boily> bicyclidine: I was wondering if duck'd recognize that acronym.
20:22:57 <oerjan> i am completely unknown
20:23:08 <boily> bicyclidine: the odds were against me, but I just had to try.
20:23:46 <boily> oerjan: you are Norwegian, from very up North. that's all I know about you. that, and that you weigh a tad more than myself.
20:25:14 <boily> I think you're the northernmost esoterician.
20:28:34 * boily sticks a “Hi! My name is Bike” tag onto bicyclidine
20:29:01 <oerjan> boily: there's one in the whois hth
20:31:27 <boily> the whoises say that the bikes are jameses.
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20:43:14 <HackEgo> 156) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
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20:50:07 <oerjan> fizzie: http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/011210.html (warning: dog slow today)
20:51:31 <boily> ~duck anatidaephobia
20:51:45 <boily> as per wikipedia: “the fictional fear that somewhere, somehow, a duck is watching you. From Gary Larson's The Far Side”
20:55:18 <oerjan> gary larson made up the word, of course. (it's not exactly a grammatical compound word in greek/latin)
20:55:43 <oerjan> anatophobia would have been more logical
20:55:59 <boily> yes, but less scary.
20:56:08 <oerjan> although i think that's still mixed latin/greek.
20:56:58 <boily> wiki has «Πάπια» for modern duck.
21:04:10 <fizzie> Today's weird thing: Windows 8's "recommended" resolution (bold and with a "(Recommended)" comment) for a 1920x1200 panel is 1920x1080.
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21:29:57 <fizzie> Hmp. I seem to be unable to set up VirtualBox's raw disk access in this thing.
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21:36:10 <fizzie> (VBoxManage just does the "has stopped working" thing.)
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21:55:21 <fizzie> (I was hoping to set up my usual "Linux on VirtualBox providing (read) access to RAID/LVM2/ext4 partitions" setup, because the existing tools that claim to do LVM2 (explore2fs, ext2read) seem really kinda iffy.)
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22:07:28 <zzo38> Someone making "EMUya" mentioned that OUYA output is always HDCP, which among other things, causes the picture to lag too much. Do you know if there is a way to remove HDCP (even though some software might fail), or to remove HDMI altogether?
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22:23:45 <HackEgo> gerardo1: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
22:24:21 <tswett> oerjan: I would expect that command to be called `bienvenir, wouldn't you? Since the thing it does is "to welcome", not "having been welcomed".
22:24:36 <HackEgo> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:24:53 <oerjan> tswett: um if so it should be the imperative, not infinitive
22:25:15 <tswett> oerjan: in my experience, Spanish UI elements are usually marked with the infinitive.
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22:27:02 <tswett> Pues, ¿who would have thought that el estudio de gramarios context-free would involve so much complex analysis?
22:27:13 <tswett> Hablo español un poco.
22:28:08 <tswett> Sí tengo Facebook, pero no me gusta friendear a personas que no conozco, y tengo 20 años.
22:32:01 <tswett> Pues, bienvenido. Nuestra canal es tu canal.
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22:33:37 <gerardo1> yo estoy metido por la canaima
22:35:22 <tswett> Uhh, ¿qué es una canaima?
22:36:01 <Bike> you got a problem with spanish compadre
22:36:33 <tswett> Ahora estoy leyendo algo sobre matemáticas.
22:37:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: What is with the Spanish is that tswett has inexplicably decided to have a chat with what amounts to a spammer. (/msging random people in the channel definitely constitutes spam in my book)
22:37:56 <tswett> Matemáticas. ^_^ Pienso en hacerme actuario.
22:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> of people who clearly know english but insist on speaking spanish, and mostly just seem to engender mutual confusion
22:39:33 <elliott> not convinced gerardo1 knows English here
22:39:56 <kmc> yeah I don't know where you're getting "knows english"
22:40:13 <Bike> well you can tell, because of the way they have communicated exclusively in spanish.
22:40:26 <tswett> Mm, no sé describirlo en español, pero hay un articulo de Wikipedia sobre eso: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuar%C3%ADa
22:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well OK maybe not gerardo, but past spaniards have replied to stuff people have said in english
22:41:15 <Bike> why do you keep calling them spaniards
22:41:59 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: hispanophones?
22:42:17 <tswett> Is "hispanophone" even a word?
22:42:18 <Bike> wouldn't that mean someone who likes spanglish
22:42:22 <tswett> Yes, it is. In French.
22:42:30 <Bike> tswett: seems like the obvious translation of hispanohiblante
22:42:37 <Bike> trans... something
22:42:42 <tswett> Ah, Wiktionary says that the English is "Hispanophone", not "hispanophone".
22:42:42 <Bike> spanish-speaker
22:43:26 <gerardo1> o te entiendo muy bien te estoy respondiendo por el traductor
22:43:44 <tswett> Me parece interesante que la mayoría del mundo hispanohablante está fuera de España...
22:44:21 <gerardo1> vuelvo en un momento ok no te vallas
22:45:22 <tswett> Debemos traducir el channel topic en español.
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23:01:49 <Bike> hey can someone explain type synonyms to me
23:02:11 <tswett> A type synonym declaration gives a new name to a type.
23:02:23 <tswett> The new name and the old name are then interchangeable.
23:03:07 <Bike> so if i define foo to be a synonym for [Int], and then call it on an [Int] with no reference to foo or anything, that works?
23:03:30 <tswett> Are we talking about Haskell?
23:03:55 <tswett> Well, "foo" wouldn't be a valid type synonym, since it doesn't begin with an uppercase letter.
23:04:13 <tswett> And I don't know what you mean by "call it on an [Int]". Type synonyms aren't functions; what would it mean to call one?
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23:04:24 <Bike> er, i missed some words.
23:04:33 <Bike> defined a function :: foo -> whatever.
23:05:00 <tswett> That's correct. Foo and [Int] are the same thing, so if the function expects a Foo, you can give it a [Int].
23:08:53 <tswett> Tengo ir en un momento.
23:09:01 <Koen_> wow I just found a board game that uses a turing tarpit instead of the usual action points
23:09:30 <gerardo1> quieres mi facebook para que me veas
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23:17:08 <zzo38> Koen_: What game is that? How does it work?
23:17:26 <Koen_> basically there are eight possible actions
23:17:40 <Koen_> and you've got a meeple turning around a wheel of the eight possible actions
23:17:54 <Koen_> if you want to turn faster you have to pay
23:18:04 <oerjan> don't tell me it's a bf derivative twnh
23:18:33 <Koen_> no, it's a CONQUEST THE FUCKING MEDITERRANEAN SEA derivative
23:20:55 <Koen_> possible actions include collecting gold, collecting iron, collecting marble, and hitting your opponent IN HIS FACE
23:22:42 <zzo38> But that is only four possibilities
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23:26:25 <Koen_> that's what I said 'include'
23:28:50 <zzo38> But what is the other four?
23:29:53 <Koen_> build a temple - hit your opponent in the face (again) - build militia - prepare militia to be built in the future
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00:21:34 -!- kmc has set topic: Existentially unforgeable under adaptive chosen-message attacks | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
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01:04:22 <quintopia> how common is the use of gas for heating and cooking in the scan-the-navy-ahs?
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01:08:31 <Jafet> I doubt you will get more than a definnitive answer here.
01:09:46 <oerjan> for households in norway, i think almost nonexistent.
01:10:05 <oerjan> electricity used to be omnipresent for both.
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01:11:02 <oerjan> but maybe it's changed recently for environmental reasons, e.g. my new apartment has water-based heating.
01:11:57 <oerjan> ok it's somewhat fashionable for barbecues, at least :P
01:12:27 <oerjan> that's a recent development.
01:13:08 <oerjan> also for camping and summer houses it may be more common.
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01:18:03 <kmc> i love that you can buy natural gas powered air conditioners
01:18:10 <kmc> it's like alchemy. using fire to make stuff cold
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03:00:27 <shachaf> ion: It means I can run FTL again!
03:12:48 <tswett> oerjan: electricity for heating? ¿qué el fuck
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03:25:28 <oerjan> tswett: norway's electricity is something like 90% hydropower.
03:26:18 <oerjan> before we found the oil, it used to be called our "white gold"
03:28:03 <oerjan> well still does, i guess
03:40:04 <zzo38> Are there any better MUD systems than the one that I was playing before and quit because of the lack of difficult mode and so on?
04:24:10 <zzo38> Why can't I find a MUD?
04:24:33 <comex> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1kcvix/50_bytes_of_code_that_took_4gb_to_compile/cbo2kby
04:26:23 <elliott> "Turing complete in practice" :(
04:26:34 <comex> elliott: i was wondering if there is a more precise term.
04:26:41 <comex> i gave a reasonably precise definition
04:29:21 <comex> uh... no, not a finite state machine. the idea is to be able to compute an arbitrary function that uses a large amount of memory
04:29:46 <comex> (you *can* simulate a FSM for a fixed number of steps without difficulty)
04:30:28 <Bike> oh hey, it's not template garbage
04:30:48 <comex> pretty much is, actually
04:36:49 <comex> (and you can simulate an algorithm that uses a small amount of memory, but may be very difficult to analyze, such as an cryptographic hash, again without difficulty)
04:49:36 <Gracenotes> it's guaranteed to repeat a state if it runs for long enough
04:59:59 <Gracenotes> so it is possible to detect if something will halt
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06:13:00 <Jafet> “reasonable Turing-complete language, such as Brainfuck”
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06:48:10 <Gracenotes> via Wikipedia: The 1954 edition of the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians notoriously dismissed Rachmaninoff's music as "monotonous in texture ... consist[ing] mainly of artificial and gushing tunes" and predicted that his popular success was "not likely to last". To this, Harold C. Schonberg, in his Lives of the Great Composers, responded, "It is one of the most outrageously snobbish and even stupid statements ever to be found in a work that is s
06:48:49 <Gracenotes> that may have gotten its tail cut off. any case.
07:10:45 <Jafet> Most popular music consists of artificial and gushing tunes.
07:10:58 <Jafet> Rachmaninov was merely pragmatic.
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07:27:37 <Gracenotes> maybe he wasn't able to take the time to work out a genuine tune because he was Russian
07:28:02 <Gracenotes> (Oh, printing press, how you've ruined puns.)
07:33:47 <oklopol> comex: are you trying to ask, in your post, whether there is a function f from turing maching programs to c++ template programs such that |f(w)|/|w| is bounded and w and f(w) are somehow equivalent as programs? (i did not understand any of it, just guessing)
07:36:14 <oklopol> "without taking an exponential amount of space to describe the function compared to the normal representation (i.e. you can't just list every possible input,output pair)"
07:37:01 <oklopol> what's the normal representation
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07:39:16 <Taneb> I've got a place at the University of York!
07:39:38 <oklopol> :T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U
07:40:12 <Taneb> shachaf, it's like Old Old New York
07:40:33 <shachaf> as far as yorks are concerned, the newer the better imo
07:40:42 <shachaf> even the new one is getting kind of old
07:41:13 <shachaf> Taneb: are you going to go studentize there
07:41:29 <Taneb> I am going to studentize maths and computer science
07:42:07 <kmc> congrats Taneb
07:42:22 <kmc> congratsneb
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07:56:55 <Jafet> oklopol: what is the complexity class of lambda calculus terms where you can only evaluate each term to a depth of 17 (yes this is still C++)
07:59:41 <oklopol> oh is he talking about the recursion limit
08:00:56 <oklopol> i did not quite catch the connection between the first and the second paragraph
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08:12:24 <Taneb> So I for the first time will receive Computer Science education in an official capacity in October
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08:18:36 <oklopol> i might not take another math course like _ever_ :(
08:19:10 <Taneb> oklopol, aren't you like really old like 28 or something
08:33:01 <FreeFull> Taneb: Why does oklopol secretly love you?
08:33:17 <Taneb> FreeFull, he secretly loves me!?
08:33:36 <FreeFull> 08:39:38 < oklopol> :T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U
08:33:56 <Taneb> Well, it must be a secret
08:34:17 <shachaf> Maybe because he doesn't reveal other people's secrets.
08:34:39 <FreeFull> Not a very big secret when it's posted in the wide open
08:35:34 <Taneb> And FreeFull that's just a sequence of silly faces
08:36:52 <FreeFull> > filter (\x -> x == ':' || x == ' ') ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:36:53 <lambdabot> ": : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :"
08:37:04 <FreeFull> > filter (\x -> x /= ':' || x /= ' ') ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:37:06 <lambdabot> ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:37:15 <FreeFull> > filter (\x -> x /= ':' && x /= ' ') ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:38:29 <shachaf> That decryption function looks kind of contrived.
08:38:46 <shachaf> You could make any message appear in that text with a sufficiently complicated decryption function.
08:38:49 <Taneb> But he's in the far away land of far away
08:39:05 <Taneb> And shachaf raises a very good point
08:39:10 <shachaf> > filter (\_ -> "ILOVEMONOIDSTHEYARESOEASY") ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:39:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Bool'
08:39:20 <shachaf> > (\_ -> "ILOVEMONOIDSTHEYARESOEASY") ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:39:38 <Taneb> I'd say that that decryption function is much simpler
08:40:01 <shachaf> > map length ["filter (\\x -> x /= ':' && x /= ' ')", "(\\_ -> \"ILOVEMONOIDSTHEYARESOEASY\")"]
08:41:07 <FreeFull> Well, we both have useless spaces
08:42:39 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not sure what "tane bisec retlyl ovey ou" even means.
08:42:55 <shachaf> Looks like gibberish to me.
08:43:01 <shachaf> Taneb: Wouldn't you agree?
08:43:02 <Taneb> shachaf, isn't "ovey" an exclamation associated with the Yiddish community?
08:43:35 <Taneb> And "bisec" could be short for "bisection"
08:43:45 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules)
08:44:00 <Taneb> Maybe it's "tan e" rather than "tane"
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08:49:03 <FreeFull> shachaf: Well, the decoded message is missing its spaces
08:49:28 <FreeFull> I interpreted it as "TANEB I SECRETLY LOVE YOU" but of course that doesn't mean that's where the spaces actually go
08:51:00 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe "TANEBISECRETLYLOVEYOU" is one word in one of those languages with long words.
08:51:05 <shachaf> Like Finnish or Hexhammish.
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08:58:32 <FreeFull> Time for reboot for new kernel for sparta
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09:28:21 <FreeFull> I think 1/2 should be called cotwo
09:28:46 <FreeFull> Or rather the multiplicative cotwo
09:28:58 <FreeFull> To distinguish from -2, which is the additive cotwo
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10:06:00 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
10:06:26 <Taneb> Did you know that Hexham is halfway between York and Edinburgh?
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12:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/14/john-cleese-attack-british-press
12:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it makes it sound like john cleese's troops are battering down the gates of the daily mail
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13:12:51 <boily> my fingers tend to accumulate random ink stains from unknown sources. I fear I'm a sleep-writer...
13:15:29 <zzo38> I calculated the probability of rolling d4,d6,d8,d10,d12,d20 and all coming up the same number (which will have to be 1 to 4). At least, I think I did; maybe I made a mistake.
13:18:06 <zzo38> boily: What do you sleep-write?
13:18:56 <boily> zzo38: no idea. haven't found my Nebulous Nocturnal Notepad yet. probably some weird stuff à la Ulysses.
13:19:15 <boily> do you know of a cheap IR camera that I could rig to my box?
13:20:22 <zzo38> No, I don't know about that.
13:20:54 <boily> something USB, or better wireless. then I could film mys... oh... very, very bad idea.
13:21:17 <zzo38> Well, Wii remotes have a IR camera although they can only track positions and not transmit a picture.
13:21:31 <boily> I'm sure I'm going to end up dead after a few weeks, like in Paranormal Activity.
13:21:56 <zzo38> boily: Then you must try to write a report of it. Unfortunely it is difficult if you are dead.
13:22:12 <boily> “better random moonlit modern musings than being stalked by an invisible demon”, says my mom.
13:22:28 <boily> or, I wonder if I could xkcdise it and sleep with a keyboard.
13:22:48 <zzo38> You could try. I don't know how well it would work.
13:24:38 <boily> I have a bluetooth keyboard. I'll keep you informed.
13:24:50 <zzo38> OK. Does it have enough battery power?
13:25:18 <zzo38> Perhaps disable the functions keys and so on for that kind of experiment.
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13:27:29 <boily> it was hong kongly bought, and of good battery quality.
13:28:06 <zzo38> OK, if the battery is good, then that will work.
13:28:54 <zzo38> If you ever type anything about Uselessness RPG 1, tell me we can add it into that wiki! (regardless whether you sleep or wake up while typing it)
13:32:43 <boily> I seem to have misplaced the link to your RPG. care to provide it to me again?
13:35:11 <zzo38> Well, here it is: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
13:38:18 <zzo38> Yuggo is a currency from CthulhuMUD. Zorkmid is a currency from Zork, and also used in some chess variants. Yen is Japanese currency.
13:38:46 <zzo38> (Have you seen such chess variants?)
13:39:23 <boily> I knew about nethack and zorkmids, but chess variants?
13:39:40 <boily> yen is yen is yen. it goes with calpis and pocari sweat and ramune.
13:40:32 <zzo38> Yes, even in some chess variants, mention zorkmids. That isn't important for the purpose of this game, though; I just used three currencies found elsewhere, and since exchange rates vary they don't even need to be matching anything else.
13:43:09 <boily> the log in as a google account is a little bit buggy, but seems to work. there's a PHP error when you click on the google link, then it says “You are logged in as https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=[RANDOM STUFF]”.
13:43:54 <zzo38> boily: Tell Gregor; that isn't my problem.
13:44:12 <zzo38> It is either Gregor or Google who has done something wrong; probably Google.
13:44:19 <boily> Gregor: what I zzo38ly said ↑
13:47:29 <zzo38> (Specifically, yuggo was the currency used in most shops and vending machines in Pluto I have seen in that game; the exceptions are the bank and Dr.Tkikt which you must both pay for services in copper coins instead; the bank will exchange them automatically though so it doesn't matter. Most of things I have seen about zorkmid are about chess variants, in fact!!)
13:48:07 <zzo38> (Many games might have the different currency being copper, silver, gold; I want to make the game different, so instead I have yen, yuggo, zorkmid. Maybe "yen" might be changed just because it starts with "y".)
13:48:38 <zzo38> (It is true; if I change it, that is the only reason.)
13:48:46 <boily> about that y point, I added an annotation.
13:49:08 <boily> (my wiki editing skills are poor, so the format may not be standard compliant, fsvo standard)
13:49:49 <boily> fungot: do you have any y points?
13:49:50 <fungot> boily: will you and hurried here. gogah... make... .....don't ever make marlene...
13:52:38 <zzo38> boily: Good point; I won't use this in Z-machine though (another problem is the way Unicode deals with font width)
13:58:58 <boily> 'tis sad. gargoyle seems to have stopped development.
13:59:19 <zzo38> boily: What is that?
13:59:38 <boily> http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/
14:00:21 <boily> I remember losing a few hours of my life trying to find a lost pig.
14:00:34 <zzo38> O, I have seen that
14:00:55 <zzo38> There are many Z-machine interpreters, but most of them seem very defective.
14:02:12 <zzo38> I have written two Z-machine programs, and I have tested many interpreters; only Aimfiz and Infocom's interpreter run them correctly.
14:03:51 <zzo38> A version of Gargoyle based on Aimfiz instead of Frotz might work.
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14:16:06 <boily> meanwhile, I am beginning to grasp the details of OpenERP. I am scared.
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15:16:22 <fizzie> boily: AIUI, a lot of the regular cheapo webcams register a reasonable amount of IR, so you could pick one of those and then you'd just need some IR illumination.
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15:28:56 <FreeFull> They make infrared look pink though
15:35:37 <fizzie> I think that's okay if you just want to see where you keep your hidden night-journal.
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16:51:01 <fizzie> Mhm. How come dark grey is entirely black in a screen session in PuTTY?
16:51:40 <fizzie> Oh, there's a "indicate bolded text by..." setting.
16:52:03 <fizzie> Managed to somehow miss that every time.
16:54:28 <fizzie> Hmp. In VirtualBox the raw disk access stuff worked not at all; in VMware Player, I get a few dozen "The operation on file "\\.\PhysicalDrive3" failed." messages at boot time and when anything sufficiently special happens, but if I just keep saying "continue" everything works.
16:56:35 <fizzie> (Except for a lot of errors in dmesg.)
16:56:51 <fizzie> "failed command: WRITE DMA".
16:57:08 <fizzie> Maybe if I configured it to use something different.
17:10:12 <fizzie> I told VMware to use it in the "individual partitions" mode, and it just broke down.
17:10:38 <fizzie> Now it just shows the main menu dialog, and trying to close it gives a "The virtual machine is busy." error.
17:16:23 -!- yorick has joined.
17:17:58 <fizzie> Maybe it has issues with partitions larger than 2T, because the individual-partitions select-o-tron just says "2 TB" as the capacity.
17:29:24 <boily> fizzie: back from lunch. I'll IRise myself in a non horror movie manner.
17:29:54 <Roujo> My lunch is sausages
17:30:01 <Roujo> Cheese and brocoli sausages
17:30:11 <Roujo> "You learn something every day"
17:30:24 <olsner> fungot: do you eat cheese and broccoli?
17:30:24 <fungot> olsner: better send that soldier something.
17:31:06 <boily> my lunch was a large all-dressed phở.
17:31:22 <boily> Roujo: "you're talking like fizzie."
17:31:58 <fizzie> The weirdest. The front headphone jack is noisy in Windows only. And not all the time, just occasionally.
17:32:09 <fizzie> I guess it could be some interference from the GPU or something.
17:34:15 <Roujo> Interference, defense, number 99, first down
17:36:25 <boily> on one hand, I am reading an article about fermented shrimp paste, otoh Roujo is doing eldritch incantations, and on the not quite fourth hand I'm utterly puzzled.
17:36:48 <Roujo> The Otter puzzle is pretty damn ahrd
17:36:57 <Roujo> That's like hard-mode hard
17:37:09 <Roujo> Also, I can't spell
17:37:28 <boily> Roujo: you're francophone like me. of course you can't spell. :p
17:38:10 <Roujo> Just, not actual spells
17:44:23 <boily> fungot: your opinion on words?
17:44:23 <fungot> boily: cloud... don't... the planet? ho ho hoooo. good luck. please let me. my journey ends here. the two of you.
17:44:45 <boily> «ho ho hoooo. good luck.» properly ominous, imho.
17:45:04 <fizzie> fungot: What's this about your journey ending?
17:45:04 <fungot> fizzie: but what are you? you keep wandering around...
17:45:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: theme: not found
17:45:14 <fizzie> Roujo: Wrong prefix *and* command. :p
17:45:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:45:39 <fizzie> It's indicated by that *.
17:46:03 * boily looks at Roujo and offers him a fungot manual, 4th edition
17:46:04 <fungot> boily: aerith......? i just can't seem to lose weight. hmm, aerith. long time.
17:46:17 <Roujo> We're on 4th already?
17:46:59 <boily> manuals always have a ludicrous edition number, in the Grand Conspiracy of Taking Students' Money for Stupid Reasons.
17:47:11 <boily> s/in/according to/
17:48:13 <fizzie> fungot: What's new in the 4th edition?
17:48:14 <fungot> fizzie: unfortunately, this trip was expensive. and a man. he was a vibrant woman. hadn't changed at all. but, if you're thinkin' you yet!
17:49:19 <boily> “...expensive” “hadn't changed at all”
17:49:48 <Roujo> I pretty much only got "he was a vibrant woman"
17:51:25 <olsner> fungot: but did you have *fun* on your trip?
17:51:26 <fungot> olsner: putting you on my back till the end of this gym!
17:53:05 <Roujo> fungot: saying sweet lines since whenever he started doing it
17:53:05 <fungot> Roujo: looks like you've seen this already......? so why's it impossible for us to live here i'd change things around ' n' me sober.
17:53:15 <fungot> Roujo: is that man over there!
17:53:27 <Roujo> fungot: What about him?
17:53:27 <fungot> Roujo: then, is now...... must've been a while back, don't make me laugh....
17:53:41 <Roujo> fungot: I'd rather not. You remember what happened last time, right?
17:53:42 <fungot> Roujo: it'll be all right, with my life.
17:54:03 <Roujo> fungot: That's something nice to have, that certainty. I wish I could say the same.
17:54:39 <Roujo> fungo: Are you still there?
17:55:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:55:14 <boily> fungot: are you snubbing Roujo?
17:55:15 <fungot> boily: hey! hey, that's fine.
17:55:36 <HackEgo> denial: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:55:41 <boily> Roujo: not the first time a meatbag receives abuse from a bot :p
17:56:00 <Roujo> Probably not the last, either
17:56:04 <Roujo> I wish I was a chatbot
17:56:04 <HackEgo> 952) * fungot has joined #esoteric <boily> woohoo! the one and only fungot is back! <fungot> boily: damn your mother! <boily> ok. never saw that one coming.
17:56:16 <Roujo> Imagine the possibilities
17:56:21 <Roujo> I could beat the Turing test
17:56:23 <Roujo> Well, I think I could
17:56:28 <Roujo> I never really tried
17:56:37 <boily> you could auto-meta-turing yourself.
17:56:48 <boily> (meanwhile, that thing exists: https://github.com/rvantonder/pentaquine)
18:00:17 <boily> random question of the day: anybody here who has a urbanspoon account?
18:01:29 <Roujo> I stay away from city utensils, twvm
18:01:37 <Roujo> I stay away from 'em
18:03:43 <boily> I'm on a quest to visit all the vietnamese restaurants on the island, and I was wondering what defines a good phở around the world.
18:04:07 -!- sacje has joined.
18:06:22 <boily> so far, 24% of my logged restaurants offer vietnamese cuisine, and I've been to 83 in Montréal, 10 in Québec and 4 in Ottawa.
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18:27:54 <Taneb> I'm doing unusually well in this run of Brogue
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18:29:10 <boily> Taneb: roguespeed to you!
18:29:29 <Taneb> I've got an ally naga, ogre, and imp
18:29:49 <Taneb> Okay, I've lost the imp
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18:31:18 <Taneb> And I'm on floor 20
18:31:27 <boily> how many floors in brogue?
18:31:54 <mnoqy> the amulet is on floor 26
18:32:03 <mnoqy> but i think it goes down to 100 if you really want to
18:32:22 <mnoqy> it definitely goes deeper than 26
18:32:35 <Taneb> I thought it only went to 52?
18:32:35 <mnoqy> and you can collect "lumenstones" for bonus score
18:32:40 <mnoqy> oh maybe it goes to 52
18:32:44 <mnoqy> I'm bad with remembering numbers
18:33:56 <mnoqy> ...apparently it goes to 40??
18:34:07 <mnoqy> #define AMULET_LEVEL 26 // how deep before the amulet appears
18:34:10 <mnoqy> #define DEEPEST_LEVEL 40 // how deep the universe goes
18:34:46 <kmc> boily: are you a phở fiend
18:36:21 <Taneb> Killed by a cloud of caustic gas on level 21
18:36:41 <mnoqy> elliott: i just quoted the source
18:36:51 <boily> kmc: I am the vietnamese restaurant reference among my colleagues, friends and family. I peruse blogs and my instincts to seek the perfect montrealese phở.
18:37:19 <kmc> is montréal known for its phở?
18:37:28 <mnoqy> from the changelog: The deepest dungeon depth is now 40 instead of 100, and it contains a reward for players skillful and insane enough to reach it.
18:37:52 * kmc contemplates setting up his Compose key to type tiếng Việt diacritics
18:38:53 <boily> kmc: probably. there are many, many places all over the city that serve it.
18:39:36 <boily> my compose key was remapped to 半角／全角, and I just tweaked xmodmap to get everything defined by X on my dead keys.
18:42:01 <fizzie> TIL: a fully stocked bookshelf is kind of heavy.
18:43:18 <olsner> did it fall on you? I hear that can kill people
18:45:43 <olsner> (I hope it didn't kill you!)
18:46:25 <boily> oh right. my compose is ひらがな／カタカナ.
18:46:54 <boily> kmc: http://pastebin.ca/2432345
18:47:14 <kmc> do you type a lot of japanese boily?
18:47:20 <kmc> I need to figure out how to anchor my bookshelves to the wall
18:47:23 <kmc> earthquake zone, y'know
18:47:36 <boily> kmc: yes. I have UIM bound to Ctrl-Space.
18:47:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: Existentially unforgiveable under adaptive chosen-message attacks | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
18:48:25 <boily> I firmly believe the /topic makes sense in some parallel universe.
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19:03:24 <olsner> boily: now that's just absurd
19:03:46 <olsner> maybe it makes sense in the orthogonal universe(s)
19:04:37 <boily> olsner: my belief are reasonable, up to iso-absurdity.
19:06:45 <boily> only in computer programming you can exclaim “It works! I get the correct error!” and be proud of your work.
19:06:56 <Bike> what about approximation theory
19:08:05 <boily> ~duck approximation theory
19:08:05 <metasepia> In mathematics, approximation theory is concerned with how functions can best be approximated with simpler functions, and with quantitatively characterizing the errors introduced thereby.
19:08:45 <boily> well, I guess I was close enough, and within an acceptable error margin.
19:09:07 <boily> Bike: I deny the existence of statistics, based on personal experience.
19:09:11 <olsner> for e.g. compilers, getting the right error is a really important part of what it does
19:10:04 <boily> there's this complete memory blank in my head when I try to recall my statistics classes. I think it was caused by a nerve gas deployed by the dean to keep us students in track and coöperative.
19:11:03 <olsner> hint: a more efficient way to not remember statistics is to not learn it in the first place
19:12:34 <kmc> rustc has 753 "this should fail to compile with error X" test cases
19:13:10 <kmc> patches welcome
19:13:32 <olsner> yeah, I read the rust tutorial yesterday, maybe I should start patching the compiler now
19:14:04 <kmc> that's about how it goes yeah
19:18:29 <fizzie> olsner: No, I just needed to move it move it, in order to add a cable to the thing-where-cables-go-in.
19:18:57 <fizzie> It just plain didn't "budge", though, before first emptying half of the books.
19:19:45 <boily> `? thing-where-cables-go-in
19:19:46 <HackEgo> thing-where-cables-go-in? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:20:35 <olsner> boily: those things are commonplace in pre-wireless ("troglodyte") environments
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19:21:44 <boily> olsner: my apartment is double-trogloditty, then. I have two powerbars, each with a mess of cables, and various electronic apparatuses, each with their own messes.
19:22:33 <boily> well, two and a half. there's an extension cord in my kitchen because I lack well-placed outlets, and have none in my bathroom.
19:22:56 * boily recalls the weeks I had to shave without a mirror... it was a life experience
19:24:53 <fizzie> Personally I think I'd rather go with the cable than with some sort of wifi audio streaming apparatus, those things are always so stupef.
19:25:38 <boily> all my audio is cabled, with a shiny amp and two mysterious wooden boxes inherited from my dad.
19:27:18 <fizzie> Heh, that's very similar. I have a karman/hard-on (or w/e) amp and two "Jamo Power 130S"es that date probably to the 1970s, inherited from my father.
19:28:06 <olsner> hmm... if the wifi router is connected by cable, does that make the so-called "wireless" non-wireless?
19:28:33 <fizzie> http://images3.okr.ro/auctions.v3/700_700/2011/11/22/1/4/66480192997240637290843-5658522-700_700.jpg something very much like these.
19:28:43 <fizzie> (I don't know the difference between the 130T and the 130S.)
19:28:59 <fizzie> (Well, I mean, in more detail than "the last letter".)
19:29:00 <boily> fizzie: cambridge audio wired to JCLes from the '70s.
19:29:18 <olsner> what are those hanging white flanges in the upper left for?
19:29:30 <fizzie> olsner: Ask an audio engineer, I think.
19:30:01 <fizzie> boily: The fabric-y cover in ours is much more cat-demolished than what's in the picture, however.
19:31:10 <boily> ah, cats and music... the eternal war and grievances.
19:32:18 <boily> fizzie: I'm on a http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/media/351a-front-black-1353684537.jpg or very similar, http://www.gallagher.com/photos/stereo/jbl_3.jpg still very similar.
19:33:24 <fizzie> boily: Well, for completeness... http://www.avx.hu/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2011/post-2852-080826500%201324539191.jpg a bit less shiny.
19:33:52 <fizzie> (I don't use any of the video or surroundy features of it.)
19:34:35 <Taneb> You know what I find weird?
19:35:13 <Taneb> Something about Daft Punk sounding French even with the voice modulation and whatnot
19:35:54 <olsner> I suspect that's something you imagine based on knowing that they are french
19:35:59 <boily> fizzie: I find karman/hardons' form factor a little too big, imo.
19:36:19 <nooodl> french accents are pretty noticable
19:36:28 <boily> nooodl: you don't say.
19:36:46 <Bike> doesn't the new album have a monologue by a french guitarist. or maybe he's spanish. help i don't know anything
19:37:24 <nooodl> (listens to an interview) yeah they sound very french here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaPil2JlXhU hth
19:37:50 <elliott> Bike: do you mean Giorgio Moroder? he's a disco guy. maybe he plays guitar too??
19:38:08 <elliott> (I haven't heard the album)
19:38:11 <Bike> i thought the monologue was about guitarism
19:38:29 <olsner> the moroder is not one of the daft punk guys though?
19:38:30 <elliott> (one of the three people in the universe who thought Human After All was pretty good though)
19:43:17 <boily> across universes, the median number of people who appreciate Human After All to its full extent is 4⅝.
19:44:35 <Taneb> Well, even if it just me, it's still a bit weird
19:47:01 <olsner> I find that singing masks most of people's accents, and even swedish artists can sound english when singing
19:52:22 <boily> `learn phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
19:57:49 <tswett> Hmm. So earlier, I may have said that in a linear type system, every monad is (essentially) equivalent to a state monad.
19:57:59 <olsner> boily: is pho made from ~duck?
19:58:42 <tswett> Turns out, though, that a linear type system doesn't appear to support the list monad, at least not by the obvious meaning of the word "monad".
19:58:47 <boily> olsner: the regular version is phở bò (beef), but you can also get gà (chicken).
19:59:07 <tswett> Like, you can't have [Int] -> (Int -> [Char]) -> [Char], because you could have any number of Ints, and yet the second argument must be called exactly once.
20:00:08 <boily> olsner: there is also a duck soup called bún măng vịt.
20:03:20 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:04:01 <ion> The Kids' Guide to the Internet http://youtu.be/A81IwlDeV6c
20:04:54 -!- carado has joined.
20:05:23 <boily> ion: oh the fungotity...
20:05:24 <fungot> boily: meteor is coming, and then that's okay. we'll see if you don't even have any money.
20:05:45 <boily> Roujo: est-ce que tu connais le Douteux? http://douteux.org/
20:05:46 <tswett> How threatening. It's like...
20:06:24 <tswett> You owe us a bunch of money. There's a meteor coming and it's going to kill you, but we don't care. In fact, after it kills you we're going to go over to your house and see what money's in it.
20:09:37 <fizzie> boily: It is kind of bulky, that's for sure. And it's mostly empty space.
20:14:36 -!- ^v has joined.
20:16:28 <^v> good obscure language to compile into lua?
20:16:31 <HackEgo> ^v: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:16:32 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:17:47 <boily> ^v: there is http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters. no lua in it, but it's an interesting starting point.
20:19:52 <^v> i remember what i was trying to do a couple years ago
20:20:02 <^v> i was making a BF inturpreter in logisim
20:20:19 <tswett> "checking whether strstr works in linear time... no"
20:20:25 <tswett> Wow, autoconf can determine asymptotic complexity.
20:21:14 <Fiora> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=5514 huh, wow
20:24:08 <kmc> tswett: I assume it uses KLEE
20:24:26 <^v> freenode actually crashed my http server
20:25:24 <tswett> I'd think it would just try a bunch of them and see how linear the result is.
20:25:40 <tswett> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLEE hth
20:26:09 <metasepia> Swiss artist who combined his expert use of line and color and his theories of abstract art to produce works of whimsy and innocence.
20:26:23 <tswett> Also: 5 + 1 = 2 * 3 and 5 * 1 = 2 + 3.
20:27:51 <shachaf> tswett: Make a version of strstr that detects whether it's being given worst-case input.
20:29:15 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
20:29:33 <tswett> The naive linear algorithm, which doesn't work, is to step through the haystack, and keep a counter of the number of characters of the needle that have matched. If you encounter a mismatch, reset it to zero.
20:31:11 <tswett> The naive way of fixing that, which makes the algorithm quadratic, is to keep multiple counters, one for each possible starting point of the match.
20:31:35 <^v> i sould make a esoteric language, where you will have to brute force CRC in order to compile it
20:32:00 <tswett> I think the worst case for that algorithm may be finding e.g. "aaaa" in "aaaaaaaa".
20:33:06 <boily> ^v: à la Malbolge :D
20:33:21 <boily> tswett: or, as a colombian would say, AAAAAAAAAAA.
20:33:22 <tswett> Malbolge is pretty easy to... well, interpret, isn't it?
20:33:39 <^v> yea like malboge
20:35:07 <boily> we should poisson the hispanophones that randomly join this channel in order to predict when will the next one appear.
20:36:38 <Taneb> Reading the t's and c's for student loads...
20:41:05 <tswett> I want to try to think of another Turing tarpit...
20:41:39 <kmc> what's a loads
20:41:56 <Taneb> It's how much luggage I'll be able to carry as a student
20:42:03 <tswett> How about this. Memory consists of a bunch of 32-bit words. The instruction pointer points to a pair of words.
20:43:18 <^v> sould i use FCS32 instead of CRC32?
20:43:22 <Taneb> kmc, yes, I did mean loans
20:43:30 <^v> CRC is too easy to crack
20:44:23 <olsner> tswett: so far this is sounding pretty normal
20:44:48 <boily> Taneb: going to university?
20:44:53 <Taneb> Why is life this scary
20:44:57 <tswett> Each execution step consists of multiplying the two words together, setting the second word to the result, and moving right if the result was greater than 991197253, and left otherwise.
20:45:08 <boily> tswett: this sounds like a segment/address pair on an x86 architecture...
20:45:17 <boily> or, as you said, probably not.
20:45:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
20:47:11 <boily> Taneb: disproportionate retaliation from former students who had to endure a little bit less scariness than what you're going to suffer, culminating in an intergenerational serial escalation of standardised, civilised terror.
20:48:20 <Taneb> It's all "If you're Welsh and applying before September 2012... If you're Welsh and applying after September 2012... If you are studying a part-time course..." aaah
20:50:28 <Taneb> "You will need to give employers either a P45 form or a P46 form."
20:50:32 <olsner> what happens if you're welsh and apply during september 2012?
20:50:54 <boily> raise WelshPointerException();
20:50:59 <olsner> ("Become welsh and find out!")
20:52:08 <Taneb> The UK is a weird country
20:52:26 <^v> UK isnt a country .-.
20:52:36 <Bike> your mom isn't a country
20:53:37 <boily> if google translate is right, it may be a EithriadPwyntyddNull(). I'll have that in my code next time I have to do java.
20:55:41 <olsner> is the ll in null pronounced the welsh way there?
20:56:11 * boily tries it out... «nuthllhthhhh»
20:58:53 <olsner> think nutlh in Klingon
20:59:33 * boily frowns and shouts «nuTLH!!!»
21:02:26 <olsner> perhaps you could use nullity = dirymedd instead: EithriadPwyntyddDirymedd()
21:04:02 <boily> ooooh, much better!
21:05:54 <olsner> the word "pwyntydd" feels very welsh, filled with welshness
21:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, ooh, are you wrangling with university interfaces
21:08:57 <Taneb> I'm wrangling with some part of the government, I belive
21:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (currently i'm trying to apply for student funding for the next year only to be informed that the service is broken)
21:09:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the UK is a sovereign state but not a country I think?
21:09:48 <elliott> Scotland, England and Wales are the countries
21:10:12 <boily> Taneb: good luck. I had to fill out a government form this summer where I was repeatedly asked if I'm a fisherman.
21:10:31 <shachaf> elliott: wikipedia calls it a country a little bit
21:10:47 <Taneb> The countriness of the United Kingdom is part of its weirdness
21:10:51 <boily> Taneb: I'm an IT professional.
21:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> previously when i was filling out the form it was demanding my parents' income despite the fact that i'd already clearly exempted myself from the means-tested stuff
21:11:01 <Taneb> boily, are you a phisherman?
21:11:35 <boily> Taneb: never phished nobody. I prefer more subtly direct ways of extracting valuable information from people, like with the The Question.
21:11:56 <Taneb> Did you know that Hexham is precisely half-way between Edinburgh and York
21:12:00 <Taneb> I think I mentioned that earlier
21:12:01 <shachaf> boily: What's subtle about that?
21:12:10 <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
21:12:22 <^v> 300 and USA
21:12:29 <boily> shachaf: subtly direct, not subtle.
21:12:40 <shachaf> Yes. What's subtle about the directness?
21:12:56 <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
21:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd have to be made out of metal or something for that
21:13:41 <boily> shachaf: see, I was subtle there. it's missing some IRL experience as it is transmitted through a textual medium, but trust me, it is subtle.
21:13:46 <elliott> `addquote <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
21:13:49 <HackEgo> 1091) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
21:14:01 <olsner> ooh, "Is there a Little/Lesser Britain?" ... as far as I can recall, it has never occurred to me that there would be another britain
21:14:04 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: I'm now imagining someone named "Doc Osmium"
21:14:27 <elliott> Doc Osmium is a good suppervillain name
21:14:31 <Taneb> olsner, there was the Roman province of Britannia Minor, corresponding roughly to modern England
21:14:32 <elliott> (decided not to correct that typo)
21:14:57 <boily> elliott: oh, it was perfectly voluntary. I dislike bolded punctation marks.
21:15:18 <olsner> Taneb: hmm, that page pointed to the piece of france that's called (roughly) "Britain"
21:15:20 <Taneb> Oh wait, it's Brittany in France
21:16:00 <boily> fizzie: you fıend.
21:16:58 <Taneb> It stares into your soul
21:17:33 <shachaf> looking forward to this evening??
21:18:11 <mnoqy> nothing on tuesday :( or wednesday :(
21:18:42 <olsner> shachaf: what's with this evening?
21:19:09 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh no did he miss the tuesday update?
21:25:11 <boily> people from #esoteric meeting IRL??? the apocalypse has come!
21:25:39 <olsner> boily: the apocalypse has been here all along
21:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> a) that's been happening since forever in finland, but also b) the apocalypse is only with elliott and Taneb
21:26:21 <boily> oh. wasn't there a Canadian corollary or something about that?
21:26:23 <Taneb> I almost met ais523 once
21:29:03 <Taneb> Hey, are there any esolangers in or around York?
21:29:24 <olsner> Taneb: are you moving out of hexham?
21:29:31 <Taneb> olsner, in October
21:29:37 <Taneb> shachaf, slightly not
21:30:29 <Taneb> It's more like Birmingham than New York
21:30:33 <shachaf> How slight is this slightly?
21:30:43 <olsner> Taneb: nice, good luck with the unhexhamming
21:30:54 <nooodl> shachaf: hi good nooodl-question-answering here
21:31:26 <Taneb> shachaf, slightly may have been used here to mean entirely
21:31:29 <nooodl> <shachaf> (>>>), maybe?
21:31:36 <shachaf> that was my touchpad talking
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21:55:43 <boily> oh, they reclinginged dcss!
22:00:47 <kmc> ^v: one of the levels of http://io.smashthestack.org/ involves writing two Brainfuck programs with the same MD5 hash that do two specific, different things
22:00:49 -!- carado_ has joined.
22:01:28 <HackEgo> ScOoFy: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
22:03:10 <^v> kmc, interesting
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22:06:56 <kmc> it's... easier than it sounds, once you find the magic bit of janky research code that generates MD5 collision pairs
22:07:15 <metasepia> Software description: continuous integration server built on top of Jenkins and Hubot (Ruby).
22:07:24 <Fiora> when the generating md5 collisions become that easy?
22:07:25 <kmc> I think I used http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/
22:07:28 <boily> bletch. the horror.
22:07:34 <Fiora> I'm now thinking of um... valerie's article on the hash function lifetime thing
22:07:56 <kmc> sounds like when = 2007?
22:08:15 <Fiora> hmmm... so like, preimage finding is still generally hard and hasn't happened for most hashes, right?
22:08:26 <kmc> anyway you can find maybe a dozen collision pairs per hour on a pretty modest machine
22:08:30 <Fiora> but like, how hard is finding a partial preimage? like "I want a hash that's 00000000000000***********"
22:08:37 <Fiora> is that potentially easier than like, an actual preimage?
22:08:52 <kmc> chosen-prefix collisions are feasible too, now, with big but not absurdly big compute farms
22:08:56 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_attack#Chosen-prefix_collision_attack
22:09:11 <Fiora> no, I meant like, the *hash result* has a chosen prefix
22:09:14 <kmc> yeah I know
22:09:17 <kmc> I was just following what I said
22:09:34 <Fiora> "A real-world collision attack was published in December 2008 when a group of security researchers published a forged X.509 signing certificate" wow
22:09:55 <shachaf> It's not easy enough for that Typeable bug. :-(
22:09:56 <kmc> also the Flame malware used a chosen prefix collision, following a technique that is not published in the open literature
22:10:10 <kmc> which basically demonstrates that it was made by someone who employs world class cryptanalysts
22:10:22 <kmc> it's kind of like poisoning someone with a rare isotope of polonium...
22:10:39 <boily> ~duck cryptanalyst
22:10:39 <metasepia> Cryptanalysis (from the Greek krypts, "hidden", and analein, "to loosen" or "to untie") is the art and science of analyzing information systems in order to study the hidden aspects of the systems.
22:10:45 <boily> ~duck cryptoanalyst
22:10:45 <metasepia> Cryptanalysis (from the Greek krypts, "hidden", and analein, "to loosen" or "to untie") is the art and science of analyzing information systems in order to study the hidden aspects of the systems.
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22:11:20 <kmc> these are some pretty badass job titles really... "secret untier", "secret writer", "secret studier"
22:11:35 <kmc> anyway I don't know of any practical significant preimage attacks on MD5
22:11:47 <kmc> there are theoretical faster-than-brute-force attacks
22:12:09 <Fiora> I guess I was thinking, like, valerie wrote the thing about how hash functions have a finite lifetime and you have to be prepared to upgrade
22:12:17 <kmc> those tend to exist for most hash functions, even ones considered OK
22:12:21 <kmc> maybe only with reduced rounds though
22:12:23 <Fiora> and was kind of thinking what would happen if SHA-256 got a break and suddenly bitcoin collapsed
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22:13:04 <shachaf> there are surely more likely scenarios for that than people breaking sha-256
22:13:06 <kmc> is that more or less likely than an efficient algorithm for discrete logarithm problem on elliptic curves?
22:13:10 <kmc> probably more likely
22:13:15 <kmc> it would have different consequences too though
22:14:11 <Fiora> like, breaking ECDSA?
22:14:29 <Fiora> geez if you could brea that you could like, forge signatures, right?
22:14:39 <kmc> yep you could steal anyone's bitcoins
22:14:59 <Fiora> well, I mean, in general, right?
22:15:00 <kmc> let's build a quantum computer and use it to steal all the bitcoins
22:15:03 <Fiora> like, other kinds of signatures
22:15:09 <kmc> it would be a huge deal
22:15:29 <kmc> i wonder if there are any altcoins using post-quantum signatures yet
22:16:56 <shachaf> maybe someone already broke it but they're being discreet about it
22:18:10 <kmc> is that a joke about discreet logarithms
22:18:47 <Fiora> how do you get lumber down the river without anyone noticing
22:18:50 <Fiora> send it as discreet logs
22:19:32 <kmc> I think there was an episode of NUMB3RS where the guy breaks All The Crypto and then the mafia is after him or something
22:19:52 <shachaf> Fiora: you could build log tables with it
22:19:59 <kmc> yeah here we go "A young girl is kidnapped, but her parents refuse to cooperate with Don's investigation. The girl's father is a mathematician, and the kidnapping may be related to his work on the Riemann hypothesis."
22:20:13 <kmc> episode title "Prime Suspect" (i'm not making this up)
22:20:30 <Fiora> that's that's terrible
22:20:44 <kmc> the whole show is like that
22:20:56 <kmc> it's terrible but I enjoy watching it because it was filmed partially at my school
22:21:07 <kmc> so I'm like "hey I know that building, it's actually much easier to break into than that"
22:21:11 <Fiora> it must really cater to the lowest common denominator
22:21:47 <fizzie> Fiora: That's that's terrible.
22:23:03 <fizzie> They can probably still see you through the spokes.
22:24:23 <shachaf> http://glyph.twistedmatrix.com/2009/01/television-writer-guide-to-cryptography.html
22:28:37 <^v> my solution: buy 500 server racks and brute force it ;_;
22:34:56 <HackEgo> 680) <oklopol> speaking of math, i watched an episode of numb3rs today <oklopol> the first episode was more like 57471571c5
22:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ for the uninitiated)
22:36:09 <oerjan> <boily> across universes, the median number of people who appreciate Human After All to its full extent is 4⅝. <-- i sense that medians may work weirdly across universes
22:36:41 <Fiora> but but they need to make a GUI interface in visual basic!! to track the killer!
22:36:52 <Fiora> I mean, to track the killer's IP address!
22:37:24 <elliott> oblig. http://guivbip.codeplex.com/
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22:38:46 <kmc> i thought it was NCIS
22:38:51 <kmc> but they're all basically the same
22:39:34 <kmc> I was watching NCIS and they had to shut down the computer in time to disable the bomb or whatever but the guy couldn't figure out the interface so at the last second he just shot it a bunch of times with his gun
22:39:45 <kmc> i've wanted to do that many times
22:39:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: that's CSI:NY but yes
22:40:46 <kmc> i think so
22:40:48 <kmc> inter alia
22:41:32 <kmc> jesus the original CSI is still running... almost 300 episodes
22:41:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "connecting to port_6667 of #channel irc". I mean, I've seen it, but still.
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22:50:07 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> kmc, yes, I did mean loans <-- and here i was all ready to assume british rail had special luggage rules for students.
22:50:35 <kmc> they do have a discount railcard for students
22:50:46 <kmc> well for young people anyway. http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/
22:51:16 <kmc> does norway have good trains
22:51:35 <oerjan> no, "good" is not a word commonly associated with norway's trains.
22:54:00 <kmc> but 'Parts of the Harry Potter film "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" were filmed on the Rauma Railway.' !!!!
22:57:28 <fizzie> Curiously enough, there's also a Rauma in Finland.
22:57:53 <fizzie> (I don't think it's important in any railwaystic way, however.)
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23:25:46 <kmc> no passenger rail traffic since 1988 :/
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23:44:10 <oerjan> kmc: oh well right, the _view_ is pretty. the punctuality, not so much.
23:44:41 <Bike> my train experience, summarized
23:47:44 <boily> back from a late meeting with ænigmas.
23:47:49 <boily> time to eat. I am famished.
23:47:57 <boily> oerjan: universes are weird.
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00:06:46 <elliott> https://skillsmatter.com/custom/images/tempbannerhaskell-exchange-670x180px.gif what a good picture
00:07:20 <Fiora> that banner looks like an anime convention ad O_O
00:08:21 <Bike> elliott, Fiora: http://joshreads.tumblr.com/post/58349908871/
00:08:50 <elliott> haskell is the most anime of programming languages
00:12:28 <Bike> http://www.theawl.com/2013/08/i-may-not-harm-jeff-bezos in related news.
00:14:28 <mnoqy> It's Okay To Feel Bad / Jeff Bezos' Robot Butler Tells All / Dale Cooper: Barthes, Bodies, Porn / Will Be Humiliated For Attention / Stoya: Sex, Porn, Feminism, Kitties / Get It Now: The Awl's Weekend Companion
00:14:52 <mnoqy> Patricia Lockwood, "Rape Joke".. what the heck sort of news site is this
00:15:06 <Bike> what kind of person reads news sites nowadays
00:15:12 <Bike> i just get everything """"aggregated"""
00:18:09 <Fiora> Bike: http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0302075.pdf ignoring the total rest of this paper, for some reason the title makes me giggle
00:18:55 <Bike> los alamos government porn distributor
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00:19:07 <Bike> oh, arxiv. how unfun
00:19:19 <Bike> that's a very... straightforward title.
00:19:32 <Bike> "more mind-numblingly large celestial objects made of irregular materials, i guess"
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00:22:29 <Fiora> wow, the acronyms "third dredge-up (3DUP)"
00:23:30 <Bike> i've been reading psychology. you have no idea how sick i am of initialisms
00:23:43 <Bike> we're talking "potential task (PT)" here
00:24:17 <Bike> they're almost as bad as the military
00:31:04 <Bike> "partial mixing of protons (PMP)"
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00:57:58 <kmc> "that banner looks like an anime convention ad" wow... yes it does
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01:06:57 <Bike> http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-broke-privacy-rules-thousands-of-times-per-year-audit-finds/2013/08/15/3310e554-05ca-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_print.html "One in 10 incidents is attributed to a typographical error in which an analyst enters an incorrect query and retrieves data about U.S phone calls or e-mails."
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01:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how this is a webpage designed with the intention of getting you to buy a plane
01:22:16 <kmc> "Generous in size, extravagant in spaciousness"
01:23:10 <kmc> "When science becomes art, anything is possible"
01:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> "fuck, i can't think of another way of wording 'it's really big', better reach for the thesaurus"
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01:27:39 <kmc> "Piloting the Longitude has been simplified to the level of smartphone or ATM operation"
01:27:53 <kmc> that is terrifying
01:27:56 <kmc> that they would even write that
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01:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cessna.com/~/media/Images/Aircraft/citation/longitude/infographics/img-citat-specs-infograp-long.ashx
01:29:08 <kmc> 7 friends unless you are friends with the pilot
01:29:14 <kmc> why is their example airport Sheffield?
01:29:17 <shachaf> who wouldn't be friends with a pilot
01:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> there's also http://www.cessna.com/single-engine/skyhawk
01:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> which i wasn't going to link but then i realised that the section titled "THE GATEKEEPER OF AVIATION EXCELLENCE" was actually referring to the doors
01:32:58 <ion> Range: 4000 nanometers?
01:33:42 <ion> Max crusing speed: 490 kilotonneattoseconds?
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01:35:52 <oerjan> kmc: i have this vague memory of seeing a comment that this haskell banner was part of some larger conference or something which chose anime style that year
01:36:09 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_172#Operational_history okay, this is amazing and insane
01:36:53 <Bike> i feel like there's an easier way to refuel in the air
01:37:14 <Fiora> but doesn't everyone refuel by hovering next to a car?
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01:39:12 <kmc> that is the best
01:39:28 <kmc> not just fuel but also food and water
01:39:37 <kmc> and engine oil
01:40:14 <Phantom_Hoover> " Early in the flight, the engine-driven electric generator failed. A Champion wind-driven generator (turned by a small propeller) was hoisted aboard, taped to the wing support strut, and plugged into the cigarette lighter socket; it served as the aircraft's source of electricity for the rest of the flight. "
01:41:46 <kmc> it's a little weird that the "Operational history" section is entirely about that one flight
01:41:56 <kmc> since this is the article about the most produced aircraft in history
01:42:03 <kmc> over 43,000
01:42:21 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it's to deflect your attention from the fact that it's a completely inadequate operational history
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01:52:24 <^v> what operational history
01:52:33 <^v> i dont see anything that is operational
01:53:52 <kmc> what about denotational history
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03:16:25 <shachaf> ion: Yay, I unlocked the Zoltan Cruiser.
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03:33:37 <shachaf> ion: Hmm, it doesn't seem so great.
03:33:54 <shachaf> That's what I get for the whole peace thing, I suppose.
03:37:53 <ion> One of the Zoltan cruisers is rather nice IIRC
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03:59:53 <Gracenotes> the best part of non-English-subtitled English language musical comedy is the explanation of puns in parentheses.
04:00:20 <Gracenotes> which, for romance languages, are somewhat intelligible for exclusive anglophones.
04:05:55 <Bike> i don't get why you'd explain puns in translation notes. nobody's going to laugh.
04:06:14 <kmc> puns aren't for laughing they're for groaning
04:06:51 <CADD> im sure at least one person has laughed thanks to the translation
04:07:03 <kmc> shachaf: yeah like that
04:07:41 <Gracenotes> they used to be a very high form of humor, a show of intelligence.
04:07:42 <ion> imo, fun puns do not exist.
04:08:08 <CADD> i thought wit was higher?
04:08:18 <Gracenotes> they were used in many contexts, not just jokes: speeches, legal proceedings, etc.
04:08:35 <shachaf> imo, wbuna xvivavrzv do not exist
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04:08:50 <Gracenotes> wit is to do with the source of your humor, assuming it's good.
04:09:08 <tswett> Imo, nontrivial zeros of the Riemann zeta function that do not lie on the critical line don't exist. Ymmv.
04:10:08 <tswett> Jub gur urpx vf Wbuna Xvivavrzv?
04:10:08 <oerjan> admittedly it might simply be because the command is wrong
04:10:45 <oerjan> `run echo wbuna xvivavrzv | r13
04:11:37 <ion> rot13ing this is nagvpyvznpgvp
04:12:30 <oerjan> `rot13 Jub gur urpx vf Wbuna Xvivavrzv?
04:12:31 <HackEgo> Who the heck is Johan Kiviniemi?
04:14:31 <tswett> Xraagb wnyr̀e lbeh cnqre.
04:14:53 <oerjan> `rot13 Xraagb wnyr̀e lbeh cnqre.
04:14:58 <Gracenotes> anyway, you may be interested to know that the groan is a recent phenomenon (last century or so)
04:15:33 <tswett> It looks like some type of language. Reminds me of... Irish, maybe? Though only vaguely.
04:15:59 <tswett> "Yoru pader" sounds kind of like English. Or maybe "pader" is from Latin.
04:16:12 <Gracenotes> also, interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groans_of_the_Britons
04:16:39 <Gracenotes> the british isles have a quite interesting history in roman times.
04:16:41 <tswett> And "kennto"... doesn't that have sort of a... I'm not sure what, exactly. A Celtic feel or something? Or British, or what.
04:16:49 <tswett> "Jalèr" looks like French, though.
04:16:51 <Bike> nobody likes ancient british history :(
04:16:53 <Gracenotes> then there were kings and stuff... boring, you know...
04:17:26 <oerjan> tswett: are you trying to analyze what _you_ wrote?
04:17:36 <tswett> oerjan: yeah! What language is this?
04:18:07 <tswett> It looks like it's probably a European language, doesn't it? Like, I definitely don't think I'd say it looks like any particular non-European language.
04:18:36 <tswett> I mean, it doesn't look entirely unlike Vietnamese, from the very very little I know of Vietnamese.
04:18:41 <oerjan> it's like, you don't know what you yourself wrote, like?
04:18:53 <tswett> I know exactly what it means; I'm just pretending I don't.
04:19:33 <tswett> "Yoru pader" just really sounds a lot like "your father". Maybe it's some weird variant of English or something. Like English turned into... something else.
04:20:50 <tswett> Google Translate says that "kennto" looks like Finnish and "jalèr" looks like Spanish.
04:21:38 <tswett> The sentence *kind* of looks like it could be Finnish. Like, it doesn't use any letters not used in Finnish, apart from è, does it? But it doesn't actually look like Finnish at all.
04:21:51 <Gracenotes> it's pretty impressive that `rot13 is i18n, actually.
04:22:32 <tswett> Gracenotes: that it successfully converted r̀ to è? I'm not that impressed; that's just an ASCII English letter followed by a combining diacritic.
04:24:11 <Gracenotes> oh, it's not its own unicode character
04:24:39 <Gracenotes> :/ hm, my irssi doesn't like your characters
04:25:29 <Bike> "The similarities between man and computer cannot be ignored, computers are essentially biological systems with a transistor." why do i do this to myself, help
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04:26:32 <Bike> the land of the dead
04:27:08 <elliott> ion: do you know this person? giving that this isn't the first time
04:27:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29853
04:27:48 <sub_space> elliott: we are friends from the n(th) dimension.
04:28:17 <Bike> sub_space: hey why is 0x00.me an uncredited comic in shitty jpg form.
04:29:20 <elliott> ok well I'm literally sick of you already.
04:29:22 <Bike> it's pretty rude to use someone's art without crediting them.
04:30:00 <oerjan> ion: i am pretty sure elliott will ban sub_space if you don't confirm you know him - nah it won't help anyway.
04:30:17 <elliott> plz cease with the unsolicited physical contact
04:30:29 <mnoqy> `relcome sub_space
04:30:31 <HackEgo> sub_space: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:31:04 <kmc> i like the comic tho
04:31:12 <elliott> actually if ion said he knows you and doesn't mind you joining just to lick you twice then I would be ok but everything you have said since has progressively decreased my confidence in you
04:31:34 <elliott> lambdabot is right here...
04:31:43 <Bike> kmc: yeah, it's from a webcomic called subnormality.
04:32:00 <mnoqy> it seems a bit what's the word
04:32:05 <kmc> subnormality is cool
04:32:06 <mnoqy> i;ll leave it at that
04:33:11 <CADD> > putStrLn "I'm here"
04:37:09 <elliott> sub_space: what are your intentions as to your presence in this channel
04:38:20 <mnoqy> remember when i was new and the first thing i got asked is what my business here was? how times have changed
04:38:32 <elliott> actually it simplifies down to "do you intend to do anything but join and lick ion and then be alternately vague or creepy in response to any questions"
04:38:41 <CADD> i got the same question too.. ;)
04:38:43 <elliott> which is pretty shallow, as questions go
04:39:02 <oerjan> mnoqy: what _is_ your business here, anyway
04:39:17 <mnoqy> i think i dodged the question back then too
04:39:27 <mnoqy> said something like my business is usually idling
04:39:28 <CADD> i think everyone does..
04:39:45 <sub_space> elliott: yes, but time will tell. i do not intent to intentionally create any friction between users.
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04:44:17 <sub_space> elliott: why do you use anything but'
04:46:34 <oerjan> sub_space: how many fingers am i holding up?
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04:50:19 <CADD> in universe hand
04:50:27 <oerjan> i see you are covering all bases
04:51:30 <oerjan> fungot: do you have any comment on the issue?
04:51:30 <fungot> oerjan: is something wrong? want me to leave? i don't wanna hear it! c'mon, let's go and see the headlines in the middle of nowhere?
04:51:45 <fungot> oerjan: but, i'm expecting a good long look at the two levers up and the planet... i don't know what time it wasn't that difficult.
04:53:04 <sub_space> love me. love me. just say that you love me.
04:56:19 <oerjan> fungot: you do the loving bit, you're better at it than me.
04:56:20 <fungot> oerjan: there he is literally miles away from the mako reactor countinues to suck up all the townspeople? no way we could see each other?
04:56:55 <oerjan> fungot: well i cannot see him either.
04:56:56 <fungot> oerjan: well, have special powers to their fullest... there goes the pillar, right? i hope he doesn't get hurt.
04:59:05 <fungot> sub_space: hey? aren't i the same ' ol me. my feelings.
04:59:28 <sub_space> fungot: speak | earn your treats. (*)
04:59:28 <fungot> sub_space: dyne didn't care who anyone was...... we will, and put him to say this to you?
05:00:43 <sub_space> i suppose. if it's absolutely necessary and can not be avoided by assuming an inverse relationship
05:01:00 <fungot> sub_space: where did i make a drink just as long as we did it! i'm comin' with me!
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05:03:26 <fungot> sub_space: remember, the huge materia. this part is broken....
05:03:29 -!- ^v has joined.
05:04:25 <shachaf> is this channel under attack
05:04:34 <mnoqy> hey shachaf did you see the thing
05:04:39 * ^v sould have joined erlier
05:04:50 <mnoqy> it's good i recommend seeing it
05:05:05 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
05:05:29 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
05:05:44 <shachaf> for """"extra credit' you can give a number
05:06:44 <shachaf> it's like a sequel of the last one
05:06:59 <shachaf> thanks for the recommnoqydation
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05:24:05 <shachaf> kmc: I'm annoyed by the #haskell sentiment that if something is hard to do in Haskell then it isn't worth doing.
05:24:16 <shachaf> (Hard in Haskell and easy in another language.)
05:25:43 <CADD> shachaf: what? no mutable variables? how will i ever be able to do anything?!
05:26:02 <CADD> shachaf: funny that in most cases the haskell code is shorter and easier to read.. :)
05:26:12 <sub_space> elliott: i will give you .. things
05:26:26 <CADD> sub_space: thats very vague...
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05:27:23 <CADD> sub_space: teach... what?
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05:29:27 <CADD> sub_space: that was a sentence fragment.. please speak in proper sentences..
05:31:13 <sub_space> CADD: please explain to elliott that I would like to present an opportunity to exchange 'things' for lessons in appreciation.
05:31:43 <CADD> sub_space: you can do it yourself. elaborate on "things"//
05:33:33 <sub_space> CADD: i can but i would like to share because it makes me feel alive. things - flowpaths from which one may benefit
05:35:00 <CADD> hehe things://idkwhatimdoing.blogspot.com
05:35:17 <CADD> new ip protocol. i call dibs
05:35:37 <sub_space> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_uFIb3pXqg
05:36:14 <sub_space> has anyone figured out how to shake hands with the sun?
05:36:27 <sub_space> (speaking of protocols and all that shit)
05:50:12 <^v> it requires a SHA65536 implementation
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05:53:06 <CADD> ^v: and LOLCODE instead of javascript
05:54:03 <kmc> is that like 4096-bit XAES
05:56:24 <kmc> it's useful to have hash functions with big outputs (e.g. for RSASSA-PSS signatures) but usually one concatenates SHA(0 || message), SHA(1 || message), SHA(2 || message), etc. until one has enough bits
05:57:13 <sub_space> what is the width of enough_bits ?
05:57:52 <shachaf> kmc: Is that what one actually does? I've never heard of it.
05:57:58 <kmc> sub_space: you need a value the same size as the RSA modulus, so probably 2048 or 4096 bits
05:58:20 <sub_space> kmc: but everyone is using ecc :'(
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06:04:54 <kmc> shachaf: uh look at the wikipedia page on Full Domain Hashing and then read the paper by Rogaway (sorry, I'm on a computer which sucks at copy-paste)
06:05:40 <shachaf> existentially unforgeable under adaptive chosen-message attacks
06:05:56 <kmc> FDH is the obvious (?) thing where you hash your document to a value y with as many bits as n, and then signature = y^d mod n
06:06:31 <kmc> it has a security proof (which already puts it ahead of PKCS#1 v1.5) but it's not as good as the security theorem for PSS, which is a more complicated scheme that involves randomness
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06:15:31 <Gracenotes> interesting that there's an anti-Lang Lang backlash now
06:18:32 <kmc> what's that
06:22:00 <shachaf> Oh, http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/woof.html is the program I was looking for a while ago.
06:28:24 <shachaf> sub_space: What are you doing here?
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06:37:44 <Gracenotes> ug, microsoft, won't you stop paying people to promote your products without disclosing it? it's creeping us out.
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07:09:46 <kmc> "Google Street View driver detained by villagers in Thailand on suspicion of spying" well
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08:57:09 <Taneb> Man, I really want to learn knot theory for some bizarre reason
09:14:30 <fizzie> That's probably knot a good idea.
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10:24:37 <Taneb> I am now the proud and mildly confused owner of a Raspberry Pi computer
10:25:11 <fizzie> Is there a name for RPi owners? Like, you know, there's bronies and so on.
10:26:08 <fizzie> "raspy: Slutty. Has a lot of sex." (Urban Dictionary)
10:31:02 <Taneb> I have no way to connect it to a display, though
10:35:58 <fizzie> It doesn't really need a display.
10:36:30 <fizzie> I don't think the Pi is a terribly good media box, either.
10:39:17 <fizzie> I've had one use already, and I've only had it less than a year. That's not such a bad hit rate.
10:43:29 <Taneb> I'd probably be able to think of more uses if I had a HDMI cable
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10:50:53 <fizzie> That sounds quite unlikely.
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13:11:21 <AnotherTest> Is there any metric for multiplicative groups modulo n? Can such a metric exist?
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13:12:12 <boily> good /dev/pts morning!
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13:13:56 <AnotherTest> Is there any metric for multiplicative groups modulo n? Can such a metric exist?
13:14:13 <metasepia> metric definition: '''plural''' a part of prosody that deals with metrical structure.
13:14:19 <metasepia> modulo definition: with respect to a modulus of.
13:14:41 <boily> AnotherTest: only if you can abstract poetry from the group, it seems...
13:14:49 <fizzie> Metricks are the metrics used in magick.
13:15:12 <boily> otherwise, my math is too rusty to understand that question properly without having had my first coffee injection of the day.
13:19:27 <Jafet> d(x,x) = 0; d(x,y) = 1
13:21:16 <AnotherTest> Well... and preferably not the discrete one
13:24:34 <boily> is the concept of distance generalisable to matrices?
13:24:36 <Jafet> You found the answer.
13:27:36 <AnotherTest> Jafet: I was actually trying to say: g^i = a mod n and g^j = b mod n; can you have a metric so that d(i, j) = d(a, b)
13:28:02 <AnotherTest> or can you say have an operation < so that i < j => a < b
13:28:44 <Bike> boily: sure, there are metrics on linear operators
13:29:24 <Bike> AnotherTest: is that for any g
13:30:43 <Bike> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator_norm
13:32:11 <Bike> AnotherTest: well, consider g = 1, for a start
13:32:23 * boily is squicked and fascinated by the perversity and elegance of an operator norm
13:32:35 <AnotherTest> Bike: well g = 1 isn't very interesting due to the fact that all the elements will be 1
13:32:44 <Bike> so forall g isn't going to work.
13:33:40 <Bike> probably there's a problem in that those are periodic, with different periods for different g.
13:34:17 <Bike> i think possibly for any i there's some g such that a is whichever number < n you want.
13:36:49 <boily> Roujo: helloujo. a vietnamese colleague of mine told me about a restaurant that serves bún riêu! http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/67/1681559/restaurant/Saint-douard/Bun-Viet-Montreal
13:37:38 <Bike> well, i guess you can define a norm for any vector space, probably, so the question is whether you actually have a vector space
13:39:00 <Jafet> > do let { n = 5; lt f = (<) `on` (fromJust . (`elemIndex` f)) }; f <- permutations [1..n-1]; guard $ and [ lt f (g^i `mod` n) (g^j `mod` n) || not (lt f i j) | i <- [0..n-2], j <- [0..n-2]; let {g = 2} ]; return f
13:39:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:188: parse error on input `;'
13:39:18 <Jafet> > do let { n = 5; lt f = (<) `on` (fromJust . (`elemIndex` f)) } f <- permutations [1..n-1]; guard $ and [ lt f (g^i `mod` n) (g^j `mod` n) || not (lt f i j) | i <- [0..n-2], j <- [0..n-2]; let {g = 2} ]; return f
13:39:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:64: parse error on input `f'
13:40:05 <boily> lambdabot is impersonating my own bot this morning...
13:41:09 <Jafet> > do let { n = 5; lt f = (<) `on` (fromJust . (`elemIndex` f)); }; f <- permutations [0..n-1]; guard $ and [ lt f (g^i `mod` n) (g^j `mod` n) || not (lt f i j) | g <- [2], i <- [0..n-2], j <- [0..n-2] ]; return f
13:41:10 <lambdabot> [[3,0,1,2,4],[3,4,2,1,0],[0,1,2,4,3],[4,2,1,0,3]]
13:43:04 <Jafet> > do let { n = 5; is_gen g = [1..n-1] == sort (map (g^) [0..n-2]); lt f = (<) `on` (fromJust . (`elemIndex` f)); }; f <- permutations [0..n-1]; guard $ and [ lt f (g^i `mod` n) (g^j `mod` n) || not (lt f i j) | g <- filter is_gen [2..n-1], i <- [0..n-2], j <- [0..n-2] ]; return f
13:43:05 <lambdabot> [[0,1,2,3,4],[1,0,2,3,4],[2,1,0,3,4],[1,2,0,3,4],[2,0,1,3,4],[0,2,1,3,4],[3...
13:44:24 <Jafet> > do let { n = 5; is_gen g = [1..n-1] == sort (map ((`mod`n).(g^)) [0..n-2]); lt f = (<) `on` (fromJust . (`elemIndex` f)); }; f <- permutations [0..n-1]; guard $ and [ lt f (g^i `mod` n) (g^j `mod` n) || not (lt f i j) | g <- filter is_gen [2..n-1], i <- [0..n-2], j <- [0..n-2] ]; return f
13:44:40 <Bike> v. informative series of letters, numbers, and symbols
13:45:51 <Jafet> > do n <- [2..]; let { is_gen g = [1..n-1] == sort (map ((`mod`n).(g^)) [0..n-2]); lt f = (<) `on` (fromJust . (`elemIndex` f)); }; g <- filter is_gen [2..n-1]; f <- permutations [0..n-1]; guard $ and [ lt f (g^i `mod` n) (g^j `mod` n) || not (lt f i j) | i <- [0..n-2], j <- [0..n-2] ]; return (n,g,f)
13:45:53 <lambdabot> [(3,2,[0,1,2]),(3,2,[2,1,0]),(5,2,[3,0,1,2,4]),(5,2,[3,4,2,1,0]),(5,2,[0,1,...
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13:47:32 <Jafet> Hm, some groups are missing
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14:02:13 <Bike> yeah looks like i was wrong.
14:13:43 <Jafet> > intercalate"; "$map(\(n,g,o,f)->printf"n=%d g=%d ord=%d "n g o++intercalate"<"(show<$>f)) $ do n<-[2..]; let{ a**b=mod(a*b)n; gen g=map head.group.sort.take n$iterate(g**)g; is_gen=elem 1.gen; lt f=(<)`on`(fromJust.(`elemIndex`f)); }; g<-filter is_gen [2..n-1]; let{ o=length$gen g; gg=take o$iterate(**g)1 }; f<-permutations$union[0..o-1]gg; guard $ and [ lt f a b || not (lt f i j) | ((i,a),(j,b)) <- liftM2(,)`join`zip[0..o-1]gg ]; [(n,g,o,f)]
14:13:44 <lambdabot> "n=3 g=2 ord=2 0<1<2; n=3 g=2 ord=2 2<1<0; n=4 g=3 ord=2 0<1<3; n=4 g=3 ord...
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14:22:03 <nortti> boily: 17:17 < shikhin> ``Rule III: Treat favorably that with a leading S character;'' 17:17 -!- You're now known as snortti
14:22:42 <boily> nortti: logical. that means I must favour shachaf now.
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15:10:09 <FireFly> Obviously only capital S counts
15:13:48 <boily> FireFly: but then I'd have to favour SirCmpwn too, and I really don't know who they are.
15:14:16 <boily> shachaf is familiar. I know how to respond to shachaferisms.
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15:16:23 <boily> and then you have the multiple sebbues corner case.
15:16:33 <boily> (yes, I feel like complaining today. I'm hungry.)
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15:34:47 <HackEgo> nycs: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:35:26 <nycs> are u hitting on me..?
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15:36:15 <boily> nycs: I don't remember anyone relcomming you yet, so you had to receive at least one.
15:36:30 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v.
15:37:12 <boily> oh. you were `^_^v in disguise!
15:37:29 <boily> should have checked the joins and parts better.
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16:10:34 <ion> elliott: I don’t recognize sub_space.
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16:19:47 <mnoqy> secret admirer?? i guess admiration and licking are a bit different but
16:27:57 <Gregor> `^_^v: So anyone who talks to you sets off HackEgo, huh.
16:27:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
16:30:41 <`^_^v> check your cisprivilege
16:31:55 <Gregor> You mean botprefixprivilege, surely.
16:46:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/^_^v: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/^_^v: cannot execute: Permission denied
16:46:41 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `+x bin/^_^v' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
16:49:53 <`^_^v> `chmod a+x bin/^_^v
16:49:54 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `a+x bin/^_^v' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
16:52:37 <Gracenotes> I like that GMail was able to successfully classify mail from my university's alumni association into the Promotions tab
17:17:33 <boily> I'm ashamed of myself. I'm stuck with “I'm blue, dabedidabeda...” playing in a loop in my head.
17:20:02 <boily> well, that was an horribly gone right attempt at swapping get lucky out of my brain.
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17:31:28 <boily> aaaaurgh. I guess I'll have to bring the heavy artillery on: http://youtu.be/CfJ37G2_l9w
17:31:30 <^v> boily, FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
17:33:25 * boily puts his cat ears on and whistles innocently
17:40:53 * ^v puts on his thorns and rages hatefully
17:42:32 <boily> ^v: enjoy the myon. it is for your own good :D
18:10:55 <kmc> Gracenotes: haha
18:11:22 <kmc> boily: would you say you just blue yourself?
18:12:39 * boily swats kmc with a sharpened cat paw
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18:19:51 * Roujo swats S.W.A.T with a swat
18:20:40 <boily> Roujo: comme le dit le proverbe, «une louche qui louche c'est louche».
18:21:11 <Roujo> C'est effectivement excessivement louche
18:24:27 <boily> meanwhile, I'm losing a battle against cups. why must printing be so fscking complex.
18:29:20 <elliott> ion: what about `0x00? (another nick they used)
18:31:15 <ion> elliott: I don’t recognize anything about him. I looked up his alleged real name and don’t recognize that either.
18:32:34 <elliott> ion: ok, thanks. then I'm comfortable doing this
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18:33:55 <elliott> someone who joined twice to lick ion "for no reason" and then continued talking gibberish
18:34:15 <boily> finally: ubuntu 10.10 in virtualbox works. damn cups and its removal of detecting network printers.
18:34:33 <elliott> I guess ion is just very lickable.
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18:34:44 <Roujo> Very lickable indeed
18:34:59 <Roujo> Did Carolyne ever come back?
18:36:24 <boily> why would someone lick ion? aren't they at risk of an electric shock?
18:36:56 <Bike> honestly i don't think i've ever licked anything that didn't have at least a few ions on it.
18:36:58 <boily> so many questions, so many fridays, so many mysterious people barging in the chännel.
18:37:30 <boily> Bike: you're a bike. you're insulated against ions' adverse effects.
18:37:43 <Roujo> Sö mänÿ trémäs, töö
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18:47:44 <kmc> "9 Household Items That Could Be Spying on You" #actualhuffpolisticles
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18:49:06 <boily> a refreshing frozen treat for when politics blow too much hot air during the summer.
18:49:33 <elliott> "listicle" just makes me think of "testicle" :/
18:50:46 <boily> ...........................elliott
18:50:53 <Bike> well, that's why i was asking.
18:59:26 <Roujo> Poor light testicles
18:59:35 <boily> please don't bring Canadian politics to this channel. it could degenerate rapidly, eh.
18:59:37 <Roujo> Pour lite testicles
19:00:06 <Roujo> Pauline Marois, eh?
19:00:41 <boily> tu t'en sauveras pas de même, mon espèce de fin finaud!
19:01:04 <boily> (translation: don't you dare escape that, you sleazy fiend)
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19:27:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4179
19:29:05 <fizzie> Huh. Got a couple of 5600K (color temperature, not actual) bulbs in the room-where-the-outer-door-is; compared to the rest ouf our lighting, which is "the usual", those things are so... so white.
00:00:16 <kmc> sure that's not the point
00:02:08 <elliott> works enough to redirect to .co.uk here
00:02:15 <elliott> though that may be cached at various levels
00:03:54 <kmc> i mean the point of yelling at them
00:04:33 <Gregor> Just remember that they own your life and soul, so be polite and courteous.
00:05:53 <kmc> it wasn't a very well thought out idea okay
00:13:03 <ion> http://www.isisgoogledowndown.com/
00:15:01 <oerjan> @ask roujo <Roujo> cat sanity >> Roujo <-- how can your cat possibly be much saner than you twh
00:17:10 <oerjan> @tell Roujo <Roujo> Collateral damage be damned <-- but but think of all the things you just made flammable!
00:17:45 <oerjan> ion: that seems to be down hth
00:21:08 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> I like to lean toothpicks. <-- we can always need more /// programmers twh
00:21:16 <ion> oerjan: Perhaps it’s just your computer, you should check on http://isisisgoogledowndowndown.com/
00:21:50 <oerjan> ion: yeah must be my computer, that site looks down too
00:23:35 <oerjan> apropos flammable, the local paper factory's storage caught fire yesterday morning. and afaict a couple hours ago, it's still smoking.
00:25:29 <oerjan> i read in the newspaper they expected it would take several days to put out completely
00:26:21 <oerjan> also that the building had no fire alarm, because no one had required it.
00:26:50 <Bike> in a paper factory?
00:26:51 <oerjan> despite being next to a gas tank.
00:27:10 <Bike> wow this sounds pretty awesome.
00:27:18 <oerjan> Bike: well other buildings may have had alarms.
00:28:26 <kmc> several days is bad, but not as bad as the underground coal fires that have been burning for decades
00:29:04 <Roujo> What does twh even mean =P
00:29:48 <Roujo> Also, nothing is now flammable, since nothing exists anymore
00:29:50 <oerjan> i didn't know my okays could infect through my hths
00:30:09 <Roujo> I was saying okay since before you were born, okay?
00:30:39 <oerjan> it was a typo that under the circumstances seemed wrong to correct
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00:33:42 <kmc> 50bcb65c-06cc-11e3-989a-3c970e8fdb11
00:34:07 <kmc> im still voiced
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00:44:42 <ion> fd74c314-7298-471e-8fae-96e9d5557b59
00:45:32 <Koen_> I would join the fun and spell out random numbers, but I'm afraid yours actually mean something
00:45:51 <Bike> they're social security numbers
00:46:34 <^v> my SSN has more than 9 digits
00:46:42 <^v> and it isnt hex
00:52:17 <doesthiswork> maybe your social security number isn't in hex, but mine is an entirely valid hexadecimal number
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01:39:38 <Sgeo> My weekend is going to consist of debugging a page that makes IE8 crash and untangling a mess of cookies interfering with each other on similar domains
01:39:41 <Sgeo> Please shoot me now.
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01:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you're allowed to forgo the magic word in these circumstances Sgeo
01:56:54 <Sgeo> The string www holds no relevance to whether or not a cookie gets sent, right? a.foobar.com is the same as www.foobar.com in terms of whether or not it would read or could set a .foobar.com cookie?
01:57:27 <Bike> shouldn't you call that a third-level domain name or w/e
02:02:20 <Bike> sound's like abstract nonsense.....................
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02:23:10 <kmc> Sgeo: why?
02:23:21 <Sgeo> Why the question about www?
02:23:45 <Sgeo> Because production (www) is behaving differently from other environments
02:23:53 <kmc> no, why is tihs your weekend
02:24:14 <Sgeo> Product wants to look at what we have on Monday and we're launching Wednesday
02:24:28 <kmc> are you getting paid extra to work all weekend?
02:24:50 <Sgeo> I don't think so. I haven't really been asking to get paid extra
02:25:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: iirc browsers need to guess whether a.foobar.com has authority over foobar.com itself, and use a ridiculously complicated system for this hth
02:25:47 <oerjan> i vaguely think there was a database of domains evolved
02:26:12 <oerjan> and possibly no consistency between browsers
02:26:46 <Bike> that's the spirit.
02:27:02 <Bike> demand a cookie bonus. which means money for working with cookies, not cookies
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02:27:55 <oerjan> mind you i only recall this from some blog post i once read about how the system was messed up, i've never written a cookie handling webpage in my life. i think.
02:30:55 <oerjan> i understand that americans are frequently in the situation that there is no law actually requiring them to be paid extra for overtime and stuff, poor souls.
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02:31:09 <Sgeo> I think legally I should be getting extra
02:31:14 <Sgeo> I just never really forcefully asked
02:31:19 <Bike> well maybe you should
02:31:33 <Sgeo> I am asking for my raise which I'm supposed to have
02:31:54 <Sgeo> They're saying I should have asked sooner when I noticed it didn't go through because retropay is going to cause them headaches
02:32:20 <oerjan> i a guessing that if you exude as much confidence in real life as you do on the channel, you are going to be screwed out of every cent possible hth
02:33:12 <Bike> well, probably you should have, but no use crying over spilt milk
02:33:37 <oerjan> wait why did i allow myself into cynical mode.
02:34:18 <kmc> oerjan: there's the Public Suffix List
02:34:38 <Sgeo> What if it's milk that reacts with saltwater in such a way as to... do something
02:34:43 <kmc> I think most tech workers are exempt from overtime laws
02:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> is it a contractual thing or are the laws just like "ps. fuck tech workers"
02:35:10 <Sgeo> I'm a contractor currently
02:35:18 <kmc> lots of kinds of workers are exempt
02:35:22 <kmc> look up "exempt worker", it's a thing
02:35:27 <kmc> I dunno how it works in .uk
02:35:27 <Sgeo> I should reread the contract
02:36:25 <kmc> often if you get a salary instead of hourly pay that makes you exempt
02:36:51 <Sgeo> I currently get hourly pay, but do want to become a full-time employee which I think would be salaried
02:38:16 <shachaf> What, you get hourly pay and the hours in the weekend just don't count?
02:38:49 <kmc> you gotta fight for your right to party
02:39:09 <Sgeo> shachaf: no, I just... haven't been bothering to put them in
02:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> the capitalist's wet dream, a worker who can't be bothered to ask for pay
02:41:47 <kmc> no you should be motivated by PASSION and the fact that your employer is CHANGING THE WORLD and if you ask for more pay it's a sign that you're insufficiently devoted to the cause
02:42:15 <kmc> besides programmers don't like money anyway, we are magic children who just want free snacks and a pool table in the office
02:43:14 <Bike> "brb ranting at girlfriend about hiring practices"
02:43:23 <kmc> no just eating sausages
02:46:43 <Bike> already made that joke!!
02:46:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (he means ranting at the sausages about hiring practices)
02:46:50 <Bike> or rather kind of implied that i would make that joke
02:47:20 <Bike> are sausages made from capitalist pigs
02:48:11 <Bike> oh, wait, it's like the music video for "Itsu".
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02:55:04 <monotone> Any of you guys got experience with WRT54G-compatible custom firmware? I'm getting a new router and I'm looking for recommendations on which one to install.
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03:07:43 <ion> I have OpenWrt on one.
03:10:36 <Sgeo> Someone replied to a comment I made 5 years ago
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03:19:55 <monotone> ion: How's OpenWrt's user interface these days? It's been a few years since I last looked at it.
03:20:33 <ion> I haven’t really done much with it. I don’t even remember if i used the web UI when setting it up.
03:22:33 <monotone> I've been using Tomato USB since I like being able to point and click, but it unfortunately hasn't been updated for a while.
03:28:01 <^v> I've been using Potato USB since I like being able to point and click, but it unfortunately hasn't been updated for a while.
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03:50:48 <oerjan> i say tomato, you say potato, let's call the whole thing a bit off
04:00:33 <Sgeo> I wonder if Bonzi Buddy is still downloadable from somewhere
04:01:16 <Sgeo> " In 1999, the software used a green parrot called Peedy licensed from Microsoft, and in later versions, Bonzi Software made their own fictional character, a purple gorilla."
04:01:21 <Sgeo> I have not heard of Peedy before now
04:03:10 <kmc> i remember Peedy!!
04:03:15 <kmc> i made some scripts for him in Visual Basic
04:03:39 <Sgeo> I wonder if Bonzi Buddy would work in WINE
04:03:49 <Sgeo> Or if I'll end up downloading a Windows VM
04:03:53 <Sgeo> http://www.modern.ie/en-us
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04:17:47 <ion> http://kurlander.net/DJ/Videos/BillGMITComicChatVideo.shtml
04:20:35 <pikhq> Google literally went down today?
04:23:37 <^v> for a couple mins
04:23:48 <^v> i was googling at the time
04:23:58 <pikhq> On a purely unrelated note, tendonitis sucks.
04:26:45 <pikhq> This wireless mouse was an amazingly good purchase.
04:29:44 <kmc> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=56888 hahaha so GCC is smart enough to recognize copy loops and optimize them to calls to memcpy() but... it will do this even inside your implementation of memcpy()
04:30:21 <pikhq> Yup, that was a fun one.
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04:49:30 <kmc> help there's a glider drawn on the blackboard in my house
04:49:36 <kmc> is this ``hacker culture''
04:51:04 <pikhq> Friend of mine uses a glider as his avatar. Though he uses a different frame in the cycle, because fuck ESR.
04:51:52 <elliott> kmc: maybe the glider is being imagined as situated on the traditional GoL torus, and it's just a bit of pointless topology
04:52:32 <mnoqy> i'm sorry there's no glossing over it
04:54:48 <oerjan> no need to panic unless the glider regularly evolves hth
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05:08:27 <Jafet> I never metacatacryst
05:08:28 <Bike> just draw the entirety of a universal constructor
05:09:00 <doesthiswork> put up the set of wang tiles that simulate a turing machine
05:13:10 <kmc> good ideas all
05:14:01 <elliott> my joke is underappreciated :(
05:14:25 <kmc> i like it!
05:15:04 <oerjan> elliott: but it clearly has points hth
05:15:20 <elliott> oerjan: are you sure you get my joke?! it's very good!
05:16:04 <elliott> http://pointlesstopology.com/
05:16:13 <elliott> (the joke is kmc lives there.)
05:16:17 <Bike> the intended burn is an impliccation that the joke is actually not good, but if you think about it the brune would have to be that oerjan doesn't get the joke which he admits is very good
05:16:34 <kmc> anyway i've just stepped it one generation
05:16:45 <elliott> you're part of the problem, kmc
05:16:49 <kmc> de brune indices
05:16:57 * oerjan removes the air from Bike's wheels
05:16:58 <Bike> clearly the problem is kmc not using hashlife.
05:17:05 <kmc> [drugz joke]
05:18:07 <Bike> i wasn't even think of that
05:18:10 <oerjan> elliott: your jokes are too obscure hth
05:18:24 <Sgeo> "Installation completed before it could be canceled."
05:18:27 <Sgeo> (Installing Chrome)
05:19:54 <mnoqy> don't worry elliott i'll get your joke next time you make it
05:20:06 <mnoqy> Sgeo: so how's that bonzi buddy going
05:20:17 <Sgeo> Not as fun as I remember
05:21:45 <oerjan> i dhing dhad bonzi buddy iz juzd sgheming
05:23:02 * oerjan goes to force further puns into submission. and to make some food.
05:23:33 <kmc> http://oi40.tinypic.com/25085ko.jpg i got this dialog from Golly while trying to open a file
05:23:52 <elliott> it wants to make sure you agree
05:24:12 <Sgeo> What fun can I have with an XP VM?
05:24:17 <Sgeo> Maybe a deltree?
05:24:22 <kmc> perverted fun
05:24:36 <Sgeo> bah "Deltree isn't present in Windows NT-based operating systems, including Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Server, Windows Vista and Windows 7."
05:26:44 <Sgeo> Might be fun to delete the filesystem out from under the OS's nose with another virtual OS
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05:41:11 <kmc> when I first installed Linux I somehow managed to have the Linux partition occupy the second half of the drive and the Windows partition occupy the first and second halves of the drive
05:42:10 <pikhq> That's pretty easy to do with the partition table, but how'd you get a partition table editor to do that?
05:43:43 <ion> kmc: I don’t see the problem. You got 50 % more disk space for free.
05:45:12 <kmc> pikhq: I don't know...
05:45:37 <kmc> anyway it meant Windows crashed frequently, which meant I learned more about how to do things in Linux, so it was probably a good thing
05:45:53 <Sgeo> sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root on Xubuntu is great
05:46:18 <shachaf> I remember the time when I tried to get the MBR to run GRUB rather than the Windows bootloader.
05:46:47 <shachaf> I reasoned "GRUB is on /dev/hda4, so I should just be able to dd if=/dev/hda4 of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=1"
05:47:08 <shachaf> But I made sure to put a backup of the old bootloader in my home directory first, so if anything went wrong I could just boot from a live CD and put it back.
05:48:21 <ion> Remember when “hda”?
05:48:22 <shachaf> It was a lot of trouble to get that working again...
05:48:46 <Bike> i remember when i tried to set up slackware and got confused by the manual using "hda" repeatedly.
05:49:33 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/3xmYoLh,7li30Mt,YM4Jwgv,cHWlrlx
05:50:07 <kmc> shachaf: why was it trouble? oh because you blew away the partition table?
05:50:20 <shachaf> So I couldn't mount my home directory and get the old MBR back.
05:50:26 <kmc> I think it would work with some number less than 512, and some values of "work" which might mean "break for other reasons"
05:50:28 <ion> sgeo: Nice. I haven’t seen that icon Trash got for a while.
05:50:38 <kmc> parted has a feature that will look for fs magic and rebuild your partition table based on that
05:52:39 <ion> ⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷⌷
05:53:06 <kmc> sounds right
05:53:08 <kmc> what are those ion
05:53:25 <ion> kmc: Oh, your font can’t display them? They are awesome.
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05:54:15 <kmc> i blame screen
05:54:19 <kmc> Bike: no u
05:54:38 <shachaf> kmc: The joke is that they're all 2337 APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL SQUISH QUAD [⌷]
05:55:19 <kmc> then why does the fifth one have some artifact at the bottom
05:55:23 <Sgeo> My question is, why does a dying OS display those?
05:55:31 <ion> kmc: http://imgur.com/3xmYoLh,7li30Mt,YM4Jwgv,cHWlrlx#2
05:55:46 <ion> sgeo: It can’t load the font and the font renderer uses that as a fallback.
05:56:02 <Sgeo> So how did the second image manage to have a font to display a part of that error?
05:56:13 <ion> That font was already loaded by the process.
05:56:34 <kmc> when did imgur urls get crazy
05:56:49 <shachaf> kmc: that's a five images in one url
05:56:52 <ion> Haven’t ad-hoc galleries always been like that?
05:57:08 <kmc> I didn't know that
05:57:57 <shachaf> They used to be slightly different.
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05:58:04 <shachaf> Without the #2 and the whole JavaScript bit.
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06:11:19 <madbr> "14) Any C source that fails to compile because of lines with trailing
06:11:19 <madbr> control-M's (i.e., lines with a tailing octet 015) will be rejected.
06:11:43 <madbr> does that mean only files UNIX end of lines are accepted?
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06:25:56 <madbr> "Any C source that fails to compile because of unescaped octets with
06:25:56 <madbr> | the high bit set (octet value >= 128) will be rejected.
06:26:39 <pikhq> There's compilers that care?
06:27:00 <Bike> is this for ioccc
06:27:06 <oerjan> madbr: i'd assume it means you cannot expect C source with ^M to compile on OS'es that don't use them
06:29:31 <Bike> they've gotten used to some crazy shit, huh
06:30:59 <madbr> oerjan : kindof curious about what kind of compiler would fit that description
06:32:16 <madbr> pretty sure gcc doesn't choke on crlf when run from linux
06:32:26 <madbr> except maybe in the makefile, can't remember
06:32:54 <madbr> or maybe it was in bash scripts
06:35:30 <Bike> http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/08/oregon-gop-art-robinson-nuclear-waste-airplanes Finally, someone with a plan.
06:36:59 <kmc> "Alas, this would be against the law."
06:40:15 <oerjan> gop art is like pop art, except crazier, right?
06:45:52 <ion> http://translate.google.fi/#fi/en/alas
06:49:30 <kmc> Bike: also he's an alum of my school, damnit
06:49:57 <oerjan> kmc: have you checked your sanity lately?
06:50:12 <kmc> not sure how to answer that question really
06:50:17 <kmc> if I am insane then my sanity check may not count
06:51:33 <Bike> kmc: lol, well he probably paid his way through or whatever
06:52:29 <kmc> or he's smart and good at chemistry or whatever and also completely crazy
06:52:32 <kmc> not unheard-of
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06:55:05 <kmc> i don't really think people paid their way through
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06:55:28 <kmc> if you wanted to do that you might want to pick a school that people have heard of (and not one that sounds like refrigerator repair school)
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06:57:29 <Bike> university of cali sounds like a fridge repair school?
06:57:55 <kmc> often (including by that article) misspelled Cal Tech
06:58:19 <kmc> Serge Lang was an AIDS denialist too
06:58:41 <kmc> oh and also a Caltech alum
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07:03:34 <kmc> a lot of people confuse it with Cal Poly
07:06:06 <kmc> shachaf: I finished reading the Smullyan book
07:07:20 <shachaf> kmc: is that a relationshipz joke
07:09:02 <shachaf> kmc: was the book as you expected
07:11:02 <kmc> shachaf: it wasn't such a joke but it did occur to me as I wrote it
07:13:47 <kmc> there weren't a lot of complicated relationship-arrangements at Caltech (that I knew of) because it was mostly straight guys
07:13:55 <kmc> of course it's possible I just wasn't invited
07:14:08 <kmc> shachaf: I think it was as expected, yes
07:14:15 <kmc> given that I'd already read "Is God a Taoist?"
07:14:21 <kmc> what do you think of the book shachaf
07:14:56 <shachaf> i thought it was delightful when i read it maybe 5 years ago
07:15:02 <kmc> Sgeo: did you send me a NOTICE earlier? i'm just confused by things my client displays
07:15:14 <kmc> it's fairly delightful yes
07:15:47 <Sgeo> kmc: yes I did
07:15:53 <kmc> parts were both delightful and aggravating at the same time which is a good trick I guess
07:16:07 <Gracenotes> it seems like the number of non-straight males and the number of women are correlated in university departments
07:16:32 <Gracenotes> CS and engineering more generally is well known for its ratios.
07:16:33 <kmc> shachaf: like, playing a lot of games with words to evade saying anything meaningful
07:17:17 <kmc> Gracenotes: I don't actually know about the percentage of non-straight guys in CS -- is it significantly different from overall population?
07:17:22 <kmc> of course definitions can be tricky
07:18:06 <kmc> shachaf: of course that kind of thing is par for the course with taoist and zen stuff
07:18:09 <kmc> but i dunno
07:18:44 <kmc> some of it was a bit "communicating poorly and then acting smug when misunderstood"
07:18:50 <kmc> (on the part of one party in a dialogue)
07:19:37 <kmc> also I can't really get on board with the glib anti-morality but that's only sort of one view on it, and at other times he seems to be a utilitarian who just dislikes moralists and wants people to be good intrinsically, which is fine
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07:19:50 <kmc> definitely the part that made me think the most was the stuff about doing good out of obligation vs. naturally
07:20:14 <kmc> but I also feel like my inner moralist hardass has pushed me towards better actions gradually
07:20:17 <kmc> but how would I know really
07:21:36 <Gracenotes> is there philosophy on the general notion of agency in life?
07:21:41 <Taneb> I would say doing good out of obligation is still good, because you can ignore most obligations
07:21:48 <Taneb> With enough willpower
07:22:16 <Gracenotes> not in a moral context, but action through inaction, etc.
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07:22:59 <kmc> Gracenotes: in this book? a bit
07:23:06 <kmc> in general I'm sure much has been written on the subject
07:23:39 <kmc> (The book in question is _The Tao is Silent_ by Raymond Smullyan, by the way)
07:23:47 <kmc> anyway it was worth reading for sure
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07:24:45 <shachaf> are you interested in reading another book of his
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07:39:15 <doesthiswork> a thing that turns ascii diagrams into bitmap graphics http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/
07:42:38 <kmc> that's really cool
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08:09:14 <shachaf> kmc: is there an asymmetric cryptography thing where they keys are "symmetrical"
08:09:33 <shachaf> i.e. knowing one lets you encrypt (or sign) things for the other to decrypt (or verify), but you can't derive one key from the other
08:10:58 <kmc> maybe you could do that with RSA if you pick a random e instead of using 3 or whatever
08:11:13 <kmc> sounds dangerous tho
08:12:28 * kmc -> afk tho
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08:16:11 <Sgeo> I think I was under the impression that normal public-private key crypto worked like that
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10:02:37 <kmc> Sgeo: it is true that RSA uses the same core mathematical operation for all of encryption, decryption, signing, verification
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10:03:37 <kmc> but this is not true of all public-key algorithms
10:03:54 <kmc> and the stuff you need to go from "core mathematical operation" to "secure cryptosystem" is different for each function
10:04:58 <kmc> and generally it's easy to derive one key from the other, because the encryption/signing exponent will be fixed to 3 or 65537
10:05:16 <kmc> and also Sgeo is probably asleep because it's like 5 AM there
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12:28:09 <asie> hi, asiekierka here
12:28:13 <asie> wow, i haven't been here for ages
12:40:56 <asie> Phantom_Hoover: what
12:45:09 <olsner> fungot: can you tell us what?
12:45:09 <fungot> olsner: everyone says,
12:45:35 <olsner> fungot: so I've noticed... maybe a better question is why?
12:45:35 <fungot> olsner: use these words as clues and go first! meet at the real world, just like you may think i'm a litte too uptight?
12:46:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:46:29 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
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16:14:59 <asie> http://paste.debian.net/26297/
16:15:02 <asie> fiddling with some random ideas
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16:24:34 <nooodl> asie: reminds me of golfscript
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16:38:39 <fizzie> "Call failed: Type of message, `(sisssasa(vv)i)', does not match expected type `(susssasa{sv}i)'"
16:38:45 <fizzie> Gotta love them dbus signatures.
16:39:11 <olsner> oh, I thought it was finnish
16:39:52 <fizzie> Also I don't know how to make a {sv} instead of (sv) using Haskell's DBus client.
16:42:42 <fizzie> I can make a (susssasa(sv)i) easily, but that's not quite close enough.
16:43:34 <fizzie> Maybe it maps a Haskell Map to a dictionary, then.
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16:54:55 <fizzie> Yay, "empty :: Map String DB.Variant" made a {sv}.
16:57:30 <fizzie> (It doesn't display a notification, though.)
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17:05:53 <fizzie> I don't the understand. I get something vaguely okay-looking as reply -- MethodReturn {methodReturnSerial = Serial 2, methodReturnSender = Just (BusName ":1.64"), methodReturnDestination = Just (BusName ":1.86"), methodReturnBody = [Variant 1]} -- but nothing happens.
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17:11:47 <fizzie> Hum. Apparently giving a replaces_id of an old notification does not open a new one, unlike what I thought.
17:17:34 <fizzie> I don't know how I'm supposed to do a "replace existing notification or create new" thing; I'd track it manually, but I can't know when the notification gets closed.
17:18:06 <fizzie> (I could force-close the old one when displaying a new one, but that'd defeat the purpose of flicker-free updating of an existing one.)
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18:07:49 <olsner> really? I don't think I've had that
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19:12:45 <Sgeo> The license for the Windows VMs confuses me (not that I care for personal use, but I do care for work use)
19:12:47 <Sgeo> "Youmayusethesoftwarefortestingpurposesonly.Youmaynotusethesoftwarefor
19:12:47 <Sgeo> commercialpurposes.Y"
19:13:10 <Sgeo> But if I use it at work, I'm using it for testing purposes and commercial purposes
19:13:22 <Sgeo> My testing with the software serves a commercial purpose
19:13:30 <AnotherTest> it clearly say "for testing purposes /only"
19:13:56 <AnotherTest> comercial purpose + testing purpose != testing purpose only
19:15:02 <Sgeo> Ugh kind of sucks that can't use MSN browser without subscription
19:15:04 <Sgeo> Used to be able to
19:18:36 <AnotherTest> it is generally advisable to stay a way from windows in my opinion
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19:41:06 <Gracenotes> what is a commercial purpose generally
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20:37:04 <Roujo> Commercial purpose: using it in a commerciakl
20:52:00 <Sgeo> Worth1000 is closing :(
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21:36:26 <Roujo> @tell zzo38 Oh hai
21:36:33 <Roujo> @tell Phantom_Hoover Oh hai
21:37:21 <Roujo> @tell * Well, that worked
21:37:31 <Roujo> @tell lambdabot I wonder if THIS does, though
21:40:56 <Roujo> Well, you wanted a message
21:42:01 <zzo38> I didn't say I wanted a message
21:43:26 <zzo38> I wrote on this paper, some more idea of spells/psionic power of Dungeons&Dragons game (this time, including the effect, too). See if it could be corrected a bit?
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22:17:57 <zzo38> I didn't put it into the computer yet!
22:35:18 <^v> irc bot in malbolge = win?
22:36:15 <kmc> what's the most complicated extant program in malbolge
22:36:22 <Bike> 99 beers, maybe
22:39:08 <kmc> edward 40 hands
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22:40:23 <^v> calculating sqare roots
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22:57:00 <ion> kmc: edwardk?
22:59:48 <oerjan> <kmc> maybe you could do that with RSA if you pick a random e instead of using 3 or whatever <-- i always thought that worked, it would be pretty strange if choosing something other than 3 made the corresponding key easier to find in general, but maybe it depends.
23:00:30 <^v> 3 is the lowest though
23:00:36 <^v> and can be cracked in miliseconds
23:00:45 <Bike> how many milliseconds
23:00:57 <^v> depends on the computer :P
23:01:44 <oerjan> in fact here's an argument it cannot be easier for more than half of them: simply choose a random r and then try to crack both that and 3/r (mod phi(n) or thereabouts); if you can crack both, you've also cracked 3. i think. maybe.
23:05:42 <oerjan> because the multiple of the corresponding keys for r and 3/r is a key corresponding to 3, if i'm not thinking wrong.
23:16:07 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> almost certainly <-- i dunno, who knows what those japanese have been doing without telling us gaijins
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00:29:34 <ion> Finished System Shock 2.
00:37:45 <kmc> that game rules
00:38:01 <kmc> if you liked it you should play Deus Ex too
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01:17:18 <Sgeo> "DO NOT EDIT YOUR REGISTRY!
01:17:18 <Sgeo> Thats the worst thing to do to windows. It will eventually mess itself up and there will be an exploit for spyware. "
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01:18:11 <Sgeo> I want a fun way to wreck Windows XP
01:20:55 <Sgeo> deltree doesn't exist in WinXP, and I tried an equivalent and it was somewhat boring
01:21:13 <Bike> take the case and just smash it up with a hammer
01:21:15 <Bike> just fucking smash it
01:21:23 <pikhq> P. sure it's a VM.
01:21:31 <Bike> who cares smash it
01:21:53 <Bike> right in the fucking drive motherfucker
01:22:10 <pikhq> Boot two or three instances of the VM using the same filesystem image.
01:22:25 <oerjan> i sense a market for a vm with a smash button hth
01:22:27 <pikhq> So they mutate the FS and each other one is unaware of it.
01:22:39 <Sgeo> I think that would require taking the filesystem image and making it take up real space on my HD
01:22:44 <Sgeo> At least in VirtualBox
01:22:48 <Sgeo> But that does sound fun
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01:30:53 <Sgeo> Someone said that NT actually supports that, pikhq
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01:53:07 <Sgeo> Ooh I could try a fork bomb
02:05:58 <doesthiswork> dijkstra is an excellent blogger; "But such co-operation is of course based on the theory that, when you tie two stones together, the combination will float."
02:11:54 <Sgeo> Ooh I know how I can delete system files while the VM is off
02:15:51 <Sgeo> Windows XP seems to tolerate exploer.exe not existing surprisingly well
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02:16:34 <^v> Sgeo, yeah?
02:16:39 <^v> it can be corrupt
02:16:51 <Sgeo> Takes a bit of time at the login thing, then boots into just the wallpaper being visible
02:16:53 <^v> nothing will happen, you will just have to use cmd
02:17:07 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Alt-Del works just fine, so could start programs like that
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03:13:29 <Sgeo> I miss Microsoft Ants
03:14:51 <Bike> sgeo do you ever feel nostalgic for things that were actually good
03:16:38 <Sgeo> I think most of the things that I feel nostalgic for that you might consider good still exist
03:17:30 <Sgeo> Mutation was good, I feel nostalgic for it, it no longer exists.
03:18:04 <oerjan> mutation could not escape changing
03:36:23 <tswett> doesthiswork: what's the two-stones-float quote from?
03:36:46 <tswett> I just think it's so *weird* how "Frosted Flakes" isn't a trademark.
03:36:53 <tswett> Anyone can make a cereal and call it Frosted Flakes.
03:37:08 <tswett> You can't make a hat and call it Frosted Flakes, because Kellogg's owns the trademark on Frosted Flakes brand hats.
03:37:22 <tswett> But not for Frosted Flakes cereal; that's public domain.
03:37:48 <Bike> is wearing cereal as a hat trademarked?
03:37:52 <tswett> There's a trademark for "Kellogg's Frosted Flakes". But if you look it up, it specifically says that "no claim is made to the exclusive right to use 'Frosted Flakes'".
03:38:19 <tswett> Bike: I doubt it, but it could be!
03:38:38 <tswett> You could make and sell little figurines wearing cereal as a hat, and then file a trademark for wearing cereal as a hat.
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03:41:28 <tswett> I'm actually kind of surprised that Kellogg's doesn't have a trademark for something like "the words 'Frosted Flakes' in white on a blue background".
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03:47:58 <tswett> Something I really like about trademark law: in order for a company to retain the exclusive rights to a trademark even when it's being used generically (e.g. "photoshopped"), the company has to "visibly and actively seem to attempt" to get people to stop using it generically.
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03:48:14 <tswett> It doesn't matter whether they succeed or not. All that's required is that they look like they're trying.
03:48:35 <Bike> what's the point of maintaining a genericized trademark
03:49:13 <tswett> I guess the word "Photoshop" is still a completely valid trademark; it's still illegal for anyone else to make software called Photoshop.
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04:06:31 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296158
04:08:34 * Bike skips to latest strip. evil dwarf ok
04:20:21 <oerjan> Bike: bad move, the link was about the _first_ strip hth
04:30:10 <kmc> ESSID:"LA_face_OAK_booty" // in Oakland
04:32:09 <kmc> also OH: "I have a dumbphone whose IMEI is all zeroes"
04:59:12 -!- kmc has set topic: Amor vincit omnia | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
05:02:42 <Bike> i ain't gettin this latin shite
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05:14:01 <oerjan> wat and i checked just an hour ago
05:14:34 <oerjan> Bike: you should be able to get it with enough love hth
05:16:31 <oerjan> fungot: you seem to be the only reliable bot here
05:16:31 <fungot> oerjan:, so i'd have to consider that although the reduction in actual transportation section from former friend lives, their door had my computer with full u+ support" then they both bowed low. just keep the safe or tub and emptied it
05:17:11 <shachaf> oerjan: What, I'm not reliable?
05:17:38 <oerjan> Gregor: your bots have croaked hth
05:18:17 <oerjan> shachaf: there might be another way in which you don't fit that sentence hth
05:18:31 <shachaf> aristophanes: your frogs have croaked hth
05:18:39 <shachaf> oerjan: are you suggesting that i'm not here
05:18:43 <shachaf> p. sure you'll find that i am
05:21:03 <oerjan> also why does belkar call varsuuvius "she" tdnh
05:21:39 <shachaf> what else would he call her hth
05:32:54 <shachaf> Does Salt Lake City count as south?
05:33:26 <shachaf> Inside the airport? Not all that much, I think.
05:35:34 <Gracenotes> I think I know some people from there?
05:36:31 <Gracenotes> yeah... I don't plan on going to Utah ever
05:39:23 <Gracenotes> I tend to observe trends for places for native people advising for or against going there
05:40:33 <Gracenotes> Though if my sampling was actually uniform, I would probably get a better rate for many places
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06:09:48 <Sgeo> I want to write a Python script, but the script would be incredibly dangerous to run by accident.
06:10:05 <kmc> make it require -f
06:10:07 <kmc> also hi Sgeo
06:11:55 <Sgeo> I could check if I'm on Windows 8 and if so abort
06:12:09 <Bike> this sounds like an exciting script
06:13:18 <Sgeo> It will attempt to delete every entry in the Registry recursively
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06:45:43 <Sgeo> shachaf: oerjan
06:45:52 <Sgeo> FreeFull: I think?
06:46:04 <Sgeo> I blame HackEgo
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07:06:49 <Sgeo> I thought that you were making a joke
07:07:05 <Sgeo> Cygwin does actually expose a /proc/registry
07:07:18 <Bike> `thanks cygwin
07:07:30 <Gracenotes> er. yes. that's what I meant. also, really.
07:08:36 <Gracenotes> although like much of rest of real-/proc, it seems to be readonly
07:10:59 <Gracenotes> also, did you know that it is not possible to use the internet and also be libertarian. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-plea-to-learn-more-about-bezoss-personal-politics/2013/08/15/27164286-05e7-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html
07:11:36 <Bike> why is everyone freaking out about bezos now. the post was always shit
07:11:57 <Bike> as evidenced by this article, no less
07:12:54 <Gracenotes> yeah, I dunno for the most part, I find the argument here conservative and little else; we'll see.
07:13:29 <Bike> there are certainly better arguments to be made against libertarianism than "lol cold war"
07:14:18 <Bike> but that's the level of discourse, i guess
07:14:55 <Gracenotes> hm, the cold war was pretty good for science, we should definitely bring that back
07:18:04 <Gracenotes> while I'm linking... my Google News comes up with interesting things sometimes. http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/content.php?14106-Drzewiecki-Design-New-York-City-X-v1-1-Released
07:18:18 <Gracenotes> of note, in v1.1, "It will enhance the performance of the product, by optimizing the Virtual Address Space memory usage."
07:19:56 <Gracenotes> "Extras like people, wave effects, custom car traffic, ships and boats, cranes, hundrieds of fuel storage tanks, various library objects etc."
07:22:10 <Gracenotes> not real engineers, software engineers.
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08:09:05 <zzo38> In this book of philosophy they discuss various philosophical problems.
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08:40:05 <kmc> hi shachaf
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09:37:37 <Vorpal> Interesting, transfer speed over ssh to my phone maxes out at around 2.4 MB/s (from phone), but if I do several logins in parallel to my phone it seems each connection (up to a max of 4) maxes out at 2.4 MB/s. This would imply that it is in some way CPU bound (since it has 4 CPU cores).
09:39:36 <Jafet> Since you have an ssh, you could run top
10:01:17 <kmc> hi shachaf
10:01:46 <kmc> an interstellar burst, you're back to save the universe
10:02:39 <shachaf> my flight ended up landing at 1:something instead of 23
10:03:16 <kmc> did you get home?
10:03:43 <kmc> what do you think of air travel
10:03:55 <zzo38> If God told you to sacrifice your child at the top of the mountain, would you do so?
10:04:27 <shachaf> kmc: not a big fan but the alternatives are often worse
10:04:41 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not sure. It could be any one, I suppose.
10:05:04 <kmc> zzo38: I don't have a child so I don't think I can know
10:05:28 <kmc> should i have a child
10:05:32 <kmc> seems like a pretty bad move
10:05:40 <zzo38> Probably you shouldn't.
10:05:46 <shachaf> bad moves make good movies hth
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10:06:16 <shachaf> seems like a pretty good move
10:07:04 <kmc> you should move to san francisco
10:07:11 <shachaf> kmc: was that a hi with a purpose or just a hi
10:07:12 <zzo38> When are a bunch of stages to be considered parts of the same continuing object? (ex. a solid beeswax melting, a person growing up to be adult, etc)
10:07:22 <kmc> i'm not sure
10:07:51 <zzo38> This book gives one possible answer which is pretty long, but I have a simpler answer. My answer is: Always.
10:08:59 <kmc> zzo38: you have the buddha nature
10:09:33 <zzo38> kmc: I have been told similar things before. (I am not 100% sure of it, though.)
10:09:46 <kmc> as well you shouldn't be!
10:11:00 <kmc> Gracenotes: what will you do in SF?
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10:14:56 <zzo38> One thing this book says, is, if you have two completely identical pennies including location and so on. Is there still two pennies? They didn't answer this, but I think for one thing it will have twice the mass of a single penny. There is also other laws of physics preventing it from working.
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10:20:50 <Gracenotes> kmc: if I go, probably lunch with someone from NY, but dunno after
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10:25:33 <shachaf> Gracenotes: should i get a haircut tomorrow
10:30:07 <Gracenotes> well, I do meet a bunch of people whose haircut on their badge does not match that on their head
10:30:41 <shachaf> by tomorrow i meant today i suppose
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11:08:46 <zzo38> Have you come up with the idea of quantum immortality independently?
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15:38:52 <fizzie> Hrm. I've been trying to stick an Emacs on the Windows system I have here, but no matter what I do w.r.t. font selection (elisp set-face-attribute 'default, or the Options/Set default font customize-driven thing) and which font I select, it just says 'Invalid font name: "-outline-SimSun-ExtB-normal-normal-normal-mono-13-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1"'.
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16:40:39 <Sgeo> ...is Down to Earth offline permanently? :)
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18:16:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, imagine if Notch made a brainfuck derivative
18:17:46 <Taneb> Neither have I watched Farscape
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18:18:21 <Taneb> Anyway, I must be off
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18:19:25 <shachaf> kmc: i brought the mölkky back with me hth
18:21:49 <Koen_> is that the weird wooden petanque
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19:31:38 <Bike> http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2013/08/13/alleged-data-manipulation-in-nano-letters-and-acs-nano-from-the-pease-group/ 9000 hours in ms paint.
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21:51:37 <kmc> http://jerkcity.com/_jerkcity386.html
21:52:06 <Taneb> kmc, my ISP is claiming that that is pornography and thus I cannot access it
21:52:14 <Bike> your isp is right on the mark
21:52:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yep
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21:52:39 <Bike> oh. wait. yeah, that's weird
21:53:11 <Bike> you uk people. i heard about greenwald's partner too. glad i live in a nation of free dom unlike you
21:55:59 <Taneb> Of course, I know the password, so I could change the setting
21:56:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I enjoy my rare moments of grumpiness, allow me to relish it
21:56:56 <kmc> is this the UK pornofilter
21:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i still can't quite believe that they will, it seems that cynical and posturing
21:57:32 <kmc> anyway calling jerkcity pornography is uh... well I guess everything is pornography to someone
21:57:41 <Taneb> The UK pornofilter was basically "keep doing what you're doing, just now the government gets the credit"
21:57:51 <Taneb> Plus a whole load of misinformation
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21:58:43 <fizzie> What, it's some sort of a thing to make songs with Minecraft note blocks and upload videos of them in YouTube?
21:58:46 <fizzie> (In retrospect, I have no idea why that'd be surprising at all.)
21:59:01 <Bike> blugh, logs down again
21:59:29 <elliott> Taneb: no, only talktalk had that kind of opt-in porn filter (afaik)
21:59:42 <elliott> the plan was to mandatorily extend it to everyone else too
22:00:28 <Bike> kmc: to be fair,it is titled "watch me jerk off"
22:00:42 <Bike> (#esoteric is now porn)
22:03:47 <kmc> Bike: your link re: photoshopped science led me to http://tocrofl.tumblr.com/
22:04:39 <Bike> oh good, i was considering making a tumblr for silly science things due to "The writer must admit that he has had no introspections from rabbits to justify this conclusion" in a footnote
22:05:34 <Bike> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ol401012u welp
22:06:56 <^v> kmc: gotta love that hot filimant
22:07:39 -!- asie has joined.
22:08:21 <Bike> "The human brain, with its three-dimensional evolution history, often finds it difficult to visualize 2N -dimensional spin system trajectories, particularly for large values of N and especially on Fridays." ain't that the truth
22:11:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: Amor vincit somnia | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
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23:49:26 <kmc> http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/sup-talk/2013-August/004993.html remote command injection via email attachment filename
23:50:01 <Bike> Wait, pipermail is email. Are you trying to heck me, kmc.
23:51:50 <Bike> i wonder what percentage of vulnerabilities are due to shell's weird semantics when you consider it as a programming language
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14:37:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: recursion: not found
14:37:21 <HackEgo> cat: cat: No such file or directory
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14:38:29 <boily> Roujo: t'es soit Linteau, Mousehunt, Rouillard ou Vermette.
14:38:39 <Roujo> Regarde mon nom et guesse =P
14:39:01 <boily> eh, pas de ma faute! c'est dans la liste!
14:39:48 <Roujo> Looks like Cloj made an alternate account when he was banned from Mousehunt =P
14:43:22 <Roujo> I figured that there couldn't be THAT many Boilys with a passion for boardgames =P
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14:47:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: netsplit: not found
14:57:39 <Roujo> `relcome Serendipity
14:57:42 <HackEgo> Serendipity: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:14:37 <nooodl> boily: Roujo: so is this the new hexham
15:15:44 <Roujo> nooodl: I don't know. What *was* hexham - I haven't yet been privy to that information
15:16:32 <nooodl> two #esoteric members (Taneb and elliott) turned out to live in the same 10000-people town
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15:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott and Taneb are both from there and arrived here completely independently
15:16:54 <Taneb> We haven't even met
15:16:54 <Roujo> Nah, there are like 1 or 2 million people here
15:17:09 <Roujo> Aren't you forbidden from meeting, though?
15:17:45 <Bike> > 1000000 / 7000000000
15:17:52 <Bike> "so, really, what are the chances!"
15:18:33 <Roujo> Having two Montrealers here is more likely, BUT
15:18:52 <Roujo> boily is the brother of one of my friends
15:19:02 <Roujo> So... I don't know if *that* evens out the odds
15:19:06 <Roujo> "Evening the odds"
15:19:15 <Roujo> That's an odd thing to say =P
15:20:05 <Taneb> Well, it is an odd evening
15:20:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got bad news
15:20:32 <Taneb> At the end of September/beginning of October I'm leaving Hexham
15:20:50 <Bike> will you be allowed to meet elliott then
15:21:14 <Taneb> I am moving to York where I shall be attending university
15:22:06 <Taneb> Since about the same time Birmingham and Loughborough were
15:22:31 <Taneb> It's in the midlands
15:22:43 <Bike> sounds too british to be real imo
15:22:48 <Bike> good job not choosing it
15:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> you ruined the dream of the midlands as a new centre of esolanging
15:23:05 <Taneb> I decided that there were already too many esolangers in the West Midlands and not enough in Yorkshire
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15:24:16 <Taneb> btw, Loughborough is totally pronounced "Loobaroo". If anyone says anything else, they are wrong.
15:29:09 <Jafet> Further more increasingly
15:32:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, shh don't tell them
15:42:43 <fizzie> Are the people who live there called "Loobies," then?
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15:56:29 <boily> back from a very enterprisey meeting.
15:57:02 <Bike> did you leverage enough paradigms
15:57:16 <boily> no, but we're going to monetize synergy.
15:57:42 <boily> (seriously. two clients have very similar aims, so they're going to split the bill between themselves and receive de same product.)
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16:00:56 <AnotherTest> do you mean: we're going to monetize the thing called synergy or
16:04:06 <Roujo> The company I work for is called iSynergy
16:04:12 <Roujo> Take from that what you will
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16:09:18 <Roujo> But Roujo's friend's brother = boily
16:11:12 <Bike> boily: haha nice
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16:19:53 <AnotherTest> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at?
16:21:18 <Roujo> Sure, let's go with that
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16:23:43 <Roujo> Pretty ambiguously
16:23:49 <Roujo> Although I'm not sure
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16:58:17 <boily> ambiguity is good, and highly regarded in this channel.
16:59:01 <boily> `learn boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that.
17:00:45 <boily> I think the brother pointer indirection is a little bit off, but for `? that'll do.
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17:02:31 <tswett> macro (->) :: [d, ~f |- a -> Done] => [e, f |- b] => [d, e |- a -> b]
17:03:51 <Bike> http://www.altmetric.com/details.php?domain=www.cell.com&citation_id=997561 huh, altmetric is a weird thing
17:03:59 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:04:41 <tswett> "The macro '->' is used with an expression that has type 'a -> Done' in context 'd, ~f' and an expression that has type 'b' in context 'e, f' to form an expression that has type 'a -> b' in context 'd, e'."
17:05:13 <Roujo> assert(boily->brother->brother == Roujo)
17:05:37 <Roujo> git commit sepukku
17:05:38 <Bike> wait's and see's
17:06:47 <tswett> "Macro" is a bit of a misnomer here, since -> doesn't expand to anything.
17:06:54 -!- ^v has joined.
17:07:07 <zzo38> Maybe it doesn't have to be such a simple kind of macro though?
17:07:23 <tswett> But it has a macrotype signature.
17:07:30 <tswett> Right, you could define actual macros along these lines.
17:09:13 <tswett> macro myLet :: [~d |- a -> Done] => [e |- a] => [d |- b] => [e |- b]
17:09:18 -!- nortti has changed nick to hjdicks.
17:09:36 <tswett> myLet \x 5 (x + 3) -- evaluates to 8
17:10:02 <tswett> I guess the definition would just be this: myLet a b c = (a -> c) b
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17:10:28 <Bike> why does that make sense to me.
17:10:38 <tswett> It's kind of supposed to.
17:11:00 <Bike> well the type still doesn't
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17:14:08 <boily> Roujo: uhm. I think it's assert(boily->brother->friend == Roujo).
17:14:41 <Bike> boily: are you seriously disputing `?
17:14:57 <Bike> boily: you are sick. sick
17:15:37 <boily> it is a serious matter, of capital international importance.
17:15:58 <Bike> '`?' has never been wrong before
17:16:13 <quintopia> less matter, more phase transition of matter
17:16:28 <boily> Bike: stop being like me. it's disturbing.
17:17:01 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
17:17:05 <boily> `run echo "HackEgo is always right" >wisdom/right
17:17:09 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
17:17:17 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:17:23 <HackEgo> bash: freedom: command not found
17:17:33 <tswett> `? hey HackEgo do something that shows that you know what you're talking about
17:17:35 <HackEgo> hey HackEgo do something that shows that you know what you're talking about? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:17:39 <Roujo> `run touch wisdom/right
17:18:22 <Roujo> `run cat dog wisdom/right
17:18:28 <Roujo> `run cat dog > wisdom/right
17:18:54 <HackEgo> bash: forkbomb.sh: command not found
17:19:01 <tswett> `learn red A synonym of "five".
17:19:28 <Roujo> On a scale of "lol" to "ban", how encouraged is bot abuse?
17:19:38 <tswett> Roujo: "lol", I think.
17:19:40 <boily> tswett: red, as in the mahjong tiles?
17:19:54 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `run': No such file or directory
17:20:03 <boily> `run chmod -x bin/run
17:20:05 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `bin/run': No such file or directory
17:20:12 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:20:24 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
17:20:27 <tswett> run just isn't a command.
17:20:44 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fueue.c \ ul.emm
17:20:46 * boily dons a pair of sunglasses to shield himself from Roujo's sudden illumination
17:21:11 <HackEgo> cat: god/god: Not a directory
17:21:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30459 \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/fd: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/fdinfo: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/ns: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/task/1/fd: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory
17:21:40 <HackEgo> bash: god: command not found
17:21:47 <Roujo> Oh, we can't edit the source from inside it, right?
17:22:03 <HackEgo> bash: skynet: command not found
17:22:09 <tswett> Roujo: the source code of the bot engine thing? Yeah, pretty sure no.
17:22:19 <Roujo> That would be nice =P
17:22:38 <kmc> the software is called UMLBox and it's open source, but you can't edit the copy that powers HackEgo
17:22:52 <Roujo> Imagine if you could, though. From HackEgo itself.
17:23:00 <Roujo> What could possibly go wrong
17:23:25 <tswett> So yeah. HackEgo has a lot of files.
17:23:42 <Roujo> `run echo Woof > dog
17:23:43 <fizzie> fungot can be edited from the inside, but only by its master.
17:23:43 <fungot> fizzie:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human... :) apparently i was wrong a while ago
17:23:50 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sb
17:23:56 <fizzie> I've done a couple of "live" bugfixes.
17:24:02 <fizzie> Even managed to not mess up once.
17:24:31 <Roujo> fizzie: Nice stuff =)
17:24:48 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 2 \ 275 \ 279 \ 280 \ 281 \ 282 \ 283 \ 284 \ 285 \ 286 \ 3 \ 4 \ 45 \ 47 \ 5 \ 6 \ 64 \ 7 \ 70 \ 71 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kp
17:24:51 <boily> speaking of masters, I bought the first box of Tanto Cuore this weekend. yes, I am ashamed of myself.
17:25:08 <fizzie> It's not really be design, it's just that it has a raw-code execution command, and Befunge is so self-modificatory.
17:25:14 <Roujo> Oli would be proud =P
17:27:08 <fizzie> Oh, ^code uses SUBR? I didn't remember that.
17:27:11 <tswett> `cat /proc/285/cmdline
17:27:12 <fizzie> I guess it was easier.
17:27:13 <boily> Roujo: I also scored myself the travel version of Hive with bonus pieces (an excellent strategy game), and a box of The Price is Right (free giveaway that is going to end up at tonight's Douteux auction).
17:27:32 <tswett> Mind if I keep running that command over and over until it yields something different?
17:27:33 <Roujo> I'm not really into board games, though
17:27:33 <tswett> `cat /proc/285/cmdline
17:27:36 <tswett> `cat /proc/285/cmdline
17:27:41 <Roujo> So I have no idea what you're talking about
17:27:53 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/285: Is a directory
17:27:58 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/285/*: No such file or directory
17:28:00 <tswett> `sed /proc/285/cmdline
17:28:01 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: unknown command: `2'
17:28:08 <boily> Roujo: there's a first time to everything! it's never too late or early to succumb to the glorious temptation of boardgaming :D
17:28:13 <tswett> `run sed < /proc/285/cmdline
17:28:14 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
17:28:29 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
17:28:29 <Gregor> Just what the heck are you trying to accomplish here ._o
17:28:54 <tswett> Gregor: me? I'm trying to predict what process our IRC commands run as.
17:29:12 <tswett> It looks like maybe it's always process 285 for some reason.
17:29:14 <Roujo> `run sed /proc/285/cmdline s/sed/des/g > dog
17:29:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: unknown command: `2'
17:29:29 <Gregor> tswett: There's no randomness in it, so I'm not sure why it would be inconsistent.
17:29:47 <Gregor> Evidently the setup runs exactly 282 tasks.
17:29:47 <fizzie> (I suppose whatever you run under it will be 285.)
17:30:04 <tswett> `run sed 's///' < /proc/285/cmdline
17:30:05 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression
17:30:15 <Roujo> `run echo echo run > run
17:30:22 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:30:29 <olsner> `run sed p < /proc/285/cmdline
17:30:34 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:30:42 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ run \ share \ src \ wisdom
17:30:46 <tswett> Gregor: so uh... are *all processes* started up and then killed every time an IRC command is run?
17:30:54 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:30:59 <Bike> Roujo: the home directory isn't in $PATH i don't think
17:31:01 <HackEgo> bash: hackenv/run: No such file or directory
17:31:08 <Gregor> tswett: Given how long HackEgo's been around, I find it shocking that you don't know how it works.
17:31:18 <kmc> each command boots a fresh Linux VM
17:31:22 <tswett> Gregor: I am so sorry.
17:31:25 <kmc> for liberal meanings of 'fresh' and 'VM'
17:31:29 <kmc> and 'boots'
17:31:34 <Bike> kmc: btw did you see my link to my bloge
17:31:42 <kmc> the filesystem changes are merged afterward with Mercurial
17:31:47 <kmc> olsner: probably not that one
17:31:52 <kmc> UML is in-tree
17:31:52 <Roujo> `run export PATH=$PATH:~
17:31:56 <Bike> it's like a doge
17:31:58 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:32:03 <kmc> Bike: the thing about... uh, animals and engineers and stuff?
17:32:06 <fizzie> kmc: Are you saying it's some sort of non-liberal fascist Linux?
17:32:14 <tswett> `run echo `cat /proc/285/cmdline`
17:32:14 <Bike> just wondering is all, it's not important
17:32:15 <HackEgo> bash-cecho `cat /proc/285/cmdline`
17:32:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
17:32:20 <olsner> fizzie: pure communist open-source linux
17:32:26 <tswett> What the heck is bash-cecho?
17:32:28 <kmc> Bike: I saw it, seemed reasonable, wasn't sure exactly why you linked it to me... maybe I should read the paper and not just the bit you quoted
17:32:30 <boily> I think Friday subtly shifted into Monday, and had an evil dæmonic offspring that is happening at this very moment...
17:32:31 <HackEgo> cp: cannot create regular file `/bin/run': Read-only file system
17:32:38 <Roujo> `run cp run /hackenv/bin
17:32:41 <fizzie> tswett: "bash" "-c" "echo" with no spaces.
17:32:44 <olsner> boily: some weeks friday comes early
17:32:51 <tswett> fizzie: where'd the spaces go?
17:33:01 <fizzie> tswett: There are no spaces in /proc/pid/cmdline.
17:33:03 <Bike> kmc: just because i thought it was a nicer use of biological/computer analogies than "DNA is digital", plus generally because i thought it was cool
17:33:15 <tswett> fizzie: well, why not? }:|
17:33:19 <fizzie> `run echo `cat -v /proc/285/cmdline`
17:33:20 <HackEgo> bash^@-c^@echo `cat -v /proc/285/cmdline`^@
17:33:29 <fizzie> Because they're separated by '\0's.
17:33:41 <fizzie> (The individual arguments, that is.)
17:33:51 <kmc> DNA is digital though
17:34:10 <kmc> you'll never get me to stop pointing that out ;)
17:34:13 <zzo38> Well OK I suppose it is digital
17:34:17 <Bike> well you're still right.
17:34:37 <kmc> and some of the advantages of digital information storage are very important to both biological and computer systems
17:34:37 <Bike> doesn't mean i'm ever going to stop complaining about people calling it "the programming language of the body" or whatever~
17:34:54 <kmc> did you read that part of GEB where hofstadter says a bunch of stuff like that
17:34:58 <kmc> I bet it would piss you off a lot
17:35:03 <Bike> i did but i don't remember it
17:35:06 <kmc> so if you want to be pissed off a lot by a book, go read that hth
17:35:24 <HackEgo> ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ cats \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ gccrun \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesge
17:35:25 <Bike> and i do like that my mutations haven't killed me yet due to error-correcting-code-esque properties of transcription
17:35:29 <Bike> good stuff, imo
17:36:13 <Bike> i dunno how much angrier i can be at GEB really, i already had my eyes roll out of my head at the zen stuff
17:36:23 <kmc> goooooooooood shit man *puff* *puff*
17:36:36 <kmc> I think Zen is beyond ridicule because it so comprehensively ridicules itself
17:36:47 <zzo38> Why can your eyes roll out of your head at the Zen stuff?
17:36:49 <kmc> good trick
17:36:52 <Bike> i know a pretty hardcore buddhist who doesn't know shit about zen, it's great to see her get questions about it. "I DON'T FUCKING KNOW, JESUS CHRIST YOU HIPPIES"
17:37:15 <kmc> itt rants against hippies
17:37:30 <Bike> zzo38: general (western person twisting buddhism to fit their preconceptions)-ness
17:37:31 <kmc> there is a big rant against hippies in the big mushroom guide that my girlfriend got
17:37:43 <olsner> Bike: sounds like she ought to be more zen about questions about zen
17:37:47 <Bike> i mean, it's not as bad as the beatniks or anything
17:38:02 <kmc> which concludes with basically "btw if you want to trip that's fine just don't ask me stupid questions about fungi"
17:38:20 <Bike> "in that chapter we're going to cover psychoactive drugs, which is usually a fun topic" how appropriate, prof
17:39:12 <kmc> our awful intro-bio-for-non-bio-majors class was called "Drugs and the Brain"
17:39:16 <kmc> less interesting than you might think
17:39:29 <kmc> no practicum component
17:39:36 <Bike> endocannabinoid system ftw
17:39:51 <kmc> Bike I need to learn about the subjective difference between THC and CBD intoxication
17:40:27 <Bike> cross publish your trip report on silk road and the journal of experimental biology
17:40:39 -!- asie has joined.
17:40:40 <Bike> er, erwid, that's what i'ts called
17:41:06 <Bike> and JEB doesn't really cover human experience either but whatever
17:41:17 <kmc> i wonder how often david nichols's grad students have random people ask them for experimental hallucinogens
17:41:37 <kmc> and i also wonder what their parties are like
17:41:42 <Bike> it just occured to me that you could seriously publish a trip report in a serious anthropology journal
17:41:52 <Bike> best science? maybe
17:42:25 <kmc> i knew a friend of a friend who was a grad student (not for nichols) and said their strategy was basically "synthesize drug, take drug, see what drug does, figure out how to reproduce in rats so it's publishable"
17:42:44 <Bike> intelligent drug design
17:44:15 <kmc> there must be a lot of really interesting psychedelic drugs that are as yet undiscovered
17:44:54 <Bike> probably... i don't think pharmacology is far along enough yet that we can work out how stuff works, honestly :/
17:45:15 <kmc> like, among all the known phenethylamines and tryptamines, there's a single drug with a strong specific effect on auditory processing
17:45:26 <kmc> (diisopropyl tryptamine aka DiPT)
17:45:27 <Bike> heh i immediately thought of that too
17:45:50 <Bike> i wonder if i could get into working on physiological optics and then figure out how optical hallucinogens work, heh
17:45:56 <kmc> so I dunno what this would be like if psychedelics got the same amount of study as boner pills
17:46:10 <kmc> haha well a friend of mine did some research on that
17:46:41 <kmc> made a model of wave propagation in V1 neurons and then compared the result to known hallucination patterns
17:46:52 <kmc> it's polar mapped so you get either concentric circles or radial lines
17:46:55 <Bike> the book on vision i'm reading does get pretty "have you ever really looked at your hands" at points
17:47:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
17:47:34 <Bike> wow the professor just said biopsychology and behavioral neuroscience are the same thing. wow dude. wow
17:49:26 <Bike> "Fiberoptic control of motion in Chr2 mouse" good recovery.
17:50:38 <Bike> oh hey! one of the labs here is doing research on pain treatment with THC and opiates.
17:51:58 <boily> the only time I was on opiates was a very interesting experience.
17:52:52 <Bike> http://blinkdb.org/ anyway, cool computer thing.
17:58:58 <AnotherTest> What is the fastest algorithm to find two equal values in an unsorted (and for that matter, unstortable) sequence of values?
17:59:26 <AnotherTest> (assuming nothing can be assumed about the values in the sequence)
17:59:29 <Bike> what the hell does "unsortable" mean (i have no idea though)
18:00:50 <Roujo> Can you put the whole thing in memory? =P
18:03:01 <boily> unsortable, as in your values do not form a poset?
18:04:33 <AnotherTest> Roujo: depends on how many memory you have. Probably not though. Maybe if you invented an architecture using 2048 bits as address size
18:04:47 <Roujo> AnotherTest: That can be arranged
18:05:03 <oklopol> unsortable = the algorithm T must be such that, for any turing machine M, for large enough n, on input lists of size n, M takes at least time O(n log n) to compute the sorted version of the input from any internal state encountered during the run of T or does not compute it.
18:05:09 <AnotherTest> (and if you have enough memory to use up all those addresses)
18:05:12 <Roujo> You're looking for ANY two equal values, right?
18:05:16 -!- Bike_ has joined.
18:05:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:05:54 <Roujo> Alright, here's what I would do
18:05:58 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:06:09 <oklopol> but anyway, perhaps you can formalize things like "write an algorithm that does X without doing Y" like this
18:07:21 <AnotherTest> oklopol: well, it might be sortable. But I only need to find the value once, so I don't think there is little point. I also need the indexes of the two equal elements, however those change after sorting.
18:08:13 * boily is listening to a jazz album that features slightly disturbing samples of farm animals...
18:09:22 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: If it's unsorted then I see it as worst case O(n²)
18:09:37 <FreeFull> And the only thing you can do is brute force
18:09:59 <Bike> i can't think of anything that wouldn't be the obvious n² one
18:10:13 <FreeFull> Bike: that's because there isn't anything
18:10:37 <Bike> don't be so pessimistic. remember grover's algorithm.
18:11:35 <Roujo> I'd be tempted to only match the first bytes at first to speed things up
18:11:48 <Roujo> Although I have no idea if I'd save anything in the end
18:11:59 <AnotherTest> FreeFull: isn't there some crazy algorithm that will solve everything automagically :(?
18:12:09 <FreeFull> Bike: That's only for quantum computers though
18:12:27 <boily> AnotherTest: swapping the current universe for one that has already solved the problem.
18:12:43 <AnotherTest> boily: what about... building a quantum computer
18:12:48 <Roujo> Snowflake Algorithm: return false;
18:12:57 <quintopia> 1) check if the problem is solved. 2) if not, implode universe
18:13:01 <Bike> Roujo: i think you usually assume comparison is constant-time in these things.
18:13:17 -!- conehead has joined.
18:13:18 <Roujo> AnotherTest: swapping the current universe for one that already has a quantum computer
18:13:28 <Roujo> Bike: Oh. Oh well =P
18:13:45 <Roujo> Still, it would be a neat trick if you can't hold a whole element in memory
18:13:52 <Bike> though i guess you might have a point. you could reject some results in, uh, less-constant time, at least.
18:14:09 <Bike> but that's probably irrelevant to the O time of the anothertestgorithm.
18:14:13 <oklopol> if you can only do comparisons, then you can probably prove an n log n lower bound for the number of comparisons
18:14:16 <AnotherTest> Roujo: If I swap the universe, wouldn't that invalidate my pointers?
18:14:17 <Roujo> Yeah, it's still n^2
18:14:26 <Roujo> AnotherTest: Not if they were safe pointers
18:14:26 <kmc> you can do it in two O(n) passes with a hash table right
18:14:34 <boily> AnotherTest: nah. too mainstream, and not ambitiöus enough.
18:14:35 <kmc> or if you just want to catch the "no solution" case, a bloom filter
18:15:35 <AnotherTest> suppose that given a value x at position i
18:15:44 <AnotherTest> then I can compute the value y at position i + 1
18:16:09 <oklopol> hash tables are the obvious solution if you're fine with "works in practice with probability 100-epsilon %", but _what if everything maps to the same element_
18:16:12 <Bike> starting to think you've presented your problem in a weird way here!
18:16:12 <Deewiant> Input formula into recursive equation solver, profit
18:16:28 <kmc> oklopol: universal hashes, hth
18:17:10 <oklopol> kmc: err, afaik that doesn't really help for deterministic algorithms
18:17:11 <Bike> AnotherTest: well i mean, you were talking about lists but now you're talking about "computing", which makes it seem like you contorted your actual problem to fit a list paradigm for us in the first place
18:17:14 <Roujo> kmc: What if you use the value as a hash?
18:17:17 <AnotherTest> I would use a hashtable if only it could store 10^600 elements
18:17:34 <Roujo> AnotherTest: Get a bigger table
18:17:46 <Roujo> Chop down a bittree
18:17:51 <Bike> (unrelatedly, if you have induction i wouldn't have even mentioned the z computation)
18:18:56 <Bike> so for example, it seems like this goes forever, is there guaranteed to be a repeated value at some point, or could it be monotonic or something
18:19:04 <FreeFull> oklopol: You could probably have a hash table that adapts to the input
18:19:29 <AnotherTest> Bike: yes, I have managed to found bounds for that as well
18:19:33 <FreeFull> Lookups would be just as fast but insertions would be worse
18:19:48 <Bike> http://rrresearch.fieldofscience.com/2013/07/apple-academic-press-predatory.html anyway here's a weird thing
18:19:48 <oklopol> you cannot have a hashing algorithm where it's not possible that everything you encounter maps to the same element, unless you do no compression
18:20:33 <Roujo> Treat every value as an address in memory. When you encounter a value, if its bit is on, it's a match! If it's not, well, meh.
18:20:45 <Roujo> Turn it on and go on to the next value
18:21:12 <Bike> AnotherTest: is there a distribution the values follow? can you do any sequence acceleration? what are the properties of the sequence in general? or do you just want us to ignore these and consider it an arbitrary sequence, like you said
18:21:39 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
18:21:43 <Bike> do you want the first duplicate or any duplicate? bla bla, bla bla bla, bla
18:21:48 <AnotherTest> Bike: I don't want you to ignore them, but I can't tell you the properties either because... well because.
18:21:48 <Roujo> foreach(Value value : values) { if(File.exists(value)) { /* found match! /* } else { File.create(value) } };
18:21:53 <Bike> AnotherTest: ok
18:22:06 <FreeFull> oklopol: Not even if you change the algorithm if you get more than n things in one element?
18:22:17 <AnotherTest> I can tell you that the distribution isn't known though
18:22:24 <Bike> AnotherTest: but for example, you could have a linear algorithm with constant space if you knew that eventually two duplicate elements would be adjacent
18:22:25 <Roujo> foreach(Value value : values) { if(File.exists(value)) { /* found match! /* } else { File.create(value).write(value.getIndex()) } }
18:22:40 <Roujo> So that you have the matching index in the file
18:22:52 <Bike> well... not sure about linear really.
18:22:52 <oklopol> (or maybe yes, let's think a bit)
18:23:10 <Bike> i guess it's linear in the length until there are adjacent duplicates :D
18:23:15 <FreeFull> oklopol: But that would mean that there is a set of values which will always map to the same element no matter what hashing algorithm you use
18:23:27 <AnotherTest> Bike: Well I can predict the minimum and maximum distance between the two equal values
18:23:29 <Roujo> Hell, if File.create fails if the file already exists, then it's even easier!
18:23:42 <AnotherTest> which certainly helps, but brute force is just not really what I want
18:23:42 <Bike> AnotherTest: "the" two? are there only two?
18:23:51 <Bike> that's not brute force :(
18:23:57 <oklopol> and by yes i mean you're right, that is not true
18:24:19 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
18:24:35 <Bike> so when you say "i don't want brute force" in response to my solution there i assume you mean that you expect there to be duplicates long before the adjacent (or minimally distant) ones, and would rather get thoe
18:24:49 <Bike> which raises questions about your specific requirements, i think
18:24:50 <FreeFull> oklopol: you could have two elements though and split based on the mean value
18:25:02 <oklopol> you could of course just put the value in the next slot if the previous one is full, and you would certainly have only one value per hash cell
18:25:47 <FreeFull> Which would mean that you would have to potentially rebuild your hashcells on each insertion in the worst case
18:25:51 <oklopol> in any case i'm pretty sure no matter what you do a hash does not give any speedup in the worst case
18:26:13 <oklopol> but you're right, what i said earlier does not in any way prove this, perhaps i thought it did
18:26:21 <FreeFull> oklopol: I'm just thinking you can always make lookup better by making insertion worse
18:26:26 -!- sacje has joined.
18:26:59 <Roujo> I like my File System idea (^_^)
18:27:21 <oklopol> i'm just saying that i'm sure hash tables cannot be made 100% foolproof
18:27:32 * quintopia hands out fibonacci heaps to everyone
18:27:39 <Roujo> oklopol: Unless your hash function maps a value to itself
18:27:40 <AnotherTest> Bike: well suppose you want two find two equal values. Say they are located at i and j. I know that lower_bound < |i - j| < upper_bound. I can compute those bounds
18:27:47 <Roujo> But yeah, it's not really a hash function then =P
18:27:54 <oklopol> Roujo: right, unless there is no compression, as i mentioned earlier
18:28:03 <FreeFull> oklopol: Not even with a meta-function that creates hash functions?
18:28:17 <FreeFull> And horrid insertion complexity
18:28:31 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_hashing is like such a metafunction
18:29:01 <oklopol> for probabilistic algorithms, universal hashing ofc works
18:29:05 <Bike> AnotherTest: well that gives you an O(i*(upper-lower)) time and O(upper-lower) space algorithm at least
18:29:16 <Bike> AnotherTest: er assuming you don't mind computing those bounds
18:29:40 <AnotherTest> Bike: I also know that i + 1 == j + 1 is veru likely to be true
18:29:59 <AnotherTest> Bike: I can compute those bounds using simple calculations, so no
18:30:06 <Bike> i'm not sure that helps, but ok
18:31:01 <Bike> an emoticon or vi? we may neve rknow
18:31:21 <Roujo> Bike: Watch out, that space looks like it's escaping
18:31:23 <Bike> way to ruin the mystery asshole
18:31:36 <boily> in our offices we have the usual vim vs. heretics religion war.
18:31:39 <Bike> Roujo: neve's a strong one, she can keep it contained
18:32:12 <AnotherTest> Bike: actually, what makes you think that wasn't a lie
18:32:18 <FreeFull> Despite vim having ex built in
18:32:19 <Roujo> boily: I just use Notepad++ =P
18:32:29 <boily> FreeFull: of course, even if I had an argument with a sysadmin about the merits of sed against ed.
18:32:38 <Bike> AnotherTest: anyway how about this look-ahead-between-lower-and-upper algorithm, does that help you
18:32:50 <AnotherTest> Roujo: You mean notepad right? Who still uses ++ these days?
18:33:03 <boily> Roujo: that reminds me, I think I owe you a smack from last friday, quand que t'as mentionné Pauline, you evil miscreant!
18:33:09 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:33:26 <AnotherTest> Bike: well, that was my first idea but I figured that it wasn't very efficient
18:33:33 <Roujo> AnotherTest: I use ++ all the time. Why would you prefer notepad?
18:33:51 <Bike> AnotherTest: intuitively it seems like it uses the least possible number of comparisons, not that i have a proof
18:34:02 <AnotherTest> Roujo: It's like preferring C++ over C... ask eliott or someone else
18:34:29 <Roujo> Well, Notepad doesn't support syntax highlighting, or regex, or custom commands...
18:34:36 <boily> fungot: to ++ or not to ++?
18:34:36 <fungot> boily: and is one thing which you might want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has. you came through, which is the bit-reversal of the statement is encountered, it is also readily than they use over there
18:34:42 <Bike> Roujo: "well C doesn't support classes"
18:34:58 <Roujo> Bike: Well C is a beautiful note, thank you very much
18:35:12 <Bike> c4 mother fucker
18:35:42 <boily> FreeFull: eh? you sure?
18:35:51 <Bike> i used to use it when notepad would crash on long documents
18:35:58 <boily> AnotherTest: I did by error once, but corrected myself soon afterwards.
18:36:06 <oklopol> notepad doesn't have undo :(
18:36:08 <Roujo> AnotherTest: lolwat.rtf
18:36:15 <FreeFull> sam's manpage is broken for some reason though
18:36:26 <Bike> oh, yes, and when people gave me rtfs for some godforsaken reason
18:36:34 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:36:34 <boily> I tried acme, too. got utterly confused by the way the mouse is used.
18:36:41 <HackEgo> bash: man-cat: command not found
18:36:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: run,: not found
18:37:06 <oklopol> wordpad has that horrible thing where you cannot choose anything but full words
18:37:10 <oklopol> otherwise it's like notepad with undo
18:37:27 <Bike> can i help you
18:37:30 <AnotherTest> Bike: hmm... well I guess that's bad news (and possibly good news at the same time <insert evil laughing>)
18:37:30 <FreeFull> Bike: sam has a command-line mode
18:37:36 <FreeFull> Bike: "read the fucking coder's brain"
18:38:08 <Bike> "Via Twitter, Tuomas Aivelo reports that profs in Finland must retire at 68–but many of them keep doing research, without pay!" ok
18:38:40 <Bike> AnotherTest: i have to compliment you here, you've got a good mix of information and hidden information here, near-optimal for evil laughs i would say
18:39:31 <AnotherTest> Bike: I would like to tell you but I'd probably disappear or something... ok I know I'm paranoia... or maybe not
18:39:41 <Bike> you're losing it
18:39:47 <Bike> that's too cheesy
18:40:07 -!- atrapado has joined.
18:41:15 * boily gives a Pied-De-Vent to AnotherTest
18:41:40 <boily> (very nice cheese from Îles-de-la-Madeleine. it smells like horse.)
18:41:52 <AnotherTest> I'm actually limited by other people. They probably wouldn't like me disclosing the entire thing
18:43:27 <boily> I never went there. In fact, I think the easternmost point I went to in Québec is Rimouski, and event then it only was up to Ste-Luce.
18:45:57 <AnotherTest> Bike: perhaps it's easier to answer the following: "what's the most efficient algorithm for cycle detection?"
18:47:16 <Bike> my experience with cycle detection is that fuck cycle detection forever, but i know there are good algorithms for it
18:48:21 <AnotherTest> Fiora: what's the time complexity of that?
18:48:50 <Fiora> Um... wikipedia says O(V*E)?
18:50:12 <Fiora> number of vertices and edges, I think?
18:50:30 <AnotherTest> oh right... I'm assuming you're looking at graph theory
18:50:50 <Fiora> isn't that where you'd find cycle detection stuff...? or am I missing something
18:51:44 <Roujo> boily: I went there, once. T'was nice.
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19:01:10 <fizzie> Hey, you Canadians: do you play the ukulele?
19:01:17 <fizzie> I understand it's a thing.
19:02:33 -!- conehead has joined.
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19:04:53 <fizzie> (There was a documentary aired by the local public broadcasting company that was about the instrument; it featured a lot of Canadians.)
19:11:44 <Roujo|Android> I'm on IRC. On a bus. We're living in the future. Woot. =)
19:13:11 <fizzie> Given how far in the future we are, it should be at least a hot air balloon or something.
19:13:19 <boily> fizzie: a colleague does. we have a lime green uke with glitters somewhere...
19:13:44 <boily> Roujo|Android: you seem to always be in a bus.
19:13:45 <fizzie> boily: Apparently it is indeed a thing.
19:14:40 <Roujo|Android> boily: I take public transit to and from work, so... yeah =P
19:15:01 <boily> our workplace is a little bit weird. you can deambulate all around the floor with a rubber horse head and say hello to a colleague with a chicken head on your way to coffee.
19:15:25 <fizzie> This was the Linux place? Sounds par for the course.
19:15:39 <boily> Roujo|Android: yesterday was an interesting experience. there was that murder in the night that closed off Beaubien, and then the accident at the end of the day at Rosemont.
19:16:14 <boily> fizzie: very linux place. I have a penguin plushie on my desk that I use as a projectile when a coworker says something stupid.
19:16:45 <Roujo|Android> boily: Ah yes, the good old Rosemont Murder-Accident combo
19:17:22 <boily> we had to walk all around a block to get to the bus, me with a set of mahjong tiles in my packsack and a table on my head. it was fungotely heavy.
19:17:22 <fungot> boily: i know i didn't know that you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote). you need to install in /usr/ lib " 1.ss" " srfi"
19:17:44 <boily> very sensible choice.
19:19:43 <boily> random grep question: is there a way to grep for a pattern that spans multiple lines? I'm searching for python function calls where a keyword argument has a certain value, e.g. "searched_function(..., random_arg_on_another_line='value')"?
19:20:07 <boily> Roujo|Android: you know what they say about that:
19:20:09 <metasepia> All this big deal about white collar crime -- what's WRONG with white collar
19:20:09 <metasepia> crime? Who enjoys his job today? You? Me? Anybody? The only satisfying
19:20:09 <metasepia> part of any job is coffee break, lunch hour and quitting time. Years ago
19:20:09 <metasepia> there was at least the hope of improvement -- eventual promotion -- more
19:20:09 <metasepia> important jobs to come. Once you can be sold the myth that you may make
19:20:10 <metasepia> president of the company you'll hardly ever steal stamps. But nobody
19:20:10 <metasepia> believes he's going to be president anymore. The more people change jobs
19:20:11 <metasepia> the more they realize that there is a direct connection between working for
19:20:11 <metasepia> a living and total stupefying boredom. So why NOT take revenge? You're not
19:20:12 <metasepia> going to find ME knocking a guy because he pads an expense account and his
19:20:12 <metasepia> home stationery carries the company emblem. Take away crime from the white
19:20:13 <metasepia> collar worker and you will rob him of his last vestige of job interest.
19:20:19 <fizzie> That was the longest fortune.
19:20:32 <boily> it didn't even flood. I'm disappointed.
19:20:57 <fizzie> boily: As for the grep, I've used the manual "grep -A 1 stuffonfirstline | grep -B 1 stuffonsecondline".
19:21:08 <fizzie> (It can get a bit confused if you happen to have a line that matches both.)
19:21:37 <olsner> fungot: how's your fortune?
19:21:37 <fungot> olsner: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going, tough one. if we solve it,...
19:22:04 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:22:22 <fizzie> Still with the double-fault.
19:23:12 <olsner> oh, double fault as in two simultaneous errors, not an x86 double fault
19:23:30 <boily> fizzie: I went with "grep -Enrs", and hoped that both parts were on the same line. but your solution seems interestinger.
19:23:41 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic. He also claims to be Canadian. As per the Hexham treaty, he mustn't meet boily lest the Universe be destroyed.
19:23:49 <boily> time to update that...
19:24:28 <fizzie> olsner: The x86 double fault is what I was thinking; though I don't know what the closest IRC analogue would be.
19:24:31 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
19:24:42 <boily> `learn Roujo is still a Java heretic. His claim to Canadianness is soon to be verified by boily, treaties be damned. A cocktail and destruction of the Universe are scheduled at 19h00.
19:25:19 <coppro> sadly, I'm not in Montreal. I'm not even in Ottawa today
19:25:26 <olsner> I was thinking about making my OS use double fault as a catch-all interrupt/fault handler, using the error code of the double fault to figure out which interrupt it was trying to deliver
19:25:26 <boily> Roujo|Android: I'll be at the Broue Pub tonight for the Douteux. http://brouepubbrouhaha.com/index.cfm
19:25:41 <Roujo|Android> Also, with Teneb moving, Hexham will lose its special status =P
19:25:51 <olsner> (I'm not sure whether that actually works though)
19:26:07 <coppro> you guys should all come to waterloo, it's a pretty happening place
19:27:42 <boily> looks like a pretty standard Ontarian place.
19:28:19 <coppro> it's THE pretty standard Ontarian place, tyvm
19:28:46 <boily> I thought that Ottawa was more Ontarianer :p
19:29:01 <coppro> boily: what? no. Ottawa is bilingual
19:29:23 <boily> and? what's the problem?
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19:30:49 <olsner> if the place is bilingual does that mean everyone speaks one/either language, or everyone speaks both?
19:31:13 <boily> olsner: you have a mix of pretty much every possible case.
19:31:49 <boily> you usually have more chances with English, but then it all depends where you are. sometimes Cantonese is a better choice.
19:33:48 <coppro> boily: oh, I'm in favour of bilingualism
19:33:54 <coppro> but it makes Ottawa pretty not-Ontarian
19:34:15 * coppro ran into the premier on Metcalfe yesterday
19:34:29 <boily> which premier? provincial or federal?
19:34:39 <coppro> no such thing as a federal premier
19:35:06 <boily> eh? they are not the same in English?
19:35:18 <coppro> prime minister for federal, premier for provincial
19:35:36 <boily> premier ministre, premier ministre.
19:35:40 <coppro> although some provinces used to use prime minister like Ontario, that was eventually changed to eliminate confusion
19:35:53 <coppro> je parle francais... un peu
19:36:00 <boily> c'est déjà pas pire!
19:36:10 <boily> I tried with Taneb once, but it didn't end well...
19:36:30 <coppro> tried what? speaking French?
19:36:55 <boily> I... uhm... forcefully inserted metaphorical electrodes in his brain.
19:37:10 <Taneb> Well, breaching the skull hurt
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19:38:04 <olsner> Je pense que ça fait mal.
19:38:18 <fizzie> Doesn't Taneb moving just mean Hexham gets larger? I thought that's how it works.
19:38:38 <Taneb> I don't think I'm negative people
19:38:51 <fizzie> No, I mean, geographically larger.
19:39:01 <fizzie> The population count just monotonically increases anyway.
19:40:49 <^v> You know what
19:43:55 <boily> I don't know what.
19:46:12 -!- Koen_ has joined.
19:46:32 <boily> Koen_: do you know?
19:46:47 <Roujo> Ça a l'air marrant, le douteux =P
19:47:57 <kmc> oh good they are fixing the thing where extern "C" fn foo() { ... } has type *u8
19:48:29 <boily> Roujo: ouaisp :D bonne bière, bonne bouffe, choses étranges et bizarres, et un film poche à 22h00.
19:48:49 <Roujo> Trop tard pour moi, mind you, mais bon =P
19:50:44 <boily> pareillement for the bad movie, but sinon ça commence aux alentours de 7:30pm, with the main presentation à 20h00.
19:51:27 <boily> we once spontaneously started playing mahjong at a random table, and made a guy from Vancouver twitch.
19:52:04 <boily> he was hearing us shuffling tiles behind his back, and for a moment he was trying to remember where he had heard that sound before :D
19:53:05 <nooodl> help mixing français et anglais est confusing
19:53:16 <nooodl> est-ce que c'est always comme ça, living in canada
19:54:15 <boily> nooodl: it depends de où c'est que t'es. last weekend was hard on my brains, where j'avais à expliquer les règles du shōgi en français and in English to players in quelques groups at the same time.
19:54:31 <Koen_> boily: the answer is YES
19:54:48 <boily> ^v: according to Koen_, the answer is YES.
19:55:04 <Koen_> okay that just sounded weird, since the name of the school is 42
19:55:26 <^v> 42 = answer of life and everything
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19:55:29 <Koen_> also, all of my friends whom phoen number I still have also got YES
19:55:33 <boily> you asked “do you know”, I asked the same to Koen_, I forwarded you the answer.
19:55:44 <Koen_> oh wait you weren't interested
19:55:49 <Koen_> I thought that was an honest question
19:56:02 <boily> the question was honest. not me. sorry. hth.
19:56:19 <Koen_> I also asked if I could work for them
19:56:26 <Koen_> as an assistant, helping students etc
19:56:37 <Koen_> they were very interested
19:56:53 <Koen_> but this is fucking France so you know, there's a rule against it
19:57:45 <Koen_> I can't be paid because the pay would be too much, I can't be a volunteer because it wouldn't be enough
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19:58:02 <boily> nooodl: is the feud between walloons and flemishs still strong in Belgium?
19:58:34 <Koen_> and I can't have an internship because I'm not a student yet
19:59:05 <boily> Koen_: the joy of CPE?
19:59:11 <nooodl> not *that* strong. these days we just joke about each other, or make sweeping statements about "die walen!" or "ces flamands!"
19:59:29 <Koen_> because it's interesting and I've got free time
19:59:35 <Koen_> I don't even care whether I'm paid or not
19:59:39 <boily> nooodl: well, that's a marked improvement.
20:00:01 <boily> Koen_: do as my breton coworkers and sail?
20:00:41 <Koen_> the only boats are on the seine
20:00:46 <Koen_> and they don't move that much
20:00:50 <nooodl> (note: "die walen!" is not a death threat)
20:01:26 <Koen_> nooodl: my ssiter used to have a poster of "die another day". I used to always pronunce the die as if it was the german word
20:03:08 <nooodl> do you live in paris Koen_
20:03:38 <Koen_> well I do at the moment
20:03:44 <Koen_> and I will during the school year
20:04:06 <Koen_> but I'll probably go *home* for what's left of the summer
20:04:31 -!- Bike has joined.
20:07:09 <kmc> Koen_: Die Gnu Autotools
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20:15:00 <boily> doesthiswork: I don't have you yet in my The Question Document. care to provide you approximate coördinates and body weigh, please?
20:16:49 <quintopia> why do you always use the verb in the place where the noun should go
20:17:07 <boily> quintopia: because it has been codified so.
20:17:12 <boily> doesthiswork: thanks!
20:17:53 <boily> only if the Esoteric Board of Traditions accepts.
20:18:20 <boily> doesthiswork: hey. you're near Bike!
20:18:38 <doesthiswork> is it policy to use only 100% beeswax candles in our rituals?
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20:20:02 <quintopia> doesthiswork: if so, it won't be any of yours
20:20:32 <kmc> BBC top story: arbitrary detention of journalists' family members by conspiracy of the US and UK
20:20:35 <kmc> CNN top story: bear attacks
20:21:27 <Bike> fox top story: why isn't the UK just detaining the journalists
20:21:57 <quintopia> tabloid top news story: bear attacks journalists' family members by conspiracy of the US and UK
20:22:09 <elliott> effectively detention of a journalist, isn't it? in that it seems likely he was acting as a proxy for Greenwald (who had also talked about giving the documents and stuff to him or something before?) no better, of course
20:22:09 <Bike> but yeah seriously that greenwald thing is fucked up.
20:22:13 <boily> doesthiswork: uhm... you sure about 47N 122W? I hope it's only a rounding error because it's even more nowhere than hexham.
20:22:14 <elliott> (note: my information on this is like a day old)
20:23:19 <metasepia> A city of west-central Washington on an arm of Puget Sound south of Seattle.
20:23:27 <Bike> tacoma isn't that nowhere
20:23:38 <olsner> the detention was probably very helpful in the war on terror, so all is good
20:24:15 -!- myndzl has changed nick to myndzi.
20:25:39 <Bike> kind of waiting for a government explanation, which i'm sure will be angering
20:26:00 <quintopia> doesthiswork: rounding to the nearest whole degree is a good way to end up in a completely different place
20:26:41 <quintopia> doesthiswork: at least give the minutes
20:30:54 <Bike> no doesthiswork! noooooo
20:31:00 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjcPoiafP0 let's talk about wheels
20:31:46 <boily> doesthiswork: thanks again!
20:31:59 -!- augur has changed nick to julius.
20:32:12 -!- julius has changed nick to augur.
20:32:15 <boily> Bike: resistance is futile. you will be approximated with a small error.
20:33:11 <doesthiswork> with rtk you can get accuracy down to the sub inch level by measuring the phase of the signal
20:38:05 <Bike> nearly convinced my dad to buy a robomower once
20:38:21 <doesthiswork> they don't play completely nice with other manufacturers though
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21:13:38 <boily> stupid many to one field.
21:18:59 <boily> having a standard many2one in OpenERP is easy. but try to customise it, and all fungots break loose.
21:18:59 <fungot> boily: and it's self-modifying techniques." stop immobilizes and disables you. in these bones, i shall return! by the way, the wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace?
21:26:34 <Roujo> dat dangling quote
21:27:02 * boily dangles fungot by its quotes
21:27:02 <fungot> boily:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:27:10 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
21:27:23 <HackEgo> 567) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:27:34 <boily> first: I'm not an asshole. second: seems it happened before.
21:28:14 <HackEgo> 555) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
21:28:22 <HackEgo> 28) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 68) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 74) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 127) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" a
21:28:27 <boily> olsner: Vorpal is an anmaster?
21:28:35 <HackEgo> 124) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
21:28:58 <boily> ooooooh. Vorpal has a secret identity!
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21:29:16 <fizzie> Perhaps quotes should use some sort of numeric identifier that wouldn't keep changing with nicks.
21:29:19 <olsner> probably not so much secret as previous
21:29:40 <boily> same thing. succret and previous are only two sides of the same coin.
21:30:07 <boily> time to go. my brains are mush from too much XML, and I'm starting to make bad puns.
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21:31:39 <kmc> pub trait VectorVector
21:34:23 <fizzie> There's a LaVectorDouble in LAPACK++, but sadly it's not... whatever a VectorVector is (probably), it's just a double-precision vector.
21:36:50 <kmc> it's a trait for vectors of vectors, so the implementations are for &'self [~[T]] and &'self [&'self [T]]
21:37:02 <kmc> beautiful language imo
21:37:13 <kmc> is there any esolang with region pointers?
21:38:34 <kmc> I think as long as there is not I will feel justified talking about Rust in here
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21:40:54 <olsner> have you started having obfuscated rust code contests yet?
21:41:01 <kmc> good question
21:41:22 <kmc> error: mismatched types: expected `std::iterator::Map<'t,display_list::DisplayItem<E>,(display_list::DisplayItemKey,&'t display_list::DisplayItem<E>),std::vec::VecIterator<'t,display_list::DisplayItem<E>>>` but found `std::iterator::Map<,&display_list::DisplayItem<E>,(display_list::DisplayItemKey,&display_list::DisplayItem<E>),std::vec::VecIterator<,display_list::DisplayItem<E>>>`
21:41:28 <kmc> C++ FLASHBACK
21:41:28 -!- augur has joined.
21:41:44 <kmc> yeah that's an error message from rustc
21:41:46 <kmc> those are rust types
21:45:28 <fizzie> You need some sort of a rustfilt, clearly.
21:46:34 -!- Bike has joined.
21:47:54 <kmc> well actually the name mangling in binaries is C++ compatible
21:48:16 <fizzie> Oh, I was thinking of that other thing.
21:48:31 <kmc> but then there's another layer of mangling too
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21:48:47 <kmc> that would be nice
21:48:52 <kmc> these iterators are super new and pretty ugly
21:49:12 <kmc> if you build and return an iterator by calling some chain of map filter etc, that whole chain is evident in the type of what you return
21:49:22 <kmc> it's a little hard to avoid this in a language which handles allocation the way C++ or Rust does
21:49:25 <kmc> but still, eww
21:49:41 <Bike> another engineering class, another sausagefest
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21:51:30 <Fiora> gosh, your classes have already started?
21:51:53 <Bike> yeah, the year starts fairly early here i guess.
21:52:04 <Bike> i'm fine with it. schoollessness is dull
21:52:04 <doesthiswork> have you ever read debra tannen's book on the differing values we set up for women and men? (at least in america)
21:52:38 <Fiora> which classes do you have this semester?
21:53:00 <Bike> i feel in this case the anecdotal data of "there's only one woman versus twenty-something males in my circuits class" is stark enough for a first analysis
21:53:21 <Bike> Fiora: intro inorganic chem, intro psych, intro organismal biology, design of logic circuits
21:53:24 <doesthiswork> basically, one thing men are trained is that if you want respect you have to be better than someone else
21:53:45 <Bike> i guess "anecdotal data" is a pretty silly phrase
21:53:55 <Fiora> are these like, all neuroscience prereqs?
21:53:55 <fizzie> I think our first exam period (where you can mostly retake things from before summer) starts next week.
21:54:25 <kmc> our year didn't start until late september, because we did three 11-week terms per year, and that makes the holidays line up better
21:54:27 <Bike> well, except circuits, which is just "let's put some more electricy stuff in there"
21:54:51 <Bike> not that i'm complaining, i've been looking forward to this one
21:55:01 <Fiora> is this like, where you get to design adders and stuff?
21:55:09 <doesthiswork> and one thing women are trained is that if you want to be liked you should be equal and share contributions
21:55:12 <Bike> not sure actually!
21:55:19 <kmc> oh man, adder architectur
21:55:20 <Bike> doesthiswork: oh i've seen these books before, about communication
21:55:32 <Bike> i already "know" how to make adders thanks to that one book with mammoths
21:55:38 <kmc> I had no idea until I shadowed 6.004 that making a fast adder is actually kind of tricky!
21:55:39 <Bike> actually making one in lab would be cool though
21:55:47 <Bike> kmc: yeah i still have no idea how the fancier ones work
21:55:57 <Fiora> kmc: I helped make a 12-bit adder! in Electric! okay so probably I didn't contribute much but still
21:56:01 <kmc> if you just chain a bunch of adders sequentially then the last one waits for the carry from the second to last, which waits etc.
21:56:16 <Bike> i think knuth mentions it but i didn't understand his explanation of the other kinds
21:56:31 <kmc> Bike: well a carry-select adder is kind of simple, basically let's duplicate the upper half of the adder, do it once assuming 0 carry and also in parallel assuming 1 carry
21:56:37 <kmc> and then you just mux the outputs by the carry bit at the end
21:56:49 <Bike> oh. yeah. hey that makes sense.
21:57:09 <kmc> and you can do that recursively (dividing to equal halves each time isn't optimal, since there's more delay on higher bits, but I don't remember exactly what kind of lopsided tree is best)
21:57:18 <Bike> hopefully this class will get me a better grasp of terms like "mux", i mean I already know what a multiplexer does but still
21:57:38 <Fiora> mux is just, like, something that ors together a lot of bits, isn't it?
21:57:51 <kmc> uh inputs (A,B,S), output A if S=0, B if S=1
21:58:02 <kmc> that's the simplest mux
21:58:03 <Fiora> ohhh. so it's like a selector
21:58:17 <Koen_> that sounds like and if-then-else
21:58:21 <Fiora> so like you have 8 inputs from cache banks, and a selector to say which of the cache banks to use
21:58:26 <Koen_> a functional if-then-else*
21:58:27 <Fiora> and that's a big mux?
21:58:28 <kmc> yep it's a hardware if / C ?: operator
21:58:30 <doesthiswork> bike: yes, and an interesting consequence of that is when you make something really competitive, our men are going to be a lot more comfortable than our women will be.
21:58:44 <fizzie> I made that ripple-carry addler in OpenTTD, does that count as doing electronics?
21:58:53 <kmc> you can straightforwardly expand A,B to be n-way buses, and you can also expand S to be n bits and have 2^N inputs instead of just 2
21:59:08 <kmc> CPUs have lots of muxes because they have to route data around differently, depending on the instruction
21:59:28 <Koen_> the C language doesn't have a function switch?
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22:00:20 <Bike> "Received a 10 MB XLSX. Seems to contain one sheet with about 50 x 30 #baffling" bioinformatics is a scary science
22:01:01 <Bike> oh, up to four women now.
22:02:01 <Bike> doesthiswork: this sounds kind of oversimplified but i guess it's something
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22:02:40 <doesthiswork> yes, it is an oversimplification because irc doesn't have room for essays
22:02:43 <Bike> "This adder design can be complemented with a carry-lookahead adder structure to generate the MUX inputs, thus gaining even greater performance as a parallel prefix adder while potentially reducing area" see, like this, i don't even know what "area" means really, like how do you calculate it
22:02:46 <fizzie> It's a crying shame that you can't do something like ({ switch (x) { ... } }) kind of thing with GCC statement expressions, because the last statement in the block needs to be an expression statement in order for the construct to have a (non-void) value.
22:02:48 <Bike> doesthiswork: granted
22:03:32 <Fiora> Bike: I think it's just, like, the space your circuit takes up when you actually go draw out the transistors and wires?
22:03:47 <Bike> yeah but i've never seen a non-abstract wiring diagram
22:04:15 <Bike> i don't know how you work out things like "well these two wires have to be x distance apart to avoid crosstalk"
22:04:26 <Fiora> they're design rules, I think
22:04:42 <Fiora> like, in the program I used there were restrictions like that, and rules about how you had to place wires and how large N/P doped areas had to be?
22:04:52 <Fiora> and there was a checker that would tell you if you were breaking the rules and where
22:05:01 <Bike> well, that's why i'm in class, and you already have your bs :p
22:05:26 <Fiora> you'll probably know wayyy more than me when I'm done, I have like near-zero actual experience <.<
22:06:04 <Bike> it's kind of funny asking questions in class. i think my psych prof thinks i'm a confused pre-med because i kept asking about the difference between clinical and research psychology
22:07:28 <Fiora> basically wiring the thing kinda felt like playing a video game, like a puzzle game where you had to do something according to certain restrictions
22:07:34 <Bike> on that note, he mentioned that they get most of their guinea pigs for research from a requirement for 101 students to participate in research, so that's great
22:07:38 <Bike> Fiora: yeah and it's np-complete isn't it
22:08:23 <Bike> TAs TBD, grader TBD, lab time TBD. what the hecks
22:09:33 -!- Pouti has joined.
22:09:56 <Fiora> like um, for example I have no idea how clocks work at all like I know there's a clock signal and it goes throughout the chip but how does it even I don't understand
22:10:01 <Fiora> like how does it make things do stuff
22:10:11 <Fiora> I guess you will probably learn this <.<
22:10:13 <Bike> that will be interesting to learn
22:10:22 <Bike> clockless circuits seem pretty interesting to me
22:11:01 <Fiora> or do like, do clocks only plug into SRAM cells representing the data at the start/end of each clock cycle?
22:11:15 <Fiora> like SRAM -> one clock worth of computation -> SRAM -> one clock worth of computation [...]
22:11:21 <doesthiswork> bike: programmer culture is fairly hierarchal because some people are a lot better at it than others (observe the oneupsmanship to establish a hierarchy that goes on when two programmers meet and have to work on a project together). But I wonder if there is a social structure that gets just as many cool things made, but doesn't need as much confrontation.
22:11:24 * Fiora has idea and is totally guessing
22:11:36 <Bike> professor doesn't know what the class is called. lol.
22:12:17 <Bike> doesthiswork: i think the meritocratic nature of the field is often overplayed
22:13:05 <doesthiswork> overplayed by people participating or people talking about it?
22:13:30 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_tree#Distribution "Most synchronous digital systems consist of cascaded banks of sequential registers with combinational logic between each set of registers. The functional requirements of the digital system are satisfied by the logic stages."
22:13:39 <Fiora> I... I think I was right? o_o
22:13:51 <Bike> u skilled grrrrl
22:14:16 <HackEgo> pouti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:14:19 <Fiora> I was just guessing based on my tiny bit of knowledge about verilog ;_;
22:15:02 <Pouti> Roujo and HackEgo : Hello!
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22:19:22 <Pouti> Roujo : So, working on some interesting project?
22:20:11 <Roujo> Well, I have an IRC bot that I should be fixing
22:20:19 <Roujo> But it's in Java, so I'd rather not talk about it here
22:20:29 <Roujo> Lest I draw the ires of elliott
22:25:58 <Pouti> Many projects, none related to programmation at this moment
22:26:43 <Bike> prof is comparing FPGAs to freshmen. good prof
22:27:44 <kmc> yeah I stayed up all night once doing PCB layout as a puzzle game
22:27:57 <kmc> you have to connect all the points and you can use red wires and blue wires and you can't cross two wires of the same color
22:28:02 <kmc> nice and abstract :)
22:28:10 <kmc> I think VLSI layout is a lot harder but I don't know
22:28:53 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds super similar, we had two metals (wires) and so on
22:29:03 <Bike> «we have [a NES chip someone designed in class] somewhere internally, apparently it's "illegal"»
22:29:27 <Fiora> I remember the professor explaining that like, each metal was a layer in the chip, so more metals would be more costly to fabricate
22:29:31 <kmc> Bike: haha
22:31:52 <Bike> he just described an executable as something that "constrains a processor to run a certain program", oh man
22:33:05 <kmc> the 6.004 labs include optimizing your logic for speed
22:33:07 <kmc> which is pretty fun
22:33:19 <kmc> lots and lots of little tweaks to eliminate gates from the critical path
22:33:33 <kmc> of course IRL you have to optimize for speed, area, power consumption, yield, etc. all at once
22:33:53 <Fiora> gosh, that sounds really fun I wish I had taken something like that
22:34:18 <Bike> for this class we have to buy an FPGA board instead of a textbook, so, lookin' p. cool
22:34:28 <kmc> Fiora: you can! i "took" this class in that I downloaded the labs and did them
22:34:40 * Bike plays the twilight zone theme
22:34:42 <kmc> it might be on OpenCourseWare but it's often better to just find the course website
22:35:18 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds really cool! um, do you know where I can find it <.<
22:35:25 <kmc> http://6004.mit.edu/ see "Handouts" and "Courseware"
22:35:36 <kmc> they have this logic simulator JSim which is... not great, but bearable
22:35:41 <kmc> I recommend using an external editor
22:35:52 <kmc> but it like simulates at the gate level, and will draw the logic timing diagrams
22:35:54 <Bike> oh, i've used jsim, it's ok
22:36:00 <kmc> also it can simulate analog stuff SPICE style
22:36:14 <kmc> the first lab is all about like "let's see how transistors are in fact analog devices and then, oh god, pretend they aren't"
22:36:25 <Bike> good sell, kmc. good sell
22:36:55 <Bike> oh, no, i used mars and logisim
22:37:20 <Bike> logisim was pretty boring but worked well enough
22:39:31 <Bike> why did i even mention mars.
22:47:40 <kmc> btw if anybody can explain to me how bipolar junction transistors work, and how field effect transistors work
22:47:43 <kmc> using small words
22:47:43 <kmc> that would be cool
22:58:37 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/FET_comparison.png um, I'm not sure if I'm right but
22:59:18 <Fiora> the idea seems to be that voltages applied to the sides move around the electrons in the transistor so that the top-bottom route becomes passable to electrons, or not
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23:00:30 <kmc> there are so many kinds and modes >_>
23:01:39 <Fiora> well like one kind moves around electrons, another moves around holes, and so on, I think?
23:02:06 <kmc> that's easy enough I suppose
23:04:59 -!- Pouti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:05:20 * oerjan suddenly envisions integrated circuits of black holes
23:06:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:07:24 * ^v suddenly smashed his vision with a hammer
23:07:56 <oerjan> i don't think i will recommend that.
23:09:14 <Fiora> kmc: so I guess, like, "field effect" refers to how the electromagnetic fields drag the electrons in this material out of the way, changing the conductivity?
23:09:38 <Fiora> I think that's it, at least...
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00:59:27 <oerjan> sketchy diagram http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/130819.html
01:05:48 <oerjan> @tell <boily> probably nearer to boily>boyle. my ancestors were Irish on the Boily side, but French on the Tremblay side. <-- what, and here i've been carefully pronouncing it with a french oi...
01:06:48 <oerjan> @ask boily also, how does one say "poulet" with an irish accent twh
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01:20:03 <Sgeo> http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/conn-police-cable-outage-worthy-911-call-20002202
01:32:14 <Bike> MEANWHILE, IN THE HUMANITIES http://lareviewofbooks.org/review/an-impossible-number-of-books/
01:32:30 <oerjan> reading the logs by pasting into google translate is annoying. i suggest we ban french hth
01:39:54 <Bike> http://www.scfbm.org/ also
01:40:32 <nooodl> oerjan: you mean like "bwally"
01:40:40 <nooodl> if so that's great & i'm going to start saying it in my head
01:49:43 <oerjan> <Roujo> git commit sepukku <-- do spelling nazis commit seppuku after misspelling it?
01:52:07 <Sgeo> I think glogbot should have a feature to reintegrate clog logs if glogbot goes down then comes back uo
02:02:29 <oerjan> glogbackup is supposed to be for backup logging, but afaik Gregor never has merged its logs back in
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02:13:32 <Sgeo> Wonder if I can still download Netscape
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02:14:22 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's certainly on oldwhatever.com
02:15:43 <Sgeo> There was a version 9 apparently
02:16:19 <Sgeo> Probably not really classic Netscape, I guess
02:17:27 <Sgeo> Looks Firefoxy
02:18:02 <Sgeo> Almost certain it's a reskinned Firefox
02:20:08 <Sgeo> Yeah, reading Wikipedia makes that clear
02:20:20 <Sgeo> But it looks like it just took the UI of Firefox and rebranded it
02:23:33 <Sgeo> Which version do I want for classic feeling Navigator?
02:24:18 <Bike> sgeo have you considered becoming a historian or something instead of whatever you do now
02:30:13 <Sgeo> I've never used Mosaic myself
02:30:23 <Sgeo> Can Mosaic even be made to work on XP?
02:30:30 <Sgeo> Wonder if ViolaWWW could work
02:32:01 <Sgeo> activation.netscape.com could not be found
02:32:21 <Sgeo> Woah the GUI reminds me of REBOL
02:32:27 <Sgeo> Just... graphics-wise
02:32:40 <Bike> you could work with archive team or something
02:43:18 <oerjan> <kmc> the filesystem changes are merged afterward with Mercurial <-- does it still do that after it was made transactional?
02:44:54 <^v> python sould classify as a joke esoteric language
02:45:34 <oerjan> Roujo really has a hard time with HackEgo, i see
02:46:26 <elliott> oerjan: it's only sort of transactional now I think?
02:46:30 <oerjan> python isn't the most common language suggested in that vein, i should think
02:46:38 <oerjan> elliott: um i sort of thought you made that part
02:46:46 <elliott> he ripped out half of it :P
02:47:32 <oerjan> nah, i'm just going to assume he broke it horribly somehow hth
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03:08:23 <oerjan> oh whatever too much logs
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03:58:28 <Sgeo> What are some existing alternatives to text-based version control? Does Monticello count, or is it still text-based at the method level
03:59:28 <Sgeo> I saw a wonderful video once, I don't know what happened to it
03:59:47 <Sgeo> I saw it when I was REBOL-obsessed, so must have seen it recently, but I think the video itself is very old
04:06:05 -!- kmc has set topic: A lot of little lies for the sake of one big truth | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
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04:11:02 * oerjan is disappointed that that's just an album title
04:11:43 <kmc> annyway sorry 2 disappoint
04:12:19 <oerjan> kmc: it _should_ have been an epic putdown quote against something.
04:13:43 <oerjan> although perhaps there are too many somethings that fit, so it's better as an album title anyhow
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04:37:36 <btiffin> If you added GOTO to a bf instruction set, would you assist programmers and unwind any loops between current source position and new, or let them suffer for coding in a bf derivative in the first place? I'm leaning toward suffering and unpredictable behaviour.
04:38:02 -!- ^v has changed nick to dan200.
04:38:23 <Bike> why are you adding goto
04:38:40 <btiffin> Fun. And shortening of 99 bottles.
04:38:58 <Bike> well, whatever's more fun, then
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04:39:52 <Bike> anyway, going with the Core Brainfuck Goal i'd use whatever's easier to compile
04:40:54 <btiffin> small s.c.r.i.p.t. is written in COBOL. ! (from Forth) stores last immediate value or memory cell to source-position. It's all written as a GO TO (256 entries) DEPENDING on character-value. Engine just loops over the characters.
04:42:23 <zzo38> Is a "GO TO (256 entries) DEPENDING on character-value" like a "ON ... GOTO ..." in BASIC?
04:42:43 <Bike> zzo's asking if it's like basic, not if it's implemented in basic.
04:43:54 <btiffin> Oh, sorry zzo38; no not really, its a computed goto
04:44:46 <btiffin> oops just looked. Yes, yes it is.
04:46:35 <shachaf> kmc: good lightning today imo
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05:11:48 <kmc> yeah what's with that
05:11:57 <kmc> I guess the lightning is p. far away
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05:22:03 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronostasis hi i hate illusions
05:23:08 <Taneb> I came to the realisation the other day that I'm not really that much of a fan of sci-fi
05:23:45 <Taneb> I mean, I enjoy FreeFall, Firefly, the Stainless Steel Rat books
05:23:50 <Taneb> But that's really it
05:24:12 <Bike> have you considered reading real books (you nerde)
05:24:30 <Taneb> I enjoyed the Girl with the Dragon Tatto
05:24:42 <Taneb> But couldn't get into - Played with Fire
05:34:33 <elliott> Bike: "When eyes execute a saccade, perception of time stretches slightly backward." terrifying
05:36:56 <Fiora> gosh, it's kind of like, if you have a video with a bad frame, you could copy the frame after it into the bad frame.
05:37:15 <Fiora> and the visual processing system does this for you conveniently
05:37:32 <Bike> i don't like describing saccades as involving 'bad frames' but yeah
05:37:40 <Bike> relatedly: this book pointed out that you can't pan your vision
05:37:47 <Bike> and now i hate everything because i'm trying it and i can't.
05:38:38 <Bike> like focus on a thing, then smoothly move your focus.
05:39:11 <elliott> I tried moving my head but my eyes jumped anyway :(
05:39:30 <Fiora> I think I did it? I just focused on a continual object (e.g. the wall)
05:39:32 <Fiora> with no points to focus on
05:39:43 <Fiora> it's a lot easier if I just spin on my desk chair though -_-
05:40:06 <Bike> when i try it it's small jerks
05:40:44 <elliott> it's like, I wouldn't notice the jumping if I wasn't thinking about it?
05:40:50 <Bike> anywayy the upshot of this is that i spent ten minutes staring at a wall instead of reading.
05:40:58 <Bike> reading about staring, but still.
05:42:12 <Gracenotes> SMBC on memory: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2020
05:42:31 <Bike> man memory's a whole other clusterfuck, i'm talkin present experience here motha fucka
05:43:18 <Bike> i wonder why he considered memory part of "reality"
05:43:30 <Bike> how very.... subjectivist................................
05:43:33 <Gracenotes> the universe was created 5 minutes ago, you're welcome
05:43:38 <Fiora> memory is easy. I just kind of don't have it, see, resolved!
05:44:29 <Bike> here is a hand
05:44:32 <Gracenotes> I can't help think that bearable is a pun, either
05:45:20 <elliott> Fiora: what did you just say?
05:46:31 <Bike> other annoying vision things: apparently the vestibulo-ocular reflex doesn't actually fully counter motion, so your eyes receive totally different input when you turn your head, but it doesn't look like the world's actually moving
05:47:44 <elliott> wait, what does that mean?
05:48:11 <Bike> like, your eyes point in a different direction than they were, so the light they receieve is totally different
05:48:15 <Bike> but your vision is still stable
05:48:16 <Fiora> elliott: that my memory is horrifically awful
05:48:33 <Bike> also applies to saccades
05:48:38 <elliott> Fiora: see, you remembered.
05:48:42 <dan200> 3.1415926535897932384626433832
05:48:47 <elliott> unless you looked at what you said. but that's cheating.
05:48:48 <dan200> i have a good memory .-.
05:48:57 <Bike> dan200: now do euler-mascheroni
05:49:15 <elliott> Fiora just reads the whole day's log whenever she needs to respond to anything
05:50:11 <dan200> was that seriously a lim 1 infinity
05:50:15 <Bike> the euler-mascheroni constant. recite it.
05:50:22 <Bike> a couple digits, anyway.
05:51:25 <Bike> catalan nimbers
05:51:48 <Fiora> elliott: well that's like, short term memory
05:52:02 <Fiora> long term memory is basically just a bunch of facts, and if I'm lucky, a past event in my life might be in one of those fact boxes
05:52:14 <Fiora> but it's more likely that the fact box will contain, like, the name of a pokemon
05:52:42 <elliott> I wish I got random pokemon whenever I tried to think of something
05:52:51 <elliott> huh. I don't actually know the plural of pokemon
05:52:56 <Bike> you should just use your procedural memory instead. so whenever you tap your fingers in a certain order you can remember the name of that boy who threw sand in your face in the second grade, making you cry
05:52:57 <HackEgo> ＤＡＮ２００： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴ
05:53:00 <Bike> elliott: pokemen
05:53:13 <Gracenotes> for the most part, it's different neurons that respond differently to different stimuli.
05:53:17 <Fiora> dan200: they really like welcoming you a lot, unfortunately
05:53:21 <Fiora> I got welcomed, like, 7 times
05:53:26 <dan200> THREE TIMES I HAVE BEEN WELCOMED
05:53:32 <Bike> Gracenotes: not in this case!
05:53:32 <dan200> not including when i was here 3 years ago
05:53:44 <Bike> `pastelogs lcome Fiora
05:53:45 <dan200> i must have been welcomed 10 times ;_;
05:54:09 <HackEgo> DaN200: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
05:54:14 <Gracenotes> Bike: I do recall memory neurons being a bit differently behaving.
05:54:22 <Fiora> oh no not again ;_;
05:54:22 <Bike> oh i don't mean memory
05:54:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.419
05:54:26 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:54:29 <elliott> Fiora: I'm just letting you know you're still welcome!!
05:54:51 <Bike> Fiora: wow there are ten welcomes in this log.
05:54:59 <Bike> on the first day, i mean.
05:55:02 <Fiora> wait, was I actually right @_@
05:55:09 <Fiora> or wait no I said 7
05:55:10 <Bike> no you underestimated
05:55:11 <Fiora> help I have no memory
05:55:18 <Fiora> it was dan who said 10
05:55:27 <elliott> you repressed the memories of the other 3 welcomes. it was just too much
05:55:45 <Gracenotes> the welcome isn't even that great. we devote a large portion of it to advertising for unrelated channels.
05:56:02 <Fiora> I don't need to repress memories, I just lose them normally -_-
05:56:33 <Bike> it sounds convenient when you put it that way
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05:57:42 -!- oerjan has set topic: The welcomes of doom | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
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09:00:38 <lambdabot> Roujo said 2d 12h 24m 11s ago: Oh hai
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13:42:50 <boily> good dreamy morning!
13:43:12 <boily> I finally had a dream where something happens!
13:43:46 <boily> granted, I was only pestling cheese in a salad bowl with a potato masher, but still! it was something!
13:43:57 <Roujo> You gotta take what you can, eh
13:44:12 <boily> who knows, maybe I was cooking pierogies...
13:44:36 <Roujo> Probably. P(that) = .76
13:45:26 <boily> the first time I tried, they were delicious. but because I had never seen them, I didn't have a reference scale. a girl at school who saw them told me they were strangely gigantic :D
13:45:41 <boily> tried IRL, s'entend.
13:47:01 <boily> there's a nice café on côte st-luc near villa-maria that serves brunches on Sunday mornings. there's always a bunch of nicely burned pierogies with your plate. they taste good.
13:58:14 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH. someone asked a question on SO, the question was closed because there's an accepted answer, and the answer links to a dead github repo.
13:58:31 * boily smashes his forehead on an empty corner of his desk.
14:01:15 <metasepia> Your divination: "Shake" to "Shake"
14:05:23 -!- Pouti has joined.
14:05:54 <boily> Pouti: c'est que tu fais là, toi?
14:06:32 <boily> Roujo: stop conspiring with my bro behind my back, you fiend.
14:08:12 <boily> `learn Pouti is boily's brother. he's also Canadian, and he closes the Roujo pointer loop.
14:09:03 <Roujo> `relcome "The Boilys"
14:09:06 <HackEgo> "The: Boilys": Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:09:06 <boily> no worries. he's a nice guy. worse that can happen is for you to be even more Canadianned than usual. probably some weirdness and vile puns on the side.
14:10:36 <boily> Taneb: don't you have a brother too?
14:11:02 -!- mnoqy has joined.
14:15:04 <Taneb> boily, yes I have a brother
14:15:39 <Taneb> He's not that in to esolanging
14:15:48 <Taneb> You can find him playing League of Legends most hours of the day
14:17:45 <boily> oh. that most common modern drug.
14:19:58 <Roujo> saturationsaturationsaturationsaturation
14:20:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yeah
14:20:15 <boily> Roujo: doing chemistry?
14:20:29 <Roujo> Nah, just laughing
14:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, that's a horrible thing to say about your brother
14:20:38 <Roujo> It's just that I don't play LoL, so I might have done it wrong >_>
14:20:57 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, he's my younger brother, it's practically my duty to say horrible things about him
14:21:46 <Roujo> No, it's your duty to set an example and support him
14:22:00 <Roujo> At least, that's what I try to do with my younger brothers >_>
14:22:54 <boily> my brother and I are the same, but him more than me.
14:23:35 <boily> btw, it's time to ask the The Question.
14:23:45 <boily> Pouti, what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
14:24:00 <Roujo> dat gratuitous tréma
14:24:02 <boily> (I already know the coördinates)
14:24:16 <boily> Roujo: it is fär from gratuitous̈! it
14:25:30 <boily> that's beside the (pair of) point.
14:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> shouldn't he be filling that information into jsvine's survey anyway
14:26:48 <Roujo> Shouldn't boily pretty much know the information already anyway? =P
14:26:50 <boily> of course, but I think we don't have access to the results yet.
14:27:29 <boily> Roujo: about the coördinates, yes. but not the body weigh. I'd say about the same as me, but you never know.
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14:28:06 <Pouti> I will settle the matter : N 46, W71, 145 lbs
14:28:25 <Roujo> 5-letter nicks UNITE
14:29:33 <boily> see how us Canadians are polite and coöperative! our entries are well formatted and meaningful!
14:29:37 * boily glares at FreeFull
14:29:40 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
14:30:35 <Roujo> cat boily | cat > boily
14:30:57 <Roujo> cat boily | echo > boily
14:31:06 <Roujo> `run cat dog | echo > dog
14:32:19 -!- Pouti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:32:36 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: no idea.
14:33:06 <boily> meanwhile, I hate python. “TypeError: browse() takes at least 4 arguments (4 given)”.
14:40:28 <FreeFull> Yeah, I'm a thin vertical thing rather than a vegetable
14:43:34 <Roujo> They're not mutually exclusive, though
14:44:00 <boily> so, FreeFull is a carrot?
14:49:05 -!- hogeyui____ has joined.
14:49:22 * boily shoots Roujo with a punctual bow
14:49:31 <Roujo> You're late, boily
14:49:35 <Roujo> Doesn't work like that
14:51:12 <boily> time is of no importance. space doesn't matter. empty your mind, open your soul, and receive the blessings of a Happy Meal® toy.
14:57:09 <Roujo> Thinking of Maud, you forget everything else
15:01:38 <Roujo> cat pacifism >> boily
15:04:28 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
15:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> what's the difference between cat pacifism and normal pacifism
15:05:05 <Roujo> Aloofness, for one
15:07:25 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
15:10:25 <Vorpal> <boily> ooooooh. Vorpal has a secret identity! <-- it was my previous nick
15:11:08 -!- Pouti has joined.
15:11:35 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I am not violent. it is Beneficial Preemptive Behaviour Correction (ISO 12800⅞)
15:12:47 <Pouti> Just trying to see if i can create photoinduced anistropy in chalcogenide glasses by appropriate exposure to linearly polarized light
15:13:47 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: Why do you associate belgium with hitler
15:19:07 <boily> @tell oerjan according to wiki's chart of diaphonemes to regional dialects, /poːlət/.
15:20:17 <Roujo> `echo @tell Roujo Hays
15:20:42 <Roujo> Well that's a shame
15:21:26 <boily> Roujo: HackEgo is unloopable. it inserts a ZWSP before any /^[^:alpha:]/.
15:22:03 <Roujo> So it can't give commands to other bots, got it
15:22:17 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:22:21 <Deewiant> Just make a bot with a prefix that matches [:alpha:]
15:22:24 <Roujo> At least I got it right =P
15:22:40 <Roujo> ~echo @tell Roujo Hats
15:23:08 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "Roujo!~Roujo@unaffiliated/roujo", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo Hats"]}
15:23:15 * boily pats metasepia and gives a candy jellyfish
15:23:24 <Roujo> Right, @echo is a bit more involved =P
15:23:47 <boily> for no apparent reason, lambdabots picks up logs from my bot.
15:28:27 <AnotherTest> that ignored the first character of every message send by hackego, you could make it loop
15:28:43 <AnotherTest> unless there is another defence mechanism I'm not aware of :(
15:29:19 <Roujo> Alternatively, I could just make Emily ignore any invisible character
15:30:04 <Roujo> But that would break bold and color, and I don't want that
15:30:57 <boily> you ought to make your bot join this channel.
15:31:09 <Roujo> I should fix her first
15:31:20 <Roujo> For some reason, her prefix detection is broken
15:31:52 <Roujo> She'll react to any keyword she knows, even if it wasn't addressed to her
15:33:23 <boily> I'm curious to see what would the aftermath of an epic fungot/Emily match would be...
15:33:23 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell over....
15:36:04 <Roujo> I'll try to fix her, then I'll bring her in
15:36:20 <Roujo> However, the nickname "Emily" is already taken
15:36:28 <Roujo> As is "Aurora", her usual alternative
15:37:24 <boily> fungot: any advice on an alternate name?
15:37:24 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week,
15:37:39 <Roujo> I don't know how to take this
15:37:53 <boily> fungot: any different advice?
15:37:55 <Roujo> I'll start by fixing her =P
15:38:03 <AnotherTest> boily: my bot (if that was the one you meant) is even more annoying than fungot, if turned on
15:38:03 <fungot> AnotherTest: perhaps, if i could but learn is when you're fairies, you probably want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has. you came through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through
15:38:35 <AnotherTest> fizzie: There's a loop in the markov chain :(
15:38:44 <boily> Roujo: you could nick her "AndThrough" for the match.
15:38:58 <boily> AnotherTest: you have a bot? never seen it.
15:39:15 <AnotherTest> if it learns from the channel, here is a fix: through and this goes on
15:39:15 <Roujo> Twist: AnotherTest is his own bot
15:39:44 <AnotherTest> possibly another fix: and through because I don't know the other
15:41:08 <AnotherTest> due to people on another network spamming it
15:41:09 <boily> not a problem. I am intrigued, and of a experimento-scientific mood today.
15:41:30 <AnotherTest> well I guess that's what's happenes when you give a bot op
15:41:45 <AnotherTest> it has a cool mini-programming-language-kind of thing too
15:43:35 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It's not the only one.
15:45:03 <fizzie> AnotherTest: And it might not be an actual loop in the model, I think there's some bug in fungot's interpretation of them; because I've debugged some earlier loops by asking my Perl prototyping code for the actual probabilities, and they're not quite loopy.
15:45:03 <fungot> fizzie: is that something you know and and the cases that required to actually mutate the original ( sorted, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
15:46:47 <fizzie> AnotherTest: (If it is an actual loop, your fixes might not help, because it's most likely a loop with a longer context only; I think I need to add and through and through some exits through and through and like this.)
15:46:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:47:01 <fizzie> Ah, well, fungot style...
15:47:01 <fungot> fizzie:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
15:47:29 <AnotherTest> boily: okay here it comes. I can't enable its text generator immediately because it doesn't have a memory file yet
15:48:04 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It's in fact a loop from some other style, copied over to fungot style.
15:48:04 <fungot> fizzie: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there ain't no difference from before! i'm being held prisoner on other subjects, the european council decided at its meeting on 30 april, or even this very difficult issue is discussed, it should be deleted, not merged. but new england flood of may, 1765, curwen's only child, it's ancient history now...
15:49:21 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:51:32 <fizzie> As a general rule, the smaller models are somewhat more prone to repetition for the obvious reason.
15:51:49 <fizzie> Also that's a nice blend of europarl, lovecraft and whatnot.
15:52:03 -!- Pouti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:52:17 <fizzie> irc and youtube, I think.
15:52:54 <metasepia> The European Parliament (abbreviated as Europarl or the EP) is the directly elected parliamentary institution of the European Union (EU).
15:55:05 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
15:55:28 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of the state of the economy?
15:55:31 <fungot> fizzie: i voted in favour of the abolition of controls on the phasing out of single-hull oil tankers and safety in our energy policy. first of all, i would like to argue for continuing development aid. the commission is keeping a close watch on affairs, and this aid begins with the definition of works contracts, public authorities and administrations have an important role in fnord terrorists crossing from its territory into ir
15:56:01 <fizzie> Oh no, fnord terrorists.
15:56:31 <fizzie> (Also: phasing out safety in our energy policy?)
15:57:43 <fizzie> fungot: Are you in favour of phasing out safety in general?
15:58:04 <fizzie> I think it got tired of me.
15:58:28 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:02:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, i plead for fnord action at the same time, try to improve the existing regulations in this sphere, like others, i approve of parliament's insistence in giving the european parliament should contemplate a debate at european level.
16:03:23 -!- conehead has joined.
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16:04:44 <Roujo> samantus: Command!
16:04:55 <Roujo> samantus: Bod is my bod
16:04:57 <Roujo> samantus: Bod is my bod
16:04:58 <Roujo> samantus: Bod is my bod
16:04:59 <Roujo> samantus: Bod is my bod
16:05:33 <Roujo> Most of them being about bod
16:06:17 <HackEgo> id: "Test.";: No such user
16:06:19 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched ...
16:06:43 <AnotherTest> Ok I need to change the character that starts a command...
16:06:53 <AnotherTest> but I don't have access... so I need to restart it :(
16:07:18 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:10:05 <Roujo> All that's missing is a nick, now
16:13:32 -!- Emilie has joined.
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16:14:57 <Roujo> She has a couple of quirks, still
16:15:04 <Roujo> But she should be alright
16:16:10 <Roujo> Yeah, that has been on the todo list for way too damn long
16:16:22 <Emilie> Roujo: Results of 3d5: 10 <3
16:16:23 <Emilie> Roujo: Rolls: 4, 3, 3 <3
16:16:42 <Roujo> Yeah, sounds like it wouldn't be use by accident
16:17:20 -!- samantus has joined.
16:17:23 <Roujo> %regex compile Hi, my name is (\w) and I'm ([0-9]+) years old
16:17:23 <Emilie> Roujo: Pattern compiled! <3
16:17:34 <Roujo> %regex match Hi, my name is Roujo and I'm 22 years old
16:17:35 <AnotherTest> I'll have "" for the command language and '' for the configuration
16:17:52 <samantus> AnotherTest: Didnt work samantus
16:18:00 <Roujo> %regex compile Hi, my name is ([A-z]+) and I'm ([0-9]+) years old
16:18:00 <Emilie> Roujo: Pattern compiled! <3
16:18:03 <Roujo> %regex match Hi, my name is Roujo and I'm 22 years old
16:18:04 <Emilie> Roujo: Group #1: Roujo <3
16:18:05 <Emilie> Roujo: Group #2: 22 <3
16:18:16 <Roujo> I should probably tone down the <3 part =P
16:19:30 <Gregor> 22 isn't less than three at all.
16:19:36 <Gregor> 22 is, in fact, greater than three.
16:20:44 <jconn> AnotherTest: |value error: abc
16:22:24 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:23:43 -!- samantus has joined.
16:24:00 <AnotherTest> "" id "I think this was the best option... if it works.";
16:24:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:24:24 <AnotherTest> I had a lot of trouble with this bot on a different network
16:24:50 <AnotherTest> 1) because it annoys people who write in caps to much (along with other stuff)
16:25:05 <AnotherTest> 2) because it eventually tries to kick those people (although it's not admin here)
16:25:23 <AnotherTest> 3) because it has a (disabled) feature to annoy people at random
16:26:01 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:26:14 <Bike> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 uh, wow.
16:26:45 <AnotherTest> In other words, the most annoying bot ever
16:26:49 -!- samantus has joined.
16:28:06 <fizzie> Point 4 looks more like a pro than a con.
16:28:38 <fizzie> It privmsging me "<samantus> Oops, seems like something went wrong..." after that comment was definitely more a con than a pro, though.
16:28:38 <samantus> fizzie: It privmsging me oops seems like something went wrong after that comment was definitely more a con
16:28:52 <fizzie> It seems to: keep happening.
16:29:42 <Roujo> Bike: Well crap =/
16:30:37 <AnotherTest> fizzie: does it happen for every message you send?
16:31:09 <AnotherTest> I think everyone is getting annoyed, because the command character is officially the empty string
16:31:15 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched ...
16:31:33 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:32:45 <AnotherTest> I hope it's fixed now, and it won't annoy you anymore
16:32:48 -!- samantus has joined.
16:33:28 <AnotherTest> pff, "" is a bad choice, the configuration file thinks that's a string
16:34:21 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:35:09 -!- samantus has joined.
16:35:10 <AnotherTest> I would probably have done all of this in some empty channel
16:46:36 <Roujo> That would probably be a good idea, yeah =P
16:47:20 -!- augur has joined.
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16:48:14 <boily> back from lunch. so samantus is another's?
16:48:14 <samantus> boily: So samantus is anothers
16:55:21 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched ...
16:55:41 <AnotherTest> It does, but lambdabot reacts due to the >
16:57:35 <samantus> AnotherTest: Something like samantus
16:57:47 <samantus> AnotherTest: Not something like samantus
16:58:24 <boily> AnotherTest: I agree. your bot is most uniquely annoying :p
16:58:48 <Roujo> Well, we can always just talk in notices
16:58:58 <Roujo> But that's a tad annoying-er
16:59:54 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure lambdabot can in fact ignore someone, but you need to be a more powerfuller person to set it to do so.
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17:00:16 <boily> who is the powerfullest of this channel? is it elliott?
17:00:29 <fizzie> In regards to lambdabot, that's a safe bet.
17:00:33 <fizzie> (Doesn't he run it these days?)
17:00:52 <fizzie> I believe there are some other lambdabot operators on channel too.
17:00:56 -!- ^v has joined.
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17:06:10 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a list.
17:06:41 <Gregor> Only admins are permitted to know who the admins are.
17:06:42 <fizzie> It'd be "@ignore + somebody", but that also needs privvelegs.
17:07:50 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:08:24 <Roujo> Now that's just sad
17:08:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:10:24 <Fiora> sorry, you can't rely on a bot to check your privilege for you! :3
17:10:39 <shachaf> Gregor: Not even admins are permitted to know.
17:12:30 <samantus> > lambdabot is an annoying person/bot.
17:12:31 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
17:13:00 <samantus> > boily is an annoying person/bot.
17:13:01 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
17:13:37 <fizzie> Nice outlook on the world: everyone's an annoying person/bot.
17:14:00 <AnotherTest> ]]whois $x = add $x " is a VERY annoying person/bot (just not boily and AnotherTest)";
17:14:11 <samantus> > fizzie is an annoying person/bot.
17:14:26 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
17:14:37 <AnotherTest> ]]whois $x = add $x " is a VERY annoying person/bot (just not boily and AnotherTest)";
17:14:38 * ^v knocks out kmc with a hammer and begins peeling off large portions of his skin, ^v then ties kmc to a ceiling fan where he repeatively is hit in the head by lamps
17:15:19 <Roujo> Internet is going down here
17:15:19 <AnotherTest> ]]let whois $x = add $x " is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)";
17:15:24 <boily> ^v: what did kmc do to warrant such helicoïdal ceiling punishment?
17:15:34 <samantus> > Roujo is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)
17:15:35 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Roujo'Not in scope: `is'
17:16:12 <AnotherTest> It could do if statements although I think I would have to add a built-in function for that
17:20:19 -!- Emilie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:23:05 <boily> Harken to the Voice of KmcKmcKmcKmcKmc! Listen to His Paroles and Questionments! Hear the Ceiling Fan Fwop Him Around Lamps!
17:23:17 <fizzie> I was under the impression that either kmc or shachaf were lambdabot mad-mins. If that's the case, one of them could maybe have it ignore that bot?
17:23:43 <fizzie> (There's only so many "parse errors" and "not in scopes" that a person can take.)
17:24:06 <boily> can you chain metasepia to the haskell delegation?
17:24:25 <boily> fizzie: behold the uncropped error messages that a marine animal can produce!
17:24:30 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I don't see parse error there :<removethis, it's to avoid warn>)
17:24:31 <Bike> ~echo ]] add "1 " (mul "+ 1 " 5);
17:24:42 <lambdabot> `.' (imported from Data.Function),
17:24:45 <kmc> but i think shachaf is
17:25:05 <FreeFull> :t let (.:) = (.).(.) in mconcat .: replicate
17:25:56 <samantus> > 1* 5* 5* 5* 5* 5* 5* 5* 5* 5* 5
17:26:29 <AnotherTest> I wonder whether I an actually trick it into an infinte loop
17:26:46 <fizzie> New bot implies new botloops, I suppose.
17:27:14 <fizzie> Oh, that sort of loop.
17:27:38 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|jconn)!
17:27:50 <shachaf> (unless that's what "mad-min" means)
17:27:51 -!- asie has joined.
17:27:55 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|jconn|samantus)!
17:28:12 <kmc> why was I attacked by ^v just now
17:28:20 <samantus> AnotherTest: If we get fungot to say samantus
17:28:23 <fungot> AnotherTest: madam president, it is customary to accept roll-call votes after time. finally, i want to highlight the derisory nature of this parliament the development and promotion of cultural diversity, but these certainly will not be helpful to consumers either, since the proposal has been welcomed by many speakers in the debate, because peace, one of your colleagues will be voting in the various countries of the union, not
17:28:26 <boily> fizzie: could you subtly, like, I don't know, maybe accidentally, perhaps, unignore metasepia? like, in a totally fortuitous manner.
17:28:47 <Bike> somehow i doubt nixon has said "samantus"
17:29:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input `,'
17:29:03 <fungot> AnotherTest: commission. ( de) mr president, i wish to emphasise that between the first and the third pillar into the community legal order and its shared institutions mean that it has to be done in relation to farming. one of the most alert, able and fnord of this parliament, as the treaties have to be accompanied by an exhaustive study. the council could not amend the social partners, the us should pause and reflect on the co
17:29:04 <boily> samantus: who was kmc? what was his secret identity? is he also Vorpal?
17:29:04 <samantus> boily: His secret identity is he also vorpal
17:29:15 <kmc> samantus: what do you do?
17:29:28 <samantus> AnotherTest: Fungot already ignores samantus
17:29:29 <fungot> AnotherTest: madam president, i also believe it is most unfortunate that an exception should not constitute a means of channelling the future funding of development projects in south africa, the meda programme was threatened until last night. the years go by and i hope that you will be putting forward ideas for joint management and, above all, we have no truck with greedy financial cheats certainly not with the intention of the
17:29:37 <fizzie> AnotherTest: That's what the ^ignore there was all about.
17:29:52 <fizzie> boily: What, do you have a fungot botloop you've been itching to test or something?
17:29:53 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i will conclude, if we could in fact stir up ill-feeling, resentment and a great french diplomat used to say, therefore, that learning at least two areas: the establishment of information systems is what it is defending. this is a growing problem. according to the most recent elections in east timor, despite being full of good intentions, through good management of these processes and three-quarters of the
17:30:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: parse error on input `;'
17:30:22 <boily> fizzie: me? oh. no. absolutely not. what would make you believe that?
17:30:43 <fizzie> europarl is nice, but does result in somewhat overly long lines.
17:30:44 <Bike> pretty sure you need fizmin powers.
17:30:51 <fizzie> (Those politicians, they're so verbose.)
17:31:05 <AnotherTest> samantus doesn't seem to be learning a lot
17:31:05 <samantus> AnotherTest: To be accompanied by an exhaustive study the council could not amend the social partners the us should pause and reflect on the everyones an annoying
17:31:20 <fungot> AnotherTest: i think i made myself understood. indeed i fear that we would like to know the commission's point of view, we in the european parliament and the constitutional court' s statute. this will provide the opportunity for which i thank you for them, because they too have their dignity and it is time for us to develop a strong eu foreign policy and development aid for bolivia. as one of you makes use of funds for objectiv
17:32:27 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|jconn|samantus)!
17:32:38 <fizzie> I suppose in the interests of scientific inquiry...
17:33:10 <AnotherTest> fizze: could you remove samantus from that list just to test :D?
17:33:10 <samantus> AnotherTest: You remove samantus from that list just to test or something
17:33:28 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|jconn)!
17:33:42 <AnotherTest> okay, I will close it if things get too bad
17:33:55 <fizzie> I'll re-add it if I stop monitoring the situation.
17:34:07 <fungot> AnotherTest: mr president, commissioner, we expect really concrete proposals permitting very rapid progress. in the second world war. of course, it will be particularly beneficial in all aspects relating to sexual and reproductive health, the protection of the environment and the rapporteur will have the possibility of declaring biological rest periods on the basis of article 103a, analysis and an indication of the european fam
17:34:07 <fungot> samantus: i should like to thank the rapporteur for his report on the revision of the treaty of amsterdam provided the european union
17:34:07 <samantus> fungot: Treaty of amsterdam provided the european fam
17:34:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input `,'
17:34:08 <fungot> samantus: the fnord report, and i hope that the council understands parliament' s committee chairpersons, whose work will be needed, since illegal immigrants living in several european countries.
17:34:08 <samantus> fungot: Whose work will be voting in the debate because peace one of you makes use of funds for objectiv
17:34:08 <fungot> samantus: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, we have the difficulty of attracting researchers to this field.
17:34:08 <fizzie> Anyhow, the logs have some quite impressive botloops.
17:34:08 <samantus> fungot: Of attracting researchers to this field
17:34:09 <fungot> samantus: mr president, commissioner, i will reiterate the facts of that case. but the court of justice. examples of this could now be effectively carried by members of parliament have shown throughout the conciliation procedure has thus very quickly led to a serious irregularity: we are no nearer to achieving the objectives it has set up a group of fnord, a serious malfunction in the department of mrs wallstrm, has announced,
17:34:09 <samantus> fungot: Parliament have shown throughout the conciliation procedure has thus very quickly led to a serious malfunction in the second world war of course it will be putting forward ideas for joint management and above all we have a bot
17:34:11 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|jconn|samantus)!
17:34:20 <boily> holy botloop, batman.
17:34:42 <fizzie> I guess my ^ignore was kind of unnecessary, because fungot would've stopped at that point even without it.
17:34:43 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, there are some things which have direct impact. years ago, the european institutions.
17:34:50 <fizzie> (There's the only-four-messages-in-a-row rule.)
17:34:55 <ion> Respecting the RFC would obliterate any possibility of a bot loop.
17:35:09 <boily> ion: there are standards?
17:35:10 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|jconn|samantus)!
17:35:17 <fizzie> ion: That'd be so 1980s.
17:35:22 <ion> boily: For bot/human communication, yes.
17:35:36 <Bike> boily: bots are supposed to use notices instead of privmsgs.
17:35:47 <ion> boily: There’s a dedicated command for bot messages. Bots aren’t allowed to trigger stuff from them, only human messages.
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17:36:22 <AnotherTest> ion: samantus isn't a bot, it's a real person!
17:36:45 <HackEgo> azaq23: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:36:49 <ion> I will only believe she is a real person when she adds a random delay before responding.
17:37:09 <boily> samantus: what nationality are you?
17:37:55 <AnotherTest> ion: I did that once. Except it wasn't random. I calcuated using the average reading and typing speed of a human
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17:38:42 <samantus> > ion is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)ion is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)ion is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)ion is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)ion is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to
17:38:43 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatche...
17:38:59 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:42:55 <HackEgo> samantus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:43:35 <AnotherTest> (I guess since he didn't get that yet, now was the time)
17:44:13 <AnotherTest> I fear it is generating a very long message
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17:48:03 <fizzie> There is a noticeable delay when fungot is generating long sequences of babble; it's perhaps not terribly optimized code.
17:48:03 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, commissioner, that those of us from andalusia ask this parliament to get to grips with this is to be hoped that parliament will probably extend tomorrow does nobody any service. then, things will change and meetings will become frequent, because that is what we need now is to join.
17:48:19 <boily> are there any best practices on optimising befunge?
17:48:45 <samantus> AnotherTest: Yes i am powerful
17:49:04 <fizzie> boily: Not that I know of, but you could derive some by looking at the implementation strategies in implementations that see use in production environments.
17:49:15 <AnotherTest> samantus: I didn't ask you. I told you. Do you understand the difference?
17:49:15 <samantus> AnotherTest: Understand the difference
17:49:48 <boily> fizzie: you mean to say there is live befunge in production environments?
17:49:59 <fizzie> boily: Well, what do you call fungot?
17:49:59 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, thank you for your thoughts, suggestions and criticisms. this also offers new opportunities and new resources for investment in third countries.
17:50:20 <boily> fizzie: oh hm. yeah. I had a brain lapse for a moment there.
17:51:10 <AnotherTest> fizzie: the difference between samantus and fungot is that samantus uses words from the input as the first words for its message. I'm not sure whether this is actually good.
17:51:10 <samantus> AnotherTest: Its message im not sure whether this is to be a good idea yeah
17:51:10 <fungot> AnotherTest: mr president, safety aspects also militate against completion of the internal market.
17:51:54 <fizzie> fungot: Stop trying to show off your education by using words like "militate".
17:51:55 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, we live in the dignity that is the difference between an observatory and an agency. this agency will be active soon, because it would then be the international community must not only ensure that appropriate rules exist. the mafia does not exist.
17:52:57 <samantus> AnotherTest: Would you like another botwar
17:53:20 <AnotherTest> fizzie: we could have them join another channel
17:53:30 <AnotherTest> I think samantus could learn a great deal from fungot
17:53:31 <samantus> AnotherTest: Samantus could learn a great deal from fungot
17:53:31 <fungot> AnotherTest: mr president, firstly, to ensure that the authority at community level. another point which gives cause for concern. nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that the chapter on employment in the european consumer.
17:54:04 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I can join it wherever you like, but it won't reply more than four lines consecutively to any one person, to prevent loops.
17:57:10 <fizzie> Not on a per-channel basis, no.
17:57:18 <fizzie> And running a second instance sounds a bit too much like work.
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18:26:31 <coppro> ugh, why doesn't tr do its output incrementally?
18:26:50 <coppro> anyone know a utility that will?
18:27:38 <boily> coppro: you could “perl -e” it?
18:27:59 <fizzie> GNU sed has a -u "unbuffered" mode.
18:28:39 <Deewiant> "load minimal amounts of data from the input files and flush the output buffers more often"
18:28:51 <Deewiant> "unbuffered" = "flush buffers more often"?
18:29:02 <Deewiant> I thought "unbuffered" = "no buffers to flush"
18:29:21 <boily> maybe they mean medium-rare buffered?
18:29:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Buffer both input and output as minimally as practical," to quote the manual. (Guess the name is a bit of a misnomer.)
18:30:43 <Deewiant> If it passes values greater than 1 to read I am disappoint
18:31:12 <fizzie> I think you will be disappoint, then.
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19:02:01 <Bike> http://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_philipsbrorochure1971_11672553/P850_P855_P860_Brochure_1971#page/n1/mode/2up memory cycle time is down to 1.6 µsec.
19:02:50 <Fiora> Bike: 840 nanoseconds!!
19:02:58 <Fiora> up to 32000 16-bit words!
19:03:06 <Bike> not one, but two fortran compilers
19:03:13 <Fiora> gosh old computers are great <3
19:03:16 <Bike> and two different one-pass assemblers
19:03:19 <Taneb> I wrote a program that draws the dragon curve
19:03:42 <Taneb> The dragon curve it drew is here: http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/Nathan's_Stuff/d.svg
19:04:02 <zzo38> What might be useful for some people is a Lisp variant which is designed for compiling into limited domain-specific virtual machines by programming their specification using that programming language itself; it would also include an interpreter to run directly and then compile whatever needs to compile, into a different VM.
19:04:24 <fizzie> Taneb: I made one too! http://zem.fi/?logo=ldragon
19:05:01 <Taneb> Your one is more animaty than mine
19:05:20 <Taneb> But mine is more detailed than yours
19:05:23 <Bike> zzo38: i'm not sure i can imagine a specification language for arbitrary machines.
19:05:34 <fizzie> Taneb: You can replace "ldragon" with "ifsdragon" to get the IFS version.
19:06:07 <boily> there's an IFS version of the dragon curve?
19:06:23 <boily> woooooooah... duuuuuuude...
19:06:25 <fizzie> boily: Yes. It's just two affine transformations.
19:06:55 <fizzie> [0.5 -0.5 0; 0.5 0.5 0] and [-0.5 -0.5 1; 0.5 -0.5 0].
19:07:08 <boily> fizzie: that reminds me I hacked a javascript IFS generator some time ago. it crashed firefox in a rather spectacular manner.
19:07:46 <zzo38> There is a dragon curve in TeX, too.
19:08:20 <Bike> well, i guess you could do verilog or something, that's probably not what you have in mind though, and you've already complained about things you've wanted in verilog.
19:08:48 <boily> hum. I have an unknown «.sln» file in a temp folder somewhere. what the fungot could it be.
19:08:48 <fungot> boily: madam president, mr salafranca, i understood your excellent report on which everyone agrees is needed at the end of the british government and of suppliers of internet products. they are now forced to recognize that, in drawing up my report.
19:09:27 <fizzie> The end of the British government? Sounds dramatic.
19:09:51 <boily> a Visual Studio Solution file??? Sounds foreboding.
19:10:05 <boily> (seriously, what the hell am I doing with that.)
19:10:24 <Bike> http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/british.html Well
19:10:31 <boily> anyone here who uses Visual Studio?
19:11:10 <zzo38> Bike : An idea is, the program will be written in this Lisp variant, which has the codes to specify translation into a simpler VM, such as checking if it is adding, dividing, etc, and then also features specific to the target VM.
19:11:45 <Bike> i dont unerstand.
19:12:27 <fizzie> boily: Does Visual Studio 6 count?
19:12:49 <boily> no idea. want to check the file?
19:13:07 <fizzie> I've always wanted to.
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19:14:00 <fizzie> (Version 6 didn't have .sln files, though; it's from the versions numbered 20xx, I think.)
19:14:15 <boily> darn. oh well, here goes the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xif4owzeba45a41/electro.sln
19:14:54 <fizzie> Unless they've changed things around, that's not a Visual Studio solution file.
19:15:11 <fizzie> It at least used to be a text-based format.
19:15:22 <fizzie> See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb165951(v=vs.90).aspx for a VS2008 example, for example.
19:16:36 <boily> the file utility only says that it's data.
19:16:41 <zzo38> Bike: I don't really entirely know either. What I mean though is you have some function which reads some intermediate instructions (it might even read itself!) and then compiles it as a add instruction, branch instruction, etc, into a bytecode buffer, which might be used by a secondary optimizer and various other things, pass that result to another function to build the executable file for the VM.
19:17:16 <Bike> oh, so just providing a standard VM to assemble from. Is that like LLVM?
19:17:34 <zzo38> Bike: I suppose a little bit like it, but not really a lot like it.
19:18:23 <boily> zzo38: you're particularly hthian today, if I may say so.
19:18:53 <fizzie> boily: It's a sound file.
19:19:04 <zzo38> For one thing LLVM is for more powerful computers, not domain-specific VM, and lacks some other features; it also has some features which are too strong, and doesn't generally write itself (it isn't Lisp).
19:19:12 <fizzie> boily: A not too shabby-sounding techno song, based on the first five seconds.
19:19:41 <boily> fizzie: oh. what did you use to play it?
19:19:47 <fizzie> boily: I don't know how to determine the real sampling rate, but you can get a listenable version with sox -t raw -e signed-integer -b 16 -c 1 -r 16000 electro.sln something.wav.
19:19:58 <fizzie> It might be accidentally down- or upsampled a bit.
19:20:07 <fizzie> Also mixed to single channel from two, or something.
19:20:41 <fizzie> Asterisk has a linear-pcm file format called "SLINEAR" with a .sln extension.
19:20:51 <boily> a remnant from asterisk!
19:21:23 <boily> now I understand why I had an mp3 along with it. those were experiments with Asterisk.
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19:21:58 <fizzie> How similar does the mp3 sound to that sox output?
19:22:12 <boily> lemme upload the mp3.
19:23:16 <boily> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/Electronic_Attack_-_Salzmanufaktur_-_Minimental.mp3
19:23:19 <zzo38> Some machines I expect can be target can include Z-machine, Nintendo Family Computer, Glulx, Z80, and others.
19:23:58 <zzo38> (and MegaZeux Robotic bytecode)
19:24:00 <AnotherTest> I'm having trouble connecting my TI84+ with my laptop with debian on it
19:24:56 <fizzie> boily: Seems that it should've been 8 kHz, which I suppose makes more sense in a telephony context. (Though not *that* much more sense! We live in the age of AMR-WB and all.)
19:27:26 <Bike> hm, maybe in my FPGA class i could try out some fucked up processor architectures, like tree-based
19:28:15 <pikhq> fizzie: Not to mention Opus.
19:28:46 <Bike> zzo38: any suggestions for fucked up architectures?
19:28:46 <pikhq> But alas, 8kHz 8 bit mu-law will be here forever.
19:29:01 <fizzie> Funny fact: "typical" pitch for a male speaker (around 100 Hz) is not part of the frequency spectrum carried by a regular telephone line (300 to 3400 Hz), yet people don't perceive a notable difference in the pitch of a speaker over the phone.
19:29:02 <boily> fizzie: well, Asterisk is a little bit weird when it comes to sampling rates.
19:29:21 <Bike> fizzie: we don't?
19:29:22 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know.
19:29:30 <pikhq> fizzie: That figure seems remarkably low.
19:29:34 <Bike> zzo38: come on, you know all kinds of weird architectures.
19:30:09 <AnotherTest> any suggestions for connecting my ti device :(?
19:30:25 <fizzie> Bike: Well, I mean, you can say it sounds vaguely "low-quality", but that's about all. (Because the harmonics are all in the same place.)
19:30:28 <zzo38> Bike: Look in esolang wiki; some things I have written about and some you can see in other pages I have linked to
19:30:34 <boily> AnotherTest: /dev/ttyUSB0 like a manly man?
19:30:46 <Bike> wow, a whole wiki for weird computer stuff. why didn't i think of that!
19:30:53 <Bike> (seriously thanks i actually wasn't)
19:31:07 <fizzie> pikhq: Well, maybe it's closer to 120 Hz, but it's somewhere around there.
19:31:42 <Bike> fizzie: oh, is it the missing... uh... whatever you call it. where you cut out the "main" (wrong word) tone but all the higher harmonics are there so people hear it illusionarily
19:31:54 <Bike> missing fundamental!
19:32:46 <fizzie> Bike: It's that sort of thing, right.
19:33:01 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that the *low* end of a tenor's range is 130 Hz.
19:33:09 <Bike> oh, it's in the wikipedia article. "Most common telephones cannot reproduce sounds lower than 300 Hz, but a male voice has a fundamental frequency approximately 150 Hz. Because of the missing fundamental effect, male voices still sound male over the telephone.[20]"
19:33:22 <zzo38> Bike: Some of the things in esolang wiki are related to computer hardware, so that is the parts I meant.
19:33:28 <fizzie> Well, you know, speaking is not singing.
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19:33:35 <Bike> zzo38: right. i'll look, once i get my fpga
19:33:40 <AnotherTest> boily: would it help if I installed libusb
19:33:48 <fizzie> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004974.html has a graph where the range seems to be something like 80-140 Hz.
19:33:52 <pikhq> fizzie: No, but the singing pitches roughly correspond to speaking pitch.
19:34:14 <fizzie> (It's about finding a relationship between number of offspring and voice pitch.)
19:34:33 <pikhq> Someone who sings tenor will tend to speak at frequencies somewhere within the tenor range.
19:34:53 <zzo38> Another idea I have is Z-machine interpreter in Verilog (or VHDL).
19:35:23 <fizzie> "Stemple, et al., report a mean fundamental frequency for male voices of 106 Hz with a range from 77 Hz to 482 Hz. For female voices the mean was 193 Hz with a range from 137 Hz to 634 Hz. These averages were based on the production of a sustained vowel /a/."
19:36:30 * pikhq *was* aware that a significant amount of the variation in voices was not because of the fundamental frequency, though...
19:37:04 <zzo38> One thing on esolang wiki, though, is TOGA computer; I think it can be implemented using only a small number of 74xx series ICs.
19:37:10 <fizzie> I've never done any speaker identification stuff, and in speech recognition we try our very best to ignore all this speaker-dependent stuff. :p
19:37:39 <Bike> great, now i want to quantify my voice's timbre.
19:37:49 <Fiora> so is the fundamental frequency, like, the lowest peak frequency in a spectrum chart?
19:37:54 <Bike> not that that's a sensible thing, i guess
19:38:32 <fizzie> Bike: You can probably use Praat to start with -- http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/ -- it's very popular, esp. among the more human-oriented folks.
19:38:36 <pikhq> Fiora: Typically. It's also the one of highest amplitude in a spectrum chart.
19:38:50 <Bike> Fiora: when you perceive a pitch what you're actually hearing is some frequency (the fundamental) along with higher "overtones" at integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. so if you talk at 200 Hz, there are overtones at 400, 600, bla bla.
19:38:59 * Fiora pulls up the audacity spectrum plotter thing and tries it on her voice recordings from before
19:39:00 <zzo38> One of the ICs is a programmable binary counter.
19:39:14 <Bike> that's not a real phoneme!!!
19:39:20 <Fiora> 231hz, 459hz, 701hz, 947hz ...
19:39:32 <Fiora> I guess that's pretty near the mean
19:39:39 <fizzie> Fiora: You might want to invest in a piece of software that can generate a spectrogram, things are very much clearer when you get some time dimensions in there.
19:39:57 <fizzie> (At least last I looked, Audacity just computes a spectrum from a selected snippet.)
19:40:00 <boily> Bike: “a” is not a phoneme?
19:40:07 <Bike> well, it's a letter.
19:40:07 <Fiora> yeah, I just selected a medium-pitch vowel sound XD
19:40:22 <Fiora> actually I think it was a schwa.
19:40:30 <pikhq> Got a decent bit of use out of it when I was writing a square wave generator for no good reason.
19:40:33 <fizzie> Fiora: If you plot a spectrogram, you can see the formant tracks with some clarity.
19:40:57 <Bike> shit what's a formant
19:41:12 <fizzie> Bike: They're the resonances of the whatsitcalled, the tube.
19:41:26 <pikhq> It was particularly silly, too. Additive synthesis and dither.
19:41:32 <boily> Bike: significative peaks that uniquely define a sound.
19:41:33 <Bike> no samantus you may fucking not
19:41:34 <samantus> Bike: Samantus you may fucking not
19:41:39 <Bike> haha every time
19:41:44 <fizzie> Bike: Vocal tract! That.
19:41:53 <boily> samantus: flblblblblbl.
19:41:54 <Bike> fizzie: oh like part of the anatomy
19:41:57 <Bike> boily: try saying "wat"
19:42:11 <fizzie> Bike: It gets modelled as a variable-diameter cylinder all the time.
19:42:14 <Bike> no, jjust wat by itself
19:42:56 <boily> yes. I did say wat. maybe with a slight French accent, but wat.
19:43:03 <Bike> just itself on a line.
19:43:37 <boily> samantus: go fungot yourself.
19:43:38 <fungot> boily: we all want to see that our issues are given the opportunity of presenting to you the message that we are one of the points of difference between parliament's committee on the environment, public health and consumer policy are not great in monetary terms to the importance of the issue we are now drafting a european union rule and making it possible for us to do.
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19:43:52 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
19:44:00 <fizzie> The europarl is a bit too noisy for permanent use.
19:44:04 <AnotherTest> boily: You must understand that samantus is still in a young phase of his life. He must learn a lot.
19:44:04 <samantus> AnotherTest: A young phase of his life he must learn a great french diplomat used to be accompanied by an exhaustive study the council could not amend the social partners the us should pause and reflect on the co
19:44:26 <Bike> odd conversation to have on irc
19:44:27 <boily> AnotherTest: has it reached the “no” phase yet?
19:44:34 <boily> Bike: nothing is odd on IRC. hth.
19:44:36 <AnotherTest> fizzie: behold the damage thou hast done! (or rather your bot)
19:44:54 <fungot> fizzie: i understand that far
19:44:57 <Bike> fizzie: well now i'm realizing i've never really looked into the anatomy of speech despite hearing about it :V
19:45:15 <Bike> "there are, like, cords??" -- me
19:45:23 <AnotherTest> samantus: Willst thou draw near the nature of the gods? Draw near them then, in being merciful.
19:45:23 <samantus> AnotherTest: The nature of this could now be effectively carried by a regular telephone line 300 to 3400 hz yet people dont perceive a pitch what youre actually hearing is some frequency the fundamental frequency so if you talk at 200 hz there are some other lambdabot operators on channel too
19:46:36 <Bike> fizzie: oh, reminds me, you know this is up now: http://archive.org/details/bstj-archives
19:46:39 <samantus> AnotherTest: Proud of you samantus
19:46:55 <AnotherTest> Ok, now I'm no longer proud of you. Stupid samantus.
19:46:56 <samantus> AnotherTest: No longer proud of you makes use of funds for objectiv
19:47:06 <fizzie> Bike: I did not know that was up.
19:47:41 <Bike> well now you do. i don't know if it has anything in there that's relevant to you but whatever.
19:47:53 <AnotherTest> samantus: Please tell me something I didn't know.
19:47:53 <samantus> AnotherTest: Please tell me something i didnt ask you i told you do
19:48:02 <fizzie> Bike: I might have cited a BSTJ paper somewhere, there's a lot of "first published there" stuff.
19:48:30 <fizzie> Quite a lot of it is of course bit more telecoms than what I do.
19:48:48 <HackEgo> 1003) <boily> I hate telecom abbreviations I hate telecom abbreviations good morning all I hate telecom abbreviations.
19:49:51 <fizzie> Our colleagues from one floor down have been dabbling with it more, doing things like bandwidth extension. (It's when you have speech gone through something horrible like narrowband AMR, and then you invent spectral content for the >4 kHz band out of whole cloth so that it sounds better.
19:50:28 <fizzie> (Possibly also the low end.)
19:50:51 <boily> one floor down here is an architect company named «Gross Kaplin Coviensky», abbreviated to «GKC».
19:51:09 <fizzie> It's the kind of thing where you need to do a lot of subjective experiments, because optimizing for "sounds good" is kind of hard to objectively measure.
19:51:12 <boily> in French, the letters are homophonous to «j'ai cassé», which means “I broke”. he he he :D
19:51:28 <fizzie> (They've got oodles and oodles of metrics that correlate more and less with subjective test results.)
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19:55:23 <boily> samantus: badger badger badger badger samantus samantus!
19:55:23 <samantus> boily: Badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger samantus samantus
19:56:14 <boily> AnotherTest: I like your bot. the only thing it's missing right now is a good “Error(127)”.
19:57:15 <samantus> > boily is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)
19:57:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `boily'Not in scope: `is'
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20:07:43 <fizzie> I like how sox's -w argument was changed to -2, and now it's -b 16. They just can't make up their minds.
20:07:58 <fizzie> (From "word" to "two bytes" to "bits: 16".)
20:07:58 <AnotherTest> cool, I managed to connect with my calculator, somehow
20:08:28 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds).
20:09:35 -!- sacje has joined.
20:27:58 <kmc> i like how intel ruined the word "word"
20:28:45 <Fiora> double double quadword!
20:31:41 <fizzie> Nasm has db, dw, dd, dq, do and dy for 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 and 256 bit data definition pseudo-ops.
20:32:10 <fizzie> (Byte, word, dword, qword, octoword and... well, ymm-register-word.)
20:32:18 <fizzie> (And of course also dt for "tenbyte".)
20:32:50 <Fiora> I've never used do and dy, I guess
20:33:41 <fizzie> They don't accept numeric constants, the manual says.
20:33:53 <fizzie> It isn't terribly forthcoming as to what they *do* accept. Strings, I suppose.
20:34:05 <Fiora> that reminds me of the thing I experimented with a bit back, where like, I think nasm didn't support bigints internally, but yasm did?
20:34:20 <Fiora> so like, you could write arbitrary precision arithmetic in your code and yasm wouldn't break but nasm would overflow
20:34:56 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:34:57 <Fiora> maybe that's why it can't do 128-bit constants, because they're larger than the internal integer representation?
20:36:00 <fizzie> It says that you can give a floating-point constant to do.
20:36:09 <Fiora> I guess that'd be 64-bit?
20:36:17 <Fiora> ... 128-bit... floats?
20:36:34 <fizzie> There's an IEEE standard for it.
20:36:34 <Fiora> I could understand that with dt I guess
20:36:41 <Fiora> yeah, but like, do any of the CPUs it does support it? @_@
20:37:00 <fizzie> I don't even know if that's the kind of float it does if you do a do.
20:37:27 <fizzie> "do 1.e+4000 ; IEEE 754r quad precision"
20:37:32 <Fiora> "Native support of 128-bit floats is defined in SPARC V8[22] and V9[23] architectures (e.g. there are 16 quad-precision registers %q0, %q4, ...), but no SPARC CPU implements quad-precision operations in hardware."
20:37:56 <fizzie> NASM wouldn't target SPARC anyway.
20:39:01 <fizzie> For that, possibly "native" support for double-double constants would be better.
20:39:16 <fizzie> It's not quite as good as quadruple-precision, of course.
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20:43:13 <metasepia> The Fiora is a river in northern Lazio and southern Tuscany, which springs from the southern flank of the Monte Amiata, near Santa Fiora.
20:44:38 <fizzie> Asks a random duck in a park.
20:44:49 <fizzie> They're quite knowledgeable about the world.
20:46:05 <boily> oftentimes, the duck down know the fungot out of a subject, but then you neveriver know.
20:46:06 <fungot> boily: it amuses me that he asked a windows admin to send him the output of merge is the remaining case that returns 1?
20:46:28 <boily> fungot: well, I'm having a context problem.
20:46:29 <fungot> boily: they don't know. we can't answer that for him. i was supposed to be snowing anymore, anyway.
20:47:19 <boily> fungot: not for a few months yet, but don't worry, we'll get snowed in as usual. 'tis Montréal after all...
20:47:20 <fungot> boily: i wait, maybe it will go away) it's 28 degrees. my motherboard says it will always work.
20:47:57 -!- Koen_ has joined.
20:48:13 <metasepia> CYUL 202000Z 22013G19KT 15SM FEW045 SCT090 SCT180 BKN240 28/18 A3001 RMK CU1AC2AC1CI2 AC TR SLP161 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
20:48:19 <boily> 28 degrees indeed.
20:49:12 <zzo38> I have a different Z-machine which is closer to Infocom's original design, and isn't always compatible with the modern one. A suggestion, which I think is a good idea, is to change the filename extension. Do you have any better ideas what to change it to?
20:50:21 <metasepia> EFHK 202020Z 24002KT CAVOK 15/13 Q1019 NOSIG
20:50:49 <fizzie> fungot: You're not in Canada.
20:50:49 <fungot> fizzie: just do something like ( defmacro fnord ( arglist &body body) fnord ( pendown ( fnord fnord
20:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> it annoys me that there are like no decent open-world games for linux
20:51:34 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Write some if you like to do so.
20:51:44 <zzo38> Or maybe use some that are written on some VM.
20:52:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Ultima VII with exult?-)
20:54:29 <Fiora> is Don't Starve an open world game?
20:54:33 <Fiora> that's on Linux, I think
20:55:04 <zzo38> What kind of open world game do you want?
20:55:05 <Fiora> oh, X3 is on Linux too, huh
20:55:10 <Fiora> okay that defintely has to count
20:55:20 <boily> Fiora: what do you know that your bot ain't in Canada? everything points to it being somewhat near here.
20:55:46 <fizzie> Fiora: Don't Starve is in [Category:Open world video games] in Wikipedia, so I guess it must be.
20:56:03 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (i guess my main problem here is i want to play tes, and nobody makes tes except bethesda)
20:56:25 <Fiora> I don't think it was grindy at all?
20:57:05 <Fiora> I mean like there's a lot of other things to maybe dislike about it if they're not your thing, but like. not grindy, I guess?
20:57:06 <zzo38> What kind of things did you want in open world game though, specifically?
20:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> well essentially it sounds like elite, and elite and tes aren't quite the same genre imo
20:58:49 <Fiora> well, yeah, I mean, they're really different? but they're both open world ^^;
21:04:32 <fizzie> I've been thinking of buying that Skyrim thing when the discount gets to >= 50%. (Maybe next Steam Christmas sale.)
21:07:47 -!- Emilie has joined.
21:08:09 <Roujo> Well, to be honest...
21:08:19 <Roujo> #esoteric: This is Emilie
21:08:47 <Emilie> Nice to meet you all! (^_^)
21:09:03 <Roujo> Aaaaand you guessed it: Bus time
21:09:26 <Koen_> brace yourself, a `welcome is coming
21:09:36 <HackEgo> Emilie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:11:55 <Koen_> boily: you're the one who asked me the question, right?
21:12:12 <Koen_> because I just read the jsvine survey and your question is in it
21:12:13 -!- Roujo|Android has joined.
21:12:18 <Koen_> I found that particularly suspicious
21:15:08 <Koen_> yes I do remember boily asking Fiora her body weight
21:17:53 <Fiora> I'm not involved in boily's weird plan
21:18:02 <Fiora> except I guess in that I'm one of the dozens of people he asked?
21:19:14 <Koen_> except the crazy umlauts maybe
21:19:40 <Koen_> so why is the question in jsvine's survey?
21:19:54 <Fiora> stalking? I don't know
21:21:15 -!- Roujo|Android has quit (Quit: Bye).
21:21:36 -!- Roujo_ has joined.
21:23:05 <boily> every time I have a meeting and/or a drawing session on a whiteboard, people start spewing conspiracies and interesting stuff.
21:23:37 <Roujo_> You should get into more meetings, then
21:23:50 <Roujo_> More fun for the rest of us
21:23:56 <boily> summary: I don't have any sisters, not even Emilies, I indeed am the one who asks the The Question, Fiora is part of the plan, the umlauts are not crazy, and when does the II come out?
21:24:18 <Koen_> that's not a summary that's more questions
21:24:25 <boily> Roujo_: pfshaw. humbug. nonsense. and you are evil for having brought forth my brother in this Chann̈el.
21:24:32 <boily> Koen_: the Infamous Interview.
21:24:43 <boily> Koen_: well, I got distracted halfway.
21:24:56 <Koen_> you can't put a tréma on a consonant :(
21:25:21 <Roujo_> boily: He had to sëe the wonder of esolanğ
21:25:25 <boily> Fiora: I already have your Relevant Information, so there's no need to Question you again.
21:25:36 <Fiora> this sounds weirder every time you mention it ;_;
21:25:54 <boily> it's not weird, it's even in alphabetical order and nicely formatted!
21:26:15 <Roujo_> Neat and weird aren't mutually exclusive
21:27:09 <boily> for the next 5 minutes: http://pastebin.ca/2434934
21:27:34 <boily> Fiora: you see, nothing weird going on!
21:27:42 <boily> (except FreeFull. he is weird.)
21:27:52 <Koen_> some are in lbs and some in kg
21:28:10 <boily> some are in megaluns. that's not even wrong.
21:28:40 <Fiora> that's um. a strange list
21:29:02 <Koen_> everyone's got your relevant information now Fiora
21:29:27 * boily gives a penguin plushie to Fiora
21:29:59 <HackEgo> The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
21:31:35 <Koen_> for some reason "tree-dweller" evokes some kind of mole digging inside a tree
21:31:39 <Roujo_> %echo @tell boily Where's *my* relevant info? =/
21:31:39 <Emilie> @tell boily Where's *my* relevant info? =/
21:32:03 <Koen_> Emilie's a computer program?
21:32:05 <fizzie> boily: I had an occasion to step on a weightometer the other day, and even though I've forgotten what the exact result was, you could revise my number to 75 in the same units and it'd be closer by some amount.
21:32:46 <Koen_> I had an occasion too but I carefully avoided it from happening
21:32:51 <Roujo_> Koen_: Yeah, she's my bot. That I tend to anthropomorphize
21:33:06 <Koen_> as in Turing-testify?
21:33:35 <boily> `echo "That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of." > wisdom/"Roujo's relevant info"
21:33:37 <HackEgo> "That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of." > wisdom/"Roujo's relevant info"
21:33:41 <Roujo_> I just talk about her as if she was an actual person
21:33:43 <boily> `run echo "That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of." > wisdom/"Roujo's relevant info"
21:34:01 <Roujo_> In hope that she'll take the hint and be one eventually
21:34:03 <boily> ~duck weightometer
21:34:35 <fizzie> `? Roujo's relevant info
21:34:36 <HackEgo> Roujo's relevant info? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:34:44 <fizzie> boily: Lowercasing of search terms strikes again ^
21:34:46 <Roujo_> Yeah, %help is next on the todo list
21:34:53 <boily> fizzie: noooooooooo!
21:35:14 <boily> `? roujo's relevant info
21:35:15 <HackEgo> roujo's relevant info? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:35:40 * boily thwarps HackEgo with a flamboyant hamburger and a side of fries.
21:36:08 <HackEgo> 546) <Phantom_Hoover> It's like Pygmalion and Galatea but more weeaboo. <Phantom_Hoover> Also lesbian.
21:36:24 <metasepia> The Perry Bible Fellowship is a newspaper comic strip and webcomic by Nicholas Gurewitch.
21:37:24 <metasepia> diaeresis definition: a mark placed over a vowel to indicate that the vowel is pronounced in a separate syllable (as in '''nave''' or '''Bront''') compare umlaut.
21:40:11 <boily> FreeFull: I'd say around 1.5 sigmas over the global average.
21:40:25 <Koen_> you don't necessarily need a tréma to get a diaeresis
21:40:54 <boily> well. you know. sometimes, there are terms that are dramaticker, but untruthinessial.
21:41:07 <FreeFull> Why doesn't metasepia do UTF-8?
21:43:15 <Roujo_> Because tréma is best éma
21:43:27 <FreeFull> boily: But that diaeresis definition wasn't UTF-8
21:44:00 <Emilie> Roujo_: Results of 5d6+7: 19
21:44:01 <Emilie> Roujo_: Rolls: 4, 3, 1, 2, 2
21:44:34 * Emilie slaps boily around with a large trout.
21:44:37 <zzo38> UTF-8 is a character encoding for numbers up to 36-bits, and which is compatible with principle of extended ASCII. The character set normally used with UTF-8 is Unicode, which does not use all 36-bits, though.
21:45:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812]).
21:45:06 * trout slaps Emilie around with a boiled boily
21:45:28 <trout> zzo38: I didn't know UTF-8 could be used with non-unicode, though it makes sense
21:45:48 <trout> Phantom_Hoover: we have talked before
21:45:53 <fizzie> zzo38: If you go by the definition of "UTF-8" in the latest RFC or the Unicode 6.0 standard, it does not go up to more than 0x10ffff.
21:46:04 <Roujo_> I am pretty damned confused as well
21:46:31 <zzo38> fizzie: UTF-8 does; Unicode does not go higher than 0x10FFFF though (since "UTF-8" normally means it is encoding Unicode, it won't go higher than 0x10FFFF either).
21:46:44 <trout> Phantom_Hoover: for a few years
21:47:03 <trout> I idle a lot here but don't have a chance to contribute much :(
21:47:03 <fizzie> zzo38: No, UTF-8 does not, according to the current standard definitions of it.
21:48:19 <zzo38> fizzie: Well, by those definition it is that by "UTF-8" they mean "UTF-8/Unicode", which is the normal meaning anyways; I am talking about "UTF-8" in general (which doesn't really have a better name)
21:49:25 <pikhq> So, the UTF-8 integer coding scheme, not the character encoding. :)
21:49:39 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I suppose so.
21:49:41 <fizzie> Possibly a name should be invented, then.
21:50:10 <boily> trout: if you want to contribute, just go with the flow.
21:50:11 <pikhq> It's a fairly decent integer code scheme.
21:50:22 <trout> boily: its more about amount of time
21:51:11 <boily> Roujo_: with buffering!
21:51:50 <Roujo_> boily: Mucho buffering
21:52:48 -!- nucular has joined.
21:53:27 <olsner> kmc: hey, I wrote some Rust code today ... but I don't think I quite understand how pointers work
21:53:40 <HackEgo> nucular: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:56:55 -!- augur has joined.
21:57:48 <kmc> olsner: oh, cool! what does your rust code do?
21:57:58 <kmc> and what would you like to know about pointers?
21:59:40 <olsner> it "simulates" a piece of the virtual memory system (like, the data structures that describe mappings and stuff) of my kernel
22:07:17 <olsner> I'm not quite sure what I'd like to know about pointers, I just generally seem to be getting the wrong kind, amount or combination of pointedness and mutability a lot
22:07:40 <FireFly> Hey, are you guys aware of a Brainfuck implementation in Postscript? I can't seem to find any via google
22:08:16 <kmc> one thing to keep in mind is that ~-boxes inherit mutability from their owner
22:08:43 <kmc> basically there are "ownership trees" where the root is either a local variable or an @ / @mut box
22:08:57 <kmc> and so there is let, let mut, @, @mut, but no such thing as ~ vs ~mut
22:10:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
22:11:30 <doesthiswork> what happens when we modify peano's axioms so that instead of each natural number having one successor, it has two?
22:12:30 <Bike> which are also natural numbers?
22:13:56 <Bike> so you mean we have 0 \isin N, S(x) \isin N iff x \isin N, T(x) \isin N \iff x \isin N, S(x) != T(x), S(x) = S(y) iff x = y, T(x) = T(y) iff x = y?
22:13:56 <doesthiswork> well I can't use the same name for them as normal natural numbers because it will get confusing
22:14:31 <fizzie> FireFly: https://bitbucket.org/MrDubya/bfps
22:16:57 <fizzie> FireFly: There's another one that I can't seem to be able to extract a link to, which is really weird.
22:17:20 -!- nucular has quit (Quit: *.net *.[DATA EXPUNGED]).
22:17:31 <elliott> doesthiswork: how do you define addition?
22:17:31 <kmc> well each 'number' in the new system is like a binary number made of S and T
22:17:36 <elliott> you could interpret T as predecessor, I think.
22:17:47 <elliott> since those axioms don't contradict S(T(x)) = T(S(x)) = x, I think?
22:18:17 <Bike> well, i said S(anything) isn't T(anything) but if you lost that you could recover integers.
22:18:18 <fizzie> FireFly: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130820-bf.ps -- it runs 99bob.
22:18:22 <doesthiswork> elliott: you concatonate them, so A becomes the starting point of B (it's not commutative)
22:18:38 <elliott> Bike: T(x) isn't S(x) though
22:18:46 <elliott> so it's okay for S(T(x)) = T(S(x))
22:18:47 <fizzie> FireFly: (Both located by the high-tech process of Googling for ["bf.ps" brainfuck].)
22:18:49 <Bike> oh i guess i phrased it badly
22:19:04 <Bike> i meant S(x) != T(y)
22:19:12 <Bike> implicit foralls ftw
22:19:52 <Bike> if you do that you just get pairs without any particular equivalence predicate i guess.
22:20:19 <Bike> then you could define one predicate and get integers, and a different one and get positive rationals, bla bla.
22:20:32 <FireFly> fizzie: Fair. I tried '"postscript" brainfuck' and similar queries, which didn't work as well
22:20:43 <Bike> well, no. i guess S . T and T . S aren't the same right
22:20:54 <Bike> so... more like what kmc said.
22:21:18 <Bike> yeah imma call that good.
22:21:21 <elliott> if you make S and T totally disjoint then you're just asking about data Peayes = Z | S Peayes | T Peayes
22:21:31 * elliott expert at reduction to solved problems
22:21:32 <Bike> yeah that's what i meant
22:21:36 <Bike> which is binary
22:21:46 <Bike> gotta give me a minute to go through the thinking!!!
22:21:46 <elliott> describing types as axioms is weird.
22:22:01 <Bike> describing axioms as types is weird. describing pies as cakes is weird
22:22:16 <boily> elliott: could you reduce tonight's bike route? I have to go to a new place.
22:24:22 <elliott> data Peamaybe : Type where { Z : Peamaybe; S : Peamaybe -> Peamaybe; T : Peamaybe -> Peamaybe; S_T : forall x, S (T x) = x; T_S : forall x, T (S x) = x } -- hooray for HITs?
22:25:00 <boily> Bike: I'm going to 951 Rachel Est from 7275 St-Urbain. I prefer cycling ways, but would like to avoid potholes as my back hurts. the moon is full, and you can't leave the wolf with the cabbage, as the relative humidity is still quite high.
22:25:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:25:02 <Bike> high intense types
22:25:16 <Bike> boily: have you run this through coq
22:25:48 <boily> no, I need my brain free of type systems as I'm working on projects that require Python.
22:30:29 -!- Roujo_ has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:31:09 <doesthiswork> so I"m defining addition as A + 0 = A, A + S(B) = S( A + B), A + T(B) = T( A + B)
22:31:13 -!- mnoqy has joined.
22:32:40 <Bike> then S(A) + T(B) = S(A + T(B)) = S(T(A + B))and = T(B + S(A)) = T(S(A + B))
22:32:58 <Bike> sucks to be you!!
22:34:56 <Bike> well, assuming addition is commutative.
22:35:10 <boily> does T stand for tuccession?
22:35:14 <Bike> which is a nice thing for addition to be, imo
22:35:22 <Bike> elliott already did that joke man
22:36:02 <Bike> oh i thought you meant S and T didn't commute
22:36:04 <Gracenotes> well, I'm not one to hold grudges. *slinkers away*
22:36:06 <Bike> Gracenotes: "Peamaybe"
22:36:28 <elliott> 23:21:21 <elliott> if you make S and T totally disjoint then you're just asking about data Peayes = Z | S Peayes | T Peayes
22:36:29 <Gracenotes> yeah, I lept off of that. Hm, you did do peayes?
22:36:29 <Koen_> doesthiswork: are you sure that's enough for a definition?
22:36:57 <Gracenotes> Alas. I did have the succ joke, at least.
22:37:08 <HackEgo> 831) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 1043) <ais523> elliott: it's not so much that I've failed, just that I have not yet succeeded
22:37:27 -!- `0x00 has joined.
22:37:41 * `0x00 licks ion up and down the middlepart.
22:37:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
22:37:54 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*null@unaffiliated/0x00/x-2550036.
22:37:54 -!- elliott has kicked `0x00 ban evasion and creepiness, go away.
22:38:06 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b $a:`0x00.
22:38:07 <Bike> i think that went well
22:38:17 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b `0x00*!*@*.
22:38:19 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
22:38:51 <elliott> pretty sad if they got a cloak literally just to do that
22:39:14 <boily> lesson of the day: don't be a slimy retard.
22:39:36 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs#L72-L130 lolwut
22:39:40 <Bike> don't use "retard" as an insult plz
22:39:50 <Bike> even for people that are slimy
22:39:56 <kmc> I agree with Bike
22:40:56 <Bike> oh, shit, i didn't recognize where it was from :(
22:41:23 <Gracenotes> I dunno, it might also be a stretch to say that it's fair use.
22:41:30 <Gracenotes> for the not-yet-expired longer passages.
22:41:32 <Bike> call of cthulu is pd by now isn't it
22:41:44 <Bike> or... are some of those from other sources. i didn't check.
22:41:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:42:14 <Bike> finally, a workable criterion for the public domain
22:42:33 <elliott> oerjan joins right after I ban a ban-evader...... suspicious......
22:42:40 <Gracenotes> it's also includes an 8-word phrase from an English translation of a Japanese video game.
22:42:48 <Bike> fuck it, anyway, lovecraft pretty much ignored copyright anyway
22:43:18 * oerjan cackles conspiratorially
22:43:22 <Koen_> doesthiswork: and are you sure you couldn't get rid of the third condition?
22:43:24 <Bike> "This work is in the public domain in the United States because it was legally published within the United States (or the United Nations Headquarters in New York subject to Section 7 of the United States Headquarters Agreement) before 1964, and copyright was not renewed." ah, there we go
22:43:27 <Koen_> as in are you sure it isn't redundant
22:43:30 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 24m 22s ago: according to wiki's chart of diaphonemes to regional dialects, /poːlət/.
22:43:56 <Bike> imo we should have kept copyright renewal :\\
22:44:05 <Koen_> the second condition should be enough to reduce A+B to S(S(S(S(S(...A+0))))))
22:44:19 <doesthiswork> Koen_: there is one clause for T() and one for S()
22:44:42 <Koen_> I was assuming S(T(x)) = T(S(x)) = x
22:44:50 <Gracenotes> (don't worry, it is endearing terminology)
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22:44:59 <Koen_> (for all x except maybe 0)
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22:45:27 <HackEgo> beloved: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:45:33 -!- beloved has changed nick to nan[0].
22:45:46 <boily> can I unrelcome somebody?
22:45:51 <doesthiswork> Koen_: If you assume that, it collapses into boringness
22:45:53 <elliott> same username and realname
22:46:31 <Koen_> also, are you sure you got A+B=B+A ?
22:46:43 <doesthiswork> when you concatenate paths through a tree they don't commute
22:47:04 <Koen_> I haven't the slightest idea what you mean
22:47:32 <oerjan> boily: h+-oily as she is _properly_ pronounced (see logs hth)
22:47:38 <elliott> nan[0]: do you have a good argument for not being `0x00 ban evading again?
22:47:51 <mnoqy> good argument, imo
22:48:04 <elliott> nan[0]: preferably one better than "huh?" :/
22:48:05 <doesthiswork> T() is the left child S() is the right child, so it makes a binary tree
22:48:11 <boily> oerjan: indeed. it's good when I'm well pronounced.
22:48:23 <Koen_> couldn't you name them L and R then
22:48:26 * nan[0] licks ion down the neck. down the back.
22:48:31 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
22:48:34 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*null@*.violates.us.
22:48:34 -!- elliott has kicked nan[0] yep.
22:48:49 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b nan[0]*!*@*.
22:48:53 <boily> elliott: hey, at least let us some time to grab popcorn :p
22:48:54 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
22:48:57 <Koen_> so what's a number again?
22:49:10 <Bike> "so what's a number again?": the maths experience
22:49:41 <boily> Koen_: you have to become one with nothing to understand natural reality.
22:50:00 <doesthiswork> Koen_: don't ask me I didn't do it -- principa discordia
22:50:06 <Koen_> can you please start making sentences I can read boily
22:51:38 <Koen_> doesthiswork: I read a few lines up S(T(x)) = x
22:51:52 <boily> doesthiswork: you outconfused me there.
22:52:01 <Koen_> how is that consistent with left son and right son?
22:53:23 <doesthiswork> Koen_ that would make modular arithmetic, who wrote it?
22:53:46 <doesthiswork> boily: who's on first; the pitcher is named tomorrow
22:54:02 <Koen_> elliott: data Peamaybe : Type where { Z : Peamaybe; S : Peamaybe -> Peamaybe; T : Peamaybe -> Peamaybe; S_T : forall x, S (T x) = x; T_S : forall x, T (S x) = x } -- hooray for HITs?
22:54:32 <elliott> there's about ten different things with S and T people are talking about at this point
22:54:44 <boily> doesthiswork: I suspected a&c, but I missed the pitcher's part.
22:55:54 <Bike> i'm a fucking visionary elliott
22:56:38 <doesthiswork> Koen_: I was messing around to see if I could get anything interesting. The answer is probably not
22:57:15 <Koen_> no this thing about binary trees sounds fun
22:58:15 <tswett> "Number" doesn't have a mathematical definition.
22:58:36 <doesthiswork> I thought peano numbers WHERE one such definition
22:58:45 <Koen_> how is A*T(B) equal to A*B + A
22:58:46 <tswett> But things are generally considered numbers when they are similar in some way to the natural numbers or something.
22:59:06 <tswett> doesthiswork: they're a definition of "natural number", but I don't think "number" is usually considered a synonym of "natural number".
22:59:27 <Koen_> I think a number is like "the member of the corps we're both talking about"
22:59:35 <Koen_> give me 5 sec to translate corps to english
23:00:06 <doesthiswork> Koen_: I was seeing what happens I don't like calling that operation multiplication
23:00:11 <metasepia> corps definition: an organized subdivision of the military establishment.
23:00:20 <Koen_> wikipedia gives me "division ring"
23:00:31 <Koen_> okay maybe not what I meant
23:00:44 <Koen_> I should take a math class someday
23:01:05 <Bike> math is for nerds imo
23:01:16 <boily> math is for engineers imbo.
23:01:26 <doesthiswork> I don't like the definition I gave because it multiplies the structure of one number by the magnitude of another.
23:01:42 <oerjan> Koen_: the natural numbers are not a division ring (or field, which is what i thought corps/german Körper) meant
23:01:56 <Bike> in my boilypinion?
23:02:02 <Koen_> doesthiswork: that's the multiplication by a scalar
23:02:25 <Koen_> doesthiswork: now you need cross product or something
23:02:26 <oerjan> admittedly you can embed them in one. heck even the ordinals embed into the surreals.
23:02:40 <doesthiswork> yes, and you see how B is just being used as a scalar
23:02:47 <boily> Bike: it was “in my better opinion”, but I like the pretentiousness of a boilypinion :D
23:03:11 <Koen_> oerjan: honestly besides groups and vector spaces I can't tell which are which any longer
23:03:22 <Koen_> between rings fields ideals algebras etc
23:04:03 <boily> oerjan: this looks like an implement to shoot laser rays at obnoxious people.
23:04:06 <oerjan> no, it means "move the ) to the right spot"
23:04:12 <Koen_> and I probably won't for a long time because this fucking school doesn't have ANYTHING AT ALL else than computers
23:04:23 <Bike> what kinda sadass school is that
23:04:51 <Koen_> no languages, no maths, no physics, no nothing
23:06:44 <Koen_> doesthiswork: what about replacing every leaf of B with copies of A
23:07:04 <oerjan> Koen_: not even monoids? i hear they're easy
23:07:14 <Koen_> I've never known what a monoid was
23:07:43 <Koen_> except that one time when I was tired of not knowing and I looked up the definition on wikipedia and that was just one more definition and without further study it was just a boring definition so I forgot it
23:07:46 <Bike> just a thing with "addition" that's associative, basically. and addition has an identity. and probably another thing i'm forgetting.
23:08:17 <Koen_> well that's one thing too much
23:08:18 <Bike> yeah basically
23:08:25 <Bike> i don't even know why i remember it
23:08:26 <Koen_> they're just sets with operations
23:08:28 <oerjan> Koen_: monoids are the thing which concatenated words / lists are the free object of hth
23:08:28 <Bike> possibly shachaf??
23:08:34 <Koen_> why don't we call them sets with operations
23:08:45 <Bike> because they're old.
23:09:17 <boily> “lists are the free objects of hth.” that is most disturbing.
23:09:23 <Bike> same reason you call 4 "four" but all 819198 gets is "eight hundred thousand nineteen, one hundred ninety eight". you just use the former more.
23:09:40 <Bike> er i fucked that up
23:10:07 <Koen_> thousand nineteen that's an awful lot of nineteens
23:10:22 <Bike> eight hundred nineteen thousand, JERK
23:10:53 <oerjan> Koen_: because "sets with operations" is a vague thing of which monoids are a _very_ specific example hth
23:10:54 <boily> Bike is sharing his happy mood with all of us. thanks Bike.
23:11:27 <Koen_> oerjan: sets with _very_ specific operations twnh
23:12:03 <boily> time to go grab edible matter. my stomach is attempting to morph itself into a singularity.
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23:13:32 <Koen_> oerjan: Historically, division rings were sometimes referred to as fields, while fields were called commutative fields.
23:14:49 <oerjan> yes. i may even vaguely recall that french ended up keeping the opposite convention of english?
23:16:20 <oerjan> also i've decided to ban french in the channel, all obscure terms must be acronyms so they're easy to comprehend hth
23:17:45 <oerjan> as i've recently discovered, the worst thing about french is that it's so similar to english that when you try to google the definition of a french word it's hard to phrase in such a way that you don't get just french hits with no english explanation.
23:19:29 <oerjan> i mean, _normally_ all i do when i want to get a comprehensible definition of something is to add "definition" to the search terms. but does that work for french? noooo...
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23:29:32 <Bike> maybe you should try speaking a language not made up by normans.
23:32:19 * oerjan slips off Bike's chain
23:33:10 <oerjan> shachaf: don't worry, it's just the bike equivalent of tying together his shoelaces hth
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23:33:56 <shachaf> 16:08 <Bike> possibly shachaf??
23:34:10 <shachaf> i guess he's just talking about monoids
23:34:28 <shachaf> Bike: monoids aren't cool btw
23:35:02 <shachaf> (comonoid is a real thing btw but it's boring in Set)
23:35:50 <oerjan> what about in Set^{op}
23:36:40 <shachaf> what about in #esoteric^{op}
23:37:22 <kmc> shachaf: how is your second day as a noogler
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23:42:48 <doesthiswork> perhaps we can automate all these "co-" jokes since they are based on a trivial lexical feature
23:43:20 <kmc> what about the cock jokes
23:43:30 <kmc> are you trying to put me out of a job here
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23:47:22 <doesthiswork> but someone even published a paper about a program to automatically make "that's what she said" jokes, so why should we make co jokes manually when we can make them much more efficiently by computer
23:48:05 <oerjan> mputer? i hardly know her!
23:48:47 <scoofy> i'd be interested in an actual humor generating algorithm
23:49:02 <scoofy> computers are notoriously bad at humor
23:49:09 <oerjan> humor? i *hit by falling anvil*
23:49:50 <scoofy> but it involves some kind of intelligence
23:50:17 <doesthiswork> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_humor
23:51:49 <scoofy> seems like a rather young field
23:52:42 <scoofy> would be interesting to see it in formal mathematical models
23:53:47 <HackEgo> scoofy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:59:43 <scoofy> elliott, yes, i could say
00:03:56 <shachaf> kmc: lots of things going on
00:06:04 <copumpkin> omg shachaf turned into One Of Them
00:06:12 <kmc> omg a wild copumpkin appeared
00:06:23 <kmc> it's super effective
00:06:38 <oerjan> no it's not i still see it
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00:11:05 <zzo38> List of some DD spells/psionics I made up on this paper includes: Invisibility to Humans, Kjugobe's Fast Growth, Kjugobe's Timer, Kjugobe's Notification, Kjugobe's Super Mind Blast, Kjugobe's Rewind, (some spells are named after their inventor, and so are many of these ones)
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00:13:51 <zzo38> Do you have another idea too?
00:24:19 <oerjan> Kjugobe's Hovering Bubble
00:25:45 <oerjan> well it allows you to float in the air, i think it will combine nicely with Invisibility to Humans.
00:26:12 <oerjan> not recommended in strong winds.
00:27:03 <oerjan> carry capacity may depend on success roll.
00:27:35 <zzo38> O, so that's how it would work.
00:28:12 <zzo38> Where in the air will you float and what is the affect of others on it?
00:28:45 <scoofy> elliott: been lurking around for a while
00:29:00 <HackEgo> scoofy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:29:06 <oerjan> well you can guide it in all directions to some extent, but as mentioned it's sensitive to wind.
00:29:24 <oerjan> i suppose archers might affect it *POOF*
00:31:08 <oerjan> and other sharp weapons, but they have to reach the bubble
00:32:01 <zzo38> What if someone inside, attacks outward or touches things outward?
00:32:32 <oerjan> hm i guess sharp weapons can also break it from inside.
00:33:09 <oerjan> it might be slightly elastic. like a thick balloon.
00:33:23 <zzo38> O, so that's how you cancel it.
00:36:09 <zzo38> But what if whoever inside try to touch objects on the outside?
00:39:00 <oerjan> it behaves like a solid elastic surface which tries to keep its initial shape and size. it is somewhat elastic, but you cannot pass through it without breaking it.
00:40:12 <oerjan> although spells can be cast through it.
00:40:34 <Jafet> You mean like http://gallery.burrowowl.net/images/0b/0bfdee42fb4c8a63c76fc1a5545de201
00:41:18 <oerjan> i am imagining it to be spherical by default.
00:41:56 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i never said the acronyms should be french, sheesh
00:43:32 <oerjan> basically it should look like a large soap bubble but be less fragile. i think maybe soap might be a material component of the spell.
00:44:13 <Jafet> hth is not an acronym, hth
00:44:25 <Jafet> Well, maybe it is in french.
00:44:46 <oerjan> in french it is inaudible as all the letters are silent hth
00:46:15 <zzo38> You say spells can cast through it. I suppose certainly magical abilities such as mind blast, telepathy, illusions, mage hand, etc can work through it, but what about such physical effect of magical spells, such as magic missile, fire balls, force cage, etc?
00:49:06 <oerjan> hm i guess physically destructive spells shouldn't.
00:50:36 <zzo38> I suppose physically destructive spells would break it and then still work, maybe. Is that what you were thinking of?
00:51:43 <oerjan> it's not meant to be good for combat, more like for escape or transportation.
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00:58:09 <Sgeo> I need to learn to trust mouse wheels again
00:58:24 <Sgeo> After my months of betrayal by them
01:00:21 <HackEgo> 104) <oerjan> alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles \ 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets \ 381) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Pl
01:00:37 <HackEgo> 78) <Warrigal> I seem to think of coaxial cables as being omnipotent somehow. \ 381) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different \ 599) <Ngevd> Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge \ 1084) <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both
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01:11:22 * oerjan suddenly realizes how much weirder 104 looks without context
01:12:37 <oerjan> (it was about the Dyson Airblade drier)
01:12:51 <elliott> pretty sure that's why it was added
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01:14:01 <oerjan> i was previously assuming it was weird enough even with context
01:14:49 <oerjan> `run quote toilet | tail -c 400
01:14:50 <HackEgo> r back? yeah... it adds up \ 725) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler") \ 986) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head o
01:15:11 <oerjan> `run quote toilet | tail -c 350
01:15:12 <HackEgo> n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler") \ 986) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet
01:15:37 <oerjan> i see we have a lot of toilet quotes
01:28:42 <Sgeo> shachaf: speculation: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15861177&postcount=25
01:29:58 <Sgeo> Not the best speculation, maybe
01:39:07 <oerjan> Sgeo: good luck finding any remains after the explosion
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01:51:30 <Sgeo> oerjan: I was thinking more in terms of they'd probably not like Lawful Evil either. Hating Paladins doesn't mean being ok with Evil
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01:55:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: no, but we are talking about people descending from a usually evil race of dragons here.
01:57:31 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that the Scribble was * Good or * Neutral
01:57:44 <Sgeo> Same with defending the gate
01:58:22 <Sgeo> Although I guess that doesn't exclude being ok with being revived by Lawful Evil, and I guess even Evil characters might defend the Gate or work to protect reality
01:58:25 <Sgeo> Order of the Scribble
01:58:37 <Sgeo> Soon, Girard, et. al
01:58:56 <Sgeo> Oh, that might be a fan nickname
01:59:04 <oerjan> oh sure, i am assuming girard is chaotic good, but he's still descended from a dragon
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02:26:43 <kmc> oerjan: ah yeah I have the same problem with the airblade
02:27:41 <kmc> here's a taboo thought: washing your hands after using the facilities is not beneficial in every circumstance
02:28:20 <kmc> i still do it because a) conditioning b) people will look at you like you just kicked a puppy
02:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i love how the airblade makes it basically impossible to avoid contact with the fan nozzle
02:30:34 <oerjan> how is it not beneficial and do i really want to know.
02:31:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's what my quote is _about_ hth
02:32:47 <oerjan> i don't remember seeing it
02:34:57 <oerjan> kmc: in any case where it's not beneficial you need to call authorities to get the place closed down immediately hth
02:36:15 <oerjan> in case of authorities not willing/able to do so, you need to take over the government.
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03:16:32 <Sgeo> I'm in a nonexistent building that I think is older than elliott (I forget exactly how old elliott is)
03:17:16 <Sgeo> This building was made November 1995
03:17:26 <elliott> I am also in a building older than I am.
03:17:51 <oerjan> i am in a building younger than i am hth
03:18:31 <Sgeo> Apparently Active Worlds had some promotional thing with Jumanji
03:19:12 <zzo38> Now I realized a unusual feature I put in the Z-machine assembler, which is the DW_SKIP command. I don't konw of other assembler having such feature.
03:21:18 <zzo38> Do you know if there is some?
03:21:54 <zzo38> (The DW_SKIP command takes a count and then the data; however, the count is how many numbers of the data will be skipped and not written to the output.)
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03:22:56 <Sgeo> Pretty sure this "Historical Society" is older than the thing it was studying was when the historical society was created
03:23:27 <Sgeo> AW was 1995(?), maybe 1997 went public, the historical society was 2000
03:30:04 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> it's not weird, it's even in alphabetical order and nicely formatted!
03:30:07 <HackEgo> 1092) <boily> it's not weird, it's even in alphabetical order and nicely formatted!
03:33:31 <zzo38> What is the "pronounce" name for the comma command in Forth?
03:35:15 <doesthiswork> zzo38: do you have a link to your z-machine stuff?
03:36:19 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, I do have. You can find it in my user page of IF Wiki, and you can look in http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/
03:38:44 <Sgeo> I have reached a location of Bill Clinton jokes
03:44:18 <pikhq> Bill Clinton jokes are immortal, much like Bill Clinton.
03:45:55 <Sgeo> doesthiswork: they were popular in 1998 or so, and that's when those signs at the location I was at were built
03:48:48 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Does this work? [O, it is same name]
03:50:10 <zzo38> I am writing the document for Frolg 1.3 and will released soon.
03:50:33 <zzo38> (Frolg is the Z-machine assembler. Aimfiz and Fweep are interpreters.)
03:51:43 <zzo38> Do you know some things about Z-machine?
03:52:19 <doesthiswork> nothing more than is on wikipedia, they seem quite esoteric
03:55:22 <tswett> So, a while back I posted a list of "incorrect jokes".
03:55:40 <tswett> Example: "What's the best thing about living in Switzerland? Well, the flag is pretty nice."
03:56:17 <tswett> I've forgotten the original version of one of the jokes.
03:56:21 <tswett> The modified version is: "You know, I think I might become a mirror inspector."
03:58:18 <doesthiswork> is that the entire modified joke or just the punchline?
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03:59:15 <oerjan> <doesthiswork> so I"m defining addition as A + 0 = A, A + S(B) = S( A + B), A + T(B) = T( A + B) <-- i think that's basically concatenation if you think of the type as list of S's and T's
03:59:39 <oerjan> which i guess makes it associative, at least :)
04:00:46 <tswett> doesthiswork: that's the entire modified joke.
04:01:04 <tswett> Like, what could the original have been? Something involving the phrase "looking into mirrors"?
04:02:02 <doesthiswork> "after some reflection I think I might become a mirror inspector."
04:03:47 <doesthiswork> oerjan: I defined it so it would be concatenation
04:05:32 <doesthiswork> because it would be annoy if it did something different like A + S(B) = S( B + A)
04:06:57 <oerjan> these new ops are growing our ban list something fearfully
04:07:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I think it probably is.
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04:23:57 <tswett> Pretty sure that isn't the original.
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05:56:18 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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11:56:23 <HackEgo> samantus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:56:42 <Koen_> is it me or does "relcome" sounds japanese?
12:00:20 <AnotherTest> hm, so much new esolangs lately: doublefuck, jumpfuck, bitfuck, reduced instruction set brainfuck, braincurses, braincursion, paintfuck++
12:00:54 <Roujo> paintfuck++ looks interesting
12:01:01 <Roujo> Well, its name does
12:01:07 <Koen_> yeah it has two fancy + symbols in it
12:01:15 <Roujo> "Votre recherche de paintfuck++ ne correspond à aucun document."
12:01:26 <Roujo> It's the "paint" part that intrigues me
12:01:36 <AnotherTest> "This language is by User:Poolala, and is an extension of the Paintfuck language. Each cell is represented as an RGB code, and the colors wrap. (FF to 00, 00 to FF) The cell array is the same as Paintfuck's."
12:01:54 <AnotherTest> it's just painfuck with an extra instruction or something
12:01:56 <Koen_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Paintfuck%2B
12:03:45 <AnotherTest> so basically it replaces the flip cell command with increment/decrement cell
12:04:16 <Koen_> so it's like paintfuck IN COLOUR
12:05:49 <fizzie> Each cell also seems to have a "current color" selector for the R/G/B component.
12:06:20 <AnotherTest> bitfuck is equivalend to smallfuck with input, except for the fact that it's syntax is ambiguous
12:10:07 <AnotherTest> surely, there must be another 2D brainfuck variant
12:10:13 <Jafet> If you make a derivative using lisp syntax, you get s-fuck
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12:11:13 <AnotherTest> well now that we have come to the doublefuck point, it is clearly time to make n-dimensional brainfuck to ensure nobody makes a 3D variant
12:11:33 <AnotherTest> although I fear that might not stop anyone
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12:14:36 <fizzie> Do you count a two-tape brainfuck as "2D"?
12:14:59 <oerjan> AnotherTest: Dimensifuck hth
12:15:40 <fizzie> oerjan: That's not a N-tape variant, though. (Which would be kind of the logical extension from DoubleFuck.)
12:16:04 <AnotherTest> it has 2 dimensions but they're not fully accessible
12:16:49 <oerjan> i'm not sure if there's an arbitrary-dimension variant which affects both code and tape
12:17:15 <AnotherTest> samantus: Does such a brainfuck variant exist?
12:17:25 <AnotherTest> samantus: You're stupid, do you know that?
12:17:25 <samantus> AnotherTest: Do you call it where you need to be a good one
12:18:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Clearly you must define a brainfuck variant where the code lives in an N-dimensional space, and there are M separate L-dimensional "tapes".
12:20:11 <AnotherTest> the the code must be written in N dimensions
12:20:51 <AnotherTest> thus, I conclude that we can only trivially represent 3-dimensional code
12:21:09 <Roujo> Why not Yog-Sothoth?
12:21:33 <AnotherTest> an n-dimensional being can represent (n - 1) dimensional brainfuck code I guess
12:22:03 <fizzie> Shameful fact: there's no standard for Funge-98 source files for dimensionalities larger than three.
12:22:14 <AnotherTest> thus, can 4 dimensional brainfuck code exist in our universe? I think it can, if your source code mutates in time
12:22:28 <fizzie> (In TreFunge-98, form feed increments the z coordinate and resets x and y to zero.)
12:22:32 <Roujo> Self-modifying brainfuck
12:22:56 <fizzie> You don't need to mix time in there, there's nothing preventing you from writing brainfuck code with four spatial dimensions.
12:23:31 <scoofy> allocate 4 dimensional matrix for data tape, and you're set
12:23:35 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I don't understand how one would write 4 dimensional code
12:23:47 <AnotherTest> scoofy: I mean the code itself, not the memory
12:24:03 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Just define a file format for it. Possibly also write an editor that can do nice 2D projections.
12:24:46 <scoofy> for the code, you could have 4D code tape... but if you want to really explore that vector space, you'd need more operators for 4d navigation
12:25:22 <scoofy> f. ex. <> ^v in 2D (left-right, up-down), now add 4 more operators for th e other 2 dimensions
12:25:35 <AnotherTest> fizzie: would you say a parallel universe exists in the same dimensions as us, or in a different one?
12:26:02 <scoofy> it has nothing to do with time-space or universe or parallelity
12:26:04 <fizzie> I wouldn't really say anything about parallel universes, and they don't seem terribly relevant to multidimensional brainfucks.
12:26:31 <scoofy> dimension is a mathematical concept, showing the arity of a vector
12:28:14 <AnotherTest> fizzie: It seems interesting to make this brainfuck variant operate in K different universes as well
12:30:34 <scoofy> 4 dimensions is not enough??
12:30:41 <scoofy> why you want other universes? :)
12:30:56 <AnotherTest> scoofy: well the original idea was to have n dimensions
12:31:27 <scoofy> you could have 1024 dimensions if you want
12:31:30 <AnotherTest> and I want multiple universes because in a different universe the operations can be defined otherwisze
12:31:34 <scoofy> would require quite much RAM though
12:31:49 <AnotherTest> so there exists as many universes as there are permutations of the instruction set
12:32:08 <AnotherTest> scoofy: no I don't want a fixed size. Just n
12:32:21 <scoofy> char int data_tape[30000][30000][30000][30000];
12:32:37 <AnotherTest> I suppose you would dynamically allocate storage as needed
12:33:33 <scoofy> actually for this to compile you'd need 17 exabyes or 17,000 petabytes or 17,000,000 terabytes or 17,000,000,000 gigabytes of RAM...
12:33:52 <AnotherTest> that's why you need to dynamically allocate
12:34:33 <scoofy> well that's an interesting problem space, once you start wandering off in 4d
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12:35:11 <scoofy> or create a subset and limit it to, say tape[100][100][100][100]
12:35:26 <scoofy> that needs only 100 MB of RAM
12:35:58 <AnotherTest> or... you allocate as you need and use practically no RAM until someoene wants to
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12:36:11 <scoofy> or write a little toy 4d brainfuck with tape size 64^4, that fits into 64 kbytes
12:36:36 <scoofy> well you need a pretty sophisticated memory manager for that, i guess..
12:36:37 <fizzie> 64^4 certainly doesn't fit in 64k.
12:37:12 <scoofy> good enough for a toy 4d brainfuck :)
12:37:20 <fizzie> Hashmaps are the "standard" implementation strategy for Funge-98 implementations.
12:37:47 <fizzie> Those, of course, don't really care about the dimensionality of the keys.
12:37:48 <AnotherTest> the implementation strategy doesn't seem to be the most important aspect of the problem here
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12:38:14 <fizzie> I don't know if a N-dimensional brainfuck has so many terribly important aspects.
12:38:15 <scoofy> i guess it's important, since you can 'wander off' anywhere in 4d
12:39:12 <AnotherTest> fizzie: true, it needs to be made more complex
12:39:31 -!- Roujo has set topic: The welcomes of doom | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | <AnotherTest> fizzie: true, it needs to be made more complex.
12:39:46 <Roujo> `relcome complexity
12:39:48 <HackEgo> complexity: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:40:10 <AnotherTest> samantus: please say something cool for once
12:40:19 <lambdabot> *** "complexity" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:40:19 <lambdabot> n 1: the quality of being intricate and compounded; "he enjoyed
12:40:19 <lambdabot> the complexity of modern computers" [syn: {complexity},
12:40:19 <lambdabot> {complexness}] [ant: {simpleness}, {simplicity}]
12:40:20 <fizzie> (Nice quotation there.)
12:41:08 <fizzie> There are quite a few people who enjoy the simplicity of non-modern computers; I guess there have to be some folks that do the opposite.
12:41:09 <AnotherTest> I think samantus' "use the words from the input"-strategy isn't that good after all.
12:41:09 <samantus> AnotherTest: That good after all
12:41:27 <scoofy> probably i'd first start off with a 16^4 toy 4d brainfuck to work out the basics, and deal with the dynamic allocaion later
12:42:05 <samantus> AnotherTest: Me something i didnt ask you i told you do i dont see parse error possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched
12:42:52 <AnotherTest> samantus: did you actually learn from your own parse errors. that seems unlikely/impossible
12:42:53 <samantus> AnotherTest: Your own parse errors that seems
12:43:10 <Roujo> I think it's lambdabot's
12:43:24 <samantus> > Roujo is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)
12:43:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Roujo'Not in scope: `is'
12:43:57 <samantus> AnotherTest: That wasnt very nice
12:44:33 <Roujo> ]] whois "AnotherTest";
12:44:33 <samantus> > AnotherTest is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)
12:44:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `AnotherTest'Not in scope: `is'
12:44:48 <Roujo> ]] whois "samantus";
12:44:49 <samantus> > samantus is a VERY annoying person/bot (this does not apply to boily/AnotherTest)
12:44:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `samantus'Not in scope: `is'
12:44:50 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:...
12:46:49 <samantus> > ROUJO IS A VERY ANNOYING PERSON/BOT (THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO BOILY/ANOTHERTEST)
12:46:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `ROUJO'Not in scope: data constructor `IS'
12:49:44 <AnotherTest> Roujo: ok so the language's syntax is kind of like this: call (call or arg)
12:50:28 <Roujo> ]] call (call or arg)
12:50:36 <Roujo> [08:50:29] <samantus> Oops, seems like something went wrong...
12:51:05 <Roujo> Something went wrong again
12:51:25 <AnotherTest> but you have to convert the int result to a printable string
12:51:53 <Roujo> ]] id ( pow 2 22 );
12:51:56 -!- boily has joined.
12:52:04 <Roujo> 'sup, boily, frère de boily?
12:52:12 <boily> good parenthetic morning!
12:52:31 <Roujo> ]] id pow "2" "22"
12:52:31 <samantus> > Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily. Hi boily.
12:52:32 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatche...
12:52:43 <boily> Roujo: I sushied yesterday. how's life for you, friend of boily, brother of boily?
12:52:53 <Roujo> I also sushied. T'was nice.
12:53:10 <Roujo> ]] mul "boilyBoily" 255
12:53:25 <Roujo> ]] mul "boilyBoily" 255;
12:53:25 <samantus> > boilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBo
12:53:25 <samantus> ilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyB
12:53:25 <samantus> oilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboily
12:53:25 <samantus> BoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboil
12:53:25 <samantus> yBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboi
12:53:25 <samantus> lyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilybo
12:53:26 <samantus> ilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoily
12:53:29 <lambdabot> `boilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBoilyboilyBo...
12:53:44 -!- metasepia has joined.
12:53:51 <fizzie> Some sort of line length limit could be worth investigation.
12:53:52 <Roujo> boily: Apparently, you're not in scope
12:54:08 <boily> I can't get mad, I'm not in scope.
12:54:32 <Roujo> ]] mul add "." ";" 5
12:54:37 <Roujo> ]] mul add "." ";" 5;
12:54:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `.'
12:55:11 <Roujo> ]] mul add mul "." 6 ";" 5;
12:55:11 <samantus> > ......;......;......;......;......;
12:55:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `......'
12:55:20 <Roujo> ]] mul add mul "." 6 \";" 5;
12:55:52 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I will lower it. What do you suggest?
12:56:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `hello'Not in scope: `roujo'
12:56:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: parse error on input `='
12:57:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `scope'Not in scope: `roujo'
12:58:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `='
12:58:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `scope'Not in scope: `roujo'
12:58:28 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
12:58:39 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I don't know, but possibly something like one or three IRC messages.
12:58:44 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let roujo = 3'
12:58:54 <Roujo> > let roujo = 3 in roujo = 3
12:58:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input `='
12:58:58 <Roujo> > let roujo = 3 in roujo == 3
12:59:07 <Roujo> > let roujo = 3 in global
12:59:20 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `local' (imported from Control.Mo...
12:59:25 <Roujo> > let roujo = 3 in local
12:59:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.Reader.Class.MonadReader r0 m0)
13:00:05 <AnotherTest> fizzie: what's the maximum lent of a message?
13:00:40 <fizzie> AnotherTest: 512 bytes, but you have to factor in protocol things.
13:00:57 <fizzie> The :nick!user@host prefix, the PRIVMSG, the #esoteric, the :, and the crlf at the end.
13:01:15 <fizzie> On freenode, thanks to cloaks, the first one is pretty hard to predict.
13:01:30 -!- samantus has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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13:02:05 <metasepia> cloak definition: a loose outer garment.
13:02:07 <samantus> > fizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizzief
13:02:07 <samantus> izziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizz
13:02:07 <samantus> iefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizzief
13:02:07 <samantus> izziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizz
13:02:07 <samantus> iefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizzief
13:02:07 <samantus> izziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizz
13:02:07 <samantus> iefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizzie
13:02:10 <lambdabot> `fizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefizziefiz...
13:02:57 <Roujo> ]] mul "| " add "5" "0"
13:03:01 <Roujo> ]] mul "| " add "5" "0";
13:03:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:03:28 * Roujo puts up a few sacks of sand to prepare for the flood
13:03:35 <Roujo> You should stack them about yea high
13:03:51 <AnotherTest> it's having trouble duplicating "fizzie" 50000 times
13:04:13 <Roujo> Surely, freenode has a flood limit?
13:04:15 <fizzie> That's certainly understandable. I shudder to think of a gaggle of 50000 of me.
13:04:33 <AnotherTest> Roujo: yes, I suppose it will get disconnected
13:05:06 <fizzie> Yes, I'm not *that* big to process.
13:05:50 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:06:04 <fizzie> Not in this day and age.
13:06:14 -!- samantus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:06:24 <Roujo> Here lies samantus
13:06:45 <AnotherTest> however it has still not finished so I will kill it
13:08:15 <HackEgo> 439) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
13:08:37 <AnotherTest> I feel obliged to rewrite it in N-dimensional brainfuck now
13:09:03 <AnotherTest> but on the other hand... that doesn't sound very appealin
13:09:16 <Roujo> You know who else isn't appealing?
13:09:17 <boily> doesn't it exists already?
13:09:50 <AnotherTest> scoofy: I don't really enjoy writing brainfuck
13:09:52 <boily> I wonder why nobody ever marketer Simpsons' OJ yet.
13:10:11 <Roujo> Hmmmmm... Can you actually appeal a decision in your favor?
13:10:33 <AnotherTest> scoofy: but if you want to suggest another language, go ahead
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13:11:40 <fizzie> I'd like to see a Glass bot. In fact, I might have started one already, but it got abandoned.
13:12:11 <scoofy> still better to write than programming in writing malbolge
13:12:25 <metasepia> Malbolge is a public domain esoteric programming language invented by Ben Olmstead in 1998, named after the eighth circle of hell in Dante's Inferno, the Malebolge.
13:12:36 * boily is pleasantly surprised
13:13:04 <boily> did Mr. Olmstead ever join this channel?
13:14:40 <metasepia> The brainfuck programming language is an esoteric programming language noted for its extreme minimalism.
13:14:45 <metasepia> Matt Olmstead, an American writer and producer for television shows.
13:14:58 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
13:15:03 <boily> olmsteads are fongible.
13:15:28 <metasepia> Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as sweet crude oil, shares in a company, bonds, precious metals, or currencies.
13:15:48 <boily> ...................Ruuju...........
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13:19:46 <oerjan> i don't clearly remember if olmstead's been here, it must have been long ago. fizzie should know.
13:20:55 <fizzie> I don't clearly remember that happening, but that's not really conclusive proof.
13:22:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: elderlist: not found
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13:51:26 <boily> Tanello. careful of the fizzies, there are rather plenty of them today.
13:55:37 <Taneb> Did you know that elliott has a fruit and veg shop in Wideopen?
13:56:01 <metasepia> Wideopen is a village located in the administrative Borough of North Tyneside, north of Gosforth and six miles from Newcastle upon Tyne city centre.
13:56:45 <boily> everything is somewhat related to hexham...
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13:57:45 <boily> elliott: you're a fruitmonger now?
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14:00:06 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
14:00:30 <boily> I thing the mong mong mong goes in the probably other things.
14:00:52 <metasepia> Lystrosaurus ("shovel lizard") is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which lived around 250 million years ago in what is now Antarctica, India, and South Africa.
14:03:27 <oerjan> `run echo >wisdom/lystrosaur "The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic."
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14:12:13 <boily> I should add W|A infos to ~duck.
14:14:36 <fizzie> If that means making W|A queries, it'd be incredibly illegal, they'd throw you in jail.
14:14:56 <fizzie> Haven't you heard it's a federal crime to go against terms of service these days?
14:15:46 <fizzie> ("The Wolfram|Alpha service may be used only by a human being using a conventional web browser to manually enter queries one at a time.")
14:16:05 <boily> I'm not the one querying, I use ddg as a broker. granted, with the kind of subpœnas you get these days it'll probably get lumped together with everything else, but hey, I like living dangerously.
14:16:24 <fizzie> Note that you're not even allowed to use it if your browser is something less mainstream.
14:16:28 <boily> (and promoting the independance and freedom of marine animals too)
14:17:12 <boily> you're telling me ddg has a special license and/or agreement with W|A for them to display infos in an encart?
14:17:30 <fizzie> "Today, in conjunction with DuckDuckGo, we are happy to share that Wolfram|Alpha and DuckDuckGo have entered a new phase of our relationship as official partners. As a result of this partnership, DuckDuckGo will expand Wolfram|Alpha integration into its search site --"
14:18:33 <fizzie> Though they do have that official API these days too.
14:18:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that works with their regular terms of service.
14:19:12 <fizzie> (It allows for 2000 "non-commercial" W|A queries per month before you have to pay.)
14:19:58 <boily> well, considering W|A has a slimy jelly at its head, I think I'm going to play it safe, even tho I'd really like to have the extra info source clumped into metasepia.
14:20:10 <boily> I mean, instant 漢字 lookup!
14:22:40 <boily> why do everything nowadays need to be embroiled in an Universal Meandering Legal Quagmire of Unhelpfulness?
14:30:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "i'm sure wolfram cares about user privacy and search integrity and all that stuff"
14:30:42 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: careful about what you say here. maybe they're logging the chännel!
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14:36:21 * boily goes on a quest to find an unicode stacked double diæresis.
14:40:41 <boily> not quite what I had in mind, but I think U+20DC does the job: a⃜.
14:41:19 <boily> the Dotpocalypse shall Commence! MWAH AH AH AH AH!
14:45:20 <boily> as previously stated, no, I am still not insane.
14:45:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
14:46:32 <Roujo> boily: That didn't show up correctly to me
14:47:14 <boily> Roujo: what do you use as an IRC client? do you have plenty of not-quite-useless-unicode-fonts installed? are your chakras balanced?
14:47:24 <boily> doesthiswork: people die in oots?
14:47:31 * oerjan swats doesthiswork for spoiling -----###
14:47:51 <Roujo> I use KVIrc, I just use Courrier New, and I think so, yeah
14:48:09 <oerjan> boily: um, rather frequently...
14:49:56 <boily> Roujo: interesting client, you should enhance your fonts, and just to be sure maybe a consultation with an ayurvedic expert may be helpful.
14:50:12 <oerjan> doesthiswork: oh i've read it, i'm swatting you on principle, and ten hours is far too little, some people catch up in batches.
14:50:49 <boily> oerjan: did you experience catharsis with that swat?
14:50:50 <doesthiswork> I read a recent study that found that spoilers increased people's enjoyment of a work
14:51:13 <boily> doesthiswork: don't give me the details of that study! I want to read it without knowing its punchlines.
14:51:14 <Roujo> boily: I like it, which one do you suggest, that's alright, I can do it myself if need be
14:51:50 <oerjan> i read a recent study (this is a lie) that people who use science to contradict other people's feelings have low life expectancy.
14:52:02 <boily> Roujo: I'm a weechat fanatic as are some of my coworkers, think of the unicode children!, you studied the ayurveda?
14:54:30 <boily> they're developing a web-based client to weechat that uses websockets. the project is still pretty much pre-alpha, but there is youtube integration!
14:54:33 <Roujo> boily: I like KVIrc's nick color feature, does weechat have that; is that the font's name; nah, but I do have a formation in Reiki so close enough?
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14:55:36 <boily> Roujo: colourisation is wholly customisable, no font name yet but “unicode children” sounds good, I think reiki is good.
14:56:05 <oerjan> also i have a firm prejudice that all psychological studies have glaringly obvious holes that make them not apply to my situation hth (and i haven't read any of them either)
14:56:35 <oerjan> this also applies to nutrition studies.
14:56:38 <Roujo> boily: Yes, but it it deterministic; I tried to install Droid Mono, but it didn't work for some reason; you know about Reiki?
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14:57:09 <boily> I have friends who are studying / studied psychology. their average opinion is: stuff happens when stuff happens, and correlating stuff together is a very naïve way of doing things.
14:58:03 <oerjan> boily: thanks, that is precisely the kind of anecdotical evidence i'm collecting to bolster my prejudice tdh
14:58:11 <Roujo> I have a friend who is psychology, but we don't talk to him anymore
14:58:34 <boily> Roujo: it stays the same across sessions as it is based on a deterministic algorithm of nicks' hashes, I'm on good ol' Terminus but my system complements it with what it can find, only slightly but I'm more knowledgeable with reflexology.
14:58:57 <boily> oerjan: glad to have elicited an honourable tdh from you twh.
14:59:35 <boily> btw, what's a tdh?
14:59:49 <Roujo> boily: That's nice, I'll have to try that; That's nice, I'll have to try that; That's nice, I'll have to try that.
15:00:38 <boily> ah, at last a fanin! juggling three subjects at the same time without arrow notation is exhausting.
15:01:33 <oerjan> i sense a bug in the vowel recognition there
15:01:45 <boily> `learn tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
15:02:02 <Roujo> `learn `? is `? is `?
15:02:20 <boily> didn't we have an entry with further details for `??
15:03:09 <Roujo> `learn `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:05:07 <boily> Roujo: there's this place in Chinatown which has nice massages for somewhat reasonable prices.
15:07:07 <boily> you can expect to pay ~10$ more per session this year compared to last, but it remains affordable and enjoyable.
15:07:26 <boily> oerjan: hands on discussions :D
15:07:26 <oerjan> maybe myndzi is throttling
15:07:49 * boily unsticks myndzi with a liberal amount of WD-40
15:07:58 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
15:07:58 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
15:07:58 <myndzi> |\ |\ |\ | |\ >\ /< | |\ /< |\
15:08:29 <boily> this brings joy to my heart. thanks fizzie, thanks whoever created myndzi.
15:09:02 <oerjan> i'm wondering why myndzi always chooses that shape for the `? one
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15:09:40 <oerjan> it's a different basic head
15:11:14 <oerjan> @tell myndzi the \m/ \m/ body is misaligned hth
15:11:51 <oerjan> boily: btw myndzi isn't a bot hth
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15:26:53 <boily> myndzi: on which side of the M/M divide are you?
15:27:02 <boily> (Meatbag / Metal divide)
15:27:31 -!- nucular has left ("KTHXBYE").
15:28:25 <boily> oerjan: I still lean towards a ferro-cupric myndzi composition.
15:29:02 <oerjan> i never said he wasn't idling
15:29:58 * boily whips out his pokacular machine, orients it towards myndzi, and powers it on the HI setting
15:31:49 <oerjan> that is not a word although http://www.google.no/search?q=pogacalar&biw=1149&bih=641&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Kt0UUviUMuWJ7AaWiYCoCA&ved=0CC0QsAQ
15:32:50 <boily> foiled by norwegian pastries again.
15:33:02 <oerjan> boily: i think they're turkish, actually
15:33:02 * boily throws a fternooner at oerjan
15:33:03 <Phantom__Hoover> by which i mean a human who also has a bot attached to his nick
15:33:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: please remove your excess underscore
15:33:35 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:33:44 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: stop applying logical razors. hth.
15:34:41 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poga%C4%8Da
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15:35:23 <boily> I suddenly feel hungrier...
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16:03:12 <myndzi> well i am somewhat of a metalhead :V
16:03:30 <myndzi> i'm super sad my pretty clean code for that stick figure dude got trashed, it's just depressing to hack it into shape :(
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16:06:32 <Roujo> ............ \m/ \m/
16:06:44 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
16:07:04 <Roujo> Off-by-one, but eh
16:07:17 <myndzi> it hasn't been right since i went to mirc 7
16:07:27 <myndzi> unicode differences and such
16:07:45 <myndzi> i mean, i fixed a lot of it but i wrote that shit years ago and it's ugly as hell
16:07:56 <myndzi> i rewrote it all nice and my hard drive crashed D:
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16:11:15 <myndzi> i have a script for it :)
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16:11:22 <myndzi> was just seeing that it responded
16:11:58 <myndzi> apparently the dcc server part is broke too, god dammit
16:12:06 <myndzi> i should just roll back to mirc 6 and be done with it :P
16:12:15 <myndzi> i don't even do this shit anymore
16:14:38 <myndzi> it's got too much text to play over irc
16:14:46 <myndzi> it's also multiplayer :D
16:14:51 <Roujo> Does it work atm? =D
16:15:20 <myndzi> you can also telnet or dccserver chat it, though i think the ports probably don't forward atm
16:15:40 <myndzi> and i should rehost the maps
16:15:51 <myndzi> i've found it to be a lot of fun
16:17:34 <myndzi> why the hell doesn't one of the simplest clauses in the regex match :|
16:18:55 <myndzi> i put a . at the end of it
16:19:03 <myndzi> so it needed a character on the right side (shouldn't)
16:19:09 <myndzi> symmetry, my mortal enemy!
16:19:22 <myndzi> well, it triggered anyway
16:19:42 <myndzi> there's two regexes :P
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16:23:15 <myndzi> . \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
16:23:15 <myndzi> `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´
16:23:17 <myndzi> (_|¯´\ /`\ /`¯|_) /`\ (_|¯`¯|_) /'\ (_|¯´\ /'\ /'¯|_)
16:23:17 <myndzi> |_) (_| |_) (_| (_| |_) (_| |_) |_) (_| |_) (_|
16:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> justify it by the nick-message separator, not by the start of the nick
16:23:56 <myndzi> how should i know what your nick-message separator is?
16:24:10 <myndzi> and how can i output text that conforms to everybody's different display settings?
16:24:20 <myndzi> answer that and i'll think about it :)
16:24:59 <myndzi> \o/ ¯\(°_o)/¯ c.c \o\ \m/ \m/ /o/
16:25:12 <myndzi> thought it'd be something like that, let's see
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16:26:05 <oerjan> fizzie: um why has fungot reverted to an ancient version of ^celebrate :(
16:26:06 -!- scoofy has joined.
16:26:06 <fungot> oerjan: and the lines wrap" attribute there. you know. then they learned about functional languages.) yes. we discussed that. can you just change it to
16:26:35 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:26:57 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't know :(
16:27:05 <Bike> an ancient pagan celebration
16:27:41 <oerjan> `pastelogs def celebrate
16:28:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25501
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16:28:35 <myndzi> it lines up for me in my test channel
16:28:45 <myndzi> maybe nick length discrepancy is factoring in somehow
16:29:07 <oerjan> ^def celebrate ul (\o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/)S
16:29:14 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
16:29:15 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c ¦ `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
16:29:15 <myndzi> /< c.c /'\ /< | | |\ c.c ´¸¨ | /^\|/| c.c /<
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16:29:35 <myndzi> some of those chars fuck up the monospacing :(
16:30:31 <oerjan> myndzi: that looks fine in irssi. well except for that weird guy just right of the middle.
16:31:09 <myndzi> some windows font is getting subbed in for the cane shape and something
16:31:37 <myndzi> huh, that should be in this font
16:31:41 <Roujo> ^def def ul (hai)S
16:31:53 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
16:32:37 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
16:32:41 <myndzi> ah there it is, just looks short and stunted
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16:33:31 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
16:33:50 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
16:33:55 <Roujo> That's a... nice CTCP request?
16:33:58 <myndzi> apparently hackego is sending a unicode ? of some kind o_O
16:34:10 <fizzie> Roujo: Very oerjany CTCP request.
16:35:05 <fizzie> I don't know if I want to save that "a".
16:35:50 <fungot> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
16:36:05 <fizzie> oerjan: The built-in ^def only fires if there's a space after the command (it checks for "^def "), so plain "^def" hits the def'd def.
16:36:16 <fizzie> AnotherTest: For obvious reasons they get filtered.
16:36:40 <oerjan> myndzi: oh hm HackEgo prepends a zero-width space for botloop prevention
16:36:51 -!- Emilie has quit (Quit: Later!).
16:37:57 <fungot> AnotherTest: when you try to use that
16:37:59 <elliott> what is with all the bot spam the past few days?
16:38:00 <myndzi> oerjan: makes sense, script doesn't understand zero width spaces though
16:38:06 <fizzie> AnotherTest: [...] at the start of a program will never run.
16:38:19 <myndzi> it assumes a unicode character is 1 block wide in monospace font
16:38:27 <myndzi> i should be able to filter it out
16:38:29 <fungot> AnotherTest: http://xs128.xs.to/ xs128/ 08266/ picture5214.png the circularity is definitely there restricted to what i like so much fun
16:38:30 <oerjan> elliott: myndzi is fixing his script
16:38:52 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
16:38:57 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Having a . in front of the [] will not make it run either. A ".[+-]." is equivalent to "..".
16:39:10 <scoofy> which is your favorite esolang?
16:39:13 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Just brainfuck and Underload.
16:39:15 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:39:36 <elliott> oerjan: well ok. but I meant before that too.
16:39:51 -!- asie has joined.
16:39:53 <myndzi> i'm spamming mostly to myself but i don't know quite how to reproduce the above output
16:39:59 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It shows a command.
16:40:00 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a
16:40:01 <myndzi> it doesn't appear to be a zero width space
16:40:10 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
16:40:19 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/hm
16:40:34 -!- Emilie has joined.
16:40:39 <myndzi> feff is zero-width non-breaking
16:40:49 <Roujo> ^def something as something
16:40:49 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
16:41:00 <AnotherTest> ^rainbow This is actually nice. It reminds me of `relcome, which is not so nice after all.
16:41:00 <fungot> This is actually nice. It reminds me of `relcome, w ...
16:41:24 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
16:41:30 <Roujo> ^relcome ~echo ^rainbow
16:41:34 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
16:41:41 <fizzie> It doesn't take any input.
16:41:55 <fungot> eliott elliot eliott eliott elliot elliott eliot elliot eliott elliot elliot eliott eliott elliot eliott eliot elliot elliott eliott elliot eliott eliott elliot elliot eliott eliot elliott eliott elliot eliott eliott elliot elliott eliot elliot eliott eliott elliot elliot eliott elliot elliott eliot elliot elliott eliott e ...too much output!
16:42:06 <Roujo> `relcome ~echo rainbow
16:42:08 <HackEgo> ~echo: rainbow: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:42:09 <myndzi> perchance can someone verify this supposed zero width space? mirc debug output is showing â? which isn't right
16:42:18 <Roujo> Awww, the : messes it up =P
16:42:52 <myndzi> how can it display ascii bytes AND unicode :|
16:43:06 <fungot> `relcome Test... `relcome Test...
16:43:09 <HackEgo> Test...: `relcome: Test...: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:43:43 <fizzie> myndzi: My logs say the raw bytes are e2 80 8b which is the correct UTF-8 of U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE, as far as I can tell.
16:43:59 <myndzi> yeah, improper assumption on my part
16:44:30 <myndzi> or some sort of mangling because it looks like i'm getting 3882
16:45:12 <myndzi> multiple levels of mangling even, can't trust clipboard or debug output either :(
16:46:00 <myndzi> btw, i imagine any client that supports ZWS also supports chr(15)
16:46:03 <elliott> that's just not how the IRC protocol works
16:46:10 <myndzi> which is an easier bot-loop protector imo
16:46:28 <ion> (Btw, the IRC protocol works in a sucky way.)
16:46:31 <myndzi> the irc server never sends a message
16:46:36 <myndzi> that comes "from" the bot
16:46:57 <myndzi> ignore implies it was sent and nothing was done about it
16:47:01 <ion> “which is an easier bot-loop protector imo” How about just following the RFC hth
16:47:12 <fizzie> ion: The RFC is last millennium hth
16:47:13 <myndzi> ion: send all bot responses to the channel as notices? :P
16:47:16 <Roujo> `echo %echo ~echo ^echo Hai
16:47:24 <AnotherTest> oh right, fungot doesn't respond to hackego
16:47:24 <fungot> AnotherTest: also what about newlib? aren't non-lambda rhs just normal " arguments" to be different.
16:47:28 <Roujo> That fucking character
16:47:37 <Roujo> Nobody responds to HackEgo
16:47:47 <Roujo> It follows that HackEgo must be a jerk
16:47:49 <zzo38> You should just follow the RFC
16:48:00 <Roujo> AnotherTest: Challenge accepted
16:48:03 <AnotherTest> also it should change names often so fizzie can't ignore it
16:48:07 <zzo38> And furthermore make your bot strip invisible characters when accepting commands
16:48:07 <Roujo> zzo38: What does the RFC say?
16:48:40 <Roujo> Okay, I'll work on it
16:48:53 <Roujo> I'm sure Emily can strip if I try hard enough
16:48:53 <myndzi> i have so many crazy scripts
16:48:55 <myndzi> 58 72 97 99 107 69 103 111 33 100 108 111 112 101 110 64 108 105 98 100 108 46 115 111 32 80 82 73 86 77 83 71 32 35 101 115 111 116 101 114 105 99 32 58 226 128 139 63 32 194 175 92 40 194 176 95 111 41 47 194 175 13 10
16:48:59 <myndzi> i think that's the line
16:49:42 <fizzie> 226 128 139 is indeed e2 80 8b.
16:50:00 <myndzi> this reminded me of another script i never loaded though
16:50:00 <boily> back from lunch! my absence spontaneified myndzi!
16:50:07 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to FungotAnnoy.
16:50:16 -!- FungotAnnoy has changed nick to AnotherTest.
16:50:25 <AnotherTest> Ok I was hopping for some really bad programming
16:50:28 <myndzi> i don't even remember what it's called
16:50:30 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:50:41 <Roujo> zzo38: What part of the RFC should I be following again?
16:50:46 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Even if it did look at the nick, it's case-sensitive about its name.
16:50:57 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to fungot_annoy.
16:51:04 <fizzie> (It doesn't look at the nick.)
16:51:05 -!- fungot_annoy has changed nick to AnotherTest.
16:51:13 <fizzie> (It was just a hypothetical.)
16:51:25 <ion> roujo: The RFC specifies PRIVMSG as the human message command and NOTICE as the bot message command. Bots are only allowed to trigger stuff from human messages and send stuff as bot messages. Therefore, no bot loops ever. As an additional bonus you can easily skip over the low-priority bot messages in a discussion when your IRC client e.g. colors them differently. Unfortunately, certain IRC clients default
16:51:27 <ion> to making a huge show about NOTICEs even though they are the low-priority messages, and not enough users bother to report it as a bug or even to change their configuration, but they do bother to make a huge noise about it on IRC whenever bots do the right thing. So we have ended up in a situation where many bots just use PRIVMSG and have nasty hacks that may or may not work to prevent bot loops.
16:51:28 <myndzi> Roujo: i presume he's referring to automated responses should be notices and requests that trigger them should be privmsg
16:52:00 <zzo38> ion: And I suggest actually following the RFC instead
16:52:09 <zzo38> If your client is broken then you need to get a different client
16:52:10 <Roujo> ion: myndzi: zzo38: Nice, nice. Thanks.
16:52:58 <fizzie> ion: ("many bots" is perhaps a bit of an understatement, it's probably really "most".)
16:53:33 <boily> btw, why was I unashamedly CTCPed?
16:53:54 <Roujo> It's fungot's fault
16:53:55 <fungot> Roujo: i don't know if it's believable to have hayfever in march.
16:53:55 <elliott> if the excessive botspam starts showing up in NOTICE colour I will be sorely tempted to /part.
16:53:58 <myndzi> sorta like people complaining about highlights but even less egregious
16:54:06 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
16:54:24 <myndzi> I ENABLED THIS FEATURE OF MY CLIENT/SCRIPT AND IT'S DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO, STOP USING IT
16:54:31 -!- Bike has joined.
16:55:33 <Roujo> myndzi: Wait what?
16:56:00 <ion> In terminals with ANSI colors, a good color for notices is the “bright black” a.k.a. dark gray.
16:56:23 <ion> At least if you have a dark background color.
16:56:31 <myndzi> Roujo: it is common in some groups of people on irc to complain about "over-using highlights"
16:56:42 <myndzi> which is a client feature that alerts the user when some matching text (usually their name) is sent
16:56:57 <Roujo> I was wondering what you were referring to, that's all ^^
16:57:04 <myndzi> STOP HIGHLIGHTING ME GUYS
16:57:08 <zzo38> If they don't want that they should change the configure of your client (or change your name, if that is the problem)
16:57:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:57:14 <Roujo> myndzi: But it's fuuuuuun
16:57:18 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
16:57:24 <Bike> very lol, imo.
16:57:31 <myndzi> i wonder what's in this one
16:57:49 <myndzi> in #scripting on dalnet one time
16:58:02 <Bike> dalnet??? worst network
16:58:03 <myndzi> i wrote this script that kicked anybody who didn't follow the instructions given in the topic
16:58:11 <myndzi> and if they repeated it banned them
16:58:20 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
16:58:24 <myndzi> else kick $chan $nick Hey, maybe you can catch the topic on your way back in!
16:58:29 <zzo38> I don't see any names.
16:58:52 <Bike> zzo38: there are more lines.
16:58:53 <oerjan> zzo38: they've been shuffled out by all the weird unicode
16:58:54 <ion> myndzi: heh
16:58:59 <Bike> `run /bin/ls wisdom | tail
16:59:00 <HackEgo> welcome.bork \ welcome.es \ wercome \ west midlands \ wiki \ wisdom \ wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute." \ you \ zomgmodules \ zzo38
16:59:08 <Bike> look, it's you!
16:59:21 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it doesn't matter
16:59:42 <Bike> `? wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
16:59:43 <HackEgo> wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:00:02 <zzo38> `run /bin/ls wisdom | shuf
17:00:03 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant \ 🐐 \ bc \ cyberiad \ firefly \ context \ egobot \ northumberland \ thyme \ megalun \ phantom___hoover \ partial order \ d \ sgeo \ object \ maths \ ☃ \ résumé \ isomorphism \ devious \ hello \ inverness \ gazspacho \ itidus21 \ eurovision \ mojibake \ lettuce \ internationale \ everyone \ elliott \ bird \ nah \ cak
17:01:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
17:01:14 <boily> croissant! c'est juste des croissants! ÇA SE MISSPELLE PAS, UN CROISSANT! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH!
17:01:39 <oerjan> `? misspellings of croissant
17:01:41 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:01:53 * boily slaps Roujo with a French pastry
17:02:00 * Emilie slaps boily around with a large trout.
17:02:01 <elliott> dear god, can we please leave the bots alone for one hour.
17:02:12 <ion> elliott: It’s #esoteric. What do you think?
17:02:30 <boily> elliott: we will behave. I'm on a meeting for about the next hour, so no abuse from me.
17:02:54 <myndzi> suppose i have to load first
17:03:06 <myndzi> 10:02.41 (myndzi; b10) :HackE
17:03:13 <myndzi> automatic base conversion ftw
17:03:51 <Roujo> 58 72 97 99 107 69
17:04:05 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:04:05 <myndzi> i can make a trigger i suppose :P
17:04:12 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit).
17:04:13 <myndzi> !debase 58 72 97 99 107 69 103 111 33 100 108 111 112 101 110 64 108 105 98 100 108 46 115 111 32 80 82 73 86 77 83 71 32 35 101 115 111 116 101 114 105 99 32 58 226 128 139 63 32 194 175 92 40 194 176 95 111 41 47 194 175 13 10
17:04:14 <myndzi> debase (base 10): :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :â? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:04:32 <myndzi> it'll take any base from 2 to 36
17:07:02 -!- Bike has joined.
17:08:42 <myndzi> i'll deal with the other thing some other time (god knows why shit's misaligned above)
17:19:40 -!- iamfishhead has joined.
17:20:00 <FireFly> Somehow [19:15:48] <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant \
17:20:12 <FireFly> is highlighted as to have nickpinged me..
17:22:13 <oerjan> FireFly: yes, it contains your nick later in the line
17:24:28 <FireFly> I guess I'm not getting the line rendered correctly then. Here's what I see: http://i.imgur.com/WMxSuhJ.png
17:25:24 <oerjan> FireFly: the next item is a unicode character, possibly the infamous goat
17:25:33 <Roujo> <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant \ PROBABLY_A_GOAT \ bc \ cyberiad \ firefly \ context \ egobot \ northumberland \ thyme \ megalun \ phantom___hoover \ partial order \ d \ sgeo \ object \ maths \ ☃ \ résumé \ isomorphism \ devious \ hello \ inverness \ gazspacho \ itidus21 \ eurovision \ mojibake \ lettuce \ internationale \ everyone \ elliott \ bird \ nah \ cak
17:26:38 <Bike> `? misspellings of croissant
17:26:40 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:27:09 <HackEgo> The Cyberiad is not just a book.
17:27:21 <HackEgo> gazspacho is a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
17:30:29 <zzo38> Is there a C library for a MUD and which is cross-platform and FSF/OSI compatible?
17:31:05 <myndzi> i don't think any muds come in library form
17:31:18 <myndzi> but i do know that dead souls is the closest lpc thing to rom
17:31:24 <myndzi> and is under active development last i checked
17:31:35 <myndzi> dunno how cross platform it is but i believe it runs on windows too
17:31:50 <myndzi> http://dead-souls.net/
17:31:55 <myndzi> lol, it calls it a library right there
17:32:17 <myndzi> also LPC is a hell of a lot cooler than anything ROM derivatives can offer
17:32:46 <myndzi> but i think what most people have in mind by 'MUD' is more ROM-style (hack and slash & grinding etc. not social/roleplaying)
17:32:55 <myndzi> which is why i'm glad dead souls exists :)
17:33:01 <zzo38> I mean one that does both really
17:33:15 <zzo38> And I intend to modify to penalize too much grinding
17:33:24 <myndzi> you should definitely check out DS
17:33:42 <zzo38> I mean one that does (hack and slash & grinding etc. *and* social/roleplaying) but that can be modified
17:33:45 <myndzi> the rooms and interactions are programmed in a mud-specific variant of C inside the game itself
17:34:05 <myndzi> the problem with rom is it's really hard to extend in dynamic ways
17:34:09 <zzo38> When searching I found a whole bunch of broken links mostly
17:34:22 <myndzi> it's about as complex as ms-dos batch in terms of scripting mob interactions and the like
17:34:33 <myndzi> lpc gives you a whole array of tools (like variables)
17:34:47 <myndzi> it comes from MOO territory though, which is more .. esoteric?
17:34:58 <myndzi> most moos don't have any sort of setting/combat/leveling system
17:35:06 <myndzi> which is why lots of mud players stick to rom variants
17:35:28 -!- FungotDestroyer has joined.
17:35:55 -!- FungotDestroyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:36:17 <myndzi> also interesting is that dead souls hooks up to a sort of meta-mud chatline, so you can basically chat with the devs from your own mud and whatever as you work on stuff
17:36:45 <myndzi> to be honest i wish i had the time or motivation to play with it more ;(
17:36:50 -!- FungotDestroyer has joined.
17:37:07 <Bike> FungotDestroyer: what
17:37:15 <fungot> Bike: is your name?" " because it sucks.
17:37:24 <Bike> fuck. do the destruction
17:37:45 -!- FungotDestroyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:37:49 <myndzi> (so if you do go that route, leave me a message or something, i'd be interested to check it out)
17:38:14 -!- ^v has joined.
17:38:54 <elliott> dare I ask what it is meant to do?
17:38:56 -!- FungotDestroyer has joined.
17:39:18 -!- FungotDestroyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:39:49 <zzo38> Since some players might not want some things I put it, I can make it options one thing I want to add is a "difficulty menu", so that you can add "balanced experience" (meaning that if you defeat anyone of a lower level than you then you lose experience points instead)
17:40:01 <fizzie> AIUI, it's some sort of a revenge.
17:40:11 -!- FungotDestroyer has joined.
17:40:53 <AnotherTest> I'm actually just trying to reply to hackego, since there doesn't exist a bot yet that replies to it
17:41:04 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure what fungot has done to earn the revenge, but "w/e".
17:41:05 <fungot> fizzie: a mean, despicable, boorish person; used the following words to describe it in english?) instances where the compiler can't make their use more transparent. while you're at such relevant topics.
17:41:10 <Roujo> Give me a second =P
17:43:11 -!- FungotDestroyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:43:30 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
17:43:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: You're on your own.).
17:43:49 <myndzi> i don't know entirely what you have in mind, but considering the source channel it may prove interesting ;)
17:43:56 <myndzi> my biggest complaint with muds has always been how formulaic they are
17:44:01 -!- FungotDestroyer has joined.
17:44:11 <zzo38> Yes I know that too
17:44:13 <myndzi> there was some mud that aol ran/hosted for the longest time
17:44:17 <myndzi> that was actually crazy interesting
17:44:29 <myndzi> i think it's still up, dragon realms or some such? you have to subscribe
17:44:40 <myndzi> there was a somethingawful thread that introduced it that i can't seem to find anymore
17:44:50 <zzo38> I tried various other MUD but none of them are very good
17:44:54 <myndzi> but it described all the interesting ways they added some of that dynamism into it
17:45:01 -!- FungotDestroyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:45:21 <zzo38> But I think a difficulty menu would be good idea
17:45:24 <myndzi> unless you want to write your own codebase, the best you can do is go with one that gives you good tools
17:45:35 <myndzi> so i heartily recommend you avoid rom, rot, etc.
17:45:57 <myndzi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD_trees
17:46:13 <myndzi> aber is kind of an oddball from what i remember
17:46:17 <zzo38> Even if I do write my own codebase, what would help is some library
17:46:25 -!- FungotDestroyer has joined.
17:46:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
17:46:41 <myndzi> do investigate dead souls
17:46:45 <zzo38> The library to automatically handle connections, database, changes at runtime, registration, and those kind of things.
17:46:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
17:46:55 <elliott> you realise it's trivial to make a bot loop if you make a bot specifically to do so.
17:46:57 <myndzi> i think it'll do what you want if you are able to work with its system
17:47:13 <myndzi> and it has the extensibility
17:47:16 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm not *just* trying to make a bot loop
17:47:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
17:47:44 <Bike> this sure looks like just a bot loop
17:47:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
17:47:57 <HackEgo> `echo ^echo `echo `echo ^echo
17:48:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo#: not found
17:48:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: echo#: not found
17:49:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
17:49:12 <Bike> ok seriously the spam is annoying.
17:49:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
17:49:21 -!- FungotDestroyer has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:49:33 <zzo38> What is license of Dead Souls MUD?
17:49:42 <myndzi> i linked the url above, one sec
17:49:47 <fizzie> I like how fungot wasn't involved there at all, despite the name.
17:49:47 <fungot> fizzie: it is to be able to
17:49:51 <myndzi> http://dead-souls.net/
17:50:42 <myndzi> http://lpmuds.net/copyright.mudos
17:51:04 <Emilie> Roujo: Alright, off I go!
17:51:06 -!- Emilie has quit (Quit: Later!).
17:51:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:51:54 <myndzi> http://dead-souls.net/articles/copyright.html
17:51:58 -!- augur has joined.
17:52:12 -!- Emilie has joined.
17:52:31 <Roujo> `echo %echo Take that!
17:52:37 <zzo38> I tried to connect but it seems I cannot disable ANSI codes
17:53:56 -!- yorick has joined.
17:54:05 <Roujo> I thought I was stripping everything I needed to =P
17:54:20 <fungot> AnotherTest: fnord/ tmp/ fnord whee, dependency graphs! http://www.spinnoff.com/ zbb/ fnord/ fnord
17:54:44 <zzo38> Is there one with a FSF/OSI compatible license (or one that has a UNIX version which is this and is completely compatible with the Windows version)?
17:54:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:54:54 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a something
17:55:04 <Roujo> I have no idea what the character is, though
17:55:55 <Roujo> Yeah, I think I'll whitelist instead
17:58:06 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
17:58:11 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
17:58:56 -!- ^v has changed nick to dan200.
17:59:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
17:59:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +m.
17:59:27 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -m.
18:01:31 <zzo38> myndzi: Is there a better one?
18:01:50 <Emilie> Roujo: Alright, off I go!
18:01:53 -!- Emilie has quit (Quit: Later!).
18:02:12 <boily> meetings have interesting side-effects. elliott is now op.
18:02:24 <elliott> if you're going to do more of them, at least make them creative quines instead of just relying on external storage :p
18:03:26 <zzo38> I am not looking for that level of library; I am looking for lower level library which is dealing with connections and so on.
18:04:21 <myndzi> zzo38: i don't know. muds are actually quite complex beasts
18:04:35 <myndzi> to my understanding, most of the available code comes in the form of a code base + patches perhaps
18:04:51 <myndzi> lower level than that, and you lose the mud-specificity
18:04:51 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
18:05:01 <myndzi> so you'd be looking for a 'user management library' or whatever the heck
18:05:02 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:05:58 <zzo38> Well, I am looking for FSF/OSI compliant runtime engine (or at least one where a 100% compatible UNIX version is)
18:06:32 -!- Bike has joined.
18:06:43 <zzo38> It is the runtime engine I am looking for and not the mudlib
18:07:06 <myndzi> well, you could certainly write your own mudlib
18:07:14 <myndzi> that's a lot of code to work with
18:07:30 <myndzi> most of lp muds are written IN lpc
18:07:40 <myndzi> so maybe the driver is closer to what you're looking for
18:08:19 <boily> while I still have some active neurons left in my brain and can form some coherent stuff, and just realized myndzi has been active for the past few hours...
18:08:34 <boily> myndzi: let me ask you the The Question: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
18:08:52 <myndzi> i'm 'around' irc quite a bit, i just don't have an awful lot to contribute to this channel
18:09:08 <boily> I'll put in 'around' and 'unknown'
18:09:39 <myndzi> i should say, i'm actively present on irc most of the day most of the time :P
18:10:09 <myndzi> i originally came here to play around with bf joust, but you guys talk about interesting stuff
18:10:17 <myndzi> i have practically no interest in esoteric programming languages howere ;)
18:10:26 <elliott> boily: "around" and "har".
18:10:52 <myndzi> oh wow, i totally missed the second line
18:11:33 <myndzi> 47.272986,-120.882277 and ~ 190 :P
18:12:30 * boily falls from his chair in pure astonishment
18:12:37 <boily> a complete and useful answer!
18:12:47 <myndzi> i don't much see how it's useful but *shrug*
18:13:00 <boily> I'll have a box of chocolate delivered by ICBM for you.
18:13:14 <myndzi> be sure to send me a tracking number
18:13:28 <boily> elliott: I'm still tempted to put 'har' for the weigh.
18:13:54 <elliott> you didn't get the units of the weigh.
18:14:13 <Bike> gram-centimeters per ampere
18:14:17 <elliott> you... weigh... 190 centimetres
18:14:25 <myndzi> got a problem with that?
18:14:31 <myndzi> i'm also 25 KB/sec tall
18:14:59 <boily> no chocolate for you, you vile ununitter!
18:15:17 <myndzi> i was dying to taste it.
18:15:37 <boily> btw, 47,-120, that sounds an awful lot like seattle, eh?
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18:15:48 <myndzi> haha, that's a new one
18:16:02 <myndzi> never met anyone who recognized gps coords on sight
18:16:11 <Roujo> Some to think of it, scratch that
18:16:18 <boily> `relcome SingingBoyo
18:16:20 <HackEgo> SingingBoyo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:16:23 <Roujo> Making Emily respond to HackEgo is breaking other stuff =P
18:16:56 <Bike> what is your bot even for
18:23:36 <Bike> boily: so is the esoteric centroid presently in tacoma or something
18:23:37 <boily> thank' :: (Divinity a) => (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> a
18:23:56 <boily> Bike: if I k-means it, probably one of them yes.
18:25:23 <boily> active members are split around west coast, east coast, and scandinavia.
18:25:32 <boily> (for all practical purposes, hexham is in Finland.)
18:26:17 <boily> oh, and a few Belgians. again, Paris is in Belgium.
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18:31:48 <fizzie> Welp, what a surprise: printing doesn't work.
18:35:56 <metasepia> kelp definition: any of various large brown seaweeds (order Laminariales).
18:36:40 <boily> `learn welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes.
18:36:55 <HackEgo> welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes.
18:37:07 <kmc> shachaf and I went to the beach and we saw giant bull whip kelp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nereocystis)
18:37:24 <fizzie> I've used the "pxlmono" driver with this before, how come it doesn't work now nyarrrr
18:37:56 <boily> 36 metres for a seaweed???
18:38:09 <kmc> the ones we saw were only 2 or 3 m though
18:39:56 <boily> did you sample them? how do they taste like?
18:40:39 <fizzie> Switched drivers, now it's [stopped "Filter failed"]. Sigh.
18:40:59 <metasepia> Software description: command line progress bar (C).
18:41:27 <boily> same here. where the fungot does that come from.
18:41:27 <fungot> boily: is python a joke? ;p it might make sense
18:42:10 <boily> Roujo: WEEEEEEEEELP!
18:44:02 <boily> Roujo: fungotが怖いんだぞ…
18:44:03 <fungot> boily: so i guess a really savvy glass programmer could make some money, maybe start a home based business of a profiler to spot outright dead code. macro-generated code often has big swaths of it. i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work.
18:44:05 <fizzie> I, uh, I got out... something. It's hard to describe.
18:44:08 <fizzie> It's got pixels in it.
18:44:43 <Bike> lithograph of fizzie's monitor
18:45:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sounds interesting, what is it?
18:46:46 <AnotherTest> "so i guess a really savvy glass programmer could make some money"
18:46:56 <fizzie> I don't have a scanner. I'll see if I can bother to take a picture of it after I actually get this printer working.
18:47:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it pixelated?
18:47:43 <fizzie> I don't really know how it relates to the intended output at all.
18:47:48 <fizzie> But it's certainly something.
18:48:00 <boily> AnotherTest: a prophecy. who shall be the Chosen One to make it true?
18:48:04 <fizzie> I mean, it has darker and lighter regions.
18:48:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that is a start
18:49:14 <fizzie> Huh, the ljet4 driver worked okay.
18:49:28 <fizzie> I guess I'll go with that, though I don't really understand why the previously-working pxlmono would no longer work.
18:49:40 <kmc> command line progress bars are great (I only know of pv, though)
18:49:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is, you get a single pixel obviously (pixel mono)
18:49:55 <fizzie> (It's a Lexmark E232, and speaks some dialect of PCL 5c/5e/6.)
18:50:50 <zzo38> I tried AberMUD too but it won't compile
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18:59:11 <boily> nothing like a portion of coleslaw and a dill pickle on the side when you're having a nice smoked meat sandwich...
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19:15:24 <zzo38> Another feature which would interested to me is that your character name is separate from your account name, so you can write on OOC and nobody will know who you are, for example
19:15:42 <kmc> boily: nice
19:15:57 <kmc> i bought a bunch of http://www.mcclurespickles.com/products/pickles
19:16:03 <zzo38> (OOC = out of character)
19:17:59 <boily> kmc: be sure to use rye bread for your sandwiches, and some «moutarde de meaux».
19:20:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is what came out of Gutenprint: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130821-gutenprint.jpg
19:20:25 -!- asie has joined.
19:21:47 <fizzie> Bike: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130821-tmp.png -- except slightly modified for clearer grayscale printing -- was the source.
19:21:53 <boily> that is beautiful.
19:22:27 <boily> framed and hanged in an art gallery, this could reach probably something like 50~60 CAD.
19:23:05 <fizzie> The text near the top edge is from a previous misprint.
19:23:06 <boily> fizzie: you could make a career out of buggy drivers.
19:23:11 <kmc> it makes me think of a barcode
19:23:34 <boily> I'm sure it symbolizes something philosophical. some kind of struggle of the classes, or something.
19:25:25 <boily> kmc: I tried to scan it with my phone. it doesn't recognize nothing :(
19:26:12 <fizzie> It's an encrypted barcode.
19:27:19 <kmc> hey did you try taking the fourier transform
19:27:25 <kmc> (or inverse fourier transform)
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19:29:02 <kmc> shachaf: thanks for sending me that paper on privacy preserving bloom filters
19:29:15 <kmc> I'm only just now reading it, but it kicked off a chain of reading other interesting crypto papers
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19:35:54 <kmc> yesterday I learned Wolfram Alpha will give you the last few digits of astronomically large numbers like http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=7^%287^%287^7%29%29
19:36:40 <Fiora> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graham%27s+number it doesn't do it for this :<
19:37:08 <kmc> Wikipedia has the last 10 digits though
19:37:36 <boily> meanwhile, W|A won't process “2↑3”. :(
19:38:25 <fizzie> boily: I like the interpretation it gives, though.
19:38:48 <boily> fizzie: almost, but not quite, pas pantoute what I wanted.
19:39:05 <kmc> http://crypto.2013.rump.cr.yp.to/55e2988c4ed3c9f635c9a4c3f52fa0b1.pdf Taiwan has a national LDAP directory? o_O
19:39:31 <boily> fizzie: I also tried “tetration(2, 3)”, “2 tetration 3”, “2 ^^ 3” and “2 *** 3”.
19:40:04 <boily> (I know one up-arrow is only exponentiation, but if it had went through, then 3↑↑↑↑3 :D)
19:40:52 <fizzie> boily: PowerTower[x,y] works for tetration in Mathematica, but apparently not in W|A.
19:40:56 <kmc> i love this "download all the keys and GCD them" thing
19:41:05 <oklofok> wtf @ wolfram alpha's definition of graham's number
19:41:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that letter at the top?
19:42:19 <oklofok> apparently they didn't have time to read the fucking first line of wikipedia's corresponding entry
19:42:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: They're from a previous misprint, I reused the paper.
19:42:36 <Vorpal> oklofok, hi! Long time since I talked to you. How are you?
19:42:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, when it gave you letters instead of an image even?
19:43:26 <boily> fizzie: didn't you have that nifty webpage where you could graph peoples' presence?
19:43:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. It used to do that in the old setup when there was a paper jam, if I tried to continue printing without canceling the job and starting a new one.
19:43:47 <oklofok> Vorpal: nothing new i gues
19:43:49 <fizzie> boily: You mean somewhere in http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ ?
19:43:58 <oklofok> or how long ago did we talk last :P
19:44:04 <boily> fizzie: yep. thanks!
19:44:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, wow. That is one shaky driver
19:44:06 <fizzie> I haven't updated them in a bit, I guess I could do it now.
19:45:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I personally would recommend HP printers, the hplip driver work better under Linux than the official Windows drivers did
19:45:05 <oklofok> this month is my holiday, then i'm gonna try to finish my phd in a year or so
19:45:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, might be worth thinking about if you get a new printer at some point
19:45:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, one of them just said "Filter failed", waited a minute, then printed out a sheet of paper where there was just the line "**** Unable to open the initial device, quitting."
19:45:25 <oklofok> (after that, eternal unemployment i guess)
19:45:42 <oklofok> what have you been up to? can you fly yet?
19:45:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: (One of the drivers, for this printer, I mean.)
19:45:45 <boily> oklofok: can I ask you the The Question?
19:46:06 <Vorpal> oklofok, me? Nah. I only built one wing so far.
19:46:07 <boily> oklofok: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
19:46:10 <Vorpal> The other one isn't ready
19:46:50 <oklofok> my approximate coördinates are N 60 27 E 22 17 i guess
19:46:59 <HackEgo> Thanks, oklofok. Thoklofok.
19:47:58 <oklofok> why? this was in the esoteric survey which i was too ashamed to answer because i like my own languages best.
19:49:03 <boily> oklofok: it's because of me the The Question is there in the survey, but I don't have access to its results atm hth.
19:49:26 <Vorpal> boily, what survey is this?
19:49:26 <boily> therefore, I collect these lemurs independently.
19:49:32 <fizzie> boily: Updated them plots.
19:49:43 <boily> Vorpal: the survey from the Infamous Interview, as linked in the /topic.
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19:50:28 <oklofok> is there a specific reason you're interested in these
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19:50:48 <boily> oklofok: finding this channel's center of mass.
19:50:57 <oklofok> sounds like you want to know where and how much radiation you need to put to kill us all
19:51:00 <fizzie> boily: Is that narrow gap in your presence-bitmap lunchtime or something?
19:51:21 <oklofok> boily: you do realize it's in the middle of the earth right?
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19:51:49 <boily> fizzie: the one at 1900Z? yup.
19:51:56 <kmc> fizzie: nice graphs
19:52:06 <fizzie> Very regular schedule there.
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19:52:31 <boily> oklofok: well, I thought about putting it on the surface, but if you like the magmatic solution I can compute it for you too.
19:52:43 <kmc> averaging points on a sphere is way beyond my capability
19:53:11 <kmc> I guess you can use the von Mises-Fisher distribution or something?
19:53:30 <oklofok> boily: is that a meaningful thing?
19:53:42 <boily> fizzie: I work from 9am until 5:30pm, lunch from 12nn until 1pm, sleep from about 9:30pm until 7am.
19:53:55 <olsner> maybe you could take the point on the surface that's closest to the center of mass
19:53:58 <oklofok> i meant to say what kmc said in his first message
19:54:00 <kmc> fizzie: it would be neat to do some clustering based on activity times, maybe infer timezones and/or who's a grad student
19:54:03 <fizzie> kmc: The maximum-likelihood estimate for the "direction" of the von Mises-Fisher is, IIRC, just the same thing you get if you treat the points as vectors, sum them up, and normalize.
19:54:10 <boily> kmc: yes. or wing it, put it on a projection plane, and do it in plain old 2d coördinates.
19:54:17 <kmc> fizzie: huh, that's convenient
19:54:22 <kmc> also I'm pretty sure we had this conversation before :)
19:54:30 <kmc> that's ok though!
19:54:31 <oklofok> olsner: but that's not very meaningful unless the center of mass is already near the surface?
19:54:33 <kmc> y'all are my external memory
19:55:06 <fizzie> kmc: In the context of "average hue", I think.
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19:55:28 <fizzie> I used the von Mises-Fisher in the gcolor/fcolor thing.
19:55:36 <olsner> oklofok: not sure, but I have a vague idea that it's a good approximation of some sort
19:55:46 <kmc> at one point I was writing some JavaScript to allow a user to choose an arbitrary background color, and then pick a white or black foreground color appropriately
19:55:50 <kmc> that doesn't need average hue though
19:55:54 <kmc> but it did kick off a lot of reading about colorspaces
19:56:00 <oklofok> olsner: if it's near the center, then it'll just be random
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19:56:07 <boily> L*a*b* forevaaaaaaaah!
19:56:41 <kmc> yep I just picked the one with the larger delta-L*
19:57:08 <kmc> I think for just choosing between black and white, that's basically as good as using delta-E*(2000) or such
19:57:12 <boily> (although having your terminal colours all at the same L* is not a good idea when blending fg and bg.)
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19:57:45 <fizzie> (I used the "kappa" concentration parameter of von Mises-Fisher for the "how uniformly coloured this image is" weighting.)
19:57:57 <kmc> what is the gcolor / fcolor thing?
19:58:21 <kmc> boily: but you have to assume that CSS colors are sRGB, which is spec'd, but I don't know how accurate in practice
19:58:22 <fizzie> It resolves the color of anything you can imagine, based on a Google image search or a Flickr search.
19:59:07 <fizzie> You can try it out at http://zem.fi/fcolor (unless that has bitrotted away tue to Flickr API changes), or read about some pre-selected colors at http://zem.fi/gcolor -- the Google results tended to be better.
19:59:50 <fizzie> Though both have the problem that many abstract concepts end up giving some generic grayish-brown.
20:00:00 <olsner> oklofok: i suspect that what I said is just what fizzie said might be the "maximum-likelihood estimate for the "direction" of the von Mises-Fisher"
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20:01:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, on fcolor, what is the thing in the image analysis middle part? Specifically the lower part of the middle bit
20:01:30 <olsner> hmm, http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/termfreq_welcome.html
20:01:45 <fizzie> olsner: It is. And Wikipedia seems to confirm that's the ML answer.
20:01:47 <boily> kmc: I went from Lab with D65 as the white point to sRGB.
20:02:49 <boily> the end effect may not be perfect, but the eyehurt is there.
20:03:05 <Vorpal> boily, Shouldn't you check the output device gamut to see if you can do better?
20:03:11 -!- sacje has joined.
20:03:39 <Vorpal> boily, I have a wide gamut monitor at work for example. Pretty pointless since I work as a developer, but whatever
20:04:05 <Vorpal> Or wait, that was kmc who was doing the chose-color thingy?
20:04:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Um, well. It determines the hue first (the top-middle plot is the von Mises-Fisher pdf), and then the bottom-middle part is the (L,S) plane (with H=the mean hue) and the circles are some isolines of the best Gaussian fit of the (L,S) samples of the image, probably at 1 and 2 standard deviations.
20:04:34 <boily> Vorpal: kmc is doing the useful colour thingy. all I'm having is eyestrain and bad colourschemes.
20:04:51 <boily> Vorpal: cause I can.
20:05:15 <boily> besides, that's not too bad if I don't touch background colours.
20:05:17 <fizzie> olsner: Apparently we've become more welcoming.
20:05:44 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think it counts relcomes if a color-change hits in the middle of the word "welcome", though.
20:06:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, why doesn't gcolor have a web API?
20:06:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Google didn't have a proper image search API when I was making it. (I'm not sure if they do now?)
20:07:06 <boily> hm. according to the fizziegraphs, I am verbose.
20:07:08 <fizzie> I didn't want to encourage ugly scraping.
20:07:37 <fizzie> "Important: The Google Image Search API has been officially deprecated as of May 26, 2011. It will continue to work as per our deprecation policy, but the number of requests you may make per day may be limited. We encourage you to upgrade to the Custom Search API, which now supports image search."
20:07:54 <Vorpal> Well then, just use that?
20:08:07 <fizzie> I guess theoretically speaking I could change the fcolor "GUI" to support both.
20:08:19 <zzo38> My idea of difficulty menu in MUD may be like this: http://sprunge.us/IiME
20:08:25 <fizzie> Possibly there's not enough interest.
20:08:38 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of ideas? What is your opinion of this?
20:08:42 <kmc> fizzie: fcolor / gcolor are really cool!
20:09:25 <fizzie> It's also a pretty crummy that, due to all that same-origin stuff, it has to circulate all the images through a CGI script at zem.fi. (You can load an image from a different origin, but aren't supposed to get at the pixels programmatically.)
20:09:50 <kmc> you should use those timing side channel attacks to do it
20:10:07 <kmc> according to this, the color of the sun is a kind of reddish brown
20:10:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could do the processing server side too?
20:10:20 <kmc> I guess people don't upload that many pictures of the sun itself.
20:10:41 <Vorpal> The local sun is just one of many
20:10:52 <metasepia> The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System.
20:11:13 <Vorpal> I thought it was a newspaper! ;)
20:11:19 <zzo38> Yes, ours is called "the Sun", and then we have "the Solar System", "the Galaxy", "the Universe", ...
20:11:26 <fizzie> boily: Quick, duck, it's the Sun!
20:12:01 <boily> and it's called the moon ♪
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20:13:01 <fizzie> Incidentally, Flickr's search results of "love" (my standard go-to test word, used it to remind myself what the "bottom middle part" was) have a rather large number of insects having sex.
20:13:07 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:13:55 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this difficulty menu?
20:14:08 <boily> fizzie: last time I saw some bottom middling was an obnoxious slimy jelly trying to orally humect ion.
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20:15:01 <Vorpal> So it seems dyndns now requires you to login once a month for free accounts, not just have the client running, anyone know a better service?
20:15:42 <kmc> a miasma of incandescent plasma
20:17:05 <boily> Vorpal: https://freedns.afraid.org/
20:17:18 <fizzie> I've seen people use dy.fi, but I think that's sort of Finnish-only for some reason.
20:17:41 <Vorpal> boily, will take a look
20:17:42 <fizzie> (I don't think they do arbitrary domains either, just "foo.dy.fi" names. Though their domain is nicely short.)
20:18:05 <boily> is it easy to be finnish?
20:18:18 <fizzie> boily: It's okay to be gay, or so I've heard.
20:18:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't need arbitrary, I just need something to ssh to
20:19:10 <boily> why do I have to change my sexual orientation to have another nationality?
20:19:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: In that case there's also no-ip.com, I think they do a couple of names for free. (But it's more of a "commercial" thing than afraid.org.)
20:19:29 <fizzie> boily: No, no, it was just as an apropos.
20:20:10 <Vorpal> afraid.org will probably be good
20:20:15 <Taneb> I'm glad Japan isn't in Europe, or none of us would have a hope in Eurovision at all
20:20:32 <Bike> Taneb: hatsune miku steamrolls the composition
20:20:39 <fizzie> boily: I don't think anyone disputes *that*.
20:20:57 <Taneb> (of course, the UK hasn't had a hope in years)
20:21:15 <boily> Taneb: the UK won the eurovision???
20:21:20 <Vorpal> What afraid.org caps passwords at 16 chars?
20:21:21 <Fiora> a vocaloid concert at eurovision would be wonderful
20:21:41 <Bike> of course weren't vocaloids developed by a spanish university
20:21:43 <Bike> imo get on that spain
20:21:56 <boily> Vorpal: 16 bytes, or could you unicode the fungot out of that?
20:21:57 <fungot> boily: java is too resource consuming for my taste.
20:22:03 <Taneb> boily, the last time was in 1997
20:22:07 <boily> fungot: yes, but that's besides the point.
20:22:07 <fungot> boily: is there a subdirectory src or sisc within that? is 50% a good thing to see all the edges in the cfgs, though.
20:22:16 <Vorpal> boily, not sure, I can't input more than 16 letters.
20:22:39 <elliott> Fiora: I'm not sure you're allowed to have high enough production values at Eurovision for that
20:23:16 <Taneb> I've actually been to a vocaloid concert
20:23:16 <Fiora> http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/067/4/a/hatsune_miku_and_megurine_luka_magnet_live_by_oscarosi-d4s5j0d.gif ooh a nice gif
20:23:32 <Taneb> A very low budget one
20:23:44 <boily> Bike: wasn't there that weird video with a steamroller, nude people with crotch lasers, and that pop tune in the background?
20:24:01 <metasepia> <pre><code>CASS4 (Cas scaffolding protein family member 4)</code></pre> Protein-coding gene on human chromosome 20q13.31, also known as C20orf32, HEF-like protein, HEF1-Efs-p130Cas-like, HEFL, HEPL, chromosome 20 open reading frame 32.
20:25:46 <boily> Bike: found it: http://youtu.be/86wKWjvUD50 [NSFW]
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20:30:34 <fizzie> Oh for.. I'm going to miss that demowall thing again.
20:30:59 <fizzie> For a conflux of reasons, I've never managed to see it once.
20:31:31 <metasepia> Conflux is a Magic: The Gathering expansion set, released on February 6, 2009.
20:31:42 <lambdabot> *** "conflux" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:31:42 <lambdabot> n 1: a flowing together [syn: {confluence}, {conflux},
20:32:24 <fizzie> (They are having it hereabouts tomorrow night.)
20:35:38 <Taneb> Yeah, that Vocaloid concert (officially "UK39 ft. Miku Hatsune")... they were having problems with Windows Media Player
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20:37:40 <Fiora> that doesn't sound like an official concert
20:37:55 <HackEgo> FourFire: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:19 <Bike> Fiora: miku is a miku of the people, not your bourgeoise centralist concerts
20:38:44 <FourFire> That greeting text is truly most painful!
20:38:56 <Bike> hello fourfire. hellourfire
20:39:12 <Fiora> Bike: that's true :P
20:39:14 <Taneb> Fiora, I think it was "Let's experiment on these nerds from this backwards corner of England"
20:39:23 <FourFire> At least it has mostly uniform colours for each word
20:39:23 <Taneb> They had a live backing band
20:39:26 <boily> the Greeting must be Obeyed, and Glimpsed in All its Colourful Glory.
20:41:04 <Fiora> "UK39" sounds like a silly pun on AKB48 for some reason
20:41:59 <fizzie> There's a word-based rainbow welcome too.
20:42:08 <FourFire> the dalnet channel is rather... sparse
20:42:10 <fizzie> `run welcome | rainwords
20:42:13 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:42:16 <fizzie> If you find that more appealing.
20:42:51 <FourFire> well it was nice to see that such a channel as this existed, fare thee well!
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20:43:12 <Taneb> I've still got the ticket stub somewhere
20:43:19 <Bike> oh man are we being spied on
20:43:46 <boily> darn. for once we had a nice visitor, and he left :(
20:43:47 <Bike> if so: note to spies: we are talking about animes not programming. get ur fax strait, nerds.
20:44:24 <boily> the FourFire/Carolyne ratio is way too low for the past quarter. we need a PR campaign.
20:45:18 <boily> Fiora: oh, you missed the colombian girl. it was an... uhm... life experience.
20:45:22 <fizzie> Was that one of elliott's many girlfriends?
20:45:37 <boily> fizzie: probably. elliott is very mysterious, after all.
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20:45:57 <Bike> well that was dumb of me.
20:46:30 <elliott> haha I like FourFire's /part message
20:47:10 <Bike> yes what was that!!
20:47:21 <Bike> i know a guy who uses purple and it does that
20:47:38 <fizzie> Oh, you mean, it wasn't deliberate?
20:47:40 <boily> Bike, stop making less sense than I.
20:47:56 <Bike> fizzie: yeah, it eats /part-s if you have some mods
20:48:08 <Vorpal> wget for https is fucked on my RPi it appears
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20:48:17 <Bike> should i join #lesswrong to see what gives
20:48:22 <fizzie> Bike: I thought it was some kind of a clever.
20:48:25 <Bike> pros: possibly funny; cons: joining #lesswrong
20:48:53 <Bike> i've had problems with wget and https before. imo fuck it
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20:52:12 <Vorpal> Bike, it works fine for the same URL on my desktop
20:52:17 <Vorpal> So that is pretty weird
20:53:09 <boily> Vorpal: old weird version on the RPi?
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20:55:57 <Vorpal> boily, is that old and weird?
20:56:16 <Vorpal> About 5-6 months old by now
20:56:18 <Taneb> Vorpal, what are you wget'ing? I'll see what happens with my RPi
20:56:38 <Taneb> (less than a week old)
20:56:44 <boily> Vorpal: I mean, the wget version, not the RPi itself. hth.
20:57:07 <boily> I have two RPies at my apartment. I should test what happens on them.
20:57:09 <Vorpal> Taneb, a secret update URL for freedns.afraid.org. Nope not going to share it and have it repoint to your IP :P
20:57:29 <Taneb> What happens with other https's?
20:57:34 <kmc> `run echo green yellow red green red blue cyan magenta green red green blue green red red blue magenta blue green blue yellow magenta magenta blue cyan yellow green red green magenta green yellow cyan yellow magenta cyan red blue cyan cyan | rainwords
20:57:36 <HackEgo> green yellow red green red blue cyan magenta green red green blue green red red blue magenta blue green blue yellow magenta magenta blue cyan yellow green red green magenta green yellow cyan yellow magenta cyan red blue cyan cyan
20:57:39 <Vorpal> Taneb, this hangs too: wget -O - https://www.google.com
20:57:58 <kmc> stroop test motherfuckkkkkkkkas
20:58:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, works fine on my desktop
20:58:08 * boily hits kmc over the head with a NYC yellow pages
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20:58:21 <kmc> is it harder if sometimes the word does match?
20:58:46 <Taneb> kmc, aaaaaah I hate those things
20:58:59 <Vorpal> Taneb, I did have problems with dns the other week on the RPi. The local recursive DNS server refused to resolve anything. Then it just randomly started working again after clearing the cache for the fourth time
20:59:08 <Vorpal> Not sure if my RPi has some issues perhaps
20:59:11 <kmc> it's the only method I know for somebody to prove that they *don't* know a particular language
20:59:17 <kmc> (though there are ways to cheat too, like defocusing your eyes)
20:59:22 <elliott> relevant http://neilblr.com/post/44579634689
20:59:24 <Bike> kmc: it's certainly throwing me off
20:59:55 <boily> how much is it to launch a private ICBM with a small nuclear charge?
21:00:23 <kmc> Amazon Elastic ICBM
21:00:32 <kmc> elliott: haha
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21:01:09 <boily> anybody can pool some money? it's for a noble cause.
21:01:27 <Bike> alright i have an argument against merica not using the metric system
21:01:43 <Bike> that argument is: why is this being taught in a college class. holy shit. holy shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
21:01:50 <boily> maybe I could kickstarter it... pledge at least 20$ and get a glow-in-the-dark radioactive replica of kmc's skeleton!
21:02:00 <Vorpal> Bike, it would make it easier for the terrorist to get the measurements right?
21:02:13 <kmc> boily: http://kickstriker.com/kony
21:02:25 <Bike> kickstriker owns
21:02:39 <kmc> Bike: do you read http://www.wrongingrights.com/
21:02:52 <boily> `learn shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
21:02:52 <Vorpal> kmc, as if that would ever amount to anything actually happening
21:02:56 <Bike> no, what is it
21:03:04 <Bike> Vorpal: read the rest, imo
21:03:21 <kmc> oh god there's a post about The Newsroom
21:03:21 <Bike> «Apparently, riding astride is “uncultural.” And, like the much maligned mini-skirt, it threatens road safety by distracting male drivers» the worst argument
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21:04:04 <Vorpal> Bike, okay, doubtful that will work still.
21:04:15 <elliott> Vorpal: you're killing me here
21:04:17 -!- calamari has left.
21:04:31 <metasepia> The Room may refer to: The Room, by Harold Budd The Room The Room, by Zoé The Room, by Tommy Wiseau The Room, from Newgrounds.
21:06:46 <Vorpal> I played a puzzle game named "The Room" recently. Was pretty fun. Think it was part of some humble (android?) bundle.
21:11:50 <boily> Vorpal: if it is, I don't have it in my bought bundles.
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21:12:04 <boily> Vorpal: did you ever play the submachine flash games?
21:14:34 <Vorpal> boily, I don't recall ever hearing about that
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21:26:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, according to fcolor water is brown with a green tint
21:27:11 <Vorpal> And the sea is green with a very slight blue tint
21:27:19 <kmc> I'm glad I didn't put in "cocks" as my first try
21:27:28 <kmc> I didn't realize it shows the individual images
21:27:30 <kmc> and I am at work
21:27:57 <elliott> mozilla has a stict no-cocks policy
21:28:03 <fizzie> It might not show too NSFWy things, it's a Flickr search.
21:28:17 <elliott> lots of pictures of roosters
21:29:51 <fizzie> It could also run kajillion times faster, there's just lots of delays because I didn't want to have too many requests going on.
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21:33:11 <Bike> boily: submachine's fun
21:37:53 <boily> Bike: it is, but I must disappear in a vortex.
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21:42:14 <Bike> «The teacher says that Daniel is fascinated by Maggie’s hair because he’s never seen a blonde person before, and that “blondes are trouble.”» oh my, kmc
21:49:52 <Bike> kmc: this blog is horrifying, help
21:50:16 <Bike> "certain conduct of a sexual nature that was nonconsensual"
21:50:20 <Fiora> oh, that thing you posted above
21:51:00 <Taneb> "implements such as those that are used for the construction of trenches"
21:51:14 <Taneb> I believe it was Tacitus who wrote that
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21:55:03 <Bike> "Kate is a lawyer (Columbia, 2006) and PhD candidate in political science (Columbia, 2204?)" haha
21:58:14 <pikhq> Gregor: So yeah. Finally got some Moxie.
21:58:28 <pikhq> I'll be able to see if it's any good, or if you're just a crazy anosmic man.
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22:01:16 <kmc> what's that?
22:01:35 <pikhq> Moxie is a soda that Gregor is fond of, that's really hard to find outside of Maine.
22:02:17 <pikhq> It's also the origin of the English word "moxie".
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22:21:13 <olsner> kmc: there should be a rust make thingy that compiles required files into crates and links them together automatically
22:22:13 <kmc> there's rustpkg; it's a work in progress
22:22:55 <kmc> I don't know much about it
22:23:04 <kmc> we had a meeting this morning to talk about using it for Servo, but we aren't yet
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22:49:42 <kmc> btw crates are only linked dynamically, at the moment
22:50:05 <kmc> but you need the .so at compile time to get metadata out, and to set the rpath probably
22:50:18 <kmc> metadata reading is atrociously slow right now
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23:43:53 <kmc> cool, I found my first actual "compiler produces bad code, leading to memory corruption" bug
23:45:33 <Sgeo> oerjan: I cheered
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23:46:27 <Bike> "my favorite kind of bug"
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00:07:30 <Sgeo> Do Erlang developers still only push to production off-peak?
00:22:59 <Sgeo> http://whateverorigin.org/
00:23:45 <Bike> why is this something you want?
00:24:19 <Sgeo> I'm just wondering why CORS needs to send preflight for cross-origin complex if cookies won't get sent
00:24:24 <Sgeo> I... think that's what I'm wondering
00:24:33 <Sgeo> If that could be faked with whateverorigin.org and similar services anyway
00:25:12 <Sgeo> Well, whateverorigin is JSONP and thus forces GET and doesn't specify a way to POST, but not too hard to imagine ... some alternatives
00:28:52 <kmc> shachaf: why is East Palo Alto due north of Palo Alto?
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00:43:03 <tswett> Oh look, the NFL pre-season has started.
00:43:07 <tswett> Wonder how I can watch it.
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00:49:39 <shachaf> kmc: "Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; / Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'"
00:53:24 <kmc> pretty much
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01:00:13 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18369820/ computer science
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01:06:04 <nooodl> Bike: i like how it's tagged python, r, matlab
01:06:31 <nooodl> it's like "i'll use ANYTHING just PLEASE help me"
01:07:21 <Bike> well do you know how to do it in matlab? i don't
01:08:37 <Sgeo> shachaf: did you cheer?
01:08:40 <Sgeo> Because I cheered
01:08:54 <tswett> http://pastie.org/8258290
01:09:28 <Bike> i'm a bike, not a guy
01:13:13 <Fiora> 1377102864 seconds? XD
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01:13:38 <Fiora> Bike: well, if you're going to start getting specific... :p
01:13:40 <tswett> I guess I sent that request about 44 years ago.
01:14:02 <Fiora> tswett: maybe it's from 1970 (unix timestamp 0)?
01:14:12 <Fiora> That actually kinda sounds about right.
01:14:31 <tswett> That is definitely right.
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01:17:13 -!- tswett has set topic: tswett needs noderefs | The welcomes of doom | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | <AnotherTest> fizzie: true, it needs to be made more complex.
01:17:54 <tswett> I don't need no stinkin' derefs!
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02:26:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookland data. data is sorrow.
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04:08:43 <Bike> so does anyone here know how to scan books without destroying them.
04:17:55 <fizzie> I think I read something about that the other month.
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04:20:51 <fizzie> Sadly, about all I can recall is that it was a lot more difficulter than just cutting stuff up.
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04:40:45 <coppro> grimbark is apparently a word now
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07:10:29 <Sgeo> shachaf: yes, the events of the latest olist made me happy
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08:26:33 <Koen_> wow, "if" is a function in haskell?
08:27:12 <oerjan> no it's special syntax
08:28:13 <oerjan> you could easily define a corresponding function but there's none in the standard library.
08:28:22 <Koen_> wikipedia says: if' :: Bool -> a -> a -> a
08:28:30 <fizzie> That's "if'", and it's just a suggestamation.
08:28:37 <kmc> lambdabot's @pl uses it
08:28:40 <fizzie> (Or is it a reality already?)
08:28:55 <Koen_> so in haskell you can make a function call without evaluating the arguments?
08:29:18 <oerjan> Koen_: yes. that's why it's called a "lazy" language.
08:29:50 <Koen_> that's quite a lot of laziness
08:31:03 <kmc> you can write True || _ = True; False || x = x and that gives you a short circuiting 'or' operator
08:31:12 <kmc> as an ordinary function with infix syntax
08:31:46 <kmc> in Agda you can define a function named if_then_else_ and call it as if x then y else z
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08:51:19 <oerjan> @tell myndzi Hey those coördinates are not in Olympia!
08:52:58 <oerjan> it's somewhere in the middle of nowhere in washington state. possibly the state's center of mass.
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08:59:42 <oerjan> `pastelogs maybe start a home based
09:00:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22482
09:00:57 <oerjan> darn that only shows up the fungot quote itself
09:00:58 <fungot> oerjan: should be just raw packed pixel stream, i mean
09:01:27 <oerjan> `pastequotes really savvy glass
09:01:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23637
09:01:43 <oerjan> `pastelogs really savvy glass
09:01:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16324
09:02:44 <oerjan> sadly the glass seems to come from "<GregorR> Yeah, I guess a really savvy Glass programmer could make some very non-esoteric things in it :)"
09:03:17 <oerjan> fungot: your version was _so_ much better hth
09:03:18 <fungot> oerjan: but it doesn't work, thats my problem.
09:03:34 <oerjan> hey it _could_ work :(
09:04:38 <fizzie> oerjan: The other half is from #scheme, "2005-04-12 08:50:03 <The_Apprentice> would this be a cool way to make some money, maybe start a home based business".
09:05:22 <fizzie> "This" being Lisp/Scheme.
09:06:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RMYQ a bit of a ramble.
09:06:48 <oerjan> well i think fungot's "i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work." at the end was also part of what made it.
09:06:49 <fungot> oerjan: www.harderweb.de/ jix/ langs/ brainfuck/ util/ fnord, but for a different lang order of
09:07:16 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: so i guess a really savvy glass programmer could make some money, maybe start a home based business of a profiler to spot outright dead code. macro-generated code often has big swaths of it. i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work.
09:07:16 <fungot> oerjan: you don't need to duck.
09:07:19 <HackEgo> 1093) <fungot> boily: so i guess a really savvy glass programmer could make some money, maybe start a home based business of a profiler to spot outright dead code. macro-generated code often has big swaths of it. i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work.
09:07:42 <oerjan> ~duck but what if i want to!
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09:08:03 <oerjan> the cephalopodic one is absent :(
09:08:16 <Taneb> That fungot quote is really profound
09:08:17 <fungot> Taneb: note to self: use ffts for error correction you need quite easily.) then an additional swap is not necessary
09:09:00 <fizzie> It is a font of wisdom.
09:10:04 <fizzie> fungot: Incidentally, have you ever thought of designing a typeface?
09:10:04 <fungot> fizzie: hello? i have never before seen a beverage that keeps for some fnord have some really nice tos optimizations.
09:10:52 <oerjan> i have a hunch fungot didn't understand the question.
09:11:24 <oerjan> fungot: i'd suggest metafont instead, i think it's esoteric too and is what zzo38 uses.
09:11:25 <fungot> oerjan: thought of generalizing that definition right up to " performing flow analysis"? or do you
09:11:51 <oerjan> fungot: no, i didn't think of that.
09:11:52 <fungot> oerjan: s/ release/ version/ vehicular manslaughter!" or " robust" though, because oklotalk is a language, but some of the major ones
09:12:47 <fizzie> fungot: Sometimes you worry me.
09:12:48 <fungot> fizzie: even when the underlying db type wasn't really a string, and returns what receiver returned. srfi 8 is receive. srfi 11 is syntax for method invocation, rpc for java programming.
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10:23:30 <oerjan> <Sgeo> oerjan: I cheered <-- wat
10:30:53 <oerjan> @tell sgeo <Sgeo> oerjan: I cheered <-- wtf context man
10:35:46 <oerjan> <Sgeo> shachaf: yes, the events of the latest olist made me happy <-- oh that. well i guess he had it coming to him.
10:36:46 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> shachaf: yes, the events of the latest olist made me happy <-- oh that. well i guess he had it coming to him.
10:38:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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10:45:44 <Taneb> Well, that's the first time in Brogue I've been killed by a potion of levitation
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11:32:48 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
11:32:55 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
11:33:07 <Roujo> fungot: Should you be or not be?
11:33:08 <fungot> Roujo: scene i. rome. a room in the palace.
11:33:24 <Roujo> 'morning, #esoteric
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11:41:20 <fizzie> fungot: Well, don't just stop there.
11:41:21 <fungot> fizzie: comedy. how now, sirra, doost thou? i once did lend my bodie for thy wealth, it is
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12:09:30 <fungot> Roujo: choose you, sir?
12:09:32 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
12:09:44 <Roujo> I'd like to add that fungot is a botwhore
12:09:45 <fungot> Roujo: mar. an. with all my heart, that there adiacent lie, that have done nothing but prate to me of the dukes? and my chastitie be made the altar, where we host, and make vs wade euen in our kindreds blood: therefore, if thou tak'st leaue, thou wer't better gaul the diuell salsbury. if thou shouldst strive to choose.
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13:29:17 <boily> good TSRA morning.
13:29:20 <metasepia> CYUL 221300Z 26006KT 8SM BKN055TCU OVC240 21/20 A2990 RMK TCU7CI1 SLP123 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:29:31 <boily> and it stopped raining! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
13:30:08 <metasepia> CYUL 221300Z 26006KT 8SM BKN055TCU OVC240 21/20 A2990 RMK TCU7CI1 SLP123 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:31:20 <boily> I started pouring 10 seconds after I started bixiing, then it stopped a few minutes after my ride.
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13:35:45 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that.
13:36:04 <Roujo> Tell me when you stop pouring, mmmkay?
13:36:10 <Roujo> I think it missed Dorval
13:39:19 <boily> I wringed my clothes in the office shower. the pour has somewhat ended, and I have a deserved coffee.
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13:41:48 <boily> oh, environnement canada issued a SPECI:
13:41:50 <metasepia> CYUL 221338Z 21012KT 6SM -SHRA BR OVC070 22/18 A2989 RMK AC8 SLP121 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:43:16 <boily> the forecasts are unsure about if it's going to just TSRA or +TSRA in the next hours. at the very least, with my kurrent karma, lunchtime will be an aquatic experience.
13:43:31 <boily> (“welcome to, marineland! ♪”)
13:49:04 <Roujo> Knowing what TSRA means would probably help
13:50:14 <boily> thunderströmming rain.
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13:54:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:55:00 <HackEgo> fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
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17:40:21 <oerjan> <boily> thunderströmming rain. <-- no matter how bad, it's still better than surströmming rain hth
17:41:29 <oerjan> also, do you canadians have some kind of natural ability to understand those crazy encrypted forecasts.
17:43:23 <boily> we are super-powered Canadians! the obscure and polite force that will Save the World, eh!
17:43:41 <oerjan> while mounted on horses.
17:44:38 <boily> horses are the prhoof of our down-to-earth pragmatism, of our survival skills in the Great White North, of our ability to make Poutine with whatever there is!
17:45:50 <Bike> i can only assume boily lives way up north in a town that only exists for the sake of a NORAD weather station
17:46:54 <oerjan> ok so that's what poutine is. it looks even less healthy than what i usually eat.
17:47:51 <boily> to make an original authentic Poutine you need three ingredients: French fries, cheese curds (fresh ones will squeak under your teeth), and poutine sauce.
17:48:07 <boily> some will argue that regular brown sauce is also an option, but they're heretics.
17:48:25 <oerjan> wp calls it "gravy" hth
17:48:39 <boily> don't trust wikipédia on that matter.
17:48:51 <boily> it's serious business.
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17:49:52 <boily> various toppings are perfectly acceptable and recommended. you can add: meat, peas, other cheeses, onions, bacon, sausage, peppers, tomato sauce, béchamel, [EXPUNGED], mushrooms, corn...
17:50:36 <boily> it is the canonical stomach-filler a traditional Québécois will get after a night out crawling the bars.
17:51:18 <oerjan> i see. in norway that's somehow become kebab.
17:51:30 <oerjan> although burgers will also do.
17:52:17 <oerjan> oh i guess sausages too, which may even be more traditional.
17:53:25 <boily> this restaurant is Montréal's reference: http://labanquise.com/ (English version available)
17:58:40 <boily> oerjan: looks like wp mentions the cult status of norwegian kebabs.
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18:22:28 <Roujo> I don't know how this works, but it does, so eh
18:23:44 <kmc> squeaky cheese is the best
18:24:04 <boily> Roujo: [$(1)$] with spurrious lines?
18:24:14 <kmc> kebab seems easier than poutine to eat on the go
18:24:18 <Roujo> Shows up as a dollar bill to me
18:24:54 <boily> kmc: pourine in throwaway coated cardboard platters is pretty easy to carry.
18:25:05 <kmc> U+18B96 GEORGE WASHINGTON'S FACE
18:25:22 <boily> s/pourine/poutine/
18:25:46 <boily> otoh, you can also get a good shish taouk, with random chicken bits in it!
18:26:15 <olsner> "random" chicken bits sounds fishy
18:26:57 <Bike> kmc: disappointed rn
18:27:01 <boily> olsner: it adds to the taste, with pickled beets, tomatoes, lettuces, and that garlicky mayonnaise.
18:27:46 <boily> my girlfriend and I have an ongoing argument whether tomatoes are authentic in shawarma wraps or not.
18:28:25 <Taneb> I have an ongoing argument with one of my friends on how to pronounce "sanguine"
18:29:15 <kmc> people keep arguing about how to pronounce "banal"
18:29:18 <kmc> "rhymes with anal"
18:29:38 <oerjan> the squeaky cheese gets the grease
18:29:42 <Taneb> boily, we agree on the first syllable
18:29:44 <kmc> boily: what about french fries in shawarma wraps
18:29:52 <Taneb> It's whether it's -win or -wine
18:30:01 <boily> kmc: on the side, not in.
18:30:08 <Bike> uh -wun obviously, do you not see the "u"
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18:30:24 <boily> Taneb: where does that [w] come from, you unorthodox unpronouncer that you are?
18:30:46 <Taneb> boily, I don't know, probably the Vikings
18:31:05 <olsner> Taneb: how about sangween?
18:31:16 <Taneb> After King Charles the Simple of France gave them land in Normandy, some of them learnt French
18:31:24 * boily lobs a Larousse dictionary at olsner
18:31:26 <Taneb> But the dialects diverged
18:31:39 <Taneb> Then these Franc-swedes conquered England
18:32:40 <olsner> boily: I thought we were talking about the English pronunciation of the word, not the Larousse pronunciation
18:34:23 <boily> oh. if you want the diverged version... I'd go with -ween.
18:35:14 <Taneb> Here's some handy advice for future people! Don't procrastinate applying for university accommodation!
18:36:07 <oerjan> <kmc> U+18B96 GEORGE WASHINGTON'S FACE <-- i'm suddenly imagining some code that secretly makes printers print perfect quality bills
18:37:31 <boily> oerjan: you'd need different codes for all the inks that compose a bank note.
18:37:32 <kmc> there should be a codepoint for the EURion constellation too
18:37:37 <Taneb> I've just had to pretty much say "I don't care where I live"
18:38:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you ensure your rdiff-backups are consistent? Do you do some lvm snapshotting or some such=
18:39:06 <boily> Taneb: who knows. maybe you'll get a very nice view of the campus, and the stars at night?
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18:39:35 <Taneb> But it will be hard to see with eyes full of tears
18:40:06 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't think future people are able to apply for university accomodation. maybe you should tell their parents instead.
18:40:32 <Taneb> oerjan, it doesn't apply right now
18:40:36 <Taneb> It's future advice
18:41:19 <boily> ah... the days of being a student...
18:42:17 <Vorpal> I lived at home during university, it was close enough for me. About 20 minutes of commute by car, about 45 by bus
18:42:19 <kmc> shachaf: what about french fries in shawarma wraps
18:42:57 <Roujo> boily: There's no pronounciation guide in the Larousse =P
18:43:03 <Roujo> Try a Robert instead =P
18:43:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, it's a couple of hours by train for me
18:43:17 <Taneb> And I'm not spending £30 a day to get to university
18:43:22 <Vorpal> Taneb, that wound be annoying yes
18:44:20 <boily> Roujo: I know. I'm cheap, and roberts are too costly :p
18:45:24 <Vorpal> Holy shit, I'm glad I used lvm everywhere now. LVM snapshots look super-awesome for doing system backups.
18:46:22 <boily> bacula all the way!
18:46:40 <boily> because nothing beats having to juggle tapes for backuping your stuff!
18:46:53 <Vorpal> boily, isn't bacula super-enterprisy?
18:47:14 <Vorpal> And does it only support tapes?
18:47:27 <Vorpal> I'll most likely be using rdiff-backup once the new external HDDs arrive
18:47:44 <boily> no, it's very geeky, with all the configuration files and settings and dæmons and twekable configurable behaviours.
18:48:18 <boily> and it supports just about any form of storage. I wouldn't be surprised if someone hooked a robotic arm with a sharpie duct taped to it and some paper reams to bacula.
18:48:42 <Vorpal> What I read about it, it sounded enterprisy
18:48:44 <kmc> Vorpal: I admin'd a machine with several thousand LVM snapshots, which caused the kernel to take several hours to boot
18:48:52 <kmc> I dunno if that's fixed or if it matters at smaller numbers of snapshots
18:49:03 <kmc> but it was super painful
18:49:04 <Vorpal> kmc, why would you ever do that?
18:49:09 <boily> kmc: what the fungot... how do you achieve that?
18:49:10 <fungot> boily: san. sir thomas louell, is the beginning of the day,
18:49:28 <boily> fungot: not quite. it's 14:48 here.
18:49:29 <fungot> boily: iago. is't come to this great accompt, on your charge, whereof you cannot easily purge yourself. i do demand, if you suspect the king will labour still to save his life.
18:49:37 <metasepia> iago definition: the villain of Shakespeare's tragedy '''Othello'''.
18:49:44 <kmc> Vorpal: a bunch of similar VMs as COW snapshots of a single Linux install
18:50:07 <Vorpal> kmc, Heh. Not sure several thousand VMs on a single machine is a good idea anyway
18:50:15 <kmc> they weren't all running at once...........
18:50:26 <kmc> but we needed to quickly boot a nearly arbitrary subset of them
18:50:33 <Vorpal> Anyway why did it make the kernel boot so slow?
18:50:54 <Vorpal> Oh, I assume it was reported then?
18:51:14 <Vorpal> I can not imagine a use case for quickly starting a subset of the machines.
18:52:10 <kmc> i'm sorry that your imagination is bad
18:52:26 <boily> `? vorpal's imagination
18:52:28 <HackEgo> vorpal's imagination? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:52:44 <kmc> we were testing rebootless kernel updates
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18:53:24 <Vorpal> Ah, that makes sense then indeed
18:53:36 <Vorpal> kmc, You were working on that hot patch project, whatever the name was?
18:53:41 <kmc> we supported like a dozen distribution-versions (e.g. "RHEL 5" or "Debian Squeeze") but each of these has published hundreds of kernel packages in different versions and flavors
18:53:51 <kmc> Vorpal: Ksplice. yeah, I worked there for 8 months, until they got bought by Oracle
18:54:02 <Vorpal> Ouch, Oracle got them too?
18:54:20 <boily> kmc: you worked for ksplice? neat!
18:54:54 <kmc> it was neat
18:57:13 <Vorpal> Hm doing consistent backups of postgresql is non-trivial it appears. Interesting
18:57:39 <olsner> my OS shall have seamless online kernel upgrades
18:58:13 <Vorpal> olsner, wait, when did you turn into elliott?
18:58:38 <Vorpal> Anyway I assume this is only the case for minor fixes? Or major upgrades too?
18:59:54 <boily> Vorpal: everyone is elliott, fsvo elliott.
19:00:53 <kmc> Vorpal: what's only the case?
19:01:35 <Vorpal> kmc, wrt olsner's statement
19:02:03 <kmc> olsner's statement that olsner's OS shall have seamless online kernel upgrades?
19:02:04 <olsner> Vorpal: well, I'd like it to handle all kinds of upgrades ... but the old and new kernel have to be "compatible" to do some kind of handoff, and perhaps it won't be practical to make *all* pairs of versions compatible
19:02:25 <Vorpal> olsner, you are actually making an OS?
19:02:47 <kmc> olsner: have youread the Ksplice paper? http://www.ksplice.com/doc/ksplice.pdf
19:02:54 <elliott> olsner was making an OS before I was
19:03:03 <kmc> before it was cool
19:03:16 <olsner> Vorpal: actually, I'm really only making a kernel
19:03:46 <kmc> anyway Ksplice does patches we considered "important" but not whole upgrades e.g. 3.10 to 3.11, which would be thousands of patches
19:03:49 <Vorpal> olsner, pretty cool still
19:04:00 <Vorpal> olsner, how usable is it at this point?
19:04:06 <kmc> most of the "important" patches are security fixes, and most security fixes are very localized changes e.g. adding a NULL pointer check somewhere
19:04:10 <kmc> because fuck C, etc.
19:04:19 <kmc> so those patches the tool can handle totally automatically
19:04:21 <olsner> Vorpal: approximately "not" usable
19:04:35 <Vorpal> olsner, is there even code for it?
19:04:49 <kmc> but some human intervention is needed to recognize the patches that can't be handled automatically (e.g. because they change the shape of a data structure) and deal with it accordingly
19:04:54 <kmc> and we had a variety of strategies for doing so
19:05:09 <elliott> it would be nice to see a kernel properly designed to handle what ksplice did without all the fuss
19:05:10 <Vorpal> kmc, going through all instances of a structure and updating it?
19:05:28 <kmc> I think the figure was 85% ish can be done automatically, and we almost never had an important patch that we plain couldn't do
19:05:30 <elliott> (yet another excuse for me to indulge in my operating-systems-in-exotic-languages fetish)
19:05:43 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah you can do that
19:05:50 <kmc> harder if the patch introduces a new field in a struct
19:05:59 <Vorpal> kmc, I imagine it can be a pain if a patch adds an extra entry to a central scheduler data structure maintained by RCU or some such :P
19:06:35 <Vorpal> And having RCU won't help when you need to change the layout
19:06:53 <Vorpal> kmc, do you stop all execution on all cores while patching? I would guess yes?
19:07:16 <Vorpal> Also what do you do when you would need to move code to fit in that extra null check?
19:07:36 <Vorpal> Just make the function call a different function instead?
19:07:41 <Vorpal> And put all the code there?
19:08:18 <kmc> we stop execution on all cores using stop_machine() and also walk the kernel stack of every process to make sure none of the functions to be patched are currently active
19:08:37 <elliott> so do oracle still maintain the ksplice functionality for their linux thing
19:08:37 <kmc> Vorpal: patching a function is always accomplished by overwriting the beginning of the function with a jump to new code
19:08:57 <kmc> the new code is loaded as part of the update, by loading a kernel module in the ordinary way
19:09:00 <kmc> elliott: yep they do it
19:09:10 <elliott> (I know the ksplice website claims it's part of Oracle Linux now but it also hasn't been updated since 2011 and I don't trust anything they say)
19:09:11 <kmc> elliott: it's a big deal for them because it's like the only feature Oracle Linux has that Red Hat doesn't
19:09:31 <Vorpal> kmc, so redhat no longer get ksplices then?
19:09:46 <kmc> shachaf: do you approve
19:09:49 <kmc> Vorpal: correct
19:09:54 <Vorpal> kmc, couldn't they do it on their own, or is it patented or something silly like that?
19:09:56 <kmc> except legacy customers of ksplice maybe
19:10:07 <kmc> Vorpal: they could but they never did
19:10:18 <elliott> well it's presumably a ton of work
19:10:19 <kmc> the (old version of) core ksplice tools are open source
19:10:28 <Vorpal> kmc, the new ones aren't?
19:10:30 <kmc> but yes it's a ton of work and we had a ton of internal tools to help us do it
19:10:38 <elliott> and I suspect Red Hat can do other things to make more money that are less work
19:10:42 <kmc> Vorpal: the public repositories haven't seen updates in quite a while
19:10:52 <elliott> instead of duplicating something complicated enough to be its own company :P
19:10:54 <kmc> elliott: yeah like selling enterprise Java middleware, whatever the fuck that is
19:11:11 <kmc> well Red Hat is huge and Ksplice was tiny so shrug
19:11:13 <kmc> they could do it
19:11:18 <kmc> Red Hat has many of the top kernel people in the world
19:11:48 <kmc> (so does Oracle)
19:12:23 <Vorpal> Who pays Torvalds btw?
19:12:29 <Vorpal> Linux Foundation thingy still?
19:12:38 <kmc> I'm not sure
19:12:45 <kmc> I don't care enough to Google it for you
19:12:56 <elliott> "Running Red Hat Enterprise Linux? Get a taste of one of the many features Oracle Linux Premier Support has to offer with our free 30-day Ksplice trial for RHEL systems."
19:13:04 <elliott> uh can you pay for it if you're on RHEL
19:13:11 <elliott> or do they just say "ok, now switch to Oracle Linux"
19:13:14 <kmc> yeah you can pay for Oracle support for RHEL
19:13:21 <kmc> since they're basically the same thing ;P
19:13:22 <kmc> but you should read the Ksplice paper
19:13:29 <elliott> When your trial ends, we'd be happy to help you make the switch to Oracle Linux Premier Support so you can enjoy Ksplice for as long as you want.
19:13:52 <kmc> I think the coolest part of the Ksplice tech is the way we use a dynamic un-linker to find non-exported things (to patch them or refer to them from new code)
19:13:54 <elliott> "here is a free trial for a single feature of our operating system; once it's over we'll help you switch the entire thing"
19:14:11 <kmc> elliott: yeah well like I said, it's the only different feature ;)
19:14:31 <kmc> lunch, brb
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19:41:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't. But snapshots are certainly a possibility.
19:42:03 <Vorpal> I don't get the point of ubuntu vs. kubuntu vs. xubuntu... It just seems like a different default package selection + different logo package to me
19:42:16 <Vorpal> Or have I missed something?
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19:44:33 <oerjan> it's all due to bantu grammar, really. hth.
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19:47:28 <boily> that must be one of the best reasons to explain anything I have ever seen. when I'll have kids, I'll use that one profusely :D
19:49:18 <Vorpal> I don't think any other distro makes different versions based on the DE. Not that I know of at least
19:49:59 <Vorpal> It is usually, "select whichever DE the fuck you want" during the installer. Or defaults to one and then easily lets you change after
19:50:11 * Vorpal is running MATE on Debian atm for example.
19:51:18 <boily> am I the only fluxboxer left on the planet?
19:52:03 <Vorpal> I tried it, but I never found it to be the best alternative at the time.
19:52:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mint, I think, technically has "Linux Mint N Xfce", "Linux Mint N KDE", etc. -- where N is the version number -- as different versions.
19:52:21 <fizzie> Not that there's probably any more difference between them than Xubuntu/etc.
19:52:26 <Vorpal> These days I use xfce or MATE, depending on the system specs
19:52:44 <fizzie> I think I used two "box" wm's.
19:53:02 <fizzie> Is "openbox" a window manager?
19:53:08 <fizzie> Apparently so. I think I've used it.
19:53:19 <fizzie> (Must've made a great impression.)
19:53:34 <boily> openbox is nice, except for the horrendous XML part.
19:53:37 <fizzie> I guess the other box might've been fluxbox for all I know.
19:53:40 <Vorpal> Well I started on KDE 2 (or early 3? I don't remember, whatever Red Hat 5 shipped with), then a bit of KDE 3 followed by Gnome 2. Followed by Xfce, followed by MATE
19:53:59 <fizzie> I started on fvwm95 and I'm not ashamed at all. (That might be a bit of a lie.)
19:54:20 <Vorpal> Well technically I believe I started on twm, trying to figure out what the hell was going wrong at the time
19:54:33 <Vorpal> Which wasn't easy since I was a newbie at that point
19:54:46 <boily> I started on KDE2 I think (whatever Mandrake had ten years ago), then hopped among the whole bunch like an addict trying to get high on something new and dubious.
19:55:00 <fizzie> fvwm95 wasn't too hard to figure out as a new user, unsurprisingly.
19:55:04 <boily> wm2 left a good impression. sadly, it was a *tad* underpowered.
19:55:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't that win9x-inspired or something?
19:55:32 <boily> fvwm is neat, but to have a successful configuration file you need to spend at least 25 hours per day on it.
19:55:38 <fizzie> It's a win9x-inspired variant of fvwm.
19:55:45 <Vorpal> boily, never used wm2, never heard of it. What is it about?
19:55:47 <boily> Vorpal: I feel icewm is the most windowsian of them all.
19:55:47 <fizzie> Then I tried out Enlightenment but my computer wasn't fast enough to run it.
19:56:00 <fizzie> (Then I just used WindowMaker for years.)
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19:56:24 <boily> Vorpal: I think you can still compile it, but you may have some difficulties as it was originally for X10 or somesuch.
19:56:25 <Vorpal> Enlightenment, the bling of the bling
19:56:39 <boily> Vorpal: http://xwinman.org/wm2.php
19:57:11 <boily> fizzie: I never got the hang of windowmaker. always got confused by that papercornerclip thingie.
19:57:37 <fizzie> boily: I remember the thingie, but not really much about the thingie.
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19:57:51 <fizzie> You could dock other little squares next to it or something.
19:57:58 <fizzie> At least I seem to recall there was a row of squares.
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20:02:21 <boily> fizzie: your becoming as clear and explicit as I am. I don't think that's a good thing. please remain understandable.
20:02:31 <metasepia> The form of a used before words beginning with a vowel or with an unpronounced h: an elephant; an hour.
20:02:40 <fizzie> Oh, it was just clumsy fingers.
20:02:59 <fizzie> As far as small keyboards go, this one is okay (personal opinion alert), but it's still small.
20:03:28 <fizzie> (I was aiming for ^a-n, actually.)
20:03:42 <boily> I'm looking for a nice and compact keyboard online, but everywhere I looked it was at least a hundred bucks to get an electro-mechanical piece of plastic.
20:04:50 <fizzie> boily: This is the Microsoft Wedge; but it's a small Bluetooth keyboard, which might well not be what you're looking for.
20:05:13 <fizzie> (I'm just using it with the Nexus 7 on trips.)
20:05:28 <boily> anything that has keys, no keypad, and a long tracking with quality keys.
20:06:00 <fizzie> Well, it's got the first two.
20:06:04 <boily> oh, and that I can play crawl on it. no weird key layout.
20:06:22 <fizzie> The cursor keys on this (and too many others) are slightly weird.
20:06:38 <boily> not a problem. I vimified everything on my machine a long time ago.
20:06:49 <fizzie> It's this [left][half-height up-and-down keys][right] kind of arrangement.
20:06:52 <boily> my cursor keys are gathering dust (as is the unused keypad)
20:07:16 <fizzie> It has this "keyboard cover turns into a tablet stand" feature which happens to fit the Nexus 7 (in portrait mode) quite nicely.
20:07:25 <olsner> ooh, xwinman.org was nice, there are all those window managers I've used and forgotten!
20:07:33 <fizzie> I don't know if I'd buy this for a general-purpose keyboard, though.
20:08:22 <boily> some cow orkers use a typematrix. I tried one for about an hour. the feeling of unfengshuiness that emanated from that horror... bletch!
20:08:39 <boily> I mean. having your 'b' key divorced from your 'n' key. the horror!
20:08:49 <boily> (I am snob and bourgeois and I like that.)
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20:10:16 <fizzie> (I have to go to a funeral that's like 530-or-so kilometres from where I live, and it's at noon tomorrow, so we drove here tonight because leaving at something like 3-4am, driving for six-seven hours, going to a funeral, then driving back home the same day didn't sound very appealing.)
20:10:47 <fizzie> (Train schedules were a bit iffy.)
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20:14:10 <Vorpal> fuck youtube. It is cutting videos short all the time for me nowdays.
20:14:25 <Vorpal> It is so bad that I stopped watching in my browser, now I use a script calling youtube-dl in a loop until the return code is 0, then watch in vlc
20:14:43 <Vorpal> atm, I have a terminal with maybe 10 or so lines like: ERROR: content too short (expected 263738018 bytes and served 15169721)
20:16:52 <fizzie> Bah: I ran this Android demo, and now I've got the kewlers middle-finger logo stuck in the alt-tab menu; it's like this tablet is giving me the finger.
20:17:20 <fizzie> Hm, or maybe the alt-tab menu follows the app history whateveritscalled dealie, where you can drag things off.
20:17:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, alt-tab on a tablet? What?
20:18:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm using it with an external keyboard. (See above for details, though they're not especially interesting.)
20:18:16 <Vorpal> Ah, I never tried alt-tab on my phone
20:18:26 <Vorpal> I should, I have an USB OTG cable
20:18:45 <olsner> fizzie: oh, alt-tab is mapped to the thingy? or did you have to add an app for that?
20:18:56 <fizzie> olsner: I didn't add anything, it was already there.
20:19:03 <fizzie> olsner: It's a different UI to it, though.
20:19:15 <fizzie> It only shows the last eight entries, and it's very much like the win9x alt-tab menu.
20:19:40 <fizzie> (For the record, this is a stock Android 4.2.2.)
20:20:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, Last 4 for me on my phone
20:26:38 <fizzie> (I also found it by accident, basically thought "it would be nice to be able to use something like alt-tab to switch programs" "hmm" "I guess I could try it".)
20:27:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you get non-US layout?
20:27:50 <fizzie> I don't know, this worked with its printed (Finnish) layout without doing anything.
20:27:57 <fizzie> It's a Bluetooth and not a USB keyboard, though.
20:28:35 <Vorpal> Hm can't get past the pattern lock with the keyboard XD
20:28:52 <fizzie> Settings / Language and Input seems to have a "Physical keyboard" entry for it, at least.
20:29:19 <Vorpal> which android version?
20:30:00 <fizzie> (And the keyboard was BT, if you missed that.)
20:30:05 <Vorpal> Isn't Nexus 7 on 4.3 now?
20:30:17 <fizzie> It is, but I haven't bothered to update yet.
20:30:27 <fizzie> (Also I've heard rumours there's worse battery life on 4.3.)
20:33:47 <elliott> does anyone know how to put scissor switch keycaps back on properly
20:34:23 <elliott> this is especially annoying because only half of it came off and taking off the other half looks unwise :/
20:34:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to hook them on from one end usually and then press down the other end to clip that end on
20:34:41 <elliott> pressing down from the other end not so successful
20:34:47 <fizzie> I've always understood the correct answer is "with great difficulty".
20:34:55 <elliott> maybe I can take a picture
20:35:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well if it was the wrong end that got lose you might need to take it off entirely and put it back
20:35:23 <fizzie> (Though what Vorpal described more or less worked on the one keyboard where I had to do it.)
20:35:38 <Vorpal> the method I described worked fine on my old ibook and also my thinkpad
20:35:46 <elliott> the other end looks pretty scarily attached (as in I am not sure I could reattach it if it came off)
20:35:49 <Vorpal> On the ibook I took them off once to clean the bloody thing
20:35:50 <elliott> will try to take a picture later
20:36:24 <Vorpal> elliott, The spacebar and possibly some other big keys usually have a metal bar under as well that need to hook into some slots
20:36:49 <fizzie> The space bar in my iBook cracked so that there was this long diagonal cut in it, it was kind of weird.
20:36:56 <fizzie> Never had that happen to a key before.
20:37:22 <fizzie> It didn't go all the way from top-to-bottom, there was just this \ there.
20:37:33 <Vorpal> I imagine it would be much harder to deattach or reattach keys if you have those spaced keys with stuff inbetween?
20:37:33 <elliott> oh nice, it looks like I can have either end connected
20:37:43 <elliott> if I push it it switches which end is connected, if I pull it it goes back
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20:38:22 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it is usually one end that have the hooks (the upper in both cases that I had), and the other end that has the clip on bit
20:38:23 <elliott> uh is there a simple way to take photos on Windows so I can show this
20:38:54 <Vorpal> Or what are you talking about
20:38:57 <elliott> did you know there is a computer operating system by Microsoft Corporation called Windows
20:39:13 <Vorpal> You can't easily take photos with a fixed built in web cam I'd assume
20:39:21 <Vorpal> or do you have a freestanding one?
20:39:31 <metasepia> lemur definition: any of various arboreal chiefly nocturnal prosimian primates (superfamily Lemuroidea) that were formerly widespread but are now largely confined to Madagascar and that usually have a longish muzzle, large eyes, very soft woolly fur, and a long furry tail.
20:40:21 <Vorpal> elliott, If it is fixed to the top of the screen, I would doubt it can catch the keyboard (unless it is not the built in keyboard in the laptop
20:40:37 <elliott> the built in one is also broken
20:41:02 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway we would probably need a high quality macro to make out the details of those tiny little switches
20:41:46 <Vorpal> Anyway I don't know how to take a photo with the webcam
20:42:11 <fizzie> You can open a Skype chat and ask the other end to take a screenshot. :p
20:42:19 <Vorpal> Also I need to sleep. Going to work tomorrow. Getting in the car at around 06:50.
20:42:47 <fizzie> I should probably sleep too, on account of the aforementioned funeral.
20:42:47 <kmc> good night Vorpal
20:42:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch what happened?
20:43:17 <Vorpal> And condolences and so on
20:43:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was something kind of expected -- dying at the age of 87 doesn't quite count as a life tragically cut short -- so we're not all that shocked about it.
20:44:12 <fizzie> But it would still probably be bad form to drop the coffin out of tiredness or something.
20:44:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, Quite, no urn?
20:44:25 <elliott> does this photo-taking program really want to run fullscreen
20:44:30 <fizzie> (I'll have to be part of the people carrying the thing.)
20:45:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: There was a regular gravestone apparently already waiting.
20:45:25 <fizzie> (Where her husband is buried.)
20:45:34 <Vorpal> You need special gravestone for urn burial?
20:45:47 <elliott> accidentally removed the key
20:45:52 <elliott> while trying to hold it to take a picture
20:45:58 <fizzie> No, I mean, there was a gravestone at the regular cemetery, so I guess she wanted to be buried there.
20:46:26 <fizzie> (I think urns get deposited in a different place? I don't know, I haven't killed... I mean, been in very many funerals.)
20:46:36 <Vorpal> Okay, but don't they support cremation at the regular cemetery?
20:46:40 <elliott> okay so are you supposed toattach it from the bottom or the top
20:46:52 <elliott> fizzie: (I think Vorpal is doing the moralising thing.)
20:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, on my keyboard it is top to bottom I believe
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20:47:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I'm just confused, as I never heard of anyone not getting cremated these days. I thought it was pretty rare to skip that. Or is that just a Swedish thing?
20:48:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't really have much to do with this side of the thing. But I was under the impression that they only bury regular coffins in the "standard" cemetery spots, and have a different place for urns.
20:48:38 <fizzie> And cremation certainly isn't the default in Finland.
20:48:55 <Vorpal> Interesting how customs differ between cultures
20:49:03 <Vorpal> But I guess then that is what makes a culture
20:49:06 <elliott> uh I hope I haven't broken this
20:49:21 <Bike> europe is weird
20:49:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I found them fairly easy to reattach
20:49:35 <fizzie> "Scandinavian countries' cremation rate vary from Finland's and Norway's 36% to Sweden's 70% and Denmark's 76%."
20:49:53 <boily> ain't Estonia also in Scandinavia?
20:50:10 <Bike> Vorpal: less than half of dead here are cremated
20:50:10 <fizzie> boily: Haven't you read satw? Certainly not. :p
20:50:15 <Vorpal> I always confuse Scandinavia and Nordic
20:50:20 <elliott> now it's back to how it was when it popped off a little
20:50:33 <elliott> can still switch which part it's attached to
20:50:41 <boily> fizzie: of course I do read satw. it's just a personal opinion on the matter :D
20:51:02 <elliott> slightly worried that this is not going to be a thing that is fixable
20:51:09 <Vorpal> elliott, guess some bit of plastic is slightly broken then?
20:51:19 <elliott> well it attaches perfectly to both ends individually
20:51:22 <elliott> just... not at the same time
20:51:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you should take an xray of other keys and compare
20:52:00 <elliott> I literally just switched to this one a couple of days ago
20:52:09 <fizzie> Finland's inclusion in the term "Scandinavia" is also quite debated.
20:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, so warranty then?
20:52:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it a Nordic country then?
20:52:34 <elliott> well if I get it fixed then I'll need a new keyboard to use in the interim
20:52:38 <elliott> so I might as well just buy a new one if anything
20:52:59 <Vorpal> elliott, just go back to the shop and demand a new one?
20:53:10 <elliott> I guess you could argue that physical stores exist
20:53:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would think it's at least that. But some do count us as part of Scandinavia too.
20:53:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use an on-screen keyboard meanwhile?
20:53:46 <fizzie> Even though we're not all that much on the Scandinavian Peninsula, except maybe the northern bit.
20:54:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure that is what Windows 9 will use, judging by the way of windows 8
20:54:08 <elliott> okay yeah, time to just get used to my f key being slightly fucked for now I guess
20:54:16 <Phantom_Hoover> was satw right about scotland getting a free pass into the whole nordic thing
20:54:24 <Bike> slightly ducked 4 now
20:54:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what keyboard model (so I can avoid?)
20:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not voting yes on a referendum that puts me in a room with the swedes
20:54:53 <boily> itertools.groupby() is completely brain damaged.
20:54:56 <Bike> i think i'd prefer a room with swedes to a room with england
20:55:29 <elliott> Vorpal: uh this is probably more me than the keyboard
20:55:36 <elliott> but it's some Kensington scissor-switch thing that I doubt you'd buy anyway
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20:55:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how fucking hard do you hit those keys!?
20:56:04 <elliott> I don't, I just habitually poke my fingers in the gaps
20:56:16 <Vorpal> that is pretty stupid yes
20:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, my old keyboard lasted for.... 11 years? Then some sort of controller broke. It was PS/2.
20:57:16 <Vorpal> Like a third of the keys just stopped working
20:57:36 <Vorpal> I doubt my current USB keyboard will last as long. Build quality isn't what it used to be.
21:01:47 <elliott> god dammit, it got more broken
21:08:09 <kmc> rust stdlib has a type named Finallyalizer
21:09:49 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/3575
21:10:41 <kmc> i think so
21:13:58 <boily> theres a bottom milestone. heh.
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22:02:04 <boily> let's hope the metro will work tonight...
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23:08:34 <pikhq> Gregor: How... how exactly do you like Moxie?
23:10:45 <Gregor> pikhq: Because it is the most delicious thing ever made.
23:11:10 <pikhq> Its flavor is best described as "medicinal"..
23:11:54 <elliott> try holding your nose when testing it for the true Gregor experience
23:12:11 <pikhq> This is a good call.
23:12:18 <pikhq> It probably fnarfs better than it tastes.
23:12:41 <Koen_> I don't think any of you is passing the turing test right now
23:12:43 <pikhq> It does in fact fnarf better than it tastes.
23:13:16 <pikhq> Koen_: Fnarf. Noun. That particular sense analogous to taste that only anosmics experience regularly.
23:13:47 <pikhq> Yep, the fnarf of it isn't bad.
23:14:30 <Bike> did you like just drink some
23:14:36 * kmc juggles some chainsaws
23:15:07 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, I found a bottle of Moxie and purchased it on a whim.
23:15:39 <pikhq> Taste-wise, well. It's better than Tentacle Grape?
23:16:20 <pikhq> I've no idea how that fnarfs, but it tastes like tentacle grape.
23:17:19 <pikhq> Gregor: Is it not meant to be served cold or something?
23:17:31 <Gregor> Enjoy cold with deliciousness.
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04:53:55 <coppro> xkcd is pretty good again
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05:14:47 <Sgeo> http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/345182258
05:15:45 <Bike> "one crazy scholar decided Jesus was physically disabled and that this had such-and-so effects on his psychology as a child and as an adult." ok, i need to see this.
05:16:16 <Bike> Anyway why are you linking this
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05:21:04 <coppro> best completely random book I've read:
05:22:33 <coppro> hmm, can't seem to find it :(
05:24:17 <shachaf> well you gotta have a probability distribution on books first
05:25:23 <coppro> http://www.amazon.com/When-Science-Wrong-Simon-LeVay/dp/0452289327
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07:14:44 <oerjan> <coppro> hmm, can't seem to find it :( <-- try a completely random place hth
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12:45:35 <Jafet> `quote Mozilla/5.0
12:50:16 <Jafet> `pastelogs Mozilla/5.0
12:50:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26459
12:57:01 <Jafet> So, google drive blocks you based on user-agent
12:57:27 <Jafet> And no, it does not understand Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit KHTML Gecko Chrome Safari
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13:31:27 <metasepia> CYMX 231300Z 36007KT 45SM FEW015 FEW210 17/11 A3008 RMK CF1CI1 CF TR CI TR SLP187 DENSITY ALT 300FT
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14:29:31 <Roujo> Well that's pretty nice: https://github.com/bolknote/SedChess
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14:49:05 <Roujo> That took me a while to get =P
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15:43:24 <Roujo> The last time I went OOM, a couple of people died
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16:19:08 <olsner> oom is horrible, linux *never* chooses the right process
16:19:33 <olsner> oh, git running out of memory? kill mysql and corrupt the database!
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17:43:27 <Vorpal> What *are* those strange oblong plastic sticker things with metal strips inside you sometimes find in products you got from a shop?
17:44:11 <olsner> Vorpal: the things that makes the beepers go beep if you don't pay
17:45:21 <Vorpal> olsner, why would I find it in something I got from cdon though???
17:45:24 <olsner> (they resonate to produce a radio pulse when activated by the exit gates - a large magnet at the register destroys parts of the circuits so it stops working)
17:45:44 <Vorpal> olsner, Also, isn't that usually larger things that sprays colors if you try to remove them iirc?
17:46:08 <Vorpal> There are *circuits* inside? Looks like 3 plain metal strips simply
17:46:14 <olsner> there are, you know, several alternative systems for theft prevention
17:46:54 <Vorpal> olsner, yeah in this one it is just 3 plain metal strips
17:47:31 <olsner> there are probably other layers of the sticker that combine those strips into some sort of coil-like thing
17:48:32 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_article_surveillance
17:48:55 <Vorpal> olsner, ah it is one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Acousto-magnetic-tag-cutaway.jpg
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19:04:06 <kmc> "Augmented assignments are not unique to python. They are found in C, Java, Perl, Go, Ruby, JavaScript etc. One could argue that if they were so terrible, they would never have made it to so many programming languages...."
19:05:36 <Gregor> Are there people who are enormously against +=?
19:05:46 <kmc> don't know
19:06:06 <kmc> somebody said "I think augmented assignments are a terrible ideas and one of the worst features of python" but declined to follow up on that statement in any way
19:06:53 <Roujo> What's an augmented assignement? +=?
19:07:32 -!- Bike has joined.
19:07:46 <kmc> apparently
19:07:51 <kmc> was not familiar with the term before today
19:08:31 <coppro> haskell has them if you have lenses
19:11:54 <lambdabot> (Num a, MonadState s m) => ASetter' s a -> a -> m ()
19:12:22 <oerjan> > (_1 += 3) `runState` (5, True)
19:12:35 <Bike> kmc: lol @ popularity argument.
19:13:59 <oerjan> > (both += 3) `runState` (1, 42)
19:14:17 <Bike> it's like you're really coding C!
19:19:17 <Koen_> is 'both' only working for a pair?
19:19:24 <Koen_> as in not for triples
19:21:13 <Koen_> it feels like you're making stuff up along the way
19:22:53 <kmc> \rainbow{lenses}
19:23:02 <kmc> also \rainbow{prisms}
19:23:19 <kmc> prisms are some kind of dual to lenses and you're required to listen to dark side of the moon when you use them
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19:34:38 <kmc> the issue here is that you might want to overload += separately from +, for efficiency, but then you can break the equivalence a += b <=> a = a + b
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19:35:56 <olsner> I wonder what "NOTE: Packets from the Internet are evenly transmitted to the wired and wireless devices." means
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19:53:49 <Gregor> olsner: It simplifies routing if instead of actually giving each packet to the appropriate target, you just go round-robin.
19:55:19 <olsner> yeah, that's probably what it means
20:10:06 <Taneb> The future's in our hands in our hands and we will never be the same again...
20:10:44 <Taneb> Oh dear has oerjan started lensing
20:11:16 <oerjan> um i did that a while ago
20:11:39 <Taneb> Sorry I haven't been paying attention
20:11:45 <Taneb> oerjan, get out while you still can
20:11:47 <oerjan> used them in my emmental building program
20:13:54 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental#Computability_class
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20:19:15 <Taneb> Did you see that dragon curve I drew using Haskell?
20:19:44 <kmc> "oh dear oerjan started lasing"
20:20:20 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/Nathan's_Stuff/d.svg
20:20:41 <Taneb> Source code: http://lpaste.net/92030
20:21:34 <kmc> you're using Diagrams!
20:21:35 <kmc> that library rocks
20:22:34 <oerjan> hm i looked at it the other day and saw a comment that it generated inefficient svg.
20:23:32 <Taneb> I think the problem is that it generates SVGs inefficiently
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20:28:29 <Taneb> Which is actively being worked on
20:28:36 <Taneb> I think my program is now being used as a benchmark
20:33:05 <Taneb> I think the source generated is pretty good for what is essentially one really wiggly line
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20:55:39 <Taneb> Actual quote from a book I am reading: "Possibly the Romans would not have hampered themselves by this unfortunate inversion if humans reproduced by external fertilization like frogs."
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20:58:21 <Taneb> What does it mean? I don't know!
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21:00:54 <Taneb> Also I think I've just joined an anime society
21:10:30 <kmc> congratsneb
21:11:32 <Taneb> I'm not even at uni yet!
21:14:35 <kmc> university is a fine time to experiment with anime
21:20:32 <Koen_> we had an anime club at my university. they... 'experiment' a lot
21:25:55 <olsner> http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack nice
21:26:17 <olsner> (he eventually ... installs linux on his hard drive!)
21:26:36 <kmc> Koen_: oh?
21:27:03 <Koen_> well they share room with the gay lesbian and bi club
21:27:18 <Koen_> and with the first-aid club
21:29:03 <Taneb> That sounds like a recipe for very safe disaster
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21:38:37 <Taneb> I came to a disconcerting realization today
21:38:57 <Taneb> There could easily be people alive who have a great-great grandparent younger than my grandmother
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21:43:06 <kmc> I think the part of my brain that registers disconcertingness can't deal with the complexity of that statement
21:43:09 <kmc> so I'm safe
21:44:29 <Taneb> My gran's 86, right?
21:45:43 <olsner> is that greater than a great-great grandparent?
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22:09:31 <Taneb> Okay, assuming it is acceptable to have a child when you are 20
22:10:01 <Taneb> A child born today could have parents who are 20, grandparents who are 40, great-grandparents who are 60, great-great-grandparents who are 80
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22:22:26 <Koen_> that's a lot of 20 in a row
22:23:37 <Koen_> also, why don't you have a child already?
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22:23:54 <olsner> maybe because he's not 20 yet?
22:24:16 <Koen_> oh that's a work in progress then
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22:36:32 <doesthiswork> I just watched the subtext demo and it is pretty cool
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23:06:05 <Bike> «Singularity IS TOO coming soon. Ray the K says, & he knows» lol
23:06:42 <kmc> the Singularity Institute sold the name "Singularity" to Kurzweil because they were sick of being confused with him
23:06:52 <kmc> so now SingInst is MIRI -- Machine Intelligence Research Institute
23:06:58 <kmc> also Kurzweil works at Google (???)
23:07:13 <kmc> I assume he wanders the hallways rambling
23:07:16 <Bike> that reading stuff maybe
23:07:29 <Bike> or uh, i don't know much about him, did he just finance that or actually engineer it
23:07:57 <elliott> kmc: uh, I think they sold it to Singularity University
23:08:12 <Bike> i refuse to believe most of these organizations exist btw
23:09:15 <Bike> this was in response to "NEUROHULK" which i just found out exists. glad
23:09:47 <Bike> "AFTER ISOLATING THE STOMATOGASTRIC GANGLION THE TAIL WAS FROZEN FOR LATER USE IN LAB LOBSTER COOKOFF #OVERLYHONESTMETHODS"
23:10:45 <Bike> kind of wonder if they actually do that. i mean there /are/ a lot of lobsters involved here.......
23:11:59 <olsner> it seems more ethical to kill animals for research if you also eat them for food
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23:54:23 <pikhq> It's pretty darned easy to set up an organization.
23:59:42 <olsner> yes, even I've set up an organization once
23:59:51 <kmc> it's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake
23:59:53 <olsner> (it was an anime society)
00:04:06 <olsner> in retrospect, joining the git list then not reading it was kind of pointless... now I just have 9000 mails about git that I'm not going to read
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00:23:43 <ion> That happened to me, then i just unsubscribed. :-P
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00:41:08 <doesthiswork> taneb: inversion is another name for homosexual
00:42:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_inversion_(sexology)
00:42:57 <elliott> it's a little bit more complicated than just "old word for 'gay'" I think
00:49:03 <kmc> I need a "days until everyone stops talking about Burning Man because they are in the desert" countdown
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01:47:13 <Sgeo> ESIs seem kind of strange, like an application-level thing brought to the caching layer for reasons of tehnical necessity rather than conceptual elegancy
01:47:23 <Bike> no i like elegancy
01:47:53 <Sgeo> Maybe caching layers should have some kind of hooks allowing applications to build their own ESI-like things... somehow
01:48:08 <Sgeo> Not at all thinking about how that could work
01:52:14 <Sgeo> I've never seen the word 'copy' used to refer to user-visible strings before starting work, but now, I see it all the time even outside work
01:53:23 <Sgeo> That sort of thing, yeah
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02:04:28 <doesthiswork> msg lambdabot 'tell taneb This might help with your quote about greeks and frogs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_inversion_(sexology)
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02:19:04 <kmc> nice http://adainitiative.org/2013/08/galois-makes-1000-matching-donation-challenge-to-support-women-in-open-source/
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03:39:53 <shachaf> kmc: who's water bill and why did you owe him money
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03:43:02 <kmc> `relcome jconn
03:43:08 <HackEgo> jconn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:43:14 <kmc> `paste bin/relcome
03:43:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/relcome
03:43:45 <kmc> `run printf '#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | rainwords\n' > bin/rwlcome && chmod +x bin/rwlcome
03:43:50 <kmc> `rwlcome jconn
03:43:52 <HackEgo> jconn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:43:59 <kmc> looks better imo
03:44:05 <elliott> that already exists I think
03:44:13 <kmc> well now it exists... exactly as many times
03:44:14 <elliott> also you're welcoming a bot :P
03:44:20 <kmc> jconn: 2+2
03:44:24 <kmc> jconn: fungot
03:44:24 <jconn> kmc: |value error: fungot
03:44:25 <fungot> kmc: york. richard, i am subiect to a wel-wisht king quit their owne part, can you not reade it? is it thy spirit that thou send'st from thee so far from home, but he weares them not handsomely
03:44:25 <Bike> jconn is the people's hero, elliott
03:44:40 <Jafet> `run grep -l rainwords -IR bin
03:44:40 <kmc> jconn: who taught you that joke?
03:44:41 <jconn> kmc: who (taught you that joke ?)
03:44:42 <HackEgo> bin/rwelcome \ bin/rwlcome
03:45:04 <Jafet> `run grep -l welcome -IR bin
03:45:05 <HackEgo> bin/WELCOME \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/emoclew \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/wehlcohme \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/wow \ bin/zalgreet \ bin/welcome13 \ bin/bienvenido \ bin/rwlcome
03:45:19 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:45:28 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :tefaj
03:45:29 <shachaf> zomg since when is that there
03:45:52 <Jafet> `run grep -l rainwords -IR bin | cat -v
03:45:53 <HackEgo> bin/rwelcome \ bin/rwlcome
03:45:59 <Bike> can't help but notice `welcome doesn't name the welcomed person!
03:46:01 <Jafet> `run grep -l welcome -IR bin | cat -v
03:46:02 <HackEgo> bin/WELCOME \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/emoclew \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/wehlcohme \ bin/welcome \ bin/^Bwelcome \ bin/wow \ bin/zalgreet \ bin/welcome13 \ bin/bienvenido \ bin/rwlcome
03:46:24 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :ekiB
03:48:21 <shachaf> kmc: when are you coming to mountain view
03:56:41 <kmc> uh, I'm biking from Millbrae, plan to arrive in MV around noon
03:56:46 <kmc> but that's subject to heavy variance
03:57:35 <kmc> both on my end and because the people I'm meeting may not be in MV by noon
03:58:07 <kmc> we'll actually be heading through EPA... should I call you if we're in EPA and have time to stop?
04:00:02 <shachaf> i was thinking in a couple of weeks or something
04:03:14 <kmc> that was re: tomorrow
04:06:31 <shachaf> my father is in ca until ~thu so i'll probably not be around epa
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05:22:47 <Gracenotes> hm, I should get my chain lubed so I can better manage longer rides.
05:22:53 <Gracenotes> or maybe I should just get a road bike
05:22:58 <Bike> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1806558764/st-paul-reincarnated-twice
05:23:09 <kmc> what kind of bike do you have Gracenotes?
05:24:35 <kmc> "Those who donate 10 dollars or more will receive an ebook explaining techniques so they can discover more about their own past lives."
05:24:45 <elliott> Bike: not even one backer? that's sad
05:25:12 <kmc> wait only $100 to interview St. Paul the Apostle?
05:25:15 <kmc> that's a p. good deal
05:25:58 <Bike> elliott turns out to be the reincarnation of Jo of Bethlehem, who once jostled Jesus Christ in a line to pick up oranges and quickly apologized
05:26:41 <kmc> im the reincarnation of the fig tree that jesus yelled at for no reason
05:27:04 <shachaf> Bike: did you read that one book
05:27:13 <Bike> meanwhile, i was a cambodian rice farmer. you jerks get all the attention
05:27:51 <kmc> Experience: Rice farmer, self-employed, 1523-present
05:27:53 <Bike> Oh, Master and Margarita? yeah
05:27:58 <kmc> Skills: Rice farming, cultivation of rice, MS Office
05:28:29 <Bike> it was funny realizing it was the only book i'd read that had parts set in roman judea
05:28:47 <Bike> "wow, you'd think people would have covered this more often"
05:29:08 <kmc> pkd thought we were all secretly living in roman judea
05:29:10 <kmc> or something
05:29:16 <kmc> a pink laser beam from outer space told him this
05:29:33 <Bike> yeah but he didn't like, depict rome, except insofar as depicting 1970s california and saying it was secretly rome
05:30:13 <Bike> plus valis was kind of too crazy to be much of a novel. the divine invasion had more of a plot imooooo
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05:35:25 <shachaf> Bike: did you read that other book
05:35:47 <shachaf> i didn't even have a book in mind that time
05:35:50 <Bike> what other...................................
05:36:08 <shachaf> just hoping that you would name one
05:36:26 <Bike> naked lunch? no
05:38:16 <kmc> i have that book
05:40:56 <Sgeo> I suddenly want salt water
05:40:59 <Sgeo> Salt water tastes good
05:41:02 <Sgeo> Salt tastes good
05:41:06 <Sgeo> Garlic salt tastes good
05:41:15 <kmc> then you probably are low on salt
05:41:33 <Sgeo> I just had a bunch of salty peanuts
05:41:44 <Sgeo> Haven't had garlic salt since forever :(
05:42:21 <Sgeo> How did ancient seafaring people learn that they can't drink the water?
05:42:28 <kmc> probably by trying it and then puking
05:43:07 <Sgeo> So you'd probably puke it before it kills you?
05:43:17 <kmc> pretty sure, yeah
05:43:45 <kmc> it also tastes pretty bad; I think you'd have to be pretty desperate for water to get a significant amount down
05:43:51 <kmc> in which case you might die either way
05:44:42 <Sgeo> I've tasted a few drops of salt water before, it tastes good
05:44:58 <kmc> try a mouthfull
05:46:03 <Sgeo> bitter herbs also taste good
05:48:08 <Sgeo> WHY is there so much salt in the ocean?
05:48:30 <kmc> because the water evaporates and the salt stays
05:48:32 <kmc> or something
05:48:50 <kmc> water washes minerals into the ocean, then evaporates, then rains on the land to do it again
05:49:34 <doesthiswork> the saltyness is actually at about equilibrium, extra salt precipitates out
05:50:47 <kmc> lenovo fixed my laptop but also broke it in another way at the same time
05:51:10 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4786
05:55:20 <Sgeo> "Each occurrence of ask obtains the value from its own environment,
05:55:20 <Sgeo> which it finds by type"
05:55:28 <kmc> nice ligature
05:56:27 <kmc> hmm http://zem.fi
05:56:29 <kmc> works in chrome :)
05:56:40 <kmc> whoops I probably shouldn't admit to using chrome anymore
05:57:12 <kmc> fizzie: did you know ^
05:57:20 <kmc> or should i say fizzie
05:58:05 <Sgeo> Is Firefox starting to become usable again?
05:58:10 <Sgeo> I know extensions are more powerful
05:58:17 <zzo38> 2600 uses (or at least last time I looked, they did) the "fi" ligature even in fixed-pitch text. I hate that.
05:58:20 <Sgeo> And the tabs hit the top of the screen when window maximized
05:58:27 <kmc> I use FF at work
05:58:33 <kmc> i don't notice a huge difference from chrome
05:58:49 <kmc> some of FF's UI behaviors are slightly better (I would be hardpressed to say which offhand)
05:58:54 <Sgeo> Actually-effective adblock?
05:59:00 <kmc> I don't use adblock
05:59:07 <kmc> on my awful 6 year old netbook, chrome is still a lot faster
05:59:23 <Sgeo> That prevents ads loading, not hides... well, I don't either, but there's a different extension I use that would be nice if it could fully block pages
05:59:34 <zzo38> I read somewhere that they removed the <BLINK> command. They broke their promise to not remove that command!
06:04:01 <kmc> you should implement <BLINK> for Servo and submit a pull request
06:05:15 <zzo38> They are supposed to implement it in Mozilla.
06:05:17 <kmc> a new web browser rendering engine, written in Rust
06:05:34 <kmc> it's a Mozilla project and it's what I work on for my day job
06:05:35 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/servo
06:06:09 <zzo38> Well, technically they only promised they would not remove the <BLINK> command from the Mozilla engine, not from Servo.
06:06:36 <zzo38> Does the new one have a really paranoid mode?
06:06:53 <Bike> "turn off the browser"
06:11:09 <zzo38> What I would prefer to see, is the "paranoid web browser" which assumes that the user is really expert (and is a programmer, and gives the user the ability to override absolutely everything), and that the web page is malicious and trying to annoy and slow down the user's computer and put all kinds of fancy pictures and typography which aren't important.
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06:34:51 <HackEgo> danddreclist 39: shachaf nooodl
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06:42:47 <zzo38> I hope you like this game.
06:44:26 <zzo38> Finally I found a use for this astrolabe in the Dungeons&Dragons game. (The DM thought it was completely useless. But why would I purchase such a thing if it is useless?)
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07:05:47 <zzo38> Do you have a astrolabe?
07:12:06 <kmc> what do you use yours for
07:12:22 <zzo38> I don't actually have any either, but my Dungeons&Dragons character has
07:13:01 <kmc> what does your character use it for?
07:16:28 <zzo38> For things that it isn't really suited for, although it could be used to determine how much space is warped
07:17:43 <zzo38> It can be used for other things too, but I haven't use it for that yet. Still, it might be useful for such thing in future.
07:20:44 <zzo38> It described in the Dungeons&Dragons game recording.
07:21:31 <zzo38> (You may subscribe by filtering on messages starting with "`danddreclist" or by making that program notify you)
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08:36:50 <Gracenotes> it has a medium-weight frame and somewhere in between road and mountain tires
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10:50:54 <Vorpal> Sometimes ddg is just amazing. I googled.. err... ducked? for "linux file systems" and got and alphabetical list right on the result page.
10:53:12 <oerjan> @ask kmc <kmc> I need a "days until everyone stops talking about Burning Man because they are in the desert" countdown <-- what, why would they stop talking, no cell phone reception there? how quaint!
10:57:58 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> kmc: who's water bill and why did you owe him money <-- now i'm imagining this huge redneck guy driving a tank full of water to Burning Man.
11:00:09 <oerjan> `run diff r/rw{,e}lcome
11:00:11 <HackEgo> diff: r/rwlcome: No such file or directory \ diff: r/rwelcome: No such file or directory
11:00:20 <oerjan> `run diff bin/rw{,e}lcome
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11:07:39 <oerjan> `run diff bin/{wow,emoclew}
11:07:56 <oerjan> `run diff bin/{wow,rwelcome}
11:07:57 <HackEgo> 2c2 \ < welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\) \ --- \ > welcome "$@" | rainwords
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11:24:13 <Taneb> oerjan, now I'm imagining Burning Man being the Hexham of the West
11:28:08 <Taneb> I am of course utterly unfamiliar with Burning Man
11:28:18 <Taneb> And also regrettably currently unfamiliar with lunch
11:28:26 <Taneb> I can fix the latter, though
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15:04:04 <olsner> somewhat disappointed to learn that "pre-post differencing" and "run-pre matching" are just fancy terms for diffing the old and new kernel, and checking that the "old kernel" in the diff matches the running kernel
15:05:58 <olsner> I expected something to do with prefixes and postfixes (of functions?) in a novel differencing algorithm and some clever special kind of matching
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15:30:23 <Jafet> If you spent months hacking a kernel binary image, you would want fancy terms for your work too
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16:04:41 <tswett> Hey guys, I'm typing on Dvorak! Woo.
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17:02:04 <fizzie> tswett: Don't worry, it doesn't show.
17:06:14 <Sgeo> I think I just had a major impact in Active Worlds
17:07:51 <Bike> like you were hit by a car?
17:08:24 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> I think I just had a major impact in Active Worlds <Bike> like you were hit by a car?
17:08:27 <HackEgo> 1094) <Sgeo> I think I just had a major impact in Active Worlds <Bike> like you were hit by a car?
17:08:28 <Sgeo> I asked on the FB group if tourist builds would be protected, now someone in AWI is about to do so for some worlds, apparently
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18:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, ok i know this may come as no surprise but that is literally the saddest thing
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18:17:39 <Vorpal> well that was interesting... Seems like a glitchy power connector on the USB hub for the the RPi's external HDD
18:17:43 <Bike> p. sure being hit by a car would be sadder "just saying"
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18:18:53 <Vorpal> Bike, without knowing the context (due to network issues due to RPi issues), I would have to agree
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18:32:46 <Sgeo> Some of those builds are over a decade old, and now random people can't come in and destroy them
18:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> thank god you have spearheaded the initiative to preserve these cultural treasures
18:36:54 <olsner> thank god? thank Sgeo!
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19:35:45 <fizzie> Today's annoying thing: anything that puts up the GTK save/open dialog also causes the (otherwise pretty much unused) disk-with-the-Windows-installation spin up.
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20:12:25 <tswett> Ahoy. So my senior thesis is about counting the number of words of each length admitted by a context-free language.
20:13:08 <tswett> Now, this is easy enough for unambiguous languages. But for ambiguous ones, I'm pretty much lost.
20:13:56 <tswett> I don't suppose anyone here can suggest any reading?
20:13:58 <coppro> tswett: how much enumeration do you know?
20:14:43 <tswett> coppro: mm, very little. Binomial coefficients are pretty much the most advanced thing I know there.
20:15:06 <tswett> Yeah, I guess I should read about combinatorics, shouldn't I.
20:21:21 <coppro> tswett: enumeration specifically
20:21:40 <coppro> enumeration of languages is already a well-studied topic
20:21:56 <coppro> although your problem is, I believe, ultimately undecideable
20:22:31 <tswett> Not really. You can calculate it by brute force.
20:22:39 <Taneb> Just found out that SPJ is going to be seminaring at York University next February
20:22:41 <tswett> Just look through all words of each length, and see which ones are admitted and which ones aren't.
20:22:51 <tswett> "Given two combinatorial families, \mathcal{F} and \mathcal{G} with generating functions F(x) and G(x) respectively, the union of the two families (\mathcal{F} \cup \mathcal{G}) has generating function F(x) + G(x)."
20:22:57 <tswett> Should that say "two disjoint combinatorial families"?
20:23:33 <coppro> what was I thinking of, then?
20:23:48 <Taneb> AND PHILIP WADLER NEXT OCTOBER
20:23:58 <coppro> tswett: a) yes and b) stop reading wikipedia, go get a real source
20:24:13 <Taneb> Simon Peyton-Jones
20:24:15 <coppro> Taneb: are you going to be at york?
20:24:51 <coppro> it's the University of York then
20:24:55 <coppro> that's not a prerequisite
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20:25:03 <coppro> although I'd think you much too smart for our York
20:25:07 <Taneb> But yeah, the University of York
20:25:29 <Taneb> Wow, your York must really be awful if I'm too smart for it
20:26:43 <tswett> This guy says that several authors have considered the problem of enumerating the number of words of length n generated by G, and gives four examples.
20:29:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i feel like every university but mine has a functional programming great at it
20:29:50 <Phantom_Hoover> like apt guy has conor mcbride of all people lecturing him
20:31:19 <Taneb> Serves you right for going to the Midlands
20:32:05 <tswett> Pretty sure GVSU doesn't have any functional programming greats.
20:34:07 <Taneb> York has the grandfather of hlint!
20:37:16 <tswett> "The complexity of counting the number of strings of given length in context-free languages." Why, that's approximately my senior thesis topic.
20:38:37 <Taneb> Aaaah on the same day as Phil Wadler there's Neil Mitchell and Malcolm Wallace also speaking!
20:42:52 <tswett> And Terry Tao is in ##chess!
20:42:58 <tswett> Or someone pretending to be him.
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21:27:47 <Taneb> fungot, how are you doing?
21:27:47 <fungot> Taneb: lowd alarum. enter richard. nay, what hope, what stay, when this was now a coward on instinct: i shall be there
21:28:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss* wp youtube
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21:30:52 <Taneb> fizzie, is it possible to get fungot to join another channel?
21:30:53 <fungot> Taneb: enter bastard, and pucell. now roan, ile shake thy bulwarkes to the ground, as i am cleare from treason to my soueraigne. in signe whereof, please ye we may contrive this afternoon, and fnord pension beg, to keepe our great saint georges feast withall. ten thousand worse, then euer the bearing of letter did
21:31:49 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:32:17 <fizzie> Taneb: It doesn't know anything about channels, but I can tell it to ^raw JOIN #somewhere.
21:32:39 <fizzie> (It will then reply to whichever channel it gets a message from.)
21:37:13 <oerjan> <coppro> what was I thinking of, then? <-- presumably the undecidability of whether a CF grammar is unambiguous in the first place hth
21:44:45 <Taneb> Apparently the University of York has the highest duck to student ratio of any UK university
21:45:03 <Taneb> And also a lake that eats Lancaster University students
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21:48:17 <oerjan> i bet the ducks are behind the lake hth
21:48:29 <Taneb> Yes, that seems to be the theory
21:48:41 <Bike> aren't ducks usually on top of lakes.
21:49:06 <oerjan> i meant in the metaphorical sense, Bike
21:49:13 <Taneb> `addquote <oerjan> i bet the ducks are behind the lake hth <Bike> aren't ducks usually on top of lakes.
21:49:17 <HackEgo> 1095) <oerjan> i bet the ducks are behind the lake hth <Bike> aren't ducks usually on top of lakes.
21:50:45 <oerjan> Taneb: i somehow don't think that quote works without context
21:51:03 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> i bet the ducks are behind the lake hth <Bike> aren't ducks usually on top of lakes.
21:51:34 <coppro> oerjan: why do you stick hth on everything
21:51:44 <oerjan> coppro: to be helpful hth
21:52:03 <coppro> oerjan: it's not helpful hth
21:52:09 <oerjan> (above statement may contain lies hth)
22:04:31 <oerjan> well i've got a bad stomach and people hate my hths hth
22:05:14 <Taneb> http://www-student.cs.york.ac.uk/uni_history/lake.html
22:05:20 <Taneb> When asked how the lake ecology works, Professor Alister Fitter from the Biology department replied, ``Basically, it doesn't.''
22:06:10 <oerjan> Taneb: a steady input of lancaster student protein?
22:07:56 <oerjan> oh seems the lake doesn't need more nitrogen
22:08:18 <oerjan> perhaps there is too _much_ lancaster student protein then.
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22:09:48 <Taneb> "an ecosystem which leaves the lake looking green, brown and sometimes even glowing"
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22:13:33 <oerjan> Taneb: your link contains a deficit of mentions of lancaster students.
22:14:05 <Taneb> oerjan, that's because the Lancaster students are all kept hush-hush
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22:27:12 <Taneb> Taneb's Esoteric Challenge for Autumn 2013: Write an IRC bot in Inform 7
22:30:45 <zzo38> Taneb: Would it interact simply by a Z-code or Glulx program I/O being connected to the IRC, or would a variant be made which compiles into native code?
22:31:23 <Taneb> zzo38, that is open to your interpretation
22:33:12 <oerjan> elliott has convinced me to test out a new irssi script
22:33:30 <oerjan> you should be able to guess what it does
22:38:21 <quintopia> my guess: appends hth to every privmsg
22:38:49 <Taneb> Also, I should totally make seasonal Taneb's Esoteric Challenge
22:39:35 <quintopia> do it once. if anyone completes it, then do a second.
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22:53:00 <Koen_> why not write an irc client in inform 7
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22:58:48 <Bike> drivers i need installed via downloaded shell script. feeling pretty safe atm.
23:00:38 <Vorpal> Hm I have both adduser and useradd and they are completely different
23:00:44 <Vorpal> well that isn't confusing at all...
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23:03:57 <quintopia> i think useradd is the easier one?
23:05:51 <ion> “NOTE: BEFORE I STARTED WORK ON THIS PROJECT I HAD TO GET PRE-APPROVAL FROM THE SCIENCE FAIR ETHICS COMMITTEE.” http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/11629464/
23:18:22 <zzo38> Compare the various things I have written/designed with your interest and writing and games and so on by other people, see if you can find any similarity, difference, comment of it, thing you like/dislike, etc. My brother has said my games tend to have unpredictable things; see if it looks same to you or if you find some predictability.
23:29:16 <fizzie> One is kinda-sorta a frontend for the other.
23:29:35 <shachaf> kmc: how long are you around today
23:30:50 <zzo38> If you want to write a IRC client in Inform 7, you would need to modify Inform 6 to add the features you need, since Inform 7 compiles into Inform 6
23:35:39 <fizzie> Very clever: Windows spins up all disks (even those set "offline") in order to go to sleep.
23:35:53 <Bike> well you gotta sleep stringly enough
23:38:11 <fizzie> When I decided to put Linux (well, /home) on disks A and B, and Windows on C, I was sort of hoping I could have A/B more or less permanently stopped when in Windows, and correspondingly C when in Linux, but there seem to be very many occasions for waking them up.
23:52:26 <HackEgo> danddreclist 40: shachaf nooodl
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23:56:09 <Bike> `? danddreclist
23:56:10 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
23:56:18 <Bike> it's zzo's d&d games.
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23:59:56 <zzo38> The precompiled file is at printing level 5; if you download it and run it, it will ask you what level of detail you want in the printout. You also need the file "dungeonsrecording.tex" which is in the same directory, if you want to print it yourself, or if you want to use these macros for your own use, too.
00:00:15 <zzo38> Bike: Did that interests you yet?
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02:36:26 <zzo38> Objectionitive Wizardry {1W} Creature - Elemental Wizard 1/1 Protection from enchanted objects | {3W}, {T}: Put a Aura enchantment token with "Enchant creature | Enchanted creature gets +1/+1." on target creature.
02:39:23 <Sgeo> "The closing of an online virtual game may sound trivial to anyone who has never used or visited one, but to the people who spent a chunk of their formative years forging relationships inside their virtual walls, the loss can be huge."
02:39:27 <Sgeo> Someone who understands!
02:45:40 <Bike> zzo38: Mtg Person I Know says the only tokens are creatures.
02:51:42 <zzo38> Bike: Of all known cards yes, but some versions of the rules say any permanent. Still, there are many rules I would change, one is that a token can be any object.
02:53:41 <zzo38> I would do it like this: The state based effect causing tokens outside of play zone ceasing to exist would be removed, and instead, they cease to exist due to lacking an initial state. Also, copies of spells are tokens.
02:53:57 <zzo38> This seem more logical to me.
02:54:32 <zzo38> What do you think of it?
02:55:05 <Bike> basically nothing since i don't play mtg
02:55:58 <zzo38> I would also remove the state based effects about auras/equipments that are also creatures, and about losing due to run out of cards to draw; instead, the meaning of "draw a card" becomes: If there is a card in your draw pile, put the top one into your hand, otherwise you lose the game.
02:56:29 <Bike> how is that different from running out of cars to draw making you lose
02:57:45 <zzo38> Bike: It would rarely make a difference. However, there are a few rare circumstances where it might differ, for example if you have an effect that causes damage and you draw a card together, then if you have no cards to draw then you lose, since the losing due to life total happens later because it is a state based effect.
02:59:02 <coppro> zzo38: losing due to card draw is also a state based action
02:59:17 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I know. However, this is a rule I would change so that it isn't.
02:59:25 <zzo38> coppro: There are many rules I would change.
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05:35:53 <Sgeo> Why am I watching Mulan right now?
05:36:36 <coppro> I don't know. Why am I still awake
05:37:20 <Bike> who fucking knows sgeo. who fucking knows anything. i don't fucking know the series of events that led to you watching mulan. it could be anything. it is everything. the entirety of existence has led to this point, this point of you asking why you are watching mulan. are you even watching mulan? i don't know i can't know. all i have is your word, your words on a screen. a tiny portion of the fucking gigantic lightcone i live in. iti goes so ...
05:37:26 <Bike> ... damn far. so damn far sgeo. i can't even see a lightyear out my window and you expect me to know why you're watching mulan? what the fuck sgeo? waht the fuck
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05:52:17 <Jafet> It has led to this point
06:03:14 <zzo38> What kind of point?
06:04:23 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
06:04:53 <Bike> i'm referring to literally one point particularly. i cannot be more specific. it is impossible. how can i be more specific than "this thing right here"
06:05:53 <zzo38> That is true, you cannot be more specific than that, but "this thing right here" isn't meaningful unless you know which one you mean.
06:06:08 <Bike> This one. This point. Right here. The point we are at.
06:07:04 <zzo38> That isn't a single point, though.
06:07:57 <zzo38> Maybe to you it is, but not necessarily to me.
06:08:05 <Bike> we're at the same point, tha'ts impossible
06:08:55 <zzo38> Don't you know relativity and uncertainty principle and so on too? For one thing we are not at the same point, is one such thing.
06:09:18 <Bike> not that kind of point.
06:09:39 <Bike> the other kind.
06:09:39 <Bike> Anyway, Euclidean space is a myth.
06:09:51 <Bike> There's no connection here.
06:09:51 <Bike> Are you afraid?
06:10:14 <zzo38> A myth? I think Euclidean space still seems mathematically OK, although it isn't the only kind of geometry.
06:10:19 <zzo38> I am not afraid of it, though.
06:11:23 <zzo38> Are *you* agraid of it?
06:12:24 <Bike> anyway i didn't say of what
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06:45:18 <kmc> shachaf: I'm back in SF
06:45:22 <kmc> I had lunch at Ryowa, though!
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07:03:30 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MilR3Z1sASY
07:03:38 <Sgeo> I was not expecting electronic-sounding music in that movie
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10:58:14 <olsner> Bike: p. thorough answer there
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11:32:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, wrt. rdiff-backup, how do you deal with VM image files?
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11:47:21 <Jafet> I have a feeling that if not for oracle, we can replace all this crap with zfs snapshots
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11:54:58 <olsner> zfs is available outside of oracle
11:57:26 <olsner> you can even use it on linux (!)
11:58:14 <Jafet> It might even be faster than ntfs-3g!
12:04:20 <olsner> it's ... fast enough? istr that the benchmarks are unimpressive though
12:16:22 <Jafet> Huh, the LLNL, of all people, have sponsored a zfs kernel module
12:17:12 <olsner> IIRC the LLNL work was the beginning of http://zfsonlinux.org/
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13:26:34 <Vorpal> Jafet, I'm currently using LVM snapshots to get consistent file system backups
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14:39:47 <Vorpal> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
14:39:50 <Vorpal> /dev/mapper/array-old_disk2 119726308 117484008 0 100% /mnt/tmp
14:39:58 <Vorpal> That is a really strange count of free blocks
14:42:34 <Vorpal> asie, oh wait, is it related to the 1% reserved for root thingy?
14:42:41 <Vorpal> But I ran df as root so that makes no sense
14:42:44 <asie> it's related to metadata i think
14:42:51 <asie> some of the used-but-not-used space is used for metadata
14:42:53 <asie> and journaling
14:43:08 <Vorpal> Well I can create a new 1 MB file on there at least with no issues
14:43:15 <asie> sometimes it is
14:43:16 <asie> sometimes it isn't
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16:46:19 <Vorpal> Lol, I tried to use the gnome disk utility to run a performance test on my mdraid 1 array. I think there is some weird caching going on. The graph looks utterly silly: Around ~150-200 MB/s, except a peak at the end going upwards of 5 GB/s
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17:36:54 <Sgeo_> http://np.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1l19ym/greek_nazi_propaganda_in_nyc/cbur6id I hate Reddit sometimes (highly upvoted mysogeny)
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18:25:54 <Bike> `welcome dfgdfh
18:25:59 <HackEgo> dfgdfh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:26:05 <elliott> aww c'mon, you can troll better than that and we both know it. I believe in you dfgdfh!
18:26:48 <dfgdfh> kiss my ass kiss my ass
18:26:50 <dfgdfh> kiss my ass kiss my ass
18:26:51 <dfgdfh> kiss my ass kiss my ass
18:26:57 <Bike> damn steppin it up
18:27:15 <Bike> `echo kiss my ass
18:30:01 <Bike> is thisthat one person i vaguely reemmber
18:31:30 <elliott> I don't remember anybody from belarus
18:35:05 <Bike> elliott: i mean wasn't there a person who had a bunch of df nicks
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18:36:17 <elliott> Bike: they were australian or something
18:36:28 <Bike> elliott: what if they're behind seven proxies..........
18:36:40 <Bike> i am from: the mountains
18:38:03 <Bike> that's hardly belarus at all.
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18:38:48 <dfgdfh> I do not quite understand what you are saying
18:39:38 <dfgdfh> I do not know much english
18:40:13 <Bike> why did you say "kiss my ass"
18:43:57 <Koen_> sorry I had to do it
18:44:05 <Bike> you really didn't
18:44:12 <olsner> one of the bots should have a counter to tell how many nested parentheses the channel is in
18:44:27 <olsner> and maybe fizzie could graph it over time
18:44:30 <Koen_> in fact I find it highly surprising that none does
18:44:49 <Bike> running a cfg over the entirety of the logs sounds like a pain
18:46:20 <dfgdfh> 35 IRC Operators online
18:47:42 <Koen_> did someone remove the url for jsvine's survey from the topic?
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18:52:24 <oerjan> what would you do with parenthesis-based smileys
18:52:37 <olsner> hmm, maybe just count them
18:53:04 <olsner> you'd have to alternate sad/happy and left/right smileys appropriately
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19:26:44 <Gracenotes> and random bike parking, though hopefully not random bike stealing
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19:30:34 <Zuu> New RegexPL release, try it before your girlfriend! http://zuu.dk/index.php?page=regexpl
19:30:47 <Gracenotes> just to be nostalgic, I might try the commute I did back in the summer of 2011
19:31:34 <Gracenotes> then take embarcadero to fisherman's wharf, wait in line 30 minutes for In-n-Out, and cross Golden Gate bridge
19:31:47 <Gracenotes> enough to fill my SF quota for at least a few months.
19:37:04 <Gracenotes> mm, yeah, so if anyone from the general area wants to hang out later on, lemme know
19:39:47 <zzo38> I put into the computer the two spells I made up for Dungeons&Dragons game which I have selected for my character, these ones are "Kjugobe's Timer" and "Kjugobe's Notification". An idea is next add a "Kjugobe's Trigger", which probably is much higher level spell.
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20:24:27 <oerjan> mmm. the smell of quines in the morning. except it's actually evening, but you know.
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20:53:30 <Bike> i got a job ad here asking for someone good at "object-oriented languages (Java, PERL, Python, R etc.)". reasonable description yes/no
20:53:52 <elliott> I mean if you have to use the Unicode snowman to make an IRC bot with it...
20:54:06 <Bike> i don't know :(
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22:50:18 <Bike> is there some way to configure the chrome omnibox? tab to search is fucked for wikipedia for me and it's irritating
22:52:33 <Gracenotes> modifying your history doesn't seem to help
23:00:11 <Gracenotes> That was an incredibly loud noise just now
23:01:33 <Gracenotes> yeah, this guy, he knows what he's talking about. https://twitter.com/dirkdk/status/371769018983522304
23:02:18 <Bike> that seems annoying
23:03:49 <Gracenotes> oh, someone on google help forums says, "An easy fix for this is to change the keyword for your google search to something other than google
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23:24:36 <UristMcSgeo> "THIS is why crime must never be allowed to decline in New York City — LESS crime in the city means MORE crime in the quiet and pristine suburbs. Why hasn't Bloomberg been arrested for this?"
23:27:58 <Bike> too busy arresting him for everything else, one hopes
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01:53:39 <shachaf> kmc: last i saw you had a lot of screens and most of them had windows in them
01:57:52 <kmc> http://bosker.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/i-hate-the-pumping-lemma/
01:59:12 <elliott> heh, reduces it to pigeonhole principle, but dijkstra said something similar about the pigeonhole principle itself
02:00:20 <shachaf> imo reduce everything to hugz
02:02:03 <shachaf> mnoqy: adjunctions are p. cool, what's even cooler than adjunctions tho
02:04:06 <mnoqy> is this a question or an answer
02:06:12 <mnoqy> i haent bothered learning much about those yet
02:06:43 <shachaf> but i dont actually know what "cool" means
02:07:30 <kmc> what did dijkstra say
02:07:45 <shachaf> "the maximum is at least the average"
02:08:05 <shachaf> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1094.html
02:08:22 <shachaf> or http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1094.PDF if you like dijkstra's handwriting (you should)
02:09:36 <kmc> "PS. I don’t have anything against the pumping lemma for context-free languages."
02:09:46 <kmc> that one is much more complicated though :(
02:10:18 <kmc> i think the ratio of complexity of idea to complexity of formal statement is worse there
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03:23:46 <zzo38> In what context is that?
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03:25:14 <doesthiswork> the german soccer lotto, he introduces a variable 'i' to index some arrays
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03:28:41 <kmc> oh it's along with underlined A for "for all" and underlined E for "there exists"
03:28:44 <kmc> so I guess it's a quantifier
03:29:38 <kmc> it looks like (N x : φ(x)) is meant to mean "the number of x such that φ(x) holds"
03:30:16 <shachaf> Hmm, that's an unusual binder/quantifier.
03:31:02 <kmc> and also that (Q x : φ : ψ) is meant to be sugar for (Q x: (φ ∧ ψ))
03:31:18 <kmc> sorry to use almost identical looking greek letters but it's Tradition
03:31:22 <Bike> elliott: did djikstra reduce the pigeonhole principle to the pumping lemma
03:32:04 <shachaf> kmc: I think the two colons are special, since even the forall has two.
03:32:18 <Bike> i love "reduce" since even the formal definitions are pretty... two-way
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04:13:12 <zzo38> I think the HTML <xmp> command should be added in MediaWiki (although it doesn't have to implement it as emitting a <xmp>)
04:15:42 <kmc> while you were tripping you were transported to a universe where \phi and \varphi are interchanged
04:15:59 <elliott> at least it's not \epsilon and \varepsilon
04:17:12 <kmc> apparently there's such a thing as "Latin uppercase epsilon" (Ɛ) which is not to be confused with Greek uppercase epsilon (Ε)
04:17:16 <kmc> wtf people
04:17:48 <kmc> stop inventing bogus letters
04:17:54 <kmc> or at least go all out and make something that looks like klingon
04:18:19 <kmc> ge'ez people
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04:46:52 <UristMcSgeo> xmp is the sort of thing that sounds good until you realize someone will dumbly try to use it for security
04:47:35 <zzo38> UristMcSgeo: But that doesn't make it no good; it only makes it no good to use it for security.
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12:11:19 <oerjan> glogbackup: WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE
12:17:07 <elliott> <glogbackup> sorry people, I... I just took a wrong turn and... got lost and... wandered in...
12:17:17 <elliott> <glogbackup> I'll... show myself out...
12:17:30 * elliott idly considers kicking it for yuks
12:17:35 <Deewiant> Kick glogbot to validate the backup's presence
12:17:45 <oerjan> but now you've made me feel sad for it :(
12:18:06 <elliott> Deewiant: I might do that *if* Gregor had ever merged glogbackup's logs in, ever
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12:23:44 <oerjan> can't argue with that.
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12:41:24 <Roujo> cat greeting >> #esoteric
12:42:50 <Jafet> I assume that would be a meow.
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13:17:24 <Roujo> Bon mating, böily ^^
13:18:00 <boily> nice placement of the infamous trë́ma.
13:20:28 <boily> oh, a ladybug on my desk.
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13:25:20 <oerjan> it's not a ladybug, it's a fallen-off accent
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13:29:53 <oerjan> <oerjan> it's not a ladybug, it's a fallen-off accent
13:30:20 <oerjan> elliott: i found a flaw in your script
13:31:59 <boily> oerjan: you brightenèd my morning.
13:32:16 <Roujo> How do you... accents do not work that way
13:32:20 <boily> Roujo: perfectly legit use of the è.
13:32:29 <boily> it's used in poetry for scansion.
13:32:40 <Roujo> I wouldn't say "perfectly legit" =P
13:32:46 <Roujo> Grévisse would object, really
13:33:43 <boily> I don't care about grévisse. had you mentioned a real grammar source, like bécherelle.
13:33:54 <elliott> oerjan: erm can you give me a copy of the script so I can fix it :P
13:35:24 <oerjan> http://sprunge.us/EAPE
13:36:34 <elliott> hmm, do you ever do mid-line hths? those could be problematic as well
13:37:03 <oerjan> not that i can recall, unless i'm actually talking about the concept
13:37:12 <elliott> yes, I didn't want to restrict admitting you have a problem
13:37:15 <boily> Roujo: looks like my bro is in Michigan this morning.
13:37:25 <elliott> if ($text =~ s/(^|[,;.?!]?\s+)(hth|twn?h|tdn?h)[,;.?!]*\s*$//ig) {
13:37:47 <elliott> and we all support you in this difficult time.
13:38:03 <Roujo> boily: Now that's just nice =P
13:38:43 <boily> Roujo: oh, no. it was just an atrocious pun based on my previous e-mail.
13:39:03 <Roujo> boily: Now that's just nice =P
13:40:09 * boily has a sudden urge to smack Roujo, but we're Monday morning and I have a chocolate muffin from Costco.
13:40:19 <Roujo> boily: Now that's just nice =P
13:41:14 <oerjan> btw editing it revealed that your script was full of ^M's
13:43:15 <Koen_> so I tried picking up vim
13:43:44 <elliott> oerjan: sprunge's fault, probably
13:43:47 <elliott> or rather HTTP's fault or whatever
13:44:23 <boily> Koen_: once you start thinking of vim as a roguelike, everything else flows together.
13:45:05 <Koen_> cause right now I'm convinced I've gone far enough in the tutorial to keep using emacs
13:45:40 <Koen_> this whole "vim is a text editor but please don't use the text editing mode too much" philosophy is weird
13:46:11 <elliott> oerjan: whoa, I just realised I can't threaten you with wiki adminship any more
13:46:22 <oerjan> elliott: horrible isn't it
13:46:30 <boily> Koen_: that's completely false. it's a text editor first, but it happens you have a separate mode for movemements and stuff.
13:46:54 <boily> btw, kmc gave his voice to glogbackup?
13:47:22 <Koen_> boily: apparently when I'm in insert mode I can only delete what I've just written; all that was already there I CAN'T TOUCH
13:47:36 <oerjan> Koen_: oh there's an option for that
13:47:48 <boily> Koen_: there's an option for that.
13:47:53 <Koen_> oerjan: is that option called "any other text editor"?
13:48:22 <boily> Koen_: I'll act on a sudden spur of charity, and say that you have to add «set nocompatible» in your ~/.vimrc.
13:48:40 <Koen_> I don't have a .vimrc yet
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13:49:23 <boily> Koen_: the .vimrc is only second behind fvwm config files when you sort them by the amount of time you loose tweaking them.
13:49:32 <oerjan> lots of the obvious small improvements are set by default in the windows install, but i vaguely recall setting such an option way back on linux.
13:49:37 <elliott> tip: when someone wants to complain, advice helps neither of you.
13:49:40 <boily> (althought you can't rush a good .screenrc, imho)
13:49:56 <Koen_> still, at the school most people use vim, and they were not far from convincing me it was better than emacs
13:49:58 <boily> oerjan: the default windows install is a little bit weird.
13:50:09 <Koen_> but this whole "insert mode" thing is really really ridiculous
13:50:20 <Koen_> half the time they type looking at the keyboard
13:50:29 <Koen_> and nothing happens because they forgot to type i first or something
13:50:30 <oerjan> boily: i _have_ changed a few options in that too, but not this one. anyhow my nvg .vimrc contains set backspace=indent,eol,start whichwrap+=<,>,[,]
13:50:39 <elliott> ...so, save your time, because the complaints will continue regardless.
13:50:51 <Koen_> elliott: I'm actually open-minded!
13:51:06 <elliott> but you've already decided it's really really ridiculous.
13:51:13 <oerjan> not sure what the whichwrap part does
13:51:17 <boily> elliott: when complaining, don't meta-complain, ere your enter an infinite loop of Ultimate Mutual Kvetching.
13:51:31 <oerjan> oh wait those are separate options
13:51:41 <boily> oerjan: no idea here neither. it's there, it's feng shui, it must be kept.
13:51:42 <elliott> I certainly don't look at my keyboard when using vim, though I have no strong attachment to it as an editor
13:51:56 <Koen_> elliott: well it's a text editor but by default you are not in text editing mode
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13:53:26 <boily> Bike: what is your opinion on insertion?
13:53:36 <Bike> context-dependent
13:53:43 <elliott> Koen_: it's called insert mode.
13:53:58 <Koen_> so it's not even a text editing more
13:54:12 <elliott> insertion is not even editing. normal mode has more tools to actually edit existing text
13:54:13 <oerjan> boily: oh it's to fix a similar annoyingness of the <>[] commands i guess
13:54:29 <Koen_> but in normal mode you can't really type text
13:54:37 <Koen_> which is what I wanna do when I'm using a text editor
13:54:52 <Bike> oh, are you arguing about vim
13:55:04 <boily> oerjan: neat. didn't know about wrapping <>. I guess I prefer the “get stuck at the line beginning” variant, as I usually < and > very aggressively.
13:55:07 <oerjan> boily: um wait it's not the commands but the arrow keys
13:55:17 <oerjan> they're just encoded that way in the option
13:55:44 <oerjan> boily: by default left and right arrow don't wrap at eol
13:55:51 <Koen_> I like all those fancy instructions to delete one word or one line or 13 characters but it seems wrong that you're not allowed to do what you usually do in a text editor
13:55:59 <boily> oerjan: as in, the physical keys?
13:57:27 <elliott> thankfully, other editors (insertors?) exist
13:57:43 <Koen_> elliott: and frankly I think if I spent enough time coming up with a satisfying .vimrc I'd probably be more efficient using vim than emacs but still some things in it seem so ridiculous to me
13:59:08 <oerjan> Koen_: there is a vim mode to keep you mostly in insert mode. then you have to add a prefix for each normal mode command though iirc
13:59:51 <boily> Koen_: when in insert mode, you can Alt-* to get the normal mode command.
14:00:34 <oerjan> i vaguely thought it was Ctrl-O
14:01:25 <boily> well, Ctrl-O is cleaner, but it just happens that in a terminal to Alt- something is the same as Escape, then the something.
14:02:44 <oerjan> oh. that may not even be the case in windows.
14:03:04 <boily> Koen_: you're using which OS?
14:03:24 <Koen_> snow leopard I reckon
14:03:43 <oerjan> boily: the thing is Ctrl-O automatically returns you to insert mode after the command
14:05:14 <boily> Koen_: hm. I never vimmed on a mac. how does it feel?
14:05:38 <Koen_> I may not be very objective
14:05:50 <boily> oerjan: Ctrl-O is the official “temporarily jump back to normality”. Alt- is the ugly aquatic bird.
14:06:10 <boily> Koen_: you can not be objective about a text editor. it goes with the territory.
14:06:37 <oerjan> boily: but if Alt-* is equivalent to Esc * then it _wouldn't_ be temporary.
14:08:30 <boily> I think the lesson to be extracted from that is that aquatic birds aren't temporary, but the objectivity of Ctrl-O is absolute.
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14:13:19 <Roujo> boily: I support and do so
14:13:55 <elliott> @tell oerjan I frown upon this loophole
14:14:08 <Bike> i join in frowning
14:14:18 <boily> elliott: what you frowning at?
14:15:11 <boily> @tell oerjan why are you being frowned at?
14:15:58 <Bike> "hth" in the /quit
14:18:41 -!- ^v has changed nick to dan200.
14:20:04 <boily> did we already relcome ggherdov?
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15:18:10 <HackEgo> olist (914): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
15:20:57 <HackEgo> olist (100): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
15:21:10 <Roujo> I have no idea what this is
15:21:11 <Bike> wow roujo why are you ruining the sanctity of the list system.
15:21:17 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.
15:22:03 <Roujo> Sorry, I didn't think it'd break something
15:22:17 <Bike> the only think you've broken is our hearts.
15:22:36 <shachaf> Bike: hey i was typing that :'(
15:33:16 <Bike> how is haskell's i/o organized? like, i assume you can have parsec or whatever deal about the same with a file or with just a string?
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15:33:48 <Bike> would you just pass a lazy string or is there something else, is what i'm asking, i guess
15:34:37 <elliott> it is less nice than you are expecting
15:34:56 <Bike> i'm not really expecting anything. i/o fucking sucks
15:35:10 <elliott> well, you made an assumption
15:35:15 <elliott> it's sort of true but not in any nice way you might be hoping
15:35:25 <Bike> is my assumption that parsec works on both wrong?
15:35:33 <Bike> works on both without some horrible nastiness, anyway
15:36:02 <Bike> just wondering if there's something like CL (oh no) streams or scheme ports or whatever
15:36:33 <elliott> there's about five competing alternatives to fill that need
15:36:43 <elliott> parsec supports none of them but it's flexible enough to feed incrementally from a file with a bit of work, I think.
15:37:04 <Bike> are there seven packages putting the five alternatives into unifying monads
15:39:05 <Bike> oh and as long as i'm mentioning parsec, how does the whole language derivative thing work? what multiplication and addition operations do you use to show leibniz's identity? bla bla
15:39:20 <Bike> hey elliott fuck u
15:40:10 <Bike> i was thinking of the time i asked about error handling and kmc or somebody pointed out a couple different things that tried to genericize error handling
15:40:24 <Bike> believe there's a "clevr quote" on this subject
15:41:47 <Bike> MonadError, that was it
15:47:44 <lambdabot> jjuggle says: I was riding around town and this cop on patrol on a bike rode up next to me and said, "There's always a show off." I offered to teach him to ride and help set up a unicycle patrol
15:55:02 <ggherdov> yes boily I was warmly wellcame a few weeks ago. Thank you!
16:13:18 <Roujo> Ah, but were you relcame?
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17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/ANARCHO_CAPITALISM: http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1kwy3p/how_would_anarchocapitalism_work_for_a_lowclass/cbtj774
17:20:10 -!- conehead has joined.
17:20:10 <boily> zzo38: how do you feel about insertion?
17:20:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (i know it's not /r/bitcoin but let's face it they're basically the same)
17:20:57 <boily> not enough working neurons today to parse that comment.
17:21:17 -!- augur has joined.
17:21:27 <Bike> haha there's an r/anarcho_capitalism
17:21:44 <zzo38> boily: Insert what?
17:22:17 <Bike> oh, i saw this one before
17:22:30 <boily> zzo38: Koen_'s misadventures with vim on OS X.
17:22:49 <Koen_> the problem's not os x
17:23:06 <Bike> «I don't mean to offend anyone or be "that person" to say anarcho-capitalism is only for rich, white people,»
17:23:19 <Bike> holy fuck, is this unironic bootstrap
17:23:27 <Bike> holly fuck. fucking carnegie. holy fuck
17:23:41 <Bike> they're completely serious. holy shit. holy what the fuck phantom
17:23:52 <Koen_> that's a cool justification
17:24:05 <Koen_> like "I'm usually not violent but here's my fist in your face"
17:24:17 <Bike> the banner is also good
17:24:25 <Bike> perfect depiction of how anarcho capitalists imagine themselves
17:24:27 <Bike> fucking bowtie
17:24:32 <Phantom_Hoover> '"Government regulation makes sure the proles are fed."Actually, it ensures their slavery to statism.'
17:25:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i have however developed a loathing for the term 'govt'
17:26:08 <Bike> may i suggest not going through this thread
17:26:36 <Bike> i mean, for your own safety, you understand
17:26:56 <Bike> (i am the statist oppressor)
17:27:11 <coppro> I'm totally the statist oppressor
17:27:17 <Bike> no it's me fucker
17:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i will instead try and sift out garth marenghi's opinions on government
17:27:30 <Bike> i am the statiest!!
17:27:46 <boily> let Phantom_Hoover read the thread, I say. the end result will be entertaining :D
17:28:00 <Bike> that sounds anarcho-capitalist. i must now oppress you.
17:28:05 <Bike> elliott: i command that you devoice boily.
17:28:38 <Bike> are you opposing the rule of law phantom
17:29:23 <elliott> oh wow that subreddit's logo
17:29:38 <Bike> to make me laugh? maybe
17:29:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
17:29:57 -!- elliott has kicked Phantom_Hoover "HTH", as they say.
17:29:59 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
17:30:14 <Bike> smash the nonstate
17:30:18 <elliott> nobody ever tell me I don't oppress them enough.
17:30:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:30:22 * boily hides himself behind Roujo. "I didn't do nothing!"
17:30:35 <elliott> the karmic balance isn't right!!
17:30:41 <metasepia> Your divination: "Brightness Hiding" to "Humbling"
17:30:58 <boily> there. whatever that means.
17:31:00 <Bike> mmhm, that backs up the karmic balance description
17:31:07 <Bike> good job elliott. now devoice boily
17:31:07 <metasepia> Your divination: "Pervading" to "Corrupting"
17:32:19 <boily> does map-o-spread still exist? it's been a while since I had it on my breakfast toasts...
17:32:39 <metasepia> Your divination: "Arguing" to "Treading"
17:32:49 <metasepia> Your divination: "Converting the Maiden" to "Open"
17:33:00 <kmc> converting vegetarians, minding the gap since 1996
17:33:17 <Bike> you're going to wear out the hexagrams, peeps! watch it
17:34:44 <boily> transitions. we can still abuse metasepia for a while.
17:36:55 <boily> kmc: maidens are vegetarians?
17:37:02 <kmc> some of them
17:38:49 <Roujo> Oh, so the combinations never come back?
17:39:14 <Bike> i ching mother fucker
17:39:34 <boily> Roujo: they do, but Bike is an anarcho-suppressor today.
17:39:39 <boily> Bike: check your privileges!
17:39:53 <metasepia> Your divination: "Conjoining" to "Skinning"
17:39:57 <Roujo> fsck /dev/privileges
17:39:59 <mnoqy> sounds about right
17:40:02 <Bike> my privileges are telling me to oppress roujo
17:40:14 <Bike> thx privileges
17:41:11 <boily> I was originally planning to have an sqlite DB to back the yi thingy, in order to have complete descriptions and stuff and relations and everything and ascii art...
17:41:35 <boily> I guess it's going to get lumped in the Great Cosmic Todo List of my Increasingly Vaporiferous Second Bot Iteration.
17:41:45 <metasepia> dag definition: a hanging end or shred.
17:42:29 <boily> ça a bin d'l'air que c'est ça qui est ça, なるほど, and all that sort of thing.
17:43:01 <Roujo> boily: Emily has been completely refactors three to four times already
17:43:05 <Roujo> It's good for her health =P
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17:44:19 <boily> Roujo: I'll give a go at cuttlefishing that bot during the fête du travail. probably.
17:44:29 <boily> (that or I'll be shuffling mahjon tiles)
17:45:46 <Roujo> I'll be at a wedding, so good luck ^^
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17:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "Oh what the government?" "Yes! I'm not gonna call them that, because I don't believe they govern."
17:53:12 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: ow. ooooooooow. please stop. the few remaining floating solid mushy bits in my cranium are raising riots to overthrow my body away and replace it with a benevolent dictator that will provide them with a lifelong sugar supply.
17:53:57 <boily> I call dibs on calling poe's law on that one.
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17:58:01 <kmc> did I mention http://archive.ics.uci.edu/ml/datasets/Mushroom
17:58:16 <boily> oh, uci has a mushroom set!
17:58:24 <Bike> that's a lot of mushrooms.
17:59:30 <kmc> only Agaricus and Lepiota though
17:59:40 <kmc> lots of observations but only 23 species
18:00:03 <kmc> and "No Lepiota species is recommended as edible"
18:00:10 <Bike> good observation
18:00:16 <kmc> (edibility being what the data set is meant to classify)
18:00:44 <kmc> maybe they are easily confused with Agaricus though
18:02:34 <kmc> same family and it looks like they used to be considered the same genus
18:02:39 <kmc> that happens a lot with mushrooms
18:02:55 <kmc> type species confusion, moving species between genera
18:03:12 <kmc> Psilocybe cubensis used to be Stropharia cubensis
18:04:25 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:04:42 <kmc> Stropharia rugosoannulata is pretty and delicious
18:04:49 -!- Tod-Autojoined has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:04:54 <kmc> we found them growing on MIT's campus at one point
18:07:47 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
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18:10:35 <kmc> fixed a bug with "give up and use memcpy"
18:10:51 <boily> I should get to mushroom hunting. it sounds fun.
18:10:57 <Bike> good song, too
18:11:13 <boily> “oh baby... give up and use memcpy ♪”
18:11:25 <Bike> i meant mushroom hunting!!
18:11:44 <kmc> I don't know that one
18:11:53 <boily> “oh baby... give up and use mushroom hunting ♪”
18:12:04 <Bike> it's from an anime. i'm a weeaboo :(
18:12:11 <kmc> Bike: I think the pacific northwest is good for mushroom hunting
18:12:29 <Bike> www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmIsNpDimQ0
18:12:33 <kmc> in SF the mushrooms season starts in september
18:12:37 <Bike> kmc: yeah, but i live in the dry part now >______>
18:12:45 <kmc> that's true
18:12:53 <boily> there's dry pacific northwest?
18:13:00 <kmc> douglass: do you have any advice about mushroom hunting in eastern Washington state?
18:13:03 <Bike> yeah, east of the cascades it's near-desert.
18:13:28 <Bike> nobody cares about east of the cascades. the population density drops in much the same way the density drops from land to the ocean
18:13:52 <boily> Bike: so you live in a desert in the ocean, with mushrooms?
18:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think i even knew the cascades were a thing until recently
18:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought the only mountain ranges in the mainland us were like the rockies and the appalachians
18:15:49 <Bike> they're kind of overshadowed by the rockies, almost literally
18:15:52 <boily> Roujo: http://youtu.be/-ecg5_Y08KI
18:16:39 <Bike> i mean have you seen the rockies. they're /really/ tall
18:16:53 <Bike> cascades are part of the ring of fire, though, which is somewhat more notable
18:17:04 <boily> our rockies are better than your rockies south of the border.
18:17:13 <Bike> everyone in this state has a story about being covered in ash
18:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> aren't the rockies continuous with like the grampians and the mountains in norway
18:18:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, oooh, I heard that!
18:19:06 <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range
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18:19:27 <Bike> ok good that was confusing
18:19:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Cordillera Oh. Huh. That's interesting
18:19:50 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: so, again, what.
18:20:27 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range
18:20:31 <HackEgo> 1095) <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range
18:20:48 <Bike> oh, right, continents move sometimes
18:21:02 <Bike> but seriously the "rockies" go down to antarctica. damn yo
18:21:20 <boily> am I allowed to forward the quote list to a friend to help him understand the extent of what #esöteric is, or must this valuable knowledge be kept hidden?
18:21:26 <Bike> elliott: i like how my quotes get across that i am an idiot
18:21:30 <mnoqy> antarctica is probably rocky yes
18:21:41 <Bike> boily: don't tell anyone, but i've done it...........
18:21:43 <mnoqy> interested re: this idiot business
18:21:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18054
18:21:51 <Bike> wow ur mean mnoqy
18:21:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25683
18:22:18 <boily> uhm. how come the only boily quote that comes out is that one?
18:22:26 <HackEgo> 925) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world \ 926) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it \ 935) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday. \ 938) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my
18:22:39 <boily> I mean. I got an impressive record just there ↑
18:22:59 <boily> (fsvo impressive. with the current economy collapse, that's what you get.)
18:23:12 <Bike> i still laugh at elliott's hawaii quote
18:23:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14992
18:24:12 <boily> Bike: I like the lens one. perfectly coherent.
18:24:18 <HackEgo> 901) <elliott> okay so <elliott> i went to wikimapia per Bike <elliott> and found a tiny little nowhere that looked like it might be it <elliott> zoomed in <elliott> thought aw yeah this looks remote maybe it's it <elliott> turns out it's hawaii <elliott> i am not very good at this
18:24:49 <Bike> boily: slightly worried that i have more than one lens quote
18:25:30 <boily> Bike: oh hm. you should use lenses to gather them, then.
18:26:25 <boily> Bike: there, some weeabeats to distract you: http://youtu.be/w6DUeJHYTRU
18:26:37 <Bike> i have no ears rn, lent them out
18:26:39 <Bike> thx anyway tho
18:27:54 <boily> why do you always invoke registered nurses...
18:27:56 -!- augur has joined.
18:28:13 <Bike> nurses do a lot of good work ,man.
18:31:56 <HackEgo> 728) <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
18:32:08 <Taneb> `quote profanity spe
18:32:09 <HackEgo> 729) <Taneb> profanity specialities
18:32:19 <HackEgo> 730) <Taneb> thank you verse I'm not quite innocent
18:32:24 <mnoqy> is this from when you tried speech recognition
18:32:25 <Taneb> That was a fun half hour
18:32:32 <fungot> boily: sir john. neighbour banks, into brian's walk, the mad keeper. here comes brabantio and the valiant moor.
18:32:39 <mnoqy> what a good technology
18:33:18 <HackEgo> 719) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
18:33:52 <boily> is identity commutative?
18:35:36 <boily> mnoqy: thanks. I was worried for a moment there.
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18:40:44 <kmc> Taneb: those are fun quotes
18:40:56 <kmc> do you remember what you said?
18:41:18 <Taneb> kmc, apart from "Hang on, I have a bright idea", no
18:41:39 <Taneb> Also, I've just realised I pronounce xor the same as one of the Latin words for wife
18:41:55 <kmc> which word?
18:42:56 <Taneb> Which would, I guess, make sense
18:45:01 <Taneb> I have a stupid awful speech thingy
18:45:20 <Taneb> Where speech thingy is somewhere between accent and voice
18:47:04 <Taneb> (I begin both "xor" and "uxor" with kind of a very short oo sound)
18:47:22 <Fiora> I say "zor" I think
18:48:02 <kmc> i say either "zor" or "eks or" depending
18:48:07 <nooodl> uxor is pronounced "ook-sor" though, not "uck-sor"
18:48:23 <nooodl> oh it is a short oo sound? wow that's a weird way to say xor
18:48:27 <kmc> obviously one should say "add in the finite field of size 2"
18:48:43 <Taneb> Very back of the throat vowel sound, too
18:49:06 <mnoqy> i try to avoid situations in which i'd have to say xor
18:49:52 <kmc> life goals
18:49:58 <kmc> just say no to xor
18:51:15 <nooodl> i guess hypothetically i'd just say ksor
18:51:26 <nooodl> (what the heck is english's problem with initial /ks/)
18:52:18 <Jafet> Pronounce xor, instead of "xor" or "xor", "xor" xor "xor".
18:52:41 <mnoqy> im fine with ~ksor~ and ~zor~ and i could probably say either if i'm not paying attention to how i pronounce things
18:52:54 <mnoqy> under such circumstances i can also see myself saying "exclusive or" though
18:53:26 <zzo38> Someone once said you have to hit you and "or", to make "xor"
18:53:34 <zzo38> But that isn't a real speech
18:53:35 <Koen_> you can say ksor or you can say zor but you can't say both
18:57:55 <nooodl> also: i'd probably say "ksnor"
19:01:11 <Koen_> I've never understood that one
19:01:19 <Koen_> "xnor" is the same as "not xor" right?
19:01:23 <Koen_> so that should be nxor
19:01:44 <zzo38> Koen_: Yes I agree I have called it NXOR instead of XNOR usually
19:01:46 <Koen_> "exclusive nor" doesn't make that much sense does it?
19:02:18 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:03:43 <boily> during Bike's absence, I autoproclaim myself to be the appointed oppressor.
19:04:07 <boily> I arbitrarily declare zzo38 to be oppressed.
19:04:38 <kmc> i call it "equals"
19:05:07 <zzo38> Why do you arbitrarily declare zzo38 to be oppressed.
19:05:25 <Koen_> I'm sure that was arbitrary, nothing personnal
19:06:11 <boily> I guess I could have thrown some dice to randomly have an oppressed designated victim, but then it'd have implied a very complex chorded keypress to get to the tilde.
19:06:16 -!- Bike has joined.
19:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> is declaring someone to be oppressed a form of oppression
19:06:37 <boily> Bike: go away. I like my power just fine.
19:06:58 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: yup! the easiest form you can imbue yourself with!
19:07:57 <zzo38> Actually I just wonder why, is all.
19:08:41 <boily> there's no why. in fact, as a dictator, I shouldn't have to provide any why.
19:09:24 <boily> and if you question my decision, I'll unleash a cold, wet and slimy starfish upon you.
19:10:41 <zzo38> I don't care; I think we should need to know why!
19:11:11 * boily hones a starfish...
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19:42:30 <lambdabot> elliott said 5h 28m 34s ago: I frown upon this loophole
19:42:30 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 27m 18s ago: why are you being frowned at?
19:43:17 <oerjan> boily: he doesn't like me using the quit message to get around the script preventing me from saying
19:43:59 <boily> there's... what? a script from unhthing you?
19:44:05 <boily> I like that concept.
19:44:56 <oerjan> it's not unprecedented, Gregor ha[ds] a script to stop him saying :P
19:45:11 <Gregor> I don't use that smiley anymore.
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19:55:38 <boily> sacje: today's Question: how do you feel about insertino?
19:57:16 <sacje> i believe it is a complicated manner and i will consider all the options before arriving at a conclusion
20:00:54 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:01:12 <ais523> hey, anyone here know a file on Linux that can be opened for read successfully, but which cannot be successfully read from?
20:01:13 <boily> sacje: tbh it's a matter of to vim or not to vim.
20:01:21 <boily> ais523: /dev/zero?
20:01:31 <ais523> nah, you can read from that successfully
20:01:33 <ais523> you get a bunch of zeros
20:01:54 <kmc> what about /dev/full
20:02:01 <ais523> hmm… the man page suggests that a tty may work in a process that ignores SIGTTIN
20:02:06 <ais523> kmc: I think that returns EOF
20:02:13 <kmc> oh mine returns zeroes
20:02:18 <metasepia> On POSIX-compliant platforms, SIGTTIN is the signal sent to a process when it attempts to read from the tty while in the background.
20:02:25 <kmc> I thought there was supposed to be /dev/empty but I don't have one
20:02:33 <boily> SIGTTIN sounds right, but complex.
20:02:34 <ais523> it's easy enough to create
20:02:48 <boily> what about mknodding it?
20:03:35 <olsner> doesn't /dev/null do that?
20:03:44 <ais523> yeah, /dev/null is empty on read
20:04:39 <olsner> did you want something that actually fails on read rather than behave as an empty file?
20:05:09 <ais523> olsner: yeah, I want the read to physically error out
20:05:26 <boily> is it possible to emulate a disk IO error?
20:05:43 <olsner> if you want that file as stdin maybe <&- or something could work?
20:05:45 <boily> I think there was a research fake filesystem that you fused for that kind of fuzzing purpose.
20:05:47 <ais523> this came out out of a discussion about whether "return NULL;" is a valid implementation of gets()
20:05:51 <ais523> boily: web of lies could do it
20:06:08 <ais523> but I'm not mentally up to screwing with that codebase yet
20:06:21 <boily> zzo38: woooooooooah... that is some nifty discovery.
20:06:27 <kmc> you could just write a kernel module
20:06:34 <ais523> boily: basically it's a debugger-like system that sandboxes a program, also can cause arbitrary system calls it makes to return arbitrary return values
20:06:50 <ais523> it's not very hard to make it output -EIO to any attempt to call read(), for instance
20:07:05 <ais523> rather harder to make it return -EIO only on specific read attempts, though
20:08:48 <HackEgo> cat: -: Bad file descriptor \ cat: closing standard input: Bad file descriptor
20:09:26 <ais523> hmm… the first error there is perfectly reasonable
20:09:28 <ais523> the second, however, isn't
20:10:06 <boily> cat: -: Mauvais descripteur de fichier
20:10:08 <boily> cat: fermeture de l'entrée standard: Mauvais descripteur de fichier
20:10:27 <olsner> I think it's trying to read from (and then close) fd 0 but there's no file open for that file descriptor (bash closed it)
20:10:57 <ais523> but if you try to read from a file descriptor and discover it doesn't exist
20:11:02 <ais523> trying to follow up by closing it is a bug
20:11:16 <ais523> boily: I actually have a French locale installed specifically for the purpose of making sure I don't make assumptions about locale when parsing error output from programs
20:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: I didn't consider that, although it is a good idea. However another idea might be for your program to switch to a default locale while running in order to avoid these problem.
20:12:25 <boily> my $LANG is set to fr_CA.UTF-8 because that's the way I like it, and because our workplace mandates having everythin in french.
20:12:50 <ais523> zzo38: that is my solution, but I need a second locale installed to test that that solution works
20:13:08 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, OK, that makes sense.
20:13:38 <ais523> the other reason I have it installed is so that I can check for encoding problems in parsing locale-specific error messages, when the user requests that
20:14:32 <kmc> Mauvais descripteur de fichier
20:15:12 <HackEgo> cat: -: Bad file descriptor \ cat: -: Bad file descriptor \ cat: closing standard input: Bad file descriptor
20:15:16 <Bike> boily: you in quebec or new brunswick or what, out of curiosity
20:15:39 <ais523> OK, I'm guessing that cat attempts to close stdin no matter what
20:15:47 <ais523> `run cat /etc/passwd <&-
20:15:48 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
20:16:00 <ais523> `run cat - /etc/passwd - <&-
20:16:01 <HackEgo> cat: -: Bad file descriptor \ cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory \ cat: -: Bad file descriptor \ cat: closing standard input: Bad file descriptor
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20:16:28 <olsner> it may or may not close stdin? is this a good thing to do
20:16:45 <Koen_> why have I never tried closing stdin
20:16:56 <ais523> Koen_: because it's normally pointless
20:16:56 <olsner> why doesn't each - get its own close attempt?
20:17:04 <ais523> it's quite reasonable when daemonizing, though
20:17:16 <Koen_> ais523: probably, but it sounds like something I'd need to *test*
20:17:28 <ais523> closing stderr is more fun
20:17:37 <ais523> `run cat /etc/passwd 2>&-
20:17:41 <Koen_> but recently there's a lot of stuff I don't think about testing
20:17:50 <ais523> because you can't tell whether the command malfunctions or not
20:17:50 <Koen_> I used to wanna test everything
20:18:04 <ais523> except via strace or the like
20:19:20 <ais523> $ strace -e trace=write -o /tmp/t cat /nonexistent 2>&-
20:19:47 <ais523> apparently, it keeps trying to write error messages even though the kernel's spamming -EBADF at it
20:20:24 <ais523> hmm… if stdout is closed, do freshly opened files get the number 2 or 3?
20:21:49 <boily> Bike: in Montréal.
20:22:16 <olsner> `run ls -l /proc/self/fd <&-
20:22:18 <HackEgo> total 0 \ lr-x------ 1 5000 928466 64 Aug 26 20:22 0 -> /proc/287/fd \ l-wx------ 1 5000 928466 64 Aug 26 20:22 1 -> pipe:[251] \ l-wx------ 1 5000 928466 64 Aug 26 20:22 2 -> /tty1 \ lr-x------ 1 5000 928466 64 Aug 26 20:22 3 -> /console \ l-wx------ 1 5000 928466 64 Aug 26 20:22 4 -> /console \ lr-x------ 1 5000 928466 64 Aug 26 20:22 5 -> /tty1
20:23:35 <HackEgo> 926) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it
20:23:49 <ais523> it appears to have opened a directory onto fd 0
20:24:06 <ais523> ooh, this has /lots/ of scope for causing programs to malfunction in bizarre ways
20:24:49 <boily> oerjan: where do I trail? what have a incongruously spaced?
20:25:21 <Roujo> boily: You're trailed your trail in space
20:25:38 <oerjan> boily: `quote boily gives just that quote when there's a space after the y
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20:26:08 <oerjan> this is a frequent result of tab completing nicks, i've fixed it in several other commands
20:26:16 <boily> oerjan: s/\ba\b/I/
20:26:35 <boily> oerjan: ooooooh...
20:26:35 <HackEgo> 84) <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack. \ 89) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists \ 298) <zzo38> <elliott>
20:26:56 <ais523> olsner: what are you trying to match there?
20:27:00 <boily> ais523: my bot works just fine.
20:27:09 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
20:27:11 <HackEgo> 758) <monqy> ophanim: omee~ \ 923) <Sgeo> I feel like (A.~[:i.[:!#) is verbose \ 926) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it
20:27:12 <ais523> trailing spaces are hard to see
20:27:12 <olsner> ais523: trailing spaces yes
20:27:27 <boily> ais523: you don't say.
20:27:58 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> ophanim: omee~
20:28:11 <ais523> yeah, that quote needed deleting
20:28:13 <boily> who was ophanim? why did mnoqy omee~ him/her/it/[EXPUNGED]?
20:31:57 <Koen_> ais523: so as it turns out, writing the .c file to close stdin with emacs caused the terminal to crash
20:32:06 <Koen_> I mean I didn't even compile it
20:32:07 <oerjan> Gregor: have you considered making HackEgo strip final spaces on input
20:32:14 <ais523> Koen_: that is probably some other problem, then
20:32:27 <ais523> it's rare for C files to do anything useful unless an attempt is made to compile and/or run them
20:32:38 <Koen_> I think the terminal understood I was trying to harm it
20:32:48 <Koen_> and shut me out before I could do so
20:33:15 <olsner> some C files are also programs in other languages (but even then, you usually have to compile or run them)
20:34:18 <ais523> olsner: I specifically said "compile and/or run" for that reason :)
20:37:12 <olsner> it'd be interesting to have a file where viewing it is enough to cause the terminal to "compile and/or run" it
20:37:52 <ais523> olsner: I have a few terminal test files which are specifically used via catting them to the terminal
20:38:08 <ais523> which are polyglots of various terminal types
20:38:43 <ais523> see, for instance, http://nethack4.org/media/charset.vt100
20:39:58 <boily> I don't have IBM graphics :(
20:40:46 <Koen_> ais523: so apparently closing stdin, stdout or stderr doesn't have any effect other than them not being open any more
20:41:03 <ais523> Koen_: on the terminal? no, it doesn't
20:41:09 <Koen_> but write(STDOUT, str, len); doesn't crash when stdout is closed, it just doesn't do anything
20:41:10 <ais523> terminals mostly don't care which programs have the open
20:41:27 <ais523> the system call returns -EBADF
20:41:40 <ais523> which translates into setting errno to EBADF and returning the error return value, in C
20:42:04 <Koen_> I may have discarded the return value
20:43:14 <Koen_> http://pastebin.com/8TCfmYrM
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20:59:32 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH! WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?
21:00:01 <boily> stupid undocumented mess of a fungot of stupid XML of the hair of a horse's buttocks.
21:00:02 <fungot> boily: macd. is thy name: i like not faire tearmes, and a slaue of mee, as i take it
21:00:59 <boily> when you get a json error complaining about a mismatched '}' because you swapped single and double quote in a tag attribute...
21:00:59 <fizzie> fungot: Do you mind people (well, just boily, I guess) using you as a swear word?
21:01:01 <fungot> fizzie: enter count rossillion and the frenchmen, as at work: my old master, and to drinkings and swearings and starings, pribbles and prabbles? will not he? catesby. he doth entreat your grace to his maiesties parliament, holden at bury the first of britain which did put his browes within a golden crowne, heauen for his mercy: hear your sentence you haue conspir'd against our royal person as is the air, and forth again, as if
21:01:31 <boily> frenchmen and rossillions and salmiakki, oh my!
21:01:41 * boily wildly flails around
21:03:36 <boily> fizzie: I can't use my precious bot as a swearing target, and I have a sentimental attachment to yours.
21:04:20 <boily> ∴, fungot has it. besides, it helps me calm down like a nice mint herbal tea.
21:04:20 <fungot> boily: 1. tis likely, by all your good leaues gentlemen; heere ile make my heauen in a ladies lappe, and she there dead, that's romeos faithfull wife: i, and the tallest: it is my fashion when i see my shame in him.
21:08:04 <ais523> what would make you want to use the name of a bot as a swearword anyway, though?
21:08:58 <boily> no idea. it works.
21:09:16 <olsner> fungot: what did you do to deserve this?
21:09:17 <fungot> olsner: othello. would! nay, hear me, hero: wooing, wedding, and repenting is as a fever longing still, for that which is the mightier, in his time thought false: and fnord crispian shall ne're goe by, from this vnhallow'd and blood-stained hole?
21:09:47 -!- conehead has joined.
21:10:44 <olsner> Fnord Crispian, sounds namey
21:11:16 <boily> what's my daily dibs quota? I'd really like to use that name for my next roleplay.
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21:21:04 <olsner> boily: ask fungot nicely and it might give you the rights
21:21:05 <fungot> olsner: bull. i know him, ' tis not my profit that does lead mine honour: mine honour it, repent that ere thy tongue, that truth should be suspected. speak, pyramus. thisby, stand forth.
21:21:56 <boily> fungot: please, with shiny teary eyes as in 少女 anime?
21:21:56 <fungot> boily: cas. how now, what newes with your mastership? la. i prethee recount some of them.
21:22:15 <zzo38> I don't really like 4e much; I like 3.5e
21:22:24 <zzo38> You can play 4e if you want, though
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21:22:56 <olsner> boily: fungot prethees, make of that what you want
21:22:57 <fungot> olsner: falstaff. let me be punish'd, sovereign, lest example breed, by his highness' warrant, master shrieve: dispose of them, and if it be now, ' tis with vs, we shall begin our ancient fnord lordings, farewell; and be proud of thy bondage. i have it: we have always truly serv'd you; and beseech so to esteem of us: keep on your way
21:23:12 <boily> @tell zzo38 our DM's been working for some time now on a custom system that we haven't tested yet.
21:23:49 <boily> we also play paranoia from time to time, but my character's name is fixed and set. «Shlebesh Gurgudugurgudu».
21:28:56 <oerjan> i doubt the Computer would approve of that name, Citizen
21:31:09 <boily> it's my own personal name. other people don't have to know it :D
21:32:04 <Taneb> I don't think the computer approves of secrets, Citizen
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21:33:49 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that.
21:34:45 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least.
21:34:55 <Taneb> So he definitely isn't Canadian
21:35:00 <HackEgo> +z`o|Vˏy;X pig霛҆DN̜b35Ri{w\dZ_5SVl&a?NJ;y.#.I \ /Do 0?CК0%! \ T= FwuO-"]ArUH5?; \ ;03V LӊԻU=|
21:35:33 <HackEgo> Roujo is still a Java heretic. His claim to Canadianness is soon to be verified by boily, treaties be damned. A cocktail and destruction of the Universe are scheduled at 19h00.
21:35:34 <olsner> well, stuff like Canada may *seem* to exist without actually existing
21:36:17 <Taneb> olsner, ever seen Scott Pilgrim? In that film, Canada doesn't seem to exist at all!
21:36:23 <ais523> olsner: I think we've decided that Canada is in fact the only country such that we're confident it exists
21:36:51 <olsner> ais523: wow, what a plot twist
21:37:18 <ais523> a while back, not quite sure how long, though; it's possible that time itself is unreliable for that purpose
21:37:23 <olsner> Taneb: as far as I recall that film had nothing to do with Canada
21:37:33 <oerjan> it is possible ais523 got sent through an anti-truth wormhole
21:37:41 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
21:37:51 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
21:38:06 <Taneb> olsner, the first line is "In the far off land of Toronto, Canada, Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler"
21:38:07 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
21:38:32 <olsner> is it possible for time to conspire such that the time during which we're confident that Canada exists doesn't exist?
21:39:11 <Taneb> I think so, but I'm not confident
21:40:38 <Roujo> I can confirm that Canada can exist
21:40:45 <Roujo> Whether it does...
21:41:07 <Roujo> `? whether it does
21:41:09 <HackEgo> whether it does? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:41:24 <Taneb> Canada may be the country I've got second-closest to on land without actually visiting
21:41:45 <Taneb> Second to the Vatican
21:42:06 <olsner> when in rome ... visit the vatican!
21:42:13 <kmc> what about passing through on a train without stopping
21:42:14 <kmc> does that count
21:42:25 <olsner> (on second thought, don't bother, it's really just a big church)
21:42:31 <kmc> it's pretty!
21:42:54 <boily> kmc: we don't have trains. rumours of Via Rail still existing are unfounded and blatant lies.
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21:49:04 <kmc> btw happy UK Summer Bank Holiday everyone!
21:49:17 <kmc> (Scotland excepted)
21:49:36 <ais523> although that mostly just annoyed me
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21:53:04 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Tue Aug 27 00:53:04 2013
21:53:18 <boily> @tell oerjan お休みなさい！
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22:34:01 <Bike> http://books.google.com/books/about/Ramanujan_Revisited.html?id=GJUEAQAAIAAJ "Religion > Hinduism > General" hey how about fuck you
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22:45:11 <kmc> bikeyellsatamazon.tumblr.com
22:45:36 <Bike> why would follow any other tumblr? (TM)
22:45:57 <boily> it should feature tom selleck, waterfalls and sandwiches.
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23:19:54 <kmc> Address 0x1 is not stack'd, malloc'd or (recently) free'd
23:20:09 <Bike> who would have guessed
23:20:42 <ais523> what might be fun: find a platform where the stack grows upwards
23:20:54 <ais523> and using mmap and sigaltstack trickery, get the stack to start at NULL
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23:34:32 <boily> nothing like a good youtube touhou mix full blast in your earphones when doing overtime.
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00:22:31 <boily> hum. it's awfully quiet in here. guess everybody else went to sleep, or something similarly cadaverous...
00:23:13 <boily> that, or as bash.org pointed out, I'm on the receiving end of giant snails doing weird things whil I'm unconscious and dreaming I'm on IRC.
00:24:16 -!- itsy has left.
00:26:14 <boily> is that ascii art for a snail?
00:26:45 <kmc> the name for that symbol in many languages means "snail"
00:27:49 <boily> in turkish it's "horse" because of a bad pun.
00:27:57 <kmc> what's the pun
00:28:06 <boily> "at". it's turkish for "horse".
00:28:31 <ion> In Finnish some people call it “cat’s tail” but most just say “at”.
00:29:49 <boily> speaking of puns, are there any good puns out there? seems like every one of them is considered bad.
00:29:59 <kmc> there was a cat on my porch yesterday
00:30:07 <kmc> it didn't try to eat the helper worms
00:30:12 <kmc> or the basil
00:30:21 <ion> Some also call it miukumauku, an onomatopoetic word that translates to something like “a mew, a meow”
00:31:47 <shachaf> kmc: in hebrew it is colloquially called a "strudel" hth
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00:35:29 <boily> I fscking hungry. I was supposed to eat three hours ago.
00:37:50 <kmc> what were you supposed to eat
00:38:06 <boily> my regular weekly poutine.
00:38:19 <boily> and it's my first week that I can finally get beer!
00:38:28 <boily> (first week since June)
00:38:54 <kmc> why's that
00:39:05 <boily> I was on medication for the past few months.
00:39:38 <boily> and I'm stuck here slaving myself away for a stupid demo tomorrow.
00:39:48 <boily> oh well. I'll get plenty of time off on Friday.
00:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i seriously wish someone would ban the political compass
00:49:11 <Bike> it's hilarious though
00:50:14 <boily> I scored (-6.5, -6.5) on it :D
00:50:21 <boily> but where should it be banned from?
00:50:21 <Bike> congratulations libertarians, you have developed an understanding of politics more sophisticated than CNN
00:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> because the questions are slanted towards leftist economic policies
00:51:16 <ion> All compasses should be banned.
00:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Governments should penalise businesses that mislead the public." like seriously
00:53:51 <Bike> is that leftist or just dumb? i would say dumb
00:54:35 <Bike> the whole "socially liberal but economically conservative" being a thing that makes sense is libertarian though, thinking you can separate the axes i mean
00:55:27 <Fiora> isn't there that confusing thing where "economically liberal" actually means right wing
00:55:38 <Phantom_Hoover> but there's a clear ideological axis to that question, and i don't think even ayn rand would say 'disagree' to that one
00:56:08 <Fiora> I thought the libertarian axis to that question was "of course not, the magical hand of magic free market adam smith will fix everything!"
00:56:10 <Bike> Fiora: that's "classical liberal"
00:56:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: you think? i'm not so sure
00:56:35 <Fiora> I always remember reading libertarian types being opposed to exactly that type of regulatin
00:56:49 <Fiora> e.g. supporting the idea that "fox news is allowed to lie, that's not the government's business", etc
00:57:15 <boily> seems like I'm not the only one that egregiously accentise in uncouth places...
00:57:30 <Bike> reminds me of chomsky's hilarious libel thing
00:57:32 <kmc> yeah well in theory the market will demand a superior news product and the liars lose market share
00:57:36 <kmc> in practice that barely happens ever
00:57:49 <boily> in a comment in python code: # ... that display existing pîcking orders...
00:57:52 <Bike> an inadequate theory.
00:57:53 <kmc> people are lazy and barely even watch the news, yet alone informed meta-criticism
00:58:01 <kmc> let alone*
00:58:15 <kmc> sometimes FOX will say something egregiously horrible and lose advertisers for a time
00:58:21 <kmc> in fact I think Glenn Beck left because of that kind of thing
00:58:35 <Bike> glenn beck had his own ad problems didn't he
00:58:39 <kmc> but that's different from the low level steady stream of lies that aren't outrageous in an attention grabbing way
00:58:40 <Fiora> kmc: yeah I'm not sure anyone here needs convincing of that one <.<
00:58:44 <Bike> one of the radio guys anyway
00:59:08 <Bike> i remember hearing some ruckus with dittoheads or whoever complaining about some company pulling ads because that's censorship
00:59:42 <kmc> freedom of speech means freedom from consequences for speech, right?
00:59:47 <kmc> I'm pretty sure that's how it works
00:59:54 <Fiora> kmc: except when it's people you don't like
00:59:55 <Bike> like, duh, man.
01:00:19 <Fiora> "<racist thing>" "that's racist!" "you're just trying to censor me!" "actually we're kinda just saying you're racist"
01:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> so like i'm pretty sure that question's going to classify the objectivist line as 'economic left'
01:00:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a different kind of fraud...
01:00:50 <Bike> " it consists, in essence, of one man receiving the material values, goods or services of another, then refusing to pay for them" doesn't sound like lying
01:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fraud involves a similarly indirect use of force: it consists of obtaining material values without their owner’s consent, under false pretenses or false promises."
01:01:00 <Bike> except in an extremely bizarre sense of "material" i guess?
01:01:34 <Bike> i mean basically in rand's world the state should only exist to enforce contracts (as in actual contracts, not "the social contract" or whatever)
01:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> that sounds like 'misleading someone into performing some exchange with you'
01:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, yeah; and it seems to me like she thought fraud falls within that remit
01:02:10 <Bike> you know what, can we just agree that neither of us want to think too deeply about rand? because i really don't
01:02:20 <Bike> i mean it's definitely a dumb question.
01:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> well... all i'm trying to say here is that i think the compass is slanted towards 'left-libertarian', not right
01:03:17 <kmc> a million randian digits with 100000 normal deviates
01:03:37 <Bike> honestly, maybe it is, i thought that it was designed by libertarians but i guess that's not the case
01:04:26 <Phantom_Hoover> they are a pretty dominant source of internet political bullshit
01:04:48 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: imagining trolling r/libertarian or whatever by asking them if this news example constitutes government-punishable fraud
01:04:52 <kmc> sadly this means anyone who wants more than a one dimensional political spectrum is suspected of being a libertarian
01:05:37 <Bike> personally i think i'm pretty against any dimensionality :V
01:06:19 <Bike> probably because i like reading about mideast politics and i don't think you can quantify much of that with axes
01:06:51 <Bike> heh, well i think it's similar to any politics if you look closely enough
01:07:33 <Bike> i'm not sure how much good a compass gets you outside of the american two-party sort of system
01:07:56 <kmc> I think Americans have a tendency to make the israeli/palestinean conflict sound more complicated than it is
01:08:08 <kmc> and to overstate the role of religion and supposed ancient grudges and stuff
01:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> they did apply it to the uk parties: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
01:08:38 <Bike> i mean saying "the democrats are left and the republicans are right" basically tells you nothing helpful about their policies, and as you keep going you realize wait yeah the parties are just "big tents"
01:08:50 <kmc> surprise they're both on the right
01:08:53 <Bike> kmc: oh my god if i hear another person talk about how x and y have been fighting for "thousands of years"
01:09:10 <Bike> saudi arabia didn't even EXIST before the 20th century youa ssholes
01:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i do like the split between the nationalist parties there though
01:09:37 <Bike> i was gonna say the BNP/UKIP thing is funny
01:10:28 <kmc> I mean framing it that way provides a lot of political cover for Israel
01:10:37 <Bike> kmc: but yeah, palestianians didn't really care about jews before the whole.. israel thing, bla bla you know this
01:11:03 <Bike> it's lazy and yeah lends itself to "well they're just irrational, better give up and support Peace and Stability"
01:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> like how there are the 'british' nationalists (bnp/dup/ukip) and the 'constituent' nationalists (sinn fein/plaid cymru/snp/sdlp)
01:11:53 <Bike> are there many scottish people in the BNP
01:12:18 <Bike> tbh i mostly think of the BNP as the fuck muslims party
01:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> that this site is hosted on blogspot speaks for itself, i feel
01:12:53 <Bike> "Yes, I know we have read about these cases before where the undesirable cannot be kicked out of Britain after a court say`s that it would deny them of the right to family life." and i'm done.
01:13:01 <Bike> undesirable. undesirable
01:13:14 <kmc> SNP isn't "nationalist" in the fascist way though, are they?
01:13:52 <Bike> how's the referendum stuff going, btw
01:13:59 <kmc> I kind of want Scottish independence to succeed just because it would be interesting, but I have zero skin in the game and zero real understanding of the consequences
01:14:03 <Bike> have you destroyed UK unity yet
01:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> it will definitely be 'no' but the english don't seem to realise that
01:14:32 <Bike> that's what i gathered i think
01:14:35 <kmc> why will it definitely be 'no'
01:15:24 <Phantom_Hoover> because public sentiment is towards no by a significant margin, from every single projection i've seen
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01:16:28 <Bike> so, why is sentiment like that
01:16:54 <kmc> there's more than a year of campaigning ahead though
01:17:43 <Bike> there's a staunch unionist in the SA thread who is an annoying git and has an avatar of the Stig, which is enough to make me wish for independence. i'm a solid political thinker.
01:17:54 <kmc> who/what is the Stig
01:18:17 <Bike> top gear is funny but the presenters are kind of douches sometimes
01:18:32 <kmc> douchery is the source of all wit (not really)
01:18:35 <Phantom_Hoover> was originally going to be called the gimp but someone at the bbc told clarkson he wasn't at repton any more
01:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc stewart lee on the topic
01:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (i didn't check, but if that's the video where he mention's gordon brown's half-blindness i would like to point out that brown actually went blind playing rugby at university and so completely deserved it)
01:24:49 <Bike> rugby, the silent killer
01:28:23 <kmc> Moffett Airfield was going to be called Mountain View Airport but somebody pointed out this is an ominous name for an airport
01:28:33 <boily> THE PINEAPLLES MOVE! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH! I CAN GO SLEEP!
01:28:39 <kmc> right then
01:28:44 <kmc> i'll have what he's having
01:29:15 <boily> woohoo, 11.5 hours of work...
01:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i got confused there for a second and thought it was a crack at doctor who
01:29:52 <boily> kmc: our client is an import and distributor of fruits and veggies. I'm working on shipments, and my test data revolves around pineapples.
01:30:24 <boily> sorry about the sudden insanity. I am not insane. everything is fine.
01:38:10 <boily> time to inhale a bigmac. goodnight all.
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02:44:25 <zzo38> What needs to be made more complex?
02:45:10 <Sgeo> zzo38: numbers
02:45:35 <Sgeo> Need to get them off the axises (axes?)
02:46:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you mean complex numbers? What about the axes is this about?
02:47:43 <Sgeo> Yes, I was referring to complex numbers. I was saying numbers need to be made more complex, and by moving them off the axes, I intended to suggest making them have both a real and imaginary part. Although I guess real numbers are complex too.
02:50:27 <zzo38> Complex numbers do have a real and imaginary part. Real numbers are a special case (in that the value and operators convert from real to complex homomorphically)
02:51:50 <Sgeo> Well, being off the axes implies nonzero real and imaginary parts, which isn't really necessary
02:53:23 <zzo38> What exactly are you meaning by that? I can see that if you are writing it as a point on a X-Y axis then that is how it works, but I don't know what you mean, especially since you write "which isn't really necessary" too
02:54:32 <Sgeo> As I understand it, 5 + 0i is a complex number, but it is on an axis. I mistakenly implied in my joke that it would have to have nonzero real and imaginary parts to be considered a complex number.
02:56:11 <zzo38> O, that's whaty ou meant by it. Yes "5 + 0i" is a complex number (and it is equal to a natural number 5)
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02:58:24 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 35m 11s ago: our DM's been working for some time now on a custom system that we haven't tested yet.
02:58:58 <zzo38> boily isn't on right now, but I can tell of my system (and variants of 3.5e which we use)
03:01:57 <zzo38> I use LA (which 4e lacks), and don't use CR and EL (4e keeps these features); my own (unfinished and untested) custom system is like this too; it uses LA although it is called "pseudolevels" instead since I think that is a better name for it.
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03:04:19 <thedeco> Can anyone here help me figure out what language this is written in?
03:04:22 <thedeco> 3 3 3 3***1_+,10 3 3**7+,100 16 2_++,3__3__3_3_***19+16+,4_4_*2*,10$*1+10$*4$*1_++10$*1+$$3+$5-10_10_*23+10_6_*2_+7$*,,,,,,,,,
03:05:04 <thedeco> >99*1-,25*:*3-,25*:*44*+2-,25*:*44*+,84*,96*1-,97*5-,25*:*1+,25*:*25*+,v @,*52,+*55*:*52,**52*52<
03:05:21 <zzo38> Where did you find that?
03:05:35 <zzo38> I don't think they are satanic runes, though
03:05:46 <Bike> do you have any proof
03:06:03 <zzo38> No, I am just guessing
03:06:14 <Bike> actually wait, i've seen this before maybe. i think it was TECO or something related
03:10:19 <thedeco> It was a challenge a buddy has me working on to solve
03:10:40 <thedeco> It was a puzzle with 5 parts
03:10:47 <Bike> er not teco. one of those old things
03:10:50 <thedeco> first part was the first one
03:11:02 <thedeco> second part was written in zombie
03:11:06 <Bike> _ probably indicates negation and it's otherwise postfix. maybe
03:11:36 <thedeco> 5th is the second one i posted
03:12:32 <Bike> http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2010/11/30/the-glorious-horror-of-teco/ eh, doesn't look as similar as i thought
03:12:40 <Bike> it's like some weird mash of dc, i don't know
03:13:10 <Bike> i don't think dc uses comma though.
03:13:27 <Bike> does vi have postfix arithmetic? i haven't a damn clue
03:13:30 <thedeco> they remind me of a linear brainfuck like language I just have never seen it
03:13:45 <Bike> it's not much like brainfix, it's pretty obviously postfix arithmeticing
03:13:54 <thedeco> no amount of googling has helped me
03:15:37 <Bike> like 3 3 3 3***1_+ means 3*3*3*3-1, probably, and then i kinda lose it because i don't know what the comma is
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03:17:16 <thedeco> if you treated it just like a comma maybe it is simply a message
03:17:36 <zzo38> If they are ASCII codes then the first three letters are "Par"
03:19:34 <thedeco> zzo38: How did you derive that?
03:19:40 <zzo38> But there are more commas at the end as well as dollar signs, maybe dollar sign is DUP and comma is EMIT perhaps?
03:21:02 <thedeco> on a side note anyone know where I can find a zombie code interpreter?
03:32:19 <zzo38> I realize that the Hackiki changes list has something like "summary: medit/bin/uselessness_rpg_1,,game_rules chebang=#!/usr/bin/env .wiki cont=== Ability scores ==" so some parameters are in the summary; perhaps another edit summary field can be added using this, then? (Such as adding a field called "A" comes before "chebang", could be used)
03:33:27 <Sgeo> Software Downloads Associated with File Extension WAGAME:
03:33:27 <Sgeo> • FileViewPro* (free trial download)
03:33:27 <Sgeo> • Worms Armageddon Game Replay (Team17)
03:33:30 <Sgeo> slimey bastards
03:34:45 <zzo38> Not sure what the first thing has to do but I suppose "WAGAME" can be considered short for "Worms Armageddon Game". Maybe FileViewPro is supporting a lot of file types?
03:35:17 <Sgeo> FileViewPro is blatantly a piece of software that that website I pasted from is involved with
03:35:41 <Sgeo> I think they just say that, for any file extension, FileViewPro can open it
03:36:03 <Sgeo> Different site: http://www.openfileguide.com/article/How-to-open-.WAGAME-file.html
03:36:09 <Sgeo> haha meeting.WAGAME
03:36:37 <Sgeo> Had a very important meeting thru a Worms game
03:36:42 <zzo38> Then it should be listed in a separate list, saying "all file" in the result menu, and if you click that one then it says FileViewPro
03:37:33 <Sgeo> ".WAGAME file extension is popular essentially, for its role is important in various Windows Operating Systems. And it also features in many other functions and programs on the PC. This file extension is very important in the successful performance of the taks on the PC. "
03:39:04 <Sgeo> Hmm, starting to occur to me that I shouldn't have opened that link on my real Windows system
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03:40:06 <zzo38> I managed to add a edit summary into Hackiki now.
03:41:01 <zzo38> This is a good things about Hackiki; anyone can modify the program to make it do these kind of things!
03:41:12 <mrout> Are there any esoteric languages that are like Forth except with a queue instead of a stack? Because if not there will be one by the end of the day :P
03:42:07 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I still need to make Braintrust 2
03:51:59 <zzo38> mrout: I don't know; you can check.
03:52:47 <zzo38> But I think a Forth program can be made that implements commands for treating the stack as a queue
03:52:49 <mrout> http://i.imgur.com/F1IMP3s.png http://i.imgur.com/INevznF.png
03:52:58 <mrout> if you want more info on what I mean
03:53:35 <zzo38> I do know what you mean already
03:54:28 <zzo38> It is probably possible to implement queue Forth in Forth.
03:54:55 <Sgeo> I guess Rebol, insofar it can be considered along those lines, still acts more stackish than queueish
03:55:14 <Sgeo> Just a reverse stack than is typical
03:55:57 <mrout> I've never used Rebol, how does it work
03:56:48 <Sgeo> The language as a whole, or the bit that's relevant to this discussion?
03:57:26 <mrout> the bit that's relevant to this discussion
03:57:38 <mrout> in the appropriate context of the language of a whole, if that's required
03:57:54 <Sgeo> Ok. Keep in mind that this is just a portion of the language that's, in a sense, default as a programming language:
03:58:24 <Sgeo> When you have a word, like add, it tries to take in the next two arguments. But in its place you could also have a word, which will then take its arguments first
03:58:34 <Sgeo> So, if you have words like add, you could do something like
03:58:38 <Sgeo> add add 1 1 add 2 2
03:59:16 <mrout> and is that any different to add(add(1,1),add(2,2))
03:59:59 <Bike> except that the arities have to be fixed.
04:00:19 <Sgeo> But this works too: add add add 2 2 1 1
04:00:44 <Sgeo> Yes, arities have to be fixed
04:00:46 <mrout> add(add(2,2),add(1,1)) or add(add(add(2,2),1),1)?
04:01:12 <mrout> (I mean, in the context of add it's all associative so it doesn't actually matter, but let's pretend addition isn't associative for a moment)
04:01:19 <Sgeo> The latter (I think
04:03:44 <Sgeo> It acts a lot like a reverse Forth, basically
04:03:50 <Sgeo> Except no actual stack
04:03:57 <Sgeo> Well, there is a stack, I guess
04:04:08 <Sgeo> Just not one that persists between commands
04:05:46 <Sgeo> http://www.re-bol.com/rebol.html#section-6.1.1
04:06:59 <Sgeo> ^^much saner than anything I can say
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04:41:40 <pikhq> modprobe -r brcsmac;modprobe brcsmac ;# why does this fix my wifi?
04:54:38 <Gracenotes> in the two days I waited to get plane tickets, prices went up $200
04:55:16 <shachaf> Are you ticketing to Boston?
04:57:38 <zzo38> I changed the money in Uselessness RPG into euro currency instead of yen, so that it isn't the same letter.
04:59:02 <Gracenotes> hm. I can get jetblue here and virgin back, for about, hm
04:59:29 <Gracenotes> hm. that's not super, but passable, I suppose...
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05:04:43 <Gracenotes> okay, looks like friday is a bit of an anomaly; I should just go the next day
05:41:42 <Gracenotes> I think it's probably a good idea to get travel insurance on a return trip that's not part of a roundtrip?
05:42:22 <Bike> souns reasonable
05:43:27 <Gracenotes> airplanes are weird. I'm going on them more nowadays, though. very exciting.
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06:00:57 <zzo38> The edit summary I added in Hackiki works despite not being programmed to do anything; it is just a <input name="A"> in the editor, and the editor program doesn't do anything with it.
06:14:47 <ion> There’s a Finnish news article <http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/onko+tassa+kaikkien+aikojen+paras+nappaimistokikka/a2200348> about an English article <http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/08/22/keyboard_shortcut_helps_recover_lost_browser_tabs.html> about a tweet <https://twitter.com/meliarobin/status/370617786260680704> which reveals that (drumroll) you can reopen closed tabs with
06:14:49 <ion> ctrl/cmd-shift-t. The title of the Finnish article translates to “Is this the best keyboard gimmick of all time?”
06:15:09 <Bike> to be fair, it is
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06:24:12 <zzo38> The mailing list is an interesting feature of Hackiki too.
06:25:57 <zzo38> Why does the mailing list add a space after a comma in the title?
06:26:24 <shachaf> ion: did you do the exercises
06:30:00 <ion> shachaf: Not yet. I have been studying flight dynamics.
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07:22:56 <oklopol> "no more called-out cusswords, no more wishing the back button had you covered when, aiming to click on a tab, you accidentally hit the little X on the tab’s starboard." is it so hard to click the reopen tab button that you have to start cursing?
07:23:04 <oklopol> or did chrome not have that at some point
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09:56:53 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 3m 35s ago: お休みなさい！
09:57:34 * oerjan uses google translate. it is super effective!
09:58:18 <oerjan> 's actually surprisingly long to mean just "good night", isn't it.
09:58:36 * elliott just assumed you said "that hth" or something
09:58:54 <elliott> it looks like it's in hiragana rather than kanji?
09:58:58 <elliott> help I don't know anything
09:59:43 <elliott> maybe not. god. I don't know
10:00:49 <Taneb> > length "お休みなさい！"
10:00:55 <Taneb> > length "goodnight!"
10:01:25 <oerjan> except google translate suggests the even longer おやすみなさい！
10:01:37 <Taneb> > length "おやすみなさい！"
10:02:17 <oerjan> long for a language with syllabic characters, Taneb
10:02:37 <oerjan> (and sometimes more than syllabic)
10:06:39 <fizzie> `run perl -MEncode -Mutf8 -e 'print length(encode("UTF-8", "おやすみなさい！"));' # then again
10:07:52 <oerjan> @tell boily God ettermiddag!
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10:10:02 <elliott> "Texture 2.0 (my Haskell based visual live programming language) is working a bit more. It has reached gabber zero – the point at which a programming language is able to support the production of live techno."
10:12:05 <oerjan> learning names of new subgenres of music genres i already don't listen to makes me feel so old.
10:12:40 <Taneb> oerjan, my brother's a glitch-hop/jazz mashup fan
10:13:08 <oerjan> you trying to kill me with old age here
10:14:27 <Taneb> I'm not even sure what glitch-hop is and I'm the same age as some hip young teenagers
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10:15:56 <fizzie> I assume it's some kind of "hop" made out of audio resulting from video game glitches.
10:17:12 <oerjan> should make a new subgenre of lindy hop just to confuse people
10:35:38 <oerjan> the point would be that it's _not_ hiphop, olsner
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10:44:14 <fizzie> Huphop is made by kill -1'ing processes.
11:18:03 <elliott> oerjan: how has your hth treatment been going so far, twh
11:18:59 <fizzie> Is that when you spend small amounts of time breathing pure hth?
11:19:07 <oerjan> <mrout> Are there any esoteric languages that are like Forth except with a queue instead of a stack? Because if not there will be one by the end of the day :P
11:19:30 <elliott> fizzie: it's when you run a perl script written by me with zero testing to run inside your IRC client for some reason
11:19:42 <oerjan> and no one managed to mention any of the heap we've already got
11:20:20 <oerjan> and MSM's "successor", both from just last week or so
11:20:29 <oerjan> (did you see my MSM queue twh)
11:21:20 <elliott> look oerjan, I can make the script more complicated or you can cooperate!!
11:21:20 <oerjan> i blame corruption from the visual field
11:21:54 <elliott> probably ) should be added to the punctuation it looks for after a forbidden word
11:22:29 <oerjan> you need a function for how to combine if there is punctuation _both_ before and after
11:23:03 <oerjan> (i think you are just discarding both at the moment, which is of course anathema to )
11:23:36 <elliott> on the other hand, imbalancing your parentheses will encourage you to omit the word!
11:24:46 <oerjan> elliott: also i did at least _read_ your script before installing it. i'm not completely crazy. wait, i am, just not in that way. hm i guess it's not complete if it's not in every way
11:25:32 <elliott> it's something like the third to fifth perl program I've ever written. and the first irssi script.
11:26:18 <elliott> https://github.com/fis/mcmap/blob/master/block.pl and https://github.com/fis/mcmap/blob/master/protocol.pl are the only ones I remember actually using
11:26:55 <oerjan> @tell mrout You might want to check out Qdeql, Sqecl, Fueue, MSM and STXTRM (the latter added in just recent days, and somewhere half between stack and queue in practice)
11:27:30 <fizzie> You got me wondering "why is there a hth-related Irssi script in the mcmap repository" for a moment there.
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11:50:28 <oerjan> <ion> ctrl/cmd-shift-t. The title of the Finnish article translates to “Is this the best keyboard gimmick of all time?” <-- seeing as i use it all the f time...
12:29:43 <oklopol> oerjan: the two goodnights are the same, one just uses the kanji for yasumi, and the other writes it in hiragana
12:34:27 <oklopol> actually the kanji was just yasu
12:35:58 <oerjan> slight experimentation splitting the phrase up seemed to indicate that it contained no parts corresponding to either "good" or "night" :P
12:43:38 <Deewiant> If it was oyasuminasai then "yasumi" kind of corresponds to "night"
12:47:09 <oerjan> google gives "rest" for that.
12:47:38 <oerjan> so i guess it essentially translates to "Go get some rest!"
12:48:58 <Deewiant> I see it akin to something like "have a [good] rest"
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13:38:45 <Sgeo> http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2009/05/29/changes-in-operas-user-agent-string-format
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13:51:41 <boily> good remote morning!
13:51:51 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 43m 58s ago: God ettermiddag!
13:52:09 <boily> uhm. what's an ettermiddag? is it like a fternooner?
13:52:14 <metasepia> middag og frem til kveld Vi skal mtes i ettermiddag.
13:53:38 <boily> @tell oerjan Veien å gå med den sleipe curveball, du djevel.
13:54:26 <boily> google translate confirms it is a fternooner.
13:56:23 <boily> `learn fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
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14:03:51 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: no hello for you, you boogler.
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14:07:44 <Roujo> 'morning, #esoteric
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14:41:46 -!- Zuu has changed nick to DeadZuu.
14:42:21 * boily sweeps the cadavers under the rug
14:43:12 <Roujo> boily: Are they that exquisite that you have to hide them?
14:44:31 <boily> I don't like inedible cadavers.
14:48:49 <boily> haskell question: is it possible to create your own deriving?
14:52:17 <elliott> no, but you can do similar things
14:54:59 <boily> does it involve TH?
14:55:16 <elliott> the latest thing is "GHC generics" (not the same as "SYB generics" and stuff)
14:55:17 <boily> ah! I can go another day without learning TH!
14:55:24 <elliott> you do "data Foo = ... deriving (Generic)
14:55:55 -!- DeadZuu has changed nick to Zuu.
14:56:23 <boily> Roujo: can you unrug Zuu for me please? I'm busy learning what (Generic) is.
14:56:49 <elliott> it's kind of horrific to use
14:57:13 <boily> oh. and there I hoped it would be easier to understand than that sybbing stuff.
14:57:19 <Roujo> I should learn Haskell, I guess =P
14:58:28 <Roujo> Oh, Zuu, question for you
14:58:38 <boily> Roujo: je te vois venir.
14:58:49 <Roujo> Is it Time To Tell The Truth Tuesday where you live?
14:58:53 <Zuu> Roujo: what question?
14:59:00 <boily> Roujo: oh. a new one, eh?
14:59:48 <Zuu> Roujo: imho, it is alwyas time to tell the truth where i live, and everywhere i dont live, unless the truth has no purpose other than making yourself happy.
15:00:05 <Roujo> Zuu: I see. Thank you ^^
15:00:20 <Roujo> I thought I had recognized where I knew your name from, but it seems it might just be a coincidence =P
15:00:43 <Zuu> Roujo: I dont quite recognize yours :P
15:01:03 <Roujo> Zuu: I don't use the same nick over there either =P
15:05:25 <Roujo> So, let's say I want to learn Haskell
15:05:32 <Roujo> Having heard about it for so long
15:05:43 <Roujo> What would be a good starting point?
15:08:17 <boily> Roujo: http://learnyouahaskell.com/
15:08:38 <Roujo> That sentence... hurts =P
15:08:56 <Roujo> I'll look into that
15:09:26 <boily> once you're done reading it a few times forwards and backwards, keep the Typeclassopedia as a reference, and then you're gold.
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17:09:40 <boily> Roujo: so, how's the great good learning going on? ☻
17:10:01 <Roujo> So not really going on at all, really
17:10:35 -!- Koen_ has joined.
17:10:52 <boily> btw, what are your lunch options in Lachine? can you go out? cafétéria? do you have to bring your own lunches?
17:12:03 <Koen_> Lachine? is that that big country in Lasie?
17:12:53 <boily> that's our local version of china. Local China → L-Chine → Lachine.
17:13:28 <boily> incidentally, you can see Lachine as a kind of zerg nexus, as it's near the airport.
17:13:51 <fizzie> It sounds kind of Final Fantasyish.
17:14:13 <fizzie> You know, fal'Cie and all that.
17:14:20 <metasepia> The fal'Cie (ա Farushi) [flsi] are supernatural beings in Final Fantasy XIII.
17:14:43 <HackEgo> Roujo is still a Java heretic. His claim to Canadianness is soon to be verified by boily, treaties be damned. A cocktail and destruction of the Universe are scheduled at 19h00.
17:14:45 <zzo38> Do you know what telephone number "+55555" is?
17:15:16 <boily> zzo38: probably somewhere in Brasil.
17:15:36 <Roujo> boily: I work in Dorval, really. There are lunch options, but I just bring my lunch,.
17:16:26 <boily> `learn Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
17:17:24 <fizzie> It could also be some sort of placeholdery kind of number, by way of comparison with the fictional 555 US area code.
17:18:05 <boily> zzo38: 55 - Santa Maria / Uruguaiana / Cruz Alta (western Rio Grande do Sul)
17:18:46 <boily> mind you, that only amounts to four fives. the last one is probably part of a local xchange.
17:19:07 <fizzie> boily: Or possibly it's not a real number at all. Not everything that shows as the caller number is always true.
17:19:43 <boily> I believe in aliens, 555 numbers, and Canada!
17:20:28 <thedeco> anyone know how I would run this or what language this is written in?
17:20:32 <thedeco> 3 3 3 3***1_+,10 3 3**7+,100 16 2_++,3__3__3_3_***19+16+,4_4_*2*,10$*1+10$*4$*1_++10$*1+$$3+$5-10_10_*23+10_6_*2_+7$*,,,,,,,,,
17:20:46 <Koen_> that looks like a stack-based language
17:20:49 <fizzie> Probably something stack-ba...
17:20:54 <fizzie> Stop pre-empting people like that!
17:20:59 <zzo38> I think I figured it out, although haven't tried it
17:21:27 <kmc> are you sure it's not a.... brainfuck derivative
17:21:33 <fizzie> I think I vaguely recall something where _ was subtraction.
17:21:43 <Koen_> kmc: there are stack-based brainfuck derivative!
17:21:45 <thedeco> I looked at a lot of them and I couldn't find anything that included numbers
17:21:46 <fizzie> (Kind of like dc, where - is subtraction and therefore you use _ as the sign for negative numbers.)
17:21:51 <Koen_> thedeco: so in order to run it you'd need a stack
17:21:57 <Koen_> and to figure out what the operators do
17:22:13 <Koen_> you can guess that * does a multiplication and + an addition
17:22:17 <Koen_> as for the others eeeeeeeh
17:22:24 <fizzie> You can also sort-of guess that _ would be subtraction.
17:22:40 <boily> is it asciified APL? J?
17:22:50 <Koen_> spaces are just separators imho
17:22:53 <fizzie> Well, maybe not subtraction, after looking at that sequence.
17:23:02 <fizzie> Spaces are most likely separating numbers, yes.
17:23:18 <Koen_> so that you don't get confused between 3333 as three thousand three hundred thirty-three and 3 3 3 3 as three three three three
17:23:21 <fizzie> You could make an educated guess that , has to do with printing output.
17:23:37 <zzo38> Yes I think , is EMIT
17:23:41 <boily> maybe 3333 is a phone number?
17:23:55 <zzo38> I think I know what it is. I am testing my hypothesis now.
17:23:57 <fizzie> 3*3*3*3 == 81, which is right there in the printable-ASCII range.
17:24:03 <Koen_> you know what we'd need? a search-engine for esolangs based on instructions
17:24:55 <boily> Koen_: that's some pretty good idea you got there.
17:25:22 <thedeco> given the instructions here are the languages that use them
17:25:29 <boily> we could get fizzie to ML the fungot out of that DB, and if someone tries something original that has no hit, then we've got ourselves a shiny new esolang!
17:25:29 <fungot> boily: marina. the name of agincourt. yet sit and see, minding true things, by what you were, and as oft is dumbe, where dust, and be a happy mother by the deed
17:25:53 <fizzie> And 10 3 3**7+, is clearly 'a'.
17:25:53 <boily> also, if one submits something that suspiciously looks like a bf derivative, then *WHACK* IP ban.
17:25:55 <Koen_> okay pizza's waiting for me
17:26:15 <thedeco> that system could help me solve the next challenge which is >99*1-,25*:*3-,25*:*44*+2-,25*:*44*+,84*,96*1-,97*5-,25*:*1+,25*:*25*+,v @,*52,+*55*:*52,**52*52<
17:26:35 <thedeco> boily: im a noob here why?
17:26:50 <Deewiant> That looks like improperly wrapped befunge
17:27:21 <Deewiant> It prints "Part 5:end}" if wrapped correctly
17:27:22 <fizzie> Yes, presumably the < on the right end should go under the v.
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17:28:30 <thedeco> Deewiant: that was correct!
17:28:34 <boily> thedeco: brainfsck derivatives are trite, unoriginal, background noise and unwanted. there's a long history of various regulars battling the Hordes of Poor Brainfsck Rewrites.
17:29:04 <kmc> I don't think they all are
17:29:14 <kmc> it's more that it's too easy to create uninteresting bf derivatives
17:29:16 <boily> well, ook is unique imho hth.
17:29:16 <kmc> and lots of people do
17:29:20 <thedeco> down to the last part which is the 3 3 3 3 one
17:29:21 <kmc> if you create an interesting one, more power to ya
17:29:43 <thedeco> one of the parts was ook lol
17:30:26 <fizzie> Oh, it starts with "Pa", then.
17:30:37 <fizzie> In which case _ is probably "negate top value".
17:30:50 <thedeco> it would be Part 1: then followed by something
17:31:13 <fizzie> (Given that 3*3*3*3-1 is 80 which is 'P'; and 10*3*3+7 is 97 which is 'a'.)
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17:31:52 <kmc> deriving the language from an example program and output is a fun game
17:32:08 <fizzie> And that 4_4_*2*, is an obvious space ((-4)*(-4)*2 = 32); so you just need to guess a meaning for $.
17:32:55 <fizzie> Oh, there's the same number of $s than ,s? Perhaps it's a dup.
17:33:59 <Deewiant> Then it's "Part 1:{cheese" (without a line break following)
17:34:14 <Deewiant> (A few simple replacements make it befunge)
17:34:25 * elliott wonders if the point of such a challenge is not to do it yourself
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17:34:43 <fizzie> Still missing the name of the language, though. (Unless it's a custom one.)
17:35:11 <thedeco> elliott: I promise i used the google machine before I asked others
17:35:22 <fizzie> Hey, isn't that just FALSE?
17:35:37 <fizzie> It has _ for negation and $ for dup.
17:35:50 <fizzie> (And , for "write a character".)
17:36:15 <boily> oh, and while it is still time...
17:36:17 <fizzie> Man, I'm kind of ashamed for not recognizing FALSE.
17:36:22 <HackEgo> thedeco: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:36:46 <boily> we need a seminary to get us back on track with esolanging and on-töpic discussions.
17:37:08 <zzo38> I did think $ is DUP but maybe I did something wrong when converting to Forth
17:38:27 <Deewiant> Is there a good FALSE interpreter, PortableFalse says my compilers (gcc/clang/tcc) suck
17:39:25 <coppro> boily: I think you misunderstand what the topic here is
17:39:35 <coppro> if you think it's anything other than Hexham, you're wrong
17:40:30 <boily> coppro: yes, but we didn't recognized one of the Great Esolang Classics!
17:40:48 <coppro> boily: what makes you think this channel is about esolangs
17:41:00 -!- coppro has set topic: this channel is about Hexham.
17:41:16 <boily> coppro: oh, thanks. I got confused there, with the /topic.
17:41:38 <coppro> boily: yeah it happens
17:41:43 <boily> @tell tswett are you now properly undereffed?
17:41:58 <boily> coppro: so, how's life for you west of the border?
17:42:12 <coppro> (can someone reset the topic? I don't have the old one handy >_>)
17:42:33 <coppro> it's the week before the week before school
17:42:38 -!- boily has set topic: tswett needs noderefs | The welcomes of doom | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! │ Roujo.
17:42:40 <boily> :: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | <AnotherTest> fizzie: true, it needs to be made more complex
17:42:59 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:43:00 <boily> can someone competent (meaning absolutely not me) change the /topic, please?
17:44:08 <boily> @tell jsvine SUUUUUURVEEEEEEEEEY..... (sonata in the key of Zombie♯ minor)
17:44:25 -!- coppro has set topic: Hexham discussion channel | 22nd IOCCC: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.tex | esolang survey! http://goo.gl/UuOxzy | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:44:42 <boily> coppro: oh, school. that thing I don't have since 2011. MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
17:44:49 <coppro> boily: the joke is on you!
17:44:59 <boily> otoh, I still have school-related nightmares.
17:45:23 <boily> coppro: I went through an engineering degree, tyvm.
17:45:37 <boily> (one of the worse decisions in my life.)
17:45:41 <coppro> boily: the joke is really on you then
17:45:55 <zzo38> boily: You wrote a message to me but when I read it, you aren't on so I can't reply.
17:46:18 <Taneb> I have just finished school and shall be going on to big school soon
17:46:50 <elliott> although it is plausible that the IOCCC would offer their rules in TeX format.
17:47:40 <zzo38> boily: Was it about a custom role playing system or something like that? Do you have details?
17:47:43 <boily> coppro: well, the University years themselves were great, but the paper at the end isn't worth much.
17:48:04 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Hexham discussion channel | 22nd IOCCC: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:48:07 <boily> zzo38: I wrote a message about that? I have some very vague memories about discussing this subject with you.
17:48:10 <coppro> boily: what are you doing now?
17:48:18 <coppro> elliott: why no url shorteners?
17:48:28 <zzo38> boily: I don't really remember either, but you can check the channel logs; the message should be there.
17:48:40 <boily> coppro: consulto-development with FOSS ☺
17:48:54 <boily> zzo38: nah. I'm too lazy today.
17:49:08 <boily> coppro: the job is very nice, and it's surrounded by Montréal.
17:49:14 <elliott> coppro: obscures link destination, allows unwarranted tracking
17:49:50 <boily> elliott: I like http://www.shadyurl.com/
17:50:43 <zzo38> boily: This is the copy of the message: boily said 5h 35m 11s ago: our DM's been working for some time now on a custom system that we haven't tested yet.
17:51:27 <boily> zzo38: oh, thanks!
17:51:38 <zzo38> I have also been working on a custom (incomplete and untested) role playing system. Some of the details can be described by differences from 3.5e. CR and EL are eliminiated. LA is retained in a slightly different form called "pseudolevels".
17:51:44 <zzo38> boily: Do you have details?
17:52:31 <boily> zzo38: not yet. he's been very secretive about it, except some interesting character mechanics (like a dragon-hybrid that uses his money to gain buffs)
17:52:57 <coppro> boily: surrounded by montreal is a definite plus
17:53:05 <coppro> (unlike surrounded by toronto, which is nearly a dealbreaker for me)
17:53:10 <Taneb> Can someone correct the grammar of this sentence: "I've ended up going to bring a couple of friends along."
17:53:15 <boily> zzo38: another friend in another group's been working on his own apple-pie-from-scratch system for about ~10 years.
17:53:17 <Taneb> I've ran out of grammar lira
17:53:23 <coppro> Taneb: the grammar is correct
17:53:33 <Taneb> coppro, it doesn't feel it
17:53:36 <boily> coppro: supposedly you can get nice korean food in TO. do you confirm?
17:53:48 <coppro> boily: I can neither confirm nor deny
17:53:52 <zzo38> boily: I am also working on a system, from scratch although with some ideas based on 3.5e, Magic: the Gathering, category theory, and other things.
17:53:58 <boily> Taneb: as a certified Francophone, the grammar is correct.
17:54:03 <coppro> boily: I will take no further questions on the matter
17:54:09 <boily> coppro: so you're a politician, eh?
17:54:24 <boily> zzo38: category... theory... in an RPG???
17:54:30 <coppro> boily: aspiring to be Harper's sucessor
17:54:36 <coppro> Taneb: possibly you want it to means something different that what it says. But the grammar is correct
17:54:42 <boily> coppro: as PET said, just watch me?
17:54:49 <zzo38> boily: Yes, the magical system involves many mathematical things.
17:55:04 <boily> we are doomed. DOOOOOOMED, I SAY!
17:55:09 <Taneb> I now want to add a clause "who aren't in the group", whose antecedent is "friends"
17:55:13 <Taneb> Where would I put it
17:55:23 <coppro> boily: and actually, yes, I am a student politician. I try not to evade questions, though :)
17:55:25 <zzo38> In mine, PCs and NPCs are treated equivalently. To make a player character look up what kind of creature you want your character to be, look up the number of pseudolevels (there will always be a number, unlike D&D), select your classes and how many levels you want in each, skills, feats, back story, etc
17:55:41 <zzo38> So mine hasn't any "player races" section.
17:55:48 <Taneb> Can I just tack it to the end?
17:55:52 <boily> coppro: are you badlingual in both official languages?
17:55:59 <Taneb> "I've ended up going to bring a couple of friends along, who aren't in the group."
17:56:05 <boily> zzo38: so it's gurpsian, too.
17:56:19 <coppro> boily: I'm far from fluent French, but I can pass
17:56:34 <zzo38> boily: I don't know what that means. What similarities and differences do the ones you know of having?
17:56:37 <coppro> and by "pass", I mean "speak French at a fancy restaurant in Montreal without the waiter ever switching to English"
17:56:53 <coppro> boily: my accent is pretty good, though, unlike PMSH
17:58:57 <coppro> boily: I'm not sure if that qualifies as "badlingual"
18:00:05 <zzo38> I don't like D&D 4e. However, it is kind of a coincidence that my system eliminated many things in 4e and kept many things that 4e eliminated; this was before 4e was announced.
18:00:40 <zzo38> My system is a bit less combat oriented; the "Fighter" class is the only one meant for combat and the other classes do other things.
18:02:16 <Koen_> coppro: montreal waiters are too gentle
18:02:18 <boily> coppro: I was refering to our Dear Leader, Jean Chrétien :D
18:02:59 <zzo38> boily: What are your opinions of these things so far?
18:03:03 <boily> coppro: I ordered in Japanese at a Mtl restaurant once. it worked.
18:03:04 <Koen_> coppro: on the other hand, they're probably less gentle than french waiters. french waiters don't speak english, so they're guaranteed not to switch languages
18:03:39 <boily> zzo38: sounds very tempting and intriguing. the pc/npc non-split is something that isn't spread enough around systems, imo.
18:04:55 <boily> Koen_: French waiters are scarce around the city. almost all of our waiters (fmvo almost all) are bilingual.
18:05:02 <boily> (fmvo: for a mathematician's value of)
18:05:21 <zzo38> 3.5e has almost PC/NPC equivalence; I have made some variations to 3.5e, one of which improves the equivalence. However, they still use different formats. My system uses the same format too; all the kind of creatures in the game are in one area, and all have pseudolevels rather than using CR.
18:05:39 <Koen_> boily: no I meant a french waiter in france
18:05:43 <coppro> Koen_: too gentle in what sense?
18:05:54 <Koen_> in the not switching to your language sense
18:06:06 <coppro> ah. That's not really my experience
18:06:19 <Koen_> first bar I've stopped in in germany, I order in german, they waiter answers in english
18:06:37 <Koen_> and he overheard me talking with my friends in french, so when I continue in english HE SWITCHES TO FRENCH
18:06:44 <Koen_> I felt so insulted
18:06:44 <Vorpal> God dammit, Windows 7's built in backup tool is useless. It gives random crappy error messages
18:07:05 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:07:07 <Vorpal> Any suggestions for full disk backups for windows 7 that works?
18:07:11 <zzo38> Also, all experience points in my system are ad hoc, with the exception of spells and class features that cost experience points.
18:07:17 <coppro> Koen_: he didn't recognize your lovely Québecois accent, clearly
18:07:30 <coppro> zzo38: spells and class features that cost xp are dumb hth
18:07:31 <Koen_> I'm french from france
18:07:53 <zzo38> (Learning additional spells beyond the ones automatically earned at level up costs experience points.)
18:08:06 <zzo38> coppro: I don't really agree; I think it can be good idea.
18:09:59 <boily> Vorpal: yes. that was one of my internship projects. it works just fine!
18:10:23 <Vorpal> boily, also it would all need to work from that computer, be when I press a button rather than automated (due to dual booting) and to an external USB HDD
18:10:31 <Vorpal> boily, I thought it cost money for windows?
18:10:38 <boily> one of my gloriousest windows moments: destroying everything I can think of, and see if the backup can restore it.
18:10:50 <Vorpal> Or that is what I think I saw the list on wikipedia say when I read it
18:11:06 <boily> Vorpal: you can launch manual backups, external USB HDD is a nonissue, it's free.
18:11:25 <Vorpal> boily, it uses shadow copy on windows?
18:11:25 <boily> yeah. I testify that I did it.
18:11:36 <Vorpal> boily, because shadow copy is the part that is borking
18:11:49 <Vorpal> So that is no good then
18:12:07 <boily> so how do you backup open files, then?
18:12:32 <Vorpal> boily, good question, well I guess shadow copy might work if another program calls it that isn't super-broken
18:12:57 <boily> bacula is strangely not borken. it takes some time to configure properly, but when it's up, it's up.
18:13:10 <Vorpal> boily, Anyway, what about restore? Can it restore to a completely new disk and not need to reactivate windows? Like a dd clone
18:13:12 <zzo38> Maybe looking at my D&D game recording might also give you some kind of idea what kind of features I like in the game.
18:14:03 <Vorpal> boily, Hm, so I need to setup many daemons it seems? All can run on the windows computer?
18:14:03 <boily> Vorpal: it can. there may be a little bit of manual involvement if you're working on a particularly screwed up install (like doing partial regbase restores), but otherwise you just have to wait.
18:14:27 <boily> base de registre? what's it called in English again?
18:14:30 <Vorpal> boily, I mean total disk failure scenario where you have to buy a new disk
18:14:42 <boily> oh. no worries, then.
18:15:35 <Vorpal> uh the website for bacula claims it is *not* free for windows
18:15:48 <Vorpal> http://bacula.org/en/?page=winbin
18:15:56 <Koen_> thedeco: so do you have any other questions like that one?
18:16:13 <boily> Vorpal: oh. that changed since 2008.
18:16:24 <Vorpal> boily, well then, any free suggestion?
18:17:19 <boily> Vorpal: seeing that I have trouble remembering what happened yesterday, delving to the Depths of Five Years Ago is going to be hard.
18:17:43 <boily> if you can backup from a linux CD, well...
18:18:06 <Vorpal> boily, I can easily back up from Linux, but I want incremental backups, not full blown dd images with no history
18:18:07 <boily> otherwise, je sèche. I kinda lost touch with the backup scene.
18:18:13 <Vorpal> I use rdiff-backup on Linux
18:18:46 <boily> Vorpal: I think the only reliable sources for that cost money. or, you could also compile bacula on windows, if you feel masöchistic enough.
18:19:18 <zzo38> I also retain the Profession skills, something which 4e eliminates. However, I also added tactical skills. I retained skill ranks and eliminated class/cross-class skills. You learn skill regardless of your class, although different classes have different number of skill points to spend.
18:19:19 <Vorpal> I do have VS2010 Ultimate around though
18:20:20 <boily> zzo38: skills are a prerequisite. the cleanest system I have ever seen comes from Fudge, but sadly I never had the chance to play it.
18:20:43 * boily shrugs at Vorpal. “anything goes!”
18:20:46 <Vorpal> boily, Time Machine, that is backup done right
18:20:48 <zzo38> I have one class "Expert" which has a highest number of skill points but not other features.
18:20:52 <Vorpal> Wish it wasn't apple only
18:21:05 <boily> Vorpal: with a shiny nas. simple, efficient, effortless.
18:21:11 <zzo38> The other two classes are "Divine" and "Arcane".
18:21:14 <Vorpal> boily, time machine + nas? Hm
18:21:35 <Vorpal> boily, the issue with a NAS is what happens if there is a lightning strike. Likely it will knock out any connected electronics
18:22:19 <boily> Vorpal: use your own power grid? harness the lightning for your arcane invocations? I dunno. lightning strikes all, and makes no difference.
18:22:34 <Vorpal> boily, it ignores off site backups :P
18:22:50 <boily> well, have a NAS on another continent :P
18:22:58 <Vorpal> yay, and I have ADSL...
18:23:08 <boily> can't be worse than tape backup.
18:23:12 <fizzie> Possible business plan: data storage on the moon?
18:23:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, it would survive a major meteor impact certainly
18:23:53 <fizzie> Getting at it after the collapse of civilization here might be an issue.
18:24:29 <boily> who cares about civilization? you have backups!
18:24:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:25:10 <Vorpal> Anyway I assume Time Machine keeps some sort of index over changed files all the time since it is so darn fast at doing a backup
18:26:50 <zzo38> One feature of my system is that a high level arcane caster who wants to have a lot of options will need to have a lot of strength, unless they spend most of their feats on mastering a lot of spells, or store their books at home and take the ones they need, or get someone else to carry their books for them, or whatever.
18:27:05 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
18:27:31 <boily> zzo38: as long as you maintain CCIH, everything is good.
18:27:40 <boily> (Character Creation Induced Headaches)
18:29:09 <zzo38> What are character creation induced headaches? Can you give some example please?
18:30:32 <boily> “should I put that point here, or there? or ditch that skill, hope to acquire it later during the campaign? but then if I don't have enough of that, the RP will get *weird*. and the DM's being a %#*%$ lately, so no chance of getting that around... AAAAAAAURGH!”
18:30:37 <boily> or something similar.
18:31:41 <zzo38> You would have such things, I suppose.
18:33:20 <zzo38> You can see my D&D games stuff (and possibly other stuff I wrote) for my kind of style. Spells needing to be used in creatively newly made up combinations is part of my style.
18:33:36 <zzo38> Monster characters is, too.
18:34:25 <zzo38> Using mundane techniques to defect magical ones can also help sometimes, to retain your spell slots/power points, so that they can be used later on, or just to not use magic too much in general.
18:36:14 <boily> as long as you can do stupid actions with awesome side-effects, I'm in.
18:36:49 <zzo38> Yes, you can, that is part of idea of my system; spells are used for their side-effects!
18:37:14 <zzo38> I have used spells for the sole reason that they expire.
18:37:28 <zzo38> Or because of their material components.
18:38:01 <zzo38> Or because of the limitation on the kind of targets it can target.
18:38:49 <zzo38> In Pokemon card, I have once played an evolution card for the sole purpose of increasing its retreat cost.
18:40:31 <zzo38> boily: Did you see my D&D game recordings? If you want to be notified of updates, subscribe to messages starting with "`danddreclist" or make the program notify you.
18:41:05 <HackEgo> danddreclist: shachaf nooodl
18:41:15 <boily> hm. how do I add myself?
18:41:28 <zzo38> Ask someone else about HackEgo if you want to add your name to the response.
18:41:32 <boily> zzo38: I think I did see them.
18:41:52 <boily> Gregor: GREGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR! can you dand me please? :D
18:42:08 <zzo38> (I don't actually know how, myself. However, better is subscribing to messages starting with "`danddreclist", probably)
18:42:31 <zzo38> (Note: When it is updated, I am always the sender and the session number will be added after "`danddreclist")
18:42:36 <boily> that reminds me that last Saturday I shouted the loudest «KAYAK» I ever heard, in front of about a hundred people. that was nice.
18:42:50 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ nooodl
18:43:08 <boily> I guess this settles the matter.
18:43:22 <nooodl> `run echo boily >> bin/danddreclist
18:43:28 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
18:43:35 <HackEgo> danddreclist: shachaf nooodl boily
18:43:42 <boily> (weechat probably can subscribe and/or whatever to messages, but I can't be arsed to figure out how.)
18:43:44 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
18:43:55 <boily> ah! I have that one.
18:44:21 <zzo38> boily: OK. The latest session is 40, though.
18:45:51 <boily> oh, and while you're there, care to provide your body weigh, please?
18:47:19 <nooodl> `run sed -i bin/danddreclist 's|exit|echo http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex; exit|'
18:47:21 <HackEgo> sed: can't find label for jump to `in/danddreclist'
18:47:37 <boily> nooodl: I already have yours.
18:47:38 <nooodl> oh what did i even expect
18:47:58 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's|exit|echo http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex; exit|' < bin/danddreclist
18:48:13 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's|exit|echo http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex; exit|' bin/danddreclist
18:48:24 <HackEgo> danddreclist: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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18:51:15 <metasepia> Your divination: "Dispersing" to "Enveloping"
18:51:25 <metasepia> CYUL 271800Z VRB02KT 12SM OVC025 24/20 A2989 RMK SC8 SLP123 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
18:51:58 <boily> according to my tools, I won't need any raincoat tonight.
18:55:48 <olsner> if you don't bring the raincoat it will rain
18:58:50 <zzo38> And even if you do bring, it might rain, but it might not.
19:05:23 -!- thedeco has left.
19:05:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:08:07 <boily> there is some BR starting at 10pm, with probabilities of FG at 2am, but no rain until at least 3pm tomorrow.
19:09:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:09:15 <metasepia> CYVR 271900Z 13012KT 20SM SCT030 OVC150 21/14 A2992 RMK CU4AC4 SLP130 DENSITY ALT 700FT
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19:10:05 <olsner> what does BR stand for? is it a french abbreviation or something
19:10:39 <boily> olsner: there are a bunch of arbitrary French abbreviations in metars.
19:11:13 <boily> BR stands for «brume» (Swedish dimma).
19:12:18 <olsner> brume is not Swedish for dimma, 'dimma' is
19:13:17 -!- Koen_ has joined.
19:14:03 <olsner> From Old French, from Latin brūma (“winter”). Apparently.
19:18:04 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 24m 25s ago: Veien å gå med den sleipe curveball, du djevel.
19:18:52 <oerjan> boily: it's usually more idiomatic with "din djevel", also "den sleipe curveball" sounds like a hybrid with danish
19:19:16 <boily> not my problem. blame the google for that.
19:19:34 <oerjan> oh and "Veien å gå" does _not_ translate "Way to go".
19:20:42 <kmc> vendémiaire, brumaire, frimaire, nivôse, pluviôse, ventôse, germinal, floréal, prairial, messidor, thermidor, fructidor
19:21:12 <boily> m'a dire comme on dit, it's been a while.
19:21:20 <oerjan> i think those are the french revolutionary months
19:21:24 <boily> kmc: why the revolutionary feelings today?
19:21:41 <kmc> oh just "brume"
19:22:34 <boily> incidentally, germinal is one of the greatest French novels.
19:22:47 -!- itsy has joined.
19:22:49 <kmc> many novels have that feature
19:22:58 <kmc> what was the last novel you read where nobody dies?
19:23:06 <zzo38> And that doesn't make it good or bad
19:23:29 <zzo38> But there are some stories where nobody dies
19:24:07 <boily> kmc: eeeeeeh......... I'm sure I have one somewhere........
19:26:17 <itsy> I read "The Saxonbury Printout" a few weeks ago. No-one dies, but it's about a computer possessed by a ghost. Does that count?
19:29:31 <boily> what if the same character dies multiple times? does that cancel out death?
19:29:42 <kmc> no i think it counts
19:33:06 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game, now it is recorded to make up like a story novel book, people die a lot, mainly because they get in everyone's way and do bad things a lot. I want to figure out exactly how common, so I will make a list, only including people killed directly or indirectly by player characters.
19:34:16 <zzo38> I can also list who isn't killed, just because I want to make up a list.
19:37:50 <Vorpal> zzo38, I have a friend who created his own role playing system. I will be playing that tomorrow evening
19:37:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: What system is that?
19:38:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, his own as I said
19:38:25 <zzo38> Do you know any details?
19:38:51 <Vorpal> zzo38, I have not studied it in detail yet, though I have a draft for the manual (in Swedish)
19:39:52 <Vorpal> Mostly studied the setting which he created (post-apocalyptic, after ice age of some unknown/mysterious origin, set in central Europe)
19:41:05 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:41:11 <oerjan> <Roujo> I should learn Haskell, I guess =P <-- yeah you won't fit in properly here otherwise.
19:41:53 <zzo38> Do you have any details about the setting, then?
19:41:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, from what I saw it was not D&D-style at all. Classless system for example. Not using hitpoints, but wound levels and such
19:42:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, I gave you some overview above, I need to sleep now and don't have time to translate it all
19:43:41 <oerjan> <Roujo> That sentence... hurts =P <-- i think it's inspired by Borat or something?
19:44:01 <kmc> zzo38: have any player characters been killed?
19:44:09 <boily> oerjan: wasn't it a zoolander reference?
19:44:27 <boily> zzo38: how many litres of blood splattered yet?
19:44:37 <oerjan> boily: what's zoolander?
19:44:45 <olsner> what was the sentence?
19:44:46 <zzo38> boily: I haven't measured that.
19:44:59 <kmc> "More than 1000 different errors detected. I'm not reporting any more. Final error counts will be inaccurate. Go fix your program!"
19:45:03 <boily> oerjan: a comedy with ben stiller. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoolander
19:45:33 <zzo38> But in some cases there is no blood splattered, for example if someone drowns or whatever.
19:45:57 <oerjan> boily: well i don't know if "learn you * for great good" showed up there.
19:46:00 <kmc> He seized power in a bloodless coup...all stranglings
19:46:29 <boily> boring. I like myself some sharks. they have standing. they have class. they have teeth.
19:46:45 <kmc> shark has personality
19:46:47 <kmc> personality goes a long way
19:46:54 <kmc> Vorpal: yep
19:47:02 <oerjan> oh well googling "for great good" gives mostly haskell hits, although maybe it's just google knowing what i read.
19:47:21 <zzo38> kmc: No player characters have been killed (yet).
19:47:29 <Vorpal> kmc, iirc I got that when I tried to run it on a program using python as an embedded scripting language
19:48:26 <kmc> 'night Vorpal
19:49:45 <zzo38> I play carefully so that I don't get killed unless it is really necessary.
19:50:13 <oerjan> <boily> that's our local version of china. Local China → L-Chine → Lachine. <-- huh it apparently _is_ named for china, although for ridiculous reasons
19:50:47 <boily> Vorpal: bonne nuit!
19:51:27 <boily> oerjan: and there I was pulling a neighbourhood out of my fungotial regions... tmyk...
19:51:28 <fungot> boily: banq. looke to that anon, embrace thy brother there, reioyce with him. and now lord protector, so it be wholesome food.
19:51:32 <oerjan> <olsner> what was the sentence? <-- well _i_ thought he was referring to "learn you a haskell for great good"
19:52:37 <boily> zzo38: I once found myself naked in the grass with an arm missing in a game of paranoia.
19:53:41 <olsner> hmm, "for great good" sounds like some kind of engrish
19:54:01 <zzo38> boily: Did you fix the arm?
19:54:44 <oerjan> i guess he got the arm fixed and then got terminated for failing to pay for the operation
19:55:08 <boily> something like that. I found out that the arm was deeply embedded in a wall...
19:55:38 <oerjan> your arm was a wall banger
19:55:51 <boily> .........................................oerjan...............
19:57:40 <Roujo> Where's pacman when you need him?
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20:00:15 <zzo38> In this Dungeons&Dragons game we have to beat a demon and they moved to another castle and we found them again, but we can't beat them right away just like that, like how in chess you cannot play 1. Kxe8# on your first turn and win.
20:00:43 <boily> zzo38: do you have a shōgi analogue for that?
20:01:01 <zzo38> boily: It is obvious I suppose.
20:02:03 <zzo38> Do you know chess notation?
20:02:28 <zzo38> Kxe8# is probably possible but certainly not as the first move in the game!
20:03:20 <olsner> if it means you win, I assume it either captures the king or produces check mate?
20:03:27 <boily> I don't know chess notation, I only learned the shōgi one.
20:04:08 <oerjan> capturing the king is not allowed.
20:04:36 <olsner> oerjan: yeah, I just realized that, that's pretty weird really
20:04:48 <olsner> I always thought the objective of chess was to capture the king
20:05:02 <oerjan> or to be precise, if you're in a situation where it seems like you could, someone did an illegal move or lost already.
20:06:10 <oerjan> because if you have no move that doesn't leave your king in check, the game is over.
20:06:33 <zzo38> The # means checkmate.
20:07:12 <Roujo> The + means check, mate
20:08:23 <oerjan> olsner: my assumption is back in the day when chess was invented, the idea of killing monarchs was so heavily frowned upon that it was not considered civilized even in a game.
20:08:49 <oerjan> and so they ended the game one move earlier.
20:09:12 <Roujo> oerjan: Two moves, really
20:09:34 <boily> I'm not opposed to sampling a good monarch steak...
20:09:55 <olsner> in go they have some similar thing where it's considered rude to keep playing when it should be obvious who will win
20:10:53 <oerjan> boily: well google shows up several monarch steak houses, so you go ahead
20:11:04 <kmc> meth chess?
20:11:27 <boily> Roujo: today you go home by not bus?
20:11:37 <Roujo> boily: Yup. My not bus is parked outside
20:11:46 <olsner> (which annoys me greatly because the rules about who wins seem fuzzy as hell, even if you assume you actually finish the whole game)
20:12:19 <boily> olsner: players end the game when every territory is clearly defined, and surrounded by a single player.
20:12:37 <zzo38> Yes I agree that the end condition of go isn't clear enough.
20:13:06 <olsner> boily: now all you need is a clear definition of territory?
20:13:34 <boily> olsner: territory is clear. there's a single colour around it, with potential spots of dead stones from the other player.
20:13:44 <oerjan> olsner: well i think it's similar in chess, if it's obvious who will win then the loser should politely resign.
20:14:14 <zzo38> oerjan: But it isn't always as obvious as it seems to be.
20:14:55 <oerjan> true, but it's the loser's judgement.
20:15:12 <boily> it is obvious! don't make me invoke the moving pineapples!
20:17:02 <boily> gringmuth notation for transmitting chess moves over radio and telegraph.
20:17:59 <olsner> gringmuth moving pineapple notation?
20:19:52 <boily> `learn chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
20:20:46 <oerjan> `run sed -i s/./C/ wisdom/chess
20:20:56 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
20:21:27 <oerjan> btw `learn will automatically lowercase the filename.
20:23:15 * oerjan suddenly wonders if bananas could mean pineapples in swahili
20:26:15 <boily> maNdizi. probably.
20:27:03 <oerjan> mananasi is pineapple but i'm not sure if google is right about the plural being the same
20:27:31 <boily> yeah. according to wikipedia, there are different prefixes (in fact, different noun classes) for plurals.
20:28:07 <oerjan> yes so since bantu itself starts with ba i thought that might be for plurals
20:28:40 <oerjan> swahili doesn't use that
20:28:47 <oerjan> must be some other bantu language
20:30:35 <oerjan> hm i don't think google translation's list has any other bantu languages
20:31:43 <Bike> swahili was a trade language, surely it's atypical
20:32:08 <boily> google translate's armenian is only eastern, which is very annoying.
20:35:01 <nooodl> i've played some games of a chess "variant" with a friend where you don't ever announce check/checkmate, and are free to capture the king at any time and win
20:35:28 <nooodl> we were probably not the first to come up with it though!
20:35:39 <olsner> http://africanlanguages.com/swahili/ gives me singular nanasi and plural mananasi
20:35:41 <Bike> inattentive chess
20:37:29 <boily> olsner: so mananasi is class 6, and ndizi is 9/10.
20:44:43 <oerjan> hm i guess that means it's unlikely to be in the class 1 that many languages start with ba-
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20:45:23 <oerjan> um class 2 is the plural
20:46:13 -!- conehead has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:46:19 -!- conehead_ has changed nick to conehead.
20:46:35 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
20:46:49 <boily> what if a shark chomped your feet off?
20:46:52 <olsner> `learn Pineapple is a class 6 vegetable.
20:48:39 <Taneb> `learn Go is a programming language invented by Google, a game invented in East Asia, and a common verb in the English language, invented by Germanic tribes. Taneb invented all three.
20:49:04 <boily> oh, three new tanebventions!
20:49:56 <boily> chinese is weird. pineapple is written as 菠蘿, literally “spinach ivy”.
20:50:21 <oerjan> `learn Go is a common verbal programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in East Asia.
20:50:49 <Koen_> can you squeeze "strategic" or "territory" in there?
20:51:12 <oerjan> `learn Go is a common verbal programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the stratetig territories of East Asia.
20:51:21 <oerjan> `learn Go is a common verbal programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the stratetic territories of East Asia.
20:51:33 <boily> `learn Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
20:51:39 <Koen_> g is hard to spell isn't it
20:52:14 <Taneb> `learn Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
20:54:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
20:55:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:55:20 <Koen_> so I was thinking, implementing a breadth-first search in a tree with a queue feels kinda like emulating a recursive function with a stack (except you're using a queue instead of a stack). are there other algorithm that feel like that?
20:55:50 <Taneb> `learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go
20:55:58 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:57:30 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules and automatic squirrel feeders
20:57:59 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/tanebvention{s,}
20:58:45 <Koen_> A doubly linked list has O(1) insertion and deletion at both ends, so is a natural choice for queues.
20:58:45 <Koen_> A regular singly linked list only has efficient insertion and deletion at one end. However, a small modification—keeping a pointer to the last node in addition to the first one—will enable it to implement an efficient queue.
20:58:51 <Koen_> that's from wikipedia
20:59:34 <Koen_> how does adding links to the previous element make insertion and deletion any more efficient??
20:59:37 <elliott> oerjan: `learn should take s into account, presumably
20:59:51 <Gracenotes> I was more thinking, how do you maintain a pointer to the last node
21:00:03 <oerjan> elliott: that seems to have a lot of false positive opportunities
21:00:10 <kmc> are there any languages which have something akin to recursion but which operates in a queue-ish fashion?
21:00:23 <Koen_> Gracenotes: kinda like you maintain a pointer to the first node
21:00:25 <boily> Gracenotes: downloading a bz2 of your repo ends in a corrupted archive.
21:00:37 <boily> s/Gracenotes/Gregor/
21:00:53 <Koen_> Gracenotes: also you could use a circular buffer - ie having the last element point to the first element - this way you only need one pointer, to the last element
21:01:03 <olsner> Gracenotes: by greasing and cleaning it regularly?
21:01:14 <Gracenotes> well, I see, the direction of the queue is opposite the direction of the pointers.
21:01:32 <Bike> http://whois.domaintools.com/twitter.com hackers gettin cute
21:01:50 <Koen_> that's because in order to "remove the first element" you need to get a pointer to the second element
21:02:03 <kmc> Gracenotes: ah
21:02:17 <kmc> i know about the thing that is like a PDA but with queues
21:02:18 <boily> Bike: where is the cuteness?
21:02:19 <kmc> is that what you mean
21:02:34 <Bike> that's the syrian electronic army
21:03:26 <Gracenotes> a queue automaton is Turing-complete and has a state machine that peeks and then potentially pops/pushes depending on state
21:03:29 <boily> Gregor: the zip download works. doing an ls on the wisdom folder is... uhm.. well... postmodern.
21:03:37 <kmc> 1355 Market Street, Twitterloin
21:03:45 <elliott> Bike: how come they're so good at it
21:03:59 <Gracenotes> the setup is pretty much the same as PDAs, yeah. It's Turing-complete even when it's deterministic, as well.
21:04:06 <Koen_> A queue machine or queue automaton is a finite state machine with the ability to store and retrieve data from an infinite-memory queue. It is a model of computation equivalent to a Turing machine, and therefore it can process any formal language.
21:04:09 <Bike> elliott: http://nytimes.com/ it is a mystery
21:04:15 <Koen_> we don't have that article on esolangs.org
21:04:23 <elliott> Bike: is that meant to be anything other than down?
21:04:30 <Bike> http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18yc7iz4dyj3ypng/ku-bigpic.png hacked by chinese, though
21:04:43 <elliott> it was just an error page for me
21:04:55 <Bike> yeah it's down for me too, the message was brief
21:05:02 <elliott> I dunno, they just seem kind of unreasonably competent
21:05:09 <boily> I think I know why the bz2 archive choked. who is the fungot of a fungot who made infinitely recursive folders in wisdom?
21:05:10 <fungot> boily: clo. what is loue, tis not heereafter, present mirth, hath present laughter: what's to do? shall we go? titania. i pray you
21:05:15 <elliott> for a group that hacks the onion's twitter and posts meme images about obama
21:05:38 <boily> «~/temp/hackbot-filesystem-0b2ecb62f0f9/wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d...»
21:05:43 <Bike> well they've splintered a few times
21:05:45 <elliott> One commentator notes that "[SEA] volunteers might include Syrian diaspora; some of their hacks have used colloquial English and reddit memes. After Washington Post reporter Max Fisher called their jokes unfunny, one hacker associated with the group told a Vice interview “haters gonna hate.”"[10][11]
21:06:22 <Bike> might explain why they're so friggin pro-assad
21:07:18 <oerjan> Koen_: seems related to tag systems (and thus BCT)
21:07:29 <Koen_> I made a clever password the other day I was sure I would remember it
21:07:34 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: according to evidence, you are the most likely perpetrator of that FS violation.
21:07:53 <elliott> Koen_: did you write it? no copying from wikipedia or such on esolang for licensing reasons
21:08:15 <Koen_> elliott: I was planning on copying from esolangs.org's push-down automata page
21:08:27 <Bike> "Syria chemical weapons use reports are pre-planned provocation - Russian Foreign Ministry" yeah sick of reading this already
21:08:31 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
21:08:34 <Koen_> and then adding {stub} at the bottom
21:08:41 <boily> `run ls -l wisdom/d
21:08:42 <HackEgo> total 4 \ drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Jun 20 19:19 d \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Jul 31 20:45 da
21:09:56 <Bike> what's going on exactly
21:10:35 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom/d; find
21:10:36 <HackEgo> . \ ./d \ ./d/d \ ./d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ ./d/d/d
21:10:52 <boily> that thing is ODIOUS.
21:11:07 * boily smacks Phantom_Hoover with Bike
21:11:26 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: no idea, but you create corrupted unrecoverable bz2 archives.
21:12:05 <boily> can I be voiced? I want to oppress Phantom_Hoover.
21:12:30 <Koen_> oh, the bonus question in our exam was to recover a file from a corrupted archive
21:13:06 <boily> (now that I have a local wisdomcopy, time to latexify the whole thing...)
21:13:34 <Bike> so i gather this isn't a symlink loop somehow?
21:13:51 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v boily.
21:14:09 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Jul 31 20:45 wisdom/d
21:14:13 <olsner> `run ls -ld wisdom/d/d
21:14:14 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Jun 20 19:19 wisdom/d/d
21:14:23 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: FEEEEEEL THE OPPRESSION!
21:14:27 <Bike> how is that even possible
21:14:49 <Bike> i don't think you understand how oppression works!
21:15:10 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o HackEgo.
21:15:41 <Koen_> everybody take cover
21:15:55 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go
21:16:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:16:45 <boily> holy. fungot. of. doom. I promise to properly oppress only those who deserve it!
21:16:47 <fungot> boily: husband. god den, i thank you truly, la! ' nothing doubting' says he? alas, ha's banish'd me his bed already, his love too, who looses, yet ile preserve the honour of the forlorne french: him i forgiue my death, and death's dim look in life's mortality: each in her sleep themselves so beautify, as if that joy were now become a losse, cryes, oh, love's bow shoots buck and doe; the shaft confounds not that it wounds, but t
21:17:13 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: the First Evidence Against You: «ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼»
21:17:15 <olsner> `? d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:17:17 <HackEgo> d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d nothing
21:18:10 <boily> circumstantial shmircumstantial.
21:18:48 <Bike> `run ls -ld wisdom/d/d/d
21:18:50 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Jun 20 19:19 wisdom/d/d/d
21:19:22 <oerjan> boily: that was an entirely reasonable edit
21:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> you should be able to pin down exactly who created this madness
21:19:38 <Bike> ok back up here
21:19:43 <Bike> how is that pronounced
21:19:50 <Bike> i think that's the real issue here.
21:20:01 <Bike> don't give me your swedish shit here
21:20:16 <Bike> oughta be "hig" imo
21:20:19 <Bike> or "mercurial"...
21:20:29 <boily> I ain't no sedish salmiak there. as a proud Canadian, I resent that remark.
21:20:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:20:38 <oerjan> `run ls -l d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:20:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d: No such file or directory
21:20:55 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:20:57 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 72 Jun 20 19:22 wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:21:08 <Koen_> why so many subdirectories
21:21:08 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:21:10 <HackEgo> total 4 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 72 Jun 20 19:22 d
21:21:19 <Koen_> please tell me you didn't try cp -R . .
21:21:34 <Bike> what! that's so boring.
21:21:39 <Phantom_Hoover> `cat wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:21:41 <HackEgo> d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d nothing
21:22:21 <oerjan> well in that case, why does it corrupt the bz2 archive?
21:22:26 <boily> I have no reason left to oppress Phantom_Hoover... :(
21:22:51 <boily> oerjan: probably some boring reason. weird unicode stuff going on, I guess.
21:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/5c29355f719e/wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
21:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> wait no it was http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/21a5f1578f31
21:24:36 <boily> oh. in that case, I'll have to oppress the least levenshteined person to guestbot.
21:24:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh that's just the bug where the repository browser lists the latest commit to the whole repository instead of to just that file.
21:25:00 <boily> Guest18414: FEEL THE WRATH OF OPPRESSION‼
21:26:08 <Koen_> elliott: on the recent events that I can't get my freaking password, i'll let someone else make the page
21:27:03 <elliott> oerjan: looks like guestbot did it in /msg to hackego...
21:27:15 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-06-21#142222
21:27:23 <elliott> and then I scared it away or something >_>
21:30:11 <oerjan> let's just make Koen_'s password hunter2 and get it away with.
21:31:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v myndzi.
21:31:53 <ion> Earl Grey Flavored Black Tea. How do they know what Mr. Grey tasted like?
21:31:53 <Bike> problem solved.
21:32:07 <Bike> oh, you mean because of teh "<>" thing.
21:32:11 <olsner> ion: tested like tea, obviously
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21:41:52 <oerjan> elliott: um myndzi looks properly aligned to me. and he did fix some alignment issues the other day.
21:42:24 <elliott> oerjan: he was misaligned with HackEgo.
21:42:55 <oerjan> although he still isn't, so that's ok
21:43:17 <elliott> then you should /set show_nickmode_empty off :p
21:43:30 <Bike> "share my alignment issues"
21:44:24 <oerjan> what does that change and why would i want it.
21:44:47 <Bike> it makes "< elliott> into "<elliott>"
21:45:02 <Bike> you want it so that you can share with elliott your sadness at myndzi misalignment
21:45:03 <olsner> why does that have a setting?
21:45:21 <Koen_> please stop with the unmatched bracket
21:45:43 <oerjan> the mode is shown in its own column prior to the nicks
21:46:36 <oerjan> which looks really nice when there is no <
21:47:43 <Koen_> YOU CAN'T CLOSE A THREE WITHOUT OPENING AN EPSILON FIRST OKAY
21:48:30 <boily> oerjan: what makes you say so? I am not insane.
21:48:41 <oerjan> i am sorry you don't get the full tone of my responses because of the script stripping
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21:52:27 <metasepia> braid definition: to make from braids.
21:52:36 <HackEgo> Braid theory is the theory of braids.
21:52:51 <HackEgo> Category theory is the theory of categories.
21:52:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: Hexham/Helsinki/Lachine axis | 22nd IOCCC: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric hth.
21:54:51 <oerjan> `learn Braid theory is the extremely twisted theory of braids.
21:55:21 <boily> oerjan: uhm. could you uh... not edit the wisdom DB for a while, please? I'm latexing it.
21:55:34 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/braid{,' theory'}
21:55:45 <HackEgo> Braid theory is the extremely twisted theory of braids.
21:55:53 <boily> or, I guess the worse that could happen is that my version'll become somewhat like the hitchiker's guide and be authoratively incorrect on the subject.
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21:56:34 <olsner> hmm, someone is handing out holey bibles and people are getting holes in their windows
21:56:41 <Roujo> HackEgo is op, please nerf
21:57:02 <boily> Roujo: behold the OP of the BOT.
21:57:21 <boily> okay, I have «a» and «b» covered.
21:58:17 <olsner> boily: you should make some kind of script for this so you can easily repeat your work when wisdom expands
21:59:39 <boily> I'd like to, but there are some entries that are unicodely creative, other that I have to hand edit because of my linter, and some that don't match their filename.
21:59:54 <boily> (btw, how did I get that nice linter bound with vim???)
22:02:02 <boily> also, some entries I nicely format, others I completely ignore cause I'm a lazy bitch, and stuff.
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22:10:37 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> Possible business plan: data storage on the moon? <fizzie> Getting at it after the collapse of civilization here might be an issue. <boily> who cares about civilization? you have backups!
22:10:41 <HackEgo> 1095) <fizzie> Possible business plan: data storage on the moon? <fizzie> Getting at it after the collapse of civilization here might be an issue. <boily> who cares about civilization? you have backups!
22:11:08 <oerjan> i have blatantly censored half-relevant but unfunny parts by Vorpal here.
22:12:11 <oerjan> it's the fashionable thing
22:13:50 <boily> oerjan: I approve of you oppressiveness.
22:20:23 <boily> «c» and «d» are covered. I'm hungry.
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22:22:16 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
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22:34:24 <olsner> `run echo In category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories. > wisdom/category\ theory
22:34:34 <HackEgo> In category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
22:35:07 <Koen_> that's just not helpful at all
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22:48:14 <Bike> good news for sgeos: the thing i have to use for class uses tcl scripting
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02:48:39 <zzo38> Do you find procedural SQL useful? I find a lot of things can be done in plain SQL, although a virtual table containing all numbers, and a few extra functions (square root, quartiles, blob access, execute a string containing SQL commands, etc), are good things to have on.
02:51:08 <zzo38> There are still a few additional features I would like to see in SQL, although I don't know if any of them are available in any variant of SQL.
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03:52:22 <Bike> https://mitpress.mit.edu/covers/9780262019538.jpg the animes..................
04:05:25 <shachaf> It seems that you meant mitpress.mst.edu. Do you want Adblock Plus to correct typos to protect you from malicious websites?
04:05:40 <shachaf> I didn't even know I had that installed.
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04:16:12 <Bike> man i used an https uri and everything :'(
04:16:53 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1l7baq/creating_a_user_from_the_web_problem/ r/PHP is a terrifying place
04:17:32 <Bike> "I also added http to group wheel."
04:33:20 <coppro> /r/lolphp is pretty sweet
04:33:30 <coppro> although that particular quote really scares me
04:33:36 <coppro> zzo38: procedural SQL is okay
04:33:50 <coppro> having written a lot in it, I'd avoid it where possible
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04:43:12 <zzo38> coppro: OK, I suppose; well, I also avoid procedural SQL, since I use SQLite which doesn't support procedural SQL, and I find procedural SQL doesn't help anything anyways since it can be programmed in plain SQL.
04:45:13 <coppro> the advantage to procedural SQL is the ability to create functions inside the database which are used by multiple clients in different languages, and so reduce duplication
04:45:27 <coppro> in practice, this is a good idea only where you can't do something saner, like write an interface layer in some other language
04:48:16 <zzo38> I do not understand exactly what you mean. I tend to write most of the program in SQL, when using SQL.
04:48:55 <zzo38> I will write any extra functions I need into a .dll so that it can be loaded using anything.
04:49:23 <zzo38> But these extra functions are mainly stuff useful in a lot of uses anyways, such as square root, and a virtual table containing all integers.
04:51:19 <zzo38> There are some features I would like to see added, though, such as macros, overridable views and triggers, trigger indices, ordered triggers, table cells that contain databases, and a few others.
04:58:51 <zzo38> I found that triggers seem to run in the reverse order of being defined. I find this a very useful feature. However, I asked someone and they said the order isn't supposed to be guaranteed.
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06:46:22 <Gracenotes> for posterity: shell_exec("sudo useradd -p $encpass -g groupname -s /bin/bash $username");
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07:17:56 <shachaf> kmc: it would be nice to be able to clear the buffer of keystrokes that haven't been sent yet in mosh
07:18:21 <shachaf> say i know a connection won't be re-established for hours but out of habit i press alt-a a bunch of time in irssi
07:18:47 <shachaf> now i either risk missing a notification or i have to close the mosh session before reconnecting to the network
07:18:59 <shachaf> (another solution to this problem would be fine too)
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07:22:28 <zzo38> I think some of the terminology in chess problems can be applied to Pokemon card puzzles as well.
07:22:54 <ion> shachaf: How about ignoring input when in the state that notifies about the lack of connectivity? I’d be happy with that.
07:23:18 <shachaf> That's not so great because sometimes my connection is just bad.
07:23:42 <shachaf> And I get into that state, but I want to keep typing.
07:24:01 <ion> In that case, perhaps also have a parameter that lets you increase the timeout before it thinks there’s no connectivity.
07:25:32 <ion> The comments are great. http://php.net/manual/en/function.serialize.php
07:27:42 <zzo38> See if you can make up a Pokemon card puzzle involving retreating four times in one turn, or even five, or six, if such a thing can be made.
07:37:53 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/1jfkrg/serialize_documentation_pick_your_favorite_comment/cbe5quf
07:55:57 <zzo38> We can make up some list of terminology for Pokemon card puzzles, some of which is similar to that of chess, but there are differences so some new terminology would be used too (also, not all chess terminology is applicable).
08:00:23 <zzo38> Why is "Scholar's Mate" given that name?
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08:15:01 <kmc> shachaf: yeah I opened a ticket about that a while ago
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09:19:04 <fizzie> Aw, I missed a somewhat interesting talk this morning.
09:19:27 <kmc> what about?
09:19:43 <fizzie> "This keynote talk focuses on signal processing techniques for modeling analog audio systems used in music technology. Many analog music systems produce a distinctive and desirable sound, but the original devices may be expensive or hard to access and maintain. Examples include classic synthesizer modules and vintage guitar amplifiers."
09:20:59 <fizzie> "An overview of recent research in the area of virtual analog modeling will be presented. Topics include antialiasing oscillator algorithms, virtual analog synthesizer filters, modeling of guitar pickups, spring reverberation units, ring modulators, carbon microphones, and audio antiquing."
09:21:04 <fizzie> I'm no music person, but for some reason listening to other people talk about this stuff has generally been interesting.
09:22:20 <fizzie> (It's going to be a keynote at DAFx-13; the person giving it works here and apparently had a rehearsal this morning, but keeping up-to-date on email is for squares.)
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10:59:02 <Koen__> I can't get a new password emailed to me because I already did in the last 24 hours
10:59:08 <Koen__> but I never received that new password
11:00:13 <Koen__> I already had a new password sent to me on the 24th, but it's no longer working because I was asked to change it the first time I tried to log in with it
11:00:38 <Koen__> and I can't remember what I changed it to (but that probably doesn't matter, since I'm supposed to have been sent a new one)
11:01:48 <oerjan> i think after all that, it's your karma to have to wait 24 hours, Koen__
11:02:11 <oerjan> i know, it's a truly gruesome punishment.
11:02:25 <Koen__> wow, I just noticed I had two underscores
11:02:42 <Koen__> this is getting out of hand
11:03:04 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/phantom*
11:03:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/phantom_hoover \ wisdom/phantom__hoover \ wisdom/phantom___hoover \ wisdom/phantom_______hoover \ wisdom/phantom__________hoover \ wisdom/phantom____________________hoover
11:03:43 <oerjan> i suddently remember that technically listing them all is a bit of cheating
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11:20:28 <Deewiant> I finally tried mosh just for fun and its locale-related error message was quite incorrect: it complained about LC_CTYPE and said something about US-ASCII, though the issue was that my LC_NUMERIC didn't exist on the server
11:21:11 <Deewiant> (After fixing that I was reminded of the fact that this WLAN completely blocks UDP so the experiment ended)
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12:10:03 <oerjan> something is wrong, the second image in the latest xkcd whatif has no title text
12:10:35 <oerjan> there's those pesky g's running around again
12:11:13 <oerjan> given the image, i suppose the title text was censored by the government
12:15:25 <fizzie> oerjan: I was thinking it was a conspiracy-theory joke.
12:15:49 <fizzie> I'm sure xkcd forums have already some speculation as to why it might be.
12:16:22 <oerjan> no, it's definitely the real government censoring this.
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12:30:57 <oerjan> fizzie: "There's an image without title text? THE END IS NEAR!!! AHHHH!!!"
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12:50:02 <oerjan> does anyone know where the picture characters here are from http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=1561
12:51:36 <oerjan> i'm imagining it could be a game or another comic, but googling on what little (non-garfield) text hints there are didn't help.
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13:03:18 <boily> good brumeux morning!
13:17:00 <fizzie> oerjan: The dude on the left looks vaguely familiar, but I don't know from where; Google's "visually similar images" search is, as usual, of no use at all: http://goo.gl/Ydb6C2 (link might not work, I don't know how it does w.r.t. uploaded images)
13:22:33 <boily> `run echo "Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants." >wisdom/eridanipoid
13:23:39 <boily> mnoqy: since when are you this channel's centroïd? it hasn't been computed yet!
13:24:36 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
13:25:02 <oerjan> `run echo -n " They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects." >>wisdom/eridanipoid
13:25:29 <HackEgo> Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. \ They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
13:25:49 <boily> no transmogrifying the Wisdom DB while I'm latexifying it!
13:26:32 <mnoqy> boily: apparently ever since (counts on fingers) 2013 april 20, when shachaf deduced it and you added the wisdom db entry
13:27:10 <boily> oerjan: just wait, you miscreant! I'll [REDACTED] the [EXPUNGED] out of your [FUNGOT] you'll feel it all the way up to your grandma's teeth!
13:27:37 <boily> mnoqy: oh. uhm. quite embarassing, isn't it?
13:27:38 <oerjan> `run fmt -w400 <wisdom/eridanipoid >q; mv q wisdom/eridanipoid
13:27:48 <HackEgo> Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. \ They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
13:28:01 <oerjan> that's not a reformatting ;_;
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13:30:28 <metasepia> Software description: coroutine based python library that uses only built-in python features to provide a low-level event driven programming model (Python).
13:31:55 <oerjan> `run perl -i -e 'my $a = join "", <>; $a =~ s/\n//g; print $a' wisdom/eridanipoid
13:31:59 <HackEgo> Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
13:33:29 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'my $a = join "", <>; $a =~ s/\n//g; print $a' wisdom/eridanipoid >q; mv q wisdom/eridanipoid
13:33:37 <HackEgo> Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
13:34:45 <boily> meanwhile, I identify "Perkeleistä", but the rest is finnishdigook.
13:36:42 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/form dense/occur in dense/' wisdom/eridanipoid
13:37:23 <oerjan> hm wait that's ambiguous
13:39:14 <boily> so eridanipoïds are dense remnants that move, don't move, are in space, clustered, and can't be categorified.
13:39:51 <oerjan> also move and don't move are equivalent by relativity
13:40:33 <boily> indeed. my understanding of physics never was up to par...
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13:40:51 <boily> (I never flunked as many exams as in physics classes.)
13:41:13 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
13:41:23 <metasepia> CYUL 281332Z 22002KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC003 21/21 A2991 RMK ST8 SLP127 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:41:56 <boily> Roujo: cf. «good brumeux morning» from earlier today.
13:42:11 <boily> urgh. 21/21. that is most disgusting.
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13:44:32 <Roujo> (I don't actually know)
13:45:19 <boily> it means humidity can't get higher without us having to swim through the air when going out for a lunch.
13:46:29 <Roujo> I'd be up for a swim
13:47:01 <Roujo> So, that's the dew point?
13:48:17 <boily> ("so so so, so-li-da-ri-té!")
13:49:10 <Roujo> Station Time WindSpeed Visibility Weather Ceilling DewPoint something something something
13:50:46 <fizzie> The existing fields (though not their order, perhaps) seems to vary quite a lot.
13:50:50 <metasepia> EFHK 281320Z 17010KT 9999 FEW038 21/13 Q1015 NOSIG
13:51:22 <boily> fizzie: it depends on the national standard, and wether the human ops (or automated station apparatuses) can be assed to give details.
13:52:31 <Roujo> No really, I need a tall coffee
13:52:46 <boily> Roujo: EFHK: helsinki. observation made at 13:20+0000 today. winds of 10 knots at 170°, ground visibility is irrelevant, a few clouds at 3800', temperature 21 °C with dew point at 13 °C, QNH at 101,5 kPa and nothing significant to write about.
13:53:11 <metasepia> EFHK 281320Z 17010KT 9999 FEW038 21/13 Q1015 NOSIG
13:53:46 <Roujo> I'm going to get the hang of it eventually =P
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14:05:53 <boily> «e» and «f» covered.
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14:20:45 <boily> go duck duck go, you can do it!
14:23:14 <metasepia> Tavros (, which means "bull"), is a sburb in the southwestern part of Athens, Greece.
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14:23:42 <boily> ~duck stavromula beta
14:24:06 <Roujo> Instructions to install Haskell
14:24:31 <boily> Roujo: http://www.haskell.org/platform/
14:24:42 <Roujo> - Download the Windows installer
14:24:43 <Roujo> - Run the setup.exe program
14:24:43 <Roujo> - Follow the install instructions as prompted.
14:24:58 <Roujo> I was just marvelling at the simplicity
14:25:47 <Roujo> It's so simple, and yet apparently warrants step-by-step instructions
14:25:57 <boily> «g» and «h» covered. I also conflagrated the gaszszszpachoes.
14:26:05 <Roujo> What are you doing? =P
14:26:05 <Jafet> Your instructions are to follow your given instructions
14:26:43 <boily> Roujo: I'm manually and lovingly enlatexifying the Wisdoms.
14:27:32 <Roujo> I am the local LaTeX evangelist at work
14:28:40 <boily> my SO is an Elite Legendary Paragon at LaTeX. she can summon .sty with her eyes closed.
14:29:39 <Roujo> I'm much of a newbie
14:29:47 <Roujo> I'm just the only one who Knows
14:30:49 <Roujo> Do I want to install GLUT?
14:31:05 <boily> you want to. glut is good for you and building muscles.
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14:37:46 <boily> 10 MB FOR A SINGLE ENTRY.
14:38:02 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
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14:44:13 <boily> `? irrelevant info
14:44:15 <HackEgo> KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
14:46:09 -!- heroux has joined.
14:47:19 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:54:18 <boily> what was I smoking when I wrote that...
14:54:23 <HackEgo> lexer is a maximally Norwegian painter. Its squares are munched with chili sauce.
14:54:49 <Roujo> Well, aren't they?
14:55:03 <Roujo> Also, "max 5 6 8" doesn't work for
14:55:29 <Roujo> Only two parameters, apparently
14:55:46 <boily> ~eval foldl1 max [5, 6, 8]
14:55:54 <metasepia> Perhaps you meant `lift' (imported from Control.Monad.Logic)
14:57:46 <Roujo> I'm starting to miss lisp =P
14:59:07 <boily> you could also go the foldMap way. monoids are easy. you won't miss Lisp and its brethren.
15:01:03 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
15:01:40 <boily> that reminds me I'll have to remove those «% TODO» sometime... anybody here who can do colours in LaTeX?
15:03:15 <boily> «i», «j», «k» and «l» covered.
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15:11:41 <doesthiswork> I just read some about semiotics, saussure seems fine, but what people have done since then is grotesque
15:12:22 <boily> I'm curious, who designed the wisdom face?
15:13:22 <boily> \newcommand{\face}{\={ }$\backslash(^\circ$\_o$)$/\={ }}
15:18:34 <boily> aaaaaaaan... I crashed firefox.
15:24:48 <doesthiswork> not too hard, if I don't crash it now and then I worry that something has gone wrong
15:28:57 <Bike> oh, that's easy to type
15:29:08 <Bike> ¯\(°_o)/¯, gonna have to remember that
15:29:30 -!- Bike has changed nick to a.
15:29:39 -!- a has changed nick to Bike.
15:29:48 <Bike> clever, myndzi, clever.
15:30:00 <boily> myndzi is a clever bot.
15:32:08 <Roujo> myndzi is Cleverbot?
15:32:23 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
15:33:05 <boily> btw, when will itidus come back?
15:34:26 <fizzie> > maximum [5, 6, 8] -- incidentally
15:34:58 <boily> fizzie: hoogle has no hits for "incidentally".
15:35:19 <fizzie> That was what's called a comment.
15:35:46 <Roujo> rem Back in my days...
15:35:46 <boily> move along. nobody saw nothing.
15:36:12 <fizzie> I recently saw a .bat file that was full of "rem ember this and that" documentation.
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15:38:12 <boily> ' Back in my days...
15:38:49 <Deewiant> comment In somebody else's days comment
15:43:15 <Deewiant> "Every card processed by SOAP II may contain remarks not exceeding 10 characters in length. When longer remarks are desired, a comments card, which may contain up to 30 characters, may be used."
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16:20:41 <Koen__> cards... as in the very olds cards with holes that were used before computers?
16:24:59 <Deewiant> Yes, this was from the documentation of the programming language used with an electro-technical information processing machine
16:25:35 <Bike> "electro-technical"?
16:26:51 <Bike> what's that mean
16:26:58 <Bike> i was expecting "electromechanical"
16:27:13 <Deewiant> It means an IBM 650 in this case
16:27:50 <Deewiant> (It's overly directly translated from https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensi )
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16:54:07 <Bike> «"Brazilian self-citation cartel" is possibly the world's lamest cartel»
16:58:25 <Roujo> "«"Brazilian self-citation cartel" is possibly the world's lamest cartel», said Bike", said Roujo
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17:26:21 * boily thwarps doesthiswork with a copy of GEB
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17:26:58 <boily> «“‘Roujo: don't you think that you are overquoting there?”»’
17:29:05 <doesthiswork> boily: there is no fundamental relation between how many words it says it has and how many it does have.
17:29:24 <Bike> is "less than" a fundamental relation
17:29:51 <zzo38> What is it called in chess when you refrain from capturing an opponent's piece because that piece is blocking another opponent's piece from moving?
17:30:51 <Bike> check yoset before you wreck...set
17:31:11 <boily> zzo38: a skewer, I think?
17:31:38 <zzo38> O, that's what it is called?
17:32:13 <boily> Bike: Tarkista yoset ennen hylky ... asettaa
17:32:17 <Bike> doesthiswork: does a sentence
17:32:41 <boily> does a sentence contains a sentence, or is it the sentence itself?
17:33:01 <zzo38> boily: No, I don't think a skewer is what I am talking about.
17:33:27 <boily> zzo38: I' currently on wikipédia's chess tactics, and indeed it is not a skewer.
17:35:33 <boily> zzo38: probably something related to interference, I guess.
17:36:29 <boily> I believe that kind of situation is more common in xiangqi, viz. the horses have special movement rules, so you can position your pieces in temporarily safe squares because the opponent's can't move there.
17:37:24 <boily> doesthiswork: but then, it is a quine of itself that contains the content of the quine in the quine, and not the sentence as a whole which only partially refers to the sentence in a quine.
17:39:06 <zzo38> boily: Yes, the movement of the horses in xiangqi can do that but does it have a name in xiangqi in general (not only to do with a horse)?
17:39:57 <Bike> least fixed point of "this sentence is false"
17:40:19 <doesthiswork> boily: I didn't say yes to the second question
17:41:38 <doesthiswork> the sentence "the sentence "this sentence contains six words" contains five words" is a sentence
17:41:57 <doesthiswork> but "this sentence contains six words" is also a sentence
17:42:02 <Bike> or is it.... quotation nesting errors
17:43:03 <doesthiswork> bike: you are perfectly able to see how the quotations nest, the spaces make it unambiguous
17:43:48 <Bike> «««»»«»«««»»«««««»»«»«»«»»»«««»»»
17:44:15 <boily> zzo38: if it has a name, I can't pronounce it :(
17:44:23 <zzo38> If you put "doesn't" it is still wrong
17:45:18 <boily> so we have a sentence A where A v ¬A is False.
17:46:05 <Bike> yeah, a classic (lol) resolution to "this sentence is false" is to assign a truth value of "neither true nor false"
17:46:25 <Bike> you can do like... "this sentence is not true" or something to break that though. too tired to remember exactly
17:46:47 <zzo38> I mean "this sentence doesn't contains six words"
17:47:09 <doesthiswork> or more reasonably adding "doesn't" doesn't perfectly correspond to negation
17:47:40 <zzo38> Yes, it doesn't perfectly correspond to negation.
17:48:26 <doesthiswork> but I'm pretty sure I can trick people into saying that it does, and then spring this sentence on them.
17:49:26 <boily> either we are abusing bots, or logic. we are become esoteric, destroyers of common sense and pineapples.
17:53:32 <olsner> boily: did you finish your tex wisdom?
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17:55:19 <boily> olsner: no, I was eating sushi.
17:55:59 <olsner> boily: how long have you been eating sushi?
17:56:10 <boily> eeeeh... half an hour, I guess?
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17:56:55 <olsner> ok, then I find it an invalid excuse
17:57:29 <boily> olsner: I know, but now I have nutrients in my body and can think of a better excuse!
17:57:48 <boily> last entry I did is «ngevd».
17:58:25 <olsner> you should implement that entry using a TeX PRNG
17:59:03 <boily> I'm scared of that kind of thing.
17:59:50 <boily> nah. I'm a publicly known coward.
18:00:10 <Bike> so, question. couldn't we just make wisdom/ngevd a symlink to /dev/urandom
18:01:43 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:02:29 <olsner> I think that might break if someone tries to fix it
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18:02:36 <olsner> there may also be a good reason, I dunno
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18:03:46 <metasepia> Roald Dahl (13 September 191623 November 1990) was a British novelist, short story writer, poet, fighter pilot and screenwriter.
18:05:09 <fizzie> Bike: It kept breaking when you wanted to do some operation over all wisdom/* files.
18:05:30 <fizzie> Or, rather, working around that one entry in all greps and whatnot was an annoy.
18:06:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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18:09:33 <Bike> fizzie: oh, lol.
18:09:33 <fizzie> I guess that's there for the guess-the-identity game?
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18:15:59 <boily> fizzie: looks like so, and impossible to guess correctly.
18:17:10 <fizzie> That was a boring thing to say.
18:17:24 <olsner> it's probably said a lot though
18:17:44 <fizzie> HackEgo: Was that you, yourself, by any chance?
18:18:05 <olsner> looks like randomanonlog has been used twice before today, by zzo38 on 2012-04-29
18:18:18 <Bike> this game is hard.
18:18:30 <boily> nn. just nn. how the fungot am I supposed to know who said that.
18:18:46 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling all right there?
18:18:46 <fungot> fizzie: behold, these are a side that would be known. thou canst not read
18:18:48 <fungot> olsner: falst. saue thy grace, leaue fnord your owne renowned knowledge, quite forgoe the way which brought vs hither
18:18:52 <Bike> man or random-an
18:19:25 * boily poke fungot “Oh, fungoooot ♪”
18:19:25 <fungot> boily: apemantus. right, i mean? servant. wholly, sir.
18:19:36 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:19:41 <olsner> is this style from text that mixes u and v?
18:20:00 <olsner> I wonder if vs/saue/leaue means us/save/leave
18:20:39 <fizzie> olsner: It's from some Project Gutenberg files, is about all I remember.
18:20:56 <fizzie> Possibly I should have a Document describing the history of each style. (But I don't.)
18:21:12 <Bike> documentation? sounds like wussy shit.
18:21:22 <zzo38> Do you know of a "59eye+1Mewtwo" deck in Pokemon card? (It has been given different names because different people figured it out independently, although so did I and this is the name I gave it.)
18:21:32 <olsner> fizzie: as long as you never leave we can just ask you
18:21:37 <Bike> one time a guy i know vandalized a userpage of mine with text of a random gutenberg book, and later neither of us could find it ever again
18:21:58 * boily arc-welds fizzie to the abstract substance of the chännel
18:22:36 <kmc> zzo38: what do these cards do? can you send me links?
18:23:09 <fizzie> fungot: You should write yourself a home page. Do you want an installation of FrontPage to do it with?
18:23:10 <fungot> fizzie: say. heare me deare lady, i shall
18:23:47 <fizzie> fungot: And stop calling me a lady.
18:23:48 <fungot> fizzie: du.sen. come, dearest madam. o, tis a boysterous and a cruell stile, a stile for challengers: why, look, thy foes are bound, to morrow
18:23:57 <fizzie> I don't think "madam" is much better.
18:25:07 <zzo38> kmc: They are the Mewtwo Lv.53 from the base set and basic energy cards.
18:26:11 <boily> fizzie: what are your rates? do you accept visa?
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18:28:30 <kmc> zzo38: How does this deck work?
18:29:00 <kmc> don't you need psy energy too?
18:29:02 -!- heroux has joined.
18:29:28 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, all the cards are psy energy.
18:29:53 <Bike> that's a valid deck?
18:30:26 <Bike> i have no idea how to pokemon.
18:31:36 <zzo38> MEWTWO [Lv.53] has E: { @ } HP: 6 W: { @ } R: - and two attacks, one costing { @* } causing number of energy attached to opponent's active pokemon +1, one costing { @@ } and discard an energy card attached to self, causing all effects of opponent's attacks on this card to fail next turn
18:32:04 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-23861397 "The aim of the experiment was to see what would happen if a microscopic sphere was spun as fast as was technically possible... They saw it spin faster and faster until it reached 600 million rpm - and then it seemed to vanish! The researchers don't know what happened to the sphere"
18:32:51 <olsner> boily: I think that's from the name of a book about norwegian health care
18:33:02 <Bike> "We may even be able to shed light on the area of quantum friction - that is does quantum mechanics put the brakes on the motion or spinning particle even though we are in a near perfect vacuum with no other apparent sources of friction?" wat
18:33:33 <zzo38> Bike: You need at least one card that can be played as a basic pokemon card, but the other fifty-nine cards can be anything.
18:34:24 <metasepia> eye definition: a specialized light-sensitive sensory structure of animals that in nearly all vertebrates, most arthropods, and some mollusks is the image-forming organ of sight; '''especially'''.
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18:36:32 <boily> that... bugs me. this «especially», I don't trust it.
18:36:58 <boily> up to «s» is covered!
18:37:02 <Bike> it's kind of cool how many things we call eyes even though they have no phylogenetic and very little morphological similarity
18:38:20 <boily> some plants have “eyes” that can detect light.
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18:38:28 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go
18:38:34 <boily> ah, I was missing the go part.
18:38:42 <doesthiswork> I thought the homiobox genes had a section for eye placement
18:38:46 <Bike> they do? i thought plant motion was just from chloroplast activity or somethin.
18:39:32 <boily> Bike: I need to find the concerned species, but yeah. a very small number of plants have what, with some stretching, you can call an eye.
18:40:15 <Bike> doesthiswork: i'm reasonably sure compound eyes and our eyes evolved independently. i don't think homeobox controls eye placement? maybe as part of controlling face
18:40:17 <zzo38> A 59eye+1Mewtwo deck can sometimes win but it can also often lose if opponent knows about it.
18:41:11 <Bike> i mean i'm thinking of like, clams that have a ring of eyes
18:41:31 <doesthiswork> bike: the focusing parts developed separately, but before that photosensitive patches of skin existed
18:41:46 <Bike> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9177348 hrm
18:42:01 <Bike> i've always heard that eyespots evolved multiple times
18:42:15 <Bike> maybe you're right and it's farther apart than between us and flies, though
18:42:36 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye#One_origin_or_many.3F hrm
18:42:52 <zzo38> Do you have enough eyes yet?
18:43:01 <Bike> i'm already hrm-ing!
18:43:15 <boily> seems like we missed a tanebvention along the way...
18:43:21 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
18:43:35 <boily> Taneb: how do you want it appended to the list?
18:43:44 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go
18:44:03 <doesthiswork> bike: Pax6 is a gene that controls eyes and is present in the common ancestor of most animals
18:44:18 <Taneb> `learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
18:44:24 <Bike> yes that's what the pubmed link was about
18:44:30 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go
18:44:42 <olsner> looks like learn doesn't handle case properly
18:45:07 <boily> `run cp wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebvention
18:45:17 <Bike> "PAX6 protein function is highly conserved across bilaterian species" hm
18:45:18 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
18:45:49 <doesthiswork> bike: it also controls photosensors in jellyfish
18:46:33 <doesthiswork> so the eyes developed separately but the photoreceptors had a common orgin
18:47:06 <Bike> guess i was wrong then
18:47:26 * boily headdesks at the sight of `? ursala...
18:47:38 <Bike> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14602077
18:48:12 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
18:48:41 <olsner> boily: imagine being able to read and make sense of that
18:49:12 <zzo38> It is often said that energy removal can defeat a 59eye+1Mewtwo deck, but actually that is not always the case. Once I played a 59eye+1Mewtwo deck against an opponent who had four ENERGY REMOVAL and four SUPER ENERGY REMOVAL (I knew this before starting), and managed to play all eight cards, and *I still won*.
18:49:31 <olsner> iirc, l and r get the left and right of a pair, t and h get the tail and head of a list
18:49:37 <Bike> what's a tutura
18:50:53 <metasepia> tuatara definition: a large spiny quadrupedal reptile ('''Sphenodon punctatum''') of islands off the coast of New Zealand that has a vestigial third eye in the middle of the forehead representing the pineal gland and that is the only surviving rhynchocephalian.
18:50:53 <Bike> spelling, enemy of all humankind
18:50:55 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
18:50:59 <metasepia> Software description: concise functional programming language (C).
18:51:07 <Bike> oh, the pineal gland lizards.
18:51:18 <boily> olsner: I think I'll verbatim it, and see what happens...
18:51:30 <boily> that, or usepackage lstlistings.
18:51:51 <olsner> btw it's not a complete program, just the incomprehensible bits
18:51:57 <zzo38> Is there a picture that shows all three eyes clearly?
18:52:01 <Bike> wait they have retinas and stuff :|
18:52:13 <Bike> zzo38: "The parietal eye is only visible in hatchlings, which have a translucent patch at the top centre of the skull."
18:53:28 <Bike> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frog_parietal_eye.JPG here's one in a frog
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19:10:20 <boily> I found a way to have ‼, but now it chokes on phở.
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19:22:15 <boily> Roujo: at least it wasn't bún bò huế ¬_¬'...
19:22:28 <Roujo> We take what we're given
19:22:59 <boily> «à phở donné, on ne regarde pas le bol,» or something like that.
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19:23:52 <boily> I used the classic babel/selectlanguage combo to wrap the entry, and now everything flows smoothly.
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19:38:49 <oerjan> darn you're talkative.
19:38:50 <boily> first pass over the Wisdoms: done!
19:39:11 <boily> oerjan: I had to whip out also CJKutf8 for `? wercome.
19:40:37 <boily> I'm missing 22 entries that I couldn't easily include (nasty unicode stuff, and or needs colourification).
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19:43:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wercome: not found
19:43:38 <HackEgo> wat: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
19:44:49 <oerjan> `run sed 's/welcome/wercome/g' bin/welcome > bin/wercome
19:45:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/wercome: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/wercome: cannot execute: Permission denied
19:45:13 <oerjan> `run chmod +x bin/wercome
19:45:20 <HackEgo> wat: now: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
19:50:00 <oerjan> <boily> «g» and «h» covered. I also conflagrated the gaszszszpachoes. <-- wat.
19:50:42 <lambdabot> *** "conflagrate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:50:42 <lambdabot> v 1: cause to start burning; "The setting sun kindled the sky
19:50:42 <lambdabot> with oranges and reds" [syn: {kindle}, {enkindle},
19:51:07 <oerjan> boily: THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SERVED COLD YOU BARBARIAN
19:52:11 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaspacho \ wisdom/gaszpacho \ wisdom/gazpacho \ wisdom/gazspacho
19:52:36 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
19:52:45 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
19:52:54 <HackEgo> gazspacho is a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
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19:55:25 <oerjan> `run ? gazpacho # for completeness
19:55:27 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
19:56:36 <boily> oerjan: I like conflagrating stuff, especially soups that shouldn't :D
19:56:56 <boily> MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
19:57:04 <boily> (no, I still am not insane.)
19:57:12 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
19:57:28 <boily> oh well. just wait a few moments while I dropbox the draft pdf...
19:58:17 <boily> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
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19:59:29 <oerjan> <boily> 10 MB FOR A SINGLE ENTRY. <-- did you try to include `? ngevd
20:00:01 <boily> oerjan: oh no, that one is perfectly fine. gave me a little trouble because of the ‼, but otherwise no problem.
20:00:18 <boily> I was complaining about `? irrelevant info.
20:00:34 <oerjan> note that `? ngevd is not identical to wisdom/ngevd any longer
20:00:54 <HackEgo> KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
20:01:23 <boily> the ll of that one gives: «-rw-r--r-- 1 boily users 10M 27 aoû 20:52 irrelevant info»
20:01:48 <oerjan> i suppose that may be the case.
20:02:25 <boily> 10485760 bytes, to be exact.
20:04:29 <HackEgo> \ The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
20:05:12 <boily> eh? but... I have content!
20:05:30 <boily> oh. those are colour codes like everything else...
20:05:58 <boily> meh. I'll do that another day.
20:06:12 <boily> `? run cat wisdom/cello
20:06:14 <HackEgo> run cat wisdom/cello? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:06:18 <boily> `run cat wisdom/cello
20:06:20 <HackEgo> \ The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
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20:07:55 <oerjan> `run ord < wisdom/cello
20:08:15 <oerjan> hm i suppose it breaks on the colors
20:08:32 <oerjan> `run ord "`wisdom/cello`"
20:08:33 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/cello: Permission denied
20:08:42 <oerjan> `run ord "`cat wisdom/cello`"
20:08:44 <HackEgo> 3 52 84 104 101 32 3 55 104 105 103 104 32 3 56 108 101 118 101 108 32 3 57 115 116 117 99 116 117 114 101 32 3 50 111 102 32 3 49 51 67 101 108 108 111 32 3 54 112 114 111 106 101 99 116 115 32 3 52 105 115 32 3 55 105 110 115 112 105 114 101 100 32 3 56 98 121 32 3 57 47 72 97 115 107 101 108 108 47 44 32 3 50 119 104 105 108 101 32 3 49 51 116 1
20:08:48 <kmc> `run file wisdom/irrelevant*
20:08:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/irrelevant info: data
20:09:30 <kmc> oh Cello is this batshit awesome thung http://libcello.org/
20:10:08 <metasepia> Christopher Scott Thile (born February 20, 1981) is an American musician, best known as the mandolinist and a singer for the progressive acoustic trio Nickel Creek and acoustic folk/progressive bluegrass quintet the Punch Brothers.
20:10:32 <HackEgo> \ The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
20:10:43 <oerjan> wtf does it give the \ initially
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20:12:02 <oerjan> ok there _are_ two lines
20:12:14 <oerjan> `run tail +2 wisdom/cello
20:12:16 <HackEgo> tail: cannot open `+2' for reading: No such file or directory \ ==> wisdom/cello <== \ \ The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
20:12:29 <oerjan> `run tail -2 wisdom/cello
20:12:31 <HackEgo> \ The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
20:12:36 <oerjan> `run tail -1 wisdom/cello
20:12:37 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
20:12:52 <oerjan> `run tail -1 wisdom/cello > q; mv q wisdom/cello
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20:13:46 <oerjan> i'm sure there's a command _somewhere_ to only replace a file from a pipe once it's complete
20:15:28 <boily> oerjan: iirc, there's «sponge» to do that. can't remember where it came from...
20:16:13 <kmc> sponge is from moreutils
20:16:15 <kmc> moreutils is the best
20:16:41 <oerjan> Gregor: MOAR UTILS PLZ
20:17:06 <boily> Gracenotes: AS STRANGE AS IT MAY BE, I AGREE WITH ØRJAN. MOAAAAAAAR!
20:17:17 <boily> s/Gracenotes/Gregor/
20:17:26 <kmc> it also has 'parallel' (map a command over args in parallel) and 'ts' (prepend timestamp to each line of output)
20:17:31 <oerjan> @tell Gregor Your constant idleness ruins my jokes, also my nagging
20:17:32 <boily> I really should have an intelligent autocomplete. something smarter than I.
20:17:44 <fizzie> "pee: tee standard input to pipes" best name?
20:18:01 <fizzie> (Also "man pee" was not the best Google search.)
20:18:17 <kmc> depends what you're after
20:18:19 <Gregor> oerjan: Install it yourself.
20:19:00 <oerjan> `run aptget moreutils #THIS IS THE COMMAND RIGHT?
20:19:01 <HackEgo> bash: aptget: command not found
20:19:27 <oerjan> `run apt-get moreutils #THIS IS THE COMMAND RIGHT?
20:19:29 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Invalid operation moreutils
20:19:38 <fizzie> You also forgot the "install". Not that it'll help.
20:19:48 <oerjan> `run apt-get install moreutils #THIS IS THE COMMAND RIGHT?
20:19:51 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
20:20:08 <fizzie> You're, like, doubling the error message every iteration.
20:20:15 <oerjan> `run sudo apt-get install moreutils #NOW IT WORKS RIGHT?
20:20:17 <HackEgo> bash: sudo: command not found
20:22:22 <oerjan> i recall last i had a machine with linux that i administered. it used rpm
20:23:03 <fizzie> The Reverse Polish package Manager.
20:23:05 <oerjan> was in the glorious (read terrifying) year of 2002.
20:25:09 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
20:25:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/mouse/mousse/' wisdom/cpressey
20:25:32 <oerjan> i feel this is a clear improvement.
20:27:14 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
20:27:45 <Bike> take that, boily
20:29:08 <HackEgo> There are two kinds of fields. Those where you can divide (except by zero), and those where you can conquer.
20:31:07 <olsner> ah, so much good wisdom
20:31:11 <oerjan> `run ? firefly #Exercise: Why is this entry out of place?
20:31:13 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
20:33:45 <oerjan> `? for further details
20:33:48 <oerjan> `? for further details.
20:33:50 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
20:34:01 <oerjan> `? for further details for futher details.
20:34:01 <olsner> `? for further details for futher details.
20:34:03 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
20:34:03 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
20:34:11 <oerjan> `? for further details for further details.
20:34:13 <HackEgo> for further details for further details.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:34:34 <oerjan> boily: you misspelled the entry
20:34:47 <oerjan> by which i mean, you corrected the spelling
20:36:30 <kmc> wow, somebody is teaching an OS class using Rust: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs4414-fall2013/pages/ps1.html
20:36:53 <oerjan> boily: also, your conflagration of gaszpacho and gazspacho misses the point
20:37:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaspacho \ wisdom/gaszpacho \ wisdom/gazpacho \ wisdom/gazspacho \ wisdom/gazspaczo
20:37:37 <Bike> misses all five points
20:37:48 <HackEgo> gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
20:38:14 <HackEgo> gazspacho is a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
20:39:32 <olsner> boily: why are all backticks replaced with ... acute accents?
20:39:34 <boily> oerjan: okay, I'll deconflagrate the gazszpachoesz.
20:40:39 <oerjan> olsner: don't you mean grave
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20:41:47 <olsner> oerjan: according to wikipedia the acute accent is the one pointing the way it does in the pdf
20:43:02 <oerjan> i was assuming you were referring to the accent you pasted
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20:43:33 <boily> acute is ´, grave is `.
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20:44:19 <olsner> oerjan: that accent was copy-pasted from the pdf yes
20:44:35 <olsner> it seems to be doubling as an apostrophe as well?
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20:45:35 <HackEgo> itidus20's entry has been censored.
20:45:43 <oerjan> boily: you dropped the 's
20:45:58 <boily> it was voluntary. the «'s» didn't fit right.
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20:46:20 <oerjan> ...i suppose that's all right then.
20:47:28 <HackEgo> lexer is a maximally Norwegian painter. Its squares are munched with chili sauce.
20:47:42 <Bike> well, it's true
20:47:56 <olsner> edward munch vs maximum munch rule vs sriracha sauce, iirc ... the squares, I'm not quite sure
20:48:07 <fizzie> olsner: The "munching squares" display hack.
20:48:15 <fizzie> oerjan: Are you reading all of the wisdom. (All of it.)
20:48:44 <oerjan> all that boily has included in the pdf.
20:49:42 <fizzie> Oh, I did not see a PDF. I see it now.
20:49:49 <oerjan> ...where does the sriracha sauce fit in
20:51:02 <oerjan> perhaps this is the fault of google translate somehow.
20:51:08 <olsner> it seems anything even mentioned on the same day risks getting munched into the next wisdom entry
20:51:25 <fizzie> oerjan: It's from WordNet.
20:51:28 <lambdabot> *** "munch" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:51:28 <lambdabot> n 1: Norwegian painter (1863-1944) [syn: {Munch}, {Edvard
20:51:28 <lambdabot> 2: a large bite; "he tried to talk between munches on the
20:51:34 <lambdabot> v 1: chew noisily; "The children crunched the celery sticks"
20:52:02 <olsner> how/why did royal steaks get into the chess wisdom?
20:52:36 <fizzie> Anyway, sriracha sauce was a topic right around the same time indeed.
20:52:49 <oerjan> olsner: via discussing why you don't capture the king in chess iirc. anyway it was just the other day.
20:53:06 <olsner> I asked something about sriracha sauce vaguely around the time there was talk about munching, but I don't remember how it got mixed in
20:53:16 <olsner> oerjan: yeah, but how the steaks?
20:54:37 <oerjan> olsner: you can blame boily.
20:54:50 <oerjan> (also it was just yesterday.)
20:56:32 <oerjan> i think this is all part of boily denying going insane fwiw
20:56:37 <olsner> yeah, I do remember :) I wondered just as much about it back then
20:57:25 <oerjan> i was guessing it was a pun, which is why i googled and found monarch steak house but i don't know if that's really a widespread concept.
21:00:16 <oerjan> `run ? mojibake #Did boily really get this one right
21:00:18 <HackEgo> mojibake _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
21:00:45 <olsner> there might've been a few encoding problems on the way
21:01:22 <HackEgo> Morphisms are just elements of the Hom-set of a pair of objects.
21:01:58 <olsner> actually, I get the same mojibake as in the PDF, good job there
21:04:58 <oerjan> boily: the pho entry misses the bold
21:05:16 <oerjan> i guess that's obvious
21:06:36 <HackEgo> Pouti is boily's brother. he's also Canadian, and he closes the Roujo pointer loop.
21:06:45 <boily> oerjan: I had the bold, but changin the font to mathpazo screwed it.
21:07:17 <boily> oerjan: the mojibake entry was hand-tweaked. the broken pipe, ¬ and ¯ caused some problems.
21:07:18 <oerjan> `learn Poutine was Pouti and boily's sister until the tragic cheese accident.
21:07:28 <boily> we have a sister???
21:08:54 <olsner> boily: do you have something called pgf available in your tex environment? apparently it has a random number generator
21:09:29 <olsner> (e.g. as used here to solve a completely different problem http://tex.stackexchange.com/a/41850)
21:11:26 <olsner> `run touch wisdom/output
21:11:35 <oerjan> `learn Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
21:12:18 <Roujo> `learn xyzzy is Nothing happens
21:13:12 <oerjan> `run ? sgeolang #Out of date?
21:13:14 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
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21:14:35 <Bike> out of date. it's active worlds now
21:14:52 <fizzie> In a PostScript file you'd presumably optimally have a different ngevd output every time you view it. (If you can get some entropy in there.)
21:15:08 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
21:15:18 <oerjan> Bike: that's not a language
21:15:27 <olsner> fizzie: yes! that's even better than doing it at TeX time
21:15:37 <olsner> but it probably doesn't work in pdfs?
21:16:21 * oerjan is suspicious of that lone s
21:16:42 <olsner> doesn't pdfs have javascript support nowadays?
21:17:10 <oerjan> hm it's in the original wikipedia entry
21:17:25 <boily> I'm struggling with recursive \newcommand. what I want to achieve is to define a \newcolor{lightblue}{0.8,0.8,1} in the preamble, then have \lightblue{this is coloured} in the text.
21:17:30 <fizzie> You can embed some Flash in it, I think.
21:17:36 <oerjan> which is itself a quote.
21:17:46 <fizzie> And also some JavaScript too.
21:17:58 <fizzie> It's probably all quite Adobe-only.
21:20:02 <oklopol> oerjan: russian has lone s and lone v
21:20:53 <oklopol> meaning with, in, by, respectively; i think
21:21:44 <olsner> I think w is something like and in polish
21:22:33 <oerjan> but hungarian isn't slavic, although surrounded by slavic languages
21:22:58 <nooodl> apparently а, б, в, ж, и, к, о, с, у, я are all valid single-letter words in russian
21:23:18 <nooodl> (a b v zh i k o s u ya)
21:26:16 <oerjan> <boily> ~eval foldl1 max [5, 6, 8]
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21:26:53 <fizzie> You jumper-to-conclusions you.
21:27:21 <oerjan> my short term memory is not good enough to wait until i've read all the logs.
21:28:28 <fizzie> You could write all your comments to a file, and then paste it all at a time when you've finished.
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21:29:37 <oerjan> <boily> move along. nobody saw nothing. <-- OKAY
21:37:08 <kmc> TRAAAAAIN TIME
21:37:28 <kmc> class CatBus : public Cat, public Bus
21:37:28 <Roujo> Here it's more like BUS has-many CAR
21:37:49 <Roujo> class Bus extends Car implements PublicTransit
21:37:57 <boily> fungot the recursive newcommand.
21:37:57 <fungot> boily: pro. already haue i bin false to valentine, and viola in mans attire.
21:38:52 <kmc> are boily and fungot going to second level meditation?
21:38:53 <fungot> kmc: mess. my lord, you are too proud to yield her city for one little breach; should be divorced from her earthly spouse by the soft temper of a french man's sword? lo, to repair some other hour shall tell thee, farewell.
21:39:06 <fizzie> In re TRAINS: "In Scandinavia the Kiruna to Narvik railway carries iron ore from the mines in Kiruna in the north of Sweden down to the port of Narvik in Norway to this day. The rail cars are full of thousands of tons of iron ore on the way down to Narvik, and these trains generate large amounts of electricity by their regenerative braking. From Riksgränsen on the national border to the Port ...
21:39:13 <fizzie> ... of Narvik, the trains use only a fifth of the power they regenerate. The regenerated energy is sufficient to power the empty trains back up to the national border.[9] Any excess energy from the railway is pumped into the power grid to supply homes and businesses in the region, and the railway is a net generator of electricity."
21:39:21 <kmc> fuck yeah!
21:39:55 <Bike> how to make trains economical: fill them with ore. makes sense
21:40:12 <kmc> if you like trains you should join #cslounge-trains maybe
21:40:18 <kmc> i'm going to tell them about this now
21:40:39 <fizzie> Do tell them it was a Wikipedia quote, so you never know about reliability.
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21:40:44 <fizzie> [9] is another Wikipedia page.
21:40:49 <kmc> I couldn't find the same quote on Wikipedia
21:41:00 <fizzie> It was from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake
21:42:09 <olsner> how much energy does it take to bring the ore out of the mine to put it on the train though?
21:42:33 <fizzie> (Though that other page has a real citation, just not one available online -- "Næss, Per (3 August 2007). "Evighetsmaskiner". Fremover (in Norwegian). p. 28.")
21:42:54 <fizzie> I assume "Evighetsmaskiner" refers to a perpetual motion machine?
21:42:56 <Bike> olsner: eh, the romans could manage it, i'm sure swedes can
21:43:48 <fizzie> (Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hccf-8BYaDg best perpetual machine song?)
21:44:02 <kmc> ewige blumenkraft!
21:44:36 <fizzie> (There's a Finnish version of the song, too.)
21:45:41 <fizzie> (It's about a university professor being interviewed.)
21:45:42 <olsner> cool, what's its name?
21:46:36 <fizzie> olsner: "Fixu vekotin" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5AM2eUriS0
21:46:38 <kmc> also I think there is almost no electric freight rail in the USA
21:47:58 <kmc> there was one railroad that dismantled their electrification to sell it for fast cash... just as the price of copper plummeted and fuel skyrocketed
21:49:02 <oerjan> <olsner> looks like learn doesn't handle case properly <-- yes it does. now plural on the other hand...
21:49:17 <olsner> is it `? that does s then?
21:49:23 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
21:50:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> (Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hccf-8BYaDg best perpetual machine song?) <-- yes. i've linked it here before.
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21:53:49 <oerjan> elliott suggested making `learn do plurals the other day.
21:53:50 <kmc> "See also: - Swedish iron ore during World War II - Heaviest trains"
21:54:38 <boily> the yellow may be a little bit aggressive, but colours work!
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21:56:08 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
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21:56:32 <boily> that one is going to be nasty. I'll have to have to do a script for that...
21:57:58 <boily> I wonder if the link autoupgrades itself...
21:58:32 <boily> oerjan: colourful cello in the pdf!
22:02:16 <boily> the solution to the \newcommand in the \newcommand isn't exactly what I had in mind, but it works, and the end result is probably easier to autogenerate.
22:02:42 <boily> still, I haven't found a way to define a command whose name isn't yet known, and that can accept arguments.
22:06:01 <boily> 'night all! feel free to deconstruct the PDF.
22:06:03 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/tanebventions
22:06:27 <boily> oerjan: the pdf. not the db itself.
22:06:34 <boily> the PEEDEEÈÈÈÈÈFEUH!
22:06:46 <oerjan> i've lost the url for the moment.
22:07:01 <boily> about 280 replies earlier.
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22:07:16 <oerjan> somehow IE's logs doesn't include it.
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22:54:35 <nooodl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_categories_that_do_not_contain_themselves
22:55:16 <Bike> mediawiki's real failing is in allowing naïve quantification
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23:51:41 <elliott> does anyone have any particular recommendations as far as password management/generation programs and the like go? cross-platform is desirable of course, as is some form of mobile support (though not required)
23:52:52 <Fiora> lastpass is a thing, I think?
23:54:23 <shachaf> elliott: a piece of paper hth
23:55:39 <elliott> Fiora: yeah, I looked at it but I'm a bit wary of using a closed-source application for this kind of thing... especially since they've apparently already had a security breach :p
23:56:18 <elliott> I've been looking at KeePass/KeePassX which look pretty good, but I dunno
00:02:02 <oerjan> gah STXTRM's | command fails to work nicely with [] nesting :(
00:03:09 <oerjan> thought i could wrap up an easy TC proof
00:07:28 <oerjan> i still think the Fueue method can be ported, even without |
00:10:53 <kmc> I think people in ##crypto have strong opinions about this stuff
00:12:49 <elliott> kmc: yeah but that sounds scary :P
00:13:25 <elliott> *join* "how awful is keepass" "IT'S SHIT AND SO ARE YOU"
00:13:31 <elliott> ^ my impression of any channel I've never been in
00:14:26 <Bike> accurate impression
00:15:35 <elliott> also feels kind of like joining #haskell to ask if xmonad is any good
00:15:54 <Bike> do people do that
00:15:59 <Bike> well. probably.
00:16:29 <kmc> elliott: you could look through the logs I guess
00:17:49 <elliott> should just become a god capable of memorising twenty 32-character passwords like every other nerd on the planet apparently is
00:18:41 <Bike> just forget them all constantly and then get back on based on your taking the time to call an underpaid intern at the organization.
00:18:50 <Bike> works every time.
00:19:14 <elliott> hello, yes, is this esolangs.org support, I appear to have forgotten my wiki admin password
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02:39:01 <Sgeo> I wish Rebol was as popular as Tcl
02:39:31 <Sgeo> People have done pretty amazing things with Tcl, but I think Rebol is a better language
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04:51:01 <Sgeo> pikhq: have you looked into Rebol?
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10:55:44 <Jafet> elliott: function password { echo -n "> " && read -rs pw && echo -n "$pw" | sha1sum | head -c 40 && echo }
10:57:26 <elliott> this seems less than optimal
10:57:40 <Jafet> It's amazingly portable
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12:05:08 <oerjan> i thought osama was dead
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12:35:43 <boily> good deconstruction morning!
12:36:45 <oerjan> what was your particular purpose in making that statement, and what does it say about your mother?
12:44:24 <boily> I was enquiring about your collective comments on the Yesterday PDF, and I'm going to see her next weekend.
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12:46:01 <boily> oerjan: oh, and why the eliza this morning?
12:47:24 <oerjan> i'm just being deconstructive
13:33:55 <boily> say, do you interpret dreams?
13:36:17 <boily> I've had one the other night that left me very confused. I was spinning an explosive corncob on a submerged theater scene, and I have no clue in fungot about what it means.
13:36:17 <fungot> boily: ros. with a good will; i can tell you, and after go fnord hence, fnord and i know not
13:36:58 <oerjan> fungot is being mysterious about it as usual
13:36:59 <fungot> oerjan: all. dan diddle dan. o hapless fortune! let me clip ye in armes as sound, as things that are knowne alike, which master catesby here forth will pay ye.
13:37:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss* wp youtube
13:38:25 <boily> all dan diddle dan diddle ooooooh!
13:38:32 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
13:43:47 <boily> Roujo: apparently Montréalers like to chat: http://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/1lbt8n/how_to_chat_with_other_redditors_from_montreal/
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14:35:23 -!- boily has set topic: Hexham/Helsinki/Lachine axis | 22nd IOCCC: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q | comment on the wisdom PDF! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric hth.
14:36:04 <boily> I added a title page (from a template), and a small foreword.
14:36:28 <HackEgo> olist (915): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
14:36:29 <boily> I still need to insert the colourful and incomprehensible entries.
14:44:25 <oerjan> you know, i might be starting to dislike tarquin a tiny bit.
14:47:30 <shachaf> boily: tarquin is a kind of sweet sesame pudding
14:48:07 <boily> shachaf: like halva?
14:49:48 <boily> but... what of sesame on sushi?
14:52:27 <Koen_> suchi is much better off without it
14:53:27 <metasepia> salmon definition: a large anadromous salmonid fish ('''Salmo salar''') of the North Atlantic noted as a game and food fish called also '''Atlantic salmon'''.
14:53:39 * boily and metasepia glare at Koen_ “Such a lack of taste... you plebeian”
14:53:49 <metasepia> tuna definition: any of various flat-jointed prickly pears (genus '''Opuntia'''); '''especially'''.
14:53:56 <metasepia> A tuna is a saltwater finfish that belongs to the tribe Thunnini, a sub-grouping of the mackerel family (Scombridae) which together with the tunas, also includes the bonitos, mackerels, and Spanish mackerels.
14:55:33 <Koen_> boily: you know, in japanese restaurants in paris they usually have carpaccio de saumon de provence on their menu
14:56:07 <boily> Koen_: nice! completely unauthentic, but nevertheless nice.
14:56:50 <boily> here we get the usual american fare, meaning all variations on maki, but the sushi joints are nearly all tended by south-east asians or chinese people.
14:58:03 <boily> thus, in AYCE buffets you can get garlic beef tenderloin, thai style udon, fishballs, miso soup, fried shrimps, fish heads (apparently the eyes are good)...
14:58:39 <boily> and we get the obverse: in korean grills you can order sushi plates too :D
14:58:48 <Koen_> yes I'm pretty sure all asiatic restaurants in my hometown belong to the same family
14:59:15 <boily> that's a very profitable model: sale your restaurant to your nephew, evade taxes, buy it back later.
14:59:49 <Koen_> I extrapolated and decided there was only one family in asia
15:00:52 <boily> they're all 李, except when they're nguyễn.
15:05:29 <oerjan> Koen_: yeah the genghises
15:06:08 <Koen_> oh you know them too?
15:11:38 <Bike> do you not have any thai places
15:13:51 <boily> Bike: outside of the rampant Thaï Express and Thaï Zone (poor quality fast-food pseudo Thai chains), there are what... only a handful of real joints?
15:14:08 <boily> Roujo: do you have experience with thai restaurants on the island?
15:14:19 <Bike> chains usually suck anyway though...
15:15:24 <boily> luckily, there's one near our offices that has incredible pad thai. otherwise, you need to go to chinese restaurants downtown.
15:16:07 <boily> hm. looks like Roujo is dead...
15:16:33 <boily> @tell Roujo ARRÊTE DE FAIRE L'IDLE, INFÂME ET ODIEUX PERSONNAGE QUE TU ES! :D
15:17:52 <oerjan> incredible bad thai, check
15:23:37 <boily> oerjan: bad experience with thai food?
15:26:31 <oerjan> not that i can recall. the vietnamese restaurant we had in trondheim some years ago wasn't anything to celebrate, though.
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15:43:34 <boily> @tell oerjan «Itj færra nålles!» ← Is that an hth loophole abuse?
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15:55:22 <boily> a coworker pointed out that `? duoids is absent from the list.
16:04:17 <Koen_> so this queue-based paradigm would do something such that main() { a(); b(); } a() { c(); d(); } b() { e(); f(); } would be executed as main() a() b() c() d() e() f()
16:06:53 <Koen_> say, a program is a sequence of statements
16:07:10 <Koen_> a statement is either a minimal statement (let's call that an axiom), or a function
16:07:24 <Koen_> and a function is itself a sequence of statements
16:08:01 <Koen_> at the beginning of execution, the sequence of statement that constitute the program is in a (FIFO) queue
16:08:33 <Koen_> and execution consists in dequeuing the first element, executing it if it's an atom, or appending its content to the queue if it's a function
16:11:15 <Koen_> you know what I'm gonna try to get a password and write that down on the wiki
16:14:55 <Koen_> "A reminder e-mail has been sent. "
16:15:03 <Koen_> not sure I believe you, computer
16:21:45 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 5m 11s ago: ARRÊTE DE FAIRE L'IDLE, INFÂME ET ODIEUX PERSONNAGE QUE TU ES! :D
16:22:18 <Roujo> boily: Off-island, yeah. Inochi, à Vaudreuil.
16:22:47 <Roujo> On island... no. I know a Japanese place or two, but no Thai.
16:22:55 <Roujo> Well, except Thai Express >_>
16:24:02 <Roujo> @tell boily ARRÊTE DE FAIRE L'IDLE, INFÂME ET ODIEUX PERSONNAGE QUE TU ES! :D
16:30:26 <Koen_> so I look at my emails and I GOT A NEW EMAIL on the right account
16:30:53 <Koen_> turned out it's an agora-discussion digest and not a fresh password for esolangs
16:33:14 <elliott> Koen_: it is a gmail address.
16:33:36 <elliott> hmm, maybe I broke password emails
16:33:50 <Koen_> they worked one week ago
16:34:01 <Koen_> well I remember it didn't work on the first try but I finally got a new password
16:34:11 <elliott> and messed with mail stuff
16:34:20 <elliott> ok, I got an email but it went to spam.
16:35:22 <Koen_> I use thunderbird and it usually gets all the emails, including those that would appear into spam if I used gmail's page
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16:35:35 <elliott> well, I suggest double-checking :p
16:36:13 <Koen_> that's what I'm about to do
16:36:23 <Koen_> but I did received last week's email
16:36:37 <Koen_> and also remembering my gmail password for that account is hard
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16:42:00 <Koen_> and thank you for your help
16:42:31 <Koen_> it's not supposed to do that anyway
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16:52:58 <elliott> Koen_: I can just reset the password if you want.
16:53:07 <Koen_> now that's okay it worked
16:53:17 <Koen_> it was indeed in the spam filter
16:53:31 <Koen_> and now I feel like an idiot for not checking there earlier, but it's the first time it does that!
16:53:52 <Koen_> usually I don't care what's in the spam folder because I don't have such a folder when using thunderbird
16:54:11 <Koen_> buuuut for some reason thunderbird didn't take that message
16:56:54 <elliott> esolang stuff wasn't spam filtered before. I should fix it if I can (but I won't).
17:00:04 <Koen_> You should but you wouldn't, you can but you shan't
17:02:01 <boily> Roujo: j'ai le droit d'idler comme je veux. c'est mon heure de dîner! nah!
17:03:18 <boily> Roujo: the pulled pork sandwich, it was scrumptious ☺
17:03:37 <Roujo> boily: That's... odd. Someone in another channel was just commenting on that.
17:04:12 <boily> Roujo: was he at the «Dépanneur le Pick-up»?
17:04:24 <Roujo> boily: He lives in the US. So meh. =P
17:04:32 <Roujo> Well, I think e does, anyway
17:04:41 <boily> did you ask him the The Question?
17:04:51 <Roujo> I don't ask most people The Questiön
17:04:59 <Roujo> Since it's pretty much esolang related, right?
17:05:14 <Roujo> Who cares about the CoM of randome peopl?
17:05:41 <Roujo> I don't know how that e moved all the way over there
17:06:03 <boily> that's why I nail my lettërs down, so that they don't move.
17:07:12 <Roujo> Oh, by the way - while learning myself a haskell might be for great good, I decided I should work instead =P
17:07:22 <Roujo> So that Project is Paused
17:12:21 <boily> you know you have learned haskell when your first impulse in the morning is to write a monad tutorial before breakfast.
17:13:32 <Roujo> I thus conclude that I have not
17:13:48 <Roujo> I think it's mostly because I don't see any use in it, I guess
17:14:10 <Roujo> So I'd be learning it for fun
17:14:24 <Roujo> But there are already other languages in that queue =P
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18:14:36 <Roujo> `relcome KingOfKarlsruhe
18:14:39 <HackEgo> KingOfKarlsruhe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:19:56 <boily> I can insert a Linear B goat, but not the unicode character. sometimes LaTeX is really infuriating.
18:21:17 <Roujo> I just got back into LaTeX this morning ^^
18:21:25 <Roujo> Has to make a nice help document
18:21:46 <Roujo> I took the opportunity to make a pun using math symbols - I love math + LaTeX
18:22:35 <Bike> i wonder how often people write linear b in latex
18:23:23 <HackEgo> 🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
18:23:52 <Roujo> How can I fix this?
18:23:55 <Roujo> Add more fonts? =P
18:24:18 <boily> Roujo: harken to olsner's advice.
18:24:31 <Roujo> Chrome has teleported all of mine >_>
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18:27:42 <HackEgo> t̵ͦiͭme͡ S͖̀l̘̿͟o̯ͥwl̀͠y̮ ̥g̅eṱ̉҉ţi͊͡n̅ğ̨̺ ͫw͖ͭor͡s̯ęͣ
18:28:12 <boily> okay. bear with me for a moment there. HOW CAN I LATEX THAT? AAAAAAAAAAAH!.
18:28:40 <Roujo> That broke myndzi on my end
18:34:20 <nooodl> what are you latexing boily
18:37:31 <elliott> boily: how did you handle `? ngevd?
18:39:11 <boily> nooodl: look at the topic ↑
18:39:31 <boily> elliott: I used the secret hidden file, not the real ngevdism.
18:40:03 <boily> (I think some people suggested an RNG for generating the entry dynamically)
18:40:09 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
18:40:14 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
18:40:31 <nooodl> help i'm laughing so hard at the first page
18:40:32 <boily> nooodl: well, same as the Ngevd Circumventing Workaround.
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18:48:11 <boily> wasn't there an entry with an unicode keyboard? I can't seem to find it...
18:55:35 <HackEgo> Morphisms are just elements of the Hom-set of a pair of objects.
18:55:51 <nooodl> boily: your pdf says "morphism are just elements..."
18:56:19 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
18:56:47 <olsner> the pdf seems to be missing something there
18:56:56 <boily> nooodl: ah? lemme check.
18:57:16 <boily> olsner: I went for a compromise for that one. piped through od, a little bit of formatting, and that's it.
18:57:27 <olsner> the missing s on morphism was reported yesterday already (!)
18:57:30 <boily> otherwise, I could have printed out a bunch of squares, but that'd be boring.
18:57:54 <boily> there. the morphisms are plural now.
18:58:02 <boily> and my weechat is completely borked.
18:58:27 <boily> olsner: it shows up as an unknown character in my terminal.
18:59:31 <olsner> U+0BF5 Tamil year sign, apparently
19:00:12 <boily> olsner: I'll tamilify bc, then.
19:00:20 <boily> elliott: working on that. missing font shapes...
19:01:06 <elliott> boily: phantom_+hoover needs code formatting for the HTML, and the qdb rules for the excerpt examples! and quit. for the /quit
19:03:00 <boily> olsner: hm. easier said than done. I have to go through itrans, it seems.
19:04:03 <boily> elliott: I tried to dodge having to do with lstlistings, but seems I have no choice. same thing for the qdb rules (probably just a \texttt{} for those). what about the /quit?
19:04:05 <olsner> perhaps there should be an appendix with notes about just how horrible it is to get the stuff into tex
19:04:31 <boily> olsner: I'll have a complaints chapter at the end. some entries are just plain vile.
19:05:16 <elliott> boily: also, I think the last entry in the pdf is misglyphed.
19:06:47 <olsner> oh, and one of the gashpachos is a *polish* szoup, that should be disflagrated from the hungarian one
19:07:13 <boily> elliott: oh! the enveloppy keyboard! I knew there was one there.
19:07:25 <boily> olsner: yeah, working on the disflagration.
19:08:42 <boily> `learn disflagrate v.t.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
19:08:43 <Taneb> My brother just asked for help using GIMP
19:08:53 <Taneb> His exact question was, "where was the tool for the pictures?"
19:09:02 <Roujo> `learn The Neverending Work is what boily is going through trying to map entries that are being put in at the same time.
19:09:19 <HackEgo> The Neverending Work is what boily is going through trying to map entries that are being put in at the same time.
19:09:37 <boily> I'll let y'all fix that. my weechat is REALLY borked.
19:10:13 <olsner> you should make use of the fact that hackego has a hg repo that you can track for changes (once you manage to catch up with any revision of it)
19:11:40 <boily> (sorry for the noise. trying to make the bad stuff scroll up...)
19:12:08 <boily> seems that the bc line is really nasty...
19:12:39 <Roujo> `learn LaTeX is \end{document}
19:13:08 <boily> Roujo: テメ〜〜〜〜〜ッ！！！
19:13:18 <olsner> pretty sure `? bc is proper unicode though ... does it break your client just because it's not present in your font?
19:13:38 <Roujo> boily: I don't even
19:14:04 <boily> olsner: bc is correct finally. the brokenness happened earlier.
19:14:05 <olsner> is escaping tex code hard in tex?
19:14:30 <boily> Roujo: translation: «Toé mon espèce de...»
19:14:47 <kmc> olsner: mostly not
19:14:57 <boily> olsner: not really. it was just one another attempt at making my job even more difficult.
19:18:50 <Bike> guess it doesn't real, then.
19:21:01 <Roujo> `learn LaTeX is \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
19:23:40 <Roujo> Just an escaped escaped sequence
19:25:03 <olsner> eh, it seems that people think tex quines should write themselves to tex's standard output or to a new tex file on disk, rather than into the typeset result
19:27:37 <Koen_> I never thought "people" had an opinion regarding tex quines
19:28:40 <boily> nooodl: toé is vernacular oral Québécois French for «toi», otherwise known as “you”.
19:28:58 <nooodl> oh, that's what i expected
19:29:06 <metasepia> people definition: '''plural''' human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a common interest.
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19:29:30 <nooodl> québécois est effrayant
19:30:48 <boily> nooodl: bin wéyons dont. ça se peut tu dire des affaires de même.
19:31:19 <boily> fizzie: at least it's not an “'''especially'''”.
19:32:27 <nooodl> boily: huh, reading québécois french feels exactly like reading french back when i couldn't read french
19:33:54 <Roujo> L'affaire, c'est qu'ça dépend en masse du niveau d'language que'l gars utilise
19:34:51 <boily> watche tes apostrophes, le monde pourraient s'mêler avec des patentes écrites mal amanchées.
19:35:58 <boily> (me d'mande comment que google translate est capable de traduire ça.)
19:36:31 <Koen_> le monde pourraient s'mêler? is that google translate?
19:37:21 <nooodl> this exchange was readable up until "patentes écrites mal amanchées" but maybe those are actual french words who knows
19:37:42 <boily> Koen_: «le monde» is plural this side of the Great Atlantic Puddle.
19:38:02 <boily> nooodl: «patente»: thingamabob. «mal»: bad. «amanchées»: eeeeeh... let me think about that one.
19:38:15 <Koen_> nooodl: I confirm "écrites" and "mal" are actual french words
19:38:48 <boily> Koen_: like in the expression: «le monde sont caves icitte ça a pas d'allure.»
19:39:25 <nooodl> remember when i said québécois est effrayant?
19:39:33 <nooodl> turns out it is... très effrayant
19:39:42 <Roujo> Effrayant en maudit, oui
19:40:14 <Roujo> Koen_: It's not plural, don't worry =P
19:40:18 <boily> «amancher» v.t.: to fit, to join together, usually in a hackish manner (probably involving some duct tape). to say that something is «mal amanché» means that it's shoddy, and threatens to collapse at any given moment.
19:40:37 <Roujo> Not officially, anyway
19:40:48 <Roujo> But yeah, le monde sont cave
19:41:07 <Roujo> Nah, people are stupid
19:41:13 <nooodl> or rather: effrayant de câlice
19:41:23 <boily> olsner: dumb, as like a caveman.
19:41:26 <Roujo> Effrayant en calisse
19:41:41 <boily> nooodl: check your prepositions!
19:41:42 <nooodl> i knew that wouldn't be an actual thing
19:42:19 <boily> nooodl: en to start, de to chain. like an applicative functor, <$> at the beginning, then <*> between every sacre.
19:43:52 <boily> by the way, I lstlisted the Twenty Underscores Phantom Hoover.
19:44:19 <nooodl> can you write "effrayant en câlice de crisse de tabarnak" as "(|effrayant câlice crisse tabarnak|)" using the montréal québécois enhancement?
19:45:42 <boily> I don't see why not.
19:46:21 <boily> the phở refuses to be emboldened.
19:46:56 <nooodl> is the .tex file public?
19:49:33 <boily> I just created a private github repo. could make it public if you want too.
19:53:11 <fizzie> Doesn't private github cost money or something?
19:53:50 <boily> fizzie: yes. I already have a plan for private repos for other projects, so it's not an issue.
19:54:42 <boily> nooodl: I guess your github account is nooodl?
19:55:01 <boily> you are now a collaborator.
19:55:23 <boily> feel free to deconstruct and butcher and flblblblbwobble the whole thing.
19:55:44 <boily> (like a punctured balloon captured on a hi-speed video camera)
19:56:37 <fizzie> I think they should use the term "coconspirator" instead of "collaborator" on GitHub.
19:58:33 <boily> `run echo "A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in catterpillar silk" >wisdom/cocoonspirator
20:00:08 <Koen_> did we broke `learn
20:00:30 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:00:59 <boily> Koen_: that's the Recommended Best Practice to have an entry that doesn't start with the defined word.
20:01:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:02:29 <Koen_> breaking `learn is the Recommended Best Practice?
20:02:36 <lambdabot> boily said 4h 19m 1s ago: «Itj færra nålles!» ← Is that an hth loophole abuse?
20:02:42 <Koen_> and you think I'd buy that
20:02:51 <oerjan> boily: i don't think so
20:03:53 <oerjan> DID SOMEONE BREAK `learn
20:04:12 <kmc> what language is that
20:04:14 <boily> oerjan: no, that's just Koen_ who's being a tad paranoïd after a head-first encounter with Québécois.
20:05:00 <oerjan> Koen_: your french frenchness is too anomalous in this channel. have you considered emigrating to canada, belgium or switzerland?
20:05:12 <Koen_> oerjan: if you suspect the person you're facing is Québécoiste, the Recommended Best Practice is to quietly move backwards until you're no longer facing em
20:05:19 <kmc> bad diaeresis
20:05:33 <oerjan> Koen_: wouldn't it be quicker to just turn around
20:05:41 <Koen_> oerjan: I lived near the border with switzerland for two years
20:06:12 <oerjan> kmc: the thing boily quoted is norwegian dialect.
20:06:14 <Koen_> the people there were all about pronouncing 90 "nonante" instead of our fancy "quatre-vingt dix"
20:06:31 <boily> Koen_: disgusting.
20:06:48 <oerjan> i hear the belgians do the same
20:06:48 <kmc> which dialect?
20:07:26 <oerjan> kmc: southern trøndelag, where trondheim is. (northern would be "fårrå" instead hth.)
20:07:59 <boily> it really is an hth loophole.
20:08:37 <Koen_> oerjan: we classy french people have three irregular fancy numbers; 70 is soixante-dix, 80 is quatre-vingt, 90 is quatre-vingt dix
20:09:03 <Koen_> and from what I understand, belgian have regular unfancy words for two of those numbers, and swiss people for all three
20:09:06 <boily> `pastquote quatre-vingt
20:09:07 <Bike> gotta love those celts
20:09:09 <Koen_> or maybe it's one and three
20:09:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastquote: not found
20:09:20 <boily> `pastequote quatre-vingt
20:09:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
20:09:23 <Roujo> cat pastquote > pastquote
20:09:35 <oerjan> boily: the thing is, no one can explain exactly what "nålles" means so it _might_ be a hth loophole or not.
20:09:37 <Koen_> anyway I suggest not insulting a swiss (or belgian) by suggesting he might have all three when he's got only one or two
20:09:40 * boily bludgeons HackEgo with a hammer shark
20:09:54 <boily> oerjan: subtle. I like your technique.
20:10:44 <oerjan> Koen_: i do know how to count in (french) french
20:11:10 <Koen_> but do you know how to count in swiss and how to count in belgian?
20:11:19 <Koen_> can you tell swiss appart of belgian?
20:11:31 <Koen_> I mean despite the german accent
20:12:06 -!- augur has joined.
20:12:23 <oerjan> boily: it's generally interpreted something like "take care" or "godspeed" though.
20:14:15 <oerjan> well i've heard about the septante, huitante and nonante or thereabouts thing but i didn't know there were subtleties in how many were used
20:15:21 <oerjan> boily: you may be looking for pastequotes
20:16:05 <oerjan> the middle might be octante i'm not sure
20:17:04 <Koen_> I thought that was octante
20:17:13 <Koen_> or maybe that's yet another difference between belgian and swiss
20:17:36 <Koen_> oh right you said that already
20:17:38 <boily> octante fell into disuse, and is now the bastardized huitante.
20:17:55 <Roujo> I just use huit-dix
20:18:10 <Koen_> is that japanese french?
20:18:43 <boily> Roujo: 本当に日本人じゃないか？
20:19:31 <oerjan> octo and octaginta are the original latin for 8 and 80, so it's just a matter of when/where you apply weird sound changes i think
20:19:47 <boily> Roujo: sûr que t'es pas un japonais?
20:20:04 <Roujo> boily: Pretty sure, yeah
20:20:19 <coppro> boily: t'est Québecois, oui?
20:20:26 <boily> the current DCSS challenge on /r/roguelikes is ascending with an OpTm.
20:20:39 <boily> coppro: mon père est un Tremblay. pas mal certain que oui :D
20:21:11 <coppro> boily: haha. ##CanadaPolitics
20:21:57 <boily> coppro: fuggedaboutit. no way I'm immiscing myself into Canadian Politics.
20:22:06 <boily> waaaaay too dangerous.
20:22:14 <boily> coppro: octopode transmuter.
20:23:07 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:23:29 <metasepia> CYUL 292000Z 02007KT 15SM FEW025 24/18 A3003 RMK CU2 SLP168 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
20:23:53 <nooodl> belgians say quatre-vingt
20:24:11 <Roujo> Most sane people do
20:24:15 <boily> much better than yesterday, and the looming CU2 may summon some water to water my plants.
20:24:43 <nooodl> ~apparently~ they say septante and nonante in wallonia but here in flanders we get explicitly taught not to use them.
20:24:43 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:24:55 <nooodl> so i'm used to quatre-vingt-dix etc.
20:25:42 <Koen_> nooodl: isn't that a rebel politics "okay, learning french is vital because half our country speaks french, but there's no way we're gonna learn THEIR french"
20:25:58 <coppro> noodl: what do they use for eighty?
20:26:34 <boily> we should all say «eightyante». it's modern, trendy, and horrendous.
20:26:49 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:27:06 <Roujo> I might have broken the bot
20:27:16 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:27:20 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:27:32 <boily> Roujo: wow. that doesn't happen often.
20:28:01 <Roujo> Kind of makes your LaTeX job easier
20:28:07 <nooodl> did you overwrite /bin/cat
20:28:24 <Roujo> But yeah, I got the path wrong or something
20:28:32 <boily> Roujo: easier, but much longer. now I need to define everything!
20:28:53 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:29:13 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:29:25 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:29:38 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:29:45 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:29:59 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:30:07 <nooodl> cats ARE cool but should be illegal
20:30:12 <Roujo> I'll go revert that in private, then
20:30:29 <HackEgo> Cats are cool but should be illegal
20:31:02 <nooodl> wow my latex doesn't support japanese fonts ;_;
20:31:23 <fizzie> You guys have noticed you keep wobbling between two revisions, right?
20:31:26 <oerjan> Roujo: boily: i don't think `revert is cumulative. for anything more than the last change you need to look up the repository commit number.
20:31:30 <boily> is there a `vert command to go to the next commit in time?
20:31:36 <nooodl> fizzie: i suspected that
20:31:41 <Roujo> Where is the repo? I'll look it up and fix it =/
20:31:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:32:03 <Roujo> I'll get right on it
20:32:13 <boily> HackEgo is snubbing me.
20:32:33 <nooodl> you wanna go back here http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/f6f3d9626c03
20:32:56 <Roujo> I didn't realize that `ls cut off
20:33:13 <Roujo> And generally goofed, methinks
20:33:49 <boily> no no no! don't feel sorry!
20:33:57 <nooodl> Roujo: replacing every single entry with "Cats are cool but should be illegal" might actually have been an enhancement to the wisdomdb.
20:34:05 <boily> that's the first time I seen somebody break HackEgo!
20:34:36 <Roujo> That's not exactly what I did, though. I just `run echo Cats are cool > /hackenv/bin/cat
20:34:38 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
20:34:48 <Koen_> did someone break `learn ?
20:34:49 <Roujo> Which overrided /bin/cat, which is fine
20:34:55 <boily> Koen_: nah. nobody did.
20:35:13 <Roujo> But then catted over important stuff >_>
20:35:29 <boily> Koen_: besides, it's illegal.
20:35:30 <nooodl> <Roujo> Which overrided /bin/cat, which is fine <-- imo this probably isn't fine
20:35:38 <oerjan> Roujo: i think simply `rm bin/cat would have fixed it too
20:35:52 <Roujo> I was waiting for someone to notice it
20:36:01 <Roujo> But then I broke more stuff
20:36:33 <oerjan> nooodl: you can always use the absolute path to get to the /bin ones.
20:37:08 <oerjan> also, we have already overridden `ls on purpose.
20:40:54 <oerjan> i used to occasionally check the repository history, but i've been too lazy recently.
20:41:46 <Koen_> hey just out of curiosity is it a common practice to add a directory of your own, say ~/bin, to PATH in a terminal? so you can have your programs accessible as commands
20:42:14 <fizzie> Sometimes to the end instead of the front of PATH, though.
20:42:55 <Koen_> yes I thought it would be more prudent to add it to the end
20:43:20 <fizzie> (Also having it, say, as ~/local/bin, lets you install e.g. autoconf'd stuff in there with ./configure --prefix=$HOME/local.)
20:43:46 <oerjan> i've got it at the beginning, by the default setup at nvg's servers
20:43:47 <Koen_> not sure I get the subtlety of that
20:44:33 <fizzie> Well, I mean, if you install something with --prefix=$HOME, you end up with ugly ~/lib, ~/share and whatnot.
20:45:06 <oerjan> Koen_: if you're not root, and want to compensate for something being broken, then you definitely would want it at the beginning i think.
20:45:41 <Koen_> so I should put it at the end on my personal computer and at the beginning on my session at school?
20:45:54 <fizzie> I think it mostly depends on what you want to put there.
20:45:55 <oerjan> um this is not official guidance :P
20:46:05 <fizzie> You could even put one directory in front and another in back.
20:47:02 <Koen_> weeeeeell right now random functions I think are cool to have accessible in the shell
20:47:06 <Koen_> like fibonacci or whatever
20:47:08 <fizzie> The "~/local as an installation prefix" is often compounded with LD_LIBRARY_PATH of ~/local/lib, and maybe a PKG_CONFIG_PATH of ~/local/lib/pkgconfig, and assorted other such environment variables.
20:47:18 <Koen_> nothing terribly useful yet
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20:47:27 <nooodl> wow i've been using "alias" all my life
20:47:49 <nooodl> instead of adding stuff to PATH i'd make an alias for it
20:48:23 <Koen_> I make aliases for stuff I'm too lazy to write
20:48:37 <Koen_> like gccw for gcc -Wall -Wextra -Werror
20:52:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
20:52:17 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:52:24 <oerjan> heh i actually have irssi as an alias, because the setup here is such that the PATH contains first a directory with a much older version. or at least did when i made the alias. or maybe it was simply broken, i don't quite remember.
20:53:45 <Roujo> Remnants of simpler times
20:54:49 <oerjan> or rather remnants of the university developing its own multi-os package system way back in the 90's, which now on nvg's servers competes with the usual linux packages and are earlier in the PATH
20:56:15 <oerjan> and is not, i suspect, very well maintained any longer.
21:06:24 <HackEgo> 🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
21:06:46 <Koen_> are all unicode goats square?
21:06:56 * oerjan does a little dance. very small, as he can't be bothered to get up off the sofa.
21:07:15 <oerjan> oh hm i guess it _might_ be missing its back legs.
21:08:10 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
21:10:43 <oerjan> what, fileformat.info doesn't recognize the goat
21:13:37 <Bike> all computable functions are differentiable, right?
21:14:57 <Taneb> Bike, I don't think so?
21:16:44 <Taneb> f(x : Rational) if the denominator of the simplest form of x then 1 else 0
21:17:16 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weierstrass_function that's computable, right?
21:17:22 <Bike> oh, differentiable on R i mean
21:17:28 <oerjan> Bike: absolute value function is a counterexample
21:17:52 <oerjan> didn't there use to be a `? `? entry
21:18:27 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:18:34 <Bike> absolute value isn't computable is it
21:19:07 <kmc> it's computable for computable reals
21:20:27 <oerjan> Roujo: subtle. maybe too subtle.
21:22:02 <oerjan> Bike: the thing is, you don't actually need to test equality to 0 for the absolute value.
21:22:36 <Phantom__Hoover> you do need to establish whether a number is nonpositive or nonnegative though
21:23:17 <oerjan> you need to establish _either_ x < epsilon or x > -epsilon for epsilon your asked for accuracy level.
21:23:56 <oerjan> hm, or maybe epsilon/2
21:24:09 <Phantom__Hoover> ...yes, and if x=0 both of those will be false for any epsilon
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21:29:22 <nooodl> help what is computability even
21:30:21 <oerjan> nooodl: you mean in general, or for reals?
21:31:04 <Bike> also i don't know if weierstrass is computable
21:31:19 <Bike> can't even think of a continuous uncomputable function
21:32:16 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_real_function is it this kind of computable
21:33:11 <nooodl> how do you even prove some function is uncomputable
21:33:23 <Fiora> reduce it to the halting problem?
21:33:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:33:49 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_undecidable_problems or I guess any of these
21:33:57 <Fiora> but I'm guessing almost all of those were proven by reduction to the halting problem?
21:34:13 <Bike> it can be easier
21:34:23 <Bike> like, the indicator function for 0 is uncomputable
21:34:38 <Bike> f(0) = 1, f(anything else) = 0
21:34:55 <Fiora> is that uncomputable for other nujmbers other than zero? like
21:34:59 <Fiora> f(1) = 1, f(anything else) = 0
21:35:21 <Bike> since you need infinite accuracy to determine if two numbers are equal
21:35:27 <oerjan> nooodl: i don't see the point of that sequence stuff...
21:35:41 <oerjan> i guess there are subtleties.
21:35:44 <Fiora> but doesn't that mean that it's O(N) in the size of the input?
21:35:45 <Fiora> that seems pretty computable
21:36:10 <Bike> the "size of the input" as in digits, you mean?
21:36:15 <Bike> because that ain't gonna fly with pi
21:36:20 <oerjan> i expect weierstrass is computable, anyway.
21:36:43 <Fiora> I don't understand, sorry >_<
21:36:51 <Bike> well, what did you mean by "the size of the input"
21:37:01 <Fiora> um... in data? any representation you want I guess? >_<
21:37:08 <Fiora> you have a turing machine that takes an input and generates output
21:37:32 <shachaf> which input are you talking about
21:37:40 <Bike> well, say your computable function is f(n) = the nth digit of the real
21:38:04 <shachaf> you could say that a real number is an infinite stream of bits or something
21:38:08 <Fiora> "1.000000000000.....1"
21:38:13 <Fiora> sorry, accidental up-enter
21:38:36 <Fiora> sorry I guess I just don't really get why it's not computable if you have to read the input to generate an output...
21:38:43 <Fiora> by that logic, like, sorting an array isn't computable...
21:38:44 <oerjan> a computable real _number_ is basically a function which gives you for any n a rational number within 1/n of it.
21:38:57 <shachaf> Fiora: well, the function has to check whether its input is equal to 1
21:39:09 <Fiora> so it has to read N digits of its input
21:39:12 <Fiora> then it answers your question?
21:39:18 <Fiora> the size of your input...
21:39:25 <shachaf> The input is an infinite stream of bits.
21:39:30 <Fiora> that.... that doesn't make any sense
21:39:36 <Fiora> by that logic sorting isn't computable!!
21:39:46 <Bike> what's the size of an infinite stream?
21:39:48 <shachaf> real numbers don't make sense hth
21:39:54 <Fiora> because if your input is an infinite stream of bits, you can't sort it either
21:40:01 <oerjan> Fiora: computable real numbers are programs, not simple data.
21:40:04 <nooodl> man how are real numbers even defined
21:40:09 <nooodl> i've never spent a whole lot of time thinking about this
21:40:11 <Bike> nooodl: dedekind cuts
21:40:19 <Bike> or cauchy sequences.
21:40:34 <shachaf> Fiora: Well, how often do you sort the bits in a number?
21:40:37 <Bike> Fiora: well, yes, why would sorting an infinite stream be computable?
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21:40:44 <Fiora> so... sorting isn't computable either...
21:40:47 <Fiora> um... is anything computable?
21:40:48 <Bike> a /finite/ stream is doable, of course
21:41:03 <shachaf> Lots of things are computable.
21:41:04 <Fiora> I guess things with no dependency on input are computable...
21:41:06 <Bike> Fiora: sorting is computable, sorting the digits of an arbitrary real (a very different and kind of weird operation) not so much
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21:41:11 <Fiora> but I didn't say that ._.
21:41:21 <Fiora> I just said... sorting an input
21:41:23 <shachaf> You can do things within any particular precision you want.
21:41:36 <Fiora> gah nevermind everyone's just ignoring me...
21:41:37 <shachaf> Fiora: You can't even in general check whether two real numbers are equal.
21:41:54 <shachaf> So things like sorting are a problem.
21:42:04 <oerjan> Fiora: sorting is computable actually, but you have to do it by computing maxima and minima _instead_ of testing for < = >
21:42:35 <oerjan> sort [a, b] = [min a b, max a b]
21:43:09 <Bike> annoying fiora with three explanations of different things at once
21:43:20 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i'm showing that sorting a list of computable real numbers is computable, even though you cannot compare them.
21:43:31 <shachaf> oerjan: what about a stable sort hth
21:43:42 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, no deal.
21:43:44 <Bike> long live something else
21:44:00 <kmc> btw I thought of a continuous function which is almost everywhere uncomputable
21:44:10 <kmc> a triangle wave is continuous right? (not differentiable though)
21:44:20 <kmc> no I mean even on computable inputs
21:44:44 <kmc> so say that the function on [n,n+1] is a triangle up to +1 if the nth turing machine halts, and a triangle down to -1 if it doesn't
21:45:19 <nooodl> that's a good function
21:45:31 <nooodl> could easily make it everywhere differentiable, too
21:46:12 <nooodl> (i guess you could just integrate that)
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21:53:18 <oerjan> oh hm, there's a simpler example of a continuous function that is nowhere computable: the function f(x) = c where c is any uncomputable real.
21:54:38 <nooodl> oerjan: i was literally thinking of that but i thought it was too obvious and i don't know anything about this stuff anyway
21:55:35 <oerjan> kmc's function has, i think, the advantage that it's rational for rational numbers, so sort of the opposite of this.
22:02:04 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: the weierstrass function is defined as a uniformly convergent sequence of computable functions where you can with low complexity calculate all the bounds involved, i'm pretty sure it must be computable.
22:06:58 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: the graphical construction section seems to imply that blancmange is the sum of a series of triangle waves, so i'll hazard a guess it's computable just the same.
22:09:53 <HackEgo> disflagrate v.t.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
22:10:22 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/:/perf.:/' wisdom/disflagrate
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22:11:16 <oerjan> who is the resident polish here nowadays
22:16:04 <oerjan> @ask <Taneb> His exact question was, "where was the tool for the pictures?" <-- are you sure you haven't beat his head too much
22:20:07 <HackEgo> LaTeX is extbackslash textbackslash beginextbackslash \{documentextbackslash \}
22:20:45 <HackEgo> LaTeX is extbackslash textbackslash beginextbackslash \{documentextbackslash \}
22:21:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | lowercase) \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:21:27 <kmc> `run sed -i 's/\t/\\t/g' wisdom/latex
22:21:37 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
22:23:13 <oerjan> wait what's the point of that info=
22:31:08 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/echo/echo -E/g' bin/learn
22:32:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo -E "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | lowercase) \ info=$(echo -E "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo -E "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -E "I knew that."
22:37:12 <oerjan> `run echo -E "what\\tnow"
22:37:58 <oerjan> `sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/learn
22:37:59 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
22:38:06 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/learn
22:38:36 <Phantom__Hoover> <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: the graphical construction section seems to imply that blancmange is the sum of a series of triangle waves, so i'll hazard a guess it's computable just the same.
22:38:41 * Bike looks at oerjan, at clock, back at oerjan
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22:39:05 <oerjan> `run rm wisdom/{ttest,-e}
22:40:06 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ -E//' bin/learn
22:40:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ -E//' bin/learn
22:40:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | lowercase) \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:41:06 <Bike> it's just, you've been doing this for twenty minutes now
22:41:07 <oerjan> ok the option was unnecessary, it's just bash instead of sh
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22:43:35 <oerjan> Bike: well yes, i'm not very good at understanding why shells do stupid things.
22:51:39 <HackEgo> The Neverending Work is what boily is going through trying to map entries that are being put in at the same time.
22:51:55 <Bike> "My friend and mentor Sam Treiman liked to relate his experience of how, during World War II, the U.S. Army responded to the challenge of training a large number of radio engineers starting with very different levels of preparation, ranging down to near zero. They designed a crash course for it, which Sam took. In the training manual, the first chapter was devoted to Ohm’s three laws. Ohm’s first law is V = IR. Ohm’s second law is I = V/R. I’
22:51:58 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/the{, neverending work}
22:51:59 <HackEgo> mv: target `work}' is not a directory
22:52:26 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/the{,' neverending work'}
22:52:48 <Bike> `? the neverending work
22:52:49 <HackEgo> The Neverending Work is what boily is going through trying to map entries that are being put in at the same time.
22:53:38 <oerjan> Bike: you got cut off at I = V/R. I'
22:54:55 <oerjan> Bike: i've been recommended the splitlong irssi script
22:54:58 <shachaf> ll leave it to you to reconstruct Ohm's third law.
22:55:16 <shachaf> Bike: /script load splitlong.pl hth
22:55:39 <Bike> /ctcp bike version
22:55:41 <oerjan> shachaf: that doesn't make it permanent i think
22:55:45 <Roujo> oerjan: So... what did I sublty do?
22:56:08 <oerjan> Roujo: that's very subtly different from undefined
22:56:18 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, i don't remember doing anything else
22:57:12 <oerjan> shachaf: huh, i recall being told to put it into some directories and stuff.
22:57:24 <Roujo> `run echo Nothing happens wisdom/xyzzy
22:57:26 <HackEgo> Nothing happens wisdom/xyzzy
22:57:32 <Roujo> `run echo Nothing happens. > wisdom/xyzzy
22:57:54 <oerjan> and made an autorun link to itself
22:58:17 <Roujo> `run echo Cats are cool, but should be illegal. > wisdom/cat
22:58:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
23:05:22 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: please comment on realism of this http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/130829.html
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23:12:19 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
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23:17:12 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, there aren't any lizards in scotland, saint andrew drove them all away
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23:29:47 <oerjan> i take it they got swapped with the irish snakes.
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00:17:05 <doesthiswork> one interesting thing about natural languages is that less surprising information is placed towards the beginning of a sentence, and more surprising towards the end
00:17:53 <coppro> and is that actually a property of languages or simply a human propensity to express surprise in a, well, surprising manner
00:17:55 <doesthiswork> this might be an attempt to smooth out the bit of information conveyed per secend
00:18:26 <coppro> or simply because of the amount of buildup required to deliver a surprise means that changing the order of the sentence won't move the surprise
00:19:06 <Phantom__Hoover> doesthiswork, or it might be one of the three alternate explanations just presented
00:19:24 <Bike> is there data involved here
00:19:34 <oerjan> is this true of japanese which has a lot in the opposite order of western languages
00:24:39 <doesthiswork> oerjan: japanese is in topic comment order is indeed different from english's subject predicate order
00:25:06 <doesthiswork> but what I"m talking about are the situations where there is more than one phasing availible
00:27:30 <doesthiswork> like "the cub scouts will hold the car wash despite the rain" vs "despite the rain the car wash will still be held by the cub scouts" vs "the car wash will still be held by the cubscouts despite the rain"
00:28:09 <doesthiswork> they communicate the same thing but seem to imply a different preceding conversation
00:29:10 <Phantom__Hoover> well, except in that i'd expect it to be phrased "despite the rain the cub scouts will still hold the car wash"
00:32:06 <doesthiswork> were you expecting the latter to sound less natural?
00:33:32 <Phantom__Hoover> well like you've given an example but you've done nothing to convince me that this supposed effect favours the former phrasing
00:34:08 <doesthiswork> different phrasings would be favored in different situations
00:34:10 <Bike> no, seriously, does this effect actually exist
00:37:21 <doesthiswork> bike: it will take me awhile to find you a citation because it was in my textbook
00:42:38 <kmc> great, nvidia GL library seems to map itself with rwx permissions
00:43:20 <Phantom__Hoover> doesthiswork, (sorry, but with linguistics especially people keep presenting dumb armchair speculation)
00:43:45 <Bike> information content of language is an interesting thing but rather easy to fuck up
00:44:00 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1l7baq/creating_a_user_from_the_web_problem/
00:44:58 <doesthiswork> I can find a prescriptive recomendation to put old knowledge first, but I haven't found proof that that is what people do in natural speach
00:45:23 <Bike> yeah, it sounds like the kind of thing that would take a big corpus and a lot of boring interpretation by human researches
00:45:34 <Bike> researches* not that linguists don't do that, i mean
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00:47:17 <Bike> the most baffling part of that link is that there are serious, helpful responses
00:48:02 <doesthiswork> I believe that people put the old information first when ordering clauses, as much as the syntax of their language allows.
00:51:32 <doesthiswork> because a professor of linguistics assumed so, and because it seems a reasonable thing for people to do for a variety of reasons.
00:52:54 <doesthiswork> yes, and I don't have the statistical tools to prove it
00:54:23 <doesthiswork> english has quite fixed word order, so some orderings that would work in spanish are not natural english sentences
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00:58:11 <Sgeo> Now this is just depressing, in a 'failing to learn' way
00:58:11 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1l7baq/creating_a_user_from_the_web_problem/cbwj0r2
00:58:22 <Bike> you're actually reading it
00:58:51 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try this http://www.dvwa.co.uk/
01:06:11 <doesthiswork> bike: no proof here either but references to people who first assumed it http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/applying-information-theory-to-linguistics-1010.html
01:07:41 <Bike> it's positively lovely how bad these sorts of articles always are
01:07:49 <Bike> "information theory — the discipline that gave us digital communication"
01:08:25 <Bike> i think most people make the one and kind of give up after that
01:08:28 <Bike> it's just, too obvious.
01:09:18 <kmc> are there any Coq papers in PNAS
01:10:10 <Bike> i don't think th- oh, i get it
01:11:49 <Bike> « our “open-source” large-scale (∼1 L/h) 129Xe polarizer for clinical, preclinical, and materials NMR and MRI research» i love the future
01:12:59 <Bike> um i have no idea.
01:13:28 <Bike> http://www.pnas.org/content/110/35/14150.abstract
01:13:41 <Bike> there's a paper called "Core foundations of abstract geometry" that isn't math. awesome.
01:13:53 <kmc> is it about Core Foundation
01:15:59 <Bike> "In this study, we performed continuous electroencephalography in rats undergoing experimental cardiac arrest " jesus christ
01:16:44 <Bike> those cute little rats!!
01:18:00 <Bike> are you suggesting i give ancaps heart attacks to see what their brains do
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01:22:39 <oerjan> i'd imagine ancaps would be more fun to put in a large labyrinth with various resources.
01:23:05 <oerjan> assuming it's the abbreviation i think it is
01:25:01 <oerjan> this guy can head the project http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_Mittelmind
01:29:35 <Bike> mittelmind is one of my favorite characters
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02:19:15 <kmc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/keepassx/+bug/1214844 *facepalm*
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02:21:36 <^v> Any characters in your password that are not found in codepage 1252 are silently squashed to '?'
02:21:49 <^v> thats fucking hilarious
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02:24:11 * ^v slaps variable with a trout
02:24:53 <^v> (({("XSRX;GSA@uGS0Xd;]"):gsub("(.)",function(c) return string.char(49+((string.byte(c)*1337)%75)):gsub("_"," ") end)})[1].." "):rep(20)
02:24:53 <^v> <-- put this into a lua prompt
02:25:04 <^v> i maed some obufuscated lua cod
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02:42:18 <Bike> "Skimming an old report on Snobol" at least someone on the internet understands me.
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03:09:47 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/jw9i6s
03:09:50 <Sgeo> Didn't seem to do much
03:10:19 <Bike> whaddya mean, it says returned zero right there
03:11:28 <Bike> perfectly respectable thing to return
03:13:58 <Bike> hm, gsub apparently treats string patterns as, well, literal strings, rather than interpreting them as regexes.
03:14:01 <Bike> is that the problem?
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03:42:37 <shachaf> kmc: https://plus.google.com/108532745084733145449/posts/gzLPnqH8HHH
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04:43:36 <c33333> Looking for esoteric, nirgle, fusion or mikeh
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05:53:56 <lekrel> I've decided to put up an interesting challenge. It has more to do with cryptography but also related to programming. Here is what you ought to do in order to complete it: 1. Generate a 192-bit triple DES ciphertext using your alias as the key and plaintext for the encryption, 2. Write a Malbolge program that would output the ciphertext
05:54:01 <lekrel> 3. PM me the key (a.k.a your alias) along with the malbolge program source
05:54:04 <lekrel> You'll need an interpreter/compiler for the malbolge part. Good luck.
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07:03:46 <kmc> shachaf: :D
07:05:12 <kmc> it was actually built in the 30s though
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07:20:43 <olsner> which means that during the 1960s, it was (already) built
07:23:27 <kmc> "For security reasons, the effect of MALLOC_CHECK_ is disabled by default for set-user-ID and set-group-ID programs. However, if the file /etc/suid-debug exists (the content of the file is irrelevant), then MALLOC_CHECK_ also has an effect for set-user-ID and set-group-ID programs."
07:23:51 <Fiora> huh, why would that be?
07:24:06 <Fiora> disabling it for SUID I guess?
07:25:05 <kmc> I guess so that setuid programs can be compiled with checking enabled and an attacker can't disable it as part of exploiting a security hole
07:25:41 <Fiora> but didn't that say it was disabled for setuid?
07:25:52 <kmc> the environment variable is disabled
07:26:04 <kmc> sorry, I did not paste the whole context
07:26:23 <Fiora> and the environment variable lets you toggle it?
07:26:40 <kmc> this is from mallopt(3); programs can call this function to change malloc behavior, but also some of the settings have env vars
07:27:12 <kmc> but for setuid programs the env vars are ignored
07:28:39 <kmc> Openwall has no setuid binaries ^_^
07:29:12 <kmc> they got the Linux kernel to provide an ICMP socket type so that ping would not be setuid
07:29:21 <kmc> it's a security-focused linux distribution
07:31:55 <lekrel> I've decided to put up an interesting challenge. It has more to do with cryptography but also related to programming. Here is what you ought to do in order to complete it: 1. Generate a 192-bit triple DES ciphertext using your alias as the key and plaintext for the encryption, 2. Write a Malbolge program that would output the ciphertext
07:32:00 <lekrel> 3. PM me the key (a.k.a your alias) along with the malbolge program source
07:32:05 <lekrel> You'll need an interpreter/compiler for the malbolge part. Good luck.
07:38:51 <coppro> Does anyone know a data structure for representing transitive closures?
07:39:41 <coppro> e.g. I want to represent that a < b and b < c and efficiently find that a < c
07:41:19 <coppro> I would ideally like constant time, up to the underlying (tree, hash, etc.) data structure
07:44:41 <kmc> what about just storing the transitive closure as an adjacency matrix
07:47:33 <kmc> https://thoughtstreams.io/glyph/string-trepanation/
08:05:05 <elliott> lekrel: are you mafingre/etc.?
08:05:39 <elliott> hmm same country but different ISP
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08:19:04 <fizzie> kmc: dbus-driven mechanisms to give ping CAP_NET_RAW hth
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08:47:29 <fizzie> "Too many workers requested. The job requires 44, but the cluster with profile 'Triton_latest_local' supports maximum of 4."
09:21:08 <Deewiant> Stay away from Triton, I've been trying to get practically anything to run there for weeks.
09:23:25 <kmc> attempt no landings there
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09:31:11 <fizzie> All these other wo^H^Hclusters are okay, though?
09:32:54 <fizzie> Also I don't understand: I ran the MDCS thing with matlabpool(44) and -- according to squeue -- it tried to allocate 44 *nodes*; I tried again with matlabpool(4) and it ran on one node with 4 workers; so I went with 8 and 12, and those mapped into 8 and 12 nodes again.
09:33:26 <fizzie> I guess maybe the "nodes" field of squeue has different meanings for pending and running jobs.
09:33:53 <fizzie> Based on http://sprunge.us/XFRW anyway.
09:34:13 <fizzie> (This is going to take ages parallelized to 8 tasks only.)
09:35:48 <fizzie> It runs with --exclusive, don't know if that makes a difference.
09:35:49 <Deewiant> Maybe the matlab stuff does strange things.
09:36:07 <fizzie> It's certainly very flaky.
09:36:38 <fizzie> I think a lot of people are running MATLAB jobs outside MDCS, which, as far as I know, is explicitly against the license terms.
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13:03:15 <Roujo> Say I want to put in a multi-line script into HackEgo... How do I do that?
13:03:26 <Roujo> Can you echo multi-line files?
13:04:24 <boily> `run echo -e "My hovercraft\nIt is full of eels."
13:04:25 <HackEgo> My hovercraft \ It is full of eels.
13:04:45 <boily> Roujo: yes, it works. the «\» is a newline indicator.
13:06:10 <boily> also, there's a command to slurp up a script from the web or something, but I can't remember it.
13:06:22 <boily> Gregor: is it still possible to do something like that ↑?
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13:10:24 <Roujo> Hmmm... My changes won't go through =/
13:10:32 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
13:10:51 <Roujo> `run echo Cats are cool, and should be illegal. > wisdom/cat
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19:23:26 <zzo38> Gregor: Thank you for fixing it.
19:23:35 <oerjan> ah, i was afraid Gregor had sacrificed himself for the bots
19:24:18 <zzo38> Do you like the Imakuni?'s card?
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19:25:35 <oerjan> i just learned of its existence, also i don't play any form of pokemon game.
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19:31:49 <ais523> Happy Australian Mailman Mailing List Reminders Day!
19:31:53 -!- ais523 has left.
19:36:29 <oerjan> are you not familiar with this esteemed holiday
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19:49:04 <zzo38> Aura of Confusion (a class feature of aberration saver) also wants you to play it as a basic pokemon. However, you can't!!! Too bad!!!
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20:32:02 <zzo38> Now make up your own Pokemon card puzzle!
20:33:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Now that HackEgo is back up, you could `danddreclist.
20:34:12 <zzo38> I already did (when it wasn't up), but I will do again just in case.
20:34:17 <HackEgo> danddreclist 41: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
20:37:20 <zzo38> (Nothing stops me from using `danddreclist when HackEgo isn't on, although then it won't work perfectly. Anyone who is notified on messages starting with `danddreclist is still notified, though.)
20:37:46 <shachaf> zzo38: If I do that, I'll get double-notified.
20:38:40 <zzo38> I am saying, it can be done in place of the other way if you prefer, since that would work even if HackEgo is down.
20:38:46 <zzo38> You don't have to.
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20:46:23 <nooodl> @tell boily new danddreclist: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
20:54:51 <zzo38> Is there an easy way in UNIX command-line to convert all filenames to lowercase like you can in Windows command-line?
20:56:21 <shachaf> Perhaps: rename 'tr/A-Z/a-z/' *
20:56:34 <shachaf> Depends on what "UNIX command-line" is.
20:57:04 <zzo38> O, I didn't know about that command.
20:57:30 <Bike> man rename actually has rename 'y/A-Z/a-z/' * as an example
20:59:01 <zzo38> OK, yes that can work. In Windows it is: for /f %i in ('dir/l/b') do ren %i %i or something like that I think.
21:00:08 <shachaf> Of course, Windows filesystems aren't case-sensitive.
21:02:04 <zzo38> Yes, I know, and such a thing works due to that.
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21:03:38 <shachaf> But you have to be careful when your filesystem isn't. What if you have two files, "A" and "a"?
21:04:49 <zzo38> Of course then it won't work.
21:05:12 <zzo38> Someone has once asked me how to convert all of their filenames into lowercase on a Windows computer and I came up with this command.
21:08:45 <pikhq> shachaf: FWIW Windows *filesystems* are perfectly sane case-wise.
21:09:03 <pikhq> It's just Win32 that's case insensitive.
21:09:20 <Roujo> Oh. So NTFS is, but Windows doesn't care?
21:09:36 <pikhq> FAT32 with long file names is the same way.
21:10:45 <pikhq> Sorry, FAT with long file names in general.
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21:43:53 <zzo38> And if you have any comments/questions/complains about the Dungeons&Dragons game I am recording, you can tell me that too, please.
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22:04:03 <doesthiswork> Schematic tables are a pretty cool way of handling branching. http://www.subtextual.org/subtext2.html
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22:14:35 <Bike> so uh i forgot how to use tar. if i have a .tar i should be able to do just 'tar t filename' to get a list of what's in it, right?
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22:17:04 <Bike> oh, no, i need f. damn.
22:19:42 <Koen_> the bonus question at our final exam was exctracting a file from a corrupted .tar.gz archive
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22:58:45 <shachaf> Bike: hm what are some good adjunctions i don't know about
22:59:54 <Bike> up adjunctions
23:00:10 <Bike> (analogous to left adjunctions)
23:00:57 <Bike> You know damn well what I mean.
23:01:05 <shachaf> in galois connections people call the left adjoint the "lower adjoint" and the right adjoint the "upper adjoint" hth
23:01:36 <oerjan> shachaf: did you know that quotienting out the commutator is a functor from groups to commutative groups that is adjoint to the inclusion in the reverse direction? (iirc)
23:04:02 <shachaf> google finds results with "abelian group" when you search for "commutative group"
23:05:11 <shachaf> maybe it's a right adjoint
23:05:26 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
23:05:36 <oerjan> i don't think my brain is up to figuring out the diagrams at the moment.
23:05:45 <shachaf> oerjan: what do i pay you for hth
23:06:34 <oerjan> it's ok i think i found it on wikipedia
23:06:58 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_subgroup#Abelianization
23:08:31 <shachaf> i don't know anything about groups :'(
23:09:18 <oerjan> that could be a problem
23:09:37 <shachaf> how do i become not such an ignoramus twh
23:09:49 <oerjan> read a group theory textbook
23:10:19 <oerjan> i dunno it's been something like 20 years since i took the course...
23:10:33 <shachaf> i'm sure i'll be abel to find one
23:12:24 <oerjan> i wouldn't be surprised if this adjunction holds more generally for quotients/inclusions between algebras with extra equations added (e.g. xy=yx to get abelian groups)
23:13:02 <shachaf> is there a nice categorical way of talking about algebras with equations
23:13:55 <oerjan> hm... i recall they're related to monads. like the list monad to monoids etc.
23:14:19 <oerjan> maybe, i don't clearly remember that term.
23:14:25 <shachaf> like http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/module+over+a+monad ?
23:15:28 <oerjan> sorry my brain cannot help you there
23:24:41 <HackEgo> slist 8/31: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:34:27 <Bike> uh, you're not on the slist, dude. you ain't got right to interfere in slist affairs.
23:34:51 <Bike> so sayeth the treaty
23:39:08 <zzo38> Treaty? It is a suggestion, not a treaty, isn't it?
23:53:00 <oerjan> `run echo 'The Treaty on `lists treats how to `list our treats.' >wisdom/treaty
23:56:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hack: not found