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03:41:53 <Bike> i only just realized C lets you allocate arrays on the stack with runtime lengths
03:45:15 <Bike> yeah i guess that's it
03:46:42 <Bike> i was wondering about alloca and realized it would be like a variable declaration, and i tried it and heyyyyy
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03:53:39 <Bike> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Variable-Length.html forward parameter declarations. very exciting.
03:56:56 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[10000000]; a[sizeof a-1] = 1; return 0; }
03:57:03 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[1000000000]; a[sizeof a-1] = 1; return 0; }
03:57:34 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[1e12]; a[sizeof a-1] = 1; return 0; }
03:57:35 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:19: error: size of array ‘a’ has non-integer type
03:57:42 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[(size_t)1e12]; a[sizeof a-1] = 1; return 0; }
03:57:43 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:22: error: ‘size_t’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ /tmp/a.c:1:22: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in \ /tmp/a.c:1:29: error: expected ‘]’ before numeric constant \ /tmp/a.c:1:36: error: ‘a’ undeclared (first use in this funct
03:57:54 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[(long)1e12]; a[sizeof a-1] = 1; return 0; }
03:58:32 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[(long)1e12]; a[sizeof a-1] = rand(); return a[sizeof a-1]; }
03:58:42 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[(long)1e7]; a[sizeof a-1] = rand(); return a[sizeof a-1]; }
03:58:49 <Jafet> `cc int main() { char a[(long)1e6]; a[sizeof a-1] = rand(); return a[sizeof a-1]; }
03:58:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ulimit: not found
03:59:03 <Jafet> `bash -c "ulimit -s"
03:59:04 <HackEgo> bash: - : invalid option \ Usage:bash [GNU long option] [option] ... \ bash [GNU long option] [option] script-file ... \ GNU long options: \ --debug \ --debugger \ --dump-po-strings \ --dump-strings \ --help \ --init-file \ --login \ --noediting \ --noprofile \ --norc \ --posix \ --protected \ --rcfile \ --restricted \ --verbose \
03:59:09 <Jafet> `run bash -c "ulimit -s"
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04:39:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" > /tmp/a.c && gcc /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
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06:32:51 <Jafet> I just beat icacls
06:33:18 <Jafet> NTFS would be pretty on-topic here
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07:05:07 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8h 21m ago: I'm just reading your haskell golfing tips and i'd just like to point out that c/=5||odd x can be shortened to 1>0 hth
07:05:41 <oerjan> also i made a couple attempts on the two latest problems
07:07:01 <oerjan> (i guess i also tried PATH but just found a solution of the same lengths as everyone else, it's probably pretty unique)
07:08:40 <mroman_> fizzie: Oh. I see teebee got 22B
07:09:01 <mroman_> teebee is recently golfing *a lot*
07:10:13 <fizzie> I noticed. I don't have any obvious below-25 ideas.
07:14:46 <fizzie> (Possibly what I have is a local minimum, and needs something quite different to get smaller.)
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07:24:26 <fizzie> A hypothetical deepzip2'ing subtraction and a m[p^ shorthand would get me to 21, but neither of those two things exist, and I can't think of a way to use m[^p aka MP without including any extra instructions.
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07:26:52 <fizzie> Aw, now it times out. (It was right on the border there already, to be fair.)
07:27:36 <fizzie> Well, maybe a working 25 and a too-slow 23 will have to be enough, I should be doing other stuff.
07:32:21 <fizzie> (Or perhaps I just need a better cumulative-sum idiom, I can't seem to write that short.)
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07:55:58 <mroman_> have you tried submitting the too-slow one multiple times?
07:56:11 <mroman_> execution times fluctuates depending on server-load and stuff
07:56:18 <fizzie> I tried twice, I think it's just too slow.
07:57:34 <mroman_> if MP produces the wrong order
07:57:42 <mroman_> maybe you can change the order of the list you're mapping over
07:58:00 <mroman_> but if that requires a <- (reverse list) etc. you might as well just write m[p^
07:58:13 <fizzie> Yeah, I couldn't figure out to do it without a <-.
08:00:55 <mroman_> teebee's execution times suggests that there must be a really efficient way of doing it
08:01:30 <fizzie> My 27-character one had the same execution time.
08:01:51 <mroman_> There's C! and !C for that matter
08:01:54 <fizzie> That one used !C but there was a lot of space wasted with PP'y stuff.
08:02:35 <fizzie> This new one is really stupid, which probably explains the execution time.
08:03:51 <fizzie> The 25- and 23-length ones.
08:04:45 <oerjan> fizzie: did you get the message someone sent you to change the wiki captcha?
08:04:58 <oerjan> it seems to me that spammers are still managing to register
08:05:36 <fizzie> oerjan: Right, I should probably do something about it.
08:05:56 <fizzie> oerjan: No spam articles, though, just user accounts? Or do those not show up in recent changes?
08:07:51 <oerjan> just accounts, i think ais523 managed to improve the filter for the articles
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08:09:20 <mroman_> that's pretty bad of me I guess
08:10:48 <oerjan> last time they got any actual spam through seems to be sep 25
08:12:02 <fizzie> mroman_: I have a 9-character "X terms from A006519" core, let's call it ZZZ, but I don't know of any good tricks for the partial sums, so I just wrapped the whole thing inside ,500ro{ZZZ++}m[p^ which makes it 14+9=23 and also too slow. (The fast 28-length one used a manual PP+.JPp inside a !C block to make a counter to replace the range, and simply .+'d to the previous sum, but that took many ...
08:12:08 <fizzie> ... characters. And same for a similar thing that mapped over a range and accumulated with pP.+Pp and swapped in the end.)
08:14:27 <mroman_> you could use 500{ZZZ++}GOp^
08:14:36 <mroman_> which would be 2 bytes shorter
08:14:43 <mroman_> but it's probably not faster :)
08:16:07 <mroman_> <num>ro<block>m[ is <num><block>GO
08:17:57 <blsqbot> {{1} {2} {3} {4} {5} {6} {1 2} {2 3} {3 4} {4 5} {5 6} {1 2 3} {2 3 4} {3 4 5} {
08:18:17 <fizzie> mroman_: The documentation says GO does 1\/R@ but I guess that's r@ in reality?
08:19:50 <blsqbot> {{} {1} {2} {1 2} {3} {1 3} {2 3} {1 2 3} {4} {1 4} {2 4} {1 2 4} {3 4} {1 3 4}
08:19:52 <fizzie> Well, it's 21 characters but too slow. :)
08:20:44 <fizzie> At least I managed to improve my barely-working 25 to a 23 with that GO trick.
08:21:12 <mroman_> {1 2 3 4 5 6}=>{1 {1 2} {1 2 3 4} ...} is what you'd need
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08:21:18 <mroman_> but I don't know of any way to do that
08:21:22 <mroman_> and it probably will be slow :)
08:21:35 <mroman_> (because the resulting list will be huge I guess)
08:22:03 <mroman_> It really sounds like using C! or !C
08:22:19 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid argume
08:22:27 <blsqbot> {287 177 109 67 41 25 15 9 5 3 1 1}
08:22:59 <blsqbot> {233 144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1}
08:23:15 <blsqbot> {1536 768 384 192 96 48 24 12 6 3 2 1}
08:24:00 <blsqbot> {1024 512 256 128 64 32 16 8 4 2 1 1}
08:24:27 <mroman_> fizzie: But that would indeed require PP stuff for the counter :(
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08:25:54 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6}{[-}5!C#s
08:25:55 <blsqbot> {{1 2 3 4 5 6} {2 3 4 5 6} {3 4 5 6} {4 5 6} {5 6} {6}}
08:26:00 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6}{[~}5!C#s
08:26:23 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6}{~]}5!C#s
08:26:24 <blsqbot> {{1 2 3 4 5 6} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3} {1 2} {1}}
08:26:33 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6}{~]}5!CCL
08:26:34 <blsqbot> {{1 2 3 4 5 6} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3} {1 2} {1}}
08:26:37 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6}{~]}5C!CL
08:26:38 <blsqbot> {{1} {1 2} {1 2 3} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4 5 6}}
08:26:52 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6}{~]}5C!CL)++
08:27:45 <mroman_> just generate the list with the 500 items
08:28:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40566&oldid=40564 * Oerjan * (+170) some proofreading
08:29:18 <blsqbot> {1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55}
08:29:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:29:42 <mroman_> but it might be too slow still :(
08:31:03 <fizzie> ",500" plus 9 characters for the list + "{~]}500C!CL)++" is also longer than my current-best.
08:33:02 <oerjan> doesn't burlesque have scanl
08:33:15 <mroman_> 500ro{~]}499C!CL)++ runs in 0.4s on anagol though
08:34:35 <mroman_> oerjan: I don't think so, no
08:35:19 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (./) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (./) Invalid argume
08:35:28 <fizzie> > scanl1 (+) [1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8]
08:35:33 <fizzie> That would certainly help.
08:35:41 <oerjan> mroman_: can burlesque do fixpoints? (i guess not)
08:36:01 <mroman_> oerjan: finding fixpoints?
08:36:02 <oerjan> fizzie: well it's what i used in my length 55 haskell version
08:38:46 <oerjan> mroman_: you can write scanl (+) x xs as fix (zipWith (+) xs . (x:)) or thereabouts
08:39:05 <oerjan> > fix (zipWith (+) [1..] . (0:))
08:39:06 <lambdabot> [1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,276...
08:39:29 <blsqbot> {1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55}
08:39:50 <mroman_> but it doesn't have a fix builtin
08:40:42 <blsqbot> {144 288 432 576 720 864 1008 1152 1296 1440 0 0 0 0 0}
08:40:50 <blsqbot> {{144 288 432 576 720 864 1008 1152 1296 1440 0 0 0 0 0} {89 178 267 356 445 534
08:40:58 <blsqbot> {{3 6 9 12 15 0} {2 4 6 8 10 0} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4 5}}
08:41:08 <blsqbot> {{0 1 4 7 10 13} {0 2 4 6 8 10} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4 5}}
08:41:32 <blsqbot> {{0 1 4 7 10 13 16} {0 2 4 6 8 10} {1 2 3 4 5}}
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08:41:48 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 20):
08:41:52 <blsqbot> {{1 3 6 9 12 15 18} {1 3 5 7 9 11} {1 2 3 4 5}}
08:42:43 <blsqbot> {{1 3 6 10 14 18 22 26} {1 3 6 9 12 15 18} {1 3 5 7 9 11} {1 2 3 4 5}}
08:43:38 <blsqbot> {{1 3 6 10 15 21 27 33 39 45} {1 3 6 10 15 20 25 30 35} {1 3 6 10 14 18 22 26} {
08:43:51 <blsqbot> {{1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210 231 253 276 30
08:44:22 <blsqbot> {{1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210 231 253 276 30
08:44:48 <mroman_> !blsq q1{{0+]1R@?+}c!}{L[20.<}w!
08:44:49 <blsqbot> {1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210}
08:45:12 <mroman_> !blsq q1{{0+]1R@?+}c!}{}w!10.+
08:45:12 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
08:45:19 <mroman_> !blsq q1{{0+]1R@?+}c!}{1}w!10.+
08:45:20 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:45:23 <mroman_> !blsq q1{{0+]1R@?+}c!}{1}w!20.+
08:45:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:45:29 <mroman_> it's not lazy anymore though
08:45:55 <mroman_> !blsq q1{{0+]1R@?+}c!}{L[200000000.<}w!10.+
08:45:56 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:46:02 <mroman_> !blsq q1{{0+]1R@?+}c!}{L[25.<}w!
08:46:03 <blsqbot> {1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210 231 253 276 300
08:46:57 <mroman_> this would make for a good new command
08:47:29 <mroman_> more like <continueAsLong>
08:48:34 <mroman_> but not sure how to implement that
08:49:07 <mroman_> other than using init + continuation plus map
08:52:03 <mroman_> fizzie: ideally you would do <first term>{<next term>?+}<num times>C!
08:55:35 <fizzie> That's pretty much what my "fast" thing does, except for needing the index for <next term>. (I did try something zi-based, but that went nowhere.)
08:57:10 <fizzie> oerjan: 55 is quite impressive, it took me 83 characters with all the boilerplate of going from [1,2,3,4] to a main function that can print 1 2 3 4. Though maybe there are well-established tricks there.
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09:05:09 <oerjan> fizzie: that boilerplate is well-established, it's main=mapM print
09:05:52 <oerjan> (mentioned on mroman_'s tip page)
09:06:40 <oerjan> hm actually just the mapM part
09:09:47 <oerjan> i am somewhat proud of the way i got the infinite [1,2,1,4,...] list though
09:10:39 <oerjan> (defined as l in 19 characters)
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09:12:25 <fizzie> 22 characters here to do that, even without counting an "import Data.Bits"; I think I'm overly fond of the way I did it in my Forth thing.
09:13:49 <oerjan> actually 22 characters is what it was in my first version
09:14:46 <fizzie> Probably someone with a late-alphabet nick is going to make a 30-character Forth version; I've looked at some examples of those, and have no idea why they even work. There's stuff like "[begin] ..." with no loop-termination in sight, and at least the way I run gforth locally balks on that.
09:16:16 <oerjan> elliott_: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?A006520
09:16:28 <oerjan> some are doing it in burlesque, i did it in haskell
09:16:56 <oerjan> oh i guess fizzie also did forth
09:17:11 <fizzie> Yes, with better success. Possibly because no-one else has tried yet.
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09:18:13 <fizzie> And I guess my C solution is only one character off.
09:18:30 <oerjan> > length "import Data.Bits"
09:18:44 <fizzie> Don't forget the newline. (I guess those count?)
09:18:52 <oerjan> looks like that's costing you a lot
09:19:12 <oerjan> i'm assuming they do, except a final one maybe
09:19:25 <oerjan> (i submitted mine as a one-liner though)
09:19:39 <fizzie> Have to get busy to catch a plane now.
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09:22:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KarinValentine * New user account
09:23:12 <oerjan> YOU DIDN'T FIX THE CAPTCHA FIRST
09:23:38 <elliott_> I guess only in the sense that britannica.com dates back to 1768
09:27:31 <elliott_> "Windows 10" you're kidding me
09:28:19 <elliott_> it is telling that searching that name produces http://www.infoworld.com/article/2613504/microsoft-windows/microsoft-windows-microsoft-skips-too-good-windows-9-jumps-to-windows-10.html near the top
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09:30:20 <oerjan> the first rule of commercial version number schemes is that you have to change them frequently
09:30:30 <mroman_> I didn't even consider mapM print as something special
09:30:36 <mroman_> because it appears so natural to do that
09:30:48 <elliott_> oerjan: okay but they already had windows 7 which wasn't the seventh version with any reasonable counting
09:31:39 <elliott_> well, it's not as bad as xbox one
09:33:19 <Patashu> has anyone made a 'because windows 7 8 9' joke yet
09:34:43 <oerjan> windows 10 now supporting cannibalism
09:52:15 <mroman_> Somebody should standardize LON
09:54:05 <mroman_> {'foo' : {'age': 19, 'name' : 'Hans' } } vs (foo((age 19)(name "Hans")))
09:54:36 <mroman_> (foo (age 19) (name "Hans")) actually
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10:28:53 <fizzie> oerjan: I'll do it in the evening from the hotel, maybe.
10:30:25 <fizzie> Or tomorrow evening at the latest.
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10:58:47 <Jafet> http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/48632/can-a-night-elf-swim-naked-in-a-volcano
11:02:20 <boily> it's at least proven to be feasible according to 3.5E.
11:05:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JasperZwujylt * New user account
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11:44:38 <myname> JasoerZwujylt sound so non-spammy,it's incredible
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13:52:32 <mroman_> why the fuck is my ajax responseText empty
13:52:43 <mroman_> the browser does make the request on my webserver
13:52:50 <mroman_> but it refuses to read the response
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14:07:11 <mroman_> also my apache2 doesn't want to send my CORS header
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14:21:01 <GeekDude> if you ever want a fun problem, try piping sound from espeak to the browser directly. ie, php passthru instead of write to a file then serving the file
14:21:15 <GeekDude> I say "fun", but what I mean is that it just doesn't work :/
14:21:30 <GeekDude> it kind of works, but it's really really broken
14:21:37 <GeekDude> and inconsistent between browsers
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14:38:27 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/XVIdgaT9
14:39:13 <mroman_> by that logic a 5 char password is super secure
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14:41:33 <mroman_> I don't get extra points for NULL bytes in my password?
14:42:00 <mroman_> I like spaces in my passwords
14:42:16 <mroman_> sometimes my password is a whitespace program .
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14:44:03 <HackEgo> password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
14:44:53 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR Who told you this?
14:45:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RochellWootten * New user account
14:57:26 <mroman_> You mean the pre-processor thingy from AnotherTest?
14:58:52 <mroman_> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/HELP_%28Preprocessor%29 that is)
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15:22:39 <elliott_> http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2014/computers_are_made_of_metal.html this article is upsetting
15:22:50 <elliott_> "scala's implementation is bad therefore fp is slow"
15:23:56 <elliott_> I guess I shouldn't link articles just because they're irritating just to spread my suffering.
15:23:56 <Bike> psh, several parts of computers aren't metal
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15:36:49 <mroman_> If people cared about speed applications would be much faster than they wore 1998 on Windows 98
15:37:29 <mroman_> Starting eclipse really convinces me that stuff has gotten faster with faster CPUs .
15:39:17 <mroman_> I guess it's the same deal as faster trains
15:39:25 <mroman_> faster trains doesn't cut down on commuting times
15:39:40 <mroman_> it just makes people commute to places more far away
15:40:38 <mroman_> (Although lot's of stuff is really fast today)
15:41:47 <AndoDaan> Just watched a talk on fortran. They went 3 years past the deadline to make the most efficient fortran compiler they could.
15:46:52 <AndoDaan> I got an email on burlesqu progressed. c!... what's that all about.
15:47:41 <blsqbot> {1 {1 {1 {1 {1 {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10}} {1} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10}} {1 {1} {1 2 3
15:48:33 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
15:48:44 <blsqbot> {{1} 1 {1 2} 1 2 {1 3} 1 3 {1 2 4} 1 2 4 {1 5} 1 5 {1 2 3 6} 1 2 3 6 {1 7} 1 7 {
15:49:38 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: ([~) Invalid arguments! **}
15:50:01 <blsqbot> {1 {1} 1 2 {1 2} 1 3 {1 3} 1 2 4 {1 2 4} 1 5 {1 5} 1 2 3 6 {1 2 3 6} 1 7 {1 7} 1
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17:12:17 <AndoDaan> place feels so empty with out bslq bot
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18:19:15 <Melvar> That certainly used to work, I wonder what broke the coloring there.
18:20:41 <Melvar> It’s meant for labels apparently.
18:21:07 <Melvar> Possibly only certain kinds, since you can’t decide their equality within the language.
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18:59:55 <mroman_> Then there's always a challenge
19:00:03 <mroman_> what's the "pm" command good for?
19:00:37 <mroman_> but not the trivial cases with integers
19:00:48 <mroman_> the ultimative edge case for it
19:03:40 <mroman_> also try being bored in a psychiatric clinic while sleep deprived
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19:05:58 <mroman_> fizzie: Could you add a time stamp to the scores?
19:06:14 <mroman_> so I know when it was last updated
19:06:37 <elliott_> (well, "psychiatric clinic" may give excessively straitjacket type connotations, but it was a mental health facility)
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19:07:39 <mroman_> ironically it just worsens the symptonms
19:07:49 -!- incomprehensibly has joined.
19:08:00 <mroman_> or whatever is the correct spelling for that
19:08:01 <elliott_> well, I'm not going to universalise my experience.
19:11:22 <Bike> it's a hard word
19:11:31 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*4>(-)*5)*4>([(-)*6[-]])*-1
19:11:32 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -31.43, score 3.50, rank 47/47
19:11:43 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*4>(-)*5)*4>([(-)*6[+]])*-1
19:11:43 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -31.95, score 3.41, rank 47/47 (--)
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19:12:02 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*4>(-)*5)*4>(>[(-)*6[-]])*-1
19:12:02 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -24.90, score 6.17, rank 47/47 (--)
19:12:06 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*4>(-)*5)*4>(>[(-)*6[+]])*-1
19:12:07 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -25.12, score 6.11, rank 47/47 (--)
19:12:20 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*4>(-)*5)*4([(-)*6[-]]>)*-1
19:12:21 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -17.00, score 7.58, rank 47/47 (--)
19:12:26 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*4>(-)*5)*4([(-)*9[-]]>)*-1
19:12:28 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -17.74, score 7.16, rank 47/47 (--)
19:12:45 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*2>(-)*2)*4([(-)*6[-]]>)*-1
19:12:47 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -14.83, score 8.20, rank 47/47 (--)
19:13:18 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*20>(-)*20)*4([(-)*6[-]]>)*-1
19:13:19 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -17.02, score 8.33, rank 47/47 (--)
19:13:27 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox ((+)*10>(-)*10)*4([(-)*6[-]]>)*-1
19:13:28 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -17.14, score 7.83, rank 47/47 (--)
19:13:35 <mroman_> it's getting harder to get on the hill
19:13:41 <Bike> «from συν- (sun-, “together”) + πίπτω (píptō, “I fall”)», that's fairly metal
19:14:23 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(++++<-----<)*4(>)*8([(-)*6[-]]>)*-1
19:14:24 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -18.00, score 6.84, rank 47/47 (--)
19:14:32 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(++++<-----<)*4(>)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:14:33 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -18.02, score 7.11, rank 47/47 (--)
19:14:38 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(++++<-----<)*4(>)*9([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:14:39 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -22.10, score 6.88, rank 47/47 (--)
19:14:56 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++++++<-----<)*4(>)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:14:56 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -20.86, score 7.01, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:07 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++++++<-------<)*4(>)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:08 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -19.98, score 7.37, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:17 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++++++<-------<)*4(>-)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:18 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -19.57, score 7.49, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:24 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++++++<-------<)*4(>(-)*10)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:26 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -17.57, score 7.76, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:30 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++++++<-------<)*4(>(-)*100)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:31 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -21.00, score 7.35, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:38 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++++++<-------<)*4(>(-)*50)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:38 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -19.45, score 7.55, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:48 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>)*9(+++<---<)*4(>(-)*50)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:49 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -20.71, score 7.46, rank 47/47 (--)
19:15:54 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>--)*9(+++<---<)*4(>(-)*50)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:15:55 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -20.29, score 7.55, rank 47/47 (--)
19:16:21 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>-)*9(+++<----<)*4(>(-)*50)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:16:22 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -19.21, score 7.99, rank 47/47 (--)
19:16:27 <mroman_> !bfjoust fox (>-)*9(+++++<----<)*4(>(-)*50)*8([(-)*6[-].]>)*-1
19:16:28 <zemhill> mroman_.fox: points -19.62, score 7.78, rank 47/47 (--)
19:17:21 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>-)*9(>[(+)*9[-].])*-1
19:17:22 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -9.57, score 13.01, rank 45/47
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19:18:00 <mroman_> now cupnoodles went to rank 4
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19:18:36 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>-)*9(>[(+)*9[-].]+)*-1
19:18:37 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -6.02, score 15.56, rank 41/47 (+4)
19:18:43 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>-)*9(>[(+)*9[-].](+)*5)*-1
19:18:44 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -10.26, score 12.97, rank 45/47 (-4)
19:18:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>-)*9(>[(+)*9[-].](+)*2)*-1
19:18:48 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -7.57, score 14.68, rank 44/47 (+1)
19:18:51 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>-)*9(>[(+)*9[-].](+)*1)*-1
19:18:52 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -6.02, score 15.56, rank 41/47 (+3)
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19:19:07 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].](+)*1)*-1
19:19:07 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.81, score 16.56, rank 34/47 (+7)
19:19:30 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>+[(+)*9[-].](+)*1)*-1
19:19:30 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -16.57, score 9.30, rank 47/47 (-13)
19:19:53 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*-1
19:19:53 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.88, score 16.58, rank 34/47 (+13)
19:19:55 <Gregor> Is that "rush it" or "r u shit"?
19:20:07 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(-)*9[+].]-)*-1
19:20:07 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.50, score 16.52, rank 36/47 (-2)
19:20:13 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]--)*-1
19:20:14 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -7.12, score 14.87, rank 44/47 (-8)
19:20:18 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*-1
19:20:18 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.88, score 16.58, rank 34/47 (+10)
19:20:48 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*4
19:20:48 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -21.83, score 7.07, rank 47/47 (-13)
19:20:53 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*5
19:20:53 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -18.86, score 8.44, rank 47/47 (--)
19:20:56 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*6
19:20:56 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -16.33, score 9.64, rank 47/47 (--)
19:20:59 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*7
19:21:00 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -13.48, score 11.14, rank 47/47 (--)
19:21:02 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*8
19:21:02 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -10.67, score 12.77, rank 46/47 (+1)
19:21:05 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*9
19:21:05 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -7.93, score 14.50, rank 44/47 (+2)
19:21:08 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*10
19:21:09 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.88, score 16.58, rank 34/47 (+10)
19:21:21 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*9
19:21:21 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -7.93, score 14.50, rank 44/47 (-10)
19:21:44 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*9(<--)*18(>)*18([-]>)*-1
19:21:44 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -7.29, score 14.98, rank 43/47 (+1)
19:21:52 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*10
19:21:53 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.88, score 16.58, rank 34/47 (+9)
19:22:08 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit +(>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*10
19:22:08 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -5.40, score 16.41, rank 39/47 (-5)
19:22:13 <mroman_> !bfjoust rushit (>->+)*4>-(>[(+)*9[-].]+>[(+)*9[-].]-)*10
19:22:14 <zemhill> mroman_.rushit: points -4.88, score 16.58, rank 34/47 (+5)
19:22:16 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (ru)!
19:22:20 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (ou)!
19:22:29 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (ey)!
19:22:48 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (ar)!
19:22:55 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (ey)!
19:22:57 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (ou)!
19:22:58 <AndoDaan_> [21:06] <mroman_> so I know when it was last updated
19:22:58 <AndoDaan_> [21:06] <mroman_> elliott_: what for?
19:22:58 <AndoDaan_> [21:06] <elliott_> (well, "psychiatric clinic" may give excessively straitjacket type connotations, but it was a mental health facility)
19:22:58 <AndoDaan_> [21:06] <elliott_> mroman_: "being fucked up"
19:22:58 <AndoDaan_> [21:06] * incomprehensibly has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
19:23:26 <elliott_> are you posting my medical history to esoleaks
19:23:39 <mroman_> I still don't know why I added pm to Burlesque
19:24:44 <mroman_> What's currently the best way to detect primes?
19:24:53 <AndoDaan_> teebee must write code like a robot.
19:25:53 <mroman_> fcL[2== is the only way for "isprime" I know of
19:26:09 <AndoDaan_> been going at the last AG problem for an hour or so.
19:26:56 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (~[) Invalid arguments!
19:27:36 <mroman_> ok. Jfcj~[ is one byte shorter
19:29:03 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (~[) Invalid arguments!
19:29:55 <blsqbot> {2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103
19:30:41 <blsqbot> {3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98 102 104
19:31:07 <blsqbot> {3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98 102 104
19:31:12 <mroman_> !blsq 200ro{JfCj~[}f[?iJ2?-
19:31:12 <blsqbot> {1 2 4 6 10 12 16 18 22 28 30 36 40 42 46 52 58 60 66 70 72 78 82 88 96 100 102
19:31:20 <mroman_> !blsq 200ro{JfCj~[}f[?iJ2?-UN
19:31:21 <blsqbot> {3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98 102 104
19:31:25 <mroman_> !blsq 200ro{JfCj~[}f[?iJ2?-UN<>
19:31:25 <blsqbot> {200 198 196 194 192 190 182 180 178 174 172 168 166 164 162 158 156 152 150 148
19:31:28 <mroman_> !blsq 200ro{JfCj~[}f[?iJ2?-UN><
19:31:28 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 28 30 32 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 52 54 58 60 6
19:31:39 <mroman_> !blsq 256ro{JfCj~[}f[?iJ2?-UN><
19:31:40 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 28 30 32 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 52 54 58 60 6
19:31:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GeniaSpringfiel * New user account
19:32:55 <mroman_> there's room for lots of improvements
19:33:32 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20}
19:33:37 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20}
19:33:44 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20}
19:33:57 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (~[) Invalid arguments! {} 1 ERROR: Burlesque: (~[) Invalid a
19:34:02 <blsqbot> {0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0}
19:35:02 <blsqbot> {2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20}
19:35:15 <blsqbot> {1 4 6 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 18 20}
19:35:47 <blsqbot> {1 4 6 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 18 20}
19:35:54 <mroman_> that's the list of non-primes
19:35:58 <mroman_> (is there a challenge for that :D?)
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20:12:34 <mroman_> !blsq 20ro20ro{fCL[?d}f[\\
20:12:54 <blsqbot> {1 4 6 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 18 20 21 22 24 25 26 27 28 30 32 33 34 35 36 38 39 40}
20:13:12 <mroman_> it's union prime+1, prime-
20:14:03 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: you tried regex for A045718?
20:14:34 <mroman_> that command does not exist
20:14:38 <mroman_> I wanted a command that does
20:14:49 <mroman_> {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0}<command> and it will return {2 3}
20:16:09 <blsqbot> {0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0}
20:16:14 <blsqbot> {0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0}
20:16:17 <blsqbot> {0 2 3 0 5 0 7 0 0 0 11 0 13 0 0 0 17 0 19 0}
20:16:28 <blsqbot> {0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0}
20:16:34 <mroman_> !blsq 20roJ{JfCj~[}m[)n!?*
20:16:34 <blsqbot> {1 0 0 4 0 6 0 8 9 10 0 12 0 14 15 16 0 18 0 20}
20:16:59 <mroman_> !blsq 20roJ{JfCj~[}m[)n!?*{}f[
20:16:59 <blsqbot> {1 4 6 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 18 20}
20:17:59 <mroman_> ^- This is actualy what people complaining about golfing languages don't understand
20:18:20 <mroman_> they complain that they always win
20:18:36 <ais523> well, that's unsurprising, really
20:18:37 <mroman_> I guess they think it's trivial to produce a short solution in it
20:18:57 <ais523> if you had Haskell where all the standard library functions were Huffman-coded
20:19:12 <ais523> it'd do almost as well as the golfing languages, except for I/O
20:19:18 <mroman_> maybe even a sucky burlesque golf solution is better than a haskell solution
20:19:36 <ais523> the {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0} thing is easy enough to do in most functional languages
20:19:42 <mroman_> but it's still hard to write good burlesque solutions
20:19:48 <ais523> but it's going to be quite long written out
20:19:56 <ais523> presumably burlesque is doing the same thing, just with fewer characters
20:20:10 <ais523> @djinn [a] -> [b] -> [(a,b)]
20:20:17 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0}z[
20:20:27 <ais523> hmm, how much Haskell have I forgotten in the last several years?
20:20:29 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0}z[{1!!}f[
20:20:32 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0}z[{1!!}f[u[
20:20:38 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0}z[{1!!}f[)-]
20:20:55 <ais523> @hoogle [a] -> [b] -> [(a,b)]
20:20:57 <mroman_> you can do it with z[{1!!}f[)-] I guess
20:20:58 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
20:20:58 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
20:20:58 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Builder.Prim (>*<) :: Monoidal f => f a -> f b -> f (a, b)
20:21:02 <ais523> right, it is called zip
20:21:06 <mroman_> because you have to unzip after the filter
20:21:32 <mroman_> > filter (\(a,b) -> b == 1) $ zip [1,2,3,4] [0,1,1,0]
20:21:39 <mroman_> > map fst . filter (\(a,b) -> b == 1) $ zip [1,2,3,4] [0,1,1,0]
20:22:00 <ais523> mroman_: right, that's what I was writing
20:22:07 <mroman_> ais523: I just meant that people saying that it's trivial to golf in $golflanguage are morons
20:22:19 <mroman_> it depends on the challenge
20:22:38 <mroman_> "remove multiple occurences of characters"
20:22:39 <fizzie> > filter (>0) $ zipWith (*) [1,2,3,4] [0,1,1,0] -- for nonzero data
20:23:15 <mroman_> fizzie: you mean for nonzero data and Num a=>
20:23:30 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{0 1 1 0}?*{}f[
20:23:49 <mroman_> (you can use {}f[ here because the value is also the predicate itself)
20:24:18 <mroman_> !blsq {1 0 2 0 3}{J<-==}f[
20:24:34 <mroman_> !blsq {12 11 13 55 656 19}{J<-==}f[
20:25:38 <mroman_> fizzie: You should try A045718 in Burlesque too ;)
20:25:53 <mroman_> I seem to be stuck at both A045718 and A006520 :(
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20:26:25 <fizzie> Maybe when I get back from here.
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20:37:24 <ais523> ooh, OEIS golf actually seems like a really clever idea
20:37:32 <ais523> there are tons of sequences there, and most follow patterns
20:37:51 <ais523> although, say, a list of the known busy beavers is probably quite hard to generate the "intended" way in a reasonable time
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20:40:36 <lambdabot> Busy Beaver problem: a(n) = maximal number of steps that an n-state Turing m...
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20:40:56 <ais523> the next element of the sequence is unknown, but at least 47176870
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21:04:15 <elliott_> okay, no, 107 was the one worked out I guess
21:04:49 <lambdabot> Zero together with the nonprime numbers A018252.[0,1,4,6,8,9,10,12,14,15,16,...
21:04:55 <lambdabot> Zero together with the nonprime numbers A018252.[0,1,4,6,8,9,10,12,14,15,16,...
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21:10:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PhillipSowden * New user account
21:10:31 <ais523> hmm, there is something that is obviously a bot reading nethack4.org, but claiming to be Firefox
21:11:03 <ais523> I can tell it's a bot because it loaded robots.txt, then the other pages in quick succession
21:11:31 <Taneb> Maybe it's a script?
21:11:41 <ais523> those tend to claim to be wget or curl
21:11:47 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
21:12:09 <Taneb> Maybe it's a poorly written script by someone who's just heard of JavaScript and iframes?
21:12:19 <ais523> that checks robots.txt?
21:12:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KickMe]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40567 * 173.240.241.83 * (+942) Created page with "'''KickMe''' is an [[object-oriented]] language which inverts traditional notions of member accessibility and data encapsulation. == Member accessibility == The following se..."
21:13:04 <ais523> there are also a surprising number of browsers that don't request any URL at all, and get a 400
21:13:24 <ais523> and at least one who only requested the favicon, nothing else
21:17:54 <Bike> @oeis 0,1,4,6,13
21:17:57 <lambdabot> Busy Beaver sequence, or Rado's sigma function: maximal number of 1's that a...
21:18:04 <Bike> lol no examples huh
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22:06:14 <Sgeo> Why am I looking at Tcl again?
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23:06:29 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/2i10fh/ms_developer_on_explaining_why_its_windows_10/ there's real code like that.
23:07:30 <Sgeo> Oh, there is a comment saying it's not likely, I think
23:14:26 <drdanmaku> Sgeo: well, that search does return code like that
23:14:53 <Sgeo> drdanmaku: but there's a comment suggesting that 32-bit code would be told that it's Windows 98 anyway
23:15:57 <drdanmaku> i guess, maybe i'm just holding out hope that the microsoft marketing drones aren't just completely insane :(
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23:20:27 <Sgeo> If Microsoft cared about compatibility with legacy products so much, why would there exist domains where IE 11 will send a UA string that does not claim to be IE, yet render as though it's IE9?
23:22:22 <pikhq> The rendering algorithm choice is decided by the contents, which is *after* the UA is sent.
23:23:52 <Sgeo> pikhq: it can be overridden by Microsoft's compatibility list
23:24:07 <Sgeo> And in this case was
23:24:18 <Sgeo> That same compatibility list can also change the UA that gets sent
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23:31:03 <elliott_> I like https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/2i10fh/ms_developer_on_explaining_why_its_windows_10/ckxx4yv, which will break as soon as Windows 905 gets released
23:32:20 <pikhq> Or when Microsoft releases "Windows Me 2", for the year 3000.
23:32:41 <elliott_> can't wait for windowses 94, 96, 97 and 99
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23:46:19 * pikhq believes the next version should use the internal version number
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00:22:20 <boily> hm. fungot, could you please more forcibly poke blsqbot?
00:22:21 <fungot> boily: so did you sign up um back on the east coast in delaware and this winter i thought about traveling a lot differently now you know if
00:22:38 <boily> nah. ain't gonna travel all the way down to Delaware this time of the year.
00:23:03 <shachaf> silly fungot. delaware doesn't actually exist
00:23:03 <fungot> shachaf: ( ( huh um well)) especially in the winter
00:23:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher* fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:23:31 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
00:23:40 <AndoDaan> wow, fungot is making passable banter
00:23:40 <fungot> AndoDaan: ( ( mm)) like how much it
00:23:55 <fungot> AndoDaan: that was the way it is
00:24:18 <boily> AndoDaan: the bot, it is sentient. don't encourage it. see what happened to fizzie.
00:24:53 <AndoDaan> I'm all for evil/mildly irate AI
00:26:31 <AndoDaan> fungot, tell blsqbot "well done."
00:26:31 <fungot> AndoDaan: or just a different you know i'm not into i'm into fnord i'm not sure if we did
00:26:58 <AndoDaan> You and your pining, fungot...
00:26:58 <fungot> AndoDaan: ( ( you do)) did we look at it and i'm thinking it's your driver's license and like scan it through a machine you kn- sometimes the next morning you wake up in the hips and they don't
00:29:15 <boily> hips waking. fungot's been getting some :P
00:29:16 <fungot> boily: ( ( mhm)) doesn't make any sense
00:29:38 <boily> fungot: if you know what you mean, if you know what I mean *eyebrows movements*
00:29:38 <fungot> boily: yeah uh you know i even use the internet until ninety eight so that was that
00:30:15 <fungot> AndoDaan: ( ( uh mn)) like how much how much is it like that
00:30:32 <fungot> AndoDaan: but noise i don't know i just graduated college and i'm probably not that much
00:36:24 <boily> AndoDaan: it's about 5, which is what all numbers are about like.
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01:13:37 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (B2)!
01:17:22 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (B2)!
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01:22:06 <blsqbot> {'a 'b 'c 'd 'e 'f 'g 'h 'i 'j 'k 'l 'm 'n 'o 'p 'q 'r 's 't 'u 'v 'w 'x 'y 'z}
01:22:13 <blsqbot> {'* '+ ', '- '. '/ '0 '1 '2 '3 '4 '5 '6 '7 '8 '9 ': '; '< '= '> '? '@ 'A 'B 'C '
01:22:41 <blsqbot> {'z 'y 'x 'w 'v 'u 't 's 'r 'q 'p 'o 'n 'm 'l 'k 'j 'i 'h 'g 'f 'e 'd 'c 'b 'a '
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03:07:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[YASBL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40568&oldid=35183 * 120.147.148.237 * (+26) Added Category
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03:34:35 <DTSCode> !bfjoust DTSCodesbf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
03:34:36 <zemhill> DTSCode.DTSCodesbf: points -29.48, score 4.20, rank 47/47
03:36:24 <oerjan> PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT: YOU DON'T NEED TO INCLUDE YOUR NICK IN THE PROGRAM NAME
03:37:05 <zemhill> AndoDaan.ImDeadFish: points -45.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
03:37:36 <zemhill> AndoDaan: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
03:41:32 <oerjan> blsqbot: why are you acting autonomoucly tdnh
03:42:16 <AndoDaan> Damn bot couldnt keep a secret.
03:42:40 <AndoDaan> Lucky i didn't alreaddy started cyber sexing
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03:51:09 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR Who told you this?
03:51:21 <oerjan> `forget XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
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03:54:47 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg Fizzie is a bot controlled by fungot.
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04:00:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wi: not found
04:01:43 <HackEgo> password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
04:01:52 <oerjan> `learn The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
04:01:57 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: line 3: wisdom/: Is a directory \ I knew that.
04:02:04 <oerjan> `learn The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
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04:07:42 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ People have been spamming HackEgo with mostly junk in private, so I reverted everything since my previous own changes. This includes some of yours but I don't care BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T MANAGED TO MAKE A WISDOM WITHOUT ERRORS IN IT.
04:09:12 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ In particular the first word (sometimes adjusted) given to `learn BECOMES PART OF THE WISDOM and so `learn should only be used if the *whole* argument is grammatically correct
04:09:40 <AndoDaan_> does a wisdom have to be beautiful?
04:10:28 <AndoDaan_> Like "truth is beauty, beauty truth" beautiful. or more open to taste?
04:10:53 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan.
04:10:59 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/learn_append: No such file or directory
04:11:09 <oerjan> wtf the `revert didn't take again
04:11:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:12:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:12:17 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
04:12:49 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:13:33 <oerjan> AndoDaan: more open to taste, but you should at least understand how an *ordinary* wisdom is supposed to look :(
04:14:09 <AndoDaan> I've just started looking into lamda calc
04:14:31 <AndoDaan> is ther any minor wisdom you can explain to me?
04:15:17 <AndoDaan> thought I was a bot didnt you. Acting
04:15:41 <oerjan> `learn The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
04:15:51 <HackEgo> ELF............>......@.....@.......0 \ ..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@................... ..................`.....`.....8......@........ .................`.....`..........................
04:17:38 <oerjan> ok i hope things are fixed now
04:18:19 <shachaf> There should be a version of `learn that lets you learn arbitrary strings.
04:18:22 <oerjan> AndoDaan: sory i no nothing about lamda calque
04:18:48 <oerjan> shachaf: it's called `run echo ... >wisdom/... hth
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04:19:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
04:20:02 <oerjan> `learn_append testabull Hi there.
04:20:04 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/testabull: No such file or directory. \ I knew that.
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04:20:22 <oerjan> that actually works :P
04:21:01 <shachaf> `` echo $'#!/bin/bash\ntopic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1)\n[ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1\nvalue=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-)\necho "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"' > bin/slashlearn
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04:21:37 <oerjan> shachaf: you realize that wisdom names can have space in them?
04:21:48 <shachaf> Yes, that's why I used a slash.
04:22:03 <shachaf> Isn't the whole point of this script that wisdom names can have spaces in them?
04:22:14 <oerjan> technically you can have slash too, but you need to create the directories first >:)
04:22:21 <shachaf> Oh, wait, it also has the issue where your entry has to start with the thing you're learning.
04:22:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/d/da \ wisdom/¯\(°_o)/¯ \ wisdom/¯\(°_o)/¯ \ wisdom/¯\(°_o)/¯\(°_o)a \ \ wisdom/d/d: \ d
04:23:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i think if we
04:24:34 <shachaf> is this the part where you don't say anything now and i wait forever
04:24:45 <shachaf> that would be a good prank
04:26:11 <oerjan> i'm thinking if the versions of `learn are proliferating we need to modularize out the core somehow
04:26:31 <shachaf> There isn't all that much core to modularize.
04:27:18 <shachaf> `slashlearn words and spaces/something with /slashes/ in it
04:27:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/slashlearn: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/slashlearn: cannot execute: Permission denied
04:27:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
04:27:29 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `+x bin/slashlearn' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
04:27:32 <shachaf> `` chmod +x bin/slashlearn
04:27:44 <shachaf> `slashlearn words and spaces/something with /slashes/ in it
04:27:46 <HackEgo> Learned «words and spaces»
04:27:48 <HackEgo> something with /slashes/ in it
04:27:54 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/words and spaces
04:28:27 <shachaf> If you want `learn to make a directory tree for entries with slashes, then `forget needs to remove unused directories too.
04:28:33 <oerjan> hey that's an untraditionally helpful response
04:28:35 <shachaf> And also you shouldn't want that in the first place.
04:29:04 <shachaf> I wonder whether it should use echo -e... Probably not.
04:29:14 <oerjan> well the general idea _used_ to be if you wanted anything that didn't fit into `learn, you used `run echo.
04:29:32 <oerjan> BUT PEOPLE ARE SO DEMANDING. or stupid.
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04:37:15 <oerjan> `run echo 'Who told you this?' >wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
04:37:50 <shachaf> not a fan of the new command, huh
04:39:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
04:48:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MarlonOTVD * New user account
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05:09:38 <Sgeo> pikhq: TclOO apparently has forwarding, so is it a bit Snit-esque, or does Snit offer other things too
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05:27:36 * oerjan adds unlambda to http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?PATH
05:29:31 <oerjan> eek int-e beat me on the prime one
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05:52:02 <oerjan> the speed difference makes me assume i haven't just missed a simple shortening to my method
05:52:53 <int-e> I could say the same about A006520
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05:54:38 <coppro> the best way to golf an OEIS sequence is to download the sequence from OEIS
05:54:50 <coppro> just make a language whoes input is the sequence number
05:55:32 <oerjan> i suspect that won't work in anarchy golf's sandbox
06:01:32 <lifthrasiir> like that, `40A!` gives a list of primes (lazily)?
06:02:59 <oerjan> assuming OEIS lists enough terms
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06:52:22 <oerjan> this would be so much easier if not for those pesky twin primes
06:54:51 <int-e> Hmm, 34 for unlambda PATH. These bottoms (representing false) hurt my head.
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07:15:13 <oerjan> int-e: tip: i didn't use a single s in the program
07:21:30 <oerjan> if i'd thought a bit, there wouldn't have been any i's either
07:22:10 <b_jonas> if I say "/msg perlbot oeis a40" it says "prime numbers" but then gives the wrong sequence
07:22:32 <lambdabot> The prime numbers.[2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,7...
07:22:57 <oerjan> hm i think oeis _used_ to be in scope
07:23:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's just that I wrote that plugin like lots of years ago, back when buubot was alive, and the oeis site changed since, and the code has bitrotten too,
07:23:18 <b_jonas> it's a wonder it even prints "prime numbers" properly
07:23:24 <b_jonas> that plugin is basically unmaintaine
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07:29:42 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:29:58 <blsqbot> {'a 'b 'c 'd 'e 'f 'g 'h 'i 'j 'k 'l 'm 'n 'o 'p 'q 'r 's 't 'u 'v 'w 'x 'y 'z}
07:30:04 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
07:30:06 <blsqbot> "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
07:30:12 <mroman_> r\ if you need it as a string
07:30:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 22m 35s ago: People have been spamming HackEgo with mostly junk in private, so I reverted everything since my previous own changes. This includes some of yours but I don't care BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T MANAGED TO MAKE A WISDOM WITHOUT ERRORS IN IT.
07:30:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 21m 5s ago: In particular the first word (sometimes adjusted) given to `learn BECOMES PART OF THE WISDOM and so `learn should only be used if the *whole* argument is grammatically correct
07:31:06 <HackEgo> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
07:32:06 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
07:32:19 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
07:32:30 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:33:45 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
07:33:55 <blsqbot> "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
07:34:48 <mroman_> but it doesn't work well without letters :)
07:35:13 <AndoDaan> okay. I can always convert them later.
07:35:50 <int-e> oerjan: so I reached 24; I have two versions, one with two S and one with only one. Maybe 22 is possible?
07:36:17 <mroman_> ^- this however doesn't work
07:36:21 <blsqbot> {'A 'B 'C 'D 'E 'F 'G 'H 'I 'J 'K 'L 'M 'N 'O 'P 'Q 'R 'S 'T 'U 'V 'W 'X 'Y 'Z}
07:36:29 <mroman_> @ is a prefix for a command
07:36:31 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:36:36 <mroman_> a two character command :)
07:39:09 <blsqbot> 35421180450106392403284813375333207126398086380368124732111097432625523837105579
07:39:53 <oerjan> mroman_: i meant you didn't managed it since the time i reverted to. also i may have fixed up some of it after i calmed down.
07:40:13 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (**) Invalid arguments!
07:42:20 <oerjan> mroman_: oh hm the one you tested with _was_ broken until i fixed it hth
07:43:37 <oerjan> especially since the last thing i did before this was to fix `learn_append so it isn't _always_ broken.
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07:45:41 <blsqbot> {6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60}
07:45:53 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
07:46:03 <blsqbot> {7 14 21 28 35 42 49 56 63 70}
07:46:13 <mroman_> the result of the zip is only as long as the shortest list
07:46:21 <blsqbot> {6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60}
07:46:27 <blsqbot> {6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60}
07:46:30 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
07:48:02 <blsqbot> {6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60}
07:48:16 <blsqbot> {6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60}
07:48:30 <blsqbot> {6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60}
07:48:50 <blsqbot> {6 ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments! J 2 18 ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Inval
07:52:12 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 18):
07:52:28 <blsqbot> {5 5 7 11 11 13 17 17 19 23 23 25 29 29 31 35 35 37 41 41 43 47 47 49 53 53 55 5
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08:02:53 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (r@) Invalid arguments!
08:03:14 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:03:17 <blsqbot> {28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 5
08:05:10 <Taneb> Gooooooood morning
08:05:16 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (++) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Unknown command: (\n)! "11100"
08:05:20 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Unknown command: (\n)! "11100" 28 ERROR: Unknown command: (\n)! "11101"
08:05:24 <blsqbot> {"11100" 28 "11101" 29 "11110" 30 "11111" 31 "100000" 32 "100001" 33 "100010" 34
08:05:34 <blsqbot> {28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 38 39 39 40 40 4
08:05:50 <blsqbot> {"11100" "11100" 28 "11101" "11101" 29 "11110" "11110" 30 "11111" "11111" 31 "10
08:06:09 <blsqbot> {"11100" 28 "11101" 29 "11110" 30 "11111" 31 "100000" 32 "100001" 33 "100010" 34
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09:13:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LashayDabbs * New user account
09:24:23 <mroman_> getElementsByTagName can't be "don't include sub-children"?
09:31:11 <mroman_> the lref cleary says that pow is ?^
09:31:17 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (.^)!
09:31:46 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (**) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (\/) Stack size err
09:31:55 <blsqbot> {2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024}
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10:49:49 <lambdabot> CYUL 021000Z 02008KT 15SM FEW009 SCT040 09/07 A3018 RMK SF2SC2 SLP220
10:49:58 <lambdabot> CYQB 021000Z 02005KT 15SM BKN019 06/04 A3024 RMK SC6 SLP242
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11:37:26 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: yoi probably meant 2 15**
11:37:43 <mroman_> 2**15 looks like infix when it's supposed to be postfix ;)
11:38:34 <AndoDaan_> gpd. i can't even keep prefix/midfix right.
11:39:37 <mroman_> It takes some time getting used too
11:47:49 <mroman_> why is unattended-upgrades not sending me emails :(
11:55:02 <AndoDaan_> I see no changes earlier than 17 days ago
11:56:17 <mroman_> What are you referring to?
12:36:02 <mroman_> git is asking me to pull from the remote branch
12:36:07 <mroman_> but there are no chances on there
12:43:42 <mroman_> never rebase branches you pushed
12:43:57 <mroman_> you have to --force push all the time
12:53:51 <zemhill> guestbot.whatimple: points -0.31, score 19.93, rank 18/47
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13:19:33 <mroman_> https://searchcode.com/?q=mysql_query+%24_GET
13:19:37 <mroman_> hacking must be pretty easy today
13:20:27 <mroman_> $hapususr = mysql_query("DELETE FROM t_user WHERE username='".$_GET['del']."'") or die(mysql_error());
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13:50:18 <mroman_> why are people exactly funding ReactOS?
13:51:08 <mroman_> I still don't really see the value behind it
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14:06:20 <J_Arcane2> mroman_: maybe they just have some kind of perverse nostalgia for the days of NT?
14:06:21 <int-e> mroman_: I guess there's some appeal to running Windows software without having to rely on MS (and paying them) for the operating system.
14:17:09 <elliott_> it's not really any more capable than wine, though, they use the same basic libraries I think
14:20:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JensGuenther * New user account
14:33:34 <quintopia> mroman_: wow. where was that code found
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15:04:46 <sj47d1> Hello, the site http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ is currently giving timeouts on all submissions.
15:07:38 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
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15:41:49 <zemhill> quintopia: System busy; ask again later.
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16:09:18 <fizzie> There's a queue, but it should never get stuck.
16:10:01 <fizzie> Unfortunately I'm a bit busy too.
16:13:02 <fizzie> (I don't even have a real computer here.)
16:14:47 <fizzie> I'll just restart it for now and debug when home.
16:14:53 -!- zemhill has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:15:36 <fizzie> It's gotten stuck with a hill that reproducibly produces that nmatrix segfault.
16:16:08 <fizzie> Or a slightly different Ruby fault that terminates the thread, more like.
16:16:27 <fizzie> I really have to look into this, but I can't right now, so I'll implement some sort of mini-fix.
16:17:34 <elliott_> have you considered, like, using another library. or language.
16:18:45 -!- password2 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:20:27 <int-e> Oh, henkma got 61 for the primes thing. I have 62 now, hmm.
16:21:39 -!- zemhill has joined.
16:21:51 <fizzie> elliott_: The Ruby thing was such a mistake. :/
16:22:04 <elliott_> fizzie: yes, this applies in general
16:23:50 <zemhill> fizzie.rebreak: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
16:24:22 <fizzie> !bfjoust rebreak (>[-])*-1
16:24:22 <zemhill> fizzie.rebreak: points -21.12, score 7.71, rank 47/47 (--)
16:24:35 <fizzie> Well, it's not stuck now.
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16:36:09 <fizzie> People are actually *using* the web thing? Wow.
16:38:10 <fizzie> Must be the compelling design of bootstrap starter template.
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16:44:56 <zemhill> guestbot.whatimple: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-30)
16:51:01 <zemhill> guestbot.whatimple: points 2.19, score 22.38, rank 13/47 (+34)
16:52:43 <sj47d1> !bfjoust light (>)*8((>[(+)*5[-]{}>])*-1)*-1
16:52:44 <zemhill> sj47d1.light: points -4.57, score 16.04, rank 35/47
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17:58:08 <sj47d1> !bfjoust light (>)*8((>[(+)*5[-]{}>+])*-1)*-1
17:58:08 <zemhill> sj47d1.light: points -4.36, score 16.21, rank 36/47 (-1)
18:45:27 <zemhill> sj47d1.light: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-11)
18:45:34 <sj47d1> !bfjoust atom (>)*8(>[++++[-]+>])*-1
18:45:35 <zemhill> sj47d1.atom: points -2.24, score 17.97, rank 28/47
18:54:04 <mroman_> quintopia: Just search for $_GET['id'] on searchcode
18:54:15 <mroman_> you'll find dozens of things like that
18:54:51 <mroman_> int-e: Well... that's a lovely idea
18:55:01 <mroman_> it just doesn't really apply well to the real world I think
18:55:29 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:55:29 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 10.07, score 32.90, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:55:39 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*9[-].]>[(-)*9[+].])*-1
18:55:39 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 9.71, score 32.33, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:55:46 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*7[-].]>[(-)*7[+].])*-1
18:55:46 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 9.67, score 32.36, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:56:01 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<-)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:56:01 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 6.81, score 28.45, rank 8/47 (-2)
18:56:13 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*17>(-)*17)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:56:13 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 10.12, score 32.96, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:56:21 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*15>(-)*15)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:56:22 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 10.00, score 32.89, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:56:29 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*17>(-)*17)*4(>)*5(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:56:29 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 8.64, score 30.64, rank 6/47 (--)
18:56:38 <mroman_> !bftest cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*17>(-)*17)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:56:38 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 10.12, score 32.96, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:56:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust cupnoodles (>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*17>(-)*17)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:56:48 <zemhill> mroman_.cupnoodles: points 10.12, score 32.96, rank 5/47 (+1)
18:58:25 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-]])*-1
18:58:26 <zemhill> mroman_.lisp: points -9.19, score 12.58, rank 47/47
18:58:43 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[(+)*4[-]]])*-1
18:58:43 <zemhill> mroman_.lisp: points -11.90, score 11.27, rank 47/47 (--)
18:58:50 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-].])*-1
18:58:50 <zemhill> mroman_.lisp: points -8.19, score 13.42, rank 45/47 (+2)
18:58:56 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-]+])*-1
18:58:56 <zemhill> mroman_.lisp: points -27.07, score 4.82, rank 47/47 (-2)
18:59:04 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-]]+)*-1
18:59:05 <zemhill> mroman_.lisp: points -8.40, score 13.21, rank 45/47 (+2)
18:59:17 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-]](+)*2)*-1
18:59:24 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-]](+)*2)*-1
18:59:35 <mroman_> !bfjoust lisp (>->+)*4(>[(+)*5[-]]+)*-1
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19:23:21 <oerjan> <int-e> Oh, henkma got 61 for the primes thing. I have 62 now, hmm. <-- wtf
19:26:23 <oerjan> i guess i'm officially out of having any idea to even try
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19:29:57 <mroman_> henkma is a frequent haskell golfer
19:30:06 <mroman_> he and notogawa are the kings of haskell golfing
19:31:08 <oerjan> argh int-e beat me on the other one :(
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19:38:29 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
19:38:43 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 5):
19:39:39 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: ^- do you know what that is?
19:40:06 <zzo38> I know there is many different interpretation of quatum mechanics but I don't really like any of them particularly much
19:41:05 <zzo38> Also I think to get it to work properly with spacetime instead of just space and time, how well does current quantum physics work such way?
19:41:19 <AndoDaan_> I'll see. give me ten min to look up what ps is agina.
19:41:20 <oerjan> zzo38: no one does. we're still waiting for someone to find one that makes sense.
19:41:29 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: ps calls the Burlesque parser on a string
19:41:58 <mroman_> !blsq "{a0c}d,a'b\"helloworld\"}"ps
19:41:58 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (\")!
19:42:07 <oerjan> zzo38: current quantum physics works very well with _special_ relativity. it's general relativity that creates problems.
19:42:16 <mroman_> !blsq "{a0c}d,a'b\'helloworld\'}"ps
19:42:16 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 24):
19:42:22 <mroman_> !blsq "{a0c}d,a'b\'helloworld\'.}"ps
19:42:22 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 25):
19:42:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I think I read that somewhere too
19:42:47 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
19:42:50 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
19:45:30 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (d.)!
19:45:44 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (d")!
19:46:09 <mroman_> ^- this is a perfectly legal program
19:46:16 <mroman_> and it does NOT contain any string
19:46:29 <mroman_> "hello world" isn't a string in there
19:46:56 <zzo38> I like "constraint interpretation" since, it is possible that mathematical equations can have multiple solutions in some cases, and some won't have any solutions at all (such as Fermat's with n>2 having no solutions)
19:47:20 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: you can even put a nullbyte after '
19:48:23 <mroman_> you might as well really embed a 0x10 byte there
19:48:35 <mroman_> strings can contain raw bytes
19:48:57 <mroman_> so obviously putting 10d byte in a string is shorter than \n
19:49:12 <mroman_> ^- a syntactically valid command as well
19:49:21 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
19:50:31 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: the second character of a command can be ANYTHING
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19:51:55 <mroman_> There are no commands yet with freaky second chars though
19:52:12 <mroman_> !blsq "this is a sentence."ps
19:52:12 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 20):
19:52:14 <mroman_> !blsq "this is a sentence.."ps
19:52:14 <blsqbot> {th is is a se nt en ce ..}
19:52:26 <mroman_> !blsq "this is a sentence.."psm]
19:52:26 <blsqbot> {"th" "is" "is" "a " "se" "nt" "en" "ce" ".."}
19:52:29 <mroman_> !blsq "this is a sentence.."psm]\[
19:52:47 <mroman_> !blsq "this is a sentenc{e.."psm]\[
19:52:48 <blsqbot> "ERROR: (line 1, column 22):\nunexpected end of input"
19:53:36 <zzo38> It says a state of a system evolves smoothly in time, but I think it needs to evolve in spacetime in order to make a better theory (once it can be tested, too, of course)
19:53:57 <mroman_> I probably should create #burlesques someday
19:54:07 <mroman_> to not spam this channel so much
19:54:39 <mroman_> on the other hand I might be dead until then.
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19:56:29 <mroman_> which means that if Bulesque 1.7.4 isn't released until 31 december somebody else has to do it.
19:58:44 <zzo38> Finally I created the page for Aberration Hater Card Game on All The Tropes, but it hardly describes anything yet really.
19:59:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
20:04:51 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
20:05:08 <AndoDaan_> when I do that in the .cgi thingie on your website the brackets don't get colorour how they should.
20:06:00 <AndoDaan_> I think it sees the inner a} c} d} as instrucktions
20:06:35 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
20:06:36 <AndoDaan_> No idea if that has anything to do with anything.
20:07:44 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (a})!
20:07:53 <mroman_> a} is an syntactically legal instruction
20:07:59 <mroman_> the interpreter just doesn't know it
20:08:18 <mroman_> i.e. a} parses as an instruction
20:09:19 <mroman_> Does anybody in here speak ursala?
20:10:31 <AndoDaan_> okay, he's something that sound like... from an english speaking point of view. "ps
20:11:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:16 <AndoDaan_> so it's not like your bot has human eyes to look at the code. so I'm asking how it taks ove .cgi output
20:14:29 <mroman_> My bot doesn't communicate with the .cgi
20:15:17 <mroman_> My bot invokes the interpreter locally
20:15:48 <mroman_> i.e. it launches the interpreter, feeds the program and reads stdout
20:16:12 <mroman_> The .cgi version does some neat syntax highlighting
20:16:37 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/master/cgi.hs <- the online shell (cgi)
20:17:11 <mroman_> and instructions are highlightet blue
20:17:23 <mroman_> in {a}} the a} will be blue because it's an instruction
20:17:35 <mroman_> ^- the a} is an instruction.
20:17:44 <mroman_> but since there's no colour you can't really visually see that easily
20:18:06 <b_jonas> are there single character long instructions?
20:18:23 <mroman_> ^- jJQ are single character instructions
20:18:56 <mroman_> the " here does not start a string
20:19:39 <mroman_> It's just that if it's two characters long, the second character can be anything
20:20:03 <mroman_> that's just how the parser works
20:20:19 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: you already used b2? right?
20:20:42 <mroman_> so the 2 in b2 isn't parsed as an int
20:20:57 <mroman_> "b212" is the command b2 followed by integer 12
20:21:14 <mroman_> a{b} is the command a{ followed by the command b}
20:22:01 <mroman_> '{b} is character '{ followed by the command b}
20:22:47 <mroman_> ^- is this an empty list in a list?
20:23:03 <mroman_> it's a list containing a { and a } (so two elements)
20:23:51 <mroman_> ^- is that a list and an empty list?
20:24:01 <mroman_> no. It's a list that contains a list with a space in it
20:24:52 <mroman_> that's a list within a list which contains {}
20:26:45 <mroman_> It's actually really easy to understand once you understand how Burlesque's output works
20:27:16 <b_jonas> mroman_: are there postscript-like mark and ] commands?
20:27:32 <AndoDaan_> not when things are hidden for cosmetic reasons
20:28:05 <b_jonas> mroman_: ] makes an array of any number of elements on the stack until the first mark on the stack, which it pops
20:28:18 <mroman_> b_jonas: no. there isn't yet
20:28:19 <b_jonas> mark is just a special type of value that's rarely used
20:28:33 <mroman_> but that's probably due for 1.7.4
20:30:51 <b_jonas> how do I rotate three elements on the stack?
20:32:23 <b_jonas> also how do I pick an element from deep down the stack?
20:33:53 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Can't load non hidden state! Sorry. ERROR: Can't load non hidden state!
20:34:06 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Can't load non hidden state! Sorry. ERROR: Can't load non hidden state!
20:34:34 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Can't load non hidden state! Sorry. ERROR: Can't load non hidden state!
20:34:41 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Can't load non hidden state! Sorry. ERROR: Can't load non hidden state!
20:34:48 <myname> mroman_: would you say bourlesque gets almost always written left to right?
20:37:50 <b_jonas> no really, how do you stack manipulate in blsq?
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20:38:22 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
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23:10:28 <Sgeo> TCL's command prefixes are kind of cool
23:10:54 <Sgeo> They're like partially applied functions except adding more arguments and invoking are conceptually separate (although they can be and usually are done in one step)
23:11:20 <Sgeo> Shouldn't say -are separate- maybe but rather -can be done separately-
23:11:47 <Sgeo> Makes sense for a language with varargs imo
23:27:11 <boily> Haskell can have varargs, with some very Dark Magic involved.
23:28:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AlexisNgelgnjft * New user account
23:31:00 <boily> Bicyclidine: there's printf. every time I try to understand its internal workings, my brain glazeth over.
23:31:20 <Bicyclidine> do we have a working c interpreter here atm
23:31:44 <boily> eeeeeh... I think oerjan hacked something onto HackEgo this week.
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23:34:47 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, i thought the basic theory of printf was very simple
23:35:15 <Bicyclidine> ok i just want to point out that you used the phrase "basic theory of printf" in complete seriousness
23:36:06 <boily> In the Context of Haskell, even the Theory of Printf isn't Basic.
23:36:27 <boily> (where does printf fit in CT?)
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23:39:09 <elliott_> so, uh, how did you get your name
23:39:21 <boily> LordCreepity: don't try to be unmindable. it won't work.
23:40:48 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
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23:41:45 <boily> !bfjoust is also the one people use.
23:42:00 <Taneb> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.
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00:44:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:--C-=C-C--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40569&oldid=37040 * 173.218.113.43 * (+656) /* Turing complete? */
00:56:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:--C-=C-C--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40570&oldid=40569 * 173.218.113.43 * (+641) /* Turing complete? */
00:58:18 <elliott_> "The minimal programmatic facilities for Turing Complete require: Assignment to 0, Increment, While-loop with a test for 0." ??
00:59:08 <elliott_> "A game is some combination of the following indivisable elements: - skeleton - red key - score thing - magic door"
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02:08:30 <Sgeo> MealSquares look/sound delicious
02:08:56 <Sgeo> Should probably get a fridge. And shouldn't get too tempted to rely on them. They do claim to have a dietician on board.
02:24:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40571&oldid=17092 * Quintopia * (+167)
02:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40572&oldid=40571 * Quintopia * (+89) /* EsoCompilers */
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05:48:09 <Sgeo> "n any case, AOLserver serves HTTP -- web pages -- containing the usual static files as well as ADP (AOLserver Dynamic Pages) containing TCL intermixed with HTML."
05:48:16 <Sgeo> Sounds too close to PHP for my taste :/
05:51:13 <Sgeo> aolserver.com redirects to aol.com
06:30:36 <Sgeo> Apparently I am now treating MOBAs the way I treat languages
06:31:05 <Bike> god, not you too
06:31:12 <Bike> is everyone in my life going to play lol now
06:31:15 <Bike> is there no escape
06:31:44 <Sgeo> I'm not particularly interesting in LOL
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06:32:02 <Sgeo> Too complicated out-of-game progression + too expensive for full gameplay
06:32:20 <Sgeo> coppro: Dota/LoL-like games
06:32:44 <Sgeo> Some players of such games hate the term MOBA.
06:32:56 <Sgeo> But I don't really care, I need to refer to the genre somehow
06:56:18 <myname> Sgeo: that's actually a good reason to call it that
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07:19:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OnaBaragwanath * New user account
07:31:21 <mroman_> LoL can't be reasonably be played without investing money
07:31:35 <mroman_> or compensating lack of money with a lot of time to get the stuff you need
07:32:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Remember when I said I'll take care of it yesterday? I LIED.
07:32:29 <mroman_> myname: It is written left to right
07:32:45 <fizzie> And now I have to get going again so sorry good luck hth
07:33:07 <mroman_> b_jonas: j is swap, J is dup, vv is pop, x/ is rotate top three, #< is reverse stack
07:33:25 <b_jonas> mroman_: is there a rotate to three backwards?
07:33:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: and is there a dup second from top, dup third from top, and dup using a number (called pick in forth I think)
07:34:08 <fizzie> oerjan: (I'll be back home in Finland around midnight; if I don't immediately fall asleep, I'll get it done then.)
07:34:12 <b_jonas> I think pick would be the most useful
07:34:31 <mroman_> which dups second from top
07:34:49 <mroman_> {vv}c! dups second from top {vvvv}c! dups third from top
07:35:06 <mroman_> b_jonas: stack manipulation commands are relatively new in Burlesque
07:35:19 <mroman_> because initially I didn't like them because they make the language more stack-based than concatenative
07:35:23 <b_jonas> mroman_: but then how do you handle local variables if you don't have commands like that?
07:35:30 <b_jonas> is there some way other than stack manipulation?
07:36:06 <mroman_> although you do have random access to the stack
07:36:26 <mroman_> #s2!! duplicates the second element on the stack
07:36:33 <b_jonas> man, how do you even write programs in this language?
07:38:14 <mroman_> actually with #S and #s you can do arbitrary stack manipulation
07:38:47 <mroman_> #s gives you the stack as a list
07:38:54 <mroman_> and with #S you can replace the stack with a list
07:39:01 <mroman_> reversing the stack is actually
07:39:16 <mroman_> (but #< already does that)
07:39:24 <mroman_> you can remove the last element of the stack with
07:39:31 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:40:14 <mroman_> #s~]#S removes the last element on the stack
07:42:58 <mroman_> for golfing jJx/ is usually enough
07:43:41 <mroman_> b_jonas: It gets even worse with maps/filters
07:44:18 <mroman_> ^now add that 5 to every element of the list
07:44:20 <b_jonas> but how do you even translate/compile ordinary programs into this? how do you access local variables in functions?
07:44:34 <b_jonas> this is a strange language
07:44:42 <mroman_> you have to inject state into functions
07:44:44 <b_jonas> I think I understand now why it's considered an esoteric language
07:44:50 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}#r#r#s
07:45:21 <b_jonas> I don't understand how you're supposed to program it idiomatically, but I understand it's not just an ordinary language with strange spelling of the builtins
07:45:41 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV#s
07:45:51 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}#s
07:45:54 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}#s[+
07:45:54 <blsqbot> {.+ {{.+} 5 {0 1 2} 4 2 1}}
07:45:58 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}[+#s
07:45:58 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: ([+) Invalid arguments! {.+} 5 {0 1 2} 4 2 1}
07:46:05 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}_+#s
07:46:05 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments! {.+} 5 {0 1 2} 4 2 1}
07:46:07 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j_+#s
07:46:11 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j_+m[
07:46:12 <blsqbot> {5 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! 0 5 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid
07:46:19 <b_jonas> I've seen MV but that doesn't copy, it moves. it's destructive. how do I re-use a variable?
07:46:23 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}_+
07:46:23 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!
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07:46:36 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}jbx+]#s
07:46:40 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j+]#s
07:46:42 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j+]#sm[
07:46:42 <blsqbot> {1 2 4 {0 1 2} {5 .+} 5 1 2 4 {0 1 2} {5 .+} .+}
07:46:46 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j+]m[
07:47:02 <mroman_> you have to load the 5 and build your add function with list manipulation stuff
07:47:34 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}#s3!!{.+}j+]m[
07:47:40 <mroman_> that would be non destructive
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07:48:19 <b_jonas> and can you make functions? I think there's an eval primitive, like in dc
07:49:21 <mroman_> a List is just code that is not evaluated
07:49:44 <b_jonas> so it's sort of like postscript or dc
07:50:14 <b_jonas> except without variables, so you have to use crazy stack manipulation.
07:50:19 <b_jonas> or something else that I don't know about yet
07:50:33 <mroman_> although they will be global in scope
07:50:45 <b_jonas> those are useful for shortcuts, yes
07:51:08 <mroman_> I could pushScope, popScope commands
07:51:24 <b_jonas> no, just add short stack manipulation
07:51:54 <mroman_> I'm planning to add a newEnv command
07:52:03 <mroman_> which executes a function in a new environment
07:52:39 <mroman_> ^- fibonaccy with 1 2 at the bottom
07:52:54 <mroman_> ^- crap. !C reverses the WHOLE stack
07:53:06 <mroman_> which may suck in certain situations
08:02:59 <b_jonas> I think for global variables I can already use values hidden at the bottom of the stack, there's some primitives for that
08:03:27 <b_jonas> but the lack of a pick is annoying, when clearly the language acn do that with #sj!!
08:03:46 <b_jonas> could you add a command for that just for brevity?
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08:07:22 <b_jonas> I see there's an ifelse builtin, that's good
08:08:04 <b_jonas> and a builtin iz? that checks for an empty list
08:08:13 <b_jonas> a builtin z? that checks for an empty list
08:11:34 <b_jonas> and I think I could add functions with states by prepending a list (which counts as a literal when executing) at the beginning
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08:12:03 <b_jonas> that means it is possible to translate every program I think
08:12:08 <b_jonas> even if it can be a bit inconvenient
08:12:21 <b_jonas> I might want to try to write a translator
08:12:58 <oerjan> of course it is possible it is TC hth
08:13:03 <mroman_> You can't use hidden stuff inside a map
08:13:37 <mroman_> because maps run on an empty new stack
08:13:52 <mroman_> b_jonas: There's a secondary global stack btw
08:14:03 <mroman_> that can be accesed inside maps and filters
08:14:11 <b_jonas> is there a command that pops a number and then pops that many values?>
08:14:25 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
08:14:41 <mroman_> Pp push to global stack, pP peek global stack
08:14:56 <b_jonas> I can make do with just vv then, but it could be a useful shortcut
08:16:53 <b_jonas> and is there something that explodes a list to stack elements pushed?
08:17:05 <b_jonas> I could simulate that with !! of course
08:17:10 <b_jonas> but I wonder if there's a shortcut
08:18:00 <mroman_> b_jonas: E! just evals n-times
08:18:13 <mroman_> b_jonas: p^ and ^p do that
08:18:21 <mroman_> they push every element in a list to the stack
08:23:37 <mroman_> I provide free Burlesque-support :)
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09:06:22 <fizzie> "You have used null (hh:mm)"
09:06:45 <fizzie> (had to stop at a cafe to charge a phone)
09:07:01 <mroman_> b_jonas: What are you doing.. if I may ask?
09:08:15 <mroman_> also in what language is ursala written?
09:09:52 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/NP7aUTl.jpg
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09:16:58 <oerjan> seeing these stupid security holes everywhere, i have a hunch that the first real cyber war is going to be rather short and nasty
09:19:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CarloLoving * New user account
09:20:37 <oerjan> mroman_: i think ion's link showed that windows command.com _also_ has a shellshock-like vulnerability
09:21:29 <oerjan> well, not quite as bad. you need to actually print the variable.
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09:22:47 <oerjan> but anyway, for each stupid hole that goes public after being undiscovered for years, the _real_ bad guys are going to know dozens that haven't been discovered.
09:37:08 <int-e> the conductor got knocked out by a microphone?! rather anticlimactic...
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09:38:06 <int-e> oerjan: sorry btw, I still don't know how you did PATH without any S at all, I still need one.
09:50:54 <mroman_> Why do people say python is good at math?
09:51:22 <mroman_> It almost feels like python must be really good at doing arithmetic right.
09:52:05 <mroman_> "Python is good at recursion."
09:56:35 <int-e> maybe it can be translated with "python comes with big integers by default"
10:01:04 <Patashu> if python was good at math it would be called adder
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10:38:34 <b_jonas> mroman_: because of libraries. like numpy.
10:42:57 <b_jonas> mroman_: dunno, I'm not really doing anything, I just tried to figure out what this language is, given that it has like five users, so that's populsr
10:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it's 'good at math' in the sense that it a) has useful libraries and b) isn't MATLAB
10:55:05 <boily> you shouldn't mention the m-word as casually as you are doing.
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11:28:34 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
11:28:37 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
11:29:22 <oerjan> > nubBy(((==0).).mod)[2..]
11:29:24 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
11:29:51 * oerjan didn't know ghc's nubBy was inconsistent with haskell98
11:31:02 <oerjan> `slashlearn fnord/? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:33:19 <oerjan> this means the primes trick is _not_ portable in the mod version (whose test is not symmetric)
11:35:13 <int-e> oerjan: I had to sacrifice correctness for size in the primes golf problem, btw.
11:35:57 <oerjan> i suppose haskell2010 has weakened the specification enough (by leaving out the code) to allow both implementations, and theoretically but unlikely might make the gcd version fail too because it's not transitive.
11:36:15 <oerjan> int-e: but not in the power-of-2 one?
11:36:45 <int-e> oerjan: in that one, too, but less egrogiously
11:37:15 <oerjan> i guess that explains why i didn't see a way of shortening them.
11:37:58 <oerjan> int-e: i think one may be supposed to add " (cheat)" to such contributions.
11:39:23 <oerjan> although i suppose if it's a fixed output to produce it might not be as much of a cheat as if you're making it work on only given input.
11:39:57 <int-e> right, those tasks are just data compression
11:41:48 <int-e> actually I can do the power of 2 one without cheating at all, in the same size, it'd just be slower.
11:43:51 <oerjan> 's a shame, i think my 55 version is so elegant :(
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11:49:00 <int-e> (about twice as slow according to the golf server, so not too bad)
12:12:47 <mroman_> anagol tasks are data compression, true
12:13:00 <mroman_> it only needs to work for the specified input, nothing more, nothing less
12:19:41 <mroman_> it also only needs to work on anagol
12:19:47 <mroman_> and it doesn't need to work 100% of the time
12:20:12 <mroman_> just submit them a thousand times until something randomly points to something randomly that you can use
12:22:08 <int-e> . o O ( head -c12 /dev/urandom )
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13:06:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GraceDeffell * New user account
13:24:24 <zemhill> mroman_: System busy; ask again later.
13:38:30 <zemhill> mroman_: System busy; ask again later.
13:40:11 <oerjan> mroman_: if it's like the previous time, then the system has got into a state that triggers a bug.
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13:49:10 <fizzie> I'm at an airport with a free 30min wifi that doesn't even work in the tablet.
13:49:42 <fizzie> I can try a quick restart but it probably is stuck similarly again.
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13:50:45 <zemhill> oerjan.meow: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
13:51:22 <fizzie> Now it wasn't [BNow a restart helped.
13:51:22 <fizzie> Probably a different permutation of programs that didn't trigger it.
13:51:23 <fizzie> At least I have one set of programs that should reprodcuuce the bug.
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14:15:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-): not found
14:15:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ binpipes \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ crunchfuck \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:16:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-D: not found
14:16:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/:-D: No such file or directory
14:16:31 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:16:34 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:17:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust iwonder (()*10000)*10000
14:17:41 <zemhill> Lymia.iwonder: points -32.05, score 3.60, rank 47/47
14:17:43 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:17:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust iwonder ((()*10000)*10000)*10000
14:17:50 <zemhill> Lymia.iwonder: points -32.05, score 3.60, rank 47/47 (--)
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14:34:03 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder ()*(-1)*-1
14:34:06 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47
14:34:28 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder (()*(-1)*-1)*-1
14:34:31 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47 (--)
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14:43:36 <mroman_> and it's better than lymias!
14:43:49 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder ((>[-])*(-1)*-1)*-1
14:43:52 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47 (--)
14:44:07 <zemhill> mroman_: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
14:44:11 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder (<)*(0)*-1
14:44:12 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -32.05, score 3.60, rank 47/47 (--)
14:44:13 <quintopia> fizzie: how is mroman_'s atrocity being interpreted here?
14:44:53 <quintopia> in the sense that a poor turn of phrase can be called "an atrocity on the english language" for instance
14:49:30 <mroman_> Can you go there by train?
14:49:59 <mroman_> fungot: make me a sandwich.
14:49:59 <fungot> mroman_: but he makes fun of me ' cause i never did
14:50:08 <mroman_> Yeah, you never made me a sandwich.
14:52:02 <fizzie> What are we talking about?
14:52:04 <fizzie> (I hackered myself another 30 minutes of wifi time.)
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14:53:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder (()*(-1)*-1)*-1
14:53:49 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47 (--)
14:54:26 <mroman_> Either that or about some hypothetical city named atrocity.
14:57:56 <b_jonas> j-bot: ,(l$'o '),.~(?l$4){"0 1(l=.24)$4]\'\_|-/'
14:57:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o/ _o_ \o/ -o_ _o_ -o/ |o/ _o- \o_ |o_ _o_ _o_
14:57:57 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | |
14:57:59 <myndzi> /| |\ >\ /< |\ /| /'\ >\ /´\ /`\ /| /|
14:59:58 <j-bot> mroman_: |value error: wd9
15:00:15 <j-bot> mroman_: |ill-formed number
15:01:09 <b_jonas> [ ('no';'yes'){::~*# 'are shortcuts currently enabled on this channel?'
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15:02:22 <fizzie> As far as I know, that's the same as ((-)*-1)*-1 which is functionally equivalent to (-)*-1.
15:03:04 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, that bot does J, not K
15:03:29 <fizzie> The ()* isn't followed by a number so it's taken as ()*0 and the "-1" is just "-".
15:03:36 <myname> b_jonas: despite his name? that took me by surprise!
15:03:50 <mroman_> Is that some creepy J like thing too?
15:04:33 <b_jonas> mroman_: it's another crazy apl-like that takes itself a bit more seriously than J
15:04:40 <b_jonas> it's used a bit in finance industry
15:04:52 <b_jonas> it has arithemtic operations that don't check for overflow,
15:05:10 <b_jonas> semantically ordinary one-dimensional lists (instead of apl-like multi-dimensional lists)
15:05:31 <mroman_> They seem pretty serious about it
15:05:35 <b_jonas> well, some people consider J serious
15:05:59 <mroman_> But you consider K serious?
15:06:18 <b_jonas> as in, people actually use K for work to earn money
15:06:26 <b_jonas> and do computer science research with it
15:06:30 <myname> i thought J is dead serious
15:06:46 <b_jonas> as in trying to write partial compiler for it (which is kinda hard for such dynamically typed languages)
15:07:16 <b_jonas> you know, J and K are both so much dynamically typed that you might not even know in advance which parts of a statement are verbs and which are nouns
15:07:39 <b_jonas> it could change between multiple executions of the same line, though in typical programs it does not
15:07:43 <b_jonas> so it's impossible to compile
15:08:19 <b_jonas> more than languages where you just don't know if a value is a function or an array or a number or a string
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15:08:39 <mroman_> Burlesque is so serious it's got multi-threading
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15:08:45 <b_jonas> despite that, some guy actually worked on a compiler to compile much of practical programs
15:08:55 <b_jonas> where it's usually possible to infer most of the stuff automatically
15:09:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: what? does blsq even have linear-time indexable vectors and fast searching associative arrays yet
15:09:35 <b_jonas> I thought you said it didn't care about performance, or something
15:09:39 <mroman_> linear-time indexable vectors?
15:10:36 <mroman_> 1.7.4 at least has Map as a new data type, yes
15:10:41 <mroman_> which is an associative array
15:10:44 <b_jonas> I mean constant time indexable vectors
15:11:29 <b_jonas> man, this office internet access sucks so much that sometimes I wonder if I should buy a mobile internet for myself and route irc and other low-bandwidth stuff through it
15:11:53 <mroman_> but no @constant-time indexable
15:12:18 <mroman_> that be mostly useless anyway
15:12:26 <mroman_> since for accessing stuff you have to duplicate it first
15:12:34 <mroman_> duplicating a vector is probably O(n) then anyway
15:13:06 <mroman_> I might as well add IORefs
15:13:20 <mroman_> i need IO anyway for MVars
15:14:49 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, may I ask why you want threading in first place?
15:15:18 <mroman_> to spawn shell processes etc.
15:15:44 <b_jonas> oh! you mean to shell out to saner languages?
15:15:57 <mroman_> but also for multi-treading stuff
15:16:02 <mroman_> I have no idea what that stuff is
15:16:29 <b_jonas> great! so I can just call a C++ compiler and compile and execute whatever I want, and I don't have to program any blsq for that
15:17:16 <mroman_> that's not what you're supposed to do
15:17:25 <mroman_> `ls -lah` | grep foo stuff then in blsq
15:17:26 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- '`' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
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15:18:56 <mroman_> anyway. Burlesque is also a joke language
15:19:02 <mroman_> and having threads sounds kinda funny
15:19:14 <mroman_> it increases the wtf-is-that-factor a lot
15:19:34 <mroman_> you could write an IRC-Bot in Burlesque
15:19:43 <mroman_> (which you currently can not)
15:21:48 <mroman_> for all I care 1.7.5 will have an xml parser
15:21:57 <mroman_> but let's focus on 1.7.4 for now
15:26:35 <mroman_> b_jonas: It's mostly to screw with people asking for what it can't do and what it can do
15:26:50 <mroman_> and at some point somebody asks "can it download a file from the internet"
15:26:54 <mroman_> and the current answer is no
15:27:26 <mroman_> that might change some day
15:28:43 <myname> mroman_: you should definitly make some kind of interactive tutorial for blsq
15:30:38 <b_jonas> mroman_: so will 1.7.4 have mutable arrays?
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16:30:14 <Melvar> @let type ($) f a = f a
16:34:17 <Melvar> > Just Nothing :: Maybe $ Maybe a
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16:57:02 <mroman_> b_jonas: that could happen, yes
17:08:17 <Melvar> newsham: @let is a lambdabot command.
17:14:08 <newsham> right. i knew about ?let func decl and ?let data decl. i hadnt seen ?let type
17:16:22 <Melvar> So what I’m wanting to know is why I haven’t seen type-level ($) before.
17:19:02 <newsham> maybe suggest on haskell-cafe or #haskell ?
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19:30:00 <fizzie> ooh, Helsinki airport wifi works here outside at the bus stop too
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20:57:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tastyfish * New user account
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21:02:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flow chart]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40573 * Tastyfish * (+169) Created page with "flow_chart is an interpreted language that takes raster images of flow charts as its input. It is currently a work in progress (https://github.com/drummyfish/flowchart)."
21:03:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40574&oldid=39918 * Tastyfish * (+17)
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22:04:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SilkeEberly * New user account
22:04:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e btw you also had an i that could be removed, and for the same reason: i is equivalent to d if it's going to be applied only to an already evalutated function.
22:05:09 <ais523> btw, anyone interested in what the spambots are trying to do, we have a separate "attempted recent changes" log for them here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog
22:05:38 <ais523> filter 1 should be automatically blocking them, but for some reason, it isn't
22:06:13 <ais523> "Remember These Tips When You Buy an Apple PowerBook G4 Laptop Battery"
22:07:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/5/diff/prev/33]])
22:07:08 <oerjan> personalized spam, all the rage
22:07:29 <ais523> fixed a typo in the filter name
22:07:33 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
22:08:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/1/diff/prev/34]])
22:08:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/1/diff/prev/35]])
22:08:21 <ais523> just resetting filter 1, to see if it starts blocking them
22:08:42 <oerjan> was about to suggest. didn't you have trouble editing it before?
22:09:10 -!- GeekDude has joined.
22:09:20 <ais523> the problem with filter 1 is it catches so much spam that the software sometimes assumes it's broken
22:09:28 <ais523> even though it can only trigger on someone's very first edit
22:10:29 <ais523> btw, anyone who wonders what the spambots see, here you go: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning
22:10:47 <ais523> the spambots are definitely clicking "save page" on the resulting page, which is a trap button that /should/ block the person clicking it
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22:11:17 <ais523> normally I don't go for the red background on messages, but that one, it feels like it was warranted
22:11:31 <Sgeo> Could the trap button be made invisible to humans without spambots noticing?
22:11:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Not if the spambot is programmed correctly.
22:12:03 <ais523> those particular spambots? probably, but it'd be hard to set that up in a way that it'd only be invisible on pages where it should be, because it's a completely normal save page button HTML-wise
22:12:06 <ais523> spambots in generally, no
22:12:16 <Sgeo> Require a captcha to avoid seeing the button? *troll*
22:12:21 <ais523> these particular spambots aren't very clever, at least
22:12:28 <ais523> they still haven't figured out newlines
22:12:34 <ais523> almost all my filters rely on this fact
22:12:50 <ais523> it's been working well for years; if the spambots suddenly learn how to newline, I can add a different filter for whatever they change to
22:13:10 <Sgeo> I'm more scared for the innocent (but presumably illiterate) humans
22:13:31 <Sgeo> Well, or just tired, or or or
22:13:56 <ais523> they'd also have to make their very first edit to their own user page (rare, but possible), and use <br> tags but no newlines (very unlikely)
22:14:47 <oerjan> i think i saw at least one genuine user doing the first part recently.
22:15:09 <ais523> there are so many safeguards on that filters
22:15:18 <ais523> there are various weaker versions of it that prevent the edit but don't block
22:15:21 <elliott_> ais523: I think I had to add that red :p
22:15:30 <ais523> (a legitimate user got caught in one of those a while back, I had to apologise)
22:15:40 <ais523> elliott_: well it's a) never been triggered by a non-spambot, b) doesn't actually work
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22:39:38 <oerjan> `learn Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire.
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22:40:06 <oerjan> hi there. you beat me you rascal.
22:40:27 <oerjan> (although i didn't actually try to improve it further. brain hurts enough.)
22:41:04 <oerjan> also for added hilarity all of the following are equivalent: `ci, `cd, and `cc.
22:41:53 <int-e> fun. let me figure out how your code works
22:42:29 <oerjan> it's an heir of the infamous count2 program in the distribution.
22:43:26 <int-e> that was my inspiration as well
22:43:53 <oerjan> yeah but you changed the structure a lot.
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22:46:11 <int-e> well, I focussed on the right `ci part, which gives me a continuation that applied to itself, restarts the loop. so the other `ci first became ``sii (and a couple more s-es), which was my 34 character version, and then I found various opportunities to optimize (in particular, replacing the two ``sii by variations of `ci again)
22:46:48 <oerjan> yeah ``sii is the "normal" way of getting a loop in unlambda.
22:47:23 <int-e> ```sii`ci is a weird mix of ```sii``sii and ``ci`ci.
22:47:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``sii`ci: not found
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22:48:55 <oerjan> i think i forgot one case when checking how your program worked - looking back
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22:50:09 <int-e> I had a version of the program that I understood but I lost it, the current one is one that resulted from too many "oh maybe it still works if I do *that*" steps ;-)
22:50:22 <oerjan> hm ok EOF is as expected
22:50:35 <oerjan> well i understand it >:)
22:50:49 <int-e> (I can trace the program manually and see that it does indeed work)
22:52:58 <int-e> oerjan: well, just for fun, remove the second 'd', and explain to me why you get so many colons in the resulting output :)
22:53:36 <int-e> (Well, don't. I know why by now.)
22:54:30 <oerjan> it's because the two continuations take a bit of back and forth before the last one actually gets applied to itself.
22:55:10 <oerjan> and on each path through a : gets printed.
22:55:19 <oerjan> *through the first one
23:03:24 <int-e> oh, of course; `?:ird reduces to d if no colon was read, and that gives another way of doing if-then-else.
23:05:16 <int-e> I should've stuck to "successful" (which was what I wrote instead of "no colon was read" initially) ;-)
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23:12:34 <int-e> oerjan: too bad you couldn't get rid of the i in ```?:ird
23:13:51 <oerjan> i tried with ```@?:rd at some point but i couldn't get things right
23:35:28 <int-e> oh, wow, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?PATH/mitchs_1411597143&bf is evil; it triggers in the difference 'n'-'i' = 5.
23:38:36 <oerjan> and inexplicably that is the one _not_ marked cheat, right?
23:39:02 <int-e> because the cheating version is even worse :)
23:42:03 <oerjan> i'm sure that's precisely what all the sed versions do
23:42:35 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: the "non-cheating" version skips the next character and prints a newline if the difference of the previous two characters is 5.
23:43:57 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: the "cheating" one abuses the implementation (where by going left often enough, you can reach the program's source code) to encode the substring lengths in the source code itself, interspersed with newlines.
23:44:39 <int-e> I guess +[<+]< appears very frequently in brainfuck programs on the anarchy golf server
23:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?PATH/croyal_1411677162&java this guy is not very good at golf
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00:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> does tokenising gs2 with regexes make nooodl a bad person
00:10:31 <ais523> also, I doubt it's "wantonly creates BF derivatives and posts them to the wiki" levels of beign a bad person
00:12:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that tokenising regex is something within the power of regexes, basically because there's no nesting involved
00:12:34 <ais523> so I'd say it's within the technical realms of what regex can do
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00:37:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:SilkeEberly]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
00:38:12 <ais523> ooh, it started working
00:38:43 <ais523> let me go and manually confirm what the account was up to, given that it's the first automatic spambot block /ever/
00:39:28 <ais523> "I'm Ludie and I live in a seaside city in northern Switzerland, Tossriederen. I'm 27 and I'm will soon finish my study at Religious Studies.<br><br>My webpage: [http://example.com http://example.com]" (I changed the URL)
00:40:12 <ais523> it's not as obviously spam as normal, but it has many indicators (<br><br>, and the crazy URL duplication) of being generated by a spambot framework
00:40:17 <ais523> that, and the clickthrough warning
00:41:11 <ais523> haha, also, the same user had tried to make a similar edit yesterday
00:41:56 <int-e> must be human then, certainly no bot would show such flexibility ;-)
00:43:56 <ais523> my main regret is that I can't tweak it to reduce the block lengths to 24 years
00:44:16 <ais523> oh well, if a spambot actually gets past the filter and I have to block them manually, 24 years it is
00:44:23 <ais523> that way, we can identify fast filter breaches more easily
00:45:08 <ais523> huh, actually it's the third such block
00:45:13 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Log/Abuse_filter
00:46:39 <int-e> fwiw, the discrepancy between SilkeEberly and "I'm Ludie" would be enough to convince me.
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00:58:27 <zzo38> I wrote this code for multiplication in 6502 codes http://sprunge.us/GDBJ How can I fix it please?
01:06:33 <elliott_> ais523: I'm not sure the blocks are actually good.
01:06:36 <elliott_> they clutter up recent changes
01:07:03 <ais523> I was thinking, let's leave it like this for a while and see if we like it better or worse
01:07:15 <ais523> they're likely to make the abuse filter less spammy, at least
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01:09:29 <elliott_> yeah, but only you look at that :)
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01:11:08 <ais523> elliott_: more seriously, these blocks are autoblock enabled
01:11:14 <ais523> so they'll also stop the IP doing anything for 24 horus
01:11:29 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
01:11:50 <ais523> and for another 24 hours if the bot attempts to use the account again
01:11:53 <ais523> which many of these spambots do
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01:31:58 <ais523> I'm tempted to answer "there's actually a middle name between the ais and the 523"
01:33:30 <ais523> names are pretty flexible anyway
01:33:49 <ais523> e.g. see the various oklopol spellings, or omd at Agora
01:34:09 <ais523> I'm disappointed that the mandatory signatures rule got repealed, it was hilarious
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02:34:13 <Sgeo> Mandatory signatures rule?
02:43:16 <ais523> Sgeo: a rule that every email to a-b/a-o/backup had to have a signature that identified the person sending it
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03:07:12 <zzo38> I don't like the definition of pi (or tau) having to do with circles
03:08:14 <Taneb> zzo38, what definition would you prefer?
03:08:58 <zzo38> I prefer tau is the smallest positive solution of x for e^ix=0 which I think is the case
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03:09:25 <Taneb> I thought e^i*tau = 1?
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03:09:30 <zzo38> (Is it? I think it is a mistake...)
03:09:38 <zzo38> Yes, 1 is it should be; thank you
03:09:45 <zzo38> I made a mistake which I realized right away
03:10:29 <ais523> I thought e^itau = e^0i = 1
03:10:58 <zzo38> Yes you are correct
03:11:17 <zzo38> I made a mistake which I had realized right away after sending the line
03:11:53 <Taneb> zzo38, I think your definition and the circle definition are equivalent
03:12:15 <shachaf> Complex exponentiation seems more complicated than circles. But circles might be misleadingly complicated.
03:12:31 <coppro> Taneb: but one is more rigorous and beautiful
03:12:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I wanted to use numerical solutions rather than geometrical
03:13:04 <shachaf> By "equivalent" do you mean anything more than "they're both equal to pi"?
03:13:36 <Bike> well, if you take exponentiation to be defined by circles or vice versa
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03:14:09 <shachaf> Real numbers are so complicated anyway.
03:15:43 <Taneb> shachaf, Taylor series suggest e^ix = cos x + i sin x
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03:15:54 <Bike> don't need your spooky maths up in this
03:15:56 <Taneb> And cos and sin are generally defined in terms of geometry?
03:16:00 <zzo38> Also you have e^x you can have the infinite series to work it
03:16:20 <Jafet> cos and sin are generally defined by their power series
03:16:31 <Bike> where are you from
03:17:01 <Taneb> At the very least, they can be defined in terms of geometry
03:17:04 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes and if you use complex number it is even like e^x series too
03:17:48 <Bike> i think of cos as the triangle thing, or if i'm feeling more """advanced""", the gizmo that shows up in the inner product
03:18:52 <zzo38> Well, triangles are one of their uses (and is the reason it is called "trigonometry"), but there can be other things too
03:19:43 <Bike> and i think of complexes in polar coordinates, because i like spinning and it makes branch cuts seem sensible
03:20:42 <zzo38> I like the e^itau=1 definition for tau though, do you prefer this one rather than ones involving geometry?
03:20:54 <shachaf> whatever your definition of pi is it should work constructively
03:21:16 <zzo38> O, you want a constructive definition.
03:21:34 <Bike> obviously define it as the ideal of the something something something
03:21:48 <Bike> i think of exp(i*tau) as geometric so it's fine w/me either way i guess
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03:22:28 <Jafet> The positive real number whose digits are given by pi_10
03:22:40 <ais523> why not use e^itau = 1 as a definition of /e/?
03:23:03 <Bike> all four, define tau, e, i, and 1
03:23:44 <Taneb> Bike, I define them all equal to 1
03:23:48 <Bike> and sure, some haters might say that also works for e = 2, i = 7, tau = -39, and 1 = 1/15177100720513508366558296147058741458143803430094840009779784451085189728165691392, but we don't need that negativity in our lives
03:24:38 <Jafet> That interpretation of your definition was obviously wrong
03:25:11 <ais523> Bike: I'm more amused you had a bignum calculator to hand to calculate that definition of 1
03:25:17 <zzo38> ais523: I don't think so; you can better e define as the series, I think (just put 1 in place of x for the series of e^x)
03:25:23 <Bike> i'm being a mathematician, i can only say something is "obvious" if it's a special case of stokes's theorem. defining 1, now that's hard
03:25:38 <Bike> ais523: i have a lisp repl open usually
03:25:41 <shachaf> lambdabot is on everyone's hand
03:25:45 <Bike> as you can see, it's incredibly practical
03:26:00 <Bike> shachaf: yeah but lol like i have the attention span to remember haskell's exponentiation operators
03:26:08 <Bike> > 2 ** (7 * -39)
03:26:09 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘GHC.Num.*’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same ...
03:26:22 <lambdabot> 1517710072051350836655829614705874145814380343009484000977978445108518972816...
03:26:35 <shachaf> oh and it truncates the answer when you're not using /msg
03:26:37 <Bike> > 2 ** (0 - 7*39)
03:26:37 <Taneb> shachaf, lambdabot is not without her issues
03:26:40 <shachaf> which is probably a good thing
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03:27:08 <Bike> i don't even remember what the other one is
03:27:24 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Fractional a) => a -> b -> a
03:27:27 <Bike> > exp (0 - 7 * 39 * log 2)
03:27:27 <shachaf> Bike: oh are you a stokes' theorem expert
03:27:36 <Jafet> > let e = exp (-1); τ = 8*atan 1; i = 0 :+ 1 in e**(i*τ)
03:27:38 <lambdabot> 1.0000000000000009 :+ 2.4492935982947084e-16
03:27:42 <Bike> shachaf: i've been reading differential geometry on and off
03:27:44 <ais523> Bike: now you're reminding me of Chebyshev's sum inequality
03:27:49 <Jafet> > let e = exp (-1); τ = 8*atan 1; i = 0 :+ 1 in (1/e)**(i*τ)
03:27:50 <lambdabot> 0.9999999999999991 :+ (-2.4492935982947044e-16)
03:27:57 <shachaf> Bike: i was doing that recently
03:27:59 <ais523> not being able to memorize it is one of the reasons I wasn't really all that good at the high-level maths competitions
03:28:01 <shachaf> but a lot of it wasn't making sense
03:28:01 <Bike> it's pretty hard
03:28:11 <Bike> have you been reading spivak
03:28:22 <ais523> that one's the special case I could remember
03:28:22 <Bike> ok well that's the usual one, calculus on manifolds
03:28:25 <Bike> it's notoriously hard though
03:28:30 <ais523> I can't remember the one I couldn't remember
03:28:32 <ais523> possibly unsurprisingly
03:28:34 <Bike> the other one i like is um, lemme find it again
03:28:45 <Taneb> What am I doing awake
03:28:53 <Bike> listening to me talk about 3-forms
03:29:11 <shachaf> so what are n-forms anyway
03:29:12 <Bike> right, Applied Differential Geometry by Burke
03:29:16 <Bike> you might hate it though
03:29:18 <shachaf> the book i was reading was p. handwavy about it
03:29:28 <Bike> they're like... repeated wedge products of something
03:29:33 <shachaf> maybe it gets less handwavy later
03:30:46 <Bike> anyway i said the stokes theorem thing because early on in spivak he says "anyway, green's theorem and the cauchy riemann equations and gauss's theorem are boring trivial consequences of stokes's theorem, but you need to read a hundred pages of this book to know what the hell that means"
03:30:51 <Bike> in total seriousness
03:31:17 <shachaf> also it's a sort of adjunction
03:31:26 <shachaf> and adjunctions are the best??
03:31:45 <Bike> i just made the mistake of asking my physics prof how magnetism would work in four dimensions
03:31:48 <Taneb> Oh, I was thinking about the Black-Scholes equation
03:31:49 <Bike> it involves signed areas
03:31:53 <Taneb> Which is completely different
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03:32:22 <Taneb> Well, I guess they're similar in that I don't understand either
03:32:30 <shachaf> Bike: oh i was reading http://www.math.boun.edu.tr/instructors/ozturk/eskiders/fall04math488/bachman.pdf and it was a little less handwavy
03:32:32 <Bike> like 60% of basic electrodynamics is basically stokes's theorem, which is kind of hilarious
03:32:37 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points -3.00, score 17.69, rank 31/47
03:32:46 <Bike> well, electrostatics i guess
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03:33:19 <shachaf> all i wanted to know was what "dy" actually means :'(
03:33:22 <Bike> shachaf: applied differential forms is nice enough that i think i have a pretty good handle on what a tensor is
03:33:27 <Bike> and tensor products etc
03:33:42 <Bike> i kind of assumed you knew this stuff though
03:33:46 <Bike> aren't "pullbacks" a cat theory thing
03:33:59 <shachaf> i don't even know anything about analysis hth
03:34:01 <Bike> it's all bla bla fiber bundles bla bla
03:34:13 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullback_%28category_theory%29
03:34:29 <Bike> i can't read any of this shit
03:34:30 <shachaf> yes and someone in another channel tried to explain to me how the differential geometry pullbacks were a special case of the category pullbacks
03:34:40 <Taneb> This term I have an "Introduction to Group Theory" module.
03:34:44 <shachaf> but it was 05:00 and i didn't understand anything
03:34:51 <Bike> life is suffering
03:34:52 <Taneb> I have been introduced to group theory at least twice before
03:35:05 <shachaf> i guess that would be abelian group theory
03:35:30 <Bike> i wonder if i should take a class in this sometime, the last math class i took was vector calculus, which i've forgotten everything of which is why i grabbed spivak
03:35:46 <Bike> "de Rham cohomology" sounds like something i can shout if i'm on a spaceship that's going to sink and i need to fix it
03:35:57 <Bike> "We need to reroute the cohomological dampeners!" or something
03:36:23 <shachaf> i've p. much never taken a math class :'(
03:36:29 <shachaf> not sure why you assume i know any of these things
03:37:06 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/00dc7596f0c1d1936d02fc1407a91214/tumblr_ncbvooAB7C1r7tprao1_1280.png behold
03:37:29 <shachaf> anyway is the conclusion that i should read spivak
03:37:53 <Bike> i think spivak is the canonical text on it, that's all i'm sayin
03:38:12 <Bike> i've been using burke more, but he was a physicist and says things like "this works for normal functions, look at something else if you want proofs"
03:38:16 <zzo38> A category with more than one object has more monads than how many final objects it has. Is it correct? How do you call such a thing?
03:38:26 <Taneb> ...the module, which is called "Introduction to Group Theory", assumes knowledge of group theory
03:38:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Why of what?
03:39:02 <Bike> Taneb: maybe they just want you to be familiar with the basic "it's a thing where you can do multiplication" and the class is more like ok here's the residue of seven mod a billion
03:39:28 <Bike> or maybe they'll teach you about monstrous moonshine
03:39:29 <zzo38> I still don't understand your question
03:39:30 <Taneb> Bike, looking at the syllabus it seems a lot more detailed
03:39:38 <Taneb> (that what I have done previously)
03:39:58 <Bike> you don't sound sufficiently hype
03:40:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Why is the thing you said true?
03:40:25 <Taneb> Bike, it's 4:40 am, cut me some slack
03:40:42 <Bike> i guess you can get ye hype at a later time
03:40:48 <Bike> why are you awake at five am reading syllabuses
03:41:10 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa, sounds like the perfect time to ask why pullbacks are called that
03:41:20 <Taneb> I woke up accidentally an hour and a half ago I thik
03:41:37 <Bike> oh so you've gotten some sleep
03:41:40 <shachaf> Bike: also why do category people call them pushouts and other people call them pushforwards??
03:42:00 <Taneb> shachaf, I never figured out an intuition for pullbacks
03:42:12 <Bike> i'm sure there's some amazingly stupid reason borne of history
03:42:17 <Bike> geographic pullbacks seem reasonably easy
03:42:27 <Bike> something about compositions between maps or whatever
03:42:28 <zzo38> shachaf: O, now I understand you. Because there has to be a identity monad, and a final object also causes a monad (the functor maps everything to the final object)
03:42:57 <shachaf> zzo38: What about the category with one arrow? That one has one monad and one terminal object.
03:43:35 <shachaf> also those monads are isomorphic "do they even count"
03:43:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes but it has only one object, not two.
03:43:45 <Taneb> zzo38, what if there are two final objects and nothing else?
03:44:18 <shachaf> Oh, you said "with more than one object".
03:44:53 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/kHf69Dg.png blammo, pullbacks
03:45:08 <Taneb> Bike, if this is a longbow or something...
03:45:18 <Bike> no it's a pullback
03:45:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I did say that.
03:45:21 <Bike> with bonus pushforward
03:45:37 <zzo38> How do you call this theorem? Is there a better one?
03:46:22 <Bike> i literally did not understand what a dual was before this book, i'm a fucking moron & also great
03:46:34 <shachaf> there, you're stuck with it
03:46:44 <Taneb> zzo38, what about a category with no final objects?
03:46:51 <Bike> matrix more like (1 1) tensor
03:46:53 <shachaf> Taneb: It still has the identity monad.
03:47:02 <zzo38> Taneb: Then it still has identity monad.
03:47:06 <Taneb> shachaf, the theorem was >
03:47:34 <Taneb> So it must have more monads by the theorem?
03:47:43 <Bike> the dual of a linear space L is the linear space you get from fucking with "linear functionals" which are linear functions L -> R in the obvious ways
03:48:00 <Bike> then also some other stuff.
03:48:18 <shachaf> i was just reading about cotangent spaces today
03:48:33 <Bike> yeah that's in burke too
03:48:36 <Bike> got about a 40% handle on them
03:48:44 <Taneb> Aaaaaah what's a complete set of residues
03:49:18 <Bike> it's where you walk into a chemistry lab and mix everything up and scrape some samples off the wall after you get the fuck out of there
03:49:46 <Taneb> Bike, last time that happened here, we're not allowed to touch the lake any more
03:50:00 <Bike> i should hope not, do you know what they keep in those places
03:50:29 <Bike> here let me just reduce YOUR EYES
03:50:40 <zzo38> I think even an empty category has an identity monad (the definition of such a monad is also empty though; it doesn't have to be defined as an identity monad, as long as it is empty)
03:50:44 <Bike> i guess they probably don't keep, like, dimethylmercury.
03:51:06 <Bike> which is proooooobably the deadliest nonbiological chemical i can think of, not sure
03:51:34 <shachaf> what if you represent a vector space as a chu space
03:51:59 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think empty categories have a nonempty anything?
03:52:00 <Bike> i have enough trouble with the nine layers of topological spaces without generalizing them
03:52:27 <Bike> oh this is a perfect closed uncompleted degloved Hausdorff space
03:52:40 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it doesn't have a nonempty.
03:53:29 <ais523> I was always scared of even the relatively benign chemicals in school
03:53:32 <ais523> such as distilled water
03:53:43 <ais523> once I spilled distilled water on my hands, and immediately went to wash it off
03:53:48 <ais523> which probably technically made my hands dirtier
03:53:51 <Taneb> ais523, you can do a lot of damage with distilled water
03:54:03 <pikhq> Deionized must've made you really frightened.
03:54:09 <ais523> at the time I thought it was irrational; in retrospect, not sure how well humans cope with osmotic potentials /that/ out of range
03:54:19 <Bike> i gotta admit "deionized" sounds pretty nasty
03:54:22 <ais523> (probably quite well because it's not very out of range, and becomes less so upon contact with a human)
03:54:32 <ais523> pikhq: I think it was technically deionized rather than distilled
03:54:39 <Bike> ais523: yes, if you injected water into your bloodstream you would die, but that goes for other materials, such as undeionized water, or air
03:54:50 <ais523> is there much chemical difference? or is it just to do with manufacturing methods?
03:55:11 <elliott_> ais523: IIRC drinking distilled water isn't really dangerous or anything
03:55:23 <Bike> oh, drinking it is fine.
03:55:27 <Taneb> shachaf, he's still here, we're safe
03:55:41 <Bike> i don't know if you know this, but your stomach already has a pH difference of like, four, some fucking water ain't gonna do shit
03:55:41 <elliott_> I think the fearmongering about it is basically "you don't get the minerals that you get in less pure water"?
03:55:47 <ais523> elliott_: yes; technically it could be dangerous because human cell membranes can't cope with that sort of osmotic potential
03:56:00 <Taneb> On the topic of drinking water, I'm thirsty
03:56:01 <ais523> but it's not going to rupture many cells before it becomes normal water due to being inside a human
03:56:07 <ais523> who is full of soluble chemicals
03:56:07 <pikhq> DI water is a different manufacturing process, but for purposes of chemistry basically the same.
03:56:08 <Taneb> But the water here is harder than I'm used to :(
03:56:11 <Taneb> I need to get a filter
03:56:27 <ais523> is water hardness tasteable?
03:56:40 <Bike> i wanna get this across man, if regular cells were exposed to /regular/ water they would also explode, why do you think medfucks use saline
03:56:46 <ais523> I've noticed a difference in taste between different water suppliers, but thought it was due to other factors
03:56:55 <Bike> between hard water suppliers?
03:57:03 <ais523> although I assume things like the inside of the mouth have protection against that
03:57:23 <Bike> yes, your outsides are already dead, as per usual
03:57:51 <Bike> i should really be doing homework but i enjoy saying stupid bullshit much more
03:57:53 <pikhq> It seems the main health issues of distilled water is that you're likely to need somewhat more minerals in your diet.
03:58:17 <ais523> Bike: it makes a huge amount of sense to make as many of the outside-world-facing parts of the body out of dead cells as possible
03:58:18 <pikhq> But is otherwise utterly mundane, as you'd expect.
03:58:32 <Bike> did you know that vanadium has a biological role
03:58:37 <Bike> i don't even know what vanadium is, do you?
03:58:38 <elliott_> I kind of want to try drinking distilled water just to see what it tastes like
03:58:41 <Bike> like, it's an element
03:58:43 <ais523> they're in plentiful supply, can be designed to cope with the expected stresses, and you don't have to keep them in working order much beyond physical integrity
03:58:48 <Bike> elliott_: it tastes like nothing
03:58:56 <elliott_> Bike: yeah, but so does normal water
03:58:59 <elliott_> it's hard to imagine an even more boring taste
03:59:02 <Bike> some labs also have "industrial water" though, and you shouldn't drink that, even if it's on a bet
03:59:14 <shachaf> normal water has all sorts of taste
03:59:25 <ais523> I was told that the way the "distilled"/deionized water at school was purified made it unsafe to drink
03:59:31 <zzo38> Why is "Mathematical Universe Hypothesis" called that? I don't think it is a hypothesis (or a theory or anything), just a kind of philosophical idea I suppose
03:59:32 <ais523> not sure if that was actually true, or just to prevent students drinking it
03:59:35 <elliott_> heavy water isn't very dangerous either, iirc
03:59:41 <ais523> elliott_: there's some debate AFAIK
03:59:45 <pikhq> ais523: Might hypothetically be true of deionized?
03:59:49 <Bike> nah industrial water is just nonpotable runoff that's still useful for a few things
03:59:51 <ais523> the basic issue is that D has a larger mass than H
03:59:52 <pikhq> Deionized is somewhat less pure apparently.
03:59:57 <Bike> it's like... you know... yellowish
04:00:02 <pikhq> Chemical processes are used to remove salts.
04:00:03 <elliott_> ais523: well, "Because it would take a very large amount of heavy water to replace 25% to 50% of a human being's body water (water being in turn 50% - 75% of body weight[31]) with heavy water, accidental or intentional poisoning with heavy water is unlikely to the point of practical disregard."
04:00:09 <pikhq> But distilled water? Eh.
04:00:11 <ais523> which makes reactions run at a different speed to normal
04:00:18 <elliott_> or, more generally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water#Effect_on_biological_systems
04:00:28 <Bike> wanna feed some tunicates heavy ocean now
04:00:33 <Bike> watch em suck out the vanadium
04:00:36 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but the effect of drinking a small quantity of heavy water probably is nil.
04:00:38 <Bike> chromagen that shit
04:00:40 <ais523> elliott_: yes, what I'd heard is that there are known mechanism via which it could be a problem, but nobody was entirely sure if the dose you'd need was massively large
04:00:41 <elliott_> iirc it tastes identical to water though
04:00:45 <pikhq> Given that some of the water you drink is heavy *anyways*.
04:00:47 <elliott_> so it's probably not worth it except to be able to say you've done it
04:01:00 <pikhq> ais523: They've done experiments with rats.
04:01:01 <Bike> it would be cool if heavy water tasted different, i mean think of what that implies
04:01:03 <shachaf> Bike: is there a good irc channel to ask about some of these things in? ##math didn't work, surprisingly enough
04:01:15 <pikhq> Rats die at about 50%.
04:01:17 <Bike> shachaf: i don't know. i just have a physics buddy who's happy to throw thousands of books at m
04:01:22 <ais523> pikhq: this reminds me of when some people were trying to convince me aluminium was dangerous, and Wikipedia makes the point that it's one of the most abundant elements in the crust and you have a tendency to inhale largish quantities of it over your lifetime
04:01:26 <Bike> if you find one that sounds good though
04:01:27 <Taneb> Hexham had 27 mg/l, York has 93.5 mg/l ish
04:01:28 <elliott_> Bike: it's like how heavy metal tastes different to normal metals
04:01:32 <pikhq> I incidentally was talking with my girlfriend about this like a couple hours ago.
04:01:36 <Taneb> (Calcium in the water)
04:01:38 <elliott_> and grindcore is just a different experience altogether
04:01:44 <Bike> i don't need this
04:02:16 <Taneb> THAT'S THREE TIMES AS HARD
04:02:22 <Taneb> (it probably doesn't work like that)
04:02:42 <Bike> taste (well, smell more like) is basically a chemical classification, being able to taste heavy water would mean either you have some mechanism for distinguishing isotopes, which would be insane, or that even small amounts of the stuff react noticeably differently in a way we can pick up on
04:02:42 <ais523> now I'm wondering if water hardness is defined wrt calcium specifically or if other ions also count
04:02:54 <ais523> you'd need calcium (+ carbonate) to make limescale, so perhaps it is calcium specifically
04:03:06 <elliott_> grindcore is actually lighter than regular metal since it's all ground up so there's more air
04:03:20 <ais523> elliott_: is this protest surrealism again?
04:03:28 <elliott_> ais523: no, just the regular kind
04:03:29 <Bike> i think it's metal surrealism
04:03:30 <Taneb> ais523, Northumbria Water is measuring it in mg Ca/l
04:04:18 <Taneb> But York water is defining it as Calcium + Magnesium
04:04:34 <ais523> now I wonder if magnesium carbonate is a problem
04:04:45 <Taneb> (with the unit mg Ca/l, so maybe I'm misunderstanding Northumbria Water's)
04:05:40 <ais523> mg as in magnesium or milligrams?
04:05:48 <ais523> this sounds like a possible typo/misunderstanding
04:06:12 <Taneb> The Magnesium-only measurement is mg Mg/l
04:06:38 <Bike> it's gonna suck when that turns out to mean megagrams per lux
04:06:50 <Bike> oh lux is lx, oops
04:07:31 <Bike> oh right gauss is also a unit, so you've got milligrams (mg), megagrams (Mg), milligauss (mG), megagauss (MG)
04:07:44 <Bike> no, wait gauss is cgs, nevermind, crisis averted
04:07:47 <pikhq> Maybe it's megagauss per lumens.
04:07:50 <elliott_> you also have omg, milligrams of oxygen
04:08:03 <ais523> this reminds me of the interpretation of "MB" as "megabel", which is the technically correct interpretation
04:08:32 <Bike> i can't imagine ever writing the substance name before the unit
04:08:37 <Bike> kind of wish it did work like that now, tho
04:08:56 <pikhq> Magic the Gathering Online?
04:09:02 <Bike> also it would be O2MG unless you're dealing with free radicals i guess
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04:09:12 <ais523> this is a unit so large that possibly even Randall Munroe could fail to visualise quite how big it is
04:09:14 -!- ais523 has quit.
04:09:18 <pikhq> elliott_: No, but it may be a buttcoin.
04:09:23 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
04:09:28 <Bike> that would be, uh...
04:09:32 <Bike> ten million dB, huh?
04:09:44 <ais523> and saw /myself/ say "<ais523> this is a unit so large that possibly even Randall Munroe could fail to visualise quite how big it is" and then quit
04:09:48 <ais523> Bike: and dB are a log scale
04:10:01 <Bike> oh does that mean ten million orders of magnitude
04:10:04 <Bike> i'm no good with those units :(
04:10:06 <Taneb> ais523, maybe we should email him and ask how much damage it'd do
04:10:10 <ais523> one million orders of magnitude
04:10:19 <Bike> yeah i can't imagine that coming up outside of maths
04:10:40 <Bike> Taneb: if it was dB SPL, i.e. the usual "sound" interpretation of dB, that would probably be near planck pressure
04:10:47 <elliott_> U2 on the other hand is a radiation hazard, they're just that bad. okay these jokes are just, fucking terrible
04:10:55 <pikhq> Taneb: Well, a nuclear bomb is about 210 dB.
04:11:08 <Bike> you can use dB for things other than sound
04:11:15 <Bike> but i can't think of any physical application at all...
04:11:41 <pikhq> Signal to noise ratio on a radio signal.
04:11:58 <Bike> that's gotta be far below measurable, hasn't it
04:12:20 <ais523> 235 dB is approximately the ratio between 12g of carbon and a single atom of carbon
04:12:34 <ais523> (or a gram of hydrogen and a single atom of hydrogen)
04:12:38 <Bike> yeah, so now try a galaxy or something. i guess.
04:12:48 <pikhq> Exponents are nuts.
04:12:50 <ais523> but the problem is, you're just adding, not multiplying
04:13:43 <ais523> the Sun has a mass of about 2e30 kilograms, or 2e33 grams
04:13:51 <ais523> that's 333 dB away from one gram
04:13:53 <Taneb> According to Wolfram Alpha, Milky Way is 6*10^42 kg
04:14:12 <ais523> so there's a ratio of about 570 fB between the sun and a single atom
04:14:21 <ais523> 6e45 would be 455 dB away from a gram
04:14:29 <ais523> or 690 dB from an atom
04:14:35 <ais523> we're still so far away from a million
04:15:05 <zemhill> david_werecat.pheonix: points 7.12, score 27.61, rank 9/47
04:15:16 <Taneb> Observable universe, 3.4e57 grams
04:15:18 <Bike> well, anyway 1 MB SPL would be uh, somewhere around 10^9999993 pascals or something
04:15:23 <Bike> so actually rather larger than the planck pressure
04:15:36 <ais523> 6 isn't 5db, it's more than that
04:15:58 <Taneb> > logBase 10 6 * 10
04:16:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DeidreNBSbpdvb * New user account
04:16:16 <Bike> haha, wikipedia's largest example of pressure magnitude is still seventy orders of magnitude less than the planck pressure
04:16:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:DeidreNBSbpdvb]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
04:16:26 <ais523> Bike: what is that example?
04:16:32 <Bike> inside of a neutron star
04:16:49 <Bike> next most is twenty less, inside of uranium
04:17:08 <Bike> i like stars, they make physical units seem so meaningless
04:17:17 <pikhq> Ooooh, I know. The MB applies to numbers used in proofs.
04:17:21 <Bike> did you know there are possibly stars with strong enough magnetic fields to turn your atoms to spindles from Au away
04:17:33 <Bike> pikhq: yeah that's why i said "physical", it works with graham or some shit i imagine
04:17:35 <pikhq> Let's make it easy, and go with positive integers used in proofs.
04:17:38 <ais523> incidentally, this latest spew of spambots are all advertising sites with URLs that are different but similar (they all follow the same pattern), and that I don't remember seeing before
04:17:51 <pikhq> The ratio of 1 and graham's number in dB is probably absurd.
04:18:01 <ais523> pikhq: now we face the issue that it's much /smaller/ than Graham's number, yes
04:18:03 <Bike> turns out to be exactly ten million
04:19:14 <ais523> basically, the way to visualise Graham's number is, any method of describing it that doesn't first involve inventing a notation specifically for the purpose of describing it is going to fall far short
04:19:31 <elliott_> I read that as "inventing a nation"
04:19:38 <Bike> well, i think i've seen numbers like 10^10^100 a time or two in maths, i'm sure there's something
04:19:46 <elliott_> "if we give it about the population of china, and the inflation of zimbabwe..."
04:19:57 <Bike> lowest prime number to something something
04:20:00 <ais523> elliott_: doesn't B Nomic technically own a small raft on a lake somewhere?
04:20:17 <Bike> it should be that one lake in europe with no borders
04:20:39 <Bike> lake constance apparently
04:20:39 <ais523> what does "lake with no borders" mean?
04:21:00 <Bike> it's between switzerland, germany, and austria, but they don't have any agreement about where the borders are
04:21:18 <Bike> "Switzerland holds the view that the border runs through the middle of the lake, Austria is of the opinion that the contentious area belongs to all the states on its banks, and Germany holds an ambiguous opinion. Legal questions pertaining to ship transport and fishing are regulated in separate treaties."
04:21:47 <pikhq> ais523: Aware, and pleased, that graham's number is that absurd.
04:22:08 <Bike> how are the bounds on that problem doing, btw
04:22:40 <Bike> they got it down to 2 ^^ 2 ^^ 2 ^^ 9 apparently
04:22:44 <ais523> "The last ten digits of Graham's number are ...2464195387"
04:22:51 <ais523> I love that someone has calculated them
04:23:00 <ais523> presumably using modular arithmetic optimizations
04:23:18 <Bike> yeah, the final digits of anything under repeated exponentiation become constant after a while.
04:23:43 <Bike> actually wikipedia explains it. i mentioned this somewhere a few days back...
04:24:06 <Bike> anyway so the bounds are 13 <= answer <= 2 ^^ 2 ^^ 2 ^^ 9.
04:24:13 <ais523> oh, huh; I remember the book that introduced me to Graham's Number conjectured that the actual answer was 6, but that's apparently been disproved
04:24:45 <Bike> the 13 bound is on arxiv if you want to "check that shit out" http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.1055
04:25:14 <Bike> i have no idea why they mention graham's number though, since it was the known bound for like two seconds
04:25:29 <ais523> now, of course, the harder problem is knowing the first few digits of Graham's number
04:25:40 <ais523> I conjecture that the very first digit is a 1
04:25:52 <ais523> (statistically, this should have around a 40% chance of being correct)
04:25:54 <Taneb> ais523, I reckon it's 7
04:26:09 <Bike> i forget, don't you need some assumptions for benford's law
04:26:29 <Taneb> ais523, that statistic terrifies me
04:26:43 <Bike> benford's law is pretty weird yeah.
04:26:52 <ais523> Taneb: well think about it this way, in binary, all numbers start with 1, except for 0
04:27:13 <ais523> now I wonder what the proportion of numbers that start with 1 in ternary is
04:27:22 <pikhq> Bike: Log of the numbers must be uniformly and randomly distributed, basically.
04:27:36 <Bike> i'm not sure how you'd pick a distribution...
04:27:43 <ais523> and what it is in base infinity, the limit (wouldn't surprise me if it were 1/e or something like that)
04:27:47 <Taneb> ais523, naively, 1/2
04:28:00 <ais523> Taneb: it's way higher than 1/2
04:28:02 <Bike> someone write some incomprehensible haskell fragment to get the first digits of repeated exponentiations
04:28:05 <Taneb> And in base infinity, 0?
04:28:40 <ais523> Taneb: well base infinity doesn't actually exist in most concepts of infinities
04:28:51 <ais523> but presumably the limit of benford's law does
04:29:26 <ais523> "The discovery of Benford's Law goes back to 1881, when the American astronomer Simon Newcomb noticed that in logarithm tables (used at that time to perform calculations) the earlier pages (which contained numbers that started with 1) were much more worn than the other pages."
04:29:31 <ais523> pity you can't do proofs like that
04:30:34 <Bike> wonder if that works with other tables
04:30:47 <Bike> from what little i know of ship navigation i dunno if that would happen with trig tables
04:32:38 <ais523> "The 1974 Vancouver, Canada telephone book violates Benford's law because regulations require that telephone numbers have a fixed number of digits and do not begin with 1."
04:32:42 <ais523> that is an oddly specific example
04:33:00 <Bike> easy to find if you're looking for benford counterexamples, though
04:33:14 <ais523> in the UK, it's hard to say what telephone numbers start with
04:33:21 <ais523> is it +44, 0, or "any digit except 0"?
04:33:40 <Bike> yeah in the US i'm never sure whether to dial 1 or what
04:34:16 <elliott_> figuring out how to dial externally on hotel phones is "fun"
04:34:20 <ais523> Bike: in the UK, if you know the number of the phone you're calling from, it's easy to know how many digits of the target phone number to use
04:34:30 <ais523> elliott_: huh, "leading 9" isn't standard?
04:34:43 <Bike> it's standard enough to be in the US, and yet, still confusing
04:35:40 <Bike> if you were in europe you should have visited my hot pad in liechtenstein
04:35:51 <Bike> if you were in antarctica, you should have caught a penguin
04:35:55 <pikhq> Maaan, problems that I'm not used to.
04:36:19 <pikhq> I just put in the full number in my cell phone.
04:36:24 <elliott_> you know the uk is in europe right
04:36:36 <Bike> the "continent"
04:36:52 <pikhq> +1 533 555 2133 TADA dialing happens
04:37:02 <Bike> if you were in africa you should have gotten a weltwischia and given it to me
04:37:12 <elliott_> how have phone numbers survived into 2014?
04:37:33 <Bike> probably because telephony is the weird infrastructural basis of all the stuff we actually use
04:37:51 <pikhq> Same way Ireland's managed to somehow survive with ambiguous mailing addresses.
04:38:05 <Bike> i bet if i looked it up calling you would involve a protocol invented by shannon in 1833
04:39:05 <pikhq> Seriously, the address scheme is "Name, Townland, Town, County".
04:39:18 <Bike> also phone people probably get mocked by internet people, and then they reply by asking them how ipv6 is going
04:40:13 <pikhq> Taneb: Weird geographical subdivision.
04:40:18 <elliott_> Bike: at least we don't use IPs as UI, much
04:40:34 <pikhq> Basically, if two guys with the same name are neighbors Irish mail breaks.
04:40:35 <Bike> well nowadays we don'ot do that with phones much either, as pikhq said
04:40:36 <Sgeo> If you're in a hotel in an emergency, is it 9911 or 911?
04:41:01 <Taneb> What if it's not in the US?
04:41:02 <Bike> ah, but what if you're in algeria
04:41:22 <Bike> and you're on a crashing plane with hitler and leopold ii, and you have only a single bullet?
04:41:24 <pikhq> The North American dialing plan is actually rigged so that "dial 9 for an outside line" can special case 911.
04:41:39 <Taneb> Bike, I'd shoot myself.
04:41:44 <elliott_> rememeber to tell them you're in algeria so they can dispatch cops quickly
04:41:47 <Sgeo> pikhq: what happens if someone doesn't realize that and attempts 9911?
04:41:48 <Taneb> If I was in such a bad riddle, there's no point living
04:41:53 <Bike> i don't see how that accomplishes dialing the phone
04:42:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably just works?
04:42:19 <Bike> maybe if you shot yourself in such a way that you fell onto the typing pad
04:42:25 <Bike> so let's say it's also a rotary phone
04:42:28 <pikhq> Numbers don't otherwise start with 9 in the US.
04:42:57 <Bike> actually i guess i just said you had a bullet, not a gun
04:43:05 <Bike> you could like, choke yourself with it, depending on the size of the bullet
04:43:29 <Bike> or just get hitler to strangle you...
04:43:53 <Bike> leppy would probably refuse to touch you
04:44:17 <elliott_> shoot the window and jump out and land on top of a phone
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04:44:32 <elliott_> get hitler to spit the bullet really hard
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04:45:03 <ais523> many UK phones recognise 911 as an emergency number even though it isn't actually meant to have a special meaning in the UK
04:45:15 <ais523> because it's too short to be a regular number, and some people grow up on US TV shows
04:45:23 <Taneb> ais523, what about 50
04:45:35 <ais523> (the actual emergency number in the UK is 112, per the rest of Europe; also 999 for backward compatibility)
04:46:08 <Taneb> Hang on, that isn't actually an emergency number
04:46:18 <ais523> I don't know if there are any meaningful numbers shorter than three digits, except on mobile
04:46:28 <elliott_> ais523: does anyone really remember it as 112
04:46:40 <ais523> even the number you dial when you want a human at the switchboards to do the switching manually was changed from 0 to 100
04:46:41 <Bike> double hockey sticks to (the max)
04:46:42 <pikhq> IIRC GSM phones actually map all the emergency numbers to the local one.
04:46:45 <Taneb> iirc 112 works in Australia
04:46:58 <ais523> elliott_: well I do, but I use 999 when talking to other people to not confuse them
04:47:05 <ais523> people being confused in an emergency is generally a bad idea
04:47:14 <Bike> dracula, dracula
04:47:17 <elliott_> I didn't know about 112 until now (I've only dialed 999 once in my life though)
04:47:54 <Bike> i think the last time i called 911 was to see if the police would come by to unlock someone's car for them (they wouldn't)
04:47:57 <Taneb> I've known about 112 for a few years
04:48:07 <ais523> all the instances I've needed to do an emergency call, either a) I had someone else actually make the call because they had phone access, or b) I was at work, which has a separate emergency number because they have their own local emergency services
04:48:19 <Taneb> Never done an emergency phone
04:48:30 <Bike> i have called emergency services later, but it was a regular phone number, and also i think privatised
04:48:36 <ais523> elliott_: I believe all the payphones have an "Emergency: 999 or 112" in the instructions; and I /think/ it's in that order
04:48:43 <Bike> wow why did i spell that with an s
04:48:46 <pikhq> I've only ever experienced my phone randomly deciding to dial 911 of its own accord.
04:48:49 <pikhq> Which was awkward.
04:49:01 <elliott_> 999 was useless the one time I did call so I don't plan to call again
04:49:11 <Bike> elliott's just going to shout really loudly
04:49:12 <ais523> they added a new semi-emergency number for the NHS recently, whose intended semantics are "I think this is an emergency but I'm not sure"
04:49:33 <elliott_> Bike: it would be about as useful, yeah
04:49:38 <Bike> spitting up blood and pieces of liver atm is this normal
04:49:49 <ais523> can't remember what it is, but it's the same digit three times, so there are only eight possibilities
04:50:34 <ais523> presumably 000 is reserved for if you need to make interplanetary calls
04:50:43 <Bike> or just shout into the void
04:50:46 <ais523> (given that 0 is the national dialing prefix, and 00 international)
04:50:57 <Taneb> 101 is non-emergency police
04:51:07 <pikhq> And Earth is probably +000.
04:51:12 <Bike> the 'can you come by with a slim jim' number
04:51:20 <pikhq> +00017193529351 oh yeah
04:51:44 <ais523> Taneb: huh, they have a short number for that now?
04:51:52 <Taneb> ais523, they have for a few years
04:51:53 <ais523> last I checked it was seven digits, like most numbers
04:52:00 <Taneb> Northumberland was one of the trial areas
04:52:06 <ais523> (eight in london, six if you live somewhere small enough you don't need seven)
04:52:30 * pikhq wonders if he's going to randomly get a call now
04:53:17 <Taneb> pikhq, I was tempted, but I don't think I get cheap calls to wherever you are
04:53:53 <ais523> Taneb: the cheapest way to call the US from the UK is to use a reseller who just VoIPs to the US, then uses the US phone system for the "last mile"
04:54:05 <Bike> are you satisfied with your current long distance provider
04:54:07 <ais523> Skype are the most reputable company doing this, there are tons of smaller ones
04:54:17 <Taneb> (I get free calls from the EU to the UK, and possibly to the EU)
04:54:38 <ais523> I remember calling the UK from Hungary, it had a pretty reasonable cost
04:54:43 <ais523> I also attempted to call the UK from Canada, once
04:55:01 <Bike> oh yeah, i was gonna keep skype on nowadays.
04:55:09 <ais523> anyone who's attempted to use a payphone in Canada will probably have a good idea what happened next
04:55:28 <Taneb> I don't get UK -> Rest of Europe for free
04:55:33 <Taneb> But I do get ROE -> ROE
04:55:37 <ais523> anyway, it took about five to ten minutes to calculate how much the call would cost
04:55:49 <pikhq> Funny enough, I'd just have to pay $10 this month and I'd get US->UK unlimited. Spiffy.
04:55:50 <ais523> and the result was a) quite large, b) you had to pay it entirely in coins
04:56:01 <ais523> I didn't physically have enough Canadian currency to be able to pay it without using notes
04:56:17 <Taneb> ...I owe one of my lecturers 20p
04:56:35 <ais523> (incidentally, I recently discovered a US dime in my wallet, together with all the random euros; I have no good reason to have one, so I assume someone gave it to me assuming it was a UK five pence coin)
04:56:56 <pikhq> ... probably helps that my phone company's corporate overlords are in Germany.
04:57:03 <ais523> a dime is smaller, but not by so much that you'd necessarily notice making change at a shop
04:57:09 <Taneb> ais523, a vending machine gave me a mysterious coin with a star-and-crescent in place of a fivepence
04:57:26 <Bike> muslims taking over britain, oh no
04:57:58 <zzo38> Taneb: Maybe someone put in that coin, on accident and happen to accept anyways, or on purpose since the coin is a similar size enough that it can fit anyways. Do you know how much such a coin is worth?
04:58:12 <pikhq> Taneb: Alas, it's probably more sensible to randomly send me mail.
04:58:44 <Bike> oh, rupees have star and crescent on em
04:58:59 <Taneb> pikhq, what's your address (not really serious, I wouldn't know what to send)
04:59:07 <pikhq> Taneb: $ whois pikhq.com
04:59:24 <Bike> http://www.chiefacoins.com/Database/Countries/Pak-50Rupees_1997Cu.jpg rollin' in (extremely common) ca$h monie$
04:59:28 <coppro> .ca offers free personal info hiding on domains
04:59:53 <ais523> loads of registrars do that nowadays, some registries too
04:59:53 <pikhq> I've not exactly ever been secretive about my personal info.
05:00:12 <Taneb> pikhq, your city is listed the same as your street name
05:01:07 <pikhq> Well, the info that's in there would actually get routed correctly. The USPS would probably scribble something about an incorrect address format though.
05:01:33 <Taneb> I could probably get the city from the zip code?
05:01:36 <coppro> pikhq: I assume they do that just to avoid having to deliver your mail
05:02:03 <pikhq> Street address + ZIP is sufficient, it's just not correct.
05:02:05 <elliott_> ais523: reputable but maybe not worthy of that reputation.
05:02:16 <pikhq> coppro: Nah. USPS is crazy-awesome about mail delivery.
05:02:33 <ais523> elliott_: well, the others are even shadier AFAICT
05:02:52 <Taneb> What's with the US and their absurdly high house numbers
05:02:56 <ais523> they mostly advertise via: posters in downmarket corner shops; or fliers inexpertly stuck to the walls of payphone booths (mostly at an angle)
05:03:09 <ais523> Taneb: could just be absurdly long roads?
05:03:15 <elliott_> ais523: I think there are plenty of reasonable VoIP type providers?
05:03:18 <pikhq> Taneb: We don't like house numbers that don't end in 0.
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05:03:43 <ais523> there's a few roads near where I live which have house numbers over 1000, and it's quite easy to verify that it's as a result of having more than 1000 houses
05:03:45 <Taneb> The highest street number I've lived in was (depending how you count it), 6-18 or 10
05:04:00 <ais523> well, near in the relative sense
05:04:02 <pikhq> House numbers here are as a rule at least 3 digits.
05:04:15 <coppro> here, they generally have 3
05:04:20 <Taneb> Currently I'm at number 7
05:04:27 <coppro> but that's because it's typical to jump to the next 100 every time you get to a cross street
05:04:33 <ais523> house numbers in the UK are pretty standardised; start from 1 on one side of the road and 2 on the other, increase by 2 for each house on each side
05:04:34 <elliott_> I know US house numbers that don't end with 0...
05:04:35 <pikhq> Street with 2 houses? They're called 100 and 200.
05:04:45 <coppro> so that you can figure out which block a property is on by looking at the number
05:04:47 <ais523> if you build new houses later append letters
05:04:49 <Taneb> ais523, my street doesn't have any even numbers
05:04:49 <pikhq> elliott_: Yeah, but such aren't the norm.
05:04:59 <ais523> Taneb: it has houses only on one side?
05:05:06 <coppro> usually they go up as described by ais523
05:05:20 <coppro> sometimes by larger increments though where the city might subdivide
05:05:22 <pikhq> Also, numbering in the US is not generally systematically organized.
05:05:24 <ais523> one of my friends lives on a road that disobeys this rule, apparently people get very confused when visiting
05:05:27 <coppro> (especially in urban areas with large properties)
05:05:29 <Taneb> And some streets with houses on one side they have all the numbers
05:05:40 <pikhq> An individual city or region will generally have a rule, but it's unlikely to be the same rule across areas.
05:05:40 <Taneb> (such as my holiday-time address)
05:05:40 <ais523> in very rural areas sometimes they don't number at all and just use names
05:05:44 <coppro> IIRC there's even a general rule about which side of the road gets which number
05:05:55 <coppro> ais523: though I think for posting, you need to use the number
05:06:25 <ais523> the post service are quite good at figuring out addresses, generally
05:06:33 <pikhq> Some areas, like Utah, actually give addresses in the form of coordinates on a Cartesian grid overlaid on the city.
05:06:42 <pikhq> (which is really nice once you get used to it)
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05:07:02 <AndoDaan> i read once about somebody in england who lost his house number (4) because the road got expande. In england you can name your house, so he called his hous Four.
05:07:03 <Taneb> (here the other side of the road is a very narrow piece of woodland, then a sports field or part of my uni beyond that)
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05:07:27 <ais523> good news! it wasn't my connection that time
05:07:30 <ais523> rather, my client segfaulted
05:08:42 <pikhq> (for those of you who really wanna give me mail or knock on my door, but are too lazy to look up what my ZIP code maps to, I live in St Louis!)
05:09:11 <pikhq> (and please don't be creepy, or I shall be forced to answer the door in the nude)
05:09:33 <AndoDaan> damn, and i already bought the plane ticket
05:12:39 <zzo38> AndoDaan: Are you sure it is allowed to be called the same as numbers? Can't it become confusing then?
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05:13:51 <AndoDaan> i guess the council never thought about that, just that people would always want to their house normal house name. like 'the crumudgide'
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05:14:55 <AndoDaan> and it was only until somebody "needed' a reason to call their house a number (eventhough four is a series of letter) that they did.
05:15:30 <AndoDaan> but thats my reasoning, just a funny anecdote somebody put online.
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05:17:48 <zzo38> What I think is if they need to change house numbers, then they should change the name of the street too, so that if it is referred by the number, you can still not confuse mail already in transit
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05:19:13 <AndoDaan> that's what i like about programmers, they're always looking for the worst edge case.
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05:21:06 <AndoDaan> but thinking about it, they number roads that change each, what, week on a national level must be considerable.
05:22:42 <AndoDaan> now with electonic mail and soon 3d car downloading, that amazing system willl be obsolete.
05:28:54 <Taneb> I'm gonna try and get some more sleep
05:32:51 <int-e> AndoDaan: right ... until you shop online and have the goods delivered to your home. oops.
05:33:34 <AndoDaan> 3d car download covers that, just mark it "not a car though". it's very well though out.
05:35:10 <zzo38> I still sometimes use postal mail though
05:35:51 <AndoDaan> are you, like, a crazy person?
05:36:25 <AndoDaan> i kid. i think being able to write proper letter is a great skill.
05:36:28 <zzo38> What do *you* think?????????????????????????????????????????
05:36:50 <AndoDaan> wow, 3 too many '?' definitely a nutjob.
05:37:11 <int-e> zzo38: Well, you being here tilts the balance towards "crazy" already.
05:37:32 <zzo38> Did you see what it says on Wikipedia?
05:37:54 <int-e> About? Question marks???!1?
05:38:03 <zzo38> I mean on my user page
05:40:28 <int-e> I'm not wading through all those banners...
05:41:00 <int-e> (Though I find the "STOP GLOBAL BLOATING" one kind of ironic in context.)
05:41:43 <int-e> I see. "This user needs more userboxes. MORE, I tell you, more!!! Muhahaha!"
05:44:23 <zzo38> Yes, it is kind of ironic in context
05:59:25 * Sgeo decides zzo38 is CR-schrodinger
05:59:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which means what?
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06:39:47 <zemhill> david_werecat.pheonix: points 7.38, score 27.86, rank 9/47 (--)
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08:21:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40575&oldid=40309 * Quincunx * (+0) /* Documentation */
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09:43:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MillieDCVO * New user account
09:43:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:MillieDCVO]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
09:44:56 <AndoDaan> too fast. the bots are in kahoots, one making the other look good. to gain our trust.
09:45:19 <scarf> same spam pattern as the other bots today
09:45:46 <scarf> this one appears to be trying to manipulate search results for the phrase "remove flouride from tap water"
09:46:01 <scarf> which is a) misspelt, b) reminiscent of a conspiracy theory
09:46:07 <AndoDaan> and ruin my teeth? no thank you. evil bot.
09:47:55 <AndoDaan> the spam filter can't recognize conspiracy looking stuff, can it?
09:48:04 <scarf> no, just terrible use of newlines
09:48:12 <scarf> or, well, if a /specific/ conspiracy is spammed a lot
09:48:15 <scarf> we could tweak the filter to block it
09:48:19 <scarf> just the same as a specific anything else
09:48:26 <int-e> it can if the<br><br>conspiracy theory is tagged accordingly
09:49:07 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg
09:50:35 <AndoDaan> yeah, but dihydrogen monoxide does that too. i'm not too woried.
09:51:27 <shachaf> causes apathy about fluoridation
09:51:28 <int-e> A lot of stuff has been used by Nazis, good luck avoiding it all.
09:51:45 <scarf> shachaf: *flouridation
09:51:48 <scarf> it's a misspelt conspiracy
09:52:02 <scarf> that said, who came up with the spelling of "fluoride" anyway
09:52:56 <int-e> Oh and obviously I couldn't care less about all the stuff that causes apathy.
09:53:16 <fizzie> shachaf: On Wednesday and Friday I rode a monorail! A monorail is_a kind of a train!
09:53:37 <shachaf> fizzie: You should inform the folks in #trains of this!
09:53:42 <scarf> magnetic levitation, or just unicycle-style?
09:53:48 * scarf imagines a unicycle train
09:53:57 <int-e> . o O ( fizzie has a one-track mind?! )
09:54:02 <fizzie> scarf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-Bahn#D.C3.BCsseldorf_Airport <- this Düsseldorf airport one, so the hanging-from-the-rail style.
09:54:34 <scarf> that reminds me more of a cable car than a train
09:54:47 <scarf> although the term "cable car" maybe means something different in US and UK english
09:55:08 <scarf> in the UK they normally hang below the cable and are used as a fast method to transport people up or between mountains
09:55:21 <scarf> there aren't many of them because we don't have many mountains, they're basically just there for touristy purposes
09:58:29 <fizzie> They call it a SkyTrain, so it has to be a train.
09:58:37 <fizzie> But sure, it's more like that.
09:58:55 <fizzie> I think one distinction is that it moves under its own power, instead of being dragged by the cable.
09:59:53 <fizzie> That should be "junista", really. If "do you (plural) like trains" is what you were aiming for.
10:00:38 <scarf> "junista" has a nice sound to it, even if I don't know what it means
10:01:05 <shachaf> I was going for plural-you, though I guess only one Finnish speaker is active right now.
10:01:47 <shachaf> So what are "juna", "junat", "junista", "junalla"?
10:03:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KandaceMQMT * New user account
10:04:13 <AndoDaan> i'm sure that's one a bot too.
10:04:14 <shachaf> Yes, but I meant what they mean here. But maybe I can figure it out.
10:04:33 <fizzie> "junista" would be the plural elative case, I guess, but I don't have any idea why it's used as the case for 'like'.
10:04:50 <fizzie> Possibly just for the heck of it.
10:05:13 <shachaf> What would the singular be?
10:05:18 <fizzie> "junalla" would be the singular adessive case, if you were going somewhere *on* a train, which matches the English pronoun.
10:05:31 <fizzie> "pidätkö junasta", if there's a particular single train you might or might not like.
10:05:34 <scarf> AndoDaan: well it hasn't tried to edit yet
10:05:40 <fizzie> Or "pidättekö" if the you is also plural.
10:07:06 <fizzie> And "pidättekö junat" actually would most likely be interpreted as "will you be keeping the trains"; something you could ask after a test drive if you were selling trains, I guess.
10:07:16 <fizzie> (For a different sense of the verb 'pitää'.)
10:13:14 <fizzie> At least in "pidättekö junat" 'will you keep the trains' I think it's the accusative case.
10:13:51 <fizzie> The singular would be "pidättekö junan".
10:14:05 <fizzie> (Sometimes the accusative is identical to the nominative.)
10:15:31 <fizzie> https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-cases.html might be a good overview of the Finnish noun cases.
10:15:36 <fizzie> And Korpela's website in general.
10:16:31 <shachaf> J_Arcane2: I think you're at least missing a ko.
10:16:36 <fizzie> It doesn't list accusative as a noun case in the table, but it's mentioned in note #15.
10:16:50 <J_Arcane2> My brain's a bit mush at the moment.
10:17:21 <J_Arcane2> I'm studying it, but sometimes on the weekends my brain just rebels for the first day after a week of being shouted at in Finnish ...
10:18:03 <fizzie> And informally -- at least when speaking instead of writing -- you could probably "legally" leave the -ko out.
10:18:25 <fizzie> If you otherwise sound interrogative enough.
10:18:52 <scarf> so many prepositions become cases in other languages
10:19:06 <scarf> although, English has a genitive, that's a preposition in French
10:19:11 <shachaf> Presumably a bit like "You're studying Finnish?" rather than "Are you studying Finnish?".
10:19:17 <J_Arcane2> That's the trouble with learning Finnish; it's taught in the strictest style possible, while many actual Finns are a lot more loose about things.
10:19:48 <scarf> preposition ←→ case seems like a common transformation between languages
10:20:38 <shachaf> What is the disadvantage of prepositions?
10:20:41 <J_Arcane2> Yes. English has a surplus of prepositions.
10:21:37 <scarf> "(Even Finns have problems in selecting the correct case when using a less common municipality name. A list of municipality names and their cases has been composed for such purposes.)"
10:21:47 <J_Arcane2> The infinitive "to" form, for instance, doesn't seem to be bothered with in many other languages. Same with "The", which is instead often either implied or just a case.
10:21:47 <scarf> shachaf: well, there is this thing I was working on called grammartree
10:22:01 <scarf> prepositions were one of the hardest bits to handle
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10:37:16 <mroman_> !bfjoust watch (>>>+++)*3>([(+)*9[-].]>)*4
10:37:17 <zemhill> mroman_.watch: points -34.21, score 2.80, rank 47/47
10:37:25 <mroman_> !bfjoust watch (>>>+++)*3>([(+)*9[-].]>)*-1
10:37:25 <zemhill> mroman_.watch: points -18.57, score 8.65, rank 47/47 (--)
10:37:53 <mroman_> !bfjoust watch (>>>+++)*3>([(+)*9[-].]>)*4(<<<--)*3([(+)*9[-].]>)*-1
10:37:55 <zemhill> mroman_.watch: points -27.29, score 4.28, rank 47/47 (--)
10:38:00 <fizzie> This whole "inner/outer case is completely random for place names" thing is silly.
10:38:51 <scarf> what happens if you intentionally use the wrong one?
10:39:04 <fizzie> An exception is thrown.
10:39:15 <mroman_> !bfjoust slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>([(-)*10[+]]>)*-1
10:39:16 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -26.69, score 5.26, rank 47/47
10:39:19 <mroman_> !bfjoust slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>([(-)*10[+].]>)*-1
10:39:20 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -27.50, score 5.15, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:22 <fizzie> Okay, in many cases it just "sounds wrong".
10:39:24 <mroman_> !bfjoust slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:25 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -26.14, score 5.41, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:31 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:31 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -26.14, score 5.41, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:39 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:39 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -25.45, score 5.65, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:42 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:42 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -24.95, score 5.86, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:45 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:45 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -24.33, score 6.17, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:49 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:49 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -22.67, score 6.73, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:52 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:52 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -21.69, score 7.16, rank 47/47 (--)
10:39:57 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:39:57 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -21.60, score 7.26, rank 47/47 (--)
10:40:00 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>>>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:40:01 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -21.02, score 7.58, rank 47/47 (--)
10:40:07 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>>>>>>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:40:07 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -21.12, score 7.54, rank 47/47 (--)
10:40:16 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>--)*6>>>>>>>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:40:16 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -21.52, score 7.33, rank 47/47 (--)
10:40:27 <mroman_> !bftest slow (>(+)*128)*3(>-)*6>->->->->->->->([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1
10:40:27 <zemhill> mroman_.slow: points -21.21, score 7.34, rank 47/47 (--)
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12:05:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BernadeMerz * New user account
12:05:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:BernadeMerz]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
12:11:30 <ais523> it's hardly spamming recent changes because it normally comes right after a spambot creating an account, which is also a recent changes action
12:12:01 <ais523> "has lots of interests that include frisbee golf, acne scars removal and collecting"
12:12:09 <ais523> clearly these are randomly generated profiles
12:12:29 <ais523> ah no, acne scar removal's what they're advertising, but the link is elsewhere
12:12:54 <ais523> incidentally, according to Wikipedia, frisbee golf does actually exist
12:13:19 <AndoDaan> never played it, but if i could i would.
12:13:53 <ais523> "A disc is considered at rest once it is no longer moving. If the disc breaks into pieces the largest piece establishes position."
12:14:08 <ais523> I like the way that this rule not only exists, but is actually mentioned in an introductory primer on Wikipedia
12:15:47 <ais523> oh hmm, it seems that instead of swapping out clubs, the players have specific disks for specific sorts of throw
12:17:58 <ais523> now I'm wondering what it was that that spambot collected
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12:41:10 <J_Arcane2> Where I went to college we had a frisbee golf course in the woods around the library.
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13:02:38 <Melvar> < fizzie> scarf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-Bahn#D.C3.BCsseldorf_Airport <- this Düsseldorf airport one, so the hanging-from-the-rail style. – I live in Wuppertal, where we have such a train system as public transportation, operating since 1901.
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13:28:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DorthyBraswell * New user account
13:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:DorthyBraswell]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
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13:38:42 <zemhill> david_werecat.pheonix: points 7.38, score 27.77, rank 9/47 (--)
13:43:47 <boily> huh, a bfjoust entry without the person having had entered the code first here?
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13:54:17 <mroman_> boily: websubmission probably
13:54:28 <mroman_> to reduce channel bandwidth you can submit from outside
13:54:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flow chart]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40576&oldid=40573 * Tastyfish * (+129)
14:04:04 <AndoDaan> mroman_,: is there a shorter way to get "\n" on the stack in burlesque?
14:05:25 <mroman_> for char just use ' followed by a newline
14:05:36 <mroman_> for string just do " followed by a newline followed by "
14:05:47 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/ar8wGWsG <- like that
14:06:08 <AndoDaan> you know, i never thought of using newlines in my burlesque code, i'm dumb
14:07:46 <mroman_> the only thing a string can't contain is " :)
14:08:04 <mroman_> but other than that you can embed any character directly without using escape sequences
14:46:35 <myname> how well does blsq handle infinite lists?
14:51:08 <Taneb> Is there a way, in a single Python file, with no knowledge of libraries installed other than the standard library, I can do calculation on a GPU?
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15:16:50 <Bike> "no knowledge"?
15:23:23 <J_Arcane2> https://searchcode.com/?q=if%28version%2Cstartswith%28%22windows+9%22
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15:51:18 <lambdabot> CYUL 041538Z 15018G25KT 2 1/2SM RA BR BKN006 OVC028 14/12 A2958 RMK SF6SC2 SLP017 DENSITY ALT 300FT
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16:15:39 <J_Arcane2> Huh. Haskell is #12 in the new Gartner index: http://blogs.gartner.com/mark_driver/2014/10/02/gartner-programming-language-index-for-2014/
16:22:32 <boily> what does the Gartner measure? is it similar to TIOBE?
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16:24:32 <J_Arcane2> Corporate client feedback and use, apparently, as well as public repos and certain popular web sources like stackoverflow.
16:26:33 <boily> twelve is a nice spot, then. successful while avoiding success.
16:28:50 <J_Arcane2> :D I was just surprised that it would score so high on a corporate-weighted index: I know Clojure's seen some inroads by piggybacking on the needs of Java programmers desperate to program in anything but Java.
16:41:28 <boily> the language is nice. it has some built-in idiosyncracies, but otherwise it's quite fine.
16:41:54 <boily> it's all the surrounding enterprisiness and ecosystem and overly-dramatic lasagna code I can't stand.
16:44:19 <J_Arcane2> It's weird. Back in the day I was curious about Java as a language, but put off by awful performance. Now Java is fast, but the way it's coded makes my brain hurt.
16:45:13 <J_Arcane2> But well, comnig next fall I have to choose between two apprenticeships, one of which is a CS diploma course with a lot of 'cloud' and 'data scaling' buzzwords in it, and the other of which is Java EE ...
16:46:13 <J_Arcane2> LordCreepity: Code that is so unnecessarily layered and refactored that finding any thing specific in it requires better-than-Google search algorithms, let alone debugging anything.
16:47:54 <J_Arcane2> LordCreepity: The archetype parody: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
16:48:59 <boily> nothing surprising there. code has this natural tendency to laminally degenerate. it's when you suddenly find what you were searching for 10-layers deep in the class hierarchy, nested between arbitrary Abstract and Generic Factory Adapters that you remember that as a responsible adult it's a good thing you're not always keeping a fire axe within reach.
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16:49:47 <boily> laundry done, time for a nap...
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17:15:40 <int-e> LordCreepity: please don't tell me you didn't wear any protection while approaching that code
17:16:41 <int-e> is fungot any good ad decontamination?
17:16:41 <fungot> int-e: ( ( we didn't know how bad it was based on a true life story or something yeah
17:18:08 <int-e> what about your brain?
17:18:40 <int-e> fungot, could you fetch the pills, please?
17:18:40 <fungot> int-e: ( ( mm)) there's an imbalance now um i live in kansas
17:19:37 <int-e> aww, too bad that oerjan isn't here to marvel at the balanced parentheses right next to the term "imbalance".
17:19:51 <int-e> fungot outdid itself there
17:19:51 <fungot> int-e: so it's a big fnord person so i enjoy it and and i think my first attempt at it somehow evaporated into thin air i was a kid
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17:28:44 <fizzie> fungot: When were you a kid?
17:28:44 <fungot> fizzie: because if if if you have fnord so i've only this is my
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17:29:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher* fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:30:07 <fizzie> fungot: What are you even talking about?
17:30:08 <fungot> fizzie: oh my first time i saw something like odd on the street market whatever
17:30:45 <int-e> I cherish fungot's coherent moments, they are so rare.
17:30:45 <fungot> int-e: it just really sigh improves your perception of things so noise noise
17:31:03 <int-e> err, did that count? it almost made sense..
17:31:47 <fizzie> Some styles make them happen more often than others.
17:32:05 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:32:06 <fizzie> fungot: Please give an analysis of the current economic climate, please.
17:32:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the commission does not have the support, not only by women, but men, who get to fill the jobs available or by giving them training, recognized in terms of balance between the interests of protection against noise. aware of the consequences of the implementation of the principle of enhanced cooperation. all these proposals should be turned into practical action, i.e. the handicap of r
17:32:49 <int-e> well done, answered like a true politician
17:32:58 <fizzie> fungot: What are the consequences of the principle of enhanced coöperation?
17:32:59 <fungot> fizzie: i wish to make three comments at the conclusion of this agreement, they are politicians and, not least towards parliament, because we have implemented a study of the various stages of the production refunds for sugar for european countries from which these desperate people flee. perhaps then, we must respond to the questions that we have today opened a smoking zone behind the hemicycle, i met a group called ' september
17:33:11 <int-e> (in that by the end of the statement, nothing was said but the question is forgotten)
17:33:34 <fizzie> That last one went to a weird place.
17:33:59 <fizzie> But I like the "sugar for european countries from which these desperate people flee" part.
17:34:25 <int-e> `addquote fungot we have today opened a smoking zone behind the hemicycle
17:34:26 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i would say to mrs flemming that the entire policy for the eu, that we can take an overall view of the forthcoming negotiating round of the wto are resumed next year, which would include legislation and information to parliament.
17:34:27 <HackEgo> 1222) fungot we have today opened a smoking zone behind the hemicycle
17:35:21 <HackEgo> 1221) <ais523> GeekDude: there's not much point in addquoting someone doing an addquote
17:35:24 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e '1222s/fungot/<fungot>/'
17:35:25 <fungot> fizzie: mr rocard has succeeded in presenting an extremely strong case and managed to table sound amendments. i do not wish to speak at the beginning of the next such situation, and that it must not be increased as it already costs us a bit with the united states
17:35:29 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e '1222s/fungot/<fungot>/' quotes
17:35:29 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, there are still critics of the eu common position on the first question, demilitarisation, i can only suggest that you reconsider the simplified labelling system. this is why the community should be used to the system would gain the satisfaction that the rapporteur, mrs montfort, has done.
17:36:24 <fizzie> In retrospect, /<&>/ would've been shorter.
17:36:53 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
17:37:01 <fizzie> That's not preprocessed very well.
17:37:08 <int-e> fungot: is the enron style as evasive as the euparl one?
17:37:09 <fungot> int-e: " we charge all and the address for the following will also attend: power demand." gshebleiastate.edu on 10/ 10 to 4 and people want you to know any major complications of a new and ever increasing theft of supplies of various) target accounts that had we, the decision on the number of questions of the over the top.
17:37:48 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:40:31 <fizzie> I'm a bit unclear as to how reconsidering the simplified labelling system will help in matters related to demilitarisation.
17:41:59 <b_jonas> fungot, how many candles do you have on your cake?
17:42:00 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i am very grateful to the commission to say that the matter has been raised as an issue to be raised by the future dutch presidency plans to organise a debate in the convention and that the various parties, instead of being used for maritime transport and fisheries.
17:42:16 <myname> i do think fungot is pretty amazing for a bot written in befunge
17:42:18 <fungot> myname: mr president, a civilised society. when you made the statement and hope we will achieve nothing more than a century old and which has modified their traditional roles. the information in order to conceal our weaknesses. i will say that the external actions of the european ombudsman again, a woman who has spent hours of frustration at airports, which has been one of the spouses to bear all the expenses incurred in financ
17:43:31 <int-e> hah. a woman who has spent hours of frustration at airports
17:43:39 <int-e> I can relate to that
17:44:31 <fizzie> Original source comment: "Each one of us who has spent hours of frustration at airports, which has definitely been the case this winter, and in traffic chaos on the roads, which has also been the case, know just how imperative it is to create an efficient rail system linking the whole of Europe."
17:44:36 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
17:45:23 <fizzie> And for the earlier half: "What happens to a woman who has spent twenty years with a husband who then leaves her?"
17:45:38 <int-e> That is marginally more coherent than what fungot made of it. :)
17:45:38 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i thank mr prodi for the fact that the netherlands, have very effective environmentally friendly treatments which make an environmental impact assessment. we can see, mr president, this is, of course, one of which is " gross national product and support for these products. amendment no 3
17:46:51 <myname> i wonder what'll happen if we'd feed it with law texts
17:47:55 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
17:48:10 <int-e> fungot, say something funny, please?
17:48:10 <fungot> int-e: nw i has cum mre frm urself thn frm othrs hav done
17:48:36 <fungot> int-e: cal me ra hun .tm sunao? gud morning andrew. plz giv me one color?
17:49:02 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:49:10 <int-e> That sms style hurts so much.
17:50:09 <fizzie> It's very true to life.
17:53:06 <myname> .oO( should i make an esolang that looks like sms? )
17:56:01 <elliott_> "nw i has cum mre frm urself thn frm othrs hav done" is scarily close to coherency
17:56:27 -!- erdic has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:57:46 -!- erdic has joined.
18:01:34 <J_Arcane2> myname: well, there's already the cheeseburger lang, knock out a few more vowels and it wouldn't be far off.
18:02:26 <myname> J_Arcane2: the question is: does it annoy int-e?
18:03:05 <J_Arcane2> personally, I think a snake-based lang would be more interesting. ;)
18:03:28 -!- G33kDude has changed nick to GeekDude.
18:07:42 <J_Arcane2> Hmm. Well, what if snake sections stored values?
18:13:07 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)).
18:17:58 <Jafet> Define snake on a fractal tiling
18:31:03 <zemhill> david_werecat.pheonix: points 8.60, score 29.35, rank 7/47 (+2)
18:32:53 <zemhill> david_werecat.pheonix: points 8.69, score 29.49, rank 7/47 (--)
18:34:50 <mroman_> !blsq 1R@{?i}m[{10.>}f[10.+
18:34:50 <blsqbot> {11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20}
18:35:11 <mroman_> > take 10 . filter (> 10) . map succ $ [1..]
18:35:29 <myname> mroman_: do you have a highlight on blsq?
18:35:42 <mroman_> myname: It's written in Haskell, so it inherited a lot of laziness.
18:35:54 <blsqbot> {144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1}
18:36:13 <mroman_> or what else do you mean by highlight
18:38:36 <Bike> something to ping you when someone says "blsq"
18:41:18 <mroman_> !blsq "ABC\nCBA\nBCA"ln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[
18:41:41 <mroman_> That's still my favorite Burlesque program though :)
18:41:51 <mroman_> !blsq "ABC\nCBA\nBCA\nACC"ln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[
18:42:18 <mroman_> !blsq "ABC\nCBA\n"ln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[
18:42:33 <blsqbot> {"" "A" "B" "AB" "C" "AC" "BC" "ABC"}
18:42:36 <blsqbot> {"ABC" "BAC" "CBA" "BCA" "CAB" "ACB"}
18:42:41 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 9):
18:42:42 <blsqbot> "ABC\nBAC\nCBA\nBCA\nCAB\nACB"
18:42:51 <mroman_> !blsq "ABC"r@[-unln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[
18:43:10 <mroman_> ln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[ given a set of permutations returns the missing permutations
18:43:22 <mroman_> that is, if and only if exactly one permutation is missing
18:43:59 <myname> how the hell can you memorize that stuff
18:45:39 <mroman_> lines . map explode . transpose . map sort . map frequencies . map min . ungroup . swappop . concat
18:45:53 <mroman_> myname: I just know them :)
18:46:01 <mroman_> I mean... I wrote the interpreter and the Documentation
18:46:05 <mroman_> so that helped a lot in learning them
18:46:16 <mroman_> also I golf frequently in it. That' helps memorizing it too
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18:47:34 <mroman_> !blsq 1 2 3 "mark" 4 5 6 7CL{"mark"!=}TW[-
18:47:39 <mroman_> !blsq 1 2 3 "mark" 4 5 6 7CL{"mark"!=}TW
18:48:37 <mroman_> myname: Also I have nothing better to do than working on burlesque
18:49:52 <mroman_> also the commands kinda give a hint to what they do
18:50:05 <mroman_> TW is obviously some sort of TakeWhile
18:50:41 <mroman_> [ is the beginning of the list
18:50:42 <j-bot> mroman_: is (the beginning of the list)
18:50:49 <j-bot> mroman_: |value error: hu
18:51:05 <j-bot> mroman_: 4 6 8 6 5
18:51:05 <j-bot> mroman_: 8 6 6 6 9
18:51:05 <j-bot> mroman_: 3 2 3 1 9
18:51:05 <j-bot> mroman_: 2 7 0 9 5
18:51:05 <j-bot> mroman_: 7 7 9 7 4
18:51:12 <j-bot> mroman_: 4 6 8 6 5 8 6 6 6 9 3 2 3 1 9 2 7 0 9 5 7 7 9 7 4 8 7 4 2 1 1 0 4 3 9 3 2 7 4 4 0 3 7 5 9 6 3 2 8 2
18:51:13 <j-bot> mroman_: 0 3 5 4 0 0 3 1 5 0 4 0 2 9 2 4 0 0 7 7 5 7 3 1 6 3 1 5 8 9 8 5 3 9 9 8 9 5 1 1 0 4 1 7 3 2 3 4 0 4
18:51:13 <j-bot> mroman_: 9 4 9 5 9 0 1 9 7 3 5 2 4 8 1 5 6 5 9 5 0 1 8 4 1 5 5 9 1 9 6 6 0 5 5 5 7 2 4 6 0 0 8 2 2 5 1 9 7 8
18:51:13 <j-bot> mroman_: 9 4 9 9 1 2 2 0 7 1 7 0 0 1 5 8 0 6 5 5 8 8 2 4 9 9 6 6 5 6 6 4 9 0 0 3 1 3 5 6 8 6 6 8 4 0 0 4 3 4
18:51:13 <j-bot> mroman_: 7 5 0 2 8 8 3 6 4 4 4 4 0 7 1 2 2 7 2 6 1 2 9 0 3 3 2 2 9 6 1 7 5 0 7 3 9 3 9 2 5 8 2 9 8 9 5 9 8 7
18:51:29 <HackEgo> cat: botprefixes: No such file or directory
18:52:45 <mroman_> but mostly it's still because I have nothing better to do than working on burlesque
18:53:10 <mroman_> creating esolang's gotten kinda boring
18:53:29 <mroman_> "oh great. another bf derivative." "oh great. another queue thingy" "oh great. another stack based thingy"
18:53:39 <mroman_> "oh great. another thingy with string replacements"
18:54:48 <mroman_> I'm out of new freaky ideas
18:56:20 <J_Arcane2> That's why I went for faux-vintage instead.
18:56:32 <J_Arcane2> I'm more a retrocomputing guy anyway.
18:56:59 <Bike> i only use computers built on BJTs, the data are smoother that way
18:57:39 <mroman_> I should do some z80 sometime
18:57:54 <J_Arcane2> myname: ie. when I wrote an esolang, I was mostly interested in writing something that would feel accurately awful to a certain point in time.
18:59:59 <zzo38> How much do you know z80 stuff? Do you know 6502 too? I do 6502
19:00:55 <mroman_> I don't know anything about z80 so far
19:01:01 <mroman_> but you can golf in it on anagol
19:01:08 <mroman_> so that's sort of a motivation to learn it
19:01:10 <zzo38> mroman_: Yes, I know that already
19:01:39 <zzo38> (Also, there is the NMOS 6502 and CMOS 6502, which have differences. I happen to like the NMOS 6502 instruction set, but it could probably be implemented in CMOS as well)
19:01:41 <mroman_> but all the info links for z80 on anagol are 404 or dead
19:02:39 <mroman_> wp says 6502 has lots of undocumented opcodes
19:02:40 -!- torchwood33 has joined.
19:02:53 <mroman_> why the hell would you not document opcodes for your processor if you're going to sell it
19:02:57 <zzo38> Yes, there are a lot, and I have used many of the stable ones
19:03:14 <zzo38> mroman_: They were unintended, and are also NMOS only
19:03:56 <zzo38> For example, LAX loads data into both the A and X registers. SAX stores the bitwise AND of the A and X registers.
19:05:25 -!- torchwood33 has left.
19:05:36 <zzo38> DCP is "decrement and compare". ANC is like AND immediate but also copies the high bit of the result into the carry flag. AXS and ARR are a bit strange.
19:06:24 <pikhq> mroman_: To elaborate on zzo38's explanation: the undocumented opcodes were just consequences of how the opcode decode circuitry worked. With unintended bit patterns they just activated random parts of the CPU.
19:06:40 <pikhq> Which happened to do things that were a bit weird but useful.
19:07:00 <zzo38> Some are unstable though, and should not be used.
19:07:18 <mroman_> they don't work all the time?
19:07:32 <pikhq> As you might expect from "opcode decode circuitry triggering parts of the CPU with no design behind it".
19:07:46 <pikhq> mroman_: Or can get the CPU into odd states.
19:07:51 <zzo38> Yes, they don't work all the time, and/or can cause the CPU to stop sometimes or all of the time.
19:08:13 <mroman_> http://www.6502.org/source/games/uchess/uchess.htm <- impressing
19:08:44 <zzo38> (Many unofficial opcodes just stop the CPU until it is reset; not even IRQ and NMI will work until it is reset.)
19:10:09 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/null-edit-detector&action=history
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19:20:45 <mroman_> there's an A and an X register
19:21:26 <fizzie> Don't forget the P and the S and the PC.
19:21:41 <b_jonas> P? is that the flags/condition code?
19:21:50 <b_jonas> I thought that was called F
19:21:56 <mroman_> not unusual for Microprocessors to implicitly use accumulator a lot
19:22:17 <fizzie> b_jonas: I don't know how it's called in the manual, I was just going from the naming of the PLP/PHP instructions.
19:22:32 <coppro> the only correct thing to do with the accumulator is to increment it
19:22:35 <b_jonas> I call it F only because of z80 probably
19:22:59 <b_jonas> but z80 has a very different set of flags and use for that register
19:23:17 <b_jonas> that's where 8086 has inherited it
19:24:37 <fizzie> Current Intel manuals call it EFLAGS/RFLAGS.
19:25:09 <b_jonas> but that's still the same as z80's flags register
19:25:17 <b_jonas> only now it has a super useful overflow flag
19:25:29 <fizzie> Well, it's the same as the Intel 8080 flag register.
19:25:47 <fizzie> Z80 is intentionally 8080-ish.
19:26:11 <fizzie> Having been designed by an ex-Intel employee who worked on the 8080.
19:26:27 <mroman_> but 8086 doesn't give you direct access to the flags register
19:26:37 <b_jonas> and 8086 is intentionally z80-ish, and x86_32 is intentionally 8086ish, and x86_64 is intentionally x86_32-ish
19:26:52 <b_jonas> 8086 still has pushf and popf instructions
19:27:03 <mroman_> but it's not an "adressable" register
19:27:09 <b_jonas> also the obsolate SAHF and SALF
19:27:28 <b_jonas> why would it have to be "addressable"? it has fixed bits and stuff
19:27:28 <mroman_> which means you need opcodes for that
19:27:45 <mroman_> b_jonas: You can't set/clear or read flags nicely
19:28:04 <mroman_> you need extra instructions
19:28:30 <b_jonas> sure, but no cpu has AND F, 011b, right
19:28:45 <b_jonas> oh wait, maybe some of ARM does
19:28:56 <int-e> @tell oerjan here's another 22 characters PATH, slightly modifying your submission: ``cd`c``@k````?:ird`|c
19:30:14 <b_jonas> mroman_: were you thinking of ARM or what?
19:31:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: in z80, the eight addressable registers are A, B, C, D, E, L, H, and [LH] (replacable with [IX] and [IY] with a prefix) I think
19:31:35 <b_jonas> you can't access the flags register directly
19:36:48 <fizzie> I've always seen it denoted (hl).
19:37:43 <fizzie> And the 16-bit load/arithmetic groups have two-bit encodings for the "registers" bc, de, hl and sp.
19:38:06 <b_jonas> I never really programmed z80, I'm only interested because it explains so many things about x86
19:38:27 <fizzie> Yes. I have the manual right here.
19:39:53 <fizzie> IIRC, you can also do quite a lot to "IXL"/"IXH" and "IYL"/"IYH" in an undocumented way by using 8-bit instructions that access H/L but prefixing the opcode prefix that the usual IX/IY instructions use. (Another unintended-but-logical consequence of opcode decoding circuitry design.)
19:40:27 <b_jonas> how does that work? does it use the high or the low byte of IX?
19:40:59 <fizzie> If you access H, it'll use the high byte of IX, and if you access L, it'll use the low byte of IX.
19:41:04 <zzo38> coppro: In 6502, incrementing is one of the few things that the accumulator does not do. (You can SEC and ADC #0, but there is no "increment accumulator" instruction.)
19:41:07 <b_jonas> but you can't do that on x86
19:41:32 <fizzie> There's no IX/IY on x86, at least ones that'd work like that.
19:41:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think the SI and DI are the IX and IY on the x86, in some order
19:42:04 <fizzie> Not really, since they have numbers in the GPR encodings.
19:42:10 <b_jonas> and the BX of x86 is the LH of z80
19:42:30 <b_jonas> but the point about x86 was that any single z80 instruction can be mapped to a single x86 instruction
19:42:33 <fizzie> On Z80, you take something lke "LD HL, nn" and add a prefix byte to make it "LD IX, nn"/"LD IY, nn".
19:42:56 <fizzie> So it makes sense that the prefix bytes just pretty much tells the processor to "instead of HL, pipe in IX/IY".
19:43:04 <b_jonas> that's why x86 has some of the crazier instructions like LAHF
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19:44:04 <fizzie> So what's the x86 equivalent to LD A, R? :)
19:44:06 <b_jonas> and that works for both 16 bit access of HL and for indirect access
19:44:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: R? what's R? but the A register is equivalent to AL on x86
19:44:37 <fizzie> R is the memory refresh register.
19:44:44 <fizzie> Also the "random number if you're really lazy" register.
19:45:15 <b_jonas> is there even such an instruction?
19:45:23 <fizzie> Not on x86, but yes on Z80.
19:45:38 <fizzie> There's a memory refresh counter, it's seven lowest bits are automatically incremented after each instruction fetch.
19:45:41 <b_jonas> I mean, z80 can't have undocumented instructions, can it? all of the 256 instructions in its table are full, right?
19:45:59 <fizzie> "LD A, R" is not undocumented.
19:46:04 <fizzie> But I don't think the table is full either.
19:46:09 <fizzie> At least the tables with the prefix bytes.
19:46:15 <fizzie> The single-byte opcode table might be.
19:46:19 <b_jonas> the one with prefix bytes isn't, yes
19:46:39 <b_jonas> it's the single-byte opcode table that's full, except maybe for one instruction that's in the place of LD [HL], [HL]
19:47:41 <fizzie> "The Z80 CPU contains a memory refresh counter, enabling dynamic memories to be used with the same ease as static memories. Seven bits of this 8-bit register are automatically incremented after each instruction fetch. The eighth bit remains as programmed, resulting from an LD R, A instruction. The data in the refresh counter is sent out on the lower portion of the address bus along with a ...
19:47:47 <fizzie> ... refresh control signal while the CPU is decoding and executing the fetched instruction."
19:48:02 <fizzie> The idea being that if you have some DRAM that needs a refresh signal, you don't have to add any hardware for it, you can get it out of the CPU for free.
19:49:01 <fizzie> As a result, you can kinda-sorta use R for random numbers, if you call it at long-enough, unpredictable intervals.
19:49:31 <fizzie> The best TI-86 Befunge interpreter there is uses R to implement its ?, which makes the hunt-the-wumpus game sometimes fail in its maze-building many times in a row.
19:50:06 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure if it's because of the low-quality ? or just a peculiarity of the game.
19:51:31 <b_jonas> well, I don't think x86 has that
19:51:39 <b_jonas> at least I haven't heared of such a thing
19:51:43 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA!
19:53:30 <fizzie> The Z80 single-byte main instruction table is indeed full of documented instructions.
19:53:47 <fizzie> The one that'd be "ld (hl), (hl)" logically is the "halt" instruction.
19:54:23 <b_jonas> and which instructions are in the shifted table? the 16 bit ones and the shift/rotates?
19:55:52 <fizzie> There's the "bit instructions" table with the CB prefix; that's shifts, rotates and set-bit instructions, and it's also entirely full except for the "shift left, logical" slot, which contains the undocumented "SLL"/"SL1" instruction that shifts left but fills with 1 instead of 0.
19:56:25 <fizzie> And there's the "extended instructions" (ED prefix) table, which is a lot less full.
19:56:37 <b_jonas> nor that there were two shifts
19:57:13 <b_jonas> wait, how did they fill the shift/rotate table?
19:57:14 <fizzie> There's also the IX/IY prefixes (DD. FD) and the combined DDCB, FDCB for bit instructions involving IX/IY.
19:57:29 <fizzie> Most of it is full of BIT/RES/SET instructions with different immediates.
19:57:35 <fizzie> It takes 8 opcodes to cover 0..7.
19:58:07 <b_jonas> so that leaves 64, which is 8 kinds of shift times 8 registers?
19:58:35 <fizzie> Yes. rlc, rrc, rl, rr, sla, sra, srl and the "sll".
19:59:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: are those all count 1 only?
19:59:16 <b_jonas> or are there variable count shifts?
19:59:25 <b_jonas> were they immediate counts?
19:59:32 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think it can shift more than by 1.
19:59:40 <fizzie> Unless you count the rather funny RLD/RRD instructions.
19:59:52 <fizzie> Which rotate a group of three nybbles.
20:00:17 <fizzie> The low nybble of A, and the two nybbles at the byte in memory pointed by hl.
20:00:54 <b_jonas> I can understand when a cpu doesn't want to implement variable shifts, but what's the point of an sla instruction that takes two bytes? can't you just add instead? I don't understand why the 6503 has a left shift either, even if it's a one byte encoding there.
20:01:08 <b_jonas> is left shift so important to worth an instruction in such small instruction sets?
20:01:25 <fizzie> You can't "add (hl), (hl)", at least.
20:02:11 <b_jonas> can't you at least LD A, (HL); ADD A, (HL), LD (HL), A?
20:02:17 <b_jonas> I know that's three bytes but still
20:02:31 <b_jonas> or is left shift so important if you don't have a multiply instruction?
20:03:53 <fizzie> Oh, you can't add to anything else than the accumulator, too, of course. So to replace the shift you'd need something like those three instructions even for "SLA r".
20:04:38 <fizzie> Except for "SLA A", which is in fact slower than "ADD A, A".
20:04:39 <b_jonas> now I'll have to find a good z80 documentation, or find my own notes
20:05:14 <fizzie> I've always just used the official User Manual.
20:05:21 <fizzie> The PDF has a proper index and all.
20:05:27 <fizzie> http://www.zilog.com/manage_directlink.php?filepath=docs/z80/um0080
20:06:02 <fizzie> Though it does have a couple of typos in the instruction encodings, and it doesn't have a good opcode-ordered table.
20:06:10 <fizzie> See http://clrhome.org/table/ for the latter.
20:06:45 <fizzie> I used to have a paper copy of the manual too, but I gave it away as a gift, if I recall correctly.
20:07:20 <b_jonas> there's a separate nop instruction encoded as 00? isn't ld b,b supposed to be doing that?
20:08:54 <fizzie> I don't see any obvious differences between "ld b,b", "ld c,c", ..., "ld a,a" and the official "nop".
20:09:10 <fizzie> They all take the same amount of time, too.
20:09:32 <b_jonas> nop instructions are useful, and I like them
20:09:40 <b_jonas> but I don't see why there's an extra if ld b,b already works
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20:10:48 <fizzie> The table I linked to has the undocumented-but-"well-known" instructions marked in red.
20:11:51 -!- J_Arcane2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de).
20:11:56 <fizzie> You can "inc ixl" or so on, which might be useful if you wanted, say, a 256-byte circular buffer that's 256-byte aligned.
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20:40:51 <fizzie> Look at Wolfram Research being "hip" and "with it": https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20141004-ad.png
20:42:03 <J_Arcane> a hah aha hah that would've been so cool in 2003 ...
20:42:29 <fizzie> I assume it's "ironic" now.
20:42:33 <elliott_> all your base are belong to us. mathematica now with base conversion support
20:44:35 <fizzie> There's no AYBABTU joke if I do "?BaseForm" in Mathematica 10.0.
20:44:53 <fizzie> But maybe they've added that in 10.0.1, our systems don't seem updated yet.
20:45:00 <Bicyclidine> i think i've literally never seen that initialism ever
20:54:51 <boily> wikipédia says it's common. maybe it's another fnord planted by our Evil Fungottian Overlords?
20:55:32 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, commissioner, it would seem that the office is part of a political prisoner to die on hunger strike in protest against the government's crackdown on the group.
20:56:47 <b_jonas> fungot, do you use the undocumented opcodes of z80? how about the R (memory refresh) register?
20:56:48 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, my aim is to create a new world order, first envisaged at the moment and its fnord successor to a fundamental system change for the small business has got over the start-up problem and shown some success in this work: the defence of human rights, democratic principles and human rights, and that the ecu 1 billion decrease in the number of those who have made a proposal concerning a special social vat on
20:57:23 <fizzie> fungot: You're not supposed to just come out and *say* you're going to create a new world order.
20:57:23 <fungot> fizzie: i think that is the only company that we have dealt with there has been much talk in the council.
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21:38:42 <fizzie> It's TOO LATE for that, it's already sun-dae.
21:39:57 <newsham> sun dae is kim jong's wife?
21:42:58 <quintopia> fizzie: it may be sun-dae in the White City, but here in the land of the free, there's all of saturdy night to go!
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21:53:51 <oerjan> <int-e> aww, too bad that oerjan isn't here to marvel at the balanced parentheses right next to the term "imbalance". <-- by the powers of LOG i marvel
21:54:51 <lambdabot> int-e said 2h 25m 54s ago: here's another 22 characters PATH, slightly modifying your submission: ``cd`c``@k````?:ird`|c
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22:08:25 <b_jonas> whoa, what language is that in? it looks like unlambda
22:09:35 <b_jonas> um, but what does the colon do in unlambda? let me pull up a reference
22:09:54 <b_jonas> oh, that's a character quoted by the question mark
22:09:57 <b_jonas> for testing the last input
22:10:06 <b_jonas> unlambda has strange procedural input functions
22:10:23 <b_jonas> let me pull up a reference
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22:11:06 <oerjan> i sent an unlambda answer to http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?PATH , then int-e beat me.
22:11:10 <b_jonas> right, @ reads a character and then ?: tests it
22:11:17 <oerjan> and now he's even improved on my solution.
22:13:13 <oerjan> that problem seems to have a really canonical answer in haskell. all the solutions are minor variations, some are entirely identical.
22:13:51 <oerjan> (and the one i found but didn't bother to submit is identical to int-e's.)
22:14:03 <oerjan> presumably because we both prefer one-liners.
22:14:45 <b_jonas> it's funny how much quieter the city is during the night compared to the day
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01:37:05 <ais523> what's snprintf's behaviour on buffer overflow?
01:37:24 <ais523> specifically, does it use the last remaining character for a NUL. or is it like strncat?
01:39:27 <ais523> I couldn't figure it out from the docs
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01:46:04 <coppro> ais523: the docs are quite clear
01:46:08 <coppro> if by docs you mean standard
01:46:28 <ais523> I was using the man page
01:46:36 <ais523> (was checking chasonr's pull request)
01:48:49 <oerjan> new golf, and _all_ the haskellers have 2 less chars than the obvious impl...
01:50:01 <zzo38> If you play Pokemon Card, what is most number of cards you have in your draw pile left over at the end of the game if your opponent has none (if you can remember)? Just now I ended up with forty cards and no side cards, while opponent has no more cards left and still has six side cards.
01:50:13 <zzo38> I think I haven't done more than forty, though.
01:50:28 <ais523> zzo38: are there any trainer cards that let you put cards back into your draw pile?
01:50:43 <ais523> or better, Pokémon Powers
01:50:47 <zzo38> Yes; MAINTENANCE and GAMBLER and RECYCLE and MR.FUJI are a few.
01:50:48 <ais523> or just attack effects
01:50:55 <zzo38> I don't know of any powers or attacks that do, though.
01:51:19 <zzo38> However, I didn't use any such cards this time, as it turns out.
01:51:48 <ais523> I think there's probably going to be a way to end up with 57 in the draw pile, 2 in play (your active Pokémon and one Energy), and one in hand (the Prize Card you drew as you won the game)
01:52:19 <oerjan> oh wait just one less char
01:52:29 <ais523> actually, if you win by decking, you don't need the Energy, although then you'd have a Prize Card (none in hand, though)
01:52:35 <ais523> so 57 because I miscounted first time
01:53:06 <ais523> anyway, going to get antilunch
01:53:09 <zzo38> Although I don't know if anyone has ever managed that
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01:53:38 <oerjan> interesting ['A'..'Z'] is longer than "POCKET", so it isn't obviously better to cheat.
01:53:46 <zzo38> (And it was my opponent's own fault for running out of cards)
01:55:15 <oerjan> for a language like sed the cheat is obviously better, though.
01:56:13 <oerjan> (basically you're supposed to remove the letters POCKET from each line, but there are no other upper-case chars)
01:58:03 <oerjan> and the obvious sed cheat is precisely the length everyone has on that
01:59:06 <shachaf> Do the programs only get tested against the listed sample inpust?
01:59:34 <oerjan> although ideally you should mark your answer if you do
02:00:34 <oerjan> it's remarkable how many haskell options get thrown out immediately because of the length of import statements.
02:00:59 <shachaf> lambdabot is a somewhat more interesting golf environment for that reason.
02:02:06 <oerjan> also, they are using ghc 7.4, which means you don't even have the (->) monad by default.
02:02:31 <oerjan> it's just 2 years ago or so?
02:03:55 <oerjan> i am not quite sure if 7.10 will include applicative syntax in the prelude, or just the class names
02:04:23 <oerjan> if it does, then 7.10 should be a _lot_ more golfable
02:04:36 <oerjan> shachaf: no, i mean simply that <*> <$> operators
02:04:52 <shachaf> Who knows? I've washed my hands of caring about Haskell.
02:05:01 <shachaf> People are messing it up. It'll be getting steadily worse forever.
02:05:25 <oerjan> um these are supposed to be improvements.
02:05:51 <oerjan> also, you sound like trolling.
02:07:17 <oerjan> i've told you a million times not to do that.
02:08:29 <shachaf> "exec is denied" means you can't use the system call?
02:09:10 <oerjan> people still manage in bash
02:10:25 <oerjan> although maybe that's excluded, because that length everyone has is the same as for tr -d A-Z
02:10:26 <shachaf> OK, 38 characters for POCKET is easy enough. I wonder if everyone's solution cheats.
02:10:57 <zzo38> "Exec is denied" means there is a limit to number of executing external programs; it doesn't apply for shell scripts though
02:11:22 <zzo38> (And usually the limit is just enough to get the interpreter to start, although sometimes there is a bit more)
02:11:45 <zzo38> The source-codes are available so that you can see how it is working.
02:12:02 <oerjan> zzo38: this one isn't closed yet
02:12:20 <zzo38> No, I mean the source-codes for the service
02:12:40 <shachaf> Is there a way to submit a program for testing without submitting it for use?
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02:13:01 <zzo38> shachaf: There is a testing form
02:14:12 <shachaf> Oh, wait, I can make my solution non-cheating easily enough.
02:21:00 <zzo38> Looking at source-codes, it look like you can use the "broken keyboard" scoring by making the problem name ending with " broken keyboard".
02:24:07 <shachaf> Wait, it's still cheating.
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02:42:00 <ais523> does Haskell have an equivalent to OCaml's (|>) by default?
02:42:13 <ais523> hmm, that's a different |>
02:42:29 <shachaf> Apparently it got into base for the next version of GHC.
02:42:47 <ais523> I find it pretty useful for writing things in an order I can actually read
02:42:57 <oerjan> now i think shachaf is just being exaggerating again
02:43:04 <ais523> I find I have to read Haskell right to left
02:43:12 <oerjan> although they could have had a better naming scheme
02:43:19 <ais523> basically I read in the order a language would evaluate, if it were strict
02:43:21 <shachaf> I would be more inclined to accept (&) if there was a reversed composition operator.
02:44:10 <shachaf> People write (x & h & g & f) even though they wouldn't write (f $ g $ h $ x)
02:44:25 <shachaf> If anything & would be a good name for reversed composition.
02:44:41 <ais523> shachaf: is (f . g . h) more idiomatic for that?
02:45:02 <shachaf> Yes, that. Or f . g . h $ x
02:45:08 <ais523> in OCaml, the equivalent of f $ g $ h $ x is definitely more idiomatic
02:45:08 <shachaf> If nothing else then because it can be eta-reduced.
02:45:51 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm only moderately exaggerating.
02:46:22 <shachaf> I got so annoyed about (&) that I left almost all the Haskell channels I was in.
02:46:37 <shachaf> (but it was only a proximate cause)
02:52:34 <ais523> you were planning to leave anyway, but (&) was what helped you make up your mind?
02:52:42 <ais523> offtopic conversation's like that for me in some channels
02:53:25 <shachaf> Oh, come on, you started this one.
02:55:21 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not complaining about this one
02:55:30 <ais523> also I'm not even sure it's offtopic
02:56:26 <ais523> #esoteric hasn't been obnoxiously offtopic for a while
02:56:31 <ais523> and even talks about esolangs sometimes
02:57:50 <shachaf> Is Rice's theorem about the connectedness of some topological space? If so, which one?
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03:01:54 <zzo38> Is it possible in Linux to use escape codes to access the number of columns of the screen?
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03:03:33 <oerjan> rice's theorem can never be off topic here hth
03:04:13 <ais523> zzo38: the method you're "meant" to use is an ioctl; however, I think it might be possible to move the cursor to the bottom-right, then ask for the cursor position
03:05:01 <ais523> if nothing else, you could move the cursor to the top left, ask for the position; move one column to the right, ask again; repeat until the cursor doesn't move any more
03:05:26 * shachaf wonders what happens when you have a scrolling region set.
03:05:27 <zzo38> I suppose then you have to disable line wrapping mode
03:05:38 <shachaf> Until just now I completely forgot about scrolling regions.
03:06:23 <ais523> zzo38: well if the cursor position goes back to 1, it probably wrapped
03:06:28 <zzo38> Wikipedia says the codes CSI 5i and CSI 4i are used to turn on and off the printer. How commonly is this implemented?
03:06:39 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I could do that too
03:06:43 <ais523> in general, though, terminals are quite inconsistent: http://nethack4.org/blog/portable-terminal-codes.html
03:06:51 <ais523> wrt the printer, I think most terminals ignore it, some log to a file
03:33:29 <Sgeo> [05:16:38] <Gloria> But there's at least one documented case of an intentional trap.
03:33:29 <Sgeo> [05:16:40] <Gloria> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/null-edit-detector
03:33:32 <Sgeo> I'm documented!
03:34:58 <ais523> Sgeo: why do you have a trap for null edits? just because you can, or is there a better reason?
03:35:34 <Sgeo> I made it over 8 years ago
03:39:50 <Sgeo> https://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23mediawiki/20140526.txt
03:40:01 <Sgeo> I am very curious how the unintentional stuff came into existence
03:42:11 <ais523> huh, #mediawiki dislike Wikia too, interesting
03:53:28 <zzo38> If local echo is on will it print the local echo too if CSI 5i is activated?
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03:58:41 <Sgeo> The fact that entry text != result text kind of creeps me out
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05:26:48 <int-e> Oh, Prelude exports the scan* functions ... useful, but somehow I wasn't aware of that.
05:27:43 <HackEgo> 895) <shachaf> Taneb: STOP TRYING TO GET LENS INTO EVERYTHING <shachaf> Bike: You should use lens! <Taneb> NEVER <Bike> shachaf: i'm getting mixed messages here \ 984) <shachaf> Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. <Bike> oh god <Bike> fiora help somebody help <Bike> anybody \ 1186) <oerjan> in that thread Taneb admits to his sins
05:27:58 <HackEgo> 1186) <oerjan> in that thread Taneb admits to his sins. i know this because that comment showed up in my friends list <Taneb> oerjan, today I pushed 217 lines of documentation into lens [...] <edwardk> Say 10 Hail Marys and make 3 more lens commits and your sins shall be forgiven.
05:28:22 <ais523> why is being scared of lens a #esoteric meme?
05:28:25 <Bike> why am i in two different quotes about some library i've never used
05:28:28 <HackEgo> 217) <ineiros> HELLWORLD! <fizzie> It's like HELLO WORLD, except not *quite*. <ineiros> There is more agony.
05:28:43 <Bike> ais523: because whenever people talk about it they sound like spivak and write about as clearly
05:28:50 <int-e> ais523: because lens is not idiomatic Haskell, it's its own language
05:28:55 <shachaf> Bike: Weren't you saying Spivak was supposed to be clear the other day?
05:29:03 <Bike> i'm not good at math
05:29:21 <shachaf> Bike: I,I http://math.mit.edu/~dspivak/teaching/sp13/
05:29:23 <ais523> isn't spivak just a few pronouns?
05:29:23 <Bike> oh it's just adiffeomorphism on the chu space of reverse topological dynamics
05:29:32 <Bike> ais523: he also wrote some math textbooks
05:29:41 <ais523> spivak the person, not the language
05:29:43 <int-e> I think I'm good at math, but lens scares me.
05:29:54 <Bike> it's actually the same person behind the language and the math
05:30:06 <shachaf> lens is a large library based on relatively few important ideas
05:30:51 <shachaf> A lot of it is boilerplate in a sense.
05:31:07 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/92d0f2626cc975a59a8c7457f79a3ce9/tumblr_nbnhwdTI7c1r7tprao1_1280.jpg
05:31:33 <shachaf> It's also very bad at abstractions for a few reasons -- the insides are all over the exposed interface.
05:31:44 <int-e> (Right, lens as a dependency is way too heavy-weight for my taste. I understand how it got there (edward takes implementing lenses for common libraries upon himself rather than coercing maintainers into providing lenses for their stuff), but it still seems wrong.)
05:32:34 <int-e> I also think that the basic lens type has been abstracted beyond recognition.
05:32:59 <shachaf> lens is a trade-off between a lot of different forces
05:33:23 <shachaf> A lot of the complexity is my fault. :-( But it was worse beforehand, really.
05:33:57 <int-e> and of course the sheer number of infix operators is intimidating.
05:34:35 <int-e> concepts, too. Ok, so there are lenses and prisms ... wth is a bazaar?
05:34:55 <shachaf> A Bazaar is a traversal applied to a structure.
05:35:20 <int-e> ...but I just wanted to access record fields elegantly...
05:35:22 <shachaf> Traversals are the central concept of lens. Or they were before profunctors got involved.
05:35:29 <shachaf> You don't need to know about Bazaar to use lens.
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05:35:49 <int-e> (Yes, that's my fault, trying to understand the library in details rather than following tutorials.)
05:36:04 <Bike> ais523: well, that should explain tings nicesly
05:36:04 <shachaf> No, understand Bazaar is good.
05:37:17 <int-e> shachaf: I still have not used lens; I'm warily eyeing it from a distance (except maybe once trying to decipher some golfing on #haskell)
05:37:54 <shachaf> Do you know what Traversal is? It's pretty straightforward.
05:38:18 <int-e> Not in so many words.
05:39:04 <int-e> At least my vague memory resembled "A Traversal a b c d is a generalization of traverse from Traversable." (which doesn't explain so much, yet)
05:39:29 <shachaf> If I'm going to talk about lens I probably shouldn't drown out this channel...
05:39:37 <int-e> But I guess the generalisation has a similar motivation as giving lenses four parameters instead of two.
05:40:23 <shachaf> Four parameters is pretty natural.
05:40:37 <shachaf> I can talk about it in #haskell-overflow if you're interested.
05:41:03 <Bike> busy watching people silently play video games in the dark
05:41:08 <int-e> yes it is, after banging your head against a wall a few times ;-)
05:44:09 * int-e s t a b s shachaf from behind.
05:44:26 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess you could've been in #-overflow all along.
05:45:27 <shachaf> "s t a b" is my fault too. It was a b c d before that.
05:46:38 <int-e> I'm usually not there.
05:46:51 <int-e> Too many lenses ;-)
05:47:16 <int-e> and please don't tell me that the lens library has shards.
05:47:53 <shachaf> Maybe you can't pluralize that.
06:02:24 <int-e> shachaf: you just love hearing yourself type?! *ducks*
06:03:17 <shachaf> int-e: I'm trying to gather my thoughts for an introduction that I'm going to write someday.
06:03:26 <shachaf> I think you might know all this too well to be a target audience for it, though.
06:10:30 <oerjan> hm bitcoin looks crashy
06:11:42 <Bike> have you ever, like, really looked at your bitcoins
06:14:57 <oerjan> i just like looking at the graph occasionally.
06:30:41 <myname> i only like it if these bitcoin fanboys start to cry
06:31:14 <zzo38> Even 2600 uses bitcoins now.
06:36:07 <zzo38> Do you like the music for staffroll in Pokemon Card GB2?
06:38:05 <Bike> no, it's too tall
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07:36:40 <zzo38> Have you heard of the following quotation before? "Satanism is a Christian's way of becoming enlightened."
08:02:07 <zzo38> It seems that it might have a Zen kind of correctness. (maybe)
08:09:54 <oerjan> i don't know if i'd trust the satanists on that, _even_ if the christians need enlightenment.
08:10:43 <zzo38> I wouldn't, but that isn't what I think of it at all, at least.
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08:37:08 <int-e> oh well, I made a first effort, now waiting for henkma to overtake me.
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08:41:45 <HackEgo> 1222) <fungot> we have today opened a smoking zone behind the hemicycle
08:42:36 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1222s/we/[...] we/;1222s/$/ [...]/' quotes
08:42:40 <HackEgo> 1222) <fungot> [...] we have today opened a smoking zone behind the hemicycle [...]
08:44:27 <shachaf> int-e: what's with this pattern
08:45:45 <shachaf> oh, i misread the beginning
08:47:33 <HackEgo> 931) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my grasp of the English language is getting better by visiting this channel..
08:47:43 <HackEgo> 38) <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
08:47:45 <HackEgo> 201) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
08:47:48 <HackEgo> 155) <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
08:47:50 <HackEgo> 423) <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian.
09:04:03 <shachaf> Are there any extensions turned on for this golf thing?
09:28:29 <int-e> I guess not, extrapolating from BangPatterns, which are not available.
09:38:43 <shachaf> A file without a final newline is valid, right?
09:39:17 <shachaf> Well, the obvious approach isn't anywhere close to int-e's 85 so a few characters here and there won't save me.
09:45:18 <oerjan> and here again i'm stuck at int-e+1
09:52:12 <oerjan> now to wait for the competition to trounch me again
09:52:21 * shachaf wonders what the clever trick is.
09:53:05 <oerjan> also, how is trounch actually spelled
09:54:31 <shachaf> The special case for the first line is annoying. Perhaps there's a way to do without it.
10:02:46 <ais523> I think "trounce" is probably the word you're looking for
10:03:54 <ais523> what is the pattern for that hello hello world puzzle?
10:04:23 <ais523> I thought it looked like ternary
10:04:26 <shachaf> It looked like a bizarre sort of base 3 until I remembered how 0 works.
10:05:33 <ais523> bleh, Perl doesn't have a function for converting numbers to an arbitrary base
10:05:49 <ais523> although, hmm, I have an evil idea
10:05:58 <oerjan> haskell has, but not without a verbose import
10:06:21 <shachaf> It's verbose even after the import.
10:06:46 <lambdabot> (Show a, Integral a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS
10:07:10 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe that actually works well for thise use case.
10:07:11 <oerjan> also, sadly it has that fixed Char type
10:07:21 <shachaf> Oh, so it does. What a scow.
10:08:03 <shachaf> putStr, putStrLn, unlines, unwords, etc. are so verbose
10:08:34 <oerjan> i had an idea that i thought would shave off 3 more chars, but sadly my output started sprouting extra whitespace
10:09:14 <shachaf> I had all sorts of whitespace problems and dealt with them in awful ways.
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10:13:55 <ais523> I'm on the leaderboard!
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10:19:42 <ais523> my Perl is apparently ten characters better than your Python
10:20:55 <oerjan> well i've no intention of trying to compete against other languages
10:21:18 <ais523> no, that doesn't really work, indeed
10:21:34 <oerjan> you'd think golfscript would do better than that, though
10:22:30 <oerjan> it's leading but only by about half
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10:23:09 <oerjan> i guess the same could be said of burlesque *ogles AndoDaan*
10:23:36 <ais523> the strange thing, though, is that this is pretty close to idiomatic Perl
10:23:37 <AndoDaan> hey, it's the first burlesque code
10:23:47 <oerjan> well i guess there's an amount of incompressible text in the problem
10:23:50 <AndoDaan> i've written over 10 characters
10:24:09 <ais523> apart from the compiler warning and the normal trick where you replace one numeric constant with $$
10:24:36 <AndoDaan> I have no idea how not to use "world" and "world!" in my code.
10:24:58 <AndoDaan> there should be a way to copy and modify it, but i don't know how.
10:25:33 <shachaf> Oh, I guess it's the pid. What's the trick?
10:25:37 <oerjan> i have an annoying duplication that i cannot see how to remove without making it longer
10:26:02 <ais523> shachaf: basically ensuring that the PID is the number you happen to want
10:26:09 <ais523> people used to run lots of junk programs to do that
10:26:24 <ais523> then shinh implemented a PID setting script in order to reduce the server load
10:27:45 <ais523> also, reducing the duplication of "world" isn't worth it; it costs me three bytes because the deduplication machinery is quite heavy and "world" is only five characters long
10:28:18 <shachaf> In one case I have it saving nothing.
10:28:23 <ais523> are you interested in my algorithm, btw, in case it translates to Haskell? or would you prefer no spoilers?
10:28:38 <shachaf> But that's only when I use m=[" world"," hello"," world!"] in order to avoid unwordsing. Which is probably not worth it.
10:28:48 <oerjan> maybe i could actually shorten my code by _removing_ the effort to construct "world!"
10:29:35 <shachaf> I don't think I mind spoilers at this point. I'm probably not going to submit a solution.
10:30:20 <ais523> this algo almost certainly doesn't translate well to Haskell anyway
10:30:34 <ais523> could translate well to GolfScript, though
10:31:52 <ais523> actually, no, it's missing relevant builtins
10:32:43 <shachaf> Do you have a special case for 0?
10:33:01 <b_jonas> yeah, perl has that only in some modules
10:33:08 <Patashu> does golf.shinh still limit you to 3 input/output pairs when submitting problems?
10:34:49 <ais523> Patashu: a common workaround is to give hundreds of input lines and hundreds of matching output lines
10:34:53 <ais523> then force the program to run in a loop
10:35:00 <b_jonas> `perl -e $t="x";for(1..99){$t++;$t=~y/a/x/;print" $t"} # there's some tricks but they're too long
10:35:00 <HackEgo> y z xx xy xz yx yy yz zx zy zz xxx xxy xxz xyx xyy xyz xzx xzy xzz yxx yxy yxz yyx yyy yyz yzx yzy yzz zxx zxy zxz zyx zyy zyz zzx zzy zzz xxxx xxxy xxxz xxyx xxyy xxyz xxzx xxzy xxzz xyxx xyxy xyxz xyyx xyyy xyyz xyzx xyzy xyzz xzxx xzxy xzxz xzyx xzyy xzyz xzzx xzzy xzzz yxxx yxxy yxxz yxyx yxyy yxyz yxzx yxzy yxzz yyxx yyxy yyxz yyyx yyyy yy
10:35:35 <ais523> b_jonas: ooh, that's clever; I was considering a solution that worked along those lines
10:35:51 <ais523> probably want to start with $t at w
10:36:03 <ais523> I don't think that algo will beat mine for the actual puzzle, though
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10:36:45 <ais523> how does Burlesque typically compare to GolfScript?
10:37:25 <AndoDaan> i'm not well versed enough, but I say it can compete.
10:37:28 <b_jonas> `perl -e $t="x";for(1..99){$t=~y/a/x/;print$t++,$"}
10:37:28 <HackEgo> x y z xx xy xz yx yy yz zx zy zz xxx xxy xxz xyx xyy xyz xzx xzy xzz yxx yxy yxz yyx yyy yyz yzx yzy yzz zxx zxy zxz zyx zyy zyz zzx zzy zzz xxxx xxxy xxxz xxyx xxyy xxyz xxzx xxzy xxzz xyxx xyxy xyxz xyyx xyyy xyyz xyzx xyzy xyzz xzxx xzxy xzxz xzyx xzyy xzyz xzzx xzzy xzzz yxxx yxxy yxxz yxyx yxyy yxyz yxzx yxzy yxzz yyxx yyxy yyxz yyyx yyyy yyyz
10:37:48 <AndoDaan> the average score is maybe a little lower than golfscript's though
10:38:43 <AndoDaan> http://golf.shinh.org/lranking.rb
10:39:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I know like lots of different solutions if you wanted to use base conversion in actual perl programs, but they don't work in golf
10:39:51 <AndoDaan> hmm burlesque's average is 4th only to golfscript, flogscript and gs2
10:39:58 <ais523> I noticed there wasn't a base conversion in standard library
10:40:02 <ais523> so I came up with something else
10:41:03 <b_jonas> yep. there's conversion only for some particular bases. you can do 10, 26, and most powers of 2 easily.
10:41:43 <b_jonas> If you go to programs somewhat longer than what typically comes up in golf, you can do pretty nice arithmetic in concise perl
10:41:48 <b_jonas> I have some examples on perlmonks
10:42:17 <b_jonas> like, I can arithmetic GF(128) values in three lines of perl
10:43:35 <b_jonas> in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=849259 I do hexadecimal bignum arithmetic in pure perl
10:43:42 <b_jonas> there's like lots of modules as well
10:43:55 <b_jonas> http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 does the GF(128) computation
10:45:22 <b_jonas> and it's easier if you only want to increment numbers, not add them
10:47:19 <ais523> made it shorter /and/ fixed the warning, nice
10:48:31 <b_jonas> of course, you should always consider straightforward solutions like repeated division/multiplication for conversion and doing the arithmetic with ordinary numbers
10:49:01 <b_jonas> we know since the roman numbers golf that it's always the best to do the arithmetic with builtins and convert both ways
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11:58:56 <mroman_> ais523: Golfscript is usually at an advantage due to shorter built-ins
11:59:23 <mroman_> so for stuff where Golfscript and burlesque solutions are very similar (in how they work)
11:59:29 <mroman_> the Golfscript one will be only 50% in size
12:00:24 <mroman_> i.e. duplicate stdin, reverse, append
12:00:28 <mroman_> is probably three bytes in gs
12:00:33 <mroman_> where it's at least 6 in blsq
12:00:47 <mroman_> which means blsq will only receive 5k points
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12:27:51 <mroman_> Although the average of a language with < 100 submissions isn't really saying anything
12:29:29 <mroman_> gs2 really decreased the averages of pretty much every language :)
12:29:45 <mroman_> blsq was in the 9k range with golfscript, flogscript I think
12:30:21 <mroman_> the problem is for example gs2 has a 1 byte built-in for certain challenges
12:30:26 <mroman_> where other languages need 30B
12:30:33 <mroman_> gs2 get's 10k at that challenge
12:30:42 <mroman_> and every other language scores 0.5k
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13:00:10 <Taneb> I am now really glad I have a backup keyboard
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13:28:38 <int-e> oh, golf.shinh.org allows garbage on stderr...
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13:48:02 <HackEgo> King2218: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:49:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: felcome: not found
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14:04:56 <ais523> what do you mean by "playground"?
14:05:49 <Jafet> Our bots are free-range
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14:30:15 <HackEgo> 14:30:02 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
14:30:16 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
14:30:38 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 2 \ 281 \ 285 \ 286 \ 287 \ 288 \ 289 \ 290 \ 291 \ 292 \ 3 \ 4 \ 47 \ 49 \ 5 \ 51 \ 6 \ 68 \ 7 \ 76 \ 77 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpageco
14:32:51 <Melvar> LordCreepity: Did you see anything in the reply to `uptime ?
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14:33:36 <Melvar> Not sure what’s up there, since idris-bot saw “14:30:02 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00”.
14:34:26 <LordCreepity> how cna you start up 0 seconds before a command
14:34:55 <ais523> the kernel might just have a habit of lying to you if you ask for privileged/confidential infomraiotn
14:35:11 <ais523> this is in the nature of sandboxes
14:35:12 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
14:35:47 <LordCreepity> i've never actually gotten that thing to work correctly
14:37:27 <HackEgo> Sun Oct 5 14:37:15 UTC 2014
14:37:42 <b_jonas> um, but the uptime isn't really confidental information for a process on Linux. they know that anyway from the monotonous clock which starts from zero on Linux, except maybe there could be a difference if the system's been hibernating.
14:38:00 <LordCreepity> on my system i can run uptime as a normal user just fine
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14:40:39 <ais523> umlbox is a little weird about what it lets you do, sometimes
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14:42:22 <b_jonas> well, it might just be an implementation thing. I believe uptime reads the uptime from an old /proc file that gives the uptime only to seconds precision
14:43:43 <ais523> cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
14:43:45 <ais523> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
14:43:45 <HackEgo> c03e16c4-a27c-470d-bd76-2faa903a7ff1
14:43:47 <ais523> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
14:43:48 <HackEgo> 930154b8-2b97-47c2-ad5f-2e0e55f9a9d4
14:43:56 <ais523> hmm, it is different each time, at least
14:44:01 <ais523> would be amusing if it wasn't :-)
14:45:21 <LordCreepity> i could troll really badly right now with a cat /dev/random
14:45:40 <ais523> meh, the bot's meant to be impossible to break
14:45:55 <ais523> hmm, that's an interesting approach
14:46:03 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:46:22 <ais523> the bots are meant to filter out implausible output
14:46:30 <ais523> in this case, I think it just timed out
14:46:41 <ais523> there was a bot who wasn't sanitizing its output recently
14:46:52 <ais523> which caused a bit of a row, but we brought it under control
14:47:19 <ais523> the worst things you can do are terminal control codes, but the only person it actually affected was Melvar (who's using some sort of custom framework for idris-bot)
14:47:21 <b_jonas> `od -tx1 -N16 /dev/urandom
14:47:22 <HackEgo> od: invalid character ` ' in type string `x1 -N16 /dev/urandom'
14:47:36 <b_jonas> `cmd od -tx1 -N16 /dev/urandom
14:47:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cmd: not found
14:47:40 <ais523> b_jonas: you mean `run
14:47:42 <b_jonas> `run od -tx1 -N16 /dev/urandom
14:47:43 <HackEgo> 0000000 37 90 97 8f de b8 00 9d cb b4 82 ff 49 9c cc 17 \ 0000020
14:47:55 <b_jonas> that's probably random, but of course you can't tell
14:48:01 <b_jonas> (that's the point of randomness)
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14:49:54 <Melvar> ais523: Not sure what you mean by custom framework … it’s straight off hackage.
14:50:26 <ais523> hmm, in that case, it's a framework that isn't used widely enough for protection against terminal control codes to have been implemented
14:51:13 <Melvar> Um, it’s simpleirc with debug logging turned on, and the debug log puts out literal raw messages.
14:51:36 <ais523> right, and the fix would be for the debug log to escape control codes
14:51:41 <Melvar> So it messes up the terminal, but the bot itself is not affected.
14:56:42 <ais523> hmm, perhaps we need another bot to send terminal reset codes, to put the terminal back to normal
14:57:02 <b_jonas> Melvar: the bot has to filter CR and LF, because those can affect the bot itself, eg. steal its nickserv password
14:58:42 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
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14:58:44 <elliott_> I don't think it can steal the password.
14:59:15 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/shadow: No such file or directory
14:59:23 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
14:59:29 <ais523> hmm, that's going to break a few things
14:59:49 <HackEgo> su: Cannot determine your user name.
15:00:10 <ais523> it would be hilarious if su was defeated via the means of not giving it any way to figure out a name/number mapping
15:00:18 <ais523> because it doesn't accept numbers as arguments
15:00:24 <HackEgo> kill: invalid option -- '9' \ \ Usage: \ kill [options] <pid> [...] \ \ Options: \ <pid> [...] send signal to every <pid> listed \ -<signal>, -s, --signal <signal> \ specify the <signal> to be sent \ -l, --list=[<signal>] list all signal names, or convert one to a name \ -L, --table list all sig
15:00:28 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: kill: (1) - Operation not permitted
15:00:35 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: kill: :-(: arguments must be process or job IDs \ bash: line 0: kill: a.out: arguments must be process or job IDs \ bash: line 0: kill: bdsmreclist: arguments must be process or job IDs \ bash: line 0: kill: bin: arguments must be process or job IDs \ bash: line 0: kill: binpipes: arguments must be process or job IDs \ bash: line 0: k
15:00:47 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: kill: (1) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (2) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (3) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (4) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (5) - Operation not permitted
15:01:00 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 286 ? 00:00:00 init \ 288 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 290 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 291 ? 00:00:00 cat
15:01:03 <ais523> `run kill 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
15:01:07 <HackEgo> kill: invalid option -- '9' \ \ Usage: \ kill [options] <pid> [...] \ \ Options: \ <pid> [...] send signal to every <pid> listed \ -<signal>, -s, --signal <signal> \ specify the <signal> to be sent \ -l, --list=[<signal>] list all signal names, or convert one to a name \ -L, --table list all sig
15:01:16 <ais523> `run kill -0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
15:01:16 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: kill: (1) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (2) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (3) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (4) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (5) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (6) - Operation not permitted \ bash: line 0: kill: (7) - Operation no
15:01:18 <LordCreepity> what was the command that said "You don't exist. Go away.
15:02:25 <HackEgo> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/../../../x86_64-linux-gnu/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
15:02:53 <ais523> it can try, but it fails due to the absence of main
15:03:18 <ais523> cc with no args is not ld with no args
15:03:24 <ais523> there are some default args, like crt1.o
15:03:31 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘--’ token
15:03:57 <ais523> `cc int main(void) { puts("test\n"); return 0; }
15:03:58 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:23: warning: missing terminating " character [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c:1:1: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/a.c:2:1: warning: missing terminating " character [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c:2:1: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/a.c:2:1: error: expected expression at
15:04:14 <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter
15:04:31 <ais523> that's the working one
15:06:02 <LordCreepity> `! c execl("/bin/ls", "ls", "/bin", (char*)0);
15:06:03 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
15:07:29 <LordCreepity> know of any c interpreters for linux? googled some before but couldn't seem to find one
15:07:52 <fizzie> The `cc is just an echo "$@" to a temporary file + gcc on it.
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15:08:19 <fizzie> And I think CINT (the thing ROOT used to run on) had a C mode, though it's more of a C++ interpreter.
15:08:58 <fizzie> Also I think they're moving to Cling.
15:09:02 <fizzie> http://root.cern.ch/drupal/content/cling
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15:31:13 <fizzie> (The number is the process ID.)
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17:32:12 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
17:35:06 <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore
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17:35:28 <b_jonas> ] 'evalj doesn''t either, I rarely start it'
17:35:29 <evalj> b_jonas: evalj doesn't either, I rarely start it
17:35:51 <ais523> how many J bots do we have? 3?
17:36:27 <b_jonas> ais523: it's all the same bot, but instances ran by different people. there were like six instances so far, some of them dead for years because their running people disappeared
17:37:02 <b_jonas> (well, technically, NotJack wrote a J bot that wasn't derived from it, plus buubot had a J plugin that I wrote that was derived from it but isn't the same)
17:37:19 <b_jonas> (the notable part about NotJack's bot is that he wrote it in J)
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18:38:36 <mroman_> b_jonas: q#Rc! is btw. duplicate bottom ;)
18:49:47 <mroman_> Today's burlesque related topic
18:50:05 <mroman_> is #Q#q#j#J#s#Sif turing complete
18:50:21 <mroman_> or what's the minimal subset of builtins + #Q#j#j#J#s#S to make it turing complete
18:52:16 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
18:53:44 <fizzie> I have "hello hello world" an initial Forth go, and ended up with 150 characters. :)
18:59:23 <boily> what is an initial Forth go?
19:00:34 <fizzie> Just writing a thing in Forth with a general "don't waste code" idea in mind, but not doing any editing afterwards.
19:14:35 <fizzie> Aw, mplayer's playback speed twiggle just resamples instead of properly time-stretching.
19:19:52 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be a terribly high-quality one.
19:20:53 <boily> I haven't mplayered in a long time. my life is becoming orthogonal with my priorities.
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19:56:08 <AndoDaan> okay, mroman_, tell me which is the state stack, and which the normal stack.
19:56:45 <fizzie> Can someone else answer, or does it have to be mroman_?
19:58:16 <fizzie> The state stack is just a secondary stack that you access with those pP PP Pp things, with the distinction that the state stack's the same stack even inside blocks you are m['ing or f['ing or whatever, where the code inside won't normally access the global stack.
19:59:29 <AndoDaan> I think that was my understanding, but when i try and peek and pop, pop goes my interpreter.
19:59:43 <fizzie> Have you put anything there to peek/pop?
20:01:23 <fizzie> There's nothing on the state stack to pP from, I don't think.
20:01:43 <fizzie> !blsq 0Pp "foo bar baz quux"wd{PP+.JPp ?+}m[
20:01:43 <blsqbot> {"foo1" "bar2" "baz3" "quux4"}
20:01:55 <fizzie> There's an example of using the state stack to do a manual counter.
20:02:35 <fizzie> Though I'm sure that particular example would be better with some sort of zip-based thing.
20:03:19 <AndoDaan> okay, the firs PP puts "foo" too here0Pp
20:03:35 <fizzie> The 0Pp puts a 0 on the (initially empty) state stack, yes.
20:04:12 <fizzie> And the PP moves it back from the state stack to the normal stack, the +. increments it, and the JPp puts a copy back on the state stack for the next round.
20:05:06 <fizzie> What, like, stdin is on both stacks initially?
20:05:28 <fizzie> Well, I didn't know that. At any rate.
20:05:29 <AndoDaan> ah, i think i see my misunderstanding
20:06:10 <AndoDaan> going to mess around a bit, thanks!
20:06:28 <mroman_> but fizzie explained it perfectly otherwise
20:07:58 <fizzie> For the record, "foo bar baz quux"wd1R@{?+}Z] would presumably be better for the particular example I used.
20:08:28 <mroman_> There are some implications for laziness though when using the secondary stack
20:09:08 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
20:09:37 <mroman_> doing a pP here will make the code never terminate
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20:11:11 <mroman_> (because theoretically the last element on the stack would be the last element of 1R@ but 1R@ doesn't have a last element)
20:12:24 <mroman_> even though you may think with 10.+ the state stack will only contain 10 elements as well...
20:13:59 <fizzie> Do you have some sort of a general policy to make operands that take "block, int" kind of arguments to be usable also in "int, block" order?
20:15:07 <fizzie> I noticed that was the case for .+ and some others, but not e.g. !!.
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20:15:40 <fizzie> Maybe "e.g." is wrong, !! is the only thing I ran across, really.
20:16:05 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (!!) Invalid arguments!
20:16:08 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (!!) Invalid arguments!
20:16:25 <mroman_> fizzie: I'll add it to the todo list
20:17:55 <fizzie> I didn't even know about ch. But the n! makes it not quite the same as !!.
20:18:39 <mroman_> there's a shorter way to do that
20:18:45 <AndoDaan> !blsq 'e {1 1}{{'a 'b}{'c 'd}}D!
20:18:46 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (D!) Invalid arguments!
20:18:48 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (cw)!
20:19:07 <mroman_> mainly because "yes no"wd is shorter than {"yes""no"}
20:19:24 <mroman_> AndoDaan: other way around
20:19:49 <AndoDaan> !blsq {{'a 'b}{'c 'd}}{1 1}'e D!
20:20:46 <mroman_> fizzie: the actual policy is if something is
20:21:10 <mroman_> Block x, Foo b (where Foo is not Block) that it would be nice if it also works for Foo b, Block x as well
20:21:31 <mroman_> so if you happen to come across a built-in where a reversed argument order can be added just give me a heads-up
20:21:42 <mroman_> what doesn't work is Block f, Any a for example
20:21:47 <mroman_> because a could also be a block
20:23:07 <mroman_> this could also support Char b, Str a
20:24:12 <mroman_> there are a lot of built-ins where you could do that
20:24:29 <fizzie> One thing I was missing was to go from '1 to 1 in one instruction; I couldn't think of anything shorter than [-ri (or some other two-instruction alternatives). Though I don't know how common that is, and two instructions isn't very much.
20:25:27 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (td) Invalid arguments!
20:25:53 <fizzie> Well, okay, yes, I also wanted to go from '0 to 0 and '2 to 2, not just '1 to 1.
20:26:44 <fizzie> (The "ri tests chars for alpha-numericness" was a nice twist.)
20:27:57 <fizzie> !blsq '2XXti "also works"vv
20:28:46 <fizzie> I guess XX and [- do the same for a char argument.
20:29:21 <mroman_> ti could actually do Char -> Int
20:30:59 <fizzie> Alternatively, B! could accept Char in addition to String (and then b0, b6 would be short ways to convert digit characters to numbers).
20:50:08 <zzo38> I thought of to make up a variant of Pokemon type matrix where it mathematically is an actual matrix.
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21:01:44 <Taneb> Every time I start a D&D campaign DM'd by someone called Liam, in the first encounter I get messed up by corvids...
21:02:25 <ais523> is it the same Liam every time?
21:02:31 <ais523> or is this just a general property of Liams?
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21:26:46 <zzo38> Can scanf("%*1[ ]") be a proper C code?
21:28:25 <ais523> zzo38: no, because you didn't give it enough arguments
21:28:35 <ais523> also I don't think that 1 is legal in that context
21:29:31 <zzo38> ais523: Why is that? How should it be?
21:29:33 <b_jonas> ais523: but the * means there's no argument
21:29:47 <ais523> b_jonas: did I confuse scanf with printf?
21:30:01 <ais523> I thought * meant it consumed an argument to get a count
21:30:14 <b_jonas> dunno, I'm not sure it's legal or standard or anythin
21:31:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you want to execute it? I think if you never execute it then it's leval
21:31:21 <b_jonas> (hey, sorry for nitpicking, but we're on that channel)
21:31:50 <Taneb> ais523, it has happened with two different Liams
21:32:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes if it is executed how do you expect it to work
21:32:48 <ais523> b_jonas: you can normally assume that here, there's a decent chance that we're looking for an answer to the question we actually asked, even if it seems insane
21:33:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: from looking it up, yes, I think it is valid, and will skip a single space. the star makes sure it doesn't try to assign to anywhere and doesn't expect an argument.
21:37:10 <zzo38> Is something like if(scanf("\e[%d;%dR",&y,&x)!=2) a proper way to read the cursor position (after printf("\e[6n"))?
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21:37:18 <b_jonas> (not counting locale and wide character and that kind of complications, which I probably don't understand)
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21:37:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, because you may get other input from the terminal before that reply
21:37:59 <zzo38> b_jonas: Well, perhaps the program could first set the locale to the C locale before doing anything else, if that can help.
21:38:01 <b_jonas> and this may partially match that other input, consuming a prefix
21:38:16 <fizzie> \e is also not one of the standard escape sequences, though it's quite common.
21:38:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: the locale is already the C locale unless you specifically set it otherwise
21:38:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's trickier in a library of course
21:38:46 <zzo38> What other input from the terminal will come up?
21:38:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: what a user happens to type, if there's some lag
21:39:14 <zzo38> Well, I intend to check the cursor position before the user types anything
21:39:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: he may have typed something before you first read anything, and it's still in the buffer,
21:39:32 <zzo38> It doesn't prompt for anything at that point in the program
21:39:40 <zzo38> Or before that point, either.
21:40:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: in a program like nethack, you probably need to parse all kinds of terminal input sequences properly anyway (keystrokes, mouse, etc)
21:40:18 <b_jonas> so just use that and treat \e[1;1R as any other keyboard input
21:40:35 <b_jonas> you might use a library for that, like libtermkey, or roll your own
21:41:18 <zzo38> Well, it does this only at the beginning of the program, anyways; it never requests a cursor position after that.
21:41:57 <zzo38> Also, if you type in a terminal that will keep the cursor at the last column when a character is typed there and wrap only after another character is typed, what will be the response for the cursor request?
21:42:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK I can understand you but this is not Nethack and stuff like that
21:43:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, tias, it might depend on the terminal
21:44:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for the scanf, well, I think it's not the proper way, but it might work well enough as a kludge. you can at least try to read as much from the input nonblockingly as there is before you emit the query to make the kludge less likely to fail.
21:44:12 <zzo38> Well, I want to detect the wrapping mode of the terminal as well as the number of rows and columns.
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21:45:46 <zzo38> It might be a remote terminal, so system calls cannot necessarily be used.
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21:46:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: terminal size is forwarded well enough on remote terminals, through telnet and ssh and all that
21:47:14 <b_jonas> telnet and ssh have a protocol for that, and then they tell the kernel about the size for the master side of the pty with an ioctl, so that you can then read the terminal size from the slave side of the pty with another ioctl fine
21:47:27 <b_jonas> just like with "real' terminals
21:47:53 <b_jonas> it's about the only information you can usually trust to be relayed well through ssh and telnet
21:48:03 <b_jonas> you can't really trust the terminal type
21:48:33 <b_jonas> but you can probably also use the cursor position query to find the size instead, if that's supported
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21:50:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: for the terminal size, you can try to check what ais does in libuncursed
21:50:26 <b_jonas> I don't know about wrapping, but it's worth a try to ask him
21:50:26 <zzo38> The program can also be run on Windows (although then you have to use non-ANSI mode if the standard Windows terminal window is used).
21:50:38 <zzo38> And I still also want to know the wrapping modes.
21:52:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: libuncursed uses the cursor location query to detect whether the encoding of the terminal is a byte encoding or utf-8
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21:56:55 <zzo38> Yes I can see that can help, but in my case I don't need any non-ASCII characters anyways.
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22:00:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, I'm just saying he might know how to do this
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22:18:30 <zzo38> I know that PuTTY can use CSI [18t to figure out the terminal size, although this isn't listed in Wikipedia or anything like that and doesn't appear to be a standard command; also it doesn't detect wrapping modes.
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22:25:01 <zzo38> At least for this wrapping, PuTTY returns the position where the cursor is displayed.
22:25:41 <zzo38> If you have Linux on your computer, can you test to see what it does on Linux?
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00:41:30 <Bicyclidine> you need to use `run if you want to do most shell things
00:41:40 <HackEgo> /bin/sh: 0: Illegal option --
00:42:02 <LordCreepity> `run file="hello"; while read -r $file; do echo "$file" ; echo "everyone" ; done
00:43:08 <Sgeo> http://www.nomyx.net/
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01:19:22 <newsham> `run env f='() {;}; echo hi' echo x
01:19:56 <newsham> `run env f='() {;}; echo hi' /bin/bash -c "echo x"
01:19:57 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: f: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ /bin/bash: f: line 0: `f () {;}; echo hi' \ /bin/bash: error importing function definition for `f' \ x
01:20:14 <newsham> `run env f='() {:;}; echo hi' /bin/bash -c "echo x"
01:20:14 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: f: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ /bin/bash: f: line 0: `f () {:;}; echo hi' \ /bin/bash: error importing function definition for `f' \ x
01:20:16 <shachaf> `run env f='() { true; }; echo hi' bash -c 'echo x'
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01:20:58 <shachaf> Probably not a big deal in HackEgo.
01:21:12 <newsham> i dunno.s omeone might inj on my irc cmds!@#
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01:34:32 <zzo38> Is there a suitable way in a C code that a function can skip a part of the calling function? (That would work in Windows, Linux, and other systems including non-x86; however, it is still GNU C.) In my case, in case of an error, it breaks into a debugger, and if the instruction it is in the middle of interpreting is skipped, to just go back and continue with the next one as if nothing happened.
01:35:33 <zzo38> Or maybe there is a better way
01:37:26 <zzo38> I thought longjumps don't alawys work properly for some reason?
01:38:27 <Bike> that's pretty vague
01:39:43 <zzo38> Cygwin seems to not include any documentation about such thing anyways
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01:42:55 <Sgeo> Still, a lot of people have been sacrificed to that vending machine.
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01:44:32 <Sgeo> https://i.imgur.com/RFbQ5gY.jpg
01:44:58 <Bike> do you ever wonder how they do that with their hair
01:45:06 <Bike> or eyes, or lack of nose, or
02:18:04 <newsham> longjump is standard. should be the same in gnu on linux, in cygwin and in visual studio in windows
02:18:22 <newsham> it sounds like you want exception handlers, but not using c++ execption handlers?
02:24:15 <zzo38> I am using C not C++
02:24:59 <zzo38> Is it possible in C anyways?
02:25:26 <newsham> if i understand correctly, longjmp should work
02:25:48 <newsham> in the caller you would if(setjmp(....)) { ... do stuff ... } ... stuff you want to skip to ....
02:26:10 <newsham> then in the callee you'd longjump, it would go back to the setjmp, but with a diff value
02:26:41 <newsham> oops, if(!setjmp(..)) { .. rather
02:26:48 <newsham> the firszt time setjmp returns zero.. goes into the if statement
02:27:01 <newsham> when you longjmp, it goes back to the setjmp but you give another value except zero and it skips the iff
02:27:09 <zzo38> Cygwin doesn't mention it in the documentations at all though
02:27:20 <newsham> zzo38: cygwin supports it.
02:27:23 <Bike> zzo38: it's just standard c
02:27:26 <FreeFull> It's not something that is used very often in C code
02:27:37 <zzo38> FreeFull: I am using it for a debug break though, so it doesn't need to be particularly efficient.
02:28:13 <zzo38> newsham: O, but still I am using MinGW, not Cygwin; just MinGW doesn't have man pages.
02:29:00 <Bike> https://gitorious.org/mingw/mingw-runtime/source/fe345a084b4e3d16e691515fed9c82910209c2ff:include/setjmp.h#L40 looks reliable
02:29:30 <zzo38> Yes, I see I do have setjmp.h
02:32:13 <zzo38> It says it might not work on Alpha, but I don't care much about that because the header file isn't part of the distribution of the program; if you want to compile it on a different computer it is your job to use a proper header file.
02:32:42 <zzo38> I will try to look in Wikipedia to see if it has a proper document perhaps?
02:33:35 <Bike> just use setjmp and complain to the implementors if it ain't workin
02:36:55 <zzo38> In my case it might work even to simply ignore the return value of setjmp
02:37:46 <zzo38> Or perhaps: while(setjmp(buf)); Is such a thing necessary or not?
02:38:10 <zzo38> I don't even know if it would work at all, actually.
02:46:29 <zzo38> Wikipedia does say it is permitted to use it as the condition of if, switch, and iteration with or without "!" at front and it is also allowed to use as a statement by itself and ignore the return value.
02:47:55 <Bike> newsham just suggested that pattern to emulate a try/catch sorta dealie
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02:49:42 <zzo38> I mean is it OK to call longjmp twice with the same buffer (as long as whoever calls setjmp doesn't return before that)?
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03:09:23 <zzo38> It does say "The values of automatic variables are unspecified after a call to longjmp()..." in some circumstances, but I don't need any of those circumstances anyways since I will reinitialize them in the beginning of the loop that comes right after the setjmp() call.
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03:13:40 <Sgeo> Do people here have an opinion on MealSquares/
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03:45:43 <quintopia> Sgeo: i considered doing the beta, but realized i didn't want to pay that much for food i might hate
03:46:14 <Sgeo> I'm considering it but I want a working fridge first
03:46:46 <Sgeo> Also worried it could be dangerous. Not really planning on living solely on it, but in terms of there's at least one nutrient they've put a lot of in, etc
03:47:11 <quintopia> if they drop the price when it goes into production, i'd reconsider
03:58:01 <Sgeo> Eh, I'm about to spend way too much on a hotel an hour from where I live, so
03:59:11 <zzo38> On ##C channel they told me that it is not allowed to longjmp to the same buffer twice, so I need while(setjmp(buf)); instead.
03:59:28 <zzo38> Do you know if there are other programs having such an empty loop like that?
03:59:50 <Sgeo> It doesn't look that empty to me
04:00:12 <Sgeo> Not very traditional, but it's not while(1);
04:00:14 <zzo38> Well, the condition is not empty; the body if the loop is empty, though.
04:00:50 <Sgeo> Pretty sure I've seen abuses of the condition with empty body as a joke.
04:01:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, in this case it isn't as a joke.
04:01:09 <Sgeo> Also saw the gozto --> operator as a joke... and then saw it in production code.
04:01:25 <zzo38> quintopia: I mean specifically set setjmp as the condition, though.
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04:02:33 <quintopia> zzo38: i would expect something like while(handle_events()); in production code maybe.
04:02:34 <Sgeo> Still less WTFy than [censored] for [duration of time censored]
04:03:11 <zzo38> quintopia: I have done things like that too, but cannot remember if I have seen it in other programs.
04:03:18 <Sgeo> I laughed when I heard it because it was so horrible
04:03:41 <shachaf> zzo38: while (*dst++ = *src++); is the classic strcpy() implementation.
04:03:50 <Sgeo> Wait, heard... something, but discoverd the censored thing myself
04:03:59 <Sgeo> I think the thing I heard was another similar instance
04:04:10 * Sgeo doesn't really remember
04:05:02 <Sgeo> quintopia: the gozto?
04:05:15 <Sgeo> It's x-- > 0, for example, just made to look like a single operator
04:05:29 <Sgeo> while(x --> 0) { /* stuff */ }
04:06:16 <zzo38> I believe POSIX says that while(setjmp(buf)); is explicitly allowed.
04:06:38 <Sgeo> Stuff I still probably shouldn't reveal in public due to being work related.
04:07:08 <quintopia> then don't even mention it at all?
04:07:15 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Mikuru.
04:07:18 -!- Mikuru has changed nick to Sgeo.
04:07:27 <Sgeo> Apparently that nick is classified... I mean registered
04:17:39 <zzo38> The while(setjmp(buf)); comes just before the main loop of the interpreter, and the first part of that main loop is to read the next instruction to execute, so it should work if the debugger then interrupts the execution of the current instruction (which it will only do if you tell it to do so).
04:18:10 <zzo38> For example I have while(dstackptr==512) debugger("Data stack overflow."); and then the debugger function might do if(pc_changed) longjmp(exception_buffer,1);
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04:51:50 <oerjan> @tell <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter <-- `cc interprets \n as newline, so you need to escape \'s. also it's useful becase `! c is currently broken for whole modules because gcc has become so flexible it accepts almost anything inside main (and i can find no option to turn allowing nested main() off.)
04:53:01 <shachaf> i don't think that @tell would work anyway hth
04:53:26 * oerjan wonders how often he's done that lately
04:53:36 <oerjan> if log searched worked, i could find out
04:55:07 <oerjan> int-e: would it be too much to ask that @tell give an error message if the nick contains illegal characters?
04:55:14 <shachaf> i count a whole buncha occurrences in the past couple of years but don't have recent logs for this year hth
04:55:40 <shachaf> oerjan: At least @tell was "fixed" to make @tell nick: and @tell nick, work.
04:56:52 <oerjan> THAT DOESN'T HELP US ABSENT-MINDED CLODS
05:00:01 <oerjan> oh god reading the logs is annoying when you cannot @tell people
05:00:13 <oerjan> and "everyone" is sleeping
05:00:51 <oerjan> memoserv is so subtle that i have trouble noticing it when i get messages from it.
05:01:46 <oerjan> besides is just feels wrong
05:02:56 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore <-- good look making fungot support unbalanced parentheses in its ^prefixes, that was the whole reason i suggested giving idris-bot the ( prefix
05:02:56 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, more than 10 per cent of all national laws, we can only guess at the moment, as pointed out in his report.
05:05:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
05:08:46 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
05:12:33 <oerjan> ok it's so annoying i'm going to skip the logs today.
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05:22:46 <zzo38> How common in C are structures that never have any variables of that type and are not used for anything else either (and also not in a header file or macro)?
05:25:46 <fizzie> `run echo 'int main(void) { int main(void) { return 1; } return 0; }' | gcc -std=c11 -pedantic-errors -x c - -o /dev/null
05:25:47 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:18: error: ISO C forbids nested functions [-pedantic] \ <stdin>:1:22: error: ‘main’ is normally a non-static function [-Wmain]
05:26:31 <Bike> reminds me i got a bizarre looking linker error because the aseembler uses the opposite link annotation convention from C, or suchlike
05:27:24 <Bike> and my main ended up static. oops
05:28:07 <fizzie> Of course -pedantic-errors combined with a thing that doesn't show the error messages has its own drawbacks.
05:30:42 <oerjan> fizzie: well ok but that disables _all_ gcc extensions doesn't it?
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05:31:13 <oerjan> shachaf: not being able to @tell.
05:38:12 <oerjan> `fetch http:/oerjan.nvg.org/gcccomp
05:38:13 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `http'
05:38:15 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, but STANDARD C.
05:38:22 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/gcccomp
05:38:27 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 05:38:13 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/gcccomp [1386/1386] -> "gcccomp" [1]
05:39:07 <oerjan> `run chmod +x gcccomp; mv gcccomp interps/gcccomp
05:39:31 <oerjan> `! c int main(void) { print("test"); }
05:39:43 <oerjan> `! c int main(void) { printf("test"); }
05:40:30 <fizzie> That "does not compile." is the most user-friendly thing in the world.
05:42:58 <oerjan> oh well it was a totally evil hack anyway.
05:43:13 <oerjan> and now the neighbor's dog is starting to bark, so my brain cannot do any more.
05:45:14 <oerjan> of course it stopped immediately when i gave up, which tells me this was a message from the universe (and also, that God is evil.)
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06:09:56 <zzo38> Do you like John Stump's music? Does anyone write more difficult music?
06:10:41 <lifthrasiir> `! c int main(void) { printf("Does not compile."); }
06:11:01 <lifthrasiir> `! c int main(void) { printf("Does not compile.") }
06:11:13 <lifthrasiir> `! c int main(void) { printf("Does compile."); }
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06:36:29 <int-e> @tell oerjan Strange, the screen session lambdabot was running in died... no reboot, no core dump (err, ok,,
06:37:46 <int-e> @tell oerjan (err, ulimit -c says I don't get any core dumps, that's something worth changing...), no relevant OOM kills.
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07:29:15 <int-e> @tell oerjan and now I have a cron job for restarting the screen session if it gets lost. let's wait and see how lambdabot fails next time.
07:55:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7d 7h 26m 21s ago: <mroman_> `learn "a b" is ab <-- we've always created multiword wisdom entries directly
07:55:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7d 7h 22m 58s ago: <mroman_> but it would be really huge if it were complete. <-- i'm secretly planning to split the table when it gets a bit wider.
07:58:01 <mroman_> fizzie: I guess B! can do that @char
07:58:43 <int-e> oh, sigh. lambdabot should *also* save its state regularly rather than when it exits.
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08:17:11 <fizzie> int-e: Do those messages ever expire?
08:17:31 <mroman_> I've already @messages-louded them.
08:17:36 <mroman_> That's what I meant by "old"
08:17:49 <fizzie> Yes, but they're also old chronologically speaking.
08:19:16 <int-e> fizzie: I don't think so, unless somebody wipes the state.
08:19:53 <int-e> fizzie: But the problem is that lambdabot died without saving its state, so we get the state from the time it restarted last before it died...
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08:22:58 <fizzie> I was just wondering how many messages-that-will-never-be-read it has accumulated.
08:23:29 <mroman_> The hackage-story with "corrupt acid-state logs" made me really sceptical of using acid-state in future projects
08:24:00 <mroman_> I guess if something breaks with acid-state you're really screwed.
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09:55:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Profischnell * New user account
09:56:09 <fizzie> Well, it's not quite a TwopartName.
09:56:27 <fizzie> (I switched the CAPTCHA question the other day.)
09:56:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Profischnell]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40577 * Profischnell * (+5963) Created page with "'''Good reasons Why you need to Understand some sort of Foreign language''' During the modern age, using globalization in it is top, understanding 1 or 2 extra 'languages' ha..."
09:56:51 <fizzie> That's not a good sign.
09:57:12 <fizzie> Though I suppose it could've been a human paid to spam. Didn't even trip any of the filters.
09:58:05 <fizzie> Maybe I should learn where the "this is a spammer" button is in the wiki.
09:59:18 <fizzie> I see there's a "block" link in RecentChanges, but I don't know what the standard settings for it are.
09:59:25 <ais523> fizzie: it isn't based on a bayesian filter or the like
09:59:40 <ais523> if you want to just block the user, hitting the block link takes you to a config page for the block
10:00:08 <fizzie> I know it isn't, but I thought it was quite effective against the automated ones.
10:00:11 <fizzie> Is that what we usually do?
10:00:18 <ais523> standard settings for something that is obviously a spambot, using a username, are a very long block (traditionally 24 years, but more recently normally indefinite), leave the autoblock on, deny account creation
10:00:45 <ais523> and no, the vast majority of our spam is caught by the spam filter, which is human-configured
10:00:57 <ais523> let me go look at that page to see if there's anything it's doing that humans would never do
10:01:13 <ais523> username matches the site it's spamming
10:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Profischnell]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
10:01:23 <fizzie> Well, maybe I did it right; who knows.
10:01:30 <ais523> that almost certainly means this is a one-off spambot
10:01:48 <ais523> I normally don't turn on "email disabled" because spambots have never in my experience actually sent one through the site
10:01:57 <ais523> and it gives a theoretical path to appeal a false positive
10:02:12 <ais523> the spam page itself also needs to be deleted
10:02:27 <fizzie> Oh, so it's email to the wiki admins? I wasn't sure what it was all about.
10:02:52 <ais523> if you have a verified email address and so does the target user
10:03:02 <ais523> you can email them through the site interface; you don't get to see their address, but they do get to see yours
10:03:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[User:Profischnell]]": Spam: content was: "[not very interesting]" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Profischnell|Profischnell]]")
10:03:40 <ais523> incidentally, that spam structure looks quite easy to filter
10:03:46 <ais523> things like bolding lines but using no headings are unlikely for humans to do
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10:48:27 <boily> !blqs "and now for something completely burlesque"2couN
10:48:43 <boily> can't type today...
10:48:45 <boily> !blqs "and now for something completely burlesque"2couN
10:48:50 <boily> !blsq "and now for something completely burlesque"2couN
10:49:06 <boily> !blsq "and now for something completely burlesque"13couN
10:49:30 <boily> ah. consecutive digits consecutively consecute.
10:59:48 <blsqbot> {{"abc" "bcd" "cde" "def"}}
11:02:23 <blsqbot> ["h", "\n", "i", "\n", "", "", "\n", "t", "\n", "h", "\n", "e", "\n", "r", "\n",
11:06:19 <mroman_> I should store my submissions
11:06:28 <mroman_> I sometimes forget how the hell I got 7B on something
11:06:45 <boily> note that I haven't read the burlespecification at all, and I'm forming haphazard mnemonics as to what's happening (extractor raccouN, small coshes, big COshes...)
11:06:59 <AndoDaan_> i try to do it, but then i get caught up and forget.
11:07:45 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 10):
11:08:07 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 14):
11:08:22 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
11:09:13 <mroman_> boily: there's racouN though
11:09:13 <AndoDaan_> hm what if a J was in there? could it be odd then?
11:12:20 <boily> @ask zui438s what the fungot have you done to the learndb.
11:12:21 <fungot> boily: mr president, mr president-in-office, i hope that it will be extremely vigilant and use the funds previously used to export ships and for joint ventures should in future be obliged to put rather unrealistic growth hypotheses and reduce the working hours of those who thinks that by approving this protocol. it is therefore not insensitive to that concern. since 70 of the money goes into the reserve and made specific refere
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11:12:57 <ais523> instead of spending money on exporting ships, we should spend it on unrealistic growth hypotheses
11:13:03 <boily> @ask oerjan there is stuff that has happened to the learndb. care to explain?
11:13:28 <ais523> boily: I guess we could just revert to an old version, they're all online
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11:15:18 <boily> ais523: indeed, but it's the easy way out. from what I grasp from the history, there's that “Atrocity”, and that big blob, and a few unimportant and/or uninspired things.
11:15:52 <boily> I always could include these, apply a nuclearevert, then wait for people to further mangle the poor db.
11:16:04 <ais523> I think you could delete the entire learndb without losing much, really, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask
11:16:18 <ais523> which is why you asked oerjan rather than me, presumably
11:17:10 <boily> I asked these two mécréants because their names appear in the recent history. otoh, your opinion of the db is quite sane.
11:17:53 <boily> oh well. time to shower, bus, food, job, and all that daylight sort of thing.
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11:23:09 <HackEgo> Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire.
11:26:09 <mroman_> wait. mroman_.slow is on 10 now?
11:26:51 <HackEgo> DE2>@:8.U%ؾ\.E*nsBo.,o:Ԡ7`g(׀gjٌ-/7k+}<dF4K{d/ r<->B$ϋA9r,a0*ǫ^\өg/]4n߶G5j[HRI8.ۄy
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11:46:46 <b_jonas> apparently http://underhanded.xcott.com/ posted their judgings for last year's contest. they're probably trying to continue the ioccc tradition with how late they are.
12:03:48 <Lymia> Can someone explain to me
12:04:12 <Lymia> Why the pesudocode for SHA-2 on the Japanese Wikipedia has comments in English?
12:04:37 <mroman_> english is the language used in code.
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12:21:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F
12:55:51 <elliott_> Lymia: aren't english comments pretty normal in japanese code?
12:57:16 <Lymia> The whole thing is in English
12:57:19 <Lymia> The whole pesudocode
12:57:31 <elliott_> japanese pseudocode sounds kind of odd.
12:57:40 <Lymia> Not unusual, but, I'd expect someone who can read English to be able to just use the English wiki.
12:57:58 <elliott_> my guess would be japanese programmers are just used to comments/keywords/etc. being english in code
12:58:02 <J_Arcane> I occasionally see code samples in Finnish, including the function names.
12:58:25 <elliott_> the programming world does not have great multilingual support :/
12:59:42 <J_Arcane> V. few non-English programming languages, probably because so much history is in the US.
13:00:37 <Lymia> Java and Scala both deal fine with Japanese identifiers
13:01:11 <J_Arcane> I think Haskell can do unicode, and Racket is as well.
13:01:33 <J_Arcane> I think the other thing is though is that I mostly find myself staring at OSS code, which is generally English anyway so that everyone can read it.
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13:06:33 <elliott_> imagine if programming first got popular in france or something
13:08:21 <J_Arcane> There was actually a French version of BASIC. XD
13:08:53 <J_Arcane> Thankfully while Finland has invented at least one programming language, its creator was sane enough to do it in English as well ... XD
13:11:23 <b_jonas> elliott_: nah, actually programming words are pretty much the same in French, so it would look the same basically
13:11:44 <b_jonas> some people actually use french words chosen specifically to look different from English
13:12:37 <Melvar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages has a list.
13:15:06 <J_Arcane> dammit, now I can't remember what it was called either.
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13:22:52 <J_Arcane> Ah hah! It was this one: http://www.survo.fi/muste/
13:23:59 <FireFly> All pseudo-code I've seen presented in courses, even by people insisting on using swedish CS terminology, have been in English FWIW
13:24:50 <mroman_> elliott_: learn french then
13:26:55 <J_Arcane> It only took me about a year to get pretty good at puzzling out basic written French. I was useless for spoken though.
13:27:48 <mroman_> I did it too @study 8 years
13:27:53 <mroman_> only took me three years to forget it all
13:28:19 <J_Arcane> Now I'm learning Finnish, because I live here.
13:30:01 <J_Arcane> And Haskell in my programming time. Because I like a challenge, I guess.
13:30:10 <Jafet> elliott: fucked by a swede, no less
13:31:24 <mroman_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_%28programming_language%29
13:31:39 <J_Arcane> Heh. A mad part of my brain just realized you could possibly express Haskell type declarations with Finnish suffixes instead of arrows ...
13:34:39 <J_Arcane> sanoa :: Merkkijonosta Merkkijonoon
13:34:53 <FireFly> You could invent the Haskell/Finnish relative of Perligata
13:35:47 <J_Arcane> FireFly: Oh my god, that is brilliant.
13:36:26 <mroman_> are you trying to force me to learn finnish?
13:36:30 <mroman_> because god help me I will do it
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13:37:21 <mroman_> Can't be so hard to learn if 6 Mio. people speak it .
13:38:58 <J_Arcane> heh. I am in a *very* good course, but very intensive, and our class size is dropping out like new boot camp recruits.
13:39:01 <int-e> could fungot learn finnish?
13:39:02 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i wish to express our positive, constructive suggestions in a recommendation three years ago, the commission is criticised for looking at things in a very unusual veil of secrecy finally going to agree on a common future for the many suggestions and ideas put forward by the commission is in favour of the data needed to develop criteria which can be studied at a later stage.
13:39:25 <FireFly> Depends on how you define "learn" and "finnish"
13:39:25 <int-e> I'll take that as a "maybe"
13:39:32 <Jafet> fungot could learn finnish faster than most of us
13:39:32 <J_Arcane> So, what fungot is saying is it doesn't understand Finnish either.
13:39:33 <fungot> Jafet: thank you very much for your support, must be to define rules and procedures have not been taken yet, the right priorities. the council has insisted on the objective of this regulation, ' fnord fnord est' or ' paper quotas' and that is a very unsatisfactory situation. i do not think this is an infringement. may i just give some clarification.
13:39:33 <fungot> J_Arcane: the answer is brief and clear. we must beware of placing contracts for research work on cancer and other serious diseases, as well as fnord fnord. i am prepared to discuss it.
13:40:11 <Jafet> (There should be a substantial finnish europarl, at least)
13:40:15 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, we have to clarify this point, i should like to ask, of course, the geneva convention guaranteeing that no-one is sent back to india by the greek authorities will themselves rectify the undesirable situation that has faced many women with insoluble conflicts. for in the maastricht treaty, i would like to tell you that the commission must be present in decision-making bodies and chang
13:41:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:41:42 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
13:41:56 <int-e> fungot please tell me this isn't as bad as it sounds
13:41:56 <fungot> int-e: i'd like to see one of the worst beatings i ever saw a man take was...
13:42:13 <int-e> ok, it is better than the sms fungot style
13:42:14 <fungot> int-e: ebony and ivory, i think he wants to meet you! we have a letter worthy of emperor akihito!
13:42:34 <J_Arcane> http://33.media.tumblr.com/e62fddefef8392c16134d851e2db473e/tumblr_mwytwhtGel1so4xnko1_500.png
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13:44:56 <J_Arcane> It is true. Those words are indeed synonyms (though "kuusi" -> "your moon", while correct, is obv. nonsense in most contexts not involving cheesy song lyrics)
13:47:34 <int-e> J_Arcane: do you have anything like the lion-eating poet in the stone den peom in Finnish?
13:47:50 <J_Arcane> Also fun is that Finnish loooves to make similar sounding words as opposites.
13:49:01 <J_Arcane> To a Finn they sound perfectly distinct, but for an american, "kuuma," (hot) "kulma," (corner) "kylmä" (cold) for instance aren't always so clear if spoken in a hurry...
13:52:13 <int-e> 4?... wait, which is the easy end?
13:53:10 <J_Arcane> Jään bussilla. - I stay on the bus. Jään pois bussista. - I get off the bus (lit. "I stay away from the bus").
13:55:00 <J_Arcane> :D Generally speaking, I'd say "harder than French, easier than Chinese".
13:59:09 <J_Arcane> The spelling is nice, at least. Some of the distinctions are hard for me to get write (Ä v. A, U v. Y), but as the Finnish writing system was essentially invented whole cloth, they were able to be completely consistent. Every word in Finnish is pronounced exactly as it's spelled.
13:59:31 <J_Arcane> Even dipthongs largely fall into place naturally if you just sound out the component vowels.
14:01:57 <FireFly> J_Arcane: perhaps they just don't see any reason to tell hot and cold apart :P
14:05:40 <J_Arcane> FireFly: The way I saw it when I took it in uni, was maybe in the days before the climate here started to warm it, 'hot' was just relative to 'not as bite-ass cold'. ;)
14:07:15 <mroman_> ä is something like a german ä
14:07:37 <mroman_> If I'm going to learn finish channel traffic here will increase
14:08:56 <mroman_> how many finns are in here?
14:09:39 <J_Arcane> I'm not a native, but I have emigrated to Finland permanently.
14:11:42 <J_Arcane> Though I was planning to emigrate after uni anyway; love and financial aid depts. conspired to hasten my escape.
14:13:09 <J_Arcane> I probably wouldn't have picked Finland first if I hadn't met my wife though ... XD
14:25:36 <fizzie> J_Arcane: It's also non-nonsense in a scifi context where people regularly own moons.
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14:27:14 <fizzie> Also I don't think "jään bussilla" means much anything; "I stay on the bus" would be "jään bussiin".
14:27:17 <ais523_> fizzie: or where planets are sufficiently intelligent that talking to them would be non-crazy
14:28:46 <fizzie> The regularity of the Finnish phonology is a boon for us speech-recognizer-writers; our lab's doesn't even use a pronunciation lexicon, it just generates phoneme sequences from grapheme sequences with very simple rules.
14:29:52 <quintopia> ais523_: the only planet that comes to mind is Solaris, and talking to it is always quite crazy
14:31:20 <ais523_> I can think of one that can be talked to quite sensibly, but it'd be a spoiler to discuss it and I'm not sure what this channel's spoiler policy is like
14:31:48 <ais523_> although "your" would be weird, because the planet in question has some degree of pronoun issues
14:33:07 <quintopia> J_Arcane: also, "I'm Your Moon" is a great song and not cheesy at all *harumph*
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14:36:28 <mroman_> are ais523_ and quintopia finns?
14:37:05 <quintopia> we aren't even the same *other* nationality
14:38:10 <mroman_> well.. then there's only fizzie and J_Arcane?
14:45:31 <fizzie> There are other Finns.
14:45:46 <fizzie> Less noisy ones, though.
14:46:38 <Taneb> I have a desk now!
14:47:55 <elliott_> J_Arcane: so in finnish, if you're staying away from somebody, you're getting them off?
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14:58:44 <quintopia> elliott_: they say absence makes the heart grow fonder. and science says it makes ejaculations more copious as well...
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17:31:39 <ais523> is there an appropriate channel for build system arguments/flamewars?
17:34:16 <fizzie> ##workingset is vaguely related: "Tool chain support and discussion for Posix(tm)-like operating systems | We cover the range of development tools (compilers, assemblers, linkers, makefiles, debuggers, developer applications & utilities, etc.)"
17:34:38 <fizzie> (It's where people on ##c send all the Makefile questions, I don't know anything else about it.)
17:35:01 <ais523> maybe once aimake's finished, I'll take it there
17:35:09 <fizzie> Not exactly specific to build systems, just toolchainery stuff in general.
17:35:14 <ais523> actually, maybe I'll write a big "why aimake is better than…" article
17:35:21 <ais523> listing all the popular build systems
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18:14:15 <ais523> I wrote massive hacker news bait by accident a while back, and posted it to reddit
18:14:25 <ais523> the hacker news thread was hilarious, the reddit thread a little more measured
18:14:31 <ais523> an article about memory management in C
18:14:38 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/blog/memory.html
18:14:55 <ais523> basically, because I think the reddit thread had more C programmers
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18:20:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: What about ping?
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18:36:28 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 59m 58s ago: Strange, the screen session lambdabot was running in died... no reboot, no core dump (err, ok,,
18:36:28 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 58m 40s ago: (err, ulimit -c says I don't get any core dumps, that's something worth changing...), no relevant OOM kills.
18:36:28 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 7m 12s ago: and now I have a cron job for restarting the screen session if it gets lost. let's wait and see how lambdabot fails next time.
18:36:28 <lambdabot> boily asked 7h 23m 24s ago: there is stuff that has happened to the learndb. care to explain?
18:37:19 <oerjan> @tell boily are you referring to anything other than what i reverted because it was meaningless junk submitted outside the channel?
18:40:19 <oerjan> @tell <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter <-- `cc interprets \n as newline, so you need to escape \'s. also it's useful becase `! c is currently broken for whole modules because gcc has become so flexible it accepts almost anything inside main (and i can find no option to turn allowing nested main() off.)
18:41:23 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter <-- `cc interprets \n as newline, so you need to escape \'s. also it's useful becase `! c is currently broken for whole modules because gcc has become so flexible it accepts almost anything inside main (and i can find no option to turn allowing nested main() off.)
18:42:02 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Except options to exclude all non-standard extension wholesale.
18:42:53 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore <-- good look making fungot support unbalanced parentheses in its ^prefixes, that was the whole reason i suggested giving idris-bot the ( prefix
18:42:53 <fungot> oerjan: ben, your response. what the fuck?
18:44:24 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore <-- good look making fungot support unbalanced parentheses in its ^prefixes, that was the whole reason i suggested giving idris-bot the ( prefix
18:44:24 <fungot> oerjan: you know, professional courtesy.
18:45:32 <oerjan> too many other j bots, got crowded
18:46:06 <elliott_> also, I like fungot's responses there
18:46:06 <fungot> elliott_: couldn't you have just shot my mom or something?
18:46:34 <oerjan> fungot may not be entirely sane.
18:46:34 <fungot> oerjan: pretty much, yeah. now say it in a girl voice. if you want.
18:47:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa* qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:48:22 <elliott_> I guess it's just near-verbatim quotes.
18:51:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, ais was here, you could ask him the question about terminals, but it's too late, he's gone.
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19:10:01 <fungot> mroman_: my favorite part about magic: the gathering is spitting on the people who play it. it took me a week to get this thing out of my ass.
19:10:10 <fungot> mroman_: i don't need to be quicker? " sega makes murder porn." we've had to scale back our plans for freelancer somewhat but what we've got has a lot of mail from people who feel that penny arcade lacks! oh! it could be worse.
19:10:10 <HackEgo> Sir Fungellot cannot be stopped by that sword alone!
19:11:33 <Gregor> Where can I acquire this SEGA murder porn >_>
19:13:16 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
19:14:05 <mroman_> `learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
19:14:14 <HackEgo> forty means "in a fort-like manner"
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19:18:29 <mroman_> whats lapsi, lapsen, lasta, lapsia
19:18:34 <mroman_> and what are "nominal types"?
19:21:22 <mroman_> finnish has >50 word categories that inflect differently?
19:23:25 <mroman_> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Finnish_nominal_inflection
19:23:48 <nortti> apparently we do, then
19:28:50 <mroman_> I guess that's pretty much of a turn off then
19:29:10 <mroman_> I'm not learning THAT MUCH freaking inflections just to tease the non-finns in here
19:29:29 <shachaf> Well, if the Finnish speakers in here didn't know about it, why should you?
19:29:39 <shachaf> Learning the grammar of a language and learning the language are separate activities.
19:30:27 <oerjan> mroman_: my guess is that they can be distinguished into (1) follows from relatively simple rules, and (2) are very few in number and so are what everyone else calls "irregular".
19:30:55 <mroman_> I think not even german has that many stuff to learn
19:31:04 <shachaf> English has more than 50 irregular things, I'm sure.
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19:31:49 <shachaf> speaking of which what's with hebrew plurals??
19:32:21 <Melvar> I don’t know about hebrew plurals, but I’m pretty sure they’re not as interesting as arabic ones.
19:32:36 <shachaf> why are arabic ones interesting
19:33:11 <mroman_> english conjugation is pretty much straightforward
19:33:12 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixes_in_Hebrew -- i wonder whether this counts as complicated
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19:33:23 <Melvar> There’s a bunch of different patterns how the broken plurals work.
19:33:26 <mroman_> nortti: but case endings are pretty much regular?
19:34:27 <nortti> and most of the ones that are more complex still follow quite simple rules
19:34:49 <mroman_> are just for the 3 cases genitive, partitive and illative?
19:35:06 <nortti> hm? no, there are 14 (I think)
19:35:16 <Melvar> shachaf: Let me just at this moment insert the funniness that arabic borrowed the word “film” from the west, and because it has three consonants in a usual pattern, it was decided that it had to take a broken plural form, so the plural is “aflam”.
19:35:21 <nortti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language_noun_cases
19:35:50 <mroman_> but those are the -lla things
19:36:01 <oerjan> nortti: i don't think mroman_ was asking how many cases there are
19:36:22 <Melvar> shachaf: “ʼaflām”, more correctly.
19:36:41 <mroman_> why does finnish_language_noun_cases list only one suffix
19:36:42 <shachaf> how many keeses are they? and are any of them not dutch?
19:36:48 <nortti> mroman_: I think only genetive, partitive and illative need to be shown, as other cases follow same logic as those
19:36:54 <mroman_> but some other page says there are 50 declension types?
19:37:29 <oerjan> Melvar: well hebrew and arabic are both semitic languages, so there's no intrinsic reason why they couldn't share a particular insanity.
19:38:17 <Melvar> oerjan: Right, I just happen to know pretty surely that modern hebrew at least is much more regular in that regard.
19:38:19 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_plural suggests that this thing is most "productive" in arabic
19:38:21 <fizzie> mroman_: atehwa, Deewiant and ineiros are all Finnish, too.
19:38:59 <shachaf> I went to a Finnish picnic of sorts yesterday.
19:39:32 <mroman_> what are some other nationalities here?
19:40:06 <mroman_> now I really have to learn finnish
19:40:17 <shachaf> I've only been there for two weeks. I don't speak Finnish or anything.
19:40:19 <fizzie> I think "arguably Finnish" would be a good term.
19:40:29 <mroman_> shachaf: oh. then you don't count
19:40:31 <shachaf> You can tease me by learning before I do.
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19:40:49 <mroman_> that'd be on the plus side of my imaginary pro/con list
19:41:05 <shachaf> fizzie: Enko ole suomalainen? :-(
19:41:08 <fizzie> There are some Swedes here too.
19:41:47 <nortti> it defaults to front vowels, I think
19:42:06 <nortti> olsner is the only one here I know is a swede
19:42:15 <oerjan> shachaf doesn't know vowel harmony?
19:42:21 <mroman_> so finnish is quite the dominant language here indeed
19:42:32 <shachaf> oerjan: What's ö harmonizing with, exactly?
19:42:44 <oerjan> olsner, FireFly and Vorpal at least
19:43:07 <nortti> oerjan: i and e are neutral in regards to vowel harmony
19:43:08 <shachaf> I can't tell whether you're making fun of me or I don't know something.
19:43:18 <fizzie> They're not entirely neutral, they just don't control the word.
19:43:37 <fizzie> "In the initial syllable: -- a neutral vowel acts like a front vowel, but does not control the frontness or backness of the word: if there are back vowels in non-initial syllables, the word acts like it began with back vowels, even if they come from derivational endings --"
19:43:59 <fizzie> In "en", there are no back vowels in non-initial syllables (or non-initial syllables at all), so it counts as front.
19:46:07 <nortti> shachaf: I think you mean "hepreaa". "heprea" is the nominative, "hepreaa" the partitive
19:46:58 <mroman_> That is if Vorpal, olsner or somebody can convince me to learn it
19:47:29 <HackEgo> Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
19:49:03 <mroman_> well Ada is a nice language...
19:49:13 <mroman_> so I can understand that Kalle is pleased about Ada
19:50:03 <oerjan> `learn Swedish is the language of fine cuisine.
19:50:07 <Taneb> Now I have a desk AND donuts
19:50:27 <fizzie> Taneb: Don't eat the desk by accident, that would be TRAGIC.
19:50:48 <oerjan> it's ok the desk is probably topologically different
19:50:56 <oerjan> beware of the coffee cup, though
19:51:02 <Taneb> fizzie, yeah, my desk is quite different topologically
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19:51:17 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't drink coffee! I think I'm safe
19:51:31 <shachaf> what is the fundamental group of your desk
19:51:47 <mroman_> His desk is a non-commuting monoid
19:51:53 <shachaf> imo finnish vowels should be more like hebrew vowels
19:52:00 <shachaf> hebrew vowels: the simplest?
19:52:08 <fizzie> My work desk is probably more or less equivalent to a donut, there's a hole for cables to go through.
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19:52:23 <oerjan> shachaf: i think standard arabic is simpler?
19:53:20 <shachaf> hebrew has a e i o u, short only
19:54:18 <oerjan> there may be some language that has only short a i u?
19:54:28 <shachaf> in the .il pronunciation anyway
19:54:33 <mroman_> you should learn swiss german
19:57:57 <oerjan> "Nearly all languages have at least three phonemic vowels, usually /i/, /a/, /u/ as in Classical Arabic and Inuktitut (or /ɐ/, /ɪ/, /ʊ/ as in Quechua), though Adyghe and many Sepik languages have a vertical vowel system of /ɨ/, /ə/, /a/"
19:59:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: see also http://wals.info/chapter/2
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20:03:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GeorgeEpicGen * New user account
20:05:16 <FreeFull> The problem in Hebrew is that there is a significant amount of text which only has the consonants
20:09:36 <zzo38> I have idea, can we make Pokemon Card retropuzzle?
20:11:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's "retropuzzle" mean?
20:12:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: Like chess retropuzzle, which is involving figuring out previous moves.
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20:12:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: retrograde analysis puzzle
20:13:03 <b_jonas> I don't know if that's possible (as in practical) for Pokemon Card
20:13:39 <zzo38> You should list the possible cards, of course.
20:14:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40578&oldid=40565 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+13) /* A */
20:18:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, barring un-cards like Chaos Confetti, cards can't just disappear, so they're always somewhere in the game state
20:18:51 <b_jonas> present in some zone or something
20:19:30 <zzo38> Yes, but I mean all cards that might be present in the game are listed in one section, including cards that you cannot see where they are.
20:20:03 <b_jonas> I don't really know Pokémon Card, so when you say this, I'm trying to mentally substitute M:tG of course
20:20:16 <b_jonas> but I still have no idea how such a puzzle would look like, and how possible it is
20:20:38 <zzo38> It could be done with M:tG too, I suppose.
20:21:08 <b_jonas> besides, there's only like twelve thousand different M:tG cards or so
20:21:35 <zzo38> Still, only the cards mentioned in the puzzle (plus basic energy/basic lands) are allowed.
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20:23:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: so how would such a puzzle work?
20:24:32 <zzo38> Do you know the chess puzzle that shows you position of all pieces on the board (but doesn't tell you whose turn it is), and then asks you, on which squares did captures occur?
20:24:52 <b_jonas> or at least very similar ones
20:25:04 <b_jonas> I don't like solving those kinds of puzzles
20:25:13 <b_jonas> they don't really resonate with me
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20:25:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GeorgeEpicGen]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40579 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+274) Created page with "'''Oh hai!''' I'm George, this is my little page that I will probably spend 10 minutes on and then never come back to. ==My Languages== Below is a list of all of my language..."
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20:27:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40580 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+450) Created page with "ArrayZ is a BrainFu*k-derived esoteric programming language created by [[esolangs.org/wiki/User:GeorgeEpicGen|User:GeorgeEpicGen]] in 2014. It was created over the course of t..."
20:30:43 <AndoDaan_> "Below is a list of all of my languages. I was 15 when I made these"
20:30:51 <AndoDaan_> "ArrayZ is a BrainFu*k-derived esoteric programming language created by User:GeorgeEpicGen in 2014."
20:32:32 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan.
20:37:33 <elliott_> weird to think we could easily have languages from people born in the 2000s on the wiki
20:40:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40581&oldid=40580 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+1147)
20:41:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40582&oldid=40581 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+24)
20:42:30 <Taneb> elliott_, I was born in the 2010w
20:45:38 <Taneb> (despite the fact that I first appeared here in I think 2011)
20:45:43 <fizzie> There's a broken user-page link in the ArrayZ page.
20:46:35 <fizzie> Taneb: 2010-09-06 <Taneb> Hello! <Taneb> I'm kinda new to this
20:46:58 <Taneb> fizzie, that logs scares me a bit
20:47:08 <Taneb> Because I'm not in the logs again for a while after that
20:48:02 <shachaf> oh no i found a wikipedia error
20:52:57 * oerjan gently polishes his swatter
20:55:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40583&oldid=40582 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+1064)
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21:01:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40584&oldid=40583 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+943) /* Hello, world! */
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21:27:19 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ <mroman_> The hackage-story with "corrupt acid-state logs" made me really sceptical of using acid-state in future projects <-- afaiu it wasn't _really_ corrupted, the recovery just didn't know how to ignore the junk at the end of the log from the aborted transaction
21:30:06 <elliott_> huh, doesn't it write atomically?
21:30:25 <oerjan> it does, but the disk ran out of room
21:32:46 <oerjan> i assume they've fixed that in one way or the other
21:42:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/ௌ: No such file or directory
21:42:39 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/௵: No such file or directory
21:43:31 <oerjan> it seems like my reverts were successful, i guess boily just didn't notice
21:44:37 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> I always could include these, apply a nuclearevert, then wait for people to further mangle the poor db. <-- to clarify, i already had nucleareverted
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21:57:36 <Sgeo> I got a personalized email from a recruiter, but they probably know my online name so a bit worried about talking about it here
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22:48:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 10m 43s ago: are you referring to anything other than what i reverted because it was meaningless junk submitted outside the channel?
22:48:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 3m 25s ago: <boily> I always could include these, apply a nuclearevert, then wait for people to further mangle the poor db. <-- to clarify, i already had nucleareverted
22:48:37 <boily> @tell oerjan thanks for the irradiation!
22:56:23 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ binpipes \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ crunchfuck \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gcccomp \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
22:56:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
22:57:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
22:57:09 <HackEgo> int main () { printf("hm"); }
22:57:22 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
22:57:53 <shachaf> `gcc -o /tmp/hello hello.c && /tmp/hello
22:57:53 <HackEgo> gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
22:58:00 <shachaf> `` gcc -o /tmp/hello hello.c && /tmp/hello
22:58:37 <LordCreepity> is that like the raw char data for it or something?
22:59:08 <shachaf> The character sheet, as it were.
23:00:24 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ echo >>"$2" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) {\nint main(void) { printf("Calling main from itself not supported.\n"); exit(1); }\n' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \
23:00:32 <shachaf> That program is also way too long. What is it doing?
23:00:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/gcccomp: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/gcccomp: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:00:59 <shachaf> LordCreepity: Better to explore with /msg HackEgo once you go past a few lines (unless you're showing something in the channel).
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23:07:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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00:21:20 <Bike> `run gcc -Wall hello.c
00:21:22 <HackEgo> hello.c:1:12: warning: ‘main’ is usually a function [-Wmain]
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00:44:54 <shachaf> why does english not even have a singular of clothes
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01:16:53 <mahem1> Hey all, speaking about befunge here. Is there any fast way to do advanced stack manipulations. For instance 'right rotating' a LIFO stack (the first value becomes the third, third, become second, second becomes first)
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01:18:57 <mahem1> 98. Although, not entirely sure of the difference between them.
01:19:48 <lifthrasiir> in 93 you have almost no way to directly or indirectly access the stack element past second-to-the-top
01:21:34 <mahem1> Excluding sets and puts? Or does 93 not have those?
01:22:09 <mahem1> ok, and in 98 what commands let you do that?
01:22:10 <lifthrasiir> of course, you are obviously limited in 80*25 bytes then
01:22:41 <lifthrasiir> afaik there is no direct command, but you can combine stack stack ops to get the similar effect, I think
01:25:06 <mahem1> I've tried to work out how to use the command seen here 9http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge) paste the second, but I can't seem to .
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01:30:24 <lifthrasiir> mahem1: the Wikipedia article exclusively discusses Befunge-93 (which is far smaller language than Funge-98), you should look at the "official Funge-98 specification" in the external links.
01:30:45 <lifthrasiir> of course, unless you want to constrain yourself to Befunge-93
01:35:32 <mahem1> lifthrasiir, Dang, buh, I've been stuck in a small little world... Thanks for setting me free from the small world of befunge93!
01:36:12 <lifthrasiir> the constraint is often a source of creativity though ;)
01:39:26 <mahem1> True, it's quite fun and intriguing actually. But I feel like I am cheating when I just use gets and puts as variables with mostly an empty stack...
01:40:06 <AndoDaan> just lying there, under the ip's feet.
01:40:43 <mahem1> Hmmmm, no goto in Funge98
01:41:01 <mahem1> Yeah, we all do, but then it kills the challenge.
01:41:21 <AndoDaan> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html best '98 interpreter, has most of the fingerprints (modules)
01:41:57 <mahem1> It's fun trying to figure out when to duplicate the top value for use way later in your program.
01:43:25 <AndoDaan> I doubt it, lifthrasiir. but idk.
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01:44:32 <AndoDaan> kinda lost my appetite for befunge when i started golfing. all that creativity doesn't help with competetiveness.
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02:03:50 <elliott_> I don't think CCBI is very in-development, either.
02:06:15 <AndoDaan> funge's best days are behind him i'm afraid.
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02:52:54 <mahem1> Hmmm, how do I get this 3rd dimension working...
02:53:18 <AndoDaan> are you using the windows' binary?
03:00:18 <mahem1> I dunno I got my interpretter from here. https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/blob/master/src/bef.c
03:02:36 <AndoDaan> I don't think '98 is implemented in that one.
03:04:01 <Bicyclidine> is there any particular reason for a finite number of dimensions
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03:04:43 <AndoDaan> idk hilbert space just seems.... tooo big.
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03:05:24 <Bicyclidine> i'm just saying, as long as you're adding a whole dimension, might as well go for broke.
03:06:52 <AndoDaan> yeah, but after 3... maybe 4, it's just useless trying to visualize. and for me, personally, i'm useless without visualization.
03:06:57 <Bicyclidine> looks like funge 98 is generic anyway? you could have a unary "turn in this direction" operator in addition to the usual 0ary ones, so you wouldn't even need infinite opcodes
03:08:00 <Bicyclidine> have you ever played nethack or something? they do three dee just by successive slices of 2D, and it works fine since the topology is discrete. shouldn't be too hard in n dimensions
03:09:28 <AndoDaan> hmm, i've been looking a nethack recently. and i couldn't make out if it was a topdown view, or side on.
03:10:00 <mahem1> Whoops that is what I am using now. But I meant in funge98.
03:10:17 <Bicyclidine> basically i just mean each floor is a flat surface, and the dungeon as a whole is just a bunch of those taped together
03:10:18 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: it already has instructions to set delta
03:10:26 <elliott_> so you can do arbitrary dimensions, the only thing you need to specify is file encoding really
03:10:43 <elliott_> it'd need tweaks for infinite dimensions though.
03:10:50 <mahem1> Like what code is excuted in the 3rd dimension. How do you write it? . Or do I need to let it write it's own code in 3d?
03:11:07 <elliott_> ^L increases z and resets x and y, basically
03:11:26 <AndoDaan> don't we have a befunge '98 bot here?
03:11:28 <Bicyclidine> i mean how would you describe the 3d space of a program
03:11:32 <fungot> Bicyclidine: we were at this arcade. do you remember when i gave you five hundred bucks, and told you to upgrade my computer for doom 3?
03:11:44 <elliott_> I'm talking about the file format
03:11:49 <elliott_> you use ^L to separate 3D slices, basically
03:12:00 <Bicyclidine> i thought you meant those were instructions
03:12:22 <Bicyclidine> catseye mentions other topologies so that's uh, something
03:12:53 <Bicyclidine> continuity sounds like it would be annoying.
03:14:48 <Bicyclidine> with a certain number of dimensions having instructions might be redundant. you only need like... i think seven continuous dimensions to run a UTC
03:15:58 * mahem1 is still confused on how to use l and h...
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03:17:26 <Bicyclidine> easy to find on github though i guess, if that's what this is
03:17:38 <AndoDaan> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
03:19:14 <Bicyclidine> the delta function uses absolute space! how am i supposed to generalize this to a kerr-newman metric
03:19:39 <mahem1> All the spec really seems to say is.
03:19:41 <mahem1> The h "Go High" instruction causes the IP to travel up (delta <- (0,0,1)); the l "Go Low" instruction causes the IP to travel down (delta <- (0,0,-1)). These instructions are not available in Unefunge or Befunge.
03:20:20 <Bicyclidine> So you're wondering if that's a one time move or a more permanent change like <> etc?
03:20:44 <mahem1> Permanant change I would assumen, cause it's changing the delta.
03:21:00 <mahem1> But I am askign what code does it go and excute.
03:21:06 <mahem1> Cause you only write code in 2d
03:21:18 <Bicyclidine> elliott_ said you specify that with some ^L thing
03:21:31 <Bicyclidine> otherwise i guess it's whatever's in fungeland by default, which is probably nops?
03:21:36 <elliott_> the quadium.net spec is out of date
03:21:51 <mahem1> I don't have a 3d text editor. :P
03:21:52 <elliott_> use https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown
03:22:04 <mahem1> What's an example of using ^L?
03:22:05 <elliott_> anyway, I don't get the confusion
03:22:31 <Bicyclidine> the internal links are broken on the github, fuckin a
03:22:46 <elliott_> "In Trefunge-98, the Form Feed (12) character increments the z coordinate and resets the x and y coordinates to zero."
03:22:51 <elliott_> I guess you might need to omit the newlines around the ^L there.
03:23:07 <elliott_> all this is just about interpreting source files; the ^Ls don't exist in fungespace or anything.
03:23:15 <elliott_> just like the newlines don't, for 2d funge
03:23:43 <Bicyclidine> i have no idea what this lahey space thing is talking about
03:23:54 <mahem1> I see. Pretty crazy stuff. Lemme try..
03:24:05 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: it's just talking about how wrapping works.
03:24:21 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: since the space is infinite, but if you have e.g. "foobar" then it runs f, o, o, ..., a, r, f, o, o, ...
03:24:31 <elliott_> rather than running f, o, o, b, a, r and then running spaces (which just get skipped) forever
03:25:13 <elliott_> you can think of it as just being a finite wrapping space that expands as you place stuff outside the boundaries
03:25:18 <elliott_> but that doesn't quite specify all the behaviour.
03:25:32 <elliott_> lahey space is just the overly-fancy "mathematical" model of the space being used.
03:25:47 <Bicyclidine> i don't understand how this is distinct from a torus i admit
03:26:39 <elliott_> it's not a fixed, wrapping size, it's both infinitely large and wrapping.
03:26:54 <elliott_> when you wrap you go over an /infinite/ amount of space, conceptually
03:26:55 <Bicyclidine> so a resizeable torus, practically speaking
03:27:10 <elliott_> yeah, but that's not an actual specification of the space. :p
03:27:15 <elliott_> and there are edge-cases in terms of how you do that resizing.
03:27:31 <elliott_> note that this is relevant in cases like foo"bar
03:27:45 <Bicyclidine> i've been reading about strange attractors for hours so everything looks like topological garbage
03:27:49 <elliott_> that runs f, o, o, and then pushes I think "bar foo" to the stack
03:27:56 <elliott_> (by which I mean, it pushes those ascii values)
03:28:10 <elliott_> in stringmode, consecutive spaces get collapsed, like in HTML
03:28:16 <elliott_> it's just collapsing aleph_null of them :p
03:28:23 <Bicyclidine> i bet you could write some really horrid programs that way
03:28:36 <Bicyclidine> though i guess befunge is probably good for that in general
03:29:56 <Bicyclidine> maybe i should like... actually write a program.
03:32:25 <Bicyclidine> does esolang have any that are properly lorentz invariant
03:35:33 <Bicyclidine> do you think running a bunch of semiconductors counts as a programming languages
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03:54:29 <Bicyclidine> You only need two registers for TC, right? what's the instruction set like again
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04:11:46 <zzo38> I tried to figure out the decks of Pokemon Card GB2 cards only, assuming all random stuff to your benefit and your opponent is cooperating but nobody can concede, how to win with the largest number of cards in your draw pile at the end.
04:12:46 <zzo38> I came up with: Your cards = 1x GAMBLER, 1x any basic pokemon card. Opponents cards = 1x MEOWTH [Lv.14], 3x PORYGON [Lv.12], 2x RATTATA [Lv.9], 1x RECYCLE ENERGY, 4x IMAKUNI?, 1x ITEMFINDER.
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04:14:06 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
04:14:47 <Bicyclidine> "alternate state transition" is basically a jump right
04:14:52 <AndoDaan> it's been a while since i've played... the gambler does it?
04:15:09 <Bicyclidine> god it must be a pain in the ass to write anything
04:15:24 <zzo38> AndoDaan: GAMBLER card means: Shuffle all cards from your hand into your draw pile. Toss a coin. If heads, draw eight cards; if tails, draw one card.
04:16:16 <AndoDaan> how many cards do i have in my hand on average?
04:16:54 <zzo38> You start with seven cards, and then draw one card on the beginning of each turn (if you cannot, you lose).
04:17:27 <AndoDaan> oh wait... 8-> and maybe eight back.
04:17:48 <Bicyclidine> i'm imagining how to compile from brainfuck and, seriously, pain in the ass
04:21:21 <zzo38> Someone told me that "while(setjmp(buf));" is like resumable exceptions. Does resumable exceptions have anything to do with the RESUME command in BASIC? I can see some similarity.
04:22:57 <Bicyclidine> anyway i guess i'm pretty sure that trefunge with only <>^vlh is tc.
04:24:06 <Bicyclidine> you use your position in x as reg1, position in y as reg2, and position in z as the ip. the program is fixed so it should be okay
04:24:30 <elliott_> how do you branch on any of those registers
04:25:08 <Bicyclidine> you position an h in the appropriate place on the zero of the appropriate axis
04:25:47 <Bicyclidine> you can only branch to constant instructions, so you know all the branches when you're setting up fungespace, and there's a finite number, so you can space things out appropriately
04:27:35 <Bicyclidine> i think i'll just believe minsky that two registers is TC and that'll be that
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04:28:30 <Bicyclidine> anyway there must be some number of dimensions it works for, i don't think discretizing the space ought to make physics totally impossible and obviously with a given number of continuous dimensions you only need to move cos phase fuckin space
04:30:21 <Bicyclidine> i guess the problem is that actually finding a program written in a minsky machine is like... why would you do that
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04:34:45 <quintopia> Bicyclidine: there's one linked to from the Etre page
04:35:39 <Bicyclidine> so there is! let me see if i can even understand this syntax
04:35:43 <quintopia> Bicyclidine: also, wouldn't it be easier to simulate Collatz functions in trefunge with those commands?
04:36:39 <quintopia> oh i thought you just wanted to prove that subset TC
04:37:16 <Bicyclidine> well, i'm thinking of this in the context of strange attractors. more proofs the merrier i guess
04:38:58 <Bicyclidine> e.g. i think reducing it to two dimensions would /not/ be TC, but i can't prove that off the top of my head
04:39:24 <Bicyclidine> and if i said "by the poincare-bendixson theorem" people would just be confused
04:46:30 <Bicyclidine> i guess the initial condition of fungespace has to be infinitely large, though repetitive. oh well
04:47:49 <Bicyclidine> should i put it on the funge talk page or what
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05:05:47 <Bicyclidine> oh durr the paper i was thinking of is only three dimensional :x
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05:34:36 <Sgeo> If a recruiter is blatantly targetting me personally, but suggests they want to talk today or tomorrow, is it ok to hold off a bit? I mean, I'm the one in demand
05:38:22 <AndoDaan> Just ask yourself "would a stupid person hold off a bit?" And if the answr is "no" then yes.
05:41:55 * Sgeo mutters something about reversed stupidity, and also not being smart enough to model a stupid person
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05:51:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40585&oldid=40244 * 69.166.47.145 * (+4051) hot singles in fungot's area
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06:00:16 <fizzie> What, the recent changes feed? It's very pushy.
06:01:07 <Bicyclidine> i know "somebody" "hypothetically" "named" "monotone" with a similar irc widget that is much slower, is all
06:04:52 <fizzie> It's built on the MediaWiki UDP recent changes feed, plus a socat-based shell oneliner to mangle the message into raw IRC and write it to the Unix domain socket that HackEgo accepts extra stuff on.
06:05:18 <Bicyclidine> the other one is, uh, dokuwiki i think. maybe dokuwiki sucks
06:05:40 <fizzie> Maybe it's based on polling, then.
06:13:37 <b_jonas> UDP recent changes feed? wtf, who invents such a thing
06:14:08 <Bicyclidine> people who need up to the millisecond updates on my half baked phase constructions at midnight
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06:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40586&oldid=40409 * Rdebath * (+7212) Add tests and interpreters (plus upgrades)
06:27:09 <fizzie> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds
06:28:15 <fizzie> It can do UDP and Redis Pub/Sub, and the message itself can be the above (with IRC color codes and all) or a JSON object.
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06:40:14 * atehwa acknowledges self-Finnishness @ mroman_
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07:24:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 57m 35s ago: <mroman_> The hackage-story with "corrupt acid-state logs" made me really sceptical of using acid-state in future projects <-- afaiu it wasn't _really_ corrupted, the recovery just didn't know how to ignore the junk at the end of the log from the aborted transaction
07:25:28 <mroman_> @ask oerjan Can you do backups of acid-state databases?
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08:23:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40587&oldid=40572 * Keymaker * (+177) Reply.
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08:36:02 <AndoDaan> Bring back The Esotric Awards!
08:39:13 <AndoDaan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_Awards
08:41:56 <AndoDaan> your burlesque would be a sho'win.
08:42:07 <AndoDaan> i don't know how to spell expressions.
08:43:37 <fizzie> I remember talk about the Essies, but nothing about the competitions themselves.
08:44:05 <fizzie> "It is not known if any entries were submitted. It is likewise not known if a winner was picked."
08:44:18 <AndoDaan> seems like that would be the most exciting bit.
08:46:46 <mroman_> if the award ceremony is in finnland
09:03:29 <fizzie> Grumble frumble sox FAIL formats: can't open input file `data/adults/test/man/gp/15z8973a.wav': sph: unsupported coding `pcm,embedded-shorten-v2.00'
09:03:51 <fizzie> I don't quite see why all these corpora go for the NIST SPHERE + Shorten format.
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09:09:57 <oerjan> holy shit a nobel to trondheim
09:10:47 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 22m 9s ago: thanks for the irradiation!
09:10:47 <lambdabot> mroman_ asked 1h 45m 18s ago: Can you do backups of acid-state databases?
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09:13:09 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ They did nightly backups. It was never a matter of losing more than that. But if they had understood in time that it was just a single partially written transaction, they could have restored everything up to that as well.
09:14:42 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ *up to the last moment, as the system _did_ shut down for safety when it happened.
09:21:14 <mroman_> but how do you do backups of that?
09:21:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8m 12s ago: They did nightly backups. It was never a matter of losing more than that. But if they had understood in time that it was just a single partially written transaction, they could have restored everything up to that as well.
09:21:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6m 39s ago: *up to the last moment, as the system _did_ shut down for safety when it happened.
09:21:50 <mroman_> you'd have to stop the application
09:21:54 <mroman_> then copy the acid-state folder?
09:22:01 <oerjan> it's possible they do? i don't know.
09:22:03 <mroman_> then start the application
09:22:17 <mroman_> I mean... you don't know when acid-state will write to those files
09:22:26 <mroman_> so copying the files mid-write is probably not a good idea
09:26:41 <oerjan> i don't know how this works. ask someone who does.
09:27:28 <oerjan> i want the neighbors' dog to die so much.
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09:28:19 <oerjan> it has this completely eerie ability to start barking the moment i'm trying to concentrate.
09:28:55 <oerjan> and then to keep silent enough of the rest of the time that i don't feel i can complain too much.
09:29:10 <oerjan> (although today is starting to push it.)
09:34:57 <oerjan> mroman_: look at this discussion http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/xs0t2/acidstate_with_yesod/c5p8af7
09:40:31 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ binpipes \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ crunchfuck \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gcccomp \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
09:42:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/binpipes
09:43:04 <HackEgo> [U+22D6 LESS-THAN WITH DOT]
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09:45:28 <oerjan> i think that was put there by someone who doesn't understand unixy directories.
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09:46:45 <oerjan> `` rm binpipes moop.txt
09:46:52 <mroman_> " Or do you expect very expensive haskell developers spend the rest of their lives creating hundreds of customized reports ?"
09:46:53 <fizzie> It's also not terribly useful over IRC.
09:46:59 <mroman_> haskell developers are expensive?
09:47:06 <oerjan> i didn't think so either
09:47:31 <oerjan> mroman_: i think that vagif guy may be _ever_ so slightly trolly on occasion.
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09:48:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/crunchfuck
09:48:31 <mroman_> oerjan: He's not completely wrong though
09:48:40 <int-e> oerjan: I think you cheated on hello hello world, 84 looks impossible ;-)
09:48:49 <mroman_> Interfacing with an acid-state database pretty much relies on you writing some export-my-data-service
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09:49:31 <oerjan> int-e: nope, it's completely non-cheating
09:50:33 <int-e> oerjan: have you seen my terrible prime solution? using or[] and a prime test that works for numbers up to 340 (as the other two 61 character solutions do) is comparatively sane.
09:50:57 <oerjan> oh it's finished? hadn't checked.
09:51:11 <int-e> > (mod(2^341-2)341,mod 341 11)
09:51:56 <mroman_> the other drawback is you can't use acid-state with large databases on low-memory devices
09:52:19 <oerjan> int-e: so i may still have the shortest _non_-cheating solution on that? :P
09:52:33 <oerjan> even if it's the longest in the list.
09:52:44 <int-e> oerjan: I think so, yes.
09:53:37 <fizzie> I uploaded my long Forth hello-hello-world because nobody else seemed to be doing Forth, seems that's still true.
09:54:18 <b_jonas> hmm, this hello world task again, which task is this?
09:54:42 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world
09:56:00 <b_jonas> but wasn't that about ternary? how does prime testing come into this/
09:56:13 <mroman_> fizzie: the trick to get a huge amount of points on anagol is to submit an incredibly large program in a language nobody has yet submitted something just short before deadline
09:56:14 <int-e> oerjan: however: main=mapM print[z+1|z<-[0..252],p(z+2)||p z];p n=all((>0).mod n)[2..n-1]
09:56:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: no that's http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?A045718
09:56:22 <mroman_> then you submit your real solution just right after the deadline
09:57:01 <mroman_> your solution is then compared to the best solution before the deadline (i.e. your incredibly large program)
09:57:10 <mroman_> and receives points depending on how much shorter it is
09:57:18 <mroman_> which means you can get more than 10k points
09:57:25 <int-e> oerjan: and the or[] trick is applicable as well: main=mapM print[z+1|z<-[0..252],or[all((>0).mod n)[2..n-1]|n<-[z+2,z]]]
09:57:39 <b_jonas> I should try that. I can generate long programs in strange languages for some tasks.
09:58:59 <oerjan> > length "main=mapM print[z+1|z<-[0..252],p(z+2)||p z];p n=all((>0).mod n)[2..n-1]"
09:59:05 <int-e> oerjan: and another character: main=mapM print[z|z<-[1..252],or[all((>0).mod(n+1))[2..n]|n<-[z,z-2]]]
09:59:19 <int-e> > length "main=mapM print[z|z<-[1..252],or[all((>0).mod(n+1))[2..n]|n<-[z,z-2]]]"
10:00:55 <oerjan> i also had a version using or instead of any
10:01:03 <oerjan> was the same length, though.
10:01:46 <oerjan> actually it was using _both_ or and and.
10:02:12 <oerjan> l=[2..255];main=mapM print[z|z<-1:l,or[and[x*y-z/=s|x<-l,y<-l]|s<-[-1,1]]]
10:02:30 <int-e> (I submitted the 70 characters one)
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10:04:43 <fizzie> I have a 20-character Burlesque A006520 that runs in 1.1 seconds on my own computer, but is too slow for anagolf. :/
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10:06:55 <oerjan> i guess this mod(2^y-2)y<1 trick is something well-known for golfing.
10:07:49 <int-e> I discovered it myself, but it appears in several publicly visible entries by henkma
10:08:02 <mroman_> fizzie: did you compile with -O3?
10:08:33 <int-e> (well, "discover" is perhaps too strong, since I have read a bit about pseudoprimes before)
10:09:06 <mroman_> also what's ghc's default for -O?
10:09:46 <mroman_> according to github shinh didn't compile it with -O3
10:10:19 <int-e> myname: it's a primality test that works up to 340
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10:12:43 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..] in p
10:12:45 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
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10:13:45 <mroman_> 1024 1024?*ro)fCL[ runs in 1.7s on my machine
10:13:48 <blsqbot> {2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101}
10:13:54 <mroman_> on anagol it runs at least 3.5s but then runs out of stack space
10:16:51 <mroman_> with -O0 on my machine it takes 3.5s to run
10:17:08 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p) in c
10:17:10 <lambdabot> [4,6,8,9,10,12,14,15,16,18,20,21,22,24,25,26,27,28,30,32,33,34,35,36,38,39,4...
10:17:45 <fizzie> mroman_: I did what your README.md suggested, so probably.
10:17:53 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p); k=2 in find(\y -> mod(k^y-k)y<1)c
10:18:01 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p); k=3 in find(\y -> mod(k^y-k)y<1)c
10:18:29 <int-e> oerjan: it's hard to outperform the 2
10:18:44 <int-e> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p); k=10103 in find(\y -> mod(k^y-k)y<1)c
10:19:02 <oerjan> i guess it's the shortest for its performance, then
10:19:09 <mroman_> 1024 1024?*ro{fC++J?*}m[++ is 30s with -O0 and 19s with -O3 :)
10:19:26 <int-e> oerjan: 561 is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmichael_number, so that's the best possible.
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10:20:19 <int-e> (for this Fermat style primality test)
10:20:29 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's a nice trick, though I think in some languages a slow trial division test might be shorter.
10:21:13 <b_jonas> like, there's that crazy regex backreference test that works in perl and some other languages
10:21:49 <b_jonas> that's like eww but for such small numbers it should work, and you might be able to embed the plus minus one into the regex
10:22:05 <b_jonas> see http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510925
10:22:44 <mroman_> ('1' x shift) !~ /^(11+)\1+$/
10:22:49 <mroman_> what's the upper bound for that test?
10:24:59 <int-e> none, it's perfect
10:25:13 <int-e> it'll be slow for large numbers though
10:26:32 <mroman_> is that a unicode operator?
10:28:05 <mroman_> also... does that use base1 numbers?
10:28:08 <int-e> or latter, if you like ;-)
10:28:33 <mroman_> I have no idea how that code works
10:28:39 <mroman_> (also I don't know ANY perl)
10:28:42 <int-e> (11+) <-- match 2 or more 1s. \1+ <- match what the () matched, one or more times
10:29:07 <int-e> so you match (1+n)(1+m) 1s, where n,m>1
10:29:15 <int-e> a string of 1 of composite length
10:29:37 <mroman_> but '1' x shift converts to base1?
10:29:42 <int-e> oh and note that the test fails for 0 and 1.
10:30:15 <int-e> (that is, 0 and 1 are primes according to that test)
10:31:10 <mroman_> you can divide primes by itself and 1
10:31:21 <mroman_> you can divide 0 only by 1 but not by itself
10:31:36 <mroman_> so it's even primier then every other prime
10:31:39 <int-e> you can divide 0 by any natural number except 0
10:32:25 <AndoDaan> you can divide anything by anything
10:32:59 <int-e> 0 is the maximum of the divisibility relation; 1 is the minimum, and primes are the successors of 1.
10:33:02 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
10:33:22 <blsqbot> {"1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1"}
10:33:33 <AndoDaan> what does it try and calculate?
10:33:47 <b_jonas> mroman_: the x is string replication operator
10:34:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, base 1 numbers, but as you need only small numbers it should be fine
10:34:27 <int-e> `` perl -e 'print"ha"x10'
10:34:46 <lambdabot> ‘BSC.inits’ (imported from Data.ByteString.Char8),
10:34:46 <lambdabot> ‘BSLC.inits’ (imported from Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8),
10:35:08 <b_jonas> as for limits, I _think_ on a fast machine it might fail when you go over around 65536, especially on older perls, because the repetition operators of perl regexen used to have some bugs regarding repetitions more than that,
10:35:21 <mroman_> AndoDaan: technically digits in Data.Digits is broken for base = 1
10:35:50 <b_jonas> but you'll probably run out of time before that.
10:36:15 <mroman_> so it's not my fault B! doesn't work for 1
10:36:32 <b_jonas> as in, if any of those bugs remain, p5p will fix those bugs and you will install perl and get faster hardware before you have a chance to finish that statement for such a large number where it fails.
10:36:45 <mroman_> although I should add an exception for bs 1
10:36:49 <b_jonas> I think it probably won't fail at all, at least under 4G.
10:37:09 <int-e> > showIntAtBase 3 intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:22 <mroman_> > showIntAtBase 1 intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:24 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Numeric.showIntAtBase: applied to unsupported base 1
10:37:32 <oerjan> b_jonas: i remember having to do tricks to get my BCT interpreter in /// under that limit for the slashes.pl interpreter
10:37:35 <b_jonas> the advantage of this regex is that you can encod ethe plus or minus one cheaply: you just prefix two chars to the string and match zero or two chars in the beginning
10:37:48 <mroman_> > showIntAtBase -1 intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:50 <lambdabot> ((GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Char)
10:37:53 <mroman_> > showIntAtBase (-2) intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:55 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Numeric.showIntAtBase: applied to unsupported base -2
10:38:00 <AndoDaan> i'm working on a /// interpreter right now.
10:38:14 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
10:38:26 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 13):
10:38:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean, that limit does come up in pracitcal programs, like in matching long double-quoted strings with escapes and stuff,
10:39:10 <HackEgo> dc: output base must be a number greater than 1 \ 1000
10:39:18 <fizzie> `forth : x 3 base ! 1000 . ; x
10:39:22 <fizzie> `forth : x 1 base ! 1000 . ; x
10:39:22 <HackEgo> \ *OS command line*: \ uncaught exception: Pictured numeric ouput string overflow
10:39:49 <int-e> picturesque overlow?
10:40:50 <fizzie> Curiously enough, setting base doesn't affect interpreted mode.
10:40:56 <fizzie> `forth 3 base ! 1000 .
10:41:00 <oerjan> AndoDaan: you should test my BCT interpreter on it then :)
10:42:40 <AndoDaan> i tried something like that a month or two ago, it was fun.
10:43:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: a /// substitution command is essentially just two long //- quoted escaped strings, so that's exactly the use case
10:43:56 <oerjan> int-e: bitwise, canonically
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10:46:06 <int-e> ("hmm" = "if you say so, but I think 'binary' sounds better, now how the hell do I unlearn that?")
10:49:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah, that makes sense
10:50:45 * oerjan hands int-e the saucepan for repeated self-application to head hth ===\__/
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11:50:58 <b_jonas> oh argh! you can't just add (11)? to the beginning of the regex, because the regex matches composite numbers, not primes
11:51:04 <b_jonas> you need a few extra characters
11:58:33 <b_jonas> how do command-line switches for perl work on the anagol server?
11:59:10 <oerjan> 236 is a bit long for a golf maybe, but it feels nifty anyway
12:00:11 <b_jonas> `perl -le (1 .1x$_)=~/^(11)?(?!(11+)\2+$)/&&print for 1..252
12:00:12 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 6 \ 8 \ 10 \ 12 \ 14 \ 16 \ 18 \ 20 \ 22 \ 24 \ 28 \ 30 \ 32 \ 36 \ 38 \ 40 \ 42 \ 44 \ 46 \ 48 \ 52 \ 54 \ 58 \ 60 \ 62 \ 66 \ 68 \ 70 \ 72 \ 74 \ 78 \ 80 \ 82 \ 84 \ 88 \ 90 \ 96 \ 98 \ 100 \ 102 \ 104 \ 106 \ 108 \ 110 \ 112 \ 114 \ 126 \ 128 \ 130 \ 132 \ 136 \ 138 \ 140 \ 148 \ 150 \ 152 \ 156 \ 158 \ 162 \ 164 \ 166 \ 168 \ 17
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12:30:54 <oerjan> 234, i realized one of my definitions wasn't actually saving space, despite being used four times
12:41:57 <oerjan> (those two last came from changing some tuples to lists)
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13:13:56 <fizzie> Nobody else seems very interested about count-the-overlap.
13:14:28 <AndoDaan> yep, i did better with pocketses
13:15:00 <AndoDaan> no big loss, it's not like i spent a whole morning making it...
13:15:39 <fizzie> Oh, there's a fancy performance checker too; my too slow 20-byte solution runs in 3.379202s there.
13:20:02 <oerjan> fizzie: i think maybe there's too much i/o noise in it? at least that takes most of my code.
13:20:20 <fizzie> For the A006520, I mean.
13:20:37 <fizzie> I don't have a 20-byte overlap thing.
13:21:34 <AndoDaan> thanks for giving it a go, oerjan
13:47:18 <oerjan> i found a way to shorten the outputting
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14:25:18 <mroman_> couldn't you have used just four integers
14:25:25 <mroman_> for the input format or something
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14:30:10 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd
14:30:10 <blsqbot> {"ax" "1" "ay" "1" "aw" "1" "ah" "1" "bx" "1" "by" "1" "bw" "1" "bh" "1" "cx" "1
14:30:19 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ri
14:30:19 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
14:30:25 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:an
14:30:25 <blsqbot> {"ax" "1" "ay" "1" "aw" "1" "ah" "1" "bx" "1" "by" "1" "bw" "1" "bh" "1" "cx" "1
14:30:29 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad
14:30:29 <blsqbot> {"1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1"}
14:30:44 <AndoDaan> idk i wanted to explain it well. over did the info
14:30:46 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad)ri4co
14:30:46 <blsqbot> {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}}
14:31:08 <AndoDaan> well, presentation of the info
14:31:59 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad)ri4co3CB
14:31:59 <blsqbot> {{{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1
14:32:05 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad)ri4co3cb
14:32:05 <blsqbot> {{{1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}}
14:32:11 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "aa" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bb" "bc" "ca" "cb" "cc" "aaa" "aab" "aac" "aba
14:33:17 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb" "abc" "acb" "bac" "bca" "cab" "cba"}
14:33:24 <mroman_> and then only the sorted ones
14:33:27 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:33:44 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "aa" "ab" "ac" "bb" "bc" "cc" "aaa" "aab" "aac" "abb" "abc" "acc" "
14:33:56 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:34:09 <AndoDaan> I totally see now what a drag this part of it is.
14:34:24 <AndoDaan> has nothing to do with the core idea.
14:34:47 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "bc" "abc"}
14:35:36 <blsqbot> {"abc" "bac" "cba" "bca" "cab" "acb"}
14:35:41 <blsqbot> {"" "a" "b" "ab" "c" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:36:22 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments!
14:36:27 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb" "aab" "aac" "aba" "abb" "abc" "aca" "acb" "acc" "
14:36:39 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb" "abc" "acb" "bac" "bca" "cab" "cba"}
14:36:57 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb{{U_}{so}m&}f[
14:36:58 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:37:16 <mroman_> but that's just su I guess
14:37:51 <blsqbot> {"A" "D" "a" "d" "n" "o" "An" "Da" "aa" "an" "do" "nd" "oD" "And" "Daa" "aan" "d
14:38:05 <blsqbot> {"c" "d" "l" "o" "co" "ld" "ol" "col" "old" "cold"}
14:38:28 <AndoDaan> hmm, a burlesque command that finds the products as it were of single commands
14:39:01 <blsqbot> {"aa" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bb" "bc" "ca" "cb" "cc"}
14:39:13 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb"}
14:39:23 <mroman_> ^- that's good for matches
14:39:39 <mroman_> !blsq {"Manchester" "Bayern" "Berlin"}Jcp:U_
14:39:39 <blsqbot> {{"Manchester" "Bayern"} {"Manchester" "Berlin"} {"Bayern" "Manchester"} {"Bayer
14:39:49 <mroman_> gives you the list of all matches these teams have to play
14:40:35 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb"}
14:41:03 <mroman_> everyone has played with everybody
14:41:10 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ad" "bc" "bd" "cd"}
14:41:39 <AndoDaan> now append random scores to each
14:42:12 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 52co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:42:25 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:42:25 <blsqbot> {{{5 5} "ab"} {{3 0} "ac"} {{4 1} "ad"} {{3 1} "bc"} {{1 0} "bd"} {{5 4} "cd"}}
14:42:57 <mroman_> I gues know you want to know the winner of this
14:43:21 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[)z[
14:43:21 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (z[) Invalid arguments! {{5 5} "ab"} ERROR: Burlesque: (z[) I
14:43:29 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^z[}m[
14:43:29 <blsqbot> {{{'a 5} {'b 5}} {{'a 3} {'c 0}} {{'a 4} {'d 1}} {{'b 3} {'c 1}} {{'b 1} {'d 0}}
14:43:58 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^}m[
14:43:58 <blsqbot> {{5 5} "ab" {3 0} "ac" {4 1} "ad" {3 1} "bc" {1 0} "bd" {5 4} "cd"}
14:44:08 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^>]}m[
14:44:08 <blsqbot> {5 "ab" 3 "ac" 4 "ad" 3 "bc" 1 "bd" 5 "cd"}
14:44:17 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi}m[
14:44:17 <blsqbot> {0 "ab" 0 "ac" 0 "ad" 0 "bc" 0 "bd" 0 "cd"}
14:44:30 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[
14:44:33 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:44:57 <mroman_> a won three times, b won two times and c won 1 time
14:45:22 <mroman_> in case of a draw somebody wins
14:45:48 <mroman_> the one who plays in his home stadion wins in case of a draw
14:45:56 <mroman_> !blsq 10 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:46:08 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:46:09 <blsqbot> {{3 'a} {1 'd} {1 'c} {1 'b}}
14:46:48 <mroman_> King2218: Scoring in Burlesque
14:47:22 <mroman_> 120 0 5rn2co creates random scores
14:47:31 <mroman_> "abcd"Jcp:U_:so returns a list of matches
14:47:37 <mroman_> z[ assigns the random scores to the matches
14:47:51 <mroman_> {p^J>]Fi!!}m[ detects the winner of each match
14:48:00 <mroman_> f: shows how many team each team won
14:48:07 <mroman_> *how many times each team won
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14:48:29 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:48:29 <blsqbot> {{{5 5} "ab"} {{0 0} "ac"} {{5 2} "ad"} {{1 4} "bc"} {{5 1} "bd"} {{0 1} "cd"}}
14:49:15 <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P
14:49:47 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:49:47 <blsqbot> {{{5 5} "ab"} {{0 0} "ac"} {{5 2} "ad"} {{1 4} "ae"} {{5 1} "af"} {{0 1} "bc"} {
14:50:00 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:50:00 <blsqbot> {{4 'a} {3 'd} {3 'c} {2 'e} {2 'b} {1 'f}}
14:50:42 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:[-[-
14:50:43 <blsqbot> {{3 'c} {2 'e} {2 'b} {1 'f}}
14:50:46 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-]-]
14:50:52 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:51:00 <mroman_> and that gives you the winner of the tournament
14:51:21 <mroman_> which is always a for some random reason
14:51:29 <mroman_> !blsq 121 0 50rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:53:00 <mroman_> !blsq 121 0 50rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_z[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:54:22 <mroman_> !blsq 121 0 50rn2co"abcdef"cp:U_z[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:54:22 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
14:54:27 <mroman_> what's that J doing there again?
14:54:44 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments!
14:54:53 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments!
14:55:26 <mroman_> cp:U_ should be Cp or something
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15:01:27 <mroman_> {p^}m[ is so common it should be a builtin as well
15:05:09 <fizzie> mroman_: TIL that it's better to do #S at the end of a program instead of wrapping the thing around ,[...]p^ when it's a no-input-just-output problem that needs a p^ at the end.
15:06:20 <oerjan> `addquote <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
15:06:21 <HackEgo> 1223) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
15:06:33 <AndoDaan> such a relief to find somthing to get rid of that damn 21 3 4
15:07:12 <oerjan> `learn TIL that TIL means Today I Learned
15:07:27 <oerjan> possibly overly accurate for the wisdom
15:10:15 <mroman_> I might do some retro-projects in the future rather than extending Burlesque
15:10:33 <mroman_> like... writing an emulator, then write an assembler for it, then write a compiler for that assembler
15:11:23 <mroman_> and maybe ask shinh to put the emulator on anagol
15:11:34 <oerjan> i don't see how any of that is incompatible with burlesque hth
15:11:45 <mroman_> are you trying to mock me? ;)
15:12:04 <oerjan> of course not (hides `addquote above)
15:12:58 <mroman_> It's probably as useless as Burlesque doing something like I just said
15:13:26 <mroman_> but since there's nothing useful I can do
15:21:08 <mroman_> Studies Conclude Hands-Free-calling and Apple Siri Distract Drivers
15:21:18 <mroman_> My studies show farting distracts drivers.
15:21:27 <mroman_> Not as much as sneezing but still.
15:21:33 <mroman_> It also distracts the passengers.
15:21:41 <mroman_> Farting distracts drivers and passengers.
15:23:08 <mroman_> If you happen to have a insect-phobia and you're on the highway and a wasp flies over your face
15:23:16 <mroman_> that's probably really distracting as well.
15:24:07 <mroman_> much more if it stings you
15:24:14 <mroman_> which made be even worse if you're allergic to it
15:24:52 <mroman_> How can I get money to make my own distraction studies?
15:25:39 <mroman_> (also who volunteers to get stung in the face by a wasp while driving in a simulator?)
15:26:15 <mroman_> Car safety is really interesting
15:26:22 <mroman_> you're not supposed to drive while being tired
15:26:32 <mroman_> obviously even if you're tired you still have to get to work
15:26:46 <mroman_> and your boss frankly doesn't care about car safety then
15:27:05 <mroman_> you're also not supposed to drive while on certain medications
15:27:16 <mroman_> even if it's just something against a headache
15:27:31 <oerjan> no one's ever managed to get through the path for getting money to make distraction studies.
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15:29:20 <oerjan> `relcome GeorgeEpicGen
15:29:20 <HackEgo> GeorgeEpicGen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:31:08 <oerjan> HackEgo is a bot. also accidentally starting lines with symbols is not recommended in this channel.
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16:22:19 <quintopia> http://phpthegoodparts.tumblr.com/
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16:29:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40588&oldid=40584 * Quintopia * (+89) Added categories. Did not add "BF deriv" because it seems quite different
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16:45:16 <myname> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2hpzpu/announcing_needle_asciified_arrow_notation/ was this discused here?
16:48:06 <Taneb> Finally actually set up my desk.
16:48:14 <Taneb> Realised that my DVI cable is too short ;(
16:53:04 <Bicyclidine> ahahaha they reinvented graphical programming, good job
16:53:12 <Bicyclidine> or whatever it's called. whatever max/msp is
16:54:07 <elliott_> well, this kind of 2d arrow notation was in the original arrows paper
16:54:12 <Bicyclidine> what's it got to do with arrows though, it's just a buncha compositions
16:54:32 <elliott_> it's desugaring to arrow methods.
16:54:36 <elliott_> (->) just happens to be an arrow.
16:55:23 <quintopia> the reddit comments remind me of Funciton
16:55:30 <Bicyclidine> well, anyway it looks like arrows are from 2000 and max/msp came out in the late eighties. how many DJs know haskell, rough estimate
16:56:07 <elliott_> I mean max/msp isn't the only graphical programming thing in the unievrse.
16:56:17 <Bicyclidine> yeah but it's the one whose producing company has the coolest name
16:56:39 <Bicyclidine> i mean, what, you gonna do LabVIEW? fuck that, no style at all
16:56:58 <Bicyclidine> http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/201104/labview.jpg the future of haskell imo
16:57:07 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: re djs and haskell, http://yaxu.org/
16:57:11 <Bicyclidine> no, wait, there's a "pause" in there, i bet that's a side effet
16:57:14 <elliott_> some very very cool haskell-based livecoding music stuff
16:57:34 <elliott_> incl. some graphical programming stuff akin to max
16:58:04 <Bicyclidine> also some pretty unpleasant experiences with nonlinear circuits D:
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17:05:40 <J_Arcane> http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/press.html
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17:08:14 <elliott_> huh, so electronics never had blue blinkenlights before the 90s?
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17:25:24 <Bike> how often were LEDs in blinkenlights anyways
17:30:03 <mroman_> oerjan shood GeorgeEpicGen away
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17:31:38 <mroman_> I gotta buy me a finnish book
17:33:51 <mroman_> there's a book "divorce in finnish"
17:41:42 <mroman_> luckily I'm rich enough to buy expensive books
17:41:43 <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
17:43:31 <elliott_> `addquote <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
17:43:32 <HackEgo> 1224) <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
17:43:45 <elliott_> Bike: well, I mean blinkenlights in consumer electronics.
17:43:54 <elliott_> I'm pretty sure, e.g. routers usually use LEDs?
17:44:14 <Bike> now that you mention it i don't think i've seen a router with blue leds. green and red, orange, but...
17:44:29 <Bike> part of that is just the conventions of what colors mean though.
17:44:31 <elliott_> I've seen a router with blue lights. can't say whether it uses LEDs.
17:45:15 <Taneb> http://www.yusu.org/whats-on/event/5593
17:46:04 <elliott_> have to experience authentic indigineous scandinavian culture
17:46:42 <Jafet> Enjoy the authentic scandinavian food
17:46:50 <Taneb> I think most of the members are people from scandinavian countries
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17:47:23 <Taneb> Although I almost ended up in I think the lithuanian society
17:49:31 <mroman_> the next essies will be held in Finnland
17:51:25 <fizzie> Bike: I think my VDSL2 box has blue leds.
17:51:28 <fizzie> Bike: It's relatively new, though.
17:52:04 <quintopia> i would be down to have a world esoteric languages convention. we all kind of know each other anyway. only probably is we also know that most of us could never travel that far
17:53:03 <mroman_> when's it hot in finnland :D?
17:54:03 <fizzie> If it's 2015, it's semi-likely I won't be in Finland to attend to it. :/
17:54:31 <fizzie> Also the VDSL2 box has green actual status leds, but there's a (useless) blue overall "I'm powered up" rounded-rectangle light.
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18:12:34 <J_Arcane> Oooh. I didn't know about this. https://github.com/NICTA/course
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18:48:10 <J_Arcane> I love these sorts of test-driven exercises. The koans are great, for the most part.
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20:18:18 <fizzie> MS Word experts here? I need to fill a .docx form, and it has these N-cell fields that I can't really use, but if I try to "merge cells", the row height goes completely bizarre and can't be dragged back down.
20:22:17 <fizzie> Well, I did find some sort of table properties -> row height -> "at least" -> "is exactly", which maybe helped.
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20:38:07 <mroman_> quintopia: I'm a computer nerd that is quite sporty ;)
20:38:26 <mroman_> ex-climber, ex-ninjitsu and ex-parkour among other things
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21:06:21 <mroman_> and currently living in a mental health institution
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21:11:31 <mroman_> and I've just ordered some finnish learn materials
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21:19:36 <mroman_> there are missionaries in finnland
21:29:08 <Taneb> mroman_, gotta convert them savages
21:29:35 <mroman_> they must practice some weird kind of nordish cult
21:29:44 <mroman_> assumingly with animal sacrificies and what not
21:30:04 <mroman_> maybe they worship squirrels
21:30:46 <mroman_> so the christian community has to send missionaries to convert them
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21:31:15 <mroman_> I don't know squat about finnland to be honest
21:31:26 <mroman_> From what I've heard the sun rarely visits the country
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21:38:43 <fizzie> oerjan: <oerjan> 236 is a bit long for a golf maybe so I made a (currently) 427-byte Forth solution
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22:25:36 * oerjan had another idea for shortening it which didn't work.
22:26:35 <oerjan> one annoying thing about it being this long is that it's too awkward to put on just one line, which means i cannot see at a glance whether it actually _is_ shorter.
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23:10:39 <madbr> ok I think I've figured the ideal set of limitations for a simple computer architecture project
23:11:37 <madbr> Use 512k of DRAM, 16bits, with a constant memory cycle at about 4mhz (so 8mhz with 2 wait states, 12mhz with 3 wait states etc)
23:13:33 <madbr> input uses the same scheme as the NES and SNES - the keys have a generic parallel to serial chip, and the system sends a "read" pulse (to read the controller state), the 8 or 16 more "shift" pulses (to read each one of the buttons serially). This only requires 2 output lines and 1 input line
23:15:02 <madbr> storage uses SD card flash, which only requires 3 or 4 pins (and has a spi mode which should keep things simple)
23:15:58 <madbr> the video output hardware outputs directly to NTSC and is containted on the same chip as the cpu (presumably an FPGA)
23:17:06 <madbr> the cpu is designed to be efficient with a 16bit memory bus and is a small RISC with 32bit registers but 16bit opcodes (just like superH or ARM thumb), with 16 registers
23:17:35 <madbr> also it shares DRAM cycles with the video hardware
23:17:53 <madbr> DRAM refresh is done by the video hardware on HBLANK cycles
23:18:49 <madbr> video hardware also does sound output by reading from sound data in ram during HBLANK cycles (just like the commodore AMIGA)
23:19:28 <madbr> and is reduced to 1 bit at a high clock rate so that the L and R channels can be output on a single pin (with a capacitor+resistor filter)
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23:21:17 <madbr> the whole thing is a main chip (cpu + video hw) with about 48 pins, 512k of slow 16bit DRAM, an SD card, and a controller (which has some kind of button matrix and an couple off the shelf parallel-to-serial chips)
23:21:55 <madbr> and a few analog components (resistor+capacitor filters/DACs) for the left sound channel, right sound channel and NTSC video out
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23:22:58 <madbr> there is no 3d rendering capacity (not fast enough)
23:27:42 <zzo38> I don't know much about working of Amiga
23:28:38 <zzo38> But I like the way the Famicom does all of the things
23:29:47 <madbr> yeah this is way more amiga
23:30:01 <madbr> actually it has some similarities to SNES too
23:31:52 <zzo38> I mostly just know the Amiga .MOD music format, although I know Amiga does more; there is video editing software for Amiga too, as I have seen.
23:33:43 <madbr> amiga is actually super influential
23:34:00 <madbr> basically the PC is horrible and is designed against games
23:34:17 <madbr> it simply eventually got fast enough to ignore its braindead design
23:34:36 <Bike> remind me to tell you about dna polymerase sometime
23:34:44 <madbr> the Mac is actually even more horrible and was actually worse than PC
23:35:00 <madbr> like, horrible enough that they had to reboot it (osx)
23:35:15 <Bike> windows did that too...
23:35:26 <madbr> Windows has windows 95
23:36:14 <madbr> which did... that pretty much yes
23:36:39 <madbr> dude, 95 is like 100 times bigger
23:37:04 <elliott_> NT was a completely new kernel; it was huge, architecturally.
23:37:16 <madbr> elliott_ : yes but it forced everything to 32 bits
23:37:29 <madbr> and to modern memory management
23:37:44 <madbr> and protected mode, paging, real multitasking etc
23:38:02 <madbr> NT simply took out the shit they had to keep to keep DOS and windows16 programs working
23:38:14 <elliott_> uh, I think 16-bit programs still ran after NT.
23:38:29 <elliott_> I've seen people run, like, the Windows 1 calculator on XP.
23:38:32 <madbr> well, yeah but they took out all the craziest dos shit
23:38:35 <zzo38> Yes the PC isn't a very good design, especially the new PC designs are pretty bad too.
23:38:38 <madbr> which is want makes it cleaner
23:38:58 <madbr> PC had the 386 which fixed the real design mistakes of the instuction set
23:38:59 <Bike> this only strengthens my resolve to compute solely in trefunge
23:39:14 <madbr> and windows95 which fixed the horrible DOS crud (eventually)
23:39:31 <zzo38> I happen to like the Nintendo Famicom design.
23:39:33 <elliott_> anyway, NT is far more comparable to OS X, if that's the analogy gone for here.
23:39:48 <zzo38> It is slow, and limited, but still pretty good design compared to much other things.
23:40:00 <Bike> i kind of wish i could use the ricoh 2a03 as an example of something
23:40:01 <elliott_> OS X maintained the same essential user experience while completely replacing the internals with a new kernel designed for modularity and stability. that's a perfect description of NT
23:40:02 <Bike> it's just so hilarious
23:40:32 <zzo38> Bike: Well, 2A03 is a combination of a 6502 CPU with decimal mode logic cut off, and a APU.
23:40:44 <madbr> elliott_ : NT runs the same binaries as 96
23:40:46 <madbr> elliott_ : NT runs the same binaries as 95
23:41:22 <elliott_> sure. 95 could run older programs, too, and OS X has Carbon, and also ran Classic programs via emulation for a long time
23:41:42 <elliott_> (and Carbon is a direct descendent of the Mac OS Classic APIs)
23:41:51 <elliott_> no they're not literally identical, but OS X is definitely the closest analogue to NT
23:42:02 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone can make new Famicom CPU/PPU chips by duplicating the mask image?
23:42:29 <madbr> zzo38 : I think it's small enough that they can emulate the cpu from the mask
23:42:42 <madbr> elliott_ : NT only replaced the internals
23:43:06 <Sgeo> If I want to learn about OS kernels, where should I start? Learning about Linux, or Windows, or something else
23:43:07 <madbr> OSX replaced like everything
23:43:08 <elliott_> I lost interest in this arguent five minutes ago.
23:43:12 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I want to ensure that it works precisely the same, including any obscure things, unofficial instructions, electrical specifics (including having to do with cartridge), etc
23:43:25 <Bike> Sgeo: maybe write a filesystem
23:43:31 <elliott_> 95 didn't replace /everything/ either, so if you want something completely revolutionary it doesn't fit just as much as NT doesn't.
23:43:41 <Sgeo> I just want to read, not write.
23:43:49 <elliott_> Sgeo: writing your own is the best way to learn about them, probably. osdev.org
23:43:50 <madbr> Sgeo : win32 or linux, or any other similar modern paged memory-time sharing system
23:43:56 <elliott_> or at least reading a hobbyist kernel
23:44:05 <elliott_> you don't want to study linux because it's a gigantic complicated mess
23:44:10 <elliott_> at least minix or something. there's books, even.
23:44:18 <madbr> elliott_ : yeah but win95 was basically structurally sound
23:44:22 <Bike> i like practicing things.
23:44:26 <elliott_> (not a monolithic vs. microkernel thing; just a linux being a complex mess thing)
23:44:33 <madbr> they could have kept it indefinitely
23:44:54 <madbr> they probably would have regretted it (ok they did do ME) but it was tenable, basically
23:45:15 <madbr> pre-OSX mac os was not tenable
23:45:18 <zzo38> I have seen the diagrams of all calls and stuff in Linux and Windows; Linux is really complicated and Windows is even more really complicatd than Linux.
23:45:28 <madbr> like, it still had memory compaction
23:45:38 <Bike> yesterday some people from Garmin were recruiting and i found out they have an os development division of some kind
23:45:48 <elliott_> yeah their gpses run a custom OS I think
23:45:51 <Bike> which is a bit unexpected given that i only know them from car GPS...
23:45:55 <elliott_> probably based on one of the standard embedded kernels though
23:45:56 <madbr> you didn't even have real pointers, you had handles and the OS could move around your memory blocks
23:46:20 <madbr> a holdback from the original Mac that had tiny ram and no MMU so they had no choice
23:46:28 <elliott_> madbr: tbh that's more modern in some sense, considering copying GCs and the like :p
23:46:29 <madbr> but it was still there in mac os9
23:46:37 <elliott_> not in the implementation in classic mac os of course. but in principle
23:46:43 <madbr> no, modern is malloc()
23:47:00 <elliott_> (and actually OS X does memory compression thanks to virtual memory these days)
23:47:09 <madbr> yeah but it's transparent
23:47:19 <madbr> and it uses the paging system to hide it
23:47:46 <madbr> like, classic mac os has no paging
23:48:52 <madbr> also it still had a whole bunch of emulated 68000 code for the longest time
23:49:00 <madbr> even after the PPC move
23:49:36 <elliott_> it was also cooperatively multitasked right until the end, I think
23:50:01 <madbr> like, that's why they were losing from about when windows 95 was out, until they fixed that mess with OSX
23:50:21 <pikhq> madbr: Unfortunately, they had numerous abortive efforts to switch away from that.
23:50:33 <madbr> and OSX is the one that worked
23:50:41 <pikhq> The world would be kinda interesting if A/UX took off.
23:51:12 <pikhq> Wasn't there some 68000 code in Mac OS to the very end?
23:51:37 <zzo38> I have read about the possibility of FPGA that can reprogram itself, as well as the ability to use open-source toolkits with it (and therefore, also not being limited to x86-based computers), by using microbitstream composition; this may also make it easier to even write program for programming FPGA inside of the Famicom itself, maybe.
23:52:07 <madbr> zzo38 : the point of using a famicom architecture would be to run famicom games
23:52:10 <zzo38> (You would still need the vendor's tools to generate the microbitstream set for the specific model of FPGA you are using, but after that you can do it in a vendor-independent and open-source way)
23:52:21 <madbr> otherwise you'd probably want to use something cleaner and easier to write for
23:52:26 <elliott_> it's kind of impressive that apple have weathered two CPU architecture changes and one kernel change
23:52:27 <madbr> like the GBA or something like that
23:52:35 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I just think Famicom is a good architecture and I do write programs for Famicom.
23:52:44 <pikhq> Course, it was never *not* able to run 68000 code...
23:52:47 <madbr> elliott_ : it's not just a kernel change, it's basically a different OS... but yeah :D
23:52:51 <elliott_> and carbon isn't even totally dead yet
23:52:55 <pikhq> It's kinda sad in a way that they finally dropped Classic.
23:53:00 <elliott_> madbr: yeah, but a lot of the APIs carried over
23:53:13 <elliott_> it wasn't totally foreign, to start with. it moved away significantly with cocoa of course.
23:53:21 <madbr> elliott_ : you could say that about win16 vs win32
23:53:33 <elliott_> I bet you can port a very old mac program to carbon that will run today without too many changes if it's simple enough.
23:53:54 <Bike> marathon was totes simple, do tha
23:53:57 <pikhq> The same is true of Win16 code.
23:54:19 <pikhq> Shit, if you're running it on x86 you can go and *run* Windows 1 apps.
23:54:40 <elliott_> windows hasn't gone through two big cpu architecture changes though :p
23:54:42 <madbr> elliott_ : a win32 program made in 1995 still runs
23:54:55 <pikhq> elliott_: They tried though. :P
23:54:55 <Bike> how's roller coaster tycoon do
23:55:17 <pikhq> Windows NT wasn't developed on the x86, it was ported.
23:55:27 <elliott_> what did they develop it on again? alpha or something?
23:55:31 <madbr> I'm not convinced the 68k->ppc change was a good idea
23:55:47 <pikhq> It was some obscure Intel RISC thing.
23:55:55 <elliott_> that was intentional so it'd be portable, right?
23:56:01 <elliott_> I'm not sure they intended to deploy it widely on that architceture
23:56:26 <pikhq> elliott_: They strongly intended to deploy on not-x86, they just weren't sure what.
23:56:36 <zzo38> You can still run many Famicom programs on GBA, though; the program PocketNES will run a lot of them that use only the standard gamepad, at least; programs that require keyboard, light gun, tape, drawing tablet, etc of course won't work, nor will it work if it is an unimplemented mapper.
23:57:10 <madbr> that's the one that never got faster than the stupid x86 designs right? :D
23:57:11 <pikhq> madbr: Ah, the i860.
23:57:59 <madbr> I guess the i860 was good... as a lesson
23:58:04 <elliott_> madbr: x86 designs are pretty advanced :p
23:58:08 <elliott_> I think itanium wasn't as bad as it looked
23:58:15 <elliott_> and that compilers got better and maybe the actual chip got better?
23:58:20 <elliott_> but it still wasn't massively impressive.
23:58:29 <madbr> the stupid pentium2 has killed so many architectures
23:58:46 <madbr> and has evolved into the ridiculous behemoth it is now
23:59:39 <elliott_> really, it would be nice if 64-bit killed x86.
23:59:43 <madbr> basically to be the fastest now you have to do out of order speculative memory access
23:59:51 <elliott_> unfortunately itanium didn't and let x86-64 happen
00:00:05 <madbr> that changes any cpu design into raving insanity
00:00:06 <pikhq> The Itanium's major failure was that it was less good at running x86 code than a real x86.
00:00:28 <madbr> I'M not sure the itanium is even a better design than x86
00:00:43 <madbr> It's probably too parallel
00:01:27 <madbr> real programs do a lot of horrible pipeline breaking stuff (essentially memory reading) so there's no point in doing something that does more than about 5-issue
00:01:53 <madbr> so the potential gains of itanium never materialized
00:02:00 <madbr> except in floating point code
00:02:10 <madbr> but they went after the server market
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00:03:33 <madbr> inversely the kind of thing that helps you in horrible pipeline breaking stuff (code compression!!, crazy speculative memory accesses) are exactly the things that kept x86 faster than itanium, especially for the kind of applications itanium was used in
00:04:53 <pikhq> And one of the other big selling points of the Itanium was that it could also run x86 code without any trouble.
00:05:01 <pikhq> But it failed horribly at that.
00:05:24 <madbr> like, ARM cpus have a thumb mode, which uses 16bit instructions instead of 32bit ones... this disallows a lot of instructions... but it still runs about as fast as 32bit mode because the code is more compact!
00:05:43 <pikhq> To the point that a software emulator performed better.
00:06:30 <madbr> well, a really serious attempt would have used the same execution ressources for x86 and basically have 2 front ends
00:06:39 <madbr> that's actually what ARM does
00:07:18 <madbr> arm64 uses a different front end (=different instruction set!) but has exactly the same pipelines behind that
00:07:19 <pikhq> Of course, the Itanium came at a fairly crappy point in Intel CPU design.
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00:07:31 <pikhq> Contemporary with the Pentium 4!
00:07:41 <madbr> pentium 4 wasn't _that_ bad
00:08:00 <madbr> compared to real cpu design mistakes (i860, i432)
00:08:32 <madbr> it couldn't keep up with the pentium2's voodoo, but pretty much nothing can
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00:11:07 <madbr> and it was basically a gamble based on silicon letting you go a few ghz faster still (was designed to scale up to 10ghz, they expected to reach something like 6ghz but of course it never happened)
00:11:23 <pikhq> The depth of the pipeline was rather absurd though.
00:11:32 <pikhq> 31 stage pipeline.
00:11:45 <madbr> if silicon reached 10ghz that would've paid off
00:12:24 <madbr> 31 stage pipeline is okay if it lets you do something like run 10 instructions per cycle
00:15:28 <pikhq> Unfortunately, real code branches rather more often than is necessary to make that pipeline worthwhile.
00:16:08 <pikhq> To the point that a PIII has this tendency to outperform a P4. :)
00:17:44 <madbr> well, if the p4 went at 6ghz it would've paid off
00:18:13 <madbr> but it didn't and consequently the ultra deep pipeline is useless
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00:19:02 <madbr> doesn't help that people use stuff like zip decompression as benchmarks
00:19:14 <madbr> which obviously tend to put the P2 ahead
00:19:38 <madbr> since it's basically nothing but jumps and hard to predict memory accesses
00:20:16 <pikhq> Doesn't help also that Intel decided RAMBUS was awesomesauce
00:21:12 <madbr> kindof wondering what kind of design is optimal if you have a 16bit memory bus and no cache
00:21:23 <madbr> and no prefetch even
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00:22:11 <pikhq> (and as ZIP tends to be memory-latency bound...)
00:25:04 <madbr> I guess with no cache and small bus the design is basically something like the superH
00:25:22 <madbr> super limited constants, small register file (in spite of being a risc!)
00:25:33 <madbr> 32bit registers though
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00:25:57 <madbr> and a multiplier would be useful as well
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00:27:21 <madbr> kindof wanting to have 16 registers so that everything fits nicely into nibbles and you can basically hex edit the code
00:27:52 <madbr> and have 4/8/12bit constants
00:27:58 <Bike> eight bit opcodes?
00:28:28 <madbr> 8bit opcode + 4bit src register + 4bit dest register
00:29:12 <madbr> except for a few operations that have a 4bit opcode because they are very common and benefit from it
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00:29:37 <madbr> like memory loading (probably 4bit opcode + 4bit dest + 4bit src + 4bit displacement)
00:30:31 <madbr> and probably some operation to help loading up large constants (8bit mov immediate? 12bit mov immediate into a fixed register?)
00:30:54 <Bike> load with shift?
00:31:07 <madbr> or maybe add large immediate
00:31:36 <madbr> mips has load high but I think it would be more useful to have an add operation
00:31:44 <madbr> or shift + add immediate
00:31:58 <Bike> yeah, i've been doing mips so that's what i'm thinking of.
00:32:10 <madbr> ARM does it by having a shift amount in every immediate
00:32:18 <Bike> i said you could implement the load 32 bit immediate pseudoop as a load high and add, but i don't know if that's what assemblers actually do.
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00:38:38 <madbr> yeah basically it's a multiply-accumulate but with fixed factor
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00:42:30 <madbr> the small opcode size makes it all kinda CISC-y, it's cute :D
00:44:00 <madbr> except without the mistakes of CISC (basically, not enough registers on 6502!)
00:44:28 <madbr> (and 8-bit opcodes being barely worth using at all)
00:44:51 <madbr> (and 8bit registers being basically too small)
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00:54:42 <pikhq> Hey, an 8 bit register is plenty if you've got 8 bit addresses!
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00:57:15 <madbr> how often does that happen? :D
00:57:15 <madbr> even x86 ended up with segments due to 16bit being basically too small :D
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01:08:41 <zzo38> Oops some of my messages got cut off.
01:12:24 <madbr> zzo38 : suppose you have about 250 RAM access cycles per scanline
01:12:47 <madbr> the DRAM accesses are 16bit but have to be shared with the cpu (and with sound and DRAM refresh)
01:13:04 <madbr> what sort of gfx hardware would you design around that? :D
01:15:04 <madbr> for instance if you give half the cycles to cpu then you have 125 cycles
01:15:50 <madbr> considering hblank is about 75% of the scanline time you could have 320x224 display (NTSC) in 16 colors by using 80 cycles
01:16:17 <madbr> but then you wouldn't have any sprites
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01:24:55 <madbr> also if it's tiled you'd need to load up the tile info
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01:29:29 <madbr> you get to load up to about 250 words, how do you make it look pretty? :D
01:31:57 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I would try to make the DRAM to pretend to be SRAM, first.
01:32:35 <madbr> yeah this is constant access time
01:32:53 <madbr> you lose a few cycles every scanline to refresh but that's a detail
01:33:01 <zzo38> Well, I would probably do something like the Famicom does it. It accesses sprites during hblank.
01:33:20 <madbr> hmm but wouldn't that limit the amount of sprites you can display?
01:33:54 <madbr> the master system does this as well
01:34:00 <zzo38> The Famicom can display up to eight sprites at once, but if it runs faster then you can add more sprites per scanline.
01:34:17 <zzo38> (Actually, Famicom can have up to 64 sprites on the screen at once, but no more than 8 per scanline.)
01:34:32 <madbr> yeah 8 per scanline isn't much
01:34:48 <madbr> especially compared to the tg16 which can essentially cover the screen in sprites
01:35:43 <zzo38> But depending on the speed in relation to hblank time, you can design it to use more sprites.
01:36:55 <madbr> if you use a half cpu half gpu separation, you have about 90 hactive cycles and 30 hblank cycles
01:37:17 <madbr> but they are 16bit cycles which helps
01:37:47 <madbr> in 16 colors that's about... 8 sprites. but they are 16 pixel wide
01:37:49 <zzo38> If the PPU uses separate memory, or if it is double bus memory, then you don't need to do that.
01:38:17 <madbr> was thinking of a single chip system-on-a-chip thing
01:38:45 <madbr> if you were to do that it would be better to just go to a single 32bit bus
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01:40:20 <madbr> unless you did something like banked RAM... which is actually not a bad idea at all
01:41:32 <madbr> but then you could as well go 64bit SDRAM cached 3D etc
01:41:56 <madbr> and then just use an ARM system on a chip
01:42:15 <madbr> and then your design has no reason to exist because there's a million of those in the world already
01:42:21 <zzo38> I don't really like ARM though so I probably wouldn't use it.
01:42:33 <zzo38> I would prefer things like 6502
01:42:39 <madbr> what's wrong with the ARM?
01:43:12 <zzo38> It is too messy, just like x86. The original ARM1 wasn't so bad though.
01:43:29 <madbr> and the 6502 is less messy? :D
01:43:42 <zzo38> Yes, I like it better, at least.
01:43:58 <zzo38> For one it doesn't do caching and out of order execution and all that confusing stuff, so it works better.
01:44:07 <madbr> the ARMs that are oriented towards embedded applications are a lot cleaner tbh
01:44:22 <madbr> and a lot faster than the 6502 for similar complexity
01:44:47 <madbr> that's why arms and mips are used in so many embedded applications
01:44:51 <zzo38> I could also try to design my own instruction set if I wanted to I suppose.
01:45:05 <madbr> that's what I'm trying to do
01:45:23 <madbr> with 16bit instructions and 16bit memory bus but otherwise RISC with 32bit registers
01:45:51 <zzo38> MIPS is not quite too bad either
01:46:19 <madbr> mips is very classic yes
01:46:31 <madbr> mostly because it's fast compared to how complex it is!
01:47:07 <zzo38> It is complex, but still better than modern x86 systems
01:47:21 <zzo38> which are just really stupid.
01:47:58 <madbr> x86 evolved for compatibility and speed, not simplicity
01:48:24 <zzo38> But I like the NMOS 6502 instruction set.
02:01:42 <zzo38> I am making Z-machine interpreter in Famicom, and have designed a new kind of mapper for it which bankswitches ROM and RAM one byte at a time.
02:03:36 <madbr> I'm not sure such a thing is possible in hardware :D
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02:37:19 <zzo38> madbr: I have made such a design, using four 74xx series; you can see the design I made if you want to
02:39:58 <zzo38> See http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_I for the design of this new kind of mapper. Do you know much about 74xx series?
02:52:49 <zzo38> I happen to like chess retropuzzles, even if you don't like it.
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03:38:42 <Sgeo> When you say Minix is a good OS to read, do you mean this? http://www.minix3.org/
03:38:53 <Sgeo> Or... historical Minix that Linux came from?
03:39:46 <elliott_> I mean whatever the latest edition of Operating Systems Design and Implementation covers, probably.
03:40:53 <elliott_> I haven't researched Minix myself.
03:41:02 <Sgeo> "Revised to address the latest version of MINIX (MINIX 3), this streamlined, simplified new edition remains the only operating systems text to first explain relevant principles, then demonstrate their applications using a Unix-like operating system as a detailed example. It has been especially designed for high reliability, for use in embedded systems, and for ease of teaching."
03:41:49 <pikhq> elliott_: Modern-day MINIX is intended as an actual reasonably useful OS that's also simple.
03:41:53 <elliott_> huh, hal finney died. well... got frozen.
03:42:05 <pikhq> Soooo, I imagine it's less simple than older versions.
03:42:09 <pikhq> Perhaps more illustrative though.
03:42:32 <Sgeo> Should I buy the book, or are there good online things for Minix?
03:42:54 <elliott_> that's available online I think.
03:42:59 <elliott_> probably a very good place to start.
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03:43:38 <pikhq> I actually know that's a good read.
03:44:37 <pikhq> And hey, the code will actually run on computers people actually have.
03:45:08 <pikhq> Though MINIX is far more real-world.
03:45:15 <pikhq> pkgsrc actually runs on it. :P
03:51:27 <J_Arcane> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-828-operating-system-engineering-fall-2006/
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04:37:58 <Sgeo> "Objective-C has elements that are unlike any language you've probably experienced, so sit back and enjoy your journey into the world of Objective-C!"
04:38:06 <Sgeo> Is that accurate even given Smalltalk exposure?
04:39:38 <Bike> no, it's totally unhealthy to sit too far back in a chair
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04:40:37 <NSSgeo> Is NS the Lisp parens of Objective-C?
04:41:42 <elliott_> C library namespaces are way longer
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04:47:11 <NSSgeo> .... Objective-C doesn't have generics. But it ... looks like a statically typed language. And according to StackOverflow it's fine to just send messages, no casting. Is the appearance of static typing a lie?
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05:06:05 <NSSgeo> I am no longer upset that Objective-C is mostly an Apple thing. I fail to see value in it
05:06:25 <NSSgeo> stringByAppendingStringAndImSureThereAreEvenLongerMethodNames
05:07:50 <NSSgeo> stringByReplacingOccurencesOfString:withString:
05:19:51 <NSSgeo> [NSString stringWithString:firstName]
05:20:10 <NSSgeo> Are message sends usually done without the space I'm expecting before firstName?
05:21:55 <Bike> i'm gonna be honest sgeo, i didn't peg you for the "complain about naming" type when you do your stupid language thing
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05:23:44 <NSSgeo> I have another non-naming complaint about Objective-C that I didn't air here, even the tutorial complained... getting hte value of an NSNumber* in order to do multiplication
05:23:55 <NSSgeo> But names can be important
05:24:04 <NSSgeo> [NSString stringWithFormat: @"%@ %@", firstName, lastName];
05:24:17 <NSSgeo> Is that true varargs, or a trick with , to make some sort of tuple-like thing?
05:24:30 <Bike> smalltalk has varargs doesn't it
05:25:05 <NSSgeo> I would say no. Although it does support apply-like functionality
05:28:22 <zzo38> I don't know a lot of Objective-C stuff, but I know that it is a strict superset of C, so any C program will work just fine in Objective-C. I believe iPhone programs have to be in Objective-C; therefore C programs can be used too. Also, GCC can compile Objective-C programs, so it doesn't have to be used with Apple, if you have any other uses for it.
05:28:48 <madbr> irl it's an apple vendor lock in
05:29:06 <madbr> basically it's used nowhere else
05:29:42 <madbr> as in, good luck porting that to win32 or android
05:29:51 <zzo38> Well, you can still write C programs, and write the platform-specific stuff in Objective-C for Apple, and then the rest of the C stuff can still be used on normal C platforms.
05:30:12 <lifthrasiir> NSSgeo: it's a vararg afaik. in fact, objc_msgSend *always* works with the varargs.
05:31:15 <NSSgeo> lifthrasiir: interesting
05:44:11 <NSSgeo> .NET has a stereotype of being mainly Windows, doesn't it? But apparently some Linux programs use it
05:47:02 <zzo38> So, I think it isn't a vendor lock since you can write the program in C.
05:52:48 <NSSgeo> There are also APIs which I assume you generally have to call via Objective-C non-C code
05:53:07 <NSSgeo> Those APIs, even if you can use C syntax to call, are vendor lock-in
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05:54:21 <zzo38> Yes, some APIs may be, although the general program logic doesn't have to be. However, some APIs may be such a case with any vendor system. You can still use conditional compilation and so on, which can be useful with other C programs too.
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06:09:58 <NSSgeo> Apparently people love Cocoa
06:10:43 <madbr> it is good for making hot chocolate
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06:26:32 <zzo38> Is it possible that from a system of square Wang tiles you can make an equivalent system of triangular Wang tiles if you add more colors?
06:30:22 <sebbu> NSSgeo, objective-c has a stereotype of being mainly MacOS, but some linux / programs use it too
06:30:45 <sebbu> it even has some cocoa-compatible library, although a little old
06:33:20 <zzo38> sebbu: So, now we can see that it isn't Apple only. That doesn't have to do with the points I made though, which are unrelated. I was talking about programs that have some Objective-C stuff; now you can see that even mainly Objective-C programs can sometimes be used on non-Apple systems too.
06:34:31 <zzo38> (I still like to use C though, rather than Objective-C)
06:35:33 <zzo38> But still I like it that it can still be used with C programs, unlike with C++ which doesn't quite do that.
06:36:00 <Taneb> ...I am awake reasonably early for once
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07:03:35 <sebbu> zzo38, well, I already compiled objective-c + cocoa code under windows
07:03:57 <sebbu> sure, it wasn't some new, high-end software
07:04:14 <sebbu> the cocoa lib in macos(x)/ios has evolved a lot
07:04:23 <sebbu> that'll be the main point of incompatibility
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07:33:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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07:52:36 <mroman_> why do some old CPUs have 32bit registers but 24bit addresses?
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08:02:14 <mroman_> "critical applications still rely on old platforms" such as PDP/11
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08:28:02 <fungot> mroman_: i don't know enough about darcs to advocate features arch has over it... he basically used cps in scheme and write in some parenthesized variant of c which are now all run on vm's, don't they?
08:28:19 <mroman_> fungot: everything is a VM today, yes
08:28:19 <fungot> mroman_: actually more like 2. hit on to induce to engage in such activities.
08:28:32 <fungot> mroman_: what are the constraints, " number at ( x, x y
08:32:50 <mroman_> > (((2^24) / (2^10))*4)/1024
08:32:58 -!- FreeFull has quit.
08:33:08 <mroman_> > (((2^24) / (2^16))*4)/1024
08:33:23 <mroman_> > (((2^24) / (2^12))*4)/1024
08:33:52 <mroman_> > (((2^24) / (2^14))*4)/1024
08:34:39 <mroman_> A page is 16kb and a page table is 4kb
08:37:45 <fizzie> x86-64 has 64-bit reigsters and 48-bit virtual addresses, presumably to save in the chip area cost of address-translation logic + number of levels in the page tables.
08:39:27 <fizzie> "Reigster", must be some sort of a title.
08:39:45 <fizzie> The reigning reigster.
08:39:46 <mroman_> Motorola 68k has 32bit arithmetic register and 24bit addressing
08:43:03 <fizzie> The eZ80 is mostly 8-bit and has 24-bit addressing. (Though it admittedly does have a 24-bit ALU; it basically just makes the 16-bit register pairs of Z80 24 bits wide.)
08:43:37 <fizzie> (You can't address the upper bytes separately as an 8-bit register or anything.)
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09:02:52 <fizzie> "uhhuh mr chairman you anything [laugh] yeah okay"
09:03:09 <fizzie> I just fungot-style generated some sentences from a (giant) meeting corpus language model.
09:04:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:04:15 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
09:04:22 <fungot> mroman_: bit bit when a gosub, the
09:04:51 <shachaf> Mysteriously I can ping a google.com IP but not 8.8.8.8 or 4.2.2.2 or 208.67.222.222 (and DNS isn't working, of course). My mosh sessions are also still alive. I wonder what could be going on.
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09:05:04 <fizzie> "Bit bit when a gosub", it's like a song.
09:05:36 <mroman_> you know they have to block alternative DNS-Servers
09:06:00 <mroman_> because with alternative DNS-Servers you can undermine state-ordered DNS bans
09:06:31 <shachaf> It was this way for a few minutes at least.
09:06:58 <mroman_> in the near future only DNS servers certified by the state may be used
09:08:51 <myname> mroman_: at some point, google will buy a piece of land and shadowrun will become reality
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09:20:28 <mroman_> `unicode SINGLE LEFT-POINTING ANGLE QUOTATION MARK
09:20:52 <mroman_> `unicode SINGLE RIGHT-POINTING ANGLE QUOTATION MARK
09:22:49 <fizzie> `unicode DOUBLE LEFT-POINTING ANGLE QUOTATION MARK
09:23:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: are there 24-bit long memory load and store instructions for those registers too?
09:23:26 <fizzie> `unicode LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK
09:23:44 <fizzie> Why is it "SINGLE LEFT-POINTING ANGLE QUOTATION MARK" but "LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK"?
09:23:49 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Sep 12 13:29 bin/icode -> unidecode
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09:25:38 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes. Though they're not really separate instructions, it's just a processor mode whether it does 16 or 24.
09:26:01 <fizzie> Oh, I guess there are some suffixes.
09:26:16 <fizzie> So maybe that translates to prefix bytes to temporarily override the mode, I'm not too familiar with the thing.
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09:28:52 <fizzie> Fun fact: eZ80 has as an officially documented feature the same thing that Z80 did undocumentedly, which is to let you access the low/high bytes of the index registers IX, IY as individual 8-bit registers IXH, IXL, IYH, IYL.
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09:31:59 <b_jonas> it sounds like alien if it has 3 byte long integers and read/writes for them. are they really 3 byte long writes, not 4 byte?
09:32:16 <b_jonas> and the registers are 3 byte long too?
09:32:25 <b_jonas> I can't imagine that these days.
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09:33:53 <HackEgo> [U+FF1C FULLWIDTH LESS-THAN SIGN]
09:35:52 <fizzie> That's what the manual claims.
09:36:57 <fizzie> "In ADL mode, all addresses and data are 24 bits. All data READ and WRITE operations pass 3 bytes of data to and from the CPU when operating in ADL mode (as opposed to only 2 bytes of data while in Z80 mode operation)."
09:38:14 <mroman_> It's called html injection over stuff that replaces similar looking stuff with ASCII stuff
09:38:41 <b_jonas> and are there 16 bit load, store, compare instructions available in that mode?
09:38:41 <fizzie> The Motorola DSP56k is also very 24-bit, but I guess "DSPs Are Different".
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09:39:21 <fizzie> It's not byte-addressable, anyway, so having an odd number might not be much of a difficulty.
09:40:29 <mroman_> It's also useful in forums that filter out html-tags but you wan't to show somebody how to do stuff in HTML
09:40:38 <fizzie> I don't know what eZ80 C implementations do, or whether there are many/any. SDCC doesn't target it.
09:41:23 <fizzie> Zilog has something, it seems.
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09:43:55 <fizzie> "I swear on my mothers grave, to god and the great turtle that carries the earth that Zilog has not release a single stable, reliable and consistent compiler for at least eight years by now - I've used them for the past 6 years, and my colleagues have told me many similar stories of the even earlier ones." (Zilog's support forum posting)
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09:44:46 <fizzie> "Please, I'm on my knees here and the mental health of our entire development force is on the verge of collapse.
09:44:49 <fizzie> We need working software, we needed it 5 years ago, things went critical a long time ago and has only been getting worse ever since."
09:45:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:2: lexical error at character '\10189'
09:45:21 <fizzie> This post was 2 years, 7 months ago, and received no replies.
09:46:27 <mroman_> why the hell is this in German?
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09:50:10 <fizzie> > (\x → x ∷ Int) 42 -- it does *some* Unicode out of the box; sadly, AIUI λ counts as an alphabetic character.
09:51:27 <mroman_> but my terminal doesn't correctly display three nor two consecutive equals signs
09:51:50 <mroman_> ^- that f is displayed IN the three consecutive equals signs
09:52:57 <fizzie> I just get a rectangle. :/
09:53:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘∞’
09:53:55 <lambdabot> Plugin `eval' failed with: Enum.toEnum{Word8}: tag (8734) is outside of bounds (0,255)
09:54:27 <lambdabot> .L.hs:183:7: Not in scope: data constructor ‘Infinity’
09:54:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘∞’
09:55:21 <fizzie> It's an operator, I guess.
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09:57:19 <HackEgo> U+221E INFINITY \ UTF-8: e2 88 9e UTF-16BE: 221e Decimal: ∞ \ ∞ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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09:57:25 <fizzie> See, category: symbol.
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10:01:21 <fizzie> > let ℵ₀ = 1/0 in ℵ₀ -- will this make the resident mathematicians cry?
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10:06:57 <lambdabot> Plugin `eval' failed with: Enum.toEnum{Word8}: tag (8734) is outside of bounds (0,255)
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10:07:22 <mroman_> ∞ is cleary a Constant of some sort and not an operator
10:08:13 <HackEgo> U+03C0 GREEK SMALL LETTER PI \ UTF-8: cf 80 UTF-16BE: 03c0 Decimal: π \ π (Π) \ Uppercase: U+03A0 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
10:08:26 <fizzie> That's a letter, that will work fine.
10:11:30 <fizzie> Whoops, that should've been ℤ.
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10:11:43 <fizzie> I guess there's still no undef that wouldn't wipe out everything at once.
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10:18:36 <b_jonas> I think you can redeclare values, not tycons
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10:56:06 <boily> for once it wasn't even fungot who said the v-word.
10:56:06 <fungot> boily: 3) load the timer latch, while attenuating at the first byte to it whenever you are happy with your computer with the get statement to add some special screen editing capabilities. the
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10:57:19 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> Is it possible that from a system of square Wang tiles you can make an equivalent system of triangular Wang tiles if you add more colors? <-- it seems to me you could just split each square along the diagonal and give the diagonal edges a unique color for each original square
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11:02:59 <fizzie> oerjan: But wouldn't that be SO BORING.
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11:26:15 <mroman_> fizzie: Aren't you the finn who doesn't speak finnish?
11:27:54 <oerjan> that's shachaf, and his finnishness is fractional.
11:28:43 <mroman_> of people I can annoy with questions about finnish
11:28:52 <HackEgo> cat: finns: No such file or directory
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11:31:34 <oerjan> mroman_: the top/current directory of HackEgo is not the place we put most long-time stuff.
11:32:14 <oerjan> we occasionally purge it of junk
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11:46:38 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.x’, defined at L.hs:187:1
11:46:38 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Debug.SimpleReflect’ at L.hs:119:1-26
11:46:38 <lambdabot> (and originally defined in ‘simple-reflect-0.3.2:De...
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11:47:10 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I think you can redeclare values, not tycons <-- nope
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12:02:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flow chart]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40589&oldid=40576 * Oerjan * (+38) wrongtitle
12:05:28 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:06:04 <mroman_> something like people/swiss people/finns?
12:06:24 <mroman_> people/secretly-german-but-if-someone-asks-im-american
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12:21:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40590&oldid=40588 * Oerjan * (+195) some proofreading
12:21:23 <mroman_> (http://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuchich%C3%A4schtli)
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12:43:53 <mroman_> `learn chuchichäschtli is spoken as ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli
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13:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flow chart]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40591&oldid=40589 * Ehird * (-4) righttitle
13:23:04 <elliott_> (it'll only accept arguments that are a valid link to that page when enclosed in [[]], basically; it's what {{lowercase}} uses)
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14:02:45 <elliott_> "Money on the internet, be it Visa, Mastercard, Paypal or others, is not easily programmable. It necessitates authorizations from a central server and third parties take commissions. It seems unimaginable to make the above process automatic: creating a bank account that can be filled up by users and which is emptied when a condition concerning a Coq proof is met." ???????
14:03:16 <elliott_> nobody has ever made a website that allows people to contribute money to a goal which is then cashed out to someone when a condition is met
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14:15:56 <mroman_> Not using Coq proofs probably
14:16:00 <mroman_> there's stuff like kickstartet though
14:16:29 <mroman_> although you have to pay the money before the condition is met
14:16:40 <oerjan> i'd have made a joke now if my brain hadn't refused to remember the word "kickstarter"
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14:22:10 <J_Arcane> elliott_: Oh man, I found that article; serious koolaid ...
14:22:47 <elliott_> I mean sure when it gets into more decentralised stuff that's something cryptocoins actually have an advantage in.
14:23:15 <elliott_> but the proof market thing is basically just... kickstarter with changed conditions.
14:24:31 <J_Arcane> Yeah. Real World bounties like that are put up all the time; IIRC there's still a prize for Fermat's.
14:25:01 <oerjan> um fermat's was solved.
14:25:10 <oerjan> or are they asking for a simpler proof
14:25:33 <J_Arcane> Naw, disregard me then, I didn't know that.
14:25:55 <oerjan> yeah it's only been nearly 20 years.
14:25:58 <elliott_> fermat's last was solved before I was born
14:27:24 <J_Arcane> I think I may have it confused with something else; or had incorrect information re: acceptance of proofs. Also I am not a mathematician. My humble apologies.
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14:27:42 * elliott_ not trying to pile-on or belittle, just remarking
14:28:06 <oerjan> try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems hth
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14:39:56 <J_Arcane> elliott_: Yeah, it's cool. My familiarity with that stuff is pretty poor.
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14:50:41 <mroman_> My lecturer said that all unsolved problem are equivalent to the SAT-Problem
14:52:08 <oerjan> very very vaguely maybe
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14:53:57 <Bike> sat is solved, it's just that it takes forever
14:55:48 <Bike> if you found a correspondence between 3-sat and hilbert's 16th i would be impressed
14:56:28 <oerjan> well the idea is that you could search for proofs
14:56:54 <oerjan> but you have to assume short enough proofs exist
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14:58:01 * oerjan suddenly realizes the trick for getting A006520 down to ... well still one char too much to tie the best
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15:01:14 <elliott_> mroman_: unsolved like large integer factoring or like goldbach's conjecture
15:02:02 <Bike> chemistry nobel is for microscopy, woooooooooooooo or something
15:03:18 <elliott_> "Poll: How long could you survive without income?" ask hacker news: how rich are you
15:03:21 <oerjan> did i mention the medicine nobel went to research in TRONDHEIM
15:03:38 * elliott_ waves a very, very small trondheim flag
15:04:10 <oerjan> 's ok i can use the microscopy from the chemistry nobel to see it
15:04:51 <mroman_> Maybe he meant "equivalent to all unresolved millenium prizes"
15:04:57 <mroman_> 3sat is not on the millenium prize list?
15:05:23 <mroman_> maybe as "P vs. NP - The Beatdown"
15:05:45 <oerjan> mroman_: i rather suspect he has only a vague idea, like that aaronson quote in the wikipedia page
15:06:08 <oerjan> mroman_: it is in a sense true that SAT would allow us to solve anything we can solve at all
15:06:47 <oerjan> *a fast algorithm for SAT
15:07:08 <oerjan> because we can use SAT to search for the solution we'd otherwise take a long time to find
15:07:24 <oerjan> but it still have to be a solution small enough
15:08:09 <oerjan> so it does not apply to unsolved problems for which there only exists a proof solution too large for humanity to test
15:08:32 <oerjan> and it also does not apply to unsolved problems with no solution at all, as long as we put no bound on its size.
15:10:48 <Bike> sometimes solving a problem means more than a yes or no proof, it's kind of a broad thing to ask for
15:11:42 <oerjan> i'm leaving my old solution up so fizzie can see what i did, because i think it's still elegant even if the trick everyone found is shorter
15:14:44 <oerjan> ok now the only golf i haven't either seen or cracked the trick of is the POCKET one
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15:24:14 <oerjan> well of the recent open ones
15:24:48 <mroman_> pretty easy and straightforward actually
15:25:49 <oerjan> ok the thing is, my solution so far that doesn't cheat too much has 39
15:28:01 <oerjan> it does the totally obvious thing.
15:29:02 <mroman_> not obvious enough if it's 39
15:29:24 <mroman_> Do you have a == in your code?
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15:30:04 <oerjan> ...why would i want a '\v'
15:30:29 <mroman_> well I can construct easily a 39B solution by replacing something with '\v' instead
15:30:57 <mroman_> but '@' is shorter than '\v' for that purpose
15:31:48 <oerjan> my 39 b solution is much more obvious than that hth
15:32:06 <oerjan> it's like the thing you'd do if you weren't trying to golf at all
15:32:30 <oerjan> isLower isn't a Prelude function.
15:32:45 <elliott_> oerjan: couldn't you use SAT to search for a proof that a solution exists?
15:32:51 <elliott_> in the case that any solution would be too big to check.
15:33:02 <mroman_> I have a 55B solution with import Data.Char
15:33:02 <elliott_> if not even _that_ fits in human sizes, then we'd never solve it anyway.
15:33:18 <oerjan> elliott_: um a proof that a proof exists counts as a proof
15:33:42 <elliott_> oerjan: well I meant it sounded like you'd use SAT to find solutions to some criteria where the question is whether any such thing exists
15:33:52 <elliott_> and you said that wouldn't work if any such things would be far too big.
15:33:57 <tromp> what is the specification of the problem you're golfing?
15:34:09 <elliott_> but you could just search for a proof that such a solution exists, instead. since that's what humans would be doing anyway.
15:34:15 <mroman_> oh well I have a 43B solution as well
15:34:15 <oerjan> elliott_: there may be problems whose proofs are bigger than the size of the universe
15:34:16 <elliott_> possibly I completely misinterpreted you.
15:34:31 <elliott_> oerjan: right. in which case it doesn't matter if they're on the millenium prize list or not, because we will never solve them
15:34:43 <oerjan> in fact there's a theorem that such things exist.
15:36:20 <oerjan> ok i got 38 by blatantly cheating.
15:36:32 <Taneb> Help I have bought a Haskell-relevant domain name
15:37:08 <Bike> use it for a snobol fansite
15:37:12 <int-e> hmm. that reminds me of http://foldl.com/ and http://foldr.com/
15:37:57 <mroman_> there's no such thing as cheating on anagol
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15:44:38 <oerjan> mroman_: i think it is cheating when you make a program that doesn't work on obvious test cases that weren't included.
15:45:14 <oerjan> and i had thought that you're really supposed to append (cheating) or such if you do...
15:46:31 <oerjan> and this problem has cheating on two levels. obvious cheating is using the fact that no test case contains other capital letters.
15:46:53 <oerjan> more subtly, shouldn't the letters POCKET _really_ appear in order to be removed? :P
15:47:57 <oerjan> now i was trying to find a solution that only cheated on the subtle part, and that gave me 39.
15:48:24 <oerjan> (i didn't really expect anyone else to worry about that.)
15:49:30 <oerjan> then if i cheat on the first part too, 38 is easy.
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16:04:41 <tromp> isLower is approximately (>'z') ?!
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16:23:55 <Taneb> tl;dr: I mentioned that I kind of wanted some sort of web presence to one of my friends
16:24:16 <Taneb> He suggested (as I had offered to help him Haskell earlier) I get haskellhero.uk
16:24:25 <Taneb> Now I have that and I am figuring out how the hell I set up a website
16:25:21 <dianne> what do you intend to put there...
16:26:35 <dianne> my idea: a flash guitar hero clone but with logicians instead of music
16:27:05 <zzo38> How does that work?
16:27:21 <Taneb> dianne, I will probably make it into a Haskell blog
16:28:13 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 30m 54s ago: <zzo38> Is it possible that from a system of square Wang tiles you can make an equivalent system of triangular Wang tiles if you add more colors? <-- it seems to me you could just split each square along the diagonal and give the diagonal edges a unique color for each original square
16:28:32 <zzo38> oerjan: It is also what I thought, to.
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17:24:48 <Taneb> Trivia: I am not very good at things
17:28:18 * coppro is currently in a passive-aggressive nick fight with someone
17:28:35 <coppro> I own Cu (because copper, get it?), and this person does not seem to understand how nickserv works.
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18:02:49 <Gregor> Cu: I have occasionally been known to m̶u̶r̶d̶e̶r̶ ghost pretenders to the Gregor name.
18:04:47 <Gregor> -NickServ- Last addr : dlopen@libdl.so
18:05:33 <elliott_> those striked out letters get dsisplayed in a different, noticeably bigger font here.
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18:14:42 <Cu> Gregor: I ghosted em 5 times in as many minutes
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18:41:48 <Gregor> Cu: Maybe you should sockpuppet Cu so you don't have to have an unrecognized nick.
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18:49:15 <coppro> I'm hoping I held it long enough
18:49:19 <coppro> if it becomes a problem, I will
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19:23:08 <Taneb> nortti, one man play in another channel/
19:23:54 <nortti> Taneb: nah, lawspeaker is the nick I assume when untangling the law code of #osdev-offtopic
19:24:20 <nortti> and ^ was to check to see it is was available, after shikhin assumed [
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21:11:36 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/securetips
21:12:17 <Taneb> How can I tell what version of glibc I have installed?
21:13:57 <fizzie> `run echo -e 'char *gnu_get_libc_version(void); \n int main(void) { puts(gnu_get_libc_version()); }' | gcc -o /tmp/x -x c - && /tmp/x
21:14:03 <fizzie> Straight from the horse's mouth.
21:14:14 <fizzie> (Your package manager probably knows it too.)
21:15:52 <fizzie> `run echo -e '#include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { char buf[1024]; confstr(_CS_GNU_LIBC_VERSION, buf, sizeof buf); puts(buf); }' | gcc -o /tmp/x -x c - && /tmp/x # alternatively
21:18:50 <Bike> suddenly want to make something where the version is a float
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21:23:02 <Bike> https://twitter.com/drraid/status/451697405529165824 it hurts
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21:28:57 <Taneb> Well, my website has a big "Under construction" on it
21:29:03 <Taneb> well, a small one, I guess
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21:38:47 <Taneb> Now I just need to either get Hakyll working or roll a blog suite from scratch
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22:11:08 <Taneb> I... have just given myself a sticky plaster for the first time
22:11:41 <Taneb> (I nicked my thumb while slicing some buns, just a nick, but it was annoying me)
22:11:58 <Taneb> I am simultaneously adult and very not adult at the same time
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22:15:40 <oerjan> <Taneb> Now I have that and I am figuring out how the hell I set up a website <-- you realize you're now obligated to do it with haskell right?
22:16:20 <Taneb> oerjan, already on it
22:16:48 <Taneb> The current placeholder uses Happstack to serve a static, one-page, next-to-no-content site
22:18:03 <oerjan> which means your website is _already_ fancier than mine, in some sense.
22:25:55 <oerjan> `cc char *gnu_get_libc_version(void); \n int main(void) { puts(gnu_get_libc_version()); }
22:26:25 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa, you can get domains directly under .uk
22:27:42 <Taneb> shachaf, apparently
22:29:06 <shachaf> why would you use haskell to make a website
22:29:52 <Taneb> shachaf, because with that url it'd be a waste not to
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22:49:01 <Sgeo> "Heartbleed is the first real example of being able to download more RAM. "
22:51:40 <Taneb> Sgeo, explanation/
22:52:15 <Sgeo> Heartbleed allows attackers to download data pseudorandomly from a server's memory, iiuc
22:52:28 <Sgeo> Also, @SecureTips is the best twitter account ever
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23:06:33 <Sgeo> "Make sure to initialize memset before using it: memset(&memset, 0, sizeof(memset));"
23:06:44 <Sgeo> Will that actually overrwite the memset function?
23:07:41 <Melvar> Probably the relevant memory page will not be writable even if it will try to.
23:09:15 <shachaf> It's almost certainly undefined behavior.
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23:18:43 <pikhq> It's not just undefined behavior, it's *incredibly* undefined behavior.
23:19:13 <pikhq> C does not require a Von Neumann architecture at all.
23:19:44 <Bicyclidine> good thing too, i've been using it on a harvard microcontroller
23:20:01 <pikhq> To the point that merely casting a function pointer to a void pointer is UB.
23:20:12 <elliott_> so has anyone ever dd'd some data in tmpfs to an unused part of an active swap partition, and then deleted the original (so you have enough memory free) so you can disable the swap (and get the data back by dd'ing from the block device)
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23:20:21 <elliott_> because somehow this actually worked
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23:21:07 <pikhq> Jesus christ that's crazy.
23:21:29 <elliott_> this is what happens when you're like "well, I guess I can just use the entire 500 gigabyte drive as swap for now"
23:23:00 <elliott_> so I could partition the disk, duh
23:23:06 <elliott_> can't do that when you're using it as swap
23:25:11 <elliott_> it's ok, the context makes it less reasonable
23:25:17 <elliott_> but there are logs in the topic if you want to know the context.
23:26:16 <elliott_> the additional fun is partitioning the disk *without* disturbing the data, so you can then activate the /new/ swap, and dd the data back into tmpfs
23:26:19 <oerjan> #esoteric, the channel where you cannot assume that knowing the context of a statement makes it _less_ crazy
23:26:25 <elliott_> haven't quite gotten to that part yet, we'll see
23:26:50 <Bicyclidine> hack the MMU to have it repartition the drive when you need more swap
23:26:55 <pikhq> Least you're not also switching partitioning schemes.
23:27:03 <pikhq> MBR to GPT is probably a pain.
23:27:28 <elliott_> pikhq: I think gdisk can do that conversion?
23:27:51 <pikhq> Can it? Hrm. I'd hate to see the code for it.
23:28:28 <pikhq> It's either going to be filesystem-specific or rather slow and painful to do.
23:29:02 <elliott_> for those following along at home, the data is actually a custom-made linux install live ISO configured to allow access via ssh, and the next step is to make a partition to hold it so I can install a syslinux that loads the ISO as a ramdisk
23:29:17 <elliott_> and then reboot, ssh in, and repartition the drive /again/, and install linux
23:29:25 <pikhq> (the GPT headers go past where an MBR partition is likely to start)
23:29:34 <Bicyclidine> have you considered becoming an actor on CSI or something
23:29:53 <Bicyclidine> "wait, if i just dd the custom live iso into swap... i'm in"
23:29:58 <elliott_> dear ISPs: if your rescue system can boot an ubuntu ISO, why not just let me give you another ISO to boot instead, it would save me so much effort
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23:32:48 <elliott_> also dear linux distros: it'd be nice if I could, like, pass an ssh public key on the kernel commandline and have your live installation media start sshd and give root that key
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23:37:35 <elliott_> pikhq: have you ever compiled syslinux?
23:37:47 <elliott_> you seem a likely person to ask
23:38:24 <pikhq> Y'know, I think I have.
23:38:48 <elliott_> ...was it a pain? I guess it's likely to involve toolchain fuss with all the freestandingness.
23:39:28 <pikhq> On a scale from 1 to 10, where 1 is musl and 10 is Perl cross-compiling, it's about a 2.
23:39:44 <elliott_> wow, tell me about perl cross-compilation
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23:42:30 <pikhq> You need to hand produce a config.sh, have Perl installed, and have the target you want to build for up, running, with sshd, and a reasonable toolchain.
23:43:12 <pikhq> Yes, in order to *cross compile* you need to be able to *natively compile* as well.
23:43:21 <elliott_> ...why even bother cross compiling?
23:43:28 <Bicyclidine> i don't think even sbcl is that bad, and it literally compiles itself twice.
23:43:59 <pikhq> elliott_: Well, maybe you like pounding nails in your eyes.
23:44:55 <pikhq> Perl's build system is perhaps the worst to exist in a common project, BTW.
23:45:24 <pikhq> Oh yeah! Also, Perl's build system depends on Perl.
23:45:40 <Bicyclidine> i think cmucl uses self-modifying code during build, but it's hardly common
23:46:26 <pikhq> When I was doing bootstrap-linux, it was Perl that gave me the most trouble, not GCC.
23:46:52 <pikhq> (note that Perl is a build dependency of Linux)
23:46:59 <elliott_> how far are we to vanilla kernels working with clang?
23:47:10 <elliott_> there's been stuff merged recently, right?
23:47:14 <pikhq> No idea; not checked in like a year.
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01:10:28 <boily> musl? is that like asl, but with more mu?
01:14:42 <elliott_> can you hex-edit patch an ISO, or does it have too much checksumming?
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01:31:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: musl is an alternative libc for Linux.
01:31:36 <pikhq> Its goal is to be a suitable replacement for glibc and uclibc.
01:31:47 <pikhq> And be reasonable and simple.
01:33:07 <pikhq> It's definitely the best libc.
01:46:18 <elliott_> does musl work well with C++ yet?
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05:54:21 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I wanted something that someone could potentially run as-is in their own system, and `cc is not that.
06:02:11 <Sgeo> Objective-C uses... C style varargs. Almost forgot about those
06:06:50 <Sgeo> Is there a ... deep reason C does varargs the way it does?
06:09:23 <fizzie> Many quirks of <stdarg.h> are probably explained by a desire to make it easy to retrofit to an existing implementation, at least.
06:10:05 <b_jonas> Sgeo: because it was easy to implement back on very small machines, before function prototypes in C even existed
06:11:22 <Bike> it's kind of funny how instead of apply you have a bunch of functions that are like some other function except they take a va_list
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06:12:01 <fizzie> <stdarg.h> does derive from the older (not-standard-C) <varargs.h>, which was slightly different, and designed for old-style function declarations.
06:13:47 <Sgeo> Is it possible to mak a va_list in any way other than calling a function once with every argument at the same time?
06:15:27 <mroman_> @tell oerjan You're wrong. That's the way you golf on sites like codegolf.stackexchange.com but not on anagol
06:16:32 <mroman_> @tell oerjan It's part of the solution to find untested cases so that you maybe can get an even shorter program
06:17:09 <fizzie> va_copy is arguably a way to make a va_list, but that's not what you meant.
06:17:21 <mroman_> @tell oerjan anagol is about writing the shortest program that passes the testcases. That's it. Nobody is asking you to write a program that does more than that ;)
06:17:28 <Sgeo> In Idris, would you also need at least one argument in order for a variadic function to be useful? In that, the function that determines the type that the function returns needs to be given something
06:17:57 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdarg.h> \n #define S(x) S_(x) \n #define S_(x) #x \n int main(void) { puts(S(va_arg(ap, sometype))); }
06:17:58 <HackEgo> __builtin_va_arg(ap,sometype)
06:18:08 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a tricky macro. :/
06:18:26 <Bike> yeah, i was disappointed when i looked that up.
06:19:28 <Sgeo> http://c-faq.com/varargs/funcptr.html
06:19:34 <mroman_> @tell oerjan Some solutions for some anagol challenges even use random() (i.e. rand(2) for challenges where you have to answer with yes/no). Other submissions (e.g. python) make use a hash function and then you just brute-force some crazy magic-formula that gives you the answer based on the hash of the input.
06:19:35 <Sgeo> Not even going to try to understand
06:19:52 <Bike> `run echo '#include <stdarg.h>\nva_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c -
06:19:53 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:20: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive [enabled by default] \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 1 3 4 \ # 40 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __builtin_va_list __gnuc_va_list; \ # 102 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linu
06:20:00 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python hash('abc')'
06:20:05 <Bike> `run echo '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c -
06:20:06 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:21: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive [enabled by default] \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 1 3 4 \ # 40 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __builtin_va_list __gnuc_va_list; \ # 102 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linu
06:20:09 <mroman_> `run python -c "hash('abc')"
06:20:14 <mroman_> `run python -c "print hash('abc')"
06:20:16 <Bike> i don't get you, string interpolation
06:20:37 <Bike> `run echo -e '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c -
06:20:38 <HackEgo> # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 1 3 4 \ # 40 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __builtin_va_list __gnuc_va_list; \ # 102 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __gnuc_va_list va_list; \ # 2 "<stdin>" 2 \ _
06:20:50 <fizzie> Though it'll still have lots of cruft; maybe a tail -n 1 too.
06:21:03 <Bike> `run echo -e '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | tail -n 1 | gcc -E -x c -
06:21:04 <HackEgo> # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ va_arg(ap, sometype)
06:21:10 <fizzie> I mean, for the results.
06:21:13 <Bike> oh, right, that's... yeah.
06:21:30 <Bike> `run echo -e '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c - | tail -n 1
06:21:30 <HackEgo> __builtin_va_arg(ap,sometype)
06:22:13 <Bike> anyway, what's the S macro for in ur code, exactly
06:22:24 <mroman_> i.e. for abc def ghc jkl to 1 0 1 0 you can just use hash(x)%2 in python
06:22:35 <fizzie> Stringizing. And it needs the two macro layers not to stringize the argument literally.
06:23:09 <fizzie> It goes approximately S(va_arg(ap, sometype)) -> _S([whatever va_arg expands to]) -> "[whatever va_arg expands to]".
06:23:26 <fizzie> While without S_ it would go S(va_arg(ap, sometype)) -> "va_arg(ap, sometype)".
06:23:27 <Bike> Sgeo: just seems like a combo of C funcptr syntax being insane and the macroexpander running before parsing.
06:24:56 <fizzie> (*(sometype *)__builtin_va_arg((ap), (sometype *)0)) is what happens on the PGI C compiler.
06:25:17 <fizzie> Still no actual pointer arithmetic, but at least it's *something*.
06:27:02 <fizzie> Both ICC and "PathScale EKOPath(tm)" were the same level of boring as GCC.
06:28:01 <Bike> wait, does gcc come with boehm
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06:32:15 <Bike> oh, for the objc runtime.
06:32:55 <mroman_> !bfjoust snail (>(-)*12>(+)*9)*5[>[(-)*8[+].]+](<)*9([(+)*9[-]]+>)*-1
06:32:56 <zemhill> mroman_.snail: points 1.67, score 22.37, rank 16/47 (+21)
06:33:43 <mroman_> submitting this caused my other bot rushit to climb +30!
06:35:58 <fizzie> Maybe the bot's gotten confused.
06:37:14 <fizzie> I'll restart it to make sure the interpreter has exactly those programs that are stored in the files.
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06:37:55 <fizzie> Okay, now it does not start up, thanks to crashing in the matrix library. I *really* should take care of that at some point, but don't again have time now.
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06:38:35 <fizzie> !bfjoust refresh_reports <
06:38:36 <zemhill> fizzie.refresh_reports: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
06:38:51 <mroman_> !bfjoust search_and_destroy (>(+)*11>(-)*13)*3(>[>>>>([(+)*7[-]]+>)*-1]-)*-1
06:38:52 <zemhill> mroman_.search_and_destroy: points 5.67, score 26.39, rank 10/47 (+12)
06:39:23 <fizzie> That made refresh_reports go up +33.
06:39:46 <fizzie> !bfjoust refresh_reports .<
06:39:46 <zemhill> fizzie.refresh_reports: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-33)
06:39:55 <mroman_> Then there's something terribly broken :D
06:40:16 <fizzie> I have no idea what, though. It's not as if it's a very complicated piece of software.
06:40:16 <mroman_> I wonder if one can abuse this to get to #1
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06:40:30 <mroman_> It would be cool to have <. on the major programs list :P
06:41:06 <AndoDaan> Writing an interpreter in burlesque is not as easy as i thought.
06:41:24 <mroman_> AndoDaan: mainly because blsq has no print
06:41:25 <AndoDaan> not that i thought it would be easy with my current level of skill.
06:41:41 <mroman_> otherwise the best way to write interpreters is to convert stuff into burlesque and then call e!
06:41:46 <AndoDaan> i just put output into the state stack.
06:42:13 <mroman_> how long is your deadfish now?
06:42:39 <AndoDaan> but the one i'm writing is for the ///
06:43:03 <Sgeo> "Objective-C's memory management system is called reference counting. All you have to do is keep track of your references, and the runtime does the actual freeing of memory. "
06:45:30 <mroman_> h isn't a deadfish instruction?
06:45:46 <AndoDaan> yeah, he uses it to terminate the program
06:46:09 <AndoDaan> kinda silly cuz it's always the last instrucction.
06:46:48 <AndoDaan> (how did teebee write a 6B blsq solution to what have i got in my pocket??)
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06:57:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: I think for any ascii letter there's at least one programming language that's claimed that name.
06:58:33 <b_jonas> the space of short extensions is bad too. there's at least two conflicting uses for .pl .m .obj extensions.
07:00:47 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:05:29 <b_jonas> and 2 byte long gs2 implementation? that sounds crazy
07:07:02 <AndoDaan> I don't know how it's possible.
07:07:28 <b_jonas> the first char is probably O so let's brute force the second char
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08:05:00 <Sgeo> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Asksql
08:05:16 <Sgeo> Does this actually count as vulnerable to SQL injection attacks?
08:15:37 <int-e> Hehe. It's an SQL injection plugin for sufficiently privileged users.
08:17:05 <int-e> I find the warning appropriate, people really should not use this plugin unless they understand what they're doing. Which includes everybody to whom "SQL injection" is just a scary buzzword.
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08:56:25 <fizzie> "You are advised against using it until this security issue is resolved." Makes one wonder how they're going to "resolve" it, given the whole concept.
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10:19:00 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4h 24m 38s ago: I wanted something that someone could potentially run as-is in their own system, and `cc is not that.
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 3m 32s ago: You're wrong. That's the way you golf on sites like codegolf.stackexchange.com but not on anagol
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 2m 27s ago: It's part of the solution to find untested cases so that you maybe can get an even shorter program
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 1m 38s ago: anagol is about writing the shortest program that passes the testcases. That's it. Nobody is asking you to write a program that does more than that ;)
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 3h 59m 24s ago: Some solutions for some anagol challenges even use random() (i.e. rand(2) for challenges where you have to answer with yes/no). Other submissions (e.g. python) make use a hash function and then you just brute-force some crazy magic-formula that gives you the answer based on the hash of the input.
10:19:21 <fizzie> That was very confrontational.
10:19:49 <fizzie> Also I was under the impression that you were supposed to add a "(luck)" suffix or something if you wrote something that works every N'th time.
10:19:56 <oerjan> fizzie: just another brick in the wall
10:20:15 <oerjan> fizzie: that was my impression too. so why doesn't mroman_ know about it.
10:21:30 <oerjan> and i've seen at least one person mark their submission with (cheat)
10:22:26 <fizzie> I've seen that too, but maybe it's not such a strong custom, at least unless it's really blatant? Clearly there should be a set of rules and an EULA you need to click through about this.
10:22:29 <oerjan> of course the fact that the site itself doesn't _mention_ that stuff leads to it easily being forgotten.
10:23:54 <oerjan> #anagol seems not to have any publically /list-able info
10:24:25 <fizzie> I've been thinking about joining, but I don't really play golf.
10:24:50 <fizzie> Do you happen to know if they have some automated IRC-feedbackery about things happening on the site?
10:26:25 <oerjan> i'm not on the channel
10:31:05 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ [citation needed]
10:32:25 <oerjan> i suppose the name "anarchy" does tend to support it, sort of.
10:33:41 <oerjan> codegolf.com is not loading, i wanted to see if they have such a custom so maybe people are confusing anagol with it
10:37:04 <fizzie> "The Sun's surface is relatively cool. It's hotter than, like, Phoenix,[citation needed] --" (recent what-if)
10:41:56 <oerjan> a burning phoenix is pretty hot, i assume
10:46:43 <boily> probably some carbon-based flame temperature like, around a 1000 °C. so pretty hot, but not quite hot.
10:47:43 <boily> (if it's a fatty phœnix, then 800 or 900 degrees only.)
10:47:59 <myname> lol @ random brute force golfing
10:49:01 <oerjan> myname: did you hear about anagol's pid setting form
10:49:33 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/setpid.html
10:49:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh, you mean you golf a large number to $$ in perl?
10:50:28 <oerjan> basically some golfers, especially in perl, made programs that depended on the pid being exactly right. which caused a strain on servers so they simply let people set the desired pid explicitly
10:51:01 <b_jonas> do people also wait a decade to submit a program when the time() is just right?
10:51:19 <fizzie> Ruby's got a similar $$ too, I think.
10:51:23 <oerjan> well most problems have expiry dates
10:51:31 <b_jonas> ok, but in the post-mortem
10:51:37 <oerjan> fizzie: well yeah the form page mentions ruby
11:08:59 <b_jonas> why doesn't the anagolf site have metapost or metafont as a language?
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11:20:48 <Taneb> I feel like entering IOCCC
11:23:54 <b_jonas> how tolerant is anagolf to whitespace differences in output?
11:25:43 <b_jonas> tolerant apparently, to some differences at least
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11:27:45 <fizziew> I was just about to type an answer when my home interwebs broke.
11:28:02 <fizziew> Perhaps another power outage, like yesterday.
11:28:32 <fizziew> In case nobody replied, it's not terribly tolerant: a trailing newline at the end of the output seems fine, but e.g. extra newlines at the ends of lines are not.
11:28:43 <fizziew> Which is annoying from a Forth perspective, because '.' adds a space.
11:31:01 <b_jonas> it accepted a trailing space at the end for me
11:31:11 <b_jonas> at the very end of the output, that is
11:32:55 <mroman_> I think whitespaces at the end of lines will be truncated
11:33:04 <mroman_> and I think it doesn't matter if stdout ends with \n or not
11:33:30 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 2m 24s ago: [citation needed]
11:34:48 <oerjan> mroman_: no, for the fact this actually _is_ the anagolf culture
11:35:07 <oerjan> since i've heard before that adding (cheat) to your username is custom
11:35:21 <mroman_> You only append () when you base your answer on somebody else's.
11:35:27 <mroman_> like for post-mortem stuff
11:35:49 <oerjan> mroman_: also why is none of this written up on the website i say your citation is not reliable hth
11:36:01 <oerjan> (not on the hint website either)
11:37:02 <mroman_> at least for certain tricks like
11:37:08 <mroman_> don't worry if it crashes with garbage to stderr
11:37:17 <mroman_> https://sites.google.com/site/codegolfingtips/python
11:37:27 <oerjan> well sure. you had that in the haskell tips.
11:37:32 <mroman_> "cheating" would only by stuff like finding some way to create state on the server
11:37:46 <mroman_> but anagol is specifically about passing the testcases
11:38:05 <oerjan> but it DOESN'T SAY SO ANYWHERE
11:38:07 <mroman_> oerjan: there are also "embed" solutions
11:38:14 <mroman_> like... if the testcase output is too short
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11:38:23 <mroman_> people don't bother solving the actual problem but rather on compressing the output
11:38:43 <mroman_> (It's generally considered bad to provide too short testcases)
11:39:04 <mroman_> oerjan: I can't give you citations
11:39:18 <mroman_> I can only say that I've been golfing for years on anagol and I'm 24/7 in #anagol
11:39:19 <oerjan> mroman_: ok at this point i'm no longer doubting this is the case but i'm feeling like going on a killing rampage until someone actually puts it very clearly and explicitly on the frontpage.
11:39:38 <oerjan> (i'm not having a good day, see)
11:40:19 <mroman_> oerjan: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Equations/tails_1308465224&pl
11:40:21 <oerjan> (neighbor's dog again)
11:40:53 <mroman_> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Equations/leonid_1308457504&rb
11:40:59 <mroman_> these solutions just select random lines of the input
11:41:01 <oerjan> that's not a clear and explicit explanation and it's hidden in a problem please report for termination hth
11:41:22 <fizziew> mroman_: It's definitely not true about trailin whitespace at the ends of lines (other than the last).
11:41:36 <oerjan> also stop linking irrelevant things i might snap and ban you hth
11:41:48 <mroman_> oerjan: Did I offend you in some way?
11:42:10 <oerjan> i said i'm having a bad day. sorry.
11:42:34 <oerjan> once i start feeling this annoyed, everything else annoys me too.
11:43:30 <oerjan> i've complained to the neighbors several times and each time it gets better for a few days then slowly starts getting worse again.
11:44:47 <mroman_> Does it bark loudly at night?
11:44:58 <oerjan> no, it is never barking when they're home.
11:46:09 <oerjan> but i also have a completely broken sleeping schedule, which i don't see anything good coming from mentioning to them, so frequently i _am_ trying to sleep when it's barking.
11:46:58 <oerjan> but i'm not sure whether it grates on me more when i'm trying to sleep (i think i can sleep through at least _some_ of it) or when i am awake and trying to use the pc
11:47:38 <oerjan> i don't have a 24 hour schedule, it keeps rotating
11:49:20 <mroman_> damn gs2 is annoying me as well :)
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11:52:26 <fizziew> Oh, this time it came up on its own.
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11:54:25 <mroman_> for the purpose AndoDaan used it
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11:56:29 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
11:56:36 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
11:56:44 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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11:57:05 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
12:02:36 <mroman_> Well It would take forever to complete
12:03:23 <mroman_> !blsq "Hi ~ there ~ you ~"{1 "Hans" {0 0}}f~
12:03:23 <blsqbot> "Hi 1 there Hans you [0, 0]"
12:06:24 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
12:08:51 <mroman_> oerjan: I btw. like that at anagol compared to stackexchange
12:09:12 <mroman_> codegolf.stackexchange has these weird prosa description of problems everybody interprets a little bit differently
12:09:30 <mroman_> they don't supply testcases (sometimes they do)
12:09:46 <mroman_> and there's no automated verification that your program does what you claim it to do
12:09:56 <mroman_> there's no real scoring mechanism
12:10:17 <oerjan> right, you'd want a test _program_ at least.
12:10:34 <oerjan> if you were to do more strictly than anagolf.
12:10:34 <mroman_> I'm honestly not a huge fan of the $$ thingy
12:10:43 <b_jonas> they should give testcases
12:10:43 <mroman_> also setpid only works for the next submission I think
12:10:56 <mroman_> so if somebody else submits between setpid and your submission you have to do it again
12:11:05 <mroman_> (I think, I don't know for sure)
12:11:21 <oerjan> what they could have done to stop much random cheating is to rerun successful tests a few times
12:11:37 <b_jonas> mroman_: of course. it basically just tries to fork so much the pid becomes the one you want, because pids are only 15 bit long this isn't hard
12:12:29 <oerjan> well ulimit can prevent that
12:12:51 <oerjan> it would be easy to make randomness abuse much harder
12:13:25 <mroman_> yeah. rerunning would counter that to some degree
12:13:45 <mroman_> run it again -> capture stdout
12:13:52 <mroman_> if stdout isn't the same again -> reject
12:14:09 <mroman_> oerjan: just make two runs of a submission
12:14:14 <mroman_> calc the hash of stdout and compare between runs
12:14:24 <mroman_> if hash isn't equal then the solution doesn't always produce the same output
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12:14:35 <b_jonas> mroman_: sure, that could be fine (just probably ignore the whitespaces at the end)
12:14:38 <oerjan> mroman_: well that's equivalent to running the test twice, since intended stdout is fixed anyways
12:15:02 <mroman_> but shinh won't do that ;)
12:15:19 <mroman_> because there are already solutions on anagol doing random stuff
12:15:30 <mroman_> if he were to disallow random now
12:15:41 <mroman_> there will be random solutions you can't beat :)
12:17:53 <oerjan> you could make it an option for new problems, and even default it to true.
12:17:57 <mroman_> Burlesque has no random :D :P
12:18:19 <oerjan> it doesn't? i thought i saw you use random a while ago...
12:20:15 <mroman_> (i.e. you need to provide a hardcoded seed)
12:20:26 <mroman_> at least it's reproducable this way
12:20:45 <mroman_> i.e. resubmitting the same program won't change it's output
12:21:02 <oerjan> they should use ais532's web o'flies to run the programs in a completely predictable environment >:)
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12:22:53 <oerjan> darn i was hoping the dog had finished for the day
12:25:10 <oerjan> grmbl there's no way to add code statistics after the fact if you forget to check the button
12:26:24 <int-e> oerjan: right, you either need to find a better solution or submit under another name.
12:26:39 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?print+numbers+reversed i am wondering if everyone has the exact same solution or if int-e really has found a faster one
12:26:53 <oerjan> (my statistics are identical)
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12:27:24 <oerjan> int-e: do you also use a function starting with a that is only needed for defaulting to work right?
12:27:42 <mroman_> I kinda whish you could replace solutions if they are the same length
12:27:55 <oerjan> mroman_: yeah i tried but it didn't work
12:28:25 <int-e> oerjan: the measurements are flaky. time: 0.011596sec is what I got now
12:28:56 <int-e> oerjan: yes, I do, and it took me a while to find it.
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12:33:10 <oerjan> also what in the world is that Asteriks and Obeliks thing actually _doing_
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12:34:27 <oerjan> i look at the first I/O example and think "oh simple", then i look at the second and think "wait what", then the third and think "wtf"
12:37:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: probably you just have to hard-code the three outputs
12:37:18 <int-e> oerjan: figuring that out is half of the fun
12:37:39 <mroman_> b_jonas: Nope. There's an algorithm behind it
12:37:49 <mroman_> the numbers mean how many * are in a column.
12:38:04 <int-e> oerjan: and it's probably worthwhile, since I do not believe that my solution is optimal
12:38:22 <mroman_> but the output of those column is scewed
12:40:12 <int-e> also that problem would be more enjoyable if the server tolerated trailing spaces
12:40:56 <mroman_> oerjan: To be fair that's kinda an "insider" challenge on #anagol
12:43:30 <mroman_> From time to time it's fun when you even have to first figure out what the hell you're supposed to do
12:44:03 <b_jonas> oh argh, http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Twelve+Days+of+Christmas uses more newlines in the output text than what I output in my old perl script
12:45:57 <b_jonas> this has "true love sent to me", the one I use says "true love gave to me"
12:50:31 <fizzie> Pretty much every problem would be more tolerable with trailing spaces when writing in Forth.
12:50:54 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's an exaggeration. But any "sequence of numbers on separate lines" ones.
12:51:33 <fizzie> (That's funny: everything else here at home automatically boots up after a power outage, except for the completely non-managed "dumb" Ethernet switch, which requires a unplug-replug cycle.)
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13:02:44 <b_jonas> and I've created that old compressed obfu partly by hand and partly by a somewhat obfuscated ruby script that I totally don't understand now
13:02:53 <b_jonas> I'll probably have to write a completely new compressor
13:03:22 <b_jonas> mind you, its comression method sucks for this anyway
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13:05:52 <fizzie> I wonder if there is (or anyone's thought of adding) an "only allow packages with names like this from this repository" option to apt source configuration. I have things like emdebian in my sources.list.d for some cross-compilers, but I'm not terribly comfortable if that means they can replace any package I have with something malicious by publishing a "new version" of it. (I guess OTOH they could just put whatever they want in each of their legit package
13:24:42 <Jafet> If you're worried about actual malice (and not just indistinguishably similar incompetence) packages can already run arbitrary install scripts
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13:28:42 <elliott_> "As of July 2014, updates to the Emdebian distributions ceased. There will be no further updates and no further stable releases." are they even still updating the toolchains?
13:29:38 <mroman_> the safety of servers with unattended-upgrades pretty much relies on the safety of the repository
13:30:12 <mroman_> if somebody can inject something malicious into the official security repos you're pretty much screwed
13:30:32 <mroman_> but I guess that's no different from windows, mac
13:30:43 <quintopia> mroman_: what's your height and mass (in planck units please)
13:31:03 <fizzie> elliott_: I don't know, I haven't used any of that stuff in a while.
13:32:29 <mroman_> .oO (what the hell is a planck unit)
13:33:07 <S1> the minimal measurable distance
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13:41:08 <Jafet> Knuth suggests, in 4.5.1 ex. 15, sabotaging your institution's compiler to replace all floating point operations by floating rational operations. But does any microprocessor have a gcd instruction?
13:45:34 <paul2520> Jafet: what Knuth work is this?
13:45:59 <b_jonas> paul2520: The Art of Computer Programming (duh)
13:46:22 <Jafet> That's from the second book, Seminumerical Algorithms.
13:48:48 <b_jonas> that's the one we call just "Knuth", on account it is the one whose Knuth checks contain only the chapter, not an abbreviation for the name of the book
13:49:08 <paul2520> b_jonas: okay, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
13:49:29 <b_jonas> well, the checks aren't the real reason
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13:54:47 <paul2520> Jafet: I'm not sure if this is the official version, but it shows that problem as ex 14. http://bit.ly/1qp0edF
13:56:06 <mroman_> quintopia: Why do you ask btw?
13:57:41 <Sgeo> There's a pancake-making machine. I used it, ate, but then kind of licked my fingers slightly. I used the pancake machine again, what if someone gets sick because of me :(
13:58:06 <AndoDaan> and you just confessed online.
13:58:40 <mroman_> the CDC will take care of that.
14:01:27 <Sgeo> Is it likely that this is a common occurance, and I should not worry about it too much?
14:02:13 <mroman_> Do you have a deadly disease that can be transmitted via spit?
14:02:17 <mroman_> If not... then it's no big deal
14:03:37 <Sgeo> I have been feeling sniffly. So it's possible I do have a disease. And it could be deadly to elderly persons or the immunocompromised or young children
14:05:10 <mroman_> are you an overly-hygenic person?
14:08:25 <Sgeo> Not when it comes to me personally. But in terms of trying to avoid utensils I'm not about to use, etc., possibly
14:09:51 <Sgeo> Was once at a restaurant with friends. There was a large pretzel. I wanted a piece, but was nervous about touching the parts of the pretzel I wasn't going to take for myself. Was told that that's insane.
14:13:13 <elliott_> the baseline hygiene level of the world would have to be vastly higher for your caution to help the immunocompromised in any way
14:15:36 <elliott_> ("the majority of people are vastly less concerned about such things and are, literally, everywhere" suffices to see this)
14:16:40 <Sgeo> Ok. Kind of sad though
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14:18:42 <elliott_> sure. having a weak immune system isn't great (but there are many not-great things about it beyond pancake machines)
14:19:43 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Is it likely that this is a common occurance, and I should not worry about it too much? <-- merely by my experience of using public toilets, i suggest that people who don't care about hygiene when no one is watching is _frighteningly_ common and might even be a major factor in humanity's inability to efficiently eradicate infectious disease hth
14:22:27 <b_jonas> I think it happens even when people are watching
14:22:36 <elliott_> thanks for the periodic reminder to never use public toilets :p
14:23:34 <b_jonas> for example, touching every bread and bun you're not going to buy seems to be a traditional part of Hungarian culture. that's how we love our bread.
14:25:13 <oerjan> elliott_: admittedly the places i frequent are not _usually_ that messy, but occasionally you see the results of someon not giving a fuck
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14:25:49 <elliott_> in case anyone is still at the edge of their seat, the "ssh install livecd run from ram loaded from the hard disk using syslinux/memdisk installed through the rescue system" plan works perfectly
14:25:58 <J_Arcane> I used to have a drinking buddy with AIDS. He did have to be careful about sharing drinks and so forth, but in general the biggest difficulty was that it meant he really couldn't go to the loo anywhere but home.
14:26:08 <J_Arcane> Certainly not in the horrowshow that passes for a bar toilet.
14:26:16 <b_jonas> elliott_: http://thedoghousediaries.com/3286
14:27:30 <elliott_> also the swap thing wasn't really necessary, I could have just partitioned beforehand and I had to regenerate the ISO after that anyway :/
14:28:07 <oerjan> yeah, bars. this gets at least an order of magnitude worse around overly drunk people, of course.
14:28:45 <elliott_> a good solution is to not go to bars
14:32:35 <Gregor> oerjan: "people who don't care about hygiene when no one is watching is _frighteningly_ common" // I have a slightly more positive view. In a public toilet, if there is a slight miscalculation, a small misaim, nobody is going to clean it up. Because the moment you think to do so, you then think "how many OTHER people peed on the rim here? Ew." In a private toilet, if I miss, I'm going to grab some toilet paper and clean it up.
14:33:06 <Gregor> Multiply one drop of missed urine by 100 patrons, and nasty.
14:35:02 <Gregor> It is the very revulsion to cleaning a mess that isn't our own that causes the mess that isn't our own.
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14:37:09 <elliott_> I hear there are people paid to clean up public messes
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14:48:16 <oerjan> hu@loo, the hungarian public toilet entertainment system
14:48:21 <mroman_> because of his decreased immune system?
14:48:41 <oerjan> sounds like a good bet
14:56:36 <elliott_> it does stand for "acquired immune deficiency syndrome" :)
15:00:28 <mroman_> He could have also refrained from using those toilets out of fear to infect others
15:00:49 <oerjan> but then he wouldn't be worried about whether they were dirty
15:01:04 <elliott_> HIV is transmitted by three main routes: sexual contact, exposure to infected body fluids or tissues, and from mother to child during pregnancy, delivery, or breastfeeding (known as vertical transmission).[2] There is no risk of acquiring HIV if exposed to feces, nasal secretions, saliva, sputum, sweat, tears, urine, or vomit unless these are contaminated with blood.[29]
15:01:15 <elliott_> maybe if he jerked off in them.
15:03:07 <Bike> or if he had ass cuts
15:03:49 <elliott_> http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/745000/745573_1307997462727_160.png?v=1307997467
15:04:36 <elliott_> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78104000/gif/_78104505_deletekey2.gif I love stock photos of delete keys being hit dramatically
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15:20:10 <J_Arcane> mroman_: Sanitation is very important when you are immunocompromised. The average bar isn't necessarily as nasty as you'd think, except for the bathroom, which is sometimes putting your life in your hands even if you don't have a completely fucked immune system.
15:21:55 <elliott_> what about pancake machines :p
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15:30:26 <J_Arcane> elliott_: Weirdly, I actually have heard some bad things about those ...
15:30:57 <J_Arcane> I can't remember what they are in any detail though, so I won't stick by them. ;)
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15:31:23 <elliott_> okay. don't worry, Sgeo. they know the pancakes aren't safe.
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15:34:12 <J_Arcane> I seem to recall there were some issues with the temperature at which the automated machines kept the batter.
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15:47:52 <diginet> why did Algol 60 have call by name?
15:50:11 <Bike> so knuth's ridiculous test would be properly ridiculous
15:55:45 <diginet> it just seems so bizarre, for an imperative language
15:56:37 <J_Arcane> Some 10 or 15 years back, I think, in the early 00's when I was still cooking for a living.
15:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, i thought even then there were effective treatments
15:58:10 <J_Arcane> He was on treatments I think, but even so you have to be careful with the more egregious environs.
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17:29:47 <zzo38> Yesterday I have heard some important insights about Christian trinity. His logic was imperfect and oversimplified, but this may be to make it easier for other people as well as to make it to be Christian. He mentioned that just as a man may be a husband, a son, and a father, so: [1] God created man in His own image/likeness. [2] Men have trinities. [3] Therefore, God is also trinity.
17:30:04 <zzo38> Of course there are things wrong with that. I can mention what I can see, at least, if you want.
17:31:18 <zzo38> For one thing, [1] is too vague, and also is irrelevant to the argument as I shall point out.
17:33:47 <zzo38> Also, [2] is too oversimplified. A man is not only a husband, sun, and father, but may also be an uncle, cousin, employer, employee, friend, etc. And then that only gets to some relations with other people; there are many more things! Just as any other lifeform, a man consists of a collection of cells, and just as any other matter, a man consists of a collection of atoms. Furthermore, other things also can be described as many different functions a
17:35:09 <elliott_> cut off at "different functions a"
17:35:17 <zzo38> Furthermore, other things also can be described as many different functions as different ways!
17:43:25 <zzo38> It doesn't conclude that, either.
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17:45:34 <J_Arcane> I have a whole passage introducing a novella I've been tinkering with on how [1] there is so often grossly misunderstood ...
17:46:06 <zzo38> J_Arcane: You do? I didn't know you had such a thing.
17:46:56 <J_Arcane> I haven't actually posted it yet; it's still an unfinished draft.
17:47:38 <J_Arcane> I've long held that that passage more likely refers to the creative impulse, something largely unique to people.
17:50:12 <zzo38> That is an interesting view.
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17:53:39 <quintopia> i've long held it's more likely the creation went in the other direction
17:53:46 <zzo38> What are your religious views anyways? (I am curious to know)
17:55:15 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, in a more literal sense, yes man created God in his own image, but I would also say that GOD extremely indirectly "created" everything else too. Just as the natural processes of evolution and other stuff can also create a man who can also create scientific theories to account for such thing.
17:55:25 <mroman_> diginet: because call by name is awesome
17:56:17 <zzo38> mroman_: I like real macros though
17:57:05 <quintopia> zzo38: it's not clear what you mean by "GOD" at this point though, and I'm sure, whatever it is, it doesn't add any explanatory power to our scientific theories
17:57:06 <zzo38> I think it is generally better than an implementation of a "call by name", though
17:57:17 <zzo38> quintopia: I agree with that completely.
17:58:15 <elliott_> god created man in his own image, and lo, /home/god/human.png was created
17:58:19 <zzo38> I never claimed it would add any power to scientific theories.
17:58:48 <zzo38> elliott_: O, you interpret it like that...
17:58:49 <quintopia> elliott_: can god please make an osx image that runs virtualized on my processor
18:00:07 <Sgeo> What's wrong with 10.9 for that use case?
18:01:43 <quintopia> well, the main problem is my AMD A8-5500 APU
18:01:52 <elliott_> running OS X virtualised is very underwhelming.
18:02:02 <elliott_> the graphics performance is awful (no acceleration whatsoever) and stuff barely works
18:02:36 <quintopia> Niresh supposedly runs on AMD, but the boot fails on virtualbox, and installation freezes on vmware, unless you unlock the osx vm stuff, in which case it just won't boot at all.
18:02:40 <zzo38> But what if you simply need to run it and it doesn't matter the speed?
18:03:07 <quintopia> all i want it for is to be able to build executables for an osx environment
18:03:13 <elliott_> maybe try http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~somlo/OSXKVM/
18:03:27 <J_Arcane> elliott_: heh. the book actually starts with a code snippet: (begin (define universe (void))) ;) It's sort of a "American Gods through the lens of programming" thing. No idea yet if it's going anywhere.
18:03:31 <elliott_> but I think it'll always be painful with AMD.
18:04:43 <elliott_> quintopia: honestly, it's probably going to be more than $599 of fuss, so I'd just get a mac mini. but it looks like you should be able to use clang to cross-compile for OS X, at least; https://github.com/tpoechtrager/osxcross.
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18:05:58 <Sgeo> Does anyone buy Macs because they prefer Cocoa?
18:06:18 <elliott_> do people buy macs so they can program for macs? ...sure
18:06:51 <J_Arcane> Well, I have noticed that it seems like people who are really good at UI design all seem to wind up developing for Macs.
18:08:05 <Bicyclidine> maybe they get tired of thinking about xlib
18:08:33 <elliott_> the mac has a very long history/culture of UI design and HIG, yeah
18:09:05 <elliott_> I mean, that's basically what its success was built on: you could point at things instead of typing on a VT or whatever!
18:09:12 <J_Arcane> Like, I would kill for Boxer or OpenEmu on Windows. . .
18:09:28 <J_Arcane> And yeah, that and the number of graphics designers who're already using the platform.
18:09:38 <zzo38> elliott_: Well, and now you can even do both.
18:09:57 <elliott_> zzo38: sadly macs do not ship with physical VTs :(
18:10:00 <Sgeo> Boxer? OpenEmu?
18:10:10 <elliott_> but they totally should!! free vt100 with every purchase
18:10:27 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes, but I suppose if you have one you can use it, and if not you can still use a vt100 terminal emulator; it has a built-in terminal emulator which is mostly compatible these days.
18:10:44 <zzo38> (Not perfectly VT100 compatible, but good enough for nearly all uses today, at least.)
18:10:55 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Emu frontends, for DosBox and Multisystem, respectively.
18:11:00 <Bicyclidine> i'm honestly weirded out by the whiplash between "macs have good interfaces" and "BUT WHAT ABOUT VT"
18:11:39 <zzo38> Bycyclidine: Don't you think Amiga might have had a better interface? I haven't ever used Amiga, but from what I have read seems better than the original Macintosh computers
18:12:04 <J_Arcane> Boxer is a drag and drop frontend: Drag zip/folder of a DOS game onto icon, instantly creates shortcut, accurate conf, etc etc. And all years before GOG.com came along at that.
18:12:11 <zzo38> Amiga combined a GUI with a command-line interface as well as doing many other things, such as AREXX
18:12:30 <Bicyclidine> i think my only experience with mac gaming is marathon
18:12:49 <fizzie> That paper airplane Mac OS game was nice.
18:12:54 <zzo38> So if you don't have a VT100 you can emulate it.
18:13:01 <fizzie> And that one vector thing.
18:13:52 <elliott_> quintopia: oh, hey, on that kvm page it has 3.4. Boot OS X on QEMU without KVM hardware assistance
18:14:07 <elliott_> looks like it's impractical, but at least having an AMD shouldn't be an obstacle in theory then
18:15:31 <quintopia> elliott_: the only obstacle in theory then is doing it all in windows :P
18:15:45 <elliott_> or at least start by installing a linux vm
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18:17:40 <quintopia> elliott_: oh man. vms in vms. i think i'm just gonna give up instead.
18:18:02 <elliott_> the easiest thing is to find someone willing to lend you a mac :p
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18:22:10 <fizzie> mroman_: Given these recent topics, perhaps you should add that cumulative-sum builtin. I mean, even MATLAB's got one.
18:23:53 <fizzie> I mean, it'd be 40ro??#S (where ?? is a cumulative sum) and that's it, if it worked on blocks.
18:24:10 <fizzie> I've used magic(n) a couple of times.
18:24:42 <Bicyclidine> random posix weirdness question: is there any variable in make (probably GNU) that gives you the makefile's absolute path
18:35:47 <mroman_> fizzie: I'm not sure if I release 1.7.4
18:36:10 <mroman_> with every update old solutions are mostly deprecated
18:36:20 <mroman_> because now there's a builtin that does the same thing with less chars
18:36:41 <mroman_> and it's too much effort to check all your old submissions for new shortcuts
18:36:58 <Bicyclidine> write something to fix the old ones automatically
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18:41:18 <mroman_> I'm working on something else currently anyway
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18:52:00 <fizzie> I think it's quite unfair that anagolf's Befunge(-93) "." does not put the space after the number (completely contrary to the language spec) while the Befunge-98 one does.
18:52:05 <AndoDaan> There hasn't been a ngbl reseller in my area for years.
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18:55:34 <fizzie> @tell Bicyclidine $(realpath .) in GNU Make might have been helpful.
18:55:41 <fizzie> (I completely didn't notice the question.)
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18:58:09 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: If you fund me 1 Mio. $$$ it's not a Joke
18:58:14 <mroman_> otherwise... it *might* be a joke
18:58:22 <mroman_> but you can never be sure about how serious I am about stuff
18:58:29 <mroman_> fizzie: http://codepad.org/LS9sHDGN
18:58:33 <mroman_> Does that look about right?
19:00:38 <fizzie> I don't know the language, so I couldn't possibly comment about that side, but the overall structure looked quite sane.
19:01:49 <mroman_> LDW,STW are just Load and Store Word
19:02:00 <mroman_> LDW R3 R0 loads a word at address R0 into R3
19:02:08 <mroman_> STW R1 R4 stores R4 to address R1
19:02:30 <Sgeo> Would it be at all reasonable to learn Cocoa and Cocoa Touch by looking at it through Swift instead of Objective-C?
19:02:43 <fizzie> I guessed as much, but one couldn't really tell from the sample whether the addresses are word- or sub-word-unit-based.
19:02:54 <Sgeo> I guess not http://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/ios-developers-need-to-know-objective-c/
19:03:18 <mroman_> assembly is more fun than Burlesque .
19:03:47 * Sgeo ignores the "Objective-C is easier to learn than Swift" bit
19:03:50 <mroman_> Now I only need to write a routine that converts integers to Strings
19:04:37 <mroman_> fun fact: All jumps write to return address
19:04:44 <mroman_> there's no distinction between calls and jumps
19:04:56 <mroman_> (there's no CALL instruction. CALL is essentially JMP)
19:05:08 <mroman_> extra fun fact: it's one's complement
19:05:49 <Sgeo> Um. Is $600 a lot for a computer I'm only interested in because the OS seems interesting? That seems likely
19:07:01 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/oOrGV53a <- the spec
19:07:05 <mroman_> but codepad messes up some tabs :(
19:07:57 <fizzie> Aw, the http://www.mokehehe.com/z80golf/ link at https://sites.google.com/site/codegolfingtips/Home/z80 just goes to an ad portal thing.
19:08:15 <fizzie> I guess it's too late to learn that now. :)
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19:10:49 <mroman_> I haven't a working emulator so far
19:13:43 <mroman_> Didn't Haskell have IOVector?
19:13:56 <mroman_> I need efficient arrays if I'm going to do that in Haskell
19:15:36 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector
19:15:37 <mroman_> is unboxed faster than boxed?
19:15:47 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers
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19:16:38 <elliott_> can avoid copying and mutation
19:16:44 <elliott_> vectors you have to choose between copying or mutation
19:16:55 <elliott_> sharing is more powerful than you think; going straight to vectors is inadvisable when a hashmap might work
19:18:52 <elliott_> the Data.Array interface is generally deprecated in favour of vector when possible
19:18:59 <elliott_> vector has a nicer API and it's faster.
19:19:19 <mroman_> Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable
19:19:30 <mroman_> is unboxed faster for fixed with stuff?
19:20:25 <elliott_> is there no chance I can convince you to try HashMap first?
19:21:07 <mroman_> is that fast for lots of read/write accesses?
19:21:32 <mroman_> HashMap Int Word8 is what you recommend?
19:21:34 <elliott_> it has good asymptomatics and is pretty micro-optimised too
19:21:41 <elliott_> yes, I'd try that to start with
19:22:09 <elliott_> you can also use IntMap for Int keys, but I think HashMap is faster.
19:22:10 <mroman_> and I keep that in a monad state?
19:22:19 <mroman_> or just pass as arguments to my eval function?
19:22:49 <elliott_> whichever ends up being cleanest, really; I generally dislike huge transformer stacks
19:23:12 <elliott_> if it's in your State then it'll be pretty easy to translate to a mutable vector using ST if needs be
19:26:22 <mroman_> as long as put doesn't pile up huge memory junsk
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19:27:02 <elliott_> you should use the strict State monad
19:27:29 <elliott_> which won't be entirely strict. because HashMap isn't. but that's actually what you want :)
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19:38:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40592&oldid=40533 * 204.185.95.251 * (+3) /* small s.c.r.i.p.t. */
19:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40593&oldid=40592 * 204.185.95.251 * (-6) /* small s.c.r.i.p.t. */
19:40:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40594&oldid=40593 * 204.185.95.251 * (-1) /* SMATINY */
19:40:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40595&oldid=40594 * 204.185.95.251 * (-457) /* SMITH# */
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19:45:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:45:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40596&oldid=40595 * Ehird * (+461) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/204.185.95.251|204.185.95.251]] ([[User talk:204.185.95.251|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:GermanyBoy|GermanyBoy]]
19:46:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:204.185.95.251]] with an expiry time of 2 hours (anonymous users only): too sad an attempt to block for longer
19:47:28 <elliott_> are you using Tails? seems weird for them to infoleak in the IRC username like that, but I guess it's because the unix username is "amnesia" or something
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19:48:37 <mroman_> elliott_: I guess I can abstract in a Memory-Module
19:48:39 <HackEgo> 8) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 169) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncl
19:48:45 <HackEgo> 719) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
19:48:49 <mroman_> so I can exchange it by import Foo.Memory.HashMap
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19:56:52 <zzo38> What do the common terminal emulators do with CSI 5i and CSI 4i escape codes?
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20:04:23 <zzo38> At least PuTTY seems to ignore it when printing is disabled otherwise redirects output to the printer, and finishes the print job when CSI 4i is activated.
20:04:44 <zzo38> However, one document says "Start log; all received text is echoed to a printer."
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20:06:44 <zzo38> Another document says "Auto Print" is supposed to send to both but "Print Controller" is for printer only.
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20:12:30 <zzo38> O, now I see; I need to put a question mark before the 4 or 5.
20:13:27 <zzo38> Such thing still seems to be finishing the print job when CSI ?4i is sent; I do not want it to do that, though.
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20:15:44 <zzo38> What is the correct implementation?
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21:32:15 <FireFly> THe question mark-prefixed control sequences are typically nonstandard extensions, I think
21:36:11 <FireFly> According to ECMA-48, "CSI 5 i" is "start relay to a primary auxiliary device" and "CSI 4 i" is defined similarly for stopping, so it's not limited to printing it seems
21:37:04 <zzo38> FireFly: I know that the question mark means that, but I am unsure, if CSI 5 i is supposed to cause the output on both devices?
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21:40:45 <zzo38> And either way, is it supposed to finish a print job in such a case?
21:45:46 <shachaf> Taneb: are you taking a linear algebra module
21:46:17 <Taneb> I have linear algebra next term, but I have a vision and graphics module that had affine transformations
21:48:17 <shachaf> Taneb: do you know about affine and linear functions that are just : R -> R
21:48:59 <Taneb> (Only been shown R^2 -> R^2 and R^3 -> R^3)
21:49:19 <Taneb> (R -> R is not particularly relevant for computer vision or graphics, I guess)
21:49:46 <shachaf> Well, a linear function : R -> R is always of the form (\x -> k * x)
21:50:13 <shachaf> And an affine function : R -> R is always of the form (\x -> k * x + j) for some k and j
21:50:23 <Taneb> Isn't it \x -> k*x + c?
21:50:25 <shachaf> (I'm not sure why I'm using those letters.)
21:52:52 <fizzie> Insert affine-fine joke here.
21:52:54 <shachaf> Compare to lenses, where Lens' s a means (s ~~ (k,a)), and AffineTraversal' s a means (s ~~ (k,a) + c)
21:54:47 <shachaf> And of course a traversal means (s ~~ z + (y,a) + (x,a^2) + (w,a^3) + ...)
21:55:35 <shachaf> And a relevant traversal means (s ~~ (y,a) + (x,a^2) + (w,a^3) + ...)
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22:11:14 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> also that problem would be more enjoyable if the server tolerated trailing spaces <-- i see what you mean, i thought i had beaten you easily right until i actually tried submitting it...
22:11:51 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Asteriks+and+Obeliks+FIXED
22:12:19 <shachaf> that website loads so quickly
22:12:38 <oerjan> i wouldn't know, i had the tab open already
22:12:39 <shachaf> it's just a little bit of html. it doesn't even load google analytics or fancy images
22:12:52 <oerjan> oh you weren't being sarcastic
22:13:12 <shachaf> are you confusing me with elliott
22:13:28 <oerjan> no, with humanity of this age
22:13:31 <shachaf> I probably shouldn't have said that. :-(
22:13:38 <zzo38> It is good, I don't like it to have Google analytics and a lot of fancy images and fancy CSS
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23:01:32 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ <mroman_> http://mroman.ch/ngbl/ <-- It's -> Its hth
23:02:54 <Taneb> oerjan is now a Yorkshireman
23:03:51 <oerjan> now its note spelt inn thus weigh
23:05:12 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't think you quite know what Yorkshirefolk sound like
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23:35:12 <FireFly> I see how the first and third samples of that anarchy golf task fit together, but not the second one..
23:45:21 <oerjan> FireFly: i also thought that for a while...
23:46:17 <oerjan> because except for the last column of that second example, all the "columns" are in a straight line
23:46:58 <oerjan> (i guess those are supposed to be the obelisks alluded to)
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23:55:25 <oerjan> > (3,1,2) & partsOf each %~ sort
00:08:51 <oerjan> > ((1,4,3),(2,9,5),(8,6,7)) & partsOf (each.each) %~ sort
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00:20:46 <FireFly> Stupid trailing whitespace
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03:01:43 <Jafet> Hmm, the pdf of Knuth that someone linked earlier, is a scan with "Simon Plouffe 1985" scrawled on the half-title. Autographed warez.
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03:34:08 <zzo38> What is the best way to generatea random number in a not too much slow, but still of pretty good quality, way?
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03:42:11 <elliott_> xorshift, depending on what you consider good quality?
03:44:45 <Sgeo_> So, apparently, in Objective-C, nil responds to all messages with nil. Are most messages in Cocoa arranged such that blindly acting on having gotten a nil will usually behave sensibly, ala the the example in a blog post: if ([name isEqualToString:@"Steve"]) { ... } ?
03:45:03 <Sgeo_> Where name can be nil and it will still act properly?
03:45:10 <Sgeo_> http://nshipster.com/nil/
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04:08:30 <Sgeo_> Is Objective-J/Cappuchino any good?
04:13:24 <Sgeo_> Oh, Objective-C's normal libraries does that annoying thing of sending messages to objects that the objects really shouldn't have deep control over
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05:11:01 <shachaf> whoa, nooodl hasn't been around in a while
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05:19:37 <Sgeo_> Is GNUstep going anywhere?
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07:35:13 <mroman_> Perl is dying. I like that.
07:35:50 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8h 34m 17s ago: <mroman_> http://mroman.ch/ngbl/ <-- It's -> Its hth
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07:38:24 <mroman_> "like a dying duck in a thunderstorm"
07:39:53 <mroman_> (http://news.dice.com/2014/10/09/5-programming-languages-marked-for-death/)
07:45:15 <int-e> So they're saying that perl based CGI scripts are dying. Fine, fine...
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09:03:48 <int-e> haha, this comment seems inconsistent: "Please crawl back under your stone and get in touch with reality"
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09:11:32 <int-e> mroman_: a comment by "tux" on that languages-the-author-wishes-to-die link.
09:12:36 <mroman_> where the author obviously is a VB6 programmer
09:12:54 <int-e> Some perl lover, "Perl6 indeed took a long journey to get into the “I could use it” phase. Maybe too long, but it is getting in shape to make a whole lot of young programmers very happy. It addresses all the dislikes people find in other – now popular – languages."
09:13:52 <int-e> I have to ask: Does it address any of the things that people dislike about Perl?
09:14:39 <mroman_> "You may discard my opinion, but your article sucks."
09:14:56 <int-e> [dynamic types, useless $ signs, scalar vs. list contexts, implicit $_ variable (a blessing and a curse)...)
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09:14:57 <mroman_> is "your article sucks" also a discardable opinion?
09:15:49 <int-e> criticism should be justified, and ideally be constructive, though that's not always possible.
09:16:27 <int-e> [disclaimer: I only know a very small fragment of Perl]
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09:20:22 <mroman_> Delphi XE7 isn't free though
09:21:58 <int-e> The Borland^WInprise^WBorland Object Pascal seems to me to be the most likely candidate to actually die, in the "no new projects will be using it" sense.
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09:25:55 <mroman_> Although I don't really know much about Pascal Delphi
09:26:01 <mroman_> there are so many variants of things
09:26:02 <int-e> And judging by other comments even that is unlikely.
09:26:06 <mroman_> Object Pascal, FreePascal, Delphi
09:26:10 <mroman_> probably Objective Delphi?
09:26:35 <mroman_> (I think those are Pascal-ish but not really Pascal?)
09:26:46 <int-e> I've never used Delphi, I did use Borland's "Pascal with Objects" in the mid-90s, when the keyword for those was still "object" rather than "class".
09:28:13 <int-e> Modula adds a module system to Pascal, hence the name. [Borland's pascal also had modules, called "units"] I've never looked at Oberon, does it have OO?
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09:29:20 <b_jonas> yeah, I know, programming sucked back then, nothing was standardized, and we had to program in nine inch snow uphill both ways
09:29:50 <b_jonas> objects with virtual methods didn't yet store the vtbl pointer inside them, but instead every pointer to them had the vtbl pointer in it
09:29:51 <int-e> b_jonas: nah, programming was much simpler back then.
09:30:09 <b_jonas> and we had to do all that on bad quality crt monitors
09:30:38 <mroman_> never used Oberon myself though
09:30:46 <mroman_> but it has type bound methods or something like that
09:31:01 <int-e> Oh yes, Monitors were indeed awful. I don't miss those one bit.
09:31:14 <b_jonas> keyboards were good though
09:31:24 <mroman_> Type-bound procedures serve to implement abstract data types with dynamically bound operations. An abstract data type is a user-defined type which encapsulates private data together with a set of operations that can be used to manipulate this data. In Modula-2 or in Oberon an abstract data type is implemented as a record type and a set of procedures.
09:32:10 <b_jonas> I miss the time back when PC motherboards worked fine with AT keyboards plugged in with an AT-PS2 converter.
09:32:16 <mroman_> int-e: at least Smalltalk isn't dying.
09:32:20 <mroman_> would be a shame if it did.
09:32:26 <mroman_> It's so productive and widely used.
09:32:41 <int-e> good keyboards still exist, but they are hard to find among all those cheap crappy lightweight plastic things, and the we-fit-200-extra-useless-buttons "gaming" and "multimedia" keyboards.
09:33:03 <mroman_> .oO (Does int-e have a steal keyboard)
09:33:36 <int-e> mroman_: no, just a Cherry G80. It's sturdy enough.
09:34:33 <int-e> (even those are getting worse, and they didn't bother to change the model number)
09:34:48 <b_jonas> what? they don't chagne the model number?
09:35:04 <int-e> Not the marketable part of it.
09:35:15 <b_jonas> I should buy a better keyboard
09:35:29 <J_Arcane> I just need something that's easier on my wrists and hands. I'm starting to get serious pain issues with my right arm.
09:35:29 <int-e> G80-3000LQCEU-0 <-- I can't remember all of this.
09:35:56 <b_jonas> int-e: is some of that telling the layout and the labels on the keycaps?
09:36:12 <J_Arcane> I seriously considered getting a Model M, but I've heard good things about that new MS ergo keyboard.
09:36:32 <int-e> b_jonas: right, and some of it encodes the key characteristics (click, curve of force while pressing the key)
09:36:47 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: quite possible, because at least some of the MS mice are quite good
09:37:12 <J_Arcane> The original MS ergo was quite lovely once you got used to it.
09:38:01 <J_Arcane> A new pointing device wouldn't go amiss either; if it weren't for gaming I'd probably use a trackball.
09:38:36 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: you could buy both if you do gaming and other sort of work
09:39:05 <mroman_> "programming languages are tools to solve a problem but one tool may not solve every problem. a hammer or saw or drill cannot do everything."
09:39:12 <mroman_> ^- this guy is clearly not creative enough.
09:39:44 <b_jonas> he's bought the wrong drill
09:40:08 <J_Arcane> Indeed. :D Should've bought a dremel. ;)
09:40:09 <mroman_> also this comparison doesn't make sense with programming languages
09:40:10 <int-e> nah, he needs a bigger hammer.
09:40:18 <mroman_> Assembly can do everything
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09:41:06 <mroman_> then every other tool like the saw would be implemented using hammers.
09:41:27 <int-e> If I had to write any big program in assembly language I'd write a compiler :/
09:41:31 <mroman_> I'd like to see you build a pump only with hammers.
09:42:05 <int-e> It's just too tedious to always take care of all the small details (like which value is currently in which register) oneself.
09:42:25 <mroman_> Right. But you'd have to write the compiler in assembly first
09:42:39 <int-e> It'll pay dividends quickly.;
09:43:11 <J_Arcane> Yeah; personally, I've never been great at that kind of low-level thinking. I just can't get my head around it. I understand the very basics, but making my brain go to the place where shuffling numbers does things is trickier. :P
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10:21:43 <fizzie> I wrote my first z80 golf entry the other day. (It's not especially golfed, I suppose, but still.)
10:23:01 <J_Arcane> The most complicated bit of asm code I have ever written was the self-modifying "Hello, World" I wrote for the MicroMini examples.
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10:25:15 <b_jonas> in anagolf, where it lists the submitted valid solutions, what do question marks in the statistics columns mean? I have them next to my entries
10:25:36 <oerjan> it means you didn't check the statistics button when submitting
10:25:46 <oerjan> so the actual numbers are hidden
10:25:49 <b_jonas> oh, I hvae to check that? ah
10:25:58 <oerjan> yes, it's a bit annoying
10:39:07 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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10:42:47 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
10:44:04 <int-e> Monoids are semigroups with an identity element. Semigroups are magmas whose operation is associative. Magmas are sets equipped with a binary operation.
10:47:49 <mroman_> Stats should be on by default
10:50:40 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
10:50:48 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
10:50:55 <HackEgo> isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
10:52:19 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
10:52:33 <Taneb> `learn groups are just loops with the property of associativity
10:53:29 <Taneb> `run echo "loop: see loop" > wisdom/loop
10:53:58 <HackEgo> categorical product? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:54:06 <HackEgo> direct product? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:54:18 <mroman_> `learn hipchat is a chat where you can communicate solely by using meme-emoticons but shouldn't.
10:54:22 <boily> Tanelle. long time no see.
10:54:37 <Taneb> I haven't been speaking in channel much lately
10:54:38 <b_jonas> what does it call categorical product?
10:54:52 <Taneb> I suddenly found myself to have a social life
10:55:01 <boily> a categorical product is when you're very sure of the end result.
10:55:17 <boily> Taneb: how's the social life going on?
10:55:35 <Taneb> A lot of tabletop games
10:56:31 <Taneb> Tonight I've got a board games night
10:57:32 <boily> ah, another one who succumbed into the ranks of the Boardgaming Sect :D
10:57:37 <boily> which ones are you gonna play?
10:57:50 <Taneb> Whatever people bring
10:57:58 <Taneb> We play Mansions of Madness quite a lot
10:59:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: we don't want product wisdoms to start multiplying hth
11:00:01 <boily> Taneb: never tried, but from the pictures on BGG it looks quite interesting.
11:02:19 <b_jonas> `define categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
11:02:20 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%63%61%74%65%67%6f%72%69%63%61%6c%20%70%72%6f%64%75%63%74%20%69%73%
11:02:57 <b_jonas> `learn categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
11:04:30 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%72%6f%61%64' \ Alert!: Unable to access document. \ \ lynx: Can't
11:08:32 <boily> oh fungot. another wisdom entry with mathematicalities...
11:08:53 <HackEgo> categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
11:09:16 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/categorical{, product}
11:09:16 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `wisdom/categorical{,': No such file or directory
11:09:22 <boily> time to cleanse myself with softly parfumed soap, and void my memories of CT.
11:09:31 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/categorical{," product"}
11:09:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ALTOID CHICKEN).
11:09:40 <oerjan> `? categorical product
11:09:40 <HackEgo> categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
11:10:23 <oerjan> i wish HackEgo supported knowing who submitted a command so i could have `learn censor people who obviously don't know how to use it.
11:11:56 <oerjan> also, that entry is far too accurate for wisdom/, i think.
11:12:26 <oerjan> actually, i think there is an obvious solution.
11:12:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn
11:15:18 <Taneb> boily, Mansions of Madness is great fun :)
11:15:19 <oerjan> `run sed -i '6cecho "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': $stuff"' bin/learn
11:16:07 <Taneb> First exercise sheet of the academic year, on Group Theory
11:16:08 <oerjan> `run echo sed -i '6cecho "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': $stuff"' bin/learn
11:16:08 <HackEgo> sed -i 6cecho "Learned '$topic': $stuff" bin/learn
11:16:38 <oerjan> `run sed '6cecho "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': $stuff"' bin/learn
11:16:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:17:34 <oerjan> `run sed '6cecho "Learned *$topic*: $stuff"' bin/learn
11:17:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:17:57 <oerjan> `run sed '6cecho Argh' bin/learn
11:17:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:18:50 <oerjan> `run sed '6c\echo "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': $stuff"' bin/learn
11:18:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:20:17 <oerjan> `run sed '6c \boo' bin/learn
11:20:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:20:35 <oerjan> `run sed "6c \\\nboo" bin/learn
11:20:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:20:55 <oerjan> `run sed '6s/.*/Boo!' bin/learn
11:20:56 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 10: unterminated `s' command
11:21:02 <oerjan> `run sed '6s/.*/Boo!/' bin/learn
11:21:03 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
11:21:16 <oerjan> ok something is ridiculously wrong
11:21:26 <oerjan> `run sed '1,5d' bin/learn
11:21:29 <int-e> Hmm, how about: A product is the limit of a discrete diagram.
11:23:34 <J_Arcane> I'm beginning to wonder if the way I learn programming languages is anything like the way most books seem to want to teach programming languages, or even if I should bother with books at all ...
11:23:52 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, feel free to fix that entry
11:25:46 <oerjan> what happened was that when i pasted the result from `url into the address bar, it noticed that it was a prefix of bin/learn_append which i'd already visited, so it auto-completed it :(
11:26:50 <oerjan> so i've been trying to sed based on the wrong file contents all this time
11:26:50 <b_jonas> I'm not sure that's the correct definition anyway, but it's something close.
11:28:41 <oerjan> `run sed '4c\echo "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': $1"' bin/learn
11:28:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
11:28:50 <oerjan> `run sed -i '4c\echo "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': $1"' bin/learn
11:30:45 <oerjan> once again, a `revert doesn't show up in the repository
11:31:11 <oerjan> seems to happen whenever the `revert deletes a file
11:32:01 <oerjan> @tell Gregor it seems to me that the HackEgo repository doesn't pick up any edits that consist solely of file deletions
11:34:11 <Taneb> ...it says I need to do 1 part x
11:34:16 <Taneb> Question one goes up ti ix
11:37:25 <oerjan> `sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': ;cat "wisdom/$topic"
11:37:26 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
11:37:40 <oerjan> `sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': ;cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:37:41 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
11:38:11 <oerjan> `sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': ";cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:38:12 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
11:39:00 <oerjan> `echo sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': ";cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:39:01 <HackEgo> sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': ";cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:39:47 <oerjan> `run sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': "\'"\n"'cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:42:10 <oerjan> `echo sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': "\'"\n"'cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:42:11 <HackEgo> sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': "\'"\n"'cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:43:49 <oerjan> `run sed -i '6cecho -n "Learned '"'"'$topic'"'"': *cat "wisdom/$topic"' bin/learn_append
11:44:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i '6s/[*]/"\n/' bin/learn_append
11:44:55 <oerjan> `learn_append hi shmere
11:44:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'hi': hi there shmere
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12:00:20 <mroman_> what's the haskell analogue for factories?
12:00:47 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/sM6qv7TJ <- is obviously bullshit
12:01:26 <mroman_> (mainly because you can't create a Storage m a)
12:02:21 -!- password2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:02:23 * oerjan doesn't really know what factories are, anyway
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12:02:42 <mroman_> The idea is that you can choose at runtime whether to use InMemStorage or FileStorage
12:02:47 <mroman_> which you can't using this approach
12:03:47 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/hgsHD9ov <- you can't implement chooseStorage
12:04:52 <oerjan> you need some type quantification.
12:05:05 <oerjan> by which time you can just as well drop the classes.
12:06:59 <mroman_> I tried forall s. s => Storage IO s -> String -> Storage IO s
12:08:56 <oerjan> mroman_: http://codepad.org/eO6Utx42
12:09:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:10:18 <mroman_> except that it doesn't compile
12:10:53 <oerjan> fixed typo http://codepad.org/lUBrpKfU
12:12:07 <mroman_> Couldn't match type ‘IORef String’ with ‘IO (IORef a1)’
12:15:08 <oerjan> fixed http://codepad.org/DQEngwnh
12:15:26 <oerjan> btw MVars, unlike IORefs, can be empty fwiw
12:19:05 <oerjan> anyway the main lesson here is that classes are often overkill in haskell, and can actually make it _harder_ to make things dynamic.
12:19:49 <oerjan> while a data type with functions in it can work better
12:25:23 <mroman_> I didn't know that. But this looks pretty powerful.
12:26:03 <mroman_> I intend to use that for my emulator
12:26:13 <mroman_> so I can switch easily between different implementations for memory
12:31:57 <mroman_> such data types are actually classes :D
12:32:39 <oerjan> they're dictionaries. and ghc's internal representation of classes uses them.
12:33:13 <oerjan> sometimes you need a bit of type quantification in addition.
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13:03:14 <int-e> > [1..]>>=($"123").replicateM
13:03:15 <lambdabot> ["1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","113",...
13:03:56 <oerjan> > [1..]>>=(`replicateM`"123")
13:03:57 <lambdabot> ["1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","113",...
13:04:14 <oerjan> hm i guess it's the same length
13:04:45 <int-e> yes. but "import Control.Monad" is too long anyway. :)
13:06:53 -!- Froox has joined.
13:08:31 <oerjan> > [1..]>>=($"123").mapM id.replicate
13:08:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘a0 -> [a0]’ with ‘[[GHC.Types.Char] -> b]’
13:08:32 <lambdabot> Expected type: GHC.Types.Int -> [[GHC.Types.Char] -> b]
13:08:32 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Types.Int -> a0 -> [a0]
13:09:01 <lambdabot> replicateM n x = sequence (replicate n x)
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13:10:41 <oerjan> > [1..]>>= \n->mapM id$[1..n]>>"123"
13:10:43 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[b]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Char’
13:11:14 <oerjan> > [1..]>>= \n->mapM id$[1..n]>>["123"]
13:11:15 <lambdabot> ["1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","113",...
13:14:18 <int-e> > [1..]>>= \n->mapM(\_->"123")[1..n] -- also same length
13:14:19 <lambdabot> ["1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","113",...
13:16:00 <quintopia> what is all this nonsense going on
13:17:40 <oerjan> > [1..]>>= \n->mapM(>>["123"])[1..n]
13:17:41 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [a0])
13:17:41 <lambdabot> arising from the arithmetic sequence ‘1 .. ’No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [...
13:17:43 <quintopia> a program that lists all sequences of 1,2, and 3?
13:17:53 <int-e> I was comparing to [1..]>>= \n->mapM id$[1..n]>>"123"
13:18:17 <int-e> > do n<-[1..];mapM id$[1..n]>>"123"
13:18:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[b]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Char’
13:18:32 <quintopia> i guess you could call that "counting in quaternary"
13:19:08 <quintopia> "counting in ternary with the wrong digits"
13:19:17 <int-e> > do n<-[1..];mapM(\_->"123")[1..n]
13:19:18 <lambdabot> ["1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","113",...
13:19:44 <int-e> yes, hello hello world still annoys me.
13:20:53 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world
13:21:38 <oerjan> > mapM id`map`iterate("123":)[]
13:21:40 <lambdabot> [[""],["1","2","3"],["11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33"],["111","1...
13:21:54 <oerjan> > mapM id=<<iterate("123":)[]
13:21:55 <lambdabot> ["","1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","11...
13:22:13 <int-e> > iterate("123":)[]>>=sequence -- right. mapM id == sequence
13:22:14 <lambdabot> ["","1","2","3","11","12","13","21","22","23","31","32","33","111","112","11...
13:22:31 <oerjan> mapM id is slightly shorter
13:22:55 <int-e> So it is. I can't count.
13:25:31 <oerjan> incidentally this is _still_ counting the wrong way for the problem.
13:27:24 <blsqbot> {"1" "2" "10" "11" "12" "20" "21" "22" "100" "101" "102" "110" "111" "112" "120"
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13:28:43 <blsqbot> {"1" "2" "3" "11" "12" "13" "21" "22" "23" "31" "32" "33" "111" "112" "113" "121
13:30:40 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah looks like the output is standard ternary counting order yeah?
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13:31:50 <quintopia> i'm surprised the shortest answer is 48
13:32:23 <quintopia> oerjan: we're talking hello hello world right
13:32:41 <int-e> quintopia: oerjan and I are competing on the Haskell one
13:33:06 <int-e> hence all the (irrelevant, but topically related) Haskell snippets above
13:33:15 <int-e> (they're actually more relevant to the latest problem)
13:34:17 <fizzie> quintopia: It's very possibly not the shortest, just not many people have given it a go.
13:34:18 <oerjan> still working on the obeliks
13:36:21 <oerjan> when considering trailing whitespace, int-e starts looking hard to beat.
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13:39:31 <fizzie> I still don't even know what the logic of obeliks was.
13:40:27 <oerjan> it's actually really simple
13:41:35 <oerjan> but the fact that all except one of the columns in the example skew into a straight line might deceive you.
13:42:08 <b_jonas> there's just three test-cases you have to hard-code
13:42:13 <b_jonas> why would there have to be logic?
13:42:27 <b_jonas> sure there is, but it's not important
13:43:37 <oerjan> oh well, maybe hard-coding would be shorter.
13:43:45 <oerjan> surely for _some_ languages.
13:47:16 <int-e> oerjan: I'm a bit annoyed that the easy problems run for 14 days and the harder "count the overlap" one only for a week
13:48:12 <fizzie> mroman_: Burlesque for hello hello world.
13:49:30 <blsqbot> {{0} {1} {2} {0 0} {0 1} {0 2} {1 0} {1 1} {1 2} {2 0} {2 1} {2 2} {0 0 0} {0 0
13:49:45 <mroman_> !blsq {0 1 2}3cb{"world hello world!"wdjsi}m[
13:49:45 <blsqbot> {{"world"} {"hello"} {"world!"} {"world" "world"} {"world" "hello"} {"world" "wo
13:50:15 <mroman_> !blsq {0 1 2}3cb{"world hello !"wdjsi}m[
13:50:16 <blsqbot> {{"world"} {"hello"} {"!"} {"world" "world"} {"world" "hello"} {"world" "!"} {"h
13:51:00 <fizzie> It would be 0 1 2 10 11 12 20 21 22 100 101 ..., i.e. just ternary count with no trailing zeros except for 0 itself.
13:51:43 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (cb) Invalid arguments!
13:51:47 <blsqbot> {"1" "2" "10" "11" "12" "20" "21" "22" "100" "101" "102" "110" "111" "112" "120"
13:51:55 <blsqbot> {"0" "1" "2" "10" "11" "12" "20" "21" "22" "100" "101" "102" "110" "111" "112" "
13:52:22 <mroman_> !blsq 15{3B!riXX}GZ{"world hello world!"wdjsi}m[
13:52:22 <blsqbot> {{"world"} {"hello"} {"world!"} {"hello" "world"} {"hello" "hello"} {"hello" "wo
13:55:04 <int-e> fizzie: I think you mean leading zeros, hth
13:56:11 <int-e> fizzie: you might enjoy http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?print+numbers+reversed though *ducks*
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13:59:32 <fizzie> mroman_: I didn't even know you can XX an integer, my 48B one was kind of a 3B!XX plus [-ri ... j!! kinda thing on each individual digit.
14:00:45 <mroman_> then you might get <41B by using XX on an integer?
14:01:00 <fizzie> Probably not, that's already 7 characters shorter.
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14:02:21 <fizzie> It did make for an obvious 48->46, though.
14:02:49 <mroman_> I don't think you can compress "world hello world!"
14:03:46 <int-e> In my Haskell snippets, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't...
14:03:47 <fizzie> I tried, but couldn't.
14:04:15 <mroman_> let's wait for teebee to make his move
14:05:43 <mroman_> btw {f}GZ{g}m[ is the same as {fg}GZ
14:05:59 <mroman_> (map f . map g == map (f . g))
14:11:06 <ion> !bf_textgen hello
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14:14:47 <mroman_> it would be soo much shorter
14:17:45 <fizzie> I noticed that too. In fact, my initial attempts built on 3dg and trying to handle the 0 separately, but they were all longer.
14:18:11 <HackEgo> 51 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++. [161]
14:20:05 <mroman_> but handling the 0 is really tedious
14:24:29 <mroman_> it requires a "world"Q at the end of my program
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14:25:17 <mroman_> either that or some crazy Pp pP shit
14:31:11 <mroman_> Even my crappiest solution so far is 49B
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14:33:49 <mroman_> it can be made less crappy to 48B though
14:33:58 <b_jonas> no way, I've written crappier I think
14:34:34 <b_jonas> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world says I wrote 583 bytes
14:34:50 <b_jonas> ok, that's bad, let me replace it with a real solution
14:34:52 <mroman_> I can't say anything about Perl
14:35:12 <b_jonas> a few minutes, let me write one
14:35:25 <b_jonas> I think that one basically encoded the whole output or something
14:36:31 <mroman_> So I'm not gonna start golfing in it.
14:37:01 <b_jonas> I might not make it the golfiest, but 583 is riddiculously long
14:37:05 <b_jonas> I'll write something more decent
14:37:17 <int-e> mroman_: I suppose you *can* say anything about Perl.
14:38:59 <mroman_> but I treat it as a reliable source for my own convenience since I hate perl
14:40:07 <mroman_> It doesn't even have arguments
14:41:31 <mroman_> it has this ugly @_ thingy
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14:43:29 <b_jonas> now let me see if I can cut a few bytes
14:44:55 <b_jonas> ais is leading with 72 bytes
14:45:51 <b_jonas> ok, now the difficult part, how can I cut it more
14:47:32 <b_jonas> it doesn't accept extra spaces in the lines
14:53:03 <b_jonas> also, I could compress world world!
14:53:21 <b_jonas> I had to write world only once in the source
14:54:10 <J_Arcane> I think I wanna do a golfLisp at some point, with 1 character keywords a la Pilot and Mouse.
14:55:00 <Bike> you could just define some macros in lisp-of-your-choice.
14:55:12 <mroman_> being the author of burlesque I can say to you: There's no point doing that
14:55:17 <mroman_> sure the programs will be shorter
14:55:26 <Bike> but what about the soul
14:55:38 <mroman_> i.e. if you map lisp commands to 1bytes
14:55:47 <mroman_> it's shorter.. but it's still LISP
14:55:51 <mroman_> so might as well just golf in LISP
14:56:14 <mroman_> i.e. it doesn't provide additional fun
14:56:28 <J_Arcane> Bike: This is true. But I've a couple books in my queue on writing Lisps, so it might be doable to kill two birds with one stone. ;)
14:57:08 <mroman_> and as for "as short as possible"
14:57:11 <J_Arcane> though, it's true as well that as a Scheme/Racket fan I actually kinda like the verbosity of that flavor.
14:57:13 <mroman_> gs2 is pretty damn good at that
14:57:47 <mroman_> better than golfscript, flogscript and burlesque
14:57:54 <b_jonas> it seems that compressing world world! saved 3 bytes
14:57:59 <Bike> in old editions of chaitin's Algorithmic Information Theory he used a lisp that used the apl character set
14:58:50 <Bike> and implicit parens. it's horrifying
15:00:18 <Bike> it's also compiled to diophantine equations
15:00:20 <Bike> sounds like a joke
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15:19:51 <mroman_> I guess this does not have some search heuristics?
15:20:28 <mroman_> `unicode THAT WEIRD SYMBOL USED IN MAIL ADDRESSES USUALLY IN THE MIDDLE
15:26:01 <Sgeo_> "Hijack do-notation for Applicative "
15:26:03 <Taneb> mroman_, it is the name of the character I think
15:26:07 <Sgeo_> Why is that an evil Haskell tip?
15:26:44 <Taneb> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER SIDEWAYS TURNED M
15:27:22 <Taneb> `unicode ROMAN NUMERAL NINE
15:27:53 <HackEgo> U+019C LATIN CAPITAL LETTER TURNED M \ UTF-8: c6 9c UTF-16BE: 019c Decimal: Ɯ \ Ɯ (ɯ) \ Lowercase: U+026F \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+026F LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M \ UTF-8: c9 af UTF-16BE: 026f Decimal: ɯ \ ɯ (Ɯ) \ Uppercase: U+019C \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Ri
15:28:02 <HackEgo> U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R \ UTF-8: 52 UTF-16BE: 0052 Decimal: R \ R (r) \ Lowercase: U+0072 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R \ UTF-8: 72 UTF-16BE: 0072 Decimal: r \ r (R) \ Uppercase: U+0052 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0154 LATIN CA
15:28:46 <mroman_> `unicode ROMAN NUMERAL FIFTY
15:28:52 <mroman_> `unicode ROMAN NUMERAL THOUSAND
15:28:58 <Taneb> `unicode MATHEMATICAL BOLD FRAKTUR CAPITAL R
15:28:59 <HackEgo> U+2160 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE \ UTF-8: e2 85 a0 UTF-16BE: 2160 Decimal: Ⅰ \ Ⅰ (ⅰ) \ Lowercase: U+2170 \ Category: Nl (Number, Letter) \ Numeric value: 1 \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0049 \ \ U+2161 ROMAN NUMERAL TWO \ UTF-8: e2 85 a1 UTF-16BE: 2161 Decimal: Ⅱ \ Ⅱ (ⅱ) \ Lowercase: U+2171 \ Category: Nl (Num
15:29:28 <Taneb> `unicode SCRIPT CAPITAL R
15:30:00 <Taneb> `unicode DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R
15:31:16 <b_jonas> I wonder if I could cut one more character with some trick
15:31:42 <Taneb> b_jonas, from what?
15:35:26 <b_jonas> hmm, I could actually use the pid trick here
15:35:29 <b_jonas> that could save three chars
15:35:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world
15:39:23 <b_jonas> hmm, I don't see how to save one character this way, unless I use the pid trick to safe three characters right
15:39:48 <b_jonas> there must be some other ways to save
15:42:02 <b_jonas> there, I used the pid trick. now I'm evil
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16:47:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polyglot]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40597&oldid=39879 * 91.127.56.175 * (+302) /* Minimal languages for polyglot quine */ new section
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16:54:52 <mroman_> also why doesn't windows have Dvorak International
16:56:31 <mroman_> also where the hell can I change it on Windows 8.1
16:57:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: change stuff in windows 8.1? isn't that like unconfigurable because they know better what you want than you do?
16:57:38 <mroman_> no it's just hidden everywhere
16:57:45 <mroman_> some things you can change through the metro thingy
16:57:55 <mroman_> others through the regular control pannel
16:58:05 <elliott_> windows is pretty configurable...
16:58:16 <mroman_> and some stuff looks metro but is actually just a fullscreen window in the normal desktop environment
16:58:42 <mroman_> it's confusing if it pops up
16:58:49 <elliott_> hm? I don't think there is such a distinction
16:58:52 <mroman_> and you think it's metro so you press the windows key to switch back to the desktop
16:59:15 <mroman_> but since it's still on the desktop pressing the windows key will switch to the metro homepage thingy
16:59:52 <mroman_> elliott_: you can open metro applications while being on the desktop
17:00:00 <mroman_> and they are displayed fullscreen
17:00:08 <mroman_> but it's not considered to be in "metro" mode
17:00:23 <mroman_> (i.e. like I said pressing the windows key won't get you the desktop back)
17:00:30 <mroman_> you have to close the fullscreen window
17:00:36 <mroman_> before you can see your desktop again
17:01:31 <mroman_> Do anti-virus manufacturers still distinguish between spyware and other stuff?
17:01:43 <mroman_> Why would I need spyware protection if I have malware protection?
17:01:56 <mroman_> does malware protection not protect against malware spying on me?
17:02:10 <mroman_> or is this just to lure innocent people into paying for something they don't need
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17:24:46 <zzo38> I think ALT+F4 and ALT+TAB and stuff are still the same for Metro and non-Metro though.
17:27:26 <zzo38> And did you see if WIN+D still works to bring back the desktop screen?
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18:27:51 <j-bot> b_jonas: hihI HiHI
18:27:56 <j-bot> b_jonas: hi hI Hi HI
18:29:31 <j-bot> b_jonas: hi hI Hi HI
18:30:15 <fizzie> !blsq "hi"XX{JZZ_+}MPcpwD "there's probably a better way to do that so that it doesn't include repeating"vv
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19:09:25 <mroman_> somebody set me up then saying you speak it
19:10:59 <mroman_> maybe I thingie swedish with finnish
19:11:36 <Vorpal> mroman_, fizzie, Deewiant and oklopol speak Finnish though at least
19:11:45 <mroman_> damnit my english skills are worsening.
19:11:49 <Vorpal> Probably forgot someone
19:13:21 <mroman_> deteriorating, diminishing
19:14:31 <fizzie> The Finn-listing in the logs was quite complete and correct (you did forget a couple).
19:14:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? Where in the logs?
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19:17:49 <fizzie> When mroman_ asked around about this last.
19:20:11 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v.
19:20:27 <fizzie> It's a bit mixed up in there with other discussion, though.
19:20:40 <fizzie> I don't want to nickping people so I'll omit it anyway.
19:21:22 <fizzie> Or maybe I could mangle the names.
19:21:51 <J_Arcane> The fruits of my evening: (define (s f l) (match l ['() '()] [(cons h t) (append (s f (filter (curry (negate f) h) t)) `(,h) (s f (filter (curry f h) t)))]))
19:21:54 <fizzie> But the problem is, there's no complete list.
19:22:11 <mroman_> so. fizzie, Deewiant, oklopol and nortti
19:22:25 <fizzie> Also ate_hwa, inei_ros.
19:22:35 <fizzie> (I don't want to remember how to type a zero-width space.)
19:22:58 <fizzie> And J__Arcane (see what I did there) lives here but is not native, I think that was well-established.
19:23:14 <fizzie> Oh, and i_on is one too, I believe.
19:23:41 <fizzie> Or maybe they are Swedish with just a very Finnish-y name.
19:23:59 <fizzie> And we all know that sha_chaf is nominally Finnish.
19:24:31 <fizzie> I put an underscore in your name you're not supposed to notice.
19:24:32 <shachaf> do we all know that sha_chaf has /hilight on chaf\b
19:24:39 <fizzie> We don't all know that.
19:24:59 <shachaf> I looked in /usr/share/dict/words and everything!
19:25:02 <int-e> why would shac_haf do that?
19:25:13 <fizzie> Oh, right, there was that power outage.
19:25:44 <Vorpal> There are no words in /usr/share/dict/words that ends in chaf. All the entries matching "chaf" in fact starts with it
19:26:26 <shachaf> The main reason is that people keep misspelling the beginning of my name.
19:26:33 <int-e> I guess "sachaf" happens often enough
19:26:42 <Vorpal> shachaf, why? wouldn't they tab complete it?
19:26:43 <int-e> what about sahchaf?
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19:27:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:27:08 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should set your IRC client to tab-complete with : rather than ,.
19:27:10 <fungot> mroman_: ( sum-ec ( :list x l)) nl)) is equivalent to set! a ( cond ( f 1)
19:27:22 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
19:27:28 <fizzie> fungot: Are you quite sure about that? They don't look similar at all!
19:27:28 <fungot> fizzie: " what a deal of teaching oo wants! she washes it little by fnord she begins at the other side. " did they box his ears for nothing? a precious pet!"
19:27:34 <shachaf> It looks like part of a sentence rather than part of a protocol this way.
19:27:37 <int-e> fungot, does that include bruno and sylvie?
19:27:37 <fungot> int-e: ' oh, ever so much more than that!' cried the poor queen groaned out: ' the man, oo know. if oo walked at it, oo'd go right froo!"
19:27:43 <Vorpal> shachaf! I don't see a reason to do so
19:28:00 <int-e> fungot: tell us about bread
19:28:00 <fungot> int-e: ' a little fnord we go and meet him and then we sing this song for your fnord!" thundered the vice-warden. " why, i thought, " in real life, is to deduce conclusions from workable premisses, and would hardly come out again ( so alice explained it afterwards), and they gave him three cheers, while he got out a dish and fnord.
19:28:08 <Vorpal> I should totally set it to ! or ?
19:28:11 <fizzie> I used ; as the tab-separator a long time ago.
19:28:36 <fizzie> It's a compromise between , and :, obviously.
19:28:44 <fizzie> The worst of both worlds.
19:29:04 <fizzie> At any rate, I'll try to remember to use sahfach next time.
19:29:33 <mroman_> fizzie: what are you trying to do @hi HI Hi?
19:29:51 <int-e> I guess the "vice-warden" is from Sylvie and Bruno (and I did get that title wrong) indeed.
19:29:56 <fizzie> mroman_: Nothing at all, just there were three out of four on the channel already by that time.
19:30:17 <Vorpal> The "launch EFI shell" option in the "BIOS" settings screen refuses to work on my desktop hrrm
19:30:39 <blsqbot> {"H" "h" "i" "I" "HH" "Hh" "Hi" "HI" "hH" "hh" "hi" "hI" "iH" "ih" "ii" "iI" "IH
19:30:42 <blsqbot> {"HH" "Hh" "Hi" "HI" "hH" "hh" "hi" "hI" "iH" "ih" "ii" "iI" "IH" "Ih" "Ii" "II"
19:30:50 <int-e> a hollow shell, hmm
19:30:54 <blsqbot> {"Hh" "Hi" "HI" "hH" "hi" "hI" "iH" "ih" "iI" "IH" "Ih" "Ii"}
19:31:14 <Vorpal> int-e, nah "shell not found" even though I placed it in the designated location
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19:32:00 <fizzie> mroman_: I keep forgetting about the ) and the : and such.
19:32:47 <Vorpal> What language is !blsq?
19:33:15 <mroman_> that weird bloaty language ;)
19:33:36 <fizzie> I wrote one Befunge entry to anagolf too, the other day.
19:34:09 <fizzie> The weirdest thing is that they say they're using the reference interpreter, yet it seems to strip trailing newlines from lines when outputting numbers with . even though that's not part of what the reference interpreter does.
19:34:38 <elliott_> the interpreters it uses are in its source repo I think
19:35:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, they don't have befunge98 though, that is annoying
19:36:28 <fizzie> It might be a new addition.
19:37:04 <mroman_> up to three maps using ) is better
19:38:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently since Aug 31, this year.
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19:41:21 <fizzie> Hmm. The be/srv/s/bef script just does "exec /golf/local/befunge -i -q $1" (which doesn't strip newlines if I run the thing the "language version info" page links to, locally) and I didn't see the actual interpreter in the GitHub repo, though I might've missed it -- it's not part of the "fetched" things in be/Makefile either.
19:41:32 <fizzie> Oh well, it's not important. Just curious.
19:43:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of which, how is it with CCBI and source file encodings, does it load things as bytes or UTF-8 or what?
19:46:39 <fizzie> I guess it doesn't matter for fingerprint-loading anyway (the reason why I was wondering about it) since there's a multi-byte encoding built right in ( anyway, and it's even more efficient than UTF-8.
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19:48:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder, would a wchar_t befunge-98 be standard compliant
19:48:22 <Vorpal> Or would it need to be an extension
19:48:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, really? That is 4 byte per character on Linux
19:48:49 <Deewiant> The standard doesn't say anything about file encodings (or if it does, not much, IIRC)
19:49:05 <Vorpal> Should add such an option to cfunge maybe, just for fun
19:49:23 <Deewiant> I was going to implement the UTF-foos in CCBI but never got around to it
19:49:37 <fizzie> Maybe there are some hypothetical fingerprints that could be loaded shorter with 'X1( than "ab"2( where X is a two-byte UTF-8 encoding -- the ones from 0x1ff to 0x7ff, that is.
19:49:38 <Vorpal> UCS4 is reasonable though
19:50:27 <fizzie> Er, I obviously mean from 0x100.
19:52:55 <fizzie> "Funge-98 source files are made up of Funge characters. The Funge-98 character set overlays the ASCII subset used by Befunge-93 and may have characters greater than 127 present in it (and greater than 255 on systems where characters are stored in multiple bytes; but no greater than 2,147,483,647.)"
19:53:12 <fizzie> That's a curious limitation, given that the funge-space cells are not limited to anything.
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19:58:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is 2^31-1
20:03:35 <elliott_> fizzie: they're limited to the cell size, aren't they?
20:04:04 <Deewiant> elliott_: He meant that the cell size limit can be arbitrarily large
20:04:41 <fizzie> Yes. Of cells it says: "What size exactly is left up to the implementer. 32 bits is typical. 16 bit and 8 bit versions are discussed as separate variations on Funge-98. More than 32 bits is just fine."
20:05:02 <fizzie> But of characters in the source file it gives that "no greater than 2^31-1" statement.
20:05:28 <elliott_> maybe they thought of extending it past 32 bits after writing that part.
20:06:39 <Deewiant> Maybe they wanted "typical" implementations to be capable of loading any file (on systems they support)
20:11:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, and of course bignum cells is poorly supported
20:12:34 <Vorpal> I seem to remember that some test program fails on it at least due to trying to get a cell size from y (which efunge iirc returns -1 on)
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20:15:30 <zzo38> Well, UTF-8 can be used to store up to 36-bits character codes and it also is compatible with ASCII, so it could be used. (Trying to interpret it as Unicode can fail though, depending on which characters are used, because of different spacing.)
20:16:25 <Vorpal> I might do UCS4, that is all
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21:46:34 <ais523> hmm, fun spam subject line: "ARE YOU DEAD OR ALIVE????"
21:46:41 <ais523> I see it's using the Radixal!!!! approach to punctuation
21:49:38 <b_jonas> ais523: also, I'll have to check 8 days later how you solved http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world with the exact same amount of bytes
21:49:56 <b_jonas> I had to cheat to beat your solution
21:50:17 <ais523> b_jonas: my solution uses $$, I didn't realise that was considered cheating
21:50:28 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not really cheating on anagolf
21:50:36 <b_jonas> but if it uses $$ then I'm less worried
21:50:47 <b_jonas> that means you won't suddenly get ahead of me just by adding $$
21:51:05 <b_jonas> but of course you might just make it shorter by other means
21:52:38 <b_jonas> this hello hello world is a bit lucky because I have an obfu with a relevant technique on perlmonks
21:55:45 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: $$ is getpid() (except cached but that shouldn't matter) in perl and ruby
21:56:02 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: in linux, pids are only 15 bit long, so you can brute force forking until you get the right pid
21:56:18 <b_jonas> so if you need a 15 bit long integer in an anagolf entry
21:56:29 <b_jonas> you fork a lot before you submit to get the next pid right
21:56:36 <b_jonas> then submit with $$ giving the right number
21:57:41 <b_jonas> nice trick, and it happens to help here
21:58:07 <ais523> b_jonas: you're aware that there's a PID setting utility that does the bruteforcing for you, right?
21:58:17 <ais523> presumably because shinh got fed up of people hammering the server
21:58:22 <b_jonas> but that's just an implementation detail
21:58:38 <b_jonas> the attack is there anyway
21:58:53 <b_jonas> I did use the pid setting utility
21:58:56 <ais523> it's like the AceHack startscummer
22:00:23 <b_jonas> I think there are probably still more general cheating methods on anagolf open that are more powerful than just setting a pid
22:00:33 <b_jonas> but I don't think I'm going to try finding them, I don't much care
22:01:33 <b_jonas> I just wanted some light golfing and I'm happy I beat you... so far. but I think you'll come back.
22:02:24 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, the standard rule with me and anagolf is that I never win
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22:02:40 <ais523> mostly I'm just aiming for interesting short solutions, rather than the shortest
22:02:51 <ais523> sometimes I win by being the only person to submit a language, but that's typically only for the really obscure ones
22:02:54 <ais523> I think I solved a problem in m4 once
22:03:10 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, goruby seems to be easy to go for because nobody seems to submit in it
22:03:17 <ais523> which is really awkward because the only method m4 has to do input is the m4 translation of C's "#include </dev/stdin>"
22:03:21 <b_jonas> and it's efficient for many problems
22:03:47 <ais523> this means you have to rely on the sample input parsing correctly as m4; luckily, that's not very hard, m4's syntax is pretty general
22:04:00 <ais523> but things like unbalanced parens really screw you up
22:04:10 <b_jonas> you can change the quotes but not the parens
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22:05:17 <b_jonas> I think if you wanted to win on anagolf, you'd have to write translators that compile a simple language to many obscure languages, resulting in long programs, so you're often the only one for languges
22:05:40 <b_jonas> also, I was wondering why anagolf doesn't have metapost or metafont. are their io capabilities that bad?
22:05:59 <b_jonas> maybe we should make a version of metapost with a bit better io statements
22:06:45 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: yes, anagolf can do that
22:06:49 <zzo38> METAFONT can only input from a file and cannot change the characters like TeX can; TeX can change the interpretation of each character so it has more general input.
22:07:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: how about output? can you suppress the initial hello message from metapost or metafont?
22:07:55 <b_jonas> does that even go to stdout or stderr? let me check
22:08:38 <zzo38> b_jonas: No you cannot change the initial message in METAFONT or in TeX.
22:09:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: how about in metapost?
22:09:05 <zzo38> Bicyclidine: That is implementation-specific; some implementations might support it.
22:09:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know how metapost works, sorry.
22:09:26 <Bicyclidine> having a welcome message is standard but turning it off isn't?
22:09:46 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: it's three decades old. computers worked differently back then.
22:10:19 <zzo38> Note you can still do I/O with files; you don't have to use stdin/stdout.
22:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i 'learnt' m4 several years ago, it was quite the experience
22:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's like a glorious, multicoloured trainwreck of macro abuse
22:12:03 <zzo38> *All* command-line switches to TeX and METAFONT are implementation-specific, actually.
22:12:59 <fizzie> ais523: I've been looking into writing some z80 solutions, though the one I've submitted isn't terribly golfy.
22:13:29 <ais523> fizzie: what libc support do you have in the z80 mode?
22:13:37 <fizzie> ais523: There's a getchar and a putchar.
22:13:42 <fizzie> ais523: And that's it.
22:14:09 <fizzie> Most of my 48-byte code is probably related to printing decimal numbers, in fact.
22:18:08 <fizzie> A fun thing about it (this is directly from the info-page) is that it fills the memory with zeros, loads the submission at $0000 and puts the library code at $8000 (putchar) and $8003 (getchar); since 0 is the Z80 nop instruction, it's often shorter to do "rst 38h" (or fall off the end of the program) than to "call 8000h" -- it's equivalent, except the system will have to execute about 32K of nops there.
22:19:08 <ais523> fizzie: NOP sleds are a known machine language programming technique
22:19:18 <ais523> although they're mostly used maliciously
22:21:54 <fizzie> I don't know how they've implemented the "system calls", and why it's exactly those addresses; the bytes at $8000..$800f are all 0 in terms of reading data from those addresses. Perhaps the emulator just triggers something based on the PC.
22:22:35 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps the address lines are hooked up to virtual hardware
22:23:01 <ais523> I know lots of old consoles used "attempt to write to ROM" as the method of triggering a hardwired syscall
22:23:08 <ais523> like "swap to a different bank of memory"
22:24:20 <zzo38> Yes, it also might depend on the cartridge, such as in Famicom it is done in many cartridges and not inside of the computer itself.
22:26:53 <Bicyclidine> i'm told some star wars game for wii starts with essentially (NULL)();
22:27:55 <ais523> Bicyclidine: gcc-bf does that in its implementation of _exit
22:28:00 <ais523> only it's written as "goto *(void *)0;"
22:29:28 <zzo38> Especially in assembly language programs it can be useful
22:29:55 * Bicyclidine writing a jump table by hand yesterday, can't exactly disagree...
22:30:27 <Bicyclidine> it works, i'm so excited to be programming at an innovative 1960s level
22:31:21 <ais523> hmm, if you have a switch statement where all the branches are similar enough that they have identical numbers of bytes
22:31:44 <ais523> do compilers compile that into a computed goto that just uses a multiplication and addition to find the address?
22:32:10 <Bicyclidine> i tried that last time, didn't work though
22:32:28 <Bicyclidine> (with a shift rather than a full multiply, ofc)
22:32:49 <ais523> depends on the processor
22:33:00 <LordCreepity> ais523: i imagine that is uses a jmp instruction
22:33:01 <ais523> modern processors are normally memory-bandwidth-bound, so a multiply isn't actually any slower than a shift
22:33:20 <Bicyclidine> the one i'm using has a separate multiplier unit, so
22:33:38 <zzo38> In 6502 there is an indirect jump instruction, but it can't do much.
22:33:47 <zzo38> So sometimes "RTS trick" is used instead.
22:34:52 <zzo38> This involves creating a jump table in a separate low half and high half, storing the address one less than the actual target address. (There are other variants of this, but this is my preferred way to do the RTS trick.)
22:35:39 <fizzie> ais523: There was an article about how GCC compiles switch statements; I have a feeling it always does at least a table of addresses, instead of computing it arithmetically from the condition. I know mooz did that for his TI-86 Befunge interpreter manually.
22:36:25 <Bicyclidine> oh, that reminds me, someone had a build process taking 11 GB of ram 'cos llvm decided it needed to make a really good jump table for this hundreds of entries switch
22:36:53 <ais523> Bicyclidine: wow, that's even worse than aimake
22:37:03 <ais523> (which can now build NetHack in under 512 MB!)
22:37:20 <zzo38> It isn't very good, especially if LLVM cannot have option to limit usage of RAM and stuff like that
22:38:03 <zzo38> And if it tries to allocate memory needed for an optimization and fails at it, it should probably just skip that optimization and continue anyways.
22:38:26 <zzo38> (In verbose mode, it could display a message to tell you about that.)
22:38:27 <Bicyclidine> i've seen a lot of compilers do badly on generated code, really
22:38:46 <Bicyclidine> i just want you to do this halting problem equivalent operation within bounded space, lazy jerks
22:39:29 <Bicyclidine> oh, here we go lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2013-November/068163.html
22:40:28 <fizzie> ais523: I don't know anything about GCC internals, but it sounds quite possible the actual byte sizes of the case blocks might not quite be available at the time when it's deciding whether to go with a jump table or some other kind of dispatch.
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22:40:50 <ais523> fizzie: I know more about GCC internals than I probably should, and I'm not entirely sure whether it does or not
22:41:09 <ais523> that seems like the same sort of problem as an instruction scheduler
22:41:20 <ais523> and gcc's internals aren't designed for instruction schedulers to work at all, really
22:41:58 <fizzie> It doesn't do it for one simple test case, which is of course not proof of anything: http://sprunge.us/bcbU
22:43:14 <ais523> fizzie: that's the sort of program where it'd be trivial to beat the compiler, I think
22:43:15 <Bicyclidine> you know what's fun, is a case statement that works on constant strings in its cases
22:43:29 <ais523> is this with -Os? that's the only optimization level where you can really play beat-the-compiler objectively
22:43:36 <ais523> because it's hard to know what will or won't be faster, but you can easily count bytes
22:43:56 <ais523> Bicyclidine: that compares content, presumably, rather than addresses?
22:44:02 <fizzie> ais523: Yes. With -O3 it will put a separate "jmp f" in each case.
22:44:22 <zzo38> In Z-machine, the speed of muliplications and shifts are implementation-dependent, however I think multiplication will probably be faster. But multiplication results in smaller code, though, regardless of that.
22:44:54 <Bicyclidine> so you can discriminate on length, make a tree of character comparisons for when strings have the same char at the same position...
22:44:56 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know if it can take advantage of if all unspecified cases are specified as being impossible?
22:45:33 <ais523> zzo38: gcc and clang already interpret undefined behaviour as a "this will never happen" case and optimize accordingly
22:45:42 <ais523> I'm not sure if there's an "official" way to write it, though
22:45:47 <ais523> perhaps there's a __builtin_unreachable or the like
22:46:37 <zzo38> On my computer it says "__builtin_unreachable" is not defined.
22:46:45 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: what's the halting problem equivalent operation?
22:46:49 <zzo38> (It is mentioned in GCC documentation, though.)
22:47:10 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: if you're only optimising constant factors, not that hard
22:47:30 <elliott_> in that you can compile naively to get upper bounds and then brute force it
22:47:45 <Bicyclidine> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.5.0/gcc/Other-Builtins.html#Other-Builtins this has builtin_unreachable
22:48:10 <zzo38> In LLVM it is just called "unreachable", I think.
22:48:46 <zzo38> However I was told that if there is a branch to such a thing, it will just remove that branch instead of necessarily assuming the condition is never true. I don't know if it has been changed by now, though.
22:49:47 <Bicyclidine> "Another use for __builtin_unreachable is following a call a function that never returns but that is not declared __attribute__((noreturn))" good stuff, good stuff
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22:50:43 <fizzie> C11 adds a standard _Noreturn function specifier, by the way.
22:51:05 <Bicyclidine> is that like some kinda c11 attribute, or do you just have a million specifiers before each function name
22:51:24 <fizzie> Syntactically it's a function-specifier exactly like 'inline'.
22:51:40 <fizzie> And there are a total of two of them: 'inline' and '_Noreturn'.
22:51:57 <ais523> and _Noreturn is similar enough to __attribute__((noreturn)) that you can switch between them with the preprocessor and typically won't break your program
22:52:04 <zzo38> Is it allowed to specify both?
22:52:48 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I suppose you can check in the preprocessor if it is GNU C older than C11, other C older than C11, or if it is C11, and redefine _Noreturn correspondingly? Is that OK?
22:52:59 <fizzie> "7.23 _Noreturn <stdnoreturn.h>: The header <stdnoreturn.h> defines the macro 'noreturn' which expands to '_Noreturn'." I wonder if this is the shortest library chapter in the standard.
22:53:28 <Bicyclidine> sheesh, how am i supposed to portably tell the compiler something takes a format string and returns a value aligned in a way specified by the third argument and should be exported in dlls
22:53:48 <fizzie> Even <stdalign.h> and <stdbool.h> include at least a couple of other things in addition to their "_Foo"-to-"foo" macro.
22:54:10 <ais523> I just looked at my stdnoreturn.h
22:54:15 <ais523> the comment is much longer than the file itself
22:54:27 <ais523> (which consists of a multiple inclusion guard, and a check to see if it's C++, and the definition in question)
22:54:30 <zzo38> Bicyclidine: I don't know if that can be done portably in a C code, although I believe LLVM has commands to do that, at least (I don't know if the provided C compiler supports such functions though).
22:54:47 <zzo38> Probably you would have to use conditional compilations if doing it in a C code.
22:54:47 <fizzie> Oh ho! The one in clang defines __noreturn_is_defined, too.
22:55:08 <fizzie> (<stdalign.h> defines __alignas_is_defined and __alignof_is_defined -- I guess they've copied that.)
22:57:05 <Bicyclidine> and there's /usr/include/stdio.h but it's defined in terms of iostreams... unixes are so confusing.
22:57:20 <fizzie> The clang comment is slightly bizarre: http://sprunge.us/aCJI?c -- presumably that's the "this permission notice", but what then is "the above copyright notice"? (And is this really a "substantial portion".)
22:58:00 <fizzie> The header situation is further confused by the fact that the standard headers are a mix of compiler-specific stuff from compiler-specific directories and C-library-specific-stuff from wherever the libc headers are.
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23:22:16 <ais523> things that confuse my instincts: the CPU not getting hot when I run a compile on a remotely hosted VM
23:23:10 <Melvar> Hey, what was the lispy name for lists of alternating keys and values?
23:28:44 <elliott_> not sure it has a name but ((k . v) (k . v) ...) is an alist
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23:32:47 <Melvar> Right, that’s the usual. But I’m pretty sure reading somewhere that there was a name for the rarer (k v k v …) type too, and it was also some letter on the front of “list”.
23:33:44 <elliott_> arclist, since only paul graham likes them :p
23:38:28 <ais523> elliott_: there's one in the Java stdlib internals
23:38:36 <ais523> it's completely awful because k and v have entirely different types
23:38:42 <ais523> so it has to use an array of Objects and cast everywhere
23:39:18 <Melvar> The context: I’m writing a List (Foo, Bar) out “[(k, v), (k, v), …]” and was thinking that surely I can get idris to allow me to write “[k, v, k, v, …]” too and convert once, with type safety and totality respected.
23:39:41 <ais523> Melvar: I find it hard to see how that'd break totality
23:39:51 <ais523> unless you have a sometimes_cast operator or the like, that errors out if given bad arguments
23:39:59 <ais523> that's really just a lack of type safety though IMO
23:40:26 <elliott_> Melvar: how does [] notation desugar in idris?
23:41:07 <Melvar> elliott_: Applications of (::) and Nil, unqualified.
23:42:07 <elliott_> Melvar: I guess you just want the idris equivalent of data AltList a b = Nil | Cons a (AltList b a), then? though I suppose you want to enforce the even length
23:44:34 <Melvar> Right, I do, which I could do by having two mutually inductive types, or indexing the type with a Bool. Or I could write two functions (::) that do the right thing with combinations of lists and pairs …
23:45:37 <elliott_> (::) :: a -> [(a,b)] -> (a,[(a,b)]); (::) :: b -> (a,[(a,b)]) -> [(a,b)], I guess?
23:47:31 <Melvar> With the order in the pairs swapped, but otherwise yes.
23:47:48 <Melvar> Also, what mixery of syntaxes.
23:49:22 <elliott_> (::) :: {a : Type} -> a -> (b : Type) -> {a = b} -> Stmt
23:49:41 <elliott_> I like how I then started using :
23:50:16 <Melvar> > :let AltList.Even.(::) : a -> (b, List (a, b)) -> List (a, b); AltList.Even.(::) x (y, ps) = (x, y) :: ps
23:50:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
23:50:25 <Melvar> ( :let AltList.Even.(::) : a -> (b, List (a, b)) -> List (a, b); AltList.Even.(::) x (y, ps) = (x, y) :: ps
23:51:27 <Melvar> ( :let AltList.Uneven.(::) : b -> List (a, b) -> (b, List (a, b)); AltList.Uneven.(::) = MkPair
23:52:00 <Melvar> ( the (List (String, Bool)) ["foo",True,"bar",False]
23:52:00 <idris-bot> [("foo", True), ("bar", False)] : List (String, Bool)
23:52:31 <Melvar> ( the (List (_,_)) ["foo",True,"bar",False]
23:52:31 <idris-bot> [("foo", True), ("bar", False)] : List (String, Bool)
23:53:15 * Melvar is shamelessly exploiting [,] overloading.
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23:54:09 <Melvar> ( the (List _) ["foo",True,"bar",False]
23:54:09 <idris-bot> [("foo", True), ("bar", False)] : List (String, Bool)
23:55:16 <Melvar> ( the (List _) ["foo",True,"bar"]
23:55:16 <idris-bot> (input):1:15:When elaborating an application of constructor Prelude.List.:::
23:55:54 <ais523> is String↵ like String but it ends with a newline?
23:56:51 <Melvar> The ↵… is an indication by the bot that more output would follow after a newline.
23:57:16 <Melvar> Whereas … by itself indicates that a line was too long.
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03:23:11 <zzo38> I get a message "warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90". What should I do about that? The relevant line of code is: if(x&1) mt[ind]^=2567483615L;
03:23:33 <elliott_> use UL suffix instead, I think
03:23:50 <ais523> I think either works, but I always use UL
03:24:17 <ais523> `! long unsigned x = 4LU; printf("%lu\n", x);
03:24:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/long: not found
03:24:21 <ais523> `! c long unsigned x = 4LU; printf("%lu\n", x);
03:24:29 <ais523> `! c long unsigned x = 4UL; printf("%lu\n", x);
03:24:55 <ais523> hmm, there are too many things that could have gone wrong there
03:25:05 <ais523> `! c printf("Hello, world!\n");
03:25:21 <ais523> `! c extern int puts(const char *); puts("Hello, world!");
03:25:25 <HackEgo> botsnack \ buttsnack \ calc \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ echo \ echo \ emoclew \ fsck \ gccrun \ icode \ lowercase \ luac \ luarocks \ luarocks-admin \ macro \ marco \ morse-decode \ multicode \ ozcome \ psocmd \ qc \ quachaf \ r13elcome \ rec \ relcome \ ReLcOmE \ runc \ runcp
03:25:33 <zzo38> The variable is the same size; I am not sure why it should display a warning in such a case.
03:25:36 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:6: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant
03:25:39 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:6: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant
03:25:40 <ais523> which is awkward, because I can't include it without a newline
03:25:53 <elliott_> ais523: I think it interprets \n
03:26:28 <ais523> `! c long unsigned x = 4UL; printf("%lu\\n", x);
03:26:37 <ais523> `! c long unsigned x = 4LU; printf("%lu\\n", x);
03:27:19 <elliott_> `! c unsigned long x = 4UUL; printf("%lu\\n", x);
03:27:43 <zzo38> OK, I put UL instead of just L and now it isn't warning, but like I said it shouldn't matter in this case if it is signed or not.
03:28:08 <zzo38> (Since, the type of the variable is long, too)
03:28:49 <elliott_> I think the problem is that it's too big for the signed version
03:28:57 <elliott_> because the C standard only guarantees literals of a certain size or whatever
03:29:29 <ais523> if you have a constant between the range of int and unsigned int, then it depends on the standards version whether its type is unsigned or long
03:29:36 <ais523> which can definitely matter if you use it in a comparison, or the like
03:30:04 <ais523> this is why gcc is complaining, it's telling you to specify the type in order to avoid confusion later
03:30:27 <ais523> unsigned or long long, in this case, because you presumably have sizeof (int) == sizeof (long)
03:31:45 <zzo38> But as you can see, it isn't a comparison.
03:33:16 <ais523> elliott_: otherwise "L" wouldn't be ambiguous, it'd be unambiguously long
03:33:35 <ais523> there's a very small chance that int is only 16 bits and long is 32 bits; higher than usual because this is zzo38 we're talking about
03:33:56 <zzo38> Don't you need two "L"s for "long long"?
03:34:08 <ais523> zzo38: yes, and that would also be unambiguous
03:34:30 <ais523> basically gcc's complaining that the constant should either be 2567483615UL or 2567483615LL
03:34:37 <ais523> and which it is depends on whether you're using c89 or c99
03:35:17 <zzo38> O, that's what it means.
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03:42:47 <madbr> ais523 : isn't sizeof int 4 and sizeof long long 8? (and then long is 4 bytes on msvc and 8 on gcc)
03:43:41 <ais523> madbr: not always, although those are very common nowadays
03:43:50 <ais523> I grew up on compilers where sizeof (int) was 2
03:43:59 <madbr> that's 20 years ago
03:44:01 <ais523> also, note that you need the parens when using sizeof on types
03:44:29 <madbr> I think it's sparc that has 64bit ints?
03:44:40 <madbr> it's one of the 64bit RISCs
03:45:00 <elliott_> ABI is an OS thing as well as an architecture thing
03:45:06 <madbr> irl it doesn't really make sense because you rarely need ints that large
03:45:17 <elliott_> for instance long is 32-bits on x86-64 windows and 64-bits on x86-64 linux
03:45:30 <madbr> so you should never use long
03:45:38 <madbr> unless you like things breaking
03:46:51 <ais523> madbr: I use "long" as a sort of ghetto uint_least32_t
03:46:51 <elliott_> well, the same applies to int, really.
03:46:57 <elliott_> platform-specific integer sizes aren't a great idea.
03:47:01 <madbr> ais523 : why not int?
03:47:32 <madbr> if you compile on a platform with 16bit ints probably everything will break
03:47:44 <elliott_> I agree, your code probably doesn't work on embedded platforms
03:47:45 <madbr> array with more than 16k values? break
03:47:48 <ais523> madbr: many of my programs needed changes to work with 32bit ints
03:47:55 <elliott_> I think ais523's code is significantly more likely to
03:48:05 <ais523> basically because the Windows API had a number of breaking changes in terms of source code between 3.1 and 95
03:48:07 <elliott_> madbr: um, arrays are indexed by size_t, not int
03:48:19 <ais523> and I was inexperienced enough not to be aware of portability issues
03:48:25 <ais523> Windows upgrades soon trained me differently, though
03:48:41 <ais523> Windows may be good at running old binaries, but it's rather less good at compiling old source
03:48:45 <madbr> elliott_ : that's really an embedded platform thing tbh
03:48:57 <elliott_> what? no. int is 32 bits on x86-64 linux and you can have arrays bigger than 2 gigabytes
03:49:15 <Bicyclidine> sed -i '/%lu/%zu/' * # magically, errors disappear
03:49:19 <ais523> (also, there were a number of issues, e.g. the standard way to play a MIDI file on Windows 98 freezes your program for like 30 seconds the first time you try it on Windows XP)
03:49:26 <madbr> if you have a 2gb array there almost is certainly somethinbg else wrong with your code
03:49:30 <Bicyclidine> warnings, whatev, everything's catastrophic
03:50:22 <elliott_> madbr: a minute ago you were saying size_t is an embedded platform thing?
03:50:38 <madbr> no what I'm saying is that 16bit int is an embedded platform thing
03:50:47 <elliott_> are you just making up context-free rebuttals that sound snappy rather than ever admitting you're wrong
03:51:31 <madbr> what I'm saying is that yes 16bit platforms are a thing, but irl it's very unlikely that general c++ code will even run on those
03:51:43 <ais523> madbr: I wrote C++ on 16-bit platforms for years
03:52:12 <madbr> 16bit x86 WAS a thing
03:52:16 <madbr> but it's long dead
03:52:31 <madbr> elliott_ : once again, embedded platform
03:52:39 <ais523> "long" = "approximately when Vista was released"
03:52:43 <ais523> that's not that long ago, people still use XP
03:52:48 <elliott_> I was talking about C, I'm pretty sure ais523 was too
03:52:54 <elliott_> what do embedded platforms have to do with it?
03:52:56 <madbr> 16bit has been dead since win32
03:53:11 <ais523> elliott_: I "learned" C++ before C
03:53:16 <madbr> like, sure you can run 16bit apps on win95
03:53:30 <madbr> but there was no reason to make new ones from then on
03:53:57 <zzo38> I still write 16-bit DOS programs sometimes though
03:54:15 <Bicyclidine> i "learned" c++ before c also, it's pretty hilariosu
03:54:20 <madbr> ah... all the dos programs I've written were 32 bit
03:54:30 <elliott_> do you think nobody uses c on embedded platforms because they all use c++ or something, or...
03:54:34 <ais523> madbr: there was plenty of reason, and that's that the 32-bit development toolchain I had didn't actually work
03:54:42 <ais523> like, it worked sometimes
03:54:52 <ais523> but it would frequently fail in bizarre circumstances
03:54:56 <madbr> elliott_ : no what I mean is, if you're writing embedded platform code, yes then 16bit C totally makes sense
03:54:59 <ais523> 16-bit was a lot more stable back then
03:55:04 <madbr> but it's a marginal case
03:55:13 <ais523> you have to realise that 32-bit code was new and relatively untested, so most people used 16-bit
03:55:24 <ais523> also I got to control the PC speaker, which was a Windows 1 feature that was deprecated
03:55:35 <ais523> but trying to play music via MIDI, the next-simplest method, was still way more complex
03:55:43 <madbr> for other, non embedded applications, there's no way 16 bit even exists anymore
03:56:16 <ais523> hmm, I'm not sure if I could still run my old programs
03:56:22 <ais523> at least one version of DNA Maze was Win16 API
03:56:51 <Bicyclidine> sounds like this is a good time to talk at length about methylation
03:57:00 <ais523> it's a computer game that I used to work on, ages ago
03:57:14 <madbr> so except for embedded platforms, you're now 100% guaranteed that int's will be at least 32 bits no matter what
03:57:21 <ais523> it was originally for DOS, then I reworked the level select leading to a new major version
03:57:37 <elliott_> madbr: is this desigend to troll people into finding counterexamples? because it's almost working on me :)
03:57:37 <ais523> then it got ported to various other systems, such as Win16 and some Linux (I think SDL1)
03:57:53 <elliott_> (I suspect you would just define "embedded platform" as "platform with 16-bit int", though, which isn't really entirely unreasonable.)
03:57:56 <ais523> do you count games consoles as embedded platforms?
03:58:23 <ais523> elliott_: a nice working definition for "embedded platform" is "platform for which dynamic allocation would be an utterly crazy idea"
03:58:27 <madbr> elliott_ : ok what 16bit platform that isn't embedded could you possibly want to write for?
03:58:56 <Bicyclidine> that's not a bad definition and now i want to write malloc on my pic32
03:59:06 <elliott_> madbr: you're asking that in #esoteric? :p
03:59:08 <madbr> the traditional examples were real mode DOS and win16 but those are long gone
03:59:35 <zzo38> For such "embedded platform" (whatever youre definition will be) I don't program them in C anyways.
03:59:36 <madbr> I guess there's always real mode boot loaders
03:59:51 <elliott_> madbr: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher would have 24 bit int, maybe.
04:00:00 <madbr> for 8 bit platforms... you're going to write in assembly
04:00:02 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, although I suppose you could write them in assembly language instead of in C.
04:00:06 <elliott_> uh, I guess that's maybe not allowed
04:00:27 <Bicyclidine> what, does it have to be 2^n * CHAR_BIT? suxk
04:00:32 <zzo38> I suppose FreeDOS is also real mode, although it can run programs in protected mode too
04:00:34 <madbr> elliott_ : does it have a C compiler?
04:01:06 <ais523> does FreeDOS ship its own DPMI extender? or do you have to provide one?
04:01:37 <madbr> elliott_ : until that happens, you're guarenteed 32 bit ints
04:02:01 <madbr> there's also the question of platforms with 64 bit ints
04:02:21 <ais523> let's compromise on 48
04:02:25 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know, although perhaps it ought to include such a thing.
04:02:39 <ais523> zzo38: I know that for the NetHack TAS, I had to include a DPMI extender
04:02:54 <ais523> but I can't remember whether that's because FreeDOS doesn't have one, or because it didn't emulate correctly in JPC-RR
04:03:05 <madbr> and the answer is that we've stopped making those... basically they figured that 64bits were too large for most uses
04:03:43 <ais523> madbr: supercomputers often have 64-bit ints
04:03:47 <ais523> some DSPs have 32-bit chars
04:04:07 <madbr> and they're basically making 64bit architectures to mix up 32bit data with 64bit pointers (arm64 has a whole bunch of instructions dedicated to mixes and conversions etc)
04:04:43 <zzo38> There are also some VMs having bytes longer than 8-bits (such as 16-bits or 32-bits)
04:04:51 <madbr> ais523 : you mean like word addressed DSPs?
04:05:25 <madbr> though afaik it's rare to run general purpose code on these
04:05:37 <ais523> madbr: what do you mean by "general purpose code", though?
04:05:49 <ais523> an FFT is pretty general-purpose, and DSTs run those all the time
04:06:05 <elliott_> really I think we should just have stdint.h and remove all of C's integer types.
04:06:33 <elliott_> and maybe give the "least" versions shorter names, but maybe not since platform-specific overflow bugs are uuurgh.
04:06:36 <zzo38> Or to define them in the other way around
04:06:50 <madbr> ais523 : code that isn't purpose-written for that particular use? and that does all sorts of stdlib calls, std::, are designed for modern paged memory protected stuff, C++...
04:07:09 <ais523> madbr: every program is purpose-written for something or other, unless it's a general-use library
04:07:12 <madbr> like, I'm pretty sure none of these DSPs have an MMU
04:07:16 <ais523> and many general-use libraries hardly touch stdlib
04:07:23 <madbr> consequently something like std::map would probably leak
04:08:22 <elliott_> dude, you're the one bringing C++ into this.
04:08:48 <madbr> like, the sound processing code I'm writing these days, runs on x86 of course, and I know very well that it has to be easy to run on ARM
04:09:00 <madbr> because that port has very high chances of happening
04:09:42 <madbr> and that I should perhaps not count on byte order because a port to POWER could still happen maybe (nintendo wii u etc)
04:10:52 <madbr> but if it has to be ported to a word addressed DSP, then it's going to have all sorts of special limitations like no threading, no mmu or paging, very small ram, no fpu, etc...
04:11:15 <madbr> and consequently it's going to have to be specially written more or less no matter what
04:11:33 <madbr> so there's little point in keeping in mind that sort of platform when writing code
04:11:43 <elliott_> look, there's a world of programming outside your very insular conception of it (which you call "general-purpose", I guess), and C is designed to cover a hell of a lot of that world. that's what it comes down to
04:12:28 <madbr> the code I write is C++, not C
04:12:49 <ais523> madbr: sound-processing code is something that people are quite likely to want to run on a DSP, fwiw
04:13:14 <madbr> ais523 : it can happen yes
04:13:24 <elliott_> madbr: yes, and as I've been trying to point out the conversation was about C before you joined in and continued to be about C thereafter until you brought C++ into it
04:13:27 <madbr> but IRL it involves making a hardware product, basically
04:13:52 <madbr> there's no computer, cell phone or console platform where you can even write for the DSP
04:14:00 <madbr> when there is one at all
04:14:11 <ais523> how do you think people do DSP development?
04:14:28 <madbr> it's not my line of work tbh
04:14:34 <madbr> so I'm not too familiar
04:14:59 <ais523> madbr: well, what you do is, you use an IDE, and use it to compile your files into executables, just like with any other IDE
04:15:15 <madbr> but then you have to be hooked into a devkit
04:15:19 <madbr> or something like that
04:15:19 <ais523> then you tell it to copy the executables onto the DSP, which is connected to the computer via a special programming device
04:15:32 <madbr> yes special programming device
04:15:44 <madbr> that's what I mean when I say "hardware product"
04:15:57 <ais523> madbr: well given that the DSP isn't powerful enough to run an IDE itself…
04:16:32 <madbr> like, if you're programming a DSP, you're obviously not making a product that is a win32 program
04:16:43 <ais523> madbr: this is no different from, say, programming a cellphone
04:17:01 <ais523> and more to the point, nothing prevents you from simply copying in code from elsewhere
04:17:27 <madbr> true but it's still a "special" platform
04:18:45 <madbr> like, does it even make sense to run C++ on that kind of DSP?
04:19:05 <elliott_> ais523: not sure if you've noticed, but nothing you can say will get any kind of acknowledgement that you're in the right here
04:19:37 <ais523> elliott_: I know, but I'm kind-of stressed in RL and taking on a pointless argument's a good way to relax
04:19:51 <madbr> ok fine you COULD want to port any piece of C/C++ code to word addressed architectures
04:20:17 <madbr> or other similar architectures
04:20:23 <madbr> and in that special case your assumption that int is 32bits will break and you will cry
04:20:32 <shachaf> how about an argument on the topic of pointless topology
04:21:31 <elliott_> imagine if you just used a type that wasn't int if you knew you needed 32 bits of range
04:21:33 <ais523> madbr: and if you'd just used int32_t or int_least32_t or long, everything would have been fine
04:22:02 <shachaf> well, at least it's a thing where you don't talk about the points?
04:22:05 <madbr> ais523 : in that case I'd just search and replace "int" for "int32_t"
04:22:06 <ais523> a couple of days ago, I needed a type whose semantics was "a bitfield of 32 bits, addressed arithmetically"
04:22:11 <ais523> madbr: haha seriously?
04:22:18 <ais523> have you any idea how much that would break?
04:22:21 <shachaf> as in you just talk about the lattice of open sets or something
04:22:25 <madbr> ais523 : depends how large it is
04:22:31 <ais523> madbr: a hint: pointers exist
04:22:56 <madbr> ais523 : if the code is small then obviously I'll check each use
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04:23:06 <elliott_> imagine if you wrote code that wasn't broken, instead of trying to patch it up after the fact
04:23:12 <ais523> wait, you'd be /more/ likely to s/int/int32_t/g if the codebase was large?
04:23:32 <madbr> if the codebase is large then it's more of a problem
04:23:55 <madbr> but then if the codebase is large I think it's very unlikely to be something you'd run on a DSP
04:24:27 <madbr> it's not my area of expertise but AFAIK normally that sort of platform is a general purpose CPU + a DSP
04:24:44 <madbr> and most of the code runs on the CPU except the number crunching stuff of course
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04:25:46 <ais523> madbr: I've used a DSP once; in that situation, it was connected on the analog side to a custom-built RF→IF mixer and antenna (not superheterodyne, we used software for that); and on the digital side to a CPU running ucLinux (wasn't a Raspberry Pi, but probably would have been if they had been invented at the time, it was the same sort of thing)
04:26:10 <elliott_> raspberry pis are big enough to just run normal linux
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04:26:41 <madbr> ais523 : right. how much code ran on the DSP itself, as opposed to the rest of the system? (presumably an ARM?)
04:26:47 <ais523> elliott_: right, this system was also only just big enough
04:26:56 <ais523> we had to uninstall ALSA to fit Python on there
04:27:15 <ais523> (we were looking for packages that were part of the stock install but that we didn't need)
04:28:01 <ais523> madbr: the DSP itself did AM and FM demodulation; the rest of the system did Morse Code unencoding and had a rudimentary UI
04:28:26 <ais523> although most of that system was soft realtime code to communicate with the DSP fast enough
04:29:13 <madbr> right, so most of that system ran on a cpu where int was 32bits and everything was byte addressed? :D
04:29:47 <ais523> depends on what you mean by "most"
04:30:10 <ais523> most of that system was the RF→IF mixer and antenna
04:30:22 <ais523> it was a 10-person team, only 2 of us worked on the CPU portion of it
04:31:06 <elliott_> ais523: huh, python will run on uclinux?
04:31:09 <ais523> admittedly, we got two people building the power supply because they were dangerously incompetent, and that was a small enough part of the project that we hoped we'd be able to fix whatever they came up with within a few minutes
04:31:16 <ais523> elliott_: apparently so
04:31:26 <elliott_> ais523: I guess they care about portability to embedded systems, like some kind of weird C programmers
04:31:31 <ais523> I mean, malloc() works just fine on uclinux, the most common thing you can't do is mmap()
04:31:38 <ais523> and mmap() is relatively obscure
04:34:51 <madbr> what was the DSP code written in?
04:35:16 <ais523> C, except I kept looking at the generated asm, then tweaking the C until I got the output I wanted, because the compiler wasn't very good
04:35:24 <ais523> I wrote an interrupt handler in asm, but that was just 8 bytes long
04:36:15 <ais523> (of machine code; it was longer in asm, obviously)
04:36:41 <ais523> that DSP had a different word size for code than for data, and IIRC, neither was 8
04:36:57 <madbr> yeah that was what I was going to ask
04:37:09 <madbr> if it had separate memory buses for code and data basically
04:38:20 <madbr> if you run my code over that kind of thing, it will break horribly, yes
04:38:25 <ais523> it might have had 14-bit words for code, but that might have been a different system
04:38:28 <madbr> I don't expect to see that day
04:38:47 <ais523> also, it takes a lot of effort to write C or C++ code that breaks when code and data address spaces are separate
04:38:56 <ais523> you can't cast between void * and void (*)() for a reason
04:39:16 <elliott_> without going outside the standard
04:40:03 <ais523> elliott_: there's no method that's guaranteed to work
04:40:15 <ais523> however, if you just write the cast, it's likely to work on all the compilers that are capable of supporting it
04:40:16 <madbr> I think a lot of "general purpose architecture" code would break if you couldn't cast from void * to void (*)()
04:40:25 <elliott_> ais523: you can do lots of things relying on UB :p
04:40:46 <ais523> elliott_: obviously it isn't possible without going outside the standard otherwise, because there are some pieces of hardware on which it's literally impossible
04:40:51 <Bicyclidine> oh oh hey i have a question about code and data address spaces
04:40:58 <elliott_> I think POSIX guarantees (void *) and (void (*)()) are intercastable
04:41:00 <Bicyclidine> are there harvard architecture machines where you can't jump to data memory
04:41:12 <Bicyclidine> because i assumed that wouldn't work, but apparently it does for the particular microcontrollers class uses
04:41:38 <madbr> Bicyclidine : does it have a separate memory bus for code?
04:42:08 <Bicyclidine> which... now i'm wondering how that works bus-wise, hm
04:42:08 <ais523> Bicyclidine: jumping to data wouldn't work on most of the microcontrollers I've used
04:42:23 <ais523> it also doesn't even work on most modern computers with modern operating systems
04:42:31 <madbr> I didn't knew there were microcontrollers with MMUs
04:42:33 <ais523> at least, not unless you specifically tell the MMU that that's what you're planning to do
04:42:35 <Bicyclidine> maybe i should actually try it instead of just asking
04:43:25 <Bicyclidine> http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?product=PIC32MX460F512L is it
04:43:48 <Bicyclidine> though i don't think that mentions the mmu. well, you could always check the thousand pages of manual
04:44:15 <ais523> Microchip manuals are fun
04:44:27 <ais523> you know how most systems have UB, and things you shouldn't do in case they break in future?
04:44:46 <ais523> Microchip lets you know what happens if you do them anyway, and even give advice on it
04:45:08 <Bicyclidine> let's see, i think i remember reading from some of the pseudoregisters being undefined
04:45:09 <ais523> "this register's designed for programming the UART, but you can just use it for an extra byte of storage if the UART isn't active"
04:45:40 <madbr> Bicyclidine : it's a MIPS
04:45:49 <madbr> well, embedded mips
04:46:14 <Bicyclidine> that would be kind of neat, actually, you could use the io ports for special atomically partiallyrewritable storage
04:46:27 <Bicyclidine> a whole, like, 72 bits or something. homey
04:47:16 <madbr> then I guess it makes sense that jumping to data would probably work
04:47:56 <madbr> because it's a larger architecture and more general purpose?
04:48:25 <madbr> like it's a small version of a general purpose CPU
04:54:14 <madbr> with many nice things like a single cycle multiply :D
04:55:15 <Bicyclidine> oh, i guess you can save cycles by doing that and then the multiply-add things etc before putting it back into core regs, huh
05:06:15 <quintopia> madbr: a single cycle multiply at what clock speed?
05:07:33 <madbr> that's faster than a pentium
05:08:27 <madbr> for integer multiply, anyways
05:24:12 <quintopia> most things these days are faster than a pentium :P
05:24:48 <quintopia> (except when they're much more energy efficient or something)
05:30:06 <ais523> VHDL generates single cycle multiplies by default
05:30:11 <ais523> you can end up using a lot of silicon if you don't pay attention
05:35:56 <madbr> just with the * operator&
05:39:48 <madbr> really intrigued about vhdl (and verilog)
05:42:10 <ais523> they're basically the same language with different syntax, at this point
05:42:16 <ais523> because they each stole each others' features
05:42:56 <ais523> the basic difference is that VHDL requires you to declare everything very precisely (and often multiple times), whereas Verilog ignores all that nonsense and often doesn't complain about typos as a result
05:43:35 <madbr> learning a bit of verilog atm (mostly because it's more C++ like)
05:43:55 <madbr> but I have no way to simulate code so it's all pie in the sky anyways
05:44:30 <ais523> huh? simulators are pretty easily obtainable
05:44:41 <ais523> GHDL is the one I use for VHDL; I hear Icarus is pretty good for Verilog
05:45:09 <ais523> and both of them are in the Ubuntu repositories as of right now (ghdl, iverilog)
05:45:51 <madbr> meh, uses cygwin :/
05:45:56 <madbr> better than nothing tho :D
05:47:14 <ais523> oh right, it actually hadn't crossed my mind that someone doing development might be using Windows
05:47:23 <ais523> it's not impossible, just unexpected
05:47:45 <madbr> I do DSP code for pro audio guys
05:47:54 <madbr> that's 99.99% win32 and mac osx
05:48:43 <ais523> at least one person I know finds Windows development so painful that they do it on Linux anyway ;-)
05:49:07 <madbr> as specifically msvc
05:49:30 <madbr> I know some guys like doing everything from the console and with strange text editors like vim
05:49:34 <madbr> but that's not for me
05:49:55 <zzo38> When working on Linux I do use vim.
05:50:02 <madbr> and I never got into the unix culture
05:50:22 <madbr> doesn't appeal to me
06:12:09 <madbr> for instance, to me the only appeal of the console is that it cuts down on development time for small tool applications (that don't need a GUI) and that it permits batch scripting
06:12:36 <madbr> for other things, there's no point to it
06:12:55 <zzo38> I happen to like it, especially in UNIX systems
06:13:45 <madbr> like, for me, it's always better to just use the OS's file management
06:14:19 <ais523> what if you want to make a mass change?
06:14:32 <madbr> that falls under batch scripting
06:14:37 <zzo38> Of course it helps to type fast
06:14:40 <ais523> something as simple as "move all the files with the extension .nh4ct into another directory" is awkward (but possible) to do via the GUI
06:14:51 <zzo38> But anyone who should use a computer should learn to type fast.
06:14:59 <ais523> the reason I find CLI more useful is that these operations come up all the time
06:15:14 <madbr> ais523 : I'd change file odering to sort files by extension, then select all of them, then copy/paste/move
06:15:15 <zzo38> There are even prorgams that combine GUI and CLI if you like that.
06:15:39 <ais523> madbr: right, that's what I meant by the "possible"
06:15:55 <madbr> I'd still rather do that than use the console
06:15:56 <ais523> to me, it seems a little insane that you have to mess with persistent settings like file ordering in order to do a simple task like that
06:16:18 <madbr> which means navigating though a whole bunch of folders by pure text
06:16:46 <madbr> then more or less blindly typing down the whole destination path in the copy command
06:17:13 <madbr> tab speeds up all the typing but I'd still rather use the file manager
06:17:13 <zzo38> For example you could even have a terminal emulator, that allow escape codes and keyboard commands you can bring up a menu of the files and then you can click on them to select which ones you want, while is still as command-line normally. Even such thing as with mouse highlight and then middle-button to paste it, is another thing to do
06:17:28 <ais523> madbr: normally I can type the name of a folder faster than I can find it in a GUI file manager
06:17:31 <madbr> ais523 : file ordering is not a persistent setting
06:17:39 <ais523> and it persists on Windows, I think
06:17:49 <madbr> well, yeah I guess it does persist
06:17:52 <zzo38> If there is enough room on the screen, the tab completion can be in another window too to display the stuff, you can then continue typing, use tab, and/or to click on the files you want.
06:17:54 <madbr> but it's meant to be dynamic
06:18:05 <madbr> basically you're just changing how they are displayed
06:18:30 <madbr> also I navigate by typing the first letter of folders etc
06:18:38 <madbr> which comes out about as fast as tab-complete
06:19:02 <madbr> the other thing is, I like seeing the files I'm manipulating
06:20:00 <zzo38> What would be your opinion of these of my ideas that you can combine with CLI and GUI that can be used together?
06:21:15 <madbr> I'd add CLI features to a GUI based file explorer, basically
06:22:08 <zzo38> I myself would prefer to do it the other way around; add escape codes into a terminal emulator to allow the shell to open windows for file manager at the same time
06:23:36 <madbr> like, I always want to see the full file list for the current folder
06:23:44 <madbr> I never want to not-see it
06:24:13 <zzo38> Well OK, although I tend to work differently, I suppose.
06:24:28 <madbr> and I want to keyboard navigate through that full file list
06:26:40 <madbr> like, the user navigates to a folder. why would you not want to display that folder's contents?
06:26:54 <zzo38> I suppose in case it doesn't fit on the screen?
06:27:10 <madbr> but then you can display a scroll bar?
06:27:24 <zzo38> Although I think in bash if you push tab it will display the file list anyways if you push tab twice.
06:27:43 <madbr> I don't want to have to push tab twice
06:27:53 <madbr> I want it to do it without having to ask for it
06:30:20 <madbr> if I navigate to a folder, I want to do something with one of the files (or subfolders inside it)
06:30:50 <madbr> if the files are displayed on screen, then this is easy
06:39:44 <madbr> it's like how the gimp doesn't have a rectangle tool
06:40:01 <madbr> you're supposed to make a rectangular selection and then fill it
06:40:11 <madbr> yes it does work and gets the job done
06:41:34 <ais523> Linux distros should start installing KolourPaint by default (basically an MS Paint clone), because it's what many people actually want when they think of an image editor
06:41:40 <madbr> but it's needlessly laborious
06:42:09 <madbr> well, the gimp is not that far from what I need (and already use)
06:42:16 <madbr> but it has some design mistakes
06:44:46 <zzo38> Depending on what things are wrong, they could be fixed. You could submit a bug report and/or patches and/or add-on files that would do the things you wanted.
06:45:32 <madbr> life is too short for that
06:45:45 <elliott_> life's too short to argue on IRC for hours
06:46:52 <madbr> well, there is a script to do shape drawing in the gimp
06:49:11 <madbr> also, by now the design mistakes are probably embedded deep into the gimp so I have no idea if they are fixable anyways
06:49:38 <ais523> AFAIK the problem that they have most issues fixing due to embedded design issues is to do with color representation
06:52:31 <madbr> I guess if you're doing printing that's a problem yes
06:53:18 <madbr> though if you're printing I'm kindof expecting they'd be using some other program
06:55:35 <madbr> and I guess if you're dealing with RAW photograpy gamut stuff, that does have some issues
06:58:31 <madbr> At least for GUI design they shouldn't have problems :D (just disable all color management)
07:00:13 <madbr> one way is to keep gamma as is
07:00:20 <madbr> and let the designer eyeball it
07:02:04 <madbr> your color mixes will be kinda strange but that's an acceptable compromise
07:02:53 <madbr> another way is to adjust the effects¸
07:03:40 <madbr> like apply gamma adjustment, resample picture, apply inverse gamma adjustment
07:04:05 <madbr> of course, then your resample is not a resample anymore, it's a gamma-adjusted-resample
07:04:15 <madbr> and it has to be applied across the board
07:04:51 <madbr> afaik sometimes photoshop works like this (depending on version and color settings and whatnote)
07:05:17 <madbr> but corel photopaint doesn't (you're working with straight RGB, it only color manages CYMK)
07:10:28 <madbr> but you don't want it to do something like apply a color curve when exporting
07:10:50 <madbr> then you tweak your look to look good and then it exports something else
07:10:52 <zzo38> Have you tried using ImageMagick?
07:15:29 <madbr> doesn't look very interesting to me tbh
07:17:01 <madbr> the value in a tool like photoshop or corel photopaint is doing a lot of manipulations and seeing what you're doing
07:17:46 <madbr> this means that to develop a program to do this, you need a massive development effort to make a very tight GUI¨
07:18:21 <madbr> I don't see the appeal of manipulating graphics from the command line (except for batch manipulations)
07:20:30 <ais523> it really depends on what you're doing
07:20:45 <ais523> one advantage of treating everything as batch is that it's easy to reproduce, although a GUI could do that too
07:20:55 <ais523> it'd be nice if a GUI made a CLI translation of everything you did in it and saved it in a logfile
07:20:58 <madbr> yes, this is why layers exist
07:21:11 <ais523> there are plenty of other good reasons why layers exist
07:22:09 <madbr> sound processing is already there and picture editing is moving towards there fast as well
07:22:28 <madbr> with more and more picture filters that can be done by layers
07:25:30 <madbr> like, if you do audio, you don't do a script that applies your whole stack of processing... what you do is that you add processing plugins one by one into your audio tracks... pretty much just as powerful but you don't have to edit any script
07:26:21 <zzo38> Well, there are different programs to do audio; some use scripts and stuff
07:26:36 <zzo38> I happen to believe Csound is pretty good
07:27:09 <madbr> has anybody done orchestral arrangement in csound?
07:27:17 <zzo38> (There are a lot of other people who use Csound too, although it isn't the most popular software at all)
07:27:39 <zzo38> madbr: I believe so. I didn't look at all the stuff done in Csound, so I don't know, but I know a lot of things are done in Csound.
07:28:28 <zzo38> I have done "Joy to the World" in Csound and using the PADsynth algorithm (I have written a Csound plugin to do PADsynth).
07:30:20 <madbr> that's not an orchestral arrangement
07:33:26 <madbr> like, I know csound is powerful on paper... but in practice you can't hear what you're doing
07:34:24 <zzo38> There is a lot of use of Csound. Also, some people like to write music on paper, too.
07:34:46 <Bicyclidine> missing information card games are my favorite card games, i guess this is how i know i'm a nerd
07:35:15 <zzo38> Bicyclidine: Can you be more specific what card games? I don't know a card game called "missing information".
07:36:05 <Bicyclidine> card games where the explicit goal is uncovering missing information
07:41:32 <madbr> zzo38 : what I say is that there are programs that are just as powerful as csound, but much easier to use
07:43:06 <zzo38> madbr: Maybe to you they are easier.
07:43:58 <madbr> I want to see what I do
07:45:12 <madbr> not some pie in the sky system that can in theory do everything in the world but you have to guess exactly the right settings and input them in a lengthy text form
07:45:50 <zzo38> They won't be very good until one section is finished anyways. (And anyways, a few composers do not even know how to hear what they are doing!!!)
07:46:07 <zzo38> madbr: Well, there are many programs, so you can use the ones you like. (Even more than one, if you like.)
07:46:54 <madbr> even for a whole section, you don't just roll it out blindly
07:47:02 <madbr> you put down some chords
07:47:11 <madbr> check if they fit in the mix
07:47:15 <madbr> if they sound good
07:47:21 <zzo38> (You can even use Csound with most other programs: Csound can be connected to other programs through MIDI, OSC, VST, LADSPA, plain audio formats, plain text, and a few more.)
07:47:54 <madbr> only one that makes sense is VST
07:48:14 <madbr> the other ones are mostly useless
07:49:00 <zzo38> Also in all of these cases, it goes both ways: MIDI can be input and output, VST can be as a host or as a plugin, etc.
07:49:04 <madbr> precisely because VST is designed around hearing what you're doing as you do it
07:49:32 <madbr> the point of VST is that you can use a program that has a very good piano roll
07:49:49 <madbr> your sequencer deals with that, your VST only does synthesis
07:49:50 <zzo38> Csound does actually support FLTK for a GUI as well, if you want a GUI; there are also several other GUIs for Csound, and you can also use joystick, Wii remotes, and other input devices with Csound.
07:50:12 <madbr> multiple GUIs is almost always a design mistake
07:50:31 <madbr> it's much better to have only one very good gui
07:50:42 <madbr> wii remotes are a toy
07:51:03 <madbr> same for joystick... I have a MIDI controller for this
07:51:26 <zzo38> Well, Csound can use MIDI too, so you can use that.
07:52:05 <madbr> if it takes MIDI, why does it have all the other crap?
07:52:50 <madbr> they are just distractions that make it less likely that the MIDI is correctly implemented
07:52:52 <zzo38> For one thing, you may be using it to modify other sounds rather than only to synthesize new ones.
07:53:18 <zzo38> Also some programs use other formats, too.
07:53:55 <madbr> the only reasonably well established protocol is MIDI
07:54:04 <madbr> and VST automation
07:54:42 <zzo38> The standard score format in Csound seems to highly resemble tracker formats. Some people use it, although other people prefer others; I didn't find any of the existing ones suitable so I wrote CsoundMML.
07:55:12 <zzo38> madbr: I think MIDI was not as common when Csound was first made, and VST didn't exist yet. (Also, if you are on Linux, you might want to use LADSPA.)
07:55:12 <madbr> Yes that's my point
07:55:28 <madbr> you implemented CsoundMML
07:55:38 <madbr> normally you should not do this
07:55:54 <zzo38> Well, I like to do it.
07:56:03 <madbr> its note input system should be good enough in first place
07:56:25 <madbr> yeah csound is early, which leads to this kind of problem
07:56:27 <zzo38> Doing it that way might restrict it too much though.
07:56:47 <madbr> if it restricts it to the good options only, that's GOOD
07:56:49 <zzo38> Which is why it helps to generate it using external methods too.
07:57:16 <zzo38> One thing is you might not always want to write 12-TET, for example.
07:57:34 <madbr> 99.99% of the time you DO want to write in 12-TET
07:57:35 <zzo38> Or there may be more controls than are possible in MIDI.
07:57:41 <madbr> unless you're arab
07:58:00 <zzo38> Some people like to experiment with different scales too though
07:58:14 <madbr> and also mostly useless
07:58:58 <madbr> for western music you're going to do a lot of layering
07:59:00 <zzo38> Well, if you do not like Csound, then you do not have to use it.
07:59:16 <madbr> that blows up pretty much any other intonation system than 12-TET
07:59:35 <madbr> except for a few close relatives to 12-TET like well-temperament
08:00:31 <madbr> maybe meantone and pythagorean temperament (and even then good look making it sound better than 12-TET)
08:01:10 <zzo38> If used correctly they do sound better. (I do not know how to use them correctly, though.)
08:01:44 <zzo38> At least with complex waveforms; I have tried this with some experimenting.
08:02:09 <madbr> your potential gain is marginal
08:02:22 <zzo38> A pure sine wave is too pure with just intonation
08:02:27 <madbr> yes you can have more static 3rds
08:02:40 <madbr> but... that's a lot of work for not much gain
08:03:17 <madbr> basically adjust every major 3rd in your song down if used in harmony, and up if it's used melodically
08:05:29 <madbr> in fact they did test this
08:05:43 <madbr> asked a bunch of musicians to tune major 3rds by ear
08:05:59 <madbr> the average major 3rd was 395 cents
08:06:17 <zzo38> Those things are interesting to know.
08:07:22 <madbr> in other words a halfway compromise between the 5/4 major third, and the 81/64 major third (two stacked tones)
08:07:44 <madbr> the difference with our 400 cents major third is very slim
08:08:54 <madbr> like, you could design a well temperament so that the major 3rd from C to E is 395 cents
08:09:03 <madbr> in theory it would be an improvement
08:09:12 <madbr> in practice nobody would notice
08:10:06 <zzo38> If I am not doing chords, I can even experiment with alternative temperament just by using QBASIC.
08:10:14 <madbr> the tuning error on a typical note from a guy playing a violin or wind instrument in an orchestra can easily reach 5 or 10 cents
08:10:30 <madbr> that's already way more
08:10:56 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it is; I haven't paid a lot of attention
08:11:30 <madbr> life is too short to concentrate on features that don't matter
08:11:42 <madbr> alternative temperaments is one of these features
08:13:04 <madbr> that's the problem with stuff like csound
08:13:26 <madbr> they can't put on their pants and decide what matters, they gotta try to do everything
08:14:08 <zzo38> madbr: It doesn't actually have that feature built-in; it is a consequence of the implementation that it allows that by defining custom tables and stuff.
08:14:40 <zzo38> I have a Kawai electric piano. It allow to set seven different temperaments; by default it is equal temperament with a tuning curve. I find that when a non-piano sound is selected, it seem to work better if tuning curve is turned off, but is better turned on for piano sound. I read about piano tuning in Wikipedia so I can guess how this is working and why it is the case.
08:16:48 <zzo38> At least I like Csound for music, ImageMagick for pictures, METAFONT for drawing, and Plain TeX for typesetting. You don't have to use it, if you do not like it!
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08:37:47 <zzo38> Could the "dead reckoning" rule in chess ever make some extremely stupid move to be very good in one situation where you are in severe time trouble?
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08:55:23 <int-e> I guess, based on this problem: http://anselan.com/tutorial.html ... w with a rook on a1 could sacrifice it on a8 instead of making a waiting move and checkmate afterwards. but figuring that out will probably take longer than actually mating.
08:55:39 <int-e> maybe there's a less stupid way
08:57:58 <int-e> More realisitically take a more complicated won endgame, the bishop+knight perhaps
08:58:52 <int-e> (it also depends on what you mean by "extremely stupid")
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09:09:35 <zzo38> I don't know; "extremely stupid" was based on a comment by brother made when I told him about the "dead reckoning rule" and when he said it is useless, I thought about if it might be useful in severe time trouble.
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09:10:09 <zzo38> Also, I was thinking that you would figure it out ahead of time, therefore it doesn't matter if figuring it out takes longer, if you have already figured it out.
09:11:03 <int-e> I think the "complicated endgame" usecase is a good one, though common sense. It means, however, that you have to somehow force your opponent to capture a piece rather than ambling around randomly until your time runs out.
09:12:13 <int-e> (though perhaps the opponent will capture out of habit...)
09:12:37 <int-e> "Look here, that capture was stupid. I was losing on time, but now it's a draw."
09:12:55 <zzo38> Then maybe it also depend how much time trouble your opponent is having too.
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09:25:16 <int-e> @tell oerjan re: "how did I miss that" - when I first did that problem I wasn't aware that the scan* functions are in the Prelude. :browse Prelude turned out to be helpful.
09:26:21 <int-e> @tell oerjan (which is rather strange: I like those functions a lot)
09:26:34 <J_Arcane> heh, speaking of lambdas, my wife made me a thing: https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/520864743817744384
09:27:11 <mroman_> ;; Calculate cummulative sum
09:27:16 <mroman_> > cum-sum PSHSR; Save return address
09:27:17 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:57: parse error on input ‘;’
09:27:22 <lambdabot> ‘F.sum’ (imported from Data.Foldable)Not in scope: ‘rep’
09:27:23 <mroman_> LDWR3R0; Load element from Input
09:27:28 <mroman_> STWR1R4; Store it to Output
09:27:38 <mroman_> JNZ@cum-sum-rep; Not Zero? Jump Back
09:27:46 <mroman_> wtf does putty auto paste on right click
09:27:48 <mroman_> I wanted right-click copy link
09:28:12 <mroman_> this is a serious privacy issue
09:28:12 <int-e> btw, why won't twitter display images without javascript...
09:28:44 <zzo38> mroman_: You can change those setting in PuTTY
09:28:52 <mroman_> I have noscript but can still see it
09:29:13 <int-e> haha, sorry. I have a somewhat aggressive adblock rule...
09:29:42 <Jafet> Why are you clicking in a tty
09:29:56 <int-e> Jafet: you aren't?
09:30:07 <mroman_> because it's a graphical window
09:30:23 <int-e> Jafet: how do you ever copy text from or to a terminal?
09:30:50 <Jafet> grep usually works.
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09:44:30 <mroman_> imm = (shiftL b3 16) .|. (shiftL b2 8) .|. b1
09:45:31 <int-e> I don't think it is, by itself
09:46:25 <mroman_> but imm is supposed to be Word32
09:46:41 <mroman_> which makes Haskell infer that b3,b2,b1 must be Word32 as well
09:46:52 <mroman_> (because .|. is a -> a -> a)
09:47:00 <mroman_> I need to promote b3,b2,b1 to Word32 first
09:47:52 <mroman_> > (fromIntegral (8 :: Word8)) :: Int
09:47:58 <mroman_> > (fromIntegral (8 :: Word8)) :: Word32
09:50:15 <mroman_> (4,DecodedInstruction {opCode = *** Exception: <<loop>>
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09:50:33 <Slereah_> Finally no more work 'til march
09:51:18 <mroman_> There's no loop in my program
09:51:44 <Slereah_> Hopefully I can finish some eso project
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09:54:55 <int-e> mroman_: watch out for reused identifiers
09:55:33 <lambdabot> int-e said 30m 16s ago: re: "how did I miss that" - when I first did that problem I wasn't aware that the scan* functions are in the Prelude. :browse Prelude turned out to be helpful.
09:55:33 <lambdabot> int-e said 29m 12s ago: (which is rather strange: I like those functions a lot)
09:55:58 <oerjan> int-e: it wasn't the scanl that i missed; i used that in my initial version too
09:57:56 <int-e> oerjan: I was just sharing my own "how did I miss that" moment.
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10:03:46 <mroman_> (2,DecodedInstruction {opCode = 38, dst = 7, src = RegisterOperand 9})
10:07:04 <mroman_> elliott_: You mean HashMap.Lazy from unorderdered-containers?
10:07:20 <mroman_> or the old hashmap package?
10:17:04 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/jQhCm4lj <- I'll do it like that for now
10:20:35 <int-e> oerjan: oh speaking of golf, what do you have against alphanumeric characters? (see "Count the Overlap")
10:21:32 <int-e> (more seriously we must have wildly different programs)
10:21:43 <mroman_> @hoogle FilePath -> [Word8]
10:21:46 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Trans.Error listMsg :: ErrorList a => String -> [a]
10:21:46 <lambdabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
10:22:15 <oerjan> darn you beat me there too? :(
10:22:18 <mroman_> ByteString -> [Word8] should be possible though
10:22:24 <mroman_> There's FileIO with ByteString
10:22:48 <int-e> oerjan: sorry, I was catching up from 267 characters and momentum carried me over the target
10:24:07 <int-e> oerjan: I couldn't have done it without you.
10:25:58 <oerjan> i suppose we must be using different algorithms. and i thought i was so clever.
10:26:33 <oerjan> i _did_ have another idea which i didn't pursue
10:26:49 <oerjan> or maybe you've managed to get parsing actually short
10:27:22 <int-e> well, not really short. but at least I managed to make some use of the interspersed labels.
10:28:51 <oerjan> well that would totally mess up the way i'm doing it
10:30:59 <oerjan> as i'm basically calling map read.words before doing anything else
10:32:12 <int-e> I would attribute 50% of the program to parsing.
10:32:50 <oerjan> something like that yeah
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11:22:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polyglot]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40598&oldid=40597 * Oerjan * (+54) unsigned
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11:30:49 <oerjan> ok that triangular number thing is so trivial there's no point even adding to the (probably identical) haskell solution heap
11:32:59 <oerjan> actually, just for fun i'll make one that has a different statistics
11:35:42 <int-e> so that makes 4 different solutions, hmm.
11:36:21 <oerjan> prefix vs. infix, scanl1 vs. scanl
11:51:54 <callforjudgement> hmm, so apparently, bridge bidding conventions have official classifications; the stupider the convention, the higher-level you have to be before it isn't banned
11:52:24 <callforjudgement> the very stupidest conventions, like "pass" meaning that you have a strong hand, are called Highly Unusual Methods
11:53:52 <callforjudgement> such conventions are apparently only allowed at the Bermuda Bowl and Venice Cup, and using them causes you to forfeit choice of seats
11:54:32 <callforjudgement> also you have to tell the opponent what the conventions are, but that seems to be a general rule
11:54:46 <callforjudgement> (now I wonder how often people try to use conventions that stupid in high-level tournaments)
11:55:10 <callforjudgement> contract bridge reminds me of my Rubicon puzzles, they're both about trying to communicate a range of information under awkward limiting circumstances
11:57:19 <oerjan> winghci is irritatingly flaky whenever you try to run a program which takes input :(
11:58:20 <oerjan> (there seems to be no way to give an EOF, you have to interrupt to get out of it, and sometimes it doesn't get back into a usable state afterwards.)
11:59:12 <callforjudgement> newline-controlZ-newline is the standard Windows way to EOF; I'm assuming that that doesn't work?
11:59:17 <J_Arcane> I was having some performance issues this morning and discovered that for some reason I still had a GHC process running, eating a full CPU core doing absolutely nothing. Still don't know what happened.
11:59:32 <oerjan> it doesn't. it works in ghci on console, but not in winghci.
12:04:33 <oerjan> even in the ghci console, you cannot use getContents twice, it doesn't reset stdin.
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14:25:32 <pikhq> callforjudgement: How deliciously CP/M.
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14:36:57 <coppro> callforjudgement: the regulation of bridge conventions is a large part of what leads me to conclude that the tournament organization and structure is completely broken
14:40:31 <callforjudgement> coppro: right, the problem is that in essence, the bidding phase of Bridge is a game about coming to an agreement about hidden data given highly limited bandwidth
14:40:51 <callforjudgement> and to facilitate that, you can benefit from what your opponents are saying, which means that you have to recognise what it is
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14:57:34 <mroman_> fizzie: You didn't notice that the cum-sum code disrespects length 0 ;)
14:57:44 <mroman_> I've added a CPY R2 R2; JIZ @cum-sum-end
14:58:42 <mroman_> (which is the same as CMP R2 0; JEQ @cum-sum-end)
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15:16:09 <int-e> oh another int-nick on #haskell, this will be fun...
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16:38:17 <fizzie> No, but I shaved that Z80 code from 48 to 40 bytes.
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16:47:49 <Sgeo> Are there Evillious Chronicles fans here? I don't know where to get started. I seem to be watching in a wierd order
17:05:40 <elliott_> mroman_: I mean HashMap.Strict actually
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18:45:21 <mroman_> !rlisp (if== $0 0 (if> 0 $0 (add $0 $0) ($0)) (r 10))
18:45:48 <Bike> ? you're calling $0?
18:46:47 <mroman_> !rlisp (if== $0 0 (r 1 10) (if== $1 0 0 (add $1 (r 1 $1))))
18:46:53 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' that!
18:47:01 <mroman_> !rlisp (if== $0 0 (r 1 10) (if== $1 0 0 (add $1 (r 1 (sub $1 1)))))
18:47:08 <mroman_> !rlisp (if== $0 0 (r 1 100) (if== $1 0 0 (add $1 (r 1 (sub $1 1)))))
18:47:17 <mroman_> there should be rlisp golfing!
18:47:49 <Bike> inferior to maclisp
18:49:50 <nortti> Sgeo: I'd start from original sin story (starting from "Project 'Ma'"), then go through the seven deadly sins (with story of the evil in the middle). after that progress to stuff like chrono story
18:51:13 <mroman_> nortti: It's Recursive-LISP
18:51:18 <mroman_> because you only have recursion
18:51:22 <mroman_> where r is the recursion operator
18:52:14 <Taneb> ...just heard people cheering after the Visual/Musical Sorting Algorithms vid
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19:02:02 <mroman_> !rlisp (LEN (_+ (: 9 #) (: 8 #)))
19:02:17 <mroman_> *Main> run "(LEN (_+ (: 9 #) (: 8 #)))"
19:04:57 <mroman_> (if== $0 0 (r 1 1 10) (if== $1 $2 # (: $1 (r 1 (add $1 1) $2))))
19:05:11 <mroman_> ^- that would be a range function (1..10)
19:07:35 <b_jonas> concat is like fold apparen
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19:17:58 <Sgeo> nortti: Ah. Yeah, I kind of went really out of order. Watched all the Seven Deadly Sins, saw the Clockwork Lullaby series (incl. Chrono Story), have yet to see Original Sin or the full Story of Evil
19:18:37 <Sgeo> Also, I'm glad I'm not the only fan
19:20:54 <mroman_> ordered text permutations is boring
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19:22:37 <mroman_> actually sa == ^^L[ == JL[
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19:29:50 <fizzie> I do use JL[, in fact.
19:30:43 <fizzie> Or apparently I don't except in some older stuff.
19:30:54 <fizzie> But I have used JL[ because I wasn't aware of sa.
19:32:54 <fizzie> Oh, I guess I did use JL[ in the ordered text "permutations" one, it was so short I didn't even have it saved in a file.
19:38:28 <fizzie> I wrote a Befunge-98 A006520 and it ended up having exactly the same length as my Forth one.
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20:56:55 <pikhq> Oh, awesomesauce. Someone actually has made a little expansion port jumper for the NES so you can get Famicom audio out of it.
20:58:05 <pikhq> Oh, neater. Said port also gives you the Famicom expansion pins.
20:58:20 <pikhq> For Family Basic or Famicom zapper use.
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21:12:10 <Taneb> Trivia: I still have a fear of the words "kvm: disabled by BIOS"
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21:23:06 <Taneb> (somewhere in the logs for a few years ago there is the reason why)
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22:23:56 <Taneb> Question: is SKI calculus + fix enough for something with a System F-like type system to be TC?
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22:26:58 <Bike> i don't think i understand what a typed combinator system is...
22:27:14 <Taneb> :t let k a b = a in k
22:27:27 <Taneb> :t let s a b c = a c (b c) in s
22:27:28 <lambdabot> (t2 -> t1 -> t) -> (t2 -> t1) -> t2 -> t
22:29:14 <Bike> oh i see i guess sorta
22:32:40 <Sgeo> nortti: starting to think a lot of these subs on YouTube are low quality
22:34:54 <oerjan> Taneb: assuming abstraction elimination of simply typed lambda terms is type-preserving, i'd think so.
22:35:24 <oerjan> because i remember this is true if you replace SKI calculus with LC
22:36:00 <Taneb> My proof of lens's Turing completeness depends on it, and I'm finally writing that out
22:39:16 <oerjan> wtf has my fridge started creaking occasionally :(
22:39:55 <oerjan> actually creaking seems to be the wrong word
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00:21:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [[GHC.Types.Char]])
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00:22:04 <oerjan> hmph lambdabot cuts off the error message even in privmsg
00:22:12 <HackEgo> MBH: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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00:26:17 <oerjan> anyone with a linux ghci who can test what error messages 1+["\n"] gives?
00:26:52 <dianne> <interactive>:2:2: No instance for (Num [[Char]]) arising from a use of ‘+’ In the expression: 1 + [""] In an equation for ‘it’: it = 1 + [""]
00:27:08 <oerjan> ic. so this bug is not just windows.
00:27:20 <oerjan> note how there is no \n in the error message.
00:29:05 <dianne> the error message for 1+["\n "] is also a bit strange, but in a different way
00:29:39 <Taneb> I can still confirm
00:29:52 <oerjan> also the []s aren't actually needed for this
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00:30:45 <MBH> If only BF had a square function like Deadfish...
00:34:23 <Taneb> MBH, down that path brainfuck derivatives lie, and I fear Phantom__Hoover will have to update his blog
00:40:36 <oerjan> hm i suppose the "\n " case is not _technically_ in error
00:40:57 <oerjan> it just uses a string gap
00:49:42 <oerjan> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9681#ticket
00:50:31 <MBH> FiM++ sounds so cool
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00:56:47 <oerjan> i suppose the "\n " case might be about GHC trying to show multiline strings on multiple lines, so considered a feature.
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01:34:37 <Taneb> Help, apparently I translated the first strip of IWC into Latin
01:34:42 <Taneb> I... don't remember doing this
01:39:07 <Taneb> But... looking at the translation
01:39:12 <Taneb> I remember looking up one of the words
01:40:53 <Taneb> As you said, irregularissime
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02:44:15 <Sgeo> What does "reborn as vocaloid" mean? This video's annotations seem intent on telling me this character is not reborn as vocaloid.
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03:26:43 <Sgeo> Are vocaloids actually considered a character in and of themselves (like Gumi actually being a character's name) in some settings?
03:27:01 <Sgeo> That doesn't seem to happen in this setting, but that's the only meaning I can ascribe to the concept
03:27:42 <elliott_> you haven't seen the vocaloid fandom?
03:28:05 <elliott_> maybe I don't understand the question since I have no idea what the cnotext is though :p
03:29:40 <Sgeo> The Evillious Chronicles is my first interaction with the Vocaloid fandom.
03:30:02 <Sgeo> The context is the annotation towards the end of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpl1uMEWM_g
03:36:01 <elliott_> anyway, they're treated as characters, yes; I don't know whether that answers your original question but it answers your second one
03:40:25 <Taneb> I once ended up at a Hatsune Miku live show
03:40:30 <Sgeo> elliott_: thank you
03:40:50 <Taneb> She was having troubles with Windows Media Player
03:40:55 <Sgeo> elliott_: afaik, the setting I'm interested in does not treat them as characters in and of themselves. But I guess people could incorrectly assume that they are
03:42:02 <elliott_> I presume the exact meaning would be more obvious if you saw the PV the note mentions.
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04:13:05 <dianne> i'll hand it to them, they sure left quickly
04:13:38 <Taneb> They lasted 16 whole seconds
04:14:58 <elliott_> by the time you adopt a name like Left_Hand_6969 you're experienced enough to get the job done quickly
04:17:32 <dianne> they just came and left
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08:39:20 <Sgeo> I'm watching what I think is the wrong PV. It's subbed... really really badly
08:39:54 <Sgeo> lu li la got turned into lapis lazuli. Also: "Boy's crimes are getting old" "You're far from me forever" "It left from this room"
08:40:11 <Sgeo> But some of it is actually clearer than the one I've seen
08:42:54 <Sgeo> "It's not that you're sins aren't tolerated"... the other translation I've seen is more "You're sins will never be forgiven, but..."
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09:02:58 <nortti> Sgeo: I personally would check against http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/The_Evillious_Chronicles_Wiki 's translation
09:11:13 <nortti> Sgeo: the vocaloids are not considered chars and the being reborn as vocaloid bit is a fan-theory contradicted by mothy's actual work. (I suggest you check out 'Irregular' and 'Waiter' on the wiki)
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09:26:55 <Sgeo> nortti: I meant the PV noted as incorrect by a video that has decent-seeming translations (except 'Clockwork' instead of spring?). And yeah, I meant vocaloids as characters in most Vocaloid-based works.
09:27:24 <Sgeo> I should probably check the wiki more often though
09:28:08 <Sgeo> I should probably watch Story of Evil. re_birthday says Irregular severely sinned (I guess by helping his evil sister?), so I don't quite get how it's supposed to be a Jesus parallel
09:29:00 * int-e wonders about the meaning of "PV"
09:29:50 <Sgeo> Promo Video, equivalent to Music Video
09:30:32 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PV#Other
09:31:41 <int-e> Ah, I tried that page but didn't get that far. Thanks.
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09:43:41 <impomatic_> I've entered Al Zimmermann's programming contest http://azspcs.net/Contest/DelacorteNumbers
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09:49:19 <Sgeo> nortti: In Judgement of Corruption, when Gallerian is facing the Master of the Hellish Yard, is that scene Gallerian's interpretation of the events of Muzzle of Nemesis, or did Gallerian face a similar choice twice?
09:50:18 <nortti> I interpreted it as being his interpretation of muzzle of nemesis's events
09:50:46 <Sgeo> That's what I initially thought.
09:51:43 <Sgeo> Reading the wiki made me a bit less confident though
09:51:46 <Sgeo> I should sleep
10:07:04 <fizzie> I don't understand the DOS console input at all. I do "dosemu -quiet -dump test.com < file.txt" where file.txt contains "12345\n67890\n", and test.com is just a cat loop using int 21h/AH=08h and int 21h/AH=02h, but what comes out is "12345\n\x1e\n" after which stdin reports that it has no more characters available, and 21/AH=08h starts to block.
10:10:02 <fizzie> I guess it needs to have \r's instead of \n's in the input file. That's confuzzling.
10:10:32 <fizzie> And also the fact that 21h/AH=08h blocks indefinitely if dosemu's stdin hits eof.
10:16:20 <fizzie> I'd need it to work for \n, though. And it's even more confusing for other inputs. E.g. "whatever\nsomethingelse\n" results in "whatever\n\x05\x14\x08" and "aa\nbbbbbb\n" returns "aa\n\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\n".
10:16:44 <fizzie> It's almost as if hitting a '\n' makes the rest of the input be interpreted as if the ctrl key was stuck on.
10:57:53 <int-e> fizzie: that's not expected behavior
11:00:36 <int-e> hmm "Could not open current VT." is also unexpected.
11:00:42 <J_Arcane> Doesn't DOS specify \r\n for newline?
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11:03:12 <int-e> oh it wants a linux VT ... not an xterm.
11:04:46 <int-e> fizzie: and then I can reproduce the behavior. it's dosemu's fault, things look better inside its own X11 terminal window.
11:06:06 <int-e> and now it does something inside xterm as well, huh ...
11:06:53 <int-e> J_Arcane: well, the expected output is that 12345 is overwritten by 67890
11:07:35 <J_Arcane> Ahh, so in this case a proper newline isn't necessarily what is wanted?
11:07:46 <int-e> but it's having trouble with input redirection.
11:12:00 <fizzie> int-e: Maybe it's not a coincidence no-one ever seems to have submitted a DOS com file to any program involving multi-line input (except by embedding the output in the program).
11:12:42 <fizzie> Incidentally, I meant "dosemu -quiet -dumb" and not -dump, that's presumably not a real flag.
11:13:02 <int-e> fizzie: I recommend dosbox
11:13:15 <fizzie> It's not up to me, unfortunately; this was re anagolf.
11:13:30 <fizzie> I don't know if you can handily feed input to dosbox either.
11:13:36 <oerjan> apropos anagolf, *evil cackle*
11:14:20 <int-e> right that won't help when the server is using dosemu
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11:20:30 <int-e> oerjan: I saw the asteriks and obeliks score
11:22:02 <int-e> fizzie, J_Arcane: it works better with ^M instead of ^J for newlines in the input.
11:23:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: I have a DOS in bochs connectible to irc. I can bring it up if you want. It has the borland C compiler.
11:24:57 <b_jonas> there, started it up, it's in the #esoteric-blah channel, you can try it with `help
11:25:35 <b_jonas> I don't know about dosbox, I never tried to hook that up to anything
11:26:09 <b_jonas> but anyway, my bot proves that you can feed at least textual input to that dos in bochs,
11:26:24 <b_jonas> and reset its hard disk state quickly
11:26:43 <b_jonas> so in theory it could be used as a golf language
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12:25:16 <int-e> fizzie: "It's almost as if hitting a '\n' makes the rest of the input be interpreted as if the ctrl key was stuck on." -- that's exactly what happens; the input is translated to scancodes; \n is interpreted as Ctrl-J. But the control key is never released.
12:27:06 <int-e> fizzie: interesting things happen around here: http://sourceforge.net/p/dosemu/code/ci/master/tree/src/plugin/term/keyb_slang.c#l836
12:29:07 <b_jonas> int-e: that won't happen in my setup with the bot, because input goes in the serial terminal instead of a keyboard
12:29:31 <b_jonas> so of course you still need to press control-M for newlines, control-J doesn't have bad side effects
12:30:46 <b_jonas> (there's some drawbacks of course, as in some console-oriented programs won't talk through the serial terminmal)
12:44:49 <int-e> fizzie: the easiest workaround would be for anagolf to convert \n to \r (\r is not mapped to Ctrl-M, it's mapped to the return key without modifiers, so that works)
12:45:29 <b_jonas> just use the serial terminal instead of keyboard
12:46:48 <b_jonas> hmm, teebee did http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world in 59 bytes, 10 less than me
12:51:15 <b_jonas> besides that it's not very useful for golf, why does http://golf.shinh.org/ not have GAP? does it start up too slowly?
13:05:43 <oerjan> you cannot use acronyms that are identical to common words hth
13:09:55 * oerjan tentatively concludes the most likely referent to be http://www.gap-system.org/
13:12:37 <int-e> oerjan: stop making up gnu rules
13:13:30 <oerjan> gnu isn't a common word hth
13:15:39 <b_jonas> yes, http://www.gap-system.org/
13:15:40 <int-e> > time gap4r5 < /dev/null ... real 0m7.094s with a hot FS cache
13:15:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input ‘/’
13:15:52 <int-e> I should know better
13:16:23 <b_jonas> 7 seconds? it starts in like two seconds for me
13:16:53 * Melvar is trying something unintended with idris’ type providers.
13:17:07 <int-e> oh well, this computer is 4 years old.
13:18:06 <b_jonas> it might depend on how many libraries it loads
13:18:08 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/KKac
13:18:17 <oerjan> are you carrying them upward in the snow
13:20:02 <int-e> (what did sprunge do to those poor unicode characters?)
13:20:04 <b_jonas> I'm running an old version of GAP though
13:27:23 <oerjan> > (undefined :: (Int,Int)) & each .~ "hi"
13:28:54 <oerjan> int-e: i thought sprunge gave the file raw by default, sure it wasn't your upload that converted things
13:29:38 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, I used the form. I guess the browser may have mangled it.
13:30:23 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/ has a link
13:30:46 <int-e> so I've never bothered with installing the tool
13:30:51 <oerjan> http://sprunge.us/ZRHA looks fine when piped from the command line
13:31:37 <int-e> and by "installing" I mean wrapping the curl command line into a script so I don't have to remember the details.
13:32:01 <oerjan> int-e: you don't need much of a tool, i just have a shell script with curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us in it
13:34:02 <int-e> you're right, the curl command works. http://sprunge.us/NBeV
13:34:34 <int-e> (but why do I have to hit ^D twice to make it submit?)
13:36:03 <oerjan> prepending cat | fixes that.
13:36:06 <int-e> cat | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us # non-useless use of cat
13:36:31 <b_jonas> int-e: it's unix terminal canonical mode. control-D flushes, making the read return. if you've already typed characters in the line, that makes the read return those cahracters. if you just hit newline or control-d, there's no characters, so it makes read return 0, which programs interpret as an EOF.
13:36:45 <b_jonas> int-e: so you need to hit control-D twice to signal an EOF.
13:36:59 <int-e> b_jonas: this was at the beginning of the line
13:39:48 <int-e> Thanks anyway, I didn't know that.
13:58:03 <fizzie> Yeah, I've wondered about the curl-sprunge-^D^D-even-at-beginning-of-line thing too.
13:58:21 <fizzie> I've just assumed it's some sort of curl peculiarity.
13:58:57 <b_jonas> maybe curl reads twice or something?
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14:01:08 <oerjan> if you keep typing after the first ^D the rest gets into the upload
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14:02:32 <fizzie> The curlman always reads twice.
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15:45:57 * oerjan found the command to make vim display character count for current visual selection. (g^G) now i can golf with multiple lines!
15:47:03 <oerjan> (also needed to set fileformat=unix to not have it count newlines double)
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17:16:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Woodpecker * New user account
17:25:36 <fizzie> The single-question CAPTCHA seems to have be working okay.
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18:39:51 <fizzie> Yay, improved on both Befunge and Befunge-98 pocket solutions. (Too bad it still has something like 5 days to go, so someone will surely go and one-up.)
18:40:27 <coppro> do we have a funge-98 funge-98 interpreter yet?
18:41:50 <fizzie> I forget. Possibly not? There's definitely a Befunge-93 Befunge-93, though it limits the playfield still further.
18:42:56 <fizzie> I have this vague impression that there was also a fingerprintless "non-cheating" Funge-98 Funge-98, but I could be wrong.
18:44:43 <fizzie> Not just loading the corresponding fingerprints to the "host" Funge-98 and (for A..Z) just executing those instructions and hoping for nothing unexpected, which would probably break for many instructions.
18:45:39 <coppro> it should be a proper implementation
18:46:33 <coppro> it seems to me that the funnest way to implement it would be a supercell
18:46:38 <coppro> it would probably be a giant supercell though
18:48:06 <fizzie> I assume it would make sense (funcespace-storage-wise) to implement N-funge in (N+1)-funge.
18:49:45 <coppro> yeah that would work too
18:49:57 <coppro> but it would be more challenging to implement directly
18:51:19 <fizzie> I clearly remember sketching a translation from 2D-language A to 2D-language B based on some sort of cell-grid thing, but no idea about the identities of A and B or whether that went anywhere. A != B, though.
19:03:48 <Vorpal> Hm, are there any compilers to befunge-98?
19:03:54 <Vorpal> That could be a neat project
19:04:40 <Vorpal> Possibly a llvm code gen backend, then you could compile cfunge into befunge
19:07:35 <Vorpal> Well it would probably turn out awful, but still pretty neat
19:07:56 <fizzie> There's the http://www.mikescher.de/programs/view/BefunGen thing.
19:08:04 <fizzie> It generates "big Befunge-93", basically.
19:08:28 <Vorpal> From what? My mouse just died a couple of seconds ago, so I can't click the link
19:08:34 <Vorpal> brb, debugging the issue
19:09:01 <fizzie> From a custom language it calls "TextFunge", which (AIUI) is somewhat pedestrian.
19:09:59 <fizzie> Oh, and how did I forget Sponge, the Scheme-to-Befunge-98 compiler.
19:10:10 <fizzie> I think I even tried it out once.
19:10:39 <fizzie> Neither of those is terribly advanced, or make too much of an effort to generate "natural" Befunge-98 output, I think.
19:11:02 <Vorpal> Well that would be tricky
19:11:21 <Vorpal> It is not a well researched class of target languages as it were
19:11:41 <fizzie> Sponge you can find at http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html though the page tried to pop up some sort of an ad.
19:12:30 <fizzie> (Probably won't without scripts, I'm sure it's part of that "free web hosting area" code at the end.)
19:12:46 <b_jonas> I posted you a golf problem
19:14:02 <fizzie> Are you going to use the golfed solutions for some business purpose?
19:14:05 <b_jonas> what the heck got into me when I wrote this old C program? it uses "template" as an identifier
19:14:15 <Vorpal> I wonder if it is still possible to buy IDE drives?
19:14:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: no. I already have a good non-golfed solution in C, which I posted
19:14:29 <Vorpal> I have an old computer that might need a new drive. 2.5"
19:14:32 <b_jonas> Vorpal: CD reader or hard disk?
19:14:43 <fizzie> I know some people use 'class' as an identifier specifically in order to make their C code not compilable as C++.
19:14:47 <fizzie> For philosophical reasons.
19:14:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, "new" also works
19:15:09 <b_jonas> I didn't know people did that deliberately
19:15:11 <fizzie> Yes, maybe "new" is easier to shoehorn in.
19:15:21 <Vorpal> b_jonas, So don't compile it as C++?
19:15:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I used it unintentionally in cfunge IIRC
19:16:02 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I want to submit it as a C++ solution for the golf
19:16:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, As in, I didn't think about it until some tool or other decided to highlight that file as C++ due to the existance of "new" in the code
19:16:06 <b_jonas> done, I renamed the variable
19:16:27 <Vorpal> b_jonas, you should use variable names like t or such anyway to golf it
19:16:37 <b_jonas> Vorpal: sure, but this one isn't golfed
19:16:49 <b_jonas> it's my original code back when I wrote this task for non-golf purposes
19:17:05 <b_jonas> I did submit a golfed perl code too
19:17:17 <Jafet> To be more devious, make the code work differently even if renamed and compiled as C++
19:17:21 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:17:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:17:28 <blsqbot> {2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
19:17:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh. The (completely unused) Forth code in the fungot github repo gets flagged as F#, probably due to the .fs extension.
19:17:33 <fungot> fizzie: hence, all m are x; all m are x'; no m are x; &there4 some x are y, and some, that have not green eyes.
19:17:38 <b_jonas> 62 characters, it's probably possible to get it shorter
19:17:47 <Vorpal> Jafet, hm, what sort of different behaviour would work for detecting that (except #ifdef _CPP or similar)
19:18:00 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I know some possiblities
19:18:01 <fizzie> fungot: Did you know that you're 58.2% Perl, 28.2% F# and 13.6% Python?
19:18:01 <fungot> fizzie: " no," said he. i said " my name's not tibbs."
19:18:04 <blsqbot> {2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97}
19:18:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, forth for what?
19:18:34 <Jafet> And a few billion other things
19:18:35 <b_jonas> Vorpal: you can use sizeof('a') ; or some identifier scope tricks about struct definitions
19:18:47 <fizzie> We had this discussion already, kind of.
19:18:52 <fizzie> Maybe I should look for the logs.
19:18:54 <b_jonas> let me find that latter code (I didn't write it)
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19:19:09 <fizzie> I posted one way that was based on identifier mangling, and hilariously unportable.
19:19:32 <b_jonas> you can also use some words as keywords in C++ and identifiers in C
19:19:48 <blsqbot> {{3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98} {1 2 4
19:19:58 <mroman_> !blsq 100?!fCNB{q?iq?d}M-\[NB
19:19:59 <blsqbot> {3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98 1 2 10 1
19:20:06 <Jafet> int vector, T, a; vector <T <1>> a;
19:20:08 <mroman_> !blsq 100?!fCNB{q?iq?d}M-\[><NB
19:20:08 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 28 30 32 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 52 54 58 60 6
19:20:12 <Vorpal> Of course there is a million ways to tell different C++ implementations apart. Mostly related to templates
19:20:38 <b_jonas> Jafet: how do you make that work? you need to include a header for vector, and you can't include that in C
19:21:39 <Vorpal> that* wouldn't compile surely in C++
19:21:59 <mroman_> Can't you just use parsers to detect languages?
19:21:59 <fizzie> ais523 had a quirky one for modern C++: int main(void) { auto i = 4.5L; printf("%d\n",(int)sizeof i); return 0; } -- C++ does type inference, while C defaults to int.
19:22:07 <Vorpal> After all >> still means bit shift in C++
19:22:17 <Vorpal> And you didn't #include <vector>
19:22:34 <mroman_> Although... there are C++ programs you can parse as C
19:22:57 <b_jonas> Vorpal: in C++11 the >> is a valid way to end a template
19:23:02 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well okay, true
19:23:09 <b_jonas> (but < :: still needs a space)
19:23:27 <Vorpal> That would make it an issue
19:23:37 <Jafet> clang compiles it: -c { int vector = 0, T = 0, a = 0; vector <T <1>> a; } template <int n> struct T {};
19:23:43 <b_jonas> Vorpal: < to start a template or a comparision, :: to start a global identifier or namespace
19:23:54 <b_jonas> but I think they're fixing this one as well in C++14
19:24:02 <b_jonas> so <:: will mean < :: instead of the current <: :
19:24:04 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I know, but what would <:: without a space mean
19:24:13 <b_jonas> Vorpal: <: is a C++ digraph
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19:24:38 <b_jonas> the second : is a separate token and most likely a syntax error
19:25:31 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-08-17#132744ais523 is the auto-one, I haven't yet found when we had the longer discussion with a couple of examples.
19:25:38 <Vorpal> Why the fuck does upgrading ubuntu break so many things? I upgraded 12.04 to 14.04 on a laptop. Just rebooted it.
19:26:08 <fizzie> There's also a scope trick from Deewiant few lines later.
19:26:31 <elliott_> Vorpal: two years of software upgrades...
19:26:54 <b_jonas> obviously the proper way to write code that differs is #ifdef __cplusplus
19:26:58 <mroman_> Vorpal: with dist-upgrade?
19:26:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, true, but it is LTS -> LTS
19:27:11 <mroman_> apt-get dist-upgrade has caused me only troubles so far.
19:27:13 <Vorpal> mroman_, with the GUI thing that popped up saying "hey there is a new release"
19:27:41 <Jafet> Wouldn't be surprised if LTS doesn't include support for moving to the next LTS
19:28:18 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-03-28#042936zzo38 there's the earlier discussion.
19:28:41 <Jafet> I would just do a clean install of Ubuntu Windows 14.04
19:28:43 <fizzie> But not the one with my name-mangling, and I'm sure there were more examples too.
19:29:11 <b_jonas> back several releases ago, I could successfully upgrade debain to the next release with dist-upgrade, it caused only very few problems
19:29:23 <b_jonas> I haven't done it these days, and won't do it now either
19:29:36 <b_jonas> not because I don't trust dist-upgrade, but because I want to reinstall for other reasons
19:29:38 <fizzie> Oh, this seems to have been a good grep term.
19:29:51 <mroman_> My server doesn't have enough RAM for a dist-upgrade
19:29:54 <fizzie> int main(void) { printf("%d\n", 1//**/2 \n ); } works for C89-vs-C++.
19:29:55 <b_jonas> so I'll not upgrade this system from lenny, but install a new squeeze, or whatever they're called
19:30:05 <b_jonas> I might later do a dist-upgrade on a different machine though
19:30:07 <mroman_> It crashes doing stuff with .ko because "out of memory"
19:30:22 <b_jonas> but only after I tested squeeze on my home computer enough to be confident it works
19:30:32 <b_jonas> and of course I always recommend that you take backups before you dist-upgrade,
19:30:48 <Vorpal> Jafet, it does (supposedly)
19:30:49 <b_jonas> and follow the notes in the debian release notes about what to do before and after dist-upgrade
19:31:03 <Vorpal> Jafet, also "ubuntu windows"??
19:31:03 <b_jonas> don't just blindly run dist-upgrade
19:31:23 <fizzie> int main(void) { int i = 0; { for (int i = 1; !i; ); printf("%d\n", i); } } -- for C99 vs. pre-ISO C++.
19:31:27 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well of course I did. I mean stuff like fucking with my settings
19:31:39 <Vorpal> b_jonas, like changing default desktop environment on login
19:32:01 <Vorpal> I use xfce on that laptop, is is too old to run anything more complex
19:32:08 <Vorpal> Might even go for LXDE
19:32:09 <b_jonas> I think in C++14 you can use apostrophed integer literals to write a program that works differently from previous versions of C++ or C; this is easiest with macros
19:32:28 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/UWcN is the really unportable one I wrote.
19:32:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what did it do in pre-ISO C++?
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19:33:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Old-fashioned" (or Microsoft for a long time, I believe) C++ had the scope of variables from the for-loop initial declarations extend to the block the for loop was in.
19:33:52 <fizzie> GCC has a flag for it, unless they've removed it already.
19:34:27 <b_jonas> in fact, I think it requires macros, and might require variadic macros
19:34:37 <Vorpal> On the MS side, the oldest I used for C++ was 2005, by which point it was starting to get more in line with the standard (though still far from there, especially for templates)
19:34:43 <b_jonas> so it's probably not a really good way to distinguish between older stuff
19:34:53 <b_jonas> but you can at least distinguish between strict c++11 and c++14 with it
19:35:03 <fizzie> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C_002b_002b-Dialect-Options.html "-fno-for-scope" still there.
19:36:18 <Vorpal> Also, fuck boost. Just saying
19:37:02 <Vorpal> At best it is an over-engineered over-complicated library for what you want to do. At worst...
19:37:25 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I like some parts of boost actually
19:37:34 <b_jonas> not all parts, but you can use just some of the parts
19:37:41 <b_jonas> some parts are unmaintained and hard to use
19:37:43 <Vorpal> b_jonas, okay sure, boot::noncopyable is hard to fuck up, I'll admit that
19:37:55 <b_jonas> Vorpal: actually, boost::noncopyable just got worse
19:38:08 <Vorpal> b_jonas, But I was looking at Boost Graph recently at work. What a mess.
19:38:26 <b_jonas> it used to require only a single header, boost/noncopyable.cpp, but now it pulls in lots of other internal headers as a dependency. heck if I know why.
19:38:56 <Vorpal> Anyway I thought it was that header including a single other internal header
19:39:40 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I could be wrong, but I seem to remember it used to include nothing, and now it includes a few headers
19:39:41 <Vorpal> b_jonas, anyway, I don't know of any non-trivial part of boost that is decent
19:40:06 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I like the container library, especially its flat_map and flat_set classes
19:40:19 <Vorpal> Haven't looked at that, I'll admit.
19:40:21 <b_jonas> that one of course is a large library requiring lots of other headers
19:40:49 <b_jonas> only they messed up the docs so large chunks are missing from the compiled docs now
19:40:54 <b_jonas> you ahve to look at docs in older versions
19:41:00 <Vorpal> b_jonas, That multi-index thing was useful I remember, though still a terrible mess of templates
19:41:21 <Vorpal> b_jonas, really? And no one noticed and told them?
19:41:31 <b_jonas> there's already a bug ticket
19:41:50 <b_jonas> it was broken in .55, haven't checked .56
19:41:59 <b_jonas> was still right in .53 iirc
19:42:05 <Vorpal> b_jonas, at work we recently updated from .45 to .54
19:42:17 <b_jonas> I mean 1.55 and 1.56 and 1.53 resp
19:43:00 <b_jonas> I also used some of the other libraries mostly for replacing missing C++11 libraries from older compilers, but these days I don't need that
19:43:16 <Vorpal> Oh great, now that laptop freezes whenever the screen turns off
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19:43:42 <Vorpal> What a terrible bug after an ubuntu upgrade
19:43:45 <b_jonas> but flat_map is still useful
19:44:27 <Vorpal> Well I guess shared_ptr was convenient, still a lot of template bloat
19:44:48 <Vorpal> Anyway STL is messy too
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19:45:20 <b_jonas> and of course, you should choose the right tool for the right job
19:45:22 <Vorpal> Well I'm not going to upgrade my other laptop to 14.04 any time soon
19:45:52 <b_jonas> I'm actually planning to reinstall my computer soon... but soon means I've been planning it for months, and will do it when I find the time
19:46:01 <Vorpal> Like not C++ for everything?
19:46:16 <b_jonas> Vorpal: and various C++ libraries depending in what you need. some projects want boost, some don;t.
19:46:32 <b_jonas> I'm not saying C++ is for everything either, but I quite like C++ these days.
19:46:33 <Vorpal> Oh I recently reinstalled my desktop, since my drives died. (RAID? Hah! More like RADD)
19:46:57 <Vorpal> But still, annoying to deal with
19:47:06 <Vorpal> I went GUID when I was at it anyway
19:47:18 <Vorpal> But I stayed on the same distro (debian wheezy)
19:47:42 <b_jonas> uh, whatever, ok. I don't so sysadmin stuff
19:47:43 <Vorpal> since I have UEFI in my desktop
19:48:04 <Jafet> Succinct array of inexpensive drives
19:48:07 <Vorpal> b_jonas, you know, the replacement for BIOS?
19:48:16 <b_jonas> I didn't know about GUID though
19:48:34 <b_jonas> I was dimly aware that there existed partition tables other than the really old PC one,
19:48:35 <Vorpal> b_jonas, We can finally get rid of the old MBR partition table layout mess with that
19:48:45 <Vorpal> And use GPT (GUID Partition Table)
19:48:56 <b_jonas> but I thought they were mostly for BSD and for RAID/LVM stuff and for non-PC platforms
19:49:19 <Jafet> The old format has been unused for many years
19:49:21 <Vorpal> Well I do LVM on top of RAID, but that has nothing to do with UEFI
19:49:22 <b_jonas> I did have the BSD stuff on my machine, but only inside an ordinary PC partition
19:49:30 <Vorpal> Jafet, MBR? Not really
19:49:47 <b_jonas> well, obviously when I say PC, I don't mean the original PC, but with modern extensions where the CHS no longer matters
19:49:57 <Vorpal> Jafet, My computer isn't that old. 3 years. And Windows 7 is installed on MBR still
19:50:06 <pikhq> MBR/GPT and BIOS/EFI are somewhat orthogonal issues anyways.
19:50:12 <b_jonas> anyway, I use MBR and see no reason to change right now
19:50:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, kind of, but not fully
19:50:24 <pikhq> (EFI can boot just fine from MBR and BIOS can boot just fine from GPT)
19:50:34 <pikhq> Mostly just Windows that conflates it.
19:50:35 <Vorpal> b_jonas, indeed, but you need GPT if you go for larger than 2 TB
19:50:54 <pikhq> b_jonas: It's a hard limit in MBR partitioning.
19:50:57 <b_jonas> why? does MBR store 32 bit unsigned count of 512 byte sectors?
19:51:01 <Vorpal> b_jonas, yep, MBR can't express those bug numbers
19:51:05 <b_jonas> is it not extended to a wider field now?
19:51:19 <Vorpal> b_jonas, you go GPT instead
19:51:29 <b_jonas> not even for some software, like eg. if the BIOS and boot loader doesn't know it but Linux does?
19:51:41 <Jafet> I thought Microsoft shipped GPT with Vista, but apparently Vista didn't boot from it.
19:51:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway apparently some BIOS check that the MBR is reasonable and thus end up refusing to boot from GPT if it looks "fishy"
19:52:26 <b_jonas> pity. I mean, technically I don't need any partition table after bootup, I can just mount unmarked partitions as size-limited loop devices in modern Linux and BSD,
19:52:30 <b_jonas> but a partition table is much safer
19:52:48 <b_jonas> does 2T work fine? because I have a 2TB large disk
19:52:53 <b_jonas> and I didn't know it almost reached that limit
19:53:00 <Vorpal> b_jonas, that is the limit yes
19:53:19 <b_jonas> I'll have to read up on this then
19:53:29 <b_jonas> I didn't know there was no extension for MBR
19:53:30 <Vorpal> Anyway you can mostly just use GPT these days, as long as you don't try to boot from it with windows on a BIOS system
19:54:07 <b_jonas> can I have MBR and GPT on the same disk, with MBR listing partitions on the first 2TB?
19:54:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: How weird. That's utterly improper.
19:54:46 <Vorpal> GPT has a "protective MBR", which just marks the entire disk as allocated
19:54:49 <pikhq> MBR is purely an OS detail.
19:55:07 <b_jonas> Vorpal: sure, but how can it do that if the disk is more than 2TB?
19:55:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, well BIOS loads the first sector basically and executes it
19:55:25 <pikhq> b_jonas: It sets the protective MBR for 2TB instead.
19:55:27 <b_jonas> I mean, large hard disks are cheaper and cheaper these days, though 2TB is the usual size currently
19:55:44 <b_jonas> but if it does that, why can't I just have both on the same disk?
19:56:00 <b_jonas> to, say, use MBR for the bios and boot loader, and GPT in Linux or BSD?
19:56:11 <pikhq> Because there's no way to have it meet both specs easily.
19:56:27 <pikhq> Also, the BIOS only looks at the MBR if it's bad and buggy.
19:56:42 <pikhq> A BIOS system *should* be able to just boot from GPT without any effort.
19:56:50 <b_jonas> the bios only has to aces the partitions with the MBR system
19:56:58 <b_jonas> pikhq: not if I still use grub-l I think
19:57:19 <b_jonas> but I guess I could upgrade to grub2 or syslinux
19:57:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway I'm fairly certain that UEFI parses GPT, no? And the parition table section of MBR
19:57:21 <pikhq> Here is the BIOS' knowledge of the disk format: the first 512 bytes go into memory and are executed.
19:57:26 <b_jonas> when I get such a large disk
19:57:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, it has to.
19:57:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because UEFI actually boots from a filesystem on disk.
19:57:59 <b_jonas> pikhq: yeah. but it's that dumb for hard disks and floppies only; boot from CDs adn network are way more complicated
19:58:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: UEFI is specd so that it can boot from an MBR partitioned filesystem though.
19:58:16 <pikhq> b_jonas: CD boot is about that dumb actually.
19:58:16 <b_jonas> Vorpal: why is that annoying?
19:58:33 <Vorpal> b_jonas, no journalling
19:58:42 <b_jonas> Vorpal: sure, but it's just a boot partition
19:58:46 <Vorpal> Also good luck doing MDRAID on that
19:58:49 <Jafet> You don't need to journal a read-only partition
19:58:53 <pikhq> b_jonas: The El Torito standard basically shoves an offset to where a filesystem image is on the CD, and the BIOS sets up the BIOS interrupts so that they point there.
19:58:58 <Vorpal> Jafet, except during grub updates
19:58:58 <pikhq> And then normal BIOS boot happens.
19:59:16 <b_jonas> Vorpal: you mean what if your system crashes just when you rename your kernel on the boot partition?
19:59:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does UEFI boot from CD or USB stick work?
19:59:26 <b_jonas> is taht why you need journaling?
19:59:33 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well yes, I my case it is grub2 on the EFI parition
19:59:37 <pikhq> It's a separate El Torito image.
19:59:42 <Vorpal> My kernel is still on the ext4 /boot
19:59:46 <pikhq> Well. USB stick it's a 100% normal EFI boot.
19:59:51 <pikhq> CD, it's just El Torito.
19:59:55 <pikhq> Because of course it is.
20:00:14 <Jafet> Well, use a recovery drive to reinstall grub
20:00:23 <Vorpal> Also it makes it annoying to mirror the EFI partition between my disks in RAID1
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20:00:50 <Vorpal> For now I basically run rsync to copy that partition to the second drive
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20:01:04 <pikhq> On the bright side, it finally gives Linux a legally excusable reason to have a FAT driver.
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20:02:05 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I for one currently have grub-l and my kernel on a fat16 partition, but I might use ext3 instead next time I do this stuff
20:02:11 <pikhq> Microsoft asserts patents on FAT32 (bullshit, but there it is).
20:02:23 <pikhq> There is a patent grant for implementing FAT32 for purposes of EFI though.
20:02:33 <b_jonas> pikhq: what? I do need a FAT32 driver for accessing memory cards of my mobile phone and digital cameras
20:02:39 <b_jonas> that's why I have them in my kernel
20:03:39 <pikhq> But you don't have a patent license for it.
20:03:48 <Vorpal> b_jonas, My setup is a 512 MB EFI system parition (FAT32), then a 512 MB MDRAID ext4 /boot. Then the rest of the disk is an MDRAID LVM2, with a 32G / (I no longer use separate /usr)
20:03:48 <b_jonas> besides, that driver is not that big anyway, though it has some ugly parts about translating filenames which could be too large
20:03:53 <pikhq> But you don't have a patent license for it.
20:03:58 <Vorpal> And of course separate /var /tmp, /home
20:04:21 <b_jonas> pikhq: don't the manufacturers of those digital cameras and mobile phones have a license for it that I can use if I have the digital camera?
20:04:35 <pikhq> The license only applies to the digital camera.
20:04:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, surely you mean exfat?
20:04:42 <pikhq> The digital camera has the license, you do not.
20:04:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, that has patents I know of
20:04:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, they also assert patents on FAT32, in particular long file names.
20:05:08 <pikhq> And yes it's bullshit.
20:05:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm fairly certain everyone still ships Linux with vfat
20:05:15 <Vorpal> And don't care about what MS think
20:05:22 <pikhq> Unless you're an Android vendor.
20:05:29 <pikhq> MS does shakedowns on them.
20:05:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I'm pretty sure my phone shipped with buggy exfat support even
20:06:06 <Vorpal> It was unusable, so I switched to fat32
20:06:10 <b_jonas> pikhq: I don't need the long filenames for the digital camera, nor their sucky way of filling up all bytes of the 32 byte long directory entry in such a way that it's really hard to add a compatible extension such as for mtimes past year 2127
20:06:17 <b_jonas> or whatever was the year limit
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20:07:16 <Vorpal> Anyway, I look forward to btrfs becoming stable
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20:08:09 <elliott_> Vorpal: it is considered mostly stable now, I believe.
20:08:44 <b_jonas> there'll be major suckage in 2107, when all the cash registers and digital cameras will be unable to write proper mtimes and there's no easy way to extend fat to allow that
20:09:10 <b_jonas> and people will hastily try to find solutions for that a few years before, and will come up with various mutually incompatible solutions
20:09:18 <Jafet> btrfs-tools is still fairly useless at this time
20:09:21 <b_jonas> I wish they'd think forward more
20:09:42 <elliott_> Jafet: well, I mean the disk format is stable
20:09:51 <b_jonas> and you say UEFI requires this too?
20:09:53 <elliott_> I think the tools are fine for everyday use.
20:10:04 <elliott_> b_jonas: UEFI uses a FAT-32 system partition just to store bootloaders essentially
20:10:10 <elliott_> (plus diagnostic tools and the like)
20:10:32 <b_jonas> elliott_: well sure, but mtimes would be still nice to have
20:10:51 <pikhq> Also, it's not that using FAT32 is required per se, it's that FAT32 is the only filesystem that a UEFI firmware is *required* to support.
20:10:53 <b_jonas> I'm not saying computers will suddenly be unbootable at that point or anything
20:10:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, There is exfat I suppose
20:11:10 <pikhq> It's perfectly valid for a UEFI firmware to support any number of other filesystems.
20:11:12 <elliott_> pikhq: right. apple's efi can read HFS+
20:11:28 <elliott_> though it's a bad example, since I hear it's a jumbled incompliant specialised mix of EFI 1 and UEFI
20:11:42 <b_jonas> pikhq: sure, but that means if you want your operating system software to work on all UEFI computers, it has to use FAT for the boot partition
20:11:42 <pikhq> Because that's Apple for ya.
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20:12:00 <Jafet> There is no reason to care about 2107 AD, because we'll be dead by then
20:12:05 <elliott_> pikhq: to be fair they deployed x86 EFI before anyone else
20:12:30 <pikhq> And strictly speaking nobody else has deployed *x86* EFI in a non-trivial scale. :)
20:12:33 <elliott_> (ok, maybe not anyone else, but close enough)
20:12:41 <Jafet> And, hope upon hopes, fat32 will be dead long before then
20:12:41 <b_jonas> Jafet: but our childrens will be alive (not that I have children, but in general)
20:12:42 <pikhq> (it's pretty much all x86_64 EFI otherwise)
20:12:55 <b_jonas> Jafet: we should hope that, yes
20:13:05 <elliott_> pikhq: I tihnk apple was shipping 64-bit from the start too?
20:13:18 <b_jonas> Jafet: but if they use it not only in new cameras and cash regsiters, but also in new UEFI standards, then it will be hard to kill it
20:13:21 <pikhq> elliott_: Yes, but their EFI implementation is 32-bit unconditionally.
20:13:37 <elliott_> pikhq: I don't believe you http://www.everymac.com/mac-answers/snow-leopard-mac-os-x-faq/mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bit-macs-64-bit-efi-boot-in-64-bit-mode.html
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20:13:49 <pikhq> Ah, guess they changed it at some point.
20:13:52 <Vorpal> b_jonas, Actually the OS can still use something else, as long as the boot loader can be stored on FAT32
20:13:59 <elliott_> I remember a lot of fuss many years back about 32 vs 64-bit firmware and kernel
20:14:02 <pikhq> Snow Leopard apparently.
20:14:08 <b_jonas> I won't store my OS on FAT32
20:14:16 <elliott_> pretty sure it's all 64 bit all the time now and all models with any amount of 32 bit in them are unsupported
20:14:46 <elliott_> Vorpal: to be fair, the kernel/initrd will probably be stored in FAT-32 a lot
20:14:52 <pikhq> Strictly speaking the kernel doesn't have to be accessible from EFI, just some binary that eventually loads the kernel.
20:15:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, well I went for grub.efi on FAT32 and the kernel/initramfs on ext4
20:15:13 <elliott_> since you don't need all the GRUB or the like machinery with UEFI, especially now that the kernel supports native UEFI booting
20:15:15 <pikhq> (though one of the easier ways to boot Linux on EFI is just to throw EFI at the kernel)
20:15:27 <elliott_> and can get away with a simple boot menu like gummiboot, which doesn't have any linux-specific knowledge
20:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, since that is what the debian docs suggested
20:15:43 <Vorpal> So I mount the EFI parititon on /boot/efi
20:15:43 <b_jonas> pikhq: sure, you can have any number of boot loaders between them, counting a small linux with a fs driver and kexec as a potential bootloader
20:15:48 <pikhq> Yeah, Debian's got infrastructure for automanaging GRUB.
20:15:59 <elliott_> Vorpal: yes, I just would hope that lighter-weight stuff becomes more common over time, since making /boot the efi system partition is simpler and has less moving parts
20:16:19 <b_jonas> pikhq: I know. I just don't trust that. I want to manage my grub myself, and I do.
20:16:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, well sure, but then I need to deal with the fact that my /boot doesn't behave as a proper POSIX file system with symlinks and what not
20:16:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: and since I think expecting bootloaders to be able to, like, read btrfs is a dead end
20:16:44 <elliott_> (sure some of them can do it but do they support compression etc.? syslinux doesn't support lzo compression on btrfs, for instance)
20:17:03 <elliott_> (it seems ridiculous to support these complex filesystems in the bootloader when there is a deliberately simple filesystem set aside for booting purposes already)
20:17:13 <b_jonas> Vorpal: so you put your boot loader on a FAT but your kernel on an ext or reiser fs?
20:17:24 <Vorpal> b_jonas, reiser? hell no
20:17:31 <elliott_> Vorpal: you use symlinks for your initrd? :p
20:17:37 <elliott_> POSIX ACLs on your kernel to set who can boot it!
20:17:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, no, but debian scripts does weird shit with the grub config
20:18:03 <b_jonas> elliott_: I agree, even if the boot loader only neads read support, and it might do some of the reading inefficiently, eg. traverse all directory entries instead of hashing the filename and descending the b-tree the right way
20:18:05 <elliott_> I suppose something like deduplication could be useful in /boot.
20:18:12 <elliott_> for multiple kernel versions or such
20:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway I *do* use mdraid for /boot
20:18:48 <b_jonas> Vorpal: even at boot time?
20:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, and that metadata block is first on the parition, messing up for something like UEFI reading it
20:18:53 <elliott_> b_jonas: right. I just don't think we should have our bootloaders be weird mini-OSes nowadays because UEFI is already a weird mini-OS
20:19:05 <Vorpal> That is a good point yes
20:19:08 <b_jonas> Vorpal: as in, does the boot loader know about the raid too, or does it just read the kernel one of the mirrored copies
20:19:12 <elliott_> and because bootloaders don't really have to be linux-specific at all these days
20:19:24 <elliott_> something like gummiboot just runs UEFI executables, because the kernel has been one itself for a while now, it's its own bootloader
20:20:01 <b_jonas> elliott_: the kernel had been its own bootloader for a while at least if you put it on a floppy, but they dropped that part
20:20:06 <elliott_> I think it is nicer than the old BIOS setup overall, even though it has a ton of cruft.
20:20:12 <elliott_> b_jonas: heh, yeah, I remember something like that
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20:20:26 <Vorpal> b_jonas, It knows I think
20:20:57 <b_jonas> I never used that own feature, I used only lilo and loadlin and grub-l and syslinux to boot anything
20:21:03 <Vorpal> b_jonas, yep it knows, insmod raid http://sprunge.us/bJOC
20:21:18 <pikhq> b_jonas: It was fairly limited.
20:21:23 <elliott_> another thing is that with secure boot you don't really want to trust a bootloader that will execute arbitrary other unsigned boot code
20:21:37 <elliott_> (when using it to authenticate your boot)
20:21:38 <pikhq> IIRC it only even worked if you dd'd it straight to floppy and compiled in command line arguments.
20:21:53 <elliott_> and nobody wants to implement code signing stuff in a bootloader when again UEFI already handles that
20:21:54 <b_jonas> pikhq: worse than taht actually
20:22:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, the problem with gummiboot (which is a simple menu, much simpler than grub afaik) I read is that it doesn't work properly on all UEFI implementations
20:22:13 <b_jonas> pikhq: no command line argument, but a few bytes giving specific settings that you would normally set command line options
20:22:18 <elliott_> (you still have to make linux do code signing for modules and some other stuff, but that's a less avoidable task)
20:22:27 <b_jonas> pikhq: eg. a byte to set the root fs device
20:22:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: right... there's no real solution to that other than waiting for bad ones to get better
20:22:47 <elliott_> but I think they're a lot better than they were a few years ago these days
20:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, on my specific board it is supposed to blackscreen apparently. So I didn't even try it
20:23:05 <Vorpal> And I have an early UEFI
20:23:07 <elliott_> it is a little sad how UEFI exposes so many convenience APIs but they're unreliable
20:23:15 <Vorpal> Not much is going to happen with it
20:23:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, that was what the old PPC macs had right?
20:24:04 <Vorpal> Some sort of FORTH environment iirc
20:24:07 <elliott_> it's common on lots of non-x86 stuff
20:24:13 <elliott_> originally by Sun but it's an open standard, hence the name
20:24:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, arm uses uboot iirc?=
20:24:28 <pikhq> ARM uses whatever the hell people feel like.
20:24:30 <elliott_> yeah I mean like sparc and power and stuff
20:24:41 <b_jonas> I don't see why I'd want raid/llvm in my boot loader even if I used it in the operating system
20:24:42 <elliott_> red hat are pushing for standardising on UEFI for arm
20:24:46 <Vorpal> I looked into how rpi boots
20:24:51 <Vorpal> It is interesting to say the least
20:24:58 <b_jonas> as in, just put the boot file system on an ordinary partition accessible without llvm or raid
20:24:59 <Vorpal> The GPU loads the kernel apparently
20:25:02 <elliott_> which is probably better than the unstandardised mess it uses now.
20:25:06 <Vorpal> Yes that was not a typo
20:25:16 <elliott_> store your kernel as llvm bitcode
20:25:26 <pikhq> The "GPU" is a full CPU with some fancy firmware.
20:25:34 <pikhq> That happens to be well-suited for graphics.
20:25:44 <pikhq> The ARM on it is a low-powered coprocessor.
20:25:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: sadly bitcode isn't really portable
20:25:52 <Vorpal> b_jonas, the thing is, should one drive fail, my /boot can be mirrored back to the replacement drive
20:26:01 <Vorpal> that is the point of RAID after all
20:26:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: UEFI does support multi-architecture stuff with a single ESP though
20:26:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, what is ESP now again
20:26:18 <pikhq> elliott_: Also irritating is that they're trying to get ACPI on ARM.
20:26:24 <b_jonas> Vorpal: /boot can be mirrored anyway, only the boot loader will access only one copy
20:26:31 <elliott_> so if you had a portable bitcode sorta kernel and a few UEFI executables to compile and run it on the fly...
20:26:46 <pikhq> ACPI is by design fairly x86-specific, and there's already a well-known solution to everything it does on ARM.
20:26:47 <elliott_> pikhq: right, and ARM people don't like that because they have their device tree thing?
20:26:47 <b_jonas> Vorpal: and I can switch over to a second copy if the first hard drive fial
20:26:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, I wonder why we can't use the GPU for CPU duty on the RPi...
20:26:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, that would be neat
20:27:07 <elliott_> pikhq: all my info here is just from michael garrett :p
20:27:07 <pikhq> elliott_: Yeah. Device trees are a fully-general and well engineered solution.
20:27:08 <Vorpal> Probably not well supported or open though
20:27:18 <elliott_> pikhq: doesn't linus hate them or something
20:27:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Only just that the GPU is poorly documented.
20:27:34 <pikhq> elliott_: Yes, but he hates ACPI more.
20:28:05 <b_jonas> mind you, right now I don't have any sort of mirroring or llvm or raid system, so I don't do this
20:28:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, what sort of GPU is it anyway...
20:28:21 <b_jonas> if my primary hard drive failed, I'd boot from a CD and restore from backups
20:28:25 <pikhq> Some sort of Broadcom chip.
20:28:25 <Vorpal> Not the standard ARM reference one I suppose
20:28:29 <elliott_> pikhq: ACPI does legitimately seem like the sort of huge mess that is more fuss than it is worth but it seems like we're stuck with it
20:28:31 <b_jonas> I have some boot CDs ready
20:28:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, that describes a lot of the modern tech world
20:29:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: well, UEFI is a huge mess but I think it's probably still a net positive, for instance :P
20:29:20 <Vorpal> Yeah BIOS wasn't a clean design indeed
20:29:53 <elliott_> I've become really disheartened wondering what the correct way is to, like, display some pixels on the screen or interact with some other hardware without any "legacy" stuff in 2014 and the answer goes like "well, first you have to write an ACPI bytecode interpreter"
20:30:12 <nys> what a Joke
20:30:28 <pikhq> BIOS was somewhat sensible for the IBM PC.
20:30:38 <pikhq> And then nobody let it die.
20:30:40 <Vorpal> elliott_, Well shouldn't you load the proper driver too?
20:30:43 <elliott_> has anyone written ACPI malware btw
20:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott_, Where would it store itself?
20:31:00 <elliott_> Vorpal: what driver? you're writing the driver
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20:31:13 <elliott_> in some kind of firmware memory, presumably
20:31:26 <b_jonas> as I see, the problem with the original XT BIOS is that it had a well-designed documented public API, but then everyone used the undocumented parts so every PC clone had to support those too
20:31:27 <elliott_> maybe you can do a buffer overflow by crafting special invalid boot options
20:31:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, exactly. I assume you can't just output a framebuffer in a generic way?
20:31:39 <elliott_> and rootkit every kernel that does ACPI
20:31:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, but have to have separate nvidia and amd drivers
20:31:59 <pikhq> b_jonas: And then BIOS vendors started adding random crap to it to support new things.
20:32:00 <elliott_> Vorpal: well, there's like, VESA
20:32:01 <b_jonas> these undocumented parts include memory addresses, including odd memory addresses for two-byte words (which had no penalty on 8088)
20:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah, true, forgot about that
20:32:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, doesn't ACPI do byte code or some crap?
20:32:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: VESA involves bizarre 16-bit stuff in old versions and I don't know if people support the newer versions that don't?
20:32:47 <elliott_> but I guess s/display stuff/any other kind of hardware interaction/ since admittedly graphics are especially bad
20:33:06 <elliott_> and I was more referring to just the huge pain it is to *get* to find and talk to the hardware in a non-legacy way
20:33:13 <b_jonas> elliott_: so, like, hard disk and cd reads? keyboard?
20:33:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, so.. lets avoid hardware and just do software? In other words, don't write an OS
20:33:46 <elliott_> if you want to do mouse and keyboard you have to implement USB!!
20:33:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, but I still have a PS/2 port!
20:34:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, You need to support that too
20:34:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: I fully "support" ripping it out
20:34:25 <b_jonas> right, you need to support serial, AT keyboard, PS2, and USB
20:34:36 <elliott_> you need to support AT keyboard so you can flip the A20 line
20:34:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, the laptop next to me has a parallel port on the back. It is old admittedly
20:34:46 <elliott_> or was that another keyboard standard
20:34:55 <b_jonas> elliott_: heh... no, you don't need that these days I think
20:34:58 <elliott_> see, no A20 line crap, that's a nice thing about UEFI!
20:35:07 <b_jonas> elliott_: that was needed before 386
20:35:15 <elliott_> they added nicer ways to flip it off
20:35:15 <b_jonas> elliott_: and the A20 line is not even the most important part
20:35:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm fairly certain there is still an ISA bus in modern computers
20:35:28 <elliott_> but in real mode bootloader code by default your memory is halved by repeating like that
20:35:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, at least lm-sensors detects nct6776-isa-0290
20:35:44 <elliott_> you can try turning it off via a less silly BIOS call than talking to the fake keyboard controller, but on some machines that just, like, hangs
20:35:50 <b_jonas> the more important part was that 286 couldn't switch from protected mode to real mode, so the real mode memory driver that had to access memory in protected mode asked the motherboard through the keyboard controller to reboot the cpu
20:36:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not an ISA bus, but some special bus that looks identical to software.
20:36:02 <b_jonas> that hack is way worse than the A20 line
20:36:07 <elliott_> http://wiki.osdev.org/A20_Line
20:36:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, I still have an old computer in this room with a real ISA slot!
20:36:28 <elliott_> "here's three ways to do it -- the legacy way and two simpler ways. by the way, you have to try them all"
20:36:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, also PC card, and AGP. And of course real PCI
20:37:58 <b_jonas> at some point I used an AT slot keyboard with an AT->PS2 controller that I had to pull off and replug after any power loss (but not after ordinary turning off the machine), because apparently the motherboard wasn't tested for AT keyboards
20:38:21 <b_jonas> not a real AT keyboard, just a Compaq keyboard with AT plug
20:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, must be nice to be Apple. Just a few devices to care about and test on
20:39:03 <elliott_> vertical integration is a soothing thing
20:39:07 <b_jonas> Vorpal: don't they like have to support any USB device too?
20:39:23 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well that is still less of a mess than supporting any chipset
20:40:38 <b_jonas> but yes, Linux does a good job of supporting all kinds of old hardware generally
20:40:45 <b_jonas> from back when hardware came with a documented interface
20:40:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, " Test if A20 is enabled in a loop with a time-out (as the fast A20 method may work slowly) " I love that the "fast" method might work "slowly"
20:41:23 <Vorpal> b_jonas, yes, i486 or newer these days I believe
20:41:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: seriously, people who whine about UEFI being unnecessary overcomplicated cruft have never seen what it takes to boot an x86 BIOS machine
20:41:46 <b_jonas> Vorpal: it's not really the cpu I'm talking about
20:41:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, And UEFI is still overcomplicated
20:41:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: going from the state you start out in to 64-bit with paging is like one of those movie montages going through 20 years of computing history
20:41:51 <b_jonas> more like the rest of the system
20:42:08 <elliott_> fix real mode to not have horribly broken memory, set up protected mode with segmentation and everything, only to arrange long mode...
20:42:17 <b_jonas> elliott_: yeah, or development of fetuses
20:42:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, You need to go through segmentation?
20:42:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, I thought you just had to go to flat paged protected mode
20:42:49 <elliott_> yeah but you have to set up dummy "segments" for that :p
20:43:00 <b_jonas> Vorpal: no, I think you need flat unpaged. the segments are there. the page table isn't.
20:43:00 <elliott_> it's not really segmented, but...
20:43:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, but lm still uses that, for something iirc
20:43:13 <Vorpal> the fs segment is used for offsets for something iirc
20:43:15 <b_jonas> you have to set up a single segment
20:43:22 <elliott_> I wonder if UEFI firmwares go through that dance themselves
20:43:39 <elliott_> they need to be able to go back to "Welcome to 1985!" mode for CSM BIOS booting, at least
20:43:51 <elliott_> do they have code to deliberately downgrade everything? :)
20:43:52 <b_jonas> elliott_: some of it most likely, at least the part until protected mode, either 16 or 23 bit
20:44:01 <b_jonas> they might not need to go to long mode
20:44:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, To some extent I guess, probably don't need to try all ways to enable A20, they probably know which one will work
20:44:07 <elliott_> b_jonas: 64-bit UEFI is long mode
20:44:16 <elliott_> and that's the only version anyone bothers deploying (mostly)
20:44:18 <b_jonas> they can't stay in real mode because then they can't access enough memory
20:44:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, they need to be able to downgrade yes I guess
20:44:42 <elliott_> yeah, I guess the CPU is always going to start in hell mode rather than initialising straight in long mode or whatever
20:44:56 <b_jonas> but then how does that access 32-bit ACPI?
20:45:05 <pikhq> That's just the initial eecution mode.
20:45:16 <elliott_> thankfully, I am not a firmware developer
20:45:24 <elliott_> that's even worse than being an OS developer
20:45:38 <elliott_> you have to write code that works without any /RAM/ for a while
20:45:39 <Vorpal> That is interesting, how do BIOS access enough memory to store all the ACPI shit
20:45:47 <b_jonas> elliott_: I don't think the CPU starting in real mode is the big problem. it's more how you have to use that mode for accessing the BIOS and VESA and ACPI and maintainer mode and whatever all that stuff is
20:45:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, they presumably use the cache for data storage?
20:46:05 <pikhq> BTW, elliott, you can skip from real mode straight to long mode.
20:46:16 <elliott_> Vorpal: to initialise everything so they can talk to the RAM
20:46:28 <pikhq> The only real difference between protected and long mode is a flag on the code and data segment.
20:46:30 <Vorpal> b_jonas, maintainer mode, which one is that now again
20:46:35 <elliott_> pikhq: that's when you sort of half set up protected mode and then cheat a little, right?
20:46:45 <elliott_> is that actually allowed by the "spec"?
20:46:49 <b_jonas> elliott_: do you need cache for that? I thought the memory-mapped ROM and registers were enough.
20:46:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, pretty sure the answer is no
20:47:10 <pikhq> elliott_: Yes. Long mode is literally just an extra flag on the segment.
20:47:16 <b_jonas> Vorpal: maybe it's called something else. some CPU mode like real mode that is used to access ACPI from long mode or some shit like that.
20:47:21 <fizzie> pikhq: The Intel manual specifies no state transition directly from Real-Address mode to IA-32e Mode.
20:47:21 <elliott_> b_jonas: coreboot uses cache at that stage, at least, I think
20:47:50 <elliott_> b_jonas: I guess motherboards and memory and everything are all fancy now and it's more complicated to set up? I know literally nothing about the process.
20:48:00 <pikhq> fizzie: Who said anything about IA-32e?
20:48:04 <elliott_> b_jonas: alternatively, it's just convenient to have more RAM than registers give you
20:48:27 <b_jonas> I guess you can do that in modern cpus
20:48:28 <elliott_> (what does using the L1 cache for storage even /look/ like in code? I should read coreboot)
20:48:32 <fizzie> pikhq: That's what "Long Mode" is.
20:48:44 <pikhq> fizzie: Why the hell did Intel invent a new name for it?
20:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, my "BIOS", is pretty fancy, if you brick it you can make it load a backup from an USB drive in a special port on the back while holding a button on the mobo
20:48:51 <b_jonas> obviously that method didn't yet exist for old cpus
20:48:52 <pikhq> Also I would not care about Intel's docs.
20:48:55 <pikhq> It's not their design.
20:49:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, so yes I guess it is a lot more complicated
20:49:12 <fizzie> pikhq: Not just one new name, they also called it EM64T for a while.
20:49:21 <fizzie> And now they call it "Intel 64".
20:49:24 <elliott_> pikhq: I just wouldn't want to rely on it when it's not much more work to go into protected mode.
20:49:39 <fizzie> (The mode is still called IA-32e.)
20:49:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, also there is another button that checks for valid memory configurations while the system is not booted, and signals if it is ok or not using some leds
20:50:18 * elliott_ tries to find early-stage coreboot code
20:50:32 <b_jonas> man, computers are complicated these days
20:51:24 <elliott_> they have been for a long time :/
20:51:44 <elliott_> isn't there a C compiler that uses cache as storage or something
20:51:49 <elliott_> I remember hearing coreboot used that or something
20:52:43 <b_jonas> elliott_: there's a C compiler at boot time made from TCC, but I don't think it uses cache as storage, only ordinary RAM
20:53:15 <fizzie> Relevant (if entirely outdated) article: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.35.45 "High-Performance IP Routing Table Lookup Using CPU Caching"
20:53:16 <b_jonas> (well, you know, it sure uses cache but the cpu handles that transparently)
20:53:20 <fizzie> I remember it was v. fancy.
20:53:24 <elliott_> b_jonas: right, I mean an ahead-of-time thing
20:53:31 <elliott_> b_jonas: it compiles C code to machine code that doesn't use RAM but cache
20:53:43 <elliott_> because... writing early-stage boot stuff in assembly is just too much of a pain, I guess?
20:55:28 <elliott_> http://review.coreboot.org/gitweb?p=coreboot.git;a=blob;f=src/arch/x86/init/bootblock_normal.c;h=218d456ad326050aeb5ff171ab1cbb35b75934d5;hb=HEAD if (boot_cpu()) is a great bit of code (I guess this boots other CPUs in SMP or something)
20:56:16 <elliott_> http://www.coreboot.org/Developer_Manual#coreboot_Overview ah
20:56:38 <elliott_> romcc was what I was thinking of
20:56:39 <b_jonas> elliott_: what? doesn't only the real OS have to boot other CPUs?
20:56:55 <fizzie> To call back on the earlier topic, whether or not "x86-64" is Intel's design is pretty irrelevant to what are the legal ways of switching modes on an Intel processor (of which there are quite a few), and the Intel manual is pretty clear on that: "On Intel 64 processors, the IA32_EFER_ MSR is cleared on system reset. The operating system must be in protected mode with paging enabled before attempting to initialize IA-32e mode."
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20:57:13 <elliott_> b_jonas: I don't know, honestly. that code doesn't seem to be part of that boot sequence on that wiki page I linked.
20:58:08 <elliott_> I like how this code works around /bugs in gas/
20:58:19 <elliott_> when you can't even trust your assembler...
20:58:28 <b_jonas> elliott_: as in, actual bugs, or just no support for later extensions in older gas?
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20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, where is that workaround?
20:59:55 <elliott_> see http://review.coreboot.org/gitweb?p=coreboot.git;a=blob;f=src/cpu/x86/16bit/reset16.inc;h=33712d179911b2a4e64c5a79d98d81bdc3fc22bc;hb=HEAD and http://review.coreboot.org/gitweb?p=coreboot.git;a=blob;f=src/cpu/x86/16bit/entry16.inc;h=c82edfd93698e56acde4c1fd45e79ec25d5f2ef0;hb=HEAD
21:00:00 <b_jonas> are those bugs for 16 bit (real or protected) mode only?
21:00:03 <elliott_> two comments about gas/binutils workarounds :)
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21:00:43 <elliott_> 79 * The criteria for relocation have been relaxed to their
21:00:43 <elliott_> 80 * utmost, so that we can use the same code for both
21:00:43 <elliott_> 81 * our initial entry point and startup of the second cpu.
21:00:48 <elliott_> so, coreboot /can/ initialise other CPUs
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21:00:55 <elliott_> I guess because it is more flexible than just doing BIOS
21:02:29 <b_jonas> elliott_: I don't think those are assembler bugs. one of them is a linker bug for 16-bit cpu mode, the other is just missing features supporting convenient syntax for segmented modes
21:02:54 <b_jonas> so the first one is a binutils bug, but only for 16 bit modes probably.
21:03:27 <b_jonas> unless perhaps it affects instructions with 16 bit long address override (accessing the first 64k) in 32 bit mode
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21:03:45 <elliott_> why is this making me want to play with firmware code :/
21:03:46 <b_jonas> those are rarely used, because you rarely know taht somethign is in the first 64k address space
21:03:57 <elliott_> I wonder what the boot process looks like for other architectures
21:04:00 <elliott_> I bet it's so much less baroque
21:04:22 <b_jonas> elliott_: you only don't know enough about those architectures :-)
21:04:33 <elliott_> yeah, that's why they're a nice fantasy :p
21:04:34 <Sgeo> I really like the 'lu li la' melody. Although I think it's inaccurate to call it a melody, each song which has it seems to be a bit different when it uses them
21:04:53 <elliott_> still, I figure x86 has gotten more than its fair share of cruft just due to its popularity and longetivity
21:05:04 <b_jonas> I mean, the problem with ARM is that until recently ARM machines didn't have good ways to discover the hardware configuration, because they were lots of different architectures, unlike x86 which is almost all PC
21:05:13 <elliott_> I'd be interested in learning how POWER or SPARC machines or whatever boot
21:05:23 <elliott_> right... ARM suffers from popularity too
21:05:38 <b_jonas> in this, x86 is actually better because it has a bios, even if that bios sucks
21:05:55 <b_jonas> (obviously there are some non-PC x86 machines, but very few.)
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21:07:00 <b_jonas> it's lucky there are no pre-486 machines anymore
21:07:06 <elliott_> fm towns! pc-98! okay, maybe you count those as PC, but they're not all that compatible
21:07:27 <Bike> i did not know pc-98 was 86
21:07:46 <Bike> this is totally going to alter my la mulana experience or whatever
21:08:01 <b_jonas> well, maybe I live in a sort of closed world were I don't want to consider the possibility of non-PC non-x86_64 machines
21:08:08 <b_jonas> because I'm really a software guy, not a hardware guy
21:08:20 <b_jonas> I just refuse to work with such machines
21:08:28 <Bike> oh, la mulana was about msx, not pc-98
21:08:47 <elliott_> FM Towns Marty totally preempted the trend of x86 consoles
21:08:51 <Bike> guess i'll have to resort to h4xing toho then
21:09:20 <Bike> «This refers to Charles Townes, one of the winners of the 1964 Nobel Prize in Physics, following a custom of Fujitsu at the time to code name PC products after Nobel Prize winners» what...
21:09:21 <elliott_> (I wonder what /their/ firmware is like)
21:10:03 <Vorpal> <elliott_> yeah, that's why they're a nice fantasy :p <-- ARM is messy, and not standardalized at all
21:10:11 <Vorpal> Much worse than PC in that aspect
21:10:18 <fizzie> Incidentally, the AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual is pretty clear too: "Protected mode must be entered before activating long mode. A minimal protected-mode environment must be established to allow long-mode initialization to take place."
21:10:26 <elliott_> why can't we just use UEFI on Z80 or something
21:10:32 <fizzie> (It does seem to allow you to dispense with setting up legacy paging, which you might count as "going directly from real mode to long mode", but you do need to set CR.PE0 to 1 -- enable protected mode -- and set EFER.LMA to 1 -- enable long mode -- as two discrete steps. Admitteldy long mode will only "activate" when CR0.PG is set to enable paging.)
21:11:10 <elliott_> I know about unreal mode, but can you do some kind of unprotected mode?
21:11:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, I think sparc is openfirmware
21:11:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, same for power mostly
21:11:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, not sure what happens with stuff like Cell in PS4 though
21:12:04 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode oh, the NSA have actually done rootkits with this
21:12:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, SMM is a mess when doing real time systems I know that
21:13:04 <Bike> i see the nsa still uses the cia cryptonym school of naming
21:13:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, which is one reason we don't use off-the-shelf hardware at work
21:13:18 <elliott_> SOUFFLETROUGH! SCHOOLMONTANA! DEITYBOUNCE! IRONCHEF! wait, /iron chef/?
21:13:45 <elliott_> how do they work on those without cracking up
21:13:52 <elliott_> "ah yes, I was just treaking the... souffle trough"
21:14:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: you never really needed paging, as in 32 bit protected mode always worked without paging too, only that didn't get much use, except as an intermediate step when booting into paged 32 bit mode
21:14:43 <elliott_> can you use SMM for like, running a hypervisor
21:14:49 <b_jonas> can you skip 16 bit protected mode to set up 32 bit protected mode though?
21:15:04 <Bike> hm, the dep of state was codenamed ODACID
21:15:10 <b_jonas> elliott_: no, there's a separate mode for that
21:15:21 <elliott_> b_jonas: yeah but that's less fun
21:15:24 <Bike> "ODENVY: Federal Bureau of Investigation" you stupid assholes
21:15:34 <b_jonas> elliott_: I think this supervisor mode is for ACPI stuff
21:15:50 <fizzie> elliott_: You could argue that the 32-bit compatibility submode of long mode is an "unprotected mode", based on how unreal mode lets "real mode" code access beyond the segment limits, and the compatibility submode lets 32-bit code run. Though that breaks down if you look too closely at the details.
21:16:37 <elliott_> oh, SMM uses unreal mode, great
21:16:55 <Bike> in the desert of the real mode
21:17:07 <elliott_> look I'm just going to do everything in vm86 mode from now on and cry
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21:17:32 <elliott_> ooh, are there any hacks you can do to get at vm86 mode from long mode
21:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, you can't do vm86 if you are in long mode I think
21:17:41 <elliott_> like, maybe sort of partially sort of exiting long mode so you can get at it
21:17:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, well you could reset the CPU I guess
21:17:53 <elliott_> yeah I mean less dramatically :p
21:17:57 <Vorpal> But the overhead would be terrible
21:18:32 <Vorpal> Is VIA still around btw?
21:18:42 <Vorpal> Or is it just Intel and AMD making x86 CPUs these days
21:18:53 <Vorpal> Also Cyrix and Transmeta I guess
21:19:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, they still make x86?
21:19:35 <b_jonas> std::string::size_type can be a signed integral type?
21:19:36 <elliott_> looks like via even does quad cores now
21:19:37 <fizzie> The process of leaving long mode is there in the manuals, at least.
21:19:39 <b_jonas> I thought it woudl be always unsigned
21:20:18 <elliott_> they have pretty fancy processors, for being bad, slow x86
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21:20:39 <elliott_> crypto acceleration, 3d graphics, H.264
21:21:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, speaking of which, how does TPM work? And how does it work when you don't have secureboot?
21:21:33 <elliott_> I don't think it has anything to do with secure boot
21:21:40 <elliott_> it's just a piece of hardware you can talk to
21:21:53 <elliott_> that will do crypto on some keys it has for you
21:21:55 <Vorpal> I know my thinkpad has it, but it is pre-EFI
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21:22:20 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
21:22:21 <Vorpal> I guess it would be useful for hard disk encryption maybe
21:22:27 <elliott_> yes bitlocker uses it for that
21:22:43 <elliott_> it can do some kind of hardware authentication stuff too it seems
21:23:45 * pikhq finds the market for old game consoles to have gotten really confusing
21:23:47 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_x86_manufacturers
21:23:56 <elliott_> looks like intel, amd and via are the only people still running
21:24:06 <elliott_> someone should write an open source vhdl/verilog implementation of x86-64 or something
21:24:11 <elliott_> that would be fun slash horrible
21:24:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: The NES is only slightly cheaper than the damned AV Famicom.
21:24:49 <elliott_> sorry, that's just general purpose manufacturers
21:24:57 <pikhq> Or the Twin Famicom.
21:25:07 <elliott_> http://zet.aluzina.org/index.php/Zet_processor cooool
21:25:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, aren't they the same but PAL vs whatever the US used?
21:25:16 <elliott_> This project is quite complex and is in a very early stage of development. Only the 16-bit part (ie. the 8086/80186) is supported, see Zet status for more information. It can boot successfully MS-DOS 6.22, FreeDOS 1.1 and run Microsoft Windows 3.0 and other MS-DOS games.
21:25:27 <Bike> wow, somebody actually went through the effort
21:25:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: They're both NTSC!
21:25:33 <Bike> how's that work legally?
21:25:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, then what is the difference
21:25:53 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex86 linux supports this I guess?
21:26:03 <pikhq> The cartridge slot is physically different.
21:26:15 <elliott_> Bike: well, how did amd work legally? you're allowed to create compatible CPUs
21:26:18 <pikhq> *Electronically* they are utterly the same.
21:26:35 <Bike> elliott_: yeah, that's what i'm wondering, i mean i don't know if amd has to license something or what.
21:26:44 <pikhq> elliott_: AMD has a long-standing license.
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21:26:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, then what is the difference?
21:26:53 <elliott_> pikhq: they didn't originally, did they?
21:27:05 <elliott_> I think as long as you are sufficiently clean-room about it there is not much case for it being infringing.
21:27:17 <pikhq> elliott_: They had a license way back in the day too.
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21:27:29 <pikhq> elliott_: At the time of the IBM PC, IBM required second-source providers for all the chips.
21:27:42 <pikhq> So Intel licensed the 8086 design to other manufacturers, most notably AMD.
21:27:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, well intel probably has a license from AMD for x86-64. Probably since they both depend on each other there, they don't pay each other anything
21:28:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System#mediaviewer/File:NES-Console-Set.jpg vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System#mediaviewer/File:Famicom-Console-Set.jpg
21:28:17 <elliott_> it is a little sad that architectures are things subject to licensing and such
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21:30:34 <pikhq> The freaking Twin Famicom being cheap is just really weird though. It was a very short-lived obscure version of the Famicom that had the Famicom disk system builtin.
21:31:24 <elliott_> I bet the famicom has a nice simple boot process
21:31:31 <pikhq> It starts running code.
21:31:44 <b_jonas> Vorpal: yes, intel and amd have licences both ways, while they still treat each other as enemies
21:31:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, well they are different physically
21:31:52 <b_jonas> and try to screw with each other all the time
21:31:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, region locking?
21:32:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: The NES has a (easily gotten around) lockout chip, which the Famicom does not have.
21:33:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does that chip lock out exactly?
21:33:23 <pikhq> It prevents a cartridge that is not approved by Nintendo from booting on the NES.
21:35:05 <pikhq> Ah, just going over to a Japanese marketplace makes it nutsier.
21:35:07 <fizzie> Z80, when reset by the <overline>RESET</overline> signal, disables interrupts, clears the I and R registers, and starts executing code at address 0000. Oh, and switches the interrupt mode to IM 0 (out of the three existing ones).
21:35:22 <pikhq> I could literally have a Famicom imported from Japan for less than an NES would cost.
21:35:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, Or you could run a cycle perfect emulator I assume
21:36:00 <Vorpal> Which would be cheaper
21:36:05 <pikhq> I'm merely noting that this is a stupidly anomalous market.
21:36:17 <Vorpal> Btw, are there drivers for PS4 controllers on PC yet?
21:36:26 <elliott_> Vorpal: you don't need drivers
21:36:28 <elliott_> it just works, has since day 1
21:36:32 <pikhq> Especially as NES to Famicom adapters are pretty cheap.
21:36:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, even on Windows?
21:36:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: to 0000? seriously?
21:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, nice, a step up from PS3 controllers then
21:36:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, what about for android?
21:36:55 <elliott_> pairing it via bluetooth can be a little tricky since you need to press the buttons in some fussy way but whatever
21:37:01 <elliott_> don't know about android. I think it works via usb on android?
21:37:06 <elliott_> afaik it just presents itself as a very normal usb device
21:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah my PS3 controllers works with android with a special app
21:37:20 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes, I think you usually put ROM down at the start of the address space. I mean, that's where all the zero-page RST instruction go to, too.
21:37:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway, what about the touchpad? That works too?
21:37:37 <Bike> well, i've successfully written an assembly language interpreter in an assembly language, feelin pretty g- *looks at conversation*
21:37:41 <elliott_> you can use it with games designed for xbox controllers if you have a program for that, too
21:37:45 <elliott_> I've played spelunky like that
21:37:56 <elliott_> not as a pointing device last I tried
21:38:02 <elliott_> but probably you can write code that works with it
21:38:03 <Vorpal> I don't like the triggers on the PS3 controller that I have
21:38:07 <elliott_> and pressing it down might do something
21:38:11 <elliott_> but the touchpad is kind of useless and silly.
21:38:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm just surprised because 6502 and the original 86_16 have the boot code near the top of their address space, and that's where itnerrupts in 6502 jumpt too
21:38:50 <b_jonas> which makes sense, because you want the zero page to be a RAM, it's inconvenient to put the bootup ROM there
21:39:02 <b_jonas> you'd have to bank switch it out after bootup, and couldn't write it during
21:39:14 <fizzie> b_jonas: Well, the Z80 doesn't have any cheaper zero-page addressing modes.
21:39:18 <b_jonas> and you don't want to consume zero page space with jump instructiosn anyway
21:39:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, I guess that's the difference
21:39:43 <b_jonas> that explains why 6502 has the interrupt stuff at top
21:40:02 <fizzie> About the only instructions for which the zero page is special are RST 08h, RST 10h, ..., RST 38h which perform a call to $0008, $0010, ..., $0038 which make sense to be (cheaply callable) ROM routines.
21:40:39 <fizzie> Also the "IM 1" interrupt mode has the interrupt handler at $0066.
21:40:50 <zzo38> I think GameBoy (which is a variant of Z80) has a $FFxx addressing mode for a few instructions.
21:41:14 <Vorpal> The TI83+ has a Z80 right?
21:41:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, So I have x86, x86-64, PPC, ARM, MIPS and Z80 in this room then. Not bad.
21:42:20 <Vorpal> Also that switch might have something
21:42:31 <b_jonas> Vorpal: what cpu does your keyboard have?
21:42:31 <Vorpal> My router is MIPS I know, but the switch I have no clue
21:42:44 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I have no idea. It is a MS egronomic one
21:43:01 <b_jonas> Vorpal: what room is that? home? work? work server room?
21:43:21 <fizzie> For the record: IM 0 "handles" interrupts by executing an instruction directly from the data bus; the interrupting device is supposed to put it there. IM 1 was just a reset to $0066. And IM 2 reads byte X from the data bus (theoretically from the device), forms a 16-bit address from the I register (high half) and X, and performs an indirect jump to the address given at that location in memory.
21:43:38 <b_jonas> frankly I have no idea what cpu my nokia mobile phone has
21:43:43 <elliott_> Vorpal: also, PS4 controller is very nice handfeel wise, if you haven't used one
21:43:46 <b_jonas> this pc has x86_64 of course
21:44:07 <fizzie> It's really awkward, because in many real systems (like the TI-8x calculators, and the speccy) you don't really have any control over what's on the data bus, and it doesn't zero the lowest bit (even though the manual says it has to be 0).
21:44:08 <elliott_> PS3 was a little awkward to hold in comparison to e.g. the 360 controller but I prefer the PS4 controller to both
21:44:13 <b_jonas> I have three calculators of which at least one might be 6502 but I don't really know for sure
21:44:27 <elliott_> and they did change the triggers :p
21:44:37 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I have some old computers, including a first generation ibook (PPC and x86). And RPi, a phone and a tablet (ARM). A TI83+ (Z80). A netgear router (MIPS). A modern laptop and a desktop (x86-64)
21:44:48 <fizzie> So you need to fill 257 bytes (with the start position aligned to 256) with e.g. $ab, point I at that area, and put your own interrupt handler in $abab.
21:44:51 <b_jonas> the radio probably has a cpu, but I've no idea what
21:45:13 <elliott_> Vorpal: I think phones/tablets have another CPU hiding on there
21:45:17 <elliott_> maybe another ARM but maybe something else
21:45:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, well that is true, for the phone at least. The tablet is wifi only though
21:45:43 <elliott_> also your computers probably have non-x86 CPUs on the motherboard or cards
21:45:53 <b_jonas> I don't have a camera (other than the phone) in the room right now
21:45:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, indeed, I assume my disk controller runs something for example
21:46:00 <b_jonas> hmm, what else can have a cpu?
21:46:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, but I listed the CPUs I knew of
21:46:08 <elliott_> Vorpal: and network card type stuff I think
21:46:13 <b_jonas> yeah, my keyboard most likely has some microprocessor or microcontroller
21:46:32 <Vorpal> The PS3 controller as well
21:46:34 <b_jonas> probably the mouse too, yes, especially because it's optical
21:46:41 <elliott_> how long until I can get an x86 implanted so that I, too, can have a shitty overcomplicated boot process every time I wake up in the morning
21:47:02 <b_jonas> elliott_: you wouldn't boot up when you wake in the morning
21:47:24 <elliott_> b_jonas: you think I'd want the kind of heat consumption x86s have while under blankets like that?
21:47:41 <b_jonas> I think I still have two old unused mobile phones in the room, and maybe a wristwatch too
21:47:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, my laptop battery charging controller probably has a CPU too. Of some sort
21:47:43 <elliott_> heat consumption would be a very nice thing for a processor to have
21:47:47 <Vorpal> or microcontroller at least
21:48:04 <b_jonas> elliott_: you'd lower the power consumption, but won't need a full cold boot
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21:48:15 <elliott_> b_jonas: you have clearly not seen me in the mornings
21:48:27 <b_jonas> oh come on, you still need a cpu while sleeping
21:48:30 <b_jonas> in case an emergency comes up
21:48:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, try a warm water bottle
21:48:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you have any sort of printer, it probably has a CPU too.
21:48:47 <elliott_> I might as well be running TCCBOOT with how long it takes me to be active
21:48:47 <b_jonas> ok ,maybe you'd have multiple cpus in you and some of them power down so you boot those
21:48:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yes I have a printer with a scanner built in
21:49:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it can copy stuff too
21:49:04 <b_jonas> yes, the printers certainly do, but those are not in the same room
21:49:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, and my monitors have menu systems
21:49:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: The CPUs I know around here (if the basement counts) are really quite similar -- x86 (old PC), x86-64 (several), PPC (two old iBooks), ARM (as you; RPi, phone, tablet), MIPS (three consumer networking devices and a SGI Indy), SPARC (SparcStation 5 in the basement), 8502 (C128), Z80 (C128 and TI-86), and I think that's it. The rest don't advertise themselves.
21:49:33 <Vorpal> b_jonas, plural. I have two in front of me
21:49:39 <b_jonas> yeah. I have only one here
21:49:50 <elliott_> fizzie: I am jealous of your old hardware
21:50:01 <elliott_> more jealous of the mips and sparc than the c128
21:50:16 <fizzie> elliott_: I haven't even booted those old Unixy things in maybe 5 years. *sad*
21:50:17 <b_jonas> if you count other rooms too, there's at least the washing machine
21:50:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, SGI Indy, nice
21:50:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Indy was retired from university classroom use, got it for free.
21:51:02 <fizzie> elliott_: I might be migrating to UK from around the start of next year, incidentally.
21:51:07 <Vorpal> Does an USB memory have a CPU?
21:51:11 <elliott_> fizzie: whoa, like, permanently?
21:51:14 <Vorpal> I mean, I have a 2 GB USB stick here
21:51:19 <b_jonas> Vorpal: probably like a microcontroller at least
21:51:41 <elliott_> fizzie: that's a dangerously critical mass... is it time for an #esoteric meetup
21:51:58 <Vorpal> b_jonas, my god, there is digital logic everywhere
21:52:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: migrating to the UK? nice
21:52:21 <b_jonas> can you tell which part of UK?
21:52:32 <fizzie> elliott_: "For the time being", at least. But it's not entirely certain yet, should be clearer in the next week or two.
21:52:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, what prompted this?
21:52:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: If it happens, it would be London.
21:53:20 <fizzie> A job indeed. I'm getting dangerously close to graduating, had to go find something to do afterwards.
21:53:32 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I assume the desk at work with buttons to raise and lower it has a micro controller, because it moves slower near the bottom and top to prevent a jolt when it hits the stop. And if the power goes you have to reset it by running it to the bottom position and then back to the top, to calibrate it.
21:53:33 <elliott_> fizzie: well, if you happen to sadly end up with no space to store your sgi indy or sparcstation I am graciously willing to relieve you of them
21:53:35 <fizzie> I might end up in Germany, though; applied to two places, both are still doing the rounds.
21:54:10 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I don't have such a desk, but ok. well, the chair at the dentist is probably like that.
21:54:21 <Vorpal> b_jonas, It is a pretty nice desk
21:55:04 <b_jonas> this one is too, I just have to adjust the height mechanically and only when there's nothing on the desk, but I've adjusted the height only once so far.
21:55:13 <fizzie> b_jonas: Also the SparcStation cost something like <100 EUR, there is (was?) a company specializing in old Sun hardware (and "server-class" PCs) who did these "sell something by auction every now and then" deals.
21:55:15 <elliott_> how many UK #esotericers would that make? like five?
21:55:19 <b_jonas> the height adjustment isn't the nice part
21:55:35 <b_jonas> it's that it's custom made in a shape that I can't buy anywhere
21:55:50 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I like switching between sitting and standing for health reasons
21:56:03 <fizzie> I had it actually working as an OpenBSD router box for maybe a year or two, but it was horribly noisy.
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21:56:53 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I used to switch between sitting on a chair and on a ball for a while, but didn't adjust the table for that. now I have that simplified to chair at home and ball at office.
21:57:05 <fizzie> Someone snailmailed me an extra SBus NIC and all.
21:57:26 <Vorpal> I have a comfortable chair at work and a comfortable chair at home too
21:57:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's like the SPARCStation version of PCI.
21:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, any idea how loud water cooling is? Is there a need for fans on the radiator?
21:58:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Except all the devices have Forth-based drivers built in, so you don't need any special OS support necessarily.
21:58:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: depends on how big your radiator is :P
21:58:43 <elliott_> Vorpal: note that the pump makes noise, too
21:58:49 <elliott_> you can certainly make very quiet water cooling setups
21:59:09 <elliott_> I don't think water cooling makes much sense these days though, it's such a fuss compared to just using huge heatsinks and big quiet fans.
21:59:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, one that is quiet, not super-costly and not larger than the computer itself? :P
21:59:30 <elliott_> if you really want a super xxxtreme quiet setup use liquid immersion cooling
21:59:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, that might be a bit too far
21:59:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, I just want a desktop that is as quiet as a idling laptop
21:59:52 <fizzie> Oh, right, I retired the box when I moved to the university campus, because it only had 10M Ethernet, and 100M SBus cards were quite rare/expensive. (Sun switched away from SBus to PCI even for SPARC hardware later.)
22:00:05 <elliott_> I wonder if you could use a house's heating radiators for watercooling
22:00:14 <elliott_> just turn on your computer to warm up the room
22:00:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, I have electric radiators sadly
22:00:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: then probably just buy aftermarket big, quiet fans and gigantic heatsinks for CPU and GPU?
22:00:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, the card could only do 100???
22:01:31 <Vorpal> I read it as the campus having 10M ethernet
22:02:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, right, my case have premade holes for water cooling though
22:02:07 <fizzie> Right, no, the other way around.
22:02:43 <fizzie> These days they have gigabit Ethernet to the apartments, and I'm pretty sure there are no gigabit SBus cards, I doubt the bus even has enough bandwidth for that.
22:03:03 <fizzie> Not that the 75 MHz µSparc or whatever it had would probably deal with that either.
22:03:09 <Vorpal> It is neat to have forth firmware though
22:03:11 <elliott_> fizzie: hope you're prepared for underwhelming internet here btw :p
22:03:42 <fizzie> elliott_: I've heard underwhelming things about it, yes.
22:04:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, Surely there are exceptions? My linode in london runs just fine
22:04:15 <Vorpal> I guess datacenters are better though
22:04:16 <elliott_> Vorpal: I did not know swedes live in data centres
22:04:25 <elliott_> truly let me call up level 3 and ask them for a DSL link
22:04:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, how else did you think we got our good internet speeds?
22:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, You didn't think we all lived in normal houses right?
22:05:05 <Vorpal> Oh we managed to fool you? Still? After how many years!?
22:05:18 <elliott_> no, Vorpal. swedes have not managed to fool the world into thinking they're normal.
22:05:25 <fizzie> elliott_: We only have 10M/10M here at home these days (because it's ~free), and that seems perfectly survivable.
22:05:35 <elliott_> fizzie: oh, yikes, my condolences
22:05:54 <elliott_> (well, you'll certainly get better as far as download goes, but probably not upload)
22:06:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway I have ADSL (24/2), meaning actually 12-14/1.5-1.7
22:06:07 <elliott_> (cable and fibre-to-the-cabinet are pretty widely available and quite decent, though)
22:06:13 <b_jonas> I have sane internet at home, and superb internet at the university, but very sucky internet at the office.
22:06:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, I know people who have 100/100 fibre though
22:06:50 <b_jonas> So sucky I'm considering to just buy a cheap mobile internet account and try to route some of the low bandwidth traffic (like irc access) through that.
22:07:06 <fizzie> They'd bump it up to 100M/10M if we paid a bit extra, but haven't really seen the need for that so much. Can't push very much more than that through dirty old phone lines, anyway. (There's fibre to the basement telecoms room of this building, but the last hundred metres or so are still old copper.)
22:07:36 <b_jonas> yeah, 10M is enough usually if it's reliable enough
22:08:06 <fizzie> (Based on speed tests, it's actually 12M/6M for some reason.)
22:08:14 <Vorpal> b_jonas, not really, Try a family with several people streaming video at the same time
22:08:23 <b_jonas> elliott_: load them in advance, rather than real time streaming, or load time from office or something and take them home on a disk.
22:08:34 <Vorpal> b_jonas, 1080p of course
22:08:39 <fizzie> Well, the 6M part is reasonable, since that's around what the VDSL2 box reports as maximum attainable, but I'm slightly unsure why the download link is faster than what we pay for.
22:08:43 <elliott_> offended that you'd assume I'm talking about streaming :p
22:08:46 <fizzie> Maybe it's compensating.
22:09:16 <b_jonas> Vorpal: if you control the router, it doesn't matter for you what other people stream.
22:09:31 <fizzie> Fun fact: with previous ISP's hardware, the very same VDSL2 modem reported a maximum attainable upload rate somewhere in the 50M-60M range.
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22:09:34 <Vorpal> b_jonas, the router is some crap provided by the ISP
22:09:42 -!- mlilenium_ has left.
22:09:45 <b_jonas> Vorpal: connect another router to it
22:09:49 <Vorpal> b_jonas, "Thomson Speetouch" iirc
22:09:57 <fizzie> I think this new one hasn't enabled the 30a profile or something.
22:09:58 <b_jonas> as in, don't connect anything else directly
22:10:03 <b_jonas> and then you control the second router
22:10:11 <fizzie> elliott_: I may have to ask about ISP opinions at some point, though.
22:10:13 <elliott_> I won't be happy until ten petabits of data beam into my literal microwave skull which boots an x86 processor for every packet that comes in, constantly, never stopping, always, forever
22:10:38 <b_jonas> here I don't have an ISP owned router, only an ISP owned modem that has only a single eth output.
22:10:52 <Vorpal> b_jonas, the modem has a built in router
22:11:00 <b_jonas> (routers. there's more than one actually.)
22:11:08 <elliott_> fizzie: I haven't used http://aaisp.net.uk/ but they're very well-regarded (and will do FTTC/FTTP if available). virgin media do 100 mbit cable and aren't that bad for a big isp; all the other "mainstream" options are very questionable.
22:11:28 <fizzie> I have a formerly ISP-owned router from the previous ISP, because the router provided by the current ISP was randomly flaky.
22:11:55 <elliott_> http://www.zen.co.uk/ too. them and AAISP both do IPv6 unlike practically everyone else :p
22:12:25 <b_jonas> elliott_: as in, IPv6 without having to pay extra for it, right?
22:12:31 <fizzie> OTOH, the new one actually used the passwords you set via the web-interface for the telnet-interface, unlike the old one, into which you have to log in with user "ztedebug", pass "ztedebug". (If you couldn't guess, it's made by ZTE.)
22:13:11 <elliott_> b_jonas: UK internet is just a mess though. government pressuring for mandatory in-your-face "wanna enable a bad internet filter??" options, awful speeds if you're far from the exchange...
22:13:49 <b_jonas> is it worse than Australia?
22:14:21 <fizzie> I guess I should be sleepy too, have to wake up around 7am for a listening test, some people at the university were all "please come help Science and all of humanity".
22:14:24 <elliott_> would you like kicking so you can get to bed? :p
22:14:42 <fizzie> (And it's past 1am here, what with the zones of time.)
22:15:33 <fizzie> It's something to do with research about tinnitus, and they were all "oh no, not at all, don't worry about it" when I checked whether the experiment will, in fact, cause that.
22:16:12 <fizzie> But you get a free "this is how good your hearing is" score out of it, which is maybe interesting. ->
22:16:35 <fizzie> (Unless it's the number "your ears suck", in case it might be more depressing than interesting.)
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23:24:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40599&oldid=40596 * AndoDaan * (+37) Added Burlesque's "Hello, World!"
23:31:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40600&oldid=40599 * AndoDaan * (+2406) Added Verbose's "Hello, World!"
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00:04:12 <Sgeo> nortti: ok, according to wiki on Nemesis Sudio, Nemsis == Master of the Hellish Yard (or at least, it describes events that are part of MAster of the Hellish Yard song)
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00:16:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, I assume [nil isEqual: nil] is NO :/
00:16:30 <Sgeo> I should check
00:19:32 <Sgeo> Well, I got (null) when I tried to NSLog it from http://www.compileonline.com/compile_objective-c_online.php
00:25:30 <Sgeo> Yes. Although I think the thing I was reading said if a BOOL was expected, it would give NO. I assume 'expected' is in terms of casting, though?
00:26:13 <elliott_> presumably because (int) NULL is 0
00:28:55 * Sgeo wonders how OS X compares to something like KDE
00:31:45 <Sgeo> " Essential to [AppleScript's] functionality is the fact that Macintosh applications publish "dictionaries" of addressable objects and operations."
00:32:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, interesting... is DBUS something simiilar on Linux?
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00:43:37 <Bike> molecular steel
00:43:48 <ais523> I think my computer has an annoying habit of being an hour slow
00:43:58 <ais523> I was planning to catch a train to University at about 11pm
00:44:03 <ais523> but it was actually midnight, so I had to walk
00:44:16 <ais523> even worse, this means that the places where I expected to be able to potentially by food were shut
00:44:38 <ais523> so I took a ~20 minute detour to go to a 24 hour supermarket, only to find it wasn't 24 hour any more
00:44:42 <elliott_> ais523: have you heard of daylight savings time?
00:44:48 <ais523> eventually I got food from a petrol station
00:45:04 <ais523> but this has happened on more than one occasion; and the clock updates from ntp
00:45:05 <elliott_> thanks for the information. keep me updated if you stop having heard of it
00:45:21 <elliott_> ais523: I bet a disagreement on whether the hardware clock is UTC or localtime
00:45:29 <elliott_> though maybe it doesn't apply for dst
00:45:36 <ais523> this is one thing I was wondering about, indeed
00:45:37 <elliott_> a problem with windows and linux, that is
00:45:40 <ais523> it'd explain an hour offset
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00:47:28 <ais523> wow these crisps are terrible, even though they're the brand I normally buy
00:49:17 <coppro> ais523: there are only like two brand + flavour combinations I like
00:49:26 <ais523> also the computer here turns itself on and off spontaneously, I'm assuming it's some combination of standby-timeout and wake-on-LAN
00:49:32 <coppro> and a small handful of others that I'll eat when nothing else is available
00:49:34 <ais523> coppro: they're the brand /and/ flavour I normally buy
00:50:00 <ais523> and they're in date (29 11 14, which is a nicely unambiguous date)
00:50:04 <ais523> but the packet is larger than normal
00:50:22 <ais523> wait, not completely ambiguous, it could be the 14th November 2029
00:50:31 <ais523> but I don't think crisps last that long
00:50:54 <ais523> so either they use lower-quality ingredients for the larger packs, or they go off when they're close to the best-before date
00:51:22 * ais523 throws the crisps away
00:51:29 <ais523> they had a negative price anyway due to interaction of special offers
00:51:34 <ais523> I wasn't planning to buy them
00:56:13 <pikhq> ais523: Perhaps it's the 11th of Twentyninember, 29 AD.
00:56:40 <coppro> pikhq: that uses 29 twice
00:56:56 <elliott_> it expired on the 29th of Second February, 2011
00:57:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Polyglot]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40601&oldid=36314 * 90.189.54.149 * (-30)
00:57:14 <coppro> elliott_: I don't think he knows about second february
00:58:54 <nys> * A complete date was specified, so use the other pope.
01:00:26 <nys> it's from the source of the "cal" utility from netbsd
01:01:00 <elliott_> ais523: how dead is agora these days?
01:01:23 <ais523> elliott_: it has a spurt of activity starting last week
01:01:35 <ais523> when comex attempted a dictatorship scam, and I attempted a counterscam
01:01:44 <ais523> that is the only thing going on, though, and it was mostly dead before that
01:04:48 <coppro> nys: wasn't Julian an emperor?
01:05:01 <coppro> ah, yes, it was Julius Caesar himself
01:05:07 <nys> i'm not a calendarist
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01:07:49 <pikhq> coppro: 14 is clearly the ancinet number of repetition.
01:08:07 <pikhq> ... what the what.
01:08:16 <pikhq> Lettuce, yes *lettuce*, is a mild narcotic.
01:09:18 <coppro> wait, we haven't come up with a scary name for it
01:09:35 <coppro> rename it to lactucarium, then ban it
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01:30:21 <elliott_> can you ever do anything useful with a /usr/bin/cd that just runs cd in a shell?
01:31:42 <ais523> a /usr/bin/cd could attach a debugger to its parent and force it to run chdir
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01:32:44 <Jafet> It could leave the new shell running
01:34:49 <ais523> oh wow, this is broken
01:35:00 <ais523> the directory bash thinks I'm in is not the directory I'm actually in
01:35:17 <pikhq> That's pretty easy to do.
01:35:27 <pikhq> The directory bash thinks you're in is the contents of PWD.
01:36:57 <elliott_> pikhq: OS X ships with one :) and I guess FreeBSD at least in the past, going by the copyright attribution on the file
01:37:32 <ais523> how do I get bash to read a file and send it to another process's stdin?
01:37:32 <elliott_> maybe bash stats the dir it's in or something, so you can use it to trigger a side-effect with a FUSE filesystem that waits to be statted
01:37:43 <ais523> doing "command < file" doesn't work, because then the command reads the file
01:37:47 <ais523> not bash, bash just opens the file
01:37:54 <elliott_> ais523: cmd =(cat file), in zsh
01:38:39 <ais523> elliott_: then cat reads it, just checked
01:38:45 <elliott_> oh, you really want bash itself to do it
01:38:56 <Jafet> There's always read
01:39:12 <elliott_> ais523: { <file; } | cmd might work
01:39:28 <elliott_> oh, I guess <file is a zshism...
01:40:03 <ais523> elliott_: I tried that last one in zsh, seems to be run by a process called "pager"
01:40:37 <elliott_> the only pager I know is the one I have to automatically page stuff
01:40:46 <ais523> elliott_: yes, it surprises me too
01:40:59 <ais523> "pager" seems to be a wrapper around less on my system
01:41:07 <ais523> so I guess zsh is using some sort of weird intelligence
01:41:25 <pikhq> Sounds pretty zsh.
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02:36:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RiftocLANG * New user account
02:37:22 <ais523> hmm, that might be not a spambot
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02:42:42 <coppro> I'm glad that levels, so far, has managed to get away with rebasing onto the master branch
02:42:46 <coppro> oh wait, wrong channel
02:59:36 <zzo38> How to make a "block assembler" that it the program instead of specifying absolute addresses, can contain blocks, and the blocks can contain gaps, calculations, inlining of other blocks, preferences of closer blocks, etc, and then can determine how to put them into the binary including overlapping and that stuff?
03:00:40 <zzo38> (O, and also specification of alignment of blocks.)
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04:44:02 <zzo38> As far as I can see, all of the unofficial "NOP immediate" instructions in 6502 seem to do that because the processor is not designed to write to immediates. But if this is the case, why do instructions $C2 and $E2 still take only two cycles without affecting flags?
04:44:39 <Sgeo> re_birthday has a very ... revelation-ary feel, at least the sub I watch/like. "The red chains disappear and said to me 'You will soon be reborn'"
04:44:49 <Sgeo> And a lot of descriptions of what he sees
04:46:41 <zzo38> (According to the pattern of the table, $C2 and $E2 would have been "decrement immediate" and "increment immediate".)
04:47:26 <ais523> zzo38: what should writing to immediates do? modify the command itself in memory?
04:48:24 <zzo38> ais523: Well, it should *try* to modify the command itself in memory; of course if it is ROM it won't work (but if there are side-effects for writing there, it should do that).
04:48:39 <zzo38> Note that VAX does have commands to write to immediate operands.
04:56:41 <fizzie> ais523: How about while read x; do echo "$x"; done < file | cmd ? (Might need extra work to cope with some contents, and while reading should be done by bash, it'd be a subshell and not the original; though reading all to a variable separately should be doable too.)
04:57:12 <ais523> subshell doesn't really work for my idea
04:57:26 <ais523> what I wanted to do was get at the parent of bash from inside bash by reading /proc/self/status
04:58:27 <ais523> wait, would a simple /proc/$$/status work? I think I'm overcomplicating this
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04:58:55 <fizzie> read -d $'\0' x; echo -n "$x" | cmd ...but $$ should work too.
04:59:06 <ais523> yes, it does, I was being stupid
04:59:10 <ais523> still, the original problem was interesting
04:59:47 <fizzie> read -d $'\0' x < file; echo -n "$x" | cmd that is. And won't work with nulls.
05:05:58 <ais523> OK, behold my working implementation of cd: http://sprunge.us/PBNT
05:06:08 <ais523> wait, I should probably be deleting the tempfile
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05:07:34 <fizzie> Couldn't you do that without tempfiles with something like gdb ... -x <(echo ...) ? (May involve exporting some variables for the command in <(...) to use.)
05:09:52 <fizzie> Or I guess just (echo ...; echo ...) | gdb -x - if it takes that, or -x /dev/stdin if not.
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05:11:52 <fizzie> Or did bash copy even unexported variables to subshells, just not to the actual environment of executed commands? I guess it might, sounds like it'd be a too common pitfall if it didn't.
05:12:23 <ais523> I just wanted to get it working; I expected there to be a cleaner way to do it
05:17:33 <elliott_> ais523: this is making me think about a shell where all builtins are implemented externally...
05:17:51 <elliott_> like, if /proc/pid/cwd was a link to a program's current directory, and you could just change it, or something
05:17:59 <elliott_> I guess current directory is a libc abstraction though?
05:18:20 <ais523> well, /proc/pid/cwd is a symlink, so you should be able to retarget it with ln -sf
05:18:31 <ais523> and you could actually implement that in the kernel
05:18:36 <ais523> and no, current directory is kernel, not libc
05:19:18 <elliott_> looks like ln -sf on the cwd just does nothing
05:19:29 <ais523> this becomes obvious when you realise that a process's current directory can be deleted
05:19:43 <elliott_> hmm, what other core builtins of a posix shell are there?
05:19:50 <ais523> I guess, actually, it's less obvious
05:19:57 <ais523> what libc /could/ do is hold a handle to it open
05:20:01 <ais523> and use the *at functions to move around
05:21:33 <elliott_> export, you'd make processes have mutable environs (a major departure, admittedly, that's a libc abstraction right now) and have the shell expose the non-exported variable bindings in /proc/pid, and then just move them around
05:22:58 <elliott_> ais523: it's a shame you can't use that cd to do exploits
05:23:07 <elliott_> since it requires your parent process to run you with the same user anyway
05:23:15 <elliott_> so you can't, like, exploit it in a CGI or whatever
05:23:22 <elliott_> CGIs are often run as the webserver user, I guess
05:23:34 <zzo38> Can a .EXE file be made that can work in DOS, Windows, and also in .NET/Mono?
05:23:45 <elliott_> can you make a CGI that shuts down the parent webserver?
05:23:48 <elliott_> it could just, like, use kill.
05:23:52 <ais523> and really, if you can get a webserver to run gdb, you can probably get it to do anything
05:24:13 <elliott_> ais523: well, being able to write to a .php file is one thing
05:24:17 <elliott_> killing apache with it is another
05:24:19 <ais523> zzo38: you might have problems with the magic numbers in the first few bytes, which are intentionally designed to distinguish between files
05:24:36 <ais523> you could almost certainly make a valid Linux ELF executable that's also a valid Windows COM executable, though
05:24:43 <zzo38> I know that a .EXE file can be designed for both DOS and Windows.
05:24:48 <ais523> elliott_: gdb is a C interpreter
05:25:10 <elliott_> ais523: my point is just, being able to control the webserver process
05:25:11 <zzo38> ais523: Isn't .COM only DOS programs though?
05:25:18 <ais523> thus if you can give arbitrary input to it, you already have arbitrary local exec
05:26:22 <elliott_> ais523: I don't think you are replying to what I am saying
05:26:22 <ais523> I don't understand what you're saying, in that case
05:26:22 <elliott_> my *premise* is that you can run any old code. that's exactly what getting to write to a .php or any other CGI type thing is.
05:26:22 <elliott_> it didn't strike me until now that that might extend to, say, being able to shut down apache because it forks CGIs as the same user.
05:26:22 <zzo38> But, yes I suppose if it can be done a .COM program which is both a valid DOS program and x86 Linux ELF program, can help too, for a different purpose.
05:26:39 <elliott_> but anyway I wasn't thinking that clearly.
05:26:59 <ais523> zzo38: you could create a .COM that writes an executable file in /temp or somewhere like that, then runs it
05:27:25 <fizzie> ais523: ELF files are required to start with "jg 0x47" ("\x7fE"); now I wonder about the initial state of flags. If that is guaranteed to jump, it'd make a polyglot ELF/.com positively trivial to write.
05:27:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, although I am not trying to do that anyways.
05:27:50 <ais523> fizzie: and EXE files have to start MZ or ZM
05:28:05 <ais523> so ELF/EXE is impossible (except that you can rename a .COM file to .EXE and it'll still work, IIRC)
05:28:18 <fizzie> (It probably wouldn't be terribly hard otherwise either, since there's free bytes quite near the start in ELF.)
05:28:33 <zzo38> It has to start with MZ, regardless if it is DOS, Windows, or .NET/Mono, and a .EXE file can be both DOS and Windows.
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05:29:30 <zzo38> Just starting DEBUG on my computer right now I get the following flags: NV UP EI PL NZ NA PO NC I don't know which (if any) are guaranteed, though.
05:29:40 <elliott_> does jg 0x47 do anything exciting?
05:29:59 <elliott_> I was thinking it was intentionally jg
05:30:03 <elliott_> but you were just disassembling for convenience
05:30:19 <fizzie> It would jump into a place which you could easily arrange to be free of ELF headers, that's all.
05:30:22 <elliott_> fizzie: ideally, put an ELF loader starting at 0x47
05:30:28 <elliott_> that loads the executable itself
05:31:09 <elliott_> how does the linux kernel's EFISTUB thing work?
05:31:15 <elliott_> compiled linux kernels are ELF executables, I believe?
05:31:25 <elliott_> but they're also UEFI applications, so they have to be PE/COFF
05:32:44 <ais523> elliott_: I believe it just wraps an ELF in the minimum headers needed to make it look like a PE executable
05:33:16 <elliott_> how does that maintain compatibility with things expecting the kernel to be a regular ELF? I guess there maybe aren't such things
05:33:29 <elliott_> linux doesn't do multiboot, IIRC
05:34:53 <zzo38> I figured out what the rest of the instructions in the ELF header would be too; it seems to be: JG 0147 DEC SP INC SI ADD [BX+DI],AX ADD [BP+DI],AX
05:35:14 <ais523> elliott_: I think the only things that expect that are lilo and grub, and they're generally quite good at changing to fit what Linux needs
05:35:14 <zzo38> (This is what DEBUG tells me it is anyways after I filled in the header according to what Wikipedia says.)
05:35:54 <elliott_> ais523: are you telling me that linux dropped compatibility with all older versions of grub when it gained EFISTUB support?
05:36:13 <ais523> elliott_: I think it was a kernel option whether to become EFI or not
05:36:19 <ais523> and you wouldn't turn it on if you had an old GRUB
05:36:27 <ais523> it was probably off by default (quite possibly still is, in fact)
05:37:07 <elliott_> I don't think what you're saying is plausible. EFISTUB is on in any distro that supports gummiboot, at the least.
05:37:21 <elliott_> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/efi-stub.txt
05:37:40 <elliott_> it looks to me far more like it just makes a dubious PE/COFF and ELF polyglot that is good enough to fool firmware, or something
05:37:56 <ais523> sudo file /boot/vmlinuz-3.13.0-37-generic
05:37:57 <ais523> /boot/vmlinuz-3.13.0-37-generic: x86 boot sector
05:38:21 <elliott_> http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/arch/x86/boot/header.S
05:38:38 <elliott_> file isn't very good at polyglots
05:38:57 <ais523> so my conclusion is, it's not an ELF and never was
05:40:06 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vmlinux#bzImage aha
05:40:06 <Bike> "movw $bugger_off_msg, %si"
05:40:32 <Bike> ".word 0x8664 # x86-64", nice
05:41:10 <elliott_> I like how linux just tells you to fuck off if you use it as a boot sector
05:41:12 <elliott_> I guess it no longer supports that
05:42:00 <ais523> hmm, both the entire PlayStation series, and the GameCube and Wii, use ELF
05:42:12 <ais523> it's weird to think of a games console as using an executable format at all
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05:42:43 <ais523> cartridges always used to work .COM-style, the cartridge /is/ your memory
05:42:45 <ais523> I saw four entries, but one of them's the PSP
05:43:02 <Bike> "# Explicitly enter this as bytes, or the assembler # tries to generate a 3-byte jump here, which causes # everything else to push off to the wrong offset." assembly: too high-level
05:43:23 <ais523> Bike: this sort of thing happens a lot
05:43:39 <ais523> the Linux kernel has a table of efficient NOPs of various byte lengths
05:43:59 <ais523> and Raymond Chen talks about how for a while, the Windows kernel needed specifically 32-bit NOPs in order to work around bugs in early 32-bit processors
05:44:11 <ais523> (you can't just write NOP, it might assemble to the wrong bitwidth)
05:44:43 <Bike> "# Apparently some ancient versions of LILO invoked the kernel with %ss != %ds, which happened to work by accident for the old code. Recalculate the stack pointer if %ss is invalid." jesus
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06:26:32 <b_jonas> ais523: the fun part about efficient nops at various byte length is that the AMD optimization manuals and the Intel optimization manuals recommend different ones.
06:26:46 <b_jonas> as in, all of them work as nops in all cpus, but different ones are recommended as the most efficient.
06:29:27 <b_jonas> elliott_: that's a bit tricky, because the difference may be in the decoder, not the execution when it's already cached
06:29:50 <elliott_> that just means you have to be more evil :p
06:29:52 <b_jonas> I'll just believe the manuals
06:30:03 <b_jonas> why wouldn't I believe them?\
06:30:09 <elliott_> b_jonas: well, I mean to find the best compromise
06:30:33 <elliott_> I don't actually think you're obligated to.
06:30:49 <b_jonas> in code where that kind of micro-optimization really matters, you can just generate different code for amd and intel cpus, and different code for different generations
06:31:08 <b_jonas> if it doesn't matter, then just use one of them
06:33:09 <b_jonas> also, it's not my job, I'm not the one writing compilers
06:34:55 <zzo38> I want to know how to make a compiler that can decide where to place blocks that are allowed to overlap if they contain partially same data, and which may contain gaps and expressions as well.
06:35:50 <zzo38> Is there software like that?
06:36:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: this is about that Z-machine stuff still?
06:37:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: In this case yes, although I also want to know how it can be done in a general purpose way, not only specific to Z-machine.
06:37:38 <zzo38> (O, and I have now released a Z-machine debugging interpreter, in case you want it for any reason.)
06:38:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Today I was talking about the Z-machine with someone.
06:39:34 <zzo38> Zork Zero is YZIP, and this interpreter I made is ZIP. So, Zork Zero will not run on it, but Zork I will work.
06:39:39 <zzo38> (I have tested Zork I.)
06:41:41 <shachaf> But Zork Zero is more fun.
06:42:17 <shachaf> We also talked about Zork: Grand Inquisitor.
06:55:50 <oerjan> @tell AndoDaan <AndoDaan> well, 'minor'... <-- it's not supposed to be used for actual new content.
06:56:29 <oerjan> @tell AndoDaan i tend to err on the side of _not_ marking edits minor.
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07:03:59 <oerjan> @tell coppro <coppro> nys: wasn't Julian an emperor? <-- there _was_ an emperor julian, even if that's not who the term refers to.
07:10:59 <AndoDaan> oerjan: ah, sorry. I should have realized that.
07:12:49 <AndoDaan> In the future I'll be less minor marking happy.
07:14:14 <FreeFull> How many of the months of the year are named after caesars?
07:15:56 <oerjan> augustine was a christian saint
07:16:14 <FreeFull> What was February named after?
07:17:44 <oerjan> technically july and august are _also_ named after some roman god, because the senate declared many of the emperors to be gods
07:18:03 <oerjan> (also julius wasn't technically an emperor)
07:18:35 <oerjan> (also technically a whole bunch of the caesar had all of julius, caesar and augustus in their name. or something like that.)
07:19:18 <oerjan> ok possibly february isn't named after a god
07:19:32 <oerjan> "The Roman month Februarius was named after the Latin term februum, which means purification, via the purification ritual Februa held on February 15 (full moon) in the old lunar Roman calendar."
07:20:23 <oerjan> the roman calendar just gets weirder every time i read about it: "January and February were the last two months to be added to the Roman calendar, since the Romans originally considered winter a monthless period."
07:20:50 <AndoDaan> Augustine sounded pretty in my head :\
07:20:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html
07:21:05 <b_jonas> http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/roman.php in particular
07:21:39 <b_jonas> oerjan: also http://www.xkcd.com/1104/
07:26:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: Of course a lot of the month names are different in slavic languages
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07:30:33 <fizzie> We've got mostly godless months, they're more about agriculture and stuff.
07:30:34 <fizzie> Tammikuu, helmikuu, maaliskuu, huhtikuu, toukokuu, kesäkuu, heinäkuu, elokuu, syyskuu, lokakuu, marraskuu, joulukuu.
07:30:50 <fizzie> Several of those are very unimaginative. June -> kesäkuu -> "summer month".
07:31:06 <fizzie> September -> syyskuu -> "autumn month".
07:31:15 <fizzie> December -> joulukuu -> "Christmas month".
07:33:27 <fizzie> And October -> lokakuu -> approximately "mud month", July -> heinäkuu -> "hay month".
07:35:03 <fizzie> And toukokuu and elokuu are named after the planting and harvesting of wheat.
07:36:14 <fizzie> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/loka#Finnish
07:37:04 <fizzie> Let's see, what's left? January -> tammikuu -> literally "oak month", but AIUI it's originally from some other meaning of 'tammi' somewhat like 'core', because it's the 'core' of winter. February -> helmikuu -> "pearl month", allegedly from pearl-like ice in the trees.
07:38:01 <fizzie> March -> maaliskuu -> unknown etymology, rumoured to be something about how the ground ("maa") gets uncovered when the snow melts.
07:38:39 <fizzie> April -> huhtikuu -> something about forestry related to that time of the year.
07:39:37 <fizzie> November -> marraskuu -> "death month", basically.
07:39:58 <fizzie> From an entirely obsolete/archaic word http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marras#Finnish
07:44:17 <nortti> and toukokuu (May) is something like "seed-planting month"
07:48:45 <elliott_> fizzie doesn't believe in may.
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07:54:06 <shachaf> you can't get more unimaginative than the hebrew system for naming days
07:54:29 <shachaf> sunday-friday are called first day, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, sixth day
07:59:52 <zzo38> If I have one block "ABC???DEF" and one block "A???F" then it can overlap like "ABC?A?DEF" assuming the alignment and areas are OK. What algorithm is usable?
08:23:10 <zzo38> Actually this particular kind of overlapping seems to be less important than just filling in gaps of blocks with other blocks.
08:30:29 <zzo38> However there is still at least the following: [1] A block may have an alignment and offset from that alignment. [2] A block can contain gaps. [3] A block may be restricted in where it can be placed. [4] A block can contain arithmetic on addresses of other blocks.
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08:35:26 <zzo38> How should this be encoded into the computer in a best way that it can be efficiently decided to put in the blocks too?
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08:44:49 <zzo38> O, there is also the case of a block being made up of blocks, so the block can have a container. I suppose this can even be used as a generalization of needing in different areas of the file, too.
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08:49:51 <zzo38> How can a sorting algorithm work on a partial ordering?
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09:27:21 <zzo38> Let me see if Wikipedia describes it
09:32:35 <zzo38> Yes, it looks like the thing I would need.
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10:22:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Viznut * New user account
10:23:18 <fizzie> Huh, I wonder if that's "the" viznut.
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10:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40602&oldid=34737 * Fizzie * (+125) /* IRC */ Advertise the IRC RC feed.
10:28:48 <fizzie> I've been meaning to mention that there for a while now. (Not that it probably sees that many visitors.)
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10:41:31 <oerjan> <zzo38> If I have one block "ABC???DEF" and one block "A???F" then it can overlap like "ABC?A?DEF" assuming the alignment and areas are OK. What algorithm is usable? <-- also as ABC?F?DEF
10:42:20 <oerjan> (not much idea of algorithm, although it reminds me of what i was thinking about optimizing /// interpretation)
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10:47:28 <int-e> oerjan: I swear the "Mail merge" anagolf problem is made to make Haskell look bad.
10:47:44 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, yes, both ways work in that case.
10:47:55 <b_jonas> int-e: that wasn't specifically my intention with the problem
10:47:59 <oerjan> int-e: i haven't looked at it yet
10:48:40 <fizzie> It's kind of similar to the sequence alignment stuff our bioinformaticists deal with, except presumably in this case there's no fuzz factor involved, and the solution would need to exactly fill the criteria. And I'm not sure they deal with that kind of missing data, more like "there can be gaps anywhere".
10:48:46 <int-e> b_jonas: ghc's runtime wants to treat input and output as UTF-8, which fails miserably.
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10:49:11 <b_jonas> int-e: um, but isn't that input and output UTF-8?
10:49:27 <int-e> nope, it seems to be ISO8859-1
10:49:28 <zzo38> oerjan: However, if there is a constraint that the two blocks need to have different addresses for some reason, then it won't work; otherwise it does work.
10:50:38 <int-e> anyway, my submission currently starts with import System.IO;main=mapM(`hSetBinaryMode`True)[stdin,stdout]>> (is there a shorter way to do that?) and it's annoying.
10:50:55 <b_jonas> int-e: it does seems to be utf8 to me
10:51:19 <int-e> b_jonas: submit a cat program, the submission form gives you hex dumps for output and expected output
10:51:25 <fizzie> It does seem to be UTF-8 to me too.
10:51:26 <b_jonas> int-e: it starts with \xc3\x81tv\xc3\xa9teli
10:51:37 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's what I just did
10:51:42 <fizzie> Expected: "\xc3\x81tv\xc3\xa9teli".
10:52:12 <b_jonas> let me try to check if it's all UTF-8
10:53:24 <fizzie> "UTF-8 Unicode text", says file about the entire expected output, after replacing \xNN's.
10:53:37 <int-e> ok, I'm misdiagnosing the problem
10:54:20 <oerjan> perhaps _haskell_ isn't set to utf8 by default in that version?
10:54:30 <fizzie> The anagolf environment seems to use the C locale, if that helps.
10:54:37 <fizzie> Possibly Haskell is locale-aware enough?
10:54:41 <int-e> but in any case I'm getting a.out: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence) for interact id. what's the locale setting there?
10:55:01 <oerjan> in later versions it is locale-aware.
10:55:33 <int-e> ... ("LC_ALL","C")
10:55:38 <b_jonas> oh, so it does that stupid thing like the python stdlib by default where it tries to interpret any file read according to your locale automatically?
10:56:28 <int-e> I do recall that ghc 7.4 was in a particularly bad state concerning encoding issues, 7.6 being slightly better
10:56:56 <oerjan> it's hGetContents that's in trouble, so it's breaking on input
10:57:03 <int-e> but with a C locale, the input *should* be treated as bytes, so what's that error doing there...
10:57:11 <fizzie> The (POSIX) C locale is nominally ASCII, so all the non-ascii bytes are technically invalid?
10:58:14 <int-e> `` echo "äöü" | LC_ALL=C ghc -e 'interact id'
10:58:26 <int-e> oh. <interactive>: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence)
11:00:03 <int-e> fizzie: And that's how ghc treats it (in version 7.8 as well). SIGH.
11:00:10 <fizzie> How does 'exec is denied' interact with something like bash, incidentally? Only shell builtins?
11:00:41 <oerjan> someone said it doesn't apply to shell scripts, but...
11:01:20 <fizzie> If it doesn't, it might easily turn out the case that a shell script that calls GHC after setting locale would be shorter than a "Haskell" solution, which is patently silly.
11:01:29 <b_jonas> well, I'm sorry if this causes you trouble with Haskell.
11:09:15 <mroman_> which is the reason you can't embed binary stuff in burlesque programs on anagol
11:09:29 <mroman_> that probably wouldn't work with utf8 as well
11:10:47 <mroman_> anyway you can't embed binary stuff in Burlesque :)
11:11:09 <oerjan> > map length["`hSetBinaryMode`True","`hSetEncoding`utf8"]
11:11:19 <oerjan> int-e: slight improvement
11:14:05 <int-e> > length "import System.IO;main=mapM(`hSetEncoding`utf8)[stdin,stdout]>>"
11:14:16 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, the "exec is denied" doesn't apply to shell scripts. You are allowed to look at the codes for the submission forms (it is all written in Ruby) on Github to see how it is working.
11:16:02 <zzo38> (This also shows how the scoring for special problems is decided.)
11:18:28 <int-e> > length "LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 ghc -e 'let in'"
11:23:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Have you been Haskell-golfing so much that you omit spaces e.g. between length and the [, or after the , in the list, by default?
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12:43:12 <Jafet> oerjan needs to golf more, so that he automatically writes map as <$>.
12:43:35 <mroman_> You may need an import for <$>
12:43:42 <oerjan> Jafet: um what mroman_ said
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13:13:23 <fizzie> oerjan: You still have over three hours to beat int-e on count the overlap hth
13:17:03 <fizzie> I was thinking of doing a Befunge-98 solution that'd do it "manually" by actually drawing the squares in some empty region of the fungespace e.g. by doing *3, *5 and *7 for a, b, c and then counting overlaps by summing how many cells are zero %15, %21, %35 and %105, but... didn't.
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13:27:35 <zzo38> I will tell you something about Z-machine instruction encoding: If it is using EXT encoding, and if y means the byte telling the operand types, then __builtin_popcount(255&~y) is calculating how many bytes the operands take up.
13:31:32 <mroman_> I would just add a note of pedantry that may be important to some people: it's not correct to say that xs:int "is" a signed 32-bit integer. That form of words implies an implementation in memory (or registers, etc) within a binary digital computer. XML is character-based and would implement the maximum 32-bit signed value as "2147483647" (my quotes, of course), which is a lot more than 32 bits! "
13:31:55 <lambdabot> ‘lex’ (imported from Prelude), ‘lens’ (imported from Control.Lens)
13:33:02 <zzo38> Perhaps it means it is converted into at least a signed 32-bit integer?
13:33:38 <zzo38> (Although an implementation could treat it differently, such as to avoid converting it at all, I suppose)
13:35:12 <mroman_> I think his point is, that in XML 2147483647 isn't encoded as 32bit
13:35:13 <oerjan> <fizzie> oerjan: You still have over three hours to beat int-e on count the overlap hth <-- i don't really have any good idea that could work, i think.
13:35:52 <fizzie> I don't think that's what the comment said at all, it just objected to the word "is".
13:35:56 <mroman_> so technically 12 isn't an 8bit value
13:36:08 <fizzie> Presumably "xs:int has the range of a 32-bit signed integer" would have been just fine.
13:36:31 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, probably that would have helped.
13:37:22 <mroman_> [Definition:] int is ·derived· from long by setting the value of ·maxInclusive· to be 2147483647 and ·minInclusive· to be -2147483648. The ·base type· of int is long.
13:37:46 <fizzie> What's the definition of long, then?
13:38:02 <mroman_> [Definition:] long is ·derived· from integer by setting the value of ·maxInclusive· to be 9223372036854775807 and ·minInclusive· to be -9223372036854775808. The ·base type· of long is integer.
13:38:03 <oerjan> fizzie: i also had the idea of making an explicit list of coordinates, but i am suspected my current solution is better than that (of course, if that's how int-e beat me...) and my actual problem is with munging I/O.
13:38:09 <mroman_> But what's the defintion of integer then?
13:38:19 <mroman_> [Definition:] integer is ·derived· from decimal by fixing the value of ·fractionDigits· to be 0 and disallowing the trailing decimal point. This results in the standard mathematical concept of the integer numbers. The ·value space· of integer is the infinite set {...,-2,-1,0,1,2,...}. The ·base type· of integer is decimal.
13:38:35 <fizzie> mroman_: It's types all the way down!
13:38:48 <mroman_> but what's the definition of decimal then?
13:38:57 <mroman_> [Definition:] decimal represents a subset of the real numbers, which can be represented by decimal numerals. The ·value space· of decimal is the set of numbers that can be obtained by dividing an integer by a non-negative power of ten, i.e., expressible as i / 10n where i and n are integers and n ≥ 0. Precision is not reflected in this value space; the number 2.0 is not distinct from the number 2.00. The order relation on decimal is the order relat
13:39:32 <fizzie> That got cut off: "-- is the order relat".
13:39:57 <mroman_> the only link to go here is "value space"
13:40:13 <fizzie> It doesn't define what "decimal numerals" are. :/
13:40:32 <fizzie> oerjan: You are also a suspect, if that helps.
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13:42:24 <mroman_> If it looks like an int, swis like an int and quacks like an int, then it probably is an integer.
13:42:57 <fizzie> Software interrupts like an int.
13:43:17 <fizzie> (SWI is an ARM instruction.)
13:43:50 <Jafet> What if ISWIM as a duck
13:44:55 <mroman_> there's also negativeInteger
13:45:00 <mroman_> which derives from nonPositiveInteger
13:46:19 <fizzie> Does the positiveInteger derive from nonNegativeInteger?
13:46:40 <fizzie> Good, at least it's consistent.
13:48:15 <fizzie> I think it should also include a separate zeroInteger type that would have a value space of 0.
13:48:51 <mroman_> you can define a simpleType zeroInteger
13:49:05 <mroman_> using <assertion test='$value eq 0'/>
13:49:44 <fizzie> Would that also allow "00" like I guess integer does?
13:50:13 <mroman_> but you can also add a <pattern>
13:50:17 <J_Arcane> (kun (ja (näenko? i) (uimako? i) (vaakkuko? i)) (asettaa! i 'ankka))
13:50:27 <mroman_> <pattern value="0"/> should work
13:51:29 <mroman_> Can you define a regex that checks if a regex is a valid regex?
13:53:08 <fizzie> (kun (ja (näyttääkö? i) (uiko? i) (vaakkuuko? i)) (aseta! i 'ankka)), more like.
13:54:28 <fizzie> It's (when (and (looks? i) (swims? i) (quacks? i)) (set! i 'duck)) translated.
13:56:05 <fizzie> Possibly "jos" for "if", though it might not be all 1:1 mappings.
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14:02:22 <oerjan> yay i managed to tie henkma on http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?A014062
14:03:02 <oerjan> i wonder if he found the same cheat i did
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14:14:07 <oerjan> i used a way to do combinations that only works up to a limited answer length
14:15:27 <oerjan> and that is basically applying newton's binomial formula in reverse
14:16:20 <oerjan> (the answer limit can be varied; i used e=9^40 because it was the highest number i could define that shortly)
14:16:45 <oerjan> if i could define a large enough e shorter, i could beat henkma.
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14:17:00 <oerjan> but i doubt that's possible.
14:28:44 <J_Arcane> https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/521661553968693248
14:39:04 <J_Arcane> For some reason I was thinking in terms of the IO ().
14:42:18 <coppro> lambdabot: give me the goods
14:42:21 <oerjan> hm the first element of the output in http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Primey+Factory+EX is actually ill defined
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15:02:51 <int-e> oerjan: yes indeed
15:03:27 <oerjan> my tying solution at the moment has mapM print$1: in it :P
15:03:51 <int-e> yeah I think that's the way to go
15:05:38 <int-e> oh you got A014062
15:06:27 <oerjan> i gave some spoilers above
15:06:36 <oerjan> (not actual code, but)
15:08:04 <oerjan> i suppose there's no real win to be had by trying to use 99 instead of 100 here.
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15:16:27 <int-e> Ah, you spoiled it well.
15:16:49 <oerjan> sorry, couldn't resist Phantom_Hoover
15:17:09 <oerjan> does that mean you got it too?
15:18:10 <int-e> And I should've thought of that.
15:18:21 <lambdabot> [1,11,121,1331,14641,161051,1771561,19487171,214358881,2357947691,2593742460...
15:20:05 <int-e> but no, I was stuck doing (n*n-n+1)*...*(n*n)/(1*...*n)
15:21:08 <oerjan> yeah i tried some variations on that
15:21:21 <int-e> 65 characters is what I had
15:22:52 <int-e> There's another cheat I'd like to know, http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?prime+numbers ... I'm at 65 characters there, too, and two people did it in 20.
15:23:24 <int-e> (the mod(2^n-2)n<1 trick doesn't cut it, because one needs a test that works up to 541)
15:25:35 <int-e> So I believe there's another neat, most likely limited, primality test that's only 3 characters longer, but as usualy there may still be something non-optimal about the remaining code.
15:25:54 <int-e> (how did I do that, I don't know)
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15:50:17 <b_jonas> I mean, I should apply the regex solution to that
15:50:21 <b_jonas> to see how long it comes out
15:51:02 <int-e> 45 characters? ;-)
15:51:45 <int-e> (I don't know, but it's the only really short primality test in perl that I'm aware of)
15:51:49 <b_jonas> I could try a hardcoded bitmask
15:52:21 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not really that much shorter than a trial division, is it now?
15:53:38 <b_jonas> guess I'll have to try both
15:54:03 <int-e> scnr: "A double bogey isn't really that many more shots than par, is it now?"
15:56:40 <b_jonas> oh come on, isn't the test itself just something like !grep$p%$_<1,2..$p-1
15:57:10 <b_jonas> only problem is, you can't put the prime to test in $_ for that
16:00:04 <b_jonas> well, I'll just have to try
16:00:19 <b_jonas> 45 chars seems very short of course. there are real golfers here.
16:02:29 <zzo38> One golf challenge that confused me a bit is the one to print "Success". I could figure out how to print it on stderr, but that doesn't count.
16:08:22 <int-e> haha, good: bash: php: command not found
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16:12:03 <int-e> in fact, stderr doesn't count at all. you can produce garbage on stderr and still get accepted.
16:13:55 <fizzie> All the DOS COM programs I've seen there have exited with to some sort of dosemu error message, since it's shorter to end with some processor exception than it is to do a proper int 21h exit.
16:14:01 <b_jonas> int-e: sure. and that's useful too, otherwise you'd sometimes have to ask perl to omit its stupid "mandatory" warnings
16:14:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? it's a com file, you only have to do a far return to exit
16:14:39 <b_jonas> it might still be shorter to not do anything
16:14:55 <int-e> b_jonas: yes, I assumed that was the reason. for Haskell it means that you can abort the program by a pattern match failure if that's shorter
16:14:58 <int-e> which is kind of nasty.
16:15:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: I didn't know you can do ret to exit from com.
16:15:54 <fizzie> Can't say I've ever thought about it, really.
16:16:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Well, you can!
16:16:36 <fizzie> Of course every byte counts, so that might explain why they all fail.
16:16:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: of course, it might not work if the golf does something that breaks it before that, like not restoring the stack pointer, or smashing that area of the stack
16:17:01 <int-e> fizzie: it's a CP/M thing.
16:17:04 <zzo38> Also in .COM, if you specify a drive letter on a command line parameter, then the drive letter will be passed in a register.
16:17:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: a register? I thought it's only in a byte of the PSP
16:18:04 <zzo38> (I have written a program for adjusting the palette which used this)
16:18:09 <b_jonas> (the PSP being the 256 byte long metadata segment DOS craetes for each program, of which 128 bytes are the command line parameters)
16:18:31 <zzo38> b_jonas: Actually it is passed in a register too, but only if it is a drive letter.
16:18:49 <zzo38> (It doesn't have to be a valid drive letter, but you do need to put a letter followed by a colon.)
16:18:57 <int-e> IIRC also the FCB records are filled in from the first two arguments
16:19:23 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, it does that too, so that you can easily do file I/O.
16:25:15 <int-e> right, drive letters are stored in AX, SP=0xFFFE and [FFFE]=0 (unless you're very short on memory). more dodgy assumptions: BX is zero, CX is 0x00FF, SI=0x0100, DI=0xFFFE, BP=0x09?? (I've read an article a while ago *somewhere* why this one is quite reliable in MS-DOS. Not so much in clones.)
16:25:58 <zzo38> Does it work on FreeDOS? If not, should it be fixed?
16:27:33 <int-e> And some intros assume that PSP word 1 is 0xA000, when they do thingf like les dx,[bx] in order to access the VGA graphics memory via es:
16:28:50 <int-e> (some even manage to make use of the resulting dx=0x20CD value)
16:29:13 <b_jonas> int-e: on anagolf, you can assume that some of these things are deterministic, and find out their values easily
16:29:21 <int-e> And I don't know how much of this is true for Freedos. I would actually expect that it works.
16:29:40 <zzo38> And if it doesn't work, then you should fix it please.
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16:31:27 <b_jonas> for anagolf purposes, does perl really not have a built-in variable with a one-character name that starts with a numeric value of 1
16:31:36 <b_jonas> or is it only that I can't find that variable?
16:32:21 <b_jonas> apparently there is no such thing
16:33:34 <int-e> ok, oerjan has the same basic formula for "count the overlap" but completely different implementation for most of the rest... interesting.
16:37:01 <int-e> @tell oerjan you may be interested in comparing your program to the second to the second (third, chronologically) version in http://sprunge.us/aRFh - there's some resemblence.
16:37:34 <b_jonas> there's a variable starting at 2, at 256, at the current time, at the pid, at the uid and gid and euid and egid which are 1000 on anagolf, at 60, and at 5.014002
16:37:46 <b_jonas> and there's one that gives an error when numified (scary)
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16:47:37 <int-e> @tell oerjan but I all my versions use unwords, and all but the very first compute a list of rectangles from the strings ["ab","ac","bc","abc"], so there's no obvious smaller combination of our programs. tricky :)
16:50:29 <fizzie> Heh, I wrote a mostly unoptimized Z80 mail merge, and it's three bytes shorter than the Perl.
16:50:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it's quite short
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16:51:16 <fizzie> All those one-byte instructions.
16:51:45 <b_jonas> incidentally, will anagol want to add ruby 2.1 in the future?
16:51:58 <b_jonas> as a separate language from ruby 1.8 I mean
16:52:32 <fizzie> Incidentally, is it a bit of a shame this channel is turning into some sort of #anagol-adjunct? :)
16:53:21 <int-e> fizzie: it's a change from the #lens-exile and #haskell-sidechannel that it usually is :P
16:53:42 <elliott_> fizzie: I see you sourced a replacement finn
16:55:11 <fizzie> elliott_: If you mean J_Arcane, I had nothing to do with that, but it's certainly very coincidental.
16:55:26 <elliott_> fizzie: no, I mean the one from today :p
16:55:52 <elliott_> so many new finns even the finns can't keep track of them
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16:55:57 <fizzie> elliott_: Oh, right, yes; but I had nothing to do with that either, as far as I know!
16:56:30 <fizzie> (And I won't be hearing anything certain about my eventual destination until maybe Friday or next week, so it's not entirely sure a replacement is even necessary.)
16:56:30 <elliott_> fizzie: right. there is no finnish cabal and you haven't been using your shady demoscene connections behind the curtain. you're an honest person & I believe you
16:56:46 <elliott_> well, you know what they say, the more finns the better (only finnish people say this)
16:57:17 <fizzie> I assure you, I was as surprised as $anyone about this.
16:57:27 <fizzie> I can only assume we had some good SEO keywords in the esowiki or something.
16:57:52 <elliott_> pfft, propping up your own wiki administration skills too
16:58:28 <elliott_> "Any changes to this wiki are automatically announced on the channel, which makes it a nice way to keep track of what's new." this definition of "nice" needs to take into account seeing every other message here too
16:59:15 <zzo38> And if you don't like it you can turn it off like I have done, too.
16:59:21 <fizzie> It's the "accurate" sense of the word "nice".
16:59:54 <elliott_> zzo38: all the other messages? yes I suppose you could, the channel would be pretty nice then
17:00:31 <zzo38> Well, you can filter out whatever messages you want, including all of them if you want. (Some IRC servers even have a command to filter out all channel messages)
17:01:11 <zzo38> Including this one; put user mode +D to ignore all channel messages.
17:02:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrybblePusher]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40603 * Viznut * (+4957) Created page with "'''TrybblePusher''' is a virtual machine designed (but not yet implemented) by [[user:viznut]] in 2014. It is superficially similar to [[BytePusher]] but operates on trybbles ..."
17:03:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Viznut]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40604 * Viznut * (+109) Created page with "[http://www.pelulamu.net/ibniz/|IBNIZ] [[TrybblePusher]] [http://countecomplex.blogspot.com|Countercomplex]"
17:04:39 <elliott_> viznut: external links are [url text] without the |, btw; mediawiki syntax is a mess
17:04:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Viznut]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40605&oldid=40604 * Viznut * (+0)
17:06:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrybblePusher]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40606&oldid=40603 * Viznut * (+25)
17:06:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrybblePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40607&oldid=40606 * Viznut * (-36)
17:08:18 <viznut> yeah, it seems it was too much time before i used mediawiki
17:09:00 <elliott_> better, it means you've been free of it long enough to forget
17:12:33 <viznut> now that i'm on it, i might to create the ibniz article as well
17:13:42 <elliott_> I'm surprised nobody had written an article on it already
17:16:29 <b_jonas> wait, does the z80 have a built-in way to mask interrupts, like the 6502 and the 8086 does? it doesn't have the 8086 interrupt mask flag, but maybe some other way?
17:17:33 <viznut> i thought DI/EI are the z80 instructions to disable/enable interrupts
17:18:16 <viznut> it seems that the wiki lacks a category for virtual machines as well
17:18:48 <elliott_> there is [[Category:Finite state automata]], btw
17:20:52 <viznut> i somehow failed to add that category
17:21:57 <elliott_> it's paid DLC only (actually because "Cateogry")
17:23:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: It has two "interrupt flip-flops", IFF1 and IFF2. DI and EI set/reset both, IFF1 controls whether maskable interrupts are handled, and IFF1 is copied to IFF2 when an NMI occurs (and a RETN instruction copies it back from IFF2 to IFF1).
17:25:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see. is there a way to read these?
17:25:44 <fizzie> b_jonas: As a rather curious minor feature, IFF2 is also copied to the parity flag whenever "ld a, i" or "ld a, r" is executed. I was trying to use di/ei to save some semi-permanent state in IFF2 on anagolf (under the assumption that there will be no interrupts anyway), but it ended up not saving any bytes because the only way to test IFF2 (a) takes two bytes and (b) clobbers a.
17:25:46 <b_jonas> as in, for saving and restoring
17:26:18 <fizzie> I don't think there's any way to read IFF1 directly, but it's supposed to be equal to IFF2 everywhere except when an active NMI is being handled.
17:26:31 <b_jonas> well, that should be enough
17:26:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IBNIZ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40608 * Viznut * (+397) Created page with "'''IBNIZ''' (Ideally Bare Numeric Impression giZmo) is a stack-based audiovisual virtual machine and its related programming language created by [[user:viznut]] in 2011. [htt..."
17:27:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Viznut]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40609&oldid=40605 * Viznut * (-29)
17:27:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrybblePusher]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40610&oldid=40607 * Viznut * (+35)
17:28:51 <fizzie> (And in the NMI handler IFF1 is 0 anyway, since maskable interrupts are automatically disabled when an NMI is acknowledged, after copying the old value to IFF2, so probably providing a way to test IFF2 is enough.)
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17:29:53 <b_jonas> sure, I'm mostly thinking (outside of golf) on what a function that wants to temporarily disable interrupts but might be called from an interrupt routine would have to do
17:30:11 <b_jonas> the NMI is irrelevant, you could just say the NMI routine shouldn't call anything like that
17:30:56 <fizzie> In that case I guess just a fixed DI and EI-if-IFF2-was-1-before-DI sounds fine.
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17:31:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but that comes out a bit long and slow then, because you have to save A and stuff
17:31:45 <b_jonas> actually that doesn't matter
17:31:51 <b_jonas> you probably have to save A in such a function anyway
17:32:27 <fizzie> The rst {0,1,2,3}{0,8}h instructions seem pretty handy for golfing, but also have this effect of "discretizing" the solutions, because you need to align whatever you want to call at an 8-byte boundary.
17:32:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, you can't expect too much freedom from one byte long instructions
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18:07:24 <fizzie> Well, would you look at that, teebee's Burlesque A006520 was in fact the kind of #sL[-based thing I was trying, I just completely missed the 256g_ thing in place of my J0j.-&& -- I just made a slow-but-fast-enough 20B based on that.
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18:11:43 <fizzie> Hadn't come across the builtin, and for some reason didn't think to look for it.
18:12:22 <int-e> same in the Haskell solution? :)
18:13:52 <int-e> @tell oerjan henkma's A006520 solution comes as a surprise to me, I didn't think of putting the gcd inside the scanl.
18:14:13 <J_Arcane> omg wat https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu/tree/master
18:14:34 <J_Arcane> "An AVR Emulator written in pure LaTeX"
18:15:10 <fizzie> int-e: That's just what I wrote in Forth except translated to Haskell, I didn't think about it very seriously. Though I distinctly recall looking at the Hackage Prelude documentation, seeing gcd, going "hmm, there's gcd", with no bells ringing.
18:15:13 <zzo38> Someone has written a BASIC interpreter in TeX.
18:16:35 <zzo38> I have also written Easter calculation (and many other date calculations) in TeX, and even chess game.
18:16:49 <J_Arcane> I may've seen your chess game.
18:17:28 <zzo38> TeX is a really powerful typesetting system, and is also probably the most portable programming language which can work same way in any computer and in past and future too.
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18:21:11 <zzo38> J_Arcane: Have you? It can do many chess variants too.
18:23:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was thinking about that kind of portability at one point, and wrote a list
18:24:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: here's my list: http://dpaste.com/3WN0DVW
18:25:13 <b_jonas> hmm, that list is completely broken
18:25:17 <b_jonas> it doesn't even mention javascript in browsers
18:25:56 <b_jonas> only it says "firefox" instad of javascript
18:26:05 <J_Arcane> zzo38: After I switched to LyX for my publishing I went poring through the repos for game-related stuff, and found several whole games implemented in pure LaTeX.
18:26:15 <J_Arcane> I think there was even some kind of text adventure system.
18:26:53 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose there certainly could be.
18:28:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: Note that Plain TeX is portable to all systems that have it. Any Plain TeX file can be used in even future and past systems; the one thing that can go wrong is running out of memory, which is a fatal error.
18:28:42 <zzo38> (The amount of memory available is implementation-dependent.)
18:29:04 <b_jonas> it is quite portable indeed
18:29:23 <zzo38> So it has difference in that way from the other things listed (except for Plain METAFONT, which has the same portability).
18:31:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but of course you can write quite past and future portable programs in C too if you're careful. and latex is somewhat past and future compatible too.
18:31:30 <b_jonas> but yes, plain tex is probably the most portable among these
18:34:50 <b_jonas> well, technically, plain metafont is probably slightly more portable than plain text, but that's minimal, and it's also a worse language because of the very bad IO support.
18:36:27 <J_Arcane> But could you write a C in TeX? :D
18:37:23 <b_jonas> oh, you mean a C interpreter?
18:38:11 <b_jonas> probably not in TeX only, because of the lack of some IO stuff, plus it would be technically quite difficult to make it efficient, and you'd probably not be able to run C programs that use more than very little memory
18:39:34 <J_Arcane> Sounds about right. The clock rate of that Latex emulator is in the KHz after all.
18:40:20 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: BASIC is a bit easier if you don't do many pointer stuff, though array access might still cause difficulties
18:40:34 <tromp> hmm, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations lacks a TeX implemention?!
18:40:58 <zzo38> I also wrote this TeX program: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
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18:41:07 <J_Arcane> True. Pointers are tricky beasties; probably the same reason why the Racket C #lang is only a toy/demonstration version.
18:41:16 <b_jonas> heh, KHz range brings me back some memories
18:41:46 <zzo38> Can you understand this program?
18:42:15 <J_Arcane> FizzBuzz using the date as an incrementer?
18:42:22 <b_jonas> that's a simple hardware cpu with 128 memory, and the webpage says http://www.vttoth.com/CMS/index.php/projects/47 which says "this machine has less than one tenth of a percent of the speed ... of the memory of a modern [in like 2000] Pentium system"
18:42:45 <b_jonas> I wrote an emulator in ruby, and decided that if that hw is only 1/1000 slower than a computer, my emulator is probably slower
18:42:50 <quintopia> fizzie: can you make you blsq program output abacabadabacaba... instead?
18:42:58 <b_jonas> but it turns out my emulator is probabyl faster, that 1/1000 is just an understatement
18:43:03 <zzo38> J_Arcane: It does reuse that register in fact, as well as some other registers previously used for other purpose.
18:43:06 <b_jonas> that hardware is actually much slower
18:43:33 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: Seeing a 4-bit CPU makes me think of the multiple CPUs built in Powder Toy.
18:43:54 <J_Arcane> You want to try slow, try emulating individual electrons/light-pulses one at a time in a particle physics engine. :D
18:44:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, I don't know what \day does
18:44:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is just a built-in count register, initialized with the current day of the month (although this program reinitializes it).
18:46:42 <b_jonas> and you use \mit as another such register. ouch
18:46:57 <b_jonas> do these like have the shortest names or something?
18:47:00 <zzo38> Actually, \mit isn't a register.
18:47:08 <b_jonas> but it's still a count-like thing
18:47:33 <b_jonas> well, they're certainly shorter than \finalhyphendemerits
18:47:50 <zzo38> No, it isn't. It is used to change the current font family in math mode (the font won't change if it isn't in math mode).
18:49:01 <b_jonas> um yes, but so? can't you still set it a count, as long as it's between 0 and 16?
18:49:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JAPV well that's just great
18:49:17 <zzo38> Perhaps you mean the \fam register?
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18:49:59 <b_jonas> now I have to understand the \ifvmode part, that's probabyl some trick
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18:50:42 <zzo38> The \endgraf means the same as \par (or a blank line), but \par cannot be used here.
18:50:44 <b_jonas> you don't seem to output anything anywere, so what changes away from vertical mode?
18:51:28 <b_jonas> oh right, the Fizz and Buzz are output
18:51:44 <b_jonas> so they change to horizontal mode
18:51:58 <b_jonas> so this will output to successive lines in the dvi output
18:52:36 <b_jonas> 100 lines, that probably needs more than one page, but no problem
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18:53:34 <b_jonas> and why is the \newcount worth? is there no other short enough register, when it appears three times?
18:53:53 <b_jonas> thanks, this is an interesting piece of code
18:57:18 <zzo38> Another hack I have seen somewhere else, is if you want to cancel a brace that comes after a macro expansion, you can write: \romannumeral-`
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19:07:57 <zzo38> I have read some people wanted multiple kind of marks (apparently Knuth wanted to add it in, but didn't); I have managed to imitate having multiple kind of marks by using insertions; these insertions contain only marks and page breaks.
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20:06:49 <zzo38> O, this calendar program I did with TeX is implementing not only the Julian and Gregorian calendar, but also Discordian. You can assign special days using such specifications as "\Discord72.", "\Easter \Before\Fri", "\First\Mon\Sep", "\Oct31", "\Easter \Minus46", "\May24 \BeforeOn\Mon", etc. Ordinal dates are also implemented.
20:08:55 <zzo38> There are many presets implemented: \DiscordianTraditional \DiscordianModern \CanadaNationwideStatutoryHolidays \CanadaCommon \Alberta \BritishColumbia \Manitoba \NorthwestTerritories \Nunavut \Ontario \PrinceEdwardIsland \Saskatchewan \Yukon \UnitedStates \Japan \EnglishNames \CharlemagneNames \GermanNames \JulianNames \OldTurkmenNames \NewTurkmenNames \OldZorkNames \NewZorkNames
20:09:21 <boily> there are multiple discordian calendars?
20:09:57 <boily> (and not \Quebec???)
20:10:13 <zzo38> I forgot Quebec, as well as a number of other things, sorry.
20:10:43 <zzo38> If I know the special days for Quebec I should put it in.
20:12:29 <zzo38> The \DiscordianModern command just adds some more special days on to \DiscordianTraditional, though. However you can specify the Julian-based or Gregorian-based Discordian calendar by typing \julian or \gregorian and then type \discordian.
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20:15:15 <boily> I don't think we have that many special days relatively to the other provinces and territories. Fête des Patriotes or something, maybe?
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20:15:58 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Patriots%27_Day
20:16:43 <boily> (and obviously the St-Jean on June 24.)
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20:24:20 <zzo38> How can you hand-code in hex codes the .EXE program that can read the first byte from stdin and then to terminate immediately with that value as the exit code? Also, how to do on Linux with ELF?
20:25:16 <fizzie> The well-known http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html might help in the latter, though it only terminates with a hardcoded value by default.
20:26:35 <fizzie> I mean, you can always assemble, and then hexdump. If you for philosophical reasons want to avoid an assembler, that'd be another thing.
20:27:02 <zzo38> If it is a really small program then probably you don't need an assembler, necessarily.
20:33:24 <fizzie> For x86-32 Linux, I think something like http://sprunge.us/POMA would work as the body of the program.
20:33:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: exe? a com program is much easier
20:34:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: But, I want to write Windows program; if it is COM then it doesn't work in 64-bit Windows.
20:35:25 <zzo38> fizzie: Can you explain what these system calls are meaning in here?
20:36:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok. I don't really know much about how exe header works, I've only ever made one with an assembler or compiler.
20:36:35 <b_jonas> hmm, I may have a link somehow though
20:36:36 <fizzie> First one is a 'read' (eax=3) from fd 0 (ebx=3) to memory (pointed by ecx) of length 1 (edx=1), and the second one is a 'exit' (eax=1) with the exit code in ebx.
20:37:17 <fizzie> (You could probably omit the "push eax" and do "mov bl, [esp]" instead just fine.)
20:37:29 <b_jonas> there was a really good webpage with lots of information about programming dos, including exe
20:37:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, isn't that a dead herring? you can't run DOS 16-bit real mode exes either on 64-bit windows
20:38:02 <b_jonas> COM vs EXE doesn't matter, it's real vs protected mode that does
20:38:09 <zzo38> b_jonas: I know, but I want to make a Windows executable file
20:38:29 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/SXeg -- seems to work.
20:38:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's because of a CPU limitation: x86_64 long mode doesn't do virtual 8086 mode (real mode like segments) so it has to be emulated
20:38:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: what kind? a 16 bit or 32 bit or 64 bit one?
20:40:08 <b_jonas> I definitely don't know how those work, I've only ever created such executables with compilers, and don't know how the starup works
20:40:48 <fizzie> I've written (32-bit Windows PE) EXE headers manually, based on resources in the internet, but didn't keep any links around.
20:40:49 <b_jonas> (I don't know about 16 bit or 64 bit either)
20:41:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: did you write full working exes that way, possibly using an assembler?
20:41:31 <fizzie> b_jonas: I forget the details. It was some sort of an exe-mangler tool I wrote.
20:42:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: Some sort of packer-encrypter dealie, you know, that sort of stuff.
20:42:51 <fizzie> Windows is rather unfriendlier when it comes to raw syscalls, you're really supposed to call functions from DLLs instead, but that's possibly not a problem.
20:43:00 <b_jonas> these days I'm not really interested about this kind of thing
20:43:01 <int-e> http://www.phreedom.org/research/tinype/ looks like a good starting point.
20:43:24 <b_jonas> I may want to do low level assembled stuff, but only embedded into proper compiled programs with proper good practices
20:43:43 <fizzie> int-e: It seems to be consciously emulating that ELF page.
20:43:44 <b_jonas> like, individual functions written in assembler only, called from a normal C program
20:43:59 <int-e> fizzie: could be, could be.
20:44:16 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it says so. "In this, I have followed the example of the famous Whirlwind Tutorial on Creating Really Teensy ELF Executables for Linux."
20:44:26 <b_jonas> and when I learn about the theory of how this kind of low level thing works deep down, I'm more interested about linux than windows
20:44:29 <b_jonas> I try to avoid windows somewhat
20:44:44 <b_jonas> I have to work with windows at job, but don't do many system-dependent stuff there if I can help it
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20:45:12 <zzo38> Well, I should try to work it on both Linux and on Windows (and also ReactOS).
20:45:25 <b_jonas> as in, I try to write stuff as if I wrote linux programs then ported them to windows, only omit the parts I need to throw away during porting
20:45:29 <int-e> fizzie: it's a good example to follow in any case :)
20:46:05 <fizzie> It also has good links for the PE details, apparently.
20:46:51 <b_jonas> well, admittedly I didn't do much low level stuff in DOS either. I have very few programs written in assembler directly, and they're not very good programs either
20:47:16 <fizzie> I think it's nice how well that PE stuff parallels the ELF stuff, what with the interlacing of headers and all that.
20:50:07 <fizzie> (Though a bit more so, the last versions seem to have 4 different headers coexisting in the same bytes.)
20:50:28 <b_jonas> this is like the most useful program I ever wrote for DOS, and it doesn't do much: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickf.com
20:50:42 <b_jonas> it's a COM that changes the 9x16 VGA font, with the new font built in
20:52:46 <b_jonas> (it's 1788 bytes long, but could probably be compressed to half or third that size)
20:54:11 <fizzie> E.g. there's a dword of the executable that is the e_lfanew of the MZ header, SectionAlignment from the PE optional header, PointerToLinenumbers field of the PE code section header and TimeDateStamp of the import table.
20:55:29 <fizzie> Seems handy when you need the sets of integers and real numbers and whatnot in your command prompt.
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20:56:46 <fizzie> I compiled that one .com file with GCC, though it only worked in dosbox with no segment size checks.
20:56:55 <fizzie> (Still, that could've been fixed relatively easily.)
20:57:18 <fizzie> It was a non-crosscompiler Linux GCC and all, too.
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20:58:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KYJZ
20:58:44 <b_jonas> a non-crosscompiler linux gcc
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20:59:18 <fizzie> b_jonas: You just tell it to link with --oformat=binary linker flag, and do -Ttext=0x100 to kinda-fake "org 100h", and put asm(".code16gcc") on top so that GAS knows to assemble in bizarro mode.
20:59:52 <b_jonas> that's really fragile, but a nice hack
20:59:55 <fizzie> Bizarro mode being "this is 32-bit code out of GCC, but assemble it so that it'll sorta-work in a 16-bit segment by putting size-override prefixes in front of about every instruction".
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21:00:32 <fizzie> Written like that, it ends up using offsets beyond the segment limits, so it'll only work in dosbox or (presumably) some sort of unreal mode environment.
21:00:44 <b_jonas> like, as fragile as running compiled code with that old x86 interpreter ioccc entry that is very limited
21:01:15 <b_jonas> not the recent one which interprets most of x86 but cheats because it stores tables in the large "rom bios" file that are needed to interpret x86 instructions
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21:02:13 <b_jonas> I don't think the new one should have won. It's so cheating.
21:03:06 <fizzie> It was less cheating than what I expected from all the indignation (though I've entirely forgotten the details), but I can certainly understand the objections.
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21:25:53 <lambdabot> int-e said 4h 48m 52s ago: you may be interested in comparing your program to the second to the second (third, chronologically) version in http://sprunge.us/aRFh - there's some resemblence.
21:25:53 <lambdabot> int-e said 4h 38m 16s ago: but I all my versions use unwords, and all but the very first compute a list of rectangles from the strings ["ab","ac","bc","abc"], so there's no obvious smaller combination of our programs. tricky :)
21:25:53 <lambdabot> int-e said 3h 12m 1s ago: henkma's A006520 solution comes as a surprise to me, I didn't think of putting the gcd inside the scanl.
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21:43:52 <oerjan> @tell int-e your third version resembles the one i had before i realized o would be zipWith if i changed from tuples to lists
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22:06:24 <oerjan> @tell int-e after shortening my own version slightly by flattening the list similarly to you, i conclude that your version is better on _both_ IO and math side
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22:15:12 <oerjan> (alternatively Gregor)
22:15:15 <Somelauw> like brainfuck, whitespace, lolcode, c--, things like that?
22:16:25 <Somelauw> [-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.----------.++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:16:28 -!- LordCreepity has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:16:40 <oerjan> ^bf [-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.----------.++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:16:55 <oerjan> WHO KILLED ALL OR BOTS
22:17:00 <oerjan> @bf [-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.----------.++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:17:06 <Bicyclidine> these are supposed to be bot commands, if you're wondering, Somelauw
22:17:24 <oerjan> except trusty lambdabot
22:17:24 <shachaf> oerjan: the android killed all the ordroods hth
22:18:46 <shachaf> looj i'm typing on a phone
22:18:58 <shachaf> and it was an acceptable pun
22:19:15 <lambdabot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghij...
22:19:27 <zemhill> Lymia.hi: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
22:19:32 <Lymia> We have a living bot!
22:19:34 <lambdabot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654...
22:21:24 <Bicyclidine> ok whatever just imagine you were welcomed by a robot
22:22:03 <Somelauw> what are you favourite esoteric langs?
22:23:58 <shachaf> Bicyclidine: spivak is such a tiny book
22:24:09 <shachaf> i expected it to be big like spivak
22:24:14 <Bicyclidine> when it wsa recommended to me it was named as "smaller spivak"
22:26:10 <Bicyclidine> if it makes you feel better, that thing i showed a picture of the cover of, with the albatrosses, is several volumes
22:27:48 <shachaf> Bicyclidine: did you know derivatives of computable real functions are uncomputable but integrals aren't
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22:28:31 <Bicyclidine> that kind of surprises me given how hard integration is
22:28:43 <Bicyclidine> i forget, are computable real functions always smooth?
22:29:54 <oerjan> basically, derivation is easier symbolically, integration is easier numerically
22:30:15 <Bicyclidine> i do love me some ball and disk integrators
22:31:23 <shachaf> oerjan: differentiation is easier on expressions, integration is easier on functions?
22:32:06 <Bicyclidine> well, integration makes functions smoother
22:32:16 <Bicyclidine> whereas differentiation sometimes gets you some freaky discontinuous bullshit
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22:33:05 <shachaf> imo who cares about uncomputable functions anyway
22:34:45 <Bicyclidine> well, knowing the zeroes of a function is nice sometimes
22:39:36 <shachaf> next you'll want to decide any predicate about the reals
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23:17:22 <shachaf> Bicyclidine: so what's with the whole chain rule = functoriality thing
23:18:53 <shachaf> the chain rule apparently expresses the fact that differentiation is a functor
23:19:50 <shachaf> that's the kind of thing i was hoping you would clarify
23:20:01 <shachaf> hm, wikipedia says "the functor sends each space to its tangent bundle and it sends each function to its derivative"
23:20:32 <Bicyclidine> uh how does that work with chain rule, hrm
23:20:35 <shachaf> but what does D(f . g) = Df . Dg mean here
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23:23:48 <Bicyclidine> kind of wish i was high, so i'd have an excuse not to think about what composing tangent bundles means
23:24:28 <Somelauw> what is the best way to get a number in brainfuck. i know i can do print("," + 48 * "-"), but that only works for a single digit and it doesn't do any error checking.
23:24:31 <shachaf> well, it's composing morphisms between tangent bundles, presumably?
23:24:51 <shachaf> since you're an expert in tangent bundles you probably know what those are
23:25:09 <oerjan> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobian_matrix_and_determinant
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23:26:45 <shachaf> oerjan: which question is that answering
23:28:07 <oerjan> shachaf: if you think of Df and Dg as the jacobian matrices, then i think Df . Dg is just matrix multiplication (equivalently, composition of linear functions)
23:28:37 <oerjan> basically at each point x, Df is a linear function between the tangent spaces of x and f(x)
23:29:13 <shachaf> but how do you end up with f'(g(x))*g'(x)
23:29:36 <shachaf> also do you have an analogy for the "holes in types" kind of derivative
23:29:45 <shachaf> in which the chain rule is much more intuitive
23:30:17 <oerjan> Somelauw: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Print_value_of_cell_x_as_number
23:30:32 <Somelauw> oerjan: i want the exact opposite of that
23:30:48 <Somelauw> not to print, but store a number in cell x
23:31:44 <oerjan> Somelauw: if fungot was here i think it has some command that does that.
23:31:55 <oerjan> and which is written in brainfuck
23:32:15 <shachaf> Perhaps I'm missing something obvious.
23:33:25 <oerjan> shachaf: my intuition for holes in types is much weaker
23:35:17 <shachaf> oerjan: well, if you put a hole in F (G a), given that you know how to put holes in F and G, then you start with F' (G a) -- i.e. take out one G a from the F (G a) -- but then you took out too much, so you add to that a G a to end up with (F' (G a), G' a)
23:35:40 <shachaf> since you just wanted to take one a out of the whole thing
23:35:49 <oerjan> Dg(x)(t) = t*g'(x), Df(g(x))(u) = u*f'(g(x))
23:36:16 <oerjan> that is, Dg(x) is a linear function etc
23:36:55 <oerjan> D(f . g)(x)(t) = t*(f . g)'(x)
23:37:53 <oerjan> and D(f . g) = D(f) . D(g) becomes D(f . g)(x)(t) = D(f)(f(x))(D(g)(x)(t))
23:38:31 <Somelauw> chain rules is something like: [f(g(x + dx)) - f(g(x))] / dx = [f(g(x + dx)) / g(x + dx)] * [g(x + dx) / dx] = f'(g(x)) * g'(x)
23:38:54 <oerjan> Somelauw: we all know the simple version. shachaf is trying to understand it via category theory.
23:38:54 <Bicyclidine> they're talking about it in the context of differential geometry
23:39:16 <Bicyclidine> so you're taking derivatives of mountains or something
23:40:40 <oerjan> shachaf: and my last line becomes t*(f . g)')(x) = t*g'(x)*f'(f(x)) if you fill in the previous ones
23:41:30 <oerjan> now mind you, this is my intuition, i don't recall actuall reading this but i'm making up how i think this must work
23:43:21 <oerjan> s/D(f)(f(x))/D(f)(g(x))/ etc.
23:44:12 <oerjan> shachaf: so you can think of the derivative f'(x) as just the slope of the actual linear function between the tangent spaces (which are just R here)
23:44:35 <oerjan> and the latter is Df(x)
23:45:22 <oerjan> and if you have R^n spaces you get jacobian matrices instead of slopes
23:46:56 <shachaf> I think the R^n view is probably more reasonable anyway.
23:47:38 <shachaf> (imo saying "matrix" when you mean "linear function" is kind of silly)
23:48:10 <oerjan> but you need matrices to do numerical calculations
23:48:17 <Bicyclidine> that is my contribution to this conversation
23:48:54 <Bicyclidine> oh, i guess differentials should make this easy or something, but i barely get them
23:49:30 <Bicyclidine> which is what oerjan said probably whatever
23:50:25 * pikhq computes the eigenfuck matrix
23:51:32 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushforward_(differential) seems relevant
23:52:34 <Bicyclidine> this is in like the first fives pages of burke but i still don't remember it. i need homework
23:54:12 <oerjan> my formal math education was somehow devoid of differential geometry
23:54:37 <oerjan> no one at the institute really cared about it, i guess.
23:55:22 <shachaf> Q: Why is Khans of Tarkir useful for differential geometry?
23:55:23 <Bicyclidine> i only care because it turns out calculus on manifolds is nice for when you deal with manifolds which is a lot
23:55:30 <shachaf> A: Because it's a wedge product!
23:56:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not even going to look up that reference
23:56:17 <Bicyclidine> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Standards_Day meanwhile in prewritten jokes
23:56:28 <Bicyclidine> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Standards_Day
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23:58:30 * oerjan has this feeling he hasn't seen MDude in a while
23:59:15 <MDude> I do tend to not appear for a while at places now and then.
23:59:55 <MDude> At times, it's due to being busy reappearing elsewhere.
00:00:21 <oerjan> in norway 14 october is the "first winter day". also it was my grandfather's birthday.
00:00:23 <MDude> Not fast enough to proprely juggle a bunch of places..
00:00:56 <MDude> I guess winter would start earlier there.
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00:01:18 <oerjan> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Standards_Day was mentioned just before you arrived)
00:02:49 <oerjan> i think the name is based on a winter=half-year system, though. there's a similar first summer day in the spring.
00:03:36 <MDude> First thought that popped into my head was someone saying "Today's World Standards Day, AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!" and tossing me off a conveniently nearby cliff.
00:04:45 <zzo38> What is a "winter=half-year system"?
00:05:45 <oerjan> zzo38: well dividing the year into two parts, summer and winter...
00:05:53 <oerjan> rather than four seasons
00:06:28 <oerjan> apparently these days go back to a norse sacrificial feast. who'd have known.
00:07:30 <oerjan> also, it used to be the only days it was legal to move in norway...
00:07:33 <zzo38> O, but in that case wouldn't it be summer if Sun is your side of the equator, or something like that? Where does October 14 comes from?
00:07:50 <MDude> Apparently the U.S. is going to celebrate it on the 23d instead for some reason, presumably just to be non-standard about something.
00:07:57 <oerjan> zzo38: apparently the sacrifical feasts were held 28 days after equinoxes
00:08:10 <oerjan> why they did that i don't know.
00:08:41 <MDude> It's four weeks, which about one month.
00:09:25 <zzo38> But that isn't the equinox either. Is it because of the old calendar perhaps? After all, Christmas is on December 25 even though, it is not the solstice.
00:09:26 <MDude> So I guess they times it by waiting for the moon to make one cycle after the equinox?
00:10:19 <MDude> I dunno why they'd do that other than wanting the season to set in a little more before feasting over it.
00:10:25 <shachaf> is there a name for Lf(c) = lim{x->c}f(x)
00:10:57 <zzo38> MDude: I still don't get that date, though.
00:11:20 <Sgeo> Is it easier to be a power user, with scripts everywhere to do things, on Windows or Mac?
00:11:41 <oerjan> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_calendar seems relevant
00:12:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: On Mac OS X, you can use UNIX commands. On Windows, you can use UNIX commands if you have Cygwin, but it isn't completely the working of the system.
00:12:08 <Sgeo> I guess Powershell is similar to AppleScript?
00:12:27 <MDude> schanchaf: Is there some kind of reverse phone book for math stuff?
00:12:31 <Sgeo> zzo38: I'm thinking of things like AppleScript, which I think can interact with standard GUI applications
00:12:37 <oerjan> the primstav started on those days on each side
00:12:54 <MDude> Where you put math in using a standard form and then you're told its name.
00:13:05 <shachaf> fizzie: See how useful my /hilight is?
00:13:09 <Sgeo> Also I keep hearing good things about Cocoa
00:13:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, probably AppleScript (or possibly Amiga Rexx?) can do it better, although yes in Windows there is the Windows Script Host, which can do some similar thing.
00:13:20 <zzo38> (It supports both VBscript and JavaScript, in fact.)
00:14:19 <shachaf> also oerjan++ for https links
00:15:24 <oerjan> shachaf: well i've set wikipedia to redirect me to https if i accidentally visit a page that isn't
00:15:48 <oerjan> so i only see those, except for the occasional times when my login elapses
00:17:16 <Sgeo> oerjan: can't tell Wikipedia to send you HSTS?
00:17:23 <oerjan> MDude: note that the summer solstice is in the _first_ summer month by at least norwegian reckoning, and even if it's the brightest day of the year it's usually _not_ the hottest, that's in july or august.
00:17:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: IE doesn't support that yet
00:18:01 <Sgeo> ...you're using IE? Or does MediaWiki not generally support stuff that everything doesn't support
00:20:13 <Sgeo> o.O http://fuckingblocksyntax.com/
00:20:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: you remember online worlds from the late triassic, but not that i'm using IE tdnh
00:22:10 <oerjan> also i have no idea whether wikimedia supports HSTS or not
00:22:53 <oerjan> Sgeo: sorry cannot explain, HackEgo is down hth
00:24:35 <Bike> shachaf: re L i think you usually just say it's a removable singularity and use an extension of the function instaed
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00:26:33 <Sgeo> "I remember when they introduced blocks at WWDC, they said "You declare them just like function pointers in C!" and all I could think was "Oh god, why.""
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01:41:16 * Taneb is reading the Sketchpad paper
01:41:43 <Bike> like, sutherland?
01:42:08 <shachaf> How is a parametric linear function "a -o F a" related to a derivative of F?
01:42:21 <Bike> i liked the videos
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01:49:04 <shachaf> I guess I don't mean parametric, exactly.
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01:50:22 <copumpkin> take F = [], it forces the list to have one element?
01:51:02 <shachaf> I don't want parametricity exactly. Or maybe I just want it in a particular way.
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01:51:37 <Taneb> I do not understand your syntax
01:51:38 <shachaf> But it seems like it forces there to be a "hole" to insert the a into, since the function is linear.
01:51:44 <Taneb> What does "-o" mean?
01:52:19 <shachaf> Linear implication, but I might be using that wrong.
01:52:39 <Taneb> I don't know what linear implication is :(
01:52:49 <shachaf> It means you have to use the argument exactly once.
01:53:14 <shachaf> So maybe e.g. a linear function :: A -> (A,A) would force you to insert the argument in one position of the tuple or the other.
01:53:36 <shachaf> And a linear function :: A -> (T,A) would just be a T.
01:53:43 <shachaf> So it seems a lot like a derivative.
01:54:03 <copumpkin> but it doesn't force you to insert the argument in one position or the other
01:54:13 <copumpkin> it seems like you want a "neutral element" that's not linear
01:54:42 <copumpkin> if it's linear, you simply can't write it
01:54:43 <shachaf> You have a preëxisting structure, like (A, _) or (_, A)
01:55:00 <shachaf> Maybe you need to express that differently with linear types.
01:55:06 <Taneb> So if A -> (A, A) is linear, it's isomorphic to (Bool, A)?
01:55:12 <shachaf> But you just insert the A you get in the hole.
01:55:31 <shachaf> I don't understand your version.
01:56:55 <copumpkin> well, I'm just trying to capture that you have to pick where to stick your argument
01:57:06 <copumpkin> but you still need to fill in the other values
01:57:13 <copumpkin> and you can only use the argument once
01:57:28 <copumpkin> not that I think mine is right either
01:57:37 <copumpkin> if you instantiate it to list, you basically get naturals
01:58:18 <shachaf> The idea is that you "lexically capture" the rest of the structure or something. Except maybe it's more complicated with linear types.
01:59:07 <shachaf> That seems too complicated.
01:59:17 <copumpkin> I dunno, seems like you want lensey behavior for capturing the rest
01:59:28 <copumpkin> although you don't really need both halves I guess
01:59:43 <shachaf> Anyway maybe e.g. (A^2 -o F A) would be a second derivative this way.
02:00:00 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean with lenses.
02:00:22 <copumpkin> [21:57:20] <shachaf> The idea is that you "lexically capture" the rest of the structure or something. Except maybe it's more complicated with linear types.
02:00:36 <copumpkin> haven't given it any more thought than that :)
02:01:14 <shachaf> Do you see what I'm trying to get at?
02:02:07 <copumpkin> in general, I think so, but am too tired to really think about it deeply
02:03:46 <shachaf> I kind of want parametricity (so a function can't take the A argument apart and mix it into the rest of the structure, or something like that -- is that relevant for linear types?) but I kind of don't (because an inhabitant has a specific rest-of-the-structure).
02:04:23 <shachaf> So I'm not sure what I'm getting at.
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02:29:33 <shachaf> <oerjan> basically at each point x, Df is a linear function between the tangent spaces of x and f(x)
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02:45:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40611&oldid=40333 * 106.120.110.180 * (-27543)
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02:47:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40612&oldid=40611 * 69.166.47.137 * (+27543) Undo revision 40611 by [[Special:Contributions/106.120.110.180|106.120.110.180]] ([[User talk:106.120.110.180|talk]]): unfunny
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04:16:06 <shachaf> See also <http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/tlca03.pdf>.
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04:19:40 <Sgeo> http://www.phonestory.org/banned.html
04:19:44 <Sgeo> Ah, curated app stores
04:20:15 <Sgeo> I think.. I'm in favor of a curated app store that legitimately possible to go outside of, with warnings. Something just for safety's sake
04:20:24 <Sgeo> But maybe not quite as many restrictions
04:20:34 <Sgeo> "From App Store Review Guidelines (the document is only visible to logged-in developers)."
04:20:39 <Sgeo> Oh, that's nice
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04:32:04 <MDude> Huh, I didn't know IBNIZ wasn't on the wiki until less than half a day ago.
04:32:14 <MDude> Also, Viznut's blog is gone?
04:32:43 <MDude> The one on Blogger is.
04:36:35 <zzo38> How to make a program it can use the stdin/stdout of another program it can call, both working Windows and Linux?
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04:53:23 <zzo38> Like as in a terminal emulator that uses local program and not internet
04:56:37 <MDude> I guess the same way the terminal does.
04:57:45 <zzo38> But, I don't know what is the way, and how to make it both Windows and Linux (using #ifdef if necessary). And, possibly even in a SDL 1.x program, will need to call such thing
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05:01:21 <drdanmaku> MDude: http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/ ?
05:01:57 <MDude> Oh, the url on the wiki page is just mistyped.
05:02:10 <MDude> And links to http://countecomplex.blogspot.com/ instead.
05:03:29 <MDude> Ol' Count E-Complex, the pixelated vampire.
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06:13:43 <zzo38> Let's make a polyglot program where one of the formats is Z-machine binary.
06:17:12 <zzo38> Combining with GameBoy probably is not so difficult, because the GameBoy header does not start at the beginning of the file.
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06:31:14 <zzo38> PKZIP format can start at any position in the file.
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06:50:15 <b_jonas> in perl golf, what's the shortest way to read a line and chomp it and return it in place in a statement? is <>=~/.+/,$& really the shortest?
06:53:57 <coppro> I can't believe I can't find a TTBB arrangement of the song of the lonely mountain
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07:26:25 <mroman> fizzie: Neat @gcd thingy
07:28:57 <int-e> b_jonas: what's wrong with just <>?
07:29:15 <b_jonas> int-e: I have to chomp it, as in remove the newline
07:29:45 <int-e> err, never mind. I read it and promptly forgot.
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07:31:13 <mroman> fizzie: 500{ro{256g_}ms}GO#S
07:31:29 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15d 6h 59m ago: <mroman_> but it would be really huge if it were complete. <-- i'm secretly planning to split the table when it gets a bit wider.
07:32:18 <mroman> Can't you just PM me :)
07:32:22 <mroman> instead of using @tell
07:33:04 <mroman> also AndoDaan used sort instead of reverse o_O
07:33:22 <mroman> AndoDaan: why are you such a fan of #q?
07:34:04 <mroman> It's the same thing as ^p (or was it p^)
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07:35:09 <mroman> b_jonas: that's the problem with using #q
07:35:17 <mroman> it only works if it's at the end of the program ;)
07:35:54 <mroman> #q just rewrites the code of your program
07:36:20 <mroman> #q takes a list from the stack and replaces your code with it
07:36:32 <mroman> {1 2 3 4}#q becomes 1 2 3 4
07:37:12 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3 4}++}#qthisisneverexecuted
07:37:12 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 35):
07:37:14 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3 4}++}#qthisisneverexecuted.
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07:40:29 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Unknown command: (RQ)! ERROR: Unknown command: (##)! {## RQ #s}}
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07:44:02 <mroman> elliott: https://diogomonica.com/posts/password-security-why-the-horse-battery-staple-is-not-correct/
07:44:07 <mroman> See? This guy gets it.
07:44:22 <mroman> The security of password is mostly determined by how likely it appears in a dictionary attack
07:45:54 <mroman> That's why using song lyrics is the way to go currently
07:46:06 <mroman> PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman
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07:47:14 <HackEgo> The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:47:29 <AndoDaan> mroman: Hey. I think I noticed a small mistake in the burlesque lref.html: both l_ and g_ are defined as ^^-]\/[-\/ for blocks and strings. I think it should be ^^[~\/~] for l_
07:47:57 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}^^[~\/~]#s
07:48:03 <mroman> AndoDaan: right. Thanks.
07:48:07 <mroman> I'll correct it immediately
07:49:11 <mroman> `learn The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
07:49:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'password': The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
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07:55:11 <shachaf> since when is `learn so helpful
07:55:37 <mroman> I pissed him off so he changed it.
07:55:49 <shachaf> i'll take credit for inspiring oerjan
07:56:45 <AndoDaan> mroman: "AndoDaan: why are you such a fan of #q?" idk i kinda developed some blindspots, but now that i see ^p and p^ i'll never #q#< again.
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08:00:49 <mroman> <>#q is the same as p^
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08:01:24 <mroman> also you probably could have just used <- in this case
08:01:52 <mroman> but you should only use #q if you actually want to do some freaky runtime code manipulation
08:02:27 <mroman> But I don't think one can actually do some useful runtime code manipulation
08:02:33 <mroman> so far nobody has found a use for it
08:03:29 <mroman> e! has almost the same effect as #q at the end of programs
08:03:47 <mroman> you can't do anything after a #q
08:04:01 <blsqbot> {4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1
08:04:15 <blsqbot> {{{1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4
08:04:26 <mroman> ^- I'll give you this free trick :)
08:04:34 <AndoDaan> doesn't stop me trying... #Q #q #j #J are going to wow one day, mark my words
08:04:45 <mroman> 10E! is shorter than 10.*\[
08:05:13 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid argume
08:05:23 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid argume
08:05:25 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}10.*\[#s
08:05:25 <blsqbot> {{1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3
08:05:35 <blsqbot> {1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
08:05:44 <AndoDaan> oh just executing something n times
08:06:09 <mroman> it depends on the ordering of the list though
08:06:26 <mroman> but in certain rare cases E! is better than doing .*
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08:21:45 <Sgeo> zzo38: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2j49x1/a_cpu_emulated_in_tex/
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09:00:55 <mroman> Sgeo: I don't see an emulator there
09:01:27 <mroman> I used to think the definition of insanity was doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
09:01:42 <mroman> ^- by that logic every language with side-effects is effectively insane
09:02:42 <mroman> reddit titles are links?
09:05:47 <mroman> AndoDaan: How's that ARM Emulator you're writing in Burlesque going?
09:08:08 <AndoDaan> terrible. i'm gonna make use of zzo38's HELP thingie, or divise something like that myself to help me keep this straight. writing it straight, it just gets muddled in my head.
09:09:49 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wd
09:10:12 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ[-
09:10:15 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]
09:10:37 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]{{"ADD"==}{"It's an add instruction"}}CNe!
09:10:37 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
09:10:40 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]{{"ADD"==}{"It's an add instruction"}}CN
09:10:49 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]{{"ADD"==}{"It's an add instruction"}}cn
09:10:49 <blsqbot> {"It's an add instruction"}
09:10:56 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]{{"ADD"==}{"It's an add instruction"}}cne!
09:10:59 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]{{"ADD"==}{"It's an add instruction"}}cne!#S
09:11:12 <mroman> !blsq {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}"ADD R0 R1"wdJ-]{{"ADD"==}{"It's an add instruction"}}cne!#s
09:11:12 <blsqbot> {"It's an add instruction" {"ADD" "R0" "R1"} {"RO" 3 "R1" 2}}
09:11:38 <mroman> It could be done though
09:11:49 <mroman> pretty easily if it had variables actually
09:12:27 <AndoDaan> i've been looking how to do that with cn
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09:13:04 <mroman> cn want's a block with {condition1 code1 condition2 code2 condition3 code3}
09:13:25 <mroman> !blsq 2{{1==}9{2==}8{3==}0}}cn
09:13:25 <blsqbot> {{1 ==} 9 {2 ==} 8 {3 ==} 0}
09:13:47 <mroman> !blsq 2{{1==}9{2==}8{3==}0}cn
09:13:51 <mroman> !blsq 3{{1==}9{2==}8{3==}0}cn
09:13:55 <mroman> !blsq 5{{1==}9{2==}8{3==}0}cn
09:14:07 <AndoDaan> yeah, if i can keep a cn and use is as the... memory i guess
09:14:21 <mroman> !blsq 5{{1==}9{2==}8{3==}0{vv1}"ERROR"}cn
09:14:33 <mroman> You can just use a list as memory
09:15:04 <mroman> !blsq 0bx10.*\[ 5 3sa6 4sa
09:15:49 <AndoDaan> it's just easier for me if i can see it{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3}}cn
09:16:56 <mroman> !blsq 1{{{"R0"==}1{"R1=="}3}cn}"ADD R0 R1"ap
09:16:56 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque (ap): Invalid arguments!
09:17:08 <mroman> !blsq 1{{{"R0"==}1{"R1=="}3}cn}"ADD R0 R1"wdap
09:17:09 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque (ap): Invalid arguments!
09:17:13 <mroman> !blsq 1{{{"R0"==}1{"R1=="}3}cn}"ADD R0 R1"wd#s
09:17:13 <blsqbot> {{"ADD" "R0" "R1"} {{{"R0" ==} 1 {"R1=="} 3} cn} 1}
09:17:36 <mroman> !blsq {{{"R0"==}1{"R1=="}3}cn}1"ADD R0 R1"wdap
09:17:36 <blsqbot> {{{"R0" ==} 1 {"R1=="} 3} "R1"}
09:18:04 <mroman> !blsq 2{?i}{1 2 3 4}ap
09:18:04 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque (ap): Invalid arguments!
09:18:16 <mroman> !blsq {?i}2{1 2 3 4}ap
09:18:16 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
09:18:21 <mroman> !blsq {?i}{1 2 3 4}2ap
09:18:21 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
09:18:30 <AndoDaan> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3}}cn}m[
09:19:00 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{?i}2ap
09:19:09 <mroman> damn documentation is wrong!
09:19:17 <AndoDaan> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD}{.+}}m[
09:19:17 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 53):
09:19:20 <AndoDaan> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD}{.+}}m[
09:19:21 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 53):
09:19:27 <AndoDaan> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD}{.+}}}m[
09:19:27 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 54):
09:19:47 <AndoDaan> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD"==}{.+}}cn}m[
09:19:49 <mroman> !blsq {{{"R0"==}1{"R1=="}3}cn}"ADD R0 R1"wd1ap
09:19:49 <blsqbot> {{{"R0" ==} 1 {"R1=="} 3} "R1"}
09:20:03 <mroman> !blsq {{{"R0"==}1{"R1"==}3}cn}"ADD R0 R1"wd1ap
09:20:03 <blsqbot> {{{"R0" ==} 1 {"R1" ==} 3} "R1"}
09:20:11 <AndoDaan> !blsq "R0 R1 ADD"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD"==}{.+}}cn}m[
09:20:16 <AndoDaan> !blsq "R0 R1 ADD"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD"==}{.+}}cn}m[++
09:20:19 <AndoDaan> !blsq "R0 R1 ADD"wd{{{"R0"==}{1} {"R1"==}{3} {"ADD"==}{.+}}cn}m[++e!
09:20:39 <mroman> !blsq {{{"R0"==}1{"R1"==}3}cn}"ADD R0 R1"wdj1ap
09:20:57 <AndoDaan> maybe keep the cn block in the state stack and push it down where needed
09:21:05 <mroman> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}1{"R1"==}3}cn}1ap
09:21:27 <mroman> !blsq "ADD R0 R1"wd{{{"R0"==}1{"R1"==}3}cn}JPp1appP2ap
09:22:25 <mroman> no variables is so much pain in the ass for complicated stuff
09:27:18 <mroman> !bfjoust rushit (>-->+)*4(>[(+)*7[-].](+)*1)*-1
09:27:19 <zemhill> mroman.rushit: points -9.48, score 13.27, rank 44/47
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09:33:02 <fizzie> mroman: I still haven't had the occasion to figure out what's wrong there, so take all the results with a grain of salt.
09:39:23 <mroman> !bfjoust kthxbye >(+)*7<(++-)*-1
09:39:26 <zemhill> mroman.kthxbye: points -5.52, score 14.98, rank 44/47
09:41:39 <mroman> !bfjoust kthxbye >(+)*20<(++-)*-1
09:41:41 <zemhill> mroman.kthxbye: points -4.90, score 15.28, rank 43/47 (+1)
09:42:01 <mroman> !bfjoust kthxbye (>(+)*10)*3<<<(++-)*-1
09:42:03 <zemhill> mroman.kthxbye: points -6.52, score 14.19, rank 45/47 (-2)
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11:27:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fugue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40613&oldid=20544 * 188.126.200.132 * (+141)
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12:28:19 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
12:28:34 <oerjan> `run echo mroman >> bin/dontaskdonttelllist
12:28:58 <mroman> I have irssi running on a server.
12:29:12 <mroman> So I can read stuff days after you wrote it as a /query to me
12:29:33 <oerjan> what if i ping you in channel?
12:29:54 <mroman> Like "<oerjan> mroman: hi there"?
12:29:55 <oerjan> i mean what if i say it in this channel
12:30:08 <mroman> oerjan: Then I might overlook it
12:30:09 <oerjan> no, the actual message
12:30:38 <mroman> I don't read the logfiles
12:30:45 <mroman> I just read the buffer which is I don't know
12:30:50 <oerjan> i'm sorry but that's not something my brain is prepared to do, since i naturally trust privmsg even less than the channel
12:30:55 <mroman> depends on how much activity there is in this channel
12:31:08 <oerjan> i always search for my own nick in the log files
12:31:12 <mroman> but the backlog/buffer for query lasts like forever
12:31:33 <mroman> oerjan: I don't mind @tell
12:31:46 <mroman> It's just that lambdabot recently tells me the same things again and again :D
12:32:05 <oerjan> well that's a problem with lambdabot not saving stuff
12:32:15 <oerjan> which int-e intends to fix, i think
12:32:18 <mroman> (which isn't really a big deal)
12:32:35 <oerjan> (btw does this mean lambdabot also lost my recent @tell's to int-e?)
12:33:02 <oerjan> `run echo "mroman (use query)" >> bin/dontaskdonttelllist
12:33:02 <mroman> but it just told me something that was 15ds old and I've already read that
12:33:09 <oerjan> just realized i can do that
12:33:22 <mroman> either way is fine. But I'd prefer query
12:33:25 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname mroman (use query)
12:33:50 <oerjan> hm that looks eerily like it might apply to all of them
12:34:05 <oerjan> `run echo "mroman(use query)" >> bin/dontaskdonttelllist
12:35:43 <mroman> Is this list "by convention"
12:35:47 <mroman> or does lambdabot read it?
12:35:59 <oerjan> it's by convention and i read it
12:36:21 <oerjan> i suppose others _might_ if they have as bad a memory as me, but then how do they remember the list exists...
12:36:53 <oerjan> it can remember the strangest things. comes with being a geek/nerd, i guess.
12:38:03 <oerjan> (iwc has a poll about geek/nerd right now, and i gave up deciding whether any answer fits me)
12:40:00 <Melvar> < mroman> elliott: https://diogomonica.com/posts/password-security-why-the-horse-battery-staple-is-not-correct/ < mroman> That's why using song lyrics is the way to go currently – What about obscure unicode characters?
12:41:17 <oerjan> the problem with obscure unicode characters is that you may have to adapt your password to sites that only accept ASCII.
12:42:18 <fizzie> The other problem is sites that do accept non-ASCII but do ridiculous and unpredictable transformations.
12:42:44 <Melvar> fizzie: How does that happen?
12:44:42 <fizzie> Different kind of pipeline for the part that sticks the password somewhere than the part that validates it when logging in, perhaps. And then there's the client-side woes. I'm not sure how you conventiently enter obscure Unicode characters on e.g. Android.
12:45:41 <Melvar> “Different kind of pipeline”?
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12:47:40 <b_jonas> there are sites that don't accept non-ascii in passwords?
12:48:01 <b_jonas> I mean, I could sort of understand if a site doesn't accept some low control characters
12:48:09 <Melvar> (I have had something like this happen once, where a client had broken unicode support on one platform but not another.)
12:48:28 <b_jonas> but why would they not accept non-ascii? they don't really have to do any manipulation with the password besides eq compare, right?
12:48:59 <mroman> they should compare hashes only
12:49:12 <mroman> so "my db doesn't support unicode" isn't really an excuse
12:49:32 <Melvar> b_jonas: The only way the backend inspects your password input should be hashing it. However, we know that multitudes of shittily-made sites are stupid instead.
12:49:39 <fizzie> They need to do validation for their password rules, of course.
12:49:52 <mroman> it needs to have at least one upper-case letter
12:50:27 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Var’
12:50:44 <Melvar> Hmm, what was that thing …
12:50:54 <oerjan> Melvar: try lowe case hth
12:50:54 <fizzie> It doesn't have a case, not being a letter.
12:51:35 <Melvar> mroman: The better question: Is Ş considered uppercase by their processing?
12:51:44 <lambdabot> ∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞...
12:52:33 <HackEgo> U+015E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S WITH CEDILLA \ UTF-8: c5 9e UTF-16BE: 015e Decimal: Ş \ Ş (ş) \ Lowercase: U+015F \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 0053 0327
12:54:02 <HackEgo> U+01F1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ \ UTF-8: c7 b1 UTF-16BE: 01f1 Decimal: DZ \ DZ (dz) \ Lowercase: U+01F3 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0044 005A
12:54:12 <Melvar> > map ($'ʔ') [isLetter, isUpper, isLower]
12:54:20 <fizzie> Aw, the reply doesn't mention Dz at all.
12:54:24 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
12:54:37 <fungot> >>,[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+10.
12:54:58 <fizzie> There's an extra newline at the end.
12:55:02 <oerjan> i think that's considerably smaller than that thing from stackoverflow in the wiki
12:55:08 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
12:55:16 <fizzie> Also does multiple characters.
12:55:31 <fizzie> I guess that means there's an extra *space* at the end, but it's less offensive, arguably.
12:55:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure why we be having redundant stuffs.
12:56:03 <oerjan> fizzie: i think your algorithm looks better than http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Print_value_of_cell_x_as_number
12:56:15 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I just copied that from somewhere.
12:56:21 <Melvar> This reminds me of the thing I tried to do with idris recently, namely use a type provider to read in UnicodeData.txt .
12:57:49 <Melvar> It turns out that the longer it goes, the slower it gets, so reading in the whole thing is currently out of the question.
12:57:50 <fizzie> However, I have no idea from where, which makes it hard to give proper credit.
12:58:19 <fizzie> oerjan: http://mazonka.com/brainf/ perhaps.
13:00:56 <oerjan> i think this might not be the best time to try to load that link they just broadcasted
13:14:38 <fizzie> `run echo 'weiß' | perl -C7 -ne 'print lc uc' # case is hard
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13:16:21 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
13:16:42 <fungot> (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S
13:16:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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13:18:37 <mroman> It's biased towards Yes
13:18:43 <fizzie> It doesn't take arguments.
13:19:28 <fizzie> And I'm pretty sure it's equidistributed.
13:20:26 <fizzie> ^8ball Is ^bool biased or not?
13:20:37 <fizzie> ^8ball Yes, it's biased, or yes, it's not?
13:20:47 <fizzie> ^8ball Are you doing this just to be difficult?
13:21:14 <fizzie> Note that that's not from ^bool.
13:21:50 <mroman> It's still biased towards yes
13:22:36 <mroman> Maybe we humans are biased to think it's biased.
13:23:31 <mroman> there's only a 6.25% chance that you get 4 yes in a row
13:24:27 <fizzie> I never said it was random, just that it will return equally many Yes and No answers if you do it approximately 16*((2^31) - 1) times.
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13:25:35 <fizzie> It's essentially just do { i = random() % 4; } while (i < 1 || i > 2); for the random in <stdlib.h>.
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13:28:07 <fizzie> And then i == 1 ? "No." : "Yes." after that.
13:29:20 <fizzie> Fun fact: for a pathological implementation of random(), ^bool could block indefinitely.
13:29:56 <mroman> why not just use random()%2?
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13:30:25 <fizzie> And it was slightly easier.
13:30:34 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball
13:30:35 <fungot> tthhiiss iiss aa tteesstt
13:30:38 <b_jonas> ah right, befunge has a four-way random that rolls the execution direction
13:31:19 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JeXZ essentially.
13:32:13 <FireFly> the < below the ? in the second one should be a >, no?
13:32:41 <mroman> where's the fungot source code?
13:32:41 <fungot> mroman: you wouldn't translate " word wrap" as " an abstract data type ( a b c)
13:32:46 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
13:33:08 <fizzie> fungot: No, I wouldn't, you're right about that.
13:33:09 <fungot> fizzie: go away, learn to enjoy being bad at it, forcer?
13:33:27 <mroman> does it use EsoAPI or something?
13:34:25 <fizzie> No, it's just Funge-98.
13:34:37 <fizzie> There's a "SOCK" fingerprint for sockets.
13:37:42 <fizzie> It also uses STRN for general easiness, and REXP for the ignore list, and FILE for the babbling, and FING to use STRN and FILE at the same time, and SUBR for ^code, and TOYS for an easy fungespace clear for ^reload, and... I guess that's it. Except it loads SCKE and doesn't use it; the whole SCKE was a bad idea anyway. There was lots of talk about NSCK that'd be properly getaddrinfo/IPv6/etc-ish, but that never materialized.
13:38:15 <fizzie> (The reload, raw, code, save and ignore commands are all owner-only.)
13:38:34 <mroman> ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi there!
13:44:39 <blsqbot> How's the wheather in fungespace?!
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14:21:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Viznut]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40614&oldid=40609 * Oerjan * (+1) Taking the liberty of fixing a link typo
14:30:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fugue]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40615&oldid=40613 * Oerjan * (+102) unsigned
14:41:05 <oerjan> my mind tells me it's missing something, like any actual meaning of "discrete" in meteorology
14:41:33 <oerjan> possibly i'm simply missing the real pun.
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14:53:12 <elliott> mroman: I know you're just trolling me because that's not what the post says at all.
14:54:09 <mroman> It does say that the security depends on how likely it appears in a dictionary attack.
14:55:17 <mroman> "and should consider first and foremost how dictionary-attack resistant the passwords is."
14:56:34 <mroman> The other stuff is trolling, yes.
14:59:23 <mroman> Of course, a 20 characters long random password is most likely really dictionary-attack resistant
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15:00:10 <mroman> (Of course, there's a chance that the generated password is "111111111111111111" which doesn't look realy safe and might not be very dictionary-attack resistant)
15:00:40 <Slereah> What about 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
15:00:56 <Slereah> I wonder at what length such a password is dictionary attack resistant
15:01:03 <Slereah> I guess whatever set length they use
15:01:15 <mroman> I find it hard to reason about dictionary-attack resistant
15:02:11 <mroman> Is "Qj098HNH?_sn@7894%^1$#=9/]" a good password?
15:03:08 <Slereah> The best password is hieroglyphs
15:03:22 <Slereah> You can write simple words and nobody will think to use that section of unicode!
15:06:52 <mroman> http://codepad.org/U7xQArjr
15:07:22 <fizzie> You just ruined 974 perfectly good passwords!
15:07:40 <mroman> ^- if your password is in there it's unsafe
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15:10:36 <mroman> because it's in a dictionary
15:11:01 <Slereah> But is it in most dictionaries?
15:11:15 <Slereah> I mean you could generate all character chains and put it in a dictionary!
15:12:05 <mroman> Passwords all have a common weakness
15:12:48 <Slereah> What if you use a soul detector
15:12:58 <Slereah> only responds to the metaphysical peculiarities of your soul
15:13:21 <mroman> The only thing you can do is limit the amount of guesses an attacker can reasonably make in certain amount of time
15:13:45 <mroman> Just picture you standing in ancient rome
15:13:53 <mroman> and somebody wants to enter your secret cave
15:13:53 <quintopia> mroman: that's impossible in practice
15:13:59 <mroman> but he doesn't know the password
15:14:03 <Slereah> mroman : Is it a barbarian
15:14:12 <mroman> so you just let him stand there and say "no, that's not it" until he gets it right?
15:14:14 <quintopia> well, impossible from the perspective of the password chooser
15:14:23 <mroman> You'll punch him in the face and feed him to the lions.
15:14:27 <quintopia> obv the hasher can use a very slow hash to slow down attackers
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15:15:20 <mroman> If an attacker can make only one attempt
15:15:43 <mroman> Is "123123" a worse password than "ACqaQn"?
15:16:56 <mroman> Because a human is more likely to guess with his only attempt he has "123123"?
15:17:03 <mroman> than he is to guess "ACqaQn"?
15:17:57 <mroman> so it's more of a social/physicological than a technical problem
15:18:55 <mroman> Maybe the guesser reasons that since you're not stupid you didn't choose "123123" and tries to guess for something more clever.
15:19:28 <mroman> but he might also reason that you just assume that people think you're clever and did choose a clever password so in order to be extra clever you chose a non-clever password
15:20:00 <AndoDaan> sounds like a game The Sicillian would play.
15:20:40 <mroman> quintopia: but the provider can
15:21:53 <mroman> I understand that not everbody can provide two-factor-auth through SMS
15:21:57 <mroman> (since sending SMS probably costs money)
15:22:06 <mroman> but AT LEAST you can use two-factor-auth via e-mail.
15:22:43 <mroman> which means you can easily limit the amounts of guesses an attacker can make EVEN IF the attack has control over your e-mail account
15:23:13 <mroman> because you just hand-out a two-factor-auth token every ten minutes or so
15:24:30 <mroman> Limiting IPs to a one attempt every ten minute isn't practical
15:24:40 <mroman> but if you do it through a two-factor-auth via e-mail it is.
15:25:23 <oerjan> why isn't it practical
15:25:41 <mroman> Because multiple people may share the same external IP?
15:26:36 <oerjan> what about limiting to n _failed_ attempts every ten minute
15:26:40 <elliott> it is practical to limit (acount,IP) to one attempt every 10 minutes.
15:27:13 <oerjan> elliott: that doesn't help if they have a huge number of accounts to try, though
15:27:26 <elliott> oerjan: yes. so you have a larger global limit
15:28:31 <elliott> I'm not sure why we're continuing to discuss ~password cracker psychology~ with mroman though?
15:31:08 <elliott> fizzie: huh, didn't fungot use to use SCKE? like... recently? (like... 2009?)
15:31:08 <fungot> elliott: and that's in holidays :) i haven't done it for a master or a phd?
15:31:50 <elliott> 13:48:28 <b_jonas> but why would they not accept non-ascii? they don't really have to do any manipulation with the password besides eq compare, right?
15:31:58 <elliott> b_jonas: if you are accepting unicode passwords you should do normalisation on them
15:32:19 <elliott> b_jonas: unless you want to explain to people why they can log in when they type e-with-accent in /this/ way but not this other way
15:34:07 <b_jonas> elliott: (a) don't the input methods do normalization anyway? and (b) so people really type in their passwords in multiple ways? maybe when they log in from multiple devices I guess
15:34:43 <elliott> b_jonas: (a) all of them? and browsers not getting in the way? how much do you want to bet?
15:34:54 <elliott> (b) yeah, like phone vs. computer or whatever
15:35:27 <Gregor> Also, good luck implementing normalization into an existing system.
15:35:42 <Gregor> "Your password no longer works because you didn't type in the way we wanted you to type ."
15:35:44 <Melvar> Wat. You shouldn’t even decode, let alone normalize.
15:36:58 <b_jonas> dunno, I don't have experience in this, because I don't really meet any of these separate code point accents. Ok, maybe I see them sometimes on irc in IPA-like pronunciation notation, but that's all.
15:37:04 <elliott> Gregor: you can just try hashing it in various forms and then update the hash, but yeah.
15:37:26 <elliott> I don't know, I sort of feel like due to the opaqueness of password hashes printable ASCII really is your best bet.
15:37:26 <b_jonas> I usually deal with languages with latin letters, and those have all the combinations as precomposed characters.
15:37:50 <elliott> I'm curious as to how common non-ASCII passwords are though, especially on foreign sites
15:38:04 <elliott> (okay, "foreign" -- non-English)
15:38:18 <fizzie> b_jonas: I vaguely recall something about OS X representing ä with a composing character in file names, and that breaking something.
15:38:29 <elliott> I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of shift-JIS passwords in the world, or such.
15:39:07 <fizzie> elliott: I put SCKE in there so that it could resolve hostnames for "^def ... http://..." but then I never actually finished the URL handler.
15:39:21 <Gregor> b_jonas: I just gave you can example combination that does not exist as a precomposed character X_X
15:39:24 <b_jonas> and that's useful too, it really makes font handling easier.
15:39:37 <b_jonas> Gregor: does anyone use that combination ever?
15:39:46 <b_jonas> like, any language, language in the broad sense?
15:39:49 <elliott> fizzie: so it requires people to implement SCKE just so it can not use it? :p
15:39:57 <elliott> I forget what SCKE even offers.
15:39:58 <Gregor> So, they don't have all the combinations, they have all the combinations used in (Western?) languages.
15:40:12 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, though it's trivial to remove the dependency.
15:40:35 <elliott> fizzie: is the freenode server to connect to listed as an IP?
15:40:48 <b_jonas> that, and all some others too, like American languages, African languages, and some romanizations of Chinese.
15:40:57 <fizzie> elliott: There's H for gethostbyname and P for poll, and indeed the server to connect to is an IP.
15:41:18 <elliott> fizzie: you should just implement DNS in funge-98...
15:42:30 <fizzie> It'd be hard to figure out the system DNS servers, though I guess it could always default to Google DNS or something.
15:43:21 <elliott> can't you just read /etc/resolv.conf?
15:44:00 <fizzie> That'd be less than portable.
15:44:05 <fizzie> OS X doesn't use it, for example.
15:44:13 <elliott> I have /etc/resolv.conf on this OS X machine.
15:44:22 <fizzie> I guess it might autogenerate one for unportable programs to use?
15:44:23 <elliott> # This file is not used by the host name and address resolution
15:44:23 <elliott> # or the DNS query routing mechanisms used by most processes on
15:44:26 <b_jonas> I don't really know how this unicode normalization stuff works though, I should learn more about it, it's useful for stuff other than passwords
15:44:30 <elliott> # This file is automatically generated.
15:44:42 <fizzie> elliott: Does it have the correct DNS servers in it?
15:45:07 <fizzie> I guess that might work, if there's a fallback.
15:45:21 <elliott> I wonder how you do it on windows
15:45:53 <fizzie> Run "ipconfig /all" and parse the output. :p
15:45:59 <fizzie> (Don't do that, that's not the way.)
15:46:38 <fizzie> Whatever netsh uses to talk to the system, possibly.
15:46:51 <elliott> probably some win32-style api, don't know why I was expecting anything different
15:47:04 <elliott> maybe since windows has /etc/hosts it'll have /etc/resolv.conf!
15:47:28 * b_jonas pulls up http://userguide.icu-project.org/transforms/normalization
15:47:41 <fizzie> WMI, apparently: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms682125(v=vs.85).aspx
15:47:58 <fizzie> Or maybe that's actually for actual DNS servers, now that I look at it more clearly.
15:49:40 <fizzie> Well, there's a System.Net.NetworkInformation API in .NET for it, at least.
15:49:50 <elliott> that's for script-configuring a machine's DNS or something
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15:54:45 <fizzie> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365915(v=vs.85).aspx + the linked list starting from FirstDnsServerAddress member of IP_ADAPTER_ADDRESSES, apparently. (Or the .Net API.)
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16:48:11 <zzo38> I think normalization should not be used in passwords; no translation should be used other than hashing/encryption.
16:51:20 <Gregor> The problem is that security and usability are at odds.
16:51:38 <Gregor> It's easy to say "security always wins" until you have a bug report from someone who can't log in.
16:55:36 <zzo38> I mean even, the password should even be allowed to contain invalid UTF-8 sequences, leading/trailing spaces, etc.
16:57:04 <zzo38> But it could also be made an option which is stored with the password, so that when a "forget password" function is used or they call technical support, it can be fixed in that way if requested.
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17:33:29 <Lymia> <zzo38> I mean even, the password should even be allowed to contain invalid UTF-8 sequences, leading/trailing spaces, etc.
17:33:45 <Lymia> Encoding normalization is probably worth it, considering people might log in from different browsers...
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17:37:14 <elliott> now I'm wondering how many password fields accept arbitrary UTF-8 but don't normalise it
17:37:53 <zzo38> Lymia: I think it should be an account option, perhaps.
17:38:48 <Lymia> Only if the site is aimed at techenical users.
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17:57:08 <mroman> that way you can DoS someone out of his account
17:57:13 <mroman> by making a failed attempt every 10min
17:58:16 <elliott> if you're ferring to NAT, that was already addressed in the logs
17:58:37 <elliott> btw, it seems weird to call this kind of scheme impractical when it's already very widely-deployed by any major website that uses passwords
18:00:14 <mroman> I know some major website require captchas after failed attempts with the same (account, IP)
18:00:14 <elliott> ... http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-10-14#152523oerjan ?
18:00:19 <mroman> but which major side completely blocks login?
18:00:49 <mroman> I don't see there anything about NAT
18:01:44 <elliott> and then I gave a solution that covers NAT...?
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18:02:01 <elliott> ...sorry, I'm just not interested in arguing about passwords with you any more. it's no fun.
18:02:32 <elliott> InvalidCo: your website is, uh, quite something
18:03:03 <mroman> <elliott> it is practical to limit (acount,IP) to one attempt every 10 minutes.
18:03:36 <elliott> mroman: well, I also meant the lines after it. please, I'm tired of this...
18:04:43 <elliott> (btw, at least apple do the lockout thing, at least post-iCloud compromise)
18:04:53 <InvalidCo> fizzie: I got fed up with the stuck up guys at #lisp and viznut told me about this channel
18:04:57 <elliott> InvalidCo: well, maybe makkara.org isn't your site. it's in your hostname though
18:05:47 <InvalidCo> I think this is one of his favorites http://sipulitee.makkara.org/
18:07:02 <InvalidCo> I wish I could claim ownership or have at least contributed to that site, but alas, I just have a shell on the same server
18:09:05 <fizzie> mroman: MediaWiki default is to limit to 5 attempts per 5 minutes for a particular (IP, username) pair, for the record.
18:11:40 <fizzie> Every Scheme thing I try on anagolf ends up hitting some sort of version difference between their Gauche and my Gauche, even though the differences are something like 0.0.3 version numbers. :/
18:12:40 <fizzie> (Okay, admittedly their 0.9.1 is from four years ago.)
18:14:02 <elliott> speaking of scheme, R7RS-small came out, right?
18:14:14 <elliott> it seems to have been quietly sort-of-announced but then forgotten about (and with no webpages updated about it)
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18:15:47 <fizzie> I think only Scheme implementors have really cared.
18:16:22 <elliott> not even http://www.scheme-reports.org/ or http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage has it
18:16:34 <elliott> ok, http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki has it, but did the formal announcement even happen?
18:16:46 <elliott> all of those but the first have it
18:17:29 <fizzie> The scheme-reports.org site seems to indeed have died.
18:18:02 <elliott> I swear I read something about how some kind of internal politics or something prevented a proper announcement of it.
18:18:10 <fizzie> InvalidCo: http://golf.shinh.org/
18:18:12 <InvalidCo> I can only find IRC logs and spanish(?) golf clubs through google
18:18:23 <fizzie> It's not the most googleable term.
18:18:47 <elliott> well, http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4844 at least.
18:19:02 <elliott> I think we might be the only people who call it anagolf. the channel is anagol after all
18:19:34 <fizzie> I blame the rest of the channel for getting me used to that term.
18:20:24 <tromp> anagol is the golfed version of anagolf
18:22:56 <Melvar> Hmm, does anyone here use the term “pacman-complete”?
18:23:29 <elliott> Melvar: my first thought was something that provided bash/zsh completion for the pacman package manager :/
18:24:36 <Melvar> It’s supposed to be a term describing programming languages sufficiently powerful to write a pacman game in.
18:25:40 <mroman> fizzie: That sounds like a reasonable compromise
18:26:06 <InvalidCo> Melvar: are languages such as brainfuck excluded from the definition?
18:26:15 <mroman> As long as you have no malicious "Hehe, I can lock out your account all day long" user in your network.
18:26:29 <InvalidCo> and is it on the grounds of not having a graphical output?
18:26:39 <mroman> (as long as both are in that network)
18:26:43 <elliott> I don't understand why fizzie's compromise is reasonable but my identical compromise wasn't. :/
18:26:50 <elliott> Melvar: oh, my next thought was a language that's at least as computationally hard as pacman
18:26:55 <elliott> along the lines of minesweeper being NP-complete
18:27:02 <mroman> elliott: I didn't say it's unreasonable
18:27:15 <mroman> It's just vulnerable to lock-out attacks on other user's accounts.
18:27:44 <mroman> Like in public schools network.
18:28:04 <elliott> everything is vulnerable if you have some malware on your system inputting fake passwords for your account all the time
18:28:11 <mroman> If you know the account name of someone you'd like to lock out just make some failed login attempts every now and then and the victim can't use the site for that period.
18:28:55 <Melvar> InvalidCo: It’s not particularly rigorous, but roughly yes. Basically, it’s supposed to call attention to turing-completeness being not as much of a deal as is sometimes made of it in the context of programming languages.
18:29:24 <mroman> elliott: Some companies have proxies for their employees
18:30:01 <mroman> You can just lock every co-worker out if you wan't to if you block (account, IP)
18:30:05 <elliott> mroman: you can also get anyone on your network blocked from editing wikipedia by vandalising a lot!
18:30:14 <elliott> how can wikipedia stand to use such a vulnerable system
18:30:22 <mroman> That's why I'd prefer other systems.
18:30:33 <mroman> elliott: It's obviously not such a huge deal.
18:30:59 <mroman> at worst you can make a co-worker not accessing his gmail account while at work
18:31:00 <InvalidCo> Melvar: have you seen the brainfuck demo?
18:31:22 <InvalidCo> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=51989
18:31:25 <mroman> which sucks if you're said co-worker and you want to access your e-mail. but otherwise?
18:32:05 <InvalidCo> iirc the only change to the interpreter code was a special byte to mark the "end" of a screen
18:32:22 <InvalidCo> but that was a last-minute edit at the party it was released at
18:32:30 <InvalidCo> so I'm not sure if it's really necessary
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18:34:54 <Melvar> InvalidCo: Right. I’m aware you can get almost any such thing done if you’re determined. The actual reason for the term may be people saying total programming languages are unuseful because they’re not turing complete.
18:37:40 <Melvar> (I am from the idris community and run idris-bot here, and it is said to be a big deal that there is a space invaders written in a dependently typed language (totality checking is however optional for things that don’t show up in types).)
18:38:39 <Melvar> quintopia: Optionally outside of types.
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18:40:36 <elliott> pacman is not known to be in the same complexity class as space invaders!
18:40:40 <Melvar> You can mark things as total, covering, or partial, and the totality checker will complain at you if you try to compile something that is marked total but it couldn’t tell that it was.
18:41:09 <quintopia> Melvar: how would you ensure that it recognizes it as total?
18:41:10 <Melvar> elliott: No, merely theorized.
18:41:42 <Melvar> quintopia: Use structural recursion.
18:41:56 <ais523> happy five Australian Mailman mailing list reminders day!
18:42:42 <ais523> it shouldn't be, Australian reminders day is the last of each month
18:42:49 <ais523> but apparently a mail relay on yoyo got stuck, or something
18:42:55 <ais523> so I got five reminders all at once
18:44:16 <elliott> ais523: it's because it's a leap year
18:44:22 <mroman> on a completely unrelated Subject my first finnish book arrived.
18:44:44 <mroman> not the one I hoped would arrive first
18:46:50 <mroman> this is the german translation of that book
18:51:44 <mroman> this vocal harmony thing
18:57:06 <b_jonas> lol "it's because it's a leap year"
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19:12:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fugue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40616&oldid=40615 * Ais523 * (+594) how I made the Hello World
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19:15:12 <fizzie> It's a sadly believable reason.
19:15:36 <ais523> well 2014 isn't a leap year ;-)
19:16:47 <fizzie> There was a recent daily-wtf entry that would have said it is, IIRC.
19:17:31 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:17:40 <fizzie> "lastDigit(currentDate->year()) == 0 || lastDigit(currentDate->year()) == 4 || lastDigit(currentDate->year()) == 8"
19:18:18 <fizzie> It's a good one, it worked from 1999 to 2011.
19:20:16 <ais523> it thinks 2010 is a leap year, it isn't
19:20:23 <ais523> so it worked from 1999 to 2009
19:20:45 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, that's still a full decade.
19:21:51 <ais523> you could get it working 1997 to 2011 by comparing the year to 2000, 2004, and 2008
19:22:57 <fizzie> Though according to the article, it did in fact apparently crash on March 1, 2014, since what it *does* on "Feb 29" of its "leap year" is while (currentDate->dayOfYear() == 60) { currentDate = new Date(); } -- assuming it is a true story.
19:23:21 <fizzie> Perhaps it was just put in place later than 2010, and hence never actually worked.
19:24:15 <Melvar> Or it hung back then, but was just restarted and never investigated when it came up ok.
19:25:32 <elliott> fizzie: wait, it used 100% CPU for an entire day on leap years?
19:26:49 <fizzie> The article claims it caused the server to run out of memory; it's C++, no GC for the new Date();, apparently.
19:27:08 <elliott> oh, I assumed javascript or java or something and mentally blocked out the ->s
19:27:29 <fizzie> And it's inside a while (!done) { try { ... } catch (...) {} } loop so that it won't give up when the allocation fails, either.
19:27:45 <fizzie> Uh, where the second ellipsis is a literal one.
19:30:23 <elliott> will it fail on linux? I guess it'll probably just get killed
19:31:30 <fizzie> fungot: Why didn't you tell me about this really obvious one-byte saving in the a000217 .b98?
19:31:31 <fungot> fizzie: are you part of the capitalist model that if you say you were. good for him :) how do you like? that is there any effective example of code that had code in common, presumably you could transform application there.
19:31:51 <fizzie> Sounds like it'd get killed by the OOM killer. But maybe there's an automatic restart.
19:36:00 <fizzie> It's likely non-optimal overall (I didn't stare at this long), but I liked the fingerprint loading in http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?A006520/fizzie_1413056620
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19:59:37 <fungot> olsner: not only writes but uses fnord phrases like " memory register" :)
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20:04:47 <fizzie> That's the most fnord phrase there is.
20:04:51 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
20:05:04 <fizzie> fungot: Tell me something about the SID registers?
20:05:04 <fungot> fizzie: pound 28 8 56 t 84 29 9 57 u 85 30: 58 v 86 31 59 w 87
20:05:14 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure that's entirely relevant?
20:05:15 <fungot> fizzie: sprite-display data collision: this is equivalent to the gate bit, or 504 dots in the msb register ( 53272, d018) being changed. the
20:05:42 <InvalidCo> I like the fact that you spelled out the integer equivalent, too :D
20:05:59 <olsner> the c64 style seems bad at punctuation and making working sentences
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20:06:32 <fizzie> It was based on some OCR'd scan of some old C64 book, and I don't think I did very much work on unwrapping the lines back to entire sentences.
20:06:38 <InvalidCo> nobody uses integer values for registers in NES documentation
20:06:39 <fizzie> Plus there were quite a lot of originally-tabular data.
20:06:51 <InvalidCo> but of course, there's a lot less registers... I think?
20:07:04 <InvalidCo> and the registers are all aligned to start on hexadecimal even numbers
20:07:25 <InvalidCo> except for DMC and some other register, I forget which one that was
20:07:30 <fizzie> fungot: How about a BASIC program listing too?
20:07:30 <fungot> fizzie: the following sequence: pha, 233, 247, 255 plot, 273, 290 plp, 233, 247, 255
20:08:35 <fizzie> fungot: I think you're a bit confused.
20:08:36 <fungot> fizzie: the harmonic 3 squared is 9 ( 3 off in the
20:08:52 <fizzie> Can't argue with 3 squared being 9, though.
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20:09:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:10:49 <fizzie> Different training datasets for the babbling.
20:10:55 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
20:11:07 <InvalidCo> fungot: what do I do with a cockatrice corpse?
20:11:07 <fungot> InvalidCo: they say that wiping its face again. he is generally more picturesque than useful. picturesque meant he decided after careful observation of the swan, by carl sandburg)
20:11:21 <fizzie> Don't wipe the face of the cockatrice corpse, just as a hint.
20:11:43 <AndoDaan> the irc option, is that based on #esoteric's logs?
20:11:47 <fungot> InvalidCo: they say that the unicorn horn rule is if it was the owl, and all that remained of the english language)
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20:11:58 <fizzie> AndoDaan: #esoteric and #scheme and a little bit of #douglasadams from IRCnet.
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20:12:09 <InvalidCo> I don't think your bot would make a very good lisp programmer...
20:12:34 <fizzie> InvalidCo: The Perl prototype babbler balances parentheses properly, it's just this Befunge version that doesn't (yet) implement it.
20:12:46 <fizzie> ("yet" meaning it's been on the TODO list for five years or so.)
20:14:22 <fizzie> It'd be just a stack and a map of open/close token numbers, but Befunge's much easier to write than edit.
20:14:57 <olsner> just rewrite fungot then, how hard can it be
20:14:57 <fungot> olsner: wakizashi: the irish celts. one hob mentioned by henderson, was the fact that some shopkeepers consider gems to be quite enchanting. the food, not me.' then the large group of piranhas will attack.
20:15:49 <fizzie> Writing it in the first place was perhaps more tedious than hard per se.
20:15:52 <InvalidCo> fizzie: how big is the source code?
20:16:05 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:16:47 <fizzie> There's also some random documentation there, and supporting material, like for training those babbling styles.
20:17:47 <InvalidCo> haha, this thing seriously implements IRC?
20:18:05 <fizzie> It'd be cheating not to. :)
20:18:39 <InvalidCo> does this also have a brainfuck interpreter in it?
20:18:47 <fizzie> Yes, and an Underload interpreter.
20:18:57 <InvalidCo> and not only that, but a brainfuck bytecode compiler? ::D
20:19:38 <fizzie> It's not much of a compiler, it doesn't even translate +++++--- to +2. (It does +5-3 instead.)
20:19:57 <ais523> BF Joust has forever broken my mental BF optimizer :-(
20:20:46 <fizzie> I'm not sure how many other esolang-bots we've had that actually speak IRC, though at least a couple. Most of them do the actual networking with something like netcat, but that's probably allowable, given that most languages aren't so well-endowed when it comes to features.
20:21:26 <fizzie> Was thutubot written in Thue, or am I mixing up?
20:24:45 <mroman> Does Funge-98 have "Functions/Procedures"?
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20:25:08 <mroman> I still have this idea hanging around of having several layers of 2D code
20:25:13 <mroman> where you can call code in other layers
20:25:27 <mroman> in order to allow to create reusable "procedures"
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20:27:49 <fizzie> There's a SUBR fingerprint.
20:28:15 <fizzie> That provides number-indexed functions with a separate call/return stack, IIRC.
20:28:29 <fizzie> Or possibly it was in the shared stack.
20:29:11 <fizzie> Yes, it's in the main stack. Well, anyway.
20:29:51 <fizzie> You're not the first person to think about "structured befunge", but it possibly becomes too practical easily.
20:31:11 <fizzie> fungot does a couple of "functions" by having code blocks near the bottom of the program that return along a "spine" at the right edge that dispatches based on a "return address" value the "caller" pushed before the "arguments".
20:31:11 <fungot> fizzie: a glowing potion does not waver. he wore a dark-brown velvet jacket with a flash and drilled the metal as if his soul went to see genuine morporkian life the slave market, the yumi is made of a pearly whiteness; but these luxuriances only formed a more horrid contrast with his lance on his hand, and the latter with just a dead cockatrice is just a touch.
20:32:04 <fizzie> That way both the ^def and ^bf commands (and the calling of a ^def'd thing) can reuse the same bf machinery, for example.
20:34:54 <fizzie> Kind of similar to what you sometimes see when people do "functions" in sed, by just putting some "return address" indicator (e.g. in the hold space), and having the functions "return" by a "b dispatcher" where dispatcher is a giant block of conditional jumps to every label that could be a return address.
20:35:49 <fizzie> Or the good old "line numbers in C with a giant switch" thing.
20:36:10 <ais523> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BackFlip was based on someone else's proposal for a function call syntax for Befunge
20:36:27 <ais523> although I could use a simpler syntax as I didn't have to worry about clashes with existing Befunge syntax
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21:13:31 <fizzie> The SUBR fingerprint just has C (x1 ... xn Va n -- Va Vd x1 ... xn) which pops n, a target vector, and n cells; then pushes the return vector, current delta and those n cells, sets IP position to the popped value and delta to (1, 0, 0, ...).
21:14:11 <fizzie> And a corresponding R (Va Vd x1 ... xn n -- x1 ... xn) that can be used to return, with n cells of return values.
21:15:23 <fizzie> Plus a non-stack-affecting general jump J (possibly for convenience or tail calls?) and a concept of absolute/relative mode which determines whether the J/C addresses are absolute or relative.
21:22:32 <fizzie> mroman: There's also the FOBJ fingerprint, which I don't know if anyone has ever used. It's "object-oriented"; the "classes" are trefunge files, where each Z layer is a "method"; the I command pops a string, constructs an object from the corresponding file, and pushes a reference to it; the M command pops a method index (integer), an object reference and some arguments, and then runs that code; return is by that code doing @.
21:23:19 <fizzie> And the object state is of course the fungespace; if you I the same file again, the returned object reference refers to a new clean fungespace.
21:24:21 <Taneb> Well, I'm not entering this IOCCC
21:24:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure how widely supported that is, since neither CCBI nor cfunge support FOBJ. It's one of the (many) Rc/Funge-defined ones.
21:25:59 <ais523> Taneb: I've decided to wait until next year
21:26:05 <ais523> need to get this program working really well
21:26:19 <Taneb> Is there a limit about when you're allowed to write the program?
21:27:22 <fizzie> I don't think so, if you never publish it.
21:28:45 <fizzie> "You are STRONGLY encouraged to submit a previously unpublished and original entry." But nothing about when it was written.
21:29:05 <fizzie> Of course you run the risk of them substantially changing the rules.
21:29:10 <fizzie> (Maybe not a big risk.)
21:31:29 <Taneb> Is there a program length limit?
21:31:58 <fizzie> Yes, and it's reasonably small.
21:32:18 <fizzie> "The size of your program source must be <= 4096 bytes in length. When your program source is fed as input to the current IOCCC size tool, and the IOCCC size tool -i command line option is used, the value printed should be <= 2053."
21:33:03 <ais523> the IOCCC size tool is full of exploits, and I have the strong impression that most of them are intentional
21:34:08 <b_jonas> they admit in their guidelines that their rules in general are full of holes
21:34:11 <ais523> so the 4KiB limit is probably the more meaningful one
21:34:26 <b_jonas> both are meaningful I think
21:35:34 <b_jonas> http://www.de.ioccc.org/2014/guidelines.txt says "We do realize that there are holes in the rules, and invite entries to attempt to exploit them. ... and then plug the hole next year. Even so, we will attempt to use the smallest plug needed, if not smaller."
21:38:32 <tromp> 4KB/2053B is pretty generous; i used only 952/650B for my entry
21:38:50 <Taneb> tromp, I have an over-ambitious idea
21:40:29 <tromp> i didn't enter this year either
21:40:41 <b_jonas> of course, being shorter is an advantage for an entry
21:40:48 <tromp> have some ideas for next year though
21:41:04 <b_jonas> (they say this in the guidelines too)
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21:49:44 <elliott> ais523: what kind of holes? oh, right, you won't tell us
21:50:15 <ais523> there's one I'm hoping isn't exploited so that I can use it next year
21:50:27 <ais523> the traditional one is to encode data as long strings full of whitespace, braces, and semicolons
21:50:30 <ais523> I don't think they patched that one yet
21:50:56 <Taneb> Yeah, I think my idea is too ambitious to get round most sensible file size limits
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21:52:25 <tromp> can you write it in 1400B of BLC, Taneb:-?
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21:55:17 <Taneb> tromp, I don't know
21:55:21 <Taneb> I haven't actually tied
21:55:30 <Taneb> It just feels so ambitious...
21:56:29 <tromp> save it for 2020 then...
22:00:01 <Taneb> Or I could try and write it, then see how long it is...
22:00:24 <tromp> would be nice to see a fully featured cryptocurrency in ioccc
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22:20:36 <elliott> has anyone ever exploited whatever they run the ioccc entries on with an entry
22:20:51 <elliott> they seem old-fashioned enough to maybe not use a VM
22:21:35 <b_jonas> elliott: it's hard to tell whether anyone had done that, because they're completely secretive
22:21:55 <elliott> b_jonas: surely it'd win :)
22:22:02 <elliott> (as long as it wasn't /malicious/)
22:22:29 <elliott> I suppose a program that makes itself win would be hard
22:22:36 <elliott> since there's probably no super formal process
22:22:50 <elliott> maybe an entry that emails the rest of the judges saying hey this one is great :p
22:23:14 <b_jonas> aren't they meeting in person for the judging?
22:23:22 <b_jonas> there were some photos about food they're eating on twitter
22:23:32 <b_jonas> they might use emails as well, but it gets tricky
22:24:41 <elliott> entry that orders them pizza
22:25:05 <elliott> get location + transfer bitcoins
22:26:13 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to try Hackintosh in a VM :/
22:27:25 <newsham> https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu/tree/master#README
22:27:37 <newsham> sgeo: i've run older versions in vmware.
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22:27:58 <newsham> had some trouble getting modern version to work, but i hear it works in oracle's VM
22:29:28 <Sgeo> It's... not legal though, I think. Although I really don't want to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars just to try out an interesting OS
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22:39:20 <ais523> <kibwen> A long time ago I managed to sneak a patch into the stdlib that overloaded + on Options, specifically to make the following FizzBuzz implementation possible [...]
22:40:21 <Sgeo> So, when profiling, I found 97% of the ticks were in libc... I have no idea how to diagnose that :/
22:40:51 <ais523> Sgeo: get a debug-symbols version of libc
22:41:05 <ais523> most systems don't provide them by default, but do provide a way to get hold of them
22:41:35 <Sgeo> Will the V8 profiler recognize that? Also, I don't have root on the system I want to profile on
22:41:41 <ais523> although, tbh, the problem is likely that you're calling into libc repeatedly in a tight loop
22:42:06 <Sgeo> ais523: if the profiler indicated what function was doing that, that would be helpful. Either I'm misreading it or it's not doing that
22:42:34 <ais523> Sgeo: you want a profiler that tracks the call graph, although you probably already have one
22:42:45 <ais523> although, hmm, "V8"? isn't that a JS library?
22:42:52 <Sgeo> It's a JS engine
22:43:13 <ais523> interpreted languages are a huge pain to profile, except by tools specifically targeted at one language and one implementation of it
22:43:14 <Sgeo> This is a Node.js program, specifically, a Grunt script
22:43:28 <Sgeo> Node has a --prof option
22:43:35 <ais523> because an interpreter's codepaths look much the same regardless of what it's interpreting
22:43:52 <ais523> after a point you just have to go improve the profiler
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22:45:42 <oerjan> <ais523> so I got five reminders all at once <-- me too, i mentioned it on ##nomic but no one else seemed awake
22:46:09 <Sgeo> Did anyone olist yet?
22:46:12 <ais523> the thing about backup being down
22:46:14 <HackEgo> olist (964): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
22:46:24 <ais523> is that you don't notice, because you only use backup when the main lists are down
22:51:15 <oerjan> ais523: hm someone should make a profiler that interpreters can hook into
22:51:42 <ais523> that seems like the sort of thing the valgrind people would do
22:51:48 <shachaf> Sgeo: Thanks! I'll look at it when I'm at a non-phone computer.
22:53:55 <boily> Sgeo: thanks for perpetuating the tradition!
22:56:20 <elliott> ais523: is including debug symbols for libc really that rare?
22:56:38 <shachaf> imo this had better be a three-page update
22:56:57 <ais523> elliott: every OS that I know the situation on (which is Ubuntu and Windows) has a separate libc symbols download rather than bundling them
22:57:03 <ais523> although, the libc situation on Windows is awful
22:57:10 <elliott> windows is a bad point of comparison :)
22:57:26 <ais523> Microsoft's position is that the libc they ship is for internal kernel use only; they provide separate libcs for application use, that you're meant to ship with your application
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22:57:58 <boily> is it me, or is that begging for footholes?
22:58:03 <ais523> however, the license prevents those libcs being shipped for the purpose of linking other programs against them, (i.e. you can only ship them for the purpose of linking the program you ship to them)
22:58:24 <ais523> also, there isn't enough public information about the Windows kernel interface to write your own libc for Windows
22:58:39 <elliott> IIRC it's rather bad to use the included one
22:58:46 <elliott> like, its interface changes
22:58:50 <ais523> so perhaps unsurprisingly, mingw links against the kernel one, because it has nothing else it can link to
22:59:14 <ais523> elliott: I think it's more a case of its interface is supposed to change, but mingw has successfully managed to lock its interface by virtue of weight of pre-existing software
22:59:14 <elliott> it would be fine for mingw to script downloading the libc, right?
22:59:38 <ais523> hmm, I think that might work, but there are EULAs to accept
22:59:50 <ais523> people would be used to that on Windows though
23:00:06 <zzo38> They are making the ReactOS maybe can figure out Windows kernel better enough to write ReactOS, they can also make the libc file too.
23:00:16 <elliott> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2014/04/11/10516280.aspx mm
23:00:23 <elliott> ais523: corefonts are meant to include an EULA
23:00:28 <elliott> and linux distributions package them anyway
23:00:35 <elliott> I think debian makes you hit enter in debconf or something to agree to it
23:00:49 <ais523> elliott: they have an accept/reject EULA on install, indeed
23:01:00 <ais523> unsurprisingly if you know me, I rejected the EULA and uninstalled
23:01:25 <elliott> why did you try installing it in the first place?
23:01:33 <elliott> also, since when do you not use proprietary software?
23:01:59 -!- Sorella has joined.
23:02:07 <ais523> elliott: I didn't reject it for the reason of not using proprietary software
23:02:21 <ais523> I rejected it to reduce the chance of people forcing unwanted fonts on me on web pages and the like
23:02:37 <ais523> also, it was a dependency of something, maybe just a recommends
23:02:48 -!- Sorella has quit (Changing host).
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23:16:16 <zzo38> I tried to compress the Zork I Z-machine story file with gzip but it resulted in 62355 bytes file (the uncompressed file is 86838 bytes long).
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23:19:58 <zzo38> However one thing in DEFLATE is that it expects 8-bit data; if the file contains 5-bit data then it might not work quite as well?
23:20:47 <ais523> zzo38: you could try padding out each byte to 8 bits and then using an octet-based compression algorithm
23:21:15 <ais523> the good ones will huffman code the bytes anyway and so the extra padding won't contribute more than a few bytes extra size across the whole file, if it's deterministic (e.g. all zeroes)
23:21:43 <elliott> zzo38: z-machine is 5-bit?
23:21:55 <zzo38> Is there a way to adapt it so that it can work? The problem is that only some of the data in the file uses 5-bits and others are 8-bits or 16-bits, and you cannot always determine ahead of time what is what.
23:22:05 <zzo38> elliott: Only partially it is.
23:24:28 <zzo38> There is a way to guess where the 5-bit data is but it isn't always reliable, so the compression needs to work even if it guesses wrong.
23:27:55 <zzo38> The 5-bit data is used for packed strings; it is packed three 5-bit codes into two bytes, and the high bit is set if there are no more groups of three 5-bit codes remaining.
23:33:43 <newsham> [12:31] < Sgeo> It's... not legal though, I think. Although I really don't want to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars just to try out an interesting OS
23:34:17 <newsham> but if you bought your own copy of osx, it might be considered legal in many jurisdictions
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23:40:52 <elliott> good luck buying a copy of OS X without a mac though
23:41:28 <ais523> are there VPS providers who host OS X-based VMs?
23:41:37 <ais523> I know there are for Windows and Linux
23:42:33 <elliott> it would be kinda slow unless anyone wrote drivers for paravirtualisation
23:42:45 <elliott> well, I guess it might not be too bad
23:42:55 <elliott> there is a mac mini colo company though, that's probably the closest thing
23:42:58 <elliott> but god knows why you'd want to
23:43:16 <newsham> cant you download osx from any itunes account?
23:43:55 <elliott> newsham: I don't know if anyone's reverse-engineered the app store or if it does any fancy checks
23:44:15 <elliott> for one, OS X doesn't actually cost money now, and I doubt apple would like to hand out disk images to just anyone
23:44:33 <elliott> (okay, "disk images". kids these days etc.)
23:45:12 <elliott> I guess if you have a developer account you can probably get stuff?? pre-releases, at least
23:45:40 <elliott> honestly why not just pirate it at that point, you're doing something they don't like and they wouldn't get any money anyway :p
23:48:07 <newsham> i was talking about versions that were for sale on itunes
23:48:16 <newsham> when new versions came out
23:48:33 <elliott> apple sell old versions? huh
23:48:46 <newsham> i dont know if they still do...
23:48:51 <newsham> i havent tried this in a efw years at least
23:48:56 * nys buy hypercard from apple
23:49:02 <elliott> well, OS X upgrades are free and distributed via the app store these days
23:49:04 <Sgeo> Ick, I really don't want to torrent
23:49:29 <elliott> newsham: I guess you can log into your iTunes account on a friend's computer, download the OS X upgrade, and put it on a USB stick
23:49:59 <elliott> still violating the EULA but it's probably the least illegal method
23:50:03 <Sgeo> If I had a keyboard and mouse and monitor I could just buy a Mac Mini
23:50:16 <Sgeo> Well, I do have a mouse
23:50:25 <newsham> at least somewhat defensible if you were ever in court
23:50:25 <int-e> newsham: I was going to complain about your clock being fast, but the tunes logs are even more out of phase.
23:50:30 <elliott> you can afford a mac mini but not a keyboard and mouse and monitor?
23:50:39 <Sgeo> I can't use my current laptop's monitor as keyboard and monitor, can I?
23:50:48 <Sgeo> elliott: I don't have space in this cramped apartment
23:51:10 <Sgeo> \I also don't have space for a second laptop unless I only use one primarily
23:51:20 <int-e> newsham: going by the 12:31 timestamp for something that happened before xx:30, yes.
23:51:55 <Sgeo> My laptop, if not on my lap, sits on a small table next to the couch. There's barely enough room for a mouse to move horizontally
23:52:27 <elliott> Sgeo: maybe you can borrow a keyboard and monitor and mouse long enough to set up VNC and then use your laptop
23:52:34 <elliott> not exactly a pretty or smooth solution
23:54:00 <Sgeo> http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/laptop/3456298/use-your-laptop-as-second-monitor/ but this is Windows specific :(
23:54:24 <Sgeo> Also not what I want
23:55:14 <zzo38> Why does DEFLATE Huffman trees contain unused symbols?
23:55:28 <Sgeo> Also I get bored of languages and environments easily. Really a good idea to spend money on something I may get bored of?
23:55:46 <elliott> do you spend your money on anything else? :p
23:56:06 <Sgeo> I'd say food, but food is inherently boring
23:56:11 <Sgeo> Necessary, but boring
00:02:11 <madbr> wouldn't it be phởn? :3
00:02:32 <boily> chicken is chicken. it is everything. to deny it is to distance oneself from the true path. without denial, one can't find the Chicken.
00:02:51 <HackEgo> Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
00:03:11 <Sgeo> Hmm, having a menu bar at the top means tabbed browsers don't have infinitely high tabs
00:03:16 <Sgeo> I think I would hate that
00:04:07 <madbr> HackEgo : 100 points to anyone who can pronounce that :D
00:04:43 <elliott> Sgeo: afaik only chrome does
00:04:45 <boily> I tried to pronounce a few vietnamese words. I abysmally can't.
00:04:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: what!! that's barely an update
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00:04:49 <elliott> and even then I think it doesn't on linux
00:04:57 <elliott> other browsers have stuff closer to the top
00:05:29 <Sgeo> elliott: Firefox does on Windows these days
00:05:38 <Sgeo> They're trying to copy the Chrome chrome it seems
00:05:49 <elliott> does the click target actually reach the very top pixel of the screen?
00:05:59 <elliott> anyway really you have to manoeuvre horizontally to pick a tab anyway...
00:06:20 <boily> madbr: btw, do you happen to be a vietnamese soup connoisseur?
00:06:25 <Sgeo> elliott: seems so (re click target reaching top of screen)
00:06:54 <Sgeo> I wonder how many people on Mac realize closing window doesn't close application
00:07:09 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
00:07:16 <Sgeo> I know we've had product people at the company get confused by that, thinking they restarted the browser when they didn't
00:08:15 <madbr> boily : well, I like scarfing it down yes :D
00:08:43 <elliott> Sgeo: it's rather obvious when the app isn't pinned to the dock
00:09:07 <elliott> also, some (even apple) apps do close when you close the window, and it's not always obvious why one would follow one behaviour :/
00:09:25 <ais523> I think the idea is meant to be that it doesn't matter whether the application has any windows open or not
00:09:31 <ais523> the problem being that this is a false statement
00:09:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you see the paper I linked to above?
00:09:48 <ais523> Windows 8 Metro has exactly the same issue
00:10:28 <elliott> ais523: OS X explicitly has a concept of "open but with no windows", unlike Windows
00:10:31 <madbr> boily : now you're making me want it x_x
00:10:34 <elliott> it's just weakened it recently
00:10:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't recall.
00:10:52 <ais523> elliott: Windows has a state of "open but with no windows" but it's a pain to interact with
00:10:55 <elliott> System Preferences and the App Store and Contacts and Notes close when you close their sole window. Maps and Reminders don't.
00:10:58 <boily> madbr: what are your approximate coördinates? do you live in a soup-friendly city?
00:11:03 <ais523> you can see the process in task manager, but it's hard to do anything to it, other than kill it
00:11:13 <elliott> neither does iBooks, despite it being basically like the App Store except for ebooks
00:11:17 <shachaf> boily: Is that the new question?
00:11:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you know about the X -o F(X) notion of derivative?
00:11:33 <elliott> err... iBooks stays open when you close its window, until you focus another app
00:11:46 <madbr> I have multiple choices for pho :D
00:12:15 <boily> shachaf: I just tried to subtly slide it into the conversation :P
00:12:35 <oerjan> shachaf: no, and i don't think my brain wants to know.
00:12:35 <boily> madbr: attends un peu, toi. viens pas me dire que tu restes à Montréal aussi.
00:12:56 <boily> j'ai comme une impression de déjà vu...
00:13:37 <elliott> boily: did you ever work out the answer to the question you were asking the questions for?
00:14:01 <boily> elliott: >_>'... <_<... I... kinda stumbled upon the maths.
00:14:10 <elliott> wasn't there an online thing to calculate it
00:14:12 <shachaf> oerjan: but you're my only hope for tangent spaces
00:14:25 <boily> elliott: there's an online thing for that?
00:14:33 <elliott> what was it you were calculating again?
00:14:39 <madbr> boily : je sais pas si on se connait
00:14:47 <boily> elliott: the center of mass of the chännel.
00:15:25 <boily> madbr: ça se peut. la dernière fois qu'un autre montréalais s'est enfargé dans le channel ça s'est adonné que c'était un ami à mon frère.
00:15:27 <elliott> http://calculator.tutorvista.com/center-of-mass-calculator.html guess this doesn't really help
00:15:32 <oerjan> shachaf: lasciate ogni speranza
00:15:36 <elliott> whatever, just pay a grad student to do it
00:15:49 <boily> I know just the right grad student for the task!
00:15:55 <boily> (paying grads? since when?)
00:16:07 <elliott> I seem to remember we plotted points on a globe with some tool based on our geographic coordinates or something at some point.
00:18:10 <oerjan> boily: montreal is the new hexham
00:18:42 <boily> oerjan: yup, and it's disturbing.
00:20:18 <madbr> boily : hmm, faudrait voir si on a pas un millieu en common d'abord
00:21:51 <shachaf> oerjan: At least X -o F(X) makes sense, right?
00:21:59 <shachaf> It takes an X and puts it into a structure somewhere.
00:22:11 <boily> madbr: quel genre de milieu?
00:22:29 <madbr> moi j'ai genre la demoscene de montreal (et les trucs connexes comme la chiptune), le foulab, la bédé québécoise, euhh...
00:22:53 <boily> ooooh, y'a une scene à mourial? ah bin!
00:23:01 <madbr> une année particulière des gens en génie logiciel à l'université laval
00:23:15 <boily> j'ai fait mon bac en génie informatique à laval.
00:23:58 <boily> oerjan: disturbing I said? more like very disquieting, terrifying, canadianing.
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00:24:36 <oerjan> ok this does it, i'll put the whole log through GT...
00:24:37 <madbr> connais-tu joel bouchard lamontagne?
00:24:41 <GeekDude> I'm trying to implement the mandelbrot set without using any floats. I happen to be very bad at this, apparently
00:25:11 <madbr> bon, probablement pas de connection d'abord
00:25:27 <madbr> GeekDude : trying to make it run on an ARM?
00:25:28 <boily> GeekDude: how can you mandel without floats? isn't it the point of having enough precision to plot precise colours?
00:25:48 <GeekDude> Trying to implement it in piet, actually, with an ascii output
00:26:11 <GeekDude> boily: The point is that fractals are cool
00:26:31 <boily> madbr: je suis dans la scène plus boardgaming, et le fameux Douteux du lundi soir au Broue.
00:27:04 <boily> GeekDude: indeed. I remember having lost quite some time doing a haskell program to output a postscript file with L-systems.
00:27:22 <boily> (also animating slices of strange attractors. that one was quite nice!)
00:27:49 <madbr> ok je vais très occasionellement au douteux :3
00:28:01 <madbr> en fait faudrait que j'y aille plus souvent
00:29:14 <boily> GeekDude: do you know where I could be posting an avi file on the intarwebs and have it play?
00:29:39 <madbr> genre y aller avec mon cousin (qui habite pas loin non plus)
00:30:13 <elliott> avis could contain anything
00:30:43 <boily> GeekDude: if you ever heard a sudden facepalm just about now, it wasn't me. probably even only an auditory illusion.
00:31:16 <GeekDude> That sound was me reading about snapchat's recent
00:31:47 <boily> (meanwhile, 13 minutes remaining while it uploads to dropbox...)
00:34:57 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether i find your original french or google's attempted translation most readable. also it does strange things to the parts in english...
00:38:01 <boily> oerjan: parts in English?
00:39:09 <oerjan> <oerjan> ok this does it, i'll put the whole log through GT...
00:40:06 <boily> ah. aaaaah. heh ^^
00:40:07 <GeekDude> aha! no floats http://i.imgur.com/jKexwd3.png
00:40:54 <GeekDude> The code for it https://db.tt/Z7smLgTF
00:46:20 <boily> oerjan: GT is weird. why is it capitalizing whole random words?
00:46:52 <shachaf> you accidentally set the target language to german hth
00:46:54 <boily> GeekDude: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/video.avi
00:48:13 <GeekDude> IT's not playing. Either it needs to download more or its bork
00:49:55 <boily> it's hideoulsy uncompressed.
00:50:46 <elliott> does it work in, like, mplaye
00:50:54 <boily> it works in mplayer.
00:51:03 <elliott> why did you upload it in this format. just curious.
00:52:29 <boily> I can't remember. the file is from...
00:53:27 <elliott> congrats, it won't even play in mpv
00:53:32 <boily> (and it probably is even older, as it sounds like it's been copied over to my desktop from my university laptop.)
00:54:04 <boily> of a bunch of dejong attractors.
00:54:16 <boily> http://paulbourke.net/fractals/peterdejong/
00:56:02 <elliott> compiling mplayer so I can play some random uncompressed video...
00:56:49 <boily> GeekDude: DLA is one of my favourite methods to generate fractals. 'tis sad it's so slow...
01:03:00 <GeekDude> Peeerfect http://i.imgur.com/qOKek1o.png
01:04:00 <GeekDude> I just have to convert to a piet program now
01:04:18 <GeekDude> I see a lot of ROLLing in my future
01:04:45 <GeekDude> I could just cheat and use the C-like compiler
01:05:02 <boily> and against the grain of the esoteric spirit.
01:05:21 <elliott> boily: that was so not worth it
01:05:34 <GeekDude> I wrote my own piet interpreter and editor (This is the editor) http://i.imgur.com/W5pTmdk.png
01:06:02 <ais523> GeekDude: I'm disappointed, I was hoping that'd be the source code rather than a screenshot
01:06:14 <GeekDude> http://github.com/G33kDude/Piet
01:06:23 <GeekDude> I'm in the list of piet third party resources :)
01:06:30 <ais523> but now it turns out it isn't even written in piet :-(
01:06:47 <ais523> although, AutoHotKey, seriously?
01:07:07 <boily> elliott: so what. it's the compiling that counts, or something like that.
01:07:23 <boily> (unless you are referring to my very stupid and bad pun, then it's always worth it.)
01:08:21 <GeekDude> I don't think I caught the pun
01:08:41 * boily shows himself away.
01:09:21 <GeekDude> http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/2j5929/10132014_challenge_184_easy_smart_stack_list/cl8qe5g
01:09:56 <elliott> reasons not to use autohotkey: people will pester you constantly about programming in autohotkey, because seriously
01:10:16 <ais523> elliott: but here, "seriously?" is a complement
01:10:24 <elliott> https://github.com/G33kDude/MyRC/blob/master/Socket.ahk oh good god
01:10:42 <GeekDude> That was written by an especially crazy german fellow
01:10:46 <elliott> oh, at least you didn't write that
01:10:48 <dianne> is "oh good god" a compliment too
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01:11:10 <GeekDude> elliott: Before that was a token based system
01:11:19 <GeekDude> and before that was a label based token based system
01:11:30 <ais523> there's a point where you move from impressed to seriously scared
01:11:32 <GeekDude> This is the best iteration of the autohotkey sockets library yet
01:12:15 <GeekDude> ais523: Does the fully fledged scintilla scripts editor written in autohotkey count for "seriously scared"? That one wasn't by me, but I do beta testing for it
01:13:09 <ais523> GeekDude: no, merely programming something massive in an utterly unsuitable language still just counts as impressive
01:13:42 <GeekDude> Speaking of which, I need to finish implementing the channel switcher in my RichEdit based IRC bot
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01:14:11 <GeekDude> As opposed to maestrith's (scintilla editor author) scintilla based IRC client
01:14:22 <GeekDude> I figured richedit was simpler and better suited to my use
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01:35:52 <GeekDude> Converting this into a bitmap is going to be buckets of fun
01:36:14 <GeekDude> I'm up to 51 lines of psudeo-assembly
01:38:11 <GeekDude> and haven't even finished the qualifier for the while statement
01:38:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jasp]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40617 * 70.114.225.120 * (+2897) A minimal Scheme using JSON in place of S-Expressions
01:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jasp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40618&oldid=40617 * 70.114.225.120 * (+8) /* Jasp */
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01:56:45 <zzo38> In order to try to make a format for a program to decide how to arrange blocks (which may include gaps and references) into a file, I made up: http://sprunge.us/aVQa I am trying to decide: [1] If this is good so far [2] How the format of the "Edit" structure should be made
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01:58:00 <zzo38> (Or even if they are really needed at all)
02:01:38 <MDude> What are the blocks for?
02:03:33 <zzo38> They would be blocks of data which are placed into a file. For example the blocks might be text strings or subroutines or it might be something else
02:04:42 <zzo38> Since, some file formats use pointer of addresses of blocks so it might help to make them to overlap and fill in gaps with other blocks to make it optimal
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02:23:33 <shachaf> Taneb: oh, you invented d-modules, right?
02:23:56 <shachaf> i bet you can answer all my questions about tangent bundles and all those things
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03:44:14 <GeekDude> madbr: I managed to do something at least
03:44:21 <GeekDude> http://i.imgur.com/bEQHgCF.png
03:44:34 <GeekDude> which means that it's executing, at least
03:44:39 <GeekDude> It doesn't seem to be doing what I want though
03:45:07 <Bike> those are definitely stars.
03:45:27 <madbr> what language is that?
03:45:50 <GeekDude> So, piet, underneath autohotkey
03:46:57 <GeekDude> Just made a debug view in npiet
03:47:07 <GeekDude> Right off the bat I forgot to push 13
03:58:39 <GeekDude> It appears I've forgotten to pop a value somewhere
04:15:48 <ais523> >-[-[-<]>>+<]+> (15, 5) wrapping
04:15:50 <ais523> >-[-[-<]>>+<]> (14, 5) wrapping
04:16:00 <ais523> I was going to say "these can't both be right"
04:16:10 <ais523> but actually they can, the top one has a useless use of +
04:16:17 <ais523> so presumably it got generated by some sort of script?
04:17:02 <ais523> also for some reason we have 8 different ways to write 77
04:17:25 <Bike> that's pretty good. does that give you a (13, 5) solution?
04:19:08 <Sgeo> Can I store things that are not UI related in nib files?
04:19:27 <ais523> Bike: the (14, 5) is the (15, 5) with the UUo+ removed
04:19:41 <ais523> so someone's already done the obvious optimization
04:19:46 <Bike> oh, wait nvm yeah
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04:39:39 <GeekDude> madbr: http://i.imgur.com/ptcY3Y2.png
04:40:00 <GeekDude> Source code: http://i.imgur.com/lBn7KGy.png
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05:22:14 <Sgeo> Apparently Active Worlds has a Mac version these days
05:36:09 <Sgeo> Wish Apple was making money by selling the OS rather than hardware... the software's what I'm interested in
05:36:38 <Sgeo> Maybe with 'official' hardware that they guarantee a best experience with, but allow (but disclaim as likely lower quality) other hardware
05:37:01 <Sgeo> They don't seem to allow their customers to choose a lower 'quality' experience
05:38:30 <elliott> everyone knows disclaimers prevent people from having reaction to things
05:39:00 <Sgeo> People are a problem
05:39:30 <elliott> everyone also knows apple aren't very deliberately positioning themselves as higher-quality and upmarket and not spending resources catering to creating cheaper, lower-quality things
05:41:35 <Sgeo> I still don't understand the iPhone size thing. I thought they were keeping things the same resolution, or a multiple of it, to make development easier
05:41:45 <Sgeo> Now there's all different size iPhones
05:42:00 <Sgeo> Guess could still keep same resolution on different size devices
05:42:06 <Sgeo> But... could that be slightly ugly?
05:42:22 <elliott> http://www.paintcodeapp.com/news/iphone-6-screens-demystified
05:42:55 <elliott> the number of "points" was already changed: iphone I think 5 increased the height of the screen
05:43:13 <elliott> (and there is already ipad, in terms of multiple ios "point" resolutions)
05:44:44 <fizzie> This is exactly the most relevant question you could ask, but why is the "a" on the "Points: The content is defined mathematically --" row translucent on the "Original iPhone" but opaque on the iPhone sixes?
05:45:19 <elliott> fizzie: they only added backgrounds in the iphone 3gs
05:45:25 <elliott> before that all iphones were transparent.
05:49:13 <Sgeo> Notification Center is a really confusing name. Too similar to NSNotificationCenter, which afaik is unrelated
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07:09:06 <mroman> AutohotKit reminds me of AutoIt
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07:11:05 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/public/csvHelper.au3 <- I've used lots of AutoIt in my windows-administrator and software-deployment past :)
07:11:50 <mroman> We had several tools for OS-migration user-migration etc. written in AutoIt
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07:14:28 <mroman> ais523: Does MediaWiki have a "Blame" feature?
07:14:48 <ais523> mroman: not an easy one, as far as I know
07:15:00 <ais523> there's enough data stored to calculate it, but I don't know if anything actually does the calculation
07:16:16 <mroman> Grepping history isn't possible as well I guess
07:16:41 <mroman> (like grepping for who changed foobaz to foobar)
07:18:00 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if someone had written a blame calculator by now
07:18:10 <ais523> although it'd probably be on the toolserver, thus wikimedia-specific
07:19:38 <mroman> I might have added the 14b for 33
07:20:12 <mroman> hm no. That one got removed
07:20:22 <mroman> because it leaves the tape to the left
07:22:05 <mroman> Performance wise it's not very wise to use these constants :)
07:22:19 <mroman> some of the small solutions I found spend like 5k cycles
07:23:02 <ais523> what if they get optimized into constants?
07:23:34 <mroman> I know some bf implementations can do that
07:24:01 <ais523> balanced loop polynomializing is the normal standard optimization for this sort of thing
07:24:09 <ais523> but the really crazy constants use unbalanced loops
07:25:35 <fizzie> Heh, got a very strongly worded letter from IEEE about some over-length page charges that were allegedly due in May.
07:25:49 <fizzie> It mentions "numerous messages" they've sent, none of which I've received.
07:26:06 <fizzie> Wonder where those have all gotten to.
07:26:28 <mroman> ^- is this unbalanced?
07:26:33 <ais523> yes, [-<] is unbalanced
07:26:44 <ais523> the number of < doesn't equal the number of >
07:27:05 <ais523> now I'm interested in BF busy beavers
07:27:06 <mroman> well... but it saves you 3B from the other solutions!
07:27:14 <fizzie> There's that binary search thing that's vaguely blame-like.
07:27:28 <ais523> come to think of it, blame would work poorly on Wikipedia
07:27:31 <ais523> due to all the reverts
07:27:39 <mroman> I used my crunchfuck thingy and a friend of mine who ran it over night to find those constants
07:28:14 <ais523> mroman: was the particular form of that program something that you were explicitly looking for? or did you just try random programs?
07:28:27 <fizzie> The http://wikipedia.ramselehof.de/wikiblame.php?lang=en&article=Esoteric_programming_language thing.
07:28:36 <fizzie> (For Wikipedia, not for our wiki.)
07:29:09 <mroman> ais523: it was an exhaustive search of all combinations of ><.+-[] up to 15B
07:29:33 <mroman> so I generated every variation/combination, checked if it's a legal brainfuck program, then executed it with max 5k cycles
07:29:59 <ais523> so if there are any better sub-15 constants than the ones on the wiki, they run for even more than 5k cycles?
07:30:01 <mroman> however, the interpreter wrapped around on leave-the-tape-to-the-left
07:30:08 <mroman> so some short solutions it found weren't correct
07:30:38 <mroman> which means there might still be solutions <=15B that run in under than 5k cycles
07:30:56 <lifthrasiir> mroman: so to say, any listed solutions which size is <= 15B is proved optimal?
07:31:19 <ais523> lifthrasiir: proved to be optimal within 5k cycles
07:31:42 <mroman> my interpreter had a fixed amount of cells with wrap-around behaviour
07:31:54 <ais523> oh, within 5k cycles and a relatively small number of cells
07:32:07 <ais523> I guess you could just use 5k cells, then lightspeed would mean that the fixed width wouldn't matter
07:32:09 <mroman> My program for example told me 13B 200 +[-->-[-<]>]>
07:32:11 <lifthrasiir> is it hard to classify non-terminating or long-lasting programs automatically, just like what was done with busy beavers?
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07:32:23 <mroman> which I had to correct to >+[-->-[-<]>]> to not leave the tape to the left
07:32:33 <mroman> which means there *could* be another 13B solution to 200
07:33:18 <mroman> ais523: you could fix the leave-tape issue in my crunchfuck.c
07:33:21 <mroman> then run it over night
07:33:46 <mroman> I think up to 15B can be done in a weekend for 5k cycles
07:33:56 <mroman> and it's a single-core program
07:34:05 <ais523> <lifthrasiir> is it hard to classify non-terminating or long-lasting programs automatically ← you're getting /suspiciously/ close to the halting problem, there
07:34:21 <lifthrasiir> of course. but some optimizations can be done.
07:34:54 <lifthrasiir> I suspect some clever generation algorithm can eliminate a whole class of redundant simulations...
07:35:35 <coppro> lifthrasiir: you can certainly eliminate some programs from consideration
07:35:49 <elliott> katla (IIRC?) was once on a project to find the shortest BF program whose termination status is unknown
07:36:03 <coppro> for instance, you can pick some N, and if a program gets stuck in a loop in N or fewer steps, then it doesn't terminate
07:36:10 <coppro> if it halts in N or fewer steps, it obviously does
07:36:20 <elliott> by doing a lot of simulation to weed out quick-halting ones, more advanced analysis to deduce some of the rest as non-halting, and manual review for what's left, I believe
07:36:23 <ais523> knowing the busy beaver behaviour of BF would be very helpful
07:36:41 <ais523> but probably just as difficult as solving the original problem
07:36:47 <elliott> I think it would be an interesting project; I wonder how long programs would be before running into a program that this channel can't figure out the halting behaviour of
07:37:27 <elliott> intuitively I'd guess that we could figure any given, like, length 10 BF programs easily
07:37:52 <elliott> but I doubt you have to go too high before finding something that stumps humans
07:37:58 <ais523> even 10's long enough to write programs where it'd at least take us several minutes, I think
07:38:20 <elliott> like, what is the kolgomorov complexity of checking the goldbach conjecture?
07:38:50 <Sgeo> Must... not... spend... hundreds of dollars on a desktop environment I will probably get bored of
07:38:57 <ais523> the problem is, finding programs with ambiguous halt behaviour is harder than trying to work out halt behaviour manually
07:39:00 <ais523> Sgeo: don't, seriously
07:39:03 <AndoDaan> mroman: the implementation you use, is it 256 non-wrap, and 30K cells wrap-around?
07:40:01 <Sgeo> What's the closest equivalent to an OSX-like environment in the Linux world? KDE?
07:40:07 <elliott> ais523: if you can execute a lot of BF programs in parallel you can run a lot of them for a lot of cycles pretty easily, and filtering out trivial infinite loops is easy
07:40:21 <Sgeo> KDE is all C++y though :/
07:40:33 <ais523> Sgeo: Ubuntu Unity has something that works almost identically to the OS X dock
07:40:37 <elliott> you'd need more advanced analysis on top of that for length 10, but with dedicated humans getting through whatever's left after that...
07:40:41 <ais523> except for pinning files
07:41:00 <ais523> which is completely different
07:41:06 <Sgeo> I'm thinking more in terms of development
07:41:09 <ais523> but then, Windows 7 is pretty similar to both
07:41:29 <ais523> in terms of development, OS X uses its own entire programming languages (Objective-C and Swift) that nobody else uses
07:43:54 <Sgeo> What about libraries and programs interacting with other programs in the DE?
07:44:04 <Sgeo> A DE with an equivalent of AppleScript, for example
07:45:01 <ais523> KDE does most of that stuff through dbus
07:45:12 <elliott> if sgeo wants to buy a mac v. ais523 doesn't want sgeo to buy a mac carries on long enough it will be worth the cost of a mac for me to stop having to see it. what i'm saying is, keep arguing if you want sgeo to receive a free mac
07:45:13 <ais523> I haven't found a way to make most Gnome programs scriptable at all
07:45:32 <ais523> elliott: atm we're discussing Linux
07:45:42 <ais523> although, hmm, we were having an ontopic conversation before this
07:46:42 <Sgeo> They sometimes have Macs at libraries, right?
07:46:51 <Sgeo> I still want one in a VM though, and don't trust BitTorrent
07:47:14 <ais523> hmm, I'm wondering if this is reaching the point where it's impossible to give Sgeo good advice because he's Sgeo
07:47:20 <elliott> what don't you trust about bittorrent, exactly
07:48:11 <ais523> elliott: it worries network administrators, annoys ISPs, and you have to at least trust the other end to give you the file you want (like with an HTTP or FTP download)
07:48:38 <Sgeo> Anyone could easily be monitoring who's downloading the file
07:48:51 <Sgeo> Rather than just one server (and anyone in between if http)
07:49:02 <Sgeo> "Smalltalk-based pure object-oriented environment to work with Mac OS X software." this sounds appealing
07:49:32 <ais523> Smalltalk + interacting with anything outside Smalltalk sounds /appealing/?
07:49:40 <ais523> remember, it was my disgust at the situation that lead me to invent Feather
07:49:42 <ais523> Feather, of all things!
07:49:48 <elliott> even in america i'm pretty sure you never get more than an isp letter for first violation
07:49:48 <ais523> this needs more exclamation marks
07:50:22 <elliott> of course private trackers exist
07:50:35 <elliott> Sgeo: also, anyone between you and any machine you talk to can monitor any unencrypted communication
07:50:44 <elliott> that's kind of how the internet works
07:50:58 * elliott runs some traceroutes for fun and profit
07:51:25 <elliott> (and downloading some known file over https isn't really opaque; the size is enough to give it away a lot of the time)
07:51:33 <Sgeo> But it might be easier for spying entities to connect to a tracker than to MITM/work with company/ISP with MITP capability
07:51:55 <Sgeo> Or at least, that's what I keep thinking. Maybe that's not accurate
07:52:07 <elliott> Sgeo: have you seen all the internet routing accidents?
07:52:17 <elliott> where random ASes say "hey, I serve [gigantic block of IPs] now"
07:52:31 <elliott> and a ton of .govs suddenly get routed through china (seriously, this happened recently)?
07:52:38 <ais523> well, we know from the Prenda Law stuff that there are some highly incompetent people who can monitor a tracker in such a way that they accidentally make all the downloads from their honeypot legal, but not intercept HTTP
07:53:27 <elliott> (there is some level of filtering done to routing announcements. but not enough to prevent regular disasters like that. the internet's routing is based on trust, even more than, like, the CA system)
07:53:53 <ais523> elliott: the amount of filtering used increases every time something like this happens
07:53:56 <ais523> which is quite frequently
07:54:16 <ais523> there was that time a while back where a government decided to block YouTube by blackholing its IP
07:54:23 <elliott> ais523: sure, but AFAIK it doesn't help many hops later
07:54:24 <ais523> and the block leaked quite some distance beyond national borders
07:54:43 <elliott> and you don't need disasters this dramatic to do things
07:55:47 <Sgeo> Assuming that Intel Graphics is still a euphemism for suck, the only Mac notebook with decent graphics is $2499
07:56:22 <elliott> so are regular intel graphics, up to a point
07:56:43 <elliott> also, don't you, like, have a computer with a graphics card already?
07:56:44 <ais523> I actually seek out intel graphics because the Linux drivers have better packaging
07:56:57 <ais523> the nvidia packaging is really obnoxious when it goes wrong
07:58:14 <Sgeo> elliott: I'm thinking if I were to start switching to Mac for some insane reason
07:59:45 <Sgeo> (this is not particularly likely at this point)
07:59:47 <mroman> AndoDaan: It had 256 wrap-around and 256 cells
07:59:48 <elliott> maybe you should try a platform before making a decision like that, given that the added expense of doing so kind of pales in comparison to how much it'd cost you anyway, if you require discrete graphics.
08:00:04 <mroman> some incredibly short solution used all those 256 cells :)
08:00:10 <mroman> and wrapped around memory a few times
08:04:09 <Sgeo> Wonder if a WINE-like thing for Cocoa would ever be written
08:04:20 <Sgeo> Not requiring recompilation
08:04:46 <elliott> something like that was done, I think, for command-line os x programs
08:04:59 <AndoDaan> ah. ok, thanks. Are you only searching for number constants?
08:05:11 <fizzie> ais523: Re "trust the other end to give you the file you want", surely bittorrent blocks are hash-verified, if you get the torrent file from a reliable source?
08:05:45 <ais523> fizzie: yes but you need someone to give you a reliable version of the hash
08:06:02 <ais523> it's the self-signed cert problem, you can verify that you're communicating with someone securely, but have no idea who it is
08:06:14 <elliott> almost sort of like downloading literally anything
08:06:21 <ais523> I did make that point earlier
08:06:34 <elliott> breaking news: bittorrent unreliable, knowing whether anything or true or not is possible, world collapsing
08:06:44 <elliott> ...er, impossible. but how do you know?
08:06:47 <ais523> ofc, my solution to it is kind-of inevitable if you know me
08:08:03 <fizzie> ais523: Well, you get the torrent files from the corresponding (HTTPS) project websites, I guess.
08:08:25 <Sgeo> I have no way to know whether an OSX I download is genuine OSX. But since it will be in a VM, my level of concern is fairly low
08:08:37 <Sgeo> Assuming I never log into anything ever from the VM
08:08:39 <ais523> fizzie: sure, that'd work, and it's what I use to verify downloads from people like Microsoft
08:09:50 <elliott> Sgeo: if you're able to google "os x [version] hash" and click a lot of links, you can get high levels of certainty you have genuine OS X
08:09:58 <elliott> microsoft even provide official install cd hashes
08:10:03 <elliott> don't think apple do though
08:10:21 <ais523> elliott: Microsoft provide their official install CD for download full stop, though
08:10:27 <Sgeo> But are things like Niresh actually straight OSX? I doubt it
08:10:30 <ais523> just it doesn't work without activation
08:10:31 <elliott> (actually, spoiler, the really useful thing microsoft provide is file sizes, because you can search for them in some torrent search engines (but not file hashes, that I've seen))
08:10:47 <elliott> I guess they realised it was a terrible idea to let literally anyone run windows illegally with zero effort
08:10:53 <ais523> elliott: a couple of days ago someone downloaded their tool for downloading the official install CD, and it worked
08:11:02 <elliott> without an existing windows install?
08:11:07 <ais523> just the link to it is kind-of hidden because their website organization is terrible
08:11:16 <ais523> they had an existing install, it wasn't working
08:11:20 <ais523> needed the download to reinstall
08:11:34 <elliott> okay, well, I mean if you want it illegally like sgeo :p
08:11:55 <ais523> why would I want it illegally?
08:12:04 <Sgeo> I'd be happy to pay for it if only I could put it on this machine in a VM
08:12:20 <ais523> doing things legally wrt closed-source software has almost become a case of malicious compliance for me at this point
08:12:40 <fizzie> What's the situation with Windows licenses and VMs again, can you do that for e.g. all retails versions, or is it special?
08:12:48 <elliott> ais523: you're having a serious problem distinguishing yourself from sgeo
08:13:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm different from him in that our clearly absurd behaviour is in a different direction
08:13:30 <ais523> also, I'm aware that most people consider my behaviour absurd
08:13:43 <elliott> I mean, you're answering things I say wrt sgeo as if they were wrt you :p
08:14:13 <ais523> fizzie: I know there's at least a "each VM counts as a different computer" restriction; IIRC there's no restriction on putting retail on a VM besides that, but I might be remembering wrong
08:14:48 <ais523> elliott: "<elliott> okay, well, I mean if you want it illegally like sgeo :p" was clearly directed at me, you don't refer to someone in the second person and third person in the same sentence
08:14:56 <fizzie> I guess you can't put an OEM copy in a VM because there's no E involved.
08:15:01 <elliott> you're trolling me, right?
08:16:02 <ais523> I wasn't planning to troll you specifically, but I'm tired which gives me a tendency to intentionally drive conversations towards the absurd, which is a subset of trolling the channel generally
08:21:05 <shachaf> I don't think the driving conversations toward the absurd is a subset of trolling.
08:21:11 <Sgeo> I wish Apple event was more googlable
08:22:22 <Sgeo> "tell app "Sketch" to set the x position of rectangle 1 of document "SketchDocOne" to 25"
08:22:27 <Sgeo> AppleScript looks gross
08:24:04 <fizzie> http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/about-licensing/virtualization.aspx#tab=2 er, was this really the optimal way of presenting this information?
08:24:48 <fizzie> (It was all about volume licensing stuff, anyway.)
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08:26:06 <fizzie> "Do I need a Windows VDA subscription license to remotely access my work PC (licensed to run Windows 8.1 Pro) in the office from my home PC (licensed to run Windows 7 Home Premium)?" "The Windows VDA subscription license is not required if you are the single primary user of the licensed device (work PC in the office). In that case, you may remotely access that PC from any device. Non-primary users may access that PC if the remote device is separately lic
08:26:18 <fizzie> I wouldn't even have thought of the question in the first place.
08:27:56 <ais523> <fizzie> http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/about-licensing/virtualization.aspx#tab=2 er, was this really the optimal way of presenting this information? ← what the, seriously?
08:27:56 <Sgeo> "non-polio entereovirus" that makes it sound like polio is an entereovirus
08:28:07 <Sgeo> "non-polio entereovirus" that makes it sound like polio is an entereovirus
08:28:13 <Sgeo> Apparently it is
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08:28:55 <elliott> there's nothing I love more than watching videos about windows licensing.
08:29:13 <elliott> fizzie: got cut off at "if the remote device is separately lic"
08:29:50 <fizzie> -- if the remote device is separately licensed to run Windows 8.1 Pro or the remote device has the active Windows VDA subscription license." these are deep waters
08:30:07 <fizzie> Did something unload my splitlong.pl.
08:32:00 <ais523> AFAICT this video is just text with random animations added to fill space, that don't seem to obey any consistent scheme for conveying information
08:32:46 <ais523> really, this is the second-worst idea in license advertising since the old CLC-INTERCAL license agreement
08:33:48 <ais523> err, license communication?
08:36:44 <ais523> actually, this is pretty worrying too: http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/about-licensing/briefs/winserv2012-rds.aspx
08:36:59 <ais523> not the PDF itself (I haven't read it), but the wrapper page
08:37:09 <elliott> what was the old CLC license, again?
08:37:37 <ais523> I'm not sure, it had to be compiled before use
08:38:14 <ais523> and I don't have a CLC-INTERCAL version with that license agreement, IIRC (or that's old enough to compile it successfully)
08:38:29 <ais523> I guess it was presumably written in IACC?
08:39:19 <fizzie> ais523: Here's how I managed to make the video look by clicking around for a while: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20141015-video.png
08:39:31 <fizzie> It's very informative.
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08:59:14 <elliott> fizzie: that's basically what using windows feels like
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09:05:58 <HackEgo> 138) <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS \ 352) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this wee
09:06:18 <ais523> right, 352 is what I was looking for
09:06:27 <HackEgo> 352) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
09:06:34 <ais523> only one letter got cut off, so…
09:06:48 <coppro> what language was this program written in?
09:06:57 <mroman> how do binary digits work?
09:07:38 <coppro> mroman: the first decimal place is 1/2, the second is 1/4, the third is 1/8, etc
09:07:42 <ais523> coppro: to give some context, this program operated on computable reals with no dynamic storage
09:08:05 <ais523> it's like the worst possible coding style for the problem it was solving, we did it just to prove it was possible
09:08:24 <coppro> please tell me that's in the pdf
09:09:00 <ais523> basically, imagine Haskell except it uses call-by-name not call-by-need, then imagine the optimization nightmare that happens when you try to do list processing
09:10:26 <mroman> is call-by-name implemented by inlining?
09:10:37 <mroman> or are there more advanced techniques?
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09:10:56 <elliott> it's implemented by closure-passing, really
09:11:15 <ais523> in our Verity implementation, it's implemented via dynamic reconnection
09:11:27 <elliott> I meant in general, but yeah
09:11:30 <ais523> basically, think inlining only you have just the one copy of the function and dynamically change where it is in the code
09:11:51 <elliott> that sounds interesting. you should explain fpgas to me sometime :p
09:12:04 <ais523> do you know what a multiplexer is?
09:12:07 <elliott> or, I guess "dynamic reconnection" sounds fancier than it actually is.
09:12:24 <elliott> I was thinking of wires, like, physically moving, except possible somehow.
09:12:32 <elliott> I really should be getting to sleep though.
09:12:33 <ais523> it's basically just and and or gates
09:13:09 <ais523> actually it's surprisingly difficult to get right, and harder to get efficient, with all possible call patterns (including higher-order functions and tuples)
09:13:53 <ais523> trying to optimize out obvious inefficiencies in it is my current project
09:15:34 <mroman> AndoDaan: yes @number constants
09:17:05 <mroman> I guess I could write a multi-threaded variant of crunchfuck
09:17:12 <mroman> that doesn't have the same bug :)
09:17:29 <coppro> man oracle writes such crap
09:17:50 <mroman> then with enough time you can state that every program <15B is optimal for <5k cycles
09:18:00 <ais523> and I'd prefer it if I didn't use the reasoning of "if «single-bit memory location» is 0 here, we have UB, thus it must be 1"
09:18:14 <ais523> I'd prefer to prove that it's 0 (because it will be, in those cases, barring compiler bugs)
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09:49:51 <mroman> the wikidump size doubles every two year or so
09:50:15 <mroman> 2012 it was barely 20MB
09:50:49 <ais523> that's slower than generalized moore's law
09:52:13 <coppro> how complex is it to find the bitwise closure of a set of numbers
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09:54:21 <coppro> closure under bitwise AND, OR, XOR, specifically
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09:55:01 <ais523> that's simple: any bit position where all the numbers are 0, you can only have a 0
09:55:18 <ais523> because you can't apply the operations to bits individually
09:55:26 <ais523> sorry, was in INTERCAL mode for a moment
09:55:46 <coppro> I may just optimize and assume that you can
09:55:55 <coppro> someone else can figure out an efficient way to do this
09:56:03 <ais523> NP-complete, even with just OR you have the subset sum problem
09:56:19 <coppro> I just want the concept patch to go in so that people will support it
09:56:38 <ais523> there might be a shortcut, depending on what you're trying to do
09:56:55 <coppro> ais523: I'm not convinced you can reduce general subset sum to it
09:57:51 <coppro> I'm trying to make clange understand flag type enums so that it won't warn if you assign enum_const_1 | enum_const_3 to an object of enum type
09:58:36 <ais523> coppro: my suggestion would be, check that all the enum constants are powers of 2
09:58:50 <ais523> if so, accept any enum value that happens to contain only bits that are represented by enum constants
09:58:54 <ais523> this is close to what structdesc does
09:59:15 <ais523> also, I thought of the wrong NP-complete problem
09:59:30 <ais523> I was thinking of exact cover
09:59:34 <ais523> which does reduce to that pretty simply
10:00:37 <ais523> how do you prevent multiple uses of the same value?
10:03:13 <ais523> it still feels NP-complete but I'm less sure of a concrete proof
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10:06:58 <coppro> oh, it's a fairly simple reduction from SAT
10:08:07 <coppro> actually wait, without NOT, I'm not sure that works
10:08:17 <coppro> (also I want to rescind XOR from my original specification)
10:08:25 <coppro> I do agree it feels NP-complete
10:13:09 <ais523> you can use the http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_The_Main_Worb trick for that
10:13:15 <ais523> represent any value as two bits, either 01 or 10
10:13:23 <ais523> actually, no, that doesn't obviously work
10:13:29 <ais523> it might help but I'm not sure it does
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10:19:50 <coppro> now I'm curious about what groups subset-sum is NP-complete for
10:22:23 <Jafet> Isn't it trivial to compute enum_1 | enum_3 at compile time
10:23:24 <ais523> Jafet: yes, but it's nontrivial to determine that the resulting value is valid for the enum
10:23:29 <ais523> however, this raises a separate solution
10:23:46 <ais523> why not just not warn if the expression being assigned is made up only of and/or/xor/enumconstant /tokens/?
10:23:47 <Jafet> Aren't enums, you know, enumerated
10:24:08 <ais523> enums as bitfields is a little awkward, indeed
10:24:22 <ais523> but the other alternatives are even less suitable, assuming you want an actual integer rather than a struct
10:41:46 <boily> Jafet: enums are enums, unless you are in the Java world.
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11:14:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boat]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40619&oldid=17005 * 134.225.2.132 * (+3)
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12:29:15 <mroman> "If Your Cloud Vendor Goes Out of Business, Are You Ready?"
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12:35:07 <mroman> They fall down to earth as rain, get soaked up by earth.
12:35:23 <mroman> until the data vapors and starts to build new clouds.
12:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oh is this that whole thing where none of the cloud companies are actually making money
12:38:06 <mroman> They aren't making money?
12:39:47 <mroman> Amazon is losing money apparentely.
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12:46:05 <int-e> doesn't look dramatic
12:47:07 <int-e> they increased their R&D investment by 240M and incurred a loss of 126M in the last quarter.
12:48:50 <fizzie> Was that EC2-specific or across Amazon as a whole?
12:50:19 <fizzie> I have a friend who went from our research group to Amazon's new speech technology thing in Germany a year ago, maybe that 240M was his wages. Then again, maybe not. (But based on conference appearances, they're really expanding that team; maybe it's indicative of some sort of a trend.)
12:50:56 <b_jonas> that always reminds me to http://www.xkcd.com/908/
12:52:10 <mroman> You can rent storage space in my cloud
12:52:18 <mroman> proudly backed up by floppy disks
12:52:32 <mroman> so in case I go belly-up I'll just send you the floppy
12:53:05 <mroman> (No files larger than 1.44MB please)
12:53:27 <fizzie> I hope you have some sort of an escrow account for the mailing costs on the floppy.
12:57:45 <mroman> That's covered by the rent.
13:01:28 <mroman> That's covered by the rent which is transferred partly to some escrow agreement.
13:02:52 <mroman> I can also offer you 0.5kB of inmemory storage
13:03:24 <mroman> with a $1 fine per bit you exceed it
13:03:52 <mroman> (you'll also get 0.5kb per Month)
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13:35:25 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname mroman(use query)
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13:36:30 <oerjan> <coppro> I do agree it feels NP-complete <-- it's not, with or without xor, unless the number of _bits_ is exponentially large.
13:36:31 <fizzie> oerjan: Should that particular list escape the nicknames so that they don't highlight (but you can still see them)?
13:37:24 <fizzie> Oh, does it already do it?
13:37:44 <oerjan> took me a while to get that into HackEgo with sed
13:37:48 <fizzie> I thought I was having an Idea™, but apparently it was just a copy. :/
13:38:52 <oerjan> especially as i didn't want to highlight people while i was doing it
13:38:59 <fizzie> sed 's/./&/g' looks patently silly on first glance, before looking at it closer.
13:39:36 <fizzie> I was about to say that perhaps that's overly escaped, but then I forgot some people have partial nickname highlights, so maybe that's for the best.
13:40:16 <oerjan> if the list gets long enough that it starts overrunning limits, we can rethink it.
13:40:47 <oerjan> i guess just changing . to .. or ... would work.
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13:41:20 <fizzie> My initial instinct would've been ^., but the only partial nick-highlight I know of is at the wrong end for that to work.
13:43:15 <oerjan> technically i also do a partial search when i'm logreading. also at the wrong end.
13:43:30 <fizzie> Perhaps s/^\(.\)\(.*\)\(.\)$/\1\2\3/ but that's both ugly and overly complicated.
13:44:10 <oerjan> oklopol might have an initial one, not that he's here these days
13:45:03 <fizzie> Today we had a departmental lunch at the nearby Turkish place, and people started talking about the aliasing effects visible in the gap pattern of the lampshade.
13:45:17 <fizzie> Made me wonder if it's a frequently asked question there, whether that's intentional or not.
13:46:13 <fizzie> (It's a circular lampshade with this |-shape thin holes going around it, so if you watch through the near and far rims, there's a moiré thing.)
13:47:49 <oerjan> come to think of it, .. and ... won't work because there's at least one person here with a 2-char nick
13:48:15 <fizzie> .. with the \u200b in the middle should work.
13:48:30 <fizzie> You can't meaningfully escape a single-character nick, anyway.
13:48:42 <oerjan> right, but that's a more complicated regexp
13:49:17 <oerjan> indeed, but i don't think they're free on freenode anyway
13:49:31 <fizzie> Right, it'd be s/\(.\)\(.\)/\1\2/g.
13:49:53 <fizzie> The thing where sed regexps are BRE-style with meaningful ()s need \s is quite annoy.
13:50:09 <lambdabot> EFHK 151320Z 03012KT 9999 SCT018 BKN030 04/M00 Q1016 NOSIG
13:50:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 151320Z 17007KT 140V200 CAVOK 11/03 Q1014 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17020KT
13:52:13 <fizzie> Forecast here suggests sub-zero temperatures for the Thu/Fri and Fri/Sat nights. (Which has usually been my cue to stop biking to work.)
13:54:34 <oerjan> coppro: to elaborate, you can find the atoms of the related boolean algebra/lattice in time polynomial in the total number of bits and number of sets to combine
13:55:38 <oerjan> coppro: and then it's just a matter of checking whether the test set is the union of the atoms it contains
13:56:38 <oerjan> hm actually lattice (without xor) is more complicated than algebra, but i _think_ it still holds.
13:57:58 <oerjan> then you need something more than atoms, i guess. oh hm.
13:58:12 <oerjan> ok i'm not entirely sure without xor any more.
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14:10:47 <oerjan> coppro: oh wait it's simple without xor too. let G be your set of generating numbers. For each bit position n, let G_n=intersection{m\in G|n is set in m}, and then M is in the closure iff M == union {G_n | n set in M}.
14:11:28 <oerjan> *n'th bit, in a couple places
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14:12:34 <oerjan> if you _do_ include xor, then just add {(union G) minus m|m\in G} to your generator set first.
14:13:10 <oerjan> (i.e. all the complements relative to the union.)
14:13:42 <oerjan> s/minus/xor/ to keep within the operations given
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14:57:47 <Melvar> < fizzie> The thing where sed regexps are BRE-style with meaningful ()s need \s is quite annoy. – sed -r ?
14:59:15 <fizzie> That wouldn't be POSIXly compliant. But I guess it'd be a reasonable workaround on HackEgo.
15:04:20 <coppro> oerjan: I don't follow
15:04:40 <coppro> M == union {G_n | n set in M}; M is a number, the union is a set
15:06:27 <oerjan> coppro: i may not be distinguishing bit sets and numbers here
15:07:47 <oerjan> coppro: all the sets are also numbers hth
15:08:35 <coppro> oerjan: G_n is not a bit set though
15:08:50 <coppro> it's a set of generators
15:09:03 <oerjan> no, it's the intersection of them
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15:10:33 <oerjan> basically this problem is _about_ bit sets in essence, so the numbers are just confusing
15:10:40 <coppro> oerjan: that doesn't work
15:11:04 <coppro> oh, nvm, you're including AND, right?
15:11:11 <coppro> I thought you were talking about just OR
15:11:44 <oerjan> AND and OR, and optionally XOR
15:12:03 <oerjan> of course if you have OR and XOR, you also have AND
15:12:52 <coppro> ... wait, how do you get AND from OR and XOR if you don't have access to 0?
15:14:30 <oerjan> to get 1, just OR all the generators, this suffices for this purpose.
15:15:09 <oerjan> for this purpose it's true. it's not the true 1 but it works for constructing AND with.
15:15:17 <coppro> oerjan: you'll need to do 0 XOR 0
15:16:02 <coppro> > let x = 5 `xor` 5 in x `xor` x
15:17:49 <oerjan> if you have just OR, it's also simply, just take the union of all the generators contained in your number
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15:34:54 <lambdabot> a(0) = 0, a(n) = a(n-1) XOR n.[0,1,3,0,4,1,7,0,8,1,11,0,12,1,15,0,16,1,19,0,...
15:35:03 <lambdabot> a(0) = 0, a(n) = a(n-1) XOR n.[0,1,3,0,4,1,7,0,8,1,11,0,12,1,15,0,16,1,19,0,...
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15:53:06 <Slereah> Try not recording any scat porn in Africa
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16:12:11 <quintopia> i need to make a language called Blast
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16:15:45 <AndoDaan> center origin for the code, it mixes, reacts and explodes. and where the pieces fly and lie is the program?
16:32:06 <MDude> One time my brother was talking with Comcast over changing around the internet setup at his office.
16:34:14 <MDude> After noticing it on his bill, he was paying $50 a month for "something called Blast", and asked what it was. The person on the other end had no idea.
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18:04:19 <fizzie> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?A006520/teebee_1412040120&oct man, I never think of things like this because I come to Octave from MATLAB, where assignment is definitely not an expression.
18:04:54 <fizzie> (Mine was the two characters longer bitand(1:500,511:-1:12) instead.)
18:05:44 <quintopia> i think i'll stick with matlab anyway
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18:06:22 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JNiY
18:06:46 <fizzie> There have been occasions where MATLAB's restricted syntax has been an annoyance.
18:07:14 <fizzie> Not for including assignments as an expression, except maybe for some sort of while a=... kind of loop perhaps.
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18:10:18 <int-e> the author of this dialog should be shot. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/yesno.png
18:12:23 <int-e> (It's a completely useless deviation from the pervasive "are you sure" template that gives "no" the same meaning as "cancel")
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18:22:57 <fizzie> MATLAB also won't let you subscript an arbitrary expression (except by a really ugly subsref() function call), just a variable.
18:23:10 <fizzie> elliott: It's a Thunderbird/Icedove dialog, I'm pretty sure.
18:23:16 <fizzie> Because I saw it just today.
18:24:03 <Melvar> It looks to be very clear about what the buttons mean.
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19:45:30 <fizzie> I just wasted at least an hour catching up with someone who had beaten my Befunge-93 pocket solution. This golf thing is dangerously addictive. :/
19:48:17 <mroman> fizzie: that's the point of golfing :)
19:50:20 <fizzie> I thought it was just harmless, good, clean fun. :/
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19:55:39 <fizzie> I didn't just catch up, I went past by two bytes *happy*
19:58:16 <Somelauw> i wrote my first brainfuck program to compute fibonacci numbers. it is 451 bytes long and i used some snippets from esolangs.org
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19:59:25 <fizzie> I've been told that both S-Q-L and sequel are acceptable.
19:59:38 <fizzie> "SQL (/ˈɛs kjuː ˈɛl/,[4] or /ˈsiːkwəl/; --"
20:00:06 <Bicyclidine> a guy told me he was working with sequel databases and i had no idea what he was talking about
20:01:23 <fizzie> "SQL, n. Pronunciation: Brit./ɛskjuːˈɛl/ , /ˈsiːkw(ə)l/ , U.S. /ˌɛsˌkjuˈɛl/ , /ˈsikw(ə)l/" says OED.
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20:02:49 <fizzie> To be fair, it is a derivative of SEQUEL ("Structured English Query Language"), if you look at the history.
20:03:11 <fizzie> "The acronym SEQUEL was later changed to SQL because "SEQUEL" was a trademark of the UK-based Hawker Siddeley aircraft company."
20:03:24 <Bicyclidine> oh, here i was thinking it was always just structured query.
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20:10:55 <mroman> fizzie: it is good fun
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20:14:16 <fizzie> Actually, didn't we have
20:14:23 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball
20:14:26 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
20:14:31 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
20:14:41 <fizzie> Speaking of Fibonacci and brainfuck.
20:15:40 <mroman> ^unscramble ^scramble fibonacci
20:16:20 <fizzie> Perhaps there should be a ^. command that'd chain two, though that sounds like a hassle.
20:16:23 <fungot> hi there i there there there here ere re e
20:16:42 <fungot> Thanks, fungot. Thungot.
20:16:54 <fizzie> I wrote that when HackEgo was being down.
20:17:06 <fizzie> And it wasn't entirely trivial to replace the exact logic of `thanks.
20:17:08 <fungot> >2,[>,]+15[>+6>+7>+3>+2<4-]>-6.>-.-7.+13.-3.+8.>-.>+2.<5[<]>[.>]>3+2.>.<3.<2[<]>[[-<2+>+>]+<-97[-4[-4[-6[-6[-4[>-<[-]]]]]]]>[[>]>2-11.<3[<]<.>3[.>]>3.>5][-]>]<3[[<]>2[.>]>5.>2]
20:17:19 <fizzie> I'm sure it could be simplified, but still.
20:17:32 <fungot> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
20:17:37 <fungot> I think you mean @tell instead?
20:17:51 <fungot> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
20:18:01 <fizzie> Just someone playing around, I think.
20:18:17 <fizzie> \n and \r get filtered to '.' though.
20:18:35 <fungot> >2,[<2+>2[-<2[->+2<]>[-<+>]>],]<2.
20:19:07 <fizzie> "tmp" is what I redefine to test the bytecode compilation occasionally.
20:19:25 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
20:19:26 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
20:19:26 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
20:19:26 <myndzi> |\ c.c /^\ |\| | |\ c.c >\ | /< | >\ c.c /´\
20:19:26 <myndzi> /| c.c >\ >\| | /`\ c.c /`\ | |\|/`\ c.c /<
20:19:47 <fizzie> That looks rather duplicatey.
20:20:08 <mroman> Great. This will be helpful once I plan to spam this channel
20:20:11 <fizzie> The invasion of the four-legged mutants.
20:20:35 <elliott> oblig. http://neilblr.com/post/58490668107
20:21:01 <mroman> not sure what it matches there
20:21:59 <mroman> Everytime I use some of that myndzi will spam /o\
20:22:36 <mroman> I wont be useng / o\ and \ o / then anymore
20:25:53 <fizzie> The hands (\m/ \m/) can be somewhat picky w.r.t. positioning, from what I recall.
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20:26:01 <fizzie> Still with the legs, I see.
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20:27:25 <fizzie> 'test' seems to output 2**n, where n is the sum of the raw byte values of all input.
20:28:00 <fizzie> (That was with \x06 as the input, leading to 2**6 = 64 = '@'.)
20:28:40 <fizzie> Not sure what it's for. Not terribly useful on fungot in particular, since all other inputs except \x00 .. \x07 output nothing, and you can't input \x00 over IRC.
20:28:40 <fungot> fizzie: a ring of conflict is a long-drawn-out affair. fresh whole tripe calls for a woman dare not leave her baby alone in the distance, incongruent with the creation of a pine tree about a piece of v-shaped metal with a sling and a rock mole is a terrible thing to waste.
20:28:58 <fizzie> Best description of a ring of conflict, though.
20:29:25 <fizzie> Also I hope we will all agree that a rock mole is a terrible thing to waste.
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22:06:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 152150Z 10011KT CAVOK 06/M01 Q1015 RMK WIND 670FT 12011KT
22:06:44 <oerjan> supposedly will dip below zero tomorrow
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22:11:25 <lambdabot> EFHK 152150Z 04012KT 9999 FEW025 BKN030 02/M02 Q1016 NOSIG
22:11:53 <fizzie> Supposedly shouldn't this night, but the next.
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22:13:26 <Somelauw> I wrote my first fibonacci in brainfuck http://paste.eu.pn/index.php?show=1812
22:16:37 <oerjan> ^bf >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>>>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]]<<++++++[-<++++++++>]<.[-]<<[ ...
22:16:50 <oerjan> just a little too long
22:17:45 <oerjan> btw if you used that wiki-code for printing numbers, i think fungot has a better one
22:17:45 <fungot> oerjan: they say that nobody expects a unicorn horn means you've missed the bunch. turning round again with a magical herald's staff consisting of intertwined serpents, the titans, the watch was long and cold.' there was no closer to the sea; there's no food.
22:17:51 <fungot> >>,[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+10.
22:17:58 <Somelauw> i used wiki code for printing numbers
22:18:06 <Somelauw> but i wrote my own for parsing the input
22:18:09 <oerjan> (fungot uses run-length encoding)
22:18:09 <fungot> oerjan: they say that a polymorph trap is magic and magic armour which no sword in hand; long time the manxome foe he sought so rested he by the roadside for ninety-nine years is nearly up, so perfectly constructed that no one really subscribes to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
22:18:14 <Somelauw> probably not the shortest one possible
22:18:23 <fungot> Somelauw: shad*: shades are undead creatures. a tree, unless it was one of a number of people who said they had encountered a sasquatch inn near the tang, becoming more pronounced towards the point.
22:18:40 <oerjan> oh they're both that way
22:18:52 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
22:19:06 <oerjan> fizzie: i think you forgot to save after you removed the newline
22:19:17 <fizzie> Did I remove the newline? I don't think I did that.
22:19:26 <fizzie> I just advocated using ord in place of asc.
22:19:41 <fizzie> Now that you mention it, I could just replace the latter with the former.
22:20:32 <fizzie> ^def asc bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>,]
22:20:43 <fungot> >2,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>2,]
22:20:56 <fizzie> As an extra benefit, the initial >> in ord got turned into a proper >2.
22:21:06 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:21:19 <fizzie> (There used to be a bug in the parser that didn't handle >>> right.)
22:21:33 <Somelauw> asc doesn't print anything for me
22:21:38 <oerjan> ^str 0 set >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>>>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]]<<++++++[-<++++++++>]
22:21:38 <fungot> Set: >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>>>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]]<<++++++[-
22:21:42 <Somelauw> but maybe the numbers have a special meaning
22:22:04 <fizzie> Somelauw: It's a simple encoding for repetition, +2 is ++ and >4 is >>>> and so on.
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22:22:28 <oerjan> ^str 0 add <.[-]<<[-<+>]<
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22:23:01 <fizzie> oerjan: You just overwrote an existing fib, thanks for that.
22:23:04 <Somelauw> hmm, i'm writing my own generator which expands 2+ into '++'
22:23:15 <oerjan> fizzie: well you can ^reload
22:23:30 <fizzie> In theory. I always feel slightly iffy about it.
22:23:36 <fizzie> Let's live dangerously.
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22:23:39 <Bicyclidine> Somelauw: maybe you should use the "standard" bfjoust encoding.
22:23:44 <fizzie> The existing one doesn't parse input, so it's less fun.
22:23:55 <fungot> >+38[-38<[->2+<2]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>+10<[->3+<3]>3[<2[<+>2+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<2[-]<[-<+>]<>,-10]<>2+<2[->2<[->2+<2]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<2[->2+>+<3]>3[-<3+>3]<[-<+>]<3]>4+10<2[->+>-[>+>2]>[+[-<+>]>+>2]<6]>2[-]>3+10<[->-[>+>2]>[+[-<+>]>+>2]<5]>[-]>2[>+6[-<+8>]<.<2+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]+6[->+8<]>.[-]]<2+6[-<+8>]<.[-]<2[-<+>]<
22:23:57 <fizzie> I have a feeling ^reload doesn't load the commands.
22:24:06 <oerjan> fizzie: oops that's stupid
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22:24:41 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
22:24:54 <fizzie> In retrospect, that probably should be called "fibs", and "fib" should be an input-parsing one.
22:25:11 <fizzie> Also that should use spaces in place of newlines. And so on and so forth.
22:25:32 <oerjan> fizzie: clearly you need fungot's save to use a proper repository, like HackEgo
22:25:33 <fungot> oerjan: i was just thinking that most westerners would find that very hard to find new ways of writing things. i'd better just stick with cmuscheme.el for both
22:25:58 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm going to go with fungot's opinion on that.
22:25:59 <fungot> fizzie: are you sure? public janitors?). it's syntactic sugar over such alists ( and the built-in macro is called?" " to hang from").
22:26:20 <fizzie> Though "to hang from" is a stupid macro name.
22:27:29 <oerjan> anyway, maybe fungot isn't the right thing for testing this new fib
22:27:30 <fungot> oerjan: that's levenshtein distance in unary.
22:27:42 <oerjan> `fetch http://paste.eu.pn/?dl=1812
22:27:45 <HackEgo> 2014-10-15 22:27:17 URL:http://paste.eu.pn/?dl=1812 [457/457] -> "index.html?dl=1812" [1]
22:27:46 <Somelauw> @bf +17 >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
22:28:19 <oerjan> Somelauw: the numbers are just used by fungot on output, they're not part of bf proper
22:28:19 <fungot> oerjan: i see, thanx :p ( i guess). the last cdr is () non-atomic?
22:29:24 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:29:56 <fizzie> They're not even part of fungot's own ^bf input, while they arguably should.
22:29:57 <fungot> fizzie: sarahbot later tell gnomon i gave the link early, said " lisp is the whole thing will be flattened out to 133.
22:30:13 <oerjan> `run echo <<<(echo hi)
22:30:14 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo <<<(echo hi)'
22:31:01 <oerjan> `run interp bf `echo '!9'; cat "index.html?dl=1812" -`
22:31:46 <oerjan> `run interp bf `echo '!3'; cat "index.html?dl=1812" -`
22:32:11 <oerjan> oh wait the paste already has the !9 in it
22:32:58 <oerjan> `run sed -i '/!9/d' "index.html?dl=1812"
22:33:17 <oerjan> `cat index.html?dl=1812
22:33:17 <HackEgo> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>>>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]
22:33:24 <oerjan> `wc index.html?dl=1812
22:33:24 <HackEgo> 2 1 455 index.html?dl=1812
22:33:35 <oerjan> `run interp bf `echo '!3'; cat "index.html?dl=1812"`
22:34:23 <oerjan> `run interp bf ',[.,]!hi'
22:34:33 <oerjan> `run interp 'bf ,[.,]!hi'
22:35:25 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
22:35:44 <oerjan> i thought EgoBot's !bf supported ! but maybe it didn't
22:35:49 -!- mihow has joined.
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22:37:38 <oerjan> `interp bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:37:47 <oerjan> `interp bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:37:54 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit).
22:38:25 <oerjan> i think it may have trouble with missing input
22:38:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/interp
22:39:32 <fizzie> `run echo 'DIY saves the day' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo ',[.,]')
22:40:14 <oerjan> istr it used not to be
22:40:16 <Somelauw> what's the diff between ord and asc, except that ord runs in a loop, there seem to be small differences between the code itself as well, like one ends on 10+ and the other on 32+
22:40:28 <FireFly> fungot: any wise words today?
22:40:29 <fungot> FireFly: thanks, and i'd expect that that second fnord one. hope i didn't forget about the whole thing
22:40:51 <fizzie> Somelauw: There are no other differences, and I just replaced asc with ord since the latter is handier.
22:40:54 <fungot> >2,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>2,]
22:40:57 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
22:41:15 <fizzie> They're the same now, modulo the >> bug.
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22:41:41 <fizzie> ^def ord bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>,]
22:41:47 <Somelauw> one thing which is better is that unlike the one on the wiki this one works for number >>256
22:42:41 <Somelauw> another difference with the wiki, is that this one destroys the number
22:42:44 <fizzie> Somelauw: I got it from http://mazonka.com/brainf/ I believe.
22:42:58 <fizzie> The "base expansion" code.
22:43:01 <oerjan> `run echo '9' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <"index.html?dl=1812"
22:43:12 <Somelauw> not a problems, since i can copy
22:43:25 <oerjan> `run echo '9' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 "index.html?dl=1812"
22:44:48 <oerjan> `run echo '99' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 "index.html?dl=1812"
22:45:04 <oerjan> I DON'T THINK THAT WORKS FOR >>256
22:46:57 <fizzie> `run echo '99' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi64 "index.html?dl=1812"
22:47:10 <fizzie> Not optimilized for 64-bit cells, I take it?
22:47:34 <fizzie> Perhaps that was a bit too much to ask, anyhow.
22:47:51 <fizzie> `run echo '20' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi64 "index.html?dl=1812"
22:48:34 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
22:49:01 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
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22:49:26 <fizzie> `run unidecode $(echo '20' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi64 "index.html?dl=1812")
22:49:27 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/usr/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, err
22:49:35 <fizzie> Well, that's even worse.
22:49:40 <fizzie> Not well-formed UTF-8, presumably.
22:50:13 <oerjan> i thought irssi would default to that windows charset then
22:51:57 <Sgeo> This translation also has a Japanese transliteration. They're rendering the English as "lu li la" and the Japanese transliteration as "ru ri ra"
22:53:05 <oerjan> `run ord $(echo '20' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi64 "index.html?dl=1812")
22:53:06 <HackEgo> Malformed UTF-8 character (unexpected continuation byte 0x9d, with no preceding start byte) in ord at -e line 1, <> line 1. \ 0 52 54
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22:54:02 <Somelauw> okay, i found a way to make ord usable in my program, whenever you are at a point of printing, you need to start doing <<[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]< and then use a single loop of the ord program, because it destroys 2 inputs on the left and this compensates for that
22:54:51 <Somelauw> without the leading << actually
22:55:16 <Somelauw> it copies the value from x[n] to x[n+2]
22:55:34 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:04:54 <Somelauw> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
23:05:34 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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23:07:13 <Somelauw> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>],----------]>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>
23:08:08 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:08:49 <Somelauw> @bf 20+>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>
23:11:01 <Somelauw> @bf ++++++++++++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>
23:12:09 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:12:47 <Somelauw> that snippet produces 6765 when running it in my own interpreter
23:13:36 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
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23:15:04 <Somelauw> @bf ++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>
23:20:04 -!- tromp_ has joined.
23:22:14 <oerjan> `run ln -s interps/egobf/src/egobfi bin/bf
23:22:30 <oerjan> `bf <(++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>)
23:22:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf: not found
23:23:00 <Lymia> Sgeo, just be glad you haven't seen the abysmal translations yet
23:23:05 <Lymia> Trust me when I say you don't want to
23:23:31 <oerjan> `run ln -s ../interps/egobf/src/egobfi bin/bf
23:23:32 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `bin/bf': File exists
23:23:43 <oerjan> `run ln -s ../interps/egobf/src/egobfi bin/bf
23:23:49 <oerjan> `bf <(++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>)
23:23:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf: not found
23:24:53 <oerjan> `run ln -s ../interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 bin/bf
23:24:57 <oerjan> `bf <(++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>)
23:24:57 <HackEgo> <(++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>): No such file or directory
23:25:23 <oerjan> `bf <(echo '++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>')
23:25:24 <HackEgo> <(echo '++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>'): File name too long
23:25:32 <oerjan> `run bf <(echo '++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>')
23:25:55 <oerjan> Somelauw: i'm afraid HackEgo agrees with lambdabot
23:26:42 <oerjan> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi16 <(echo '++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>')
23:26:52 <oerjan> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi64 <(echo '++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>')
23:27:58 <oerjan> Somelauw: anyway why is the snippet ending with a useless [-]>>
23:28:15 <Somelauw> my own interpreter leaves the state in 55 (5, array('B', [0, 34, 55, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]))
23:30:23 <oerjan> Somelauw: what's your cell size
23:31:43 <oerjan> so egobfi8 should work, then
23:31:54 <oerjan> unless you mean 256 bits
23:32:12 <Somelauw> i tried 256 and infinite, but in both cases i got the same
23:32:51 <Somelauw> can any of them print the stack using #?
23:34:08 <oerjan> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 --help
23:34:08 <HackEgo> Use: egobfi{width} [options] [file] \ Options: \ -eof {0|-|n} \ set EOF mode: 0, -1 or no-change (respectively) \ [default: 0] \ -debug \ activate the # command [default off] \ -unicode {on|off} \ set unicode mode on or off [default off] \ -wrap {on|off} \ set wrappong on or off [default on]
23:34:48 <oerjan> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 -debug <(echo '++++++++++>+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>#')
23:34:48 <HackEgo> 1 0:10|1|0|0|*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:35:39 <fungot> >2,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>2,]
23:37:03 <Somelauw> @bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>
23:38:01 <oerjan> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 --help | tail
23:38:01 <HackEgo> Use: egobfi{width} [options] [file] \ Options: \ -eof {0|-|n} \ set EOF mode: 0, -1 or no-change (respectively) \ [default: 0] \ -debug \ activate the # command [default off] \ -unicode {on|off} \ set unicode mode on or off [default off] \ -wrap {on|off} \ set wrappong on or off [default on]
23:38:03 <Somelauw> ok, i'm completely confused now. 25 is what i get as well for that one
23:39:59 <oerjan> i suppose you should check if you've really running the same snippet both places
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23:42:53 <Somelauw> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 -debug <(echo ' ++++++++++ >+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>> # ')
23:42:54 <HackEgo> 0:10|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:44:41 <Somelauw> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 -debug <(echo ' +++++ >+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>> ')
23:44:48 <Somelauw> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 -debug <(echo ' +++++ >+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>># ')
23:44:49 <HackEgo> 0:5|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:47:14 <Somelauw> oh, i think i might see a problem
23:47:23 <Somelauw> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 -debug <(echo '>>>>>>>> +++++ >+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>># ')
23:47:23 <HackEgo> 0:0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|5|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:47:36 <fizzie> `run rm bin/bf; echo $'#! /bin/bash\n[[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; }\nci="$*"\necho -n "${ci#*!}" | echo /hackenv/interps/egobfi/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")' > bin/bf; chmod +x bin/bf
23:47:44 <HackEgo> /hackenv/interps/egobfi/src/egobfi8 /dev/fd/63
23:47:50 <fizzie> I forgot my debug echo.
23:48:00 <fizzie> `run rm bin/bf; echo $'#! /bin/bash\n[[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; }\nci="$*"\necho -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobfi/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")' > bin/bf; chmod +x bin/bf
23:48:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/bf: line 4: /hackenv/interps/egobfi/src/egobfi8: No such file or directory
23:48:15 <fizzie> And I keep typoing it "egobfi" instead of "egobf".
23:48:21 <fizzie> `run rm bin/bf; echo $'#! /bin/bash\n[[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; }\nci="$*"\necho -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")' > bin/bf; chmod +x bin/bf
23:48:25 <fizzie> (The directory, that is.)
23:48:50 <fizzie> `bf ,[.,]!testing!this!logic!too
23:48:57 <Somelauw> @bf >>>>>>>>>> +++++ >+<<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>> # [->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+> [-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>#
23:49:00 <fizzie> Got it the right way round, I think.
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23:49:42 <fizzie> (No facilities for passing extra arguments to egobfi in that script, though.)
23:51:29 <Somelauw> @bf >>>>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++ >+<[->[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>> # [->>>+>+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+> [-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>#
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23:58:48 <Somelauw> funny things where happening when having more << than >
00:00:14 <Somelauw> still i get 10946 on the one above
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00:07:18 <Sgeo> Lymia: I think I have. There's at least one claiming that Irregular is speaking to the chains that disappeared
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00:07:51 <Sgeo> Lymia: are you an Evillious Chronicles fan, or speaking about translations in general?
00:08:02 <Lymia> Translations in general
00:08:30 <Sgeo> It may also be possible that I don't know which trasnslation is more accurate at a given portion
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00:08:59 <boily> translations are evil, especially when coming from France.
00:09:14 <boily> (I'm looking at you, you fungotted coworker.)
00:09:14 <fungot> boily: that's just an infinite loop
00:09:27 <boily> fungot: an infinite loop of linguistic suffering.
00:09:27 <fungot> boily: how do you read .texi files? ( e.g. in ruby you can do certain things
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00:16:32 <oerjan> les translations sont maliceux, especialment quand ils viennent de France
00:17:56 <oerjan> i think i may have got some of the words right.
00:19:20 <boily> les traductions sont malicieuses, spécialement quand elles viennent de France.
00:20:49 <oerjan> how can french _not_ put an e in front of sp
00:21:26 <boily> because parce que.
00:21:29 <Somelauw> because spanish already does that
00:22:08 <oerjan> i suppose it should ideally be êpécialement
00:23:39 <boily> êpécialement :D I love it.
00:24:46 <oerjan> actually i was remembering école, but it _doesn't_ seem to use a circumflex. oh well.
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00:25:14 <boily> no, not in that case.
00:32:40 <Sgeo> Lymia: "Boy's crimes are getting old." "You're far from me forever." "It left from this room"
00:33:03 <Sgeo> That's from a translation that, other than that, seems to be much more focused on sounding good in English than anything resembling accuracy
00:33:49 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNWAIJk2pEE
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00:34:08 <Sgeo> Also, "lu li la/ru ri ra" into "lapis lazuli"
00:34:38 <Sgeo> (lu li la is a significant song throughout the serieses)
00:34:53 <Sgeo> Also, there has to be a better word than serieses. serii?
00:35:17 <oerjan> technically series _is_ the plural.
00:35:45 <Sgeo> There's one series in the series that all the songs have lu li la.
00:36:40 <Lymia> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3cZbQaqYN4
00:36:44 <Lymia> One of the worst translations I've seen
00:37:11 <Sgeo> "It's not that your sins aren't tolerated"... utter opposite of the other translation which I trust more
00:38:03 <Sgeo> Lymia: in terms of sounding like bad English or in terms of inaccuracy or both? The Evillious stuff seems to be one or the other
00:42:32 <Lymia> Like, not understanding 何度 at one point
00:42:55 <Sgeo> I don't understand that either. But I don't attempt to translate Japanese.
00:43:00 <Lymia> And translating something closer to "How many times will I choke myself in tears, holding your dead body at the world's end" into "At the world's end, who will hold your dead body? I choke myself in tears"
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00:44:49 <Lymia> Or the line "指し鍋られた手が" to "Our shining relationship in hand" (wat) when it's "Your outstretched hand..." (just the subject of a sentence
00:45:25 <Sgeo> I wish I knew how to tell good translations from bad
00:46:25 <Sgeo> For re_birthday I've been trusting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpl1uMEWM_g but is the word at 0:50 really Clockwork? Doesn't... quite make sense, except I guess it is part of Clockwork Lullaby series
00:46:31 <Lymia> My Japanese isn't all that good, but... I'm pretty sure a lot of people doing translations are even worse.
00:47:48 <Lymia> I don't think so? I hear "a big hole"
00:48:06 <Lymia> But there's vocabulary I can't understand off the top of my head in the next line, so.
00:48:18 <Sgeo> Translation says it's a few seconds before the Clockwork line
00:49:31 <Lymia> Apparently there's "ぜんまい", but my dictionary says it's "spring"
00:49:45 <Sgeo> Lymia: the translation I don't trust as much says 'spring'
00:50:12 <Sgeo> So... approximately 0 actually trustworthy translations?
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00:50:52 <Lymia> Responding to lifthrasiir
00:51:08 <lifthrasiir> yeah, I was wondering if there is some idiomatic use of that word unrelated to the food
00:51:34 <Lymia> I don't actually know that kanji. ^.^
00:51:40 <Lymia> My vocabulary's pretty spotty as far as everyday words go.
00:51:56 <Sgeo> Lymia: at 3:51 and beyond, are the chains talking to him, or is he talking to the chains?
00:52:11 <Sgeo> The latter makes no sense to me given the context
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00:53:42 <Sgeo> Ah, good. So both main translations I know of are wrong *sigh*
00:54:16 <Sgeo> In different ways
00:55:09 <Lymia> The vocaloid wiki has links to good translations
00:55:47 <boily> that mysterious kanji, isn't that of the hotpot kind?
00:55:48 <Lymia> To good translators
00:55:50 <Lymia> I remember a page like that
00:56:21 <Lymia> Maybe it'd be best to trust lifthrasiir better than me a little. Iunno. :P
00:56:39 <boily> I knew it. delicious kanji are easy to remember ^^
00:57:03 <boily> Lymia: afaik, lifthrasiir lives closer to kanjiform countries than you.
00:57:22 <lifthrasiir> my Japanese knowledge is limited to the intuitive understanding of words, idioms and syntaxes close to my native tongue and nothing else :p
00:58:06 <boily> who knows. some linguists are bold enough to suggest a koreano-japonic link between the two language families.
00:58:06 <lifthrasiir> so to say, at least I do know whether the machine translation "seems" correct or not
00:58:22 <Lymia> boily, my parents are both Chinese
00:58:27 <Lymia> And I can speak Chinese, but.
00:58:30 <Sgeo> Apparently Magic Mouse is able to right-click.
00:58:37 <Sgeo> I was not aware of that until recently
00:58:38 <Lymia> I can understand written Japanese better than written Chinese.
00:58:55 <Lymia> Which is to say, I can understand some written Japanese, and even the most basic written Chinese is beyond me.
01:01:00 <Lymia> boily, I thought the general "accepted" consensus was that it isn't too unlikely that Korean and Japanese are in the same family?
01:02:18 <Bike> what, in altaic?
01:02:40 <Lymia> More specific than Altaic.
01:03:44 <Sgeo> AFAIK the Mac version of Docking Station sucks :(
01:04:16 <boily> Lymia: «“"accepted"”».
01:04:32 <Lymia> Maybe I'm confused.
01:05:38 <boily> don't worry, confusion reigns supreme around these here parts too.
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02:17:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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03:07:24 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~a~:^)~a~:^
03:07:47 <Lymia> fizzie, I broke it. :D
03:08:18 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:08:51 <Lymia> ^ul (trololol)(~a:*~:^)~a:*~:^
03:09:00 <Lymia> ^ul (trololol)(~:*~:^)~:*~:^
03:09:14 <Lymia> ^ul (trololol)(~a~:^)~a~:^
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03:11:20 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~a:S~:^)~a:S~:^
03:11:21 <fungot> ()(())((()))(((())))((((()))))(((((())))))((((((()))))))(((((((())))))))((((((((()))))))))(((((((((())))))))))((((((((((()))))))))))(((((((((((())))))))))))((((((((((((()))))))))))))(((((((((((((())))))))))))))((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((((( ...too much output!
03:12:13 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~a:~:^)~a~:^
03:13:19 <Lymia> fungot breaker: ()(~a:~:^):^
03:13:19 <fungot> Lymia: and yes, i'm looking for
03:13:29 <Lymia> ^ul (You're not broken? D:)S
03:13:39 <Lymia> ^ul (You're not broken? D:)S
03:17:23 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~:^):^
03:19:52 <Lymia> Cursed bot refuses to die!
03:20:35 <elliott> I think it limits the only two variables you can control (size and time).
03:21:12 <Lymia> Two minute execution times is near death though
03:21:21 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~:^):^
03:22:49 <Bike> diggin the smilies
03:24:03 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaa~:^):^
03:26:29 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaaaa~:^):^
03:26:38 <Lymia> It's like constant optimizing BF Joust programs!
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03:54:41 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^~:^):^
03:57:08 <Lymia> ^ul (... did I fail?)S
03:57:37 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^~:^):^
04:01:16 <Lymia> ^ul (... did I fail?)S
04:01:40 <Lymia> Ping timeout is 5 minutes
04:01:56 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^~:^):^
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04:07:58 <elliott> I'm sure you'll get an award.
04:18:41 <Lymia> Bot killing is fun.
04:21:23 <lifthrasiir> I remember someone broke the Python sandbox in some bot (originally intended as a heavyweight calculator) by splicing function bytecodes
04:22:40 <Lymia> I think I did that in two seperate bots, both with basically the same approach
04:22:48 <Lymia> 0.__class__.__class__.mro()
04:22:54 <Lymia> Then going to town once I got that.
04:24:51 <Lymia> <Yuuna>!roll None.__class__.__mro__[-1].__subclasses__()[67]("test")()
04:24:51 <Lymia> *Marvin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
04:26:26 <lifthrasiir> http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/hftnp/ask_rpython_recovering_cleared_globals/
04:29:55 <elliott> trying to sandbox python just from inside python is kind of futile
04:30:30 <lifthrasiir> make a custom build of Python without file
04:30:45 <lifthrasiir> and sit back and watch standard libraries being broken
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05:25:27 <fizzie> (The ^ul DOS is a known issue.)
05:25:51 <Sgeo> "Realistically, anyone who is serious about PC gaming will be rebooting via Boot Camp, not trying to play in a virtualizer. But if you must play in your virtual OS, Parallels does a better job of it."
05:25:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, darn. I hate dual booting
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05:40:52 <fizzie> (The time limit is in terms of underload operations, and the stack limit is big enough for that to be an issue.)
05:42:39 <elliott> fizzie: you really need to run fungot in a loop. :p
05:42:39 <fungot> elliott: if i have sum an integer and a " return" that value. in fact, did.
05:43:34 <fizzie> Won't help until it learns how to autojoin channels, too.
05:50:44 <elliott> just set up a client script to tell it to join here every minute, clearly
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06:36:22 <fizzie> You stared it right off the channel.
06:40:56 <AndoDaan> These two categories: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits & http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turning_tarpits are about the same thing, right?
06:43:53 <AndoDaan> turning tarpits use wheel thingies?
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06:56:59 <AndoDaan> "This ancient comment happened due to confusing the term Turing tarpit and Turning tarpit, with the latter term originally created as a joke on a misspelling of the former. Both terms find use among esolang enthusiasts. --Ørjan (talk) 02:30, 27 June 2014 (UTC)"
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07:28:04 <mroman> unless there's some network issue :)
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07:28:45 <mroman> although it being written in Haskell it is probably vulnerable to the usual Haskell "Bugs"
07:29:54 <lambdabot> System.IO hGetLine :: Handle -> IO String
07:29:54 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hGetLine :: Handle -> IO String
07:29:54 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString hGetLine :: Handle -> IO ByteString
07:30:35 <mroman> hGetLine can probably die with "invalid byte sequence" I guess
07:31:03 <mroman> so if you manage to say something in this channel that will trigger an invalid byte squence due to the String de/encoding haskell does
07:31:06 <mroman> you might crash blsqbot
07:31:56 <AndoDaan> how do invalid byte sequences happen?
07:32:40 <mroman> AndoDaan: Haskell internally uses unicode for Strings
07:33:35 <mroman> which means that for example readFile "foo.txt" will decode foo.txt to the internal representation
07:34:15 <AndoDaan> and each unicode character(?) has to have a well defined length?
07:34:58 <mroman> I just know that if your system locale is for example isoxxx
07:35:10 <mroman> then haskell will decode the isoxxx to unicode
07:35:22 <mroman> and if you print something it will convert to isoxxx and then print
07:35:40 <mroman> but certain byte sequences are illegal in certain encodings
07:35:50 <mroman> in which case haskell errors out
07:37:02 <mroman> !blsq "hi "255L[.+wd)Q
07:39:15 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:39:17 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:39:38 <mroman> !blsq 255rz)rzL[rz)rzL[
07:39:47 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:40:37 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (cy) Invalid arguments!
07:40:44 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:40:57 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (cy) Invalid arguments!
07:41:10 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:41:25 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:41:36 <mroman> ah. "" is an empty list
07:41:39 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:41:53 <mroman> !blsq {1}cycycycycycycy1.+
07:42:39 <mroman> AndoDaan: Burlesque does some "type guessing" when it comes to blocks
07:43:02 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{<-}m[
07:43:11 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{<-9}m[
07:43:12 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
07:44:10 <mroman> technically if you map over a String
07:44:29 <mroman> Burlesque will try to guess whether you wan't a String as a result or a Block as a result
07:44:41 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{<-9}m[
07:44:41 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
07:44:44 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"XX{<-9}m[
07:44:44 <blsqbot> {9 'H 9 'I 9 ' 9 'T 9 'H 9 'E 9 'R 9 'E}
07:45:00 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{**}m[
07:45:00 <blsqbot> {104 105 32 116 104 101 114 101}
07:46:25 <mroman> -- Special case for empty block (BlsqBlock [] : xs) -> do putResult $ BlsqBlock [] : xs -- Special case for single char blocks (BlsqBlock [BlsqChar a] : xs) -> do putResult $ BlsqStr [a] : xs
07:46:47 <mroman> concat has some type hacking :)
07:47:15 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (l[)!
07:47:27 <mroman> !blsq {'a 'b 'c}{_+}r[
07:47:32 <Sgeo> Apparently middle-clicking on a Magic Mouse requires third-party software
07:49:02 <mroman> ^- that's the reason why \[ has that special treatment
07:49:34 <mroman> ^- back in the old days this would have resulted in 'a
07:49:42 <mroman> but with the hack in the new days it results in "a"
08:19:21 <mroman> http://codepad.org/S7AXoSSQ <- Am I the only one who hates this?
08:20:16 <Lymia> It's useful on an API boundery, where you need to do a lot of checks on a lot of functions
08:20:21 <Lymia> Like ensureListCapacity
08:23:36 <mroman> I kinda whish there was a System that would give you the Exceptions
08:23:41 <mroman> but also private boolean validate
08:24:03 <mroman> because if you need it boolean-ish
08:24:28 <mroman> you have to do some ugly stuff like boolean ok = false; try { validate(); ok = true; } catch{}
08:25:08 <mroman> however, boolean doesn't really say much about "what went wrong"
08:25:19 <mroman> whereas Exceptions can do that
08:26:37 <mroman> boolean valid = throws? validate();
08:26:56 <mroman> (throws? being some new keyword/operator)
08:28:37 <mroman> I guess I need more Java praticte
08:28:50 <mroman> I'm usually not a fan of using Exceptions for Control Flow
08:29:42 <mroman> mainly because you have to look at every function you call whether it throws an exception or not
08:29:52 <mroman> then you have to cross-reference that to the exceptions that are catched
08:30:19 <mroman> *every function the code calls
08:31:10 <mroman> some exceptions that are catched are actually never thrown
08:41:28 <b_jonas> mroman: well, I think c++14 and boost has some system functions with overloads that don't throw, but instead store the error in an output argument to give them
08:55:26 <mroman> (result, error) = validate();
08:55:47 <mroman> (which wouldn't throw the exception but store it in error)
08:55:59 <mroman> and result = validate(); would as usual throw the exception
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09:02:44 <mroman> How does Docker actually work?
09:02:56 <mroman> I don't think it's like a JVM/CLR?
09:07:47 <Deewiant> It used to be LXC by default, nowadays it's https://github.com/docker/libcontainer
09:09:56 <elliott> mroman: linux has support for separate namespaces for a variety of resources that together let you do containerisation of that sort
09:10:06 <elliott> it is not a good idea to rely on it for sandboxing or security.
09:11:08 <Deewiant> In short it's like chroot + stuff
09:19:57 <Sgeo> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Apple-new-imac-software-computer-design.jpg this still looks nothing like an iMac to me
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09:20:44 <Sgeo> It also looks like it's about to topple over
09:21:33 <mroman> It looks like it needs more anti-aliasing
09:22:15 <mroman> (the black lines are really edgy)
09:29:28 <fizzie> mroman: http://sprunge.us/egAT?java ...but probably don't actually to that.
09:30:37 <fizzie> The argument to resultize should probably be ExceptionHappy<? extends T> for more flexibility.
09:31:10 <fizzie> Tried also a fancier variant with the exception type as a type parameter, which almost worked, but you can't use a type parameter in a catch, understandably enough.
09:33:53 <fizzie> Would probably be doable and safe with a bit of reflection, because you can use a type parameter in a "throws" declaration, so it'd be statically type-checked to only throw (unchecked exceptions or) something matching X.
09:46:49 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/FJFP?java maybe? I won't guarantee the safety of it, and it's still probably not a good idea.
09:51:04 <mroman> too much fancy new Java-Features
09:53:34 <mroman> I guess you can check with isAssignableFrom stuff
09:55:52 <mroman> but that requires a dummy parameter to be passed
09:57:32 <mroman> Can you do runtime byte-code manipulation in Java?
09:57:56 <mroman> (on existing code. You can create new one obviously)
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10:14:32 <int-e> mroman: That seems unlikely; even the original JVM (before we had all those JIT compilers) had a static bytecode verifier which would have been broken by runtime byte-code manipulation; now with JITs, such a feature would become very expensive to support.
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11:18:35 <Taneb> I need to learn Scheme...
11:22:24 <fizzie> Start from the oft-quoted ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)).
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11:23:16 <fizzie> It's like the ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) except Schemier.
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11:27:25 <int-e> ... ``cc`cc -> ``c<`[]`cc>`cc -> `<`[]`cc><`[]`cc> -> `<`[]`cc>`cc -> ``cc`cc, where <...[]...> denotes a context with a hole at [].
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11:38:13 <Taneb> I also need to be less ill
11:39:15 <Taneb> Gone through two packets of tissues
11:39:37 <int-e> Try some proper food instead. *ducks*
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12:20:55 <oerjan> i see Lymia has been applying to become the first(?) human on fungot's ignore list
12:20:56 <fungot> oerjan: how am i supposed to fix the affected threads myself. i pity my cow-orkers tomorrow. like fnord activerecord, it would not be
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12:23:34 <fizzie> Though I have a two-strikes policy.
12:24:11 <fizzie> Mainly because I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't have done the same once.
12:24:23 <oerjan> i'll have to admit getting it to ping out like that was a little clever
12:25:17 <oerjan> i was already saying "give up already" in my mind when that happened
12:25:19 <fizzie> It's not entirely novel, but I didn't exactly advertise the feature on channel for obvious reasons.
12:42:48 <fizzie> "The loss of this information could critically compromise -- the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace."
12:42:51 <fizzie> I don't know why, but I have a hard time taking seriously statements that talk seriously about "cyberspace".
12:44:34 <b_jonas> Fungot, do you think the loss of that information could critically compromise the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace?
12:44:39 <oerjan> it's _so_ zeerust, no?
12:44:44 <b_jonas> fungot, do you think the loss of that information could critically compromise the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace?
12:44:44 <fungot> b_jonas: ls the list ( unquote 0) is evaluated.
12:45:01 <b_jonas> oh, so that's why it's an error.
12:46:41 <oerjan> fizzie: you're just not into the information superhighway
12:50:50 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:50:51 <fizzie> fungot: Please give a statement on how you are intending to organize the safeguarding of mission-critical core regions of the Finnish cyberspace landscape.
12:50:53 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the fight against fraud and counterfeiting. the commission also has to be borne in mind. they will pay through increases in tax and social security are largely decisive in the national endeavours, not least in the first instance, development priorities that have genuine measurable objectives and we should not be treated as such, the concern of the european union
12:51:19 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, I see, so we need to pay more taxes? Got it.
12:51:20 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, at the moment i am unable to set it up. thus this totally different text is, moreover, obtaining a very concise study on the situation of the family. again, as it is applied correctly. unbundled access to local loop is by its very definition, the problem is not that only 25% are inspected, but rather of fnord.
12:52:17 <oerjan> hm i understand we are killing bots here today?
12:54:22 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
12:55:10 <oerjan> ok it's not _quite_ that brittle.
12:58:25 <b_jonas> fungot, do you think the loss of that information could critically compromise the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace?
12:58:25 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i would like to point out to mr poettering. secondly, that we still can and should commit itself to carrying out justice in the end.
13:02:08 <fizzie> !blsq "ACTION filters CTCPs"1L[+]1L[[+sh
13:02:08 <blsqbot> <CTCP>ACTION filters CTCPs<CTCP>
13:03:56 <fizzie> At least there was an extra space at the front.
13:04:48 <int-e> > text "\1That helps.\1"
13:04:54 <fizzie> !blsq {"I filter newlines" "or just truncate at them" "or what"}uN
13:05:10 <int-e> > text "That\nhelps too."
13:05:11 <fizzie> Oh, right, there was the whole "only print the first line" thing anyway.
13:07:14 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
13:07:30 <fizzie> !blsq 13L[{"Presumably this applies" "QUIT :just kidding" "to carriage return too?"}[[\[sh
13:07:30 -!- blsqbot has quit (Quit: just kidding).
13:07:38 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:07:50 -!- j-bot has joined.
13:07:53 <fizzie> Well, oerjan did state it was national bot-killing day today.
13:07:53 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:06 <oerjan> fizzie: ok THAT was unexpected.
13:08:35 <b_jonas> (hmm, does that only in private message)
13:08:39 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: LF
13:08:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: | 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',( LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:48 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=:10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:48 <j-bot> b_jonas: I filter newlines
13:08:48 <j-bot> b_jonas: or just truncate at them
13:08:52 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map show [[m*n|n<-[1..10]]|m<-[1..10]]
13:09:15 <b_jonas> since when does lambdabot do that?
13:09:20 <mroman> fizzie: What did you do?
13:09:23 <b_jonas> or does it do so only on #esoteric?
13:09:35 <lambdabot> "|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n...
13:09:36 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(words.map show)[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Char’
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Expected type: GHC.Base.String -> GHC.Base.String
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Base.String -> [GHC.Base.String]Couldn't match type ‘[GHC...
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Expected type: a0 -> GHC.Types.Char
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Actual type: a0 -> GHC.Base.String
13:09:45 <fizzie> mroman: Asked it to output "Presumably this applies\rQUIT :just kidding\rto carriage return too?"
13:09:54 <fizzie> mroman: IRC accepts \r, \n or any combination of them as newline.
13:10:02 <int-e> b_jonas: I changed it from 1 line to up to 5 lines a while ago because > never produced any useful error messages otherwise.
13:10:16 <int-e> it does know how to count lines though :P
13:10:58 <int-e> b_jonas: you saw the :QUIT :P
13:10:59 <b_jonas> or try confusing it with NUL characters
13:11:10 <int-e> but yes, that is embarassing.
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13:12:53 <mroman> fizzie: It uses head (lines output)
13:14:11 <fizzie> \0 is technically also illegal to include in an IRC message; I don't know if servers use that as a message separator or do "end message but discard until newline" or "discard entire message" if you do it.
13:14:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't they just, like, quit you, just like when you send a too long line or too much text without waiting?
13:15:39 <fizzie> I guess that's an alternative too.
13:16:17 <fizzie> fungot uses a 0 internally as the message terminator (I believe), so I can't convince it to send one.
13:16:18 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, our committee of inquiry from 1984 to 1989. she really is most persistent, because we already know, that top-down authoritarian integration and fnord regulations are to be able to come to an end and that this has on employees, such as fishermen, particularly at a time when the eu is taking action against ireland for failure to respect human rights, mr president, i apologize to the commissioner for his repl
13:16:46 <HackEgo> 163) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P \ 178) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly. \ 410) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: i
13:18:06 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(unwords.map show)[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:18:43 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(unwords.map(printf("%3d"))[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:18:44 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
13:18:57 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(unwords.map(printf("%3d")))[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:19:11 <int-e> > text$['a'..]>>=(:"123456789")
13:19:26 <int-e> > text$['a'..'z']>>=(:"123456789")
13:19:27 <lambdabot> a123456789b123456789c123456789d123456789e123456789f123456789g123456789h12345...
13:19:43 <oerjan> int-e: i believe text is strict, unlike var
13:19:47 <int-e> 79. good, that's what I thought.
13:20:25 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 2 3 4 5
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 4 6 8 10
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 6 9 12 15
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4 8 12 16 20
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 5 10 15 20 25
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 2 3 4 5
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 4 6 8 10
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 6 9 12 15
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4 8 12 16 20
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 5 10 15 20 25
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13:21:01 <fizzie> !blsq 13L[{"Presumably this applies" "QUIT :just kidding" "to carriage return too?"}[[\[sh
13:21:01 -!- blsqbot has quit (Client Quit).
13:21:57 <b_jonas> [ 'Presumably this applies',(13{a.),'QUIT :just kidding'
13:21:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: Presumably this applies
13:21:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: QUIT :just kidding
13:22:20 <b_jonas> mind you, you can make j-bot die if I want, just not this way
13:22:20 <mroman> why didn't it say just kidding :)
13:22:59 <oerjan> mroman: freenode censors quit messages the first minutes after you log on, to prevent their use for spamming several channels simultaneously
13:23:17 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't know it was an intentional feature.
13:23:26 <oerjan> well i assume that's the reason
13:25:34 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.>,]>++++++++++.<<[<]>[.>]>+++.<<[.<].>[.>]!test
13:25:38 <fizzie> Well, that's as expected.
13:25:56 <fizzie> \n and \r translated to '.', and 0 just truncates.
13:27:27 <b_jonas> [ 'I think J-bot strips all low control chars: ', 128{.a.
13:27:27 <j-bot> b_jonas: I think J-bot strips all low control chars:
13:27:28 <j-bot> b_jonas: ┌┬┐├┼┤└┴┘│─ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
13:27:40 -!- blsqbot has joined.
13:27:58 <b_jonas> oh, it probably does, only J translates some of them on writing or something
13:28:11 <mroman> !blsq !blsq 13L[{"Presumably this applies" "QUIT :just kidding" "to carriage return too?"}[[\[sh
13:28:11 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:28:24 <fizzie> !blsq 13L[{"How about" "QUIT :x" "now?"}[[\[sh
13:28:39 <fizzie> !blsq 0L[{"How about" "QUIT :x" "them null bytes?"}[[\[sh
13:28:39 <blsqbot> How aboutQUIT :xthem null bytes?
13:28:45 <fizzie> Well, that seems fine.
13:29:40 <fizzie> !blsq {"newlines still" "separate lines" "right?"}uN
13:30:16 <b_jonas> !blsq {"newlines still" "separate lines" "PRIVMSG #esoteric :right?"}uN
13:30:31 <mroman> It does head (lines output)
13:30:41 <mroman> it's just that lines in haskell doesn't take "\r" as a line
13:30:50 <mroman> which is why that \r thing worked
13:31:57 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
13:32:41 <blsqbot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SYN\ET
13:32:43 <oerjan> mroman: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base-4.7.0.1/System-IO.html#g:25
13:33:47 <oerjan> although i suppose that doesn't help with lines on things constructed internally
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13:35:56 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
13:36:04 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
13:36:08 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:36:35 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
13:36:46 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
13:36:53 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:37:58 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:38:01 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:38:15 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
13:43:18 <mroman> let me just create a challenge for that :D
13:46:04 <fizzie> Why can't the POCKET challenge just go ahead and close now when I'm still winning (a bit).
13:47:14 <mroman> how much time is left?
13:48:09 <b_jonas> I'm winning too, I have the shortest C++ entry for POCKET
13:49:25 <oerjan> <fizzie> It's like the ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) except Schemier. <-- i convinced myself the other day that in unlambda `d`cc and ``sii are exactly equivalent. although you need the d.
13:49:57 <oerjan> (i'm vaguely pondering a bit whether unlambda could be TC without s and k)
13:50:10 <oerjan> (or without just s, if that doesn't work.)
13:50:15 <int-e> fizzie: have a look at http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?join+lines/mskzzzz_1175444795&scm
13:51:23 <int-e> (But I don't know whether you'd have to repeat the :delete)
13:51:47 <fizzie> It'd probably still be shorter than my no-imports solution.
13:53:16 <int-e> OUCH. http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?123
13:53:56 <fizzie> Heh, 34. I don't know the Gauche libraries at all.
13:54:18 <oerjan> <int-e> ... ``cc`cc -> ``c<`[]`cc>`cc -> `<`[]`cc><`[]`cc> -> `<`[]`cc>`cc -> ``cc`cc, where <...[]...> denotes a context with a hole at []. <-- hey the standard notation it (`*`cc) (i know because i made it.)
13:54:49 <oerjan> (disclaimer: there might exist an older standard which i don't know about.)
13:55:08 <fizzie> I've seen (... [] ...) used in some Scheme-related material.
13:55:16 <oerjan> also, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough
13:56:20 <oerjan> int-e: i think i shall refuse your attempts to drag us into old golf problems tdnh
13:56:44 <oerjan> (also i have no idea how to do that primes thing with just 3 extra chars.)
13:56:46 <int-e> oerjan: that was not my intention.
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13:57:11 <fizzie> I noticed the 1 2 3 thing when looking at old problems before. At least the expected number of attempts isn't *too* bad.
13:57:35 <int-e> oerjan: If it was, I'd point you at http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Text+Compression which may be interesting even though it's a post mortem ;)
13:57:40 <oerjan> i mean, i can just add ,n/=341 which is 7, and that's the best i have so far.
13:58:14 <oerjan> and you said you had 1 char shorter than that?
13:58:39 <int-e> oerjan: I'm using \square for holes in contexts, and [] is my usual ASCII approximation of that.
14:00:08 <int-e> but the * may actually appear in some unlambda resources that I've read years ago :)
14:00:21 <fizzie> int-e: Is there some convention if you see someone's solution in post-mortem and see an obvious improvement?
14:00:26 <fizzie> Like yourname(theirname) or something.
14:01:04 <int-e> fizzie: I don't know.
14:01:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: probably that, yes
14:01:23 <oerjan> well as i found out, you can have the thing in parentheses pretty long
14:02:00 <b_jonas> there should be a public comment field, not only a name fiedl
14:03:59 <int-e> fizzie: tbh I was just looking for general ideas of what golfed scheme programs look like; I didn't expect to find a template for the POCKET thing.
14:04:05 <fizzie> int-e: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?join+lines/fizzie%28mskzzzz%29_1413468198&scm -- the :delete key is just a boolean flag, any true value does.
14:04:48 <int-e> oh, of course, a keyword argument.
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14:07:20 <fizzie> I'm more content with the Befunge and Z80 pockets anyway, though still afraid of being one-upped. Not that it should matter.
14:07:25 <fizzie> Time to go home, I think. ->
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15:15:05 <mroman> JS-Engine Developers are working hard to deal as good as possible with JS's lack of static typing :)
15:20:41 <fizzie> I wrote a real quick Burlesque mail merge before remembering it'll just "main_golf: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence)" out, of course.
15:20:49 <fizzie> (Oh well, it wasn't very good either.)
15:21:43 <b_jonas> maybe make mroman fix that in the implementation?
15:22:21 <mroman> I don't know what shinh uses as a locale?
15:22:45 <fizzie> It works fine locally, under an UTF-8 locale.
15:22:47 <mroman> I could use hSetEncoding UTF8 ore something
15:22:57 <lambdabot> System.IO hSetEncoding :: Handle -> TextEncoding -> IO ()
15:22:57 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hSetEncoding :: Handle -> TextEncoding -> IO ()
15:23:11 <b_jonas> mroman: what? no, set iso-8859-1 encoding instead
15:23:15 <b_jonas> so it can read any binary data
15:23:32 <b_jonas> and maybe add a setlocale builtin :-)
15:23:56 <mroman> for that I would have to first switch to an IO Monad ;)
15:24:17 <mroman> although changing to StateT IO ... shouldn't be too hard
15:24:26 <b_jonas> make it just work with byte strings instead of character strings
15:24:46 <fizzie> Anything that coincides with ASCII would presumably be reasonable in the sense that it wouldn't affect any existing program.
15:25:54 <mroman> -- | An encoding in which Unicode code points are translated to bytes
15:25:54 <mroman> -- by taking the code point modulo 256. When decoding, bytes are
15:25:55 <mroman> -- translated directly into the equivalent code point.
15:28:01 <mroman> my locale is en_US.utf8
15:30:32 <mroman> maybe socket uses char8 or something
15:31:17 <oerjan> mroman: that would explain why it _doesn't_ crash when we send it non-utf8
15:31:38 <oerjan> which is, presumably, a good thing.
15:33:59 <mroman> enc <- if binary then return Nothing else fmap Just getLocaleEncoding
15:34:48 <mroman> h <- fdToHandle' (fromIntegral fd) (Just GHC.IO.Device.Stream) True (show s) mode True{-bin-}
15:34:59 <mroman> socketToHandle passes binary=True
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15:37:14 <mroman> oerjan: I had a discussion about that some months ago with somebody in #haskell
15:37:40 <mroman> There's Network.ByteString though
15:38:19 <blsqbot> {230 151 165 230 156 172 232 170 158}
15:38:26 <blsqbot> {"e6" "97" "a5" "e6" "9c" "ac" "e8" "aa" "9e"}
15:39:42 <oerjan> presumably binary is equivalent to char8 + no eol conversion
15:40:39 <oerjan> yep, "This has the same effect as calling hSetEncoding with char8, together with hSetNewlineMode with noNewlineTranslation."
15:49:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnecessary]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40620&oldid=36295 * InputUsername * (+126) Added a link to a Ruby interpreter
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17:23:36 <int-e> ho [I will later pretend this was a typo]
17:24:57 <TieSoul> I seem to be afflicted by some kind of curse where I write a Funge-98 interpreter for every programming language I like.
17:37:45 <tromp> how do you like the language BLC ?
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17:42:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40621&oldid=40464 * InputUsername * (+329) Linked to some language implementations
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17:47:05 <TieSoul> Hey, I know InputUsername IRL.
17:47:15 <TieSoul> funny to see him here of all places.
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18:18:23 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname mroman(use query)
18:19:40 <Melvar> @ask int-e < int-e> oerjan: I'm using \square for holes in contexts, and [] is my usual ASCII approximation of that. – Why ascii and not □ ?
18:30:28 <Sgeo> What does (use query) mean? That someone should message em?
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18:38:51 <mroman> fuck javas scope rules in cases
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18:57:00 <mroman> coppro: cases share the same scope
18:57:23 <coppro> mroman: use a compound statement
18:57:31 <coppro> case foo: { int a; } case bar: { int a; }
18:57:56 <mroman> on the other hand C# has some fucked up scoping rules as well
18:58:14 <mroman> out of C,C#,Java C has the most intuitive scoping rules
18:59:52 <mroman> Are there editors for 2D languages
19:00:14 <mroman> I don't like that chars are higher than wider
19:01:19 <elliott> oh, that wasn't a general statement
19:01:43 <mroman> also I'm tired of having to type 10 spaces
19:01:52 <mroman> I'd be cooler if I had some editor with a grid
19:02:23 <mroman> No, I might enjoy a 2D programming language editor :)
19:02:24 <b_jonas> mroman: find a crossword editor. that has both grid and square cells.
19:02:48 <elliott> oh, wow, crossword esolang
19:03:52 <mroman> ideally you can type in directions
19:04:02 <mroman> which means the editor will recognize that you typed a v
19:04:13 <mroman> and will switch to "insert downards vertically"
19:06:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40622&oldid=40578 * 70.114.225.120 * (+11) /* J */
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19:34:23 <elliott> mroman: emacs artist-mode may do some things you want
19:36:06 <mroman> maybe I'll write my own editor :)
19:36:45 <mroman> I guess since it can do socket you can draw stuff with X11?
19:37:28 <myname> we tried building an editor for rail on a university software project
19:38:36 <myname> https://github.com/SWP-Ubau-SoSe2014-Haskell/SWPSoSe14
19:40:04 <fizzie> I believe there are some Befunge IDEs.
19:40:21 <fizzie> I used to write Befunge-93 with ZBefunge.
19:40:38 <fizzie> http://flourish.org/zbefunge/
19:41:55 <fizzie> Not sure if there's that much things for 2D languages in general, though some Emacs tricks indeed.
19:42:41 <fizzie> There's at least one thing that does the natural cardinal-direction movement, so that when you type it keeps continuing to the direction of your last cursor-movement command.
19:45:02 <fizzie> Possibly not with ><^v recognition, though.
19:53:22 <Melvar> Is there a befunge variant that uses ←↑↓→ ?
19:54:13 <^v> hard because its unicode
19:54:20 <^v> would be easier just to gsub
19:54:42 <Melvar> Not to solve the current problem, just generally curious.
19:56:32 <fizzie> All I can think of offhand are ASCII, but you could sample http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Two-dimensional_languages
19:58:40 <fizzie> Of course "truu ASCII" has ↑ in place of ^.
19:58:53 <fizzie> ^ is just some sort of modern nonsense.
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20:00:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, true ascii has a left arrow at _ and a broken bar at | and a yen sign at `
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20:01:23 <b_jonas> or wait, is the yen sign at \
20:03:07 <MDude> But it's right here ?
20:03:38 <b_jonas> and true ascii has É no either [ or # depending on who you ask :-)
20:04:02 <^v> :o my uptime is 10 days
20:08:18 <MDude> It's not true ascii if it wasn't used by old timey railroad operators.
20:08:57 <MDude> Or telegraph guys.
20:09:27 <b_jonas> MDude: no way. those use a 5-bit character set with shifts between two states,
20:09:46 <b_jonas> and a keyboard that physically doesn't allow pressing keys that would not make sense in the current shift state
20:09:55 <mroman> I've read about byte = 5bit computers
20:10:03 <b_jonas> so that you don't forget to press the shift keys
20:10:12 <b_jonas> that's got nothing to do with ascii
20:10:27 <MDude> Then what's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ASCII_Code_Chart-Quick_ref_card.png
20:10:37 <b_jonas> and of course as it can encode only very few characters, it has lots of variant character sets
20:11:53 <mroman> Nixdorf had 12bit bytes
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20:31:12 <fizzie> This discussion is taking place on a network where [\] are uppercase {|}, thanks to 7-bit ISO/IEC 646 national variants.
20:32:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: yep, with nickserv and chanserv accounts migrated from back then they weren't considered case variants, and I have no idea how they could resolve the conflicts
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20:33:45 <fizzie> The same Finnish encoding that gifted us those also had ¤ in place of $. Otherwise I think it matched ASCII.
20:34:13 <b_jonas> it's one of the iso-646 encodings. those were big back in ye olden days.
20:36:37 <fizzie> In BBS systems you also quite often got ö -> v, ä -> d (hence all the jokes about "ddkkvset") because that's what you get when you strip the high bit out of Latin-1.
20:37:20 <fizzie> "Onneksi ddkkvset eivdt endd ole ongelma."
20:38:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I still see some errors in mails where characters are somehow taken modulo 256, so you get Q instead of ő.
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20:42:14 <b_jonas> that of course results in mostly readable mails. there are also mails where every non-ascii character is badly mangled.
20:42:29 <b_jonas> sometimes even irrecoverably, like when every non-ascii character is replaced by a question mark or something.
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21:47:01 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:47:53 <Taneb> Figured it's been a while since that's been used
21:48:25 <Bike> `run cat $(which slist)
21:50:40 <elliott> Sgeo: looks like apple are trying to tempt you with price cuts
21:51:03 <elliott> oh, not a price cut, just a worse model.
21:51:23 <Taneb> elliott, looks like Hussie is trying to tempt you with Homestuck updates that don't advance the plot in any meaningful way
21:52:45 <Bike> do you see elliott on the slist? i don't. therefore, not a reader.
21:53:55 <shachaf> Bike: i don't see anybody on the slist hth
21:54:07 <Bike> did you see etc
21:54:12 <Bike> TENSE MOTHERFUCKER
21:54:35 <shachaf> Bike: did you read that long thread from 200x with john baez about pseudoforms
21:57:51 <Sgeo> Taneb: because the site is down?
21:58:01 <Sgeo> Is there known to have been an update? oh, there is, woah
21:58:09 <Taneb> Sgeo, mirror http://i.imgur.com/UoNYckC.gif
21:58:23 <Bike> truly incredible
21:59:22 <Sgeo> elliott: well, for just toying around with OSX, a 'worse' model would be fine
22:00:50 <elliott> Sgeo: well, double the storage, memory and a much better processor and GPU is unquestionably worth $200
22:00:55 <Sgeo> Now, if only everything wasn't so expensive in terms of space
22:01:01 <elliott> I don't get the economics behind them adding a much-shittier $200 cheaper iMac a while ago either.
22:02:02 <Sgeo> elliott: which thing are you referrig to precisely/
22:02:28 <elliott> (even worse for the iMac: they expect you to believe that 1.4ghz dual-core i5 -> 2.7ghz quad core i7, double the storage, and intel hd graphics -> iris pro + geforce 750M isn't worth $200 on a purchase that is >$1k regardless)
22:04:06 <Sgeo> elliott: what's the new thing that's $200 cheaper for a lot less value?
22:04:20 <elliott> they released a $499 mac mini.
22:04:38 <Sgeo> If I only had room for a monitor+keyboard+mouse
22:05:36 <Sgeo> If I could somehow use my current laptop for that, that would be fun
22:06:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jasp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40623&oldid=40618 * Oerjan * (-92) formatting
22:08:41 <Sgeo> Is my understanding of Apple's iOS app policies correct, that if the web were brand new today, they would not allow web browsers in the App store?
22:09:10 <elliott> what size is your apartment in m^2 exactly
22:10:25 <Sgeo> Not really sure offhand
22:10:49 <Bike> negative three
22:11:02 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
22:11:35 <shachaf> Bike: should've used a pseudoform
22:11:52 <Bike> http://lamington.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/div-grad-curl-and-all-this maybe this will make more sense to you than to me
22:12:08 <oerjan> elliott: it's Em^2 c hth
22:12:35 <shachaf> Bike: did you see http://mathoverflow.net/a/10586
22:12:57 <Bike> i get the div grad curl is 3d though
22:13:12 <Bike> that is, in fact, how i got sucked into this, wanting to know how magnetism (curl) would work in higher d's :(
22:13:59 <Bike> oh god damn it Gravitation again too
22:14:10 <Bike> have you seen that book it is ridiculous
22:14:32 <shachaf> imo physicists are ridiculous??
22:14:44 <Bike> well they are yeah
22:14:50 <Bike> it makes elementary entomology errors. smh.
22:15:20 <Bike> seriously though it's just a big featureless brick of physics http://40.media.tumblr.com/4aecd2760c12bcca6fe8e888bcd707e1/tumblr_nblz4unjOj1r7tprao1_1280.jpg
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22:15:51 <shachaf> oh you meant seen in a literal sense
22:16:18 <Slereah_> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/MATH.jpg
22:16:23 <Bike> the content is also ridiculous, just to be clear
22:16:39 <Bike> it reads kind of like they were stoned
22:16:45 <Slereah_> It is just not really well organized
22:16:49 <Bike> what if, like, apples... were straight lines
22:16:57 <Bike> i mean, good book, i'm never going to understand it is all
22:17:13 <Bike> also it uses einstein summation notation. imo why.
22:17:46 <Slereah_> It has Einstein right in the name!
22:18:12 <Bike> mainly i just don't get the emphasis on tensors being blocks of numbers
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22:18:36 <Bike> like they write out efe as http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/f/5/3f50fd206f2fe543a6a8a3e687cf74c3.png
22:18:49 <Bike> what is the point of the indices? can't they just be multilinear operators in peace
22:19:02 <Slereah_> Well yeah but in that case, you have to write like
22:19:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OBJEKTER]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40624 * InputUsername * (+365) Created a stub page for OBJEKTER. Will be updated tomorrow, when I have more time.
22:19:59 <Slereah_> Also most GR is done in a coordinate system
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22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:18:58] <Slereah_> Well yeah but in that case, you have to write like
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:19:17] <Slereah_> R in T*M (x) T*M
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:19:55] <Slereah_> Also most GR is done in a coordinate system
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:20:10] <Slereah_> It is useful for observables
22:20:42 <Bike> i dunno, i ain't a physicist, but when the first part of gravitation is like "so, the point of this is that coordinate systems are just choices we make, they're not really inherent... anyway, here's stress-energy in coordinates" ok bye oh hello
22:21:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OBJEKTER]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40625&oldid=40624 * InputUsername * (+14) Fixed link.
22:21:26 <Slereah_> Well it is still useful because you can do any coordinate transform easily
22:21:46 <Bike> oh, gravitation does the milk crates too, huh. burke does that and i don't really get it at all
22:22:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OBJEKTER]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40626&oldid=40625 * InputUsername * (-18) Removed link. Sorry for this.
22:22:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40627&oldid=40621 * InputUsername * (+110) Added OBJEKTER.
22:22:59 <Slereah_> if you complain about the Einstein equation written as tensor components
22:23:21 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newman%E2%80%93Penrose_formalism
22:23:43 <Bike> shachaf: a kind of picture they use to illustrate, uh... i think 2-forms.
22:24:10 <Slereah_> Einstein equation doesn't look so bad now does it
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22:24:30 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newman%E2%80%93Penrose_formalism#NP_field_equations
22:24:32 <Bike> "In NP formalism, instead of using index notations as in orthogonal tetrads, each Ricci rotation coefficient \gamma_{ijk} in the null tetrad is assigned a lower-case Greek letter, which constitute the 12 complex spin coefficients" so glad i'm not in physics. so glad
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22:25:11 <Slereah_> Although EFE in tetrad notation is quite nice and compact, actually
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22:27:00 <Slereah_> The action is just S = 1/4 integral tr[F* ^ F]
22:27:42 <Bike> blargh i don't even know what gauge theories are
22:27:49 <Bike> i should stick to easy things like dissecting small animals
22:28:29 <shachaf> can you do it using just a compass and a straightedge
22:28:41 <Slereah_> A compass does have a pretty sharp point
22:28:46 <Bike> if the straightedge is sharp enough yeah
22:28:53 <Bike> can i use pins to mark points? if so that's pretty much what you use
22:29:59 <Bike> oh, so flatworms, huh. kind of wriggly
22:30:41 <Bike> biology has some pretty weird manifolds http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41F10pcXYEL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
22:31:04 <Bike> that image is kind of shitty but i dno't see any high res ones and if i wanted to take my own photo i'd have to, like, get out of my seat.
22:31:17 <shachaf> what's with the obsession everyone seems to have with real numbers anyway
22:31:54 <shachaf> if i don't like the reals why would i like manifolds
22:32:23 <Slereah_> Not all manifolds are real number based
22:32:30 <Slereah_> Because the empty set is a manifold.
22:32:42 <Slereah_> Because it's a manifold for every dimension
22:33:06 <Bike> i don't believe in manifolds i can't punch
22:33:06 <shachaf> the implications are manifold
22:33:36 <Slereah_> Bike : Beware, some are dangerous
22:33:51 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ness_monster_surface
22:33:58 <shachaf> all i want is to understand derivatives
22:34:02 <shachaf> why do real numbers have to get involved
22:34:17 <Slereah_> Natural numbers have no derivatives
22:35:10 <Bike> you could use the arithmetic derivative :emoticon:
22:35:40 <Slereah_> There's also a boolean derivative
22:35:46 <Bike> or i guess like... difference equations. bleh.
22:35:54 <shachaf> or species or whatever you want
22:35:57 <Bike> i suppose that is subtraction
22:36:30 <shachaf> discrete derivatives are p. nifty imo
22:37:30 <Bike> wikipedia's example of a type derivative is nitfy
22:38:08 <Bike> i should probably figure out why this looks exactly like analytic combinatorics but i'm too busy castrating squirrels
22:38:47 <Bike> "the type T of binary trees containing values of type A can be represented as the algebra generated by the transformation 1+A×T²→T[..] In the tree example, the derivative is a type that describes the information needed, given a particular subtree, to construct its parent tree[..] This type can be represented as 2×A×T"
22:39:33 <Taneb> I've gained reputation at uni as "the Haskell guy" in my year and now the pure CS course uses Haskell for the compilers module people keep asking me for help
22:39:37 <Taneb> I don't even do that module
22:40:03 <shachaf> everything makes all sorts of intuitive sense
22:41:02 <Bike> it also says something about zippers
22:41:15 <Bike> with binary trees again. everybody loves x²+1.
22:41:52 <oerjan> Taneb: just write a supercompilation lens hth
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22:42:32 <Taneb> Someone had a weird syntax error that I couldn't spot...
22:43:12 <oerjan> and you saw the error message?
22:43:34 <Taneb> Syntax error at = on line 8 column 30 or something
22:43:38 <oerjan> did they mix spaces and tabs that's always fun on stackoverflow
22:43:47 <Taneb> Yes, but I think we got rid of them
22:43:57 <oerjan> (because stackoverflow uses 4 spaces to display tabs)
22:45:29 * oerjan seems to have slipped off stackoverflow (although i still have the tab open) with all the golfing and stuff
22:46:45 <oerjan> so theoretically you can get people who have their editor set to tabstop=4 and no one can see anything wrong with their code.
22:47:04 <oerjan> or some code is actually correct despite looking broken. and all combinations.
22:48:09 <oerjan> syntax error at =, hm well that can mean a lot of things, but probably something that wasn't closed properly.
22:48:44 <oerjan> assuming there should really be a = at all.
22:49:26 <oerjan> > let f (Just test = 5 in f (Just "hi")
22:49:27 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: parse error on input ‘=’
22:50:09 <oerjan> hm Syntax error? where they using Hugs or something? although it's supposed to have easier error messages.
22:50:26 <Taneb> I can't remember the exact message
22:52:07 <Bike> it may be too late to debug this............................
22:52:21 <oerjan> HOW CAN YOU SAY SUCH A THING
22:53:41 <oerjan> hm good error messages should be able to tell if you are missing closing brackets and stuff
22:54:11 <Sgeo> Is the OS X store as curated as the iOS store? I guess it doesn't matter so much, since Apple doesn't try to block installs from elsewhere
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23:17:06 <elliott> the mac app store is kind of bad.
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00:29:05 <elliott> Sgeo: no such thing as an upgrade discount (upgrades are always free, so people just make new full-price apps to get paid for upgrades instead), not-too-great sandboxing means reduced functionality of many apps and many others simply unavailable, just generally has decreasing traction amongst developers, plus general app store problems
00:29:10 <elliott> weird stuff like in-app payments :p
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00:36:45 <Sgeo> I guess most Linuxy app stores don't have payments anyway, making the upgrade thing moot
00:37:20 <Sgeo> I assume those are just wrappers around the whole distro thing anyway
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00:40:31 <Somelauw> except for ubuntu, which has become a commercial distro
00:44:24 <Sgeo> Now I'm looking at Ubuntu
00:44:28 <elliott> the mac has a far greater history/culture of for-pay software than even windows
00:46:22 <Sgeo> Ubuntu uses Qt these days?
00:46:28 <Sgeo> I though GNOME was all GTK+
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01:06:20 <Somelauw> ubuntu uses a pimped version of gnome, called unity
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01:15:28 <MDude> So wait, the app store for I'm presuming iPhone allows in-app payments, but not paying for upgrades?
01:15:56 <Sgeo> So why do I see the Ubuntu page talking about QML and Qt?
01:15:58 <MDude> Yet people don't just construe new features as in-app purchases?
01:16:22 <Sgeo> MDude: Mac app store is distinct from iOS app store. Don't know what those policies are
01:16:33 <MDude> I mean iOs store, then?
01:17:20 <MDude> The in-app purshases but no payment for upgrades thing seems even weirder for desktop programs.
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01:38:50 <elliott> Sgeo: because unity is qt.
01:39:46 <elliott> MDude: and yes, people do contrive things as in-app purchases
01:40:07 <elliott> like a free app that effectively makes "do useful things" an in-app purchase, because the mac app store doesn't support trial or demo versions
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03:38:28 <AndoDaan> remind me not to attempt a semi-lengthy page edit again without frequently saving an off-line draft.
03:47:58 <elliott> hm, can't you just go back in your history to recover the form contents?
03:48:07 <elliott> iirc IE or something used to not support that, but surely it does now...
03:50:07 <AndoDaan> checked, not this time. I tried to move to the preview page without realizizng my connection was out.
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03:53:38 <elliott> AndoDaan_: maybe you'll find https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/ / https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lazarus-form-recovery/loljledaigphbcpfhfmgopdkppkifgno?hl=en useful
03:54:02 <elliott> maybe it is not quite actively developed any more going by that release date.
03:54:18 <elliott> probably still works though.
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03:56:15 <AndoDaan_> i will(unless it slows my browser down past what's bearable), thanks for showing me!
03:58:45 <elliott> heh, well, I can't imagine it's among the heavier extensions you can ruin firefox and chrome with
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04:02:56 <Sgeo> As much as iPhone policies make me nervous, it would be nice not to have a back button or for apps to expect use of the menu button
04:03:24 <Sgeo> Although some of Android's ickiness with multitasking UI isn't actually back button, I guess
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04:19:51 <Sgeo> Wow I am bad at connecting dots. It took until the appearance of a prior character to realize Daughter of White's connection to everything else in Story of Evil
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04:21:22 <Sgeo> She's friends with a ... I want to say murder victim but ... I guess genocide victim although targetted at her is more accurate
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04:27:54 <AndoDaan> It's great when tv can still surprise us. Other than the intrigue, good show?
04:29:18 <Sgeo> Unless you're talking about something else
04:30:24 <Sgeo> I'm enjoying it, but I might not have good taste.
04:30:30 <AndoDaan> I don't watch tv anymore, but I thin maybe I thought you were talking about Person of Interest.
04:31:13 <Sgeo> Ok, things just got weirder.
04:32:17 <Sgeo> Spoilers for Wooden Girl: Gheaf bhg gung ivpgvz jnf n gerr ghearq uhzna.
04:41:06 <Sgeo> I still don't understand Handbeat Clocktower. I was hoping I would understand it.
04:49:04 <Sgeo> Oh look, it's the garbage translation of re_birthday :(
05:01:28 <Sgeo> A 'fan-song' which is just different Japanese lyrics in the video with the original song, and an unreadable Englush translation
05:02:39 <Sgeo> Oh, maybe they did change the lyrics in the song itself too
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05:07:12 <Sgeo> Well, this next fan song is sad, but gets canon wrong severely, in a way critical to its sadness
05:09:36 <Sgeo> Not sure. Doubt it's correct though
05:11:29 <AndoDaan> Strong sense of Deja Vu with this.
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05:40:14 <lambdabot> EFHK 170520Z 02006KT 9999 FEW034 M03/M04 Q1016 NOSIG
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07:40:53 <Sgeo> Is there a scripting language for Automator that is not AppleScript
07:44:32 <Sgeo> http://virtualmacosx.com/index.php/xcode-plans
07:44:36 <Sgeo> Ooh, much cheaper than a real mac
07:45:01 <Sgeo> Assuming it's legitimate
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09:08:10 <Sgeo> Ick the website is so form-over-function
09:08:11 <Sgeo> https://www.apple.com/imac-with-retina/
09:08:17 <Sgeo> Have to scroll to get to -any- content
09:15:35 <ais523> Sgeo: Apple were forced to put a legal notice on their homepage a while back (by court order)
09:15:49 <ais523> they did so, with an image that automatically resized to push the notice below the fold regardless of how big your screen was
09:16:16 <ais523> presumably, after potentially getting in trouble for that, they decided to push everything on every page below the fold so that it wouldn't look suspicious
09:17:43 <fizzie> It looks very neat, but I'd like to know whether the image resolution is correct; they seem to have made that somewhat nontrivial to figure out.
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09:37:26 <fizzie> I guess it's at least close. Some empirical measurement (matching the content of the maximally zoomed-in image to the image with monitor boundaries included) and then extrapolating gave me around 5400x3000, which is reasonably close to the actual 5120x2880 resolution, and could be within the margin of error.
09:38:04 <fizzie> (5120x2880 looks ridiculous as a single-monitor resolution.)
09:40:57 <ais523> that's quite the resolution
09:44:34 <fizzie> Soon the monitor resolutions will go past my camera sensor resolution (5472x3648).
09:51:33 <fizzie> You could argue that the monitor's already past that, because the camera has a total of 5472*3648 actual pixels, with a RGGB color filter on top, while the monitor actually has 5120*3*2880 subpixels.
09:51:39 <fizzie> The school newspaper had access to a digital camera that recorded 640x480 JPGs on a 3.5" floppy.
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10:56:13 <Taneb> I'm going to see Guardians of the Galaxy again tonight
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10:59:48 <boily> Tanelle. why? and why the "Aaaah"?
11:00:43 <Taneb> boily, because it's on on my uni's student cinema
11:00:59 <Taneb> And because I've got like the entire soundtrack stuck in my head
11:07:17 <boily> nothing to worry about, then. it's a good soundtrack.
11:09:55 <Taneb> How are you doing, boily/
11:11:00 <boily> exhausted, but satisfied. we had a big major release Tuesday, and today it's beer to celebrate the occasion.
11:11:41 <boily> http://dental-wings.com/news/sneak-preview-dwos-40
11:13:52 <Taneb> Not the kind of thing I'm in the target audience for, though :)
11:14:47 <boily> it's indeed fancy and shiny ^^
11:16:56 <boily> how's your Friday going on, you who lives in the Future, six hours from now?
11:17:08 <boily> (or is it five away from us in the UK?)
11:17:13 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Fri Oct 17 12:17:13
11:17:40 <Taneb> Well, I'm a little bit ill, but I think I'm almost over this cold
11:19:26 <Taneb> Going to a... I want to say cybersecurity... competition tomorrow
11:20:43 <boily> meanwhile, I need to lâchement abandon you, otherwise I'll be late for the bus.
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11:21:16 <mroman> It should be against the law to galvanize chickens.
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11:50:31 <fizzie> What do people do at cybersecurity competitions?
11:51:09 <Taneb> Sort of puzzles like "Can you make an SQL injection to get the password?"
11:51:36 <fizzie> Oh, okay. Like the sort of thing people do over the web, except real-time and at a place?
11:52:03 <Taneb> Yeah, and in teams
11:53:50 <Taneb> Yeah, it's all staged
11:55:47 <elliott> fizzie: practice safe cybersex
11:56:42 <fizzie> Is there an association like AHA you need to apply for a "No Production Systems Were Harmed" logo for your cybersecurity competition?
12:00:25 <Taneb> This one is being ran by BAE
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13:16:45 <mroman> Some Animals were harmed in the process.
13:17:02 <mroman> Most of them are so small you can't see them with the naked eye.
13:18:09 <int-e> Melvar: I find looking up unicode characters too much of a hassle.
13:19:01 <HackEgo> U+1F5FC TOKYO TOWER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 97 bc UTF-16BE: d83dddfc Decimal: 🗼 \ 🗼 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:19:04 <Melvar> int-e: For me it’s just ⎄[] .
13:20:04 <HackEgo> U+1F435 MONKEY FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 b5 UTF-16BE: d83ddc35 Decimal: 🐵 \ 🐵 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:20:14 <int-e> Melvar: Sure, it's a matter of configuration and training. I simply don't need them; most of my output with fancy symbols is produced with LaTeX anyway.
13:21:03 <Melvar> Heh, I use the symbols when *writing* LaTeX.
13:22:13 <mroman> LaTeX doesn't even have utf8 support
13:22:16 <Melvar> Well, all the ones I know how to easily reach.
13:23:20 <Melvar> Right, I’ve been using inputenc utf8x, but I probably really ought to switch to luaLaTeX or something.
13:38:30 <fizzie> There's not only WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK SMALL SQUARE (the above) but also WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK VERY SMALL SQUARE and WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK MEDIUM SQUARE.
13:39:07 <fizzie> No LARGE or VERY LARGE ones, though. Perhaps the square containing them would have had to be too large.
13:39:45 <fizzie> What, BLACK SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE? Seriously.
13:40:43 <mroman> `unicode WHITE SQUARY CONTAINING BLACK SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE
13:40:48 <mroman> `unicode WHITE SQUARY CONTAINING BLACK
13:40:53 <mroman> `unicode WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK
13:40:54 <HackEgo> U+25A3 WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK SMALL SQUARE \ UTF-8: e2 96 a3 UTF-16BE: 25a3 Decimal: ▣ \ ▣ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:41:00 <mroman> `unicode WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK SLIGHTLY
13:41:29 <mroman> `unicode WHITE SQUARE CONTAINING BLACK VERY SMALL
13:41:54 <fizzie> The set of BLACK SQUAREs: BLACK {TINY,VERY SMALL,SMALL,SLIGHTLY SMALL,MEDIUM SMALL,MEDIUM,LARGE} SQUARE.
13:42:01 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's the correct order.
13:42:29 <fizzie> I guess TINY is smaller than VERY SMALL, but it's hard to say about SMALL vs. MEDIUM SMALL vs. SLIGHTLY SMALL.
13:42:35 <fizzie> Maybe SLIGHTLY SMALL is larger than SMALL?
13:42:54 <fizzie> Maybe MEDIUM SMALL is the same size as plain SMALL? This is confusing.
13:44:02 <TieSoul> the question is whether slightly small is smaller than medium small
13:44:22 <fizzie> There's also {LIGHT,MEDIUM,BOLD,HEAVY,VERY HEAVY,EXTREMELY HEAVY} WHITE SQUARE, and a set of WHITE SQUARE sizes that's slightly (NPI) smaller than that of BLACK SQUARE.
13:44:59 * Melvar is still disappointed that his attempt to embed unicode information in an idris module failed.
13:45:10 <fizzie> For example, a WHITE SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE does not exist, but a WHITE MEDIUM SMALL SQUARE does.
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14:06:47 <mroman> `unicode WHITE SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE
14:06:54 <mroman> WHERE IS THAT SQUARE???!?!?!?
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14:08:07 <TieSoul> `unicode BLACK SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE
14:08:13 <TieSoul> `unicode SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE
14:08:16 <TieSoul> `unicode SLIGHTLY SMALL BLACK SQUARE
14:08:33 <mroman> `unicode WHITE MEDIUM SMALL SQUARE
14:08:52 <TieSoul> `unicode BLACK MEDIUM SMALL SQUARE
14:09:03 <mroman> there's no SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE in geometric shapes
14:09:30 <mroman> just SQUARE, MEDIUM SQUARE, MEDIUM SMALL SQUARE, SMALL SQUARE
14:10:11 <TieSoul> `unicode BLACK TINY SQUARE
14:11:26 <fizzie> It's off there in the supplemental plane.
14:11:56 <fizzie> 1F78D;BLACK SLIGHTLY SMALL SQUARE
14:12:23 <fizzie> HackEgo's tools are deficient due to having a UCS-2 Python build, or so I recall.
14:13:21 <HackEgo> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
14:14:28 <fizzie> `run multicode -x 1F78D
14:14:29 <HackEgo> U+1F78D - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9f 9e 8d UTF-16BE: d83ddf8d Decimal: 🞍 \ 🞍 (🞍) \ Uppercase: U+1F78D \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
14:15:00 <fizzie> I was under the impression that someone installed that tool specifically because it had a built-in database instead of building on the Python module.
14:15:04 <fizzie> Perhaps it's just not new enough.
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15:17:53 <HackEgo> [U+1D6B LATIN SMALL LETTER UE]
15:26:04 <Taneb> I am enjoying learning Racket
15:26:13 <HackEgo> [U+8A9E CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8A9E]
15:31:01 <HackEgo> U+A980 JAVANESE SIGN PANYANGGA \ UTF-8: ea a6 80 UTF-16BE: a980 Decimal: ꦀ \ ꦀ \ Category: Mn (Mark, Non-Spacing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing Mark) \ \ U+A981 JAVANESE SIGN CECAK \ UTF-8: ea a6 81 UTF-16BE: a981 Decimal: ꦁ \ ꦁ \ Category: Mn (Mark, Non-Spacing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing Mark) \ \ U+A982 JAVANESE SIGN LAYAR \ UTF
15:31:16 <mroman> no logos for big companies :(
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15:40:52 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
15:41:16 <blsqbot> {{} 2 3 10 5 11 7 42 15 21 11 43 13 23 29 170 17 47 19 85}
15:41:32 <blsqbot> {1 6 7 52 13 222 15 840 121 858 27 28268 29 894 991 26896 49 113970 51 215892}
15:41:49 <mroman> @oeis 2,3,10,5,11,7,42
15:41:50 <lambdabot> Working in base 2, replace n by the concatenation of its prime divisors in i...
15:42:03 <lambdabot> a(n) is the number whose binary representation is the concatenation of the d...
15:43:30 <mroman> 1 is the number of 1 in itself
15:44:56 <mroman> 2,3 both describe the number of edges/corners in them
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16:03:18 <mroman> whats the unicode sign with the longest name?
16:11:56 <HackEgo> [U+0753 ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH THREE DOTS POINTING UPWARDS BELOW AND TWO DOTS ABOVE]
16:12:00 <b_jonas> that might not be the longest
16:12:09 <b_jonas> you'll have to look at the full database
16:12:33 <Jafet> `run find . -name UnicodeData.txt
16:12:43 <Jafet> `head bin/UnicodeData.txt
16:12:44 <HackEgo> 0000;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;NULL;;;; \ 0001;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;START OF HEADING;;;; \ 0002;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;START OF TEXT;;;; \ 0003;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;END OF TEXT;;;; \ 0004;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;END OF TRANSMISSION;;;; \ 0005;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;ENQUIRY;;;; \ 0006;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;ACKNOWLEDGE;;;; \ 0007;<control>;Cc
16:13:09 <b_jonas> no no, use a newest versoin
16:13:23 <Jafet> `wc UnicodeData.txt
16:13:23 <HackEgo> wc: UnicodeData.txt: No such file or directory
16:13:27 <Jafet> `wc bin/UnicodeData.txt
16:13:27 <HackEgo> 24434 109111 1367023 bin/UnicodeData.txt
16:17:02 <Jafet> `run sed 's/[^;]*;\([^;]*\);.*/\1/' bin/UnicodeData.txt | awk '{print length($0) " " $0;}' | sort -nr | cut -d\ -f2-
16:17:03 <HackEgo> ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM \ ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA INITIAL FORM \ ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA FINAL FORM \ CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY \ ARABIC LETTER B
16:17:14 <Jafet> `run sed 's/[^;]*;\([^;]*\);.*/\1/' bin/UnicodeData.txt | awk '{print length($0) " " $0;}' | sort -nr | cut -d\ -f2- | fgrep -v ARABIC
16:17:15 <HackEgo> CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY \ DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB LEFT BESIDE DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB RIGHT \ RIGHTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN ABOVE LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN \ MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-3 \ MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLA
16:18:40 <Bike> what'd arabic ever do to you
16:19:32 <Jafet> It's a very, very long story
16:19:48 <lifthrasiir> how about the random Unicode character name generator
16:21:05 <b_jonas> how many four letter or shorter names are there?
16:23:08 <Bike> `run sed 's/[^;]*;\([^;]*\);.*/\1/' bin/UnicodeData.txt | awk '{print length($0) " " $0;}' | sort -n | cut -d\ -f2-
16:23:09 <HackEgo> OX \ ANT \ ARC \ BOY \ BUG \ BUS \ CAT \ COW \ DOG \ DVD \ EAR \ IMP \ KEY \ LEO \ MAN \ NOR \ PIG \ RAM \ RAT \ SUN \ XOR \ ANKH \ BABY \ BANK \ BATH \ BELL \ BIRD \ BOAR \ BOMB \ DOOR \ EYES \ FIRE \ FISH \ FUSE \ GEAR \ GIRL \ GOAT \ HERB \ JOIN \ JUNO \ KISS \ LOCK \ MEMO \ MINY \ NAND \ NOSE \ ODEN \ PEAR \ PICK \ PILL \ RAIN \ RING \ ROSE \ S
16:23:46 <Bike> "Comments: second of the signs of the Asian zodiac"
16:23:56 <Bike> (asian zodiac what the hell)
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18:00:23 <FireFly> `run sed 's/[^;]*;\([^;]*\);.*/\1/' bin/UnicodeData.txt | awk '{print length($0) " " $0;}' | sort -n | cut -d\ -f2- | wc -l
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18:01:16 <Melvar> `` wc -l bin/UnicodeData.txt
18:02:02 <Melvar> Hm, not the newest I guess.
18:04:18 <FireFly> `run sed 's/[^;]*;\([^;]*\);.*/\1/' bin/UnicodeData.txt | awk '{print length($0) " " $0;}' | grep -P '^[1-4]\b' | wc -l
18:04:22 <mroman> Terve, Fizzie. Mitä kuuluu?
18:04:34 <mroman> (yes, that means the books are here)
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18:06:16 <Melvar> FireFly: See, on my system that says 68.
18:08:18 <FireFly> My system apparently has two copies of UnicodeData.txt, and both are smaller than HackEgo's ._.
18:08:49 <Melvar> “27268 /usr/share/unicode/ucd/UnicodeData.txt”
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19:50:01 <fizzie> I don't like the Euclidean norm problem, since it's so finicky about the floating-point formatting. (And they could've picked something a bit more regular, like fixed-number-of-decimals instead of the %g-style "remove trailing zeros and decimal points" nonsense.)
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19:54:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: that, or provide a more specific result tester than just string comparison (after stripping cariage returns and trailing newlines)
19:54:29 <b_jonas> though you can't do that on anagolf
19:54:42 <fizzie> I don't know, there's already all those special problems.
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19:54:58 <b_jonas> sure, but I mean you can't do that on anagolf without shinh's support
19:55:41 <fizzie> Right, right. Arguably perhaps even a generic "sequence of numbers" problem type could make sense.
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19:56:21 <fizzie> One of the Euclidean norm results goes wrong in the last decimal if you do it with Befunge-98 FPSP single-precision floats.
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22:38:17 <oerjan> beat you on mail merge
22:39:06 <boily> oerjan making “whee” doesn't feel natural. I can't associate an oerjan-whee with the same voice as an oerjan-OKAY.
22:39:09 <oerjan> and i also discovered that it's not entirely safe to err out at the end of the program.
22:39:32 <oerjan> (i got output cut off because of that.)
22:39:34 <int-e> I discovered that, too.
22:41:14 <oerjan> it's worked in previous programs, but i think they mostly used the m@main=getLine>>=...>>m template
22:41:25 <oerjan> so ordering was enforced by IO
22:41:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Turns out the official channel does in fact have a bot that announces all improvements.
22:41:46 <fizzie> Yes. I "bit the bullet" and went there.
22:41:56 <fizzie> [01:37:44] -mircbot_:#anagol- oerjan submits 171B of Haskell for Mail merge, ranking #1 (10000pts).
22:44:26 <int-e> oerjan: Ok, caught up.
22:45:06 <fizzie> First person gets the better rank in case of ties, though, right?
22:45:08 <int-e> just changed a [] to _
22:45:42 <fizzie> elliott: Were you actually serious about wanting my SparcStation and the SGI Indy? I mean, it might be that the relocation package includes a certain volume of shipped goods, so I could theoretically even stick them in there. I'm certainly not using them for anything, that's for sure, and keeping them here in the basement is not all that useful either.
22:46:04 <int-e> oerjan: I got so annoyed about the encoding issues that I stopped improving the program, though it does look pretty tight.
22:46:55 <fizzie> Only 102 bytes to go to reach the practicality of Befunge(-98).
22:47:48 <oerjan> int-e: i briefly considered whether to try importing bytestrings (it's available, and has no encoding issue) but the prelude clashes and the long names means it probably wouldn't have helped.
22:51:35 <oerjan> i also tied henkma on the swapping earlier. let's see if that still holds.
23:00:41 <oerjan> hm actually importing it qualified only makes the whole thing 5 chars longer.
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23:23:57 <oerjan> (not with bytestring though)
23:36:16 <int-e> > map length ["mapM putStrLn","putStr.unlines","interact.const.unlines"]
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01:20:17 <Sgeo> How much truth is there to the Apple claim that only allowing their hardware lets them focus on it? I mean, it seems to make sense to me, anyway, just very few sets of drivers to develop and maintain
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01:25:11 <Sgeo> Also, when people say Macs are overpriced... by how much? I can live with a few hundred extra... not a few thousand extra though
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07:47:33 <mroman> what's this consonant gradation thing?
07:53:05 <J_Arcane> You mean the weak and strong forms?
07:53:27 <J_Arcane> Pitää vs. minä pidän and so forth?
07:54:06 <J_Arcane> Just more fun with Finnish, basically. It does sort of make sense, English is full of those little shortcuts, it's just trying to define a rule for it turns out to be a lot of damn rules to remember ...
08:00:35 <J_Arcane> It's a pronunciation aid in it's original form, I think, just like the vowel harmony; in normal speech a lot of those simplifications and switches roll off the tongue better, but remembering them all as a foriegner is tricky.
08:02:28 <mroman> always or just for some kotus type thingies?
08:02:50 <coppro> J_Arcane: I'm a native English speaker and trying to think of all the ways that we do that makes my head hurt
08:02:56 <coppro> it's not as bad as Quebec French though
08:04:27 <J_Arcane> coppro: English is like the hardest language. XD I think the reason it survives (beyond a lot of problematic history) as a global language is because it's still largely tolerant of error.
08:04:47 <J_Arcane> You can be bad at English, really bad, and still get your point across.
08:05:47 <mroman> no cases, no conjugation, few exceptions
08:06:37 <mroman> no "la/le" "der/die/das" stuff
08:07:46 <viznut> english has a very difficult relationship between spelling and pronunciation, it is full of idioms that make little sense, there is parallel latin and germanic vocabulary for just about anything, etc
08:08:55 <viznut> the grammatical basics are simple, but the basics are seldom enough for fluency
08:09:06 <mroman> strong grade is used in the syllable, which is open (ends with vowel), weak grade when syllable is closed (ends with consonant)
08:09:09 <J_Arcane> mroman: Because there's so many exceptions and special cases, you can ignore them and pretend they don't exist, except when trying to transition from one to another.
08:09:32 <J_Arcane> English *does* have cases, and conjugation, and so forth, it's just not *taught* that way because the rules are no rules at all.
08:09:57 <J_Arcane> Instead we tend to just teach 'well you use this word for this tense, and that word for this one, etc. etc.'
08:10:09 <mroman> kukasta is weak, but ends with a vowel
08:10:15 <J_Arcane> And dear god, the ambiguous prepositions ...
08:10:47 <viznut> ku-kas-ta, s is a consonant
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08:21:21 <coppro> English does not have noun cases
08:21:44 <coppro> (or, I should say, it doesn't have declension except for pronouns)
08:22:28 <coppro> It also has verb conjugation, but there are at most five true forms for any verb other than 'be'
08:22:55 <coppro> all the rest is done by auxiliaries
08:23:27 <viznut> i count the 's-genitive as a noun case
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09:39:30 <b_jonas> but of course, Hungarian is hard too, it's just that it's not always hard in the same ways
10:02:49 <mroman> coppro: compared to other languages the conjugation are very simple
10:03:02 <mroman> sure, there are tenses.
10:07:18 <elliott> fizzie: I'm definitely not going to say no if you're offering! I love weird old hardware. not sure how much of a fuss the logistics of getting them to me would be, I guess they're too bulky to reasonably ship off in a normal package? I have to do the sleeping thing now, though. (also, I assume this means congratulations on getting the job?!)
10:09:53 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I mean, I got a definite offer, but I haven't accepted it yet, since I've yet to hear from the other place I applied to.
10:10:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slist: not found
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11:32:53 <fizzie> Bah. This 'highlight' tool supports all kinds of niche languages I've never even heard of ("Biferno"? "ABAP/4"? "MoonScript"? "SuperX++"?), but not Forth.
11:33:40 <fizzie> Sure, there's not that much syntax to highlight, but there's at least numbers, comments, and well-established parsing words like : ; ." and so.
11:37:11 <mroman> it compiles to Lua o_O
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11:44:36 <fizzie> I think it sounded vaguely familiar.
11:44:41 <fizzie> Or at least familiarest of those.
11:44:47 <fizzie> That was a non-exhaustive list.
11:45:08 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
11:45:20 <fizzie> There's also "Not eXactly C" and "Yaiff" and "Yang" and "Zonnon", for example.
11:45:38 <fizzie> And "Squirrel" with file extension .nut, which sounds familiar though I can't quite place it.
11:45:38 <MDude> That'd be especially bad if you were trying to use ColorForth!
11:46:26 <fizzie> (Wrote a BOLG POST about some golf entries; my "blog engine" uses highlight for codey bits.)
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13:17:53 <int-e> oerjan: I did a bit of catching up.
13:17:58 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to
13:18:16 <oerjan> can someone fix `undo please :(
13:19:41 <oerjan> `sed -i 's|rm bin/slist; ||' bin/slist
13:19:41 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
13:19:47 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's|rm bin/slist; ||' bin/slist
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13:21:25 <oerjan> i'm sure i vaguely recall there was some joking rationale for making that file self-deleting, but my humor keeps deteriorating.
13:22:21 <oerjan> also, we no longer have log search.
13:22:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/undo
13:27:56 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | paste
13:27:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.25739
13:28:53 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -R --dry-run
13:28:54 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to
13:29:35 <int-e> oerjan: you were not involved, apparently: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-10-18 (03:01 ... 03:18)
13:29:41 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -R --dry-run
13:29:42 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to
13:29:50 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -p0 -R --dry-run
13:29:51 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to patch
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13:29:55 <int-e> (now do I want to figure out what slist was? I guess not.)
13:29:57 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -p1 -R --dry-run
13:31:41 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/-R/-p1 -R/' bin/undo
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13:32:18 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some way that will break for other files.
13:33:22 <int-e> `` hg diff -c 5074
13:33:23 <HackEgo> diff -r 5ac8a6965ce8 -r 08a929427374 bin/undo \ --- a/bin/undoSat Oct 18 13:30:29 2014 +0000 \ +++ b/bin/undoSat Oct 18 13:31:12 2014 +0000 \ @@ -1,2 +1,2 @@ \ #!/bin/sh \ -hg diff -c "$@" | patch -R \ +hg diff -c "$@" | patch -p1 -R
13:34:13 <TieSoul> So I'm writing another Funge-98 interpreter, and I'm having some trouble with Mycology (again)
13:34:24 <TieSoul> GOOD: u with a positive count transfers cells correctly BAD: u with a positive count transfers cells incorrectly
13:34:40 <TieSoul> everything else is GOOD up to that point
13:34:45 <oerjan> i'm particularly worried about the /dev/null case, so i hope that's special cased.
13:35:48 <oerjan> int-e: `slist is homestuck iirc
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13:37:37 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
13:37:44 <HackEgo> slist 10/18: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
13:37:58 <HackEgo> diff -r b1c3b71f6b09 -r b69bb8ef2199 quotes \ --- a/quotesThu Nov 22 23:35:11 2012 +0000 \ +++ b/quotesFri Nov 23 08:58:56 2012 +0000 \ @@ -1,4 +1,3 @@ \ -<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as
13:38:05 <atriq> oerjan: good timing
13:38:32 <oerjan> atriq: i'm just repeating the command Sgeo did because `slist had been made self-deleting.
13:38:35 <int-e> strange. I'd expect -p1 to be necessary
13:38:53 <int-e> but... http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/5e1c1f3d6df7
13:38:54 <oerjan> int-e: um yes it is? that's what i changed.
13:40:24 <oerjan> int-e: i think it happens to work when the files are in HackEgo's home directory or something, since broken `undo has often strewn files there.
13:41:22 <int-e> oerjan: I know, I'm looking at logs, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-01-24#211227Gregor ff.
13:42:44 <int-e> And I have no clue how a plain -R can work, even by accident.
13:43:00 <oerjan> elliott: Gregor: some explanation would be nice.
13:45:32 <int-e> oh wait, just read the documentation. "not specifying -p at all just gives you blurfl.c" [the example path is /u/howard/src/blurfl/blurfl.c]
13:45:47 <int-e> so yes it only works for files in the root directory.
13:45:58 <int-e> and -p1 is clearly the right thing to do.
13:46:58 <atriq> Can anyone link me an explanation of the char[] main stuff?
13:47:17 <int-e> atriq: huh, in what context?
13:47:24 <oerjan> atriq: i think it's just machine code as a string?
13:47:47 <oerjan> and since C's linker isn't typed, it treats that as if it's a defined function.
13:47:51 <atriq> oerjan: I'd prefer something more detailed, such as how to make one myself
13:48:00 <int-e> oh, there's that IOCCC entry, yes. that just defines a symbol "main" or ("_main") pointing to machine code.
13:49:37 <int-e> which may or may not work; usually that code would end up in the data section and that may not be executable.
13:49:43 * oerjan not good with assembler
13:53:47 <int-e> char main[]="\xc3"; ==> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
13:54:21 <int-e> (0xc3 is retq, it's an empty function. but the data segment cannot be executed, hence it dumps core instead.)
13:56:32 <oerjan> perhaps the const matters?
13:56:34 <int-e> the same code works on x86, apparently.
13:57:24 * oerjan not good with C whatchamacallits either
13:57:49 <oerjan> but i'd imagine if data is for changeable data, consts might be stored in the code segment
13:58:06 <int-e> with const it'll end up in .rodata, right that helps. interesting.
13:58:49 <Jafet> If the linker and kernel agree that .rodata is nonexec, you'll get a segfault anyway
13:59:06 <int-e> Jafet: it helps = that does work for me.
13:59:21 <int-e> interesting = I wonder why. :)
13:59:36 <Jafet> Sometimes they disagree, and rodata is executable
13:59:49 <Jafet> sometimes = pretty often
14:01:34 <oerjan> int-e: grmbl why do you always beat me on the golfs where i think i've been particularly clever.
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14:01:55 <oerjan> (disclaimer: confirmation bias at work)
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14:02:17 <int-e> oerjan: henkma did it first.
14:03:26 <int-e> oerjan: and I was feeling the same about hello hello world.
14:06:25 <int-e> (and actually the statistics helped me on that one)
14:06:44 <oerjan> right. how can you have so many fewer alphanums than me when the main (insignificant) change i can see is changing an operator to a function to get _more_
14:07:58 <oerjan> no, gvim, you're _not_ supposed to stupidly resize when i focus.
14:10:43 <int-e> hmm, funny. I have a solution of length 85 with 52 alphanums, none with more.
14:11:33 <int-e> oh wait, I can push that to 54
14:12:09 <int-e> (oops. no, that doesn't work.)
14:14:36 <b_jonas> how do you specify the result of {jorne} or {lasna}? the best I can think of is to add a {fi'o sumji} or {fi'o ve jmina} modal place
14:15:08 <int-e> that sounds perfectly esoteric
14:15:48 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it's just like perl. you can do sane things or esoteric things in it, but the esoteric stuff is funnier
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15:22:18 <Gregor> <oerjan> elliott: Gregor: some explanation would be nice. // I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain.
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15:52:05 <oerjan> Gregor: how you ended up putting no -p1 in `undo, i guess. although the log linked showed some confusion about it.
15:53:15 <oerjan> but the answer is probably "because someone tested it without in the particular case where it actually doesn't break".
15:53:47 <oerjan> (someone being either you or elliott)
15:54:32 <oerjan> i suppose this was after something changed that made the old version break.
15:54:55 <oerjan> if there was an old version, maybe not.
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15:58:00 <oerjan> ah square root of minus garfield has started its birthday special sequence
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15:59:21 <int-e> all agree, a miracle!
15:59:37 <int-e> `` cd $HOME; pwd; env pwd
15:59:46 <oerjan> are you sure it's not an evil conspiracy.
16:00:35 <InvalidCo> I've just found my self writing an in-place-macro
16:00:44 <InvalidCo> for the sole purpose of being able to inline code generating code
16:00:44 <int-e> `` ln -s tmp /mtp; cd /mtp; pwd; env pwd; rm /mtp
16:00:45 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `/mtp': Permission denied \ bash: line 0: cd: /mtp: No such file or directory \ /hackenv \ /hackenv \ rm: cannot remove `/mtp': No such file or directory
16:01:04 <InvalidCo> int-e: what on earth are you doing?
16:01:07 <int-e> `` ln -s /tmp mtp; cd mtp; pwd; env pwd; rm mtp
16:01:09 <HackEgo> /hackenv/mtp \ /tmp \ rm: cannot remove `mtp': No such file or directory
16:01:32 <int-e> oh, hackenv ... grr.
16:01:50 <Bike> i kind of like maru's model, where a macro is just a normal function wrapped in a container that makes the evaluator and compiler do the right semantics.
16:01:51 <oerjan> http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/
16:03:09 <Bike> about five pounds!
16:03:11 <int-e> huh? Done, but not done?!
16:03:22 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access mtp: No such file or directory
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16:03:52 <oerjan> int-e: i am not convinced you reverted the right thing
16:04:14 <int-e> well it's gone, but why isn't it in codu's log...
16:04:36 <oerjan> it was a symbolic link
16:04:50 <oerjan> int-e: well that's a known bug, it doesn't work well with empty files
16:05:09 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Oct 18 16:04 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Oct 18 16:02 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 18 16:04 home \ drwxr-xr-x 11 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 lib6
16:05:20 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
16:05:26 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
16:05:42 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `mtp': No such file or directory
16:06:00 <oerjan> wait it still doesn't show up
16:06:54 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
16:07:01 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 4 Oct 18 16:05 mtp -> /tmp
16:07:17 <int-e> I think the real question is why there was a commit for a change that should've been in the hackenv subdirectory
16:08:28 <oerjan> i think this transaction business is somewhat flaky.
16:08:28 <int-e> so the repo and hackego are now out of sync.
16:08:40 <oerjan> no, i think they're back in sync now
16:08:43 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access mtp: No such file or directory
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16:09:21 <int-e> yes they are, thanks
16:09:46 <int-e> anyway I still don't get what happened.
16:10:14 <oerjan> both symbolic links and empty files can confuse things, so the way to fix things is to turn the mess into an _ordinary_ file, then rm it normally. i think.
16:10:25 <int-e> does restarting the transaction change the cwd somehow?
16:11:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
16:12:01 <int-e> sigh, I forget that /hackenv *is* the root of the repo. Sorry.
16:13:33 <Taneb> Well, that was a fun day
16:13:36 <oerjan> Gregor: it would be nice if `revert didn't break the repository <-> actual directory contents correspondence when empty files are involved twh
16:14:29 <oerjan> Gregor: so that it would be possible to see whether things are broken or fixed, like.
16:15:08 <oerjan> Taneb: not too many casualties, i hope.
16:16:27 <Taneb> oerjan, Capture-The-Flag competition run by BAE's Computer Intelligence people
16:16:41 <Taneb> A lot of challenges involving cryptography and cybersecurity
16:16:46 <Taneb> One of which was to write brainfuck
16:17:02 <Taneb> Only two teams got that
16:17:06 <oerjan> int-e: i think the thing to do is (1) get the repository and actual directory to agree whether the file _exists_ (2) rm it properly.
16:17:09 <Taneb> Only one of which (me) did it properly
16:19:16 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure how there can _be_ an actual directory if there are simultaneously running programs, though.
16:19:21 <Taneb> (two programs were needed to complete the challenge, one of which was to print a certain string, easy enough)
16:19:51 <Taneb> (the second was to read a line from input that starts with an ASCII digit, then repeat the line that digit number of times)
16:20:47 <mroman> I have a language that compiles to itself.
16:21:05 <oerjan> mroman: how metacircular.
16:22:23 <mroman> echo being the compiler for it
16:23:08 <oerjan> ^bf ,------------------------------------------------>,[>,]<[<]<[->>[.>]<[<]<]!3test
16:23:55 <oerjan> ^bf ,------------------------------------------------>>,[>,]<[<]<[->>[.>]<[<]<]!3test
16:26:13 <mroman> "Superx++ is an object-oriented language that is entirely based on XML's syntactical structure. Superx++ conforms with the XML version 1.0 specification as published on the W3C web site. Programming in XML itself has great potential and Superx++ pushes the envelope!"
16:27:01 <boily> it seems someone had a bad case of XSLT.
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16:28:07 <mroman> The advantage of creating esolangs based on XML is that you can easily parse it
16:28:18 <mroman> like with JAXB (Java) for example
16:28:26 <mroman> you essentially get XML-parsing/writing for free
16:28:33 <mroman> it can even generate an XSD for it
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17:00:05 <int-e> haha, superx++ has a "short" format which ... http://xplusplus.sourceforge.net/Samples/ArrTest_shx.htm ... err, looks like C++ with a couple of extra semicolons?
17:11:24 <mroman> of course it's useless
17:12:41 <mroman> finally complete. It has been released on the web site of Emergent Logic LLC, the company I formed to promote Superx++
17:12:51 <mroman> he created a company to promote SuperX++
17:13:38 <mroman> although emergentlogic.com isn't a registered domain
17:14:46 <mroman> http://xplusplus.sourceforge.net/FAQ.htm
17:14:53 <fizzie> "ART PRIZE [ITALY]: Marina de Tommaso, Michele Sardaro, and Paolo Livrea, for measuring the relative pain people suffer while looking at an ugly painting, rather than a pretty painting, while being shot [in the hand] by a powerful laser beam."
17:15:03 <mroman> Who wants to write SuperX++ by hand
17:15:29 <fizzie> (Ig Nobels are always worth looking at, and the 2014 ones were awarded relatively recently.)
17:15:47 <mroman> this guy is more serious about his SuperX++ than I'm about Burlesque
17:16:54 <mroman> also... if XML is so cool
17:16:59 <mroman> why did he invent the C-like syntax
17:17:09 <fizzie> If XML is so cool, then why aren't you rich?
17:17:16 <mroman> He kinda made SuperX++ because he thinks XML-Syntax > C-like Syntax
17:17:23 <mroman> then suddenly he adds C-like syntax
17:17:34 <mroman> fizzie: Why would XML make me rich?
17:18:06 <fizzie> That was just a "if it's so X then why aren't you Y" thing.
17:18:42 <mroman> But I still think it's somewhat contra his initial opinion
17:19:03 <mroman> since the best benefits of SuperX++ is, that it's XML
17:24:16 <b_jonas> oh great, this says gcc 4.9 libstdc++ has the make_unique function!
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17:32:35 <mroman> If C++ is so cool then why do I not like it?
17:33:21 <mroman> (probably mostly because too much line noise, references vs ptrs, you have to do your own memmgmt
17:34:02 <mroman> too much const (auto_ptr)&*std:<bost:::<><>>make_ptr:uniqiu_potr
17:35:23 <mroman> (that's just a rant. Not to start a discussion. Pls don't relpy to the above. thx)
17:37:48 <j-bot> mroman: |syntax error
17:41:33 <Sgeo> j-bot uses [ now? And is not named jconn?
17:44:56 <Sgeo> Is Factor dead? I do seem some development on it, but not sure if it's just a little bit
17:48:52 <b_jonas> Sgeo: it's forks of the same bot ran by different people
17:49:11 <b_jonas> there's like eight different names used so far by about six people running that bot
17:49:24 <b_jonas> you can also use its full name
17:59:35 <Sgeo> Hmm. It occurs to me that Factor might be exactly the sort of language where if you're writing lenses, you really, really, want to be able to use native function composition
18:03:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrew Melrose * New user account
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19:20:55 <mroman> ais523: Now I need to circumvent your spam protections
19:21:04 <mroman> my language generation bot needs that
19:21:20 <mroman> how many generated languages shall it publish a day :D?
19:21:33 <ais523> mroman: if it's something that would seriously benefit the wiki, I can give it an exemption
19:21:58 <ais523> however, if you're generating unboundedly many languages, may as well just write a page about the generator, unless they're all individually interesting
19:21:59 <mroman> it wouldn't benefit anything
19:22:21 <ais523> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
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20:24:05 <elliott> fizzie: ah, well, I suppose I'd better wish you luck in getting a better offer then :p
20:33:36 <fizzie> That would be counterproductive from your point of view, since the other place's in Germany, though.
20:33:55 <elliott> yes, but it shows how selfless and caring I am, see?
20:34:10 <fizzie> Ohhh, right, I see. Of course.
20:34:30 <elliott> that way if you get a good offer in germany you'll be overcome by guilt at not being able to reward my kindness, and be forced to turn it down.
20:35:03 <elliott> (I like how you were bemused at either me having a non-selfish bone in my body, or possibly anyone at all having a non-selfish bone in their body.)
20:39:53 <fizzie> As for physically moving those things, they are kind of heavy. I mean, I'm sure the post would take them, but I think it'd be at least a "Medium Parcel".
20:39:58 <fizzie> Though we were thinking of doing some trips to Scotland (depending on how vacations and the like happen), and I guess most of the rest of UK would be more or less on the way there.
20:40:02 <fizzie> Well, we'll see. This all would most likely be start of next year at the earliest.
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20:41:14 <elliott> fizzie: I am a little worried that this would put us at a very critical mass for a UK #esoteric meetup.
20:42:37 <Bicyclidine> it's going to be a problem when you start fissioning and irradiate the place
20:44:26 <ais523> it takes like a day to travel from Scotland to the south of the UK
20:44:39 <ais523> although I guess Hexham's quite close to the south part of Scotland
20:44:56 <b_jonas> make all the others travel to scotland instead then
20:45:15 <mroman> Are you planning an #esoteric meetup in UK?
20:45:24 <fizzie> I've had enough trouble keeping track of all the Finnish people, I have no idea (a) how many UKers there are, and (b) how they've spread across the place.
20:45:50 <ais523> we're scared of the possibility
20:46:09 <ais523> most likely because it'd raise the chance of elliott and Taneb knowingly meeting a long way above zero
20:46:50 <boily> (btw, where's that madbr guy...)
20:46:54 <elliott> fizzie: of the people who are around these days, I think me, ais523, ph, taneb, impomatic?
20:47:14 <ais523> I didn't know that impomatic was British, but in retrospect, I should have guessed
20:48:07 <fizzie> Is Lord British British, by the way?
20:48:19 <fizzie> "British / American", says Wikipedia, so I guess kinda.
20:48:36 <ais523> the Lord British Postulate is hilarious
20:49:08 <ais523> (basically, the defining characteristic of Lord British the fictional character is indestructability; thus, whenever he's placed in a computer game, people inevitably find some way to kill him)
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21:29:13 <Taneb> elliott, impomatic is british?
21:29:25 <elliott> unless I'm seriously mistaken
21:30:42 <oerjan> interesting, the logs about the `slist self-deletion which were linked were exactly one year ago. which caused me some confusion just now when trying to bring up today's logs from the address bar :P
21:31:03 <Taneb> oerjan, the gigapause was a year-long
21:33:11 <Taneb> Also I fear we've lost a bftxtgen
21:33:48 <HackEgo> 43 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++++>><<<<-]>.+.>+. [187]
21:34:31 <Taneb> Oooh I did not know you could do that
21:34:44 <oerjan> we've got most of the things ported to HackEgo from EgoBot mostly working now. there probably are still exceptions.
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21:35:38 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/help: not found
21:35:44 <fizzie> Arguably, maybe that should do something?
21:35:49 <oerjan> fizzie: ok maybe not that one.
21:37:08 <oerjan> also, `! c still has the flaw that it no longer supports whole modules are arguments, because gcc now accepts so much junk inside main that everything tends to compile with the inside-main version first.
21:37:28 <oerjan> however, the `cc command does the whole module version, so it's no disaster.
21:38:12 <oerjan> (although it might be confusing for people who expect `cc to work as a synonym for gcc
21:39:01 <fizzie> `cc b;main(a){for(;a<501;)printf("%d\\n",b+=a&-a++);}
21:39:01 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage class [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:23: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default] \ 1 \ 3 \ 4 \ 8 \ 9 \ 11 \ 12 \ 20 \ 21 \ 23 \ 24 \ 28 \ 29 \ 31 \ 32 \ 48 \ 49 \ 51 \ 52 \ 56 \ 57 \ 59 \
21:39:15 <fizzie> I keep getting caught by the \n \\n thing.
21:39:21 <oerjan> oh, and HackEgo doesn't have haskell. the infrastructure for _calling_ haskell from `! is all there, just not an actually installed ghc.
21:39:34 <zzo38> Is it possible in Windows Vista to make a custom keyboard layout and set it for only one account?
21:40:18 <oerjan> we _do_ still have lambdabot.
21:40:27 <oerjan> although it doesn't accept whole modules.
21:41:01 <HackEgo> bin/fueue: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x917b248982ab816231581ea2110accfe9423e4ec, not stripped
21:41:26 <oerjan> i don't recall which fueue interpreter that was generated from.
21:41:56 <oerjan> oh, and of course all the `userinterps from EgoBot haven't been transferred afaik.
21:42:16 <oerjan> which includes some implementations of esolangs in other languages.
21:43:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%21
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21:46:25 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo "echo '"'The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.') >ibin/help
21:46:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/help: Permission denied
21:46:42 <oerjan> `run chmod +x ibin/help
21:46:46 <HackEgo> ibin/help: 3: ibin/help: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string
21:46:54 <HackEgo> cat: bin/help: No such file or directory
21:46:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo 'The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.
21:47:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i "2s/$/'/" ibin/help
21:47:38 <HackEgo> The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.
21:47:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i "2s/` for/ for/" ibin/help
21:47:56 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
21:48:04 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/` for/ for/' ibin/help
21:48:09 <HackEgo> The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/ for a list.
21:48:17 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u
21:48:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin
21:49:29 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/ls /url /' ibin/help
21:50:02 <Taneb> I have just written the most commented brainfuck file I have ever written
21:50:07 <oerjan> `run url ibin/; echo hi
21:50:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin \ hi
21:50:18 <HackEgo> The ! command calurl various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/ for a list.
21:50:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/ls ibin/url ibin/' ibin/help
21:50:59 <HackEgo> The ! command calurl various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
21:51:26 <oerjan> fizzie: your privmsg got in the way
21:52:13 <oerjan> fizzie: it is not polite to do other changes while someone is trying to edit a file hth
21:52:19 <Taneb> https://gist.github.com/Taneb/ed9bb3db765d16bf6c3f
21:52:33 <elliott> oerjan: you could just unpack a ghc/hp tarball probably
21:52:37 <Taneb> (it was for the CTF today)
21:52:52 <Taneb> (input must begin with an ASCII digit and be newline-terminated)
21:53:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found
21:54:00 <oerjan> why does `! glass need a cache anyway.
21:54:32 <HackEgo> The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
21:54:49 <Taneb> (only two teams solved the brainfuck challenge and the other team only solved it for some inputs)
21:55:12 <elliott> oerjan: you can store things in it i think
21:57:16 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: HackEgo used to have ghc but then it moved servers.
21:57:52 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't think I was at least consciously doing any changes.
21:57:59 <oerjan> so there are probably still broken haskell-based commands in it. unless they were all statically linked.
21:58:12 <oerjan> fizzie: yeah `! glass has a cache for some reason.
21:58:22 <fizzie> `! glass {M[mxA!yO!a<1>=b<0>=c<20>=/ccc*<1>xs.?=b*y(on).?" "yo.?ba*aa*b*xa.?==\]}
21:58:23 <HackEgo> 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181
21:59:04 <fizzie> Even though it took me an absurd amount of attempts to get that written, as the version history shows.
21:59:18 <oerjan> i vaguely do seem to recall glass used to have some preserved state, yeah
21:59:25 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, I started learning Racket this week and I know this is shocking but I think I like it a lot
21:59:43 <oerjan> fizzie: put it on the wiki
22:00:09 <fizzie> There is already a Fibonacci sequence in the wiki, though a lot longer.
22:00:50 <fizzie> Arguably more proper, there's a "f" function and it uses locals instead of object-scope variables even though those involve (_x) in place of x.
22:01:09 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, it's like Scheme
22:01:23 <Taneb> I think it's like Scheme in the way that GHC is like Haskell
22:01:36 <Bicyclidine> i think ghc is more standards conformant than racket
22:02:04 <Bicyclidine> racket kinda does its own thing, i mean it used to be "PLT Scheme" but now it ain't
22:02:33 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/command/or interp command/' ibin/help
22:02:40 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
22:02:59 <oerjan> to only affect the second line
22:03:21 <Sgeo> Standard HAskell should just run directly with GHC, right? Standard Scheme isn't always valid Racket code
22:03:29 <oerjan> sort of redundant there, but i just kept editing my first version
22:03:36 <Sgeo> Racket uses iimmutable cons cells
22:03:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: actually ghc deviates from the standard in some minor points.
22:04:26 <oerjan> and 7.10 will get far worse, although hopefully it will come with a new standard version.
22:05:11 <oerjan> (the main point until now is that ghc drops Eq and Show as superclasses of Num.)
22:05:57 <ais523> I can understand Num not requiring Show
22:06:04 <ais523> but Num not requiring Eq's a bit hard to get my head around
22:06:06 <ais523> is it for things like CReal?
22:06:26 <oerjan> i think there is some discussion going on about exactly _how_ much 7.10 will change. someone started protesting the Prelude changes.
22:06:42 <oerjan> ais523: yeah and also for things like Num b => Num (a -> b)
22:07:27 <ais523> how popular are non-ghc Haskell impls?
22:07:29 <oerjan> elliott: yeah, but there's also a plan to move Foldable and Traversable to the Prelude, which has caused controversy. i'd know more but all the golfing recently has caused my r/haskell reading to slip :P
22:07:35 <ais523> popular enough for anyone to care about compatibility with them?
22:07:49 <elliott> oerjan: is it just the regular "nothing should change ever"
22:08:00 <elliott> oh, is it because it'd make foldr more polymorphic and so errors and such?
22:08:06 <Taneb> Some of my friends and I were going to write one, though
22:08:16 <oerjan> elliott: well they're planning to change the types of foldr in the Prelude, for example.
22:08:17 <ais523> Taneb: a Haskell impl? interesting
22:08:26 <Sgeo> Probably the best thing about Racket is the emphasis on error reporting
22:08:33 <elliott> Bicyclidine: like in mathematics.
22:08:38 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: pointwise addition, multiplication etc.
22:08:39 <Taneb> ais523, on the basis that YHC is unmaintained, we were going to make a New York Haskell Compiler
22:08:46 <ais523> Bicyclidine: f + g = \x.(f x + g x)
22:08:55 <ais523> Taneb: is this purely just for the name?
22:09:06 <Taneb> And, well, we're in York
22:09:27 <Bicyclidine> every passing moment i grow more and moe sure that maths notation is the world's enemy
22:09:35 <Sgeo> If I did lenses in Factor, I'm going to need to do them in reverse
22:09:48 <Bicyclidine> anyway someone define the inner product space of square integrable functions in haskell for me, thx
22:09:58 <Taneb> So it is /a/ York Haskell Compiler
22:10:01 <ais523> Bicyclidine: my notation was verity, at least the bit past the =
22:10:04 <Taneb> And it's new relative to YHC
22:10:29 <ais523> how does a lambda look in Haskell? \x -> ?
22:11:20 <Bicyclidine> i think i'm just grumpy because vector calculus notation is really stupid on several levels
22:11:33 <Bicyclidine> btw don't use the word "grumpy" on twitter, i have two different grumpy cats spam-following me
22:11:42 <zzo38> I want to invent a kind of Z-machine terminal codes and then write the interpreter so that it optionally can use them. I wanted to know how to write C program that can connect to other program using its stdin/stdout and interpret them in this way.
22:11:46 <Sgeo> > (\(id -> x) -> x) 4
22:11:52 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: btw the pointwise Num thing can be extended to (Num a, Applicative f) => Num (f a) hth
22:12:10 <Bicyclidine> i'm so glad we have a strongly typed language to do all our duck typing in
22:12:20 <Sgeo> ais523: view patterns
22:12:21 <ais523> you can have strong duck types
22:12:26 <ais523> Sgeo: that doesn't help
22:12:50 <Sgeo> (id -> x) is a pattern that runs id thingtomatch and then matches that against x
22:12:55 <Sgeo> So, equivalent to x
22:12:56 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: lambdabot _used_ to have the Num b => Num (a -> b) instance, but it was removed, i think they must have considered it too confusing
22:13:14 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a1 -> t))
22:13:14 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_1123’
22:13:14 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a2 -> t),
22:13:58 <Bicyclidine> exterior product would be good too let's get this algebra motherfuckery goin
22:14:10 <shachaf> @let import Data.NumInstances
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22:14:52 <Sgeo> Are these @let imports channel scoped?
22:14:57 <Sgeo> Or user scoped?
22:15:04 <Sgeo> Just hoping that it's not bot scoped
22:15:37 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: for an inner product of (a -> b) you need your a to be a finite type, like a Bounded Enum.
22:15:42 <drdanmaku> does anyone know q? or k, i guess?
22:15:51 <drdanmaku> this just hit hacker news: http://www.kparc.com/$/edit.k
22:16:12 <drdanmaku> apparently that file implements a "text editor", for some definition of text editor
22:17:13 <Bicyclidine> drdanmaku: apl is notoriously terse http://catpad.net/michael/apl/
22:17:28 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: well a is just your list of coordinate indices, really
22:17:29 <Bicyclidine> k is one of a few languages based on it but not using the weird fuckin character set
22:17:31 <drdanmaku> yes, i've seen it before, but i was wondering if anyone here actually knew it
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22:17:43 <Bicyclidine> i know a tiny bit. i have a copy of the book somewhere
22:18:04 <Sgeo> Bot changed name and prefix
22:18:18 <Sgeo> [ 1 2 3 + 4 5 6
22:18:31 <Sgeo> Bicyclidine: I just saw it in use today I think
22:18:41 <Bicyclidine> i think if apl used prefix or postfix notation i'd have a chance of understanding it
22:18:44 <drdanmaku> someone did bring up the point that bugs have been reliably correlated with LOC
22:18:55 <drdanmaku> but edit.k seems...i don't know if i want to go that far *-*
22:19:15 <boily> APL is kind of like somewhat prefix.
22:19:26 <Bicyclidine> yeah and that's more confusing than actually prefix, you know?
22:19:30 <Sgeo> shachaf: it's bot scoped.
22:19:47 <Bicyclidine> i had a prof once who found apl really inspiring
22:19:59 <Bicyclidine> he does automata fpgas and wrote sort in vax microcode
22:20:00 <boily> Bicyclidine: unless properly documented and commented and explained, APL is impossible to read.
22:20:21 <boily> automata fpga? I fail to grasp the link between the two concepts.
22:20:53 <Bicyclidine> uh, some kind of general purpose processor based on spatially coordinated automata... i hvaen't looked at it in a while.
22:21:23 <boily> nope, not helping hth
22:21:27 <quintopia> boily: one of these days we'll figure out a way to be online at the same time for more than a handful of minutes, eh?
22:21:54 <drdanmaku> so the k people are implementing a "kOS" with graphics and input and stuff, that is a little exciting if only for the weird factor
22:22:02 <boily> quintopia: indeed. we ought to synchronize our ircing. also, did you just canadian-eh me?
22:22:29 <quintopia> it's not canadian anymore! anyone can do it now!
22:23:01 <quintopia> well, i cannot get online during the hours you can, so i think it is not possible
22:23:45 <boily> I could be having had up stayed late, but the last few weeks were a little bit overworking.
22:23:52 <Bicyclidine> ...actually he was only there for five months, random
22:24:21 <boily> quintopia: we could. like this weekend there's nothing special, so about 9am~9pm.
22:24:38 <oerjan> we in trondheim don't want none of your imperialist canadianism, sjø
22:24:48 <Bicyclidine> http://www.cellmatrix.com/entryway/entryway/core.html there we go
22:24:53 <quintopia> boily: i will probably find a period of time between those hours tomorrow
22:25:06 <boily> oerjan: sjø? is that like «tsé»?
22:25:38 <FireFly> APL ought to be simple-ish to read since it only has two (IIRC) levels of precedence
22:25:47 <oerjan> it's supposedly a contraction of "ser du ~ you see", i think
22:25:54 <boily> quintopia: otherwise, I'm there Mon-Fri 6am~7am and 7pm~9pm, Sat-Sun Random~Random.
22:26:15 <boily> oerjan: tsé → tu sais → you know → y'know.
22:26:30 <nys> mao tstung
22:26:42 <boily> si seulement c'était aussi simple...
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22:27:50 <oerjan> boily: ok so essentially similar
22:28:44 <boily> oerjan: that one really is spelled like that. (or with an hyphen?)
22:30:08 <boily> oh. “Tsetse include all the species in the genus Glossina, which are generally placed in their own family, Glossinidae.”
22:30:14 * boily looks at Bicyclidine
22:30:17 <quintopia> boily: i'm asleep 6am-7am mon-fri, and at work mon-thurs 7pm-9pm. 7pm-9pm friday would be possible if i had no social life :P
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22:31:00 <elliott> drdanmaku: I know some things about K
22:31:03 <elliott> drdanmaku: I know J better
22:31:08 <boily> ah, social life... even Taneb yielded to having a social life.
22:31:20 <elliott> sadly the HN comments on that story are the predictable boring complaints about unreadability when I saw it
22:31:43 <drdanmaku> elliott: yeah, the HN thread is useless, but i'm still interested in K
22:32:05 <drdanmaku> i did find https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/
22:32:23 <quintopia> boily: if you could just get on from work :P
22:32:24 <drdanmaku> elliott: that article seemed to claim the k interpreter "outperformed" c, do you know how that could be the case?
22:32:27 <elliott> drdanmaku: yes. it is difficult to play with K because everything is buried under things costing trillions of dollars or whatever.
22:32:36 * FireFly remembers a quote about K and its implementation fitting into a screenful of C (at one point)
22:33:13 <drdanmaku> also it doesn't help that the C implementation of Kona is written in the style of K
22:33:18 <drdanmaku> e.g. https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/blob/master/src/0.c
22:33:23 <elliott> drdanmaku: because the K code and the C code would do different things, basically... you could write the equivalent C just as well but language implementations can optimise things like tight inner loops of operations and make efficient patterns idiomatic and natural for certain use-cases
22:33:34 <Bicyclidine> http://archive.vector.org.uk/art10501320 mentions the C thing
22:33:35 <drdanmaku> i don't know how i'm going to learn anything about this language if even the impl is unreadable :<
22:33:44 <elliott> drdanmaku: actually that code looks nothing like the true K style, imo
22:34:05 <elliott> drdanmaku: http://www.nsl.com/papers/origins.htm
22:34:33 <elliott> http://www.nsl.com/ is generally a nice resource
22:34:53 <FireFly> That snippet is also on the J page: http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/Incunabulum
22:35:39 <elliott> that interpreter fragment isn't actually that hard to read, you just have to spend a little bit of time familiarising yourself with the definitions it's using first
22:36:00 <Bicyclidine> i still have nightmares about chaitin apl lisp, ok
22:36:07 <boily> quintopia: I am also googlehangoutable, which probably is the best way to chat with me on Monday nights.
22:36:27 <boily> (and during the day, but then you'd have to find a way to find my work e-mail address :P)
22:36:54 <boily> (which isn't very hard to find, and or reconstruct.)
22:37:16 <elliott> drdanmaku: anyway, J and K have a lot of similarities (though they are by no means identical), J isn't open source but it is freely available unlike the K stuff, http://jsoftware.com/, and it has a pretty nice graphical environment with a lot of interactive-ish tutorials and good documentation
22:38:13 <drdanmaku> what's the main difference between them? i'm probably going to stick with K/Kona because it's open source
22:38:17 <FireFly> J is open-source actually, since 2012 IIRC
22:38:28 <FireFly> The source-code is GPL-licensed nowadays
22:38:43 <FireFly> http://www.jsoftware.com/source.htm
22:39:05 <elliott> drdanmaku: I wonder if Kona actually implements, e.g. the GUI stuff that many K programs use.
22:39:16 <elliott> it may not be the best thing to learn K with
22:39:46 <drdanmaku> a language environment aimed at financiers is going to be hard to play with for the reasons you mentioned above, though
22:40:01 <elliott> J/K don't really have that much of a language/implementation divide, so unofficial interpreters might not really be what you want
22:40:05 <drdanmaku> that's unfortunate, it looked interesting
22:40:14 <elliott> drdanmaku: yeah :) you can find a copy of an older version, K3, if you poke around enough
22:40:20 <elliott> J is a lot more accessible
22:40:44 <FireFly> There's also #jsoftware for J and other APL-family languages, by the way
22:50:57 <Taneb> How much discussion of APL itself is there on #jsoftware?
22:57:02 <oerjan> they have to find a font that supports the discussion first.
23:12:25 <FireFly> One of the people there knows only APL at least
23:13:18 <FireFly> Though most of the discussion is about J, when there is any discussion at all
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23:55:59 <Sgeo> Is it really too much to want both a well-curated app store and the option to go outside it?
23:58:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, I think it is a good idea, at least.
23:58:54 <Sgeo> Apple fights against option to go outside it, Android marketplace is not really well maintained
00:00:54 <b_jonas> Sgeo: what would a well curated app store be like? isn't the basic problem that everyone thinks they can get rich form writing closed source apps that don't exist yet and selling them on appstore, but then a hundred people think the same, and so a hundred people write bad closed source apps individually and none get rich?
00:01:28 <b_jonas> or are all the malware apps the problem?
00:01:58 <Sgeo> malware + low quality apps (+ bad permission system)
00:02:40 <Sgeo> Of course, if Apple had its way, and the web was brand new, they would not allow web browsers, iiuc
00:03:11 <zzo38> The official app store should be screened better so that you can check for malware and stuff. However, you should always be allowed to put your own programs without using app store at all, and I believe it more important to have the way to put files independently than to have an app store, although it is good idea to have both
00:03:48 <drdanmaku> seriously though, ms has an app store now, don't they?
00:04:18 <drdanmaku> but you can certainly go outside it, so the only thing left now is for people to write apps...
00:04:21 <Sgeo> drdanmaku: my understanding is that that's only for 'Metro' apps, which seems like a bit of a shame, considering Windows isn't used just for Metro
00:04:32 <Sgeo> I could be wrong
00:05:04 <b_jonas> drdanmaku: no idea, I think nobody buys windows programs, everyone uses cracked ones with malware instead, so nobody knows about the store or if it exists
00:05:09 <drdanmaku> they seem to have distanced themselves from the Metro stuff in Windows 10, so maybe that'll change
00:05:33 <b_jonas> haven't they just renamed it?
00:05:34 <drdanmaku> b_jonas: yeah, that sounds about right
00:06:17 <drdanmaku> b_jonas: well, they brought the normal desktop with the start menu back is what i mean. the apps are in normal windows instead of giant if you have a keyboard
00:06:47 <drdanmaku> i don't actually know the specifics of how "metro" worked since i didn't use windows 8 at all
00:07:20 <b_jonas> drdanmaku: uh, but that's just the UI part. aren't metro style apps also about a saner permission system that doesn't allow all the kludges to support old programs that write their data directly to a hardcoded "C:\foo", to encourage better programming style?
00:08:30 <Sgeo> If that was the primary end-user noticable thing about Metro, rather than the UI, I would gladly use Metro apps
00:09:08 <b_jonas> Sgeo: as an end user, sure, but developers might not want to write them
00:09:19 <b_jonas> and they especially might not want to port all their existing programs to it
00:09:30 <drdanmaku> Sgeo: maybe the problem with the app stores is that, if you're a big company putting lots of effort in to maintaining a store, why would you want to let people just go around it?
00:10:28 <Sgeo> Because you could still look 'user-friendly' to people by maintaining it. I guess though a lot of developers might not bother putting their apps in if they can just tell users 'go around it'
00:10:38 <Sgeo> If there's a difficult approval process
00:11:05 <drdanmaku> yeah, hard to approve + workaround doesn't seem like a stable setup
00:12:54 <b_jonas> is it possible at all to make the app store more user friendly than the web in general if the content is 100 different 50 cent apps for letting you switch the built-in led of your phone as a flashlight while showing ads on the screen and uploading all your personal data?
00:13:53 <Sgeo> That sounds like the Android app store, I don't know if the iOS app store is similar at all
00:14:04 <b_jonas> and I guess there's also 100 apps that don't even bother to let you switch the led, they only put the flashlight thing in the name and icon and description so you download them.
00:14:20 <b_jonas> Sgeo: it's got to be. the motivation of the developers is the same
00:14:41 <b_jonas> Sgeo: well, maybe there's somewhat fewer apps on the ios store because more people try to develop for android?
00:15:40 <b_jonas> I don't know how smartphones work these days
00:16:20 <FireFly> I imagine it could depend a lot on how much the company policies and restricts what apps are allowed on the app store
00:16:37 <b_jonas> sure, but they can't always make the developers keep those policies
00:16:46 <b_jonas> surely they don't allow malware either
00:17:11 <Sgeo> iOS has a review process, to my understanding
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01:27:30 <elliott> b_jonas: the android app store is much more open than the ios one
01:27:58 <elliott> apple exercise a lot of quality control (ymmv though -- there's still a ton of shitty flashlight apps but I don't think there's quite so much crap and outright lies compared to android)
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01:35:03 <Sgeo> iOS has a settings app rather than having the various apps put settings in undiscoverable menus, right?
01:35:23 <Sgeo> Although I think Google's trying to get rid of menus, but ... Samsung still likes them I think :/
01:41:54 <Sgeo> I guess Settings is akin to Windows Control Panel, hmm
01:49:12 <oerjan> this euclidean norm thing isn't making my haskell look any good
01:49:34 <oerjan> probably why no one else has tried.
01:50:06 <oerjan> it's trivial in haskell _except_ for getting the output format exactly right.
01:50:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: then post a variant with saner output format
01:50:28 <oerjan> (i note fizzie complained about that in other places)
01:51:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: well i'm not sure there's _any_ format that wouldn't be awkward for some language.
01:51:54 <oerjan> even using a fixed number of decimals would only cut some of the cruft.
01:52:18 <Sgeo> "Reconsider visual indicators of physicality and realism. Bezels, gradients, and drop shadows sometimes lead to heavier UI elements that can overpower or compete with the content. Instead, focus on the content and let the UI play a supporting role."
01:52:24 <Sgeo> Isn't this a recent change of heart by Apple?
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02:07:38 <quintopia> Sgeo: also, android has settings app like that
02:07:54 <Sgeo> quintopia: Google's against them, and I kind of have to agree that if you don't have a menu indicator, having to guess whether or not there are menus is a bad thing
02:08:13 <Sgeo> quintopia: for its own settings, or can third-party apps extend it?
02:15:49 <elliott> it's not so much a change of heart so much as people getting usurped
02:16:20 <elliott> aiui, jobs and forstall loved skeumorphism; ive hates it
02:18:12 <pikhq> Jobs does seem to have always adored skeumorphism.
02:20:06 <elliott> I don't like how obsessed with flat/borderless mush Ive seems to be from a usability perspective, but I am glad iCal no longer looks like http://cdn.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/ical-big.png.
02:23:02 <Sgeo> I guess there's no chance of iOS and OSX supporting custom theming?
02:23:55 <Sgeo> Also, I remember years ago seeing someone on iOS use an app, and some kind of number selector that looked like a wheel. Is that UI element still similar?
02:24:05 <Sgeo> Like, one of those toy encryption thingies
02:25:29 <Sgeo> http://timroadley.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/RolePicker.jpg
02:25:33 <Sgeo> Looks very skeumorphic
02:26:40 <elliott> iOS 7 was when Forstall got ousted and Ive got to put his grubby^Wspotless, pristinely crafted hands all over things.
02:28:11 <Sgeo> What does that control look like in iOS 7?
02:30:04 <Sgeo> Apparently, the answer is 'boring'
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02:33:46 <zzo38> I tried compressing Zork I by using gzip and the result isn't very good. Do you know what can be better way?
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02:34:54 <Sgeo> Invent algorithm intended to compress games in that format?
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02:53:24 <quintopia> solution: Microsoft Bob (also solution to everything)
02:55:48 <zzo38> I know that DEFLATE expects 8-bit data, and Z-machine packed text contains 5-bit characters, so maybe this has something to do with it? However, the compression software cannot always guess correctly whether it is text or other data, and has to work regardless of such thing.
02:56:30 <zzo38> (It is also not always predictable the alignment of the data)
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03:00:59 <zzo38> I also try to think of, how I can use shift-reduce parsing in text-adventure game.
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03:19:50 <zzo38> Do you know much about shift-reduce parser?
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03:44:14 <Sgeo> Macbuntu does't seem to be booting
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04:08:18 <Sgeo> Why doesn't Ubuntu think my VirtualBox VM is x64?
04:08:35 <elliott> probably it isn't or you booted a 32-bit operating system
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04:09:09 <Sgeo> You mean as host? Because guest failed due to seeing i686 instead of x86-64 it was expecting
04:10:26 <Sgeo> Remaking VM and selecting Ubuntu (64-bit) seems to work
04:11:00 <elliott> probably the vm was 32-bit.
04:11:24 <Sgeo> I don't see a setting in the VM settings for that though
04:12:00 <elliott> I believe it is in the processor tab
04:12:11 <elliott> unless it has to be set at vm creation time
04:14:49 <Sgeo> Ubuntu seems to be a bit Mac like with the menu and the launcher... exept launcher icons are too big and it's on the left, pretty sure latter can be changed at least. What was ais saying the difference between Mac doc and the other thing was?
04:16:57 <Sgeo> Is installing Guest Additions in a LiveCD VM likely to confuse VirtualBox when the VM is shut down and guest additions aren't present anymore?
04:18:41 <Sgeo> Oh, VirtualBox Guest Additions need a restart, don't they :/
04:19:37 <elliott> you can't move it from the left unless they compromised on that
04:19:39 <elliott> also you can move the dock to the left.
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04:20:18 <Sgeo> I think he was talking about something relating to folders though
04:21:59 <Sgeo> Doesn't pretty much /every other Linux distro/ come with virtual machine stuff in the kernel already?
04:22:04 <Sgeo> Or... something?
04:22:16 <Sgeo> At least, most of them have no problem quickly going fullscreen, which is all I really want
04:32:07 * Sgeo starts reading Thinking Forth
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07:30:49 <Sgeo> I should learn LLVM
07:33:42 <Sgeo> http://safecode.cs.illinois.edu/ why isn't this used for all C and C++ code?
08:03:33 <fizzie> Re skeuomorphism, http://interfacehallofshame.eu/www.iarchitect.com/realcd.htm and most of the other in-depth reviews on the same site.
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08:11:40 <fizzie> Probably http://interfacehallofshame.eu/www.iarchitect.com/phone.htm even more so.
08:13:07 <HackEgo> slist 10/19: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
08:13:28 <Sgeo> `cat bin/slist
08:13:29 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ Taneb \ atriq \ Ngevd \ Fiora \ Sgeo \ ThatOtherPerson \ alot
08:13:38 <Sgeo> WHat was that thing about it deleting itself?
08:14:26 <fizzie> I think oerjan removed that feature.
08:14:35 <fizzie> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/8470be3ffda0
08:15:15 <shachaf> Oh, it's all written out but it's updating a bit at a time?
08:16:07 <shachaf> That's a fancy bash variable thing.
08:17:10 <Sgeo> shachaf: not all written out, apparently
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10:42:52 <int-e> @tell oerjan Oops, your hello hello world solution is much closer to my "local optimum" than I expected; apparently I had to rewrite the program in order to realize that the shared "world" string could be picked up from the final result list (having only one list helped). I had only tried a:b=["world","hello",a++"!"], resulting in 86 characters. Funny.
10:48:30 <Sgeo> There may be an advantage to run-time metaprogramming compared to eariler-than-runtime-metaprogramming... it may be easier for other languages to call into that language without inadvertantly being forced not to use your metaprogramming constructs
10:48:59 <Sgeo> Thinking of Factor's bindings into Python, where it can call things like getattr and setattr
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13:13:31 <elliott> "We like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable" I wish prominent systemd criticism didn't almost always leave the distinct impression that the author has never actually seen or used sysvinit.
13:17:27 <boily> quintopia: SYN SYN ENQ?
13:19:01 <boily> I firmly believe systemd is a huge step in the right direction.
13:19:38 <elliott> whether or not systemd is the answer, sysvinit certainly isn't
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14:38:15 <int-e> "we see systemd being very prone to mission creep and bloat" is closer to my personal worries
14:41:17 <int-e> (there's a bit too much policy baked into systemd already; a while ago I was looking for a hook for the action taken on closing the lid of a laptop, and there doesn't appear to be one, just a few options for tweaking the builtin policy of whether to suspend or not)
14:50:26 <int-e> In any case, systemd is a better approximation of what I want than sysvinit. (Every serious distribution had its own infrastructure of init helper scripts for managing dependencies, and that functionality is better off in init itself. To me that would seem to be a good place to stop, but the systemd folks have bigger plans.)
14:51:19 <elliott> yes. I think there is space for reasonable systemd criticism
14:52:24 <elliott> unfortunately, all the /prominent/ criticism seems to amount to pure conservatism / very vague philosophical objections / accusing everyone in sight of corruption / outright personal nastiness
14:53:08 <elliott> but what do you expect from someone threatening to create a fork named "Pure Debian by Veteran Unix Admins"
14:54:20 <boily> there is such a thing as PDVUA? bletch.
15:24:52 <int-e> hmm. http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/stateless.html
15:25:43 <int-e> so init modifies /etc/passwd /etc/shadow and /etc/groups, how quaint.
15:26:33 <int-e> [where init=systemd]
15:29:36 <elliott> tbf, "some component systemd does X" is very far away from "pid 1 does X"
15:30:56 <int-e> So has anybody forked systemd yet?
15:31:24 <int-e> I really dislike how it is used as a vehicle for pushing visions like this one, http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
15:32:00 <elliott> yes, but not the kind of people you'd want to associate with :p
15:32:19 <elliott> by which I mean: yes, 4chan has, the worse parts of 4chan even
15:36:29 <MDude> /a/ wrote a systemd fork?
15:36:38 <KingOfKarlsruhe> int-e: a useless fork of systemd http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
15:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "Debian leaders can go on evaluating more init systems, just not impose one that ignores the needs of most of its users."
15:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think these guys actually know anything about the debian userbase
15:47:48 <int-e> KingOfKarlsruhe: interesting, thanks
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16:11:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40628&oldid=40259 * Rdebath * (+854) Rambling about I/O
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16:38:42 <quintopia> it annoys em when people use "called as" to mean "called". "called as" should be reserved for describing API calls
16:51:04 * MDude called as his mom's cell phone.
16:51:49 <int-e> MDude: that's a serious identity crisis you're having there
16:53:15 <quintopia> wish there was an easier way to reach that guy
16:54:49 <quintopia> but here's one i saw: "Electrodes used in neuroscience are called as multielectrode array..."
16:56:16 <int-e> so what's the author's native language?
16:57:10 <Bike> yeah, that's just ungrammatical
16:58:22 <Bike> also kind of nonsensical, sometimes you do use an electrode by itself
17:11:42 <int-e> or call an electrode as itself
17:14:25 <MDude> So that's what you mean by pointers?
17:14:57 <int-e> why are we discussing dogs now?
17:16:06 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_%28dog_breed%29
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17:29:53 <Taneb> I'm going on a quest to get decent food on a Sunday evening
17:33:33 <Taneb> Or I could make pasta!
17:34:02 <MDude> Good luck making pasta
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18:16:16 <mroman> fizzie: there's selectwords :)
18:17:17 <AndoDaan_> mroman: you're gonna have to teach me how to use GO and GZ later... (if you feel like it)
18:18:07 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
18:18:54 <mroman> If you want to map over a range from zero or one you can use GO/GZ
18:19:04 <mroman> for example all squares from 0..9
18:19:15 <blsqbot> {0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81}
18:19:20 <mroman> which is the same thing as
18:20:14 <mroman> also B! automatically maps over lists
18:20:20 <blsqbot> {"0" "1" "2" "10" "11" "12" "20" "21" "22" "100" "101" "102" "110" "111" "112" "
18:20:27 <AndoDaan_> I see some of your best answer use it.
18:20:29 <mroman> so you don't need m[ for that.
18:21:15 <mroman> but like ?i for example, it auto-detects lists
18:21:18 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 9):
18:21:26 <AndoDaan_> ah this would work for hello hello world
18:21:43 <mroman> 99rz{3B!}m[ is the same thing as 99rz3B!
18:21:46 <AndoDaan_> i haven't looked at those post mortems yet.
18:22:46 <mroman> the language ref mentions deepzip2 for ConvertBase (B!)
18:23:12 <AndoDaan_> yeah, i never got into deepzip... can you give me the cliff notes?
18:23:27 <AndoDaan_> i'm sure i've used it, but maybe with not much understanding.
18:23:31 <mroman> if the lref mentions either deepmap, deepzip or deepzip2 it means that the command auto-detects lists and acts accordingly
18:24:03 <mroman> AndoDaan_: deepmap means, that a Command that takes no arguments will map itself over a list if it's given a list
18:24:12 <mroman> *a command that takes one arguments
18:24:40 <blsqbot> {0.5403023058681398 -0.4161468365471424 -0.9899924966004454}
18:24:45 <blsqbot> {0.5403023058681398 -0.4161468365471424 -0.9899924966004454}
18:25:02 <mroman> ^- Tc detects that you provided a list instead of a Number and will automatically call map (m[) for you
18:25:11 <mroman> this behaviour is called deepmap
18:25:59 <mroman> !blsq {10 11 12}{3 4 5}.%
18:26:22 <mroman> .% has deepzip behaviour. That means it detects if you provide two lists and will call zipWith for you
18:26:28 <mroman> !blsq {10 11 12}{3 4 5}{.%}Z]
18:26:43 <mroman> ^- .% automatically calls Z] for you
18:27:07 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{5 6}||
18:27:25 <mroman> Or (||) has deepzip2 behaviour
18:27:44 <mroman> deepzip2 behaviour means, that the command will detect if you provided it a list and will boxcycle the non-list argument
18:28:04 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}5bxcy{||}Z]
18:28:19 <mroman> || does the bxcy{}Z] automatically
18:28:43 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}3bxcy{B!}Z]
18:29:38 <mroman> {}m[ is deepmap, {}Z] is deepzip and bxcy{}Z[ is deepzip
18:30:30 <mroman> on the other hand: You just need to know that if there's a deep* mentioned for a command, that command will work magically with lists too :)
18:30:58 <mroman> ps for example mentiones deepmap
18:31:26 <mroman> will magically work :)
18:31:55 <mroman> !blsq {" 5 5.+" "6"}{ps}m[p^
18:32:03 <mroman> !blsq {"5 5.+" "6"}{ps}m[p^
18:32:16 <mroman> this can be shortenend too
18:32:52 <mroman> AndoDaan_: The terminology is
18:33:03 <mroman> applying a function to every element to a list is called a "map"
18:33:30 <mroman> taking elements from two listts and apply a function to them is called "zipwith"
18:33:44 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3}{4 5 6}{.+}Z]
18:33:51 <AndoDaan_> I really should know that, but it never solidifies in my brain. maybe this time.
18:34:02 <mroman> ^- that's a zip. It's {(1 + 4) (2 + 5) (3 + 5)}
18:34:37 <mroman> If you have a list and one non-list
18:34:46 <mroman> you can't use zipWith because 5 isn't a list
18:34:57 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}5{.+}Z]
18:34:57 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
18:35:10 <mroman> but you can convert the 5 into an inifinet list of 5s
18:35:18 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}5bxcy{.+}Z]
18:35:41 <mroman> ?+ does this automatically for you
18:36:03 <mroman> zipWith is actually zip + map
18:36:09 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3}{4 5 6}z[
18:36:17 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3}{4 5 6}z[{p^.+}m[
18:36:27 <mroman> ^- that's what zipWithPush does
18:36:43 <mroman> zipWith is zip followed by a map
18:37:04 <lambdabot> zipWith f (a:as) (b:bs) = f a b : zipWith f as bs
18:37:42 <mroman> anyway, the lref says Z[ "Defined as z[\/m["
18:38:04 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3}{4 5 6}z[U[
18:38:32 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3}{4 5 6}z[u[
18:38:45 <mroman> that just reverse what a zip does
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18:39:22 <mroman> I hope I made some things clear :)
18:39:47 <AndoDaan_> a lot clearer. i'm sure i'll have some questions later.
18:40:54 <mroman> my solution is based no si for hello hello world
18:41:07 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{0 0 1 1 2 2}si
18:41:23 <mroman> si takes a list and a list of indices
18:41:37 <mroman> and it will pick the elements out from the first list
18:42:10 <mroman> sw is selectwords which is si but it works on words
18:42:22 <mroman> !blsq "hi there you cat"{0 2 1 3}sw
18:45:22 <AndoDaan_> got to go. i'll bbl. thanks again.
18:50:07 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:56:33 <mroman> this is actually very impressing
18:56:45 <mroman> that's 12 charecters per second.
18:59:11 -!- not^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:23:51 <mroman> `cat dontaskdonttelllist
19:23:52 <HackEgo> cat: dontaskdonttelllist: No such file or directory
19:24:06 <mroman> `cat donttelldonktasklist
19:24:06 <HackEgo> cat: donttelldonktasklist: No such file or directory
19:24:12 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:24:18 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bf \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ CoInS \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquo
19:24:25 <mroman> `run ls bin/ | grep ask
19:24:42 <mroman> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
19:24:42 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./&/g' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro \ myname \ mroman(use query)
19:25:12 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname mroman(use query)
19:25:55 <mroman> @ask ais532 can you do a "programming languages with no Hello world" list?
19:26:20 <mroman> @ask ais523 can you do a "programming languages with no Hello world" list?
19:31:13 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
19:39:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:57:58 <Sgeo> My new motto is 'minimize different'
19:59:21 <Vorpal> It turns out vlc does not work over ssh X forwarding. Shouldn't have been surprising really
20:00:10 <pikhq> Might work better via xpra.
20:00:42 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:02:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, interesting, without -X to ssh I get ASCII art
20:02:13 <Vorpal> Also pulse is fucking up badly on this laptop
20:02:20 <pikhq> xpra is a fairly spiffy X forwarding thing. Basically it runs your app in Xvfb and acts as a compositing window manager to get the rendering of it. And then it encodes to h.264 before streaming over the network.
20:02:23 <Vorpal> How do I disable pulse on Ubuntu...
20:02:32 <Vorpal> I'll get jack or something instead...
20:02:48 <pikhq> So basically it replaces X remoting with a much better protocol.
20:02:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, so the quality will not be as good
20:03:20 <pikhq> Yes, but what do you *want* from a generic network display rendering schema?
20:03:37 <pikhq> Low-latency video encoding is pretty much the only viable solution.
20:03:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is why X forwarding is nicer
20:03:49 <Vorpal> vlc could just forward the video data as is
20:03:55 <Vorpal> without re-encoding it
20:04:19 <pikhq> X forwarding *would be* nicer if a) Xlib didn't suck as bad b) users of X used its primitive operations instead of basically using it as a stupidly inefficient framebuffer renderer.
20:04:54 <pikhq> Note that using X forwarding for a video display program would be shoving the *decoded* video over the network.
20:05:07 <Vorpal> Now how to solve: [0x7f8790000b78] main input error: ES_OUT_SET_(GROUP_)PCR is called too late (pts_delay increased to 300 ms)
20:05:07 <Vorpal> [0x7f8790000b78] main input error: ES_OUT_RESET_PCR called
20:05:09 <pikhq> Which, unless you're on quite an awesome link, Isn't Going To Work.
20:05:18 <Vorpal> Which happens with locally playing the files
20:05:58 <pikhq> Is it a 10 gigabit lan?
20:06:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, Nope, it is 1 gbit ethernet
20:06:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, however, what I'm saying, since I'm playing a mp4 anyway, it can just forward that compressed data
20:06:54 <Vorpal> And let it be decoded by the local GPU on the target system
20:07:02 <pikhq> X doesn't work that way.
20:07:10 <Vorpal> Since if played locally vlc it would be decoded using the GPU
20:07:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, no but it should
20:07:36 -!- nisstyre has quit (Changing host).
20:07:36 -!- nisstyre has joined.
20:08:53 <pikhq> In *theory* you can just barely do 1080p30 on that link, but you will literally be using all the capacity.
20:09:11 <pikhq> And that's assuming that you're doing nothing more than shoving the raw video on Ethernet frames...
20:09:16 <pikhq> Which you're not. :)
20:09:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, well the video is 480p
20:09:38 <Vorpal> But now I scped it to local
20:10:03 <pikhq> Oh, then if you're *not scaling* then it'll maybe hypothetically work over X on that LAN.
20:10:40 <fizzie> I've used mplayer -vo x11 over SSH-forwarded X.
20:10:46 <fizzie> More of a slideshow than a video feed, though.
20:11:09 <elliott> pikhq: xpra supports multiple encodings, not just h.264
20:11:27 <pikhq> Oh, right. It can stream PNG over the network too, can't it?
20:11:49 <pikhq> I think h.264 is the default though.
20:11:50 <elliott> plus simpler RLE type stuff
20:11:58 <elliott> it can even do vp8 if you want to for some reason
20:11:59 <Vorpal> You know what, sshfs is easier at this point
20:12:00 <pikhq> Works quite well for me.
20:12:21 <pikhq> Riiight, yeah! I remember having it built wrong and it didn't have h.264 but did have vp8 at one point.
20:12:33 <pikhq> VP8 is *not* a low latency codec. :)
20:14:23 <fizzie> About 2fps for "mplayer -vo x11" of a 574p video from the work-workstation to home over two SSH's (can't connect to workstations directly) and a 10M VDSL2 link.
20:14:47 <fizzie> I seem to recall this working better when I was living in the university student apartments, which network-topologically speaking were quite a lot closer.
20:16:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about between devices on your lan?
20:17:19 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have any convenient devices to test with, without booting up the laptop.
20:17:44 <fizzie> The headless boxes don't seem to have mplayer installed.
20:18:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is funny that playing this over sshfs works just fine
20:19:17 <Vorpal> Also, how does one do software mixing with pure alsa now again? PA clearly isn't working out for me
20:19:42 <pikhq> Well yeah. sshfs is a bit hackish, but you've got a lot of things going for you. Like "streaming encoded video instead of decoded".
20:20:04 <fizzie> It's supposed to just work, but I seem to have ended up with an .asoundrc like http://sprunge.us/CMaK for some reason.
20:20:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, I was like "I don't want to have to set up fucking nfs on this laptop, even though that desktop with the files has it"
20:20:33 <pikhq> May NFS be fucked.
20:20:33 <fizzie> I've completely forgotten what *didn't* work that made me fiddle with that.
20:20:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I tried to just set the real sound output in vlc settings, (alsa), didn't work out
20:20:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, nfs is great, much lower overhead than cifs
20:21:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, makes a massive difference when streaming 1080p videos from the RPi
20:21:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, i.e. it works over nfs3, but not cifs. Haven't tried nfs4
20:21:55 <fizzie> One of my scripts had stopped working due to some NFS-related file locking thing; I had kind of assumed they'd ironed out those kinks.
20:22:29 <fizzie> Of course it's some sort of "enterprise" storage system behind it.
20:23:07 <fizzie> (It did an exclusive lock on a file to make sure only one copy of a thing was running at a time, and some change or another made it never able to lock the file.)
20:24:37 <Vorpal> No clue how it works really
20:24:54 <fizzie> Now it just does a pgrep on the command, which is such a hack, but works fine in practice.
20:25:26 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:25:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not a local lock file?
20:26:29 <Vorpal> And yeah, pgrep will have race conditions
20:27:03 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it was in the "home directory" of the tool. It could lock some /tmp file in theory, I guess. I doubt I have any access to anything else local on that system.
20:27:28 <Vorpal> Okay firefox on this laptop is WEIRD. If I log into google, google mail and google search result gets into a instant reload-cycle
20:27:35 <Vorpal> Works fine if I'm not logged in
20:27:40 <fizzie> Hmm, that's curious. There's the same path mounted over NFS3 and NFS4 at two different mount points.
20:27:47 <fizzie> I assume they've been fiddling with the setup.
20:28:04 <fizzie> Probably the reason why it stopped working out of the blue, too.
20:30:08 <Vorpal> Hm what init daemon does Android use?
20:30:45 <fizzie> Something custom, I believe.
20:31:48 <fizzie> But closer to a sysv style "rc scripts" than a full-blown "does everything" thing like systemd.
20:31:55 <Vorpal> I mean, these days it seems that the only option to avoid systemd in the future will be gentoo pretty much, with openrc. Debian is going to switch in next release. So is Ubuntu at some point
20:31:58 <fizzie> There's a "system server" too, though.
20:32:14 <fizzie> Debian is having a debate about it again around this time.
20:32:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it definitely doesn't use PA, but instead something that works
20:32:24 <Vorpal> Oh really? That is good
20:32:55 <Vorpal> Yeah I don't want an init daemon that does more than just handle processes. Having init crash is the worst possible thing that could happen really.
20:33:13 <fizzie> I didn't follow the details, but AIUI someone insisted on a General Resolution, which means all developers could theoretically comment on it.
20:33:23 <Vorpal> Ouch, there are already CVEs for systemd
20:33:23 <elliott> the debate is kind of ridiculous
20:33:38 <elliott> it's like 2-3 weeks before feature freeze and it's explicitly designed to ensure gnome gets removed from jessie
20:33:50 <elliott> it's... basically just spiteful legislative trolling?
20:33:59 <Vorpal> So they are going into feature freeze soon
20:34:27 <fizzie> IIRC, it was a Technical Committee decision the last time. Though I follow Debian politics really poorly.
20:34:40 <elliott> I don't think I've actually heard of systemd-the-pid-1 crashing on anyone.
20:34:45 <elliott> are those CVEs actually for pid 1?
20:35:10 <fizzie> How's Ubuntu doing these days, still Upstart or moving to systemd following Debian or what?
20:35:17 <Vorpal> Hm that is a good question, my firefox just crashed (good thing that isn't integrated into upstart which this laptop uses!)
20:35:23 <elliott> fizzie: planning to move to systemd
20:35:39 <fizzie> I'm typing this on a systemd Debian server, FWIW.
20:35:58 <Vorpal> I wonder, could one use daemontools for pid 1?
20:36:07 <elliott> really I would not write systemd and I don't like a lot of its decisions but there honestly is an awful lot of FUD and nastiness surrounding it.
20:36:12 <Vorpal> That seems like the optimal solution after initramfs finished
20:36:14 <elliott> use runit if you want that
20:36:24 <elliott> since that's what it's designed to be
20:36:40 <Vorpal> elliott, KISS daemon supervision basically
20:36:43 <elliott> https://github.com/chneukirchen/ignite
20:37:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not on arch any more, but thanks all the same
20:37:29 <elliott> spoiler, though: probably the only thing you'll personally experience by zealously avoiding systemd is just more fuss for yourself. I'm not saying that's a defence of anything but it is really not a burden to use systemd in practice and you can probably toggle off whatever you don't like about it.
20:37:42 <elliott> Vorpal: just saying there are alternatives that are not gentoo
20:37:59 <Vorpal> Well that is good at least
20:38:19 <Vorpal> Last I looked at systemd it didn't support remote syslog (since it swallows syslog)
20:38:21 <elliott> alpine linux uses musl/busybox/openrc
20:38:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt that. it has always been able to forward syslog right on to an actual syslog daemon.
20:38:44 <elliott> like, if you were running rsyslogd before, you could always tell systemd to just forward it on to that.
20:39:00 <Vorpal> Right okay, so to local rsyslogd, then to remote rsyslogd
20:39:24 <Vorpal> Alpine uses musl, which is a problem for me, since I use some binary programs where I don't have the source, and that use glibc
20:39:31 <Vorpal> Intel Compiler for example
20:39:45 <Vorpal> Also last I looked musl had some locale issues iirc
20:40:23 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20141019-boot.svg so much stuff in a system, though
20:41:07 <elliott> Vorpal: you can just install glibc too?
20:41:26 <elliott> if the executables could statically link glibc...
20:41:52 <elliott> well, if it dynamically links to like big huge libraries that you only have built with musl and there's ABI problems then maybe (but musl is ABI-compatible with glibc to some degree)
20:41:58 <elliott> that's kind of an awful way to distribute binaries though :p
20:42:04 <fizzie> The feeling I've gotten from Android is not that the systems are any sort of bastion of cleanliness and good design, when it comes to the Linux parts underneath.
20:42:34 <elliott> yeah, bionic seems to be about half of a libc.
20:43:10 <Vorpal> Yes Android has issues definitely
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20:44:20 <elliott> anyway I think runit type systems are a bit underwhelming, there are some nice things in systemd that I would miss in them; they are certainly way better than sysvinit though
20:44:29 <elliott> clearly run launchd on linux!
20:44:47 <elliott> launchd is probably pretty much to "blame" for systemd anyway since systemd started as basically ripping off launchd for linux without xml
20:44:52 <fizzie> Wonder what "colord.service" is in that boot log. A color profile thing?
20:45:26 <elliott> "Starting infrequently used on-demand socket-based daemons from launchd seems like it could open the main system process to a potential denial of service attack. I have not explored this idea or researched to see if it has already been tried, but I would opt for inetd/xinetd over launchd."
20:45:33 <elliott> okay launchd FUD is... way weirder than systemd FUD
20:47:02 <elliott> fizzie: incidentally, you can add cpressey to the list of UK (former) #esoteric people, apparently
20:47:15 <fizzie> elliott: I don't think I knew that.
20:47:36 <fizzie> elliott: Makes sense, though. Isn't there something very British about Befunge?
20:47:37 <Vorpal> elliott, on demand socket? So it basically xinetd/inetd as well?
20:47:47 <Vorpal> How would it be more prone to DOS than those
20:47:53 <elliott> Vorpal: launchd/systemd both do socket activation of services
20:48:01 <AndoDaan> when did chris pressey stop being active on the esoteric wiki?
20:48:04 <Vorpal> elliott, Same as xinetd/inetd then
20:48:10 <elliott> "what if you DoS pid 1?" has to be the oddest objection I've heard to that
20:48:25 <elliott> "better use inetd instead, everyone knows that's secure and robust"
20:48:50 <fizzie> elliott: Incidentally, despite the cliché, apparently it rains more here than it does in London, at least when looking at total precipitation numbers.
20:48:53 <Vorpal> Well okay, xinetd crashing is less of a problem than pid 1 crashing, I'll admit that.
20:49:36 <elliott> fizzie: you'd be in london, then?
20:49:52 <Vorpal> I wish this laptop had a nicer screen. IPS or something
20:49:52 <fizzie> elliott: Thereabouts, yes, if I take the deal.
20:50:03 <Vorpal> I hate this TN viewing angle nonsense
20:50:16 <elliott> fizzie: I hear germany is totally awful.
20:50:25 <fizzie> I'm probably going to prod the Germans soon, if I don't hear from them.
20:51:25 <fizzie> As far as places-to-live go, it seemed quite nice; it's a lot different from London, though, being a city of about 250k people.
20:51:57 <elliott> yeah, 250k is about the population of the UK.
20:52:32 <fizzie> "It" being the place in Germany that job would be in, not Germany in general.
20:53:08 <elliott> germany has twenty five thousand million people in it.
20:53:33 <Vorpal> Oh god, what a terribly large city
20:53:51 <Bike> what are the error bars on these population counts
20:54:03 <fizzie> Bike: Larger than the absolute value of the measurement.
20:54:09 <fizzie> Could be negative people.
20:54:22 <Bike> so you're saying there might be sixty thousand million people in germany
20:54:24 <Bike> that's pretty intense
20:54:48 <elliott> germany's rate of immigration is very high
20:54:52 <Bike> that's 70k people per km²
20:55:00 <elliott> they have very small apartments.
20:55:14 <Bike> 168k for the sixty thousand million
20:55:34 <Bike> .1681 people per m². doable
20:55:43 <elliott> everyone who moved in in the past few seconds is a partner of someone already living there, they share the apartment
20:55:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no, they have very high buildings, with many subsurface levels as well
20:56:00 <elliott> Vorpal: no, germans have yet to discover architecture
20:56:23 <Bike> they have those AA towers from wwii and other than that they have to live in pelt tents
20:56:46 <elliott> Bike: it's kind of weird to think you sort of could house sixty thousand million people in germany
20:56:51 <elliott> like they'd be really cramped but...
20:56:59 <elliott> that figure is kinda workable
20:57:05 <elliott> if you really, really wanted to
20:57:06 <Bike> like, in an arcology, maybe.
20:57:18 <fizzie> That's, what, six square metres per person?
20:57:19 <elliott> who said anything about archaeology?
20:57:31 <elliott> fizzie: well, ".1681 people per m²".
20:57:59 <fizzie> Sounds like one sixth of a person, yes.
20:58:13 <elliott> pretty sure there are apartments in NYC smaller than that
20:58:18 <Bike> 5.9488 m² per person
20:58:38 <Bike> it suddenly seems kind of weird that we use surface area in these measurements
20:58:45 <Bike> given that i'm sitting in the fifth floor of a building atm
20:58:50 <elliott> sink, toilet, put the bed a layer up, got enough space for like, a fridge and a microwave and a chair, maybe
20:59:07 <elliott> if you tried really, really hard
20:59:18 <fizzie> It's hard to say where the ceiling of a country is, if you wanted to use volume instead.
20:59:24 <Vorpal> <Bike> it suddenly seems kind of weird that we use surface area in these measurements <-- as opposed to?
20:59:45 <Bike> i think the main problem is that you need other things too, like, is every one of these 6 m² blocks also a farm and sewage treatment plant
20:59:56 <Vorpal> Bike, I mean what else than m² would you use
20:59:56 <Bike> or both. manure.
21:00:05 <elliott> now there would be a problem that you couldn't fill the space with anything but houses
21:00:13 <elliott> some people could run stores out of their apartments
21:00:19 <elliott> supplies could come in through the roof, dropped off by air
21:00:25 <elliott> you'd keep a map of the Grid
21:00:26 <fizzie> Each of the 6 square-metre plot of land must clearly be an entirely self-sufficient tower, then you have no problems.
21:00:34 <Bike> yeah that makes sense
21:00:41 <elliott> again, yet to discover architecture... keep up :p
21:01:10 <elliott> can't stop imagining this overpopulated german hellscape...
21:01:24 <elliott> phew. you sure don't want to live there, do you, fizzie?
21:01:41 <Bike> did you know that one time HR Giger designed arcologies for Switzerland shaped like satanic pyramids, and sent the design to the swiss chancellor
21:01:46 <Bike> some of his best work imo
21:01:47 <fizzie> What's the canonical population count of Trantor? w
21:01:55 <fizzie> 45 billion, apparently.
21:02:01 <Bike> didn't trantor have underwater oceans and farms
21:02:08 <fizzie> That doesn't actually sound like all that much.
21:02:14 <Bike> well it doesn't /now/
21:02:41 <Bike> elliott: alas, there were some issues with the plan to use felons to man the radioactive waste disposals in the pyramid cores
21:02:43 <fizzie> "Its land surface of 194,000,000 km² (75,000,000 miles², 130% of Earth land area) --" it's even bigger.
21:02:50 <AndoDaan> wasn't trantor like the home of the secrect second foundation peeps?
21:03:10 <Vorpal> What is Trantor from now again?
21:03:13 <Vorpal> I heard the name before
21:03:15 <fizzie> AndoDaan: No, it was the center of the Empire.
21:03:21 <Bike> AndoDaan: that was after the empire collapsed
21:03:30 <Bike> yeah i think they were
21:03:37 <fizzie> AndoDaan: The Foundation was placed in Terminus.
21:03:41 <Bike> anyway if every person on earth got 6 m² we could fit 86 trillion peeps
21:03:44 <Bike> sounds legit tbh
21:03:55 <Bike> stand on zanzibar mother fuckers
21:03:59 <elliott> Bike: we'd have to do something about the oceans...?
21:04:04 <Bike> fuck the oceans
21:04:25 <elliott> I'm ready for this horrifying dystopia of torment
21:04:27 <Bike> only 25.07 trillion if you stick to land like a fucking wuss
21:04:30 <AndoDaan> alpha centauri was an ocean. in the second foundation series.
21:04:39 <Bike> i almost elided that .07 but then i remembered that was over ten times the actual population
21:04:42 <AndoDaan> people there wanted to turn themselves into dolphins.
21:04:52 <Bike> weren't those not by asimov
21:05:05 <AndoDaan> the third series wasn't, but the second was.
21:05:20 <Bike> anyone remember that short story "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" by vonnegut, it fucked me up
21:05:21 <AndoDaan> greg bear, and two other wrote the third.
21:05:30 <Bike> overpopulation is kind of a dogwhistle but whatever
21:05:33 <Vorpal> <Bike> anyway if every person on earth got 6 m² we could fit 86 trillion peeps <-- don't forget it takes more than an apartment to sustain a person. You need to produce food and so on too
21:05:47 <Bike> uh dude scroll up we already decided everyone runs shit farms
21:06:21 <AndoDaan> not bad farms, but literal shit farms? would that work? do we have the technology
21:06:32 <Bike> i decided that, and you're within seven meters of me, so we're pretty much the same
21:06:41 <Bike> AndoDaan: like, using the shit as fertilizer. totally sensible
21:06:53 <elliott> I guess you could do something below the housing units?
21:07:07 <elliott> just poop directly into the endless vast expanse of the underground shit farm
21:07:11 <Bike> let's try this with volume now
21:07:16 <elliott> why am I participating in this
21:07:19 <Bike> how much is 6 m³? i don't even know
21:07:21 <fizzie> elliott: That certainly sounds better than on top.
21:07:41 <elliott> this channel is an underground shit farm
21:07:42 <Bike> 8 m³ is a 2×2×2 block, right
21:07:42 <AndoDaan> the human centipede on a planetwide scale...
21:07:59 <Bike> look have you ever been to a farm irl, they are disgusting, that's just how it works
21:08:02 <fizzie> Two square metres of area in a reasonable-height room is 6 cubic metres.
21:08:17 <Bike> everything you eat is regurgitated fixed nitrogen mother fucker
21:08:57 <Bike> okay, if everyone gets a 6 m³ block we can fit 1.805 × 10²⁰ people in the earth's volume. i ahve solved overpopulation.
21:09:01 <elliott> are we just going to invent the matrix here
21:09:23 <Vorpal> Bike, in the earth volume. Right, good luck with that
21:09:43 <Vorpal> You should count the volume of a shell around earth, up to a reasonable height
21:09:46 <elliott> what the fuck answer was I expecting
21:09:50 <Bike> Vorpal: yes this is clearly the only difficult proposal so far
21:09:55 <elliott> "can we fit more than 2^80 things anywhere in the universe"
21:09:59 <Bike> but i believe we can do it
21:10:38 <Vorpal> elliott, if so, there isn't an x86 extended floating point value for everyone?
21:11:17 <elliott> wait, is it 10^80, not 2^80
21:11:26 <elliott> what's the number for the observable universe again
21:11:28 <Vorpal> Oh okay, yeah that is bigger
21:11:44 <Vorpal> elliott, number of protons?
21:11:56 <fizzie> What the. If I type in "2^80 bytes" in Google, the result is "1.20892582 yottabytes". These are some sort of decimal-based byte counts.
21:12:07 <elliott> number of planck volumes? :p
21:12:12 <coppro> fizzie: that's correct
21:12:15 <elliott> fizzie: yeah, google use those now
21:12:46 <elliott> ubuntu and OS X and maybe windows also use decimal for showing file sizes now
21:12:49 <fizzie> Hmm. It sounds more silly than kibi.
21:12:52 <elliott> somehow SI prefixes are spontaneously winning
21:13:04 <coppro> they're winning because consistency is king
21:13:13 <elliott> coppro: they still overload it for RAM though
21:13:35 <coppro> that's not in the manufacturers' best interest :P
21:13:36 <fizzie> Apparently exabyte -> exbibyte, not ebibyte.
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21:14:04 <elliott> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/4118/how-many-bytes-can-the-observable-universe-store alright
21:14:11 <Vorpal> coppro, it doesn't make sense to not use power of 2 for ram, due to how it is constructed
21:14:43 <elliott> any number bigger than that you can give up on
21:15:12 <elliott> Vorpal: it doesn't make sense to not use powers of 2 for SSDs
21:15:27 <elliott> ...and indeed SSDs are often sold with binary prefixes, I think, sigh
21:15:59 <Vorpal> elliott, There is the issue that some space may be reserved though there
21:16:02 <Vorpal> elliott, and generally is
21:16:17 <Vorpal> Internal data structures, overprovisioning, and more
21:16:24 <elliott> yeah, but I mean you buy a 256 GB SSD, it's actually 256 GiB and also you don't get all of that
21:16:35 <elliott> you buy an 80 GB SSD, maybe it's actually something close to 80 GB, no i, who knows
21:16:55 <fizzie> My SSD reports itself as having 1000215216 sectors of 512 bytes.
21:17:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well, we will see what my 512 GB SSD that I ordered yesterday will be
21:17:28 <elliott> fizzie: but it probably doesn't actually deal with 512-byte sectors :p
21:18:48 <Vorpal> elliott, what fs should I use on an SSD these days?
21:19:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I will install Ubuntu LTS on it (14.04 atm I believe?)
21:19:29 <elliott> tools are mostly okay / getting better
21:19:40 <elliott> actual filesystem shouldn't, like, lose your data I don't think, but you do backups, right?
21:19:53 <elliott> if you're more boring you can just do ext4.
21:19:55 <Vorpal> But it is still annoying when things break
21:20:10 <elliott> or you could use something exciting and obscure like nilfs
21:20:14 <fizzie> People on a neighboring channel have still been having trouble with btrfs, but they're testing the bleeding-edge btrfs code.
21:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard good things about f2fs iirc
21:20:22 <elliott> or maybe go all the way to ZFS?!?!?!
21:20:26 <fizzie> Presumably what ends up in "stable" software is different.
21:20:38 <elliott> f2fs is for, like, SD card type things more I think
21:21:15 <Vorpal> elliott, hm made by samsung, and my SSD is a samsung one
21:21:29 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, use a partitioning tool that will align properly like gdisk but who really cares, blah blah blah, SSDs are boring nowadays
21:21:44 <elliott> yeah but I think f2fs comes out of like, their phones.
21:21:56 <elliott> maybe it's great for SSDs, I don't know.
21:22:05 <Vorpal> phoronix tests I guess
21:22:11 <fizzie> "Partitions will be aligned on 2048-sector boundaries" makes one wonder if that's just "let's use some giant power of two, that's surely enough for everyone".
21:22:11 <elliott> btrfs has SSD-specific knowledge iirc
21:22:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder how this will work with dm-crypt
21:22:32 <fizzie> I remember reading about nilfs several years back in the context of SSDs.
21:22:36 <elliott> you set up luks, put btrfs on it
21:22:44 <elliott> I think the luks stuff will get the alignment right by default nowadays
21:22:52 <elliott> btrfs is getting native encryption support at some point I think?
21:22:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, that makes the data uncompressible, which iirc causes issues with SSDs
21:23:09 <elliott> I only know of SanDisks doing that by default?
21:23:18 <Vorpal> I think the sandforce controllers do it
21:23:24 <elliott> really you don't need kid gloves with SSDs these days.
21:23:31 <elliott> you can just do whatever and it's fine.
21:23:44 <Vorpal> Or should I just use the built in encryption in the SSD? Do I even trust that?
21:24:04 <Vorpal> Probably shouldn't use it at all even
21:27:05 <fizzie> SMART report on my system SSD says "Remaining_Lifetime_Percentage" has a value of 29.
21:27:15 <fizzie> Wonder what that's based on.
21:27:29 <elliott> its internal supply of human blood
21:27:53 <fizzie> It does have 33019 Power_On_Hours, so it's not exactly new.
21:30:19 <fizzie> Max_PE_Count_Spec 10000, Average_Erase_Count 7176; given that 1-7176/10000 is close to 29%, it's probably that.
21:31:32 <fizzie> Rounds the other way, though.
21:33:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, time to consider a new drive soon then
21:33:18 <Vorpal> The drive I'm getting have 10 year warranty
21:33:23 <Vorpal> So that is good at least
21:36:05 <elliott> testing shows SSDs survive a lot longer than they say they'll do, IIRC
21:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, which is even better
21:38:41 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, that just means they haven't figured out how to reliably make it fail after a specific amount of time yet :P
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21:51:20 <fizzie> "Notice: Undefined variable: node in _watcher_node_type_enabled() (line 2840 of /home/joe/staging/beta/sites/all/modules/watcher/watcher.module)" looks very promising
21:51:36 <fizzie> I guess the site's built by some Joe.
21:53:58 <fizzie> I had that regular spinning-disk disk fail two weeks after the three-year warranty period, which shows they've honed those down to science.
22:02:00 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 19m 7s ago: Oops, your hello hello world solution is much closer to my "local optimum" than I expected; apparently I had to rewrite the program in order to realize that the shared "world" string could be picked up from the final result list (having only one list helped). I had only tried a:b=["world","hello",a++"!"], resulting in
22:02:38 <oerjan> @tell int-e i had w:r=["world","hello",w++"!"] in a previous version.
22:02:39 <int-e> oerjan: oh you took on the horrible text formatting problem
22:02:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, which is why I got a hdd with 5 year warranty last time
22:02:58 <int-e> (euclidean distance ;-) )
22:04:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, also an enterprise disk, since that is made for 24/7 operation. And surprisingly it was pretty much the same price as a comparable non-enterprise hdd.
22:04:38 <oerjan> int-e: yep. i surely thought importing something would help, but my current best version has no imports and beats the one using Numeric by 1 char. (Text.Printf _should_ have won except for stupid lack of defaulting to Double.)
22:04:39 <int-e> oerjan: so what was your 85 characters version?
22:04:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:06:10 <AndoDaan> int-e: do you mean the rounding off stuff of Euclidian norm?
22:06:36 <int-e> AndoDaan: rounding, omitting trailing zeros, etc.
22:07:10 <ais523> I have a great esolanging announcement
22:07:16 <ais523> I have solved a problem which has been open since 1996
22:07:20 <AndoDaan> and the funny thing is... i wanted to use something in burlesque that would have helped just that.
22:07:55 <oerjan> by my estimate of your age i take it you didn't create the problem.
22:07:56 <AndoDaan> or i mean, which open problem.
22:08:45 <ais523> (((((#65535$#65535)~((V32((?32((?32(.4$.2)~(#0$#65535))$.1)~(#0$#65535))$(?32((((V32((&32(.4$.2)~(#0$#65535))$.9)~(#0$#65535))$#0)~(#32767$#1))$.2)~(#0$#65535)))~(#0$#65535))$#65535))$.4)~(#0$#65535))$.9) <- '"?.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"'$'"&.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"'
22:08:54 <ais523> how to add two numbers in a single INTERCAL expression
22:09:12 <ais523> err, wait, that's a mix of two different syntaxes
22:09:20 * Bike takes back esoaward
22:09:22 <AndoDaan> it's probably very impressive, bike.
22:09:37 <ais523> I had to write a new interpreter just to be able to run this code
22:09:37 <int-e> right ... () vs. '"
22:09:52 <ais523> INTERCAL numbers are numbers
22:09:56 <ais523> so it's just adding them numerically
22:10:07 <ais523> there isn't an inherent base, although all the operators you can use on them are bitwise
22:10:12 <oerjan> int-e: i seem not to have saved an 85 char version.
22:10:16 <AndoDaan> i've only read up on it a bit.
22:10:18 <ais523> AndoDaan: INTERCAL onespots are like C shorts
22:10:24 <ais523> it's not a functional language
22:10:49 <ais523> DO :2 <- :1/"'"'#65535$#65535'~'"'?"'"'V"'&.4$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$.9'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~'#32767$#1'"$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#65535'"$.4'~'#0$#65535'"$.9
22:10:50 <ais523> DO :1 <- '"?.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"'$'"&.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"'
22:11:01 <MDude> I don't think adding would depend that much on base used?
22:11:03 <ais523> that's it in proper INTERCAL syntax, split out into three lines for clarity and portability
22:11:17 <AndoDaan> of course i'm confusing unlambda with intercal now. sorry.
22:11:20 <oerjan> int-e: it was much more similar to my final one than to your "local optimum", though.
22:12:40 <int-e> oerjan: words"world hello world!" looked so nice, I kept putting it back :)
22:13:58 <AndoDaan> well, ais523, let me say congratulations. I have no idea how hard the feat is, but i have no doubt it would be beyond me in this lifetime.
22:14:24 <int-e> In the end, the statistics pretty much convinced me that henkma's code didn't contain that string and used the [...w++"!"] trick instead.
22:14:25 <Sgeo> People pay hundreds of dollars for a Forth environment?
22:14:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: My current backup disk is nominally a "surveillance storage" disk, because the price was the same, and the warranty slightly longer (3 years vs. 2 years) than the most basic consumer devices, plus it said something about being suitable for an "always-on" operation.
22:14:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: (WD "Pruple" series.)
22:14:55 <ais523> AndoDaan: this all came about because I was trying to write a contract bridge AI
22:14:56 <Bike> people pay hundreds of dollars for bird nests made into food
22:15:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah my desktop disks are WD Se disks
22:15:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, the alternative would have been WD Black
22:15:41 <AndoDaan> ais523: i actually read that article that... eric(i think) wrote, you're one of the foremost experts on intercal, right?
22:15:59 <MDude> Bird nests have a supply limit argument going for them, though.
22:16:02 <ais523> AndoDaan: yes, thus it's not surprising I ended up in this channel
22:16:03 <int-e> oerjan: oh and there's a new problem there, "Belgian Numbers".
22:16:08 <AndoDaan> wait, a bridge ai... in intercal???
22:16:13 <ais523> AndoDaan: no, in Prolog
22:16:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, my backup disks are not on all the time and are thus cheaper and slower external USB3 disks
22:16:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Last I looked it was mostly about the colors (Blue, Green, Black, Red, Purple); I don't know what these Se, Re, Xe, Ae signify.
22:17:22 <AndoDaan> ais523: how could that possibly be related to adding number in that language.
22:17:32 <fizzie> (These desktop disks are now "Seagate Barracuda 7200.14"'s.)
22:17:36 <AndoDaan> sorry if i'm showing my profound ignorance.
22:18:21 <ais523> AndoDaan: well, what's the maximum number of points a bridge hand can be worth, on the normal point counting system? (that's 4 for an ace, 3 for a king, 2 for a queen, 1 for a jack, and 1 for every card beyond the fourth in a suit)
22:18:59 <AndoDaan> it's been a while since i've bridged.
22:19:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, Se, Re and Xe are enterprise disks. Not sure about Ae
22:19:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, and there is also the velicoraptor on the side
22:19:19 <ais523> if you can get the answer in less than about 5 minutes, you're doing better than my bridge AI was
22:20:17 <int-e> oh 4444333322221 = 37
22:20:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ae is apparently for "archive" use.
22:21:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think Xe is SAS only
22:21:10 <AndoDaan> okay, and intercal counts like that, somehow?
22:21:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Moving cold data to value-optimized archive media delivers significant TCO savings by freeing up expensive performance-critical storage system capacity." It's like they've designed their ad copy for buzzword bingo.
22:22:13 <ais523> AndoDaan: no, but trying to evaluate INTERCAL reverse assignments is a similar sort of optimization problem
22:22:36 <ais523> "find a hand that's worth 37 points" is pretty much the same sort of operation as "find a number which, when selected with itself, gives #5"
22:23:12 <int-e> ais523: the former has a solution :)
22:23:30 <oerjan> oh, henkma used the trick that 99l lexes as 99 + l. funny that popped into my mind earlier today...
22:23:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, Xe seems like DC velicoraptor basically hm
22:23:46 <int-e> oerjan: I did that too
22:24:00 <AndoDaan> you had an ai look for the expression.
22:24:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember what Re is for
22:24:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember figuring out that Se was basically DC black
22:24:37 <MDude> Roman numerals could work pretty well with scientific notation.
22:25:10 <int-e> oerjan: ok, henkma's and my code ended up almost identical anyway
22:25:48 <oerjan> heh indeed, and quite different from mine
22:26:23 <int-e> perhaps I should say "isomorphic"
22:26:31 <oerjan> they _are_ identical, except for naming and a switch between ; and newline
22:26:38 <int-e> or, alpha-equivalent
22:26:48 <int-e> (the ; doesn't really count)
22:27:18 <int-e> it's just that I have all my shinh haskell golf code in a single file and that's easier to manage when the code is all on one line.
22:27:46 <oerjan> indeed. i seem to have switched from ; to newlines after i found out how to count chars in a block in vim
22:27:55 <MDude> Alpha-equivalent would be a neat band band name.
22:28:31 <int-e> oerjan: I don't count. http://sprunge.us/hbfF
22:28:51 <int-e> oerjan: the --- thing is the best known solution, I put my own above if it's optimal :)
22:31:13 <oerjan> <AndoDaan> phew. <-- you mean DISAPPOINTING hth
22:31:15 <int-e> and so far I have not run into a problem that *needs* newlines.
22:31:41 <AndoDaan> i couldn't dare to be so hard.
22:32:04 <AndoDaan> i know my limitations, and what ais523, or even you guys do is beyond me, and impressive.
22:33:02 <int-e> oh well, oerjan wrote an unlambda interpreter in intercal
22:33:02 <AndoDaan> of course, i've only taken an interest in the nitty gritty of programming and such, these last few months.
22:33:15 <int-e> I guess from that perspective, a bridge AI looks at least doable.
22:35:57 <oerjan> int-e: i'm not that efficient. my Golf.hs file contains a lot of sometimes nested {- -}'s which confuse vim's syntax coloring no end.
22:38:05 <oerjan> int-e: to _need_ newlines you'd have something with two do blocks or the like in it, i think, so that you cannot put both at the end.
22:38:22 <int-e> oerjan: do and where blocks, right.
22:38:42 <oerjan> i haven't had a use for where or let yet, the seem too verbose compared to the alternatives.
22:39:09 <ais523> OK, this newsreader is ridiculous
22:39:23 <ais523> it has a drop-down menu to choose the Encoding header you want, with a choice of valid options
22:39:31 <ais523> however, the message itself is always sent in latin-1
22:39:35 <oerjan> i _did_ use a do block once, but then you beat me and i had to find another solution.
22:40:30 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, I do have *one* where so far, and I wouldn't know how to replace it without making that particular code longer.
22:41:58 <int-e> (I could use let...in... at the same cost)
22:42:05 <ais523> anyway, I just sent my program + documentation to alt.lang.intercal
22:42:32 <oerjan> int-e: is that code revealed yet? (or ever.)
22:44:24 <oerjan> it is possible one of my not-yet-revealed solutions _could_ give you a hint to improve that. then maybe not. :P
22:50:17 <int-e> > map length ["(\f->)$val","where f=val"]
22:50:36 -!- AndoDaan has quit.
22:51:09 <oerjan> did you just improve it yourself :)
22:51:20 <int-e> no. it's not applicable.
22:51:59 <oerjan> it's also _still_ longer than the hint you might get.
22:53:06 <int-e> we also both know about infix operators, which can also sometimes help in that context.
22:56:12 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:56:38 <oerjan> yes, i haven't actually got my trick to be the _best_ option yet, alas.
22:56:54 <oerjan> but i think it's only a matter of time.
22:56:58 -!- ais523 has quit.
22:57:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:58:07 <int-e> I see what you mean. But it's still not applicable. :)
22:59:13 <int-e> a certain haskell 2010 novelty.
22:59:39 <oerjan> bah hinting too much again :P
23:00:50 <oerjan> the only reason i can see why it wouldn't be applicable is if you are using several guards that the where needs to scope over.
23:00:59 <int-e> nice one, I should find a use for it :)
23:01:10 <oerjan> except then a let ... in wouldn't work?
23:02:20 <oerjan> i suppose they could be structured completely differently.
23:02:35 <int-e> you're on the wrong track
23:03:20 <int-e> > let f|True=1;f|False=2 in f
23:03:38 <int-e> > let f|True=1|False=2 in f
23:04:05 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
23:05:47 <int-e> (I guess I shouldn't show that particular line to a Haskell beginner, even with proper whitespace added)
23:06:22 <oerjan> > let f|True,True=1|False=2 in f
23:07:26 <oerjan> so i wasn't on the wrong track anyhow? :)
23:07:53 <int-e> > case () of _|True<-True->True
23:08:14 <int-e> > case () of _| True<-True,True->True
23:09:10 <int-e> > case () of _| True|True<-True,True->True -- alas
23:09:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:19: parse error on input ‘|’
23:09:50 <fizzie> Also! It was Coruscant (which, to be fair, I've heard to be Trantor-inspired) with the more ridiculous canonical population figure, of approximately one trillion.
23:09:52 <int-e> (I don't know what the semantics of that are supposed to be)
23:10:48 <oerjan> > case () of _| True,True<-True,True->True
23:10:54 -!- boily has joined.
23:12:47 <ais523> fizzie: that's only like 100 times the population density of the Earth
23:13:02 <ais523> I think that'd be achievable with the technology level of that universe
23:13:12 <ais523> especially given that planets are three-dimensional
23:13:29 <oerjan> the problem that always comes up is removing waste heat
23:13:57 <oerjan> as in, they need to be able to break laws of thermodynamics
23:14:06 <fizzie> Yes, that's the canonical thing. People have written oodles of text about how that's a problem, and also about how that's not a problem.
23:14:28 <ais523> I shouldn't be surprised that people have looked into whether this would be feasible
23:14:35 <ais523> I hadn't really considered it
23:14:58 <oerjan> Irregular Webcomic had comics referring to it
23:16:34 <fizzie> http://mqallen.com/2013/05/16/coruscant-heat-dissipation-and-basic-worldbuilding/ claims it's not a problem.
23:16:49 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
23:20:08 <fizzie> There are a number of places that claim it is, including, yes, IWC.
23:21:10 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:21:40 <ais523> hmm, that article thinks it's not a problem if one trillion people live there
23:21:47 <ais523> however, it also estimates the population at one quintillion
23:22:15 <ais523> which would definitely cause heat dissipation problems
23:24:12 <fizzie> Some of the official novels mention the heat-to-space thing.
23:25:53 <elliott> all I want is to fill germany with fertiliser
23:26:27 <Bike> the fertilizer was in you all along, elliott
23:43:55 <oerjan> why is my solution to belgian numbers 3 chars longer than int-e's hmm
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23:49:22 <Bike> probably twelve or so
23:49:55 <oerjan> it's occasionally claimed that it's not so hard unless you've had your brain ruined by other languages first.
23:49:58 <Bike> it's twelve, what more do you want from me
23:50:11 <Bike> that's an exact, quantitative measurement
23:50:11 <Taneb> AndoDaan, if you go into it thinking it's going to be hard, it's going to be hard. If you go into it thinking it's going to be easy, it might be easy
23:50:15 <AndoDaan> i know a few languages... a couple.
23:50:17 <Taneb> (I found it pretty easy)
23:50:25 <oerjan> AndoDaan: then you're DOOMED hth
23:50:41 <Taneb> (if you can grasp programming without mutability you'll probably be fine)
23:50:41 <oerjan> Taneb: but you only knew Piet beforehand, no?
23:50:52 <oerjan> so it was actually a step _down_
23:51:00 <Taneb> oerjan, Piet, a little VB.Net, JavaScript, PHP, Python
23:51:12 <Bike> don't forget snobol
23:51:23 <Bike> Snobol's about 18 hard to learn, if you need a comparison
23:51:25 <oerjan> ok let's say that it was the Piet that saved your brain. like unlambda mine.
23:51:50 <Taneb> I actually broke my laptop writing very bad Python trying to solve a Project Euler problem
23:52:05 <Taneb> Well, it started thrashing and I sort of messed up stopping then recovering
23:52:47 <Taneb> I am now a better programmer than I used to be
23:52:54 <int-e> hey I started with some Basic, machine code, Pascal, Assembly, Logo, Scheme, C ... with some scripting languages inbetween. lambda calculus, haskell.
23:52:59 <AndoDaan> it's good for creating prototype... languages, right? i was looking at the icfp competition and haskell does alright.
23:53:25 <AndoDaan> i'm so tired of Lua making my life difficult.
23:53:27 <Bike> when coupled with a parser written in something convenient like snobol, perhaps
23:53:39 <oerjan> AndoDaan: yes ... *swats Bike -----###
23:53:44 <Taneb> Could I join the asking a question queue
23:54:07 <int-e> AndoDaan: just don't expect it to be like the programming languages that you already know. you'll often have to learn new ways of solving old problems.
23:54:43 <Taneb> Could someone explain to me why only prime n make 2^n - 1 prime?
23:54:53 <Bike> it's been said that snobol is not so hard unless you've had your brain ruined by other languages first
23:55:01 <oerjan> Taneb: 2^(mn)-1 is divisible by 2^m-1
23:55:05 <int-e> Taneb: because 2^a-1 divides 2^(a*b)-1
23:55:20 <boily> Taneb: because oerjan and int-e said so.
23:55:55 <boily> AndoDaan: it is a good thing. it's very frustrating at times, but it gives you a rather pleasing high when you can make it work with clean mathematical principles.
23:56:24 <int-e> Taneb: it's a special case of the fact that k-1 divides k^n-1 for all k>1 and n>=0.
23:56:33 <ais523> also, I have decided that Prolog is an esolang
23:56:33 <Taneb> int-e, why does that hold?
23:56:44 <Taneb> ais523, sounds legit
23:56:48 <oerjan> Bike: cobol is 13 hard but only because your brain keeps falling asleep
23:56:58 <Bike> a legitimate concern!
23:56:59 <ais523> it's nothing like pretty much any other language, and it tends to have terrible library support
23:57:03 <boily> AndoDaan: if you haven't read it yet, you should peruse Learn You a Haskell for Great Good.
23:57:09 <ais523> (put it this way: I have to write my own maps and folds in Prolog)
23:57:33 <AndoDaan> i think that's where mroman got the title for his burlesque's tutorial
23:58:00 <AndoDaan> "Read Learn you a Burlesque for no good!"
23:58:05 <oerjan> Taneb: (k^n-1) = (k^(n-1)+k^(n-2)+...+1)*(k-1), proof by cancelling terms
23:58:11 <int-e> Taneb: prove it by induction. intuitively, if you multiply (k^(n-1)+...+k^2+k+1) by (k-1), you get k^n-k^(n-1)+k^(n-1)..-k+k-1, and most terms cancel.
23:58:18 <int-e> oerjan: stop reading my mind!
23:58:31 <Taneb> Can I pretend that is a standard result for my number theory assignment?
23:58:38 <int-e> (I guess there is only this standard explanation)
23:58:43 <Bike> i kind of want a copy of mathematics made difficult just so i can spout answers from it
23:59:05 <int-e> Taneb: of course I'm the wrong person to ask :P
23:59:14 <Bike> let's see, you want to prove limit cycles exist. well, first, i'll need to tell you about types with holes
23:59:18 <oerjan> int-e: there's probably a fancier one that's very short and elegant
23:59:24 <int-e> Taneb: but it is a standard result.
23:59:46 <oerjan> indeed, k^n == 1^n (mod k-1), come to think of it
00:00:05 <int-e> oerjan: well, k=1(mod k-1), so k^n = 1^n (mod k-1), done.
00:00:19 <Taneb> I shall have to prove this so-called standard result myself at some point
00:00:25 <oerjan> int-e: is there a terrible lag between us
00:00:59 <int-e> oerjan: no, I pressed the return key before reading what you wrote.
00:01:33 <int-e> timestamps: 01:59:46 <oerjan> 02:00:04 <int-e>
00:02:50 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_prime#Theorems_about_Mersenne_numbers it's also #2 here
00:11:25 <int-e> Hmm... show that if 4^a + b^4 is prime then either a = b = 1 or a is even.
00:11:38 <int-e> Taneb: for you ;-)
00:12:44 <Taneb> Awww it's quarter past one in the morning
00:12:57 <Taneb> I should really sleep so I can hand this assignment in before my 10:30 lecture
00:13:17 <int-e> quintopia: it has an elementary solution
00:13:34 <Sgeo> "I returned the iPhone to Apple because it didn't have a "back" button."
00:13:41 <Sgeo> Sounds like a feature, not a bug, to me
00:13:57 <Sgeo> (In case anyone hadn't noticed, I hate the back button)
00:14:25 <quintopia> int-e: it's not at all obvious to me
00:14:27 <int-e> quintopia: but yeah, it's not easy to find.
00:15:03 <quintopia> i mean, like it's not even obvious at first glance that 4^3+5^4=689 is composite!
00:15:30 <oerjan> i quickly found that b had to be divisible by 5, anyhow
00:15:33 <quintopia> int-e: is it based on one of those factoring tricks
00:15:50 <int-e> quintopia: of course
00:16:05 <quintopia> yeah i can never see those stupid things
00:16:12 <Bike> 2,3,4,6,9,8,12,18,27,...
00:16:16 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAA!
00:17:54 <boily> what did you today?
00:22:11 <quintopia> int-e: i think i see it. has to do with the fact you can write 4^a as 4*(2^k)^4 for a odd, where k>0?
00:22:29 <boily> chinese fooded with a friend, then we went to the other side of the city to go see an insect exhibition, then beer and snacks.
00:23:31 <oerjan> were the insects the snacks twh
00:23:48 <quintopia> oerjan: don't knock it if you haven't tried it
00:24:03 <oerjan> sorry, insects are not cricket around here
00:24:16 <quintopia> boily: i also "finished" my password generator prototype
00:24:55 <boily> oerjan: in fact, I tasted some grasshopers (and bough a jar of salsa) at a kiosk, but the snacks that we ordered with the beers were more conventional (chorizo, chutney and bread)
00:25:17 <quintopia> that's not conventional around here.
00:25:21 <boily> quintopia: finishing a prototype is an oxymoron.
00:25:50 <boily> the chorizo was deliciously smokey, and the chutney mustardey.
00:26:02 <boily> indeed, a subtle but important vocabulary difference.
00:26:33 <quintopia> on friday i went with a friend to a bar and we started a game of cards against humanity with random strangers
00:27:15 <quintopia> i feel like i should just quit my job
00:27:27 <boily> hmm... iirc there's a taco-serving bar in the Mile End, but reviews agree that the place is beyond terrible.
00:27:39 <boily> quintopia: do as lexande did, and visit me ^^
00:27:58 <oerjan> ok now i just have 2 chars more than int-e
00:28:19 <quintopia> i would totally visit you. i will visit everyone that wants to be visited. (sorry oerjan.)
00:35:06 <Sgeo> quintopia: do you yourself want to be visited, and does this mean you will visit yourself?
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00:45:42 <ais523> Sgeo: quintopia visits everyone who does not visit themself
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00:53:07 <boily> my beard is hard to shave. it'd be the Challenge Boss Beard at the end of the Visit Quest.
00:53:50 <oerjan> i'd have to grow one first.
00:54:35 <AndoDaan> will :t always show what a function does?
00:54:46 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:56:05 <AndoDaan> yeah, i messed up... for stuff like :t (a,b) it coincidentally show's what it does
00:56:34 <AndoDaan> but :t (==) just shows bool after a couple ->
00:56:40 <Bike> it is pretty good for seeing what a function does.
00:57:00 <Bike> It takes an a, and gives you a thing that takes an a and returns a Bool, where a has to be in the "Eq" class.
00:57:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Eq’
00:57:06 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘EQ’ (imported from Data.Ord)
00:57:17 <Bike> Eq is a class, not a type
00:57:21 <oerjan> lambdabot doesn't have :i
00:57:23 <Bike> well, a "typeclass" i guess
00:57:32 <oerjan> AndoDaan: you can try :i Eq in GHCi
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00:57:51 <Bike> A typeclass is just an abstract definition, a very little bit like a virtual class definition in OOP Language Du Jou
00:58:15 <Bike> things in the Eq class have to have == defined, and probably some other crap
00:58:28 <oerjan> oh right :i Eq will give a big list of known instances
00:58:46 <boily> Bike: only (==) is necessary, because (/=) has a default implementation. that's about it for Eq.
00:58:58 <Bike> he said it was long and i'm too lazy to pull up local ghci
00:59:56 <oerjan> it's the instance list that's long.
01:00:16 <oerjan> mostly because of all the tuple lengths.
01:00:16 <Bike> oh, that makes sense. the definition is short, but lots of things have == work on them.
01:01:11 <Bike> anyway so if you have your own type you can define an == method on it, and then other functions already defined in terms of == will work with your type.
01:01:23 <oerjan> Bike: careful about comparing haskell typeclasses to OO classes, soon you'll be teaching AndoDaan bad habits >:)
01:01:30 <Bike> way ahead of you
01:01:56 <Bike> if you don't stop me i'll tell andodaan that haskell is a programming language and not homotopy type theory. mwa ha ha ha ha
01:02:16 * oerjan doesn't know homotopy type theory anyway
01:02:35 <AndoDaan> something to do with topological mapping>
01:02:47 <AndoDaan> sounds like good words to guess at.
01:04:16 <oerjan> a homotopy in "ordinary" math is a topological mapping of a sort. also a _path_ between two other topological mappings.
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01:05:03 <oerjan> but how that's got analogized/transfered into type theory of programming languages (not really haskell, though) i'm very unsure about.
01:05:22 <oerjan> i think category theory got involved in the middle :P
01:05:56 <AndoDaan> i mean, i kinda know what those things are.
01:06:16 <shachaf> oerjan: just, like, ∞ groupoids, man
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01:16:37 <AndoDaan_> ah cool, just wrote a fibonacci equation, on my own.
01:18:09 <oerjan> now make one that doesn't have exponential blowup hth (tdnh)
01:18:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:18:36 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
01:18:47 <oerjan> hope that clears it up
01:20:50 <AndoDaan_> is there a way to define fib n without recursion? like using an approximation of the golden ratio?
01:21:07 <ais523> AndoDaan_: there's a closed-form formula that calculates it directly
01:21:12 <quintopia> Sgeo: i visit myself whenever the urge overtakes me. and no one's looking, of course.
01:23:51 <oerjan> mind you, that closed formula uses floating point, so you might get rounding errors.
01:24:15 <oerjan> (it has the golden ratio and its inverse in it)
01:24:37 <shachaf> i thought phi was a real number but it turns out it was a floating point all along :'(
01:25:04 <oerjan> real numbers are just points in R hth
01:26:00 <shachaf> real numbers are, like, crazy, man
01:26:01 <oerjan> there is also a formula using matrix exponentiation, which can use exact integers.
01:28:40 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
01:31:04 <oerjan> @let instance Num a => Num [[a]] where m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:31:05 <lambdabot> ‘+’, ‘abs’, ‘signum’, ‘fromInteger’, and (either ‘negate’ or ‘-’)
01:31:05 <lambdabot> In the instance declaration for ‘Num [[a]]’
01:31:23 <oerjan> don't tell me that means it won't take
01:31:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show t0)
01:31:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M650974571118004358930528.show_M6509745711180043589...
01:31:39 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:31:39 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
01:31:39 <lambdabot> instance [safe] GHC.Show.Show L.Poles -- Defined at L.hs:157:1
01:31:55 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [[GHC.Types.Int]])
01:33:06 <shachaf> best pragma or bester pragma?
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01:33:38 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger=ud;m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:35:30 <oerjan> @let fib n = head$head$[[1,1],[1,0]]^n
01:35:44 <AndoDaan_> i'm a way off from constructing something like that.
01:35:44 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [1..20]]
01:35:46 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946]
01:36:20 <oerjan> AndoDaan_: making matrix multiplication work with lists may be a _tiny_ bit non-recommended.
01:36:33 <AndoDaan_> although i could figure it had something to do with the sum of tails.
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01:36:41 <shachaf> hoorærjan for making fib 0 = 1
01:36:46 <Bike> no addition...
01:36:54 <boily> shachaf: æ? not even œ?
01:37:15 <oerjan> Bike: i only implemented what was needed to make ^ work
01:37:16 <Bike> still waiting on inner products btw
01:37:31 <shachaf> Bike: what's an inner product
01:37:38 <Bike> like dot product, but moreso\
01:37:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i wasn't sure which matrix element was the right one, sorry
01:39:39 <quintopia> boily: gah work is going to be a PITA this week
01:39:51 <oerjan> shachaf: fib 0 = 0 is prettier, you get fib (gcd m n) = gcd (fib m) (fib n)
01:40:40 <oerjan> and also abs(fib (-n)) == abs(fib n)
01:41:07 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger=ud;m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:41:16 <shachaf> oerjan: but the children's book i learned about fib from started it off with 1,1
01:41:24 <oerjan> @let fib n = [[1,1],[1,0]]^n!!1!!1
01:41:31 <quintopia> boily: should i feel bad if i just leave the dog unwalked, and get up early tomorrow?
01:41:41 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [0..20]]
01:41:43 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Integral b0)
01:41:43 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Num.Num t => [[[t]]]
01:42:38 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger=ud;m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:43:14 <oerjan> @let fib n = ([[1,1],[1,0]]^n)!!1!!0
01:43:21 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [0..20]]
01:43:33 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [1..20]]
01:43:35 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765]
01:43:52 <oerjan> it won't work for 0 because i didn't define fromIntegral.
01:45:19 <boily> quintopia: only meanies unwalk dogs.
01:45:48 <boily> (unless it's a chihuahua; then it permanently walks only by cumulative vibration.)
01:46:35 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger n=[[n,0],[0,n]];m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:46:36 <lambdabot> bound by the instance declaration at .L.hs:154:10-29
01:46:36 <lambdabot> ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
01:46:58 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger n=[[fromInteger n,0],[0,fromInteger n]];m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:47:07 <oerjan> @let fib n = ([[1,1],[1,0]]^n)!!1!!0
01:47:12 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [0..20]]
01:47:14 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765]
01:47:54 <lambdabot> 3364476487643178326662161200510754331030214846068006390656476997468008144216...
01:51:38 <FireFly> [ fib =: 3 :'{: {: (+/ .*)^:y~ 1 1,.1 0'
01:51:55 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34
01:52:39 <Bike> > let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in fib 10000 - (phi ** 10000 - (1 - phi) ** 10000) / sqrt 5
01:52:50 <Bike> and, i suppose, obvious
01:55:37 <Bike> > let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in fib 100 - (phi ** 100 - (1 - phi) ** 100) / sqrt 5
01:56:18 <Bike> > let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in (fib 10, (phi ** 10 - (1 - phi) ** 10) / sqrt 5)
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04:16:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OrthINTERCAL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40629&oldid=25606 * 157.182.186.93 * (+36) Changed dead link to archive.org link
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06:38:48 <Sgeo> If I keep suddenly getting interest in things I hate, does this mean someday I will be interested in (and potentially attempt to defend) PHP?
06:41:22 <ais523> Sgeo: you should do that, watching you attempting to defend PHP would be hilarious
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07:06:50 <Sgeo> "These loosely-typed variables are one of the properties that make PHP such an easy and powerful language, although they can sometimes also cause interesting problems
07:14:32 <Sgeo> Huh. PHP variables are copy-on-write. That's actually interesting.
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07:20:53 <InvalidCo> Sgeo: did you know the real reason behind PHPs odd, inconsistent function naming schemes?
07:21:43 <Sgeo> Because different things were added by different people? Oh, wait, the whole 'we want certain number of functions with different lengths of names'/
07:21:50 <InvalidCo> originally, PHP's function dispatch used string length for a hash-function
07:22:13 <InvalidCo> so it was more optimized to have a smoother distribution across
07:22:51 <InvalidCo> of course, I haven't cleaned any gutters lately so I can't say if they've finally got a saner or a zanier naming scheme
07:23:49 <Sgeo> Ok. If I'm understanding PHP references properly... it's hard to mix both the normal COW behavior and the reference behavior, because each zval either has references or not?
07:24:29 <Sgeo> Yay I guessed right "Something interesting—and perhaps unexpected— happens if you mix an assign-by-value call and an assign-by-reference call. "
07:26:28 <Sgeo> Oh, no I didn't
07:26:42 <Sgeo> PHP tries to keep things sane, by considering it a write, I guess?
07:27:16 <Sgeo> Well, done reading for now
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07:29:00 <InvalidCo> I guess PHP isn't that bad if you code it on your time off
07:29:20 <InvalidCo> just competing with the other kids, seeing who can make the biggest sand castle
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08:11:50 <mroman> @tell oerjan I figured that already out :)
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09:10:26 <fizzie> InvalidCo: Re QBasic http://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html
09:10:52 <fizzie> (I did that HTMLization of the help file a way back, and want to get maximum use out of it.)
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09:44:00 <mroman> Does PHP have an @deprecated or something?
09:44:35 <mroman> people are still using mysql_* for new apps
09:45:49 <mroman> also books in CS schools are still using PHP 4
09:46:27 <mroman> that's not surprising :)
09:46:49 <mroman> our maps in geography in Sekundarschule still had the sowjet union on it :)
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10:53:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
10:53:38 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr’
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11:11:17 <fizzie> elliott: Bad news, I got a second job offer too.
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12:00:30 <Jafet> You could give one of them away.
12:01:08 <Jafet> Of course, the difficulty is choosing which one.
12:02:38 <int-e> Throw a coin, then decide whether to accept its decision or not :P
12:03:33 <int-e> (It's funny. I believe this could actually help me in making decisions, simply by establishing a default option.)
12:04:39 <Jafet> Throw a coin, then set the upper face to represent the decision you wanted to make
12:15:21 <int-e> Jafet: that would defeat the purpose.
12:15:31 <int-e> But I think you knew that.
12:15:57 <int-e> And of course you should use whatever self-deception tricks that work for *you*.
12:22:00 <mroman> int-e: That's kinda why I have http://mroman.ch/cgi/whichlang.pl
12:25:25 <Jafet> I know that self-deception doesn't really work, but believing it just makes life easier.
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12:35:42 <mroman> J_Arcane: By visiting the link above your legally bound to actually use the language it suggested .
12:36:01 <J_Arcane> I don't even know 90% of those.
12:36:06 <mroman> I hope you got COBOL!!!
12:36:59 <mroman> BANCSTAR is in there too
12:41:57 <J_Arcane> ahahahaha. http://www.i-programmer.info/news/204-challenges/6474-cobol-code-contest-challenge.html
12:44:35 <J_Arcane> http://academic.microfocus.com/code/
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13:08:58 <mroman> Become a star programmer with BANCSTAR.
13:09:18 <mroman> BANCSTAR. Only $9.95. (+ Manual for $99)
13:15:33 <lambdabot> mroman said 5h 3m 43s ago: I figured that already out :)
13:20:01 <mroman> There was one at least.
13:20:54 <mroman> I've never heard from jloughry again
13:21:03 <mroman> so I suspect he didn't find it and he also couldn't restore the floppy
13:27:40 <b_jonas> so people who try to figure out bancstar disappear?
13:27:59 <mroman> probably has something to do with the moon landing
13:28:07 <b_jonas> mroman: more likely with boojums
13:28:08 <mroman> People say BANCStar was involved in the hoax.
13:29:37 <oerjan> duh, BANCStar is the moon's _real_ name
13:31:29 <oerjan> also, today's xkcd is relevant.
13:32:07 <oerjan> i recommend reloading hth
13:33:17 <oerjan> (maybe xkcd has regional obnoxious caching. _that_ would be weird.)
13:33:44 <int-e> it could be a misconfigured proxy.
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14:19:56 <Taneb> One of my lecturers has sent me a couple of esolang-like things used in PhDs
14:21:02 <Taneb> http://strlen.com/aardappel-language is one
14:21:14 <Taneb> Concurrent tree-reduction, at a glance
14:21:29 <Taneb> With... inter-tree communication?
14:22:31 <Taneb> http://synrc.com/publications/cat/Category%20Theory/Type%20Theory/Hagino%20T.%20A%20Categorical%20Programming%20Language.pdf is the other, seems to have a lot of Category Theory in it
14:23:16 <Taneb> "Data types are declared using F,G-dialgebras and each data type is associated with its own control structure."
14:26:50 * oerjan remembers hearing about aardappel here before
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18:40:02 <Jafet> So is this esoteric or just plain retarded http://hal.inria.fr/hal-00762330/PDF/paper-ieee.pdf
18:40:35 <Jafet> (Blazy and Giacobazzi, "Towards a formally verified obfuscating compiler")
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18:55:07 <mroman> AndoDaan_: Fibonacci Numbers is hard :)
18:55:34 <mroman> Fibonacci Numbers is easy
18:55:38 <mroman> Fibonacci Number is hard
18:55:43 <mroman> (two different challenges)
18:56:16 <mroman> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Fibonacci+Number <- the hard one
18:56:25 <mroman> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Fibonacci+Numbers <- the easy one
18:57:10 <b_jonas> hmm, that hard one asks for the 71th fibonacci number. that's too large to compute with my regex solution
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19:00:23 <mroman> Fibonacci is just a Continuation of Addition
19:03:44 <mroman> not even gs2 beats Burlesque at Fibonacci
19:04:05 <mroman> but I think mauris will push an update to gs2 to get <10B :(
19:04:41 <mroman> AndoDaan_: The trick is to do something like this
19:05:02 <mroman> !blsq 1 1^^j^^.+^^j^^.+#s
19:05:30 <FreeFull> In a specialised stack-based language, fibbonacci would be 2]1]+d.
19:05:47 <blsqbot> {233 144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1}
19:06:47 <FreeFull> Based on a stack which loops around
19:06:57 <mroman> just execute addition n-times on the stack without destroying the arguments to Addition
19:07:06 <mroman> that's exactly what 10C! does
19:07:09 <FreeFull> You can get rid of the d. if you make output implicit
19:07:16 <mroman> it executes .+ 10 times on the stack without destroying the arguments
19:07:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:07:26 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:07:28 <blsqbot> 734544867157818093234908902110449296423351
19:07:31 <blsqbot> 581811569836004006491505558634099066259034153405766997246569401
19:07:34 <blsqbot> 46083597875350357822621588307387224638576447208679708287320318854254461644824834
19:07:38 <blsqbot> 36501474072363421101223707790647935599608158150145549785274782936680019936155017
19:07:41 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:07:43 <blsqbot> 28911753224200479465784293958052399219220608157483365108350572978936438524949474
19:07:49 <FreeFull> You have to initialise everything somehow
19:07:53 <FreeFull> That makes things more complicated
19:07:59 <blsqbot> 14367013614608593758393119085902136148903960934548935960896147901619817146083434
19:08:02 <blsqbot> 13963900747924802197891995921996856368918424126603691200660357769322735706873056
19:08:10 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:08:17 <blsqbot> 10155271254877282719737169416675589367560656417382702545186421663823487395855700
19:08:28 <b_jonas> in a non-idealized stack based language, it's like this:
19:08:32 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|head -20
19:08:32 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:08:42 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:08:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: c: not found
19:08:54 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
19:09:03 <mroman> b_jonas: Can it calculate the 5000thst fibonacci number?
19:09:04 <b_jonas> `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx|head -20
19:09:04 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
19:09:11 <b_jonas> mroman: that first one can, yes
19:09:20 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed 50
19:09:20 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:09:24 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50
19:09:24 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:09:37 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed 50\!d
19:09:37 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:10:12 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50p
19:10:13 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:10:23 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50p
19:10:27 <int-e> `` seq 10 | sed 5q
19:10:56 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50p;50q
19:11:22 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|head -n50|tail -n1
19:11:28 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|head -n500|tail -n1
19:11:29 <HackEgo> 388484183426537766350753518180972865642314621443875164454555847769482\
19:11:51 <b_jonas> dc breaks long numbers to multiple lines
19:12:10 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -N -40
19:12:11 <HackEgo> tail: invalid option -- 'N' \ Try `tail --help' for more information.
19:12:14 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -n -40
19:12:20 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -n +40
19:12:22 <HackEgo> 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134903170 \ 1836311903 \ 2971215073 \ 4807526976 \ 7778742049 \ 12586269025 \ 20365011074 \ 32951280099 \ 53316291173 \ 86267571272 \ 139583862445 \ 225851433717 \ 365435296162 \ 591286729879 \ 956722026041 \ 1548008755920 \ 2504730781961 \ 4052739537881 \ 6557470319842 \ 10610209857723 \
19:12:23 <mroman> !blsq 1 1q.+60000000C!th
19:12:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:12:28 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -n +80
19:12:28 <HackEgo> 23416728348467685 \ 37889062373143906 \ 61305790721611591 \ 99194853094755497 \ 160500643816367088 \ 259695496911122585 \ 420196140727489673 \ 679891637638612258 \ 1100087778366101931 \ 1779979416004714189 \ 2880067194370816120 \ 4660046610375530309 \ 7540113804746346429 \ 12200160415121876738 \ 19740274219868223167 \ 31940434634990099905 \ 5168070
19:12:31 <mroman> !blsq 1 1q.+6000000C!th
19:12:31 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:12:51 <mroman> I guess th isn't very lazy
19:13:06 <mroman> !blsq 1 1q.+6000000C!{}#S
19:13:07 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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19:13:56 <mroman> AndoDaan_: Fibonacci is 1 1q.+NNC! :)
19:14:15 <mroman> I'll tell you that because that one's an example program on the esolang page anyway
19:14:29 <mroman> (so it's spoilered there anyway)
19:14:48 <mroman> Fibonacci Number on the other hand requires some serious thinking to get 14B :D
19:15:19 <b_jonas> argh, I can never get anagolf accept any of my solutions that are supposed to work with 1/9 probability
19:15:28 <b_jonas> (there can't be more than 3 tests, so that's common)
19:15:48 <mroman> just write a script that submitts it twice a minute
19:15:57 <mroman> that's how the pros are doing it
19:18:50 <b_jonas> argh, the easier http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Fibonacci+Numbers asks for too many numbers for my regex solution to work too
19:19:01 <b_jonas> mind you, it's too long anyway
19:21:41 <b_jonas> let me see if I can adapt my dc solution though
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19:22:00 <b_jonas> I'll have to edit it to stop after 45 lines
19:29:12 <b_jonas> 23. but there must be a way to cut a few chars
19:30:40 <b_jonas> only 2 worse than the record in dc
19:38:25 <b_jonas> and I only had to perturb my existing golf that prints the existing sequence:
19:38:41 <b_jonas> as in, modify it to stop after a while, then fix so it starts and stops with exactly the right line
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19:59:13 <elliott> fizzie: does that job offer come with a dangerously high risk of #esoteric meetups?
20:00:03 <elliott> int-e: I often flip a coin when I think I can't decide between options, so that when I immediately regret it landing on one side I can see that I actually have a preference.
20:00:09 <elliott> okay, I don't actually flip a coin.
20:00:14 <elliott> but I imagine doing it and that's good enough.
20:00:56 <elliott> Taneb: the cerator of aardappel (nick aardappel, in fact) is actually an op here
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20:16:51 <olsner> are jobs supposed to cause #esoteric meetups?
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20:44:12 <HackEgo> olist (965): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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20:50:51 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know how many .de people there are on channel.
20:55:25 <Bicyclidine> how would you rate your ability to survive in a six cubic meter container?
20:56:22 <Taneb> I would like to state I am in favour of a #esoteric UK meetup although I don't think there are that many
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21:06:07 <fizzie> Taneb: If you haven't caught the news, next year I might be one, depending.
21:12:24 <Taneb> People in the UK who would be interested
21:12:33 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: six cubic meter? that's small. survive for how long, and what's in the container?
21:12:53 <Taneb> fizzie, I will *probably* be in York
21:13:17 <elliott> Taneb: me, you, ph, ais523, cpressey, impomatic, fizzie(?) is the list I know
21:13:29 <elliott> well, no idea about interest
21:13:39 <elliott> but presence in the UK is close enough :p
21:13:46 <b_jonas> elliott: that would be a lot if you could get all together to a meetup, but that's unlikely
21:13:59 <elliott> b_jonas: just need a bit of coercion
21:14:04 <Taneb> cpressey is in the UK?
21:14:31 <b_jonas> maybe try to organize it some time when some other esoteric person visits the UK
21:14:45 <Taneb> By what I know about locations of where we are, Birmingham is a not-terrible place to meet up
21:15:01 <Taneb> Excluding the fact that, in general, Birmingham is a terrible place :P
21:15:31 <elliott> Taneb: I hear ais523 is still offering INTERCAL lessons to anyone who shows up
21:15:36 <Bicyclidine> b_jonas: me, ais, cpressey, and elliott are in the container. you are armed with a sharp piece of metal
21:15:53 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, this is a really weird text adventure
21:16:24 <Bicyclidine> i only tell the truth, elliott only lies, and ais is debating whether having you eat the rings on his fingers is a good idea
21:17:12 <b_jonas> Taneb: you mean, terrible compared to England in general?
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21:18:58 <Taneb> York is much nicer, from what I've experienced
21:20:07 <b_jonas> I wonder, in general, is the UK going to become a worse place in the following decade if they're trying to copy all the bad ideas from the US in a faster rate than the rest of Europe is?
21:20:17 <b_jonas> And are they even trying that?
21:20:21 <Taneb> York has a street with more letters in its name than meters in its length!
21:20:55 <b_jonas> Hmm... I think we might have such a short street too. I'm not sure
21:21:56 <elliott> b_jonas: the UK has been working hard on becoming a worse place for much longer than this decade tyvm
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21:23:45 <b_jonas> hmm no, more letters than length in meter is a strong challenge. we probably don't have such a streed
21:24:27 <b_jonas> we probably don't have such a street, but it's hard to be sure
21:24:51 <Taneb> (that was a bit of an exaggeration,upon checking the street has 16 letters (although more characters if you count hyphens) but 17 meters)
21:25:24 <Taneb> The co-op closes in 30 minutes
21:26:40 <Taneb> Or I could stay here and continue listening to Eurovision songs
21:26:45 <Taneb> ...when I put it like that....
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21:42:46 <FreeFull> If I move out of the UK, where should I move to?
21:52:40 <Taneb> FreeFull, I hear York is nice
21:52:53 <Taneb> (York city council does not pay me to advertise York)
21:53:05 <FreeFull> Yeah, I'm in Reading right now, for university
21:53:32 <Taneb> FreeFull, no it isn't
21:54:02 <FreeFull> York has done what Scotland didn't dare to?
21:54:50 <Taneb> (I'm being silly, but there is actually a Yorkshire independence movement)
21:55:00 <Taneb> (they're a bunch of loonies as far as I know)
21:56:03 <Taneb> FreeFull, what do you study?
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22:10:32 <Taneb> FreeFull, I'm doing a Computer Science and Maths degree with an integrated Master's
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22:17:33 <paul2520> ...but there are a lot of great places in the States!
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22:43:37 <oerjan> b_jonas: so Nevéthosszaméteresrövidebb Utca doesn't exist?
22:44:13 <boily> one of these words is not like the others...
22:46:08 <Sgeo> I think I'm not a fan of Forth-like languages that try to eliminate the space after ". It means that custom string-like things look notably different from normal strings
22:47:42 <boily> oerjan: N24b. unless the conversation between you and b_jonas extends in time (meaning I'll have to peruse the logs), then the probability of unlikely words greatly increases htdh
22:48:19 <oerjan> boily: it was in the log but i wasn't part of it hth
22:48:39 <oerjan> also i was just playing with google translate
22:49:20 <boily> I am déçu. long agglutinated words fascinate me.
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22:49:36 <oerjan> boily: ok google translate didn't provide the agglutination part.
22:50:05 <boily> (disappointed. déçu is disappointed. my brain's been skipping word lately...)
22:50:40 <boily> imagine: French being an agglutinative language. it would be magistral.
22:51:05 <oerjan> there are some who claim french _is_ an agglutinative language, which just has an archaic spelling system.
22:51:52 <oerjan> as in, if you invented french spelling today, a lot of words would be fused together.
22:52:25 <Taneb> Are there any agglutinative programming languages?
22:52:55 <boily> si tétè pour ékrir el fransè kom ke sa se pronons, le mond orè dla mizèr à lir skyé tékri.
22:53:11 * Sgeo wonders if it would make sense to implement Ngaro VM in Second Life
22:53:21 <boily> Taneb: I think the Forth-family is what nears the most the concept of agglutination.
22:53:43 <oerjan> burlesque and underload, things that are forth-like with no spaces?
22:54:03 <Taneb> Sgeo, you're in #esoteric. That makes more sense than most things that are on-topic here
22:54:23 <Taneb> I do not knoq Burlesque
22:54:50 <oerjan> Taneb: you really haven't been paying attention to the channel lately, have you
22:55:06 <Bicyclidine> i've seen like fifty burlesque programs now and don't know anything about it
22:55:16 <Taneb> oerjan, I mean, I know OF it
22:55:21 <Taneb> I just have no idea what is going on
22:55:25 <boily> Bicyclidine: it means you haven't inhaled enough of mroman's aura.
22:55:39 <Taneb> I have no idea what's going on in general, though
22:56:54 <Sgeo> I can't support most of these I/O ports
22:57:33 <Sgeo> I have text output, but no way to output in increments less than a line. I don't have a console
22:57:44 <Sgeo> Unless I consider 'nearby chat' a console
22:57:56 <Sgeo> Such a bad idea
22:58:08 <oerjan> Taneb: it's a language that's essentially underload-like but with heaps of additional commands.
22:58:26 <oerjan> also some laziness invented from haskell which it's implemented in
22:58:41 <Taneb> Ah, kind of like what I sort of meant Fueue to be
22:59:47 <lambdabot> CYUL 202200Z 07003KT 15SM SCT060 BKN075 OVC095 06/01 A2993 RMK SC3AC4AC1 SLP138
23:00:45 <oerjan> burlesque has become somewhat popular for golfing, although it tends to lose somewhat to other golfing languages because it has very few one-char commands, defaulting to two instead.
23:01:13 <oerjan> (this is my impression. i don't actually know burlesque although i once helped prove it TC.)
23:01:43 <Taneb> oerjan, you seem to be the person-to-go-for when a language needs proving TC
23:01:44 <oerjan> although it now has so many added commands that it would be more surprising if it _weren't_ TC.
23:03:44 <oerjan> i do seem to have got a reputation yes
23:04:54 <AndoDaan> is turing completeness mostly proved by mapping the language onto an already tc proven one?
23:05:04 <oerjan> AndoDaan: the other way around
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23:05:49 <oerjan> technically you need both ways, but assuming the language is implementable at all, the other way is usually somewhat trivial.
23:06:47 <Taneb> oerjan, I thought you only need both ways for Turing-equivalence, which, if you ignore Turing-Church, is stronger?
23:06:48 <oerjan> since you can use as powerful an already-TC language you want for implementing you new one _in_, but for the other direction you want something simple so you don't have to work so hard
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23:07:52 <elliott> I feel like I could probably make a really compact golfing language if I wanted.
23:08:02 <oerjan> Taneb: um not if turing-complete works like NP-complete, although i'm not sure if the term is that well-defined. but if it is, the version with only one way would be "turing-hard".
23:08:38 <Taneb> elliott, if it's done by characters rather than bytes, just use Unicode :)
23:08:44 <oerjan> that is, i interpret turing-complete as the same as turing-equivalent, i guess.
23:09:18 <elliott> Taneb: I mean more interestingly than that.
23:09:54 <Taneb> I think the hard bit'd be moving data around?
23:10:00 <Taneb> Haven't really thought about it much
23:10:05 <elliott> Taneb: and you don't have to ignore Church-Turing, it's a vague philosophical statement
23:10:11 <elliott> you can certainly make machines with halting oracles in theory
23:11:14 <oerjan> like on the wiki, brainhype and banana scheme are turing hard, but too strong to be turing equivalent
23:11:59 <oerjan> (they are essentially just adding halting oracles to brainfuck and scheme respectively.)
23:15:07 <oerjan> although brainhype is weaker because the recursion of halting oracles is limited by syntax rather than ordinals.
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23:21:01 <elliott> oerjan: I think "super-TC" is evidence that people use TC to mean equivalent
23:23:31 <Taneb> Ambiguity in language makes me sad
23:24:55 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm going to head to bed now
23:59:37 <Sgeo> Can an Android fan explain this to me: I am using an app. A notification from Gmail about an email comes up. I activate it and read the email. I then press back. Instead of going back to the last app I was in, I go to my inbox.
00:00:17 <Sgeo> Either I'm misunderstanding the meaning of the back button, or Google violates their own guidelines
00:03:23 <Sgeo> "In the case of the Back button, you should make navigation more predictable by inserting into the task's back stack the complete upward navigation path to the app's topmost screen. This allows users who've forgotten how they entered your app to navigate to the app's topmost screen before exiting."
00:03:32 <Sgeo> (wrt Notifications)
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00:10:40 <pikhq> That is very much Google violating their own guidelines.
00:10:45 <pikhq> *All* the Google apps do that too.
00:10:54 <pikhq> It's fucking obnoxious.
00:11:48 <pikhq> Wait, wait, reading that quote there.
00:11:54 <Sgeo> pikhq: sounds like they are following their guidelines... but the guideline is bizarre.
00:12:05 <pikhq> Holy shit that guideline is terrible.
00:12:05 <Sgeo> Are people supposed to learn to use their phones by reading developer docs?
00:12:31 <pikhq> Who the everloving fuck designed that?
00:12:42 <pikhq> Like, have they even tried *using* this?
00:12:51 <Sgeo> pikhq: well, if it's consistent... and in bold letters somewhere when you first turn on the phone... you could get used to it
00:12:56 <pikhq> It's the law of least surprise, not the law of maximal surprise!
00:13:03 <Sgeo> It's not knowing the guideline, like any lay user, that gives me a headache
00:13:10 <pikhq> But it's only slightly less surprising than having the phone emit dicks.
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00:30:29 <elliott> that guideline is reasonable if you think of it as a hierarchy
00:30:35 <elliott> it goes back unless there's no way back, in which case it goes up
00:30:50 <elliott> so you move from X to gmail -> message, go up to gmail, then back to X
00:31:27 <Sgeo> Is this in the manual somewhere? Maybe I should read it
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00:32:28 <Sgeo> Or a built-in tutorial.. 'this is the exact meaning of the back button'
00:34:16 <pikhq> elliott: The issue is that it's from a notification, so the *apparent* thing is you went from X to message, and then you go up to gmail.
00:34:46 <pikhq> "No, no, no, no, I didn't want to go to gmail!" has been a common thought.
00:35:24 <elliott> pikhq: sure, it may be less useful. I'm not sure it's confusing though. from iOS, I'd be used to "< Inbox" being in the top left, so I associate messages as being inside the hierarchy of the mail app, and would even associate a left arrow "back" symbol as going to the inbox
00:35:34 <elliott> as in, it doesn't confuse me :)
00:35:59 <pikhq> It irritates the everloving shit out of me.
00:36:09 <pikhq> It's worse with links...
00:36:13 <pikhq> Say, a link opens in Youtube.
00:36:34 <pikhq> Youtube just inserts its entire navigation stack into the hierarchy there.
00:36:50 <pikhq> Which is to say you might be 20 taps away from your other app.
00:37:32 <Sgeo> I'm scared of the back button. I just use multitasking navigation to switch between apps
00:37:42 <pikhq> I should note though that the only mental analog to the Android "back" button I have is a browser back button.
00:38:01 <pikhq> When a website does this sort of thing I want a web developer's head on a silver platter.
00:38:48 <Sgeo> So maybe iOS offers one less navigation option than Android, but it's not a big loss because that navigation option is nonsensical anyway
00:38:59 <Sgeo> Or does iOS offer something else in its place
00:39:39 <Sgeo> I thought it did
00:39:56 <elliott> it orders by most recent use, so you can use it to go back easily
00:40:12 <elliott> pikhq: true. that would be horrible on the web. so I agree with you
00:40:37 <elliott> pikhq: that said, phone apps are way more siloed than the web, for better or for worse
00:41:02 <Sgeo> They're less siloed on Android
00:41:13 <Sgeo> *than on iOS, I mean
00:41:15 <pikhq> But yeah. The Android "back" button is not obviously a "go up a level on the application heirarchy" button.
00:41:36 <elliott> well, my standard for unsiloed environments is, like, unix or smalltalk
00:41:42 <elliott> (mythical, never-really-existed unix, that is)
00:41:47 <pikhq> It's "kinda that web browser back button, only it sometimes decides to kick your expectations instead"
00:41:57 <pikhq> elliott: So, Plan 9 From Bell Labs unix?
00:42:00 <elliott> iOS is getting less silo-y over time, anyway
00:42:23 <elliott> pikhq: yeah sure. you probably have to use sam instead of acme to qualify too.
00:42:36 <pikhq> Won't disagree with that.
00:42:39 <elliott> unix philosophy was DOA :p
00:42:40 <Sgeo> Apparently it costs a bunch of money to develop an app that -isn't- meant for the general public on iOS
00:43:22 <Sgeo> https://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/enterprise/
00:43:53 <Sgeo> Oh, and need to be an actual company
00:44:00 <elliott> "a bunch of money" and enterprise in the URL, and it's $299/year?
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00:44:11 <pikhq> For an enterprise that's kinda a bargin.
00:44:13 <elliott> even $299/month would be cheap with the setup you gave that
00:44:36 <elliott> that's <$25/month, you could pay more than that on a VPS easily
00:44:52 <elliott> plus developing for iOS is $99/year to start with
00:44:59 <Sgeo> Ok, not expensive for a real enterprise. But... what if I want to make an app for just me and my friends
00:45:06 <pikhq> Trust me, even a fairly small business can afford that...
00:45:45 <elliott> Sgeo: well, is $99/yr acceptable for that to you but not $299/yr?
00:45:47 <pikhq> Also, for that if I really cared I'd just set up a quick (non-tax-exempt) non-profit for the purpose and have friends pay dues to cover the costs.
00:46:11 <pikhq> I mean sure it's more pain than it's really *worth*, but it's actually not a terribly difficult hoop.
00:46:14 <elliott> but, you can probably do something with this:
00:46:25 <elliott> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40154/how-do-you-beta-test-an-iphone-app
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00:46:40 <elliott> https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/IDEs/Conceptual/AppDistributionGuide/TestingYouriOSApp/TestingYouriOSApp.html
00:46:44 <pikhq> Believe it or not, but setting up some form of corporate entity is an afternoon's effort.
00:46:51 <elliott> https://developer.apple.com/app-store/Testflight/
00:48:33 <zzo38> On a 64-bit Linux computer, how long is a short integer?
00:50:07 <zzo38> But for some reason ZORKMID doesn't work on 64-bit Linux computers.
00:50:21 <pikhq> Also, you probably should use int16_t and uint16_t.
00:52:17 <zzo38> It works on Windows, and on Wine, but if compiled on a 64-bit Linux computer, it fails to understand any input.
00:54:35 * Sgeo looks at Nim(rod)
00:54:58 <Sgeo> I remember seeing it mocked (in here?) for ab a_b and aB being equivalent
00:55:24 <Sgeo> I guess that could make it hard to grep for things
00:56:43 <zzo38> This is the program: http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/interp/zorkmid.zip Do you think you can find the mistake? I think it might be in the "vocab_lookup" function?
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02:39:33 <Sgeo> "With parenthesis and semicolons (;) you can use statements where only an expression is allowed:"
02:39:46 <Sgeo> Not -quite- no statement/expression distinction, but seems close
02:46:36 <zzo38> I believe that in BLISS there is no statement/expression distinction at all; you can put statements anywhere an expression is expected.
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03:28:07 <zzo38> (Also in programming languages such as Forth you can easily put anything anywhere.)
03:49:18 <Sgeo> I guess I shouldn't look at iOS's lack of a back button as a feature. In theory, I think I could have an iOS like experience in that regard by just ignoring it. Unless there are apps that don't use an up button
03:50:51 <Sgeo> How does iOS handle default apps? Something saner than 'wipe out a chunk of your preferences to change your preferences'/
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04:07:15 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: IME, assume you want to use the Apple app forever until the end of time, unless none is provided and then be inconsistent or refused to work anyway.
04:08:01 <Sgeo> Oh, fantastic.
04:08:17 <J_Arcane> You still have to jailbreak just to change the default browser.
04:11:44 <J_Arcane> http://tldrwikipedia.tumblr.com/post/100524800108
04:25:38 <zzo38> Is it possible with CSS to put text where pictures belong?
04:41:14 <zzo38> Which picture formats support DPI to be specified inside of the picture file?
04:51:23 <Sgeo> Are there any mobile OSes that have sane default app resolution?
04:51:36 <Sgeo> Any OSes, for that matter?
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06:26:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think jpeg and png both support saving the dpi in the picture file, but most viewers will ignore that
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07:26:03 <Sgeo> Are either Ubuntu phone or Firefox phone likely to be interesting?
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07:30:16 <mroman> Taneb: You should read "Learn you a Burlesque for no good" then ;)
07:33:00 <blsqbot> "I have 340 non-special builtins!"
07:33:41 <mroman> elliott, Taneb: Burlesque is just about knowing the 340 builtins :)
07:33:47 <mroman> but the syntax is incredibly easy
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07:44:24 <elliott> that sounds a little boring :(
07:58:51 <mroman> `unicode FULLWIDTH GREATER
07:58:52 <HackEgo> U+FF1E FULLWIDTH GREATER-THAN SIGN \ UTF-8: ef bc 9e UTF-16BE: ff1e Decimal: ＞ \ ＞ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: <wide> 003E
08:10:31 <mroman> and it's somewhat related to Haskell
08:10:59 <mroman> i.e. builtins are mostly named after Haskell functions
08:11:15 <blsqbot> {{2 4 6 8 10} {1 3 5 7 9}}
08:12:57 <mroman> !blsq 10ro2co{p^?+}m[2co{p^?-}m[
08:12:57 <blsqbot> {4 4 ERROR: Burlesque: (.-) Invalid arguments! 19}
08:13:20 <mroman> !blsq 10ro2co{p^?+}m[2co
08:13:39 <mroman> !blsq 10ro2co{p^?+}m[2CO{p^?-}m[
08:19:46 <blsqbot> {5 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50}
08:20:47 <mroman> elliott: the interesting part is the golfing
08:21:01 <mroman> and some sideeffects of commands
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08:22:00 <mroman> (i.e. mo was never intended to be able to do that. It's just a side-effect of the way mo was implemented)
08:22:35 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:22:38 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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08:23:05 <mroman> elliott: It's multiples of
08:23:09 <mroman> but it returns an infinite list
08:23:13 <mroman> so you have to call take
08:23:19 <blsqbot> {4 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40}
08:24:30 <mroman> (the {"a" "bc"}mo thing is also a side-effect)
08:26:40 <mroman> That seems to be the word about Burlesque :)
08:27:47 <elliott> in J you can do 4 * 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 * 1 2 3 4 5, etc.
08:27:51 <elliott> I guess it doesn't do infinite arrays
08:27:56 <elliott> but in J it works for any number of dimensions
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08:29:13 <blsqbot> {144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1}
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08:29:40 <mroman> ^- sum of the first 10 fib numbers
08:30:19 <mroman> elliott: Burlesque has lazyness. That's kinda fun sometimes
08:31:15 <mroman> However, for people without Haskell background it might be hard to see what stuff breaks lazyness
08:31:47 <mroman> !blsq 1R@{?iJPp}m[10.+
08:32:08 <mroman> !blsq 1R@{?iJPp}m[10.+p/
08:32:08 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:32:30 <mroman> Pp pushes to the secondary stack
08:32:36 <mroman> and p/ performs a swap on the secondary stack
08:32:44 <mroman> 1R@ is an infinite list
08:33:08 <mroman> {?iJPp} pushes every number to the secondary stack
08:33:16 <mroman> which works fine as long as you don't access it
08:33:34 <mroman> but as soon as you acces the secondary stack it will loop forever
08:34:09 <mroman> !blsq 1R@{?iJPp}m[10.+p\{}#Sp\
08:34:16 <mroman> this on the other hand will work again
08:34:25 <mroman> since it doesn't require evaluing the secondary stack :)
08:34:46 <mroman> !blsq 1R@{?iJPp}m[10.+p\CL10.+#Sp\
08:34:52 <mroman> !blsq 1R@{?iJPp}m[10.+p\CL10.+#Sp\p/
08:34:52 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:35:24 <mroman> !blsq 1R@{?iJPp}m[10.+p\Cl10.+#Sp\p/
08:35:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:35:37 <mroman> CL/Cl might eval stuff
08:36:33 <elliott> in general the J model is very good for short code.
08:36:45 <elliott> how easy is a fold in burlesque
08:36:58 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5}{.+}r[
08:37:15 <mroman> if that's what you mean by fold
08:37:26 <elliott> ...if it's haskelly, shouldn't you know what a fold is? :p
08:37:31 <elliott> what does that use as the zero?
08:38:27 <mroman> it uses the first element in the list as initial value
08:39:11 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
08:40:01 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3 4 5{ien!}{.+}w!
08:40:01 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (w!) Invalid!
08:40:19 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (ie Invalid arguments!
08:40:24 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3 4 5{isn!}{.+}w!
08:40:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:40:36 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3 4 5{isn!}{.+}w!
08:40:37 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:40:43 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3 4 5{.+}{isn!}w!
08:40:43 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
08:40:57 <mroman> anyway. It's stack-based
08:41:50 <elliott> in J, fold is +/1 2 3. fwiw
08:41:55 <elliott> J also has forks which are very powerful for golfing
08:42:14 <elliott> for instance +/%# is a function to calculate the mean (of an arbitrary n-dimensional array)
08:42:34 <elliott> actually I think it might do fun things with higher-dimension things, like calculating the mean of each column
08:42:57 <elliott> the gloss there is "add fold divide length", basically
08:43:05 <mroman> Burlesque doesn't have that
08:43:13 <elliott> in other words, (f g h) x is f x g h x
08:43:20 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3} {4 5 6}}AV
08:43:26 <elliott> this comes in veeeeeeery handy when golfing since you can do things point-free
08:44:28 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}++
08:44:39 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}++pd
08:44:50 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}++pd6?/
08:45:30 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}PD
08:45:58 <mroman> PD calcs the product of lists in a list
08:46:35 <mroman> elliott: ^- that's the fun thing about Burlesque
08:47:15 <mroman> PD is defined as {pd}m[
08:47:27 <mroman> I.e. map pd over a list
08:47:34 <mroman> and pd is product for lists
08:47:40 <mroman> or toDouble for integers
08:48:26 <mroman> it's also toInt for doubles :)
08:49:22 <mroman> av is floor for Double
08:49:36 <mroman> which returns ceiling and floor
08:49:53 <fizzie> And digits for int, right.
08:50:18 <mroman> and convert a char to string
08:50:40 <elliott> why is pdf product for lists or toDouble for integers
08:50:47 <elliott> is there actually a reason or is it just for yucks
08:52:21 <mroman> elliott: There are two reasons
08:52:31 <mroman> a.) Maximize side-effects
08:53:06 <mroman> b.) historically I tried to not exceed >200 commands so I could map two char commands better to single char commands
08:53:19 <mroman> but I decided against having to use a hex editor to program burlesque
08:54:06 <mroman> elliott: A lot of builtins are defined by other other builtins
08:54:33 <mroman> mo is Defined as 1R@\/?*
08:54:48 <mroman> so the more stuff R@ and ?* do
08:54:54 <mroman> the more unintended side-effects mo has
08:57:01 <mroman> It's even got regexes for ints!
09:02:52 <fizzie> You wouldn't say that if you could see it.
09:06:01 <fizzie> mroman: By the way, something I've looked for once or twice without finding: is there a single command for going from {1 2 3 4 5} to 1 {2 3 4 5}?
09:07:51 <mroman> fizzie: l_ or g_ might do that
09:12:11 <mroman> unless you want the {2 3 4 5} on top
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09:12:52 <mroman> then g_j is the only way I can think of
09:12:58 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5}g_j#s
09:20:38 <fizzie> mroman: I don't remember which way I wanted them, but that's clearly better than something like J[-j-] I've used.
09:23:12 <mroman> g_ is defined as ^^-]\/[-\/
09:23:22 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4 5}^^-]\/[-\/#s
09:32:25 <mroman> elliott: fizzie submitted 45B of Burlesque for Belgian Numbers on anagol
09:38:46 <mroman> how do you know how many of recurring differences you need?
09:40:28 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.-) Invalid arguments!
09:40:43 <mroman> !blsq 108XX2CO{p^?-}w[
09:40:43 <blsqbot> {{1 0} ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments! {0 8}}
09:40:47 <mroman> !blsq 108XX2CO{p^?-}m[
09:40:52 <mroman> !blsq 108XX2CO{^p?-}m[
09:40:58 <mroman> !blsq 108XX2CO{^p?-ab}m[
09:42:34 <mroman> I don't know what recurring differences means
09:44:07 <mroman> how do you get 1,1,9,10,10 from 1,0,8?
09:44:30 <mroman> you start a sequence with 0
09:44:40 <mroman> 0,1 has certainly 1 as a difference
09:44:44 <mroman> but what has 10 as a difference?
09:44:45 <fizzie> 1-0 = 1, 1-1 = 0, 9-1 = 8, 10-9 = 1, 10-10 = 0, 18-10 = 8.
09:45:07 <fizzie> 0, 1, 1, 9, 10, 10, 18, ...; the differences between successive numbers are 1, 0, 8, 1, 0, 8, ...
09:45:55 <fizzie> I guess you could easily omit the zeros, since they don't really affect the result.
09:46:46 <mroman> !blsq 0{1.+}c!{0.+}c!{8.+}c!
09:46:48 <mroman> !blsq 0{1.+}c!{0.+}c!{8.+}c!#s
09:47:00 <mroman> !blsq 0{{1.+}c!{0.+}c!{8.+}c!}10E!#s
09:47:00 <blsqbot> {90 82 82 81 73 73 72 64 64 63 55 55 54 46 46 45 37 37 36 28 28 27 19 19 18 10 1
09:47:06 <mroman> !blsq 0{{1.+}c!{0.+}c!{8.+}c!}5E!#s
09:47:07 <blsqbot> {45 37 37 36 28 28 27 19 19 18 10 10 9 1 1 0}
09:55:18 <mroman> !blsq 0{{1 0 8}j?+-]}e!
09:55:23 <mroman> !blsq 0{{1 0 8}j?+-]}10E!
09:57:28 <mroman> fizzie: maybe cycle {1 0 8}
09:58:36 <mroman> !blsq 0{1 0 8}cy10.+Jx/#s
09:58:37 <blsqbot> {0 {1 0 8 1 0 8 1 0 8 1} {1 0 8 1 0 8 1 0 8 1}}
09:58:41 <fizzie> XXcy is what my thing is built on.
09:59:18 <mroman> XXcy and g_ to get the head
10:00:06 <fizzie> Well, I've got a while loop in there. It's relatively straightforward, and I'm sure one could nip off more bytes.
10:01:31 <fizzie> I have a 38B thing based on a q~] C! and )++ on the XXcy'd infinite list, but it takes over 6 seconds to run even on my own system, let alone on anagol.
10:02:44 <fizzie> !blsq 10roq~]10C!CL)++
10:02:44 <blsqbot> {0 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55}
10:02:49 <fizzie> Based on that kind of thing.
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10:48:29 <mroman> that might be slow for large lists, yes
10:49:28 <blsqbot> {{1 2 3 4 5 6 7} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10}}
10:50:00 <blsqbot> {{} {1} {1 2} {1 2 3} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4 5 6} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7} {1 2 3
10:50:24 <mroman> and that probably in a ro itself
10:50:54 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
10:50:58 <blsqbot> {{} {1} {1 2} {1 2 3} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4 5 6} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7} {1 2 3
10:51:04 <mroman> !blsq 1000roq~]1000C!#s
10:51:04 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
10:51:24 <mroman> !blsq 1000ro{1000ro++}m[#s
10:51:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
10:55:28 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.-) Invalid arguments!
10:55:34 <boily> !blsq 1234qwertyasdfzxcvCHICKEN###
10:55:34 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 29):
10:55:58 <blsqbot> {"" "C" "H" "CH" "I" "CI" "HI" "CHI" "C" "CC" "HC" "CHC" "IC" "CIC" "HIC" "CHIC"
10:56:24 <blsqbot> "HICKENICKENHCKENCKENHIKENIKENHKENKENHICENICENHCENCENHIENIENHENENHICKNICKNHCKNCK
10:56:43 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (pd) Invalid arguments!
10:56:49 <blsqbot> {"" "B" "O" "BO" "I" "BI" "OI" "BOI" "L" "BL" "OL" "BOL" "IL" "BIL" "OIL" "BOIL"
10:56:55 <blsqbot> "OILYILYOLYLYOIYIYOYYOILILOLLOIIOBOBIBIOBLBLOBLIBLIOBYBYOBYIBYIOBYLBYLOBYLIBYLIO
10:57:03 <blsqbot> {{"" ""} {"C" "B"} {"H" "O"} {"CH" "BO"} {"I" "I"} {"CI" "BI"} {"HI" "OI"} {"CHI
10:57:14 <AndoDaan> !blsq "CHICKEN"R@"BOILY"R@z[++
10:57:14 <blsqbot> {"" "" "C" "B" "H" "O" "CH" "BO" "I" "I" "CI" "BI" "HI" "OI" "CHI" "BOI" "C" "L"
10:57:18 <AndoDaan> !blsq "CHICKEN"R@"BOILY"R@z[++sh
10:57:18 <blsqbot> ["", "", "C", "B", "H", "O", "CH", "BO", "I", "I", "CI", "BI", "HI", "OI", "CHI"
10:57:23 <AndoDaan> !blsq "CHICKEN"R@"BOILY"R@z[++uN
10:57:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
10:57:25 <boily> ... what the fungot is going on...
10:57:26 <fungot> boily: mr president, i would underline, as does the ppe-de group. he said that the global fnord and biotechnological research. however, the responsibility of the french authorities, and in terms of institutional balance i believe there are no doubt several reasons for satisfaction which seem to be forgetting that enlargement, by their very nature difficult to implement sustainable development; for, with all the interested parti
10:58:46 <boily> I think oilyilyolylyoiyiyoyyoililolloiiobobibioblbloblibliobyobyobyibyiobylbylobylibylio may be the ultimate welcome of them all.
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11:10:16 <b_jonas> fungot, don't you hate it when reality contradicts a nice theory?
11:10:18 <fungot> b_jonas: i would thank the rapporteur for having been so bold as to take into account eastward enlargement, of course, my group broadly approves this report, wanted to be independent, no matter how willing i was to speak for, i have in mind the need for training. that is why the distributor is in a good and humane manner. i fully support the sky initiative. i believe that the principle of subsidiarity to which we belong. graham
11:12:45 <boily> eastward enlargement is a myth put forth by the sky initiative.
11:19:16 <fizzie> At least the distributor is in a good and humane manner.
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11:40:30 <fizzie> I wonder why I got a merge commit with no changes and one parent out of git. It was supposed to be a fast-forward thing.
11:42:07 <fizzie> "When the merge resolves as a fast-forward, only update the branch pointer, without creating a merge commit. This is the default behavior."
11:42:11 <fizzie> So I thought, but it didn't.
11:43:45 <fizzie> It even said "fast-forwarding to", but then made a commit anyway.
11:48:11 <b_jonas> fungot: can you tell who's lying?
11:48:12 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, this resolution commits all those states that would be more willing to give up his toys in order to adapt it to their advantage. what we must do that just yet because six member states and within the large groups, the first page of yesterday's ' fnord' who are insufficiently monitored. the euro is not just a notification process and once on monetary policy, which i mentioned in my own sector, must contrib
11:48:47 <fizzie> fungot: But I specifically wanted to *avoid* commits.
11:48:47 <fungot> fizzie: i would like to go and assess the effectiveness of these programmes believed they were acting correctly when they placed managers from large consultancy firms or external fund managers in the telecommunications sector. but i will give you a clear answer to. moreover, a question which has been mentioned by my friend mr nistic, on behalf of the european union
11:49:10 <b_jonas> fungot: please heat my food in the microwave for me.
11:49:11 <fungot> b_jonas: the vote today reflects parliament's views. to be fair to say that a particular deed is a crime, a great opportunity for the european union
11:54:59 <Taneb> Maybe git sucks and we all just use it because it has a shiny website
11:55:11 <mroman> fizzie: Did you specify --ff-only?
11:56:12 <mroman> My experience tells me that merging without --ff-only always creates a Merge commit
11:59:04 <fizzie> I didn't, because it hasn't used to do that for me.
12:05:10 <fizzie> (And the documentation is quite clear on --ff being the default, and --no-ff being the exception.)
12:05:42 <fizzie> (And --ff-only being just a --ff that also refuses when it wouldn't ff.)
12:11:11 <mroman> can you do git pull --rebase without messing things up?
12:11:25 <mroman> I know git rebase messses things up if it's a remote branch other people use as well
12:12:04 <fizzie> I've pushed this out already, so I think I'll just live with a dummy comment.
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12:50:28 <Guest48226> fizzie: git pull --rebase only rebases stuff not in the remote, I believe
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13:14:20 <b_jonas> fungot: why is this code like this?
13:14:21 <fungot> b_jonas: consideration by the council, gave us an assurance about these matters. the family is the most widespread of all substances, the commission will make every effort to try to clarify the scope of the directives or make the regime more complex. it lacks the legal instruments, as i know. where are we in favour of mr cabezn fnord report.
13:14:36 <b_jonas> wait, where's the "mr president," part?
13:15:03 <b_jonas> hehe, "clarify the scope of the directives or make the regime more complex"
13:16:48 <b_jonas> fungot: eat pickled onions
13:16:48 <fungot> b_jonas: i would just like to explain the situation, very briefly, madam president, those who are only waiting for this message on the basis of sex. the reason why communication strategies must be developed in lisbon and one in particular, my group did not vote in favour does not commit you to anything. however, before any signature of the comprehensive strategy to tackle the question of violence, and i say this coming from the
13:18:05 <b_jonas> fungot: s véred abbal új éren hesszebbe apiuk s meghel míg emmerát. a pul ágya mölte mint tevét ha agybán négy hiza motatvóniugrasra revénynmavtkzist kíktanynek melt s medőjbnekbim csal.
13:18:05 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, should we shoot and kill, when we began negotiations with the accession of ten new countries, that there is more to it than that.
13:18:48 <int-e> fungot: explain accession
13:18:49 <fungot> int-e: the menndez del valle is striving to do, but if we can symbolically add the date 11 march to 11 september. we worked well together. the commission is willing to work 18 hours a day in these toxic substances can be deposited in groundwater, but it must then be provided with the resources to fnord crops, allegedly drugs crops, and that structural and administrative measures to the member states.
13:18:54 <b_jonas> fungot: ok m ont tisseg vidnak sad oly s ürétvzs.
13:18:56 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i would like the council to adopt specific legislation in this way and to spoil this report. i hope that this new text is bound to happen to almost all the parliamentary delegations we were able to have olaf's report so that we can be proud of the german chemicals industry, which has not yet begun this programme of research should place us in a very difficult task and, excuse the fnord, essentially becaus
13:19:38 <b_jonas> fungot: igy il karátyám többényígy palász ha miskar únva évez mind combja ne csilvn baknan jígyelsotoitjel alaresztev mácsuségndedjet ölnepzlopott meg nászz.
13:19:39 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i was very happy to vote for the document on which parliament has not been used in them. if the matter is a threat to veto accession to the european parliament adopted directive 95/ 19/ ec, so that the currency is a tool for achieving the goal. we urge you to combine forces. european research funds continue to evolve in terms of the treaty.
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13:20:11 <b_jonas> fungot: más elvene hállatj.
13:20:12 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, rapporteur bowis started his explanatory statement. allow me to start by congratulating the prime minister to work together. nothing is fnord and, finally, one of the reasons why it did not receive them directly but via the industry, which is very sensitive to your concerns about social and fiscal law. this regulation on the reclassification of settlements under swaps arrangements and under forward rate a
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13:33:57 <fizzie> Shooting and killing: best starting point for the negotiations.
13:35:00 <fizzie> "the commission is willing to work 18 hours a day in these toxic substances --" that's dedication in politics
13:35:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: not if it's their politics itself that is releasing the toxic atmosphere
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13:36:48 <fizzie> fungot: Do you provide free legal advice?
13:36:49 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, i would like to mention a few of the points of difference which inevitably i have to say to them that it will give us new impetus and that then i would make special mention of the infringements of human rights and fundamental liberties, to strengthen the institutional capacity of the members of permanent committees should be reconsidered. the stark differences of opinion that exists in many of the promi
13:37:24 <b_jonas> so basically, he does provide it, but it's so cryptic you won't understand it
13:37:27 <oerjan> it's advice, no mention whether it's free
13:37:35 <b_jonas> fungot: do you provide information free legal advice?
13:37:36 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mr president-in-office of the council, mr president of the commission and the council must be aware that an agreement was not reached on this point have to convert old social spending methods into new economic and social consequences. obviously, it would be a much more appropriate subject for debate at this stage.
13:37:43 <int-e> fungot's advice is overpriced.
13:37:44 <fungot> int-e: although we agree with the council concerns on the influx of refugees into the community budget.
13:38:06 <fizzie> fungot: Is the institutional capacity of the members of permanent committees really so important that it trumps human rights and fundamental liberties?
13:38:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, during this century, transatlantic relations are currently going through this process. other interested parties, in terms not just of france, for example to work in difficult conditions.
13:38:11 <b_jonas> yeah, he even mtneions spending methods
13:39:54 <b_jonas> Áz imaz halom ót magat, hogy mele is larja vimtátal, te pararson hántogók tölte önni mondat grofalhik fungot nyegtelyntattkegré. Csők a tüsve s akad és míg erisen? Lekmely hatytákadsunk gozduszast haszohsnakja hűsny csak lyugszemsmént. Igaz soéo!
13:39:56 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, i do not think that the proposal on emissions trading. it is an interesting expression, because it is obviously not possible in conventional agriculture. i am very grateful to the rapporteur for a communication on 9 december, the commission continues, together with europol, have to reflect on the fact that it accepts this point of view of the amount requested in the motion for a resolution, the commiss
14:08:41 <b_jonas> fungot: what do these nine digit numbers my program prints means?
14:08:42 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i did not take account of the diversity in market structures and the plans that are now in a position to pontificate when it comes to questions such as access to asylum procedures and medical and social services for the citizens of the state, as long as we do that, for example, while mrs peijs has also indicated the need to change the more recent developments can also be explained by the fact that the ind
14:09:05 <b_jonas> oh, thanks. that makes it totally clear. but what do the first three digits mean then?
14:09:08 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mr president-in-office of the council will have to provide services with regard to the ability of all the nations of europe.
14:16:57 <b_jonas> fungot: so it's a... country code?
14:16:59 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, we are well aware that you have to realize that so far, which do not apply. that is only fair to subject farmers who participate in the world today, such as amendments nos 3 and 4 june 1999, whereas the outflow of direct investment, of which the questioner is no doubt that he is quite satisfied as to the first part of the debates was strengthened by this treaty, in the case of flowers. she dealt with this
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14:18:58 <b_jonas> quintopia: I'd still like a style based on the lolcat bible, based on http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul.txt which I scraped from http://www.lolcatbible.com/
14:19:52 <b_jonas> quintopia: http://www.lolcatbible.com/ claims "so far we have most of the Bible translated"
14:20:03 <b_jonas> it's a collaborative project, so if you want to do the rest, feel free
14:20:11 <b_jonas> fungot, do you speak kitty pidgen?
14:20:21 <b_jonas> fungot: do you speak kitty pidgen?
14:21:42 <b_jonas> what's with him? does he hate me now?
14:26:18 <oerjan> always fun to see people who don't remember how fungot works.
14:26:18 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, listening to romano prodi talk about political equality without finding the appropriate technical infrastructure for this network to be established at legislative level between the states in the eu.
14:27:27 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, you have heard about access but access is not what they are worth taking note of all opinions which reflect the anxieties and fears of our citizens or rather, i hope that with both this commission initiative must be taken into account in negotiating the various trade agreements which we have in the past.
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15:41:02 <mroman> Using a high level programming language with a microcontroller
15:46:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:47:05 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
15:47:28 <fungot> int-e: date: fri, 25 feb 92 02:52:43 est from: bw ok... try sending a note about how the patient lists " complain to them.
15:47:38 <FireFly> I never remember which wordsets work well and whic don't
15:47:44 <int-e> I guess that was something.
15:48:05 <FireFly> fungot: that's not terribly interesting
15:48:05 <fungot> FireFly: controls the glass store door that opens by itself when you run out of the
15:48:27 <int-e> fungot: the what? don't keep us hanging like that!
15:48:27 <fungot> int-e: piece ' o shite... unix can help here, unix ran away from home. better yet, aren't the system, i thought for a research scientist to provide system support person at somewhere, but
15:49:13 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
15:49:19 <mroman> fungot: That video sucked
15:49:20 <fungot> mroman: this looks pretty cool, i loved it. however, the bug with the ' spam' button next to grandma, they also changed it so.
15:49:51 <int-e> the bug with the 'spam' button next to grandma ... wow.
15:49:57 <int-e> I loathed that one.
15:50:01 <fungot> int-e: omfg... thats mazing! amazing!! lol i dribbled you will no doubt try to land and could not override the wrong mode selection. to an altitude of 100 feet
15:50:33 <int-e> incoherent, but much more readable than the sms thing
15:51:05 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
15:51:09 <fungot> mroman: letter 74. to w.h. flower. down, august 4, 1860 page 126.) may perhaps have been caused by some unknown deed :) violence.
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15:51:24 <fungot> mroman: column 1: name :) species. on/ other hand, do not trouble yourself about/ phallus, as i do to a certain extent acclimatised or adapted to a diversity :) climates. nature could effect, but it does not bear some part in a full-grown plant there can be little doubt that he did receive gave him much pleasure, as an aid to himself than to/ future, would probably receive from it in/ sand :)/ barrancas de s. gregorio) in/ grea
15:51:27 <Bike> fungot: what are your thoughts on gemmules?
15:51:27 <fungot> Bike: charles darwin to asa gray. down, november 11th 1859. these papers deserve careful study by any one bird fnord a general battle. " 7? 27.
15:51:29 <FireFly> Charles Darwin used smileys?
15:52:05 <mroman> shouldn't this read evilotion guy?
15:52:47 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
15:53:03 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think of the main page? should it be deleted?
15:53:04 <fungot> FireFly: no second cousin/ no once removed. --user:andreamimiandreamimi ( user talk:andreamimitalk) 21:05, 23 september 2008 ( utc) i am not sure what fnord common knowledge is supposed to be an advertisement for disfunction. but you never know). a graduate of harvard university ( m.a., 1929, b.d., 1931, fnord.
15:53:40 <fungot> int-e: i remove the breast cancer article's own gallery. what images in the gallery and i tried cutting it but it's impossible to cut and i don't think anyone from victoria would consider " shelbourne" either. they must have felt like there was way, way, way, way too much power. as a result of the proposal was ' ' '
15:53:56 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
15:54:06 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
15:54:13 <fungot> mroman: so in that, well enjoy pooping in it. all the dudes, they will!
15:54:40 <FireFly> fungot: you don't have to elaborate on that topic
15:54:40 <fungot> FireFly: t-rex, i have big news the other!', he though, ' that is a lot!
15:54:41 <fungot> int-e: i look forward to a gooey feeling beneath my feet! soon! soonish, anyway. hallowe'en is coming! witness a public display. problem solved!
15:54:57 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
15:55:03 <int-e> fungot: educate me
15:55:03 <fungot> int-e: 1) opens cassette tape, printer, because the editor will read 0, if the number 50 in floating point number.
15:55:05 <mroman> qwantz doesn't look that bad
15:55:14 <fungot> int-e: to keep them in order to add the start of basic. parameters are generally passed between the prompt that input is the one that advances the jiffy clock")
15:55:58 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
15:56:19 <fungot> FireFly: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you.
15:58:20 <fungot> int-e: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's th
15:59:18 <int-e> fungot should learn to keep things short and to the point
15:59:18 <fungot> int-e: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
16:02:50 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
16:02:59 <fungot> mroman: what's... happening to me? body... seized by some strange energy! and brian and i are going to hit the park and throw the frisbee around!
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16:10:02 <int-e> fungot: you're a comic strip now
16:10:03 <fungot> int-e: i just read that ion storm article on salon. were we too hard on those guys?
16:10:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa* qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:10:55 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
16:11:11 <Taneb> How many webcomics are in fungot? At least 4 by my count
16:11:12 <fungot> Taneb: the thing to understand is that the merch is very sick.
16:14:43 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
16:15:41 <int-e> fungot: pray tell us all about it
16:15:41 <fungot> int-e: fabian. if this be not cherish'd. i know you lacke not folly to commit them, haue abilitie enough to make
16:16:26 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
16:16:29 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
16:16:39 <int-e> fungot: what's that?
16:16:40 <fungot> int-e: in the case of the courts shall vacate the order of succession shall announce their recommendations within three days of it commits the class shall be detected and reported by the clerk of the
16:17:03 <int-e> Taneb: looks like 4
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17:24:53 <fungot> AndoDaan_: ( b) conflicts between rules with no provision exists for the specified players.
17:25:34 <fungot> AndoDaan_: ( l) final auction price is: ( a) there is a member of an organization is required to
17:34:00 <MDude> fungot: What do you know of grammar?
17:34:00 <fungot> MDude: ( vi) for an official report or the raffle. the recordkeepor and mintor for points and become the wisest, noblest, eldest, and said executor knew that the
17:37:24 <MDude> >pa not standing for Pennsylvania
17:37:28 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
17:38:14 <MDude> fungot: Any idea what I should work on next?
17:38:14 <fungot> MDude: current terms call for an original for your records.
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17:49:29 <fungot> FireFly: as we get the ", lehrer, james a. baker, the securities and exchange commission will not go....
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18:05:25 <shachaf> oerjan: There was a Mill talk in Trondheim today! Did you go?
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18:12:25 <fizzie> fungot: Where will the commission not go?
18:12:26 <fungot> fizzie: is the number of our current north american, continental and are therefore subject to the two option swaps) traded online. marriott.
18:13:15 <Jafet> I guess you'll need to book them a Hilton.
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18:24:57 <fungot> mroman: the service." " more equity would leave enough. i'll keep the originals of the schedule that the legislature that the capacity on any cycle.
18:25:04 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
18:25:12 <mroman> fungot: State your whish!
18:25:12 <fungot> mroman: so that leaves us, the dinosaurs spread fear and incontenience, along with t-rex! cut, cut! cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut! cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut! cut! cut, cut, cut! cut! cut, cut, cut! cut! cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut! cut, cut, cut, cut! cut, cut! cut, cut! cut! cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut! cut, cut, cut! cut! cut! cut, cut, cut! cut, cut! cut, cut, cut, cut! cut, cut! cut, cut, cut, c
18:25:23 <fungot> mroman: but i've got great names for everyone else's hypothetical sons! but so far it's been pretty much a fallacy as it is a way to convert states of being into plausible names, utahraptor?
18:25:35 <mroman> Who here has hypothetical sons?
18:26:23 <shachaf> fungot: whoa, sounds like you could use some cut elimination
18:26:23 <fungot> shachaf: and that is good, but now each of them has met their maker.
18:34:15 <b_jonas> fungot: Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook. much?
18:34:15 <fungot> b_jonas: so, hey, it was our table! if he's interested, he'll push it back to your side. the salt shaker over to their side, this means that, for all intents and purposes
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18:56:59 <fizzie> I find it hard not to think of dc as an esolang whenever I look at a "substantial" dc expression.
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18:59:32 <fizzie> I have somewhere a fungot language model dumper tool, I think.
18:59:32 <fungot> fizzie: it's a very tricky to sound natural, then you can't sleep at all, then you go demented and then you die, we're giving dinosaur comics to the marmaduke guy. sincerely, the man, you just wait! kids will be boarding the train to scarytowne at my first wedding is about to start it by calling everyone " my boy". how's that?
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19:02:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Linguine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40630 * Nthern * (+196) RFI
19:08:20 <fizzie> It was useful for looking at that sort of loops.
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19:28:30 <b_jonas> fungot: that's because dc is very bad for writing real programs, there are much better tools for that these days, so people only ever write esoteric programs in it
19:28:30 <fungot> b_jonas: it's a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? for instance, i've recently picked up a hobby, and it's been super great! i signed up for an english as a second language course.
19:28:42 <b_jonas> I can't tab-complete today
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19:36:15 <fizzie> I wrote my first dc golf attempt (though I know none of the tricks of the trade, so it's probably not really golfed) and it turned out very line-noisy.
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20:55:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40631 * MrDetonia * (+2070) Created page with "'''PZAB''' is an esoteric programming language created by Zac Herd in 2013. The idea was to create a language that forced the programmer to manipulate memory and registers on ..."
20:55:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * MrDetonia * uploaded "[[File:Machine.png]]"
20:56:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40633&oldid=40631 * MrDetonia * (-2)
20:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40634&oldid=40633 * MrDetonia * (+1052)
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21:06:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40635&oldid=40634 * MrDetonia * (+109)
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21:08:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40636&oldid=40635 * MrDetonia * (+13)
21:09:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40637&oldid=40636 * MrDetonia * (-2)
21:09:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40638&oldid=40637 * MrDetonia * (+3)
21:10:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40639&oldid=40638 * MrDetonia * (-2)
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21:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40640&oldid=40639 * MrDetonia * (+624)
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21:42:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40641&oldid=40640 * MrDetonia * (-113)
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21:46:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40642&oldid=40622 * MrDetonia * (+11) /* P */ Added my language "PZAB"
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21:53:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40643&oldid=40641 * MrDetonia * (-24)
22:02:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40644&oldid=40643 * MrDetonia * (+119) Added Categorisation
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22:08:25 <MrDetonia> Hey guys. I've just created a page for my language "PZAB". Would anyone care to take a look and tell me what they think? http://esolangs.org/wiki/PZAB
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22:19:55 <oerjan> MrDetonia: *grmbl* that's not how we define turing complete around these here parts.
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22:20:42 <oerjan> (you _must_ have unbounded memory somehow, no excuses)
22:21:05 <MrDetonia> oerjan: Awfully sorry sire' I wasn't sure if that was correct :P, feel free to remove it; or can you suggest a more suitable term?
22:21:35 <Jafet> Pretty ordinary esoteric language
22:21:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MrDetonia]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40645 * MrDetonia * (+471) Created page with "'''MrDetonia''' is Zac Herd, a programmer from the mystical land of England. <nowiki>---- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK -----</nowiki><br/> <nowiki>Version: 3.12</nowiki><br/> <nowi..."
22:22:03 <MDude> Bounded Linear Automoton?
22:22:23 <oerjan> we tend to use the term bounded-storage machine, which has an article. although that's more like an upper bound.
22:23:13 <MrDetonia> So.. upper-bounded-storage machine?
22:23:45 <MDude> No, an upper bound to the type of machine in that group.
22:24:17 <MDude> So regular bounding storage rabbits.
22:24:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40646&oldid=40644 * MrDetonia * (-119) /* Language Overview */ incorrect usage of Turing Complete
22:27:11 <MrDetonia> Okay, just read the BSM article on esolangs now. I think I understand why my VM falls into that category, thanks for pointing that out.
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22:28:04 <oerjan> what i mean by it being an upper bound, is that the exact amount you can compute depends on the bound and the power of your operations, so there is no such thing as a _universal_ bounded-storage machine which others can be equivalent to.
22:28:28 <oerjan> unlike with turing machines that are unbounded.
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22:30:09 <MrDetonia> Ahh okay. So without an 'unlimited' amount of memory it cannot be Turing-Complete?
22:30:28 <MrDetonia> Right. Thanks for explaining that.
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22:31:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40647&oldid=40646 * MrDetonia * (-2) Categorised as BSM
22:31:46 <int-e> of course you could make P0 unbounded
22:32:23 <MrDetonia> Well there would be no need, my language only addresses 256 bytes ('cells') of memory
22:33:44 <int-e> But you have +, so in principle you can have addresses larger than 255.
22:34:30 <int-e> It's probably a bad idea; addressing beyond 255 would then have a very Brainfuck-like feeling to it.
22:34:35 <MrDetonia> It's designed to wrap around at that point, so 255 becomes 0 again
22:35:33 <MrDetonia> I'm not sure why it was limited to 256 cells originally... I prefer it like that for some reason
22:35:53 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, has anybody played with the idea of addressing unbounded memory by having <> (decrement, increment address) and then a logical left (*2) and right (/2) shifts?
22:39:09 <MrDetonia> Anyways, I'm off for the night. Thanks for the help and tolerating my noob-ish-ness.
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22:40:30 <quintopia> what is a logical shift? i thought they were always bitwise
22:40:41 <oerjan> int-e: um you only need <> that's what brainfuck has
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22:41:20 <int-e> oerjan: I know, the idea would be to speed up the programs and perhaps allow for some interesting data structures without too many [>>>] style loops.
22:42:45 <oerjan> this would be sort of binary-tree like.
22:43:34 <oerjan> does that mean V counts?
22:44:03 <oerjan> it's not exactly the same but...
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22:46:03 <int-e> oerjan: that's close enough, yes.
22:49:16 <oerjan> quintopia: i think logical/arithmetic right shift is synonymous to unsigned/signed.
22:50:02 <oerjan> so whether the sign bit is zeroed or kept, in 2's complement
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22:50:37 <int-e> yeah. and I didn't want negative addresses (though I didn't say so), so there's no difference.
22:51:28 <oerjan> actually there is no difference if you have infinite number of bits, period
22:53:05 <oerjan> it's basically 2-adic numbers
22:53:46 <int-e> Hmm. Right, but it causes a few conceptual problems nonetheless to grasp that no bit is actually being shifted in.
22:54:18 <int-e> Hilbert's Hotel is not very intuitive.
22:54:35 <oerjan> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
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22:55:03 <oerjan> excuse me, another infinite contingent of guests arrived and the hotel is full, need some shuffling here
22:55:17 <int-e> oerjan: you have an infinity of bits in a row. a new bit arrives. how do you fit in into the row? now one of the bits leaves, how do you fill the gap?
22:55:33 <int-e> oerjan: infinitary intercal to the rescue!
22:56:01 <int-e> (implementing that could be ... interesting)
22:56:14 <Bike> -7 && 3 => 1, well, i give up
22:56:29 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘Data.Bits..&.’,
22:56:29 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Data.Bits’ at L.hs:63:1-16
22:56:29 <lambdabot> or ‘Test.QuickCheck.Property..&.’,
22:56:29 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste...
22:56:56 <oerjan> that's not a very helpful naming by quickcheck there
22:57:29 <oerjan> isn't Data.Bits a standard library these days
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22:57:46 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘Data.Bits..&.’,
22:57:46 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Data.Bits’ at L.hs:71:1-16
22:57:46 <lambdabot> or ‘Test.QuickCheck.Property..&.’,
22:57:46 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste...
22:57:56 <int-e> ohh, it's indirect.
22:58:04 * shachaf wonders which one came first.
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22:58:36 <Bike> huh, i think (-x)&x is the largest power of two factor of x? nifty
22:58:51 <int-e> oerjan: I managed to misplace the "hiding" keyword...
22:59:10 <int-e> any other surprises?
22:59:33 <Bike> oh i guess that probably makes sense with find first set implementatinos huh
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23:00:31 <int-e> what profunctors...
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23:01:38 <int-e> Bike: yes it is, very handy for extracting bits.
23:02:01 <Bike> er i guess that's last set
23:02:03 <Bike> you know what, whatever
23:02:08 <shachaf> Looj i'm typing on a phone ok
23:02:11 <Bike> i had a hard enough time with p-adics in knuth.
23:02:45 <int-e> knuth, which one, concrete mathematics?
23:02:54 <Bike> a long exercise in taocp2
23:03:59 <fizzie> Bike: The x&-x came up in golf recently, if that's not what you were referring to.
23:04:04 <oerjan> <Bike> huh, i think (-x)&x is the largest power of two factor of x? nifty <-- sadly the necessary import still kills that method for haskell in the recent golf.
23:04:46 <fizzie> It's the C solution everyone had; http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?A006520/fizzie_1413051908&c
23:04:50 <int-e> Bike: This? "A generalization of two's complement arithmetic, called "2-adic numbers," was introduced by K. Hensel in Crelle 127 (1904), 51--84"
23:05:03 <shachaf> speaking of balanced ternary, is it true that balanced ternary encoding of the reals is what's-it?
23:05:25 <shachaf> strongly normalizing or whatever you call it
23:05:40 <Bike> i think i've lost my copy :( it's a lengthy exercise/set of exercises right after the part on positional numeral systems
23:05:50 <Bike> write out the square root of seven and so on
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23:07:40 <oerjan> wtf does strongly normalizing mean for reals
23:07:45 <int-e> Bike: -7. yes. that's the one.
23:07:59 <Bike> i'm pretty sure it asks for square roots too
23:08:08 <Bike> or maybe just rationals...
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23:08:28 <int-e> shachaf: this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number
23:08:42 <shachaf> oerjan: unique representation of a real number, maybe?
23:08:52 <shachaf> i haven't read this book yet hth
23:09:05 <oerjan> shachaf: i sincerely doubt so.
23:09:18 <int-e> Bike: it asks for square roots, sqrt(-7) works; sqrt(7) apparently does not.
23:09:41 <oerjan> shachaf: 0.11111... is still going to be equal to 1.-1-1-1-1... i think
23:09:51 <int-e> shachaf: ok I don't know the concept. But in balanced ternary, 0.1111, what oerjan wrote.
23:10:15 <shachaf> ok, maybe I'll read this book and find out what's going on
23:10:23 <Bike> more like irrationals
23:10:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: See the fabulous redundant twins oerjan and int-e | BF Joust scoring poll: http://goo.gl/02KE0Y | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:10:42 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where @remember's are in majestic stereo!
23:10:53 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
23:11:01 <oerjan> huh the topic was more than a month old.
23:11:52 <int-e> (the original "stereo" quote was "Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in [something missing here?] stereo.", by Cale, who later got annoyed from being hilighted so often.)
23:13:02 <int-e> s/.something missing here../majestic/
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23:13:53 <Sgeo> http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/macbook-pro
23:14:46 <Sgeo> I faail to see how that 2.5k laptop is much better than my slightly over 1k laptop which has 16GB RAM, i7, and two 650Ms (Almost got two 750Ms but I couldn't find one that both had that and would arrive in days)
23:16:19 <int-e> It has an apple-shaped hole behind the display.
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23:22:06 <int-e> also soldered RAM, and a glued in battery, can't be cheap ;-)
23:23:00 <shachaf> "a_n...a_0.a_-1a_-2... with a_k in {0,1,1} is a name of x := sum_k=n^-infty a_k"
23:23:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Esoteric File Archive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40648&oldid=36609 * Oerjan * (-56) Move to out-of-date External resources section
23:24:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Esoteric File Archive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40649&oldid=40648 * Oerjan * (-15) /* External resources */ oops
23:24:17 <int-e> shachaf: I hope that's not a quote :)
23:24:26 <int-e> (well, not an accurate one)
23:24:46 <shachaf> In trying to figure out what it means.
23:25:23 <shachaf> 1 is a 1 with a line over it.
23:25:41 <int-e> I don't like "name", I'd prefer "representation". I expect the set is {0,1,-1}, and I hope there's a 3^k in the sum.
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23:25:55 <shachaf> But that sum doesn't make much sense to me.
23:26:21 <Sgeo> "The engineer who originally designed hierarchicals apparently had his forearm mounted on a track so that he could move it perfectly in a horizontal direction without any vertical component. Most of us, however, have our forarms mounted on a pivot we like to call our elbow."
23:26:24 <int-e> if there is no such 3^k then things are bad.
23:26:48 <shachaf> Maybe they just missed it.
23:28:36 <MDude> Just hold shit while drawing a line.
23:30:19 <Sgeo> To use a menu.
23:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40650&oldid=40519 * Oerjan * (+239) /* Your Esoteric File Archive mirror */ new section
23:36:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OrthINTERCAL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40651&oldid=40629 * Oerjan * (-32) /* External resources */ Template
23:36:35 <FireFly> Perhaps we ought to use radial menus rather than usual context menus
23:38:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40652&oldid=40628 * Oerjan * (+1) fmt
23:40:22 <int-e> Sgeo: I don't know about you; I move across the menu pane diagonally rather than vertically, then horizontally.
23:41:13 <int-e> it's still a very small target to aim for, which is nasty, but it's not nearly as bad as described there.
23:43:37 <int-e> otoh I run into real trouble with hierarchical menus suddenly appearing on the wrong side of a panel, which tends to happen near the right side of the screen.
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23:45:04 <MDude> Hierarchial menus would be less annoying if they only appeared when clicked on, and only went away when a special button for dismissing them was pressed.
23:45:17 <MDude> Or even just one of those.
23:47:01 <int-e> Funny, I wasn't conscious of the forced delays in popping up submenus...
23:47:07 <int-e> now that I am this is annoying :P
23:47:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: There was a Mill talk in Trondheim today! Did you go? <-- what's a Mill talk
23:47:45 <oerjan> i think john stuart is dead
23:49:39 <shachaf> imo some of their architectural decisions are on-topic in here
23:50:06 <oerjan> i think i can confidently say i was not there
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01:36:37 <FireFly> > iterate(tail.(`iterate`1).(!!))[1..] !!3 !!3
01:37:58 <FireFly> What was the naming scheme for neat obfuscated implementations of functions in lambdabot again?
01:40:53 <FireFly> I wonder if it has anything for ackermann
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02:31:24 <Bike> > iterate(tail.(`iterate`1).(!!))[1..]
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03:57:32 <Sgeo> I was hoping that Macs are only overpriced by a few hundred dollars, not over a thousand dollars
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04:59:08 <Sgeo> "Apple tends to view a broken implementation as better than the inclusion of something that could be viewed as an admission that their implementation isn’t perfect."
04:59:13 <Sgeo> http://aaronhildebrandt.com/blog/osx-an-exercise-in-bad-ui-design :(
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05:51:34 <Sgeo> http://www.clickhole.com/video/insane-speed-reader-tears-through-2500-word-warran-1198 I don't see the global OS X menu
05:51:53 <Sgeo> Web browser in fullscreen?
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05:55:45 <coppro> fact: I laughed at today's xkcd
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07:00:54 <mroman> @pl (\x y f g -> f $ (f x) `g` (f y))
07:00:54 <lambdabot> (ap (.) .) . (. flip id) . ap . ((flip . flip id) .) . flip id
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07:09:43 <mroman> @unpl (ap (.) .) . (. flip id) . ap . ((flip . flip id) .) . flip id
07:09:43 <lambdabot> (\ x az e -> return ((\ a b c -> a (b c)) e ((\ h -> return ((\ bf k l -> l (bf x) k) h ((\ g -> g az) h)) h) e)) e)
07:10:04 <mroman> the idea to produce obfuscated haskell code is
07:10:16 <mroman> unpl . pl . unpl pl . unpl pl $ x
07:10:32 <mroman> chances are it will blow up exponentially though.
07:11:46 <mroman> @pl (\ x az e -> return ((\ a b c -> a (b c)) e ((\ h -> return ((\ bf k l -> l (bf x) k) h ((\ g -> g az) h)) h) e)) e)
07:11:47 <lambdabot> flip flip id . ((ap . (return .) . ap (.)) .) . flip flip id . (liftM2 return .) . (. flip id) . ap . ((flip . flip id) .) . flip id
07:12:40 <mroman> <fungot> flip flip ap flip id liftM . return flip flip ap
07:12:40 <fungot> mroman: oh, but i was never going to. i was just wondering if you thought everyone wants!
07:13:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:13:31 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
07:13:43 <mroman> fungot: Did you see my latest committ
07:13:43 <fungot> mroman: if it's ( syntactically) long result2; long result3; was at the gateway of a region is glowing and burning, and no clear account. in c, it's dlopen(). if it's computable, it's compilable
07:13:56 <fizzie> @pl \f g (a,b) -> (f a, g b)
07:13:56 <lambdabot> flip flip snd . (ap .) . flip flip fst . ((.) .) . flip . (((.) . (,)) .)
07:14:02 <fizzie> (I was looking for that once.)
07:14:41 <fizzie> Some things it does notice:
07:14:43 <fizzie> @pl \(a,b) -> (f a, g b)
07:17:52 <Sgeo> I was about to complain about scrolling on Android, but pretty sure it's just this one app
07:21:49 <Lymia> After reading a lot of papers on the state of modern machine learning
07:22:18 <Lymia> I'm convinced that the technique used now is "Come up with a not-too clever algorithm, throw ungodly amounts of CPU time at it"
07:25:42 <fizzie> That's certainly the case for speech.
07:26:45 <fizzie> Or, well, I guess that depends on the definition of "not too clever".
07:27:58 <Lymia> Plain back-propergation on ginormous neural networks with ginormous amounts of processing power
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07:28:53 <fizzie> There's generally a RBM-based pretraining of the network.
07:30:34 <fizzie> But it is certainly true that people have been steadily dropping the handcrafted-over-the-years feature stuff (frequency axis warpings and MFCCs and such) in favour of simpler and simpler things, and just trusting that the network figures out the best feature representation.
07:30:51 <fizzie> A couple of people are even feeding in time domain signals, and raw FFT spectra are positively commonplace.
07:31:14 <fizzie> Also I guess there's some promising results from RNNs.
07:32:35 <Lymia> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.2745v1.pdf < One of the papers I've found. There's a lot of fancy stuff, but, the core algorithm still seems to be "back-propergation works, let's throw a bunch of CPU time at it"
07:33:49 <fizzie> If you have access to non-open-access journals, http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/MSP.2012.2205597 is a reasonably good (if already two years old) review of the state of the speech stuff.
07:34:35 <Lymia> Let's check my college
07:35:25 <fizzie> It's rather overview-y, since it's from Signal Processing Magazine, one of those glossy things.
07:36:39 <Lymia> Not in my college's library, unfortunely.
07:37:38 <fizzie> Well, http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/TASL.2011.2134090 is kind of one of the "major" papers that introduced the current standard speech approach.
07:38:57 <Lymia> Remind me in, like, 4 months when I change colleges!
07:39:11 <fizzie> Probably TASLP is not any more likely to be included.
07:39:12 <Lymia> I'm transfering to a bigger college that probably has better library access.
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07:40:13 <Lymia> My school doesn't seem to have many CS subscriptions period
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08:13:02 <mroman> !blsq "da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709"L[
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08:13:35 <mroman> !blsq "da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709"L[
08:24:13 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
08:24:29 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 8):
08:24:33 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 9):
08:24:35 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 10):
08:25:36 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
08:26:47 <Lymia> !blsq {}{\/{}\/[+\/vve!}vve!
08:27:08 <Lymia> !blsq {}{\/{}\/[+\/^^e!}^^e!
08:27:09 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
08:28:24 <mroman> !blsq {^^^^^^^^^^^^^^}^^{^^{{e!^^{}\/{{^^}.+\/e!}{}\/[+\/.+e!vvvv{}\/e!}}\/.+{}\/e!e!}\/{e!{}\/[+{.+\/e!}.+{}\/[+\/.+{}\/e!vv{}\/e!}{}\/[+\/.+.+e!vvvve!
08:28:24 <blsqbot> {^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^
08:28:40 <mroman> !blsq {^^^^^^}^^{^^{{e!^^{}\/{{^^}.+\/e!}{}\/[+\/.+e!vvvv{}\/e!}}\/.+{}\/e!e!}\/{e!{}\/[+{.+\/e!}.+{}\/[+\/.+{}\/e!vv{}\/e!}{}\/[+\/.+.+e!vvvve!
08:34:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40653&oldid=40590 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+143) Just added the one-line, no-comments version of the 'Hello, world!' program as an example.
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08:48:06 <mroman> I had a new idea for a Spacefish variant
08:48:25 <mroman> I.e. the tape is some 1D space
08:48:29 <mroman> and the cells are "masses"
08:49:06 <mroman> which experience gravitational pull and thus move on the tape
09:12:05 <Sgeo> Pretty sure it is an android issue
09:12:37 <Sgeo> I'll be happily scrolling something with my finger near the right edge of the screen. Suddenly, as my finger hits the little scrollbar thing, I start scrolling wildly on accident
09:14:50 <Sgeo> Is iOS... saner than that?
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09:26:31 <Sgeo> Apparently widgets just show up in the Notification Center. This makes me more likely to use widgets on iOS than Android, ironically enough
09:27:37 <Sgeo> "The walled garden is beginning to open up" yeah no ZDnet I do not think of the lack of sharing when I hear iOS walled garden
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10:06:14 <mroman> There should be UPDATE OR INSERT
10:07:12 <mroman> there's INSERT OR REPLACE?
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10:38:35 <Sgeo> "As a developer of Apps for the App Store you are bound by the terms of the Program License Agreement (PLA), Human Interface Guidelines (HIG), and any other licenses or contracts between you and Apple."
10:38:52 <Sgeo> The Human Interface Guidelines are... binding? That's ... certainly interesting but a bit alarming
10:38:59 <Sgeo> I shoudl be asleep
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10:44:08 <Sgeo> "Apps that do not use the MediaPlayer framework to access media in the Music Library will be rejected"
10:44:12 <Sgeo> That could be worded better
10:51:21 <AndoDaan> mroman: how would you advoid/manage the all devouring center blackhole that surely, probably, maybe, will form?
11:14:36 <mroman> obviously you can just use values 0 and 1
11:14:48 <mroman> and place them enough apart for gravity to not play a major role
11:14:54 <mroman> then you essentialy have binary brainfuck
11:16:00 <AndoDaan> maybe some non-determenism would add excitement. quantum spacefish.
11:16:14 <AndoDaan> virtual values popping in and out of nowhere.
11:17:17 <AndoDaan> maybe i should finish/make an esolang of my own, before I give sage tips...
11:21:36 <boily> fungot: do you know any good recipes for fried quantum spacefish?
11:21:36 <fungot> boily: ( that is, levinson went to kish, disappeared, had on your behalf of the commission. at the fnord door when clouds of the sky, sadly.)
11:22:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:22:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40654&oldid=40093 * B jonas * (+47) /* Implementation */
11:22:30 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
11:23:06 <AndoDaan> fungot: do you know any good recipes for fried quantum spacefish?
11:23:07 <fungot> AndoDaan: would would get to sigh read too much sigh ' cause you're only aged what you're in your car
11:24:39 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
11:24:50 <mroman> fungot: isn't that right?
11:24:50 <fungot> mroman: at the very least, " the first dude murdered, huh t-rex?! what a good son, a great name! ha ha, i was just chatting up god to this!
11:25:20 <fungot> AndoDaan: so! i intend to make all the news! world politics
11:25:32 <fungot> AndoDaan: as a man concerned, t-rex, that going shopping was your default activity?
11:25:52 <fungot> AndoDaan: is that... medicine? but, i mean, i know this guy! the books were probably a little petty and well, kids!
11:26:51 <AndoDaan> is the z80 language basically assembly code?
11:27:29 <boily> probably. you should ask zzo38.
11:27:59 <boily> @ask zzo38 if AndoDaan were to ask you about z80, would you say it be like it is, but it do?
11:28:42 <b_jonas> fungot: is this a dream or is it real?
11:28:42 <fungot> b_jonas: think of how far did you go" talk a lot, but they're always a good thing! stupid problems
11:29:33 <boily> fungot has absorbed the Spirit of Eliza.
11:29:33 <fungot> boily: never!! nobody but the guy who did it could make such a great dad. i think maybe i should throw her off in front of a computer i've got this magic feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my desk, and when my feelings box on my
11:30:24 <boily> yup. just as I thought. gaining sentence was too much for the poor fungot, and therapy trainwrecked it.
11:30:24 <fungot> boily: oh, but i was never going to. we're totally superior" after the fact. before the fact, you were like, " hey, i wonder if i've become one
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11:43:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MrDetonia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40655&oldid=40645 * MrDetonia * (+2)
12:00:04 <mroman> I'm scared to use sqlite
12:00:11 <mroman> so I just wrap all stuff in synchronized blocks
12:46:42 <mroman> AndoDaan: z80 isn't a language
12:47:08 <mroman> z80 is an 8bit microprocessor
12:47:25 <mroman> that, like most CPUs, has an instruction set
12:47:45 <mroman> technically if you find a C compiler that targets z80
12:47:53 <mroman> you can golf in C for z80 on anagol
12:48:01 <mroman> but hand-written assembly is probably shorter ;)
12:48:44 <mroman> mind you, golfing in z80 requires serious knowledge about z80 internals and its instruction set
12:49:51 <mroman> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?main/*yuko*_1280923558&z8b
12:50:13 <mroman> ^- and data is usally encoded in the instructions themselves and all sorts of dark secret magic is going on in z80 golfing :)
12:50:18 <AndoDaan> is the z80 special amongs microprocessors?
12:50:49 <mroman> It's a popular microprocessor
12:50:54 <mroman> or was a popular microprocessor
12:51:17 <mroman> but for more details... zzo38 knows lots of stuff about z80
12:51:36 <mroman> GameBoys used to have a z80 for example
12:51:43 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: and it's sort of an ancestor of the x86_64 we use today. some of the decisions that made sense back at z80 have carried over.
12:51:52 <mroman> or a z80-like processor
12:52:02 <b_jonas> and yes, it's also very popular
12:52:09 <paul2520> TI calculators (at least some of them) use a z80
12:52:50 <mroman> apparentely z80 is/was used for disk controllers as well
12:53:17 <mroman> "Breathalyzer equipment used by law enforcement agencies.[57]"
12:53:32 <mroman> ^- breathalyzers run on z80s too says WP
12:54:17 <b_jonas> and of course some old personal computers used the z80 too
12:54:25 <AndoDaan> it's still usefull for some to learn/know how to handle z80 then.
12:55:28 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: not very useful, only in the esoteric sense
12:56:27 <mroman> AndoDaan: maybe if you're an embedded systems developper
12:56:40 <AndoDaan> I don't think i am. lemme check.
12:56:45 <mroman> but as an embedded systems developer you never know what kind of weird cpu you'll be using next
12:57:17 <mroman> so perpare to study LOTS of manual pages
12:57:30 <mroman> about instruction set, hardware, how to communicate with the hardware
12:57:35 <mroman> cpu timing diagramms :)
12:57:35 <AndoDaan> that's all i do when programming.
12:58:06 <b_jonas> even if you're an embedded systems developer, you're more likely to use a more modern cpu
12:58:11 <AndoDaan> check manual, or lref, type a command, run, manual, type, run.
12:59:11 <AndoDaan> hmm. okay. thanks. I'm just broadening my horizons, seeing what takes my fancy.
12:59:46 <AndoDaan> like this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Almost_impossible_to_learn_and_apply_esoteric_programming_language
13:00:58 <AndoDaan> water-resistant code. so often overlooked.
13:01:40 <mroman> http://www.ise.pw.edu.pl/impuls/emisy/8051_um2.pdf
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13:07:01 <AndoDaan> the 8051 would be a good place to start getting aquainted with cpu s?
13:09:30 <mroman> that's probably a matter of "beleives"
13:09:46 <mroman> which is probably also a good place to start
13:11:45 <mroman> cpus are very different but still mostly similiar.
13:12:51 <mroman> you could also start with a more recent ARM processor
13:15:02 <mroman> you could also read 1000 pages of IA-32 manual
13:15:21 <AndoDaan> hmm... that doesn't sound like something I'd could do.
13:16:03 <mroman> It's probably easier to read 300 pages for some little microcontroller :)
13:16:19 <mroman> although they don't have paging
13:16:24 <mroman> and these neat features
13:16:43 <mroman> besides, IA32_64 is only 3.5k pages
13:17:18 <AndoDaan> wow. my manual, if i had one, wouldn't a tenth that long.
13:17:44 <AndoDaan> do they describe it at the atomic level?
13:18:34 <mroman> mind you IA32 is a freakishly complex architecture
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13:44:03 <int-e> sigh, why does "make 24" use × for multiplication...
13:47:02 <fizzie> Specifically to spite you.
13:47:29 <int-e> ...you'd think that reproducing a specific search order for the expressions would be bad enough.
13:48:17 <fizzie> It's an AndoDaan problem, I believe.
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13:49:48 <fizzie> (I was thinking of skipping it.)
13:53:21 <int-e> Me too. But I wouldn't let such considerations stop me from complaining first ;-)
14:02:45 <mroman> did AndoDaan create a new problem?
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14:04:55 <mroman> looks like a brute-force problem
14:05:54 <mroman> int-e: I think numbers within expressresions are just sorted
14:06:08 <mroman> from greatest to smallest
14:10:40 <int-e> Which is to say, I don't know.
14:12:13 <mroman> () stuff always sorts before other stuff I guess
14:12:34 <mroman> and multiple () () are sorted based on the greatest number
14:13:39 <mroman> at least so it appears
14:15:05 <mroman> It would be cool if you could submit a verification program (i.e. like a python script)
14:15:10 <mroman> rather than hardcoded testcases :)
14:15:32 <fizzie> The problem was discussed on #anagol.
14:16:13 <fizzie> The samples were from the website or something.
14:17:24 <mroman> he didn't have a reference implementation?
14:19:16 <int-e> there are some preferences in the link, but those hardly determine the solution uniquely.
14:19:49 <int-e> (but the preference for putting big numbers first does indeed appear there)
14:30:21 <ais523> incidentally, I was randomly looking at the preferences that various editors had to be chosen as the default editor on Debian
14:30:30 <ais523> Emacs had a preference of 0; nano of 40
14:30:39 <ais523> I have three versions of vim installed, with preferences of 10, 20, and 60
14:30:43 <ais523> most amusing was ed, at -100
14:30:51 <ais523> I didn't even know debian alternatives preferences /could/ go negative
14:31:30 <ais523> I guess this is some sort of intriguing editor wars argument
14:32:00 <ais523> (IME, vim makes no sense to go above nano as a /default/, given that this is what's chosen for users who haven't specifically customized; and it makes even less sense for vim preference to depend on which versions of vim are installed)
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14:38:35 <int-e> nano is so awful :/
14:39:27 <ais523> easier to use if you don't know what you're doing than emacs or vim
14:39:41 <ais523> and if you do know what you're doing, you probably know how to change the default for your account
14:39:54 <ais523> I have my nano set up with syntax highlighting, but I can't remember how
14:40:32 <mroman> The only thing I use in nano is ^X
14:40:52 <mroman> in case I accidentally start it
14:40:58 <int-e> Throwing people into nano is probably saner than throwing them into vim, at least it tells you how to quit :)
14:41:18 <mroman> If you know what ^X means
14:41:28 <int-e> it's displayed at the bottom
14:41:42 <int-e> at least for me. ^X Exit
14:41:56 <mroman> But typing ^X won't Exit
14:42:13 <int-e> ^J Justify --- now I remember wordstar, so I have a vague idea that it's not asking the editor to justify its existence ...
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14:42:30 <mroman> When I type ^ followed by X
14:42:34 <mroman> my screen just displays ^X
14:42:35 <int-e> mroman: oh you mean the Ctrl- thing., heh.
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14:42:55 <mroman> first time using nano I didn't know what ^X is supposed to tell me :)
14:44:29 <paul2520> from my .bashrc: alias nano='vim'
14:45:46 <int-e> so is there anything in those preferences that says that (11+11+2)*1 is better than 11*1+11+2?
14:45:50 <ais523> paul2520: that would do pretty much the opposite of what you want
14:47:18 <paul2520> I'm training myself to use vim instead of nano... so if I type 'nano', I want it to run vim instead
14:47:42 <ais523> in my case, I can use vim but not very efficiently
14:48:09 <paul2520> It's good to have a broad range of skills!
14:48:23 <ais523> emacs, gedit, nano, vim, kate, I've even used sed in emergency
14:48:43 <mroman> as soon as vim starts press i
14:48:50 <int-e> vim is good for simple search-edit-and-run tasks
14:48:55 <mroman> that's pretty much all I can do with vim
14:49:01 <int-e> beyond that I can't use it.
14:49:29 <int-e> mroman: you forgot ESC
14:52:18 <int-e> oh, after implementing the preferences, the output 13+12+12-13 is not even on my list anymore.
14:59:18 <Melvar> Hrm … does anyone know about unicode texs and/or what channel to ask about them in?
15:06:06 <paul2520> Melvar: #latex might be useful?
15:06:21 <paul2520> (or they might know where else to look)
15:07:51 <ais523> I know LyX has some sort of unicode TeX plugin that uses LuaTEX, IIRC
15:08:45 <Melvar> Well, now that I’ve had a better look, since both xelatex and lualatex exhibit the problem, it’s more likely this font that’s being used …
15:09:05 <coppro> you're just imagining it
15:10:09 <Melvar> Well wait, copypasting from the PDF also shows the problem, so it may not be the font.
15:11:04 <ais523> perhaps it's to do with the font encoding, that was a real pain for my thesis
15:11:18 <ais523> because it swapped out perfectly normal English letters with pretty arbitrary latin-1
15:11:36 <ais523> I eventually fixed that by changing relevant-looking settings at random until it worked
15:14:58 <Melvar> (The thing here is that I have ‘×’ and it comes out ‘»’.)
15:16:01 <ais523> sounds like it could well be a font encoding problem
15:16:04 <ais523> TeX font encoding is bizarre
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15:56:41 <Melvar> \usepackage{unicode-math} seems to do the thing.
16:02:35 <ais523> it's about finite-state type systems
16:02:52 <quintopia> how's life in the ivory tower treating you
16:03:54 <ais523> I'm getting lots of negative results, and apparently people don't like those, even though they're just as valid as positive results and possibly more useful, in that they stop you wasting your time
16:04:59 <ais523> anyway, I started out learning and working with the standard type systems for this sort of thing
16:05:06 <ais523> and then eventually discovered they were all wrong
16:05:46 <quintopia> i'm just wondering what keeps you going...i got the hell out as soon as i realized what it was doing to my health and sanity
16:07:37 <ais523> having the ability to get something published without having to mangle it to fit what journals want
16:07:50 <ais523> all the best references I've found have been phd theses
16:10:31 <quintopia> you do have to put a lot more effort into than a journal article tho
16:11:32 <paul2520> seems like anyone can publish to arXiv (http://arxiv.org/), though on the flip side, it's not peer reviewed
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16:12:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I have showed some friends your blog.
16:12:42 <Taneb> You should write more.
16:16:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, also I have someone you may like to brickbrain
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16:35:05 <lambdabot> LOWI 221620Z 24015KT 200V260 9999 -SHRA SCT010 SCT020 BKN030 04/02 Q1016 NOSIG
16:36:55 <ais523> hmm, UEFI got broken, and the break does escalation via Windows
16:37:13 <ais523> I am really pleased about this, whether the first exploit was via-Windows or via-Linux could have made a huge difference to the future of bootloaders
16:41:45 <coppro> and yes, definitely. It's very good that it came via Windows
16:42:18 <ais523> https://www.mitre.org/publications/technical-papers/presentation-extreme-privilege-escalation-on-windows-8uefi-systems
16:43:51 <ais523> I'm annoyed that this "BIOS" doesn't have a way to install new UEFI root keys (that I've found)
16:44:10 <ais523> I was planning to have fun writing a security chain that touched every executable on the entire system
16:44:23 <ais523> all the way from bootloader on
16:52:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, a first-year here
16:53:21 <Taneb> He wrote a brainfuck interpreter then thought the logical thing would be to add a command to swap the source and the data arrays
16:53:41 <Taneb> He has also written what sounded like a BF derivative called "Derpcode" (not the one on the wiki)
16:54:28 <Taneb> Anyway, I have a CS lab to not be in, and a house to be in
16:55:00 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braintwist already exists
16:55:15 <ais523> dating from 2005, apparently
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17:09:39 <ais523> elliott_: what was that a reply to?
17:09:46 <elliott_> you need to do module signing, disallow kexec, and probably a hundred other little things
17:10:02 <ais523> elliott_: oh, I didn't think it'd be easy
17:10:11 <ais523> and I didn't think I'd complete it
17:10:14 <elliott_> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/28746.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/9844.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html
17:10:31 <elliott_> ais523: ah, well, you could probably get paid for actually doing it :p
17:10:44 <ais523> modules are signed by distro maintainers already, though
17:11:25 <elliott_> yes but you must disable unsigned ones
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17:48:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40656&oldid=40600 * GermanyBoy * (+2327) /* SYCPOL */ new section
18:03:37 <fizzie> elliott_: By the way, I've provisionally accepted the London thing.
18:04:09 <fizzie> "Provisionally" meaning that I haven't yet seen the actual contract I'd be signing, but it's unlikely to be too offensive.
18:05:02 <elliott_> will you be doing exciting things?
18:05:30 <ais523> fizzie: I don't know, someone I know rejected a job over a contract a while back
18:05:52 <fizzie> ais523: I guess it's *possible*. Do you know why in particular?
18:06:13 <fizzie> elliott_: That's what they claim, but we'll see.
18:06:36 <ais523> yes, it was a teaching job that demanded exclusive IP rights on all the teaching material, also the right to delete it from the teacher's computer after the course had ended
18:06:56 <ais523> they claimed it was just standard boilerplate and couldn't see why people got upset
18:10:08 <fizzie> Mmm. Well, right. Both the UK and Germany things would have been approximately equally corporate-y. I suppose they might have had legal departments craft things vaguely like that.
18:11:06 <fizzie> Our local union kind of thing provides free legal advice to members, I'm hoping they'll have time to look through it for TRAPS and such.
18:14:55 <fizzie> When I applied for a job at the university the first time, it was still entirely a public institution (now it's foundationized or something), so they didn't do "employment contracts", they did "work orders" ("työsopimus" vs. "työmääräys") instead. I don't know the details.
18:15:27 <ais523> fizzie: I'm in the middle of a nethack-related conversation about spellbooks
18:15:39 <ais523> so had a pretty different interpretation of a trapped contract until I got my brain into the right gear
18:16:00 <fizzie> I don't think legal advice helps much against, say, a boulder trap.
18:16:10 <fizzie> Except perhaps for renumeration afterwards.
18:16:32 <fizzie> Remuneration. Enumeration. Difficult word.
18:16:48 <Slereah> Especially if you are scooby doo
18:16:53 <fizzie> Re-enumerate the device bus.
18:17:37 <ais523> fizzie: right, all the personal injury specialists would have a field day with rolling boulder traps
18:18:42 <fizzie> Very literally, I'm sure.
18:24:45 <AndoDaan> fizzie: i see you did your homework for the belgian number problem. you found mistakes on the oeis page for them, lol.
18:26:20 <fizzie> AndoDaan: The PlanetMath page, you mean? Yeah, my correction there isn't accepted yet, it seems.
18:27:13 <fizzie> I wouldn't have noticed the sequence IDs if it hadn't said "The first few Belgian-2 numbers are 4, --" which is obviously wrong.
18:28:04 <AndoDaan> I must have looked right over it when i made the problem. glad i picked the 0 belgian numbers.
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18:47:45 <J_Arcane> http://hackaday.com/2014/10/22/watch-that-windows-update-ftdi-drivers-are-killing-fake-chips/
18:53:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if that's literal bricking; "won't be acknowledged by Windows, Linux, or OS X" doesn't sound completely unrecoverable
18:53:59 <ais523> you could, say, have a Linux kernel module specifically to recognise it and undo the damage
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19:17:27 <fizzie> Yes, especially if it's really just the USB product ID field.
19:18:49 <fizzie> I have one very cheap USB-serial thing somewhere.
19:19:05 <fizzie> (It's for plugging a Garmin GPS to a computer.)
19:20:20 <fizzie> There's a TI ad on that page (presumably random) saying "Universities don't need to hack TI technology", promoting some sort of university free-access program. That's such a misuse of "hack".
19:21:50 <ais523> "we made it so that you don't have to hack our products to be able to hack them"
19:23:01 <lambdabot> EFHK 221850Z 06012KT CAVOK M04/M11 Q1027 NOSIG
19:23:24 <lambdabot> EGLL 221850Z 24008KT 9999 SCT032 12/08 Q1024 NOSIG
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19:26:54 <mroman> I'm tempted to create minilesque
19:27:03 <mroman> a de-bloated burlesque
19:29:41 <ais523> single-character or two-character commands?
19:32:39 <mroman> turns out I already started with that
19:38:55 <mroman> ais523: https://bitbucket.org/mroman_/mahou/overview
19:39:02 <mroman> ^- that's also a project of mine
19:39:09 <mroman> though, not closely related to Burlesque
19:43:21 <mroman> http://codepad.org/rGsi13sA
19:44:22 <mroman> don't ask me what the hell pushl/popl is
19:44:37 <elliott_> are there any girls aged between 10 to 18 who are an expert in that language
19:44:44 <elliott_> sorry, that joke is too terrible. I should have kept it to myself
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19:47:27 <mroman> also.. what girls/why girls?
19:47:35 <elliott_> because they'd be a... mahou shoujo
19:48:12 <mroman> is that "magic girlfriend"?
19:50:38 <mroman> it appears that pushl/popl push/pop to/from a different stack
19:51:04 <mroman> |:x is shorthand for "x" get-member
19:52:27 <mroman> newl appears to create an object on the secondary stack
19:52:45 <mroman> getl and setl are just get-property/set-property for secondary stack
19:53:09 <mroman> dell is popl followed by pop
19:54:31 <lambdabot> ESSA 221950Z 09005KT 9999 SCT045 02/M03 Q1023 NOSIG
19:54:43 <mroman> https://bitbucket.org/mroman_/mahou/issue/1/no-empty-list-literal
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20:14:46 <fizzie> FireFly: At least it's not M.
20:16:11 <fizzie> Forecast suggests something hovering around 0 tomorrow, and then it goes back up to +10, so maybe it's not quite yet time to switch from bicycling to bus.
20:16:14 <fizzie> (I am aware some people cycle to work the entire year, but personally I've stopped when water starts to freeze on the ground.)
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20:29:42 <mroman> if it counts as time I was working
20:30:21 <mroman> I might need 4h to 5h for one way :)
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20:41:19 <fizzie> 30 minutes here, which is approximately what it takes with public transportation.
20:41:35 <fizzie> (Just how long is your commute?)
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20:54:33 <mroman> then 12min with the tram
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21:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pulse207 * New user account
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22:45:38 <oerjan> hm i have a hunch lady selnikov is seeking whatever that key fits.
22:45:50 <oerjan> (and reading girl genius.)
22:47:52 <FreeFull> The book must be relevant somehow too
22:48:37 <oerjan> perhaps it explains what to do with what she'll find
22:48:43 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
22:48:59 * boily just remembered he's completely absolutely outrageously late on reading GG
22:49:08 <oerjan> boily: are you SPOOOKED by SPOOOILERS
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23:21:34 <int-e> oerjan: perhaps she's looking for that beast that Brother Ulm was so worried about.
23:26:55 <oerjan> well if that is the case, i suspect this won't end well for the lady.
23:32:09 <FreeFull> Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if she dies or ends up imprisoned
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23:38:30 <oerjan> although i am really expecting something more more plot-relevant, like a gadget related to time or dimension.
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23:41:25 <FreeFull> If Heterodynes know not to mess with something, you know it's something you shouldn't mess with either
23:41:43 <oerjan> if the time travel visions are supposed to happen accurately, they probably have to get to the geisterdamen world somehow.
23:42:05 <oerjan> although not before being reunited with gil.
23:42:14 <FreeFull> On the other hand, Agatha is the best Heterodyne
23:42:43 <oerjan> well time travel and stopping time isn't the same thing.
23:43:01 <FreeFull> What was it her ancestor was doing with time?
23:43:20 <FreeFull> Time travel is clearly more advanced
23:43:22 <oerjan> well indeed it wasn't accurately described
23:43:53 <FireFly> D'you think Selnikov will encounter Agatha and the others soon?
23:43:54 <oerjan> well i mean it's stopping time that seems to attract those extradimensional beings
23:43:55 <FreeFull> I bet it'll be Agatha who figures out how to save the city
23:44:25 <FreeFull> I imagine time portals attract those beings more, so you have to keep them open only for short amounts of time
23:45:06 <int-e> oerjan: No matter what she's looking for I don't see this ending well for Lady Selenikov in any case :)
23:45:06 <oerjan> the visions didn't imply anything about that.
23:45:10 <FreeFull> Future Agatha knows what she's doing, probably
23:46:03 <FreeFull> The extra-dimensional beings probably just don't like having distortions in their space time, so if you make the "distortion" natural, it should be ok
23:46:12 <FreeFull> Something like a huge time bubble is definitely the opposite
23:46:24 <FreeFull> No wonder such a gigantic being is coming over
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23:51:04 <oerjan> saving everybody is going to take some good timing, with that aging effect. especially for tarvek.
23:51:26 <oerjan> he cannot afford to age a half hour.
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23:53:51 <int-e> Tarvek, hmm. Was he shot by Martellus? So many things happened.
23:54:19 <oerjan> yes, with fast-working poison.
23:54:45 <oerjan> that dissolves the body.
23:55:47 <FreeFull> The aging thing has to be circumvented entirely
23:56:14 <FreeFull> Because otherwise everybody all the humans will die
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23:57:58 <oerjan> int-e: correction, it was a knife http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130531#.VEhEf5Vxljp
00:02:51 <Sgeo> What if Apple offered a tiered App Store. So that, say, there's a Tier 1, which iOS devices are on by default, and Tier 2, which supports things like custom home screens. Apps still need to pass review, and it's the review that decides the tier. The worst thing that hapenns if someone clicks through security is a slightly confusing experience. Maybe encouraging users to click through could be grounds for rejection
00:03:17 <Sgeo> There's no motivation for devs to just get lazy and send to tier 2, beccause they don't get that choice
00:03:49 <int-e> what problem is that supposed to solve?
00:04:14 <Sgeo> The problem where custom home screens etc. require jailbreaking
00:04:30 <Sgeo> + the problem that custom home screens can confuse users
00:04:38 <Sgeo> (without banning them)
00:06:28 <elliott_> why are either of those problems to apple?
00:06:37 <elliott_> they don't care about home screens. they'd rather they didn't exist at all
00:06:57 <elliott_> if you want a different homescreen you can... buy a different phone?
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00:07:53 <pikhq> You're proposing something that's very un-Apple.
00:08:27 <pikhq> This is about as much of an Apple idea as permitting clone Macs.
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00:08:41 <elliott_> I mean, if you don't agree with Apple's philosophies or priorities that's fine, but I'm not sure why you're puzzled that they follow them
00:08:54 <elliott_> and there's certainly a huge market for them as they are
00:10:27 <pikhq> It's important to remember that Apple really isn't trying to market a flexible, customizable device. They really are going with "any color you like as long it's black."
00:11:12 <elliott_> pikhq: tbh, they're loosening on that
00:11:17 <elliott_> you can install keyboards now!!
00:11:38 <elliott_> but I don't expect custom home screens, ever.
00:11:41 <pikhq> Yeah, and they did ship out ROMs for clone Macs back in the day. :)
00:12:08 <elliott_> well, iOS and OS X have both literally just added considerable shared machinery for secure extensions
00:12:29 <Sgeo> They pulled an app for using the Today screen to host app launching icons
00:12:50 <elliott_> I think it's a slight shift in philosophy, but I imagine there's a *practical* reason they didn't want them initially in addition to any philosophical ones: security
00:13:11 <pikhq> elliott_: Oh, certainly.
00:13:23 <elliott_> ...so they didn't bother even thinking about going to all the effort of sandboxing everything effectively until it actually seemed like it was high in demand/a good idea that they could execute well
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00:14:04 <pikhq> Sandboxing is a Hard Problem, and punting on it by making the lack of it irrelevant is a reasonable solution.
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00:14:28 <pikhq> Android seems to more have punted on it by declaring it not a problem. :P
00:16:56 <Sgeo> pikhq: is it just me, or does Android have a horrible scrolling experience. Sometimes I scroll with my finger near the right edge of the screen, and it will sometimes hit the scroll bar, causing the scrolling to go in the opposite direction from what I intended and very fast
00:17:01 <elliott_> yeah, Android is so free-for-all and open to customisation and I think it demonstrates pretty well why there are advantages to Apple's approach :p
00:17:01 <Sgeo> Does iOS do that or is it sane?
00:17:18 <elliott_> I don't think you can grip iOS scrollbars at all.
00:17:34 <elliott_> they're transient like OS X's and I don't think they're anything but visual.
00:17:40 <pikhq> elliott_: It actually makes the strengths and weaknesses of both approaches rather blatant.
00:17:42 <elliott_> well, it's kind of annoying when you want to scroll to the end.
00:17:43 <Sgeo> Is there a chance that Android will fix this soon?
00:18:06 <Sgeo> Or should I stop hoping for Android to get its act together
00:18:15 <elliott_> pikhq: yeah. but I still wouldn't wanted to have use Android at all until pretty recently, and even now...
00:18:32 <pikhq> Honestly, Android actually does get rather dramatically better with each release.
00:18:55 <elliott_> especially /early on/ I think iOS benefitted tremendously from focusing on getting things right without too much outside interference and gradually opening up
00:19:17 <elliott_> and Android played catch-up for a long time because they didn't have those priorities to start with
00:19:24 <pikhq> ... which is quite fortunate. The UI experience when they started made Gnome look intelligently designed.
00:19:54 <Sgeo> My phone from last year has a physical menu button
00:20:15 <pikhq> Android was also pretty hurt by pretty much redoing the basic conception of what it should be like not that long before release.
00:20:53 <pikhq> They pretty much redid giant chunks of the UI after iOS happened.
00:21:16 <pikhq> Cause they were trying to be a Blackberry killer. :)
00:21:56 <elliott_> wasn't gnome at version 2 when android came out?
00:22:04 <elliott_> gnome 2 was really inoffensive :p
00:22:26 <pikhq> KDE 4 had just release, too.
00:22:35 <pikhq> ... Which is a better comparison.
00:22:45 <pikhq> KDE 4 was a freaking clusterfuck.
00:23:36 <int-e> Sgeo: which android version is that, I don't see any scrollbars to interact with...
00:23:44 <elliott_> KDE 4 seems to have completely destroyed KDE's popularity
00:23:47 <elliott_> which is kind of amusing and sad
00:24:06 <elliott_> like people hated gnome 3 too but nobody ever talks about KDE any more except when they're noting that nobody takes about KDE any more
00:25:32 <pikhq> I wonder what in the world things are gonna look like in a few years. Gnome 3 seems to be taking GTK down with it.
00:25:57 <int-e> Sgeo: hmm. same here. there are scrollbar-like location indicators, but I don't remember seeing any scrollbar. (I just tried with a large image in Chrome)
00:26:40 <Sgeo> Try putting your thumb over the scrollbar-like indicator
00:26:56 <elliott_> pikhq: eh, I think gnome 3 is doing okay.
00:27:07 <Sgeo> Also, try Gmail instead of Chrome
00:27:15 <Sgeo> I had a harder time reproducing in Chrome
00:27:18 <elliott_> arguably everything but unity is doing badly because it's hard to compete with ubuntu's numbers, but...
00:27:36 <elliott_> (I also think gnome 3 isn't that bad honestly, but)
00:27:54 <Sgeo> (Pretty sure it's not Gmail specific because reddit is fun also does it, and it's usually where I ahve the most pain)
00:28:12 <pikhq> Isn't Mint bigger than Ubuntu these days? :)
00:28:15 <elliott_> Chrome probably draws its own like on every platform.
00:28:17 <int-e> I can't try gmail, all it does is ask for an account, not realizing that this is pointless when the tablet is offline.
00:28:23 <elliott_> pikhq: I seriously doubt that.
00:28:58 <pikhq> Oh, just #1 on DistroWatch. Which is the least scientific methodology.
00:29:00 <Sgeo> Are iPhone URL schemes akin to Android intents?
00:29:08 <elliott_> yeah, like most ubuntu users are gonna look at distrowatch ever
00:30:09 <Sgeo> int-e: try settings?
00:31:28 <int-e> Sgeo: same there, it indicates position but I can't interact with it.
00:31:49 <Sgeo> I'm not on stock Android, wonder if that's related
00:31:54 * Sgeo glares at Samsung
00:33:32 <elliott_> samsung do a bunch of terrible things to their android yes
00:34:25 <Sgeo> Including fudging with the scroll bars?
00:35:53 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TouchWiz
00:36:22 <elliott_> "Tizen (/ˈtaɪzɛn/) is an operating system based on the Linux kernel and the GNU C Library implementing the Linux API." what a weird opening sentence
00:39:43 <pikhq> "glibc" *points, laughs*
00:48:45 <lifthrasiir> I'm in contact with several Samsung people working on Tizen
00:50:17 <pikhq> "I envy the dead"?
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00:59:02 <tswett> Show that for all n ≥ 1, s(n) ≤ H_n + exp(H_n) log(H_n), where s(n) is the sum of divisors function and H_n is the nth harmonic number.
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01:08:58 <tswett> What does exp(H_n) look like, anyway?
01:09:15 <elliott_> lifthrasiir: I'm still anticipating
01:10:10 <Sgeo> What do they say? What do they say?
01:10:21 <Sgeo> About the acropolis
01:10:26 <Sgeo> Where the parthenon is?
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01:12:37 <lifthrasiir> not hard to guess, but something similar to "we are fucked up"
01:19:59 <oerjan> tswett: e*e^(1/2)*...*e^(1/n) hth
01:20:59 <tswett> And, of course, e^(1/n) = 1 + 1/n.
01:21:04 <tswett> For overwhelmingly large values of n.
01:21:26 <tswett> So exp(H_n) probably grows... something like linearly?
01:24:11 <oerjan> 1 + 1/2 + ... + 1/n is less than a constant away from int_0^n 1/x dx, iirc
01:24:46 <Sgeo> "On May 14, 2013, Cydia Substrate for the Android operating system was released.[24]"
01:26:50 * tswett > sequence_ . map print . (\x -> zipWith (-) (tail x) x) . map exp . scanl (+) 0 . map (1/) $ [1..100]
01:27:53 <boily> AAAAAAH! mapMs everywhere!
01:28:13 <oerjan> boily: are you afraid of haskell
01:29:03 <boily> no. shachaf gave me Applicative homework the other day, and I've been obsessing over it since then.
01:29:27 <oerjan> well that would be traverse, not mapM
01:29:43 <shachaf> oerjan: hey you can't give the answer away like that
01:30:01 <tswett> So what's 1.781072418?
01:30:05 <shachaf> Well, you aren't allowed to use traverse. You have to implement it on your own.
01:30:50 <tswett> e to the power of the Euler–Mascheroni constant, that's what it is.
01:31:48 <tswett> I wonder if there exists a constant k such that the statement is still true if you replace log(H_n) with k.
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02:01:13 <FreeFull> Hmm, as an approximation to logarithms?
02:04:20 <oerjan> i'm sure it must have other uses...
02:07:04 <tswett> Needless to say, log(H_n) grows very slowly.
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03:15:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tipforgame * New user account
03:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifa 15]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40657 * Tipforgame * (+5530) All About The Game Fifa 15
03:18:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Fifa 15]]": Spam: content was: "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia FIFA 15 is surely an soccer simulation video game that is generated by EA Canada and published by Electronic Arts. It..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Tipforgame|Tipforgame]]")
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03:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Tipforgame]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
03:21:33 <elliott_> oerjan: okay but this spam is kinda great
03:23:34 <oerjan> hm? it's based on wikipedia, clearly.
03:24:16 <oerjan> you mean the synonym replacements
03:28:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40658&oldid=40654 * Oerjan * (+46) /* Implementation */ There is no such thing as BANCStar
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03:50:41 <Sgeo> Someone's example of why they like jailbreaking: "iFile - File browser and file management"
03:50:54 <Sgeo> Apple disallows file browsers?
03:51:22 <Sgeo> I guess Apple wants people to have a no-need-to-deal-with-files experience. So they block things that break that
03:51:34 <Sgeo> I think Google wants a similar experience, but not so blocky ofc
03:56:08 <Sgeo> Nod32 thinks that www.jailbreakme.com is dangerous content
03:57:09 <Sgeo> Mind you, it is scary that a website was able to jailbreak
03:59:45 <MDude> The clear solution is to make file systems for phones based the captchalog system from Homestuck.
04:00:20 <Sgeo> "Method 2 : Get Cydia Icon on iOS 7 without Jailbreak" What... is the point of that?
04:00:43 <MDude> So you have stuff like phones that only store one file of each of a small number of hash values.
04:00:49 <Sgeo> "You will now see Cydia icon on your iPhone 5 home screen running iOS 7 . It does not jailbreak your device , but tricks someone into believing that you have a jailbroken phone ."
04:01:56 <MDude> Or everyhing in a stack/queue.
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04:09:48 <elliott_> MDude: sometimes I feel like real filesystems are approximately as painful to navigate.
04:12:39 <Sgeo> Feel like OSX and iOS are opposites
04:12:59 <Sgeo> FScript on OSX probably allows for a lot of tampering with apps, if I understand correctly (maybe I don't)
04:18:50 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Android comes with a file browser
04:31:45 <Sgeo> Would Apple allow the equivalent of Android's View Web Source app?
04:32:10 <Sgeo> "To get the source from the page you are currently viewing in the browser, you can now use the share feature from the menu and select View Web Source."
04:32:14 <Sgeo> Since it's not really 'sharing'
04:32:49 <Sgeo> http://www.imore.com/new-view-source-app-ios-8-lets-safari-users-view-source-code-web-sites
04:32:54 <Sgeo> Of course, it costs money
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05:28:17 <fizzie> "I want to acknowledge you that we have finally succeeded in getting your ATM VISA CARD worth’s of $3.5USD out of ECOWAS department --" over three dollars!
05:36:03 <elliott_> fizzie: btw, do those old computers actually boot?
05:38:51 <fizzie> elliott_: Yes. Though I might have to do something to them to remove any PERSONAL DATA.
05:39:09 <fizzie> elliott_: You can boot both over a LAN, if I remember correctly.
05:39:37 <elliott_> an actual network, just like sun always dreamed of
05:39:52 <fizzie> elliott_: The Sparc is a bit picky about it, you need a BOOTP server (it doesn't do DHCP) and the TFTP server for the kernel needs to be the same machine.
05:40:11 <elliott_> honestly I've never even done netbooting at all.
05:40:21 <fizzie> And the kernel it fetches over the net needs to have a particular name related to the hardware model.
05:40:32 <fizzie> There's OpenBSD $SOME_ANCIENT_VERSION installed on it at the moment.
05:40:55 <fizzie> The SGI box has an IRIX six point something of dubious legality on it, and I have no install media.
05:41:21 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection that you can run Linux on it, but it might have had a less than perfectly supported variant of the graphics framebuffer.
05:42:34 <fizzie> On the other hand, if you keep the IRIX it's just like in Jurassic Park.
05:43:23 <fizzie> There's also an external Sun SCSI box of maybe four two-gigabytes-or-so disks that I had hooked up to the Indy.
05:44:19 <elliott_> these machines are the kind of thing we need snapshot backups of actual physical objects fo
05:44:44 <fizzie> I think I had a SGI monitor for the Indy.
05:44:54 <fizzie> Though I'm not 100% sure on that.
05:46:04 <elliott_> have to use a CRT of appropriate vintage or it's cheating
05:46:40 <fizzie> I also have the feeling that both use the Sun "13W3" display interface, and I have somewhere a 13W3 -> 4xBNC cable that you can hook up to any CRT display that (a) has the "component"-style BNC inputs and (b) accepts a combined H/V sync instead of the VGA-style separate one.
05:47:31 <elliott_> getting these working is gonna cost me
05:47:40 <fizzie> The SGI box might've done sync-on-green instead. At least my old Samsung SyncMaster CRT happily supported both, and it was just a regular PC monitor, so it's not fancy.
05:47:47 <fizzie> You can run both over the serial console, but it's not as fancy.
05:47:50 <elliott_> I don't even own a single CRT.
05:48:07 <fizzie> I don't own one any more either. Except for that SGI monitor that I think I still have.
05:48:35 <fizzie> The Indy has a "webcam" attached to it, and does video input, since it was billed as a kind of a "multimedia" machine.
05:49:41 <fizzie> Oh, and it also accepts regular PS/2 keyboards and mice, if I'm not mistaken. The SparcStation doesn't, but I have a Sun Type X (where X is something from 3 to 5, probably 5) keyboard and mouse for it.
05:49:51 <fizzie> There's a labeled, physical compose key and all.
05:50:54 <fizzie> http://www.gibi.de/gibi/StuffForSale/Sun_Type5c_US+Unix-Keyboard_320-1234.JPG <- like this but not so pink.
05:51:15 <elliott_> aww. you should have gotten the pink keyboard.
05:51:33 <fizzie> It might be slightly yellow from age.
05:51:36 <elliott_> I like the mystery key to the left of F1
05:51:59 <elliott_> I also like how it looks ancient but has media keys
05:54:47 <fizzie> I don't remember what the mystery key is for.
05:55:09 <fizzie> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19683-01/806-4743/images/keyboard_a.tif.gif it's empty also in the official layout diagram
05:55:30 <elliott_> at least I know where the power key is
05:55:46 <fizzie> Separate "cut", "copy" and "paste" keys too.
05:55:54 <fizzie> And a big "help" one if you're feeling scared.
05:56:53 <elliott_> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=332
06:02:56 <fizzie> I grepped the logs for some specs. The Indy is model IP22 -- http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/IP22 -- and has the 150 MHz (!) MIPS R5000 CPU on it, along with 48 megs of RAM and GR3-XZ graphics (hardware-accelerated 3D!).
06:03:50 <elliott_> http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/File:SGI_Indy.jpg this is such a "early 2000s unix user" screenshot... photo
06:04:13 <elliott_> well I guess xdm can't do transparent
06:04:20 <fizzie> "This is my own Indy and the photo was taken by me, Sebastian Wenzler, Germany, 2004-12-05."
06:06:17 <elliott_> "Support of more than 384MB memory requires a 64-bit Linux kernel." um?
06:08:19 <fizzie> I think the R5000 has 64-bit registers, yes.
06:08:29 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure about that, though.
06:08:49 <fizzie> MIPS III variants certainly exist in both 32-bit and 64-bit versions.
06:09:14 <fizzie> "The R4000 series, released in 1991, extended the MIPS instruction set to a full 64-bit architecture, moved the FPU onto the main die to create a single-chip microprocessor, and operated at a radically high internal clock speed (it was introduced at 100 MHz). --"
06:09:41 <fizzie> "The R5000 FPU had more flexible single precision floating-point scheduling than the R4000, and as a result, R5000-based SGI Indys had much better graphics performance than similarly clocked R4400 Indys with the same graphics hardware."
06:09:53 <elliott_> that's kind of less than anywhere near 32 bits of address space.
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06:10:19 <fizzie> I don't know, but I'm sure there's a very good reason. Maybe it needs a linearly mapped copy of the physical memory for reason X, and... who knows.
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06:12:43 <fizzie> And the Sparc box is a SparcStation 5 -- http://www.obsolyte.com/sun_ss5/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARCstation_5 -- that at least originally had the 85 MHz µSPARC-II on it, but it's possible I got a 110 MHz variant motherboard from someone. And 32 megs of RAM.
06:13:01 <fizzie> It eats same sort of SIMMs you could stick in a PC, IIRC.
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06:13:27 <elliott_> upgrading retro hardware has always seemed like rather missing the point to me
06:14:20 <elliott_> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Sparcstack.jpg nice
06:14:25 <elliott_> good way to adjust your monitor height
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06:15:34 <fizzie> I don't have the slim CD-rom drive you can see in those pictures.
06:15:40 <fizzie> It might have the floppy drive, though.
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06:30:12 <elliott_> scounder: ...what do you have against couches, anyway?
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07:34:40 <elliott_> why is tar more common than cpio again?
07:40:14 <elliott_> okay, I guess the format is just better.
07:40:23 <elliott_> I guess that's why pax exists.
07:45:42 <elliott_> also "curl -L http://foo/bar.zip | bsdcpio -i" is cool
07:47:17 <elliott_> though weirdly, | bsdtar -xf - sets the permissions differently
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10:58:10 <Taneb> Help I think I want to use call/cc
10:59:37 <b_jonas> Taneb: on #esoteric, that's normal
10:59:59 <Taneb> I think I don't need it
11:00:12 <b_jonas> Taneb: in code with or without mutable data structures or mutable bindings?
11:00:59 <b_jonas> but not in unlambda, right? in unlambda, it's completely normal to use call/cc because the input primitives return crazy values
11:01:20 <boily> think of call/cc being like a dangerous poisonous deadly dynamic goto.
11:01:56 <b_jonas> Taneb: consider using call/ec instead if you can
11:02:08 <b_jonas> or maybe scheme r7rs exceptions
11:04:34 <fizzie> Whenever a ketchup company advertises that there are 2 kg of tomatoes in 1 kg of their ketchup, I can't help but think of the horrible implied energy releases.
11:04:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? it's water release, not energy release
11:05:00 <Taneb> elliott_, what does oleg say about call/cc?
11:05:20 <elliott_> that it needs to die, roughly :)
11:05:46 <elliott_> http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html
11:06:02 <b_jonas> of course! but this is #esoteric, where we embrace bad ideas
11:06:23 <Taneb> elliott_, makes sense
11:07:06 <boily> water is energy! coffee is made from water, and coffee has energy!
11:12:10 <fizzie> Taneb: Delimited continuations! (I know nothing about them, execpt that they're supposedly fancy, and shift/reset is involved.)
11:13:24 <fizzie> I guess elliott_'s link mentions the same thing.
11:14:24 <elliott_> fizzie: they're just continuations except instead of "rest of program" it's "up to the specified enclosing shift".
11:14:30 <elliott_> or reset. I forget which combinator is which.
11:15:39 <fizzie> That sounds suspiciously simple.
11:16:27 <elliott_> fizzie: for instance haskell's Cont is delimited continuations.
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11:17:54 <Taneb> I think I am not very good at Racket
11:18:13 <Taneb> I'm overcomplicating it for my level of skill by trying to do clever stuff I'm used to in Haskell
11:18:29 <Taneb> But because Haskell and Racket are such different languages I am confusing myself
11:18:59 <fizzie> So you're trying to write in Raskell (or possibly Hacket).
11:20:04 <Taneb> Yeah, except I'm not even using the extensions of Racket that would make this so much easier
11:41:53 <b_jonas> Taneb: right. that's like when I compiled to prolog such that the resulting program used nothing of the logic programming capabilities of prolog.
11:42:28 <b_jonas> but I had an excuse for that.
11:43:24 <mroman> fizzie: I meant to say 10min on foot, 11min with the tram, 5min on foot, 30min with the train, 10min on foot
11:43:38 <mroman> (internet here closes at about 23 o'clock)
11:44:52 <b_jonas> mroman: right. if only we could just travel once, then save a continuation or coroutine at home and one at the office and just context switch between them for free
11:46:23 <b_jonas> the time/memory tradeoff would be totally worth
11:48:32 <fizzie> The Internet is closed at night?
11:48:46 <fizzie> But that makes more sense, yes.
11:49:08 <mroman> fizzie: in the clinic yes.
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12:19:20 <fizzie> "Sounds like they'd be better of keeping it closed all the time." </badjoke>
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12:25:24 <mroman> are you annoyed by my presence?
12:26:36 <fizzie> <span xmlns:em="http://www.w3.org/2009/10/emotionml"><em:emotion category-set="http://www.w3.org/TR/emotion-voc/xml#everyday-categories" dimension-set="http://www.w3.org/TR/emotion-voc/xml#fsre-dimensions" appraisal-set="http://www.w3.org/TR/emotion-voc/xml#scherer-appraisals"><em:category name="disappointed" value="0.8" /><em:dimension name="potency" value="0.2" /><em:appraisal ...
12:26:42 <fizzie> ... name="agent-self" value="1.0" /></em:emotion> See, the Internet is bad for your mental health and... never mind.</span>
12:28:05 <fizzie> (If you don't read EmotionML, that's "mild disappointment caused by own action".)
12:31:58 <elliott_> IME the internet is the only thing that keeps your mental health going :p
12:33:35 <fizzie> I guess that might depend on which part of it you read/watch/listen/experience/consume/subsume.
12:35:31 <elliott_> trust me, it's difficult to find parts of the internet worse than being isolated from everything that interests you and everyone you care about in a mental health facility.
12:37:13 <b_jonas> I hope there are at least books too
12:39:51 <elliott_> well, not no: actually yes, it did close shortly afterwards
12:40:50 <fizzie> But what about the books? (I'm imagining the sort of book collection you sometimes see in a hotel lobby bookshelf, built by stuff left by tenants.)
12:43:04 <elliott_> it was an not exciting selection. but bringing in your own was ok. (bringing in anything that can access the internet was not: I had to smuggle my phone in.)
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12:45:00 <b_jonas> elliott_: can't you just pre-order and borrow books from a library every three weeks, like some old people here do because they have difficulty getting the books from the library in person?
12:46:01 <fizzie> I think my (wheelchair-bound) grandmother's food-and-other-home-assistance person used to also bring her library books.
12:46:36 <elliott_> I mean, I got to spend weekends at home rather soon after being admitted as an inpatient, mercifully. so book supply wasn't a problem. but social isolation isn't great (for me) even with nice books
12:46:43 <b_jonas> luckily my grandma isn't wheelchair-bound, but that's still not enough
12:46:53 <fizzie> Third floor, no elevator and a wheelchair was probably not the easiest combination.
12:48:30 <fizzie> (I think she spent at least two decades like that.)
12:49:35 <elliott_> (and lack of a computer really doesn't help when you're a 13 year old autistic kid who thinks about programming constantly :p)
12:51:32 <fizzie> I used to write C into a notebook with pen an paper when doing our traditional week-or-four visits to the no-electricity-or-anything summer cabin around that age. (Just to be clear, I'm not comparing my summer vacations to being in a mental health institute.)
12:52:27 <elliott_> well, Finnish summer is probably comparable.
13:20:39 <mroman> There's a whole book shelf here
13:21:31 <mroman> technically if you're well this would be a very good place to live
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14:04:21 <paul2520> fizzie: I try to remember to bring a notebook when I suspect I might not have access to a computer/Internet. Always good to write down code or project ideas.
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16:41:49 <Taneb> Haha! All the close parens
16:45:43 <fizzie> I have a piece of Scheme code (from a friend) that has maybe a twenty or so )s at the end -- and they're arranged to form a giant ASCII-art ")".
16:46:21 <Taneb> I only have 10 so far
16:46:32 <fizzie> I know a couple of systems support a thing like ] being strong enough to close all currently open (s up to the top level.
16:46:51 <fizzie> Personally I think it just looks too unbalanced that way.
16:47:13 <Taneb> That's kind of creepy
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17:05:47 <tromp> for balanced parentheses, see ioccc/2012/zeitak
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17:07:46 <rjmacready_> what do you think of this as an esolang (nevermind the name) https://github.com/fabriceleal/Multitasks, docs here: https://github.com/fabriceleal/Multitasks/wiki
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17:18:55 <int-e> Taneb: 10 is easily enough: http://sprunge.us/ebJN
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17:31:02 <fizzie> TIL: A very fancy Z80 golf trick.
17:32:48 <fizzie> "jr cc, skip; rst 38h; skip: ..." can be done one byte shorter by a single "jr !cc, $+1" (where cc and !cc are a pair of corresponding condition codes).
17:34:03 <fizzie> It conditionally jumps to the middle of the jr opcode-and-argument, and the argument is 0xff (because it's a signed 8-bit offset from the next instruction) which just so happens to be the single-byte rst 38h, leaving the instruction stream re-synchronized again.
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18:05:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40659&oldid=40612 * 204.154.122.227 * (+131) Added the JFlick interpreter
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18:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40660&oldid=40390 * 204.154.122.227 * (+131) JFlick Interpreter
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22:30:48 <ais523> many people are under the misconception that all IRC channels have continuous conversation all the time
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22:48:11 <brandonson> to be fair, there are some that come close
22:48:35 <ais523> even #ubuntu is silent for a few minutes sometimes, I've seen it happen
22:50:40 <brandonson> ais523: in the context of internet-based conversation, I'm not sure that matters. could've been a solar flare or something :p
22:51:08 <ais523> well I didn't try talking at the time
22:51:16 <ais523> but I probably could have done
23:02:09 <Sgeo> I assume Today widgets require less customization to use than Android widgets?
23:09:00 <olsner> widgets? are you making a weather widget or a clock widget?
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23:09:45 <Sgeo> I'm thinking about switching from Android to iOS
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23:16:23 <Taneb> Today I had a weird realisation
23:16:28 <Taneb> I look like a real person
23:18:10 <Taneb> Like, if I saw someone who looked like me, I wouldn't be surprised (assuming I didn't look like me?)
23:18:23 <boily> Sgeo: the motivation being?
23:18:44 <ais523> Taneb: most people look like people, though
23:18:50 <ais523> so you're hardly unusual, in that respect
23:18:59 <ais523> also, stop giving elliott_ information with which to accidentally recognise you
23:19:05 <oerjan> Taneb: you may be self-deluding http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyLookLikeUsNow
23:19:10 <olsner> Taneb: have you considered that you might actually *be* a real person?
23:19:10 <elliott_> I've seen Taneb's face multiple times
23:19:25 <Taneb> ais523, I'm not exactly private in what I look like
23:19:35 <Taneb> ais523, and, I don't know, it's weird
23:19:43 <elliott_> also I think me and Taneb have diverged sufficiently to significantly lower the existential risk posed by us meeting
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23:19:46 <boily> Taneb: you look like something that looks like Taneb.
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23:20:34 <Taneb> For a start, I am not in Hexham any more
23:20:57 <ais523> that'll help, at least
23:21:56 <Taneb> And I do not imagine elliott_ visiting York any time soon
23:23:55 <elliott_> hexham doesn't actually exist.
23:26:32 <elliott_> we just made it up as a long-running gag.
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23:36:07 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname mroman(use query)
23:37:09 <Taneb> oerjan, can I go on the please ask please tell lisst
23:37:25 <oerjan> sorry, but that's the default
23:38:48 <Sgeo> boily: constant UI frustration
23:42:32 <boily> how come? I am intrigued.
23:42:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: taneblist: not found
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23:46:17 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
23:47:56 <Sgeo> boily: the back button is total nonsense, the scroll bars ... I understand why they act the way they do, but it's accidentally a bad behavior (not sure if it's Android or Samsung's TouchWiz)
23:48:29 <oerjan> Taneb: i think it's been a while since we heard about you inventing something
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23:49:38 <boily> Sgeo: are you talking about the back button, or the back button, or the other back button? :P
23:50:05 <boily> I agree with there being so many different back buttons, but what about the scrollbars?
23:51:07 <Sgeo> In most apps, when I'm scrolling, I often touch the edge of the screen. Sometimes my finger collides with the scrollbar itself, and starts moving the scrollbar, resulting in very fast scrolling in the direction opposite of what I intended
23:51:43 <Taneb> oerjan, I have slipped somewhat
23:51:51 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
23:52:02 <boily> Sgeo: oh, indeed. that subtle alternative fast reverse scrollbar. I dread it.
23:52:24 <Taneb> My primary keyboard broke :(
23:53:24 <Taneb> This backup has a dodgy shift key
23:54:30 <boily> have you heard of our Lord the Mechanical Keyboard?
23:54:40 <Taneb> boily, my primary is mechanical
23:54:52 <Taneb> I think some food got stuck behind the w and e keys
23:55:00 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/keyboards/keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys/' wisdom/taneb
23:56:15 <boily> Taneb: pop the keys and wash them?
23:56:37 <Taneb> boily, I'm lazy but I'll do that eventurally
23:57:42 <boily> also, which model is it? what keys?
23:58:21 <Taneb> Don't know. The layout is UK qwerty
23:58:29 <Taneb> And it's about 13 years old
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01:29:55 <elliott> callforjudgement: is weboflies still a thing?
01:30:07 <callforjudgement> elliott: the code still exists; I haven't worked on it for ages
01:30:35 <callforjudgement> also, it's 32-bit and doesn't compile as 64-bit because it's so level, which isn't necessarily lethal but does make it rather harder to work on
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01:31:24 <elliott> I lost my copy of the code on an old hard drive (and it was probably an old version anyway) and could probably use learning some things from it now, would you mind giving me it again?
01:31:49 <ais523> just trying to figure out which of these files are it and which are other things, I need a src/ folder
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01:34:11 <ais523> hmm, one of the files here has uncertain copyright information
01:34:45 <ais523> it's the return values of the KDGKBENT ioctl for all possible arguments, determined experimentally
01:36:02 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's coming from some keyboard driver, for instance
01:36:05 <ais523> I'm busy looking up what it does to find out
01:36:06 <elliott> but gpl at worst, I suppose?
01:36:18 <ais523> at least, the reason I had to determine it experimentally was that I couldn't see any pattern
01:36:25 <ais523> and it was needed for programs to run
01:37:13 <ais523> the problem with ioctls is that they're almost undocumented
01:37:17 <ais523> you just get one line of info on each
01:37:24 <ais523> let me check the kernel source, see if that helps
01:38:45 <ais523> bleh, this always takes so long to decompress
01:40:44 <elliott> it sort of sounds like the kind of file that'd be very easy to generate...
01:40:51 <ais523> although it's nice to always have the source to your own kernel, exactly
01:41:23 <int-e> looks like fun. http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/tty/vt/keyboard.c#L1783
01:41:51 <ais523> ooh, I think I've found basically the same info in the Linux kernel
01:42:02 <ais523> drivers/tty/vt/defkeymap.c_shipped
01:42:30 <ais523> however, it's in a different format
01:42:53 <ais523> tell you what, I'll ship you weboflies without ktt.c, and you can work out how to generate it yourself if you need it
01:43:24 <ais523> the file can definitely be generated, that's how I got it in the first plcae
01:43:29 <ais523> actually, I should just ship you the generator, if I still have it
01:44:01 <ais523> wow, that's… an old version of aimake
01:45:02 <ais523> I seem to have part of it, but the rest was probably hand-edited in Emacs
01:45:42 <ais523> elliott: anyway, nethack4.org/pastebin/weboflies.c
01:45:49 <ais523> let me know when you have it
01:48:04 <ais523> you can't expect me to package it properly when I'm busy trying to figure out which files are which in a hurry
01:48:25 <ais523> really, whether a tar bombs or not should be a recipient-end setting rather than a sender-end setting, but it isn't, so sorry for setting it wrong
01:48:42 <elliott> yeah, I'm not actually mad
01:49:17 <ais523> when I sent violin to alt.lang.intercal, I went to a bunch of effort making sure that I didn't accidentally do anything wrong in the shar
01:49:26 <ais523> because apparently, screwing up a shar even slightly gets you flamed
01:49:35 <ais523> (this may not be true nowadays, but it was back when shar was written, apparently)
01:51:52 <ais523> it's a program for working out the effect of assignment statements in INTERCAL
01:51:58 <int-e> @google violin intercal
01:51:59 <lambdabot> http://www.theviolinsite.com/music_dictionary/interval.html
01:51:59 <lambdabot> Title: Interval - Music Dictionary
01:52:00 <ais523> this is incredibly nontrivial, and all known INTERCAL interps get it wrong
01:52:09 <ais523> anyway, see my recent post to alt.lang.intercal
01:52:18 <ais523> err, in the presence of operand overloading
01:52:19 <int-e> correcting "c" to "v" is so helpful! *admires google*
01:52:46 <int-e> @google violin "intercal"
01:52:47 <lambdabot> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/alt.lang.intercal
01:52:52 <ais523> anyway, I /finally/ managed to do addition in INTERCAL without any sort of loop, where the length of the program is O(1) on the number of bits
01:53:18 <ais523> and without using the standard library, and without an FFI
01:53:29 <elliott> hmm, I guess a 32-bit chroot is the easiest way to compile it
01:53:31 <ais523> the program doesn't actually /run/ yet because I haven't linked up C-INTERCAL to violin yet
01:53:57 <ais523> also, this is the first time I have ever written a single assignment statement that takes four minutes to run
01:54:25 <ais523> DO :1 <- '"?.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"'$'"&.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"' is the statement
01:54:42 <elliott> I bet weboflies would be a bit easier with the additional container features that've been added since
01:54:43 <ais523> but it's only so slow because I previously redefined :1: DO :2 <- :1/"'"'#65535$#65535'~'"'?"'"'V"'&.4$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$.9'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~'#32767$#1'"$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#65535'"$.4'~'#0$#65535'"$.9
01:54:54 <ais523> elliott: it uses most of the container features that existed at the time
01:55:15 <elliott> yeah. there are some more now though
01:55:34 <ais523> elliott: also, there's some debug code that makes my own homedir visible inside the container; you will probably have to remove it or at least change the username
01:55:47 <coppro> ais523: presumably once you integrate it with C-INTERCAL, if you try to do a reverse assignment which is impossible, you'll get an error like BROKEN INSTRUMENT
01:55:50 <elliott> I mainly want to learn things from it, but executing it would be convenient too
01:56:05 <ais523> coppro: the current error message is THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS DO NOT DISTORT THAT FAR or something like that
01:56:07 <elliott> it's a little sad how you need root
01:56:07 <ais523> but changing it might work
01:56:16 <elliott> for a program designed to do complete isolation
01:56:20 <coppro> ais523: that's a good one too
01:56:28 <coppro> ais523: but you should definitely refer to the name "violin" in at least one error
01:56:38 <ais523> yes, I get disappointed when people change error messages in INTERCAL, just because the new one is good
01:56:42 <ais523> but the old one is often good too
01:56:50 <ais523> e.g. PROGRAM HAS DISAPPEARED INTO THE BLACK LAGOON is great
01:56:59 <coppro> yeah, that is one of the more fantastic ones
01:57:06 <ais523> wait, no, that one wasn't a replacement
01:57:25 <ais523> I was thinking of THE NEXT STACK RUPTURES. ALL DIE! OH, THE EMBARRASSMENT
01:57:33 <ais523> which replaced PROGRAM ATTEMPTED TO EXIT WITHOUT ERROR MESSAGE
01:58:43 <ais523> (BLACK LAGOON is a NEXT stack overflow, RUPTURES is a NEXT stack underflow, you can't really blame me for getting them muddled)
01:59:50 <coppro> I love ERROR HANDLER PRINTED SOME SNIDE REMARK
02:00:05 <ais523> coppro: right; there's actually WARNING HANDLER PRINTED SNIDE REMARK too
02:00:28 <ais523> ERROR TYPE 621 ENCOUNTERED is fun too
02:00:41 <ais523> I documented it as "The compiler encountered error E621 (*note E621::)."
02:01:00 <ais523> although I also explained what situations cause it, after that, so as to not be completely recursively useless
02:01:21 <ais523> fwiw, my favourite out of the messages I personally wrote is YOU HAVE TOO MUCH ROPE TO HANG YOURSELF
02:05:01 <ais523> INTERCAL error messaging is an art, and I don't always succeed, it's pretty hard
02:05:23 <Bike> program attempted to exit without error message <-- good
02:06:01 <ais523> and it isn't used anywhere right now
02:06:18 <ais523> it'd be a decent replacement for PROGRAM FELL OFF THE END, actually
02:06:27 <ais523> but you have the usual problems with stdlib there
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02:12:06 <ais523> hmm… if you run off the end of an asm program, do you run into the start of libc?
02:12:17 <ais523> if you did, I'd imagine it would put up a big PLEASE KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING sign too
02:13:37 <Bike> do any static linkers actually do that, i wonder
02:14:19 <coppro> ais523: THIS SOFTWARE DOES NOT SUPPORT BACK DOORS
02:14:42 <ais523> coppro: well part of the problem is, it has to start with "DO" or "PLEASE"
02:16:38 <coppro> ais523: that was an error
02:16:50 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, could you achieve something like weboflies by just running linux in bochs or something?
02:16:56 <elliott> and patching out stuff like timers to be deterministic
02:17:39 <ais523> elliott: yes; actually, weboflies was originally a project to build something like /that/
02:17:57 <ais523> because I thought it'd be easier to get everything deterministic that way
02:18:27 <elliott> I'm not sure you were correct :)
02:18:41 <elliott> I'm not sure weboflies is easier than patching bochs
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02:19:14 <elliott> it's a little unnerving that it's so hard to provide completely reproducible computations...
02:20:36 <ais523> I may well have been wrong
02:27:39 <coppro> why are dolook and do_look different functions
02:27:47 <coppro> I really need to get clang refactoring set up
02:28:17 <ais523> coppro: in what? weboflies? if not, this is probably the wrong channel
02:28:38 <ais523> if NetHack 4, though, the answer is "the devteam are bad at naming things, and possibly didn't even realise there was a near-clash"
02:32:11 <elliott> ais523: btw, does weboflies have, like, a license?
02:32:23 <ais523> it's default-all-rights-reserved
02:32:47 <ais523> if you want to use some of the code in something else directly, or even to finish it and make it work, we could try to agree a license
02:33:05 <coppro> ais523: err, that was meant to be in #nethack4
02:33:40 * elliott nods. I'm mostly interested in seeing how certain things are done rather than lifting any code, I was mainly asking in terms of redistribution in case I wanted to talk about what it's doing with people I know
02:34:05 <elliott> wow, I forgot it does graphics
02:34:09 <ais523> well it was meant to be secret
02:34:23 <ais523> elliott: I actually got Battle for Wesnoth to load in it
02:34:29 <ais523> but never managed to actually provide input past that point
02:34:42 <ais523> then decided I should probably be working on getting X working inside rather than SDL's framebuffer support
02:34:44 <ais523> that's about where I stopped
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02:39:40 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I wonder how badly getrandom(2) breaks weboflies
02:40:16 <ais523> I'd make it return a constant
02:40:20 <ais523> or step through a lookup table in order
02:40:36 <ais523> I remember installing /dev/zero as /dev/null…
02:41:32 <pikhq> ais523: Maybe just it use a weboflies PRNG.
02:41:42 <ais523> pikhq: that would be the eventual solution
02:41:45 <Sgeo> Google is useless for weboflies
02:41:58 <ais523> although, getrandom and /dev/random are both intended for gathering seed entropy
02:41:59 <pikhq> ais523's brain is what we got.
02:42:08 <ais523> so returning zero constantly would probably have the intended result
02:42:26 <ais523> Sgeo: weboflies used to be called The Secret Project
02:42:31 <ais523> until #esoteric managed to coax its name out of me
02:43:03 <pikhq> getrandom can also be used for /dev/urandom access.
02:43:22 <Sgeo> What... is it, if I may ask? Something to make things deterministic?
02:43:40 <pikhq> Yes. It's intended as a TAS tool for Linux binaries.
02:44:09 <pikhq> Making it *really dang awesome*, if a bit frightening.
02:44:33 <Sgeo> TAS as in tool-assisted speedrun?
03:13:45 <Melvar> Funness I realized is possible just now:
03:14:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
03:15:17 <Melvar> (It miscolors too for some reason.)
03:52:41 <Sgeo> Oh, just a constructor name
03:59:15 <Sgeo> I love how the table listing Scala annotations and Java equivalent has scala.reflect.BeanProperty's equivalent as being... Design Pattern
04:04:30 <Sgeo> Scala unapply is basically pattern synonyms, right?
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05:07:27 <Sgeo> Apple's anti-jailbreak propaganda states that "Additionally, third-party apps that use the Apple Push Notification Service have had difficulty receiving notifications or received notifications that were intended for a different hacked device. "
05:07:49 <Sgeo> If notificat... oh, for a different -hacked- device. Was going to note that that kind of implies security is really bad
05:10:37 <Sgeo> https://discussions.apple.com/message/18740587
05:19:14 <Sgeo> Does Apple rely on manual review for security things that a normal OS would provide? e.g. restricting direct access to hardware?
05:20:09 <ais523> I doubt it, they may have some sort of review script
05:22:32 <Sgeo> I meant in terms of, using a review process instead of, say, rings at the OS level
05:22:53 <Sgeo> So that the device assumes that all code is fully trustworthy, and bad apps are blocked at the store level
05:23:11 <Sgeo> Which would make jailbreaking and using arbitrary apps more dangerous than using Android
05:23:40 <Sgeo> Reason I think of this is jailbreak
05:23:48 <Sgeo> http://www.computerworld.com/article/2491294/malware-vulnerabilities/the-pangu-jailbreak-for-ios-could-turn-into-a-sinister-attack.html
05:24:00 <Sgeo> "Apple thoroughly reviews applications in the App Store to make sure APIs that open up access to functions like a phone's microphone or camera aren't available. But those with special certificates can allow their applications to do anything."
05:24:18 <Sgeo> Could be inaccurate statement or me misinterpreting it
05:24:45 <Sgeo> But it makes it sound like the APIs are only restricted by the review process, not OS level functionality
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06:06:41 <elliott> Sgeo: iOS has pretty heavy sandboxing and security
06:06:57 <elliott> there's some official pdfs about it you can find
06:07:06 <elliott> (of course they will always paint the rosiest picture they can)
06:07:13 <elliott> (but it's definitely not "everything runs in ring 0")
06:09:31 <elliott> ps why are you trusting computerworld.com on technical operating system details
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06:22:45 <Sgeo> Does Cydia have separate sections for sandboxed and non-sandboxed apps?
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07:54:43 <elliott> callforjudgement: weboflies' syscall code is so horrific
07:55:13 <callforjudgement> (this isn't meant to contradict /or/ support what you're saying)
07:55:50 <callforjudgement> incidentally, the whole thing where I wind back the IP a fixed number of bytes, the Linux ABI for 86 actually specifically guarantees that that will work no matter what the syscall implementation used
07:57:25 <elliott> I should probably read KDGKBENT's source to find out what the arguments and return even are
08:21:17 <elliott> callforjudgement: heh, does ioctl_test have to be ran on an actual VT?
08:26:10 <elliott> callforjudgement: well, it's a VM
08:26:16 <elliott> I suppose I can log into the VM's console
08:26:41 <callforjudgement> elliott: oh, the problem is that the VM doesn't allow you to send control-alt-F1?
08:26:52 <elliott> no, just that I access it through ssh
08:31:55 <fizzie> I seem to have missed what was going on, but it sounds hacky.
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08:37:16 <fizzie> As in, are you building something in particular, or just playing around?
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08:39:15 <ais523> fizzie: he asked for weboflies source for some unknown reason
08:39:21 <ais523> and is now presumably trying to get it to work
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08:39:55 <fizzie> Unknown but nefarious reason.
08:43:34 <elliott> I've just had reproducible/deterministic stuff on the mind lately.
08:43:38 <elliott> it reminded me of weboflies.
08:43:43 <elliott> and I felt like reading it again.
08:46:57 <elliott> hmm, is there any way to attach an actual tty to a weboflies program? so you don't have to send everything keys entirely from the debug menu
08:47:09 <elliott> (but time is frozen between keypresess, while it's waiting, or such)
08:47:14 <elliott> if not, maybe I'll try and patch it in (badly)
08:47:33 <ais523> elliott: I was planning for that to be a wrapper around weboflies, eventually
08:51:54 <fizzie> Can't seem to mentally parse that as web-of-lies instead of web-o'-flies.
08:52:35 <fizzie> Fruit flies and webo flies.
08:52:46 <Sgeo> Oh look Scala's fixity rules are simpler than Haskells
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11:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40661&oldid=40659 * Rdebath * (-131) Undo revision 40659 not very notable yet (no firsts), by [[Special:Contributions/204.154.122.227|204.154.122.227]] ([[User talk:204.154.122.227|talk]])
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12:20:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TomPN * New user account
12:21:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40662 * TomPN * (+4016) Musical notes is an esoteric programming language invented by Tom Price-Nicholson in 2014.
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12:23:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40663&oldid=39452 * TomPN * (+58)
12:26:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40664&oldid=40642 * TomPN * (+20)
12:26:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40665&oldid=40662 * TomPN * (-2)
12:27:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40666&oldid=40665 * TomPN * (-11) /* Syntax */
12:27:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40667&oldid=40666 * TomPN * (-1) /* = Notes */
12:29:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40668&oldid=40667 * TomPN * (+16) /* Line functions */
12:34:58 <fizzie> Editing the Main Page like that seems rather unconventional.
12:36:39 <fizzie> ...especially for a brainfuck derivative...
12:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical-X]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40669&oldid=35550 * TomPN * (+67)
12:37:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40670&oldid=40663 * Ais523 * (-58) Undo revision 40663 by [[Special:Contributions/TomPN|TomPN]] ([[User talk:TomPN|talk]]): I don't think putting new esolangs on the Main Page like that is a good way to go about things
12:38:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Choon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40671&oldid=13383 * TomPN * (+60)
12:38:06 <callforjudgement> we could sensibly put a link to newpages on the main page, but recentchanges is probably better for the purpose given the nature of Esolang
12:38:55 <callforjudgement> I want to put {{wikify}} on it but that template doesn't exist on Esolang (and doesn't exist on Wikipedia either nowadays)
12:39:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40672&oldid=33629 * TomPN * (+65)
12:39:27 <callforjudgement> I'll let oerjan shout at the author, oerjan's good at shouting
12:40:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Timesig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40673&oldid=16288 * TomPN * (+65)
12:40:16 <fizzie> I'm somewhat dubious about putting extra "see also" sections to each and every music-themed language, but at least it's not Main Page.
12:40:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40674&oldid=40586 * Rdebath * (+1441) /* Performance Matrix */
12:40:47 <callforjudgement> adding them only one way is pretty like self-promotion, though
12:41:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40675&oldid=40516 * TomPN * (+59)
12:41:23 <fizzie> Category:Musical or something could exist, along the other "source format" ones.
12:41:28 <fizzie> I hadn't realized there's this many.
12:42:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40676 * Ais523 * (+495) /* Musical esolangs */ new section
12:44:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40677&oldid=39198 * Ais523 * (+573) /* Musical esolangs */ new section
12:45:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40678&oldid=40676 * Ais523 * (+383) actually, probably this should be a category
12:45:31 <fizzie> "This design feature [of allowing the Chunnel to be flooded on demand] did not override the concerns of both nations' military leaders, and other concerns about hordes of undesirable tourists who would disrupt English habits of living."
12:45:48 <fizzie> I guess drowning would have been a little too harsh even for tourists.
12:46:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40679&oldid=40668 * TomPN * (+115)
12:48:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40680&oldid=40677 * TomPN * (+71)
12:50:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40681&oldid=40679 * Ais523 * (+2) style edits, typo fixes, and make this a little less tragically underlinked; move the "please create an interpreter" request to [[Category:Unimplemented]] which mostly serves that purpose
12:50:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40682&oldid=40681 * TomPN * (+13) /* Staff and ledger lines */
12:51:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40683&oldid=40682 * TomPN * (-12) /* Staff and ledger lines */
12:52:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40684&oldid=40683 * Ais523 * (-204) /* A note from the author */ move copyright note to the talkpage, it's about the article rather than being about the language
12:52:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Musical notes]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40685 * Ais523 * (+394) move copyright note to the talkpage, it's about the article rather than being about the language
12:54:19 <fizzie> Hey, at least you can say it's different from BF.
12:54:52 <Taneb> callforjudgement, which one?
12:56:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40686&oldid=40684 * Ais523 * (+479) computational class; it bothers me how often people manage to make BF sub-TC by removing useful loops from it
12:57:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40687&oldid=40686 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ fix cat names
12:58:37 <callforjudgement> it's nowhere near as bad as ESME, but I find it rather more offensive
12:59:23 <callforjudgement> also, no accidentals rather limits the /musical/ possibilities
13:07:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40688&oldid=40687 * TomPN * (+120)
13:08:16 <quintopia> it's almost like the wiki is popular again
13:08:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40689&oldid=40688 * TomPN * (-408) /* Computational class */
13:09:41 <callforjudgement> hmm, I'm still remembering the way that C-INTERCAL has entirely different semantics for ¥ depending on whether it's encoded in UTF-8 or Latin-1
13:09:56 <callforjudgement> and this actually does the right thing in all known existing cases
13:13:12 <quintopia> what is ¥ even supposed to do again
13:13:25 <b_jonas> isn't it a replacement for the bookworm character
13:14:06 <b_jonas> I mean, it sort of looks like that
13:15:16 <callforjudgement> it's a bookworm character in CLC-INTERCAL (thus unary exclusive or), and a currency symbol in C-INTERCAL (thus mingle)
13:15:46 <callforjudgement> so C-INTERCAL just uses the CLC-INTERCAL interpretation if the input happens to be latin-1
13:15:52 <b_jonas> so they use the same character for two different purpose?
13:15:58 <b_jonas> how is the bookworm encoded then?
13:16:12 <callforjudgement> and C-INTERCAL bookworm is normally ?, although V backspace - is accepted
13:16:32 <b_jonas> isn't there some fancy unicode character equated with bookworm?
13:17:00 <b_jonas> or a proposal to add it a new unicode character for it?
13:17:06 <callforjudgement> an upside-down A might or might not be permitted, I'm not sure
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13:22:53 <b_jonas> there's ⊻ which some crazy people use as a sign for 'xor', and ⊽ which is used in APL for 'nor', and I think there's a nabla with either minus or tilde through it, but I don't know of an exact match
13:23:01 <b_jonas> if there isn't, one should be added to unicode
13:23:53 <callforjudgement> could someone else make a decision about whether it should be included or not?
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13:26:34 <callforjudgement> ooh, elliott's online and probably has the right opinion about this
13:26:51 <callforjudgement> first time I've come across what is probably a POV pusher on Esolang
13:28:00 <b_jonas> is this suppsoed to be some strange brainfuck variant described by someone who doesn't understand what he writes?
13:28:05 <b_jonas> I'm still trying to interpret the description
13:28:11 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: yes, and someone who deleted my section on the computational class
13:28:58 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: maybe you shouldn't care too much about that... there's already lots of useless esolangs out there
13:29:25 <callforjudgement> I don't care about the esolang being useless, that much (well, this one's offensively useless, but…)
13:29:26 <b_jonas> or it could be a work in progress or something
13:29:45 <callforjudgement> I care about the user actively making the page worse by deleting information about the language from it
13:29:56 <callforjudgement> knowing the computational class is often interesting with these languages
13:30:20 <callforjudgement> I'd like you to look at the revert of my edit, and unrevert it if you agree
13:30:29 <b_jonas> I'll try to understand the description first, as much as it's possible
13:30:40 <b_jonas> it's not a very clear description
13:30:54 <callforjudgement> basically, though, it's the subset of BF with <>+-., and ()* from BF Joust, only the ()* doesn't nest
13:31:09 <callforjudgement> oh, and you can RLE the <>+- with a separate mechanism from the ()*
13:33:28 <callforjudgement> meanwhile, I thought editing the link to the language onto the /Main Page/ of all pages was a bit much, but I just reverted that, rather than yelling
13:35:04 <b_jonas> um... is this description tries to call bf's data tape an “instruction tape”?
13:36:30 <b_jonas> maybe it's trying to mean that the data tape is the same as the number parts (the tenor) of the instruction tape, and is mutable,
13:36:50 <b_jonas> and so those numbers can be changed by the program and modify how instructions work?
13:37:03 <b_jonas> seems strange, and is probably not very workable, but still
13:37:16 <b_jonas> maybe there's a reason it's called that
13:37:30 <b_jonas> but I'm probably just overthinking this
13:37:46 <callforjudgement> I think you have a mental bias towards believing that the language can't possibly be that bad
13:37:59 <b_jonas> ok wait, there's another part I don't understand
13:38:10 <b_jonas> first he says “The pitch of the note determines its function, while the value of the note (crotchet, minim etc.) determines how many times the function occurs.”
13:38:12 <callforjudgement> I mean, a version of BF where each command had a repeat count based on the position of the matching tape element would actually be interesting
13:38:22 <b_jonas> then he talks about the notes in the tenor determining how many times the instruction occurs, or something
13:38:27 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: right, I just realised that contradicted the entirety of the rest of the page
13:39:14 <b_jonas> what if we say it's a work in progress because it's been created today, and wait for the author to fix the description
13:39:18 <b_jonas> maybe we should write him a msesage
13:39:22 <b_jonas> TomPN: can you hear us here?
13:39:22 <callforjudgement> this is veering dangerously close into [[Category:Shameful]] territory
13:39:30 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: I've already written two on the talk page, about other things
13:39:45 <callforjudgement> however, I consider linking to your language from the Main Page an indication that you consider it finished
13:40:24 <b_jonas> linking from the main page?
13:43:11 <b_jonas> that user seems seriously confused
13:44:17 <int-e> meh, *of course* on can cheat on tetration.
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13:50:51 <b_jonas> I hope this one can just be reverted on other pages and left alone on that one page about that “language”
13:50:58 <callforjudgement> doing that at Wikipedia would be mindbogglingly frowned on even though it doesn't violate the letter of any objective rules
13:51:30 <b_jonas> if he gets bored and leaves, we can just delete the page after two weeks
13:51:36 <callforjudgement> ideal situation would be if they got reverted four times by four different users
13:52:02 <b_jonas> could we just try to tell him that his description is nonsense and please try to make it clearer?
13:52:33 <callforjudgement> more diplomatic language would be nice unless you were really annoyed
13:52:46 <b_jonas> and tell him the three main reasons why it's unclear (the loop insns; tenor vs note length; the "instruction tape")
13:54:36 <b_jonas> no they're not, not if it claims to be a bf variant and has "([)" there. if they're useless loop structions, they at least need a note.
13:54:48 <b_jonas> "loops cannot be nested." just like that?
13:54:56 <b_jonas> then it doesn't even matter how they're controlled, right?
13:55:35 <b_jonas> with more powerful instructions, sure. in brainfuck, I think it doesn't. or does it?
13:56:13 <b_jonas> (otherwise you don't even need if)
13:57:43 <b_jonas> ok, anyway, someone should compose an, um, polite message to this user asking to clarify
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14:04:03 <int-e> oh, I missed that the loops amount the plain repetition.
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14:08:11 <ais523> that CC section would make them harder to miss
14:09:56 <int-e> that's what I read
14:10:06 <int-e> (as a diff. sigh.)
14:10:39 <ais523> I'd prefer it if someone not-me either reinstated it, or said it shouldn't be reinstated
14:10:52 <ais523> because I don't like to edit war without extra opinions
14:11:13 <int-e> I'm an IP address, I don't think me doing it would help :P
14:16:46 <ais523> and the other admins could also verify that
14:21:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I say, let's not revert that into the article, at least not verbatim, instead write to the author to ask for clarification
14:21:29 <ais523> are you going to write the message?
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14:24:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40690&oldid=40689 * TomPN * (+476)
14:24:50 <b_jonas> ah, he's still here, great
14:26:20 <b_jonas> oh no, it's getting weirder
14:27:31 <ais523> they removed the unusable for programming
14:27:40 <ais523> it still is, because it cannot add two user input values to each other
14:28:10 <b_jonas> ais523: could we find some category name that sounds more scientific than "unsuitable for programming"? because I could call any of those languages that require a double-exponential time to do anything "unsuitable for programming". or I could even call COBOL that.
14:28:44 <ais523> "unusable", not "unsuitable"
14:28:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40691&oldid=40690 * TomPN * (+1) /* Example program */
14:29:43 <ais523> this is basically analogous to the "minsky machine with only one counter" situation
14:29:49 <ais523> it has multiple tape elements, but you can't read any of them
14:29:55 <ais523> only add and subtract constants
14:30:14 <ais523> actually, it'd be pretty funny to write a new computational class section explaining that it /still/ isn't usable, and why
14:30:45 <b_jonas> ais523: well, I still don't understand the semantics, so I'm just trying to ask about that in a message I'm writing
14:31:00 <b_jonas> we can figure out how to insult the language and/or the author's intelligence later
14:31:11 <b_jonas> meh, no kidding, we're doing that already here
14:34:07 <int-e> Every Musical notes program performs a predetermined sequence of operations and terminates.
14:34:23 <ais523> well, I find figuring out computational class interesting
14:34:27 <ais523> and every page should have a section about it
14:34:33 <ais523> (or the "unknown" cat)
14:34:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40692&oldid=40678 * B jonas * (+1013) /* == Please clarify Mudaical notes */ new section
14:34:48 <ais523> in this case, it is known, but the author's reverting attempts to mention it
14:34:49 <int-e> I think the "computational class" term may not be applicable ;-)
14:34:59 <int-e> As there is no computation going on.
14:35:01 <ais523> "unusable"'s a class, right?
14:35:24 <ais523> at least this whole thing has given me /two/ esolang ideas
14:35:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40693&oldid=40685 * B jonas * (+208) /* Unclear description */ new section
14:36:07 <ais523> one is BF where the tape gives repeat counts for the corresponding program elements, and this is the only way to do conditionals (note: obviously, the tape must be bignum for this to have any chance of not being trivially sub-TC)
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14:36:37 <ais523> and the other is a language designed to start from the specification of BF on the wiki, and change the minimum number of words to make an entirely different language
14:37:13 <int-e> ais523: the first idea should give you the same power as primitve recursion.
14:37:19 <ais523> (defined as "any translation from that language to or from BF would more likely be via other languages than direct")
14:37:22 <int-e> (i.e., loop programs)
14:37:29 <b_jonas> I think that example program in that article is in a nonportable key signiture whose behaviour the standard doesn't describe.
14:38:02 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, that's one of the necessary requirements to be Esme, I think
14:38:15 <ais523> (i.e. "the example given doesn't fit the defined syntax for the language")
14:38:16 <b_jonas> ais523: and the third is to Artificial Evolution on Goat Napper to teach him new tricks
14:38:36 <ais523> b_jonas: that's an M:tG reference, right?
14:38:58 <ais523> I assume Artificial Evolution lets you rewrite "Goat" to any creature type, and thus gain control of any creature but The Nameless One?
14:39:34 <b_jonas> yes -- or alternately it lets you rewrite Goblin or Rogue which is booring
14:40:04 <ais523> what about Conspiracy, to make everything goats?
14:40:21 <b_jonas> I think Shields of Velis Vel is much simpler
14:40:31 <b_jonas> Conspiracy is sort of heavy
14:41:09 <ais523> SoVV only lasts for a turn
14:41:34 <b_jonas> or Amoeboid Changeling or Blades of Velis Vel (that one helps because you're going to attack with the goat) or Wings of Velis Vel
14:41:58 <b_jonas> sure, Conspiracy might work too
14:47:48 <b_jonas> but somehow I'm not sure just BF with the data tape overlapping with repetition counts could work. would you have enough time to manipulate the repeat counts?
14:52:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not sure either, that's why it's interesing
14:52:50 <b_jonas> we can repeat < and > too, not only [] right?
14:53:32 <b_jonas> so you could use < > sort of like you use fixed address instructions as indexed instructions by writing to their code
14:53:59 <b_jonas> you can like increment and decrement the count on all such instructions to move a virtual head
14:54:25 <b_jonas> hmm, might be as powerful as a multi-taped turing machine then
14:54:33 <b_jonas> but what's the semantics of [] in first place then?
14:54:48 <ais523> maybe we don't have [], but the entire program is in a loop
14:56:02 <ais523> if you can figure out how to program in it immediately
14:56:07 <ais523> it's not normally a very good esolang
14:56:16 <ais523> or, well, a good esolang changes the way you think
14:56:34 <b_jonas> but I prefer good non-eso langs that do that
14:56:50 <b_jonas> or good libraries in non-eso langs
14:57:28 <ais523> many of the mindbending ideas were pretty eso before they became mainstream
14:57:45 <ais523> I think Prolog is /still/ an esolang
14:57:49 <ais523> it fits most definitions
14:58:05 <b_jonas> yeah, but prolog at least has an easily programmable subset
14:58:41 <ais523> even so, trying to figure out how to do something in Prolog is far from obvious
14:58:59 <b_jonas> you can translate lambda expressions and ordinary non-mutable fixed-size cells to prolog in a mostly straightforward way
14:59:25 <b_jonas> (there's just two tricks you need to know, and one of those is really only needed for debugging)
14:59:45 <ais523> well, Prolog is basically like lambda calculus if you have call and univ
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15:00:47 <b_jonas> I say if you have call and ... whatever is that thing that copies a structure replacing variables with fresh ones, let me look it up
15:01:57 <b_jonas> yes, copy_term or fd_copy_term
15:03:58 <ais523> b_jonas: you use gprolog too?
15:04:16 <b_jonas> I don't really use any prolog, because I don't like the language
15:04:26 <b_jonas> but I ran at least sicstus and gprolog
15:13:30 <b_jonas> and swi prolog too I think
15:13:53 <ais523> swi's the most popular, as far as I know
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15:44:45 <fizzie> SWI was the Prolog of choice on our Prolog course.
15:46:15 <ais523> gprolog has a built-in integer sat solver, which is nice
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16:06:17 <tromp> have you used that solver?
16:06:24 <ais523> tromp: most definitely
16:06:40 <ais523> it has a tendency to blow up and take forever on complex input, but be very good on moderately simple input
16:06:46 <tromp> can you run it if i give you a simple problem?
16:07:46 <tromp> it's about 3 guys selling chickens
16:07:51 <int-e> Ohmygodmyeyeshelp! http://www.gprolog.org/manual/gprolog.html
16:08:15 <tromp> A has 10 chickens, B has 16, and C has 26
16:08:18 <ais523> int-e: ugh, I've been using the PDF
16:08:40 <ais523> tromp: go on, that's a pretty easy problem so far
16:08:49 <tromp> they sell some in the morning at price x/u, and some in the afternoon at y/u
16:09:13 <tromp> at the end of they day, they sold all chickens and each made 35u
16:09:30 <tromp> so: we have 0<=a<=10, etc.
16:09:33 <ais523> and x and y are integers?
16:09:44 <tromp> and ax+(10-a)y=35u etc...
16:09:59 <tromp> yes, that's why i added u
16:10:18 <ais523> well, the problem's parametric on u
16:10:25 <ais523> if it has a solution, it has a solution with u=1
16:10:27 <tromp> u is just another integer
16:10:55 <ais523> tromp: you said "each made 35u", did you mean "each made 35"?
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16:11:21 <tromp> they make 35$ selling at non-integer prices of x and y $
16:11:24 <ais523> also, this seems like the sort of problem the sat solver would be bad on, because u is unbounded
16:11:38 <ais523> tromp: right, in that case they each made 35, rather than each making 35u
16:11:41 <tromp> so i need to multiply by some u to make prices integer
16:12:03 <ais523> this is linear programming, not integer programming
16:12:14 <ais523> let me enter it and see what happens, I doubt it'll be solved in a reasonable time though
16:12:34 <Jafet> a, b and c are integers
16:12:35 <tromp> if you divide by u, the equation is a*x/u+(10-a)*y/u=35
16:12:45 <tromp> which allows the fractional dollar prices
16:13:17 <tromp> now all of a,b,c,x,y,u are integer
16:16:04 <ais523> tromp: it says that one solution is a=b=c=x=y=u=0
16:16:12 <ais523> let me demand that u is positive :-)
16:16:58 <ais523> now it's warning that it's discarding potential solutions due to running out of internal storage
16:17:15 <ais523> and saying it can't find any
16:17:41 * ais523 increases the maximum space
16:18:56 <int-e> unsurprisingly, yices is complaining that it's not a linear problem.
16:19:54 <tromp> this is not a particularly big problem:-)
16:20:09 <ais523> tromp: yes, but it's the sort of problem gprolog is bad at
16:20:19 <Jafet> I don't think SAT solvers are very good at diophantine problems
16:20:34 <ais523> it's currently pegging my CPU
16:20:49 <tromp> what sort is that? "small set of linear equations on integer vars" ?
16:20:54 <int-e> but to summarize, 35u = (x-y)(a+b+c) + 52y, 0<=a<=10, 0<=b<=16, 0<=c<=26, u>0, over the integers?
16:21:10 <ais523> tromp: it likes additions and subtractions much better than multiplications and divisions
16:21:15 <tromp> you can restrict it to a+7 <= b <= c-11
16:21:26 <ais523> also, adding additional restrictions rarely actually seems to help
16:21:32 <ais523> let me try that, though
16:21:40 <int-e> tromp: on paper I'd just turn a+b+c into a single variable.
16:22:10 <ais523> yes, isn't obviously helping
16:22:29 <int-e> tromp: wait, why can you assume that restriction?
16:22:56 <tromp> because A will need to sell more at the higher price y
16:25:14 <ais523> it's still running, hasn't got past U=1 yet
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16:26:28 <tromp> ok, so much for gprolog:(
16:26:49 <ais523> I get the feeling it's only good in very specific circumstances
16:27:22 <tromp> gprolog: for all your solving needs that dont include chickens
16:29:47 <ais523> tromp: as I said earlier, I failed to get it to work with my Bridge AI
16:29:58 <ais523> so I got it doing INTERCAL reverse assignments
16:30:26 <ais523> strangely enough, my addition took four minutes despite all the selects and mingles optimizing out
16:32:32 <fizzie> I think our constrained logic programming course used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECLiPSe or something.
16:32:42 <fizzie> I just remember it was very Prology.
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16:33:53 <int-e> Oh nice. Logical context is inconsistent. Use (reset) to reset.
16:34:16 <int-e> But that's with some pen&paper preparation.
16:35:36 <int-e> and a convenient mistake.
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16:43:58 <tromp> ok, let me try solve chickens with a Haskell one-liner
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16:44:52 <tromp> > [(a,b,c) | b<-[7..15],a<-[0..b-7],c<-[b+11..26],(b-a)*(16*c-26*b)==(c-b)*(10*b-16*a)]
16:48:25 <int-e> > [(a,b,c) | a > b && 5*a+3*c == 8*b]
16:48:56 <int-e> > [(a,b,c) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], a > b, 5*a+3*c == 8*b]
16:49:11 <int-e> > [(a,b,c) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], a < b, 5*a+3*c == 8*b]
16:49:13 <lambdabot> [(0,3,8),(0,6,16),(0,9,24),(1,4,9),(1,7,17),(1,10,25),(2,5,10),(2,8,18),(2,1...
16:50:02 <int-e> that will result in some negative prices, I guess.
16:50:07 <tromp> hmm, when i show the prices as well, the lower one is negative:(
16:50:11 <int-e> the former list is dual to yours
16:51:21 <tromp> > [(a,b,c,(35*(6+a-b))%(10*b-16*a),(35*(b-a))%(10*b-16*a)) | b<-[7..15],a<-[0..b-7],c<-[b+11..26],(b-a)*(16*c-26*b)==(c-b)*(10*b-16*a)]
16:51:22 <lambdabot> [(0,9,24,(-7) % 6,7 % 2),(1,10,25,(-5) % 4,15 % 4),(2,11,26,(-35) % 26,105 %...
16:51:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CHIQRSX9+]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40694&oldid=32999 * 67.78.57.11 * (+83)
16:52:07 <tromp> use more scrollback
16:52:29 <Jafet> It's the problem that is solved by the above code
16:53:29 <int-e> > [(a,b,c,x,y,10*y+a*(x-y),16*y+b*(x-y),26*y+c*(x-y)) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], a > b, 5*a+3*c == 8*b, let y = 5*(a-b), let x = y+30]
16:53:31 <lambdabot> [(8,5,0,45,15,390,390,390),(9,6,1,45,15,420,420,420),(10,7,2,45,15,450,450,4...
16:53:36 <paul2520> is there an explanation of the problem? I got that...
16:53:49 <int-e> tromp: no negative prices.
16:54:26 <int-e> > [(a,b,c) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], 5*a+3*c == 8*b, let y = 5*(a-b), let x = y+30, x*y > 0]
16:54:27 <lambdabot> [(0,9,24),(1,10,25),(2,11,26),(8,5,0),(9,6,1),(10,7,2)]
16:59:20 <int-e> But it's a problem that requires some symbolic computation; the usual bit-blasting and linear arithmetic based approaches will not do well.
16:59:23 <tromp> i should allow 10-a = 16-b
16:59:39 <tromp> A can seel same number as B at higher price
16:59:51 <tromp> just make lower price 0 (give chickens away)
17:00:01 <int-e> > [(a,b,c) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], 5*a+3*c == 8*b, let y = 5*(a-b), let x = y+30, x*y >= 0]
17:00:04 <lambdabot> [(0,0,0),(0,6,16),(0,9,24),(1,1,1),(1,7,17),(1,10,25),(2,2,2),(2,8,18),(2,11...
17:00:16 <int-e> > length [(a,b,c) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], 5*a+3*c == 8*b, let y = 5*(a-b), let x = y+30, x*y >= 0]
17:00:25 <int-e> > length [(a,b,c) | a<-[0..10], b<-[0..16], c<-[0..26], 5*a+3*c == 8*b, let y = 5*(a-b), let x = y+30]
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17:00:58 <int-e> so 11 solutions with negative prices, and 22 where the lower price is 0, and 6 "proper" ones.
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17:01:39 <int-e> and we can assume that the intended solution doesn't allow a=0 or a=10, because then A would not sell any chickens in the morning or in the afternoon.
17:03:42 <int-e> but deriving 5*(a-b) = 3*(b-c) (if u != 0), which lies at the heart of the problem, is beyond automatic tools, I think.
17:04:19 <b_jonas> by the way, I was doing computer hardware stuff yesterday. trivial computer hardware stuff of course, because I don't dare touching anything more serious.
17:05:07 <b_jonas> I decided that the hard disks in my home computer might not like the heat they get because they're placed without gaps, so I ordered a metal rail dohickey to let me insert one hard disk in a 5 inch wide cd drive slot,
17:05:21 <b_jonas> and if I do that, I'll be able to place all hard disks so that there's a slot high gap above each
17:08:57 <tromp> what is a proper solution, int-e ?
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17:15:49 <int-e> tromp: those with positive prices.
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17:21:13 <tromp> oh, i had a signb error
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17:24:19 <tromp> > [(a,b,c,(35*(6+a-b))%(16*a-10*b),(35*(b-a))%(10*b-16*a)) | b<-[7..15],a<-[0..b-7],c<-[b+11..26],(b-a)*(16*c-26*b)==(c-b)*(10*b-16*a)]
17:24:21 <lambdabot> [(0,9,24,7 % 6,7 % 2),(1,10,25,5 % 4,15 % 4),(2,11,26,35 % 26,105 % 26)]
17:24:45 <tromp> only the 2nd of these 3 has prices in while number of pennies...
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17:37:34 <tromp> how would one test if a Data.Ratio Int is an integer?
17:37:55 <tromp> hmm, lemme ask in #haskell
17:38:25 <tromp> oh, i can use denominator function
17:50:09 <tromp> print [(a,b,c,x,y) | b<-[7..15], a<-[0..b-7], c<-[b+11..26],
17:50:11 <tromp> let {d = 10*b-16*a; x=(b-6-a)*35%d; y=(b-a) *35%d},
17:50:12 <tromp> (b-a)*(16*c-26*b)==(c-b)*d, all ((== 0).mod 100.denominator) [x,y]]
17:50:54 <tromp> > print [(a,b,c,x,y) | b<-[7..15], a<-[0..b-7], c<-[b+11..26],let {d = 10*b-16*a; x=(b-6-a)*35%d; y=(b-a) *35%d},(b-a)*(16*c-26*b)==(c-b)*d, all ((== 0).mod 100.denominator) [x,y]]
17:51:14 <tromp> > [(a,b,c,x,y) | b<-[7..15], a<-[0..b-7], c<-[b+11..26],let {d = 10*b-16*a; x=(b-6-a)*35%d; y=(b-a) *35%d},(b-a)*(16*c-26*b)==(c-b)*d, all ((== 0).mod 100.denominator) [x,y]]
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18:04:33 <fizzie> http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=195 "Finnish -- Absolute gibberish."
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18:31:42 <b_jonas> oh, Haley gives an explanation (not necessarily the truth) on how he convinced the repair guys
18:45:17 <fizzie> J_Arcane: Yes, for the sound. I think whoever made the image was possibly going by the verb forms, which would be http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naukua#Finnish
18:46:01 <fizzie> (There's no verb for the "miau" version, you can't say "miaukuu" or anything.)
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19:50:11 <HackEgo> olist (966): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
19:51:07 <FireFly> ootses have gotten pretty frequent
19:54:17 <elliott> 14:26:34 <callforjudgement> ooh, elliott's online and probably has the right opinion about this
19:54:28 <elliott> I defer to you over some random dude
19:55:01 <callforjudgement> elliott: a) I don't want to edit war; b) this is dangerously close to turning into another Esme, except one that's POV-pushing for some reason
19:55:33 <callforjudgement> my main reason to not just revert is that I don't want to end up on Esolang's equivalent of WP:LAME
19:56:16 <elliott> 14:39:45 <callforjudgement> however, I consider linking to your language from the Main Page an indication that you consider it finished
19:56:24 <b_jonas> has the buy returned yet? no, he didn't
19:56:30 <callforjudgement> summary: newbie creates a bad BF derivative that's somehow so bad it can't even read memory
19:57:00 <callforjudgement> I fix the formatting, add categories, including a computational class section and unusuable for computing cat
19:57:00 <b_jonas> and with a too vague description (not that it's unique in that respect on the esolang wiki)
19:57:26 <b_jonas> oh, it's supposed to add two _constants_?
19:57:26 <elliott> callforjudgement: do we even have 3rr?
19:57:33 <b_jonas> I couldn't figure out how that would work
19:57:46 <callforjudgement> elliott: I was going to invent the rule on the spot, then impose it
19:58:11 <callforjudgement> but I thought it'd look bad if I'd also been the person doing the other three reverts needed to push the newbie to four
19:58:31 <callforjudgement> that's like top of the list of "ok, you haven't actually broken 3RR, but you've broken pretty much every other possible rule surrounding the circumstance
19:59:13 <elliott> callforjudgement: just relax and remember, it's not as bad as NSQX
19:59:49 <callforjudgement> this thing has a decent shot at worst BF derivative ever; where's Phantom_Hoover when you need him?
19:59:50 <elliott> you should read user talk:nsqx
20:00:21 <b_jonas> probably better not to read it
20:01:31 <zzo38> Is a UUID too small to store a geolocation?
20:01:40 <lambdabot> boily asked 2d 8h 33m 41s ago: if AndoDaan were to ask you about z80, would you say it be like it is, but it do?
20:02:13 <callforjudgement> somehow I find this new language even more offensive than BF-without-[-or-] (which, sadly, has been created several times)
20:02:28 <b_jonas> wait, BF-without-[-or-] really?
20:02:38 <elliott> there's no way this is the worst bf deriv ever
20:02:48 <Bicyclidine> at least they put effort into the page, though
20:02:48 <b_jonas> I want to ask what it has instead of [ or ] but I think I know the answer
20:02:51 <elliott> off the top of my head, bestfriends.js is worse
20:02:53 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: I think we need a poe's law equivalent for BF derivatives
20:03:32 <Bicyclidine> poe's law says that satires are impossible to distinguish from legit fuckers
20:04:00 <b_jonas> why isn't that called Mark Twain's law?
20:04:01 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: basically the principle where sufficiently crazy extremists are indistinguishable from people holding intentionally crazy positions to parody them
20:04:14 <b_jonas> is there something about Poe I should know to understand that naming?
20:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i think there was a guy named poe on usenet 'back in the day'
20:05:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: actually it's named after a dude on a christian forum i think
20:06:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.christianforums.com/t1962980-6/#post17606580 fair enough
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20:07:31 <callforjudgement> but think there was some BF-in-JS that was much worse, and can't remember what it was
20:08:11 <elliott> Reps: 295,212,687,427,838,720 (power: 0)
20:08:19 <elliott> so many reps but so little power
20:14:03 <fizzie> That seems like an odd number.
20:14:18 <fizzie> I mean, not odd as in odd-even, just odd.
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20:26:53 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I have the nagging feeling that this article is not intended to be self-referential.
20:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> there is a picture on that article of a cat walking beside the number 13
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20:28:21 <callforjudgement> to be fair, Poe's Law arguably applies to the whole of Conservapedia
20:28:30 <callforjudgement> or at least, I'm pretty sure there are people who mistake it for satire
20:28:58 <b_jonas> what? it applies to the whole internet
20:29:13 <b_jonas> oh, you mean as an instance
20:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> callforjudgement, well half of the site is satire that's snuck in under the noses of the admins
20:34:16 <Bicyclidine> yeah i was gonna say it sure ain't an accident
20:40:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Strato]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40695 * 83.101.88.18 * (+436) Created page with "'''Strato''' is a language without reserved words. The meanings reserved words normally have, are replaced by sequences of one or more punctuation marks or the relative positi..."
20:41:35 <callforjudgement> from that summary, there is a decent chance this language doesn't suck
20:42:46 <callforjudgement> hmm, actually, seems to be someone who doesn't realise why syntax is unimportant, but that's OK
20:43:01 <HackEgo> 148) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
20:43:34 <int-e> what about piet or befunge
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20:46:38 <fizzie> Replacing words by punctuation does not sound like much of a change.
20:49:34 <b_jonas> meh, the esowiki is full of languages with only the syntax being strange
20:50:13 <HackEgo> 151) <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
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20:50:21 <b_jonas> sometimes you can even have a nice language from that, if you make sure not to repeat the same thing twice: think of piet, whitespace, shakespear or chef
20:50:43 <callforjudgement> yes, I bring up Shakespeare and Haifu as examples of well-done thematic languages
20:50:51 <b_jonas> Haifu? let me look taht up
20:51:04 <callforjudgement> you can also have things like Forte, which only works because of the syntax
20:51:42 <b_jonas> then there's boring ones like lolcode
20:52:09 <b_jonas> oh, I think I've seen this Haifu before
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21:49:31 <Sgeo> ais523: "Musical notes is incapable of doing any sort of useful computation, because it has no way to read the value of a cell on the tape (other than outputting it to the user, which affects its control flow). Thus, with no conditional control constructs, each program always runs the same commands in the same order, making it a particularly restricted class of [[finite state machine]]."
21:49:50 <Sgeo> That explanation... could be worded better I think. All deterministic programs with no I always run the same commands in the same order
21:50:24 <ais523> if you can come up with a better wording, you may solve a long-standing problem in theoretical computer science
21:50:35 <ais523> ("how do we unambiguously define TCness, anyway?")
21:51:09 <ais523> now I'm wondering if we can create a language that's incapable of reading memory that nonetheless has TC behaviour
21:51:39 <MDude> How would having to output a vaue effect control flow?
21:53:11 <Sgeo> Another miswording I assume
21:53:26 <elliott> Sgeo: you kind of have to define input to be able to define TCness
21:53:37 <Sgeo> Or not a miswording but in that case, if output affects control flow, there are control constructs
21:55:55 <MDude> ais523: A Stateless protocol language?
21:56:22 <ais523> right, that much is a miswording
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21:56:30 <ais523> MDude: basically you have a black box you can never look inside
21:56:34 <Sgeo> I keep seeing criticisms of Scala that relate to its complexity and constant ability to do things in multiple ways, which makes me sad because I want to like Scala and dislike Go
21:56:35 <ais523> but you can perform arithmetic on it remotely
21:56:59 <ais523> like, you have a fixed sequence of commands you run, without ever being exposed to the actual /values/
21:57:03 <ais523> data dissociated from flow control
21:57:30 <Bicyclidine> i want to like disliking liking scala, but i don't
21:59:01 <b_jonas> ais523: easy, just cheat by making it store state in something you don't call memory, and add a "memory" as a red herring used only for output
21:59:47 <ais523> b_jonas: well you'd have to have a limited set of commands that exist inside
21:59:56 <ais523> no loops, for instance
22:00:04 <ais523> conditionals are probably OK because you can do them arithmetically
22:00:32 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, right, that's another possible
22:01:03 <b_jonas> you can have a language with only a single big unconditional loop, no control flow except for conditinal input and output statements
22:01:23 <b_jonas> like, no conditional control flow
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22:02:50 <Sgeo> What's the difference between an output-only language that always terminates and a specification for compression?
22:03:03 <Sgeo> I could have worded that better
22:03:15 <Sgeo> and a compression encoidng?
22:04:27 <b_jonas> compressions always terminate?
22:04:55 <b_jonas> meh, you can run video compression with such exhaustive search parameters that you won't have a powerful enough computer to run it to compleition
22:05:17 <Sgeo> *decompression, I think
22:05:21 <Sgeo> The program is the compressed value
22:05:58 <b_jonas> but yeah, I know it's only at most PSPACE in theory if it's implemented properly
22:10:05 <fizzie> "It's only PSPACE" is probably not very comforting if you're, say, in the business of making video compression systems, and your clients complain about the computational cost.
22:10:29 <fizzie> Even if you prefix it with "don't be such a wuss".
22:10:31 <oerjan> <callforjudgement> I'll let oerjan shout at the author, oerjan's good at shouting <-- argh
22:14:41 <Sgeo> Scala for comprehensions aren't applicative do? That makes me sad
22:15:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I'm wrong
22:15:50 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: you kind of have to define input to be able to define TCness <-- not necessarily input separate from code
22:16:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, that's why I said earlier today that “Unusable for computation” is a strange category name to apply to non-TC esolangs when we also have esolangs that require doubly exponential time to do anything useful
22:16:05 <elliott> but you have to be able to vary it.
22:16:55 <b_jonas> mind you, actually requiring doubly exponential time is a tricky thing to achieve, the only way I know to get it is when you can simulate a two counter machine but not a three counter machine or anything more powerful
22:17:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: for TC, we just say you have to be able to transform any program to that language in polynomial time
22:17:46 <b_jonas> that encompasses the input
22:19:27 <b_jonas> for practically usable languages, you want more than that, but TC doesn't mean practically usable
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22:21:13 <Sgeo> Scala implicits remind me of ... hmm. Not totally sure. Kernel static keyed whatchamacallits? Racket syntax parameters?
22:25:32 <oerjan> b_jonas: i have never assumed polynomial time, just "terminating"
22:26:34 <oerjan> TC is in the realm of recursive languages, after all, it would be silly to mention "polynomial" at that level
22:27:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: i thought scala for comprehensions used flatmap and map (the latter to avoid needing return)
22:28:12 <oerjan> this is vaguely recalled from a stackoverflow question that crossed between scala and haskell, mind you
22:28:13 <Sgeo> oerjan: yes, unless you don't use yield but instead an imperative block, in which case it uses foreach in place of flatmap, iiuc
22:28:28 <oerjan> anyway, flatmap is basically >>=
22:29:30 <Sgeo> Yes, but what is foreach basically?
22:29:53 <Sgeo> And it makes me sad that Scala can't just detect when flatmap isn't needed and use something else instead
22:30:01 <int-e> oerjan: would you agree that henkma is a monster?
22:30:40 <oerjan> b_jonas: i tend to interpret "unusable for computation" as considerably stricter than "non-TC", mind you. deadfish might qualify but a terminating language like Coq or Agda would be far from satisfying it
22:31:34 <oerjan> int-e: has he been doing something today, i haven't checked up, last i saw was that we were beating him on the tetration thing but i wasn't expecting that to last
22:31:59 <oerjan> and i have forgot to check if any problems have expired recently
22:32:39 <oerjan> int-e: also, i guess you also were grumbling that monomorphism prevented you from saving a character?
22:34:00 <int-e> oerjan: I did at some point, but it's no longer an issue, since we're all cheating.
22:34:08 <int-e> oerjan: except you :P
22:34:24 <zzo38> I try to think how to compress shift-reduce parsing tables. Look at http://www.cs.uic.edu/~spopuri/cparser.html#modified-tables too. You could write: [2] M=7 L=6 [0] L=3 E=4 [9] E=12 P=5 a=1 (=2 <ERROR>
22:34:26 <oerjan> ok i shall have to have a look
22:34:36 <int-e> oerjan: but actually I was referring to swap the characters
22:34:51 <int-e> oerjan: where he somehow shaved off another 6 characters
22:35:34 <zzo38> How do you think of compressing tables for using in a shift-reduce parser?
22:36:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: isn't foreach also >>= just with m () result essentially? just guessing here.
22:36:52 <oerjan> int-e: i think swap the characters is something i gave up on long ago
22:38:12 <oerjan> oh wait, maybe i actually tied on that, then gave up improving further
22:39:33 <oerjan> int-e: incidentally that was the one where i thought i had cleverly used pattern guards, only to see you beat me
22:39:35 <int-e> yeah we were tied on that at 85, then henkma achieved 84
22:39:47 <int-e> and that was it until yesterday
22:40:13 <zzo38> (My code isn't quite right. It specifies an error where there should be a reduce.)
22:40:27 <oerjan> well, i got down to 84 too by abandoning the guards
22:42:23 <oerjan> i recall the possibility of swap commands with equal chars were causing some obvious options to fail
22:43:11 <oerjan> perhaps he's found a more clever way of avoiding that
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22:53:39 <fizzie> I wrote a dc tetration in 25B, then it ballooned up to 44B with the workaround for dc's built-in output line wrapping, and now there's a 28B by tails, and I can't be sure if I'm just missing some really obvious workaround for the printing or what.
22:54:44 <fizzie> (The anagol 'dc' launcher scripts set DC_LINE_LENGTH=9999 -- even though DC_LINE_LENGTH=0 would disable the splitting completely -- and test #1 output is longer than that.)
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23:04:39 <Sgeo> Other than Scala, what languages have first-class pattern synonyms?
23:04:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:05:03 <Sgeo> (Although Scala's might be annoying to manipulate in a first-class way... there are a bunch of distinct valid types for them)
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23:27:12 <int-e> fizzie: I think both parts can be improved.
23:33:21 <int-e> fizzie: I have 14 without, 29 with workaround.
23:37:43 <int-e> (shortened the number printing)
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00:04:12 <Sgeo> I really like Scala's standard trampoline, at least relative to Clojure's
00:04:27 <Sgeo> Although not needing such tricks would be better >.>
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00:06:14 <oerjan> trampolines are fun but they steal your time
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00:09:27 <Sgeo> And Chrome is not going to let me copy out of a PDF today
00:39:59 <oerjan> ...what time zone is shinh.org on, something asian?
00:41:23 * oerjan just dislikes things not giving a timezone if it's not UTC
01:11:21 <oerjan> oh hm i must have pressed the wrong vim button for the count, i thought i'd beat them by 1 char
01:13:59 <oerjan> it doesn't seem _that_ impossible to find a shorter expression though...
01:14:03 <elliott> oerjan: note that newlines are dangerous
01:14:44 <oerjan> not the problem, although i've never actually checked with _not_ removing the final newline on input i think...
01:15:02 <oerjan> i know the program _output_ doesn't care about trailing newlines.
01:15:50 <oerjan> elliott: or, it _may_ have been the problem in vim (not doing a full line selection), but it wasn't a problem when submitting.
01:16:22 <oerjan> because i usually select the full line and mentally subtract the newline from the count.
01:16:46 <oerjan> or wait perhaps it was even more stupid.
01:16:58 <elliott> they are \r\n through the web form
01:16:58 <oerjan> elliott: only at the end, in haskell, usually.
01:17:06 <elliott> \n if you upload a unix format text file
01:17:10 <oerjan> elliott: huh? never had that problem.
01:17:20 <oerjan> even if i use the form from windows
01:17:31 <elliott> you used to pay double for newlines unless you uploaded
01:17:37 <oerjan> also, this program is one line anyway.
01:18:30 <oerjan> i actually, since i am on windows, used the form because i assumed if it broke it was likely to be the _other_ way :P
01:19:09 <oerjan> also i keep all my golfs in one file so it's awkward to upload.
01:24:14 <int-e> oerjan: it's much easier to find longer expression...
01:25:01 <int-e> my favourite so far contained sum[2..a]
01:25:14 <int-e> but it was too long.
02:21:56 <int-e> okay, got "swap the characters" -- it's actually cheating!
02:22:24 <int-e> but you can get to 80 without cheating.
02:30:44 <oerjan> the only possible cheat information i've found is the fact that none of the starting words have 2 chars, but i haven't found any improvement from that.
02:30:59 <oerjan> well, also there are no lines with no swap commands.
02:31:31 <int-e> I've already said more than I should.
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03:10:10 <oerjan> remarkable. i discovered i had overengineered the way to apply a single swap to a character, and now i'm down to 81.
03:10:35 <int-e> I've made some progress on Asteriks and Obeliks in the meantime :)
03:15:42 <oerjan> i see. you are now at exactly the length i would have had if i _didn't_ need that stupid strip-final-spaces version of ++.
03:22:05 <oerjan> or well, my main function is 73 chars.
03:23:23 <oerjan> which means, logically, that you probably have found a way to get that stripping for free, at least.
03:25:18 <int-e> well, not completely free.
03:26:19 <oerjan> oh hm i recall something i did in another golf recently...
03:29:07 <int-e> 10 characters, I think.
03:29:15 <oerjan> ah yes the euclidian norm one required stripping with another method.
03:30:20 <oerjan> more than 10 chars, though :(
03:44:47 <Sgeo> Is it just me or is Scala filled with things where a person -can- determine behavior statically, but it can be a bit tricky?
03:45:28 <Sgeo> Implicits in scope, but tracking all of them might be tricky... guess a good IDE could help with that, but do you really want to rely on an IDE to help read code?
03:47:47 <Sgeo> At least now I understand what's going on with https://github.com/urso/embeddedmonads
03:48:24 <Sgeo> At least why the call looks the way it does, it's just a matter of {} being a value + not needing parens + type of runOption indicating a thunk
03:48:44 <Sgeo> Not that {} is automatically a thunk, it's just the type of the called function that causes it to be
03:50:50 <Sgeo> I still don't get the cps typing though
04:18:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40696&oldid=39329 * Nthern * (+31) /* x = x == y */
04:25:54 <zzo38> Did you know, the man who designed the White House was Catholic, the man who invented double-entry accounting was Catholic, and even Hitler and Dracula were Catholic?
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04:31:04 <zzo38> You mentioned Poe's law on Conservapedia; but I found it is actually on Wikipedia too (which I consider far more trustworthy, regardless of what Conservapedia says; nevertheless is good to see the various views mentioned in various texts).
04:41:57 <coppro> zzo38: Conservapedia is the embodiment of Poe's Law
04:45:56 <zzo38> coppro: I suppose you may be right.
04:46:22 <zzo38> As has been mentioned before, possibly even people on there don't know how serious it is.
04:46:30 <zzo38> (I mean the people who write it!)
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05:01:21 <oerjan> zzo38: did you know that the man who invented the idea of the big bang was catholic
05:02:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Actually, yes I knew that too.
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05:10:10 <zzo38> Also, it was Christians who wrote "X" in place of "Christ" (as an abbreviation), not atheists.
05:10:20 <zzo38> (Of course now atheists do it too sometimes.)
05:10:54 <zzo38> Something being Christian is neither an argument for nor against such a thing.
05:14:25 <elliott> did you know the pope is catholic
05:19:55 <zzo38> I also do not completely understand the working of big bang, although perhaps I can look it up in Wikipedia.
05:21:31 <Bicyclidine> i thin if you had a good understanding of the early aftermath you'd be up for honorary doctorates
05:21:55 <Bicyclidine> or of the later aftermath, since that's now, if you think about it
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05:35:28 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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06:56:45 <zzo38> I am still confused; is there the difference of space and time? Shouldn't spacetime be one thing?
06:59:23 <Slereah> Spacetime is one thing, yes
06:59:28 <Bicyclidine> yes, they have opposite signs in the metric signature bla bla bla
06:59:38 <Slereah> But there is a difference between timelike curves and spacelike curves
07:00:06 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, but how does it relate to big bang?
07:00:25 <zzo38> I know they have opposite signs
07:00:27 <Slereah> In the current understanding of the big bang, there is a timelike singularity
07:00:41 <Slereah> That is, you cannot extend a timelike geodesic infinitely far in the past
07:02:46 <elliott> watch me [starts stretching a timelike geodesic with bare hands]
07:03:21 <Slereah> But will you be able to do it
07:03:37 <elliott> [arms disappear into the distance, undergo gravitational collapse]
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07:05:10 <Slereah> You can have lots of fun with spacetimes
07:05:22 <Slereah> It is possible to have spacetimes without any future or past distinction
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07:39:45 <Sgeo> Maybe it's fair to say that Scala uses lexical scoping in letter but not spirit? With lexical scoping you expect to be able to look for identifiers textually (bad word) nearby. Not so easy in Scala
07:41:38 <Lymia> Sgeo, generally not so easy in OO
07:43:16 <Lymia> But I'm curious which feature you're referring to.
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08:00:31 <Sgeo> Implicits, which get brought into scope via import, but the name of an implicit in use may not be obvious
08:00:50 <Sgeo> (Or via other mechanisms too, actually)
08:01:36 <Lymia> Eh... IMO, the purpose of lexical scoping is that A) nothing happens that you haven't explicitly introduced, and B) you can statically determine everything in a scope.
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08:36:52 <Lymia> Sgeo, I'm not sure implicits should be thought of as having names, even.
08:37:00 <Lymia> They do have /types/ but not sure about names.
08:37:07 <Lymia> (Except as an implementation detail)
08:40:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Beefster * New user account
08:52:54 <elliott> Sgeo: don't, uh, /globals/ violate that?
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09:23:34 <fizzie> int-e: Well, I have a cheating first half in 17 and a workaround-prints of 15 (which times out) and 20 (which doesn't).
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09:43:52 <zzo38> Can LALR(1) grammars have states with more than one kind of reduce depending on the lookahead? Can SLR(1) grammars have?
10:16:50 <fizzie> int-e: Scratch that, I have a workaround-print of size 11 now, leading to a 28B solution. Now if I could only figure out how to make a shorter first half.
10:34:51 <fizzie> int-e: (Any tips? :) )
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13:27:08 <int-e> > length $ show $ 2^2^2^2^2
13:29:59 <int-e> fizzie: my hint would be to try and match the Haskell solution, that's where I took the formula from...
13:31:09 <fizzie> I don't have a Haskell solution, though. (And that length sounds more relevant for the printing than the computation.)
13:31:16 <int-e> fizzie: (I have no useful hint to give)
13:31:33 <int-e> yes, I improved my printing part.
13:32:00 <fizzie> I don't think my printing needs improvement any more (it's 11B), but the front half (17B) does.
13:32:36 <fizzie> Oh well, only 12 days to wait and see. :)
13:38:33 <int-e> the part sizes are 13 (as before, the 14 included a 'p') and 11 (matching yours), fwiw.
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13:48:53 <fizzie> I don't much like dc's "all conditional stuff must go via a register" thing.
13:53:43 <fizzie> I've got the same part sizes now, but slightly different statistics.
13:57:17 <int-e> I have two versions of part 1
13:58:09 <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, do your two versions involve a different amount of ?s?
13:58:36 <int-e> hmm but they have the same statistics.
13:58:55 <Lymia> > length $ show $ 2^2^2^2^10
14:00:43 <int-e> > length $ show $ 2^2^10
14:01:19 <int-e> 2^2^2^10 is already much too big to fit into memory.
14:02:21 <int-e> fizzie: no, they don't.
14:02:41 <fizzie> int-e: I was wondering whether I should try with one, but it didn't seem to help any.
14:02:48 <Lymia> > length $ show $ 2^2^2^10
14:03:05 <fizzie> It's just 2^179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137216.
14:03:26 <Lymia> Sounds reasonable enough.
14:04:21 <Lymia> > length $ show $ 1^2^2^2^10
14:05:20 <fizzie> That times log_10(2) should be about the number of digits for your earlier 2^2^2^2^10.
14:09:16 <fizzie> So (unless I miscalculated) the number of digits of 2^2^2^2^10 is a number that has around 5e307 digits.
14:11:19 <int-e> fizzie: thanks for that
14:11:59 <fizzie> (I did notice the 23B.)
14:12:24 <int-e> for the idea of playing with the second input
14:12:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
14:12:51 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, so you used only the first one initially?
14:13:00 <mroman> !blsq 2 2 2 2 10********
14:13:00 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
14:13:13 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping I could shave off a byte by trying that, after all.
14:17:40 <fizzie> Oh, you did it too. Unyay, now I'm only #2.
14:18:26 <fizzie> I don't know why it took me that long, given that I was already using both.
14:19:58 <fizzie> (I think it's quite likely we've ended up with identical solutions by now.)
14:33:52 <Sgeo> Stared at the sun. Saw a sunspot
14:35:12 <int-e> don't hurt your eyes
14:36:19 <Sgeo> I was using solar glasses
14:36:28 <Sgeo> http://www.rainbowsymphonystore.com/eclipseshades.html
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14:37:33 <Sgeo> " These premium filters create a sharper ORANGE colored image of the sun. "
14:37:43 <Sgeo> Are they doing things that artificially color the image? :/
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14:40:58 <Sgeo> I guess I don't really have a way to tell if their glasses really are certified in any way
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15:03:28 <int-e> > comparing length "Eclipse Shades® Safe Solar Eclipse Glasses" "Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive sunglasses"
15:04:13 <fizzie> > length <$> ["Eclipse Shades® Safe Solar Eclipse Glasses", "Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive sunglasses"]
15:04:27 <fizzie> Note first number, certainly not a coincidence.
15:08:52 <fizzie> > length <$> ["ä", "ä"]
15:09:07 <fizzie> So length in terms of code points, then.
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15:45:01 <Jafet> > fromEnum (maxBound :: Char)
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17:11:02 <fizzie> int-e: I wrote Belgian numbers in sed, and it turned out to be 415 bytes long; I have no idea how people actually golf (numeric problems) in sed in any meaningful way.
17:11:36 <fizzie> (There's a 183B sed solution for it already.)
17:16:33 <int-e> I don't know; I'd browse previous solutions.
17:16:56 <fizzie> Also they might be difficult.
17:17:03 <int-e> less work than figuring out everything from scratch.
17:22:10 <Sgeo> I stared at the sun while wearing a symbol associated with a character who went blind by staring at the sun
17:23:01 <int-e> fizzie: for example, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Multiply+long+version/tails_1334125271&sed looks like it does real arithmetic.
17:28:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: What symbol and character is that?
17:31:07 <Sgeo> zzo38: http://www.whatpumpkin.com/Hero-of-Mind-Standard-Tee.html
17:31:18 <Sgeo> For http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Terezi_Pyrope
17:38:12 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/zterm.txt Can you please tell me if it is good, your opinion of such things? It can be one possible alternative to Glk, and is one which should be more suitable for Z-machine programming.
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18:01:27 <SignX> Hello, does Esolang also provide a forum in which the technical side of developing programming languages is discussed?
18:02:14 <zzo38> SignX: I think is probably best to just post on this channel; there was a forum but it isn't very good so just use the IRC.
18:02:39 <zzo38> Do you have specific questions about such things?
18:05:31 <SignX> So, no specific question, actually, I was just looking for resources about developing programming languages in which I could wander around and maybe learn from.
18:06:11 <zzo38> Esolang is very unusual compared to most kind of "ordinary" programming languages, but there is still something to learn from.
18:06:51 <zzo38> There are also logs of this IRC channel, and stuff on the talk pages of the wiki, which are some things to possibly look at.
18:07:22 <zzo38> Even look in Wikipedia you can see many other kind of programming languages too.
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18:07:38 <SignX> Do you know of any other resources (fora) on the internet in which a community of language developers exist for some time?
18:07:53 <zzo38> I myself don't know any.
18:08:31 <zzo38> What kind of programming language are you trying to invent? Domain-specific, domain-independent, target-machine-specific, target-machine-independent, etc?
18:09:53 <SignX> A general purpose programming language. I have writting a prototype interpreter in Java using javacc.
18:10:32 <zzo38> Well, let's see and then perhaps some questions, comments, and complaints can be made.
18:11:16 <zzo38> Are you using a parser generator?
18:11:49 <zzo38> Ah, OK, I don't know that one. Is it LL or LR or something else?
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18:13:54 <SignX> Not sure what LL and LR stand for, sorry.
18:15:46 <zzo38> Wikipedia says JavaCC is LL(k). However, LR parsers are generally more powerful.
18:16:27 <SignX> You mean powerful in the sense that your syntax can be more complex?
18:17:19 <SignX> Until now it proved powerful enough. The language itself is quite simple.
18:17:40 <zzo38> Well, LL(1) parsers are often good enough.
18:17:58 <SignX> I did not have any Compiler courses or anything, so my knowledge of the topic is not that good.
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18:20:01 <SignX> I remembered some concepts I found very interesting during my study and tried to combine them into a programming language. I am not even sure if it is Turing complete or anything. That is why I am developing this prototype in Java. To see how my ideas hold up in practise.
18:20:27 <zzo38> SignX: Yes, you can try and see how well it might work.
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18:54:53 <SignX> Zzo38: do you know anything about Prolog?
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19:13:24 <Sgeo> My eyes feel a bit weird, I hope it's psychosomatic
19:19:20 <Sgeo> http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/synoptic/sunspots_earth/mdi_sunspots_1024.jpg
19:19:27 <Sgeo> I think I saw that large sunspot, but not in much detail
19:19:47 <Sgeo> HMm, that image will go away soon, won't it
19:20:15 <Sgeo> For the logs: http://i.imgur.com/PBK8KLD.jpg
19:20:18 <Sgeo> For the logs: http://i.imgur.com/PBK8KLD.jpg
19:22:31 <Sgeo> I hate Quassel
19:24:27 <olsner> hmm, you stared at the sun to see some sunspots, and now your eyes feel a bit weird?
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19:27:07 <Sgeo> I was wearing solar eclipse glasses
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19:28:36 <olsner> still wearing them? :P
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19:44:48 <Sgeo> "One thing I didn't notice however was a warning about not looking at the sun with them on for more than 3 minutes. My husband noticed this and told me about it. It would be good to include that information more prominently, so it will be blatantly obvious - IN LARGE LETTERS - on the outside of the glasses themselves. It was printed inside the glasses on the ear piece in very small text."
19:46:16 <Sgeo> I don't see any such notice on mine
19:46:48 <Sgeo> Oh, someone commented on that review "It sounds like someone did a bait and switch on you as the CE Certified glasses from Rainbow Symphony which are Black do not say anything like that on the inside frames. It sounds like you recevied a pair of Solar Skreens instead which are a cheaper Mylar film than the Ploymer Film used in Eclipse Shades."
19:49:26 <Sgeo> So, there are some glasses which say 3 minutes continuous use. These don't, but now I'm worried
20:06:13 <Sgeo> "Letters, which include lower case letters (Ll), upper case letters (Lu), titlecase letters (Lt)"
20:06:17 <Sgeo> Titlecase letters?
20:06:53 <fizzie> There are some two-letter "letters".
20:07:10 <fizzie> For which you have both lowercase "ab", uppercase "AB" and a titlecase "Ab".
20:07:11 <myname> i'd assume "kapitälchen" in german
20:08:42 <HackEgo> [U+01F1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ] [U+01F2 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z] [U+01F3 LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ]
20:09:11 <HackEgo> U+01F2 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: c7 b2 UTF-16BE: 01f2 Decimal: Dz \ Dz (DZ) \ Uppercase: U+01F1 \ Category: Lt (Letter, Titlecase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0044 007A
20:09:20 <fizzie> That's a titlecase letter ("Lt" category), for example.
20:10:13 <fizzie> "The titlecase mapping in Unicode differs from the uppercase mapping in that a number of characters require special handling. These are chiefly ligatures and digraphs such as 'fl', 'dz', and 'lj', plus a number of polytonic Greek characters. For example, U+01C7 (LJ) maps to U+01C8 (Lj) rather than to U+01C9 (lj)."
20:12:14 <fizzie> There are a total of 31 titlecase letters.
20:13:27 <fizzie> Four Latin ligatures (Dž, Lj, Nj and Dz -- that is, Dž, Lj, Nj and Dz) and 27 Greek ones.
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20:15:15 <Lymia> Why are those ligatures again?
20:15:20 <Lymia> Instead of stuff handled by kerning in the font
20:15:35 <fizzie> GREEK CAPITAL LETTER {ALPHA,ETA,OMEGA} WITH {PSILI,DASIA} AND {,VARIA AND ,OXIA AND ,PERISPOMENI AND }PROSGEGRAMMENI.
20:16:21 <fizzie> Lymia: "For compatibility".
20:17:23 <fizzie> "Because of the inclusion of certain composite characters for compatiblity, such as U+01F1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ, a third case, called titlecase, is used where the first character of a word must be capitalized." (Unicode 7.0.0, chapter 4.2.)
20:19:41 <fizzie> Good old round-trip convertibility design goal.
20:33:13 <Sgeo> I think I forgot about my eyes feeling weird
20:36:22 <int-e> http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/vision/Galileo.html is interesting
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20:38:50 <int-e> and if that's too long to read, at least read the paragraph that contains the word "exploded".
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20:42:50 <Sgeo> Arguably then could inadequate filtering be worse than naked eye viewing, since pupils would be dilated?
20:42:58 <Sgeo> Hopefully the glasses are adequate >.>
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23:52:29 <oerjan> <zzo38> Can LALR(1) grammars have states with more than one kind of reduce depending on the lookahead? <-- i _think_ so, provided that the resulting symbols can only occur with those respective lookaheads.
23:53:18 <oerjan> 8 minutes to europe's yearly backwards time travel
23:54:04 <oerjan> is it 2-1 or 3-2, sheesh
23:54:26 <zzo38> I do not understand your response very well?
23:55:56 <oerjan> well if you have E that can only be followed by c ever, and F that can only be followed by d ever, then you could have E and F reduce from the same thing, i think.
23:56:56 <oerjan> (this slightly adapted from wikipedia's example of an LR(1) non-LALR(1) grammar, where both E and F can be followed by c and d, but with different prefixes.
23:58:39 <oerjan> ah it's 3->2. so make that 1 hour 2 minutes, now.
23:59:10 <zzo38> I have seen that example, but I don't think that is my question. What I mean is if there can be different "r" actions in a single row of the table.
23:59:34 <oerjan> i didn't mean that example.
23:59:57 <zzo38> Like in this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LR(k)#Parse_table_for_the_example_grammar there is row 6 says "r3" three times, and row 7 says "r4" three times; it doesn't have both "r3" and "r4" in the same row.
00:00:28 <oerjan> i mean something like S -> E c, S -> F d, E -> a, F -> a
00:02:30 <oerjan> "the example gramar is SLR"
00:02:54 <oerjan> anyway i _think_ my grammar there is LALR(1) but i'm a _little_ vague on the concept.
00:02:56 <zzo38> Yes that grammar seems to be LALR(1) (at least, it can be parsed by Lemon)
00:03:41 <oerjan> and it has such a case where a can reduce to E or F dependent on lookahead.
00:03:44 <zzo38> And in the output I get state 1 reduces 3 in the case of the "d" terminal and otherwise reduces production 2.
00:04:44 <oerjan> let me look at what SLR is, i don't think i have seen that explained before
00:07:13 <oerjan> oh. looking at the third paragraph of the "Lookahead sets" section, i think it's also SLR.
00:07:47 <zzo38> Lemon uses lowercase for nonterminals and uppercase for terminals though, so that is how I input it. (It also requires a full stop after every production.)
00:08:19 <zzo38> What class of grammars are produced if you have the restriction that no more than one kind of reduce is allowed in each row?
00:08:23 <oerjan> oh. wikipedia had it the other way around.
00:09:18 <oerjan> it's still more powerful than LR(0), i think.
00:09:42 <oerjan> well, almost obviously.
00:11:39 <zzo38> I notice in your example, if the last two productions are given the same action symbol then you can combine them if those are the only four productions in the grammar. (If they have no action symbols at all, then you can even omit it and put S -> a c, S -> a d)
00:13:34 <oerjan> well that thing happens with minimal examples, i'm sure.
00:13:44 <zzo38> What kind of program do these kind of compressions?
00:17:15 <zzo38> I want to make shift-reduce parser for text-adventure game, and to compress the tablse. I thought of some ideas of such thing.
00:17:20 <Sgeo> I can't tell if I actually enjoyed staring at the Sun or just the fact that I can say "I stared at the Sun"
00:18:57 <zzo38> One is that if different kind of words have the same meaning in all cases then they can be given the same token number (for example "N" and "NORTH" in most text-adventure games)
00:19:48 <zzo38> Nonterminals might also (probably less commonly) be combined in the same way, as well as possibly terminals with nonterminals.
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00:22:06 <zzo38> Another is that if a production has the same LHS, length of RHS, and action symbol, as another production, they can be considered as the same one within the parser table.
00:23:11 <zzo38> (An example is if two words which can have different meanings in some cases, still have the same meaning in this particular case.)
00:30:57 <zzo38> I thought of storing the tables so that the driver might work something like this: S is the current state, T is the parse table, and X is the current symbol. If T(S)=X and T(S+1)>=0, push T(S+1), set S to T(S+1), read the next token, and try again. If T(S)=X and T(S+1)<0, set S to ~T(S+1), read the next token, and try again.
00:34:27 <zzo38> If T(S)=0, signal an error and stop. If T(S)=1, stop, signalling an error if we aren't at the end of the input. If T(S)>1, then it is a reduce; rewind the token reader, set X to ~(T(S)&127), read the next (T(S)>>7)&15 entries from the table and write them into the parse output buffer, pop (T(S)>>11)&15 entries from the stack, peek the top of stack and set S, and then try again.
00:34:40 <zzo38> In all other cases, increment S by 2 and then try again.
00:35:15 <zzo38> How well should this work for a text-adventure game?
00:37:06 <zzo38> (Also, all numbers are signed 16-bits numbers.)
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01:00:00 <oerjan> and THERE it's the past again.
01:13:09 <Jafet> That looks like some rather severe clock drift
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02:17:46 <oerjan> oh duh the dst ending is why vim was behaving silly and thinking files had been changed after it wrote them
02:59:00 <Sgeo> `slist (second 10/25 update)
02:59:00 <HackEgo> slist (second 10/25 update): Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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04:38:01 <zzo38> If I made computer game based on things I dreamt, then, first you should have to select a character, and there should be one room that change every time you blinked, and also involving pokemon, and the elevator having floors labeled by colors instead of by numbers
04:38:14 <zzo38> (and then more than just that, too, probably)
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05:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: wow, it doesn't use unix time?
05:04:05 <elliott> oh... I guess windows stores mtimes as, like, timezoned times?
05:04:57 <zzo38> I think there is some option in the registry to tell Windows to internally store UTC times, although I don't know what it is; at least I think I have heard that somewhere.
05:12:28 * oerjan now vaguely recalling that being discussed before and something about it breaking stuff
05:28:27 <Sgeo> How much is reasonable to pay to see a total solar eclipse + aurora borealis?
05:28:53 <zzo38> It depend where you live, I think
05:29:18 <zzo38> As well as various other things, such as your desires
05:34:58 <Bike> just steal like five welding masks and stack them ontop of your face
05:41:29 <zzo38> 8/8/8/8/7R/7R/3RR1B1/R3K1kB DR. White to move. Where is white's original queen's rook? (This isn't so difficult, I figured it out quickly)
05:41:44 <zzo38> Choose from: h4, h3, d2, e2, a1, or it has been captured.
05:42:30 <zzo38> Why do you think it is that one?
05:45:42 <zzo38> "DR" means that before the last move was made, checkmate was still possible on at least one side if the players cooperate to make it so.
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06:08:22 <oerjan> Bike: wait, five? i distinctly recall using my uncle's one mask back a few years ago. that was for the venus passage though, i think.
06:08:59 * oerjan isn't entirely sure it was his uncle's. or which uncle. but anyhow.
06:46:46 <int-e> zzo38: cute pattern. "black's last move was forced, therefore it must still be possible to mate black now"
06:58:43 <Bike> oerjan: it's for styl
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14:39:57 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Not all welding masks are created equal; in theory you can replace a stack of five shade #X masks with a single shade #Y mask, where Y=5*X-4. (It's a logarithmic scale with an offset.)
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14:56:27 <J_Arcane> Yaaay. Installing a new video card. Now comes the joy of figuring out which of the utilities on the CD are actually necessary for card functions, and which are unnecessary rubbish.
14:58:33 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: most likely none are necessary
14:59:08 <J_Arcane> Well, one of them is supposed to control the inbuilt overclock management. I think.
14:59:13 <fizzie> I was assembling a computer for a friend recently, the graphics card came with a "driver CD" that did not contain a driver.
14:59:36 <fizzie> It contained a launcher thing that could install some random fluff, but for the drivers it just had "install from our website" links.
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14:59:51 <fizzie> (Of course the computer wasn't networked at the time.)
15:07:03 <J_Arcane> Yeah, looks like it just has an app to let you quick switch manually between a few default clock settings.
15:07:29 <J_Arcane> But any modern video card should be adjusting power and clock settings automatically anyway, so basically useless.
15:07:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: they also come with a "manual" that tells how to start the program from the cd
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15:34:06 <mroman> dell - some time ago - had those practical driver CDs
15:34:27 <mroman> where the drivers really were on the CD and it just detected missing drivers and installed them
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17:32:10 <zzo38> Do you know it is possible for a serious philosophy text to consist entirely of jokes?
17:33:36 <myname> i thoucht most of them do
17:33:52 <zzo38> Most of them? Are you sure?
17:34:01 <zzo38> I only know of one.
17:34:18 <zzo38> Principia Discordia
17:34:42 <myname> principia discordia is serious business!
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17:35:21 <zzo38> I didn't say it wasn't.
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18:40:03 <Sgeo> " The Union forces frequently named battles for bodies of water that were prominent on or near the battlefield; Confederates most often used the name of the nearest town. As a result, many battles have two or more names that have had varying use, although with some notable exceptions, one has tended to take precedence over time."
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19:18:26 <b_jonas> fungot, are you still mad at me?
19:18:26 <fungot> b_jonas: oh, i must have put that in your pipe and smoke it? how do people have to choose a time where it turns out, at exactly 10:04 p.m.! i was the stereotypical ignorant racist
19:20:14 <Sgeo> Do I have to read the Scala spec in order to understand Scala?
19:25:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:26:59 <MDude> I keep mistreadting oots as oot and thinking it's Orcania of Time.
19:27:58 <MDude> D isn't even near t.
19:28:17 <myname> i am always thinking it's order of the stick
19:28:22 <int-e> there's a subconscious "mistreating" in there
19:28:28 <MDude> Wait, that's not it either?
19:30:01 <MDude> I think I was going to type that differently and then presumed whatever I thought first was probably wrong?
19:30:17 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
19:30:40 <fungot> int-e: " and the creator of a great leader" in name only, you know, the additional evidence relies on other peoples' behavior to keep, and it was wrong, so no, and i need, a random castle
19:30:41 <MDude> Wonder what europarl is.
19:30:55 <int-e> speeches from the european parliament
19:31:06 <myname> a random castle is all you'll ever need
19:31:28 <MDude> Fisher isn't fisher price manuals, is it?
19:31:54 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
19:32:08 <fungot> int-e: ( ( oh do you go to in philadelphia
19:32:19 <int-e> fungot: call me later
19:32:19 <fungot> int-e: really it was annoying to that extent
19:32:30 <int-e> fungot: you know, never call me again
19:32:30 <fungot> int-e: puzzles would be fun to do and stuff from sigh you know why
19:32:43 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
19:33:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 261920Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW015 SCT020 BKN027 09/07 Q1028 NOSIG
19:33:51 <MDude> fungot: Dispense wonderous wisdom.
19:33:51 <fungot> MDude: good, good. my partner and i were to be connected to anything especialy scandalous. it, uh,, we need to get, and i'm a skeleton, 30 for that, my family would like my mode of transit returned, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, li
19:34:08 <int-e> ah, wall of text, very ootsy
19:34:25 <myname> "ootsy" is a great word
19:34:25 <MDude> do I not, liertenant
19:34:43 <fizzie> All of the styles have that little descriptive thing that is said when you select them.
19:35:19 <int-e> fizzie: right but is it possible to see it without selecting the style?
19:35:53 <fizzie> Well, unless you have a copy of the styles.list file.
19:36:05 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
19:36:06 <fizzie> fungot: Can the sword alone stop you?
19:36:06 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! irreparable! please! pretty please! hmmm, two-legged, walking humanoid robot! incredible!
19:36:08 <int-e> @google styles.list
19:36:24 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: <<timeout>>
19:36:53 <fizzie> fungot: Are you going to be controlling a two-legged, walking humanoid robot?
19:36:53 <fungot> fizzie: frog will do. fail to live up to your potential! you'll learn! sealed, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
19:37:09 <int-e> fungot: but frogs have four legs
19:37:09 <fungot> int-e: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
19:37:24 <fizzie> It really wants to see that hatch open.
19:37:37 <int-e> but it'll put us in danger
19:37:48 <fizzie> fungot: Can we open the hatch but avoid danger somehow?
19:37:49 <fungot> fizzie: that sword alone can't stop, crono! lucca's device is all we could get... out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
19:38:20 <fizzie> That's from one of the hardest-to-get endings.
19:38:29 <fizzie> Also one of the most jokey ones.
19:39:00 <fizzie> It's Marle and Lucca making off-color jokes about male NPCs, pretty much.
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20:09:37 <SignX> What I was wondering; is there a standard problem or application with which you can implement to find out whether a programming language is Turing-complete or at least expressive enough to be useful in practice?
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20:11:22 <zzo38> SignX: Of course you can try to implement a Turing-machine, or a brainfuck interpreter or something like that
20:11:26 <int-e> SignX: it's common to give a translation from a turing complete language, or implement an interpreter for such a language.
20:13:38 <zzo38> Why does Lemon use lowercase for nonterminals and uppercase for terminals, while many books are instead using uppercase for nonterminals and lowercase for terminals?
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20:16:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: I believe uppercase for terminals is the usual convention (not enforced) in yacc, because the symbol for a nonterminal is usually also used as a constant exported to C source code, and for that uppercase is conventional
20:16:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know about lemon, but the same might be happening
20:16:27 <int-e> that would be my guess as well
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20:16:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, I think uppercase for nonterminals is the case only when you use single letters,
20:17:13 <b_jonas> I think books use lowercase for everything when they use full words
20:17:18 <zzo38> In Lemon only terminals are exported into a C header files
20:17:40 <b_jonas> yes, terminals are exported to C source code
20:17:46 <int-e> Wheras in textbooks, I suppose terminals could be english words and non-terminals need to be distinguished from those.
20:17:59 <b_jonas> terminals are exported because the input (lexer) has to emit them
20:18:11 <zzo38> (The names of nonterminals are unimportant outside of the grammar definition file, and possibly a report file)
20:19:10 <SignX> Ok, an interpreter for a turing complete language sounds good and I assume brainfuck is turing complete?
20:19:20 <fizzie> There are some "standard" languages/systems for showing TC-ness. BCT, Brainfuck and Unlambda (well, S and K), perhaps? And maybe the two-counter Minsky machine.
20:19:53 <fizzie> Brainfuck is probably the most popular one.
20:20:31 <SignX> Ok, I suppose I first have to learn Brainfuck, then...
20:22:02 <fizzie> You don't have to know the tricks and conventions of "practical Brainfuck programming" to implement it, just the basics; and those are quite simple.
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20:26:41 <fizzie> (Depending on your target language, something else than Brainfuck can be easier.)
20:27:54 <b_jonas> hehe, "practical brainfuck programming"
20:29:08 <fizzie> You know, the kind of things you need to know to get your MCBPs (Microsoft Certified Brainfuck Professional).
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21:13:15 <FireFly> fungot: and here I thought Bike was a *bi*cycle...
21:13:15 <fungot> FireFly: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
21:15:19 <Bike> are you /nick'd "human"? no? WEIRD
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21:24:14 <fizzie> fungot: Just Google it, I'm sure there's a photo.
21:24:14 <fungot> fizzie: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
21:24:34 <fizzie> Spooky, but our only hope.
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21:35:39 <zzo38> I have the algorithm for deciding shift states to encode Z-machine text strings, but now I want to describe it in a plain text and I am a bit confused how to do that in a good way.
21:37:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: use words like "dynamical programming algorithm" and "nondeterministic finite state translator" and stuff like that
21:37:32 <zzo38> That doesn't explain the algorithm though.
21:38:19 <b_jonas> Bike: http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=759
21:38:36 <zzo38> I have both a Haskell code and a C code. The Haskell code is: addCharCost ccm costs ch = (\s2 -> minimum ((\s1 -> ccm s1 s2 ch + (costs !! s1)) <$> states)) <$> states; stringCost ccm (c : cs) = foldl' (addCharCost ccm) (flip (ccm 0) c <$> states) cs; bestCharCost ccm costs ch = (\s2 -> minimumBy (on compare snd) ((\s1 -> let { (a, b) = costs !! s1; } in (s1 : a, ccm s1 s2 ch + b)) <$> states)) <$> states; bestCost ccm (c : cs) = first reverse . mi
21:39:14 <b_jonas> (that comes back as a plot point in strip 764)
21:39:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: too long for a line
21:39:35 <zzo38> I mean I like to write a pseudocode with explanations
21:40:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: Which one did you miss?
21:41:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's truncated after first reverse . mi
21:41:33 <zzo38> bestCost ccm (c : cs) = first reverse . minimumBy (on compare snd) . map (\(a, (b, c)) -> (a : b, c)) . zip [0..] $ foldl' (bestCharCost ccm) ((,) [] . flip (ccm 0) c <$> states) cs;
21:42:00 <b_jonas> good. I won't try to understand that now though
21:53:18 <elliott> b_jonas: I am shocked that anyone has actually read those comics
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21:59:35 <b_jonas> elliott: what? I love it! sure, part of it is prejudice, because it's the webcomic that's introduced me to the world of webcomics, but still.
21:59:42 <b_jonas> elliott: why are you shocked?
22:00:02 <b_jonas> also, some people read the weirdest things on the internet
22:00:10 <elliott> because, like, of all the curiosities I found poking around qntm.org years ago... :p
22:00:21 <b_jonas> that's from way before qntm
22:00:34 <b_jonas> it's had like two different urls before qntm even started to exist
22:02:14 <b_jonas> elliott: also, it's a completed webcomic strip. how many of those do you know?
22:03:02 <elliott> the world would be a better place if more webcomics stopped being produced, yes :P
22:03:21 <b_jonas> no no, just stopping to be produced doesn't make a _completed_ webcomic
22:03:29 <b_jonas> I know lots of stalled or abandonned webcomics
22:04:33 <b_jonas> besides stickmanstickman, there's oneoverzero (which was completed _before_ stickmanstickman), irregular webcomics, casey and andy, triangle and robert, and I think that's about all
22:04:54 <b_jonas> (there's also comics on indefinite hiatuses)
22:05:10 <b_jonas> (well, that's the same as "stalled" only the author has put up a note to that effect)
22:05:42 <b_jonas> wow, so there's quite a few
22:06:26 <elliott> does CAD count? I'm joking; please don't shoot me.
22:06:48 <b_jonas> elliott: hmm, maybe. I didn't follow CAD much so I can't tell. you could also ask about userfriendly.
22:07:06 <elliott> I guess CAD more "imploded under the weight of its own horror".
22:07:15 <elliott> jesus christ, is userfriendly still a thing
22:07:46 <b_jonas> maybe if a comic has never had a coherent plot, then there's not much point asking if it's completed
22:08:17 <b_jonas> but stickmanstickman, oneoverzero, irregular webcomics, casey and andy, ozy and millie all have finales that are actually a good closure
22:08:50 <b_jonas> and I sure hope OoTS will be completed one day within my lifetime in a similar way
22:09:58 <fizzie> I think I've removed a couple of finished ones from my list, but I haven't kept track.
22:10:02 <elliott> tempted to say problem sleuth but it would just be a bitter, bitter homestuck joke
22:11:01 <b_jonas> then of course Darths and Droids has a good chance to run to completion too, because they're dedicated, but it's sort of dependent on how many sequels Disney makes to the movie
22:12:21 <b_jonas> And I guess QC has at least some chance to eventually get completed.
22:12:33 <fizzie> b_jonas: "DM of the Rings" got completed.
22:12:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh true! I forgot about that
22:14:25 <b_jonas> (well, of course there's a selection bias. there's lots of comic strips abandonned after a few dozen strips that nobody knows about)
22:14:31 <fizzie> Wikipedia has a "List of webcomics" but no "List of completed webcomics". Though the former does have ending dates for some.
22:14:47 <fizzie> They're all "notable", according to the start of the article.
22:15:09 <b_jonas> there's lots of huge lists of webcomics. I can link a few if you want.
22:15:34 <fizzie> Bruno has apparently concluded "properly".
22:16:22 <fizzie> (I didn't read it, but I had come across it.)
22:18:08 <zzo38> There is also level20.tex which is incomplete, but that is a book and not a webcomic, but nevertheless it is having the notifications of being updated. Other than that, it doesn't count, of course.
22:18:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Just because it is abandoned after a few dozen strips, still it might be possible that many people know about it, actually (although I don't know how common this is?)
22:19:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: Also 8-Bit Theater.
22:19:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's completed? I never really got into that comic
22:20:04 <fizzie> It was completed in 2010.
22:20:11 <fizzie> "8-Bit Theater is a completed sprite comic created by Brian Clevinger, and published in 1,225 episodes from March 2, 2001 to June 1, 2010."
22:20:26 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Concluded_webcomics "The following 22 pages are in this category, out of 22 total."
22:20:38 <b_jonas> and what's the next project of its author?
22:20:48 <fizzie> Oh, I completely forgot A Miracle of Science, I read that.
22:21:52 <fizzie> I'll leave it to you to verify that all those 22 concluded ones have "properly" concluded.
22:21:58 <b_jonas> do any newspaper comics like Garfield or Calvin and Hobbes count as completed?
22:23:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: that category is almost certainly incomplete
22:23:16 <b_jonas> it's missing many that we've mentioned
22:23:50 <zzo38> I think newspaper comics probably count as news comics instead of web comics
22:24:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, they don't count as webcomics
22:24:30 <b_jonas> just wondering if they count as completed
22:26:15 <elliott> pretty sure garfield is, sadly, still running
22:26:18 <zzo38> I don't know; I don't read newspaper much
22:26:26 <zzo38> And not all newspaper include all of the comics anyways
22:29:12 <coppro> no newspaper includes all the comics
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23:22:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Didn't you show me before the Haskell code to figure out the best shift codes to use to encode a Z-machine string? I put it into a C code, and now I am making a document of it, too
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23:22:55 <oerjan> i remember we discussed that
23:23:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 8h 43m 36s ago: Not all welding masks are created equal; in theory you can replace a stack of five shade #X masks with a single shade #Y mask, where Y=5*X-4. (It's a logarithmic scale with an offset.)
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00:40:26 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> There are some "standard" languages/systems for showing TC-ness. BCT, Brainfuck and Unlambda (well, S and K), perhaps? And maybe the two-counter Minsky machine. <-- i've also had some luck with the underload :()^ fragment
00:40:43 <oerjan> after i first proved that it was TC
00:41:51 <Taneb> That was what you used for Fueue initially, right?
00:42:40 <oerjan> and also i got FALSE as a corollary, since it has those commands
00:43:21 <oerjan> oh and i implemented _all_ of underload in emmental.
00:45:30 <oerjan> that was a fun way of doing it, each character (with a few control char exceptions for temporary storage) were rewritten to implement themselves as underload commands, in three different modes
00:47:42 <oerjan> direct execution mode, quoting mode (started by '(' and halted by ')') and printing mode (used by S so that printing string was simply running it as commands in that mode)
00:48:02 <zzo38> Figuring out what shift codes to use isn't the only thing needed to compress Z-machine text. There is also figuring out how to fill up the frequent words table, and doing suffix optimization.
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02:05:23 <Sgeo> zzo38: do you like NES songs, or am I imagining that you're the sort of person who would like those?
02:06:06 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/gravityfalls/comments/2kdre0/since_people_are_liking_gravity_falls_8bit/
02:08:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have a .NSF music playing right now in my computer, and I have also made some such music files myself too.
02:09:37 <Sgeo> zzo38: see my link for a particular theme that someone made an nsf version of
02:11:57 <zzo38> OK I downloaded this file, but why shouldn't you just make a direct link?
02:15:33 <Sgeo> :) didn't think of making a direct link
02:16:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you have any idea of how I can automatically fill up the frequent words table?
02:27:34 <oerjan> sounds like you'd need to calculate word frequencies of actual use...
02:28:22 <zzo38> They don't necessarily have to be single words though; they can be any string.
02:29:12 <zzo38> If they are in that table, then any non-fword string that contains them can use only two Z-characters to reference something in the frequent words table (shift state is irrelevant).
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02:55:57 <Sgeo> Blah, registered
02:57:15 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, and if you want to see other .NSF musics, you can look at Famicompo; they have a lot.
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03:31:45 <Sgeo> It seems to me that although Scala often looks like you're defining custom syntax, it's possible to use the same stuff as a normal function call, meaning that other languages would be able to use even the DSLy things that Scala lets you define, which is kind of cool
03:32:23 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not so much with implicits
03:33:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Another thing that complicates it is length of words, shift states, and profitability. There are at most 96 fwords, although some of them may be manually defined or dynamically set up, or possibly some slots might be unused. You might also see my "Tricky Document" for a few details.
03:40:39 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/tricky.txt
03:55:35 <oerjan> @ask int-e ok how the hell did you and henkma find essentially the same insanely clever trick for swap the characters (and it's not _much_ of a cheat, it only requires the word to be at least 4 chars long...)
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04:17:34 <zzo38> Do you think it is a bit strange that optimizing a SET instruction in XZIP and YZIP sometimes requires factorization of numbers?
04:20:31 <zzo38> (But only if the number you want to set it to is bigger than 510)
04:21:17 <zzo38> I have once seen a document that used the phrase "almost bigger than" to mean "greater than or equal to".
04:35:16 <Sgeo> Not a native English speaker?
04:37:07 <zzo38> I think the document was probably written by Chinese people, since it was a document about use of Chinese typing on Linux, and it is a part of a book which also contains a lot of other documents relating to Linux.
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04:48:06 <zzo38> Infocom somehow designed the Z-machine in such a way that a lot of optimizations and other tricks are possible that Infocom has probably never even considered by themself.
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05:04:31 <elliott> oerjan: heh what is the trick?
05:08:16 <Sgeo> The Scala community is kind of scary https://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1g50g5/announcing_lift_25/
05:11:43 <J_Arcane> "create a new CSS output class for simulating microelectrical systems" WHY
05:11:51 <J_Arcane> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Fxos_on_RaspberryPi
05:13:32 <zzo38> I am guessing that they might want to program the GPIO by the use of CSS for some strange reasons?
05:13:50 <zzo38> It doesn't make much sense to me.
05:14:39 <J_Arcane> this is what comes of the web-everything world. :P
05:15:42 <zzo38> There are a lot of ways to program the GPIO in RaspberryPi, in most of the provided programming languages including shell scripts and Mathematica.
05:28:21 <oerjan> elliott: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Swap+The+Characters/henkma_1414152474&hs
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06:14:42 <drdanmaku> J_Arcane: yeah, this sentence doesn't actually seem coherent to me: "DOM/CSS would enable programmers to develop robotics etc. by building a declarative model of a reactive system"
06:15:12 <drdanmaku> i seriously doubt the document object model is up to that taks
06:15:18 <zzo38> I also don't see how CSS can possibly help.
06:15:37 <zzo38> (Or how DOM can possibly help, either.)
06:20:00 <Bike> to clothe the robot.
06:36:46 <zzo38> Did you see this "Tricky Document"?
06:47:16 <fizzie> oerjan: I had already written "or perhaps minimized Underload" in my input line, but then thought it might just confuse matters.
06:53:37 <fizzie> Also: crafty Haskell character-swapping trick is crafty.
07:00:03 <fizzie> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Swap+The+Characters/tails_1414358976&sed was also very clever.
07:02:07 <fizzie> It works like http://sprunge.us/fCXR (where X denotes \x09 and spaces converted to _ for visibility); I just had something far more explicit about swapping two letters.
07:03:33 <oerjan> fizzie: huh that looks like they're using sed as if it were thue
07:05:21 <ais523> thue with backreferences would probably be a lot easier to write
07:05:30 <ais523> and possibly more powerful in the computational class sense?
07:05:41 <ais523> hmm, actually, I have a new definition, not sure what to call it yet
07:05:47 <fizzie> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Swap+The+Characters/teebee_1413233661&sed was basically what I wrote, except I didn't know you can have an empty label name like that, and "t" will then jump to that instead of end-of-script.
07:06:00 <ais523> "if a problem can be solved in language A in O(P) for any function P, it can also be solved in O(P) in language B"
07:07:16 <ais523> sort-of similar to "this language has a nonzero eigeneratio", but between languages rather than within one
07:13:16 <zzo38> I looked at BANCStar and BANCNova stuff, and believe it contains some mistakes. From the PDF as well as the code at http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html I can figure some things they didn't mention. I believe that instruction 8550 is a kind of computed GOTO to an absolute address. Instruction 8400 then seems to mean to store the address of the instruction after the next one into variables numbered 1908 and 1909.
07:13:26 <zzo38> There also seems to be several other built-in variables with special purposes.
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07:19:16 <zzo38> And I think they are actually PC color codes and not ANSI color codes?
07:26:12 <b_jonas> with bits 0 and 2 swapped?
07:26:14 <oerjan> oh hum, empty label you say?
07:26:31 <b_jonas> isn't there also a third scheme also by the way?
07:28:21 <oerjan> fizzie: thanks for saving me 2 chars on http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Asteriks+and+Obeliks+FIXED :P
07:30:56 <zzo38> Possibly some of the date operations in BANCStar such as "Future date 360" might have something to do with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_count_convention
07:33:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40697&oldid=40658 * Zzo38 * (+332)
07:34:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: quite likely. I think the rules for paying social security here are a fixed sum for full month, or, for a partial month, 1/30 of that sum for each day.
07:38:22 <b_jonas> there's all kind of crazy rules and conventions that are not even properly documented, so only people working in the same area know about them (or even they don't)
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07:39:50 <zzo38> It also kind of looks like it may have been meant to be useful for coding manually, considering how powers of ten are commonly used in the instruction encodings, the text rather than binary format, and other things.
07:41:16 <zzo38> The screen generator might just have been something they added afterward, because they did not want to release it as it is.
07:41:53 <b_jonas> mind you, I'm the kind of person who spends time automating lots of things that were supposed to be useful manually
07:42:27 <zzo38> Even if it useful manually doesn't necessarily mean it won't be useful automatically, too.
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07:43:04 <b_jonas> and of course that's the general direction computing stuff evolves in time
07:43:14 <b_jonas> people used to write lots of machine code or assembly manually
07:43:32 <zzo38> I still do sometimes
07:43:47 <zzo38> Such as when writing program for Famicom
07:43:51 <b_jonas> but still people automate it much more these days
07:44:03 <b_jonas> with C compilers and even more complicated compilers
07:44:35 <zzo38> Even optimizing ones sometimes omit some optimizations that can be done manually
07:45:42 <zzo38> If I want to write a program to target a specific computer (or VM) then assembly language can be used; it is useful for such a situation.
07:46:00 <b_jonas> the general idea is that you write the source code in a sane way, then if the result doesn't have enough performance, you find the bottlenecks, and optimize those either at source level or replacing some of the parts with more nonportable stuff or straight assembly
07:46:48 <b_jonas> but even if I never write straight assembly, it's worth to understand how the computer works at low level to know how to write good programs in source form
07:47:05 <zzo38> But, different computers can work in different way.
07:47:26 <b_jonas> it's just that sometimes I think we're overdoing that, trying to teach too much of the low-level stuff to the young students and scaring them away
07:47:34 <Lymia> [lymia@localhost ~/.steam/steam/SteamApps/common/Sid Meier's Civilization V]$ strings Civ5XP | grep XMLSerializer
07:47:34 <Lymia> _ZN8Database13XMLSerializer14LoadFromMemoryEPKwPcj
07:47:34 <Lymia> _ZN8Database13XMLSerializer17InsertOrIgnoreRowERNS_13FXmlTraverserERNS_12ResultsCacheEPKcj
07:47:36 <Lymia> Someone dun goofed.
07:47:37 <b_jonas> I think we should try to teach more of the high-level stuff first
07:47:49 <b_jonas> at least to our mathematicians
07:47:57 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm tired, and somehow thought you were teaching your students BANCstar
07:48:12 <zzo38> I don't know entirely, but I think we can learn all of them.
07:48:19 <ais523> Lymia: why is mangled function names coming up in strings surprising?
07:48:39 <Lymia> ais523, because this is full symbol information.
07:48:41 <b_jonas> though if we got an interpreter for it, we could try :-)
07:49:32 <zzo38> Program can also be written targeting a VM, too; even I write programs for Famicom even though I do not actually have a Famicom.
07:49:56 <Lymia> "Database::XMLSerializer::InsertOrIgnoreRow(Database::FXmlTraverser&, Database::ResultsCache&, char const*, unsigned int)" < AFAIK, this is not in any public .h file, even in the headers given for modders.
07:50:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dynamicdispatch * New user account
07:55:59 <oerjan> i smell an OO esolang in the works
07:56:51 <fizzie> Lymia: Google finds it in https://github.com/Gedemon/Civ5-DLL/blob/master/CvGameDatabase/include/XmlSerializer.h but maybe that's just someone's reverse-engineering.
07:56:53 <ais523> or particularly creative spam
07:56:56 <ais523> or both simultaneously
07:58:12 <Lymia> "FGXModelComponentBuilder_Granny<CvLeaderHeadFallbackRendererContext<CvLeaderHeadBuilderContext> >::ExtendSurfaceFromModel(FGXModelComponentBuilder_Granny<CvLeaderHeadFallbackRendererContext<CvLeaderHeadBuilderContext> >::FGXModelMeshData&, unsigned int)"
07:59:02 <Lymia> I just looked for a random renderer symbol
07:59:41 <fizzie> I guess it could be a "code name" for one of the leaderpeople or whatever Civ V has.
07:59:45 <ais523> fwiw, I ship NH4 with debug symbols
07:59:46 <oerjan> the grandmother of all ModelComponentBuilders
07:59:50 <ais523> I think, it's hard to tell on Windows
08:00:34 <Lymia> LeaderHead is what they call the civilization diplomacy screen, I know that.
08:01:43 <Lymia> But _Granny i have no idea
08:02:22 <fizzie> Well, is there an old female leader-head?
08:02:33 <Lymia> Apparently it's what they call some rendering SDK component? "Port/SDKs/Granny/source/granny_mesh.cpp" shows up in strings
08:03:37 <fizzie> There's a "Granny Editor for Civ 5", so I guess it's something more general then.
08:04:10 <fizzie> "Gra" from "graphics", perhaps.
08:04:54 <fizzie> http://www.radgametools.com/granny.html oh
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08:27:04 <mroman> sometimes it ping timeouts
08:27:25 <mroman> but you're welcome to try to crash it
08:27:33 <mroman> as long as you don't damage the underlying server
08:27:36 <mroman> that wouldn't be so nice
08:28:08 * oerjan has forgotten how it was crashed last time, anyhow
08:28:23 <mroman> oerjan: by making it print "hi there\rQUIT :quit"
08:28:36 <oerjan> i remembered it was hilarious
08:28:38 <mroman> because lines was based on \r\n
08:28:46 <mroman> and I didn't know IRC accepts \r as a newline
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08:35:42 <mroman> http://webpolicy.org/2014/10/24/how-verizons-advertising-header-works/
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09:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40698&oldid=40691 * TomPN * (+165) /* Line functions */
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09:34:33 <Taneb> I am having a sudden crisis of faith.
09:34:49 <Taneb> What is the imperfect first person of to be?#
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09:37:35 <fizzie> "Imperfect meanings in English are expressed in different ways depending on whether the event is continuous or habitual. -- However certain verbs that express state rather than action do not mark the progressive aspect (see Uses of English verb forms: Progressive); in these cases the simple past tense is used instead: "He was hungry"; "We knew what to do next."" (Wikipedia)
09:38:02 <Taneb> My phone doesn't want to admit that is a word
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09:38:35 <Taneb> It's set to italian for some reason
09:38:43 <ais523> fizzie: and because of that, "was being" is typically only used to construct passives
09:38:59 <ais523> presumably it's used for passives because it would be unused otherwise?
09:39:55 <fizzie> Sorry, I thought about "was" too much and now it lost all meaning.
09:40:14 <elliott> ais523: you can probably revert that revert now that TomPN has edited without replying to the talk page message :p
09:40:38 <ais523> elliott: right, I'd prefer someone else to do it because appearances, though
09:40:47 <elliott> right, well, see, you're involved and I'm not
09:41:25 <ais523> elliott: but everything I've learned from Wikipedia says otherwise
09:41:53 <fizzie> I'm a bit suspicious of that edit, since you still can't nest loops, and I'm not sure whether "the cell -- serves as a loop counter" means it's the (varying) value of the cell, or its initial value at the begin loop instruction.
09:42:08 <elliott> oh, that edit was attempting to make it more TC?
09:42:11 <elliott> I didn't really read it <_<
09:42:37 <ais523> well it's capable of reading memory now
09:42:46 <ais523> not sure if it's capable of /usefully/ reading memory
09:42:50 <ais523> but TCness is a very low bar
09:43:07 <ais523> oh no, still always halts
09:43:10 <b_jonas> TCness isn't even the goal
09:43:19 <b_jonas> let me see what he changed
09:43:32 <ais523> b_jonas: sure, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Splinter is an interesting, intentionally-sub-TC language
09:44:24 <b_jonas> ah, he's edited half an hour ago
09:44:36 <b_jonas> then we can still hope he'll read my message and try to understadn it
09:44:44 <ais523> did you send it to user talk?
09:45:50 <ais523> ever since Wikipedia got rid of the Orange Bar of Doom, it's needed to use smaller wikis like Esolang to survive
09:46:04 <b_jonas> "If X is zero, the cell affected by the most recent increase, decrease or input command serves as a loop counter. When the loop counter reaches zero, the loop stops." wait, so he tries to make this something like the bf left bracket command?
09:46:29 <ais523> (although they did make its replacement also orange, after a relatively large petition, i.e. 100+)
09:46:47 <ais523> it's not a while loop, though
09:46:50 <b_jonas> I think it's like the left bracket now, except it may choose a cell different from the one under the finger
09:46:53 <b_jonas> but I think it's a while loop
09:46:53 <ais523> it's a primitive recursive loop
09:46:58 <b_jonas> I think it re-reads the counter
09:47:06 <b_jonas> I think that's trying to be like brainfuck
09:47:10 <b_jonas> you have to decrease explicitly
09:47:23 <ais523> oh, right, not automatically changing
09:47:31 <ais523> it's a counter that might not actually count
09:47:35 <ais523> just like the instruction tape that holds data
09:47:36 <b_jonas> I admit the description is still unclear
09:47:40 <b_jonas> so I might be misinterpreting it
09:48:36 <ais523> OK, so now it's basically BF with max nesting depth 1
09:48:41 <ais523> which has definitely been posted before
09:48:49 <ais523> and which I think is generally believed sub-TC (not proven, though)
09:49:16 <b_jonas> oh, he still has loops not nestable
09:49:25 <b_jonas> I'd say wait a bit more, he may edit still
09:49:30 <fizzie> Oh, my interpretation was that it automatically decrements by one, but you can also modify the value.
09:49:41 <ais523> mine was that it looks at the value at the start of the loop, and loops that many times
09:49:46 <ais523> this is worse than agora :-(
09:49:50 <fizzie> That was my second guess.
09:50:30 <fizzie> Also I'm uncertain on whether the cell it looks at (if it's not read only at start) changes if you do an "increase, decrease or input command" within the loop to some other cell.
09:50:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think it changes, but I'm not sure
09:51:03 <fizzie> As in, whether you can write the equivalent of ,[>,] with it.
09:52:06 <b_jonas> no nested loops still sucks
09:52:11 <b_jonas> you can't easily make conditionals
09:52:45 <b_jonas> it might be possible if the data tape overlaps with the counter part (tenor or note value) of the instructions, but I'm not sure that's enough
09:53:35 <b_jonas> have you figured out yet how the example program is supposed tow ork?
09:54:37 <b_jonas> where's the announcer bot?
09:54:51 <fizzie> I think it's supposed to have E instead of C in the example program.
09:55:30 <fizzie> As in, "+++++ +++++++ ." is a brainfuck program that "adds 5 and 7 together".
09:57:14 <ais523> well, if you can only read a finite number of cells ever
09:57:31 <ais523> actually, isn't that already the case with one-loop BF?
09:57:36 <ais523> you have an entropy rule
09:57:46 <ais523> for each loop, either it's balanced and thus is an FSM
09:58:11 <ais523> or it's unbalanced, and thus runs off the end of the area of the tape that's been previously touched (or else provably enters an infinite loop)
09:58:16 <ais523> thus, one-loop BF is sub-TC
09:58:33 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if two-nest were TC, though, especially with bignums
09:59:57 <b_jonas> ais523: why can't it do useful stuff if it's unbalanced?
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10:00:14 <b_jonas> each iteration can still share some cells with the previous iteration
10:00:36 <ais523> b_jonas: if it's one-nest, basically because it can only read each cell once, and that just gives a continue/don't continue indication
10:00:51 <ais523> and in particular, eventually it'll end up beyond the initialized area
10:01:01 <ais523> like, only a finite number of cells can have changed before the loop starts
10:01:04 <ais523> eventually, you get pat them
10:01:10 <ais523> now you're limited to infinite loop or exiting the loop
10:01:16 <ais523> and either is irreversible
10:01:33 <ais523> thus, any one-nest BF program can be proved either to halt, or to not halt
10:01:39 <ais523> thus, one-nest BF is sub-TC
10:02:55 <b_jonas> you're saying that the value of the new cells can't depend on the value of the cells inherited from previous iterations?
10:05:01 <b_jonas> though it could still be interesting if there's an input statement in the loop and it could run some interesting finite state manchine on the input
10:06:36 <fizzie> I'm a bit curious about the reasons for forbidding the nesting of loops in this one.
10:06:53 <ais523> implementation difficulty?
10:08:54 <b_jonas> maybe it should allow nesting, but only loops of shorter note values can occurr inside a loop?
10:09:49 <ais523> well, real music allows nested loops
10:09:57 <ais523> basically because it has a goto
10:10:09 <ais523> like DO COME FROM (4) ONCE in INTERCAL
10:11:23 <b_jonas> are real music loops bounded?
10:12:00 <ais523> it's very rare for them to repeat more than twice (even rarer to repeat /less/ than twice…)
10:12:16 <ais523> although there is syntax for it, it's typically only used in highly repetitive songs
10:13:19 <ais523> I admit that I've never played an infinitely long song
10:13:24 <ais523> so I don't know if there's syntax for that
10:17:18 <b_jonas> No, I'm quite sure there are types of musics where three encores is normal,
10:17:34 <b_jonas> and I didn't ask for infinitely long, only potentially unbounded length,
10:18:05 <fizzie> That reminds one immediately of the well-known http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/arvindn/misc/knuth_song_complexity.pdf
10:18:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, exactly (and I think there's a sequel)
10:18:29 <fizzie> I seem to recall so too.
10:20:55 <b_jonas> encores can be conditional loops, right?
10:20:59 <ais523> b_jonas: well, most songs are also deterministic
10:21:03 <ais523> encores tend not to be notated
10:21:07 <b_jonas> they might be bounded though
10:21:26 <b_jonas> or when they are, they aren't really encores, they're just called that
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10:24:25 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen that paper before, but I'm reading it anyway
10:25:05 <ais523> actually, what's more surprising is that he actually got it published in a well-known journal
10:25:15 <ais523> would be interesting to see the peer reviews
10:26:10 <b_jonas> ais523: it does say "special section". it might not be a peer-reviewed article.
10:26:35 <ais523> the "we normally wouldn't publish this, but you can't exactly say no to Knuth" section?
10:28:08 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I think more like "any letters at the journal editor's whim, as long as it's less than 20% of the size of the printed journal, and the authors can't count it as an article for grant or cv purposes"
10:29:14 <b_jonas> let's see what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complexity_of_Songs says
10:30:59 <ais523> it calls it a journal article, without qualification
10:33:03 <b_jonas> I guess to know for sure you'd have to get the journal, but I don't much care
10:33:16 <fizzie> Opening the Table of Contents for the journal issue in question crashes my Chrome.
10:33:26 <b_jonas> hmm, "előnyom" is a real word? it looks riddiculous. some mathematicians invent the craziest words.
10:34:41 <ais523> it looks a little more sensible if you assume it's Hungarian
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10:34:50 <b_jonas> it is definitely Hungarian
10:34:58 <b_jonas> it's in a Hungarian sentence
10:35:44 <b_jonas> "A GL(n) Hecke-Maass-csúcsformákra vonatkozó sup-norma szubkonvexitási probléma az előnyom-formula és egy jól megválasztott amplifikáció után egy egyszerűen megfogalmazható és önmagában is érdekes mátrix-leszámolási problémára vezet: arra, hogy egy szép (prímekkel paraméterezett) számelméleti tulajdonsággal bíró egész mátrixból nincs túl sok." -- totally something only a mathematician would write, and even they would wr
10:35:57 <ais523> you were cut off; "even they would wr"
10:36:06 <b_jonas> and even they would write it only in an abstract
10:36:17 <fizzie> Other CACM "special section" work seems rather serious, at least.
10:37:08 <ais523> http://web.archive.org/web/20010317221900/http://web14.compaq.com/falco/detail.asp?FAQnum=FAQ2859
10:37:26 <ais523> hmm, that snapshot dates from 2001; apparently the page dates from 1999
10:37:29 <ais523> that is worryingly recent
10:37:40 <ais523> or, alternatively, worryingly far back, depending on your point of view
10:39:24 <fizzie> "The Communications magazine consists primarily of six main editorial sections: News, Viewpoints, Practice, Review Articles, Contributed Articles, and Research Highlights. -- the selection criteria and editorial process for articles varies by section --"
10:41:18 <fizzie> Only some of the sections involve peer review, so there's quite a lot of non-peer-reviewed material in Communications.
10:42:06 <fizzie> Also there's nowadays a "Last Byte" section that "consists of lighter-fare content that will appear as both regularly appearing columns, such as Q&As, futurist articles dealing with computing, and mathematical puzzles for those who like a good challenge", that's probably the sort of section the song paper was in.
10:44:27 <b_jonas> we should use ".bf" as a filename extension for both brainfuck and befunge
10:45:19 <ais523> b_jonas: I normally use .pro for Prolog, but I used .pl for violin
10:45:27 <ais523> because extension clashes seemed appropriate
10:46:05 <b_jonas> I was thinking I should just use ".pm" for perl, but never got into the habit
10:46:13 <b_jonas> as in, ".pm" for perl programs too
10:49:31 <ais523> reverse assignment calculator for INTERCAL
10:49:42 <ais523> also known as the only program that can successfully figure out what an INTERCAL calculate statement does
10:50:02 <ais523> (although if the case has enough corners, it runs out of memory or just sits there for longer than you're prepared to wait)
10:50:38 <ais523> there's a better description in the docs
10:50:44 <ais523> which are on usenet, in a sharball
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11:24:42 <ais523> what's a good place to talk about chown(2) giveaway?
11:25:01 <ais523> (in particular, is here appropriate? it's on-common-topic-spectrum, but I'm not sure if anyone cares)
11:26:55 <b_jonas> ais523: um... dunno, maybe a channel for the operating system where you want to do that
11:27:24 <ais523> well the basic concepts transcend OS
11:27:33 <ais523> in particular, there's a time where I would have needed to do that at work
11:27:48 <ais523> I managed to go an entire year via recycling existing files that already had the right permissions, but it was crzy
11:27:59 <ais523> OTOH, it's considered a security loophole, and I understand some of the reasons why
11:28:12 <fizzie> I seem to recall some talk about that being a quota-evasion trick somewhere.
11:28:21 <ais523> so I was wondering, if you could only chown() away files that you'd have write access to after the chown, would it be exploitable?
11:28:30 <ais523> fizzie: oh, quota, interesting
11:28:57 <ais523> I was thinking of the exploit where you screw around with symlinks so that a path is insecure, but chown them to the person you're attacking just before they check
11:29:11 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm saying OS channel because even though just plain chown giveaway might not be possible, there might be some OS-dependent (or even dependent on stuff more detailed than the OS) stuff that could help you in what you want
11:29:14 <ais523> so that software they run thinks it's set up intentionally
11:29:37 <fizzie> "System III and System V allow a user to give away files; that is, the owner of a file may change its user ID to anything. This is a serious problem for implementations that are intended to meet government security regulations. Version 7 and 4.3 BSD permit only the superuser to change the user ID of a file. Some government agencies (usually not ones concerned directly with security) find this ...
11:29:43 <fizzie> ... limitation too confining. This volume of POSIX.1-2008 uses may to permit secure implementations while not disallowing System V."
11:30:03 <fizzie> The "some government agencies" part sounds like a dig.
11:31:23 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want to chown large files (or something else that's not so easy to just recreate as a copy by the dest user), could you try to use a demon running as root that you can ask to chown giveaway files only in some particular directory?
11:31:37 <ais523> it'd be nice if someone documented what the security implications actually /were/
11:31:47 <ais523> I can't find anything in a search, but then I websearch so rarely I'm pretty bad at it
11:31:56 <ais523> b_jonas: I wasn't a sysadmin, in this case
11:31:58 <b_jonas> ais523: I haven't really met this problem, I usually just copied files so the copy is created by the destination user
11:32:09 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but ask a sysadmin
11:32:10 <ais523> actually, all I needed for this was setgid giveaway
11:32:18 <ais523> so I could have asked for a setgid directory to create files in
11:32:54 <ais523> (the specific problem: I need to create files that I can edit and that the web server can read, but shouldn't have permissions to read everything that the web server can)
11:33:49 <fizzie> Sounds like a problem that's solvable by adding an additional group, and making both you and the web server have that as one of the supplementary groups.
11:33:59 <b_jonas> ais523: could you just create a separate group used only for this task and have both you and the webserver be in that group?
11:34:35 <b_jonas> ais523: alternately, add a demon for the web server that you can ask to create those files; or add a demon for your username that the webserver user can run and read your files to copy them
11:34:41 <ais523> fizzie: b_jonas: basically I'm looking for a situation that doesn't require changing /etc/passwd or /etc/group, which are presumably working up to this point
11:35:16 <Jafet> We solve this by running multiple web servers.
11:35:19 <b_jonas> ais523: well, I think you need to change _something_ to allow this. it could be sudoers or something.
11:36:03 <ais523> with a rule of "you can chown/chgrp giveaway files as long as you would maintain write access to them afterwards", all the exploits I can think of fail, yet I could give the webserver its files just fine
11:36:28 <ais523> (basically, the reasoning is that any checks that would be fooled by apparently owning the file, won't be fooled if someone else can write it)
11:36:35 <b_jonas> ais523: that still probably allows quota exploits at least, mind you, just linking other users' files also does that
11:36:50 <b_jonas> and I think it has other problem stoo
11:37:06 <fizzie> ais523: Alternatively, POSIX ACLs.
11:37:16 <fizzie> "setfacl -m u:webserveruser:r your.file" or some such.
11:37:21 <b_jonas> ais523: doesn't that have the problem that you can accidentally create files you can't delete?
11:37:25 <ais523> from the Agora point of view, chown giveaway's exploitable because you could use it to push someone else overquota
11:37:41 <ais523> b_jonas: I did that a couple of days ago, on Windows
11:37:50 <ais523> Windows ACLs are a mess in all sorts of ways
11:38:06 <Jafet> Windows is already perfectly happy to do that on your behalf
11:38:21 <b_jonas> also, can I assume that you can't give away files with the setuid or setgid bit set, right?
11:38:27 <ais523> b_jonas: I didn't mention it here
11:38:39 <ais523> and it's normally assumed that giving away a file clears the sgid/suid bits
11:38:51 <ais523> anyway, here's the thing that really confused me
11:38:58 <fizzie> Giving an additional user ACL read permissions won't affect ownership, so is generally allowed.
11:38:59 <ais523> I had a perfectly normal .png file
11:39:06 <elliott> ais523: on BSD, you wouldn't need a setgid directory
11:39:09 <elliott> (all directories are setgid)
11:39:09 <b_jonas> ais523: would this apply only to regular files?
11:39:18 <ais523> with read permission to the file, my program couldn't read it, nor could Windows' image viewer thing
11:39:24 <ais523> with read+execute permission, now it reads fine
11:39:34 <ais523> and sure enough, almost all files have read+execute in default permissions
11:39:47 <ais523> so what I don't get is, why is the execute permission required for reading?
11:39:50 <b_jonas> ais523: on what file system?
11:40:03 <ais523> whatever ships with windows 8.1, presumably ntfs
11:40:29 <b_jonas> and you didn't change the perm of the directory, right?
11:40:42 <elliott> windows has execute permissions?
11:40:44 <ais523> directory perms were default for ProgramData
11:40:49 <ais523> elliott: it has like 17 permissions for each file
11:41:02 <ais523> many of which seem to be misnamed or mislabeled
11:41:11 <ais523> and you set them via a sort-of bitfield that makes no sense
11:41:48 <fizzie> Actually, I think I used ACLs for something involving a somewhat similar web server thing. I think it was a directory I wanted to let the web server write to, without making it globally writable, and we didn't share any groups.
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11:43:11 <fizzie> Right, there it is; the "queue" directory has an extra u:apache:rwx entry.
11:44:18 <fizzie> ls shows "non-standard" ACLs as a '+' after the regular ?rwxrwxrwx permissions line.
11:46:05 <ais523> I find POSIX permissions are normally flexible enough to handle any setup you want, in an esolangy sort of way
11:46:16 <ais523> as in, there's some sequence of actions you can do, but it's often convoluted and makes no sense
11:46:52 <fizzie> ACL's are arguably part of "POSIX permissions", since they're in POSIX and they're about permissions.
11:47:24 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, that's true for some other parts of unix too
11:47:58 <ais523> fizzie: the Cygwin people have a long article about mapping POSIX octal permissions to Windows permissions
11:48:13 <ais523> and in particular, how they handle the case of u-w,g+w
11:48:28 <ais523> which apparently can be represented with Windows ACLs, but breaks if the GUI tools are allowed to even look at them
11:48:50 <b_jonas> like, terminals and job control has rules that try to magically do the correct thing in various strange cases too, but they're hard to understand, as a result people don't understand it and don't know how they should write their programs such that they Just Work without having to do anything special.
11:52:10 <ais523> job control normally does Just Work, though
11:52:24 <ais523> except when you do something silly like install handlerse for /all/ signals
11:52:34 <ais523> except for whitelisted ones
11:53:27 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, or when they cargo cult random sequence of syscalls into a perl script to "demonize" the program, and keep the terminal open
11:54:02 <ais523> I think you missed an 'a' there, but it's funnier that way
11:54:22 <b_jonas> nah, I don't care about "demon" vs "daemon"
11:55:26 <b_jonas> and I remember someone caught a nasty bug some months ago when some early process at starting X called sigprocmask with memory junk (looked like a pointer) in the signal set and forgot to change it back before forking all the application programs,
11:55:30 <b_jonas> which then caused random bugs in all programs
11:55:56 <b_jonas> unix's "most process state is inherited" can be nasty when there's a bug like that
11:56:39 <Melvar> (Given the original desired setup I thought it surely can be done with selinux.)
12:04:33 <elliott> ais523: u-w,g+w seems kind of incoherent to me
12:04:54 <ais523> elliott: yeah, it's bizarre
12:05:04 <ais523> but apparently the cygwin people cared enough about compatibility that they wanted to make it work
12:05:26 <ais523> even though probably nobody has found an actual application for it ever
12:05:30 <elliott> is there ever a good reason to not enforce owner < group < world?
12:05:42 <elliott> like, is there a reasonable use-case for permissions that violate that?
12:05:50 <ais523> I guess if you had a "banned users" group
12:06:14 <ais523> ah, here we go: https://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/ntsec.html
12:06:42 <fizzie> u-w,g+w: when you don't trust yourself, but want other people to be able to edit the file.
12:08:59 <ais523> cygwin's example is rw-r-xrw-
12:09:05 <ais523> which is pretty crazy as perms go
12:10:40 <ais523> actually, their implementation of setuid(2) is even crazier
12:11:27 <b_jonas> for obfu purposes, I guess such things could occurr if you store status in perm bits, and your programs check them implicitly when some operation files with EACCESS
12:11:51 <fizzie> We don't have per-user groups on these computers; my primary group is 70000 "Domain Users".
12:11:58 <ais523> when you reach the point of "requires permissions that SYSTEM doesn't have" you know you're in trouble
12:12:35 <ais523> Windows' high-level permissions are such a mess
12:12:49 <ais523> especially when you start seeing TrustedInstaller with lower perms than, say, Administrator
12:13:07 <fizzie> At the civil service place I was in, I used to have to start Photoshop (or some other Adobe tool) as a special "service pack 4 updater" user in order to be able to print, otherwise there was some permissions problem in bringing up the print dialog.
12:13:19 <fizzie> Only applied to some particular pieces of software.
12:13:26 <fizzie> I don't know how they had managed to configure that.
12:17:42 <fizzie> I dug out the password for that account -- which was something like "oh crap" in Finnish -- from the login scripts, which used some Windows "su" tool to execute a few set-up-registry-items commands under that account.
12:17:46 <fizzie> It was a bit of a mess.
12:20:26 <fizzie> (It wasn't "runas", it was something you could provide the password on the command line.)
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13:18:43 <mroman> fizzie: You're not supposed to look at windows login scripts
13:18:53 <mroman> they contain sensitive informations users aren't supposed to see
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13:34:18 <fizzie> It seemed easier than trying to deal with the bureaucracy.
13:34:46 <fizzie> Also it's hard to not notice command prompt windows that flash briefly on every login, and print messages about su and regedit and such.
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16:53:58 <Taneb> I... am not the best at translating Haskell -> Racket
16:58:56 <Taneb> What ought to be a prime sieve seems to be the identity function
17:00:35 <fizzie> It's an inclusive prime sieve that doesn't want to hurt any number's feelings, no matter how composite they might be.
17:01:53 <int-e> let me guess, it returns every number that is divisible by 1 and itself?
17:02:56 <ais523> "Maths made difficult" defines primes as integers with exactly four integral factors
17:03:37 <ais523> this neatly excludes 1 and -1 because they only have two integral factors each
17:06:24 <Taneb> Slereah_, I don't think so
17:06:50 <int-e> @tell oerjan I can't answer your question. But perhaps you'll enjoy the 4 different 85 character versions in http://sprunge.us/QHXf?hs
17:07:00 <Taneb> Slereah_, I don't think there are any with an odd number
17:07:10 <Taneb> (because if x|y, -x|y)
17:09:26 <Taneb> Aleph naught is even.
17:09:49 <int-e> how do you define "even"?
17:10:43 <int-e> N is in bijection with N + N (disjoint union), but also in bijection with N + N + {1}, so one could say that its cardinality is both odd and even.
17:11:47 <int-e> I would prefer to restrict the notion to integers.
17:13:01 <Taneb> Even numbers = {x \elem integers, 2|x}
17:13:24 <Taneb> By which logic, I suppose aleph naught is not even
17:13:43 <Taneb> ais523, I need to get me a copy of that book
17:13:53 <int-e> (In general, to rings with a surjective homomorphism to Z/2Z.)
17:14:13 <int-e> bonus points if that homomorphism is unique.
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17:47:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40699&oldid=40660 * Rdebath * (+64) Link to bins zip
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19:08:20 <impomatic_> There's a Core War tournament this week if anyone fancies a go :-) corewar.co.uk/halloween2014.htm
19:10:03 <ais523> hmm, I had an interesting core war idea a while ago
19:10:09 <ais523> but now I can't remember what it was
19:10:23 <ais523> something to do with multiple threads that repaired each other and just tried to survive
19:12:10 <ais523> most/all of the obvious ideas will have been tried by now
19:12:20 <ais523> oh, no, I remember what it was
19:12:24 <ais523> it was a paper-like program
19:12:36 <ais523> only it intentionally forkbombs itself in order to prevent the opponent using anti-paper tactics
19:12:36 <impomatic_> "I will close by suggesting that the winner of next year's tournament will be a self-repairing program." - A. K. DEWDNEY, The Core War Newsletter (March 1987)
19:12:40 <ais523> hundreds of threads on each copy
19:12:57 <ais523> probably wouldn't work, though
19:14:14 <impomatic_> Not everything has been discovered. There are new ideas being tried out all the time.
19:14:33 <ais523> just like in BF Joust, I guess
19:14:52 <impomatic_> And there are combinations of known strategies which haven't been tried, but might work really well together.
19:16:52 <ais523> one thing I noticed is that many of my best BF Joust programs recently work by deceiving the opponent as to their strategy
19:17:09 <ais523> omnipotence, for instance, is a defence program disguised as a fast rush against most opponents (and an actual fast rush against pokes)
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19:32:10 <impomatic_> I've also been trying to track down a couple of historic robot programming games. Robot Arena for the Research Machines 380Z and Robot for the SOL-20
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19:43:44 <J_Arcane> huh. http://soft-dev.org/pubs/html/diekmann_tratt__eco_a_language_composition_editor/
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19:58:04 <fizzie> As a prime example of paying attention to the important part, I'm annoyed because all the "ff"s, "ffi"s and "fi"s of that document have been turned into ligatures, and render in a much darker type than the rest of the body text.
19:58:58 <fizzie> (Not sure why it renders badly.)
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20:05:24 <zzo38> 2600 uses ligatures even in fixpitch text and I want to send a postcard to them to tell them not to do that please.
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21:01:42 <Taneb> What's the largest brainfuck program people know?
21:02:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: dunno, but it's easy to create large ones
21:05:04 <Taneb> b_jonas, that's kind of cheating
21:05:12 <Taneb> Although the problem is ill specified
21:07:24 <int-e> Lost Kingdom, perhaps?
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21:09:00 <fizzie> Lost Kingdom would've been my guess too.
21:09:04 <int-e> or do you disallow programs that were compiled from a more highlevel language?
21:11:55 <fizzie> awib's relatively long, as far as handwritten programs go. It's not *giant*, though.
21:12:22 <fizzie> And it does use a "preprocessor", but that preprocessor pretty much just removes comments and implements an "include" mechanism for splitting to multiple files.
21:15:38 <fizzie> How coincidental, looks like an awib 0.4 just came out in like two weeks ago.
21:15:43 <zzo38> I want to implement Diehard tests into Z-machine codes.
21:18:13 <zzo38> Information I have found in Wikipedia and that stuff doesn't seem to mention implementation details?
21:18:30 <int-e> Hehe. "Extending the brainfuck language is like bolting parts to a skateboard in an attempt to build a pickup truck."
21:19:59 <Bike> i saw a design thing once that implied exactly that for real trucks
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22:24:22 <Sgeo> Is it dangerous if everyone stands on one side of an airplane?
22:24:26 <Sgeo> I tried googling to no avail
22:25:44 <int-e> Not helpful. "To ensure the aircraft is safe to fly, the center of gravity must fall within specified limits established by the aircraft manufacturer."
22:28:42 <coppro> if everyone stands at the front, probably
22:29:04 <Sgeo> I'm thinking of chartered flight to see a solar eclipse, not sure how safe that would be
22:29:14 <Sgeo> I assume everyone would be standing on a side to see it
22:31:17 <boily> I want to see people all stacked in an airplane's side. a feat to behold!
22:32:17 <Sgeo> Bluh, is it even possible to write an identity /function/ in Scala? [Different from an identity /method/]
22:32:57 <boily> is Scala like Java, where everything is a method?
22:33:54 <Sgeo> Scala has first class functions. However, Scala functions seem limited relative to Scala methods
22:34:14 <Sgeo> Methods can have any number of parameter lists, functions have one (or more? but not 0. At least according to some article)
22:34:21 <Sgeo> Functions can't accept implicit arguments
22:34:31 * boily is confused. “functions are first class, but they aren't...”
22:34:57 <Sgeo> You can't pass around methods, but you can pass around functions.
22:38:25 <Sgeo> How much of this because of the desire for easy Java interop?
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22:40:15 <int-e> Sgeo: http://avherald.com/h?article=43015f1b ... very small plane though
22:40:15 <lambdabot> int-e said 5h 33m 24s ago: I can't answer your question. But perhaps you'll enjoy the 4 different 85 character versions in http://sprunge.us/QHXf?hs
22:41:42 <Sgeo> I don't think a solar eclipse plane would be that large, owuld it?
22:41:58 <int-e> Sgeo: I came via https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2507/can-passenger-movement-in-an-airliner-make-it-stall
22:42:25 <int-e> from what I'm reading, larger planes can actually compensate for this, for example by redistributing fuel.
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22:44:10 <oerjan> int-e: i got an 81 solution that resembles your last ones but i didn't bother to submit it m@main=getLine>>=putStrLn.foldl1(flip$map.g).words>>m;g[e,f]c|e==c=f|f==c=e|1>0=c
22:44:15 <Sgeo> I have no idea if this is a larger plane or a smaller plane
22:44:52 <int-e> and obviously takeoff and landing are more critical than normal flight.
22:45:20 <Sgeo> THat makes me feel better
22:46:15 <int-e> oerjan: I recall thinking about using 'cycle' much earlier but didn't get it to work.
22:46:38 <oerjan> ok so you and henkma apparently thought of it independently :)
22:47:20 <int-e> and then it was only a small step from there to the cheating solution.
22:48:40 <int-e> oerjan: It's funny though. I never thought adding a 'flip' could be worthwhile.
22:49:10 <oerjan> i wavered back and forth several times on whether to fold over entire words or single characters, essentially
22:50:28 <int-e> Oh I didn't try that; using foldl1 was just too attractive.
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22:53:50 <oerjan> hm maybe "folding over single characters" isn't the right term, i mean that foldl1(flip$map.g) thing as opposed to foldl1(#) with # handling an entire word with a list comprehension or the like
22:54:59 <int-e> oerjan: actually the 'cycle' idea resulted from thinking about piecing together [d] and filter (/=d) b parts so that the right elements would line up. doing it with ++ was too long, but a regular pattern could work...
22:55:49 <int-e> oerjan: oh. well, you can see from my 9th solution that I didn't think it benefitial to inline the (?) then.
22:55:50 <oerjan> although my _very_ first version actually did fold over single characters entirely, it was m@main=getLine>>=a.words>>m;a(t:s)=putStrLn[foldl(#)c s|c<-t];c#l|[e]<-filter(/=c)l=e|1>0=c
22:57:08 <oerjan> well one of the things i've learned while golfing is that it can depend a lot on circumstances whether it pays to inline a function or not, as long as it has only one equation.
22:57:20 <int-e> oerjan: so you were using filter from the beginning, essentially ... I took a while to find it.
22:58:14 <oerjan> and that was something i _removed_ for my own shortest version.
22:58:31 <int-e> oerjan: to repeat myself, I never thought that adding 'flip' could pay off.
23:04:41 <oerjan> i remember comparing things like (flip$map.(#)) vs. (?);x?y=map(y#)x and (\x y->map(y#)x)
23:06:04 <oerjan> the latter two are equally good
23:06:21 <int-e> intuition is such an unreliable beast
23:06:59 <oerjan> and a function instead of f loses by 1 character, the kind of thing that depends a lot on spacing possibilities
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00:22:07 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> fizzie: and because of that, "was being" is typically only used to construct passives <-- i think you are being disingenious hth
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01:13:10 <shachaf> copumpkin: Did you ever end up reading that thing?
01:21:12 <coppro> Recommended Windows IRC client?
01:22:20 <paul2520> coppro: PuTTY into a Linux server
01:22:52 <coppro> not an option for this individual
01:24:55 <paul2520> coppro: Raspberry Pis are cheap. but if Windows is a must, see http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/top-7-free-irc-clients-windows-7/
01:34:20 <elliott> that list looks completely awful.
01:34:29 <zzo38> Well, I wrote a IRC client that can be used in Windows, although it requires PuTTY, so you will still require PuTTY. Also it is difference from other IRC client and some people might hate it.
01:35:19 <elliott> like, recommending the shareware windows xchat? and that thrashirc thing that I seriously doubt anyone uses?
01:36:02 <int-e> "These are 7 of the best IRC clients ..."
01:36:23 <int-e> SO logically that means *any* 7 IRC clients.
01:37:00 <paul2520> zzo38: so if it requires PuTTY, is it running on some server somewhere?
01:37:13 <elliott> 3 of the best IRC clients: netcat, DelphiExampleIRCClient.exe, ZMODEM
01:37:40 <int-e> elliott: how do you use zmodem for that?
01:38:10 <oerjan> do you get to whistle tones
01:38:10 <elliott> I'm sure you could work out *something*.
01:38:20 <int-e> netcat wouldn't be so bad if not for all the pings from the server.
01:38:44 <zzo38> paul2520: You can run the server on your own computer.
01:39:18 <oerjan> idea: netdog, like netcat except it will fetch pings for you.
01:39:57 <zzo38> int-e: If that is what you want, you can try my IRC client which adds autopong, not interfering input text with output, and syntax highlighting. (Also, it allows you to turn off autopong, and supports password masking and macros and a few other things.)
01:40:00 <oerjan> hm apparently that name is taken by something sinister
01:40:39 <zzo38> There is no DCC files and stuff like that though
01:40:52 <paul2520> zzo38: I'm interested. Is your client online somewhere?
01:41:42 <int-e> zzo38: it's not really what I want. but the few times I've used netcat (I guess I used telnet instead), the pong thing was the most annoying.
01:42:33 <zzo38> paul2520: Yes; it is http://zzo38computer.org/prog/PHIRC/phirc.zip
01:42:35 <int-e> I don't care about DCC.
01:42:47 * int-e cares about a fragment of CTCP though.
01:43:43 <paul2520> cool, I will check it out; thanks! zzo38
01:43:48 <zzo38> int-e: Which ones? PHIRC does implement some CTCP stuff, such as VERSION, PING, and TIME.
01:44:08 <int-e> The one that I just demonstrated. ACTION.
01:45:04 <zzo38> Ah. Well, it can display and send ACTION but has no special support for it.
01:45:28 <zzo38> (The program is also open-source so you can change it if you like to.)
01:45:46 <zzo38> int-e: That is correct; it doesn't have any such command.
01:45:50 <int-e> But perhaps the whole idea of using / is not applicable.
01:45:57 <zzo38> (You can create macros for it though.)
01:47:10 <zzo38> For example you can assign one of the function keys to automatically type for you CTRL+A and ACTION and a space. You can also make it so that it adds a space in front automatically too if you want to (typing a space at the beginning of a command-line will automatically type PRIVMSG and the channel name and a colon).
01:48:57 <int-e> hehe, I can't even run phirc... (no php installed. a solvable problem, of course.)
01:49:59 <zzo38> Of course, it might not be what you want, but nevertheless it is there in case anyone like it; at least I use it myself because I do not like the other IRC clients much.
01:50:23 <int-e> I'm quite happy with irssi right now.
01:55:28 <Sgeo> Does Iceland have Subways
01:55:40 <Sgeo> http://www.subway.is/
01:55:51 <Sgeo> I have not the faintest idea what any of that says
01:59:02 <int-e> http://en.subway.is/ might help
01:59:29 <int-e> (alas, the contents is not the same)
02:00:31 <elliott> I must know why you're curious about this.
02:00:34 <zzo38> Have you ever tried to play chess in which it is allowed to promote a white pawn into a black pawn?
02:01:05 <elliott> wow, Iceland has 24 subways?
02:01:18 <elliott> that's kind of a lot for how few people there are / how few places they're concentrated in
02:01:55 <int-e> zzo38: no. why would you want to do that?
02:02:37 <int-e> and how does that interact with the two-square advance and en passant rules?
02:03:22 <zzo38> int-e: Of course then you would need to add rules to know how to do that; my own idea would be that two-square advance is allowed on its own second rank. (So, from there it can be moved one space, and then two spaces from there.)
02:04:02 <zzo38> How can I find the information about implementing Diehard test? I found a list of the tests, but not implementation details of how exactly these tests work.
02:04:07 <int-e> The only point would be that it's a piece that the opponent can't capture
02:04:43 <int-e> So it'll allow a few strange extra mating techniques. Other than that I see no incentive for ever using that option.
02:05:12 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, that is a point of it; it blocks other opponent's pieces. It might also possibly avoid opponent being stalemated?
02:08:51 <int-e> hard to imagine that it wouldn't be possible to win in a different way, unless you're running against the 50 moves rule, and you won't because you've just advanced a pawn
02:09:24 <int-e> unless that was the 50th move... hmm.
02:10:27 <zzo38> Another thing would be to make up retro puzzles that specify that this is permitted
02:29:10 <oerjan> this has an example with promoting to a black knight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke_chess_problem#Offbeat_interpretations_of_the_rules_of_chess
02:29:25 <oerjan> i think we've mentioned it before
02:35:31 <zzo38> Yes I have seen that
02:35:43 <zzo38> But I am talking about retro puzzles
02:40:18 <int-e> zzo38: For a non-retro puzzle maybe one can build something around 4K2r/3PRP2/7b/8/8/8/8/8
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03:01:58 <Sgeo> It's not just my imagination that Scala lazy arguments can mess with refactoring, is it?
03:02:20 <Sgeo> You don't know whether or not you can safely pull out the g() in f(g()) without looking at f's type
03:05:02 <Sgeo> Reminds me of Clojure a bit, in that methods are not first class. But in Scala, methods are given all the cool stuff
03:34:10 <zzo38> How do I do in MinGW with SDL 1.x to call another program and read from what it sends to the stdout and you can write that it can receive by stdin?
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05:08:22 <zzo38> I want something like the proc_open in PHP, but with C
05:13:31 <zzo38> I want a terminal emulator that does this: http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/zterm.txt
05:14:23 <lifthrasiir> wait a min---I thought the called program uses SDL (which makes the redirection very hard)
05:15:33 <zzo38> No I mean the calling program should use SDL and the program it calls is using stdio
05:15:49 <zzo38> But, I think popen is not good enough?
05:16:03 <lifthrasiir> in that case, you are out of luck. any program linking with SDLmain redirects its stdout and stderr to somewhere else.
05:16:50 <zzo38> I don't need the SDL program's stdio, only to access the stdin and stdout of another program it can call
05:17:32 <lifthrasiir> eh, then you just need popen, was that a question?
05:17:55 <lifthrasiir> (maybe the "called" program and the "calling" program is a confusing terminology)
05:20:10 <zzo38> But doesn't popen only go one way?
05:21:48 <lifthrasiir> SO seems to have a good answer to that: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6171552/popen-simultaneous-read-and-write
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05:38:36 <elliott> sdlmain is dead in sdl 2, right?
05:40:58 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: OK thank you
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06:08:03 <zzo38> Do you think this ZTERM is OK now?
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06:28:35 <zzo38> It is a kind of alternative to Glk
07:02:00 <elliott> is there really no simple way to do what I'd expect "git clone --depth=1 --branch=some-sha1-commit-hash https://..." to do? :/
07:05:27 <coppro> elliott: what do you expect and what does it do?
07:06:47 <elliott> coppro: to give me a checkout at some-sha1-commit-hash, preferably without downloading more of the history than it has to (as in, comparable behaviour to --depth=1 on a branch). complain because some-sha1-commit-hash isn't a ref.
07:07:11 <elliott> (I also tried git init; git remote add origin https://...; git fetch origin sha1, which has the same issue.)
07:07:23 <elliott> or maybe it isn't looking for a ref exactly. that's what git-fetch's complaint was, anyway.
07:10:10 <shachaf> http://git.661346.n2.nabble.com/Fetch-by-SHA-missing-td5604552.html
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10:44:32 <mroman> fizzie: All factors 2 is tough
10:44:55 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}":,,,"XX**\[
10:44:55 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
10:44:57 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}":,,,"XX**
10:49:38 <fizzie> I'm using m]',IC to go from {1 2 3 4 5} to "1,2,3,4,5", FWIW.
10:55:24 <mroman> fizzie: Then use 1SH~- instead
10:55:29 <mroman> i'ts shorter than m]',IC
10:56:38 <mroman> (I'm using 1SH~- myself already)
10:57:42 <mroman> I have another 28B without 1SH~-
11:00:15 <mroman> !blsq "~:~"{10 1 2 5 10}f~
11:00:20 <mroman> !blsq "~:~"{10 1 2 5 10}',[]f~
11:02:05 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't know anything about this format stuff.
11:12:22 <mroman> Jfc1SH~-Cl"~:~"jf~ Jfc1SH~-Cl':[]m]\[ Jfc1SH~-jSh':_+j_+
11:13:31 <mroman> Jfc',[]j+]"~:~"jf~ Jfc1SH~-':+]jShj.+
11:13:50 <mroman> all 5 approaches the same freaking length
11:16:49 <mroman> http://codepad.org/JNCAxTPT <- my log
11:17:09 <mroman> maybe Jfc isn't the way to go :(
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12:03:18 <fizzie> My 24B does go via Jfc.
12:05:17 <fizzie> Actually, it's identical to the last line of your paste, except ?+ can do the work of the jShj.+ there.
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12:08:30 <mroman> I just noticed that ?+ works that way
12:09:09 <mroman> ok. then it's not really tough
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12:11:06 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([+) Invalid arguments!
12:12:19 <mroman> ~- was actually introduced to get from {1 2 3} to "1, 2, 3"
12:13:25 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
12:13:43 <mroman> prepend/append could benefit from some more stuff
12:13:49 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
12:14:07 <mroman> String, Any b could actually just call Sh+]
12:14:30 <mroman> and then add String a, String b which prepends b to a
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12:19:38 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
12:19:40 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
12:20:04 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[q?^r[
12:21:32 <mroman> !blsq 2 2?^2?^2?^2?^2?^
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12:22:18 <lambdabot> 2003529930406846464979072351560255750447825475569751419265016973710894059556...
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12:22:54 <mroman> !blsq 2.0 2?^2?^2?^2?^2?^
12:22:55 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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12:23:52 <mroman> is this right associative?
12:24:08 <b_jonas> sure, but I can add parenthesis
12:24:08 <lambdabot> 2003529930406846464979072351560255750447825475569751419265016973710894059556...
12:25:49 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa
12:26:04 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}.*\[
12:26:04 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
12:26:07 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}.*
12:26:07 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
12:26:16 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa#s
12:26:23 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}j
12:26:26 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}j.*
12:26:26 <blsqbot> {{?^} {?^} {?^} {?^} {?^}}
12:26:28 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}j.*\[
12:26:30 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}j.*\[_+
12:26:30 <blsqbot> {2 2 2 2 2 ?^ ?^ ?^ ?^ ?^}
12:26:34 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}j.*\[_+e!
12:26:34 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (**) Invalid arguments!
12:26:52 <mroman> !blsq "2 5"pejbxj.*\[sa{?^}j?d.*\[_+e!
12:26:52 <blsqbot> 20035299304068464649790723515602557504478254755697514192650169737108940595563114
12:27:25 <mroman> and it's only twice as long as fizzies solution
12:29:43 <mroman> !blsq {2 2 2 2 2}q?^r[
12:29:48 <mroman> !blsq {2 2 2 2 2}q?^r[2j?^
12:29:48 <blsqbot> 20035299304068464649790723515602557504478254755697514192650169737108940595563114
12:29:59 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}q?^r[2j?^
12:29:59 <blsqbot> 14907494374831386027492982111718907719449320022227325901415431501076384308276971
12:30:07 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}q?^r[3j?^
12:30:07 <blsqbot> 15054164145220926243143298033398654543076143473537427823628361588037621543571301
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12:31:01 <blsqbot> {{3 3 3} {3 3 3} {3 3 3} {3 3 3} {3 3 3} {3 3 3}}
12:31:04 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 9):
12:31:05 <blsqbot> {{} {3} {3} {3 3} {3} {3 3} {3 3} {3 3 3}}
12:31:15 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}R@NB{q?^r[}
12:31:25 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}R@NB{q?^r[}m[
12:31:25 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Empty list! 3 27 19683}
12:31:33 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}R@NB{q?^r[}m[[-
12:31:41 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}R@NB{q?^r[}m[[-q?^l[
12:31:41 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (l[)!
12:31:43 <mroman> !blsq {3 3 3}R@NB{q?^r[}m[[-q?^r[
12:31:43 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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12:39:30 <j-bot> b_jonas: 7.6256e12
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13:23:33 <fizzie> Heh, some LaTeX mishap has turned all the 'fi' ligatures in this PDF to £s.
13:24:34 <fizzie> "The £rst step in the algorithm --" "The £nal step --" "-- in the audio £le --" "-- until we £nd an optimal --"
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14:29:37 <elliott> fizzie: that's the origin of the pound sign, from the latin "fiscus"
14:29:58 <elliott> obviously it no longer looks much like a fi ligature
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15:20:32 <b_jonas> timeout around 15 seconds? ok
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15:29:11 <mroman> that's a lot of seconds
15:29:52 <mroman> blsqbot has 42100 micro-seconds
15:31:36 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:32:12 <blsqbot> {2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 5 5 5 5 5}
15:32:15 <blsqbot> {2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5}
15:32:29 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789fC
15:32:29 <blsqbot> {3 3 7 11 13 19 3607 3803 52579}
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15:32:33 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789123456789fC
15:32:33 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:32:37 <mroman> !blsq 1234567891234567891234567fC
15:32:37 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:32:39 <mroman> !blsq 12345678912345678912345fC
15:32:39 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:32:42 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789123fC
15:32:42 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:32:45 <mroman> !blsq 1234567891234567891fC
15:32:45 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:32:49 <b_jonas> [ `: 123456789123456789123456789x
15:32:49 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789fC
15:32:50 <blsqbot> {3 3 7 11 13 19 3607 3803 52579}
15:32:50 <j-bot> b_jonas: `:123456789123456789123456789x
15:32:52 <b_jonas> [ q: 123456789123456789123456789x
15:32:52 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 3 3 757 3607 3803 440334654777631
15:34:20 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789fC
15:34:20 <blsqbot> {3 3 7 11 13 19 3607 3803 52579}
15:34:27 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789 757 ./
15:35:40 <mroman> 757 isn't a primefactor of 123456789123456789
15:35:44 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789 757.0 ./
15:36:04 <mroman> [ q: 123456789123456789x
15:36:04 <j-bot> mroman: 3 3 7 11 13 19 3607 3803 52579
15:39:55 <mroman> [ `: 123456789123456789x
15:39:56 <j-bot> mroman: `:123456789123456789x
15:40:20 <mroman> !blsq 123456789123456789123456789fC
15:40:20 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:40:30 <mroman> [ q: 123456789123456789123456789x
15:40:30 <j-bot> mroman: 3 3 3 757 3607 3803 440334654777631
15:41:01 <mroman> for what it's worth fc and fC are incredibly slow in burlesque
15:41:23 <mroman> 123456789123456789123456789fC takes about 5 seconds
15:42:06 <mroman> or 2 seconds if compiled with -O3
15:50:15 <b_jonas> !blsq {118510834 139026927 21900876 263490528 54952227 28989415 185234088 119320923}{JfC{}j+]j+]}m[
15:50:15 <blsqbot> {{118510834 {2 13 4558109}} {139026927 {3 13 23 154991}} {21900876 {2 2 3 23 73
15:50:43 <b_jonas> !blsq <@q: 118510834 139026927 21900876 263490528 54952227 28989415 185234088 119320923
15:50:50 <b_jonas> [ <@q: 118510834 139026927 21900876 263490528 54952227 28989415 185234088 119320923
15:50:51 <j-bot> b_jonas: +------------+--------------+----------------+--------------------+-------------+------------------+--------------------+----------+
15:50:51 <j-bot> b_jonas: |2 13 4558109|3 13 23 154991|2 2 3 23 73 1087|2 2 2 2 2 3 7 392099|3 3 11 555073|5 7 13 13 13 13 29|2 2 2 3 13 23 83 311|3 39773641|
15:50:51 <j-bot> b_jonas: +------------+--------------+----------------+--------------------+-------------+------------------+--------------------+----------+
15:52:03 <mroman> !blsq {118510834 139026927 21900876 263490528 54952227 28989415 185234088 119320923}JfCz[
15:52:03 <blsqbot> {{118510834 {2 13 4558109}} {139026927 {3 13 23 154991}} {21900876 {2 2 3 23 73
15:52:48 <mroman> !blsq {118510834 139026927 21900876 263490528 54952227 28989415 185234088 119320923}JfCz[sp
15:52:49 <blsqbot> 118510834 [2, 13, 4558109]
15:52:58 <b_jonas> mroman: is there a command to create a block from the top two stack elements, or from the top one stack element?
15:53:35 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!
15:53:37 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
15:53:41 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
15:53:44 <blsqbot> {118510834 {2 13 4558109}}
15:55:16 <mroman> which in some circumstances might work for you
15:56:11 <blsqbot> {{1 1} {2 2} {3 3} {4 4} {5 5}}
15:57:01 <blsqbot> {{1 {1}} {2 {1 2}} {3 {1 3}} {4 {1 2 4}} {5 {1 5}}}
15:58:42 <blsqbot> {{1 2 3 4 5} {{1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 2 4} {1 5}}}
15:59:21 <blsqbot> {{1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 2 4} {1 5} {1 2 3 6} {1 7} {1 2 4 8} {1 3 9} {1 2 5 10}}
16:00:26 <blsqbot> {1 3 4 7 6 12 8 15 13 18 12 28 14 24 24 31 18 39 20 42 32 36 24 60 31 42 40 56 3
16:01:14 <mroman> Is there a term for a pair of numbers (a,a+1) where the sum of all factors for both numbers is the same?
16:01:52 <b_jonas> mroman: compute the first few and look it up in OEIS?
16:02:11 <blsqbot> {{1 3} {4 7} {6 12} {8 15} {13 18} {12 28} {14 24} {24 31} {18 39} {20 42} {32 3
16:02:14 <b_jonas> factors or proper factors?
16:02:19 <blsqbot> {{1 3} {3 4} {4 7} {7 6} {6 12} {12 8} {8 15} {15 13} {13 18} {18 12} {12 28} {2
16:02:26 <b_jonas> wait, are there even such numbers?
16:02:45 <b_jonas> ok, are there at least 4 such numbers?
16:05:16 <mroman> @oeis 14 15 206 207 957 958
16:05:16 <lambdabot> Table of consecutive numbers with the same sum of divisors.[14,15,206,207,95...
16:06:31 <b_jonas> um, that doesn't give an A-number
16:08:20 <fizzie> I was going to say "consecutive amicable numbers", but that's the sum of all proper divisors, not all factors.
16:11:18 <fizzie> There seems to be no pair of amicable numbers that are consecutive. ("In every known case, the numbers of a pair are either both even or both odd. It is not known whether an even-odd pair of amicable numbers exists, but if it does, the even number must either be a square number or twice one, and the odd number must be a square number.")
16:11:51 <fizzie> Oh, right, it's also sum-equals-the-other-number, not same-sum.
16:15:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40700&oldid=39781 * Nucular * (+0) The JsBP repo was renamed
16:15:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40701&oldid=40268 * Nucular * (+0) The JsBP repo was renamed
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16:29:19 <mroman> wtf keeps javac complaining about duplicate class
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16:33:23 <mroman> something is broken here o_O
16:34:04 <b_jonas> mroman: wait, do you mean javac keeps complaining about it, or something keeps javac from complaining about it when it shouldn't?
16:44:16 <mroman> it says my class is a duplicate
16:44:24 <mroman> but even if I rename it to HTunsauhntaeouhn it will still be a duplicate class
16:44:35 <mroman> no matter what the class is called it will complain about it being a duplicate
16:46:07 <b_jonas> mroman: are you sure you only have one class per source file, and that class has a name matching the filename? I think java is a bit moronic about that (even more than haskell)
16:48:33 <mroman> turns out I specified a package not matching the folder structure on the file system
16:48:49 <mroman> instead of foo.bar.baz i wrote foo.baz.bar
16:49:13 <mroman> why the fuck this will produce duplicate class error still remains a mystery
16:49:18 <mroman> there are no classes in foo.baz.bar
16:49:50 <mroman> *gotta catch train now*
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17:13:53 <Taneb> I had a dream last night where someone told me I need to drink more alcohol
17:13:58 <Taneb> Like,as a general thing
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18:10:55 <J_Arcane> Anyone know any code golf friendly tricks for text obfuscation?
18:13:04 <Taneb> Problem with my dream is, I look quite young, and I don't have any ID currently
18:13:33 <Taneb> So I can't get more alcohol
18:14:35 <kline> J_Arcane: python list comprehensions can be compact and well obfuscated
18:15:25 <J_Arcane> Was trying to think if I could hide a 'punchline' in a bit of tweet-sized code that when run would then spit out the intended message, without it being obvious at a glancy.
18:16:44 <fizzie> Isn't that kind of like the typical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_another_Perl_hacker program.
18:17:14 <b_jonas> exactly, there's lots of perl obfus doing that
18:17:20 <b_jonas> and some in other languages too
18:17:38 <fizzie> Possibly not so often about compactness, but still.
18:17:44 <b_jonas> `perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r
18:17:47 <fizzie> I like the "keywords only" code in that article.
18:18:00 <b_jonas> I think that one doesn't fit in a tweet
18:18:11 <b_jonas> but I have shorter ones that do
18:19:31 <fizzie> The http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world solutions might also give some ideas.
18:19:38 <fizzie> And those are designed for compactness.
18:20:01 <b_jonas> depending on how obfuscated you want, juts a simple transliteration (caesar cipher) can work. that's only a few characters
18:22:28 <fizzie> The Perl ones in that competition are a bit overly "binary", though.
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19:03:31 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: yeah, I was thinking of using Racket again for the challenge and just doing a quickie lambda to iterate over a rot47 string of the intended message.
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19:15:37 <J_Arcane> Well. That was easier than expected. 1) Racket can do for loops over strings. 2) Racket is Unicode. 3) Because of 2 I was able to compress my message down to half the visible chars by using a ROT offset that bumped them into a ligature range.
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19:44:57 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20141028-esoteric-2014.ogg
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19:49:39 <zzo38> What is the safest way to measure electrical resistance of your body?
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19:51:40 <int-e> http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html is a data point of sorts
19:54:12 <zzo38> That is people misusing the device...
19:56:45 <zzo38> I refer to this like this http://www.lermanet.com/shock1.htm where some people believe it might be dangerous due to electricity passing through a body. (This is describing the "e-meter", a ridiculously overpriced ohmmeter with continuously variable range and sensitivity, and a built-in digital clock. However, there are also other similar devices, can be used as biofeedback.)
20:06:11 <int-e> I can't extract information from that page, beyond the carneval story.
20:08:41 <int-e> In particular this: "My calculations equate 2 shocks of a 200Volt 2 second AC treatment with 2.5 hours spent on an emeter" ... fine, but this says nothing about the effects.
20:11:40 <zzo38> Well, I have read stuff about possible effects, in other articles too.
20:12:24 <zzo38> There is stuff about electroplating and pain killing: http://www.lermanet.com/e-metershort.htm
20:12:44 <int-e> I always assumed that the main effects were psychological, but perhaps that was wrong.
20:13:08 <int-e> I don't really care either way, Scientology doesn't deserve that attention :P
20:14:36 <zzo38> I have also read of other things where the device may not be as accurate as it could be, as well as in one page, someone said it might possibly catch fire because it isn't built in best way.
20:14:44 <zzo38> (As well as problems with the fuse.)
20:15:15 <int-e> who cares about the accuracy?!
20:15:16 <zzo38> But it isn't about Scientology that I am talking about here, but rather simply a device which they use, as well as a class of similar devices.
20:16:39 <zzo38> And how to improve the safety and accuracy of such classes of biofeedback ohmmeters.
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21:50:04 <Bike> zzo38: it's not really constant even across parts of your body. i'd just use a multimeter and a harmlessly small power source, i guess
21:50:21 <Bike> human bodies aren't ohmic. imo, woe.
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22:03:52 <FreeFull> With a normal multimeter, you won't feel it if it's across normal skin, but blood is conductive enough, that if you stick the pins into your thumbs, the current across your heart will stop it
22:05:35 <Sgeo> I remember wanting ... some weird scoping in Clojure. Now that I understand Scala implict arguments, I think that that's exactly what I wanted
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22:27:44 <Bike> FreeFull: right, avoid that
22:29:02 <boily> Sgello. still discovering Scala?
22:30:18 <Taneb> Does anyone have a convinient BF Joust Hill Manager I can plug into an IRC bot written in Haskell?
22:31:19 <Sgeo> boily: My nick is Sgeo, not Sgello, hth
22:31:24 <Sgeo> I do not ping on Sgello
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22:33:04 <Sgeo> And yes, still learning about Scala
22:33:24 <Sgeo> I think I like the whole PartialFunction thing... or at least almost like it
22:33:43 <zemhill> oerjan: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
22:33:55 <Sgeo> (You can define a function with pattern matching and if you don't define it for all domains, you can actually ask the function
22:34:03 <Sgeo> 'are you defined on this value')
22:34:32 <Bike> something something halting problem !!!!!
22:35:16 <Taneb> Any idea how to call Ruby from Haskell?
22:35:25 <Sgeo> .isDefinedAt not guaranteed to be accurate
22:35:55 <Sgeo> But it's correct enough when definine functions via pattern matching, I think
22:36:02 <boily> it sounds a lot like some kind of multiple dispatch thingie...
22:36:06 <oerjan> Taneb: you might want to discuss this with fizzie since he wrote most of it. also he presumably has it on github.
22:36:09 <Sgeo> http://www.scala-lang.org/api/current/index.html#scala.PartialFunction
22:36:22 <boily> oh. partial. no polymorphic.
22:37:03 <Taneb> https://github.com/fis/chainlance/ I think
22:37:50 <Sgeo> Scala has polymorphic methods but not functions :(
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22:40:03 <oerjan> yeah the bfjoust interpreter itself is the same as was used in old EgoBot, i think
22:40:27 <oerjan> (fizzie wrote that one, too)
22:40:29 <Sgeo> def implicitly[T](implicit e: T) = e // for summoning implicit values from the nether world
22:42:45 <FireFly> o wait you said so up there
22:44:44 <boily> nothing like a good summoning to liven up your code.
22:45:08 <Melvar> < fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20141028-esoteric-2014.ogg – What is that?
22:47:47 <zzo38> I don't know what that is supposed to mean either.
22:48:39 <oerjan> Taneb: note that i don't think fizzie has yet managed to fix the bug in the matrix-based scoring
22:49:20 <oerjan> in the beginning things occasionally crashed, but lately i think results got completely out of whack?
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22:52:09 <zzo38> I wrote this API file for ZTERM: http://sprunge.us/JQHI Do you think it is OK, what other comment/complaint please?
22:54:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes to all: I haven't fixed anything, and there were some very suspicious results.
22:54:30 <zzo38> The actual definitions are almost all very short
22:54:59 <zzo38> Also, zterm_init() does nothing at all except on Windows (in which it changes stdin and stdout to binary)
22:56:55 <fizzie> Melvar: I've had this habit of every now and then converting some #esoteric-related statistic to an audio signal, that's just one more of those. The details probably aren't all too interesting. (It's based on channel activity again.)
22:57:33 <zzo38> fizzie: What is the methods of the data?
23:01:09 <fizzie> zzo38: Well. It was done by taking the 257 nicks with most messages in my logs for 2014, sorting them, and then building a message count matrix where rows correspond to nicks and columns to hours in 2014, taking the square root of that and considering it as a (non-redundant half of a) magnitude spectrum, and synthesizing a signal to have a spectrum like that. More or less.
23:03:19 <Taneb> fizzie, in theory, how hard would it be to call chainlance from Haskell?
23:04:05 <fizzie> Taneb: I don't know much about Haskell's IO/process bits, but I wouldn't think it'd be that hard. For hill use, you might want to be using the 'chainlanced' binary.
23:06:26 <fizzie> Taneb: Er, sorry, I mean "gearlanced".
23:08:07 <oerjan> it seems like the ruby version just calls it as an executable capturing stdin/stdout, so the haskell equivalent would be using System.Process and a couple threads, i think.
23:10:22 <fizzie> The "protocol" it speaks to stdin/stdout is documented in the comments of gearlanced.c. It basically just keeps a set of N precompiled programs, and lets you run a challenger against the set efficiently, plus commands to set those "slots".
23:11:02 <oerjan> you might or might not need the threads, dependent on deadlock possibilities
23:12:41 <fizzie> It's designed to be somewhat friendly for pipe-based use, in the sense that if you write a full command to (its) stdin, and then read the correct amount of lines from (its) stdout, nothing should hang up due to unfilled pipe buffers.
23:13:34 <fizzie> Er, s/unfilled/filled-up/
23:15:49 <oerjan> sounds like threads are optional, then.
23:16:10 <oerjan> (could still be nice to use them in an irc bot)
23:17:01 <oerjan> handling PINGs if nothing else
23:17:16 <fizzie> The Ruby stuff doesn't involve threads in the "Gear" class, but there's one in the actual hill-manager, since it gets jobs from both the web-submission system and the IRC bot.
23:19:22 <fizzie> I really should spend some time figuring out what's up with the crazy results, but I've spent all free-programming time fiddling with golf lately.
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23:20:43 <oerjan> i am not golfing anywhere near as much as you but _still_ my usual website browsing gets backlogged
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23:21:59 <oerjan> i suppose it might also be increased activity
23:27:25 <Sgeo> I wonder about the security implications of, say, custom string interpolation. Of course, it's /safe/ from, say, SQL injection (assuming an appropriate interpolation), but forcing a reader of the code to take their time to confirm that a line that looks unsafeish is actually safe is probably a bad idea. Also, someone could get used to it then see something simiilar in another language, then ignore it
23:28:08 <Sgeo> Although I guess sql"select * from foo where user=$user" the sql indication is obvious, and no one would be dumb enough to, say, have sql mean an unsafe interpolator
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23:30:03 <oerjan> @sequence 14 15 206 207 957 958
23:30:03 <lambdabot> Table of consecutive numbers with the same sum of divisors.[14,15,206,207,95...
23:30:15 <oerjan> hmph still no A number
23:31:54 <Sgeo> Of /course/ Scala && etc are just methods that take the second argument by-name
23:32:00 <Sgeo> That's... really kind of neat
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23:33:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: any sentence beginning with "no one would be dumb enough to" is false hth
23:34:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: besides, dependent on language, the sql function may not see the contents of the string until after the interpolation is already done.
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23:34:58 <oerjan> perl and bash both come to mind
23:35:07 <Taneb> "no-one would be dumb enough to prepend this sentence with its own quotation" no-one would be dumb enough to prepend this sentence with its own quotation
23:36:03 <Sgeo> oerjan: referring to Scala specifically, custom String interpolators get to see the literal parts of the string and the values the user intends to insert into the string, although the API for making a custom interpolator is really weird. What do Perl/Bash do?
23:36:23 <oerjan> Taneb: that's not starting with it, although admittedly neither did Sgeo's instance
23:36:50 <boily> Taneb: but if the no-one-dumb-postulate is true, therefore this is false, therefore is dumb, therefore is true.
23:38:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: in those languages, it wouldn't be a custom string interpolation, just a function/command applied to an argument that happens to come from a string
23:39:33 <zzo38> How can I fit geolocation data into a version 1 UUID?
23:40:03 <elliott> sql queries aren't strings anyway.
23:40:05 <zzo38> There is MAC address and the timestamp, which is good but then geolocation data should be added too in order to ensure better uniqueness.
23:40:09 <oerjan> i suppose haskell's quasiquotes would be similar to what scala does, so [sql|...|] in haskell would probably be assumed to take care of safety.
23:40:45 <Sgeo> https://gist.github.com/seratch/3436229
23:40:50 <zzo38> If you want to do executing SQL function you should use host parameters anyways for the parameter values, rather than putting them into the string, usually.
23:41:13 <Sgeo> zzo38: Scala lets you do that while making it look like you're making a string
23:41:38 <boily> zzo38: how many bits do you need for significant and useful geolocation data? or at least enough to avoid collisions?
23:42:39 <zzo38> boily: I don't know, but I only need enough to avoid collisions. But it needs to be good enough that the specified MAC address is guaranteed not to be in use elsewhere within the area it covers.
23:43:44 <FireFly> zzo38: why do you want to encode geolocation data in a UUID?
23:44:25 <boily> modulo spoofing, aren't MACs guaranteed by themselves to always be unique?
23:44:25 <zzo38> FireFly: In order to cause less interference in case the same MAC address is somehow duplicated
23:44:56 <zzo38> (I know it isn't supposed to be duplicated, but I don't know what happens, in case a mistake it made or something)
23:45:12 <FireFly> boily: does "spoofing" include "nasty manufacturers not caring to follow MAC address registration procedures"?
23:46:45 <boily> it didn't, but now I think it does. I guess off-off-brand cheap manufacturers cloning existing hardware?
23:47:46 <zzo38> I think you could set the "locally administered" bit in the MAC address to indicate that, at least, if you are unable to register a unique MAC address for some reason.
23:48:06 <zzo38> (In such a case, you should also always allow the user to change it to a different locally administered address.)
23:48:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Checkout]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40702&oldid=34651 * 24.19.237.231 * (+757) /* Impossible to checkout to level 6? */ new section
23:49:40 <Sgeo> elliott: the result of interpolation in Scala isn't necessarily a string
23:53:12 <elliott> it's runtime, though, right?
23:53:19 <elliott> i.e. sql")" is a runtime error
23:53:54 <FireFly> boily: something like that. I've heard of the situation happening
00:26:26 <Taneb> ^bf ,>,>,.<.<.!123
00:45:58 <Taneb> oerjan, I was trying to see how fungot did its input for ^bf
00:45:58 <fungot> Taneb: cyrus! are you leaving! strange, but!? noooo!! the king does not wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
00:48:23 <Taneb> Hmm, you know how I said earlier that I had a dream last night where someone told me I needed to drink more alcohol?
00:49:03 <Taneb> A sort-of friend from high school has messaged me telling me to drink more alcohol!
00:50:46 <Taneb> I don't think anyone told her about this dream
00:52:09 <oerjan> Taneb: i think what you tested is pretty standard behavior, although one difference i recall between fungot and EgoBot was that the latter kept the final newline in the input.
00:52:09 <fungot> oerjan: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
00:53:47 <oerjan> `! bf ,+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.!
00:54:18 <oerjan> hm maybe it didn't take input
00:55:17 <oerjan> fungot: any sword stopping today?
00:55:17 <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this world are places like that. a peaceful. hah! you think you are? coming and going out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our
00:56:10 <oerjan> ah, the synchronicities are catching up with Taneb *evil cackle*
00:56:32 <oerjan> elliott: *SOON I WILL HAVE CONVERTED ALL THE HEXHAMMERS*
00:56:57 <elliott> oerjan: are you creating all the synchronicities?
00:57:06 <oerjan> no, just pointing them out
00:57:22 <oerjan> i think. but who knows, really.
01:05:16 <boily> fungot: what do you think of Taneb?
01:05:16 <fungot> boily: must think of a way to the ocean palace?!
01:05:39 <boily> Taneb: any link with some branch of a royal lineage? anything you'd like us to know?
01:06:32 <oerjan> any strange birthmarks?
01:07:44 <oerjan> any suspiciously fancy swords placed above your parents' fireplace?
01:09:27 <oerjan> does the flashlight in their drawer burn holes in stuff when you turn it on?
01:11:43 <boily> is your cranium nicely and crownly shaped? do you gain a booming authorative voice when wielding a sceptre?
01:14:14 <oerjan> do birds inexplicably land on your finger if you point at something too long
01:15:33 <boily> Taneb as a Disney princess???
01:16:37 <oerjan> or possibly a distant relative of francis of assisi
01:17:38 <oerjan> do you have webs between your toes
01:18:38 <boily> last time I checked, no, not really. except for a mysterious grain de beauté on the side of a toe, nothing interesting there hth
01:18:39 <oerjan> spider _or_ duck-like count
01:18:52 <oerjan> um i'm still asking Taneb here
01:19:20 <oerjan> unless you are hiding something
01:20:03 <oerjan> are you the descendant of the secretly escaped last dauphin
01:20:37 <Taneb> I do not believe I have any royal connections
01:20:48 <oerjan> (that last one was to boily)
01:21:20 <oerjan> also that seems to be wrong, i didn't realize there were dauphins after the revolution too
01:22:03 <boily> I don't think so, but everything is possible.
01:22:47 <oerjan> well, one, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Antoine,_Duke_of_Angoul%C3%AAme
01:24:09 <boily> he's too late. my French ancestors came here 12 generations ago (give or take some fuziness and inaccuracy.)
01:25:43 <Taneb> I do not believe I have any french ancestry
01:27:07 <boily> interesting result. that'd put them right there at the beginning of Québec City (1608).
01:29:38 <oerjan> the length of a generation may need some disclaimers.
01:31:16 <boily> > 33 * 365.25 * 86400
01:31:44 <boily> a generation is about a gigasecond.
01:32:16 <boily> but now is the time to answer the call of the mattress.
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01:35:37 <Melvar> Huh, I thought the standard estimate of a generation was 25 years.
01:49:11 <Sgeo> I think I prefer Scala's implicit conversions to Rubyesque monkey-patching... but ... it still strikes me as silly, all that effort for a bit of syntax sugar
01:49:54 <Sgeo> http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/ufcs.html makes even more sense to me
01:50:30 <Sgeo> Although... a.b() could mean something other than expected if a defines its own b, I guess
01:55:45 <Melvar> I wonder if there’s any language where decimal literals are actually method calls.
01:56:27 <oerjan> Melvar: DISCLAIMER I SAID
01:57:35 <oerjan> <Melvar> Huh, I thought the standard estimate of a generation was 25 years.
01:59:33 <Melvar> Oh, yeah. It wasn’t about whether the estimate was good, only that it was not the estimate I expected someone to pick by default.
02:00:26 <Taneb> My gran's 67 years older than me which makes 33 years decent in my case
02:03:50 <oerjan> and mine was 44 years older than me, not so decent
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03:13:43 <oerjan> <fizzie> The http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world solutions might also give some ideas. <-- huh that actually seems to be impossible to do in haskell
03:14:28 <oerjan> not a single IO command without those characters, and "import" cannot be used either.
03:15:21 <Bike> looks like some solutions abuse case
03:15:44 <oerjan> sure, but in haskell you cannot do that with actual identifiers
03:15:48 <elliott> oerjan: use pointer manip to write out a machine code solution and jump to it
03:16:13 <elliott> I guess you can't without import
03:16:17 <oerjan> elliott: and how do you expect ... right
03:16:19 <Bike> just write a small language implementation and use that
03:16:53 <oerjan> a LANGUAGE pragma cannot be done without a ... oh wait you can use tabs can't you
03:17:04 <oerjan> but are there any that would help
03:17:24 <Bike> have it be C-preprocessed first and use trigrams
03:17:31 <coppro> I think you can't do it in whitespace either
03:17:35 <elliott> you can do LANGUAGE CPP actually
03:17:37 <oerjan> Bike: huh that might actually work :P
03:17:52 <elliott> doesn't get you letters though
03:17:59 <elliott> fish them out of header files
03:18:14 <elliott> (obviously not exactly that)
03:18:21 <Bike> sounds like a job for M4
03:18:33 <elliott> coppro: you might be able to? haskell cpp runs in a weird traditional mode
03:19:13 <elliott> I guess you cannot #include at all.
03:19:45 <oerjan> not literally, anyway...
03:20:18 <elliott> no way to do non-literal cpp directives
03:20:23 <elliott> unless you /nested/ cpp...
03:20:29 <elliott> you can use {-# OPTIONS #-}, at least
03:20:33 <Bike> set it to some sensible locale like zh-trad, problem solved
03:20:36 <elliott> and you can set an arbitrary preprocessor with that
03:20:56 <Bike> i'm going to go ahead and assume that haskell reserved words are also translated
03:21:02 <elliott> -pgmf doesn't even have any banned characters
03:21:06 <oerjan> elliott: but you don't have exec ability?
03:21:14 <elliott> oerjan: you must in the compiler
03:21:18 <elliott> it calls out to the linker, after all
03:21:33 <elliott> (I wonder if that's a security hole... hopefully it sandboxes the compilers)
03:22:19 <elliott> {-# OPTION -F -pgmF perl #-} ...
03:22:30 <elliott> well, you can't use perl, but
03:24:33 <elliott> oerjan: ooh, I have an idea
03:24:37 <elliott> use cpp and then do __FILE__
03:25:03 <FireFly> Can you name the file on anagolf?
03:25:06 <oerjan> hm do we have control over the file name?
03:25:13 <oerjan> let's see what it returns
03:25:28 <elliott> pretty sure it has an e in it though, it's like test.ext by default or something
03:25:56 <FireFly> well even better if you can just name the file putStrLn
03:26:07 <oerjan> an r would be nice, that's the only thing broken in putChar ... oh right
03:26:18 <elliott> hmph, no __FILE__ in the cpp by default
03:26:19 <oerjan> except it must end in .hs
03:26:31 <oerjan> _but_ we can define hs as a function
03:26:34 <FireFly> So define an identity function called hs
03:26:46 <elliott> since you can pass options to cpp I think
03:27:53 <oerjan> oh hm possibly ghc names the file something else before passing it to cpp
03:28:17 <elliott> hm, is OPTIONS ignored now or something...
03:29:45 <oerjan> i think zzo38 said the anagolf code is open source? can we find out how it calls ghc
03:29:50 <elliott> heh LANGUAGE is picky about syntax, it seems
03:31:54 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, it is on Github you can look up all of that stuff (including how the scoring is implemented, how execution limits work, and others)
03:31:56 <elliott> oerjan: proof of concept: http://sprunge.us/UiPO
03:32:01 <oerjan> elliott: does it at least accept newlines or tabs?
03:32:21 <elliott> but you can just use OPTIONS_GHC
03:33:10 <oerjan> oh __FILE__ gets put quotes around? :(
03:33:37 <elliott> yeah, it's a string literal
03:33:51 <elliott> wonder what it does in haskell
03:34:46 <elliott> fwiw: clang -E -undef -traditional -Wno-invalid-pp-token -Wno-unicode -Wno-trigraphs -I /usr/local/Cellar/ghc/7.8.3/lib/ghc-7.8.3/base-4.7.0.1/include -I /usr/local/Cellar/ghc/7.8.3/lib/ghc-7.8.3/integer-gmp-0.5.1.0/include -I /usr/local/Cellar/ghc/7.8.3/lib/ghc-7.8.3/include '-D__GLASGOW_HASKELL__=708' '-Ddarwin_BUILD_OS=1' '-Dx86_64_BUILD_ARCH=1' '-Ddarwin_HOST_OS=1' '-Dx86_64_HOST_ARCH=1' ...
03:34:52 <elliott> ... -U__PIC__ -D__PIC__ '-D__SSE__=1' '-D__SSE2__=1' -x assembler-with-cpp hello.hs -o /var/folders/mm/28htjypd3lq6zk80tbsf6g9h0000gn/T/ghc9659_0/ghc9659_1.hscpp
03:34:55 <elliott> that's what it uses to preprocess by default here
03:34:56 <elliott> none of those defines look useful
03:36:17 <oerjan> i see shinh has golfed the file names in the anagolf code too, i cannot find out if languages specific code is even there :(
03:37:31 <elliott> oerjan: oh and we can get spaces
03:38:26 <elliott> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Traditional-lexical-analysis.html are the fancy buggy traditional semantics we get to work with here
03:38:27 <oerjan> we have succ working, btw
03:38:44 <oerjan> so missing a character in strings isn't a disaster
03:39:19 <oerjan> so essentially our _only_ problem is getting a printing function.
03:39:39 <elliott> can we use foreign declarations
03:39:46 <elliott> you can quote the external C name in those
03:39:50 <elliott> and give the imported function your own name
03:40:29 <oerjan> hm we cannot use #define
03:40:43 <elliott> oerjan: btw we _can_ set file and line
03:40:45 <elliott> but it's probably not useful
03:40:53 <elliott> from within the file I mean
03:41:10 <oerjan> i guess there is no way to construct characters arithmetically in CPP?
03:43:41 <oerjan> i checked, everything in IO breaks
03:44:46 <elliott> % echo ':browse Prelude' | ghci | sed 's/ *//;/^$/d' | cut -d' ' -f 1 | grep -v '[Hello, world!]' | sort | fmt | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
03:44:58 <oerjan> http://sprunge.us/BIPP
03:45:13 <elliott> heh you are way ahead of me
03:45:43 <oerjan> actually i checked that just before i mentioned the problem here
03:46:05 * elliott pores over http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.8.3/html/users_guide/flag-reference.html
03:46:42 <oerjan> i removed them by hand, albeit with search highlighting
03:46:55 <elliott> -fcase-mergeEnable case-merging. Implied by -O.
03:47:04 <elliott> I briefly got excited thinking that might make the language case-insensitive...
03:47:35 <elliott> maybe there is some file _somewhere_ we can #include helpfully. probably not.
03:48:27 <elliott> oerjan: my best idea right now is that maybe there is some options you can pass to ghc that make it end up just passing the program direct to the C compiler, in which case you can use the C solution :P
03:48:46 <FireFly> You had the ability to use any command as a preprocessor? Does that include parameters to the preprocessor, too, or just the command name itself?
03:49:18 <elliott> for instance -x c might work
03:49:47 <elliott> but doesn't work in OPTIONS_GHC, rat
03:50:55 <elliott> though it might/probably does add some additional junk of its own
03:51:06 <oerjan> real C somehow feels a step too far, but if it's the only way...
03:51:25 <elliott> -F -pgmF echo gives hello.hs hello.hs /var/folders/mm/28htjypd3lq6zk80tbsf6g9h0000gn/T/ghc10789_0/ghc10789_1.hspp
03:51:52 <elliott> and it has to output to the latter.
03:52:21 <elliott> with -cpp -pgmP echo you get the nasty -I /usr/local/Cellar/ghc/7.8.3/lib/ghc-7.8.3/base-4.7.0.1/include -I /usr/local/Cellar/ghc/7.8.3/lib/ghc-7.8.3/integer-gmp-0.5.1.0/include -I /usr/local/Cellar/ghc/7.8.3/lib/ghc-7.8.3/include -D__GLASGOW_HASKELL__=708 -Ddarwin_BUILD_OS=1 -Dx86_64_BUILD_ARCH=1 -Ddarwin_HOST_OS=1 -Dx86_64_HOST_ARCH=1 -U__PIC__ -D__PIC__ -D__SSE__=1 -D__SSE2__=1 -x ...
03:52:27 <elliott> ... assembler-with-cpp hello.hs -o /var/folders/mm/28htjypd3lq6zk80tbsf6g9h0000gn/T/ghc10902_0/ghc10902_1.hscpp
03:52:30 <elliott> you also have control over the assembler and linker, though
03:53:26 <elliott> you could definitely make the cpp stage do a full C compile instead I think
03:53:32 <elliott> but a C binary is unlikely to be valid Haskell :P
03:53:51 <elliott> _maybe_ you could make the cpp stage do a C compile only up to the assembly stage. and then use __asm__ to output a haskell program. or something.
03:55:07 <FireFly> Oh wait, it needs to write to a file
03:55:17 <elliott> ooh, to get a range of characters?
03:55:46 <FireFly> But the fact that the preprocessor doesn't just write to stdout thwarts that
03:56:08 <oerjan> tr contains a forbidden character, mind you
03:56:57 <elliott> I need my terminal to highlight the forbidden characters :)
03:57:34 <elliott> oerjan: hm... do you have a link to the anagolf code repo?
03:57:58 <oerjan> https://github.com/shinh/ags
03:58:03 <oerjan> was open in another tab
03:58:27 <elliott> https://github.com/shinh/ags/blob/4fa35532fe1d73747384b326c0feb713a9b81bec/be/srv/s/_hs, at least
03:59:26 <FireFly> There's not much useful provided by coreutils that doesn't include a forbidden character
03:59:45 <elliott> so can we get ghc to output an executable file that looks like #!/bin/cat \n blah or similar
04:01:14 <elliott> this is _way_ too addictive a puzzle.
04:01:39 <elliott> okay one really simple thing would be if we could find some way to get the entire program text downcased, maybe
04:01:53 <elliott> then we might be able to get a FOREIGN PUTS
04:02:04 <elliott> camel casing makes it annoying, but...
04:02:20 <FireFly> Oh, right, the output has to be executable... I was thinking we could just stop after pre-processing
04:03:11 <elliott> if you can downcase the program
04:05:30 <FireFly> The preprocessor receives input on stdin and is supposed to write to the filename given as an argument?
04:06:03 <FireFly> It *might* be possible to use vi/vim as a preprocessor
04:06:47 <elliott> no, it receives filenames on stdin
04:07:13 <FireFly> well that's fine for vi(m)
04:07:34 <oerjan> <elliott> -F -pgmF echo gives hello.hs hello.hs
04:07:34 <oerjan> /var/folders/mm/28htjypd3lq6zk80tbsf6g9h0000gn/T/ghc10789_0/ghc10789_1.hspp
04:11:30 <oerjan> hm it's supposed to read from the first file and write to the last one?
04:12:43 <oerjan> and who knows why it gives the first one twice
04:13:16 <FireFly> oh come on, vim didn't want to write to a file that is already open in another buffer
04:13:38 <FireFly> vim +b2 +b'#' +wq'#' would've acted as "cp" otherwise
04:14:07 <oerjan> you need w! then, i guess
04:14:14 <FireFly> Tried that, it still complains
04:14:33 <oerjan> well then try to change buffer
04:16:34 <FireFly> vim +b2 +bun +wq'#' hello world # copies hello to world
04:16:47 <FireFly> Might be possible to use vim as a preprocessor then
04:16:59 <oerjan> note that the first argument is duplicated
04:17:09 <FireFly> Yeah, so the 2 would be a 3
04:19:06 <oerjan> :%s/.*/\L&/g to lowercase a buffer
04:20:05 <oerjan> there are going to be escaping problems, isn't there :(
04:20:43 <oerjan> and who knows if shinh.org even has vim :P
04:23:00 <elliott> OPTIONS_GHC isn't sh, at least
04:23:12 <FireFly> oerjan: well it allows vim as a golf language
04:26:42 <FireFly> I can't get -pgmF to work with parameters
04:29:31 <oerjan> i suppose we cannot be the first to try this problem with haskell
04:29:57 <elliott> I suspect we're already further out there than most people took it
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04:45:13 <oerjan> elliott: oh __FILE__ doesn't work with anagol either, i tried your proof of concept http://sprunge.us/UiPO
04:45:23 <oerjan> well, not in that way at least
04:45:48 <oerjan> because i had an idea to get around the problem, but __FILE__ has to work first
04:46:18 <oerjan> oh wait it's complaining about the #-0
04:46:25 <oerjan> *oh wait it's complaining about the #-}
04:46:32 <oerjan> let's see if we can fix that
04:47:14 <oerjan> ah yes, just adding a tab to that line
04:52:29 <oerjan> ok so my idea is this: can we get CPP and haskell to confuse each other about where strings end, so that __FILE__ turns into "interact.hs" where the first " is the _end_ of a string to haskell?
04:52:52 <oerjan> hm CPP doesn't know about {- -} comments does it
04:55:14 <oerjan> ooh this seems to work
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05:01:22 <oerjan> map fromEnum "Hello, world!"
05:01:25 <oerjan> > map fromEnum "Hello, world!"
05:01:26 <lambdabot> [72,101,108,108,111,44,32,119,111,114,108,100,33]
05:16:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BCompton * New user account
05:25:37 <oerjan> elliott: OPTIONS_GHC contains a forbidden H
05:25:56 <oerjan> and i basically had it working ;_;
05:49:00 <oerjan> > map pred "Hello, world!"
05:49:24 <oerjan> a couple that won't work there, but it might still be shorter overall
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06:15:59 <oerjan> (since me and elliott are discussing this in private, maybe i should mention that this all fails at the moment because anagol _doesn't_ let you choose the filename, hth)
06:32:40 <Sgeo> Wonder if I could make a Racket language that has something approximating Scala-style implicit parameters
06:44:28 <fizzie> elliott: I'm there nowadays. :/
06:45:54 <elliott> fizzie: good, I want to see the reaction for the program I'm about to submit
06:46:19 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be a very active channel.
06:46:40 <oerjan> well, let's see your reaction at least :P
06:47:11 <fizzie> I mean, it's not dead by any means, and there are occasional discussions, but I haven't seen much reacting to submissions so far.
06:47:52 <elliott> something tells me this submission may be an exception
06:48:13 <oerjan> well elliott is making something truly evil with a little help from me
06:48:47 <oerjan> and you started it by linking the helloworldless hello world
06:48:50 <fizzie> That's assuming people actually look at it. Though if it's 0B to something nontrivial, I think that might catch someone's attention.
06:49:54 <fizzie> (Or something else that clearly stands out in the announcement.)
06:50:27 <oerjan> well it's a haskell submission to a problem that should really be impossible in haskell
06:51:38 <fizzie> Then it's probably up to whether people will realize that based on the name.
06:51:51 <fizzie> I'm going to have to a breakfast now.
07:00:20 <oerjan> `run echo hi | tr f-e g-d
07:00:20 <HackEgo> tr: range-endpoints of `f-e' are in reverse collating sequence order
07:03:29 <lambdabot> ‘IM.intersection’ (imported from Data.IntMap),
07:03:45 <lambdabot> ‘IM.intersection’ (imported from Data.IntMap),
07:04:15 <oerjan> > let s=map ord "Hello, world!" in take 10 [n| n<-[2..], null(s`intersect`map(+n)s)]
07:04:19 <oerjan> > let s=map ord "Hello, world!" in take 10 [n| n<-[2..], null(s`intersect`map(+n)s)]
07:18:14 <fizzie> I used 2 in a DOS .com solution (since the existing one was bloaty).
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08:55:10 <elliott> I wish brute forcing gigantic search spaces was feasible
08:56:19 <Lymia> I wish Java let you return multiple primitive values from methods without a heap allocation somewhere
08:57:20 <elliott> Lymia: okay, you work on mine and I'll see to yours.
08:58:34 <Lymia> Your problem is solved.
08:59:21 <elliott> I... think my searchspaces are a bit too big for even that much progress
08:59:42 <elliott> you'll probably be able to return multiple primitive values from methods without a heap allocation somewhere in Java in 100 years, though!
09:00:13 <elliott> I was going to suggest passing in a callback or something, but I guess those get heap-allocated in Java.
09:00:15 <b_jonas> elliott: can't you pass in mutable slots (arrays) by reference to a Java method already?
09:00:44 <elliott> do those get stack-allocated? I don't know the JVM.
09:01:04 <b_jonas> no, I don't think so, but you can allocate one and call a method multiple times
09:01:26 <b_jonas> I don't really know, I don't do java
09:01:42 <elliott> well, it's Lymia's problem, not mine.
09:02:18 <elliott> I think it's hard to do just about anything in Java without a heap allocation, though.
09:02:50 <Lymia> <b_jonas> elliott: can't you pass in mutable slots (arrays) by reference to a Java method already?
09:02:55 <Lymia> <b_jonas> no, I don't think so, but you can allocate one and call a method multiple times
09:02:58 <Lymia> Not viable for compiler magic
09:03:22 <elliott> do solutions using JNI count? :p
09:03:26 <elliott> I guess JNI is really slow and awful.
09:03:35 <elliott> can you do something at the bytecode level?
09:06:05 <b_jonas> elliott: sure, just write the whole program in another language and call the main function from JNI
09:07:18 <b_jonas> don't bother to return, and during startup, free the hundreds of megabytes of copies of bytecode libraries allocated by java.
09:07:39 <b_jonas> or just exec, that might be cleaner
09:08:41 <Lymia> On the bytecode level? Nope
09:09:15 <Lymia> Only hope I have is some pattern that the JVM will consistantly JIT away
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10:11:18 <Taneb> I got up less than an hour ago and have already fixed a bug in a program I wrote at like 2 AM yesterday woo
10:12:09 <Taneb> (the issue was I misunderstood Data.Text's WHNF)
10:13:30 <Taneb> I was adding a brainfuck interpreter to a friend's IRC bot
10:14:03 <fizzie> Thanks, date formats: I just got an email from someone who had thought a thing was happening on May 1st (2015), when it's actually happening on January 5th.
10:14:15 <Taneb> Looking at it now, the code was pretty hideous
10:15:17 <Taneb> Except for one line, which is merely hideously lensy
10:15:20 <Taneb> "consumeElement I = tape.focus.enum <~ input %%= fromMaybe ('\0', "") . uncons"
10:18:08 <Taneb> Which I guess is as close to Haskell as JavaScript with JQuery is to JavaScript
10:21:49 <Lymia> fizzie, use ISO time format next time
10:22:05 <Lymia> You can say they're objectively wrong reading it that way.
10:28:52 <fizzie> Lymia: I used "January 5th", but the date passed several hands before reaching the sender of this email.
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11:05:56 <oerjan> today in girl genius, a darwin award.
11:09:06 <oerjan> you know the guy is creepy when you sympathize with the big bad killing him
11:11:47 <Taneb> Soon I shall have a shirt stating that zero is a natural number!
11:12:16 <Taneb> Solely because I have a lecturer who says it isn't and the computer scientists are wrong.
11:13:00 <oerjan> is there a shirt that has lots of such statements
11:14:00 <boily> “here is no universal agreement about whether to include zero in the set of natural numbers.”
11:14:40 <oerjan> 's ok, the ancient greeks didn't even include one, i hear
11:14:44 <Taneb> boily, I know, this is just to annoy my poor lecturer
11:15:05 <boily> no problem with annoying lecturers.
11:15:07 <oerjan> Taneb: buy one that says the opposite and wear it in the other camp
11:15:25 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't have any lecturers who that would really annoy
11:15:39 <Taneb> Otherwise, I'd regret not ordering that one at the same tome
11:16:16 <oerjan> hm what about a shirt that can be turned inside out
11:16:50 * oerjan is always so creative when overly tired, too bad his brain can't actually follow the ideas
11:17:07 <Taneb> That's be a good idea!
11:18:06 <oerjan> then you can stealthily change it while people aren't watching, confusing them
11:19:44 <boily> have we started embedding e-ink or similar into fabric? that way Taneb wouldn't even have to take off his clothes.
11:20:05 <boily> (unless it is natural for university students to suddenly take off their shirts idk hth)
11:20:13 <oerjan> of course the next step is e-ink tattoos
11:20:17 <Taneb> boily, I could probably get away with it
11:20:51 <Taneb> Yay, yukibot has a working brainfuck interpreter!
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11:23:33 <Taneb> @@ @type @pl \x -> x+1
11:23:42 <elliott> it really puzzles me that anyone would exclude 0.
11:23:48 <elliott> like, don't you like addition having an identity??
11:24:15 <Taneb> elliott, if you're dealing with prime numbers, excluding 0 is sometimes nice
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11:25:24 <elliott> I mean, I just have a hard time imagining someone deciding that the One True Form of the naturals must definitely be nothing more than a commutative semigroup.
11:26:36 <elliott> okay I guess {1,2,...} is a... semi-semi-ring?
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11:27:56 <oerjan> well without 0 it _is_ the free semigroup on one generator
11:28:08 <oerjan> with 0 it is the free monoid
11:28:45 <elliott> yeah but who likes semigroups.
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11:28:50 <elliott> oerjan: btw how can you stand the faces in girl genius?
11:30:13 <oerjan> it's the most realistically drawn webcomic i'm regularly reading
11:30:25 <elliott> https://i.imgur.com/QOK6Zpa.png they're terrifying.
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11:31:09 <Taneb> elliott, my own face is terrifying, it makes me feel at home
11:33:22 <oerjan> also, the colors are much better now than in the beginning http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030611#.VFDQb5UtBjo
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11:56:37 <int-e> heh, there still aren't any entries for "Make 24"
11:59:06 <int-e> Cheyenne Wright is doing an amazing job.
11:59:12 <oerjan> i got the vague impression from the discussion here (maybe from you) that the documentation wasn't enough to find the intended answer
12:00:06 <oerjan> i didn't read enough of it to see whether it was _supposed_ to give a unique answer
12:00:09 <int-e> It's a data compression task.
12:00:46 <int-e> As far as I understand, the solutions were derived manually, so there's no clear preferences.
12:02:19 <oerjan> but probably still too arduous
12:03:22 <int-e> I'm just wondering how good my 329 characters Haskell solution is. But I'm not going to be the first one to submit a solution.
12:03:39 <int-e> And it's a bit embarrassing to see that the program size exceeds the total output size.
12:07:26 <int-e> But I guess I can still submit the code during post mortem :P
12:07:51 <lambdabot> EFHK 291150Z 21026G38KT 9999 BKN021 10/05 Q1005 NOSIG
12:08:10 <lambdabot> LOWI 291150Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 11/03 Q1019 NOSIG
12:08:24 <int-e> quite nice, actually
12:08:32 <int-e> compared to the 09/07 a couple of days ago.
12:08:57 <fizzie> (I assume "26G38KT" is 26 knots, up to 38 in gusts.)
12:09:08 <fizzie> It's going to get freezing here Fri/Sat night again.
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12:12:52 <b_jonas> int-e: I've sent a solution so now you won't be the first
12:26:08 <b_jonas> heh, this one I just put in the golf is the weirdest looking regex I ever wrote
12:41:46 <nyuszika7h> haha, that's not surprising for #esoteric, a cryptic weather command
12:41:58 <b_jonas> int-e: now I've submitted a solution that is actually shorter than the outputs
12:42:48 <b_jonas> not haskell though. I don't do haskell golf.
12:43:19 <b_jonas> nyuszika7h: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Make+24
12:51:08 <int-e> b_jonas: The problem is a bit annoying for Haskell anyway, because it uses unicode, so the program will start with import System.IO;main=hSetEncoding stdout utf8>> and only then it becomes interesting. wasting 44 characters that way is annoying.
12:52:04 <int-e> (that initial string is 49 characters compared to 5 for just 'main=')
12:52:14 <elliott> nyuszika7h: you new here? hi
12:52:33 * elliott gets a sudden feeling he's asked that exact question of you already
12:52:35 <b_jonas> int-e: can't that be worked around somehow?
12:56:08 <int-e> Not as far as I know, unless we can convince shinh to set LC_CTYPE (or LANG) before invoking ghc.
12:56:51 <elliott> do we still have any fancy welcomes
12:56:53 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*elcome: No such file or directory
12:56:57 <HackEgo> bin/r13elcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome
12:57:03 <HackEgo> nyuszika7h: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:57:57 <int-e> b_jonas: with LC_CTYPE=C, trying to output a character 128 and above just results in <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
12:58:38 <nyuszika7h> ah, esolangs.org, I know about that site :)
12:58:40 <b_jonas> int-e: but isn't there some other function you can call?
12:59:13 <elliott> nyuszika7h: your nick reminds me of, like, mangled C++ or Haskell function names.
12:59:42 <nyuszika7h> well, "nyuszika" means "bunny" in Hungarian, the rest is a bit of a long story
13:00:17 <elliott> ah, hungarian. that explains why it looks mangled <_<
13:01:54 <b_jonas> but mangled C++ names usually have a ? or _Z or some other similar magic code in them
13:02:51 <elliott> it's more Z-encoding it reminds me of I think. https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Compiler/SymbolNames
13:03:28 <elliott> they get nice clusters of letters and numbers.
13:04:38 <int-e> b_jonas: not really. There are other routes, the most promising one is going via bytestrings.
13:05:21 <elliott> I think there might be some shorthand to set stdout to binary/latin-1?
13:05:22 <int-e> b_jonas: but just 'import Data.Bytestring' is already a mouthful.
13:05:25 <elliott> like a convenience function for it
13:05:31 <elliott> which would save a bit compared to utf8
13:05:40 <elliott> but also I think GHC always treats source programs as UTF-8, so
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13:28:50 <elliott> int-e: btw, you... probably can set LANG. via a certain really horrific hack that I am saving for this program I'm still working on.
13:29:13 <FireFly> Are you still working on the helloworldless one?
13:29:17 <elliott> it's not very space-effective though.
13:29:36 <elliott> FireFly: it's far worse than you could possibly imagine, I just need to do some brute forcing to finish it off
13:29:57 <elliott> but it's waiting until I have enough of a barin to trim down the search space, tomorrow.
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13:48:41 <b_jonas> is that about http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world ?
13:52:31 <b_jonas> is that even solvable in C++ ?
13:54:09 <b_jonas> oh, it probably is, because newline isn't banned
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14:00:58 <b_jonas> oh damn... I can't include anything.h
14:02:04 <b_jonas> I'm most definitely screwed then
14:02:21 <int-e> I guess there's a reason why no Haskell solution has been submitted...
14:02:33 <int-e> stupid 'r' in putChar
14:03:32 <elliott> you're very unlikely to find out how to do it.
14:03:48 <elliott> may I suggest waiting until tomorrow-ish to see? :p
14:04:50 <b_jonas> elliott: I'm trying C++, not haskell
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14:05:12 <elliott> you can do C++ just by cheating and pretending it's C, presumably
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14:06:09 <b_jonas> elliott: not easily... I'm trying, but I have to find a way to call a function without doing a #include
14:06:30 <elliott> c'mon, you can use functions without declaring them.
14:06:35 <elliott> or is g++ stricter than gcc about that?
14:06:35 <b_jonas> I can't call fputs or fputs, because even though I can declare them, I can't easily get a reference to stdout
14:06:56 <b_jonas> hmm, actually, I _coudl_ call fputs probably
14:07:07 <b_jonas> I can't call printf, write, send, because they contain wrong letters
14:07:13 <elliott> I mean, there's already a C solution
14:07:19 <elliott> a C++ solution will be identical
14:07:22 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, but C++ is much stricter
14:07:38 <b_jonas> both about converting pointers (that I can circumvent) and about calling undeclared functions
14:07:57 <b_jonas> besides, I want to make my own solution, not copy an existing one
14:08:03 <b_jonas> just wait a minute, I can solve this
14:08:23 <elliott> won't you need ExtERn "C"?
14:09:26 <b_jonas> wait, maybe I can just call printf
14:10:35 <b_jonas> hmm no, not with these compile optoins it seems
14:14:00 <b_jonas> and I can't even call functions with two arguments
14:14:52 <fizzie> There's a C++ solution now.
14:15:00 <b_jonas> but that might be because nobody tried
14:15:38 <b_jonas> it can probably solved at least by jumping to native code which you embed
14:15:57 <b_jonas> hmm wait, I have another idea
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14:19:59 <elliott> b_jonas: I think you misread fizzie's line
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14:24:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pietu1998 * New user account
14:59:58 <fizzie> I mean, I made one, by copying a C one.
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15:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lenguage]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40703 * Pietu1998 * (+3996) yeah, putting it out there
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15:56:15 <int-e> b_jonas: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world/int-e_1414598126&hs :-P
15:57:04 <int-e> I should try the three-letter shells.
15:58:11 <int-e> or the two letter one, which happens to be bash.
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16:00:18 <elliott> (but mine was nicer, I was just going to brute-force the tr)
16:00:24 <elliott> oh well, won't bother finishing it
16:00:25 <int-e> Oh I mixed up elliott and b_jonas. Mumble.
16:01:06 <elliott> and you can just use sh. and non-printable characters lose serious style points. also, this is a loophole that should probably really be fixed
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16:01:30 <elliott> also, you have too many newlines.
16:04:18 <int-e> /*/*/t? expands to /usr/bin/tr /usr/lib/tc
16:05:24 <elliott> /*/*/t?\"-y'\40-~'>$2<<<ockp?rwvUvt\$Jgnnq.\"yqtnf#$
16:05:29 <elliott> (yes contains forbidden characters, just a WIP)
16:05:47 <elliott> formerly I used a $'' for tr but replaced it with the /* version since it worked on my machine.
16:06:19 <elliott> I had some complete non-forbidden solutions but they were longer than I wanted. so I was going to brute force the best tr.
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16:07:34 <Bike> that's quite the haskell
16:07:56 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world/eban_1295411637&zsh is a cute tr.
16:08:36 <elliott> int-e: harder when you need to output a haskell program
16:09:22 <elliott> also, there's no need for the Ln in putStrLn.
16:10:00 <elliott> (I don't know if the noisy one adds it, but the eban one does)
16:10:14 <int-e> elliott: You provided me with excellent motivation: "<elliott> you're very unlikely to find out how to do it."
16:10:18 <elliott> similarly you can strip out the final newline if you are submitting the program by upload, though I don't know whether that's still counted or not
16:11:12 <elliott> anyway this kind of thing lets you bypass exec restrictions
16:12:00 <int-e> for a short time I was worried you'd be exploiting some GC error leading to code execution :P
16:14:17 <int-e> it's counted. I did head -c77 hw.hs > hw_.hs before submitting
16:15:13 <int-e> (since none of my standard editors seem to support saving without a final newline?)
16:17:02 <elliott> that's one of the few things I use emacs for these days...
16:17:12 <elliott> you might find shinh's caddy tool exciting
16:18:56 <int-e> oh. require-final-newline
16:22:24 <fizzie> Vim can do it too. (See the eol/noeol option.)
16:22:46 <fizzie> (Also needs 'binary' on to happen.)
16:23:16 <fizzie> (In short, ":set binary noeol".)
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16:26:05 <int-e> elliott: yes, the noisy one also had a putStrLn ... habitual golfing mistake.
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16:40:42 <Melvar> elliott: A fun thing that I thought of while reading about your and ørjan’s efforts is that I once wrote an idris function that retrieves the value of a variable by name (a string), but it only works for local variables sadly.
16:44:08 <Melvar> ( let foo = "bar" in getNamedVar "f\111\111"
16:44:43 <elliott> right. you showed it here, I think.
16:44:46 <elliott> I remember being disgusted.
16:45:06 <Melvar> Oh, I didn’t remember if you were there.
16:46:34 <Melvar> I just remembered it because it sure would be useful to be able to retrieve functions by a namestring for that particular problem.
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16:50:29 <int-e> elliott: ok, I'll stop at http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world/int-e+%28%2B+elliott%29_1414601317&hs ... I saved the single quotes for the <<< parameter by pushing everything into the 128..255 character range. ugly, yes. but it saves 2 bytes.
16:57:05 <int-e> `` dc<<<16i6D61696E3D7075745374722248656C6C6F20776F726C642122P
16:57:52 <elliott> need to escape that d, though
16:57:53 <Bike> uh where's the comma
16:58:02 <elliott> but yes, that would have style if you didn't steal it from the dc solution :P
16:58:54 <int-e> elliott: I forgot the comma. It's too long.
16:59:14 <elliott> > (length "/*/*/t[q-s]", length "tr$'\\162'")
17:00:19 <int-e> but $'t\162' has the same length (you had an extra r in there)
17:01:23 <int-e> elliott: note also that invoking dc like that isn't allowed.
17:01:30 <elliott> hmm, what does ITYP stand for?
17:01:37 <int-e> damn, you mentioned that.
17:01:39 <Bike> i think you pantsed
17:01:41 <int-e> "I think you'd prefer"
17:02:53 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
17:02:56 <int-e> I don't know, " tc - show / manipulate traffic control settings"
17:03:57 <elliott> sounds useful. I bet you can use it for this.
17:04:08 <elliott> (I'd suspect it's some programming language anagol has)
17:05:46 <Melvar> It’s about network traffic control in the linux kernel apparently?
17:05:49 <int-e> oooh. test.sh: line 1: /usr/lib/tc: is a directory
17:07:33 <int-e> but nevertheless, it's part of the oproute package
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17:37:53 <int-e> Oh I guess for some old problems the Haskell records are no longer obtainable. (for example because of import List vs. import Data.List)
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18:10:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CosmoConsole * New user account
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19:39:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40704 * CosmoConsole * (+16772) Created page with "'''FakeASM''' (''Fake'' ''As''se''m''bly) is an [[esoteric programming language]] in the past by [[User:CosmoConsole]] (in fact, so past that the original interpreter source i..."
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19:52:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40705&oldid=40704 * CosmoConsole * (+870) examples
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20:05:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40706&oldid=40705 * CosmoConsole * (+359) some additional formatting, fixes, fakeasm2
20:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40707&oldid=40706 * CosmoConsole * (+2)
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20:19:50 <fizzie> Speaking of unlikely POSIX permissions (like we were the other day), these files for some reason are u+rw, g+rx, o+r.
20:21:58 <fizzie> That's quite possible.
20:22:10 <int-e> umask 123, looks good
20:23:08 <b_jonas> int-e: is that decimal or octal?
20:23:48 <int-e> b_jonas: it's the complement of rw-r-xr-- = 654.
20:26:24 <fizzie> The files in question don't have any business being created with any x bits on, though.
20:26:35 <int-e> pity, there goes that theory
20:39:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40708&oldid=40707 * CosmoConsole * (-30) YOU ARE WRONG
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22:48:51 <zzo38> It should hopefully be easy to port ZTERM to other programming languages that can use binary I/O, probably it can be done in Haskell, and perhaps even with brainfuck.
22:50:26 <zzo38> Unlike things such as Glk, which are pretty difficult to port to anything at all (except for some kinds of interpreters).
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23:31:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40709&oldid=40708 * CosmoConsole * (+270)
23:31:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40710&oldid=40709 * CosmoConsole * (-1) /* Cat Program (FakeASM 2) */ case
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23:56:02 <Sgeo> I love Java, especially how Java EE follows all best practices. "Returns an array containing all of the Cookie objects the client sent with this request. This method returns null if no cookies were sent."
23:56:43 <int-e> I know, it's more efficient than returning an empty array.
23:57:15 <Sgeo> http://www.javapractices.com/topic/TopicAction.do?Id=59 maybe the authors of the standard library should read this site
23:59:08 <int-e> Of course ever since http://www.w3schools.com/tags/av_met_canplaytype.asp it's hard for an API's return value to be surprisingly bad anymore.
00:00:30 <Sgeo> I was hoping that the wtf was the W3Schools site
00:00:32 <fizzie> We discussed that the other month.
00:01:00 <int-e> they did forget the "FILE_NOT_FOUND" result though.
00:01:01 <Sgeo> At least those strings are truthy and "" is falsey
00:01:29 <Sgeo> Actually, that could be worse... it might act like a boolean for a little while
00:01:35 <fizzie> You really have to work at it to get more than a "maybe" out of Chrome, since so many formats support all kinds of unlikely codecs.
00:02:58 <fizzie> Sometimes if you specify the codec it will say "probably", e.g. for 'audio/webm;codecs="vorbis"'.
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00:04:45 <int-e> hmm "this combination does not make sense but we'll take our chances anyway?"
00:05:44 <int-e> nah, that's not it.
00:06:14 <fizzie> audio/webm is officially only Vorbis, anyway, so the codec specification is slightly superfluous.
00:07:00 <int-e> I'm stupidly mixing up "maybe
00:07:43 <fizzie> "Generally, a user agent should never return "probably" for a type that allows the codecs parameter if that parameter is not present."
00:08:11 <int-e> makes sense, actually
00:10:01 <int-e> But nevertheless, I find those return values ridiculous. If they wanted to express levels of certainty, why didn't they specify to return a float between 0 and 1?
00:10:53 <fizzie> What are your feelings on "0 but true"?
00:11:02 <int-e> Then at least I could probe all the types I have and pick the one that the browser considers best.
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00:13:13 <fizzie> No, I meant the Perl handling of the string "0 but true".
00:13:16 <Lymia> <Sgeo> I love Java, especially how Java EE follows all best practices. "Returns an array containing all of the Cookie objects the client sent with this request. This method returns null if no cookies were sent."
00:13:29 <Lymia> Even if you wanted efficiency
00:13:41 <Lymia> You can't spare a constant zero-length array so you don't make your users cry?
00:13:54 <Lymia> I bet the thought process was "oh, we should special case the zero case, our one-or-more code doesn't work"
00:14:04 <Lymia> Then someone's brain broke and put "return null" there instead of the sensible thing.
00:14:23 <ais523> fizzie: it's a reasonable hack that takes something that could be done anyway, and tweaks the warnings system to match common practice
00:15:02 <int-e> Lymia: didn't you see the sarcastic smiley! (I knew I forgot something.)
00:18:04 <int-e> fizzie: I'm not too happy with perl's idea that the string "0" is false.
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00:18:54 <int-e> but "00" isn't. Heh.
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00:22:27 <zzo38> I don't like that either (and PHP is bad at those kind of things too)
00:28:10 <zzo38> My opinion is best is "" is false and "0" is true
00:49:51 <Sgeo> "" and "0" as booleans should be mu
00:50:12 <Sgeo> Also, if I hate cold weather, how bad of an idea is a trip to Svalbard
00:50:30 <Sgeo> Do they have hot showers in Svalbard?
00:52:06 <Sgeo> Aren't there Norway people in here?
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01:24:37 <Sgeo> http://vindinium.org/ would a client for humans be legal?
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01:36:38 <Sgeo> If the worst news I had today was just that my originally desired trip to the eclipse was fully booked, I would be happy
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02:36:50 <Sgeo> Anyways... which is colder? Svalbard or Alaska?
02:37:40 <elliott> is this why you wanted to know whether iceland had subways :p
02:38:47 <Sgeo> That was when I was under the impression that the Iceland trip wasn't fully booked
02:39:12 <Sgeo> Eclipse from plane + aurora borealis sounds ideal
02:39:24 <Sgeo> s/Iceland/Faroe Islands/
02:46:56 <Sgeo> So, choices are try for eclipse+aurora in Svalbard, or just settle for aurora in Alaska
02:47:13 <Sgeo> Don't want to try for eclipse on the land of the Faroe Islands, heard there's bad weather
02:50:26 <Sgeo> "Armed guards will be on hand in case a polar bear should wander near and we provide warm drinks to keep the cold from your bones. "
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02:55:34 <Sgeo> Oh, the Svalbard trip I was looking at is sold out too
02:56:47 <Sgeo> Or... actually, might only be the option with flight from Oslo
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03:01:29 <elliott> travelling to svalbard but avoiding other places due to bad weather...
03:04:03 <Sgeo> clouds are worse than being cold, when it comes to viewing a solar eclipse
03:04:38 <Sgeo> I can only hope the armed guards know what they're doing
03:06:09 <elliott> "armed guards" might be referring to the panserbjørne...
03:07:03 <Sgeo> armoured bears?
03:11:47 <elliott> His Dark Materials reference. sorry.
03:13:07 <Sgeo> Ah. I thought you were referring to something real, like some sort of governmental anti-bear patrol, which happened to have the same name as some His Dark Materials thing
03:24:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rodolvertice * New user account
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03:44:39 <ais523> wow, I just got spam saying (NOT A SPAM) in the subject line
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05:39:26 <zzo38> I have a book titled "Pope-Pourri". It inclueds a list of some saints and their specialties, which include: communists; protection from fools, clowns, and idiots; protection from freethinkers; stuttering; vampires; children who are late in learning to walk; sick chickens; servants who break things; those who are insane...
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06:09:59 <centrinia> I can convert Brainfuck to Whitespace: https://gist.github.com/Centrinia/2836820aaf12e048e320
06:10:40 <coppro> I was hoping it was written in befunge :(
06:22:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40711&oldid=40710 * CosmoConsole * (+33)
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06:27:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40712&oldid=40664 * CosmoConsole * (+14) adding [[FakeASM]]
06:30:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40713&oldid=40656 * CosmoConsole * (+46) [[FakeASM]]
06:31:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40714&oldid=40711 * CosmoConsole * (+1) /* FakeASM2 */ I hate editing w/ mobile
06:37:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40715&oldid=40714 * CosmoConsole * (+1) /* Debug mode */ typos. my only weakness
06:40:02 <myname> these change messages are quite entertaining
06:40:37 <myname> at least i know what to do once i become a villan
06:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40716&oldid=40715 * CosmoConsole * (+2) /* Instruction list */ WSD fix
06:48:45 <Sgeo> http://thejh.net/misc/website-terminal-copy-paste
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07:28:01 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: I've sent a solution so now you won't be the first <-- ah, i'd been wondering if "jonas" was you...
07:32:18 <oerjan> oops, the hungarians are breeding
07:33:35 <elliott> I think the hungarians have been breeding for a very long time
07:35:36 <elliott> they're breeding in here? ew.
07:37:40 <oerjan> i see you have also discovered the danger of hinting to int-e that things are possible
07:39:59 <oerjan> centrinia: is that a whitespace program
07:40:02 <elliott> oerjan: have you been bitten by that too?
07:40:26 <centrinia> I converted a Brainfuck program to that. :p
07:40:37 <centrinia> https://gist.github.com/Centrinia/2836820aaf12e048e320 :p
07:41:21 <oerjan> elliott: only slightly, i tried to obliquely hint that there was a more efficient way of making local definitions in golfing, and he quickly guessed i was referring to pattern guards
07:44:03 <oerjan> somehow, though, i've yet to actually make an optimal golf solution that uses them
07:45:09 <oerjan> hm yet another person who prefers explicit braces in haskell. i think you're more common than people claim.
07:45:47 <ais523> Haskell benefits from not having to be whitespace-sensitive
07:46:02 <oerjan> elliott: see centrinia's gist
07:46:20 <ais523> elliott: do /I/ get to complain at /you/ for not following links?
07:46:29 <ais523> that would seem very out of character for both of us
07:46:58 <ais523> hmm, that's not doing the polynomial optimization, is it?
07:47:19 <ais523> also, github has a big signup advert at the bottom of gists too
07:47:28 <elliott> I didn't realise it was in response to the link
07:47:30 <ais523> it annoys and depresses me that they are this desperate for users
07:47:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: I might be inconsistent about what nick I use on anagolf among "jonas" and "b_jonas"
07:47:41 <b_jonas> I should try to stick to one
07:47:48 <elliott> ais523: it's not really an ad so much as the submit a comment form
07:48:08 <ais523> the homepage is definitely an ad, though
07:48:17 <b_jonas> yeah, I'm definitely inconsistent, damn
07:48:40 <b_jonas> but I think if you wait a few more days, some of the regulars on anagolf will submit a shorter perl
07:48:46 <elliott> well, okay, it is an ad too, but it serves a purpose
07:50:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: I prefer explicit braces in haskell too
07:52:52 <b_jonas> mind you, with all the pattern matching in function heads and the pointfree style, some haskell code contains very few braces, explicit or implicit
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08:00:26 <zzo38> Article about BANCStar says "Not known if strings index from 0 or from 1". I believe it is from 1.
08:01:10 <Sgeo> There are things known about BANCStar?
08:02:22 <ais523> Sgeo: there's been huge archaelogical investigation into BANCstar
08:02:29 <ais523> I'm not sure what people are using as sources
08:02:50 <Sgeo> I once completely failed to get the presumed current owners to give any documentation
08:04:04 <zzo38> This means that "10829,2446,22245,22012" in C16LNAPP.SCN would set the "Financial Summary?" variable to "N", which seems sensible given the context.
08:04:58 <Sgeo> experimentation?
08:05:06 <Sgeo> Someone has a BANCstar interpreter?
08:05:22 <zzo38> As far as anyone knows, nobody has an implementation.
08:05:28 <zzo38> Because, it got lost.
08:07:56 <Sgeo> What if the top secret proprietary information in the sample ends up getting revealed?
08:08:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: I already figured out some of it actually
08:09:54 <oerjan> centrinia: looking briefly over it, i think your optimize will not handle >++
08:10:23 <oerjan> because the Advance gets stuck between the Increments
08:11:57 <zzo38> I am guessing that command 3100 will result in an error (requiring you to retype the input) if the condition isn't true.
08:12:08 <centrinia> oerjan: It outputs p[1] += 2; p+=1;
08:13:09 <centrinia> But the optimize function does need some work.
08:14:25 <centrinia> The Whitespace output is not very optimal. :">
08:15:42 <oerjan> ais523 pointed out you weren't doing "polynomial" optimization
08:15:49 <oerjan> but that's fancy stuff imo
08:16:31 <centrinia> I guess it does linear optimization.
08:17:49 <centrinia> It converts while(*p) { *p--; p[i1] += inc1; } to p[i1] += inc1 * *p; *p = 0;
08:17:54 <ais523> oerjan: it's needed to be competitive with the better BF optimizers
08:18:11 <ais523> meanwhile, RLE optimization is pretty basic, even fungot does that
08:18:11 <fungot> ais523: but cyrus! are you leaving! nothing here using the dna from animals, only the 3 entities you saw will help you leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
08:18:32 <oerjan> oh your "isStationary" is basically the same as "checking all loops are balanced", but it needs to be applied after the optimizations that move Advance?
08:19:15 <elliott> I think some kind of de-tapeification optimisation would be interesting.
08:19:24 <elliott> something that tries and extracts underlying variables and maybe even data structures.
08:19:48 <zzo38> The wiki says that 2999 introduces a new page. I think rather, a prompt with the response field's position being given as a negative number ends a page.
08:19:57 <centrinia> elliott: Wouldn't that involve dry runs of the program?
08:19:58 <zzo38> (This makes it even less clear what "stop code" really means.)
08:20:23 <elliott> centrinia: I don't see why
08:20:36 <centrinia> oerjan: isStationary is used in very experimental parts of the code. :p
08:20:58 <centrinia> Does polynomial optimization work on something like this? http://codepad.org/BWiQokT1
08:21:44 <Jafet> elliott: that's just called decompilation
08:22:10 <mroman> Sgeo: jloughry may have one @BANCStar
08:22:21 <oerjan> centrinia: i think it can handle all balanced loops in principle?
08:22:36 <mroman> But the last thing I've heard from him was him trying to rescue something from a floppy disk
08:22:49 <mroman> which he told me was somewhat corrupt.
08:22:56 <mroman> Since then I haven't heard from him again.
08:23:49 <mroman> I've also tracked the company down that now acquired (through various steps) the company behind BANCStar
08:23:56 <mroman> but they haven't answered to my e-mails
08:26:27 <mroman> Apparentely there also was a developer manual that they have written for themselves
08:26:46 <mroman> (They reverse engineered bancstar and documented what they have found out)
08:27:14 <mroman> However, he couldn't find a copy of that.
08:28:00 <mroman> So I don't know how to get more information about it anymore ;)
08:28:28 <mroman> the only idea I have left is ask jloughry about other people that worked with BANCStar
08:28:40 <mroman> (i.e. work colleagues of him)
08:28:52 <mroman> and then contact them and ask if they somehow have something laying around :D
08:29:32 <oerjan> <elliott> I think there might be some shorthand to set stdout to binary/latin-1? <-- we compared those, setBinaryMode ... True is actually longer than using setEncoding ... utf8
08:30:00 <oerjan> and utf8 is shorter than char8
08:30:03 <elliott> > (length "setBinaryMode ...$1==1", length "setEncoding ... utf8")
08:30:04 <zzo38> mroman: Well, a lot of things I figured out are contrary to what is on the wiki and I am making a list of them on the talk page right now.
08:30:24 <elliott> okay so it can't compete I guess
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08:31:07 <oerjan> oh forgot the h prexix, it's hSetBinaryMode and hSetEncoding
08:38:28 <centrinia> Which Brainfuck compilers do full-blown polynomial optimization?
08:38:53 <Sgeo> polynomial optimization?
08:38:54 <elliott> https://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
08:39:07 <ais523> now I'm wondering "what's the shortest true in Prolog"
08:39:09 <Sgeo> I know some trivial optimizations
08:39:25 <ais523> basically because you might be able to use ! but it has horrendous side effects
08:39:43 <centrinia> esotope generated this: http://codepad.org/gXW1K2ma
08:39:53 <Sgeo> Eliminating -+ and the [ after ]... and <> etc
08:39:56 <centrinia> I suspect that the loop can be completely removed.
08:40:21 <oerjan> ais523: isn't in some sense the empty predicate true
08:40:50 <oerjan> but i guess that cannot be used everywhere
08:40:54 <ais523> oerjan: no, the empty predicate is fail; the simplest possible nonempty predicate is true
08:40:59 <ais523> or, well, I see what you mean
08:40:59 <Sgeo> Oh, BF->C, not BF->BF
08:41:09 <ais523> I guess you could just do "t." and then use t instead of true
08:41:11 <elliott> centrinia: note that there are two esotopes :/
08:41:16 <ais523> that's three characters even if you only use it once
08:41:49 <centrinia> elliott: That was the one you linked. :(
08:41:52 <oerjan> ais523: well i also mean, that many times when you would want to use t, you can just leave it out
08:42:12 <ais523> oerjan: yes, but the same is true of booleans in lots of other cases
08:44:14 <oerjan> centrinia: hm indeed, so then it doesn't do full polynomials in that case
08:46:54 <oerjan> mind you, while i _think_ you can optimize all balanced loops into direct formulas, you are going to need modulus arithmetic and stuff in general
08:47:05 <oerjan> especially if cells are bounded wrapping
08:48:17 <oerjan> that is not true. you can do exponentiation in a balanced way, i should know since that was the only way i saw to convert input properly for 3-cell bf.
08:48:34 <oerjan> so there are probably limits
08:49:06 <oerjan> (i have _still_ not found a way to do proper output, mind you.)
08:51:11 <oerjan> centrinia: [->[->++<]>[-<+>]<<] will multiply the second cell by 2 to the power of the first, essentially
08:51:21 <oerjan> (with 3rd cell starting as zero)
08:51:37 <oerjan> so it's not describably by just a polynomial
08:53:39 <oerjan> centrinia: also, i once proved that brainfuck is turing-complete with just 3 unbounded cells, you can find the details at http://esolangs.org/Collatz_function
08:54:04 <centrinia> oerjan: http://codepad.org/10Gxjwwm
08:56:16 <oerjan> centrinia: yes, and that still contains a loop. also it's not very optimal even inside the loop, especially lines 4 and 5 should be easily combined?
08:58:03 <centrinia> This is equivalent: http://codepad.org/B8gxa2Hc
09:00:19 <ais523> oerjan: does three-cell collatz in BF use unbounded loops?
09:00:45 <oerjan> so that's even stronger proof you cannot make a formula
09:02:44 <oerjan> centrinia: that's a lot of duplication of code just to avoid having p[2] = 0 in the inner loop
09:05:19 <oerjan> although i was really intending for p[2] == 0 to start with
09:05:37 <centrinia> But my optimizer doesn't know that. :(
09:05:47 <centrinia> It doesn't know that p[2] has not been touched.
09:06:34 <oerjan> i recall back when pikhq did similar stuff, he optimized the whole program with the assumption things started as 0.
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09:09:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40717&oldid=40092 * Zzo38 * (+1725)
09:09:35 <oerjan> i think he had a dictionary of cells with known values
09:09:45 <oerjan> or something like that
09:10:01 <zzo38> I still cannot quite figure out "combination goto"
09:15:05 <oerjan> fizzie: what is "chocobi-C"
09:15:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40718&oldid=40717 * Zzo38 * (+96)
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09:24:27 <oerjan> <elliott> similarly you can strip out the final newline if you are submitting the program by upload, though I don't know whether that's still counted or not <-- it's even easier on the form, of course
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09:55:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40719 * Rdebath * (+287) /* Um Esoteric Language ? */ new section
09:58:53 <J_Arcane> http://www.windytan.com/2014/10/visualizing-hex-bytes-with-unicode-emoji.html
10:16:25 <b_jonas> isn't http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lenguage sort of like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary except compressed more efficiently?
10:16:51 <b_jonas> and wasn't there a third brainfuck variant simliar to these, but with exclamation marks?
10:17:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Where I copied it from, though I guess you already guessed that.
10:18:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40720&oldid=38803 * B jonas * (+15) /* See also */
10:18:15 <b_jonas> ah right, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary#See_also actually links to a few others
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10:38:24 <oerjan> like unary, except compressed more efficiently, sounds like a plan.
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10:41:00 <fizzie> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Golunar is very much that, too.
10:43:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that, and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary links to http://esolangs.org/wiki/MGIFOS and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ellipsis as well, which are all variants of the same thing
10:43:25 <fizzie> Yes, though Golunar adds another layer of pointlessness.
10:43:32 <mroman> Intel doesn't publish all bugs in its processors
10:43:44 <fizzie> The provided converter doesn't even construct the corresponding unary string. :/
10:43:47 <mroman> some information can only be obtained under an NDA agreement for OEMs
10:43:50 <b_jonas> this is why creating new brainfuck variants should be banned
10:44:54 <oerjan> mroman: just more evidence for my theory that we're toast the moment the first real cyber war starts
10:48:02 <mroman> That's pretty much clear, yes.
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10:48:56 <mroman> I guess it shouldn't be really hard for a country to ruin another countries economy just by doing some cyber attacks on some companies and infrastructure in that country
10:50:03 <mroman> Cyber war oughta be much cheaper than conventional war?
10:50:21 <mroman> Military equipment (bombs, ships, tanks) are really expensive.
10:51:04 <mroman> that being said: You can have the cleverest hacker and try to hack some other bigger country
10:51:16 <mroman> chances are they won't respond with a cyber war but with a few drone strikes
10:51:32 <mroman> I'm not sure who's better off then.
10:52:23 <mroman> (by cyber war I mean "war" not the "spy" thing that's going on already anyway)
10:57:45 <mroman> fungot: How do you think about cyber war?
10:57:45 <fungot> mroman: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! crono...! there was nothing i could do! we must get help from guardia kingdom, and my ultimate creation, the mighty lavos! haahahahaha! fools! i only ride with him, you are gentle, isn't he?
10:57:53 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
10:57:55 <mroman> fungot: How do you think about cyber war?
10:57:56 <fungot> mroman: the second was mental. engaged to be married to an older and handsome t-rex to confront their greatest fear: becoming separated from each other and then make a mental note, i'm going back to bed, falling asleep, and this world to get worked!
10:58:29 <mroman> fungot: there was a first and second cyber war?
10:58:29 <fungot> mroman: t-rex, that sounds like a crazy friday as weekend, why not monday too?
10:58:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:58:54 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
10:58:58 <Taneb> I don't really know what I'm doing in this vision/graphics practical
10:58:59 <fungot> mroman: oats sat and listened. that's not what i wanted out of life. sooner or later, i've got to hand it to petulia. she spotted a gap in the things they said.
10:59:12 <Taneb> It seems to be saying I can use MATLAB to turn an image into some pretty graphs
10:59:19 <Taneb> Without explaining why the graphs are useful
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11:03:50 <boily> Taneb: they are pretty. that's where their usefulness lies.
11:04:52 <boily> (seriousness of proposition depends on which kind of class and/or department this is.)
11:07:28 <boily> fungot: bon matin. enjoying some gapspotting?
11:07:28 <fungot> boily: " i was only a sweeper's shrine!' and use the corpse as a swing.
11:08:21 <boily> corpse swingin', gap spottin', shrine sweepin' fungot.
11:08:22 <fungot> boily: he was vaguely aware that there was this about agnes's shape. it was of a huge wooden horse. more correctly, argument.
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11:13:48 <boily> `relcome centrinia
11:14:25 <boily> didn't we have a backup `relcome somewhere?
11:14:44 <Taneb> Hi, centrinia, this is the channel for Esoteric Programming Languages! Check out our wiki at http://www.esolangs.org
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11:14:57 <Taneb> If you wanted the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net
11:15:11 <fizzie> Taneb: Too monochromatic.
11:15:21 <fizzie> Also there is a backup welcome in fungot, but no backup relcome.
11:15:28 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you be giving me any lip.
11:15:29 <fungot> fizzie: the show must go on"! what's so special about lord hong, watching the world go by. when they were in some dark alley, his stomach was full of this big, solid men, the kind of commander who comes up with all the treasure we want,' whispered bilious.
11:16:19 <fizzie> I think I tried fitting a relcome in, but the low ul/bf output length limits combined with the color codes made it inpractical.
11:16:36 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball
11:16:44 <fungot> just_testing: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of es ...
11:17:04 <fizzie> See, even without colors it's incomplete.
11:17:30 <boily> Taneb: you should go the myndzi way, and embrace your inner cyborg.
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14:16:37 <mroman> why does "git add *.java" add recursively
14:16:42 <mroman> but "git add *.sh" does not?
14:18:35 <ion> You might be using a shell that does expansions weirdly. It may expand *.java to "*.java" when no files happened to match (instead of an error) but *.sh to "foo.sh" "bar.sh" "baz.sh" when files happened to match.
14:19:40 <ion> “setopt bad_pattern” to make zsh behave nicer.
14:19:58 <ion> Wait, no, setopt nomatch.
14:42:19 <Gregor> git does its own globbing? >_O
14:42:33 <Gregor> Is there no depth of stupidity to which this tool will not sink? O_<
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15:58:50 <J_Arcane> https://gitorious.org/eternity-prj/eternityvision/source/524686c237f2f85c19b2e33a5ee5ca7a7a06a74d:Documentation/scheduler/sched-BFS.txt
16:01:17 <mroman> ion: that seems to be the thing, yes
16:06:00 <mroman> Gregor: why shouldn't git do globbing?
16:06:16 <Gregor> Because of exactly the problem you just found.
16:06:40 <mroman> if you have like 10K log files in a directory
16:06:40 <Gregor> If two tools solve the same problem in slightly different ways and present a result that makes it nonobvious which tool solved the problem, you will blame the wrong tool for the bug.
16:06:57 <mroman> because your shell will expand that to a too long command line
16:07:31 <mroman> which means I'd prefer if rm would just use *.log as a filter
16:07:45 <Gregor> The fact that globbing in the shell can cause too-long command lines is no reason to go to the DOS dark ages of globbing @_@
16:08:22 <Gregor> It's more important that its behavior be consistent than robust, especially when the expense is making robustness a problem for every conceivable tool rather than one.
16:09:24 <mroman> for all I care the OS should provide an API for that
16:10:13 <mroman> with iterator style stuff
16:10:15 <Gregor> The OS does provide an API for that, it's called glob(). But git wants its own globbing behavior, so it doesn't use glob(). Thus, it gets inconsistent behavior. If everyone used glob(), then the behavior would be the same, except that bugs are now spread across thousands of programs instead of one.
16:10:40 <mroman> so you don't run out of memory if you happen to have so many files that a char** of filenames wouldn't fit into memory
16:10:42 <Gregor> (Also there would be no way to explicitly name a file with stars in it)
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16:11:22 <mroman> some OSes don't allow * in file names anyway
16:12:16 <mroman> Did you mean "if everyone used glob() (from the OS)"
16:12:22 <mroman> or "if everyone used his own glob"?
16:12:58 <mroman> also the OS might allow to escape *
16:15:43 <mroman> fungot: are you running on a BefungeOS server?
16:15:43 <fungot> mroman: cohen shrugged, and shook his head, and strode away. now the best efforts of the official history?' said
16:18:46 <mroman> Ooknary is the same as unary but replaces 0 with Ook
16:30:19 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
16:38:56 <mroman> promptfile->type = atoi(secondtoken); /* and convert them into */
16:39:11 <mroman> prompt_type[prompt[i].type]);
16:39:32 <mroman> if the prompt-type can be 2304
16:39:36 <mroman> wouldn't this segfault?
16:39:51 <mroman> prompt_type is a char[9]
16:40:44 <mroman> (first one is from L_RDPROM.C line 88)
16:41:02 <mroman> second is from L_REPORT.c:498
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16:42:58 <elliott> Gregor: I believe git does globbing itself because the shell can't glob inside trees and such.
16:43:04 <mroman> zzo38: prompt types are colors
16:43:29 <elliott> Gregor: not that that matters for git add.
16:43:49 <elliott> but it makes some sense if you think of git(1) as providing an interface to a filesystem that the OS/shell doesn't know about.
16:44:32 <elliott> "If everyone used glob(), then the behavior would be the same, except that bugs are now spread across thousands of programs instead of one.
16:44:37 <elliott> tbf this isn't really very compelling
16:44:41 <elliott> because this is already the case with, like, getopt
16:44:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40721&oldid=40718 * 160.85.232.177 * (+200) + prompt type
16:44:53 <elliott> (you could say that's an argument for centralising option parsing instead, though)
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17:44:36 <MDude> http://i.4cdn.org/x/1414647728741.png
17:48:15 <MDude> Oh, wrong channel.
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18:13:01 <Melvar> elliott, Gregor: Similarly, I can give globs to yum in paths to whatprovides, and in package names, neither of which are accessible to the shell. You *always* need to know which program is interpreting the glob. This is why one should set failglob if using bash.
18:13:56 <elliott> I have some sympathy for Windows' model where programs get to interpret everything.
18:14:10 <elliott> I have more sympathy for a model that moves more to the shell and lets programs hook into it better, though.
18:14:33 <elliott> (I mean, {bash,zsh}-completions is already a thing.)
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18:29:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40722&oldid=40712 * 83.101.88.18 * (+13) /* S */
18:31:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Strato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40723&oldid=40695 * 83.101.88.18 * (+42)
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19:17:50 <zzo38> I believe the BANCNova documentation contains errors too. Since, I tried to figure out from looking at the printout to see what it looks like those commands would do in the given contexts.
19:18:07 <zzo38> (I did not look at the LINK source.)
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19:26:58 <b_jonas> hmm, I gotta enjoy it while it lasts: I'm still leading http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Make+24
19:27:19 <b_jonas> some golfer will probably easily do much shorter though
19:27:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: I wrote most of a dc solution before realizing the numbers aren't always in the same order as the input. :)
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19:28:41 <b_jonas> in fact, I think a gzipped solution will probably be shorter than mine
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19:42:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40724&oldid=40721 * Zzo38 * (+303)
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19:48:02 <b_jonas> I'm repeatedly submitting another ()[rand 3] solution
19:49:12 <b_jonas> waiting for the 1/27 chance
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19:54:27 <fizzie> The dc solution I had picked the thing by summing all the numbers and doing vv1-v.
19:54:40 <fizzie> That's essentially sqrt(sqrt(sqrt(sum))-1).
19:55:00 <fizzie> (With a sqrt that truncates down.)
19:55:02 <b_jonas> int-e: right... I just realized that that's two chars shorter
19:55:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: huh... which problem is that? euclidean norm?
19:56:07 <fizzie> The one you're talking about, I assume.
19:56:13 <fizzie> Make 24, and the input numbers, of course.
19:56:25 <fizzie> vv maps the sums of inputs to 1, 2 and 5, 1- goes to 0, 1 and 4, and the last v to 0, 1 and 2.
19:56:32 <b_jonas> to distinguish between the inputs
19:57:19 <b_jonas> I had a previous version that basically just did $_=<>;... /3/? second input :/8/? first input : third input
19:57:21 <int-e> how about last number modulo 3
19:57:48 <int-e> or do you need the rest of the stack to be empty?
19:58:03 <b_jonas> I did that because that was deterministic, later I changed to the less deterministic version
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19:58:44 <b_jonas> hmm... so my zlib solution is only 10 shorter than the simple solution? funny
19:58:52 <b_jonas> zlib sucks! I can compress almost as good
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19:59:04 <b_jonas> well, it's probably possible to do much better
19:59:26 <fizzie> int-e: That could work, too. I did a loop to stack them all in a register (and incidentally sum) so that I could easily then read them in the "right order", but as I mentioned it was assuming all the numbers appear in the same order in the solution as they do in the input.
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20:00:40 <b_jonas> and this time I did remember to check "open code statistics'
20:05:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40725&oldid=40719 * CosmoConsole * (+335)
21:08:49 <FreeFull> Not sure if there is a convienient library for it though
21:19:03 <fizzie> I made a real simple bash zcat thing since the Perl solution looked so sad alone.
21:19:43 <fizzie> (There's so little to compress, xz's worse.)
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21:55:42 <int-e> hmm, 218 for Perl without zlib (using $$)
21:55:46 <zzo38> I wanted to store geolocation in a version 1 UUID, but might it work to just store a part of the IP address instead of a geolocation? (This part of IP address might be used to indicate the ISP)
21:55:57 <int-e> and I won't submit, I have no energy to compete.
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22:01:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40726&oldid=40716 * CosmoConsole * (+1165)
22:08:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just take a cruise near Hawaii in 2016
22:08:39 <Sgeo> But long-term planning scares me
22:09:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40727&oldid=40726 * CosmoConsole * (-56) /* Deadfish (FakeASM 2) */ doubt that those labels were ever needed
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22:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40728&oldid=40727 * CosmoConsole * (+105) adding categories
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22:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40729&oldid=40728 * CosmoConsole * (+50) FakeASM2 is out
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22:21:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40730&oldid=40729 * CosmoConsole * (+12) /* See also */
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22:42:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CosmoConsole]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40731 * CosmoConsole * (+76) Created page with "I have nothing clever to put on my user page. == Languages == * [[FakeASM]]"
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22:50:24 <int-e> b_jonas: 205 now, no zlib, using $$, and using the input.
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23:12:31 <centrinia> Whitespace support in firmware shouldn't be that hard.
23:24:25 <FireFly> Oh, the helloworldless hello world in haskell did get submitted
23:24:39 <FireFly> 73, that's a respectable score actually :P
23:26:36 <oerjan> that's the one which uses lots of control codes
23:26:45 <coppro> oh god that's horrible
23:27:46 <oerjan> the one without (and which is based on a solution in another language, is more than 100
23:29:41 <oerjan> coppro: it's hard to do better when every _single_ output function in the Prelude, and "import", contains a forbidden character.
23:31:25 <FireFly> I thought the horrible solution was pretty great
23:31:50 <int-e> it shouldn't be hard to get rid of the control characters (other than tabs) without too many extra characters.
23:32:43 <oerjan> i suddenly got an insane idea, to do this, while still using pgmF, but without escaping haskell proper
23:32:51 * FireFly wonders why goruby has a 'h' command for printing hello world
23:32:57 <FireFly> It looks like a serious implementation
23:32:57 <oerjan> namely, "ghci" contains no forbidden chars
23:32:58 <int-e> henkma got Beligan Numbers in 69 characters, and fast ... I wonder how.
23:33:36 <ais523\unfoog> FireFly: goruby is ruby, plus an 'h' command for printing hello world
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23:33:41 <oerjan> and within ghci, :m _does_ allow you to load modules, and you can get things printed without functions
23:33:41 <int-e> oerjan: -phmF is invoked with 2 arguments and you have to produce output in the file specified by the second one; it's not a filter
23:33:52 <int-e> oerjan: so using ghci will be hard, I think.
23:34:08 <FireFly> ais523\unfoog: I see, so I guess it's not a serious ruby implementation then
23:34:18 <FireFly> Looked like one at first glance
23:34:30 <ais523\unfoog> it's serious in the sense that ruby is serious and it's a minor patch on ruby
23:35:01 <oerjan> what options _do_ ghci take hm
23:38:05 <oerjan> hm it seems you can only get it to load the file itself, which works fine, but not to do anything afterward
23:39:32 <oerjan> bah even that doesn't work, because having a nonexistent file on the command line prevents it from loading the ones which do exist
23:39:50 <oerjan> oh well, it was an idea anyway
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23:41:20 <oerjan> int-e: i'm also wondering about the belgians
23:43:28 <int-e> ok, it's not hard to make it fast, just don't use so many "read" calls.
23:43:55 <int-e> but how to do that without making the program larger ...
23:46:44 <oerjan> you mean while making it a lot _smaller_
23:46:58 <int-e> one step at a time
23:47:57 <oerjan> my second to last version is one char longer and the shortening does precisely that move of read from applying only to the original list chars to each "cycled" list char
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23:48:48 <oerjan> never submitted it though, it's 73 but you had already got that
23:50:17 <int-e> I recall you mentioning it here
23:50:47 <oerjan> well possibly, it's not the only one i haven't bothered to submit
23:52:32 <elliott> FireFly: it's not go ruby or anything
23:52:38 <elliott> it's golf ruby, it's part of the official ruby distribution I think
23:52:57 <elliott> FireFly: it got independently reinvented actually :p
23:53:08 <elliott> re: the helloworldless hello world
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23:57:58 <int-e> with the big hint that it's possible.
00:00:00 <ais523\unfoog> what's the definition of "helloworldless"? no characters from "helloworld"?
00:00:04 <elliott> int-e: please, like telling you it's definitely completely possiblew ouldn't have motivated you even more
00:00:09 <int-e> ais523\unfoog: right
00:00:15 <elliott> that's how I got to the solution in the first place, after all
00:00:21 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: "Hello, world!" actually
00:00:36 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: thus no spaces either, which I assume is one of the harder parts
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00:00:41 <ais523\unfoog> although this is Haskell, you have $ to substitute
00:00:49 <elliott> not really hard, you can use tabs usually
00:01:30 <int-e> my first solution didn't have tabs. it extracted a space from the SUDO_COMMAND environment variable...
00:01:55 <int-e> I felt silly after seeing other solutions that used tabs
00:02:41 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: it turns out that everything is easy to do in haskell _except_ finding an actual output function not containing those chars
00:06:21 <oerjan> except for that, it has both numerical string escapes and map(succ) which would work
00:07:49 <int-e> but succ.succ or pred.pred work.
00:08:00 <oerjan> no, you cannot use pred
00:08:43 <int-e> > map((-1+).(-1+))"Jgnnq.\"yqtnf#"
00:08:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
00:09:43 <oerjan> > [pred,pred.pred] <*> ["Hello, world!"]
00:09:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Char])
00:09:45 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Enum.pred’
00:09:54 <oerjan> > [pred,pred.pred] <*> "Hello, world!"
00:09:56 <lambdabot> "Gdkkn+\USvnqkc Fcjjm*\RSumpjb\US"
00:10:47 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'R'
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00:11:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Char])
00:11:04 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Enum.succ’
00:11:41 <oerjan> oh well that's no shorter than \31 and \30
00:11:57 <oerjan> which are presumably easier to remember
00:11:58 <int-e> space, the final frontier, right next after the United States...
00:12:07 <int-e> but it's so nicely obscure.
00:12:28 <int-e> > ("\US0123","\310123")
00:14:07 <oerjan> > map length["map(succ)\"G\\99kkn+\\USvnqkc\"","map(succ.succ)\"Fcjjm*\\RSumpjb\\US\""]
00:14:26 <oerjan> looks like two succs isn't worth it
00:15:20 <int-e> succ less, quote more
00:16:00 <oerjan> i forgot the final ' ' of the first
00:16:15 <oerjan> > map length["map(succ)\"G\\99kkn+\\USvnqkc\32\"","map(succ.succ)\"Fcjjm*\\RSumpjb\\US\""]
00:16:24 <oerjan> > map length["map(succ)\"G\\99kkn+\\USvnqkc\32\"","map(succ.succ)\"Fcjjm*\\RSumpjb\\US\""]
00:16:41 <oerjan> > map length["map(succ)\"G\\99kkn+\\USvnqkc\\32\"","map(succ.succ)\"Fcjjm*\\RSumpjb\\US\""]
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00:23:18 <HackEgo> bananagram: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:26:54 <HackEgo> vanila: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:27:43 <elliott> int-e: haha, I like that SUDO_COMMAND thing
00:35:29 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/raw/113500
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00:49:53 <ais523\unfoog> how do you iterate over dictionary keys in JavaScript?
00:50:12 <oerjan> `fetch http://lpaste.net/raw/113500
00:50:14 <HackEgo> 2014-10-31 00:50:07 URL:http://lpaste.net/raw/113500 [2316] -> "113500" [1]
00:50:36 <int-e> so it converts brainfuck to C, neat.
00:51:39 <HackEgo> find: `esobf8': No such file or directory
00:51:52 <Sgeo> ais523\unfoog: for in and checking hasOwnProperty? Or do you mean an actual Map?
00:52:13 <Sgeo> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/for...in
00:52:17 <Sgeo> for (variable in object) {... }
00:52:22 <lifthrasiir> for (var key in {a:1, b:2}) console.log(key); // a, b
00:52:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin/bf8
00:53:03 <oerjan> `run echo ",[.,]" | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 113500
00:53:03 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdint.h> \ uint8_t a[1024]={0};uint8_t*p=a;main(){setbuf(stdout,NULL);*p=getchar();while(*p){putchar(*p);*p=getchar();}}
00:53:34 <Sgeo> ais523\unfoog: pastie sample?
00:54:11 <Sgeo> Had to delete the b in the comment, because Chrome was trying to autocomplete it when I pressed enter
00:54:15 <vanila> its cool how the bot downloaded and ran it
00:54:16 <Sgeo> print is not a statement
00:54:25 <Sgeo> Use console.log()
00:54:27 <lifthrasiir> ais523\unfoog: console.log(y); should work
00:54:49 <Sgeo> Except in IE where you should check for the existence of console first
00:54:56 <oerjan> vanila: HackEgo runs nearly arbitrary linux commands
00:55:25 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: well, it runs arbitrary commands, just those commands don't always do what you'd expect
00:55:31 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:56:58 <vanila> It would be nice to write a brainfuck to assembly compiler, but it's harder because you have to match brackets
00:57:42 <ais523\unfoog> the hard part is the forward jumps when a [ condition doesn't match
00:58:27 <Sgeo> If I ever get around to writing a Braintrust impl. in Clozure CL like I intend at some point, that serves for allowing brainfuck compilers to be written in brainfuck that compile to machine code
00:58:37 <Sgeo> Without any knowledge of actual machine code
00:58:47 <Sgeo> Although I wonder if using a lisp like that is 'cheating'
00:59:31 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braintrust
01:00:19 <oerjan> one of the more interesting brainfuck derivatives
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01:01:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover couldn't stand for that, naturally
01:01:41 <vanila> would that turn a self interpreter into a compiler?
01:01:58 <vanila> I don't really understand the (!) thing
01:02:44 <Sgeo> ! takes the stored up commands and compiles them. So, if the target is Haskell, and ! gets executed, Haskell code will get output, corresponding to the program in the code block
01:03:16 <Sgeo> The crucial thing is that the language that ! compiles in the code block is the -current- language, not necessarily Braintrust
01:04:27 <vanila> so that puts 99% of the effort onto the implementation?
01:04:42 <Sgeo> Including any knowledge of what the target is
01:04:55 <vanila> but how would you go from a brainfuck compiler in braintrust, to a brainfuck compiler in brainfuck? Or is that not possible
01:05:16 <Sgeo> So, the same Braintrust program can be a Brainfuck derivative 346 to machine code compiler, and a Brainfuck derivative 346 to Haskell compiler
01:06:44 <Sgeo> Vanilla brainfuck doesn't have instructions for 'compile this code'
01:07:38 <vanila> so you need to implement braintrust interpreter in brainfuck - then you can compile the self applicable braintrust compiler to get a brainfuck compiler in brainfuck?
01:07:43 <int-e> once you start stacking implementations, which one of those is the regarded as the "current" one?
01:08:37 <Sgeo> The one used to compile the program that is currently executing
01:08:47 <Sgeo> The Haskell impl stores a stack of each implementation
01:12:32 <vanila> that's really cool though
01:13:02 <Sgeo> So, suppose the compiler stack is BT, L0, L1, L2. A program P is in the code block. ! is basically BT(L0(L1(L2(P))))
01:13:08 <Sgeo> Where BT is the primitive compiler
01:13:14 <Sgeo> vanila: thank you
01:14:53 <elliott> why can't ! pick any old language/
01:14:58 <Sgeo> It's all inspired by Reflections on Trusting Trust
01:15:00 <elliott> rather than being restricted to the implementation language
01:15:23 <Sgeo> elliott: hmm... a second code block for the language to use?
01:15:28 <elliott> what I mean is: if I write a haskell braintrust interpreter, and compile it to C, is it no longer a braintrust interperter?
01:15:35 <elliott> because ! should be outputting C, but it's outputting haskell
01:16:00 <elliott> possibly I don't understand braintrust at all.
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01:17:00 <Sgeo> elliott: if... I understand properly, this is just a definitions issue. I think. But the primitive compiler doesn't need to be written in the target language, I think.
01:17:30 <Sgeo> (If it does, then that's a spec bug)
01:19:56 <Sgeo> What I would think interesting is somehow decoupling ! in such a way that ! requires its input to be primitives, but somehow extra commands that make it simple to do the quineiness needed for something that behaves as this !
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02:22:51 <Jafet> > logBase 2 (10**9 * 26**7)
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02:23:56 <oerjan> that should fit nicely
02:25:54 <vanila> i just invented an esolang
02:26:16 <vanila> its called edwardk-oriented-programming
02:27:45 <oerjan> > let f(m,n)=logBase (10^m * 26^n) in maximumBy f [(m,n)| m<-[0..64],n<-[0..64], f(m,n)<=64]
02:27:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘(b, b1)’ with ‘GHC.Types.Ordering’
02:27:47 <lambdabot> Expected type: (b, b1) -> (b, b1) -> GHC.Types.Ordering
02:27:47 <lambdabot> Actual type: (b, b1) -> (b, b1) -> (b, b1)
02:28:02 <oerjan> > let f(m,n)=logBase (10^m * 26^n) in maximumBy (comparing f) [(m,n)| m<-[0..64],n<-[0..64], f(m,n)<=64]
02:28:03 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Classes.Ord (a0 -> a0))
02:28:04 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘Data.Ord.comparing’
02:28:04 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Real.Integral b1, GHC.Real.Integral b)
02:28:04 <lambdabot> it :: (GHC.Real.Integral b1, GHC.Real.Integral b) => (b, b1)
02:28:39 <oerjan> > let f(m,n)=logBase 2 (10^m * 26^n) in maximumBy (comparing f) [(m,n)| m<-[0..64],n<-[0..64], f(m,n)<=64]
02:29:08 <oerjan> > logBase (10^15*26^3)
02:29:14 <oerjan> > logBase 2 (10^15*26^3)
02:30:22 <oerjan> vanila: http://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/
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02:33:16 <oerjan> shachaf got a haskell overload
02:34:05 <oerjan> vanila: have you seen Taneb's proof that lens functions are turing complete
02:34:33 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure _i_ have, did he finish it
02:36:01 <oerjan> also i am still wondering if that cokmett thing is statistically guaranteed to stop, i couldn't find the source code from which the javascript was generated
02:38:23 <oerjan> hm the google hits give logs for this channel
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02:41:32 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-02-17#092119Taneb
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02:41:59 <oerjan> it seems google _is_ currently crawling the channel logs, both tunes and codu
02:42:06 <oerjan> that didn't use to be the case
02:42:34 * Sgeo always googles the logs
02:44:36 <oerjan> i guess this means i'll have to stop complaining they're no longer in HackEgo
02:44:52 <oerjan> well, or scale it down somewhat.
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02:56:58 <int-e> > [n|a<-[0..4],b<-[0..9],c<-[0..9],n<-[a*100+b*10+c],n==0||n`mod`(a+b+c)`elem`[0,a,a+b]]
02:57:00 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,17,18,20,21,22,24,26,27,30,31,33,35,36,39,4...
02:57:39 <int-e> far too long, of course, but faster than henkma's
02:57:55 <oerjan> hm i thought there would be such a formula
02:58:30 <int-e> I have a fairly neat show- and read-free version, but it's 76 characters long.
02:58:45 <int-e> the speed seems about right though
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03:02:47 <oerjan> btw it's better to use the mod prefix there
03:05:07 <oerjan> fromEnum is so stupidly long :(
03:05:09 <int-e> and it's worthwhile to factor out the [0..9]
03:05:35 <oerjan> but might still be better than that
03:06:36 <int-e> I wouldn't paste a serious contender, not intentionally anyway
03:08:07 <oerjan> you don't have fix, mind you
03:08:10 <int-e> I wonder why fix is not in the Prelude.
03:08:23 <int-e> import Data.Function ...
03:09:27 <oerjan> i haven't yet seen any case where importing was best when it was _possible_ without
03:09:50 <oerjan> although i had a single char difference once
03:10:15 <int-e> > let f a | c <- b = c where b = a in f "arg"
03:10:39 <int-e> oerjan: Data.List.sort, when required, is worth it.
03:30:31 <int-e> meh perhaps I should submit head -c790 /dev/random and see if I get lucky...
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03:32:03 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘Data.List.insert’,
03:32:04 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Data.List’ at /home/lambda/.lambdabot/State/L.hs:91:1-16
03:32:11 <lambdabot> ‘Prelude.sqrt’ (imported from Prelude),
03:32:52 <int-e> > length "{-#OPTION -F -pgmFsh #-}\nhead /dev/random>$2"
03:32:54 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘GHC.List.length’,
03:32:54 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Data.List’ at L.hs:91:1-16
03:32:54 <lambdabot> (and originally defined in ‘base:GHC.List’)
03:33:01 <int-e> > length "{-#OPTION -F -pgmFsh #-}\nhead /dev/random>$2"
03:33:23 <int-e> > length "{-#OPTION -F -pgmFsh#-}\nhead /dev/random>$2"
03:33:28 <elliott> int-e: coming soon to anagol: control the entropy pool
03:33:39 <elliott> how much information can you stuff into $$
03:33:47 <elliott> maybe you can shave off a few bytes with that
03:36:45 <int-e> > length "{-#OPTION -F -pgmFsh#-}\nhead /dev/r*om>$2" -- /dev/ra*m works, too
03:36:58 <int-e> > length "{-#OPTION -F -pgmFsh#-}\nhead /*/r*om>$2" -- /*/ra*m works, too
03:40:03 <elliott> int-e: does OPTION without the S work?
03:41:00 <elliott> int-e: I bet you could inject some state into the system by, like, contacting some daemon or using some setuid program that keeps some kind of cache.
03:41:06 <elliott> and then fish a cheat out of there.
03:53:13 <int-e> neat. you called forbidden system call (socketcall).
03:54:07 <int-e> ok, enough curiosity
03:59:53 <oerjan> oh duh, it's up to 500, not including
04:00:08 <oerjan> not that it makes a difference for lenght
04:02:00 <oerjan> so nicely fast, but 84 chars
04:04:47 <int-e> elliott: you can store some information in the kernel message buffer if you like. that's the only hole I've found so far. there seem to be no writable directories, no network access, and forked processes seem to get cleaned up after each job is done.
04:05:14 <elliott> int-e: sysv ipc was a hole that used to work
04:05:36 <elliott> how can you get arbitrary stuff into the kernel message buffer?
04:05:48 <elliott> http://john.freml.in/codegolf-cheating
04:07:13 <oerjan> although this isn't short i just love my use of scanr main=mapM print$0:[n|n<-[1..499],t:s<-[scanr(+)0[read[c]|c<-show n]],mod(-n)t`elem`s]
04:07:43 <oerjan> it's not a function frequently used
04:08:35 <vanila> what are you implementing
04:08:48 <oerjan> vanila: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Belgian+Numbers
04:11:23 <int-e> oerjan: oh, I have an extra pair of () in my version of that: main=mapM_ print$0:[n|n<-[1..499],(x:r)<-[scanr(+)0[read[c]|c<-show n]],mod(-n)x`elem`r]
04:12:19 <oerjan> also an extra _, i see
04:23:46 <int-e> right. the last thing I did with it was count the number of bytes of the expected output. runhaskell prints the result of mapM, too.
04:26:55 <coppro> problem 8 here is pretty good to golf: https://www.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~cs241/a6/
04:27:08 <coppro> my record is 53 characters of perl, but I think that's with a trailing \n
04:27:33 <int-e> elliott: I was hoping for core dumps, but the best way is probably to use the "socket" limitation and try to connect to a couple of IP addresses; those can then be found in the kernel log.
04:28:27 <coppro> @tell Gregor Have you challenged your students go golf assignment 6 problem 8 yet?
04:36:49 <int-e> elliott: /proc/sys/kernel/msgmax reads 0, so I guess those message queues have been plugged.
04:54:13 <ais523\unfoog> are there any non-hg-based persistence mechanisms in HackEgo?
05:00:34 <zzo38> To make "Helloworldless Hello world" with SQL, is this it? SELECT+X'48656C6C6F2C20576F726C6421'; Is there shorter way?
05:04:22 <ais523\unfoog> is the hellowordlessness requirement case-sensitive?
05:04:33 <ais523\unfoog> if it is, you could do it in INTERCAL pretty easily
05:04:41 <ais523\unfoog> if it isn't, you can't, because you can't write any valid statement identifier
05:04:48 <zzo38> The check is case-sensitive
05:05:15 <zzo38> (Look at examples to see that)
05:05:32 <zzo38> Therefore, "SELECT" should be acceptable. But, commas and spaces are prohibited.
05:13:54 <zzo38> I am sure it is completely impossible in Unlambda, though.
05:20:37 <int-e> elliott: I found a better hole: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Helloworldless+Hello+world/int-e+%28cheat+horribly%29_1414732809&sh
05:21:48 <int-e> unquoted: crontab -l | cut -c 2-
05:22:09 <int-e> but o, r, l and space are not allowed.
05:22:22 <int-e> ais523\unfoog: yes!
05:23:04 <ais523\unfoog> now I'm wondering if shinh.org is busy hello-worlding every minute
05:23:30 <int-e> I made it a comment.
05:24:22 <int-e> ("Hello, world!" has the wrong format for a crontab anyway)
05:24:42 <coppro> can you abuse the crontab to get a zero-length entry?>
05:25:06 <zzo38> Perhaps you can report it, so that they can fix that bug
05:25:17 <int-e> unlikely, mostly because the program files are not writable by the golf user
05:25:27 <zzo38> I doubt you can get a zero-length entry
05:25:46 <ais523\unfoog> it seems like crontab abuse would allow for a universal submission, in a less hilariously-unlikely-to-work way than outputting a random number of random charactres
05:32:55 <int-e> ais523\unfoog: and yes, it's a worse sandbox; it looks like just sudo, perhaps in connection with a chroot.
05:33:18 <int-e> (make that probably)
05:33:25 <ais523\unfoog> I'd been informed that anagolf's sandbox was really incredibly complex
05:33:58 <coppro> just spin up a new VM for each entry
05:35:06 <int-e> ais523\unfoog: the complexity seems to be in the syscall auditing, http://shinhoge.blogspot.jp/2014/10/sandbox-of-my-golf-server.html
05:36:29 <ais523\unfoog> I like the bit where shinh redefined what getpriority and setpriority do to allow communication with the kernel, rather than adding a procfile
05:39:26 <int-e> I was looking for some unused pipe special file that the golf user can write to, but I didn't find any.
05:42:38 <int-e> *counts negations* "I don't think my server is not uncheatable"
05:46:53 <HackEgo> crontab: your UID isn't in the passwd file. \ bailing out.
05:47:31 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
05:47:38 <HackEgo> total 8 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 alternatives \ drwxr-xr-x 5 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 java-6-openjdk
05:48:03 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \
05:48:26 <int-e> `` ls -lad /dev/shm/
05:48:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /dev/shm/: No such file or directory
05:48:42 <int-e> `` mount | grep tmpfs
05:48:43 <HackEgo> tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,relatime)
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06:07:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40732&oldid=40725 * Rdebath * (+829)
06:09:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40733&oldid=40732 * Rdebath * (+65) /* Um Esoteric Language ? */
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06:28:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40734&oldid=40733 * CosmoConsole * (+475)
06:35:34 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/search?q=aurora+borealis&sort=relevance&t=all
06:35:57 <Sgeo> I ... still think a solar eclipse is higher up on my bucket list... but aurora is so much more achievable
06:36:11 <Sgeo> So far my bucket list consists of two items anyway
06:37:12 <ais523\unfoog> I remember a partial solar eclipse visible in the UK
06:39:03 <Sgeo> I stared directly at a partial solar eclipse when I was a kid
06:39:05 <Sgeo> Maybe for one second
06:54:37 <fizzie> There was a total solar eclipse in Finland in 1990, I vaguely remember being up at some unlikely hour watching it at our summer place.
06:56:57 <fizzie> (It was in June, and this was... well, not quite northern Finland but a third of a way up there, so sunrise was at 3:44am; I think the eclipse was around 5am.)
07:01:28 <ais523\unfoog> fizzie: right, I was going to say "solar eclipses only happen in daytime by definition", but forgot how weird daytime can be at extreme latitutdes
07:02:16 <fizzie> I wouldn't go as far as to call it "extreme", it isn't even within the arctic circle.
07:03:01 <fizzie> Sunrise at 3:44am and sunset at 10:27pm, and proper (civil) dusk for a bit less than two hours, apparently.
07:03:04 <Sgeo> I think if I see it once, I might be disinclined to try again
07:03:07 <fizzie> (For the day of that eclipse.)
07:03:19 <Sgeo> It's why I'm not so enthusiastic about lunar eclipses, I think. Saw one as a kid
07:03:31 <Sgeo> Or maybe those aren't as pretty
07:04:09 <fizzie> Next total solar eclipse visible from Finland is apparently from 2126 (and an annular one at 2039).
07:05:20 <fizzie> s/at 2/in 2/ probably too.
07:05:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40735&oldid=40734 * CosmoConsole * (+497)
07:05:28 <fizzie> It's like my preposition engine is totally random.
07:07:56 <oerjan> get better on languages with trusting at your intuition
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07:58:43 <b_jonas> good, fizzie submitted a bash solution
07:58:56 <b_jonas> and it's only 29 shorter than my perl solution, heh
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09:03:26 <Taneb> You know how earlier in the week I had a dream where someone told me to drink more alcohol?
09:03:45 <Taneb> Then the following evening someone messaged me on Facebook to tell me to drink more alcohol?
09:03:48 <Taneb> Last night I discovered something.
09:04:00 <Taneb> I am not very good at drinking alcohol.
09:04:28 <Taneb> (I'm a serious lightweight)
09:06:20 <oerjan> at least you're following your dreams!
09:07:28 <Taneb> Happily light-headed after half a pint, not so happily light-headed after 2
09:08:10 <Taneb> This wasn't very strong beer at all, even
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09:11:54 <jameseb> Taneb: maybe you should start slowly with drinking
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10:59:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40736&oldid=40730 * CosmoConsole * (-12) better Fibonacci sequence
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11:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40737&oldid=40736 * CosmoConsole * (+54) /* Instruction list */ fixed typo and elaborated on L/Sxy
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11:56:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40738&oldid=40186 * 37.130.224.202 * (+20) /* General languages */
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12:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Asterisks]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40739 * 37.130.224.202 * (+369) It's a joke
12:36:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Asterisks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40740&oldid=40739 * 37.130.224.202 * (+10) sppopy
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12:44:41 <ais523\unfoog> http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Befunge-Programmer-jobs.asp
12:45:25 <ais523\unfoog> "All ExpertRating Certified Professionals who appear for a paid test or who purchase a certificate after taking a free test are provided with a high quality paper certificate of accomplishment which is fit for mounting."
12:45:36 <J_Arcane> But, they're ISO9001! That means QUALITY! :D
12:45:49 <ais523\unfoog> OK, now I know that if someone turns up with one of their certificates, they almost certainly are trying to scam me into thinking they know how to program
12:47:21 <ais523\unfoog> oh wow, they don't actually have a test about Befunge programming specifically, despite claiming they do
12:47:29 <ais523\unfoog> just a " Find out how well suited you are for Befunge Programmer jobs."
12:49:55 <ais523\unfoog> <http://cgibin.erols.com/ziring/cgi-bin/cep/cep.pl?_key=INTERCAL> Intercal has no comment syntax, but it is possible to get the effect of a comment by beginning a line with Please Note by taking advantage of the "Not" in "Note".
12:50:30 <ais523\unfoog> at this rate I'm going to have to write an academic paper about esolangs just so I can cite it in Wikipedia
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13:01:54 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, brilliant, they include an image of an example diploma with three signatures and the text "Visual Basic 6.0 certification"
13:03:50 <b_jonas> ais523: they also have http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Intercal-Programmer-jobs.asp but apparently I can't just replace "Intercal" in the url with a random name to get a valid page generated on the fly... maybe they need a certified web programmer to implement that
13:04:24 <fizzie> "Since there are a lot of Befunge Programmer job seekers, extra credentials count."
13:04:59 <b_jonas> they don't sem to have a page for Perl or PERL or PHP or Python tohugh
13:05:34 <fizzie> Well, y'see, the ENTERPRISE no longer uses Perl, it's all been replaced with Befunge and INTERCAL.
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13:05:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, with ruby: http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Ruby-Programmer-jobs.asp
13:10:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: look at the topicsof the course in http://www.expertrating.com/certifications/InstructorLed/Database-Management-Programming/C-Plus-Plus-Programming-Introduction-to/C-Plus-Plus-Programming-Introduction-to.asp
13:14:46 <Taneb> I keep thinking about how to formally verify brainfuck, then realising I do not know very much about formal verification
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13:33:36 <fizzie> "Using Pointers to Watch the Addresses of Your Variables"
13:36:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: yep, they provide such lessons
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13:45:23 <Taneb> How do IRC logging bot store the logs?
13:48:26 <fizzie> That would depend on the bot in question, but raw protocol-level logs (with just timestamps and maybe other metadata added) are not a bad idea, since other formats can be lossy.
13:49:13 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2014-10-31-raw.txt is I think the actual "physical" format glogbot uses.
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15:32:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40741&oldid=40562 * 93.221.252.196 * (+1473) /* Added python 3.x interpreter*/
15:33:41 <mroman> fungot: How long have you been here?
15:33:41 <fungot> mroman: ' what'd i be if i broke a deal?' said
15:33:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:42:09 <mroman> fungot: Help! I lost my keys.
15:42:10 <fungot> mroman: they were discussing strategy when rincewind arrived. the consensus seemed to be more alert to the ways of regicide and coup, no matter what your skills, there was the sound of her breathing at all.
15:46:23 <mroman> fungot: How's that gonna help my find my RSA Bluetooth keys?
15:46:23 <fungot> mroman: " um. he hasn't got up here, there were plenty of others below it, yellow flames sprang up.
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16:14:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:14:37 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
16:17:32 <int-e> fungot bread, or taxes?
16:17:32 <fungot> int-e: a sudden gloom fnord the professor's jolly face. " but he does go right under," the cat said, waving the right paw ' round, if you don't hold your tongues, i'll pick you!'
16:18:04 <int-e> fungot: try that again
16:18:04 <fungot> int-e: " you are quite right," he replied, " only one doesn't like changing so often, moving so fnord about, and muttering like the fnord of snarks should be tried!") was the universal cry.
16:18:23 <int-e> fungot: one more time please
16:18:24 <fungot> int-e: i saw we should have no more gardening if i let this sort of thing. he's been fnord fnord, were moving slowly upwards, in solemn procession: while a mild little brook, that had resolved to bring conviction to a ghost, seeing but fnord.
16:22:52 <mroman> is there a javascript bot here?
16:24:11 <fizzie> Somebody stuck a Rhino in HackEgo, but it seems to have bitrotted.
16:24:14 <HackEgo> Error occurred during initialization of VM \ java/lang/NoClassDefFoundError: java/lang/Object
16:24:23 <HackEgo> Error occurred during initialization of VM \ java/lang/NoClassDefFoundError: java/lang/Object
16:24:33 <fizzie> It's not a javascript-level error.
16:25:03 <mroman> if java.lang.Object can't be found...
16:26:37 <fizzie> `run java -classpath /usr/share/java/js.jar:/usr/share/java/jline.jar org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main -e '42;'
16:26:53 <fizzie> I don't know how to output in Rhino -- there's no "console" -- but that seems to work.
16:27:06 <fizzie> I think the bootclasspath hack in bin/js just has broken.
16:27:54 <fizzie> `run java -classpath /usr/share/java/js.jar:/usr/share/java/jline.jar org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main -e 'print(1+1);'
16:28:06 <mroman> `run java -classpath /usr/share/java/js.jar:/usr/share/java/jline.jar org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main -e 'print(42);'
16:28:14 <mroman> ah. you already found out print
16:28:32 <mroman> `run java -classpath /usr/share/java/js.jar:/usr/share/java/jline.jar org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main -e 'undefined = 1; print(undefined);'
16:28:37 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e '22s/$JAVA_OPTS //' bin/js
16:28:48 <fizzie> `js var x = 1 + 2; print(x);
16:29:11 <mroman> `js print(undefined = 1);
16:29:29 <mroman> `js print((undefined = 1) == undefined);
16:29:47 <mroman> `js print((x = 1) == x);
16:30:00 <mroman> `js print((NaN = 1) == NaN);
16:30:09 <fizzie> It's a read-only property or something?
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16:30:23 <mroman> you can assign stuff to it legally at least
16:30:32 <vanila> Could you recommend a turing complete subset of GHCs typesystem?
16:33:17 <mroman> `js var f={};print(f.constructor);
16:33:19 <HackEgo> function Object() { [native code for Object.Object, arity=1] }
16:33:52 <mroman> `js var f={};a='foo';f[a]+=1;print(f[a]);
16:35:15 <mroman> `js var f={};f[NaN]=NaN;print(f);
16:35:24 <mroman> `js var f={};f[NaN]=NaN;print(f[NaN]);
16:35:52 <mroman> `js var f={};f[(NaN=1)]=NaN;print(f[NaN]);
16:36:24 <mroman> javascript is such an ugly language (:
16:41:47 <vanila> I wanted to compile prolog to haskell typclasses, but it doesnt do backtracking
16:48:27 <HackEgo> 116) <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on \ 164) <Gregor> "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is a vital part of the web ecosystem. However, bear in min
16:48:50 <HackEgo> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 71) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 306) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a gira
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16:59:03 <HackEgo> 768) <mroman> You can't quote me. \ 1139) <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom <Bike> ass is an urban legend \ 1218) <mroman_> Rule of thumb is that if I can understand it you're not using enough fancy stuff \ 1221) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
16:59:37 <mroman> I publicly deny ever having said 1221 of course.
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17:45:04 <FireFly> `js print(Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(this, 'NaN').writable
17:45:07 <HackEgo> js: "<command>", line 1: missing ) after argument list \ js: print(Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(this, 'NaN').writable \ js: ..........................................................^
17:45:07 <FireFly> `js print(Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(this, 'NaN').writable)
17:45:35 <FireFly> `js "use strict"; NaN = 1; print("test")
17:46:04 <FireFly> Oh, it might be the implementation being older than ES5
17:46:45 <FireFly> `js --version 2>&1 | grep Vers
17:46:48 <HackEgo> js: "<command>", line 1: missing ; before statement \ js: --version 2>&1 | grep Vers \ js: ...........^
17:46:49 <FireFly> `` js --version 2>&1 | grep Vers
17:47:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/js: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
17:47:36 <FireFly> That would explain things, I was thinking SpiderMonkey first
17:47:55 <fizzie> Probably also not very new.
17:51:01 <Melvar> Wait, that second one wasn’t right at all …
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17:56:31 <^v> keep forgetting this existsx
17:58:12 <int-e> `js print ([1,2]+{})[1]
17:58:15 <HackEgo> 1,2[object Object] \ js: uncaught JavaScript runtime exception: TypeError: Cannot read property "1.0" from undefined
17:58:24 <int-e> `js print ([1,2]+{})["1"]
17:58:27 <HackEgo> 1,2[object Object] \ js: uncaught JavaScript runtime exception: TypeError: Cannot read property "1" from undefined
18:04:58 <fizzie> `js print(([1,2]+{})[1]) // possibly what you were looking for?
18:07:18 <int-e> So that's what's going on, everything is interpolated into a string. Yuck.
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18:59:55 <fizzie> I just wrote a perl oneliner that *really* should've been a script, but I had started it as perl -e and it would have felt like a quitter move to stop.
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19:28:42 <FireFly> Melvar: if you expected 0 for {} + [] , that's because of ASI and REPLs processing lines as statements rather than expressions
19:29:05 <FireFly> when it's wrapped in a print function call, it can't be a statement
19:29:16 <Melvar> FireFly: Right, I noticed.
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