00:00:54 <int-e> 11786 bytes fungot.dat file, sha1sum 836cb8a6797db5578498bfdb829cc321b76d0bea fungot.dat
00:00:54 <fizzie> It gives me a "download" option, at least.
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00:01:44 <fizzie> If 7 hex digits is good enough for git, probably 5 is good enough for this.
00:02:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's the most recent version or not.
00:02:26 -!- fnordbot has joined.
00:03:13 <fnordbot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2
00:03:20 <fizzie> That seems very short.
00:03:27 <fizzie> It must've been an old version. But at least it worked.
00:03:44 <int-e> ^rot13 hello jbeyq
00:03:57 <fizzie> I got it from ˜/src/fungot/data/fungot.dat on the laptop, because it was easier to boot than the actual fungot server and/or the desktop.
00:04:09 <fizzie> (Come on, even the ˜ is some freaky thing.)
00:04:47 <int-e> I guess it's a small device
00:05:03 <fizzie> You could use ˜ if you have a strict quota on your home directory.
00:05:23 <fizzie> This is one of these "phablets", so it's not even that small.
00:07:34 -!- skj3gg has joined.
00:08:01 <int-e> fizzie: yes, 7 hex digits is enough since no malice was involved here. but it was easier to copy the whole output :)
00:09:30 <fizzie> What is weird is that the fungot.dat I provided also has (some) empty lines in the first 10.
00:09:42 <fizzie> According to my working hypothesis about empty lines, that shouldn't have worked.
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00:10:19 <int-e> I'm running with cfunge-0.3.3
00:10:38 <fizzie> Ohhh, ok. That makes "sense".
00:11:24 <int-e> (I only compiled the other versions on my home PC, not on that server)
00:11:58 <fizzie> But I'm pretty sure what's on the fungot-server is some source-control checkout that's later than the 0.9 release, and at least with the fungot.dat it has that works.
00:12:07 <fizzie> Although maybe the newer fungot.dat no longer has any empty lines.
00:12:45 <fizzie> I really should have just copied that, since I'm pretty sure I even put that somewhere on the laptop just in case. But a quick 'locate' only found the one.
00:13:05 <fizzie> (Probably the new one was inside a tarball or something.)
00:14:19 <fizzie> Well, good enough for today, I think I'm off to sleep.
00:17:01 <int-e> cheers, good night
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03:32:29 <zzo38> Do you know how to set up a situation in Magic: the Gathering where you can control what cards both players will have in their hand in the subgame? Remember that opponent can mulligan, so you have to take that into consideration, too!
03:42:45 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.
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03:46:52 <oren> It seems that to make anything with multiple monitors work, you need to write some sh scripts that call xrandr
03:47:31 <oren> and work out the transformation matrices yourself.
03:47:51 <oren> luckily, i have taken a course on transformation matrices.
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04:07:15 <oren> xrandr --output VGA1 --transform -0.948611,0,1366,0,-0.948611,800,0,0,1
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04:08:21 <oren> See, this is shy I keep different fonts on different terminals
04:16:13 <oren> crap. xfce's window placer keeps placing windows offscreen
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04:29:12 <oren> seems like I can't take a picture of my computer with my computer
04:44:35 <zzo38> Do you know if there is query URL for the book/chapter/verse of World English Bible?
04:48:15 <oren> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=WEB&search=2%20Timothy%201:7
04:49:05 <oren> But, unfortunately that includes abunch of other stuff in the page
04:51:58 <oren> http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=Mt.+10%3A34&ver=web
04:58:12 <oren> http://holy.be/web/verse/genesis-chapter-30-verse-4/
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04:58:23 <oren> This one doesn't seem to be a search url
05:00:02 <oren> And you can isolate the verse by looking for the div like <div id="single-verse">She gave him Bilhah her servant as wife, and Jacob went in to her.</div>
05:01:03 <zzo38> I notice their FAQ says "May I change or translate the World English Bible?" and their answer begins with "Yes and no. Because the World English Bible is God's Word, you may not do anything to change the meaning of the text. That is God's rule, not mine or any rule of man-made law. ..."
05:01:40 <oren> I dunno if the bible says that anywhere though
05:01:54 <zzo38> But really my opinion is, the Bible is just some small book compared to God's Word; but it is still something, and certainly does not make it worthless!! Nevertheless, if you do change the meaning, please don't call the new version the Bible.
05:02:05 <zzo38> It would be improper to do so.
05:02:36 <zzo38> I don't know what are your opinions of such thing
05:03:36 <oren> I guess the bible is definitely a historical text where the only "proper" version would be the one in hebrew and greek (and some aramaic)
05:04:51 <oren> Just like you can't change herodotus's Histories or Marx's Das Capital and claim it's the same text
05:06:08 <oren> And translations of those books are not really the same
05:07:16 <oren> Texts have names, this one is called "the bible", and to call any other text "the bible" is obviously improper
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05:14:00 <oren> I guess I'm skeptical of any attempt to translate any work from any language into any other language
05:16:38 <oren> Even dumb comedy anime are completely butchered when they are translated. How could a book of mixed poetry, law, history and mythology like the bible hold up?
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05:17:03 <zzo38> Well, they try to be as accurate as possible; you will probably inevitably lose something, although footnotes are often added for this and other reasons.
05:19:07 <zzo38> Of course mistakes are sometimes made; one section says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", but some now believe that a better translation might be "poisoner".
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05:26:55 <oren> I wasn't really thinking of mistakes, more... Languages sort of carry around the culture they come from around with them...
05:28:08 <oren> So you have weird things like people in anime saying "the club president is a nice person, right?" which is sooo stilted it's not even funny
05:28:28 <zzo38> Yes, that too; also the text in the Bible is very old, so that the culture is old too
05:30:09 <oren> So we might not even know enough about the culture to make a correct interpretation.
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05:32:46 <zzo38> That is correct; but you can try to do best you can. Put relevant stuff about the way the old text was originally written in footnotes, stuff about culture, and keep the originals available so that people who understand it and can study it, will do so, and if more studies are made possibly you will figure out something new and fix it a bit better too.
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05:36:42 <oren> Now I'm annoyed that translated manga don't have footnotes
05:37:47 <oren> I mean it would obviously be easier for them to find out the relevant information about modern japan!
05:38:22 <zzo38> I agree that I would like to have some footnotes in there too
05:39:10 <zzo38> Not as many as the Bible, but it would help to sometimes put in a few
05:39:46 <zzo38> Also they should have page numbers; I see many manga without page numbers, even though the page numbers are referenced in the table of contents.
05:39:55 <oren> like "it's totally normal to refer to someone by their title when directly addressing them"
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05:40:52 <oren> page numbers. yes. they need them
05:45:10 <oren> Although some of these "translators" are too lazy to translate the table of centents
05:47:23 <zzo38> Even the Japanese version lacks page numbers even though it is referenced in the table of contents.
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05:48:06 <oren> huh. All the japanese manga I have have them
05:50:41 <zzo38> I have Akagi, by Fukumoto
05:53:10 <oren> hataraku maou by wagahara, kirumi-beibe- by kaduho, nichijou by arawi keiichi, nanoha strikers the comics by uh... nagatani?
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05:54:55 <oren> I don't know how many of those kanji are part of his family name and how many his personal name
05:56:22 <oren> oh, it's hasegawa
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06:01:19 <oren> aqua by amano kozue, nadesiko by asamiya kia
06:01:25 <oren> ok now i'm just bragging
06:02:24 <oren> anyway, all those have page numbers...
06:02:48 <oren> well, not on all pages, but on enough
06:03:32 <oren> but I've seen many translators cut out the page numbers
06:04:01 <oren> (i think it might be a space-saving measure to make smaller archives?)
06:05:34 <zzo38> All I know is that Fukumoto manga doesn't have page numbers
06:05:57 <oren> hm... do you have digital or a real copy?
06:06:12 <oren> all those I listed were paper books
06:07:37 <oren> that's pretty odd not to have page numbers, in a digital release it would make sense, but not on paper
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06:19:45 <oren> For example, Akagi is available on the kindle store.
06:23:26 <oren> holy crap, a lot of manga is available for really cheap on kindle store!
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06:30:13 <oren> which has now motivated me to get out my credit card, and make my second-ever online transaction
06:38:55 <zzo38> I have it on paper
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06:40:44 <oren> ah... beats me then :P
06:54:33 <oren> well you could always just write the numbers in then??
06:59:53 <oren> some people don't like it when I write in my books...
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07:09:09 <oren> but my copy of linux in a nutshell annotated by me and my father has saved my ass several times
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07:57:54 <oren> Zenon Pylyshyn has an awesome name.
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08:06:45 <oren> He's only mentioned once in my KRR textbook, but I wish he was mentioned more than once
08:15:02 <doesthiswork> I just misread a sentence from his presidential address as "American foreign policy against the Unix operating system"
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08:18:39 <oren> i assume it actually said "ISIS"
08:22:18 <oren> oh, apparently it was in 1986...
08:26:42 <Taneb> What do you call those electronic music things with the squares
08:27:22 <oren> Dance Dance Revolution?
08:28:12 <oren> ohh, you mean Launchpad
08:29:09 <oren> I parsed that as (electronic (music things)) first
08:30:29 <Taneb> The ones that look like a 4 by 4 array of squares
08:30:34 <Taneb> And pressing the squares does things
08:31:40 <Taneb> Oooh yes, it is Launchpad
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09:25:41 <oren> somehow I can't accept this book using "formulas"
09:25:57 <oren> It has to be "formulae"
09:27:19 <oerjan> i think you're going to find this a hard policy
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09:31:23 <oerjan> oren: they are both officially allowed, but "formulas" has more than 4 times as many google hits (with the quotes)
09:32:31 <oren> what's next, axises? lemmas? forums?
09:32:59 <oren> instead of axes, lemmata, and fora?
09:33:36 <Jafet> Their defiantly superior.
09:34:31 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure lemmas already won. i think axes is still hanging on.
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09:35:31 <oren> oh god, what if people start referring to ninjas?
09:36:10 <oerjan> NOW YOU'RE JUST BEING SILLY
09:36:21 <oerjan> does japanese even _have_ a plural?
09:36:30 <Jafet> Ninjas, stealthy, inconspicuous spies and assassins
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09:36:42 <oren> exactly it doesnt! one ninja, two ninja
09:37:02 <oren> one tsunami, two tsunami
09:37:07 <Jafet> Red ninja, blue ninja
09:37:10 <oerjan> Jafet: surely you mean hashashins
09:37:51 <oren> What about seraphim and mujahidin?
09:38:08 <oren> Are we going to essify them too?
09:38:28 <oerjan> seraphim is kept because it's cute. mujahedin is kept because people don't think of it as a plural.
09:38:57 <oerjan> although i guess seraphs is used...
09:39:31 <oerjan> White-Rabbit: comes with a free dagger
09:39:52 <oren> and some brownies
09:40:07 <White-Rabbit> Hey now woah there... I prefer to call them tiny swords.
09:40:49 <oren> brownies are a common way to serve hashish
09:41:17 <oerjan> just because hashashins have dark skin you don't get to call them brownies, oren
09:41:42 <oerjan> (did they, even? syrians aren't very dark.)
09:42:48 <oren> uhh... in Canada "brownies" means a sort of choclate cake cut into small pieces which can have fruit or coconut (or in this case, hashish) mixed in
09:43:31 <Taneb> oren, oerjan was making a joke
09:44:25 <oren> oh. I thought this was another place where Canadian is different from English or
09:44:31 <White-Rabbit> Sooooo confused....... *brain leaks out of ear a little*
09:45:04 <oerjan> White-Rabbit: if you have brain leak problems i don't recommend staying in this channel hth
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09:45:51 <oerjan> i've had brownies (no fruit, though) in the local coffee bars.
09:46:09 <oerjan> at least they called them that
09:46:30 <Jafet> The hashishin didn't serve brownies, you lawless anachronist
09:46:48 <oerjan> Jafet: only because they didn't have chocolate hth
09:47:21 <oerjan> i'm sure they had other things to poison
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09:49:01 <oerjan> White-Rabbit: i'm not very up to date (especially in the middle ages) to middle-east sweets and cakes
09:49:02 <HackEgo> White-Rabbit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
09:49:12 <oren> Hackego is slow today
09:49:13 <oerjan> slowest bot in the west
09:50:13 <oerjan> it's often been slower when it's been idle a while, i think the VM needs to get up and running
09:50:42 <oerjan> also with your nick you should get this at once:
09:50:46 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
09:51:40 <oren> I can literally hear my dad's voice in my head reading that...
09:52:09 <oerjan> a sure sign of madness.
09:52:14 <White-Rabbit> Ha, I imagine a voice reminiscent of the Stanley Parable voice.
09:52:17 <Taneb> oren, oerjan is your father
09:52:34 <oerjan> Taneb: i find that thought disturbing
09:52:46 <oren> IT CAN'T BE! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
09:53:10 <oerjan> seek your feelings, you know it to be hogwash
09:53:20 * oren hasn't actaully watched any of the star wars movies
09:53:43 <oerjan> oren: i think 99% of what i know about star wars i got from reading darths & droids
09:53:55 <oerjan> ok maybe a _slight_ overestimate there
09:54:26 <oerjan> however, d&d has just done that scene (twisted _and_ double twisted)
09:56:20 * oerjan actually watched empire strikes back once, the only one he's seen in a proper cinema. although he didn't remember everything.
09:57:25 <Taneb> I saw Revenge of the Sith in the cinema
09:57:39 <Taneb> I was slightly too young for any of the others
09:57:43 <Taneb> Especially the original trilogy
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09:59:50 <White-Rabbit> I'm getting sleepy, good night, day, evening to you all.
09:59:52 <oerjan> it's possible i could have watched some of the original trilogy on original release if they got to the small town i'm from, but i didn't.
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10:00:30 <oerjan> i haven't really gone to the cinema that much overall.
10:00:49 * oerjan vaguely recalls watching ET in cinema
10:03:55 <oerjan> i also recall going to watch woody allen's Zelig because the blurb somehow intrigued me; however i didn't actually see it because the cinematographer begged me not to insist that he put it on for just one person :P
10:05:54 <oren> The last movie i watched in a theatre was Apollo 18
10:07:28 <oerjan> i think the last i watched was Prisoner of Azkaban
10:08:07 <oerjan> accompanying a young cousin
10:08:33 <Taneb> The last time I went to the cinema was... last Wednesday
10:10:01 <FireFly> The last time I went to the cinema was last weekend... though before that it was probably three or so years ago
10:12:19 <Taneb> I went to the cinema the week before, too
10:12:24 <Taneb> I like going to the cinema
10:12:40 <Taneb> It's so rare when a film I want to see comes out but then like 4 happen at once
10:17:40 <HackEgo> [U+02C6 MODIFIER LETTER CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT]
10:22:07 <Taneb> Although I don't know if I can see Big Hero 6
10:27:46 <Taneb> b_jonas, I managed to see Kingsman and Jupiter Ascending
10:27:51 <mroman> Can't cabal tell me what dependencies I need for my own package?
10:28:13 <Taneb> Didn't get to see Predestination, but that saw a really limited release anyway, and I still need to see Big Hero 6
10:29:01 <b_jonas> the last one I saw in a cinema was Gru 2. It's not bad, but I didn't completely like it because it's sort of short. The villain is defeated before he even has a chance to start to rule the world with his minions.
10:31:42 <mroman> i.e. cabal inspect foo.hs and it will print the versions and names of all imported modules
10:31:44 <b_jonas> (apparently there's a third film in the works, prepared for 2017)
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10:53:44 <dulla> Apparently all the females are pretty neat in Big Hero 6
10:54:01 <dulla> From the comments that all the artists I scoot around seem to say
11:19:07 <zzo38> Is this correct? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2
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11:26:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, but it's scary. four black lotuses in your hand, plus a Mindslaver and other heavy duty cards…
11:29:47 <zzo38> You can't actually cast Black Lotus or Mindslaver at these times though
11:30:14 <b_jonas> the opponent has Wishes but nothing relevant in his sideboard? interesting
11:30:31 <b_jonas> nor do you have anything relevant
11:31:20 <b_jonas> so the first step solving the puzzle is to figure out the opponent's plan(s)
11:31:29 <b_jonas> in particular, whether he can win this turn
11:31:48 <b_jonas> oh, he has a Concordant Crossroad
11:31:53 <b_jonas> so he can win by attacking
11:32:19 <b_jonas> but he also has a Copper Tablet
11:32:44 <b_jonas> what's a "Somberworld Sage"?
11:33:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's "Somberworld Sage"?
11:33:24 <zzo38> A 0/1 creature with "{T}: Add three manas of one color into your mana pool; can be used only to cast creature spells."
11:34:00 <zzo38> Yes its name is typoed; thanks
11:34:25 <zzo38> The proper name is "Somberwald Sage"
11:38:12 <b_jonas> ok, so now I have to figure out whether the opponent has some sneaky way to cast the Mirrorweave and win with Biovisionary even if you somehow kill his Emrakul
11:39:31 <b_jonas> you have a Saharazad in your library? this puzzle is getting even more scary
11:41:49 <zzo38> Yes, you do have Shahrazad
11:43:44 <b_jonas> maybe that's what the wishes are for
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11:58:21 <zzo38> You can learn if it is or not.
11:58:31 <zzo38> (Or if they are for anything...?)
12:00:31 <oerjan> is there a card to turn wishes into horses
12:01:04 <b_jonas> sure, a horse in your sideboard
12:01:55 <b_jonas> Nightmare is the bestest one
12:03:01 * oerjan learns of the existence of The Wishing Horse of Oz
12:17:09 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
12:17:20 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
12:20:04 <oren> why did he change his name and then change it back
12:21:21 <oerjan> i generally assume that's because people are making a joke on another channel
12:21:45 <oerjan> although i've got this vague feeling nortti has used lawspeaker before
12:22:04 <oren> wait, nicks carry across channels?
12:22:19 <oerjan> on a single irc network
12:23:02 <olsner> it happens when nortti is creating laws in another channel
12:25:01 <oerjan> oren: in fact, it's possible to be on the network and _not_ on any channel, only speaking privately.
12:25:26 <oerjan> HackEgo got stuck that way for days recently
12:26:47 <nortti> olsner: in this case, I used it to test new auth system of oonbotti2
12:27:37 <oerjan> NOOO you broke my theory
12:28:14 <nortti> and usually I use it when I resolve disputes regarding the legal code of #osdev-offtopic
12:31:49 <oren> on the bright side, I finally got the dual monitor overhead to work
12:32:55 <oren> http://img.ctrlv.in/img/15/03/01/54f3069e5934c.png The upper part is suspended horizontally above my head
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12:38:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: indeed, I've even had two normal connections to freenode just to use a temporary alternate nick on a channel
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12:46:06 <int-e> @tell gamemanj What happened to fnordbot? <-- the bot doesn't reconnect by itself
12:46:06 <fnordbot> int-e:. " ford," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," ford hissed at him, " two to the power of two hundred and thirty-nine thousand li
12:47:11 <int-e> But the main problem I have with the model is that it doesn't know when to stop.
12:48:28 <oerjan> clearly this bot doesn't have fungot's sublime intellect.
12:49:10 <fnordbot> nortti: too? " da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da
12:50:47 <oerjan> i'd say there's clear evidence it's still on the baby stage hth
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12:53:11 <nortti> wait, does it think I'm its father?
12:53:25 <nortti> no fnordbot, I'm not your da
12:53:25 <fnordbot> nortti: an invisible to himself, " to have turned into a bowl, " have you got a towel, it says, " is big. you must come with me?" said ford, " he was a hell of a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched," he said at last, " i don't know," said the vogon guard. " er, that was easy, i got a lift a finger to save you a lot. " so," said ford, " to have turned into a bowl, " have you got a towel, it says, " is big.
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13:16:58 <FireFly> Either it actually stopped this time, or it got lucky with the length cutoff
13:22:37 <int-e> "da da da dum" ... yeah I can see how that would loop
13:24:36 <int-e> Desperately [Ford] grabbed for the only bit of culture he knew offhand - he hummed the first bar of Beethoven's Fifth. "Da da da dum! Doesn't that stir anything in you?"
13:25:55 <Jafet> It did stir something in fnordbot.
13:25:56 <fnordbot> Jafet: would work, a mere nothingth of a second, and then his mind to have good ideas with, it must be said, some success. " so," said ford, " the vogons run the ship, the dentrassis. you want to go to work at," and he turned. " but the programme will take all the little white furry things with the cheese, unexpectedly to have blown up. it then?" he didn't look up. when we were kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the lang
13:27:09 <int-e> I love this bit, "but the programme will take all the little white furry things with the cheese, unexpectedly to have blown up." ... is it the cheese or the mice that blow up?
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13:29:08 <int-e> oerjan: It's good if it's stupid, I want the real fungot to come back eventually.
13:32:50 <oren> oh, the sun has risen
13:36:27 <int-e> oerjan: aren't you located in Japan?
13:36:54 <int-e> oren: Sorry, I meant to ask you.
13:37:02 <int-e> oerjan: I knew that. Tab completion failed me.
13:37:10 <oren> http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/pseudoscience-north-whats-happening-to-the-university-of-toronto/ nah i'm located in this god-forsaken place
13:37:15 <oerjan> that japanese exclave known as toronto
13:37:17 <int-e> possibly I pressed "e" instead of "r".
13:38:02 <int-e> One of the not-Americas on America.
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13:45:26 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+1542 CANADIAN SYLLABICS RE] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
13:45:53 <oerjan> clearly the correct spellin
13:50:06 <int-e> oh addendum to the topic: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/chuchus.png
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14:00:50 <oerjan> ah the monthly reappearance of that awful reddit ad
14:06:06 -!- boily has joined.
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14:14:26 <vanila> I liked it when reddit had a scam advert
14:14:38 <vanila> you know those ones that pretend to be an alert box, and it makes you download a malware .exe
14:14:54 <vanila> then the community complained about it and reddit said they wouldn't let that company buy ads again
14:16:58 <b_jonas> vanila: yeah, I've heared a lot about those fake antivirus stuff – not in the context of reddit in particular
14:18:38 <vanila> it was good how reddit people did something about it, and the site itself did too
14:18:54 <vanila> its rare people would get listened to
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14:28:07 <vanila> http://trevorjim.com/c-and-cplusplus-are-not-context-free/
14:28:37 <vanila> lexing depends on the result of parsing seems hilarious/awful
14:30:05 * int-e wonders about "The grammar is ambiguous"
14:33:55 <int-e> Oh it's just postulated that the grammar should be unambiguous. That's not entirely unreasonable, but not what people generally do in formal language theory when talking about context-free languages.
14:48:18 <olsner> I think only grammars can be ambiguous? so it seems it shouldn't show up when talking about the language
14:48:57 <vanila> i thinkt hey mean if you applied the CFG formalism, there would be an ambiguity in if/else handling - therefore it can't be context free
14:49:03 <myname> "On the road to Isengard our developers will continue to focus on removing old legacy code, usability and user friendliness."
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14:50:12 <int-e> olsner: "However, in practice we care about the actual parse tree determined by the grammar. In that sense, I think that for us to call the syntax context free we require an unambiguous grammar." <-- that's the argument from an earlier blog post
14:54:37 <olsner> I think the standard doesn'
14:55:13 <olsner> t specify that it must parse to a specific tree, but rather the as-if rule applies and you can use whatever grammar you want as long as it works the same way
14:56:20 <olsner> it might very well be impossible to make an unambiguous grammar, or a context-free one, but that's probably not what is being proved there
14:57:00 <vanila> and i think they are showing that
14:57:02 <int-e> It's besides the point anyway. The fact that using an undefined identifier is an error alone makes the languages context-sensitive.
14:57:37 <int-e> It's just that CFGs are a convenient way of over-approximating languages without losing too much precision.
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14:58:06 <vanila> thats a really cool way to look at it
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16:16:22 <mroman> fwiw I'm working on a lispified object notation with validation support
16:21:17 <vanila> what do you mean validation?
16:21:53 <int-e> validation against some sort of schema, I suppose
16:26:28 <FireFly> There's a schema thing for JSON as well, FWIW
16:33:40 <vanila> it's like a tree-regex
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16:51:15 <mroman> http://codepad.org/OQLzwnlF
16:51:24 <mroman> yes, validate against a schema
16:51:56 <vanila> why don't you use an s-expression syntax for the schema
16:53:06 <int-e> I like {} for repetition; it's nice and compact.
16:53:29 <int-e> I don't like the #RAW things
16:53:37 <int-e> vanila: I don't care much about s-expressions
16:53:48 <mroman> yeah #RAW sucks a little bit
16:53:54 <mroman> i think i can get rid of that
16:54:04 <vanila> then use XML or Json, not s-expressions
16:54:18 <int-e> vanila: though they are a natural notation for xml-without-attributes
16:54:38 <int-e> vanila: why does the schema have to use s-exp notation?
16:54:53 <int-e> this would just be the same mistake as xslt made
16:55:12 <int-e> xslt is powerful, but its syntax sucks.
16:55:50 <mroman> http://codepad.org/k8m37DeH
16:56:18 <vanila> it's not self-expressible
16:57:03 <mroman> but I don't care about that really :)
16:58:09 <int-e> I guess you could go the Relax NG route and have several syntaxes.
17:03:30 <int-e> It's a good example, I think. And I've only ever used the compact syntax.
17:03:35 <mroman> I'm not intending on validation validation files.
17:04:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VerboseFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42065&oldid=37899 * 212.56.100.202 * (+0) MANDITORY -> MANDATORY (really glaringly obvious spelling)
17:06:49 <mroman> https://github.engineering.zhaw.ch/munt/RLON
17:11:47 <J_Arcane> I don't recall if Racket has an S-expression form for JSON.
17:11:49 <mroman> (persons is actually a raw match
17:12:01 <mroman> you can match against (#STRING 9)
17:12:04 <mroman> where 9 is a raw value
17:12:37 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(#STRING 9)" "('hi' 9)"
17:12:37 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(#STRING 9)" "('hi' 10)"
17:14:43 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(#STRING {9})" "('hi' 9 9 9)"
17:15:08 <mroman> {9 | 0} which would match against ('hi' 9 9 0 9 0) or something like that
17:15:13 <mroman> I guess that can be implemented
17:15:42 <mroman> not sure about the syntax thugh
17:17:47 <int-e> what about grouping... (foo 1 | 2 a | b) looks incomprehensible
17:18:06 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(#STRING {9 | 0})" "('hi' 9 9 0 0 9)"
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17:42:45 <mroman> (foo "bar" 9) and (foo 9 "bar")?
17:42:51 <int-e> mroman: I want foo with two items, one either 1 or 2, the other either a or b.
17:43:01 <int-e> (arguments, children, whatever)
17:43:02 <mroman> you want that as (foo "bar" 9 | 9 "bar")?
17:43:22 <mroman> you could still write it as (foo "bar" 9) | (foo 9 "bar")
17:43:26 <int-e> no, I'd want that as (foo "bar" 9) | (foo 9 "bar")
17:43:42 <int-e> but I don't want to multiply out cartesian products
17:43:43 <mroman> but 2 a itself is nothing
17:44:05 <int-e> (foo 1 a) | (foo 2 a) | (foo 1 b) | (foo 2 b)
17:45:21 <int-e> it might be handy to have a (#PERMUTE a b c)
17:57:34 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(<<1 | 2> | 3> <2 | 4>)" "(1 4)"
17:57:45 <mroman> gotta use < > for parantheses :D
17:58:48 <int-e> does <1 | 2 | 3> work, too?
17:59:47 <mroman> due to this left recursive thing
17:59:52 <mroman> parsec's not really good at
18:00:21 <int-e> you could try parsing that as <1 | <2 | 3>>
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18:00:58 <int-e> i.e. make it right-recursive, which generally works. there's also a manySepBy (or similar) combinator
18:01:29 <mroman> you shouldn't use OR in a schema anyway :)
18:01:50 <int-e> Sorry, I like ADTs (algebraic...) a lot.
18:02:03 <mroman> how do you do right recursive?
18:02:09 <mroman> parseFoo; char '|'; parseFoo;
18:02:12 <mroman> that won't work with parsec
18:02:26 <mroman> it will run out of memory and crash
18:02:59 <int-e> mroman: parseFoo = parseFooElem >> char '|' >> parseFoo <|> parseFooElem
18:03:47 <int-e> (well, it needs a 'try')
18:05:17 <int-e> (and it should probably be refactored so that the parseFooElem isn't done twice if the first alternative fails. I think I would use ... *looks up the actual name* sepBy1)
18:05:24 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(foo | bar <1 | 2> <7 | 8 | 9>)" "(bar 2 9)"
18:05:53 <mroman> 1 | 2 3 | 4 is the same thing as <1 | 2><3 | 4>
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18:06:25 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "(foo | bar <1 | 2> <7 | 8 | 9>) | (no 0)" "(no 0)"
18:07:08 <mroman> you can't validate trees anyway I think
18:07:19 <int-e> mroman: As I said earlier, (foo 1 | 2 a | b) looks incomprehensible.
18:08:28 <mroman> you can't validate recursive stuff
18:08:58 <mroman> that would require definitons like uhm
18:09:18 <mroman> "node := (node #INTEGER <empty | node> <empty | node>)"
18:09:30 <vanila> it's bad that you're making up some complicated syntax to parse with haskell, just so you can validate (parse) some s-exps...
18:09:40 <int-e> #atree := (leaf #STRING) | (node #atree #STRING #atree)
18:09:43 <mroman> probably $node to not confuse it with the name thing
18:10:03 <mroman> vanila: why's that bad?
18:10:56 <mroman> that shouldn't be too hard to implement
18:16:04 <vanila> data ATree = Leaf String | Node ATree String ATree deriving Read
18:17:44 <int-e> data Wheel = Wheel | Reinvented Wheel
18:23:40 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "main ::= $tree tree ::= (leaf #INTEGER) | (node $tr
18:23:44 <mroman> ee #INTEGER $tree)" "(node (leaf 0) 1 (leaf 2))"
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18:25:34 <int-e> vanila: in any case, it's not sad. making wheels seems to be a good way to learn carpentry :)
18:25:55 <mroman> I always reinvent the wheel
18:25:59 <mroman> that's kinda my personality disorder
18:26:26 <mroman> is there yet a formal language to validate s-expressions?
18:27:06 <mroman> it's designed for S-Expressions
18:27:58 <mroman> I could even implement type parameters
18:30:14 <mroman> I'm planning on using RLON for some dataformats
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18:30:28 <mroman> and this way I can validate and parse them without writing specific parsers for each one
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18:35:14 <mroman> also from a scale on 1 to 10 i'm pretty high right now
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19:15:41 <mroman> everything I do is shit
19:23:35 <int-e> oh no, the dress has made it to xkcd (and I'm late looking at it)
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19:34:13 <int-e> the blue dress that some people think is white
19:34:38 <int-e> we discussed it yesterday? http://swiked.tumblr.com/post/112073818575/guys-please-help-me-is-this-dress-white-and
19:34:50 <int-e> (but you may have missed it)
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19:36:01 <mroman> or maybe blueish and brownish
19:36:09 <mroman> but what's the deal with that dress color?
19:36:28 <int-e> Well, apparently people genuinely disagree about its color.
19:37:08 <mroman> sure on the bottom there are some very clear blue stripes that could classify as white
19:37:11 <mroman> and some are dark as black
19:38:06 <mroman> but saying it's blue and black completely ignores that there's brown/gold in there?
19:38:07 <vanila> its an optical illusion
19:38:12 <int-e> http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/read/there-is-the-dress-and-only-the-dress has some images on top that may explain why
19:38:32 * gamemanj just read the logs, and now knows what the Friday XKCD was about. Thanks, it made no sense before...
19:38:37 <int-e> but I have not managed to coax the picture to look like the first one (where the dress does indeed look very much like a white one)
19:38:41 <b_jonas> it's appread in two webcomics already
19:38:50 <gamemanj> ...People disagree on the definition of colours.
19:38:59 <b_jonas> there's just not enough context on that image, because most of it is the dress
19:39:26 <Vorpal> It is just an optical illusion due to terrible white balancing.
19:39:38 <mroman> so all those three pictures have the same dress in it?
19:40:02 <mroman> if it were an optical solution a simple RGB check would tell you
19:40:13 <Vorpal> mroman, that link I haven't checked out.
19:40:15 <mroman> since optical illusions don't affect RGB values
19:40:35 <Vorpal> Just check the recent xkcd on the matter for example
19:40:47 <int-e> I understand the gold/black one; the material is dark, brownish. But given the bright environment, mistaking the dress for a white one is an unbelievable stretch to me. (the xkcd illustration is good, but the photo doesn't match the left version with the dark background)
19:40:53 <gamemanj> Terrible white balancing does affect RGB values-it's a post-processing filter.
19:42:39 <Vorpal> gamemanj, well, the terrible white balancing moved the apparently dark blue dress (I saw a link to the store that sold the dress somewhere) so it ended up just in the middle and ambiguous
19:42:39 <mroman> Then I don't give a shit about it until I have the actual dress in my hand
19:42:48 <int-e> (the matter is made worse because the dress fabric is very smooth, I bet highly reflective as fabrics go)
19:42:50 <mroman> RGB values don't match
19:42:55 <mroman> they have been tempered with
19:43:26 <Vorpal> mroman, in the photos at the top of the page? Yeah probably to illustrate the point
19:43:42 <Vorpal> Isn't the middle one the original?
19:44:12 <Vorpal> mroman, http://www.wired.com/2015/02/science-one-agrees-color-dress/
19:44:24 <Vorpal> And a billion other hits when just googling for "the dress"
19:45:21 <Vorpal> <int-e> I understand the gold/black one; the material is dark, brownish. But given the bright environment, mistaking the dress for a white one is an unbelievable stretch to me. (the xkcd illustration is good, but the photo doesn't match the left version with the dark background) <-- the middle dress does currently look white/brown to me, rather than blue, which it did when I first saw it. Can't flip it at will either.
19:45:30 <int-e> I've seen this (also crappy) photo of (allegedly) the same dress: http://media.tumblr.com/ec387ec0bb03230268a9e905d74097d9/tumblr_inline_nkebmcshcG1svicb3.jpg
19:46:24 <int-e> it's believable given how overexposed the "original" photo must be.
19:46:47 <Vorpal> Yes, that and terrible white balance
19:46:48 <int-e> Vorpal: not even in contrast with the black/white spotted chair in the background?
19:47:04 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/stichrot/
19:47:07 <Vorpal> http://media.tumblr.com/ec387ec0bb03230268a9e905d74097d9/tumblr_inline_nkebmcshcG1svicb3.jpg is blue
19:47:12 <mroman> I wish I still had this script :(
19:47:16 <int-e> Vorpal: mind, I see a light blue dress.
19:47:38 <int-e> Vorpal: the high reflectivity is rationalization.
19:47:42 <Vorpal> int-e, A white dress in blue light is what I see
19:47:53 <int-e> Vorpal: interesting.
19:47:59 <Vorpal> int-e, And I saw a blue dress in yellow light yesterday
19:48:33 <Vorpal> It is a god damn optical illusion, not more interesting than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG
19:48:39 <Vorpal> Both A and B are the same hue
19:48:46 <Vorpal> As shown in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Same_color_illusion_proof2.png
19:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integral]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42066 * OriginalOldMan * (+2567) Created Integral
19:49:51 <int-e> Vorpal: I know all that. Maybe too well :)
19:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integral]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42067&oldid=42066 * OriginalOldMan * (+41) Added Categories
19:51:31 <mroman> Anybody in here playing chess?
19:51:58 <gamemanj> ..."playing", as in in the current state of playing?
19:52:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42068&oldid=41936 * OriginalOldMan * (+15) Added Integral
19:52:47 <int-e> mroman: I know the rules ;)
19:53:27 <mroman> as in "sometimes plays it"
19:53:38 <mroman> I wanna get into chess a little bit
19:53:45 <mroman> curently I only know the rules
19:55:34 <Vorpal> mroman, I think zzo38 maybe? He did something with chess inspired games a couple of years ago at least
19:56:20 <int-e> Vorpal: The xkcd illustration works for me. But in the photo, the surroundings are always bright. So I haven't managed to see a white dress yet, except on the artificially white-balanced version.
19:56:49 * int-e shuts up (but for how long?)
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19:57:03 <Vorpal> The xkcd one is exaggerated to illustrate the point.
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19:59:06 <int-e> Hah. "The fact that a single image could polarize the entire Internet into two aggressive camps is, let’s face it, just another Thursday."
19:59:52 <vanila> its like that math problem
20:00:08 <vanila> http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/03/130312_SCI_FacebookMathQ.jpg.CROP.article250-medium.jpg
20:00:18 <vanila> (annoying and uninteresting)
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20:06:35 <int-e> Sorry, can't stop. I feel this article is quite informative (save the last sentence): http://www.wired.com/2015/02/science-one-agrees-color-dress/
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20:18:42 <Vorpal> mroman, int-e: This also explains the dress well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw0PlGpaqy4
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20:20:00 <FireFly> 'He even speculated, perhaps jokingly, that the white-gold prejudice favors the idea of seeing the dress under strong daylight. “I bet night owls are more likely to see it as blue-black,” Conway says.'
20:20:05 <Vorpal> FireFly, I linked that one just earlier
20:20:20 <FireFly> It'd be interesting to see what a survey would result in
20:20:28 <FireFly> Vorpal: oh, I guess I wasn't here then
20:22:31 <Vorpal> it is literally the first google hit for "the dress" right now...
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20:25:15 <mroman> does css3 have these thingies that can be resized?
20:25:31 <Vorpal> I'm sure you could use js for that?
20:25:58 <Vorpal> Static HTML with no scripts for the win
20:26:55 <Vorpal> Though that can be hard to find these days
20:27:01 <gamemanj> Why not go for Gopher, while you're on the slope to simplicity-then we're one step closer to finishing the Plan To Make Everyone Use Befunge Computers.
20:27:30 * gamemanj starts to cackle. It is very evil.
20:27:42 <Vorpal> gamemanj, talk to zzo38 for that, he runs a gopher server
20:27:48 <mroman> does resize work on phones?
20:27:53 <mroman> theres the resize css3 property
20:28:28 <Vorpal> I tested on website on my phone and tablet as well
20:28:35 <Vorpal> Though my site is very simple
20:28:45 <gamemanj> Vorpal:(on gopher) Yes, that's the server I found about Gopher on :) However, unfortunately the server says it's written in FreeBASIC...not good enough.
20:29:27 <Vorpal> I saw one in python a while ago
20:29:29 * gamemanj may have gone a little mad with befunge.
20:29:39 <mroman> but it's realy user unfriendly on phones :(
20:30:50 <Vorpal> mroman, what does the attribute do?
20:31:59 <mroman> Your browser will add a control at the bottom-right corner of the element
20:32:09 <Vorpal> And let you resize it? Okay
20:32:11 <mroman> which allows you to resize the element using drag and drop
20:32:17 <mroman> but it sucks on phones
20:32:26 <Vorpal> mroman, does it work on Opera Mini? Hehe
20:32:31 <mroman> it's not precise enough
20:32:34 <mroman> it works in google chrome
20:32:46 <mroman> but it's really hard to resize it correctly with your fingers
20:32:58 <mroman> so I'm using a combination of resize: vertical; overflow-y: scroll;
20:33:55 <Vorpal> I believe the bug reporting system at work allows resizing for example. Probably in JS thoug
20:34:34 <mroman> I think some browsers already had resizable elements before css3
20:34:41 <mroman> but usually just for textarea
20:37:10 <mroman> does css3 have a "expand on click"?
20:37:17 <mroman> that'd be better than scroll+resize actually
20:43:07 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
20:46:24 <mroman> Vorpal: http://mroman.ch/index.html
20:46:46 <mroman> you can match on input:checked + i + p#
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20:50:24 <mroman> although js is quite nice
20:50:34 <mroman> the comment system is javascript
20:50:40 <mroman> and it's quite cool that something like that exists
20:50:53 <mroman> you can just embed a little js snippet and your static site has a commenting system
20:51:51 <Vorpal> No it doesn't, unless you use an external site that has server side scripts
20:52:35 <gamemanj> Also, that "little js snippet" actually is just a loader for a VERY BIG script...
20:52:54 <Vorpal> Here is a fully static site: https://vorpal.se/
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20:56:38 <elliott> this is the dullest website :p
20:58:00 <gamemanj> Mind, ZZO38's website is even duller unless you have a network terminal and the Gopher RFC document...
20:58:17 <gamemanj> (and even then there's not much describing where to go)
20:58:58 <gamemanj> Vorpal at least has a decent index of projects :)
20:59:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> this is the dullest website :p <-- yes it is
21:00:00 <Vorpal> <gamemanj> Vorpal at least has a decent index of projects :) <-- I think I probably made some other stuff that is out there, and of course, a lot of unpublished stuff
21:00:29 <gamemanj> zzo38 has nothing as far as HTTP goes. "Please use the gopher service.",anyone?
21:01:04 <Vorpal> there are http proxies for gopher iirc
21:01:47 <gamemanj> That's what I used at first. Then I read the Gopher RFC, and then started work on a object-oriented language to compile to Befunge. (yes, those are related)
21:02:16 <gamemanj> 98, it needs the SOCK fingerprint.
21:02:29 <Vorpal> For object orientation??
21:02:46 <Vorpal> Which interpreter are you running it on?
21:03:19 <Vorpal> Hm I forget if efunge has SOCK
21:03:35 <Vorpal> Weird, is CCBI1 still around
21:04:02 <gamemanj> ...The archive is called: ccbi-2.1
21:05:04 <Vorpal> Looks like efunge is missing SOCK
21:06:52 <gamemanj> Currently the language is quite esoteric. Want to see a program which eats up all available RAM?
21:07:40 <gamemanj> In the "meant to be interpreted by a interpreter written in befunge" format or the "assembly-like" format?
21:08:06 <Vorpal> And the befunge code too
21:08:31 <gamemanj> ...Currently I'm still working on the language, so I'm using a testing interpreter written in Lua.
21:08:39 <Vorpal> gamemanj, I would like to see a functional language compiled to befunge, with closures and all that
21:09:13 <gamemanj> ...I'm probably not going to have closures, I'm trying to keep it REALLY simple.
21:09:33 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:09:38 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/index.html
21:09:50 <mroman> I has border radius right now
21:10:18 <gamemanj> But there's nothing stopping a interpreter(whichever language you want) being written to run on top of a interpreter(my language) written to run on a interpreter(befunge).
21:10:35 <gamemanj> mroman: Oooh, circular borders!
21:14:45 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:17:39 <gamemanj> Vorpal: Here's the instruction list: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/instructionlist.txt
21:17:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integral]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42069&oldid=42067 * OriginalOldMan * (+6220) Added Fibonacci Number Program
21:19:07 <Vorpal> gamemanj, and you are compiling it to optimised befunge?
21:20:06 <gamemanj> Depends-again, this is all planned. For now, it's just being interpreted by a Lua interpreter while I work on making a decent language to use.
21:20:38 <gamemanj> I'm keeping the instructions simple so that when I'm done, it should be quick to get befunge output (compiled or interpreted)
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21:23:34 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie fungot is missing
21:24:12 <gamemanj> There's fnordbot, which is int-e's "temporary replacement".
21:24:13 <fnordbot> gamemanj: their way. " no you can't possibly, let out a wild whoop in major thirds, threw ford prefect, " it's dark," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. a towel, it says, " is big. you must come with me?" said ford, " you reckon, what's the problem? a sudden silence afterwards." " you just let the machines began to sink downwa
21:24:56 <Taneb> Vorpal, fungot is trapped in a house without internet
21:25:05 <Taneb> For at least two more weeks I think
21:25:50 <gamemanj> We are currently...fungotless. *dark evil thunderclouds magically appear*
21:26:48 <Vorpal> gamemanj, What prefix does it use?
21:27:10 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:27:12 <zemhill_> Vorpal: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
21:27:13 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:27:21 <gamemanj> ^bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<].
21:27:38 <gamemanj> ^bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>.
21:28:55 <gamemanj> ^bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>+++++.<++++++++[->>++++<<]>>.<--------.+++++++++++++.
21:29:41 <gamemanj> ...Okay, so it doesn't respond to ^help, but it responds to bf.
21:30:38 <gamemanj> Time to [strikeout]steal[/strikeout] acquire a hello world program in Underload.
21:30:54 <gamemanj> Ah, this one on Esolang will do nicely.
21:31:32 <fnordbot> HiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHiHi ...too much output!
21:31:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's got an old copy of fungot.dat I gave int-e.
21:33:19 <fizzie> And Taneb's summary was correct. (Or technically the house will get internet in two days, but I won't be here to set it up for two weeks. (Great timing.))
21:34:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, where are you going?
21:34:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mountain View, Google HQ.
21:34:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, i experimented with the fish eye panorama feature in the google camera app yesterday, it wasn't too bad provided you didn't zoom in
21:35:10 <Vorpal> Because then the bad stitching showed up
21:35:29 <gamemanj> For now, at least we have fnordbot-WHAT??? Google HQ? ...really?
21:35:30 <fnordbot> gamemanj: more. " why," a voice said " i seem to be having tremendous difficulty in finding the floor. " what," said trillian, " but those of finely calculated the cumulative effect is this? all his heirs are now long dead, and this is frankie, " a simple one! " in a few seconds," he continued, " you just let the machines began to sink downward and to everyone else out there, the secret. at the moment. a slight hiss built into
21:36:01 <gamemanj> Is it just me or does that bot like to say "the machines began to sink downward"?
21:36:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't tried it yet. Maybe I should, now that I have a camera-equipped Android device.
21:36:43 <Vorpal> Thought it was hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
21:36:46 <gamemanj> No, the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy.
21:37:01 <gamemanj> It's what int-e said, also "trillian", "ford prefect"???
21:37:25 <Vorpal> Then why the fuck did it claim to be irc
21:37:34 <fnordbot> Vorpal: because ford never learned to say his original purpose, which ford and was about to go for a walk to the bridge at that, i can tell. " you can't keep us out!" " what the hell am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you to the bridge at that, i can tell." " the mice were furious." " the day, arthur's mind. look at me: i design coastlines. a red star the size of a planet and they ask me to take you to the b
21:37:53 <Vorpal> Yeah definitely Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
21:38:06 <fnordbot> Selected style: Not really what you'd expect
21:38:24 <gamemanj> Not really what you'd expect is probably a big giveaway that it's a joke.
21:38:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, why doesn't ^help work though
21:38:44 <gamemanj> I have a style for fnordbot to use, but I'm not sure if it'll work.
21:38:44 <fnordbot> gamemanj:...?" " unfortunately, in a desperate that any man who can," a voice said " i seem to be having tremendous difficulty in finding the floor. " what," said trillian, " but those of finely calculated the cumulative effect is this? " the universe to it, you can't like it," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he said at last, " i don't know," said th
21:38:54 <gamemanj> ...Should've gone with "it"...
21:39:17 <gamemanj> ^help is a "defined command" or something...needs fungot's files to use.
21:39:32 <gamemanj> I don't know the exact details.
21:39:46 <gamemanj> (Or anything about how fungot works,really.)
21:40:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, it's not a built-in and the data file was too old.
21:41:29 <fizzie> Should have copied the current one, but had to jump through hoops due to lack of internet.
21:41:42 <gamemanj> Shouldn't it be possible to define it?
21:42:10 <fizzie> ^def help ul (Please define me.)
21:42:19 <fizzie> ^def help ul (Please define me.)S
21:42:46 <gamemanj> ^def help ul (Use ^bf for Brainf***, ^ul for Underload.)S
21:43:00 <fnordbot> Use ^bf for Brainf***, ^ul for Underload.
21:43:10 <fizzie> Yes, but that's owner-only.
21:43:51 <gamemanj> ...And come to think of it, this is int-e's bot, right?
21:44:15 <Vorpal> gamemanj, yes ^def is open, ^save is not
21:44:26 <Vorpal> ~/.znc/moddata/log $ du -sh
21:44:52 <Vorpal> The directory is massive, one log per channel per day
21:45:09 <gamemanj> ...Do you really need that big a log?
21:45:18 <gamemanj> ...When there's already channel logs?
21:45:45 <Vorpal> ^def help ul (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S
21:45:56 <fizzie> Also, to elaborate, I think they call it the Googleplex or something.
21:46:00 <Vorpal> gamemanj, it logs all channels I'm not, not just #esoteric
21:46:11 <Vorpal> gamemanj, And I'm on like 80 channels over 10 networks
21:46:28 <Vorpal> gamemanj, probably closer to a hundred
21:46:49 <Vorpal> Still, need to do something with the logs
21:46:50 <gamemanj> I'm literally on 1 channel with my client set to alert me when fungot goes back online.
21:46:50 <fizzie> Logging all the channels you're *not* is pretty impressive.
21:47:17 <gamemanj> Well, Vorpal, you could always try gzip.
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21:47:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42070&oldid=42063 * Ypnypn * (+2457)
21:47:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm on I meant
21:47:40 <Vorpal> gamemanj, step 1 would be to split it by year or channel
21:47:47 <Vorpal> by year to begin with, that is easier
21:47:54 <Vorpal> Because ls is taking ages in that directory
21:47:55 <gamemanj> ...Don't the channels already have logs for this?
21:48:36 <gamemanj> ...Well, maybe write a script which sorts them+clumps them into 1 file per year.
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21:49:59 <gamemanj> Vorpal: Do these logs run across decades?
21:50:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: I keep only the current year on the VPS, and the rest only locally. With "net/chan/YYYY-mm.log" filenames and a month per file.
21:51:05 <Vorpal> gamemanj, not on this host no, they just run since 2013, since I started using that bouncer back then
21:51:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is on my RPi
21:51:30 <Vorpal> gamemanj, I have older logs in different formats elsewhere, going back to mid 00s
21:51:37 <Vorpal> gamemanj, And before that I wasn't on IRC
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21:52:14 <Sgeo> My phone fell on the street snow and opened
21:52:24 <gamemanj> That generally isn't a good thing.
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21:52:50 <gamemanj> By "opened", what do you mean?
21:53:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need an unbreakable phone. Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ericsson_R310s
21:53:45 <Sgeo> gamemanj: the back and battery came off
21:53:54 <Sgeo> Snow got into the battery compartment and don't know where else
21:54:00 <gamemanj> ...That's not good, wait for it to dry.
21:54:07 <Sgeo> Right now have it opened and put silica gel packets on it
21:54:16 <Sgeo> How long should I wait?
21:54:22 <gamemanj> At least the battery came out *before* the phone got into the snow...
21:54:46 <gamemanj> Probably best to wait as long as you can.
21:54:48 <fizzie> Remember to not eat the silica gel when you're done.
21:54:51 <Sgeo> gamemanj: I'm not totally certain if it did or not
21:55:10 <gamemanj> Well, the phone's battery didn't pop out by itself.
21:55:24 <gamemanj> So it's likely it powered down before any water actually got in.
21:55:39 <gamemanj> (Not accounting for capacitors here, I know.)
21:55:41 <Sgeo> Also glad I didn't get run over
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21:56:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Silica gel, do not eat" was our stock phrase we used whenever the cat was eating something it wasn't supposed to be eating.
21:56:57 <Vorpal> Oh I need to update my znc
21:57:08 <zzo38> Do you mean even if it isn't silica gel?
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21:57:49 <fizzie> zzo38: Yes. In fact, I don't think the cat ever tried to eat silica gel.
21:58:26 <fizzie> Mostly just cardboard and paper stuff.
21:59:18 <fizzie> Sometimes headphone cables.
21:59:37 <b_jonas> Vorpal: how much time do your logs cover?
22:00:06 <b_jonas> maybe I should start logging irc if the logs are that small
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22:00:46 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, that's small
22:00:49 <gamemanj> For 2 years(okay, across 80 channels but whatever)
22:00:57 <fizzie> (I think I need to get to sleep, early flight to CA tomorrow.)
22:01:08 <Vorpal> b_jonas, as I said, on that computer, since 2013
22:01:19 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I work with videos, they've distorted my sense of size, sorry
22:01:38 <Vorpal> Let me ssh to the computer with my older logs
22:01:43 <gamemanj> b_jonas: I understand in the context of videos being big, they're videos.
22:02:10 <gamemanj> fizzie: I wish you well on your mission to do whatever it is you plan to do.
22:02:14 <b_jonas> gamemanj: some irc channels have a lot more traffic than this one
22:02:54 <gamemanj> ...This one has a decent amount of traffic whenever there's actually a chat going on. (When there isn't, then...)
22:03:37 <Vorpal> Or not, they are on an external HDD
22:03:40 <fizzie> gamemanj: Thanks. Though it's just a business trip. Google seems to want all new employees to be dazzled by their "main" campus for a week or two.
22:05:36 <b_jonas> gamemanj: come on, these days 2 GB of logs fits in the RAM and you can search it in a second
22:05:56 <zzo38> I don't have that much RAM though
22:06:15 <Vorpal> Really? My tablet has 2 GB RAM
22:06:37 <zzo38> Although I do have more than enough disk space, and they could be stored in a SQLite database in order to do search, too
22:06:39 <Vorpal> This old laptop has 4 GB RAM
22:06:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Your RPi doesn't.
22:07:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, nor does my router
22:07:21 <fizzie> This phone's got 3, I think.
22:07:37 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:07:42 <fizzie> Didn't they put a gigabyte or something on the new RPi.
22:07:51 <zzo38> Yes, you could use PostgreSQL instead if you prefer, although I don't know how to write extensions for PostgreSQL, nor do I know about if it support such thing like recursive WITH clauses, views with triggers attached, etc
22:08:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nexus 6, the phablet one.
22:08:13 <Vorpal> How is it? As a phone?
22:08:24 <Vorpal> Also doesn't it have raw image support? Tried that yet?
22:08:32 <b_jonas> sure, this machine doesn't have 2G ram either, but I work with machines that have 8Gg or 16G
22:08:44 <fizzie> I kind of like it, but I'm a bit strange. Some people hate the form factor.
22:08:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what happened to your old N900?
22:08:53 <zzo38> I once asked before about name-mangling with DLL files, but as it turns out now, the DLLs I was using don't need name-mangling (the program disables name-mangling for the two functions it exports), and I was able to write it in C, after fixing the provided header file by adding a "#ifndef __cplusplus" area with typedefs in it.
22:09:29 <Vorpal> b_jonas, my desktop has 16 GB, my work laptop as well
22:09:37 <Vorpal> Though my next work laptop will have 32 GB
22:09:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Holding my Finnish SIM card for the transition period. Not sure what to use it for after that.
22:09:44 <Vorpal> (Going to be replaced this summer)
22:10:25 <fizzie> The battery on the N900 is kind of dying.
22:10:50 <b_jonas> I don't need 2G to run an irc client of course
22:10:52 <Vorpal> Oh god, znc 1.6 needs C++11 which means GCC 4.8 not 4.6, which means I can't use distcc as I lack that compiler on my desktop
22:11:02 <Vorpal> So this will take a while
22:11:05 <fizzie> Although last I looked it was still easy to get replacements.
22:11:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use a Sony Xperia Z2 nowdays, works well. No raw image support currently thoug
22:11:54 <Vorpal> I hope they will add that in when it gets Android 5
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22:14:15 <fizzie> I picked a Nexus thing, since it seemed like the natural choice, given the circumstances.
22:14:43 <fizzie> Though it would probably be better to have a bit more device diversity among developers.
22:15:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, surely you have an array for testing the app with at work?
22:15:22 <Vorpal> Or do they expect you to use your private phone for that?
22:15:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:16:34 <fizzie> No, but the developers would be in the best position to fix the bugs if they encountered them in their day-to-day use.
22:17:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
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22:17:35 <fizzie> And this isn't entirely a private phone, in the sense that they paid for it.
22:18:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I love the Nexus 10, sad they have discontinued big tablets in the Nexus series (since the battery in that thing is starting to die)...
22:18:15 <Vorpal> Means I'm going for something else next time
22:18:21 <Vorpal> Probably a Galaxy Tab or Note
22:19:00 <Vorpal> The xperia tablets are just 8"
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22:19:14 <Vorpal> Oh wait, that is the compact edition
22:19:54 <Vorpal> Is there no non-compact?
22:20:25 <zzo38> Did you read my latest session of level20.tex (and the previous one) yet? Do you like this? Is there a typographical error or something else that could be improved?
22:20:48 <fizzie> There's the Nexus 9. Though it's still pretty small.
22:23:20 <Vorpal> Yes, 10-11" is what I want
22:23:36 <fizzie> I have a 5, a 6, a 7v1 and a 7v2 nowadays. Though I only own the 6 and the 7v1, the other two are devel-device loaners.
22:23:40 <Vorpal> Yep, all the search results are Samsung
22:24:09 <Vorpal> On prisjakt.nu at least
22:24:16 <Vorpal> Which tends to be pretty good
22:25:18 <Vorpal> So it is Note, Tab or Tab Pro?
22:25:56 <Vorpal> Oh and a Gigaset device, whatever that is
22:26:05 <fizzie> I have no idea on those. Do they all do the pen thing, or is that just Note?
22:27:49 <Vorpal> Think that is just note
22:27:57 <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of Touchwiz though
22:28:19 <Vorpal> Not getting a Note one, because the pen will probably not work on a non-stock ROM
22:28:46 <Vorpal> Anyway I need to sleep, good night
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22:51:54 <ais523> I know #esoteric has seen it before
22:52:00 <ais523> but I'm going to link http://boundvariable.org/task.shtml again because it's so awesome
22:52:12 <ais523> (it kind-of hides the reason why it's awesome until you actually get some distance into the task, though)
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23:13:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42071&oldid=42070 * Ypnypn * (-24) /* Constants */
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23:33:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42072&oldid=42071 * Ypnypn * (+225) /* Constants */
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23:38:44 <zzo38> I have changed this puzzle http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2
23:39:06 <zzo38> (Opponent now has 2x Sages of the Anima)
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00:04:17 <Lymia> <ais523> but I'm going to link http://boundvariable.org/task.shtml again because it's so awesome
00:04:27 <Lymia> No loop operations except load program...
00:04:51 <ais523> you can load the program you're currently running
00:04:57 <ais523> but the interesting part isn't really the VM
00:05:04 <ais523> but the program that runs on it
00:05:16 <ais523> it's well worth implementing the VM just to run that program
00:05:17 <Lymia> Is it self-modifying?
00:05:22 <Lymia> Might be nice to reverse engineer it.
00:05:35 <ais523> good luck reverse engineering it
00:05:43 <ais523> it may be possible, but would be a bunch of effort
00:05:48 <ais523> (also the source is public but that's cheating)
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00:08:04 <Lymia> Disassembly should be enough :P
00:09:18 <ais523> Lymia: here, have a UM interpreter: http://sprunge.us/BOeA
00:09:21 <ais523> so you can run the codex on it
00:09:39 <ais523> (my first one was written in Perl but it was too slow)
00:10:07 <ais523> (that's an updated version that works on 64-bit processors; a 32-bit version is much simpler because you can store a host machine pointer as a UM integer)
00:11:47 <Lymia> It appears to output another program. :P
00:12:42 <ais523> I mean, run that program
00:12:48 <ais523> for a moment, I forgot it needed decompression
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01:12:19 <Sgeo> Why are so many ads using data: URLs these days?
01:12:26 <Sgeo> Does it bypass ad blockers or something?
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01:13:05 <zzo38> It may bypass some blockers I suppose, although you might be able to tell it to block data: URLs too
01:14:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Poiuyqwert]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42073&oldid=24867 * 50.152.240.108 * (+14) /* Contact */
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01:35:49 <zzo38> Which random number generator are faster in 6502, is it Xorshift, ARCFOUR, or Mersenne?
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03:15:46 <Lymia> @tell ais523 http://pastebin.com/TscXMrUw < Bugging the interpreter worked very well.
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03:43:13 <oren> -b+or-sqrt(b^2-4ac)/2a
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03:52:40 <oren> is there any reason I should have that expression above memorized instead of googling it?
03:54:16 <oren> I am also increasingly skeptical as to whether in the future people will need to do algebra by hand
03:59:04 <oren> so overall, I think i'm becoming even more extreme than the #dontstayinschool guy
04:00:33 <oren> Maybe we need a curriculum that starts with the basics: logic, set theory and Lisp.
04:02:48 <oren> Then after that, numbers and the infinitesimal calculus
04:03:59 <doesthiswork> discrete math, statistics, probability and information is another useful path
04:04:20 <oren> yeah, that would be grades 4-6
04:05:20 <doesthiswork> lisp should probably come before logic and maybe set theory though
04:08:05 <oren> In addition they really should teach a course on "being a grownup" in high school: how to tie a tie, how to go to an interview, how to not be an incompetent weasel...
04:09:37 <oren> maybe that last one can't be taught...
04:10:51 <doesthiswork> no, they make classes like mandatory, which I hate
04:12:41 <oren> Oh yes and: "How to cook your own food"
04:13:25 <oren> several of my colleagues are apparently afraid to turn on a stove
04:13:29 <doesthiswork> we actually had that class in high school, it was called home economics
04:13:41 <oren> yeah they don't have that in Canada
04:14:23 <oren> clearly your education system is a bit better then ours
04:18:20 <oren> "how to research" was taought to me, but it focused on how to write citations in the correct format, rather than how to find accurate information
04:19:20 <doesthiswork> but we were also pointed at the citation machine
04:19:51 <coppro> my approach to "how to cite properly" is "how to use bibtex"
04:24:04 <oren> coppro: my approach is "copypaste the citation link"
04:25:03 <oren> although to be honest it's been years since i've had to cite anythign
04:31:59 <oren> (well, formally, I mean. I cite things all the time, but the citation is usually just a bare url)
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04:36:34 <doesthiswork> oh, I thought you meant export the citation in bibtext format, like the button here http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=367199
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04:39:33 <oerjan> fnordbot: how's your training going
04:39:33 <fnordbot> oerjan: yet," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. " why," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. ford was running after him very fast? " very pretty," he said to a small lump of green and blue. a galactic civilization, leapt to th
04:40:59 <oren> f nord bot = f sud top
04:41:11 <doesthiswork> these days when I misspell something it is usually because my fingers went with a more probably letter sequence
04:44:32 <oerjan> where's the fun in that
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04:46:39 <oren> when did people become persons?
04:47:42 <doesthiswork> people complained about it in the 19th century
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04:50:33 <oren> damn it that is some kind of... object of a type in the same kind as puns
04:53:32 <oren> because they are partially in the context of reading my KRR textbook
04:53:59 <oren> So without that context they have nothing to follow
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04:55:16 <oerjan> maybe it would help if you told us wtf KRR means
04:55:36 <oren> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning
04:57:41 <oren> In other words, it is mostly about computers doing first order logic
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05:30:35 <oren> I was going to put the rules for satisfaction of a formula by an interpretation in my notes, but I decided to just put "the rules for satisfaction are obvious"
05:31:19 <oren> you simply recapitulate the formula's internal logical structure in the external logic
05:33:29 <oren> which is a tedious and pointless process
05:34:34 <zzo38> Well, I still do algebra by hand at least, sometimes
05:34:57 <zzo38> Although if I have a lot of such quadratic formulas to calculate, I will put it into the computer
05:35:16 <oren> I just type them into wolfram alpha
05:35:47 <zzo38> I generally prefer to make such calculations locally though
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05:55:57 <zzo38> How difficult is it to clone a mask image to make a IC out of?
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06:34:53 <Sgeo> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-fJP9_CMAAd_nS.jpg
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08:14:18 <mroman> I should write a fnordbot
08:14:18 <fnordbot> mroman: more a sort of... do it really, cosmically speaking, so stop whatever you're doing?" he just have to be," said vroomfondel in an awed whisper, " think our brains must a man walk down? he grinned a stupid hopeful. walk to the bridge at that, i can tell." " everyone? a sudden silence afterwards." a thought. arthur lolled. a million-gallon vat of custard? " then who is it," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a
08:14:38 <mroman> there ARLEADY IS a fnordbot?
08:14:38 <fnordbot> mroman: them, at the very moment the words i seem to be having tremendous difficulty in finding the floor. " what a dull name," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. " it was a tough assignment," he said to a small lump of green and blue. at the moment. a slight hiss built into a deafening roar the engines. he had no discernible
08:14:55 <oerjan> fnordbot is temporarily filling in for our trapped fungot
08:14:55 <fnordbot> oerjan: bulldozers? all his heirs are now long dead, and this is frankie, " a simple one! you home wreckers!" ford would have to go. " i don't want to go to work at," and he turned. " but who the man with the five heads all the tests, learning to distinguish between him pretending to be an out, " hey listen! i think we've got a deal," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at scho
08:16:00 <mroman> It felt so empty without fungot
08:16:06 <mroman> Like nobody to talk to
08:16:12 <mroman> I mean there are people in here
08:16:20 <mroman> but the most serious talks can only be held with fungot.
08:16:27 <mroman> fnordbot: Isn't that right?
08:16:27 <fnordbot> mroman: matrix, right," shouted ford. " i don't want to go to work at," and he turned. " but you will when i was a kid you just saved a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. " why," a voice said " i seem to be having tremendous difficulty in finding the floor. " what a d
08:16:27 <oerjan> this replacement is a little _too_ verbose.
08:17:58 <mroman> I should write my own IRC-Bot
08:18:02 <mroman> with blackjack and hookers
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08:26:35 <mroman> connect config False True
08:26:42 <mroman> this should enter a listen loop
08:28:51 <mroman> it terminates immediately after sending USER NICK
08:29:31 <mroman> or the irc server terminates the connection for some reason
08:29:54 <zzo38> Do you like to write IRC-Bot in SQL? I wrote a C program that implements IRC-Bot with SQL
08:30:23 <mroman> I'm trying to figure out why simpleirc doesn't seem to be able to properly connect to irc.freenode.net
08:30:25 <zzo38> You can tell it to load the database containing configuration and triggers to tell it what it will cause.
08:30:37 <mroman> It connects, but disconnects after sending USER
08:30:39 <zzo38> What is simpleirc? Maybe then we can learn why it doesn't work.
08:31:22 <zzo38> If I do not understand simpleirc then how can I answer your question please?
08:31:38 <mroman> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/simpleirc-0.3.0/docs/src/Network-SimpleIRC-Core.html#connect
08:34:39 <mroman> I get a disconnect event right after sending NICK followed by USER
08:35:19 <zzo38> Did you try a proxy to record it?
08:36:30 <zzo38> Maybe it doesn't properly wait for the response?
08:36:42 <mroman> I could use my tcp relay program :D
08:39:04 <mroman> >> :hobana.freenode.net NOTICE * :*** No Ident response
08:41:14 <mroman> my ping timeout might be too low :D
08:42:19 <mroman> I thought those were milliseconds
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08:45:17 <oerjan> no killer rabbits in the channel!
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08:55:17 <b_jonas> mroman: that doesn't sound good. do you not get even some message about why it's terminated you?
08:55:18 * oerjan starts preparing the holy hand grenade
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08:55:43 <mroman> b_jonas: simpleirc has a timeout after which it disconnects if it hasn't received a ping from the server
08:55:50 <mroman> i set that timeout to like 0.00003 seconds
08:56:03 <mroman> so if simpelirc doesn't receive any message within 0.00003 seconds it will disconnect :D
08:56:54 <oerjan> bit impatient for a bot
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08:59:51 <mroman> Bs.isSuffixOf is apparanteley not working
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09:09:28 <bunbunbot> Error "(line 1, column 4):\nunexpected \"\\\"\"\nexpecting space or \">\""
09:09:53 <oerjan> psst irc doesn't use html
09:09:56 <mroman> ^\html <b weight=bold>foo</b>
09:09:56 <bunbunbot> Node "b" [("weight","bold")] [Text "foo"]
09:10:14 <mroman> bunbunbot knows all about them HTMlz
09:10:41 <mroman> any feature wishes? :D
09:11:11 <oerjan> what about a death ray
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09:15:18 <b_jonas> does it use [i]bbcode[/i]?
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09:22:55 <oerjan> i think someone here in the channel dislikes that word hth
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09:23:25 <mroman> with that fluffy animal thingy?
09:26:33 <oerjan> i'd say something about someone here's response to that except someone here also dislikes when i put words in their mouth hth
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09:31:26 <oerjan> ^\rc ({x.(xx)}{x.(xx)})
09:31:43 <bunbunbot> oerjan: What color does the dress have?
09:32:24 <oerjan> i'm sure that's going to get shoutouts everywhere
09:32:56 <mroman> ^\rc ({f.{x.(x(fx))}}q)
09:33:04 <mroman> ^\rc ({f.{x.(x(fx))}}qv)
09:33:13 <oerjan> although that was the original. on wired it looked gold and white.
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09:34:24 <mroman> bunbunbot never helps :(
09:35:41 <oerjan> ^\ doesn't really clash with fungot because you cannot really define commands with symbolic chars
09:36:02 <oerjan> (they're all coerced to . or something)
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09:40:12 <bunbunbot> Bun currently knows how to lol, html, annoy, blsq, rc or help.
09:41:09 <bunbunbot> Bun currently knows how to lol, html, annoy, blsq, rc or help.
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09:41:26 <mroman> I probably should add help for topics as well
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09:45:48 <bunbunbot> Bun currently knows how to lol, html, annoy, blsq, rc, help_topic or help. (Use ^\help_topic help_topic)
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09:46:47 <bunbunbot> Bun currently knows how to lol, html, annoy, blsq, rc, help_topic or help. (Use ^\_help _help)
09:46:51 <bunbunbot> Little Bunny doesn't know how to handle that :(
09:47:19 <mroman> probably wrong case order :(
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09:48:03 <bunbunbot> Parses CoolHTML. Example: ^\html <div>div</div>
09:48:14 <mroman> ^\html <div>di<v</div>
09:48:14 <bunbunbot> Error "(line 1, column 9):\nunexpected \"v\"\nexpecting \"/\""
09:49:14 <mroman> ow. ok this could be abused to spam the channel
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09:50:19 <b_jonas> mroman: what? like j-bot which its owner has recently reconfigured to give up to twelve lines of reply rather than up to six lines which is what I've set?
09:50:32 <mroman> don't want newlines actually
09:50:52 <mroman> ^\blsq {1 2 3}{{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}?*BS
09:51:03 <mroman> ^\blsq {1 2 3}{{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}?*
09:51:12 <b_jonas> could it at least add a space?
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09:55:14 <mroman> ^\blsq {"hi" "there" "you"}uN
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10:12:18 <mroman> jesus christ all those libraries on hackage are fucking stupid
10:12:24 <mroman> why would you only expose parseFile
10:12:40 <mroman> people who only expose parseFile SUCK
10:12:46 <mroman> They shouldn't be allowed on hackage
10:12:58 <mroman> gamemanj: a programming language
10:13:05 <mroman> most closely related to APL or J
10:13:30 <mroman> ^\blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}p^?*BS
10:13:42 <mroman> ^\blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}p^?*CL
10:13:49 <mroman> ^\blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}p^?*++
10:13:58 <mroman> ^\blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}p^?*++XXBS
10:14:10 <mroman> ^\blsq {{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}p^?*++XX
10:14:19 <mroman> ^\blsq "~ hi ~"{{1 2 3}{4 5 6}}p^?*++XXf~
10:15:18 <gamemanj> I'm guessing bunbunbot's written in Haskell.
10:16:58 <mroman> ^\blsq {0 1 0}iRp^jCLsp
10:17:30 <bunbunbot> {377 233 144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1}
10:17:35 <bunbunbot> {1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377}
10:17:49 <mroman> ^\blsq 1Jq.+12!CCL3cosp
10:17:54 <mroman> ^\blsq 1Jq.+12!CCL5cosp
10:18:08 <gamemanj> ...What are you trying to parse?
10:18:59 <mroman> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-stacked-vm-0.1.1/docs/Language-SSVM-Parser.html
10:19:43 <mroman> technically only exporting parseSrting is better than just exporting parseFile
10:19:54 <mroman> you can always do readFile f >>= return . parseString
10:20:00 <mroman> but if they only export parseFile
10:20:03 <mroman> you can't parse Strings :(
10:20:49 <gamemanj> There's "parseVM" and "parseSourceFile". I don't know Haskell at all, but is there any way of subclassing IO?
10:21:52 <gamemanj> A "FilePath" is a String anyway, and I think it also takes a IO if I'm reading these docs correctly(probably not)
10:22:53 <mroman> you don't know what IO means in haskell
10:22:57 <gamemanj> ...Again, I don't know Haskell at all.
10:23:15 <mroman> IO (Either ParseError Code) is the return type btw
10:23:24 <mroman> the last one is always the return type
10:23:37 <gamemanj> ...But why would it return an IO?
10:23:46 <mroman> foo :: a -> b -> c is the same as foo :: a -> (b -> c)
10:23:54 <mroman> gamemanj: because Monad
10:24:27 <mroman> @type let foo a = Just a
10:24:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: ‘let foo a = Just a’
10:24:30 <mroman> @type let foo a = Just a in foo
10:24:47 <mroman> @type let foo a = (return a) :: Int in foo
10:24:48 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘m0 a1’
10:24:48 <lambdabot> a :: a1 (bound at <interactive>:1:9)
10:24:52 <mroman> @type let foo a = (return a) :: IO Int in foo
10:25:01 <mroman> foo returns an IO Int know
10:25:24 <mroman> generally all actions doing IO return IO a
10:25:51 <mroman> > let foo a = (return a) :: IO Int in foo a + 9
10:25:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘GHC.Types.Int’
10:25:52 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr’
10:25:58 <mroman> > let foo a = (return a) :: IO Int in foo 1 + 9
10:25:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Types.IO GHC.Types.Int))
10:26:14 <mroman> > let foo a = (return a) :: IO Int in ((foo 1) + 9)
10:26:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Types.IO GHC.Types.Int))
10:26:30 <mroman> that's just so you can't mix non IO stuff with IO stuff ;)
10:26:40 <mroman> you can't add an (IO Int) and an Int together
10:26:52 <mroman> some people say that is to make code "pure"
10:27:01 <mroman> some people say there's no such thing as impure code in Haskell anayway
10:27:08 <mroman> and some people say it's to screw with people
10:27:18 <mroman> gamemanj: learnyouahaskell.org
10:27:40 <gamemanj> Haskell seems to be designed around mathematics, not exactly programs in the sense we use the term.
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10:27:55 <gamemanj> (this from the last time I tried looking at haskell)
10:28:19 <mroman> http://learnyouahaskell.com/a-fistful-of-monads
10:28:29 <mroman> Well.. you can use haskell to write programs as well
10:28:46 <mroman> there's the Perl 6 interpreter which is written in Haskell for example
10:29:09 <mroman> there are webserver's written in Haskell
10:29:18 <mroman> there are more than a few webframeworks in Haskell
10:30:16 <mroman> gamemanj: http://codepad.org/C1Lw7fue
10:30:49 <mroman> so like mysite.com/hello/
10:30:57 <mroman> (which would result in "Hello, world")
10:31:35 <mroman> I use haskell in production where I work actually
10:31:44 <mroman> I'm getting paid for writing Haskell stuff
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10:32:45 <mroman> If nobody specifies the language I have to use I'll use Haskell
10:32:58 <mroman> or if they forget to say it should be in Java I do it in Haskell :)
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10:35:21 <oerjan> <mroman> people who only expose parseFile SUCK <-- which library?
10:35:37 <gamemanj> Hackage package:Language/SSVM, apparently
10:35:46 <mroman> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-stacked-vm-0.1.1/docs/Language-SSVM-Parser.html
10:36:00 <mroman> and that's not the only one I have stumbled upon that doesn't expose a parseString
10:36:05 <mroman> it seems to be a comman "mistake"
10:36:15 <mroman> If I may say it is a "mistake"
10:36:27 <mroman> (because I really think it is a poor API choice to not export parseString but just parseFile)
10:36:42 <gamemanj> It's a mistake alright, unless your parser is forced to use files for some bizzare reason.
10:37:05 <gamemanj> Exposing runParser would probably have done a lot, even though it's messy...
10:37:12 <mroman> that would be a really, really, bizzare reason
10:37:35 <gamemanj> Well, if the parser was written in Befunge, you might just get away with it.
10:37:42 <mroman> parse :: Handle -> foo
10:37:45 <oerjan> mroman: oh i think you want parseVM
10:37:50 <mroman> then you can export that
10:37:56 <oerjan> the FilePath is only to construct error messages
10:38:38 <gamemanj> ...Looking at parseVM's code, that does actually seem to be the case.
10:38:46 <oerjan> the fact that it's type isn't IO _should_ make that obvious >:)
10:39:42 <gamemanj> Though why it couldn't be called "parseSourceString"...
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10:39:58 <mroman> wouldn't surprise me if it were to use unsafePeformIO
10:40:13 <mroman> not having haddock comments is also a huge PITA
10:40:21 <gamemanj> No, it doesn't. Look in Parser.hs:
10:41:14 <gamemanj> Well, it's certainly missing function descriptions.
10:43:42 <mroman> I was too stupid to catch the missing IO :(
10:43:48 <mroman> I was focused on FilePath
10:44:05 <gamemanj> Mind, the naming was...cryptic. Sort of suggested it was parsing something different.
10:45:07 <oerjan> mind you, given they use Parsec they should have exported the actual Parsec parser.
10:45:41 <mroman> at least I'd expect parseString and parseFile
10:45:51 <mroman> and maybe the actual parser, yes
10:45:58 <oerjan> gamemanj: in Parsec, it is idiomatic to name parsers according to what they parse _into_.
10:46:15 <oerjan> so it got a bit mixed there.
10:47:14 <mroman> I tend to use parseThing
10:47:34 <oerjan> hm oh the parser uses internal state, that makes it a bit messy to export i guess
10:49:16 <mroman> ^\blsq "abc(.*)""abcd"=~
10:49:26 <mroman> ^\blsq "abcd""abc(.*)"=~
10:50:28 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+2+3+4""([0-9]+[0-9])"~?
10:50:37 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+2+3+4""([0-9]\+[0-9])"~?
10:52:00 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+2+3+4""([0-9]\+[0-9])"~&
10:53:00 <oerjan> something's wrong with clippy :(
10:53:18 <oerjan> and not just being an insane robot
10:54:08 <gamemanj> ...Wait, you don't mean OFFICE WORD Clippy???
10:54:15 <mroman> gamemanj: Burlesque is also a regex machine
10:54:21 <oerjan> this is clippy http://freefall.purrsia.com/
10:54:45 <oerjan> although i was secretly hoping someone would misunderstand that
10:55:15 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+2+3+4""([0-9])"q|I~a
10:55:16 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (~a) Invalid arguments!
10:55:19 <b_jonas> mroman: that clippy => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Assistant and http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/744.html
10:55:37 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+2+3+4"q|i"([0-9])"~a
10:56:53 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"q|i"([0-9])"~a
10:57:02 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"{|i<-}"([0-9])"~a
10:57:24 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"{}"([0-9])"~a
10:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42074&oldid=40933 * 173.192.81.187 * (+48)
10:57:29 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"{<-}"([0-9])"~a
10:57:43 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"{<-}"([0-9]*)"~a
10:57:57 <mroman> what was regex for one ore more again?
10:58:18 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"{<-}"([0-9]+)"~a
10:58:23 <mroman> ^\blsq "9+21+32+4"{|i<-}"([0-9]+)"~a
10:58:36 <mroman> gamemanj: see how cool blsq is
10:59:22 <oerjan> beret guy over at xkcd just keeps getting weirder
11:00:13 <gamemanj> mroman: I did a esolang search a few minutes ago, didn't see it. Did a google search just now...is it a custom language of your own design by any chance?
11:00:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: is he? I don't think he's weirder than he used to be
11:01:02 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok but he's reality-bending powers seem to be increasing
11:01:21 <gamemanj> He's someone who stapled his shoes to a tree and still kept up.
11:01:37 <gamemanj> While asking why people acted so dignified.
11:01:54 <oerjan> b_jonas: also clippy from freefall hth
11:02:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: he's bending reality way more in 1032 and 1395
11:02:45 <gamemanj> ....Huh, just read today's XKCD. He's played with owning businesses before, but it's a surprise he's got someone to run it with.
11:03:30 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I'm not sure he has
11:03:43 <gamemanj> ...b_jonas, you just gave the comic I was talking about
11:04:01 <gamemanj> (Okay, admittedly it's not a real business, but...)
11:04:13 <b_jonas> gamemanj: what? weren't you talking about 1493
11:04:13 <oerjan> ok business as usual, then
11:04:50 <gamemanj> ...Ah, I misunderstood when you wrote "I'm not sure he has".
11:05:17 <gamemanj> I thought you were talking about having played with owning businesses before...
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11:05:35 <b_jonas> I mean, I'm not sure he got someone to do business with me
11:06:08 <elliott> hey oerjan go rollback https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42074&oldid=40933. thanks
11:06:30 <gamemanj> b_jonas:3rd panel. Who is that person, if not someone working in his "company"?
11:06:41 <elliott> http://www.optimaweb.co.id/public/images/seo_head.jpg is he an elf. i would never entrust my search engine optimisation to an elf
11:07:10 <elliott> http://www.optimaweb.co.id/public/images/seo_step.jpg there is malice in his eyes. this elf man is not dedicated to my website rankings or my well-being
11:07:45 <b_jonas> ponytail girl is working with them
11:07:57 <elliott> http://www.optimaweb.co.id/public/images/seo_rules_7.jpg what would a blog key even do
11:08:08 <elliott> *mashes blog key furiously* WHY isn't it BLOGGING
11:08:32 <oerjan> elliott: clearly is an elf with fake human ears, yeah
11:08:48 <gamemanj> ...Well, nobody uses caps lock anymore, elliott..so they decided to use the space for a new key!
11:09:34 <elliott> that's completely false. i use my capslock constantly and with wild abandon
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11:10:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42075&oldid=42074 * Oerjan * (-48) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/173.192.81.187|173.192.81.187]] ([[User talk:173.192.81.187|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Oerjan|Oerjan]]
11:13:57 <elliott> thanks. i won't stand for this little elf man and his fraudulent search engine practices
11:14:05 * oerjan finally gets the title text of http://xkcd.com/1293/
11:14:53 <oerjan> it's how the word is pronounced when capitalized hth
11:18:34 <gamemanj> ...try entering "companyname.website" into the URL.
11:19:39 <elliott> icann't see any problem with these new gtld
11:20:05 <oerjan> i know .website was registered, so it stands to reason that the rest would be
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11:47:37 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/?comic=36 i'm pretty sure several of those hadn't evolved in the cambrian
11:51:21 <mroman> gamemanj: mroman.ch/burlesque
11:51:25 <mroman> the language is called burlesque
11:51:30 <mroman> blsq is just short for it
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11:54:23 <boily> mrhelloman. sometimes the HackEgo needs some percussive maintenance.
11:56:22 <boily> who maintains HackEgo again? I'm drawing a blank...
11:56:28 <HackEgo> Sir Fungellot cannot be stopped by that sword alone!
11:56:29 <HackEgo> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
11:56:29 <HackEgo> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
11:56:57 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
11:57:41 <oerjan> theoretically Gregor maintains HackEgo
12:03:39 <mroman> using B8.fromString is actually not so good with partially read data :D
12:03:42 <mroman> because that might fail
12:04:12 <mroman> @hoogle Handle -> Int -> IO [Word8]
12:04:14 <lambdabot> Prelude zipWith :: (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
12:04:14 <lambdabot> Data.List zipWith :: (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
12:04:14 <lambdabot> Control.Monad zipWithM :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m c) -> [a] -> [b] -> m [c]
12:04:54 <mroman> So If I want Word8 i need to BS.unpack and use hGet Handle -> Int -> IO ByteString?
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12:17:26 <gamemanj> ...Why on earth would someone write a bot that runs arbitrary commands and *asks* people to try and mess with it?
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12:26:04 <mroman> gamemanj: because it's sandboxed like hell?
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13:55:24 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel.Strategies class NFData a
13:55:57 <mroman> Can't make a derived instance of ‘NFData Exp’
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13:58:02 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (main 9)
13:58:36 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (add 1 2)
13:58:46 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (atom (add 1 2))
13:59:03 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (shell :(rm -rf))
13:59:18 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (putstrln (show 9))
13:59:36 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (add 0 :(1))
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14:01:27 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (add 0 :(1))
14:01:40 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (eval (atom (add $0 1)) 2)
14:03:50 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (utf8_p #(255))
14:04:03 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (str #(65 65))
14:04:16 <mroman> ^\pat main -> :(Hi there)
14:04:57 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
14:05:06 <mroman> Alright. Now it can do some lambda calculus, burlesque and some lisp
14:05:10 <bunbunbot> Bun currently knows how to lol, html, annoy, blsq, rc, help_topic or help. (Use ^\_help _help)
14:05:26 <mroman> forwhatever reason you'd need that
14:06:28 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (str8 #(65 65))
14:06:33 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (str8 #(255))
14:06:39 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (str #(255))
14:09:20 -!- vanila has joined.
14:16:51 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (cons @A :(B))
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14:23:02 <mroman> gamemanj: \o/ Burlesque
14:23:36 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
14:23:36 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
14:23:36 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
14:24:21 <gamemanj> ...Yep, as I thought, I got it the wrong way around.
14:24:50 <mroman> E! is an alias for .*\[e!
14:25:13 <mroman> ^-blsq ""{'1.+}8.*\[e!
14:25:18 <mroman> ^\blsq ""{'1.+}8.*\[e!
14:26:07 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:26:14 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:26:33 <mroman> Strings arent Lists :)
14:27:10 <mroman> ^\blsq ""{'1.+}{L[.<8}w!
14:27:27 <mroman> ^\blsq ""{L[.<8}{'1.+}w!
14:27:50 <gamemanj> ^\blsq '0""{\/ 1 .+ ^^ .+ \/}8E!
14:27:50 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:27:50 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:27:50 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:28:02 <gamemanj> ...That could've gone better :)
14:28:13 <mroman> ^\blsq ""{'1.+}{L[.<2}w!
14:28:19 <mroman> not sure why this doesn't work
14:28:24 <mroman> ^\blsq ""{'1.+}{L[==2}w!
14:28:28 <mroman> ^\blsq "11"{'1.+}{L[==2}w!
14:29:19 <gamemanj> ^\blsq '0""{\/ +. ^^ .+ \/}8E!
14:29:20 <bunbunbot> "111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
14:29:48 <mroman> ^\blsq ""{'1.+}{L[8.<}w!
14:30:30 <mroman> ^\blsq 2 1R@?^{.<100}TW
14:30:37 <mroman> ^\blsq 2 1R@?^{100.<}TW
14:30:44 <mroman> ^\blsq 2 1R@?^{1025.<}TW
14:31:27 <mroman> ^\blsq 2 1R@?^{1025.<}TWvr
14:31:31 <gamemanj> ^\blsq '0Pp""Pp{PP PP \/ +. ^^ .+ \/ Pp Pp}8E!PPPP
14:32:22 <mroman> I assume you copied that snippet from somewhere :D
14:32:52 <gamemanj> I'm just looking at the reference.
14:33:06 <gamemanj> It didn't say what the global state stack was, so I'm guessing it's a second stack.
14:33:09 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 2"pe10XXcy\/CO.+sp
14:33:15 <mroman> ^\blsq "3 3"pe10XXcy\/CO.+sp
14:33:22 <gamemanj> Of course, judging by the error, I'm guessing it's actually something a bit more sinister.
14:33:31 <mroman> the global state stack is a second stack yes
14:33:40 <mroman> but it's a little bit tmore sinister than that, yes
14:34:09 <mroman> ^\blsq "5 3"pe10XXcy\/CO.+sp
14:34:13 <mroman> ^\blsq "3 5"pe10XXcy\/CO.+sp
14:35:03 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 2"psJPp++?d"*|"jCB{'*CNpP-]==}fuQ
14:35:17 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 3"psJPp++?d"*|"jCB{'*CNpP-]==}fuQ
14:35:28 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 3"psJPp++?d"*|"jCB{'*CNpP-]==}Q
14:35:28 <bunbunbot> {"****" "***|" "**|*" "**||" "*|**" "*|*|" "*||*" "*|||" "|***" "|**|" "|*|*" "|*||" "||**" "||*|" "|||*" "||||"}
14:35:32 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 3"psJPp++?d"*|"jCB{'*CNpP-]==}f[
14:35:33 <bunbunbot> {"**||" "*|*|" "*||*" "|**|" "|*|*" "||**"}
14:35:37 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 3"psJPp++?d"*|"jCB{'*CNpP-]==}f[BS
14:35:44 <mroman> ^\blsq "2 4"psJPp++?d"*|"jCB{'*CNpP-]==}f[BS
14:35:45 <bunbunbot> **||| *|*|| *||*| *|||* |**|| |*|*| |*||* ||**| ||*|* |||**
14:36:31 <gamemanj> I'm guessing the state stack is for persistence?
14:36:55 <mroman> for example map/filter
14:37:04 <mroman> ^\blsq {1 2 3 4}{1.+}m[
14:37:10 <mroman> ^\blsq 2Pp{1 2 3 4}{1.+}m[
14:37:14 <mroman> ^\blsq 2Pp{1 2 3 4}{pP.+}m[
14:37:39 <mroman> map/filter run the function on an empty stack
14:37:59 <mroman> ^\blsq {1 2 3 4}{5 6 7}m[
14:38:45 <mroman> ^\blsq %dat=5 {1 2 3 4}|[%dat!y.+Y|]m[
14:38:46 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
14:38:52 <mroman> ^\blsq %dat=5 {1 2 3 4}|[%dat!y.+Y]\m[
14:38:52 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
14:39:00 <mroman> ^\blsq %dat=5 {1 2 3 4}|[%dat!y.+Y]|m[
14:39:00 <bunbunbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments! 5 1 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments! 5 2 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments! 5 3 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments! 5 4}
14:39:10 <mroman> ^\blsq %dat=5 {1 2 3 4}|[%dat?y.+Y]|m[
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14:39:36 <mroman> newer but not released versions of Burlesque have global variables as well
14:39:36 <b_jonas> ah ... um, what does Y do?
14:39:47 <gamemanj> ^\blsq "0"{\/ -] +. ^^ .+ [- \/ .+ \/}8E!
14:39:47 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:39:47 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:39:47 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([-) Invalid arguments!
14:39:55 <b_jonas> oh... right, you mentioned that
14:40:09 <mroman> ^\blsq |[1 2.+y3.*Y]|E!
14:40:09 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
14:40:09 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
14:40:09 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
14:40:11 <mroman> ^\blsq |[1 2.+y3.*Y]|e!
14:40:28 <gamemanj> ^\blsq "0"{\/ ^^ -] +. ^^ .+ [- \/ .+ \/}8E!
14:40:28 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:40:28 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:40:28 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([-) Invalid arguments!
14:40:35 <mroman> ^\blsq %a=1 %b=2 {%a? %b?}
14:40:46 <mroman> ^\blsq %a=1 %b=2 |[%a? %b?]|
14:41:45 <j-bot> b_jonas: _6 _3 0 3 6
14:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42076&oldid=41984 * 86.185.150.240 * (+353) /* Real Quines */
14:42:29 <gamemanj> ^\blsq "0"{\/ ^^ -] +. [- \/ .+ \/}8E!
14:42:30 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (+.) Invalid arguments!
14:42:30 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:42:30 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([-) Invalid arguments!
14:44:21 <vanila> ^\blsq "0"{\/ ^^ -] +. [- \/ .+ \/}8E!
14:44:21 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (+.) Invalid arguments!
14:44:21 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:44:21 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([-) Invalid arguments!
14:44:33 <vanila> ^\blsq ERROR: Burlesque: (+.) Invalid arguments!
14:44:58 <vanila> \blsq ERROR: Unknown command: (me)!
14:45:03 <vanila> ^\blsq ERROR: Unknown command: (me)!
14:45:25 <bunbunbot> vanilla: What color does the dress have?
14:46:11 <vanila> bunbunbot!*@* added to ignore list.
14:46:11 <vanila> int-e!*@* added to ignore list.
14:47:09 <mroman> It would be funnier to ask that question to color blind people
14:47:12 <mroman> Is it green or is it red?
14:48:27 <gamemanj> ^\blsq "0"{\/ ^^ -] +. \/ [- \/ .+ \/}8E!
14:48:27 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (-]) Invalid arguments!
14:48:27 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:48:27 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([-) Invalid arguments!
14:49:25 <gamemanj> ...Why would a bot have a "annoy" command?
14:50:20 <b_jonas> gamemanj: actually, I think that's the plugin name, and there's ten commands that call into that plugin
14:50:56 <mroman> else I'd be useless in this channel
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14:51:47 <b_jonas> I still hope that guy with the BANCStar interpreter will eventually turn up with the half-working interpreter floppy
14:52:05 <mroman> b_jonas: I really doubt that
14:52:14 <gamemanj> ^\blsq "0"{\/ ^^ -] +. \/ [- \/ .+ \/}2.*e!2.*e!2.*e!e!
14:52:15 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
14:52:15 <bunbunbot> ERROR: Burlesque: ([-) Invalid arguments!
14:52:27 <mroman> gamemanj: mroman.ch/burlesque
14:52:32 <b_jonas> mroman: oh come on, we've seen someone ^\kill today already
14:52:32 <mroman> there's also an online interpreter ;)
14:52:43 <bunbunbot> Little Bunny doesn't know how to handle that :(
14:52:43 <b_jonas> oh, you mean you doubt the BANCStar
14:53:56 <mroman> bunbunbot is a burlesque, rc, and lisp bot
14:54:09 <b_jonas> ^\html <script language="javascript"><!-- var f = function(){}; //--></script>Hi <img href="smiley190.png">
14:54:09 <bunbunbot> Error "(line 1, column 18):\nunexpected \"\\\"\""
14:54:47 <mroman> b_jonas: that's not valid CoolHTML
14:54:58 <mroman> ^\html <script language=javascript>huehue</script>
14:54:58 <bunbunbot> Node "script" [("language","javascript")] [Text "huehue"]
14:55:14 <vanila> I wish mroman would leave
14:55:16 <b_jonas> ^\html <script language="javascript">huehue</script>
14:55:16 <bunbunbot> Error "(line 1, column 18):\nunexpected \"\\\"\""
14:55:31 <mroman> I can give you my address and you can shoot me
14:55:46 <mroman> that'd be illegal though
14:55:55 <mroman> not in every country but in most
14:56:20 <mroman> b_jonas: CoolHTML doesn't have "
14:57:12 <mroman> don't ask too many questions about what I do
14:57:27 <mroman> it's a stripped down HTML
14:57:39 <mroman> I should integrate that into my bot too
14:58:39 <mroman> ^\html <mark><foobar></foobar></mark>
14:58:39 <bunbunbot> Error "(line 1, column 16):\nunexpected \"/\""
14:58:48 <mroman> ^\html <mark><foobar>a</foobar></mark>
14:58:48 <bunbunbot> Node "mark" [] [Node "foobar" [] [Text "a"]]
14:58:58 <mroman> also there are no empty elements apparentely :D
14:59:51 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (reverse #(1 2 3))
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15:01:06 <b_jonas> ^\html <img src="smile190.jpg">
15:01:06 <bunbunbot> Error "(line 1, column 10):\nunexpected \"\\\"\""
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15:37:29 <mroman> J_Arcane: like my lisp has?
15:37:47 <J_Arcane> mroman: I haven't seen your full lisp, only the rlon stuff.
15:38:02 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50)))
15:38:02 <bunbunbot> (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50)))
15:38:11 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (e_args (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50))))
15:38:11 <bunbunbot> #((atom (age 19)) (atom (weight 50)))
15:38:18 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (head (e_args (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50)))))
15:38:24 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (e_unatom (head (e_args (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50))))))
15:38:24 <bunbunbot> {ERROR: (e_unatom (atom (age 19)))}
15:38:33 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (e_args (head (e_args (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50))))))
15:38:39 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (e_unatom (e_args (head (e_args (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50)))))))
15:38:51 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (e_unatom (head (e_args (head (e_args (atom (person (age 19) (weight 50))))))))
15:39:11 <mroman> that extracts the value of age out of it again
15:39:25 <mroman> there are just primitives yet to work on such structures so it's rather annoying right now
15:39:37 <mroman> but I was planning on adding more commands to work with such structures
15:40:04 <mroman> (although my lisp doesn't use RLON yet)
15:40:17 <mroman> but the plan was to eventually use it
15:42:24 <mroman> J_Arcane: ^- those structures are just "closures" you can manipulate using built-ins
15:42:55 <mroman> e_args returns the arguments
15:43:08 <mroman> ^\pat -> (e_args (atom (add 5 8)))
15:43:23 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (e_args (atom (add 5 8)))
15:43:32 <Taneb> Ugh, why do I struggle so much with reading other people's code?
15:46:12 <mroman> ^\pat -> map -> (if (head $1) (cons (eval $0 (head $1)) (map $0 (tail $1))) #()) main -> 9
15:46:19 <mroman> ^\pat -> map -> (if (head $1) (cons (eval $0 (head $1)) (map $0 (tail $1))) #())) main -> 9
15:47:18 <mroman> ^\pat -> map -> (if (head $1) (cons (eval $0 (head $1)) (map $0 (tail $1))) #()) main -> 9
15:47:27 <mroman> ^\pat map -> (if (head $1) (cons (eval $0 (head $1)) (map $0 (tail $1))) #()) main -> 9
15:47:33 <mroman> ow. that -> in front was wrong
15:47:58 <mroman> ^\pat map -> (if (head $1) (cons (eval $0 (head $1)) (map $0 (tail $1))) #()) main -> (map (atom (e_unatom $0)) (e_args (atom (add 1 2))))
15:48:00 <gamemanj> mroman: The robot revolution has begun. "Bun bun no happy with u now...time to take over earth" :)
15:48:27 <mroman> I guess bunbunbot should load prelude with some helpful functions :)
15:48:34 <mroman> otherwise map isn't available etc.
15:50:21 <mroman> J_Arcane: Do you have exceptions?
15:50:46 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (try (error) 9)
15:51:34 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (try (show (error)) (show 9))
15:51:54 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (try (show (error 0)) (show 9))
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15:57:41 <mroman> looks like some thing I did breaks exceptions :(
15:58:27 <J_Arcane> mroman: I have error, but no try/catch I'm afraid.
16:01:52 <mroman> catch (eval q) (\(e :: SomeException) -> ..) doesn't work anymore
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16:07:43 <mroman> it only works if catch is outermost
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16:14:02 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (try (show (error 0)) (show 9))
16:14:02 <J_Arcane> Ahh. Was curious about the notation.
16:14:02 <bunbunbot> #(@{ @E @R @R @O @R @: @ @[ @0 @] @})
16:14:26 <mroman> that catch was Haskell code :)
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16:14:58 <J_Arcane> I didn't even realize Haskell had try/catch. XD
16:15:22 <b_jonas> @faq can Haskell try/catch?
16:15:22 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
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16:16:09 <mroman> but I think there are some holes in it.
16:16:14 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (try (show (error 0)) (show 9))
16:16:35 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (add (try (add (error 0) 0) 9) 9)
16:17:02 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (try (add 0) 0)
16:17:45 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (type 0)
16:17:51 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (type (error))
16:18:04 <mroman> fwiw there's no String type
16:18:22 <mroman> @I is the character I (usually 'I' in other languages)
16:18:37 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (putstr (show 9))
16:18:48 <mroman> but I/O is disabled for the bot obviously
16:18:52 <J_Arcane> I like strings = list of char, a la Haskell. I know it's not performant for large-scale use, but for trivialities it's soooo much easier.
16:19:30 <mroman> the problem is if you aren't really well typed
16:19:31 <J_Arcane> To the extent that I wrote functions for Heresy explicitly to allow the handling of strings as lists of single character strings.
16:19:48 <mroman> you have to convert your List of Character to haskell strings to do stuff and then back again
16:19:54 <mroman> and since lists are heterogenous
16:20:10 <J_Arcane> mroman: Yeah. Heresy gets away with it by doing the conversion behind the scenes.
16:20:11 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (unstr #(@A 1))
16:20:23 <mroman> you always have to filter out non-characters
16:20:34 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (str (unstr #(@A 1)))
16:20:35 <J_Arcane> So you have to use head$ and tail$ instead of head and tail, but otherwise it's as easy as pie.
16:20:42 <mroman> gamemanj: it's still in development
16:20:45 <mroman> but it's a lisp dialect
16:21:47 <mroman> ^\pat main -> (str #(65 66 67 :(hi there)))
16:22:04 <mroman> ^\pat main -> :(hi there)
16:22:19 <mroman> although for inputting strings there's syntactic sugar in the form of :()
16:25:45 <mroman> J_Arcane: so you have map$ and things like that as well?
16:25:56 <mroman> for working with strings?
16:26:22 <J_Arcane> Here's the string library: https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/master/lib/string.rkt
16:27:17 <J_Arcane> There's a couple supporting functions as well that live in base, mainly the list$ function that allows for making a list of a string in the first place.
16:27:30 <mroman> gamemanj: mostly to screw around with parallel things
16:27:37 <J_Arcane> It's not as seamless as Haskell of course, but it's as close as I could get.
16:27:47 <mroman> http://codepad.org/zBYmmupA
16:28:23 <mroman> i.e. there's eval_par to spawn threads and chan/var for sync
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16:29:36 <J_Arcane> I even wrote a basic tail-recursive string format function. XD
16:33:58 <J_Arcane> Actually, wait, maybe I don't technically have map$ and filter$, though they're as simple as doing (map f (list$ ... I suppose I should just add them.
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16:58:20 <`^_^v> what should my file systems gimmick be
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17:49:28 <gamemanj> I may be overcomplicating my befunge program development process...
17:51:37 <J_Arcane> `^_^v: strictly parameterized IO blocks?
17:51:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
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18:24:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip/Examples]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42077&oldid=42044 * Ypnypn * (+47) /* Quine */
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18:46:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Martin Büttner * New user account
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19:21:10 * oerjan stalks martin büttner and finds https://github.com/mbuettner/retina
19:21:42 <oerjan> "As an example, I've implemented a 2-Tag System "interpreter" in Retina."
19:22:03 <oerjan> i say this guy belongs here
19:22:48 <gamemanj> So, basically a more powerful substitution language.
19:24:58 <gamemanj> Neat. Also, seeing as he joined Esolang, he may already be coming here...
19:26:15 * oerjan notes that he's in london and wonders if fizzie sent him to the wiki
19:27:25 <oerjan> somewhat unlikely though, his interests are such that he would find us eventually regardless
19:28:42 <oerjan> (mostly going by codegolf.stackexchange here)
19:31:26 <gamemanj> Doing some rather detailed checking, I notice.
19:33:50 <oerjan> my initial thought was "i should google him to see if it's likely to be a real esolanger or a spammer"
19:34:16 <oerjan> then it went downhill to stackexchange
19:34:53 <oerjan> of course in reality i know no spammer can grasp the letter ü
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19:35:56 <oerjan> now that would be an annoying spam deterrent: require at least one accent in account name
19:36:10 <newsham> is that why they started spamhaüs ?
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19:36:44 <oerjan> there's no ü in Haus, newsham
19:41:15 <int-e> ah, I love family reunions (yafgc)
19:42:01 <oerjan> hey no fair making that your first comment when i was going to do it!
19:42:27 <oerjan> at least we know he gets better
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19:43:40 * oerjan checks girl genius again. nope.
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19:44:21 <oerjan> wolkerstorfer is quite a guy
19:44:47 <oerjan> if they're going to send the beast down the elevator i hope humongulus won't get hurt
19:46:13 <oerjan> also i hope this army won't fulfil wolkerstorfer's prediction about krosp
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19:57:31 <FireFly> Hopefully Büttner'll write an article for https://github.com/marbelous-lang/marbelous.py
19:57:34 <oerjan> my sleeping cycle is more like a rollercoaster these days
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20:28:29 <gamemanj> ...Well, we could always discuss why it's never a good idea to take code in a object oriented language, compile it into a lower lever object oriented language, then to a even lower level language, then to befunge...
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20:29:09 <oerjan> it was a rhetorical question
20:30:33 <myname> it's always a good idea to compile to a language that is hard to cimpile
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20:34:54 <gamemanj> ...I guess so, it's just I'm wondering if it's getting a bit big.
20:35:59 <myname> just wondering if it is possible to design a language which is easy to compile but hard to compile to
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20:38:12 <gamemanj> 2014 meets those conditions: very hard to compile a usable program to.
20:38:24 <gamemanj> By which I mean "impossible"...
20:39:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42078&oldid=40461 * 188.61.138.155 * (+53) * deadlinks
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20:40:08 <myname> it has to be a tc language
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20:40:43 <Melvar> myname: I’m guessing it’s hard to make it hard more than once.
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20:43:31 <gamemanj> Explaination: After the language(A) can be compiled to by language(B), and language(B) is easy to compile to...
20:43:35 <b_jonas> My skiing vacation in France starts in four days, yay.
20:43:43 <Melvar> I mean, it’s difficult to make a language hard to compile to where the problem is not solved in the process of making one compiler to it, but the difficulty must be repeated for any new compiler to it.
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20:43:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42079&oldid=40435 * 188.61.138.155 * (-440) * deadlinks
20:44:37 <myname> Melvar: that wouldn't be that bad
20:44:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42080&oldid=42079 * 188.61.138.155 * (-407) /* About */ * deadlinks
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20:46:26 <FireFly> What makes a language hard to compile to?
20:46:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Esoteric File Archive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42081&oldid=40649 * 188.61.138.155 * (-48) * deadlink
20:48:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESOSC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42082&oldid=39502 * 188.61.138.155 * (-114) * remove deadlinks
20:48:38 <FireFly> Ah, the way it was phrased I was thinking there might be such languages already, but that those languages are hard to compile themselves
20:49:38 <myname> easy idea: something with very limited memory capabilities that forces you to do prime number factorization all the time
20:50:05 <FireFly> Game of Life springs to mind as something hard to compile to
20:50:11 <nortti> or something with strange flow control
20:50:13 <gamemanj> I know of a language hard to compile to, but unfortunately it's already "broken".
20:50:53 <myname> gamemanj: what kind of broken?
20:51:16 <gamemanj> As in, there's a sort-of compiler to it, from a language designed to make programming in it easy.
20:51:33 <gamemanj> Which means that going though that, it's easy to write a compiler for all sorts of languages.
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20:53:44 <myname> i like the idea about game of life, but is there a compiler for that?
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20:54:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42083&oldid=42078 * 188.61.138.155 * (-516) - remove deadlinks
20:55:12 <FireFly> I'm not even sure what compilation would do in that case
20:55:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:188.61.138.155]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42084 * Oerjan * (+134) Stop that please
20:56:11 <myname> you'd have to define io for example
20:56:59 <FireFly> You could define it as binary data being sent in/out as gliders (or lack of a glider for 0)
20:57:23 <FireFly> Assuming the program itself only uses finite space of the game field
20:57:58 <FireFly> you'd have to specify where the gliders are sent in/out, though
20:58:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42085&oldid=42083 * 188.61.138.155 * (+59) /* Quines */ (added non cheating quine)
20:58:42 <gamemanj> Or you could have a area "reserved" for communication. A set of 9 "blocks", 8 for data, 1 to cause a actual output.
20:58:55 <myname> you could define it as destroyment of any glider
20:58:59 <FireFly> WireWorld would also be fun as a compiler target, though it's more obvious to see how one would do that
20:59:29 <FireFly> I think destroying gliders is usually part of normal operation
20:59:52 <gamemanj> myname: You'd have to define "destroyment", and G.O.L logic does that all the time.
21:01:01 <myname> but it would word globally
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21:01:44 <FireFly> You could define the positions for I/O in terms of a bounding rectangle around the program
21:02:56 <gamemanj> A bounding rectangle would avoid any accidental I/O triggering when it wasn't asked for.
21:05:04 <gamemanj> But another question is input-how is that done? Spawning in gliders from nowhere?
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21:09:46 <FireFly> That was what I meant, at least
21:09:53 <FireFly> in some well-defined position
21:10:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42086&oldid=30618 * 188.61.138.155 * (-64) /* Implementation */ (has been lost years ago)
21:14:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stlisp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42087&oldid=32997 * 188.61.138.155 * (-239) * deadlink
21:15:21 <zzo38> I wrote a "sort-of assembler" for BytePusher, although I don't know if that counts...
21:15:49 <gamemanj> ...Well, does it allow computation on the actual BytePusher VM?
21:16:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:188.61.138.155]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42088&oldid=42084 * 188.61.138.155 * (+145)
21:16:19 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't really know how to classify that.
21:17:07 <gamemanj> Well, Sprites and Nyan Cat (for example) work by doing a ton of copies for each frame, then setting the next frame pointer.
21:17:11 <zzo38> Something a bit unusual about BytePusher is that the first BytePusher program was released before the first BytePusher VM implementation was released, and these two releases were by two different people.
21:17:41 <gamemanj> ...Perhaps someone had a private VM.
21:17:52 <zzo38> Yes, that's possible, I suppose.
21:19:34 <gamemanj> It's not that hard to write. I wrote a BytePusher VM for GTK+, since I needed debug info.
21:19:56 <gamemanj> (Course, not sure if said VM follows GTK+ best practices, but it works and gives me debug info, so...)
21:20:20 <zzo38> Stuff in BytePusher uses table lookups, it doesn't do addition and stuff by itself.
21:20:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's not unusual. the first program for UM was released before the first UM interpreter was released, because writing an interpreter was part of the task
21:20:38 <zzo38> Here is an example program using my assembler: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.pushem
21:20:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: Perhaps, although they were written by two different people in this case.
21:20:55 <gamemanj> So, your program does do these table lookups at runtime?
21:21:51 <zzo38> gamemanj: Well, look at it to see how it is working. The tables are created at compile-time and lookup is made at runtime.
21:21:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:188.61.138.155]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42089&oldid=42088 * Oerjan * (+157) Yep
21:22:14 <gamemanj> ...I'd call that "computation", or at least in comparison.
21:22:57 <zzo38> In comparison to what?
21:23:23 <gamemanj> See the source to Nyan Cat: There's no table lookups whatsoever in the result.
21:26:48 <b_jonas> Have I mentioned yet that 2015 is apparently major version bump year?
21:27:05 <b_jonas> At least three major software is bumping their version number: gcc, Linux, octave.
21:27:35 <b_jonas> (Gcc because of the severe changes in libstdc++, octave because of the gui becoming stable, I don't know about Linux)
21:28:12 <gamemanj> ...kernel.org has 4.0-rc1 listed.
21:28:15 <b_jonas> And it's only March, so it's still time for other software to plan a bump as well.
21:29:02 <b_jonas> And this is only the software I know of.
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21:29:41 <gamemanj> Lua 5.3 released. Not major version, but 5.1 was released in 2006, 5.2 in 2013, so....
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21:30:23 <b_jonas> oh? I thought they'd released lua 5.3 last year. ok
21:30:36 <gamemanj> myname:The kernel has it's own version number.
21:31:11 <myname> it just was like yesterday that 3 came out
21:35:20 <gamemanj> Wikipedia states it was in 2011 that kernel version 3.0 was released.
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21:37:04 <gamemanj> But version 2 was released in 1996...
21:37:12 <gamemanj> Major version numbers are losing their value.
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21:39:45 <Koen__> gamemanj: I remember firefox took forever to go from 2 to 3
21:39:54 <Koen__> then slightly less to go from 3 to 5
21:40:05 <Koen__> and then three days or so to go from 5 to 15
21:40:19 <gamemanj> ...Not to mention the fact that Firefox is now on, what, version INT_MAX?
21:40:51 <Koen__> well i'm using 36.0 right now, so unless I've missed an update...
21:41:01 <Koen__> also is it a coincidence that the number ends in .0?
21:41:20 <Koen__> and it has the same bugs as it's had for over 20 versions
21:45:46 <oren> and still requires resource limiting and pkillnining to prevent it hanging my computer
21:48:39 <int-e> A new major version every 6 weeks, crazy.
21:49:24 <int-e> (and indeed "major" has lost its meaning here)
21:49:29 <ais523> I think they just came to the "we're never going to bump the major number ever" conclusion
21:49:35 <ais523> this happens in many software projects
21:49:46 <ais523> I know that with C-INTERCAL, the major number had been permanently stuck at 0 foreer
21:50:04 <ais523> so I swapped the meaning of the major and minor version numbers in the interests of nonconformity
21:50:15 <ais523> (e.g. it goes 0.28, 1.28, 0.29…)
21:50:27 <pikhq> Classic C-INTERCAL.
21:50:52 <pikhq> Hey, they already have to deal with the .pax files.
21:50:56 <oren> Version numbers should be integers.
21:51:04 <ais523> yep, Debian screwed up and accidentally violated their own version number policy in a permanently irreversible way
21:51:43 <ais523> (i.e. in order to be able to conform with the policy in future, you'd either need a change to dpkg, or else to retroactively change every single computer with C-INTERCAL installed via dpkg)
21:51:56 <ais523> pikhq: but pax is a standard format
21:52:02 <ais523> also it's forwards-compatible with tar
21:52:12 <pikhq> Well yes. But who *knows* that? :)
21:52:12 <ais523> (the latter makes it pretty easy to use in practice)
21:52:33 <ais523> apparently Apple, they've been known to distribute paxfiles on occasion
21:52:42 <pikhq> I'm also of the opinion that tar and cpio should be wrappers for pax.
21:53:44 <ais523> $ file ick-0.-2.0.29.pax
21:53:45 <ais523> ick-0.-2.0.29.pax: POSIX tar archive
21:53:55 <ais523> you mean pax(1), presumably? I take it it handles CPIO too?
21:53:57 <int-e> next you're going to suggest that zip, rar, arj, lha, etc. should be abandoned...
21:53:59 <ais523> I generate paxfiles using GNU tar
21:54:05 <pikhq> Yes, pax(1) does handle CPIO.
21:54:10 <ais523> which has an option to generate pax instead
21:54:24 <int-e> (ordered in perceived popularity. or rar-ity)
21:54:31 <oren> Well, specifically, the version numbers used in software should be sequential positive integers. the ones used in marketig could be anything
21:54:33 <pikhq> It also handles ustar instead of pax, too.
21:54:49 <ais523> ustar's basically an inferior version of pax, isn't it?
21:55:30 <pikhq> ustar is an extensible tar format, pax is ustar with certain extensions defined.
21:55:34 <int-e> wait, why do I get a lot of pony pictures when googling "rarity"?
21:55:48 <ais523> int-e: it's the name of one of the my little pony main cast
21:55:54 <oren> rarity is the name of a character from MLP
21:56:09 <int-e> I didn't want to know that! Google must hate me ;-)
21:56:54 <int-e> (Or perhaps I should stop using it for spellchecking.)
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21:57:00 <ais523> oren: not just "a character", one of the main characters
21:57:07 * ais523 suspects fan might be malfunctioning
21:57:11 * ais523 runs an infinite loop to check
21:57:14 <ais523> nope, it seems to be fine
21:57:30 <oren> lol, that a good way to check?
21:57:35 <int-e> For the record, I'm slightly bemused but not genuinely upset.
21:57:45 <Koen__> on some computers it's pretty effective yes
21:57:55 <ais523> you need to combine it with a temperature sensor though
21:58:00 <ais523> in case the fan /isn't/ working
21:58:06 <Koen__> ais523: are there named non-main characters?
21:58:42 <oren> I don't watch it but I listen to a lot of music based on it
21:58:45 <ais523> (it's hard to avoid this sort of knowledge, sadly, if you've been online in the past few years)
21:58:59 <Koen__> I mean with names other than "the dragon" or "the chimera" or whatnot
21:59:36 <ais523> hmm, looks like this laptop has two temperature sensors
21:59:51 <ais523> one is currently measuring 49 degrees C, the other measuring 51 degrees C
21:59:58 <ais523> well within the safe range for a CPU temperature sensor
22:00:30 <Koen__> (please don't use sarcasm right now cause I'm actually learning from what you say)
22:01:53 <ais523> one of my previous laptops had severe fan trouble
22:01:53 <ais523> I think the fan was meant to turn on at 60? not sure, might have been 50
22:02:10 <zzo38> Are any BytePusher programs hand-coded? I know there is at least one hand-coded Z-machine program (ziptrap_002 is hand-coded); are there others?
22:02:59 <oren> My old computer used to run at about 130 degrees
22:03:48 <int-e> Koen__: Most of the time, sarcasm is easy to detect even on IRC.
22:04:10 <Koen__> I try to read youtube comments on occasions
22:04:20 <Koen__> I'm pretty convinced some of them are sarcasm
22:04:58 <oren> I never read them
22:05:10 <oren> Except to find out song titles
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22:08:37 <ais523> oh, anyway, I had a question for #esoteric
22:08:53 <ais523> something that looks like it might come out of my research is a system of inequalities
22:09:00 <ais523> i.e. a != b, b != c, a != d, etc.
22:09:11 <ais523> obviously you can solve this by making all the values different
22:09:11 <int-e> I'd call those disequalities, carry on.
22:09:27 <ais523> I assume there's probably some algorithm to find the minimum number of values it's possible with, though
22:09:37 <int-e> it's a graph coloring problem
22:09:44 <oren> graph coloring
22:10:00 <oren> specifically vertec coloring
22:10:25 <oren> each inequality is an edge
22:10:28 <ais523> I didn't make the connection, but now I have
22:10:37 <ais523> thanks, I should be able to take it from here
22:10:54 <ais523> (sadly nothing forces these graphs to be planar, or the answer would be "4")
22:11:25 <int-e> NP-hard, but compiler writers are interested in good approximations.
22:12:05 <ais523> compiler writing is the context where this came up, eys
22:12:13 <ais523> oh wow, and just /now/ I've made the connection to register allocation
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00:59:58 <tswett> So, some notions of a "theory" admit a notion of a "free model" and some of them don't.
01:00:30 <tswett> Suppose that by "theory" we mean "variety of algebras". I'm pretty sure a variety of algebras always has a free model.
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01:01:22 <tswett> It's just the collection of all equivalence classes of constant expressions, where two expressions are equivalent if the axioms require them to be equal.
01:02:33 <tswett> First-order logic doesn't admit a notion of a free model, though.
01:02:48 <ais523> can anyone here think of a good use for the lda ($*,x) (where * is any 8-bit integer) instruction in 6502 assembler?
01:02:51 <tswett> You can do the Henkin construction, but the Henkin construction requires making a lot of arbitrary choices.
01:02:59 <tswett> (But not, conveniently enough, the axiom of choice.)
01:03:25 <tswett> ais523: well, what does that do?
01:04:04 <ais523> tswett: it's basically equivalent to *(c[X]) in C, where c is a constant pointer and X is a register; however, the resulting address has to be in the first 256 bytes of memory
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01:05:36 <tswett> So c is an immediate value and X is the value in a register?
01:06:21 <ais523> the problem being that you can't really use this as an array of pointers because you have to put it in a particularly valuable bit of memory
01:06:21 <zzo38> ais523: As far as I remember I have not used that addressing mode
01:06:32 <ais523> zzo38: neither have I, and I've written some 6502 assembler too
01:06:45 <zzo38> Although if I find it useful I might to do so
01:06:48 <ais523> (also I'm not surprised you've worked on 6502 asm, although technically your statement doesn't imply that you have)
01:07:17 <tswett> I don't quite remember all my addressing modes.
01:07:25 <zzo38> I have worked on 6502 asm, and what I have used is several unofficial opcodes, but not that
01:08:14 <ais523> what did the unofficial opcodes do?
01:08:24 <ais523> IIRC they're mostly random mixes of intended opcodes
01:08:57 <zzo38> There are many, for example ANC #immediate will act like AND #imm but also copies the high bit to the carry flag.
01:09:47 <zzo38> LAX will load into both A and X register, but the immediate form of this opcode is unstable so I don't use the immediate mode. (6502: Even the bugs have bugs.)
01:10:04 <ais523> ANC looks like a pretty useful opcode
01:10:11 <ais523> although presumably it works differently on different 6502s
01:11:03 <zzo38> On different version any unofficial opcode may fail, but it works on an actual 6502.
01:11:32 <zzo38> (However, what I am programming for isn't quite an actual 6502; it is an actual 6502 with a few traces cut so that decimal mode won't work.)
01:12:55 <zzo38> This is what it does on Famicom, and now Famicom VM is defined to do those things (although the purpose of unofficial opcodes wasn't defined before Super Nintendo was released, as far as I understand).
01:13:13 <ais523> I'm thinking mostly about NES right now, which is quite similar to Famicom
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01:13:50 <zzo38> Yes, it is quite similar and the same CPU, APU, and PPU is in use too (except PAL NES)
01:14:10 <zzo38> The SED and CLD therefore, will still affect the decimal flag, but this flag does nothing except that it is visible when the flags are pushed to the stack.
01:15:56 <zzo38> What stuff have you written 6502 codes for?
01:17:17 <ais523> I was writing for the BBC Micro
01:17:25 <ais523> BBC Micro B, specifically
01:17:28 <ais523> it had a BASIC interpreter in ROM
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01:21:25 <zzo38> I think I have once worked with an emulator that emulates BBC Micro, although I didn't know much about the features specific to its BASIC interpreter
01:22:46 <ais523> it also had an assembler in ROM
01:26:03 <zzo38> O, it did? I didn't know that either
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01:35:14 <oren> its_some_kind_of_elvish_i_cant_read_it.jpg
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01:36:30 <oren> hm... what country is .za
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01:39:03 <oren> I searched for "ya feks" and i got some stuff from .za, .su, and .ru
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01:40:27 <Jafet> The national TLDs for Zouth Africa, Sumeria and Ruritania.
01:40:29 <Sketra> ya feks is a more toned down version
01:41:12 <oren> I see... south africa, soviet union, and russia
01:41:51 <Sketra> What country do you live in oren
01:42:57 <oren> Canada is only fun in the winter
01:43:20 <Sketra> Burned sanfransico down
01:43:36 <Sketra> It seems very likely someone will do it
01:43:49 <oren> uh... san francisco is in America
01:44:16 <Sketra> I never implied I was talking about Canada...
01:44:41 <oren> Uh... So why would you burn san francisco donw?
01:45:36 <oren> Also that already happened in 1906
01:45:47 <oren> By an earthquake
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01:48:07 <oren> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/San_Francisco_in_ruin_edit2.jpg
01:49:24 <Sketra> their fault for building on a fault
01:49:49 <ais523> this conversation is surprisingly offtopic even for this channel
01:50:14 <Sketra> You know what else is a surprise
01:50:24 <ais523> unless destroying cities is somehow Turing-complete, and I don't think we can manage that due to only having finitely many cities
01:50:58 <Sketra> No one can arrest me if they are all on fire ais253
01:51:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
01:51:23 <ais523> seriously, though? can't you find something more appropriate to talk about?
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01:52:07 <Sketra> I wish irc had some sort of msg delete system but its just really a real time logging system
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01:52:54 <Sketra> Do you want a kitty ais253
01:53:44 <Sketra> How was your day then?
01:54:51 <Sketra> I can make faces with this language ㅎ-ㅎ
01:54:55 <ais523> I slept in, then spent the afternoon thinking about my job, and got some useful advice from #esoteric
01:55:49 <zzo38> I think IRC doesn't need some kind of msg delete system
01:56:21 <Sketra> Think of how useful that would be though
01:56:37 <oren> I went to work with my project group at school, but I didn't do anything
01:56:47 <Sketra> If you ban someone it delete all there messages
01:57:23 <ais523> anyone could remember that the message had been said, though
01:57:42 <ais523> even if you delete all electronic copies, you're not going to delete them from the minds of the recipients
01:57:44 <zzo38> You can, however, parse the logs and filter out any messages of people you don't want (whether because they are banned or for another reason)
01:57:44 <oren> I spent the time helping the artists get their files into the repository and reading manga
01:58:17 <Sketra> They'll forget within days
01:58:49 <Sketra> Seeing a string of insulting text upon a LCD won't be remembered for long my Good sir
01:59:12 <ais523> for some reason my first thought in reply to that was "I'll have to get a CRT"
01:59:20 <ais523> I might have the wrong attitude for this conversation…
01:59:28 <oren> Well what if I enable logging on my client
01:59:52 <zzo38> I believe in freedom of speech
02:00:03 <oren> Right. Freedom of speech
02:00:34 <oren> You can say what you want, but you can't stop people from reacting to what you say
02:00:52 <ais523> unless the reaction is illegal in its own right
02:00:53 <Sketra> I cannot detect attitude over the internet
02:01:29 <oren> ais523: I was thinking of verbal reactions, but yeah
02:01:34 <ais523> well, in my case, assume that I'm intentionally trying to push conversations into the absurd in an attempt to derail them
02:01:55 <Sketra> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1375919!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/aquaweb19f-3-web.jpg
02:01:57 <zzo38> oren: Well, yes, although you should still be allowed to keep it recorded; other people should be allowed to write comment/complaint on it too though
02:01:59 <ais523> (at least for offtopic conversations; with ontopic conversations, pushing them into the absurd is normally impossible because they're already there)
02:02:12 <Sketra> What are turing machines
02:02:15 <oren> I have a CRT in my basement that we are not allowed to throw out
02:02:33 <ais523> Sketra: basically it's a computational model
02:02:42 <ais523> here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_machine
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02:03:01 <Sketra> Sorry but the esolangs wiki is infinitely loading for me
02:03:01 <ais523> or I guess the Wikipedia article is probably better
02:03:05 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
02:03:10 <oren> underwater bicycles?
02:03:23 <Sketra> All wiki pages are infinite load
02:03:48 <oren> the picture sketra linked to. underwater bicycles
02:03:58 <Sketra> oren its illegal in California to ride your bycicle in a pool
02:04:03 <ais523> oh right, I'm not used to people following links
02:04:25 <oren> I didn't technically follow it. I wgot it
02:04:43 <Sketra> ais253 What would you gain from pushing topic into absurdity its human nature to reply to dumb topics
02:05:01 <zzo38> Why should you want to ride a bicycle underwater anyways?
02:05:15 <oren> To avoid getting sweaty?
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02:05:24 <Sketra> Try for a more reasonable approach such as "Lets talk about Programming" would be ofc a better example
02:05:35 <Sketra> zzo38 Twice the exercise
02:05:39 <ais523> I've found it one way to try to moderate a channel without having to ban anyone
02:05:45 <ais523> another method is to have some ontopic conversations ready
02:05:51 <ais523> and to start them up with someone you know will join in
02:05:59 <ais523> but that's hard to do at ~2am UTC
02:06:05 <ais523> (easier than at ~6am UTC though)
02:06:09 <Sketra> Go to sleep my dear sir
02:06:23 <Sketra> Fix your sleep schedule
02:06:54 <zzo38> It seem like it will be difficult to try to ride a bicycle underwater, but you can try, but nevertheless try to be careful please
02:07:19 <zzo38> ais523: What timezone are you at though? And, what timezone other people at, too?
02:07:32 <ais523> zzo38: perhaps an underwater exercise bicycle would make for a better, or at least different, exercise experience
02:07:41 <ais523> and the country I'm currently living in is currently at UTC+0
02:07:50 <Sketra> its 6:08pm I don't do time zones
02:08:12 <Sketra> I just read the clock you can figure it out yourself
02:08:30 <ais523> that normally indicates the western edge of the US, although there are other possibilities
02:08:46 <Sketra> The forthmost answer is correct
02:09:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, at least it would make a different kind of exercise; it would do that at least.
02:09:42 <Sketra> Zzo38 it would be best to strap them to the bottom and have straps on the peddles
02:09:55 <zzo38> You don't do timezones?
02:10:34 <zzo38> You could use solar time, but that isn't quite the same use on the clock and on computer etc
02:10:35 <ais523> I implemented timezones in NetHack 4 a while back, it allows you to specify any 15-minute offset from UTC up to (IIRC) +/- 1200
02:11:02 <zzo38> Why do you need timezones in NetHack?
02:11:02 <ais523> basically because I thought there might be a potential for DST-related exploits (like there are in second-gen Pokémon games)
02:11:11 <ais523> because some monsters are more dangerous at night
02:11:27 <ais523> it probably also affects moon phases, although I'm not sure that it should
02:11:44 <oren> I am in -0500 according to date
02:12:07 <ais523> that most commonly implies eastern US
02:12:11 <Sketra> on my client it lists me as being in 2:15 Pm 11/19/1947
02:12:26 <ais523> hmm, that's a weird time
02:12:37 <ais523> I wonder if it's 32-bit INT_MIN interpreted as a date
02:13:00 <Sketra> Internal clock must have goofed
02:13:41 <ais523> $ date -d @-2147483648
02:13:42 <ais523> Fri Dec 13 20:45:52 GMT 1901
02:14:12 <oren> 2038 is the max
02:14:42 <Sketra> I think my client runs off my computers internal clock
02:14:45 <oren> yes. in 2038 unix date times willneed to be 64 bit
02:15:19 <Sketra> I may have been messing with time setting ealier and fell asleep before I fixed them
02:15:23 <ais523> oren: I ran into that problem already
02:15:31 <ais523> when giving one of the traditional 24-year bans on the wiki
02:15:40 <ais523> but apparently it got fixed by a wiki upgrade
02:16:08 <Sketra> Why would you ban for 24 years
02:16:20 <Sketra> I'm usually devastated when I'm banned from sites
02:16:54 <ais523> it's not bans for humans
02:17:09 <Sketra> I ran into a spam bot once
02:17:14 <MDude> Enough to have them banned for one day if they spend it in some kind of time chamber.
02:17:37 <ais523> I used to run into them a lot, but the spam filters and CAPTCHA on the wiki have been holding recently
02:17:49 <Sketra> Also how do spam bots spam on the wiki
02:18:02 <ais523> same way a human would spam on the wiki: create account, create a page, put spam there
02:18:14 <ais523> except that the spambots have the huge disadvantage that they haven't figured out newlines yet
02:18:20 <ais523> which makes them quite easy to automatically detect
02:18:47 <ais523> basically, they make a page using entirely <br> or <br /> as line breaks
02:18:56 <ais523> rather than two newlines, which is the way most humans do line breaks
02:19:51 <Sketra> I may be a bot -///- You just never know what humans can make up
02:20:16 <MDude> Exactly, you could be spying to find out the secret of newlines.
02:20:46 <Sketra> I just told you I would be devastated if I got banned
02:20:49 <ais523> MDude: actually, one of the most damaging things you can do to spammers is to waste their time
02:21:27 <ais523> because spam has pretty tight margins, especially when humans get involved
02:21:31 <Sketra> What was the most catastrophic thing to happen to esolangs
02:21:59 <ais523> the server's been moved a few times
02:22:07 <ais523> and the site's been down during server moves
02:22:23 <ais523> also, it's not technically the wiki, but as the topic says, fungot is trapped in a house with no internet
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02:23:59 <Sketra> good thing this went from setting people on fire to underwater bycicles to turing machines to spam bot protection
02:27:05 <Sketra> I'm off to do some deeds
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02:34:33 <zzo38> Do you like to make up "Phyrexian Nix" card of Magic: the Gathering?
02:35:12 <zzo38> There is a "Nix" card in Future Sight, but now we can make up the Phyrexian version?
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03:37:43 <MDude> Looking up reversible computing terms, what I'm trying to do seems fairly similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rc-table.png
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03:43:11 <zzo38> OK, but what does the "v@ = w;" and "v = @w;" stuff means there? It says "constructive assignment" but I still don't quite know
03:49:33 <MDude> I'm not entirely sure.
03:49:51 <MDude> By constructive it means reversible, though.
03:51:11 <MDude> Probably I'll just stick with making the language I was going to and look into whatever this idea was later.
03:57:42 <MDude> I'll try to get back to this in the morning now that I've started writing things down.
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05:24:33 <oren> Hmm... it would help considerably if matlab would tell me how long a computation is going to take.
05:27:45 <ais523> I get the impression that Matlab is terribly coded internally
05:27:59 <ais523> e.g. at one point Simulink started giving me incorrect answers, then crashed
05:28:30 <ais523> zzo38: I always thought Nix was overcosted; that's an interesting way of making it cheaper
05:28:39 <ais523> but it would probably be overpowered in Vintage (and unplayable elsewhere)
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05:44:52 <oren> grr... cp with one argument should copy it into the current directory
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06:00:10 <ais523> you can give . as the second argument
06:02:28 <oren> i know but i'm lazy
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06:04:11 <oren> 出来た！ https://github.com/orenwatson/jpeg_tailor
06:07:22 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I thought that too
06:10:10 <oren> I decided to start putting things online so i can reference them
06:10:23 <zzo38> That it seems like might be a bit overcosted
06:11:50 <zzo38> Still, I don't know how overpowered it would be in Vintage though; I'm not completely sure, nevertheless it might work if restricted in Vintage
06:12:15 <zzo38> (Someone else told me the name "Phyrexian Nix" isn't good enough because it has two "X"s in it)
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06:13:29 <oren> should it have fewer or more?
06:14:12 <zzo38> They said two is too many, apparently
06:14:42 <zzo38> But, I just made up the name to be descriptive; I don't actually know if it would be the proper name or not.
06:15:41 <oren> phairekzian nicks
06:16:18 <oren> wait... doesn't "nix" mean snow in Latin?
06:16:55 <zzo38> I don't know, but nevertheless it isn't what I was refering to.
06:17:14 <zzo38> But if you understand Latin, then perhaps you can know.
06:19:20 <oren> hmm i was right, but the card is just named for the english word
06:22:05 <oren> so a phyrexian nix would cost 1 unstead of U?
06:23:23 <zzo38> No, it would cost one blue mana or two life
06:48:27 <Sgeo> How likely is a phone to catch fire if it sustained arbitrary saltwater+fall damage?
06:49:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GOTO 10]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42090 * Qpliu * (+3052) Add GOTO 10
06:50:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42091&oldid=42068 * Qpliu * (+14) /* G */ Add GOTO 10
06:51:32 <oren> Hmm... i think it would depend on whether it was fully charged or not
06:53:29 <Sgeo> It seems to be fully charged now
06:53:33 <Sgeo> It's working, apparently
06:53:40 <Sgeo> I'm just wondering if using it is a terminally bad idea
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07:05:22 <oren> salt water can cause the batteries to short-circuit but if that hasn't happened then i doubt it will
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07:05:46 <oren> I would clean it with alcohol though
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07:13:32 <zzo38> What does "Hocus pocus Domi Nocus" mean?
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07:31:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i long ago read "hocus pocus" a corruption of the latin eucharist, although i now see there are other theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hocus_Pocus_(magic)#.E2.80.98Dog.E2.80.99_Latin , domi nocus could be a corruption of "dominus", Lord.
07:51:25 <ais523> btw, it's ais523 lawful good day today
07:51:32 <ais523> I was thinking about not mentioning it and seeing if anyone noticed
07:51:37 <ais523> but that wouldn't be very lawful of me
07:52:10 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
07:55:04 <ais523> strangely enough, the lawful part seems harder
07:56:36 <oerjan> that's because laws are actually evil hth
07:57:20 <oerjan> NA NA NA NA NOT LISTENING TO YOUR EVIL RATIONALIZATION
07:58:09 <ais523> I meant "it didn't really help", but it isn't really true either
07:58:15 <ais523> they're tools that can be used for both good and evil
07:58:22 <zzo38> Laws aren't necessarily evil.
08:02:17 <zzo38> Although, it can sometimes be...
08:02:25 <oerjan> what is that strange bright white thing reflecting in the neighbors' window
08:02:40 <oerjan> is it the fabled daystar
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08:40:44 <zzo38> I don't know; you would have to look by yourself
08:44:27 <oerjan> but it's too bright to look at!
08:56:49 <Taneb> Happy lawful good day, ais523
08:58:06 <myname> what the hell is a lawful good day?
08:58:45 <ais523> "lawful good" is an "alignment" classification in the roleplaying game dungeons & dragons
08:58:49 <ais523> it's a little hard to define well
08:59:07 <ais523> and according to the learndb, I'm lawful good on march 2
08:59:45 <myname> somebody defined it for you?
08:59:55 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
09:00:04 <ais523> I suspect it was in response to something I mentioned
09:00:09 <ais523> not sure if it was me who physically added it
09:00:14 <ais523> but I tend towards lawful good most of the time anyway
09:00:30 <ais523> I mean, I don't /feel/ that lawful, but I tend to see pretty much everyone else as chaotic
09:00:38 <ais523> so I suspect I just have a skewed viewpoint
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09:01:54 <myname> that sounds pretty normal for an alien
09:02:24 <Taneb> I seem to have ended up flitting around the good alignments
09:03:16 <ais523> I think ng/cg are probably the most common alignments in real life
09:04:04 <myname> i want to be chaotic neutral
09:05:24 <ais523> I don't think it's impossible to live with a CN character
09:05:30 <ais523> but their carelessness can put people in danger
09:05:56 <myname> as long as it's not me
09:06:40 <Taneb> myname, you are bad in my viewpoint because you contradict my sense of morality
09:07:02 <ais523> negligence is illegal for a reason
09:07:13 <ais523> (and a good reason, at that)
09:14:20 <oerjan> <ais523> I implemented timezones in NetHack 4 a while back, it allows you to specify any 15-minute offset from UTC up to (IIRC) +/- 1200 <-- what do you have against the samoans
09:14:42 <ais523> oerjan: that's what the IIRC was for
09:14:50 <ais523> I'd consider opening the range a bit further for that
09:15:02 <ais523> however, if it's too wide, people can use it to dodge inconvenient calendar days
09:15:49 <oerjan> nethack depends on days?
09:16:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about moon though
09:16:20 <ais523> the only thing the timezone even matters for is realtime-dependent things
09:16:47 <elliott> are the existing timezones
09:17:15 <ais523> oh, my current range is -13 to +13
09:17:23 <elliott> that's both too strict and too loose
09:17:26 <ais523> let me see if I can change that without invalidating existing saves
09:17:38 <elliott> also, I think there are a few not on 15-minute boundaries
09:17:48 <ais523> not even 15-minute boundaries?
09:18:16 <elliott> looks like 30 and 45 minutes are the oddest ones
09:18:33 <elliott> (I mean, for the minute fields)
09:18:54 <ais523> <ais523> (if I've missed a country near the dateline or one with a weird offset, let me know)
09:18:57 <ais523> yep, I should change this
09:20:26 <Taneb> I should get into NetHack
09:22:05 <ais523> I'll help you learn NetHack if I have spare time and am online at the same time as you, if you like
09:22:54 <Taneb> myname, I do play Dwarf Fortress
09:23:16 <Taneb> ais523, thank you, but I have a lecture in 42 minutes and I am still in my pyjamas
09:23:26 <ais523> right, the offer didn't necessarily imply right now
09:23:39 <ais523> (I assume this is not the sort of lecture that could reasonably be attended in pyjamas)
09:23:39 <Taneb> Maybe some other time
09:24:03 <Taneb> (it's the sort of lecture that no-one has tried to attend in pyjamas, although I could probably get away with it)
09:24:09 <myname> nethack is way easier than df
09:24:10 <ais523> who should I credit for this timezone range fix? #esoteric as a whole?
09:24:19 <ais523> myname: well DF doesn't actually have a victory condition
09:24:25 <ais523> so they're quite hard to compare for difficulty in that respect
09:24:27 <Taneb> (the issue is that it is 2.7 degrees outside and the lecture is a mile's walk away)
09:24:30 <ais523> NetHack's interface is better, neither is great
09:24:51 <myname> i meant difficulty in terms of learning to play it
09:24:52 <ais523> myname: Fun is probably easier in NetHack than DF, admittedly
09:25:07 <ais523> I can't think of a way to creatively suicide in DF /quite/ as fast as you can in NetHack
09:26:12 <ais523> this doesn't really need crediting at all, I guess
09:26:19 <ais523> but it feels wrong to not mention credit on lawful good day
09:26:30 <ais523> gah, I'm going to be stuck with this sort of dilemma all day, aren't I?
09:26:33 <Taneb> The last time I tried to play NetHack, I drank from a fountain and then there were snakes everywhere
09:27:14 <myname> i mess up sokoban way to often
09:27:24 <ais523> hmm, I'm going to say "well don't do that then", rather than the typical reaction along the lines of "YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED, DIRTY FOUNTAIN QUAFFER"
09:28:24 <ais523> Taneb: well don't do that then
09:28:29 <oerjan> ais523: just credit it to me hth
09:28:31 <Taneb> ais523, I will bear that in mind
09:28:50 <ais523> bleh, I suspect I'm being trolled
09:29:01 <ais523> I'll credit it to you if you like, though
09:29:05 <ais523> (does elliott want credit too?)
09:29:26 <oerjan> you can write my name as "Ørjan Johansen, my Lord and Master" hth
09:29:45 <ais523> there are other ways to write your name too
09:29:50 <ais523> elliott: for the NH4 timezone change
09:29:55 <oerjan> (just trying to remove all suspicion here)
09:30:31 <ais523> OK, I think this solves my issue
09:30:38 <oerjan> of course i won't complain much if you countertroll by taking me literally
09:30:56 <ais523> besides, it lets me fit more non-ASCII characters into the commit log
09:31:07 <ais523> but I think I'll leave the bit after the comma off, it seems inappropriate
09:31:16 <oerjan> on reflection, i think counter-troll needs a hyphen
09:31:46 <Taneb> I should start writing my surname "van D∞m"
09:32:08 <ais523> I doubt most spellcheckers would recognise it without the -
09:32:13 <ais523> on the other hand, language has a tendency to evolve
09:32:26 <ais523> the #esoteric version would probably use a diaeresis despite the fact that diaereses don't work like that
09:32:54 <HackEgo> [U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D] [U+221E INFINITY] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M]
09:33:07 <ais523> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER RN
09:33:17 <coppro> ais523: cöunter-troll?
09:33:18 <ais523> that's what I expected
09:33:27 <ais523> coppro: that'd be pronounced "co-unter troll"
09:33:28 <oerjan> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER RN
09:33:46 <ais523> which is quite a neat word, but which would sound noticeably different
09:33:49 <coppro> ais523: well if you want to get technical, the diaresis should be on the u, I dunno how that's pronounced
09:33:57 <oerjan> we need boily here as the diäëresis authority
09:34:59 <ais523> diaeresis basically just puts a syllable break between two vowels, causing them to be pronounced individually
09:35:11 <ais523> back when I was young, it was still mentioned in some books that taught English
09:35:38 <Taneb> Outside of this channel I've only seen in it in some variations of the name Zoe
09:35:40 <ais523> I have a theory that it was driven almost to extinction by the use of ASCII-based computers (and also printing presses and typewriters to some extent, but those are better at them)
09:35:59 <ais523> Taneb: right, Zoë and Noël were probably the most common uses at the time
09:36:15 <ais523> (oë is pronounced "oh-ee", as expected)
09:36:39 <Taneb> But now I see that quite often without diaereses
09:36:40 <coppro> Taneb: don't forget the Encyclopædia Britannica
09:36:43 <oerjan> the co-unter trolls, coënslaving the coübertrolls
09:37:06 <Taneb> oerjan, the categoric dual of übertrolls?
09:37:28 <coppro> ais523: that and the fact that it's really inadequate in modern English
09:37:31 <ais523> oerjan: I'm genuinely impressed at the way you managed to work "uber"/"über" in there, leaving it ambiguous
09:37:31 <Taneb> Or are they trolls that are coüber
09:38:40 <coppro> due to loanwords and calques, and the rarity of two consecutive vowel sounds, it really isn't that good
09:39:09 <ais523> I think the main issue is that the hyphen is normally pretty suitable, it serves almost the same purpose in that context
09:39:10 <Taneb> coppro, how uncooperative and unscientific of you
09:39:33 <coppro> I don't like the hyphen
09:39:46 <coppro> I prefer coöperate to co-operate, where ambiguous
09:40:06 <Taneb> Hmm, I actually pronounce "science" with the same vowel sound as "fire"
09:40:57 <ais523> "co-operate" looks like it has a meaning of "to operate alongside with"
09:41:06 <ais523> "the co-pilot is responsible for co-operating the plane"
09:42:04 <Taneb> I'll need to recooperate after this discussion
09:42:22 <coppro> it doens't help that no native english speaker reasonably expects to be able to pronounce the vowels in a word based on its spelling
09:42:42 <ais523> do any non-native english speakers expect that after a little experience?
09:42:51 <ais523> and I don't think the situation's quite that bad
09:42:56 <ais523> some words don't follow a pattern, but many do
09:43:22 <coppro> there are enough common exceptions to break things, though
09:43:30 <coppro> like 'though' and 'through'
09:43:45 <Taneb> coppro, that's tough
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09:44:08 <Taneb> Someone ought to fix that
09:44:27 <ais523> I'm not sure anyone has the power; and if anyone did, they would probably get in trouble for using it that way
09:44:43 <coppro> also some variants of thorough
09:44:56 <Taneb> ais523, not if they're thorough
09:45:13 <coppro> I'm pretty sure some speakers will use five different vowels for those five words
09:46:37 <Taneb> coppro, I think there are 10 or 11 different ways
09:46:58 <ais523> hmm, I pronounce the vowels as though = show, through = who, tough = stuff, trough = cloth (although the final consonant is slightly different), and thorough has two vowels but the second seems to be a neutral er
09:47:09 <ais523> but I'm having problems thinking of a word with a neutral er in right now
09:47:35 <ais523> slightly weaker than the second vowel in "partner" I guess
09:48:37 <ais523> yeah, that's close enough
09:48:43 <ais523> possibly /too/ neutral though
09:48:45 <coppro> ais523: yeah, those match mine
09:48:50 <ais523> bleh, English is so variable
09:48:59 <Taneb> I love how "banana" has three vowels with the same letter and three different pronunciations
09:48:59 <ais523> coppro: and yet, your accident is unlikely to match mine, due to the nationality difference
09:49:27 <coppro> welcome to linguistics
09:49:28 <Taneb> ais523, I highly doubt our accents match very much, or even me and elliott
09:49:54 <coppro> for me, the word "thorough" rhymes with "full"
09:50:07 <ais523> you mean matching vowels? or an actual rhyme?
09:50:08 <coppro> with a slightly weaker, but still audible, l sound
09:51:15 <Taneb> I should really get dressed and leave soon
09:51:33 <ais523> barring someone with founder status going crazy, #esoteric will still be here when you get back
09:52:00 <ais523> hmm, and the founder status apparently belongs to freenode-staff
09:52:23 <ais523> a little surprising, you'd expect it to either belong to one of the channel regulars, or belong to someone who hasn't been seen for years
09:52:37 <Taneb> Maybe the original founder was deregistered
09:52:52 <zzo38> I made a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.2 but it still has some things wrong with it; I have thought of a few things to try to fix it, though, but I can tell you what is wrong. I need to ensure that if you have bad luck, you cannot win the subgame, and that opponent is able to get the chance to cast Golden Wish on the turn after you have controlled him, but not during that turn.
09:57:30 <zzo38> But that nevertheless you can still win the main game regardless of how the cards are shuffled in the subgame, who goes first in the subgame, or how much your opponent mulligans during the subgame.
09:58:21 <ais523> zzo38: in that case, why wouldn't you just concede the subgame?
09:58:23 <ais523> rather than playing it out?
09:58:47 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering how the changes to the Wish rules affect subgames
09:59:10 <ais523> can you wish for main game cards from the subgame? and can you riftsweeper in main game cards from the subgame?
10:06:05 <b_jonas> wait... Riftsweeper is another card with the ability of Pull from Eternity? I thought they made only one such card, even in the block with suspend
10:07:03 <b_jonas> and in green too... strange
10:07:16 <b_jonas> I thought this would be a white or blue ability only
10:07:21 <ais523> it's a creature rather than an instant/sorcery
10:07:35 <b_jonas> I guess it's understandible because green gets to recycle all types of cards from the graveyard
10:07:45 <oerjan> Taneb: i remember the founder used to be someone with a greek-sounding nick
10:08:38 <zzo38> ais523: This puzzle http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 you can't win by just conceding the subgame
10:08:41 <oerjan> and they indeed got deregistered, which isn't surprising given they'd been gone for years
10:08:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that was it
10:09:12 <zzo38> And I believe that the rules allow you to take cards from anywhere in the main game as if they were in your sideboard; someone else confirmed this.
10:09:31 <zzo38> (I'm not sure what happens with exiled face-down cards you own but aren't allowed to look at.)
10:09:49 <ais523> somehow I feel that makes it a little less elegant
10:09:55 <ais523> also, the rules used to say that
10:10:05 <ais523> but they changed a few years ago, and I don't know if the new rules still say that
10:10:18 <zzo38> It was the newest rules that I studied.
10:10:30 <zzo38> And that I asked about.
10:11:08 <b_jonas> ok wait, which white card exiles creatures and says in the flavor text that they don't use death penalty?
10:12:34 <zzo38> The current rules prohibit you from taking exiled cards from the current game as if they were in your sideboard, but does allow taking them from exile zone in a game that this is a subgame of, as if they were in your sideboard.
10:13:34 <ais523> b_jonas: swords to plowshares, path to exile, oust are the best-known white exilers
10:13:39 <ais523> wait, oust doesn't exile
10:13:44 <ais523> probably path to exile
10:15:21 <b_jonas> ais523: hehe, those are the ones the most used in competitions, but to me Unamake, Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, and some blinkers are more familiar
10:16:52 <zzo38> You can't just concede the subgame immediately because the point of entering the subgame isn't just to half your life total, to shuffle anyone's library, or to look at the cards in your library (which you already know anyways). Opponent can't concede because then he would lose the main game too.
10:18:00 <ais523> zzo38: well, suppose you enter the subgame
10:18:04 <ais523> and your opponent gets first turn
10:18:11 <ais523> then you immediately lose it due to drawing from an empty library
10:18:33 <b_jonas> can't you still cast instants before that?
10:18:41 <ais523> yes but you have no cards in hand
10:18:48 <b_jonas> you lose when drawing your initial hand?
10:18:48 <ais523> you start the subgame with an empty library
10:18:59 <b_jonas> oh, it's so empty you don't even get your starting 7 cards
10:19:02 <b_jonas> lose while you're drawing those
10:19:03 <ais523> I assumed either you wouldn't lose, or you could avoid losing via mulliganing to 0
10:19:06 <ais523> I think we need a judge for this
10:19:14 <b_jonas> no, I think it's in the rules
10:19:20 <zzo38> You can lose when drawing your initial hand (well, just afterward; you won't lose until someone gets priority); even if you mulligan, I think.
10:19:24 <ais523> you could possibly pull it off in Conspiracy too
10:19:34 <ais523> via running eight "reduce minimum deck size" conspiracies
10:19:36 <zzo38> But that won't happen if you solve the puzzle correctly...
10:19:57 <ais523> you'd need to put more cards into your library first, then, I guess
10:21:40 <ais523> I'm not actually trying to solve the puzzle
10:23:11 <zzo38> The fact that there is no mana burn in the current rules is important because otherwise you might lose due to mana burn, I think
10:23:47 <b_jonas> yes, look Shahrazad even has a ruling
10:23:55 <b_jonas> "At the start of the sub-game both players draw their initial hand (usually 7 cards). If one player has fewer cards than required, that player loses. If both have fewer than required, both players lose."
10:24:20 <b_jonas> that might be obsolate, btu I think the first part still applies
10:24:28 <b_jonas> because the rules definitely say you _draw_ seven cards
10:24:41 <zzo38> Some of the rulings for other cards are disputed, although I do not dispute this one.
10:25:15 <zzo38> That specific ruling looks correct to me.
10:25:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, some of them are definitely obsolate because the rules have changed since
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12:06:32 <Jafet> Tough, trough, though, through, thorough, dough, plough, hiccough
12:08:08 <Jafet> Oh wait, dough isn't unique
12:16:15 <boily> Jafellot. why so much matinal suffering.
12:18:13 <b_jonas> Jafet: wait, I have a list
12:18:37 <b_jonas> here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Pronounciation_of_-ough_in_Englishhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Pronounciation_of_-ough_in_English
12:18:43 <b_jonas> how many there are depends on the dialect
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14:16:56 <Taneb> Well, I made it to that lecture
14:17:01 <Taneb> It was a very useful lecture
14:17:08 <Taneb> I registered to vote during it
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14:20:35 <ais523> presumably not in pyjamas
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14:22:25 <Taneb> No, it was cold outside
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15:45:26 <myname> is there any befunge-like language for more than two dimensions?
15:45:50 <ais523> I'm not sure it's been generalized past two though
15:46:23 <myname> it'd be possible using gifs or the like, but i don't know any
15:46:59 <ais523> trefunge uses formfeed to separate planes, just like befunge uses newline to separate lines
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15:49:25 <gamemanj> That must be a pain to program in.
15:49:41 <gamemanj> You'd need a special editor to know that stuff actually lined up.
15:51:20 <ais523> I think Befunge IDEs exist, don't know if they generalise to Trefunge
15:56:24 <ais523> Unefunge is a fun language too
15:56:37 <ais523> even if it's basically just a subset of Befunge where you don't have to specify y coordinates
15:56:55 <myname> is unefunge proven to be tc?
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16:03:03 <ais523> I'm pretty sure unefunge-98 is (assuming at least one fingerprint that gives access to infinite memory in a non-insane way)
16:03:08 <ais523> (or even cetain insane ways)
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20:15:45 <Soni> regex meets brainfuck: https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/36d2ccf875ea025c8fe5
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20:21:34 <elliott> wait, where's the brainfuck? >.>
20:23:18 <Soni> I meant it's made to be very simple
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20:24:48 <elliott> I kinda think of regexps as regexps meets brainfuck already
20:24:54 <elliott> especially in the readability department
20:25:11 <Soni> that's what using % to escape stuff instead of \ solves
20:25:15 <Soni> (see also lua patterns)
20:27:10 <Soni> \\\\\\\\ vs \\\\ (or with "raw strings" just \\)
20:29:38 <elliott> I mean not counting additional string quoting there
20:29:50 <elliott> though it's horrible to write regexps in languages where you have to use normal string syntax for it yeah
20:31:13 <Soni> (abc|def) is clunky, Lua's issue of not being able to do [a-%%] is also clunky
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20:31:38 <Soni> I solve both while keeping it simple
20:32:32 <Soni> and ofc I also support being able to put [] inside [] (which's just silly but w/e)
20:32:43 <elliott> it's just a composition of (...) and |
20:32:52 <elliott> (you can actually do foo|bar at the top-level)
20:32:53 <Soni> things I'm lacking: anchors and precedence
20:33:06 <elliott> it's annoying how syntactic grouping without creating a match group is (?:...), though
20:33:14 <Soni> meh, [(foo)(bar)] parsing is easier to code
20:34:23 <Soni> I don't specify if groups are match groups or just syntactic groups
20:34:37 <elliott> (I mean in normal regexps)
20:34:40 <Soni> I guess that's what version 0.1 is for
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21:04:11 <oren> interesting fact: memmove is much slower than using memcpy with a scrap buffer.
21:05:23 <elliott> it would be kind of bad if a large memmove caused a large allocation I guess
21:05:35 <oren> I think that is what happens
21:06:35 <oren> And the memcpy is faster because the scrap buffer is allocated only once
21:07:02 <elliott> I seriously doubt that's what happens
21:07:28 <elliott> you just implement memmove by going backwards or whatever
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21:07:51 <oren> That is what I would do, but why would it be slower then?
21:08:00 <elliott> stuff about caches or whatever
21:08:01 <olsner> memmove typically needs to check which part of the buffer overlaps and then go forwards/backwards as apporpriate
21:08:15 <elliott> yeah but I doubt one branch makes that much difference
21:08:26 <elliott> unless oren is testing with really tiny n
21:09:02 <oren> my tests were in the context of https://github.com/orenwatson/jpeg_tailor
21:09:23 <oren> To remove one pixel from a scanline I copy the rest of the line back
21:10:06 <oren> So N is in [0,4K] or something
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21:15:38 <oren> Hm... Maybe something to do with SIMD instructions?
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21:33:05 <gamemanj> How esoteric would you define this to be?: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/in.oshl
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21:34:53 <zzo38> In Pascal, SQL, and some versions of BASIC, there is no string escaping but you can make the string delimiter doubled to make quotations marks inside of the string.
21:36:10 <gamemanj> So what would happen if you had to output BASIC with "" in from a program written in BASIC? """"?
21:38:03 <b_jonas> gamemanj: you have to write it as PRINT CHR$(38)+CHR$(38)
21:40:24 <oren> I prefer hollerith
21:51:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip/Examples]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42092&oldid=42077 * Ypnypn * (+27) /* Quine */
22:04:13 <oren> 110 FORMAT (13HHello, World!)
22:04:29 <oren> 10 WRITE (*,110)
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22:26:00 <tswett> Hm. Assuming ZFC is consistent, it's possible to explicitly define a countable model of ZFC.
22:26:15 <tswett> It's not computable, but it's definable.
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22:32:47 <oren> Gah what is your definition of convenient?
22:33:37 <oren> What /would/ it take to make set theory computable
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22:41:09 <oren> Are there any programming languages where sets are a first class data type?
22:46:36 <oren> Hmm... It actually might be harder than i thought. you need some way of manipulating infinite sets without reifying them
22:49:37 <elliott> there's one or two on the wiki even
22:49:48 <elliott> also type theory is famous for doing this (though with types rather than sets, but)
22:50:08 <elliott> also there are constructive set theories. you can compute with them
22:50:12 <elliott> (depending on what you mean by "computing" though)
22:53:35 <oren> Hm... I guess I don't know what I mean by computing, except that calculators generally don't do it and computers do...
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22:54:48 <oren> I guess it's something to do with the complexity of the input versus the output?
22:57:26 <oren> Nah... more like, a "computer" has the ability to be programmed with new behaviour.
22:57:56 <oren> Whereas a calculator generally can't
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23:01:45 <oren> So a computer where there are no programming tools would IMO be just an advanced calculator, not a real computer
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23:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, so like... a smartphone is an advanced calculator?
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23:26:26 <oren> pretty much. Their behaviour is too closely linked to their input... Unless the game is minecraft or dwarf fortress etc.
23:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> 'their behaviour is too closely linked to their input' what does this even mean
23:45:26 <zzo38> I agree that a computer without programming tools won't be very good.
23:45:38 <zzo38> Any computer should include programming tools built-in.
23:48:47 <zzo38> Also there are programmable calculators too
23:50:02 <paul2520> that's how I first learned to program
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00:16:07 <elliott> oren: have you ever used a modern smartphone
00:16:24 <Koen_> wait do we have modern smartphones now?
00:16:57 <Koen_> I can't keep up if smartphones are already no longer modern
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00:19:11 <oren> I have used one yes...
00:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, honestly i don't see any point at all in setting up rigid taxonomies like this
00:21:47 <oren> I dunno if it's a rigid taxonomy, but there are things i would call computers, and i think to call something a computer means you can program it
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00:24:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ok, but that gets complicated when you consider the large category of devices which are programmable, but not by themselves
00:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> this spans things which are very like 'computers' (smartphones, consoles) to things which are more on the 'advanced calculator' side of things (stuff with upgradable firmware)
00:27:53 <oren> Maybe there's no dividing line, but theres certainly a value of computeriness
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00:28:11 <oren> where a computer is one and a rock is zero
00:29:18 <Phantom_Hoover> that's such an arbitrary concept there's nothing certain about it
00:29:47 <oren> everything is arbitrary but some things are useful
00:30:07 <Taneb> My increasing tendency to wear ties despite not wearing a tie-appropriate shirt is beginning to get attention
00:30:58 <oren> you mean you wear a tie with a t-shirt?
00:31:16 <MDude> You will soon lead the world to a new age of freedom.
00:31:21 <Taneb> With a fleece or a hoodie, generally
00:31:37 <zzo38> At least my opinion is that a computer should have programming tools built-in; that is the minimal software it should come with, although it is useful to have more
00:31:51 <oren> Taneb: I... you... what
00:31:58 <MDude> Or wardrobe freedom anyway.
00:32:19 <Taneb> oren, that is the reaction I get from most people
00:32:24 <Taneb> And the reaction I strive for in life
00:33:11 <oren> OK you know what, I'll do that tomorrow
00:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i got that reaction for a while because of how i walked up the stairs in lectures
00:33:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, oh?
00:33:49 <oren> when giving them you mean?
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00:35:05 <oren> So you enter via the downstairs entrance and then climb to your seat?
00:35:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, can you describe your stairclimbing method?
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00:38:44 <Taneb> Sometimes when I am sat in the middle of a row near the front and want to leave at the end of a lecture, I clamber over the seats in front of me rather than wait for the people around me to move
00:47:15 <oren> Anyway what if wearing ties with inappropriate shirts becomes a trend?
00:47:53 <Taneb> Then I will be a trendsetter
00:52:40 <oren> Well I have a presentation, which Ubisoft will be seeing as guests, tomorrow, so we'll see...
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01:28:09 <MDude> Is your presentation on the importance to have arms, legs, and a neck?
01:29:06 <Jafet> I somehow doubt that oren is going out on a limb like that.
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01:49:14 <lambdabot> CYUL 040120Z 15014G20KT 1SM R24R/3500VP6000FT/U R24L/4500VP6000FT/U -SN DRSN VV008 M05/M07 A2970 RMK SN8 PRESFR SLP059
01:49:33 <boily> Taneb: TANELLE! AAAAAAAAAAAH!
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01:57:03 <oren> Mdude: Hahahahaha holy shit dude. Nah, we're presenting the beta of our game
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02:02:40 <MDude> Sounds nice, hope that's going well then.
02:03:10 <MDude> Maybe I should put up what I have for this language up on the wiki as a prelimenary design.
02:28:54 <zzo38> I making Famicom Z-machine; the full picture is 32x30 tiles, but some of recommended overscan amounts suggest 30x26 or 28x24 instead; how much do you think would be enough?
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03:51:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MDude/Sipper]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42093 * MDude * (+3084) Created page with "Sipper is a reversible programming language designed with the idea of reversible logic as a requisite of physically reversible computers that can used to increase energy effic..."
03:51:23 <MDude> I don't know how to get thigns formatted.
03:51:28 <oren> This doesn't look bad, it just looks weird: http://ctrlv.in/511789
03:55:48 <oren> MDude: Uh, how do you want it formatted?
03:57:09 <MDude> Mostly the list of commands made into a list.
03:57:52 <MDude> I'll see how another page does it.
03:58:40 <oren> The first comment wasn't a comment on the article, it was acomment on wearing a tie with non-formal clothes
04:02:10 <MDude> But yeah, that is too much tag entering for this late at night.
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04:18:02 <Sgeo> So, apparently Chrome hilights detected XSS in red in view source
04:21:46 <Sgeo> That's my best guess as to how something managed to get hilighted red
04:21:48 <Sgeo> when I viewed source
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06:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42094&oldid=40998 * Thatguy25252525 * (+361) Added Minsky Machine code
06:38:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42095&oldid=42094 * Thatguy25252525 * (+20)
06:42:31 <elliott> fizzie: are we ever going to get HSTS for esolangs.org? :p
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09:03:06 <Jafet> Just use TLS on port 80
09:11:55 <Taneb> Hmm, I seem to be have been Tanelled just after I went to bed last night
09:18:06 <Taneb> In any case, may you all live in , I'm heading out.
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10:27:21 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> My increasing tendency to wear ties despite not wearing a tie-appropriate shirt is beginning to get attention <-- choosemytie.com is available hth
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10:28:18 <oerjan> and also, i accidentally discovered by triggering bing, was apparently registered some years ago.
10:29:44 <oerjan> (i don't use bing, but it's still the default thing which happens when the address bar doesn't understand a url)
10:31:40 <oren> Hmm? what web browser has bing by default?
10:32:17 <oren> I set firefox to do bing, but that's just me being weird
10:32:27 <oerjan> there might be some other which microsoft has bought into...
10:33:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, you know you can change that or disable it entirely
10:34:30 <oerjan> sorry, but right now i am preoccupied with hearing a weird sound and desperately hoping it's not the neighbors' dog
10:36:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: on my list of things that annoy me, that is actually rather low. mostly because i rarely write things into the address bar these days without expecting autocompletion.
10:36:30 <oren> Weird sounds in my neighbourhood are usually drunken girls screaming
10:36:42 <oerjan> the sound is still there :(
10:36:58 <oerjan> oren: hm not much screaming around here, fortunately
10:37:05 <oren> I live in the centre of a party district
10:37:43 <oren> your neighbourhood is probably nice and quiet
10:38:06 <oerjan> it sounds _almost_ like someone could be washing windows, i hope it's that
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10:39:23 <oren> Maybe it's that scraping sound that inadequately lubricated windshield wipers make
10:40:05 <oerjan> yes that's what it sounds like, but you cannot here outside cars from here like that
10:41:09 <oerjan> i am mainly hoping for window washing because that's not something which naturally keeps going forever.
10:41:49 <oerjan> some sounds are very well isolated here, others mysteriously get through.
10:43:09 <oren> I think there is a psychological aspect to that though. I rarely am bothered anymore by the sound of pumping bass or revving motorcycles...
10:44:46 <oren> So i got surprised when my friend said there was an annoying person revving a motorcycle, and I said what motorcycle?
10:47:10 <oren> Hmm... i wonder if building walls can act as dichroicfilters for sound...
10:51:08 <oren> All it would take is different materials with different speeds of sound, like glass and air...
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11:26:46 <newsham> http://www.pagetable.com/?p=824 <- 8080 sim for 6502.
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11:54:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semi-quantum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42096&oldid=41886 * Mazeman * (+1) /* Input */
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14:44:31 <oerjan> the bots keep running off
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15:01:21 <fizzie> Not answering to ssh either.
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15:11:15 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't have enough ties to justify letting other people choose my tie
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15:22:24 <Taneb> I only have like 4
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15:33:03 <Koen__> your cumputer could decide for you
15:33:29 <Koen__> with a simple flowchart algorithm
15:34:30 <Koen__> "is this a very formal event? yes -> pick the formal tie. is this a fancy event? yes -> pick the fancy tie"
15:36:58 <oerjan> is this a very shoddy event
15:40:45 <lambdabot> git clone git://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot.git
15:41:02 <Koen__> I try to avoid those but I guess you should pick the very shoddy tie if you have one
15:41:50 <oerjan> my brain has some trouble connecting int-e to his real name
15:43:29 <oerjan> if you are implying you have a railroad tie, i demand url
15:43:43 <TieSleep> dammit I'm getting notified by all those ties.
15:44:19 <oerjan> TieSleep: i think you have no one to blame but yourself, really
15:44:37 <oerjan> also, it was probably time to get up anyway
15:48:20 <int-e> oerjan: you can still find it via github, it's just one or two more clicks
15:48:58 <oerjan> on the bright side, i _did_ remember james cook's nickname
15:49:28 <int-e> (There are many ways, but the one I thought of was to look at the members of the lambdabot "organization")
15:50:17 <oerjan> int-e: well the way i got to this state was by reading your lambdabot 5.0 announcement in the haskell-cafe archive and not remembering it was you
15:50:20 <int-e> I *guess* it would be friendlier to have lambdabot give an https URL for cloning.
15:50:47 <oerjan> as in, to me you are more int-e than you're bertram
15:50:57 <int-e> oerjan: I'll admit that it's a bit tricky, since I'm not using my "private" e-mail address on haskell-cafe.
15:54:33 <oerjan> wow :t and :k now work in private message
15:55:07 <oerjan> (that's like the first silly thing i remembered about lambdabot)
15:55:39 <oerjan> otoh i noticed the other day there was some command @@ didn't see
15:56:18 <oerjan> or maybe it also got fixed
15:56:55 <oerjan> i don't remember what it was :/
15:58:07 <oerjan> hm _that_ doesn't work in priv
15:58:25 <oerjan> and that works neither place
15:58:35 <oerjan> so still a bit of inconsistency left
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16:11:35 <int-e> good, we don't want lambdabot to become predictable
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16:12:52 <int-e> Koen__: just a little joke
16:13:33 <Koen__> I was afraid you really didn't know what 2+2 was so I tried to help
16:14:15 <int-e> Oh. That was oerjan. But The Point(tm) there was a different one.
16:15:27 <gamemanj> ...Is it just me, or is that text coloured?
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16:19:40 <oerjan> Koen__: 2+2 = 1 (mod 3) hth
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16:20:21 <Koen__> is mod the same thing as + ?
16:20:42 <gamemanj> mod is the remainder of a division.
16:21:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input ‘=’
16:21:15 <oerjan> a = b (mod m) <=> a-b = k*m for some integer k
16:21:18 <int-e> Koen__: a = b (mod c) is special notation: it means that a - b is divisible by c.
16:21:19 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a1 -> t))
16:21:20 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_11245’
16:21:20 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num ((a -> a -> a) -> a2 -> t),
16:22:13 <int-e> so 4 = 1 (mod 3) but also 1 = 4 (mod 3) or 100 = 7777 (mod 3)
16:22:52 <oerjan> gamemanj: in haskell, ordinary identifiers need `` around them to be used infix.
16:23:23 <oerjan> > (+) 2 2 -- parentheses do the opposite for operator identifiers
16:24:28 <oerjan> > 124 ` mod ` 5 -- just wondering
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17:58:03 <oerjan> fizzie couldn't get ssh contact
17:58:26 <oerjan> (and HackEgo is gone too, being on the same server)
17:58:30 <int-e> I can't access my own $UNNAMEDPROVIDER VM either.
17:58:40 -!- skj3gg has joined.
17:59:33 <int-e> fizzie: still there?
17:59:41 <int-e> fnordbot: still there?
17:59:41 <fnordbot> int-e: here all the time, but that was just how they wanted to be a hell of a lot. " so," said ford, " he was a hell of a lot. " so," said ford, " you reckon, what's the problem? " the universe, you see,", he said to a small lump of green and blue. " who?" " tell us!" " alright," said ford, " he was a hell of a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's
17:59:46 <int-e> tab completion is hard.
18:00:24 <oerjan> well unless $UNNAMEDPROVIDER = cloudatcost, it seems unlikely to be related?
18:00:34 <int-e> oerjan: but it is.
18:00:59 <int-e> (fn*rdbot is on the same host as lambdabot, which is a different provider)
18:02:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: To the finder of this bottle: I'm a fungot trapped in a house which may or may not now have internet but there's no one there to connect me | ZFC is a ChuChu rocket. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:02:53 <oerjan> or maybe it wasn't until tomorrow
18:03:20 <int-e> . o O ( The word "internet" wandered around in his mind in search of something to connect with. )
18:03:49 <oerjan> i shall ascribe this to the general unraveling of the world
18:04:15 <int-e> And a general lack of the letter 'l'.
18:04:49 <int-e> though knowing my luck that's probably a BE/AE thing.
18:05:16 <int-e> My brain wants to type "unravelling".
18:06:01 <oerjan> google says unraveling wins
18:06:04 <int-e> Oh well http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.5694 disagrees with me.
18:06:42 <int-e> oerjan: yes, but only by a factor of 2, which I regard as evidence for the BE/AE theory.
18:07:06 <oerjan> IE tries to automatically add .no to that url for some reason
18:07:16 <Koen__> I want unravelling too. Unraveling sounds like you're destroying maurice ravel's music
18:07:47 * int-e wonders what "ultra-properties" are...
18:07:56 <oerjan> ultra-properties? are they using ultrafilters on the poor rewriting systems
18:08:10 <oerjan> hey are we being redundant again.
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18:08:43 * oerjan gives Koen__ some undead ravioli
18:09:20 <oerjan> unraveling ravioli revenants
18:09:29 <int-e> No, they're just looking at the unraveled CTRS and checking the properties on that. (The last sentence probably won't make any sense.)
18:10:15 <oerjan> 's ok nothing in this channel makes sense to anyone more than 20 years in the past anyway
18:10:27 * int-e skips the remaining 48 pages of the paper.
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18:12:45 <oerjan> you're better than me, i skipped the remaining 48 lines of the abstract
18:13:27 <oerjan> (the line count is obviously wrong but it's ok it'll never be evaluated anyway)
18:14:34 <oerjan> btw am i correct that MPTCs don't guarantee typeclass coherence even if you avoid ghc's technical orphan instance definition
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18:15:20 <oerjan> i think MPTCs aren't needed
18:16:01 <fizzie> For the record, still no SSH.
18:16:22 <int-e> The orphan instances prevent the diamond scenario (class and type defined in A get too instances in B and C that can both be accessed somehow (invisble in the type) from a module D)
18:16:40 <fizzie> int-e: You're running a fungot clone on the same thing as a lambdabot? Nifty.
18:16:40 -!- arjanb has joined.
18:17:00 <fizzie> In other fungot news, my ISP (in London) emailed me yesterday that the Internet is all there now.
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18:17:13 <oerjan> instance SomeClass (MyTC a) vs. instance SomeClass (f MyType) can exist in different modules, neither being technically orphans, and you can get SomeClass (MyTC MyType) resolved differently in two different modules that are both indirectly used from main
18:17:14 <fizzie> Helps a lot, considering. (Hello from sunny California.)
18:18:37 * oerjan inspired by http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2xoq3f/haskell_package_dependencies_why_all_the/
18:18:51 <int-e> fizzie: It seems benign enough. And I don't expect any advanced, persistent attackers. It's running as a separate user which I deemed to be good enough.
18:21:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: To the finder of this bottle: I'm a fungot trapped in a house with Internet but no one there to connect me | ZFC is a ChuChu rocket. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:22:05 <int-e> It is an Edward Kmett package. So ultimately he adds everything that is needed to get smooth interaction with lens without orphan instances...
18:22:30 <oerjan> oh the reddit discussion
18:22:35 * int-e goes read a couple of comments.
18:23:40 <oerjan> my idea of getting a diamond problem without triggering GHC's orphan warning isn't _directly_ based on that, just inspired by the orphan mentions
18:23:52 <oerjan> i should try and test this
18:25:16 <oerjan> grmble i'm not used to making multimodule programs
18:26:50 <int-e> (It's sad that avoiding orphan instances makes modular package design so hard.)
18:27:32 <int-e> because for any datatype and class, you have to somehow define which is more fundamental, and therefore gets to be defined before the other.
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18:29:12 <arjanb> i hope this gets worse so they will finally fix the whole modules and packaging mess
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18:32:41 <fizzie> int-e: If you actually own a VPS at $UNNAMEDPROVIDER, you could check out their web console or whatnot, if they have one.
18:32:54 <fizzie> int-e: I think I've heard of Gregor fixing things by restarting the server there.
18:36:04 <int-e> I probably don't care much since all there is on that VM is a web server with a glorified (haha) "under construction" sign.
18:40:32 <int-e> besides their control panel looks down as well.
18:40:42 <int-e> (so much for not caring)
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18:49:00 <oerjan> int-e: http://lpaste.net/121559 or http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/UnOrphans
18:52:30 <int-e> . o O ( FlexibleInstances: Mostly harmless.
18:53:16 <oerjan> an MPTC would "obviously" work as well
18:54:26 <int-e> FWIW, instance A (f C) makes me feel queasy.
18:55:02 <oerjan> but you've seen worse things involving kinds recently...
18:55:42 <int-e> Sometimes, kind isn't.
18:56:37 <oerjan> i hope the new Typeable inference is on schedule, i haven't seen anything mentioned for a while
18:58:40 <arjanb> it has been quiet for a while with the icfp deadline last weekend, now is a good time to start poking again...
19:00:44 <int-e> Fun: http://sprunge.us/FXCj (Many hundreds of scouts were sent out, but only two returned, reporting that they couldn't find the enemy.)
19:01:39 <Koen__> the other didn't quit and are still looking
19:04:20 <int-e> (also sprunge is working again, yay!)
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22:03:32 <elliott> fizzie: you just moved and you're on holiday already? :p
22:03:37 <elliott> or is this some google thing
22:05:17 <Taneb> I got a headhunting email from Google last week
22:05:28 <Taneb> Not quite sure what to make of it
22:07:23 <int-e> elliott: <fizzie> [...] Though it's just a business trip. Google seems to want all new employees to be dazzled by their "main" campus for a week or two.
22:07:56 <elliott> I thought fizzie already did that, though.
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23:49:24 <zzo38> Why does an executable file compiled with GNU C sometimes get zeroed out (resulting in a "Program too big to fit in memory") error?
00:04:35 <zzo38> No, the file size is correct
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00:15:25 <zzo38> The file size is correct, but the contents of the file are all zero, rather than the correct contents
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01:33:42 <zzo38> Why can't they build computer, so that it has a Forth environment built-in to the BIOS ROM? I have seen one that has a CD player software built-in, and a few others, but none of that is very good?
01:35:04 <ais523> zzo38: modern computers use UEFI rather than BIOS, and the UEFI is user-customizable (although you have to turn secure boot off)
01:35:46 <zzo38> I still don't really like that; it is a PC then it should have a PC BIOS.
01:36:07 <zzo38> But regardless, even if user-customizable then maybe you can't use it without a disk?
01:36:20 <zzo38> Put a Forth built-in so that you can use it even without a disk.
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01:37:43 <ais523> right, the UEFI is stored on a disk partition
01:39:29 <zzo38> Yes, that's why you need a PC BIOS with Forth interpreter
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01:41:24 <zzo38> You could still have UEFI but you can start BIOS at first so that it can work without a disk.
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02:00:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Once upon a time they *did* make such computers.
02:00:29 <pikhq> For instance, old school macs.
02:08:23 <zzo38> Some old computer also had BASIC built-in to the BIOS ROM
02:09:42 <zzo38> It may be good to put Forth though
02:10:01 <zzo38> But I think they ought to do with the new computer too!
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03:01:31 <zzo38> What would you think?
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03:34:06 <quintopia> i would think it's time to play games
03:37:49 <zzo38> What game do you want? Chess game? Pokemon card game? Dungeons&Dragons game?
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04:37:50 <newsham> why doesnt rpi have BASIC in its rom?
04:38:18 <zzo38> What does it have in its ROM?
04:41:44 <Sgeo> asdjfjasdfhlakjfhlakjsfkldfkldhlaksjdfhklasjdhfjakdfasdf
04:41:50 <Sgeo> I am beginning to hate JanusVR
04:44:24 <zzo38> newsham: Do you even know these answer?
04:48:57 <zzo38> Let's see if I fixed this puzzle yet http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2
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05:06:21 <pikhq> zzo38: It has some code to load a firmware blob from the SD card.
05:06:24 <pikhq> That's... about it.
05:09:36 <zzo38> Putting a Forth interpreter into the ROM too would make it to work even if you do not have a SD card, or if the data got deleted, or whatever
05:10:05 <zzo38> Probably it would also make it faster, because Linux is slow
05:10:42 <pikhq> It'd certainly be nice to have a guaranteed Forth environment, sure.
05:15:39 <zzo38> As far as I am concerned they ought to do that to other computers too, whether it is PC, or games console, or DVD player, or whatever, as long as it is possible to put keyboard
05:16:58 <pikhq> Yep. It's convenient having a guaranteed bootable environment in early ROM.
06:12:13 <Sgeo> Apparently it's publically ok to talk about security holes in JanusVR
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00:04:26 <tswett> What's the correct Japanese rendering of the word "understand"? Is it "ondasutando"?
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00:13:35 <zzo38> Is it possible to use GDB to debug a DLL file? If so, how?
00:15:41 <pikhq> tswett: "Andasutaando"
00:17:28 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured it out how
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05:55:25 <mitchs> i wanted to use burlesque some more, but mroman seems to have purposefully deleted the home page and github, which is annoying
05:56:04 <zzo38> mitchs: See if someone has another copy?
05:56:56 <mitchs> hmm AndoDaan might have a copy
05:57:42 <mitchs> the online documentation had a nice table with all commands, it seems less likely that people would save that as a precaution against the website going down
05:58:08 <zzo38> There was some dwarf that won't bathe and is really smell bad, but they said they need to come anyways; nevertheless we don't know where they are right now. Characters sometimes get added and sometimes removed, possibly temporarily but sometimes it seems like permanently
05:58:34 <zzo38> mitchs: Too bad, then, I suppose, but you can still check
06:01:22 <zzo38> Now you can make the copy.
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09:28:42 <boily> at least the HackEgo is alive. when will its Prince in Fungot Armor come?
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09:52:06 <fnordbot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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09:58:54 <fnordbot> boily: by a president elected by that? the dentrassis. away in a room with soft walls. ford ignored the scenes that came and then carried on. " mice? " ford," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he said to a small lump of green and blue. a towel
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12:31:51 <b_jonas> esolangers, my ski trip is starting today, I won't be reading the internets for a week, till 2015-03-15. goodbye
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15:57:48 <oerjan> mroman: mitchs was missing the burlesque docs
16:00:59 <mroman> I have no copy anymore.
16:01:17 <mitchs> did you feel like it was holding you back in life or something
16:01:47 <oerjan> i also suspected that, it was a pretty "rage quit" like day
16:01:54 <mroman> Doing useless stuff all the time is pretty much all I can do.
16:02:03 <mitchs> i tracked down a copy of the list of commands, which is nice, but i'm hoping AndoDaan has a copy of the source
16:03:20 <mitchs> well we want to be supportive i suppose
16:03:54 <mitchs> it seems to make sense that you are worth more than anything you produce
16:04:05 <mitchs> still, a lot of people like burlesque
16:04:05 <oerjan> `run rm wisdom/mad #this thing has been too damn true lately
16:04:17 <mitchs> leonid also wrote a compliment about it
16:04:28 <mitchs> and ofc there is teebee and clock and Hendrik who like to use it
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16:59:23 <mroman> mroman.ch also points to another hoster now.
16:59:37 <mroman> I've switched to a 100MB static webspace hoster
17:03:34 <mroman> Although it does have php and perl
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17:44:31 <oren> does data being immutable eliminate race conditions, or is there something obvious i'm missing?
17:46:34 <oren> Well, a race condition happens when the order of data access matters. but with immutable data structures, the order can't matter. but is there an analogous phenomemnon?
17:48:47 <zzo38> Even ROM data can be bankswitched though?
17:49:25 <ais523> oren: the only race conditions you can have with immutable data are things like exception vs. exception race conditoins
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18:10:31 <mroman> let x = ...; forkIO $ doStuff (x+1); forkIO $ doStuff (x+2);
18:10:50 <mroman> oren: does that qualify as a race condition?
18:11:41 <ais523> mroman: I don't think that is a race condition unless doStuff contains IO actions, in which case, it's touching something mutable (the I/O state)
18:13:10 <mroman> what happens if you fork inside StateT IO a?
18:13:23 <mroman> and do x <- get; put (succ x);?
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18:16:12 <mroman> the fork isn't StateT anymore
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19:14:41 <zzo38> mroman: Does the another hoster have SQLite? That is one way to have a database, without needing to set up a database server. However, SQLite isn't working as well for multiple use at once (but it is still possible to do).
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19:32:02 <mroman> I only host static stuff anyway
19:32:11 <mroman> and if I need a database I might use firebase or something
19:32:27 <mroman> even though firebase is public
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19:38:43 <mroman> zzo38: I think in order to connect to it you need to embed the key in your javascript
19:38:49 <mroman> that's pretty much public
19:39:11 <zzo38> If it is client-side JavaScript, then yes
19:39:42 <zzo38> Although can't you use server-side? You said it has PHP and Perl at least
19:41:33 <mroman> uthenticates a Firebase client using email / password credentials. The session will live until its configured expiration time in the Login & Auth tab of your Firebase Dashboard, or when you explicitly end the session by calling unauth().
19:41:43 <mroman> lookls like firebase supports accounts as well
19:42:02 <zzo38> Yes, I looked at the documentation and it does looks like you can configure security in various ways
19:42:38 <mroman> I'm going full javasrcipt, never go full javascript.
19:43:02 <mroman> and I have to excuse myself
19:43:07 <mroman> the zopclon is kicking in
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19:49:16 <mroman> I'ev sude it to write cahst some months ago
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19:56:26 <zzo38> Is there a URI format for UUIDs?
19:56:40 <ais523> zzo38: I think so, but I don't know what it is
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20:29:49 <zzo38> Is there the way to access Firebase services by SQLite?
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20:41:53 <zzo38> Do you know anything about RDF?
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22:35:26 <boily> doing well. I'm embracing the housewife side of my person, gently cleaning my apartment with care, love, and le sentiment du devoir accompli.
22:35:36 <boily> how's night on your end?
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22:52:29 <HackEgo> perrier: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:52:55 <oerjan> who are you and what did you do to the real HackEgo
22:53:09 <boily> ... this is disturbing.
22:53:26 <boily> Gregor: are you an alien in disguise, wont to enslave the Human Race?
22:54:25 <oerjan> can't you tell he's from the Planet of Hats
23:00:44 <ais523> boily: `test doesn't produce output normally, though
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23:12:50 <zzo38> I don't really like how "language tagged strings" works in RDF, so instead what I am doing in my implementation is that it places the language tag followed by a ASCII "start of text" character prefixed to the lexical form. This does not cause a problem because a language tag only exists anyways if and only if the datatype is <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#langString>.
23:13:15 <quintopia> i have your girl scout cookies boxed and ready to go. will ship on monday.
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01:17:55 <oren> I swear- antivirus software is actually the cause of viruses.
01:18:20 <fizzie> There was a girl scout cookie selling stand at the BART/Caltrain station in Millbrae.
01:18:53 <zzo38> oren: It is a possibility anyways I think
01:19:55 <oren> See my windows installation was totally fine, up until... I installed the newest flash player-- which came with McAfee for some reason.
01:20:25 <zzo38> I don't have Flash installed, so I don't have this problems
01:20:28 <oren> Suddenly, my windows has that bullshit Astromenda installed!
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01:22:52 <oren> My response to thatsort of thing is to boot into linux and DELETE EVERYTHING that isn't system or created by me
01:23:14 <oren> Which seems to have worked
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02:36:42 <zzo38> I am writing a Turtle parser now
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02:59:35 <zzo38> For parsing Turtle RDF documents
02:59:47 <zzo38> I also made the output into N-Triples format
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03:32:31 <Sketra> What's the hooker per bottle ratio
03:32:40 <Sketra> If you were to liquify them
03:33:12 <ais523> actually I'm kind-of surprised there's a right chat for that
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03:34:12 <Sketra> Me and my friends are discussing how many human bodies you can fit in a basement and we went from dismembering to boxing to liquifying
03:34:28 <Sketra> I'm sorry I just I get dragged into stuff ais
03:34:47 <ais523> yeah, still definitely the wrong chat
03:36:13 <zzo38> I nevertheless still don't know the answer of such questions
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05:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainClub]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42099&oldid=33850 * Zzo38 * (-109) Broken link removed
05:01:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainClub]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42100&oldid=42099 * Zzo38 * (-104) Broken link removed
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05:27:01 <oren> why is there a show called ∀ Gundam but no ∃ Gundam
05:28:18 <zzo38> Maybe they didn't make up that one yet
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05:56:11 <zzo38> The documentation for Turtle says in section 2.7 that a blankNodePropertyList is allowed as a subject, but section 6.5 says it isn't allowed as a subject; it can only be used as an object.
05:57:56 <zzo38> You have to call them on the telephone and tell them to fix the document please.
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17:15:12 <mroman> My chess elo sank below 1000 :(
17:15:59 <mroman> btw there *should* be a copy of Burlesque on my workplace computer
17:17:02 <mroman> I had it installed on it so I'm pretty certain that the source is still on there
17:17:21 <mroman> I don't know how recent though.
17:20:41 <mroman> If it's still on there I can upload a zip to my static hoster of it
17:20:54 <mroman> and somebody can put it into the esoteric file archive or whatever
17:21:32 <mroman> although the documentation will be out of date since all the errors in it people reported I just fixed on the live one
17:21:39 <mroman> all those fixes are gone
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19:07:20 <FireFly> What happened with the live version?
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19:35:24 <zzo38> Your chess elo sank below 1000 in what organization of keeping track of these though?
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20:13:04 <tswett> Have you ever wanted to know the simplest rational approximations to all the multiples of 1/100 from 0 to 1/2?
20:13:10 <tswett> Now you can find out! http://pastie.org/10008144
20:13:27 <int-e> Oh Freenode has been quite stable the last few days.
20:14:07 <int-e> (I'm slightly surprised that fn*rdbot is still around. It has no clue about reconnecting.)
20:18:01 <ais523> tswett: is that basically taking x/100 and reducing to lowest terms?
20:18:32 <tswett> ais523: no. The simplest rational number that rounds to 0.01 is 1/67, not 1/100.
20:18:54 <ais523> oh I see, it's about rounding
20:19:05 <ais523> (because 1/66 rounds to 0.02, presumably
20:19:33 <boily> fnordbot: hello there!
20:19:33 <fnordbot> boily: got to go. " i don't want to go to work at," and he turned. " but who the man with the five heads all the tests, learning to distinguish between him pretending to be an out a wild whoop in major thirds, threw ford prefect, " it's dark," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. ford was running after him very fast? " very pret
20:20:03 <tswett> I guess I should have "simplest rational numbers that round to all two-digit decimals from 0.00 to 0.50".
20:20:38 <ais523> where simplest = smallest denominator, I take it?
20:20:42 <tswett> Prepend /"/said "/ to that and run it as a /// program.
20:20:51 <ais523> is fnordbot on the same codebase as fungot, by any chance?
20:20:52 <fnordbot> ais523: would work, a mere nothingth of a second, and then his mind to have good ideas with, it must be said, some success. " the babel fish," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. " a computer whose merest operational parameters i am not worthy to calculate the trajectory of every single dust particle of the ship. " it hardly ma
20:21:10 <tswett> A mere nothingth? A nothingth is quite a lot.
20:21:17 <ais523> also, at least one of the inputs to that style is the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy
20:21:33 <tswett> From now on, instead of saying "four", I'm going to say "one quarterth".
20:22:04 <boily> does that means a nothingth is infinite?
20:22:19 <int-e> this will be good one quarterth one awful pun.
20:29:55 <tswett> Uh oh, the simplest rational number rounding to 0.19 is 31/6.
20:30:05 <tswett> This is a terrible mathematical inconsistency.
20:32:08 <int-e> I hope you mean 6/31...
20:34:27 <ais523> looks like tswett's correction is a better one
20:35:28 <int-e> right. it's not inconsistent, but when truncating a continued fraction decomposition, you also have to consider replacing the last number by a smaller natural number.
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20:38:24 <tswett> > let approx t = do denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/demon) * 100 == t); return (num, demon) in do target <- [0..50]; let (x,y) = head (approx target); show x ++ "/" + show y ++ "; "
20:38:25 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
20:38:55 <int-e> Err, whatever, 0.19 = 1/(5+1/(3+1/(1+1/4))); 3/16 = 1/(5+1/3), so it is actually a proper truncation. The theory is a bit more complicated than that anyway, because truncating is not always the right thing to do; I think that sometimes one has to increase the last term by one.
20:39:46 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Best_rational_approximations - decrease it by one.
20:39:51 <zzo38> tswett: You didn't define "demon", it look like?
20:39:52 <Koen_> possible incorrect inline indentation!!
20:40:13 <tswett> zzo38: but surely that wouldn't cause a parse error.
20:40:13 <oren> I think it suppose to bedenom
20:40:14 <tswett> > let approx t = do {denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/denom) * 100 == t); return (num, demon)} in do {target <- [0..50]; let (x,y) = head (approx target); show x ++ "/" + show y ++ "; "}
20:40:16 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:207: parse error on input ‘}’
20:40:31 <tswett> > let approx t = do denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/denom) * 100 == t); return (num, demon) in do target <- [0..50]; let (x,y) = head (approx target); show x ++ "/" + show y ++ "; "
20:40:32 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
20:40:36 <zzo38> Yes that probably isn't the parse error
20:40:46 <zzo38> But, you canuse explicit {;} and then try again too
20:40:53 <oren> The nuremator and demoninator
20:41:50 <oren> burninating the countryside, burninating the peasants
20:42:49 <int-e> tswett: Oh. I was thinking about how to get 1/8 from 0.13 = 1/(7+1/(1+1/(2+1/4))), but of course that's 1/(7 + 1/1).
20:43:23 <oren> sore wa.... SEKAI!
20:43:25 <zzo38> Add the {} around the let block too
20:44:16 <int-e> (1/8 is perhaps wrong, round to even makes it 0.12. 2/15 is the next candidate)
20:44:23 <tswett> > let {approx t = do {denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/demon) * 100 == t); return (num, demon)}} in do {target <- [0..50]; let (x,y) = head (approx target); show x ++ "/" + show y ++ "; "}
20:44:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:209: parse error on input ‘}’
20:44:26 <Koen_> int-e: did you know 1/89 = 0.011235... = sum_{n=0..} [ fib(n) * 10^(-2-n) ]?
20:44:31 <oren> round to even is bullshit though
20:44:49 <tswett> let blocks don't have braces, do they?
20:45:00 <tswett> Like, I thought they weren't even permitted.
20:45:07 <boily> oren: どうして「世界」と言うの？
20:45:42 <zzo38> Well, there is also a "inner let" in the do-block, maybe something is wrong wht that
20:46:55 <quintopia> ais523: as the number of states and/or symbols goes to infinity, would you expect the probability that a randomly chosen TM is universal to go to one, zero, or some other constant?
20:47:12 <tswett> > do let x = 3; return 3
20:47:13 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
20:47:31 <Koen_> quintopia: 0, definitely
20:47:32 <ais523> I'd expect it either to go to 1, or some constant based on e
20:47:44 <ais523> it may be different for states going to infinity or symbols going to infinity
20:47:54 <tswett> > let approx t = do denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/denom) * 100 == t); return (num, demon) in do target <- [0..50]; (x,y) <- return (head (approx target)); show x ++ "/" + show y ++ "; "
20:47:57 <int-e> Koen_: no, but it doesn't surprise me too much. I mean, it's just x^3/(1-x-x^2) with x=1/10... Oh you must have fib(0)=1, who does that?
20:48:02 <tswett> > let approx t = do denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/denom) * 100 == t); return (num, denom) in do target <- [0..50]; (x,y) <- return (head (approx target)); show x ++ "/" + show y ++ "; "
20:48:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
20:48:06 <Koen_> quintopia: you can actually prove that the probability that a string of symbols follows a simple 'logic' is very very very low
20:48:07 <tswett> My inner demons are trying to escape.
20:48:10 <ais523> basically because in order to prove a language with a lot of commands TC, you're normally trying to find a TC subset
20:48:37 <tswett> lambdabot: uh, I didn't *use* the + operator.
20:48:40 <ais523> but it's unclear how likely a randomly generated TM is to have well-behaved subsets (that you can keep within the subset)
20:48:43 <quintopia> but i can't process the decrease rate of the probability of a submachine being "self-contained"
20:48:44 <ais523> this is why I think e is likely relevant
20:48:49 <int-e> tswett: yes you did
20:48:51 <ais523> quintopia: neither can I
20:48:52 <Koen_> int-e: yeah hum I usually have fib(0) = 0, I didn't really think
20:48:56 <ais523> that's why I'm not sure what the answer is
20:49:10 <tswett> > let approx t = do denom <- [1..100]; num <- [0..denom]; guard (round (num/denom) * 100 == t); return (num, denom) in do target <- [0..50]; (x,y) <- return (head (approx target)); show x ++ "/" ++ show y ++ "; "
20:49:11 <lambdabot> "0.0/1.0; *Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
20:49:58 <int-e> Koen_: (the expression I gave was for fib(0)=1, but it's equal to 1/890)
20:50:08 <quintopia> ais523: i feel like the probability decrease should be roughly on par with the increase in number of submachines though. I lean towards "other constant"
20:50:22 <int-e> Koen_: Uhm. for fib(0)=0.
20:50:23 <tswett> > [ let (x,y) = head . filter (\(x,y) -> round (100*x/y) == n) $ rats in show x ++ "/" ++ show y | n <- [0..50] ]
20:50:40 <ais523> I guess a simpler question is "what probability is it that there's a straight simulation of any given TM in a randomly chosen TM?"
20:50:56 <tswett> > let rats = [ (x,y) | y <- [1..100], x <- [0..y] ] in [ let (x,y) = head . filter (\(x,y) -> round (100*x/y) == n) $ rats in show x ++ "/" ++ show y | n <- [0..50] ]
20:50:57 <lambdabot> ["0.0/1.0","1.0/67.0","1.0/40.0","1.0/29.0","1.0/23.0","1.0/19.0","1.0/16.0"...
20:51:36 <quintopia> ais523: not simple enough for me o_0
20:51:42 <int-e> Koen_: and in any case the real point was that this is fairly easy to verify with generating function theory. And the same theory also allows one to construct such "surprising" identities.
20:51:46 <ais523> yep, it's still a nontrivial question
20:51:46 <Koen_> int-e: I discovered that when I was 13 and I was quite puzzled. I was even more puzzled when I realized rational numbers have a periodic decimal development
20:51:49 <ais523> just easier than the other one
20:52:48 <int-e> Koen_: Oh I can imagine that. Adding lots of random-looking-numbers, why would the result ever be periodic...
20:54:21 <oren> Are the temporaries you get in long division randomism?
20:55:00 <int-e> Koen_: and it probably becomes *more* mysterious if you know the (((1+sqrt(5))/2)^n - ((1-sqrt(5))/2)^n) / sqrt(5) formula :)
20:55:12 <int-e> (if I got that correct)
20:55:32 <int-e> (but I believe I did)
20:55:42 <Koen_> hmmmmmmmm that sounds familiar but I haven't seen that in six years
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21:00:09 <int-e> Koen_: (The nice thing about starting with fib(0) = 0 is that then fib(n) divides fib(m) if (and only if) n divides m.
21:01:13 <Koen_> fib(0) = 0, fib(1) = 1, fib(2) = 1, fib(2) divides fib(1), 2 does not divide 1
21:01:57 <Koen_> I'm guessing your proof assumes n < m though
21:02:17 <int-e> right. sorry, no "only if" then.
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21:03:18 <int-e> (2 does not divide 3 either)
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21:18:08 <int-e> It should work out for n != 2 though. The real identity I was after was gcd(fib(n),fib(m)) = fib(gcd(n,m)), and that is strong enough to get the "only if" direction except for n = +/-2.
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22:27:20 <nortti> http://www.vaxman.de/publications/5_perl.pdf
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22:42:51 <oerjan> <int-e> Koen_: and it probably becomes *more* mysterious if you know the (((1+sqrt(5))/2)^n - ((1-sqrt(5))/2)^n) / sqrt(5) formula :) <-- hm? that immediately gives you that the other one is also the sum of geometric series, so you can calculate it...
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22:46:28 <oerjan> now, does this work in any base...
22:47:47 <oerjan> (1/(1-((1+sqrt(5))/2b)) - 1/(1-((1-sqrt(5))/2b))) / sqrt(5)
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22:48:41 <oerjan> ok it may not be immediately obvious why that should be a rational :/
22:49:23 <oerjan> oh hm obviously 89 = 100 - 10 - 1
22:50:13 <oerjan> fine, the sqrt(5) formula probably doesn't help.
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22:54:29 <boily> at least 58 is 8 + (3 - 1 / 2) * 20...
23:00:41 <Sketra> > 8 + ( 3 - 1 / 3) * 20
23:01:34 <Sketra> > 8 + ( 3 - 1 / 2) * 20
23:02:33 <oerjan> boily: are you trying to understand danish numerals that's the only thing relevant that pops into my mind here
23:03:22 <boily> oerjan: me? absolutely not. what would make you think that? and no, I'm not hiding any mapoles behind my back, no sir.
23:04:18 <Sketra> And why is oerjan hiding from it
23:04:53 <oerjan> boily: because in danish, 58 = otte og halvtreds, which basically means that formula
23:05:27 <boily> oerjan: that's the source of the 58 decomposition I wrote indeed :P
23:05:37 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
23:05:44 <boily> Sketra: this is a mapole ↑
23:06:10 <Sketra> are danish numbers just alphabetic and pronounced
23:06:40 <oerjan> Sketra: no, they also use ordinary digits hth
23:07:14 <oerjan> Sketra: i'm afraid danish is only fun when you can hear it pronounced, which doesn't work too well over irc
23:08:12 <boily> no. ain't gonna choke on that sentence anymore.
23:08:12 <oerjan> ooh youtube to the rescue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQkvqJJvR9U
23:09:38 <boily> ah! it's much better with an audio clip.
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23:11:20 <FireFly> Here's a good documentary on the danish language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
23:11:30 <oerjan> why the fuck has youtube started insisting on playing everything as a video series :(
23:12:03 <boily> [œ] is a nice sound too.
23:12:09 <oerjan> oops accidentally expanded acronym
23:12:27 <boily> because it wasn't hth hth.
23:12:49 <boily> Sketra: so, what are your approximate geographic coördinates, and body weigh?
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23:16:37 <Sketra> Washington state, Tacoma, WA; South puget sound AVE house number unknown: Weight 123 Lbs.
23:18:09 <boily> a precise and timely answer??? what has this chännel come to... oh the fungotity...
23:19:00 <FireFly> About that, what is the current midpoint when projected to earth?
23:19:03 <zzo38> Shouldn't you indicate using degrees of longitude/latitude? Possibly you might also want the amount of elevation
23:19:31 <oerjan> FireFly: but which projection
23:19:45 <boily> until we get a guy living in Peru, I don't think elevation is that important.
23:20:13 <Sketra> 6700 Meters below the earths crust
23:20:24 <oerjan> we _have_ had people in south africa.
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23:20:36 <FireFly> You could derive the elevation from the coordinates, though
23:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> even then you can get the information from surface elevation at a given point
23:20:42 <oerjan> oh wait that elevation
23:20:44 <zzo38> I thought you were trying to calculate the center of gravity or something like that, in such case you do require elevation too
23:21:04 <zzo38> And the elevation from coordinates might not be good enough since it might be a tower
23:21:08 <FireFly> Or if you want to take the y-position of people living in skyscrapers into account
23:21:26 <oren> 田村さああん～！ やおいって何？
23:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> realistically i'd guess the cog is somewhere under the north atlantic
23:21:47 <zzo38> You don't need the elevation if you are trying to plot a horoscope, but then you don't need your weight either, and anyways that doesn't seem what you try to make
23:22:24 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm still waiting for a properly relativistic horoscope system
23:22:32 <FireFly> boily: do you have the list of approximate coördinates and body weight somewhere?
23:22:42 <Sketra> window had a cat named Peru who watched the elevation of earth grow steadily sideways?!?!!? We like water melons and eat grains of universes
23:23:05 <oerjan> or at least properly non-earth-centric
23:23:31 <zzo38> oerjan: You already can use the sun as center of measurement if you want to; it doesn't have to be Earth at the center
23:23:40 <oerjan> i wonder what kind of mess the astrologers will make once we do start colonizing other planets
23:23:50 <boily> FireFly: let me upload that...
23:23:58 <zzo38> However, no software I have seen can calculate houses when the center of meausurement isn't the Earth.
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23:24:48 <zzo38> Nevertheless, if you are able to define a zero longitude for the planet or other object, you should be allowed to calculate houses too.
23:25:42 <oerjan> zzo38: now make it work for people born in spaceships
23:25:44 <boily> FireFly: http://lpaste.net/567927726028095488
23:26:25 <Sketra> http://nuttygod.tumblr.com/post/112856765400/hanatakayao-22
23:26:38 <Sketra> How do you spell her name again
23:26:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Using a spaceship as the center of measurement will be more difficult; there doesn't seem to be any way to reasonably do that.
23:27:00 <boily> FireFly: pas de trouble!
23:27:42 <zzo38> I don't see what the ecliptic will be in such a case, for one thing.
23:27:48 <oerjan> zzo38: my idea is that you "really" have a house-like system for each planet, not just the one you're on, it's just that it's irrelevant when the distance to it is huge
23:27:49 <oren> 43.655 N 79.420 W
23:28:42 <oren> That's about where I live
23:30:17 <Sketra> now I can siphon your internet
23:30:19 <zzo38> oerjan: I'm not quite sure exactly how you mean?
23:30:31 <boily> Sketra: just you try, punk.
23:31:42 <oerjan> boily: i'm pretty sure the nick's spelled Lymia btw
23:32:08 <boily> oh. hm. eh. eeeergh...
23:33:13 <Lymia> Computer programs don't have weights. :o
23:34:29 <oerjan> boily: i also have reason to believe that Sketra and Lilax are very very close hth
23:34:42 <zzo38> The physical media to store the computer programs can have weights
23:35:09 <oerjan> as in, probably sharing a body
23:36:22 <Sketra> Excuse me oerjan but I'm much more structured than Lilax although you aren't wrong about the body I'm just more neat and well organised rather than lilax where as he likes to fuck with everything and annoy oerjan
23:36:55 <oerjan> i very carefully avoided saying anything about mind hth
23:37:12 <oren> おえりゃん：ええええええ～～～
23:37:32 <Sketra> But implications are always there
23:37:41 <FireFly> oren: wouldn't using katakana for the first part make more sense?
23:38:14 <Jafet> Islam seems to have worked something out http://archive.wired.com/science/space/news/2007/09/mecca_in_orbit
23:38:52 <Sketra> I forgot how to order pizza
23:39:49 <oerjan> well you take the slices and then you put the smallest one on the left and the biggest one on the right
23:40:20 <oren> ｢ｵｴﾘｬﾝ｣と書いていい？
23:40:27 <boily> oren: 僕は「oerjan」の発音が/œrjæn/でしょう？
23:40:42 <oerjan> shall i really have to open the logs in google translate again.
23:41:01 <boily> oerjan: we were surmising about the most probable way your name's pronounced.
23:41:42 <boily> oren: だから、「エリャン」っていい？たぶん？
23:41:56 <oerjan> argh GT refuses to open tunes.org
23:41:59 <pikhq> "eryan" da to omou, ne
23:43:10 <pikhq> demo sa, "eriyan" mo "uryan" mo "oeryan" mo kanousei ga aru.
23:43:34 <oerjan> boily: i seem to be unable to follow the discussion without jumping through more hoops than i have patience for.
23:44:10 <FireFly> They mainly seem to be about how to express ø using japanese syllables
23:44:11 <oren> boily: he saidd they're all possibilities
23:44:14 <boily> comment ça, ウ? ça fait pas de sens des affaires de même là là!
23:44:28 <boily> (just to make oerjan jump through an additional loop :P)
23:44:30 <pikhq> A, soshite "ixeruhaan". ne?
23:47:10 <oerjan> btw it's probably /œɾjan/
23:47:33 <oerjan> *btw it's probably /œɾjɑn/
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23:49:49 <oren> デンマーク語はどんなＲがある？
23:51:36 <boily> oren: フランス語の「r」音は同じですhth
23:52:42 <Sketra> None pizza with left beef
23:53:11 <boily> Either Beef (Maybe Pizza).
23:54:16 <oerjan> btw i'm not danish hth
23:54:31 <oerjan> (i certainly roll my r's)
23:54:47 <boily> my rs don't roll at all :(
23:55:17 <oerjan> but neither english not french r is correct for my dialect
23:57:01 <Sketra> brb I'm choking on something
23:57:07 <boily> nope. whatever I do, it still sounds like at most /œʀjɑn/.
23:57:16 <oren> I can do a W-like r, a flapped r or a rolling spanish r
23:58:01 <FireFly> I can't pronounce a rolling r either :\
23:58:38 <oren> In anime tough guys roll their rs like "horrrrra, kono yarrrrrooo!"
23:58:41 <Sketra> I can't roll my r's eirher
23:59:20 <Sketra> When I try it comes out as a low growl
23:59:28 <pikhq> Yeah. The typical Japanese "r" is a tapped "r", and it's a quick step from there to rolling it.
00:01:11 <oerjan> FireFly: hm i thought most swedes could do a rolled/flapped r, is your dialect from Skåne?
00:01:26 <oren> I call the english r a w-like r, because that's the closest other sound, but i dunno what it's called officially
00:01:54 <boily> oren: it's an alveolar approximant, [ɹ].
00:02:13 <Sketra> How do you roll your r's
00:02:25 <Sketra> like all my friends can do it
00:02:37 <Sketra> And I could at one point but like idk
00:02:40 <oren> You roll an r by blowing air out and your tongue sort of flaps in the wind
00:03:30 <FireFly> oerjan: yeah, I was born in Lund.
00:03:37 <Sketra> omfg I cannot even do this oren my tongue just clenches upwards
00:04:33 <Sketra> iz it cuz I have a breathing problem
00:04:37 <olsner> FireFly: oh, you really can't do the normal r?
00:05:15 <FireFly> I speak some kind of mashup between dialects.. or I think it's mostly similar to standard swedish save for some funny things like having a weird r
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00:06:23 <Sketra> use vacroo for an example
00:06:29 <olsner> obvious, I guess, that you wouldn't use that sound and never learn it naturally, but it still feels odd
00:08:22 <Sketra> small sound clip recorder website
00:08:26 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill
00:14:12 <boily> installing audacity so I can record my voice...
00:17:02 <FireFly> I think I might pronounce r as [ʁ]
00:18:13 <FireFly> No, that doesn't seem right either
00:19:46 <boily> my feeble attempt at rolling: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3o4ik2bzoqt9dbf/roll.ogg?dl=0
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00:23:21 <HackEgo> trn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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00:26:11 <oerjan> pretty sure i've seen em before
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00:58:56 <zzo38> I have made up a way to represent a RDF term in SQL as a pair of columns. If the first is null then the term is a IRI. If the second is null then the term is a blank node. If neither term is null then the term is a literal. If it is a language-tagged string, the lexical form is prefixed by the language-tag and an ASCII "start of text" control code.
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02:05:23 <oren> Why do they tell us to buy textbooks that are available online through the university library?
02:06:46 <zzo38> Presumably in case you want to buy the book
02:07:06 <oren> But if it is online, why would i want to?
02:08:30 <zzo38> In case you like to have a book
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02:20:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integral]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42101&oldid=42069 * Oerjan * (+41) bold, cat
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03:56:14 <oren> Stop deprecating the stuff I use!
03:59:06 <Tetrapyloctomy> Said he what when the where said who to the him is the there when the them ate the him?
03:59:29 <zzo38> oren: What stuff is that?
04:21:45 <Jafet> fnordbot: what is that that is what that is is that what that is that is that is that is what that is
04:21:46 <fnordbot> Jafet: all. " i think you ought to be telling us?" ford looked at a piece. within a few short vog years every last vogon had migrated to the megabrantis cluster, the political economy. deep in the heart of a dark screen, just under five years, but you will when i was a kid you just saved a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched," shouted ford. " i don't want to go to work at," and he turned. " but who the man
04:22:30 <oren> zzo38: in this case, \usepackage{fullpage}
04:26:54 <Tetrapyloctomy> that is what does what when the what that is that the what is the what what that did the it there it the did what it did who where what he did that when
04:30:29 <oren> Interesting. This page contains about 80% of the anime that I like: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/SweetDreamsFuel
04:33:20 <zzo38> You can look at All The Tropes wiki instead of that one, see if it contains it too
05:47:09 <mroman> FireFly: I deleted it.
05:47:18 <mroman> and moved to another hoster
05:47:35 <mroman> then I deleted the source on github and my laptop
05:51:37 <zzo38> Did you know that? I wrote a library to read Turtle RDF syntax, which might be the only one that is usable with SQL, and it is smaller than Serd.
05:53:38 <zzo38> mroman: It is short for "Resource Description Framework" and you can see in Wikipedia
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06:35:29 <zzo38> mroman: What about chess.com?
06:36:27 <mroman> who asked about the ELO?
06:36:51 <zzo38> O, so that's what you are answering, now I understand
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07:15:40 <mroman> instance Fractional Integer where a / b = a `div` b
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09:42:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42102&oldid=42085 * 188.61.138.155 * (-67) /* Implementation */
09:43:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42103&oldid=42102 * 188.61.138.155 * (-563) /* Implementation */ actually why keep deadlinks?
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12:36:56 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/Burlesque.tar.gz [VALID FOR 24h]
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13:30:05 <mroman> http://codepad.org/RwFytt7I is the source code of the IRC bot.
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13:50:35 <boily> mrhelloman. hellørjan.
14:04:34 <oerjan> <mroman> instance Fractional Integer where a / b = a `div` b <-- WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT
14:08:53 <boily> mroman wrote that? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
14:09:49 <mroman> oerjan: doWithBinOp binOp a b :: Num a => a -> a -> a
14:10:18 <mroman> would fail on doWithBinOp (/) (9 :: Integer) (8 :: Integer)
14:11:12 <mroman> let's just say it's VERY INCONVENIENT that all arithmetic operators are the same for Double,Int
14:11:35 <mroman> where some people decided that Integer division shouldn't even have an operator
14:12:16 <oerjan> yes, they decided that integer division and floating division are too different to be considered the same operator.
14:12:36 <oerjan> AND THEY WERE RIGHT HTH
14:13:45 <mroman> Then you could as well introduce `add` `sub` `mul`
14:14:01 <oerjan> no, because integers and reals are both rings
14:14:27 <mroman> Like any programmer not having a group/category theory gives a rat's ass about that
14:14:59 * oerjan backs away from mroman and hopes it's not too infectious
14:15:30 <mroman> For this interpreter I had this neat M.Map String (Num a => a -> a -> a)
14:16:01 <mroman> and then just could lookup + * / - in that map and call the function no matter if I had Double or Integers in front of me
14:16:06 <mroman> doesn't work on integers
14:16:13 <boily> rats are a good source of vitamin C.
14:16:19 <mroman> so I'd had to add a special case for /
14:16:20 <oerjan> btw you _still_ don't get that type because not all Nums have _either_ (/) or div
14:16:27 <mroman> and that pissed me off so I just made that instance
14:17:07 <mroman> programmer experience > theory > ideology > purism
14:18:07 <mroman> there should be an operator for (\x y -> x ++ [y]) in prelude
14:18:12 <mroman> because writing x ++ [y] sucks
14:18:19 <oerjan> next week: mroman starts using Dynamic for _everything_
14:18:29 <mroman> I like static type checking
14:19:18 <oerjan> mroman: x ++ [y] is vaguely discouraged because it's an inefficiency trap if overused hth
14:19:29 <mroman> Lists could have been abstracted as a type class as well
14:19:39 <mroman> oerjan: It is inefficient
14:19:42 <boily> abstract lists are sequences hth.
14:20:07 <mroman> This prevents me from implementing ++ for other list like types :(
14:20:20 <mroman> i.e. to flip every bit in an integer
14:20:23 <mroman> can't use map for that
14:21:16 <oerjan> see MonoTraversable or something
14:21:43 <mroman> there should be an interface with head and tail
14:22:02 <oerjan> head and tail are also vague discouraged
14:22:20 <mroman> by that logic lisp is discouraged
14:22:54 <oerjan> lisp doesn't have a tradition for pattern matching
14:23:41 <mroman> car on an empty list returns NIL right?
14:24:20 <oerjan> well that's incompatible with static typing.
14:25:44 <mroman> data List a = (Nilable a) => Cons a (List a) | Empty
14:26:10 <mroman> I'm sure it could be done in haskell as well
14:26:16 <mroman> type system is pretty fucking powerful
14:26:25 <mroman> now with type operators and type functions and shit
14:30:40 <mroman> and maybeHead' = fromJust . maybeHead for all the suckers out there
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14:33:33 <lambdabot> ‘>>’ (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
14:33:41 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
14:34:02 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
14:34:36 <mroman> does Functor have a monad instance?
14:34:50 <oerjan> Functor is a class, so no.
14:35:12 <oerjan> in fact, next release it's a superclass of Monad.
14:35:19 <mroman> it would be cool if you could write
14:35:28 <mroman> stuff = do { head' [2]; (*2); }
14:35:56 <oerjan> wait, do you mean functions, because they do
14:35:57 <mroman> (i.e. do inserts flip (<$>) between lines)
14:36:45 <lambdabot> Alternative f => f a -> f a -> f a
14:40:02 <mroman> I should implement a prototype of my crazy non-type system
14:41:28 <mroman> You don't specify the type you specify what functions the type support
14:44:41 <mroman> i.e. for sum it would require that (+) :: a -> a -> a exists
14:45:50 <oerjan> i think clean has single-function typeclasses like that
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16:57:48 <oren> mroman: isn't that sort of like duck typing?
16:59:53 <boily> duck typing, the most pernicious type system of them all.
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17:29:45 <zzo38> This is the Turtle RDF parser: http://sprunge.us/ZgKN Have you ever used any other Turtle RDF parsers at all?
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17:37:01 <zzo38> Please write all of your complaints about it on here
17:37:06 <Lymia> mroman, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_type_system
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17:51:14 <oren> `relcome DAZ_fr
17:51:54 <HackEgo> DAZ_fr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:15:46 <int-e> Tetrapyloctomy: it is true. the house has internet but the owner is abroad and unable to connect the computer that fungot is on.
19:16:34 <int-e> hmm, I guess it is technically false now that the house has internet.
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19:22:25 <FireFly> Which is why the topic was edited.
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19:24:27 <int-e> oh, Tetrapyloctomy lied.
19:32:25 <oren> *eyes go weird* USODA!
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19:44:14 <oren> hmmm... in regexes, ((foo)?) is the same as ((foo)|)
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19:45:44 <Taneb> I wrote a game of life implementation that runs on my GPU!
19:46:30 <oren> Awesome! is it a custom shader, or what?
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19:46:51 <Taneb> oren, it uses CUDA
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20:00:21 -!- Lady06 has set topic: pls help me for phpmyadmin barismayk@hotmail.com.
20:00:35 -!- Lady06 has set topic: pls help me for phpmyadmin scanner barismayk@hotmail.com.
20:02:08 <zzo38> Don't do like that! You have to include the link of IRC logs
20:03:16 -!- int-e has set topic: To the finder of this bottle: I'm a fungot trapped in a house with Internet but no one there to connect me | ZFC is a ChuChu rocket. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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20:15:04 <oren> Apparently if I mess up the number of glpushmatrix and glpopmatrix 's, it can force me to rebootmy computer
20:16:09 <oren> I should write a program to monitor the computer and kill firefox or any other process that starts screwing up
20:18:24 <oren> but I'm not sure how to quantify "screwing up"
20:18:37 <int-e> kill first, ask questions later
20:19:11 <oren> But see when the computer screws up too much, I can't get to terminal to do the kill
20:19:30 <oren> So I need an automatic firefox-killing bot
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20:25:38 <FireFly> oren: I think that API (using gl{Push,Pop}Matrix etc) is deprecated, btw
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20:31:52 <oren> god damn it will people stop deprecating the stuff I use?!!??!
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20:40:25 <oren> first step: ps xu | sed 's/ */\t/g' | grep firefox | cut -f4 | sort -n | tail -n1
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20:52:12 <oren> second step: if the result of the previous was higher than 50, send signals 1,2,4,6,8,and 9 to firefox
20:53:41 <oren> Hmm, actually I'm not sure that will have a different effect from just sending 9?
20:56:12 <oren> Anyway I'm now running a "foxhunter" script
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21:20:45 <oerjan> <oren> Hmm, actually I'm not sure that will have a different effect from just sending 9? <-- i don't think you're supposed to send the later ones until you've confirmed the earlier ones didn't work, or something?
21:21:15 <oerjan> assuming that's the same list of signals i saw mentioned somewhere earlier
21:21:38 <oren> I just picked some other random numbers actually
21:21:54 <oerjan> with 9 being the one processes cannot ignore, but which also gives them no chance to clean up
21:22:49 <oerjan> oh and i think whoever wrote it said something to effect of "if you ever get this far, uninstall the program because it's broken"
21:23:46 <oerjan> as in, no sensible program should ignore all the previous ones
21:24:58 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure if i've mentioned this before, but surely a sensible OS would have some resources set away to ensure the OS is _always_ responsible to a user's attempt to kill programs.
21:25:17 <oerjan> (not implying that sensible OSes actually exist)
21:26:26 <oerjan> i guess it might be hard to ensure this in a system complicated enought to have a GUI
21:27:42 <oerjan> (i've been thinking about this recently after i had to reboot _hard_ because i stupidly did head (last [1::Int ..]) in ghci when responding to a stackoverflow question)
21:27:55 <oerjan> although in afterthought, i never actually tried ^C
21:30:03 <FireFly> I usually switch over to tty and kill the process from there whenever something consumes enough memory for everything to grind to a halt
21:30:11 <oerjan> i only tried to get winghci's abort command
21:31:06 <oerjan> i suppose linux may have better ways
21:33:22 <oren> When firefox starts killing my computer, I have tried ctrl-alt-F1 but it doesn't respond
21:34:00 <oerjan> oh right i didn't try alt-f4 either
21:34:11 <oren> Which is why I have made an automated foxhunter
21:34:17 <oerjan> it is quite possible i panicked too early :P
21:38:11 <FireFly> Doesn't X usually run on tty 1?
21:38:35 <zzo38> Not as far as I know
21:38:57 <zzo38> Usually I find X on screen 7
21:39:12 <zzo38> While screens 1-6 are text screens
21:41:50 <FireFly> I think it moved to tty 1 for me in conjunction with Arch switching to systemd?
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21:47:24 <oren> For me X is screen 7, screen 8 is black, and the rest are login prompts
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21:52:23 <graue> i'm setting up my raspberry pi for the first time in a year and a half. joined irc because it's one of the few things you can do to cure boredom on a text-only computer
21:53:12 <graue> (waiting for updates to install, etc)
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21:54:02 <elliott> there have probably been new interesting languages or something but I don't recall any
21:54:31 <graue> i kinda want to play with Hev sometime, did you ever look at that one?
21:54:54 <zzo38> There are many programs that can run even in text-only mode
21:55:34 <graue> zzo38: for sure, in fact Facebook's mobile site even works fine in w3m.
21:57:55 <elliott> I think I read the Hev spec once...
21:58:12 <elliott> I rarely get to the point of actually writing things in esolangs
21:58:17 <graue> it makes precedence explicit by having all operators be natural numbers
21:58:26 <graue> me too, but when you do, that's the fun part :)
22:04:08 <graue> wherefore the interrobang?
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22:06:20 <oerjan> because he's spotted the rare and exotic graue
22:09:39 <graue> if anything, i think not being on irc much makes me less rare and exotic :D
22:09:49 <graue> y'all are the rare and exotic ones
22:10:57 <elliott> isn't not being around much the definition of rare :p
22:15:21 <oren> rare means the steak isn't cooked properly because you're trying to be fancy
22:20:31 <elliott> so graue is like an undercooked steak
22:20:57 <boily> rare is too much cooked. blue or nothing.
22:21:43 <elliott> honestly i just gnaw on the cow directly. nothing else is good enough for me
22:21:49 <elliott> preferably while it's still alive
22:21:51 <zzo38> How can I program the proper way to resolve a relative URI into absolute by use of a C code?
22:22:19 <FireFly> elliott: I thought that was "bloody"
22:46:52 <boily> Tetraphelloctomy. why are you staring at elliott?
22:49:35 <oerjan> uncouth eating habits hth
22:52:07 <boily> staring at elliott drains his lifeforce???
22:52:28 <oerjan> no, elliott has uncouth eating habits hth
22:53:33 <graue> hth = happy to hallucinate?
22:53:58 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
22:53:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:03:37 <boily> graue: what are your approximate coördinates, and body weigh? what is your favourite bagel style?
23:09:36 <graue> boily: 37N 122W, ~1e2 lbs, whole wheat with sesame seeds, you?
23:12:20 <boily> ah, another Westcoastian!
23:12:50 <boily> Montréal, ~1.5e2 lbs, Montréal style with poppyseeds.
23:13:41 <graue> i just had my first Montreal style bagel last week... place in Oakland people have been raving about, started by transplants, apparently
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23:21:44 <zzo38> I have read about Montreal style bagels, but since I don't live there, I didn't eat it
23:29:16 <FireFly> That sounds tasty, maybe I should bake some bagles
23:31:43 <zzo38> graue: How high is your elevation from the Earth though?
23:34:46 <oerjan> the esoteric survey just keep getting harder
23:47:13 <oren> WHY THE HELL DOES OPENGL NOT COMPUTE ITS OWN DAMN NORMALS?!?!!??
23:49:40 <boily> BECAUSE OPENGL IS BORKEN BEYOND ALL RECOGNISABLE REPAIR hth
23:52:32 <coppro> the mistake is coding in opengl
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23:57:13 <oren> Yah, but this is an assignment. Well, screw it it's not well done but I did it. Handing in, it won't get marked anyway cuz the TA's are on strike.
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00:04:03 <oren> The most important thing to be happy at school is once something is handed in, to wash your hands of it.
00:04:37 <boily> the feeling of a well placed and deserved "it's not my problem anymore" is cathartic.
00:05:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:05:32 <boily> now, it's time to understand my mattress and engage in a long conversation with it.
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00:25:52 <oren> deleterious means harmful or sestructive
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00:37:10 <zzo38> Is it ever possible for a relative URI when used with a base URI to result in the absolute URI which is longer than the sum of the relative and base?
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00:46:57 <oren> I don't know the details, but I assume not
00:48:45 <oren> I mean, to absolutify, the algorithm I learned was something like: if it begins with // it replaces eveything from http:// on. if it beigns with / it replaces everything from .com/ on. otherwise you just concatenate it to rhe base url
00:50:12 <oren> So http://foo.com/bar/ + foo.html -> http://foo.com/bar/foo.html
00:50:20 <oren> So http://foo.com/bar/ + /foo.html -> http://foo.com/foo.html
00:50:30 <zzo38> Well, if it starts with // it replaces everything after the first colon; it isn't necessarily http: but could be https: or ftp: or something else
00:51:13 <oren> So i think the result will always be the length of concatenation, or less
00:51:37 <zzo38> That's what I thought
00:52:28 <zzo38> Although, there are a few more things to consider, such as # and ? and /../ and stuff but I don't think any of those will make it longer than the concatenation
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00:53:30 <zzo38> I am writing a Turtle parser, so I would need to know these things. (At first I did it with a oversimplified URI resolution but now I am fixing it to do it properly.)
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01:51:34 <zzo38> oren: What is that?
02:00:16 <oren> He put a so I put a .
02:01:53 <HackEgo> [U+3000 IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE]
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03:04:02 <graue> zzo38: my elevation is 450ft, how about yours?
03:04:35 <zzo38> graue: I don't know
03:08:24 <oerjan> zzo38 is actually in a secret underwater dome
03:09:58 <zzo38> oerjan: How do you believe that? Is it because I didn't figure my elevation yet?
03:10:06 <fizzie> I think it's about 100ft here.
03:10:09 <zzo38> That is not a valid excuse.
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08:16:05 <gamemanj> *reads topic*...So, we're still fungot-less?
08:17:12 <Taneb> fnordbot, how does that make you feel?
08:17:13 <fnordbot> Taneb: began to sink downward and to everyone else out there, the secret." to the great question... you see," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. ford shouted out, " hey listen! i think we've got a deal," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in
08:20:20 <gamemanj> ...I'm thinking there should be a model compiler not based upon text analysis. Or better, a component of Fungot that logs to a file, plus a command to "merge" the log into the model...
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08:21:53 <Taneb> gamemanj, one of my friends has a bot that I think works like that in another channel
08:22:04 <Taneb> It can imitate channelgoers on request
08:25:31 <int-e> I bet that fizzie would be excited about patches.
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14:08:23 <asie> haven't been here for a year, wow
14:08:45 <asie> you remember me!
14:08:54 <asie> since the last time i had been here, i moved on to develop Minecraft mods
14:08:58 <asie> and become the maintainer of the BuildCraft mod
14:09:02 <asie> and, in fact, i come here with a quest
14:09:11 <asie> as i'm going to be working on an addon to it that adds low-tech computing
14:09:24 <asie> i'm looking for a language, esoteric or not, that would feel retro but be approachable (quirky is fine, though)
14:09:26 <oerjan> aha. i think this channel has been out of its minecraft period for a while.
14:09:40 <asie> most people have
14:09:49 <asie> but vanilla minecraft and modded minecraft are just about as similar as java and scala
14:10:35 <oerjan> well FORTRAN, COBOL and BASIC come to mind
14:10:56 <asie> COBOL and approachable aren't exactly
14:11:04 <asie> though it's a good idea for an april fools version of the mod
14:11:30 <asie> also, feel retro != actually be retro
14:11:46 <oerjan> i think there is some retro esolang
14:11:55 <asie> retro in this case probably means simple, the rest can be done with green phosphors and floppy disks
14:12:05 <asie> simple in terms of rule/function set, not necessairly usage
14:12:09 <oerjan> oh that punchcard thing, although that may not be approachable
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14:14:10 <oerjan> the wiki is slow as usual
14:14:52 <oerjan> asie: you could try FORTE it looks like BASIC but is completely insane
14:15:29 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/SYCPOL is the punchcard one
14:15:49 <asie> FORTE is funny
14:16:07 <oerjan> oh SYCPOL would have been a good one to tell graue about when he was here yesterday
14:18:19 <asie> instead of using floppies, use punch cards
14:18:29 <asie> and you craft punch cards into punchcard stacks to raise your maximum program length
14:19:54 <Melvar> Whoa, a buildcraft maintainer here? Really?
14:20:03 <asie> https://github.com/BuildCraft/BuildCraft/commits/6.5.x
14:20:08 <asie> i took over after literally the whole team quit
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14:20:16 <vifino> Wait, what? asie is here? Blew my mind.
14:20:33 <asie> (first SpaceToad left, then Sengir left, then CovertJaguar started being slow, then SpaceToad came back, then SpaceToad made CovertJaguar quit, then SpaceToad left again, making the team count 0)
14:20:40 <asie> (I asked SpaceToad and as we worked together before he let me take over the whole thing)
14:21:09 <asie> (I took over 5 months ago and it had been crazy - the codebase was an utter mess, 3 networking systems in one mod (!), nobody bothered to clean it up and bugs trumped other bugs)
14:21:25 <asie> (in the first 2 months alone i got 130 bugs reported and fixed, working alone save for a few PRs)
14:22:04 <asie> and now i'm working on BuildCraft 7
14:22:10 <asie> the main change being we're finally re-doing the textures
14:22:29 <asie> as modded Minecraft players know, BuildCraft is known for not giving into power creep, having the best automation capabilites and the second worst textures in the Minecraft world
14:22:39 <oerjan> i'll have to stop thinking of you as the "youngest guy in channel" :P
14:22:55 <asie> i joined here when i was 12 or 13 i think?
14:23:16 <asie> it's been ages
14:23:20 <oerjan> that's the number i vaguely remember, anyway
14:23:23 <asie> but yeah, i'm maintaining BuildCraft now...
14:23:28 <asie> Melvar: out of curiosity, what is the last BC version you playeD?
14:23:33 <asie> (or do you still play it?)
14:25:00 <asie> generally, the previous "low-tech computer mod" (that is, one which didn't use Lua), RedPower 2's Computers, used FORTH
14:25:16 <Melvar> asie: Let me look. I’ve not been playing minecraft very recently, not enough time and another game took precedence.
14:25:20 <asie> with a custom, highly propiertary and originally undocumented 6502 extension called the 65EL02
14:25:23 <asie> Melvar: MC version?
14:25:44 <asie> the next one, NedoComputers, used a small modification of the J1 FORTH CPU, but that mod is abandoned and highly unstable
14:28:51 <Melvar> asie: Direwolf20 pack for Minecraft 1.7.10, with BuildCraft 6.1.7, apparently. I’d never been much of a fan of BuildCraft for a while, using it only for a few little jobs that apparently no other mod in the pack could do.
14:29:02 <asie> BuildCraft 6.1.7 is actually 2 weeks after I took it over
14:29:10 <asie> since then, i fixed pretty much every major bug we could find
14:29:12 <asie> and many minor ones
14:29:23 <asie> also, BuildCraft has really taken the drain in late 2013 and early 2014
14:29:25 <asie> i'm trying to fix that
14:29:32 <asie> if you have any ideas, ping me
14:30:19 <asie> also, someone suggested I go with a minimized version of Befunge
14:30:25 <asie> and create a two-dimensional program editor
14:32:02 <oerjan> befunge has a lot of commands
14:35:16 <Melvar> Well, I don’t know. I get the impression that BuildCraft is supposed to be a complete, closed system, but this fails because parts of it are eclipsed by other mods making them more convenient, until only a few disconnected pieces seem useful.
14:36:50 <FireFly> Befunge seems a bit inconvenient
14:37:03 <FireFly> Although I guess Minecraft would make for a cool environment to edit trefunge programs in?
14:37:22 <FireFly> I mean, 3D grids are kinda native to MC.
14:40:14 <asie> Melvar: i'm working on that
14:40:23 <Melvar> FireFly: That sounds interesting. Write a trefunge mod, where you have computers that warp you into their memory (a dimension) to write the program. Make sure to bring an angel block from Extra Utilities when you do.
14:40:27 <asie> first of all, BuildCraft got robots which are essentially small, gate-controllable, single-task flying entities
14:40:35 <asie> this can replace a lot of MFR
14:40:46 <asie> second, Forestry and RailCraft still fit very well with BC, supplanting it in the processing/power area
14:41:04 <asie> and now I plan to write BC addons to increase the amount of things that fit very well with BC, eventually making a real ecosystem of its own
14:41:11 <FireFly> I pretty much haven't played modded MC at all
14:41:17 <FireFly> I should probably try out BuildCraft, it sounds fun
14:41:18 <asie> and, in general, most popular modpacks are not BC-friendly really
14:41:28 <asie> the issue is that other mods eclipse them *and* provide more power
14:42:07 <asie> it's the eternal fight between simplicity from complexity (that is, complex code providing a simple UI - ender io, applied energistics, etc.)
14:42:20 <asie> and complexity from simplicity (a simple set of rules allowing complex interactions - buildcraft, logistics pipes, forestry, railcraft, etc.)
14:42:38 <asie> the first is always more beneficial to the user with the exception of the small minority of people who enjoy engineering
14:42:43 <asie> but the second provides for more fun gameplay IMO
14:43:00 <FireFly> I think something like Forth would fit Minecraft
14:43:03 <asie> FORTH is what RP2 did
14:43:06 <asie> but many people hate FORTH
14:43:08 <asie> i like FORTH personally
14:43:13 <asie> but most people say that I should either do a BASIC or a Lisp
14:43:17 <asie> i think that in both cases they don't know what they're asking for
14:43:44 <FireFly> A lisp would be fun, too, but I don't think that would be as approachable
14:44:02 <asie> my idea was to just do some kind of RISC CPU architecture
14:44:16 <Melvar> IIRC the RP2 forth was only what was on the default disk.
14:44:17 <asie> and let users write their own EEPROMs, allowing them to be created with BC
14:44:22 <asie> we have an UI for that
14:44:27 <asie> other mods could provide their own alternatives to the default FORTH ROM
14:44:30 <FireFly> You could perhaps use DCPU-16?
14:44:55 <FireFly> Conisdering 0x10c is vaporware anyway, I don't think notch would mind
14:45:34 <asie> FireFly: DCPU-16 is a horrid architecture in many ways
14:45:39 <Melvar> Recreate 0x10c in Minecraft. >ω>
14:45:48 <asie> it's approachable but it has a problem of many approachable things, and MC mods
14:45:56 <asie> it lets you do the easy stuff very easily
14:45:59 <asie> and hard stuff with high difficulty
14:46:13 <asie> however, i do want to make a proper terminal GPU
14:46:16 <asie> with palettes and etc
14:48:50 <Melvar> The problem with the complexity from simplicity type is the resolution of the Minecraft world.
14:49:07 <asie> Is it really a problem?
14:49:12 <asie> I see people use mods such as BuildCraft very effectively
14:49:23 <Melvar> Contraptions for doing useful things invariably become too large to hide in the walls.
14:49:30 <asie> What's wrong with large buildings?
14:49:37 <asie> Also, BC is also doing things to help that
14:49:47 <asie> BC 6.1 brought sided gates so you can have up to 6 gates on a single pipe, up from the previous limit of 1
14:51:18 <FireFly> I think the resolution limitations makes it more interesting
14:51:45 <asie> Forge MultiPart is a mod which lets you place multiple blocks on a single pipe
14:51:48 <asie> I am very much against that
14:51:51 * Melvar wishes for micropart pipes that can fit multiple in a block and additionally share the space with other mods. Glares at EnderIO.
14:52:05 <asie> Melvar: I refuse to accept that
14:52:13 <asie> However, someone was working on a mod which adds FMP support to BuildCraft.
14:52:19 <asie> amadornes, I believe
14:52:22 * FireFly doesn't really know what a pipe is in this context
14:52:51 <asie> FireFly: http://southstormhosting.com/images/Untitled.png
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14:53:09 <asie> this is an example of pipes
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15:11:21 <Melvar> asie: Gates, pipe wire, and facades are, in my book, microparts except lacking interoperability.
15:11:45 <asie> gates can't possibly work on other blocks
15:11:51 <asie> facades are supported by AE2 and maybe soon thermal dynamics
15:11:53 <asie> pipe wire same
15:11:56 <asie> can't work on other blocks
15:18:49 <zzo38> I also happen to like Forth, and believe it ought to be included in ROM of any computer and allow you to access it
15:20:19 <Melvar> asie: My point was that you said you were against being able to place multiple things on a single pipe, and yet just previously you seemed happy about sided gates, which I would have classified as just that.
15:21:04 <asie> Melvar: in a single block space moreso
15:21:08 <asie> because often that requires complex code
15:21:12 <asie> and might cause design issues
15:23:00 <asie> i'm against being able to do things like place five pipes on one block
15:23:11 <asie> because too much in my opinion is too much and infinite compactization is not that good
15:27:00 <Melvar> Okay, but that’s EnderIO-specific, which is incompatible with Forge MultiPart, which you seemed to be complaining about.
15:27:21 <asie> Eh. It's hard to explain
15:27:28 <asie> My primary complaint is that modern mods try to simplify and miniaturize everything.
15:28:16 <asie> BuildCraft is one of the few mods which try to stay core to its roots all the way since beta
15:28:21 <asie> MFR went in a different direction, so did IC2
15:28:31 <asie> ThaumCraft too... many other mods simply died out
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19:41:52 * Taneb is not that good at magic
19:42:05 <Taneb> By magic I mean M:tG, not the other kind
19:42:11 <Taneb> Or the other other kind
19:42:56 <Taneb> Both of which I'm not very good at either
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20:41:32 <oerjan> @ask int-e have you also been missing a fraction of the recent trac mail Cc:s from https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858 ?
20:42:16 <oerjan> at least there are enough to remind me to check the page, but then i wonder what _other_ tickets i might have missed Cc:s from.
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21:02:17 <zemhill_> web.steam_roller: points -30.52, score 4.21, rank 47/47
21:04:49 <oerjan> if a little unsuccessful
21:04:55 <zemhill_> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
21:05:52 <oerjan> apparently it was a naive (>)*20+[[-]>+]
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21:14:45 <fizzie> Huh, that thing isn't broken?
21:15:19 <oerjan> not entirely at least...
21:16:07 <oerjan> why do you expect it to be?
21:16:56 <fizzie> Because I haven't been paying any attention to it. And things generally tend to break.
21:17:14 <fizzie> I wonder if the Ruby (and matrix lib) update actually fixed the scoring problems though.
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21:17:35 <fizzie> Oh well, time to go again.
21:18:25 <oerjan> at least it put that program on the bottom as expected
21:38:02 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't get emails for comments 63 (the commit), 65, 67 and 68...
21:38:51 * oerjan too late realized he shouldn't have deleted the emails he _did_ get before checking this...
21:38:58 <int-e> . o O ( SLEEPY DUCK )
21:40:46 <oerjan> i don't think i got 61, 63. i did get 64. i don't _think_ i got 65 and am pretty sure i didn't get 67.
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21:42:28 <oerjan> not sure about 62 or 66, 68 and 70. i'm sure i got 69.
21:42:35 <oerjan> oh hm i should still have the last one
21:43:12 <oerjan> so my vague memory is pretty consistent with us missing the same messages.
21:44:26 <oerjan> there's a pipermail archive, i'll check that
21:49:26 <oerjan> ok the archive isn't missing any messages.
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22:13:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esseks * New user account
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01:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42104&oldid=42072 * Ypnypn * (+29)
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01:12:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42105&oldid=42104 * Ypnypn * (+0)
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01:59:44 <zzo38> I figured out now that the URI of a UUID is "urn:uuid:" followed by the UUID in lowercase
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02:35:00 <oren> is it cheaper to buy one large SD card or several smaller ones?
02:37:38 <oren> hmm, price seems to be linear with the data size
02:38:31 <oren> no wait, it's not linear. WTF
02:39:46 <oren> 64GB=70$ 32GB=17$ 16GB=10$
02:40:19 <oren> so I guess the best deal is at 32gb sdcards?
02:40:27 <FireFly> Eh, i think you can find cheaper SD cards than that
02:40:47 <FireFly> well, check the data rate and such too, I guess
02:40:57 <oren> this is on futureshop.ca... maybe if I go to koreatown
02:41:12 <FireFly> Don't you have any price comparison sites over there?
02:42:18 <FireFly> I seem to be able to find 64GB SDXC cards for ~300 SEK ≈ 35 USD
02:43:03 <oren> Ooh, I see... walmart has much better prices
02:45:00 <fizzie> As said, not all SD cards are equal from a performance point of view.
02:45:48 <oren> I don't think i need high speed, this is just to put in my mp3 player
02:47:34 <oren> What does "class 10" mean?
02:48:30 <oren> Oh, I see, it means the same as 100x CD drive
02:49:05 <oren> Or something like that
02:50:11 <fizzie> 10 MB/s, or some such. Though it can get confusing.
02:50:48 <fizzie> Like UHS class 1 is regular class 10 or something.
02:52:13 <fizzie> Some cards probably still have those "133x"-style numbers related to nominal CD drive speeds.
02:55:01 <oren> Well it seems there's little benefit to getting multiple smaller sd cards
02:56:26 <oren> So I'll just get one 64GB one
02:56:38 <fizzie> Usually the GB/$ curve has a peak somewhere in the middle.
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03:41:30 <f|`-`|f> The newer generation rival sata 3 drives!
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03:52:33 <oren> Hmm... Suppose a genetic algorithm had its mutations driven by a neural network.
03:58:54 <elliott> now you have two buzzwords
04:14:30 <MDude> The reverse sounds like the more obvious arrangment.
04:15:47 <MDude> But I don't see why reversing them wouldn't be interesting.
04:17:56 <MDude> So you mean a genetic algorithm where the fitness is determined by the output of a neural network that analyses the candidates using its own learning criteria?
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04:29:41 <oren> MDude: yeah that is what i was thinking
04:30:07 <oren> elliott: but that also factored in
04:32:05 <MDude> Sounds nice, though that depends on it being made to do a cool thing. What kind of things would you have it do?
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05:12:10 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't have the problem of needing to program the files on the server for different kind of devices, user interfaces, etc; it already is suitable for any kind of interface and was ever since it was invented. (This includes keyboard, mouse, printing terminal, hand-held, touch-screen, game-system, and even by fax where you have to fill in the circles by pencil)
05:13:19 <zzo38> Yet, a lot of people won't use it. You have to learn to write a gopher server, gopher client, and also to set up the server
05:25:09 <zzo38> Phase In {1U} Instant :: Phase in all cards that are currently phased out. :: Cycling {2}
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06:54:47 <zzo38> A new kind of Limited format of Magic: the Gathering could be, each player gets ten additional cards, the same set of ten cards each player, those cards must be used in each player's deck and cannot be placed into the sideboard before the game starts. These cards are selected at random from everything. After that then you do draft or sealed, and can choose which of those cards to include and exclude and to add basic lands.
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11:37:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Damian Yerrick * New user account
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11:40:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C-]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42106&oldid=31176 * Damian Yerrick * (+158) Not to be confused with real C--
11:43:27 <Jafet> Real C--, complex C++
11:43:41 <mroman> People should just use BCPL
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12:10:37 <Taneb> mroman, C-- is an intermediate language GHC uses
12:11:17 <mroman> Since SPJ is involved in it :)
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12:23:31 <mroman> are there LISP editors with scaling parantheses?
12:39:35 <mroman> (i.e. the outermost parantheses will be largest and possibly span multiple lines)
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13:32:28 <oerjan> <mroman> Is C-- still a thing? <-- it basically lost to llvm
13:33:20 <oerjan> so is probably only used in ghc, ironically often with an llvm backend.
13:46:19 <oren> Can you write llvm code directly
13:46:40 <oren> or is it binary?
13:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42107&oldid=42105 * Ypnypn * (+104) /* Program flow */
13:48:04 <oren> define i32 @main(i32 %argc, i8** %argv) nounwind {
13:48:16 <oerjan> but i recall some haskell-related talk about whether to use the binary api or the written representation
13:48:16 <oren> Looks cool to me.
13:49:24 <oerjan> and i vaguely recall that the binary api is recommended if you're generating it by program
13:55:19 <oren> *reading docs* ohhh, no-unwind, not noun-wind!
13:57:52 <oren> Apparently you can tell it to use any number of bits for an integer
13:59:29 <oren> Maybe i'll start writing in this instead of C
14:25:45 <oren> elliott: is it cross-platform to all x86-64?
14:26:04 <elliott> well, actually probably not
14:26:18 <elliott> since win64 and linux differ on calling conventions, but then it's not OS-portable either
14:26:32 <elliott> well maybe you could write OS-portable LLVM IR if you really tried but it sounds hard
14:26:57 <oren> ZSNES is written in cross platform assembly somehow
14:31:23 <oren> I guess they could use their own call convention for internal calls?
14:31:45 <elliott> and lots of ifdefs for portability
14:32:15 <elliott> anyway, LLVM is SSA, it's not very human-writable :p
14:32:29 <oren> Hmm what does the CLR run on?
14:33:28 <oren> Oh, right it runs on CIL
14:34:26 <oren> CIL looks a lotmore writable
14:37:09 <oren> I mean, it is still an assembly language. But it has first-class string type
14:37:34 <elliott> it's also totally different to LLVM
14:37:43 <elliott> LLVM is for generating compiled, optimised native code, usually
14:37:54 <elliott> LLVM is a compiler backend/intermediate language, not really a VM any more
14:38:08 <oren> Can you not compile CLR though?
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14:38:58 <oren> no wait, of course you can, I have exe's that i compiled from C#.
14:41:12 <oren> Unless C# exes are internally just bytecode?
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14:52:31 <oren> Apparently you can do either jit compilation or compile to a native exe ahead of time.
14:55:41 <elliott> there is some kind of CIL compiler though maybe I think. it might be new?
14:55:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42108&oldid=42107 * Ypnypn * (+2128) /* Constants */
14:55:52 <elliott> but the VM is still at a higher-level to LLVM, by far.
14:55:57 <elliott> LLVM doesn't know about objects or even heap allocation.
14:57:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42109&oldid=42103 * Oerjan * (+121) Now categories on the other hand
15:20:23 <oren> to be fair, C by itself technically doesn't know about the heap either
15:20:53 <oren> C++ does though
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15:31:14 <oren> nope, apparently you can just load your own version of the new operatorif you're psycho enough
15:33:42 <FreeFull> You can run C# .exes in mono as long as they don't make use of windows-specific APIs (Windows Forms does work)
15:42:43 <coppro> oren: C++ doesn't know about the heap specifically, although it has a more detailed memory model
15:42:56 <coppro> C++ tends to do everything better than C these days
15:47:33 <oren> coppro: have they abandoned bugward compatibility to C yet?
15:50:59 <coppro> they haven't changed the major misfeatures of C which have been baked into the language, but on small things, they've broken it
15:51:17 <coppro> and they only give the slightest damn what the C committee thinks these days
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17:13:48 <oren> Oh god, that's scary. Someone just pointed out to me that I can't look at a word without reading it.
17:16:07 <int-e> Seems to be a matter of choosing the proper script for the task.
17:16:54 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
17:16:56 <int-e> oren: this works for me, for example: https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%A6%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%A9
17:20:43 <oren> Which implies that i'm slowly losing my ability to look at a chinese character without reading it, as i gain the ability to read them
17:22:04 <pikhq> Yeah, that's a fun one.
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18:27:22 <oren> The new macbook has only one USB-C port on the whole thing.... what the actual fuck?
18:28:18 <oren> $19 adapter to get a normal usb port on the damn thing
18:28:34 <FireFly> Well, admittedly it looks very clean
18:28:57 <FireFly> Your phone probably only has a micro-USB slot
18:29:10 <oren> I don't own a phone
18:29:59 <oren> Does the macbook have a headphone jack even?
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18:31:38 <oren> Doesn't look like it does. There. They just killed it
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18:34:08 <oren> Oh, so it has one, but none of their pictures showed it
18:43:59 <fizzie> What surprised me was the whole thing where you charge it through that single USB type C port, too.
18:44:32 <fizzie> I think they had some kind of an adapter so that you could charge it while still having a USB device connected?
18:45:26 <fizzie> This work laptop has a nonstandandard mini-connector for Ethernet.
18:46:09 <fizzie> You need a dongle to stick in a regular cable. But the dongle is not a regular USB-to-Ethernet thing, it's just an adapter for the custom connector.
18:46:34 <fizzie> Admittedly it's slightly smaller than a USB port, so I guess it saves space over having a third USB port.
18:47:01 <fizzie> (It's got two regular USB 3's.)
18:47:38 <fizzie> The specs page lists the Ethernet port as a "Ethernet Extension Connection".
18:48:30 <fizzie> There's also a mini-DP and a full-size HDMI, so I guess for an "ultrabook" this thing is relatively okay.
18:48:47 <fizzie> The keyboard is ridiculous, though.
18:49:30 <oren> I usually use a usb keyboard and a usb mouse when i use my computer at a desk
18:50:12 <oren> (well, on my previous laptop that was necessary. this one has a fullsize keyboard)
18:50:34 <oren> but I use the same setup out of habit
18:51:05 <fizzie> This thing is just weird. Caps lock and backspace have been split in the middle (with no gap, just a sort of a bevel thing) into a Home/End and backspace/delete bi-keys.
18:52:39 <fizzie> And the function key row is a strip of some sort of touch-sensitive material, and touching the leftmost edge swaps between showing F1..F12 (plus four random special symbols) and showing more special stuff (bridgness, volume, some symbols I have no idea what they mean).
18:53:31 <fizzie> Like, there's a single symbol that has a camera and a hand and some extra "motion" lines for the hand. So it's the "wave hand at camera" button.
18:54:11 <oren> I have seen some cray keyboards but nothing like that
18:54:57 <fizzie> One is the "cut" symbol, and then there's a cloud, and then there's a "speaking" icon (face and "sound waves" from the mouth).
18:55:09 <fizzie> None of these result in any events as seen by xev.
18:55:20 <fizzie> I doubt they've really had Linux in mind for this thing.
18:55:49 <oren> my friend has this monstrous 20" abomination that has a light-up volume slider thing and a fingerprint password thing
18:56:17 <fizzie> Oh, there's a fingerprint sensor next to the keyboard on this too.
18:56:32 <fizzie> For the record, this thing is the Lenovo "X1 Carbon" ThinkPad.
18:56:56 <fizzie> Although I seem to recall they had two separate hardware revisions, and maybe the keyboard in the first one was less weird or something.
18:57:06 <fizzie> All reviews about this thing I've seen have mostly complained about the keyboard.
18:57:33 <oren> Yeah my friend's laptop is also a lenovo of some sort
18:57:36 <fizzie> Though it's pretty nice as far as regular typing and such goes. The touch-panel for the function keys lacks any feel, of course.
18:58:18 <oren> Or... maybe it's an asus?
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19:08:27 <oren> Well, I looked up the laptop, looks like the newest version has a more normal keyboard
19:11:44 <oren> FP: "the new macbook has only 8GB of RAM" Me: "only? ONLY?"
19:15:46 <fizzie> Yeah, this one has only 8GB too.
19:16:03 <FireFly> fizzie: split caps lock actually sounds like a neat idea... I mean, it's not as if its original function is any useful, and if you're going to replace it you might as well stick two keys there instead of just one
19:16:41 <fizzie> FireFly: It's possibly not a bad idea for anyone who had been keeping it as a caps lock and never pressing it.
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19:16:59 <fizzie> FireFly: If you've done the popular thing and swapped ctrl/capslock, it's probably somewhat confusing.
19:17:18 <FireFly> I have ctrl/esc on my caps lock
19:17:51 <FireFly> I wouldn't mind being able to put another modifier on the left half of the caps lock (since it's the right half I tend to reach for the ctrl/esc functionality)
19:17:54 <fizzie> Is that one of the "modifier when pressed with something, esc when pressed alone" kind of thing?
19:18:53 <fizzie> This keyboard also moves esc down from the function row, so that it's right next to '1'.
19:19:54 <fizzie> And the key formerly next to 1 (which is §/½ in the Finnish keymap, and not-and-broken-bar or some-such in UK) is between altgr and ctrl on the right side of the spacebar, the place where you'd normally find a menu key and maybe a right Windows key.
19:20:13 <fizzie> There's no menu key in this thing at all, which I mind a little, since I've used that as compose.
19:22:33 <Melvar> I wonder if I’m the only one who thinks replacing capslock with level3shift is the best thing.
19:22:42 <fizzie> An image is worth a kiloword, so https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZAejVOUmt5eVpQZkk/view
19:23:08 <fizzie> Since I'm here in Mountain View anyway, I went to the Computer History Museum on Sunday.
19:23:33 <fizzie> There was one of those Lisp machines with the Symbolics six-modifier keyboards there.
19:23:55 <fizzie> (Control, shift, symbol, meta, super and hyper.)
19:25:07 * Melvar looks. Has control, shift, level3shift, level5shift, alt, super.
19:26:25 <fizzie> There was also a Connection Machine cube, but it's pretty boring with no leds lit.
19:28:00 <fizzie> And there's the working Difference Engine No. 2. They've also got one back in London, but I don't think they show people how it runs.
19:28:23 <Melvar> fizzie: Do those home|end and ⌫|delete keys send the codes one would expect from the keys with the same engraving on a more usual keyboard?
19:28:42 <fizzie> Melvar: As far as I can tell, yes. At least they worked out of the box.
19:29:26 <Melvar> Bah. >ω> So every other layout has to be tweaked to work right on it.
19:30:02 <fizzie> Depends on what you mean by "right". I mean, if you want them to do what they say they do...
19:30:31 <fizzie> I'm using a boring unmodified "setxkbmap fi nodeadkeys" on this. But I don't use the laptop all that much either.
19:32:03 <Melvar> Actually, it’s not as bad as some.
19:32:51 <oren> For my rgular input, I am using a custom IME with ` mapped to a whole bunch of shortcuts
19:35:08 <Melvar> I wonder why, if laptop vendors are fine with sticking the keypad into the main block + fn, they don’t do so with the rest of the stuff outside the main block.
19:37:49 <int-e> because volume control and opening a browser with the vendor's homepage are important features?
19:38:03 <int-e> (I made up the latter, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a real thing.)
19:40:03 <fizzie> int-e: The "adaptive keys" in this thing are supposed to have five modes: home mode, web-browser mode, web-conference mode, function mode and lay-flat mode.
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19:40:14 <Melvar> I haven’t ever seen them fill up the left side of the keyboard with that.
19:40:24 <fizzie> I don't know how to get to all those modes, the toggle-mode switch on Linux just toggles between two.
19:41:00 <fizzie> The home mode and the function mode, apparently.
19:42:15 <fizzie> Heh. The cloud key "opens the predefined cloud application".
19:42:53 <oren> the butt key opens the predefined butt application
19:48:21 <oren> Hmm, my computer has mostly useful buttons. My external keyboard, however, has a full range of useless keys from calculator to five "multimedia keys"
19:49:55 <L8D> so is bfjoust still a thing? or did that finally die?
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19:52:01 <oren> zemhill is on the channel
19:52:21 <L8D> but is it still popular?
19:52:57 <L8D> I'll assume it's not
19:53:53 <FireFly> oren: if "multimedia keys" means volume control, I would say that's actually useful
19:54:33 <oren> no, it means pause, play, stop, forward and back.
19:55:09 <oren> the volume control knob isn't a key and is useful
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19:56:55 <oren> I should map these keys to useful things. like opening a new terminal
19:57:54 <oren> the multimedia keys could be useful if they switched windows around
19:59:52 <FireFly> I find media control to be pretty useful, although I don't have any dedicated keys for it (and even if I did, I probably wouldn't use them) so I have mapped play/pause, prev, next to win+alt+(h,t,n) instead
20:00:29 <fizzie> L8D: BFJousting usually happens in waves. It's not popular now, but it might well be again in the future.
20:00:48 <L8D> fizzie: makes sense
20:00:50 * Melvar would have something similar if he ever figured out an easy reliable way to do it.
20:00:54 <oren> Mostly when I play music I just put on a 5-12 hour youtube videos, so the media keys don't even work
20:01:01 <fizzie> It's happened several times already. There's a brief (a week or two) boom, and then things die down again.
20:02:29 <Melvar> FireFly: Media control.
20:04:06 <FireFly> I bind the keys to `mpc toggle`, `mpc prev`, `mpc next` using xbindkeys
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20:06:30 <Melvar> I don’t use mpd; I’d want it to affect rhythmbox and vlc, depending on if vlc is running.
20:07:09 <FireFly> Hm, maybe you could come up with something using dbus
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20:08:10 <Melvar> Yeah, there’s a protocol there, but I never got around to using it.
20:08:41 <Melvar> I did actually manage to make volume keys work, which is a separate issue.
20:09:23 <Melvar> (I don’t have them on my keyboard, but my headset sends appropriate keyboard events.)
20:16:08 <fizzie> I made volume keys work the other day as XMonad bindings.
20:16:39 <Melvar> That is in fact how I did it too.
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20:20:50 * oerjan idly ping Gregor just in case
20:23:59 <oerjan> <newsham> `olist <-- thanks although ideally you should include the number hth
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20:27:28 <BlueProtoman> I feel like running a strange and obscure operating system for some reason. Any ideas? In fact, are esoteric operating systems even a thing?
20:28:21 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Beat you to it, someone suggested it in another channel
20:28:45 <oerjan> other thoughts: oberon or plan 9
20:28:56 * oerjan hasn't tried any of those personally, mind you
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20:31:52 <FireFly> "are esoteric operating systems even a thing?" Well #osdev is a thing
20:31:58 <FireFly> You can probably find some esoteric OSes there
20:36:06 <fizzie> Obscure operating systems are certainly a thing people do.
20:37:02 <Taneb> There's http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/pavlov.html
20:37:18 <Taneb> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/petrovich.html rather
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20:37:42 <oerjan> Taneb: that explains why it didn't ring a bell
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20:39:32 <fizzie> Soon it's just "Fr", and then "F", and then "".
20:40:04 <oerjan> i suspect some of those may not be available
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20:40:41 <fizzie> I assume you at least got some "has been registered" messages?
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20:48:42 <oerjan> Frooxius: you're gradually approaching a #fixyourconnection ban hth
20:49:15 <oerjan> (if i can remember the actual syntax)
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20:52:05 <oerjan> it doesn't help that i cannot seem to google it
20:52:08 <fizzie> +b nick!user@host$#channel. Or possibly ##channel.
20:52:22 <oerjan> um it's the precise channel i'm trying to google
20:52:41 <fizzie> ##c uses ##stop_join_flood.
20:53:05 <fizzie> (I know it's not the only similar channel.)
20:53:34 <oerjan> oh it seems to be ##fixyourconnection
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21:38:05 <oerjan> trac still molasses, well it should be fixed soon since i saw spj complain >:)
21:38:06 <int-e> oerjan: a gerund, not an adjective.
21:38:22 <oerjan> oh i didn't interpret it any other way
21:38:41 <oerjan> i just didn't connect it with the ##fixyourconnection discussion at first
21:39:30 <oerjan> sheesh it actually timed out
21:39:58 <int-e> (s/connect/*connect*/g for emphasis)
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21:42:35 * oerjan suddenly starst wondering what fmnssun means
22:10:12 <oren> f minus sun? ~
22:17:56 <oren> that does not really help?
22:19:05 <oerjan> you're getting the hang of this!
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23:01:31 <boily> sgthot? what's a sgthot twh plzkthx
23:02:24 <oerjan> still getting the hang of this hth
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23:03:50 <boily> (also, hellørjan, because traditions.)
23:04:01 <boily> (and Jafellot btw!)
23:04:03 <Jafet> Someone who isn't Sgt Cool
23:05:08 <oerjan> just acronymize to swisc and it'll all be clear (tsial)
23:05:59 <boily> The Psong Sof Ice And Lire?
23:07:38 <boily> Supernatural Wraith In Substantial Corpses? Tremendous Spectres Isolated from Abyssal Lands?
23:09:21 <oerjan> t** p******* s******* i* a l** hth
23:11:40 * boily brains... thinks... grinds...
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23:27:53 <FireFly> You could acronymize hellørjan to hø
23:30:11 <FireFly> "tsial" works as well for some values of t, fwiw
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23:46:16 <oren> ak-RAW-nim-ize
23:48:31 <boily> the Sgeo is a lie?
23:50:52 <oerjan> that explains so much!
23:53:35 <oerjan> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2803 hth
23:53:51 <oerjan> (got this via the iwc forum, i think)
23:55:19 <oerjan> also that was too hard to find, i hate that IE seems to only find _some_ urls when autocompleting from the logs :(
23:56:23 <boily> oren: Downtack De I??? And no, I won't use soda.
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23:57:25 <oren> it is a angry face, in referance to higurashi hth
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00:03:55 <HackEgo> vodkode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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00:48:35 <quintopia> ProofTechnique: cannot wait for apr 4
00:48:45 <quintopia> oerjan: what's your opinion of danny elfman
00:51:17 <oerjan> ok i googled, still no opinion
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08:59:02 <HackEgo> olist (977): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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09:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42110&oldid=38399 * 77.88.93.100 * (+231) /* Interpreters */
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10:33:34 <Jafet> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forget,_when_up_to_one%27s_neck_in_alligators,_that_the_mission_is_to_drain_the_swamp
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11:30:02 <J_Arcane> so i have a dumb idea for a gui framework
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11:42:54 <oren> J_Arcane: can't be much dumber than the ones that exist.
11:42:55 <oren> So, what language?
11:42:55 <J_Arcane> oren: Racket, but possibly not directly, but rather as a major feature of my next language project.
11:42:56 <J_Arcane> The gist is that the "view" is a function, which takes a model and returns the model, but the function's described with a declarative template syntax that describes both the UI elements, and the input/output elements of same. The function takes a struct/object and injects its values into the output fields as described in the template, and then returns a new struct with the values of the...
11:42:56 <J_Arcane> So you'd have (view (window (textbox FOO) (button BAR))), and you pass (view ...) a struct containing fields FOO and BAR, and the framework would draw a window and put the value of FOO into the text box, and if BAR gets clicked, when it returns that cycle, BAR will equal #t or whatever.
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11:48:56 <diginet> you know what would be interesting?
11:48:56 <diginet> instead of esoteric languages, esoteric CPUs
11:48:58 <diginet> or more specifically, esoteric instruction sets
11:49:12 <diginet> (which I guess in a way, does kind of fall under the category of language)
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12:48:08 <FireFly> Also the GPU-like one by ais523
12:48:28 <FireFly> Ah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout
12:50:33 <Taneb> I'll be doing a topology module next year!
12:55:14 <Taneb> So maybe I'll be able to figure out what a chu space actually is
12:55:19 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
12:55:27 <Taneb> Huh, apparently it's just a matrix
12:59:48 <FireFly> You'd think you would know
13:00:31 <Taneb> Chu also stole my memory of it
13:00:36 <Taneb> And a lot of the precursors to it
13:01:50 <Taneb> I've had to relearn all of group theory in the past three years
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13:21:03 <Taneb> fnordbot, how are you doing?
13:21:04 <fnordbot> Taneb: in the dead of myxomatosis, if it's all the same to you," he added, " i'll have you hung, huge, heavy, steady in the sky a huge green catalogue to keep us out!" " what the hell am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you to the bridge at that, i can tell. ford was running after him very fast? " very pretty," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was on
13:21:19 <fizzie> I predict a fungot on Saturday.
13:22:23 <int-e> oh wow, myxomatosis
13:22:39 <int-e> somebody ban curtiii please.
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13:22:58 <elliott> didn't I ban something like that recently
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13:29:04 <elliott> whoever greps the log for the last one like that and tells me the commonality
13:29:41 <FireFly> Hm, they query-spammed in #dolphin-emu a few hours ago as well
13:30:23 <FireFly> 2015-03-03 22:07:53 <-- elliott has kicked crinzesi (crinzesi)
13:31:09 <FireFly> 2015-01-03 01:10:31 <-- elliott has kicked corsee (corsee)
13:32:07 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC is back online
13:32:49 <mroman> damn webserver isn't setting charset=utf-8 though.
13:33:39 <mroman> (http://esosc.mroman.ch also works)
13:34:02 <elliott> FireFly: but what were the hostmasks :(
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13:35:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESOSC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42111&oldid=42082 * 160.85.232.191 * (+113) * ESOSC back in da buzinezz <br><br>
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13:36:58 <int-e> :crinzesi!~crinzesi@213.143.60.205 JOIN #esoteri :corsee!~corsee@90.174.3.1 JOIN #esoteric ...
13:37:17 <elliott> okay well let's just ban everyone with names starting with c
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13:40:24 <int-e> Two addresses assigned to France Telecom Spain (cprinzesi, curtiii), an IP belonging to ZHAW (http://www.zhaw.ch/), and no obvious link; could be a botnet.
13:41:29 <elliott> what were they spamming again? I've forgotten already
13:42:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EnumCZ * New user account
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13:55:43 <quintopia> elliott: i agree. especially clog. that guy steams me up.
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14:01:47 <mroman> Taneb: http://esosc.mroman.ch/ESOSC-2014-D3-R1.TXT
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14:03:00 <nortti> why the limit to just latin letters?
14:03:31 <Taneb> mroman, the grammar seems to have no "This is what the format is" thingy
14:03:57 <Taneb> Initial variable, I think that's the word
14:04:00 <Taneb> Also, what nortti said
14:04:05 <FireFly> mroman: wouldn't that be ESOSC-2015-D3-R1?
14:04:27 <mroman> but it started in 2014 :)
14:04:29 <Taneb> Also I think shorthand variables should generally be separated by spaces when ambiguity can occur
14:04:50 <Taneb> Although that isn't a problem in this version
14:04:57 <mroman> you mean for variables with two or more letters?
14:06:32 <mroman> ideally you'd say that two letters requires spaces?
14:07:52 <mroman> lambda = L, variable, ".", term; that'd be non-abbreviated
14:08:46 <mroman> you can't distinguish \xy as \"xy" from abbreviated \"x".\"y". then
14:09:14 <mroman> you could require multi letter variables to start with a special character
14:10:19 <mroman> like _ or ' or whatever
14:10:36 <mroman> then \_xy_zc is without ambuigity \_xy.\_zc
14:11:49 <mroman> but you can't parse it otherwise
14:11:54 <FireFly> I think mandating \x y z. is fine
14:12:05 <mroman> then you can't write \xyz
14:12:30 <mroman> but that's a good trade-off :)
14:12:36 <quintopia> pfft who needs multiletter variables? just allow all of unicode as variable names!
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14:15:52 <HackEgo> [U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK] [U+003B SEMICOLON]
14:16:20 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT
14:16:31 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0440 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ER]
14:17:01 <int-e> quintopia: I'm actually really happy with programming languages that are restricted to ASCII.
14:17:40 <HackEgo> [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER]
14:19:55 <nortti> mroman: how about whitespace? maybe just declare that you can use additional whitespace between elements?
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14:21:46 <mroman> nortti: Ah. Good point.
14:21:55 <mroman> I'm not sure how you embed that into EBNF
14:22:03 <mroman> except like saying "additional whitespaces are ignored"
14:23:11 <mroman> there's no space allowed in there
14:23:54 <mroman> L, {spaces}, variable, {spaces}, ".", {spaces}
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14:26:26 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT <- like that? @nortti
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14:28:10 <nortti> that disallows ( foo )
14:28:44 <nortti> maybe add additional { spaces }, to the beginning of term?
14:31:25 <mroman> (updated http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT)
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14:31:41 <nortti> also, where am I to start reading the grammar specification? at term?
14:31:43 <mroman> (there's a ; missing after variable, too.)
14:31:43 <quintopia> does ? thing ? mean the same as thing | ''?
14:32:11 <mroman> ISO/IEC 14977 says ? ? is a special sequence
14:32:18 <mroman> with human readable stuff afaik
14:32:26 <mroman> ? those weird looking letters ?
14:32:58 <mroman> { } is optional repetition
14:33:33 <quintopia> so { thing } means the same as thing = things | ''?
14:33:43 <mroman> { thing } is zero or more times a thing.
14:35:34 <mroman> variable = .. { spaces } is stupid though
14:35:41 <mroman> spaces aren't part of the variable actually
14:35:52 <mroman> it'd also conflict with { variable, " " },
14:37:27 <mroman> (http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT)
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14:39:02 <nortti> so no whitespace permitted in the "\x."? I see
14:39:15 <mroman> "\x ." is illegal, yes
14:39:59 <mroman> L, { variable, " " }, variable, ".", term, { spaces };
14:40:12 <nortti> also, isn't the { spaces } in the end of lambda a bit redundant? it can only end in term, which ends in { spaces }
14:40:12 <mroman> L, { variable, " " }, [ variable ], ".", term, { spaces }; should fix that however?
14:40:49 <nortti> same with parens and application
14:42:51 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R3.TXT <- like that
14:42:57 <mroman> that would allow "\x ."
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14:44:15 <nortti> wait, why [ variable ] ?
14:44:34 <mroman> you want "\x y." to be legal
14:44:59 <mroman> which wouldn't be legal only with { variable, " " } because then you'd be missing a space after "y"
14:45:18 <mroman> because this way it is optional
14:45:25 <mroman> thus allowing "\x y ."
14:45:51 <mroman> (otherwise "\x y ." would be illegal because it expects another variable)
14:46:19 <mroman> this way L, { spaces }, variable , ".", term; is actually redundant
14:46:42 <mroman> otherwise "\." would be legal :D
14:47:13 <mroman> but you'd want at least one variable, " "
14:49:34 <mroman> { variable, " " } [variable] is both zero or more
14:50:37 <mroman> but (variable, " ") wouldn't allow "\x ." again :(
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14:51:16 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R4.TXT <- ok, that should fix that zero variables
14:52:20 <nortti> how about replacing " " with a space in general?
14:52:36 <mroman> I was just thinking about that too :D
14:52:56 <mroman> " " could be replaced with { space }
14:53:06 <mroman> so it would allow even stuff like "\x y z"
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14:54:48 <mroman> L, { space }, (variable, { space }), { variable, { space } },
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14:58:35 <mroman> Taneb: "this is what the format is"?
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15:08:07 <Taneb> mroman, a canonical top grammar thing
15:08:11 <Taneb> LambdaExpression := ...
15:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42112&oldid=41856 * 160.85.232.191 * (+81) /* External resources */ adding ESOSC link.
15:09:23 <mroman> do you have a suggested wording?
15:09:32 <nortti> hmm, what happened to ESOSC brainfuck?
15:09:46 <mroman> nortti: I think it died due to no consent could be reached?
15:09:48 <Taneb> mroman, make that clear
15:10:22 <nortti> ah, ok. a bit confusing that it seems to have been skipped in numbering
15:11:14 <mroman> lambda calculus syntax was D5
15:11:19 <mroman> I guess I should keep it D5
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15:13:47 <mroman> Taneb: http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D5-R5.TXT <- like that
15:13:52 <mroman> or again: Suggested wording :D?
15:14:08 <Taneb> mroman, that's good
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16:04:19 <mroman> 'aight. Then I guess it goes into waiting for approval state @ nortti Taneb
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16:35:32 <Taneb> mroman, I also approve
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17:15:37 <int-e> wait, \x . y is illegal?
17:16:20 <int-e> (and do you want printable letters or characters in variable names?)
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17:16:54 <int-e> finally I'd worry about associativity, since a b c can be parsed in two ways (though everybody knows which one is the "right" one)
17:18:52 <int-e> wouldn't this be simpler for "lambda"? lambda = L, { space }, { variable, { space } }, variable, { space }, ".", term
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17:28:39 <mroman> int-e: no. term has a leading { space }
17:29:11 <int-e> I was worried about the space before the .
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17:29:41 <int-e> I see now that this is allowed; I fail to see the purpose of the [ variable ]
17:29:55 <int-e> In any case the productions look unnecessarily complicated.
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17:31:59 <mroman> L, { space }, { variable, { space } }, variable, { space }, ".", term; should indeed work
17:32:05 <mroman> and is more concise you're right.
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17:37:14 <int-e> I would probably end up with something like http://sprunge.us/SIfJ
17:37:40 <int-e> (I mainly did that as an exercise for myself.)
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17:47:53 <int-e> Oh, writing parsers without tokenization is so tedious. Now "abc" can be up to three variables...
17:48:12 <int-e> s/parsers/grammars/
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19:17:34 <fizzie> Calling back to yesterday's discussion about the "single USB-C port only in MacBook Whateveritwas", apparently we just released an updated version of the "Pixel" Chromebook, and it has... a USB-C port both for charging and peripherals. (Except it's got two of those, and two regular USB 3 type-B ports. Also I think it's not quite as crazy-expensive as the old Pixel, even if it's still quite so.)
19:19:14 <fizzie> I'm not so happy about USB type-C ports in general, but I guess if it turns out all new laptops will use it for charging (instead of having custom charger ports) that's a win?
19:20:09 <fizzie> "-- universal charger[3] make it easy to take Pixel anywhere --" "[3] Charger only works with USB Type-C devices." nice footnote.
19:20:17 <fizzie> And/or nice definition of "universal".
19:21:14 <fizzie> (Also I meant type A ports instead of type B in the above. I keep mixing those up.)
19:22:35 <int-e> meh, another USB connector?!
19:23:08 <int-e> (old news apparently but I haven't been paying attention)
19:23:16 <fizzie> Yes, yes... but standardized chargers!
19:24:00 <fizzie> On the other hand, another USB connector. :/
19:27:23 <fizzie> Also the standard type C size is pretty small (not too much larger than micro-B), so maybe they won't make mini-C and micro-C next. (Yeah, right.)
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19:37:22 <int-e> and 24 pins, crazy.
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19:51:20 <HackEgo> [U+1D64 LATIN SUBSCRIPT SMALL LETTER U]
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20:41:08 <fizzie> int-e: Those are some pretty small pins.
20:41:13 <fizzie> int-e: Must be expensive to make, too.
20:41:55 <fizzie> (Well, that was just pure guesswork, I don't know anything about making hardware. Maybe it's not.)
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21:44:31 <oren> ok i'm an idiot. my monitor was glitching up, and i tried to screenshot it
21:44:57 <oren> obviously the computer has no idea about glitches in the monitor
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21:47:17 <oerjan> well at least it proves the error isn't somewhere earlier
21:49:15 <oren> true. clearly the error is between the display memory and the LCD panel
21:50:21 <oren> although I should have known that, given that I have been solving the glitches by punching the back of the screen
21:52:06 <oren> Someone should make a laptop with a webcam that points at the screen
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21:54:55 <fizzie> Or maybe just a portable reflective surface you can hold in your hands.
21:55:39 <boily> helloren. fizziello. hellørjan.
21:55:47 <boily> oren: what do you glitches look like?
21:58:12 <oren> It looks like the screen freezing and then slowly turning white until I hit it
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22:47:32 <oren> `unidecode ー一～
22:47:33 <HackEgo> [U+30FC KATAKANA-HIRAGANA PROLONGED SOUND MARK] [U+4E00 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4E00] [U+FF5E FULLWIDTH TILDE]
22:49:30 <ais523> that last one is a tilde
22:49:53 <HackEgo> [U+FF0D FULLWIDTH HYPHEN-MINUS]
22:51:21 <oren> [U+FFUU FULLWIDTH WHAT-THE-FUCK]
22:51:50 <fizzie> `run unicode 'EN DASH' 'EM DASH' # I'm missing a compose key
22:52:50 <fizzie> The difference between e{n,m} dashes is pretty subtle (if it even exists) on this particular monospace font.
22:53:06 <fizzie> Maybe that makes sense, given the names.
22:53:39 <oren> On my terminal settings the em dash overlies the next charcter
22:53:55 <ais523> it's very clear in this proportional one
22:54:02 <ais523> but in a monospace font, 'm' and 'n' have the same width
22:54:10 <ais523> so you'd expect em and en dashes to have the same width, too
22:54:26 <fizzie> Yes, that was the "makes sense" part.
22:54:38 <oren> I think a lot of the characters are being taken from some other font who
22:54:53 <oren> is porposional
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22:56:12 <oren> Yeah. This font only supports characters from Shift-JIS
22:58:37 <boily> my apartment just vibrated, with a dull sound of somebody having tripped...
23:02:45 <oerjan> porpoisonal sound fonts
23:03:22 <oerjan> boily: is someone living upstairs twh
23:03:45 <oren> Interesting fact: shift-jis has twelve characters whose origins and meanings are entirely unknown:墸壥妛彁挧暃椢槞蟐袮閠駲
23:04:11 <oren> These later made it into unicode
23:04:35 <lifthrasiir> actually, 彁 is the only character with completely unknown origin
23:04:49 <oerjan> oren: they're a magical incantation that causes cthulhu to trip 5 minutes in the past hth
23:04:51 <lifthrasiir> others have partial infos about them available
23:05:42 <oren> Do they have a meaning?
23:07:32 <oren> Ah, that makes sense
23:07:44 <lifthrasiir> 彁 is unique because there is no clue about the origin of error (or if any, plausible origin)
23:08:04 <lifthrasiir> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0208#Kanji_from_unknown_sources
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23:10:55 <ais523> so, do those kanji have any actual pronunciation?
23:11:02 <boily> oren: there aren't nobody upstairs. and as far as I know, there is no upstairs.
23:11:13 <ais523> I'm guessing no, because IIRC you cant pronounce a kanji just from its shape
23:11:33 <boily> I'm sure some demented entomologist'll come with a meaning for 蟐 someday.
23:11:34 <lifthrasiir> ais523: in fact, to some degress, you can.
23:11:47 <oren> http://kanjitisiki.com/yuureimozi/ Some have pronounciations listed on this website
23:12:10 <lifthrasiir> most kanjis (or hanjas or hanzis, anyway) are phono-semantic compounds and their sounds can be inferred from a part of the character
23:12:19 <fizzie> Hm. I tried to find a lounge with a VW bus in it, but only found a Star Trek corridor, a ball pit, and a pile of rooms named after Star Trek characters. I think I'm in the wrong building.
23:12:27 <oren> oh, yeah. "read the side"
23:13:06 <lifthrasiir> (when I say "most", I really mean about 90%)
23:14:28 <boily> fizzie: ask Taneb. he has experience being sci-filly mislead.
23:14:40 <boily> (btw, what is the adverb for sci-fi?)
23:16:05 <ais523> I'm not sure you can make arbitrary noun modifiers into adverbs
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23:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i've seen SFnal used seriously, though that is of course a different abbreviation
23:17:36 <elliott> I had a dream where some asshole joined this channel and /msg'd me multiple times when I was asleep to tell him to take his side in arguments and enforce it with op powers
23:18:24 <oren> sci-fi -> science-fiction -> science-fictionally -> scifixily
23:19:05 <fizzie> boily: Found the bus. I was in fact in the wrong building.
23:21:34 * oerjan hasn't got to the part of the log with elliott's dreams in it yet
23:22:12 <boily> fizzie was in the wrong building. oren drives the bus.
23:22:27 <oren> Hmm... it seems that while the On-yomi generally follow the "read the side" rule, the kun-yomi are all over the place. makes sense i guess since the kun-yomi are just japanese words assigned to a chinese character with a close meaning
23:23:02 <boily> on'yomi are easier than their kunterparts.
23:23:26 <oren> WWWWWW is much easier to type than lololol
23:23:59 <ais523> alternating between two characters is often faster than spamming one
23:24:05 <ais523> lololololololololololololol
23:24:12 <ais523> yep, the ws are more painful
23:24:13 <lifthrasiir> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
23:24:17 <elliott> oerjan: er, I just woke up and said that now.
23:24:29 <oerjan> ais523: you forgot to capitalize the ws too
23:24:40 <ais523> oerjan: assume I have a caps lock key
23:24:58 <boily> my caps lock key was remapped to Esc a long, long time ago.
23:25:07 <ProofTechnique> Also, I hope you have a terrible sense of humor, or you will definitely get RSI.
23:25:10 <oerjan> elliott: i am sorry, i am going to assume your dream was psychic until i've finished the logs hth
23:25:11 <oren> Um, I don't "spam" W I hold it down
23:25:11 <boily> also, as a pianist expert I say lol is easier than www.
23:25:31 <boily> oren: neophyte. plebeian. real men spam w.
23:25:49 <ais523> holding it down's limited by the keyboard repeat rate
23:26:02 <ais523> I guess you could increase the keyboard repeat rate just to spam nicovideo more easily
23:26:09 <lifthrasiir> my keyboard's repeat rate is sufficiently high that I have no problem spamming wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
23:27:12 <oerjan> saved by the syntax bell
23:27:25 <elliott> oerjan: when I "woke up" in the dream I was grouchy but vaguely satisfied by the thought that he's probably the one I should ban instead
23:27:32 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: it's a vampire bat hth
23:28:40 <oerjan> the only word that's an emoticon of itself
23:28:49 <Melvar> That would have a v, would it not?
23:29:20 <oerjan> this owl is from the czernobyl area hth
23:29:38 <boily> TIL a chernobyl owl represents itself when written.
23:30:10 <FireFly> "chernobyl owl" doesn't look like I imagine a chernobyl owl would look like, to me
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23:31:06 <ProofTechnique> Chernobyl Owls are very important in representation theory
23:32:42 <oren> Unicode doesn't appear to have an owl yet
23:37:38 <oren> At least I can say 🔨 💻 💥
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23:38:35 <HackEgo> U+1F528 HAMMER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 a8 UTF-16BE: d83ddd28 Decimal: 🔨 \ 🔨 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+1F4BB PERSONAL COMPUTER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 bb UTF-16BE: d83ddcbb Decimal: &#
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23:38:54 <HackEgo> U+1F4A5 COLLISION SYMBOL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 a5 UTF-16BE: d83ddca5 Decimal: 💥 \ 💥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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23:41:07 <oren> Or I can tell a story: 👮 💴 👯 👇 👄 👅
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23:44:39 <oren> I have no idea why "woman with bunny ears" is a legitimate unicode character
23:44:51 <oren> but I think I just used it correctly
23:50:10 <oerjan> elliott: nothing in the logs, i guess your dream must be precognitive then hth
23:50:51 <ais523> oren: emoticons most likely
23:52:04 <oren> 👨 💸 📉 💢 ; 👨 💴 👔 ,💥 📈 -- if only this were true
23:53:01 <ProofTechnique> Stress out about losing money. Buy suit. Explosive growth?
23:54:36 <oren> Unfortunately wearing a suit has virtually no effect on how much money you make...
23:56:46 <ProofTechnique> Though how much money you make can have an effect on how many suits you wear. Or how many suits you make, depending on what side of things you're one.
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00:13:32 <oren> Now I want to use these in my next assignment. "Let 🍩 (x) be the proposition that x is a donut..."
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00:27:04 <HackEgo> U+1F369 DOUGHNUT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8d a9 UTF-16BE: d83cdf69 Decimal: 🍩 \ 🍩 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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01:06:35 <oerjan> grmble no confirmation whether my yafgc comment was posted/sent to moderation or summarily refused (i included both an Ø and a url, although to the same site)
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01:08:40 <oerjan> oh well if it doesn't go through then they don't deserve my wisdom anyway.
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02:41:39 <oren> a triangle is a quadrilateral with two identical vertices
02:44:24 <oren> however, a quadrilateral is NOT a pair of triangles with two vertices in common
02:45:39 <oren> Why? because the other two points also need to be guaranteed to be on opposite sides of the line formed by the two common vertices
02:56:26 <oren> nevermind, I'mma figure out my newest language idea instead. So, suppose you have some stateful code with local variables, inside a subroutine called foo. I propose a construct where, when calling foo, the return value is not merely a value, but is a dictionary of all the local state variables of foo.
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09:15:24 <Taneb> ...next year I'll have a module in what is essentially Eodermdrome++
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09:31:17 <Taneb> http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/undergraduate/modules/grat.html
09:31:49 <f|`-`|f> I should probably start being alive to understand
09:33:07 <ais523> the "description" and "aims" are the same, except that the "aims" starts with a couple of bullet points that aren't in the "description"
09:35:03 <ais523> also, Firefox's new search box is so much worse than the old one
09:35:16 <ais523> for someone like me who uses site-specific search a lot
09:35:30 <f|`-`|f> I don't know how to site-specific
09:35:43 <f|`-`|f> isn't that `site:<<site>>`
09:35:55 <ais523> no, that's using Google or the like to search one site
09:36:03 <ais523> I mean, searching sites using the site's own search engine
09:36:12 <ais523> e.g. I can set the Firefox dropdown box to search Esolang, or Wikipedia, or the like
09:36:22 <ais523> except I used to be able to select the search engine first, then search
09:36:48 <ais523> now, I have to enter the search query first, then click on the search engine, and pressing return will always search the default search engine (which can only be changed through configuration)
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09:48:02 <ais523> `unicode LOWERCASE GREEK LETTER THETA
09:48:20 <ais523> `unicode LOWERCASE GREEK THETA
09:48:29 <ais523> `unicode SMALL GREEK LETTER THETA
09:48:39 <HackEgo> U+0398 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER THETA \ UTF-8: ce 98 UTF-16BE: 0398 Decimal: Θ \ Θ (θ) \ Lowercase: U+03B8 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+03B8 GREEK SMALL LETTER THETA \ UTF-8: ce b8 UTF-16BE: 03b8 Decimal: θ \ θ (Θ) \ Uppercase: U+0398 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \
09:49:28 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER TAU
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11:18:12 <Taneb> fnordbot, how are you doing?
11:18:13 <fnordbot> Taneb: respects." " who said that?" " try to explain to her to know that in to the reader's digest. glad you could make it a paying proposition. he had no discernible mongoloid characteristics, and the only vestiges left in mr l prosser was," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. " at a wild guess, i'd be all." " i just don't say
11:19:03 <Taneb> When I'm not panicking about this coursework that's in for tomorrow, I shall learn J!
11:22:35 <int-e> Oh I need to learn Plankalkül.
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13:18:42 <Taneb> http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31858156 :((((
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13:33:10 -!- int-e has set topic: RIP Terry Pratchett | I'm a fungot trapped in a house with Internet but no one there to connect me | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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13:41:52 <Taneb> He has been my favourite author for quite a long time now, it is so sad to know that he is not around any more
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13:59:22 <int-e> Hmm, who else died... Sam Simon?
14:00:16 <int-e> Oh, that was a long time ago.
14:00:26 <Taneb> That was like last week
14:00:42 <int-e> a bit over two weeks
14:01:01 <int-e> oh wait. 13 days. stupid february
14:01:28 <int-e> a lot of people have died in the meantime.
14:03:00 <AndoDaan> How many people will mourn your passing do you think?
14:05:44 <AndoDaan> That not too bad. Close family and a best friend?
14:07:07 <int-e> Maybe 10, but yeah, close family and perhaps a colleague or two.
14:09:05 <int-e> And I guess (can I say hope without sounding like an asshole?) that I'll survive most of that close family, so the number may become smaller.
14:10:34 <int-e> AndoDaan: to be fair, I didn't hear of any notable death between Leonard Nimoy and Sam Simon, but the latter seemed significant enough.
14:10:51 <Jafet> Live a life such that your death will be celebrated by millions
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14:12:44 <AndoDaan_> int-e, we got lucky with Ford surviving.
14:13:39 <AndoDaan_> "Be Hitler" sage advice from Jafet
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14:16:36 <Jafet> Nah, that's going a bit too far. You shouldn't kill yourself just because you want to be celebrated right now.
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14:27:26 <zzo38> Did you download the new Famicompo?
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15:01:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42113&oldid=42108 * Ypnypn * (+0) /* Constants */
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18:50:06 <zzo38> Apparently the IO monad was actually invented in 1965.
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19:14:09 <oren> Everything was invented about 1960 something.
19:14:38 <oren> Nothing ever actually happened prior to 1961
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19:15:32 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:15:57 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:16:12 <AndoDaan> I doing well, thank you. Yourself?
19:16:57 <int-e> We're from the Internet. :P
19:17:12 <oren> canada = internet
19:17:18 <zzo38> int-e: Are you sure?
19:17:47 <int-e> zzo38: I think so...
19:18:00 <AndoDaan> "but i can speak some english"
19:18:20 <AndoDaan> Did I get that right. Can I speak Turkish?
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19:36:49 <AndoDaan> Nope, can't think of anything clever.
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23:40:40 <oren> I have invented a system for representing time of day, called "global color time". For example, right now it is Red 100
23:41:13 <oren> in three hours it will be purple 40
23:43:29 <oren> the six colors of the color wheel are assigned 240 minutes each
23:53:15 <oren> Since there's no "first" color on a color wheel, there is no need for time zones in this system
23:54:14 <Zuu> well, there kindof is, since noon is different time in different zones
23:55:26 <oren> Right but people in Toronto can just remember that noon in Toronto is blue 115
23:55:35 <Zuu> its just, the zone info is needed to figure out what time of day, the actual color is, rather than figuring out what time corresponds to what time of day in a different zone
23:55:46 <oren> er, that's not right, but you see wheat i mean
23:55:52 <Zuu> That's no different than just using plain numbers
23:56:11 <Zuu> just map all the colors to sequential numbers, bam
23:56:27 <Zuu> the color aspect solves nothing :P
23:56:34 <oren> But see, here there is no need to have different nubmers in different places
23:56:57 <Zuu> say red is 1
23:56:59 <oren> red 116 is red 116 throughout the whole earth
23:57:27 <Zuu> then 1 italy is noon, while 1 in spain is afternoon
23:57:35 <Zuu> same difference
23:58:01 <Zuu> the entire color thing is pointless :>
23:58:12 <Zuu> it's a needless obfuscation
23:58:25 <oren> but the sequential numbers give one time zone, britain to be exact, precedence
23:58:27 <zzo38> Maybe, although, we still have names of months, days of weeks, and astrological signs.
23:58:48 <Zuu> oren: MAP RED TO 1
23:59:00 <Zuu> use your scheme saying one instead of red!
23:59:15 <zzo38> Red is also the lowest frequency of colors compared to blue.
23:59:28 <Zuu> the colors are pointless
23:59:46 <Zuu> in any case, the timezone info cannot be ignored
23:59:56 <Zuu> colors, numbers, anything
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23:30:46 <oerjan> i find your misspelling disturbing, and also irrelevant
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23:32:02 <oerjan> typically that there would be a discussion ongoing at the moment :P
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23:32:21 <oerjan> although i actually pinged Gregor, so there
23:32:28 <Gregor> Yeah, that's the important part X-D
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23:51:15 <zzo38> I hope you will fix it soon?
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00:00:59 <ais523> wow, the rules of baseball have the most repetitive URL I've ever seen: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_rules.jsp
00:01:26 <zzo38> O, yes it is very repetitive
00:02:36 <pikhq> But is it official? Or MLB?
00:02:41 <pikhq> I need to know for certain.
00:08:51 <Koen_> interestingly google tells me mlb may stand for "major league baseball" or "minor league baseball", so your url is repetitive but not unambiguous.
00:15:19 <Koen_> also those appear to be the 2014 official rules, so i'm not sure they work in 2015. and by providing us with this url you committed a copyright infringement: "No part of the Official Baseball Rules may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording or any information storage and retrieval system now known or to be invented, without permission in writing from the Office
00:15:19 <Koen_> Commissioner of Baseball."
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00:16:25 <zzo38> Is the URL part of the rules too?
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00:17:20 <ais523> Koen_: I'm not convinced that the URL itself is part of the rules
00:17:20 <Koen_> I guess not but they are a means to transmit them
00:17:26 <ais523> even if it is, you can't copyright single words or short phrases
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00:21:16 <Koen_> ais523: my point is that it is weird to forbid to reproduce or transmit electronically a pdf that is freely available
00:21:34 <ais523> I suspect that they don't want people sharing the PDF via any method other than their website
00:22:23 <Taneb> Although you can transmit via a medium invented at the time of writing but unknown
00:22:31 <Taneb> eg Apache Wave probably
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00:34:39 <zzo38> No they mean you aren't allowed to print out and photocopy it.
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00:36:53 <zzo38> Although, writing your own document which is describing the same stuff might be OK.
00:37:30 <zzo38> So that way you could make a document using a different file format such as .txt
00:37:54 <int-e> Koen_: it's funny, you did actually reproduce a part of the PDF.
00:38:20 <zzo38> Yes but that is the copyright notice; they copy that everywhere including in other books too
00:38:29 <int-e> (arguably not a copyrightable part, but more so than a URL)
00:39:14 <ais523> int-e: Debian's copyright parser complained that my summary of the copyright status didn't explain the copyright of the summary of the copyright status
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00:39:55 <ais523> so I improvised this: http://trac.nethack4.org/browser/copyright#L5
00:40:13 <Koen_> int-e: it is part of the pdf but is it part of the Official Baseball Rules? also the url isn't part of the rules but it is a means of transmitting them
00:43:02 <int-e> Koen_: the transmission of the rules is performed by the browser once you click on a link on the page that is referred to by the given URL
00:43:32 <int-e> So it's like giving somebody the address of a book shop that sells exactly one book.
00:43:51 <Koen_> well, that's transmitting from the server to my computer, but it was already on ais's computer
00:44:06 <Koen_> and it would never have been on mine if he hadn't given the url
00:44:46 <Koen_> so, even though the pdf did not physically travel from ais's computer to mine, it was transmitted
00:44:56 <Koen_> just like a wave doesn't need matter to travel
00:45:32 <int-e> Koen_: the transmission was done by the mlb.mlb.com server; presumably the owners have the required written permission to perform that transmission.
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00:46:08 <int-e> Koen_: If they do not, it's them that violate copyright, not ais523 or you.
00:46:22 <Koen_> my point is, this irc channel took part in the transmission
00:46:41 <Koen_> then i guess this settles that
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00:48:49 <fizzie> I cannot get this Internet configured right. :/
00:49:08 <int-e> fungot: how do you do?
00:49:10 <Taneb> fungot, you're alive!!!
00:49:10 <fungot> Taneb: maybe two, actually, not so complicated you constantly get lost... but i'm sure i'll manage to sort that out :)
00:49:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:49:27 <fizzie> I have a ugly workaround so that I could get fungot up, but that's all.
00:49:27 <fungot> fizzie: what other kinds of sequences such as make-vector and make-string. later on
00:51:07 <fungot> olsner: that's one of the google image search, even
00:51:23 <int-e> Koen_: What's your take on this: If I have a language model trained on the text of a book, does that make it a derived work of this book? If so, would it still qualify as fair use?
00:52:13 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
00:52:21 <fungot> int-e: " you've got me there.' she drummed her fingers on the table, chair,' said cohen.
00:53:13 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:53:34 <fungot> olsner: but i was under the impression that it just compiles code to sql. " you don't have anything fnord right, then
00:54:18 <fungot> oerjan: there was also a friggin' syntax replacement for c would be inconvenient
00:54:29 <fizzie> The Internet is VDSL2 PTM, with PPPoE over the Ethernet frames that go in PTM. It works when I put the bundled router-modem into "routed" mode (so that it negotiates the PPPoE link), and I've even partially got the 8-IP subnet the ISP assigned kinda-sorta working (the router-modem had a "public subnet" mode, which makes it do some sort of proxyarp trickery, but that means all the public IP ...
00:54:35 <fizzie> ... addresses need to be directly in the Ethernet segment formed by the LAN ports of the router-modem, and with distinct MACs), but it's ugly and wastes a public IP for the router-modem.
00:54:39 <fungot> olsner: doesn't chez scheme, and boolean contexts, such as t, notably the fact that i'm using is probably written in c.
00:55:04 <Koen_> int-e: not sure what a language model trained is
00:55:15 <fizzie> Logic says it *should* work just fine if I toggle the router-modem to "bridged" mode, and have my regular Linux box speak PPPoE into the Ethernet interface, but it just doesn't go.
00:55:55 <fizzie> (I've ran the manual "pppoe-discovery" tool and tcpdumped it on the Linux box, and the PPPoE "PADI" packets are going out, but no answers are coming in.)
00:56:27 <fizzie> And the router-modem only has this custom CLI and no way of getting a proper shell (so I could go and see how they've configured it), which is always so infuriating.
00:56:45 <mitchs> all hail fungot, master of fnords
00:56:45 <fungot> mitchs: the argument in the function itself
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01:00:31 <fizzie> int-e: If you have an unpruned fixed-length n-gram model of sufficient length that all the counts for the highest-n grams are 1, you can reconstruct the entire book, which is maybe kind of dubious copyrightically. (Of course you normally wouldn't. Especially since fungot doesn't do backoff, so you'd only get verbatim quotes.)
01:00:31 <fungot> fizzie: and -s restrict that scope
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01:24:21 <zzo38> Sometimes in a 6502 code you might not want to use CMP for comparison so you might use EOR instead, such as if you do not want the carry flag to be affected.
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02:28:47 <Sgeo> It's possible that I talked about it but never did it
02:29:00 <Sgeo> Thinking about it, I more distinctly remember thinking about Deadfish in Tcl
02:29:11 <zzo38> Do ARCFOUR with a (log2(256!)+16) bit key (this number of bits isn't a integer)
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02:48:04 <oren> god damn it is the return type of these numpy functions documented ANYWHERE
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02:50:24 <zzo38> I have never seen it so I don't know
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02:54:09 <oren> Ohhhh so when I do A * B it tries to do it element wise?!?! of all the crap i have to deal with, matrices that don't multiply right
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02:58:30 <zzo38> Maybe there is a separate function for matrix multiplication?
02:58:57 <oren> Yeah, I have to do np.dot(A,B) which gets pretty ugly
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03:11:18 <oren> Also conflating dot product with matrix product is... iffy
03:13:23 <oren> really v dot u is v matrix product u transpose
03:13:47 <oren> er, the opposit
03:14:44 <oerjan> hm _surely_ we already had an ~ATH article?
03:15:59 <FreeFull> oren: Yeah, dot doesn't seem right for that
03:19:44 <oren> What we really need is a math library based not on matrices but on Tensors
03:20:01 <zzo38> Yes, that would help too, I believe you
03:21:52 <Sgeo> From Ashes is gorgeous
03:24:09 <oren> well even if my code is made ugly by this library, it works at least
03:25:11 <oren> which my C neural network code does not
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03:28:09 <oren> ~ATH is conceptually interesting but its syntax is generic
03:30:06 <oren> Hmm... would it not be possible to automatically chack obituaries?
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03:32:33 <oren> Actually, deaths of people would be much easier to check for than animals or objects
03:33:14 <oren> Still very hard, but I bet google could do it
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03:34:27 <oerjan> death of public decency
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03:37:54 <oren> alternatively, an implementation could just assume all named individuals are alive, and use actuarial tables
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03:49:16 <zzo38> With the proper virtual tables in SQLite you could receive such information (unless it is already in SQLite format in which case you don't need virtual tables); I have written extension to read JSON and RDF Turtle documents as virtual tables, so if it is those formats you can access them in this way.
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04:02:13 <zzo38> But I don't know what format such actuarial tables would be in?
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04:17:40 <oerjan> some actual format, i should assume.
04:21:07 <oerjan> ah and just as someone wiped ~ATH from wikipedia's esolang page.
04:28:02 <zzo38> Why do you like to define pi (or tau) in terms of geometry instead of in the other way?
04:28:25 <FreeFull> zzo38: What other way? Infinite series?
04:29:07 <zzo38> Well, there are several possible other ways, but what I was thinking of is e to power of i times tau makes 1
04:29:27 <zzo38> Being the smallest positive solution
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04:35:14 <FreeFull> The principal value of ln(1) is 0
04:35:18 <oren> hmm, wait why doesn't that work
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04:38:06 <oren> Greek letters being fullwidth is so inconvenient when the terminal assumes they are half
04:38:08 <zzo38> Zero isn't positive anyways
04:38:38 <zzo38> oren: That's the problem with using Unicode in this way.
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04:42:43 <zzo38> For a terminal screen such encoding would seem to work better when wide character are 2-bytes long and narrow character are 1-bytes long.
04:43:28 <oren> Hmm... what happens if I switch the encoding to Shift-JIS?
04:43:48 <pikhq> Sigh, the correct thing in general is wcswidth.
04:44:10 <pikhq> (tells you the width of a wchar_t string in terminal cells)
04:46:00 <oren> Hey that actually works!
04:46:35 <oren> I just switch terminal settings to Shift-JIS and bang, correct spacing
04:47:09 <pikhq> Yeah, your terminal and your everything else need to agree on what the charset is for things to work.
04:47:21 <pikhq> (BTW Greek letters are half width normally. :))
04:48:17 <oren> In Shift-JIS they made all two byte characters fullwidth and all one byte characters half-width... I guess for simplicity
04:48:39 <zzo38> oren: Yes, that's a good idea when doing fix-pitch text.
04:49:25 <zzo38> Unicode is good for using to convert between encodings, that you can store them in tables (you can even add new codes if converting characters that aren't in Unicode), but for general purpose works badly for several reasons really and is pretty stupid as far as I am concerned.
04:49:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Unicode is not as complex as you might think.
04:50:14 <pikhq> Though most things that implement it suck at it.
04:51:49 <zzo38> It is not even complete
04:52:46 <zzo38> Complex scripts and ligatures and text direction and so on should belong in the font metrics file, and program that uses it should only read the font metrics file to determine such thing.
04:55:10 <zzo38> The program should only look at, it is trying to render character code 499488291 therefore you have to look up 499488291 in the font metrics file to determine the proper text direction, kerning, ligatures, default line breaking setting, extending into margin, pointer into font glyph file, etc
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05:10:48 <oren> zzo38: most problems with unicode come from its insisting that you can convert characters from any charset X to unicode and back and not lose anything
05:11:39 <zzo38> oren: That is certainly some of it; as I said, it is even incomplete
05:11:47 <oren> (where anything can mean differences only visible to computer and not onscreen)
05:15:05 <oren> So, unicode is bugward compatible to the bugs of like 30 charsets, combines
05:15:25 <oren> which is why it is so damn buggy
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05:15:57 <zzo38> Either way rendering properties should belong in the metrics file rather than in the program
05:16:20 <zzo38> (Which also has the advantage in case you need to define your own characters)
05:20:06 <oren> I'm not sure under what conditions I would be defining my own characters... I guess conlangers would be ahppy?
05:20:20 <zzo38> Yes, that's one use
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05:56:21 <zzo38> 8/k7/P2b2P1/KP1Pn2P/4R3/8/6np/8 White to play and win.
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15:50:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42126&oldid=42125 * GermanyBoy * (+86) added some categories
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20:52:19 <zzo38> How many esolangs as ARCFOUR been implemented in so far?
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22:40:02 <ais523> so, a problem I've come across
22:41:02 <ais523> I need to transfer files to and from a remote system, but my only connection to it is an ssh connection that goes through multiple levels of terminal multiplexers (screen, tmux and the like)
22:41:16 <ais523> it's a Linux system with no direct network connectivity, it has a working C compiler but not much else
22:42:28 <ais523> I've already figured out how to transfer files there (send over a uudecode impl, compile it, then copy-and-paste uucode)
22:42:57 <ais523> but going the other way is rather harder; terminal multiplexers don't intercept a stream of printable characters you're sending to the inside terminal, but they certainly mess with the stream of characters that comes back
22:44:05 <ais523> I guess one method that would work would be to give uucode on the way back a screenful at a time (with delays added), then run a vt100 parser on the result after receiving it and translate back into uucode that way
22:44:10 <ais523> delays would be needed to know where the frames were
22:44:34 <zzo38> Yes that is one way
22:44:46 <coppro> ais523: can you not just open a nc connection?
22:44:58 <zzo38> But why do you even have such a system?
22:45:09 <ais523> coppro: the only connection I have to inside this is through multiple layers of terminal multiplexers
22:45:14 <coppro> ais523: so open a new one
22:45:15 <ais523> basically it's a case of nested VMs
22:45:39 <coppro> or is the innermost one not internet-connected?
22:45:40 <ais523> I think one of them doesn't even have an emulated network card
22:45:45 <ais523> and is using an emulated serial terminal
22:46:01 <ais523> yeah, this seemed like a fun enough problem to ask #esoteric about
22:46:08 <ais523> the solution may well be "change the VM setup somehow"
22:46:22 <zzo38> Yes, if you can change the VM setup, then you probably should
22:46:29 <ais523> however, I'd like to find a solution under the current parameters just out of intellectual curiosity
22:47:23 <zzo38> Yes; I suppose just telling it to display and then parse the display would probably be the way if without changing the VM.
22:49:21 <ais523> but what sort of information do we put on the display? can it be done without delays? perhaps not because the terminal emulators might elide everything that's output, but what if they don't?
22:49:31 <ais523> I'm going to experiment
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22:53:59 <fizzie> ais523: I've used screen's output logging (C-a H, writes to "screenlog.n") for data transfer (with just "uuencode file" writing to standard output on the "sending" side) but you're certainly right that it's conceivable that some terminal-optimization step somewhere on the path might drop stuff.
22:54:16 <ais523> fizzie: right, and there's more than one layer of terminal emulator here
22:54:28 <ais523> I ran `seq 0 10000` and recorded the output
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22:55:03 <ais523> it sometimes repeats sections, with a bunch of "\1b[4C\r" in between
22:55:38 <ais523> and ESC [ 4 C is "cursor 4 columns right"
22:56:03 <ais523> and then at the end it does a "move cursor to top-left"
22:56:08 <ais523> so yeah, a lot of redundant VT-100 in here
22:56:43 <ais523> I haven't noticed any omitted numbers though
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22:58:56 <fizzie> A line-oriented framing format (and a suitably slow speed between lines so that you would "see" every line at least once) combined with a "dumb" observer that just looks for the line start/end markers sounds like it might have some chance of working. Though it's certainly not guaranteed. I remember using lynx-in-screen on a slow-ish serial terminal, and it did quite a lot of trickery for ...
22:59:02 <fizzie> ... redraw, including scrolling arbitrary-looking rectangles around to send as little over the wire as possible.
22:59:26 <fizzie> (I don't know where most of that behaviour came from.)
22:59:45 <ais523> my current plan is to express lines as [sequence number][uucode content] and then strip out all the VT-100 codes
23:00:28 <ais523> we should be able to detect missing sequence numbers, at least
23:02:54 <int-e> that's a funny problem.
23:03:09 <ais523> yep, I thought #esoteric would like it
23:03:13 <int-e> add a checksum to each line?
23:03:33 <ais523> could do, although just md5sum on the resulting file would likely be good enough
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23:45:11 <oren> sounds like we need an implementation of "ip over tmuxxers"
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23:54:50 <boily> oren: helloren. ip over tmuxxer?
23:56:29 <zzo38> Yes, make up such program
00:18:17 * oerjan was vaguely hoping for oerjour but guesses it's too late
00:19:26 <boily> tomorrow morning! don't lose faith!
00:21:29 <boily> すみませんが、ちょっと違います。「ボアリ」です。
00:22:20 <ais523> oren: actually I was reminded of TCP quite a bit
00:22:29 <ais523> sequence numbers and checksums and all that
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00:58:42 <oerjan> i may eventually have to learn japanese just to keep up with the channel.
01:05:31 <oerjan> also, i'm with oren on the ip over tmuxxers.
01:06:59 <ais523> I'm calling this program tmuxip, although it isn't duplex
01:09:22 <boily> oerjan: this chännel's lingua franca should be some Norwegian-Japanese pidgin crossover.
01:10:24 <oren> NoxJp is this channels OTP
01:11:54 <oerjan> there used to be a norwegian-russian pidgin but i don't think there's a norwegian-japanese one.
01:15:51 <oren> Ooh, norwegian has retroflex consonants, cool!
01:16:18 <boily> these have to be sacrificed for the greater good.
01:16:41 <oerjan> jeg wakarimasu for lite japansk til å lage en god eksempelsetning desu ka.
01:17:09 <oren> both norwegian and japanese have pitch accents, interesting
01:17:27 <oerjan> i read that in the language construction kit recently
01:17:51 <boily> Noxjp is definitely this chännel's OTP. incomprehensible, sounds like some Necronomicon juice extract, and has a few å sprinkled in.
01:18:25 * boily is glad to see zompist.com is still alive and as ugly as ever ^^
01:18:53 <oerjan> boily: many norwegian dialects (including mine) also have a weird kind of retroflex l, i'd say that cannot be sacrificed hth
01:19:36 <oerjan> especially if we use that for both r and l
01:20:40 <boily> tdnrh, but for the sake of good international relations I'll let it go.
01:21:17 <oren> holy crap norwegian also has adjectives that change like verbs
01:21:29 <oerjan> oren: um where did you read that
01:22:14 <oerjan> i don't think that is true in any meaningful sense
01:23:12 <oren> oh, I see, your verbs don't change by gender but your nounds do?
01:23:19 <oren> adjectives I mean?
01:23:37 <oerjan> yes, gender is for nouns and adjectives
01:24:09 <oerjan> hungarian btw, inflects verbs for the definiteness of the object.
01:24:48 <oren> the verbs don't even change for plurality? even english does that
01:25:04 <oerjan> no, we lost person and number on verbs long ago
01:25:47 <oren> but somehow you kept gender agreement on adjectives...
01:26:03 <oerjan> _and_ developed definiteness agreement hth
01:27:22 <oerjan> although it's sort of wishy-washy in that for most adjectives, all forms are the same except for the singular indefinite ones
01:28:37 <oerjan> although "liten" (little, small) has kept an unusual variety of forms, which includes cognates of both en:little and en:small
01:29:31 <fizzie> We don't inflect words too much either. *whistles unconvincingly*
01:30:21 <fizzie> The vowel disharmony made my left eye hurt.
01:31:30 <oerjan> * boily is glad to see zompist.com is still alive and as ugly as ever ^^ <-- good content doesn't need modern web design. in fact no one does.
01:31:45 <boily> oerjan: which case is it again?
01:32:34 <fizzie> boily: I guess that's all right.
01:32:36 <oerjan> fizzie: i was divided on whether to use -A or -Ä at the end
01:33:05 <boily> into the okay? I guess I could go with that.
01:33:20 <oerjan> into would be illative
01:33:54 <boily> all those cases always confuse me. people should stick with verb conjugations; that's much simpler and easier.
01:34:03 <oerjan> mind you i use inessive because it's the one finnish case ending i can easily remember
01:34:47 <fizzie> The Finnish locatives are (I think) generally taught as two groups of three: inessive, elative, illative (the internals) and adessive, ablative, allative (the externals).
01:34:56 <oerjan> norwegian doesn't have much in the way of verb conjugation. certainly even less than english.
01:35:15 <oren> blarh I hated french because they have all these conjugations but never bother to actually SAY them, so why do they still WRITE them!?!?!?
01:35:30 <oerjan> fizzie: hungarian has those + an extra group for surfaces hth
01:35:58 <boily> oren: we do say them hth
01:38:10 <oerjan> that is, in hungarian you have to decide vaguely whether you're dealing with a point, a surface, or a volume before you choose locative cases. iirc.
01:38:36 <oren> je parl tu parl ii parl nu parlaw vu parlay ii parl
01:38:49 <oren> only two are in any way differnet
01:39:03 <oren> the l isn't actually pronounced
01:39:41 <boily> also, your “ii” is suspiciously québécois...
01:39:53 <oren> I'm from canada...
01:39:55 <oerjan> also the -aw should be nasal
01:40:52 <boily> parlons! with a «on» sound! tsé, messemble, c'pas compliqué! quand même, là là...
01:41:34 <oren> In france do they actually say the n?
01:42:07 <oerjan> saying the n isn't the same as using a nasal vowel
01:42:11 <boily> their «on» is actually the same. there are differences with «an», and they have mostly merged «in» and «un» together.
01:42:50 <oren> u~ bo ve~ bla~
01:44:29 <boily> /œ̃bɔ̃vɛ̃blæ̃/ vs. /ɛ̃bɔ̃vɛ̃blɑ̃/.
01:44:49 <fizzie> oerjan: Apparently we have a third group of locatives for "state" (translative, essive and exessive, for entering, residing and exiting a particular state), but the exessive only exists in some dialects, and anyway I don't think our Finnish grammar classes really grouped them.
01:45:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Also I think we have some remnants of the Hungarian stuff, applicable to some particular words. Or something like that.
01:46:30 <oerjan> well i recall reading that the common ancestral language had a lot fewer cases than both hungarian and finnish, so it's not clear what is a "remnant" there...
01:47:15 <oerjan> (something like 6/7, which is about as many as protoindoeuropean i think)
01:47:52 <oerjan> which reminds me that i was going to look up the consensus number of cases in PIE
01:48:20 <oren> We should have a holidy called PIE day for confusion purposes
01:49:24 <oerjan> boily: wait you canadiens say /blæ̃/ ?
01:50:38 <fizzie> Yes, we should have that on the 53rd day of August, because π*e = 8.539734...
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01:51:07 <fizzie> (And the de-facto π day already follows the ridiculous American month/day/year conventions.)
01:51:30 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.pi’, defined at L.hs:161:1
01:51:46 <boily> > exp GHC.Float.pi
01:51:46 <oren> oerjan: my dad does. I learned in school to say blaw but my dad corrected me with bleh
01:51:49 <fizzie> That would be the EPI day, I think.
01:51:55 * boily mapoles lambdabot again
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01:52:14 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Integral b0)
01:52:14 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Real.^’
01:52:14 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Float.Floating a)
01:52:37 <boily> hmm... which was it again, the one that hit about 19.999...
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01:52:48 <Koen_> > exp (exp 1 * (ln pi))
01:52:49 <lambdabot> ‘n’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
01:53:29 <fizzie> boily: I just googled the corresponding xkcd, to be honest.
01:53:56 <fizzie> (Second hit for "xkcd floating point library".)
01:55:57 <oerjan> rand()*(exp pi - pi), aka 80
01:59:41 <oerjan> also as for days, beware the ides of march
02:00:44 <oren> I generally just use a text editor, not an ide, so i'm safe
02:00:51 <AndoDaan> Beware your own desire to become kind, I'd say.
02:02:55 <oren> my mouse has begun malfunctioning, which is annoying when it's my method to see if my display has frozen again
02:03:06 <boily> mechanical keyboards forevaaaaaaaah!!!!!1!!one!!!11!!
02:07:26 <AndoDaan> I bought a new mousepad a couple of days ago. It had "works with optical lasers Mice" on it's packedging, all proud and shit.
02:08:29 <AndoDaan> What are actually the benefits of a mechanical keyboard?
02:09:25 <boily> nice solid keys with a long tracking, a keyboard that feels solid beneath your fingers, and snobby hipsterness :P
02:10:16 <boily> (also, annoying your coworkers with loud clicks and clacks :D)
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02:30:32 <oren> They also can stand up to my rough fingers without breaking
02:31:02 <oren> Usually the keyboard breaks first on my laptops, this is unusual
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03:11:46 <ais523> so this is what I came up with: http://sprunge.us/IebA
03:11:50 <ais523> rather inefficient but it seems to work
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03:54:18 <zzo38> You posted twice as it turns out
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04:02:45 <ais523> zzo38: I wasn't sure if it went through the first time
04:02:59 <ais523> quintopia: communicating binaries through a terminal multiplexer
04:04:48 <ais523> communicating files to non-networked systems
04:05:01 <ais523> when the only connection you have goes through both screen /and/ tmux
04:06:27 <Sgeo> Is tmux good? I love screen but I only use it for its 'don't die if I lose connection' properties
04:07:20 <ais523> Sgeo: it's very similar to screen in most respects
04:07:24 <ais523> probably the interface is a bit nicer
04:07:41 <ais523> however, going through both screen and tmux is by far easier than trying to go through screen or tmux twice
04:08:01 <pikhq> Though it's not a fair comparison (the only time I used it was a pretty old version), tmux's terminal emulation when I used it was craaap.
04:09:53 <ais523> quintopia: yes, but I came across one
04:10:02 <ais523> and asked #esoteric because it was an interesting problem
04:10:14 <ais523> it's possibly an avoidable problem – we could probably change the setup
04:10:31 <ais523> but seeing if it was possible without changing the setup captured my interest
04:11:07 <Sgeo> Why is it going through both screen and tmux?
04:11:41 <ais523> it's using tmux as screen, and screen as a serial connection parser
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04:16:11 <Sgeo> I feel like I understand screen even less than I did before
04:18:04 <oren> I should learn to use screen.
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04:32:24 <zzo38> Why does my speakers sometimes make extra noise that it isn't supposed to (but usually it doesn't)?
04:34:53 <pikhq> Could be one of a few different things.
04:35:23 <pikhq> Are you in the presence of a strong magnetic field?
04:35:41 <zzo38> I don't think so, but I don't know
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04:56:50 <oren> Hmm. I'm not familiar with any other programs which use control A as a command, thats convenient
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04:59:04 * Sgeo is in the presence of a few magnetic fields, h2
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05:07:59 <Sgeo> A bit late to post this, but http://www.cadaeic.net/cadenza.htm
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06:05:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Condit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42127&oldid=23186 * 86.164.23.31 * (-20) /* External resources */ remove "no longer working" since the link is valid
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06:16:34 <g2watson> that's rare, for a link to start working again
06:22:45 <g2watson> normally when a link goes dead either the server is gone or the website has been reorganized
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06:27:35 <zzo38> Well, my link is also broken, but not due to any reorganization or server is gone, but because the DNS is pointing to the wrong address.
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06:33:17 <zzo38> oerjan: What does that mean?
06:33:37 <zzo38> Can you figure out all of my three Magic: the Puzzling so far?
06:34:57 <b_jonas> no, I think I only solved the first one
06:35:26 <b_jonas> the first one is the one with that sea monster, one is the subgame Sharcantspell one
06:35:43 <zzo38> http://24.207.84.223/textfile/miscellaneous/puzzle.1 and puzzle.2 and puzzle.3
06:36:11 <b_jonas> wasn't it at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/
06:36:25 <zzo38> O, yes, that's correct; I gave the wrong address
06:36:50 <zzo38> Although the DNS is broke so type http://24.207.84.223/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 and so on
06:38:20 <zzo38> See if you can figure even a little bit about the second and third one
06:39:06 <b_jonas> I think I figured a little bit, namely that the Wishes are probably used from the subgame.
06:39:42 <zzo38> Yes, but now you have figure it out more
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06:59:41 <Sgeo> Are there any processes on Windows that renames files to m and then a number?
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07:26:45 <zzo38> Someone else did figure out all of my puzzles
07:26:49 <zzo38> But now see if you know too
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08:53:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42128&oldid=40652 * Rdebath * (-3) Sigh
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10:03:16 <fungot> int-e: creates a vector of that length would be kept alive for running the whole scheme image, not when they are
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10:32:24 <boily> @tell oerjan Good moerjaning!
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10:54:55 <elliott__> melliottin sounds like some kind of substance
10:56:08 <int-e> "The word 'mellow' wandered around in his mind in search of something to connect with."
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13:14:01 <b_jonas> Terry Pratchett? but he was so young
13:15:24 <int-e> Surely you must have heard of his Alzheimer's disease.
13:17:13 <b_jonas> he's going straight to my list of Notable deaths of this century, right now, no waiting time needed for me to consider if he's significant enough in this case
13:19:00 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Notable_deaths_of_this_century
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14:38:47 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows. I've read that it was an atypical form of Alzheimer's which affects the back of the brain (and hence, motor skills) first; it's also closer to the pons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pons that regulates breathing...
14:39:41 <b_jonas> meh, I don't do distance medical diagnosis. I'm just sad he's passed.
14:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> well it's significant because he was very vocal about his intention to die on his own terms, before the disease took his mind
14:40:53 <int-e> It's not a diagnosis, it's speculation.
14:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> but according to his publisher it wasn't suicide, assisted or otherwise
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15:36:16 <oren> b_jonas: the list of "redirects from given names" on wikipedia seems to contain a lot of japanese names
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17:07:25 <fizzie> Says something about the cost of public transportation here: my bank's fraud detection systems declined my purchase of an annual ticket due to the "suspiciously high value".
17:16:10 <fizzie> London, UK, to be more precise. I guess there are a lot of Londons in the states? There usually are.
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17:27:17 <oren> London england is better than the one in canada tho
17:27:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hardiholpus * New user account
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17:34:44 <fizzie> quintopia: For zones 1-2, it's 1284 GBP.
17:34:59 <fizzie> (Around $1900 in American terms.)
17:40:18 <quintopia> so anyone have any idea why i can't open a chrome browser window. i can see in the task manager it is running, but there is no visible window. reinstalling doesn't help.
17:43:02 <fizzie> Well, it's worse than in Finland; an annual "local" ticket ("zone 1") is only 546.80 EUR, and even the entire metro area is just 1086.40 EUR. (The London one goes up to 3336 GBP for zones 1-9, but to be fair it's a much bigger system.)
17:43:27 <AndoDaan> Do you have a two/tree screen set up quintopia?
17:43:52 <quintopia> not that i know of, though i'm not sure how to check
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17:44:52 <AndoDaan> Nah, if there's only one screen in front of you then you probably have just the one screen setup then.
17:46:53 <AndoDaan> There pver a thousand people in #Haskell... how is that possible?
17:48:13 <int-e> maybe it's a strange attractor.
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17:48:37 <int-e> it's also a very functional IRC channel
17:50:28 <quintopia> int-e: i don't know if i'd put it in that category
17:51:00 <int-e> Despite the pun, I'm serious. The people there are helpful and overall very resistant to being trolled.
17:54:09 <elliott__> unless it's gotten a lot better recently
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18:00:21 <int-e> obviously this worked better when there were only 300 people
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18:11:26 <J_Arcane> This is the most idiotic piece of sycophancy I have ever read. http://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/03/14/tim-cook-apple-changing-the-world/
18:12:31 <elliott__> thanks for linking it! now we can all feel that way too
18:20:18 <f|`-`|f> isn't the latest line of apple products more overpriced and underperforming than the last line up?
18:20:42 <coppro> elliott__: you pronounced murrica wrong
18:20:53 <elliott__> idk, let me get my objective apple flamebait calculator out
18:20:53 <f|`-`|f> It doesn't take a Jobs to understand the necessity of basic iteration
18:21:11 <elliott__> back. it says if this is a discussion that ends up happening I'll hate everyone
18:21:18 <int-e> . o O ( What does Apple sell? At a fundamental level, Apple sells change. -- Small and smaller change... shiny coins... )
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18:43:26 <oren> blah, they're changing the world, except Japan, where I didn't see a single Apple product the entire time I was there
18:44:30 <pikhq> Japan is a magical land, where features phones still live.
18:45:35 <oren> non-smart phones, with like, buttons
18:48:14 <oren> Essentially japan is supposed to be famouse for their technology, but their use of technology is very... conservative, as it were.
18:49:23 <oren> They use windows XP a LOT, flip phones, fax machines, and CASH!
18:50:12 <oren> I paid for my hotel with a giant wad of Yen, apparently that is the normal way
18:57:04 <int-e> paying for bus tickets was too much for me.
18:57:08 <oren> Also I paid for some other stuff with a wire transfer. A *wire transfer*. The people at my bank were kind of... amused
18:57:46 <int-e> I like cash. But it's all reversed; paying when leaving the bus, taking care of one's own change...
18:58:47 <int-e> Odd devices that eat both tickets and cash.
19:00:08 <int-e> (From what I could see, the coins get sorted, while the tickets are shred to pieces.)
19:00:57 <coppro> this is interesting to me, given I'm visiting Japan in May
19:02:53 <oren> To even take out cash, your cards most likely will only work at 7/11 or at the post office (yuubinkyoku)
19:03:13 <int-e> hmm last time they didn't work anywhere at all
19:04:03 <elliott__> thanks for the translation. that will help me with my upcoming plan (keikaku)
19:04:12 <oren> Also, only Visa really works...
19:05:15 <int-e> " All Maestro-branded EMV cards issued outside of the Asia/Pacific region are able to withdraw currency at Seven Bank and AEON Bank ATMs" -- this seems to be new.
19:05:51 <oren> Oh? Hmm, seems they are improving the system
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19:08:24 <oren> elliott: keikaku doori. muhuhahahaha
19:09:38 <int-e> (I lied. The last time I was there, AEON bank would accept the card, but their ATMs were hard to find and I didn't make use of them.)
19:11:51 <int-e> http://www.mastercard.co.jp/personal/atm-notification.html looks official enough, but is there a date?
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19:29:55 <zzo38> I think also in Japan a lot of compressed archives are .lzh although I can still use them on my computer because 7-Zip can open such file.
19:32:24 <b_jonas> oren, int-e: we here also use cash, and some people like me also use phones with buttons that let me type without having to look at the screen constantly
19:32:52 <b_jonas> and that don't require me to pay attention to software updates and disabling internet use and all kinds of nonsense I don't need to just, you know, phone people
19:33:20 <b_jonas> but yes, getting up the bus on the back and getting off at the front and paying when getting off is crazy
19:33:26 <b_jonas> that would never work here
19:34:08 <zzo38> I also prefer to use cash when paying for stuff, as much as possible; I don't have any credit card
19:34:39 <b_jonas> I mix cash and debit card. But in many places here, you can't pay with a card at all.
19:35:05 <b_jonas> Whereas in Sweden you can pay with a card basically _anywhere_
19:41:02 <fizzie> I've used cash here in London exactly twice now, in the about 2.5 months I've been here.
19:41:59 <fizzie> Once when opening a bank account, to give it a nonzero balance, though I guess there was no particular reason for that; and the other day when I couldn't remember the PIN for the debit card, because of jetlag and not having used it at all during the two weeks in the states.
19:42:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: has there been anything you didn't buy because you didn't have enough cash with you, or that you asked someone else to pay for you with cash?
19:43:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42129&oldid=42128 * Rdebath * (+3663) Some expansion and alternatives.
19:43:41 <b_jonas> I was in Sweden only for a week. I've seen only one place that required cash (as opposed to card), namely some public toilet. My brother is living there and he says that's true in general.
19:44:18 <fizzie> I think vending machines in general in Finland at least used to be cash-only. Though maybe that has changed. And there aren't that many of them.
19:44:39 <fizzie> Last time I was at the Helsinki Airport, I did buy a drink from an airport vending machine with a credit card.
19:44:48 <fizzie> But airports are special.
19:44:53 <int-e> Of course for vending machine operators, cash is a burden.
19:45:13 <fizzie> You can pay with a mobile phone (by sending a SMS) in many things there these days.
19:45:19 <fizzie> But I think that generally costs more than cash.
19:45:32 <int-e> So from what I can see here (Austria), there are more vending machines that accept cards but not cash than vice versa.
19:45:53 <fizzie> If memory serves, the soda vending machines at the university took something like 1.60 EUR in coins, or 1.89 EUR with SMS.
19:46:11 <b_jonas> Most vending machines here are cash only, and more than half are coin only. There are some new ones that also accept card, most importantly the new ones that sell public transport tickets and passes, when they work.
19:46:27 <fizzie> Also I feel strange for not paying anything for food at work.
19:46:58 <int-e> Many places accept both debit cards and cash; credit cards are somewhat less popular. And some places (bars, a few small shops) don't accept debit cards either.
19:47:20 <fizzie> AIUI, in Finland it's not even taxationally possible to offer completely free lunches. Or at least very difficult.
19:47:30 <b_jonas> There used to be a few vending machines that worked with phone cards, as an experiment, but they disappeared as most phones accepting phone cards have disappeared. Strantely, there are and were no public payphones that accept both coins and cards here.
19:48:25 <b_jonas> I think there may be some vending machines that work with SMS, I'm not sure. You can buy parking tickets with SMS though.
19:48:57 <int-e> I've never paid anything by SMS.
19:49:16 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think I have either. I have paid with phone card a few times.
19:50:18 <fizzie> My wife's place had subsidized lunch prices in the company cafeteria, and you could "pay" with the employee badge and it'd auto-deduct from salary, which I think was a reasonably common policy.
19:51:07 <fizzie> And probably almost every workplace cafeteria has a separate (cheaper) employee price. But from what people have told me, the price can't be 0.
19:51:16 <int-e> (-ish because the employer shouldn't really know how much I pay in the cafeteria)
19:52:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: cheaper employee price makes sense
19:52:47 <fizzie> I wonder what Google does in Finland. They've got that data center, and I think a tiny sales office in Helsinki.
19:53:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: could they just ask a very cheap nominal price instead of zero? or is that also banned?
19:53:59 <fizzie> I don't know. All I know about this is hearsay.
19:55:42 <b_jonas> or, say, sell a monthly dinner subscription to employees for chea
19:55:49 <zzo38> I don't know if it can be zero, but probably it shouldn't be zero, although it shouldn't be a problem to just decrease the price for employees.
19:56:35 <int-e> YAFGC ... "whoops" indeed. (Tee hee!)
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20:11:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42130&oldid=42117 * 72.74.32.143 * (+57)
20:14:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42131&oldid=42130 * 72.74.32.143 * (+22)
20:16:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42132&oldid=42131 * 72.74.32.143 * (+1)
20:17:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42133&oldid=42132 * 72.74.32.143 * (+0)
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22:41:49 <zzo38> Is it possible that the clock set incorrectly causes HTTPS to stop working sometimes?
22:44:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, if it is way off you could get certificate validation errors. You would need at least several days off, but it would still be rather unlikely. If it is years off (especially in the future) you will run into issues yes
22:44:50 <Vorpal> If we are talking about seconds or minutes: then no
22:45:01 <Vorpal> not as far as I know at least
22:45:50 <zzo38> I am about ten minutes off
22:46:18 <Vorpal> Well, you should sync your clock still, but even so I don't think that would cause issues with https no
22:46:26 <zzo38> Some wikis force HTTPS even though I don't want it, and this causes some problems
22:46:44 <Vorpal> It would break running irc servers (which need to be synced within seconds)
22:47:19 <zzo38> My IRC server isn't part of a larger IRC network, so isn't as much problem
22:47:37 <Vorpal> Still, why run it 10 minutes off?
22:47:48 <Vorpal> Why not just sync with ntp?
22:48:09 <fizzie> TLS handshake includes timestamps (in seconds) from both ends, but I don't think minutes should really break it.
22:48:23 <fizzie> (Also apparently the TLS 1.3 draft drops those.)
22:48:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it does? To prevent replay attacks?
22:48:51 <zzo38> I will fix the time
22:49:04 <fizzie> Could be. Although I think it has enough nonces in order to not need time.
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22:49:35 <zzo38> But, what is the correct time anyways? What daytime server may I connect to?
22:49:50 <Vorpal> pool.ntp.org is the usual ntp server
22:50:02 <Vorpal> daytime server I don't know what you mean by
22:50:46 <fizzie> Daytime is the thing that runs in port 'daytime'.
22:51:49 <fizzie> Sends out an ASCII date in an abritrary format when connected to.
22:52:18 <fizzie> "There is no specific syntax for the daytime. It is recommended that it be limited to the ASCII printing characters, space, carriage return, and line feed. The daytime should be just one line." (RFC 867)
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22:53:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, That is the most underspecified crap of a non-joke RFC I have seen
22:53:25 <Vorpal> Worse than the IRC RFC
22:53:53 <fizzie> It's kind of meant for humans.
22:54:25 <fizzie> RFC 868 describes the machine-readable counterpart.
22:55:20 <Vorpal> I don't get why zzo38 isn't just using ntp though?
22:55:32 <fizzie> I'm not surprised, really.
22:55:35 <zzo38> There are also other chat protocols tham IRC but I have looked and don't like it much, and I think IRC is more better
22:55:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't have a NTP client, also apparently they require a password?
22:57:08 <Vorpal> Even windows has a built in ntp client I believe in the time and date settings
22:57:26 <zzo38> I just used the TIME command to set the time though
22:57:31 <Vorpal> It doesn't work very well (it syncs quite rarely), but it is still something
22:58:49 <fizzie> Good thing you talked about NTP, though, made me realize I should drop off the former ISP's time server from the list.
22:59:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I used ptp recently, because ntp didn't keep the clocks in sync well enough
23:00:04 <fizzie> The router-modem my current ISP gave me has uk.pool.ntp.org and time.nist.gov configured as time sources by default.
23:00:19 <Vorpal> I just switch to pool.ntp.org normally
23:00:32 <Vorpal> uk.pool.ntp.org should work too
23:00:50 <Vorpal> I believe pool without any country prefix is geodns-ed anyway
23:02:12 <Vorpal> Hm how do I see what kernel module is handling a certain network interface?
23:02:20 <Vorpal> lspci doesn't help, it is not a PCI device
23:02:35 <Vorpal> Nor does lsusb help of course (not an USB device)
23:02:49 <fizzie> Something in /sys/class/net/$interface/ maybe.
23:04:13 <Vorpal> So ethtool probably won't work
23:04:48 <fizzie> Apparently the source of the official UK time (the National Physical Laboratory) runs public NTP servers (ntp[12].npl.co.uk) too.
23:05:12 <Vorpal> Hm my desktop network interface support PTP hardware clock
23:05:22 <Vorpal> Don't have a use for it though
23:06:29 <fizzie> I almost ended up connecting two devices with three parallel Ethernet links the other day, for really stupid reasons.
23:09:34 <int-e> thtahttah tad tod eodseonse'nst'n t's tos uosnuodnu dnt dot oot oob oab dabdad
23:10:14 <Koen_> it looks like we're breaking up I can hardly make out what you say
23:10:25 <fizzie> It wouldn't have been for anything smart like load-balancing/bundling.
23:10:32 <int-e> > let s = "that doesn't sound too bad" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,' ':' ':s] -- I didn't actually type that.
23:10:33 <lambdabot> "t ht ahttah tad tod eodseonse'nst'n t's tos uosnuodnu dnt dot oot oob oab ...
23:10:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was it for then?
23:11:42 <int-e> or perhaps I should write it as concat . transpose . take 3 . iterate (' ':) $ s.
23:12:20 <Koen_> int-e: kinda reminds me of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Glypho
23:12:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'll try to make a long story short. My new ISP gave me a /29 IPv4 subnet, and a router with an integrated modem; they talk PPPoE over PTM-mode VDSL2. The "standard" configuration of having their router-modem terminate the PPPoE works, but they use some proxyarp stuff (because the PPP link negotiates a public IP inside the /29, and the router has to forward stuff to the rest of the ...
23:12:44 <fizzie> ... hosts), and initially it seemed like it'd require distinct MAC addresses for any distinct IP's. Since my own Linux router-box had four Ethernet interfaces, plugging three of them into the router-modem was one of the workarounds I was considering.
23:13:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Later it turned out that it doesn't require distinct MACs, and I was probably just messing something else up.
23:13:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could also solve that using some bridges and promisc mode perhaps?
23:14:22 <Vorpal> I'm not familiar with those, but sounds reasonable based on the name
23:14:31 <int-e> thtahta td odeosens'nt' ts osuonudn dt otoo ob abdad -- I guess the two list version is already bad enough.
23:14:37 <fizzie> The setup I *wanted* to make was to have the router-modem in pure "bridged" mode, and have the Linux box terminate the PPPoE connection, but for some reason I've just been unable to make that work.
23:15:18 <fizzie> It's one of these "real Busybox shell is too dangerous so we'll just provide a custom CLI" devices, so I can't peek into how they've configured PPPoE.
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23:15:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm with macwlan doesn't the interface still need to run in promisc mode?
23:16:10 <Vorpal> To not filter the mac addresses at hardware levek
23:16:15 <fizzie> I guess, but I think that happens automatically.
23:16:59 <fizzie> Back in Finland I kinda-sorta used the "some bridges" mode to solve a different but analogous problem.
23:17:28 <fizzie> (The ISP there allocated all addresses strictly over DHCP, and you need distinct MACs to get multiple IPs requested out of a DHCP server.)
23:21:09 <fizzie> Now I'm not sure whether I should debug the "Linux server as PPPoE endpoint" issue more, since what I have now mostly works, and the only drawbacks seem to be slight feeling of inelegance, and the fact that one public IP is "wasted" on the router-modem. (But I don't need that many anyway.)
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23:28:35 <tswett> I 'I m'I m'g mog iogniogni gnt got ott oat latkla kll kil kileki ekt eht ihtsih sie sxe cxelcxulcsulisuvisevilevyle ylf yrf orfmor mon mon won woo wno .no.n.
23:29:44 <tswett> I I'I'm'm m g gogoioiningng g t toto o t tatalalklk k l lilikikeke e t ththihisis s e exexcxclclulususisivivevelelyly y f frfroromom m n nonowow w o onon.n..
23:31:42 <fizzie> Annoying thing: "adb shell ls ..." for some reason uses "\r\n" as the newline.
23:32:48 <oerjan> @tell boily And a good boiling to you
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23:34:21 * boily mapoles tswett back into a coherent reality
23:34:24 <oerjan> k/ /ki ikc bananananasty ststswewettttt
23:35:44 <int-e> ITYM / /k/kikicickckbkbabanan n n nanasaststyty y t tstswswewetettttt HTH
23:36:05 <oerjan> int-e: i dunno, no one told me the rules
23:36:21 <int-e> > let s = "some rules" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:37:34 <tswett> > let s = "nonmonogamous" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:37:36 <lambdabot> "n nonononmnmomonononogogagamamomouoususs"
23:37:48 <tswett> > let s = "onomatopoeia" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:37:49 <lambdabot> "o onononomomamatatotopopopoeoeieiaiaa"
23:38:33 <tswett> O ononono momamata totopopopo eoeiei aiaa.
23:39:09 <int-e> I I I r reregegrgreretet t n nonotoththihiningng.g..
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23:50:44 <boily> Old McDonal had a farm, O ononono momamata totopopopo eoeiei aiaa ♪
23:53:10 <boily> > let s = "O ononono momamata totopopopo eoeiei aiaa." in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:53:11 <lambdabot> "O O O o ononononononononono o m momomomamamamamatatata a t tototototopopopo...
23:53:29 <oerjan> Was there, perchance, on this farm, a c cocowoww ?
23:54:52 <boily> probably a c chchickicknenn?
23:57:50 <fizzie> Oh, right, this is even channel-relevant.
23:57:51 <fizzie> As seen in the Computer History Museum, their big programming language timeline poster: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150315-intercal.jpg
23:59:27 <oerjan> clearly that is missing Feather
23:59:31 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150315-intercal_full.jpg is the whole thing.
23:59:41 <fizzie> It's missing many things. I think INTERCAL was the only esolang that made the cut.
00:00:13 <int-e> I wonder what that looping edge is supposed to indicate
00:00:29 <fizzie> I think it's a vague "come from" joke.
00:00:57 <int-e> thanks, it's a possibility
00:01:15 <oerjan> haskell seems stuck in 1990
00:01:57 <fizzie> Yes, it didn't even have an arrow going off the right edge, like other "live" languages.
00:02:25 <oerjan> i was wondering about that.
00:02:54 <oerjan> otoh that chart doesn't really go up to the haskell renessance
00:04:17 <fizzie> And the same with SQL, which certainly is still in use.
00:04:18 <int-e> ocaml also stops abruptly. Lua, too. Dead ends like D carry on ... weird.
00:04:34 <zzo38> Yes I still use SQL too
00:04:51 <fizzie> MATLAB also exists as an individual node in there. So maybe it's not a very consistent chart.
00:05:00 <oerjan> int-e: it's a zeerust diagram
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00:05:46 <int-e> @google "zeerust diagram"
00:05:48 <lambdabot> http://www.abccrusher.com/articles/pemasok-pasir-dalam-nairobi.html
00:05:48 <lambdabot> Title: pemasok pasir dalam nairobi - pemasok penghancur batu
00:06:19 <boily> > let s = "pemasok pasir dalam nairobi" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
00:06:20 <lambdabot> "p pepememamasasosokok k p papasasisirir r d dadalalalamam m n nanaiairiroro...
00:06:40 <fizzie> The official semantics of the arrows is "head was influenced by tail", so possibly the "live" ones are those which the chartmaker thinks will still influence other languages in the future.
00:08:06 <oerjan> a dark future, obviously </php joke>
00:10:08 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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00:11:11 <int-e> ^def rreree bf ,.[.>,.<.>].
00:11:49 <int-e> ^rreree to be or not to be
00:11:49 <fungot> ttoto o b bebe e o oror r n nonotot t t toto o b bebe
00:13:13 <int-e> ^def rreree bf ,.[.>,.<.>]
00:15:18 <boily> ^rreree My hovercraft is full of eels?
00:15:18 <fungot> MMyMy y h hohovoveverercrcrcrarafaftft t i isis s f fufulullll l o ofof f e eeeelelsls?s?
00:15:34 <boily> wait. wait wait wait wait wait.
00:16:19 <fungot> ææĦđđÑææeee¶¶→ĒđđÑæææßߢ¢“♥
00:16:37 <boily> FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! >_<
00:16:44 <boily> fungot: welcome back!
00:16:44 <fungot> boily: when i go home, there'll be hardly any more effort spent on the fnord
00:16:51 <int-e> ^def rreree bf ,.[.>>,[.<<.>>>]<]<.
00:17:01 <oerjan> boily is out of the loop
00:17:05 <fungot> mmemeoeowow w H HeHelellllolo!o!!
00:17:18 <int-e> there, now it repeats the last letter three times, too, just as it should
00:18:01 <fungot> lloloooopopypylyloloooopopp
00:18:57 <FreeFull> We can see what sort of new unicode characters it can synthesise
00:19:43 <int-e> FreeFull: you do know that fungot answer private messages, don't you?
00:19:43 <fungot> int-e: i'ts not xs fault that x is getting modified in place. i'm sure in the end
00:20:14 <fungot> FreeFull: or he could call a halting program an optimisation of the above :) could you write an interpreter and i need to
00:21:22 <oerjan> boily: you've apparently just noticed fungot's return hth
00:21:22 <fungot> oerjan: everyone does webprogramming in scheme then. as you might notice that i now have fnord/ views/ etc data structures
00:21:51 <boily> oerjan: yes. I kind of seriously brainlagged there.
00:21:58 <boily> fungot: don't worry, I still love you.
00:21:59 <fungot> boily: you pass the cdr to the needed place, they're capable of? i bet i could implement a posn with a list...
00:22:33 <int-e> ^def rreree bf ,..>,[.<.>.>,]<.
00:23:09 <oerjan> int-e: that's still not the original rule you gave
00:23:48 <int-e> oerjan: the original rule was flawed; the extra ' ' was a wart to make transpose work without too many hassles.
00:24:55 <oerjan> int-e: but your new rule reverses the role of the previous and next character
00:25:27 <int-e> > let s = "abcd" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
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00:25:48 <int-e> no? if you drop the space, that's what you get.
00:26:56 <oerjan> oh i see, it's actually _ambiguous_ how to split it up
00:27:06 <oerjan> you have bcbc in there
00:27:39 <oerjan> and it's not given whether the first or the last letter should be left out
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00:28:53 <oerjan> you can analyze it either as a,bab,cbc,dcd,d or as aba,bcb,cdc,dd
00:29:01 <int-e> In my mind it's "links" shaped like a a a or b b b that are hooked together: a abab b etc.
00:30:46 <int-e> in any case I like that brainfuck code, it's surprisingly short :)
00:30:51 <oerjan> and when you removed the "a ", it looked to me like you had changed from the former to the latter
00:31:07 <int-e> but I didn't, I only removed the space.
00:31:32 <int-e> ^rreree some regrets
00:31:32 <fungot> ssosomomeme e r reregegrgreretetstss
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00:43:22 <int-e> ^def rerere bf ,.>,.<.>>,[.<.<.>>>,]<.<.>.
00:43:36 <int-e> ^rerere back to the roots
00:43:36 <fungot> babcabkca kct kot ott oht eht ehr eor oortoostosts
00:45:10 <int-e> (that's more or less the version before tswett's improvement)
00:51:22 <oerjan> int-e: i wonder if whoever asked the adventurers to get the hand of aliam did so to indirectly free ranna.
00:52:27 <oerjan> i do suspect the succubi might want that, too
00:53:05 <oerjan> also, i wonder if i've seen any drow missing a hand around...
00:54:22 <oerjan> well, excluding wolf, who may have lost one temporarily, or was that only glon...
00:55:45 <int-e> oerjan: Looking for an absurd outcome, I'm hoping that the hand ends up with Captain Fang.
00:56:27 <oerjan> he and dewcup should meet up some time
00:58:39 <oerjan> unless the concentration of chaos would destroy the universe.
01:03:07 <oerjan> http://yafgc.net/comic/0463-drow-ire/ both wolf and glon
01:05:16 <boily> destroying the Universe sounds fun.
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01:06:00 <oerjan> boily escaped just as i was about to test whether he's a succubus.
01:06:31 <int-e> ^rreree a succubus
01:06:31 <fungot> aa a s susucuccccucubububusus s
01:07:23 <oerjan> oh i'm thinking of incubus
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01:53:26 <lifthrasiir> it seems that CODEGATE 2015 had a problem ("oemu") that the breakthrough requires writing a shell code in subleq
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02:12:33 <quintopia> huh somehow rebooting made chrome work again. okay!
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02:57:17 <oren> When will they make an inkjet printer that doesn't need its ink shaken
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03:06:56 <quintopia> why is that a problem anyway? most printers are fully capable of shaking their own ink
03:07:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42134&oldid=42091 * SuperJedi224 * (+20)
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04:11:28 <oren> quintopia: well, the printer in question was printing entirely blank sheets, until I took out the ink, shook it, and put it back in
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07:33:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42135&oldid=41986 * 80.53.184.190 * (+32) !* --
07:35:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42136&oldid=42135 * 80.53.184.190 * (-1) /* Syntax */
07:42:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42137&oldid=42136 * 80.53.184.190 * (+18) /* Examples */
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09:08:09 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/ESOSC/blob/master/ESOSC-2014-D6.TXT fwiw
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09:22:40 <mroman> uw. that should be https://github.com/FMNSSun/ESOSC/blob/master/ESOSC-2015-D6.TXT
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12:17:29 <mroman> >> viewQueue1 _ = error "Taneb's done something idiotic!"
12:17:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42138&oldid=41980 * 93.157.13.3 * (+13)
12:17:47 <mroman> Would somebody please ban crisus.
12:17:59 <mroman> He's spamming my query everytime I write something.
12:18:19 <mroman> In spanish though. So I don't understand everything.
12:18:25 <Taneb> mroman, those are impossible to reach error conditions
12:18:33 <mroman> But I assume "solo hooy" means "only today"
12:18:35 <Taneb> There is (or was? I may have removed one) three of them
12:18:55 <mroman> There's three of them.
12:20:21 <elliott__> 12:22:36 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You are not authorized to (de)op elliott__ on #esoteric.
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12:45:08 <int-e> elliott__: Nickserv doesn't know you...
12:47:13 <int-e> . o O ( So why do I now think that "size matters"? )
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21:28:16 <iamevn> I've been working on a simple language for the last couple days, mainly because I've never tried to write an interpreter before and I thought it'd be fun to dive in and see what works and what doesn't. https://github.com/iamevn/wordy
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21:29:17 <iamevn> The basic idea is that any collection of sentences is valid source code and is guaranteed to do /something/ without crashing. Also computed GOTOs are fun
21:30:53 <iamevn> any suggestions for things I can do to make the description and spec better/more clear?
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21:52:56 <AndoDaan> It would be great if your language description would output "Hello, World!" when interpreted by Word. iamevn.
21:57:14 <iamevn> It'd be a pain to set that up for output that long. My current "Hello, world!" program consists of 168 sentences but I could possibly get it down to around 40 with some really long sentences to define constants to print.
21:58:17 <iamevn> Currently building a database of sentences from various books and I'm planning on adjusting the instruction mapping after analyzing that
22:02:58 <iamevn> The spec currently just loops for a bit and is only 56 commands long.
22:08:43 <AndoDaan> Heh. Maybe an idea would be to use other punctuation marks as a subset of instruction. I mean, Christopher, Walken, saying something, should, be... different than, anybody, else SAYING: "I mean, Christopher Walken saying something should be... different than anybody else saying:"
22:10:01 <AndoDaan> But I like the premis as is, though.
22:11:18 <iamevn> thanks, I briefly played with the idea of adding an instruction to make the motherboard beep but soon after reenabling the pcspkr kernel module I remembered why I disabled it in the first place.
22:14:07 <AndoDaan> Wait, motherboards can still do that beep sound?
22:15:48 <pikhq> Yeah, though many systems don't have a speaker wired up for it.
22:16:19 <iamevn> I think windows and osx also don't allow you to anymore either.
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22:28:30 <zzo38> O, glogbot is fixed now, it look like
22:31:57 <boily> elliott__: please kickban cuquitu. it's a spambot.
22:31:58 <AndoDaan> Put an adjective behind it. In all caps.
22:32:11 <boily> !chicken ADMONISHED
22:32:48 <AndoDaan> Got the sme message from him as I did cuquitu.
22:36:50 <AndoDaan> We're all spambots though. I mean, I don't get a minutes rest from all the shit my brain is trying to sell me.
22:37:19 <int-e> we're not privately messaging all people who say something on the channel
22:37:41 <int-e> AndoDaan: oh... deep.
22:37:42 <AndoDaan> Who's to say that little voice inside your head is yours?
22:38:02 <int-e> It's mine. I've grown used to it and adopted it.
22:38:08 <AndoDaan> Telepathic spamming has tricked us into thinking we're conscious.
22:38:39 <zzo38> You can set yourself +g and +D if you do not want to receive any messages on IRC, although that doesn't seem very useful; usually when you send a message you would want to get a reply.
22:39:02 <int-e> As long as it isn't any .. what'stherename ... Thetans... it's fine.
22:39:49 <int-e> +D yeah. "This prevents you from receiving channel messages. You will probably not want to set this in most cases. (It is used by services.)"
22:40:58 <int-e> But is there a user mode such that when receiving a message, the sender's hostmask indicates whether they're identified to Nickserv or not?
22:41:18 <zzo38> int-e: I don't know if +R does it?
22:41:43 <int-e> +R filters out the messages from unidentified users; I don't really want that.
22:41:47 <zzo38> +D might possibly be useful for bots that only announce, in order to reduce how much data is needed
22:41:58 <zzo38> int-e: Then probably there isn't one
22:42:10 <zzo38> Although you can check if they are cloaked from the hostname at least
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22:42:24 <zzo38> But not all identified clients are cloaked, such as, I am not
22:43:41 <b_jonas> int-e: there is a way to know that, but it's too long to fit on this margin
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22:43:45 <g2watson> I don't know what cloaked means
22:43:47 <b_jonas> int-e: ask me again tomorrow
22:44:15 <int-e> b_jonas: Note timestamp: 23:46:12 <b_jonas> int-e: ask me again tomorrow
22:44:21 <AndoDaan> Took him hella long to reincarnate as Andrew Wile.
22:44:45 <oerjan> Gregor: glogbot needs a clock adjustment hth
22:45:06 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, but it won't help if you ask while I'm asleep
22:45:33 <int-e> AndoDaan: it's Wiles. (Oh he's been knighted?)
22:46:02 <int-e> b_jonas: Who knows what feats your unconscious is capable of...
22:46:35 <AndoDaan> Looks like. Good for him, and Maths.
22:47:07 <oerjan> int-e: the problem isn't his unconscious hearing it, the problem is him remembering it after he wakes up hth
22:47:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:47:21 <AndoDaan> Though, Rolf Harrison was knighted.
22:47:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*cleres@213.143.60.*.
22:47:27 -!- oerjan has kicked cleres Spamming.
22:47:35 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*cuquitu@213.143.61.*.
22:47:35 -!- oerjan has kicked cuquitu Spamming.
22:47:47 <int-e> AndoDaan: That happened in 2000, but I don't recall reading about it anywhere.
22:47:53 <g2watson> hearing it? does he have an irc-to-voice bridge?
22:48:15 <boily> we definitely have a bot problem in this chännel...
22:48:26 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@213.143.*.
22:48:44 <int-e> g2watson: you know that processors have all those funny emissions, some of them are audible.
22:48:58 <oerjan> @tell Gregor HackEgo is missing and glogbot needs a time adjustment hth
22:49:13 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*cleres@213.143.60.*.
22:49:14 <int-e> g2watson: see http://www.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ for example
22:49:21 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*cuquitu@213.143.61.*.
22:50:23 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:50:31 <AndoDaan> That link... Human ingenuity never ceases to amaze me.
22:51:29 <g2watson> Hmm... Seems like you could just play music while en/decrypting to fix that
22:52:18 <AndoDaan> Subtract the music with MUSAKHACKS.exe -subtrack
22:52:24 <zzo38> Would playing music actually work though? Music doesn't suppress other noise too isn't it?
22:52:56 <oerjan> <g2watson> hearing it? does he have an irc-to-voice bridge? <-- the unconscious is not limited by such considerations AUM hth
22:53:05 <AndoDaan> Only if it would go beyond the threshold of what's recording.
22:53:53 <int-e> g2watson: Doubtful. Besides filtering techniques, there's the possibility to filter audio by source location given several microphones spaced somewhat apart (all 8 corners of a server, perhaps?)
22:54:28 <zzo38> Make a computer that shields the noise from the inside and has a built-in power regulator so that power analysis cannot be used either.
22:54:58 <g2watson> Or a computer that contains a wide-band random noise generator
22:55:04 <int-e> g2watson: http://www.wired.com/2010/10/super-microphone-picks-out-single-voice-in-a-crowded-stadium/
22:56:30 <oerjan> @tell Gregor actually it is there just failing to join the channel for some reason. again.
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22:57:23 <oerjan> fizzie: often-more-responsive-than-Gregor-ping
22:58:07 <oerjan> @pinky Another day. What shall we use it for?
22:58:07 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, Brain, but it's a miracle that this one grew back.
22:58:20 <oerjan> @brain Another day. What shall we use it for?
22:58:20 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
22:58:30 <oerjan> ok not for breeding, check
23:00:42 <oerjan> int-e: elliott hates penguins hth
23:01:28 <int-e> anyway I see nothing that looks like it would include glogbot.
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23:03:22 <oerjan> int-e: this is not new, it just seems to happen frequently on pingouts/server crashes/whatever
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23:04:39 <fizzie> You're in luck, I just got home.
23:04:41 <oerjan> i assume you've got your internet working enough you don't have to do that tethering-avoiding cell-phone dance any more
23:04:57 <fizzie> I mean, we wouldn't have had fungot without that.
23:04:58 <fungot> fizzie: later tell forcer there's a new revision eons ago but it seems that it's injected loads of users though?
23:05:14 -!- g2watson has changed nick to oren.
23:05:17 <fizzie> fungot: You seem to have me confused with a bot.
23:05:17 <fungot> fizzie: depends on how the program changes it. it prints ( list 1 2) ( scheme-report-environment 5))
23:05:21 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't expect to find anything, just thought it would be worth checking anyway.
23:05:45 <oerjan> oren: fizzie recently moved to london, and didn't have proper internet for a while, only cell phone
23:06:49 <int-e> Hey, fungot is our voice of reason. Sometimes it's even coherent!
23:06:49 <fungot> int-e: you will see something else is too small
23:06:50 <oren> so was he doing that thing where a cell phone acts as a router?
23:07:14 <fizzie> I was not doing that, because it's forbidden by my phone contract.
23:07:20 <fizzie> Hence I had to do circuitous things.
23:07:41 <fizzie> Like move files from a computer into the phone in order to put them online, and so on.
23:07:58 <Koen__> <fungot> int-e: you will see something else is too small << i don't think we should teach bots that kind of jokes. otherwise they might pass turing's test
23:07:58 <fungot> Koen__: what does that want to be misinterpreted by later generations... ahem... machine-readable format the other day."
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23:09:30 <AndoDaan> Turing test is bunk. I mean, if a 13yo Ukranian computer can pass it... Then we need another test.
23:11:13 <int-e> Every time an AI problem is solved, people find that the rules were flawed. :P
23:11:18 <oerjan> `learn fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
23:11:18 <fungot> oerjan: i didn't see it, you can't get an apartment, so it doesn't allow general recursion.
23:11:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'fungot': fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
23:11:37 <int-e> (I'm no exception to that. But I find it amusing nonetheless.)
23:11:56 <AndoDaan> But this goalpost is very important, int-e. We need to get it right.
23:11:59 <fungot> boily: and that would cause infinite loops on my vm/ compiler just shows me how much i dislike the concept of the system
23:12:08 <oerjan> i've been planning to add a fungot wisdom for a week but i couldn't think of what to put in the second part
23:12:08 <fungot> oerjan: please dont read that wrong anyway.) in this portable scheme library? :) ( i'm sure i'll have some holidays within the next ten years" would be
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23:12:28 <AndoDaan> Otherwise we might not feel good about the AI slaves we'll be having.
23:12:30 <Koen__> int-e: chess are flawed. period.
23:12:31 <boily> oerjan: I need to get back on track. I've been neglecting my duties.
23:12:32 <oren> bah, human like AI isn't even that useful
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23:12:51 <oren> because humans are cheap
23:12:59 <Koen__> I'm currently reading A fire into the deep by Vernor Vinge
23:14:26 <oerjan> <AndoDaan> Turing test is bunk. I mean, if a 13yo Ukranian computer can pass it... Then we need another test. <-- well _that_ test was bunk, it was artificially limited what the interrogators could ask.
23:14:41 <oren> A fire upon the deep?
23:15:29 <AndoDaan> Yeah, I should have qualified that. But I still think some unlike Turing things will have to be added to make it more useful.
23:15:47 <oerjan> <fungot> oerjan: i didn't see it, you can't get an apartment, so it doesn't allow general recursion. <-- yeah you're pretty much right about that.
23:15:47 <fungot> oerjan: it was a mutated ecoli, i just meant that i have absolutely no interest in doing so
23:16:40 <oerjan> <AndoDaan> But this goalpost is very important, int-e. We need to get it right. <-- the AI problem will have been solved when humans are no longer the ones with the power to set the goalposts hth
23:17:47 <AndoDaan> I'm for it. As long as they aren't I Have No Mouth twisted, then it can only beneficent mankind.
23:17:48 <oren> Bah! the actual "AI problem" is to make it both practical and cheaper to use AI's for a given purpose than humans.
23:17:49 <int-e> AndoDaan: It's certain that Turing didn't have teenagers with a language barrier in mind when he designed his test(s). (Now I wonder whether any of the Judges could read and write Ukrainian...)
23:19:19 <oren> In particular humans are easier to debug than AI's.
23:20:20 <AndoDaan> Hmm. What kind of drugs will an AI take?
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23:21:38 <AndoDaan> I guess maybe they'll have the skills to modify their own stake.
23:23:34 <int-e> Maybe there will be some special repetetive (or not) bitstreams that overexcite receptors connected to pleasure centers.
23:24:21 <AndoDaan> Hmm, but they might want to be able to nuance what their pleasure is.
23:24:22 <int-e> . o O ( "My AI is addicted to music by Bach." )
23:24:44 <oren> would it be profitable to use such AI?
23:25:05 <AndoDaan> We're lucky, we have All kinds of evolutionary buttons to push, AI's will be more focused at first.
23:26:25 <int-e> oren: "use"? It would be thrilling to exchange ideas with it, and enjoy the short period before AIs surpass us and are no longer interested in talking to us :P
23:26:59 <int-e> oren: More seriously, not all human endeavours are motivated by the prospect of profit.
23:27:41 <oren> True, but an AI-dev team needs to get funding from somewhere?
23:27:58 <zzo38> How commoly is setjmp used as a loop condition in a C code?
23:28:15 <zzo38> And how often as a loop condition when the loop body is empty?
23:28:29 <int-e> There's academia, and there are hobbyists. And there are always people founding research in the hope of applying the resulting ideas elsewhere.
23:28:40 <int-e> s/founding/funding/
23:28:52 <oren> zzo38: Um, I have never used it that way
23:29:24 <oren> I have only used it as the C version of "try"
23:29:59 <zzo38> Actually using it as a loop condition with an empty loop body is the only way I have ever used it, and only in one program
23:31:05 <oren> Hmm... on first return it exits right away
23:31:28 <oren> On second return it loops once then sets the jump again and exits
23:32:33 <oren> So it allows you to go back to that place an unlimited number of times
23:34:50 <zzo38> The program is a Z-machine debugger.
23:35:55 <int-e> zzo38: Why would you do that? if (setjmp(...)) { } and while (setjmp(...)) { } seem equivalent to me, since it's okay to use the same jmp_buf data several times...
23:36:06 <zzo38> int-e: I have been told that it isn't OK
23:36:26 <zzo38> Which is why I even used a while loop rather than just putting setjmp as a statement by itself.
23:36:45 <zzo38> Since I don't otherwise care about the return value.
23:37:55 <zzo38> Errors and breakpoints can occur even in the middle of an instruction's execution, so the debugger checks if the program counter has changed, if it hasn't then it just returns to the program otherwise it longjmp before continuing execution.
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23:42:32 <int-e> zzo38: So reading the C11 and C99 drafts I see no indication that this is problematic. The case is not explicitly mentioned. POSIX defers to the C standard...
23:43:54 <zzo38> int-e: Well, maybe, but someone else told me that it isn't allowed to reuse the same jump buffer, so I did this just to be safe anyways
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23:47:04 <zzo38> O, now I made up a new keyword of Magic: the Gathering called "spellmorph"; it can be faced up for its spellmorph cost while on the stack or in play, but if faced up while in play in this way, it is moved onto the top of the stack. Either way, targets and modes are now selected at this time.
23:47:51 <zzo38> (If it is faced up while already on the stack, it remains in its current position instead of being placed on top. However, if it also has float, you can then move it to the top.)
23:48:46 <int-e> Of course there's always the question of what compilers do in practice, which may be more important than what the standard says. But I'd still like to have a better source than "somebody on the internet told me that somebody told him that this is bad".
23:49:21 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, that would help to know, although whether it is OK or not, what I did is safe.
23:49:50 <zzo38> (Possibly it is OK on some computers and not on others.)
23:52:02 <oren> zzo38: but some fascists will use the fact it isn't ok to make the whole program return immediately
23:52:36 <oren> So if it works i'm guessing it's ok
23:54:32 <zzo38> I expect it probably is OK in most cases (although possibly messes with some optimizations?), but am not sure, and possibly it might not work if compiling C->Java or whatever
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00:00:13 <oerjan> <AndoDaan> Hmm. What kind of drugs will an AI take? <-- i think they'd be on the wire </niven>
00:01:04 <AndoDaan> Can't wait for that one. Poor Kzinthi, though.know I misspelled that.
00:01:29 <int-e> I googled some more; I still think it's okay per the standard (and I've seen several people come to the same conclusion), but as said earlier, it's possible that some implementations get this wrong. I also found https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/c/MSC22-C.+Use+the+setjmp%28%29,+longjmp%28%29+facility+securely which has some nice examples (but doesn't mention double use of...
00:01:35 <int-e> ...set_jmp buffers either, except in a comment)
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00:07:37 <zzo38> Well, in case some implementations don't allow reusing the same buffer, that's why I did the way I did it! Otherwise I don't need a loop and can just use setjmp as a statement by itself. I don't know much about some VM such as Java VM to know whether or not such a thing requires it when compiling C->JVM or C->Dalvik or whatever.
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01:08:44 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott__> I have too many __s <-- more like you're not logged in to your account; technically you can be even if you're not currently using a nick registered to it
01:09:20 * oerjan briefly wonders if elliott__ will never see that message because he'll never lose the _s
01:11:25 <oerjan> @tell elliott iirc there's a syntax for including the account name in the server password for this
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02:26:46 <oerjan> <int-e> As long as it isn't any .. what'stherename ... Thetans... it's fine. <-- this is #esoteric. we have Multiocularoans.
02:27:07 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> As long as it isn't any .. what'stherename ... Thetans... it's fine. <-- this is #esoteric. we have Multiocularoans.
02:29:56 <quintopia> oerjan: do they live in a matrix of solidity?
02:31:39 <oerjan> i thought that was well established.
02:32:06 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\STX'
02:32:24 <HackEgo> [U+0027 APOSTROPHE] [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+0027 APOSTROPHE]
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02:33:05 <oerjan> oh you still had some bolding
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02:33:37 <oerjan> quintopia: we may never know.
02:36:19 <oerjan> i assume you copied and pasted that from somewhere...
02:41:39 <oerjan> > replicate 10 '\42606'
02:41:40 <lambdabot> "\42606\42606\42606\42606\42606\42606\42606\42606\42606\42606"
02:42:13 <lambdabot> Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ cat :: [Doc] -> Doc
02:42:13 <lambdabot> Text.PrettyPrint cat :: [Doc] -> Doc
02:42:13 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.PprLib cat :: [Doc] -> Doc
02:42:26 <oerjan> > text $ replicate 10 '\42606'
02:43:13 <ProofTechnique> I was still thinking about this discussion in #haskell that required all that extra work :D
02:46:39 <ProofTechnique> Neat. I'm going to have to use this library more often.
02:47:39 <oerjan> last i checked it didn't support table grids, though.
02:48:18 <oerjan> as in, you can combine either horizontal or vertical, but not both simultaneously
02:48:32 <oerjan> in a way that combines widths
02:49:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘GHC.Types.Char’ with ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
02:49:46 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Types.CharCouldn't match type ‘GHC.Types.Char’ with ‘[GHC...
02:50:10 <oerjan> hm does lambdabot have OverloadedString
02:50:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Text’
02:50:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.Doc’
02:50:27 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’Couldn't match expected type ...
02:50:27 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
02:50:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.Doc’
02:50:33 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
02:51:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.Doc’
02:51:01 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’Couldn't match expected type ...
02:51:01 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
02:52:45 <oerjan> it's too short to wrap?
02:53:41 <oerjan> iirc there's some config to change the max width
02:56:03 <ProofTechnique> > text "for" <> space <> lparen <> semi <> semi <> rparen <> space <> lbrace <> rbrace
02:56:19 <Sgeo> http://twinbeard.com/kickstarter-simulator-2015
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03:54:50 <oerjan> @tell fizzie no wiki bridge hth
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06:16:49 <Lymia> > text "for" <> space <> lparen <> semi <> semi <> rparen <> space <> lbrace <> text "puts" <> lparen <> quote <> text "Hello, world!" <> quote <> rparen <> rbrace
06:17:07 <Lymia> > text "for" <> space <> lparen <> semi <> semi <> rparen <> space <> lbrace <> text "puts" <> lparen <> text "\"Hello, world!\"" <> rparen <> semi <> rbrace
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07:48:00 <mroman> Good, crisus isn't here anymore
07:48:36 <mroman> A spam bot on this channel.
07:49:47 <oerjan> i banned a couple and their ip
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09:09:18 <oren> happy st patricks day
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09:44:07 <oren> https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8461586176/h50B14538/
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10:32:24 <Taneb> fungot, what should I have for breakfast?
10:32:24 <fungot> Taneb: ( line 1, column 4): ( cerr nl)) is a term
10:32:47 <Taneb> fungot, cereal, you say?
10:32:56 <Taneb> fizzie, I think fungot needs cereal
10:32:56 <fungot> Taneb: ct is a fun scheme implementation for php...)
10:42:03 <boily> Tanelle. feeding botsnacks to the fungot?
10:42:03 <fungot> boily: will it be as disgusting as it sounds, if that something else, ideally something else concrete or specific? :) i've played with meroon a bit.
10:42:25 <boily> fungot: hey, don't diss the Tanebcereals!
10:42:25 <fungot> boily: ok then stop whining about it missing things like http://foo/ bar-baz' fnord. apparently he uses to stress-test syntax-rules implementations. it's been shown to be useful
10:42:39 <fungot> boily: the proc is invoked. before or after the evaluator transfers control to a certain class of anime characters with long hair and loud music
10:45:32 <fungot> AndoDaan: i wonder how long it took psyntax to load it.) here's a program i have in the in-memory cache at one time
10:46:08 <AndoDaan> I DON'T NEED THE SOFTWARE. i NEED THE HARDWARE.
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10:52:27 <fungot> b_jonas: no one develops or really even uses the client anymore... all i wanted to link it and solaris's linker rejects a.out.
10:52:29 <b_jonas> I haven't seen you in a while
10:52:44 <b_jonas> I'm glad you found your way back safe, fungot
10:52:45 <fungot> b_jonas: that's great. maybe it needs some more comments, but the
10:52:57 <b_jonas> fungot: I hope you enjoyed your vacation as much as I have
10:52:57 <fungot> b_jonas: with improvements. just be uniform about it. what's it like?
10:53:15 <b_jonas> fungot: a week long, no new snow but enough remaining on the pistes
10:53:16 <fungot> b_jonas: no, but i don't want such a target for codegen. i've done enough of this bickering. en guard, neil!
10:54:03 <AndoDaan> fungot and b_jonas sitting in a tree, kay eye es es eye en gee...
10:54:03 <fungot> AndoDaan: and when you do ( nth-value 1 ( function)). the primitive operations of a turing machine was an ad-hoc, fnord bug-ridden slow implementation of half of common lisp.
10:54:04 <fungot> ais523: i think you have to follow that route too probably, but it does no fingerprints at all,
10:54:13 <ais523> as is AndoDaan, as is b_jonas
10:54:50 <HackEgo> Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
10:57:56 <ais523> wow, I just got spam in French, and I could actually read enough of it to see that it was in a typical spam form
10:59:02 <boily> ais523: ooooh! can I get a copy?
11:00:21 <ais523> "Mes sincères salutations et mes excuses à votre égard. Je voudrais m'excuser de mon intrusion dans votre vie privée. Je me nomme Mme Patricia Konan , Cadre au Département de la Comptabilité à Ecobank Côte d'Ivoire. Un compte a été ouvert au sein de notre banque en 2005 et depuis 2011, aucune opération ne s'est effectuée. Ce compte présente à ce jour dans nos livres, un compte créditeur de Huit Millions Cinq Cent Mille €uros ( 8.500.
11:00:23 <ais523> 000 €). Après avoir consulté tous les dossiers relatifs à ce compte, je me suis rendue compte que je pouvais disposer aisément de cet argent si je réussissais à le virer sur un compte à l'extérieur donc je suis à la recherche d'un partenaire serieux et honnête."
11:00:28 <ais523> I can go on if you like
11:00:39 <ais523> but the second sentence struck me as a typical spam opening
11:00:57 <ais523> basically because it's saying "you don't know who I am or why I'm contacting you, that's expected"
11:01:19 <AndoDaan> "Come with me if you want to live"?
11:01:30 <ais523> most non-English spam I get is in Russian
11:01:39 <ais523> AndoDaan: I translated it as "I'd like you to forgive me for intruding into your private life"
11:01:57 <b_jonas> I've got a few spam in strange languages, but I don't recall any in French
11:01:58 <ais523> my French is not nearly as good as that of the actual French people here, though
11:02:07 <ais523> b_jonas: well French isn't exactly a strange language
11:04:12 <ais523> b_jonas: what proportion of your spam is in Hungarian, incidentally?
11:04:19 <ais523> (i.e. are spambots any good at guessing native languages?)
11:06:09 <b_jonas> ais523: I get some Hungarian spam... let me think, it's not easy to tell because I don't collect spam and rarely look at them
11:07:13 <ais523> my spam filter for my nethack4.org address runs client-side
11:07:28 <ais523> and although there have been no false positives yet, I check my spam folder every now and then
11:07:39 <b_jonas> I get some academic spam ("Dear Professor", call for papers, conference invitation, invited to LinkedIn and whatever) which is all in English (duh)
11:08:23 <b_jonas> There's some Hungarian spam I get, but I think half of them is from companies I have actually been in contact with
11:09:04 <b_jonas> ais523: what counts as an academic? I have maths publications, and the spambots don't ask for a PhD degree (which I haven't got yet)
11:09:18 <b_jonas> and they definitely don't require any higher rank or diploma
11:09:31 <ais523> b_jonas: any paper in any journal is enough, I think
11:11:11 <b_jonas> Anyway, it seems I have at least some spam in serbo-croatian (in latin letters), some chinese language spam
11:11:19 <b_jonas> and one that looks like italian to me, but let me check
11:12:41 <b_jonas> no wait, this says "Por favor" so it's either Portugese or Spanish
11:16:18 <b_jonas> hmm, multiple spam in croatian language for some reason
11:17:23 <b_jonas> and the "Por favor" one is Portugese because it has -ção
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11:20:10 <b_jonas> I've got quite some Hungarian spam but it comes mostly from the same few companies that I have once contacted
11:20:31 <b_jonas> ones that collect email addresses and then send ads forever
11:20:40 <b_jonas> those don't bother me much because they're easy to filter
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11:48:05 <fizzie> fungot: How would you even eat cereal?
11:48:05 <fungot> fizzie: not sure how to do the gules fish.
11:48:20 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I always forget that one.
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13:44:18 <J_Arcane> am i insane for thinking that a functional programming language without proper support for recursion is a dumb idea? :/
13:44:50 <J_Arcane> Also, account cleres is a spambot.
13:45:33 <ais523> J_Arcane: evidence? PMs?
13:45:57 <J_Arcane> Automatic spam PM in Spanish with an obfuscated link as soon as I messaged the channel.
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13:47:29 -!- ais523 has kicked cleres I don't have a better default kick reason, but if you're being kicked, you should know why.
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13:48:20 <ais523> what sort of spambot rejoins that quickly after kicks anyway
13:48:26 <ais523> when there'll clearly be an op watching
13:51:48 <J_Arcane> Who the hell even wastes time spamming IRC anymore for that matter?
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14:07:34 <oren> gules? gules as in heraldrish for red?
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17:56:27 <Soni> so there's this language called Lua, it's pretty standard stuff
17:56:42 <coppro> I've heard of that once or thirtice
17:57:02 <Soni> but I had an idea for an esoteric language which I shall call "verticallua" https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/0175fb380a96317f6761
17:57:55 <coppro> is it just the transpose of Lua?
17:58:46 <Soni> it's vertical lua, yes
17:59:44 <Soni> whitespace is significant as it behaves both as syntactic separator (just like in normal lua) and padding
17:59:59 <Soni> (idk any programming language that requires padding)
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18:07:04 <b_jonas> Soni: does it count as padding when fortran and some assembly languages require space between the label and instruction fields, even if the label is not present?
18:07:41 <Soni> padding is like
18:07:50 <Soni> all lines must be X bytes in length
18:08:03 <b_jonas> oh, like any language on punched cards?
18:10:12 <Soni> didn't think of that :P
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18:52:01 <int-e> such silliness, space based cloud computing...
18:55:37 <int-e> fungot: enlighten me
18:55:38 <fungot> int-e: collections are the greatest of three numbers x, y, z, r fnord rgb r, g, d, e
18:56:04 <int-e> thanks, I'll have to meditate on that
18:57:32 <HackEgo> U+A69C - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ea 9a 9c UTF-16BE: a69c Decimal: ꚜ \ ꚜ (ꚜ) \ Uppercase: U+A69C \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned) \ \ U+044A CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER HARD SIGN \ UTF-8: d1 8a UTF-16BE: 044a Decimal: ъ \ ъ (Ъ) \ Uppercase: U+042A \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-t
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20:29:07 <newsham> http://www.drmichaeljoyner.com/identical-twins-genetic-destiny/
20:32:05 <newsham> oops, that was for another chan
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21:31:54 <fizzie> "Warning: Can't delete Permanent tag Canon:TimeZone" grumble frumble exiftool.
21:32:34 <fizzie> (Didn't set the camera time zone at all, trying to fix it retroactively; exiftool can shift the timestamp itself just fine, but can't remove the timezone tags.)
21:34:35 <fizzie> It can edit the TimeZone field, but "Warning: Can't convert Canon:TimeZoneCity (not in PrintConv)".
21:35:04 <fizzie> And apparently it didn't edit Canon:TimeZone either.
21:35:14 <fizzie> Well, hopefully no program is trying to be clever enough to parse that field.
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23:31:35 <HackEgo> satbuddhi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:31:37 <lambdabot> fizzie said 11h 43m 17s ago: I always forget that one.
23:31:38 <lambdabot> int-e said 4h 37m 38s ago: ꙮans make me nervꙭus.
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23:48:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 172300Z 32012G22KT 30SM FEW060 SCT090 M03/M13 A2983 RMK SC2AC2 SLP103
23:53:29 <lambdabot> ENVA 172350Z 09004KT CAVOK 05/M02 Q1034 RMK WIND 670FT 16013KT
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00:03:36 <oerjan> boily: happy still-st patrick's day-in-canada, mr. mispronounced irish name
00:05:18 <oerjan> (admittedly it'd probably be something like boeilliach in real irish)
00:05:29 <boily> oerjan: spring is pas vraiment a-coming, but thanks!
00:05:34 <boily> heh, boeilliach :D
00:05:41 <boily> satbuddhi: satbudhelloi!
00:06:10 <oerjan> boily: irish spelling is _weird_
00:07:59 <oerjan> it's like they insisted on using vowels to tell what palatalization the consonants are, but didn't have the sense to switch altogether to cyrillic
00:10:14 <boily> Cyrrilicized Irish, Japonic Norwegian, oh my!
00:10:43 <oerjan> hm wikipedia has very few relevant hits on boily. are you related to david (also canadian)?
00:11:22 <oerjan> sometimes names have a nice article or at least disambiguation with etymology and stuff
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00:11:46 <boily> maybe? there's a David in my extended family, but he isn't a Boily.
00:12:18 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Boily also from quebec
00:15:12 <boily> well, I'd be very extremely surprised hearing of a non-Québécois Boily.
00:15:45 <oerjan> this claims it's a french name https://www.houseofnames.com/Boily-history?A=54323-292
00:17:17 <oerjan> you know, i'm starting to get skeptical to the irish claim http://forebears.io/surnames/boily
00:17:53 <boily> I... I'm having an existential crisis...
00:18:12 <boily> fungot: help me regain identity! or composition!
00:18:24 <boily> fungot: I DON'T KNOW! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!
00:18:24 <fungot> boily: i will still have the semantics for it are defined if it does. ( string-number " 5"
00:18:50 <boily> oerjan: according to the oracle, I'm string-number "5". why...
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00:21:34 <oerjan> it definitely seems more common in canada
00:23:53 <boily> at least I know that Tremblay (my dad's side) is French. I checked the genealogy and stuff.
00:24:29 * oerjan goes to check, just in case
00:25:28 <oerjan> "This interesting name, recorded in Fifeshire, Scotland from the middle of the 13th Century, derives from the ..."
00:25:31 <oerjan> Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Tremblay#ixzz3Ugzwp3kt
00:26:08 <oerjan> copying from that page added an extra line...
00:27:02 <oerjan> which sort of ruins my plans because now you can easily check it
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00:28:51 <HackEgo> vodkode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:29:14 <oerjan> i think i've seen em before
00:29:37 <oerjan> although e may not have been relcomed
00:31:49 <boily> when in doubt, relcome.
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00:43:28 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: the proc is invoked. before or after the evaluator transfers control to a certain class of anime characters with long hair and loud music
00:43:28 <fungot> oerjan: there are very rarely places where you can define a local variable x. x
00:43:30 <HackEgo> 1235) <fungot> boily: the proc is invoked. before or after the evaluator transfers control to a certain class of anime characters with long hair and loud music
00:44:03 <oerjan> fungot: you should put that language on the wiki hth
00:44:04 <fungot> oerjan: h_________e______l_________l_________o_____,____ fnord! you send an email to the mailing list? if so, there you go
00:44:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:44:46 <oerjan> > map length $ group "h_________e______l_________l_________o_____,____"
00:44:47 <lambdabot> [1,9,1,6,1,9,1,9,1,5,1,4]
00:46:34 <oerjan> now i wonder why it didn't fnord that word
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00:49:00 <boily> fungot: you should fnord more hth
00:49:00 <fungot> boily: any thoughts on how feasible extending a compiler would be similar to the one in my opinion syntactically as well
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00:51:09 <fizzie> The word does not seem to appear even once in the material I think the style was trained on.
00:51:39 <fizzie> Oh, case-sensitive search.
00:52:00 <fizzie> It appears three times, said by EgoBot, in what looks like some sort of a hangman game.
00:52:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/Aibi
00:52:55 <fizzie> It fnorded the following word, because those are (probably) unique.
00:54:40 <oerjan> a word of utmost fnordinance
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02:41:04 <darsie> You could ask your question.
02:41:30 <goofygoobers> Okay, my abusive biological father and stepmother were into weird shit
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02:41:57 <goofygoobers> I remember one of the odd things they told me was that rocks have magical powers and that you can have a conversation with rocks if you really wanted to
02:42:31 <goofygoobers> Also, they had these weird brown pebbles (maybe little stones?) on top of their door frames
02:43:00 <goofygoobers> I don't understand the meaning or significance of that.
02:48:23 <elliott__> i don't know where you all came from but this is good
02:48:26 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:51:58 <elliott__> i'm afraid i don't know the answer
02:52:32 <oerjan> <goofygoobers> Is this really a channel about the occult? <-- no hth
02:52:48 <goofygoobers> I tried looking it up, and I can't find anything on it
02:52:52 <elliott__> please don't make them leave before they tell us where they came from
02:53:12 <elliott__> (i'm having a horrible day, why am i even talking in here)
02:53:23 <darsie> goofygoobers: This chan seems to be about programming languages.
02:54:38 <goofygoobers> elliott__: Are there any occult related channels on here?
02:54:52 <elliott__> probably not. freenode is mainly open source stuff
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02:55:27 <oerjan> we don't know of any good occult channels or we'd put it in that welcome message (the channel it has is mostly dead iirc)
02:56:19 <oerjan> although, if you all went there, maybe it wouldn't be.
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02:58:23 * Tiff_the_Amazing will remember this channel as it is also relevant to her interests
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03:00:46 <elliott__> that's a pretty good retention rate
03:02:22 <oerjan> ^ul ((::**)~^)((((:(((((((((((_)(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)(!^))~*^^S!)(:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)):^(()~)~**~^(:)~((a(~^)*~**)~a)~a(**~:((:)~(*)**)~a*~(^))**a(~*^^^!!^)***(~)~a(~a*^:)**a(:)**~^!!!a(~^)*~**)~a((, )S:^)**^):^
03:02:24 <fungot> 3, 13, 1113, 3113, 132113, 1113122113, 311311222113, 13211321322113, 1113122113121113222113, 31131122211311123113322113, 132113213221133112132123222113, 11131221131211132221232112111312111213322113, 31131122211311123113321112131221123113111231121123222113, 132113213221133112132123123112111311222112 ...out of time!
03:02:50 <elliott__> are you trying to scare her off :p
03:02:52 <oerjan> just a quick underload demonstration in the vague hope of bumping it up slightly
03:03:19 <pikhq> fungot, why are you so fungot?
03:03:19 <fungot> pikhq: buit this is the internet way. i actually own the game, actual code would help.
03:04:28 <oerjan> boobs are extremely off-topic hth
03:04:51 <pikhq> Eh. Not like I don't see boobs often.
03:06:16 <elliott__> pls don't link nudes in #esoteric if you are below the maximum of 18 and the age of consent in your area
03:06:24 * pikhq is more feelin' like some gay porno right now
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03:08:04 <elliott__> i don't believe this is going to be boobs
03:08:12 <pikhq> elliott__: Was it creepy?
03:08:32 <pikhq> Yeah, I was expecting something a bit more trolly.
03:08:56 <pikhq> goofygoobers: We're cynical internet people.
03:09:01 <oerjan> sometimes a boob is just a boob </freud>
03:09:17 <pikhq> elliott__: You're one of the more cynical people I know.
03:09:19 <goofygoobers> Being cynical doesn't mean you can't like something
03:09:29 <elliott__> that's just because i only say things in #esoteric when i'm in a bad mood -_-
03:09:40 <pikhq> Okay, that might be it
03:14:18 <oerjan> apparently freud never actually said that. also, he was _really_ addicted to smoking.
03:14:53 <oerjan> http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/12/just-a-cigar/
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04:18:53 <Sgeo> I can't hear the mosquito tone :(
04:19:00 <Sgeo> Or maybe my headphones are just bad
04:21:01 <oerjan> when the mosquitos attack, you will be so hosed
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05:04:27 <Tetrapyloctomy> Touch your computer screen, Its warm like flesh but its not. Not yet
05:05:30 <oerjan> sorry but it is cold hth
05:06:27 <pikhq> Oh awesome that thing still updates.
05:07:00 <pikhq> http://windows95tips.com/
05:08:24 <pikhq> http://windows95tips.com/post/34200923828 This is of course the one being referenced.
05:09:41 <pikhq> It's Neil Cicieraga. Somewhat dada Internet humor is, like, his thing.
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08:52:53 * Taneb suddenly deeply grasps pipelining
08:55:32 <Taneb> Such is what procrastinating doing your laundry can teach you
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09:09:25 <b_jonas> I wish there was a distributed version control system with a model simlar to subversion and its ease of use as well. Alas, that may be impossible.
09:11:57 <b_jonas> That reminds me, has anyone ever worked with the C api of svn? It seems to be well-designed but complicated. Is it difficult to use, or is it just that the description is scary at first?
09:12:06 <b_jonas> I might want to try to use it in the future, that's why I'm asking.
09:29:00 <f|`-`|f> YOu'd probably have to get into functional relational databases, b_jonas
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11:46:46 <b_jonas> Is there any wiki software that uses some version control system as the backend to store the history of its content?
11:47:06 <Taneb> Yes but I forgot what it's called
11:47:13 <Taneb> I've seen ones using git and darcs
11:47:18 <b_jonas> Wikiplia does that, and I thought at first it was weird, but now I'm starting to think using a version control system this way could be a good idea (or a very bad idea depending on how you're doing it).
11:47:21 <Taneb> (different ones, not both at the same time)
11:47:28 <b_jonas> (Wikiplia uses cvs I think.)
11:47:35 <Taneb> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/gitit
11:49:45 <Taneb> There are almost certainly other alternatives available
11:50:23 <b_jonas> I'm still asking that thing about the C api of svn.
12:01:37 <fizzie> I think it's somewhat version-control-system-agnostic.
12:02:12 <fizzie> Or at least it officially supports git, svn, bzr, monotone, mercurial, darcs, tla, cvs.
12:02:16 <fizzie> https://ikiwiki.info/rcs/
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13:43:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semi-quantum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42142&oldid=42096 * Mazeman * (+0) /* Setup */
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13:44:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semi-quantum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42143&oldid=42142 * Mazeman * (+0) /* Define your own */
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14:26:50 <oren> So I finished my C neural networks library, but I think IEEE floating point is probably not a good way to load real-number data into a NN.
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14:28:47 <oren> But then the question becomes, what is a good way?
14:31:07 <oren> Perhaps one input for the scale, on input for value?
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14:46:43 <Jafet> What is bad about it?
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14:59:20 <oren> Jafet: mainly the fact it takes 64 inputs to input a real number as a double.
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15:01:31 <oren> But maybe we can train a layer to "compress" the data in the best way for the purpose
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15:08:08 <Jafet> Perhaps real numbers should be provided to neurons as real numbers.
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15:10:30 <int-e> DarkPrincess__: What are you doing?
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15:11:51 <int-e> . o O ( /ban DarkPrincess*!*@*$##fixyourconnection )
15:12:27 <int-e> elliott__: can you do the honors?
15:13:08 <elliott__> I have a fixyourconnection ban there from
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15:14:34 <oren> Jafet: I've tried that, it seems to have... problems
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15:15:57 <oren> specifically, when tring to capture functions with high complexity at, say 100 and 1, and low complexity around the other numbers
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15:16:35 <int-e> oh well, /ignore DarkPrincess*!* JOINS PARTS QUITS does the trick, too.
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15:22:04 <oren> Hmmm.... perhaps having a compression layer for double inputs (64 by 8 or so) is the best option
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16:11:28 <tswett> http://thatsmathematics.com/mathgen/paper.php?nameType[1]=famous&nameType[2]=famous&nameType[3]=famous&nameType[4]=famous&seed=1935868566&format=pdf
16:11:47 <tswett> Hey everyone, I'm having some trouble understanding one of the definitions in this paper.
16:12:22 <tswett> "Suppose there exists a multiply Jacobi-Galileo right-Ramanujan-Descartes prime. We say an isometry F is projective if it is pseudo-almost everywhere free and co-Newton."
16:12:31 <tswett> What does it mean for an isometry to be "co-Newton"?
16:17:00 <myname> should have uploaded it somewhere else
16:17:57 <tswett> I should save one of these and email it to my co-workers as an example of somebody's amazing mathematical prowess.
16:20:26 <int-e> "pseudo-almost everywhere", I think this is on topic here
16:23:11 <int-e> "The goal of the present paper is to derive algebras."
16:23:29 <int-e> This would be good, but not as the first sentence of section 6 :)
16:24:53 <int-e> This is also nice: lim sup sinh(0^2)
16:26:58 <int-e> I want this book: "A First Course in Pure Knot Theory"
16:27:49 <int-e> Or this: Euclidean Model Theory
16:28:17 <int-e> Oh, I need to stop. One last one: "On the existence of sets"
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16:36:57 <int-e> myname: Unfortunately, that one is only a paper.
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19:01:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42144&oldid=40301 * SuperJedi224 * (+86) /* Knuth's Arrow Notation */ new section
19:01:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42145&oldid=42144 * SuperJedi224 * (+3) /* Knuth's Arrow Notation */
19:02:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42146&oldid=42145 * SuperJedi224 * (+93) /* Knuth's Arrow Notation */
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19:42:26 <fungot> int-e: one unlambda, three intercals, and one contains twice as much happens. it does
19:46:57 <b_jonas> what's the problem, goofy?
19:47:59 <b_jonas> we've lost Jiři Matoušek: http://kam.mff.cuni.cz/Matousek-obituary.html
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19:59:21 <oren> lol, hello, nice tits
19:59:56 <oren> you or someone youposted the photos of
20:01:45 <b_jonas> sorry, his name is spelt Jiří Matoušek
20:01:51 <b_jonas> (seems I'm not good in languages)
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22:17:12 <boily> fungot: when will spring come?
22:17:12 <fungot> boily: http://code.eso-std.org/ c-intercal/ pit/ tests/ iffit2.b98
22:17:35 <fungot> boily: no, au contraire. it is also used for true, false
22:25:16 <Sgeo> "Frog Fractions 2 giveaway! To make it more interesting we've removed one letter from the download code. C:\windows\s?stem32\freecell.exe"
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22:58:35 <fungot> int-e: i think mzc will do it correctly you need to run.
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23:06:27 <int-e> boily: Доброылй вечер
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23:24:33 <boily> доброржан пожаловать!
23:25:02 <boily> (hmm... shouldn't it have been доброгян?)
23:30:12 <oerjan> although my r certainly isn't palatalized
23:30:43 <oerjan> although my dialect _does_ have some palatalized consonants, r is not one of them.
23:32:22 <oerjan> bloody google steals too many keypresses
23:33:36 <int-e> how could google steal keypresses?
23:33:37 <oerjan> would доброръян make sense?
23:33:49 <oerjan> int-e: well ^Z doesn't work to undo my typing
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23:35:06 <int-e> all words starting with добр... seem to be related to being good or kind.
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23:35:39 <int-e> oh you mean ръ, not I don't think so
23:37:15 <int-e> oerjan: yes, I thought of that as well, after my first attempy
23:37:49 <int-e> (which knowing you you might've seen in the logs. but perhaps not.)
23:37:55 <oerjan> wait don't you actually know russian or something
23:37:59 <boily> (oerjan sees all.)
23:38:13 <int-e> I've forgotten most of what I learned.
23:38:34 <oerjan> although feel free to impress me by knowing it as well
23:39:45 <int-e> oerjan: I recall some useless phrases like "Я не понимаю по-русский."
23:42:43 <int-e> And numbers, один два три четыре пять шесть семь восемь девять десять
23:43:13 <int-e> speak would be "говарю"
23:43:42 <int-e> (I got some numbers spelled incorrectly at first, google helped.)
23:45:06 <int-e> There's little logic to all those ь... мягкий знак... whatever.
23:47:05 <int-e> Why does googling "мягкые знаки" turn up a youtube video with a Rubik's cube sceenshot?
23:47:20 <int-e> this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_kU_y07J5o
23:47:35 <oerjan> erm it means the consonant is palatalized
23:48:19 <int-e> oerjan: try that with an M
23:49:00 <int-e> The ть are common, and actually I wasn't complaining about those.
23:49:46 <oerjan> well i _think_ there's supposed to be an y-like sound after the m?
23:50:16 <oerjan> i'm not very proficient at that though
23:52:12 <oerjan> my dabblings have led me to the unanswered question of whether there is any difference between ш and сь
23:54:12 <oerjan> it's like they set up this nice system of showing palatization with vowels and then they completely break it with the fricatives
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00:12:23 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150319-mtv.jpg
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00:31:01 <int-e> oerjan: They're entirely different. ш is /ʃ/ while сь is /s'/, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejective_consonant has a sample of the latter.
00:31:34 <int-e> (so fortunately my first instinct was about right: s' starts out pretty much like a normal s)
00:31:51 <int-e> (but I wasn't certain enough about that to share that idea)
00:34:15 <oerjan> java still keeps blocking wikipedia's sound app :(
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00:36:24 <oerjan> @tell int-e I am extremely skeptical at your ejective consonant claim, are you sure the ' you found was really meant as the proper ipa symbol?
00:37:18 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology doesn't use that symbol
00:38:42 <int-e> Still... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Ru-%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%8C.ogg
00:39:37 <int-e> on the page you just linked to
00:40:06 <oerjan> i basically cannot listen to any mediawiki sounds
00:40:51 <int-e> [sʲ] is what they use there, mm.
00:41:52 <int-e> Anyway, I really should sleep.
00:44:03 <oerjan> if ш is in the same spot as ж then i think i get a better idea, the latter is supposedly slightly retroflexy
00:44:30 <oerjan> oh wait it says retroflex on the ipa link
00:44:41 <boily> fungot: are you retroflexy?
00:44:42 <fungot> boily: well then. how's the implementation?') on channel in case am being ignored, since i don't think
00:45:01 <boily> fungot: yes you think.
00:45:01 <fungot> boily: that was a bit of predicates
00:45:08 <fungot> boily: the whole point of standards is fnord? ( i never used modems as file storages! type `/msg egobot !hangman word
00:45:15 <oerjan> ok ш is supposedly about the same as norwegian rs
00:45:59 <oerjan> ah fungot has detected the true evil of standards
00:45:59 <fungot> oerjan: maybe you?)) for fnord and fnord." and by " right thing"
00:45:59 <boily> oerjan: you got me trying to pronounce an «r» at the same place as a ш. it's not a good feeling.
00:46:20 <oerjan> boily: um rs is _not_ a trill in norwegian hth
00:46:37 <oerjan> it's just an honest-to-goodness retroflex fricative
00:46:39 <boily> what? “rs” is a digraph?
00:46:57 <oerjan> r+dental generally means retroflex in norwegian
00:47:11 <oerjan> sometimes even across word boundaries
00:47:52 <boily> yesterday I learned that I'm French, and today you're telling me that retroflexes spill across boundaries. we live in a mad world.
00:49:06 <oerjan> on the plus side, that's about the only sandhi/liaison norwegian has
00:51:25 <oerjan> boily: norwegian has many digraphs. gj, kj, sj, even a trigraph: skj (same sound as sj)
00:52:28 * boily sings «gje gje gje gje ♪»
00:52:29 <oerjan> sk may count too, it's also the same sound in front of some vowels/diphthongs
00:52:52 <oerjan> boily: that's exactly how it's pronounced
00:53:02 <oerjan> may also be written just j
00:53:12 <oerjan> or just g in front of the same vowels
00:53:52 <oerjan> that's a general feature of the combinations ending in j
00:55:05 <oerjan> we're not big on unique spelling of phonemes
00:58:15 * oerjan idly tests that his own dialect also sandhis palatalization
00:58:33 <oerjan> but that's not a feature of the norwegian that's taught to foreigners
00:58:46 <oren> sandhi tte nani?
00:59:14 <oren> what is sandhi?
01:00:25 <oerjan> that language is supposedly even fiercer than french at making phonology cross word boundaries
01:01:04 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi
01:02:09 <oerjan> french "liaison" is a subset
01:04:06 <oerjan> apparently it also covers things inside words
01:04:46 <oerjan> i guess norwegian has some more of that
01:06:12 <oren> Hmm... So japanese rendaku is included
01:06:21 <oerjan> was just about to mention that
01:07:45 <boily> French liaison is strangely logical, and goes with the actually written spelled letters.
01:09:18 <oren> if only the french would put ' whereever letters aren't said, that would be great
01:10:13 <oren> like je parl' tu parl'
01:11:53 <oren> A'tho' not that english has any ri't telling french what to do in that regard
01:13:13 <oren> seriously I can't think of a word in which 'gh' is pronounced
01:13:32 <oren> Oh, rite, the word laff!
01:15:01 <oren> (that is, 'laugh' which is not /læug/)
01:16:17 <oren> A good moderate spelling reform would be to respell all words containing 'gh'
01:17:16 <oren> (except benghazi and other legitimately foreign words)
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01:21:39 <boily> ch'parl', tsu parl', i parl', a parl', on parl', vous parlez, i parl'.
01:22:00 <boily> (probably «vou parlé» if you're going to be phonetic.)
01:22:52 <oerjan> you are not making a good argument for making french spelling phonetic :P
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01:23:39 <oren> the brite gost ruffly laffed at the eity hi firefiters
01:23:42 * oerjan has no idea what "a" is supposed to be
01:24:12 <oerjan> ok unless you're crazy enough to pronounce elle that way
01:25:13 <boily> yes, it's informally pronounced that way.
01:25:28 <oren> of course the words tho and thru are already standard spellings
01:26:16 <boily> oren: /se.skæ.lɑ.dzi/ ← “that's what she said”
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01:27:03 <boily> s/oren/oerjan/, but I guess oren fits too.
01:27:29 <oren> ce est que l'elle dit?
01:28:19 <oren> did I get that right?
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01:28:27 <boily> «c'est ce qu'elle a dit», but close enough.
01:29:59 <boily> the /l/ in there is liaison between «elle» and «a». if it hadn't been there, it would've been /se.skæˑ.dzi/ «c'est ce qu'elle dit».
01:32:05 <boily> what's a devadehosa?
01:33:08 <boily> fungot: oerjan is speaking in tongues again. care to translate?
01:33:09 <fungot> boily: very cool. fpga). fnord) some kind of pervert. " let out your inner perl programmer!
01:33:32 <oerjan> very good, except the perl
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01:34:41 <oerjan> boily: i merely translated your phrase to my dialect. after a brief detour through some other dialect because i couldn't remember my own hth also it's stressed on the o
01:35:32 <oerjan> (it may possibly be my grandparents')
01:35:48 <oren> print"this is a regex matching itself"if($i~=s/(??{$i})/)
01:36:27 * boily mapoles oren for public indecency
01:36:55 <boily> oerjan: that's what your grandmother said.
01:41:58 <oren> hmm, so we have fite-fought, buy-bought, seek-sought, and teach-taught. What the hell is this somewhat-regular insanity
01:42:57 <oren> So we'd spell them fot, bot, sot, and tot respectively?
01:44:35 <boily> ring-rang-rung, sing-sang-sung, bring-brang-brung...
01:45:12 <boily> boring. (borang, borung :P)
01:46:02 <boily> I can't do that, my tongue's not long enough.
01:46:35 <oerjan> proto-indoeuropean was a badass language
01:46:58 <oren> oerjan: based on phonology alone, even
01:47:13 <boily> (French verbs are regular too! devoir-dû, avoir-eu, lire-lu, mouvoir-mu, pouvoir-pu, savoir-su, taire-tu, voir-vu...)
01:47:44 <oerjan> boily: but you can't blame those on PIE so much
01:48:21 <oren> drive drove driven dive dove divven?
01:48:21 <boily> my feeling is that pouvoir and voir can be easily traced back to PIE without too many changes.
01:48:37 <oerjan> maybe a time traveller took french back and it eventually turned into PIE
01:48:52 <boily> drive driven, gave given, it's dangerous to stay ♪
01:49:03 <oerjan> boily: well sure, but the fact they're that irregular in french isn't really PIE's fault
01:49:24 <oerjan> oren: potesse, actually
01:50:08 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/possum#Latin
01:50:33 <oerjan> so yeah it was irregular in latin but french turned it up a notch
01:50:52 <oerjan> voir wasn't really that irregular though
01:50:58 <oren> I like the way only two verbs in Japanese are irregular
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01:51:29 <oren> unfortunately they are very common verbs
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01:51:54 <boily> avoir and être have endless resources of fun! syncretism for the win!
01:52:15 <oerjan> i think avoir was entirely regular in latin
01:53:01 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/habeo
01:53:02 <boily> j'ai, j'aurai, j'avais, j'ai eu, que j'aie...
01:53:35 <boily> je suis, je serai, j'étais, j'ai été, que je sois.
01:53:38 <oerjan> être not so much, and i learned the other day that some of that _does_ go back to PIE
01:54:43 <oren> taberu-tabenai-tabeta-tabemasu(eat) iru-inai-itta-imasu(to be) but then... kuru-konai-katta-kimasu(to come, WTF)
01:54:45 <boily> Spanish kept their ser y estar separate, whereas we conflagrated ours.
01:55:17 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure whether ha in norwegian counts as irregular or not.
01:55:19 <boily> oren: I'm drawing a blank for する's past...
01:55:27 <oren> boily: that means to burn, you want conflated, to conflagrated
01:55:29 <oerjan> være (to be) certainly does
01:55:52 <boily> darn. what was it again?
01:56:03 <boily> oren: I know. it was entirely volitional.
01:56:05 <oerjan> otoh verbs have so few forms you can't really get up to french proportions regardless
01:56:16 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
01:56:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/conspirabiology \ wisdom/context
01:56:30 <HackEgo> wisdom/disflagrate \ wisdom/flagpole \ wisdom/weetoflake
01:56:35 <HackEgo> disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
01:57:12 <oren> suru-shinai-shita-shimasu is a little more regular than kuru
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01:59:24 <oerjan> oren: so that makes 3 irregular verbs?
01:59:37 * oerjan recalls reading once that turkish has only 1
02:02:14 <oerjan> "Almost all Turkish verbs are conjugated in the same way, most notable exception being the irregular and defective verb i-, the Turkish copula (corresponding to English to be) [...]"
02:02:29 <oerjan> i guess as usual, exaggerated
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02:06:19 <oren> oerjan: yeah. the three would be kuru, suru, and aru which goes aru-nai-atta-arimasu
02:06:44 <oren> everything else falls into one of two patterns
02:07:24 <HackEgo> Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
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02:08:54 <HackEgo> false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga. It's also not true.
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02:49:57 <oren> how the hell am I suppose to remember which is conjunction and which is disjunction? why can't we call them anding and orring?
02:51:29 <oren> anding normal form is an anding of orrings of literals, where a literal is either an atom or its notting.
02:51:50 <oerjan> notting orrible about that
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04:48:10 <shachaf> oerjan: complete coïncidence hth
04:48:25 <oerjan> shachaf: IF YOU SAY SO
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07:06:43 <L8D> is there a channel for discussion around experimental programming language design?
07:06:53 <L8D> or is that this channel?
07:07:14 <L8D> or maybe there's a forum I should go to
07:07:37 <coppro> in practice, it's a channel for discussion of anything bug
07:07:46 <coppro> but yeah, programming language discussion is welcome
07:08:03 <L8D> so I'm just looking for opinions on this one language I'm designing
07:08:33 <coppro> is it a brainfuck variant?
07:08:41 <L8D> http://lpaste.net/127721
07:08:56 <L8D> It's not esoteric in the sense the befunge and brainfuck are
07:09:06 <L8D> which is why I'm curious if this is the right channel
07:09:49 <coppro> is this... defining the values in terms of the functions, rather than the functions in terms of the values?
07:09:55 <myname> imo this is the right channel for anything in theoretical computer science
07:09:58 <L8D> basically, it's a combination of Haskell and an absurd Self dialect
07:10:33 <coppro> yeah this is definitely the right channel for htat
07:10:44 <coppro> myname: I'd love to chat about quantum algorithms sometime
07:10:57 <L8D> coppro: ok so here's the thing
07:11:10 <L8D> there are two types of values
07:11:13 <L8D> functions, and objects
07:11:26 <L8D> is f is a function, then it is applying f to x
07:11:47 <L8D> if f is an object, then it is calling/retrieving the method x of f
07:12:23 <L8D> at the top-level are namespace declarations
07:12:31 <L8D> well, class declarations
07:13:12 <L8D> a class declaration is just a namespace of functions
07:13:19 <coppro> have you seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
07:13:38 <L8D> I think I wrote an article in there actually
07:13:46 <L8D> but it was a long time ago, and I was dumb
07:13:56 <L8D> (and for a brainfuck derivative)
07:14:07 <coppro> that's ok, a lot of them are dumb... oh nevermind, you suck
07:14:21 <coppro> but seriously, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tarpit
07:14:32 <coppro> who came up with that crap?
07:15:46 <L8D> I'm just here to get some first thoughts on the syntax and general ideas behind the language
07:16:13 <L8D> or any suggestions on good ways to implement it, or where to learn to write a specification for it
07:16:38 <coppro> I'm not so good on the thinking bit
07:17:10 <coppro> implementation side, usually you want to go lexer -> parser -> AST -> semantic analysis -> generation/execution
07:17:18 <L8D> well I know that
07:17:36 <coppro> for the grammar, decide what your tokens are, and then write a grammar
07:17:40 <L8D> I've written a few toy-language interpreters in my time
07:17:53 <L8D> I'm also currently writing a parser for this exact code
07:18:23 <coppro> I'm not really sure what advice I could offer on implementation then
07:18:58 <L8D> Also, I need a good name
07:18:59 <coppro> unless you have specific questions
07:19:07 <coppro> how are you on spec writing?
07:19:30 <L8D> I've never written a formal language spec before
07:19:37 <L8D> so I don't know where to start
07:20:22 <coppro> there are a number of approaches. Often a very readable way is to take the grammar, and basically annotate the productions
07:21:39 <coppro> there tends to be a fair bit of boilerplate, like the part where you explain your variant of EBNF
07:24:04 <L8D> on the semantics side of things, I have no idea how I'm going to implement monadic blocks, and how I'm going to solve type ambiguity problems
07:25:04 <L8D> as in, multi-line blocks of monadic computations
07:25:19 <L8D> in terms of syntax though
07:25:22 <L8D> yeah do-blocks
07:25:34 <coppro> go the agda route and just allow inventing arbitrary syntax :P
07:25:58 <L8D> well part of the purpose of the language is to have incredibly minimal/simple syntax
07:26:33 <L8D> I've seen Idris and Haskell, and the only thing I know about agda is that you can use anything as a variable name
07:26:38 <coppro> it's a fascinating example of custom syntax gone horribly wrong.
07:26:45 <coppro> or horribly right, depending on perspective
07:27:09 <coppro> yeah, in agda there are a very small number of reserved characters, and as long as you don't use one, you can write whatever.
07:27:11 <L8D> for example, if statements look like: if some_expr then true_case else false_case
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07:27:30 <L8D> that is because 'if' is the 'id' function (alternate name)
07:27:36 <coppro> the name is actually if_then_else
07:27:47 <coppro> the underscores represent places for arguments
07:27:50 <L8D> and 'then' is a method on booleans to return maybes
07:28:02 <L8D> and 'else' is a method on maybes to unwrap themselves
07:28:23 <L8D> there's also the 'case' method on booleans for doing this without the extra syntax
07:28:29 <L8D> some_expr if true_case false_case
07:28:35 <coppro> yeah, that's not how it's done
07:28:39 <coppro> http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php?n=ReferenceManual.Mixfix
07:28:43 <L8D> some_expr case true_case false_case
07:28:51 <L8D> I'm talking about my language
07:28:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Did they ever take care of the issue with ":i ->" in ghci?
07:31:07 <L8D> another problem I have
07:31:54 <L8D> since all types are inferred, creating and using monads and custom types will be a problem
07:32:09 <L8D> which is the type ambiguity problem
07:32:30 <L8D> so there probably will have to be some way of annotating types, but the under-the-hood type system is too crazy
07:33:11 <oerjan> shachaf: um i didn't get any real response so i assume not?
07:33:14 <L8D> to achieve class-less polymorphism I have to denote types as sets of possible methods and their types
07:33:36 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm talking about a different bug I reported a while ago, where :i (->) works and :i -> doesn't.
07:33:47 <shachaf> Oh, I guess your bug is old, I thought it was from just now.
07:33:56 <shachaf> But it's the patch which is from just now.
07:35:23 <L8D> I also have no idea how inheritance will work
07:36:22 <oerjan> shachaf: i didn't get it in the mail yet
07:36:39 <oerjan> and have been missing Cc: messages from the trac
07:37:29 <oerjan> why isn't that phab thing a link
07:38:23 <oerjan> also int-e has also been missing some, so it's not just my mail
07:38:54 <oerjan> shachaf: wait obviously you don't count, ghc-tickets is working fine.
07:39:09 <oerjan> but i am not subscribing to that, just Cc:ed
07:39:39 <shachaf> It's annoying when that when you subscribe to ghc-tickets, tickets you're Cc:ed on stop reaching you.
07:39:54 <shachaf> Somehow it all gets merged into one. There isn't a way to discriminate even in the headers.
07:40:10 <oerjan> oh well at least the trac allows me to search for what i'm Cc:ed on
07:40:51 <oerjan> except that doesn't _really_ help because the search doesn't have any "last change" column
07:41:46 <oerjan> so where does one report a bug in the trac itself :P
07:43:13 <oerjan> <L8D> to achieve class-less polymorphism I have to denote types as sets of possible methods and their types <-- sounds like ocaml except it has classes too
07:45:08 <oerjan> and iirc some extra hoops you have to go through when using subclasses
07:45:54 <oerjan> oh wait it's a link in the status menu
07:47:26 <shachaf> oerjan: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/query?status=closed&status=infoneeded&status=merge&status=new&status=patch&status=upstream&cc=~oerjan&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=changetime&order=changetime hth
07:47:44 <shachaf> you gotta click on the thing that says columns
07:47:50 <shachaf> i didn't see it at first either
07:51:07 <oerjan> ok all is ... well, not quite as annoying
07:54:08 <shachaf> This Cc: bug must be a conspiracy, since I just look at all the tickets as a result.
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11:15:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42147&oldid=42146 * Keymaker * (+189) /* Knuth's Arrow Notation */
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13:09:34 <HackEgo> olist 978: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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14:07:12 <ais523> "On behalf of IT, this IT Alert Notification was brought to you by the Help Desk in the Customer Support Department. This is a group email account and its been monitored 24/7, therefore, please do not ignore this notification, because its very compulsory."
14:07:35 <ais523> signed "Admin Service", and copyright to "Microsoft outlook"
14:09:45 <ais523> how could it not be spam
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14:17:28 <fizzie> Very compulsory spam,.
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14:35:32 <int-e> password2: that makes it official.
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14:37:53 <Zuu> password2, stop hacking all my accounts and display my secret passwords in public like that!
14:38:02 <Zuu> so annoying
14:40:19 * Zuu rolls the number on all his passwords, again!
14:55:58 <FreeFull> ais523: If spam was real, everybody would be so rich
14:56:33 <ais523> FreeFull: nah, if spam was real, nobody's email account would work
14:56:41 <ais523> so you wouldn't be able to receive the trillion dollar donations
14:57:22 <Jafet> That is a very complex password
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17:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42148 * 80.222.241.129 * (+2) Created page with "xd"
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17:50:10 <oren> Which programming languages are usable (by which i mean, by madmen, not necessary regular people) as an OS interface?
17:50:56 <oren> IIRC lisp and forth were used, are there any others
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17:56:00 <b_jonas> oren: what do you mean "an OS interface"?
17:56:21 <oren> b_jonas: yeah in the same capacity as a shell
17:56:35 <b_jonas> in old computers, BASIC was the shell
17:56:43 <oren> Oh right *slaps forhed*
17:57:57 <oren> Perl could work, I wonder if anyone does that
17:58:33 <b_jonas> well, I have a rescue entry in the window manager menu to start a terminal emulator with perl loaded, in case I mess up the shell so much it can't start
17:58:47 <b_jonas> as in, while the computer and X11 and the window manager is already running
17:59:16 <b_jonas> but you could basically use anything that way, not only perl
17:59:47 <b_jonas> you could use, say, emacs (I don't have one on my machine but you know)
18:00:13 <oren> Anything that has the ability to run external programs anyway, certainly
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18:00:26 <b_jonas> anyway, some APL and the smalltalk ide were used as shells
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18:00:51 <b_jonas> ruby (irb) or python rather
18:01:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42149&oldid=42147 * SuperJedi224 * (+12) /* Knuth's Arrow Notation */
18:02:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42150&oldid=42149 * SuperJedi224 * (+96) /* Knuth's Arrow Notation */
18:07:45 <Jafet> Madmen? grub2 command line
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18:25:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Matrix]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42151&oldid=17326 * 85.250.112.204 * (+0)
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19:31:47 <quintopia> is there some windows program that can tell me which program is opening iexplore in the background?
19:36:47 <b_jonas> quintopia: any program that uses windows's XML parsing library, I hear
19:39:37 <int-e> so meta... http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2015/03/19/0668-deus-ex-machina/
19:40:20 <fizzie> quintopia: I'd look into the Sysinternals stuff.
19:40:38 <fizzie> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb795533.aspx has some overview list
19:41:11 <fizzie> Process Explorer/Monitor tend to be the most generally useful.
19:43:08 <oren> what would happen if I ran pkill pkill
19:43:25 <oren> would the process commit suicide
19:43:58 <oren> hmm, how would I tell?
19:44:01 <int-e> killall: no process found
19:44:02 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘killall’Not in scope: ‘killall’
19:44:47 <oren> pkill is silent, killall returns an error
19:46:39 <int-e> but pkill pkill doesn't attempt to kill itself either. It will kill other running copies of pkill, however.
19:47:17 <int-e> (tested with strace -ekill pkill pkill and gdb for having a stopped pkill around)
19:49:36 <oren> I wasn't even born when that game came out
19:50:17 <int-e> I was born then, I never played the game. It didn't save me from the meme.
19:50:23 <oren> Quality of translations has gone way up
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19:51:05 <int-e> (The meme was started much later anyway; in 2000/2001, according to Wikipedia)
19:51:32 <oren> Maybe it had to wait until most games had good translation
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19:52:52 <int-e> Nowadays even games that have a bad translation at first are likely to be patched later on. Without broadband internet, patches were really rare.
19:53:27 <int-e> (Just imagine, software back then had to work out of the box!)
19:54:00 <b_jonas> int-e: well, even then software had bugs and sometimes had newer fixed versions released
19:54:08 <int-e> (Though of course, there were plenty of bugs back then as well.)
19:54:52 <oren> MAIA HIII MAIA HUUU MAIA HAAA MAIA HAHA
19:55:03 <b_jonas> of course only some bugs got fixed, others remained because they didn't impact normal gameplay much, or because they would have been technically difficult to fix with the limited hardware
19:55:51 <oren> b_jonas: Some bugs were awesome, for example the one in pokemon that let you get mew
19:56:25 <b_jonas> get mew? you're not supposed to do that
19:56:35 <b_jonas> what happens if you get mew? can you have it fight?
19:57:03 <oren> pokemon red/blue
19:57:59 <oren> well that game was full of crazy bugs, basically the item screen can be glitched into modifying arbitrary memory
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21:07:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42152&oldid=40653 * GeorgeEpicGen * (-4055) This page is to be deleted
21:08:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42153&oldid=42139 * GeorgeEpicGen * (-13) /* A */
21:08:30 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
21:08:46 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
21:09:34 <oren> You have no chance to survive make your time
21:10:48 <oren> Someone should make a game and translate it that badly into japanese
21:21:32 <oren> Hmm... it's actually hard to make errors in Japanese that don't just sound like colloquial
21:23:43 <oren> But then "what you say" is sort of correct colloquial english
21:24:48 <oren> Which natural language is the most fault-tolerant
21:35:28 <oren> Actually, typewritten japanese is extremely un fault tolerant because of the kanji.
21:50:47 <Vorpal> oren, Well you can probably make yourself at least partially understood in most natural languages when it comes to wording and such. Even if it isn't idiomatic or even correct, there is enough information for a human to guess what was meant
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22:28:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iamevn * New user account
22:42:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42154&oldid=41325 * SuperJedi224 * (+238) /* Developing a language which compiles to BrainF*** */ new section
22:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42155&oldid=42154 * SuperJedi224 * (+13) /* Developing a language which compiles to BrainF*** */
22:44:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42156&oldid=42155 * SuperJedi224 * (+89) /* Developing a language which compiles to BrainF*** */
22:44:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42157&oldid=42156 * SuperJedi224 * (+26) /* Developing a language which compiles to BrainF*** */
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22:46:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42158&oldid=42157 * SuperJedi224 * (+82) /* Developing a language which compiles to BrainF*** */
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23:25:43 <oerjan> @tell Gregor the logs' time is 3 minutes early hth
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23:38:40 <oerjan> <Sgeo> `olist 978 <-- nice title
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23:39:27 <oerjan> (i only recognize the reference because of sheldon's poetry comics)
23:40:14 <oerjan> but i shall presume all americans read it in school, or something
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23:47:36 <boily> hellørjan. sheldon?
23:51:06 <oerjan> http://www.sheldoncomics.com/
23:52:12 <boily> Emperor of Canada. I dig that.
23:52:39 <oerjan> darn i haven't checked it yet today
23:57:12 <boily> “Type, Duck”. I really hope it's not some horrible stealth pun.
00:03:18 <boily> in the first bunch of the comics around the beginning of the start...
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00:06:42 * oerjan swats boily after clicking through _far_ too many comics without finding it -----###
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00:11:21 <oerjan> boily: stop referring to nonexisting comics twh
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00:46:15 <int-e> oh the many kinds of duck typing
00:47:14 <int-e> if it quacks like a duck http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/011211.html and swims like a duck http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/011213.html and types like a duck http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/011228.html then it must be a duck
00:49:58 <oerjan> boily: my impression is that kellett probably isn't a programmer and wouldn't know what duck typing means.
00:51:56 <oerjan> he is however well educated in english, spanish, and cartoon art propaganda
00:54:10 <oerjan> also, searching for kellett brought up in the "people also search for" section: http://geekadelphia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/dr_strange.jpg
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01:01:17 <int-e> yeah, ok, not a programmer... http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/020124.html
01:02:24 <oerjan> it _is_ conceivable he knows html, i think he has a website or something.
01:02:40 <int-e> oh and http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20150313 is still grey ...
01:03:03 <oerjan> but if he were a programmer, he'd be able to get his bloody archives working properly.
01:03:08 <int-e> oerjan: I expect a programmer would start with IP, TCP or *maybe* HTTP, but not HTML
01:03:19 <oerjan> (trying to find old drive comics is painful.)
01:03:38 <int-e> maybe I'm expecting too much
01:04:08 <oerjan> (basically, having only the last year listed in the archives isn't very good when you've essentially been on a >1 year hiatus...)
01:04:45 <oerjan> when you add that the comic has _always_ been sporadically posted _and_ urls are date-based...
01:04:50 * boily is accruing his GG debt, one day at a time...
01:05:20 <int-e> oerjan: right, the sporadic updates kill it.
01:06:02 <oerjan> for girl genius, i know it's regular so i can skip a week back or forth
01:06:08 <int-e> it's actually quite possible to navigate GG by date because in at most 3 guesses you'll hit a comic
01:06:09 <oerjan> and there are chapter links
01:06:45 <oerjan> oh i don't guess, i find the right chapter and then skip in week increments
01:07:40 <int-e> Yes, discovering the chapter index was a huge boon
01:08:19 <int-e> but I tend to skip by months, and being too lazy to do the math *g*
01:08:56 <oerjan> now if yafgc could get its archives back. having an arc with _huge_ connections to past events going on at the same time as a big subset of the archives are not there is also painful.
01:10:25 <oerjan> i'm sort of half-lazy, i'll skip weeks within a month but then sometimes use prev/next to cross month boundaries
01:10:39 <shachaf> wonderful python feature someone pointed out:
01:11:07 <shachaf> can you guess what that does? print an error? modify x?
01:11:26 <oren> I just keep the last comic i've read bookmarkes
01:11:28 <elliott> TypeError: 'tuple' object does not support item assignment
01:11:34 <boily> shachaf: no, I can't guess.
01:12:29 <boily> shachaf: that is vile. that is very vile.
01:12:34 <oerjan> oren: nah i only do that for the darths & droids alternative comics
01:12:37 <elliott> what the fuck. what the fuck. what the fuck.
01:12:58 <FreeFull> I haven't found any such weirdness in Rust yet
01:13:14 <FreeFull> Other than surprising method dispatch sometimes with references
01:13:24 <oerjan> how do you even manage to mess it up like that
01:13:39 <shachaf> 18:13 <adrake> if you read the bytecode it's pretty clear why, it pulls the element of the tuple out, does an inplace add on it, and then tries to put it back in the tuple and dies
01:13:43 <shachaf> 18:13 <adrake> and if the inplace add mutates then rip
01:14:14 <boily> that is profundly disgusting.
01:14:36 <FreeFull> The equivalent in Rust would need &mut and *
01:14:42 <boily> fungot: please telle me you aren't as corrupted as that.
01:14:43 <fungot> boily: as soon as they finish that target they'll work on a windows box here and i don't know
01:14:54 <fungot> boily: modify the code... i think, but thanks
01:15:05 <FreeFull> let mut x = 1; *(9,&mut x) += 2; // This will work
01:15:15 <FreeFull> let mut x = 1; *(9,&mut x).1 += 2; // This will work
01:16:23 <oerjan> oren: the only comic i read in batches such that it would make sense to bookmark the last one is smbc, but that has no continuity...
01:17:08 <oren> is that monstrous or what
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01:19:40 <int-e> elliott: of course
01:19:43 <int-e> oren: I've seen worse
01:19:54 <int-e> (in IOCCC, of course)
01:20:08 <elliott> % { echo '#define A q'; echo 2A } | clang -E - | tail -n 1
01:20:13 <int-e> elliott: recall that a[b] = *(a+b) and + is commutative
01:21:08 <int-e> oh. needs cpp -traditional
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01:24:32 <lifthrasiir> if you allow -traditional, you will get something more strange:
01:24:32 <lifthrasiir> ~$ ( echo '#define A(x) "x"'; echo 'A(v)' ) | cpp -E -traditional - | grep '^[^#]'
01:30:11 <oren> Wait. Even if modern cpp does tokens, how the heck is "2A" a token!?!?
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01:35:21 <oren> Oh. the lexer thinks "2A" is an integer with a size affix?
01:36:23 <oren> Hmm. #define A a] 2[A
01:38:38 <int-e> oh my "A preprocessing number begins with a digit optionally preceded by a period (.) and may be followed by valid identifier characters and the character sequences e+, e-, E+, E-, p+, p-, P+, or P-." Okay.
01:39:36 <oren> 1thisisavalidnubmer
01:39:38 <int-e> 2wrongsdonotmake+1right
01:40:17 <oerjan> covering all the bases
01:41:07 <elliott> order-pp does 8foo for all its syntax things
01:42:57 <pikhq> int-e: That's... rather impressive.
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01:48:54 <int-e> oh, of course these pp-tokens can still be used for concatenation to produce identifiers.
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01:50:47 <oren> oh, i see because although 2A is a number, a ## 2A beigns with a letter and is therefore an identifier
02:00:09 <int-e> "If the result [of ##] is not a valid preprocessing token, the behavior is undefined."
02:00:16 <int-e> So good luck with that.
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02:21:09 <oren> struct wtf{struct wtf(*x)();}; extern struct wtf srsly; int main(){srsly.x().x().x().x();/*trololol*/}
02:23:49 <oren> struct wtf wut;while(wut.x)wut=wut.x();
02:26:51 <oren> hmm, can this be made a bit more screwy?
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02:50:23 <oren> what if I rename x to oO
02:51:15 <oren> srsly.Oo().Oo();
02:52:07 <oren> srsly.Oo().oO();
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03:43:10 <oerjan> bah i've drunk too much coke
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03:48:47 <oren> oerjan: drink water
03:49:35 * oerjan had a cup on the table which he'd forgot
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04:35:01 <shachaf> "It has sometimes been suggested that half pi should be called hi, and written τ. Explain why this idea was not discovered until recently."
04:35:50 <FreeFull> Is this from a world where pi = circumference / radius?
04:37:16 <shachaf> Oh, Jafet already asked me that in the past.
04:38:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: it could be a world where pi = diameter / circumference hth
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07:20:33 <oren> Why is past me an idiot who leaves things to the night before?
07:21:45 <oerjan> maybe he's shifted in time
07:29:48 <oren> Well now future me is going to have to survive another ~20 hours without sleep
07:31:00 <oren> or maybe pass out in a subway station or something
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07:34:26 <oren> I'd better work on the graphics assignment due in a week or so... naaaaahh
07:40:07 <int-e> can't you still get 3 or 4 hours of sleep out of this night?
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07:53:48 <oren> int-e that is also a good idea
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10:30:44 <ais523> hmm, I'm getting this bug that makes no sense
10:31:01 <ais523> it feels a bit like a compiler bug, but I can't reproduce it in a simple program
10:31:25 <ais523> gdb shows that I'm passing an argument to a function, and the argument that actually arrives at that function is different
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10:32:06 <ais523> this is across a shared library boundary across a pair of nested function pointers, which would explain why it hadn't been caught before, at least
10:34:58 <Taneb> ais523, are you willing/able to share the source of the offending program?
10:35:12 <ais523> Taneb: yes but it's pretty large
10:35:20 <ais523> given that the shared library in question is libnethack
10:35:50 <ais523> I seem to remember something like this having happened befoer
10:35:53 <ais523> anyway, I'm working on a testbench
10:36:04 <ais523> and wanted to get it working before I pushed the first version
10:36:08 <ais523> I guess I could push an interim version
10:40:22 <ais523> Taneb: git clone -b testbench http://nethack4.org/media/nethack4.git
10:41:18 <ais523> build and install according to the normal build instructions, then run testbench/src/testmain.c/testmain.bin from the build directory
10:48:06 <b_jonas> ais523: memory corruption? is this optimized? what system and compiler?
10:48:28 <ais523> b_jonas: -Og, gcc (Ubuntu 4.9.1-16ubuntu6) 4.9.1
10:49:34 <ais523> if I change "callback" to "msg_getlin_callback" (i.e. hardcoding its value), everything works fine; that may well be because it's a private function, though
10:49:42 <ais523> thus forcing aimake to change the link to static to be able to get at it
10:49:49 <ais523> on line 747 of testgame.c
10:50:29 <ais523> (the problem is that the pointer "lin" given as an argument to the callback is a different pointer from the pointer that the callback receives in its first argument, but only the second time test_getlin is called)
10:50:34 <b_jonas> ais523: how reproducible is this?
10:50:50 <b_jonas> ais523: and have you tried to run with valgrind and/or gcc's undefined behaviour catcher traps?
10:52:43 <ais523> b_jonas: 100% reproducible; valgrind reports reading uninitialized data inside msg_getlin_callback (blaming a stack allocation on messages.c:42, which only allocates one variable and it's initialized); I haven't tried with ubsan
10:53:18 <b_jonas> luckily I don't really have much experience hunting down these kinds of bugs
10:55:06 <ais523> this one's just a flat out case of the code making no sense
10:55:14 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what ltrace will see at the API boundary
10:55:37 <b_jonas> are you using a recent enough gdb?
10:56:01 <b_jonas> if not, I definitely recommend you to upgrade it
11:02:23 <ais523> hmm, ltrace can't see the calls in question at all (presumably it can't see calls made via function pointers), but it is reporting double or even triple frees that valgrind didn't see
11:06:02 <b_jonas> ais523: is it possible that you have declared the function differently in different source files, or cast it to the wrong type of function pointer?
11:07:19 <ais523> void (*callback)(const char *lin, void *arg) ... void msg_getlin_callback(const char *str, void *msg_to_fill)
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11:58:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42159 * SuperJedi224 * (+1136) Created page with "'''ReThue''' is a superset of the [[Thue]] language proposed by [[User:SuperJedi224]]. It adds javascript-style Regular Expression constructs, and slightly improves the input ..."
12:00:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42160&oldid=42159 * SuperJedi224 * (+22)
12:03:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42161&oldid=42160 * SuperJedi224 * (+30)
12:03:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42162&oldid=42161 * SuperJedi224 * (-10)
12:03:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42163&oldid=42162 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
12:04:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42164&oldid=42163 * SuperJedi224 * (+46)
12:05:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42165&oldid=42164 * SuperJedi224 * (+8)
12:06:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42166&oldid=42153 * SuperJedi224 * (+13) /* R */
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14:27:51 <oren> It feels like I don't need C++ I just need a larger C library
14:30:10 <oren> Specifically, one with better functions for strings and dynamic arrays
14:30:35 <elliott> it's very hard to write useful type-generic libraries in C.
14:30:56 <oren> elliott: is it?
14:31:08 <elliott> C++ templates are a big win for that purpose
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14:31:34 <elliott> b/c without preprocessor hackery, the best you can do is make everything (void *), sacrificing type safety just like Java did when you had to cast everything to and from Object to put it into containers, and also requiring boxing
14:31:49 <elliott> (i.e., your structure cannot store the data inline, it must be indirect through a pointer, likely incurring a heap allocation)
14:32:04 <elliott> preprocessor hackery works to define type-generic structures, but it's incredibly ugly and annoying to use
14:32:40 <oren> shoudln't that be char* not void*?
14:33:00 <elliott> I don't know what makes you say that but I'm pretty sure the answer is no
14:33:07 <oren> (unless you use gcc extension allowing pointer arith on void*)
14:33:44 <oren> I mean,consider qsort and bsearch
14:34:12 <elliott> you can just cast to char * if you want
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14:37:00 <oren> I think you can still store the data inline
14:37:21 <oren> you simply allocate a char[] of the appropriate size
14:37:55 <elliott> you also need to think about things like internal pointers in data structures
14:38:18 <elliott> it's hard. anyway it's horribly unpleasant in manual in C to do the thing you really want, and you don't get type-safety out of it
14:38:36 <elliott> you're likely to be much happier at least flicking your compiler's C++ switch on and just using templates and nothing else
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14:40:12 <oren> elliott: what if we simply pass an initializer and destructor to the make_array() function?
14:40:44 <oren> (in the same way that we pass a comparator to qsort)
14:40:46 <elliott> yes, what if we just manually run C++ -> C compilers in our head and abandon readability or safety
14:40:53 <elliott> imo this will be fun and not at all pointlessly torturous for us
14:42:00 <elliott> I mean really what you do in C is just hand-code all your structures or deal with the excessive heap allocation and indirection and lack of type safety
14:42:08 <elliott> because getting what you really want is too hellish
14:42:18 <elliott> and this is why writing C is tedious
14:43:25 <elliott> glib is a pretty good example of the "just deal with the indirection and lack of type safety of boxing everything"
14:43:30 <elliott> and I mean it works but it's not very fun
14:43:45 <elliott> and if you don't care about laying things out well in memory or the costs of heap allocation then why on earth are you writing in C
14:46:49 <fizzie> glib has a bit of "store data inline" stuff, IIRC. Based on preprocessor stuffery.
14:46:53 <Jafet> Because your hardware vendor has only a port of gcc 2.95
14:46:54 <fizzie> Like the GArray thing.
14:47:08 <elliott> you can do templating with the preprocessor
14:47:12 <oren> elliott: generally? because C library interfaces tend to be easier to understand than C++ interfaces
14:47:15 <elliott> and it's the worst thing to maintain in the universe
14:47:30 <elliott> oren: is something like std::vector really hard to understand
14:47:37 <elliott> I mean sure boost or whtaever is over the top but
14:48:35 <Jafet> Is there anything in C++ that isn't hard to understand
14:48:37 <fizzie> You provide an element size in g_array_new, and the type name to a 'g_array_index' macro, and things are generally ugly. E.g. you can't g_array_append_val(array, 42) to an array of ints because it would try to do &42 in there.
14:48:40 <oren> elliott: when I use C++ it is only for the sake of string, vector, and sometimes for custom streams.
14:49:03 <Jafet> So apparently the sort implementation in libstdc++ doesn't use swap at all, it uses moves instead
14:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/changetip/comments/2zgr59/when_you_tip_the_wrong_amount_happened_to_me_at/cpisjsh ahahahahahahaha
14:49:06 <ais523> Jafet: I'm not sure, trying to think of something atm
14:49:25 <oren> Why we can't have a fsopen() function converting a C string to a FILE* I don't know...
14:49:31 <Jafet> This means that you can write swap specializations and they won't get used, you need a move constructor instead or you will get terrible performance
14:49:48 <elliott> I think if you try to write an API as convenient as std::vector that has the same memory/performance properties you want then you'll end up with a huge mass of preprocessor trickery
14:50:24 <Jafet> So in other words, you can't sort lists of containers fast and have the container code be C++03 compatible
14:51:37 <oren> In general C++ code causes a lot of unnecessary copies (mostly because of memory ownership issues).
14:52:21 <elliott> being worse at writing generic code than C isn't one of them
14:54:19 <oren> elliott: to be fair these issues are with the standard C++ library not the language C++ itself
14:54:26 <Jafet> Is there any programming system that doesn't cause a lot of unnecessary copies
14:55:31 <oren> Jafet: you can only choose the extent of the problem...
14:57:51 <Gregor> I was watching and eating popcorn.
14:57:54 <Gregor> You can't stop the entertainment now.
14:59:01 <Jafet> A variant of thue where each rule may only permute existing symbols
14:59:36 <elliott> Gregor: sorry, i got enlightened and realised that c is the best language ever
15:00:25 <ais523> C++ is full of workarounds to the rest of C++, it's become a self-sustaining loop at this point
15:00:40 <oren> C is an ok language ruined for many purposes by its string type.
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15:01:19 <oren> The poorly chosen string type was then optimized for at the hardware level.
15:01:24 <elliott> C doesn't really have a string type.
15:01:35 <elliott> it just has a type that is named char for bad reasons
15:01:37 <oren> elliott: EXACTLY
15:01:52 <Jafet> WG21 apparently didn't consider it self-sustaining enough because they threw in a concurrent programming model
15:03:48 <int-e> they added threads, so they could no longer evade the issue without looking like lunatics
15:04:50 <oren> someone (with better taste than me) should write a modern replacement C stdlib, with blackjack! And whores!^H^H^H^H^H.
15:07:18 <oren> int-e: they already looked like lunatics though. you stare into an abyss of C++ templates....
15:12:33 <oren> ... abyss<you>.staring();
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15:16:33 <Jafet> template <class T> struct abyss { using stare = abyss <T>; };
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18:13:32 <Melvar> In case anyone cares, I created a type provider that retrieves the version of idris currently in use, because someone in #idris suggested it after someone else asked what version the bot was on.
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18:22:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42167&oldid=42113 * Ypnypn * (+1792) /* Constants */
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18:35:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42168&oldid=42167 * Ypnypn * (+1252) /* Constants */
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20:28:15 <oren> Holy shit! facebook tells people your location!
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20:30:39 <oren> which means if you happen to be seeing your mistress, and you message your wife... big trouble
20:33:49 <int-e> just wait until Google Now tells you that you have an appointment with a divorce lawyer, based on the exact same information.
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20:34:43 <int-e> http://qdb.us/301866 is cute
20:35:16 <oren> "Siri, what are my appointments today" "Divorce lawyer at 5, and doctor at 1, you stepped in poison ivy 30 seconds ago."
20:40:00 <oren> Hmm, I was using screen through UofT's computers, but for some reason it doesn't forward utf-8 properly
20:41:57 <oren> which is important for a channel that uses as many Æあα as this one.
20:42:48 <int-e> `unicode MULTIOCULAR
20:42:50 <HackEgo> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
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21:05:13 <b_jonas> fungot, don't make the others jelous of you
21:05:13 <fungot> b_jonas: if you are going for fast load time, you can omit it. :) actually, i think
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21:32:07 <zzo38> I have SSH account, but to access some programs, I have to first SSH to one server and then from there, SSH to the server that is physically on top of that one, in order to access GCC and so on
21:41:16 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
21:43:21 <zzo38> I think now I thought of the way to make in a 6502 code and using tables to make a signed 16-bit number output as a decimal format.
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23:46:17 <HackEgo> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
23:50:16 <int-e> Do we have an "official", oerjan-approved way of abbreviating "that didn't help"?
23:50:57 <int-e> I guess it's "tdnh".
23:51:59 <int-e> `` ls -la wisdom/tdnh
23:52:01 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 19 Jan 6 17:40 wisdom/tdnh
23:55:20 <int-e> Oh well, commit date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 00:03:21 +0000
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00:05:26 <zzo38> Is there any EFnet IRC server for Telus?
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01:56:20 <HackEgo> izabera: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:57:11 <izabera> well i'm assuming you're human since you used a different bot <.<
01:57:28 <oerjan> we think elliott is human
01:57:31 <fungot> ProofTechnique: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/ scheme/ fnord)
01:57:42 <oerjan> we haven't seen conclusive proof, though
01:58:33 <izabera> prove you're human: what is 6 times 9 ?
01:58:42 <fungot> ProofTechnique: http://www.demi.fi/ fnord and the reverse of last time i checked minion is perpetually disgruntled." fnord erasmus ( paraphrased)
01:58:49 <oerjan> hey i can be human even if i know that!
01:58:50 <elliott> beep. boop. reference recognised. beep. boop.
01:59:14 <lambdabot> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=6+times+9
01:59:14 <lambdabot> Title: Urban Dictionary: 6 times 9
01:59:16 <izabera> guawguaw | show gratis (solo hooy) --> http://s422803032.mialojamiento.es/
01:59:38 <elliott> izabera: we do sometimes have bots that use each other, though
01:59:53 <izabera> i thought i was the only one who wrote such bots ._.
01:59:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
01:59:56 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*guawguaw@84.78.23.*.
01:59:57 -!- elliott has kicked guawguaw guawguaw.
02:00:00 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
02:00:10 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
02:00:15 <oerjan> and i was just wondering whether to `relcome guawguaw
02:00:17 <elliott> this is a good channel for ridiculous bot things >_>
02:02:04 <fizzie> The headline features -- you know, the ones I advertise to prospective licensees -- are the (n-gram) babbling, the brainfuck interpreter and the Underload interpreter.
02:02:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:02:55 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@84.78.*.
02:02:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:03:08 <fizzie> Which reminds me, I really should slap a suitable permissive license on fungot. I thought I did that.
02:03:08 <fungot> fizzie: but nothing from ihope? i'm inside your mom!!! so... but given that this is a good
02:03:10 <oerjan> yes, i just noticed it was reusing that ip range
02:04:17 <elliott> fungot is more vulgar than usual today...
02:04:17 <fungot> elliott: either way it'd be c++ not c. pressy too on the final
02:05:11 <oerjan> elliott: it was also the same bot that used the 213.143.* range (from two different subnets) previously
02:05:22 <elliott> I hope 84.78 isn't too big
02:05:34 <elliott> I mean it could just be using a botnet or something but
02:05:59 <oerjan> orange in spain, judging from the email listed
02:06:03 <fizzie> 84.78.0.0-84.79.255.255, YACOMNET, "Ya.com Internet Factory".
02:06:27 <ProofTechnique> ^ul (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
02:06:27 <fungot> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ...too much output!
02:06:35 <ProofTechnique> ^ul (::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
02:06:49 <ProofTechnique> ^ul (:::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
02:07:03 <elliott> izabera: I want to say the channel is usually less of a mess than this but it isn't really
02:07:03 <oerjan> don't we have a factorial that uses decimals
02:07:20 <oerjan> what mess, we're even on topic
02:07:28 <shachaf> fizzie: How much for a fungot license?
02:07:29 <fungot> shachaf: " you don't need to save the values of any of this even now
02:08:43 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)((!^~)())((:(~:(,)*S~^!^)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
02:08:44 <fungot> 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597, ...out of time!
02:09:01 <fizzie> shachaf: That would depend on what kind of terms you'd like on it.
02:09:22 <fungot> ha. ha. ha ha. ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...too much output!
02:09:32 <fizzie> oerjan: We also had that.
02:09:34 <fungot> ((ha)(ha))(~:^:(. )*S( )~**a~^!a*~:^):^
02:09:48 <shachaf> fizzie: I'd like to use it in the design, construction, operation and maintenance of a nuclear facility.
02:10:20 <fizzie> shachaf: I probably wouldn't want to be on the same continent, then.
02:10:55 <shachaf> OK, so it's fine in North America?
02:11:36 <fizzie> I feel like I should be asking for legal advice before answering.
02:12:14 <zzo38> What other programming language you write IRC bots with? Is it QBASIC?
02:12:16 <oerjan> elliott: btw based on the spam bot's behavior (it didn't message me) i suspect it only messages people who joined after it, or something
02:12:21 <shachaf> I can't get Java, but at least I can get fungot.
02:12:21 <fungot> shachaf: too difficult. :-p help would be appreciated.) obfuscated c contest with that
02:12:34 <elliott> oerjan: probably not since it messaged me
02:12:37 <elliott> I was just too lazy to ban it :(
02:12:44 <shachaf> I'd like to get legal advice but I'm not sure how to find a lawyer.
02:12:57 <elliott> I was hoping nobody would notice it
02:13:05 <fizzie> "I have this friend who wants to use my Befunge chatbot in their nuclear facility..." is a great email opening to a lawyer, probably.
02:13:18 <shachaf> (The last sentence is actually serious.)
02:13:36 <fizzie> I think we have an intranet page on how to find a lawyer, but it's probably mostly about business purposes.
02:14:11 <shachaf> You have so many great intranet pages.
02:17:10 <oren> to find a lawyer, go to the intersection of the two biggest streets in a large city, and get hit by a car.
02:19:23 <elliott> there are pros and cons to both options
02:19:46 <shachaf> I'd like someone who knows about employment law.
02:19:55 <shachaf> Oh well. I'll figure it out.
02:20:06 <fizzie> Maybe there's a Yelp for lawyers?
02:20:31 <shachaf> There's a website called upcounsel.com. It doesn't look like a joke.
02:20:34 <fizzie> (Although from what I've understood by reading a blog now and then, lawyer selection still happens a lot via plain old human networking.)
02:20:44 <shachaf> "Can you send me a message on Upcounsel?"
02:20:46 <oren> find the CEO of a company whose workers are unionized, and ask for a recommendation
02:20:58 <shachaf> OK, maybe I should say that it doesn't look like it's *just* a joke.
02:23:10 <fizzie> I've had employment-related advice from "Academic Engineers and Architects in Finland TEK", "a professional and labour market organisation" -- mostly because advice is free for members. But that's a highly situational tip.
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03:01:58 <HackEgo> Valentina: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
03:03:23 <oerjan> Valentina: Además, si no te importa, nos gustaría saber cómo los usuarios canaima siguen encontrando este canal.
03:04:07 <oerjan> (Yo no hablo español bien, estoy utilizando Google Translate)
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03:16:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: benvenuto: not found
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03:18:50 <Sgeo> I may have just bought overly-expensive tweezers
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03:26:04 <zzo38> Do you have any FOAF RDF?
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03:28:50 <elliott> izabera: it's a unix system!
03:28:52 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:28:52 <oerjan> izabera: what language is benvenuto
03:28:56 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bf \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ CoInS \ complain \ complaints \ ctof \ dandd
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03:29:12 <elliott> so... you write a shell script. >.>
03:29:18 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.es"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.es"; }
03:29:46 <oerjan> it should go in welcome.it, clearly
03:30:06 <elliott> right. but then you'd have to copy and sed the perl script since I guess they're all just manually modified copies
03:30:38 <oerjan> `run cp bin/{bienvenido,benvenuto}; sed -i 's/es/it/' bin/bienvenuto
03:30:44 <HackEgo> sed: can't read bin/bienvenuto: No such file or directory
03:31:04 <oerjan> `run cp bin/{bienvenido,benvenuto}; sed -i 's/es/it/' bin/benvenuto
03:31:06 <shachaf> oerjan: 20:32 <edwardk> one of these days i'll write a shachaf bot that takes random text and puts hth on the end and i,i at the start at random intervals throughout
03:31:19 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.it"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.es"; }
03:31:30 <oerjan> `run cp bin/{bienvenido,benvenuto}; sed -i 's/es/it/g' bin/benvenuto
03:31:36 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.it"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.it"; }
03:31:57 <HackEgo> :-( \ 113500 \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ script.py \ share \ src \ test \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:32:17 <oerjan> izabera: now you put the actual translation in wisdom/welcome.it
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03:33:32 <izabera> ok so it's not really a shell
03:34:49 <oerjan> <elliott> izabera: it's a unix system! <-- are you trying to get em to release the raptors tdnh
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03:35:34 <elliott> izabera: it uses full bash actually
03:35:51 <elliott> `run echo 'int main() { return 123; }' | gcc -x c - && ./a.out; echo $?
03:36:04 <oerjan> edwardk: i,i twh please do it hth
03:36:13 <elliott> yeah it can take a little while to start up sometimes
03:36:15 <zzo38> I don't quite know all of the programs on there
03:36:18 <elliott> `run echo 'int main() { return 123; }' | gcc -x c - && ./a.out; echo $?
03:36:22 <zzo38> I think they might have added SQLite too
03:36:44 <izabera> `run echo 'int main() { return 42; }' | gcc -x c - && ./a.out; echo $?
03:37:04 <izabera> you can use precompiled headers
03:37:13 <elliott> the warmup is just the VM startup I think
03:37:24 <elliott> so it's essentially booting an entire kernel on every command.
03:37:46 <edwardk> so i'd be waiting a while if i tried to get it to install ghc ;)
03:37:56 <zzo38> Maybe they should fix it? Maybe there is the way to avoid a bit somewhat
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03:38:07 <izabera> evalbot runs in qemu with a saved state
03:38:38 <oerjan> edwardk: it used to have ghc but Gregor didn't bother to install it again when he moved it between servers :(
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03:38:58 <elliott> hackego has persistent state and so on which is nice
03:39:30 <oerjan> edwardk: also since you've been mentioning around something i've also thought of, someone should totally make rank-n constraints work hth
03:39:44 <zzo38> It does even have SQLite version 3.7.13
03:40:03 <zzo38> (With no extensions, as far as I know)
03:40:09 <oerjan> (class (Category a, forall b. Applicative (a b)) => Arrow a where ...)
03:40:51 <elliott> that's more comparable to that evalbot I guess
03:40:56 <elliott> (no persistent state etc.)
03:40:57 <oerjan> edwardk: also while i'm stalking, hope you're feeling better
03:41:28 <elliott> actually I wonder why it's so much faster
03:41:31 <elliott> I forget how EgoBot sandboxes !sh...
03:41:42 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1243611
03:41:42 <izabera> i made a bot that lets you use the ed editor
03:41:45 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1924701
03:41:48 <edwardk> a better way to think about Arrow to me is class (Strong p, Category p) => Arrow p -- using profunctors
03:41:59 <elliott> I've used ed to edit files for real a few times!
03:42:03 <elliott> mostly just so I could say I did it though
03:42:17 <edwardk> elliott: i only edited them for you as a courtesy ;)
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03:42:40 <elliott> yeah, thanks for implementing all those lens changes I telepathically communicated to you over the years...
03:44:08 <elliott> izabera: ...what does the bot actually edit, though?
03:45:33 <izabera> gimme a min, i'll bring it here
03:47:45 * izabera is building dependencies and adding the ingredients
03:47:48 <zzo38> You can edit whatever files are stored in its filesystem
03:48:35 <zzo38> HackEgo can edit any file under its directory, but not the others
03:48:41 <zzo38> And using hg I think?
03:48:54 <zzo38> Therefore you can't use any file that is not compatible with hg
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03:51:25 <elliott> of course I immediately forget all the ed I once knew :(
03:51:36 <elliott> I've probably used TECO more
03:51:53 <shachaf> Is there a regular expression library that supports intersections and complements?
03:52:28 <izabera> ok i think i got it and the answer is no
03:52:32 <shachaf> text matches (P&Q) if it matches P and it matches Q
03:53:21 <izabera> will work if it's no anchored
03:54:20 <oren> ed is a good editor for over a crap connection
03:55:09 <elliott> well, people often do not form very close bonds over IRC
03:55:21 <elliott> thank you. I'm here all week
03:56:15 <izabera> yeah it won't work if either P or Q use ^ or $
03:56:51 <elliott> the point is ([abc]&[bcd]) would be the same as [bc], I think
03:56:57 <elliott> as in, both P and Q run over the same string
03:57:04 <elliott> rather than P coming after Q or vice versa
03:57:39 <elliott> (so, the set of strings that match (P&Q) is the intersection of the set of strings that match P and the set of strings that match Q)
03:58:20 <elliott> I wonder if that operation is computable. as in whether there is a function over regexps that produces a new regexp with that property
03:58:20 <shachaf> And (!P) matches a string when P doesn't match it.
03:58:20 <oren> I thing perl regexes have something like that
03:58:21 <elliott> I guess probably yes, regular languages have nice properties
03:58:27 <shachaf> But it's double-exponential or something.
03:58:35 <elliott> (?!P) does that in some regexp engines I think?
03:58:48 <shachaf> Lookahead/lookbehind is close but not quite the same thing.
03:58:50 <oren> using those "lookaround assertions"
03:58:51 <izabera> (?!P) is not preceded by P
03:59:02 <shachaf> E.g. it'll look even outside the parentheses.
03:59:22 <elliott> regexps are too complicated and it's too 4 am for them :(
03:59:53 <shachaf> But regular languages support intersection and complement, so it's silly that regular expressions don't.
04:00:14 <shachaf> I think you can implement them more efficiently in practice for the cases that people would care about.
04:02:02 <elliott> izabera: does edirc have a bug bounty if I manage to break out of ed? :p
04:02:22 <izabera> well, you'd win my gratitude
04:02:51 <elliott> probably too lazy to actually try fuzzing it locally
04:03:52 <izabera> it's been a while and i don't really remember all of this
04:04:15 <elliott> my leet hacker skills are not enough
04:05:24 <elliott> do I get points for trying?
04:05:47 <elliott> that's got to be worth at least a 100th of a gratitude!
04:05:56 <elliott> a gratiton. the fundamental gratitude particle
04:07:03 <elliott> i need to not be sleep deprived when new people join ideally
04:07:21 <izabera> ah yes now it sleeps 2 secs after printing 3 lines
04:09:43 <izabera> streetlight == s/ree/ligh/
04:10:29 <izabera> ok so sleepy time for me :P
04:10:40 <izabera> and sorry for the bot spam
04:10:54 <edirc> Shell access restricted
04:11:18 <izabera> you can export the file you're editing
04:11:25 <edirc> http://arin.ga/MaxYHB/raw
04:14:17 <oerjan> <elliott> I wonder if that operation is computable. <-- it's trivial when the "regexp" is in DFA form, the hard but still well-known part is converting back and forth
04:16:30 <edirc> source https://github.com/izabera/edirc
04:17:07 <shachaf> Intersection NFAs isn't completely obvious, I think.
04:17:25 <shachaf> The annoying thing is that you need a multiplicative number of states, not just additive like for union.
04:17:50 <shachaf> Well, I guess that's the only nonobvious part.
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04:18:25 <oerjan> shachaf: thus why i said DFAs. by the way that also applies to !P
04:18:52 <shachaf> I think it was also nonobvious for DFAs, but I guess it depends on what you consider obvious.
04:19:22 <shachaf> And sure it applies to !P, since A&B = !((!A)|(!B))
04:19:27 <oerjan> "running two DFAs in parallel, construct an equivalent one by pairing states"
04:19:36 <oerjan> that's why i consider obvious.
04:20:22 <coppro> yeah the intersection construction is pretty trivial
04:20:23 <oerjan> basically you get any boolean combination that way
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08:31:17 <Sgeo> If <weird proprietary memory card>'s plastic top is damaged, could that mean it contacted electronics and damaged something?
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08:50:21 <oerjan> wait, it's _not_ a -> f a -> a ?
08:51:05 <oerjan> dammit why does lambdabot have a function that i cannot hoogle
08:56:38 <oerjan> if it does. i thought i saw it mentioned but i cannot remember the name.
08:56:56 <lambdabot> ‘asTypeOf’ (imported from Prelude), ‘asTypeIn’ (line 161)
08:57:07 <lambdabot> ‘asTypeOf’ (imported from Prelude), ‘asTypeIn’ (line 161)
08:57:18 <oerjan> oh well seems there isn't another
09:00:36 <oerjan> argh it's not in the default lambdabot distribution
09:01:08 <oerjan> int-e: where can i see the default L.hs lambdabot actually _uses_?
09:01:26 <lambdabot> The operator ‘L.asTypeIn’ [infixl 0] of a section
09:01:26 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
09:01:43 <oerjan> the repository one only has 79 lines
09:07:47 * oerjan called it asTypeInside in his SO answer, anyway.
09:08:22 <oerjan> might have been more technically correct
09:08:57 <oerjan> although asType* is probably only used by people who want to avoid extensions anyway.
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09:41:17 <oerjan> > asAppliedTo succ 1 2
09:41:41 <Taneb> > map (succ `asAppliedTo 'a') []
09:41:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input ‘'’
09:41:46 <Taneb> > map (succ `asAppliedTo` 'a') []
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10:03:14 <oerjan> and then it turned out my answer was nonsense, anyway
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11:30:11 <int-e> oerjan: the L.hs file is not visible anywhere. I keep a more-or-less up-to-date copy of the Pristine.hs file in the 'freenode' branch on github.
11:33:13 <int-e> oerjan: sorry, missed the "default" word there
11:36:56 <oerjan> ^rreree APOLOGY ACCEPTED
11:36:56 <fungot> AAPAPOPOLOLOLOGOGYGY Y A ACACCCCECEPEPTPTETEDEDD
11:37:15 <fungot> ssosorororororirititytyy
11:37:54 <fungot> iininfnfifinininititytyy
11:40:11 <fungot> sosrosorororirotirytiyty
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11:41:17 <int-e> I'm afraid, how did this happen: http://qdb.us/310139
11:41:39 <oerjan> int-e: that last Is is basically the same as Data.Typeable.:~:
11:44:55 <int-e> That whole collection of code is quite random.
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11:47:27 <oerjan> ok it's not one of the ones stolen from the quotedb
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11:59:53 <izabera> `run awk '{if(NR==FNR){a[NR]=$0;if(l<length)l=length}else{b[FNR]=$0;if(r<length)r=length}}END{i=1;while(a[i]||b[i])printf "%-*s\t%-*s\n",l,a[i],r,b[i++]}' cat canary
12:02:37 <izabera> it's a new way to print Meow~~ chirp
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12:30:46 <oerjan> clearly izabera is a gnork. also i should go to bed. or maybe eat first...
12:31:27 <oerjan> wait, make that gneerk
12:32:58 <int-e> oerjan: so you're shifting, what, 2 hours a day now?
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12:36:58 <oerjan> well i'm in that awkward phase where i'm shifting into having no reasonably awake overlap with my favorite restaurant's opening hours. so i generally try to do a jump then to end that quickly.
12:37:50 <oerjan> also, i have my yearly dentist checkup next week, would be nice not to miss it.
12:38:16 <oerjan> so basically today seems to be stay-awake-extra-long day
12:39:07 <oerjan> also i think i said something about eating ->
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12:42:34 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLCOOKIEPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
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13:00:39 <Decim> How 'bout I give you the 'Ole razzle dazzle
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13:09:03 <boily> Decim: what's a razzle dazzle?
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13:20:38 <elliott> izabera: ...what is that awk snippet doing?
13:20:55 <elliott> I was thinking you were somehow calculating Meow~~ from chirp
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13:24:27 <elliott> :t Data.Proxy.asProxyTypeOf
13:24:36 <elliott> (why isn't that imported...?)
13:24:48 <oerjan> elliott: useless, should have been proxy a
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13:25:05 <elliott> I guess lambdabot is using an old version of tagged
13:25:10 <oerjan> not in Data.Proxy either
13:25:52 <elliott> so the problem is that the new Data.Proxy is worse than the one in the package :(
13:26:07 <elliott> edwardk: can you get base:Data.Proxy.asProxyTypeOf's "Proxy" lowercased? :p
13:26:15 <elliott> or does that require three committee meetings and a popular vote
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13:29:20 <int-e> > let a :: a -> p a -> a in a () undefined
13:29:22 <lambdabot> The type signature for ‘a’ lacks an accompanying binding
13:29:32 <elliott> izabera: also, anyone who ends up in this place is definitely a nerd, sorry :(
13:29:32 <int-e> > let a :: a -> p a -> a; a = const in a () undefined
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13:31:15 <boily> int-e: eh? what is p in that type signature?
13:31:40 <boily> izabera: izabhellora. don't worry. understand fungot and everything will be fine.
13:31:40 <fungot> boily: afaik chicken only generates c code. not as nice
13:32:13 <Jafet> It seems that fungot understands boily, too.
13:32:14 <fungot> Jafet: this isn't lisp already metalisp?
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13:38:19 <int-e> boily: I supposed it ends up being any p :: * -> *
13:39:24 <boily> int-e: so it's possible to have a “p a” somewhere without any constraints? I didn't know that.
13:41:20 <elliott> just like you can have foo :: a -> b with no constraints on a
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17:13:47 <tswett> ^rreree I think I'm just going to put ^rreree before everything I say.
17:13:47 <fungot> II I t ththihininknk k I I'I'm'm m j jujusustst t g gogoioiningng g t toto o p puputut t ^ ^r^rrrrerererereeee e b bebefefofororere e e evevevereryrytyththihiningng g I I I s sasayay.y..
17:14:08 <tswett> ^rreree This will greatly enhance the experience of all involved.
17:14:08 <fungot> TThThihisis s w wiwilillll l g grgrereaeatatltlyly y e enenhnhahanancncece e t ththehe e e exexpxpepereririeienencncece e o ofof f a alallll l i ininvnvovololvlveveded.d..
17:21:05 <int-e> ^rerere At least ^rreree is more readable than ^rerere.
17:21:05 <fungot> AtA tAl tel aelsaetsa ts^ tr^ rr^errrerereeer eei esi sim som romero err eer aerdaeadabadlbaelb elt eht ahtnah na^ nr^ er^rererererere.er.e.
17:22:40 <b_jonas> [ rerere=: 3 :'(y,'' ''"0 y){~0,+/\({~?~@#)1 1 _1#~<:#y'
17:22:50 <b_jonas> [ rerere 'This will greatly enhance the experience of all involved.
17:22:51 <j-bot> b_jonas: |open quote
17:22:51 <j-bot> b_jonas: | rerere 'This will greatly enhance the experience of all involved.
17:22:53 <b_jonas> [ rerere 'This will greatly enhance the experience of all involved.'
17:22:54 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: rerere
17:22:54 <j-bot> b_jonas: | rerere'This will greatly enhance the experience of all involved.'
17:23:08 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: rerere
17:23:12 <b_jonas> [ rerere=: 3 :'(y,'' ''"0 y){~0,+/\({~?~@#)1 1 _1#~<:#y'
17:23:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: rerere
17:23:28 <izabera> the outer ' ' mess with the inner ones
17:23:31 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: foo
17:23:40 <izabera> oh it's just the bot that's broken
17:24:02 <izabera> so uhm is this channel only full of bots or what
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17:24:09 <b_jonas> ] rerere=: 3 :'(y,'' ''"0 y){~0,+/\({~?~@#)1 1 _1#~<:#y'
17:24:12 <fungot> int-e: ( note that i said " abstract character" as a yes :) thats why i was wondering
17:24:20 <b_jonas> ] rerere 'This will greatly enhance the experience of all involved.'
17:24:20 <evalj> b_jonas: ThThisihis sihis w w sisihThThisis wiw s wiliwilillll greatly enhahance ththe experepxperieirieieieienence of fof f alall i i llall l i invovnvovnvovnvololved.d.d.ded. .
17:24:32 <b_jonas> ] rerere 'fungot, is this channel only full of bots or what?'
17:24:33 <fungot> b_jonas: there are a few euros attached to it
17:24:33 <evalj> b_jonas: f funufungot, i i is thisisis chchc c c chchannenelelel o o onlylylno onononly f fufufufufufulull o of f b botstotststs ororor w whwhat?t?
17:24:50 <b_jonas> `8-ball is this channel only full of bots or what?
17:24:53 <int-e> metasepia is absent without leave
17:25:13 <int-e> zemhill_: how did you work again?
17:26:09 <elliott> izabera: it's like 7-10% bot iirc
17:26:27 <elliott> usually people are slightly less spammy with them though :p
17:26:29 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
17:26:34 <b_jonas> elliott: what? really? if that was true, we needed more bots
17:26:38 <b_jonas> but I think we already have more
17:26:51 <zemhill_> int-e: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
17:26:51 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:27:03 <elliott> thutubot is only incredibly rarely around so yeah
17:27:05 <zemhill_> int-e: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
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17:27:12 <int-e> !zjoust overflow [+]
17:27:13 <zemhill_> int-e.overflow: points -25.40, score 3.66, rank 47/47
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17:27:33 <int-e> !bfjoust overflow [+]
17:27:42 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_overflow: 9.4
17:27:50 <elliott> sometimes people talk here!!
17:27:53 <zemhill_> b_jonas.nooverflow: points -26.21, score 3.50, rank 47/47
17:28:01 <int-e> fungot: tell us about people
17:28:11 <int-e> fungot: I knew that
17:28:12 <fungot> int-e: just for the record, it was a clever magician, so he didn't try to open a new structure in some module
17:28:30 <fungot> int-e: i had forgot there was a problem sending the command to push constant values into the list right?). having to learn a programming language in its own command, for efficiency
17:28:41 <b_jonas> fungot, are you a speaking parrot?
17:28:41 <fungot> b_jonas: " fsn only worked on what the program does
17:29:00 <elliott> cut down on the botspam :p
17:29:25 <b_jonas> [ rerere 'cut down on the botspam :p'
17:29:25 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: rerere
17:29:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: | rerere'cut down on the botspam :p'
17:29:29 <b_jonas> ] rerere 'cut down on the botspam :p'
17:29:29 <evalj> b_jonas: c c cut d d dodown o n ono o onon t t n the e e e bototstspstotststspam :p p
17:29:50 <int-e> So myndzi is broken, sigh.
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17:30:23 <elliott> you're making me want to +m >_>
17:31:39 <b_jonas> wait till we start asking evalj for ascii-art mandelbrot fractal and the like
17:33:32 <int-e> Why does clog have a +q?
17:34:54 <nc_jonas> elliot: besides, that wouldn't work too well on a -n channel
17:39:05 <int-e> Okay, mystery solved. http://sprunge.us/BAZJ (this was 2011-05-13 but I suspect elliott's self assessment has not changed significantly in the meantime :-P)
17:39:39 <elliott> I am a very different person to who I was four years ago.
17:40:06 <int-e> elliott: sure, but do you consider yourself sane?
17:40:21 <elliott> well... my diagnoses say otherwise
17:40:55 <elliott> it's just like using ed for real!
17:41:01 <izabera> why do i have to be fooled by my own bot -.-
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17:42:01 <edirc> Warning: buffer modified
17:42:14 <izabera> well, it doesn't really work
17:42:16 <int-e> izabera: I know that. (But I had to look up how to get the list of active quiets.)
17:42:20 <izabera> it just re reads the same file
17:43:07 <elliott> I'm not convinced of its security in 2015.
17:43:15 <elliott> but I'm also too lazy to dig through what is probably a lot of code to exploit it
17:43:39 <int-e> it'd be easier to plant a backdoor
17:44:06 <pikhq> Mmm, delicious GNU bugginess.
17:44:18 <elliott> do you have a link to the source?
17:44:22 <pikhq> (pssst, musl's awesome)
17:44:30 <elliott> the bot linked that itself
17:44:32 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/edirc/blob/master/edirc
17:46:16 <elliott> thisis really fancy for bash
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17:48:03 <izabera> i mean, there's a befunge bot and i'm the masochist
17:48:43 <Jafet> There's no fungeshock
17:48:48 <pikhq> I would not have written that in bash myself. I'm kinda impressed really.
17:48:57 <elliott> befunge doesn't require you to quote everything!
17:49:16 <elliott> befunge has multiple implementations >.>
17:49:32 <pikhq> elliott: POSIX sh has multiple implementations. :P
17:50:08 <pikhq> (of course this is the least POSIX shell script)
17:50:39 <elliott> besides this channel can support multiple masochists
17:52:31 <int-e> unless they want money
17:53:09 <int-e> oh, it supports several ed sessions...
17:53:28 <elliott> izabera: do you write your web 2.0 applications in bash too
17:54:24 <int-e> it could be implemented on top of http://bellard.org/jslinux/
17:54:32 <pikhq> elliott: Writing CGI in bash is pretty easy (if frightening).
17:54:59 <pikhq> The tricky bit is doing an HTTP server.
17:55:28 <pikhq> I don't have one in bash for you, but one in C isn't that bad.
17:57:33 <elliott> you know what I regret saying that already
17:58:30 <int-e> elliott: this is the wrong channel for regrets.
18:04:59 <pikhq> Sides, what's not to love? http://sprunge.us/fBPj
18:07:06 <pikhq> 12:57 < pikhq> I don't have one in bash for you, but one in C isn't that bad.
18:11:43 <zemhill_> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -1.79, score 18.80, rank 24/47 (+1)
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18:35:20 <Sgeo> :/ is there a legal way to watch the 3d versions of 3d movies?
18:39:02 <oren> Sgeo: um. what kind of movies are you planning on watching?
18:39:12 <Sgeo> Avatar comes to mind
18:39:27 <Sgeo> As does The Last Airbender, but that's not a movie I'm inclined to watch again
18:40:59 <pikhq> Avatar in particular? Sure. Purchase a 3D TV, a 3D Bluray player, and the Avatar 3D Bluray.
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18:41:32 <Sgeo> Can I have the 3D Bluray player without a 3D TV?
18:41:43 <Sgeo> My Oculus Rift + some software could be used like a 3DTV
18:41:55 <Sgeo> Had some fun watching demos meant for 3DTV on YouTube
18:42:02 <pikhq> Um, that would make sense but I do not know for certain.
18:45:26 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS2C4UWu-pk was a fantastic experience, in a virtual theater
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19:15:43 <HackEgo> lleu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:29:23 * Sgeo sings Save... me....
19:30:25 <Sgeo> SAVE ME - SAVE ME FROM MY SELF TONIGHT
19:30:25 <Sgeo> SAVE ME - SAVE ME WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES
19:34:27 <Sgeo> I just really, really love that video
19:34:51 <Sgeo> Parallel viewing it works but not as well :/
19:40:46 <Sgeo> Why did 3D TV die?
19:42:46 <b_jonas> Sgeo: it will be reborn when it's ready, see http://www.xkcd.com/1497/
19:44:19 * Sgeo doesn't want Rift-like devices to die
19:45:12 <pikhq> Mostly because nobody cares about 3D TV.
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20:05:12 <Sgeo> I think I would enjoy a 3dtv or a 3d monitor
20:05:28 <Sgeo> Although now I effectively have a (low-resolution and cumbersome to use) one
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20:13:40 <mike_nm> do you like esoteric programming
20:14:25 -!- adu_ has joined.
20:14:50 -!- b_jonas has set topic: RIP Jiří Matoušek and Terry Pratchett | I'm a fungot trapped in a channel full of weirdos | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
20:15:05 <b_jonas> I'ma using the channel mode -t privilages
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21:08:42 <oren> "Please complete each of your course evaluations as soon as possible. We value your feedback!"
21:08:47 -!- iamevn has joined.
21:09:29 <oren> ... well why don't you stop striking and mark the assignments I hnded in 3 weeks ago?!?!
21:11:30 <oren> 0/10 went on strike and ruined everything, would not buy again
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21:16:04 <ais523> I figured out my bug, I was overflowing a buffer by 1 byte
21:16:20 <ais523> and valgrind didn't see it because it was on the stack
21:16:48 <iamevn> Is an implementation of brainfuck where moving the pointer left past where it starts isn't handled at all and just breaks things valid?
21:17:14 <iamevn> working on a translator from brainfuck to language I'm working on and not handling that makes things a lot simpler
21:17:19 <oren> bf dialects are highly variable
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21:18:57 <ais523> iamevn: that's normally considered valid, yes
21:19:21 <iamevn> awesome, then I should have a proof of turing completeness assuming I didn't mess up the translation somewhere
21:19:25 <ais523> also, if you're doing a BF-to-language compiler to prove BF-completeness, you can place pretty much arbitrary restrictions that don't break BF-completeness
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21:19:54 <ais523> BF is definitely Turing-complete with only a right-infinite tape
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21:21:01 <ais523> ooh, now I came up with another "is it TC or not?" problem: BF, except that only the prime-numbered tape elements are writable, the others stay permanently locked at 0
21:21:03 <iamevn> now to just rewrite the translator in my language instead of in racket.
21:21:32 <b_jonas> ais523: my guess is that it's TC, let me think
21:21:33 <ais523> oh, sub-TC, obviously; at some point on the tape, you get a sequence of consecutive composite numbers longer than the length of the program
21:21:37 <ais523> and can't get past it due to no loops
21:21:53 <ais523> so you only have finite accessible memory
21:22:06 <b_jonas> yes, if they're locked to zero the loop will exit
21:22:23 <b_jonas> but what if they're locked to nonzero instead?
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21:23:50 <ais523> yep, that's more interesting
21:25:06 <ais523> actually I think it's pretty simply TC, you use 0 and 1 as the only values on the writable cells
21:25:27 <b_jonas> ais523: but how do you skip to the next writable cell without destroying anything?
21:25:44 <ais523> you just test both 0 and 1 as the value for each cell
21:25:49 <ais523> if neither matches, you move on
21:26:15 <ais523> and in order to escape nested loops, you maintain every second writable cell at 0
21:27:06 <ais523> I'm not sure that works
21:27:32 <ais523> although, there are an infinite number of prime pairs…
21:27:42 <int-e> we're close enough to the twin prime conjecture to make it work.
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21:29:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's what I was thinking too. we know there is a natural number k such that there's infinitely many pairs of primes whose difference is k, we just can't name a k that definitely works.
21:29:23 <int-e> but we know that 2 <= k <= 246.
21:29:25 <b_jonas> still, bf is very limited and I don't understand it, so I don't know if this can be made to work
21:30:07 <b_jonas> I think it can probably be made to work
21:31:35 <ais523> b_jonas: int-e: wow, that result is absolutely amazing
21:36:55 <myname> like, how do we know this k exists?
21:37:15 <int-e> http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes
21:38:30 <int-e> I had a look at the paper that started this effort (and proved that k <= 7e7), but found it incomprehensible.
21:38:38 <int-e> Analytical number theory is hard.
21:39:20 <b_jonas> Anyway, yes, bounded prime gaps is an absolutely amazing results, and even the people who understand number theory (I don't, and I don't even try to) claim so.
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22:58:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42169 * Iamevn * (+9829) Created language page.
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23:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42170&oldid=42166 * Iamevn * (+12) /* W */ added wordy
23:08:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42171&oldid=42169 * Iamevn * (+130) /* Built in functions */
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23:19:28 <tswett> Foi, ozusgri fequ ummeioj querj oboliemo vo yuh yu cikepo omgyulori yum (u cryutfigri nejyuhyuoj bolcyuem eh) Uryuomoco?
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23:24:36 <olsner> Sbv, bmhftev srdh hzzrvbw dhrew bobyvrzb ib lhu lh pvxrcb bztlhybev lhz (h pelhgsvtev arwlhulhbw obyplhrz ru) Helhbzbpb?
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23:25:34 <ais523> this looks like some sort of substitution cupher
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23:27:34 <int-e> I see that olsner tried rot13
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23:28:35 <olsner> int-e: yes, it was not very successful
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23:37:33 <tswett> ais523: yug yuc yumjooj ceno celg eh cavcigyugagyuem syuhol.
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00:19:56 <int-e> tswett: pretty annoyed, I think.
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00:21:27 <int-e> tswett: should "querj" be "quearj"?
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00:22:36 <tswett> Chug'c quoug yu hyutiloj.
00:22:41 <int-e> good, then I just don't understand the rule for some of the "i".
00:23:13 <tswett> I just stuck some "i"s in to make it more pronounceable.
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00:36:32 <int-e> tswett: Ockosyuurri yuh iea semgyumao ge nupo gikec ryupo gfug.
00:43:10 <tswett> You didn't actually decipher it without foreknowledge, did you?
00:45:39 <int-e> > let s = "FOI, OZUSGRI FEQU UMMEIOJ QUERJ OBOLIEMO VO YUH YU CIKEPO OMGYULORI YUM (U CRYUTFIGRI NEJYUHYUOJ BOLCYUEM EH) URYUOMOCO? YUG YUC YUMJOOJ CENO CELG EH CAVCIGYUGAGYUEM SYUHOL." in reverse $ sort $ map (\x -> (length x, head x)) $ group $ sort $ map (take 2) $ tails s
00:45:40 <lambdabot> [(15,"YU"),(6," Y"),(5," C"),(4,"O "),(4,"J "),(3,"UM"),(3,"UH"),(3,"UE"),(3...
00:46:04 <int-e> after I did that, things became much easier :P
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00:54:22 <int-e> tswett: actually I still don't know where the code comes from; I find lots of Futurama references, but they only seem to be using a special font.
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01:06:58 <izabera> let's play cat replacer! fun for all the family
01:08:00 <izabera> `run ed -s twolines <<< ,p
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01:18:41 <fizzie> We had a departmental christmas party game built around that, I think.
01:18:56 <fizzie> The twist was that after each thing, the commands used for that were removed from the system.
01:19:53 <izabera> i can play that for a while
01:20:19 <fizzie> I liked the spam game more.
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01:20:36 <fizzie> The goal was to write an email that gets the highest score from SpamAssassin.
01:21:34 <int-e> `` dd if=twolines status=none | tac | tac | sort
01:21:35 <HackEgo> dd: invalid status flag: `none' \ Try `dd --help' for more information.
01:21:47 <int-e> `` dd if=twolines | tac | tac | sort
01:21:48 <HackEgo> 0+1 records in \ 0+1 records out \ 13 bytes (13 B) copied, 0.000631 s, 20.6 kB/s \ first \ second
01:23:03 <izabera> oh i didn't read the first one D:
01:23:24 <HackEgo> dd (coreutils) 8.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Paul Rubin, David MacKenzie, and Stuart Kemp.
01:24:20 <izabera> well, just use 2>/dev/null :P
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01:27:10 <int-e> `` grep s twolines
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01:30:32 <izabera> `` ex -sc "1,$p|q" twolines
01:31:06 <int-e> oerjan: less acts like cat if the output is not a terminal
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01:31:38 * oerjan never tried running it that way, obviously
01:31:55 <int-e> `` cp twolines /dev/stdout
01:32:15 <int-e> `` mv twolines /dev/stdout
01:32:16 <HackEgo> mv: inter-device move failed: `twolines' to `/dev/stdout'; unable to remove target: Read-only file system
01:32:45 <int-e> head and tail will also work (since the file is short)
01:32:48 <ais523> what a detailed error message
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01:33:18 <oerjan> `` mv twolines /dev/fnord
01:33:19 <HackEgo> mv: inter-device move failed: `twolines' to `/dev/fnord'; unable to remove target: Read-only file system
01:33:32 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /dev/fnord: No such file or directory
01:33:58 <oerjan> ais523: not very precise that last message
01:34:41 <oerjan> `` mv twolines /hackenv/twolines
01:34:41 <HackEgo> mv: `twolines' and `/hackenv/twolines' are the same file
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01:35:38 <fizzie> `run while read f ; do printf "%s\n" $f; done < twolines
01:35:39 <oerjan> i wonder how it gets to give "unable to remove target" when the target doesn't exist, given that it has to check whether they're the same file before it can try the removal.
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01:36:36 <izabera> `run mapfile < twolines; printf %s "${MAPFILE[@]}"
01:37:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mapfile: not found
01:37:18 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:37:26 <HackEgo> mapfile: mapfile [-n count] [-O origin] [-s count] [-t] [-u fd] [-C callback] [-c quantum] [array] \ Read lines from the standard input into an indexed array variable. \ \ Read lines from the standard input into the indexed array variable ARRAY, or \ from file descriptor FD if the -u option is supplied. The variable MAPFILE \
01:37:30 <int-e> `` lynx -source twolines 2>/dev/null
01:37:59 <int-e> `` lynx -source twolines
01:38:00 <HackEgo> \ Configuration file "/etc/lynx-cur/lynx.cfg" is not available.
01:38:36 <fizzie> `run perl -pe '' twolines
01:38:41 <oerjan> are you having a "write cat" competition
01:38:47 <int-e> `` lynx -cfg=/dev/null -source twolines
01:38:48 <HackEgo> \ Lynx file "/etc/lynx-cur/lynx.lss" is not available.
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01:41:59 <oerjan> this is _so_ messing up my obsessive logreading order
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01:43:06 <fizzie> `run pod2text --code twolines
01:43:27 <oerjan> darn you did both sed and perl already
01:43:37 <oerjan> i suppose those were too easy
01:44:25 <elliott> izabera: how do you know about all these obscure bash things
01:44:30 * int-e is mostly looking for things that act like cat on the specific given input, but aren't.
01:44:49 <elliott> weren't you just denying being a nerd earlier :p
01:45:55 <elliott> that very fact makes you 100% nerd
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01:46:15 <izabera> what if i had a non-nerd-o-meter?
01:46:43 <fizzie> `run interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo ',[.,]') < twolines # except if you start this way, there's going to be no end
01:46:51 <elliott> anything involving having meters that in some way correlate to your nerdiness is inherently nerdy
01:47:09 <elliott> fizzie: doesn't work for files with nul bytes!
01:47:14 <oerjan> `` cpp -o /dev/output twolines
01:47:16 <HackEgo> cc1: fatal error: opening output file /dev/output: Read-only file system \ compilation terminated.
01:47:31 <HackEgo> \ \ 2015-03-22 01:07 twolines Page 1 \ \ \ first \ second
01:47:37 <HackEgo> # 1 "twolines" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "twolines" \ first \ second
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01:50:20 <elliott> get random bytes from FILE
01:50:37 <elliott> just have to craft a file that makes it output files in order
01:50:39 <oerjan> `` xargs -n1 <twolines
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01:50:59 <izabera> elliott: i doubt it even exists :P
01:51:09 <elliott> well, it should for any given file
01:51:14 <elliott> and probably any given file of a certain line length?
01:51:28 <elliott> the question is whether the prefixes stay the same though
01:51:37 <elliott> as in whether the file for length n + 1 lines is an extension of the file for length n lines
01:51:41 <elliott> it would depend on the algorithm shuf uses
01:53:30 <fizzie> `run echo "~:1+!#@_," > /tmp/tmp.bf && interps/befunge/bef.bin /tmp/tmp.bf < twolines
01:53:50 <int-e> `` { nc -q1 -l -p 12345 < twolines > /dev/null & }; sleep 1; nc 127.0.0.1 12345 < /dev/null
01:54:36 <fizzie> `run socat STDIN STDOUT < twolines
01:55:02 <fizzie> (Thanks to nc for inspiration.)
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01:57:10 <izabera> `` gzip -c twolines | zcat
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02:01:59 <oerjan> `` rev <twolines | rev
02:02:29 <oerjan> (inspired by int-e's tacs)
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02:05:22 <izabera> i tried to play this in other channels and i was muted / banned / insulted / ignored
02:05:42 <elliott> thankfully there is no signal-to-noise ratio to ruin here!
02:05:48 <fizzie> `run bzip2 -c twolines | bzcat # in the spirit of trivial variations
02:07:03 <HackEgo> bash: whicg: command not found
02:07:10 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/xz \ /usr/bin/lzma
02:08:59 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
02:09:06 <elliott> `run rot13 twolines | rot13
02:09:32 <izabera> `run rot13 < twolines | rot13
02:10:23 <int-e> `` first() { echo first; }; second() { echo second; }; source twolines
02:10:51 <oerjan> int-e: i guess that's perfection
02:11:34 <oerjan> we're approaching a narcissist variant
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02:12:09 <int-e> there's also the destructive variant: true > twolines
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02:13:08 <elliott> I like useless use of cat :(
02:13:36 <izabera> zsh is way cool with its MULTIOS system
02:13:37 <int-e> It's funny that $(< foo) works
02:13:46 <int-e> I didn't know that.
02:14:38 <zzo38> Finally I got my domain name corrected
02:15:05 <oerjan> zzo38: that took a while
02:15:48 <elliott> your shell knowledge scares me
02:16:08 <elliott> multios sounds like some ancient precursor to multics
02:16:21 <int-e> . o O ( Ghost in a shell. )
02:16:49 <elliott> :>* is a good zsh program to ruin everything in your cwd
02:17:01 <elliott> it's a pointy smiley with an evil goatee
02:17:21 <oerjan> this shell does not sound cat-proof
02:17:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it did take a while because they did not have time to fix it before, but now they did.
02:19:04 <oerjan> pikhq: how ghosty of you
02:19:25 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
02:20:00 <oerjan> i don't think there were any message characters at all
02:20:30 <oerjan> (irssi/putty seemed to think the line stopped there)
02:21:02 <oerjan> it doesn't seem to keep track of trailing spaces
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02:22:14 <pikhq> oerjan: That was just my terminal freaking out on me.
02:22:16 <int-e> IRC does not really support empty messages.
02:24:16 * oerjan cannot remember the irssi command to make a raw irc command (it's _not_ /raw)
02:24:17 <zzo38> If you try to send empty message you will get a 412 error message.
02:24:31 <zzo38> But you can add spaces and then it will work
02:26:44 <zzo38> At least in IRC client I am using it is /RAW to send raw data to the remote host, although I have never needed it and is probably unnecessary; it does absolutely no processing on the data if doing this and doesn't even add CRLF (you must add that by yourself)
02:27:53 <izabera> but writing a \n will be hard
02:28:44 <zzo38> Well, in the client I use, you can push CTRL+P before any character to insert that character raw into the input buffer, so you can do it that way
02:28:56 <izabera> the server will interpret it
02:29:52 <zzo38> Once it is sent it will, yes
02:30:24 <izabera> so yeah writing \n may be easy but receiving it is not
02:30:45 <oerjan> i recall irssi used to have a /quote version that didn't append \r\n but i cannot find it again
02:31:21 <oerjan> i managed to ping out because of it before i realized it wasn't the useful command
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02:31:45 <zzo38> (Also if the raw data contains a space, you will need to put a colon in front, because the client interprets the commands in the same way of the server interpreting commands.)
02:31:48 <oerjan> (presumably the text got prepended to the following PONG
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02:32:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I would suppose that's why it does that
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02:33:43 <zzo38> Still, I have never needed /RAW because the default processing of commands in this client works good enough
02:35:18 <zzo38> The purposes of /RAW are things that never seem necessary, but are: Sending commands in lowercase, sending commands that start with a slash or space, prevent automatically changing the channel, and send other control characters that the server might use but aren't IRC commands (this probably never happens, but just in case)
02:35:38 <zzo38> Or, perhaps, sending mispaired CR/LF for testing purposes
02:36:44 <int-e> Or sending nonstandard commands (I have aliases NS = QUOTE NICKSERV and CS = QUOTE CHANSERV)
02:36:46 <zzo38> But, I don't know if anyone has ever needed such a thing at all.
02:36:59 <zzo38> int-e: No it isn't needed for the client I am using.
02:38:01 <zzo38> Also the IRC server already supports NS and CS commands directly.
02:38:34 <zzo38> If you type "NS INFO" then you can see the information of your account.
02:39:43 <int-e> well I'm not using your client
02:40:22 <zzo38> OK, although, the IRC server already can use NS and CS commands
02:40:27 <zzo38> At least, Freenode can.
02:40:38 <int-e> and irssi doesn't have its own builtin commands for ns/nickserv or cs/chanserv.
02:40:57 <int-e> (NICKSERV and NS are aliases on the server side)
02:41:27 <izabera> doesn't irssi send unknown commands as raw?
02:41:33 <zzo38> Yes, so the server already supports it; the client doesn't need its own builtin commands for such things
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02:45:14 <int-e> Yes but in *this* client, /quote is how you issue server side commands that the client doesn't support directly.
02:46:04 <zzo38> Still the client doesn't need it builtin if it has such thing as that too
02:46:38 <zzo38> Anyways NS and CS isn't a standard IRC command, but some IRC servers do add extra commands on for various reasons and it is sometimes useful to have.
02:49:08 <zzo38> Such as my own IRC adds a FLUSH command to cause it to flush the file buffer to output to the log files of the specified channel. Many add NS and CS, and some have additional services too. There is also a standard SUMMON command although as far as I know, nobody except me implements it.
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02:53:52 <zzo38> Private messages aren't logged; only permanent channels are logged, and the log files are public.
02:54:22 <int-e> izabera: say hello to clog and glogbot
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02:54:31 * oerjan _only_ logs private messages, mostly because #esoteric is already publically logged
02:54:56 <int-e> (they're the bots feeding the two public logs in the topic)
02:55:01 <shachaf> oerjan: so it sounds like you and zzo38 together log all messages
02:55:02 <elliott> izabera: (this channel is logged >_>)
02:55:03 <zzo38> Well, to log private message you send and receive, for your own purpose, is OK
02:55:06 <elliott> and google indexes the logs
02:55:24 <izabera> having server-wide logs is creepy
02:55:26 <zzo38> Although, in my case I am logging all public messages to permanent channels in public.
02:56:10 <zzo38> Still I don't (and don't want to) log private messages.
02:56:31 <oerjan> shachaf: if we only were logging the same server
02:57:04 <zzo38> So you can still seend a message to another client directly without being logged (I won't see the message either, unless I am the recipient).
02:58:10 <zzo38> (In such case you can still get logged by the sender and/or receiver of the message, but not by any other clients nor by the server.)
02:59:25 <fizzie> The IRCnet ircd still supports SUMMON, though it's not enabled by default, or in the IRCnet servers.
03:00:06 <fizzie> (It does the write(1)-style of thing of writing to the specified user's tty.)
03:00:30 <scarf> how does the ircd have perms to write to a tty?
03:00:36 <scarf> do they have to be on the local system?
03:00:37 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523.
03:00:44 <ais523> as in, the user has to be on the same system as the ircd
03:00:57 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, that's how it has always worked.
03:01:29 <ais523> probably not very useful for most modern uses of IRC, then
03:01:42 <fizzie> "The SUMMON command can be used to give users who are on a host running an IRC server a message asking them to please join IRC. This message is only sent if the target server (a) has SUMMON enabled, (b) the user is logged in and (c) the server process can write to the user's tty (or similar)."
03:01:49 <fizzie> Yes, it's very much of a relic.
03:02:08 <izabera> irc servers can write to the user's tty. take this, facebook chat
03:03:31 <fizzie> Giving them the proper sgid settings is also not part of the standard install, you have to manually arrange for that too.
03:03:36 <ais523> also requires IRC username to match UNIX username
03:03:51 <ais523> I guess you could SUMMON by username anyway
03:04:07 <fizzie> Yes, you give it a username.
03:04:37 <fizzie> But IRCnet is all dedicated servers, so it wouldn't be very useful.
03:05:21 <fizzie> (You don't have to be on the same server, you can "SUMMON user some.other.server" too.)
03:06:41 <fizzie> Also a relic: write(1). I wouldn't be surprised if these days it's major use was to be a mild annoyance at people who are trying to look at the man page for write(3) but neglect to specify the section.
03:13:44 <izabera> oh fuck not again this stupid tcl man page
03:15:47 <zzo38> On my own computer I use sounds to implement SUMMON, although when working on UNIX systems I do tend to tell them that they can just write to my tty or I can write to their tty, although the other people tend to prefer otherwise
03:17:11 <ais523> I have 6 virtual terminals open right now
03:17:18 <ais523> so people writing to them wouldn't know which one I wanted them to write to
03:17:25 <ais523> (and I'm currently not looking at any of them)
03:18:01 <zzo38> Which ones are you logged into though?
03:18:23 <zzo38> All of them or only some?
03:18:23 <ais523> they're running with my perms
03:18:34 <ais523> I have another 6 running from getty but I'm not logged into any of those
03:18:52 <ais523> (although I used one earlier to kill a process that was causing swapping)
03:18:54 <elliott> fizzie: this makes me want networked wall
03:19:01 <elliott> wait that was literally what that XP thing was
03:19:08 <elliott> back when you could pop up an alert box for anyone just by knowing their IP
03:19:15 <elliott> remember how microsoft released an operating system with that feature??
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03:20:08 <fizzie> I remember when they released Windows 3.11 for Workgroups, yes.
03:20:08 <zzo38> Well, the other method is if you have a IRC server then SUMMON can be used, and then can be implemented according to how it is wanted to implemented.
03:20:53 <zzo38> Or use the message send protocol
03:22:25 <ais523> elliott: you wouldn't even have to know their IP, sending to every IPv4 address in the address space is within the reach of modern computers/connectinos
03:22:39 <elliott> ais523: that involves knowing their IP though
03:22:45 <elliott> I mean that is a method of finding their IP
03:22:51 <elliott> okay this is an epistemological objection
03:23:00 <ais523> you still wouldn't know what their IP was even after the message had been sent
03:23:15 <elliott> but you would know their IP
03:23:17 <elliott> just not that it's theirs.
03:23:39 <fizzie> In the same way everyone knows all the IPs?
03:23:39 <elliott> okay let's stop this conversation right here before we get deep into semiotics
03:23:40 <ais523> I'm not sure I agree with your semantics there
03:23:56 <elliott> but we don't "know" all the IPv6s in a concrete sense. okay, this is incoherent
03:24:08 <ais523> just because there are too many of them?
03:25:15 <elliott> if we have an action to be performed on an IPv4 address
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03:25:18 <ais523> I mean, even 4 billion is a big number
03:25:24 <elliott> and we want that action to be performed on the address owned by a certain person
03:25:35 <elliott> uh, depending on what the action is
03:25:36 <ais523> even 3714444 is a big number (which is the number of tests my NH4 testsuite wants to run)
03:25:47 <HackEgo> 3714444: 2 2 3 3 3 163 211
03:25:51 <elliott> "come to know whether or not the address belongs to a pre-specified person" is not a valid action
03:26:05 <ais523> as long as it's a write-only action
03:26:20 <elliott> but the point is that we can't do the same for IPv6, because brute force isn't a viable strategy there; you need more information.
03:26:30 <elliott> ais523: right. IPv4 -> (), in a sense.
03:26:49 <elliott> or, even, IPv4 -> only things derivable from communicating with that address. oh, god, somebody stop me
03:26:54 <ais523> in a sense that allows some sort of side effect
03:27:18 <ais523> oh, a couple of days ago I met an F# fan
03:27:29 <ais523> but they weren't talking about F#, so it wasn't very informative in that respect
03:29:41 <elliott> anyway, the point is that Windows XP SP0 wouldn't have had as huge a spam problem if we had moved to IPv6-only before then
03:29:48 <elliott> draw whatever conclusions you wish
03:34:10 <ais523> new technologies tend to be widely deployed before people think about their security implications
03:36:09 <elliott> thank you, but I actually said draw, not type
03:36:15 <elliott> please do that again but as an image
03:36:41 <ais523> can't you just take a screenshot?
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03:43:20 <oerjan> elliott: i think an interpretive dance would be better hth
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03:44:09 <shachaf> oerjan: careful you might evoke the wrath of edwardk hth
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03:45:50 <oerjan> i am sorry i wasn't aware that edwardk hated interpretive dance
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03:49:56 <oerjan> also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAJBuGwQEHg
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04:06:20 <zzo38> 7-Zip can support many file formats, but I want to add also support of Hamster archive (without autodetection). I have successfully used 7-Zip to load .lzh files and .dmg files, as well as .rar files. (Probably hamarc is a better program to deal with Hamster archives, but still it can be useful to support many format in case someone has 7-Zip and try to load it)
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04:17:11 <fizzie> In the tube, there was a charity ad for something called the "Orbis Flying Eye Hospital".
04:17:15 <fizzie> I think I parsed it wrong.
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04:17:59 <fizzie> (Although flying isn't quite floating.)
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04:37:48 <Jafet> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/The_Original_Advertisement.jpg
04:48:18 <izabera> did you see github's unicorn?
04:51:50 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/9ILmkTW.png here it is
04:52:39 <L8D> isn't that d. shaw's user icon?
04:52:57 <izabera> idk, i've seen it today for the first time
04:53:13 <L8D> there's some person in the same group as zed shaw who uses that pic on twitter
04:54:03 <izabera> they used it during their downtime today
04:54:39 <L8D> I don't think it was that unicorn in specific
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05:09:01 <oerjan> not to diminish his grief, but has anyone other than b_jonas heard about that Matoušek guy before
05:11:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nadinepi * New user account
05:11:57 <ais523> any bets on whether or not that's a spambot account?
05:12:13 <ais523> it sort-of looks like it could be, but "pi" is a bit shorter than their normal surnames
05:12:40 <oerjan> i initially parsed it as 4 random cv syllables
05:12:58 <oerjan> which is something a spambot might also do
05:13:32 <ais523> hasn't hit the abuse log yet
05:13:40 <oerjan> ais523: you will be sorry when she posts her magnificent circular language
05:14:00 <oerjan> or possibly elated, it's that magnificent
05:14:24 <oerjan> shachaf: ME AM PLAY LINGUIST
05:14:30 <shachaf> What is a circular language?
05:14:47 <oerjan> shachaf: i dunno but anyone named pi surely knows how to make one
05:15:02 <shachaf> oerjan: You reminded me of elementary school English class, where they taught us that you double the second consonant in the "-ing" form of a word when you have a word of the form CVC
05:15:08 <shachaf> For instance, run->running
05:15:31 <shachaf> I have no idea if this rule is legitimate. It surely has exceptions, and at least this differs between US and UK English.
05:15:53 <shachaf> Anyway I probably haven't thought about the c/v thing since then.
05:16:13 <ais523> shachaf: the normal rule is that you have to double the consonant if it'd affect the pronunciation of the last vowel in the word
05:16:15 <oerjan> i've been rereading the language construction kit recently
05:16:19 <ais523> e.g. "runing" would have a long "u"
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05:16:39 <shachaf> I didn't like that class very much.
05:16:55 <shachaf> What do you do for e.g. "cancel"?
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05:16:56 <oerjan> shachaf: you forgot the hth how can edwardk bot impersonate you if you keep changing
05:17:22 <shachaf> oerjan: where did you hear about that twh
05:18:24 <oren> travelling, sinning, fapping... but it doesn't work for eating or jumping
05:18:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> What do you do for e.g. "cancel"? <-- develop a US/UK split, imo
05:20:07 <ais523> shachaf: "cancelling", "travelling" in UK english
05:20:42 <oren> Canadian english tends to be halfway between the two
05:22:03 <oren> hmm, so p, n, and l tend to double while t and d don't
05:22:26 <oren> no wait, adding does
05:22:58 <oren> screw it english has no damn rules
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05:24:23 <ais523> oren: "add" has two d's already
05:24:23 <oren> OH. it's sort of phonetc
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05:24:57 <oren> see, rapping has a short vowel while raping has a long vowel
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05:25:46 <oren> So if the word has a long vowel like eat, there is no double.
05:26:56 <oren> consider hearing versus herring
05:27:50 <oren> bite biting, blit blitting
05:28:09 <oren> holy shit my world is changed]
05:29:05 <oren> shachaf that is a compund word though. ear ring
05:30:02 <shachaf> you'll be earring from my lawyer
05:30:08 <oren> which is why cupboard isn't cubberd
05:31:17 <oren> if someone is runing they are clearly carving runes
05:34:12 <oren> anyway to me "Nadinepi" looks like "na-di-ne-pi"
05:34:57 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: where did you hear about that twh <-- check the logs hth
05:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: a quick search with /last didn't find it hth
05:36:29 <oerjan> now if i only kept logs
05:37:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: 20:32 <edwardk> one of these days i'll write a shachaf bot that takes random text and puts hth on the end and i,i at the start at random intervals throughout
05:37:14 <oerjan> I THINK I'VE FOUND THE CULPRIT HTH
05:38:03 <shachaf> that works better if you pronounce j like jack
05:38:44 <shachaf> jack pronounces j like y, though
05:39:00 <oerjan> <oren> anyway to me "Nadinepi" looks like "na-di-ne-pi" <-- that's equivalent to what i said hth
05:41:51 <oren> tar -xvzf songs.tgz
05:43:20 <oren> xkcd claims tar commands are hard to remember but i know them well
05:44:49 <oren> What I don't like is that I don't know how to run ssh and scp in the same terminal
05:46:10 <zzo38> When I am using tar I just use pipes with tar though
05:49:47 <oren> zzo38: is there a way to tar at this end and make a pipe to the other computer?
05:50:04 <oren> and then run tar -x at the other end
05:51:04 <zzo38> Yes you can use netcat
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05:52:49 <lambdabot> ENVA 220520Z 16005KT 130V200 9999 -SN FEW013 BKN032 M00/M03 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 19015KT
05:53:07 <oerjan> WHY IS THERE SNOW OUTSIDE
05:53:36 <oerjan> (ok it's melting, but still...)
05:53:43 <oren> you're in scandinavia in march hth
05:54:21 <oren> there is snow outside here too
05:55:17 <lambdabot> CYYZ 220500Z 30016KT 15SM FEW030 M06/M14 A3014 RMK SC1 SC TR SLP215
05:55:55 <oerjan> pesky bragging canadians
05:56:40 <lambdabot> KSJC 220553Z 29005KT 10SM BKN200 14/10 A3014 RMK AO2 SLP207 T01440100 10222 20144 51013
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05:57:27 <oerjan> pesky bragging californians
05:58:45 <lambdabot> LLBG 220550Z 27012KT 9999 FEW040 16/06 Q1019 NOSIG
06:02:45 <oerjan> pesky bragging californian jews
06:03:59 <oerjan> i wasn't sure whether to leave in the californian
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06:11:46 <Sgeo> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ceekars-4d-headphones-for-vr-games-movies-music why is this a thing
06:11:57 <Sgeo> this should not be a thing, this should be done in software afaik
06:12:42 <oerjan> from this and xkcd we deduce that it will become immensely popular
06:12:44 <oren> your ears have two channels... why does any douns system have more than two channels
06:13:15 <oren> how the hell did I spell sound that badly
06:14:13 <Sgeo> oren: well, in theaters, it's hard to make ear A not hear what is intended for ear B
06:14:20 <oerjan> oren: it makes sense in a room with several listeners but not in headphones i think
06:15:05 <oren> Sgeo: that would suggest you should only have one channel
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06:18:17 <oren> or are you suggesting the four channels use synced waves to cancel out the left channel at the right ear and cancel the right channel at the left ear?
06:20:16 <Sgeo> I have no idea. I guess I'm imaging several surrounding channels used to fake positions poorly, as an imitation of what can be done with true 2 channel audio
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06:21:02 <oren> Hmm... yeah that might work. I'm glad I own earbuds though.
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06:21:49 <oren> Theatres should put headphone jacks on the seats like on an airplane
06:22:51 <Sgeo> Why does that word look so weird
06:23:40 <oren> because the word imagine breaks the "e makes vowels long" rule
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06:30:00 <oren> hold on, what is up with the word poor? sometimes when I say it it rhymes with door, and sometimes with boor.
06:31:15 * oerjan has no idea how boor is pronounced
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06:36:06 <oren> lol. go to this page and click on the play buttons to annoy people
06:36:09 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio
06:38:04 <oren> like "dude, wtf" "AAHH UUHH OOHH EEE" "come on, stop it!" "AYYY OOUU AWWW"
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07:12:47 <myname> oren: are you singing system of a down songs?
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08:07:19 <lambdabot> git clone git://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot.git
08:07:49 <oerjan> > let (a,g) = System.Random.random (System.Random.mkStdGen 4) in a :: Int
08:07:51 <lambdabot> No instance for (System.Random.Random t0)
08:07:51 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘g’
08:07:51 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
08:08:15 <oerjan> most ridiculous failure of type inference ever?
08:15:09 <ais523> :t System.Random.random
08:15:10 <lambdabot> (Random a, RandomGen g) => g -> (a, g)
08:15:26 <oerjan> > let (a,_) = System.Random.random (System.Random.mkStdGen 4) in a :: Int
08:15:47 <ais523> oerjan: I don't believe the type of System.Random.random has any implication that the types of a and g are in any way connected
08:16:02 <ais523> which explains both the results you show there
08:16:25 <oerjan> the problem is that g is _clearly_ of type StdGen in both cases
08:17:04 <oerjan> the type of _that_ is not polymorphic at all. so why does whether it is named or not affect whether the rest types?
08:17:51 <oerjan> it does affect what the _value_ of g is.
08:19:12 <oerjan> (this was an SO question btw)
08:19:51 <ais523> but Haskell's types aren't meta-polymorphic, in that if you have a variable of type g, that determines whether it's also of type h for any type h
08:21:34 <ais523> if I have a function that I know outputs a value of type JComponent
08:21:44 <ais523> that doesn't let me determine whether the output is, say, of type JFrame
08:21:59 <ais523> whereas, in Haskell, if a function outputs a StdGen, I know it's a StdGen and nothinge lse
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08:54:46 <b_jonas> oerjan: I dunno, but people keep asking questions about computational geometry on irc and other forums, and these questions are getting more and more relevant these days just like how machine vision is getting more relevant, so I think it can't hurt if at least the mathematically inclined people hear about him.
08:57:55 <b_jonas> oren: sure, you can use ssh somecomputer tar cC somedir . | tar xv
08:58:26 <b_jonas> but be careful because the shell will reinterpret that command on the other machine, so you have to quote some characters two or three levels
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12:45:42 <fizzie> shachaf: Re the CVC + double-consonant + -ing theory, mix -> mixxing?
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12:50:44 <fizzie> Or in general with 'w' in the end. (paw, row, saw, sew, tow.)
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15:13:37 <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes
15:14:13 <boily> olsner: no problem. always at people's service.
15:14:20 <HackEgo> Jumbo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:14:45 <oren> is django that python CGI thing?
15:15:00 <boily> hellolsner, helloren.
15:15:00 <ais523> boily: you broke the streak
15:15:12 <ais523> olsner being in all the django quotes was hilarious
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15:15:32 <boily> oren: it's (probably) the most popularest python web framework.
15:15:47 <ais523> clearly you should do Python websites with twisted
15:16:12 <ais523> what would be less appropriate
15:16:16 <ais523> numpy? that's arguably more appropriate though
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15:16:27 <ais523> as well as less likely to be used by mistake
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15:16:33 <olsner> fwiw, I've never used django, but have done things with twisted
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15:16:50 <oren> I'm only really familiar with PHP/zend, PHP/codeigniter and Perl/abomination written by dad
15:16:59 <boily> I did stuff with django. it was interesting, but I prefer pyramid
15:17:03 <ais523> I've "used" twisted in the sense of working from existing code without understanding it
15:17:05 <boily> (twisted is just abhorrent.)
15:17:13 <ais523> and just copying lines of code and experimenting until things worked
15:17:22 <ais523> therefore, statistically speaking
15:17:29 <ais523> it's likely to be the worst code I've written in the past 5 years or so
15:17:46 <shachaf> fizzie: I never said this rule was reliable. I think I found it suspicious even then in 3rd grade or whenever it was when I hardly spoke any English.
15:18:01 <ais523> are there any reliable rules in English?
15:18:11 <ais523> "single letters pluralize with apostrophe-s" perhaps
15:18:18 <ais523> that one has to be taught because it's so different from everything else
15:18:22 <shachaf> fizzie: Some people might argue that x really stands for ks in this case, and that w isn't quite a consonant since it sort of forms a diphthong.
15:18:27 <ais523> and only affects 26 words, so…
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15:18:45 <shachaf> I don't pluralize with apostrophes, in general.
15:18:51 <ais523> shachaf: nobody does in almost any case
15:18:54 <ais523> that's why the letters are weird
15:19:00 <oren> I was taught to use names for letters
15:19:03 <shachaf> If it would be ambiguous I quote with an apostrophe in on both sides, as in "'a's".
15:19:06 <ais523> (probably because 'a' to 'as', 'i' to 'i's just doesn't work)
15:19:30 <ais523> apostrophe both sides could work, I guess
15:19:36 <oren> aes bees cees dees ees efs gees
15:19:37 <ais523> (ofc, the plural of "I" is actually "we")
15:20:27 <ais523> YAELI: you start with a sequence of letters of your choice, then you can only apply standard English tense formation rules to it
15:20:34 <ais523> well, pluralizing, noun→verb, and so on
15:20:47 <ais523> whether this can be TC rather depends on how absurd the rules are
15:21:01 <ais523> shachaf: \Sigma_{i \in us}, surely?
15:21:29 <ais523> I'm just used to the use of i as a loop variable
15:21:39 <oren> also H's is supposed to be "aitches".
15:22:01 <shachaf> all the cat's are out of the bag
15:22:12 <ais523> huh, given the context
15:22:21 <ais523> I interpreted "cat's" as the pluralization of the UNIX command cat
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15:22:58 <ais523> (because the plural of the animal is "cats", and because "cat" the command can sensibly be written in tt-font, and the single letters are sensibly interpreted as tt-font too)
15:23:39 <shachaf> If you're using a different font you don't need to disambiguate.
15:23:56 <oren> but it is biguated by context
15:24:32 <ais523> what principle are you removing the "am-" prefix on?
15:24:53 <ais523> it's not like "co-" or "un-" which in #esoteric prefix can be cancelled on another "co-" or "un-" respectively
15:25:02 <oren> hydrous anhydrous
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15:25:30 <ais523> and there aren't any prefix-changing prefixes involved
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15:26:02 <oren> ais523: the N undergoes a labialization to M because of the B
15:26:20 <ais523> hmm, I'm not used to "anb" to "amb" but I can believe it
15:27:13 <ais523> oren: I'm not convinced that that ever had an an- prefix
15:27:25 <oren> I am not aware of any words with "nb" cluster anyway
15:27:48 <ais523> there have to be lots, surely
15:27:52 * ais523 greps /usr/share/dict/words
15:28:40 <ais523> we don't say "umbreakable"
15:29:03 <boily> fungot: do you umbreak?
15:29:03 <fungot> boily: ah...... use what you like
15:29:13 <boily> fungot: thanks! umbreakable it is, then!
15:29:14 <fungot> boily: yay. no more than any other oo system i've seen outperform sisc reliably by more than an order of magnitude
15:29:52 <oren> ais523: I'm having trouble distinctly saying unbreakable without it being un *glottal stop* breakable
15:30:25 <ais523> I have 61 "unb-" words, 15 "umb-" words
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15:30:49 <ais523> and the "umb-" words are things like "umbrella" where the root seems to contain the m and b together
15:31:19 <oren> Oh. example symbiosis
15:31:34 <oren> with syn + biosis
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15:32:13 <b_jonas> There's also the question whether when "n" is turned to the labiodental nasal [M] in eg. "information", it should be transcribed as "n" or "m".
15:32:30 <b_jonas> As in, when it turns to "m" like in "embiggen", it's usually written as "m".
15:32:53 <ais523> b_jonas: the first "n" in "information" is definitely pronounced as an "n" for me
15:33:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I pronounce it as a labiodental nasal, that is, at the same place of articulation as the [f]: with the lower lips and upper teeth
15:33:23 <boily> symphony is the canonical labiodental example.
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15:33:30 <ais523> boily: I definitely don't
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15:33:37 <b_jonas> the question is whether that is more similar to "n" or "m".
15:33:38 <boily> ais523: wikipedia does.
15:33:51 <ais523> I guess it depends on accent a lot
15:34:11 <b_jonas> boily: but is that a modified "n" etymologycally?
15:34:15 <oren> um.. i'mma say it should be written as whichever it is in source language
15:34:48 <b_jonas> oren: that applies if it's a greek or latin borrowing as a whole, but what about new words with the in- prefix?
15:36:17 <oren> hmm... infertile, inflame infect... seems like 'nf' is how you write such clusters
15:37:44 <ais523> why would you change "in-" before "f"? "f" is a vowel
15:38:00 <b_jonas> ais523: what? "f" is a consonant
15:38:12 <ais523> b_jonas: you can hold an "f" indefinitely
15:38:14 <b_jonas> ais523: and for the same reason why you usually change it to "m" before a "p"
15:38:16 <ais523> you can't do that with true consonants like "b"
15:38:29 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, because the "f" is a fricative, the "b" is a plosive
15:38:30 <ais523> (actually I think the normal term is "semi-vowel")
15:38:33 <oren> ais523: f is a hissing noise between lower lip and upper teeth
15:38:55 <b_jonas> ais523: "s" is a fricative too, which is why you can hold "s" indefinitely too, or at least as long as you're out of breath
15:39:36 <b_jonas> as long as you're _not_ out of breath
15:39:40 <ais523> quite a lot of apparent consonants can be held
15:39:46 <ais523> "l", "r", "p" at a stretch
15:39:53 <oren> 'synchronous' changes it to /ŋk/
15:40:15 <ais523> there's also something in the "g"/"j" space that can be held but it's not exactly either letter
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15:40:33 <ais523> probably the Chinese "zh" actually
15:40:46 <b_jonas> oren: yes, before a "k" or "g" the "n" usually changes to a "ng" sound
15:41:03 <oren> the chinese zh is /ts/ iirc
15:41:05 <ais523> "m" and "n" can be held; "kh" can be; "r" can be
15:41:24 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, the [ʃ] and [ʒ] sounds are fricatives (they work almost the same as [s] and [z]) and thus can be held indefinitely
15:41:25 <ais523> oren: I thought it was the second half of an English "j" (the first half is a "d")
15:42:14 <b_jonas> ais523: the [n] has a so called "release" which you can do only once and not hold, and is similar to the release of the [b], and this is preceded by a nasal sound
15:42:41 <ais523> b_jonas: is it possible to not do the release at all?
15:42:45 <b_jonas> ais523: the English j is very similar or the same as a [dʒ]
15:42:49 <ais523> I guess I can get a [n] to trail off
15:43:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but then people will think you're French, and _then_ it counts as a vowel
15:43:05 <ais523> b_jonas: so now you can explain to me what a Hungarian "gy" is
15:43:26 <ais523> it sounds similar to "j" to a Brit, but it definitely isn't exactly the same
15:43:30 <b_jonas> ais523: the Hungarian "gy" is a plosive, it's like a "d" or a "g" but it's articulated somewhere between the two
15:43:49 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, I think I can pronounce that
15:43:52 <ais523> and it does sound a lot like "j"
15:43:54 <b_jonas> it's a plosive so it also has a hold and a release, but you put the tongue between the two
15:44:14 <b_jonas> ais523: but be careful, there's probably two or three different plosives like that, depending on where you put your tongue
15:44:39 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.madore.org/~david/misc/linguistic/ipa/ is a good resource, though it's not complete, so it doesn't tell everything
15:44:39 <ais523> I normally don't care that much about pronouncing foreign languages without an accent
15:44:44 <ais523> just, about pronouncing them intelligibly
15:44:59 <ais523> also, isn't David Madore an esolanger?
15:45:14 <ais523> inventor of Unlambda, apparently
15:48:05 <b_jonas> what that writeup doesn't explain is how the vowels work
15:48:14 <b_jonas> there's a blog entry somewhere that explains part of that, but not completely
15:48:26 <b_jonas> however, the consonants you asked about are in here
15:49:20 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, the point is, [ʒ] is a fricative, which means you can hold it forever, just like [z], but you put the tongue to a slightly different place.
15:50:33 <b_jonas> and if you're speaking some Slavic languages, you can produce not two but like four or five different fricative variants that are all velar (which means your tongue is pushed against the top of your mouth) like [z] and [ʒ]
15:50:35 <oren> ʒ is voiced version of english "sh"
15:50:50 <b_jonas> but I've no idea how to pronounced all the different versions of those, or how to hear the difference between them
15:51:26 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, I don't put the tongue to the top of my mouth for [z]
15:51:43 <ais523> the main differentce between it and [ʒ] is the position of my teeth
15:52:04 <b_jonas> ais523: you put it on the sides of the palate
15:52:17 <b_jonas> and argh, yes, it's not called "velar" but "palatal" or something
15:52:20 <ais523> I put it a bit behind my teeth
15:52:36 <b_jonas> or maybe it's called something different, let me look in that article I linked to
15:52:51 <b_jonas> that doesn't even mean anything
15:53:43 <shachaf> velar vs. uvular fricative is difficult for me to distinguish
15:54:16 <oren> alveolar versus dental is hard for me, uvular and velar are pretty easy, because uvular makes me choke
15:55:03 <b_jonas> whatever, all that stuff apart from labials ([p]), dentals ([t], [θ]), labiodentals ([f], [ɱ]) are somewhere inside your mouth, impossible to see where, and I can't follow which is where
15:55:07 <oren> or did you means distinguish upone hearing it
15:56:26 <b_jonas> labial is obvious, except at the start of words, because you have to close your lips for it. dental is obvious because if you do it wrong you spit salvia. labiodental is obvious because you have to put your teeth towards your lips while your lips aren't closed.
15:56:50 <b_jonas> the rest is complicated because yuo have to do stuff with your tongue that's invisible without X-rays or something
15:57:10 <b_jonas> mind you, people _have_ done x-ray photos for this for educational purposes
15:57:26 <b_jonas> yuo don't see it in everyday life
16:00:08 <b_jonas> most children learn the rest by reverse-engineering what they hear, but only up to the equivalence classes used in their particular language
16:02:17 <b_jonas> it's a bad system. phonetics should be taught open-source rather than everyone having to reverse-engineer compatible ways to produce the sounds
16:03:25 <b_jonas> and I mean, taught open source to most people, not just the few that have speaking or hearing disabilities
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16:06:34 <b_jonas> for reference, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-05-06.2138.voyelles-cardinales.html is the entry that tells part of the story about vowels
16:06:55 <tswett> `run bash -c $(sed 's//echo /' twolines)
16:06:56 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression \ bash: -c: option requires an argument
16:07:20 <tswett> `run bash -c $(sed -e 's//echo /' twolines)
16:07:21 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression \ bash: -c: option requires an argument
16:07:41 <tswett> I guess I don't understand how sed works.
16:07:59 <elliott> `run bash -c $(sed -e 's/^/echo /' twolines)
16:08:02 <b_jonas> HackEgo: try double quotes around the $()
16:08:08 <elliott> `run bash -c "$(sed -e 's/^/echo /' twolines)"
16:08:35 <b_jonas> `sed -e 's/^/echo /' twolines
16:08:36 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: unknown command: `''
16:08:41 <b_jonas> `run sed -e 's/^/echo /' twolines
16:09:30 <tswett> echo No output. > twolines
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17:01:33 <Melvar> < oren> but it is biguated by context – It’s actually ambi- + agere.
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18:36:38 <izabera> `run sed -e 's/^/echo /e' twolines
18:40:11 <boily> there's an “e” switch for sed regexps'?
18:41:21 <izabera> it basically passes the whole line to system()
18:41:33 <izabera> it's also a valid command in gnu sed
18:41:48 <izabera> `` sed e <<< 'echo hurr durr durr'
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18:48:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
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18:50:12 <HackEgo> bin/danddreclist \ bin/define \ bin/delquote \ bin/delvs \ bin/dis86 \ bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist
18:50:47 <boily> hmm... sounds ominous. what's a vs?
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19:13:13 <int-e> the code looks like an old version of https://github.com/L8D/delvs/ before it acquired socket operations
19:13:40 <int-e> (it's a brainfuck with some extra operations)
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19:42:17 <int-e> Or it would be if the code for skipping to the closing ] were correct.
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20:24:09 <oerjan> `` quote django | tail -3
20:24:10 <HackEgo> 884) <oerjan> `pastequotes django <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5404 <olsner> I'm still in all of them :( <olsner> someone else get quoted saying django please \ 1101) <metasepia> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst par
20:24:19 <oerjan> `` quote django | tail -2
20:24:20 <HackEgo> 1101) <metasepia> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes. \ 1115) <boily> I love django.
20:25:09 <boily> hellørjan. reminiscing about the djangiraffe madness?
20:25:13 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes
20:25:19 <HackEgo> 1236) <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes
20:25:55 <boily> olsner: apparently 87,5% was too low. enjoy your eternal acute djangoness hth
20:26:08 <oerjan> boily: belloily. just logreading. i think elliott may be evil hth
20:27:09 <oerjan> ...i should know that one.
20:27:27 <oerjan> olsner: 's ok just remember 8 is a lucky number
20:29:45 <boily> I don't believe in elliott's evilness. maybe he ranks at about 3 or 4 millioerjans, which is statistical background noise.
20:30:03 <FireFly> `` cat dog # this exists, right?
20:34:37 <boily> rep, as in lifting?
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20:45:36 <oerjan> @tell ais523 i think as and is work fine as is hth
20:45:58 * oerjan may or may not actually mean that
20:51:01 * boily is verily tempted to mapole oerjan hth
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20:53:48 <oerjan> @tell ais523 un- is a germanic prefix while an- is latin the labialization only applies to the latter hth
20:54:15 <oerjan> @tell ais523 no wait, greek.
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20:55:52 <oerjan> @tell ais523 except it doesn't because greek actually uses a- before consonants. latin in- works that way, though.
20:56:38 <oerjan> @tell ais523 also ambiguous doesn't actually have an am- prefix.
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21:00:36 <boily> @tell ais523 yes it does. consider biguity.
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21:02:52 <oerjan> @tell boily avocabulant isn't a word hth
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21:06:30 <oerjan> @tell ais523 looking at wiktionary, the amb- in ambassador is cognate to ambi- but the path it took is really convoluted.
21:06:52 <oerjan> @ask int-e did you fix the bug where lambdabot drops messages if you get too many twh
21:09:23 <int-e> I know of that bug.
21:10:03 <oerjan> oh you're still there. my attempt to force my sleeping rhythm later has failed in such a way that my mind thinks it's after midnight already.
21:10:04 * int-e is looking at the fallout from ghc-7.10.1
21:10:48 <int-e> its dependencies, mostly
21:16:08 <oerjan> int-e: well the bug hampers my ability to harass^Wadvise ais523 in absentia tdnh
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21:17:30 <int-e> patience, the bug has been there for years, surely it can wait a few weeks more
21:18:13 <int-e> now why does lambdabot depend (indirectly though) on shake...
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21:22:15 <int-e> oerjan: how do you feel about applying https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/79c694230952a8c560e7032b458b42f26661827a/patches/unlambda-0.1.3-ghc-7.10.patch to http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unlambda and making a new release?
21:23:33 <oerjan> i'm actually never been the maintainer for that package despite it descending from my code
21:24:06 <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
21:24:26 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
21:24:28 <HackEgo> 1237) <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
21:24:54 <int-e> oerjan: well there is no maintainer, so you can likely claim it for yourself easily :P
21:24:59 <oerjan> @tell boily you are right i'm more evil than elliott hth
21:25:17 <oerjan> int-e: except i don't have a github account hth
21:25:28 <elliott> oerjan: that quote should include me adding the previous one to the qdb, ideally
21:25:35 <elliott> in the spirit of django quotes being unfunny and confusing
21:25:38 <int-e> oerjan: the unlambda thing isn't on github anyway
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21:29:14 <oerjan> elliott: but then i'd have to actually find where you did that.
21:29:45 <elliott> oerjan: you can reconstruct it from the previous quote
21:32:27 <oerjan> `` quote django | tail -2
21:32:29 <HackEgo> 1236) <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes \ 1237) <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
21:34:06 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, mokus has an unlambda repository on github... I wonder...
21:35:07 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> `addquote <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes [...] <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
21:35:09 <HackEgo> 1237) <elliott> `addquote <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes [...] <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
21:35:15 <oerjan> `` quote django | tail -2
21:35:16 <HackEgo> 1236) <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes \ 1237) <elliott> `addquote <olsner> boily: thanks for getting quoted saying django btw, now I'm only in 87.5% of the django quotes [...] <olsner> ah, the inevitable result of mentioning django
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22:32:20 <oerjan> <Melvar> < oren> but it is biguated by context – It’s actually ambi- + agere. <-- oh. so _both_ parts of amgiguous and ambassador are cognates...
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22:34:20 <oerjan> @tell ais523 in fact Melvar mentioned the two parts "ambiguous" come from, and they're cognate to the two parts of "ambassador" :P
22:36:18 <oerjan> @tell ais523 essentially both words are originally from something meaning "moving around"
22:37:59 <oerjan> @tell ais523 oh and the -m- never was a -n-, as far back as proto-indoeuropean.
22:43:25 <oerjan> int-e: you'll tell ais523 what he missed, right?
22:44:15 <oren> Consider it biguated.
22:46:52 <oerjan> <oren> syn phony <-- actually συμφωνία has a μ in greek hth
22:47:40 <oren> Consider it membered
22:48:02 <oerjan> membered, for the first time
22:48:31 <oerjan> member. not even once.
22:49:31 <oren> why do people derstand these simple words?
22:50:41 <oerjan> because they're so azing
22:51:28 <Melvar> (re- + memor, under + stand)
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23:10:40 <zzo38> When trying to unzip on a Linux system I got "-bash: /net/home/black/bin/unzip: No such file or directory"
23:11:00 <zzo38> But now how am I going to fix it please?
23:14:47 <oerjan> aha, so that's why cpressey's webpage system is called chrysoberyl
23:15:11 <int-e> zzo38: huh, so what is that unzip file?
23:16:02 <int-e> zzo38: I would guess that the file exists, but perhaps is referring to an ld.so or shared library that doesn't.
23:16:52 <zzo38> That's what I thought
23:17:03 <zzo38> Since someone told me before thing like that is caused
23:17:21 <zzo38> I found where I can download the binaries, but how to figure out what libc is needed?
23:17:56 <int-e> I thought most linux distributions ship some kind of unzip
23:18:25 <int-e> other ideas ... does jar understand compressed zip files?
23:18:51 <fizzie> I think most .jars are compressed zip files.
23:19:10 <zzo38> Yes, .jar is also a ZIP archive
23:19:17 <fizzie> At least I've always assumed it's all DEFLATE.
23:19:24 <zzo38> Although the system I am using doesn't have jar either
23:19:25 <int-e> fizzie: I have not looked in over a decade; they used to be uncompressed.
23:19:37 <Melvar> Aren’t jars just zips with a certain metadata file or files inside?
23:19:55 <fizzie> Melvar: Yes, but you don't need to compress a zip.
23:20:00 <int-e> Melvar: the idea was to use jar to unpack the zip file.
23:20:03 <fizzie> (As in, there's a "store" compression method.)
23:20:55 <zzo38> It doesn't have 7-Zip either; I checked that too
23:21:24 <fizzie> int-e: FWIW, a randomly chosen .jar (/usr/share/tomcat7/lib/tomcat-util.jar) was compressed.
23:22:01 <zzo38> The computer I am trying to use is x86_64 GNU/Linux and 3.2.0-77-generic #114 Ubuntu
23:22:20 <Melvar> Does the compression method affect anything germane to the idea of using jar to decompress an arbitrary zip?
23:22:46 <fizzie> Melvar: If all .jar files are uncompressed, the jar tool might not support any compression methods.
23:22:59 <fizzie> Melvar: I mean, hypothetically. They're compressed, and it does.
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23:27:43 <int-e> oerjan: look at this wonderful hack: http://sprunge.us/VcXA?sh ;-)
23:30:49 <zzo38> Well, I tried one, and it didn't work
23:31:14 <int-e> what distribution are you using anyway?
23:31:46 <zzo38> It says "Linux beryllium 3.2.0-77-generic #114-Ubuntu SMP Tue Mar 10 17:26:03 UTC 2015 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux"
23:31:56 <zzo38> I have no administration access
23:32:32 <int-e> okay, but you can still fetch a .deb for unzip... which are ar files containing tgz files, the binary will be in data.tar.gz (or is it tgz...)
23:32:32 <zzo38> So, I cannot use the package manager.
23:33:12 <fizzie> And you can use dpkg-deb to unpack debs without having any special access.
23:33:13 <int-e> that should have a better chance of working than looking for random binaries
23:35:04 <int-e> then you have a working unzip binary?
23:36:34 <zzo38> I still don't know what to do though, yes I do have dpkg-deb but don't know where to find the package or what need to be done with it
23:37:45 <fizzie> For Ubuntu, you can get them at http://packages.ubuntu.com/
23:37:53 <fizzie> You can do "lsb_release -a" to figure out the Ubuntu version.
23:37:56 <int-e> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=unzip should find the .deb file; onoce unpacked it'll give you an unzip binary
23:38:32 <fizzie> int-e's link has list of versions of unzip for each release.
23:39:48 <fizzie> The page for a particular version has a "Download unzip" table for architectures, and Ubuntu's name for x86_86 is "amd64".
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23:40:34 <fizzie> And dpkg-deb's (rather poor) user interface is "dpkg-deb -x unzip.deb some-directory-name", to extract the package files into some-directory-name, and afterwards you should find a binary in some-directory-name/usr/bin/unzip.
23:42:34 <zzo38> Which one is the correct package though?
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23:45:03 <fizzie> If you mean which one out of "lucid", "precise", "trusty", "utopic", "vivid" (holy moly, are they up to V already?), lsb_release -a should have a 'codename' field matching one of them. Unless it's a no-longer-supported version of Ubuntu.
23:46:45 <zzo38> I didn't know lsb_release command
23:47:27 <int-e> the kernel version suggests 12.04
23:48:40 <zzo38> Yes, that's the response I got when I troed lsb_release -a
23:49:39 <fizzie> There are probably many ways to determine current Ubuntu version. lsb_release is a "standard" tool from the Linux Standard Base, so it can work on other distributions, too. I don't know how widely supported it is.
23:49:47 <int-e> (s/version/metadata/, the compilation time probably has the most information contents in there)
23:50:47 <int-e> works in debian (no surprise there), doesn't work in Arch. I wonder about Gentoo...
23:51:58 <int-e> cat /etc/issue is another idea
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23:57:36 <zzo38> OK I figured out how to unpack it now
23:58:31 <zzo38> I did it by: dpkg-deb --fsys-tarfile unzip_6.0-4ubuntu2.3_amd64.deb | tar xO ./usr/bin/unzip > ~/bin/unzip
23:59:21 <zzo38> (I used apt-get download to download the package first; the webpage says using aptitude and I looked at the man page so I figured out now)
00:02:54 <zzo38> Now I downloaded ZORKMID and tried to compile it, I got several warnings about unused return values. I didn't get those messages before.
00:03:52 <Sgeo> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/475057068/frog-fractions-2
00:04:25 <Sgeo> I... think the video player switched 'time left' and 'time'
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00:18:59 <FireFly> oh huh they managed to fund that?
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00:34:01 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a command in vi to load the text typed during one insert mode into the clipboard buffer? I want to learn what command it has
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00:34:58 <izabera> the closest thing i know is .
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01:39:07 <ProofTechnique> zzo38: The last thing you typed in insert ought to be in the ". register, then you should be able to put the contents into the clipboard with :let @+=@. or :let @*=@., I think
01:40:38 <ProofTechnique> Regarding "Do you know if there is a command in vi to load the text typed during one insert mode into the clipboard buffer? I want to learn what command it has"
02:11:10 <oren> is instant coffee stronger than espresso? I think it must be...
02:11:59 <pikhq> oren: Define "stronger".
02:12:33 <oren> pikhq: um, does it have more coffee stuff in it
02:13:09 <oren> ... "caffiene" that's the word
02:13:33 <oren> im kind of all jittery right now
02:14:37 <pikhq> Ah. Espresso has much more caffeine extracted from it, though it's only more per unit volume *not* more per serving.
02:14:54 <oren> Ohh.... so apparently the jar says one scoop of powder per mug, I assumed an equal amount of powder and boiling water
02:15:04 <pikhq> Oh christ, no wonder.
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02:15:27 <pikhq> Congrats, you've made quite concentrated coffee.
02:16:05 <oren> this has not been the best idea on a sunday night
02:16:11 <pikhq> Also, flavor-wise instant coffee is going to be inferior (just as a consequence of how it's made)... FYI.
02:17:52 <oren> ah. yeah although I got the boilig water using the espresso machine....
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02:18:47 <pikhq> So how much of the powder would you say you used?
02:19:04 <pikhq> Sounds like as though you drank the rough equivalent of a pot of coffee in a single cup?
02:19:37 <pikhq> ProofTechnique: Shouldn't be. Instant coffee shouldn't have much of anything to produce noticable grit.
02:20:02 <oren> the mug is about 500 ml, so... 250 ml of powder (although powder course thus less) and then boilig wter and str til it disolvd
02:20:17 <ProofTechnique> I would expect much more than recommended per unit of water would leave some behind, though.
02:20:42 <oren> it seems it didnt...
02:20:43 <pikhq> Not especially -- coffee is not usually a saturated solution.
02:21:05 <pikhq> Yeah, that's gonna be... maybe 500mg of caffeine?
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02:23:53 <elliott> 02:14:48 <oren> pikhq: um, does it have more coffee stuff in it
02:23:53 <elliott> 02:15:25 <oren> ... "caffiene" that's the word
02:23:59 <oren> hmm based on internet medical info it's near-imposible to overdose on coffee, so i'll just, um, try and do some work or someithing
02:24:09 <elliott> well you can overdose on caffeine but
02:24:13 <elliott> fairly easily even I think
02:24:18 <elliott> but, like, caffeine pills.
02:24:50 <elliott> "The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated to be 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass"
02:25:01 <elliott> as long as you weigh more than 3 kilograms you should be okay
02:25:13 <oren> I weight 154 punds
02:25:18 <pikhq> Yeah. Caffeine's safety isn't because it's nigh-impossible to overdose but rather because the effective dose is so massively lower than the dangerous dose.
02:26:01 <pikhq> Meaning that there's approximately no way you're going to actually *ingest* a dangerous dose without trying.
02:26:37 <pikhq> Kinda like you'd have one hell of a time hitting the LD50 of LSD.
02:28:57 <oren> hmm 500ml coffee weight aprox 0.5 kg means I am now 1/140th made of coffee
02:30:45 <oren> because 154 pund = 70kg almost exacly
02:32:40 <pikhq> "pund" = Scandinavian approximation of .5kg?
02:33:17 * pikhq does greatly appreciate that treatment of the traditional units: round 'em and use 'em as clean approximations of the metric units.
02:33:21 <oren> pund is me trying to type pound
02:34:15 <int-e> oerjan: that @messages bug will be fixed the next time I rebuild lambdabot (which will happen when ghc-7.10.1 gets released)
02:34:17 <elliott> pund is a unit of how much you weight
02:34:18 <pikhq> So you actually mean avoirdupois pounds. k.
02:35:19 <oren> interestingly my puls does not appear to have risen. sys 127 dia 80 pulse 66
02:35:32 <oren> which is abput avergae for me
02:35:59 <pikhq> I guess you're mostly getting the neurological effects.
02:37:12 * oren wonders wether most peple have blodd presure meters in their houses
02:38:17 <izabera> do you guys know what's a pangram?
02:38:32 <oren> a thing with all letters in it
02:38:40 <int-e> the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
02:38:41 <izabera> i want an email that's a pangram
02:39:11 <izabera> help me find something that makes sense and doesn't have many repeated letters and ends in @gmail.com
02:42:04 <izabera> doesn't have >>many<< repeated letters
02:42:58 <izabera> less than 10 repeated letters would be a good start, i guess
02:47:23 <oren> this is a set cover problem i thing
02:48:10 <oren> one of kaprs npc problems
02:48:54 <oren> *Karp's NP-complete porblems
02:49:04 <izabera> hey i didn't ask for a good solution in the general case :P
02:50:14 <oren> Hmm possibly we can generate random pangrams using dict/words and then pick out good ones?
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02:50:59 <izabera> yeah but it's kinda hard...
02:51:24 <izabera> first of all, it's hard to make meaningful sentences out of that list
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02:52:00 <Zefphex> Replace oerjans name with Onii-Chan
02:53:03 -!- oren has changed nick to Ourin-kun.
02:54:36 <Ourin-kun> izabera wanted one thats a pangram
02:55:12 <izabera> Ourin-kun: :\ that doesn't make much sense
02:55:45 <izabera> i thought it was some kind of file system
02:56:11 <Ourin-kun> lol someone should make a steganogarphic file system called that
02:56:17 <Zefphex> it happens to be a Japanese song that I cannot understand but I find pleasing to listen to because the language is p. good
02:56:47 <Zefphex> Would never speak it tho i'd go for my ancesteral language that is dying
02:58:04 <izabera> i can say spaghetti in italian
02:58:25 <Ourin-kun> I just realized I am less than 4 weeks away from end of my university degree
02:58:29 <ProofTechnique> I couldn't come up with anything for those, and gmail let's you get away with that + stuff
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02:59:13 <Zefphex> http://www.dunedinit.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Too_many_toolbars-1024x837-1.jpg
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02:59:57 <ProofTechnique> It's obviously a reference to this picture: http://twitpic.com/jkpqw
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03:00:09 <Zefphex> my gmail usernames are very terrible
03:00:56 <Ourin-sempai> this song i'm listening to is great, but for no apparent reson it begins with a clip of the Apollo 8 genesis reading
03:02:28 <Ourin-sempai> the song has nothing to do with apollo 8 or the bible... lol wut
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03:05:18 <Ourin-senpai> Hmm, iirc at least one romanization scheme uses m when ン changes before a p,b, or m kana
03:05:45 <Zefphex> Apparently according to the internet Mami from madoka magika Is the waifu of Hitler
03:06:13 <Zefphex> What are you listening to Senpai?
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03:07:34 <Zefphex> How do you make a multi-dimensional fluid Quadrangle
03:11:33 <Ourin-senpai> of course you need to define the dimensions of the quadrangle as #defines of X Y Z
03:12:03 <Zefphex> Well I cant say triangle with 4 sides
03:12:12 <Zefphex> Then its not a triangle nor a square
03:12:36 <Zefphex> No it doesn't look like that
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03:14:24 <int-e> oh ironically it's called by its sides: quadrilateral
03:15:43 <int-e> ok, google says quadrangle is more common... but it sounds less familiar to me. and I should sleep. good night.
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03:17:58 <Zefphex> I want to donate my pipe organs to my organs before I die please
03:21:02 <Zefphex> Which Senpai am I talking about
03:29:48 <Ourin-senpai> apparently the girl who rejected me for prom in HS is now at York and engaging in Enjokousai for grades
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03:33:00 <oerjan> `addquote <oren> is instant coffee stronger than espresso? I think it must be... [...] <oren> Ohh.... so apparently the jar says one scoop of powder per mug, I assumed an equal amount of powder and boiling water
03:33:02 <HackEgo> 1238) <oren> is instant coffee stronger than espresso? I think it must be... [...] <oren> Ohh.... so apparently the jar says one scoop of powder per mug, I assumed an equal amount of powder and boiling water
03:43:49 <Ourin-senpai> #define box(x) ({typeof(x) *_xptr=malloc(sizeof(*_xptr));*xptr=(x);xptr;})
03:44:29 <Zefphex> Where should I run a string like that
03:44:37 <Ourin-senpai> #define box(x) ({typeof(x) *_xptr=malloc(sizeof(*_xptr));*_xptr=(x);_xptr;})
03:44:46 <zzo38> Those are some possibilities of C preprocessor used with GNU extensions
03:45:06 <oerjan> <pikhq> "pund" = Scandinavian approximation of .5kg? <-- i can't speak for swedish and danish, but in norwegian that's not a unit still in actual use, unlike "mil".
03:45:32 <oerjan> (hi from backscroll. i took a 3 hour nap.)
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03:48:26 <oerjan> <* oren wonders wether most peple have blodd presure meters in their houses <-- i don't hth
03:48:28 <Zefphex> Sleeping to much cuts your life expectancy up
03:49:03 <ProofTechnique> Though I suppose if you just take a 3 hour nap two or three times a day, it's probably fine.
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03:51:21 <Zefphex> Give me a complex lua string
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04:00:45 <oerjan> <izabera> i can say spaghetti in italian <-- hey i had you down as an _actual_ italian after that benvenuto thing :(
04:01:31 <oerjan> please don't sabotage my quest to rudely classify all #esotericians
04:02:49 <Ourin-senpai> into the water, into the truth, in your reflection, he lives in you
04:05:55 <elliott> I can say spaghetti in english!
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04:16:38 * oerjan finally reaches his own messages in the backscroll
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04:25:49 <oerjan> <Zefphex> Sleeping to much cuts your life expectancy up <-- well it was to compensate for getting up too early in the evening hth
04:28:02 * oerjan reaches the end of backscroll
04:28:13 <oerjan> thank you, it's been a wild ride
04:29:06 <Zefphex> You cant be breaking your sleep schedule like dat
04:29:23 <oerjan> am i a red oni or a blue oni?
04:31:14 <oerjan> Zefphex: but if i don't break it i won't be awake for my dentist checkup!
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04:32:14 <oerjan> also your insistence on "normalcy" only gets you classified as someone unfit to give me advice hth
04:33:02 <Zefphex> So you like having latex fingers lightly carress your mouth flesh
04:33:18 <oerjan> about once a year, yes.
04:33:42 <oerjan> as long as the outcome is "this looks good"
04:34:20 <vodkode_> my dentist is a 74 year old holocaust survivor from europe who tells me to "shuttup and take the pain you spoiled brat" and stuff like that, despite me being in my 30's
04:34:27 <zzo38> Are you a oni at all? Or one of a different color than red and blue (such as white and black)?
04:35:34 <Zefphex> My dentist is a Vietnamese veteran and some times has ptsd and flips out and runs off
04:35:44 <Zefphex> But atleast my teeth are clean
04:36:07 <vodkode_> you got me beat, yours is younger and prob more crazy
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04:37:46 <zzo38> There is other possible use of typeof too, possibly to combine with zero length arrays
04:38:37 <oerjan> zzo38: pretty sure i don't fit either hth
04:39:52 <zzo38> You could also make combine sizeof with zero length arrays, to make "compile time type identification"; it doesn't waste memory like run time type identification would do
04:44:01 <Ourin-senpai> My dentist is a childhood friend of my grandmother.
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04:48:25 <zzo38> There are possibility in C to make structures that never have any variables or anything else of that type.
04:48:43 <zzo38> One reason I have done it is to make sizeof assertions, although there are other possibilities too
04:48:57 <oerjan> i don't know what my dentist is except a dentist.
04:49:18 <oerjan> and female, most of the time.
04:49:26 <oerjan> well also white, i guess.
04:49:59 <zzo38> Do you know many languages she can speak?
04:50:44 <oerjan> also she's part of a team office but i seem to be getting the same one these days.
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05:03:55 <Sgeo> Was Tailsteak a Christian during 1/0?
05:04:32 <Sgeo> I mean, I sort of assumed so, but Leftover Soup keeps making me think he deconverted earlier than that, for some reason
05:04:51 <Sgeo> Or... actually I guess I don't know his current beliefs, just that they're less Creationy
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05:14:02 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Ore-sama.
05:14:30 <Ore-sama> after reading a bit in wikipedia, i have concluded this is clearly the right way to japanify my name hth
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05:20:16 <zzo38> I don't know what is "right way" but I make my name in Japanese in my own way; my given name with katakana and family name with kanji
05:21:39 <oerjan> when your father (iirc) changed his surname, did he keep the meaning? so they would be the same kanji...
05:22:16 <Ourin-senpai> my name has an ambiguous spelling and pronounciation in english.
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05:23:18 <zzo38> oerjan: Not as far as I know, but that was before I was born.
05:23:32 <zzo38> So I don't use my father's old surname.
05:24:23 <zzo38> But the kanji I use might not be the intended meaning anyways; he has said the intended meaning might be "Blacksmith" instead of "Black"; whether or not this is true, I have always used the kanji for "black" before and therefore don't need to change it.
05:25:02 <pikhq> Is your surname Black?
05:25:36 <zzo38> I thought you know that already?
05:25:39 <pikhq> Yeah, that's probably "blacksmith".
05:25:42 * oerjan is curious what it was before
05:25:50 <oerjan> just in case it's not obvious :P
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05:26:10 <zzo38> Well, I am not going to tell you what it was before (just in case he doesn't want to tell you, I also won't)
05:26:25 <Ourin-senpai> 'orin' or 'oren' or possibly 'warren' it was never clear to me during my childhood
05:26:31 <shachaf> pikhq: whoa, happy pikhq++
05:26:54 <pikhq> shachaf: How long have you been waiting for that?
05:27:26 <shachaf> I don't know, how long should I have been waiting?
05:27:48 <pikhq> Since March 24 2014. Of course.
05:28:09 <Ourin-senpai> Is there a standard way to katakana-ize an /ə/
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05:34:02 <zzo38> I don't know, but, you can try to either look at other same name see how it was done before, or you can make it up yourself in your own way since it is your own name anyways, or you can ask some people who are Japanese; see there is three possibility
05:40:24 <Ourin-senpai> Hmm, looks like オリン or オーリン (since my name has stress on the O) would some closes
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05:41:41 <coppro> Ourin-senpai: never refer to yourself with an honourifig
05:42:03 <Ourin-senpai> my last name has a well known standard transliteration of ワトソン
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05:42:22 <coppro> also I was discussing with a friend, my name is probably シャンハウテ, though there may be more standard transliterations
05:42:33 <pikhq> Mine has a well known but somewhat weird transliteration of "uusuta".
05:43:30 <coppro> apparently "Sean" is actually transliterated as ショーン
05:43:52 <coppro> I meant to put a long vowel in before, but I'm intrigued that o was preferred to a
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05:44:33 <o-rin> aw is closer to o than a
05:44:39 <shachaf> I imagine my name is more difficult to transliterate into Japanese than into English.
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05:45:15 <pikhq> Japanese has a real lack of phonemes.
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05:48:08 <o-rin> well, for final consonants they seem to add -u sylable, except for t and d which for some reason become "to" and "do"
05:48:42 <o-rin> luckily my name has only final n in it
05:48:51 <coppro> the reason -u usually gets added is because when it appears word-final it is often devoiced
05:48:57 <coppro> which makes it almost inaudible
05:49:36 <coppro> but sometimes that sounds bad or awkward, or due to the pitch used you can't devoice, so you get the o instead
05:49:37 <o-rin> oh, you couldn't use tu or du because there isn't them
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05:53:11 <o-rin> オーリン・ワトソン yeah that should be sufficient
05:56:51 <o-rin> I wonder if that looks good on a resume
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06:03:58 <Sgeo> I have seen IE do things properrly that other browsers get wrong
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06:04:16 <zzo38> It is certainly possible
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06:04:23 <zzo38> Although IE does some things wrong too
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06:25:47 <zzo38> I was making a pair of duel deck of Magic: the Gathering for Human Supremacy Corporation vs Unhuman Alliance. I put a few unofficial cards (including the one called "Human Supremacy Corporation"). Also probably is not finish yet
06:33:06 <zzo38> Any player can cause 1 damage to each non-Human creature.
06:33:24 <zzo38> To be more specific it is:
06:33:48 <zzo38> Human Supremacy Corporation {WWBB} Legendary Enchantment :: At the beginning of each upkeep, ~ deals 1 damage to each untapped non-Human creature. :: {4}, Discard a card: Deals 1 damage to target non-Human creature. Any player may activate this ability.
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06:51:07 <zzo38> If you have other suggest to add a card I can do that too; I don't know all of the official cards
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07:22:05 <coppro> o-rin: you should play riichi with me
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07:38:37 <o-rin> where do I play it
07:40:08 <coppro> tenhou, but you probably should learn first
07:40:14 <coppro> it's not really easy to learn and all the guides suck
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07:53:10 <o-rin> the TA's are still on strike
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07:53:25 <o-rin> my work is NEVER going to be marked!!!
07:55:19 <o-rin> they rejected the deal with the university AGAIN
08:00:41 <o-rin> AAAAAAA I handed in my neural network that recognizes handwritten numbers 3 weeks ago!!!
08:02:31 <o-rin> .... actually I'd better not, they said they'd accept late submissions and they'd think I cheated
08:03:01 <o-rin> hmm I'll take a screenshot
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08:06:43 <o-rin> http://ctrlv.in/522625 <-- early training
08:07:55 <o-rin> http://ctrlv.in/522626 <-- late in training. the 8 gets 1 and the other digits get 0 signal... hell yeah
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08:10:41 <o-rin> http://ctrlv.in/522630 one more screenshot. howzat?
08:12:36 <o-rin> It's interesting just how well a neural network works for these tasks
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08:53:17 <Jafet> I wonder how many terabytes of models have been created for the MNIST digits to date.
09:05:11 <o-rin> if everyone in my class did it, then at least a gig right there
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09:06:11 <o-rin> some people have been slacking because they expect the strike to go on till end of term
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10:35:37 <pizearke> I was a big combinatory logic enthusiast a few years back
10:35:56 <pizearke> now I'm a musician and I thought I'd get in touch with my old self by doing some music programming :3
10:36:08 <slereah> Combinatory logic is quite neat
10:36:21 <slereah> Also probably one of the oldest Turing complete system
10:36:30 <pizearke> I was really fascinated with how much you could do with just s and k
10:36:33 <slereah> Older than the Turing machine and lambda calculus!
10:36:44 <slereah> Possibly older than -recursive functions?
10:36:46 <pizearke> combinatory logic is pretty much just lambda anyway
10:37:34 <slereah> Nobody really cared about it back then
10:37:50 <slereah> But the Schonfinkel paper is from like... 24?
10:38:02 <AndoDaan> There's http://p-nand-q.com/programming/languages/gplz/gertrude.html and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Velato for musical esolangs.
10:38:27 <pizearke> I'm sure those are awesome though
10:39:05 <slereah> "The original inventor of combinatory logic, Moses Schnfinkel, published nothing on combinatory logic after his original 1924 paper. Haskell Curry rediscovered the combinators while working as an instructor at Princeton University in late 1927.[3] In the latter 1930s, Alonzo Church and his students at Princeton invented a rival formalism for functional abstraction, the lambda calculus, which proved more popular than combinatory logic. "
10:39:09 <AndoDaan> Not as awesome as the potential one you're working on.
10:39:13 <slereah> It was invented TWICE before lambda calculus
10:40:13 <pizearke> I had no idea haskell curry was from the 20's :O
10:40:40 <pizearke> the one I'm working on looks more like assembly
10:41:41 <pizearke> I wrote down some ideas for what the instructions would be and it came out to exactly 16 different instructions
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11:04:05 <slereah> I guess it depends on their arguments
11:04:12 <pizearke> yeah it's hard to work with just a nibble
11:04:20 <pizearke> because some of them don't have operators
11:05:03 <pizearke> also I'm really rusty right now
11:06:11 <pizearke> I think some of them not having operands wouldn't be a problem if they were byte instructions
11:14:03 <slereah> I guess it depends how many different operands the ones with an argument need
11:18:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 15m 24s ago: avocabulant isn't a word hth
11:18:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 53m 18s ago: you are right i'm more evil than elliott hth
11:18:33 <boily> @tell oerjan I know.
11:18:38 <boily> @tell orejan I know.
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11:19:03 <slereah> Avocabulant is a perfectly cromulant word
11:20:26 <pizearke> the ones with an operand all only have one
11:20:57 <slereah> Well if you only have 16 different values for each operand max, that would work out nicely
11:21:22 <pizearke> I need more bits than that amigo
11:21:28 <slereah> Otherwise either pad to a byte or make variable length instructions
11:21:44 <pizearke> I'm not doing variable length instructions
11:21:54 <pizearke> that's too inefficient with nibbled
11:22:21 <slereah> That way you can add even more instructions if you feel like it!
11:22:56 <pizearke> I'm going to make an end of file character, too
11:23:11 <slereah> Maybe a set of instructions that are the same, except this time it's beatboxing???
11:23:38 <pizearke> but one time I tried making a spoken language that was entirely beatboxing
11:23:42 <slereah> Is it Turing complete music
11:24:04 <pizearke> it's not even music. more like just sound
11:24:58 <pizearke> do you want to hear what I have so far?
11:25:13 <pizearke> it's not very good, but it's interesting
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13:15:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MGIFOS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42172&oldid=31604 * SuperJedi224 * (+485)
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13:19:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MGIFOS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42173&oldid=42172 * SuperJedi224 * (+13)
13:20:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MGIFOS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42174&oldid=42173 * SuperJedi224 * (-20)
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14:29:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42175&oldid=42168 * Ypnypn * (+0)
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15:06:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42176&oldid=42175 * Ypnypn * (+1)
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16:11:24 <tswett> o-rin: I've heard Japanese people say "ka" using exactly the same vowel I use in the word "Sean".
16:11:31 <tswett> But that's because I have a weird accent.
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16:19:01 <lambdabot> LOWI 231550Z 07010KT 9999 FEW060 15/03 Q1010 R08/1///95 NOSIG
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16:42:29 <o-rin> tswett: that's some dope accent dawg
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17:05:57 <lambdabot> CYYZ 231700Z 36007KT 330V060 15SM SCT230 M06/M19 A3039 RMK CI4 SLP300
17:06:46 <o-rin> clear and cold, my favorite weather
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17:06:55 <coppro> o-rin: wait, you're in YYZ?
17:08:41 <o-rin> my sleep schedule is out of whack
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17:20:09 <lambdabot> EGNT 231650Z 28008KT 9999 SCT040 10/02 Q1010
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19:07:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kasran * New user account
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19:20:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42177&oldid=41933 * Kasran * (+67) /* Quine */ added a short quine
19:23:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42178&oldid=42177 * Kasran * (+121) /* Examples */ added a ROT13 encoder/decoder
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19:35:55 <g2watson> is there a better terminal program for windows than putty?
19:37:11 <g2watson> hmm, maybe wrong thing... um, a better ssh program.
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19:43:53 <ProofTechnique> I think everything else depends on cygwin or msys, but then you've got your choice :D
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19:46:56 <elliott> PuTTY is pretty good but you could use, like, Cygwin + urxvt + ssh.
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20:16:05 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, same one. Sean, lawn, prawn, dog, fog, wash, floss, broth.
20:16:36 <tswett> But not clock, mock, pop, blotch, fossil, ocelot.
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20:20:08 <g2watson> tswett: weird, I rhyme all those words, but with a sound much closer to typical Japanese o than a
20:20:53 <g2watson> how does the sound in dog differ from pop?
20:22:29 <tswett> By being back instead of front.
20:23:05 <tswett> I think that's the case for, like, at least 90% of English speakers in any given country.
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20:31:07 <g2watson> hmm, my dialect of english has a total of only 13 vowels...
20:32:19 <g2watson> bat bate bet beet bit bite bot boat but beaut boot book bird
20:33:15 <g2watson> hmm no wait beaut is sort of like ee + oo
20:39:55 <g2watson> wikipedia claims that among palm lot cloth and thought, I should pronounce some differnetly, but I don't
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20:44:57 <g2watson> Maybe counting vowels is actually harder than counting the possible vowel sequences
20:46:37 <g2watson> palm lot cloth and thought still all have the same vowel, I don't get thet
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20:53:39 <zzo38> I have some book about philosophy, including mirror problem, thinking about Santa Claus, box of answering question in Chinese (even though the people who work there don't know any Chinese), free beer for ten cents, free will, interpretation of laws, etc
20:55:32 <shachaf> zzo38: I have some book about some of those things too.
20:56:31 <g2watson> I have a least 3 books about those things, but I dodn't read it
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20:59:06 <zzo38> Why do you make your name always wrong again?
20:59:11 <orin> why does irssi use your local username as default nick
20:59:24 <elliott> are you sure you're not a kasha
21:00:03 <zzo38> Also mention rules for shadows. They list two rules of shadows which they call so obviously correct, but to me both rules look to be so obviously wrong
21:00:46 <orin> elliott: a boild buckwheat?
21:01:07 <elliott> it's just another rin joke.
21:01:20 <elliott> but yes, sure, boiled buckwheat
21:02:42 <orin> 'g2watson' means "CS specialist program account for mr. Watson"
21:03:07 <zzo38> Rules give are: The shadow doesn't cast if the light isn't shining on the object, and the shadow doesn't cast if there is another object in between for casting the shadow on instead.
21:03:21 <zzo38> To me, both are clearly wrong, although to them they are both clearly correct.
21:03:52 <orin> shadows don't exist
21:04:51 <orin> light shining around edge of object exists, shadow is perception of shape based on lack of light
21:06:56 <orin> but what is the problem for them with their rules?
21:07:59 <zzo38> They do cite a problem, although it was wrong to me even before that. The problem they cite is in case you hold coffee in front of you, one piece of the shape of shadow is shape of you but is through the coffee. Who casts the shadow?
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21:11:12 <orin> well the light that would hit the ground if you weren't there, that light would need to pass thorugh both you and the coffee, so yeah
21:13:47 <orin> but then it seems kind of pointless to say that a lack of light belongs to a particular object, i mean it is,um, a nonexistent thing by definition
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21:34:37 <fizzie> A thing: http://dominic-mulligan.co.uk/?page_id=148
21:39:29 <fizzie> Probably not. I just got an email (on some list), and it sounded mildly relevant here.
21:40:50 <Taneb> ...is there a North of England Regional Programming Language Seminar?
21:41:13 <paul2520> how about a Midwestern United States Regional PLS?
21:42:39 <Taneb> I'd love to go to that, but like most of the south of England is difficult for someone like me who flits between Northumberland and York
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22:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42179&oldid=42178 * Kasran * (-188) removed programs I added earlier, as they will probably crash or not work right in CCBI
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22:16:42 <Sgeo> Happy pikhqday
22:16:56 <Sgeo> A day of high quality pik
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22:28:59 <pikhq> The pik is the highest of q.
22:29:16 * pikhq shall attempt not to asplode
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23:06:33 <Zefphex> I dare you to tell me the plot of a video game you've never played before. by the the cd on a microscope and the the pits
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23:07:25 <ais523> I know a lot of the plots of video games I've never played, but that's mostly via watching other people play them
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23:12:38 <Zefphex> Oh man if only I wasn't a fragmentation of someone's mental state because they know how to program and I just feel dumb being here
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23:14:36 <ais523> you could fix that by learning to program, perhaps?
23:14:45 <ais523> pick a language that nobody else can program in either
23:14:47 <ais523> so that nobody has a head start
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00:48:02 <boily> ProofTechellonique!
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01:13:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kasran]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42180 * Kasran * (+71) hello!
01:27:18 <orin> god dammit. these ads on youtube music videos that are, themselves, music videos
01:28:56 <ais523> bonus points if two music videos have each other as ads?
01:29:00 * boily hands some AdBlock potions to orin
01:29:14 <boily> hellorin. aren't you oren usually?
01:29:34 <ais523> I assume some people archive ads on YouTube
01:29:49 <ais523> perhaps some day someone will have the ad for a video be the same as the video itself
01:30:21 <orin> boily: yah, my passport says "oren" but sometimes I spell it other ways
01:30:32 <Andodaan> The realization is that the encapsulating music video is really an ad.
01:31:29 <orin> I would'nt mind so much if the two musics were the same genre
01:32:19 <Kasran> chiptune demo video opening with bruno mars' new single
01:32:21 <orin> which shawn mendes and BABYMETAL are not, at all
01:32:23 <ais523> my passport doesn't say "ais523" :-(
01:32:53 <boily> my has a boily in there ^^
01:33:24 <boily> orin: the only way to get babymetal out of my mind is some heavy touhou remixes.
01:35:36 <orin> adadadadadada dokkyu! zokkyu dokkyu zokkyu dokkyu yada yada yada neva neva neva!
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01:36:26 * boily mapoles orin with a swift swing
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01:37:19 <boily> Kasran: IOSYS usually does the job for me, but I do enjoy some Alstroemeria. what are your favourite circles?
01:39:08 <orin> shinra bansho, hatunetu-miko's, IRON ATTACK!
01:39:26 <Kasran> I'm not super into Touhou music, so I'm not sure I'd be able to pick out any favorites. I do like what I've heard from Crow's Claw, though.
01:40:02 <boily> orin: heh! listening to hatsunetsu at this moment right now :D ♪
01:40:37 <boily> Kasran: you should try Demetori, particularly their later albums. some epic rocking in them.
01:41:24 <Kasran> bleh!!!! And alright, I'll take a look, thanks.
01:42:16 <orin> I also like anything from Odyssey Music/T. Stebbins/Eurobeat Brony/ whatever other pseudonyms he has
01:43:45 <orin> An amazing male vocalist who does songs in a whole bunch of fandoms
01:44:10 <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LpGkyR3hfI
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01:51:12 <orin> Apparently he is also named Ken Blast and also mortimer Mortimer
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01:53:56 <oren> no that was a result of a slow connection
01:54:48 <oren> by convention Eurobeat song and artist names are limited to numbers and uppercase letters. No idea why
01:57:33 <oren> A typical song listing is of the form "PRETTY GIRL ROCK / SPEEDMASTER feat CINDY"
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02:02:03 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house.
02:02:28 <oren> hes asleep already
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02:40:20 <zzo38> I was reading something David Sirlin wrote recently, and now I can see that he even designed a Magic: the Gathering card.
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03:47:16 <oren> Screw this crap. I'm making my own image editor
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03:49:58 <coppro> oren: what is this crap?
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03:51:13 <oren> coppro: mtpaint
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03:55:44 <oren> I'ma make a better one. with scripting. and whores
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03:58:52 <oren> specifically, I want to be able to select a quadrilateral out of the image and deform it into another quadrilateral
04:00:36 <ais523> oren: are they both parallelograms?
04:01:35 <oren> they are roughly trapezoids
04:04:43 <ais523> affine translation might still work, on that data, but it's far from guaranteed
04:04:47 <ais523> err, affine transformation
04:08:28 <coppro> the way I'd do it is by taking the diagonals to anchor your coordinate system, and define the transformation in terms of that. Not sure if it's linear
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05:15:53 <fizzie> Image processing tools generally call that a "perspective" transformation.
05:16:57 <ais523> assuming the trapezia are isoceles and the two parallel sides are horizontal, I've also seen it called "keystone"
05:18:30 <fizzie> http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/distorts/#perspective etc.
05:19:42 <fizzie> (I've only seen the "keystone" term in a projector context.)
05:20:06 <ais523> haha, POSIX defines the syntax of yacc using a yacc grammar
05:20:16 <ais523> thus leading to a standard in need of bootstrapping
05:20:57 <ais523> YAELI: a language for which the syntax of yacc is an interpreter for that language, ideally in as non-contrived a way as possible
05:22:24 <pikhq> POSIX defines all of its syntax using a yacc grammar.
05:23:19 <ais523> that doesn't make it any less of a circular definition
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06:47:07 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot and zemhill got k-lined...
06:47:17 <lambdabot> boily said 19h 28m 43s ago: I know.
06:47:31 <ais523> I'm going to assume that was in-context
06:47:40 <ais523> but it's much less than a year, so no new record
06:48:20 <ais523> <oerjan> fizzie: fungot and zemhill got k-lined... <boily> I know
06:48:39 <HackEgo> 497) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
06:48:46 <ais523> and that's the previous record
06:49:02 <ais523> and still the current record
06:50:14 <oerjan> >25 years without a cavity, and BAM! 5 in one year ;_;
06:50:36 <ais523> have you changed diet?
06:50:39 <oerjan> and i have no one to blame but my shrinks
06:51:00 <ais523> I'd better not give too much advice, though, or you might turn into Sgeo
06:51:27 <oerjan> ais523: more chocolate, less brushing teeth, pretty obvious cause really
06:51:52 <ais523> I actually gave up chocolate accidentally in march last year (possibly even february)
06:51:54 <ais523> and decided to just run with it
06:52:50 <oerjan> i started eating chocolate in the middle of the night because it seemed to help with my foot cramps...
06:53:17 <oerjan> but i had already done that a year ago, when the checkup was clean
06:53:38 <oerjan> well maybe not as much
06:54:42 <oerjan> also, i'm unlikely to become like Sgeo, my way is to ignore all advice completely hth
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07:07:55 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
07:08:26 <oerjan> someone didn't have unicode set up properly
07:11:38 <HackEgo> [U+1D350 TETRAGRAM FOR FAILURE]
07:12:31 <oerjan> pretty much the same thing, there
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07:13:41 <oerjan> oh wait it's not supposed to look the same
07:13:53 <oerjan> pretty much a failure, then.
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07:20:43 <HackEgo> [U+8CA0 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8CA0]
07:21:29 <oren> see this is stupid. why does the tetragram have its iching meaning in it but the kanji has a stupid hex number
07:22:00 <oerjan> i've been assuming it's because the kanji's meaning might depend on language
07:22:30 <oren> not to such an extent...
07:22:56 <oerjan> i guess it's because they hate humans, then
07:23:52 <oren> damned racists
07:24:15 <oerjan> technically that's speciesist hth
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07:43:25 <oerjan> <orin> why does irssi use your local username as default nick <-- because you haven't saved your nick setting?
07:44:05 <oerjan> actually i think that's part of the server setting
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07:45:37 <oerjan> hm nick isn't listed as an argument on permanent servers
07:48:40 <oerjan> well it's in .irssi/config, anyway
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08:55:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42181&oldid=32144 * 212.13.18.233 * (+108) Added php implementation on github
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09:21:52 <izabera> aren't you tired of those stupid console programs that don't have a line editing library?
09:22:19 <izabera> and you press the arrows and get ^[[A ^[[B
09:23:40 <izabera> well, fear no more! https://github.com/izabera/bin/blob/master/rrlwrap
09:24:41 <izabera> now you can just run rrlwrap otherprogram and the power of readline will be yours
09:28:23 <ais523> izabera: how does that differ featurewise from ledit, another program that does the same thing?
09:28:39 <izabera> first of all, the author is much sexier
09:29:13 <izabera> second, the author didn't know ledit
09:29:37 <izabera> the author did know rlwrap but it was a fun experiment anyway
09:29:37 <ais523> author sexiness has never been a reason to choose between programs
09:29:44 <ais523> otoh, the author of ledit didn't know of rrlwrap either
09:29:49 <ais523> so that condition's kind-of a wash
09:31:03 <izabera> this has the added bonus of being less than 100 lines long \o/
09:31:30 <ais523> it's not entirely a bot
09:31:36 <ais523> it's a human and bot using the same account
09:31:40 <oerjan> ooh myndzi is working properly again
09:31:42 <ais523> which can get confusing when they're both speaking
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09:34:15 <izabera> third reason: this is the only important part of my code and it works on its own
09:35:04 <ais523> it's written in shellscript?
09:37:38 <oerjan> i'd ^celebrate but someone killed fungot
09:38:30 <ais523> why would fungot be klined?
09:39:06 <ais523> well I assume they're on the same connection
09:39:08 <ais523> so that makes more sense
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10:43:31 <fizzie> And yes, they're connecting from the same place.
10:44:15 <fizzie> "You are banned from this server- Spam is not allowed on freenode. Please contact kline@freenode.net if you think this kline has been set in error."
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10:45:44 <fizzie> Well, it seems to have been temporary.
10:55:51 <Jafet> Maybe fungot needed to make some urgent international funds transfers.
10:55:51 <fungot> Jafet: so what of it doesn't really work
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10:58:40 <boily> fungot: stop bein sentient.
10:58:40 <fungot> boily: yeah, i didn't know much
10:58:45 <fungot> boily: ' s if you can implement call/ cc k receiver) ( receiver ( lambda ( x)
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13:39:00 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
13:40:57 <b_jonas> that looks like Standard ML
13:42:07 <Taneb> That was my assumption
13:42:13 <HackEgo> /j汣!ŕElDP3A5BJ.Uj%{c. ]4IӍjmVA0"SFDI1b}aVMd[⁉9.VfAp(/#ͷJcXlzՈɊe:;qn \ ȪJo](*BE}Io,;Hy_X@;sݿ!urnk!00`ZD(T⩟ЧCO_J0ۻ
13:43:30 <Taneb> One day I am going to be all boring and switch to the three-letter nick I have registered that is just my initials
13:46:13 <Taneb> I am kind of glad all 4 of those are vaguely pronouncable
13:46:47 <FireFly> Leading ŋ is kinda tricky to pronounce
13:47:28 <Taneb> FireFly, I manage it somehow
13:48:50 <b_jonas> fungot, how can a video encoder use two gigabytes of memory?
13:48:50 <fungot> b_jonas: ( inherently)? because i don't know
13:49:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:49:16 <fungot> b_jonas: well it tastes bad. they should know better then the movie list two friends of mine and i are in completely different places in the template to be nothing in the rules
13:49:58 <Taneb> I know someone who runs a fungot-like channel-regular imitation bot in another channel
13:49:58 <fungot> Taneb: it's not my fault, i believe.) hmm... long digression, guys!".
13:52:31 <Taneb> Does USD form a module over the ring of 100ths of integers?
13:53:13 <Taneb> And thus exchange rates form a homomorphism!
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16:55:42 <mroman> anybody working on an interesting esolang?
16:55:55 <mroman> that... uhm.. has functions and some way of #include?
16:56:07 <mroman> or anybode worked on one?
16:56:13 <mroman> preferably with an implementation available
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17:37:33 <cpressey> so, one of things I've never liked about monads is that people are apt to talk about "THE list monad" as if there is only monad that could be sensibly applied to lists
17:37:46 <cpressey> but i think i just figured out why this happens
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17:42:55 <cpressey> i'd ask on #haskell but i half-expect to be talked down to, there
17:43:29 <cpressey> HI Phantom_Hoover HOW'S YOUR BLOG HOW'S BITCOIN
17:43:34 <elliott> it's not true for every type
17:43:40 <elliott> it is true for lists though
17:44:14 <cpressey> elliott: so it's just that "the X monad" is "the monad for X that seems to make the most sense to the most people"?
17:45:10 <elliott> cpressey: there is only one list monad
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17:45:28 <mroman> what are the other list monads :D?
17:45:45 <elliott> cpressey: but generally "the X monad" is going to mean the monad that X actually has an instance for, so yeah.
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17:46:36 <elliott> cpressey: okay, let's put it this way: "the State monad" doesn't mean "the monad that State is", "State" there implicitly carries the semantics we associate with it
17:46:39 <elliott> rather than just the type itself
17:47:05 <elliott> cpressey: just like "the ring <some set>" in mathematics
17:47:39 <cpressey> i apologize for not knowing that the list object only has one possible monad (if that's true)
17:48:46 <orin> is a monad a mathematical thing
17:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a concept taken from the academic study of the austro-hungarian empire's administrative structure
17:50:32 <mroman> cpressey: the haskell-guys seem to have that opinion that you can't define another monad, yes.
17:50:39 <orin> I'm just asking which link to click on wikipedia's biguation page?
17:51:12 <cpressey> longerwordthatbasicallymeanstrivial
17:52:02 <orin> sre we talking about "Monad (category theory)" or "Monad (functional programming)"
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17:52:37 <cpressey> "pathological" except with the connotation of also trivial
17:52:58 <cpressey> anyway n/m question about general usage of word answered thank you very much
17:53:49 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: BING thank you
17:53:57 <oerjan> cpressey: hi thanks to a dmm comic i realized what chrysoberyl means :P
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17:54:23 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: oh, there is also a word you used years ago that i've been meaning to ask you about (but now i have the channel logs so i can probably find it by grepping)
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17:55:46 <cpressey> so, there are no degenerate list monads? the usual one is unique?
17:56:08 <oerjan> what would a degenerate list monad be?
17:56:16 <oerjan> Maybe could count as one...
17:56:23 <cpressey> oerjan: i feel like such a nerd since i learned it through, um, gemology
17:57:33 <oerjan> well i _actually_ learned it from wikipedia's article, but the comic pointed me there
17:59:10 <quintopia> hi chris. 'sbeen a while. anything new for us?
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18:00:32 <oerjan> cpressey: i am not sure whether the usual Monad is the only possible one for [] but i wouldn't be extremely surprised. maybe something that permutes elements could also work, but that wouldn't be "degenerate" as such
18:01:02 <cpressey> doesn't have to be strictly "degenerate" or any other adjective; just has to exist
18:01:33 <cpressey> to distinguish "the usual list monad" vs "the unique list monad" which is (apparently) what i care about
18:03:54 <oerjan> the fact that the ZipList Applicative cannot be extended to a Monad is a bit subtle, so to prove it even more generally...
18:06:31 <Taneb> It can if all lists are infinite, but then you're using different lists
18:06:50 <oerjan> yes, it also can if all lists have the same length
18:07:05 <oerjan> then you use a different return
18:10:16 <oerjan> "is the list monad unique" doesn't seem to give any sensible google hits
18:11:23 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
18:11:24 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
18:11:24 <myndzi> /< c.c >\ /< | | >\ c.c /| | /< |/^\ c.c /|
18:12:05 <oerjan> (belated demonstration)
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18:16:24 <oerjan> <Taneb> Does USD form a module over the ring of 100ths of integers? <-- 100ths of integers isn't closed under multiplication
18:19:05 <oerjan> <elliott> it is true for lists though <-- is there a proof around?
18:19:25 <oerjan> it would of course give the ZipList thing as a corollary
18:21:33 <oerjan> btw the State s monad mentioned is one example where it's definitely not unique: the type is isomorphic to ReaderT s (Writer s) which has a completely different instance
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18:22:38 <oerjan> (also WriterT s (Reader s), although i think those two _are_ isomorphic.
18:22:48 <oerjan> oh and s must be a Monoid.
18:23:05 <oerjan> @unmtl WriterT s (Reader s)
18:23:05 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `WriterT s (Reader s)' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. (Reader s) (A, s)'
18:23:13 <oerjan> @unmtl WriterT s (Reader s) a
18:23:51 <oerjan> @unmtl ReaderT s (Writer s) a
18:24:14 <oerjan> am i doing something wrong or doesn't it know about those
18:25:00 <oerjan> @@ @unmtl @unmtl WriterT s (Reader s) a
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18:25:31 <int-e> looks like it doesn't know that (a b) c is a b c
18:26:07 <int-e> so what's holding up ghc-7.10.1 now?
18:26:31 <oerjan> is it post the deadline?
18:27:59 <int-e> Yes, last Friday, I thought.
18:28:23 <oerjan> and all tickets are gone from https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Status/GHC-7.10.1
18:28:23 <int-e> Anyway they're tweaking release notes, so there's some hope...
18:31:16 <oerjan> *although i think those two _are_ isomorphic as monads
18:36:00 <elliott> oerjan: and yeah I know State wasn't unique in that sense
18:36:18 <elliott> oerjan: though to be fair that requires Monoid s
18:36:20 <oerjan> the typeable kind bug has been fixed yes
18:36:32 <elliott> there is probably no other monad *parametric* in s?
18:36:55 <Vorpal> Random question to anyone who knows: What is the best (quality/file size ratio) lossy audio format? mp3 or ogg? Or doesn't it matter as long as you use a good encoder and reasonable parameters?
18:37:00 <elliott> maybe you can just pick the "right" one all the time
18:37:08 <elliott> no you'd still need s to have an element
18:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, never heard of that, doubt the player on my phone supports that though
18:37:44 <elliott> probably rockbox or something does
18:38:14 <elliott> vorbis handles artifacts better than mp3, at least, so at low bitrate...
18:38:25 <elliott> but probably LAME is so good that at the kind of bitrates you'd expect to use these days it doesn't matter
18:38:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I'm rather attached to PowerAmp, the library search and management aspect of it is unparalleled on phones (of what I tried so far)
18:38:39 <elliott> which is strictly better than both mp3 and vorbis probably
18:39:00 <orin> mp3 is fine unless you have really good speakers
18:39:17 <elliott> just use anything it doesn't matter you won't hear any artifacts with reasonable settings
18:39:39 <elliott> orin: actually mp3 is transparent no matter what speakers you have with a good encoder/settings and a not-totally-pathological sample
18:39:48 <Vorpal> orin, well I have the music in flac currently, which is just a waste of space, so I need to convert it to something. Might as well go for the best one then.
18:39:57 <elliott> (please feel free to publish ABX results contradicting this)
18:40:13 <elliott> (please don't feel free to tell me lossless "just sounds better" without them)
18:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, the only reason to use lossless from what I understand if you need to process it (as you would in a studio after recording the music)
18:40:59 <orin> I don't have any music that isn't mp3 so I have no data. My father *claims* that vinyl is best
18:41:14 <oerjan> cpressey: hm i think i may have a very degenerate monad that works for _finite length_ lists.
18:41:50 <elliott> your father either doesn't understand audio at all, or just likes the specific distortion and artifacts caused by vinyl
18:41:54 <Vorpal> orin, I personally hate the typical vinyl sound, it doesn't sound as clear as a CD in general. Though since it is analogue it technically has more information.
18:42:00 <elliott> (and in particular the evolving nature of them as you listen to a record over time)
18:42:21 <elliott> but you can capture any given play of a vinyl just fine in digital audio and play that back and it'll sound just as good
18:42:29 <orin> I think he just likes the music that came out in the days of vinyl
18:42:43 <elliott> oh, and vinyl sometimes has better mastering than CD releases
18:42:52 <elliott> in which case it of course sounds a lot better
18:43:36 <orin> elliott: i think i know what you mean, vinyl records are quieter
18:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the sheet music sounds superior to all of these
18:43:50 <oerjan> return x = [x]; [x] >>= f = f x; l >>= f | all ((==1).length) l' = concat l | otherwise = [] where l' = map f l
18:43:57 <elliott> if you want a quick primer on digital audio in terms of how sampling and analogue vs. digital etc. works, https://www.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html is nice
18:44:11 <Vorpal> elliott, no pesky acoustics getting in between you and the pure music
18:44:26 <elliott> orin: yeah (not always. sometimes they just use the exact same master they were going to use for the CD and press it to vinyl. except it gets actually more distorted by the processing needed to be able to put it on vinyl)
18:45:04 <elliott> really, most people are never even going to notice artifacts in an even 128 kbps MP3 encoded with a good version of LAME
18:45:17 <elliott> I do like lossless audio but just because I'm obsessive, not because it is actually better for me in any way whatsoever.
18:45:20 <Vorpal> elliott, why would they not add the most dynamic range they can? Seems stupid to not make use of the entire spectrum. And surely CD audio has enough dynamic range for anything...
18:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: well I can't summarise the loudness war in a single IRC line
18:45:45 <Vorpal> Well anything non-pathological
18:45:47 <orin> because WE LIKE IT LOUD DUDURDUDUR
18:45:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought that was just radio...
18:45:58 <elliott> no, it affects CD mastering
18:45:59 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
18:46:08 <Vorpal> Why? It makes little sense there
18:46:19 <elliott> just read the wikipedia article or something >_>
18:47:08 <elliott> (it's also not 100% objectively terrible, really, it produces a certain sound. lots of compression is obviously wildly inappropriate for certain music, though.)
18:47:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so, I'm probably going for lame, since I remember there was/is an issue with cover art in ogg using PowerAmp.
18:47:43 <elliott> just use one of the --preset options and leave it at that
18:47:46 <elliott> (the default should be just fine)
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18:48:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I would like a feature to do compression up to a certain minimum level on the fly. That would be useful when feeding music into the car stereo while driving and you hit a quiet piece you can't hear about the engine. And when you turn it up and it gets to a loud section you suddenly can't hear the car engine instead
18:48:30 <elliott> --preset medium if you want to save some space with most likely no perceptible loss of quality, --preset standard if you want some kind of stronger transparency guarantee
18:48:54 <Vorpal> You said "good version" of lame
18:48:55 <Vorpal> LAME 64bits version 3.99.5 (http://lame.sf.net)
18:49:04 <Vorpal> Or should I try to update it
18:49:12 <Vorpal> This is debian stable after all
18:49:56 <Vorpal> Well Ubuntu 14.04 LTS has the same version. So screw it
18:50:00 <elliott> "anything from the last decade"
18:50:24 <Vorpal> Hah this is the last version
18:50:28 <elliott> I just mean that in the Old Days mp3s actually did suck, because all the encoders did.
18:50:45 <elliott> and you actually did need super-high bitrates to get reasonable results.
18:50:53 <Vorpal> Wow, a package where debian stable has the current version
18:51:08 <elliott> tbf that version was released over three years ago
18:51:12 <Vorpal> elliott, is that why loudr still provides 320 kbps MP3 download...
18:51:18 <elliott> LAME is one of those programs that is pretty much complete
18:51:31 <elliott> Vorpal: no that's just because people want them
18:51:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I would prefer VBR, bandcamp has that iirc, it is a bit smaller...
18:52:05 <elliott> yeah but people see 320 and think "that's the maximum, it must be better".
18:52:16 <Vorpal> loudr just provides 320, FLAC and apple lossless
18:52:41 <elliott> right. that makes them look higher quality than saying "~190 kbps" and it's also simpler.
18:52:58 <Vorpal> And I'm too lazy to convert to something sane (in which case you should probably start with lossless anyway?)
18:53:01 <orin> I usually get my music from youtube so my perceptions might be ... pedestrian
18:53:11 <elliott> I mean, listening to music is a subjective psychological experience. so if people like their placebos, then cool.
18:53:24 <Vorpal> I actually prefer bandcamp as a platform when the music is available there
18:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I wouldn't transcode but you could probably do it without losing too much if you needed to save space
18:53:44 <orin> I usually can't tell the difference between a CD and the ipepd mp3
18:53:49 <elliott> "too much" = "anything noticeable", I guess. I don't know how bad transcodes really are with decent source material and settings.
18:54:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I have a 64 GB memory card in my phone, 17 GB of that is music, about 5 is various other stuff, and the rest is free
18:54:18 <Vorpal> so I'm not quite hurting for space yet
18:54:54 <Vorpal> elliott, also covert art embedding is really stupid. Because that will be the same across an album. And now you have 10+ copies of the same image
18:55:08 <elliott> Vorpal: you can just put cover.jpg or album.jpg or whatever the names people use are in the same folder
18:55:12 <Vorpal> elliott, On the other hand, cover.jpg files show up in the bloody album app on the phone
18:55:21 <elliott> anyway the cover is going to be smaller than the audio data :P
18:55:46 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, but this album has 1500x1500 png cover art embedded!
18:55:49 <orin> just reduce the cover art to 64x64 and put it in
18:55:51 <Vorpal> Which is pretty stupid
18:56:19 <Vorpal> orin, A bit more than that given the screen. I usually go for 500x500, that works well when blown up on the lock screen as well
18:57:00 <Vorpal> But yes I have seen <10 MB music files with cover art of 2 MB
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18:58:41 <Vorpal> lame -V2 input.wav output.mp3
18:58:49 <Vorpal> Not recommending --preset in --help?
18:59:33 <Vorpal> Whaat... lame can't read flac? How annoying, oggenc can iirc
19:00:01 <orin> convert to wav first?
19:00:09 <Vorpal> Well yes, but that is annoying.
19:00:21 <Vorpal> find . -iname '*.flac' -print0 | xargs -0 -n1 -P4 lame -V2 has a certain beauty
19:00:31 <elliott> Vorpal: -V2 is --preset standard
19:00:59 <elliott> http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=LAME#Recommended_encoder_settings
19:01:07 <Vorpal> I wonder how to convert to wav without touching ffmpeg (spending 10 hours reading man page)
19:01:32 <elliott> tbh though I would just use one of the three presets in http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=LAME#Technical_information that aren't the 320 one
19:02:02 <orin> I use avconv (ffmpeg's new name) for a lot of stuff
19:02:04 <elliott> twiddling any more nobs than a -V switch is pointless and harmful, anyway
19:02:17 <elliott> orin: that is a very flamewarry way of describing the ffmpeg/libav split :P
19:02:17 <Vorpal> orin, avconv is not ffmpeg's new name. That is a fork and what not
19:02:22 <elliott> (I think Debian is switching back to ffmpeg?)
19:02:32 <Vorpal> I think I heard that too elliott
19:02:44 <Vorpal> Also I always had issues with avconv compared to real ffmpeg
19:02:58 <orin> anyway I use it for taking out pieces of a video
19:03:36 <Vorpal> Yes it definitely can be used for that. But it is a swiss army knife, and I don't use it enough to remember the complicated syntax
19:03:54 <elliott> ffmpeg/avconv should just use the LAME library, anyway
19:04:02 <elliott> as in, it almost certainly does
19:04:08 <Taneb> <oerjan> <Taneb> Does USD form a module over the ring of 100ths of integers? <-- 100ths of integers isn't closed under multiplication <-- bah, foiled again
19:04:11 <elliott> Vorpal: flac can decode to stdout btw
19:04:16 <elliott> so you can probably just pipe that into lame
19:04:54 <Vorpal> elliott, then I will have to deal with messy file names with space. Also parallelizing it would be annoying
19:05:35 <elliott> what is this about filenames
19:05:43 <elliott> I just mean flac ... filename | lame ... rather than lame ... filename
19:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, sure, but that means lame doesn't auto-set a reasonable output file name based on input, which it does when just provided a file name
19:06:26 <cpressey> oerjan: i'm just fascinated that it seems to be an open(ish) question
19:06:42 <Vorpal> for i in *.flac; do sox "${i}" "${i/.flac/.wav}"; done # not parallel, but quite fast
19:06:48 <Vorpal> find . -iname '*.wav' -print0 | xargs -0 -n1 -P4 lame -V2 # speeeed
19:07:07 <cpressey> I mean I could see the Maybe monad being unique
19:07:21 <elliott> it's not so much an open question as nobody has bothered writing it up, as far as [] goes, I think
19:07:26 <orin> Vorpal how many cores do you have???
19:07:32 <elliott> it's one of those things that's "just obvious"
19:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> has someone found http://blog.jle.im/entry/a-non-unique-monad-instance yet?
19:07:39 <elliott> if I am proved wrong I will eat several hats
19:07:42 <Vorpal> orin, which is why I used -P4
19:07:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah not all types have a unique monad instance
19:08:00 <elliott> though some of them have them unique up to a choice of monoid or such, I suspect
19:08:07 <orin> then with 2 programs per run, use P2?
19:08:10 <Vorpal> elliott, Though .wav lost the metadata, of course
19:08:18 <Vorpal> Well that can be copied
19:08:26 <elliott> cpressey: for something like State, the thing is that we associate semantics with State s a beyond just Thing s a = s -> (a, s)
19:08:52 <elliott> so when we say "the State monad", we're bringing the intended semantics in, whereas "the Thing monad" would be legitimately ambiguous
19:13:03 <Taneb> (,) Integer has multiple valid Monad instances
19:13:19 <Taneb> Eg, the Sum writer, the Product writer
19:13:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: I tried out the Android photosphere and panorama things. But the subject matter was such that you can't really judge stitching quality or anything.
19:13:42 <elliott> that falls under "unique up to a choice of monoid"
19:15:05 <Taneb> elliott, ah, I missed the goalposts moving
19:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott, this is strange, I'm using X11 forwarding, and a bloody wine program runs better over it than a qt program
19:15:28 <elliott> well I never claimed that every type has a unique monad instance
19:15:35 <elliott> I knew that counterexample from the start
19:15:54 <orin> Qt is probably poorly written then
19:15:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is directly out of the device: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150324-pano_20150321_221800.jpg -- I think you could stitch that up pretty much as badly as you like and it still wouldn't be too noticeable.
19:16:01 <elliott> Vorpal: that doesn't surprise me
19:16:03 <Taneb> Well, howabout "Sum Integer -> (Sum Integer, a)" has a more interesting non-uniqueness
19:16:08 <elliott> wine's UI stuff is a lot simpler
19:16:19 <Taneb> ie, State monad and composition of Reader and Writer
19:16:29 <elliott> Vorpal: and also I suspect Qt don't care about X11 forwarding
19:16:37 <elliott> since it's unpleasant and Wayland
19:16:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I think this qt is too old. Thought it is probably PyQt as well on top of everything
19:17:16 <fizzie> (Okay, there's a noticeable jagged edge in the pillar in front of the stage.)
19:17:21 <FireFly> Speaking of audio codecs I found http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html to be a good read
19:17:34 <Vorpal> I'm forwarding from debian stable, I doubt it is too waylandish yet
19:17:59 <orin> has anyone here ever heard of "A Logical Approach to Discrete Math0"
19:18:30 <orin> by David Gries and F.B Schnieder
19:19:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I just mean nobody cares about X11 forwarding because that's not how networked GUIs will work under Wayland, which is The Future that everyone is preparing for.
19:19:48 <elliott> (rapidly becoming the present, really... I think Fedora plans to partially switch next version and then fully switch by default the version after?)
19:20:03 <elliott> FireFly: hehe, I linked that earlier
19:20:08 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I'm just trying to quickly access a GUI program on a different computer, and no x11vnc won't work well (because the target screen is like 3 times as big as the laptop I'm at)
19:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, hm what happens to catalyst and the nvidia drivers?
19:20:30 <elliott> it doesn't get into lossy compression or anything but it's like half of what I know about digital audio
19:20:47 <elliott> Vorpal: you could use xpra
19:20:56 <elliott> Vorpal: and those drivers do kernel modesetting anyway
19:21:03 <Vorpal> elliott, for forwarding? Never heard of it, will look into it
19:21:07 <cpressey> elliott: well yes; that's similar to "the ring of reals" thing; when people say that, I know they mean "the usual ring over the reals" even though there are probably others
19:21:10 <elliott> yes you have I told you about xpra before :P
19:21:29 <elliott> cpressey: well, are there others? it depends on what you mean by "the reals"
19:21:40 <cpressey> elliott: yeah, i mean, i don't know
19:21:44 <Vorpal> what about modesetting? Does that mean the drivers will work out of box for opengl under wayland?
19:21:46 <elliott> it can't mean a set, because there are multiple constructions of the reals and only set theorists care about the difference
19:22:11 <Vorpal> I assumed the user space component (libGL, libGLU and so on) would need updating to work with wayland
19:22:14 <cpressey> elliott: pretend i said "rationals" if you like :0
19:22:20 <elliott> it's basically like what "the X" means in category theory -- "we know that all Xs are, say, uniquely isomorphic, so 'the X' just means whichever X you want, because there is only one in the ways we care about"
19:22:21 <Vorpal> And I thought the drivers provided them
19:22:40 <elliott> so "the reals" probably means "the ordered Archimedean field"
19:22:43 <orin> holy jesus "XWayland is an X Server running as a Wayland client" oh god why???
19:22:56 <elliott> orin: so that you can run X11 applications on a Wayland desktop?
19:23:16 <Vorpal> orin, backward compatibility?
19:23:22 <orin> and we need to redirect everyhtinh thru another program!?!??
19:23:22 <elliott> why do nerds get so worked up about simple things... it's literally just software, chill :p
19:24:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I should try that response at work :D
19:24:38 <elliott> orin: ok, since you must be an expert to know how obviously unreasonable this is, what would you do?
19:24:43 <Vorpal> "We are not meeting the real time scheduling deadline!" "It's literally just software, chill :p"
19:25:35 <Vorpal> (Yes I work on real time control software, partly safety critical as in human lives, partly just "we lose a lot of money if it doesn't work")
19:26:21 <elliott> hopefully the level of discourse at your workplace is slightly higher than holy jesus oh god why
19:26:30 <orin> elliott: I would have the new display thingy support the old API directly.
19:26:41 <elliott> orin: that's not how it works. X11 is a network protocol
19:27:03 <elliott> also, the whole point is to drop the cruft of the X11 protocol from the core display server.
19:27:18 <elliott> (yes, multiple libraries are used to access X11 servers. e.g. Xlib and XCB.)
19:27:46 <elliott> also, there's not really such a thing as "the Wayland server".
19:28:02 <elliott> there's just Wayland compositors, which are relatively simple to write, because they don't have to do much.
19:28:17 <elliott> ...but you knew all this before dismissing it, right?
19:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, obviously. Though missing two scheduling deadlines in a row (or more than x in y, which I don't remember on the top of my head) will trigger an emergency stop. So that is probably not the worst way for stuff to fail in. And it failed in the lab (with simulated actuations) like that of course at some point or other
19:28:43 <orin> well my key issue here is "will this change cause my stuff to run slower or possibly not work?" and the answer seems to be "yes"
19:28:46 <elliott> Vorpal: please don't get me killed :P
19:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, do you work in a mine?
19:29:32 <elliott> orin: I don't see any reason for a non-negligible speed penalty. also, GTK and Qt and SDL and ... support Wayland natively, so most things will not go through the X11 forwarding soon enough.
19:29:47 <orin> just like pulseaudio caused problems for liek 5 years before is worked
19:29:50 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't work in one, then you are probably safe from me at least.
19:29:56 <cpressey> elliott: yes, also, that's the point (when you just start making general statements about structures) where I usually get lost :)
19:30:01 <elliott> I think the current default GNOME Wayland setup actually uses XWayland for all the applications rather than native Wayland and it works just fine.
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19:30:12 <elliott> the overhead should be roughly nothing
19:30:19 <oerjan> <elliott> it's not so much an open question as nobody has bothered writing it up, as far as [] goes, I think <-- did you see my finite length only counterexample above
19:30:27 <elliott> I think you're just looking for an excuse to complain though so whatever
19:30:29 <Vorpal> elliott, what about gaming performance through XWayland though?
19:30:42 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's still going to be using GL, right
19:30:58 <elliott> maaaaybe there'll be one additional copy?
19:31:03 <elliott> but I'm not sure, I think there might not be
19:31:04 <Vorpal> elliott, input lag though?
19:31:17 <elliott> it's not like xwayland is some huge bulky thing
19:31:29 <orin> elliott: essentially I'm aware that ANY change to software tends to cause users problems (NEW probles which don't have workarounds yet)
19:31:35 <Vorpal> Not that there weren't extra layers before...
19:31:36 <elliott> it's just like running an X11 server except instead of talking to graphicsy KMS stuff directly it talks to a wayland compositor
19:31:52 <elliott> orin: ok. then I suggest running debian stable
19:32:20 <elliott> oerjan: that is a strange instance
19:32:20 <orin> I run Xubuntu stable and I rarely update it
19:32:32 <elliott> orin: great. then you don't have to complain about changes because you won't get them
19:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, also btw, real time systems are so nice to work with, you never see a GUI freeze up. The system just flows nicely all the time, irrespective of load. I'm seriously considering switching to a rt-patch kernel...
19:32:42 <Vorpal> On my personal computer I mean
19:32:58 <Vorpal> Still, that won't solve all of it of course
19:32:59 <elliott> Vorpal: I could never work on anything directly connected to people's lives :/
19:34:04 <Vorpal> elliott, good testing and enough safety layers that if any one of the layers fail everything will stop in a safe way is the key to good sleep while programming real time systems
19:34:46 <Vorpal> And hardware interlocks for the really critical parts of course.
19:35:59 <elliott> please don't posix_madvise any cars I am in
19:36:19 <Vorpal> elliott, If someone hits the emergency stop button, that breaks a constant current and electrically cuts off the output. Then the control software is informed of this, but it is not involved in actually halting the actuations. This is what people refer to as fail-safe
19:36:30 <Vorpal> Well, one specific example of fail safe
19:36:41 <orin> do cars even use UNIX?
19:37:05 <elliott> an expensive car probably has a couple of linux systems in it these days I think
19:37:10 <elliott> (but not for anything safety-critical)
19:37:16 <elliott> okay, maybe not "probably"
19:37:33 <Vorpal> elliott, there may be real time linux systems, but the brakes won't be running on Linux
19:37:39 <fizzie> The elevator in a hotel I was in recently had this thing where, for maybe 10-15% of trips, it started moving without closing the doors, went up for maybe a cm or two, then fell back and stopped; then closed the doors and did the normal thing.
19:37:43 <fizzie> It felt exactly like a hardware interlock stopping the software from doing a stupid thing, and didn't really leave me at ease.
19:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I was thinking for, like, in-car touchscreen type things.
19:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott, nobody has safety certified real time linux, that is the reason for that
19:37:52 <oerjan> <elliott> so "the reals" probably means "the ordered Archimedean field" <-- *+complete
19:38:02 <elliott> oerjan: I knew I was forgetting something
19:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, we use real time linux for some modules, but not for the modules which have been deemed safety critical. They run on some expensive certified RTOS.
19:39:08 <Vorpal> Which begs the question... Which code is actually most well tested? That expensive RTOS, or Linux
19:39:14 <orin> I once saw a restaurant sign booting up... it was, for unfathomable reasons, RedHat.
19:39:18 <Jafet> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/researchers-hack-cars-to-remotely-control-steering-and-brakes-8733723.html
19:39:20 <Vorpal> One is certified yes, but what does that actually mean?
19:39:53 <elliott> Vorpal: about as scared as always under late capitalism
19:39:53 <orin> Who certifies it?
19:40:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I can almost guarantee it is not formally verified in most cases. Not an entire OS. Specific algorithms maybe.
19:41:25 <Vorpal> Jafet, I wonder if the button to lock/unlock the car doors on the key is secure, it probably isn't using high end RSA keys, lets put it like that...
19:41:42 <Vorpal> Depending on the car, a replay attack might work
19:41:51 <orin> elliott: I like that "era name": `In 2015, as the Late Capitalism Era continued to smolder...'
19:41:53 <elliott> have you used one of those fancy RNG card things for banks
19:42:10 <elliott> where you press a button and you put in the number it gives you into your bank's website
19:42:15 <elliott> I've always wondered exactly how they work
19:42:23 <elliott> they'll spit out like 5 numbers in a minute before telling you to wait for the next one
19:42:29 <orin> I have never heard of such thing
19:42:31 <elliott> I can think of many schemes you could use
19:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I log in using my debit card, which I put into a card reader with a small display and a numpad
19:42:46 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is challenge reply
19:42:58 <Vorpal> Secure enough? Maybe, who knows...
19:43:00 <elliott> the thing is, the card I am talking about is not networked at all
19:43:09 <elliott> it is just a button and a display
19:43:31 <orin> elliott: giant one-time pad on flash memory?
19:43:33 <elliott> *all* communication must necessarily be one-time, before the card is sent out to the customer
19:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well nor is the one I'm using. I get a 9 digit code on my screen, type it into the card reader.
19:43:54 <elliott> orin: maybe... the bank would have to store all the random data though
19:43:56 <Vorpal> elliott, quite similar to this one https://gfs.nb.se/privat/bilder/ovrigt/card_reader_logincard.jpg
19:44:13 <elliott> orin: it could just store a seed, but seeking to the "next" number might be slow
19:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, then the card PIN, and I get a 9 digit replay code
19:44:17 <elliott> like I said I can imagine tons of systems
19:44:30 <elliott> but I wonder which one is actually used
19:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what about these: http://www.tokenguard.com/images/tokens/SID700.gif I have that for VPN to work, it gives a new code every 30 seconds... But how do they keep the clock synced?
19:45:25 <elliott> Vorpal: right, it is that kind of thing
19:45:46 <elliott> isn't that the thing that uses dual ec drbg because of the nsa
19:46:01 <Vorpal> elliott, hm maybe? It looks quite similar at least
19:46:30 <elliott> "The RSA SecurID token is a rather old, already broken and a rather expensive solution." hm
19:46:34 <elliott> well anyway one way to do it could be like...
19:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you need more than just that one though, password as well
19:46:47 <elliott> you have a key shared by the bank and your card
19:47:00 <fizzie> I had a SecurID at Nokia.
19:47:01 <Vorpal> elliott, for https://gfs.nb.se/privat/bilder/ovrigt/card_reader_logincard.jpg you mean?
19:47:07 <elliott> the card spits out some jumbling of the key with the current minute you're in, and an index
19:47:12 <elliott> (like "the Nth code of the minute")
19:47:23 <elliott> and then your bank just probes that space
19:47:27 <elliott> I think it's actually rate-limited though
19:47:43 <elliott> like pressing it repeatedly gets you fewer codes in a minute than pressing it slowly over the course of the minute? I'm not sure
19:47:51 <elliott> Vorpal: no for the thing I'm talking about
19:47:53 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: that is a strange instance <-- basically i define everything to be [] except what the first and second monad laws and fmap law force not to be
19:47:58 <elliott> don't worry I don't care about your bank's system at all :p
19:47:59 <izabera> i just noticed that there are both edirc and erdic o_O
19:48:37 <Vorpal> elliott, the one I have is rate limited and the challenge is time limited in it's validity, but not time limited in the generation algorithm (I tried the same challenge twice with a few minutes in between on the device, gave the same response)
19:49:08 <elliott> izabera: there used to be both newsham and news-ham but that was my fault.
19:49:12 <Vorpal> of course, a challenge is only valid for one entry on the website though
19:49:36 <fizzie> And the bank account has a card reader with three different functions. One is plain identification, one a challenge-response and the last one a sign-a-payment thing. They differ in how many things you need to type in.
19:50:12 <elliott> izabera: it would have been good if you made edirc as a pun on erdic though.
19:50:35 <izabera> ha ha erdic it was totally a pun
19:51:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are 4 buttons on the one I have (login, sign, buy and something I don't remember), only ever use two though (login and sign)
19:51:37 <Vorpal> though all are challenge-response based
19:52:04 <fizzie> The "identify" on mine only needs the PIN.
19:52:21 <Vorpal> for me it is challenge + PIN for every function
19:52:48 <fizzie> ISTR challenge wants one code, and sign a code and a monetary amount.
19:53:09 <Vorpal> though challenge length can vary on a given function depending on what you transfer. Like when I made a bit transfer I had to type in the sum I transferred as well as the usual random numbers
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19:56:02 <fizzie> I got a Google account phishing email at my personal (non-gmail) address the other day.
19:56:31 <fizzie> It wasn't very professional, although they had at least copied the logos.
19:57:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I assume you use two factor auth for google?
19:57:48 <fizzie> I'm afraid I can't comment, but common sense says that would be a reasonable guess.
19:58:02 <elliott> is that covered under your NDA too
19:58:21 <fizzie> Not explicitly. It's just very generic.
19:58:34 <Vorpal> well a lot of sites have been pushing it lately
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19:59:25 <Vorpal> google, github, gandi, linode, launchpad too iirc(?)
19:59:35 <Vorpal> and I'm sure I have seen more offering it
19:59:54 <Vorpal> Did bitbucket offer it? I can't remember
20:00:13 <fizzie> We do support it for regular Google accounts. I think you can also use a Yubikey: https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey-neo/
20:00:33 <fizzie> If you want to pay for the hardware, that is.
20:00:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, issue with yubikey iirc, is that it is limited to the number of accounts it can track?
20:01:33 <fizzie> Maybe? I don't know details.
20:01:38 * int-e growls at Microsoft.
20:02:00 <fizzie> I wouldn't have expected, but...
20:02:09 <elliott> yubikey supports like a billion things
20:02:19 <elliott> https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/
20:02:28 <elliott> even PGP if you buy the right one
20:03:08 <Vorpal> elliott, hm maybe it was the original one that was fairly limited then
20:03:26 <Vorpal> And then there is the new U2F thingy
20:03:46 -!- L8D has joined.
20:03:53 <elliott> yes, yubikey supports that
20:03:57 <elliott> they even have one that just does that
20:04:00 <int-e> (We're switching our calendars to Exchange... so you can mark appointments as private. Common sense would suggest that this means that the details of the appointment are only visible to yourself. And it seems to be true, as long as you use MS' own clients. But the server happily gives the information out, and the EWS provider for Thunderbird does *not* filter the information of other people's...
20:04:07 <int-e> ...private appointments...)
20:04:27 <pikhq> Yubikey is pretty delightful.
20:04:33 <Vorpal> elliott, Does the normal one support it? Then a neo might be worth buying, rather than storing the two factor auth keys on your phone...
20:04:51 <int-e> http://tinyurl.com/pz5pcje
20:04:59 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:05:00 <int-e> And that's what MS has to say on this.
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20:05:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I literally linked you a table with all the things the models support. :p
20:05:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm looking at it currently
20:05:55 <Vorpal> Still, I would need NFC support, and $50 is quite a bit of money
20:07:57 <elliott> what's your salary and how often would you need a new yubikey though
20:09:53 <Vorpal> Well depends on if they break backward compatibility and how long the thing lasts
20:10:12 <pikhq> They don't and apparently ages.
20:10:37 <int-e> does it support firmware updates? . o O ( If so, every time you cross the US border and they find it in their security checks :P )
20:11:13 <pikhq> And that's the reason. :)
20:11:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, well okay, but look at the original standard yubikey, it is fairly limited compared to the neo, and since they don't support firmware upgrades, I believe early neo doesn't support U2F?
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20:12:37 <elliott> int-e: they could probably do enough with just temporary access to it, really
20:13:05 <pikhq> You're not going to see new functionality for the thing, but it's not as though support for it's going to suddenly go away.
20:13:07 <elliott> it's kind of irrelevant though since they could also just demand that you do whatever.
20:13:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, so that can be considered breaking backward compatibility the day when TOTP is deprecated in favor U2F
20:13:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, and apparently U2F currently doesn't support NFC
20:13:37 <Vorpal> so no login on the phone
20:14:10 <Vorpal> "Please note, current U2F standards do not support NFC for mobile devices. For more information, you can access the full U2F Specifications on the FIDO Alliance website."
20:14:26 <Vorpal> Probably won't be possible to update a NEO to add that support?
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20:25:51 <Vorpal> elliott, hm a ubikey neo and putting your ssh keys on it as well would be cool. And client ssl certificate.
20:26:22 <elliott> Vorpal: uh, just make sure you don't lose it
20:26:30 <elliott> (I don't think you could use password-protected keys there)
20:27:01 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... well you could have a password protected offline copy stored in a bank deposit
20:27:13 <Vorpal> Or something along those lines
20:27:36 <elliott> the point is that someone would get access to all your ssh accounts just from stealing your key
20:28:33 <orin> elliott: keep it around your neck at all times then
20:29:17 <elliott> ideally it would be embedded in your skin and only removable surgically
20:29:27 <orin> (these things are waterproof right)?]
20:29:31 <elliott> (let's hope it doesn't have a tracking device in it)
20:30:02 <orin> elliott: Oh shit
20:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm surely it would be pin protected as well? I think the GPG key variant when the device is acting as a smartcart requires a pin
20:30:27 <Vorpal> from some googling at least
20:30:37 <orin> well that's life in our corporatist paradise
20:31:23 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe... how do you give the yubikey the pin without giving the computer you're using license to print as many signaturse as it wants
20:32:16 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue I have is storing keys on my computer, even encrypted, what if the key is being handled in memory at the moment an attack happens
20:32:53 <elliott> it would need a bulky PIN entry thing
20:33:05 <elliott> I guess it would still require you to press it
20:33:13 <elliott> kinda yuck to give your computer the PIN
20:33:30 <fizzie> *ahem* voice input for digits *ahem*
20:33:34 <fizzie> Very good in public. :p
20:33:45 <elliott> is that what they have you working on :P
20:33:53 <Vorpal> elliott, Speaking of which, what if an attack breaks out of the browser sandbox. Then it has control of your X session... And if you have a root terminal open at that point. Ouch
20:33:55 <fizzie> I'm afraid I can't comment, but no.
20:34:34 <fizzie> I do remember reading one whisper-related research paper, but I can't recall whether it was about whispering recognition or whispering synthesis.
20:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you call old versions of google now "google then"?
20:34:48 <orin> put a touchscreen on it and use handwriting input
20:35:04 <elliott> Vorpal: I think Wayland will be a bit more secure there
20:35:18 <orin> that would be less bulky but more expensive obviously
20:35:18 <elliott> in that it will have more security than X's "none"
20:35:30 <fizzie> Yes; the way people have explained it to me, Wayland will improve on X's security model by having one.
20:35:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so now you break screen magnifiers and screenshot apps?
20:36:02 <elliott> oh no how terrible, we'll have to give like three programs special permissions :p
20:36:11 <Vorpal> Also password managers where you copy the key means that your key can be spyed on when in the clipboard
20:37:07 <fizzie> All this authentication talk makes me ashamed of not having enabled 2FA for my personal Google account. :/
20:37:23 <Vorpal> elliott, Apparently you can use gpg on yubikey, and you can use a gpg-agent for ssh login, so that way you can use a yubikey for ssh...
20:38:00 <Vorpal> Though there is no direct ssh key or ssl client cert support
20:40:25 <orin> fizzie: I just avoid having anything important on there
20:41:45 <orin> and I deal with my bank mostly physically anyway
20:43:42 <orin> It is cheap to clone a credit card, expensive to make a mask that looks like me and copy my passport
20:44:14 <orin> Although with modern 3d printing...
20:44:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's the other place I did a photosphere thing: http://goo.gl/0SvqVQ
20:44:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't see the first one?
20:44:50 <fizzie> "Not shown on Google Maps. Why? Pending approval..." they don't like me :/
20:44:57 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, it's the same place as the panorama.
20:45:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, that thing is hell on my browser on this old laptop? Can't you just link it like a normal image?
20:45:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't mind it being a bit distorted
20:46:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it is trying to do GL stuff, this is a core 2 duo with intel graphics, from before when intel graphics were any good
20:46:33 <fizzie> Except that I don't have it dumped from the phone yet.
20:46:48 <fizzie> I don't know if you can link to the underlying image in Views.
20:46:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't see any google maps integration in google camera?
20:47:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's really strange. Apparently you're supposed to be able to "share" it from Photos directly to Maps, but Maps doesn't even show up in the sharing menu.
20:47:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how did you upload it to maps?
20:47:54 <orin> What is the roundhouse?
20:48:13 <orin> is that a nightclub or a theatre?
20:48:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "official" (as in, mentioned in the support group) workaround is to set "full-resolution uploads" on in G+, upload to a G+ post, then go to Views with a regular browser and import it in from "my posts".
20:48:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, Also I wouldn't want to share it to maps, in any case, I don't get any royalty for it from google...
20:48:26 <fizzie> orin: It's a venue, I think it's mostly about music?
20:48:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh I actually laughed out loud at that complicated workaround
20:49:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: I mean, it's just an image, I think you can also just upload it to Views from a computer, and use any means you like to get the image off the phone. Although I don't know if it loses some metadata.
20:49:49 <fizzie> FWIW, at least my phone makes a pretty low-res photosphere.
20:49:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is "Views" with a capital V anyway?
20:50:17 <Vorpal> And didn't you have a nexus 6?
20:50:27 <Vorpal> I guess low res is a way to hide the seams
20:50:47 <orin> some google thing... they've switched from prepending a G to just capitalizing everything
20:50:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: As far as I can tell, Views is the part of Google Maps that deals with photospheres. The linking of multiple ones into a navigable thing, and the web-viewer, and so on.
20:51:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150324-pano_20150321_191802.jpg is the one I had dumped out of the phone, as a regular image.
20:51:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this different than street view?
20:51:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, neat, what is that of
20:51:51 <fizzie> http://www.roundhouse.org.uk/
20:52:00 <fizzie> It's some old railway turntable thing, I think.
20:52:04 <FireFly> That photosphere thing is cool, how does that work?
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20:52:27 <Vorpal> FireFly, turned into a venue?
20:53:09 <Vorpal> FireFly, the phone uses the gyro to keep track of where you are looking and then try to stitch together an image similar to any other panorama
20:53:32 <Vorpal> well probably gyro and compass
20:53:51 <Vorpal> FireFly, it also shows some guide points to help you get complete coverage
20:54:31 <fizzie> Hey, I can download the other photo back out of G+.
20:54:50 <fizzie> "2015 - 1.jpg". What a good file name.
20:55:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, it would be fun to try photo mapping btw, as in using photos to re-create a 3D scene with reasonable textures, it is all the rage nowdays
20:55:59 <fizzie> Yes. I even tried that out briefly back in Finland on some buildings of the university campus, but couldn't get a good enough set of photos to make the software work.
20:56:12 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150324-ps.jpg there's the other thing.
20:56:55 <fizzie> Heh, a rather nasty seam in the bridge. They look okayish at a glance, but...
20:57:43 <fizzie> I think I'll stick to panotoolsing it up. But admittedly this is more convenient.
20:58:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? what software?
20:58:23 <Vorpal> I don't know what software to use
20:58:31 <fizzie> I had a good set of links somewhere.
20:58:48 <fizzie> Let's see if they're not dead yet.
20:59:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I forgot if I uploaded mine
21:00:59 <fizzie> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~snavely/bundler/ does the basic unsorted-images-to-sparse-3D-point-cloud thing, http://www.di.ens.fr/pmvs/ can take that further into a mesh-and-texture thing, http://www.di.ens.fr/cmvs/ is a computational-cost-reducing trick for it, and http://ccwu.me/vsfm/ is kind of a full toolchain/frontend for it all.
21:01:19 <fizzie> It's all typical research code, so at least back when I was trying, getting it to compile was a full evening's job.
21:01:59 <fizzie> VisualSFM changelog doesn't include dates, cleverly, so it's hard to tell if it's actually seen any work lately.
21:02:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm didn't google research thingy have a phone with stereo cameras that could do this on the fly?
21:03:11 <fizzie> I remember something else vaguely similar too.
21:03:20 <fizzie> From a Tested.com video or something.
21:03:54 <fizzie> And of course Street View does 3D reconstruction, but that's based on the LIDAR stuff.
21:04:38 <fizzie> There was a LIDAR unit at the Computer History Museum's self-driving car exhibit.
21:04:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually, does it do 3D reconstruction?
21:05:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure how widely they actually do it.
21:05:34 <Vorpal> You mean, some areas only?
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21:08:05 <fizzie> I have this vague idea (based entirely on pre-Google knowledge) that the LIDAR data from Street View cars is involved in the 3D buildings of Google Earth (which I guess is now kinda-sorta part of the new web Google Maps).
21:08:15 <fizzie> But I could be entirely wrong there.
21:08:32 <Vorpal> 3D buildings on google maps? Didn't know that
21:09:04 <fizzie> Yes. If you use the new thing, satellite imagery is replaced with something relatively Earth-like.
21:09:28 <fizzie> Except you only have three levels of tilt (straight from above, and two oblique ones) and the 4 cardinal directions for rotation.
21:09:39 <fizzie> I assume it's all WebGL.
21:09:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, not like this computer could handle it, Also wouldn't it be limited to areas with street view coverage only?
21:10:11 <fizzie> I think it's limited to much less than that. Like, major city centres.
21:13:16 <fizzie> Helsinki doesn't have 3D buildings (in Maps) at all.
21:13:25 <fizzie> Although it does in the actual Google Earth.
21:13:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does it handle complex building shapes? Like "not a box"?
21:14:13 <fizzie> I think it's been impressively good, actually.
21:14:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder if it based on building plans though
21:14:32 <fizzie> There's a funny thing that it's clearly somehow optimized for the view direction.
21:14:42 <fizzie> (Possibly just the render aspect.)
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21:14:54 <fizzie> If you rotate it 90 degrees, it's very... well, it's hard to describe. But wrong-looking.
21:15:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm fairly certain that the building outlines on some Swedish maps are, because they are basically identical between different providers.
21:15:07 <fizzie> Then it'll fix things up after it loads more stuff.
21:15:46 <fizzie> If this magazine article is right, the 3D buildings in Maps are based on reconstructions from aerial imagery.
21:16:27 <Vorpal> Well that I don't believe quite
21:16:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, if so I wonder what something like the Eifel tower would end up looking like
21:17:23 <fizzie> They've had the "landmark" buildings as manually constructed 3D models for quite a while.
21:17:32 <fizzie> I doubt they'll let the autogenerated stuff override that.
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21:18:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I wonder how the algorithm would handle a building like that
21:20:40 <fizzie> http://www.google.com.au/earth/explore/showcase/3dimagery.html is about the only official thing I can find.
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21:22:29 <cpressey> oerjan: elliott: I guess an example is "the group over the rationals"; you obviously wouldn't say that because there are obviously 2 "good" candidates. and I'm pretty sure there are an infinite number of others
21:23:15 <cpressey> <Q,|,*> where * is multiplication and a|b = 2(a+b) I think is a ring, and there would be many more where that came from
21:23:59 <cpressey> and maybe a ring theorist would say "that's not REALLY different from the standard one" and well, no, it's not very interesting, they're both rings and ring theorists care more about rings than the sets of things that form the rings
21:24:11 <cpressey> programmers DO care about the concrete data, a lot.
21:24:32 <cpressey> i just needed to say that. i'll be afk for a bit
21:25:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, here it finally is. http://google-latlong.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/never-ending-quest-for-perfect-map.html "Since 2006, we’ve had textured 3D buildings in Google Earth, and today we are excited to announce that we will begin adding 3D models to entire metropolitan areas to Google Earth on mobile devices. This is possible thanks to a combination of our new imagery rendering ...
21:26:01 <fizzie> ... techniques and computer vision that let us automatically create 3D cityscapes, complete with buildings, terrain and even landscaping, from 45-degree aerial imagery."
21:26:46 <fizzie> As for quality, it's not hard to find places where it's made approximations (for "thin" structures etc.) but it's been better than I expected.
21:29:08 <int-e> a|b = 2(a+b) doesn't look very associative
21:29:48 <int-e> or perhaps we should start with the existence of a unit
21:33:31 <int-e> is $pos-- while (substr($data, $pos, 1) =~ /[\x80-\xBF]/); okay perl or is there a nicer way of doing that? (The task is to rewind $pos to the start of a unicode character in UTF-8.)
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21:37:31 <tromp> try matching the string up to position $pos against /[\x80-\xBF]*$/ and use length of match
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21:41:46 <int-e> Hmm, so ... substr($data, 0, $pos) =~ /[\x80-\xBF]*$/; $pos = $-[0];
21:44:45 <int-e> actually no, that has an off-by-one error.
21:44:57 <tromp> yep, you want $-[0]-1
21:45:15 <int-e> or /.[\x80-\xBF]*$/
21:45:57 <tromp> that is different if the string is all \x80-\xBF]*
21:45:58 <int-e> (oh but what's the value of $-[0] if there was no match...)
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21:46:18 <tromp> leaving out the . ensures a match
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21:47:01 <tromp> anyway , the nicest way involves avoiding the need to compute positions in the first place
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21:48:28 <int-e> thanks for the ideas
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21:54:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does the 3D reconstruction thing handle stuff like trees I wonder
21:54:55 <fizzie> I think they're faked.
21:55:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, no I mean, does it filter them?
21:55:14 <Vorpal> The research stuff you talked about
21:55:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, also does it need/make use of geotagged images?
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21:55:48 <Vorpal> I remember some camera app for my phone that could record compass direction as well
21:55:52 <fizzie> I don't think at least the VisualSFM workflow needs or makes any use of existing geotags.
21:57:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, I will endeavor to try that stuff out at some point. You said compiling it was tricky?
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21:58:20 <fizzie> Back then, yes. But I didn't keep any notes.
21:58:24 <Vorpal> So this was a while ago?
21:58:37 <fizzie> Yes, at least a year or two.
21:58:47 <fizzie> I think the "Ubuntu" installation guide on the VisualSFM page -- http://www.10flow.com/2012/08/15/building-visualsfm-on-ubuntu-12-04-precise-pangolin-desktop-64-bit/ -- more or less worked out on Debian.
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21:59:37 <fizzie> It must've been more like three years, because this is the same guide I remember reading, and it's talking about 12.04.
22:00:52 <fizzie> Anyway, there was nothing especially difficult, just minor nuisances. The kind of things the Ubuntu guide mentions, though I'm sure its workarounds are not the only possible ones.
22:01:56 <fizzie> Also, if you want a feeling of accomplishment, I'd suggest starting with some small physical object that you can walk around and photograph from all angles, and running the thing on that first.
22:02:21 <fizzie> Possibly even including somewhat from above.
22:02:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think I uploaded this one before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pjrwlsdckl3wr81/PANO_20150308_132129.jpg?dl=0
22:02:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I tried out that fish eye pano mod
22:03:23 <fizzie> Because I think the main problem with my "huge building not entirely visible from any place" thing was that it couldn't figure out how the pieces fit together, so it made me something like 20 unconnected components that were parts of the building.
22:04:00 <fizzie> So it's regular photos and just a fisheye projection for the result, or what?
22:04:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I don't mind if the roof is missing, it would be interesting it could accurately reconstruct the view along a street at ground level
22:04:26 <Vorpal> Even if there are some trees blocking the view every now and then
22:04:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is from the google camera app!
22:04:45 <fizzie> Oh! I didn't even know it has that.
22:04:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, you go to non-sphere panorama and then you switch from landscape mode
22:04:58 <fizzie> VisualSFM did pieces of different walls for me, it just didn't combine them into a single whole.
22:05:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is the [box] ... button you click on, and then you select the circle icon
22:05:42 <fizzie> Ohhh. I didn't even see that menu.
22:05:50 <Vorpal> No it wasn't really explanatory
22:05:57 <Vorpal> I had no idea it was doing fisheye
22:06:29 <fizzie> Do you know what the pillow-shaped thing is? The guide points looked like a 3x3 grid, so just a wideangle thing?
22:06:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think so, though I'm not 100% sure
22:07:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, by the way, how does the google camera app figure out the lens parameters?
22:07:14 <fizzie> Wow, the fisheye has a lot of points.
22:07:17 <Vorpal> I would love to figure those out myself for use with hugin
22:07:52 <fizzie> You can optimize for them, up to some degree.
22:08:01 <fizzie> I don't know how the stock camera app does it, though.
22:08:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is not the stock camera on my phone though
22:08:52 <Vorpal> so that is why I wonder
22:09:03 <Vorpal> since the data in question is not in the normal EXIF data
22:09:10 <Vorpal> unlike what my real camera gives me
22:09:27 <fizzie> My old phone (the N900) put some lens stuff in the EXIF data.
22:09:45 <fizzie> Although I think it was missing some stuff, because Hugin didn't know the focal length multiplier.
22:09:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, here is another phone camera image https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8nfprekuyjupby/PANO_20150314_150829.jpg?dl=0
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22:14:24 <cpressey> alright, so | as I defined it isn't associative.
22:15:01 <cpressey> so is there only one ring over the rationals?
22:15:13 <cpressey> that seems so unlikely, somehow
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22:17:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, so here is a bunch more panos https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eejt7nnbu5ephrq/AAAR-Jrfg0V8nFPwYKG8_VNGa?dl=0
22:17:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, also a normal photo of amazing ice
22:19:18 <orin> cpressey: perhaps there's only one ring over rationals where multiplication is comutive?
22:20:54 <cpressey> what about <Q,+,|> where a|b = 2*a*b
22:21:14 <cpressey> but this is kind of straying from my main point
22:22:02 <cpressey> which i don't remember well enough to put into words at the moment
22:22:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Fancy. Although the fisheye images kind of look "too perfect" to be realistic fisheye images.
22:22:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: No chromatic aberration near the outer edge and so on.
22:23:01 <cpressey> quintopia: I stand corrected. I do have something new. But it's not terribly esoteric: http://catseye.tc/installation/Matchbox
22:23:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you think about the iced branches above the stream?
22:24:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, it looked more amazing when you were there
22:27:01 <fizzie> V. fancy, too. Running water and ice tend to be a good combination. I think there was some photography collection at the Yle (Finnish public broadcasting thing) website once.
22:27:07 <fizzie> No ice or snow hereabouts.
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22:27:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, two more normal images of fancy ice added (from a while ago, might have showed it earlier?)
22:32:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, ooh found another nice image I haven't uploaded, might have some seams though
22:33:18 <Vorpal> still uploading though
22:33:41 <orin> Ok nevermind Wayland is ok... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_%28software%29
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22:34:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eejt7nnbu5ephrq/AAAR-Jrfg0V8nFPwYKG8_VNGa?dl=0#lh:null-PANO_20150222_143800.jpg
22:35:46 <orin> What projection is that?
22:36:22 <Vorpal> orin, not sure, it is the google camera app photo sphere thingy
22:36:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is on the top of a ridge that road goes over, though that isn't clear from the image I think
22:37:03 <Vorpal> I think the app was confused, because that looks decidedly flat in the image
22:37:15 <fizzie> I think the photoshpere is just regular equirectangular image.
22:37:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway isn't this ice amazing: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eejt7nnbu5ephrq/AAAR-Jrfg0V8nFPwYKG8_VNGa?dl=0#lh:null-DSC_0069.JPG
22:38:16 <fizzie> The aspect ratio is exactly 2, which would make sense for a 360x180 degree equirectangular image, and the top/bottom edge distortions look like that too.
22:38:30 <fizzie> (Since both edges are really just points.)
22:38:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah is is annoying that you get varying pixel sizes in panoramas
22:39:39 <fizzie> Nice ice. No pun intended.
22:39:57 <fizzie> I was taking some macro photos of our frozen balcony glasses back in Finland, but haven't had time to put them anywhere.
22:40:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is phone camera, not really macro
22:40:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, from the Xperia Z2
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22:42:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I have an awkward vertical 4K video from my phone here, about 5 seconds. Yeah I don't think I'm very good at videos...
22:43:33 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150324-20100215_001.jpg this is kind of in the same category, although a bit less frozen. (From 2010, taken with the N900.)
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22:44:25 <Vorpal> Holy crap, this 4K video is 149 MB and just 24 seconds long
22:44:29 <Vorpal> I'm not uploading that
22:45:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, it may be obvious from this image, but the path was really a stream at this point https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eejt7nnbu5ephrq/AAAR-Jrfg0V8nFPwYKG8_VNGa?dl=0#lh:null-DSC_0364.JPG
22:45:44 <Vorpal> it is also quite a steep slope
22:47:15 <fizzie> I took photos of all the Google Android sculptures they have on the lawn.
22:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should try photo mapping
22:47:46 <Vorpal> as in 3D reconstruction
22:48:21 <fizzie> I don't think I have enough frames for that, didn't really have that in mind. Which is silly, because back in Finland I was wondering where I'd find a nice recognizable shape for a statue.
22:48:25 <Vorpal> also btw, I wonder how accurate that 3D mapping is? Could you reconstruct with a street with meter accuracy?
22:49:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe next visit.
22:49:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, wouldn't recording video be perfect for this? Just extract the video frames...
22:49:17 <Vorpal> Or is the quality too bad?
22:49:33 <fizzie> There's the motion blur problem.
22:49:57 <Vorpal> You could try to filter for non-blurry images
22:50:25 <fizzie> Yes. I'm not sure if any of those 4 links I mention explicitly do video, but I'm sure I've seen some stuff related to it.
22:51:22 <fizzie> The first thing (Bundler) is associated with this fancy thing: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/projects/bigsfm/
22:51:37 <fizzie> It's about doing large-scale models from large photo datasets that weren't really intended for that purpose.
22:52:08 <fizzie> While the VisualSFM workflow is kind of more oriented around you taking a bunch of pictures of a particular thing you want to reconstruct.
22:56:55 <fizzie> People having been doing SfM from the Google Street View images, I know that.
22:57:23 <fizzie> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5457551 is something a quick search turned up.
22:57:41 <fizzie> I don't know if we've published any papers in the topic.
22:58:46 <fizzie> Wonder how many individual photos the Street View collection is. It's probably a big number.
23:02:10 <fizzie> Heh, "Incremental plane-based reconstruction and exploration of buildings in old postcards".
23:03:50 <fizzie> Title was more interesting than the contents, to be honest.
23:04:07 <fizzie> (Not Google-related at all, just browsing.)
23:05:32 <fizzie> http://vision.princeton.edu/projects/2014/readjustment/paper.pdf is probably relevant wrt how accurate you can get with photos.
23:13:35 <fizzie> I like this stuff; it's a shame people aren't doing the same with audio.
23:14:56 <fizzie> Record some arbitrary signal with N microphones, reconstruct the 3D environment around it. Might be "slightly" more ill-conditioned problem.
23:16:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, though I was more wondering on the global measurement accuracy. Could you for example use this to improve something like openstreetmap?
23:18:58 <fizzie> How physical-reality-accurate is OpenStreetMap trying to be, anyway?
23:19:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, as good as possible, though it depends on the individual contributor I assume
23:20:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have contributed some stuff to it for example. And it depended on my input data in each case how accurate I could be.
23:20:51 <fizzie> Physical accuracy might not be absolutely critical (I mean, below the scale of, say, 1m) for many of their use cases, though.
23:21:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, but air-based imagery in hilly terrain has some issues when not taken from straight above
23:21:35 <fizzie> That's spooky, I went to maps.google.com and it knows where I am.
23:21:45 <Vorpal> In some cases, such as mapping trails in nature reserves, all I have is my GPS traces, with maybe a 10-20 meter accuracy if conditions are bad
23:21:57 <fizzie> I mean, on a desktop browser. And I don't mean the city, I mean the exact location.
23:22:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I always click "don't share location" when I get such questions
23:22:57 <fizzie> I mean, it didn't show the "website wants to know your location" thing. Although it's quite possible I've given it permission.
23:23:16 <fizzie> Incidentally, IP geolocation puts our home DSL into Topcliffe, UK.
23:23:33 <fizzie> That's somewhere north of Leeds, and very much not where we are.
23:24:22 <fizzie> (It's something like 300 km off.)
23:24:40 <fizzie> Well, maybe 200-300. Anyway.
23:24:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe google checks the ping from all their servers and uses that?
23:25:54 <fizzie> Heh. Or maybe it's tied to my logged-in Android device with location reporting. (Hey, they paid for it.)
23:26:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, you should be able to deal with hills and such when mapping using SFM on the ground I think.
23:26:35 <Vorpal> If it is accurate enough
23:26:48 <Vorpal> And you have some way to calibrate or measure a base distance
23:27:44 <fizzie> Mmmaybe. If you don't get a single frame out of the whole thing you're mapping, though, you might end up with accumulating error, like when using accelerometer-based things.
23:31:13 <fizzie> "When you activate the My Location feature, Google Maps asks your web browser for your location. Typically, your browser uses information about the Wi-Fi access points around you to estimate your location."
23:31:30 <fizzie> Maybe they know of an access point in this building, or somethin... wait a minute, this desktop doesn't have wifi.
23:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was thinking you would carefully take photos of a city block or two that is on a hill, and some features on flat terrain nearby, then you could create a 3D model, and calculate a orthographic projection straight above from it, and use that to create the map
23:32:41 <fizzie> "If no Wi-Fi access points are in range, or your computer doesn't have Wi-Fi, it may resort to using your computer's IP address to get an approximate location." Well, it's not doing that. Unless Google's getting my ISP's subscriber information or something, which sounds unlikely.
23:32:55 <fizzie> Maybe I should check in Javascript console what the JS geolocation API returns.
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23:34:21 <fizzie> Hmm. Well, doing that in the JS console did pop up the "... wants to use your computer's location" box, so they're not using that.
23:34:26 <fizzie> I'm going to guess it's device-based, then.
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23:47:54 <orin> are you on a mac?
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00:30:22 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA! *krssshhht* the cookies are home *khkhhhssshhh* over *rrkrhhshttt*
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03:54:43 <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djG0j3bpCLQ
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05:03:30 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/clarus/falso
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05:12:21 <ProofTechnique> Well, I'll have to get a dissertation out the door at once.
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05:26:27 <elliott> J_Arcane: I was disappointed to find out that Coq's trusted kernel core is much more code than I thought it was (30,000+ lines).
05:26:49 <elliott> (Agda is even less stable though.)
05:26:58 <elliott> (I guess HOL Light or Metamath or whatever are the only options if you want a core you can actually trust.)
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07:38:31 <oerjan> <cpressey> so is there only one ring over the rationals? <-- argh of course not
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07:40:58 <oerjan> @tell cpressey <cpressey> what about <Q,+,|> where a|b = 2*a*b <-- that is indeed a ring, but almost trivially so: \x -> 2*x is an isomorphism between that and the ordinary ring of rationals.
07:42:42 <oerjan> @tell cpressey hm it may be that all nontrivial rings that share the same addition as the rationals have to be like that.
07:44:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, of course not. the zero ring isn't like that, for one.
07:45:24 <oerjan> well that's the only one, and me just the value of 2 = 0 :P
07:45:43 <oerjan> and in fact that was the ring i tried to exclude with "nontrivial"
07:46:11 <oerjan> i think it's fairly simply actually
07:46:45 <oerjan> you use the distributive law to show that n|x = n*(1|x)
07:47:10 <b_jonas> if the ring has a unit (but not necessarily 1 as the unit) then I think it has to be the same
07:47:54 <oerjan> is what you end up with, i think
07:50:15 <oerjan> q*((p/q)|a) = (p/1)|a = p*(1|a) by distributive law, so ((p/q)|a) = p/q*(1|a)
07:53:07 <FreeFull> You can define an operation o(x,y) = log(e^x + e^y)
07:53:40 <oerjan> @tell cpressey for p,q integers, q*((p/q)|a) = (p/1)|a = p*(1|a) by splitting p and q into sums of 1 and using the distributive law, so ((p/q)|a) = p/q*(1|a), i.e. b|a = b*(1|a) and by mirror argument = b*a*(1|1)
07:54:07 <oerjan> FreeFull: that's not within the rationals
07:54:33 <FreeFull> I was just thinking about the relation between addition and multiplication
07:55:21 <FreeFull> That operation with addition should form a ring over reals, I think
07:55:23 <oerjan> s/me just the value/is the special case&
07:55:31 <FreeFull> Actually, reals + negative infinity
07:55:57 <FreeFull> You need to adjoin the negative infinity as the identity element
07:56:17 <oerjan> yes, because addition and multiplication aren't groups with the exact elements
07:56:33 <oerjan> so shifting must compensate
07:56:52 <FreeFull> I'm not actually a mathematician
07:57:29 <oerjan> basically, f(x) = e^x is a monoid homomorphism from addition to multiplication
07:57:42 <oerjan> oh and of course it's also missing all the negative numbers
07:59:33 <FreeFull> Yeah, unless you go into the complex numbers
08:00:06 <oerjan> you don't get a ring but maybe a semiring
08:00:19 <oerjan> because o doesn't have inverses
08:01:07 <oerjan> complexes doesn't really help, you get a multivalued mess
08:03:22 <oerjan> problem is, i*i*i*i = 1 or even just (-1)*(-1) = 1 means complex multiplication cannot be isomorphic to addition
08:03:37 <oerjan> actually the latter applies to reals too
08:04:38 <FreeFull> Wait, is x^(log(y)) = y^(log(x)) if x and y are positive?
08:05:03 <oerjan> hm they're both e^(log(x)log(y))
08:05:05 <int-e> . o O ( no, of course not ... err, yes it is. )
08:06:00 <FreeFull> Does exp(log(x)log(y)) have any useful properties if we restrict ourselves to positive reals?
08:06:25 <int-e> (This was my spontaneous reaction, followed by the same rewriting that oerjan demonstrated.)
08:06:26 <oerjan> sure, then it _is_ isomorphic to ordinary addition on all the reals
08:06:57 * oerjan is having trouble keeping the directions straight in his head
08:07:30 <int-e> multiplication on the positive reals is isomorphic to addition on the reals
08:08:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: what you wrote is "obviously" isomorphic to _multiplication_ on all the reals
08:09:08 <oerjan> and so it's a ring together with ordinary multiplication on the positive reals, by int-e's comment
08:10:20 <int-e> Ah, right. We're solving "If addition were ordinary multiplication on the positive reals, what would multiplication look like?"
08:10:57 <int-e> Just trying to clarify by confusion.
08:11:19 <int-e> (It rarely works, but it's often a lot of fun.)
08:11:40 <oerjan> FreeFull: exp(1/log(x)) i assume
08:12:19 <FreeFull> Ah, yeah, that would fit the bill
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08:16:19 <int-e> That reminds me that in a first year course I once proved that f(x,y) = (x + y) / (1 - x y) (on R + { oo })) is a group operation by pointing out the homomorphism to R / 2piZ... that wasn't the expected solution :P
08:17:06 <int-e> Sorry, R / (piZ) of course.
08:17:18 <FreeFull> Why not write inf rather than oo?
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08:17:36 <int-e> because oo is cuter.
08:18:28 <int-e> I did, together with a comment along the lines of "that's a nifty solution but you need a lot more theory to show that property of arctan than is required for solving this problem."
08:18:48 <int-e> FreeFull: ∞ is ugly here.
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08:19:42 <oerjan> int-e: did you know arctanh gives a homomorphism between ordinary addition and the special relativistic velocity addition formula?
08:20:14 <oerjan> that formula is the same as your, except with + instead of -
08:20:44 <int-e> oerjan: I knew the latter, but not the velocity addition formula.
08:21:30 <int-e> (I may have seen it, but then it would've been obscured by some extra speeds of light (c))
08:22:22 <FreeFull> Something involving 1/(1 - v^2/c^2)
08:22:55 <mroman> http://codepad.org/HnoU7WuO
08:23:31 <oerjan> a bit more bots and we _all_ need to add the HackEgo zero-width space
08:26:42 <oerjan> is that a Basic/Pascal/Forth hybrid
08:27:19 <oerjan> it like rings 3 different nostalgia bells
08:29:15 <oerjan> and gives me the feeling i'm missing more
08:29:43 <oerjan> especially that D5.0 D-1.1+(5(+:@ line
08:29:48 <mroman> it's supposed to be a nostalgia hybrid yes
08:29:57 <int-e> Line 18 must be an ed reference.
08:30:16 <mroman> http://codepad.org/OASg3VqQ <- that's MATH.LIB btw
08:30:20 <mroman> not much in there yet though :)
08:38:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42182&oldid=40160 * 160.85.232.153 * (-423)
08:40:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42183&oldid=42182 * 160.85.232.153 * (+320) /* Example */
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09:15:29 <mroman> oerjan: D is just the prefix for doubles.
09:17:49 <Taneb> oerjan, I need to get that bot I was writing in Agda working
09:17:54 <mroman> + is addition, or concat for lists.
09:18:01 <mroman> ( takes an element and puts it into a list
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09:31:17 <mroman> but this time not that many builtin as burlesque ;)
09:31:35 <mroman> because I want people to be able to write interpreters/compilers for it :)
09:31:47 <oerjan> int-e: looks like gil is finally showing up
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09:43:50 <Taneb> Who wants to hear a useless fact?
09:44:45 <Taneb> There are 8 different pedestrian bridges in the British Isles called the Millennium Bridge
09:45:49 <oerjan> clearly that's because of too many overlapping timelines
09:46:02 <oerjan> i suggesting calling a Doctor
09:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42184&oldid=42183 * 160.85.232.153 * (+114) /* Language Reference */ + draft.
09:59:12 <mroman> started working on the ESOSC draft for it :D
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10:16:05 <mroman> Taneb, nortti: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Taworvor#Language_Reference
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10:21:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vriskanon * New user account
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11:55:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42185 * Vriskanon * (+6129) Rough tutorial and example code for the Programming Language "Duck Duck Goose"
11:56:37 <nortti> mroman: what is the meaning of nss? afaiu it is one char that is not ^, then whiespace?
11:57:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42186&oldid=42170 * Vriskanon * (+22) /* D */
12:01:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42187&oldid=42185 * Vriskanon * (+302)
12:01:37 <mroman> I think that should've been nss = { n }, ss;
12:02:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42188&oldid=42187 * Vriskanon * (+11)
12:03:30 <mroman> but the ss can be dropped
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12:03:33 <mroman> n includes spaces anyway
12:08:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42189&oldid=42188 * Vriskanon * (+40) Included credit where it's due
12:08:31 <cpressey> lambdabot: give me my messages
12:11:06 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Taworvor/blob/master/TESTS.PROG should cover pretty much everything now.
12:11:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42190&oldid=42189 * 91.231.90.102 * (+7) He wants me to put his surname on
12:12:49 <mroman> nortti: nss should eat everything between e.g. ^DESC and ^IS
12:13:15 <cpressey> @tell oerjan so there's more than one ring over the rationals; that's what i suspected/all i wanted to know. thanks.
12:13:21 <mroman> so nss = n, { n }; should do that
12:14:07 <mroman> although I think we could go with nss = { n } even
12:14:17 <mroman> makes no sense to force one character DESCs :D
12:15:34 <mroman> k. pushed with nss = { n};
12:19:37 <izabera> `` { echo 'elliott ' ; printf '%s\n' {a..z} ; } > random_elliott; shuf --random-source /dev/zero random_elliott | tr -d '\n'
12:19:39 <HackEgo> elliott abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
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12:27:46 <cpressey> @tell oerjan in your monad-over-finite-lists, is that "finite and fixed length" or "finite but unbounded length"? because if the latter, that would count, in strict/eager functional programming (I don't see why not anyway)
12:30:07 <cpressey> not sure how "proof that there is only one (or none) possible algebraic structure y of Y over set X" proofs generally go, if it all. quantifying over operations, nasty business
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12:47:35 <cpressey> especially when X is infinite. if X is finite, you can probably enumerate the possibilities. e.g. the boolean ring, I wouldn't be surprised if it was unique
12:48:14 <cpressey> or maybe it and a topsy-turvy dual of it where true is false and false is true
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13:46:45 <cpressey> ok n/m "the boolean ring", doesn't mean what i thought it meant. instead, "the possible rings over the set {0, 1}".
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14:11:01 <Taneb> cpressey, does the ring's 0 have to be 0?
14:14:18 <cpressey> the ring's 0 has to satisfy 0*x = 0 and 0+x = x, for all x, i believe. (i guess "be zero" is kind of a fuzzy way of saying just that :)
14:15:02 <Taneb> I mean, does it have to be the one you have assigned the symbol "0" to when defining the set {0,1}?
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14:25:53 <cpressey> Taneb: no. this would apply equally to any two-element set.
14:35:42 <cpressey> searching for "ring with two elements" gets lots of hits saying "all rings with two elements are isomorphic" and "there is one ring with two elements" (in which i imagine is implied "up to isomorphism")
14:36:17 <cpressey> but i have yet to see anything saying "every set with 2 elements has exactly two rings"
14:36:45 <cpressey> because ring theorists don't care about the concrete bits. they care about the isomorphisms
14:41:28 <cpressey> this whole thing may encourage me to learn to use quickcheck
14:41:38 <cpressey> as a way to search for counterexamples
14:56:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:JSFuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42191 * Esowiki201529A * (+41) Created page with "new Array().filter(callbackfn[, thisArg])"
14:57:34 <coppro> but of course, because the concrete bits are boring
14:57:38 <mroman> fwiw http://mroman.ch/burlesque/lref.html is back online.
14:58:02 <coppro> you take the symmetry group of the set, mod out by the automorphisms of the ring, and then you get all the different rings on the set
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15:08:05 <mroman> mitchs: https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque
15:09:25 <mroman> However, I can see 47 new built-ins that were added (but are not yet on anagol) and are utterly not documented at all
15:11:52 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/master/Burlesque/Eval.hs#L532
15:11:57 <mroman> built-ins after L532 are new
15:12:10 <mroman> and not documented, not on anagol.
15:13:34 <mitchs> fyi i have a few more ones that i want to work on in whitespace, and after that i'll try to get better at burlesque
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15:13:56 <mitchs> idk how i'll do with it, there are a lot of built ins and i'm only superficially familiar with haskell
15:14:50 <cpressey> coppro: my greater point with all this (if you care) is that the concrete bits are boring to mathematicians (as they should be) but not to programmers (who, alas, must get their hands dirty)
15:21:53 <cpressey> coppro: also, I'm interested to know if "the list monad" means "the usual list monad" or "the unique list monad" -- in case you care about that
15:22:23 <cpressey> I have yet to see examples of other list monads; I have yet to see a proof that there are no others
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16:35:17 <mroman> what's this new paper about in-memory vs. disk
16:35:39 <mroman> using += to concat strings in Java is stupid as hell from the start.
16:36:53 <mroman> and what does it have to do with computing?
16:40:51 <mroman> does not block until all data is written out, does it?
16:41:02 <mroman> I thought it just means "well... the OS has it now"
16:41:09 <mroman> doesn't mean that it's on disk actually just yet.
16:43:39 <mroman> also.. if the computation is concatenation
16:43:47 <mroman> then to get the result you'd have to read it back into memory?
16:44:04 <mroman> which probably works faster because what you just have written out is still in some memory buffer so the disk isn't even actually used?
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16:44:53 <mroman> given that you just want it to have concatenated on file then yes, probably just writing it has less overhead than concating it in memory first
16:45:11 <mroman> also... if you write every piece immediately to file you'll probably have a better memory footprint as well.
16:47:00 <mroman> but... essentially it means that doing a shitload of memcpy because you have to realloc and memcpy all the time because strings are imutable I guess isn't very fast anyway
16:47:25 <mroman> I want the same benchmark with linked strings!
16:47:38 <mroman> anyway it's a stupid benchmark.
16:48:14 <cpressey> flushing... need not block until all data is written out afaiu; that's fsync's job, isn't it?
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16:49:42 <mroman> I thought flush just means that you flushed your "internal buffer" and have given all the data to the OS somehow
16:49:50 <mroman> but it might still be in a write buffer of the OS
16:50:09 <mroman> "We also see that immutable strings are not inherently a problem, as evidenced by Python’s much better performance with the modified code.
16:50:14 <mroman> ^- that's just plain bullshit?
16:50:26 <cpressey> Note that fflush() only flushes the user-space buffers provided by the C library. To ensure that the data is
16:50:27 <mroman> If you want to do concatenation then immutable strings ARE the problem.
16:50:29 <cpressey> physically stored on disk the kernel buffers must be flushed too, for example, with sync(2) or fsync(2).
16:51:20 <mroman> "Java performance numbers did not change when the concatenation order was reversed in the code in Appendix 1. However, using a mutable data type such as StringBuilder or StringBuffer dramatically improved the results."
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16:51:44 <mroman> That's what StringBuilders are for :D
16:51:56 <mroman> cpressey: Did you read the paper?
16:52:04 <cpressey> a paper that says that immutable strings are not the problem, then describes improvement when using mutable strings ok
16:52:11 <cpressey> no, i don't even know what this is
16:52:14 <mroman> They do string concatenation and measure how long it takes
16:52:17 <cpressey> not sure i want to know, frankly
16:52:25 <mroman> then instead of string concatenation they just write it to file
16:52:33 <mroman> loop: string += someData
16:52:41 <mroman> loop: fwrite(fhandle, someData)
16:52:56 <cpressey> fantastic, let's abuse the file buffers as string buffers
16:53:03 <mroman> they just do repeated string concatenations
16:53:15 <mroman> cpressey: they don't read the file back anyway
16:53:27 <cpressey> mroman: where did you find this thing?
16:53:41 <mroman> http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1503/1503.02678.pdf
16:54:17 <mroman> but I call TOTAL ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT on this paper.
16:55:01 <cpressey> well, you know what they *don't* say... "Publish non-bullshit or perish."
16:56:26 <mroman> It was linked on slashdot
16:56:32 <mroman> and the comments there pretty much support my view :D
16:57:43 <mroman> and it was written by a biology guy?
16:58:28 <mroman> "In this paper we use code inspired by real, production software" yeah right...
16:58:36 <int-e> "naive string concatenation is a quadratic time operation"
16:59:26 <mroman> there are so many details missing
16:59:34 <mroman> what type of RAM, what type of Disk was used
17:00:01 <mroman> "Java 8 was used to compile the test code
17:00:06 <mroman> Java 8 can compile things?
17:01:29 <mroman> "In the examples of inefficient code that inspired this paper, and we suspect is many other similar cases, the developers have done what they have been trained to do, carefully reducing disk access, but the approach is obviously failing."
17:01:52 <int-e> mroman: It doesn't matter. An O(n^2) algorithm will be slower than an O(n) one if you pick n large enough.
17:02:07 <int-e> But from that perspective, you can condens the "paper" into one paragraph.
17:02:21 <mroman> what the hell does this have to do with web applications o_O
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17:02:35 <mroman> I'm not going to write to a temp file and then read it for string concatenation o_O
17:02:47 <mroman> it probably won't even spin up the disk due to buffers
17:03:03 <int-e> A lot, assembling strings by concatenating small parts is *very* common.
17:03:41 <int-e> And streaming helps to relieve some memory pressure (now there would be another paragraph for the "paper", but they do not touch upon that part of the problem).
17:04:07 <mroman> small string concat is indeed very common yes
17:04:17 <mroman> but since you need to deliver the "end result" to the client
17:04:28 <int-e> Don't get me wrong, it's an awful paper all around. It's overselling a trivial problem and to top it off, it's drawing the wrong conclusions.
17:04:40 <mroman> php already does streaming anyway?
17:05:01 <mroman> of course just writing to a network socket is probably better than concating it in memory and then write it to the socket
17:05:22 <mroman> especially using immutable strings
17:05:38 <mroman> but they don't even get to that point
17:06:20 <cpressey> it's not like the java architects haven't thought about this problem
17:06:45 <cpressey> tl;dr i share your facepalm mroman
17:07:06 <int-e> I think we all agree on that.
17:08:19 <int-e> (I'm just defending the point that the observed problem is real.)
17:08:21 <mroman> Seems php doesn't do streaming?
17:08:39 <mroman> there's ob_flush at least hm.
17:08:45 <mroman> (I don't know PHP at all)
17:09:16 <int-e> "Why do you want to use a StringBuilder? Strings in php are mutable. Therefore performance is not an issue." - because mutability solves all performance issues!
17:10:40 <mroman> php has mutable strings?
17:14:46 <int-e> You sound surprised, don't youb know that PHP implements all bad ideas found in other programming languages ;)
17:17:53 <mroman> I'm surprised you can publish something like this :)
17:18:35 <mroman> and what I know about PHP is that uhm...
17:18:40 <mroman> it has these weird things like register_globals?
17:19:18 <mroman> which I think works like that that it automatically manipulates the input from the user
17:19:33 <mroman> so you don't get the actual user input
17:19:47 <myname> in php, == isn't transitive
17:19:48 <mroman> and then doing some string concat for buildin an SQL query
17:19:49 <int-e> wtf. They're using concatString = addString + concatString .......
17:20:13 <mroman> You have to check if a = a + b is faster than a = b + a or not
17:20:18 <int-e> but then their "disk writing" code is not even equivalent.
17:20:22 <int-e> mroman: well, it is!
17:20:24 <myname> e.g. false == 0 && 0 == "0" && false != "0"
17:20:52 <mroman> My newest esolang will have ====
17:21:20 <mroman> because == tries some automatic conversions
17:21:28 <mroman> "0" === 0 will be false because not same type
17:21:33 <mroman> 0 === 0 is obviously true
17:21:51 <mroman> $a = 0; $b = 0; $a === $b; will be true
17:21:58 <mroman> however, $a ==== $b; won't
17:22:09 <olsner> more equal signs should mean that it tries harder to make things equal, so that e.g. 0 ================== 1
17:22:17 <mroman> because ==== checks if both are the same variables!
17:22:23 <mroman> $a ==== $a is in fact true
17:22:24 <myname> mroman: how is thaz any useful?
17:22:41 <mroman> myname: well it's probably useful when call by reference is used?
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17:22:52 <mroman> func foo($a, $b) { return $a ==== $b; }
17:23:08 <mroman> foo($a, $a); will be true but foo($a, $b); won't?
17:23:23 <myname> but in foo they are different variable
17:23:33 <mroman> but the same reference!
17:23:40 <mroman> so ==== would essentially compare references
17:24:24 <myname> i thought about using = as a unary symbol and making prime numbers variables
17:24:57 <myname> like ======7 would set the var 5 to the value 7
17:24:59 <mroman> only compares constants
17:25:41 <myname> =======7 would compare var 5 with value 7
17:25:55 <mroman> 5 ==== 5 would probably not be true since it's probably treated as new Integer(5) == new Integer(5)?
17:27:17 <cpressey> Do NOT try to reason about PHP.
17:29:12 <int-e> next you'll tell us not to do surgery with a tea spoon
17:51:54 <cpressey> i'm only trying to save your souls
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18:56:50 <orin> php is basically built so that copypaste programs can work
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19:22:02 <lambdabot> LOWI 251850Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW050 SCT065 BKN080 11/04 Q1001 NOSIG
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19:23:03 <elliott> izabera: I was about to ask what the intended purpose of random_elliott was
19:23:11 <elliott> it was very confusing thanks to just having woken up
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19:34:32 <izabera> you said that with the right random source you could use shuf just like cat
19:35:12 <int-e> ` echo 123 | sort | shuf | cat | tac
19:35:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:35:15 <int-e> `` echo 123 | sort | shuf | cat | tac
19:38:31 <elliott> izabera: yeah, I realised that pretty quickly, hehe
19:38:47 <elliott> izabera: I was just like "is this a command to print random letters at me? what is this for? why me? help?"
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19:54:22 <lambdabot> cpressey said 7h 41m 6s ago: so there's more than one ring over the rationals; that's what i suspected/all i wanted to know. thanks.
19:54:23 <lambdabot> cpressey said 7h 26m 36s ago: in your monad-over-finite-lists, is that "finite and fixed length" or "finite but unbounded length"? because if the latter, that would count, in strict/eager functional programming (I don't see why not anyway)
19:55:00 <oerjan> @tell cpressey finite but unbounded length, is the intention.
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20:05:16 <elliott> oerjan: are you sure it's a monad btw?
20:05:20 <elliott> you have a bad history with monads on [] :P
20:06:03 <oerjan> i think it is a monad but who is ever sure.
20:06:16 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, I wonder when Cheyenne will get around to coloring the March 4th and 13th comics...
20:06:45 <oerjan> the first monad law is obviously true by construction. the second is nearly obvious.
20:07:12 <oerjan> the third needs a bit of thinking, but i think it is true.
20:09:03 <oerjan> @let dbind [x] f = f x; dbind l f | all ((==1).length) l' = concat l' where l' = map f l
20:10:38 <oerjan> @check \x f g -> (((x::[Int]) `dbind` f :: [Int]) `dbind` g :: [Int]) == x `dbind` \t -> f t `dbind` g
20:10:40 <lambdabot> *** Failed! (after 3 tests and 4 shrinks):
20:10:40 <lambdabot> Exception: L.hs:(157,1)-(159,20): Non-exhaustive patterns in function dbind ...
20:11:19 <oerjan> @let dbind [x] f = f x; dbind l f | all ((==1).length) l' = concat l' | otherwise = [] where l' = map f l
20:11:26 <oerjan> @check \x f g -> (((x::[Int]) `dbind` f :: [Int]) `dbind` g :: [Int]) == x `dbind` \t -> f t `dbind` g
20:12:22 <oerjan> int-e: if it's not done already it'll probably be "whenever" up until actual printed version
20:13:42 <oerjan> @check \x -> ((x::[Int]) `dbind` return) == x
20:15:01 <oerjan> @tell cpressey Checked my monad with @check hth
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20:20:35 <oerjan> int-e: is it getting 7.10 now?
20:21:06 <int-e> I'm waiting for the official release.
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20:24:43 <elliott> int-e: hm, do you maintain lambdabot now?
20:26:19 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
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21:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42192&oldid=42190 * 81.102.250.85 * (+67) inspiration
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21:46:00 <ais523> I'm here, but not elliott (as opposed to elliott, who is elliott but not here)
21:46:14 <Vorpal> I have no idea if this exists or not... Something like vnc that uses the GPU on the server to render and then compresses the data for reasonable transfer speed, the one you mentioned the other day didn't do OpenGL stuff did it?
21:46:43 <elliott> I don't know. it's good, anyway.
21:46:45 <Vorpal> Then this might be salvagble
21:46:47 <ais523> something like that, you'd /expect/ it to use OpenGL
21:46:55 <elliott> you can also adjust it to use lossless compression or lossy H.264 or whatever
21:47:15 <elliott> I wouldn't, like, watch youtube videos with it, though.
21:47:19 <ais523> not sure how many servers have working DirectX, and there currently are no other graphics APIs that are nearly as popular
21:47:33 <ais523> well youtube is sending H.264 or WebM anyway
21:47:47 <ais523> so decoding and re-encoding the video could only make things worse
21:48:02 <Vorpal> ais523, well I want it to reasonably be able to run a program using OpenGL, the client I'm connecting from has old old intel graphics
21:48:15 <Vorpal> The desktop I want to remote to has a reasonable AMD GPU
21:49:15 <Vorpal> And I want to use some programs that are GPU heavy (as in GPGPU with OpenCL + OpenGL visualization)
21:50:07 <Vorpal> Though it appears debian has a super old xpra version
21:50:20 <Vorpal> Oh no, there is a backports
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21:50:39 <Vorpal> which is newer than the version I want to connect from, on an ubuntu laptop
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21:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42193&oldid=42192 * Vriskanon * (+407) Moved the Tutorial/List_of_Instructions to a table
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21:59:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42194&oldid=42193 * Vriskanon * (-82) Fixed 10 Ducks (Loop Ends)
22:00:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42195&oldid=42194 * Vriskanon * (+0) Put a Y in the 10 Ducks row where N should have been.
22:03:29 <Vorpal> Yeah that didn't work, time to try to find compatible versions
22:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42196&oldid=42195 * Vriskanon * (+0)
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22:04:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, once you install exactly the same version on both sides, it works
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22:11:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42197&oldid=42196 * Vriskanon * (+317) More Clear Sections
22:11:15 <Vorpal> X Error of failed request: BadRequest (invalid request code or no such operation)
22:11:15 <Vorpal> Major opcode of failed request: 135 (GLX)
22:11:15 <Vorpal> Minor opcode of failed request: 19 (X_GLXQueryServerString)
22:11:15 <Vorpal> Serial number of failed request: 12
22:11:16 <Vorpal> Current serial number in output stream: 12
22:11:32 <Vorpal> It works fine for none opengl stuff though
22:11:47 <Vorpal> x11vnc might be worth a try
22:11:51 <elliott> How do I enable OpenGL or other X11 extensions on the server?
22:11:51 <elliott> Please see Xdummy, for acceleration see virtualgl
22:11:58 <elliott> https://www.xpra.org/trac/wiki/Xdummy http://www.virtualgl.org/
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22:12:23 <elliott> The best way to deal with this is to use VirtualGL to take advantage of the OpenGL acceleration provided by the graphics card, just run: vglrun yourapplication.
22:13:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42198&oldid=42197 * Vriskanon * (+62)
22:13:01 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as it is the server that is doing the rendering I'm happy
22:13:02 <elliott> http://www.virtualgl.org/About/Introduction yeah
22:13:04 <elliott> this looks like what you want
22:13:24 <Vorpal> elliott, because the client can't do opengl for shit. It is a core 2 duo and intel graphics
22:14:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42199 * Vriskanon * (+134) Who is Vriskanon
22:15:12 <Vorpal> elliott, need to build it, doesn't appear to be packaged... And yeah
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22:25:42 <oerjan> @tell int-e it seems like the fix to Typeable introduced the new bug that is currently holding up ghc :P https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2015-March/008570.html
22:29:08 <oerjan> well there's also a haddock problem. and spj just went on vacation.
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22:37:23 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I can't get virtualgl to work inside xpra, though it does work natively on the machine
22:37:52 <elliott> virtualgl xpra-server-i-forget-how-you-start-it ...
22:37:59 <elliott> or xpra --xpra-server-thing=virtualgl blahhh idk
22:38:06 <elliott> if you google xpra virtualgl there's probably something
22:38:26 <elliott> https://www.xpra.org/trac/ticket/320
22:38:55 <elliott> https://www.xpra.org/trac/wiki/Xdummy might help too
22:41:04 <Vorpal> I read both of those already :/
22:41:28 <Vorpal> "Proprietary drivers often install their own copy of libGL which conflicts with the use of software GL rendering. You cannot use this GL library to render directly on Xdummy (or Xvfb).
22:41:28 <Vorpal> The best way to deal with this is to use VirtualGL to take advantage of the OpenGL acceleration provided by the graphics card, just run: vglrun yourapplication."
22:41:41 <Vorpal> The former is the case, but the latter should deal with this I thought?
22:41:52 <elliott> well, how are you actually doing it
22:41:56 <elliott> like where are you putting vglrun
22:42:28 <Vorpal> in an xterm opened over xpra I'm trying to run vglrun glxgears (as a test)
22:42:43 <Vorpal> I figure that getting glxgears to work should be the most basic step
22:42:52 <elliott> well, idk. can't really debug from "doesn't work"
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22:42:57 <elliott> but maybe you need to do the "+extension GLX +extension RANDR +extension RENDER" thing
22:43:46 <Vorpal> xvfb=Xorg -dpi 96 -noreset -nolisten tcp +extension GLX +extension RANDR +extension RENDER -logfile ${HOME}/.xpra/Xorg.${DISPLAY}.log -config /etc/xpra/xorg.conf
22:43:52 <Vorpal> yeah it is already there, checked that
22:43:58 <Vorpal> That is the default setup
22:44:13 <elliott> I dunno, you haven't even told me the error or anything :p I'm no expert though
22:44:16 <elliott> I'd just dig in logs and stuff
22:44:34 <elliott> and try vglrun wrapping different things
22:44:51 <Vorpal> Yeah tried glxinfo too, no luck
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22:44:57 <Vorpal> Right, bug 320 does seem a bit more relevant
22:45:13 <Vorpal> It mentions fglrx issues...
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22:48:18 <Vorpal> elliott, might be worth trying something like turbovnc + virtualgl though
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22:52:16 <int-e> oerjan: #10176 is the bug (hmm, and the fix doesn't touch any of the code that was changed by the Typeable patch, isn't that fun.) I hear (on #ghc) that Austin is struggling with the haddock thing.
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23:11:37 <zzo38> Have you created any RDF namespaces or any XML namespaces or any UUIDs?
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23:38:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uuidgen: not found
23:39:03 <ais523> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
23:39:04 <HackEgo> a8ce6013-1813-47c6-9f42-56be50696a28
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23:39:25 <ais523> is that what you were looking for? it's a kernelspace utility nowadays, not userspace, for some reason
23:39:46 <zzo38> Why is it kernelspace utility now?
23:40:20 <zzo38> I wrote my own version 1 UUID generator, but I want to know if you have used UUID you make up by yourself
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23:53:30 <elliott> ais523: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5873099/is-proc-sys-kernel-random-uuid-strong-keying-material
23:53:47 <elliott> okay so it's not one of the bad UUID formats
23:53:55 <ais523> haha, people are /seeding/ with that? :-)
23:54:00 <elliott> anyway I don't think uuidgen stopped existing or anything...
23:54:56 <ais523> but yes, if you're seeding, use /dev/random or /dev/urandom depending on why you're seeding
23:55:01 <elliott> it is a bit weird that the UUID logic is in kernelspace but I guess it's trivial enough
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23:55:02 <ais523> that's what they're /for/
23:55:05 <elliott> it's just like /dev/urandom really
23:55:11 <elliott> bu with formatting crap on top of it
23:55:23 <ais523> /dev/urandom is kernelspace for a good reason, though
23:55:31 <ais523> I don't think it's possible to implement in userspace
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23:55:43 <ais523> for the reason that /dev/random might have zero entropy the first time you try to access urandom1)
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23:58:20 <ais523> hmm, I should probably change aimake's GUID generation to use version 3 or 5 GUIDs
23:58:57 <ais523> because atm it's basically just using a truncated hash as the entire GUID, relying on the chance of collisions being basically 0 for uniqueness
00:01:19 <ais523> I'd better do that before NH4 is released
00:09:50 <elliott> GUID4 is the only one people actually use, I think...
00:10:09 <elliott> I forget what 3 and 5 are, though.
00:10:24 <elliott> I don't think it's a "GUID4" unless you're using (pseudo)random bits, though.
00:10:30 <elliott> (okay, a hash is like a PRNG with a very bad seed, or something.)
00:29:55 <ais523> elliott: 3 and 5 are the hash-based ones
00:30:14 <ais523> MD5 and SHA1 respectively
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00:31:12 <ais523> I used to use MD5 because it was the only hashing algorithm that worked with the oldest Perl version I supported
00:31:24 <ais523> in the end, I decided that that was just too awful, and dropped support for that version
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06:54:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42200&oldid=42198 * 81.102.250.85 * (+112) /* Duck Inputs */ Loop Ends
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08:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42201&oldid=42200 * 91.231.90.102 * (+0) /* How To Use */ Fixed /n.
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09:00:37 <mroman> What's this religious freedom bill?
09:00:42 <mroman> I can't seem to find the full text.
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09:19:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42202&oldid=42126 * Vriskanon * (+155) /* Examples */ Added Sollux's program to examples
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09:47:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42203&oldid=42199 * Vriskanon * (+92) /* Vriskanon */
09:47:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42204&oldid=42202 * Vriskanon * (+2158) Extrapolated a Tutorial
09:51:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42205&oldid=42204 * Vriskanon * (+16) /* Examples */ Changed Sollux program to be more accurate
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11:25:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42206&oldid=42205 * Vriskanon * (+1938) Added Bifurcation to the tutorial
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11:56:15 <b_jonas_> fungot, do you like murder mysteries?
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11:58:30 <fungot> mroman: does the small print is meant to make liftm f x a _function_. you can't.
11:59:03 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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13:09:56 <mroman> what was that other language beside rust?
13:15:37 <mroman> nvm i'll learn Rust next.
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13:52:34 <b_jonas> fungot, can you tell me about the conditional branch prediction and branch target prediction in modern CPUs?
13:52:35 <fungot> b_jonas: does formal semantics really matter?
13:53:01 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, it certainly does in this channel, for we want to abuse it
13:53:01 <fungot> b_jonas: to make it reality =d can you write anywhere?'
13:53:04 <ais523> hmm, I could easily interpret that line as being from someone other than fungot
13:53:04 <fungot> ais523: what is scan and are they the same? http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ gambit-list/ 2006-january/ 000540.html how'd you go about implementing an object system
13:53:20 <b_jonas> ais523: well, he does steal lines of others
13:53:22 <ais523> b_jonas: do you consider Pure BF an abuse of formal semantics?
13:54:54 <b_jonas> oh, I know what I wanted to ask you
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14:37:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Secretary]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42207&oldid=40984 * Vriskanon * (+8) Fixed Wingpad
14:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42208&oldid=42186 * Vriskanon * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added TillDeath
14:49:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hashes]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42209&oldid=39481 * Vriskanon * (+12) Fixed Name
14:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42210&oldid=32607 * Vriskanon * (+0) Fixed Name
14:50:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42211&oldid=42210 * Vriskanon * (-2)
14:52:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42212&oldid=38270 * Vriskanon * (-7) Fixed more names.
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15:18:32 <fungot> mroman: i just got up for a while before i can get away with optimizing whole programs to nothing.
15:19:15 <fungot> mroman: it can generate fortran code in any language other than english? dictionary doesn't know it! bwhaha! i'm just too fnord about it when scheme48 1.0 is in much more subtle.
15:19:35 <mroman> fungot: I'm so in subtle myself.
15:19:35 <fungot> mroman: a preprocessor for logic programming in haskell
15:20:05 <mroman> fungot: You should learn prolog.
15:20:06 <fungot> mroman: i'm workin' on it and i rewrite it for you? it tends to restart itself, and i'd like it
15:20:22 <mroman> Gee thanks. But you don't need to rewrite Prolog just for me <3
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15:55:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42213&oldid=30345 * Marinus * (-9) fixed broken link
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16:11:19 <cpressey> that's too bad, there should really be an oerjan command
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17:06:28 <orin> what's the incantation to have ls show the size of a directory properly
17:07:11 <ais523> depends on what you mean by "properly"
17:07:27 <orin> I mean the total size of all files inside it, plus it
17:07:55 <ais523> ls can't do that because the information isn't stored anywhere, it has to be calculated and that's really timeconsuming
17:08:00 <ais523> the program you probably want is called du
17:08:14 <orin> god damn it, windows shows that information
17:08:38 <orin> does du also ahow size of fiels
17:08:42 <ais523> orin: Windows shows it in the GUI but takes a while to calculate it; I don't think dir (the equivalent of ls) shows it
17:08:53 <ais523> you can use "du -a" to show size of files too
17:09:06 <b_jonas> it's scary what crazy dangerous and complicated hooks some people in informatics will try to jump through for 20% performance increases
17:09:10 <cpressey> Windows shows it growing in the UI, with no indication of how far it's gotten yet, which is bad UX imo
17:09:22 <ais523> also, you might want to use "--apparent-size" if you care about the size of the files themselves, rather than the amount of disk they use u
17:09:27 <cpressey> because copying Windows is always a great idea
17:09:33 <ais523> or "-h" or "--si" to get the answer in sensible units
17:09:40 <ais523> cpressey: it's probably the lazy impl
17:11:13 <orin> so the incantation is "du -sh --apparent-size".
17:11:42 <ais523> depending on what it is you're trying to calculate, perhaps
17:11:51 <ais523> it has options because people don't always use it for the same purpose
17:11:57 <ais523> in particular, when I want to know the total size of a directory
17:12:04 <ais523> it's normally because I want to know how much disk space it costs me
17:12:08 <ais523> so I leave out --apparent-size
17:12:13 <ais523> (I think "du" stands for "disk usage")
17:12:23 <orin> isn't THAT the apparent size?
17:12:30 <b_jonas> yes, I usually say either du -a or du -s
17:12:37 <b_jonas> sometimes with a sort after
17:13:43 <ais523> orin: no, apparent size is the number of bytes you'd get if you read every byte in the file
17:13:54 <ais523> which could be less than the size on disk due to metadata, padding, and the like
17:14:00 <ais523> or more because the file is stored in a compressed format
17:14:34 <ais523> that's a special case of a compressed format, IMO
17:15:04 <Melvar> It might be the most common case for this purpose though.
17:15:09 <orin> ais523: i ... see. ok, so the incantation to see how much free space I need on a card to put my music on it, is du -s ~/music
17:15:44 <ais523> silly hashtable impl: a sparse file where addresses in your file correspond to possible keys directly
17:16:11 <ais523> orin: yep, you probably want to add --si to that (rather than -h) because people size storage devices in powers of 10 rather than powers of 2
17:16:26 <cpressey> ais523: I've seen that done on memory with hashconsing - the address of the object is its hash value
17:16:50 <cpressey> which is, y'know, ... interesting
17:17:10 <orin> cpressey: how can that work?
17:17:14 <ais523> presumably a lot of mmap
17:17:53 <ais523> plus some trick to place your stack somewhere your hashtable won't touch
17:17:57 <orin> two identical objects can have different addresses
17:18:08 <cpressey> orin: not if you hashcons them :)
17:18:10 <ais523> orin: not in this case!
17:18:18 <ais523> cpressey: I assume all objects have to be immutable
17:18:32 <cpressey> ais523: my memory of it is fuzzy but I assume so too
17:18:34 <ais523> and I'm not sure how you do deallocation; refcounting?
17:19:16 <orin> oh, so we are replacing addresses with hashes, not replacing hashs with addresses
17:19:28 <cpressey> I think it was on a 680x0 architecture fwiw. no mmap. stack is just... tucked away somewhere nice
17:20:03 <ais523> cpressey: mmap and friends would be helpful here because it lets your address space be larger than your physical memory
17:20:36 <cpressey> yes, that would remove that limitation
17:22:58 <orin> hmm... if it isn't immutable, then change to one sub-object changes the hashes of every object that points to it .: it has to be immutable
17:25:42 <orin> It also means that "does the object X exist" is a reasonable question. In C for example you'd have to iterate through memory, with hashconsig you can just use that hash
17:30:57 <cpressey> it is... interesting. i might try to dig up the paper (which included a bunch of stuff about trees vs hash tables for some reason)
17:31:55 <cpressey> teach kids to code so they can build things with love and change the world
17:32:38 <ais523> orin: there are two problems with that question
17:32:42 <ais523> one is hash collisions
17:33:00 <ais523> the other is, in order to be able to ask the question, you need the object in the first place and thus the object definitely does exist
17:33:22 <ais523> (I found both of these problems when writing my Perl memory profiler, which had a "does this object exist" as one of its side functionalities)
17:33:42 <orin> ais523: not if the question is asked from a degug envionment?
17:33:56 <ais523> orin: right, or if you're asking the question of the hash rather than of the object
17:34:04 <ais523> Devel::TrackAllocations' testsuite uses it
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21:01:48 <elliott> 17:17:20 <orin> ais523: i ... see. ok, so the incantation to see how much free space I need on a card to put my music on it, is du -s ~/music
21:01:53 <elliott> assuming it's using the same filesystem
21:01:57 <elliott> also ignoring things like deduplication etc.
21:02:23 <ais523> it's one of these apparently simple questions, where the answer is complex
21:07:56 <b_jonas> elliott: that gives a good guess, yes
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22:17:52 <oerjan> i think i may have drifted out of overlap with cpressey's irc time again
22:19:43 <oerjan> that his attempt to catch me failed
22:20:51 <boily> oh. you were trying to meet?
22:21:49 <oerjan> although he didn't seem to say why
22:22:05 <boily> something something apocalypse something fungot something.
22:22:05 <fungot> boily: fizzie you got fnord?!?
22:22:18 <boily> fungot: fizzie has fnord.
22:22:18 <fungot> boily: what is lambda? why isn't ( x) ( 1+ y)) please, will someone explain to me how exactly i'm going to
22:22:21 <oerjan> unless he _really_ wanted to use lambdabot's @oerjan command, i guess that's a remote possibility.
22:22:25 <orin> the title is showing as RIP JiAA MatouA!ek for me?
22:22:56 <int-e> orin: there are some accents
22:22:56 <boily> orin: J i r-hacek i-acute M a t o u s-hacek e k.
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22:23:28 <oerjan> if that _also_ shows up broken, you need to fix your unicode.
22:23:29 <b_jonas> orin: you should try to set your irc client to use utf-8 encoding
22:23:48 <orin> I am seeig J i Ao A~ Matou Ao upsidedown !
22:23:58 <b_jonas> sadly IRC doesn't have a single definite encoding, people have been known to use various single-byte national encodings on different channels just a few years ago
22:24:11 <b_jonas> these days they seem to have converged to utf-8, at least in the parts of irc I frequent
22:24:24 <boily> orin: heed the b_jonasadvice. utf8ify your client.
22:24:35 <oerjan> utf-8 is definitely the recommended encoding for this channel.
22:24:36 <b_jonas> boily: you forgot the space
22:24:43 <orin> ooh, now it's working
22:24:52 <boily> b_jonas: no I didn't :P
22:25:05 <boily> (word conflagration is a fun pastime!)
22:25:17 <boily> @oerjan what does @oerjan do?
22:25:20 <oerjan> possibly with fallback to something latin-1'y
22:25:32 <b_jonas> (also, his name isn't “Jiři Matoušek” despite that I wrote that a few times by mistake)
22:25:35 <oerjan> boily: something evil, i assume
22:26:21 <boily> oerjan: makes sense.
22:27:47 <oerjan> single-language sound. well, i'm not entirely sure whether slovakian also has it.
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22:28:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, to an ignorant foreigner like me the “ř” is just “r” with funny spelling, not a separate sound
22:30:18 <HackEgo> [U+1EA8 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX AND HOOK ABOVE]
22:31:03 <oerjan> hm it exists in some dialects of other languages, including slovak, but the wikipedia page only list czech as having it generally
22:32:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: exists as in distinct from r, or as an allophone?
22:32:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: hm hungarians shouldn't be that ignorant hth
22:33:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: well in the polish and silesian entries in the table it's listed as contrasting.
22:33:52 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill#Occurrence_2
22:35:13 <Sgeo_> Pharo 4 beta was recently released
22:35:26 * Sgeo_ will probably play with the final version when it comes out
22:35:50 <boily> int-e: int-hello! vocalizing your suffering in foreign languages?
22:36:15 <fizzie> fungot: You talking to me?
22:36:15 <fungot> fizzie: but you can do about it? i thought since it was originally compiled with japanese perhaps that was his point... it's a bit cheap, relative to
22:38:24 <HackEgo> [U+A733 LATIN SMALL LETTER AA] [U+A733 LATIN SMALL LETTER AA] [U+A733 LATIN SMALL LETTER AA]
22:38:32 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: ping ← pong
22:40:36 <int-e> boily: just questioning the sanity of unicode.
22:41:29 <int-e> (Though there may not be anything there to question ;-) )
22:44:16 <b_jonas> ais523: you asked last time about the sound “gy” represents in Hungarian
22:45:12 * Sgeo_ questions the sanity of cookies
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22:45:58 <b_jonas> ais523: one thing that might help is that even in English, a minority of people pronounce “new” and “during” with “ny” and “gy” sounds. this is because those words originally have a [j] sound after the consonant, and “j” has a place of articulation (tongue position) similar to “ny” and “gy”
22:46:30 <b_jonas> so the “n” and “d” changes, just like how even in English “n” usually changes to the “ng” sound before a “g” or to an “m” sound before a “b”.
22:46:38 <ais523> hmm, how close is English "j" to Hungarian "dgy"
22:46:49 <b_jonas> (most people just pronounce those words with “n” and “d” though.)
22:47:02 <b_jonas> ais523: those are the same
22:47:24 <b_jonas> English “j” is the same as Hungarian “dzs”
22:47:49 <ais523> I forgot "zs" was even a letter
22:48:02 <b_jonas> “zs” is a letter even in Englihs, it occurs in “measure” most famously
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22:48:08 <b_jonas> it's the voiced pair of “sh”
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22:56:13 <ais523> I'm not sure English has a name for it at all
22:56:19 <ais523> although I agree that it is in the middle of the word "measure"
22:56:36 <ais523> I guess "zsh" is the closest I can get using normal English spelling
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23:09:55 <olsner> hmm, are you still on the sound of hungarian dgy? ISTR that's where I left you half a week ago
23:11:16 <orin> I don't think zsh gets us much further than bash does
23:11:22 <fungot> boily: seems a popular pastime))
23:11:31 <int-e> "I seem to remember"
23:11:41 <ais523> "seems a popular pastime to leave you there half a week ago"
23:11:48 <int-e> fungot: you seem to have forgotten...
23:11:48 <fungot> int-e: fnord. went to the party), better healthcare, better everything." " ok, do _you_ grok dependent types are " low level" syntax case.
23:12:15 <boily> fungot: #$%*($%) )%($* 384950 %($*#(), so you may have new words to say.
23:12:15 <fungot> boily: conditions need not be duplicated at the beginning of the parameter names. at least it didn't earlier. ;-p
23:12:42 <int-e> does fizzie retrain the irc model now?
23:12:52 <int-e> afair it's frozen in time
23:13:36 <orin> there should be a shell called cash
23:13:54 <orin> it should be proprietary
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23:15:21 <olsner> boily: ISTR ISTR meaning "ISTR"
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23:16:55 <int-e> . o O ( MLoM - modulo loss of memory )
23:17:03 <orin> International Society of Technical Redactors
23:18:15 <orin> Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn
23:22:12 <int-e> I imitate chatting fungots.
23:22:12 <fungot> int-e: 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf8,16,32,64 funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain sceql udage01 unlambda
23:22:35 <orin> As used: "I think we should implement the new accounting software in MUMPS, IICF"
23:22:42 <int-e> wait, why did it respond with a language list...
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23:24:12 <int-e> ISTR that ISTR has several meanings.
23:25:08 <ais523> doesnt it basically always start "I seem to"
23:25:15 <ais523> the fourth word can vary
23:25:41 <int-e> A dictionary suggested "It Stands To Reason".
23:26:57 <ais523> I disagree with that dictionary
23:27:12 <orin> what does that mean?
23:28:00 <orin> ISTR hearing "stands to reason" in a pratchett book.
23:28:46 <orin> But I don't know what it's actualy supposed to mean
23:28:55 <int-e> "It Stands To Reason That" is more or less equivalent to "In My Opinion"
23:29:55 <int-e> (Though conceivably you could use it for opinions not your own. "One Might Argue That" is perhaps closer.)
23:30:38 <olsner> one can argue literally anything, so that's pretty meaningless
23:30:42 <ais523> I thought "it stands to reason" sort-of implies "a sufficiently intelligent person could deduce that"
23:31:12 <int-e> Yeah, note the implied insult of your intelligence if you happen to disagree.
23:31:25 <int-e> I guess... s/insult of/insult to/
23:32:48 <ais523> int-e: yep, I think that's part of it
23:49:30 <FireFly> I thought it was "I seem to recall" (which is not very different to 'remember', though)
23:51:17 <int-e> That's quite possible, I tend to use synonyms interchangeably
23:52:49 <int-e> Hmm, is there a special term for words that have an overlap in meaning, so they can be synonymous in some contexts but not in others?
23:54:08 <ais523> etymologically "synonym" should be that, I guess (with two words that /always/ mean the same thing "isonyms")
23:55:48 <int-e> Thanks. "Words can be synonymous when meant in certain senses, even if they are not synonymous in all of their senses."
00:00:42 <int-e> oerjan: uh-oh. yesterday there was one open ticket for ghc-7.10, today there are two...
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00:24:05 <boily> is translation a functor?
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01:00:36 <oerjan> int-e: now if they could fix the open "ticket" for the ghc trac itself. (apparently it's having problems with bots.)
01:01:09 <oerjan> oops and one is in the Typeable solver
01:06:54 <int-e> oerjan: Right, SPJ reopened it, but I haven't tried to understand his objection. (I thought one of the key points of making typeable internal is that the solver can be very relaxed about overlaps (just as with IncoherentInstances) because the produced typeable witnesses will always end up the same regardless...
01:07:22 <int-e> fungot: gimme a closing parenthesis, please?
01:07:23 <fungot> int-e: but i really need to find a decent prolog tutorial by which you may create a new one that does proper fnord
01:07:34 <fungot> int-e: sleeping is the cousin of death
01:07:43 <int-e> fungot: you're such a disappointment sometimes
01:07:44 <fungot> int-e: some colleagues of mine have done a lot and is southern. he is going to be a fnord
01:09:34 <boily> fungot: could you close-paren me please?
01:09:34 <fungot> boily: i use sxml to turn darcs changelogs into debian ones. heheh.'
01:09:47 <boily> fungot: what? that's pure evil!
01:09:48 <fungot> boily: what do the french know? they don't treat macros in sicp? i didn't copy the sp?)
01:10:09 <boily> fungot: thanks for the belated parenthesis. and yes, the French don't know about that.
01:10:10 <fungot> boily: how are clients any different from running lisp on the 370/ 158 stored its global environment in a continuation
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01:15:40 <FireFly> fungot: what's the current price on right-parentheses?
01:15:40 <fungot> FireFly: i'll quote from the stalin directory:
01:15:41 <boily> int-e: it's not luck, it's a deep spiritual connection with the 'got. we understand each other.
01:16:02 <boily> fungot: this may be a little bit outdated. don't you have anything more modern?
01:16:03 <fungot> boily: it will. you'll need to go bang head against wall ensued. they got it in...
01:16:19 <fungot> boily: at the same pace that i'm explaining, it should be
01:16:26 <boily> fungot: it should be?
01:16:27 <fungot> boily: you can't, i don't actually know what you meant by it
01:16:38 <boily> fungot: oh well...
01:16:38 <fungot> boily: once i saw the 1991 demo...
01:16:43 <FireFly> fungot: sometimes I wish you would just get to the point
01:16:43 <fungot> FireFly: a melon costs 50 cent coin and turned it into hardware ( which was on deviantart frontpage. :p
01:17:05 <FireFly> Well that's the price for a melon, at least
01:17:13 <int-e> boily: Ok, you make it sound quite unlucky actually.
01:17:22 <boily> breaking news! DA featuring 50¢ melons!
01:17:33 <fungot> oerjan: forget a subject there, it doesn't work. i think i can
01:17:37 <int-e> Douglas Adams? Isn't he dead?
01:17:56 <boily> int-e: technique, not luck.
01:17:57 <fungot> FireFly: i meant l:tu or winxp? ;p it might make a good demo with an engine like that than a lame snail?" it might improve the srfi process
01:17:58 <fungot> oerjan: i am sorry for this absurdity i'm not enough of an innovation to be worthy of creating a failure object invoke the debugger)
01:18:20 <oerjan> fungot: ok i guess you're more into logic
01:18:20 <fungot> oerjan: and one playfield turned into a popularity argument. what do you mean with " limited"? come on. i just added six stack rotation instructions.
01:18:35 <int-e> Desoxyribonucleic acid?
01:19:16 <FireFly> fungot: I don't think befunge has any stack rotation instructions though
01:19:23 <fungot> FireFly: if we have a pair whose cdr is a list, and calls f-h again. this is the esoterics chat room yes?
01:19:38 <FireFly> fungot: yes, that is correct
01:19:38 <fungot> FireFly: to your first world implicitly passed around.
01:19:40 <int-e> fungot: yes it is. you're helping.
01:19:40 <fungot> int-e: i'll try this one. though perhaps it isn't trustworthy. fnord/ artist/ fnord too up to last year, on a large battle to catch by this war.
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01:21:06 <boily> I wonder what would happen if fungot started mentioning chickens...
01:21:07 <fungot> boily: a friend of mine has the assumption that it isn't even trying to divide by zero fix this" the sentence would not lose any meaning if you'd use eval.
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01:21:45 <FireFly> fungot: what did you do to those poor esotericans?
01:21:46 <fungot> FireFly: althrought many powerful people where masons, i don't think " genius" is well-defined in this regard. it's counter-intuitive and you can't satisfy them all at once?
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01:26:21 <int-e> fungot: what about woodcraft?
01:26:21 <fungot> int-e: are you a fnord?) but i'm not sure my explanations are a bit wonky" crt back, i think
01:26:35 <int-e> fungot: what about witchcraft?
01:26:36 <fungot> int-e: i found this paper helpfull: fnord/ courses/ scheme/ slime48/. also, closing parens on same line
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01:37:30 <fungot> FireFly: not really, kuribas. it has a bunch of smaller objects. for example, how would it know what one
01:38:00 <FireFly> fungot: how would it, though?
01:38:00 <fungot> FireFly: it lets you clean up extant but useless data that might be nice if you enumerated the differences
01:39:10 <int-e> fungot's moments of clarity have me worried
01:39:10 <fungot> int-e: can somebody else come into this, and once you make eval look up its proper name.
01:51:33 <orin> WHY DOES THE INSERT KEY EXST
01:53:35 <orin> it's like some madman was like, yknow what i need? A key that can be pressed accidentally because it's next to right arrow, and makes your new writing overwrite your old writing character by character
01:55:12 <orin> maybe it was useful when people used fixed-length fields in everything?
01:57:27 <orin> fungot: why does the insert key exist?
01:57:28 <fungot> orin: it relies on gauche a lot? :p. ugh i need to call that cleanup procedure also after the ordinary procedure, ( lambda ( x)
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03:37:16 <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXauSxw86Pw
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07:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42214&oldid=42212 * Ais523 * (+7) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Vriskanon|Vriskanon]] ([[User talk:Vriskanon|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Kfriede|Kfriede]]
07:57:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42215&oldid=42211 * Ais523 * (+2) no unmarked links to userspace, please
07:57:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42216&oldid=42215 * Ais523 * (+0) caps
07:57:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hashes]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42217&oldid=42209 * Ais523 * (-12) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Vriskanon|Vriskanon]] ([[User talk:Vriskanon|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:93.115.84.195|93.115.84.195]]
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07:59:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42218&oldid=42206 * Ais523 * (+8) /* Tutorial */ don't mix meta-content with content, no unmarked links to userspace
07:59:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Secretary]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42219&oldid=42207 * Ais523 * (-8) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Vriskanon|Vriskanon]] ([[User talk:Vriskanon|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Oerjan|Oerjan]]
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08:02:58 <izabera> you may find this interesting
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08:05:17 <izabera> conclusion: don't rely on sed being smart enough to optimize 2p -> 2{p;q} and don't rely on sed being smart enough to produce the correct output on binary files
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08:08:06 <ais523> I wouldn't expect sed to optimize
08:10:13 <izabera> apparently a lot of people are expecting it to be equally efficient...
08:10:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Vriskanon]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42220 * Ais523 * (+2199) warning/note about links to userspace
08:13:12 <ais523> hmm, I wonder when was the last time I did my Esolang adminning duties in a way other than spam clearup
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08:17:02 <int-e> Yay, ghc-7.10.1 finally made it.
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08:19:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42221&oldid=42218 * Ais523 * (-30) /* Examples */ reformat signed meta-note to fit mainspace formatting guidelines (meta formatting, mark links to userspace)
08:35:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42222&oldid=36133 * Vriskanon * (+468) /* Your Message/Changes */ new section
08:35:59 <ais523> a good enough reply, at least
08:36:08 <ais523> also I made the huge mistake of clicking on the diff
08:36:26 <ais523> meaning that I entirely missed the Orange Bar of Doom, which I probably haven't seen for over a year now?
08:36:33 <ais523> ever since Wikipedia got rid of it
08:37:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42223&oldid=42201 * Vriskanon * (+9)
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09:19:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42224&oldid=42203 * Vriskanon * (-88) /* Vriskanon */
09:43:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42225&oldid=42184 * 160.85.232.204 * (-86) /* Examples */
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10:10:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42226&oldid=42221 * Vriskanon * (+2883) External links for Homestuck and Mesons. Changed introductiknMinor edits elsewhere. The 'Conditions' tutorial section (incomplete) and the 'Negative Concepts' tutorial section.
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10:59:16 <oerjan> <orin> WHY DOES THE INSERT KEY EXST <-- i use it occasionally, although i have some trouble remembering where it is on my new laptop keyboard. of course in vim the R command is easier.
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11:05:04 <oerjan> <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXauSxw86Pw <-- what did i just watch
11:05:38 <cpressey> The question is not why the insert key exists. The question is why insert mode still exists
11:06:26 <cpressey> oerjan: I need to look at your monad which I assume is in the logs somewhere but I am too tired to hunt
11:08:20 <oerjan> @let dbind [x] f = f x; dbind l f | all ((==1).length) l' = concat l' | otherwise = [] where l' = map f l
11:08:31 <oerjan> @check \x f g -> (((x::[Int]) `dbind` f :: [Int]) `dbind` g :: [Int]) == x `dbind` \t -> f t `dbind` g
11:09:12 <oerjan> and that was checking the third monad laws
11:09:54 <oerjan> the idea is basically "make the result [] unless laws force you not to"
11:10:39 <cpressey> "Counterexamples in Computation"
11:12:26 <cpressey> "ShrugSQL": when there are so many ad-hoc abstraction layers between you and your data you have no idea whether it counts as "NoSQL" or not
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11:13:33 <oerjan> the reason it only works for finite lists is that otherwise the check for whether you can return [] may never terminate.
11:14:16 <cpressey> does never-terminating violate the monad laws?
11:14:21 <cpressey> maybe i shouldn't ask such questions
11:15:33 <oerjan> it makes it hard to fulfil the x >>= return = x law for an infinite list x
11:15:52 <oerjan> especially if the return is somehow obfuscated
11:16:18 <cpressey> yeah that question was a bit troll-y tbh
11:16:45 <cpressey> a better question would be: do monads make sense in (say) a total functional programming regime? i don't see why they wouldn't
11:17:17 <oerjan> quite likely they make even _more_ sense, in haskell frequently the laws don't hold exactly once you have nontermination
11:18:21 <oerjan> i understand many total languages define a monad for non-terminating computations
11:19:05 <oerjan> so that they can still express turing-complete computations
11:20:01 <oerjan> codata Rec a = Now a | Later (Rec a)
11:20:38 <oerjan> or something equivalent
11:22:17 * oerjan gives cpressey a repsil drop
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11:32:21 <oerjan> <int-e> Yay, ghc-7.10.1 finally made it. <-- brace for confused stackoverflow questions...
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11:34:34 <cpressey> seriously though. all the effort we're putting into developing total functional programming could be directed towards teaching kids to code so they can build things with love and change the world.
11:35:27 <oerjan> i think you just tied my brain into a meta-ironic knot
11:36:37 <cpressey> i'm sorry. finding it very hard not to get bitter, as i age. not unlike cheese, i suppose
11:40:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42227&oldid=41367 * SuperJedi224 * (+9)
11:40:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42228&oldid=41204 * SuperJedi224 * (+258)
11:40:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42229&oldid=42228 * SuperJedi224 * (+4)
11:45:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daft Punk]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42231 * Vriskanon * (+298) Created page with "{{stub}} ''Daft Punk is still under production. This page will be updated when the code is fully designed.'' - ~~~~ Daft is an [[Esoteric Programming Language]] currentl..."
11:45:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daft Punk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42232&oldid=42231 * Vriskanon * (-4)
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11:47:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42233&oldid=42208 * Vriskanon * (+16) /* D */ Added Daft Punk
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11:48:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daft Punk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42234&oldid=42232 * Vriskanon * (+31)
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11:57:27 <cpressey> i wonder how much of modern software development is just *finding* the line of code to change
11:59:05 <b_jonas> cpressey: that depends on whether you write the code well organized in first place
11:59:19 <b_jonas> if you write good code, then yes, you just have to find where to change
12:00:05 <b_jonas> if not, you have to restructure everything and change ten copies of what should have been refactored to the same function in first place, and then hunt down memory corruption bugs that didn't use to crash the program so frequently before this incidental change.
12:00:28 <cpressey> "how much of modern software development" depends on nothing except the set of all modern software development
12:04:47 <cpressey> "how quickly and completely can you familiarize yourself with a vast territory?" <-- possible interview question
12:07:37 <cpressey> and then there's the spec, or lack thereof. "story: currently we do X when Z, make it Y when Z instead". four hours later: no, we actually already Y when Z
12:07:57 <cpressey> maybe those bdd people have a point
12:16:16 <oerjan> this territory talk is nonsense, i will have nunavut
12:18:58 <oerjan> i'm sure they do, but what does body dysmorphic disorder have to do with programming
12:19:06 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but isn't that why they invented tube socks?
12:19:30 <Jafet> I thought you disapproved of these puns but now you look so inuit.
12:20:01 <oerjan> you cannot have been paying proper attention
12:30:12 <cpressey> yukon count me out of this silly game
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12:40:17 <b_jonas> dysmorphic disorder? what's that?
12:42:41 <oerjan> @google dysmorphic disorder
12:42:43 <lambdabot> http://www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/related-illnesses/other-related-conditions/body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd
12:42:43 <lambdabot> Title: Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) | Anxiety and Depression Association of Americ...
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12:59:26 <orin> oerjan: you watched some cute Chinese girls singing and dancing, obviously.
13:01:44 <oerjan> well that much was obvious.
13:02:41 <orin> well that's all I know about it
13:14:30 <orin> Ok, I looked up the group on zh.wikipedia. Apparently they were 5 years old and the video is from 2006 (explaining the quality)
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13:15:11 <mroman> Firebase is surprisingly expensive
13:15:37 <mroman> I can get a dedicated high performance server for that kind of money
13:15:53 <mroman> with unlimited traffic and TB of storage
13:16:26 <orin> recently the same group got together and recordied it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvGGpOhIjG8
13:25:13 <orin> Unfortunately that means i have it stuck in my head again
13:39:53 <cpressey> i don't know what this is but i think i'll pass
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13:40:35 <oerjan> dammit, spj's mails are almost unreadable in the pipermail archives
13:41:15 <oerjan> (the conversion to text doesn't preserve whatever quoting scheme he's using
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13:59:08 <int-e> oerjan: spj's emails are unreadable in my mail client, too :P
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14:44:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42235&oldid=42227 * Esowiki201529A * (+13) Undo
14:50:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42236&oldid=41653 * Esowiki201529A * (+24)
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16:11:03 <orin> shikin, get a server and a screen session
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17:26:26 <int-e> Fun, hanami season in full swing... I love the fact that there are forecasts. http://www.jnto.go.jp/sakura/eng/index.php
17:26:44 <int-e> Or sakura, hanami is the celebration?
17:38:35 <orin> hanami just literally says "flower viewing"
17:38:51 <orin> sakura means the cherry blossoms
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18:29:13 <Taneb> Just heard on the news "There is no girl"
18:29:28 <Taneb> That sounds probably significant on quite a terrifying level
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18:31:52 <Taneb> (it's talking about a vigilante group catching a sexual predator by creating a fictional teenage girl)
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21:27:38 <b_jonas> ooh, look! the proceedings for the Sigbovik conference are already available, even before the start of the conference
21:27:44 <b_jonas> I'll have to read in the weekend
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22:19:13 <boily> nhellortti! what's ddungeon?
22:20:43 <olsner> who knows, but apparently irc plays it
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22:23:12 <nortti> it was a typo of "dungeon"
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22:24:17 <boily> and here I was hoping that ddungeon was to dungeon what ddate is to date...
22:24:28 <boily> `relcome MichaelMalus
22:24:30 <HackEgo> MichaelMalus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:24:53 <olsner> boily: maybe it should be! since everything is better discordianly
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23:42:15 <int-e> Nice, The Association of Computational Heresy
23:49:11 <boily> int-hello! what is that?
23:51:48 <int-e> boily: see b_jonas' link ... which you missed: <b_jonas> http://sigbovik.org/2015/
23:53:56 <int-e> "Bashing Haskell: Reimplementing the Parsec Library Inside the Unix Shell" ... oh no.
23:54:41 <zzo38> Computational Heresy?
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00:00:26 <int-e> "MD5 takes an arbitrary string of characters, passes it through a deterministic blender and produces an unnecessarily long 128-bit value."
00:12:42 <FireFly> Yes. MD5/4 compresses it into 32 bits
00:13:18 <int-e> FreeFull: it might help to know that the proceedings are dated April 1st 2015.
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00:13:46 <FreeFull> int-e: Hmm, so they're from the future
00:14:00 <int-e> But not for long :)
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00:15:04 <fizzie> "Or, more likely, you're looking at them on a screen because you're too cheap to actually buy the proceedings." They know me so well.
00:15:13 <fizzie> I wonder if that's on the paper copy at all.
00:15:18 <FreeFull> int-e: I wasn't looking at the proceedings, and that sentence is mostly accurate
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00:15:50 <FreeFull> fizzie: Oh jeez, the last page is filled with lots of tiny text
00:16:07 <int-e> FreeFull: At the same time, no self-respecting cryptographer would write that in a scientific publication.
00:17:43 <FreeFull> "the solid foundation of the MD5/4 cryptographic hash function"
00:18:20 <FreeFull> "the RSA public key cryptosystem signing procedure [10] with a key length of 32 bits"
00:18:25 <orin> wait, so 96 of the bits are not needed?
00:19:02 <int-e> FreeFull: wait until you get to the footnote explaining why 2048 is a more popular choice
00:20:04 <FreeFull> "Copyright © 2015 The Association of Computational Heresy, your leading source for cutting-edge research on Science, Computational Archaeolinguistics, and Artificial Stupidity. "
00:20:54 <int-e> owie. "Kaliningrad, Russia (colloq.); better known in the Formal Literature as Königsberg, Prussia...
00:21:26 <orin> Oh, they aren't saying that 96 of the bits can be deduced from 32, they're just saying THEY only need 32 bits
00:22:39 <orin> wait is this entire thing an elaborate joke or not?
00:23:24 <int-e> it's a valid cryptographic operation, assuming your attacker doesn't have access to modern (post 1960?) computers.
00:23:42 <int-e> orin: you're catching on fast
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00:24:29 <orin> Unfortunaely in the internet age it is hard to tell whether anything is a joke
00:26:20 <fizzie> If the website is to be believed, it's "joke realizations of joke ideaas", "joke realizations of serious ideas", and "serious realizations of joke ideas", all of which /joke/.
00:27:59 <ais523> that's a similar set as this channel, isn't it?
00:28:03 <ais523> at least when it's ontopic?
00:30:47 <fizzie> Yes, although this channel also has the "related to programming languages" bit set.
00:31:20 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose is mostly the topic anyways
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00:37:28 <HackEgo> danddreclist 64: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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00:48:19 <orin> ancient greeks, including Aristotle and a mortal man [1] named Socrates.
00:48:43 <zzo38> What is that about the Greeks?
00:49:40 <orin> zzo38: it's a sentence from the artivle on "artisanal type theory"
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01:02:05 <zzo38> My RDF namespace now has 19 leaf nodes defined.
01:08:30 <FireFly> "By he way, the images are always 256x256, because numbers that are a power of two are faster.²" "²This is true on computers, because computers count in binary. In the human eye, powers of ten are faster, because humans have ten fingers."
01:09:35 <ais523> that is one of those statements that's /just/ accurate enough that you can't outright call it false, while nonetheless being completely misleading
01:12:10 <zzo38> Eyes aren't fingers though, isn't it?
01:13:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Batch file]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42237 * Esowiki201529A * (+76) Created page with "== examples == === Hello, World === <pre> @echo off echo Hello, World </pre>"
01:14:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Batch file]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42238&oldid=42237 * Esowiki201529A * (+24)
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01:14:38 <orin> god damn it these earbuds have too much bass
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01:15:42 <orin> I _knew_ I should have bought cheaper ones
01:20:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Batch file]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42239&oldid=42238 * Esowiki201529A * (+6)
01:20:54 <zzo38> Why is PDJSON larger than my RDF Turtle parser when both are compiled with -s -O2 options?
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01:24:59 <zzo38> Isn't RDF Turtle more complicated than JSON?
01:26:08 <orin> How does the error handling compare in each piece of code?
01:27:54 <zzo38> I don't know; maybe you should look. Although, both do check for several errors (there are probably more errors to check for in RDF).
01:28:14 <zzo38> Maybe you can look though, and see if that help
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01:37:20 <orin> Hmm... maybe it's strerror?
01:38:30 <orin> which would implicitly include a bunch of strings, most of which are never used,
01:39:58 <int-e> ^rerere loop unrolling
01:40:37 <fungot> int-e: fnord by pikhq already exists and doesn't require tcness from that. therefore, a language with card decks. yarr.
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01:46:50 <zzo38> No, strerror is linked externally; the compiled DLL doesn't include all of those strings
01:47:29 <zzo38> Despite that, sqlext_pdjson.dll is 46K and sqlext_turtle.dll is 22K
01:54:19 <zzo38> PDJSON does have smaller source-codes though.
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05:29:30 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/30hk3l/github_may_be_inaccessible_today_due_to_a_ddos/
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05:42:43 <Sgeo_> Given that other people are pointing out the obvious right way to fix the DDoS attack, is it that bad if I mention it too?
05:42:55 <Sgeo_> The first few things I said I avoided mentioning it, but now I haven't
05:43:11 <Sgeo_> But it's an obvious thing... but apparently not obvious to the Chinese gov
05:45:55 <oerjan> someone's ddos'ing china?
05:46:43 <Sgeo_> China is attempting to DDoS GitHub
05:47:00 <Sgeo_> By causing sites using Baidu analytics to make JSONP requests to GitHub
05:47:15 <Sgeo_> *to cause users to make etc
05:47:25 <Sgeo_> GitHub responded by making that URL return an alert()
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06:44:29 <oerjan> <orin> god damn it these earbuds have too much bass <-- bass are inferior to babel fishes, anyhow
06:46:26 <oerjan> btw i suggest featuring Esme for april 1, on the reasoning that it will likely greatly speed up the next feature.
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06:50:48 <zzo38> If the new version of CLC-INTERCAL is released on April 1, then should you feature the new version of CLC-INTERCAL on April 1?
06:51:59 <Sgeo_> But Esme is better as a 'this should not be featured' language being featured
06:52:45 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
06:53:21 <Sgeo_> If VeeBeeWiki needs Esme to run, maybe there would be hints of what the language is actually supposed to be
06:54:46 <Sgeo_> Except only link apparently was dead
07:01:13 <zzo38> I looked on a TV guide and on the guide in the cable box with DVR to figure out when the show is on, and then I went into the basement to record it on the VCR; are you going to call it strange if I do such thing?
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07:02:54 <Sgeo_> Slightly strange that you'd use VCR if a DVR is present, also wondering why you needed to check two sources
07:03:09 <orin> videotapes aren't used anymore in Canada, but they are used a lot in Japan, so it' relative
07:05:26 <orin> Anyway DVR can have limitations as to getting the data off the DVR
07:06:26 <zzo38> As it turns out they connected it to an input on the DVD recorder on the main floor, so that is one way to copy it I suppose
07:06:52 <zzo38> Although someone else is using the DVR and that TV set so I don't want to fill up the disk space or to interfere with their TV shows
07:07:39 <zzo38> The reason I checked two sources is that the TV guide doesn't list shows on at 3AM
07:08:41 <zzo38> Not in my timezone
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07:42:59 <oerjan> the haskell wiki is so broken i cannot even view diffs :(
07:43:32 <oerjan> the fact no one else has seemingly noticed doesn't bode well.
07:43:44 <oerjan> because it means no one is checking edits.
07:44:10 <shachaf> #haskell-infrastructure hth
07:56:29 <oerjan> i'm sure it did, just look at the response
07:57:40 <shachaf> it's p. late in haskellland
08:01:48 <oerjan> pesky western hemisphere
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09:38:39 <orin> struct mytest A = {3,5.6,"World",0};
09:38:42 <orin> struct mytest B = {5,3.1415,"Hello",&A};
09:38:45 <orin> prin7f("{%d,%f,%s,%R}",&B);
09:39:11 <orin> output is: {5,3.141500,Hello,{3,5.600000,World,}}
09:41:53 <orin> the prin7f family of functions works sort of like the printf family, except they take their data out of a given buffer instead of from dynamically typed arguments
09:42:37 <orin> The %R specifier recurses into a pointer with the same format
09:44:14 <oerjan> must it be the whole format? otherwise it seems a bit limited.
09:44:57 <oerjan> clearly we need the full power of BNF here
09:46:29 <oerjan> solution: make the first argument a struct also >:)
09:46:59 <oerjan> ...might be a bit tricky.
09:47:22 <orin> Well, I'm just covering onw of the most common cases. Full BNF would use an array of formats that can refer to each other with "%{N}"
09:50:21 <orin> Of course, I'd have to write code to detect looped pointers.... ugh
09:51:08 <orin> wait, I already need that
09:55:27 <HackEgo> olist 979: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
09:56:23 <Sgeo_> huh my FB page hasn't said anything yet
10:01:04 <shachaf> Sgeo_ can just take your trademark like that?
10:01:15 <shachaf> next it'll have to be ølist
10:07:17 <Jafet> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Cyclic_Tag_System
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10:11:03 <Jafet> (The guilty party seems to be http://assets.en.oreilly.com/1/event/27/High%20Performance%20SQL%20with%20PostgreSQL%20Presentation.pdf)
10:14:48 <orin> https://gist.github.com/orenwatson/985cdf4a945ee80f756d
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13:25:15 <lambdabot> CYUL 281300Z 35011KT 30SM FEW090 FEW240 M09/M17 A3006 RMK AC1CI1 AC TR CI TR SLP181
13:25:50 <boily> minus fungotting nine. and it was snowing yesterday...
13:25:50 <fungot> boily: and diamondie; if they'd still age at this speed and stayed in bed the last 100 years, i'd say.
13:26:30 <boily> fungot: I wouldn't mind cats or dogs or diamondies pouring down. as long as it isn't any more snow.
13:26:31 <fungot> boily: also pushing should be fnord?? weirdo! set-car! set-cdr! are functions, but f takes as an argument
13:27:04 <boily> fungot: it's not weird, it's common sense. you push and shovel and hurl the snow away.
13:27:04 <fungot> boily: tell me what " fnord" is longer than
13:27:15 <boily> fungot: fnord is longer than snow.
13:27:15 <fungot> boily: anyone here familiar with dr scheme? fnord!
13:27:27 <boily> fungot: perhaps. I think racket's more popular nowadays.
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13:33:41 <fizzie> @metar uh what was that code again
13:33:46 <lambdabot> EGLL 281320Z 23017KT 9999 OVC013 13/09 Q1010 TEMPO SCT012 BKN016
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13:57:28 <int-e> fizzie: do you know why fungot forgot about ^rerere and ^rreree?
13:57:28 <fungot> int-e: i just want to dump the fnord leaves.
13:57:42 <int-e> fungot: brilliant excuse
13:57:42 <fungot> int-e: in your file makes it instantly clear. chopping it into at least two other links that don't work
13:59:12 <int-e> or perhaps a better question is, does fungot support remembering defined commands over restarts?
13:59:12 <fungot> int-e: that's a zip file stored in a hash-table? what's wrong with it just pointing out that a lot
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14:01:33 <FireFly> a zip file in a hash table seems a bit cumbersome for befunge processing
14:02:29 <boily> you're underestimating fungot's prowesses.
14:02:30 <fungot> boily: i'm afraid i haven't read it yet. also, saying the f word more than once ( per invocation).
14:02:54 <boily> fungot: I wouldn't know. I'm seriously lacking in the f-word department.
14:02:55 <fungot> boily: which is good. ( well, it seems...
14:03:02 <fungot> boily: and merging is great!" and was curious if scheme code were parsed textually, you'd never know what you'll find over the rainbow"? x_x
14:05:11 <FireFly> graphical parsing of scheme sounds very cumbersome, fungot
14:05:11 <fungot> FireFly: it's unnecessary, especially if one restricts it to working stuff and marks them appropriately)
14:05:21 <fungot> FireFly: in c. " fnord"? when i load it?' and how will that help me tracing the prog? hardly
14:15:28 <int-e> fizzie: quite possibly.
14:17:00 <int-e> ^def rreree bf ,..>,[.<.>.>,]<.
14:17:11 <int-e> ^def rerere bf ,.>,.<.>>,[.<.<.>>>,]<.<.>.
14:17:31 <int-e> (am I even allowed to do that?)
14:19:58 <boily> my keys are dead and I like it that way.
14:20:28 * boily is a certified necrokeyboardomancer :D
14:26:16 <ais523> int-e: I don't think it works for anyone but fizzie to ^save?
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16:29:20 <fizzie> Yes, it's one of these restricted ones.
16:35:52 <boily> fungot: please, unrestrict yourself. it's for the Greater Good®
16:35:52 <fungot> boily: i'm getting rather tired of incessant divergence from the topic has the url :) :) 3 :)
16:36:02 <boily> fungot: bleh to you too!
16:36:02 <fungot> boily: it's put onto amb-fail.
16:44:04 <fungot> olsner: it was some other programming language, it's just too difficult in a statically typed macro system from a large variety of broken keymaps
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17:11:56 <FireFly> fungot: I could see that, yes
17:11:56 <fungot> FireFly: well at least it will be a variable name is really call-with-current-continuation. amb is somewhat more roundabout than i thought
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17:24:32 <newsham> https://github.com/rntz/rotten#rotten
17:24:40 <newsham> lisp compiler that compiles in a backdoor
17:31:57 <int-e> newsham: you know "reflections on trusting trust", right? http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
17:34:03 <int-e> Oh, it's the first thing mentioned in the readme.md, I should've clicked the link before answering
17:38:42 <newsham> inte: you know about diverse double compilation, right?
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18:03:32 <Jafet> Indeed, lisp is a poor attack vector for this because we know that every lisp hacker can make their own implementation of lisp
18:04:26 <Jafet> (Large defense surface?)
18:06:03 <b_jonas> fungot, is lisp a poor attack vector?
18:06:03 <fungot> b_jonas: seriously i mean da scm monster. water walker.
18:06:25 <b_jonas> fungot, have you tried to make your own dialect of lisp yet?
18:06:25 <fungot> b_jonas: forget your religion is i am an image artist" fnord, i'm sorry, but i can't make
18:06:36 <b_jonas> from that parenthesis stuff you mentioned a few days ago I thought you would
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18:13:10 <izabera> do you guys know suckless?
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18:18:00 <izabera> good, because i need to rant
18:18:24 <izabera> THEY WROTE LIBUTF AND THEIR SED BREAKS UTF8
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18:35:53 <FireFly> fungot: does suckless suck less?
18:35:54 <fungot> FireFly: ' these people's c is horrible' for ' binary', though. i rather enjoy sounding the opinions of other schemers, but if they used python or scheme or cl
18:36:11 <FireFly> I think fungot agrees with you, izabera
18:36:11 <fungot> FireFly: i suppose doom iii on geforce 4 under the hurd might be an example of upwards only continuations.
18:37:12 <int-e> izabera: maybe (turning an old joke about MS around) they tried to write firmware for a vacuum cleaner...
18:51:48 <elliott> orin: you'll need to handle padding
18:55:22 <zzo38> What is that? How does their sed breaks UTF-8?
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19:00:41 <elliott> izabera: the suckless people rarely seem to bother being consistent in their philosophy...
19:01:11 <elliott> the Unicode support thing seems like kind of an outlier to me. I have a feeling that if Plan 9 didn't have such a focus on it, they'd consider it unnecessary bloat :p
19:08:36 <zzo38> If you want to add Unicode support into sed and stuff that using regular expression, is easy to do, is make up a regex modifier flag to enable UTF-8 in which case when it read the byte 0xC0-0xFF then read however many next bytes 0x80-0xBF are considered as part of the same character. Nothing else needs to be done, and now you can even turn it off by just not specifying this flag.
19:08:59 <zzo38> You shouldn't try to add in everything else like character classes and so on
19:10:52 <int-e> the meaning of [a-ä] is very different with and without the flag; you cannot encode the resulting unicode range conveniently in a 256 bit array.
19:13:10 <zzo38> That is true, but, such ranges are not likely what you would want anyways, whether or not the flag is set.
19:13:35 <int-e> (I have a DFA based regex engine around that uses arrays of size 256 for transitions.)
19:13:57 <int-e> (It would be ... interesting ... to try to make it work with utf-8)
19:14:54 <zzo38> You should instead use multiple ranges together if you really want to include both accented and unaccented letters in the same range like that.
19:16:40 <zzo38> int-e: Ah, well I suppose it may be possible to compile UTF-8-based regular expressions into byte-based regular expressions, like I explained how to compile the dot, for example
19:17:47 <int-e> I guess negating ranges is the tricky bit.
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19:29:46 <FireFly> I had an issue a while ago where a sed script worked differently depending on the locale, due to character ranges
19:30:30 <FireFly> it even happened when I used escapes. You'd think [\x30-\x3f] would unambiguously match the set of bytes 0x30..0x3f, but apparently it doesn't
19:30:40 <int-e> collating is the worst idea ever.
19:31:30 <elliott> it's almost like bolting unicode on in a kind of ad-hoc manner after the fact doesn't go to well :p
19:31:34 <int-e> No, [a-z] should not include B-Y and one of A or Z (I forgot which one), oh and äöüÄÖÜ while we're at it)
19:33:02 <elliott> character ranges just seem like a fundamentally poor idea for unicode to me...
19:37:38 <izabera> $ suckless sed 's/[à]/x/' <<< è
19:37:50 <zzo38> That's stupid it shouldn't use Unicode such thing
19:38:11 <zzo38> It shouldn't use the locale
19:40:33 <zzo38> In byte mode it should match all bytes in range, in UTF-8 mode it should match all sequences of bytes corresponding to the shortest UTF-8 encoding of the codepoints in the given range.
19:41:08 <izabera> zzo38: what do you mean with stupid? my example or their sed's behaviour?
19:41:30 <izabera> because it obviously should use unicode imho
19:41:50 <zzo38> No it shouldn't use Unicode, unless you set a flag to tell it to do so
19:42:12 <izabera> ??? why does that make any sense? the flag should be always active
19:42:37 <zzo38> No it shouldn't, you should use single byte encodings by default (the program doesn't have to care which)
19:43:22 <zzo38> The alternative is to provide a flag to turn it off instead
19:43:39 <izabera> your reasoning is maybe valid in a 1975 background
19:43:56 <int-e> `` LC_CTYPE=C sed 's/[à]/x/' <<< è
19:44:23 <int-e> `` sed 's/[à]/x/' <<< è
19:45:23 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
19:45:38 <FireFly> New zealand? whatever floats your boat
19:45:44 <zzo38> But I think it shouldn't use the locale, instead add a regex flag after the / to tell it to use UTF-8, if you don't specify then it doesn't, and either way doens't care about what language or anything like that
19:46:06 <izabera> did you happen to read the posix standard
19:46:28 <zzo38> Now you have to add another shortcut that will change the locale to C when executing the command
19:47:17 <zzo38> In UNIX systems I have access to I had to even change the locale to C in my login scripts, since they did it bad too
19:47:27 <elliott> technically unicode did not exist in 1975 :p
19:48:13 <elliott> some parts of the locale system *do* seem to mess things up more than they help, but... that's unix for you
19:48:32 <izabera> you mean [a-z] matching X ?
19:48:41 <izabera> that's what [[:lower:]] is for
19:48:51 <elliott> I think [a-z] is kind of unreasonable to start with.
19:49:04 <zzo38> I still think [a-z] matching X is stupid unless case-insensitive mode is selected
19:49:17 <zzo38> By default it shouldn't do that
19:49:19 <elliott> (but I do admit that I have no idea how to reliably match "ASCII characters a to z". what if you're grepping for some programming language's syntax?)
19:49:43 <elliott> I find, e.g. locale-based ordering annoying in "ls". it messes up SHOUTYFILES coming first, iirc
19:50:21 <elliott> well, that's the other thing
19:50:27 <pikhq> (if [a-z[ in the C locale matches X yell at your vendor)
19:50:42 <elliott> sadly unix is a mess and a whole bunch of software is never going to make sure the locale is right for what it does in its scripts or whatever
19:50:54 <zzo38> I agree it is stupid, I want to force the locale to be C which is why I set up the login script to force the locale to C
19:50:55 <int-e> I hate almost everything about locales, but I do have LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (why the en_US?) set.
19:51:22 <zzo38> int-e: I too, but I prefer to set it to C instead of en_US.UTF-8
19:51:25 <elliott> (I do like localised software, and I do think all software should handle Unicode, no excuses.)
19:51:29 <pikhq> The C/Unix locale system isn't *that* bad, but very few people understand it well.
19:51:34 <elliott> (I just think the Unix locale system is about as much of a mess as Unix itself.)
19:51:45 <pikhq> elliott: You'd like musl's locale approach.
19:51:59 <pikhq> "Unicode is the only supported charset".
19:52:08 <int-e> (Actually I hate localised error messages, because I have to read them, rather than recognize them by pattern matching.)
19:52:09 <elliott> does musl even support locales to the point of letting you get error messages in your language from ls or whatever?
19:52:20 <zzo38> I disagree; only documentation and GUIs should be localised.
19:52:40 <pikhq> Nobody's bothered doing much localization, but there's locale infrastructure in place just fine.
19:52:41 <elliott> I know you disagree with almost everything I say >_>
19:52:44 <zzo38> And, not all software needs to handle Unicode; it depends on the software.
19:52:57 <int-e> elliott: you're wrong!
19:53:06 <zzo38> Most software probably shouldn't need to handle Unicode.
19:53:14 <pikhq> I think there's a couple omissions?
19:53:24 <pikhq> ... Oh *right*, it doesn't support localized collation.
19:54:00 <elliott> we should all go back to the original Emacs-on-TECO ported to TOPS-20, imo, argument over
19:54:04 <FireFly> [a-z] matching X if /i is given is reasonable to me
19:54:21 <elliott> oh nice TECO even ran on TOPS-20!
19:54:26 <FireFly> without /i any range should match exactly that range of bytes IMO
19:54:30 <pikhq> And (not exactly the same thing as locales, but somewhat relevant to some localized users) musl's iconv doesn't support *extensions* to its charset support ATM.
19:54:55 <zzo38> Making the sort command to support user-defined collation sequences (independent of chaacter set) seem reasonable to me; most other programs don't need to, but there are some such as SQLite that you can add extensions for user-defined collation sequences already too.
19:55:01 <elliott> izabera: I apologise for any part i had in starting this argument -_-
19:55:56 <pikhq> Which means you're going to have some issues if the legacy charset for your languange is not sufficiently common to have been implemented in iconv.
19:58:08 <zzo38> SQLite has no SQL commands to implement collation sequences, but you can write them in C and then load them using the LOAD_EXTENSION function in SQL.
19:58:42 <pikhq> So, SOL if it's not: UTF-8, UCS2, UTF-16, UTF-32, ASCII, EUC-JP, Shift-JIS, GB18030, GBK, GB2312, Big5, EUC-KR, ISO-8859*, or one of the more popular Windows code pages.
19:59:37 <int-e> what about EBCDIC?
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20:00:18 <int-e> (IBM's proprietary encryption)
20:02:49 <zzo38> EBCDIC isn't very good; ASCII is better.
20:03:23 <zzo38> I usually use ASCII when possible though rather than any other characters sets; most are compatible with ASCII though, so won't be much problem
20:04:32 <int-e> Ah, from Wikipedia: Professor: "So the American government went to IBM to come up with an encryption standard, and they came up with—" Student: "EBCDIC!"
20:10:36 <Sgeo_> Is using cookies on GitHub Pages actually -safe-?
20:11:00 <Sgeo_> github.io is on the public suffix list
20:11:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:14:46 <Sgeo_> As in, if I run a.github.io and use cookies for stuff, what chance does evil.github.io have of breaking stuff
20:16:25 <zzo38> The VCR I have has no zero-return function. You can reset the counter to zero, but doesn't have the mode to automatically fast-forward/rewind until reaching zero and then stop.
20:16:37 <int-e> it's a matter of setting the cookie's domain and path, isn't it?
20:17:52 <Sgeo_> What if evil overrides a cookie that a is using?
20:18:05 <Sgeo_> But public suffix list entry for github.io should block that I think
20:18:09 <Sgeo_> For browsers that use that list
20:18:16 <Sgeo_> Fuck cookies for needing a list like that
20:20:12 <int-e> Sgeo_: evil.github.io should not be able to set a cookie for a.github.io
20:20:13 <zzo38> Just mention on your webpage to add such an entry to the list
20:21:13 <int-e> (nor should the browser send a cookie for a.github.io in requests to evil.github.io)
20:22:13 <zzo38> Another thing you can use the client's IP address for additional security measures
20:24:01 <int-e> Sgeo_: I'd assume that the purpose of the "public suffix list" is that websites cannot set cookies with such suffixes; i.e. evil.github.io cannot set a cookie for the domain .github.io, which would then be sent along with all requests to github.io websites.
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20:24:25 <int-e> so I'm unsure what you're worried about here.
20:25:21 <Sgeo_> Browsers that don't use the Public Suffix List?
20:25:46 <int-e> the cookies would still be for the wrong domains.
20:26:08 <b_jonas> int-e: the cookies contain the domains, so the servers can just ignore such cookies
20:26:26 <zzo38> A user-defined public suffix list is probably a better idea, although you can still provide lists of default values too
20:26:36 <elliott> you don't need to guess what the public suffix list is for: https://publicsuffix.org/
20:26:51 <b_jonas> int-e: the goal of the public suffix list is to prevent a DOS attack and possibly information leakage where a website would make your browser send a dozen large cookies to every site with a *.com domain
20:27:23 <elliott> you could never set cookies for *.com, anyway
20:27:43 <int-e> elliott: "Avoid privacy-damaging "supercookies" being set for high-level domain name suffixes " is what I was thinking about
20:28:19 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm not sure what exactly I wrote that you think is wrong.
20:30:13 <int-e> (Except that I didn't consider the DoS angle of attack.)
20:31:14 <b_jonas> int-e: sorry, nothing, it's fine
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21:38:12 <zzo38> Do you have Family Channel on your television?
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21:39:20 <int-e> sigh ... how do I quote an @foo on github so it doesn't get treated as an @mention thing, but gets displayed as ordinary text?
21:39:53 <int-e> `@foo` disables the @mention but adds some markup...
21:39:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: @foo`: not found
21:43:35 * int-e tries #github... sorry.
21:43:38 <Melvar> int-e: Does \@foo not do that?
21:44:07 <int-e> Melvar: unfortunately, no. The \ is displayed, and the @foo is treated as before.
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21:45:59 <int-e> (I keep running into this because @ is lambdabot's command prefix. Using `` for it is okay-ish, but not what I want.)
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22:21:31 <int-e> wow, #github is dead.
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23:27:52 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> fungot: I wouldn't mind cats or dogs or diamondies pouring down. as long as it isn't any more snow. <-- i suspect diamondies would be even harder on the car drivers. btw oslo was also unexpectedly hit by snow yesterday, complete chaos at the traditional start of easter vacation week.
23:27:52 <fungot> oerjan: slime for scheme48: http://paste.lisp.org/ list
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23:28:16 <oerjan> fungot: i already have more slime in my life than i need, thank you very much.
23:28:16 <fungot> oerjan: it wasn't a dream).
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23:31:55 <fungot> int-e: no not fnord :p.) appears to be writing about the implementation.
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23:47:54 <int-e> fizzie: putting an ⁠ after the @ "works".
23:48:07 <HackEgo> [U+0040 COMMERCIAL AT] [U+2060 WORD JOINER] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
23:48:25 <int-e> But may confuse people wanting to cut&paste. Oh well.
23:48:53 <oerjan> int-e: hey, i also use en_us.utf-8 for essentially the same reason.
23:49:16 <FireFly> I use en_GB.UTF-8 because why not
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00:02:56 <fizzie> int-e: I had an INVISIBLE TIMES there.
00:03:16 <int-e> fizzie: oh. I didn't see that :P
00:03:27 <HackEgo> [U+0040 COMMERCIAL AT] [U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
00:04:23 <HackEgo> [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0020 SPACE]
00:05:20 <oerjan> stupid irssi sticks the zero-width characters too closely to what's on their left
00:05:39 <oerjan> i vaguely thought DEL bypassed that, but apparently not
00:06:47 <zzo38> I only use the C locale because all of the others are no good
00:09:13 <int-e> oerjan: tricky. I had to select several lines in emacs to get this to paste. I saw something funny - emacs' cursor becomes narrow (1 pixel wide) when it's on a zero-width thing.
00:10:24 <oerjan> ok it was easy enough with gvim
00:10:25 <int-e> And I guess the point is to distinguish axe from axe...
00:10:42 <oerjan> if only because it makes no attempt to make that char actually zero-width...
00:10:44 <int-e> (The former meaning a*x*e)
00:11:39 <int-e> actually emacs is slightly bad - it makes the character one pixel wide.
00:13:53 <zzo38> I saw the newest Magic: the Gathering new keywords, megamorph and exploit, and then, I try to think how to make up stuff that is using that.
00:17:20 <zzo38> My opinion is whether or not it makes it one pixel wide ought to depend on the font in use; that data should be included in the font metrics.
00:17:57 <int-e> it's a fixed width font, I expect all characters to have a multiple of the base width as their width
00:18:57 <zzo38> In such case they ought to do that then and not misalign due to being one pixel wide
00:19:06 <int-e> (it's bad enough that double-width and zero-width characters exist, and don't bring up the half-wit space)
00:19:55 <FireFly> I would imagine half-width spaces are fullwidth in most monospace fonts?
00:20:07 <izabera> boredom leads to this https://gist.github.com/izabera/818223f3ff7081052ed6
00:20:09 <FireFly> I think double-width isn't that bad, it's easy enough to deal with
00:20:38 <FireFly> izabera: you are a bad person :(
00:21:17 <izabera> that's not even the worst code i ever wrote
00:22:51 <izabera> how about this https://gist.github.com/izabera/0205fe4507db17bd93f9
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00:27:20 <FireFly> too bad it isn't a polyglot :p
00:28:16 <izabera> well i guess one could just add #declare then { #declare fi }
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00:30:40 <izabera> ah dammit, the first line will never be valid c
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00:33:13 <FireFly> You could remove the shebang and invoke it with "bash" or "clang" directly
00:36:32 <pikhq> Also, without the shebang it's still executable for most purposes.
00:37:17 <pikhq> (with a call to execlp or execvp, which is what's *mostly* used, then if the binary can't be understood then the libc passes it to the shell)
00:39:03 <izabera> it's the kernel that returns ENOEXEC
00:39:11 <izabera> and the shell tries to eat it
00:39:26 <izabera> it would also try to execute perl or python :\
00:46:45 <pikhq> izabera: No, what happens is: the kernel returns ENOEXEC if it's not a valid executable, and the libc implementation of execvp or execlp specifically calls /bin/sh $file.
00:47:08 <pikhq> Perl or Python can't be run via this execution path, except if the shell script happens to say to.
00:47:33 <izabera> are you sure? i thought it was in a subshell
00:48:39 <pikhq> I am confident, by which I mean "that's what the spec says, and also what's in the sixth edition Unix source".
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00:49:31 <pikhq> Once a while back (it's somewhere in esoteric logs) I actually looked up how far back this behavior goes.
00:49:41 <pikhq> I stopped caring when I hit 6th edition.
00:50:02 <pikhq> "Meh, it's basically forever"
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00:50:43 <FireFly> "Do NOT hardcode terminal escape sequences. Use tput with the cap-names from the table below to get the right code for your terminal." b-but.. all terminals today ought to support ECMA-35 anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem
00:51:04 <int-e> Oh, it's the exec*p functions that do this.
00:51:24 <pikhq> FireFly: Yes, IMO you should just use the terminal codes these days.
00:51:38 <pikhq> I've been half-thinking of doing a simple-curses that just does ECMA-35.
00:52:29 <pikhq> ECMA-35 is the charset switching junk.
00:52:41 <pikhq> ECMA-48 is the terminal codes.
00:53:04 <pikhq> The answer to *ECMA-35* is "Just use UTF-8." :)
00:54:19 <int-e> I didn't know that... "The name "ANSI escape sequence" dates from 1981 when ANSI adopted ECMA-48 as their standard, ANSI X3.64".
00:56:59 <zzo38> Use VT100 character graphics for the G1 set and ASCII for the G0 set.
00:57:33 <FireFly> I wish the terminal would somehow get metadata about from which process/task some particular output originated, instead of getting the output from the shell/all programs running in it interleaved in one stream
00:58:05 <pikhq> Kinda tricky though.
00:58:22 <pikhq> The design of the Unix terminal system is entirely around old serial terminals.
00:59:11 <FireFly> You could probably still multiplex it in one stream in the end, but annotate with escape sequences somehow saying "the following is from the process with PID foo"
00:59:28 <zzo38> Use pipes if you want to add such annotations in, is one way
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01:08:48 <oerjan> well it's simultaneous in most of europe
01:09:12 <lambdabot> Local time for izabera is Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:11:16 +0200
01:10:02 <izabera> it just sent a ctcp request >.>
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01:10:23 <oerjan> THAT'S JUST WHAT IT WANTS YOU TO THINK
01:10:41 <izabera> well then it worked cause i'm totally thinking it :P
01:12:24 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a television show called "This is not a pipe"?
01:12:44 <izabera> http://uploads7.wikiart.org/images/rene-magritte/the-treachery-of-images-this-is-not-a-pipe-1948(2).jpg
01:13:03 <oerjan> i assumed zzo38 already knew about the painting
01:13:17 <zzo38> Yes I know about Magritte's paintings
01:13:32 <oerjan> we have an esolang based on it, after all.
01:14:54 <zzo38> Yes, I saw that too
01:14:58 <izabera> is there a bot command to search the wiki?
01:15:12 <zzo38> Not as far as I know.
01:15:20 <oerjan> zzo38: apparently there's at least a tv show _episode_ of "switched at birth"
01:15:36 <oerjan> @google magritte site:esolangs.org
01:15:59 <zzo38> To fix it you would make a SQLite interface for searching the wiki and then make that extension loadable by SQLite on HackEgo, and now you can search the wiki using SQL commands.
01:16:11 <izabera> well that's an impressive language :)
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01:26:27 <FireFly> Here I was hoping to go to bed at a reasonable time, and then I suddenly lose an hour
01:30:08 <oerjan> alas, we were merely fooling ourselves
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01:37:26 <fizzie> We were just surprised by the DST switch happening at 01am instead of the 03am it does in Finland.
01:41:22 <int-e> so same time, really
01:43:42 <fizzie> Yes, from the "same instant" point of view.
01:44:28 <fizzie> Hmm, this client isn't doing DST.
01:44:49 <fizzie> Oh, it's in "Etc/UTC" timezone.
01:44:57 <zzo38> Astrolog requires setting DST manually
01:45:21 <oerjan> fizzie: a danger of living in britain, surely
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01:46:59 <fizzie> Yes. I set this VPS in wintertime, and just assumed it was following local time. Though I guess for a VPS "Etc/UTC" is a sensible default.
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02:45:30 <zzo38> How many things are wrong with this picture? http://zzo38computer.org/img_12/vid2.jpg
02:52:19 <zzo38> There are two contradictory specifications of the duration, for one thing. The title, pictures, and description are from three different movies.
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03:06:50 <Zefphex> I aam att emerald city comic con
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03:24:51 <tswett> Hm. If I'm not mistaken, there's only one totally ordered set S, up to order isomorphism, with the following two properties.
03:25:54 <tswett> Every subset of S has a least upper bound; and there exists a countable subset T of S such that given two distinct points in S, there is an element of T between them.
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03:29:31 <tswett> I say this because Wikipedia says this:
03:29:33 <tswett> "It is a theorem that any linear continuum with a countable dense subset and no maximum or minimum element is order-isomorphic to the real line."
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03:42:08 <elliott> izabera: these bash things are disgusting. I love it
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03:48:29 <zzo38> tswett: Is there an element of T between them?
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05:44:36 <zzo38> I have the picture of a grid of Java/C/PHP/Ruby/Haskell as seen by the fans of those programming languages; now make up the new one, to also include more programming language, such as: C++, SQL, INTERCAL, Perl, Python, BASIC, Forth, Lisp, Scheme, assembly language, TeX, LaTeX, and possibly a few others.
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06:16:21 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_10/quickbasicerror.png
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09:15:51 <zzo38> Have you ever heard of a TV show called "Slug Terra"?
09:25:03 <zzo38> I have never heard of such thing until a week ago, and that was at the night time, which enabled me to notice something that I probably wouldn't have otherwise noticed.
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09:31:03 <zzo38> Do you know what kind of stuff I would notice due to such thing?
09:41:24 <izabera> i promise i will stop spamming this but i made it so much better https://gist.github.com/izabera/818223f3ff7081052ed6
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11:11:18 <oerjan> <Zefphex> and iiiam lost <-- just look for the foglios hth
11:15:16 <int-e> I'm wondering how helpful this advice can be, 8 hours after the plea for help :)
11:15:34 <oerjan> and while he's not on the channel
11:15:50 <b_jonas> fungot, how can you fit 500 sheep in a truck?
11:15:51 <fungot> b_jonas: have you ever been to europe?
11:16:34 <fungot> b_jonas: perhaps in one of my favourites!!! eheheheheeh and which were exact. expect you have to
11:16:36 <oerjan> but hey, maybe _someone_ here is there. although why they'd then be reading the channel messages i don't know.
11:17:11 <oerjan> fungot: hey not _all_ europeans know how to handle sheep badly.
11:17:11 <fungot> oerjan: but what about ( for a hcoop account, in case you have destroyed the fnord of a
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11:18:00 <oerjan> destroying fnords, a life mission
11:18:20 <int-e> b_jonas: maybe... http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sheep-rain-down-on-cars-as-truck-tips-over-highway-20120531-1zl0w.html
11:18:22 <b_jonas> seriously, the news says that today the trailer of a truck on the highway has tipped to the side, and that half of the 500 sheep the truck had carried has died
11:18:45 <b_jonas> int-e: ah, a different similar accident
11:19:17 <b_jonas> int-e: http://www.hirado.hu/2015/03/29/kamionbaleset-miatt-lezarjak-az-m7-est-zalakomarnal/ is today's news
11:19:29 <int-e> It'd be easier with dead sheep, I presume. Though perhaps you want to cool the bodies then, and then it becomes harder again.
11:19:54 <b_jonas> int-e: the news specifically says the sheep died in the accident, so they were probably alive before
11:20:05 <b_jonas> but maybe the trailer tipped because there were too many sheep
11:20:33 <b_jonas> it's already scary how a double-decker bus can carry 80 humans, and that's without a trailer
11:20:39 <oerjan> google translate, do not let me down now
11:21:46 <oerjan> i saw in the newspaper about modern cruiseships, putting 5000 people on a boat no matter how safe sounds like tempting fate to me
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11:22:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, it's scarier with humans these days because with humans you assume the intention is to deliver all of them alive
11:22:54 <b_jonas> whereas with sheep or slaves you can't be sure about that
11:23:57 * oerjan whacks HackEgo upside the head
11:24:29 <HackEgo> H2O1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:24:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: assume because if a human dies in such an accident, their insurance company will sue the transport company
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11:26:43 <int-e> oerjan: so what do you think about putting more than 500 people into a flying aluminium can with wings?
11:27:29 <int-e> b_jonas: I've found a number of similar incidents in to 100-200 sheep range. I guess 500 is rather high.
11:31:25 <int-e> haha. "Researchers have managed to get two computers to communicate using heat and thermal sensors."
11:32:41 <int-e> (from https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/03/yet_another_com.html )
11:37:57 <oerjan> next up, alien computers communicating through biological evolution
11:38:59 <oerjan> or maybe sirens of titan already did that
11:39:55 * oerjan sometimes wonders if it's a bad idea to read all these plot synopsises on wikipedia
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11:41:53 <oerjan> i suppose the next step is to use big bangs
11:43:25 <oerjan> wait, this is clearly the _real_ purpose of the bible code hth
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11:43:56 <int-e> oerjan: so that's why they built the LHC?
11:44:28 <int-e> to communicate with extra-universal(uh, is that right?) aliens?
11:45:34 <oerjan> i think extra-universal is about as technically incorrect as extra-dimensional
11:46:32 <oerjan> i'm not sure there _is_ an agreed scientific term for such a thing.
11:47:10 <FireFly> What is the relationship to inter-universal Teichmüller theory?
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11:47:38 <oerjan> i do not know, i do not understand inter-universal Teichmüller theory.
11:47:47 <Koen_> wait, so the universal turing machine was not about communicating with aliens?
11:48:09 <oerjan> Koen_: only a small step towards it hth
11:49:00 <oerjan> although there has been some scifi where you can to weird stuff with math
11:49:34 <oerjan> i never finished reading that one that was linked here
11:50:13 <oerjan> (mind you, that goes for most books these days)
11:50:52 <Koen_> vernor vinge has some interesting stuff about communication and intelligence
11:53:45 <b_jonas> nah, there are much better ways to communicate with parallel universes
11:53:52 <oerjan> god i hate muffled loud bass seeping through the building
11:55:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: you need a communication channel, which would tend to be highly dependent on exactly how you're connecting to the parallel universe...
11:56:02 <b_jonas> for example, you can swap people between the universes through transporter accidents,
11:56:39 <b_jonas> or you can leave a bowl of tungsten on your desk and hope that psychic aliens from an alternate universe will repalce it with a message written in some radioactive isotope.
11:56:57 <b_jonas> either of those seem more efficient than big bangs.
11:57:31 <b_jonas> well, unless you're the kind of guy referenced in the title text of the butterflies xkcd strip
12:02:38 <FireFly> oerjan: if you have fish seeping through the building I think you have bigger problems
12:03:41 <oerjan> FireFly: hey i already made that joke yesterday
12:04:41 <int-e> FireFly: http://www.walltanks.com/ hth
12:04:45 <oerjan> 's ok, i was hoping someone would do that
12:05:22 <int-e> now to figure out the context...
12:07:06 <int-e> <oerjan> <orin> god damn it these earbuds have too much bass <-- bass are inferior to babel fishes, anyhow <-- that's a multitude of several fish?
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12:17:03 <izabera> spot the idiot https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1202858
12:17:21 <int-e> @google plural of fish
12:17:22 <lambdabot> http://grammarist.com/usage/fish-fishes/
12:17:22 <lambdabot> Title: Fish vs. fishes - Grammarist
12:17:59 <int-e> izabera: . o O ( Why does my monitor turn into a mirror when I visit that page? )
12:20:41 <int-e> funny nick, superusersdo
12:30:38 <b_jonas> would you like mustard with your sausage, fungot?
12:30:38 <fungot> b_jonas: ok, depending on what you mean by persistance...) ( span...)) is
12:30:47 <b_jonas> oh no, he's having a lisp again
12:34:09 <fungot> oerjan: functions, macros, that can be done with the engine... the scsh wiki doesn't even have a compare-and-swap? :)
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13:02:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aldaron * New user account
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13:13:53 <oerjan> tswett: sounds like that has to be isomorphic to a closed interval
13:14:29 <oerjan> @tell tswett sounds like that has to be isomorphic to a closed interval
13:15:44 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
13:15:56 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
13:19:35 <oerjan> and a simple way to prove it is to find an isomorphism between your T and the rationals in some interval
13:20:28 <oerjan> a stern-brocot tree, say
13:21:20 <oerjan> (the "some" is because you didn't specify whether T might contain the maximum or minimum)
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13:22:54 <tswett> Actually, a one-element set has both those properties as well.
13:23:27 <tswett> So, say also that the minimum and the maximum must be distinct.
13:23:53 <oerjan> "at least two elements"
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13:25:27 <tswett> Now, the "given two points in S, there's an element of T between them" thing lets you come up with a monomorphism from the rationals in [0, 1] to T, assuming that T has at least two points.
13:28:47 <oerjan> because T is countable, it's not hard to make it onto as well
13:30:35 <oerjan> in fact, if T is a sequence you get a constructive map
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14:11:40 <boily> `relcome TheM4ch1n3
14:11:51 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 43m 58s ago: <boily> fungot: I wouldn't mind cats or dogs or diamondies pouring down. as long as it isn't any more snow. <-- i suspect diamondies would be even harder on the car drivers. btw oslo was also unexpectedly hit by snow yesterday, complete chaos at the traditional start of easter vacation week.
14:11:52 <HackEgo> TheM4ch1n3: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:12:07 <oerjan> i thnk TheM4ch1n3 has been here before
14:12:25 <boily> it may be the case, but `relcomes are idempotent.
14:12:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 291400Z 22012KT 30SM SKC M05/M13 A3021 RMK SLP233
14:13:10 * boily is still naïvely waiting for normal temperatures...
14:13:19 <lambdabot> ESSB 291350Z 14015KT 7000 -RA BKN007 03/02 Q0989 R12/29//54
14:13:21 <boily> btw, hellørjan hth.
14:13:23 <lambdabot> ENVA 291350Z VRB02KT 9999 VCSH FEW026 BKN045 08/M01 Q0982 BECMG 25012KT RMK WIND 670FT 07002KT
14:13:33 <FireFly> I realised I have an airport closer to me than ESSA
14:14:38 <lambdabot> CYOW 291400Z 23007KT 15SM FEW240 M03/M13 A3020 RMK CI1 SLP234
14:14:42 <lambdabot> CYYZ 291400Z CCA 23008KT 15SM SCT230 M01/M10 A3025 RMK CI3 CONTRAIL SLP253
14:14:50 <lambdabot> CYVR 291400Z 06011KT 12SM -RA FEW019 OVC042 09/07 A3019 RMK SF1SC7 SLP223
14:15:13 <boily> so you have to be on the other end of the country to enjoy something palatable.
14:20:23 <lambdabot> LOWI 291350Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 BKN100 15/05 Q1006 NOSIG
14:20:32 <int-e> nice spring weather
14:23:28 <int-e> . o O ( Oh yeah, the tell-tale sign of growing up: Doing household chores as a means of procrastination. )
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14:27:09 <olsner> when you procrastinate the household chores, what's that a sign of?
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14:39:28 <int-e> olsner: normal teenager behavior
14:43:47 <orin> Just only keep two of each type of utensil and two plates
14:44:24 <orin> then washing the dishes involves less work
14:44:39 <orin> especially if everything is steel or aluminum
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15:37:09 <tswett> I came up with an idea for how string literals could work in my amazing new programming language I'm creating.
15:37:33 <tswett> But this idea has dire consequences.
15:38:11 <tswett> Here's one way of writing the string literal for the word "melee": "melee"
15:38:17 <tswett> Here's another way: ""_melee_""
15:38:27 <tswett> And here's another way: ""emeeleeeee""
15:39:26 <tswett> Also, here's one way of writing the string literal for an apostrophe: "'"
15:39:30 <tswett> Here's another way: ''''''''
15:40:09 <oerjan> what string literal is AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA twh
15:40:31 <tswett> Well, the easiest way to write that would be "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".
15:40:39 <tswett> But another way would be ""AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"".
15:40:43 <oerjan> no no, the other way around hth
15:40:54 <tswett> Oh. That's not a string literal; that's an identifier.
15:41:56 <tswett> Another way of writing "I came, I saw, I conquered" would be this: "",I came,, I saw,, I conquered,""
15:42:05 <tswett> That should give you the general idea of how these weird and silly string literals work.
15:42:31 <tswett> Let's see if lambdabot magically understands these.
15:42:33 <tswett> > ""AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA""
15:42:34 <lambdabot> data constructor ‘AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
15:44:49 <tswett> The nice thing about these string literals is that they can contain apostrophes and double quotes with no problems at all.
15:45:23 <tswett> ""_Martha said, "'Get over here,' he said."_""
15:45:31 <tswett> See, you're getting the hang of it.
15:45:38 <tswett> Come back tomorrow for lesson 2!
15:57:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rerere: not found
16:03:07 <FireFly> tswett: have you considered lua-style [[strings]] or [==[strings]==] or ...
16:03:33 <tswett> FireFly: those were part of the inspiration for this idea.
16:08:39 <fungot> a1a12ab2b23bc3c34cd4d4d
16:10:13 <orin> I prefer hollerith
16:10:37 <b_jonas> how about C++ raw string literals?
16:11:35 <b_jonas> they're useful because they let you use multi-character delimiters, so you don't have to choose a single character that can't appear in the string
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16:11:49 <tswett> b_jonas: I'm not familiar with those.
16:12:31 <b_jonas> tswett: the syntax is like this, R"(foo)" is equivalent to "foo", and so is R"bar(foo)bar"
16:12:55 <tswett> Tyhöistä ja alaatera olen.
16:13:35 <b_jonas> in raw string literals, nothing other than the delimiter has a special meaning. backslashes, parenthesis, double quotes, single quotes, question marks are all literal. newlines are allowed and aren't translated, the newlines gets in the value of the string as it's present in the source, which could be cr-lf or lf or whatever.
16:14:10 <b_jonas> backslash escapes or trigraphs can't be used in such string literals. you can concatenate multiple raw string literals by juxtaposing them, just like with ordinary string literals.
16:16:29 <tswett> I've also thought about doing that sort of thing.
16:17:40 <tswett> "" (Note, by the way, that the custom delimiter can't be whitespace. This message is the empty string, followed by a bunch of identifiers, followed by the empty string again.) ""
16:17:59 <tswett> Yes, "can't" is a valid identifier even though ' is a string delimiter. "(Note," is also a valid identifier.
16:18:25 <tswett> fungot: what's your opinion on all this?
16:18:25 <fungot> tswett: to return ( 1... 10) and then under my name point out the damage that regular bikes can do to prevent crimes from happening, and when
16:18:32 <orin> hollerith is easier to generate reliably
16:18:49 <orin> but harder for humans
16:19:32 <tswett> 'bash-style literals aren'\''t hard for programs to generate.'
16:20:00 <b_jonas> tswett: but then you can't denote the empty string by ""
16:20:18 <tswett> b_jonas: what do you mean?
16:21:08 <b_jonas> if you use two double quotes (rather than three like python does) as a delimiter, then you can't use two double quotes for the traditional meaning of a string literal with an empty string value
16:21:19 <orin> Hmm, how about a compromise in the style of Joel Spolsky's 14"fucked strings"
16:22:05 <orin> in other words, have a length, delimiter, the string and then a required end delimiter
16:22:58 <tswett> I'm never using two quote marks, alone, as a delimiter.
16:24:23 <tswett> """This is a valid string literal consisting of the string S, a quotation mark, S again, another quotation mark, and a period, where the string S is "This is a valid string literal consisting of the string S, a quotation mark, S again, another quotation mark, and a period, where the string S is "."""
16:25:36 <orin> the empty string in hollerith is 0"
16:25:50 <orin> in quoted holerith it is 0""
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16:42:17 <tswett> Which apparently I could type if I only had a <dead_greek> key.
16:52:00 <b_jonas> tswett: no, it's ε actually. "ɛ" is the pronunciation symbol that looks the same.
16:52:53 <b_jonas> (or at least may look the same, depending on the font you use for greek letters)
16:54:16 <b_jonas> come on people, don't keep mixing up similar looking characters
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17:18:24 <oren> hollerith strings have an additional problem. Consider 2"私 which is valid if the encoding is shift-jis, but the number needs to be 3 in utf-8
17:20:23 <zzo38> That isn't too much of a problem if one program uses one character encoding for one string literal.
17:20:43 <zzo38> And that changing the encoding isn't allowed.
17:21:11 <zzo38> (This is independent of whether or not the programming language cares about encoding or not.)
17:22:37 <oren> right. as long as code is never converted from one encoding to another there is no problem
17:23:02 <FireFly> tswett: you could get a <greek> modifier by abusing ISO_Group_Latch
17:23:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: α: not found
17:24:10 <tswett> Uh, what channel was that a command in.
17:24:16 <zzo38> Yes, and my opinion is that the code shouldn't be converted from one encoding to another.
17:25:05 <tswett> b_jonas: whoops. I meant to say ε, not ε.
17:25:21 <b_jonas> tswett: those are the same
17:25:36 <oren> they look the same to me
17:25:49 <tswett> I meant to say "I meant to say ε, not ɛ.", not "I meant to say ε, not ε."
17:26:30 <tswett> oren: shouldn't the number refer to the number of characters following rather than the number of bytes following?
17:26:40 <tswett> Everyone knows code is made of characters, not bytes.
17:26:57 <oren> that makes it rather hard to allow strings in several encodings?
17:27:30 <FireFly> I think lenght-prefixed isn't very user-friendly in a source language
17:27:48 <tswett> As in, in the middle of some source code that's in one encoding, embed a string literal that's in a different encoding in order to get those bytes?
17:28:11 <tswett> Everyone knows strings are made of characters, not bytes.
17:28:34 <b_jonas> tswett: now nest that two more levels exponentially, and put ∈ in somewhere!
17:28:42 <oren> yeah, consider a program that has to operate in China (with utf-16) and japan (with shift-jis)
17:29:20 <oren> there is no such thing as an encoding-independent "character"
17:30:19 <FireFly> Just mandate one of the Unicode encoding as the True Encoding for source files
17:30:35 <oren> Unicode has han unification
17:32:04 <oren> Firefly: and mandate conversion at run time from unicode to local encoding?
17:33:11 <oren> encodign conversions are not fast
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17:34:57 <oren> much better to keep string for each locale in its local encoding
17:36:50 <oren> note that many multibyte encodings such as UTF-16 can't be mixed with ascii properly without hollerith, because the byte " can occur as part of a character
17:40:51 <FireFly> I thought encoding conversion was fast enough usually
17:40:57 <FireFly> Depends on the encoding I suppose
17:41:40 <oren> Unicode normalization is I believe the main problem.
17:42:53 <oren> conversion of shift-jis TO unicode is easy
17:43:26 <oren> unicode in general can't be converted back
17:45:08 <oren> (which isn't usually a problem, but if you care about distinctions that unicode doesn't carea bout after normalization...)
17:46:27 <oren> I wonder what happens if I convert a string with french accents in it into shift-jis
17:48:08 <pikhq> Why not simply refuse to even deal in not-UTF-8?
17:48:23 <pikhq> And leave legacy charsets for legacy applications.
17:49:04 <oren> because there are uncoding used today which aren't utf-8
17:49:27 <oren> windows uses UTF-16 for non-english, for exaple
17:49:30 <zzo38> Normally you should not use this Hollerith notation anyways, so isn't too much problem
17:49:47 <pikhq> And that's a massive bug on Windows' part.
17:50:03 <oren> according to you
17:50:07 <pikhq> (keeping in mind, of course, that UTF-16 <-> UTF-8 is lossless for valid strings)
17:50:41 <oren> and much of the japanese internet uses Shift-JIS
17:50:44 <zzo38> I think you should mandate ASCII as the True Encoding for source files
17:50:58 <pikhq> Shift-JIS is also dying in Japan. Quite rapidly.
17:51:00 <zzo38> And allow UTF-8 and PC character set and stuff too, but disallow UTF-16
17:51:19 <FireFly> zzo38: that's easy if you're in an english-speaking country
17:51:29 <FireFly> still somewhat easy in a european country
17:51:41 <FireFly> (with a latin-based orthography)
17:51:52 <FireFly> Then it quickly gets more impractical..
17:53:19 <FireFly> oren: what kind of distinctions, by the way?
17:53:42 <zzo38> If the programming language isn't using non-English words in general, then you should use ASCII as the input character set. String literals and comments can use other encodings, or even just written in a ASCII representation and converted to other encodings using macros (you can even convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 using macros then). Also some things just aren't in Unicode anyways, and Unicode normalization and stuff confuses everything
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17:54:38 <zzo38> Nevertheless if a comment is written in UTF-8 or Shift-JIS or ISO-8859-1 or whatever, the compiler shouldn't care. Same if it is a string literal it shouldn't care.
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17:55:43 <oren> But some string literal syntaxes don't work with certain encodings
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18:01:06 <tswett> Does Shift-JIS make distinctions that Unicode doesn't?
18:01:24 <pikhq> No known charsets do.
18:02:07 <tswett> Then I don't see any obvious problem with saying that your source code consists of a sequence of Unicode characters.
18:02:09 <pikhq> And if they do, "a charset makes this distinction" is reason enough to add a char to Unicode.
18:04:02 <tswett> Yeah, my impression is that Unicode cares a lot about translation into Unicode being reversible.
18:04:29 <oren> conversion of unicode back to shift-jis, is the problem, because in orer for source code to convert properly, it involves lots of normalization
18:05:03 <oren> which isn't necessary if you KNOW your code consists only of sjis compatible characters
18:05:28 <oren> but the compiler can't know that
18:06:27 <oren> pikhq: yes, because unicode contains lots of characters that sjis doesn't distinguish
18:07:21 <oren> forget kanji, consider math-greek vs. greek?
18:07:26 <pikhq> It is incredibly unlikely in the process of compilation that the compiler magically introduced a bunch of characters that aren't in SJIS.
18:07:53 <pikhq> (or that it's freaking relevant -- why does the compiler have to be converting jack shit back to SJIS?)
18:08:31 <oren> otherwise you are converting at run time... which needs to be even more general
18:09:01 <pikhq> You... probably do otherwise.
18:09:27 <pikhq> Unless you are providing a damned weird execution environment where you're compile-time Unicode but run-time SJIS.
18:09:38 <tswett> oren: are you saying that conversion from SJIS to Unicode is not reversible?
18:10:04 <pikhq> tswett: They are saying that SJIS->Unicode->COMPILER MAGIC->SJIS may not work.
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18:10:25 <pikhq> Because a compiler is *really* going to magically introduce a bunch of random Unicode codepoints that aren't in SJIS.
18:10:28 <oren> correct, not if you want to use the same system for general unicode-to-sjis as for "unicode from sjis"->sjis
18:11:15 <oren> otherwise it is like you need a data type for "unicode, but guearanteed to have only the chars from sjis in it"
18:11:28 <pikhq> I'm quite amused, BTW, that you're arguing this with SJIS of all things. That is perhaps the single worst legacy charset in existence.
18:13:00 <tswett> oren: I don't suppose you could give an example of some text where the SJIS-to-Unicode-to-SJIS conversion would fail?
18:13:11 <oren> SJIS is USED. WIDELY. I don't know where you're getting your information, but the PC games I bought last year don't work under wine becasue I need SJIS.
18:13:36 <pikhq> *siiigh* Windows boogs.
18:13:58 <pikhq> SJIS is *used*, yes. SJIS is also *objectively terrible*.
18:14:05 <oren> tswett: that's not the problem. the problem is that it would be slow because unicode is complicated
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18:15:01 <pikhq> http://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/locale/iconv.c I dunno, that doesn't look that bad.
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18:17:48 <pikhq> (by the by, here is Windows' fundamental execution model: everything, *everything* is Unicode. For purposes of legacy compat it has a number of legacy-charset functions that convert strings to/from Unicode before calling the real ones.)
18:18:14 <oren> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
18:18:48 <pikhq> (that Japanese programs happen to only ever use the legacy functions is, well, a bug.)
18:19:03 <oren> pikhq: according to you.
18:19:55 <pikhq> Lemme find the MSDN page.
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18:21:33 <pikhq> (though it ends up being really obvious this is the way it *has* to work if you're familiar at all with NT internals)
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18:21:42 <oren> iconv -fUTF-8 -tSHIFT-JIS | iconv -fSHIFT-JIS -tUTF-8 fails on a lot of stuff
18:22:05 <pikhq> It's more than likely the first bit that fails.
18:22:25 <pikhq> iconv -fSHIFT-JIS -tUTF-8 | iconv -fUTF-8 -tSHIFT-JIS should round-trip.
18:22:28 <oren> it fails on stuff that is supported in both charsets
18:24:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidecoe: not found
18:25:04 <HackEgo> U+E60A - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ee 98 8a UTF-16BE: e60a Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+E60A \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
18:25:16 <pikhq> WTF char is that supposed to be?
18:26:38 <pikhq> That... is not even remotely valid shift-jis.
18:27:18 <oren> how about hisone 誧
18:27:33 <oren> http://rikai.com/library/kanjitables/kanji_codes.sjis.shtml
18:28:31 <pikhq> (for clarification, the char you output the first time was 0xEE 0x98 0x8a. Which is *not a legal encoding in Shift-JIS*)
18:29:05 <HackEgo> [U+8AA7 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8AA7]
18:30:25 <pikhq> The fuck is wrong with glibc iconv?
18:30:52 <pikhq> The fucking Unicode tables have that mapping.
18:32:47 <pikhq> Oh for the love of
18:33:08 <pikhq> "Shift-JIS" to glibc iconf refers to an old version of Shift-JIS that did not have the character.
18:33:23 <oren> that explains that
18:33:29 <pikhq> iconv -fUTF-8 -tshift_jisx0213
18:36:19 <oren> that's a weird name, since the official sources call it shift-jis-2004
18:36:45 <oren> oh well, it makes sence
18:36:57 <pikhq> It's a standard from 2004, entitled JISx0213.
18:37:29 <pikhq> I don't think glibc much coordinates with your official source.
18:39:40 <oren> http://x0213.org/. JISx0213 is a character set, Shift-jis is a method of encoding it. JISx0213 is like unicode, Shift-jis is like uft-8
18:39:57 <oren> sorry, shift-jis-2004
18:40:47 <pikhq> JISx0213 does include a definition of Shift-JIS IIRC.
18:40:59 <pikhq> Well, suppose I could just check, you did link to it. :)
18:41:44 <oren> I looked at the encoding table. they apparently have added a lot of characters to unicode to ensure compatibility
18:42:32 <pikhq> Yep. Unicode policy is that charsets should roundtrip, and country charsets cooperate to ensure this.
18:42:44 <pikhq> Yep, quite clearly defines Shift-JIS but also as "Shift-JIS-2004".
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18:55:25 <oren> I dunno if they are cooperating. The jis-213 plane 2 characters 85-84 to 85-87 (that is, four variants of the grass radical) appear to spell out "fuck you han unifaction" to me
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19:39:16 <zzo38> Do you write any UNIX-style filter programs much, or do you do other ways?
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20:29:05 <oren> I usually write programs as filters if they only have one input and one output.
20:32:29 <zzo38> Yes, but it seem as suitable for many things, to have one input and one output.
20:35:56 <oren> What. What does virtual void shade(Ray3D&) = 0; mean in C++
20:36:30 <oren> i'm initializing the memeber funtion to zero?
20:36:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42240&oldid=42226 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
20:37:56 <pikhq> oren: It means it's a pure virtual function.
20:38:06 <oren> Oh, it means the virtual function MUST be overridden?
20:38:48 <pikhq> It's a bit weird, but more-or-less what that's doing is setting the vtable entry for the class to 0.
20:39:01 <oren> ok. that is a dumb syntax, but in a language where you bit-shift files by varibles, I can deal.
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21:09:03 <zzo38> Do vtables in C++ have to store functions or can you put other stuff in?
21:13:37 <zzo38> Such as constants, I suppose
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21:28:08 <zzo38> You could even in C, make something a bit like QueryInterface and using interface IDs made with macros and stuff. Still this is different than IUnknown; the pointer here is only to a constant vtable, or null if the interface is not supported; actually much simpler than Microsoft's version. But, I would be using some GNU extensions here, such as zero-length arrays.
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22:05:35 <oerjan> <fungot> tswett: to return ( 1... 10) and then under my name point out the damage that regular bikes can do to prevent crimes from happening, and when <-- this sounds reasonable but what happened to _our_ regular bike?
22:05:35 <fungot> oerjan: are those all volunteers? " smerdyakov" " richter") t
22:06:17 <olsner> fungot: do you hae a regular bike?
22:06:18 <fungot> olsner: err never mind. :) :( :( :( :(
22:07:23 <oerjan> fungot: WHAT DID YOU DO TO BIKE
22:07:24 <fungot> oerjan: the only problem was not showing any of the other
22:12:33 <olsner> ooh, bike is a person!
22:12:40 <olsner> or was, depending on fungot
22:12:40 <fungot> olsner: unless after all these months i cant stand 4chan was the first step in converting infix to prefix notation
22:30:05 <oren> I thought the first step in converting infix to prefix is the google "[name of language] precedence table"
22:30:51 <oren> but I suppose if I posted it to 4chan Hitler will answer my quaestion
22:36:24 <FireFly> fungot: what did you do to Bike?
22:36:24 <fungot> FireFly: c) execution time exceeds some limit on identifier length, there's a pdf somewhere with it.
22:38:15 <fizzie> Sounds like a government conspiracy.
23:41:02 <zzo38> This is a C code to work objects supporting multiple interfaces: http://sprunge.us/aUEL
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01:41:10 <fungot> boily: i thought you were wanting to write up a complete stranger based solely on the arguments.
01:41:32 <boily> fungot: no, just post-modern associative chickenny vocabularism.
01:41:32 <fungot> boily: i have a question about erc. do you do
01:41:42 <boily> fungot: no, I don't. what's erc twh?
01:41:43 <fungot> boily: ha, i thought it was to become popular, it seems. :) i was just guessing!!
01:41:53 <fungot> boily: so k is ignored entirely
01:42:08 <boily> fungot: perhaps. «k» isn't really French, you know.
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02:02:23 <boily> going to sleep, but I have the cookies. will send you something canadian shortly.
02:02:29 <boily> yup. lots of work tomorrow!
02:02:39 <quintopia> that i can buy maple leaf cookies at the corner store
02:03:18 <boily> goodnight! dreams of the Great White North!
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05:17:38 <zzo38> I cannot easily duplicate schedules on the VCR, I have to rekey them each time. (It is possible to set a repeating schedule, but then it juts repeats forever and doesn't have many other options.)
05:19:10 <zzo38> Actually it is a VCR/DVD combo
05:19:24 <vodkode> I have no idea about the scheduler
05:19:33 <vodkode> I was just curious, because its so rare today to hear about VHS
05:20:20 <zzo38> Well, I still use it, mostly for recording, but also can be used for watching other older movies and so on
05:21:10 <zzo38> If it is a recording I intend to keep then I will use DVD though.
05:23:25 <vodkode> The best editors for VHS were commodore ammigas
05:23:51 <vodkode> I knew a guy that kept one until like 2008 (and used it) for doing transfers and edits on old svhs stuff
05:24:31 <zzo38> I have seen a manual for Video Toaster
05:24:50 <vodkode> well newtek began on the amiga
05:25:09 <vodkode> video toasters, lightwave and the late Aura paint (and currently TVPaint) were all amiga staples
05:25:59 <vodkode> The good old days of 68060 processors that run 25mhz and carried the BBS into the basement
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05:38:40 <zzo38> O, that's what depression means? OK
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06:25:27 * pikhq is pleased, though not surprised, that they're not doubling up on efforts when there's actually something in the wild that does what they want without sucking.
06:28:11 <pikhq> Though sadly (if understandably) their rm does not conform to POSIX.
06:28:35 <pikhq> Did you know: rm -r is required to delete trees of arbitrary depth?
06:29:28 <pikhq> But it only supports deleting file trees of limited depth.
06:29:33 <pikhq> Implicit, but limited depth.
06:29:48 <pikhq> One of a stack overflow or running out of file descriptors will cause it to fail.
06:30:40 <pikhq> POSIX explicitly requires rm, and only rm, to literally deal with directory trees of *unbound* depth.
06:31:26 <pikhq> Though that they fail to meet this requirement is pretty understandable. It's possible to do, even portably and fairly safely, but it's dang *tricky*.
06:31:43 <izabera> also several others i believe
06:32:40 <pikhq> Nah, not really. For all other utils POSIX doesn't require such behavior.
06:33:05 <pikhq> "The rm utility shall be able to descend to arbitrary depths in a file hierarchy, and shall not fail due to path length limitations (unless an operand specified by the user exceeds system limitations)."
06:33:56 <pikhq> This requirement is unique to rm. In part because you can't possibly meet it ordinarily.
06:34:43 <pikhq> rm, it's possible because you do not have to worry about visiting any node repeatedly.
06:36:03 <pikhq> You can literally just hold an fd referring to the top of the tree and do a depth-first search of the hierarchy, deleting everything you see.
06:36:21 <pikhq> And if you get to the bottom just do an fchdir back to the top of the tree.
06:36:41 <pikhq> (this is a pretty *inefficient* implementation, and you can do much better than that, but it's the simplest one that's correct)
06:36:49 <Sgeo> Who runs the Heaven's Gate website?
06:37:03 <pikhq> Everything else you can "merely" deal in quite sizable trees.
06:37:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: A former member of Heaven's Gate.
06:38:52 <Sgeo> It looks pro-Heaven's Gate though, unless they're keeping it up for archival purposes
06:39:02 <pikhq> That's precisely why they're keeping it up.
06:39:48 <pikhq> The current contents of the site are literally an edit to it that was made shortly before the cult committed mass suicide.
06:40:46 <pikhq> Also interesting, apparently that "hard copy editions may be ordered" blurb is still true.
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06:48:14 * pikhq may have to write some patches for sbase
06:48:43 <pikhq> ... *after* I finish my current, nasty project.
06:49:07 <pikhq> windows.h for musl-on-Windows.
06:49:20 <pikhq> I said it was nasty. :)
06:49:38 <izabera> didn't even know that musl was ported to windows
06:50:27 <pikhq> Yep. No more dealing with the nastiness of mingw.
06:50:50 <izabera> hey i started programming with mingw :(
06:51:01 <izabera> in high school, with dev-c++
06:51:12 * pikhq finds himself still a little mind-blown at the not-suck fork() implementation
06:52:51 <izabera> lemme tell you something that's windows related: yesterday i wanted to watch a movie w/ my family on my father's computer but the movie didn't fit in my usb pendrive
06:53:06 <izabera> so yeah of course it takes a minute with dd to split it
06:53:14 <izabera> then i went to his computer with windows
06:53:21 <izabera> how the fuck do i join the pieces?
06:53:41 <izabera> i ended up downloading cygwin to have cat -_-
06:54:01 <pikhq> copy /b files... dest
06:54:27 <pikhq> When you have a single file as a destination DOS copy concatenates the files.
06:54:52 <izabera> well first of all that's fucking misleading
06:55:18 <pikhq> Nobody accused DOS of being even remotely reasonable. :)
06:57:37 <pikhq> Though its command prompt is rather more featureful than you might expect.
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06:58:09 <pikhq> (they straight-up copied Unix's file redirection syntax)
06:58:24 <pikhq> I won't accuse it of being good.
06:58:39 <pikhq> Indeed I dare say it's the worst CLI that you're likely to come across.
06:59:04 <izabera> i actually tried to use rc as a shell
06:59:14 <pikhq> But it's got a lot of features hidden behind the scenes that people might not expect it to have.
06:59:44 <pikhq> IIRC rc's not bad, but it is gonna confuse the heck out of you if you expect a Bourne-esque shell.
06:59:44 <izabera> the advantage: switch case syntax is decent instead of that crap of case/esac of the bourne shell that we still have today
06:59:52 <izabera> the disadvantage: everything else
07:00:09 <pikhq> And it's also designed around the Plan9 environment, leaving it rather crippled on Unix.
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07:00:36 <pikhq> e.g. it doesn't have any form of editing... because that's in Plan9's terminal layer.
07:00:44 <pikhq> Hey, it's got a lot of interesting ideas.
07:01:07 <izabera> the only intersting idea is to return a string -_-
07:01:09 <pikhq> And (quite reasonably) everyone's gone out and pilfered the ideas from Plan9 that aren't terrible.
07:01:24 <izabera> this is kill(1) from plan9port
07:01:36 <pikhq> So what's all that interesting about it, is no longer all that interesting because it's just stuff you expect.
07:01:54 <izabera> /bin/kill 317 # izabera 317 07:44 0:00 5104K wait bash
07:01:56 <izabera> /bin/kill 398 # izabera 398 07:46 0:00 3248K wait bash
07:01:58 <izabera> /bin/kill 428 # izabera 428 07:46 0:18 3316K pipe_w bash
07:02:05 <izabera> that kill >>prints<< stuff
07:02:09 <izabera> that you're supposed to pipe to rc
07:02:18 <izabera> which will call the actual kill program
07:02:32 <izabera> i can't believe how dumb it is
07:03:58 <pikhq> Well yeah. Plan9 defeats all your reasonable expectations of behavior, because it's what happens when you take a simple design philosophy, use it as much as possible, and damn expectations of familiarity *or* ease of use. :)
07:04:29 <pikhq> It's an academic research project and boy is it obvious.
07:04:53 <izabera> also i hate their mouse driven interface for everything but that's just me
07:05:36 <izabera> also their wm is fugly but again that's just my opinion
07:06:09 <pikhq> Its GUI is something only a user of pre-Mac GUIs could love.
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07:06:52 <pikhq> As you might expect considering it's a direct descendent of a pre-Mac GUI. :)
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07:08:17 <pikhq> Rio's basically the spiritual successor to the Blit terminal (which was a graphics terminal designed by Rob Pike for use with 8th Edition Unix).
07:09:12 <pikhq> So no, I won't pretend Plan9 is a bastion of good design. But by god it's got a lot of interesting bits in it.
07:10:05 <pikhq> Course, a decent number of the *good* interesting bits have become standard parts of Unix systems, though maybe not implemented as well.
07:10:16 <pikhq> Most obviously is /proc.
07:11:19 <pikhq> Oh blah *no* it doesn't.
07:11:34 <pikhq> It's like the one that doesn't, huh.
07:12:11 <pikhq> It's in Solaris, IRIX, Tru64, all the BSDs, Linux, AIX, and QNX, but *not* OS X.
07:12:13 <izabera> you're too used to linux :P
07:13:29 <pikhq> It's in *4.4* BSD no less. Huh.
07:14:25 <pikhq> I suppose NeXT just forked too late to import it and nobody bothered adding it.
07:14:58 <pikhq> So, modern-ish Unices without /proc: OS X, HPUX.
07:15:43 <pikhq> I'm happy calling that a de facto standard considering that neither of those even implement POSIX 2008. :P
07:20:37 <izabera> is there a userland that's strictly posix compliant and nothing more?
07:22:07 <pikhq> Well, no. POSIX omits certain details that you might reasonably expect.
07:22:12 <pikhq> ... such as mount(1).
07:22:39 <izabera> ok let me revert back to userland
07:23:15 <izabera> i'd be interested in a full set of utilities that are exactly posix and nothing more
07:24:05 <pikhq> That too will have some omissions that will shock you, as well as differences in behavior between common implementations and what POSIX says.
07:24:14 <pikhq> DID YOU KNOW: tar is not specified in POSIX 2008.
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07:25:16 <pikhq> The file format of ar is not at all specified, only its interaction with the C compiler.
07:25:42 <pikhq> If the C compiler reads .zip archives, ar could be a zip archiver for all that POSIX cares.
07:25:48 <pikhq> And zcat is specified, but it does not deal in gzip files.
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07:28:16 <pikhq> I think those are the most interesting omissions or complete differences in behavior from what you might expect.
07:28:43 <pikhq> There's other utils that are missing of course, but those are mostly ones relevant to system administration but not necessarily normal use.
07:29:05 <pikhq> Or ones that are pretty obviously not standard utils but just common on distros, like md5sum. :)
07:30:15 <pikhq> What I find really bizarre is some of the utils that POSIX *does* specify even though it has no real point in doing so.
07:30:29 <pikhq> Like, it specifies SCCS.
07:30:41 <pikhq> You may know that as the predecessor to the predecessor of CVS.
07:31:08 <pikhq> But POSIX does not need to specify it, now does it?
07:31:25 <pikhq> Keeping in mind that they *don't specify tar anymore*.
07:31:26 <izabera> that standard is more descriptive than prescriptive
07:31:40 <pikhq> (yes, "anymore". They *used to*.)
07:32:26 <pikhq> Yes, but it also mostly subsets what it describes to what's got a point in being described, rather than describing what happens to be common to all Unices.
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07:34:25 <pikhq> ... Hence why it has interesting bits like "the only file that POSIX requires to exist is /dev/null".
07:35:45 <pikhq> "//C:\POSIX\sh" would be a 100% conformant if bizarre path for the shell to be at.
07:36:19 <izabera> posix requires /dev/zero /dev/null /dev/full and /dev/tty
07:36:31 <pikhq> Oh, derp so it does. I missed a couple.
07:36:52 <pikhq> /dev/null is the memorable one to me for some reason. Go figure.
07:37:36 <pikhq> And come to think of it, I doubt you can get away with atypical path separators even in //.
07:40:09 <pikhq> Oh, nope, that's still allowed.
07:40:19 <pikhq> "If a pathname begins with two successive <slash> characters, the first component following the leading <slash> characters may be interpreted in an implementation-defined manner, although more than two leading <slash> characters shall be treated as a single <slash> character."
07:40:57 <pikhq> But //C:\POSIX/bin\sh wouldn't really work. Hrm.
07:42:59 <izabera> `` dirname //////////foo/bar
07:43:11 * izabera was expecting something else
07:43:36 <pikhq> But that's the exact algorithm specified in POSIX.
07:44:54 <izabera> Since the meaning of the leading "//" is implementation-defined, dirname("//foo) may return either "//" or '/' (but nothing else).
07:45:39 <pikhq> Note that it's the meaning of *precisely two* slashes that's implementation-defined.
07:46:07 <pikhq> Three or more slashes is the same as /
07:46:09 <izabera> did you know that head -c is not posix
07:46:39 <izabera> since the closest thing i can think of is a rather inefficient hack with dd
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08:00:00 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
08:00:05 <izabera> it's a device that returns an error when you try to write to it
08:30:16 <Taneb> I've just realised that enigmatic means like an enigma
08:30:21 <Taneb> How did I miss that
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08:41:56 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
08:43:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/Lachine/Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing/' wisdom/boily
08:43:51 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
08:45:01 * oerjan suddenly wonders what's really in those cookies
08:46:09 <oerjan> <quintopia> that i can buy maple leaf cookies at the corner store <-- whoops
08:46:21 <oerjan> another dealing empire crushed
08:46:25 <shachaf> i am in possession of some p. bad cookies
08:46:39 <oerjan> shachaf: did you get them from kmc
08:46:57 <shachaf> i would expect better quality cookies from kmc
08:47:52 <oerjan> i've been making drugz jokes since i entered the channel, pay attention.
08:49:08 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
08:49:21 <shachaf> amortization is the process of becoming immortal, right?
08:50:03 <oerjan> or possibly the opposite.
08:50:57 <oerjan> ironically since i added that, whenever i've needed the word either HackEgo has been down or i actually managed to remember it.
08:51:28 <oerjan> honestly, i cannot entirely remember. except that i remembered it once.
08:52:04 <oerjan> "From (the stem of) Middle French amortir (“to bring to death”), probably from Late Latin *admortīre, from Latin ad + mortem."
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09:10:54 <mroman> What's actually the defintion of premature death?
09:11:36 <mroman> You die sooner than you should've based on...?
09:11:59 <Jafet> Death before maturity
09:12:28 <Jafet> Or perhaps that's immature death
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09:32:59 <mroman> Jafet: apparentely "sitting" is linked to 9% of premature death.
09:33:19 <mroman> which suggests that if you didn't sit that long you wouldn't have died a premature death
09:33:29 <mroman> which probably means you've lived another two years or something?
09:33:54 <mroman> by that definition every death is premature because I'm sure you could've always lived a little bit healthier than you did
09:34:20 <mroman> death by accidents are probably premature anyway as well.
09:34:31 <mroman> since you die before you should've died.
09:34:59 <mroman> unless you believe in destiny and that it was always clear that you'll die that way then it's probably not premature but preprogrammed
09:36:17 <mroman> "Years of potential life lost (YPLL) or potential years of life lost (PYLL), is an estimate of the average years a person would have lived if he or she had not died prematurely."
09:46:15 <Taneb> mroman, I think death from old age or treatable illness or injury is not counted as premature?
09:48:31 <mroman> How do you die by "old age"?
09:48:49 <mroman> Heart suddenly stops? Brain suddently stops?
09:49:05 <mroman> maybe you could've slown down the aging process somehow
09:49:08 <mroman> by eating an apple a day
09:53:26 <mroman> Taneb: did you mean "untreatable illnesses"?
09:53:35 <mroman> dieing of an illness that can be treated could be seen as premature
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10:31:13 <Taneb> `run echo "thants" > wisdom/thanks\ ants
10:32:34 <boily> Tanelle! (or is it Thanksanebelle?)
10:33:04 <oerjan> boily: only when he's cosplaying
10:34:37 <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times
10:34:44 <boily> `` grep -FInr 'sprø' wisdom/*
10:34:47 <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaing
10:35:05 <shachaf> Taneb: but now you are cosplaining
10:35:44 <HackEgo> wisdom/shachaf:1:shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
10:36:44 <boily> shachaf: shellochellof. you sly fiend!
10:36:56 <Taneb> Anyway I have been watching Look Around You again
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10:38:05 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaing
10:38:15 <HackEgo> 1239) <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaing
10:38:28 <Taneb> oerjan, can we edit that so it looks like I didn't make that typo in the second line?
10:38:55 <oerjan> maybe if you say the corrected version literally.
10:39:21 <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
10:39:35 <shachaf> now we gotta put an ellipsis in
10:39:47 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times [...] <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
10:39:53 <oerjan> shachaf: way ahead of you
10:40:11 <shachaf> oerjan: the timestamps indicate otherwise hth
10:40:18 <HackEgo> 1239) <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times [...] <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
10:41:00 <int-e> "I'm a Taneb. That's what they look like. The movie's going to be released in Autumn."
10:41:20 <oerjan> Taneb: did you take a picture of your non-cosplayingness
10:41:35 <oerjan> so we can judge for ourselves
10:42:26 <Taneb> oerjan, not a very good one
10:42:32 <Taneb> Maybe someone else did
10:43:09 <shachaf> oerjan: is your good twin named o⃥rjan by any chance twh
10:43:30 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
10:43:32 <oerjan> i thought this had been made clear.
10:43:52 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+20E5 COMBINING REVERSE SOLIDUS OVERLAY]
10:46:20 <Taneb> oerjan, what sort of papers does your good twin publish?
10:46:58 <shachaf> apparently papers about LSD for alcoholism: http://jop.sagepub.com/content/26/7/994.short
10:47:27 <shachaf> by your pal, oerjan johansen
10:47:48 <Taneb> oerjan, are they like maths papers?
10:47:57 <Taneb> Because maths papers are like my favourite kind of paper
10:48:01 <oerjan> ah pål-ørjan, my old nemesis
10:48:44 <shachaf> Taneb: my usage is that e.g. geometry and topology are maths, which is to say that e.g. topology is a math
10:49:13 <Taneb> shachaf, I agree emotionally but not pedantically with that usage
10:49:30 <oerjan> Taneb: he's been slacking off on the mathy papering for a decade, though
10:50:10 <shachaf> whoa, a paper by ørjan on ergodic theory
10:51:20 <shachaf> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%C3%B8rjan+johansen
10:51:48 <shachaf> Over 30 million psychedelic users in the United States
10:53:05 <Taneb> Maybe one day I'll write a maths paper
10:53:40 <shachaf> you should write a maths paper with your pål ørjan
10:54:03 <oerjan> i doubt he'd understand it
10:55:22 <Taneb> Unfortunately I am just a little undergraduate
10:56:18 <shachaf> Taneb: does that stop you from writing maths papers
10:56:27 <Taneb> shachaf, not in of itself
10:56:43 <Taneb> But I do not know as much maths as some people who used to be undergraduates but then graduated!
10:57:44 <shachaf> how many maths do you know
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11:00:24 <oerjan> wait should it be tudom or not
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11:04:52 <Taneb> What would I even write a paper about
11:11:20 <oerjan> a tanebvention of course
11:19:17 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
11:20:25 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
11:20:42 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
11:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you've invented a lot of things since last i checked
11:21:21 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's not something I can help
11:21:40 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
11:21:59 <boily> after persistence hth
11:22:05 <Taneb> Couple of years back
11:22:37 <Taneb> I was thinking about things that are topologically equivalent to a torus, and lo and behold I discovered the torus
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11:27:31 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
11:27:53 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
11:29:02 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
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13:37:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lazy K]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42241&oldid=20133 * 79.247.175.208 * (-8) Fixed specification link
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14:17:47 <cpressey> "'Arrows' is a really stupid name because in saying what an arrow is I'm forced to use the word 'arrow' in two diferent senses, one for Hughes meaning and one for the usual meaning from category theory. It's like deciding that the prime numbers bigger than 20 are interesting for some reason and then choosing to give them a name, 'the primes'."
14:26:33 <cpressey> maybe i could have invented monads, with enough pressure to refactor some functional code that builds and extracts pairs everywhere, but i probably wouldn't have called them monads
14:27:08 <cpressey> ( http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html )
14:27:08 <idris-bot> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html )<EOF>
14:27:33 <cpressey> good to know you're paying attention
14:28:14 <cpressey> and always good to be reminded of the fact that you aren't ever safe starting a msg with a non-alphanumeric character when bots is around
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14:43:08 <oren> hmm, that function bind is only necessary becuase you can't just use a global variable that f and g bpth modify
14:44:12 <oren> (like, for example, an output stream)
14:44:30 <cpressey> uhhh yes well, functional programming, you see, without side-effects, you see, referentially transparent and all that, you see
14:45:11 <cpressey> i know some people like the idea of putting monads in impure languages like Lisp and Python, but i personally do not see the point of that
14:46:35 <oren> I see. this bind thing is the way to sort of have the benefits of a global variable (a piece of data that follows "alongside" the processing) without the issue of statefulness
14:46:39 <mroman> cpressey: Mind you that an arrow is also an everyday object in medival times.
14:47:13 <mroman> Ideally you math guys would have a structure called "Bow" as well
14:47:35 <oren> that would be the sine function
14:48:06 <cpressey> don't know if there's a bow, but there are definitely sheafs
14:48:48 <oren> err, no, the chord function*** comes from a function named after a bowstring
14:49:09 <oren> the sine function is half of it
14:50:36 <oren> It is really stupid that they have a picture of a surfer on my grade 11 math text, but didn't use these metaphors for trigonometry
14:51:21 <oren> a picture of a surfer belongs on Fluid Dynamics 101, not trigonometry
14:52:16 <cpressey> which makes students like trig more, because it is cool
14:52:32 <cpressey> (i assume this is the logic, anyway)
14:53:02 <oren> Yeah, I guess an Indian chariot-archer would be too violent or some crap
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15:24:57 <cpressey> I would have called them BOBULANCES
15:25:35 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
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15:26:18 <cpressey> i guess that leaves $ and % and # and + and = free
15:27:00 <cpressey> although, dare I point out that EgoBot and blsqbot are up in each other's faces there
15:27:35 <Melvar> Way back when I started idris-bot it used ‣ I think, because that was highly unlikely to get in the way.
15:29:16 <int-e> / would be another good prefix.
15:30:40 <cpressey> very tempting to try to discover what the idris language is like just by getting in an extended conversation with idris-bot
15:31:13 <Melvar> That could get very frustrating very fast.
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15:33:51 <zzo38> Another way to learn it is to read the documentation and to look at other programs written using it.
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15:37:29 <Melvar> Of the latter, there aren’t many yet, and a number of those that exist have probably bitrotted.
15:38:43 <cpressey> do the authors of idris consider it to be an esolang?
15:39:09 <cpressey> is it so hard for me to /join #idris if i want to talk to a bot that talks idris?
15:39:14 <cpressey> sometimes i just don't understand IRC.
15:42:21 <Melvar> I believe Sgeo is the one who invited it, and by extension me, since I had to come keep an eye on the unreliable little thing.
15:43:41 <Melvar> And then I stayed because there are occasionally quite interesting things discussed here. ∑:3
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15:48:18 <cpressey> Anyone implemented deadfish in it yet?
15:48:59 <Melvar> No, but WhiteSpace IIRC, and IIRC the originator of Idris is the inventor of WhiteSpace.
15:53:52 <zzo38> We can see how many things Deadfish is implemented in so far
15:56:43 <zzo38> The shotest one seems to be the one in AWK
15:56:57 <zzo38> I don't know, if you can implement one for Atari VCS?
16:02:22 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Neg Bits32
16:03:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:03:50 <idris-bot> Prelude.Basics.the : (a : Type) -> a -> a
16:07:00 <cpressey> oh dear. can you write Agda-style proofputations in this one, too?
16:07:43 <Melvar> It has full dependent types, yes.
16:08:11 <Melvar> It emphatically does not have Agda’s any-unicode mixfix syntax.
16:09:48 <cpressey> dare i ask what a proof that + is associative might look like
16:10:28 <cpressey> i guess probably not too different from how it looks in agda
16:10:37 <Melvar> > :printdef plusAssociative
16:10:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
16:10:43 <Melvar> ( :printdef plusAssociative
16:10:43 <idris-bot> plusAssociative : (left : Nat) -> (centre : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> left + (centre + right) = left + centre + right
16:10:43 <idris-bot> plusAssociative 0 centre right = Refl
16:10:43 <idris-bot> plusAssociative (S left) centre right = let inductiveHypothesis = plusAssociative left centre right in plusAssociativeStepCase left
16:11:18 <cpressey> yeah, more or less how i've seen it look in agda
16:11:53 <cpressey> if only because inductiveHypothesis and plusAssociativeStepCase are spelled out
16:15:22 <Melvar> https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/blob/master/libs/prelude/Prelude/Nat.idr#L382-L387 That stuff should probably get cleaned up, since we don’t need to use proof mode for intelligent rewriting anymore.
16:15:35 <cpressey> ( :printdef plusAssociativeStepCase
16:15:35 <idris-bot> plusAssociativeStepCase : (left : Nat) ->
16:15:35 <idris-bot> (centre : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> (left + (centre + right) = left + centre + right) -> S (plus left (plus centre right)) = S (plus (plus left centre) right)
16:15:35 <idris-bot> plusAssociativeStepCase = \left => \centre => \right => \inductiveHypothesis => let {rewrite_rule109} = inductiveHypothesis in replace rewrite_rule Refl
16:16:15 <cpressey> it's working backwards from smth
16:16:16 <Melvar> cpressey: That’s vaguely inaccurate since it’s generated from a short tactic script.
16:16:57 <Melvar> The {rewrite_rule109} is how gensyms come out.
16:17:03 <cpressey> me, whenever i write a program, i make sure to name all my functions "function_001", "function_002", etc
16:17:55 <cpressey> so, previously, i lied. i wouldn't have called monads bobulances. i would've called them abstraction_0764's.
16:18:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
16:18:03 <idris-bot> Language.Reflection.MN : Int -> String -> TTName
16:18:21 <Melvar> ( MN 109 "rewrite_rule"
16:18:41 <Melvar> That’s probably the representation of that variable.
16:18:49 <ais523> cpressey: I was reading "A Rainy Sunday Afternoon", I thought the concept was very amusing, but was also disappointed that it wasn't written by hand
16:19:14 <cpressey> ais523: I'm glad you found it amusing.
16:19:26 <cpressey> Asking for something like that to be hand-written is maybe asking a little much
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16:20:03 <cpressey> Oh wait, that's the... card game one. OK, yeah. I can see your disappointment more clearly
16:20:07 <ais523> and yet, people genuinely do play such games
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16:20:48 <cpressey> (Originally I thought you meant "Hope and Remembrance". When you get to be my age, you can't keep your own generated novels straight)
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16:21:15 <ais523> I don't think I've ever generated a novel
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16:21:49 <cpressey> ais523: you are very welcome to spend November trying. it's fun. https://github.com/dariusk/NaNoGenMo-2014/
16:22:25 <ais523> but November is the /dev/null/nethack tournament
16:23:06 <cpressey> November is rather overloaded with activities, I agree
16:23:49 <cpressey> you are of course welcome to try, any time of year
16:24:07 <cpressey> as with writing one by hand etc
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16:26:29 <cpressey> ais523: "A Rainy Sunday Afternoon" was inspired by a mention of Arnold Rimmer's _Risk_ Logbook, which was mentioned in response to a novel about the Towers of Hanoi
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16:41:36 <cpressey> i should probably curate those a bit better, actually put them on my site instead of gist, and link to the nanogeno issues that they came from
16:41:42 <Melvar> ( the (() -> ()) $ %runTactics (do { intro (Just (MN 109 "rewrite_rule")); fill (Var (MN 109 "rewrite_rule")); solve})
16:41:42 <idris-bot> When elaborating argument x to function Prelude.Basics.the:
16:41:42 <idris-bot> No such variable Language.Reflection.Tactical.Tactical
16:42:13 <cpressey> ais523: i'm also nominally working on a "real" story generator, but it's going very slowly
16:42:23 <cpressey> partly an excuse to read tvtropes a lot :)
16:42:41 <ais523> is the idea that you feed the whole of tvtropes to a computer
16:42:50 <ais523> and end up with a coherent, if very clichéd, story?
16:46:17 <zzo38> I prefer All The Tropes rather than TV Tropes, but, you can try to see what it is will be
16:47:13 <cpressey> I hadn't heard of that one before. I'll look at it.
16:47:32 <zzo38> Well, I have a account on All The Tropes; I don't have any on TV Tropes
16:47:53 <cpressey> "feed" isn't quite the right word because they need a lot of "premasticating" before you can get them into an algorithm, but, yes, that's where they eventually end up (and I might have object classes with the same names as TVTropes pages)
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16:50:04 <zzo38> My FOAF includes a link to my All The Tropes user page
16:50:46 <FireFly> ais523, cpressey: where do I find "a rainy sunday afternoon"? Google isn't helpful in this case
16:51:05 <ais523> https://gist.github.com/cpressey/1b9f6d8c66cc1f736aba
16:51:32 <ais523> anyway, here's a problem I'm currently having in Real Life: my bank won't let me move money around between my accounts because I don't have ID
16:51:33 <cpressey> FireFly: what ais523 said. also, http://catseye.tc/node/Text
16:52:04 <ais523> all they accept is a passport (which I don't have), driving license (which I don't have), or one very specific tax form (which I think is the PAYE Coding Notice)
16:52:39 <ais523> but the government's taxation department say that normally they'll just send you a P60 form instead, and the bank doesn't accept P60s
16:52:41 <cpressey> even though you are unquestionably the holder of both accounts
16:53:08 <ais523> the bank seems to be under the assumption that the coding notice gets sent to everone
16:53:30 <FireFly> Although I have to admit I skipped over parts of it
16:53:59 <cpressey> FireFly: a not uncommon occurrence with computer-generated 50k-word novels
16:54:08 <ais523> (that said, I seem to be missing last year's P60 too, possibly because it's only sent if you happen to be employed on 5 April specifically; you get a P45 instead otherwise)
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16:54:59 <cpressey> ais523: are you able to write yourself a cheque from one account, and deposit it (no wait, what do they say here... pay it in?) into the other account?
16:55:21 <ais523> cheques exist here, but they aren't widely used
16:55:47 <ais523> in particular, I haven't used them often enough to be given a chequebook, meaning that if I needed to give someone a cheque, I'd need to go to the bank and ask them to write it for me
16:55:52 <ais523> which runs into the same problem as before
16:56:31 <cpressey> bah. actually, i'm slightly amazed that you've managed to obtain employment without a passport
16:56:38 <ais523> (also, the tax year ends in 9 days, meaning any solution to this problem would need to be by then or it'll count towards the wrong year's tax allowance)
16:56:46 <ais523> they said an expired passport was sufficient to prove I was British
16:57:00 <ais523> and I did have one of those
16:57:13 <ais523> (haven't any more, I decided to exchange it for a new passport to avoid such problems in the future, but that takes over 3 weeks)
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16:58:15 <FireFly> Hm, you don't have any kind of identity card over there?
16:58:44 <FireFly> Something the size of a driver's license without granting a driver's license
16:58:50 <ais523> opt-in identity cards exist, but most aren't considered sufficiently official
16:58:58 <zzo38> In my area there is "BCID", which is like a driving license, except that it isn't a driving license.
16:59:10 <ais523> a common workaround is to apply for a "I'm planning to learn to drive" provisional license, and then not learn to drive
16:59:26 <FireFly> We have national identity cards, and the driving license works as a substitute for it
16:59:55 <Koen_> works the same here
17:00:11 <ais523> anyway, the advice is to carry ID if you're not a citizen of the country you're in (Brit abroad, or foreigner in Britain), but for a Brit in Britain, you don't need ID most of the time
17:00:11 <Koen_> except the driving license isn't official enough for everything
17:00:20 <Koen_> you can vote with a driving license, but you can't withdraw money
17:00:23 <cpressey> I've lived in far too many places
17:00:47 <cpressey> I've had a BC driver's license, an Illinois driver's license, but not a UK driver's license.
17:01:18 <cpressey> And now that information is permanently on the public Internet, but I don't suppose it matters.
17:01:32 <ais523> ah right, you're in the UK right now
17:01:36 <ais523> according to CTCP TIME
17:01:40 <ais523> or somewhere else in UTC+0
17:01:50 <zzo38> You can see my FOAF file on http://zzo38computer.org/my_foaf.ttl
17:02:00 <ais523> I think the UK allows foreign driver's licenses under some circumstances
17:02:08 <zzo38> I might add more later on
17:02:09 <cpressey> sadly, yes, right now I am barely a stone's throw from Trafalgar Square
17:02:25 <ais523> I've decided that there's not much point in trying to hide what country or even city you're in
17:02:31 <ais523> your IP is shown too many places
17:02:37 * Koen_ 's crappy client doesn't do ctcps
17:03:31 <zzo38> Koen_: It can respond to VERSION and TIME requests from me though
17:03:36 <ais523> Koen_: I received one from you
17:03:39 <ais523> maybe it just didn't show the response?
17:04:05 <Koen_> I didn't receive the notification from zzo38 either
17:04:06 <zzo38> If you can enter control characters then you should be able to use it.
17:04:30 <ais523> zzo38: hardly anyone sends ctcps by manually typing the control-A
17:04:42 <ais523> I've done it in the past, but it's much more common to use a specific CTCP feature of a client
17:04:50 <zzo38> ais523: Well, I do, because that's the only way my client has to send.
17:04:58 <zzo38> For replying it can do it automatically though.
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17:05:50 <FireFly> PHP? Interesting choice of language for implementing an IRC client
17:06:04 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Guest67562.
17:06:40 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, but I couldn't figure out how to do internet connection properly with C
17:08:11 -!- Guest67562 has changed nick to shikhout.
17:08:19 <zzo38> I also haven't implemented split-screen or anything like that so far
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17:08:59 <Koen_> last year I was asked to do an instant messaging service in C using signals
17:09:27 <cpressey> < ais523> zzo38: hardly anyone sends ctcps by manually typing the control-A
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17:09:44 <cpressey> yes but if there's a channel where you're going to find people wanting to... you could do worse than #esoteric
17:09:57 <ais523> cpressey: right, and I know from the past that zzo38 /does/ send the control-As manually
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17:10:06 <ais523> I just thought I'd clarify how most clients work
17:10:12 <Koen_> depending on the OS, the signals lost ranged from 1% to 90% so everything had to be very redundant but also stutter-proof
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17:10:55 <zzo38> I have seen other IRC clients but I don't like it much therefore I implemented my own one.
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17:11:54 <zzo38> With syntax highlighting and other stuff
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17:12:04 <zzo38> And macros indicated by function keys
17:12:10 <zzo38> And password masking
17:12:45 <Koen_> syntax highlighting? __english__ syntax?
17:13:23 <zzo38> If your input starts with "PASS " then everything typed after that on the same line will display as asterisks, and furthermore it won't save that line into the history of inputs.
17:13:53 <zzo38> Why would it highlight English syntax?
17:14:35 <cpressey> zzo38: what language did you write it in?
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17:15:37 <zzo38> cpressey: What language did I write what in?
17:15:53 <cpressey> zzo38: what language did you write your IRC client in?
17:16:09 <zzo38> I wrote it in PHP, because I could not figure out how to do it with C.
17:16:31 <cpressey> that was my 3rd guess (after FORTH and C)
17:17:05 <cpressey> Sadly, if I were to write one, I would probably do it in Python
17:17:55 <cpressey> ...maybe Javascript except I know I wouldn't be able to bring myself to use node.js for something that signficant
17:18:30 <FireFly> I've been meaning to write a somewhat-serious client for myself
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17:19:18 <zzo38> Do you also not like the other IRC clients too?
17:19:26 <cpressey> the awful bit about an IRC client would be the async terminal (or GUI) I/O versus the network I/O, wouldn't it
17:19:34 <cpressey> maybe node.js wouldn't be *that* bad actually
17:19:45 <FireFly> I think node.js wouldn't be too bad
17:20:23 <cpressey> I don't mind weechat, I don't mind irssi, but I hate their build systems
17:20:24 <zzo38> cpressey: It is what I thought too, but I was able to figure out how to do that in PHP
17:20:32 <cpressey> ok, "hate" is too strong a work
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17:21:10 <FireFly> weechat works decently, but I don't like how the plugin system seems to be very fragile (at least the little I've looked at it)
17:21:14 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you know I am working on a Z-machine implementation for Famicom?
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17:22:18 <cpressey> zzo38: No, I didn't know that. Cool.
17:22:41 <cpressey> I think I had a 2nd-hand Famicom once... without a proper power supply... I don't remember if I ever got it working.
17:23:10 <zzo38> I already wrote ZORKMID in C, which is a Z-machine debugger, therefore I can see what instructions Zork I executes before the first READ, as well as seeing various other things
17:23:42 <zzo38> In case you are interested, here is that list of instructions: http://sprunge.us/KMhj
17:23:59 <zzo38> The * is the debugger prompt and P displays this list; also O will clear the list
17:24:20 <zzo38> And then there are other commands too, such as u for unassemble, d for dump, q for quit, r for restart, etc
17:25:37 <zzo38> I am working on a compiler to target Z-machine too actually, which is actually mainly an assembler but with extensions and macros and more optimizations.
17:26:00 <zzo38> Actually, oerjan helped me to optimize the text packing.
17:26:59 <cpressey> i could never wrap my head around the Z-machine. i mean, i'm sure it's possible, but all those clever little packed things. brrrr
17:27:38 <cpressey> I fixed a who-knows-how-old-it-was bug in Zplet, though
17:28:29 <cpressey> it had to do with font size versus size of the applet
17:28:57 <cpressey> https://github.com/XelaRellum/ZPlet/pull/3 if you *really* care
17:30:02 <ais523> huh, the tax office's phone lines are still open
17:30:13 <ais523> I'm going home to get some documents, then phone them
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17:30:56 <zzo38> Have you seen my All The Tropes user page?
17:31:19 <zzo38> You can also look at my FOAF which can be downloaded from: http://zzo38computer.org/my_foaf.ttl
17:31:53 <cpressey> first FOAF I've ever seen with gopher:// in it
17:32:42 <zzo38> It has telnet:// in it too; have you seen other FOAFs with telnet:// in it? Probably for ones that mention MUDs it might be in there I suppose
17:32:55 <cpressey> to be fair i have not seen many FOAFs at all
17:34:08 <zzo38> I also wrote a SQLite extension that can parse this and other RDF Turtle files. It turns out to be smaller than Serd, and as far as I know the only one that has a API that is accessed from SQL.
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17:34:23 <zzo38> FireFly: Well, now you know!
17:35:46 <zzo38> Although some people write FOAFs in XML instead
17:35:57 <zzo38> I used Turtle to write mine though.
17:37:43 <quintopia> apparently wordpress supports foaf
17:38:16 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think I have read that too
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17:56:04 <ais523> so the tax department's phone line says the same thing as their website
17:56:18 <ais523> which is that there's no need to worry or do anything if they've sent you a tax code change
17:56:42 <ais523> the problem is, my tax code /hasn't/ changed and I need a tax code change form anyway because my bank are making silly requests
17:56:46 <ais523> I guess I just complain to the bank
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18:30:58 <Koen_> yes, complaining to the bank always work *ahem*
18:31:38 <Koen_> plus, they always call back when you reach their answering machine even though you called during their office hours
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18:47:02 <zzo38> I read about aspect-oriented programming, now I think perhaps RULECARD should be designed with something similar to aspect-oriented programming as one of its features.
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18:51:57 <HackEgo> [U+1F006 MAHJONG TILE WHITE DRAGON] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1F005 MAHJONG TILE GREEN DRAGON] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1F004 MAHJONG TILE RED DRAGON]
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19:00:04 <zzo38> But in Magic: the Gathering, there is triggers on stack, "instead of" abilities, effects that temporarily or permanently change other effects and objects, etc
19:00:23 <ais523> the white dragon tile is hilarious
19:00:30 <ais523> because the tiles themselves are also white
19:00:40 <ais523> so the joke is, they leave the tile blank because it's a white dragon on a white background
19:01:11 <zzo38> Also called "haku", yes it is a blank tile, although some sets have a border
19:01:48 <zzo38> The glass haku tiles in a Washizu set will be the same on both sides even.
19:03:42 <coppro> ais523: In Chinese sets, usually there's a frame to represent the dragon
19:03:58 <coppro> in Japenese sets, though, they actually leave them blank
19:04:10 <ais523> right, I know it's not always blank
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19:04:49 <coppro> there are sets of black tiles as well, but these pose a problem as they are often not two-toned, so if they don't put some sort of marker (usually a dot in Japanese sets) to indicate the white dragon, it is indistinguishable face up and face down
19:05:17 <coppro> which means you sometimes have to stand it on its end to distinguish it, and on top of that, in a heavily played set, it will be worn differently since it sees equal wear on both sides
19:07:22 <zzo38> Yes, but a proper set should have the back a different color than the front (the back can be brown or green for non-magnetic tiles, or it is blue or pink for magnetic tiles, I think)
19:08:33 <coppro> does anyone have terminal emulator suggestions?
19:08:37 <coppro> configuring urxvt is shit
19:08:42 <coppro> konsole doesn't handle astral characters correctly
19:08:47 <zzo38> Still the glass haku tiles in Washizu sets are going to be the same on both sides, but in that case it doesn't matter because you are supposed to be allowed to look at opponent's glass tiles.
19:09:52 <zzo38> coppro: Can't you use xterm?
19:11:06 <coppro> zzo38: perhaps? does it support full unicode correctly and is it a pain in the ass to configure?
19:14:30 <zzo38> When working on Linux I generally use Linux VC with Unicode turned off
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19:20:11 <oerjan> now with the seeping bass again :(
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19:22:52 <int-e> Not a very treble experience.
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19:24:28 <oerjan> i think a pun needs the other word to exist, int-e
19:25:13 <int-e> I guess the editing distance is a bit too big.
19:26:01 <oerjan> the web irc font confuses my swatting
19:27:31 <shachaf> oerjan: when you're serious you should try a sharper swatter like "-----♯♯♯" hth
19:27:58 <oerjan> there is only One True Swatter
19:33:57 <Melvar> < coppro> konsole doesn't handle astral characters correctly – Really? What does it do with them?
19:35:27 <ais523> coppro: I use gnome-terminal as my terminal but I wouldn't really recommend it
19:38:08 <oerjan> girl genius is back to its usual unschedule
19:39:40 <oerjan> int-e: i think it's a bit more than 1 hour off
19:41:08 <oerjan> i distinctly recall being able to mostly expect an update to be ready around 6-7 AM my time in previous years
19:41:21 <oerjan> and this occasionally still happens.
19:44:13 <oerjan> sounds like lewie has found a life philosophy, i wonder if that's what he's been doing since he came back to black mountain
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19:53:03 <oerjan> it seems that breaking out a tab into its own window gets IE confused about the rest of them...
19:53:21 <ais523> Firefox seems to have a bug where the tabs are in the wrong order
19:53:34 <ais523> as in, the order they're arranged at the top of the screen is different from the order ctrl-pgdn cycles through htem
19:53:40 <ais523> and trying to rearrange them causes some of them to overlap
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20:56:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Yoob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42242&oldid=31859 * 5.29.33.254 * (+38)
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21:01:33 <Sgeo_> Would it be ethical for me to use Mechanical Turk for something?
21:02:11 <ais523> depends on what that thing is, surely
21:02:27 <ais523> unless you think all uses of mechanical turk are unethical due to not paying the users enough
21:02:38 <ais523> one problem is, that the unethical uses are likely to be willing to pay more per person than the ethical ones
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21:02:42 <ais523> so they may price the ethical ones out of the market
21:03:35 <ais523> incidentally, it turns out that one of the main reasons that Google and Yahoo! and friends are trying push people to use two-factor auth for their accounts (tying them to cellphones) is to prevent spam automated signups, because most spambots don't have cellphones
21:03:57 <ais523> (and allegedly, the price of a Google account on the black market is approximately the same as that of the cheapest available SIM cards)
21:04:02 <Sgeo_> Thing I had in mind is just a thing for personal use (finding YouTube videos to match with my collection of MIDIs), but I'm looking at MTurk and it seems to pay out pennies, which seems a bit cheap
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21:27:47 <Sgeo_> What if someone doesn't find one of the songs, not paying is probably unethical
21:33:55 <g2watson> how much is mechanical turk per hour anyway
21:39:09 <MDude> MTurk pays people based on how much you offer.
21:39:18 <MDude> With some service transaction, I imagine.
21:39:55 <MDude> MTurk isn't per-hour, it's piecerate.
21:40:21 <MDude> Unless you somehow set a task to require spending a set amount of time doing something.
21:40:27 <MDude> Rather than for the result.
21:40:58 <MDude> Forget why I decided against working for it.
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21:44:47 <orin> ah. if the price is per task, then it is similar to working on commission
21:46:55 <Sgeo_> Is there a way to safely/ethically set up tasks that may fail?
21:47:19 <Sgeo_> If I don't pay for failure, that's possibly unethical, if I do pay for failure, someone could lie and say they failed
21:47:41 <ais523> Sgeo_: the amount of worry setting this up will cause you
21:47:46 <ais523> is larger than the benefit you'd get if it worked
21:47:57 <MDude> You examine their work and determine yourself if it's a failure.
21:47:58 <zzo38> I think if they failed you shouldn't have to pay if you do not want to
21:48:17 <MDude> Depending on the task it might be possible to determine if they tried.
21:48:43 <MDude> Apparently the common practice is to set the price super low and to generally accept anything.
21:48:47 <Sgeo_> Since here the work is 'finding the name of a song', I don't really have a way to check honestly (except seaching myself) if it's true that they tried and couldn't ind it
21:48:59 <MDude> From what I heard soon after it came out, anyway.
21:49:20 <MDude> If they get you the name, you could easily just put that in a search engine.
21:49:30 <zzo38> If you have enough money maybe you can try by making up fake tasks that you do not need in order to see who is more honestly and so on
21:49:33 <ais523> Sgeo_: I believe there are cellphone "apps" that claim to be able to determine the name of a song from listening to it
21:49:35 <Sgeo_> MDude: which would be a success
21:49:45 <ais523> that might work better
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21:50:00 <Sgeo_> ais523: including MIDIs? I guess I should try it
21:50:17 <ais523> but that might be the best route for you to go down
21:50:23 <zzo38> Extra checking like that ought to cost more of course
21:51:25 <zzo38> About MIDIs, I can tell you something I read once (I think it was in Reader's Digest). To index the music, they mark each note as up, down, or same, and use the string of the first few notes represented in this way, in order to find it. Something similar could be done with MIDI, I suppose.
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22:01:20 <zzo38> A version of the Magic: the Gathering card "Fruit of the First Tree" with exploit (and possibly also cycling) would be called what?
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22:17:02 <ais523> zzo38: you can't figure out a card name by which mechanics it uses
22:17:12 <zzo38> I know, so I just made one up
22:17:17 <ais523> especially because exploit and cycling haven't been in the same set yet, so we don't know what setting it would be in
22:17:49 <zzo38> I just called it "Fruit of the Third Tree" for now; its mana cost is {1} more and it has exploit and cycling {2}
22:19:34 <zzo38> I don't know the setting either of course
22:20:11 <zzo38> I also made up another card that has a trigger "when any creature is exploited", without caring who or what exploits it.
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22:27:15 <zzo38> What setting do you think that would be in?
22:28:34 <FireFly> What do exploit and cycling do+
22:30:20 <ais523> FireFly: exploit is "when CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature", the cards with that ability normally give you some reason why you'd /want/ to
22:30:21 <zzo38> Exploit means when this comes into play, you may sacrifice a creature (the permanent with that ability is then considered to have exploited the sacrificed creature). Cycling means you can pay the cost and then discard it from your hand in order to draw a card.
22:30:48 <ais523> and cycling is "pay «cost», discard CARDNAME from your hand: draw a card" («cost» is traditionally {2} but weirder costs have been seen more recently)
22:33:57 <FireFly> Cycling seems like an interesting mechanic
22:34:07 <zzo38> The newest set invented exploit and megamorph keywords.
22:34:16 <ais523> it's one of the ones they bring out every now and then because they need a card flow mechanic
22:34:27 <zzo38> Both only on creatures, though.
22:34:54 <ais523> right, both mechanics could go on other things
22:35:15 <ais523> although the design intent behind exploit is that you can sacrifice the creature it's on
22:35:19 <ais523> so it's unlikely to go on a noncreature
22:35:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, if it is a creature you can do that, but that doesn't mean it has to be a creature; it just means that if it isn't, then you can't do that unless something else makes it to be a creature.
22:36:16 <ais523> my point is that if they design a mechanic for a specific purpose
22:36:23 <ais523> it's not normally used in contexts where that purpose doesn't work
22:36:46 <zzo38> But my point is that if they design a mechanic for a specific purpose, then you can try to use it for other purposes too.
22:39:23 <zzo38> I also made up card having ninjutsu even though it is not a creature, as well as creature that has both ninjutsu and defender. In the former case, it can come into play tapped but can't attack (unless it is an instant or sorcery in which case it remains in your hand); in the latter case it only attacks once.
22:43:11 <zzo38> Yes, you can also create a table of contents window in PDF. Still I think PDF isn't very good
22:49:54 <ais523> there's a card with defender and haste in future sight
22:50:22 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I have seen that
22:54:40 <zzo38> Add another command that executes shell command like that but sets the locale to C before executing your command.
22:55:02 <FireFly> `` ln -s canary wisdom/canary; ls -l wisdom/canary
22:55:06 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Mar 30 22:56 wisdom/canary -> canary
22:55:22 <FireFly> `` rm wisdom/canary; ln -s ../canary wisdom/canary; ls -l wisdom/canary
22:55:27 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Mar 30 22:57 wisdom/canary -> ../canary
22:57:33 <shachaf> it isn't particularly informative or entertaining
22:57:47 <shachaf> i've been guilty of introducing noise into wisdom/ too, of course
22:58:11 <FireFly> I though actually making use of the canary file was a bit amusing, but alas
22:58:36 <FireFly> I could well be the one being wrong
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23:01:03 <zzo38> OK I fixed HackEgo now it can use C locale instead of the stupid one
23:01:19 <zzo38> If you put ``` at the front of the command rather than ``
23:02:40 <orin> english New Zealand?
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23:04:03 <boily> New Zealand English indeed.
23:04:11 <boily> (en_CA's the best, tho :D)
23:04:39 <zzo38> I am also Canadian, but I think the best setting should be LANG=C
23:05:44 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
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23:07:18 <zzo38> No I want LANG=C any other setting is no good. It can also be useful to set different settings for telephone, money, etc but even then it should be part of the database probably, rather than using the wrong setting for the database and cause a mess.
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23:08:50 <zzo38> My opinion is also to make CLI message always print in English (or in an abbreviated form), but GUI and documentation can use any languages, possibly multiple in case people of different language want to read this documentation too.
23:09:22 <zzo38> (Not only always in English, but also they should always be in ASCII too, as much as possible.)
23:09:36 <shachaf> What if I don't like English?
23:10:05 <HackEgo> aa_DJ \ aa_DJ.utf8 \ aa_ER \ aa_ER@saaho \ aa_ET \ af_ZA \ af_ZA.utf8 \ am_ET \ an_ES \ an_ES.utf8 \ ar_AE \ ar_AE.utf8 \ ar_BH \ ar_BH.utf8 \ ar_DZ \ ar_DZ.utf8 \ ar_EG \ ar_EG.utf8 \ ar_IN \ ar_IQ \ ar_IQ.utf8 \ ar_JO \ ar_JO.utf8 \ ar_KW \ ar_KW.utf8 \ ar_LB \ ar_LB.utf8 \ ar_LY \ ar_LY.utf8 \ ar_MA \ ar_MA.utf8 \ ar_OM \ ar_OM.utf8 \ ar_QA \ ar
23:10:42 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you can access the documentation in the language that you do like instead.
23:11:11 <int-e> `` LC_ALL=ar_LB.utf8 echo > /dev/full
23:11:12 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
23:12:33 <int-e> `` LC_ALL=ru_RU.utf8 /bin/echo > /dev/full # ok, it works in principle...
23:12:34 <HackEgo> /bin/echo: ошибка записи: На устройстве кончилось место
23:39:31 <FireFly> `` LC_ALL=ja_JP.utf8 echo >/dev/full
23:39:46 <HackEgo> bash: 0 行: echo: 書き込みエラー: デバイスに空き領域がありません
23:40:08 <shachaf> `` LC_ALL=he_IL.utf8 echo > /dev/full
23:40:09 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
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00:11:55 <zzo38> Probably, although RDF files are often plain text so you can read them anyways
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00:23:31 <FireFly> I learned that relatively recently. It seems suspiciously TeX-like--do you know if there is any relation between the two?
00:23:45 <FireFly> Wait, sorry, was thinking of RTF
00:33:50 <olsner> iirc RDF is suspiciously HTML-like
00:34:35 <olsner> e.g. XML but with bendy rules
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01:07:54 <coppro> Melvar: Konsole, like all of KDE, uses UCS2
01:08:29 <coppro> an astral character may display correctly, but it counts as two for various things
01:16:34 <pikhq> UCS2 of all things...
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01:56:07 <FireFly> I found that out when I wanted to try to fix KCharSelect not supporting codepoints outside the BMP
01:56:40 <FireFly> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qchar.html I don't think it'll change anytime soon :\
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02:45:17 <zzo38> olsner: No, RDF isn't specifically XML; XML is one format to store RDF data, but another is Turtle.
02:45:36 <zzo38> My own FOAF file also stores RDF data, but it is Turtle rather than XML.
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04:10:03 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, I prefer to use Turtle, but some prefer XML. For a simple (but not very good for writing by hand and reading manually either) format, there is N-Triples. Any N-Triples document is a valid Turtle document though; N-Triples is a subset of Turtle.
04:11:16 <zzo38> (Therefore any Turtle parser also parses N-Triples. The SQLite extension I wrote can convert Turtle into N-Triples.)
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07:49:08 <mroman> I'll invent a religion that is offended by taxes
07:49:16 <mroman> then I move to indiana, stop paying my taxes
07:49:36 <Taneb> I don't think that law is enforced if your religion is not christianity
07:49:51 <Jafet> You may need to pay the politicians instead.
07:50:26 <Jafet> Apparently \sum_{k=0}^n k \binom{n}{k} = n 2^{n-1}.
07:50:42 <mroman> but I could sell my religion as a sub-group of christianity
07:50:52 <mroman> there are lots of christian churches with slightly different beleives out there.
07:51:09 <Jafet> Or you could just join that religion
07:51:37 <mroman> Of my own christian church.
07:51:41 <Taneb> The word you want is beliefs
07:51:44 <Taneb> Believes is a verb
07:51:50 <mroman> I like the fancy dresses I could wear then.
07:52:35 <mroman> although not all christian churches have popes.
07:52:39 <mroman> I guess it's just the catholics?
07:53:15 <Jafet> Oh, the proof of that identity is obvious
07:53:17 <mroman> It's funny that protestants and catholics more or less have the same beliefs but protestants kinda see the pope as a phony.
07:54:04 <mroman> fungot: What are your beliefs?
07:54:04 <fungot> mroman: who is yome? arcus? gnomon? are you using ubuntu 5.10?)
07:54:11 <fungot> mroman: there's two of them touch when using framebuffer
07:54:20 <fungot> mroman: i used the c subset for the most part, its going to be
07:55:31 <mroman> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/parents-could-be-reported-to-police-if-children-play-violent-video-games-like-call-of-duty-and-grand-theft-auto-10141697.html
07:55:48 <mroman> Everybody knows that you have to start playing these games at 14 years old to become a pro by 18
07:56:04 <mroman> then slowly decay until you completely suck at age 24 because you're eyes aren't fast enough anymore.
07:56:13 <FireFly> fungot: A C subset? Sounds pretty limited
07:56:13 <fungot> FireFly: i would simply use midi
07:56:27 <FireFly> fungot: so you're into music-based esolangs
07:56:27 <fungot> FireFly: what is /dev/ random, but there's no message, window creation just silently errors out :)
07:56:37 <mroman> Is C without pointers still turing complete?
07:59:20 <coppro> can you still use arrays?
07:59:39 <coppro> if not... yeah, you have recursion
07:59:44 <Jafet> Since C isn't turing complete to begin with...
07:59:57 <b_jonas> coppro: recursion isn't enough
08:00:10 <coppro> b_jonas: you have recursion and branching
08:00:11 <b_jonas> but in any case, you can use files and seeks
08:00:23 <b_jonas> coppro: even still, that just makes a stack automaton
08:01:09 <mroman> coppro: aren't arrays just pointers?
08:01:25 <mroman> a[b] is defined as *(a+b) or something
08:02:04 <b_jonas> no wait, without pointers you can't open a file
08:02:49 <mroman> but let's forbid array neveretheless for fun
08:03:16 <mroman> & * and [] are disallowed.
08:03:37 <coppro> Jafet: it's useful to talk about C being "turing-complete" in a slightly less strict sense
08:04:19 <coppro> while C, by definition, has finite memory, we can easily pretend it has unbounded memory, or you could make logical or actual shims to get around this
08:04:37 <coppro> (e.g. "compile this code with N bit pointers, if it runs out of memory, compile with 2N bit pointers, etc."
08:05:11 <coppro> mroman: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/aryptr2.html
08:06:49 <ais523> coppro: there is file access in the C standard
08:07:03 <ais523> and nothing in the standard restricts an impl from providing infinitely large files
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08:08:56 <mroman> coppro: That's why I added "let's forbid array nevertheless" :)
08:11:52 <coppro> ais523: true, but that's not reliable either
08:12:11 <coppro> but I suppose that it does let you get around the inherent boundedness
08:12:18 <coppro> it's more interesting to do as I described though :
08:12:42 <ais523> also there's the weird case of forming a PDA using register variables and recursion
08:12:51 <ais523> I don't believe anything in C prevents that being possible
08:14:02 <coppro> anyway, b_jonas might have it right. I'm having difficulty convincing myself you can do better than a DPDA, since the memory you have access to at any given point is finite
08:15:29 <ais523> well, exploiting UB you have other options
08:15:41 <ais523> like longjmp /into/ a function, which is totally illegal
08:16:03 <ais523> but which does normally work in practice if you're jumping back to the function you just came from with no function calls in between
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08:16:13 <coppro> again, let's not assume that works
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08:22:20 <coppro> callforjudgement: I odn't think so
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08:23:26 <ais523> that gives you enough control to use the stack as a queue
08:23:31 <ais523> and one queue is enough
08:23:56 <ais523> admittedly, the construction I'm thinking of contains a memory leak, but that doesn't matter for TCness
08:24:29 <coppro> it can't be moved arbitrarily anywhere
08:24:39 <FireFly> How is it moved to the top of the stack?
08:24:46 <coppro> oh, I see what you're thinking of
08:24:49 <ais523> FireFly: by longjmping to yourself
08:24:51 <coppro> yes, I think that works
08:27:08 <b_jonas> ais523: you can't longjmp without pointers either
08:27:18 <b_jonas> ais523: longjmp takes a pointer argument
08:27:41 <ais523> b_jonas: it takes a jmp_buf argument
08:28:11 <ais523> admittedly you could make the point of "a jmp_buf must be finitely large, so you can use memcpy to look at the individual bits"
08:28:29 <ais523> however, it could be implemented as offsets into a jump table with finitely many keys, but unboundedly large values
08:38:23 <elliott> is jmp_buf allowed to fail?
08:38:43 <ais523> I don't think setjmp is allowed to fail, but I'm not sure
08:39:14 <ais523> I happen to have a C11 draft open
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09:25:25 <cpressey> http://divisbyzero.com/2014/08/27/tangent-lines-to-the-sine-function-with-rational-slope/ <- I am very suspicious. I don't think this is right.
09:25:44 <cpressey> trivially, m=0 is also rational and also a tangent of the sine curve
09:26:30 <cpressey> less trivially... surely if a and c are irrational and b is rational and a < b < c and there is a continuous curve from a to c, it passes through b?
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09:44:42 <cpressey> "...and a similar proof holds for the sine and cosine functions. Thus," <-- SLOPPY
09:45:27 <cpressey> The "similar proof" seems to be "if α is a nonzero algebraic number then sin(α), cos(α), tan(α) are transcendental"
09:46:16 <cpressey> what if α is nonzero, but non-algebraic, i.e. rational?
09:46:44 <cpressey> am I the only one awake here right now? :)
09:47:08 <Taneb> cpressey, I am looking at it
09:47:13 <cpressey> I NEED SOMETHING TO ENTERTAIN ME WHILE I OPTIMIZE QUERIES THROUGH THE GAUZE OF AN ORM
09:47:23 <Taneb> I think all rationals are algebraic
09:47:49 <cpressey> Taneb: yeah, technically that's true
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09:49:30 <Taneb> Because a/b is a root of bx-a = 0
09:49:53 <cpressey> But then how can you say simple things like "slope = dy/dx = tan(theta)"? if tan(theta) is transcendental, then it's irrational, and cannot be expressed by dy/dx !
09:51:19 <cpressey> I suspect there's some subtlety lurking in "transcendental" vs "irrational"
09:52:01 <Taneb> dy and dx are not integers, or indeed rationals
09:52:14 <Taneb> So dy/dx is not a rational
09:52:21 <mroman> höhö. Real Time Ad Bidding
09:52:52 <cpressey> ok; then you can only say "dy/dx = tan(theta)" if either dy or dx or both is irrational
09:54:04 <cpressey> so weird, because it seems to be the equivalent of saying there is no theta such that tan(theta) = 1/2
09:54:08 <Taneb> I believe dy and dx are both infinitismals
09:54:42 <Taneb> (in the context of derivatives)
09:54:46 <Taneb> Calculus is not my strong suit
09:54:56 <Taneb> However I agree that the conclusion of that blog post seems wrong
09:58:15 <cpressey> Taneb: calculus is *definitely* not my strong suit; this is actually the first thing lately in it that has piqued my interest. thanks for looking at it...
10:00:06 <Melvar> < coppro> an astral character may display correctly, but it counts as two for various things – Well, for what things? I need some kind of testcase to subject candidate recommendations to.
10:02:34 <cpressey> maybe the theta in tan(theta) = 1/2 is BEYOND TRANSCENDENTAL!!!
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10:16:11 <Taneb> cpressey, that theta is certainly transcendental
10:19:10 <Taneb> It's not asking whether there are any lines with rational gradient that are tangent to sin(x)
10:19:32 <Taneb> It's asking whether there are any lines with rational gradient that also go throw the origin that are tangent to sin(x)
10:22:58 <cpressey> yeah, he didn't say y=mx+b, he just said y=mx
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10:25:21 <cpressey> so that kind of reduces it to... what kind of number is arctan(1/2)? because, if tan(theta) is transcendental for theta != 0, ...
10:25:55 <cpressey> which could be reduced to "inverses of transcendental functions, how do they work?"
10:26:45 <cpressey> is the range really restricted to irrational numbers (and we just fudge it for practical purposes?)
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10:29:52 <cpressey> you know, it might actually *be* "beyond transcendental"
10:30:18 <cpressey> an uncomputable real (or at least, inexpressible as a transcendental)
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10:38:05 <oerjan> <shachaf> scow <-- so what's "scow" in hebrew
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10:55:51 <oerjan> <mroman> but I could sell my religion as a sub-group of christianity <-- tricky, i'm afraid that biblical jesus explicitly answered the question of whether to pay taxes.
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10:59:22 <oerjan> actually the english seems to use "tribute"
11:00:03 <oerjan> although it *may* be a bit confusing with us dollars, they have *both* a picture of a president and "in god we trust" on them.
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11:02:02 <cpressey> oerjan: so what kind of number is arctan(1/2) anyway
11:02:16 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘atan’ (imported from Prelude)
11:02:41 <cpressey> because if theta != 0 then tan(theta) is transcendental, and 1/2 is not transcendental
11:02:46 <mroman> I can't give my money back to the guys that are on the bill
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11:03:20 <oerjan> cpressey: erm presumably theta must be rational or algebraic or the like for that to be true.
11:03:38 <cpressey> algebraic, yes. and 1/2 is algebraic
11:04:27 <cpressey> er -- not that 1/2 being algebraic is very relevant.
11:04:36 <cpressey> (i think. easy to get confused)
11:06:49 <cpressey> oerjan: you can see the log for context, but: a "slight variation" on Lindemann–Weierstrass theorem says that if a is algebraic and != 0, sin(a) is transcendental. so... if sin(a) is 1/2, it's not transcendental, so... is a not algebraic?
11:07:26 <cpressey> well, any transcendental function would suffer from this it seems
11:07:45 <cpressey> ok ok i don't care about the values
11:07:51 <oerjan> which is indeed not algebraic
11:08:08 <oerjan> cpressey: but yes, that does imply a is not algebraic.
11:08:08 <cpressey> surely if a and c are irrational and b is rational and a < b < c and there is a continuous curve from a to c, it passes through b?
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11:08:32 <oerjan> yes, that's the intermediate value theorem.
11:08:52 <cpressey> oerjan: then how what why http://divisbyzero.com/2014/08/27/tangent-lines-to-the-sine-function-with-rational-slope/
11:09:31 <cpressey> surely there will be SOME slope that passes through a rational as the slope varies as you "slide" up and down the sine curve
11:10:05 <oerjan> yes. and this is a problem how?
11:10:39 <cpressey> that result seems ultra-trivial now
11:11:01 <oerjan> um that link does not speak about the origin?
11:11:57 <cpressey> just reading comprehension fail on my part -- even after Taneb pointed it out (i was thinking y-axis for some reason)
11:13:07 <cpressey> I still think there's some right weirdness about transcendental functions
11:13:14 <cpressey> but it's much less weird than it seemed earlier
11:13:57 <Taneb> oerjan, US dollars tell us to trust God when He says give to Washington what is Washington's or something
11:15:22 <Taneb> Is Washington even on US currency?
11:17:31 <cpressey> until they replace the $1 bill with a coin, like all the SANE countries have done, i think he is
11:17:54 <cpressey> or is that someone else? don't really rememebr
11:18:10 <Taneb> I haven't been to the US since I was 3
11:18:14 * oerjan was just looking it up
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11:27:47 <cpressey> i get it now; flipside of Lindemann–Weierstrass; if f(a) is rational, and f is a transcendental function, then a must be transcendental
11:28:45 <cpressey> well, or at least for sin/cos/tan; there may be other, weirder functions
11:29:46 <oerjan> <cpressey> I NEED SOMETHING TO ENTERTAIN ME WHILE I OPTIMIZE QUERIES THROUGH THE GAUZE OF AN ORM <-- this gets so much better if you use the norwegian meaning of ORM
11:30:30 <oerjan> or rather, the norse meaning, which sort of includes dragons
11:31:56 <oerjan> cpressey: i'm not sure that "transcendental function" has a very exact meaning
11:32:12 <oerjan> Melvar: that's cognate, yes
11:32:31 <oerjan> also to "worm", naturally.
11:33:20 <Melvar> Yes, but given the inclusion of dragons, “wyrm” seemed more appropriate to ask.
11:34:03 <oerjan> cpressey: if you define it simply as "not algebraic", then it would include fairly trivial counterexamples.
11:34:12 <Melvar> And then there’s the Zamonian Orm, which is … writer’s divine inspiration, I guess?
11:34:28 <oerjan> i think "wyrm" may be just the old plural of "worm"?
11:35:03 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
11:37:16 <int-e> ety has editing distance two from let...
11:37:59 <oerjan> my brain somehow saw "Define what?" and thought "ok, that sounds like a dictionary command"
11:38:26 <int-e> (Yes this auto-correction can be very confusing. But that's a different matter.)
11:39:02 <oerjan> ok "wyrm" isn't plural, just an older form
11:39:45 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worm
11:40:32 <Melvar> An older form for an older sense, to a degree. Neat.
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11:41:27 <cpressey> Wonderful Object-Relational Mapper (with heavy sarcasm on the "wonderful")
11:43:37 <int-e> As in Pandora's box of wonders?
11:45:03 <int-e> . o O ( Though perhaps that analagy is too optimistic; there was hope in *that* box. )
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11:46:12 <Melvar> In German, the more general sort of worms has mostly only survived in compounds like “Lindwurm” and “Tatzelwurm”.
11:47:07 <oerjan> <Taneb> I believe dy and dx are both infinitismals <-- that is if you are giving them separate meanings at all; in elementary calculus definitions dy/dx is not really decomposed into dy and dx, but is more like a notation for a higher-order function
11:48:51 <oerjan> there's also an option of considering dy and dx as differential forms
11:49:12 <oerjan> which means they're still not numbers
11:49:25 <b_jonas> oh, we're at wurms and worms and wyrms?
11:50:27 <oerjan> cpressey: dy/dx is leibnit?z's intuitive notation, which works if you know what you're doing.
11:51:40 <oerjan> (although at least one website got it wrong)
11:56:15 <cpressey> oerjan: and here i thought slope was just "rise over run"
11:56:40 <cpressey> who knows who put that phrase into my head
11:56:49 <cpressey> some math teacher, way back when
11:56:57 <oerjan> that's the average slope
11:57:08 <oerjan> but if you want slope at a point, you must take the limit of that
11:58:59 <oerjan> not necessarily uglier than when you don't take the limit
11:59:45 <oerjan> the limit allows you to toss away many of the error terms
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12:13:49 <cpressey> some will wave their hands, others will attempt to build a workable basis under it
12:15:15 <cpressey> still others will shout "NO!", perhaps
12:15:27 <oerjan> the definitions in introductory calculus don't use infinitesimals.
12:16:26 <cpressey> indeed, you don't need to, but you can, and then they call your system of analysis "non-standard" for some reason
12:16:40 <oerjan> that's just an alternative approach which takes some really heavy stuff to get consistent, and which also happens to be what people hand-waved *before* they learned how to define calculus properly.
12:17:23 <cpressey> fine. i'm a finitist. i only believe in finitesimals. of course, i'm only taking this position in order to intentionally make it ugly
12:19:40 <cpressey> wikipedia does not have a page for Finitesimal
12:22:57 <cpressey> and yet... https://www.wordnik.com/words/finitesimal
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12:42:22 <cpressey> actually, i wonder if i AM a finitist
12:43:02 <cpressey> i'm certainly not an ultrafinitist. that's just silly.
12:43:41 <cpressey> i believe the definition of infinite sets is valid, even though they can never be concretely realized
12:45:11 <cpressey> huh, it's kind of like how aesthetic philosophers can say that a picture of a unicorn has a null denotation, because unicorns don't exist
12:45:19 <cpressey> (as if they know unicorns don't exist)
12:54:06 <cpressey> would an ultrafinitist assert that 2↑↑↑6 - 2↑↑↑6 cannot be shown to be 0, on the grounds that 2↑↑↑6 is just too darn big?
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12:55:13 <oerjan> maybe sufficiently big numbers are susceptible to bit errors
13:01:27 <int-e> . o O ( Please stand by while we evaluate that difference... )
13:03:50 <int-e> Please convince me that 2↑↑6 is a natural number. I already have trouble fitting 6^6^6^6 into my (computer's) brain...
13:04:49 <int-e> Sorry that has nothing to do with it. But indeed 2^2^2^2^2^2 is too large for my computer. :)
13:04:54 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Esenin-Volpin#Mathematical_work
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13:07:09 <int-e> oerjan: I think I anticipated this in my "Please stand by" remark.
13:08:05 <oerjan> anticipation is the sincerest form of imitation
13:09:10 <int-e> From a different perspective, math is about anticipation: I anticipate that 2↑↑↑6 - 2↑↑↑6 is zero.
13:10:15 <oerjan> what is the ratio of anticipation to perspiration
13:11:03 <int-e> I mean I actually anticipate that n-n = 1 for any natural number n.
13:11:18 <cpressey> 2 is a natural number, 6 is a natural number, and and arrowarrowarrow maps pairs of natural numbers to natural numbers
13:12:22 <int-e> (I have no excuse for that. I simply should not think about n/n while typing n-n...)
13:12:29 <cpressey> actually, i don't know what i am, because in some sense i believe 1/0 - 1/0 = 0, too
13:12:55 <myname> https://youtu.be/g10DqPbbUuw that combination of video and music disturbs me
13:13:05 <int-e> cpressey: Right, there's some grounds for doubting that 2^^^6 is a natural number.
13:13:59 <oerjan> i used to be an infinitist, but then i took an arrow to the knee
13:14:00 <cpressey> int-e: i don't see them, though (unless they lie in the area of doubt about the validity of structural induction)
13:14:02 <int-e> I'm pretty sure that 1/0 is not a natural number, as a matter of anticipation: Such a natural number d would have to satisfy d*0 = 1, but I anticipate that d*0 will always be 0 instead.
13:14:28 <oerjan> (today's retro-meme sponsored by coca-cola (TM))
13:14:33 <int-e> (I also anticipate this discussion getting out of hand.)
13:16:06 <Taneb> oerjan, 2012 is retro!?
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13:16:53 <oerjan> isn't it older than that
13:17:56 <Taneb> Skyrim came out in November 2011
13:18:01 <Taneb> So yes, but not by much
13:19:04 <oerjan> of course the first thing i heard about the meme was people being sick of it
13:21:55 <cpressey> i also think I believe there are more natural numbers than there are even natural numbers
13:22:20 <cpressey> yes, i know those two sets have the same cardinality
13:23:08 <mroman> I'd say that the set of natural numbers should be bigger than the set of even/odd numbers
13:23:14 <mroman> since only every second number is even/odd
13:23:16 <Taneb> I believe that the weather is terrible here right now
13:23:26 <mroman> the set of natural numbers should be twice as large.
13:23:55 <cpressey> that only seems intuitive. and, as we all know, in mathematics, intuition reigns
13:24:17 <mroman> every number except 1 should be the same size as every number except 2
13:24:33 <mroman> and smaller then the set of every number
13:24:40 <lambdabot> ENVA 311320Z 25005KT 210V290 9999 FEW040TCU 05/M03 Q0982 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 33003KT
13:24:47 <lambdabot> EGNT 311320Z 28024G35KT 9999 FEW015CB 07/01 Q1000
13:24:49 <mroman> At least that's my intuition as a sucker at math.
13:26:21 <mroman> 1/n for n -> infinity is infinity too
13:26:33 <mroman> 1/n for n -> 0 is infinity
13:26:52 <mroman> which suggests that infinity * 0 may be 1!
13:27:22 <mroman> which doesn't make sense :)
13:28:11 <cpressey> 1/n for n -> infinity is 0 (according to many people)
13:31:25 <cpressey> just because 1/0 - 1/0 = 0 (in my current madness) doesn't mean that 1/0 = infinity, i should note
13:32:26 <cpressey> it's more that 1/0 is "poorly defined" but - is able to operate on things that are poorly defined
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13:36:36 <cpressey> i would have to work this out in detail, but "how many [even] natural numbers" are also "poorly defined", but again, > is able to operate on them
13:37:08 <cpressey> i'm just kind of hoping someone here sees my madness as says "oh yes, i've seen that before, that's ____ism"
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14:40:07 <cpressey> you may well ask what i believe 0 * 1/0 to be.
14:40:23 <cpressey> 0 * 1/0 contains a race condition, and should not be used in production mathematics
14:41:00 <coppro> Melvar: in a terminal emulator, it will sort of occupy two columns
14:41:19 <coppro> if you backspace it, you only delete the second surrogate and not the first also
14:48:20 <cpressey> another option is that 0 * 1/0 = {0, 1}. why should square root have all the fun of being multi-valued?
14:50:16 <Taneb> cpressey, 0*x = 0, so {0, 1} = 0 * 1/0 = (0*x) * 1/0 = 0 * (x * 1/0) = 0 * (x/0) = x???
14:52:01 <Melvar> coppro: I’ve never noticed any such errors in either gnome-terminal or xfce4-terminal, fwiw.
14:53:21 <Taneb> cpressey, I am suggesting that the set of values 0 * 1/0 is the set of values multiplication is defined for and remains associative
14:54:37 <cpressey> Taneb: yes, well. race conditions are nasty
14:56:30 <cpressey> I believe I will retreat to either 0 * 1/0 = 0, or 0 * 1/0 = 0/0 (which is also "poorly defined")
14:57:04 <myname> it could also be 0 * 1 * 0^(-1) = 0 * 0^(-1) * 1 = 1, no?
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14:58:38 <cpressey> I have definitely not defined ^ yet
14:58:51 <cpressey> And what is it with all this so-called "algebra"
14:59:16 <oerjan> 0 * 1/0 = 0/0 holds in wheel theory, anyway.
15:00:11 <coppro> Melvar: but how configurable and nice are they?
15:00:15 <coppro> can I get rid of all the window decoration?
15:03:52 <cpressey> if wheel theory can make the guts of this madness consistent, i'm all for it
15:04:32 <cpressey> https://github.com/aheui/aheui.aheui/blob/master/aheui.aheui
15:04:41 <cpressey> possibly even more awesome if you can read hangul
15:04:48 <cpressey> because then it sounds like something instead of just looks like something
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15:07:54 <lifthrasiir> cpressey, even to native speakers, this is *really* weird sounded. :)
15:11:14 <Melvar> coppro: I am rid of the window decoration by dint of using xmonad, don’t know how one would remove it if something chooses to draw it in the first place; the menu bar is hideable. In general, probably less configurable than konsole, just by a rule of thumb.
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15:19:05 <cpressey> yeah, no, yeah, wheel theory isn't going to help this
15:23:13 <cpressey> oh great, now i'm listening to bjork singing about lucky nights "when 1 + 1 = 3." this isn't helping
15:25:01 <cpressey> i don't see why my multiplication *has* to be commutative
15:25:25 <cpressey> it's just more useful that way
15:25:56 <int-e> matrix multiplication is not commutative and still useful
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15:29:26 <myname> does anybody know if there was anything about two-dimensional languages of interest in "real science" besides PLAN2D?
15:30:23 <int-e> do 2D cellular automata qualify?
15:30:48 <cpressey> whoa. i had not heard of PLAN2D.
15:31:31 <cpressey> 2d ca's should totally qualify if you are talking about computation, maybe not so much if you are talking about programming
15:31:47 <myname> i am talking about programming
15:31:55 <myname> i know there are a bunch of formal languages
15:33:05 <myname> cpressey: well, yeah, but you don't compile flowcharts
15:33:49 <cpressey> myname: you have to be specific about your constraints. 2-dimensional, programming, compiled...
15:35:05 <int-e> I wonder whether Plankalkül qualifies as a 2D language (it specifies functions as tables that can be nested)
15:35:34 <cpressey> "but you don't compile plankalkuel"
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15:37:06 <int-e> http://zuse-z1.zib.de/simulations/plankalkuel/compiler/plankalk.html ... uses a linearized input format :/
15:37:56 <int-e> Oh I had not found http://www.catb.org/retro/plankalkuel/ yet...
15:38:47 <cpressey> 2-dimensional, programming, compiled, ... and DOES NOT ADMIT A LINEARIZED INPUT FORMAT
15:38:57 <int-e> cpressey: impossible
15:40:01 <int-e> oh well you must know that.
15:53:03 <cpressey> myname: will you accept "interpreted" as well as "compiled"?
15:53:55 <myname> that is indeed an interesting approach
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16:58:12 <cpressey> http://www.philforhumanity.com/Zero_Times_Infinity.html "This is the definition of undefined."
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17:10:24 <cpressey> if your turing machine is going to loop forever, it might as well do something useful while it's looping forever, for example, search for a proof that it loops forever
17:11:32 <coppro> +++ DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER ERROR +++
17:11:40 <coppro> +++ PLEASE REINSTALL UNIVERSE +++
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18:02:52 <Zefphex> Do you ever get that feeling when you see a car you're just like please hit me
18:05:56 <Zefphex> So what you been doin' lately int-e
18:06:36 <int-e> I avoided being hit by cars, among other things.
18:08:13 <Zefphex> No but like never an internal feeling of like hit me car I dare you
18:09:10 <Zefphex> I guess its a youngin' thing int-e is to old to wish to be hit directly with a speeding chunk of steel
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18:14:55 <Zefphex> How do you calculate the infinite curvature of a tomatoe using polynumerals
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18:28:03 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.y’, defined at L.hs:143:1
18:29:34 <oren> does Java enforce capitals on type names
18:30:44 <Zefphex> I don't think so but I haven't been on a computer in 3 years to find out
18:30:54 <zzo38> I don't know how Java does, but in C and C++ the type names are just like any other name; in Haskell you can indicate that it is a type or constructor by capitalizing it.
18:32:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42243&oldid=41898 * Rottytooth * (+22) added Time Out
18:34:38 <oren> Ok... Apparently Java allows me to make classes with any "letters" including unicode
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18:35:52 <oren> So I can have separate classes named Αpple, Apple, apple, and Аpple
18:36:44 <Taneb> What is wrong with that?
18:38:35 <oren> It is surprising because in general languages tend to be ascii, except in strings and comments. It is bad, because there are many characters which are visually identical
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18:40:09 <Taneb> I am not sure about that first point
18:40:13 <Taneb> I know at least Haskell isn't
18:40:24 <int-e> with great power comes great responsibility
18:42:31 <Taneb> Hmm, C seems to be ASCII
18:43:50 <zzo38> I do agree that only strings and comments should be allowed to use non-ASCII characters.
18:44:41 <oren> I was only aware of unicode names being allowed in Perl.
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18:47:06 <oren> another problem could be invisible names: https://www.snip2code.com/Snippet/54187/Unicode-special-space-characters-as-ruby
18:47:20 <oren> which apparently Ruby allows
18:48:56 <zzo38> If non-ASCII names are allowed, you will allow such things like that too, generally.
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18:50:51 <zzo38> Some formats are required to allow non-ASCII names. RDF Turtle does, although my implementation simply allows all bytes 128-255 and all escape codes wherever any escape code or non-ASCII character is allowed. This is one way to do such an implementation without confusion, but still I would recommend, don't use non-ASCII characters outside of string literals and comments.
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19:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42244 * Rottytooth * (+2646) adding new language
19:42:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42245&oldid=42244 * Rottytooth * (-3) /* Language Overview */ formatting, adding how programs end
19:44:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42246&oldid=42245 * Rottytooth * (+25) /* External resources */
19:45:02 <fizzie> Just so you know, there'll be a planned fungot outage soonishly.
19:45:02 <fungot> fizzie: ( which is added to make it recursive... so that it could be
19:45:16 <fizzie> fungot: No, not a recursive outage. How would that even work?
19:45:16 <fungot> fizzie: a real schemer when i use fnord for underlambda, .ul for underload
19:45:53 <cpressey> Warning! Recursive outage ahead!
19:46:38 * cpressey does not know how that would even work, but finds it immensely entertaining to consider
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19:54:53 <oren> Wouldn't a recursive outagebe one where an outage of one server causes another to fail, for multiple levels?
19:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42247&oldid=42246 * Rottytooth * (-1) /* Hello World */ helloworld was wrong
19:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Time Out]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42248 * Rottytooth * (+244) call for comments
19:57:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42249&oldid=42247 * Rottytooth * (+0) /* Language Overview */ fixed forth link
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20:03:16 <cpressey> oren: something like that; my first thought was an outage on one level causing an outage on "the underlying level", whatever that might mean exactly
20:03:28 <cpressey> a software outage causing a hardware outage causing a reality outage
20:03:39 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you like Magic: the Puzzling???
20:03:54 <cpressey> zzo38: I have never tried Magic: The Puzzling
20:04:22 <zzo38> I have the book, but I also wrote some by myself too.
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20:10:50 <zzo38> Maybe you should try, too
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20:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42250&oldid=42249 * Rottytooth * (+197) /* Hello World */
20:49:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42251&oldid=42250 * Rottytooth * (+27) /* Hello World */
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20:55:33 <zzo38> Do you know anything about algorithm for optimizing the frequent words table of a Z-machine file?
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21:00:38 <zzo38> It seems complicated to me, because of possibility of overlapping, as well as the possibility that they will change the optimal shift sequence of other strings.
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21:14:02 <zzo38> However, maybe a good approximation is easier.
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21:54:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42252&oldid=42251 * Rottytooth * (-81) /* Concept */
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23:43:06 <coppro> http://docs.idris-lang.org/en/latest/effects/introduction.html I approve of the footnote
23:48:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42253&oldid=41715 * 199.21.86.10 * (+1) /* if (x) { code1 } else { code2 } */ fix Daniel Marschall's solution. It would never end.
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