←2017-04 2017-05 2017-06→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:20:25 <int-e> do seagulls taste like chicken?
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00:53:02 <boily> INT_ELLO CHICKEN!
00:53:56 <boily> apparently at least some seagulls are or were edible, or non-toxic: http://www.theoldfoodie.com/2015/07/how-to-cook-sea-gull.html
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01:28:40 <boily> `w
01:28:41 <HackEgo> blsq//See: Burlesque
01:28:53 <boily> `? sleffy
01:28:54 <HackEgo> sleffy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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01:38:38 <int-e> @metar lowi
01:38:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 010020Z AUTO VRB06G16KT 9999 NCD 13/M01 Q1009
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02:27:25 <boily> @metar CYUL
02:27:25 <lambdabot> CYUL 010125Z 02008KT 15SM -RA OVC048 06/02 A3020 RMK SC8 -RA INTMT PRESRR SLP228
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02:55:39 <\oren\> Agatha Knife is a good game too
03:13:31 <shachaf> `addquote <Jafet> an #esoteric-dwelling swede / was mistaken for edible feed / “with you,” said a sicko / “our lanttulaatikko / would be very tasty indeed!”
03:13:33 <HackEgo> 1311) <Jafet> an #esoteric-dwelling swede / was mistaken for edible feed / “with you,” said a sicko / “our lanttulaatikko / would be very tasty indeed!”
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03:34:58 <adu> hppavilion[1]: hi
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04:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Hi
04:06:59 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So hyperoperations.
04:07:25 <adu> yey
04:07:34 <adu> hyperoperations are the best
04:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes.
04:07:52 <adu> my friend likes zeration
04:07:59 <adu> I personally like tetration
04:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> [for now, I will use the notation a[n]b as equivalent H_n(b, c)]
04:08:20 <adu> ok
04:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to determine what properties are consistent across them
04:08:40 <adu> 2[n]2 = 4
04:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Ah, yes
04:08:47 <adu> that's the only property
04:09:04 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Are you sure?
04:09:10 <adu> oh
04:09:14 <adu> there is this one thing
04:09:19 <adu> let me find the link
04:10:02 <hppavilion[1]> I conjecture that (a[k]b)[k+1]c = (a[k+1]c) [k] (a[k+1]c) forall a, b, c, k
04:10:29 <adu> is that the definition?
04:10:36 <hppavilion[1]> [note that any variable of unspecified type is assumed to be natural]
04:10:37 <adu> if it is, then yes, it's true
04:10:54 <adu> ... by definition
04:11:15 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Using the standard definition. I could definitely be wrong. I usually am :P
04:11:41 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, well, maybe not with k = 0
04:11:49 <adu> http://math.eretrandre.org/tetrationforum/showthread.php?tid=97&pid=904#pid904
04:12:11 * adu is andydude
04:12:14 <adu> BTW
04:12:16 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I remember
04:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> (a+b)*c = (a*c)+(b*c), (a*b)^c = (a^c)*(b^c)
04:13:58 <adu> hppavilion[1]: where is b on the RHS?
04:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Huh?
04:14:38 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, a[0]b = a+1; (a[0]b)[1]c = (a+1)+c = a+1+c; (a[1]c) [0] (b[1]c) = (a+c)+1 = a+c+1, so as long as + is commutative (read: as long as we're using a reasonable definition of +), it still holds for k=0
04:14:43 <adu> hppavilion[1]: "(a[k+1]c) [k] (a[k+1]c)"
04:14:48 <adu> I don't see any "b"
04:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Oh, whoops, I meant (a[k+1]c) [k] (b[k+1]c)
04:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> ALL NOTATIONS ARE HARD.
04:15:59 * hppavilion[1] . ø Ø ( I wonder what form of "OK" I usually use )
04:19:14 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I know it's true for k == 2
04:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's well-known to be true (as in, it's some Algebra I shit) for k = 1, 2, and I just proved it for k = 0
04:20:25 <adu> I would have to calculate for k == 3 becayse that requires knowledge of tetration
04:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> I'm verifying for k = 3 in mathb.in
04:21:13 <adu> My tetration library is on another hard drive, so I would have to go digging
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04:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> Gragh, I can't get latex to put an expression in an underbrace in an exponenet
04:36:44 <hppavilion[1]> *exponent
04:36:52 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow, that's a pretty convoluted use case
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04:45:53 <doesthiswork> is there a formula for rational n-ation?
05:00:37 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: AFAICT, finding such a thing is pretty much adu's life's work
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05:08:54 <doesthiswork> how about complex n-ation?
05:14:17 <adu> what?
05:14:37 <adu> doesthiswork: that's rediculous
05:17:59 <doesthiswork> we can do complex powers and complex addition
05:19:42 <doesthiswork> so why not more?
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05:21:28 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: We can also do complex products hth
05:22:07 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Hm, I wonder if defining the hyperoperations so zeration is a[1]b is a good plan... I see something we might be able to pull off with that
05:22:21 <doesthiswork> woops, I forgot about those, just assume linear interpolation
05:22:41 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what can we pull off?
05:22:55 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm typing it, hold your esohorses
05:23:25 <hppavilion[1]> If we do that, and assume k = e^θi (that is, k is on the unit circle at the angle θ), a[k]b = a+k
05:23:32 <hppavilion[1]> Complex successor.
05:24:40 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe something polar would be better?
05:26:54 <Jafet> (shachaf: should context-free limericks / really be quoted? / surely the DB is bloated / already with many a / fool and his dazzled perception / of what should be funnier / notarizing every disingenious volkssage)
05:27:22 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: ...what even was that thing?
05:27:41 <Jafet> (the chance might be slim, for ex- / ample, that hereafter / seekers of prurient laughter / recalling this memette / but not its conception / would probably see it / as more than punning scandinavian-as-rutabaga)
05:28:12 <Jafet> ok finding a rhyme for rutabaga was hard
05:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: I wish rutabaga were orange. Also, is it rhyming at all?
05:28:57 <hppavilion[1]> If so, I can't tell what the scheme is
05:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, I see two rhymes, but they're pretty irregular)
05:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> If a[i]b = (a+1) * e^bi, that could mean... hm...
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05:32:59 <hppavilion[1]> adu: ...I wonder if having complex-index hyperoperations behave so that the cube roots of n^3 represent Hyper n, Hyperroot n, and Hyperlog n would- oh, you're gone
05:34:17 <Jafet> so there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration#Extension_to_complex_heights
05:35:16 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: I did not know that
05:39:04 <hppavilion[1]> Fun Fact: If you do `cd ..` from the root directory with sufficient permissions, your cwd will change to "the universe"
05:39:15 <hppavilion[1]> And you'll be able to modify reality from the command line
05:39:53 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: what about hyperloglog n hth
05:40:09 <shachaf> i,i Tetragammation#Extension_to_complex_heights
05:40:23 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: YWHW+2i
05:40:28 <shachaf> Until today I thought it was called that. Apparently it's "tetragammaton".
05:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> Er
05:40:31 <hppavilion[1]> YHWH
05:40:45 <shachaf> YHTH
05:40:56 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: JHWH Conway
05:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> $ cd /..; echo "Kill them all" >> people/jacob-mcalister/brain/thoughts
05:41:14 <shachaf> YHTHMV
05:41:30 <shachaf> Jafet's rhyme is pretty good but I'm in no state of mind to respond in kind.
05:41:38 <hppavilion[1]> Now poor Mr. McAlister has been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic
05:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> (just be happy for him that I used ">>" instead of ">")
05:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> (him and the rest of us)
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05:44:59 <zzo38> Are you going to tell them to add the support for farbfeld into ImageMagick (for completeness)?
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05:45:27 <shachaf> Who, me?
05:45:48 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Him, you.
05:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> What's the maximum length for an IRC topic?
05:49:03 <shachaf> We need to institute a code review policy for the topic.
05:49:03 <zzo38> I don't know. I have read the RFC at one time but I forget whether or not it mentioned any maximum (and if it did, what it is).
05:49:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Probably. I was going to readd the standard header: "The international hub of Esoteric Programming Language discussion, design, development, and deployment"
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05:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> (well, a variant thereof)
05:50:06 <shachaf> Why? This is already enough content.
05:50:15 <shachaf> People get that information in the welcome message anyway.
05:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...good question
05:50:22 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, yeah, that thing
05:50:24 <shachaf> Short topics are better than long topics.
05:50:49 * hppavilion[1] resists the urge to blank the topic and replace it with that
05:51:09 <zzo38> The URL for the log should remain in the topic message at least.
05:51:15 <shachaf> Which URL?
05:51:19 <shachaf> The one that hasn't worked for months?
05:51:23 <zzo38> The one that works.
05:51:31 <shachaf> But that one has incomplete history.
05:51:46 <zzo38> Then, both.
05:52:09 <shachaf> Maybe all the URLs should be replaced with a wiki link.
05:52:21 <shachaf> It can link to the PDF, if people care about the PDF. Then that doesn't need to be in the topic.
05:52:25 <zzo38> No, I think is better to be directly for the log URLs at least.
05:52:38 <shachaf> But the wiki never goes down.
05:52:46 <shachaf> It has a 100% SLA.
05:52:50 <zzo38> For other stuff (such as that PDF) it could go into wiki.
05:52:59 <shachaf> We just need a Gopher API to it so it works for all users.
05:53:06 <shachaf> Sorry, Gopher UI.
05:53:11 <shachaf> Gopher interface, whatever it is.
05:53:33 <zzo38> Making the logs available on gopher should be easily enough to implement.
05:58:59 <Sgeo> RIP flash easter eggs on Newgrounds
05:59:24 <Sgeo> I just watched an old flash video and NG secretly converted it to actual video... which eliminated some easter eggs I liked
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07:22:21 <zzo38> I tried compressing various pictures by using farbfeld and then compressing with gzip, bzip2, and xz, with various other filters and options. Some pictures compress better with bzip2, some compress better with xz, and even with xz, some compress better with delta-coding and some work better without. Sometimes Paeth helps, but sometimes it makes it worse.
07:24:27 <zzo38> FLIF seems to be much better compression. I read the information of file format and there seem some thing missing.
07:24:53 <pikhq> FLIF is fairly complex, isn't it?
07:25:10 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I think so.
07:26:19 <zzo38> But see http://flif.info/example.html and it list the various compressed sizes. Using the picture of the fish there, covnerted to farbfeld, "ff-turn 5 | ff-paeth e | ff-turn 5 | bzip2 -9" results in 381632 bytes.
07:29:57 <zzo38> (ff-turn is reversed by using ff-turn again with the same number; ff-paeth e is reversed by ff-paeth d.)
07:31:18 <pikhq> That's roughly what I'd expect.
07:31:45 <zzo38> What is roughly what you would expect? (I am not sure what you are referring to)
07:31:48 <pikhq> With Paeth you're basically doing the same thing as PNG, only with a smarter general-purpose compression algorithm than deflate.
07:32:03 <pikhq> The 381632 bytes for the BZ2-compressed Paeth Farbfeld file.
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07:33:10 <zzo38> Ah, OK. (Although this command is also making Paeth in a different direction, because ff-turn is flipping/rotating the picture before and after the Paeth coding.)
07:36:05 <zzo38> I would want to add a FLIF encoder and FLIF decoder into Farbfeld Utilities though; encoder/decoder for other formats should also be added.
07:43:48 <zzo38> Probably why the documentation for near zero symbol coding in the FLIF specification is difficult to understand, is due to because RAC is not described (it just says "TODO: describe the 24-bit RAC and the 12-bit chances.")
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11:16:10 <rdococ> mew
11:16:30 <myname> mewtwo
11:17:47 <rdococ> mewthree
11:21:15 <rdococ> wait
11:21:20 <rdococ> we forgot mewe and mewpi
11:21:38 <myname> "we"? you.
11:22:03 <rdococ> Actually, I was using exclusive "we", which makes some sense in context.
11:24:20 <Taneb> No, it was just you
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11:25:38 <rdococ> How do you know I'm not with someone else?
11:26:07 <rdococ> Oh, wait.
11:26:17 <rdococ> I forgot, you guys don't know what a joke is, unless it's in wisdom.
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11:26:53 <rdococ> I'm going to say this for every time I annoy you: I'm sorry.
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11:38:50 <oerjan> bood afternoily
11:43:59 <boily> bon matǿrjan.
11:44:55 <int-e> sigh, free day... need to prepare a talk... fun.
11:45:24 <boily> int-ello. we don't have a free day today :(
11:46:40 <int-e> Well it's called Labour Day after all.
11:46:53 <rdococ> ...hi.
11:47:02 <boily> rdochelloc!
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11:47:47 <erkin> What kind of country doesn't have a free day on Labour Day?
11:47:48 <rdococ> hoily.
11:48:25 <oerjan> erkin: the us, probably.
11:48:41 <oerjan> and then they push canada into doing the same.
11:48:43 <boily> hellorkin. us too, certainly.
11:48:44 <int-e> (actually in Austria it's called "Staatsfeiertag", but it's still rooted in the Labour Day tradition)
11:49:05 <erkin> oh no
11:49:13 <erkin> helloily
11:49:33 <int-e> (Staat = state. Confusingly there's a "Nationalfeiertag" as well, which is synonymous, so I never know which is which.)
11:49:36 * erkin checks to see if police brutality happened today
11:50:02 <int-e> (Oh I didn't translate the rest. "Feiertag", literally is "day of celebration".)
11:50:20 <erkin> Yup
11:50:25 <erkin> It started early today.
11:50:51 <oerjan> . o O ( while January 1 is Staatsfeuertag )
11:51:04 <erkin> I thought that was New Year's Day
11:51:44 <oerjan> *whoosh*
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11:52:00 <erkin> ...I still don't get it D:
11:52:10 <oerjan> Feuer = fire, hth
11:52:13 <erkin> ohh
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11:52:44 <erkin> Wasn't yesterday Walpurgisnacht?
11:52:55 <erkin> Bonfire stuff day
11:53:33 <oerjan> probably. we don't have that in norway (we do the bonfires on st john's eve, June 23)
11:55:14 <erkin> Our bonfire thing was in 21 March
11:55:35 <oerjan> that's definitely too cold for a bonfire... er wait
11:56:10 * oerjan gets confused by bonfires being a midsummer thing
11:56:38 <erkin> Do you dance around maypoles on May Day?
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11:57:08 <oerjan> no. that may be the swedes.
11:57:28 <oerjan> well it _is_ the swedes, i'm just not sure when.
11:57:45 <erkin> Probably sometime midsommar.
11:58:36 <boily> enjoying bonfires around la St-Jean sounds like a shared tradition ^^
11:58:58 <erkin> I want to visit Norway someday.
11:59:06 <erkin> And check their local native beer scene.
11:59:06 <oerjan> our big day in may is may 17, the national day.
12:00:24 <erkin> Stuff like spissøl (svagdricka), maltøl (Malzbier), hvidtøl, kornøl, Vossaøl, Stjørdalsøl etc.
12:00:32 * erkin drools
12:01:21 <oerjan> the tradition for today, which not that many join, is the laborer's parade.
12:01:31 <erkin> Why not?
12:02:01 <oerjan> well it's not that big any more. although the politicians (at least some parties) make sure to show up.
12:02:13 <oerjan> *s'
12:02:45 <erkin> Aw.
12:04:37 <rdococ> "fiya"
12:04:54 <oerjan> @wn fiya
12:04:55 <lambdabot> No match for "fiya".
12:05:00 <oerjan> no such word hth
12:05:02 <rdococ> /faij/ + schwa at the end
12:05:09 <rdococ> s/i/ı
12:05:15 <rdococ> or I if you like SAMPA
12:05:30 <oerjan> wait, are you talking about Feuer
12:05:38 <oerjan> or fire
12:05:41 <rdococ> no, the pronunciation of <fire>
12:06:06 <oerjan> i don't think it's a schwa in rhotic dialects
12:06:19 <oerjan> or rather, it's a rhotacized one
12:06:24 <rdococ> still a schwa :P
12:06:37 <rdococ> also, my dialect is non-rhotic, so there's that
12:07:54 <oerjan> i vaguely think the austrians pronounce "Feuer" pretty close to that.
12:09:06 <oerjan> or wait hm
12:09:17 <erkin> faiə
12:10:16 <oerjan> hm /ˈfaɪər/ says wiktionary
12:11:17 <erkin> Might be dialectal as well.
12:11:32 <oerjan> yes, it's with a list of dialects
12:11:51 <oerjan> "austro-bavarian"
12:12:15 <erkin> So, Oberdeutsch?
12:12:23 <oerjan> i don't know that term.
12:15:17 <boily> /fø/.
12:15:57 <erkin> /føily/
12:18:18 <boily> glyphically correct, but the pronounciation hurts :P
12:19:15 <oerjan> itym "burns" hth
12:19:29 <rdococ> I also pronounce fire with a /j/
12:19:39 <rdococ> Faiyer
12:24:22 <erkin> I pronounce it faɪə
12:25:49 <rdococ> I still think it should be spelt fiyer or faiyer or something similar
12:26:00 <rdococ> okay, maybe not think it should
12:27:37 <rdococ> interestingly, I've read that its root in Old English is <fyr>
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12:38:02 * rdococ glues boily's mouth shut with maple syrup
12:45:23 <rdococ> so I guess it should be fier, like how metre is now spelt meter (at least in the US)
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13:03:10 <rdococ> ɥaɥ
13:04:22 <oerjan> still is "fyr" in norwegian hth
13:05:09 <rdococ> fɥr
13:05:18 <oerjan> it's not actually the main word for fire any longer, though.
13:05:30 <rdococ> what is the main word for fire now then?
13:05:39 <oerjan> ild
13:06:24 <oerjan> well, i don't know that it ever was, i'm not a norse expert.
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13:22:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51831&oldid=51823 * Programmer5000 * (+155)
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14:26:52 <rdococ> imagine an RPG where each species is a class, and its specimen are instances of it
14:27:29 <rdococ> "I am deleting, no, not just your life force, but your class life force! All humans will be gone! Mw ha ha ha!"
14:29:05 <rdococ> "They would, but you forgot one thing." "What?!" "I've just disconnected you from your name. garbagecollection:collect()" "...Fuck."
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16:05:31 <moony> I've decided to write a bot that randomly chooses a topic from a list, and asks about it when a channel has been inactive for 5 minutes because why not
16:09:19 <Taneb> That sounds annoying
16:09:30 <Taneb> Could you make the timer a couple of hours instead?
16:09:48 <Taneb> Otherwise the channel's gonna be 90% your bot spamming things up
16:17:12 <fizzie> There's a lot of reasons[^1] why not, but if you're doing this on some other channel, knock yourself out. [^1] To name a few, it would entirely ruin activity indicators, and be really annoying for people who want to logread without a hundred lines of spam.
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16:37:37 <moony> Its not for this channel lol
16:37:49 <moony> its an experiment
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16:54:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aya]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51832&oldid=50988 * Npaul * (-4)
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18:10:55 <Zarutian> moony: you could increase the timer to 15 minutes
18:12:08 <zzo38> Fifteen minute is not enough you should need fifteen hours.
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19:11:17 <zzo38> This GURPS game is so far four character in main party, and so far only the two human characters is damaged the monster characters is not but we can try to find the barn to heal them. In one way is fortunate that only human character is damage because is probably more easily to find help; any healers (using non-magical methods) can have physiology penalties.
19:12:18 <zzo38> (Some skills in GURPS have physiology penalties for operating on different species.)
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21:14:05 <\oren\> RRGH why is there no open-source tax filing software
21:16:23 <zzo38> I have thought about that too.
21:16:44 <moony> \oren\, LETS MAKE ONE \s
21:16:45 <zzo38> I found a description written somewhere (on pin eight wiki I think?) that mentions a possible reason.
21:16:54 <zzo38> moony: Yes, but do you know how?
21:17:49 <moony> did you not see my \s?
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21:25:13 <\oren\> I was listening to the 1980 us election the other day. Apparently Ohio has been losing industrial jobs for 36 years
21:37:24 <\oren\> also holy shit chris wallace is older than fucking dirt
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21:54:53 <\oren\> actually, 2048 is a great election year, the only pwoer-of-two election year
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22:24:49 <\oren\> gabrielle cirulli for president 2048
22:25:20 <shachaf> president of what
22:30:23 <\oren\> shachaf: aww you didn't get it
22:31:01 <\oren\> 2048 is an USA election year and also a video game made by gabriele cirulli
22:32:19 <shachaf> I got that.
22:32:59 <shachaf> But you're not in the US so why are US election years your thing?
22:33:20 <Taneb> They have olympics in them
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22:33:59 <shachaf> It's also a Finnish election year, for example.
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22:41:58 <\oren\> shachaf: because for us canadians, USA elections are things we watch for morbid entertainment
22:42:13 <shachaf> but you're a non-us canadian hth
22:42:29 <shachaf> `? the us
22:42:32 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
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22:56:50 <boily> `w
22:56:51 <HackEgo> preprocessor//Preprocessing code in C was actually the precursor to IRC & Twitter, and the first to kick off the hashtag craze.
22:57:04 <int-e> :-(
22:58:44 <shachaf> `cwlprits preprocessor
22:58:53 <HackEgo> rdocöc
22:59:31 <shachaf> `dowg preprocessor
22:59:38 <HackEgo> 10746:2017-04-16 <rdocöc> le//rn preprocessor//Preprocessing code in C was actually the precursor to IRC & Twitter, and the first to kick off the hashtag craze.
23:00:04 <shachaf> look
23:00:09 <shachaf> `forget preprocessor
23:00:10 <HackEgo> Forget what?
23:01:18 <boily> int-elloochaf.
23:02:22 <int-e> I hope that wasn't superglue
23:02:44 <int-e> phew seems I'm still detached.
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23:04:41 <boily> if anything, you'd be glued to a pooch, which isn't half bad, eh?
23:07:33 <int-e> hmm.
23:07:46 <int-e> I don't particularly like dogs.
23:08:13 <int-e> But it doesn't matter now. I'm off to bed.
23:08:39 <shachaf> `? int-e
23:08:40 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans.
23:10:43 <boily> bonne nuint-e!
23:11:12 <\oren\> `w
23:11:13 <HackEgo> epsilon//epsilon stands for Extensible Platform of Integrated Languages for Model Management (EPILMM)
23:11:18 <\oren\> `w
23:11:20 <HackEgo> taiwan//Taiwan is a country of which the United Nations denies the existence, just like Macedonia is.
23:11:34 <\oren\> `w
23:11:36 <HackEgo> ent//Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-{s-zár-szó,{rend,szem}-e-s} Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-{fél-egy-ház-a,hal-a-s} Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
23:11:39 <\oren\> `w
23:11:41 <HackEgo> mark//A mark of one's destiny singled out alone, fulfilled.
23:11:47 <\oren\> `w
23:11:49 <HackEgo> hat//hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo
23:12:14 <\oren\> `dowg hat
23:12:21 <HackEgo> 4129:2013-12-05 <oerjän> echo "hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo" >wisdom/hat
23:12:41 <shachaf> `dowg epsilon
23:12:48 <HackEgo> 5602:2015-06-17 <Tanëb> learn epsilon stands for Extensible Platform of Integrated Languages for Model Management (EPILMM)
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23:16:54 <boily> he\\oren\.
23:17:16 <boily> . o O ( oerjan did hat? I'm sure it's the kind of wisdom I do... )
23:17:55 <shachaf> haters gonna hate hatees
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23:29:57 <boily> `w
23:29:58 <HackEgo> patch//patch is the precursor to both perl and version control.
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00:19:36 <\oren\> `w
00:19:38 <HackEgo> treefolk//Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons.
00:20:24 <shachaf> `grwp intellectual property
00:20:38 <HackEgo> halfling:Halflings are genericized hobbits for intellectual property reasons. \ keenlist:keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall finally acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast \ kithkin:Kithkins are genericized halflings for intellectual property reasons, except th
00:21:26 <shachaf> `2 grwp 'intellectual property'
00:21:28 <HackEgo> 2/3:ons, except they also have some limited telepathy to remote sense each others' emotions. \ termite:Termites are genericized ants for intellectual property reasons. \ treant:Treants are genericized ents for intellectual property reasons. \ treefolk:Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons. \ vegemite:Vegemite
00:21:43 <shachaf> `n
00:21:43 <HackEgo> 3/3:is genericized marmite for intellectual property reasons.
00:21:58 <shachaf> `grwp intellectual propriety
00:22:00 <HackEgo> No output.
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02:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> @tell boily Happy maday! Do you plan to do a mapole dance?
02:07:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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04:21:44 <shachaf> `? gaspacho
04:21:45 <HackEgo> You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
04:22:03 <shachaf> `? gazpacho
04:22:04 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
04:22:10 <shachaf> `grwp soup
04:22:11 <HackEgo> gaspasjo:Gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ gaspatsjo:gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ gaszpacho:gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days \ mothball:Mothballs are the main ingredient of a traditional soup of Eastern Europe
04:23:33 <rdococ> oh
04:23:38 <rdococ> hi
04:24:08 <shachaf> oerjan: do you like gazpoocho?
04:24:16 <shachaf> i,i `learn Gospecho is a cold soup invented by Bill Gosper.
04:25:19 <shachaf> Hmm, there should be a rule of wisdom that says they have to terminate any special IRC formatting they introduce.
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05:29:54 <sleffy> You know it's time to go to sleep when you make an audible "squee" noise at the excitement of someone else's working Scheme interpreter
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05:37:32 <hppavilion[0]> sleffy: "sleep" like "the big sleep", yes?
05:38:06 <sleffy> Please don't euthanize me. I have so many ridiculous things to write.
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06:05:36 <hppavilion[0]> I'd like to see compound exams
06:05:45 <hppavilion[0]> Like, a Physics+Ethics exam
06:06:27 <hppavilion[0]> You're given information about the track you're on, and you have to (a) use physics to calculate the exact properties of this Trolley problem then (b) determine whether you should swerve
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10:36:48 <izabera> `unidecode �
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11:36:56 <boily> `w
11:36:58 <HackEgo> cigar//A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood.
11:39:01 <oerjan> `ello boily
11:39:02 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found
11:39:06 <oerjan> `hello boily
11:39:07 <HackEgo> hello world
11:39:15 <oerjan> sheesh
11:39:31 <oerjan> `` ls bin/*ello*
11:39:32 <HackEgo> bin/hello \ bin/hello-world-in-any-language
11:39:47 <oerjan> `doag bin/ello
11:39:57 <HackEgo> 4699:2014-07-27 <ellioẗt> ` rm bin/{node,ello} \ 4071:2013-11-22 <mrhmous̈e> chmod +x bin/ello \ 4070:2013-11-22 <mrhmous̈e> mv raw.php* bin/ello \ 4068:2013-11-22 <mrhmous̈e> chmod +x bin/ello \ 4067:2013-11-22 <mrhmous̈e> mv raw.php* bin/ello \ 4058:2013-11-22 <mrhmous̈e> echo "(function(){var e,l,o,t;t=process.argv[2],(null!=t?t.length:vo
11:40:17 <oerjan> `doag bin/hello
11:40:24 <HackEgo> 8838:2016-07-24 <wob_jonäs> `` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $\'#!/usr/bin/perl\\n\'\'$c=unpack"C",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello",($c&2?"":","),($c&4?" W":" w"),"orld",($c&16?$c&8?",":"!":$c&8?".":""),($c&32?"":"\\n");\' \ 8837:2016-07-24 <wob_jonäs> `` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $\'#!/usr/bin/perl\\n\'\'$c=unpack"C",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello"
11:40:36 <oerjan> `doat bin/hello
11:40:43 <HackEgo> 2448:2013-03-17 <Tanëb> echo "echo Hello" > bin/hello \ 2454:2013-03-18 <Bik̈e> chmod +x bin/hello \ 8831:2016-07-24 <int-̈e> rm bin/hello \ 8832:2016-07-24 <wob_jonäs> `` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $\'#!/usr/bin/perl\\n\'\'$c=unpack"h",pack"h",$ARGV[0]",($c&4?"w":"W"),"orld",($c&8?"."),"\\n";\' &&chmod -c a+x $e \ 8833:2016-07-24 <wob_jonäs> ``
11:41:14 <boily> @massages-loud
11:41:15 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 9h 33m 35s ago: Happy maday! Do you plan to do a mapole dance?
11:41:21 <oerjan> i thought we had a command for that...
11:41:54 <oerjan> now i'm imagining a canadian monty python sketch...
11:42:24 <oerjan> with those police in red
11:42:37 <boily> I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK ♪
11:43:10 <oerjan> except with mapole dancing, obviously
11:43:10 <boily> ♪ bœrjan matin ♪
11:46:08 <oerjan> incidentally there's a norwegian dance involving a pole and a hat https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausdans
11:48:40 <boily> what the fungot is going on in that picture...
11:48:40 <fungot> boily: oh yes.
11:49:00 <oerjan> the traditional hat kicking leap hth
11:49:09 <oerjan> (which is the high point of the dance)
11:50:06 <boily> tdh.
11:50:13 <oerjan> here's a youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wq6If8MsFQ
11:52:22 <oerjan> 2:15 is the kick
11:53:02 <boily> tdah.
11:53:41 <oerjan> and another at 3:10
11:54:41 <boily> I mapprove.
11:57:26 <oerjan> . o O ( the harding fiddle is like the lutefisk of music. )
12:01:05 <boily> . o O ( what's the resonnance frequency of a lutefisk... )
12:07:32 <Jafet> middle sea
12:09:45 * Nistur plays rimshot
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12:23:19 * boily joyfully mapoles Jafet
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12:54:35 <oerjan> `grwp soup
12:54:53 <HackEgo> gaspasjo:Gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ gaspatsjo:gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ gaszpacho:gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days \ mothball:Mothballs are the main ingredient of a traditional soup of Eastern Europe
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14:21:40 <wob_jonas> `? hello
14:21:41 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
14:21:45 <wob_jonas> `? `hello
14:21:46 <HackEgo> ​`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 letter later to s/d,/d/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline.
14:22:07 <ais523> is this a very simple golfing language?
14:22:18 <wob_jonas> oerjan: and I'm sorry about that, I got carried away with encoding six bits of info in the argument, so feel free to replace it with a saner script if you wish
14:22:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah
14:22:30 <ais523> also, what's lowercase @? `?
14:22:35 <wob_jonas> yes
14:22:59 <ais523> I'm a little scared I have that memorized
14:23:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: and the lowercase of "_" is "?" in this case, because only modulo 64 matters
14:23:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think many people here know the ascii table memorized
14:23:35 <wob_jonas> I certainly do (at least the printable characters, I don't remember all the controls)
14:23:38 <ais523> I don't have it all memorized
14:23:39 <ais523> just lots of it
14:23:51 <wob_jonas> I also know some important non-ascii unicode stuff
14:23:59 * ais523 idly wonders if anyone's memorized all of Unicode
14:24:28 <ais523> hmm, something that caught me out a bunch programming Jelly is that Đ and Ð are not the same character
14:24:43 <ais523> I can't distinguish them in any font I've seen them in
14:24:54 <ais523> `unidecode ĐÐ
14:25:05 <wob_jonas> ascii isn't that hard. it's just like space ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / then 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 : ; < = > ?
14:25:40 <ais523> the first few punctuation marks catch me out because they're almost just the shifted numbers on a US keyboard
14:25:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, those look the same in most fonts. they differ in mine and in oren's, but that's because we specifically make them distinguishable. normally you distinguish them from context: in a serbian word it must be D with stroke, in an icelandic word it's capital eth
14:25:52 <ais523> but ^ is missing, ' is added, and * is the wrong side of ()
14:26:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, and they're clearly distinct characters because đ and ð, the lowercase versions, are obviously different
14:26:30 <wob_jonas> and then @ A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O then P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ \ ] ^ _
14:26:53 <wob_jonas> then ` a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o then p q r s t u v w x y z { | } ~ del
14:27:51 <wob_jonas> where del is the character with all bits set that was used in 7-hole ticker tape to overpunch a character so it's ignored on read, that way when you read back the ticker tape, you no longer get the backspacing and correction printed, only the correct version
14:28:31 <wob_jonas> they didn't have that in 5-bit ticker tape, because they had too few bytes available, so there you couldn't easily correct mistakes without rewriting
14:29:04 <ais523> yep
14:29:07 <ais523> and nul is ignored for similar reasons
14:29:18 <ais523> (it's space you left on the tape to be able to insert characters)
14:29:29 <wob_jonas> only, nobody really uses this, because by the time people started to use 7-bit instead of 5-bit, they stopped using ticker tape, because magnetic disks and RAM and cpus became cheap enough to store text on magnetic disks
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14:35:39 <wob_jonas> oh, encodings reminds me
14:36:51 <wob_jonas> I bought TAOCP 3rd ed, original English (the translation is based on 2nd ed) in the PDF edition. In vol. 1 p. 140, which lists the MMIX six-bit character table, the greek letters don't show up, instead some other symbols are shown.
14:37:33 <APic> /g 99
14:37:36 <APic> ww
14:37:51 <wob_jonas> Those same garbage symbols show up later in an exercise. This isn't mentioned in Knuth's official errata. My question is: WTF?
14:38:00 <wob_jonas> How did they mess that up?
14:38:41 <wob_jonas> I wonder if it's somehow an encoding trouble between LaTeX fonts and plain TeX fonts, but I don't think so.
14:39:22 <ais523> LaTeX encoding is a crazy situatoin anyway
14:39:36 <wob_jonas> yes, but LaTeX shouldn't figure in that at all
14:39:44 <wob_jonas> and even if it does, Knuth is really careful
14:39:49 <wob_jonas> and when he's not, he at least puts out an errata
14:40:08 <wob_jonas> I even wonder if it's some client-side problem at my side or something
14:41:59 <wob_jonas> MIX character code is a really strange encoding by the way. It has exactly 56 characters defined, rather than 63. What happened with Knuth when he made that, when he normally fills up everything with junk to a round number so that other people don't make incompatible extensions?
14:43:40 <wob_jonas> Why are the last 8 characters not there?
14:44:24 <APic> *shrug*
14:44:32 <wob_jonas> The charset is indirectly an ebcdic-relative, in the sense that both ebcdic and MIX character code are inspired by the encoding of letters and numbers on the 12-row Hollerith punch cards
14:44:46 <wob_jonas> that's why both ebcdic and MIX character code have holes between I and J
14:45:54 <wob_jonas> so the a card reader or puncher connected to a *decimal* MIX computer can have as simple a logic as possible
14:49:47 <wob_jonas> decode digit, add 30 normally, add 0 if hole in row 12, add 10 if hole in row 11, add 20 if hole in row 0, handle space specially. sadly it gets much uglier if you want punctuation marks too.
14:50:13 <wob_jonas> maybe they use some modified punched card code for punctuation marks.
14:50:35 <wob_jonas> there are lots of variants of that supposedly
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14:52:12 <wob_jonas> I see \oren\ was listing my wisdoms again
14:53:00 <wob_jonas> hasn't deleted them this time
14:53:05 <wob_jonas> I appreciate that
14:57:46 <wob_jonas> "<\oren\> RRGH why is there no open-source tax filing software" -- I don't think that's possible economically. The difficult part of tax filing software is that the tax rules and forms change every year. The hardest part of maintaining such a software is to update it quickly every year. And open-source software could perhaps let you file your tax f
14:57:46 <wob_jonas> or ten years ago.
14:59:46 <wob_jonas> In Hungary, NAV maintains and releases tax filing software themselves. It's some java thing, but I don't quite understand the system requirements, apparently it requires a future version of 32-bit Java VM and 64-bit firefox with 32-bit directX support for the directX print driver or else you can't print forms, or something.
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15:00:51 <wob_jonas> Also, it's strict, in the sense that it doesn't let you fill forms wrong, but you know that thing Douglas Adams said about things that can't go wrong. When the forms are wrong and you have to fill them wrong deliberately, you're on your own.
15:01:41 <wob_jonas> There are rumors like that there is like one person in the country with a one-letter family name, and he can't file his taxes electronically, because the software absolutely refuses to believe his family name is made of one letter.
15:03:05 <Jafet> does he not have a family, then
15:03:18 <Jafet> or maybe they don't file tax reports
15:03:36 <wob_jonas> It's sort of the same as these web forms where they make you fill out your postal address by choosing a country from their list, then a state from a list of the 50 US states, then a 5-digit zip code, and a street name with only uppercase ascii letters and digits and no punctuation.
15:04:11 <wob_jonas> Jafet: I assume either they're minors with no taxable income yet, or they have got a double family name with both parents' family names combined, or something.
15:04:26 <wob_jonas> or maybe they have done the sensible thing and migrated abroad.
15:05:06 <Jafet> there is probably some canonical php script somewhere that implements that form and everyone just copies it around
15:06:15 <Jafet> if you're lucky, that script knows how to md5 the password for the account you have to create before you're allowed to buy things
15:07:00 <wob_jonas> in case you need such a thing, (a) take postal address as two fields, rest of the address and country, with both of them being free-form text, (b) an unofficial but very useful guide is at http://www.columbia.edu/~fdc/postal/
15:09:05 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> is "fyr" in norwegian hth" -- what? how do they say five then?
15:10:28 <wob_jonas> or four, or whatever that is
15:10:50 <wob_jonas> "fire" apparently. great.
15:11:45 <wob_jonas> gotta AFK now for a few hours
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17:02:36 <rdococ> fyr
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17:23:15 <SexxyLucy> SexyLucy32
17:23:16 <SexxyLucy> http://bit.do/dkwH4
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17:36:14 <wob_jonas> `? bofh
17:36:15 <HackEgo> bofh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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18:17:26 <\oren\> `learn A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP.
18:17:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'bofh': A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP.
18:19:22 <\oren\> see http://php.net/manual/en/types.comparisons.php for a giant table of the bullshit that == does in PHP
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18:20:52 <wob_jonas> heh
18:20:58 <\oren\> for eaxmple, in PHP == is not commutative
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18:22:31 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, I hear it's the one people use to compare hex hashed passwords, and it only works if the hex hashed password starts with a letter, not a decimal digit
18:22:58 <APic> Good old $PHP…
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18:23:46 <\oren\> I mean perl gets all this flack but at least in perl you have separate == and eq operators
18:26:00 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, but the alarming part is the trend. the php people realized it's bullshit and added a === operator that behaves sanely, and now people usually shouldn't use the == operator except in special cases where you should; whereas in perl, they added a =~ operator that behaves completely insanely stupid and against how perl generally works, th
18:26:00 <wob_jonas> en deprecated it because it's stupid.
18:26:06 <wob_jonas> but people still use it.
18:26:45 <\oren\> =~ is really only used to associate a regex with the thing it is acting on
18:26:47 <APic> Insanity ♥
18:26:53 <wob_jonas> yeah, its' ~~ actually
18:26:54 <\oren\> afaik
18:26:55 <wob_jonas> forget =~
18:26:56 <wob_jonas> sorry
18:27:02 <wob_jonas> it's the ~~ smart match operator
18:27:26 <wob_jonas> it's so stupid I don't even remember its name
18:27:42 <wob_jonas> I used it once in an obfuscation, just to show how stupid it is
18:27:54 <wob_jonas> and it's not even a good obfuscation
18:28:09 <wob_jonas> it doesn't show out how inconsistently stupid the oeprator is, or how much it's against perl philosophy
18:28:27 <\oren\> I don't think i've ever used it
18:28:33 <wob_jonas> (in fact, all that p5p does these days for several years is against it)
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18:39:17 <wob_jonas> \oren\: wait, it's not commutative? can you give an example?
18:39:37 <wob_jonas> \oren\: you don't just mean it's not associative, right? because that's much easier and much more common
18:40:01 <wob_jonas> (even == in C isn't associative, if you involve two types)
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18:44:42 <rdococ> yay
18:45:18 <APic> Yay.
18:47:21 <\oren\> "php" == TRUE. "php" == 0. TRUE != 0.
18:47:35 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that's associativity
18:47:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's less surprising than if it was not commutative
18:48:07 <wob_jonas> now with PHP, you never know, so it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't commutative
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18:48:49 <wob_jonas> and of course, it can be deliberate. ruby has a === operator that is deliberately not commutative.
18:49:10 <shachaf> \oren\: http://i.imgur.com/6BYGcfx.jpg hth
18:49:49 <wob_jonas> shachaf: hehe
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18:56:26 <\oren\> 0133 != "0133". "0133" == 133
18:56:59 <wob_jonas> \oren\: leading zero
18:57:04 <wob_jonas> \oren\: 0133 versus 133
18:57:14 <\oren\> "0x10" = 16 though
18:57:15 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 0133," ",133
18:57:16 <HackEgo> 91 133 at -e line 1.
18:57:43 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 0133!="0133"," ","0133"==133
18:57:44 <HackEgo> 1 1 at -e line 1.
18:59:42 <\oren\> `perl -e print "0x10"==16
18:59:43 <HackEgo> No output.
18:59:52 <\oren\> `perl -e 'print "0x10"==16'
18:59:52 <HackEgo> No output.
19:00:15 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "0x10"==16'
19:00:16 <HackEgo> No output.
19:00:18 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn oct"0x10"," ",hex"0x10"," ",0+"0x10"
19:00:18 <HackEgo> 16 16 0 at -e line 1.
19:00:50 <\oren\> wait why doesn't print work
19:01:05 <wob_jonas> print works fine
19:01:11 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("0x10"==16)."\n"'
19:01:12 <HackEgo> No output.
19:01:14 <wob_jonas> but "0x10"==16 results in false, which is the empty string
19:01:19 <wob_jonas> `perl -e print 1==2
19:01:20 <HackEgo> No output.
19:01:36 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("0x10"==16?:"false")."\n"'
19:01:37 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, near "?:" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
19:01:37 <wob_jonas> so it doesn't print anything (prints the empty string) and then hackego adds "No output." to that
19:01:43 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("0x10"==16?"true":"false")."\n"'
19:01:44 <HackEgo> false
19:02:24 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("0x10"+0?"true":"false")."\n"'
19:02:25 <HackEgo> false
19:02:34 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "0x10"+0."\n"'
19:02:35 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "0."\n"" \ (Missing operator before "\n"?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "0."\n"" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
19:02:43 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("0x10"+0)."\n"'
19:02:44 <HackEgo> 0
19:03:00 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("010"+0)."\n"'
19:03:01 <HackEgo> 10
19:03:13 <\oren\> ok so perl always converts using decimal
19:03:30 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes
19:03:37 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("1e3"+0)."\n"'
19:03:38 <HackEgo> 1000
19:03:52 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("1.3"+0)."\n"'
19:03:53 <HackEgo> 1.3
19:03:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: if you want to convert using octal or hex, you use the oct function
19:04:11 <\oren\> coreection it always uses %g
19:04:21 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no, not really
19:04:28 <wob_jonas> it's more complicated than that
19:05:23 <wob_jonas> for one, if it's a perl where IV is 64-bit, then it scans 64-bit signed AND unsigned integers exactly to integers,
19:06:11 <wob_jonas> secondly, it doesn't scan hexadecimal floating points even if the C library scanf does,
19:06:22 <wob_jonas> and it also scans nans differently from libc
19:07:30 <wob_jonas> there are probably more differences that I don't recall
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19:08:52 <rdococ> 128-bit
19:09:06 <\oren\> oh now I remember the other thing from php
19:09:14 <\oren\> "61529519452809720693702583126814" == "61529519452809720000000000000000"
19:09:20 <wob_jonas> also obviously it uses %lg for floating point usually, or rarely %Lg if perl is compiled that way
19:09:32 <\oren\> because it converts both strings to floats
19:10:17 <\oren\> that was the thing. PHP converts strings to floats even when BOTH operands are strings
19:10:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: always numeric comparison might be better than converting only if it's a string
19:10:47 <wob_jonas> it makes the comparison more associative
19:10:53 <wob_jonas> you use it for numeric comparison
19:11:27 <\oren\> I guess that's why php has strcmp()
19:12:00 <rdococ> ...Types are odd.
19:12:11 <\oren\> at which point why not just write c++ and make everything an auto
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19:22:21 <\oren\> hmm maybe what we need is to have ==, eq, and ===
19:23:45 <wob_jonas> no, what you need is to only ever compare things if they're of the same type (or a nullptr_t with any pointer or smart pointer) and when you know what type they are
19:24:08 <wob_jonas> because if you compare things of different types, you get surprising non-associative behavior
19:24:49 <\oren\> wob_jonas: good idea, so "100" == 100 would result in ERROR
19:25:19 <\oren\> just leave it as a nonexistent operator
19:25:53 <wob_jonas> \oren\: the tricky case is that you can have two int64s and a double such that the two integers are unequal but the double is equal to both of them
19:26:12 <wob_jonas> at least if you compare them the way C compares them, not the way perl compares them
19:26:59 <rdococ> Now we're comparing comparison operators.
19:27:03 <\oren\> yeah maybe have a special operator for that
19:27:08 <rdococ> Metacomparsion.
19:27:24 <\oren\> =meta=
19:27:29 <wob_jonas> nah, just overload == for that
19:28:03 <APic> =]
19:28:10 <APic> =×rnd()?
19:28:14 <\oren\> well == doesn't have the same type as eq
19:28:57 <\oren\> one is a bool()(number, number) the other is a bool()(string,string)
19:29:25 <wob_jonas> nah, that's a stupid C++ism
19:29:29 <wob_jonas> in C, comparisons return an int
19:29:45 <wob_jonas> and that's how it should have behaved in C++ too, but strostroup broke it from the start and now it's too late to fix
19:29:46 <APic> 🙌
19:29:48 <APic> C > C++
19:29:55 <APic> Good old Bjarne.
19:30:13 <wob_jonas> so now comparison operators work differently on builtin types in C and C++
19:30:19 <\oren\> ugh
19:30:41 <rdococ> is there any C++ standard with C's comparisons?
19:31:26 <wob_jonas> rdococ: just put in some + prefixes, like +(x==y) to get the C-like behavior
19:31:42 <wob_jonas> works both in C and C++
19:32:01 <wob_jonas> except in very ancient pre-ansi C that doesn't have a prefix + operator
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19:32:36 <wob_jonas> you can use the venus prefix 0+ instead if you are concerned with ancient compatibility
19:32:44 <APic> =]
19:33:07 <\oren\> wob_jonas: in my font venus has a belly button
19:33:38 <wob_jonas> \oren\: um, the 0+ is actually venus's mirror. it should show the reader inside, not venus.
19:34:56 <APic> My 0 always has a / through it
19:35:11 <APic> (Except once when i tried out Inconsolidata or something like that)
19:38:07 <\oren\> wob_jonas: Really? a mirror?
19:38:31 <wob_jonas> a hand-held mirror, I think
19:38:34 <wob_jonas> but I might be mistaken
19:38:40 <rdococ> er
19:38:48 * APic has a good Card.
19:48:58 <\oren\> APic: which font are you using?
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20:07:52 <Slereah> Hey folks
20:11:37 <APic> \oren\: Terminus.
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20:42:40 <\oren\> I guess I prefer dotted 0
20:44:25 <\oren\> of course, in some fonts even () can be confused for 0
20:45:29 <DHeadshot> Idea: A font where EVERYTHING looks like a 0!
20:47:00 * DHeadshot loads up fontstructor...
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20:50:39 <\oren\> '"`‘’′ is a problem too
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21:01:08 <\oren\> Oo0
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23:29:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51833&oldid=51807 * Challenger5 * (+73)
23:29:53 <boily> `wisdom
23:29:55 <HackEgo> trunc//The trunc and truncf functions (of C99 and C++11) are actually supported by the MS compiler (starting from the 2013), only strangely undocumented.
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23:36:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51834&oldid=51447 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+207)
23:36:45 <boily> `5
23:36:47 <HackEgo> 1/3:1235) <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times [...] <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying \ 654) <zzo38> Even the Spanish Inquisition is in this game. <ais523> zzo38: was it unexpected? <zzo38> Kind of... \ 270) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start roll
23:37:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51835&oldid=51834 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-2)
23:39:48 <shachaf> boily: Why `5 without `n?
23:40:00 <boily> `n
23:40:01 <HackEgo> 2/3:ing forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream) \ 632) <elliott> right: you didn't find out you were wrong, just right in a way we failed to consider. <elliott> if only ev
23:40:17 <boily> helloochaf. I'm not quite used yet to that newfangled technological gimmick.
23:40:22 <boily> `n
23:40:23 <HackEgo> 3/3:ery wrong person could be so lucky \ 233) <oklopol> zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that.
23:41:27 <shachaf> `5 w
23:41:32 <HackEgo> 1/1:sftm//SFTM is the Science Fiction Theory of Mail. \ but//But is an hth derivative. \ myndzi//myndzi used to keep us all on our feet. \ york//York used to be known as Amsterdam. \ døsthiswork//no
23:43:55 <boily> sftm?
23:44:06 <boily> seems fungot to me?
23:44:07 <fungot> boily: because you could have a try
23:44:16 <boily> fungot: sounds about right.
23:44:17 <fungot> boily: ( recently i have absolutely no prior experience with either before i tried to do
23:45:36 <wob_jonas> fungot, how many heads do you have?
23:45:36 <fungot> wob_jonas: where is pika? ( f) ( f x
23:46:26 <boily> wellob_jonas. fungot's anatomy is uncountable hth
23:46:27 <fungot> boily: or one of the games, so that anyone with half an ounce of nerdliness in them is the best trivial polymorphism of bf that makes it more realistic.
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00:13:08 <sdhand> evening #esoteric
00:13:13 <sdhand> well technically morning
00:13:15 <sdhand> what's good?
00:14:01 <wob_jonas> evening
00:14:03 <boily> sdhellond. there's a Great Debate at the office about Java 9.
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00:14:32 <wob_jonas> what office? I don't follow who works where
00:14:59 <wob_jonas> and what's the debate about?
00:15:15 <boily> my job. we were discussing if it's gonna be worth it to upgrade stuff to the next version, breakage, javafx, maven...
00:15:25 <wob_jonas> is Rust involved too?
00:15:36 <boily> nah, we're not hip enough for that :/
00:15:41 <wob_jonas> hehe
00:15:57 <shachaf> boily: scrap maven, use bazel hth
00:16:07 <wob_jonas> I think we have some Java guys over at the software room
00:16:35 <boily> shachaf: I wish, but I like maven and we use it.
00:16:47 <shachaf> hmm
00:16:50 <shachaf> is maven good?
00:16:59 <wob_jonas> here we only have C++ and C# and python and lots more
00:17:27 <wob_jonas> I don't get what they like in C# though
00:17:34 <boily> quite pretty good, I say. a bit inscrutable and verbose at times, but everything is very predictable.
00:18:09 <wob_jonas> what's a maven? is that like a raven?
00:18:27 <wob_jonas> one that says nevemmome?
00:20:12 <boily> C# is the exact same as Java, but more.
00:20:32 <wob_jonas> more in what sense?
00:21:03 <boily> it has True Generic Types Without [EXPLÉTIF] Type Erasure, for once.
00:21:15 <shachaf> wob_jonas: you should probably use bazel for all those languages hth
00:21:23 * boily really hates type erasure
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00:22:04 <shachaf> type erasure is the best
00:22:10 <sleffy> oooh did someone say Rust? Did someone say Rust?
00:22:11 <sleffy> I sensed Rust
00:22:13 <sleffy> Someone said Rust
00:22:21 <sleffy> aw
00:22:35 <sleffy> nvm
00:22:49 <wob_jonas> boily: do you mean generics where you can prove the compiler that your code is typesafe?
00:23:03 <wob_jonas> sleffy: yes, I'm interested in rust
00:23:21 <shachaf> boily: You know what's scow? Covariant mutable arrays.
00:23:39 <sleffy> wob_jonas, then why aren't you on MozNet/#rust? D:
00:24:16 <wob_jonas> sleffy: I'm on mozilla/#rust-beginner sometimes
00:24:28 <sleffy> also rust-offtopic
00:24:31 <boily> wob_jonas: yes, and that all information available at compile time is also available at runtime. as far as the JVM knows, there is absolutely no difference between eg. List<String> and List<?> and List, which drives me nuts.
00:24:54 <boily> shachaf: very scow.
00:25:00 <wob_jonas> boily: I see
00:25:14 <shachaf> Eiffel is arguably even more scow than that.
00:25:23 <shachaf> It has covariant function arguments, doesn't it?
00:25:43 <sleffy> "scow (noun): a wide-beamed sailing dinghy."
00:27:08 <wob_jonas> boily: JVM doesn't matter. what does the java *compiler* know about those types? I mean, you can write crazy type proofs in haskell, even with phantom types, and most of the info disappears by the time the compiler outputs stuff.
00:29:41 <sleffy> boily, curiosity: why do you care what type information is available at runtime?
00:31:26 <boily> wob_jonas: compiling will make a difference between List<String> and List<Integer>, but everything between < and > disappear at runtime. it is very annoying when you write a class with templates, as the actual concrete type disappears at runtime, and you can't do stuff like 'new T();' inside a method declared in 'class Something<T>'.
00:32:14 <shachaf> This seems like a complaint about language semantics that doesn't have much to do with runtime.
00:32:22 <wob_jonas> boily: so C# is different in that?
00:32:38 <boily> yeah, C# retains the whole thing.
00:33:32 <boily> sleffy: you can write code that abstracts over the contents of a structure (List<T>), but not code that abstracts over the structure itself (F<T>). or you may, but it becomes unwieldy, smells bad, and isn't aligned with feng shui.
00:33:58 <sleffy> boily, so you're complaining about a lack of higher-kinded types? I don't understand how that maps to type erasure.
00:36:05 * boily tries to find a hole in sleffy's argument
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01:15:35 <boily> I accept that I effected a bucco-pedal manœuvre there... will have to rethink my argument and position over that.
01:15:45 <boily> `w
01:15:47 <HackEgo> inory//Inorically, inory is when you say something is irony that really isn't. Someone who does this is an inorite.
01:16:01 <wob_jonas> bucco-pedal?
01:16:14 <wob_jonas> is that like a backpedal?
01:16:17 <sleffy> wob_jonas, https://archive.org/stream/biostor-97775/biostor-97775_djvu.txt
01:16:22 <sleffy> Seems to be a genus of something or other
01:16:28 <shachaf> `cwlprits inory
01:16:40 <HackEgo> oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈]
01:17:13 <boily> wob_jonas: foot in mouth hth
01:17:14 <shachaf> `dowg inory
01:17:23 <HackEgo> 7183:2016-03-10 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/Moron./Someone who does this is an inorite./\' wisdom/inory \ 7182:2016-03-10 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn inory/Inorically, inory is when you say something is irony that really isn\'t. Moron. \ 7181:2016-03-10 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn inory/Inorically, inory is when you say something is irony that really isn\'t
01:18:02 <wob_jonas> `? inory
01:18:04 <HackEgo> Inorically, inory is when you say something is irony that really isn't. Someone who does this is an inorite.
01:18:07 <wob_jonas> `? ionry
01:18:09 <HackEgo> ionry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:18:22 <wob_jonas> `? ion refinary
01:18:23 <HackEgo> ion refinary? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:18:24 <wob_jonas> `? camtim
01:18:26 <HackEgo> camtim? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:18:36 <boily> camtim?
01:19:08 <wob_jonas> boily: a HHGG thingy
01:20:41 <boily> tdh.
01:21:21 <sleffy> today I realized the language spoken in this channel is esoteric in and of itself
01:22:00 <wob_jonas> sleffy: yeah, communities tend to have injokes and other jargon they use
01:22:04 <wob_jonas> can be hard to understand
01:27:43 <shachaf> Can you believe it? hppavilion[1] made a scow and rude wisdom entry, and oerjan made it good.
01:27:51 <shachaf> Except only the last sentence of it is good.
01:28:24 <wob_jonas> sleffy: if it gets too obscure, feel free to ask, and then we'll laugh at you
01:28:53 <sleffy> wob_jonas, of course. I would hate to break tradition
01:29:02 <shachaf> I wouldn't laugh at you for asking.
01:29:05 <sleffy> `? scow
01:29:06 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
01:29:12 <sleffy> hah
01:29:24 <shachaf> "the scow of X" means something like "the worst speciment of X"
01:29:32 <shachaf> But it can also be used as an adjective and so on.
01:29:37 <shachaf> The etymology is "garbage scow".
01:29:50 <sleffy> Neat.
01:41:46 <alercah> guys the solution is to just use go
01:41:50 <alercah> which has no generics of any kind
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01:41:55 <alercah> they're the most requested feature!
01:43:05 <wob_jonas> alercah: it has all-runtime dynamic typing though
01:52:04 <boily> genericity! genericity! genericity!
02:01:15 <alercah> wob_jonas: what no
02:01:23 <alercah> it has static typing
02:01:58 <wob_jonas> alercah: it has these typeclass thingies, called interfaces, resolved at runtime, like java stuff
02:02:04 <wob_jonas> that's dynamic typing
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02:10:43 <sleffy> oh no. not the dynamic typing
02:11:04 <\oren\> all of human evolution has led to this greatness
02:11:06 <\oren\> http://www.pcgamer.com/eve-onlines-latest-war-is-being-fought-over-anime/
02:13:44 <\oren\> also, I am attempting to make a special preprocessor for C that add features, like watfor did for fortran
02:18:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Armok628 * New user account
02:18:37 <boily> he\\oren\. that is glorious.
02:18:48 <sleffy> I am trying to moosh LISP and PROLOG into one VM.
02:18:54 <sleffy> This is not going well.
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02:48:17 <shachaf> Cale: Can eigenvectors be generalized to other categories?
02:48:22 <shachaf> I feel like we may have talked about this before.
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03:34:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51836&oldid=51831 * Armok628 * (+286) /* Introductions */
03:34:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51837&oldid=51829 * Armok628 * (+564) Added simple Common Lisp implementation
03:51:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Silberjoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51838&oldid=50828 * Quintopia * (-2) /* Syntax */ proper bullets
03:52:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:CatIsFluffy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51839 * Hppavilion1 * (+120) /* Question */ new section
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06:03:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:JHM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51840 * JHM * (+17) Created page with "Hi, I'm JungHwan."
06:05:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51841&oldid=50876 * JHM * (+287) /* x = 0 */
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08:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> "He once put a satellite in geosynchronous orbit... around Mars" (the most interesting man in the world)
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09:12:58 <Jafet> impressive, seeing as there are no geosynchronous orbits around mars
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09:13:55 <thenewguy> Jafet: /that's the joke/
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09:20:18 <Jafet> s/impressive/that's funny/
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11:39:51 <boily> `w
11:39:54 <HackEgo> postorder//Postorder is the same as Polish notation, since Post was Polish. Not to be confused with reverse Polish notation, which is postfix.
11:44:39 <boily> Polish is a hard language to learn for non-native speakers, and Post had trouble communicating with his peers.
11:49:38 <Jafet> perhaps post should have used correspondence, then
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12:22:45 <\oren\> `w
12:22:46 <HackEgo> tanec//Why would there be a Tanec, that's ridiculous!
12:22:57 <\oren\> `w
12:22:59 <HackEgo> people who taneb is not//elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
12:23:22 <\oren\> `w
12:23:23 <HackEgo> zomgmodules//ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
12:23:27 <\oren\> `w
12:23:29 <HackEgo> admn//admn is the curse of people with cdop.
12:23:35 <\oren\> `w
12:23:37 <HackEgo> wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf
12:24:12 <\oren\> `? cdop
12:24:14 <HackEgo> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
12:24:18 <boily> Jafellot, he\\oren\.
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13:23:42 <wob_jonas> Do we have a fudged dice command here? You know, one that lets you roll a dice or draw lots from a set of choices, and normally appears to be fair, with a clear source code, but there's a separate command you can give in private message in advance to make it give the choice you want and then clean up the source code afterwards?
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16:18:08 <rdococ> `tell
16:18:09 <HackEgo> I think you mean "@tell " instead?
16:18:13 <rdococ> @help tell
16:18:13 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
16:18:26 <rdococ> @tell LKoen I think you don't even learn to think anymore.
16:18:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:18:45 <rdococ> @tell LKoen It was taken from the curriculum and replaced with boring stuff.
16:18:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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18:10:14 <int-e> shachaf: this is all your fault
18:10:38 <shachaf> ?
18:10:39 <int-e> (I bought another humble bundle :-P)
18:11:01 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, SSR?
18:11:26 <int-e> yes, that.
18:13:50 <int-e> but maybe 11 sausages are enough for a start
18:15:00 <shachaf> Is that past the first area?
18:15:06 <shachaf> I guess it probably isn't.
18:18:25 <int-e> no, everything I've done still fits on the screen http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr.png
18:19:28 <int-e> it's enough to get a taste of the game.
18:22:16 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr.png <-- oh nein, ich habe schon wieder ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. (aber nicht zum Vollpreis, gibt grad ein humble bundle)
18:22:43 <shachaf> Wrong channel?
18:22:59 <int-e> yes.
18:23:07 <shachaf> oh nein
18:23:21 <shachaf> ein Hipster-Spiel
18:23:35 <int-e> it was intended for a much smaller audience
18:23:46 <int-e> but I guess it's fine here as well :P
18:24:19 <int-e> being a hipster game is the only thing that can explain its price :-P
18:24:35 <shachaf> Why should the price be low?
18:25:30 <int-e> why indeed if people still buy it
18:25:44 <shachaf> Well, clearly they don't.
18:26:01 <int-e> :-P
18:26:03 <shachaf> They wait until it's part of ein humble bundle.
18:26:39 <shachaf> Eins Zwei Polizei
18:26:40 <int-e> some do
18:33:06 <int-e> fwiw, I did not, actually, expect to find that game in a humble bundle any time soon.
18:36:34 <shachaf> Of course.
18:36:48 <shachaf> You were waiting until the price goes down, and willing to wait indefinitely.
18:38:57 <int-e> quite right
18:43:02 <shachaf> `? int-e
18:43:04 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans.
18:44:55 <shachaf> `le/rn_append int-e/Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
18:44:56 <HackEgo> No output.
18:45:08 <shachaf> `le//rn_append int-e//Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
18:45:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
18:45:24 <olsner> sv:Hen har köpt ett hipsterspel.
18:45:36 <shachaf> not enough "ge" tdnh
18:45:46 <olsner> yeah, it's better in the original German
18:46:01 <olsner> no idea why the wisdom is in swedish
18:46:37 <shachaf> olsner: I suspect it's because of the word "inte" in the first sentence.
18:46:50 <olsner> perhaps
18:47:01 <shachaf> Maybe he wants a limerick written about him.
18:47:06 <shachaf> You have to be Swedish for that.
18:47:44 <olsner> in that case, you wouldn't want the inte since that makes it say he's not Swedish
18:48:15 <shachaf> Are you sure it doesn't say he's into Swedes?
18:48:27 <olsner> yes
18:49:23 <rdococ> hi
18:49:27 <shachaf> Please write a Swedish-language limerick about int-e.
18:50:31 <int-e> `quote ꙮ
18:50:33 <HackEgo> 1134) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
18:50:46 <shachaf> `quote edible
18:50:47 <HackEgo> 1311) <Jafet> an #esoteric-dwelling swede / was mistaken for edible feed / “with you,” said a sicko / “our lanttulaatikko / would be very tasty indeed!”
18:55:38 <olsner> oh, it involves swedes and rutabagas too, punny
18:58:48 <shachaf> olsner: Are you playing SSR as well?
18:58:58 <olsner> what's SSR?
18:59:36 <olsner> I might have played some small-screen rendering, but presto browsers are rare these days
18:59:40 <shachaf> Stephen's Sausage Roll
18:59:53 <shachaf> Or Selective Serotonin Reuptake?
19:00:55 <olsner> hmm, isn't it rather the inhibition that's selective, than the serotonin reuptake?
19:01:14 <shachaf> Or is it the serotonin that's selective?
19:03:30 <rdococ> yæy
19:03:50 <shachaf> Maybe you can just stop it, rdococ.
19:04:25 <rdococ> All I did was say "hi" and "yæy", and it was in the span of 20 minutes. Give me a break, shachaf.
19:04:35 <shachaf> no
19:04:48 <rdococ> This is ridiculous.
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19:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> there are people here who play mtg right
19:38:52 <Phantom_Hoover> can someone check for me when a particular card was first released?
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19:48:00 <shachaf> Doesn't Gatherer tell you that?
20:04:23 <Cale> shachaf: Can scalar multiplication be generalised to other categories?
20:07:18 <FireFly> int-e: was für ein Spiel ist das?
20:07:50 <shachaf> Cale: I don't know! Can it?
20:08:07 <shachaf> Is it a natural transformation of some sort?
20:08:14 <int-e> FireFly: ask shachaf :P
20:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, not that i saw but who knows
20:09:08 <shachaf> I suspect there are several people here who could check that for you.
20:10:09 <FireFly> shachaf: was für ein Spiel ist SSR?
20:11:27 <shachaf> FireFly: Selektive Serotonin-Wiederaufnahme hth
20:11:38 <shachaf> Wiederaufnahmespiel
20:11:52 <Cale> shachaf: Well, it definitely makes sense to talk about eigenvalues/eigenvectors for module homomorphisms
20:12:13 <Cale> shachaf: More generally, you can probably do something relevant in any Abelian category.
20:12:17 <shachaf> Eigenvectors are a generalization of fixed points.
20:12:38 <shachaf> In that they aren't exactly a fixed point but they are up to scalar multiplication.
20:12:50 <shachaf> Is there another notion of "fixed point up to [simple operation]"?
20:16:26 <shachaf> FireFly: SSR ist Stephen's Sausage Roll hdhg
20:16:40 <FireFly> Isee
20:16:50 <shachaf> ich nicht sprachen deutsche
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20:19:18 <izabera> telnet mapscii.me
20:19:51 <\oren\> SSR? Soviet socialist republic
20:19:59 <shachaf> Oh, good point.
20:20:37 <shachaf> ССР
20:21:36 <\oren\> USSR is therefore ambiguous between ukrainian and union
20:21:58 <\oren\> but in russian it is totally biguous
20:22:20 <shachaf> What about in Ukrainian?
20:23:44 <\oren\> I bet it's still biguous
20:26:18 <\oren\> the main difference I'm aware of between russian and ukrainian is that Г is pronounced more like H and not like G
20:26:37 <\oren\> hence russian Lugansk is ukrainian Luhansk
20:27:17 <\oren\> I wonder how the georgian ssr is affected
20:28:20 <\oren\> Грузинская Советская Социалистическая Республика
20:29:11 <\oren\> however საქართველოს საბჭოთა სოციალისტური რესპუბლიკა is entirely different
20:31:19 <\oren\> ukrainian
20:31:22 <\oren\> Грузинська Радянська Соціалістична Республіка
20:33:07 <\oren\> sotsialistichna instead of sotsialisticheskaya
20:34:05 <\oren\> and radyanska instead of sovetskaya
20:40:23 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
20:40:40 <\oren\> so I guess in ukrainian it's the SRSR,
20:41:17 <\oren\> or CPCP
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20:48:20 <wob_jonas> http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3473 -- unlike Arcadia, Faye is probably telling the truth here
20:48:41 <shachaf> scowcontent
20:51:34 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: yes, I play M:tG (sort of). please ask your question.
20:52:04 <shachaf> I think there are many people here to who like Magic: The Gathering but don't play.
20:52:50 <shachaf> Taneb neither likes nor plays, but soon he'll be visiting California and I'll give him a bunch of free cards.
20:54:02 <wob_jonas> huhwhat?
20:54:05 <int-e> well the M:tG Turing machine is quite a strong selling point.
20:54:19 <shachaf> Is it?
20:54:25 <wob_jonas> doesn't like M:tG but you're giving him free cards? why?
20:54:28 <shachaf> Turing completeness, as I've said recently, is scow.
20:54:43 <int-e> But I would like to suggest that the rules of a game are unnecessarily complex for achieving TC-ness. :P
20:54:53 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Well, what else can I do with them? I don't have a wood stove.
20:55:09 <int-e> Clearly we need an M:tG tarpit.
20:55:26 <shachaf> int-e: One of the rules of the game says that if you get into an infinite loop, it ends in a draw.
20:55:28 <wob_jonas> shachaf: give them to someone who likes M:tG?
20:55:36 <shachaf> So the game is actually undecidable.
20:55:57 <shachaf> I'm sure Taneb would start to like it if he had cards.
20:56:09 <shachaf> Anyway he's not really coming to California as far as I know. So there's no hurry.
20:56:14 <int-e> shachaf: so that gives anyone an excuse for not playing it rationally
20:56:33 <Taneb> Travelling a third of the way across the world does cost a fair bit of money, after all
20:56:42 <Taneb> You should have given me them last time I was in California
20:56:46 <int-e> (my thoughts were meandering along the shores of rationality and undecidability last night, somehow)
20:57:03 <wob_jonas> shachaf: send them to him by post? that's cheaper than having him travel to California in person.
20:57:03 <shachaf> That was a long time ago, I think.
20:57:18 <int-e> and I mean "rationality" in the game theoretic "rational agent" sense.
20:57:22 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you want me to send you some Magic: the Gathering cards by post?
20:57:27 <shachaf> Maybe some basic lands?
20:57:32 <shachaf> A few commons?
20:57:42 <Taneb> I don't really care, if I'm being honest
20:58:07 <shachaf> I wonder how much my cards are worth.
20:58:24 <shachaf> I had some cards that went for ~$50 back when they were in Standard, but they rotated out long ago.
21:00:27 <wob_jonas> I don't play M:tG rationally, but the infinite loop rule doesn't have much to do that.
21:01:32 <int-e> uh, this is old news... wtf?! http://www.geek.com/games/black-lotus-magic-the-gatherings-most-famous-card-sells-for-27302-1577939/
21:02:02 <shachaf> What?
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21:06:00 <int-e> I thought I knew that this now-useless card was highly sought after. Well, I had no idea.
21:06:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: well it's an Alpha Black Lotus. It's not something you need even if you're playing Vintage, because an Unlimited Black Lotus, of which there are much more out there, works just as well. It's a collectible item.
21:06:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: how is that now-useless? it's the most useful card ever. it goes to basically every Vintage deck, no matter how it tries to win.
21:06:59 <wob_jonas> Black Lotus was always the most expensive M:tG card.
21:07:48 <int-e> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9764 is funnier
21:08:06 <int-e> So is vintage played much...
21:08:12 * int-e shrugs, not really caring.
21:08:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, it's not played much, because it's a very expensive format
21:08:31 <wob_jonas> you don't have many people who can buy the necessary cards for it
21:08:38 <wob_jonas> you need a Black Lotus and lots of other expensive cards
21:09:27 <wob_jonas> also it's sort of unfun, because the power level is basically unchecked
21:09:41 <wob_jonas> so it will always be played with only very broken decks
21:09:46 <shachaf> wob_jonas: useful? it only gives you three karma and then you have to sacrifice it!
21:10:05 <shachaf> sounds scow to me
21:10:19 <shachaf> s/then // , to be more accurate
21:10:31 <wob_jonas> it's the format where no cards are banned for power level if they were originally released by Wizards and intended to be tournament legal (a few cards are banned for reasons other than power)
21:10:49 <int-e> http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/14031/20141015/this-is-the-reason-the-black-lotus-is-worth-30000-and-why-that-magic-the-gathering-youtuber-is-right-to-be-excited.htm explains a 4 card combo to win on the first term
21:11:08 <int-e> (not likely to materialise but having 4 mana on the first turn is a lot)
21:11:15 <shachaf> Black Lotus is so good that even Lion's Eye Diamond is a good card.
21:11:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it gives you three mana for free, even in turn 1. that gives so much speed advantage it would decide many games even in a slower environment, and definitely does in Vintage which is a very fast environment, since you can just put the most broken cards in your deck, ones that don't need many mana.
21:12:07 <shachaf> wob_jonas: nonsense, it's not free, you have to sacrifice your best card for it
21:12:53 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's not a good argument that the card is not good because you have to use the best card of your deck to use it
21:13:27 <wob_jonas> it's the best card of your deck, it'd be circular to argue that it's bad because it's your best card
21:13:45 <shachaf> sacrificing your best permanent is obviously a bad idea
21:13:51 <wob_jonas> that's like saying that the Moon is better than the Sun because the Moon gives light in the night when it's dark so you need the light much more
21:13:52 <shachaf> it's not called a permanent for nothing
21:14:06 <shachaf> That's a very good point.
21:14:10 <shachaf> The moon is much more useful.
21:15:01 <int-e> Wait, any time you play an instant... I can have a card-searching ability on the stack and then get three (mono-)colored mana?
21:15:16 <int-e> but I can't play it as a mana ability
21:15:28 <wob_jonas> int-e: huh what's the context?
21:15:32 * int-e is looking at the Lion's Eye Diamond
21:15:59 <int-e> and it says "Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant."
21:16:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh, that's because without that clause, it would be a mana ability
21:16:24 <wob_jonas> and you can activate mana abilities in times other than when you get priority,
21:16:26 <int-e> as I just said
21:16:44 <wob_jonas> specifically when you have to pay the cost for a spell, or when an effect asks you to pay an optional cost
21:16:59 <wob_jonas> yes, it's a tough restriction in that context
21:17:03 <wob_jonas> would be way overpowered without that
21:17:06 <shachaf> @google "lion's eye diamond" super great combo that wins the game real good
21:17:07 <lambdabot> http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/181840-led-griselbrand-a-more-resilient-turn-1-combo-deck
21:17:07 <lambdabot> Title: LED Griselbrand - A more resilient turn 1 combo deck - Developing (Legacy) - ...
21:17:08 <wob_jonas> but it's still overpowered this way
21:17:26 <wob_jonas> basically, you can still spend that mana on activated abilities of permanents, and lots of other things
21:17:53 <wob_jonas> but even with such a serious restriction, three mana NOW for a card is too good
21:21:18 <int-e> argh, flashback.
21:22:18 <\oren\> there is aparently a gogle docs worm now
21:22:39 <\oren\> congrats google, you're now as secure as microsoft outlook
21:22:59 <int-e> wob_jonas: flashback turns the discarded cards into a benefit. I had a small chance of seeing this.
21:23:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, that's one way of using it too
21:23:36 <wob_jonas> possibly the best
21:23:49 <wob_jonas> (depending on the format and environment)
21:25:40 <DHeadshot> \oren\: Does this mean my grandpa's got the most secure email system, because he still uses Pegasus and no virus-writer can be bothered with it?
21:25:54 <\oren\> probly
21:25:58 <\oren\> I use alpine
21:26:56 <DHeadshot> I use the HTC thing on my 'phone, plus the gmail app it has which was last updated in 2011...
21:27:10 <wob_jonas> \oren\: does alpine try to open an attachment with a preferred viewer application chosen from a large table of file types if you press a key on an attachment, without asking your permission to use a particular application?
21:27:50 <wob_jonas> because that's an easy way an email program or browser can be insecure, if it lets you open files with a hundred other applications that are supposedly secure but inevitably some of them will be insecure
21:36:35 <\oren\> you have to press a key for confimation after it tells you what program it's going to use
21:37:15 <\oren\> of course, I have it set to just save attachment
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I see
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22:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> wob_jonas, well the question was when hanweir, the writhing township came out, though the question's not so important now
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22:21:32 <wob_jonas> Phantom: that one is a meld card, so it definitely came out for the Eldritch Moon set, which was released in 2016-07.
22:21:56 <wob_jonas> meld cards didn't exist before that set, so it's not a reprint of anything
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22:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> right, it seemed recent from the dates of the rulings
22:23:25 <Phantom_Hoover> but there wasn't a date for the actual card
22:30:22 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Hanweir, the Writhing
22:30:25 <HackEgo> Hanweir, the Writhing Township \ Legendary Creature -- Eldrazi Ooze \ 7/4 \ Trample, haste \ Whenever Hanweir, the Writhing Township attacks, create two 3/2 colorless Eldrazi Horror creature tokens that are tapped and attacking. \ [Melds from Hanweir Battlements and Hanweir Garrison.] \ EMN-R
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23:03:22 <ais523> does anyone know of a programming language with an NP-complete lexer?
23:03:48 <ais523> I'm working on one which I think might be able to solve /both/ 3SAT and subset sum, in different parts of the lexer
23:05:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think I know such a language.
23:05:31 <ais523> actually, PPCG has really helped my esolanging
23:05:35 <ais523> I used to view parsers as unimportant
23:05:41 <ais523> but they're such an untapped vein for esoprogramming
23:05:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think it would be rather unlikely to get exactly NP-complete. I mean, if you make a lexer that doesn't try to be efficient, then what stops it at NP?
23:06:01 <ais523> the ability to lex the program by brute force
23:07:08 <ais523> the language itself may possibly be uncomputable, not sure on that yet
23:07:34 <ais523> but it's also meant to be practically useful
23:07:50 <ais523> (in the sense that you can write a language with a halting detector command, and have the implementation fail or infinite loop in some cases)
23:08:03 <ais523> (and yet the halting detector is still useful in the cases where it works)
23:09:03 <wob_jonas> halting detector => sure, M:tG does that
23:09:22 <ais523> it's not like halting detectors don't exist
23:09:25 <ais523> they just fail in some cases
23:10:19 <wob_jonas> well yes, you can probably make a language with an NP-complete lexer that doesn't seem too strained
23:10:48 <wob_jonas> especially if the input isn't text
23:11:55 <wob_jonas> like, the input is two strings, and is lexed to a sequence of tokens where each token corresponds to a pair of infixes from those two strings, but with different lengths
23:12:33 <wob_jonas> the infixes are ordered in both strings but you can't easily match the two strings to one another because they're variable length
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23:13:17 <wob_jonas> eg. you have a sound file and a transcript (or a kanji string and a kana string), both somewhat ambiguous separately and parsed together.
23:13:27 <wob_jonas> does that make sense?
23:13:32 <ais523> I think so
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23:13:48 <wob_jonas> and then you can make it NP-complete by allowing a large enough Post correspondence problem for it
23:13:57 <ais523> I'm reminded of Post correspondence, which is TC, but that'd be the task of finding a sound file and transcript that correpsonded to each other but were the same file
23:14:07 <wob_jonas> yes, exactly
23:14:22 <ais523> that seems hard because the sound file would be so much larger
23:14:26 <ais523> and yet they have to be the same size
23:14:33 <wob_jonas> and it's realistic because in practical cases it may be difficult to pair them, but only for practical implementation reasons, not for P vs NP reasons
23:14:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: what? they don't have to be the same size
23:15:18 <Jafet> clearly you need someone who talks really fast
23:15:53 <ais523> wob_jonas: in post correspondence, aren't you splitting up the same string two different ways?
23:15:57 <Jafet> what about languages without a well-defined lexing phase?
23:16:12 <ais523> anyway, your example can solve subset sum without these silly requirements, either
23:16:18 <ais523> just have tokens consisting of varying lengths of silence
23:16:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: tokens would be like when you hear 'lead' in the sound file and see "lead" in the text, or 'led' in the sound file and "lead" in the text, or 'led' in the sound file and "led" in the text, or 'worshire' in the sound file and "worchestershire" in the text, or 'doubleyou' in the sound file and "w" in the text
23:16:42 <ais523> Jafet: I guess those would tend to be self-modifying languages
23:16:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: same string two different ways? no
23:16:50 <Jafet> I mean, C++ is one
23:16:56 <wob_jonas> um, let me get an exact definition from my shelf
23:17:27 <ais523> Jafet: with respect to the >> token?
23:17:43 <ais523> INTERCAL's another example where the lexing depends on the parsing
23:17:47 <ais523> at least in C-INTERCAL
23:18:21 <Jafet> I don't think >> itself is NP-hard, but normal identifier disambiguation might be
23:18:51 <ais523> Jafet: oh, I thought you were talking about lexing not being a defined phase
23:18:53 <Jafet> well, that's normally considered not part of lexing
23:18:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the problem I'm thinking of, which may not be PCP, the output is a token string, the problem has for each possible token from the token alphabet has a single corresponding variable length upper string and lower string, and has an upper string and a lower string,
23:19:06 <ais523> as far as I know, C++'s uncomputable parse is a parsing issue, not a lexing issue
23:19:16 <wob_jonas> and the output is correct if when you replace the output with upper or lower strings resp, you get the upper and lower string from the input respectively.
23:19:39 <wob_jonas> so each token (word) has a pronunciation and a spelling, and the input has a catenated pronunciation string and a catenated spelling string that you have to splity
23:20:03 <ais523> PCP is about producing one string using two different sets of words, in such a way that you always choose the corresponding words from each set
23:20:22 <ais523> PCP's also TC rather than being NP-complete
23:20:32 <ais523> so I assume you're thinking of something different in a different complexity class
23:20:42 <shachaf> `? pcp
23:20:44 <HackEgo> PCP refers to probably cyclidine proofs. It is precipitously illogical in many places, but research has shown that PCP is, surprisingly, No Problem.
23:20:46 <wob_jonas> let me see. Post correspondence problem is page 226 in Rónyai–Ivanyos–Szabó. (reads)
23:21:05 <Jafet> `grwp correspondence
23:21:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: you're right. what I was thinking of isn't Post's correspondence problem
23:21:45 <HackEgo> No output.
23:22:01 <wob_jonas> and the one I was thinking of isn't even NP-hard. it's actually polynomially solvable.
23:22:02 <shachaf> `grwp correspondence
23:22:04 <HackEgo> interpreter:An interpreter (Latin "inter-", Old French "prestre") is unofficial correspondence between ordained members of the Church.
23:22:14 <wob_jonas> hmm
23:22:14 <shachaf> `thwackego
23:22:15 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thwackego: not found
23:22:31 <Remavas> `pcr
23:22:32 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pcr: not found
23:22:37 <wob_jonas> how to make an NP-complete one then?
23:22:38 <Remavas> `? pcr
23:22:39 <HackEgo> pcr? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:23:33 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_correspondence_problem says "Not to be confused with the other Post's problem on the existence of incomparable r.e. Turing degrees."
23:23:44 <shachaf> But it's the same Post! Shouldn't it say "Post's other problem"?
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23:25:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, hmm; suppose you have a language where there's no whitespace between tokens
23:25:09 <ais523> and variable names can be declared, becoming tokens
23:25:33 <wob_jonas> yes, and?
23:25:38 <ais523> and say you have a curried function call syntax, so a bunch of variable names in a row is entirely reasonable
23:25:55 <ais523> someone could define a bunch of variables made entirely out of a single letter
23:26:03 <ais523> and now parsing a long row of that letter is the subset sum problem
23:26:38 <ais523> or, well, you can use the same variable twice, not sure if that makes a difference (my guess is no)
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23:27:28 <Jafet> uh subset sum isn't NP-complete in unary
23:27:49 <wob_jonas> (irrelevant: for making multiple variable names in a row valid, curried function call syntax isn't the only good reason: you can have implicit commas like lisp/scheme, or implicit subscript like in metafont)
23:27:57 <ais523> Jafet: subset sum is base-independent
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23:29:06 <ais523> err, incoming netsplit?
23:29:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, Jafet has a valid point there. it's not NP-complete to break your sequence of letter x to given tokens made of given numbers of letter x, because you write the sum in unary then
23:29:23 <ais523> oh, I see, the problem here is about defining n
23:29:30 <ais523> rather than about the actual difficulty of the problem
23:29:51 <ais523> you're in unary, thus it takes 2**n characters to write the problem down
23:30:02 <ais523> and that gives you the exponential time you need to solve it
23:30:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: no
23:30:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: the time to solve is only quadratic in the length of the problem, if you write the problem down in unary
23:30:51 <fizzie> Hmm.
23:30:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I'm saying that "the length of the problem" is artifically increased by writing the numbers in unary
23:31:14 <fizzie> ^raw NICK fungot
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23:31:22 <ais523> which means that the complexity class is "lower" because n is exponentially larger
23:31:34 <fizzie> Unfortunately, there's no way to remove underscores from zemhill. :/
23:31:45 <wob_jonas> yes, so we're back at the original question. how to make a natural-sounding language where lexing is NP-complete.
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23:32:00 <ais523> fizzie: make it so that when you write a joustbot, the . commands get echoed to IRC?
23:32:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: in what order?
23:32:48 <ais523> execution order, I guess? I wasn't being serious though
23:32:58 <wob_jonas> what order among multiple games?
23:33:25 <wob_jonas> the written characters depend on what the other player is (and on polarty)
23:33:44 <wob_jonas> but yes, writing all the . commands would be excessive given how bfjoust works
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23:46:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: what if you can write tokens in any order, the lexer has to find the order of the tokens, and it has to find a Hamilton path in a general digraph, because the tokens somehow constrain which token can follow which other token, but in a general enough way that you can encode basically any digraph.
23:46:59 <ais523> hmm
23:47:15 <ais523> that seems difficult to pull off
23:47:49 <wob_jonas> eg. the input is a set of poem lines, each on one punch card, dropped on the floor, each line of the poem must share a word with the previous line, and the lexer has to reconstruct the poem
23:47:54 <ais523> something like "two adjacent tokens must have at least one character in common" would possibly work? I think you can encode arbitrary graphs (not digraphs) like that
23:48:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that works, at least if you have enough characters
23:48:15 <wob_jonas> not with just 26 characters or so
23:48:26 <wob_jonas> too easy to solve that way
23:48:38 <wob_jonas> that's why I'd say words instead
23:48:49 <wob_jonas> hard to tell if it counts as a "lexer" then
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23:49:37 <wob_jonas> but each statement sharing a word with the previous one isn't such an unnatural requirement for programming, since that word can often be a variable used as input for one and output for the other
23:50:41 <ais523> yes, that's the obvious implication
23:50:45 <ais523> but what do the other words do?
23:51:09 <wob_jonas> other inputs to function called?
23:51:13 <wob_jonas> um, dunno
23:51:15 <wob_jonas> that doesn't really work
23:52:24 <ais523> and why don't they connect together/
23:52:46 <wob_jonas> what don't connect together?
23:52:48 <Jafet> this relates to an old idea I had for a haskell extension, where you could write anything you wanted without brackets as long as there was exactly one well-typed combination
23:53:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: the common words in non-adjacent commands
23:53:25 <ais523> Jafet: I like that
23:53:27 <Jafet> of course, a lexer would use syntactic rather than type constraints
23:53:33 <ais523> did you ever implement it, or was it just an idea?
23:53:59 <shachaf> Jafet: Hmm, this means that adding a new instance can make a program invalid.
23:54:01 <Jafet> I don't think implementing it is trivial, even in haskell2010
23:54:32 <shachaf> Even in Haskell 2010 you can't infer all types.
23:54:39 <Jafet> anyway, this is the kind of thing you invent when you get tired of having to align all your code
23:54:46 <ais523> <shachaf> Jafet: Hmm, this means that adding a new instance can make a program invalid. ← there are plenty of languages where that's true
23:55:02 <shachaf> ais523: But Haskell goes to a lot of trouble to make it not true.
23:55:11 <wob_jonas> I do have vague plans for a syntax that lets you write most (not all) combinations of function calls without parenthesis or other punctuation, but that one is different, it is easy in a computational sense to parse, there's no ambiguity, not even a local one that's resolved later.
23:55:39 <wob_jonas> basically a generalization of the postscript/forth/logo syntax where the parser knows how many argument each function has
23:55:52 <wob_jonas> um, how's that called, of RPN syntax
23:56:05 <ais523> postfix
23:56:10 <wob_jonas> yeah
23:56:12 <wob_jonas> postfix or prefix
23:56:31 <ais523> RPN is a bit ambiguous, it can either refer to postfix notation or to concatenative stack based languages
23:56:37 <shachaf> postfix and prefix would be good vocabulary to use about bug fixes.
23:56:42 <ais523> (the latter aren't strictly postfix because you can screw with the stack)
23:56:52 <wob_jonas> yeah
23:56:59 <ais523> I don't think you can make a prefix stack language, but maybe you can?
23:57:10 <ais523> like, the operands would have to pop operators from the stack rather than the other way round
23:57:12 <Jafet> so I wonder if a lexer is already NP-complete if keywords can overlap each other (to a greater extent than, say, > and >> tokens overlap in C)
23:57:21 <Jafet> it probably is
23:57:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: well, the interpreter can just read the tokens from right to left
23:57:46 <ais523> yes, but I mean, in a way that stack manipulation is reasonable
23:57:56 <ais523> + : 2 3 4, where : is duplicate, should result in 9
23:58:06 <ais523> but what does + 2 : 3 4 do?
23:58:58 <ais523> let's see; clearly + 2 produces an "add 2" value
23:59:09 <Jafet> wob_jonas: a number of internal formats (for things like video game scenarios) use lists of comma-separated tokens, which are parsed this way
23:59:16 <ais523> and giving it another argument pops two operators from the stack (the add 2 and the operator below) and gives 2 + the argument to the operator below
23:59:45 <ais523> so + : 2 3 4 → + + 2 3 4 → + +2 3 4 → +5 4 → (give 9 to the operator below)
23:59:50 <Jafet> naturally, some of those formats use only decimal numbers as tokens, which makes the code impossible to read
00:00:08 <ais523> so + 2 : 3 4 → +2 : 3 4 → +2 +2 3 4 → (give 7 and then 4 to the operator below)
00:00:10 <Jafet> because you don't know which numbers correspond to functions or arguments
00:00:30 <ais523> that seems to be distinctly different from the stack generalisation of postfix
00:00:44 <ais523> + 2 : 3 is equivalent to 7
00:00:51 <ais523> and that does seem to make some amount of logic when you think about it
00:01:29 <wob_jonas> hmm
00:02:17 <ais523> in postfix notation, the operands are all nilary, the operators therefore have to have higher arity (some can be unary but at least one must be binary)
00:02:42 <ais523> in prefix notation, with nilary operators, the operands therefore become polyary, consuming a number of operators based on how many operands those operators are missing
00:03:02 <wob_jonas> has anyone tried to write artistic obfuscated code in terminfo definition, which is a non-eso language, especially the part with the percent escapes stack language that terminfo uses to turn a command and list of arguments to a term-specific output string?
00:03:17 <wob_jonas> I'm just reminded to this because it's a stack-based language
00:03:22 <wob_jonas> well, sort of
00:03:29 <wob_jonas> it's a simple general purpose language with a stack too
00:03:44 <wob_jonas> definitely stack-based because many commands take arguments from the stack
00:03:58 <wob_jonas> in the sense of postscript or forth
00:06:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: isn't that sort an APL-like syntax, where tokens can denote values, functions, or operators (which are high-precedence functions), functions know how many arguments they take and those arguments are values and written after the function,
00:07:17 <wob_jonas> but operators also know how many arguments they take and those arguments are values or functions and you write those arguments before the operator,
00:07:29 <wob_jonas> and you need brackets only if an operator takes an argument that is a function call?
00:07:36 <ais523> I'm not sure; I thought APL was more rigid parsing-wise, though
00:08:01 <wob_jonas> because that's a pretty reasonable syntax (actual APL syntax is more complicated, because it has both functions that take arguments on left and right side, and operators that take arguments on left and right side, but ignore that part now)
00:08:16 <wob_jonas> perhaps forget the APL part for a moment, and look at only the description I said
00:09:27 <wob_jonas> this is sort of the general syntax I want, only I want many levels of precedence, not only three
00:09:49 <ais523> ^ul ()(a(:)~*^:^):^
00:09:50 <fungot> ...out of time!
00:09:53 <ais523> hmm
00:10:14 <ais523> ^ul (x)(a(:)~*^:^):^
00:10:15 <fungot> ...out of time!
00:10:33 <ais523> ^ul (x)(a(:S:)~*^:^):^
00:10:34 <fungot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
00:11:45 <ais523> ^ul (x)(a(::::)~*^:^):^
00:11:46 <fungot> ...out of time!
00:11:50 <ais523> ^ul (x)(a(::::::::)~*^:^):^
00:11:51 <fungot> ...out of time!
00:11:54 <ais523> ^ul (x)(a(::::::::::::)~*^:^):^
00:11:55 <fungot> ...too much stack!
00:11:57 <ais523> there we go
00:12:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: the point here is that you can write an Underload program that leaks stack
00:12:21 <ais523> which is something that's nonsensical in an APL-alike
00:12:29 <ais523> the reason is that you can manpulate the stack directly
00:12:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah
00:14:05 <wob_jonas> J has rules so that even though you can't determine the parse tree of an expression in advance, in every reduction step you either get an error or the number of symbols on the stack decreases, so you can't grow the stack up
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00:17:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: there's the C preprocessor which lets you get more tokens from fewer tokens and blow up an expression that way
00:17:37 <wob_jonas> people do crazy token string manipulation tricks with it
00:17:47 <ais523> the C preprocessor has no way to write a loop other than self-inclusion, though
00:18:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: not an infinite loop maybe, but it lets you write very long non-infinite loops easily
00:18:34 <wob_jonas> well, "easily" in an eso sense at least
00:18:37 <wob_jonas> it's been done
00:19:02 <wob_jonas> you know those preprocessor manipulation things in the boost preprocessor library and the P99 library, right?
00:20:00 <wob_jonas> and macros can expand to commas or unbalanced parenthesis, which makes the whole thing appear similar to stack manipulation in those stack manip languages where you can't determine the parse tree without running the program
00:21:02 <ais523> right
00:21:59 <wob_jonas> if you don't know those preprocessor tricks, you should look at them, because it's interesting in an eso sense: while the preprocessor isn't eso intent, it is sort of a tarpit, where it can do much more than it was designed to do
00:22:02 <wob_jonas> sort of like tex
00:22:24 <wob_jonas> but it's restricted, so you need crazy tricks to do useful things, and there are a lot of things you want to do that you can't for syntax reasons
00:22:25 <ais523> I have the feeling that tex was intentionally TC
00:22:29 <wob_jonas> so you need to choose encodings wisely
00:22:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, TeX is intentionally TC, but the details of how you program it is tricky
00:22:57 <wob_jonas> as in, TC is easy if you choose how you represent your data
00:23:18 <wob_jonas> but you don't want to do everything on a numeric array, because that's slow and inconvenient to input
00:23:36 <wob_jonas> so writing complicated programs gets interesting (in the obfu sense) in TeX
00:26:54 <wob_jonas> and TeX is a much more closed language than say C++ or rust, in the sense that when some convenient feature can't be reasonably implemented in TeX but could be implemented by changing the TeX engine itself, people very rarely dare to change it.
00:27:29 <wob_jonas> there are radical TeX derivatives like luaTeX, but they don't spread as much as modern versions of C++
00:27:32 <fizzie> This is an old thing, and sort of unrelated to the current discussion, but if you never happened to come across it: https://tgceec.tumblr.com/
00:27:50 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, I've seen that
00:28:08 <ais523> I haven't seen it (although I've seen an equivalent contest on PPCG)
00:28:09 <fizzie> It was probably discussed on #esoteric, at that.
00:28:49 <ais523> did they ever post the 2015 results?
00:29:15 <fizzie> I think not, just the "results thus far" post.
00:29:19 <wob_jonas> the extreme amount of error messages they get is amazing, but the general idea of error message blow up is familiar to anyone who tries to use MSVC or older versions of gcc,
00:29:25 <wob_jonas> and sometimes you even see it in modern gcc
00:29:45 <wob_jonas> I even have a bug report about a particular case when gcc gives some stupid meaningless shit for some program error
00:30:08 <fizzie> I've been dabbling with C++ for fun lately, and it still seems to be quite easy to get a few hundred lines of errors even for simple things.
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00:30:35 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh sure, the challenge is to do that without templates
00:31:14 <wob_jonas> and without using the fact that if you include a few headers, you get a thousand overloads for operator<< or similar, so you get a long list of suggested overloads for a function overload choice failure
00:31:14 <fizzie> I think what I mostly got (for not trying) was long lists of funcion overload candidates when what I tried to call didn't quite match anything.
00:31:20 <fizzie> Heh.
00:31:30 <fizzie> Yes indeed. :)
00:32:16 <wob_jonas> other ways to get long error scrolls is to make one typo early in the file and then the compiler misunderstands the whole thing. MSVC is specifically very bad at this, modern compilers are getting better but even they can't ever be perfect at that,
00:32:53 <wob_jonas> because they'd have to guess the craziest typos you can make, like when a word you use a hundred times should be a typename but is declared as a variable instead
00:33:04 <wob_jonas> or when you leave a left brace open
00:34:30 <wob_jonas> this was my gcc bug report (resolved, though not perfectly to my satisfaction): https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=58363
00:34:47 <wob_jonas> gcc prints 13 lines of errors and none of them tells the single real error in the program, which is a missing parenthesis pair
00:35:01 <wob_jonas> even though it should be able to tell that that's the error from purely the syntax
00:36:00 <wob_jonas> was unnoticed or low priority because it's a case that almost never comes up in non-obfu programs
00:37:19 <wob_jonas> the minimal test case is complicated and unlikely in real code
00:37:35 <wob_jonas> but possible nonetheless
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00:40:16 <wob_jonas> after they fixed it, the error message is still nonsense and doesn't tell the real error, but at least it doesn't contain an internal oops (as in an almost internal-compiler-error) barf in it
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00:41:04 <ais523> now I'm wondering if naming the pseudodestructor without calling it makes sense
00:41:20 <ais523> i.e. just «m.~f;»
00:41:31 <ais523> the gcc error messages imply that gcc thinks that's acceptable
00:41:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51842&oldid=51841 * JHM * (-2) /* Non-wrapping */
00:43:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: not currently, but it's not unreasonable to think that it is. there's a nonstandard gcc extension to C++ that lets you name an object and a member function together without calling it (to do the virtual method dispatch now but call later and possibly multiple times), and this could be expanded to cover destructors (which can be virtual too)
00:44:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: but currently naming the pseudodestructor doesn't make sense, and usually you get a less crazy error message if you try it, which is why I needed this ugly testcase involving an operator and a typedef for a builtin type
00:44:21 <wob_jonas> s/builtin/scalar/
00:44:41 <wob_jonas> s/an operator/an overloaded operator/
00:45:22 <wob_jonas> you don't get this bug if you try to put the pseudo-destructor-non-call into most other contexts
00:46:52 <wob_jonas> and you want to try to name a destructor for a type that is known at compile time to be a scalar type (not just for a dependent type variable that may be a scalar type in some substitution), which you rarely do in real code
00:47:07 <wob_jonas> but don't ask why, I don't know how gcc internals work
00:47:28 <wob_jonas> also, this was many years ago, they have rewritten like half of gcc since
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00:59:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, going back to the NP-complete lexer, I have an idea for how this poetry with word shared between adjacent lines could work
00:59:35 <wob_jonas> it might be a bit strained, but eh, #esoteric
01:01:09 <wob_jonas> Foklorist goes to record epic songs sang by bards before they're lost. Song is Kalevala-style, sang alternatingly by two bards prompting each other, and alliterating.
01:02:26 <wob_jonas> Whenever song changes from one bard to the other, last line of previous bard must have a word that alliterates with a word in first line of next bard, where we define alliteration as the [vowel]*[consonant]-prefix of the words being equal.
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01:05:34 <wob_jonas> For better acoustics, folklorist decides to use two phonographs, one for each bard. Recording media is expensive. So whenever the older bard sings, the folklorist records it with his phonograph to his wax cylinders, and whenever the younger bard sings, the folklorist's assistant (who does all the hard work but gets none of the awards) records it wi
01:05:34 <wob_jonas> th his phonograph on his wax cylinders.
01:06:18 <wob_jonas> The recording media also comes in many small pieces, so they often change cylinders. They forgot to label the cylinders in advance, and don't have time to do it during the performance.
01:07:13 <wob_jonas> The editor Mr. Lexer (another assistant who does all the hard work and gets none of the awards) has to listen to all the cylinders afterwards and put them in proper order so the replies alliterate to their prompts.
01:08:42 <wob_jonas> Note that a single cylinder can have a sequence of multiple adjacent prompts and replies sang by one side.
01:10:07 <wob_jonas> Mr. Lexer will have to solve a problem that could in theory encode a general graph Hamilton-path problem, though in practice it won't be that difficult computationally (and will be difficult for reasons other than computational complexity of the Hamilton thing)
01:10:32 <wob_jonas> This lexing is the first stage, because the interesting part continues when you listen to the whole epic, properly sorted.
01:10:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: does that sound good enough for an NP-complete lexer/
01:11:36 <ais523> since when did esolangs have elaborate backstories? :-D
01:11:41 <ais523> (admittedly, some of cpressey's do)
01:12:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: some of the IOCCC ones do, like that babbage thingy (where each statement is one of x+=y, x-=y, x*=y, x/=y where x and y are variables0
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01:13:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: thematic ones like chef and Piet and Shakespeare also sort of have back stories
01:14:05 <wob_jonas> oh, and of course many of the more recent ICFP languages have very elaborate back stories too
01:14:13 <wob_jonas> Lambda: the Gathering or the sand computer
01:14:14 <ais523> yes
01:15:20 <wob_jonas> many non-eso languages also have elaborate back stories for why they have such features that you can understand only with decades of historical reasons of compatibility with previous versions
01:15:41 <ais523> right, but those aren't normally constructed with entertainment as a goal
01:15:42 <wob_jonas> like x86 or some of the strange C++ syntax things
01:16:24 <wob_jonas> and those languages that aren't eso but become tarpits, like openttd signals or TeX, they do have back stories too for why they have features that seem to make general purpose programming so difficult
01:17:16 <wob_jonas> "entertainment as a goal" => that much is nicely two-layered, with the meta-story about the bard and the story the bard sings
01:19:46 <wob_jonas> anyway, it's somewhat questionable if you can call this lexing
01:24:38 <wob_jonas> heck, even Game of Life, which is definitely an esolang, has some back story about bacteria that are multiplying and dying form overcrowding
01:26:06 <wob_jonas> not very elaborate, but it is there
01:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean INTERCAL has an elaborate backstory of "the opposite of everything languages did circa '74"
01:27:42 <ais523> even then, though, it's clearly shaped by the languages at the time
01:27:57 <wob_jonas> well, everything is
01:28:24 <wob_jonas> it's hard to make something that's truly alien to everything done before
01:29:17 <ais523> I dunno, three star programmer is pretty weird :-D
01:32:40 <wob_jonas> weird yes, but definitely not alien, not after other esolangs that are one-instruction (or few instructions) and operate on a random-addressable vector of fixints
01:33:12 <wob_jonas> it's just more elegant than most of those in some sense, because it's so simple
01:33:47 <wob_jonas> and much more constrained (tarpit) than the other comparably simple ones
01:36:57 <ais523> But Is It Art? also seems to avoid nearly all the rules of a typical programming language
01:37:16 <ais523> its syntax is inherently 2D, it doesn't have commands, it doesn't have any sort of data storage or loop
01:37:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's a better example
01:37:39 <ais523> it doesn't have an evaluation order
01:37:52 <wob_jonas> not only is the syntax 2D, but the execution is also 2D and nondeterministic
01:38:03 <wob_jonas> it, like, executes in two time dimensions
01:38:13 <Phantom_Hoover> looks on a very preliminary skim to be a similar concept to TC wang tilings
01:38:30 <ais523> yes, it's basically a tarpit of that category of languages
01:38:44 <wob_jonas> Phantom: yes, it's a generalization of those
01:40:57 <wob_jonas> Then there's Forte, which surfacially look very similar to an ordinary language, but when you try to write programs for it, it turns out there's some crazy twist that makes it difficult.
01:41:09 <wob_jonas> Those languages are fun too
01:41:11 <ais523> yes
01:41:17 <ais523> I wouldn't call Forte alien, though
01:41:20 <ais523> the familiarity is part of the joke
01:41:32 <wob_jonas> yep, it's not alien
01:42:19 <wob_jonas> Heck, in some sense counter machines are like that too, if you introduce them as multi-tape turing machines where the tape alphabet only has one symbol
01:43:22 <wob_jonas> (or more like one writable symbol, plus one symbol that marks the beginning of the tape, which is totally realistic, because real magnetic tape drives can detect the beginning of the tape when rewinding in a way other than reading symbols from the tape)
01:43:39 <ais523> it crossed my mind that Minsky machines are technically a brainfuck derivative (just with reverse causality)
01:44:14 <wob_jonas> what?
01:44:38 <wob_jonas> I mean, I know how they're brainfuck derivatives (with fixed size tape of bigints), but why reverse causality?
01:44:57 <ais523> they came first
01:45:19 <wob_jonas> oh! reverse causality in the history of languages, not in execution
01:45:20 <wob_jonas> I see
01:45:44 <wob_jonas> I thought of reverse causality in the sense that it is modeled by nondeterministic execution or something
01:47:23 <wob_jonas> That's like how 8086 is a derivative of 8088 with reverse causality, because technically 8086 was first, 8088 is simpler and cheaper and got well spread to consumers because of the IBM PC.
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01:49:06 <wob_jonas> the 8086 clearly looks like an advanced 8088 with 16-bit memory access
01:51:18 <wob_jonas> but that sort of hardware simplification has happened before the x86 too, like with those simplified 6502 variants
01:53:32 <wob_jonas> in reality, if you're watching not as a tunnel visioned software guy like me, the 8088 really is a better 8086, because it requires a much simpler hardware interface to use (and is a bit less performant in exchange)
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02:26:09 <wob_jonas> huh? why would someone consider zsh a bourne-like shell as opposed to a tcsh-like shell? to me, the most important distinguishing feature between those is that a bourne-like or posix-likeshell does word splitting after it expands a parameter like $foo , whereas tcsh and zsh doesn't.
02:26:35 <wob_jonas> I could be wrong though, because I don't use tcsh or zsh much.
02:26:43 <wob_jonas> I don't really remember how they work.
02:27:29 <wob_jonas> I can write bash and posix sh scripts mostly without referencing a manual, but can't do that for zsh or tcsh.
02:29:27 <wob_jonas> So it's possible that I just think of those shells as bash-like and non-bash-like.
02:29:50 <wob_jonas> Can someone who knows about csh and zsh and posix-like sh pipe in?
02:31:22 <wob_jonas> (Yes, it's sort of a high bar, but we're on #esoteric )
02:34:24 <fizzie> I was a tcsh user 15-20 years ago, and zsh was the default shell at the university, but I've entirely forgotten the subtleties. It was just too easy to default to bash.
02:35:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: zsh is cool, it's almost certainly a better shell than bash, but I decided not to bother learning it because if I want to write a program where the difference between shells matter, then I use perl or some other non-shell language
03:07:24 <Cale> Shells are all pretty terrible languages in which to write anything nontrivial. The guy I work for just had an incident where he replaced some double quotes with single quotes in a client's bash script, and it ended up doing rm -rf / and wiping out his home directory on that machine (thankfully it happened on a machine that didn't have much of interest on it at the time).
03:08:54 * Zarutian uses tclsh if he can get away with it ;-Þ
03:10:43 <Jafet> from a shell user's point of view, zsh and bash have converged a bit over time; zsh has acquired many bash compatibility settings (including for word splitting) and bash has acquired many zsh features (such as programmable completion)
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03:12:56 <Cale> (Whoever decided that unbound variables ought to be interpolated as the empty string was not thinking very clearly at the time.)
03:13:29 <Jafet> pretty sure you can come up with a haskell program where the same replacement has the same effect
03:14:11 <Cale> It'd be pretty tricky to contrive it... the issue was that there was an interpolation in that string which actually set the value of another variable at the same time
03:14:41 <Cale> and then later, that variable was used in the path to rm
03:15:53 <Jafet> sounds like a script that was not written in the sensible subset of bash
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03:16:26 <Jafet> (well, that subset is pretty small, and probably not obvious to novices)
03:16:33 <Cale> right
03:16:47 <Cale> and the script didn't *look* insane or anything
03:18:02 <Jafet> changing quote marks is not a safe operation in most languages, though, so I don't know why one would do it?
03:18:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51843&oldid=51837 * Oerjan * (+2) /* Common Lisp */ Bugfix
03:20:23 <Cale> Jafet: I didn't ask. I think he'd completely missed the fact that there was any variable expansion going on in that string at all.
03:22:46 <Cale> The other silly thing is that rm doesn't actually check that it will succeed before beginning to delete stuff.
03:30:39 <Jafet> rm -rf / is special-cased nowadays
03:32:29 <Jafet> which is interesting, because you'd imagine that people would unintentionally rm all sorts of other things, but no, only the infamous / is detected
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04:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> Just wrote a Python program to solve 1-1+1-1+1-...
04:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> Just waiting for it to finish computing
04:37:12 * sleffy waits
04:37:21 <shachaf> `5 w
04:37:46 <HackEgo> 1/3:nothing//Nothing would have been better than to create this wisdom entry. \ absolute value//The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths. \ lazy//La \ nitia//nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented
04:37:49 <shachaf> `n
04:37:50 <HackEgo> 2/3:her. \ hydra//http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml , dire: http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml , theory: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/02/the-hydra-game/ https://en.wikipedia.org
04:38:00 <shachaf> `n
04:38:00 <HackEgo> 3/3:/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem
04:38:08 <hppavilion[1]> sleffy: Done!
04:38:18 <sleffy> oooh goody
04:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> sleffy: 0.4999923707218823
04:39:00 <sleffy> nice
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09:28:20 <Taneb> http://conal.net/papers/compiling-to-categories/compiling-to-categories.pdf is a paper I found interesting
09:33:55 <shachaf> Oh, he finally published it.
09:34:00 <shachaf> Are you going to ICFP?
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10:21:14 <Taneb> shachaf, if I can, which is unlikely
10:22:10 <shachaf> Why/
10:22:14 <shachaf> s/.$/?/
10:24:22 <Taneb> Well, how much do tickets cost
10:27:21 <shachaf> I don't know, I guess registration isn't open yet.
10:28:17 <shachaf> Looks like student early tickets for all of ICFP in 2016 cost $300.
10:28:30 <shachaf> Oh, $360.
10:37:11 <Taneb> Add to that transport (thankfully it's not overseas for me this year, but it's still a journey) and accommodation
10:38:28 <shachaf> You're practically next door.
10:38:43 <shachaf> You could go for one day to see conal's talk.
10:39:47 <Taneb> It's a five hour journey by train
10:40:23 <shachaf> From Hexham?
10:40:52 <shachaf> I guess it is.
10:41:02 <shachaf> Kind of scow.
10:43:10 <Taneb> I'm not going to be based in York after June
10:43:15 <Taneb> I might also not be a student
10:44:32 <shachaf> Or you might be a PhD student at Oxford?
10:44:39 <shachaf> That would make it very convenient.
10:45:02 <Taneb> And also rather unlikely
10:45:47 <shachaf> Sorry, of course I mean DPhil.
10:46:35 <Taneb> Considering my prospective final grade, still rather unlikely
10:47:19 <Nistur> Huh. Something just down the road from me. Interesting
10:47:48 <Nistur> shame there's no way my wife would approve of me spending that much money to go :P
10:49:32 <Taneb> Nistur, ICFP?
10:49:48 <Nistur> yep
10:49:57 <Nistur> it's also on my birthday
10:50:20 <Taneb> Do you think you could potentially convince your wife to let someone you met on the internet stay for a week over your birthday
10:50:38 <Nistur> (I'm about 30 minutes up M40 from Oxford. I've done the trundle down to Oxford several times)
10:50:41 <Nistur> um
10:50:48 <Taneb> (not a serious request)
10:50:53 <Nistur> I probably could
10:51:00 <shachaf> Leamington Spa?
10:51:15 <Taneb> I've got a friend in Abingdon who I'd call on first
10:51:30 <Nistur> shachaf: bing bing bing. Points. Although I actually live in Coventry because house prices in Leamington are stupid
10:51:50 <shachaf> What are house prices in Leamington like?
10:51:56 <Taneb> Isn't Phantom_Hoover in Coventry?
10:51:58 <Nistur> almost London prices
10:52:04 <shachaf> I guess I can look it up.
10:52:34 <shachaf> "2 bedroom semi-detached house for sale" "£200,000 Guide Price"
10:52:46 <shachaf> That can't be London prices, surely.
10:52:58 <Nistur> I bought a 2 bedroom house in a cul-de-sac with a garden in a nice part of Coventry for £125. That would barely have got me a 1 bed flat in most parts of Leamington
10:53:01 <Nistur> hmmm
10:53:05 <Nistur> hmmm
10:53:14 <shachaf> Maybe this website isn't reliable.
10:53:15 <Nistur> it depends what parts of Leamington you're looking at
10:53:45 <Taneb> Do house prices scale linearly in the number of bedrooms, absent other factors?
10:54:14 <Nistur> (not wanting to be overly snobby) but you don't really want to buy in South Leamington... and anything in North will cost you more
10:54:20 <Nistur> *£125k
10:55:05 <shachaf> So cheap.
10:55:19 <shachaf> The bay area is pretty scow in this respect.
10:55:29 <Nistur> I think it'd be impossible to ignore other factors, I mean, you can't split rooms indefinitely
10:55:54 <Nistur> so the size of the house has to affect it too
10:56:18 <Nistur> but otherwise... probably yes
10:56:59 <shachaf> I'd guess that house prices are primarily affected by land prices, which are primarily affected by location and size.
10:57:26 <shachaf> Number of bedrooms is probably loosely correlated with size.
10:58:13 <shachaf> Maybe this is more true around here where land prices are ridiculous so the houses themselves are often comparably cheap.
10:59:02 <shachaf> (But what do I know.)
10:59:54 <Nistur> http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/property/leamington-spa/?price_max=130000&price_min=120000&q=Leamington%20Spa%2C%20Warwickshire&results_sort=newest_listings&search_source=home There are only two places actually around Leamington for that price range... one is a retirement house which looks like it might be a mobile home, bricked in... and the other one is a 1 bed flat
11:00:58 <shachaf> I looked at http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-66040934.html
11:01:07 <shachaf> But it was the first Google search result so it's probably unreliable.
11:01:23 <shachaf> seo = scow engine optimization
11:03:15 <Nistur> rightmove is reliable
11:03:36 <Nistur> Lillington is a little bit outside of Leamington though
11:05:27 <Nistur> it's not quite London prices, you're right... but in Coventry, a similar property is easily £50k cheaper in a similarly nice location
11:05:32 * Nistur shrugs
11:05:46 <Nistur> I work in Leamington though
11:06:11 <fizzie> London prices. :(
11:06:22 <shachaf> Anyway as far as I can tell you can't find anything around here for less than, say, $600k.
11:06:40 <shachaf> Not that I'd be likely to buy real estate anyway?
11:06:55 <shachaf> But complaining about real estate prices is a popular activity.
11:07:01 <shachaf> I guess I could complain about rent prices instead.
11:09:41 <shachaf> Looks like London prices may be roughly the same neighborhood?
11:10:01 <Jafet> with renting the technique of splitting rooms becomes possible, though perhaps not indefinitely
11:10:30 <shachaf> If price is linear in number of rooms, splitting can be a profitable strategy.
11:10:48 <Jafet> maybe you could rent a bunk for half of each day
11:11:12 <Jafet> (the fabled rental time-division multiplexing)
11:11:20 <fizzie> UK's smallest castle is for sale at £550k, said the news the other day.
11:11:30 <fizzie> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/30/uks-smallest-castle-sale-550000/
11:11:31 <shachaf> Jafet: that theory has been debunked hth
11:13:55 <Jafet> would purchasing that count as a defensive investment?
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11:15:12 <Nistur> when I lived in London, I had a friend that rented a room... it was just a little larger than a single bed (as in, he could just about stand beside the bed) and it was in a... not great part of London (although, not overly crappy either) and it cost him £90/week I think
11:16:25 <shachaf> I rented a pretty small room in East Palo Alto (a not great part of silly valley, people would probably call it) for a similar price.
11:16:36 <shachaf> It was somewhat bigger, though.
11:18:31 <shachaf> fizzie: You could have bought a nuclear missile silo in NY for a similar price: https://www.zillow.com/blog/house-of-the-week-missile-silo-home-66159/
11:18:53 <shachaf> (Missile not included.)
11:24:42 <Nistur> have you seen that guy who's bought a missile silo and is youtubing videos of cleaning it up?
11:25:13 <Nistur> ummmm... "Death Wears Bunny Slippers" the channel is called
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11:46:09 <boily> fungot: nostril.
11:46:09 <fungot> boily: we're going down hard and fast and.
11:46:35 <boily> fungot: indeed. my nostrils aren't working. or working too much. either way, fscking allergies.
11:46:35 <fungot> boily: can anyone point out a particularly clean vm implemented in c
11:47:58 <Taneb> boily, are you taking anything for them?
11:48:28 <boily> Tanelle. yes, loratadine.
11:49:07 <Taneb> That's good, I hope things get easier for you
11:51:59 <boily> Thaneb ^^
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20:32:10 <int-e> shachaf: I have to admit that the tower was quite unexpected (and no I didn't solve that level yet)
20:32:21 <shachaf> The Great Tower?
20:32:35 <shachaf> That was the level I was on last time I played the game (which was a few weeks ago, before I lost my computer).
20:32:44 <shachaf> (Which I've now found so I should get back to it.)
20:32:55 <shachaf> I managed to cook all the sausages but then I was stuck on the ledge.
20:33:11 <int-e> yes, the great tower
20:44:06 <int-e> I didn't really try... there's another level on that island that is unsolved here (Twisty Farm), which is easier to think about
20:51:33 <int-e> well, not anymore.
20:55:44 <shachaf> I had a few others on that island. I should keep going on that game sometime.
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23:47:17 <boily> `w
23:47:30 <HackEgo> math//Math class is tough!
23:50:48 <boily> `dowg math
23:50:58 <HackEgo> 10653:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; sed -i \'s/ $//\' `grwp -l \' $\' | grep -v rules` \ 6426:2015-12-19 <b_jonäs> le/rn math/Math class is tough!
23:53:57 <shachaf> `? rules
23:53:58 <HackEgo> rules? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:54:16 <shachaf> `? rules of wisdom
23:54:17 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry's humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced with no space at the end, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
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23:54:30 <shachaf> `grwp even more
23:54:39 <HackEgo> ichtymology:Ichtymology is like itymology, but even more fishy. \ vampire:Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf.
23:55:12 <\oren\> `w
23:55:14 <HackEgo> for further details.//See `? for further details for futher details.
23:55:17 <\oren\> `w
23:55:18 <HackEgo> football//A football is a ball made of feet. It was rdocscovered in an old burial site near a graveyard full of footless zombies.
23:55:23 <boily> helloochaf, he\\oren\.
23:55:34 <\oren\> `? for futher details
23:55:35 <HackEgo> for futher details? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:55:54 <\oren\> `w
23:55:56 <HackEgo> nimby//NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
23:55:58 <\oren\> `w
23:56:00 <HackEgo> webcarting//webcarting is not dissimilar to Mario Kart, but uses real, remote-controlled go-karts. Participants describe it as "the outlandish spectacle of real go-karting combined with the thrill and immersion of Mario Kart".
00:00:17 <quintopia> helloily
00:00:47 <shachaf> `w
00:00:48 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
00:00:49 <HackEgo> ​☾_//☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers.
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01:13:04 <\oren\> Isn't it great when software is not documented excpet in the head of someone who doesn't work here anymore?
01:15:11 <boily> I much prefer no comments than lying comments.
01:16:46 <\oren\> I should probably rmember this and document some of the stuff I'm doing in case I get hit by a streetcar
01:17:57 <\oren\> yeah lying documentation would be worse
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01:18:14 <\oren\> `grwp document
01:18:15 <HackEgo> browser:A browser is a Gopher client for convenient access to Gopher services and documents. \ latex:LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \} \ links:links is one of the very few HTML renderers that doesn't try to store a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in ca
01:19:02 <\oren\> `grwp documentat
01:19:04 <HackEgo> No output.
01:19:14 <\oren\> `grwp documented
01:19:16 <HackEgo> lrint:The lrint and lrintf functions (of C99 and C++11) are actually supported by the MS compiler (starting from the 2013), only strangely undocumented. \ snap:Snap is a simple web development framework for unix systems, written in the Haskell programming language. Snap has a high level of test coverage and is well-documented. \ trunc:The trunc and
01:19:36 <\oren\> `grwp trunc
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01:19:38 <HackEgo> trunc:The trunc and truncf functions (of C99 and C++11) are actually supported by the MS compiler (starting from the 2013), only strangely undocumented.
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01:26:06 <quintopia> boily: are you aware a hamilton circuit on the rubiks cube state space cayley graph is known?
01:26:27 <quintopia> a sequence of moves that hits every legal config exactly once
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01:32:36 <\oren\> quintopia: whoa.
01:32:52 <\oren\> that's a long sequence
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01:44:19 <boily> quintopia: !
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02:21:17 <tswe_tt> `unidecode ―—
02:21:19 <HackEgo> ​[U+2015 HORIZONTAL BAR] [U+2014 EM DASH]
02:28:00 <\oren\> Google Maps sends hundreds of cliff-seeking tourists to Norwegian village 30km away
02:28:39 <\oren\> “We have sent hundreds of tourists away in no uncertainty that they’re on the wrong side of the fjord. In the summer season up to 10-15 cars show up each day,” Fossmork resident Helge Fossmark told Norwegian newspaper Stavanger Aftenblad.
02:30:08 <\oren\> Another resident said he lends them a set of binoculars to catch a peek at the people on the actual cliff formation, which can be seen from the village.
02:37:00 <tswe_tt> 30km? That's not that far.
02:37:38 <quintopia> i wonder if its the cliff that i visited
02:38:04 <quintopia> it cant be a coincidence that helge fossmark lives in fossmork
02:38:30 <tswe_tt> About a week ago I drove 50km to get a beer and a pizza.
02:38:47 <quintopia> same
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02:39:06 <quintopia> it was supposed to be a chicago deep dish pizza, but it wasnt even close
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03:09:37 <doesthiswork> So I have prologish thing using variable renaming to keep variables from different scopes distinct
03:10:10 <doesthiswork> but I'd like to use environments instead
03:10:49 <doesthiswork> (instead of variable renaming)
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03:59:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bobbyfisher101 * New user account
04:04:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51844&oldid=49679 * Isaacg1 * (+0)
04:25:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Drift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51845&oldid=51070 * Hsorenson * (-50)
04:28:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51846&oldid=51836 * Bobbyfisher101 * (+187)
04:28:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ybc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51847 * Bobbyfisher101 * (+3190) Programming Language YBC
04:30:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51848&oldid=51750 * Bobbyfisher101 * (+10) /* Y */
04:30:49 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FkpM4FWa8A
04:30:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51849&oldid=51848 * Bobbyfisher101 * (+0) /* Y */
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04:49:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ybc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51850&oldid=51847 * Bobbyfisher101 * (-725)
04:51:26 <\oren\> excert from bot abuse in another channel:
04:52:11 <\oren\> ay: oreeeen thinks Qboid meeeeant to say: oreeeeeeeen thinks Qboid meeeeant to say: oreeeeeeeen thinks Qboid meeeeant to say:
04:52:46 <shachaf> methinks that bot abuse was not in this channel for a reason hth
04:53:17 <\oren\> oren thinks Qboid meant to say: oreen thinks Qboid meeant to say: oreeeen thinks Qboid meeeeant to say: oreeeeeeeen thinks Qboid
04:53:21 <\oren\> oren thinks Qboid meant to say: oreen thinks Qboid meeant to say: oreeeen thinks Qboid meeeeant to say: oreeeeeeeen thinks Qboid
04:53:24 <\oren\> meeeeeeeeant to say: oreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen thinks Qboid meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeant to say: oreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen thinks Qboid
04:53:44 <shachaf> i am a bot, and this is abuse
04:53:45 <shachaf> tdnh
04:54:05 <\oren\> shachaf: so basically they had a bot that does s///
04:54:27 <\oren\> so I started sending it s/e/ee/
04:54:40 <doesthiswork> do we need to call bot services and get you to a less abusive channel?
04:55:25 <\oren\> and it kept doubling the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
04:55:43 <izabera> such amazing hacking skills
04:56:11 <Jafet> the mark of an ee-lite
04:56:21 <doesthiswork> doubling the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?
04:56:26 <\oren\> yeah
04:58:28 <\oren\> s/e/ee/
04:58:33 <\oren\> yeeah
04:58:39 <\oren\> yeeeeah
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04:59:36 <doesthiswork> that's a big pun
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11:47:35 <boily> `w
11:47:38 <HackEgo> emoticon//emoticon: ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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12:30:33 <boily> hellørjan! byerjan!
12:30:37 <oerjan> hoily
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12:39:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mayube * New user account
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12:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51851&oldid=51846 * Mayube * (+223) /* Introductions */
12:44:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51852&oldid=51849 * Mayube * (+16) /* B */ Added Braingolf to list
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14:07:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ybc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51853&oldid=51850 * Bobbyfisher101 * (+5013)
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14:29:42 <wob_jonas> "A football is a ball made of feet. It was rdocscovered in an old burial site near a graveyard full of footless zombies." (wisdom)
14:29:59 <wob_jonas> I still say that a ball made of feet is this sculpture: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Szegedvaros-aranycsapat.JPG
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14:39:23 <wob_jonas> "Isn't it great when software is not documented excpet in the head of someone who doesn't work here anymore?" => yeah. I've seen that from both sides: having to use software like that, and writing software like that.
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15:30:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braingolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51854 * Mayube * (+10358) Created page with "'''Braingolf''' is a stack-based esoteric language designed by Programming Puzzles and Code-Golf user, [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/44998/ Mayube]. The name origi..."
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15:45:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braingolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51855&oldid=51854 * Mayube * (+445)
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17:35:53 <Taneb> How I use GHCi as a calculator: :!dc -e "1 2 + p"
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17:42:17 <int-e> that reminds me of http://sprunge.us/EcSD (no clue whether this works, that has been in my quote file for 15 years, I think)
17:42:31 <int-e> (how to format a tex file in vi)
17:43:04 <int-e> well, vim
17:44:39 <Zarutian> with vigour!
17:45:23 * Zarutian scuttles away before the pun hits.
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18:39:56 <rdococ> hi hppavilion[1]
18:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> hi rdococ
18:41:54 <rdococ> yay
18:42:07 <rdococ> my favourite array item is here
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21:59:36 <quintopia> so now oerjan is on ppcg. its so one way! everyone from here goes there, but no one important from there comes here
21:59:49 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za3L9fTGexQ
22:00:08 <\oren\> ppcg?
22:00:09 <wob_jonas> quintopia: isn't that because this channel is older than PPCG?
22:00:17 <shachaf> pikhq: hikhq
22:00:40 <shachaf> you seem irritated about this bill for some reason
22:00:46 <wob_jonas> PPCG started in 2008
22:00:57 <wob_jonas> I don't know the history of this channel
22:01:08 <wob_jonas> wait, the irc server might know
22:01:25 <wob_jonas> chanserv says 2003. wow!
22:01:37 <wob_jonas> that was like in the prehistory
22:01:43 <shachaf> Hmm, I started using IRC around 2003.
22:01:53 <shachaf> But I wasn't here until many years later.
22:01:59 <wob_jonas> the channel was started before I even used the screen name jonas
22:02:09 <wob_jonas> and much before I was ever on irc
22:02:15 <wob_jonas> I was a newbie to the internet back then
22:02:43 <wob_jonas> `? ppcg
22:02:45 <wob_jonas> `? pcg
22:02:59 <HackEgo> ppcg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:02:59 <HackEgo> pcg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:03:06 <int-e> @google ppcgh
22:03:07 <int-e> @google ppcg
22:03:08 <lambdabot> http://acronymsmeanings.com/full-meaning-of/ppcgh/ppcgh-stands-for-ppcgh-means
22:03:08 <lambdabot> Title: What is the meaning of PPCGH, acronym definition of PPCGH, abbreviation PPCGH...
22:03:09 <lambdabot> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/
22:03:25 <wob_jonas> I know the history goes back to forever, because HackEgo has this `! command which is trying to be a replacement for some previous bot that I haven't ever met
22:03:26 <int-e> modern knickknack
22:03:51 <\oren\> `!
22:03:52 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/: Permission denied
22:03:56 <wob_jonas> int-e: be careful. I've been running an IRC bot for ten years now. I'm not that modern.
22:04:10 <int-e> wob_jonas: I meant SE
22:04:14 <pikhq> shachaf: Gee, you think?
22:04:15 <wob_jonas> ah yes
22:04:17 <wob_jonas> SE is modern
22:04:43 <int-e> `? `!
22:04:45 <HackEgo> ​! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
22:04:57 <wob_jonas> no, not that !
22:05:08 <shachaf> That's pretty good.
22:05:12 <\oren\> now look at this net, that I just found.
22:05:12 <shachaf> `dowg !
22:05:23 <HackEgo> 6945:2016-02-24 <oerjän> le/rn !/! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
22:05:23 <wob_jonas> we should have a wisdom for it
22:06:17 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LztagIixx2Y
22:06:30 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn `!//`! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it replaces some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
22:06:36 <HackEgo> Learned '`!': `! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it replaces some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
22:07:04 <int-e> `? egobot
22:07:06 <HackEgo> EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
22:07:06 <shachaf> No one knows how it works?
22:07:12 <shachaf> `dowg egobot
22:07:20 <HackEgo> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
22:07:22 <int-e> hoping for nitia
22:07:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes
22:07:31 <int-e> (too slow)
22:07:36 <wob_jonas> `! perl print 3**3
22:07:37 <HackEgo> 27
22:07:42 <\oren\> `? `!
22:07:42 <wob_jonas> it's supposed to work something like that
22:07:43 <HackEgo> ​`! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it replaces some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
22:08:02 <\oren\> `! c printf("hello world");
22:08:03 <wob_jonas> `! c int main() { printf("hello, world\n"); return 0; }
22:08:03 -!- augur has joined.
22:08:20 <wob_jonas> `! lua print"hello from lua"
22:08:25 <HackEgo> hello from lua
22:08:29 <shachaf> oerjan: I must say I appreciate how it's "Initïal" and not "Initiäl" import.
22:08:45 <HackEgo> No output.
22:08:46 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
22:09:06 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn `!//`! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it originally replaced some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
22:09:08 <HackEgo> Relearned '`!': `! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it originally replaced some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
22:09:09 <wob_jonas> ^prefixes
22:09:09 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
22:09:18 <wob_jonas> probably egobot, if it's called !
22:09:20 <wob_jonas> `? egobot
22:09:21 <HackEgo> EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
22:09:47 <int-e> `? metasepia
22:09:49 <HackEgo> metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
22:10:06 <wob_jonas> `? prefixes
22:10:07 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
22:10:25 <wob_jonas> ! perl print "hello from egobot perl"
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22:12:42 <wob_jonas> fungot, do you know how `! works?
22:12:42 <fungot> wob_jonas: gotta " cvs login" first. what are the operands?
22:13:01 <wob_jonas> wait wait
22:13:38 <wob_jonas> `! c printf("hello from C,\n");
22:13:40 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
22:13:47 <wob_jonas> `! c int main() { printf("hello from C,\n"); }
22:13:48 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
22:13:56 <wob_jonas> `! c #include <stdio.h> \ int main() { printf("hello from C,\n"); }
22:13:58 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
22:14:04 <wob_jonas> `! c #include <stdio.h> \n int main() { printf("hello from C,\\n"); }
22:14:14 <HackEgo> hello from C,
22:14:18 <wob_jonas> AH!
22:14:22 <wob_jonas> so that's how it works!
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22:17:14 <\oren\> now net at this net, that I just net. when I net net, be ready to net. net! net it at him not me! ugh, let's net something else.
22:20:24 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9gDfuQaubI
22:27:05 <\oren\> now net and learn, here's the deal, he'll net and net on this banana peel! *boing* what are you netting!
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22:31:24 <zzo38> I made a list of the short description of my Farbfeld Utilities http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=Documentation (all of the links are currently not implemented, but that wiki is writable by anyone). You can also therefore to see what kinds of things might be missing. One thing that I thought to add can be a program to make the tensor product of two pictures.
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22:59:31 <boily> `w
22:59:33 <HackEgo> ent//Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-{s-zár-szó,{rend,szem}-e-s} Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-{fél-egy-ház-a,hal-a-s} Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
23:09:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51856 * Taneb * (+449) Created page with "'''Sacramento Wormhole''' is an upcoming [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric programming language]] created by [[Nathan van Doorn]] and Daniel J. A. Bailey. To understand..."
23:09:56 <sdhand> Taneb: nooo
23:10:03 <sdhand> Don't open irc on your phone
23:10:14 <sdhand> What a terrible idea
23:10:23 <zzo38> I thought of a new variant of a VLQ, which the difference is that if the high bit is set you must subtract 127 instead of subtracting 128.
23:10:27 <zzo38> Do you like this?
23:11:34 <boily> sdhellond. IRC on your phone is good for you.
23:12:19 <Taneb> Hello
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23:19:28 <sdhand> Hello boily
23:19:58 <boily> Tanelle.
23:25:08 <sdhand> Taneb is making an esolang
23:25:16 <shachaf> Tanesolang
23:25:19 <sdhand> I am losing a board game
23:26:24 <boily> which boardgame? solo?
23:27:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51857&oldid=51856 * Taneb * (+513)
23:29:07 <int-e> shachaf: I fried the great tower
23:29:15 <shachaf> int-e: tg
23:29:23 <sdhand> boily: it is called eclipse
23:30:57 <boily> sdhand: large hexagons? a metric armadaload of spaceships and small little cubes?
23:31:29 <sdhand> boily: exactly
23:32:31 <boily> one of the best games out there! play Eridani, rush galactic center, ?????, profit!
23:34:56 <sdhand> I'm playing eridani heh
23:35:28 <sdhand> I did a lot of exploration turn 1
23:35:39 <sdhand> Only found ancient hexes
23:35:50 <sdhand> And then my economy ranked
23:35:57 <sdhand> Tanked*
23:37:02 <boily> aurgh!
23:37:40 <alercah> ouch :(
23:38:53 <boily> hellorcah. did some tile shuffling two days ago.
23:39:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51858&oldid=51857 * Taneb * (+401)
23:41:27 <alercah> I still need to figure out if I can actually go to montreal after the... stuff
23:43:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51859&oldid=51858 * Taneb * (-1)
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23:48:07 <Taneb> I'm pretty happy with this language
23:51:13 <boily> alercah: more stuff? :(
23:53:07 <alercah> boily: same stuff
23:53:17 <boily> bleh.
23:53:42 <sleffy> how to delimit continuate without accidentally building a static typechecker into a lisp
23:57:55 <int-e> `grwp lion
23:57:56 <HackEgo> auction:Auction is going once... going twice... gone to the cowled entity in the corner for six trillion zorkmids. \ bitcoin:bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to
23:58:32 <shachaf> `2 grwp lion
23:58:35 <HackEgo> 2/8: support up to 21 million coins before breaking. \ firefly:FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. \ hðh:hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times. \ hppavilion:hppa
23:58:40 <shachaf> `forget auction
23:58:43 <HackEgo> Forget what?
23:58:47 <int-e> `grwp \blion\b
23:58:48 <HackEgo> No output.
00:02:40 <zzo38> I don't like the new rule 115.2e of Magic: the Gathering, which look a bit klugy to me. I think it would be clearer if the Oracle text of the card just said that it was a special action. ("You may discard ~ any time as a special action.")
00:02:41 <int-e> `? up
00:02:42 <HackEgo> up? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:02:57 <int-e> `learn Up is a direction away from the center of gravity of a celestial object.
00:03:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'up': Up is a direction away from the center of gravity of a celestial object.
00:03:29 <alercah> zzo38: that requires explaining to people what a special action is
00:07:39 <zzo38> Yes, but if you play Magic: the Gathering then you can learn.
00:11:47 <alercah> you can but should not have do
00:11:54 <alercah> most players never need to hear the words "special action"
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01:10:28 <boily> `? mahjong
01:10:29 <HackEgo> mahjong? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:10:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Danieljabailey * New user account
01:17:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51860&oldid=51851 * Danieljabailey * (+100) Introduced myself, Dan
01:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51861&oldid=51859 * Taneb * (+106) Put some <code> tags in
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01:19:03 * boily signs the motteke sailor fuku ♪
01:19:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51862 * Danieljabailey * (+347) Add thing about delete past end of file
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01:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51863&oldid=51862 * Danieljabailey * (+16) oops, fix code format
01:21:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51864&oldid=51863 * Taneb * (+158) /* Range beyond end of file behaviour */
01:22:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think that's just a clarifying rule. The ability on Circling Vultures, as written in the current Oracle text, already sounds like it's giving you a special action.
01:23:23 <wob_jonas> What I don't understand though is why they didn't just errata it to an activated ability active when in your hand with the discard as a cost. On such old cards, from before sixth edition, they often make such errata.
01:24:32 <wob_jonas> There are lots of cards from that time that have an ability that used to be activated but now isn't, or backwards. Since it was before the sixth ed, they don't stick to the printed templating closely. On modern cards they rarely do such a change (though it does happen, like they recently changed how madness works).
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01:28:24 <zzo38> wob_jonas: OK it may be clarifying rule, but it seem to me to be more clear if it says "as a special action"; the cards I designed that do similar stuff do say "as a special action" if it is a special action.
01:28:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and there's a good reason why 115.2c already covers most special actions, because most of the other delayed things they can just implement as activated abilities or triggered abilities or delayed triggers or other normal stuff.
01:29:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I take that back. It's not a clarifying rule, because 115.2c doesn't cover it. 115.2c only covers delayed special abilities, which are the activated version of delayed triggers, but they aren't triggers because you can pay for them, and might enable you to activate mana abilities first.
01:29:58 <wob_jonas> But all that tech's not required for simple things like the Vulture.
01:30:30 <zzo38> OK maybe, but it still seem klugy to me the way they did it, instead of just writing on the card text, "as a special action"
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01:30:46 <wob_jonas> It should be a fricking activated ability.
01:30:48 <wob_jonas> Seriously.
01:31:08 <wob_jonas> Yes, I know it's not the same rules-wise, because then you can respond to it and it's an object on the stack you can counter,
01:31:13 <wob_jonas> but that's how it SHOULD work.
01:32:16 <zzo38> Or just "Discard ~: No effect." could be another possibility, I suppose.
01:32:36 <wob_jonas> If it was printed two years later, it'd just say cycling {0}
01:32:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hmm wait, they actually added a phrasing for "No effect" these days... what was it
01:33:10 <zzo38> I don't know?
01:33:17 <wob_jonas> it appears in some replacement effects, possibly self-replacement
01:36:47 <wob_jonas> nope, sorry, they didn't add a phrasing that appears in oracle yet
01:37:06 <wob_jonas> "do nothing" appears in comp rules once, but they always avoid saying that in oracle texts or cards
01:37:22 <wob_jonas> because they're not writing the cards for algebraists or programmers, apparently
01:38:19 <wob_jonas> at least they sometimes have {0} as a noop cost of activated abilities and mana cost of spells, though it's less common these days, it's more because of gameplay problems such abilities cause, not because of templating problems
01:38:34 <zzo38> They should write the cards for algebraists and programmers, because that would make the text more clearly.
01:39:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it's not so bad. at least they did dare to make level up cards start from level 1
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01:53:40 <sdhand> I am convinced Taneb's esolang isn't powerful enough to do much
01:53:55 <sdhand> there's no easy way of updating the ranges in some of the expressions
01:54:14 <sdhand> which is needed for any looping structure
01:54:22 <LKoen> what's Taneb's esolang?
01:55:14 <sdhand> well Taneb's and danieljabailey's
01:55:24 <boily> what's a danieljabaley?
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01:56:08 <sdhand> they were designing it and distracting me from my board game, clearly why I lost....
01:56:09 <sdhand> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Taneb/Sacramento_Wormhole
01:57:07 <sdhand> Dan and I attempted to come up with a fizzbuzz implementation but it seems impossible
01:57:14 <sdhand> obviously I haven't proven this
01:59:17 <LKoen> try to come up with a truth-machine implementation
01:59:25 <LKoen> it should be less tedious than fizzbuzz
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02:15:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cheese3660 * New user account
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02:33:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51865&oldid=51860 * Cheese3660 * (+290) Introduced myself
02:34:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniBitMove]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51866&oldid=50771 * Cheese3660 * (+147) Added an interpreter
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03:05:37 <zzo38> Now I am writing a program to make the tensor product of two pictures.
03:13:21 <zzo38> Now I made it.
03:13:27 <zzo38> Do you like this?
03:18:38 <shachaf> I like this.
03:18:43 <shachaf> But I haven't seen it yet.
03:20:29 <zzo38> Then, you should look at first before you can see if you like this or not, I shoud think
03:20:57 <shachaf> But how can I look at it?
03:21:45 <zzo38> You can see http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/ it is all of the Farbfeld Utilities.
03:22:10 <zzo38> I also made a list of all of the programs with short descriptions
03:22:52 <shachaf> Unfortunately I can't do it from my phone.
03:24:11 <zzo38> O, I did not know that you are doing from your phone.
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04:31:01 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvNQLJ1_HQ0&feature=youtu.be Pachelbel's Canon in D, or as it was originally titled, "Canon and Gigue for Three Violins and Basso Continuo", is apparently a lot more interesting if you... play it at the original tempo.
04:33:35 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM
04:34:23 <pikhq> I'm rather amused that part of it is typically played at something like a fourth of the intended speed.
04:34:37 <pikhq> (the gigue section)
04:50:04 <zzo38> I did not know that.
04:51:12 <pikhq> For those that don't know: a "gigue" was a baroque *dance tune*.
04:51:23 <pikhq> That's how lively the piece is intended to be.
04:52:20 <zzo38> Yes I know what gigue is. I did not know that that music had another title though
05:01:11 <doesthiswork> I thought that was the usual speed to play it, at least it was when I was in orchestra
05:08:51 <zzo38> What sound cards are capable of a sample rate high enough for colour television?
05:09:18 <zzo38> Is there such a thing?
05:16:06 <zzo38> Computing tensor product of pictures is not something I have seen in any other program (or collection of programs) to deal with pictures.
05:16:11 <zzo38> Have you seen any such thing?
05:17:41 <zzo38> Some of the stuff in my Farbfeld Utilities is stuff I have seen in other programs (common in some cases, rare in others), while others are stuff I have never seen anywhere else. But you can correct me if you have seen some of this stuff even though I have not seen!
05:19:40 <zzo38> (Also, some of them are stuff I have seen as parts of other functions in other programs, but not by themself.)
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07:35:41 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: whoa whoa whoa, do you know about non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs
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09:54:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51867&oldid=49732 * Primo * (+99) /* 160 */
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11:00:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51868&oldid=51867 * Primo * (+60) /* 45306 */
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11:25:00 <\oren\> Oh god this game just casually mentions that in the future chinchillas are extinct... poor chinchillas
11:25:05 <\oren\> I hope we can save the chinchillas
11:26:18 <myname> "there are no more elephants" "there is no more unethical treatment of elephants either. the world is a much better place"
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11:26:40 <myname> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BcFHvEpP7A
11:30:37 <int-e> yeah just imagine how much better the world will be when we got rid of the people
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11:31:21 <myname> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG3uea-Hvy4
11:32:37 <\oren\> and eliminate the fucking mosquitoes
11:33:04 <\oren\> can we make species extinct on purpose in the future instead of by accident
11:33:15 <myname> those don't really bother me
11:33:25 <myname> i get rarely stung
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11:33:33 <izabera> \oren\: what about bisons
11:33:36 <izabera> or dodos
11:33:39 <myname> like, not at all in the last year
11:33:41 <int-e> the mosquitos are part of the solution
11:34:11 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_3n9tU1_Q
11:34:38 <int-e> (btw I'm not clicking your links, I'm not really expecting you to click mine)
11:34:56 <myname> :D
11:35:33 <izabera> related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign mao's campain to eliminate mosquitoes resulted in loss of whole harvests and widespread famine
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11:39:06 <\oren\> izabera: well that was because they didn't know the sparrows were eating the locusts
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11:42:59 <\oren\> from what I can see on wikipedia there aren't any obvious problems with eliminating the mosquitoes that spread malaria and sleeping sickness
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13:15:18 <boily> `hellørjan.
13:15:18 <\oren\> I like this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_QOOHAlFEA
13:15:19 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hellørjan.: not found
13:15:59 <oerjan> helloily.
13:30:11 <\oren\> Oh god, a reference to yuru yuri. This game was made by people whose tastes are creepily similar to mine
13:31:50 <oerjan> . o O ( what is \oren\ smurfing about in the logs )
13:35:07 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/J9gDfuQaubI?t=1m30s this?
13:37:16 <oerjan> the joy of seeing someone need 9 tries to get past the wiki introduction...
13:39:47 <boily> he\\oriiiii~n\!
13:39:53 <boily> smurfing?
13:42:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51869&oldid=51864 * Oerjan * (+134) Missing the obvious
13:44:05 <oerjan> <\oren\> now net at this net, that I just net. when I net net, be ready to net. net! net it at him not me! ugh, let's net something else.
13:44:47 <\oren\> yeah it's a version of we are number one where all verbs are replaced with net
13:45:34 <\oren\> we net number one
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14:02:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51870&oldid=51869 * Oerjan * (+351) /* PDA */
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14:25:08 <moony> Empty :P
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14:29:16 <boily> mhelloony.
14:32:28 <moony> hi.
14:32:40 <moony> I got around to porting _js to asdfbot (otherbot's successor)
14:33:07 <moony> works well, just need to trim the output so it doesnt go on indefinitly if you abuse it :P
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14:39:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Taneb/Sacramento Wormhole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51871&oldid=51870 * Taneb * (+249) /* PDA */
14:41:05 <boily> `relcome handicraftsman
14:41:06 <HackEgo> handicraftsman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:42:52 <moony> boily, he just followed the channel name when i brought in asdfbot (I know him)
14:42:54 <moony> +
14:43:15 <myname> http://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-R5wm0UQAADBng.jpg go.
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14:44:29 <moony> eww
14:44:30 <handicraftsman> WHAT
14:44:38 <myname> quality language
14:44:49 <handicraftsman> That was just `_runat #esoteric runas moоny ping`
14:44:54 <handicraftsman> >_>
14:46:10 <moony> handicraftsman, it couldnt identify the U perms. Please dont do that, you know what chaining runa* commands does :P
14:46:31 <handicraftsman> moony, lol
14:46:35 <handicraftsman> My one is better a bit
14:46:37 <handicraftsman> But still shitty
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14:46:51 <moony> dont bring it he- EEE
14:47:03 <moony> Seriously, they dont like sudden bot swarms. This is not ##lazy-valoran
14:47:05 <boily> myname: mynamello. that is vile!
14:47:21 <moony> handicraftsman, make protonbot leave.
14:47:23 <boily> I like swarms. good practice for mapoling ^^
14:47:33 <handicraftsman> \part
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14:47:50 <int-e> boily: swatting seems more appropriate
14:48:05 <int-e> . o O ( A mapole couldn't hurt a fly ;-) )
14:48:50 <int-e> (it's not actually true, but swatters make it much easier)
14:49:21 <handicraftsman> _part
14:49:24 <handicraftsman> _part #esoteric
14:49:27 <handicraftsman> Oh
14:49:28 <handicraftsman> Not here
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14:50:14 <int-e> _?
14:50:32 <handicraftsman> _list
14:50:32 <asdfbot> handicraftsman: Command groups (use list <group>): chanop fun main general
14:51:19 <boily> _selfdestruct
14:51:47 <handicraftsman> Actually m00ny made bot join first time
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14:54:11 <moony> handicraftsman, i know. last i checked, otherbot didnt bother them as long as bot spam did not occur :P
14:54:51 <handicraftsman> Parabolols?
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15:22:07 <boily> `w
15:22:09 <HackEgo> emac//emacs is the weird brother of nano.
15:23:14 <myname> haha
15:23:24 <boily> emacs is everything mashed, amalgamated, conflagrated and stringed together in an unholy mess of weird key combinations.
15:23:45 <myname> and lisp
15:23:50 <shachaf> `` mv wisdom/emac{,s}
15:23:52 <HackEgo> No output.
15:24:50 <shachaf> `le//rn emac//The eMac, released in 2002, was the first model of Macintosh computer to use electricity.
15:24:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'emac': The eMac, released in 2002, was the first model of Macintosh computer to use electricity.
15:25:10 <myname> `? vim
15:25:11 <HackEgo> vim equals to cmxciv or cmxcvi, depending on which part of Roman Empire you are.
15:25:43 <myname> huh, how can it differ by 2?
15:26:02 <myname> ah
15:33:25 <moony> Im working on emulating a filesystem inside of _js
15:34:11 <myname> oh dear
15:34:38 <moony> so far i have the base design for how, say, null devices will emulate
15:34:58 <moony> s/null//
15:35:24 <moony> devices in general actually :P
15:36:14 <moony> alongside files.
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16:47:30 <rdococ> YaY
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16:53:53 <rdococ> hi
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17:53:30 <zzo38> Do you think this document is good? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffbit If something in unclear or wrong or incomplete to please either to make the suggestion or you can fix it yourself
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18:02:25 <boily> hezzo38. looks great! is it possible to restructure it to be more like a man page?
18:09:23 <zzo38> It could; in such a case, such a restructuring can be written as a man page so that it can be used with man.
18:09:37 <zzo38> (and then can also be used with troff and whatever, to make printouts too)
18:10:27 <int-e> adding a man-style synopsis and perhaps two examples would probably be helpful
18:11:30 <int-e> (I don't think that boily is really concerned about the format)
18:11:38 <zzo38> These wiki articles are not really meant to be man pages (they may later even have various stuff added that would not go on a man page), although that does not mean we cannot have man pages too.
18:11:50 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, examples probably will help.
18:12:39 <zzo38> If you can think of what might be good example, we can add them. This is anyone-writing wiki, and we can add links and examples and whatever other information, including stuff you might not want in a man page.
18:15:26 <boily> int-ello. that is indeed what I meant.
18:15:32 <boily> (meanwhile, “Josephine the human zombie”. mwah ah ah.)
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18:18:37 <int-e> hmm
18:19:26 <boily> hmm?
18:19:37 <int-e> @google "josephine the human zombie"
18:19:39 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
18:20:35 <int-e> boily: "hmm" as in "I'm curious but not sure whether I really want to know what that is about".
18:22:12 <int-e> well it turned up http://www.uwindsor.ca/conference/zombies/309/josephine-richards
18:22:36 <zzo38> You can also tell me if there are other kind of headerless bitwise formats that you think could be fit into this program but that are not yet included, if you know of some other that may be in use.
18:24:01 <boily> int-e: playing DCSS, nothing unusual ^^
18:24:33 <int-e> ah.
18:24:43 <int-e> @google dcss
18:24:44 <lambdabot> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/
18:24:44 <lambdabot> Title: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
18:24:56 <int-e> wow... that wasn't the first hit *here*.
18:25:02 <int-e> @botsnack
18:25:03 <lambdabot> :)
18:25:28 <int-e> Here I got "California Department of Child Support Services"
18:26:15 <int-e> `? dcss
18:26:16 <HackEgo> dcss? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:26:24 <int-e> . o O ( Dungean Content Scrambling System )
18:26:30 <int-e> *dungeon
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18:52:31 <zzo38> I found a description of "Aamber Pegasus" computer; the ROM has four programming languages (BASIC, Pascal, Forth, and assembler), as well as three games, and a word processor, as well as the BIOS; additional software could be loaded from cassettes. Also it does video by executing NOPs on the CPU and using its instruction counter; this is another kind of cheap video.
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19:10:54 <boily> `w
19:10:55 <HackEgo> partial order//A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
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19:45:20 <Cale> spooky
19:48:40 <\oren\> what if the hacking *claims* are a last minute lie by Mācrōn, to make people think Le Pen is a russian spy?
19:50:12 <Taneb> \oren\, that'd have a way too high chance of backfiring, especially when he's been leading the polls
19:51:01 <Zarutian> zzo38: how big was the rom and is there a dump of it somewhere online?
19:52:33 <zzo38> Zarutian: I don't know, although I read that it has multiple banks which you must switch between to use different programs.
19:53:30 <Zarutian> zzo38: that is not that unusual. If you think about it a bit, that is what modern memory does with CAS and RAS registers.
19:54:08 <zzo38> Yes, I know it is not unusual.
19:54:26 <zzo38> (Although a small ROM would not need bank switching)
19:55:08 <\oren\> most of the NES games used bank switching
19:56:00 <zzo38> Yes, other than the mapper 0 (NROM) cartridges
20:01:38 <\oren\> ImmutableTreeListᐸElementTᐳ
20:01:44 <\oren\> ImmutableTreeList<ElementT>
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20:17:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * H3amza * New user account
20:25:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51872&oldid=51865 * H3amza * (+97) /* Introductions */
20:52:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51873 * H3amza * (+185) added initial stub. more to follow
20:54:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51874&oldid=51852 * H3amza * (+10) /* R */ added rao to list
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21:29:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51875&oldid=51873 * H3amza * (+2025) added keyword list.
21:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51876&oldid=51875 * H3amza * (+369) added hello world example
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22:42:03 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/bcrypt/status/860954121242681344
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23:15:39 <Taneb> ...can't seem to log in on the wiki
23:15:57 <Taneb> Oh, I wasn't using https
23:17:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffbit => I find this confusing. Either it doesn't do what I want with raw formats, or I don't understand the description.
23:18:52 <wob_jonas> I like imagemagick's handling of raw formats: you choose separately (1) the list and order of color channels, like gray, rgb, rgba, 0bgr (2) bit depth per color channel, like 8 or 16, and
23:19:58 <wob_jonas> (3) the interlacing, as in, the different channels for the same pixel are right after one another, or a single channel for a full row is listed before the next channel starts (rare), or a single channel of the whole image is listed before the next channel starts.
23:20:56 <wob_jonas> There are also ways to handle common headerless YUV formats (which are usually page-interlaced and can have color subsampling, as in, the UV channels can have less resolution than the Y), and headerless bayer.
23:21:39 <wob_jonas> There's also ffmpeg, which does it completely differently: it only has a single parameter for the colorspace of raw images, but that one is a large enum that covers all the commonly used formats.
23:21:42 <zzo38> wob_jonas: This program is only for bitwise paletted raw formats.
23:22:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh, this only does paletted? it can't do rgb (true color) at all?
23:22:11 <zzo38> To support what you are looking for another program can be written for that purpose.
23:22:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes. To support RGB it can be another program to implement that.
23:22:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, I'll probably just keep using imagemagick or ffmpeg for that. I don't think have to go through farbfeld utils for that.
23:23:28 <zzo38> Even if you do not use it yourself, I still think it could be helpful to add a program for headerless RGB formats too.
23:25:11 <zzo38> (This program does implement Hold-And-Modify though.)
23:26:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51877&oldid=51876 * H3amza * (+1304) added ascii characterization.
23:28:39 <wob_jonas> Anyway, if ffbit only writes paletted formats, I think you should mention that in that wiki page, in the first line where it says "various headerless bitwise formats"
23:28:51 <wob_jonas> now let me try to understand what this says again, knowing that
23:29:01 <zzo38> OK, fixed.
23:29:07 <wob_jonas> maybe it should say "various headerless uncompressed paletted formats"
23:29:43 <zzo38> OK, I fixed that too now.
23:30:49 <wob_jonas> so the fourth command-line argument is the palette?
23:31:02 <zzo38> The fourth and subsequent arguments are the palette.
23:31:19 <wob_jonas> oh, like one color per argument?
23:31:29 <zzo38> Yes. It does say "two or more colour specifications (as separate arguments)".
23:31:29 <wob_jonas> strange
23:31:36 <wob_jonas> ok
23:32:00 <wob_jonas> But then, I don't have much need for rare paletted formats.
23:32:04 <wob_jonas> um
23:32:10 <wob_jonas> for raw paletted formast
23:32:37 <zzo38> Examples could be made to clarify it a bit, I suppose.
23:32:51 <wob_jonas> I do use 8-bit paletted often, for writing png, because png is a very widely supported format, and due to the way it works, it compresses paletted way better than rgb for most pictures.
23:33:06 <wob_jonas> But that's not raw paletted, it's compressed.
23:33:24 <zzo38> LodePNG (which ffpng uses) will automatically do that when applicable.
23:33:28 <wob_jonas> And I sometimes use black and white, but I think of that as 1-bit grayscale rather than paletted.
23:34:35 <zzo38> LodePNG will also automatically know to use 8-bits-per-channel or 16-bits-per-channel, and whether or not to include the alpha channel.
23:35:25 <wob_jonas> Right, but the hard part is computing the palette and converting a true color image to paletted, in various ways.
23:36:06 <wob_jonas> as in http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/tktview?name=e5fa2ac6e9 is the first half, and ImageMagick is quite versatile in the second part
23:36:47 <wob_jonas> supports different color metric and dithering, and those options do matter, for different images or uses you want different settings
23:37:00 <wob_jonas> some dithering vs no dithering is the most important
23:37:04 <zzo38> Yes, and I partially wrote "ff-palette" program although the algorithm that is currently implemented is not very good; if you have better idea how to fix them then please to make the contributions too!
23:37:26 <wob_jonas> no dithering is the most common setting, but sometimes dithering is important
23:37:40 <zzo38> (I do intend that the feature request mentioned there will be implemented.)
23:37:42 <\oren\> Hmm, I think I'm having a caffiene overdose
23:38:03 <wob_jonas> you already have an ff-palette ? let me look
23:38:04 <\oren\> I drank too many experimental coffee drinks
23:38:07 <zzo38> Note that to reduce the picture to the specified palette, a different program (ff-reduce) is used; the program ff-palette is only deciding the palette.
23:38:16 <wob_jonas> sure
23:38:51 <zzo38> In addition to the things you specify (which are good), I would also want to be able to add into ff-palette the ability to support HAM and EHB modes too.
23:38:58 <wob_jonas> you can separate those steps in imagemagick too. (you can do it together too if you wish, but it lets you do both of them separately.
23:39:34 <wob_jonas> well, almost. the trick is that you don't give a palette as an input, just a set of colors for the palette. it is free to determine the order and remove dups and unused colors.)
23:40:50 <wob_jonas> pity there's so little docs for these farbfeld programs
23:41:27 <wob_jonas> let me see this ff-reduce first
23:41:54 <zzo38> Yes that is too bad; currently there is only this http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=Documentation and the "bit" converter is the only one whose link works on that documentation page. You are free to help to write the documentation if you want to though; it is anyone-writing wiki.
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23:52:49 <wob_jonas> wait what?
23:53:08 <zzo38> Do you have a better question?
23:53:34 <wob_jonas> does this parse_color thing, like, return an uninitialized Color if the input isn't a color string, and main can call parse_color that way?
23:54:06 <zzo38> Currently it does; perhaps it should be an error message instead. I can fix that now.
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23:54:08 <wob_jonas> that looks like a bad idea
23:54:30 <wob_jonas> even if no error message, it should at least return black or some other valid color
23:54:55 <wob_jonas> that's literally a three character fix
23:55:15 <wob_jonas> change Color c; to Color c={0};
23:55:18 <wob_jonas> ok, four character
23:55:22 <wob_jonas> I'm too much of a C++ person
23:56:18 <zzo38> OK, I fixed that.
23:56:23 <zzo38> Thank you for noting that
23:56:50 <wob_jonas> you could try using compiler warnings to catch this stuff
23:57:17 <zzo38> I could, although the compiler will also warn about many things that I do not want it to worn
23:57:27 <wob_jonas> I have some M:tG rules questions, and I wonder if I should ask them now when I'm tired and ais isn't here, or later.
23:57:38 <zzo38> You could do both!
23:57:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well sure, so disable all the warnings you don't want. that's what compiler switches are for.
23:59:48 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, and it is what I did (you can see at the top of the file). Still, there can be false-positives and false-negatives and so on
00:00:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51878&oldid=51877 * H3amza * (+1312) added section on functions.
00:01:50 <zzo38> What question do you have of M:tG? The rules have been improved a lot since the original version; they are much more logical and mathematically elegant and so on than it used to be, although still there are problems they will probably never fix. The change to split cards rules makes sense, and when they changed madness also it makes sense (and I have idea if a puzzle can then require a different solution in the old or new rule)
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00:03:46 <wob_jonas> Yes, the improved split card rules are much better than the old ones -- though I still sort of feel some tension because split cards are still strange rules-wise, but at the same time some split cards are nice and I want to use them (the old ones and fuse ones at least, not the new after math ones)
00:04:12 <wob_jonas> Most of the things I like in split cards could be done almost as well without split cards, mind you, but those just haven't been printed.
00:04:48 <wob_jonas> Specifically, I'd like Trial as a non-split card.
00:04:52 <zzo38> Actually I agree it is a bit strange.
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00:05:16 <wob_jonas> Mind you, it's a stupid card, it should never have been printed, but once they printed it as a split card, I'd like it as a non-split card.
00:05:48 <zzo38> As well as fuse and aftermath, there is a few card I made up having "fuseback" (meaning you can (and must) fuse it only casting from the graveyard, and then it is exiled after it leaves the stack if you do that).
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00:06:40 <wob_jonas> Fuse is fine, but I hate aftermath.
00:07:52 <zzo38> I have also seen someone made up a permanent split card.
00:09:15 <zzo38> OK if that is what you like and what you hate, but then what of fuseback?
00:09:33 <wob_jonas> Anyway, first an un-rules question. I use Blacker Lotus's ability to tear up a card and exile the pieces. Are the pieces a card? The comp rules used to have a sort of definition of what a card is, but they removed that. What happens if the opponent tries to use Cryptic Cruiser or Pull from Eternity on it?
00:10:29 <zzo38> I can use the definition of "card" that I want, but it still won't help. I think there is no answer. (It is a un-rules question anyways; such questions do not always have answers.)
00:13:14 <wob_jonas> A second un-rules question. In un-games, when a rule or effect asks you to choose a number (including for damage assignment), you can choose a half-integer. This rule can affect games even if there's no sliver-bordered card anywhere. Is this the *only* such rule difference between un-games and normal games?
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00:13:55 <alercah> wob_jonas: no, choice of colour
00:14:06 <wob_jonas> alercah: ah! good point
00:14:06 <alercah> becase avatar of me can have non-traditional colors
00:14:12 <wob_jonas> hazel or brown color
00:14:14 <wob_jonas> yeah
00:16:49 <zzo38> (Even with my definition of a "card", it is unclear whether or not tearing the card is considered as a kind-changing effect, and even if it is not (which would seem by default), it does not specify what to do if you use Pull From Eternity and stuff like that.)
00:18:14 <wob_jonas> Perhaps even creature types differ, as in you can choose Donkey as a creature type in an un-game but not in normal games, but that will rarely change anything, it only matters when almost all creature types are potentially in use in the game.
00:18:55 <zzo38> Yes. Probably in un-cards you could use more creature types too.
00:21:58 <zzo38> When playing Un-cards, there is no "proper" rules, only improper rules.
00:25:26 <zzo38> And then there are various unofficial Un-cards such as these http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/uncards.txt and also some meaningless RoboRosewater cards, and then is even more confusing to figure out how to do it!
00:25:57 <wob_jonas> I have normal (non-un) rules question too.
00:26:29 <zzo38> OK, what question?
00:26:56 <wob_jonas> wait, I'm trying to fine a sane example
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00:27:18 <wob_jonas> ok, here
00:29:11 <wob_jonas> I have an animated Muse Vessel and an Experiment Kraj. The Vessel gets a +1/+1 counter, then I use the first Vessel ability on Kraj, then the Vessel loses all counters, then later the Vessel gets a +1/+1 counter again, then can I use the second Vessel ability of the Kraj and access the card I exiled?
00:31:56 <zzo38> I think so, if you use it on Experiment Kraj. (But you can ask again to someone else later I suppose)
00:32:10 <wob_jonas> 607.5 is probably the relevant rule
00:32:27 <zzo38> The rules are not clear enough to me it seems. But I will look at 607.5 now
00:32:50 <wob_jonas> You can get a weirder version where instead of removing the counters, the Vessel phases out then later phases in.
00:33:36 <zzo38> Yes, although it remains the same object in that case I will think. I think there are things that could be made clearer, including to consider an object's text as its AST; I think that would help a lot of things
00:34:07 <wob_jonas> Or the Vessel gets Cytoshaped to an elephant, then the shaping times out; or the Vessel gets turned to a frog.
00:34:34 <zzo38> Yes, there is stuff like that.
00:35:07 <wob_jonas> I'd like to have some comprehensive rule of how linked abilities work when an object can gain and lose it.
00:36:55 <zzo38> Yes, that would help. You could make the suggestions, maybe. My own idea would be for the link to be part of the AST of the definition of those abilities, so they are linked in that way. You would then have to make up the mathematical model of it and then it can be clear.
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00:51:26 <wob_jonas> Ok, that's all the questions I have for today. Maybe more later. Good night.
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01:00:51 <oerjan> `cwlprits emacs
01:01:06 <HackEgo> shachäf
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01:52:35 <shachaf> oerjan: ?
01:53:48 <oerjan> shachaf: just checking if you overwrote anything
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02:54:01 <boily> `w
02:54:03 <HackEgo> mpiler//An mpiler takes an executable file and nverts it to readable form.
02:54:23 <boily> mmmmpile you say ♪
02:54:46 <oerjan> mmmboily
02:56:57 <boily> ørjannn.
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02:57:57 <oerjan> my haskell is becoming steadily more evil
02:58:10 <oerjan> > let f n=mapM(["<","~<~"]<$f)[1..n]!!n>>=id in f 10
02:58:12 <lambdabot> "<<<<<<~<~<~<~<"
02:59:00 <oerjan> now to PPCG ->
03:00:22 <boily> but, what's the point of dekolmogorofying a perfectly valid and simple string?
03:01:15 <oerjan> dekolmogorofying?
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03:01:44 <oerjan> it's a function, not a string hth
03:01:59 <Zarutian> boily: does that involve using karnough maps in reverse?
03:02:38 <boily> oerjan: oh. uh. eeeegh. uuuuurgh. evil, I say.
03:03:09 <oerjan> also the initial <s are redundant, but makes this solution work.
03:03:11 <boily> Zarutellon. yup, untabling the stuff.
03:03:40 <boily> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity
03:06:49 <boily> `w
03:06:50 <HackEgo> indexed monad//Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
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05:40:49 <Warrigal> Turboprop, turbojet, turbofan.
05:41:09 <Warrigal> Out of those three types of airplane engines, two of them are jet engines.
05:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51879&oldid=51878 * H3amza * (+14) title lowercase
05:42:23 <zzo38> Then what is the others ones?
05:44:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51880&oldid=51879 * H3amza * (+5) /* External resources */ fixed link
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06:14:30 <\oren\> zzo38: a turboprop works instead by having a gas turbine engine power a conventional aircraft propeller
06:14:54 <\oren\> they are, for some reason, popular in russia
06:15:33 <zzo38> O, OK
06:15:50 <\oren\> for example, the Tu-95 Bear bombers
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06:55:22 <zzo38> As well as for sometimes helping with compression, Paeth encoding can also be used for special effects such as this one: http://zzo38computer.org/img_19/example1.png
07:07:21 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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10:11:27 <int-e> why does https://xkcd.com/1647/ remind me of this channel
10:12:30 <Taneb> int-e, nӧone knows
10:13:10 <int-e> shachaf: so apparently there are four islands in SSR
10:19:13 <int-e> hmm, maybe not, I missed one end.
10:20:51 <rdococ> ø
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10:21:24 <rdococ> herkinglo.
10:24:38 <int-e> but so there is a fifth part.
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12:19:47 <rdococ> hi
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12:39:55 <rdococ> hoily
12:48:18 <rdococ> HOILY!
12:52:05 <boily> rdochellooooooooooooc!
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13:01:44 <rdococ> DHelloshooooooooooooooot!
13:03:45 <rdococ> Yay!
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13:14:57 <DHeadshot> hellrdococ!
13:16:08 <rdococ> DHelloshot!
13:19:13 * DHeadshot is surprised anyone is that pleased to see him...
13:22:32 <rdococ> I'm pleased to see anyone tbh.
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13:44:54 <rdococ> hi tromp
13:45:14 <tromp> hi
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13:56:38 <rdococ> ih
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14:07:36 <tromp> afk to Go tournament
14:11:01 <rdococ> heh
14:11:48 <boily> trellomp. you play go?
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14:23:20 <rdococ> I think he has gone already
14:28:00 * boily mapoles rdococ
14:28:42 * rdococ birches boily
14:29:40 <rdococ> hoily
14:35:32 <rdococ> HOILY
14:36:29 <boily> I am here.
14:36:40 <rdococ> YAY
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14:45:52 <mroman> I just read the average human eats 1.8kg of food per day
14:45:57 <mroman> and I was like WHAT?
14:46:05 <mroman> Then I read the average for US is 2.7kg
14:46:10 <mroman> And WTF
14:46:26 <mroman> Who eats 3kg of food per day
14:46:33 <mroman> @massages-liid
14:46:33 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
14:46:37 <mroman> @massages-loud
14:46:37 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 2m 15d 9h 28m 4s ago: tyvm
14:58:11 <boily> mrelloman. that's a pound and a third per meal. sounds way too high to me.
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15:01:08 <mroman> boily: It sounded way too high to me too.
15:01:46 <mroman> but 1.8kg sounds way more realistic than 2.7kg
15:01:55 <mroman> but it still sounds rather high
15:02:09 <mroman> but maybe that's due to poor countries who might only have low-calory foods
15:02:36 <mroman> that's what I thought.
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15:02:48 <mroman> but if the US average is 2.7kg then uhm
15:03:17 <mroman> but I could imagine that poor countries eat a bit more food but low-calory food. I haven't really managed to confirm any of this
15:03:29 <mroman> though
15:05:09 <int-e> > 1000/365
15:05:12 <lambdabot> 2.73972602739726
15:10:58 <boily> mroman: that the average American citizen consumes six pounds per day doesn't surprise me much. every time I cross the borders I get fatter :/
15:11:14 <boily> int-ello.
15:11:48 <mroman> how the hell can you eat 3kg :(
15:11:59 <int-e> http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2011/12/31/144478009/the-average-american-ate-literally-a-ton-this-year <-- the funny thing is... the numbers in the article don't match up at all with the numbers in the link to the US D.A. site. Summing their numbers results in a much more reasonable 1.3kg estimate, excluding drinks.
15:12:00 <mroman> 100g meat, 100g rice/pasta, 100g vegetable
15:12:03 <mroman> that's a standard meal
15:12:09 <mroman> 300g
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15:12:52 <mroman> 2.7kg per day sounds like complete bullshit
15:14:21 <int-e> mroman: the number is almost certainly bullshit. I bet the "americans eat 1t of food per year" headline is the actual source for that data.
15:14:27 <int-e> "data"
15:14:53 <int-e> Now... if you include drinks... that changes the picture entirely. Perhaps they did that.
15:15:11 <mroman> drinks yes
15:15:14 <mroman> 1.5l a day
15:15:17 <mroman> is 1.5kg a day
15:15:20 <mroman> > 365*1.5
15:15:23 <lambdabot> 547.5
15:15:29 <mroman> > 1.5+1.3
15:15:31 <lambdabot> 2.8
15:15:40 <mroman> that would add up yes
15:16:47 <mroman> that would fit a ton almost perfectly
15:17:42 <int-e> (the 1.3kg number isn't very exact. The tables measure vegetable intake in cups... useless.)
15:27:34 <mroman> 1.3kg sounds reasonable though
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15:43:43 <FireFly> huh, I never thought about it
15:43:50 <FireFly> well
15:43:57 <FireFly> I never thought about how much I drink compared to how much I eat
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15:56:39 <Warrigal> int-e: didn't you know that cups are the new SI unit for vegetables?
15:57:35 <Warrigal> The base units are the meter (length), the kilogram (mass), the second (time), the amp (current), the kelvin (temperature), the mole (amount of substance), the candela (luminous intensity), and the cup (vegetables).
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16:05:02 <oerjan> a cuppa carrots
16:10:57 <rdococ> hmm
16:10:58 <rdococ> tasty
16:11:04 <rdococ> what is 1 cup though?
16:11:16 <rdococ> is it like drinking cups, or...?
16:11:44 <rdococ> also, fruit should be measured in saucers
16:11:53 <rdococ> and meat should be measured in coffee machines
16:12:26 <oerjan> and non sequiturs should be measured in orangutans
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16:31:27 <boily> Warrigello, hellørjan, hellorkin.
16:32:00 <boily> rdococ: a cup is eight fluid ounces, but it gets rounded to eg. 250 ml in Canada, and 200 ml in Japan.
16:32:13 <boily> (there are other places that do rounding, but I forget which.)
16:32:31 <oerjan> bood afternoily
16:32:51 <boily> the main difference between recipes here and France is that we do (almost) everything by volume, and they do it by weight.
16:34:47 <boily> that, and oven temperatures. 350 is natural. 175 makes no sense.
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17:20:37 <rdococ> lol
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17:31:28 <doesthiswork> regular expressions are state machines. loops are also state machines. Why should they have different syntax?
17:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover> how are loops state machines
17:34:29 <doesthiswork> I don't know, I may have had too much to drink
17:36:07 <doesthiswork> but it looks as though there are two states to a loop, looping and finished
17:43:01 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a lot of other state in a loop
17:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> e.g. int i = 0; while(0) { i++; } has infinitely many states
17:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> unlike regexes which are finite-state machines
17:45:56 <zzo38> Can a variant of a regular expression to be made where it is possible to define infinite families of states?
17:46:09 <doesthiswork> I'll try pushing all the infinite out of the model and calling it inputs
17:47:10 <doesthiswork> so the machinery puts it into a finite number of equivalency classes
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18:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> doesthiswork, that's... not how it works
18:17:01 <doesthiswork> you're right
18:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> this is literally the difference between being turing complete and not
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18:43:18 <boily> `w
18:43:21 <HackEgo> fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
18:43:25 <APic> *shrug*
18:43:43 <boily> APHic.
18:44:02 <APic> Yo.
18:44:09 * APic has no Hiccup at the Moment.
18:44:10 <APic> Shall i have?
18:45:56 <boily> well, your nick is difficult to porthello...
18:46:08 <boily> APHelloc maybe?
18:48:13 <rdococ> HeyPic
18:48:28 <boily> rdochelloc. HeyPic is good.
18:49:18 <APic> Yo
18:49:21 <rdococ> hoily, heypic
18:49:40 <rdococ> Phantom_Heyver
19:02:06 <Taneb> bonsoirly
19:05:22 <boily> Tanelle!
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19:15:26 <rdococ> doesthellork: hi
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20:14:13 <\oren\> I lost several pounds being in japan for only two weeks
20:14:25 <\oren\> everyhting is tiny in japan
20:15:29 <\oren\> also, they don't add sugar to everything. a "black iced coffee" is something that only exists in japan to my knowledge
20:21:32 <boily> ヘ\\オレン\!
20:21:38 <boily> where are you at?
20:23:02 <\oren\> currently? toronto.
20:23:43 <boily> oh. I thought you were still there.
20:23:46 <\oren\> I should see if starbucks even sells unsweetened iced coffee
20:24:16 <boily> did you enjoy your time over there?
20:25:37 <\oren\> of course
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23:06:26 <Sgeo> "NꙮW WITH MꙮRE MULTIꙮCULAR ꙮ
23:06:26 <Sgeo> "
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00:12:11 <boily> `w
00:12:12 <HackEgo> te sting//This is horrible?
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00:43:15 <tromp> yes, boily, I play Go
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00:50:15 <zzo38> Somehow it seems that some pictures will be compressed better with PNG if a small window size is used, and some work better with larger window sizes. Do you know why?
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01:11:26 <\oren\> HEY! NEW GAME +! I love when games have new game +
01:13:08 <\oren\> I wish more games would have new game + tho
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01:14:44 <zzo38> OK, although is not something that interests me much.
01:15:33 <zzo38> I just prefer to have different options that can be set.
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01:54:55 <boily> `w
01:54:56 <HackEgo> cpressey//cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse.
01:55:24 <shachaf> `dowg cpressey
01:55:31 <HackEgo> 3512:2013-08-28 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/mouse/mousse/\' wisdom/cpressey \ 2973:2013-05-29 <Phantom_Hoovër> learn cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse. \ 2967:2013-05-28 <oerjän> learn cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he\'s older than the universe hth.
01:57:04 <shachaf> `4 w
01:57:09 <HackEgo> 1/1:warrigal//Warrigal is #esoteric's resident dingo. It sometimes pretends to be a human. \ asternology//Asternology is the art of predicting what happened in the past. \ impomatic//impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database. \ heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
01:57:20 <Warrigal> o/
01:57:57 <boily> Dingo dango dongo ♪
01:58:36 <boily> wait. you've been more warrigaling than tswetting lately. back to your roots?
01:59:33 <shachaf> Did you read _Mathematics Made Difficult_?
02:04:57 <izabera> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/b7i3u/mathematics_made_difficult_pdf/
02:05:13 <shachaf> Yes, that one.
02:05:23 <shachaf> Though I think there's file smaller than 20MB with the same content.
02:11:42 <Warrigal> boily: sump'm like that.
02:11:57 <Warrigal> It's because I've temporarily switched to a different client.
02:18:05 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/math-diff-2-4.txt
02:18:16 <shachaf> This book is too good.
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02:24:42 * hppavilion[0] . o O ( I wonder if 'https' should be given a shorter alias- such as 'htts' or 'htps'- so that link shorteners like it more )
02:35:01 <boily> httppavellon[0].
02:35:43 <izabera> how about using httpseverywhere
02:37:11 <zzo38> I think "https" is fine; it is not too long.
02:37:41 <zzo38> (If they wanted to write "httpsecure" then it would be too long, though)
02:38:44 <shachaf> What about "hypertexttransferprotocolsecure:"?
02:41:47 <boily> SecuredHyperDocumentElementTransferProtocolBuilderFactoryAdapter
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03:24:57 <shachaf> `coins
03:25:00 <HackEgo> mibicoin calcoin creptimisplcoin redclcoin bfinjaquatingcoin gencoin mulacoin trindcoin cablystackmildcoin bookcoin unland.nexpcoin kolmonozcoin dracoin nubinocoin stocoin pograissigcoin arbazcoin autobencecoin tfriecoin eatcoin
03:25:01 <shachaf> kmc: ☝
03:25:40 <shachaf> fried chicken coin
03:25:42 <shachaf> coin-of-the-woods
03:26:29 <shachaf> oh man, unicode has been jammed up
03:26:35 <shachaf> 🖢
03:26:43 <shachaf> 🖠
03:26:47 <shachaf> so many jams
03:27:42 <kmc> yay coins
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03:28:11 <shachaf> 🍄
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04:46:33 <zzo38> I made up list of several new GURPS spells such as Red Shift, Blue Shift, Heavy Gravity, Seek Air, Seek Fire, Write, Smite Mages, False Aura, Delay Spell, Berserk, Vampire Transfer, Mirror Link, Feign Death, and others. Do you like this?
04:47:05 <shachaf> Do *you* like it?
04:47:48 <zzo38> Yes, kind of. I will have to see if it is good enough.
05:06:37 <zzo38> I also wrote about some perks and options to allow linking spells to body part other than hands, such as bite, feet, striker, and spines. For Missile spells there is also the perks for additional options being breath attacks and gaze attacks.
05:06:43 <zzo38> And also spells that complement each other (such as Red Shift and Blue Shift); each defaults to the other at -5.
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05:38:13 <zzo38> You can write the new spell too if you have the good idea please.
05:55:59 <zzo38> I think that farbfeld is simpler than Netpbm and that Hamster archive simpler than tape archive. Isn't it?
05:57:30 <izabera> yeah that's a common complaint about netpbm
05:57:34 <izabera> it's too complex
05:58:07 <zzo38> Yes, looking to me too. That is why Hunhold invented farbfeld, and why I use it.
06:05:32 <izabera> i'm assuming you also fancy their beautifully designed video format that can store a whole 113s in 100gb
06:05:37 <izabera> no audio tho
06:06:22 <zzo38> You can see this document I wrote http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffpng it list all of the options of the PNG encoder. I added some since last time too.
06:08:13 <pikhq> Some of the NetPBM features are rather *odd* for an image format, and also really easy to not implement.
06:08:24 <pikhq> For instance, the header can have comments.
06:08:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know is odd
06:08:37 <pikhq> And, a single file can have multiple images in it!
06:08:56 <shachaf> sounds easy to implement if you use a c compiler hth
06:09:06 <shachaf> Hmm, no.
06:09:10 <shachaf> I'm thinking of a different format.
06:09:30 <shachaf> xbm
06:09:30 <zzo38> Yes, you can have multiple pages. I have written dvipbm which does that though; you can use it to rasterize all of the pages and then send to printer driver in order to print.
06:09:55 <izabera> shachaf: you just have to ignore everything from # to \n
06:09:59 <izabera> how hard can that be
06:10:28 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
06:11:23 <zzo38> (I did write my own rasterizer program to make a print out, because I did not find the ones that come with the computer to be suitable. Do you like this?)
06:17:06 <zzo38> Even the express mode of ffpng compresses better than some other PNG encoders, although not always. An option to copy chunks from another PNG file is still missing though.
06:19:02 <zzo38> Do you know if any picture compression format has options to store the picture rotated or flipped in case that would improve the compression?
06:21:11 <zzo38> PNG does sometimes compress better when the picture is rotated or flipped or mirrored.
06:21:41 <zzo38> The document of FLIF seem not completed so I cannot see if it has any such feature or not.
06:23:00 <pikhq> Huh. I've not heard of such a thing.
06:23:09 <pikhq> This could just be ignorance, but still.
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06:31:12 <shachaf> `relcome Mr2001
06:31:13 <HackEgo> Mr2001: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:34:15 <shachaf> Hmm, yellow looks pretty bad in Freenode webchat.
06:34:22 <Mr2001> indeed
06:34:31 <shachaf> I'll have to remember to avoid relcome for those cases.
06:35:14 <shachaf> Do you like this?
06:35:19 <shachaf> `` quote zzo38 | shuf -n1
06:35:20 <HackEgo> 177) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
06:36:43 <shachaf> I played a text-based adventure game recently.
06:36:50 <shachaf> Wait, no, I was just thinking about playing one.
06:37:05 <shachaf> And then I played one or two games that involved clicking on words and were pretty linear.
06:37:52 <\oren\> Have you played VA-11 Hall-A yet? it invoves clicking on words
06:38:46 <shachaf> No.
06:38:47 <zzo38> Make up some text adventure game using TAVERN. The standard adventure include file is not yet completed (and is hardly done) but hopefully can be done without entirely doing by myself only.
06:38:52 <shachaf> I'm not a fan of clicking.
06:39:21 <\oren\> although it also involves mixing drinks
06:39:43 <Mr2001> speaking of text adventures and esolangs, do you like this: http://inky.org/if/snap/index.html
06:42:38 <shachaf> This is HQ9+ for interactive fiction?
06:42:57 <shachaf> And also for running HQ9+ programs.
06:43:11 <Mr2001> indeed
06:45:23 <shachaf> I've already written several excellent games.
06:45:29 <shachaf> I can't wait to find out what they're about.
06:45:41 <Mr2001> it really does make programming a snap!
06:46:14 <shachaf> You could make a wiki page about it on esolangs.org
06:46:37 <shachaf> It doesn't seem very interesting as a language, though.
06:46:47 <Mr2001> well, no
06:47:10 <shachaf> But maybe I haven't explored it enough yet.
06:47:23 <Mr2001> it is a joke language
06:47:38 <shachaf> I figured that much.
06:47:48 <Mr2001> ZIL is more interesting but probably doesn't fit the definition of esoteric
06:47:52 <shachaf> But maybe it's a joke with multiple levels.
06:49:16 <shachaf> I used Inform 6 once.
06:49:20 <zzo38> ZIL seem like good. I don't know any programming in ZIL, but I do know ZAP.
06:49:26 <shachaf> And I tried Inform 7 and didn't like it.
06:49:39 <shachaf> But that was more than a decade ago, so who knows.
06:49:46 <zzo38> The new VM is TAVERN, see if you like that one?
06:50:20 <Mr2001> Inform 7 is pretty sweet. if you didn't like it then, you probably won't like it now, though.
06:50:30 <shachaf> Isn't text outdated?
06:50:36 <zzo38> I don't like read only programming languages such as Inform 7
06:50:43 <shachaf> Video is where it's at, if you want to maximize user engagement.
06:50:46 <shachaf> Video and photographs.
06:50:53 <Mr2001> the thing people notice most about it is that it looks like English, but IMO what makes it interesting is that it introduces new concepts that work well in the domain.
06:50:59 <shachaf> And pictures with text overlaid in Impact font.
06:51:28 <shachaf> What sorts of concepts?
06:51:41 <shachaf> Oh, no, I did play a text-based adventure game recently!
06:51:50 <shachaf> I can't remember what it was called. It was very short, and it had a ghost.
06:51:54 <Mr2001> relations, object description expressions, scenes, rulebooks
06:51:59 <shachaf> It was an entry to a competition.
06:52:18 <zzo38> I have written a few Z-machine implementations including ZORKMID and JSZM, and started writing one for Famicom. However, there are probably some things I should rewrite, such as maybe the instruction dispatch loop should be put into the zero page to use self-modifying codes.
06:52:26 <shachaf> Maybe you know the one I mean?
06:52:29 <zzo38> (This implementation for Famicom is called Famizork)
06:52:35 <zzo38> Do you know any Famicom programming?
06:52:36 <shachaf> Do you like Famicom?
06:52:41 <zzo38> Yes
06:53:56 <shachaf> Mr2001: I only recently realized about Spider and Web that gur ernfba lbh pna'g fnl "gnatb" hagvy gur evtug zbzrag vf gung gur ibvpr zbqhyr vfa'g ba gur gnoyr hagvy gung zbzrag.
06:54:03 <shachaf> It should have been obvious in retrospect.
06:54:16 <shachaf> (Don't read if you haven't played the game, I guess.)
06:54:17 <Mr2001> so you might see a statement like "if an evil man (called the villain) carries a weapon (called the sidearm) that contains at least 6 unused bullets, ...", which searches the world model for such a set of related objects and captures them in variables
06:55:16 <shachaf> Do you think these abstractions merit a new language?
06:55:18 <shachaf> They might.
06:55:48 <Mr2001> well, the goal was to make writing IF more like writing a story and less like writing a program
06:55:58 <shachaf> One thing I've wondered about is what a language that could be used on cards in a game like Magic: The Gathering would be like.
06:56:15 <zzo38> I have thought of stuff about Magic: the Gathering like that too.
06:56:28 <shachaf> I don't care about it being like English -- in fact I'd prefer not, though you can generate English text from it -- but it would need to be a very odd language to support the sorts of things Magic: The Gathering cards do.
06:56:35 <shachaf> Any card can change pretty much anything.
06:56:49 <Mr2001> rulebooks are pretty good for that
06:56:52 <zzo38> One thing I thought is to use a AST that might look something like: [:counter [:target :spell]]
06:56:57 <Mr2001> I started porting Fluxx to I7 once
06:57:11 <shachaf> (It doesn't have to be exactly that game -- I think you can simplify it significantly if you're willing to break backwards compatibility and have less complicated but still interesting interactions.)
06:58:40 <zzo38> What I thought of is to invent a new literate programming language for writing the rules, and then write the rules using that in a mathematically precise way.
06:58:42 <Mr2001> a rulebook is basically an array of functions that are sorted through some complex and overrideable logic at compile time, that can each have conditions that check whether they apply to the current situation, and can change the state for future rules or exit the rulebook with some outcome
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06:59:52 <zzo38> (This is the use of literate programming; you can now make a book to write the rules of the game, which is the same book as the program which is the implementation, which make rules more clearly.)
06:59:54 <shachaf> Hmm.
07:01:04 <Mr2001> so for MtG, you might have a rulebook for each phase of the turn (or probably some finer grain), and the definition of each card could contribute rules to various rulebooks and define any ordering relationships
07:01:59 <shachaf> I haven't played that game in a while. I'm not up to date on all the latest innovations.
07:02:45 <zzo38> I had other ideas about rewriting rules of Magic: the Gathering though anyways, including concept of "persistent properties", which include initial text, owner, and kind. Text is meaning the AST.
07:03:08 <shachaf> `5 w
07:03:13 <HackEgo> 1/2:freefull//FreeFull the Unpronounceable is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure. \ syntax//Syntax is just a subset of grammar. \ yorick//We know nothing about yorick, alas. \ welp//welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes. \ ol//OL stands for Origina
07:03:17 <shachaf> `n
07:03:18 <HackEgo> 2/2:l Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
07:03:27 <zzo38> Mr2001: Do you know any Famicom programming?
07:03:29 <shachaf> `cwlprits ol
07:03:37 <HackEgo> shachäf
07:03:40 <Mr2001> zzo38: nope
07:03:41 <shachaf> Huh.
07:03:55 <shachaf> Famicom is approximately NES, right?
07:04:06 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it uses the same chipset.
07:04:10 <shachaf> `forget ol
07:04:12 <HackEgo> Forget what?
07:04:20 <shachaf> `5 w
07:04:25 <HackEgo> 1/2:glados//Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Computer Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave. \ piet//Piet is a really colourful programming language. \ of//Of this incident we shall never speak again. \ tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so plea
07:04:28 <shachaf> `n
07:04:29 <HackEgo> 2/2:se stop using them. That would help. \ rntz//rntz is a classically-trained logician known for his constructive criticism.
07:04:56 <zzo38> You can see http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/ it is a copy of the official rules of Magic: the Gathering; they also have on there all of the changes to the rules since Ravnica.
07:05:06 <zzo38> So you can see what has been changed each time.
07:05:17 <shachaf> I didn't play in Ravnica. I first started playing in Return to Ravnica.
07:05:35 <zzo38> Since some time ago, I have looked at every change.
07:05:37 <shachaf> `? ravnica
07:05:38 <HackEgo> Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name.
07:05:41 <zzo38> shachaf: They have that too.
07:06:28 <zzo38> You can see on http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/ the lists of all changes between any version and the previous version.
07:06:51 <shachaf> Oh, this is pretty good.
07:06:57 <shachaf> Once upon a time I knew the rules of this game reasonably well.
07:07:07 <shachaf> I got a Rules Advisor certification.
07:07:08 <zzo38> (They also link to the official explanations from Wizards of the Coast, in the cases where this is available.)
07:07:13 <shachaf> But I didn't renew it.
07:07:20 <shachaf> Now it looks like it's been discocntinued.
07:08:25 <zzo38> I have not actually played Magic: the Gathering in many years, but have still kept track of all of the rule changes.
07:08:33 <shachaf> Mr2001: Did you play Factorio?
07:08:58 <shachaf> That game is TG
07:09:32 <shachaf> `5 w
07:09:37 <HackEgo> 1/3://everyone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) \ a
07:09:53 <shachaf> `n
07:09:54 <HackEgo> 2/3:tm//An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info. \ palate//Palate is usually a metaphor for a person's preferences about food or drink. \ hand injury//Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://
07:10:06 <shachaf> `xxd wisdom/spout
07:10:07 <HackEgo> xxd: wisdom/spout: No such file or directory
07:10:11 <shachaf> er
07:10:15 <shachaf> `xxd tmp/spout
07:10:16 <HackEgo> 0000000: 032f 2f03 3038 6576 0331 3465 7279 6f6e .//.08ev.14eryon \ 0000010: 653a 2057 656c 636f 6d65 2074 6f20 7468 e: Welcome to th \ 0000020: 6520 696e 7465 726e 6174 696f 6e61 6c20 e international \ 0000030: 0331 3268 7562 2066 6f72 2065 736f 7465 .12hub for esote \ 0000040: 7269 6303 3134 2070 726f 0330 3367 7261 ric.14 pro.03gra \ 00000
07:10:32 <shachaf> `` echo '' | xxd
07:10:32 <HackEgo> 0000000: 030a ..
07:10:43 <shachaf> `cwlprits
07:10:50 <HackEgo> Rouj̈o Rouj̈o
07:10:57 <shachaf> Hmm.
07:11:05 <shachaf> I declare this too confusing.
07:11:07 <shachaf> `forget
07:11:09 <HackEgo> Forget what?
07:11:51 <shachaf> `n
07:11:52 <HackEgo> 3/3:www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html \ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯//¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is the ¯\(°​_o)/¯ of urbandictionary
07:12:00 <zzo38> I have also invented many of my own Magic: the Gathering cards, including both proper and Un-cards
07:13:12 <zzo38> Did you make up some of such thing too please?
07:13:32 <shachaf> I don't think so.
07:13:41 <shachaf> Did you invent any planeswalker cards?
07:14:12 <zzo38> I have had some ideas but not been able to make anything that seems reasonable.
07:14:44 <zzo38> (I had ideas including even Aura planeswalkers and planeswalker lands.)
07:15:04 <shachaf> What about a planeswalker with plainswalk?
07:15:41 <zzo38> I have not done, although it could be, if it were a planeswalker creature. (If is not a creature then plainswalk is not so helpful)
07:16:04 <shachaf> Well, another card might make it into a creature.
07:16:19 <zzo38> Yes, I know that too.
07:17:06 <zzo38> It can make the list http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php?do=list of the card I made up (although I also had many additional ideas not listed on there), and also the Un-cards game is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/uncards.txt too.
07:17:20 <shachaf> For a long time I thought the way you cast a spell in Magic: The Gathering was to put karma into your karma pool, and then cast the spell with it.
07:18:10 <zzo38> O, that is how you thought. OK
07:18:27 <shachaf> But I was wrong.
07:18:51 <shachaf> You should make up some cards that, to be used, require people to learn obscure rules.
07:19:23 <pikhq> I mean, they already exist, so there's precedent. :)
07:19:44 <zzo38> I have sometimes come up with such ideas, although not really for that reason; it just happens to turn out obscurely!
07:19:46 <shachaf> I mean, by design.
07:20:22 <zzo38> O, that is what you mean. That does not seems the things to base the design on to me, I think?
07:20:26 <shachaf> How can you make up a card that requires the player to know this rule?
07:20:37 <shachaf> I know you can do it as an interaction of a few cards.
07:21:02 <zzo38> If it turns out obscurely though I don't really care so much I think it is OK.
07:22:13 <zzo38> Do you like any of this custom cards? Maybe you can make up a new one too.
07:22:38 <shachaf> Maybe you should use Hack instead of PHP for your custom card website.
07:23:50 <shachaf> Zeux Agem?
07:23:53 <zzo38> It is already PHP though. I wanted to use SQL, but, it doesn't do as a CGI so instead is a PHP code that includes some SQL codes. This SQL database can be downloaded too though if you want to download it and query it by your own SQL commands.
07:23:54 <shachaf> Potion of Confusing?!
07:25:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Is that a question? It does not look like a very good question to me.
07:26:01 <shachaf> "If it is any player's birthday today, that player wins the game."
07:26:16 <shachaf> What happens if it's the birthday of more than one player?
07:26:43 <zzo38> Then all of those player are win the game.
07:27:20 <shachaf> Who wins the ante in that case?
07:28:34 <zzo38> The rule would be probably that you end in a draw, and so the owners of ante is not affected in that case I would think.
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07:30:02 <zzo38> (Although rules about ante is another rule I wanted to change anyways; the current rule has many kinds of problems. I have seen one suggestion where the ante zone is shared across subgames, and I like that idea, although it does not fix everything, I still like that idea; someone even explained a way to use that feature to make a puzzle!)
07:30:14 <shachaf> What about "Everybody is the Winner!", though?
07:31:06 <zzo38> Well, I suppose there is no answer. Or perhaps those objects are then having multiple owners.
07:32:07 <zzo38> Some of the Un-cards are just unanswerable.
07:32:48 <shachaf> But what if you played an Un-card enchantment that said "All Un-cards are answerable."?
07:33:56 <zzo38> Then you would have to make up a strange answer, I suppose. I don't know!
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07:41:30 <zzo38> There is no proper rule in Un-cards, only improper rules. But, many people have tried to argue how R&D's Secret Lair affects many things. There is something I thought of with using with the old Lightning Bolt, that it seem nobody on Gatherer has ever considered, which is to use it to damage all nontoken permanents that are creatures or planeswalkers.
07:42:51 <shachaf> If I said a function was a "proper injection", would you know what I meant?
07:44:04 <zzo38> No, at least not yet.
07:44:18 <shachaf> I mean a function which is an injection but not a bijection.
07:44:20 <zzo38> In context it might be clear though.
07:44:44 <zzo38> I did think of that, but still I did not know for sure.
07:45:25 <shachaf> What if I said "proper monomorphism"?
07:46:12 <zzo38> Again I am not sure, but would try to think of something similar.
07:47:00 <shachaf> What if I said "proper subobject"?
07:47:04 <zzo38> In context it may become clear though; I think if you used "proper injection" in a context like that it would be clear what it is meaning.
07:47:31 <zzo38> I don't know quite all of the mathematics, and I don't know what "subobject" is being
07:47:36 <zzo38> (But, I can look it up)
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07:47:55 <shachaf> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/subobject
07:48:02 <zzo38> (So, it does not matter so much that I will not know.)
07:48:19 <shachaf> I usually think a subobject is a monomorphism. But it's actually an equivalence class of monomorphisms. Why is that?
07:48:30 <shachaf> I mean an isomorphism class.
07:50:35 <zzo38> I read it, and I do not know the answer of your question.
07:50:52 <shachaf> Do you like subobjects?
07:51:04 <zzo38> (Especially now that I am a bit tired, I don't know. I don't know that one either right now.)
07:52:14 <shachaf> Do you like quotient objects?
07:52:55 <zzo38> These questions are I just don't know at this time; I am a bit tired now, it is late time now.
07:53:18 <shachaf> I see.
07:54:40 <zzo38> I did get recently a book from library, which is The Art of Computer Programming volume 7 fascicle 0. I like this book.
07:55:05 <shachaf> Did you find any errors?
07:55:22 <shachaf> If you find errors, you can get a check from the author.
07:55:27 <shachaf> I got one once.
07:55:29 <zzo38> Not yet.
07:55:44 <zzo38> And I do know about that payment for errors.
07:55:54 <shachaf> Mine wasn't for an error, though.
07:56:10 <shachaf> He thought it wasn't an error, and then he called up Ken Thompson and he agreed that it wasn't an error.
07:56:25 <shachaf> So then he put in a «"rant"», and I got a check for that.
07:57:12 <shachaf> kmc: you should fuzz TeX with afl and see whether you can get a check
07:58:15 <kmc> lol
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11:40:31 <boily> @metar CYUL
11:40:31 <lambdabot> CYUL 081000Z 26008KT 30SM FEW015 FEW035 BKN200 02/M01 A2974 RMK CF1SC1CC5 CF TR SLP074
11:41:00 <boily> @metar ENVA
11:41:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 081020Z 30011KT 9999 FEW045 BKN050 05/M05 Q1028 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 29011KT
11:41:11 <boily> @metar KATL
11:41:12 <lambdabot> KATL 080952Z 28004KT 10SM CLR 11/06 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP177 T01110061
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13:04:40 <yorick> shachaf: what's happening
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17:08:26 <rdococ> hi
17:10:40 <sdhand> hello rdococ
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17:16:12 <shachaf> yorick: ?
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17:31:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braingolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51881&oldid=51855 * Mayube * (+1007) /* Operators */
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17:53:12 <zzo38> Do you like my new kind of the VLQ? The new kind is like the ordinary VLQ but if the high bit is set then you must subtract 127 instead of subtract 128.
17:54:38 <shachaf> Why?
17:55:27 <zzo38> Some numbers can encode shorter and the redundancy of leading zeroes is avoided too.
17:55:52 <shachaf> I was just talking to someone about some sort of encoding the other day.
17:56:11 <shachaf> It was this: https://github.com/mortehu/libcolumnfile/blob/master/src/columnfile.h
17:56:14 <shachaf> Do you like this?
17:56:26 <zzo38> I will look
17:58:01 <zzo38> I think it can be good for some kinds of data perhaps.
18:00:26 <zzo38> It still has the redundant encoding though.
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18:22:46 <Mr2001> 127? why not 126?
18:27:19 <Mr2001> that sounds equivalent to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-length_quantity#Removing_Redundancy
18:29:07 <shachaf> Oh, so it does.
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18:37:52 <zzo38> O, yes, it is
18:39:42 <int-e> shachaf: wah, there's a level without a grill
18:41:40 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr-dead-end.jpg
18:42:01 <shachaf> int-e: It's not hidden behind the column or anything?
18:42:07 <int-e> (but I have half a dozen unsolved levels left on *that* island.
18:42:11 <int-e> no, it's not.
18:42:27 <shachaf> I should get this running again.
18:43:33 <int-e> I guess those glowing pixels do something, I have not seen those anywhere before, I think.
18:49:18 <int-e> that half dozen is actually 9 or 10
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19:02:13 <hppavilion[1]> `? cat
19:02:14 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
19:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to design a programming language where the grammar can't be parsed to an Abstract Syntax Tree, but rather an Abstract Syntax Digraph
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19:18:29 <zzo38> I am not sure how that is going to work, although RDF does something a bit similar (although not quite).
19:29:26 <int-e> I imagine you could glue paper strips together
19:30:39 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Perhaps
19:31:02 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I know how to represent it in a computer, the issue is just how to make a proper syntax :P
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19:37:00 <shachaf> int-e: I looked up that puzzle because I'm not on that island yet and can't run the game in the near future, but now I'm disappointed that I looked it up because it's a good puzzle.
19:38:22 <int-e> I have an idea or two, but first I want to find out whether solving the remaining puzzles on the island changes anything...
19:38:38 <int-e> ...which I'll get around to eventually.
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19:39:31 <int-e> but thanks for the info that it is a puzzle
19:40:19 <int-e> and sorry for tempting you to spoil it for you...
19:40:29 <int-e> ...though I didn't intend that.
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20:51:46 <wob_jonas> ais523, I summon you
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21:01:03 <zzo38> Here I made a list of some of the composite modes in my Farbfeld Utilities program: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ff-composite (There are a lot more!) Do you think this is good? You can tell me if there is other stuff too that should be had, and see whether or not it is already implemented but not documented, or if it is not implemented either.
21:01:35 <int-e> wob_jonas: why would you do such a thing?
21:03:57 <zzo38> There is the ability to treat the alpha channel as the depth buffer if you want to, as well.
21:04:19 <zzo38> And there is another mode to treat each pixel as a quaternion.
21:14:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in that docs, are these only the special modes that aren't composed from a way to handle alpha and a way to handle opacity?
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21:35:31 <yorick> `w
21:35:33 <HackEgo> welcome.bork//Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <http://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon IFnet oor DELnet.)
21:35:45 <yorick> how does it work
21:35:52 <shachaf> `? yorick
21:35:53 <HackEgo> We know nothing about yorick, alas.
21:36:00 <yorick> it hilighted me today
21:36:09 <yorick> well yeah, that.
21:36:12 <shachaf> `4 w
21:36:14 <zzo38> wob_jonas: These are some of them, anyways. The other ones with numbers 64 and higher are composed of different options for handling opacity and handling colours and so on, and I have not listed any of those.
21:36:17 <HackEgo> 1/1:istr//istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc. \ eurovision//Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing. \ citation//Citation needed \ beethoven's ninth symphony//Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files.
21:36:50 <zzo38> If you know how the document should be written for such thing, then you could add those modes.
21:37:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: right. those ones are combined from a duff-porter mode that handles the transparency, and a composition mode that handles the color value
21:38:10 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes. Those ones you are talking about are all numbered 64 and higher.
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21:41:00 <wob_jonas> though I don't quite get how those work. the low bits control the composition modes, that's clear, and those dense few lines in the definitions of F and FF somehow handle the duff-porter thing.
21:41:07 <wob_jonas> But aren't there like 16 duff-porter modes?
21:41:12 <wob_jonas> Or only 8?
21:41:17 <wob_jonas> Let me look this up.
21:41:46 <zzo38> They aren't only duff-porter modes; it includes many other kinds too.
21:42:09 <wob_jonas> there are 12... wtf
21:43:53 <wob_jonas> oh right, there are 2*2*3 modes: one bit controls whether the places where the destination image is transparent should be transparent or get the color of the source image, one bit controls the places where the source image is transparent,
21:44:25 <wob_jonas> and one trit controls whether the places where both images are opaque becomes transparent, or get composed, or get composed in reverse.
21:46:54 <wob_jonas> Of these, the first two bits are controlled by bits 9 and 10 in the mode in ff-composite,
21:52:55 <wob_jonas> I think you don't have a swapped composition mode; but if you clear bit 8 and set the low bits to 2, that should make it behave like the duff-porter modes that clear the intersection.
21:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, explain nom to me pls
21:54:35 <zzo38> I based it on the description that is used in the SVG documentation.
21:56:21 <wob_jonas> And as for the low bits, 0 and 1 are source and destination, 3 is saturating add (useful for composing an antialiased polygon mash to a black background if you know the polygons are pairwise non-intersecting), 23 and 28 are subtract,
21:57:36 <wob_jonas> (low bits) is darken only, 7 is lighten only, 4 is multiply, 5 is screen, and there's more.
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21:57:52 <zzo38> You should edit that linked wiki page if you think you know how to best describe them.
21:58:02 <shachaf> `dowg citation
21:58:09 <HackEgo> 10799:2017-04-22 <oerjän> learn Citation needed \ 6816:2016-02-11 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn citation/needed
21:58:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not comfortable with reading your code and I'm lazy to test this stuff now. I'd probably make lots of errors.
21:59:03 <zzo38> Ah, OK.
21:59:20 <zzo38> Although if mistakes are made it is not too bad since they can be fixed.
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22:05:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: which ff utility generates a picture with a uniform argb color, given the color and the size as inputs?
22:06:09 <zzo38> You can use ff-gradient with the width, height, "h", and the color.
22:06:34 <zzo38> You can also use ff-chess with the color twice. There are other possibilities too.
22:06:39 <wob_jonas> I see. That can be useful as a compositing background
22:07:12 <zzo38> Yes, although if you want the usual kind of composition against a solid background, ff-back may be better.
22:08:44 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I want composition of multiple smaller images to a larger solid background, the background might be opaque of some color or transparent.
22:09:06 <wob_jonas> ff-back doesn't help, because it can't enlarge an image
22:09:17 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't used nom, sorry
22:09:19 <zzo38> In that case then yes, just using ff-gradient or ff-chess to make the background can help.
22:09:21 <kmc> are you using it for something?
22:09:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i started on that cs171 course for the sake of doing something
22:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> so about 10 seconds into writing an objfile parser i was overwhelmed with the thought that "surely this is why we invented general abstract parser nonsense"
22:10:57 <wob_jonas> Ah, ff-bright is the one that does gamma correction.
22:11:37 <zzo38> Yes, and http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=Documentation has a list with short descriptions (not all of the individual documents per programs exist yet though, but some do).
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22:12:21 <wob_jonas> I still mostly feel like I don't want to spend much on ff utils, because ImageMagick does almost everything with an interface that I find more convenient, and for the few things missing, I'd rather fix ImageMagick when I need it, since it already has lots of useful APIs.
22:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> from my brief experience with rust the #1 problem is that there is the obvious way of doing it, and a shorter, cleaner, more robust way that you'll be able to figure out after reading just a few more docs
22:13:10 <zzo38> Well, ImageMagick can have things to be fixed too, so if you know how to contribute to that then you can do that too.
22:13:43 <wob_jonas> I don't necessarily have to contribute (as in, send code back to the mainstream), just use their apis.
22:15:35 <zzo38> O, OK. (Still, if there is something missing, it could help to mention to them at least. Same as true with my farbfeld programs; it could help to mention at least if something seem missing. One thing is that I think ImageMagick does not even support farbfeld, although it seem to me that for completeness it probably should.)
22:15:45 <wob_jonas> And while there are some stupid problems with ImageMagick, as in, sometimes their programs are buggy for no apparent reason, they're just not enough problems to override the convenience I get most of the time.
22:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> didn't imagemagick have some really ridiculous security hole
22:16:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ah yes https://imagetragick.com/
22:16:44 <wob_jonas> PH: many programs that handle like hundreds of formats with various plugins from different sources have security holes. I don't know why people pick on IM in particular.
22:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> a stand-out work in the wonderful medium of vuln branding
22:17:06 <zzo38> Well, if the program does what you need to do then you can use that and it can work. However, I write program using farbfeld instead, and now it can be another alternative.
22:17:10 <wob_jonas> They can hate all the browsers or mail agents that let you open files from the internet with default-assigned applications instead.
22:17:53 <zzo38> wob_jonas: And it can avoid that problem too because the programs to alter the pictures are different from the program to encode/decode, and each one only does one, so it avoids that, at least.
22:18:11 <zzo38> (Also, you only need to download and compile the stuff you need, instead of everything.)
22:18:15 <wob_jonas> PH: also, in practice, I've seen ffmpeg misbehave in way more serious ways for untrusted input files than I've seen ImageMagick do so.
22:18:31 <wob_jonas> This may depend on how you use them of course.
22:19:20 <zzo38> I have never used ffmpeg so I don't know, although I also haven't tried using improper input files with ImageMagick either, so I don't know that either.
22:19:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: IM can be configured easily for which plugins to use, and for each input, I can tell what format to expect, in which case it won't try another plugin.
22:20:20 <zzo38> Yes, I know it can be specified for ImageMagick what format to use.
22:20:43 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well, it might be because I open video files only in ffmpeg (IM can open them with the ffmpeg plugin too, but only if the whole raw data fits in virtual memory, which is not a typical use case), whereas I open images in both,
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22:21:42 <wob_jonas> and video formats are more prone to problems because people never bother to use newer image formats than age old jpeg and png, but they do all sorts of new video formats with new more efficient hardware-optimized encoders and decoders all the time, so it's no surprise we get bugs in those.
22:22:30 <wob_jonas> If people distributed images in all sorts of rare formats and I tried to open those, then sure, I would get the same problems. But I only get images in rare formats when they're raw images straight from consumer cameras.
22:23:24 <wob_jonas> I would like people to use newer image formats, but it's not easy to make people change what works.
22:23:58 <wob_jonas> (and by "newer", I mean 15 year old formats as opposed to 30 year old ones)
22:24:13 <Phantom_Hoover> are there even any newer image formats
22:24:13 <wob_jonas> (at least. ideally even develop newer ones.)
22:24:26 <wob_jonas> PH: sure. a good one is JPEG2000.
22:24:41 <zzo38> I know of FLIF, and have had some of my own ideas too for making a compressed pictures format too
22:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> seems an obvious case where there's no serious pressure towards more efficient image transfer
22:25:15 <wob_jonas> (and of course there are all sorts of new image formats that aren't really intended for final distribution, but mainly for a single image editor, but those don't count here.)
22:26:01 <wob_jonas> PH: this is mostly under control for the people who make browsers. if the major browsers decide to support a video format or an image format, then people will use it.
22:26:20 <zzo38> Well, there is then also farbfeld, which also (in my opinion) aren't really intended for final distribution either, but not only for a single image editor but for all image editors!
22:26:46 <wob_jonas> but currently they don't support anything but jpeg and png and gif and a few older ones that are obsoleted by those
22:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose gifs were ubiquitous until a couple of years ago and are only slowly being displaced
22:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> so image stuff really does move slow
22:27:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure. IM has two formats intended for only IM too. gimp has its own save format, and so does corel's two image editors and adobe's two image editors and whatever.
22:27:53 <wob_jonas> PH: gifs these days are mostly used as a sort of video replacement. people no longer use gifs for static images, because png is better for that.
22:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> that's what i meant
22:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> even though they're terrible for encoding video
22:28:26 <zzo38> Yes, although they are intended only for those programs; farbfeld can be use for hopefully any encoder/decoder/editors rather than only one.
22:30:20 <wob_jonas> yes, and obviously imagemagick and ffmpeg have plugins for lots of image format, and so does gimp and krita and the adobe and corel editors, to various extents,
22:31:07 <zzo38> Yes they certainly do. Someone even made a farbfeld plugin for use with GIMP, but I think is not very good because it can only read/write files and not pipes.
22:31:09 <wob_jonas> and when they're missing plugins, then you chain two different programs with some raw format between them, only you sometimes have to handle metadata by hand in that case.
22:31:50 <wob_jonas> And the same thing happens with sound and video too. I've chained different image software, different video software, and different audio software at least once.
22:32:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: WebP is a modern image format.
22:32:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: hmm, there's some truth in that
22:32:52 <zzo38> One of the things I did intend to add in future into the PNG encoder is to be able to use metadata from another PNG file.
22:32:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Good afternizzie
22:33:21 <zzo38> It seem to me that FLIF is work better than WebP though, isn't it?
22:33:42 <wob_jonas> It's possible that some video formats are modern image formats too.
22:34:47 <fizzie> Well, WebP can do lossy as well. No idea how lossless WebP and FLIF compare.
22:34:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: but webp isn't _yet_ supported by major browsers, right? it's just a good candidate that might be in the future
22:35:11 <fizzie> Not all major browsers, no.
22:35:29 <fizzie> And I think Mozilla may have abandoned their plans.
22:35:53 <wob_jonas> Is there software yet that lets me compress images to webp in such a way that a small part (a few rectangular ranges) of the image is compressed in better quality than most?
22:36:36 <wob_jonas> Because that's what I really want from an image format, but JPEG makes it really hard, because you can't just change the quantization matrix for just a rectangular region, and if you use a small quantization matrix for the whole image, then it doesn't compress well enough.
22:37:23 <wob_jonas> It's possible that you could distribute an image as x264-encoded video like that, with special encoding software.
22:37:30 <wob_jonas> Browsers could display that.
22:37:38 <zzo38> FLIF is a lossless format, but the encoder also has a lossy mode. How might it be done to make lossy alterations into a picture to make it compress better as PNG?
22:38:21 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It would not be very good I think, since it is a video not a picture. However, such HTTP headers as Accept and so on could be used to make the server automatically know which format you want I suppose.
22:38:46 <wob_jonas> The problem with old formats is that even if they compress well, they aren't designed such that they are easy to encode and decode quickly on modern machines. They're designed to be easy to decode and encode on old machines.
22:40:16 <zzo38> Make up the new HTTP header Accept-Soft-Limit to tell the server to try to limit to that many bytes if is reasonable to do so.
22:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> Um. Testing.
22:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm.
22:42:44 <wob_jonas> hppavilion: pong
22:42:58 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: For some reason I can't talk in ##programming
22:43:26 <\oren\> why does emacs need ten megs to edit a file that is only 800 BYTES in size?
22:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> It can't be because I'm not identified; I just identified
22:43:33 <\oren\> richard stallman is a total moron
22:43:36 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: emacs
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22:44:02 <\oren\> holy shit ten megabytes for each and every file my coworker has open
22:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> Everyone here knows wordsearches, I assume
22:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if, when generating a wordsearch, which of the following makes it more difficult:
22:45:16 <hppavilion[1]> 1. Filling in the random letters (those not involved in a searchable word) with equal probability- just as many z's and q's as t's and e's
22:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> 2. Filling in the random letters with the same distribution as the assumed language of the search (obviously, interlingual searches require either a weighted mean or just taking option (1))
22:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> So in an English search with no words, there'd be (on average) substantially more e's and t's than q's and z's
22:56:50 <\oren\> so yeah I think my tests will succeed now that I've politely asked my coworker to kill some of the 238 emacsen he had open
22:58:27 <wob_jonas> 238 emacsen?
22:58:40 <wob_jonas> can't he have just a few emacsen, with multiple buffers in them?
22:58:57 <shachaf> \oren\: Why are you running your tests on the same machine as your editor?
22:59:07 <shachaf> Have you considered fixing your build and test system?
22:59:32 <shachaf> scowhound
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23:00:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no he's not. his co-worker is running his editors on the production machine where the tests are supposed to be ran. that's obviously not oren's fault.
23:00:41 <\oren\> I also run my editors on the same machine
23:01:11 <wob_jonas> running editors is ok, but 238 of them when they take 10 megabytes each is a lot.
23:01:12 <\oren\> But I use nano, which doesn't take a separate 10 megabytes process for each file that is open
23:01:25 <wob_jonas> If I open many files, I open them in just few editors.
23:01:30 <wob_jonas> (I don't use emacs though.)
23:02:11 <\oren\> I still say this is all richard stallman's fault.
23:02:27 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yep.
23:02:55 <wob_jonas> at least your coworker fixed the problem when you asked. that's a good thing.
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23:03:13 <\oren\> I think he wasn't even aware that so many were open
23:03:27 <\oren\> a lot of them were started months ago
23:03:50 <\oren\> which raises bigger questions of course
23:03:59 <shachaf> one little, two little, three little emacsen
23:04:09 <shachaf> \oren\: you should fix your test and build infrastructure
23:05:02 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
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23:06:41 <\oren\> oh, he's got the population down to 30
23:06:55 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...).
23:08:31 <\oren\> wow, look at all this memory, how beautiful its empty expanse, like a sea beneath the stars
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23:23:39 <boily> `w
23:23:40 <HackEgo> fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
23:27:48 <boily> @test
23:27:49 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell list let leet
23:27:58 <boily> `test
23:27:59 <HackEgo> No output.
23:28:06 <boily> okay, everything's fine.
23:28:19 * boily stares at his uncooperative modem
23:28:25 <wob_jonas> what?
23:28:39 <wob_jonas> boily: no, not fine. that command returned false exit code.
23:28:48 <shachaf> `cat bin/test
23:28:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/test: No such file or directory
23:28:57 <shachaf> `mkx bin/test//kill -9 $$
23:28:59 <wob_jonas> HackEgo doesn't tell you the exit code, only the stdout
23:28:59 <HackEgo> bin/test
23:29:01 <shachaf> `test
23:29:01 <HackEgo> Killed
23:29:08 <wob_jonas> HEY!
23:29:10 <wob_jonas> don't do taht
23:29:13 <wob_jonas> please
23:29:20 <shachaf> I'm sure it won't break anything.
23:29:25 <boily> `w
23:29:26 <HackEgo> nœd//Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
23:29:30 <wob_jonas> don't create exes with name the same as common unix utilities, unless they're compatible. it's rude.
23:29:32 <shachaf> `mkx bin/test//kill -9 $PPID
23:29:34 <HackEgo> bin/test
23:29:39 <wob_jonas> seriously
23:29:40 <wob_jonas> delete that
23:29:42 <wob_jonas> or rename
23:29:44 <boily> helloochaf! ^^
23:29:48 <shachaf> Why?
23:30:00 <shachaf> HackEgo is not supposed to be a reliable environment.
23:30:09 <wob_jonas> sure, but still, that's just rude
23:30:10 <shachaf> It's supposed to defy your expectations in subtle ways.
23:30:17 <wob_jonas> could cause hard to debug problems
23:30:21 <shachaf> Exactly!
23:30:31 <wob_jonas> if you want to defy expectations, make them in such a way that are easy to debug
23:30:34 <boily> HackEgo is extremely sturdy. it has, like +9 resistance.
23:30:57 <wob_jonas> boily: that doesn't protect from spells it casts on itself
23:32:51 <shachaf> `mkx bin/test//[[ $((RANDOM % 5)) -eq 0 ]] && /bin/test "$@" || kill -9 $$
23:32:53 <HackEgo> bin/test
23:33:00 <shachaf> Better? Now it's 80% reliable.
23:33:47 <shachaf> > logBase 10 (0.2)
23:33:49 <lambdabot> -0.6989700043360187
23:34:02 <shachaf> That's only 7 dB of unreliability
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23:49:44 <shachaf> `grwp integral
23:49:46 <HackEgo> brainfuck:brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array \ jerk:Jerk is the integral of snap.
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23:58:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I've never thought to ask: what's the derivative of the family of terrible esolangs?
23:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> `cwlprits brainfuck
23:58:13 <HackEgo> oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] oerjän oerjän oerjän
00:02:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
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00:44:57 <oerjan> <izabera> how about using httpseverywhere . o O ( no, that's definitely too long... )
00:45:03 <oerjan> oops
00:45:15 <oerjan> *+ <--
00:45:37 <shachaf> `5 w
00:45:41 <HackEgo> 1/2:tanec//Why would there be a Tanec, that's ridiculous! \ d//D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language. \ metasepia//metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks. \ kallisti//kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity. \ llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychw
00:45:44 <shachaf> `n
00:45:44 <HackEgo> 2/2:yrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch//Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a village in Wales.
00:49:38 * oerjan wonders what shachaf changed in the topic
00:49:52 <shachaf> I removed the first section and also something else.
00:50:00 <shachaf> I removed ?dl=0 in the wisdom pdf
00:50:11 <shachaf> I thought people agreed to remove the wisdom pdf entirely? But it keeps coming back so maybe not.
00:50:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hubby | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
00:50:32 <oerjan> i think you hallucinated people agreeing hth
00:50:53 <wob_jonas> `? pdf
00:50:55 <HackEgo> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
00:50:59 <wob_jonas> `? wisdom.pdf
00:51:00 <HackEgo> Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
00:51:08 <wob_jonas> as long as it's in wisdom, you don't need it in the topic
00:51:38 <oerjan> except that link is wrong
00:52:53 <oerjan> `slwd wisdom.pdf//s,htt.*,https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf,
00:52:54 <HackEgo> wisdom.pdf//Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
00:53:39 <oerjan> `? wisdom
00:53:41 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
00:54:11 <wob_jonas> Maybe wisdom/pdf should be edited to include the link instead
00:58:08 <oerjan> `randquote zzo38
00:58:09 <HackEgo> 778) <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
00:59:01 <shachaf> Oh, that's a good one.
00:59:35 <shachaf> `` ln -s randquote bin/rq
00:59:37 <HackEgo> No output.
00:59:42 <shachaf> `rq zzo38
00:59:43 <HackEgo> 987) <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta.
00:59:50 <shachaf> `rq zzo38
00:59:50 <HackEgo> 1287) <zzo38> [...] I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU. [...]
01:00:43 <shachaf> oh man, it was zzo38 all along
01:01:00 <FireFly> `rq
01:01:01 <HackEgo> 1083) <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range
01:01:35 <shachaf> `rq zzo38
01:01:39 <HackEgo> 26) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
01:01:52 <shachaf> FireFly: Do you like pollution markets?
01:03:25 <FireFly> dunno
01:04:41 <wob_jonas> `quote
01:04:43 <HackEgo> 1263) <lambdabot> "on the oehtr hadn, sinortg olny the ideinss of wdors is pceeflrty raabdeel,... <fizzie> Well, maybe pceeflrty is a bit too strong a word here.
01:05:45 <FireFly> it took me too long to figure out "sinortg" :\
01:06:03 <oerjan> `? ginorst
01:06:04 <HackEgo> Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
01:07:49 <wob_jonas> `quote
01:07:49 <HackEgo> 1152) <Sgeo> I have got to be less casual about typing rm -rf /
01:07:59 <wob_jonas> `quote rm -
01:08:00 <HackEgo> 1152) <Sgeo> I have got to be less casual about typing rm -rf /
01:08:04 <FireFly> oerjan: aallnrtuy
01:12:45 <wob_jonas> ``` starwars;recipe
01:12:47 <HackEgo> Captain Phasma \ and boil until light brown. \ \ Combine sugar and olive oil and oregano. Remove chops. Break off \ doors along with tomatoes. Bake at 350 F for 45 minutes. Serve hot. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: HONEY PEPPER (LA]) \ Categories: Diabetic, Fish, Chicken \ Yield: 4 Servings \ \
01:12:55 <wob_jonas> `quote
01:12:55 <HackEgo> 446) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
01:19:49 <\oren\> Xd dX DX XD