00:04:42 <Sgeo> Is covfefe just the dual of a vfefe?
00:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWELSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52030&oldid=52023 * Timtomtoaster * (+245)
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00:15:23 <myname> what the hell even is covfefe
00:17:06 <\oren\> covfefe was a word coined by doland trump last night when he tweeted
00:17:25 <\oren\> Despite the constant negative press covfefe
00:20:11 <oerjan> and PPCG already has a challenge based on it.
00:25:25 <oerjan> a canaiman slipped past our filter, i see. with the same old Marcela Gandera nick
00:26:03 <oerjan> it does seem unlikely it's not the same person, although that _is_ a celebrity around there.
00:27:11 <HackEgo> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
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00:47:55 <izabera> telnet arin.ga 44444 </spam>
00:56:02 <boily> izabellora, rdochelloc.
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01:44:32 <HackEgo> fact//Facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
01:44:54 <HackEgo> 1/1:pointfree//Pointfree programming sounds better than pointless programming. \ alphabet//Alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google. \ alogl//ALOGL is a logarithmic language. \ braid theory//Braid theory is the extremely twisted theory of braids.
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01:56:49 <zzo38> izabera: I tried it
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02:00:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52031&oldid=52006 * Timtomtoaster * (+950)
02:02:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52032&oldid=52031 * Timtomtoaster * (+53)
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02:18:19 <HackEgo> 1/3:wlcom//Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)welcome.fr//Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visi
02:20:16 <HackEgo> 2/3:tez le wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.) \ amortized//An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember. \ currying//Functions are curried by taking curry(f). \ irc//IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed fro
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02:24:19 <boily> mmm watch relays ♪
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03:17:00 <zzo38> Now I made program "ff-elementary" to make elementary cellular automaton, and "ff-swizzle" to swizzle the channels.
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04:42:07 <zzo38> I found a PDF file "pocorgtfo14.pdf", which can be opened by "unzip" (although tab-completion does not work, probably because it expects a ".zip" suffix and it doesn't have it), but 7-Zip cannot open it. It also has a proper iNES header, but mednafen won't open it either. Furthermore, it contains the document about commanding one of the cheap toys for the new Pokemon game, and also about process sending message only by memory reading (not by writin
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06:33:40 <zzo38> The ff-elementary program can still be used to make up a lot of different kind of pattern in combination with other programs, even with simple rules.
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06:49:24 <zzo38> See what kind of stuff you can make up with these programs. If you find something interest, perhaps to post as the example on wiki
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11:08:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52033&oldid=52032 * Timtomtoaster * (+21)
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11:25:22 <LKoen> do you guys know how to pronounce "formulae" (plural of formula) in proper english?
11:25:37 <LKoen> I pronounce it something like "formula-ey"
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12:05:27 <HackEgo> char//Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
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12:13:14 <erkin> we need a coal type
12:15:20 <boily> hellorkin. everything can be a type.
12:19:02 <erkin> is mayonnaise a type
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17:47:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stestoltz * New user account
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19:03:07 <FireFly> zzo38: pocorgtfo issues tend to be polyglots, yeah
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19:53:17 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45MySnotCGA
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20:55:15 <wob_jonas> I see! So while both memory cards are "class 10" SDHC cards, the large one actually only does 45 MB/s, while the small one does 90 MB/s, and I think this is the read speed. The write speed is noticably faster in the large one:
20:55:43 <wob_jonas> with the large one, I sometimes had to wait for a second until the camera writes the photo to the card, with the small one, I don't have to.
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21:03:23 <HackEgo> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
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21:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Weird, My school blocks it, and the reason it gives is "prohibited advertisements content"
21:14:44 <wob_jonas> hpp: is that one of those blockers that blocks any url that matches "ad" or "sex" anywhere (even inside a word)?
21:15:33 <\oren\> maybe it blocks it because the chinese characters 卍卐 appear on the page?
21:17:07 <\oren\> nuclear waste assesment team?
21:45:37 <rdococ> banana banaana banaaana banaaaana
21:47:49 <HackEgo> 1/2:freenode//The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago? \ wisdom//wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? \ mycology//mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewi
21:47:54 <HackEgo> 2/2:ant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/ \ batch//Batch is a language that uses the command cls. \ ghost//A ghost is an unintelligent undead, similar to the skeleton but harder to create, because it's lacking the rest of the body.
21:48:13 <HackEgo> mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
21:49:21 <HackEgo> 1/2:`ngevd//The `ngevd command hasn't been invented yet, but still manages to prevent bugs. \ html//HTML is short for "hope this mess loads". \ ehlist//ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/ \ pike//Pike is an interpreted language that got sort of forgotten among the four big mainstream p-lan
21:49:25 <HackEgo> 2/2:guages (perl, python, ruby, php). \ certainty//We don't know what certainty is for sure, but we have certainty that it isn't a functor.
21:50:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you certain it isn't a functor?
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22:06:27 <kmc> ashachaf: yes
22:22:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Xav737]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52034 * Xav737 * (+288) Created page with "Hello! I am an esolang enthusiast who decided to take on the task of creating interpreters / compilers for some of these documented languages. At the time of this writing, all..."
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23:19:10 <\oren\> I thought mello yello was a rapper, but apparently it's a soda
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23:48:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Decimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52035&oldid=52029 * MD XF * (+132) Add COND
23:52:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52036&oldid=52016 * Timtomtoaster * (+242) /* Implementations */
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23:56:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52037&oldid=52036 * Timtomtoaster * (+27) /* eWagon2 */
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00:02:17 <\oren\> http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASK612HJPK61UHBI006.html
00:02:19 <\oren\> lol, the covfefe heard round the world
00:03:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52038&oldid=52033 * Timtomtoaster * (+81) /* Command list */
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00:07:59 <HackEgo> sleffy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:08:37 <sleffy> I am a mere figment of the imagination
00:08:45 <sleffy> There are no records of my existence, for I unexist
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00:15:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52039&oldid=52038 * Timtomtoaster * (+11) /* Cat (numerical input only) */
00:35:22 <zzo38> Now I invented a extended version of MMIX object format, which allows for 32-bit line numbers, external symbols, large symbol tables, and a few other things.
00:37:18 <zzo38> There are eleven new loader instructions: lop_fixox, lop_fileu, lop_specx, lop_endx, lop_import, lop_importu, lop_xstab, lop_greg, lop_locim, lop_fixim, lop_lineh.
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01:48:19 <rdococ> I still can't get over the fact that there are an actual, existent group of human beings who want to kill half of the human population simply for having penises. It's ridiculous.
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01:58:42 <pikhq> rdococ: You'd be surprised how many dumb positions there are in the world.
01:59:53 <rdococ> pikhq, I am aware they exist but they still shock me.
02:00:00 <boily> pikhelloq, rdochelloc.
02:08:49 <boily> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK4-nUZiOH4
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02:25:25 <HackEgo> bessel function//Bessel functions are responsible for certain surprising and hard to understand compilation errors. You may have seen them if you tried to define a global named yn or j0.
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02:55:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1z1gxwpj1I
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03:28:03 <doesthiswork> cosa rica looks different from how I had imagined
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04:40:08 <HackEgo> 1/2:eridanipoid//Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects. \ vim//vim equals to cmxciv or cmxcvi, depending on which part of Roman Empire you are. \ flabberghast//Flabberghast is the recurring hunting one gets after too indulgent feast where one partook too libe
04:40:13 <HackEgo> 2/2:raly \ blsq//See: Burlesque \ certainly//We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor.
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04:51:38 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 12 Dec 15 01:27 bin/w
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04:58:16 <HackEgo> total 18208 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 105 Apr 17 18:20 ` \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 64 Oct 28 2016 `` \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 109 Mar 20 01:55 `^ \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 59 Jan 1 17:01 `̀ \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 17 Oct 28 2016 ^.^ \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Oct 28 2016 ! -> interp \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 468 Apr 13 03:40 ? \ lrwxr
04:59:01 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
04:59:14 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.25645
04:59:21 <HackEgo> 10440:2017-03-17 <hppavilion[1̈]> sled esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:4//s/timed out/timed out (but just barely; the internet was kind of slow before the universe was created)/ \ 10439:2017-03-17 <hppavilion[1̈]> mk esobible/gen_sys_1.0-1:0//First off, fungot bases eir arrays at 0, like a normal person. \ 10437:2017-03-17 <hppavilion[1̈]> mk esobible/ge
05:00:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Za-z0-9 [A*26][a*26][4*10]
05:01:33 <sleffy> don't mind me, just testing
05:02:02 <shachaf> `` cat bin/FireFlist | rot13
05:02:48 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ \ import random \ import string \ \ print "".join(random.choice(string.ascii_lowercase) for _ in xrange(15))
05:03:02 <HackEgo> 8878:2016-07-29 <shachäf> ` echo $\'#!/usr/bin/python\\n\\nimport random\\nimport string\\n\\nprint "".join(random.choice(string.ascii_lowercase) for _ in xrange(15))\' > bin/password; chmod +x bin/password
05:03:09 <HackEgo> The password of the month is poochpoochpoochpoochpooch
05:03:21 <HackEgo> 10898:2017-05-14 <boil̈y> le/rn password//The password of the month is poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 10595:2017-04-09 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is bad \ 10373:2017-03-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is OSBDemoLap9W53! \ 10206:2017-02-04 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7 \ 10065:2017-01-01 <oerjän>
05:03:32 <shachaf> oerjan: the password of the month is out of date tdnh
05:04:31 <HackEgo> «wisdom/rules of wisdom» -> «wisdom/rules of wisdoms»
05:04:36 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is out of date tdnh
05:04:39 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is out of date tdnh
05:05:18 <HackEgo> OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
05:06:06 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
05:06:27 <HackEgo> patching file 'wisdom/rules of wisdom' \ patching file 'wisdom/rules of wisdoms'
05:07:06 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
05:07:23 <HackEgo> oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän
05:08:02 <HackEgo> Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
05:08:08 <HackEgo> `help [<command>] gives HackEgo's default help message, or help for a specific command. Or currently possibly some other wisdom.
05:08:13 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:08:50 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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05:31:59 <\oren\> Marriage and bloodstain are the same
05:32:11 <\oren\> well, sound the same at least
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05:52:40 <HackEgo> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
05:54:21 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:54:50 <HackEgo> 1/2:grimmargorp//Þór, Grimmargorpurinn hefur sloppið! Ragnarök eru nálæg! \ lambek's lemma//Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses. It can be proved with as few as five arrows. \ zimbabwe//olsner's desk points zimbabwards. It is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation. \ xarg
05:54:54 <HackEgo> 2/2:s//xargs is for piping snowmen. \ implication//Implication is a useful rhetorical device, if you know what I mean.
05:55:15 <HackEgo> line="${1-$(cat /hackenv/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' /hackenv/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" /hackenv/tmp/spout; echo "$((line<len?line+1:1))" > /hackenv/tmp/spline
05:56:27 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
05:56:58 <HackEgo> blæg:Blæg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors. \ can't:can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and
05:57:29 <HackEgo> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand draft enhance example fast father glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast
05:58:24 <\oren\> wait, who pronounces can't "cont"
06:01:33 <\oren\> http://dilbert.com/search_results?terms=Bah
06:02:53 <rdococ> . o O ( what would happen if you were flipped? )
06:07:40 <\oren\> rdococ: if waht was flipped?
06:09:56 <\oren\> then you couldn't eat any food and would rapidly develop problems
06:10:26 <\oren\> because your amino acids, sugars, etc would all be the wrong chirality
06:11:32 <rdococ> so if someone entered my glide-reflection wrapping world and crossed the edge they should avoid eating from there
06:12:54 <\oren\> yeah, unless you carried a supply of food that was also flipped
06:14:16 <rdococ> I just licked a Switch cartridge.
06:14:21 <rdococ> bitter, but I'm not dead.
06:14:41 <pikhq> Well, it's only denatonium benzoate, after all.
06:15:04 <pikhq> It's not exactly known to be a major health hazard.
06:16:29 <\oren\> those cartridges don't taste anywhere near as bad as when you mistakenly chew a non-chewing vitamin
06:16:38 <rdococ> deters people trying to eat it and choking, which is known to be a major health hazard
06:17:09 <rdococ> death is also known to be a major health hazard, causing complete decomposition of the body in many cases
06:17:41 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
06:17:56 <rdococ> anyway, I wonder if my world's life would evolve with symmetric chemicals and amino acids to avoid the problems
06:18:23 <rdococ> if not, then it'd be fun to see what ancient civilisation makes of it
06:18:51 <sleffy> `learn death is known to be a major health hazard, causing complete decomposition of the body in many cases.
06:18:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'death': death is known to be a major health hazard, causing complete decomposition of the body in many cases.
06:19:09 <HackEgo> death//Death is known to be a major health hazard, causing complete decomposition of the body in many cases.
06:20:08 <oerjan> rdococ: it depends how deeply flipped you are. if it's subatomic, you'll annihilate with matter instead hth
06:20:11 <HackEgo> cd wisdom; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
06:21:05 <rdococ> is it related to antimatter?
06:21:05 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ;
06:21:36 <oerjan> also, if life evolved with constant flipping, it'd probably also evolve the capability to digest both variants.
06:22:29 <oerjan> rdococ: yes, antimatter is flipped and also time reversed.
06:22:36 <rdococ> but if the world is large enough, maybe only the life around the edges where reflection occurs would
06:22:56 <pikhq> I didn't think antimatter was time-reversed?
06:23:22 <oerjan> well you'd think some of the life forms would spread into the opposite of where they started...
06:23:52 <oerjan> rdococ: actually, you cannot detect where the edge is.
06:24:20 <oerjan> unless it appears suddenly, so the life forms have already spread to both sides of it.
06:24:27 <rdococ> it'd be the place where food kills you
06:24:38 <oerjan> rdococ: but how did the food get there?
06:25:31 <oerjan> rdococ: if life started _on_ the edge, it would spread across to both sides, and only be lethal when they met again in the middle.
06:27:14 <rdococ> depends on whether the chirality of the ground matters.
06:27:17 <oerjan> pikhq: CPT symmetry. C is switching matter and antimatter, and thus equivalent to flipping both P and T.
06:27:54 <oerjan> rdococ: there is no chirality of nonliving matter.
06:28:13 <oerjan> unless you go down to subatomic level.
06:28:29 <oerjan> and then only very weakly.
06:28:40 <pikhq> Erm, *quartz* is chiral.
06:29:02 <pikhq> It doesn't matter too much, but hey.
06:29:07 <oerjan> pikhq: well ok, but both forms have the same probability don't they?
06:29:33 <oerjan> so it's not chiral in a widespread way.
06:29:58 <pikhq> One particular chirality being the only one occuring certainly *is* only true of organic matter.
06:30:13 <rdococ> so if life started in the middle, it would experience lethality when reaching the edges. but if life started on the edge, it would experience it when reaching the middle.
06:30:48 <oerjan> life is chiral only because all lifeforms have inherited the original random chirality of the building blocks of their ancestors.
06:30:56 <HackEgo> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
06:31:03 <pikhq> (as you might expect, considering that any given chirality should *generally* be chemically identically to the opposite chirality)
06:31:05 <rdococ> brb, busy gawping at the new zelda's render distance... I think
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06:40:11 <rdococ> so you could have two different lifeforms with opposing chiralities in one world?
06:40:56 <oerjan> assuming they arose independently
06:41:06 <pikhq> I mean, in principle, but it'd likely require two unique instances of abiogenesis.
06:41:06 <HackEgo> Mark Shuttleworth? ¯\(°_o)/¯
06:41:16 <pikhq> Which *seems* awfully unlikely.
06:41:50 <rdococ> either way, the mirroring would make there appear to be two such forms
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07:42:56 <rdococ> imagine: a disease, that only infects people who haven't digested denatonium benzoate
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08:48:20 <rdococ> Prediction: there is someone out there who finds the chemical sexy and is already proving rule 34 once again
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09:26:33 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
09:26:46 <HackEgo> Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
09:42:51 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Now I invented a extended version of MMIX object format, which allows for 32-bit line numbers, external symbols, large symbol tables, and a few other things." => can't ELF already do that, with tools that support it??
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10:10:05 <wob_jonas> "<rdococ> but if the world is large enough, maybe only the life around the edges where reflection occurs would" => there are no edges. locally there are no flips anywhere, you have to go around the world to get flipped
10:12:50 <wob_jonas> "<pikhq> I mean, in principle, but it'd likely require two unique instances of abiogenesis. / Which *seems* awfully unlikely." => the unlikely part is both origins surviving
10:13:33 <wob_jonas> but then, we don't really know how unlikely it really is, we only have one biome to examine, and this one just happens to have only one origin of life
10:14:12 <wob_jonas> and also apparently just one surviving point where organisms as complicated as eukaryotes have evolved
10:14:34 <wob_jonas> I'm pretty proud of the original eukaryote really
10:15:06 <wob_jonas> (I can be proud of my ancestors, right?)
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11:16:04 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s=~/\n\z/){$c++} $a++} } print "matching: $c/$a entries;"
11:16:09 <HackEgo> matching: 1511/1519 entries;
11:16:22 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s=~/\n./s){$c++} $a++} } print "matching: $c/$a entries;"
11:16:31 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s=~/\r./s){$c++} $a++} } print "matching: $c/$a entries;"
11:16:41 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s=~/\r/s){$c++} $a++} } print "matching: $c/$a entries;"
11:16:46 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s=~/\x00/s){$c++} $a++} } print "matching: $c/$a entries;"
11:17:26 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s!~/\n\z/s){print "$f "} }}
11:17:28 <HackEgo> wisdom/ᛁᚿ wisdom/b_jonas can't spell wisdom/certainly wisdom/certainty wisdom/nak wisdom/o wisdom/output wisdom/wlcom
11:17:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?ᛁᚿ: not found
11:18:00 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
11:18:14 <HackEgo> 1/2:ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿ
11:18:18 <HackEgo> 2/2:gᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ
11:18:44 <wob_jonas> ``` echo >> wisdom/b_jonas\ can\'t\ spell
11:18:56 <HackEgo> b_jonas can't spell these words: weird, hygiene, etymology, myopia, hibernate, carbohydrate, appearance, maintenance, appropriate, privilege, obsolete, heard, homogeneous, jealous; and confuses: drought, draught/draft; couch, coach; depreciate, deprecate; dilate, dilute; contiguous, continuous; discrete, discreet.
11:18:59 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
11:19:06 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor.
11:19:09 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainty is for sure, but we have certainty that it isn't a functor.
11:19:22 <HackEgo> Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
11:21:07 <wob_jonas> ``` od -vtx -Ax wisdom/sp5zTEKIPozuQ06pczPhN2Nh47houup413gLQwU77OU
11:21:08 <HackEgo> od: wisdom/sp5zTEKIPozuQ06pczPhN2Nh47houup413gLQwU77OU: No such file or directory
11:21:27 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
11:21:57 <HackEgo> Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
11:22:08 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced with no space at the end, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:25:24 <wob_jonas> `perl -e {$f="wisdom/rules of wisdom";open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>;$s=~s/with no space at the end/and end in a newline with no space before that/ or die;$s=~s/\n\z// or die;print$s}
11:25:25 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:25:47 <wob_jonas> `perl -e {$f="wisdom/rules of wisdom";open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>;$s=~s/with no space at the end/and end in a newline with no space before that/ or die;$s=~s/\n\z// or die;print$s;open$o,">",$f;print$o $s or die;}
11:25:48 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:25:58 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:26:17 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s!~/\n\z/s){print "$f "} }}
11:26:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/certainly wisdom/certainty wisdom/nak wisdom/output wisdom/rules of wisdom wisdom/wlcom
11:26:32 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor.
11:26:34 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainty is for sure, but we have certainty that it isn't a functor.
11:27:07 <wob_jonas> ``` echo >> wisdom/certainly; echo >> wisdom/certainty; head wisdom/certain*y
11:27:10 <HackEgo> ==> wisdom/certainly <== \ We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor. \ \ ==> wisdom/certainty <== \ We don't know what certainty is for sure, but we have certainty that it isn't a functor.
11:27:37 <HackEgo> ./ \ ../ \ .hg/ \ .hg_archival.txt \ .hgignore \ 5pEV4X5h \ bin/ \ canary \ emoticons/ \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ evil/ \ factor/ \ good/ \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ izash.c \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ misle/ \ nasmbuild/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quines/ \ quinor/ \ quotes \ share/ \ src/ \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry/ \ tmp/ \ wisdom/ \ wlcom
11:28:01 <HackEgo> ./ \ ../ \ 99.sh \ bob.c \ brainfuck.fu \ ciol/ \ ciol.c \ daoyu.c \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ hello.c \ hello2.c \ maze.c \ orenbow.c \ pikhqbow.c \ ploki/ \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
11:30:14 <wob_jonas> `perl -e for$f(map{glob}"wisdom/*","wisdom/*/*"){ if(-f$f){open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>; if($s=~/\n./s){print "$f "} }}
11:30:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/bdsmreclist wisdom/indexed monad
11:30:28 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
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11:55:29 <HackEgo> complete heyting algebra//A complete Heyting algebra is just a cartesian closed complete lattice.
11:56:34 <wob_jonas> ``` rm wisdom/{burito,buritto,burritto}
11:56:49 <HackEgo> Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
11:57:17 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
11:58:10 <boily> `cwlprits perpetual motion machine
12:01:33 <boily> how's life over there?
12:02:38 <lambdabot> LIRF 021050Z 24009KT 200V270 CAVOK 26/11 Q1019 NOSIG
12:05:46 <wob_jonas> I've been adding newlines to the ends of wisdom entries, plus removing it from one
12:05:52 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
12:06:07 <wob_jonas> I found it annoying when wisdoms ran together in the `5 w output you keep doing
12:08:03 <boily> quintopia: humid! but the trees and herbs and plants and mushrooms and all that greenery is happily greening ^^
12:08:12 <wob_jonas> there were only like five newlineless entries and I fixed half of them
12:08:54 <quintopia> i recruited a third for our late june pandora adventures
12:09:18 <wob_jonas> I don't understand that entry so maybe it does need the lack of newline for humor or something
12:10:59 <HackEgo> wlcom//Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
12:11:27 <quintopia> i see no reason not to include a newline
12:12:19 <wob_jonas> what's that entry even supposed to do?
12:12:20 <HackEgo> Wlcm t th ntrntnl hb fr strc prgrmmng lngg dsgn nd dplymnt! Fr mr nfrmtn, chck t r wk: <http://slngs.rg/>. (Fr th thr knd f strc, try #strc n EFnt r DALnt.)
12:12:44 <HackEgo> <km̈c> printf \'Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)\' > wisdom/wlcom
12:16:13 <quintopia> we dont know how to get from sorrento to athens affordably
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12:38:25 <wob_jonas> or go by car, which is cheap if three people travel together in one car, but probably expensive for just one person
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15:09:35 <wob_jonas> I'm reading xkb definition files... a complicated mess with lots of small parts with all sorts of inheritence, and I can't see which parts of the source eventually gets included for the layout
15:10:44 <wob_jonas> I understand that it has to be composable, but still...
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17:32:05 <\oren\> people say you can get all your vitamins from your food, but I think that only applies if you don't eat nothing but junk food
17:56:33 <rdococ> Thought experiment: what would happen if you turned in time?
17:59:22 <\oren\> rdococ: that's what a lorentz transformation is
18:00:00 <rdococ> I am aware of that: I meant what would happen if you turned in time like it was an ordinary spatial dimension
18:00:49 <\oren\> probably a massive explosion
18:01:26 <\oren\> becuase the side that was going backward in time would become antimatter
18:01:35 <rdococ> Okay, let me rephrase: what would it look like for an object to face the future?
18:02:34 <rdococ> Take your regular cube, and swap the X axis with the time axis (I realize this isn't rotation, but the cube has 4 lines of symmetry, so it doesn't matter. heh.)
18:05:30 <rdococ> Or, take that cube's world line, and rotate it 90 degrees.
18:11:18 <\oren\> uh... well, it would become a really, really long rectangle that lasts a tiny fraction of a second?
18:12:46 <rdococ> okay, imagine that cube staying the same, but its eyes are facing the time axis
18:13:24 <rdococ> not literally, but nvm
18:18:31 <\oren\> wow I'm this far into this veido https://youtu.be/uWfcgiODqrY?t=6h48m5s
18:19:46 <rdococ> I'm listening to MK8's soundtrack because it's awesome.
18:22:11 <\oren\> also, this is an opening song of an eroge and it's a better song than a lot of primetime anime openings
18:25:58 <\oren\> I still don't know how this video is still up tho. I mean, he put together 145 opening songs of various eroge into an 11 hour video
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18:26:26 <\oren\> you'd think they would get around to dmcaing it
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18:42:49 <HackEgo> Coffee is a strange brew. Enticing wisps of vapour catch the eye, the soul ensnared into dark vortices of flavour. Some minds mix in milk and sugar to counteract coffee's black magic.
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18:58:18 <sleffy> Weakness is for the sleep
18:59:45 <rdococ> `le//rn weakness//Weakness is for the sleep.
18:59:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'weakness': Weakness is for the sleep.
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19:11:46 <int-e> . o O ( Hello, sleeple! )
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19:54:15 <int-e> . o O ( "fart" is an uncommon portmanteau of "fan art" )
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20:21:24 <rdococ> I'm trying to think of a good alchemy system.
20:23:09 <rdococ> Failing that, maybe a good geometric magic system.
20:26:05 <rdococ> I've also considered an alternative elemental system where fire isn't included as an element.
20:28:22 <rdococ> OOh! I just had an idea. What if water + fire = salt?
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22:12:01 <zzo38> I want the category-theory magic system. But I don't know why fire shouldn't be included as an element if the other three classical elements are. (Although an entirely different system can be made up; but, even the Chinese elements is including fire, too)
22:15:07 <rdococ> you could say fire is a process
22:15:49 <rdococ> you'd have water, fire-air and earth. fire could turn that into salt, burnt-air and ash.
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22:36:48 <esoman> I have an idea for an esolang.
22:36:59 <esoman> Basically its Prolog with different syntax.
22:37:23 <esoman> The syntax is an ASCII graph, with boxes representing relations.
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22:42:10 <prooftechnique> Sounds like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/needle
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23:14:10 * boily pokes hppavilion[1]
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23:18:20 * boily lights a flashlight. “I wonder if there are any grues in here...”
23:20:15 <zzo38> I have starting writing Z-machine implementation with MMIX.
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23:31:56 <HackEgo> zzo38card//zzo38cards are at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
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23:50:20 <zzo38> Do you like this cards?
23:51:41 <shachaf> There are too many for me to read.
23:51:46 <shachaf> Pick one or two and I'll read them.
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23:54:04 <zzo38> A permanent could be attached to any object or player.
23:54:32 <shachaf> Do you mean an enchantment?
23:55:02 <rdococ> if ice out of the fire/ice/lightning triangle freezes you, what's the point of lightning paralysing you?
23:55:09 <zzo38> Most permanents cannot be attached to anything, although Auras, Equipment, and Fortification, can.
23:55:29 <rdococ> if you ask me, lightning could make you move randomly?
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23:58:19 <zzo38> Do you like card "Acclamation of the Denied"? Some card also I make up based on the Dungeons&Dragons character, such as "Zeux Agem".
00:00:55 <shachaf> I don't remember how Conspiracy cards work.
00:02:15 <zzo38> How it works is if you have drafted that card you may include it in your command zone at the beginning of the game. If it has hidden agenda, then it is face-down and secretly chosen a card name, and then it can be turned face-up as a special action.
00:02:47 <shachaf> You may turn it face-up whenever you want?
00:03:09 <zzo38> Yes, any time you have priority.
00:03:33 <shachaf> I like cards that let you do things even when you don't have priority.
00:05:04 <zzo38> When you don't have priority, you still might do stuff during a mana step or when some effect requires you to make a choice, other than that you can concede at any time, I think.
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00:05:55 <shachaf> What about cards that let you cast spells while you're searching your library?
00:06:01 <shachaf> Can that happen when you don't have priority? I don't remember.
00:08:34 <zzo38> Some effects have you cast a spell or do other stuff as part of an effect, but normally, if it is not a part of the effect, it cannot be done unless you have priority (except that you can still activate mana abilities during a mana step, and state-based actions will be deferred until someone does get priority).
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00:13:58 <oerjan> aww my ppcg answer got unaccepted
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00:16:22 <oerjan> what, despite it _still_ being the only one...
00:18:42 <oerjan> it was an old answer...
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00:30:25 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: hoogle hoogle+ do
00:30:53 <HackEgo> 1/2:something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now. \ russia//Russia is a country so huge it manages to be so near to both Finland and Japan. It used to be part of the Soviet Union before Ronald Reagan destroyed it. \ mathematimu//A mathematimu is a quantum of mathematics. If you observe it, its codepoint can change. \ irc//IRC is short for "I
00:30:57 <HackEgo> 2/2:nternet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. \ delaware//Delaware is a US state in which everybody speaks German.
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00:33:41 <prooftechnique> The antecedent of "it" is ambiguous in that wisdom entry
00:34:10 <prooftechnique> One makes Reagan a political juggernaut; the other, a literal one
00:34:38 <rdococ> I present my brand new chatting system
00:34:44 <rdococ> the Internet Transistor Chat :P
00:36:38 <prooftechnique> Internet Resistor Chat is so much more militant, though
00:38:01 <oerjan> Internet Relay Capacitors
00:38:42 <oerjan> Internet Tube Chat, obviously.
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00:57:39 <Marcela_Gandara1> quien sabe como instalar una impresara HP Deskjet 1000 a mi canaima(linux)?
00:58:59 <zzo38> Sorry I am not so good at Spanish, this is the English IRC. Try the Spanish IRC.
01:00:04 <zzo38> Yes I know that much of Spanish at least
01:00:13 <zzo38> But I reply to Marcela_Gandara1
01:01:10 <shachaf> `bienvenido Marcela_Gandara1
01:01:12 <HackEgo> Marcela_Gandara1: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
01:06:47 <Destructible> so, I have made two esolangs. would these be appreciated on the wiki
01:07:11 <Destructible> they aren't bf derivatives, though the second one is kind of similar
01:07:51 <zzo38> You can post so that we can see.
01:11:11 <Destructible> https://github.com/Destructible-Watermelon/turtl-d/
01:11:48 <Destructible> https://github.com/Destructible-Watermelon/Woefully
01:12:08 <Destructible> that one is a mega tarpit with a different kind of control flow than I have encountered before
01:13:06 <Destructible> the closest thing to a conditional is multiplying a value by 1 or zero and then moving that many to get to a different state
01:15:44 <zzo38> I looked; perhaps example should be added on, too
01:15:55 <zzo38> And then these two thing can be posted on wiki.
01:16:03 <Destructible> The woefully is actually such a tarpit that I haven't made anything more complex than a repunit generator
01:17:47 <zzo38> Unless you have a proof you should not add category to specify is TC.
01:17:49 <Destructible> you could emulate a minsky machine with the state moving the pointer
01:18:08 <Destructible> I can't sketch an absolute proof, but I can explain why it is TC
01:18:38 <Destructible> If I made a bf interpreter in this I would be very surprised with myself
01:18:53 <zzo38> Then you can add such a explanation to wiki. This program is MIT license; you can link to such program, but the test you will add into wiki should be public domain. OK
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01:21:16 <zzo38> I am working on making Z-machine implementation in MMIX; do you like this?
01:22:39 <zzo38> This is a part of the program so far: http://sprunge.us/McGB (there may be some mistakes in it, maybe, though)
01:23:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQSdlbw3es
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01:44:23 <\oren\> the first episode of pokemon aired in 1997
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01:50:06 <Destructible> I might try making an esolang page... but I'm kind of lazy
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01:51:21 <zzo38> Do you know any MMIX programming and/or any Z-machine programming? I wrote a document about Z-machine programming actually.
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02:07:14 <oerjan> rdococ is secretly a relative of `words
02:07:23 <HackEgo> Argument "spanish" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
02:07:39 <HackEgo> Argument "english" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
02:07:51 <HackEgo> sistaparo detud disch panadamerla invió avigine sacári tli pana dícultar disen aber estia bras los graus estica ador protel bon palmarchlanar oeriento envir oresicia hernitab
02:08:18 <oerjan> `words 50 --canadian-english-insane
02:08:19 <HackEgo> ira chic infustrate agedamen cutchalockin dorsed kozuwainirogogue supernic humated ency headator lenacensel int explancram bologill stryophylar isosod dultitlinic gainewscal ichrobri flate serabolime port kolksikhay counderstor
02:08:42 <rdococ> `words --british-english
02:08:43 <HackEgo> Unknown option: british-english
02:08:55 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
02:09:13 <rdococ> what would the difference be between -gb and -us?
02:09:17 <HackEgo> abad homo grierpenned crucle aflf num spaien bria fartil onftc mech copol peda illa coudeter crentur machich hyda form malike hofstrue ate pyn ched remen
02:09:23 <HackEgo> that neffuserang bayshi toodbner esch brain bout oka tsystra adent stur conic buku bartgan svigate ovea kelinaia faut jiere repubilior insuno kathion sticallgl circhical gram
02:09:30 <oerjan> rdococ: the datasets they're generated from, presumably.
02:10:21 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. Additionally, almost all of his wisdom entries are bad.
02:10:46 <rdococ> `le//rn rdococ//rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a complex relative of `words.
02:10:49 <HackEgo> Relearned 'rdococ': rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a complex relative of `words.
02:13:58 <rdococ> internet has gone to siht
02:14:05 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a complex relative of `words.
02:14:08 <rdococ> `le//rn rdococ//rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
02:14:10 <HackEgo> Relearned 'rdococ': rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
02:22:28 <zzo38> I have looked at Marc LeBrun's "Computist Quiz", and some of the stuff listed there is stuff that I have used before anyways, so I will already know the answer. This includes the (x&-x) and the numeric sorting of text (without converting the text into numbers at first), and also the "alternating series of 0 and 1".
02:23:31 <zzo38> (The other questions I do not know the answer of though.)
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03:19:12 <zzo38> I invented "SET->BCOM optimization" for Z-machine codes. It is used when a SET instruction sets a local or global variable to a constant value. For ZIP/EZIP, it remains SET if the number is 0 to 255 and is converted to BCOM otherwise.
03:20:14 <zzo38> For XZIP/YZIP, it remains SET if the number is 0 to 255, becomes BCOM if the number is -256, otherwise becomes ADD if the number is 256 to 510, otherwise becomes MUL if the number is a product of two numbers in range 3 to 255, otherwise remains SET.
03:20:29 <zzo38> (O, and also becomes SUB if the number is -255 to -1.)
03:42:28 <oerjan> ooh, i was afraid my computer had rebooted, but it only hibernated
03:44:57 <oerjan> just as i was posting today's magnum PPCG opus.
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04:50:06 <\oren\> oerjan: I hate when computers hibernate
04:50:59 <HackEgo> 1/2:shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj//shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system. \ culprits//c[uw]lprits lists the nicks responsible for a file or wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits FILE or `cwlprits ENTRY \ croissont supplier//See misspellings of croissant \ oops//OOPS (Obligatory Oblivious PunS) is a variant of OOP. \ typoerj
04:51:09 <HackEgo> 2/2:an//typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin.
04:51:34 <shachaf> How many twins does oerjan have?
04:51:52 <HackEgo> * \ ☾_ \ c# \ myname \ orin \ örjan \ ørjan \ pico \ sewerjan \ twint-e \ typoerjan \ אrjan
04:52:08 <shachaf> `` grwp twin | grwp rjan | wc -l
04:52:17 <shachaf> `` grwp twin | grep rjan | wc -l
05:06:41 <oerjan> `dowg shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
05:06:50 <HackEgo> 3457:2013-08-21 <boil̈y> learn shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don\'t use the metric system.
05:07:35 <oerjan> @ask boily is `? shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj another thing you won't admit to?
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05:56:31 <HackEgo> 1/2:second wisdom//The second wisdom is that wisdom can never be complete or consistent. \ brontosaurus//A brontosaurus is an ancient mythological creature. They were well known for having mapoles for teeth. \ eliot//Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion. \ userweps//boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter \ itidus20//itidus20's
05:56:40 <HackEgo> 2/2:entry has been censored.
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06:17:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:glass//I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me. -- http://www.savagechickens.com/2016/05/new-diet.html \ sat solving technique//There are many SAT solving techniques, but none are completely satisfactory. \ death//Death is known to be a major health hazard, causing complete decomposition of the body in many cases. \ fnord//? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ta
06:17:46 <HackEgo> 2/2:nebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
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06:23:11 <HackEgo> If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it.
06:23:34 <HackEgo> If possibility did not exist, it would not be possible for Taneb not to invent it.
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07:13:52 <HackEgo> 10992:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> `` echo >> wisdom/certainly; echo >> wisdom/certainty; head wisdom/certain*y \ 9201:2016-10-09 <shachäf> slwd certainly//s#at least it#it certainly# \ 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ 2372:2013-03-04 <Jafët> cp wisdom/certain{t,l}y && sed -i \'s/ty/ly/\' wisdom/certa
07:14:15 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor.
07:14:22 <HackEgo> 10992:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> `` echo >> wisdom/certainly; echo >> wisdom/certainty; head wisdom/certain*y \ 9202:2016-10-09 <oerjän> slwd certainty//s/at least/we have certainty that/ \ 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ 2371:2013-03-04 <boil̈y> echo -n "We don\'t know what certainty is for sure, b
07:14:48 <oerjan> hm it was boily who used -n for some reason.
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07:18:25 <HackEgo> wob_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs
07:18:28 <HackEgo> wob_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs
07:18:45 <HackEgo> wob_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs
07:21:13 <oerjan> `4 `\? "rules of wisdom"
07:21:14 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while lo
07:21:21 <oerjan> `4 \? "rules of wisdom"
07:21:24 <HackEgo> 1/3:unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no spa
07:21:58 <oerjan> shachaf: he deleted the others today
07:22:15 <HackEgo> Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
07:29:11 <oerjan> `learn Covfefe is how you speak when you've had *way* too much coffee.
07:29:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'covfefe': Covfefe is how you speak when you've had *way* too much coffee.
08:03:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52040&oldid=51992 * Zzo38 * (+107) Implementation in JavaScript
08:16:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Woefully]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52041 * Destructible watermelon * (+3691) Created page with "Woefully is a programming language based on lines made of spaces. It uses a unique type of control flow, featuring no explicit conditionals, and is believed TC, though it is t..."
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09:13:38 <HackEgo> Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
09:14:10 <hppavilion[1]> `slwd Russell's Teapot//s/Russell's Teapot/Russell's little Teapot/
09:14:16 <HackEgo> Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
09:14:51 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Russell's Teapot//Russell's little Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
09:14:54 <HackEgo> Relearned 'russell's teapot': Russell's little Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
09:15:21 <rdococ> I'm working on a fictional material suitable for my hypercomputational idea
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09:17:27 <rdococ> "Multium". Unusual material which technically resides outside of any universes, in the multiverse - but can be seen and interacted with in every universe. As a result, it has proven handy for communication with other universes.
09:19:48 <oerjan> clearly what Multivac is made of.
09:25:11 <rdococ> though I feel like there's problems with it
09:26:45 <rdococ> if one device wants to spread an infinite amount of computational load across infinite universes, it could send a signal through to them.
09:27:06 <rdococ> but every other device in every universe which is semi-indistinguishable from them also wants to do that.
09:28:54 <rdococ> and what if other devices want a different computational problem solving and get the wrong answer?
09:29:57 <rdococ> hm, what I think I need for it to work is a whole server which resides outside of any of these universes
09:31:20 <rdococ> we need the ability to 1) target a specific universe and 2) allow that universe to target us back
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12:02:27 <zzo38> I thought of a kind of variant syntax of Kangaroo esolang, which is "nameless syntax", where the example program becomes: ,1;2
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14:21:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52042&oldid=52037 * Timtomtoaster * (+83) /* eWagon2 */
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14:53:13 <lukeoftheaura> my brother had an idea for an esolang recently based on the capchalog(?) system
14:53:34 <zzo38> I don't know how that is working
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14:53:42 <zzo38> You can figure out how to make, though.
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17:34:12 <zzo38> Apparently iPhone has its own PNG format, which adds a "CgBI" chunk (I don't know what its contents are), and swaps red and blue, and uses premultiplied alpha.
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17:35:30 <zzo38> (I don't know what the letters stand for either, although the initial uppercase "C" would indicate that programs that do not know about it will not try to read it anyways, and the lowercase "g" indicates that it is an unofficial extension.)
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18:29:07 <pikhq> That's odd, but it sounds like they're doing it to more closely match their GPU texture formats.
18:38:48 <int-e> http://iphonedevwiki.net/index.php/CgBI_file_format has (very little) further information.
18:38:48 <\oren\> konosuba is a good amine
18:39:10 <int-e> premultiplied alpha makes a lot of sense in context.
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20:01:06 <shachaf> Taneb: do you want this listed as a Tanebvention hth
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20:27:00 <HackEgo> 2177:2013-02-19 <olsnër> learn this is a word
20:36:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:¯\_(ツ)_/¯//¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is the ¯\(°_o)/¯ of urbandictionary \ myndzi//myndzi used to keep us all on our feet. \ brontosaurus//A brontosaurus is an ancient mythological creature. They were well known for having mapoles for teeth. \ 10//10 = 10 in every base. \ lem//Stanisław Lem was a Polish logician who discovered the law of exclude
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21:10:17 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
21:10:27 <int-e> . o O ( the first third is still there )
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22:06:31 <fungot> olsner: you're the real user plof. :p hee. eli terveisiä! :p? predicate
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22:38:40 <zzo38> Now I do have JPEG encoder and decoder with my Farbfeld Utilities, although it isn't a very good encoder (although this may be corrected later on).
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23:44:35 <izabera> a language has no recursion and the only kind of loops are for loops over an arbitrarily large but bounded range of integers
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23:44:45 <izabera> how do you prove that it's not turing complete?
23:47:55 <alercah> show that computation always halts
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00:32:22 <shachaf> sleffy: Sometime we should talk about derivatives and linear types.
00:32:55 <sleffy> I heard type derivatives give you generalized ADT zippers
00:33:18 <shachaf> do you understand tangent bundles twh
00:33:34 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
00:33:57 <sleffy> I need to learn more category theory but I haven't really gotten past the basics
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00:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52043&oldid=52017 * Zzo38 * (+0)
00:39:40 <shachaf> I don't think it's category theory.
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00:43:59 <sleffy> shachaf, I see "bundle", I think fiber bundle
00:44:09 <sleffy> I think fiber bundle, I think topology/category theory
00:44:54 <sleffy> Well, I don't know topology either lol
00:46:29 <HackEgo> Topology is another name for topos theory.
00:47:06 <HackEgo> 6131:2015-10-25 <tsweẗt> learn Topology is another name for topos theory. \ 6130:2015-10-25 <tsweẗt> learn Topology is the study of toposes.
00:47:20 <HackEgo> 1/1:taiwan//Taiwan is a country of which the United Nations denies the existence, just like Macedonia is. \ no//No means hi. \ morphology//Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it. \ herbalist//An herbalist is a list of herbas. \ supermarionation//Supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom.
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05:41:50 <zzo38> I don't know how "normal" will be consider my idea in MMIX programming to store a VM memory at the beginning of the text segment instead of in the data segment (although I think you almost certainly would not do that if you were compiling from C instead of writing in assembly language)
05:44:32 <zzo38> Nevertheless, because the text segment has address 0, and is still read/write, although normally it is used to store the program rather than data (VM memory will be considered data to this program, rather than native instructions), the fact that its address is zero seems very convenient to me.
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07:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Woefully]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52044&oldid=52041 * Oerjan * (-58) Clean up a bit
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08:04:12 <IronY> Sorry about the spam, all done testing
08:06:24 <myname> i'd love an example program for woefully
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09:13:30 <\oren\> http://www.bakuretsu.me/
09:17:50 <HackEgo> [U+30E9 KATAKANA LETTER RA] [U+30E9 KATAKANA LETTER RA] [U+30E9 KATAKANA LETTER RA]
09:20:06 <int-e> well they looked identical in my font
09:20:25 <int-e> but I wasn't sure whether that was due to the font
09:21:06 <int-e> yes, shocking indeed
09:21:16 <int-e> lambdabot finally builds out of the box with ghc.... 8.0.2.
09:21:32 <int-e> (since 3 days now)
09:22:24 <HackEgo> [U+32F6 CIRCLED KATAKANA RA]
09:22:34 <int-e> (that one is a box)
09:23:05 <HackEgo> [U+3089 HIRAGANA LETTER RA]
09:23:39 <int-e> (I swear the extra "r" was an accident)
09:25:24 <int-e> [CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-529B] <-- I love these descriptive names
09:26:00 <\oren\> え？まじ力とカタカナのカは俺のフォントで同じ？！
09:26:39 <\oren\> that's a problem I'll need to solve!
09:27:26 <HackEgo> U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B \ UTF-8: 42 UTF-16BE: 0042 Decimal: B \ B (b) \ Lowercase: U+0062 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O \ UTF-8: 4f UTF-16BE: 004f Decimal: O \ O (o) \ Lowercase: U+006F \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0058 LATIN C
09:27:39 <HackEgo> U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B \ UTF-8: 42 UTF-16BE: 0042 Decimal: B \ B (b) \ Lowercase: U+0062 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O \ UTF-8: 4f UTF-16BE: 004f Decimal: O \ O (o) \ Lowercase: U+006F \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0058 LATIN C
09:28:10 <HackEgo> U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A \ UTF-8: 41 UTF-16BE: 0041 Decimal: A \ A (a) \ Lowercase: U+0061 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B \ UTF-8: 42 UTF-16BE: 0042 Decimal: B \ B (b) \ Lowercase: U+0062 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0043 LATIN C
09:28:17 <\oren\> int-e: yeah, they could at least have included the meaning
09:28:30 <oerjan> i guess they don't have any named *BOX*
09:28:51 <int-e> `unicode CIRCLED KATAKANA RA
09:29:32 <HackEgo> U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET \ UTF-8: 5b UTF-16BE: 005b Decimal: [ \ [ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET \ UTF-8: 5d UTF-16BE: 005d Decimal: ] \ ] \ Category: Pe (Punctuation, Close) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+033B COMBINI
09:30:21 <HackEgo> U+039B GREEK CAPITAL LETTER LAMDA \ UTF-8: ce 9b UTF-16BE: 039b Decimal: Λ \ Λ (λ) \ Lowercase: U+03BB \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA \ UTF-8: ce bb UTF-16BE: 03bb Decimal: λ \ λ (Λ) \ Uppercase: U+039B \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \
09:31:02 <\oren\> it's a ridiculous error but somehow they made the error anyway
09:31:22 <oerjan> \oren\: it's actually spelled without B in modern greek.
09:31:37 <oerjan> that's the official reason, i believe.
09:32:54 <\oren\> gah, but then why not name other characters as tranliterations of their native names
09:34:45 <HackEgo> [U+043B CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EL]
09:34:52 <\oren\> how do you say "o with slash" in danish
09:35:17 <HackEgo> [U+00D8 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH STROKE]
09:35:32 <\oren\> see? not a transliteration here
09:36:17 <oerjan> \oren\: well, the cyrillic letter i just gave was
09:36:50 <HackEgo> [U+044B CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER YERU]
09:37:01 <oerjan> ok, that is an _obsolete_ name.
09:37:21 <oerjan> it may be from a different language.
09:38:04 <int-e> unicode royalty: ⛁⛃🂭🂽🃍🃝🂮🂾🃎🃞♕♛♔♚👸🤴
09:40:54 <int-e> shachaf: yeah I stumbled upon that one, too.
09:42:15 <shachaf> my face when i have to fast for a long time before being permitted to proceed with my coronation: 🤔
09:45:43 <int-e> I shouldn't have done this... now I need to reload the log (and then change the encoding... again) for every thing shachaf says.
09:54:45 <shachaf> Why do you need to change the encoding?
09:55:42 <int-e> because Firefox is stupid and assigns a iso8859-1 character set to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/17.06.04
09:56:13 <oerjan> just be glad it doesn't insist on saving it as a file hth
09:56:21 <int-e> and does that every single time you reload.
09:56:34 <int-e> oerjan: true that was awful.
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10:08:25 <int-e> Wow I really shouldn't read news... "ringless voice mail"... what an atrocity. So angry now.
10:19:22 <int-e> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/business/phone-ringless-voicemail-fcc-telemarketer.html is the link
10:21:31 <int-e> just appalled by the brazen attitude that allows those people to say that since the phone didn't ring it wasn't a call, and that receiving such voice mail doesn't inconvenience anybody.
10:25:32 <int-e> audacity, audacity, audacity. (had trouble remembering this word)
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10:31:04 <Taneb> int-e, it comes from the Latin "audax" meaning "daring" or "audacious"
10:33:37 <int-e> Taneb: I know what it means; I wanted to call those telemarketers audacious, but couldn't remember the word... it took me a while to home in on "brazen", and then I did a synonym search.
10:35:04 <Taneb> int-e, I mean to say, I remember it by its etymoligy
10:35:40 <int-e> Ah, okay. I'm not sure that this is transferrable in my case.
10:37:08 <HackEgo> Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
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11:15:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Olegispe * New user account
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11:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52045&oldid=52024 * Olegispe * (+171) /* Introductions */
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11:41:51 <lukeoftheaura> does an esolang exist that has data stored as hex values in the file?
11:43:14 <lukeoftheaura> like, representing the number 64 as a character with the hex value 0x40 as opposed to the characters "64"?
11:45:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52046 * Olegispe * (+1168) /* Abc */
11:55:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lukeoftheaura * New user account
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11:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52047&oldid=52045 * Lukeoftheaura * (+232)
12:00:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lukeoftheaura]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52048 * Lukeoftheaura * (+71) Created page with "Just another guy who wants to make an esolang but has no ideas for one."
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14:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52049&oldid=52039 * Timtomtoaster * (-3) /* Truth-machine */
14:14:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52050&oldid=52049 * Timtomtoaster * (-2) /* Hello world */
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14:16:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52051&oldid=52050 * Timtomtoaster * (-6) /* Cat (string input) */
14:16:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52052&oldid=52051 * Timtomtoaster * (+2) /* Evil plans (again, both versions) */
14:19:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52053&oldid=52052 * Timtomtoaster * (+0) /* Using the interpreter (both versions) */
14:49:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52054&oldid=52046 * Olegispe * (+1053) /* Abc */
14:50:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52055&oldid=52054 * Olegispe * (+1) /* Other */
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15:07:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52056&oldid=52055 * Olegispe * (+19) /* Other */
15:08:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52057&oldid=52056 * Olegispe * (-2) /* Other */
15:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52058&oldid=52057 * Olegispe * (+10) /* Methods */
15:45:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Woefully]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52059 * Enoua5 * (+258) Created page with "Can you give some clarification on what the language does when the IP comes to the end/beginning of a line, as well as stating whether the program starts in text or decimal I/..."
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15:50:28 <Taneb> `quote experimenting
15:50:29 <HackEgo> 432) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
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15:53:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52060 * Raddish0 * (+2844) Created page with "types: * string (basically an array that is treated differently on the iostream) * number (arbitrary precision - depends on the implementation) * array (list of numbers) * blo..."
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16:31:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Anodium * New user account
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16:46:48 <oerjan> hm 3 new wiki accounts, news must be spreading
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17:09:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52061&oldid=52060 * Oerjan * (+635) Wikify some
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19:17:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mmphosis * New user account
19:23:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:CatIsFluffy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52062&oldid=51839 * CatIsFluffy * (+119)
19:24:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52063&oldid=50954 * CatIsFluffy * (-6) Shorter sum program
19:24:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52064&oldid=52047 * Mmphosis * (+120) /* Introductions */
19:27:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mmphosis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52065 * Mmphosis * (+54) Created page with "HQ9+ Interpreter in C https://github.com/mmphosis/hq9"
19:30:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Abc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52066 * Mmphosis * (+177) /* ABC (programming language) */ new section
19:34:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52067&oldid=46738 * Mmphosis * (+21) /* External resources */
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21:31:23 <zzo38> Now I made the program implementing 2 dimensional slew rate.
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01:38:46 <HackEgo> middle worse//Mïðal VVőrszü vvoràði nyëlv spöket af magyar inva̋ðereknek leszármazottai Herefördshirben äppröxima̋tely 1250.
01:38:51 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1d 20h 31m 16s ago: is `? shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj another thing you won't admit to?
01:39:50 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan. the boily you have contacted is presently on auto-pilot. please leave a message and I'll get back to you as soon as I regain higher brain functions.
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03:15:46 <zzo38> I have seen some TV sets have caption on mute, but many newer TV sets I have seen do not have that feature. Do you know why?
03:17:02 <zzo38> Also TV sets and other devices, there is not a button specifically to set the caption, so you have to use another menu. Sometimes there is a quick menu for caption on/off but cannot select which caption to display, only on/off.
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08:38:17 <zzo38> I am writing a GIF encoder (even though PNG is much better, it can help for use with programs that use GIF, to use GIF), including some options that may hopefully improve compression in some cases by making better decisions about when to restart the dictionary.
08:40:30 <zzo38> Another option to add in future (although it is not enabled by default, since some programs will not read it properly), is to check for borders and to try to split up the picture (into vertical bands) to see if that can improve compression in some cases.
08:40:50 <zzo38> I do not know how well such things would help, but, do you know?
08:44:23 <shachaf> I wrote a GIF decoder once.
08:45:35 <zzo38> Does it support pictures with multiple pieces and with a background colour?
08:45:59 <shachaf> I think the best way to improve on GIF compression is not to use GIF.
08:46:17 <shachaf> The disposal method implementation wasn't quite correct, I believe.
08:47:18 <shachaf> It's a bit tricky to figure out what disposal method means in that context, anyway.
08:47:25 <zzo38> Yes, is better to don't use GIF (because PNG is better), although that does not help if other program is not support PNG anyways.
08:47:49 <shachaf> Splitting up the picture to improve LZW compression is interesting. I'm not sure how often it can help.
08:48:36 <shachaf> Some programs treat a GIF image containing multiple image descriptors as an animated GIF and put a small delay between rendering each one.
08:48:45 <zzo38> shachaf: If there is no animation and no disposal method specified, you should probably assume method 1 (do not dispose), I should think?
08:48:45 <shachaf> Even if there isn't a GCT block in between.
08:49:13 <zzo38> Yes I read that too
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09:58:36 <lambdabot> boily said 8h 18m 46s ago: hellørjan. the boily you have contacted is presently on auto-pilot. please leave a message and I'll get back to you as soon as I regain higher brain functions.
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11:57:28 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 58m 29s ago: BRAINS...
11:57:31 <HackEgo> bicategory//Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
11:58:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: why: not found
11:58:46 <fungot> int-e: well i don't have. but why don't you use a memory-mapped fnord to do with the and keys in the us
12:04:39 <olsner> fungot: how does memory-mapped fnord work?
12:04:41 <fungot> olsner: it is an obfuscated language. in my case
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16:28:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meta Memes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52068&oldid=51970 * Programmer5000 * (+39)
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18:55:38 <Taneb> izabera, the trick is to never need to use the mouse ever
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19:07:48 <lambdabot> PAMR 051753Z 00000KT 10SM -RA OVC050 09/08 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 P0000 60000 T00940083 10094 20089 53001
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19:30:25 <int-e> pfft. looking at TIS-100 again ... how did I miss the hidden messages?
19:31:17 <prooftechnique> Like what? I just started playing it again after not looking at it for ages
19:31:40 <int-e> some of the red blocks have a "debug" button that tells a story
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19:33:49 <int-e> so they are not really hidden, but I managed to miss them anyway
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21:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52069&oldid=51440 * Raddish0 * (+200)
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21:41:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52070&oldid=52069 * Oerjan * (+44) Also, for ordering some time unsigned
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23:08:29 <HackEgo> 1/1:terminal symbol//A terminal symbol is a terminal condition that makes your parser die eventually. Consult your linguist for medical advice. \ tmyk//tmyk the more overfilled your brain gets. \ resume//A resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment. \ ppntat//Pen Pineapple Nutmeg Tamarind Apple Tangerine
23:14:54 <zzo38> Now I made the PNG decoder so that it can decode iPhone format PNG files as well as proper PNG files. Test file: http://www.jongware.com/images/png-gradient_iphone.png
23:16:04 <zzo38> Non-iPhone version: http://www.jongware.com/images/png-gradient.png
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00:07:50 <HackEgo> olist 1075: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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00:14:35 <Taneb> Used to be friends with at least one Theo
00:14:42 <HackEgo> 384) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
00:14:48 <Taneb> I think that was about a Theo
00:15:14 <shachaf> Not friends with him anymore?
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00:16:38 <Taneb> Was never particularly close to that Theo
00:16:47 <Taneb> Lost touch with every Theo I ever knew though
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00:46:52 <wob_jonas> Do we have a *list for the bitcoin protocol schism?
00:47:08 <HackEgo> ztschestepcoin 5-loncoin blinifucoin hatercoin olarunticcoin iberacoin excitcoin omecoin emigusforcoin yelcoin zatiocoin hexcoin gallcoin bagcoin syriangycoin impcoin rentcoin frogranscoin bractcoin celcoin
00:47:20 <shachaf> how can i acquire some hatercoin
00:50:56 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I have seen some TV sets have caption on mute, but many newer TV sets I have seen do not have that feature. Do you know why?" => TVs do caption? you mean apart from overlaying teletext (with transparent background and no bottom navi elements) on the screen?
00:51:17 <wob_jonas> I didn't know such a feature existed. probably I'm not up to date with how TVs work by like a decade.
00:57:24 <zzo38> You can usually set if you want a transparent or opaque or translucent background, as well as font settings and colours and so on for the captions
00:58:35 <wob_jonas> wait, *font settings* too? you mean you can change the font (not just zoom it or move it around on the screen)? so it's not like DVD captions which are stored as bitmaps?
00:58:52 <wob_jonas> bitmap images that is, not character-based text
01:01:00 <zzo38> Captions are different than subtitles (which are stored as pictures).
01:02:04 <zzo38> What fonts are available depends on the device that displays them (usually the TV set, although I have a DVD player that can decode captions, from TV, video input, VHS, and DVD).
01:02:38 <zzo38> Captions are coded as text, and I think it is better than subtitles. DVDs can have captions as well as subtitles.
01:04:40 <zzo38> There are actually four different streams of captions, although usually only the first one is used as far as I can tell, although I did see one television show that mentioned that you could select the third captions if you wanted captions in Spanish.
01:05:48 <zzo38> (I just leave captions on all the time on my TV set anyways, although some shows do not have captions, and sometimes the people who write the captions do not do it properly.)
01:06:42 <wob_jonas> multiple streams isn't too surprising. some TV stations are broadcast with multiple audio streams in different languages.
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01:08:03 <zzo38> Yes, there are sometimes multiple audio streams too, as well as multiple text streams. For digital television there is six text streams I think; analog television has four "CC" text streams and four "TEXT" text streams (the latter seem to never be used as far as I can tell).
01:09:11 <wob_jonas> analog television? isn't that stopped already so that people have to buy new gadgets?
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01:13:37 <zzo38> Yes, although the analog captions are still output in the retrace intervals of analog signals if you use them.
01:15:15 <wob_jonas> hmm no, I think teletext isn't in the retrace intervals
01:15:43 <HackEgo> obnbabted!coin lenagecoin triggecoin anocoin wurzellercoin chrcoin soncoin chercoin hpwcoin clefuckcoin carmacoin mechouffcoin nothcoin bandcoin miniumbrancoin unreamcoin legthcoin xandcoin omogovcoin hurcoin
01:15:44 <zzo38> I don't actually know how teletext is working, so I do not know. However, I think teletext can have page numbers.
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01:19:41 <zzo38> HDMI cannot emit captions, so you will have to command the emitting device to include captions in the picture. My own design which is Digi-RGB also does not emit captions (it can emit only the picture and nothing else), but can be used together with a IMIDI interface which may be used to emit captions (as well as other stuff).
01:20:52 <zzo38> DVI is a subset of HDMI and also cannot emit captions.
01:21:30 <zzo38> I do not actually have a television set which can decode captions, although the VCR/DVD combo does, so if other devices are connected through that, then the captions can be displayed. However, setting the captions needs going into the setup menu, which cannot be displayed while a VHS or DVD is playing.
01:21:53 <zzo38> (Subtitles can be switched while a DVD is playing, though.)
01:30:28 <zzo38> Have you used MMIX? Did you write that article on esolang wiki?
01:31:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I haven't used MMIX for anything, but I did write the article
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01:33:52 <wob_jonas> I should also write the MIX article at some point
01:34:08 <zzo38> You could see the Deadfish implementation I made in MMIX if you wanted to see one I suppose. Also, MMIX does support for an operating system to require the user program to map stuff if needed, because it does allow permissions (read, write, execute) to be set for each page, so if there is no permission then it is an error so you can detect segmentation errors like that.
01:34:16 <zzo38> And, yes MIX article should also be written.
01:34:34 <zzo38> Do you know what you wanted to write about the strange executable binary format?
01:35:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, some of the stuff is about the NNIX abi, not just MMIX
01:36:27 <zzo38> (That Deadfish implementation is first program I wrote with MMIX, although I also started writing a Z-machine implementation with MMIX too.)
01:37:03 <wob_jonas> the strange executable binary format? probably just that all the backreferences in the assembly are resolved at program load time
01:37:05 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, although NNIX is not quite a complete system as it is now anyways.
01:37:22 <wob_jonas> also that it doesn't have separate assembly
01:37:46 <zzo38> I mentioned about those references in my user page too I think; I mentioned a few things about MMIX on my user page too (with a link to your MMIX article included).
01:38:18 <wob_jonas> and that it's like a format the assembler spits out in a single pass forward, so all the metadata stuff is mixed with the data, and the data can't just be mapped and then modified in place
01:38:34 <wob_jonas> it has to be all copied wordwise or something
01:38:59 <wob_jonas> if you wanted to use MMIX with a real OS, you'd just use ELF
01:39:02 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it look like to me too, when I looked at it. It mean assembler can make output by one pass.
01:39:17 <zzo38> I think GNU MMIX does support ELF?
01:39:31 <wob_jonas> mind you, you wouldn't want to use MMIX for real stuff, for other reasons, but you could fix those other problems without breaking most of the user-space MMIX programs
01:40:15 <wob_jonas> that's what I'd guess, since gnu binutils already supports ELF for multiple platforms, it wouldn't be difficult to do that
01:40:51 <wob_jonas> they'd still have to add some arch-specific stuff into it and the dynamic linker of course
01:40:51 <zzo38> You can still make the operating system that still uses the existing NNIX functions, but can add other stuff too, including other binary formats too I suppose.
01:41:19 <wob_jonas> sure, the syscalls are compatible. some existing systems have multiple sets of syscalls too
01:42:39 <wob_jonas> and even the memory mapping policy can differ per executable
01:43:28 <wob_jonas> the real deal breaker is the no memory protection in kernel mode, but you can probably fix that in such a way that userspace doesn't notice
01:44:22 <zzo38> I think you can do without memory protection in kernel mode
01:44:25 <wob_jonas> (the slow interrupt mechanisms is not a deal-breaker, because other systems got around with a slow interrupt mechanism for decades until it got fixed, and it could be fixed without changing the cpu by changing only the ABI I think)
01:44:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: not in the real world, no. you'd just have bugs undetected that way.
01:45:20 <wob_jonas> even if you put most of the kernel to run into userspace
01:46:09 <zzo38> You can use an external device that looks on the address bus if you really need to I suppose, to detect memory errors while testing, or modify the emulator to test your specific kernel program
01:46:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well sure, if you want technical wins
01:46:47 <wob_jonas> so you add another chip because the mmix itself can't do what you want
01:48:10 <wob_jonas> what I would really like to know about CPU architecture is whether there's some realistic way to get x86_64 to have a feature where (non-huge) pages are larger (say 8K or 16K) and get real practical systems to use this feature
01:48:45 <zzo38> You will need other chips for I/O anyways, but in the case I specified it is possible that you might need only for testing, possibly; still, other extensions are possible such as an implementation of MMIX that has additional special registers for controlling such additional functions.
01:48:58 <wob_jonas> that's a question partly of whether you can get the kernel and userspace to cooperate with mandatory larger pages (so they can't expect per-4K mmaps) and whether the cpu caches can be rigged to handle this properly
01:49:32 <wob_jonas> because x86_64 with larger page sizes would be really rad
01:49:54 <wob_jonas> but you can only do it globally, as in, all pages have to be that size
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03:17:17 <MDude> Dangit, I'm tying to ctrl+f here
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06:39:40 <\oren\> Why is the war between commie china and non-aligned china named "Chinese war on China"?
06:40:07 <\oren\> what a retarded name for a war
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13:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SelfiAS * New user account
13:26:51 <oerjan> . o O ( do we really want to encourage selfies on the wiki )
13:48:18 <int-e> . o O ( a mapole is just a very sturdy, non-expandable selfie stick with no way of attaching a movile phone )
13:54:59 <int-e> I thought that if I make the string long enough it will blur the distinction between the two letters and thus hide my typo.
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14:01:07 <oerjan> oh. i thought you were spelling out a raspberry.
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14:48:15 <wob_jonas> hahaha! They continue to use the space that an oversized card and no mana cost gives. The new scheme cards have nice full phrase titles again
14:48:55 <wob_jonas> next year: Archenemy: Mojo Jojo, another villain fit for scheming
14:50:43 <wob_jonas> (M:tG reveals the 20 new scheme cards in the soon to be released Archenemy: Nicol Bolas product)
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15:01:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52071&oldid=52061 * Raddish0 * (+18)
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15:29:49 <wob_jonas> There should be a cycle of four sorcery cards like (Indoctrinate | 4WW | Sorcery | Gain control of target nongreen creature.) (Enthrall | 4UU | Sorcery | Gain control of target nongreen creature.) (Buy Loyalty | 4BB | Sorcery | Gain control of target nongreen creature.) (??? | 4RR | Gain control of target nongreen creature.
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15:37:23 <int-e> it really doesn't sound like a very red thing to do
15:37:56 <int-e> even if you incite a revolt you would just revel in the carnage and not try to recruit new followers :P
15:38:27 <wob_jonas> int-e: but doesn't red already have the most creature steal effects? they're just temporary. they're flavored as either treason or madness
15:38:28 <int-e> "instigate" may be better
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15:39:55 <int-e> I'd say the temporary aspect is part of the flavor.
15:40:26 <wob_jonas> maybe red shouldn't be able to get such a permanent effect
15:47:24 <wob_jonas> some card names like Brainwash, Blackmail, Dominate, Domineer, Mind Control, Provoke, Puppeteer, Zombify are already taken, but a lot of good card names are free: Conscript, Draft, Embezzle, Hypnotize, Mesmerize, Overpower
15:50:15 <wob_jonas> for white I'd prefer a name that shows that white is the only color that can make a creature serve you and actually like it, and think that serving you is the right thing, what he should have done all along
15:50:24 <wob_jonas> Indoctrinate isn't the right word for that
15:51:47 <wob_jonas> and there's probably censorship so Wizards can't name cards anything like "Labor Camp", "Mind Rape", "Drug"
15:52:28 <wob_jonas> or, whatever they called the camps where they got free labor of high schoolers?
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16:01:23 <wob_jonas> irc connection doesn't work well for some reason. anyway, they're called építőtábor, was associated with KISZ, and probably can't be mentioned on a card either.
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17:40:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52072&oldid=52071 * Raddish0 * (+111)
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18:16:53 <wob_jonas> "http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05" => "The idea being that blue only wants to transform something when they know what they're going to get, whereas red is willing to take a risk." Maro has betrayed the Simic guild and Experiment Kraj!
18:17:18 <wob_jonas> when has blue cared about knowing the outcome of an experiment in advance?
18:18:43 <wob_jonas> I guess the scheming Nicol Bolas has distorted Maro's mind about what blue should be like
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18:47:06 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:47:48 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//sa/, s/, mushrooms&/
18:47:49 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
18:47:56 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s/, sa/, mushrooms&/
18:48:00 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:49:56 <zzo38> If there is a censor that Wizards of the Coast will not name card with some things, then it mean you can use such name for custom cards if they are going to fit.
18:51:17 <shachaf> But you can do that anyway.
18:52:40 <zzo38> Yes, although it also mean it can't conflict, as long as you know exactly what censor they have! But that seems difficult to know anyways.
18:52:47 <\oren\> Куруру куру куру фува фува тобидашита но
18:52:56 <\oren\> Йахо йахо фуйо фуйо фуйо фуери атама
18:53:05 <\oren\> Пуйо пуйо фува фувари тобидасу йо
18:53:48 <\oren\> now, without googling, what language is the above in?
18:54:54 <\oren\> Атама даке сора ни дёбон атама даке сора ни дёбон урара
18:54:59 <zzo38> Cyrillic, maybe? I don't know.
18:55:21 <\oren\> is written in cyrillic, but what language is it?
18:56:17 <\oren\> cyrillic is an alphabet not a language. like right now I'm writing english in the latin alphabet
18:57:17 <zzo38> But isn't Latin another different language anyways?
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18:58:00 <\oren\> yes but many languages other than latin use the latin alphabet
18:58:49 <zzo38> Yes. But my guess was that your writing was in Cyrillic language and using Cyrillic alphabets.
19:02:05 <\oren\> there's no language called "cyrillic" though
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19:03:18 <\oren\> shachaf: can you figure it out?
19:04:19 <shachaf> What's the point of a "without looking it up" puzzle?
19:06:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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19:15:10 <\oren\> anyway the answer is, it's japanese written in the russian alphabet
19:15:14 <\oren\> some russian is going around writing the lyrics to all these J-pop songs in the comments, in russian.
19:15:39 <\oren\> but it's weird because he's using ва, a russian 'va', for the わ/ワ
19:18:43 <wob_jonas> \oren\: like http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/renglish.htm ?
19:20:04 <wob_jonas> and I still have the suspicion that cyrillic isn't a script or an alphabet, but at least two of them, the Russian script that is also used for Ukranian with modifications, and the Serbian Cyrillic script that is also used for Macedonean and Bulgarian with modifications, and the two got conflated to one script for political reasons
19:28:50 <zzo38> I have written some idea for a kind of variant of MMIX, where the instructions from #01 to #17 are replaced with new ones: FLOP, LDIR, STIR, LDUNO, STUNW, STUNT, STUNO, SMUX, SHIN, SHINU, SHOUT, SHOUTU.
19:31:54 <zzo38> I don't know if you think is ood or whatever though
19:34:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what do those instructions do?
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19:35:45 <zzo38> FLOP = floating point operation (the instructions that #01 to #17 used to be, as well as multiple/add together, and reciprocal, and average), LDIR = load indexed register, STIR = store indexed register, LDUNO = load unaligned octa, STUN? = store unaligned ???, SMUX = sideways multiplex (like Muxcomp64), SHIN = shift in, SHOUT = shift out.
19:37:07 <zzo38> (Unaligned loads/stores may require multiple memory accesses in order to work)
19:37:21 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It is basically like a fused multiply add.
19:37:55 <wob_jonas> LDIR and STIR sound like bad ideas. would make the implementation of an optimized cpu way harder than for MMIX
19:39:54 <zzo38> They may be as slow as SYNCID in the worst case I guess.
19:40:33 <zzo38> Since a similar thing could be done with SYNCID too
19:42:45 <wob_jonas> LDUNO and STUN? => um, maybe, they sort of go against MMIX flow but could be useful, but do you have the descr of the exact behavior of the exception if you try to store through a page fault boundary?
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19:43:13 <zzo38> That is a good point.
19:43:47 <wob_jonas> and yeah, LDIR and STIR have to handle rolling the register stack too
19:44:15 <wob_jonas> but that might not be worse than other instructions
19:45:23 <wob_jonas> instead of STUN?, wouldn't a store octa with a byte-granular mask be better?
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19:45:57 <wob_jonas> still would be unusual for MMIX I guess
19:46:21 <zzo38> O, I suppose you may be right about a byte-granular mask
19:46:59 <wob_jonas> are SHIN and SHOUT the two outputs of a double shift?
19:47:31 <wob_jonas> the one output of a double shift, in two shift directions
19:48:02 <zzo38> SHIN is shifting left $X and the low bits of $Y are stored in the shifted in bits, and SHOUT is shifting right $X and storing the shifted out bits in $Y.
19:50:16 <wob_jonas> would those come in pairs with immediate versions? immediate shift count is actually useful there
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19:50:54 <zzo38> Yes they do come in pairs with immediate versions.
19:51:15 <zzo38> All of the instructions I listed other than FLOP do have immediate versions too.
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20:00:01 <zzo38> Some of things I have done in making Z-machine implementation on MMIX are stuff that I do not expect any C compiler to ever do (such as storing the VM memory at the beginning of the text segment), and some are stuff that I think a C compiler might do but I don't know whether or not it does.
20:02:28 <wob_jonas> "storing the VM memory at the beginning of the text segment" -- Linux has some magic incantation for allowing you to map stuff to zero address
20:02:43 <wob_jonas> (which is normally unmapped, to catch null pointer dereference bugs)
20:04:01 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the reasons that a C compiler ordinarily will not do, I think, and why operating system is normally not implement it
20:04:34 <wob_jonas> um... the OS normally not allowing it is a level further than the C compiler ordinarily not doing it
20:04:38 <zzo38> The actual program starts at #20000
20:04:45 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of things the OS does allow but C compilers don't like to do
20:05:31 <zzo38> Yes, it is a further level, and NNIX is different than Linux of course.
20:06:31 <zzo38> What numbers will be needed in ELF to use MMIX and NNIX if you are using with ELF anyways? And then those fields in the ELF header can be used to allow the operating system to implement emulation of other system you can run multiple kind of programs on your computer.
20:09:13 <wob_jonas> "multiple kind of programs on your computer" => hmm, does Linux allow you to mix 16-bit and 32-bit code in an x86_32 executable, and farjump between them quickly without a syscall?
20:10:22 <zzo38> I don't know, although it can execute both 32-bit programs and 64-bit programs on the same operating system.
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20:12:49 <zzo38> Yes, although I did not mean mixing codes in the same program, I just meant that if the operating system and instruction set indication in the ELF header are not the native ones, that it would execute the program using an emulator.
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20:20:19 <zzo38> I think that storing the VM memory at the beginning of the text segment can help with the address decoding in Z-machine, because then you do not have to add the base offset. I have global registers ENDIAN and CENDIAN for endianness, where ENDIAN is 0 for big-endian and 1 for small-endian, while CENDIAN is 0 for small-endian and is 1 for big-endian. With MMIX you can add two addresses together with a LDBU instruction, so this can be use in this way.
20:21:07 <zzo38> Including for reading the Z-machine header, since the Z operand can be a 8-bit immediate number.
20:22:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, can't you instead use an MOR instruction to conditionally reverse endianness?
20:23:25 <wob_jonas> or compiling two emulator versions, one for big endian and one for little endian, and dispatching between them early?
20:23:28 <zzo38> Yes, and I did think of that too, but I decided against it, because in Z-machine there can be unaligned storage.
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20:28:47 <zzo38> (All known Z-machine story files are big-endian, although because of the unaligned memory in Z-machine, it can be made to support both without more difficulty than the unalignment already results with.)
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20:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Turtle1331 * New user account
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21:12:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52073&oldid=52064 * Turtle1331 * (+292)
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22:03:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VTFF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52074 * Programmer5000 * (+1703) Created page with "'''VTFF''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Programmer5000]]. It uses only 2 characters, <code>0x0b</code> and <code>0x0c</code>, which are '''V'''ert..."
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22:06:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52075&oldid=52000 * Programmer5000 * (+11) Add VTFF
22:07:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Programmer5000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52076&oldid=51948 * Programmer5000 * (+14)
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22:19:30 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
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22:28:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> now, without googling, what language is the above in? <-- without reading the rest of logs, it seems to have a very similar sound to japanese.
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22:28:58 <oerjan> but maybe not entirely.
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22:32:19 <oerjan> cv syllables, except for a couple ending n's.
22:33:47 <oerjan> "tobidashita no" just has to be japanese, so either it's that or a language which has borrowed a lot from it.
22:34:05 <shachaf> oerjan: he gave away the answer later, it's japanese hth
22:35:55 * oerjan has been learning to read cyrillic while learning some russian songs. currently slightly over halfway through Moscow Nights.
22:36:16 <shachaf> But I still usually get mixed up with some of the vowels.
22:36:56 <pikhq_> Yeah, definitely Japanese.
22:37:22 <oerjan> i had the hardest time distinguishing those sh-like letters.
22:37:58 <pikhq_> "tobidasu" is "to jump out" or "to appear suddenly".
22:38:17 <shachaf> Yes, I can barely distinguish the sounds of ш and щ
22:38:30 <pikhq_> So "tobidashita no" would be "(Because) (it) jumped out"
22:38:45 <pikhq_> No, it's a compound of "tobu" and "dasu".
22:39:51 <oerjan> shachaf: i actually meant remembering which letter is which. although the sounds are strange too. i think сь is weirder than both of those.
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22:41:15 <Warrigal> So I thought of how to make object-oriented programming a bit more... Kay-like?
22:41:41 <Warrigal> Object-oriented programming with static typing, I mean.
22:42:10 <Warrigal> The dynamically typed stuff... that's been Kay-like since that one guy *created* object-oriented programming.
22:42:39 <Warrigal> One, classes cannot be types. Only interfaces can be types.
22:42:55 <oerjan> so far this song has a particularly tricky "Все здесь".
22:43:23 <zzo38> Warrigal: And then what?
22:43:26 <Warrigal> And two, classes cannot have static members.
22:43:54 <oerjan> (although the distinction isn't usually written)
22:44:10 <zzo38> Warrigal: I think that can work.
22:44:10 <Warrigal> This means you can't do, say, Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!"), because Console can't have a static method called WriteLine.
22:44:36 <Warrigal> So what do you do? Just make it an instance method? No, because then you'd want to call it like...
22:44:48 <Warrigal> new Console().WriteLine("Hello, world!");
22:45:07 <Warrigal> But there are no constructors. Constructors are static members.
22:45:22 <zzo38> Well, if you can do Console.WriteLine it would mean that Console is not a class, but rather is a object that is already define, or a namespace, or whatever
22:46:04 <Warrigal> Well, there's some type called "Console". It's an interface, of course, not a class.
22:46:20 <zzo38> You will call it on the interface for stdout, or a global function
22:46:28 <Warrigal> So you just have to obtain a Console object and call the method. Perhaps something like...
22:46:40 <Warrigal> obtain Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!");
22:46:59 <Cale> shachaf: I don't know what to make of the хо though
22:47:29 <zzo38> It could be obstain by making the variable which is the Console interface for stdout, and then do.
22:48:08 <Warrigal> So where does the Console object come from? It comes from your object's context object.
22:48:16 <Cale> Wouldn't expect an /x/ sound in Japanese
22:48:54 <pikhq_> Could be an odd transcription?
22:49:16 <Warrigal> When the program object is initially created, it receives a context pointing at "default" obtainment methods for various interfaces.
22:49:40 <Warrigal> When you create additional objects, you can give them the same context, or you can use a different context that behaves differently.
22:50:00 <Warrigal> Is that it's impossible to write code which depends on a particular implementation.
22:50:16 <Warrigal> It's *always* possible to substitute your own implementation for whatever the code is expecting.
22:50:21 <pikhq_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillization_of_Japanese
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22:51:40 <Warrigal> So, suppose you have some code which attempts to write to the console. Well, there's no way for it to restrict itself to only use the actual console.
22:51:49 <Warrigal> No matter how it's written, you can supply it with your *own* console instead.
22:54:15 <zzo38> Warrigal: Yes. It can be the console that you pass into the input of your program, I suppose, or something a bit similar
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23:02:01 <shachaf> fungot: are you a fungus bot
23:02:01 <fungot> shachaf: just don't make a line just for a pint. f) ' (
23:02:25 <shachaf> fungot is saying that cocaine is a gateway drug to alcohol
23:02:26 <fungot> shachaf: bloody grannies i tell you guys about this one
23:03:06 <oerjan> Cale: basically, russian has no "h" sound, and х is the closest.
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23:07:19 <shachaf> Remind me again why the derivative is a functor?
23:07:47 <shachaf> Say you have g : U -> V; f : V -> W
23:08:13 <shachaf> D(f . g)(p) = Df(g(p)) . Dg(p)
23:08:36 <oerjan> although sometimes they use г to translate it instead. E.g. wikipedia's russian phonology article has an example "Адольф Гитлер".
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23:09:42 <oerjan> i think г was a fricative historically, and still is in some dialects.
23:09:53 <shachaf> Is that thing functoriality of D somehow?
23:10:05 <shachaf> Or do you have to use fancier categories to make it work?
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23:12:33 <FireFly> <Cale> shachaf: I don't know what to make of the хо though ← chinese checkers?
23:13:20 <FireFly> five-in-a-row (or tic-tac-toe I guess)
23:14:21 <FireFly> Mostly they drink a lot of iced tea this time of the year
23:14:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it's a functor if you think of Df as a mapping between tangent bundles
23:15:12 <FireFly> shachaf: I have an interview next monday
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23:16:15 <oerjan> well at each point x in U you have a tangent space, and that is mapped into the tangent space of g(x).
23:16:20 <\oren\> hmm, they transliterated ジャブジャブ to джабу джабу
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23:18:37 <shachaf> FireFly: maybe you'll end up like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Goma
23:19:33 <boily> hellørjan, he\\oren\, helloochaf.
23:19:52 <shachaf> you don't have to helloveryone every time you join the channel
23:20:17 <oerjan> oh no shachaf's grumpiness as engulfed the porthellos
23:20:18 <FireFly> ...and not at a television company, luckily
23:20:28 <FireFly> so I think the risk of that happening is slim
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23:22:13 <\oren\> boily: what are your opinions on cyrillization of japanese
23:23:22 <FireFly> "Twenty minutes after the television interview, Goma attended his job interview, which lasted ten minutes.[2] He was not hired.[3]"
23:24:26 <shachaf> oerjan: shachaf's grumpiness knows no bounds
23:24:46 <int-e> yay I build a sequence sorter... so clumsy.
23:25:25 <FireFly> I don't think I ever solved that task…
23:25:44 <int-e> the exposure mask viewer is also evil
23:26:31 <FireFly> I managed to solve some of the problems quite efficiently I think
23:26:45 <shachaf> oerjan: So it's the tangent space of f at the point g(p)?
23:27:35 <int-e> FireFly: the exposure mask thingy suffers from a severe lack of registers... wasn't easy to come up with a plan of attack, for me.
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23:30:55 <FireFly> that's the rectangle-drawing one, right? what did the input look like for each rectangle?
23:33:47 <FireFly> I can't remember how I solved that one
23:34:54 <int-e> and a reasonable output would be x,y,3(w times),-1, x,y+1,3(w times),-1, ... x,y+h-1,3(w times),-1.
23:35:16 <FireFly> Yeah, I definitely had `h` as a loop counter in some node
23:35:45 <int-e> anyway I managed this time
23:36:20 <shachaf> What are some fancy surprising Turing-complete machines?
23:37:55 -!- \oren\ has set topic: Unregistered HyperCam 2 | vampiric variables | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
23:37:57 <shachaf> I didn't know until recently that a finite state machine with two counters was Turing-complete.
23:39:45 <\oren\> shachaf: hold on what? what operations are allowed on the counters
23:40:53 <shachaf> Increment, decrement, check for zero?
23:41:09 <shachaf> Do you need anything else?
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23:43:01 <int-e> It's very nice, if you don't mind the doubly exponential slowdown compared to a Turing machine :)
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23:43:37 <int-e> \oren\: the counters are unbounded natural numbers
23:46:58 <int-e> FireFly: I picked up the game again yesterday after a 6 month break (or thereabouts); the two things I'm most proud of is that I finally found a use for JRO and ANY (but none for LAST, yet).
23:47:10 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play that other game?
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23:47:24 <FireFly> JRO is *very* useful once one sees how to use it
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23:47:48 <FireFly> ANY (and sometimes LAST) are useful for demultiplexing
23:48:37 <shachaf> Jump relative offset or something like that?
23:48:48 <int-e> "jump relative offset", where the offset can be variable
23:49:15 <shachaf> I'm seeing people talk about it online.
23:49:30 <shachaf> I didn't play this game much. For some reason I think I stopped being able to run it?
23:49:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: So it's the tangent space of f at the point g(p)? <-- points have tangent spaces, not functions. at least for this purpose.
23:50:25 <shachaf> I mean the tangent space of the graph of f at the point (p,g(p))
23:50:41 <shachaf> I assume a tangent space of a point only makes sense if it's a point in some space?
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23:52:12 <oerjan> a differentiable manifold, in particular.
23:52:31 <int-e> FireFly: ANY is the key to really fast image generation :)
23:53:47 <boily> \oren\: like the Russian sushi in Durarara: you have to get used to it.
23:53:55 <int-e> (I have 1187 and 1151 cycle solutions for image test pattern 1 and 2, respectively; I have not compared to others)
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23:55:28 <oerjan> ^unscramble abcdefghij
23:56:37 * oerjan was thinking someone had managed to post a PPCG question which fungot already had the brainfuck answer to
23:56:37 <fungot> oerjan: perhaps their children will be italian, too. could be bugs, i'd rather have a scheme version of core wars.
23:57:24 <boily> fungot: nostril. and stop being sentient.
23:57:24 <fungot> boily: but it needs to recompile over half of the boxes has the wrong time, no
23:58:47 <int-e> actually it should be possible to prove that those cycle counts are optimal; 1186 and 1150 are hard lower bounds anyway)
00:10:35 <boily> random question: is there such a thing as a quantum of probability?
00:13:21 <oerjan> not that i've heard of. (assuming you mean something fundamental rather than an arbitrary unit.)
00:13:46 <shachaf> Are reals necessary for probability?
00:14:33 <shachaf> If so, is there some sort of universal property that characterizes them as such?
00:15:03 <lambdabot> ENVA 062250Z 09007KT 040V120 CAVOK 17/08 Q1007 RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT
00:17:46 <oerjan> shachaf: well, you want probabilities to be ordered, invertible, addable (if they're not too large) and multipliable. that probably is enough to fit it in an ordered field. the only thing that would be missing is the archimedean property (i.e. you could have nonstandard probabilities.)
00:18:22 <oerjan> (and you might of course use slightly _less_ than the reals.)
00:18:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lazpeng * New user account
00:21:20 <\oren\> I should start a business selling beyblades as vintage fidget spinners
00:28:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: dunno. I has previously asked whether reals are important for topology. I still don't have a completely satisfying answer.
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01:09:14 <boily> staaaaff of eeeaaarth ♪
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01:45:34 <HackEgo> Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
01:48:39 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/what’: No such file or directory \ Forget what?
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02:45:37 <Sgeo> `stargateuniverselist http://www.blastr.com/2017-6-6/stargate-universe-cliffhanger-finally-be-resolved-new-comic-run
02:45:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stargateuniverselist: not found
02:51:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VTFF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52077&oldid=52074 * Programmer5000 * (+63)
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04:38:53 <Cale> shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-i0JkZnf80
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07:21:23 <shachaf> @tell wob_jonas Well, the closed real interval has the right universal property for defining homotopy, see https://mathoverflow.net/q/92206
07:22:21 <shachaf> oerjan: what about quasiprobabilities and other things
07:23:12 <shachaf> oerjan: also what if you use rationals instead of reals for probabilities
07:23:16 <shachaf> where do you run into trouble twh
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11:41:03 <HackEgo> gaszpacho//gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
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11:55:02 <oerjan> @tell shachaf I know nothing about quasiprobabilities. also, everything beyond rationals starts mattering once you need to solve equations or use integrals. you cannot have normal distributions with them... but there's still probably a strict subset of the reals that suffices in practice.
11:55:21 <oerjan> @tell shachaf * with only them
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12:15:46 <wob_jonas> do we have a roman numeral lookup tool here?
12:17:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: hmm yes, I think I saw that post
12:19:20 <HackEgo> bin/fromroman \ bin/toroman
12:19:38 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$r{$t}=$_;$t}k for s""\$"..4e3;print $r{(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0]},$/
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12:28:20 <HackEgo> and//And is an Intercal unary operator.
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12:36:24 <wob_jonas> ``` toroman echo $[1+$(fromroman XCVI)]
12:36:30 <wob_jonas> ``` toroman $[1+$(fromroman XCVI)]
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12:59:42 * oerjan is reading the iwc forum, and gently reminds wob_jonas that it's "reminds me _of_" -----###
13:00:10 <wob_jonas> oerjan: ah yes, that's a mistake I make all the time
13:00:36 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=10146
13:00:50 <wob_jonas> hopefully people won't be considering it a mistake in a decade or two when we take over
13:02:29 <oerjan> incidentally if i were similarly failing to convert from norwegian, i'd be saying "reminds me on" or "reminds me at"
13:03:29 <wob_jonas> nah, you can't just convert prepositions from one language to another so easily
13:07:14 <wob_jonas> and totally logical: if you want to say you're in a town in Hungarian, you use -ban or -n depending on which town it is, unless it's one of Pécs or Győr in which case you may use the conjugation -ett which doesn't even exist for any other purpose than saying that something is in those towns
13:08:11 <oerjan> (norwegian also uses two different prepositions for towns, i and på)
13:08:45 <oerjan> they may be vaguely like -ban and -n in their basic meaning.
13:10:17 <wob_jonas> they're not vague! -ban is like "in" in English and -n is like "on". they're for marking places inside and over something respectively, and occasionally used for times too
13:11:01 <oerjan> well that's the same with norwegian.
13:11:50 <oerjan> so the "vaguely" is just because it never matches perfectly.
13:12:44 <oerjan> and because i remember hungarian has a 3-way distinction.
13:13:02 <wob_jonas> places in Hungarian are marked in a nice symmetric table of three times three common cases: -tól, -ból, -ról, -nál, -ban, -on, -hoz, -ba, -ra, and these cases are the most common ones borrowed for saying anything other than places, together with a few more common ones like -ig and -nak.
13:13:42 <wob_jonas> apart from those, there are a lot of uncommon cases, some of which are half-dead, and lots of prepositions, most of which are used with accusative case, but a few of them with other cases
13:14:06 <wob_jonas> what case is used for what other than places is completely random, and towns are just crazy
13:14:11 <oerjan> prepositions? not postpositions?
13:14:25 <wob_jonas> no, the rest are prepositions, written before and in a separate word
13:14:45 <wob_jonas> there are only those approx. dozen common postpositions and about a dozen rare postpositions for cases
13:15:23 <oerjan> somehow i had gotten the impression hungarian did more postpositions, but ok
13:15:30 <wob_jonas> -t for object and -val are also common.
13:15:37 <wob_jonas> the postpositions are much more _common_
13:15:46 <wob_jonas> everything that's used commonly gets a postposition
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13:19:27 <wob_jonas> so yes, you're right, all of them are postpositions
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14:07:04 <wob_jonas> There should be a wisdom listing what I hate. I hate wasps, mosquitos, music boxes and other forms of clockwork, raw flour, roman numerals, and the list goes on.
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14:25:12 <wob_jonas> they're stupid and hard to read, just like analog clocks. you have to, like, count tally marks and decide which place they stand for to read them. just use hindu-arabic numerals instead.
14:25:27 <wob_jonas> luckily their use is declining these days
14:26:38 <doesthiswork> would you prefer an analog clock with just one hand?
14:27:19 <wob_jonas> people still use them to mark the districts of Budapest, and I wish they didn't. there's some logic in using roman numerals for that, because street names can start with h-a numerals, and that numeral can be either the whole street name or just part of it, so writing the district number with a h-a numeral without some marker could be ambiguous,
14:28:16 <wob_jonas> (in theory a street name may have to start with a lone letter and a dot, if named from a person whose name starts with such a lone letter, and that could happen to look like a roman numeral, but I don't think there's an example of that in Budapest)
14:29:21 <wob_jonas> (part of the reason for that might be that people won't choose a name that has "I." or "V." as the first word, because that would look like a dynasty number for royalties too and so confusing)
14:31:46 <doesthiswork> do they not use hindu-arabic numerals in budapest?
14:32:12 <wob_jonas> In theory you could use roman numerals as month numbers, but almost nobody seems to do that anymore; and you could use roman numerals to mark the stage (floor) of a building, but people don't do that either so you only see it in old signs.
14:32:44 <doesthiswork> event list wikipedia list of distics in budapest is in roman numerals
14:32:46 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: sure they do: they use h-a numerals for house numbers, postal codes, zip numbers, rarely as a street name or part of a street name, and lots of other things
14:32:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52078&oldid=52072 * Raddish0 * (+61)
14:33:22 <wob_jonas> prices, date and time, quantities, lots of things
14:34:00 <wob_jonas> they're used for basically everything, and roman numerals were used the last century for a few particular things as disambiguation, where a h-a numeral could cause confusion
14:34:25 <wob_jonas> that's why they were used for districts and month numbers and floor numbers
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14:35:06 <wob_jonas> (also roman numerals are used for years but only on ornamental labels on building fronts or statues, and hours ornamentally on clock faces)
14:36:28 <wob_jonas> (those ornamental uses are in a decline too)
14:38:07 <doesthiswork> how do you feel about sumerian numerals for disambiguation
14:39:47 <wob_jonas> no. I want only arabic numerals. if you want them distinctive looking, then put suffixes or prefixes to it or add dots or hyphens in the middle as "magic numbers", which is already what they're doing for lots of namespaces of numbers.
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14:44:42 <wob_jonas> eg. phone numbers start with a plus, car reg plate numbers are of the formats AAA-999 or AAAA-99 or AAAAA-9, passport numbers have the format AA9999999,
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14:46:33 <wob_jonas> driving license and personal ID license numbers have the format AA999999 and 999999AA, non-intl bank account numbers have the format 99999999-99999999-99999999 or 99999999-99999999, there are other government bureaucracy administration stuff numbers that have formats 999-999-999, 9-999999-9999, 9999999999, 99999999-9-99 resp.
14:47:13 <wob_jonas> so if you accidentally supply the wrong number for what's expected, you can generally recognize it from the wrong format. this is a good thing, just like "magic numbers" in digital file formats are.
14:47:39 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: streets in general have names, not numbers, but a few street names are numbers or start with a number
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15:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you say hindu-arabic numerals on one hand but roman numerals on the other
15:04:43 <wob_jonas> PH: um, those are their common names, aren't they/
15:05:02 <wob_jonas> 1, 2, 3 are h-a numerals, I, II, III are roman numerals
15:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 'hindu-arabic' seems longwinded to me and i normally just see them called 'arabic'
15:05:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52079&oldid=52078 * Raddish0 * (+219)
15:05:55 <wob_jonas> and the h-a ones like 1, 2, 3 are in base 10 so they correspond to how you pronounce those numbers, whereas from the roman numerals it's much harder to translate from crazy stuff like XVIII to how you pronounce it in your head, which is why they suck as district numbers
15:06:05 <wob_jonas> yes, but "arabic numeral" is ambiguous
15:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52080&oldid=52079 * Raddish0 * (+35)
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15:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> unicode calls them 'european digits' which seems like a good name to me
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15:12:54 <wob_jonas> I'd like to call them ascii numerals, but that doesn't work either, because the roman numerals are mostly ascii too, with MDCLXI
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15:21:42 <wob_jonas> Ph: I don't think I ever say that. I say "latin script" or "English alphabet" or "ascii letters" or "ascii latin letters" etc
15:21:56 <wob_jonas> "latin alphabet" is similarly somewhat ambiguous
15:22:36 <wob_jonas> there's no single alphabet for the latin script, it varies by language (and sometimes there's even more than one per language), although almost all of them are related and similar,
15:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> you think 'european numerals' is eurocentric (despite the fact that they absolutely truthfully come from europe) but you think 'english alphabet' is just fine
15:23:29 <wob_jonas> and eventually all derived from the phoenician alphabet through the greek alphabet (which also has various version), and thus a cousin of the cyrillic and hebrew and arabic alphabets too
15:25:29 <wob_jonas> Ph: there's so many alphabets and half of them are arbitrary. for example, the Hungarian alphabet considers "ty" and "dz" and "dzs" and "ly" as single letters (for collation purposes and for Scrabble, but not for crosswords), but "ch" and "kh" as two letters (for collation purposes), for no reason, and it's even worse with the doubled digraphs "ssz
15:25:29 <wob_jonas> " which are collated as if they were hyphenated
15:27:12 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: do the roman numerals, the greek numerals, and the hebrew numerals come from Europe?
15:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> why are nerds so obsessed with this sort of really stupid pedantry
15:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> they're the standard numerals used throughout europe, developed in europe
15:28:28 <wob_jonas> but everyone already uses h-a numerals, so what's wrong with that? too long?
15:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you then go out of your way to find completely petty problems with the term 'european numerals' for them
15:28:46 <wob_jonas> it's not that the term is wrong, but that there's already an established term
15:28:51 <wob_jonas> everyone calls them hindu-arabic numerals
15:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone doesn't, as evidenced by me finding the term unfamiliar
15:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> and anyway i just said i liked 'european numerals' more as a name
15:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52081&oldid=46565 * Programmer5000 * (+5) Add link to !!!Batch
15:30:01 <wob_jonas> and I find the term "european numerals" unfamiliar
15:30:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52082&oldid=52081 * Programmer5000 * (-1) Fix
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16:42:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52083&oldid=52080 * Raddish0 * (+93) add some more examples
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18:53:09 <\oren\> Hmm, if you looked at what letters were used in recent latin works, e.g. Newton's Principia, would any of the 26 english letters be missing?
18:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> he does use w as a variable name and in english personal names though
18:58:39 <int-e> @ask oerjan have we seen that sword before? (GG)
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18:58:54 <\oren\> hmm so essentially the alphabet for "modern latin" would be the same as english plus æ I guess.
19:00:04 <\oren\> weirdly, I'm looking and "ae" only occurs in principia in one word, "Aer"
19:00:31 <\oren\> probably because there's no ligature of "Ae"
19:01:30 <\oren\> so æ doesn't count as a letter
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19:29:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52084&oldid=51178 * Programmer5000 * (+147)
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20:54:33 <lambdabot> int-e asked 1h 55m 53s ago: have we seen that sword before? (GG)
20:54:50 <oerjan> @tell int-e not that i remember...
20:56:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 1m 22s ago: I know nothing about quasiprobabilities. also, everything beyond rationals starts mattering once you need to solve equations or use integrals. you cannot have normal
20:56:24 <lambdabot> distributions with them... but there's still probably a strict subset of the reals that suffices in practice.
20:56:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 1m 3s ago: * with only them
20:57:36 <oerjan> int-e: i assumed it had been designed for its particular purpose.
20:57:49 <oerjan> which would make it unlikely to have shown up before.
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21:06:55 <int-e> I had missed the sigil the first time around (2 or 3 weeks ago)
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21:13:19 <int-e> wall of text comic
21:13:41 <int-e> you may recall me complaining about that
21:18:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52085&oldid=52084 * Oerjan * (+94) unsigned
21:19:04 <\oren\> ooh I found a new copypasta
21:19:44 <\oren\> KRAKOW STRONG! REMOVE WARSAW FROM PREMISE!
21:20:04 <\oren\> YOU ARE FAKE CAPITAL OF POLAND YOU ARE WORST CAPITAL OF POLAND! EVEN VIENNA BETTER CAPITAL OF POLAND! YOU ARE A JOKE WITH COMMUNISM YOU ARE RUSSIA NOT POLAND! HAHAHA ASIAN SMELL! KRAKOW HAS KINGS AND KING JADWIGA! WARSAW HAS NOTHING! POPE JAN PAWEŁ ALIF AND STRONG IN KRAKOW WHERE HE FORM! KRAKOW RICH AND POWERFUL THANKS TO JAN PAWEŁ AND JEZUS!
21:20:07 <oerjan> int-e: oh right, i missed that too.
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21:21:14 <\oren\> Apparently someone really likes playing as krakow in eU4
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21:22:19 <oerjan> \oren\: well it's a good name http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/04/28
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21:29:03 <\oren\> https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/69syjj/theres_a_new_toothpaste_in_town/
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21:53:22 <oerjan> <\oren\> probably because there's no ligature of "Ae" <-- actually, it might be because "Aer" is actually two syllables, not a diphthong.
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00:45:46 <HackEgo> fternooner//fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”, Icelandic „íðdegis“) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
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00:47:05 <shachaf> I Have No Mouth, and I Must Eat Screamingly Delicious Pastries
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00:57:38 <HackEgo> 1/2:block device//Block devices are a concession made in Unix to make raw hard disks and magnetic tape have a similar interface to regular files and terminals. Since magnetic tapes can't write individual bytes, only entire blocks, the interface isn't exactly the same, thus the dreaded dd obs= option was born. \ 0//702 matching entries found. \ pizz
00:57:42 <HackEgo> 2/2:a//Pizza is a kind of rhubarb pie made without rhubarb. \ sgeolang//Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place. \ postfridgerator//Postfridgerators are what we'll use once global warming really takes hold.
00:58:26 <shachaf> Sgeo: Is Sgeolang still Rust?
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01:16:22 <\oren\> Hmm, on my way home from work a terrible/great idea occurred to me
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01:25:25 <boily> he\\oren\. what happened into your mind?
01:41:04 <boily> \oren\ seems to have been consumed by insanity. a sad affair. “never go full insane,” I say.
01:46:59 <Cale> What is this divine hell?
01:50:05 <boily> there are things men and fungots aren't meant to know, much less glance upon. deep into unfathomable meanders, across currents only felt, never touched...
01:50:05 <fungot> boily: of course, but sh is broadly very portable. especially when compared to scheme
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01:51:05 <boily> heed the Wisdom of the fungot. hear its bedazzled grunts, words spoken without a mouth. (and an as of yet unknown amount of nostrils.)
01:51:05 <fungot> boily: you know this already), were my patches no good? :) htmlprag?
01:52:40 <boily> I know, but can't recall. it is ingrained too profound, my mind the overgrown ruins that jut above a derelict plain, windswept by a shrill breeze.
01:53:22 <boily> (speaking of breeze, I should unclothesline the laundry. the sun has set.)
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01:59:12 * boily prods \oren\ with his mapole. “you alive?”
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02:26:59 <\oren\> Assuming that languages like esperanto, lojban, toki pona etc are capable of the full range of human expression
02:27:12 <\oren\> Then it must be possible to write pornography in them
02:27:26 <\oren\> and I was wondering if anyone had done so
02:28:42 <\oren\> yeah it turns out if you just put esperanto pornography into bing image search...
02:29:51 <\oren\> someone made a MLP porn comic with dialogue in esperanto
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02:30:34 <boily> I don't want to know.
02:32:00 <zzo38> I made a program for Worley/Voronoi partitioning but it is slow and I think maybe could be made to be faster, perhaps if the points are stored sorted and with a limited range per scanline to search in, although I would have to see how to make those ranges then.
02:37:04 <zzo38> (Especially since different metrics can be used, as well as different n-th close point, this can do something.)
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07:09:25 <shachaf> Hmm: "The function f is continuous at x if f(x + ε) = f(x) + o(1)"
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09:21:41 <int-e> shachaf: it could be correct but leaves too much implicit . o O ( also this reply may be a bit too late to be useful )
09:23:17 <int-e> (basically you still have to say that ε is supposed to approach 0 and that this is used as the implicit limit in the o notation)
09:25:56 <int-e> And now I'm wondering whether anybody writes o_{\epsilon \to 0}(1)
09:25:56 <int-e> (I haven't seen anything (afair) like this but it does seem to make sense)
09:26:29 <shachaf> This was from https://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calculus-via-o-notation/
09:26:49 <shachaf> Which suggests introducing o() before limits.
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09:29:13 <shachaf> What if you treat o as an operator on functions?
09:29:32 <shachaf> I guess it would be o(0)(f)
09:29:53 <shachaf> There's the limit operator L : (R -> R) -> (R -> R)
09:30:33 <shachaf> Lf(x) = lim_{y \to x}{f(y)}
09:30:57 <shachaf> What are the properties of L?
09:31:04 <shachaf> I asked some questions about this a while ago but I forgot them.
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09:34:32 <int-e> I expect L(f) is continuous on its domain (which will be smaller than the domain of f if f is not continuous)
09:35:20 <shachaf> The domain of Lf could be larger.
09:35:47 <shachaf> "f is continuous" means "f = Lf"
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11:37:43 <HackEgo> muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
11:45:25 <int-e> shachaf: Lf is not defined at x if f is discontinuous at x.
11:45:31 <int-e> ... I see what you mean
11:45:42 <int-e> so it'll be incomparible actually
11:46:15 <int-e> and, surprisingly, not idempotent. subtle.
11:47:31 <int-e> (start with f(0) = 1, f(x) = 0 otherwise; Lf will be undefined at 0 and 0 everywhere else; LLf will equal 0 everywhere)
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12:43:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Insanity * New user account
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13:21:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52086&oldid=52073 * Insanity * (+208) Added why I am here (Insanity) and a short description of myself.
13:22:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ImageFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52087 * Insanity * (+1628) Add Imagefuck
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13:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Insanity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52088 * Insanity * (+211) Created page with "Hi there! I'm the creator of [[ImageFuck]], a [[Brainfuck]]-like language that executes code based on the colours of the pixels in am image. More about me can be found on my..."
13:23:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52089&oldid=52088 * Insanity * (+12)
13:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52090&oldid=52075 * Insanity * (+16) Add ImageFuck to language list
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15:21:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52091&oldid=52083 * Raddish0 * (+187) added more content
15:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52092&oldid=52091 * Raddish0 * (+124) Add the commands 'r', and 'c'. changed the examples accordingly
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15:50:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Raddish0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52093&oldid=50739 * Raddish0 * (+918) Added a LOT of stuff about myself
15:54:16 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> (start with f(0) = 1, f(x) = 0 otherwise; Lf will be undefined at 0 and 0 everywhere else; LLf will equal 0 everywhere) <-- i don't think so, the limit usually excludes the point itself so it's 0 everywhere from the start.
15:54:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52094&oldid=52090 * Raddish0 * (+12)
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15:56:33 <oerjan> @tell int-e What you can probably achieve is a function such that Lf is defined only at one point, and then L(Lf) nowhere. But on the intersection of their domain, i think Lf and L(Lf) must be equal.
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15:58:44 <int-e> . o O ( @tell is so useless )
15:59:44 <int-e> what's that don't ask don't tell list again
15:59:47 * oerjan now memorized third verse of Moscow Nights
16:00:02 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia myname
16:00:21 <int-e> `` echo int-e >> bin/dontaskdonttelllist
16:00:40 <int-e> (there's a command for that as well but I forget)
16:04:06 <int-e> Anyway, meh. I wonder how universal that agreement is, I'm pretty sure I was taught a different definition in highschool.
16:04:53 <int-e> (we had left-sided and right-sided limits too that did exclude the limit point itself)
16:05:57 <oerjan> if you don't you need to be careful when defining derivatives
16:06:36 <int-e> well, points where the function was undefined were excluded as well
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16:43:03 <kerbal> What, in you guys' opinion, is the strangest esoteric language?
16:55:43 <kerbal> Anyone want to try mine? It's called Integ. The Python 3 interpreter's at https://github.com/kerbin111/Integ
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17:12:58 <zzo38> You can write in esolang wiki if it isn't already, but, I will look on there thank you
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17:36:44 <shachaf> int-e: Why is Lf undefined at 0? lim_{x -> 0}{f(x)} = 0, isn't it?
17:37:11 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, what oerjan said.
17:37:49 <shachaf> The limit of a function at a point has nothing to do with the value of the function at that point, only nearby points.
17:38:21 <shachaf> OK, you have a different definition.
17:41:40 <shachaf> int-e: I think a standard definition is, lim_{x -> c}{f(x)} = L means that the function f' equal to f everywhere except c, and defined as f'(c) = L, is continuous at c.
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17:45:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in the docs about MMIX, Knuth mentions that there could be a cheap impl of MMIX where the hardware doesn't know about the structure of the page table trie, and all page table lookups are handled in kernel mode software fault routines. \
17:46:31 <wob_jonas> My question is: is it possible to have a cheap impl of MMIX where the hardware doesn't know how to spill the register stack to memory, so when the hardware register stack overflows upwards or underflows downwards, values are swapped in by a kernel mode software fault routine?
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17:47:53 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I am not sure, but I thought not.
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17:50:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MMIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52095&oldid=51175 * B jonas * (+41)
18:02:35 <zzo38> I have been working more on Z-machine implementation in MMIX. It may still contain some mistakes though
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18:41:48 <kerbal> !ztest Skewer +[->>[-]<+]
18:42:34 -!- tromp has joined.
18:42:42 <kerbal> !zjoust Skewer +[->>[-]<+]
18:43:17 <kerbal> Does zemhill not run anymore?
18:44:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: zjoust: not found
18:44:27 <\oren\> http://www.investopedia.com/news/more-bets-against-tesla-any-other-company-tsla-bac/
18:44:47 <\oren\> apparently everyone thinks tesla is overvalued
18:45:09 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
18:45:13 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
18:45:13 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
18:45:54 <kerbal> How do you use this bot?
18:46:21 <kerbal> Does it have a zjoust module?
18:46:32 <lambdabot> *+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrst...
18:47:00 <lambdabot> "*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrs...
18:47:28 <kerbal> Hmm... but that won't do bf jousting
18:47:41 <int-e> it's not meant to either
18:47:50 <j-bot> wob_jonas: *+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
18:47:59 <kerbal> Ah... so you can no longer do that in #esoteric?
18:49:21 <kerbal> The wiki must be wrong, then
18:49:21 <j-bot> wob_jonas: *+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUV...
18:49:40 <j-bot> wob_jonas: *+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrs...
19:03:42 <kerbal> So, if the bots are nonexistent, then is it impossible for people to get their names on the zem.fi leaderboard?
19:04:03 <wob_jonas> isn't there another submission method, like through http?
19:05:02 <kerbal> You can do it on the website, but that "gives" your submission to the name "web."
19:07:23 <int-e> Exception: #<Errno::ECONNREFUSED: Connection refused - connect(2) for "/home/bfjoust/bfjoust/socket/server.sock">
19:07:31 <int-e> it's broken anyway. complain to fizzie :P
19:09:57 <int-e> it's just HackEgo, fungot and zjoust (if it were there), as far as I'm aware.
19:09:57 <fungot> int-e: r6rs is at http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/ slavonic/ absurd.htm. take one down, pass them around
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19:11:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:11:19 <kerbal> (Sorry, just seeing what would happen)
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19:12:46 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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19:13:58 <j-bot> kerbal: |value error: help
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19:14:51 <wob_jonas> kerbal: http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Community/IRC gives some very obsolete info
19:25:40 <fizzie> I don't really "run" HackEgo, I just help out a little.
19:26:10 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah, that's what all unlucky people who become maintainers say at the start
19:26:14 <fizzie> Let me try to remember how on earth you actually started zemhill.
19:26:42 <fizzie> (There was some sort of a maintenance thing on DigitalOcean, that's why it's not up right now.)
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19:27:55 <fizzie> I think maybe like that.
19:28:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ztest: not found
19:28:10 <zemhill> fizzie.whatever: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
19:28:23 <kerbal> Thanks so much, fizzie!
19:28:37 <kerbal> Let me test my new design:
19:29:06 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*10>(+)*10>)*4([-]>)*-1
19:29:07 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -9.88, score 13.04, rank 42/47
19:29:19 <kerbal> Not great, but a start
19:29:50 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -27.02, score 7.12, rank 47/47
19:29:58 <kerbal> !zjoust Checkers >((-)*10>(+)*10>)*4([-]>)*-
19:29:58 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -32.83, score 2.96, rank 47/47
19:30:11 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -27.10, score 7.13, rank 47/47
19:30:13 <int-e> fizzie: yeah I know, but complaining you you is quicker than complaining to Gregor when HackEgo breaks ;)
19:30:15 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*10>(+)*10>)*4([-]>)*-1
19:30:16 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -9.88, score 13.04, rank 42/47 (+5)
19:30:18 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -26.29, score 7.34, rank 47/47
19:30:27 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -24.69, score 7.81, rank 47/47
19:30:36 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -24.62, score 7.83, rank 47/47
19:30:42 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -23.62, score 7.90, rank 47/47
19:30:46 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -24.12, score 7.74, rank 47/47
19:30:49 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -24.31, score 7.35, rank 47/47
19:30:54 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -23.48, score 7.91, rank 47/47
19:30:59 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -22.98, score 8.12, rank 47/47
19:31:02 <int-e> ... does zemhill work in privmsg?
19:31:03 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -22.90, score 8.43, rank 47/47
19:31:12 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -22.50, score 8.81, rank 47/47
19:31:15 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -21.31, score 8.96, rank 47/47
19:31:19 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -23.88, score 7.74, rank 47/47
19:31:25 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -23.38, score 8.05, rank 47/47
19:31:31 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -25.14, score 7.60, rank 47/47
19:31:34 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -20.81, score 9.23, rank 47/47
19:31:37 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -22.64, score 8.74, rank 47/47
19:31:42 <zemhill> wob_jonas.dumb: points -20.81, score 9.23, rank 47/47
19:31:42 <fizzie> I should probably have monitoring and alerts on that thing, I've been adding that sort of thing to other things as well.
19:34:58 <shachaf> fizzie: What sorts of monitoring?
19:35:40 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*4([-]>)*-1
19:35:40 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -5.67, score 18.51, rank 17/47 (+30)
19:36:10 <kerbal> That's not terrible, actually
19:36:31 <fizzie> shachaf: Maybe I could add a /metrics endpoint to it. Or a black-box probe. Or both.
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19:37:08 <shachaf> Unfortunately Prometheus /metrics only supports floating point values for time series.
19:37:24 <shachaf> It should support any metric space.
19:38:39 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:38:39 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -6.19, score 17.96, rank 19/47 (+28)
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19:41:48 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*5>(+)*5>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:41:48 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -15.40, score 12.13, rank 46/47 (+1)
19:41:57 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*25>(+)*25>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:41:58 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -7.52, score 13.46, rank 34/47 (+13)
19:42:03 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:42:04 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -6.19, score 17.96, rank 19/47 (+28)
19:42:10 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*10>(+)*10>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:42:10 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -9.40, score 12.98, rank 44/47 (+3)
19:42:17 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*20>(+)*20>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:42:17 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -7.67, score 16.59, rank 20/47 (+27)
19:42:40 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*17>(+)*17>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:42:40 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -7.00, score 17.59, rank 19/47 (+28)
19:42:45 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*17>(+)*18>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:42:45 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -8.40, score 16.66, rank 20/47 (+27)
19:42:52 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*18>(+)*17>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:42:53 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -8.19, score 16.96, rank 20/47 (+27)
19:43:10 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*16>(+)*16>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:43:10 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -6.55, score 17.82, rank 19/47 (+28)
19:43:39 <kerbal> So for this bot, the size of the trap blocks should be 15-17. Interesting
19:43:58 <jjthrash> kerbal: Anybody going to use a genetic algorithm to grow a bot? ;)
19:46:21 <int-e> !ztest Checkers >((-)*16>(+)*16>)*4([-]>)*12[-]
19:46:27 <int-e> !ztest Checkers >((-)*16>(+)*16>)*4([-]>)*12[-]
19:46:27 <zemhill> int-e.Checkers: points -17.60, score 11.20, rank 47/47
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19:52:30 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*16>(+)*16>)*5((+)*10[-]>)*-1
19:52:31 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -8.05, score 17.12, rank 20/47 (+27)
19:52:41 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*5((+)*10[-]>)*-1
19:52:42 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -8.81, score 16.46, rank 21/47 (+26)
19:52:50 -!- tromp has joined.
19:52:53 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*17>(+)*17>)*5((+)*10[-]>)*-1
19:52:53 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -8.29, score 17.01, rank 20/47 (+27)
19:53:06 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*5((+)*7[-]>)*-1
19:53:06 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -6.55, score 17.90, rank 19/47 (+28)
19:53:53 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*5((+)*15[-]>)*-1
19:53:53 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -8.33, score 16.62, rank 21/47 (+26)
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19:54:14 <kerbal> !ztest Checkers >((-)*15>(+)*15>)*5([-]>)*-1
19:54:15 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -6.19, score 17.96, rank 19/47 (+28)
19:56:11 <int-e> !ztest Checkers >((-)*17>(+)*16>)*4([-][+.]>)*20[-][+.]
19:56:12 <zemhill> int-e.Checkers: points -3.57, score 20.14, rank 15/47
19:56:13 <shachaf> Can you stop with the bot spam?
19:56:17 <shachaf> Isn't there another channel for that?
19:56:41 <int-e> zemhill does work in privmsg btw. this is just where I decided to stop
19:57:52 <kerbal> Sorry... I'll conduct further tests with pm's
19:58:34 <int-e> kerbal: note that I found that 17/16 performs better than 16/16 and 17/17, a bit curiously.
19:59:34 <kerbal> int-e: Interesting! What do the other mods you added do? I sort of think they probably help too
20:01:03 <int-e> I don't know exactly, but there are some defense mechanisms for a plain [-] and [+.] has a different rhythm so gets another chance to kill those defenders
20:01:39 <int-e> and the final change with miniscule effect is to never step off the arena if it has size 30
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20:13:49 <int-e> !ztest Checkers >((-)*17>(+)*16>(+)*17>(-)*17>)*2([-][+.]+>)*20[-][+.]
20:13:49 <zemhill> int-e.Checkers: points 0.00, score 23.22, rank 10/47
20:14:06 <int-e> (0.00! I don't know how that happened.)
20:17:06 <kerbal> How are the points calculated?
20:17:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:19:54 <shachaf> int-e: Someone pointed out that L is still not idempotent.
20:21:31 <int-e> kerbal: I think it works like this: there are 42 jousts between a pair of programs (every combination of length 10..30 and sides the players are on), resulting in a score between -42 and 42; the tested program is pitted against all programs on the hill and the final score is the average of the resulting scores.
20:21:33 <shachaf> For example on the characteristic function of {1/n | n <- N+}
20:22:08 <kerbal> Ah. So, are higher or lower scores better?
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20:23:11 <kerbal> But lower ranks are better, right?
20:23:43 <int-e> I don't know about the score computation though. yes, lower numbers for the rank are better.
20:24:04 <int-e> (I say numbers because I'd call them higher ranks...)
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20:25:03 <kerbal> So, how did you get 0 points and yet such a low rank (10/47)? Does that imply that lower points are better, or that they are calculated in some indecipherable way?
20:25:35 <kerbal> 0 points is higher than in many previous attempts
20:26:33 <zemhill> wob_jonas.suicide: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
20:27:25 <kerbal> What, then, is the difference between scores and points?
20:27:30 <int-e> Rugxulo: what are you up to?
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20:29:02 <zemhill> kerbal: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
20:29:17 <kerbal> but as you can see that doesn't provide relevant info
20:29:28 <kerbal> maybe the website has our answer
20:30:17 <int-e> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/ has details on "Markov scoring"
20:31:07 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
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20:37:26 <Rugxulo> so Graue hosts the archive now (on Github)? I forget who used to host it ...
20:38:44 <HackEgo> cookbook:Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc \ esoteric files archive:The Esoteric Files Archive is now available at https://github.com/graue/esofiles \ font:#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://li
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20:39:08 <HackEgo> 2/2://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz \ lifthrasiir's font:lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png \ recipe:Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
20:39:54 <Rugxulo> the Befunge section seems a bit anemic
20:39:55 <shachaf> oerjan: You should adjust `2/distort so it breaks at exactly the right place. TWH
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20:58:16 <zemhill> kerbal.Tiny: points -14.62, score 10.39, rank 47/47
20:59:06 <zemhill> kerbal.Tiny: points -14.62, score 10.39, rank 47/47 (--)
20:59:29 <kerbal> Hey, look at that. zemhill echoes to #esoteric even when I send it a pm
21:01:07 <kerbal> I might as well make requests here
21:02:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:03:15 -!- tromp has joined.
21:04:53 <int-e> kerbal: it doesn't for tests. submissions *should* be rarer.
21:06:28 <zemhill> kerbal.Tiny: points -13.93, score 13.63, rank 39/47 (+8)
21:06:44 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:07:11 <kerbal> sorry... I used the up arrow to load the last command and neglected to change the !zjoust to !ztest.
21:18:01 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -4.48, score 18.80, rank 18/47
21:18:16 <kerbal> That submission was intentional.
21:21:09 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -4.48, score 18.80, rank 18/47 (--)
21:26:25 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -4.55, score 18.82, rank 18/47 (--)
21:27:37 <HackEgo> 1/2:apl//APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language. \ vim//vim equals to cmxciv or cmxcvi, depending on which part of Roman Empire you are. \ football//A football is a ball made of feet. It was rdocscovered in an old burial site near a graveyard full of footless zombies. \ stone space//Stone spaces were invented by P. T. Barnum as a hoax. \ p
21:27:48 <HackEgo> 2/2:atent//Patent is an adjective which means that something is painfully obvious. Often used to rightfully mock people that do not see it.
21:29:39 <HackEgo> 8459:2016-06-12 <shachäf> le/rn stone space/Stone spaces were invented by P. T. Barnum as a hoax.
21:30:29 <shachaf> That reads like a half-wisdom.
21:30:43 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
21:31:17 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions: math//s#alg#Stone spaces, &#
21:31:18 <HackEgo> tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
21:32:15 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -4.52, score 18.85, rank 18/47 (--)
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21:34:19 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -3.07, score 19.72, rank 16/47 (+2)
21:37:29 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -2.86, score 19.94, rank 16/47 (--)
21:37:42 <wob_jonas> is there a small interpreter esolang where every token is exactly two bytes long yet is textual and intended to be hand-writable?
21:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52096&oldid=52092 * Raddish0 * (-66) /* Built-in functions */ added some stuff, fixed some stuff...
21:38:44 <wob_jonas> well one bytes is a bit too short and there are already lots of languages like that
21:38:56 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -2.88, score 19.92, rank 16/47 (--)
21:39:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52097&oldid=52096 * Raddish0 * (+59)
21:39:04 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -2.86, score 19.94, rank 16/47 (--)
21:39:20 <wob_jonas> and two bytes should be enough for not too big programs, and most people don't write big programs for small interpreter languages unless they have efficient hw impl
21:40:02 <Rugxulo> you really think "ad" is more readable than '+'?
21:41:07 <Rugxulo> "small" (for a language) could mean anything
21:41:38 <wob_jonas> Rug: if you have 20..30 primitives and two hundred (functions and local variables together) you might not want to figure out how to assign them single char names so they don't collide
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> two hundred identifiers in your program that is
21:42:35 <wob_jonas> because your programming language is one that likes variables (like C), not one with lots of implicit unnamed stuff (like stack-based languages) or reusable registers
21:43:25 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's not an answer to your question, but a reasonably large chunk of Burlesque has some resemblance.
21:44:09 <Rugxulo> you mean like Oberon/0 (the successor to PL/0) ? Or Pascal-S (aka, subset) ?
21:44:28 <Rugxulo> I agree that one-byte opcodes aren't ideal, but two-byte isn't much better
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21:55:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52098&oldid=52097 * Raddish0 * (+300)
22:05:11 <Rugxulo> try looking up Rosetta on the WayBack Archive
22:07:42 <Rugxulo> it seems to mostly be available there
22:18:20 <\oren\> the toki pona language attempts to represent a large percentage of human expression with 120 'tokens'
22:18:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: and it fails hilariously. those words are not enough to say anything decent
22:18:52 <wob_jonas> it's a ridiculously bad attempt fora language
22:19:17 <\oren\> well what happens is you have long noun phrases for simple concepts
22:20:26 <\oren\> at least that's what I recall from when I looked at it last
22:20:40 <wob_jonas> what happens is a language that can talk only about a few topics that the creators wanted to talk about. typical newspeak language, deliberately limiting the range of your expressions to just the thoughts they consider good for the cause
22:22:40 <\oren\> I bet they could have done way better if they had about 1000 words
22:23:10 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, and some other constructed languages try that
22:23:32 <\oren\> how many basic words are there in lojban again?
22:24:27 <wob_jonas> about 1200 root words and 500 grammar words
22:25:35 <wob_jonas> there are a few concepts missing convenient words, but not too many, and they can be added. between 800 and 4000 root words seems about the right number for a good language
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22:37:50 <Rugxulo> Joyo Kanji? supposedly 2136 words
22:39:03 <wob_jonas> those aren't words, they're characters. a lot of words are written with multiple kanji, or with multiple kana, and the kanji can stand for lots of words
22:39:27 <Rugxulo> I've got a small text here about Esperanto, not sure exactly what number they're claiming, but you can get by with less than 1000
22:39:29 <wob_jonas> (though at least they don't have stupid irregular conjugations or declinations like most European languages)
22:40:03 <wob_jonas> @Rugxulo: there are a lot of such short lists. most are missing some topics that the compiler doesn't like or doesn't think of, but the order of magnitude is right
22:41:38 <Rugxulo> search Google for "Jim Cushing" Esperanto
22:42:58 <wob_jonas> my Longman dictionary has a pretty good list which it tries to stick to for most word definitions, of about 1800 or 1900 words. does let them write all of the definitions in a natural way, which suggests it's a decent list for most topics
22:43:21 <wob_jonas> (it's a monolingual English dictionary)
22:45:21 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well, japanese has 3 irregular verbs... aru/arimasu/nai kuru/kimasu/konai and suru/simasu/sinai
22:45:53 <wob_jonas> \oren\: right. way better than most European languages
22:47:50 <wob_jonas> Hungarian declination and conjugation is terrible. it's so bad that people use some details that are utterly unimportant as shiboleth to recognize non-native speakers, there are some details that even native speakers can't agree on, and a few verbs are impossible to conjugate in half of the forms so you need to rephrase sentences if you tried to us
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22:49:02 <\oren\> can, could, am able to (not "am canning"*)
22:49:26 <wob_jonas> I can't tell if you're kidding or not
22:49:56 <\oren\> there's no gerund for can
22:50:26 <wob_jonas> that's why it's a tinning kit, not a canning kit
22:51:35 <\oren\> must, must (musted*), am forced to (musting*)
22:52:44 <\oren\> must and can are almost like particles
22:54:31 <zzo38> How to limit the depth of a Huffman tree?
22:55:16 <shachaf> It's not a Huffman tree anymore at that point, is it?
22:56:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: fiddle with the model probabilities to increase the small ones?
22:58:33 <\oren\> a weird thing is that some of these defective verbs move around to hide it: "I have could write it"* -> "I could have written it"
22:58:38 <zzo38> wob_jonas: But how much to decide to do such thing?
23:00:05 <wob_jonas> \oren\: or more usually you just replace them with synonyms that have fuller paradigm: can => is able to; must => need;
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23:01:44 <\oren\> wob_jonas: oh, yeah and if you do that, the meaning is different
23:02:00 <wob_jonas> yes, the meaning becomes more regular or something
23:02:08 <wob_jonas> those other words behave more regular
23:02:18 <\oren\> "I have been able to write it" != "I could have written it"
23:02:25 -!- tromp has joined.
23:02:37 <\oren\> it fact they are almost opposite
23:03:05 <\oren\> because one implies you did write it, the other implies you didn't
23:03:19 <\oren\> despite their similiar formation
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23:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52099&oldid=52098 * Raddish0 * (+104) add I command
23:09:20 <\oren\> May's election gamble BACKFIRES: Stunning exit poll suggests the PM has LOST seats and Britain is on course for a hung Parliament
23:09:58 <wob_jonas> you're hanging your politicians? that's a nice system
23:10:44 <zzo38> I tried to improve the JPEG encoder to make its own Huffman tree, and it does result in smaller file size, and stb_image successfully decodes the JPEG file in that case, although ImageMagick complains about a bogus Huffman table definition and refuses to display it. (Currently, if it finds the depth of the Huffman tree is too much, it just discards it and uses the default instead.)
23:10:47 <shachaf> that would be "hanged" hth
23:10:56 <zzo38> How to fix these things?
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23:20:50 <\oren\> helloily! brexiteers on suicide watch as tories lose seats, Sad!
23:21:51 <boily> he\\oren\! you're alive!
23:22:02 <fizzie> Been a lot of things about the election, and I can't even vote. :/
23:22:37 <\oren\> at this point watching elections is like my version of sports
23:24:37 <fizzie> They're pretty slow at counting here.
23:34:12 <\oren\> Péter Szijjártó being interviewed on RT right now about european-russian relations
23:39:16 <\oren\> despite his unfortunate haircut, seems like he has a coherent mind
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23:43:12 <shachaf> fizzie: Can you run for office?
23:43:28 <shachaf> imo fizzie for president of finland
23:44:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think so, though I've not really inquired.
23:44:40 <fizzie> shachaf: Haven't asked.
23:44:48 <zzo38> Wikipedia suggests a "package merge" algorithm for length-limited Huffman coding
23:45:20 <fizzie> Incidentally, I should now get an email if the "test" action at the web zemhill submission endpoint stops working. Maybe that'll mean more nines of being up.
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23:50:31 <boily> fizziello, Phantom_Helloover, helloochaf, Rugxello, fiziello, hezzo38, wellob_jonas.
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23:57:55 <\oren\> swindon north to tories
23:58:09 <\oren\> that's the first tory seat announced so far
23:59:35 <alercah> I declare scotland for SNP
23:59:53 <alercah> do they do one whole riding at a time, rather than counting them in separate batches?
00:05:58 <HackEgo> amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
00:06:06 <HackEgo> 593) <oerjan> elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true.
00:06:11 <HackEgo> 706) <fungot> elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation
00:06:30 <HackEgo> 368) <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nope, I removed . from the current directory
00:08:28 <boily> je suis pas si amphiboilique like that, eh?
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00:11:26 <HackEgo> 1/2:victoria//Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest. \ atrocity//Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire. \ heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps. \ trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for
00:11:28 <HackEgo> 2/2: the biggest library in it. \ fisherman's friend//Fisherman's Friend is the friend of the palate that is more sore than discerning.
00:14:16 <HackEgo> deniability//Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
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00:17:35 <fungot> wob_jonas: i do lack bitwise not it seems to work great for simple stuff, write/ read/ write/... calls), then it should
00:17:58 <wob_jonas> fungot: nice! are those simultaneous?
00:17:58 <fungot> wob_jonas: " shut up about it, but jao started it
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00:19:55 <fizzie> fungot: Try to behave, you.
00:19:56 <fungot> fizzie: enough builtin stuff to make apps quickly is always nice to see the rates fall. is there a page for it
00:26:31 <zzo38> I also think little-endian is better, although, some thing is use big-endian (and some thing is using PDP-endian, but this is rare).
00:27:32 <wob_jonas> but I know that in practice it very rarely matters
00:27:45 <wob_jonas> and I do know a few applications where big-endian is a bit simpler
00:27:48 <shachaf> imo little-endian is best-endian
00:27:57 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, I believe those things too
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00:29:21 <zzo38> MMIX is big-endian, and farbfeld is also big endian, and Z-machine is usually big-endian, although there is a small-endian version of Z-machine too (but that has never been used as far as I know, and most implementations only implement big-endian anyways). Hamster archive is using PDP-endian for data sizes.
00:30:00 <oerjan> !ztest did this get fixed?
00:30:01 <zemhill> oerjan.did: points -32.57, score 4.20, rank 47/47
00:31:30 <zzo38> (My own implementations of Z-machine support both big-endian and small-endian. Some implementations will check for small-endian and display an error message in that case. Some don't check endiannessand assume big-endian. Others don't check the Z-code version either.)
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00:46:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52100&oldid=52063 * Wheatwizard * (+130)
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00:56:05 <esoman42> Is there an esoteric language that allows you to edit its interpreter?
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00:59:12 <LKoen> are you looking for something similar to Emmental or Mascarpone?
00:59:19 <LKoen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental
01:00:56 <esoman42> Emmental only allows redefining operations. I'm thinking of total intrepreter rewrite.
01:01:13 <esoman42> Like, you could morph the interpreter into Haskell for example, if you really wanted.
01:02:52 <LKoen> in mascarpone it is possible to modify the interpreters directly, to some extent
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03:02:04 <zzo38> I thought of the Magic: the Gathering card that is: Target spell or permanent has all card names until end of turn. I think that it is very powerful in some cases, and good in some other cases too; maybe is too much powerful I don't know
03:02:45 <shachaf> What does it do to give a spell or permanent a card name?
03:02:50 <shachaf> Does it get that card's jams?
03:03:20 <zzo38> By itself, it only affects what permanents are affected by the legend rule.
03:04:13 <zzo38> In combination with Quash, it ruins your opponent's game entirely.
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04:09:26 <zzo38> I made a much faster implementation of the Worley/Voronoi partitioning now, by deciding for each scanline, what point in the list of points is the first point to consider for that scanline, and then it searches forward and then backward from that scanline to determine the nearest point(s). Before, it only searched forward from the first point instead of knowing which one per scanline.
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05:24:40 <zzo38> This "ff-worley" program can, with some sets of options, to make something similar to the "Mosaic" filter in GIMP. However, each of these programs does things the other one does not, and they probably work by different algorithms (which gives further differences).
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05:53:12 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, neither ImageMagick nor GIMP nor G'MIC has the ability to compute the tensor product of two pictures; only my program (ff-tensor) does.
05:53:35 <zzo38> Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see any.
06:02:10 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa, did you just steal fizzie's joke without attribution tdnh
06:03:14 <shachaf> Assuming it's originally fizzie's, which I guess maybe it isn't?
06:03:45 <zzo38> Which joke you meant?
06:04:41 <HackEgo> 997) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
06:05:55 <Taneb> shachaf, because the UK's general election puts us into relative INVISIBLE TIMES
06:06:25 <pikhq_> MRLP is the only winner today.
06:08:05 <\oren\> aaand now I'm into videos where there aren't any comments from <4 years ago and it feels like I should let them lie instead of descrating the ruins of culture long dead
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12:05:06 <HackEgo> warrigal//Warrigal is #esoteric's resident dingo. It sometimes pretends to be a human.
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13:13:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Commercial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52101&oldid=48919 * SnoringFrog * (-1) /* Operations */ Removing a period from the subtraction operation as it was not actually supported
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13:43:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Commercial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52103&oldid=52101 * SnoringFrog * (+43) /* Implementations */
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14:32:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52104&oldid=52102 * Raddish0 * (+113) add 's' command
14:35:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52105&oldid=52104 * Raddish0 * (+69)
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14:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52106&oldid=52105 * Raddish0 * (+60)
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14:48:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52107&oldid=52106 * Raddish0 * (+82)
14:52:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52108&oldid=52107 * Raddish0 * (+0)
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15:04:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52109&oldid=52108 * Raddish0 * (+41) /* Built-in functions */
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15:08:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52110&oldid=52109 * Raddish0 * (+224)
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15:19:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52111&oldid=52110 * Raddish0 * (+45) /* Built-in functions */
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16:09:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52112&oldid=52111 * Raddish0 * (+134) fix some grammatical errors, and clear up some issues on - # and -#
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16:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triangular]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52113 * MD XF * (+264) Created page with "Triangular is a two-dimensional stack-based esoteric programming language in development by [[user:MD XF]]. There are eight directions in which the IP can move, the cardinal..."
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16:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MD XF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52114 * MD XF * (+922) me
16:55:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52115&oldid=52114 * MD XF * (-6)
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17:49:22 <\oren\> prime minister boris johnson when?
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18:01:35 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhJVDCLe5nw
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18:44:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52116&oldid=52112 * Raddish0 * (+154) Cleaned up iostream commands' definition. added 'L'
18:47:45 <shachaf> pikhq_: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-silicon-valley-ceo-indicted-allegedly-defrauding-employees-tech-company-start
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19:08:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52117&oldid=52116 * Raddish0 * (+128) added new functionality for '='
19:09:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52118&oldid=52117 * Raddish0 * (+1) /* Built-in functions */
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19:46:39 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I thought of the Magic: the Gathering card that is: Target spell or permanent has all card names until end of turn." => would that give the target only the names of all cards, or also some token names like Kaldra?
19:47:42 <wob_jonas> this can matter because of the legend rule (you can target a permanent or spell that's already legendary)
19:47:49 <zzo38> If it currently has any name that isn't a card name, I should think it is losing those other names.
19:48:21 <wob_jonas> you have to be careful with it, this can make the opponent sacrifice a legend if he has any two legends
19:48:57 <wob_jonas> if he has three, you can make him choose to sac the target legend or the other two
19:49:04 <zzo38> Yes I know, I said it is very powerful
19:49:55 <zzo38> (Especially if you also have Quash, but it is powerful even if you don't have Quash)
19:51:49 <wob_jonas> I didn't know about that one, only similar cards like like the Echoing cycle from Darksteel
19:53:07 <HackEgo> Echoing Decay \ 1B \ Instant \ Target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature get -2/-2 until end of turn. \ DST-C
19:53:09 <HackEgo> Blight \ BB \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When enchanted land becomes tapped, destroy it. \ LE-U, 4E-U, 5E-U, 6E-U, MED-U \ \ Blight Herder \ 5 \ Creature -- Eldrazi Processor \ 4/5 \ When you cast Blight Herder, you may put two cards your opponents own from exile into their owners' graveyards. If you do, create three 1/1 colorless Eldraz
19:53:32 <HackEgo> Bile Blight \ BB \ Instant \ Target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature get -3/-3 until end of turn. \ BNG-U
19:54:00 <zzo38> There is the stuff like that too. There is also Spy Kit.
19:54:29 <HackEgo> Cornered Market \ 2W \ Enchantment \ Players can't cast spells with the same name as a nontoken permanent. \ Players can't play nonbasic lands with the same name as a nontoken permanent. \ MM-R
19:54:45 <zzo38> Yes, there is also that
19:54:56 <HackEgo> Counterbore \ 3UU \ Instant \ Counter target spell. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that spell and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ SHM-R
19:55:23 <HackEgo> Crumble to Dust \ 3R \ Sorcery \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ Exile target nonbasic land. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with the same name as that land and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ BFZ-U
19:57:08 <HackEgo> Eradicate \ 2BB \ Sorcery \ Exile target nonblack creature. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that creature and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ UD-U, BOK-U
20:00:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52119&oldid=52118 * Raddish0 * (+116) added error codes
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20:01:20 <HackEgo> Mimeofacture \ 3U \ Sorcery \ Replicate {3}{U} (When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you paid its replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.) \ Choose target permanent an opponent controls. Search that player's library for a card with the same name and put it onto the battlefield under your control. Then that player shuff
20:02:46 <zzo38> You should fix it so that it will omit the reminder text, that way the rest of the text can be visible.
20:02:58 <zzo38> (and so that a search can ignore the reminder text)
20:03:12 <wob_jonas> dunno. I like some of the remainder texts. the flying and reach reminder texts are boring, but some of them are useful
20:03:21 <wob_jonas> anyway, feel free to edit the script if you wish
20:03:33 <wob_jonas> or filter the text file then edit the script to use the other text file
20:03:48 <wob_jonas> (just keep the original for backpu)
20:04:01 <zzo38> Yes, that is the possibility too, to have both kind
20:05:05 <zzo38> It is possible to look up a keyword ability in the rules if you don't know what it means.
20:06:38 <zzo38> Do you make up a new card too?
20:07:42 <HackEgo> Scour \ 2WW \ Instant \ Exile target enchantment. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that enchantment and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ UD-U, BOK-U \ \ Scour from Existence \ 7 \ Instant \ Exile target permanent. \ BFZ-C \ \ Scour the Laboratory \ 4UU \ Instant \
20:09:47 <HackEgo> Sowing Salt \ 2RR \ Sorcery \ Exile target nonbasic land. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that land and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ UD-U, BOK-U
20:09:55 <zzo38> Now I made program to make outline of areas in a picture, where the alpha channel originally specifies what area it belongs to. Possibly in future we can make these program the improved program compared with the other program (in some ways).
20:10:17 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, I did not know all of those card now I can see it
20:12:26 <HackEgo> Surging Dementia \ 1B \ Sorcery \ Ripple 4 (When you cast this spell, you may reveal the top four cards of your library. You may cast any revealed cards with the same name as this spell without paying their mana costs. Put the rest on the bottom of your library.) \ Target player discards a card. \ CSP-C
20:12:39 <wob_jonas> ^ there's a cycle of five of this one
20:12:52 <wob_jonas> sadly the blue one has a higher mc
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20:33:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:MD XF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52120 * Raddish0 * (+65) Created page with "say, I saw you on codegolf.stackexchange.com! --[[user:Raddish0]]"
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20:54:16 <zzo38> Yes, I know about ripple keyword ability
20:55:27 <zzo38> I have thought of also stuff such as non-creatures with embalm, non-creatures with ninjutsu, etc.
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21:50:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52121&oldid=52119 * Raddish0 * (+365) added '.' and ',' also changed "R"
22:01:39 <zzo38> Do you think there is any useful way to make up the points used to make up a Voronoi diagram or any kind of metric that can be use with this, that I may have missed?
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23:30:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: TRAAAAAAAAAAAAIN: not found
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00:03:17 <shachaf> fizzie: I was going to implement it but I think it'd require enough `ns to get me kicked out of the channel.
00:03:27 <shachaf> fizzie: imo add multiline output to HackEgo twh
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00:47:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52122&oldid=52120 * MD XF * (+164)
00:47:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52123&oldid=52122 * MD XF * (+1)
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00:50:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52124&oldid=52121 * MD XF * (+7) Fixed some formatting for ya :-)
00:50:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52125&oldid=52124 * MD XF * (+17) whoops
00:55:34 <Sgeo_> https://joshumax.github.io/general/2017/06/08/how-torch-broke-ls.html
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01:08:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52126&oldid=52123 * Oerjan * (+86) It works like this hth
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01:19:45 <izabera> http://snapper.rooms.cwal.net/coin.pdf the final quote
01:20:03 <HackEgo> 1/2:phantom_______hoover//It doesn't get any better than this. \ citation//Citation needed \ automatic squirrel feeder//Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. \ pipe//This is not a pipe. \ wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight t
01:20:10 <HackEgo> 2/2:o the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
01:26:37 <shachaf> izabera: What is the proper definition of a real number?
01:27:25 <oerjan> it's an element of the unique up to isomorphism complete archimedean ordered field hth
01:28:17 <shachaf> oerjan: is that really the best characterization of the reals twh
01:28:26 <shachaf> What are some interesting alternate (e.g. not algebraic) characterizations of the reals?
01:29:12 <oerjan> i don't know. unifying algebra and topology is like their reason to exist.
01:29:37 <shachaf> There's the characterization of the closed real interval that I linked the other day, that one is pretty good.
01:30:09 <shachaf> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/92206/what-properties-make-0-1-a-good-candidate-for-defining-fundamental-groups
01:30:29 <shachaf> But I suspect there are others.
01:31:33 <shachaf> You get something homeomorphic to the interval by quotienting the Cantor set by x111... = y000..., right?
01:31:58 <shachaf> I mean, that's not really a characterization, but it's probably a useful perspective.
01:32:27 <oerjan> there are many useful perspectives, that's _why_ the reals are important.
01:32:53 <shachaf> But everyone always says "complete ordered field".
01:33:01 <shachaf> Is that perspective even that good?
01:33:10 <shachaf> What *are* the reals? We just don't know.
01:33:56 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
01:33:58 <Cale> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=453
01:36:26 <shachaf> Cale: what do you think the best characterization of the reals is twh
01:39:09 <Cale> The Dedekind-complete ordered field thing isn't bad -- but its content is in all the theorems which flow out of that. You can get essentially everything important from those properties without actually specifying a construction of the reals.
01:39:40 <Cale> Maybe constructively, you need a little more -- I'm not sure.
01:39:50 <Cale> (but probably)
01:41:18 <shachaf> A lot of topological uses of the reals have nothing to do with them being a field, though.
01:43:12 <shachaf> It's like defining pi as being half the ratio of a circle's circumference to its radius.
01:43:56 <shachaf> It's correct, but pi is a more fundamental constant than a geometric definition suggests.
01:50:49 <Cale> I'd like to understand pi better from a non-geometrical view. It's easy to understand e in a combinatorial way.
01:52:24 <Cale> Did you know that you can show [0,1] is uncountable using only topological properties?
01:52:59 <Cale> More generally, you can show that a compact Hausdorff space with no isolated points is uncountable.
01:55:26 <Cale> You can also do it with just the ordering properties.
01:56:03 <Cale> (which makes sense because the topology follows from the ordering, but there's a much more direct route to it)
01:56:30 <shachaf> There's a theorem that 3SAT can't be solved by a RAM machine in better than n^(2*cos(pi/7)) time and n^o(1) space.
01:56:53 <shachaf> A bit of an odd constant to see in that context.
01:57:27 <Cale> How did they get that bound though?
01:57:48 <shachaf> It's the root of some polynomial.
01:58:25 <shachaf> Not a real pi. It's cos of a rational multiple of pi, so kind of cheating.
02:00:08 <shachaf> > let c = 2 * cos (pi/7) in c^3 - c^2 - 2*c + 1
02:00:16 <Cale> and I guess the geometry comes in because roots of unity
02:02:11 <Cale> You can write 2 cos(pi/7) as e^(i pi/7) + e^(-i pi/7)
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02:26:20 <HackEgo> 1/1:united states//See America. \ cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse. \ recursive//See: recursion \ logic//Logic is just another way the true Scotsman is keeping you down. \ bonsaikitten//Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command.
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03:07:03 <zzo38> Is there the possibility to make up something that would try to decode a JPEG picture and improve the quality by reducing compression artifacts? The quality can be known by looking inside of the file, so hopefully could be seen how much quantization errors there may be.
03:08:36 <LKoen> denoising autoencoders?
03:09:52 <LKoen> or are you looking for something working with the fourier transform directly?
03:10:40 <zzo38> That works with the JPEG encoded data
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03:27:17 <zzo38> What I mean is tampering with the dequantization step so that instead of just integer multiplication, it can try to guess what number was divided by the quantization matrix in order to improve the quality of the picture.
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03:29:28 <zzo38> So it is a picture that could have been the input to the JPEG encoder, just by making the guess of which one it is. There is many possibility and that is one guess.
03:35:54 <zzo38> Even if the quantization matrix is all 1, it is still lossy, so there is still a possibility to do.
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04:01:37 <Warrigal> shachaf: I'm assuming that "twhem" means "that would help eliminate magicians".
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06:44:14 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
06:52:06 <adu> did you ever prove your Tetration theory?
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10:53:27 <quintopia> a lang idea that i dont know if its tc but probably is
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13:07:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52127&oldid=52125 * Raddish0 * (+251) /* Built-in functions */ added "_"
13:13:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52128&oldid=52127 * Raddish0 * (+133) /* Built-in functions */ added some more specification for how an interpreter, or compiler should handle string definition.
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13:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52129&oldid=52128 * Raddish0 * (-73) /* Some example programs */ changed the rot13 example. completely rewritten. also added a quine.
13:33:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52130&oldid=52129 * Raddish0 * (-42) /* Built-in functions */ changed the functionality of "."; took some functionality off of "\"
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13:38:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52131&oldid=52130 * Raddish0 * (-2) /* Some example programs */ fixed some invalid code in ROT13
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15:03:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:select//select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and m
15:03:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: b: not found
15:03:50 <HackEgo> 2/2:ore. \ cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse. \ snow//Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it. \ il//An il is a cohelix of pper wire. \ at//At is a daemon for procrastinating commands.
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16:03:25 <boily> I was gonna joke about it being "laundryday", but I felt that it was a stretch.
16:03:45 <boily> apparently I was right: “...it derives from old Norse laugardagr, literally "washing-day".”
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16:27:33 <fizzie> Finnish turned that into "lauantai".
16:28:02 <fizzie> (Maanantai, tiistai, keskiviikko, torstai, perjantai, lauantai, sunnuntai.)
16:28:31 <rdococ> Coughition is a version of ghoti that makes sense.
16:28:54 <HackEgo> “Ghoti” is a very fishy spelling.
16:29:17 <oerjan> . o O ( that makes no sense either, but then, it's rdococ )
16:30:27 <oerjan> missing the o, though.
16:30:34 <oerjan> also that word doesn't exist.
16:30:51 <rdococ> true but at least a sane english speaker would pronounce it like "coffishon"
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16:32:40 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
16:34:04 <HackEgo> ten bhk mesolu peed edity risfue hai desolatio exch satur bach wpkrt invitauxistruly jellotter motollo kath und strat witz lletticable iba exaspear coska mility adjamidd
16:34:20 <rdococ> are these meant to be english words?
16:34:41 <oerjan> approximately. there's some esolang in there too, i think.
16:34:41 <rdococ> ugh, forgot the option
16:34:49 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
16:34:59 <HackEgo> porokc vlad gie foff thrne sta reeliatron popula titubearlorre kicklin ondurin trien fruita gar wakht rait veheiai occiu posik num ala wiq stran viarum rovoire
16:35:06 <rdococ> How about adding --ang for old english?
16:35:18 <oerjan> hm or maybe it's `coins that does the esolang thing.
16:35:21 <HackEgo> suzy wheadinal brainstation2 reaction aligata xsm fillia object tor hex alphabet spiral qwertycode rfol 1l villmariola migol bam128 pavity l00p atter quantum broogu dump numertycodan
16:36:09 <oerjan> rdococ: first you'd need a dataset, i assume.
16:36:20 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ airports.dat \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ candide \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ headers \ headers.gch \ hello \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ mtg \ nothp \ recipe \ scapegoats \ scowrevs \ sedtest \ UnicodeData.txt \ units.dat \ usercm
16:36:39 <rdococ> oerjan, wouldn't be too hard seeing as there's a whole old english wikipædia
16:36:59 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's very genuine.
16:37:11 <oerjan> although i'm not sure what the format is.
16:37:23 <rdococ> https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%93afodtramet
16:37:23 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/words
16:38:00 <rdococ> I guess nothing could be truly genuine seeing as it's a reconstruction
16:38:38 <HackEgo> Brazilian \ Bulgarian \ CanadianEnglishInsane \ Catalan \ Eng1M \ EngAll \ EngFiction \ EngGb \ EngUs \ Esolangs \ Finnish \ French \ Gaelic \ German \ GermanMedical \ Hebrew \ Irish \ Italian \ Manx \ Norwegian \ Ogerman \ Polish \ Portuguese \ Russian \ Spanish \ Swedish
16:39:17 <HackEgo> fronitt kältung diffunk äqualeum agildung horleiden ausgesetz vierung scht mafikalitzeichtsand verker judorrekon terbarottoeinsch ruhrbelel leichaltung mehrtminkellstoff katangswerkzeug anteuerversor flung flingabenserfahrung mitäteilaubtückneig radienstribbe geselungsdebattenbewarz wirkunster umschlieg
16:39:30 <oerjan> `ls share/WordData/Ogerman
16:39:54 <HackEgo> ononprefcoin boatemptacoin rancoin thercoin nftacoin tourcoin easycoin aljycoin m-codecoin arcalcoin angcoin :≠coin spirequilcoin crainfuckcoin viricarandcoin boateffecoin lalcoin 4ddcoin mustomodancoin rever20coin
16:40:14 <HackEgo> validcoin datasets:coin --eng-1Mcoin --eng-allcoin --eng-fictioncoin --eng-gbcoin --eng-uscoin --frenchcoin --germancoin --hebrewcoin --russiancoin --spanishcoin --irishcoin --german-medicalcoin --bulgariancoin --catalancoin --swedishcoin --braziliancoin --canadian-english-insanecoin --
16:40:36 <HackEgo> inschischcoin ihnachvogelungcoin ölmiliegcoin kostkeitungcoin abteidcoin ausbitmetistcoin ausgangskopiecoin vierercoin gutglichtetcoin empfcoin ahnreißenfeldcoin ministumspeziffcoin ratändustehpottencoin stoffiziercoin meprügentgedoniecoin standenaberschcoin kappbetrichcoin drindelncoin
16:41:53 <oerjan> `culprits share/WordData
16:42:44 <oerjan> those pesky stufficers
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16:46:22 <boily> mynamello. we already have a fizziecoin (with at least one picture!)
16:46:40 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary prime minister of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
16:50:45 <HackEgo> lazy subtle=tal rwlr memfuck skull gasoil thishead unlambleist rever true porish ranshogo rposi byter poochint gent bak che orkhersuble bitz bra leszek bytejump twodu 01_
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16:53:34 <quintopia> oerjan: imagine a right infinite tape of integers, 1-indexed, so that the nth cell is computed modulo n
16:55:36 <quintopia> now suppose tbat having been initialized, on each cycle, every nonzero cell is incremented. then, until no more updates occur, if a_n has just become zero, increment a_{a_{n+1}}.s
16:56:50 * oerjan refers the issue to his good pal ais523
16:58:32 <quintopia> neither do i. but youre smarter than me, so its worth asking.
17:00:01 <alercah> that does not sound TC to me but who knows
17:00:20 <oerjan> but ais523 is the one who has proved such things TC in the past. see 3SP.
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17:07:01 <oerjan> istr it's in a "so obviously tc ais523 got too bored to write it down" state.
17:11:35 <quintopia> i was just reading the c2 entry "you might be a three star programmer". its quite fun to read through the comments and take a drink every time a user-untagged comment was obviously written by zzo38
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17:21:07 <zzo38> Which ones you think I wrote?
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17:27:55 <oerjan> . o O ( cc238 is zzo38's wiki commenting twin. quintopia tends to get them confused. )
17:30:24 <zzo38> I think I have just once used three star pointers, and never more than that.
18:01:24 <zzo38> Apparently, is zzo38's wiki commenting twin. Other than that I don't know
18:12:01 <quintopia> zzo38: i think you said "As well as the stuff above, furthermore you can make some of the macros to have mismatched parentheses (I have actually used this, together with other things such as token-pasting __LINE__ and so on). Did you have that too? I really would like to see your example."
18:13:52 <zzo38> I cannot remember which ones I wrote, but I think I might have done.
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18:35:24 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> What are some interesting alternate (e.g. not algebraic) characterizations of the reals?" => there are two well-known explicit constructions from rational numbers, one called Dedekind cuts, the other is equivalent sets of Cauchy convergent sequences of rationals.
18:35:33 <wob_jonas> These are well-known constructions, so you can find them in introductory books.
18:38:11 <wob_jonas> Those are useful views because you can do all the proofs from them, but once you prove that it's a complete ordered field that has a rational in every interval, that's a good enough characterization that you just use that instead of the definition.
18:38:21 <wob_jonas> The construction is needed to show that there is such a structure.
18:39:21 <shachaf> That is a good characterization. But I'm wondering about others.
18:41:20 <wob_jonas> But the construction from rationals is a useful viewpoint, because it suggests that you want to expand exponentiation from rational to real exponents by making the exponential function continuous (in the Cauchy case) or monotonic (in the Dedekind case).
18:42:43 <zzo38> If the only thing you do with numbers loading from a file is to compare if they are equal or not, then you can ignore the endianness. Also, farbfeld would seem to work well with MMIX, which is big-endian, and has instructions such as WDIF which says they could be used to work with pictures.
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18:44:00 <zzo38> (And then you can also use MOR for swizzling the channels.)
18:44:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but almost every cpu has instructions to endian-swap words, so it's not a big deal
18:45:28 <wob_jonas> I have written at least one program that endian-swaps a pixel image of 16-bit words, because the raw input and output differed in endianness.
18:45:29 <zzo38> Yes, although in some cases you don't need to care about endianness, and MMIX has a more generalized instruction.
18:45:42 <zzo38> Yes, it is not so difficult.
18:46:06 <zzo38> In C it is easy enough to do, but I think dd does that too anyways (and so does utftovlq).
18:46:11 <wob_jonas> "has instructions such as WDIF which says they could be used to work with pictures" => well sure, but x86 and x86_64 and ARM and all archs have such instructions
18:46:39 <wob_jonas> dd could do it, but it was simpler to endian-swap the data in the program than to shell out to dd
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18:47:30 <zzo38> Clearly it depend what program you are making and what else it is doing I think, too. But yes, there is no point to shell out to dd, but you can use dd if you do not need the rest of the functions of the program also.
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18:48:33 <zzo38> What I meant thought about the endianness is, for example, Scale2x algorithm only cares if pixels are equal and not their value, so endianness is irrelevant. It will work whether you load the program on a small-endian computer or on a big-endian computer.
18:49:01 <zemhill> kerbal.Checkers: points -2.86, score 19.76, rank 16/47 (--)
18:51:00 <zzo38> Does x86 and ARM have the instruction to swap endianness of four 16-bit values in one register all at once? I don't know much about them, I think they are becoming too much complicated istructions sets anyways
18:51:10 <kerbal> I have built the best BF Jouster ever.
18:51:14 <zemhill> kerbal.Horrible: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
18:51:19 <zemhill> kerbal.Horrible: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
18:52:41 <wob_jonas> "swap endianness of four 16-bit values in one register all at once" => I think it has that from the SSE4.1 extension (that can do eight 16-bit values actually), before that it takes probably four instructions
18:53:02 <zzo38> (My implementation of Scale2x with farbfeld just treats each pixel as a native 64-bit number.)
18:53:07 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Ah, OK.
18:53:11 <wob_jonas> I'm not too familiar with ARM, sorry
18:53:21 <wob_jonas> I can point to reference docs if you really want to find out
18:53:51 <shachaf> wob_jonas: The algebraic structure of the reals seems pretty irrelevant to many topological uses.
18:54:48 <zzo38> It is OK if you don't know
18:54:58 <zzo38> I just wanted to know, if you do know.
18:55:24 <wob_jonas> I can look up the x86 stuff easier because I'm familiar with the references
18:56:55 <zzo38> But I think the modern x86 and ARM instruction sets are way too complicated, in my opinion; MMIX is better.
18:57:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that is certain, they both have too much historical cruft on them
18:58:46 <wob_jonas> the newer an instruction set is, the more modern they can design it, but then it gets harder to make a cpu that efficiently runs both that and a legacy instrset, and also hard to gradually improve existing compilers and similar low-level tools to work with the new instrset
19:00:42 <wob_jonas> And it costs a shitton to design a new modern cpu core, so very few hw manufacturers do it, and they're only willing to do if they're sure they can sell a lot of that cpu (whether indirectly through licensing the plans like AMD or directly like Intel and ARM)
19:02:10 <wob_jonas> "istr it's in a "so obviously tc ais523 got too bored to write it down" state." => yes, we don't yet know if three-star programmer is TC
19:02:34 <rdococ> I'm pretty sure I read that it was
19:03:06 <wob_jonas> dofuck (brainfuck where brackets always do at least one iteration) is an example for a language where we're sure it's TC, and you can compile bf efficiently to it, modulo a certain limitation on IO, but everyone is lazy to write it down
19:03:20 <zzo38> GCC already supports MMIX, and I think also RISC-V.
19:09:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I argue in the esowiki article that there are some good reasons why MMIX in its current state is better as an educational machine than a real hw arch. Just a gcc port to a risc arch isn't too hard, so if you wanted to start a new *popular* architecture (which costs a shitton) then you'd better use some other arch that takes only the good ide
19:09:56 <wob_jonas> as from MMIX. You need a lot more support than just a compiler.
19:11:13 <wob_jonas> rdococ: the esowiki says at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer#Computational_class that it's not known to be TC
19:12:33 <HackEgo> 2017-06-10 18:12:21.816737000+00:00
19:14:06 <zzo38> One thing I would prefer doing is simpler virtual addressing. Depending what is being used for you might not even need virtual addressing at all.
19:15:09 <wob_jonas> I think that's backwards. I do like virtual addressing, and MMIX's is not too bad, the only big problem is that it doesn't support pages that are visible only from kernel modes.
19:15:35 <wob_jonas> Obviously virtual addressing is good only if the page sizes aren't too small. If they're too small, then it slows the whole caching and memory access down.
19:16:16 <wob_jonas> The 4k page size on x86 is IMO a big problem, and I wish they found a way to increase the page size to 8k or 16k, but I don't know if it's possible without throwing out the whole architecture and cpu.
19:16:58 <wob_jonas> it's one of the historical baggages of course, 4k page size was not a problem back when the 386 got released
19:18:34 <zzo38> I think that virtual addressing makes it complicated so it should be simplified or discarded. If I was designing the computer using it, probably it would not have virtual addressing (although the idea of MMIX where negative addresses are reserved for the operating system is actually the same kind of idea I had for a new computer design too).
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19:19:32 <wob_jonas> obviously having a register stack like MMIX somewhat counters this problem, because you rely less on low latency memory accesses then
19:19:53 <wob_jonas> MMIX isn't ideal either, but a register stack is a good idea
19:20:09 <zzo38> Do you think RISC-V is better?
19:20:52 <wob_jonas> I don't know anything about RISC-V
19:23:59 <wob_jonas> basically I figured, since we're going to use x86_64 for high-performance desktop computers in the next 15 years too, I'm more interested in learning all its tricks rather than learning better architectures
19:24:49 <wob_jonas> it's of course a moving target, because x86_64 is changing too, but still
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19:30:43 <zzo38> I was making the computer design and have not yet decided what kind of instruction set to use for the main instruction set, although it might be MMIX, or possibly a VAX-like instruction set (although with many of the complicated stuff removed); I don't know yet.
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19:33:15 <wob_jonas> what kind of computer design? what's your goal?
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19:36:14 <zzo38> To be a new patent-free computer design that is not too complicated, and to do the stuff that I think is good idea too. This includes though not only the computer design, but other stuff too such as cables that can be disconnected at both ends, a keyboard like the original IBM PC model F keyboard (with unlimited rollover), and other stuff.
19:37:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52132&oldid=52131 * Raddish0 * (-3) /* Built-in functions */
19:37:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you want to make at least one hardware implementation?
19:38:22 <zzo38> I would use IMIDI for connecting input devices, and there are four such ports numbered I to IV, normally IV is for the keyboard (except for four player games), and then for two player games you will connect the game controls to port I and II.
19:38:37 <wob_jonas> and do you want a C compiler for this, do you want a working port of linux (kernel) for it?
19:38:54 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, it is my intention. Although is also intended all free open-source, anyone can study and can duplicate the design.
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19:39:11 <zzo38> The restriction is that the trademark is reserved for versions that are 100% compatible with it.
19:39:33 <wob_jonas> can you use an existing ARM cpu for this?
19:39:40 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I would probably instead make a simpler operating system design.
19:40:11 <zzo38> I did think about using a ARMv2 CPU; I have not yet decided.
19:41:30 <zzo38> Yes, although the newer ones are too complicated as well as patented.
19:43:44 <wob_jonas> how powerful a graphics card would you like for this?
19:45:19 <zzo38> My idea is simpler it is a single-tasking system, and much of the I/O functions do not need accessing the operating system (although some do), although the user program is non-relocatable, it can import relocatable programs into itself dynamically, and an interface is designed for this, somewhat similar to UNIX pipes.
19:46:00 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I designed it with tile-based graphics, based somewhat on the PC and Amiga, although it has its own "video instruction set" too.
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19:46:28 <zzo38> You can make the tile height whatever you want, although tile width is always 8 pixels. You can also have sprites.
19:47:42 <zzo38> There is the display list, so you can use that to change video modes during each scanline, to implement scrolling, upside-down tiles, and whatever else. Tile height also needs a loop in the display list since the native tile height is only 1 pixel.
19:48:11 <zzo38> (You can make larger tile heights by altering the pattern table address during each scanline.)
19:50:32 <zzo38> Sprites similar to Famicom and those stuff
19:50:34 <wob_jonas> I don't know what Amiga sprites are like, and PC only has the one cursor
19:51:27 <wob_jonas> I don't know much about what Famicom sprites can do either
19:52:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52133&oldid=52132 * Raddish0 * (+326) /* Built-in functions */ Added multiple implicit evaluation
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19:53:19 <wob_jonas> like, what size are the sprites, how many colors can the graphics of one sprite have, and what transforms can you do on the sprite (double height, double width, transparent, palette changes for each individual sprite, hflip, vflip, etc)
19:53:48 <wob_jonas> also, would you have multiple layers of tiles like the SNES has, or only one layer of tiles plus one layer of sprites?
19:53:58 <zzo38> Only one layer of each.
19:54:24 <zzo38> However, you could make sprites display behind the playfield if you want to.
19:54:26 <wob_jonas> and can you have sprites that are partly behind tiles, in that some colors in tiles hide the sprite?
19:55:45 <zzo38> I would have with 8x8 and 8x16 sprites, up to 15 colours per sprite, you can change the palette per sprite but only to XOR the colour map, and there is hflip and vflip, but no double width. Double height is possible in software, by writing a display list to implement them.
19:56:20 <wob_jonas> so there's a palette of 15 or 16 colors that applies to all sprites together?
19:56:27 <zzo38> Another feature I put in for the sprites though is the ability for sprites to alter the background pattern (this can be set per sprite); the PC text cursor can be imitated by doing this.
19:57:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, there is a palette of 16 colours that applies to all of the sprites together (but you can change the palette between scanlines). Which 15 of those 16 colours are available depends on the mask that you set.
19:57:49 <wob_jonas> if you can alter the tiles palette per scanline, then you don't need sprites for a PC-like cursor. just reserve two colors for the cell (or two cells) the cursor is in, and in the scanlines where the cursor is visible, swap their palette entries
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19:59:26 <zzo38> My idea actually had it blinking from the display list program rather than from the CPU.
20:02:21 <wob_jonas> if you do so much from the display list, even changing which row of a tile is shown, then how will the graphics card have enough time to interpret the display list between scanlines?
20:02:36 <wob_jonas> I mean, it could work ahead a bit, but still
20:03:35 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It is interpreted during hblank and vblank, two clock cycles per pixel. There is self-modifying code (and it is sometimes needed, since the video instruction set I designed does not support indexed addressing modes).
20:04:02 <zzo38> I will have to see about the time available during the hblank.
20:04:44 <wob_jonas> also, isn't 8 pixel wide tiles too limiting? wouldn't it be better to have a mode for 16 wide tiles? and possibly 16 wide sprites too.
20:04:52 <zzo38> You can though also unroll loops if you need to
20:05:08 <zzo38> A mode for 16 pixels wide might be added, yes, the design isn't final yet so such changes are possible.
20:05:21 <wob_jonas> I mean, in practice it doesn't seem too limiting, because lots of games use 16-wide tiles when the gpu only allows 8 wide, but still
20:05:26 <zzo38> (There is, however, already a mode to make everything on the scanline double width.)
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> I don't want just double width, but actually 16 pixel wide graphics
20:06:53 <wob_jonas> can you hscroll the tile output to single pixel granularity?
20:07:29 <zzo38> Yes there is a "fine X scroll" register.
20:09:23 <wob_jonas> at maximum how wide is the displayble part of scanlines?
20:09:38 <wob_jonas> (like in pixels or in 8-pixel tiles or something)
20:10:01 <wob_jonas> or is that limited only by how much video memory you have for the tilemap?
20:10:26 <wob_jonas> or by the pixel clock frequency rather
20:10:35 <wob_jonas> what pixel clock freq would you like?
20:10:36 <zzo38> I think probably it is 320x240 in low resolution mode, although there might be also a high resolution mode. (This is in pixels.) However, the "virtual" playfield size can be whatever number you want.
20:11:34 <zzo38> I am nore sure yet about clock frequencies.
20:11:49 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Progressive; there is no 240 interlaced mode, only 480 interlaced.
20:12:07 <wob_jonas> the resolution already more or less determines what clock frequency you need
20:12:10 <zzo38> If there are any resolutions higher than 320x240 they will be digital-only; the 320x240 resolution supports both analog and digital.
20:12:19 <wob_jonas> (at least puts a lower cap on it that is)
20:12:31 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, I thought so, although have been unable to achieve a precise answer in my various asking.
20:13:54 <wob_jonas> 320x240 is very small though. that's only 40 columns of text
20:14:35 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, I know. However, analog video output will be limited to that; there may be higher resolution modes too, although they will only support digital displays and not analog.
20:14:59 <zzo38> The main and video share memory, so they would have the same clock rate (and be clock interleaved; this means the main CPU can execute at double speed when video is disabled), although audio has separate memory (with 16-bit bytes) and has a separate clock rate too, which I have already decided must be a multiple of 44100 Hz, so that you can play back audio CDs.
20:15:18 <wob_jonas> sure, it's just that if you want twice as wide and twice as high resolution, then you need almost four times as high clock cycle
20:15:38 <wob_jonas> which makes a lot of demand on the hardware, especially if you're serious about interpreting two instructions per pixel, which sounds ridiculously fast to me by the way
20:16:48 <wob_jonas> couldn't you interpret instructions in the view list slower, but have eight set of control registers so the display list can work ahead modifying any set, and then activate any set for any scanline?
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20:17:23 <wob_jonas> of course if you have to manually adjust the tile AND sprite address offsets every row, rather than have that in hw, then you still need to do some work per scanline,
20:17:42 <wob_jonas> usually there are a lot of options you only want to change a few times per screen, not every scanline
20:17:46 <zzo38> That is another possibility, although I don't quite know yet
20:22:47 <shachaf> I wish I still had a copy of monqy's self-portrait of me.
20:23:25 <wob_jonas> you made a ghost-painter paint your self-portrait?
20:23:55 <kerbal> How does someone else do a self portrait of you?
20:25:36 <wob_jonas> kerbal: maybe it's like those mediaeval painters who had a small set of apprentices painting authentic paintings in the master's name, one of them could paint a portrait of the master. or like when Asimov allowed the three B authors to write official Foundation novels.
20:25:57 <kerbal> wob_jonas: Maybe so, or maybe it's a clone
20:26:16 <kerbal> Does zzo38 have lots of clones of himself lying around?
20:26:25 <zzo38> kerbal: I think not.
20:26:44 <kerbal> Unfortunate. Everyone needs a couple of clones
20:27:18 <zzo38> I don't want to increase the population too much
20:28:24 <zzo38> My design for the audio is also somewhat based on Amiga, although with 16-bits instead of 8-bits. There will be some way to send data block from main CPU to the audio processor, in a buffer or whatever, and then it can process.
20:29:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: audio? why do you want audio at all? don't you want a small design you can actually finish?
20:29:45 <zzo38> It might be done partially at a time I suppose; it does not need made all at once.
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20:30:08 <wob_jonas> just add a single-tone beeper or a relay to the on-off switch of an external FM radio so it can wake you up in the morning
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20:32:09 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> It might be done partially at a time I suppose; it does not need made all at once." => yeah, that's true
20:32:31 <wob_jonas> I hope you add a serial port or something so it can communicate with other computers and the internet through a proxy
20:34:36 <wob_jonas> you could do that even before there's a video output
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20:38:35 <zzo38> Yes there will be a RS-232 port for sure (my original design didn't have it but someone with me at the time mentioned it, and so I put it in because it is important), and there is intending to be ethernet too (although not wireless).
20:38:43 <zzo38> (The only wireless feature is a infrared receiver port)
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20:40:15 <zzo38> But yes some of this stuff can be done for testing even before the other stuff is made up.
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20:44:19 <zzo38> The primary input devices (the game controls and the QWERTY keyboard, and you can even add others too if you wanted to) will be IMIDI (which uses the same protocol as MIDI, although it uses two-way communications and isn't necessarily only for music, and may have some differences in electrical specifications too).
20:45:34 <wob_jonas> you can start with the serial console being primary input, and add the keyboard later
20:46:18 <wob_jonas> but then you can also start with keyboard if you want
20:48:20 <wob_jonas> what kind of storage device (disk) do you want for this computer?
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20:50:03 <zzo38> I think will have CompactFlash, a hard drive, and CD/DVD (read-only) drive. Possibly the first version might have only one or two kinds though, and then eventually will have all three.
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20:55:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52134&oldid=52133 * Raddish0 * (-89) found that there were 2 "duplicate" instructions
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20:58:54 <kerbal> So, a language design question. In my language, the only datatype is the integer. If I added user-defined "operators" (which, in Integ, are basically functions called with a unique symbol) to the language, would that be violating the "integer-only" rule?
21:00:49 <Warrigal> Not if operators can't be stored in variables, passed around, and so forth.
21:02:42 <kerbal> Does the operator name by which it is defined count as a variable?
21:03:22 <zzo38> I wouldn't think so? Unless it is a variable.
21:04:21 <kerbal> For instance, in Python, is the name hi in def hi(): pass considered a variable?
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21:05:19 <zzo38> I don't know Python programming so well
21:06:49 <kerbal> What about hi in the C code void hi(){}; ?
21:07:18 <kerbal> My basic question is, are those names considered variables or something else
21:07:47 <zzo38> It is still a name, although not a variable. The same names are used though for variables, I think
21:08:49 <wob_jonas> in python and C, you can have variables that point to a function, and you can abstract over such a variable, that is, write a function that takes a function as a parameter or that return a function
21:08:59 <wob_jonas> that's what makes C and python have first-class functions
21:10:45 <zzo38> Yes, you can have function pointers in C.
21:29:28 <zzo38> Now I made up the Gaussian blur program
21:30:42 <wob_jonas> that's useful, I do gaussian blurs sometimes in gimp and other programs
21:31:25 <zzo38> There is a separate program for Gaussian blur and for general convolution, because a Gaussian filter can be done with a separate horizontal and vertical pass.
21:32:57 <zzo38> I also have a program for the Scale2x algorithm, for tensor product of two pictures, for elementary cellular automata, and slew rate limiter, and a lot of other stuff. I know some people find no program is suitable so they use multiple programs.
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21:35:24 <zzo38> There is a description of slew rate on Wikipedia, although this implementation is two-dimensional, and allows separate positive and negative slew rates, as well as separate for horizontal and vertical.
21:36:36 <zzo38> You should look at list of the program I have to see what kind of effects there are. You can tell me what else you might want to add, too
21:43:18 <zzo38> If you use the program such as GIMP maybe you can know some idea how farbplug can be designed, and then any of these and other program that work with farbfeld pictures with pipes can be used as a plugin for GIMP as well as other programs.
21:44:13 <wob_jonas> I haven't looked at how extending gimp works at all.
21:46:11 <zzo38> I partially made up the description of farbplug http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=Farbplug
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21:47:34 <zzo38> Is not meant to be only for GIMP, but may be use with others programs too, by converting Farbplug specifications into whatever plugin format is needed by that program.
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21:57:05 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't think I'd use that. instead of using farbplug to have farbfeld use other formats, I'd suggest using ImageMagick to use any format including farbfeld. ImageMagick already handles all this plugin thing.
21:57:44 <wob_jonas> If I wanted to use farbfeld often, then I'd probably try to hook it up into ImageMagicks.
21:58:55 <zzo38> I also think is missing farbfeld from ImageMagick too
21:59:40 <zzo38> There is a GIMP plugin to load/save farbfeld, but it isn't very good it only supports files and not pipes.
22:00:43 <zzo38> I used to use ImageMagick, but now I do not use it much and use farbfeld instead mostly.
22:03:14 <zzo38> However, you can still suggest what program can be added into the Farbfeld Utilities if you have some suggestion.
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23:10:11 <Taneb> Theory: what's going on in Girl Genius right now is being masterminded by the Castle as a ploy to get back into Paris' network
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23:27:04 <HackEgo> damnation//The Damnation was an evil empire of yore, until the dam no longer held and they got flooded.
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00:11:49 <int-e> Taneb: seems a bit far-stretched to me... though I will reconsider my opinion if the train starts eating townsfolk.
00:15:58 <oerjan> are you discussing girl genius
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00:17:37 <int-e> no, Agatha is an angel, she would not conspire against anybody *runs* *ducks*
00:18:30 <oerjan> i was mostly imagining the train going rogue again
00:18:59 <int-e> I'm waiting for the wasps
00:19:24 <boily> everybody's waiting for a girl-wasp-duck-train-thing ♪
00:19:28 <int-e> and I'm wondering whether even the Foglios know how many conspiracies are under way in Paris at this time :P
00:19:51 <int-e> as in, duck the train?
00:20:36 <int-e> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/435.html
00:21:14 <int-e> (one of a few IWC strips that I still remember)
00:25:59 <int-e> shachaf: I bought Obduction and I think I'm enjoying it more than The Witness, though a lot of this joy may actually be nostalgia (it does remind me a lot of the Myst series, though the setting is quite different).
00:39:52 <\oren\> ok I just realized that the choreography for this song includes a nazi salute
00:40:11 <\oren\> and they cut it out from the official video lol
00:40:19 <oerjan> int-e: iwc is still ongoing hth
00:41:51 <oerjan> well there was a hiatus
00:41:53 <int-e> it ended, it resumed with reruns.
00:41:56 <\oren\> but all the live versions have jonghyun doing a hitler salute
00:42:10 <boily> he\\oren\. it looks like you are watching k-pop.
00:42:18 <oerjan> int-e: it's resumed with original comics since then hth
00:42:24 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic6LKBbv43k
00:42:33 <\oren\> boily: look what he does at 1:15
00:42:43 <int-e> the webcomic landscape has gotten much richer in the meantime
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00:50:04 <\oren\> probably they didn't realize until the editing stage for the video? and realized that for an international audience they couldn't have those military looking uniforms *and* a nazi salute
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01:11:14 <Sgeo> Is "1-bit ALU" in fact an accurate term to describe a logic gate that's reprogrammable with a 4-bit instruction?
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01:29:24 <\oren\> Sgeo: calling it a "aritmetic and logic" unit might be iffy. maybe just a "LU"
01:32:02 <Sgeo> I do see references online to 1-bit ALUs
01:33:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ehulinsky * New user account
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02:23:54 <zzo38> How many Z-machine implementations did you make up?
02:39:41 <Sgeo> I have made 0 Z-machine implementations, and 1 1-bit ALU.
02:40:13 <Sgeo> And a device that I don't think technically counts as an ALU because it doesn't accept an instruction, but rather outputs all the possible logic gates on different lines.
02:46:38 <zzo38> It should be easily enough converting numbers to/from PDP-endian with MMIX (by using a MOR instruction). If you need sign extensions, you can use MOR followed by SR.
02:49:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52135&oldid=52086 * Ehulinsky * (+51)
02:49:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Drawkcab]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52136&oldid=14479 * Ehulinsky * (+405) Added link to compiler, added versions of drawkcab
02:50:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ehulinsky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52137 * Ehulinsky * (+4) Created page with "Sup."
02:50:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Drawkcab]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52138&oldid=52136 * Ehulinsky * (+3)
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03:38:20 <shachaf> 19:32 <shachaf> So the Cantor set is the set of infinite paths through a complete infinite binary tree.
03:38:23 <shachaf> 19:33 <shachaf> The reals are what you get if you say that, if a path keeps going down the right branch forever, it reaches the same point as if you started at the next internal node over and went down the left branch forever.
03:39:33 <oerjan> well technically you only get the unit interval hth
03:48:39 <int-e> Sgeo: your device sounds wonderful, you could attach it to a 16 to 1 demux to obtain a 4 to 1 demux ;-)
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03:50:39 <int-e> (this is probably about as useful as implementing an arbitrary boolean circuit with and, or, and at most two not gates)
03:56:15 <shachaf> oerjan: that's true but doesn't really change anything does it
03:56:25 <shachaf> you can just drop the leftmost and rightmost paths
03:58:06 <shachaf> Anyway, this is like a kind of graph, right?
03:58:17 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/GUf7hbpmFLg?t=2m19s <- I defy you to tell me that's not a hitler salute
03:58:28 <shachaf> Do graph people talk about these kinds of graphs?
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04:43:10 <HackEgo> 1/3:surreal number//Surrey numbers are very county, as long as they're not Spelthorne. \ hackego//HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
04:43:47 <HackEgo> 2/3:\ `1//`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly almost the obvious generalization of `4. \ supermarioperator//supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another ca
04:43:51 <HackEgo> 3/3:stle. \ dynamic-unwind//dynamic-unwind is just like dynamic-wind except that it's a different sort of weather.
04:44:27 <HackEgo> 10950:2017-05-24 <oerjän> slwd `1//s,ly,ly almost, \ 10918:2017-05-20 <shachäf> le/rn_append `1//Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. \ 10917:2017-05-20 <oerjän> revert \ 10916:2017-05-20 <oerjän> le/rn_append `1//Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `4. \ 10144:2017-01-19 <oerjän> learn `1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <c
04:44:52 <zzo38> I found a new random number generator which is "PCG" that someone else told me on another IRC. Now I made a implementation of it with MMIX.
04:46:52 <shachaf> I'd rather fix `4 not to support quote.
04:47:16 <shachaf> People mostly use `5 with w, anyway.
04:48:25 <zzo38> (I also copied the C code into another C program, in order to test that it is same output. It is same output, so it is OK)
04:58:35 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/BdWB
05:19:20 <zzo38> The first operand is the destination register and other two are source registers, the "U" means unsigned, # indicates hexadecimal, and the MOR instruction with the right operand #88442211 means that the high and low 32-bits are ORed together to produce a 32-bit result.
05:21:19 <zzo38> Only the stuff between the [[[[ ]]]] is the actual random number generator code; RNGCON and RNGMOR are also constants; RNGST is a variable; RNGINC can be either a constant or variable. The codes below the random number generator code are just used for output.
05:21:26 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like mushrooms?
05:21:56 <zzo38> I don't know, I just don't
05:22:47 <shachaf> The taste, the appearance?
05:22:57 <shachaf> I think fungi are p. neat.
05:23:27 <zzo38> To eat, which is what I thought you meant.
05:23:54 <shachaf> Which kind don't you like to eat? All fungi?
05:25:25 <pikhq_> I suspect you eat bread?
05:26:59 <zzo38> Yes, but I don't like mushrooms.
05:28:08 <shachaf> pikhq_: Do you like mushrooms?
05:28:49 <HackEgo> 1185) <kmc> i came back here and misread my own statement as "fancy C++ mushrooms" \ 1239) <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
05:29:10 <shachaf> kmc: whoa whoa whoa, what's this about fancy C++ mushrooms twh
05:29:26 <HackEgo> 11001:2017-06-06 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s/, sa/, mushrooms&/ \ 5869:2015-07-24 <Phantom_Hoovër> learn supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom \ 5533:2015-06-12 <boil̈y> addquote <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom \ 5528:2015-06-12 <boil̈y> addquote <HackEgo> badger badge
05:29:45 <HackEgo> 2/2:adger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom \ 4625:2014-05-01 <oerjän> addquote <kmc> i came back here and misread my own statement as "fancy C++ mushrooms"
05:31:07 <kmc> I like mushrooms
05:31:23 <kmc> a C++ mushroom might be poisonous
05:31:30 <kmc> I like C++ too
05:31:34 <kmc> it's the best esolang
05:31:40 <zzo38> But do you like MMIX?
05:31:45 <kmc> zzo38: haven't used it
05:32:11 <shachaf> do you like honeypot megamix
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05:32:26 <kmc> don't know what that is
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05:32:34 <shachaf> http://tinyurl.com/honeypot-megamix
05:32:38 <shachaf> i also don't know what it is
05:35:55 <zzo38> You can see MMIX program if you want to which is the program I linked is one such program.
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05:38:33 <kmc> TIL that you can declare C++ methods like so: https://godbolt.org/g/Lc815M
05:38:37 <kmc> it slightly makes sense, but is also terrible
05:38:52 <kmc> I saw real code doing this and I was like... no
05:41:29 <shachaf> would you be opposed to "int get_x(), get_y();"
05:42:06 <pikhq_> I mean... Of course that works, but...
05:43:17 <kmc> shachaf: yes
05:43:21 <kmc> also hi pikhq_ :)
05:49:27 <shachaf> should c++ support void values
05:49:31 <shachaf> does rust support void values
05:49:57 <shachaf> should void just be a struct {} type rather than a built-in
06:01:47 <pikhq_> I dunno, but IIRC in GNU C sizeof(void) is 1.
06:07:14 <zzo38> I think the MOR instruction in MMIX can have many kind of uses, including: endianness conversion (including PDP-endian), bit rotation (combining with SLU), multiplying a unsigned 8-bit number by 257, etc.
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06:09:28 <zzo38> There is also the instruction MXOR, which is similar.
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06:10:54 <zzo38> There is no sign extension in MMIX other than loading aligned big-endian numbers and with SR instruction, although you can use MOR followed by SR in order to convert endianness including sign extension.
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07:44:10 <zzo38> I found the wisdom file for "oya yakuman". I do know what it is; it is something in mahjong.
07:56:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52139&oldid=52094 * Ais523 * (+16) /* F */ +[[Footsteps]]
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08:21:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Footsteps]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52140 * Ais523 * (+3335) new language
08:21:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52141&oldid=51665 * Ais523 * (+15) +[[Footsteps]]
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09:37:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52142&oldid=52139 * Ais523 * (+13) /* C */ +[[Conedy]]
10:06:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Conedy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52143 * Ais523 * (+3592) I've been meaning to write this for a while
10:07:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52144&oldid=52141 * Ais523 * (+12) +[[Conedy
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13:44:02 <HackEgo> dingas//The sound of a Baltic bell. It chimes like potatoes.
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15:12:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> `5 q is not so bad <-- i don't think we have a q command.
15:12:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: q: not found
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15:44:24 <int-e> . o O ( what would a question mark version of ❣ look like? )
15:46:23 <HackEgo> Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
15:46:52 <int-e> . o O ( ☃ is a pre-puddle )
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17:11:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slow: not found
17:11:17 <int-e> how does that command not exist :P
17:11:34 <int-e> I thought hackego implemented all four letter words by now.
17:12:31 <oerjan> you're confusing it with `slwo or `sowl, obviously.
17:13:20 <wob_jonas> both the GSL and the boost random library collect several historical random generators. funnily, neither of them currently have the generator from Stanford GraphBase, despite that there doesn't seem to be any obstacle of using it.
17:13:27 <oerjan> also, you need `sloa to check slowness outside wisdom/, naturally.
17:14:36 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> should c++ support void values" => there are serious proposals for making it support void values. there's basically only two minor problems with it, and the proposal solves one of them.
17:16:06 <wob_jonas> The first problem is a syntactical ambiguity, because for C compatibility, int f(void); declares a zero-arg function, but if void is a type, then this looks as if it tried to declare a one-arg function. The proposal solves this by saying who cares, it's still a zero-arg function, and you should write int f(void a); or some other workaround if you w
17:16:07 <wob_jonas> ant to declare a one-arg function taking a void.
17:16:09 <oerjan> `learn An oal is a bird that is not necessarily wise.
17:16:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'oal': An oal is a bird that is not necessarily wise.
17:17:36 <int-e> . o O ( it disposes co-wisdom out of its co-beak? )
17:17:47 <wob_jonas> The second problem is that if void became a real type, then you could define overloads of the comma operator like int operator,(void x, mytype y); which breaks existing library function templates or macros that rightly assume that the comma operator with a void on either side isn't overloadable.
17:18:04 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but co-wisdoms are _so_ pre-rdococ
17:20:41 <int-e> . o O ( ironically, C uses f(void) for a zero-argument function for C compatibility )
17:21:36 <oerjan> that sounds more circular than ironic
17:21:54 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, I don't think so. int f(void); is entirely new to C, even the void keyword didn't exist before, it got added as disambiguation because int f(); was used to declare an old-style (non-prototype) function.
17:22:00 <int-e> oerjan: well, it is not actually circular.
17:22:23 <int-e> wob_jonas: yes, that's what I meant.
17:22:43 <wob_jonas> it uses int f(void); so that int f(); is C-compatible
17:22:55 <oerjan> so not circular, just roundabout
17:33:04 <alercah> wob_jonas: void f() was a thing for a long time wasn't it?
17:33:34 <wob_jonas> they just wrote int f() instead in older versions of C
17:33:50 <wob_jonas> or just f(); without a type, which defaulted to int for non-prototyped functions
17:34:37 <wob_jonas> but in C++ it always meant a nullary function, and C++ never allowed old-style function declarations, because C++ is big on typesafety
17:35:02 <wob_jonas> you can't even call a non-prototyped C function in C++
17:35:15 <wob_jonas> you have to give a prototype for it
17:36:26 <wob_jonas> (what I don't like is how C++ changes builtin comparison operators on builtin numeric types, so they return a different type than in any version of C)
17:36:46 <wob_jonas> (that's just so stupid and poinless and incompatible for incompatibility's sake)
17:37:37 <wob_jonas> (it almost never matters in C though, so it's very hard to get an incompatibility)
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18:02:18 <alercah> wob_jonas: I mean void as a return type
18:03:06 <wob_jonas> alercah: even as a return time, it didn't exist before ansi C. ansi C introduced prototypes, the void keyword, the signed keyword
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19:11:04 <lambdabot> CYUL 111800Z 23019G29KT 30SM FEW040 FEW100 FEW160 FEW240 28/17 A2976 RMK CU1AC1AC1CI1 CU TR AC TR CI TR SLP080 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
19:11:26 * boily sweats. “too hooooot...”
19:12:20 <lambdabot> LOWI 111750Z 06006KT CAVOK 27/12 Q1015 NOSIG
19:12:38 <int-e> well it's pleasant enough inside :P
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19:13:54 <int-e> "a bit of everything"?!
19:15:32 <boily> it's going to get warmer today. strong winds, all the clouds, perfect conditions for an evening thunderstorm.
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19:16:53 <int-e> I see what you did there now
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21:07:06 <int-e> shachaf: is this inspired by #haskell-lens?
21:12:55 <shachaf> Which also discusses hyperloglog occasionally, I guess is missing context.
21:13:58 <int-e> I just joined in case the pull request triggers any discussion; I expect none.
21:18:35 <shachaf> What about count-min sketch?
21:32:58 <zzo38> Now I fixed the Huffman tree optimization program in the JPEG encoder; now it work better and ImageMagick does not complain about an improper Huffman tree anymore.
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21:34:48 <zzo38> You can see its working if you look up the definition of "make_huffman_tree" in the file http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/raw/ffjpeg.c?name=529a52e5a68d18c772c514cc9e3bc3b74185185c
21:35:58 <zzo38> (It works by coin collecting. However, you can use this program even if you do not have any coins.)
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22:25:26 <zzo38> Which one you mean?
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22:25:55 <shachaf> Your Huffman tree optimization program.
22:40:26 <zzo38> However this program still isn't perfectly; sometimes I get better results than ImageMagick but usually worse, it seems.
22:42:21 <zzo38> I may have done something wrong in the implementation.
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00:04:14 <lambdabot> ENVA 112250Z 12005KT 9999 -RA FEW039 SCT074CB BKN098 14/12 Q0998 RMK WIND 670FT 23010KT
00:13:42 <lambdabot> EGLL 112250Z AUTO 25012KT 9999 FEW032 15/08 Q1015 NOSIG
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00:41:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Theking42 * New user account
00:45:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52145&oldid=52135 * Theking42 * (+148) /* Introductions */
00:45:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Total BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52146&oldid=28221 * Theking42 * (+43) Added some categories
00:50:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Total]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52147 * Theking42 * (+585) Created page with "A total programming language is one in which all programs are guaranteed to terminate. As such, such languages are not Turing complete. It is also impossible to implement a se..."
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01:07:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Total]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52148&oldid=52147 * Theking42 * (+203)
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03:15:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PedroContipelli * New user account
03:24:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52149&oldid=52145 * PedroContipelli * (+115)
03:24:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52150&oldid=52142 * PedroContipelli * (+11)
03:31:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52151&oldid=52150 * Oerjan * (-11) Undo revision 52150 by [[Special:Contributions/PedroContipelli|PedroContipelli]] ([[User talk:PedroContipelli|talk]]) (We have that in the joke language list)
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05:48:02 <zzo38> Is this document OK? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffjpeg
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06:52:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Kangaroo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52152 * Zzo38 * (+288) /* Matrix Kangaroo */ new section
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12:15:30 <HackEgo> usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton.
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12:21:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Footsteps]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52153 * Keymaker * (+407) More undefined behaviour?
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12:52:41 <int-e> . o O ( shouldn't it be "unified" or "universal" )
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17:25:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52154&oldid=52115 * MD XF * (+184) Triangular
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19:28:23 <Kerbal> Hey, is the user who wrote Triangular online? I have a question for him or her
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20:04:18 <zzo38> Does MMIX define a specific method of converting between single precision and double precision numbers?
20:05:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, but it only stores double precision in registers (just like how traditional 387 only stores extended precision in its registers), so it only has load and store single float instructions, and an instruction that rounds to a single but keeps the result in double format.
20:06:27 <zzo38> I know what instructions it has, I meant if there is a guaranteed result of the way the number is encoded when the conversion is done in either direction.
20:06:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: this is also analogous to how modern x86 only stores single and double precision in XMM/YMM registers, but now has instructions to load and store half-precision floats (at least one of the half-precision formats)
20:07:27 <int-e> you seem to be talking cross purposes
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20:08:06 <zzo38> int-e: I do not understand?
20:08:10 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't quite understand the question there. the single and double floating point formats are quite well specified, so there can only be flexibility when you need to represent a NaN value. I'm not sure if MMIX specifies how NaNs are represented, and it's possible you have to wait for reworked volume 4 for that.
20:08:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it works the same as other operations: you convert by taking the real value the source float represents, and taking the closest representable float in the destination format according to the roudning mode
20:09:39 <wob_jonas> so if the rounding mode is round to nearest, then it takes the float closest to the theoretical value, or the one with zero last bit if there's two equally close ones
20:09:55 <wob_jonas> just like how arithmetic on floats works, as explained in volume 3
20:10:14 <wob_jonas> I'm confused about volume numbers, but you know
20:10:19 <zzo38> I mean if you have one sequence of bits in one format and convert to the other format, if you are guaranteed to get the same sequence of bits as a result on all implementations or not.
20:10:20 <wob_jonas> volume 2 explains how floating point arithmetic works
20:10:35 <zzo38> (Assuming all of the modes and so on are set the same way)
20:10:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if the value is not NaN, and you use the same operations and same rounding mode, then you're definitely guaranteed the same sequence of bits in the result. If the value is a NaN, then I'm not sure.
20:12:19 <wob_jonas> For non-NaN, MMIX and other modern cpus work the same way, deterministically. For NaN results, I'm not sure what MMIX does, and x86 is a bit complicated and partly depends on what instructions you use and partly implementation-defined.
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20:13:45 <int-e> zzo38: I meant that you asked about how rounding is done and wob_jonas answered with when rounding is done... but it's all okay now
20:15:23 <zzo38> I think that may be a definition should be made up for if the value is NaN, probably whatever kind would be simplest in hardware while still resulting NaN, and then define it as that way.
20:16:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: there is probably a definition about how MMIX handles NaN, but I'm not sure if it's already in the volume 1 MMIX fascicle, or is only in MMIXware and the part of future volume 2 that talks about infinities and NaNs.
20:17:43 <zzo38> I do not actually have the book, but I can look in MMIXware and see if it says if it is supposed to be guaranteed.
20:21:28 <wob_jonas> Also, what I said above doesn't apply to the x87 transcendent instructions (F2XM1, FYL2X, FYL2XP1, FCOS, FSIN, FSINCOS, FPTAN, FPATAN), which are essentially not deterministic and partly implementation-defined; also nothing I say applies to 287 and 8087 (the chips before 387) which are not modern and has strange quirks.
20:21:49 <wob_jonas> But MMIX and SSE don't have such transcendental instructions, and these x87 ones are kept only for compatibility.
20:22:56 <zzo38> I am asking only about MMIX anyways
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20:23:54 <wob_jonas> Also the x87 extended precision (10 byte long) format has trap representations that are unsupported and behave in a mostly implementation-defined way, but you can only get those trap representations by directly loading them, not from loading singles or doubles or integers, nor from operations on non-trap representations.
20:27:32 <wob_jonas> As for NaN values on x86 architecture, the way x87 handles them is completely specified; MMX doesn't handle them at all; and the way SSE and modern extensions handles them is mostly but not completely specified (by at least one of Intel and AMD), but is different from the x87 method (and IMO worse). Let me look this up.
20:29:07 <wob_jonas> Obviously results are deterministic only if the settings in the relevant floating point control register (rounding mode and other flags) are given.
20:31:27 <wob_jonas> In the Intel 64 and IA-32 architectures software developer's manual, chapter 4.8.3 tells how NaN behaves.
20:33:26 <\oren\> there is legistlation being proposed
20:33:28 <\oren\> “Communications Over Various Feeds Electronically for Engagement” Act
20:36:15 <Kerbal> That actually makes sense
20:37:02 <wob_jonas> In the AMD manual (possibly an old version I have, I haven't checked for updates), for SSE instructions, chapter 4.3.3.3 is relevant about NaN ruels.
20:38:50 <wob_jonas> The situation is even better than I thought.
20:39:51 <wob_jonas> The representation of a NaN result used for SSE instructions (and modern extensions) is completely defined and so deterministic;
20:41:08 <wob_jonas> and for x87 instructions, Intel defines the result completely (but this is different from SSE instructions), and AMD defines them only almost completely but leaves the sign bit of the NaN implementation-defined in some cases.
20:42:09 <wob_jonas> This means that if you only use modern instructions (SSE, SSE2, AVX etc) on x86, then the floating point operation result is completely deterministic.
20:42:36 <wob_jonas> (Modern x86 does have some other implementation-defined behavior, but that has nothing to do with floating-point representations.)
20:43:51 <int-e> . o O ( it all started with CPUID *runs* )
20:43:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry for the confusion, and I'm glad I checked this
20:44:47 <wob_jonas> Oh, and by the way the AMD and the Intel definitions are compatible, so apart from that one implementation-defined sign bit on x87, and the other x87 stuff I mentioned above, the results are deterministic even across the two cpu manufacturers.
20:45:08 <wob_jonas> (This is a feature. AMD and Intel are deliberately making compatible cpus.)
20:45:49 <wob_jonas> However, the SSE rules mean that the results are deterministic only for machine code, not for C code.
20:46:39 <int-e> some x86 operations left some flags undefined, is that still the case? (stuff like aaa, aas, das, daa, aam, aad)
20:47:20 <wob_jonas> If you write x+y in C code where x and y are floats or doubles, C does not promise any particular NaN representation, and the compiler has the right to compile this as an addition with either x or y as the first input argument of the instruction, and the NaN representation of the results are different in those cases for some inputs.
20:47:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, there are some flags left in an implementation-defined state
20:48:37 <int-e> (of course those particular instructions have been dropped in x86_64 mode, so sad ;))
20:49:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, this still applies to x86_64 slightly: the OR instruction leaves the value of the AF flag implementation-defined.
20:49:55 <wob_jonas> The flag has an unspecified value after the instruction, but using it further isn't undefined behavior or anything crazy like that, it's just unpredictably 1 or 0.
20:50:22 <int-e> (do I still remember this snipped correctly? cmp al, 10; sbb al, 0x3f; das)
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20:51:39 <int-e> (I think I got this right: convert a value from 0 to 15 to a hex digit (upper case))
20:51:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52155&oldid=52126 * MD XF * (-207)
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20:52:54 <wob_jonas> The AND, OR, XOR, TEST instructions all leave AF in an undefined state (but then people almost never use AF, there aren't even conditional jumps using it, so you only read it by explicitly saving FLAGS or with the decimal instructions).
20:58:11 <wob_jonas> A more significant case is that the shift instructions (SAR, SHR, SHL, ROL, ROR, RCL, RCR, SHLD, SHRD) sometimes leave CF and/or OF (as well as AF) in an undefined state. The exact rules for when are complicated.
21:01:38 <wob_jonas> Yes, sometimes CF is undefined, depending on the exact operation and arguments and inputs.
21:03:47 <wob_jonas> Also the 386 bit scan instructions BSF, BSR leave the destination operand with an undefined value if no bit is found.
21:05:41 <int-e> I guess I only ever cared about CF for RCL, RCR and shifts/rotations by 1 bit.
21:06:00 <wob_jonas> I think the bitwise arithmetic and shift instructions leave some of the flags in an undefined state, because older cpus handle them in different ugly ways, so to define them, intel would have to write complicated documentation about what older cpus do. The bit scan instructions have a different cause: there 386 used to leave the destination registe
21:06:00 <wob_jonas> r unchanged, but insisting on that implementation would slow down modern cpus.
21:06:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: like I said, those flags are sometimes defined, the exact rules are in the Intel and AMD manuals. for the cases most programs care about, they're defined.
21:08:54 <wob_jonas> There are also some undefined results about memory accesses and IO that are essential, that is, caused not by historical compatibility, but because it would slow down the system to make caching or paging or multi-processor memory races deterministic.
21:10:20 <wob_jonas> And there's of course a lot of undefined behavior connected to operations or arguments or field values that are (or once were) reserved for future compatibility, especially with system instructions. There has to be some of these so that the cpu can be extended with new instructions or modes in the future.
21:11:12 <wob_jonas> But generally x86 doesn't have much cases of undefined results for no good reason. It tries to be deterministic and defined except in cases when there's a good reason (history or otherwise) not to.
21:14:27 <wob_jonas> And there are cases when some cases were undefined in past versions of the docs, but are defined retroactively for older cpus too in later versions of the docs because of new extensions.
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21:16:49 <wob_jonas> And there are a few borderline cases that used to be defined in old cpu manuals (like 286) but are now either undefined, or defined to always give an error in new cpus.
21:17:00 <wob_jonas> There's not many of these, because they like compatibility, but still.
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21:19:01 <wob_jonas> For example, on 8086, you could use the LOCK prefix with any instruction; now you can only use them with some instructions, and it gives a fault with some instructions that existed on 8086 like shifts.
21:21:47 <wob_jonas> The manuals don't completely define how very old cpus behave, but define a significant portion of it, enough to write typical non-obfuscated programs, and more than enough to write boot loaders that check what cpu they're running on and error out on old cpus.
21:22:37 <wob_jonas> Some of that information is delegated out of the main text to special compatibility chapters, because the main text doesn't want to bother saying "this feature isn't available on cpus older than 386 or 286" too many times.
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21:34:27 <Kerbal> Integ 1.1 is out at https://github.com/kerbin111/Integ. (Sorry, zzo38, but I haven't written the wiki article yet)
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21:35:43 <Kerbal> Integ 1.1 features time, random, and deallocation operators, as well as better error messaging and a better interpreter mode
21:35:51 <Kerbal> in the Python reference implementation
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22:40:00 <esoman> https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/110478/esoteric-programming-languages?referrer=FNgVtmBdD3clrEfV5E-5mg2
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23:18:31 <boily> I love my AC unit.
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23:40:33 <wob_jonas> In his feature article, Mark Rosewater announces that Wizards have once again found a way to print more new M:tG cards per year than before. This has happened like five times already.
23:40:54 <wob_jonas> Sure, he gives a nice explanation for why the changes are good, but still.
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23:41:40 <wob_jonas> If you don't care about Standard or new set drafts, you get few of the advantages, and the amount of new cards printed gets harder and harder to follow.
23:44:11 <boily> I don't think they are good or bad changes. just... changes.
23:44:18 <wob_jonas> oh yeah, linky http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/metamorphosis-2-0-2017-06-12
23:44:58 <wob_jonas> boily: I'm not saying they're bad alone, the bad part is that each time they change the structure, whether permanently or temporarily for just one set or block, it goes towards printing more new cards than before.
23:45:35 <wob_jonas> I've no clue what's in the last several years of sets because there are so many new cards that I didn't start to invest the time to get familiar with them.
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00:05:11 * oerjan read that as too morose
00:07:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: Unregistered HyperCamel 2 | empiric warbles | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
00:08:00 * oerjan looked up what warble means
00:08:07 -!- shachaf has set topic: Registered HyperCamel 2 | empiric warbles | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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00:30:39 <oerjan> . o O ( wob_jonas doesn't know when to stop answering questions )
00:31:16 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you say i don't know when to stop asking questions twh
00:31:31 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
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01:16:37 <doesthiswork> ist there a Plankalkül interpreter I can play with?
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02:18:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52156&oldid=52134 * Raddish0 * (+15) /* Built-in functions */
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03:33:01 <lifthrasiir> ...so that I can iterate more quickly (previously bounded by TTX compilation which is hella slow)
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17:22:50 <HackEgo> 500) <Phantom_Hoover> You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship?
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18:52:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Temporal logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52157&oldid=45424 * CatIsFluffy * (+0)
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18:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52158 * CatIsFluffy * (+142) Created page with "==Questions== What is the return value of alpha/=? ~~~~"
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19:34:42 <HackEgo> U+1F914 THINKING FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f a4 94 UTF-16BE: d83edd14 Decimal: 🤔 \ 🤔 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category:
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20:47:39 <moony> https://github.com/mame/radiation-hardened-quine/ im impressed. (You can delete any character from this quine and it will still output a undamaged copy of itself)
20:47:59 <moony> i wonder if we can somehow pull this off in, say, brainfuc
20:48:20 <kerbal> how many characters could you delete total if you were surgical, I wonder?
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22:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <moony> i wonder if we can somehow pull this off in, say, brainfuc
22:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you obv. can't because deleting any loop instruction will invalidate the entire program
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22:41:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52159&oldid=50195 * Enoua5 * (+32)
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00:34:29 <oerjan> @tell moony obviously you haven't seen the answers for https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/57257/radiation-hardened-quine
00:37:09 <oerjan> @tell kerbal hi there!
00:42:23 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:42:27 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
00:42:31 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
00:42:32 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
00:42:41 <lambdabot> hoogle <expr>. Haskell API Search for either names, or types.
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00:47:27 <lambdabot> Data.Function const :: a -> b -> a
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00:53:12 <kerbal> You people really thought of everything...
00:53:27 <kerbal> I'm working on a bot for #esoteric, if you don't mind
00:53:48 <kerbal> It will be able to interpret Integ, a language I designed
00:54:03 <kerbal> Do I have to get approval first?
00:54:25 <\oren\> we just kick bots if their anoying
00:54:50 <\oren\> and we feed them @botsnacks if they're good
00:55:34 <kerbal> That functionality specific to lambdabot? :)
00:55:48 <\oren\> hmm, not sure which bots support it
00:56:33 <kerbal> Are there any other functions that are implemented by most or many bots?
00:57:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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00:57:32 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo hi"]}
00:58:08 <\oren\> most of them have some sort of protection against bot-loops iirc
00:58:15 <j-bot> oerjan: |value error: hi
00:59:08 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
00:59:45 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:00:02 <kerbal> Doesn't zemhill also use !?
01:00:33 <oerjan> kerbal: yeah but it has only two commands so i never bothered including it.
01:01:06 <oerjan> although since EgoBot is never here any more...
01:01:34 <oerjan> (but that goes for several in the list)
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01:03:11 <j-bot> FireFly: |security violation: echo
01:03:11 <j-bot> FireFly: | echo'hi'
01:08:50 <j-bot> oerjan: |security violation: echo
01:08:50 <j-bot> oerjan: | echo'hi'
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01:13:32 <oerjan> kerbal: maybe Integbot to prevent boily from accidentally `welcoming it
01:14:20 <oerjan> the wiki seems downish
01:14:56 <oerjan> or at least slow and timing out
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01:18:36 <kerbal> That isn't my design... that's just an example code for the IRC python package. I might alter it to suit our purposes
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01:20:55 <boily> hellørjan! kellorbal!
01:21:27 <boily> I shall `relcome anybody who has to be `relcomed, be they human, robots, cyborgs or fungot.
01:21:27 <fungot> boily: anyway, the last one, from which you could...' is)
01:22:13 <kerbal> Actually, maybe I can avoid doing that
01:23:32 <kerbal> That is, tweak the code
01:24:09 <boily> kerbal: just for the record, are you human, what are your approximative geographic coördinates and body weigh?
01:26:12 <oerjan> `learn Humans are a species rumored to be a majority in the channel, although evidence seems inconclusive.
01:26:14 <HackEgo> Relearned 'human': Humans are a species rumored to be a majority in the channel, although evidence seems inconclusive.
01:26:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/human//Humans are constantly evolving, although not as fast as pokémons.
01:26:32 <kerbal> I am human. My body weight is between 1 and 1000 lbs. My latitude is between 89 N and 89 S and my longitude is between 180 W and 180 E
01:27:14 <oerjan> `learn_append human They are constantly evolving, although not as fast as pokémons.
01:27:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'human': Humans are a species rumored to be a majority in the channel, although evidence seems inconclusive. They are constantly evolving, although not as fast as pokémons.
01:27:28 <oerjan> `slwd human//s,although,but,
01:27:29 <HackEgo> human//Humans are a species rumored to be a majority in the channel, but evidence seems inconclusive. They are constantly evolving, although not as fast as pokémons.
01:28:30 <oerjan> boily: i sense you may have to treat kerbal as an outlier.
01:28:55 <oerjan> at least e didn't claim to be on mars.
01:29:12 <boily> or to be a celestial object.
01:29:39 <oerjan> has anyone claimed to _be_ mars? could get kinky.
01:30:01 <boily> just to be sure, regolite is only moondust?
01:30:23 <kerbal> Yep, I'm definitely one of you human people. I eat your human food and speak your human words
01:30:39 <boily> kerbal: DEFINITELY.
01:31:05 <oerjan> apparently not, even earth has some.
01:31:36 <oerjan> "Regolith is a layer of loose, heterogeneous superficial material covering solid rock. It includes dust, soil, broken rock, and other related materials and is present on Earth, the Moon, Mars, some asteroids, and other terrestrial planets and moons."
02:01:36 <kerbal> See if you can figure out which command it runs
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02:02:41 <kerbal> A hint: commands are of the form ;[command] arguments
02:02:56 <kerbal> and the implemented one already exists in other bots
02:04:54 <kerbal> Another hint: You're doing good, and the bots are too
02:05:51 <kerbal> From here, adding other commands shouldn't be hard
02:09:56 <kerbal> The Integ interpreter should be implemented tomorrow if all goes well
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02:20:05 <boily> hello abyss my old friend ♪
02:20:26 <HackEgo> In Soviet Russia, the abyss gazes into you first. Other than that, it's pretty much the same.
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04:18:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:atrocity//Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire. \ delaware//Delaware is a US state in which everybody speaks German. \ adventure//You're in a 20 foot by 20 foot stone room. A stout oaken door banded with iron affords the only visible egress. As you approach the door, an imp appears. "Hello, INSERT NAME. To pass, you must solve my puz
04:18:45 <HackEgo> 2/2:zle. SEE HANDOUT 1 ON PAGE 17." \ // would be the set of rational numbers, if the Unicode Consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ. \ certainly//We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor.
04:19:35 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you sure certainly isn't a functor?
04:20:16 <shachaf> if one of them is a monad the other one is a comonad hth
04:20:23 <shachaf> unless you're some sort of intuitionist wwnh
04:20:26 <oerjan> i think certainly is the comonad
04:20:35 <oerjan> because certainly X -> X
04:21:14 <oerjan> are comonads functors again
04:21:30 <shachaf> I think it's a functor but not an "internal" functor or something.
04:21:53 <shachaf> So (A -> B) -> (CA -> CB) isn't true, but on some meta level something similar is true.
04:21:57 <oerjan> it sends propositions to propositions, sounds pretty internal
04:22:54 <oerjan> `learn Eventually we'll have a better wisdom here.
04:22:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'eventually': Eventually we'll have a better wisdom here.
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04:27:17 <shachaf> i,i `le/rn always//The wisdom entry "eventually" will always be bad.
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04:54:33 <doesthiswork> wouter's automatic refactoring is pretty interesting http://strlen.com/restructor/
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08:07:33 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+003B SEMICOLON] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+003B SEMICOLON]
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08:18:16 <Taneb> I was told at a job interview on Thursday that I'd hear back from them Monday or Tuesday, and now it is Wednesday morning and I have not heard back
08:18:25 <Taneb> What's the appropriate thing to do here?
08:19:15 <shachaf> Send them an angry email cursing their ancestors?
08:19:36 <shachaf> I guess it depends on whether you want the job.
08:20:47 <olsner> "monday or tuesday" sounds like it could just as well mean wednesday or thursday
08:20:56 <shachaf> I think emailing them to follow up is reasonable but maybe not right on Wed morning.
08:22:06 <Taneb> OK, I will wait a bit longer
08:22:19 <Taneb> It is a job that I would quite like
08:23:36 <Taneb> A company in Cambridge called Myrtle, they do compilers targeting FPGAs and dedicated circuit type things
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08:27:40 <Taneb> What would the not-British thing to say be?
08:28:40 <shachaf> To me "vacancies" sounds like a hotel or something. Or otherwise very formal.
08:28:53 <shachaf> I think most US companies I've seen have a link that says "jobs" or "careers".
08:29:02 <shachaf> Instead of "vacancy" they might say "open position" or something.
08:30:32 <shachaf> Is this true: The bigger the (US) company the more likely they are to say "careers" instead of "jobs".
08:30:55 <shachaf> Small startups usually have a link saying "jobs", maybe because they likely won't exist in a few years.
08:31:17 <Taneb> Maybe if you hire someone to do HR for you they tend to use more formal language
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09:45:26 <shachaf> fizzie: That's in recruiter emails.
09:45:38 <shachaf> Though I do get email from British recruiters so who knows.
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16:27:16 <Cale> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/871405126/turing-tumble-gaming-on-a-mechanical-computer/
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18:22:43 <int-e> . o O ( QC is living up to its name once more )
18:24:57 <int-e> questrionable contents
18:25:15 <int-e> minus the r and the last s.
18:25:29 <int-e> It's atrocious typing day for me, apparently.
18:27:57 <\oren\> It's so weird how QC is now some sort of transhumanist fiction...
18:28:28 <\oren\> I remember a friend of mine being into it when it was about indie music
18:31:00 <\oren\> well, transhumanism and dick jokes
18:31:44 <int-e> the robots (except Pintsize) are essentially human anyway, they even blush
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19:48:00 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: I think you can compress neoletters.ttf into WOFF2 with more than 10x reduction
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20:03:23 <kerbal> Now I've got to actually finish the interpreter capability
20:04:02 <Integbot> You gave me a tasty hamburger!
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20:18:02 <Integbot> Unrecognized number of arguments
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20:22:38 <shachaf> Please take it to #esoteric-blah.
20:22:54 <shachaf> HackEgo and fungot bot spam is the only kind allowed in here.
20:22:54 <fungot> shachaf: cool... i just don't understand what you want.
20:23:04 <shachaf> fungot: you can't always get what you want, anyway
20:23:05 <fungot> shachaf: i am afraid i cannot find what i want
20:24:03 <shachaf> fungot: but if you try sometimes, well, you just might find you get what you need hth
20:24:03 <fungot> shachaf: identifier already imported... see fnord/ plt/ trunk/ src/ fnord
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20:32:39 <kerbal> ;integ }(0)(49)}(1)(56)}(2)(47)}(3)(1)~(0)(}(2)(+({(2))({(3)))]({(2))?(-(-({(0))(1))({(2)))(}(3)(1))()?(-(+({(1))(1))({(2)))(}(3)(-1))())
20:33:16 <kerbal> That's odd... that won't post to #esoteric-blah
20:33:52 <kerbal> I moved my bot testing there at shachaf's request
20:34:04 <kerbal> but tried to see if I could put it here
20:34:11 <kerbal> (the bot's not here now)
20:35:05 <kerbal> Ok... it must work for you, then... I need to see if I can prevent the bot from flooding the chat, or at least prevent it from crashing
20:35:15 <kerbal> The API below my code must do that
20:35:46 <shachaf> fungot has rare moments of lucidity.
20:35:46 <fungot> shachaf: i reject the argument that i call with the defaults for all missing arguments.
20:36:08 <shachaf> fungot: i reject the premise
20:36:39 <kerbal> wait... is fungot a bot?
20:36:39 <fungot> kerbal: linux is ( fnord. fnord chi non ama il suo fratello, che ha visto, non fnord fnord dio, che non ha visto. fnord fnord
20:37:12 <fungot> kerbal: http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/ classes/ fall-2004/ csci1901/ pracmidterm2.htm, or name, and another metaxis that allows you to convey the information that then displays come from?
20:37:25 <fungot> kerbal: what is the advantage of writing the repository app with an fnord
20:37:46 <fungot> kerbal: it might be there. you could read the libpcre source, but you still have plans to add some gui to t?
20:44:32 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:47:02 <fizzie> fungot: I'm still pretty proud of you.
20:47:02 <fungot> fizzie: how did you get all possible advantages of java
20:47:08 <kerbal> You wrote an IRC bot THIS GOOD in befunge? I can hardly believe it
20:47:25 <kerbal> Did I read that correctly?
20:47:32 <fizzie> It's easier to write than read, to be fair.
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20:48:47 <fizzie> For the babbling there are other programming languages involved in building the language model the Befunge code reads.
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20:50:21 <fizzie> In fact the more recent styles use a piece of software from my former university, https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
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20:57:01 <wob_jonas> Re https://www.xkcd.com/1850/ , I've been to the air force museum "F15 flygmuseum" in Söderhamn, Sweden, and it is indeed really cool.
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21:12:45 <kerbal> Can I bring my bot on real quick? It interprets Integ, an esolang I created. I'll only have it on here for a couple of minutes
21:13:26 <kerbal> Shachaf, would that be ok?
21:13:52 <shachaf> I mean, this channel isn't opposed to bots, but the other channel is intended for bot testing.
21:14:21 <kerbal> Well, it might be able to be shown off, and for whatever reason it isn't connecting to esoteric-blah now
21:14:37 <kerbal> It's in a partially usable state... might be interesting
21:19:39 <wob_jonas> kerbal: if it's not too noisy, you can. I don't see why it wouldn't connect to esoteric-blah but can connect here though
21:20:17 <wob_jonas> and if it's too noisy, we'll ask you to take it away, or get a channel op to quiet it
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21:20:50 <kerbal> ;integ }(0)(49)}(1)(56)}(2)(47)}(3)(1)~(0)(}(2)(+({(2))({(3)))]({(2))?(-(-({(0))(1))({(2)))(}(3)(1))()?(-(+({(1))(1))({(2)))(}(3)(-1))())
21:21:31 <kerbal> wait... now I know of a setting I need to tweak
21:21:41 <kerbal> ;integ ](104)](101)](108)](108)](111)](44)](32)](119)](111)](114)](108)](100)
21:21:48 <wob_jonas> kerbal: oh, this is that language you were talking about earlier
21:21:58 <wob_jonas> does it have some form of looping now?
21:22:07 <kerbal> I think it is Turing-complete now
21:22:27 <kerbal> It's even got time, random, and de-allocation operators as of the most recent update
21:22:43 <kerbal> It's at github.com/kerbin111/Integ
21:22:49 <kerbal> But I can show you here
21:23:02 <wob_jonas> um... shouldn't there be at least a pointer from esolangs.org ?
21:23:12 <wob_jonas> you should create an article there
21:23:14 <kerbal> I haven't written an article yet
21:23:41 <wob_jonas> I don't care about random, I want to know about looping
21:24:08 <wob_jonas> (looping and conditionals, but there are tons of ways around conditionals)
21:24:12 <kerbal> hold on, let me get a program together
21:24:19 <kerbal> conditional programs are easier
21:24:25 <wob_jonas> (you need some form of looping, or else everything terminates)
21:25:10 <kerbal> ;integ ]( ? (- ([()) (97)) (97) (98) ) a
21:25:11 <Integbot> Unrecognized number of arguments
21:25:23 <kerbal> ;integ ](?(-([())(97))(97)(98)) a
21:25:26 <kerbal> ;integ ](?(-([())(97))(97)(98)) b
21:25:30 <kerbal> ;integ ](?(-([())(97))(97)(98)) c
21:25:43 <kerbal> The ternary conditional operator is ?
21:26:07 <kerbal> Or ?xyz where x is the condition. y is evaluated if x is 0, else z
21:26:26 <kerbal> Basically, this program detects whether or not you inputted a
21:27:04 <wob_jonas> short-circuiting means that only one of the expressions y and z will be evaluated when you evaluate ?xyz
21:27:17 <wob_jonas> it matters because expressions can have side effects
21:28:09 <kerbal> The loop operator is ~xy where y is evaluated every time x is 0
21:28:24 <kerbal> so y gets evaluated multiple times
21:29:17 <wob_jonas> So you have a while loop, with the condition negated. Good.
21:30:13 <kerbal> Give me a second and I will demonstrate a program that uses the while loop
21:30:19 <wob_jonas> is there a less-than compare operator, or do you have to get by without one?
21:32:04 <kerbal> You have to get by without one by looping. I've decided that I probably won't implement one
21:33:01 <kerbal> ;integ ~(-(97)([()))(](89)](111)](117)](32)](115)](97)](105)](100)](32)](39)](97)](39))](89)](111)](117)](32)](100)](105)](100)](110)](39)](116)](32)](115)](97)](121)](32)](39)](97)](39) aab
21:33:02 <Integbot> You said 'a'You said 'a'You didn't say 'a'
21:33:09 <kerbal> That's a looping program
21:33:19 <kerbal> I've thought extensively about putting functions in
21:34:31 <kerbal> I'll keep you all posted... may implement some someday
21:34:38 <wob_jonas> kerbal: you can get by without a less-than operator, but it's not easy. it would be really better to have that, or some other feature that lets it emulate easily
21:34:48 <wob_jonas> and I don't think it's hard to implement in the interpreter
21:35:03 <kerbal> wob_jonas: It's not... it's more of a language philosophy thing
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21:35:30 <kerbal> I want to be a bit minimalistic while still having more features than, say, BF
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21:35:58 <kerbal> but not having a > operator while having a % operator may be TOO minimalistic
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21:36:12 <kerbal> (The % operator does modulus)
21:36:24 <wob_jonas> kerbal: do the memory cells store arbitrary size bigints?
21:36:33 <wob_jonas> you should mention that in the docs I think
21:36:58 <kerbal> Surprised that I don't
21:37:34 <kerbal> About the > operator. If I've got %, my language is not minimalistic but rather inconvenient
21:37:41 <kerbal> which is probably not a great philosophy
21:38:29 <kerbal> I guess it would return 1 or 0 like C
21:39:02 <wob_jonas> Ok, so what rounding does the / operator use? Is it truncating division?
21:39:17 <kerbal> discards remainder, so probably so
21:40:09 <wob_jonas> Then I guess you can use something like /(+1*2x)(*2x) to check for the sign
21:41:23 <wob_jonas> nah, not quite that, but something like that
21:42:09 <kerbal> maybe a construct involving a conditional... not sure
21:42:42 <wob_jonas> and since this is bigints, /(*3-xy)(+1*3-xy) checks if x is less than y
21:43:02 <wob_jonas> but this only works if it's really truncating divison; if it's floor division, you need a different construction
21:43:06 <kerbal> wait... just to be certain... is bigints arbitrary precision?
21:43:21 <wob_jonas> there are like six different rounding modes for integer division
21:43:25 <wob_jonas> (some of them are stupid, but they exist)
21:43:32 <wob_jonas> kerbal: yes, arbitrary precision integers
21:43:52 <wob_jonas> (unless you run out of memory, in which case you get an error)
21:44:07 <kerbal> yeah, division just discards the fractional part
21:44:32 <wob_jonas> so will you add user-definable and callable functions of some sort?
21:45:20 <wob_jonas> (functions, subroutines, subprograms, procedures, macros, whatever, choose your own name)
21:45:46 <kerbal> (I'd probably call them user-defined operators)
21:46:06 <kerbal> Still trying to figure out how they'd work within the syntax of the language
21:46:44 <kerbal> Just to make my explanation clearer:
21:47:08 <kerbal> ;integ ](/(300)(3))](/(301)(3))](/(302)(3))
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21:51:29 <kerbal> shachaf: I killed Integbot
21:51:51 <kerbal> (well, disconnected is a less violent way of putting it)
21:52:16 <wob_jonas> you took it down temporarily for maintenance
21:52:34 <kerbal> I can put it back up if you want
21:53:31 <kerbal> (it should be trying to connect)
21:54:01 <kerbal> wait, connected it to the wrong channel somehow
21:54:13 <kerbal> (or maybe I typed in the wrong command)
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21:57:29 <kerbal> ok. A bit of confusion involving Python distro folders
21:57:44 <kerbal> and identically named files
21:58:14 <kerbal> You need to put parentheses around operands
21:58:14 -!- quintopia has set topic: Registered HyperCamel 2 | vampiric marbles | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
21:58:49 <kerbal> Wait... you're going for
22:00:31 <kerbal> Yep, that's how you test arithmetic
22:00:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Santiago Benoit * New user account
22:00:47 <kerbal> Since you can't directly put integers to the console
22:01:14 <kerbal> (Well, you can put the corresponding character, but that won't be the right value)
22:02:00 <kerbal> wob_jonas: still working on the way in which the bot works with loops
22:02:11 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(8)~(}(0)(-({0)(1){(0))(](73))](65)
22:02:18 <kerbal> because ;integ ~(0)(](73)) should put an infinite loop
22:02:45 <kerbal> I bet that Integbot is not allowed to send that many characters
22:02:54 <kerbal> and so the buffer sends nothing
22:03:09 <kerbal> what is the max character limit in messages here?
22:03:14 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(8)~({(0))(}(0)(-({(0))(1)(](73))](65)
22:03:47 <HackEgo> ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. \ : is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters. \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ character:A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulu
22:04:38 <kerbal> just googled it... 256 characters
22:04:52 <kerbal> will implement changes respecting that
22:05:33 <wob_jonas> kerbal: it's complicated, the max length is between 356 and 490
22:06:08 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:06:14 <kerbal> What about 300 then, just to be safe?
22:06:17 <wob_jonas> kerbal: the server sends commands at most 512 long to the clients, including the terminating crlf, but the header is variable length because it includes the sender's nick!user@hostname and the channel name
22:06:41 <wob_jonas> kerbal: 356 is definitely always safe on freenode
22:07:20 <kerbal> hold on, let me restart the bot
22:07:31 <wob_jonas> it depends on the network because the max nickname length and channel name length differ (I don't know if the username and hostname max lengths differ or not), some networks allow ridiculously long nicks or ridiculously long channel names (probably not both together)
22:08:05 -!- Integbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:14 <wob_jonas> and that's bytes, not characters in any other encoding
22:08:24 -!- Integbot has joined.
22:08:38 <Integbot> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
22:08:40 <wob_jonas> and messages must not contain cr, lf, or nul characters
22:09:07 <kerbal> Integbot already prohibits those, but not well:
22:09:14 <Integbot> Some output characters cannot be displayed.
22:09:22 <Integbot> Some output characters cannot be displayed.
22:09:51 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(72)}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0))
22:10:10 <kerbal> I bet I can make a special exception for cr, lf, and nul, though... those are 13, 10, and 0, right?
22:10:13 <wob_jonas> kerbal: it would be nicer if the bot just replaced those bytes with a space instead of dying
22:11:07 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(72)~(-(64)({(0)))(}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:12:10 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(72)~(/(64)(-(64)({(0))))(}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:13:02 <wob_jonas> no, I am probably messing up the condition
22:13:13 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(72)~(/(64)(-(128)({(0))))(}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:13:34 <kerbal> oh yeah, you've got one
22:13:38 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(72)~(1)(}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:13:51 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(126)~(0)(}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:13:52 <Integbot> Some output characters cannot be displayed.
22:14:08 <kerbal> Note that in ?xyz, x must be 0 for y
22:14:34 -!- Integbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:14:49 -!- Integbot has joined.
22:14:54 <kerbal> Sorry, just implementing some improvements
22:15:01 <kerbal> try your last command again
22:15:03 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(126)~(0)(}(0)(-({(0))(?(-({(0))(64))(0)(1)))]({(0)))
22:15:03 <Integbot> }|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
22:16:02 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(126)~(?(-({(0))(64))(1)(0))(}(0)(-({(0))(1)))]({(0)))
22:16:10 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(126)~(?(-({(0))(64))(1)(0))(}(0)(-({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:16:10 <Integbot> }|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@
22:16:20 <kerbal> For recognized invalid character codes, namely negative ones, 0, 10, and 13, it prints nothing like the offline Integ interpreter. For other invalid character codes,
22:16:26 <wob_jonas> (though some comparison operators would be easier to wrap around my head)
22:16:30 <kerbal> it keeps the behavior it had before
22:17:27 <fizzie> Why is it that whenever a company posts you a "we're updating our terms of service" email, they never include a diff.
22:17:37 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(32)~(-(/({(0))(127))(1))(}(0)(+({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:17:51 <fizzie> It's always just "here's 20 pages of legalese, we changed some of it".
22:17:54 <wob_jonas> kerbal: why do you insist on parenthesis around every operand? or is that not what the syntax does?
22:18:15 <kerbal> You know, I wonder if the time operator will have any weird behavior here... I copied and pasted most of this code from the offline version and then edited it
22:18:24 <kerbal> (probably NOT good programming practice)
22:18:25 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(0)(32)~(/({(0))(127))(}(0)(+({(0))(1))]({(0)))
22:18:25 <Integbot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
22:18:54 <kerbal> wob_jonas: the parentheses ensure that whitespace can be completely ignored
22:19:11 <kerbal> which means you can shape your code any way you want
22:19:16 <shachaf> fizzie: Because they don't want you to read it?
22:19:17 <kerbal> plus, it's easier to parse
22:19:23 <wob_jonas> even if whitespace is ignored, you could require less parenthesis
22:19:24 <shachaf> kerbal: I think you should take your bot back to #esoteric-blah
22:19:47 -!- Integbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:19:58 <wob_jonas> you only really need it in two cases: between numbers to disambiguate a multi-digit integer literal from multiple shorter ones, and for the implicit sequencing (comma) operator
22:20:29 <kerbal> wob_jonas: true... I kind of like the obsfucation, though
22:20:46 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if this counts as obfuscation, but ok
22:21:58 <wob_jonas> if you want easy to parse, just remove the implicit sequencing operator to make it a true prefix operator language
22:22:16 <wob_jonas> you don't even need any new construct in its place as long as operators like + eval their arguments from left to right
22:23:02 <kerbal> I would have to do something about integer constants, though
22:23:26 <kerbal> I want Integ to completely ignore whitespace
22:23:43 <wob_jonas> um... commas or some other symbol between them?
22:25:46 <kerbal> I don't know, I kind of like the ridiculous overuse of ()
22:26:11 <wob_jonas> um... parenthesis around every multi-digit number?
22:26:15 <kerbal> it's worse than LISP (ironically, I didn't even know about LISP syntax until AFTER I wrote the language)
22:27:24 <kerbal> that actually might be harder to parse
22:27:51 <wob_jonas> kerbal: not if you remove the implicit sequencing
22:27:58 <wob_jonas> it will become much easier to parse then
22:28:45 <kerbal> Well, I might play around with that idea... would be a neat change.
22:28:56 <kerbal> The parentheses can be really hard to keep track of
22:29:37 <kerbal> besides the () overuse, what are your thoughts?
22:30:05 <wob_jonas> well, I already said a less-than operator would be convenient, and some sort of user-defined user-called functions would be nice too
22:30:15 <wob_jonas> those would make this a usable small language
22:30:35 <wob_jonas> it still needs a full bignum engine, so it's not quite "small", but not big either
22:31:01 <kerbal> What do you mean by full bigint engine? It can handle large numbers
22:31:55 <wob_jonas> sure, your implementation already uses the bigint calculations built into python 3 if I understand correctly
22:32:22 <kerbal> do you mean like a native arithmetic handler?
22:34:25 <wob_jonas> I mean some code that handles the allocation and the arithmetic operations on the bigintegers
22:35:35 <kerbal> Could you give me an example of what that would be used for? I don't quite understand what you mean
22:36:34 <wob_jonas> um, your language has these + - * / operators that operate on big integers. to implement this language, the interpreter needs to contain code to do those computations on arbitrary bigings
22:36:53 <wob_jonas> your implementation calls the ones built into the python 3 interpreter
22:37:05 <kerbal> Why is that problematic?
22:37:32 <wob_jonas> it isn't, I'm just saying it's not really a minimalistic language in the sense some esolangs are, though it still is not too big
22:38:00 <kerbal> What is it, then? A medium sized language?
22:38:44 <wob_jonas> no, still a small language. a full implementation would be a few kilobytes at least (if optimized)
22:38:54 <wob_jonas> or a tiny language, but not a minimalistic one
22:39:03 <wob_jonas> at least not if you count the computer implementation
22:39:23 <wob_jonas> it might be a minimalistic language mathematically like two-counter counter machines are
22:40:22 <kerbal> (Sorry, I'm new to this)
22:47:23 <kerbal> I guess that this engine would handle +,-,*,/ through bit operations?
22:49:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:09:44 <kerbal> wob_jonas: I'm working on providing documentation for the operators through a ;help command, if you find that relevant
23:11:34 -!- LKoen has joined.
23:28:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Footsteps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52160&oldid=52153 * Ais523 * (+433) r to Keymaker
23:29:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Footsteps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52161&oldid=52160 * Ais523 * (+56) also explain what happens when running out of lines
23:33:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Kangaroo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52162&oldid=52152 * Ais523 * (+692) /* Matrix Kangaroo */ I've actually used this; looks like we invented the language independently
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23:41:10 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
23:41:18 <j-bot> kerbal: |value error: help
23:42:08 <wob_jonas> kerbal: http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Community/IRC has some very old description of jevalbot. I'm not really maintaining it these days (though I can answer questions) so there's no better docs
23:42:34 <kerbal> Thanks. I wanted to try something in #esoteric-blah
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23:53:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you allergic to cats or something?
23:55:50 <oerjan> not very, although i have suspected they make me itch. it's not like i'm into contact with many.
23:56:22 <shachaf> Hmm, why don't you get a kitten?
23:56:31 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
23:57:00 <oerjan> i could tell you but then i would have to kill you.
23:57:01 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Kitty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
23:58:00 <oerjan> (aka i'm not anywhere near organized enough to care for an animal)
23:58:09 <shachaf> oerjan: What if you fostered a kitten for two weeks?
23:58:14 <shachaf> Do you think you can do two weeks?
23:58:30 <wob_jonas> oerjan: you could just say that you live in an apartment where you can't keep pets. that's a pretty socially acceptable excuse.
23:58:48 <oerjan> well i could but it would be a lie.
23:58:49 <shachaf> Why would you give excuses to things?
23:58:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you want to find a temporary caretaker for your cat during a vacation?
23:58:55 <shachaf> I live in an apartment that doesn't allow pets. :-(
23:59:35 <oerjan> wob_jonas: given how much i complained about the neighbors' pet after i moved here, i think that lie would be very implausible hth
00:00:28 <oerjan> (why does everyone want me to get a kitten suddenly)
00:01:05 <oerjan> (also other things being equal, i like puppies more.)
00:01:18 <shachaf> imo get a full-grown old lazy cat
00:01:35 <shachaf> two cats are better than one
00:02:20 <wob_jonas> I should tell you about the troubles I have
00:02:41 <shachaf> I seem to be pretty standard.
00:02:58 <wob_jonas> yeah, but a geek that's a dog person? what kind of programmer is that
00:02:59 <int-e> you don't know when to ask questions
00:03:28 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Did you know Google is officially a dog company?
00:04:21 <shachaf> See https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html
00:04:28 <int-e> @google dog : pooch :: cat : ?
00:04:29 <oerjan> int-e: i'm not sure that's strange, really.
00:04:31 <lambdabot> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4350214/Photos-dogs-pushed-beds-crafty-cats.html
00:04:31 <lambdabot> Title: Photos show dogs pushed out of their beds by crafty cats | Daily Mail Online
00:04:45 <int-e> oerjan: I messed up the wisdom entry quote
00:05:21 <shachaf> I picked up my pooch habit at Google.
00:07:00 <int-e> I'd summon the alice quote but it's short the pertinent bit.
00:07:45 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Alice: "Bob, you should learn Haskell, it's better!" Bob: "la la la, I am not hearing you." Alice: "cola cola cola, I am not talking to you!"
00:08:02 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Alice: "Bob, you should learn Haskell, it's better!" Bob: "la la la, I am not hearing you." Alice: "cola cola cola, I am not talking to you!"
00:08:04 <lambdabot> gwern says: I sometimes think a CS degree could be replaced by reading Alice in Wonderland, GEB, and SICP
00:09:07 * oerjan is confused about which alice quote int-e means
00:11:12 <int-e> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:11:29 <wob_jonas> oh! yes, that quote makes much more sense in context
00:12:04 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 1 wisdom/mad
00:12:05 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:12:30 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
00:12:37 <int-e> I wasn't even sure whether it was a nitia quote or not.
00:12:47 <oerjan> . o O ( which pertinent bit was missing? )
00:12:56 <int-e> oerjan: all of it :P
00:13:12 <HackEgo> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
00:13:43 <int-e> but the initial part was resurrected in that wisdom entry
00:14:40 <int-e> But I'm feeling overly incoherent, good night.
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01:37:44 <kerbal> There is a reason why I keep changing my nickname
01:40:18 <HackEgo> muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
01:40:57 <kerbal> oerjan: Made progress with my bot
01:42:03 <kerbal> I'm working on it over in #esoteric-blah
01:45:41 <HackEgo> zoidberg//Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02).
01:45:48 <HackEgo> loudly//Did you mean: loudly
01:45:52 <HackEgo> matrix//A matrix is just a matrix. People use them to communicate. Taneb invented them.
01:58:05 <HackEgo> wth//WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
01:59:08 <HackEgo> dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
01:59:19 <HackEgo> stume//A stume cowears and goatears you. That is the main reason why the often look so ackward.
01:59:36 <kerbal> What does that even mean?
01:59:44 <Cale> `wisdom gostak
01:59:45 <HackEgo> gostak//The gostak distims the doshes.
02:00:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: HackEgo: not found
02:00:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: HackEgo: not found
02:00:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:01:27 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try 'rm --help' for more information.
02:01:57 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'rm --help' for more information.
02:02:12 <HackEgo> Usage: rm [OPTION]... FILE... \ Remove (unlink) the FILE(s). \ \ -f, --force ignore nonexistent files and arguments, never prompt \ -i prompt before every removal \ -I prompt once before removing more than three files, or \ when removing recursively; less intrusive tha
02:02:45 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ nasmbuild \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wlcom
02:03:30 <kerbal> You can't actually delete directories in HackEgo, right?
02:03:39 <kerbal> That wouldn't be a great design
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02:05:30 <kerbal> wob_jonas: I got Integbot working again
02:07:32 <Cale> http://iplayif.com/?story=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ifarchive.org%2Fif-archive%2Fgames%2Fzcode%2Fgostak.z5
02:10:07 <kerbal> What is a glaud? A guard?
02:15:40 <Cale> Much of the stam of this interofgan halpock is in abvating things on your own.
02:20:26 <Cale> But you might notice that it's hard to pell at the doshery with glauds crenned in the lutt. You'll probably need to discren them.
02:21:32 <\oren\> is it true that in German, "Feminist" is a masculine noun?
02:24:34 <HackEgo> 10990:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> `` echo >> wlcom \ 10989:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> revert \ 10988:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> `` echo > wlcom
02:25:33 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wlcom: No such file or directory
02:26:03 <oerjan> it was probably put in that directory by mistake.
02:27:01 <HackEgo> 10549:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> fetch https://pastebin.com/raw/5pEV4X5h
02:27:16 <HackEgo> 5pEV4X5h: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators
02:27:54 <HackEgo> 10557:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild/nasm-2.13rc9; ./configure > confoutput \ 10556:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild/nasm-2.13rc9; ./configure \ 10555:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild/nasm-2.13rc9; ./configure; make \ 10554:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild; tar -xf nasm.tar.gz \ 10553:2017-03-30 <moonyt
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02:29:47 <HackEgo> 3 \ paste \ spline \ spout \ test \ test2 \ wlist \ yo
02:30:15 <oerjan> `` doag | grep 5pEV4X5h
02:30:19 <HackEgo> 10550:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> as 5pEV4X5h \ 10549:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> fetch https://pastebin.com/raw/5pEV4X5h
02:34:22 <oerjan> `` doag | grep nasmbuild
02:34:27 <HackEgo> 10557:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild/nasm-2.13rc9; ./configure > confoutput \ 10556:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild/nasm-2.13rc9; ./configure \ 10555:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild/nasm-2.13rc9; ./configure; make \ 10554:2017-03-30 <moonythedwar̈f> ` cd nasmbuild; tar -xf nasm.tar.gz \ 10553:2017-03-30 <moonyt
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09:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52163&oldid=52151 * Mayube * (+17) /* T */
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09:37:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52164 * Mayube * (+2152) Created page with "'''Theoretica''' is a theoretical language. No accurate-to-spec implementation of Theoretica can be produced on a physical machine, as an implementation would require not only..."
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09:46:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52165&oldid=52164 * Mayube * (+1094)
09:50:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52166&oldid=52165 * Mayube * (+0) /* Operators */
09:52:36 <myname> so... it's basically a subset of J?
10:27:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52167&oldid=52166 * Mayube * (-32) /* Description */
10:31:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52168&oldid=52167 * Mayube * (-3)
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10:45:02 <mroman> http://codepad.org/iDiCWfSi <- not working as I expected.
10:45:49 <mroman> tl;dr is that the type of node.Next is not guaranteed
10:46:34 <mroman> (and you can't change the type of somethin in a loop)
10:47:30 <mroman> node.Next has type !Any (! means it could be MISSING (== NULL))
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11:36:35 <HackEgo> hax0r//hax0r (see ¯\(°_o)/¯)
11:36:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 151020Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW065 27/13 Q1017 NOSIG
11:37:14 <int-e> do chicken rest when it's hot?
11:38:31 <HackEgo> “Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
11:38:54 <boily> int-ello. I wonder if a chicken can overheat...
11:39:18 <lambdabot> CYUL 151000Z 05009KT 30SM BKN250 12/06 A3010 RMK CI7 SLP194
11:39:27 <boily> back to normalcy ^^
11:39:46 <int-e> boily: it can, its proteins will denaturalize and the result, properly seasoned, will be yummy.
11:40:35 <int-e> "In the adult chicken the variability is between 105°F and 107°F (40.6° and 41.7°C)." may be closer to what you meant though.
11:43:29 <int-e> "Ethanol intake in the chicken and its effect on body temperature and hypothalamic serotonin" ... for science?!
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11:46:11 <boily> let's marinate chicken while they're still alive!
11:48:52 <boily> meanwhile, AAAAAAAAAARGUHEROUGRUGHRUEIREIUGHUREHAUIREGH.
11:49:06 <boily> pentadactyl is once again broken.
11:58:09 <int-e> . o O ( they should make it into a browser )
12:02:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Myth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52169&oldid=51258 * Plugnburn * (+245)
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12:22:54 <mroman> also where do chickens go when it rains.
12:23:03 <mroman> because they hardly can fly away.
12:23:43 <mroman> > Do you think they will be smart enough to go back inside?
12:23:44 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
12:23:50 <mroman> somebody actually asked this
12:24:02 <mroman> "Hey, I have chicken. Are they smart enough to go back inside when it rains"
12:24:16 <HackEgo> Chicken have capital words. boily leaves them.
12:24:50 <mroman> `? rain is a natural bird repellant. Also chickens.
12:24:51 <HackEgo> rain is a natural bird repellant. Also chickens.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:24:54 <mroman> `learn rain is a natural bird repellant. Also chickens.
12:24:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'rain': rain is a natural bird repellant. Also chickens.
12:25:07 <mroman> `learn rain is a natural bird repellent. Also chickens.
12:25:09 <HackEgo> Relearned 'rain': rain is a natural bird repellent. Also chickens.
12:25:27 <mroman> Chickens are part of the species of "false birds" unlike "true birds"
12:25:41 <mroman> just like there are true ducks and false ducks.
12:29:59 <boily> `` grep -FI boily wisdom/* | wc -l
12:30:30 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
12:30:54 <boily> `` grep -FIrs boily wisdom/* | wc -l
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14:41:53 <izabera> is there a hash table that allows efficient merging?
14:44:00 <izabera> and hash table doesn't have to be a hash table, any kind of associative array would be fine
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14:44:28 <izabera> and by efficient i mean sublinear time
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18:13:38 <\oren\> WHYYYYY they are calling their subroutines like:
18:15:03 <wob_jonas> nah, the real answer is that they learned programming from bad old books, same as with all the bad C++ code out there, by people who learned C++ back when it was a bad language, and haven't updated their knowledge since
18:15:38 <shachaf> Learning C++ from the Internet may just be a bad idea.
18:16:02 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no no, that was before the internet got big
18:16:16 <shachaf> @google example of the "mutable" keyword in C++
18:16:17 <lambdabot> http://www.geeksforgeeks.org/c-mutable-keyword/
18:16:17 <lambdabot> Title: C++ mutable keyword - GeeksforGeeks
18:16:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: back when we only had access to some random shareware or pirated software from floppies, and some badly translated old books
18:19:39 <\oren\> they have a user subroutine called &unlink()
18:19:58 <\oren\> which isn't the same as the builtin unlink
18:20:09 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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19:34:37 <wob_jonas> my vacation starts on saturday (in less than two days) and I'm visiting my brother in sweden again
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20:19:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:19:27 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
20:19:31 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
20:19:36 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
20:19:40 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
20:19:40 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
20:22:34 <int-e> @check reverse xs == xs
20:22:36 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: xs :: [()] • Perhaps you meant one of these: ‘x’ (i...
20:22:36 <lambdabot> You have QuickCheck and 3 seconds. Prove something.
20:22:42 <int-e> @check reverse \xs -> xs == xs
20:22:54 <int-e> @check \xs -> reverse xs == xs
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20:23:10 <int-e> @check \xs -> reverse xs == (xs :: [Bool])
20:23:12 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests):
20:24:21 <int-e> (beware that @src is an incomplete work of fiction, though it is based on Haskell's standard library)
20:24:50 <int-e> idris-bot: ( help?
20:24:50 <idris-bot> (input):1:5: error: expected: "#",
20:25:00 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
20:25:15 <kerbal> Ah, it interprets a programming language
20:25:17 <int-e> anyway, enough annoying shachaf :P
20:25:27 <fungot> kerbal: mit scheme, rather than languages where it's required by the scheme standard
20:25:35 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:26:03 <fungot> int-e: it looks better this way: 99 bottles of beer. take one down and pass it around,
20:26:04 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
20:26:28 <kerbal> That doesn't seem entirely accurate
20:26:53 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
20:26:57 <kerbal> fungot is a neat bot, but it has a screw loose
20:26:57 <fungot> kerbal: sweet. where is esobot? i have
20:27:19 <kerbal> If fungot is your voice of reason, you are doomed
20:27:19 <fungot> kerbal: except that one time travel movie with the same name
20:27:24 <int-e> . o O ( I think you're reading the wisdom entry the wrong way )
20:27:34 <int-e> getting warmer now
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20:43:21 <wob_jonas> anyway, I realized why I was stupid today:
20:43:32 <wob_jonas> it would be much more concise to encode things into one big number
20:43:38 <wob_jonas> that's how I should try to write the quine
20:43:51 <kerbal> Could you send me the quine using pastebin again?
20:43:53 <wob_jonas> it would probably still be on the limit of what fits in an irc message, maybe slightly bigger
20:44:26 <kerbal> shachaf: can I put integbot here?
20:47:20 <int-e> `` echo 1684951050dnP | dc
20:53:14 <wob_jonas> kerbal: but make an esolangs.org page too
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20:55:03 <wob_jonas> and I think in the docs you should clarify what the return value of the print (]) and store (}) operators are (technically also of the sbrk (_) expression but I don't care about that one),
20:55:15 <wob_jonas> and figure out how that implicit sequencing works, and document or fix it or something
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20:56:31 <wob_jonas> documenting language rules is better than not documenting them, even if the rules are something stupid
20:56:42 <kerbal> sorry if they are stupid
20:57:06 <wob_jonas> well I don't know what the rule is right now
20:57:11 <wob_jonas> maybe it's just a bug you'll fix soon or something
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22:23:54 <__kerbal__> That might be sufficiently distinct and simultaneously familiar. Maybe I can finally register __kerbal__
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22:28:39 <\oren\> yeah this is some sort of barbarian perl dialect
22:29:21 <\oren\> where subroutines are all called as if & was the sigil for subroutines
22:32:47 <__kerbal__> ok, I am now __kerbal__. It's distinct and nice and Pythonic.
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22:33:56 <wob_jonas> ais has created two more languages?
22:37:54 <\oren\> wob_jonas: some guy at my work speaks a barbarian dialect of perl
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22:45:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Audi: not found
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22:48:14 <quintopia> what is my favorite game beginning with the letter c?
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23:45:39 <wob_jonas> I wonder how often it happens that the spirit of the dead Euler appears as a vision to a mathematician and reveals some hitherto unknown mathematics, but Euler explains the maths in latin so the lesser mathematician doesn't understand anything.
23:46:34 <wob_jonas> I don't know if Euler knows maths terminology in russian, german, french, or hebrew. Maybe he does and then he can find a common language with the listener.
23:46:46 <int-e> yay, one IPv6 mystery solved
23:48:18 <int-e> (lambdabot had sporadic problems connecting for @google, and I finally decided to make a support ticket for that... turns out the host's IPv6 address was configured with the wrong prefix length... in retrospect I could have spotted that problem myself.)
23:49:18 <wob_jonas> yes, spotting probs is always easier in retrospect
23:50:09 <int-e> True. What I mean is that I did have all the necessary information.
23:51:51 <int-e> but ip addr add aaaa:bbbb:cccc:dddd::eeee/64 looked too plausible and I didn't think of counting the bits in the aaaa:bbbb:cccc::1 router address.
23:53:22 <int-e> and the amazing bit is... it mostly worked
23:57:32 <int-e> But it's really nice to get customer support. (I opened the ticket 6pm local time, marked it low priority, got a reply within 5 minutes...)
23:58:36 <int-e> A human reply, I should add.
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00:07:40 <int-e> `quote oerjanic food
00:07:52 <HackEgo> 51) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge \ 111) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. \ 348) * perlmonkey is pursuing the line of reasoning that eating raw foods can improve cognitive function
00:09:09 <wob_jonas> do we have a python3 interpreter here?
00:09:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: python3: not found
00:09:34 <wob_jonas> https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#int
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00:33:20 <int-e> . o O ( pretty portable code generation )
00:33:49 <oerjan> and now i swatted him down -----###
00:34:39 <int-e> `learn PPCG is pretty portable code generation. Unfortunately, it's prone to overflowing the stack.
00:34:42 <HackEgo> Learned 'ppcg': PPCG is pretty portable code generation. Unfortunately, it's prone to overflowing the stack.
00:35:11 <oerjan> that it is. in python especially.
00:35:14 <wob_jonas> (short summary of convn on -blah: kerbal's integ interpreter had strange ideas about how to compute division of bigints, so we had some talk about how floor division and truncating division and the corresponding reminder works, and how write them in python)
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00:36:49 <wob_jonas> (it's a language that supports bigint literals, and bigint literals are the most terse way to encode long data in a program, more efficient than trying to store multiple small integers, so I was trying to use that to write a program)
00:38:53 <int-e> Sounds like it's basically a dc dialect to me. (I have not really looked at Integ yet)
00:40:06 <wob_jonas> it's prefix syntax, not postfix, but almost everything is written like operator(operand) or operator(operand0)(operand1) or operator(operand0)(operand1)(operand2) where operator is one byte of punctuation and the parenthesis are required
00:42:04 <int-e> in dc, integer literals are also the most compact way of storing data that you want to operate on (yes, you have strings, but only very limited string manipulation; basically, print or execute)
00:42:59 <wob_jonas> in dc you could have multiple integer literals with one character separator between and put them to an array
00:43:33 <wob_jonas> in Integ it needs at least 6, probably 7.5 extra characters per integer literal
00:43:49 <wob_jonas> and I think they're always decimal, unlike in dc which allows base 36 or something
00:45:18 <wob_jonas> anyway, it would be possible to use a decimal bigint literal to put data to an integ program, but it's a bit difficult to decode until kerbal fixes division
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01:22:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 152350Z 12007KT CAVOK 14/11 Q1006 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT
01:24:14 <HackEgo> rain//Rain is a natural bird repellent. Also chickens.
01:24:40 <lambdabot> EGLL 160020Z AUTO 27011KT 9999 NCD 13/09 Q1020
01:25:07 <fizzie> It's 24.6 degrees indoors.
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01:39:12 <lambdabot> LOWI 160020Z AUTO 25004KT 9999 SCT090 BKN100 17/16 Q1020
01:40:03 <oerjan> looks like a common european problem.
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02:03:51 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: Do you mind if I make "So many parentheses everywhere" the official motto of Integ 1.1? I think it's a really funny statement
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02:10:52 <int-e> Lots of Irritating Superfluous Parentheses <-- a bit of a precedent
02:11:39 <wob_jonas> int-e: verbose syntax gets especially problemetic when the language doesn't have user-definable functions of any sort
02:11:53 <wob_jonas> if you need functions, you have to emulate them with loops
02:12:27 <int-e> just implement a UTM
02:12:43 <int-e> I'm only half kidding.
02:12:45 <wob_jonas> but unlike brainfuck, this at least has a random-access one-way infinite tape of bigints
02:13:32 <wob_jonas> int-e: the problem is that the online interpreter only evals one irc line at a time, no persistence or multiple buffered lines or anything, and with verbose syntax there's not much you can do in one line
02:14:06 <wob_jonas> int-e: also it has add, subtract, and multiply of integers
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02:26:03 <int-e> `` dc<<<zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz+z+zz+++++Pzz+zzzzzz+++++++Pzz+z+z+zz+++++Pzzzzzzz+++++++++++P
02:26:22 <int-e> `` dc<<<zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz+z+zz+++++Pzz+zzzzzz+++++++Pzz+zz+zz+z+zz+++++Pzzzzzzz+++++++++++P
02:26:48 <int-e> that's not even shorter
02:27:56 <wob_jonas> what the heck does that do? I don't know dc
02:28:03 <wob_jonas> oh, z is the length operator, right?
02:28:05 <int-e> push the current stack depth
02:28:42 <wob_jonas> `dc -ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzpsppsppsppspp
02:28:56 <int-e> z+P is the smallest print-complete fragment, I think, unless you count zP (but that runs into severe practical problems)
02:30:47 <wob_jonas> `dc -e11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111ZP
02:31:13 <wob_jonas> `dc -e11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111ZP1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111ZP
02:31:45 <int-e> `` dc <<<zzzzzzzzzzz+z++++++++++P
02:32:00 <int-e> yes it does, though it's inferior for golfing.
02:38:03 <int-e> `` dc <<<zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz+z+z+Pzzzz+z+z+Pz+zz++Pzz+++P
02:39:16 <int-e> `` dc<<<zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz+zz++Pzzzz+zz+z++P+zzz++++Pzz++zz++++Pzzz+z+zz+++++Pz+zz++Pzz+z+Pzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz+z+++Pz+zz+z++Pzzzz+z+++Pzzz++z++Pzzz++++P+P
02:40:13 <int-e> (funny, I produced that almost exactly a year ago... of course I wrote a small Haskell program to help with the optimization)
02:41:50 <hppavilion[0]> So if I close too many parentheses, the universe might end
03:01:25 <FireFly> oerjan: oh oops, somehow I'd missed that other sed submission, ah well
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11:42:52 <HackEgo> grammar//Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
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17:39:25 <HackEgo> olist 1076: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:09:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triangular]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52170&oldid=52113 * MD XF * (+3443)
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18:14:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubically]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52171 * MD XF * (+3869) Create page
18:14:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubically]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52172&oldid=52171 * MD XF * (-68)
18:14:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubically]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52173&oldid=52172 * MD XF * (+18)
18:16:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MD XF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52174&oldid=52154 * MD XF * (+176)
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20:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HQ9+2D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52175 * CatIsFluffy * (+109) Created page with "What does `+` do? ~~~~"
20:54:02 <zzo38> O, now Node.js has "N-API", which should be a better way to make add-ons, although currently is only experimental. It can be used with C as well rather than only C++, and is meant to be independent of the underlying JavaScript engine.
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21:40:38 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: I have some ideas about function notation in Integ
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21:41:56 <int-e> Integ: "There is currently no text in this page."
21:42:33 <int-e> @google "integ" programming language
21:42:35 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: connect: does not exist (No route to host)
21:42:46 <int-e> hmm, that's not supposed to happen anymore?!
21:42:48 <int-e> @google "integ" programming language
21:42:50 <lambdabot> https://github.com/kerbin111/Integ
21:44:41 <__kerbal__> Here's an example operator definition using the proposed revised syntax: (2a}0+{1{2). This definition would create an operator with two operands that would return the sum of its operands
21:44:57 <__kerbal__> The first number is the number of operands
21:46:34 <__kerbal__> Relative memory address 0 is the output address
21:46:47 <__kerbal__> (Within the parentheses, relative addresses are used)
21:46:47 <wob_jonas> kerbal: I think you fixed the division
21:47:25 <__kerbal__> and 1 and 2 (basically, the numbers between 1 and the number of operands number, if there are operands) are input addresses
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21:48:08 <__kerbal__> When the operator is used, an additional operand will be used to denote the initial absolute address of the relative memory addresses
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21:49:43 <__kerbal__> so, for example, a(0)(2)(2) would apply the a operator, with storage for the operator allocated starting at address 0. Therefore, the output will be returned, but also stored at address 0 (both relative and absolute) and the input will be stored at 1 and 2 when it is provided. In this case, the input is 2 and 2, so memory cells 1 and 2 both get the value 2
21:50:15 <__kerbal__> So, in effect, you have to allocate storage for user-defined operators
21:51:53 <__kerbal__> Note that if you use relative memory addresses, say, 3 and 4 in a, but you only have 2 inputs, the relative memory addresses do not serve return or parametric purposes but must be considered as well
21:52:57 <__kerbal__> The parentheses will be used for function definition; under the new syntax rules, function definition may end up being the only place where parentheses are used
21:53:30 <__kerbal__> I think that separating integer constants with | would be more concise than separating them with parentheses
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21:54:28 <__kerbal__> I've been creating a new syntax parser for the proposed revisions to the syntax
21:54:30 <wob_jonas> kerbal: that depends on how many single-digit constants you expect
21:55:00 <wob_jonas> if there are a lot of single digit constants, then like 42(10)8 is shorter than 4|2|10|8
21:55:16 <wob_jonas> no no. the parenthesis would be optional for single-digit constants
21:55:23 <wob_jonas> because single-digit constants are common
21:55:52 <wob_jonas> just look at how many my code in the other channel has, even next to each other
21:55:58 <wob_jonas> and count the () as zero constants
21:56:15 <__kerbal__> I was just thinking that all adjacent integer constants could be separated with |
21:57:10 <wob_jonas> possibly even more than now if you also have user-defined functions since they'll take number parameters often
21:57:26 <wob_jonas> ok, now how can I make this code more concise
21:58:19 <__kerbal__> Honestly, though, I think that working with }42 where 4 and 2 are separate is novel, but slightly confusing
21:58:20 <wob_jonas> maybe if I twisted it so the data comes last, not first
22:00:17 <wob_jonas> maybe if I somehow used a base less that 90
22:00:32 <wob_jonas> but the decoder for that would be tricky
22:03:16 <wob_jonas> how hard would it be to decode the digits from left?
22:05:48 <HackEgo> A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
22:06:21 <HackEgo> relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force.
22:06:29 <HackEgo> zimbabwe//olsner's desk points zimbabwards. It is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
22:07:19 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: I'm leaving home in a second, but I have changed the settings so that the bot SHOULD not shut off
22:11:59 <zzo38> Now I made JPEG encoder you can specify any quality setting from 1 to 17701.
22:17:52 <wob_jonas> ekrbal: can you try this? http://dpaste.com/231MSGV
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22:24:31 <fizzie> Hm. Am I supposed to be able to stick in {-# OPTIONS_GHC -lfoo #-} in a file if I don't want to put -lfoo on the command line?
22:24:46 <shachaf> I'm not sure you can do that with link-time options.
22:25:04 <fizzie> It says "dynamic" in the flag reference, but it doesn't seem to work either.
22:25:21 <wob_jonas> fizzie:https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.0.2/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#options-ghc-pragma
22:25:52 <shachaf> What information is that link supposed to convey?
22:26:06 <fizzie> I guess it does say "when compiling this source file", as opposed to linking something.
22:26:19 <wob_jonas> that's all the docs I know there is
22:26:39 <fizzie> This is in re XMonad configuration, and xmonad --recompile can't take link-time flags either.
22:26:42 <wob_jonas> you could try asking in #haskell though, there are people there who are pretty knowledgable about ghc and reply quickly
22:27:14 <int-e> fizzie: given that -l is a link time flag I'd not expect that to work... but that doesn't mean it won't
22:27:32 <wob_jonas> ;integ }(3)(200206446310994740193442)](125)](40)](51)](41)](40)}(4)(-({(3))(1))~(?(}(3)(/({(3))(10)))(1)())(}(4)(+(+(11)(%({(3))(10)))(*(90)({(4)))))~(?({(4))(1)(0))(](+(37)(%({(4))(90)))}(4)(/({(4))(90)))
22:28:14 <fizzie> I could just not use xmonad --recompile, it's got that annoying thing where it pops up an xmessage window for the errors as well.
22:29:41 <shachaf> xmonad --recompile mode is great.
22:29:46 <shachaf> Properly esoteric software design.
22:29:57 <wob_jonas> kerbal: try this: http://dpaste.com/1C3K0R1
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22:35:41 <fizzie> They made xmonad --restart no longer pass the state in a command line argument, it uses a file now.
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23:28:03 <zzo38> Reversing all of the bits in a 64-bit number can be done in MMIX with two MOR instructions and one 64-bit constant.
23:32:20 <zzo38> Apparently some people are trying to send HTTP requests to my SMTP server
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00:50:24 <HackEgo> stupidity//Stupidity is created when people are too lazy to think correctly.
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01:04:13 <\oren\> STREET FESTIVAL! HURRAY
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01:29:24 <zzo38> Will they add into Opus codec a mode to use higher bandwidths, in case you want more than 20 kHz?
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02:35:29 <HackEgo> pokemon//A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them.
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02:40:49 <HackEgo> welcome//Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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03:29:46 <zzo38> Ogg container format is in my opinion better than the other kinds, and is simpler kind, although I think there are a few problems with it (including the way codecs are determined), so I made up a variant called GLOGG container format, which fixes what seem to me to be the problems.
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03:57:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Last ReSort]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52176 * CatIsFluffy * (+57) Created page with "==Eventual behavior of 2 is ZISC?== Seems highly chaotic."
03:58:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Last ReSort]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52177&oldid=52176 * CatIsFluffy * (+146)
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04:09:07 <zzo38> I did not vote, and the Pirate Party does not seem to be running in my area (there is Pirate Party in Canada, although not in my area).
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06:28:41 <zzo38> If you want a uniform floating number 0 up to (not including) 1, what is the method? Someone mentioned "we would like to imagine drawing a real number in [0, 1] uniformly at random, and then choosing the nearest floating-point number to it". I wrote the following MMIX code: ANDNH $0,#FFF0; ORH $0,#3FF0; SETH $1,#3FF0; FSUB $0,$0,$1
06:29:49 <zzo38> Can describe as: [1] Put random 52-bit integer into the fraction bits. [2] Put 1023 into the exponent bits. [3] Treat as a floating number and subtract 1.0.
06:30:19 <zzo38> However, would it work better to add a fourth step: [4] Replace the fraction bits with a new 52-bit number.
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06:43:26 <zzo38> Since a random real number presumably has an unlimited number of bits.
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07:05:02 <HackEgo> 1/2:evil//Evil is a special thing, it must be followed by 4 letters of your nickname. It is very evil, and thus is recursive. \ delaware//Delaware is a US state in which everybody speaks German. \ fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. \ molum//molum is the inverse function of ybden. \ tmyk//tmyk the more overfilled your
07:06:44 <zzo38> My nickname has only three letters, not four.
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07:08:46 <zzo38> Yes, if you only count the letter that is difference than each other
07:09:28 <shachaf> Does the first z stand for "Zermelo"?
07:09:43 <zzo38> The letters stand for nothing.
07:09:51 <zzo38> (The numbers also stand for nothing.)
07:10:52 <shachaf> Does the string "38" stand for the number thirty-eight?
07:11:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Normally it does, but in my nickname "zzo38" it does not stand for anything.
07:11:53 <zzo38> I made a implementation of fast inverse square root in MMIX, with 36 oops (or only 20 oops if you do not need the second iteration). However it is assuming that the input is positive and normal (although inverse square root isn't going to work very well otherwise anyways).
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07:24:38 <zzo38> (That is faster than the built-in square-root instruction of MMIX, which is 40 oops; if you want the reciprocal you will then make a division which is another 40 oops.)
07:29:10 <zzo38> Apparently on x86 to compute an approximation of the ordinary square root, it is actually faster to do it by using the instruction for reciprocal square root.
07:35:21 <shachaf> You mean on recent implementations of x86?
07:37:33 <zzo38> The article that mentions that comes from 2009.
07:38:00 <zzo38> (which is also the number that "MMIX" corresponds to with roman numbers, although that is irrelevant here)
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07:45:26 <Taneb> zzo38, how does your fast inverse square root work
07:48:44 <zzo38> Similar to the article in Wikipedia. See http://sprunge.us/AIOc for the actual code
07:51:26 <zzo38> Hopefully the code is clear enough; if something is unclear you can ask.
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07:53:45 <zzo38> Do you understand how this is working now?
07:57:27 <Taneb> I'm familiar with the Fast Inverse Square Root algorithm on Wikipedia
07:57:47 <zzo38> Well, it is similar.
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11:07:49 <lambdabot> EGNM 170950Z 26007KT 190V290 9999 BKN016 18/16 Q1026
11:20:35 <lambdabot> PAMR 170953Z 00000KT 10SM SCT065 BKN080 BKN130 BKN200 13/07 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP089 T01280067
11:24:22 <lambdabot> EGLL 171020Z AUTO 24005KT 180V330 9999 NCD 25/15 Q1027
11:24:45 <fizzie> Think they forecast something like 29 for today.
11:28:03 <hppavilion[0]> I have a policy about german. If I see it, I try to read it.
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12:11:32 <int-e> 8096373705231173873515698288105814457559349996780213465927102169635143836763371455511239714251901656919412172053510347251766358525837584663686083361012968763343440510359069137201087033274943221529093137894442823663461959335745044107344)](125)](40)](41)](40)~(?({(@()))(1)())(}(+(1)(@()))(/({(@()))(10)))~(?(@())(1)())(_(@())](+(48)(%({(@()))(10))))~(](+(37)(%({())(90)))/(1)(}()(/({())(90))))()
12:12:22 <int-e> yay, it fit! (it's an integ quine)
12:14:34 <int-e> of course, neither kerbal nor b_jonas are here...
12:15:23 <int-e> and uh, that was still incomplete anyway.
12:18:30 <int-e> oh well, the whole thing is at http://sprunge.us/eNFW now
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13:04:49 <int-e> }()(12872430441100276982898287331888341273694712212561754032457387972966053390121885560971120465568914029739991532252291383312910885004797316378038489445182646423771046386470134709527072922468161172180445227065244725860831882888079650601385257741999212883854949376079644467447663461959335745044107344)](125)](40)](41)](40)~(/(9)(}(+(1)(@()))(/({(@()))(10))))()~(](+(48)(%({(@()))(10)))?(@())(1)())(_(@()))~(](+(37)(%({())(90)))/(1)(}()(/({())(90))))()
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14:03:12 <lambdabot> LOWI 171250Z 32010KT 280V020 9999 FEW070 SCT110 BKN300 23/04 Q1022 NOSIG
14:03:40 <lambdabot> Look up METAR weather data for given airport.
14:05:20 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick.
14:10:51 <lambdabot> CYUL 171300Z 13003KT 090V180 15SM BKN032 BKN120 OVC240 19/16 A2988 RMK SC6AC1CI1 SLP120 DENSITY ALT 700FT
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14:17:50 <boily> CTHULHU 171300Z 00008KT VRB 1/4SM SKC 04/04 A9999 RMK IA IA CTHULHU FHTAGN SLP133
14:19:11 <LKoen> the current blognomic dynasty has cthulhu for a theme, hth
14:21:07 <Taneb> LKoen, I don't think that's an appropriate place for an hth hth
14:21:28 <LKoen> I'm pretty sure 'hth' should be comma-separated from the rest of the sentence
14:23:44 <int-e> does "blognomic" have a silent "g"?
14:24:03 <LKoen> I'm French. I consider all letters to be silent.
14:39:14 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
14:39:14 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
14:39:18 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting number, "d" or "("
14:39:24 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting number
14:40:16 <lambdabot> @dice <expr>. Throw random dice. <expr> is of the form 3d6+2.
14:41:32 <zzo38> I have a implementation that you can omit both the number of dice and the number of sides; the number of dice defaults to 1 (for compatibility with Dungeons&Dragons) and the number of sides defaults to 6 (for compatibility with GURPS).
14:42:28 <zzo38> (So "d" by itself will be valid)
14:42:29 <__kerbal__> Because everyone needs to roll nearly ten thousand 9999-sided die!
14:43:51 <int-e> @dice 1000000d42+42d1000000
14:43:51 <lambdabot> int-e: 21501687 + 22256928 => 43758615
14:44:10 <__kerbal__> Is there a statistical reason for that sort of behavior?
14:44:35 <zzo38> If the distribution is correct then it shouldn't matter how the program comes to such result
14:44:51 <int-e> zzo38: for >100 (I think) dice it just samples a normal distribution with the right standard deviation and mean
14:45:04 <int-e> which is not perfectly accurate
14:45:43 <int-e> but you'd have to take many samples to notice... you'll probably discover the limited entropy of the random number generator first.
14:45:46 <boily> the Law of Large Numbers mean anything will tend to be a normal distribution (grossly oversimplified oversimplification, but that's normal for ya).
14:46:09 <boily> oops, wrong law. Central Limit Theorem.
14:46:16 <__kerbal__> boily: I thought that there was some sort of rule like that
14:46:47 <boily> in fact, you're pretty much safe with a normal distribution for quite anything, unless your samples are < 30, in which case it' Student.
14:46:51 <int-e> boily: enter the Petersburg paradox.
14:46:58 <__kerbal__> By the way... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocchihedron
14:47:05 * boily wikipédiaes the paradox
14:49:11 <int-e> it's the best thing since the two envelopes problem
14:49:34 <__kerbal__> infinite sums and series can be so confusing
14:51:08 <APic\splat> The whole fucking infinite Universe is infinitely confusing. 😉
14:51:43 <int-e> somehow I've never seen a Zocchihedron before
14:53:58 <int-e> I guess the standard 2d10 method is superior anyway
14:56:57 <fizzie> I've seen those things, but didn't know they were called that.
14:57:26 <fizzie> They're very good if you want a dice that rolls a long long way.
14:58:19 <int-e> apparently there is a more ordinary D100 by a company called Bescon
14:58:32 <boily> just a d30 is already very rolly.
14:58:53 <fizzie> I got a d6 spinning top from a Christmas cracker, and it always lands on 2.
14:59:05 <int-e> and somehow, the image search for "D100" brings up many cameras... :P
14:59:39 <int-e> (in retrospect I find it surprising that the dice outnumber the cameras on the first result page)
15:00:38 <fizzie> (It's actually impressive how well it manages to avoid the other numbers, even though it has no obvious asymmetries.)
15:01:22 <int-e> is it meant to do that?
15:02:56 <fizzie> I don't think so, but it's not like it came with a manual.
15:03:04 <fizzie> Maybe it's social commentary.
15:03:38 <fizzie> OTOH, it's also very cheap and dinky.
15:05:38 <fizzie> Plastic. It's a red plastic hexagon with a diameter of maybe 10-15 mm, with a little axis through the centre.
15:05:50 <int-e> (you asked for social commentary?)
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15:17:50 <zzo38> How might I fix the JPEG encoder to implement chroma subsampling?
15:19:02 <LKoen> <fizzie> I got a d6 spinning top from a Christmas cracker, and it always lands on 2.
15:19:19 <LKoen> and do you know why?
15:19:43 <LKoen> and have you tried spinning it with a beyblade launcher?
15:21:11 <__kerbal__> fizzie: And what does feminist theory have to say about this situation?
15:26:34 <int-e> The die is an androcentric social construct, and is the conceptual driver behind much of climate change.
15:52:34 <lambdabot> http://journals.sagepub.com/home/fty
15:52:34 <lambdabot> Title: Feminist Theory: SAGE Journals
15:55:27 <LKoen> int-e: I hear from an important country leader that climate change is a hoax
15:55:58 <LKoen> but dice are very much real
15:59:47 <int-e> LKoen: the second half is a quote from http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/conceptual-penis-social-contruct-sokal-style-hoax-on-gender-studies/
15:59:57 <LKoen> yes I recognized it
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16:00:39 <int-e> I also think you're missing a "self-" in front of "important"
16:06:05 <int-e> similar idea: When's the next meeting of the leaders of the free world... with Trump?
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16:15:09 <fungot> __kerbal__: for some reason
16:15:20 <fungot> __kerbal__: there's still a lot of the data
16:15:23 <fungot> __kerbal__: use emacs for irc and people were placed in 4th. and fifth was supposed to be the disconnect at hand, first time it returns to wrong place?) documentary coming up on haskell for a state-based language
16:17:39 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:18:12 <fungot> __kerbal__: so would you write quicksort? isn't that pain for not much benefit. now, about your response to my paul graham reference. it is of little consequence, however.
16:19:19 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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16:41:51 <__kerbal__> jjthrash: I built an IRC bot over in #esoteric-blah to interpret Integ.
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17:08:43 <int-e> hmm, new kind of spam to me... sod story of being stranded in the Philippines, wallet lost, wants a "short-term loan" of $1,950 to pay hotel and "get her sorry ass home".
17:09:04 <int-e> kind of cute, hard to imagine it working, but then that's true for all non-targeted spam
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17:12:24 <oerjan> stupid annoying rain dripping on something loud outside
17:12:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 171550Z 22004KT 160V260 9999 -RA FEW040 BKN070 16/10 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 03004KT
17:13:12 <oerjan> (alternatively stupid neighbors for leaving whatever it is out in the open.)
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17:15:47 <int-e> . o O ( here's me hoping that oerjan's not talking about a baby )
17:18:42 <oerjan> sadly it's probably just the architecture, and it happens whenever rain and wind conditions are ri^WHORRIBLY, HORRIBLY WRONG
17:19:16 <oerjan> admittedly a baby would _probably_ be worse.
17:20:06 <oerjan> except with a baby there would be someone responsible for stopping it.
17:24:48 <oerjan> the conditions seem to have improved.
17:26:40 <__kerbal__> Do Norwegians just randomly leave their babies out in the middle of rainstorms? Is that a tradition?
17:28:02 <oerjan> i'm sure it goes back to the vikings.
17:32:18 <oerjan> @google leave baby outside in stroller
17:32:20 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: connect: does not exist (No route to host)
17:32:29 <oerjan> @google leave baby outside in stroller
17:32:31 <lambdabot> https://www.fatherly.com/love-and-money/why-danish-parents-leave-their-children-outside-in-strollers/
17:34:19 <oerjan> if you look at the whole google hit page you'll find some examples of what happens when they try it in america.
17:34:36 <__kerbal__> The article said that it didn't end well
17:34:59 <zzo38> Is there a such things as MMIX JIT to compile a MMIX code into a code for a different computer? You do not need to worry aout self-modifying code unless a SYNCID instruction is executed, so that part is more simplify to do this it seem like.
17:35:47 <oerjan> actually maybe not, that's with "leaves"
17:37:06 <oerjan> this one, anyway http://www.reuters.com/article/us-restaurant-baby-idUSTRE77E62O20110815
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17:41:48 <int-e> let's see if I can catch it doing that again after this reboot
17:42:52 <int-e> oerjan: it's worse, it's IPv6 neighbour discovery
17:43:41 <int-e> which, for some reason, is failing... I thought I had understood this two days ago :-/
17:44:28 <oerjan> it only fails when you aren't observing it hth
17:44:38 <int-e> I still have a workaround , but I hate it.
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17:45:45 <int-e> oerjan: well there is some sort of timeout involved... probably somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes
17:47:25 <int-e> and there was something strange before the reboot, a "FAILED" neighbour entry on the local link which from what I believe to understand about the configuration there, should never be created.
17:48:22 <int-e> oerjan: btw, next time you swat me for lambdabot misbehaving I'll add another letter to the nick :-P
17:48:41 * int-e really didn't appreciate that.
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17:51:40 <int-e> hah, http://www.npccomic.com/comic/2010/02/17/trekkie-exposed/
17:51:58 * oerjan has tab completion, you know
17:58:38 <oerjan> int-e: you'll have to something more elaborate, like creating innocentbot
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17:59:11 <int-e> oerjan: that's not what I meant... did you see lambdabot's quite message?
18:00:27 <int-e> anyway... neighbour discovery... what was that rfc again
18:08:59 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: connect: does not exist (No route to host)
18:09:33 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
18:09:44 <int-e> anyway, I've put the workaround back
18:09:53 <oerjan> `learn_append lambdabot or the neighbours.
18:09:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'lambdabot': lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours.
18:10:04 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
18:10:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lambdabot: not found
18:11:01 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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18:11:19 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours.
18:11:44 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
18:12:09 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
18:12:23 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
18:13:03 <__kerbal__> Why will they blow up the sun, by the way?
18:15:36 <HackEgo> 5181:2014-12-09 <oerjän> learn int-e \xc3\xa4r inte svensk \ 5182:2014-12-09 <oerjän> learn int-e \xc3\xa4r inte svensk. \ 7231:2016-03-14 <boil̈y> learn_append int-e Det kommer att explodera solen. \ 7232:2016-03-14 <boil̈y> le/rn int-e/int-e \xc3\xa4r inte svensk. Hen kommer att spr\xc3\xa4nga solen. \ 7535:2016-04-25 <oerjän> learn_appen
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18:16:48 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.03.14
18:18:20 <int-e> __kerbal__: as I recall it that was the least damaging option available at the time.
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18:21:22 <oerjan> the sun will explode, and all future alien civilizations will find is a lone scrap containing the word "culpritz".
18:21:52 <int-e> actually I just broke it again, still hoping to narrow down what's going wrong...
18:23:01 <oerjan> unless i'm misreading the irc again.
18:23:33 <HackEgo> 1311) <Jafet> an #esoteric-dwelling swede / was mistaken for edible feed / “with you,” said a sicko / “our lanttulaatikko / would be very tasty indeed!”
18:23:37 <oerjan> int-e: i suspect blowing up the sun will also fix ipv6 neighbour discovery hth
18:24:48 <int-e> @google supernova spf
18:24:50 <lambdabot> http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=729047
18:24:50 <lambdabot> Title: Benelli SuperNova SPF - AR15.COM
18:25:38 <shachaf> int-e: How strong a sunscreen do I need to survive the sun's supernova?
18:26:12 <oerjan> you can buy anything on the internet, i see
18:26:28 <oerjan> shachaf: the hard part is screening the neutrinos hth
18:26:45 <shachaf> oerjan: what kind of salads do you like twh
18:26:58 <int-e> *of course* "supernova" has to be a kind of fireworks.
18:27:35 <HackEgo> 1/2:Я//Я is the 8th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet \ mpanion cube//Aperture Science has created a talking cube - we call it the mpanion cube, because it's the opposite of the mute companion cube. \ tur//To tur is not to flas. \ pastry//A pastry is a sugary confectionery that is customarily eaten after writing an essay. \ tile shuffling//Tile shuf
18:27:41 <HackEgo> 2/2:fve games. ly addictie basis of many highling is th
18:28:09 <HackEgo> [U+042F CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER YA]
18:28:11 * oerjan now misses the chicken salad from his previous favorite restaurant
18:28:22 <int-e> . o O ( that's the last letter, fwiw )
18:28:31 <shachaf> oerjan: please restrict your attention to vegetarian salads tdnh
18:28:31 <int-e> and yes I do see the "joke"
18:28:52 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
18:28:55 <shachaf> i,i <int-e> and ya I do see the "joke"
18:29:03 <oerjan> it was the center of my then balanced diet.
18:29:32 <shachaf> int-e: It's payback for your alteration of `? cube
18:29:36 <HackEgo> Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Computer Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave.
18:29:48 <oerjan> shachaf: potato salad then, i guess, goes well with barbecued steaks
18:30:11 <int-e> shachaf: well I do love spherical cubes
18:30:30 <int-e> but we've gone over that already
18:30:56 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't think this is an appropriate topic to make these jokes about. TDNH
18:31:39 <int-e> by analogy it should be the 1st letter of the naissuR alphabet.
18:32:10 <int-e> but as a wisdom entry that seems too weak
18:32:44 <oerjan> `learn R is the first letter of the naissuR alphabet.
18:32:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'r': R is the first letter of the naissuR alphabet.
18:33:23 <oerjan> `# Off by one error//`slwd Я//s,8,9,
18:33:25 <HackEgo> Я//Я is the 9th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet
18:34:46 <HackEgo> 10478:2017-03-21 <oerjän> ` mv bin/{msg,#} \ 10479:2017-03-21 <oerjän> sled bin/#//s/msg/#/g \ 10544:2017-03-30 <oerjän> sled bin/#//3,$cnur "${1#*$sep}"
18:35:05 <HackEgo> 10475:2017-03-21 <oerjän> fetch bin/msg https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/bin/slashlearn \ 10476:2017-03-21 <oerjän> ` chmod +x bin/msg \ 10478:2017-03-21 <oerjän> ` mv bin/{msg,#}
18:35:59 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/bin/%23
18:36:42 <oerjan> int-e: incidentally i made that while backscrolled, so i didn't see you suggest the same thing hth
18:37:15 <shachaf> Did you see the part where int-e suggested that it seems too weak as a wisdom entry?
18:37:47 <int-e> I did wonder but I'm kind of used to being ignored.
18:38:22 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
18:38:25 <int-e> . o O ( "Doctor, I have a huge problem: everybody is ignoring me!" - "Next, please!" )
18:38:55 <shachaf> there was a song about that
18:39:49 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKHzTtr_lNk
18:40:00 <int-e> . o O ( That wisdom entry is too obvious to exist. )
18:40:05 <oerjan> shachaf: your problem above is assuming that i have any cultural inclination to consider a vegetarian salad as something other than a side dish hth
18:40:50 <oerjan> or pay much attention to what's in it.
18:41:07 <shachaf> But I guess I'll need to ask someone else.
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18:43:41 <oerjan> int-e: didn't you link that doctor joke on nichtlustig before
18:43:59 <oerjan> it sounds like their kind of thing
18:44:54 <zzo38> We can use a (somewhat simplified) variant of EIA-608 to make captions in video files. There are other format, but I think, can be use EIA-608 variant
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18:47:48 <zzo38> Do you this captions?
18:47:50 <int-e> oerjan: you are right flavor wise, but I don't think that it has that particular joke
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19:08:49 <quintopia> `le/rn obvious/ A postulate used to prove a wide variety of theorems too arduous to prove by other means. In American Sign Language, it is denoted by a vigorous waving of the hands.
19:08:50 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
19:09:23 <quintopia> `le/rn obvious//A postulate used to prove a wide variety of theorems too arduous to prove by other means. In American Sign Language, it is denoted by a vigorous waving of the hands.
19:09:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'obvious': A postulate used to prove a wide variety of theorems too arduous to prove by other means. In American Sign Language, it is denoted by a vigorous waving of the hands.
19:09:46 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
19:11:02 <oerjan> `slwd obvious//s,^/Obvious, adj.: /
19:11:03 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
19:11:15 <oerjan> `slwd obvious//s/^/Obvious, adj.: /
19:11:17 <HackEgo> obvious//Obvious, adj.: A postulate used to prove a wide variety of theorems too arduous to prove by other means. In American Sign Language, it is denoted by a vigorous waving of the hands.
19:11:19 <shachaf> oerjan: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/24f1/b508d93c7b06f2af713b14078c8b25b90586.pdf hth
19:16:36 <shachaf> kmc: Have you seen that one?
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19:31:09 <zzo38> Now I put a variable quality option into the JPEG encoder. If this option is set, then the alpha channel of the input will vary the quality of the output.
19:31:35 <zzo38> Also RGB mode is put in.
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20:09:22 <int-e> well, tiny progress... curl -6 can reproduce the problem.
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21:48:40 <zzo38> I found this "Non-Von 1" http://www.chrisfenton.com/non-von-1/
21:58:53 <myname> has anybody a recommendation for a non-obvious linux terminal game that is neither as stupid as moon-buggy or the like nor as complex as cataclysm
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22:48:56 <\oren\> This game has a silly plot https://snag.gy/veCdiT.jpg
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23:04:51 <lambdabot> PAMR 172153Z 26012KT 10SM FEW050 SCT090 14/08 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP149 T01390083
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02:44:00 <__kerbal__> Hey, look at esoteric-blah for a second. I found a really cool use of combining characters
02:46:36 <__kerbal__> even stuff supposedly not determined by messages
02:47:22 <zzo38> For me it does not
02:48:13 <__kerbal__> maybe it's because I use the webchat freenode client
02:49:03 <zzo38> Yes, and then it is HTML so it does that (although I think HTML5 includes a command to restrict Unicode state to a block and not persist across blocks?)
02:49:34 <__kerbal__> probably. I just find it neat that I can alter stuff that doesn't seem modifiable.
03:05:20 <HackEgo> U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R \ UTF-8: 52 UTF-16BE: 0052 Decimal: R \ R (r) \ Lowercase: U+0072 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T \ UTF-8: 54 UTF-16BE: 0054 Decimal: T \ T (t) \ Lowercase: U+0074 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+004C LATIN C
03:05:52 <oerjan> `unicode RIGHT-TO-LEFT
03:05:54 <HackEgo> U+200F RIGHT-TO-LEFT MARK \ UTF-8: e2 80 8f UTF-16BE: 200f Decimal: ‏ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: R (Right-to-Left) \ \ U+202B RIGHT-TO-LEFT EMBEDDING \ UTF-8: e2 80 ab UTF-16BE: 202b Decimal: ‫ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: RLE (Right-to-Left Embedding) \ \ U+202E RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE \ UTF-8: e2
03:06:36 <shachaf> Shouldn't that pick a random code point?
03:07:04 <oerjan> `unicode LEFT-TO-RIGHT
03:07:05 <HackEgo> U+200E LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK \ UTF-8: e2 80 8e UTF-16BE: 200e Decimal: ‎ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+202A LEFT-TO-RIGHT EMBEDDING \ UTF-8: e2 80 aa UTF-16BE: 202a Decimal: ‪ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: LRE (Left-to-Right Embedding) \ \ U+202D LEFT-TO-RIGHT OVERRIDE \ UTF-8: e2
03:07:43 <oerjan> RTL messes up the tunes logs for me. but no longer irssi like it used to.
03:08:58 <oerjan> shachaf: i have barely any idea how `unicode chooses what to respond hth
03:09:22 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/unicode
03:10:40 <shachaf> `` echo $'import unicodedata\nprint dir(unicodedata)' | python
03:10:41 <HackEgo> ['UCD', '__doc__', '__name__', '__package__', 'bidirectional', 'category', 'combining', 'decimal', 'decomposition', 'digit', 'east_asian_width', 'lookup', 'mirrored', 'name', 'normalize', 'numeric', 'ucd_3_2_0', 'ucnhash_CAPI', 'unidata_version']
03:13:29 <oerjan> it seems to me that ghc major releases keep getting later
03:13:30 <shachaf> Oh, it's multicode that does all the work.
03:14:12 <oerjan> multicode is the one which has an up-to-date database, the python one is ancient
03:14:28 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ airports.dat \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ candide \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ headers \ headers.gch \ hello \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ mtg \ nothp \ recipe \ scapegoats \ scowrevs \ sedtest \ UnicodeData.txt \ units.dat \ usercm
03:15:11 <shachaf> I have a program that turns UnicodeData.txt into the format at http://slbkbs.org/unic.txt
03:15:25 <shachaf> And a keybinding to open a terminal with that file inside less in a large font.
03:15:30 <shachaf> "shachaf's unicode secretz"
03:15:43 <oerjan> whatever that is, doesn't open in browser.
03:15:54 <shachaf> Because your browser is scow.
03:16:01 <shachaf> Or maybe my content-type is scow.
03:16:30 <shachaf> No, my content-type is OK.
03:16:57 <zzo38> You may try adding "view-source:" at the beginning of the URL and see if that opens it. You can also try using curl and less
03:17:12 <shachaf> zzo38: Does that work in Microsoft Edge, which I think is oerjan's web browser?
03:17:24 <shachaf> I don't have the program here, unfortunately, and that file is based on an old version of Unicode.
03:17:25 <zzo38> I don't know, but you can try and see if it work.
03:17:30 <HackEgo> `fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
03:17:42 <shachaf> `fetch share/unic.txt http://slbkbs.org/unic.txt
03:17:45 <oerjan> i didn't like edge the two times i tried opening it
03:17:47 <HackEgo> 2017-06-18 02:17:37 URL:http://slbkbs.org/unic.txt [1084140/1084140] -> "share/unic.txt" [1]
03:18:05 <shachaf> `` shuf -n 5 share/unic.txt
03:18:06 <HackEgo> 1DE0 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER N [ᷠ] \ 0AA0 GUJARATI LETTER TTHA [ઠ] \ 0468 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER IOTIFIED LITTLE YUS [Ѩ] \ 133EC EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH Z003B [𓏬] \ 16B9 RUNIC LETTER WUNJO WYNN W [ᚹ]
03:18:18 <shachaf> `` shuf -n 5 share/unic.txt
03:18:19 <HackEgo> D7DE HANGUL JONGSEONG MIEUM-NIEUN [ퟞ] \ 1DFC COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE BELOW [᷼] \ D7EF HANGUL JONGSEONG SIOS-CIEUC [ퟯ] \ A32E YI SYLLABLE SSIEX [ꌮ] \ 10E6E RUMI NUMBER SIXTY [𐹮]
03:18:33 <shachaf> Unfortunately deleting a code point is pretty tricky.
03:18:43 <shachaf> `` shuf -n 10 share/unic.txt
03:18:44 <HackEgo> A808 SYLOTI NAGRI LETTER KHO [ꠈ] \ 2AF1 DOWN TACK WITH CIRCLE BELOW [⫱] \ 17CF KHMER SIGN AHSDA [៏] \ 0D8B SINHALA LETTER UYANNA [උ] \ E0049 TAG LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I [] \ 036A COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER H [ͪ] \ A452 YI SYLLABLE NYUOX [ꑒ] \ 1A65 TAI THAM VOWEL SIGN I [ᩥ] \ 132F7
03:19:52 <shachaf> `` tail -n+2 share/unic.txt | sort-by-lengths | tac | head
03:19:53 <HackEgo> FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM [ﯹ] \ FBFB ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA INITIAL FORM [ﯻ] \ FBFA ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA FINAL FORM [ﯺ] \ 1F502 CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OP
03:20:55 <oerjan> ARABIC SPAM WITH HAMZA ABOVE
03:21:37 <shachaf> `2 tail -n+2 share/unic.txt | sort-by-lengths | tac | head
03:21:38 <HackEgo> 2/3:S OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY [🔂] \ 1D1CE MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-3 [𝇎] \ 1D1CD MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-2 [𝇍] \ 1D1CC MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-1 [𝇌] \ 0753
03:21:41 <HackEgo> 3/3: ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH THREE DOTS POINTING UPWARDS BELOW AND TWO DOTS ABOVE [ݓ] \ 2965 DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB LEFT BESIDE DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB RIGHT [⥥] \ 2969 RIGHTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN ABOVE LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN [⥩]
03:22:19 <shachaf> See, now I need `4, the obvious generalization of `2
03:22:25 <shachaf> To run the same command without the head.
03:22:41 <shachaf> oerjan probably is of the opinion that I don't need it.
03:22:45 <shachaf> `2 tail -n+2 share/unic.txt | sort-by-lengths | tac
03:22:46 <HackEgo> 2/3330:ARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY [🔂] \ 1D1CE MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-3 [𝇎] \ 1D1CD MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-2 [𝇍] \ 1D1CC MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-1 [𝇌] \
03:22:48 <HackEgo> 4/3330:N WITH BARB DOWN [⥧] \ 1FAF GREEK CAPITAL LETTER OMEGA WITH DASIA AND PERISPOMENI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI [ᾯ] \ 1FAE GREEK CAPITAL LETTER OMEGA WITH PSILI AND PERISPOMENI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI [ᾮ] \ 1F8F GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH DASIA AND PERISPOMENI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI [ᾏ] \ 1F8E GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH
04:21:27 <HackEgo> 1000/3330: FAA3 CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FAA3 [画] \ FAA2 CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FAA2 [甆] \ FAA1 CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FAA1 [瑱] \ FAA0 CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FAA0 [猪] \ FA9F CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FA9F [犯] \ FA9E CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FA9E [爵] \ FA9D CJK COMPATIBILITY ID
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05:20:56 <zzo38> I am trying to invent a New Picture Compression
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06:15:38 <zzo38> I have (not recently) independently invented bijective base 2, although it seems that many people have done.
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07:16:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HyperNeutrino * New user account
07:20:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52178&oldid=52149 * HyperNeutrino * (+201) Added HyperNeutrino
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07:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix notation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52179 * HyperNeutrino * (+803) Created Anyfix Notation page
07:45:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52180 * HyperNeutrino * (+1640) Created Anyfix page
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08:01:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52181&oldid=52180 * HyperNeutrino * (+3) Formatted links properly
08:01:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52182&oldid=52181 * HyperNeutrino * (+2)
08:04:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52183&oldid=52182 * HyperNeutrino * (-113)
08:04:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52184&oldid=52183 * HyperNeutrino * (+2)
08:04:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52185&oldid=52184 * HyperNeutrino * (+0)
08:05:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52186&oldid=52185 * HyperNeutrino * (-22)
08:05:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52187&oldid=52186 * HyperNeutrino * (-16)
08:05:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52188&oldid=52187 * HyperNeutrino * (+25)
08:06:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52189&oldid=52188 * HyperNeutrino * (-40)
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12:46:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zseri * New user account
12:56:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52190&oldid=52178 * Zseri * (+182) Added zseri.
12:57:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52191&oldid=52042 * Zseri * (+0) /* C */ fixed little errors (typos)
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13:42:29 <HackEgo> haskell'//Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
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15:03:43 <lambdabot> CYUL 181300Z 15009KT 30SM FEW055 FEW080 FEW240 26/21 A2970 RMK SC1ACC1CI1 SC TR ACC TR CI TR ACC NW SLP059 DENSITY ALT 1700FT
15:04:13 <boily> it's gonna rain it's gonna rain it's gonna rain ♪
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16:50:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52192&oldid=52189 * Quintopia * (-42) use wikilinks
16:51:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52193&oldid=52192 * Quintopia * (+2) use wikilinks
16:51:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52194&oldid=52193 * Quintopia * (+0) capitalization
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17:11:09 <quintopia> @tell boily helloily. i'm back. how's this coming saturday for ya?
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19:25:20 <__kerbal__> going to work a bit on implementing user-defined functions in Integ
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20:26:16 <lambdabot> ESSB 181920Z 26013KT CAVOK 23/13 Q1011
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20:30:44 <\oren\> https://snag.gy/5J6tQ8.jpg GAMZ OVZYA SSOYAZ 602500
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21:26:28 <__kerbal__> int-e: I am already testing and building the new framework for user-defined operators.
21:28:41 <__kerbal__> They will have the form :.<number of operators besides a mandatory allocation operator><operator designator character><code>.: and will be called as <operator designator character>(<memory address offset>)(<operand 1, if necessary>)(<operand 2, if necessary>)...
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21:30:25 <__kerbal__> the definition :.1a}()({(1)).: would create an operator that would copy its input to its output. It would be called with a(<starting memory address>)(<integer to be copied>)
21:31:20 <__kerbal__> an example call would be a(2)(7) which would return 7 and begin allocating space for its relative memory addresses starting at absolute address 2
21:31:52 <__kerbal__> note that, in the example mentioned, relative address 0 would be the output address, and relative address 1 would be the only input address
21:32:38 <__kerbal__> note that if the start absolute address was 2, relative address 0 will actually be written to address 2, and relative address 1 will actually be written to address 3
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21:37:58 <__kerbal__> operators can be defined anywhere within a program no matter where they are used, as they are parsed and removed before the code is evaluated. However, this means that operators can only be defined once
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02:14:32 <lambdabot> KOAK 190053Z 30013KT 10SM FEW030 FEW060 29/15 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP065 T02940150
02:14:44 <shachaf> \toodamnhigh{the temperature}
02:14:50 <lambdabot> KSJC 190053Z 30014KT 10SM FEW090 FEW120 34/15 A2970 RMK AO2 SLP055 TCU DSNT NE-E T03440150 $
02:14:55 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
02:14:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 190100Z 21013G19KT 15SM FEW040CB BKN100 BKN170 BKN240 28/20 A2956 RMK CB1AC6AC1CI1 CB TR CI TR SLP010 DENSITY ALT 2100FT \ ENVA 190050Z 24007KT 9999 FEW027 BKN057 11/09 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT
02:14:57 <lambdabot> 26010KT \ ESSB 190050Z AUTO 25006KT 9999 NCD 18/14 Q1012 \ KOAK 190053Z 30013KT 10SM FEW030 FEW060 29/15 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP065 T02940150 \ PAMR 190053Z AUTO VRB05KT 10SM BKN070 17/07 A2999 RMK AO2
02:23:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that a political party?
02:24:49 * oerjan checks the bitcoin bubble
02:24:58 <shachaf> cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_Is_Too_Damn_High_Party
02:25:06 <oerjan> not quite as bubbly as last time.
02:26:00 <oerjan> there might well be a tiny party with a silly name, what do i know.
02:27:29 <oerjan> a previous election had some comedians running. although they didn't win like in iceland.
02:28:42 <oerjan> hm this year is a new election.
02:32:42 <__kerbal__> Someone should create a Birthday Party.
02:32:45 <oerjan> the norwegian cannabis party and the pirate party are the silliest names i can see
02:33:01 <oerjan> and the extinct natural law party
02:34:19 <oerjan> (which proposed basing everything on transcendental mediation)
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02:57:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Copy * New user account
03:01:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52195&oldid=52190 * Copy * (+118)
03:01:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52196&oldid=51890 * Copy * (-34) Update link from old website
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03:12:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52197&oldid=18169 * MD XF * (+391)
03:13:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52198&oldid=52197 * MD XF * (-39)
03:13:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Madk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52199&oldid=52198 * MD XF * (-1)
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03:21:10 <lambdabot> CYVR 190200Z 09005KT 15SM FEW006 OVC016 16/14 A3017 RMK CF1SC7 SLP218
03:21:40 <zzo38> (There is another airport near where I am but which does not have METAR)
03:21:52 <zzo38> (I don't know why they don't have METAR.)
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04:03:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52200&oldid=41792 * CatIsFluffy * (+196) :P
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04:24:45 <zzo38> Are you going to make Deadfish implementation with more kinds of assembly languages (other than just Famicom and MMIX)?
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04:49:56 <Sgeo_> I have been getting a 24 Hour Server Suspension Warning every 24 hours or so for the past 3 days.
04:58:46 <zzo38> What is that warning for?
04:58:58 <oerjan> have you paid you Maintenance Fee (TM)?
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07:00:27 <Sgeo_> And no desire to, I haven't been using it at all iirc
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07:13:19 <oerjan> Sgeo_: well int-e closed his account with them after they announced that (badly).
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07:58:23 <zzo38> I made a list of some new kind of magic item that could be used in a GURPS game or other kind of game; these are the (mostly) rare kind so is not common to just find it in any shop, to make one, etc, but sometimes it can be.
07:58:55 <zzo38> It is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/gurps/newitem
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08:24:15 <shachaf> oerjan: did you read emil books
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09:06:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: it still looks like your attempts don't fit into an irc line, but it's shorter than what I tried
09:06:55 <wob_jonas> I'll have to check if it works and how it works
09:10:36 <wob_jonas> <zzo38> Is there a such things as MMIX JIT to compile a MMIX code into a code for a different computer? => um, maybe qemu has one? it has jits from multiple pairs of archs I think
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09:32:45 <int-e> wob_jonas: the last one actually did make it to the bot in one piece. 451 characters is really pushing the limits though. see http://sprunge.us/cBXQ for the whole thing
09:33:24 <int-e> (and I have a short hostmask, which probably helps)
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09:34:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: ah, so I should try from my b_jonas account or something
09:42:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52201 * B jonas * (+228) Created page with "'''Integ''' is a programming language by __kerbal__. Some documentation and an implementation at https://github.com/kerbin111/Integ [[Category:Languages]] Category:Impleme..."
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09:51:28 <zzo38> For MMIX JIT, my idea involving only user programs anyways (not the operating system), and to take advantage of some of the features such as needing SYNCID for self-modifying code. Still is not quite the kind of code to be JIT, although is closer than some machine instruction sets.
09:54:38 <wob_jonas> sorry, it seems qemu doesn't yet have mmix emulation http://git.qemu.org/?p=qemu.git;a=tree;f=target;h=fc7882c64d1d9ded74202aeeff083fd3c5e52c46;hb=master
09:56:04 <wob_jonas> int-e: it looks like the new tricks you use is to decode digits through separate memory cells, and use @() to do this efficiently
09:56:26 <wob_jonas> (efficiently in source code space)
09:58:28 <wob_jonas> and it indeed looks shorter than the latest I have, which is http://dpaste.com/1C3K0R1.txt
10:01:24 <wob_jonas> also one more trick is to store the data to cell 0, which I really should have done
10:13:16 <int-e> I was really quite happy to have a good use for @ and _
10:20:17 <zzo38> Another use of LDHT instruction in MMIX is to be able to do multiple kind of endianness conversion (with MOR) by using only one constant, so you can read 16-bit small-endian, 32-bit small-endian, and 32-bit PDP-endian. When converting endianness of signed numbers, you can also use one constant (already mentioned in the MMIX documentation, I think), and follow by SR to tell how much.
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12:01:16 <Taneb> :D I have a job offer!
12:02:48 <lambdabot> quintopia said 18h 51m 39s ago: helloily. i'm back. how's this coming saturday for ya?
12:04:21 <boily> @tell quintopia qunthellopia! can you make it Sunday? Saturday is the Fête Nationale and I'll be out.
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12:06:41 <HackEgo> companion cube//There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
12:07:29 <Taneb> So I guess I'm moving to Cambridge
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12:09:14 <boily> what's your job offer?
12:09:42 <Taneb> 9 month contract working on https://www.myrtlesoftware.com/2017/04/20/deep-learning/
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12:11:56 <boily> in fact, quite nice.
12:15:01 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm really excited by it!
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12:58:19 <olsner> shachaf: emil i lönneberga?
12:58:38 <olsner> never read the books, just saw the tv series (or perhaps the movie)
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14:34:00 <wob_jonas> Taneb: nice! do you also have your university degree complete?
14:37:27 <wob_jonas> automating car driving? meh, I'll believe it only if people develop those sorts of things specifically targeting driving in bad weather and big cities in the uglier parts of Europe. it's easy to get better systems for driving on american highways.
14:39:24 <wob_jonas> I've worked enough with computer vision to know that every sort of automation is at least ten times more difficult if you want it to work in all times of the day and night in all lighting conditions and weather, not just nice bright light with a thin cloud in front of the sun to remove shadows.
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15:11:15 <LKoen> Taneb: congratulations
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16:44:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FFM/FFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52206&oldid=52205 * Enoua5 * (+2) /* Turing Completeness */
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16:47:55 <enoua5> BOOM! Made an entire language within a single day! Opinions? https://esolangs.org/wiki/FFM/FFB
16:51:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FFM/FFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52207&oldid=52206 * Enoua5 * (+155)
16:55:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52208&oldid=52202 * Enoua5 * (+14) /* F */
16:56:37 <izabera> https://twitter.com/anne_theriault/status/876235898500861954
16:59:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52209&oldid=52159 * Enoua5 * (+62) /* Languages created */
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17:24:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52210&oldid=45780 * Get52 * (-36) User input was made deprecated.
17:26:31 <lambdabot> LOWI 191620Z 05011KT 020V080 9999 FEW080 30/15 Q1018 NOSIG
17:26:44 <int-e> hmm, maybe I won't walk home today
17:27:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52211&oldid=52210 * Get52 * (+48)
17:27:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52212&oldid=52211 * Get52 * (+2)
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17:29:21 <\oren\> These "jeans" do not feel like denim at all
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17:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FFM/FFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52213&oldid=52207 * Enoua5 * (+7) fixed small bug in revcat
17:43:20 <shachaf> olsner: Ah. I think I read at least one of the books but it was a long time ago.
17:43:27 <shachaf> What about Emil and the Detectives?
17:44:09 <olsner> never heard of it, seems to be german
17:44:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52214&oldid=52200 * Zseri * (+121)
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18:09:35 <zzo38> Is there some kind of fast way to make Morton numbers using MMIX instructions?
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18:10:58 <shachaf> Do you mean interleaving the bits of integers?
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18:17:00 <int-e> I would expect the usual 0x55..., 0x33..., 0x0F... bisection
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18:17:27 <int-e> (though not, actually, in that order)
18:21:01 <HackEgo> smlist 454: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
18:22:38 <HackEgo> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
18:24:29 <int-e> and of course the masks aren't quite the same: x = x & 0xFFFFUL | ((x & 0xFFFF0000UL) << 16); x = x & 0xFF000000FFUL | ((x & 0xFF000000FF00UL) << 8); x = x & 0xF000F000F000FUL | ((x & 0xF000F000F000F0UL) << 4); x = x & 0x303030303030303UL | ((x & 0xC0C0C0C0C0C0C0C0UL) << 2); x = x & 0x1111111111111111UL | ((x & 0x2222222222222222UL) << 1);
18:25:20 <int-e> (untested, and 0xC0C0C0C0C0C0C0C0UL should be 0xC0C0C0C0C0C0C0CUL, so that's at least one bug)
18:27:17 <int-e> well Germany has introduced the dual system. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duales_System_Deutschland
18:28:02 <shachaf> Did you read any Emil book?
18:28:05 <olsner> TODO: implement https://twitter.com/MarieLaureGB/status/874343740860772353 in self-modifying Piet
18:28:25 <int-e> the detective? children's books? I suppose I have, at some point.
18:29:07 <int-e> actually, no... children is the plural already... stupid inconsistent grammar.
18:29:20 <int-e> shachaf: but I don't see any connection.
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18:39:51 <int-e> and (looking at volume 4a), you can apparently play some tricks with M(X)OR.
18:42:04 <zzo38> Yes I also thought about using MOR and possibly MXOR
18:42:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FFM/FFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52215&oldid=52213 * Enoua5 * (+34)
18:42:53 <zzo38> Which might reduce how many of these masking you should need.
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18:43:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think you can interleave bits quickly by using MOR a few times, on different sides
18:45:55 <zzo38> I know that you can reverse bits in a 64-bit number by using the constant #0102040810204080 once in the Y operand and once in the Z operand of a MOR instruction
18:46:02 <wob_jonas> anyway, you can move the bits around within any one byte using an MOR, in the same arrangement separately on 8 bytes
18:46:33 <wob_jonas> so you can use that to move either the lower or upper four bits of a byte to either the even or odd bits, or backwards
18:47:05 <wob_jonas> then you can use MOR the other way to rearrange bytes, OR to combine words, and even shifts can help
18:47:43 <wob_jonas> depending on what size of inputs and outputs you want, I think you can interleave bits quickly using that
18:48:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how big are your input numbers, and do you want this on a single pair of numbers or multiple together?
18:48:48 <zzo38> I should assume two 32-bit numbers.
18:49:40 <wob_jonas> if you only have one pair, then I think this is one of the many situations where x86's various random instructions on big vectors help you more than MMIX's MOR and stuff
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18:52:28 <int-e> 3 MORs, two ANDs, one OR, will give you the "spread" (interleaving with 0 bits).
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18:59:14 <wob_jonas> let me try to figure this out exactly
19:03:09 <int-e> here is a sketch using 4x4 matrices: http://sprunge.us/CMIF
19:03:41 <int-e> (I'm not claiming that it's optimal, but it does show that 3 MORs, 2 ANDs and one OR suffice)
19:04:57 <int-e> and I may actually be able to do the whole interleaving in the same number of operations? HMM.
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19:08:41 <shachaf> are you an evil financier now
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19:12:58 <shachaf> not yet evil or not yet financier
19:13:02 <shachaf> what sorts of things are you training to do
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19:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> other than 'writing code for kdb' i don't exactly know
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19:34:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think something like this should work, but it's untested http://dpaste.com/0ZP3BS8
19:35:07 <int-e> zzo38: http://sprunge.us/FXMP ... it appears that 4 MORs, 2 ANDs, 2 ORs are enough to do the interleave operation (plus a shift and another or to get both parts into the same register)
19:35:24 <wob_jonas> this uses a combination of 8 MOR plus 3 OR instructions, plus a few instructions that create constants and so are needed only once
19:37:13 <wob_jonas> i'm not saying this is optimal, it may be possible to do one or two shorter
19:39:22 <wob_jonas> it's much easier on future x86 cpus, which will have bit-collect (intercal select) and bit-uncollect instructions, so you'll be able to do this in just two bit-uncollect then an OR instruction
19:39:40 <int-e> (or three or four)
19:42:23 <int-e> there's an open question whether MXOR could make this even more efficient, but I don't really want to think about that. linear algebra is hard.
19:48:54 <int-e> (why did I say 2 ORs when I meant 1 OR)
19:51:34 <wob_jonas> (it's not really intercal select, mind you, just half of it)
19:54:02 <wob_jonas> I have an idea for an esoteric programming language. I'll have to figure out what exactly the rules I'm thinking of imply, and if there's a right set of features to keep to get something that is not completely unusable but also not trivially easy.
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20:58:23 <fizzie> "Future", "will have"? Aren't those what PDEP and PEXT already are?
20:58:54 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, it's PDEP and PEXT, but most of the cpus you use right now don't yet support those
21:02:47 <fizzie> Aren't they just part of BMI2, in Haswell and later?
21:03:31 <int-e> . o O ( Flags: ... bmi2 ... )
21:03:39 <wob_jonas> fizzie: no, I think they're part of BMI3
21:03:55 <int-e> it seems that you're wrong
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21:04:36 <shachaf> Netcraft confirms it: Intel is dying
21:04:56 <int-e> ARM SoCs are winning, I suppose
21:06:00 <fizzie> https://software.intel.com/sites/landingpage/IntrinsicsGuide/ says cpuid flags BMI2 for the pdep intrinsic.
21:06:36 <fizzie> And lists Haswell/Broadwell/Skylake perf numbers for it.
21:06:56 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't think they're dying. they're using dirty tricks successfully to remain the market leader. but AMD is putting up a really good fight: they've finally started making CPUs in all categories from middle-strength desktop to high-end server that are better than Intel's again, and they bought a graphics card manufacturer
21:07:10 <wob_jonas> fizzie: wtf, what does BMI3 do then?
21:08:09 <int-e> what is that bmi3 you're talking about
21:09:42 <wob_jonas> uh... I'm not at home, let me re-download the manuals to here
21:09:45 <int-e> (google finds ABM, BMI1, BMI2, TBM, but I have not seen any other bit manipulation stuff.
21:13:43 <wob_jonas> the doc says PDEP is in the BMI2 extension set, yes
21:13:56 <wob_jonas> let me look up what cpus have that
21:14:54 <fizzie> Flaky hotel WiFi here as well, so won't be around. I just remember being excited about having an opcode matching an intercal instruction so well. Doesn't look like people have been that interested about it in general.
21:16:00 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it is interesting, but sort of drowned out by all the other more important good and bad things about AVX512
21:18:35 <wob_jonas> fizzie: ok, you're right, it's probably not just in future cpus, but it's still not in cheaper cpus you buy today
21:20:36 <FireFly> PDEP/PEXT are interesting, makes me want to write a compiler of some kind for an APL-like
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21:29:25 <mroman> 9827568326>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
21:30:46 <int-e> doesn't look like much
21:32:36 <wob_jonas> but even without PDEP, you can do the spreading of an integer to every other bits with like five AVX2 instructions I think
21:33:49 <wob_jonas> hmm no, maybe it's more because AVX2 doesn't have a full shuffle
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21:40:05 <wob_jonas> ok, make that six instructions then
21:43:11 <wob_jonas> anyway, you could probably do the full interleave in like ten instructions
21:44:17 <wob_jonas> I dreamed up an esoteric language, and I'm not sure if it's literally turing-complete
21:45:19 <LKoen> turingally leteracy-complete
21:45:42 <mroman> the name is turing complete?
21:46:13 <wob_jonas> it is quite powerful computationally, so in practice you could do any computation with it, but I don't know whether it can use arbitrarily large amount of memory completely (as opposed to just access a memory that grows at least tetration quickly in the program size)
21:56:00 <mroman> now I have to write a password cracker that understands befunge
21:56:09 <mroman> to crack my own password of course
21:56:25 <mroman> the new captchas are befunge code
21:56:55 <wob_jonas> oh. but aren't there only a few of them?
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21:57:18 <mroman> not if you have like 10 passwords candidates in your head you might have used for this account.
21:57:25 <mroman> then it's really annoying.
21:57:48 <mroman> and all of these password candidates either have a 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 as a last digit
21:57:52 <wob_jonas> no, I mean only like 10 different befunge captchas
21:57:57 <mroman> then you're easily at 100 passwords you gotta try
21:58:10 <wob_jonas> that you have to solve once, and then you always get only those ten for each attempt
21:58:35 <mroman> this is like hashcash captchas
21:58:42 <mroman> you colud have hashcash captchas
21:58:49 <mroman> that take 1min to solve on a modern computer :D
21:59:54 <wob_jonas> is that useful? aren't they the kind of hashes where you can get the page a million times, solve the million hashes in parallel on a GPU in two minutes, then send a million password attempts?
21:59:59 <mroman> but having to interpret code is even better
22:00:03 <mroman> some programs might not terminate
22:00:06 <mroman> that oughta show them cracker
22:00:33 <mroman> if you can solve a million hashes on a GPU in two minutes
22:00:42 <mroman> then you should pick another kind of hash
22:00:56 <mroman> or increase the amounts of bits
22:00:57 <wob_jonas> maybe only a hundred thousand, not an actual million
22:01:16 <mroman> i.e. instead of requiring to find a hash matching the first 16 bits of this hash
22:01:23 <mroman> you require it to match the first 32bits or something
22:01:47 <wob_jonas> but then it really depends on what computer the user has
22:02:08 <wob_jonas> some computers would take 30 minutes, others only 1 minute on the same challenge
22:02:16 <mroman> the whole point is to waste cpu cycles of an attacker
22:02:35 <mroman> and increase global warming :D
22:03:51 <wob_jonas> isn't it better to use human captchas and increase employment?
22:05:03 <wob_jonas> you know, captchas only humans can solve
22:05:20 <mroman> I've been thinking about a new kind of captchas
22:05:34 <mroman> it'll display you N sentences of a conversation out of order
22:05:38 <mroman> and you have to order them
22:05:58 <wob_jonas> nah, that usually doesn't have a unique solution
22:06:26 <wob_jonas> not in conversations you can easily mass-generate
22:06:28 <mroman> they do the same kind of tests to test for autism and stuff
22:06:35 <mroman> so one problem is probably that you exclude autists
22:07:15 <mroman> actually they do it with pictures of people doing things and you have to order the pictures to form a coherent story
22:07:47 <wob_jonas> just use some known hard problem like driving cars at night in a city. you have to remote-drive the car using live camera feeds, and you manage to drive it to the destination (which is about a minute away from the source) without crashing, you succeeded the captcha. if you have a high latency net connection, you can't complete this sort of captcha.
22:08:01 <wob_jonas> mroman: those are even more difficult to mass-produce
22:08:02 <mroman> that was a waste of 3000 bucks
22:08:56 <mroman> the test for autism I took 2 years ago
22:09:29 <mroman> it would produce a new job sector
22:09:34 <wob_jonas> oh, like the policeman and the IQ test?
22:09:47 <mroman> gotta create new jobs for those coal miners
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22:10:56 <wob_jonas> policeman joke. "I was on an IQ test yesterday." "Did you get the result yet?" "<happy> Yes, it's negative."
22:11:37 <mroman> Asperger people aren't stupid
22:11:54 <mroman> It's not that hard to know when something is supposed to be funny
22:12:32 <mroman> these tests measure more your social skills
22:12:48 <mroman> they measure the _pure_ basics of your social skills
22:13:02 <mroman> like showing you faces with specific facial expressions
22:13:10 <mroman> and then assign emotions to the facial expression
22:13:49 <mroman> even if you have very poor social skills you can still tell when a person is smiling or crying
22:13:56 <mroman> those are _very_ obvious facial expressions
22:14:24 <mroman> I had a lot of tests done
22:14:33 <mroman> well health insurance paid it
22:14:42 <wob_jonas> did they at least do useful tests too?
22:14:51 <mroman> you mean like rorschach test?
22:14:54 <mroman> they did those too yes
22:15:56 <wob_jonas> ones that made you feel it was worth paying money for
22:15:57 <mroman> they test wether you can recognize faces of famous people, the test wether you can assign emotions to facial expressions
22:16:05 <mroman> they test wether you can order these picture stories
22:16:15 <mroman> they test your memory by having you remember 10 words
22:16:38 <wob_jonas> I can recognize some of them, but not many
22:16:51 <mroman> they test if your concentration with these p flipped-p test where you have a piece of paper with hundreds of p's some of them are flipped/mirrored and
22:17:02 <mroman> you have to circle the flipped ones as fast as you can.
22:17:19 <wob_jonas> so are they all psychological tests?
22:17:42 <mroman> they have a board with 6 circles and they touch them in some order and you have to repeat that order
22:17:54 <mroman> and then a lot of the "weird" tests such as Rorschach
22:18:07 <mroman> and "build patterns with these colored squares"
22:18:15 <mroman> those are probably the unscientific tests
22:18:20 <mroman> the other ones are at least rooted in some science
22:18:26 <wob_jonas> draw the current time on an analog clock face?
22:18:36 <mroman> no, that I didn't have to do
22:18:44 <mroman> that sounds more like something you do with dementia patients
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22:19:35 <mroman> apparentely I'm unable to form logical conclusions
22:20:02 <wob_jonas> "unable to form logical conclusions"?
22:20:16 <mroman> that sounds like completely made up
22:20:19 <mroman> I teach computer science
22:20:29 <mroman> it would be pretty bad if I couldn't form logical conclusions.
22:20:48 <wob_jonas> yes, although there are a few very horrible teachers out ther
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22:22:20 <mroman> If it rains streets are wet. If streets are wet, did it rain?
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22:22:41 <mroman> Those are questions you can use to establish if someone can think logically
22:22:51 <mroman> so I have no idea where the fuck this comes from.
22:23:11 <LKoen> mroman: do you know the tv series "orphan black"?
22:23:32 <LKoen> there are quite a few episodes in which some of the characters have to submit to daily psychological tests
22:24:09 <LKoen> and thoses tests consists mainly in those kind of questions
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22:24:17 <mroman> I think they can't tell the difference between what's possible and what's not possible.
22:25:02 <LKoen> they're given a syllogism, and have to answer yes or no depending on whether the conclusion is consistent with the two priors
22:25:18 <LKoen> sometimes the conclusion is false, because the priors are false, but that's still a yes if that's consistent
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22:25:40 <mroman> those questions are btw also good for turing tests :D
22:26:27 <LKoen> Taneb: can you train a neural network to answer those questions?
22:26:48 <mroman> One of my useless "talents" is to overthink a lot.
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22:27:20 <mroman> i.e. there's the common believe that if you voluntarily admit yourself into a mental hospital you can leave whenever you want.
22:27:36 <mroman> but it's objectively wrong.
22:27:46 <mroman> there's no such clause/law that actually says this.
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22:29:47 <mroman> so the logical conclusion is that even if you volunarily admit yourself you're actually not guaranteed to be able to get out again.
22:30:20 <mroman> but apparentely psychologists don't accept this as a logical conclusion.
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22:34:51 <mroman> There really is no such law that specifies this.
22:35:10 <Phantom_Hoover> you should read up on paraconsistent logics or something
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22:38:17 <mroman> inconsistency tolerant logic
22:39:20 <mroman> "Dialetheism is the view that some statements can be both true and false simultaneously."
22:40:24 <mroman> > Ambiguous situations may cause humans to affirm both a proposition and its negation. For example, if John stands in the doorway to a room, it may seem reasonable both to affirm that John is in the room and to affirm that John is not in the room.
22:40:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:97: error: parse error on input ‘,’
22:40:44 <mroman> that's just a matter of definition though.
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22:41:04 <mroman> the result isn't of a true contradiciton it's because a term is not well-defined enough for everybody to agree on it
22:41:13 <LKoen> John \cap Room \neq {}
22:41:30 <LKoen> and John \cap cRoom \neq {}
22:41:39 <mroman> if you'd define what exactly is "in the room" then you will have a clear true/false answer
22:41:40 <LKoen> not inconsistent at all :)
22:41:56 <LKoen> I think the ambiguity came from John being larger than the doorstep
22:42:06 <LKoen> just like the Alps are both in France and in Italy
22:45:49 <mroman> I refuse statements that are both true and false :D
22:47:05 <LKoen> it's jsut that the statement make it sound like John is a point
22:47:08 <LKoen> when he's clearly a fat set
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22:56:16 <HackEgo> porthello//Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner.
22:56:20 <lambdabot> quintopia said 6h 44m 33s ago: sure. what time?
22:56:46 <boily> @ask requinthellopia. about 8pm?
22:57:01 <LKoen> is caffè a machine learning ide?
23:00:37 <boily> `cwlprits porthello
23:01:17 <HackEgo> 8751:2016-07-05 <oerjän> le/rn porthello/Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some th\xc3\xa9 or caff\xc3\xa8 and a fternooner.
23:01:19 <boily> I *think* I mentioned caffè in thère because it has an è in it, to counteract the thé's é.
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23:15:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52216&oldid=52203 * Lealcy * (+163)
23:15:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PNID]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52217 * Lealcy * (+6287) Initial edit!
23:17:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52218&oldid=52208 * Lealcy * (+11) Added ''PNID'' to the list of languages.
23:19:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PNID]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52219&oldid=52217 * Lealcy * (+11) /* Interpreter */
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23:22:52 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/N6jVr9cTed4?t=1h
23:23:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PNID]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52220&oldid=52219 * Lealcy * (-1) /* Language overview */
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23:44:15 <HackEgo> goofix//Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
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00:19:22 <Taneb> @tell wob_jonas Sorry, I haven't been on IRC much this afternoon. Yeah, I've completed my uni degree, I'm finishing with a 2-1
00:19:53 <shachaf> Taneb: have you considered getting a job writing K hth
00:21:55 <Taneb> K's a special language, and I don't really want to be working in the breakfast cereal industry
00:28:18 * oerjan gently swats Taneb -----###
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01:21:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: did you read emil books <-- i don't remember clearly. i certainly saw some of the tv episodes.
01:22:41 <oerjan> i've read some other lindgren books, though.
01:23:02 <shachaf> what about emil and the detectives twh
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01:23:20 <oerjan> i believe i've answered that years ago hth
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01:23:50 <oerjan> but the answer is still "never heard of that before you asked"
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01:25:21 <oerjan> anyway, asking three nordic people nonspecifically about "emil" and expecting _any_ of them to think whatever that thing you know is instead of lindgren is stupid hth
01:27:36 <oerjan> there's even a specific christmas episode that is part of our christmas traditions.
01:28:28 <oerjan> (at least in norway, and i would be entirely unsurprised if it were in all three countries.)
01:31:25 <oerjan> hm it may be a whole movie.
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01:34:41 <shachaf> oerjan: I was talking about Lindgren, of course.
01:36:01 <shachaf> But then other Emils came up and what's wrong with them?
01:37:35 <oerjan> they're just hopelessly obscure hth
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06:24:09 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas The Befunge CAPTCHA is random, there are 134217728 of them.
06:26:41 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas (They all have the same code, though -- converting a random 9-digit base-9 number to decimal.)
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07:27:25 <\oren\> I had to go thourgh the toruble of using SASL
07:27:45 <\oren\> because freenode marked my IP as suspected spammer
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08:30:09 <HackEgo> 1/1:clever//Being clever is different from being wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities. \ istr//istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc. \ weather//lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR \ mother//A mother is a person who practices mothology. \ protocol//Protocol is not to be confused with protocoal.
08:30:29 <HackEgo> Mothology is the study of moths, myths and mirths.
08:30:32 <HackEgo> Protocoal is a bit of a wooden pun.
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11:46:35 <lambdabot> CYUL 201039Z 24008KT 190V260 8SM -TSRA FEW007 SCT014 BKN030CB OVC040 18/17 A2969 RMK SF1SF2CB3SC2 SLP056 DENSITY ALT 800FT
11:50:43 <boily> very rainy, much slow internet, resetting modem.
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12:18:59 <wob_jonas> I don't think that works these days
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13:00:08 <HackEgo> 875) <shachaf> When you're a logreader, everything is a quote.
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16:35:46 <mroman> I had to pass two tests to prove I'm human.
16:36:22 <mroman> I wanted to add Stlisp as an example of a language with anyfix notation
16:36:38 <mroman> but I have no idea what my passwords were and I know I already have two accounts on the wiki :D
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18:57:06 <mroman> kjd zddpglu tsfo vdtnsaoh patsfk gö sz
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19:00:35 <pikhq> mroman: U wut mate?
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20:36:10 <shachaf> sleffy: whoa whoa whoa, how long are y'all going to be at the thing?
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21:34:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages? messages
21:37:07 <wob_jonas> mroman: the trick with recaptcha is that the web interface pretends you can use it without client-side javascript, but actually if you use it with javascript disabled, it serves you challenges that are almost impossible to solve by a human, unlike if you use it with javascript enabled.
21:40:45 <wob_jonas> I think I figured out how I want the core of my programming language to work, though I can't yet prove whether it's Turing complete or just powerful enough for every ordinary task. I'll have to write an implementation and some programs. But also,
21:42:04 <wob_jonas> I'll have to figure out what system interface I want to add to it, so programs can read and write from files and such things. I want to design that interface realistic in the sense that if you wrote the operating system in this esolang, you could implement the syscalls with such an interface easily, and flexible so any program can use it even if it
21:42:04 <wob_jonas> follows different conventions than the OS, but
21:42:35 <wob_jonas> also I want to make sure it's not too powerful, because if it is, then people will use it to get around the esoteric difficulties of the core language itself.
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23:06:19 <fungot> boily: like all generalizations, this one will have a documented bfm build. i won't do the load+require in one step, you get
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00:01:53 <lambdabot> ENVA 202250Z 26025KT 9999 VCSH BKN022 09/06 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 27024G41KT
00:10:50 <oerjan> helloily. not very summerly, but tomorrow (22nd) is looking up.
00:11:31 <lambdabot> CYUL 202300Z 22019G26KT 30SM FEW035TCU FEW090 SCT150 BKN240 21/14 A2974 RMK TCU1AC1AC1CI2 SLP073 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
00:11:47 <boily> it humidly summers. my plants are growing like crazy this year!
00:12:23 <boily> tomorrow is the 21st, you futuristic person that you are :P
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00:42:14 * oerjan zooms past boily on his hoverboard
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01:23:23 <boily> first time in the Roulette of Golubria!
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02:27:24 <oerjan> <HackEgo> 875) <shachaf> When you're a logreader, everything is a quote. <-- OKAY
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02:44:11 <oerjan> shachaf: that came up in the logs hth
02:55:43 <oerjan> oh darths & droids hasn't completely stopped updating
02:56:09 <oerjan> they're doing a weekly intermission strip
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05:32:33 <shachaf> sleffy: did you manage to corrupt any youth twh
05:32:55 <sleffy> shachaf, there will probably not be any youth corruption
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09:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> It occurred to me today that ⟨a & (2**k - 1)⟩ is the same as ⟨a % 2**k⟩
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09:21:52 <shachaf> This is already a well-established bit fact that's thoroughly used.
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10:03:59 <FireFly> Well, typically it goes the other direction, choosing the modulus such that you can just AND instead
10:04:10 <FireFly> circular buffers come to mind, for one
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11:32:02 <wob_jonas> I know what I have to do. I keep saying that programming languages should have some built-in arithmetic ops. So if I defined a new esolang without them, that would make me a hypocrite.
11:33:11 <wob_jonas> But what I can do is to first define the esolang without arithmetic ops, then implement some arithmetic functions in the language, then make an extended version of the language that handles functions in that existing arithmetic library as builtins to make them faster, all before releasing anything.
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11:44:22 <boily> Gregor: Grellogor. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! :D
11:46:29 <boily> it's fizzie I should be hollering at?
11:46:44 <Taneb> boily, you can holler at whoever you want to
11:46:53 <boily> TANELLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
11:46:55 <Taneb> But it's fizzie who'll get the job done
11:47:03 <boily> FIZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!
11:47:44 * boily strips down to a coconut skirt, puts on tribal paint, then shamanistically dances around
11:48:15 <boily> “OOGA-CHAKA OOGA-OOGA I CAN'T STOP THIS FEELING ♪”
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12:47:12 <lambdabot> LOWI 211120Z 06005KT 350V100 9999 FEW060 BKN300 28/15 Q1017 NOSIG
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13:47:00 <wob_jonas> fungot, can you resurrect HackEgo please?
13:47:00 <fungot> wob_jonas: weirdo yourself.
13:48:05 <fungot> wob_jonas: except for that annoying song".... thats the scheme that is.)
13:52:07 <fungot> int-e: and it's basically ready for publication yet though. it has some fnord.
13:54:11 <fungot> int-e: and you might even be true! no!!! bj is calling for ya: 237. fnord
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16:10:02 <wob_jonas> fizzie, can you resurrect HackEgo?
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17:06:36 <int-e> . o O ( Rest in peas, HackEgo. )
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17:58:14 <fungot> wob_jonas: it will automatically perform fnord. cf. fnord et al.
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18:26:24 <int-e> excellent reply, I think
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18:39:14 <lambdabot> KSJC 211653Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 21/13 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP093 T02060128
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19:21:39 <\oren\> I thought that was fizzy's job
19:22:28 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I asked fizzy, but he didn't reply yet nor did he resurrect it
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19:22:53 <wob_jonas> I also asked fungot, and he just insulted me in turn, which I guess isn't too surprising
19:22:54 <fungot> wob_jonas: i translated them as ' as small as possible." ( gahh, the horrible pun
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19:38:23 <Aardwolf> Hi, I made an emulator for a turing complete mechanical computer (the Turing Tumble, which has 6 types of components for marbles to roll). What do you think? http://lodev.org/jstumble/
19:39:36 <wob_jonas> oh, is that like http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/index.html
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20:22:59 <Aardwolf> yes except here you can build anything :)
20:24:40 <wob_jonas> Aardwolf: that might qualify as an esolang actually, or at least something that could have an article on the esolangs.org wiki
20:26:09 <Aardwolf> To be clear, the design is not by me (but by paul boswell), but yeah, it sure is, I love it despite saying it's for kids :)
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20:26:42 <wob_jonas> sure, so acknowledge his design. we document esolangs designed by other people.
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20:44:25 <Aardwolf> First draft added :) https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_Tumble
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23:06:44 <\oren\> fucking hipchat, why tf would you replace two spaces with ` '
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00:20:52 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGGHRGHRGHRGHRGH!
00:21:37 <oerjan> he appears somewhat idle.
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00:35:47 * boily lightly, gently mapoles fizzie into existence
00:46:39 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> [...] then implement some arithmetic functions in the language, then make an extended version of the language that handles functions in that existing arithmetic library as builtins to make them faster [...] <-- INTERCAL did that first hth
00:49:55 <oerjan> * boily strips down to a coconut skirt [...] <-- i'm not sure that's a concept...
00:50:18 <oerjan> google seems to know something called coconut skirt steak
00:50:59 <quintopia> i think he meant coconut *palm* skirt with with a coconut shell bra
00:51:31 <oerjan> ok there's http://shop.weekday.com/cz/Womens_shop/Skirts/Coconut_Skirt/542464-13033610.1#c-49929 but it doesn't look very shamany
00:52:00 <lambdabot> pjscott says: If you really want to see something ridiculous, try looking at the auto-generated library documentation for anything involving regular expressions. The type declarations in Text.Regex.
00:52:00 <lambdabot> TDFA are like something H. P. Lovecraft might write about.
00:52:00 <lambdabot> qwe1234 says: it's 2006 already, and the world doesn't need 'dynamic languages'. otherwise, we'd be all programming in perl.
00:52:01 <lambdabot> saml says: long distance never works unless penis is long
00:52:02 <lambdabot> swalters says: I'm starting to believe that learning haskell is mostly about carefully crafting small and clever functions and then finding out that they are already part of the standard library.
00:52:02 <lambdabot> frustrated says: <byorgey> that frustrated feeling that you are just not getting it is the feeling of your brain expanding =)
00:52:35 <oerjan> shachaf: did you feel an urgent need to scroll something away from your view
00:52:50 * oerjan has done that on occasion.
00:53:10 <shachaf> i'm just suffering from HackEgo deprivation hth
00:53:20 <shachaf> @forget saml long distance never works unless penis is long
00:53:23 <oerjan> not unless you have a strong aversion to coconut skirts, any variety.
00:54:06 <shachaf> i have an aversion to palm skirts, but only made with mammal palms
00:54:37 <quintopia> yeah that makes sense. it's the toughest of leathers.
00:55:04 <lambdabot> cjeris says: [on compiling ghc] there's a little italian man with a sausage grinder in there, grinding away. but since the art of sausage making is dying out, he is sadly an old italian man, and
00:55:04 <lambdabot> has no son to turn the sausage grinder with him. but it goes slowly.
00:55:04 <lambdabot> jesusaurus says: git checkout -b feature ; work work work ; git fetch upstream ; git rebase upstream/master
00:55:05 <lambdabot> maybefbi says: Haskell is forcing me to think a lot
00:55:06 <lambdabot> bobbytables says: XML is a markup language that was created to be hard for both humans and computers to read
00:55:06 <quintopia> i'm sure you prefer, say, well-lotioned primate faces
00:55:07 <lambdabot> c2.com says: If you can program anything in HappS you actually already learned Haskell
01:00:19 <oerjan> fungot: can you resurrect fizzie so he can resurrect HackEgo twh
01:00:20 <fungot> oerjan: great. can i help you?. also, if you redefine it you could still ask your question/ state your problem.
01:01:05 <shachaf> fungot: oerjan stated his problem v. clearly hth
01:01:05 <fungot> shachaf: huge functions are so ugly.
01:01:10 <oerjan> fungot: i'd redefine you as HackEgo but you don't have a quote database.
01:01:10 <fungot> oerjan: it's the second part more or less, yes
01:01:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:01:27 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
01:01:42 <shachaf> fungot: more like Order Of The Scow, where's my update tdnh
01:01:42 <fungot> shachaf: " the life and saving us from the orcs and told me
01:05:47 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
01:06:27 <oerjan> hm that's not helping much
01:06:35 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: connect: does not exist (No route to host)
01:06:39 <lambdabot> http://www.i18nqa.com/debug/utf8-debug.html
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10:32:05 <wob_jonas> I think I can prove that the language I'm planning is Turing-complete, because it can simulate a two-stack machine.
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10:48:21 <int-e> . o O ( elastic tape TM )
10:49:34 <int-e> fungot: how are you this fine day?
10:49:34 <fungot> int-e: bring it to bear three degrees and... eight.
10:49:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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11:36:19 <wob_jonas> fizzie, can you please resurrect HackEgo?
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11:40:01 <boily> Is crawl.akrasiac.org down?
11:40:03 <boily> It's not just you! http://crawl.akrasiac.org looks down from here.
11:41:25 <boily> HackEgo is down, wob_jonas disconnected, fizzie is silently meditating, and CAO disappeared...
11:41:34 <lambdabot> CYUL 221000Z 22003KT 30SM FEW050 BKN250 15/13 A2991 RMK CF1CI5 CF TR SLP130 DENSITY ALT 200FT
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13:01:42 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TEWELSWAC "The name stands for The Esolang Where Every Line Starts With A Colon." => oh, you mean like TI basic?
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14:13:02 <wob_jonas> fungot, make fizzie resurrect HackEgo
14:13:03 <fungot> wob_jonas: of, for-- what does that do? really? you tried? really? i thought, is that a good thing you like. that way, and our little dog, too
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15:19:49 <Cale> "YOU CAN'T NEST THESE (unless you can write an interpreter that supports that, since I can't)." lol
15:21:20 <Vorpal> Cale: what language is that?
15:23:59 <Cale> The one that wob_jonas linked above: http://esolangs.org/wiki/TEWELSWAC
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15:27:00 <Vorpal> well, that seems to made by an amateur. But everyone has to start somewhere
15:27:37 <Vorpal> Also seems fairly boring as a languag
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15:29:46 <Cale> Yeah, I just found the emphatic all caps followed by the parenthetical qualification funny :)
15:33:55 <Vorpal> Are there any musical esolangs?
15:33:57 <Cale> There was a guy at the university I went to who had a few really interesting esolangs, but I'm not sure he ever published them anywhere. The one I always remember was this thing that was sort of befunge-like, except that the connected components of the code would form "rafts" which ran in parallel, and could be moved relative to one another, and then iirc, there were cannons that could fire packets of data between the rafts.
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15:42:33 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: yes, there are like six or so musical esolangs
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15:43:27 <Vorpal> will have to look into them at some point
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15:51:32 <Vorpal> hm I lost my login details to the esolang wiki. And I suspect I no longer have the email associated with it
15:52:33 <wob_jonas> It's not hard if you can convert nine digit numbers from one radix to another in your head
15:52:47 <Vorpal> well that I can't do, but I can use a computer to do it
15:52:59 <Vorpal> Or someone else could update the URLs on the befunge page for my two interpreters
15:53:21 <Cale> Vorpal: Some of Alex McLean's stuff might count as musical esolangs, depending on how you interpret that term
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15:53:52 <Vorpal> Cale: I have no ideas what I expected a musical esolang to be when I asked that question
15:54:11 <Vorpal> if anyone cares to update, cfunge has moved to github
15:54:25 <Vorpal> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/cfunge specifically
15:54:26 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: register and do it yourself. it's better in the long run.
15:54:41 <Vorpal> yeah, but I like the user name
15:54:49 <Vorpal> I don't want to be "Vorpal2"
15:55:04 <Vorpal> I don't really do much with esolangs any more. No time
15:56:21 <Vorpal> It is possible the password is saved in a browser on another computer
15:56:29 <Vorpal> will have to check later
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21:01:49 <FireFly> Whoops, unsure why j-bot died
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21:31:22 <nchambers> FireFly: my guess is an issue occured
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22:41:25 <fizzie> I don't have much of an Internet here.
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22:44:24 <fizzie> There we (possibly) go.
22:45:23 <fizzie> I don't know what had happened, the socat process responsible for it was consuming 100% of CPU and only reacted to SIGKILL.
22:46:04 <nchambers> you didn't write it in a shellscript did you?
22:46:27 <fizzie> (And I'm outside the coverage zone of my mobile phone operator.)
22:46:47 <fizzie> I didn't write it in anything, it's not my bot.
22:47:11 <shachaf> fizzie: To be fair you did write some of it.
22:47:18 <fizzie> But it's a mixture of mostly C and a Python, I believe.
22:47:41 <fizzie> Well, I did submit some patches.
22:48:31 <fizzie> (multibot is C, umlbox is C, the hackbot bits are Python.)
22:48:45 <shachaf> oh man, remember https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests/3/fix-repository-cleanup-wrt-spaces-in-paths/diff ?
22:48:46 <nchambers> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests/2/transactional-hackego its not this is it?
22:48:46 <nchambers> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src
22:50:20 <HackEgo> nchambers: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:50:24 <fizzie> But it depends on https://github.com/GregorR/multibot and https://github.com/GregorR/umlbox as well.
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22:53:37 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa, Newcastle is joining Scotland?
23:03:12 <boily> Tanelle. what's the scotlandeal again?
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23:22:53 <DHeadshot> Are you saying that Newcastle now want an indyref?!
23:25:19 <HackEgo> 6 random numbers//4 8 15 16 23 42
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23:47:45 <oerjan> @tell boily hily, byeli
23:57:22 <HackEgo> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON EFNET OR DALNET.)
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00:53:30 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0361 COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE]
00:57:58 <oerjan> fizzie: the wiki bridge is down again hth
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05:43:10 <\oren\> latvia apparently can into space despite lack of potato
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05:57:14 <oerjan> \oren\: but can she grammar?
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06:21:01 <Aearnus> Hey guys, long time no see
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07:31:58 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I may have fixed it. Restarting HackEgo meant it was no longer writing to the same socket HackEgo was reading from.
07:32:51 <Vorpal> fizzie: interesting issue
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07:58:49 <\oren\> I'm starting to become inured to the sound of english with wrong accent
07:58:56 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/c-wq_XCT2qI
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09:20:42 <int-e> "Computers just work by pushing electrons around." -- Hello, fellow electron pusher pushers.
09:22:15 <Taneb> int-e, doesn't, like, most of the universe work like that
09:22:21 <Taneb> Plus some other things like photons and neutrons
09:26:00 <int-e> Taneb: tbf, they're more interested in photons anyway
09:26:39 <int-e> (the quote is from https://www.fox-it.com/nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/Tempest_attacks_against_AES.pdf )
09:26:58 <int-e> well, it's a quote from somewhere else but that's where I saw it
09:28:37 <shachaf> Hmm, so if I cite it, I should cite #esoteric.
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10:58:05 <Cale> Computers are when you hook up a bunch of amplifiers in a pattern to make your glowing rectangles glow the right way.
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11:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52235&oldid=50780 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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12:24:11 <HackEgo> Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
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12:48:47 <mroman> http://cheap.int-e.eu/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi?q=%7B1+2+3+4+5+6%7DJJiTjbxcyz%5B%7Bp%5E%5C%5C%7Dm%5BjiTz%5B%7Bp%5E%2B%2Bj%2B%2B.%3E%7Df%5B%5B%7E%3C- <- gues what this does.
13:04:53 <hppavilion[0]> I get this paranoid feeling Arrow's Impossibility Theorem corresponds directly with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems...
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13:23:38 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 35m 53s ago: hily, byeli
13:31:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EWagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52236&oldid=52053 * Timtomtoaster * (+0)
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13:50:25 <mroman> the voting arrow arrow?
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19:27:38 <\oren\> they are now loading oxygen into the flacon 9
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20:31:49 <zzo38> To store a list of Huffman code lengths, I thought of a possible way to do so. Assume the maximum code length is 62 bits. Use some order of symbols to be coded. If the symbol is not used, code a "0" bit and then how many unused symbols and then the number in the LRU queue indexing the current code length for the next used symbol (if any). Otherwise code a "1" bit and the LRU index for the code length for this symbol.
20:33:45 <zzo38> However, a few more things are done: The LRU queue is initially empty. If indexing something already in the LRU queue, then move it to the front after use. If not, then it encodes a "virual" index of the next code length, assuming that all code lengths larger than the current max code length are in order after the LRU queue; all of them are then moved to the front in reverse order.
20:35:21 <zzo38> Furthermore, the number 2^62 is stored to indicate the minimum code length. After any code length is used, subtract 2^(62-x) from that value where x is the code length. For any code length x if it is now less than 2^(62-x) then remove all numbers less than or equal to x from the LRU queue, since they can no longer be in use
20:36:12 <zzo38> Is this understandable to you now?
20:52:27 <int-e> I followed you as far as proposing to use an LRU queue to manage a map from symbols to Huffman code lengths, maintaining Kraft's inequality (using 2^62 as a scale factor to do the computation in integers). I think that's about 25 to 30% of what you wrote, which is above average.
20:52:53 <int-e> fungot: talk to me?
20:52:53 <fungot> int-e: bring it to bear three degrees and... eight. simple math dictates the futility of your effort, i have, " interrogate paladin," as " par for any loss or injury that may arise on how this new thing i've been trying. bozzok can't be far behind and the year ahead is by far the lowest price i have ever laid at least.
20:53:08 <int-e> ugh, still on oots style
20:53:35 <shachaf> If you followed olist you'd probably be able to make heads and tails of it.
20:55:56 <int-e> I read it up to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html
20:56:17 <int-e> That was, I guess, 5 years ago, and I can't be bothered anymore.
20:56:50 <shachaf> oh man, it gets good at 0727
20:56:57 <shachaf> you just have to stick with it
21:00:44 <zzo38> The other thing to see is how to encode the numbers. There is a maximum (which can vary), and the assumption that lower numbers are generally more probable (but that even higher numbers are not so unlikely).
21:07:24 <zzo38> It is also possible that after a certain point, it is known that all of the remaining symbols are used (being implied by the code lengths, by the assumptions that all codes are meaningful), so is unnecessary to code further "1" bits to indicate that there aren't any more intervening unused symbols.
21:13:23 <zzo38> Reordering the symbols in the list based on what kind of data is expected to be encodeded might also help.
21:15:11 <zzo38> (Also once all codes are in use, the rest of the table need not be stored at all.)
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22:41:35 <rdococ> hppavilion[0], hi. If I were looking at the Mercator projection, on the prime meridian, but with a latitude of L, what correction factor formula should I apply to the scaling of the projection (relative to my viewing point of course) to make size comparisons accurate?
22:45:50 <rdococ> okay, well, given a y position, and the width and height of the projection, how would I determine the latitude angle?
22:50:39 <hppavilion[0]> rdococ: Again, no clue. I haven't really studied maps.
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23:56:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alercah * New user account
23:57:58 <Warrigal_> I'm gonna blab and blah here a bit.
23:58:27 <Warrigal_> I've noticed that a lot of languages seem to compile down to a relatively simple "core language" as a compilation step.
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23:58:59 <Warrigal_> C is a little bit like that in practice. C-before-preprocessing compiles down to C-after-preprocessing.
23:59:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52237&oldid=52232 * Alercah * (+143)
23:59:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[D♭]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52238 * Alercah * (+156) Created page with "'''D♭''' (pronounced "dee flat") is a programming language that works as follows: 1. Evaluate the input as a C♯ program. It is otherwise unremarkable."
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23:59:35 <Warrigal_> Then there's Haskell as compiled by GHC, whose core language is called Core.
23:59:42 <alercah> there, my first esolang in a while
00:00:26 <Warrigal_> Smalltalk is pretty much simple enough that it doesn't need a core language.
00:00:43 <Warrigal_> I think the operations you can do in Smalltalk are pretty much...
00:01:12 <DHeadshot> Everything has a Core Language: Machine Code!
00:01:48 <Warrigal_> But machine code isn't simple at all. :D
00:02:32 <Warrigal_> Oh, and I guess Smalltalk also lets you obtain a couple of special values. Most notably thisContext.
00:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> but like C-without-preprocessing is only a little bit smaller than C-with-preprocessing
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00:40:37 <zzo38> There is also different kind of machine codes
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01:12:59 <oerjan> somebody's forgot to refresh wikipedia
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01:23:22 <oerjan> @ask fizzie what about a named pipe?
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01:41:43 <quintopia> did you make up a new machine code zzo38
01:46:34 <zzo38> I have done a few times, but not quite I suppose
01:51:41 <__kerbal__> Integbot's back for the first time in roughly a week, if any one wants to use him
01:57:13 <zzo38> With JPEG encoding it uses 8x8 blocks, so if the width or height is not a multiple of eight, then it is necessary to include some pixels which are not actually in the picture, as the input for the DCT for that block. What kind of heuristics are best for deciding those extra unused pixels?
01:58:13 <zzo38> I have tried a few ways: Using the nearest pixel seems usually is working best, but I have also made up two other ways which are sometimes better for some pictures it seem.
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03:51:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: Remastered HyperCantata 3 | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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03:57:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:D♭]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52239 * Enoua5 * (+314) Created page with "I was actually going to make this page awhile back. But then I found out that there was already something under this name: https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/13639/Db-The-Fu..."
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08:51:50 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://www.chessvariants.com/invention/unknown-off-pieces-shogi
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10:55:35 <Taneb> Are there any window managers etc that support diagonal displays
10:59:00 <rdococ> why would someone make that?
10:59:17 <Taneb> I figured if someone had, this'd be the kind of place they'd hang out in
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11:54:22 <rdococ> jingle bells jingle bells tis' not the season
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13:22:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Java sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52240&oldid=52233 * IQBigBang * (-2) Blanked the page
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15:57:56 <boily> how was the vacation?
16:01:00 <quintopia> it was every bit as vache as the name "vacation" would imply
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16:03:16 <boily> but there were vaches?
16:07:25 <quintopia> i took lots of pictures. twas fun.
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16:56:58 <__kerbal__> Ok, so I'm working on releasing Integ 1.2. I need a new motto. Last version's motto, courtesy of wob_jonas, was "So many parentheses everywhere."
16:57:17 <__kerbal__> A comparison operator and user-defined operators
16:57:45 <rdococ> An esoteric programming language composed of nothing but parentheses.
16:58:21 <rdococ> I do know we could use church numerals for numbers.
16:59:04 <rdococ> Maybe, but also in my idea.
16:59:19 <rdococ> It's been a while since I last tried my hand at esolanging.
16:59:33 <rdococ> Mainly because my attempts are usually too useful to be esoteric, but still.
16:59:47 <__kerbal__> rdococ: That's not a bad problem to have
17:00:03 <rdococ> I do have an esoteric non-programming-language, it's actually a media storage device named Khartridges.
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17:00:53 <__kerbal__> Ok, so if no one has any other suggestions, the official motto of Integ 1.2 will be "An esoteric programming language composed of nothing but parentheses."
17:00:57 <rdococ> They use battery-backed RAM, which instantly loses its data as soon as you remove the batteries that only last for a few months.
17:01:13 <rdococ> One plus, though, is that the batteries are rechargeable.
17:02:26 <rdococ> I also have an esolang based on slide rules. It's called Rule.
17:02:40 <zzo38> Are too useful to be esoteric? Some are already useful anyways, such as MMIX, FurryScript, and BANCSTAR (although is less useful now that not enough is known about it to be useful).
17:02:52 <zzo38> rdococ: OK, how is it working?
17:03:21 <rdococ> You mean how Rule works? It's on the website.
17:04:10 <zzo38> I have a slide rule.
17:05:14 <rdococ> I also have an esolang without assignments. It's called Assignless.
17:06:37 <rdococ> Rather than using assignments, you would pass the modified value on to a different subroutine.
17:07:24 <zzo38> Yes I looked at that too
17:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52241&oldid=51800 * Rdococ * (+106) Self-evaluations
17:14:37 <__kerbal__> Version 1.2 of Integ is live at https://github.com/kerbin111/Integ. It's probably really buggy at this point...
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17:33:48 <HackEgo> tiet-qcoin wilsoncoin malbeezgcoin abccoin bamcoin enigmecoin beauflagufcoin cupecoin dumcoin digfietcoin slasscoin wtiercoin redcoin luicoin beinicoin chesecoin 3cacoin gehesiscoin archwaycoin tsamcoin
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17:42:32 <doesthiswork> that is too bad, have you looked in the rdococs for a solution?
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17:46:09 <rdococ> nope, no solution seems to be there.
17:47:19 <rdococ> I'll see if anyone can solve the issue on the fungot.
17:47:19 <fungot> rdococ: such as?) nothing to do with my actions that i know conflict with. simple math dictates the futility of your effort, i have, " interrogate paladin," as " par for.
17:52:06 <rdococ> Hm. An esolang without subroutines and assignment but with for..in.. loops and arrays would for.
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18:19:48 <doesthiswork> it isn't a loop in the sense traditionally meant
18:23:13 <rdococ> true, but you can disregard the variable.
18:23:58 <doesthiswork> a for .. in .. loop that appended new values onto the array as it looped would count
18:24:35 <rdococ> would it update though?
18:26:04 <rdococ> anyway, I count that as a form of assignment
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18:28:02 <doesthiswork> what if you were only able to append to a global anonymous queue
18:32:14 <doesthiswork> or appending didn't effect the array itself but only added things for this for in loop to process
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18:33:05 <rdococ> I still think my range(1, infinity) loop would suffice.
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18:33:22 <rdococ> It would take an infinite amount of time to process.
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19:48:42 <__kerbal__> Anybody want to help me test out a 1.2 beta version of Integbot in #esoteric-blah?
19:50:44 <__kerbal__> (and a comparison operator, and a revised comment syntax)
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20:09:34 <HackEgo> olist 1077: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:11:21 <shachaf> rdococ: would you just stop it
20:12:32 <rdococ> Sorry, I wasn't aware that the ellipsis wasn't allowed.
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21:04:12 <__kerbal__> Out of curiosity, how do you do * [action] here?
21:06:58 * int-e would hope that "/me would hope that '/me ...' does the trick." does the trick.
21:06:59 <zzo38> What IRC client are you using?
21:07:17 <zzo38> Depends on the client, I think
21:07:25 <__kerbal__> Nettalk, but I use the freenode webchat sometimes
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21:14:39 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, it 'depends on the client' but almost all clients use /me
21:15:23 <int-e> /ctcp #esoteric ACTION fumbles.
21:16:39 <int-e> (okay, that did wirk. irssi just didn't render that properly locally)
21:19:44 <HackEgo> corium//Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor's core dump is made of.
21:20:13 <int-e> . o O ( `wisdom not by me )
21:20:17 <HackEgo> tvtrope//We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
21:21:22 <shachaf> fizzie: please jam up HackEgo to support seeing the sender's username twh
21:23:27 <__kerbal__> Hey, is there a bot that does befunge in this channel?
21:23:47 <fungot> __kerbal__: wow, that is such a stupid magic item that can allow my power to fail me again. if arcane magic cannot break you, i've been a member, then.
21:24:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:24:12 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:24:44 <int-e> hackego should have a befunge interpreter...
21:25:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: befunge: not found
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21:27:17 <int-e> `` cd ibin; echo *
21:27:17 <HackEgo> 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bf_txtgen boolfuck c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck forth glass glypho haskell help java k kipple lambda lazyk linguine lua malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slashes trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
21:27:23 <int-e> `befunge98 whatever
21:27:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: befunge98: not found
21:27:34 <int-e> `interp befunge98 whatever
21:28:59 <int-e> `! befunge98 whatever
21:29:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: befunge: not found
21:30:07 <int-e> !bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>++++<-]>.
21:30:52 <__kerbal__> (I'm trying to pass the insanely difficult wiki recaptcha
21:31:12 <int-e> `! bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>++++<-]>.
21:31:16 <int-e> ! bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>++++<-]>.
21:31:42 <int-e> `! befunge 9342881541>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
21:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kerbal * New user account
21:32:32 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
21:32:52 <int-e> right. `! is imitating the old egobot interface
21:34:12 <int-e> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>++++<-]>.
21:37:36 <int-e> I wonder whether shachaf ever used that...
21:39:29 <HackEgo> int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:39:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52242&oldid=52237 * Kerbal * (+271)
21:39:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52243&oldid=52242 * Kerbal * (+77)
21:41:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kerbal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52244 * Kerbal * (+163) Created page with "Hi! I'm __kerbal__. I have created [[Integ]], an esolang infamous for abusing parentheses, and Integbot, a bot that interprets Integ and frequents #esoteric-blah."
21:42:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Kerbal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52245 * Kerbal * (+62) Created page with "Here is my talk (or, if you are so inclined, complaints) page."
21:42:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 歡迎: not found
21:42:50 <__kerbal__> Now, I guess I am going to flesh out the info about Integ.
21:43:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 迎: not found
21:43:15 <shachaf> `cwlprits ../bin/\texrb{welcome}
21:44:55 <int-e> also is it worthwhile to finish all nodes in TIS 100? I have 6 left and they all look kind of tedious
21:45:31 <shachaf> I didn't play very much of that game. Probably less than you.
21:45:31 <int-e> (and I did finish the wave collapse supervisor)
21:46:17 <int-e> (which is the last node in the second (TIS-NET) level set)
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22:07:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52246&oldid=52201 * Kerbal * (+21041) THIS IS NOT DONE YET
22:07:40 <__kerbal__> That wiki edit is not done yet, so disregard the Befunge info being used as a template
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01:32:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Integ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52257 * Kerbal * (+0) Created blank page
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02:36:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52258&oldid=52246 * Kerbal * (-7911) Substantially expanded the page
02:38:31 <__kerbal__> Ok, the Integ wiki page has been expanded and improved
02:39:01 <__kerbal__> (you see the - because I used the befunge page as a template)
02:39:12 <__kerbal__> but it was expanded relative to the way it was
02:44:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52259&oldid=52258 * Kerbal * (+24)
02:45:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52260&oldid=52259 * Kerbal * (+1)
02:45:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52261&oldid=52260 * Kerbal * (+25)
02:46:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52262&oldid=52261 * Kerbal * (-1)
02:47:21 * oerjan points kerbal at preview button
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12:17:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ron.hudson]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52263&oldid=35117 * Ron.hudson * (+100) /* Who am I */
12:18:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tiny]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52264&oldid=50602 * Ron.hudson * (+3) /* Syntax */
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13:02:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52265&oldid=52028 * Kerbal * (+93)
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13:05:52 <__kerbal___> A question about truth machines. What do truth machines do if they get input other than 1 or 0?
13:11:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52266&oldid=51987 * Kerbal * (+77)
13:16:47 <HackEgo> xor//Xor is just addition of nimbers.
13:21:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52267&oldid=52262 * Kerbal * (+89)
13:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52268&oldid=52267 * Kerbal * (+1)
13:27:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52269&oldid=52268 * Kerbal * (+331)
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14:05:19 <boily> rdochelloc. do you drink coffee?
14:06:48 <rdococ> I'm considering using a billiard ball system to simulate a quantum one.
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14:21:44 <int-e> rdococ: I'm sure there's a wikipedia page on nimbers
14:22:07 <int-e> or, at the very least, Nim.
14:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52270&oldid=51993 * Kerbal * (+2612)
14:59:29 <rdococ> is quantum computing even related to reversible computing?
14:59:37 <rdococ> I think it is, but I'm not sure.
15:03:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Braingolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52271 * Kerbal * (+183) Created page with "==Empty Stack== What does = print when the stack is empty? Nothing or some sort of empty stack signifier? ~~~~"
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15:51:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52272&oldid=52269 * Kerbal * (+22)
15:52:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52273&oldid=52272 * Kerbal * (-68)
15:55:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52274&oldid=52273 * Kerbal * (-1)
15:56:18 <alercah> rdococ: they are related sort of. quantum operations other than measurement are reversible
15:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52275&oldid=52274 * Kerbal * (+1)
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17:29:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Ouroboros]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52277 * Kerbal * (+140) Created page with "This language is so innovative and disgusting at the same time. ~~~~"
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18:05:26 <\oren\> OH FFS Microsoft, why would you have a "disconnect my mouse randomly" button?
18:09:14 <rdococ> This is Microsoft you're talking about, don't forget.
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18:33:43 * rdococ is wondering about reversible computing
18:34:10 <rdococ> I want to create an esolang in which you can only define reversible operations.
18:35:35 <zzo38> I there there are some, but you may be able to make better one
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18:36:30 <int-e> rdococ: well there's kayak
18:36:33 <rdococ> I was looking at billiard ball computing, but I'm not sure
18:38:03 <rdococ> I actually want to design a programming language with reversible computing /and/ probabilistic logic.
18:42:54 <rdococ> I was considering a truth table with restrictions such as "the number of inputs = the number of outputs", and "each input combination should result in a unique output combination".
18:46:11 <rdococ> Maybe I should just use the Toffoli gate?
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18:59:03 <rdococ> I'm thinking about gnitupmoc elbisrever.
19:16:58 <zzo38> I have thought about a kind of partially reversible program language for a compression scheme, where the non-reversible part is used for predictions, and then the reversible part performs the compression based on those predictions.
19:26:48 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what this kind of parsing is called? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/wiki?name=Parser
19:31:01 <zzo38> (Although now it look to me there might be a few mistakes?)
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19:38:06 <zzo38> The mistake I mean is that if state is nonnegative it pushes the state to the backtracking stack before pushing EXIT, but after popping EXIT the next thing it expects to pop is one of the constants EXIT or NORMAL or ENTER, not a state.
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19:44:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52278&oldid=52243 * Stestoltz * (+194) /* Introductions */
19:53:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Stestoltz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52279 * Stestoltz * (+182) Me :)
19:53:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Stestoltz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52280&oldid=52279 * Stestoltz * (+0)
19:54:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CQuents]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52281 * Stestoltz * (+268) First commit
19:55:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52282&oldid=52234 * Stestoltz * (+14) /* C */
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20:08:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Manushand * New user account
20:09:55 <rdococ> will you clean the Phantom_Dirt from the Phantom_Carpet?
20:11:20 <rdococ> no, but I have a Phantom_Socket if you want to Phantom_Plug yourself in.
20:11:52 <rdococ> only problem is, Phantom_Things are ethereal, so you'll have to flick the Phantom_Switch.
20:13:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cquents]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52283 * Stestoltz * (+22) Redirect
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20:48:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52284&oldid=52278 * Manushand * (+325)
20:48:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52285&oldid=52284 * Manushand * (+86)
20:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52286&oldid=50536 * Manushand * (-2) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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23:06:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52287&oldid=52286 * Manushand * (-6) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52288&oldid=52287 * Manushand * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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00:17:18 * boily pokes the quinthellopia
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00:42:13 <boily> let me switch to the laptop...
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00:44:36 <boily> quintopia: can you send me the link again please?
00:45:16 <quintopia> whatever happened to the concept of logs?
00:45:32 <boily> the logs are disjoincted >_>'...
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01:00:16 <__kerbal__> I think (but am not sure) that Integ 1.3 will have packages.
01:00:58 <__kerbal__> It's going to be a convoluted system (that utilizes an online retrieval system and integer package identification numbers) but I think it will work
01:01:19 <__kerbal__> (although by packages, I mean individual Integ files)
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03:38:33 <zzo38> How many gallons of wine will fit in one egg?
03:41:10 <shachaf> An egg from which sort of animal?
03:44:55 <zzo38> (assume that there is nothing else inside of the egg)
03:45:21 <oerjan> . o O ( INEBRIATED CHICKEN )
03:45:44 <zzo38> (there is no chicken inside either, only the wine)
03:49:29 <oerjan> . o O ( EVICTED CHICKEN )
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03:54:53 <shachaf> Turning white into wine is pretty easy -- edit distance 2 -- but I'm not sure about yolk.
03:55:49 <zzo38> Yes, but that does not answer my original question.
03:56:02 <shachaf> Cale: i,i what's the difference between an autohomeomorphism and an endohomeomorphism?
03:56:24 <oerjan> yolk folk filk file fine wine hth
03:57:14 <shachaf> oerjan: i spent a while trying to read that as a sentence tdnh
03:58:05 <oerjan> shachaf: for that to be different, you'd need some way (maybe a subcategory) for a homeomorphism _not_ to be an isomorphism hth
03:58:06 <shachaf> challenge: make a long sentence where each word is edit distance 1 from the previous word
03:58:07 <Cale> shachaf: nothing
04:00:30 <Cale> shachaf: haha, and this paper uses "auto(homeo)morphism group"
04:00:45 <Cale> (with the parens like that)
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04:12:00 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/gurps/newitem
04:14:34 <zzo38> I mean the people on this channel who will read it, so, it can also include you.
04:14:38 <Cale> at -0 brightness -- is that IEEE floating point? :)
04:15:31 <zzo38> Cale: No. It is how brightness is specified in GURPS; that is the maximum normal brightness
04:15:53 <zzo38> (Complete darkness is -10)
04:18:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52289&oldid=52288 * Manushand * (-21) /* Factorial */
04:18:20 <Cale> What happens when the brightness becomes positive? People start taking damage?
04:20:28 <zzo38> I think it can damage your eyes.
04:29:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52290&oldid=52289 * Manushand * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
04:30:26 <Cale> === Kerosene-Filled Orange ===
04:31:17 <Cale> This object appears to be an ordinary orange until an attempt to bite or cut it is made. It is then revealed to be filled with kerosene. The kerosene may be used as fuel, but is highly toxic.
04:33:57 <zzo38> The monitor on my computer is keep going off I think it is because it is hot. How should I avoid that?
04:35:43 <Cale> Maybe a desk fan? But it doesn't seem so common for displays to generate all that much heat.
04:36:24 <Cale> The *graphics card* overheating is more likely
04:36:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52291&oldid=52290 * Manushand * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
04:36:47 <zzo38> No, it is the display; I can feel it.
04:37:08 <Cale> What kind of display is it?
04:38:20 <Cale> Are the air vents clear?
04:39:14 <zzo38> Are those the holes on the back near the top? They had dust but I just cleared them a minute ago
04:41:09 <Cale> I guess see if that helps, but I would be worried that something is going wrong with the electronics inside for it to be generating very much heat.
04:44:03 <zzo38> Well, it seem to be working now (I hope)
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05:12:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52292&oldid=52291 * Manushand * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
05:38:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52293&oldid=52292 * Manushand * (-2) /* Square root */
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06:09:44 <quintopia> oerjan: also yolk york yore wore wire wine, but it's the same number of steps. five is optimal.
06:16:30 <oerjan> there does seem to be a lack of any neighbors to yolk by just substituting with a letter from wine in the right place.
06:16:46 <oerjan> at least from wiktionary.
06:17:35 <oerjan> wine wink wonk .... yolk
06:28:17 <\oren\> lol, now I'm controlling my spacecraft entirely though putty
06:28:47 <\oren\> not even gonna look at the ksp window
06:40:24 <\oren\> https://www.pastebin.ca/3835745
06:44:57 <zzo38> Now all of the buttons on the monitor seem to turn it on/off, rather than only the on/off switch. Why is that?
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07:21:45 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe there's an electric fault in it?
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07:57:11 <zzo38> Now I made up a Node.js package called "sigpipe" which emulates termination on SIGPIPE for console.log and fs.writeSync to fd 1. Just write: require("sigpipe");
07:57:52 <zzo38> By default, Node.js ignores SIGPIPE (I don't know why).
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08:32:56 <zzo38> I wrote a implementation of the parser I have described, in JavaScript, and found another mistake, which I have corrected.
08:34:09 <zzo38> This is implementation in JavaScript: http://sprunge.us/jYgX As an example it uses a variant of a grammar called "G3" in a book I have about compilers.
08:51:20 <zzo38> I have not been able to find or get anywhere any explanation what this kind of parser is called.
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11:31:52 <int-e> "Due to this erratum, the system may experience unpredictable system behavior." <-- this is the bestest error description ever. Thanks, Intel!
11:34:17 <Taneb> Things are moving fast for me
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11:34:39 <Taneb> Look for a place to live in Cambridge on Thursday, move in (hopefully) on Sunday, starting work on Monday
11:35:10 <shachaf> are you going to stick around in massachusetts
11:35:20 <Taneb> Unlikely, but you might find me in East Anglia
11:36:57 <Taneb> That is to say, I'm moving to Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom, rather than Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States
11:38:09 <fizzie> Someone in our team was living in Cambridge, commuting to London. Apparently it's quite doable if you live near the TRAINS.
11:38:59 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you live in London?
11:39:20 <Taneb> fizzie, it sounds a lot cheaper than living in London and commuting to Cambridge
11:39:32 <shachaf> Did you buy a house in London yet?
11:47:17 <fizzie> I think if we bought something, it'd be an apartment, not a house. Houses sound difficult. Even so, not yet.
11:59:08 <fizzie> There were lots of reasonably priced properties up north in Scotland (just came back from there), but I don't think I could commute to London from there.
12:02:47 <shachaf> have you checked properties in ireland
12:03:03 <shachaf> i hear the prices in the capital are increasing exponentially
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15:15:25 <HackEgo> on't wark the \ brown, add the sugar and sugar. During the follow from tender-and simply \ work out the several and syrup is theat \ hold it. \ \ The peb anyticier's excellent of the cold with the pie filling. \ \ Fry with the vanilla the flour mixture to serving freezer to a pound. Yield: 20 Oct 199 Mayonnaise and \ fresh chicken freeze
15:15:25 <HackEgo> 186) <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
15:15:25 <HackEgo> Embrace My Diabolical Vision
15:15:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
15:16:03 <wob_jonas> 20 Oct 199 Mayonnaise, yeah, that was a great day
15:16:21 <HackEgo> uaneb//Uaneb is the inventor of many fine things, such as Zork and e-modules.
15:16:34 <HackEgo> 1279) <prooftechnique> I mean, that's just the bare function. You throw some concurrency primitives in there and you're off to the races
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17:01:40 <wob_jonas> heh, there's now a claimed implementation for But Is It Art?
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18:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52294&oldid=52256 * Qwertyu63 * (+21)
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18:20:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52296&oldid=52295 * Qwertyu63 * (+270)
18:21:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52297&oldid=52296 * Qwertyu63 * (-11)
18:24:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52298&oldid=52297 * Qwertyu63 * (+201)
18:27:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52299&oldid=52298 * Qwertyu63 * (+249)
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19:50:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52300 * Kerbal * (+112) /* Number Factory */ new section
19:50:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52301&oldid=52300 * Kerbal * (+77)
19:50:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52302&oldid=52301 * Kerbal * (+8)
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20:38:58 <\oren\> "please immediately revert this change, as it will break everything for everyone"
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22:42:59 <HackEgo> אrjan//אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
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22:51:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emotebatch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52303&oldid=36533 * Zseri * (-6) remove empty lines
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22:53:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zseri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52304 * Zseri * (+170) create page
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23:20:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52305&oldid=52276 * Kerbal * (+43)
23:21:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52306&oldid=52305 * Kerbal * (+4)
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00:10:28 <rdococ> hyoomans. hyoomans everywhyere.
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01:28:28 <HackEgo> 372) <oklopol> such a famous bisexual <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, like Marlon Brando. <Phantom_Hoover> And Caligula. <Phantom_Hoover> And... Keeley Hawes? <Phantom_Hoover> I feel cheated by Ashes to Ashes now.
01:28:32 <HackEgo> 1/2:155) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two! \ 556) <fizzie dictionary> An 'ad hobbitem' fallacy is when you try to undermine someone's credibility by referring to how hairy his/her feets are. \ 1036) <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations \ 790) <elliott> this sound
01:28:41 <HackEgo> 2/2:s sort of like @ kmc <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science
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01:29:28 <HackEgo> 186) <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
01:29:57 <oerjan> were those nicks accurate at the time...
01:30:32 <shachaf> And we can't even doag it.
01:30:45 <oerjan> indeed, nitia is probably responsible
01:31:18 <shachaf> I see you complaining about it at http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-09-18.txt
01:31:19 <oerjan> `1 hg cat -r 1 quotes | grep LoTR
01:31:26 <HackEgo> 1/1:<Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
01:31:30 <shachaf> Remember when 2013 was 4 years ago?
01:31:41 <oerjan> as if it was yesterday
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02:14:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52307&oldid=52299 * Qwertyu63 * (+205)
02:16:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52308 * Qwertyu63 * (+4366) Created page with "'''Number Factory:'''<br /> You've been called upon to program a robot to work at the Number Factory. You'll need to direct the bot to move from one room to another to create..."
02:18:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52309&oldid=52307 * Qwertyu63 * (-4228) Replaced content with "Languages I've written: * Writer and implementer of [[Stack Up]]. * Writer of [[Set]]. * Writer of [[Emoji-gramming]]. * Writer of [[Number Factory]]."
02:19:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52310&oldid=52309 * Qwertyu63 * (+44)
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03:34:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52311&oldid=51957 * Qwertyu63 * (+4)
03:51:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52312&oldid=52311 * Qwertyu63 * (+64)
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11:45:41 <lambdabot> CYUL 271000Z 22009G16KT 15SM FEW020 FEW030 SCT075 SCT120 15/11 A2993 RMK CU1SC1AC2AC1 CU TR SLP138 DENSITY ALT 200FT
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12:59:53 <__kerbal___> wob_jonas: Integ now has a comparison operator and user-defined operators.
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13:01:24 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: is it documented now what the } operator returns?
13:02:22 <wob_jonas> its return value is useful for brevity
13:02:38 <wob_jonas> you might document what ? and ~ return too while you're there
13:03:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52314&oldid=52306 * Kerbal * (+47)
13:03:35 <wob_jonas> wait, you have persistent operator definitions now?
13:04:08 <wob_jonas> hmm, but that still only allows like bounded amount of memory, right?
13:04:25 <wob_jonas> because you can only have 60 or so user-defined operators, and you have to define each in one line
13:04:44 <wob_jonas> or do you allow user-defined functions with names longer than a single character now?
13:04:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52315&oldid=52314 * Kerbal * (+159)
13:05:24 <__kerbal___> There's only 52 allowed user-defined operators right now, but I may open up other Unicode blocks soon
13:05:50 <wob_jonas> also, I think the description on the wiki should mention the implicit sequencing operator
13:07:00 <wob_jonas> unless you're planning to replace that soon that is
13:07:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52316&oldid=52315 * Kerbal * (+156)
13:08:20 <wob_jonas> and if int-e's shorter quine works, you might want to put that on the wiki page instead of the ugly long one I wrote
13:09:22 <wob_jonas> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/17.06.17 has it
13:10:38 <wob_jonas> http://sprunge.us/cBXQ has just the quine
13:14:12 <__kerbal___> I can't test it right now, but I'll check the logs later and test it
13:16:05 <__kerbal___> I might keep yours and put the other one up
13:18:48 <wob_jonas> but then int-e improved mine so it's basically superceded
13:19:16 <wob_jonas> I did write a shorter one using an array of numbers instead of a large integer though
13:19:18 <__kerbal___> I want to build a package system that connects to the web, and create a standard library
13:19:29 <__kerbal___> I've got a complex, but workable arrangement planned
13:20:05 <__kerbal___> where packages are assigned a unique identification number and retrieved from online
13:22:14 <wob_jonas> or just install one with hackego with a builtin to load files local to hackego
13:25:09 <__kerbal___> well, I was planning on creating a routing repository which would contain the id number and the address where the package is stored. That way, you wouldn't have to upload packages to an Integ server; just keep them on your own and give Integbot or a similar script a link and a description
13:25:42 <__kerbal___> then, Integ would ask the repo for the file that corresponds to the number
13:25:43 <wob_jonas> oh, so you just mean loading code from the web with an url?
13:26:08 <__kerbal___> No updating packages on your local system ever required unless you are the creator
13:26:21 <__kerbal___> (and even then, you just update the web copy)
13:26:36 <__kerbal___> You'll only be able to get packages through the web
13:28:28 <__kerbal___> Basically, you will include packages with an overcomment of the form .x. where x is the id number
13:28:55 <__kerbal___> Your implementation will look up the number from the repo
13:29:10 <__kerbal___> and then execute that code before it executes the local code
13:29:31 <__kerbal___> This gives you access to any operator definitions and useful setup bits in the package
13:31:47 <__kerbal___> I don't think (but could be wrong) that security issues would result; Integ has no access to the file system
13:33:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52317&oldid=52316 * Kerbal * (+4)
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13:55:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52318&oldid=52317 * Kerbal * (-5)
13:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52319&oldid=52318 * Kerbal * (+0)
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13:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52320&oldid=52319 * Kerbal * (+1)
13:57:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kerbal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52321&oldid=52244 * Kerbal * (+58)
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14:50:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52323&oldid=52322 * Qwertyu63 * (+67)
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15:21:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Snack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52324&oldid=43107 * Kerbal * (+121)
15:22:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Snack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52325&oldid=52324 * Kerbal * (+71)
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15:58:09 <int-e> grr, mercurial. hg ci . --amend didn't work because I had no changes in . ... I wanted to amend the description and *not* commit the changes elsewhere.
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17:15:45 <fizzie> int-e: How about --amend --edit?
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17:44:20 <int-e> fizzie: doesn't do the trick
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17:48:05 <int-e> fizzie: I solved it by moving the local change out of the way (it was just a single file) but I'm still annoyed
17:53:41 <shachaf> int-e: what does hg githelp tell you to do twh
17:54:03 <shachaf> I haven't tried it but I wonder how well it works for slight edge cases like this.
17:54:06 <int-e> hg: unknown command 'githelp'
17:54:17 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: connect: does not exist (No route to host)
17:54:28 <shachaf> https://bitbucket.org/facebook/hg-experimental
17:54:46 <shachaf> It's a Facebook extension for people who know how to use git and want to use hg.
17:56:12 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
18:03:07 <int-e> https://bitbucket.org/facebook/hg-experimental/src/e0b3fe913800ccf9376e4f1720eecaf5a2eb183b/hgext3rd/githelp.py?at=default#githelp.py-438 ... it won't do anything useful
18:09:02 <int-e> apparently I could have specified an actual file (even if it's unchanged) instead of a directory.
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18:11:32 <fizzie> "hg amend -e" is what I do to edit the commit message when I don't have any local changes, but I've not tried to edit the message while ignoring local changes.
18:11:43 <fizzie> I don't know if "hg amend" is just an alias for "hg ci --amend", either, or something more.
18:14:14 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you like suffix arrays (and suffix trees)?
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18:15:07 <int-e> he should, given that they're a nice way of finding repeated ngrams?
18:17:16 <shachaf> Apparently many of the recent advances in suffix trees/arrays have been made by Finns.
18:17:27 <shachaf> So I assume they're very popular in Finland.
18:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Functional deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52326 * Ehulinsky * (+442) Created page with "'''Functional Deadfish''' is an expansion of Deadfish which adds "functions" Its syntax is the same except for the '''f''' and '''c''' command. All commands between two f com..."
18:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Functional deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52327&oldid=52326 * Ehulinsky * (-3)
18:21:24 <shachaf> int-e: Do you know the fancy linear-time algorithm for constructing suffix arrays?
18:22:55 <int-e> there's the Ukkonen suffix trie thing... toyed with it 15 years ago I guess
18:23:23 <shachaf> I should figure out this other algorithm for constructing a suffix array directly.
18:23:27 <int-e> but it's quite memory hungry (linear, of course, but the factor is nowhere close to 1)
18:23:55 <shachaf> Given a suffix array and a letter histogram of a string S, you can reconstruct S. Is there an efficient way to query S[i]?
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18:31:17 <int-e> Hmm, you have to find i in the suffix array, don't you, then translate the resulting index in the histogram? The first part seems to require a linear scan of the suffix array, unless I'm missing something devilishly clever
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18:54:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52328&oldid=45836 * Nikoraito * (-1128) /* Extensions */
18:54:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52329&oldid=52328 * Nikoraito * (+2) /* Extensions */
18:54:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52330&oldid=52329 * Nikoraito * (-3) /* Extensions */
19:25:32 <fizzie> shachaf: fungot likes what arguably are a little bit like a suffix tree, if you squint at a funhouse mirror. (Okay, it's not very much like a proper suffix tree, except that it's a tree, and suffixes are involved.)
19:25:32 <fungot> fizzie: you know, that went fairly well, that too. i'm sorry that i couldn't we? i can't i get an endure heat spell aready?
19:25:55 <shachaf> What does fungot do with them?
19:25:55 <fungot> shachaf: if by " age old" she means, " after i die". you need, my dear, i think as long as i move and ready an attack to disrupt my sleep with some timely ( if anyone is going to be the hardest. he's dead
19:26:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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20:21:47 <shachaf> int-e: You're right, it's obviously impossible in general.
20:22:09 <shachaf> int-e: Sometimes people store the inverse permutation as well, which would let you do it. But of course that uses more space than the original string, so it's only relevant if you wanted to store it anyway.
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20:56:22 <fizzie> shachaf: I think I've explained this on-channel once, but
20:56:34 <fizzie> But I can't use my keyboard.
21:03:47 <\oren\> fizzie: buy a new one?
21:04:19 <fizzie> shachaf: Anyway I was referring to the babbling models, which are in what I call a reverse-context tree, where the node at path /a/b/c/d contains the list of 5-grams that have the form "d c b a *", the idea being that since it's a variable-length model, you just descend the tree and simultaneously walk backwards the list of generated tokens until you have no more children left.
21:05:23 <fizzie> \oren\: I'm actually in a market for a new keyboard, I just can't decide which one to get. I've managed to narrow it to about maybe 5 candidates, but each of them has something wrong.
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21:15:13 <shachaf> fizzie: Your contention that this isn't very much like a suffix tree makes sense to me.
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21:33:09 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> It's a Facebook extension for people who know how to use git and want to use hg." (githelp)
21:33:26 <wob_jonas> What's the point of that? Git is like the hardest to use vcs interface-wise.
21:33:47 <shachaf> The git interface makes sense to me.
21:34:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: it's not, once you've learned it :-P
21:34:23 <wob_jonas> yeah, I think we had this discussion a lot of times in this channel
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21:35:23 <\oren\> also why is there no command to make a pull request
21:35:43 <shachaf> assuming you're talking about github
21:35:50 <int-e> It's called push, basically.
21:38:12 <shachaf> I think it's not hard to invent a VCS UI better than git and hg.
21:38:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you mean for a distributed vcs, right?
21:39:22 <shachaf> Being distributed is a reasonable feature, though having central servers with all sorts of features is pretty good.
21:39:40 <shachaf> No particular reason you shouldn't be able to fetch all the data from the central server for yourself, if the repository is small enough.
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21:41:34 <wob_jonas> I'd like a distributed vcs where the UI easily allows me to repeatedly fetch only some of the contents of the repo from the remote, choosing any set of files and versions of them, and lets me change the filtering in any way even after the fact, both to fetch more stuff or to free up space used by versions I don't need.
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21:52:06 <HackEgo> 554) <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
21:57:14 <HackEgo> 554) <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
21:57:21 <HackEgo> 554) <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
21:57:31 <HackEgo> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
21:58:30 <HackEgo> A feather is something that can be found on most birds. It is responsible for their ability to not spontaneously float, seeing as how feathers are made of osmium. Penguins and ostriches have more feathers than most other birds, many of which are internal.
21:58:47 <wob_jonas> should there be a wisdom entry explaining scapegoat? it would be too factual
22:01:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:human//Humans are a species rumored to be a majority in the channel, but evidence seems inconclusive. They are constantly evolving, although not as fast as pokémons. \ english channel//If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland. \ thyme//Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano. \ trick//A trick lear
22:05:00 <HackEgo> 2/2:nt is a trick half forgotten. \ twhib//the world holds its breath
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23:01:35 <HackEgo> cooperate//"Cooperate" is a common misspelling of "cōöperāte".
23:02:23 <rdococ> If you're using the macron to signal a "long" vowel, then do you need the ending "e"?
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23:07:38 <boily> rdochelloc. it's the proper spelling hth
23:08:02 <rdococ> True, but the "e" is there to signal that the preceding vowel is a so-called "long" vowel.
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23:08:37 <rdococ> Also, I like reserving the other diacritic for the umlaut.
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23:19:48 * boily gracefully måpōles rdococ
23:21:21 <rdococ> I'm working on a constructed (linguistic) language right now where the umlaut sounds <ü ö ä ë> have shifted from their Germanic equivalents to "iotated" versions of their non-umlauted selves - e.g. <ü> is now /ju/.
23:22:04 <rdococ> where /j/ is a "y" sound like in "yacht".
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23:46:45 <LKoen> a linguistic language
23:46:59 <LKoen> as opposed to a programming progage?
23:48:48 <FireFly> so, diaeresis indicates a preceding /j/ in your orthography?
23:49:24 <FireFly> Hmm, I guess that's not really a /j/ though, never mind
23:50:25 <FireFly> I sometimes pronounce leading j as /j/ instead of /dʒ/ in english, it probably sounds pretty silly
23:52:34 <boily> HELLoen, FirelloFly.
23:55:29 <alercah> boily: I forgot to apologize for not making it to mahjong:( sorry
23:59:24 <boily> hellorcah! no worries :)
00:00:04 <boily> as long as you're still shuffling tiles happily, all is fine ^^
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00:06:22 <alercah> boily: sunday will be my first time in a while. with gemma!
00:07:19 <boily> high profile game!
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01:24:30 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Kitty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
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03:25:36 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: hintrampumpkin
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04:34:04 <HackEgo> [U+1D6B LATIN SMALL LETTER UE]
04:34:51 <HackEgo> [U+1D79 LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR G]
04:35:01 <shachaf> more like SMALL LETTER INSOLENT G
04:38:56 <HackEgo> [U+A4F4 LISU LETTER U] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+A4F1 LISU LETTER EU] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+A4EF LISU LETTER AE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+A4E6 LISU LETTER HA] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+A4E5 LISU LETTER NGA] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+A4D5 LISU LETTER THA] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+A4D4 LISU LETTER TA]
04:39:23 <shachaf> those lisu folks are quite the mathematicians, aren't they
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08:09:21 <shachaf> oerjan: I was playing a word game and I clued "A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more this" and no one got it. :-(
08:09:33 <shachaf> Then I clued "within palpatine" and no one got it either.
08:09:37 <shachaf> And it turned out to be the right word!
08:17:14 <oerjan> i don't think my pun was meant to be reversible.
08:17:30 <oerjan> the second depends on them being big enough geeks.
08:21:28 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Kitty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
08:21:49 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s,darth,"Darth Ept",
08:21:52 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal witty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Kitty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
08:22:06 <shachaf> Well, this is a game all about cluing words without saying them.
08:22:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> And it turned out to be the right word! <-- does this mean you did not know which word you were cluing?
08:23:12 <shachaf> I mean, I knew the word "insidious".
08:23:19 <shachaf> But I didn't know that was also the wordmaster's word.
08:24:05 <shachaf> you might even say it was insidious
08:30:24 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s,wi,swa,
08:30:26 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Kitty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
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09:53:53 <MrBusiness> So here's something esoteric: does anyone know of a Curta for sale that's newer than a model 1?
09:54:10 <MrBusiness> I'd like to own a working Curta calculator before I die
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13:19:47 <__kerbal___> How thick would a printed version of the esolang wiki be?
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14:54:36 <HackEgo> 8 is banned from #esoteric because 7 8 9
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15:15:59 <__kerbal___> How do I list HackEgo's wisdom directory? I tried
15:16:04 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
15:17:35 <sdhand> Pm the command to hackego I guess
15:20:27 <sdhand> That sounds broken heh
15:26:26 <FireFly> I don't think ls is aware of whether the command is in-channel or in query
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21:20:49 <fizzie> Exciting. A new version of Ruby, so let's see if I can bring zemhill back up at all.
21:21:34 <shachaf> Let me guess, it's a convoluted contraption that uses many odd language features, so you don't have much hope of backwards compatibility.
21:21:42 <shachaf> A real Ruby Goldberg machine.
21:22:42 <shachaf> Cale: Should I like the Kuratowski closure axioms?
21:22:59 <Cale> shachaf: I guess so
21:23:45 <Cale> shachaf: I find it odd that you often reply to me here rather than in the channel which prompted the conversation :D
21:24:06 <shachaf> Someone likes them because "f is continuous" means "x in cl(A) --> f(x) in cl(f(A))"
21:24:14 <shachaf> Oh, well, I don't talk in that channel.
21:24:53 <shachaf> Anyway, there's no inverse image condition.
21:24:56 <fizzie> shachaf: It's a convoluted contraption for sure, I don't really know about the odd language features.
21:25:15 <shachaf> fizzie: I just wanted an opportunity for the pun, that's all.
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21:25:41 <fizzie> At least it started, after installing a few gems.
21:25:51 <zemhill> fizzie.uh: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
21:25:58 <fizzie> Well, that looks vaguely promising.
21:26:08 <shachaf> Really? It looks like a pretty bad contender to me.
21:26:08 <fizzie> Also the alerting worked.
21:26:29 <shachaf> You get an alert every time someone submits a program to zemhill?
21:26:46 <fizzie> No, I got an alert during the time it wasn't working.
21:26:54 <fizzie> There's a black-box probe every 5 minutes.
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21:26:56 <Taneb> !ztest why >[[-]>]
21:26:56 <zemhill> Taneb.why: points -32.57, score 4.21, rank 47/47
21:27:29 <Taneb> !ztest why >>>>>>>>>[[-]>]
21:27:29 <zemhill> Taneb.why: points -29.86, score 5.07, rank 47/47
21:28:18 <Taneb> BF Joust is a game I don't have the patience for
21:39:26 <shachaf> would you prefer bfderivativejoust twh
21:39:42 <shachaf> Maybe you can invent Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download Joust
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21:54:49 <Taneb> But first I must get an early night so I can travel 400 miles tomorrow and still have time to find a place to live
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00:22:28 <__kerbal___> Disregard the __kerbal__ account with only 4 underscores; that's me running on a different computer
00:23:04 <__kerbal___> That, if my hunch is correct, I cannot close right now as I am not nearby
00:25:53 <oerjan> __kerbal__: do you have any comment on this usurpation?
00:27:02 <oerjan> __kerbal___: /msg nickserv ghost __kerbal__
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00:51:54 <oerjan> __kerbal__: you might try `url wisdom instead.
00:52:09 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom
00:52:39 <__kerbal__> Ok, thanks. You must be reading the logs
00:53:11 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arc-nemesis is Kitty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:54:26 <HackEgo> Eyes and ears and mouth and nose...
00:57:17 <__kerbal__> `wisdom /̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞ @ 11050:a4fc5115efcf
00:58:41 <HackEgo> Relearned 'in': In CCCP, esolangs create YOU!
00:59:12 <__kerbal__> Now prepositions have fallen to the communists
01:01:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'alercah': alercah is a person
01:02:36 <shachaf> Please stop abusing the bot.
01:02:49 <shachaf> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
01:03:32 <HackEgo> 1298) <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny.
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01:07:12 <__kerbal___> shachaf: I will use more discretion in the future
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01:09:11 <oerjan> __kerbal__: we have a policy that permanent changes to HackEgo must be done in public.
01:09:32 <__kerbal__> I apologize. I thought that I was sparing you all from bot spam
01:09:46 <shachaf> In order to make you retroactively adhere to that policy, I was forced to make those changes nonpermanent.
01:10:11 <oerjan> that's a good idea for _reading_ HackEgo stuff, but we like to keep a bit track of what's changing.
01:11:27 <oerjan> and making so many changes to HackEgo that you'd be worried about spamming isn't a good idea either
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01:13:28 <shachaf> To be fair, spamming with HackEgo is a popular activity.
01:13:35 <shachaf> There's even a command for it.
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01:18:22 <oerjan> <alercah> for school? <-- for work, as i recall
01:19:27 <__kerbal__> `wisdom alercah has wanted a wisdom entry, evidently
01:19:42 <__kerbal__> `? alercah has wanted a wisdom entry, evidently
01:19:44 <HackEgo> alercah has wanted a wisdom entry, evidently? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:19:53 <__kerbal__> `learn alercah has wanted a wisdom entry, evidently
01:19:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'alercah': alercah has wanted a wisdom entry, evidently
01:21:07 <shachaf> you can't always get what you want
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01:31:27 <oerjan> `le/rn newbie of the month//Newbie of the Month is a traditional #esoteric position. Benefits include gentle mentoring, like having shachaf revert all your wisdom additions.
01:31:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'newbie of the month': Newbie of the Month is a traditional #esoteric position. Benefits include gentle mentoring, like having shachaf revert all your wisdom additions.
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02:09:58 <HackEgo> 1/1:turing//Turing is what you are doing when you Tur. \ the u//The U are a very mad people. \ csv//CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values \ oren's font//\oren\'s font neoletters is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm \ lachine//Unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo.
02:10:08 <shachaf> oerjan: One of those was a wisdom replacement.
02:10:12 <HackEgo> In 1492 Jesus sailed the ocean blue.
02:10:22 <HackEgo> 11053:2017-06-29 <shachäf> revert 11027 \ 11051:2017-06-28 <__kerbal_̈_> learn In CCCP, esolangs create YOU! \ 10539:2017-03-28 <shachäf> slwd in//s/Columbus/Jesus/ \ 7445:2016-04-17 <b_jonäs> learn In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. \ 7444:2016-04-17 <b_jonäs> learn In your dreams, sucker!
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02:31:42 <oerjan> what i just missed boily
02:32:43 <shachaf> obscunguage hellomanteau averted
02:33:03 <oerjan> `slwd lachine//s,U,Lachine is an u,
02:33:05 <HackEgo> lachine//Lachine is an unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo.
02:34:18 <oerjan> `learn In just a few months, you may be able to apply `learn properly.
02:34:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'in': In just a few months, you may be able to apply `learn properly.
02:36:51 <oerjan> also, i have been too lazy to find obscure languanteaus for a while.
02:37:11 <shachaf> that didn't work as intended tdnh
02:38:04 <oerjan> what did you intend, a quick kickban?
02:39:07 <oerjan> that wouldn't be abusing my op powers tdnh
02:39:56 <oerjan> irssi has a command for quickbans, i forgot what it was called.
02:40:16 <oerjan> of course it's not that quick when i need to get ops first.
02:40:36 <oerjan> (and also keep them until the ban expires)
02:42:27 <shachaf> you can get it to auto-op you when you use an op command, and auto-unop when you haven't used one for some duration
02:53:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52331&oldid=52313 * Qwertyu63 * (+2229)
02:54:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52332&oldid=52331 * Qwertyu63 * (+68)
02:58:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52333&oldid=52332 * Qwertyu63 * (+256)
02:58:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52334&oldid=52333 * Qwertyu63 * (-7)
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03:06:11 <shachaf> Cale: One time I made a LISP macro cr that could be used as (cr addad x)
03:06:22 <shachaf> Also the whole cadadr thing is a scow convention.
03:07:21 <shachaf> I suppose it describes a path in a binary tree, from right to left.
03:08:00 <Cale> yeah, it's just a really bizarre way to write a binary string
03:09:08 <shachaf> "hash consing" is a scow name imo
03:09:23 <shachaf> I think they're pretty neat.
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03:43:44 <Cale> I've never been a huge fan of data structures which rely on incomprehensibility
03:43:54 <Cale> They are neat in their own way though
03:44:08 <Cale> I just... find it hard to trust them very much
03:45:08 * oerjan pokes Cale with a finger tree
03:47:36 <shachaf> Do you mean that you can't tell much about x from H(x)?
04:01:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52335&oldid=52334 * Qwertyu63 * (+156)
04:03:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52336&oldid=52335 * Qwertyu63 * (-58)
04:06:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52337&oldid=52336 * Qwertyu63 * (+4)
04:08:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52338&oldid=52337 * Qwertyu63 * (-42)
04:08:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52339&oldid=52338 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
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12:54:47 <wob_jonas> the non-esoteric language website http://python.org is down
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13:37:54 <wob_jonas> do you happen to know anything about the computational power of StackFlow with only a limited number of stacks (two or three) but an unlimited number of symbols?
13:38:20 <ais523> not offhand; I know it doesn't need very many stacks to be TC (single digits), but don't know what the precise minimum number is
13:39:09 <ais523> the cyclic tag interpreter uses six stacks, one of which is used purely for I/O and thus doesn't affect Turing-completeness
13:39:16 <ais523> so the necessary number is ≤ 5
13:39:21 <ais523> also we know it can't be TC with 1 stack
13:39:50 <wob_jonas> or also the computational power of a machine with two stacks, an unlimited number of symbols, such that if you pop the second stack then the core state is a function of the popped symbol (like in StackFlow) but if you pop the first stack then the core state is a function of the pair of the previous state and the popped symbol (like in a normal mult
13:40:17 <ais523> you might be interested in The Amnesiac From Minsk, which is basically the same idea but for counters
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13:41:00 <wob_jonas> hmm... I'll try to re-read how that works, but here I'm not trying to limit the number of (tape/stack) symbols
13:42:16 <ais523> I assume you have some application in mind for this?
13:43:14 <wob_jonas> I'm trying to invent an esolang that so far I can only prove turing-complete because it can simulate a two-stack machine (not a stack-flow one, but one with proper persistent state for both stacks),
13:43:31 <wob_jonas> but I'm trying to figure out if there are other ways to prove it turing-complete
13:43:38 <ais523> huh, actually I'm reminded a lot of Incident too
13:43:42 <ais523> (not the silly parsing stuff but the data storage)
13:45:25 <wob_jonas> using the two stacks isn't a practical way to write programs, I know a much more practical way, only that one might not be Turing-complete technically, because even though I can random access lots of memory that way (the amount of memory grows very quickly in the size of the program), I'm not sure I can access an unbounded amount of memory with a f
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13:59:16 <ais523> you could use the stacks to store a single counter with multiply and divide operations; that gives you the infinite storage you need
13:59:25 <ais523> and then only use it when you absolutely had to
13:59:46 <ais523> in fact, you can use one stack to store the counter, using the other as a temporary to multiply and divide it
13:59:56 <ais523> and use the other for whatever you like, except in the middle of a multiply/divide operaiton
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14:07:10 <wob_jonas> ah, trying to reduce to a counter machine. might work.
14:14:51 <ais523> you could alternatively use both as a tape, but then you wouldn't be able to use them for other things too
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16:48:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52340&oldid=52339 * Qwertyu63 * (+143)
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18:11:20 <shachaf> oerjan: whoops, meant to oerjan++ yesterday but forgot
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20:10:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: four stacks for StackFlow are enough for Turing-completeness, and you don't even need counter machines for that
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21:46:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zeryx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52341 * Conor O'Brien * (+2365) Created page with "'''Zeryx''' is a simple language designed by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. Suppose a program in this language is referred to as '''S'''. '''N''' starts at 0. Then, the commands of..."
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01:37:56 <HackEgo> swatter//The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles.
01:44:33 <HackEgo> 1/1:alogl//ALOGL is a logarithmic language. \ zork//Zork is like York, except for the first letter. Uaneb invented it. \ stalagmyte//A stalagmyte is eight stalagmits \ il//An il is a cohelix of pper wire.
01:47:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:rhenium//Rhenium is a precious metal. It can be found nowhere in Earth because the Enemy has used up all of it for forging the One Ring. \ vorpal//Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones. \ sbeef//Sbeef is the culinary name for meat from scow. \ homophone//Homophones are pairs of words that sound totally gay together. \ heff
01:47:58 <HackEgo> 2/2:alump//A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
01:52:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52342&oldid=52340 * Qwertyu63 * (-15)
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02:22:19 <quintopia> rhenium is a pretty terrible wisdom
02:22:47 <quintopia> Borderlands TPS finished downloading :P
02:23:51 <boily> I don't know where I'll be this weekend...
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02:38:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52343&oldid=52342 * Qwertyu63 * (+138)
02:42:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52344 * Qwertyu63 * (+2913) Created page with "'''Triple Threat''' (hereafter TT) is a stack-based esolang. Every command modifies and juggles the numbers in one or two of three stacks. Each stack is capable of different a..."
02:45:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52345&oldid=50526 * Qwertyu63 * (+65)
02:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52346&oldid=52343 * Qwertyu63 * (-2819) Replaced content with "Languages I've written:<br /> * Writer and implementer of [[Stack Up]]. * Writer of [[Set]]; article and interpreter by Matheus Avellar. * Writer of [[Emoji-gramming]]. *..."
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03:38:45 <zzo38> Did you see this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14634926 It is some thing with mathematics, everyone start same money and each step give one piece of money to someone else at random. What do you think is the distribution going to be?
03:50:42 <Cale> I would expect something like a 1/x distribution
03:52:04 <Cale> Maybe something a bit fatter than that... I dunno
03:57:26 <zzo38> What is 1/x distribution?
03:58:27 <Cale> Like the graph of 1/x
03:59:07 <Cale> (scaled somehow, and obviously discretized)
04:01:14 <shachaf> zzo38 did not strike me as the sort of person who comments on news.ycombinator.com
04:01:40 <Cale> shachaf, why are you so obsessed over where conversations are taking place? :)
04:02:16 <shachaf> Cale: Me? You're the one who's obsessed with it!
04:03:09 <shachaf> Cale is always all, like, whoa, dude, why're you talking in #esoteric instead of ##categorytheory, man?
04:04:46 <Cale> Yeah, but the reason I ask is because you moved the conversation here :)
04:05:01 <Cale> as if you're trying to avoid talking in the other channel
04:05:27 <Cale> (when you were obviously listening there)
04:05:57 <Cale> zzo38: Apparently the correct name for what I was thinking of is "Pareto distribution"
04:06:29 <Cale> (at least, if you think of it as a probability distribution)
04:07:06 <shachaf> The reason is that some person gets an advantage randomly, but then they continue giving away a constant amount, rather than a percentage of their money, so it doesn't get reduced by as much?
04:07:21 <shachaf> They still have as much of a chance of getting a given dollar as before, but they aren't giving away as much.
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04:14:24 <shachaf> I have the following problem: I get some structured data every so often, and I want a user interface that can show the result of various queries run over it.
04:14:55 <shachaf> Say the queries are SQL-ish, though I don't know what the query language is exactly.
04:15:15 <shachaf> The queries are user-provided but stay relatively constant. On the other hand, the data changes all the time.
04:15:25 <shachaf> This is kind of backwards from a typical database.
04:15:33 <shachaf> Is there a tool for this sort of thing?
04:15:45 <shachaf> Or a library that can be used to implement it?
04:15:52 <zzo38> I don't know, although I have wanted to be able to do such thing with SQLite
04:16:40 <zzo38> (In SQLite, if using remote data, this might be done by implementing a virtual table, but you say you do not know what the query language is exactly, so that can't help.)
04:16:48 <shachaf> Also it's a user interface so maybe I want it to be in JavaScript?
04:17:10 <zzo38> No I think SQL would be better
04:17:14 <shachaf> To be clear, all the old data is dropped when new data arrives. The queries are run exactly once over the new data, say every second.
04:17:34 <shachaf> SQL is fine but the UI might be written in JavaScript.
04:24:20 <zzo38> I suppose you could. I probably would have used C, and then interfacing it with SQLite, implementing perhaps a virtual table module to retrieve the data. However, many thing you fail to mention, including, do you need the data to be plotted on a graph, or just a text, or both, and where does the data come from, and so on? What you need depend on many thing I think
04:24:37 <shachaf> Ideally, all the queries can be computed in one or two passes over the data.
04:25:17 <shachaf> For example many of the queries are summing different things. All the partial sums can be kept as state when iterating over the data once.
04:26:41 <zzo38> Well, SQLite can do most of these optimizations automatically (although some are missing; it cannot keep state across different queries for example).
04:26:58 <shachaf> select sum(x) from foo; select type, sum(x) from foo group by type;
04:27:13 <shachaf> The thing is that there are a lot of queries but only one copy of the data.
04:36:02 <shachaf> Do you like Rice's theorem?
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06:27:55 <shachaf> @tell hppavilion[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULa9Lc4pck
06:30:27 <Cale> shachaf: That problem sounds like what most of our application backends look like
06:30:53 <shachaf> Non-video link: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/165225
06:31:11 <shachaf> Cale: Are these user-supplied queries, though?
06:31:18 <shachaf> I don't know what your application is.
06:31:36 <Cale> shachaf: I really want a database which is designed around that kind of interaction: you register queries with the backend, and get notified any time a transaction commits which affects the results of a registered query, with the changed rows.
06:32:33 <shachaf> Cale: Well, this problem is different because the old data is thrown away all the time, so there's no reuse possible.
06:32:54 <shachaf> But I think this is one of the things RethinkDB was trying to do?
06:32:54 <Cale> shachaf: Well, our web applications generally have a notion of a "view selector", which is typically a big record containing a bunch of Maps expressing what data the frontend wants to display to the user, and those get delivered via websockets to the backend
06:32:58 <shachaf> https://www.rethinkdb.com/
06:33:27 <shachaf> (I was involved with RethinkDB but that was years before they added these features.)
06:33:36 <Cale> and then the backend sends back views, which are similarly structured collections of Maps containing (patches against) the data that was requested
06:34:31 <shachaf> I also saw this post about it, so who knows: http://blog.sagemath.com/2017/02/09/rethinkdb-vs-postgres.html
06:35:16 <Cale> We're using postgresql's LISTEN/NOTIFY
06:36:48 <Cale> Does rethink support queries that are similar to what is expressible with SQL?
06:37:42 <shachaf> The post I linked to compares the two (that person migrated sagemath from rethinkdb to postgresql and found the latter much better for their purpose).
06:39:42 <Cale> Not that I particularly love SQL -- I'd really like to have an easy way to express sum types
06:39:49 <Cale> (and express queries against them)
06:41:14 <shachaf> fizzie: I can't remember what [redacted] does about sum types and SQL-like languages, but I think there may have been something? Do you think there exists a good query language that supports sum types well?
06:41:50 <Cale> It bothers me that nobody bothered to put in a way to say "this column contains a primary key of table A, B, or C, and the information about which it is"
06:43:03 <Cale> You always end up representing A + B as (1 + A)*(1 + B) in some fashion, because that's 1 + (A + B) + A*B, but accidents which result in 1 or A*B being stored are among the worst kinds of bug you can have.
06:43:48 <Cale> (the kind where when your application screws up, it can involve humans making many phone calls to repair the damage)
06:45:24 <shachaf> Can't you express that constraint in postgres?
06:47:46 <Cale> You might be able to do something with an ugly trigger.
06:48:04 <Cale> Or were you thinking of something else?
06:49:21 <Cale> (also using two columns)
06:51:14 <shachaf> create table foo (x int, y int, z int, check ((x is not null::int) + (y is not null::int) + (z is not null::int) = 1));
06:52:52 <Cale> That's a cute way of expressing it
06:53:05 <Cale> I wonder how much it affects performance
06:53:10 <shachaf> Well, however you express it, the point is that it's a boolean expression that you can put into check.
06:53:35 <Cale> Well, really what I want is for the invalid options to be inexpressible :P
06:54:09 <shachaf> I imagine it shouldn't affect performance much?
06:54:25 <shachaf> Sure, but a runtime check will save you those painful phone calls.
06:54:43 <Cale> That is true :)
06:56:29 <shachaf> Aha, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15178859/postgres-constraint-ensuring-one-column-of-many-is-present
06:56:58 <shachaf> Looks like someone has done this before.
06:59:24 <Cale> Usually what ends up happening, which doesn't actually solve the problem, but makes it harder to make the same mistake, and is nicer to write individual queries against, is whenever you would have had (A + B + C) * X, instead having three separate tables for A * X, B * X, and C * X, respectively. This doesn't scale very well if you have more than one sum type though.
07:00:27 <Cale> Well, it sort of kind of solves the problem, anyway
07:01:50 <Cale> But also if you do that, it perverts the types you use to discuss your data over in Haskell land, in a way which isn't very nice.
07:02:02 <Cale> (typically, anyway)
07:02:43 <Cale> Unless you take pains to do an extra translation away from what's actually stored in the DB -- you'll typically do a little of that, but it's more work then.
07:03:33 <Cale> It's like this little problem that gradually makes a lot of code a whole bunch shittier than it otherwise could be
07:04:06 <Cale> Maybe when the concat stuff that Ryan's been working on is ready, that will kill this bird as well.
07:04:46 <Cale> He's been working on a way to translate Haskell code to SQL queries via Conal's constrained categories thing
07:05:32 <Cale> ... because we also have the problem that we end up expressing all our queries both in SQL and then again in Haskell, and it's nearly always a bug if they don't agree.
07:12:53 <lambdabot> LOWI 300550Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW010 SCT180 12/10 Q1011 NOSIG
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07:35:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 300620Z 09006KT CAVOK 18/05 Q1010 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 14010KT
07:40:49 <lambdabot> ESSB 300620Z 05016KT CAVOK 19/08 Q1002
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08:13:40 <lambdabot> shachaf said 1h 45m 44s ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULa9Lc4pck
08:14:21 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Ah, seen it, like it. What was the context for this again?
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08:36:16 <oerjan> raptor jesus http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/
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09:20:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52348&oldid=51642 * Vorpal * (-2) /* Befunge-98 and beyond */ Update URL for cfunge
09:30:50 <oerjan> oh Vorpal managed to log on
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10:59:28 <zzo38> I can see all of the SMART attribute values in my computer, but what am I supposed to do with these numbers? It reports a worst temperature of 50 and a current value of 33; what numbers are normally expected? Attribute 9 (Power_On_Hours) has normalized value 1, which is close to the threshold of 0 (but not quite); is this supposed to be of any concern? There are errors such as "Error 341 occurred at disk power-on lifetime: 21029 hours (876 days + 5
11:02:18 <zzo38> No failures are reported though.
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11:20:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: four stacks are enough for Turing-completeness in StackFlow
11:20:55 <wob_jonas> and you don't even need counter (Minsky) machines or exponential time loss for that
11:21:06 <ais523> is this an existence proof or a constructive proof?
11:22:32 <wob_jonas> Consider a machine with two stacks and two symbols available for the stacks, such that underflowing the stack isn't allowed, but you can have any number of states. This is Turing-complete, because you can compile an ordinary two-stack machine down to it by representing symbols as multiple symbols.
11:24:21 <wob_jonas> We want to compile this to StackFlow with four stacks. Stacks 1 and 2 in the StackFlow host simulate the two stacks of the guest in a straightforward way. Stacks 3 and 4 normally store garbage that we can't clean up.
11:26:16 <wob_jonas> For stack 3 and 4, have an alphabet that has one symbol for each state of the guest. When the guest wants to push to a stack, the host just pushes. When the guest wants to pop, the host first push the two possible next states of the guest to stacks 3 and 4, then pop the corresponding stack of the host.
11:26:44 <wob_jonas> The host has a rule that when 0 is popped from stack 1 or 2, you pop stack 3, and if 1 is popped from stack 1 or 2, you pop stack 4.
11:27:34 <ais523> you're basically just using stacks 3 and 4 as variables
11:27:40 <ais523> where only the top element matters
11:27:43 <ais523> to remember what you're doing
11:28:28 <wob_jonas> I don't yet know what StackFlow with two or three stacks can do.
11:34:21 <ais523> that said, I wonder how many states your 4-StackFlow example needs for TCness
11:34:31 <ais523> and how it compares to Magic's creature types
11:34:38 <ais523> (I'm aware the existing construction is slightly broken…)
11:35:15 <wob_jonas> it needs as many symbols for stack 3 and stack 4 as the original has states
11:35:44 <wob_jonas> and... um, where's that list of how many symbols and states can do universal Turing machines?
11:35:56 <wob_jonas> we can create starting elements in the stack for free in this construction
11:36:09 <HackEgo> universal turing machine? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:38:22 <wob_jonas> 15 states and 2 symbols for a Turing-machine are supposedly enough. with an end of tape marker symbol you can turn that to... um, about 30 states and 3 symbols for a two-stack machine if underflowing stacks isn't allowed,
11:38:54 <wob_jonas> then with a double symbol representation you turn that to about 90 states and 2 symbols for a two-stack machine,
11:39:21 <wob_jonas> you can probably do it with fewer with smarter constructions
11:41:15 <wob_jonas> hmm, even 60 states should be enough if you go from 3 symbols to 2 symbols
11:43:10 <ais523> you could do something minimax-like, where you determine the bottom of the stacks "in software"
11:43:18 <ais523> rather than needing a separate state to represent it
11:44:10 <wob_jonas> sure, but then you'd have to construct a new small universal machine (tape or stack) from scratch, rather than just use the existing hard results about small universal Turing-machines
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11:50:34 <wob_jonas> it might be the easiest to start from a universal tape machine that needs an infinite periodic pattern on the tape, since a periodic pattern is cheap to create from end markers in a two-symbol stack machine
11:51:13 <wob_jonas> but I can't do calculations for that, because I don't know how long the periodic pattern is, and it does consume states in the stack machine
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15:11:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52349&oldid=52282 * Qwertyu63 * (+30)
15:12:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52350&oldid=41661 * B jonas * (+2380)
15:15:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: for the M:tG simulation, the other Alex's construction also uses Noxious Ghoul and Rotlung Reanimator. Does it also have the same bug as your construction? If not, I should find out how he avoids the bug; if not, we should mail him a question.
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15:17:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: it tells the players to do stacking order explicitly
15:17:31 <ais523> rather than trying to force it via the game rules
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15:47:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: but... isn't that cheating?
15:47:22 <wob_jonas> not in the M:tG sense, but for the construction
15:47:41 <ais523> IMO yes, that's why I wanted a construction with no player choices
15:47:58 <wob_jonas> ok, I should probably just forget the original construction
15:58:27 <wob_jonas> The proof mentions Elixir of Immortality, and I was wondering what was the older tech (say before Coldsnap) for recycing all cards from your graveyard to your library, and whether you needed some horrific slow combo for it. Apparently it's Reminisce, from Onslaught.
15:59:04 <wob_jonas> I mean reshuffling all cards without losing any cards or other resources. There are a lot of ways to reshuffle only creatures, or reshuffle in exchange for exiling one card.
15:59:49 <Taneb> Not programming but have you guys seen http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/
16:00:01 <Taneb> Similar idea of Magic exploits
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16:32:59 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, I know about that. And I hear if you use similar game rules but don't restrict to a cube that tries to make such combos hard, then you can get MUCH bigger loops.
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17:37:46 <* Taneb> tries to find a place to live in Cambridge
17:39:25 <fizzie> Want me to ask a former Cambridge-er?
17:39:38 <Taneb> I think I've found something
17:39:42 <Taneb> But thanks for the offer
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17:40:40 <fizzie> I thought the river in Cambridge was pretty nice.
17:40:43 <fizzie> Full of people though.
17:41:23 <Taneb> It's certainly picturesque
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17:57:49 <\oren\> 2001, a space oddysey: first there a black rectangle after that there'a a bunch of monkees and then a spaceship and then more spaceship for a while, and after that a weird old man who becomes a mutant baby, the end
18:02:08 <z0d> what about HAL?
18:02:31 <z0d> and the guys who found the monolith and got lost?
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18:34:39 <Taneb> Really beginning to feel like an Adult
18:35:31 <boily> Tanelle. are you wearing a necktie? do you fill your own taxes? do you listen to Top40 radio? what is an adult?
18:36:39 <Taneb> boily, no, I don't think anyone in the UK who's not self-employed does, I listen to BBC Radio 4 so maybe I've got that one beat, don't know
18:42:25 <int-e> filling taxes, hmm.
18:42:43 <int-e> boily: an adult is an expert in adulery, I always thought.
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19:00:05 <zzo38> How will my method for encoding a Huffman table compare with that used in DEFLATE?
19:00:50 <zzo38> (It might depend on how it encodes numbers, which is the part that I did not specify.)
19:07:49 <\oren\> someone should make a new centralized VCS and call it eht, to come after svn
19:21:21 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, you have a new method for encoding a Huffman table? when was that?
19:21:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: different from DEFLATE and jpeg and other (more modern) compressed formats?
19:22:34 <pikhq> Note that encoding a Huffman *table* is just the small bit telling you what the table is, without any actual data.
19:22:52 <pikhq> Most specs using Huffman encoding use somewhat different mechanisms.
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19:29:08 <zzo38> My method has the property that a prefix of any sufficiently long sequence of bits will encode a valid Huffman table, and that the encoding is bijective (you are guaranteed to get the same bits if you decode and then reencode the same Huffman table; if you alter the Huffman table it will change though)
19:32:54 <zzo38> You have a number of remaining 62-bit codes, which is initially 2^62. Every time a code length is transmitted, this value is reduced by 2^(62-n) if n is the code length transmitted; is used to determine which code lengths are still valid.
19:35:05 <zzo38> Code a 1 bit followed by a number to encode a used symbol, where the number is the index into the MRU list of code lengths. If the number exceeds the code lengths in use, then they are ascending numbers, and all of them up to and including the chosen code length are put into beginning of MRU list in reverse order; otherwise it is a normal MRU list.
19:35:54 <zzo38> Code a 0 bit followed by a number to specify that many unused symbols; if there are remaining symbols needed, the index into the MRU list is coded next without an intervening 1 bit.
19:36:17 <zzo38> Numbers have a minimum value of 1 and a maximum value that varies.
19:38:15 <zzo38> Since the number of remaining 62-bit codes has to be zero at the end, this can be used to decide how many further unused symbols are possible, and when near the end what code lengths may still be in use too. If no further unused symbols are possible, the intervening 1 bit is not needed, and if the maximum value of a number is 1, the number is encoded with no bits.
19:38:38 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That is how it is work; can you understand them now?
19:46:47 <zzo38> It may be helpful to initialize the MRU list, although I am unsure.
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19:54:17 <zzo38> The other thing to consider is if, due to the kind of data expected to be encoded, it might help to alter the order of the symbols rather than just 0 to 255 or whatever.
20:04:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't think I followed that because I don't really remember how Huffman tables are supposed to work, but ok
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20:09:11 <zzo38> They are code lengths as number of bits needed to encode that symbol. For example, if you have input with three symbols A, B, C, and if A is much more common than B and C, then you might encode A as "0", B as "10", and C as "11".
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20:11:30 <zzo38> That is how Huffman codes are working.
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20:17:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52351&oldid=50895 * B jonas * (+92)
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20:48:28 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: If you are still on in a few hours, I might bring Integbot online so that you can finally see how user-defined functions work
20:49:07 <__kerbal__> I'm not in a place where I can do it right now, though
21:03:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zayne * New user account
21:07:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52352&oldid=52285 * Zayne * (+164) /* Introductions */
21:08:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52353&oldid=33573 * Zayne * (+186) adding my interpreter
21:08:13 <wob_jonas> kerbal: ok, if you do bring it up, please try int-e's quine and put it on the wiki
21:08:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52354 * Zayne * (+42) Created page with "I made the Hello Interpreter in Python 3.5"
21:14:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52355&oldid=45181 * Zayne * (+275)
21:17:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52356&oldid=51054 * Zayne * (+169) /* Interpreters */
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21:26:19 <__kerbal__> So, I've been thinking about making Integ's sister language Floateg
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21:27:08 <__kerbal__> Floateg would have a continuous non-discrete tape, where explicitly provided values define a piecewise curve
21:28:13 <__kerbal__> In this way, you can have non-integer addresses; Floateg would figure out what value a non-provided address should have
21:31:12 <__kerbal__> For instance, if you wrote 0 to address 0 and 1 to address 1, address 0.5 would be computed as 0.5.
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22:02:41 <\oren\> BJARNE STROUSTRUP made the output formatting in ostream STATEFUL meaning that after any long operation you have to reset it
22:02:45 <\oren\> HE IS THE WORST INCOMPETENT ASSHOLE IN ALL THE HISTORY OF COMPUTER SCIENCE
22:04:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, and that's just one of the multiple stupid problems the C++ standard library formatted IO has
22:04:57 <wob_jonas> \oren\: however, from looking at various languages, I think that designing a good formatted IO library is REALLY hard, there are very few times anyone has succeeded in it,
22:05:16 <wob_jonas> so Bjarne isn't really incompetent compared to other language designers.
22:05:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I happen to like C's printf and scanf.
22:06:11 <shachaf> It's convenient but not type-safe.
22:06:46 <wob_jonas> And unlike many old designs, printf/scanf has become better as the language aged, because now compilers can check the types for you at compile time (unless you use a dynamic format spec).
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22:21:30 <ais523> <wob_jonas> shachaf: I happen to like C's printf and scanf. ← I've seen someone argue to me on reddit that printfalikes are in general a really large security hole, and I'm not convinced I disagree
22:21:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think they're a security hole only if people use variable format specs
22:22:24 <wob_jonas> ideally a printf-like should have as easy syntax as printf, but the format string and type of arguments should be checked at compile time
22:22:31 <ais523> they were also implicated as a common vector for the recent stack overlap exploit
22:22:49 <wob_jonas> rust's printf macros do the compile time checking right, but fail horribly in most other respects
22:22:49 <ais523> OCaml has a printf close to what you describe, IIRC
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22:24:05 <\oren\> all it really needs is to do something like
22:24:25 <\oren\> cout.print(some_double);
22:24:42 <\oren\> and then have precision etc as optional argumnets
22:25:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no no no, a template string is usually a better idea than that (though you could have something like that as a backend exposed in the api)
22:25:26 <\oren\> or if you have a hardon for operator overloading, use operato()
22:26:32 <zzo38> The PRINTF() SQL function in SQLite will check that the format is OK; it will only do this if you call it as a SQL function though
22:28:01 <wob_jonas> when you print several values together (which often happens), the template syntax is much shorter and thus more readable, which is great. in C++ stdlib, which doesn't use a template string, people (including me) often make the mistake of forgetting to print a separator between two values,
22:28:39 <wob_jonas> because in all the verbose cout << "pos=(" << setprecision(6) << obj.position.x[0] << "," << obj.position.x[1] << ")," nonsense, you don't notice that you've forgotten a << " " << somewhere. the result is running a program for two hours, then noticing that you can't use the output because two numbers are printed directly ran together.
22:29:21 <wob_jonas> (This is a problem even if the formatting state set by setprecision and similar isn't persistent.)
22:29:57 <wob_jonas> Whereas if you write printf("pos=(%.6g,%.6g)", verbose stuff here, then you are much less likely to forget a separator
22:30:39 <shachaf> C++11 variadic templates are TG
22:33:44 <wob_jonas> Luckily most languages these days are sane enough that none of this stuff is built in. In C++, you can just use printf, or write a new output library, rather than use the C++ stdlib stream output functions. In rust too, you could write better printf macros, and I hope someone will (and I might try myself, but there are certain difficulties).
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23:07:28 <__kerbal__> I don't think that I am going to be able to activate Integbot tonight, but there's a slight possibility of it, I guess
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23:12:29 <shachaf> Can you write type-safe printf with C++ templates?
23:13:30 <alercah> but only if the format string is constant of course
23:13:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in modern enough C++, yes.
23:14:03 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the problem is that in older C++, you can't read the template string at compile time
23:16:27 <\oren\> you could do it with C macros
23:17:26 <\oren\> it would jsut ahve to have some arbitrary limit on number of inputs
23:18:37 <alercah> you couldn't parse the string out though still
23:19:09 <alercah> you'd have to do something weird like FMT_STRING("foo", FMT_STRING_VAR, "bar")
23:19:46 <alercah> and if you allow that then you could do the same with just variadic templates in C++ I think
23:19:58 <alercah> (or non-variadic ones up to a fixed length)
23:20:28 <\oren\> actually hold on, I have an idea: suppose that format strings were not just string
23:20:43 <\oren\> instead, like in Fortran, have a format object
23:21:14 <\oren\> that you initialize using a string
23:22:39 <\oren\> cout << mkformat("apples % oranges %") << 2 << 5;
23:24:05 <alercah> \oren\: you can't do that type safely though
23:24:46 <alercah> you need to get the string into the arguments to a template and by far the easiest way is via user-defined literals
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