00:11:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magic-1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52357 * B jonas * (+4121) Created page with "'''Magic-1''' is a unique home-built microcomputer with a custom CPU. It was designed and developped mainly by Bill Buzbee. The hardware was built between 2005 and 2006, the..."
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00:15:41 <__kerbal__> ;integ 8096373705231173873515698288105814457559349996780213465927102169635143836763371455511239714251901656919412172053510347251766358525837584663686083361012968763343440510359069137201087033274943221529093137894442823663461959335745044107344)](125)](40)](41)](40)~(?({(@()))(1)())(}(+(1)(@()))(/({(@()))(10)))~(?(@())(1)())(_(@())](+(48)(%({(@()))(10))))~(](+(37)(%({())(90)))/(1)(}()(/({())(90))))()
00:19:08 <__kerbal__> int-e: I couldn't get your Integ quine to work for some reason. Maybe I have the wrong link
00:20:04 <__kerbal__> Did you do it in the standalone interpreter? If so, a glitch may be preventing it from working
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00:34:31 <HackEgo> olist 1078: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
00:35:07 <Sgeo__> Good day. New OOTS + understanding Rust well enough to do a thing I've wanted to do for years in Rust
00:41:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52358&oldid=52320 * Kerbal * (+81)
00:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52359&oldid=52358 * Kerbal * (+0)
00:42:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52360&oldid=52359 * Kerbal * (+0)
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00:59:02 <__kerbal__> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie."
00:59:32 <alercah> `addquote <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie."
00:59:34 <HackEgo> 1313) <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie."
00:59:45 <alercah> `addquote <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie." <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
00:59:47 <HackEgo> 1313) <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie." <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
01:05:56 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1313s,l,l__,
01:05:59 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
01:06:08 <HackEgo> 1313) <__kerbal__> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie." <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
01:06:56 <oerjan> __kerbal__: i don't generally use that style of spelling hth
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01:25:04 <oerjan> i also have principles against claims expressed with "should" hth
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01:26:12 <shachaf> oerjan: see http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/epistemologicalNightmare.html hth
01:28:48 <shachaf> there's a discussion of the word "should" around halfway through hth
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01:30:52 <oerjan> my haziness prevents me from reading that far, especially since i've already read (at least some of) that before and find it grating.
01:37:23 <__kerbal__> " Really? It doesn't even seem that it seems red to me? It sure seems like it seems like it seems red to me!"
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01:53:11 <quintopia> oerjan: do you have the same aversion to "shouldn't"?
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02:08:30 <fizzie> Just so you know, the upcoming fungot outage is due to a planned maintenance window.
02:08:31 <fungot> fizzie: you get too far as i could, but we need to get that " video games, but
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02:09:17 <fizzie> (And the quit message is because it's running through a bouncer to work around the "can't reconnect automatically" misfeature.)
02:12:42 <oerjan> same bouncer that Gregor uses, it seems.
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02:13:31 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling okay?
02:13:31 <fungot> fizzie: fnord i've always had a studly soundcard ( gus?) or something. :p))
02:13:37 <fizzie> I guess as okay as always.
02:15:09 <fizzie> We had a company summer party thing, two people asked about the fungot shirt again.
02:15:10 <fungot> fizzie: also lisp in general). they were the start of the isr to the right? i.e. is the eip value?
02:15:53 <shachaf> What does fungot need a soundcard for, let alone a studly one?
02:15:53 <fungot> shachaf: it would get bigger in time and attach a debugger and hack it a bit
02:18:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: it contains several esolang puzzles in it this year!
02:18:33 <ais523> you can't normally expect fungot to meaningfully answer your question
02:18:33 <fungot> ais523: your mind suddenly finds your dumb mistakes. i've never used scheme for software development and therefore know nothing about astronomy?
02:19:03 <__kerbal__> But, in all seriousness, where would you get one?
02:19:20 <ais523> there are companies who'll make arbitrary T-shirts for you, I'm sure they'd be willing to make a fungot shirt
02:19:20 <fungot> ais523: tough to find wooden shoes in portland, oregon.
02:20:02 <fungot> __kerbal__: you haven't seen it. i've done quite a lot of stupid in learning, the wheat/ chaff split is being able to load that. page. :p
02:21:21 <fizzie> __kerbal__: ais523: I got a free "print your own T-shirt" coupon from a thing for one of those companies, and used them.
02:24:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: i only occasionally glance at c.l.s to remind myself of how they all work fine.
02:24:51 <ais523> __kerbal__: markov chains
02:25:06 <fizzie> It's got https://zem.fi/tmp/fungot_shirt_front.png printed on it, except in theory the black part is transparent, on a naturally black shirt.
02:25:06 <fungot> fizzie: hmmm... a minikanren talk but no presentations by oleg? s pages first. eh.) period when 50 of the fnord swastika and the zen ss"
02:26:48 <fizzie> Couldn't fit all of it in and keep it readable, so it's just the babbling bit.
02:27:01 <Hoolootwo> hmm, I've seen that before, what is that code?
02:27:13 <fungot> fizzie: the c you can read the logs first
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02:34:31 <fizzie> I can definitely recommand https://rapanuiclothing.com/custom-printed-mens-t-shirts/ if you need a custom-printed shirt, the print quality was pretty nice. The process they use doesn't result in super-sharp lines, but it also doesn't look/feel like it's a sticker on top of the fabric.
02:42:07 <fizzie> Sure, that's maybe a more relevant recommendation for the other UKers.
02:42:30 <ais523> why does a UK company have a web page ending .com? :-(
02:44:09 <fizzie> Hwy, BBC's website redirected me to a .bbc.com URL today.
02:45:49 <fizzie> Normally it sticks to bbc.co.uk but for some settings it took me to account.bbc.com or some such.
02:46:35 <fizzie> (Thought I'd do that account setup since iPlayer keeps reminding me they'll make it mandatory sooner or later.)
02:50:04 <Hoolootwo> you can have any TLD you want, if the TLD allows it
02:53:01 <fizzie> I like the conventional .ac.uk names, they're often delightfully short.
02:53:24 <fizzie> ox.ac.uk, cam.ac.uk, shef.ac.uk and so on.
02:54:39 <fizzie> I had a coauthor with a @dcs.shef.ac.uk email. Very retro.
02:54:41 <ais523> my workplace was bham.ac.uk for ages
02:54:50 <ais523> but they decided to change to birmingham.ac.uk for some reason
02:54:56 <ais523> email is still bham.ac.uk, though, thankfully
02:57:03 <fizzie> Ours changed from hut.fi to tkk.fi (from the English to the Finnish abbreviation), and then to aalto.fi for the merging/rebranding. Maybe that's fair, can't really meaningfully shorten "aalto".
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03:00:34 <oerjan> . o O ( they were the same for ages, and then *BHAM* they changed )
03:01:27 <Hoolootwo> we used to have uiuc.edu but now we have illinois.edu which is annoying
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03:14:35 <zzo38> Sacrifice a permanent that is attached to ~: ~ deals damage to target creature or player equal to converted mana cost of sacrificed permanent.
03:21:26 <zzo38> It is the idea. Possibly also: You control all permanents that are attached to ~.
03:27:29 <ais523> zzo38: now I'm wondering how that second ability interacts with a Control Magic effect
03:28:05 <ais523> like, if I control a creature "You control all permanents that are attached to ~", and you cast an aura "You control enchanted creature" on it, who ends up controlling what?
03:30:40 <zzo38> It is a layer 2 effect. The effect with the earliest timestamp applies first. I think that the Aura will now be controlled by the same controller as "You control all permanents that are attached to ~" because the Aura has a later timestamp. (I don't know if there is a way using existing cards and this new one to reverse the order of the timestamps)
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09:27:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52361&oldid=52360 * Int-e * (+480) /* Quine */
09:29:26 <int-e> @tell __kerbal__ I've added the quine to the Integ page; the thing you tried was a mispaste of a 474 character quine (missing the first 80 characters) that turned out to be too long for IRC after all.
09:41:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52362&oldid=52354 * Zayne * (+118)
09:41:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52363&oldid=52362 * Zayne * (+12) /* Interpreters Made */
09:42:46 <oerjan> . o O ( you can't be Zayne, that's boily's job )
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09:48:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52364 * Zayne * (+767) Created page with "2017 is a programming language created by [[User:Zayne|Zayne]], loosely based off of 2014, it was made only to be used in the year 2017. If the year isn't 2017 then it will er..."
09:48:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2014]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52365&oldid=41562 * Zayne * (+23)
09:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52366&oldid=52364 * Zayne * (+6)
09:50:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52367&oldid=52363 * Zayne * (+60)
09:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52368&oldid=52366 * Zayne * (+2)
09:51:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52369&oldid=52368 * Zayne * (+0) /* See Also */
09:51:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2014]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52370&oldid=52365 * Zayne * (+2) /* See Also */
09:54:25 <int-e> I wonder, am I the only one who finds this wikipedia UI element confusing? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/active_tab%3f.png
09:58:37 <oerjan> i do sometimes use that to go to the current revision from an old one.
09:58:57 <Cale> int-e: It's weird when you consider it alongside the other tabstrip to the right
09:59:07 <oerjan> or from an edit page, or the like
10:00:21 <int-e> I do use it to get to the current page, but it takes me a conscious effort to recall that even though it looks like the rider of the currently displayed "tab", it really isn't.
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10:25:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hardfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52371 * Zayne * (+4354) Created page with "'''Hardfuck''' is a [[Brainfuck]] derivative created by [[User:Zayne|Zayne]] (why am I not surprised) and as the name suggests it is supposed to be harder than Brainfuck. == C..."
10:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52372&oldid=52367 * Zayne * (+17) /* My Esolangs (including jokes) */
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15:12:58 <__kerbal__> int-e: What version of the interpreter are you testing the quine with?
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15:17:36 <__kerbal__> Wait... I see. It's chopping off the end of the quine. Let me try the offline version
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16:15:03 <zzo38> What is the address of the "2017 server"? I made up a implementation of joke program language "2017", but it should need to specify the "2017 server"; currently it just uses localhost but it should be changed to the proper address of the server.
16:15:54 <myname> obviously, it has ipv4 address 2017
16:16:52 <ais523> 2.0.1.7 is a valid IPv4 address, but I have no idea who owns it
16:17:25 <zzo38> I just tried 2017, although now I tried 2.0.1.7 and that doesn't work either.
16:17:56 <ais523> perhaps there isn't such a server tey?
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16:18:07 <quintopia> just pick any server that returns the date and time
16:19:24 <zzo38> What is the address of the NIST server?
16:20:56 <zzo38> Thank you, it work
16:21:48 <quintopia> its far away from you geographically, but i think the extra time wasted is in the spirit of the language
16:22:28 <__kerbal__> Are you referring to https://esolangs.org/wiki/2017 ?
16:23:20 <ais523> wow that page is horribly formatted
16:23:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52373&oldid=52369 * Zzo38 * (+768) Make implementation
16:25:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52374&oldid=52373 * Ais523 * (+28) clean up the formatting a bit
16:27:45 <ais523> wow, that was an automatically resolved edit conflict
16:27:51 <ais523> how often does /that/ happen on esolangs.org?
16:30:10 <ais523> my guess is almost never
16:30:14 <ais523> there's a chance this was the first time ever
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18:19:05 <__kerbal__> Integ's getting a package system. I'm testing it over at #esoteric-blah
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18:50:36 <fungot> __kerbal__: or something like that, that's an 8-bit character encoding
19:09:02 <\oren\> Happy Canada Day Everyone
19:17:39 <zzo38> Can you answer these quiz of Canada Day: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/canada.day
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20:01:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52375 * Kerbal * (+246) Created page with "I think that a subset of hardf*** (the subset not including @ and \) is almost exactly equivalent to brainf***. Therefore, hardf*** is almost undoubtedly Turing-complete. ~~~~"
20:02:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52376&oldid=52375 * Kerbal * (+0)
20:03:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52377&oldid=52376 * Kerbal * (+19)
20:05:15 <shachaf> something about bricks and brains
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20:34:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52378&oldid=52349 * B jonas * (+29)
20:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52379&oldid=52351 * B jonas * (-61)
20:36:17 <zzo38> Do you know these questions?
20:38:52 <int-e> . o O ( not glorious nor free )
20:39:11 <myname> "i'm gonna make bf harder by giving it more shortcut commands!"?
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21:20:22 <fizzie> Before / after: https://zem.fi/tmp/cover.jpg
21:28:22 <int-e> is that a flying pig...
21:32:20 <int-e> seems that only two of the chimneys were in use?
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22:23:39 <Taneb> fizzie, is that Battersea?
22:41:38 <fizzie> In case it wasn't clear, the left side is the cover of the Pink Floyd album Animals.
22:45:12 <zzo38> Now I wrote the specification for Unusenet.
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23:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52380&oldid=52361 * Kerbal * (-20)
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00:30:22 <__kerbal__> It's literally just bf with renamed commands, maybe a slightly altered input thing and 2 extra commands
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00:35:50 <fizzie> Have to do another scheduled fungot maintenance, sorry.
00:35:50 <fungot> fizzie: i can't really give you the ' declare' stuff in 30 seconds ( this is the
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00:43:14 <fizzie> fungot: All done, I hope.
00:43:15 <fungot> fizzie: ( which is an instruction for being a bad idea anyway :) recursive descent parsing
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01:08:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:58 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:09:13 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, we want to make it clear that saddam hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator who is weak and will weaken your commission’s power as a deputy within this chamber, that we should wait for the council minutes specify that the commission will inform parliament at the moment, it is better to refrain from using it. the commission will see to it that the framework agreement because it will be difficult or even impo
01:09:41 <FireFly> That looks like a pretty direct quote
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01:31:17 <fizzie> fungot: Should the ECJ be responsible for watching over the rights of EU nationals in the UK in the future?
01:31:18 <fungot> fizzie: i welcome the fact that if we allow this committee to adopt? will its meetings be public, as the honourable member now speaking; namely, the new work which we have not asked you not to do this we must have an accurate idea of the extent to which private interests are opposed to this project.
01:33:13 <fizzie> FireFly: I don't really have a tool to decompose these, but it is at least somewhat a composite. For example, the "saddam hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator who is weak" bit is from two different places.
01:33:36 <fizzie> Admittedly both were talking about Saddam Hussein.
01:34:04 <fizzie> "Saddam Hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator, a real threat to peace." & "Saddam Hussein has not been so weak for ten years or so. He is a bloodthirsty dictator who is weak and who is now incapable of attacking other countries."
01:35:23 <fizzie> Followed by a switch to something else altogether: -- your candidate is weak and will weaken your Commission’s power as a whole.
01:35:46 <FireFly> it worked out surprisingly well, heh
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01:40:52 <fizzie> Europarl has a decent hit rate. I don't know if that's some sort of a comment about politics.
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01:41:45 <fizzie> fungot: So what about that generous proposal, huh?
01:41:46 <fungot> fizzie: i am very concerned that pensioners and elderly people lived through the second part, however, is the subject of forests in the mediterranean
01:42:04 <__kerbal__> fungot: How did you feel about Brexit?
01:42:06 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, commissioner, do you not think that it is a step towards establishing the future european police college will be taken to put an end to the bloodshed. we believe crime must be done without any complexes of an ideological or any other european institution, should be developed in this country, there are three points but i mainly want to mention that we were deeply disappointed that it did not prove possi
01:42:28 <__kerbal__> so... fungot is pro-Brexit or pro-crime?
01:42:29 <fungot> __kerbal__: i would like to ask whether he perhaps needs an aspirin c. i should like to highlight an incident of a completely uniform system. if, however, unable to allow this, whilst shipowners who can purchase ships at far below their cost price come out on top.
01:43:28 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, in the clearest terms from the commission, although any such external affairs commissioner should of course have delayed our rescue operation as we would have promised and agreed things which cannot be achieved already through regional conferences. i referred earlier, during my visit to london, there was not enough to replace those of the european union
01:43:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:43:47 <fizzie> Not all of them work particularly well.
01:44:46 <fizzie> Sure, there's strong precedent in letting that particular bot spam the channel. (You can do it in privmsg, but you'll hit the at-most-four-replies-in-a-row limit pretty fast.)
01:44:58 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
01:45:04 <fungot> __kerbal__: meh shes not what you'd expect! turning a game? and how much has happened over the last clips there werent hardly any people...its fake?
01:45:46 * __kerbal__ sees the dark side of YouTube embodied
01:46:04 <fizzie> That one is like from a total of 3 videos (the data was collected by someone else, and crawled manually), so it can be a little samey.
01:46:13 <fizzie> At least one of them was a plane crash.
01:46:22 <fizzie> fungot: Those pilots did a great job though, right?
01:46:22 <fungot> fizzie: you asshole i was 19 when this came on!!! lol i dribbled might will be a model. first, i wouldn't even care that you actually spoke when not authorized? stfu yourself slam-mules-ass.
01:46:32 <fizzie> Well, that's very YouTube.
01:46:45 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
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01:46:59 <fungot> __kerbal__: " but what's the good of having six legs, my dear, i turned cold to the very moment that she picked them? even real scented rushes, you know, they hadn't any feet.
01:48:04 <fizzie> There's no canonical list. A bunch are from Project Gutenberg.
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01:48:58 <fizzie> Europarl, Enron and sms are freely available corpora. 'fisher' I sneaked out of my former university.
01:49:42 <fizzie> It's the Enron email leak.
01:49:48 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
01:50:18 <fizzie> Sorry, not really a "leak", it became public as part of that one investigation.
01:50:35 <fizzie> Many of the styles didn't get enough cleaning-up and unformatting done, so they can be pretty messy.
01:50:43 <fizzie> fungot: Are you engaged in any suspicious business practices?
01:50:44 <fungot> fizzie: the value of the free world thank goodness we don?t have. swd joe richards, and above mentioned questions on the espeak site
01:50:54 <doesthiswork> do you think you could add nixen's tapes as well?
01:52:12 <fizzie> 'ct' and 'ff7' are fan-made trascripts of the corresponding games, 'nethack' is from NetHack data files, 'wp' is from the Wikipedia XML dump (1% talk page sample), the webcomics are I think mostly crawled from their wikia wikis.
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01:52:58 <fizzie> homestuck, iwcs, pa, qwantz.
01:55:31 <doesthiswork> google says that this is the only place irregular web comics strips gets abbreviated to iwcs
01:56:36 <fizzie> It's actually IWC-S, to distinguish it from IWC-[something else], but the other one didn't really work at all so I never installed it.
01:56:51 <fizzie> Where 'S' stands from 'script', possibly.
01:56:59 <fizzie> The 'ct' style has generated some memorable quotes, though it lost some of its personality when I fixed a bug that was biasing the probabilities and leading it to get stuck in a loop often.
01:57:11 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
01:57:13 <fizzie> fungot: Can that sword alone stop it?
01:57:13 <fungot> fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
01:57:32 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, it's quite a sight. But can it stop it?
01:57:32 <fungot> fizzie: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...!
01:57:51 <fizzie> (It's still pretty repetitive, there's not that much content.)
01:58:08 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
01:58:15 <fungot> __kerbal__: da i hav clas), just giveme the total value. create a contact on indyarocks.com
01:58:29 <fizzie> There's a lot of SMS shorthand in that one.
01:58:34 <fungot> fizzie: if i start sending blackberry... c u at nyt...
01:58:51 <fungot> __kerbal__: just in time to rehearse for the bestpresentation demo. i only ask abt dat piano class 2rw... bt girisha.)
01:59:13 <__kerbal__> (I was just trying to get a rise out of it)
01:59:30 <fungot> doesthiswork: hey in arasur:-) 2) 3) pass this to people including me. a blessing. fr. japan is say only
01:59:56 <fungot> doesthiswork: i want to sent mesages. but u'l talk to ya. mery dant rahi? erik needs it
02:00:27 <fungot> __kerbal__: in a party in tarpon springs cuts at chap 2 lor! thank you star i see tonight second show:-)
02:00:42 <fungot> __kerbal__: sorry i am in practice. be there in a minute. i go toilet first... where u? starting to become an issue... maybe i stay in xinrou house hibernate.outside wet just for me. happy to help anytime :)
02:02:03 <fizzie> I don't think the majority of the people who donated to that corpus were native English speakers.
02:02:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
02:02:36 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
02:02:49 <shachaf> fungot: now that's how you speak english
02:02:49 <fungot> shachaf: at a speed of over eight hundred thousand things to save the city, and the skyline is dominated by billboards, ads like that burn my biscuits, pal, or go to an early gravy! wait, what the heck's going on?
02:03:30 <oerjan> (surely iwc must be crawled from the site itself, it has most meticulous transcripts)
02:03:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, it probably is.
02:04:04 <fizzie> And I think the same is true for homestuck.
02:04:40 <fizzie> I don't even have the source materials for many of these styles, since I trained a bunch of the models at the university.
02:05:18 <zzo38> I got a segmentation fault when using valgrind. Is it supposed to do that?
02:05:39 <shachaf> A segementation fault can mean a lot of things.
02:05:43 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
02:05:55 <fungot> __kerbal__: how do you keep doing that?! pointing to the skeletal in some depictions, this transition can take place anywhere, and a killer taipan
02:07:26 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
02:07:27 <fizzie> fungot: Are cockatrices good to eat?
02:07:27 <fungot> fizzie: pelias: conan cried out sharply and recoiled, thrusting his companion uneasily. " its outer surface will be very pleased if you thought the wizard will give you a gentleman?
02:07:43 <doesthiswork> a game where you play a hacker trying to create a botnet
02:08:05 <fizzie> fungot: Should I zap myself with a random wand?
02:08:05 <fungot> fizzie: they say that some potions contain a ghost inside! i'm being held prisoner in a linear combination has no really scaring effect whatsoever, ( chapter epsilon), and the lord rose and went forth halting; but there were five tall figures: two standing on the peels.
02:08:26 <fizzie> Being held prisoner in a linear combination sounds plenty scary to me.
02:08:40 <fizzie> Probably something to do with the matrix of whateveritwas.
02:10:07 <HackEgo> matrix of solidity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:10:12 <doesthiswork> where does linear combination appear in the corpus?
02:10:13 <__kerbal__> fizzie: is it in R2 or R3? I think I'd be ok with the latter...
02:11:05 <fizzie> doesthiswork: data.base, "s*d*g*r* cat".
02:11:22 <fizzie> "To the outside observer, the cat is indeed in a linear combination of being alive and dead, --"
02:11:34 <shachaf> fizzie: https://cmubash.org/?1491 hth
02:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52381&oldid=52377 * Zzo38 * (+216)
02:13:41 <fizzie> The "held prisoner" part came from the fortune cookie that says "Help! I'm being held prisoner in a fortune cookie factory!", which incidentally is technically counted as a false rumour.
02:15:15 <fizzie> The five tall figures are Nazgûl, though in the original source material two of them weren't, in fact, standing on banana peels.
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02:20:58 <oerjan> . o O ( what about the other 3 )
02:21:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52382&oldid=52381 * Kerbal * (+444)
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03:17:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kerbal * uploaded "[[File:Integ-Logo.JPEG]]"
03:18:08 <HackEgo> 1/2:hppavilion_m//hppavilion_m is the hppavilions modulo m \ compiler//A compiler (lit. “with-piler”) is one who builds piles together with someone else. \ schaf//"Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf. \ phantom_hoover//Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. \ Я/
03:18:27 <HackEgo> 2/2:/Я is the 9th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet
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03:34:00 <\oren\> in japan cats say "nyan" and meow means you look good
03:34:39 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
03:49:36 <HackEgo> 1/3:heffalump//A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead. \ qdb//qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat \ colour//Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeu
03:49:41 <HackEgo> 2/3:d to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu. \ wumpus//Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that
03:49:43 <HackEgo> 3/3: are guided by a nefarious AI. \ protocoal//Protocoal is a bit of a wooden pun.
03:50:06 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:50:24 <shachaf> oerjan: I guess colour doesn't break the rules!
03:50:39 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. \ a
03:57:13 <HackEgo> color//Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:57:19 <HackEgo> colour//Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu.
03:58:20 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. \ a
03:59:00 <HackEgo> brilliant \ logs \ piet \ tip \ tmp
03:59:23 <oerjan> `` \? brilliant; echo a
03:59:24 <HackEgo> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h
04:00:06 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs \ a
04:00:21 <HackEgo> 1/1:I think you might mean !logs \ a
04:00:29 <HackEgo> logs//I think you might mean !logs
04:00:50 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colourful programming language. \ a
04:00:54 <\oren\> why is hackego suddenly all colorful
04:01:14 <oerjan> \oren\: because we're checking for wisdoms that start color without ending it
04:01:24 <oerjan> which messes up listing several in a row
04:01:57 <HackEgo> A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese. \ a
04:02:06 <zzo38> I think you should please get rid of the colours, with the possible exception of the entry for "color" and "colour"
04:02:11 <HackEgo> tmp/ is a directory for files that are not worth saving in HackEgo history, but which should still outlive a single command. NOTE: It interacts funnily with HackEgo's lock and re-run commit check; files can DISAPPEAR if you don't know what you're doing. Basically, don't modify files inside and outside tmp/ in the same HackEgo command. \ a
04:02:33 <oerjan> zzo38: they're essential for tip and tmp
04:03:17 <oerjan> brilliant is _supposed_ to look annoying.
04:03:25 <oerjan> but i guess logs could drop them.
04:03:43 <oerjan> it's an obsolete wisdom anyhow
04:04:24 <zzo38> Yes, keep it for piet and if brilliant is supposed to look annoying that too. Remove for the others, including tip and tmp
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04:05:08 <oerjan> it's in tmp to mark a warning. tip would be entirely meaningless without the colors.
04:05:49 <oerjan> ok maybe not _entirely_, but much less visual.
04:06:15 <shachaf> Are tips a common thing in the UK?
04:06:23 <shachaf> I was under the impression that they're much less expected.
04:06:31 <oerjan> `learn Logs: see channel topic.
04:06:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'log': Logs: see channel topic.
04:06:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/log//I think you might mean !logs
04:07:24 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
04:10:11 <HackEgo> A tip is ^C0,3[ $ ]^C if you're American, ^C12[ M-BM-# ]^C if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
04:11:07 <HackEgo> tip//A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
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04:11:47 <oerjan> `slwd brilliant//s,$,,
04:11:49 <HackEgo> brilliant//B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ͌
04:12:10 <oerjan> it doesn't matter because it's obviously too long, but that makes the grwp clean.
04:12:52 <oerjan> `slwd tip//s, if, if,g
04:12:54 <HackEgo> tip//A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
04:13:32 <oerjan> shachaf: now all wisdoms are `5 compliant hth
04:14:14 <HackEgo> ngevd//ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
04:15:23 <oerjan> that seems tricky to "fix"
04:15:56 <oerjan> (as in, can't spout an infinite file either)
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05:15:03 <HackEgo> 1/2:marmite//Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth. \ erlang//Erlang has tricked people into loving global mutable variables while pretending to embrace immutability. \ mips//MIPS Is Popular in Schools. \ links//links is one of the very few HTML renderers that doesn't try to store
05:15:16 <HackEgo> 2/2:a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter in a separate element. \ log//Logs: see channel topic.
05:16:51 <HackEgo> 4034:2013-11-20 <oerjän> learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools. \ 4033:2013-11-20 <boil̈y> learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools.
05:17:26 <shachaf> `slwd mips//sSchoolsSingaporeS
05:17:28 <HackEgo> mips//MIPS Is Popular in Singapore.
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05:50:37 <oerjan> `slwd mips//sPopularProhibitedP
05:50:39 <HackEgo> mips//MIPS Is Prohibited in Singapore.
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06:16:38 <shachaf> Cale: Did you invent your fancy better-than-SQL query language yet?
06:16:56 <Cale> shachaf: not yet, no
06:17:10 <shachaf> What do you think it would be like?
06:17:15 <Cale> shachaf: Though Ryan's been working on some cool stuff, and I'm excited to see how that turns out
06:17:30 <shachaf> Based on relations or something else?
06:17:46 <Cale> He's using Conal's constrained categories stuff to translate nearly arbitrary Haskell code into SQL queries
06:18:27 <shachaf> SQL is simultaneously remarkably expressive and frustratingly unexpressive.
06:18:59 <Cale> With the hope being that we can avoid our current issue of needing to write everything twice: once in Haskell to filter a bunch of Maps and once in SQL to pull stuff out of the DB
06:19:24 <shachaf> That's good, but I care about query languages in a cross-language way.
06:19:40 <shachaf> I don't think all code should be in Haskell.
06:19:59 <Cale> I only think almost all code should be in Haskell
06:20:44 <shachaf> Cale: Maybe you should go work for Target with conal and all the Haskell people there.
06:21:01 <Cale> Maybe, but Obsidian is pretty nice too
06:50:52 <Taneb> Cale, what do Obsidian do? Unless you're, like, working in an Elder Scrolls game, which is cool too I guess
06:54:36 <Cale> Taneb: Obsidian Systems -- we build web and mobile applications for various clients, entirely in Haskell, and using Reflex and Reflex-DOM.
06:57:44 <shachaf> Taneb: maybe you should work at target hth
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07:03:06 <Taneb> shachaf, does Target write any Haskell in Europe
07:03:25 <Taneb> Cale, that sounds pretty cool!
07:03:31 <shachaf> I think they have various remote employees using Haskell, including one in India?
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07:12:29 <oerjan> . o O ( is shikhin that employee )
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12:50:00 <HackEgo> potatoes//You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
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13:09:08 <boily> long live the Queen, our PM (Photogenic Minister), mapoles, and plein d'affaires de même!
13:10:51 <quintopia> that idiom seems hard to translate
13:11:29 <boily> “and lots of things like that”.
13:12:21 <__kerbal__> it sounds like "lots of the affairs of memes." I didn't know that memes had things to do
13:13:04 <quintopia> google translated it as "same business"
13:14:33 <boily> it was quite rainy. there may have been fireworks somewhere?
13:16:09 <__kerbal__> Maybe the fireworks planners were evil Canadians trying to take over the municipal government
13:16:20 <boily> we ain't evil, eh.
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13:16:51 <__kerbal__> poutine seems like a diabolical attempt to make people obese, from what I hear
13:17:21 <shachaf> I am the very model of a photogenic minister, / I've information ominous, mysterious, and sinister,
13:18:14 <boily> __kerbal__: it's tasty, makes you happy, and best enjoyed at 3am!
13:19:26 <shachaf> I don't know enough about Canadian politics to make a good Trudeau song.
13:20:32 <shachaf> But you can make a rhyme with "administer", and maybe also use "sinister" to refer to his political leanings.
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13:27:04 <quintopia> and fenester to describe one possible method of assassination
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13:38:43 <__kerbal__> As part of the upcoming Integ 1.3 release, Integ now features a standard library!
13:40:44 <shachaf> As a poetry form, you must know it; / You're nearly a limerick poet. / But if you are a cheater, / and don't fit the meter, / You're gonna blow it.
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15:30:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kerbal * uploaded "[[File:Integ-Logo1.jpeg]]"
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15:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52385&oldid=52380 * Kerbal * (+27)
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18:26:24 <shikhin> < oerjan> [02:12:29] . o O ( is shikhin that employee ) <- /me blinks.
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18:43:07 <Taneb> That's closer to me than has previously been the case!
19:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FFM/FFB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52386&oldid=52215 * Enoua5 * (+2285) Added FFB examples
19:08:30 <zzo38> Do you like my design of Unusenet?
19:11:11 <zzo38> What kind of NNTP server softwares can you suggest using?
19:12:15 <zzo38> (It is possible for a NNTP server to implement both Usenet and Unusenet, because there are no namespace collisions.)
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19:27:49 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: Integbot is on. If you want, I can should you op definitions and the new package system
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20:23:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kerbal * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Integ-Logo1.jpeg]]": Smaller
20:25:04 <Warrigal_> Cale: hey, I thought I was the one creating the fancy better-than-SQL query language. :D
20:25:13 <Warrigal_> I don't care who creates it; I just care that it be created.
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20:25:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52388&oldid=52385 * Kerbal * (+11)
20:27:30 <Warrigal_> Btw, the week of July 3 is an odd week.
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20:41:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52389&oldid=52388 * Kerbal * (+1869) Added info for 1.3
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21:43:45 <Cale> Warrigal: I'm not actually working on it actively, but it is something on my mind
21:45:40 <Cale> Warrigal: One of the main things I want is that it should be able to handle sum types nicely (especially sums of other tables in the DB).
21:46:34 <Cale> Warrigal: i.e. I want to be able to have a column which refers to a record of table A, B, or C, and we know which, and the query language should let me pattern match / case on that.
21:47:12 <shachaf> Cale: Or do you want arbitrary ADTs in your database?
21:47:58 <Cale> Arbitrary algebraic data types would be nice, but I can live without recursion if it's too hard to do efficiently.
21:48:54 <Cale> and if you can do sum types like that, then doing the non-recursive part of ADTs is doable
21:49:39 <shachaf> Do you just want least fixed points or also greatest fixed points?
21:50:37 <Cale> Actually, if you want to go crazy, a really nice idea I had was a database whose rows were dependent telescopes
21:50:55 <Cale> So the type of each subsequent column can depend on the values of the preceding columns
21:51:03 <Cale> But that's probably not easy
21:51:16 <shachaf> As an arbitrary function of the preceding columns?
21:51:35 <Cale> Well, that's to be determined
21:55:28 <Cale> Warrigal: The other thing I really want is for applications to register a collection of queries with the DB, and whenever a transaction commits which would affect the result of a registered query, the application will receive an update with the changes.
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21:56:22 <Cale> Ideally, the DB would do a bunch of stuff as the queries were registered to optimise the task of figuring out which registered queries are affected by a given commit.
21:58:13 <Cale> But the reason I want that is that then we could use an FRP system to deal with querying the database and propagating the changes that come back to everything they influence. It would clean up our application backends a lot.
21:58:46 <shachaf> What is your application again?
21:58:57 <Cale> Several different web and mobile applications
21:58:59 <shachaf> "Software solutions custom-built to suit your needs."
21:59:23 <Cale> One is a sort of competitor to slack with a bunch of additional features
21:59:24 <shachaf> Cale: You should tell whoever is in charge of https://obsidian.systems/ that autoplaying a sound when I go on your web page is really annoying.
22:01:41 <shachaf> Well, I'll tell them myself.
22:02:18 <shachaf> Cale: I want to make a web application.
22:02:22 <shachaf> Should I do it in Haskell?
22:03:50 <zzo38> I thought a web application should be done in HTML?
22:04:42 <shachaf> I mean the server side of it.
22:04:54 <shachaf> But it might also involve JavaScript, or a language that compiles to JavaScript.
22:06:07 <Cale> shachaf: Sure.
22:06:21 <Cale> I also highly recommend checking out reflex-dom :)
22:07:46 <zzo38> O, well, there is many possibilities, including C, PHP, JavaScript, SQL, Perl, Haskell, etc. For client-side should need HTML, possibly with CSS and/or JavaScript also used if needed for this application. However, I think many thing should not need web application at all, in my opinion
22:07:56 <Cale> With reflex-dom, you don't actually need HTML :)
22:08:32 <Cale> Well, at least, not more than a stub which loads the JS code
22:08:48 <Cale> Your application (which is written in Haskell and compiled to Javascript) controls the contents of the DOM
22:09:28 <Cale> You still use HTML tags and such, but you don't necessarily render any HTML to be parsed by the browser.
22:10:15 <Cale> There is a mode of operation for that though -- so that you can render static stuff on the backend (in native code) and deliver it to the frontend to be used before the JS gets loaded.
22:10:34 <zzo38> You shouldn't do that; the server should generate all of the HTML content and sent directly to the client. This is only for content that is static to the client though; for some cases you will need dynamic content, in which case you should use a script to generate it instead. For most things though you should provide static content if possible (for some applications this won't work though).
22:10:38 <Cale> Still, you don't actually have to write HTML yourself then :)
22:10:55 <shachaf> Cale: Well, I want the content to be indexed by search engines, of course.
22:10:57 <zzo38> However, you may wish to provide not only HTML interface but also perhaps JSON interface, in order if you want to write your own front-end.
22:11:08 <Cale> Well, most of our applications are single page applications which mostly communicate with a backend via websockets.
22:11:10 <shachaf> It's not quite that much of an application that it doesn't have text to be searched.
22:12:15 <shachaf> I suspect the current state of ghcjs introduces unacceptable overhead.
22:12:27 <Cale> https://github.com/reflex-frp/reflex-platform is a good way to try it
22:12:28 <shachaf> Though maybe it's gotten better since I last used it.
22:12:44 <Cale> Well, depends on what you consider to be unacceptable of course
22:13:04 <zzo38> Defining a protocol with JSON or whatever (even raw TCP connections if applicable) can be better that you can also to use other custom front end programs, even if there is also a HTML-based front-end built-in too.
22:13:37 <zzo38> (Or just use the URL for that purpose, so that you can easily access with curl)
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22:14:03 <Cale> zzo38: We mostly let template Haskell generate the JSON protocol to be used from our types -- we haven't yet really had to deal with the problem of versioning our protocols though.
22:14:49 <Cale> It *is* really nice to not have to worry about the JSON encoding and decoding being correct though.
22:15:24 <Cale> For the most part, as far as I have to care about, there are just Haskell datastructures on either side of the wire.
22:16:30 <Cale> We could just as well be using a binary format for communication, but sometimes it's nice to be able to see what was sent in Chrome's inspector -- and it hides binary websocket frames from you.
22:17:37 <zzo38> But then it makes it difficult to document the JSON being used
22:19:36 <Cale> I suppose we could write another tool which took the types in question and generated documentation for the JSON rather than an encoder and decoder.
22:20:25 <Cale> But mostly this communication is internal, and while we assume people could interfere with it, we don't really care about making that easy for stuff that's not using the generated JSON encoder.
22:30:50 <Cale> shachaf: btw, I... don't hear anything when I go to obsidian.systems.
22:31:13 <shachaf> Try it in an incognito window?
22:31:17 <Cale> shachaf: Oh, maybe it's when intercom sends that initial message
22:31:17 <shachaf> I think it's only the first time.
22:32:27 <Cale> I think there's a plan to replace this site soon enough anyway, but -- that'll probably involve some intercom integration too, so I'll be sure to mention your concern :)
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23:05:38 <Warrigal_> Aw man. I just thought of a sweet mathematical property that isn't actually true.
23:07:00 <Warrigal_> For each positive integer n, the sets A = {1..n} and B = {n+1..2n} can be put in a one-to-one correspondence such that each element of B is divisible by its corresponding element of A.
23:08:33 <Warrigal_> Seems like it might be true. After all, the product of B is always divisible by the product of A.
23:08:43 <Warrigal_> But in any case, the smallest counterexample is n = 4.
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23:09:31 <Warrigal_> Come to think of it, maybe there are only finitely many n for which it *is* true.
23:10:19 <Warrigal_> n = 1: (1,2). n = 2: (1,3), (2,4). n = 3: (1,5), (2,4), (3,6). n = 5: (1,7), (2,6), (3,9), (4,8), (5,10).
23:10:44 <Warrigal_> I think from n = 6 on, B always contains more than one prime number.
23:14:52 <myname> i doubt it is correct for anything big
23:15:02 <myname> between n and 2n, there is always a prime number
23:15:12 <myname> for which you HAVE to pick 1
23:15:23 <myname> the moment you get a second prime, you are screwed
23:15:42 <myname> oh, you went there, too
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23:31:06 <fizzie> Oh, something that was a little funny -- in Edinburgh there was a man camped in front of a fancy Apple store, on a folding chair, with a sign advertising "Cheaper Apple Repairs".
23:31:14 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/apple-repairs.jpg
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01:47:59 <HackEgo> monqy//monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details, if you find him.
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02:08:56 <__kerbal__> So, I've been wondering something. Who hosts the wiki now?
02:10:17 <boily> bonsoύafaitunboutterjan!
02:11:43 <oerjan> __kerbal__: Gregor hosts it and fizzie maintains it
02:12:18 <oerjan> it's on the same server as HackEgo (which is why we get the wiki announcements)
02:12:22 <__kerbal__> ah, ok. I knew who hosted it a few years ago but never found who hosted it now
02:13:44 <oerjan> they stopped coming here.
02:15:56 <boily> a dark basement likely ate them.
02:16:02 <fizzie> I guess that "why" is technically true in that being on the same server was the motivation for the announcements, but they would work across hosts with just a configuration change.
02:17:14 <oerjan> i sort of suspected that
02:18:29 <fizzie> (Making them work in a way that wouldn't permit anyone from spamming the channel by spoofing the source address would be slightly more involved.)
02:18:49 * oerjan cannot find out what "boutt*" means
02:20:22 <boily> «ça fait un boutte», with the infamous «-tte» québécois spelling. «ça fait un bout» → ”it's been a while”.
02:20:52 <boily> while fr:bout can mean en:end, en:extremity, it can also mean en:“a length”.
02:21:07 <__kerbal__> I also heard that there was a forum at one point... I guess that, from what I've read of esolang wiki history, that (A) The forum was redundant and (B) it was clunky to use?
02:21:11 <oerjan> boily: there's some evidence they're still alive.
02:21:24 <oerjan> or were recently, anyway.
02:21:37 <fizzie> __kerbal__: It was also spammy.
02:22:06 <boily> oerjan: I don't know who Graue is.
02:22:20 <fizzie> There's still a read-only copy around, isn't there?
02:22:24 <ais523> boily: person who originally founded the wiki
02:22:34 <ais523> the forum wasn't terrible to use, just nobody did, so nobody had an incentive to
02:23:00 <ais523> IIRC it used the same software 4chan did (or at least, something in the same style), which was an interesting choice
02:23:06 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a link to the archive.
02:25:34 <__kerbal__> The history of the esolang community is really neat. I find category:shameful really amusing
02:26:09 <fizzie> The mailing list(s) got real use, and were the direct predecessor of this channel.
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02:29:09 <__kerbal__> Avast is flagging some kind of threat in one of the mailing list archives
02:30:26 <fizzie> There may be some spam in there as well, especially for the last years.
02:32:03 <fizzie> Maybe we should have a 15-year celebration of some sort for #esoteric this coming December.
02:33:04 <__kerbal__> I've read about various abortive esolang design contests... I would participate in one, personally
02:33:13 <boily> maybe oerjan could meet Taneb?
02:35:41 <fizzie> Maybe oerjan could meet Taneb in Greenland.
02:35:46 <HackEgo> 932) <fizzie> The other day (well, the other week) my wife was annoyed with me because she had a dream where I had gotten us plane tickets into a #esoteric meet somewhere in the middle of Greenland in the winter, without asking her first. Plus she wasn't really interested in a #esoteric meet at all, let alone one in Greenland, let alone one in Gree
02:36:15 <HackEgo> 2/2:Greenland in wintertime. (I think it's kind of cold there?)
02:39:33 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm in MTV again in August, though just for a week.
02:41:32 <lambdabot> BGSF 030050Z AUTO 31014KT 9999NDV SCT060/// 04/M04 Q1010
02:41:40 <lambdabot> KOAK 030053Z 29012KT 10SM FEW008 FEW012 19/13 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP143 T01940128
02:41:42 <lambdabot> KSJC 030053Z 30010KT 10SM FEW024 23/14 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP133 T02330144
02:42:53 <lambdabot> CYUL 030100Z 25003KT 220V290 15SM FEW040TCU FEW080 20/18 A2983 RMK TCU1AC1 SLP104 DENSITY ALT 800FT
02:50:29 <fizzie> What's the "TCU" in "FEW040TCU FEW080”? (Total Cost of... U-something?)
02:51:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_congestus_cloud apparently?
02:51:47 <fizzie> Oh, it's the kind of cloud.
02:53:18 <boily> it's a very humid summer so far. my plants are happy.
02:53:53 <fizzie> My plantdroid dried out while I was in Scotland. :/
02:54:05 <fizzie> I keep pens in it now.
02:57:55 <boily> time for me to slumber post-modernly in an hyper-slow-motion interpretative deconstructivist expression of the inanimate self, transcending linen boundaries and reappropriation of unsuspecting pillows.
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03:18:06 <oerjan> . o O ( what's a plantdroid )
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04:47:56 <shachaf> https://www.akalin.com/bfpp
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06:04:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 030450Z 06004KT 9999 -RA FEW005 SCT015 BKN025 14/13 Q1024 NOSIG
06:29:26 <zzo38> To make up the new kind of forum with Unusenet perhaps. I wrote the document for it, so in order to do so, is only necessary to do what is written on there; it does not require notifying anyone at all about it.
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06:32:31 <zzo38> Did you read this document? Then you can tell me in case of anything wrong with it please.
06:37:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52390&oldid=52347 * Qwertyu63 * (-34)
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06:53:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52391&oldid=52390 * Qwertyu63 * (+72)
06:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52392&oldid=52391 * Qwertyu63 * (-4)
06:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52393&oldid=52392 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
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07:18:29 <izabera> is there a name for this? a tree where each node can be either white, black or grey
07:18:31 <izabera> and where a white node only has white children, and a black node only has black children
07:20:16 <oerjan> (wait, y'all are too young for this...)
07:23:55 <shachaf> Why is that sort of tree interesting?
07:24:49 <int-e> . o O ( oerjan's feeling his age! )
07:25:37 <shachaf> oerjan: I think apartheid known even to youngsters.
07:26:00 <izabera> shachaf: i use a bitmap to keep track of allocated areas, and this is faster than a linear scan
07:26:20 <int-e> oh that kind of tree
07:26:21 <izabera> because if free == white, you don't have to descend into black nodes to find a free block
07:26:52 <shachaf> this "free == white" thing is not helping your case hth
07:27:23 <izabera> let's s/white/blue/g, s/black/yellow/g, s/grey/green/g
07:27:36 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quad_tree_bitmap.svg ... I think they have no particular name and are described by their branching factor instead. (You could to the binary space partitioning as well)
07:28:00 <izabera> yeah that's the same thing but in 1d instead of 2d
07:29:02 <int-e> also, generically, it's a kind of sparse array
07:29:59 <shachaf> How would you make these sorts of diagrams? http://slbkbs.org/h/1.svg
07:30:08 <int-e> izabera: anyway if you find an established name please let us know
07:30:17 <izabera> shachaf: yeah hashlife is great, especially its practical applications
07:30:30 <shachaf> What are its practical applications?
07:31:13 <shachaf> Is the joke that it has no practical applications?
07:31:20 <int-e> what's up with those imaginary gif images
07:32:07 <shachaf> Imaginary gif is better than actual gif
07:32:51 <int-e> I mean, what does "thatsthejoke.gif" convey that isn't conveyed by "that's the joke"?
07:33:04 <shachaf> There's a picture from the Simpsons that it's supposed to conjure, I think.
07:33:23 <shachaf> I watched the video that the picture comes from. It uses "that's the joke" in a completely different sense. It's not very funny.
07:34:23 <shachaf> Oh, so what you're actually saying about this tree is that you only store the internal node rather than the entire subtree.
07:34:54 <shachaf> Why not just call it a tree where the leaves are black or white?
07:35:32 <zzo38> You can call them black white tree.
07:45:00 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: confusiing
07:45:00 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘confusing’ (imported from Control.Lens)
07:45:06 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Day.Curried.Curried (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
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08:26:50 <zzo38> I have played GURPS game four times already, and not once has my character ever been damaged. My character's shield got hit a few times but also has never gotten damaged.
08:52:48 <shachaf> What about your character's shield's shield?
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09:10:24 <Taneb> shachaf, zzo38 goes through four of them a minute
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09:29:32 <lambdabot> byorgey says: <edwardk> @type (^.) <lambdabot> s -> Getting a s t a b -> a <byorgey> I would not like to be getting a stab, thank you
09:29:55 <HackEgo> emoticon//emoticon: ¯\(°_o)/¯
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10:28:48 * oerjan realizes he's been backscrolled fo 3 hours without noticing
10:31:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> :t confusing <-- now i'm wondering what the infamous ... i m a s t a b u function was.
10:33:42 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Someone made a completely non-idiomatic library/redefinings to make the code look more like ruby because, I'm assuming, they suffer from brain damage.
10:34:12 <lambdabot> pjdelport says: [on qwe1234:] It must be a drag, being the sole beacon of sanity in a field where all the established researchers are unanimously insane.
10:34:28 <lambdabot> sioraiocht says: if you made a type class the same name as a type, I'd stab you in the face
10:35:05 <oerjan> i think you cannot do that, without different modules.
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16:41:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Triple Threat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52394 * Kerbal * (+197) Created page with "You say that there are "There are a total of 11 valid commands in TT." Isn't that number actually 12, as 00 is a command? ~~~~"
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16:47:24 <shachaf> oerjan: There was no such function.
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20:16:23 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
20:17:10 <shachaf> Did you know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidity ?
20:17:22 <zzo38> Please to see it gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/unusenet tell me any comment you have of it.
20:17:31 <shachaf> treederwright was a true prophet
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20:30:25 <HackEgo> Mew_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:43:22 <zzo38> Did you read this document?
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22:01:47 <Mew_> How long have you guys been programming?
22:02:14 <Mew_> and how did you get into it?
22:02:29 <Taneb> About 7 or 8 years, from David Morgan Mar's esolangs
22:03:39 <Mew_> I started to program in dos when I was 9, though didn't learn c++ until just this year. C# has served me well
22:04:47 <Mew_> batch, that is
22:04:49 <Taneb> I learnt Haskell shortly after finding this channel circa 2011 and I've just got a job using it \o/
22:05:17 <Mew_> Hope to be able to find a developer job after I finish UNI
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22:05:54 <Taneb> My advice is have a niche skill and lots of public examples of your programming
22:05:54 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
22:06:48 <rdococ> `learn rdococ was thought to be from Budapest, then Mars, but he is actually in Airstrip One. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
22:06:51 <HackEgo> Relearned 'rdococ': rdococ was thought to be from Budapest, then Mars, but he is actually in Airstrip One. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
22:08:24 <Taneb> rdococ, anywhere near the bit of airstrip one I've just moved to?
22:08:25 <HackEgo> rdocöc rdocöc rdocöc oerjän oerjän oerjän rdocöc rdocöc rdocöc oerjän rdocöc rdocöc oerjän
22:11:01 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
22:11:17 <rdococ> Taneb, may I ask you why you moved to Airstrip One? you must be nuts.
22:19:40 <Taneb> rdococ, some of us have the ill fortune to be born here
22:21:26 <Taneb> I've just moved to Cambridge, however
22:22:20 <rdococ> Taneb, ah. I misread what you said.
22:22:31 <rdococ> I was born here too. miracle we can still use the internet.
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22:23:20 <ais523> where is airstrip one?
22:23:24 <Mew_> I live in pirateland #1
22:23:48 <rdococ> It's located above the left-most regions of Eurasia.
22:23:53 <Mew_> and by that I mean digital pirateland #1
22:23:54 <Taneb> ais523, Britain a la 1984
22:24:02 <Taneb> Mew_, ...Penzance???
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22:24:36 <Mew_> You'll have trouble finding someone here who hasnt pirated a movie or game
22:24:48 <Mew_> no, not Penzance
22:24:52 <Mew_> but that's a nice place
22:24:59 <FireFly> I'm trying not to pirate things :P
22:25:20 <Mew_> Same, I actually only pirate to check if its worth buying xd
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22:33:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52395&oldid=52100 * Wheatwizard * (-2) Even shorter sum of inputs
22:35:14 <fizzie> I seem to recall talking about Befunge a significant fraction of one interview, and think I got an offer.
22:35:23 <fizzie> Not sure which company this was though.
22:36:04 <rdococ> make sure it isn't in airstrip one
22:37:06 <fizzie> Logs of this channel suggest it was Nokia, where I think I mostly got the (summer) job for knowing Perl.
22:37:32 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPji43Hqyrg
22:37:34 <\oren\> ^ when u aren't allowed to play anymore minecraft today
22:44:41 <fizzie> Here's a fun UK fact: living here for two and a half years isn't long enough to turn a pay-as-you-go SIM into a monthly (£15/mo) plan SIM, at least with Three. They need three years of UK residential addresses before they can even think about considering such a risk.
22:47:40 <shachaf> No one is answering my question about "Rice's theorem for computable reals": https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/77487/decidable-properties-of-computable-reals
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22:49:58 <__kerbal__> zzo38: Is there a web viewer for gopher?
22:50:13 <__kerbal__> Do you have to download something to read pages in that protocol?
22:50:30 <ais523> gopher predates the web and has a similar format
22:50:52 <ais523> Firefox used to have a gopher viewer as well as an http viewer, I'm not sure if it still does
22:51:21 <zzo38> __kerbal__: Yes, although an alternative, if you do not wish to do that, is to just change "gopher://" to "http://" and remove the 0, and then the same file is accessible over HTTP
22:55:21 <__kerbal__> zzo38: why would an airport need newsgroups?
22:55:39 <fizzie> ais523: I think it was dropped already before they embarked on the big version numbers.
22:55:43 <__kerbal__> (It's a fascinatingly esoteric idea, by the way)
22:56:25 <ais523> I can easily imagine an airport benefitting from private telephone numbers, most big organizations do
22:56:57 <__kerbal__> Why would a private telephone number need a newgroup?
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22:58:52 <zzo38> The telephone numbers are not necessarily going to be private; they could have public access, and that is the point of the un0.tel.* hierarchy, in case it is necessary that that newsgroup has a central server which is accessible by telephone instead of internet. Note that Unusenet does not actually require internet, although internet will probably be the most common case anyways.
22:58:56 <ais523> OK, clearly I took the less insane reading of the ambiguous sentence by default, and given that this is #esoteric I shouldn't have done
22:59:18 <zzo38> If there is anything unclear, notify me so that I may correct it.
22:59:58 <__kerbal__> oh, so the clients would connect by telephone?
23:01:24 <zzo38> __kerbal__: Potentially, although they do not have to. There could be an echo on a server accessible over the internet too, although such a name is specifying that that newsgroup has a central server and that the specified way of accessing it is by telephone.
23:02:06 <__kerbal__> So, would un0.icao.* connect by airplane mail, and un0.icbm.* connect by intercontinental ballistic missile?
23:02:24 <__kerbal__> I wouldn't want to host a server using the latter protocol if so
23:02:25 <zzo38> No. In those cases, no central server is specified.
23:03:00 <__kerbal__> Seriously, though, is icbm intended to be the location of the server?
23:04:35 <__kerbal__> is it just a location for the point of it?
23:04:46 <ais523> __kerbal__: the missiles wouldn't need a warhead
23:04:51 <ais523> you could just put USB sticks on them or something
23:04:59 <boily> hezzo38, his523, __kerbello__.
23:05:38 <Mew_> https://gyazo.com/4433433d420bd66d5014589959bf81f9
23:05:40 <zzo38> It is just a location for the point of it when it is defined, although the server may be physically located there, and you may use disks to transfer messages to/from that server if necessary, although none of these things are required; the location when defined is mainly for uniqueness.
23:05:44 <__kerbal__> ais523: Still, you're LAUNCHING ICBM'S AT SOMEONE!
23:06:06 <ais523> it actually strikes me as a fairly secure method of communication
23:06:18 <ais523> nobody's going to try to recover those things intact if they don't already know they're for sending data
23:06:24 <ais523> and an interception of the message is pretty obvious
23:06:27 <__kerbal__> I think they actually tried something similar
23:06:42 <__kerbal__> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mail
23:06:58 <Mew_> damn, need to figure out how to loop through a, well loop and get the value at the end of the loop and stick it into a variable
23:07:27 <__kerbal__> Would be really cool, just slightly dangerous
23:07:37 <zzo38> ais523: Well, yes you can do that; it is not prohibited by the specification of Unusenet (even though that isn't the intention of the un0.icbm.* hierarchy, the protocol won't stop you from doing this anyways).
23:08:12 <ais523> I'm actually imagining aiming at a lake or the like
23:08:19 <ais523> then you just scoop the missile out of the lake after it lands
23:08:23 <zzo38> Practicalities, dangerous like that, cost, etc, may stop you, but the protocol of Unusenet does not stop you.
23:08:42 <Mew_> or send it under the radar, and noone will know
23:08:47 <Mew_> you need no security then
23:09:35 <zzo38> But you cannot send a missile to that address anyways, because the address points to the past, not the future.
23:11:04 <__kerbal__> zzo38: Can't you just omit the time part in programming your missile?
23:11:23 <Mew_> just change it relative to earth rotation and shit
23:12:12 <zzo38> __kerbal__: I suppose so.
23:12:37 <__kerbal__> (I really like this idea. I'm heading to NORAD and seeing if they can loan me a test ICBM)
23:12:58 <Mew_> can I come with you? but you have to ring the doorbell.
23:13:03 <Mew_> I am to scared
23:14:16 <__kerbal__> Maybe we can organize a delegation to head over to NORAD and ask for missiles in the name of the esolang community
23:14:29 <__kerbal__> for the good of all of us except the ones who are dead
23:15:02 <zzo38> The name "un0.icbm.*" only indicates that it is the "missile address" hierarchy though, not necessarily that you are using actual missiles.
23:15:42 <zzo38> But like I said, the Unusenet protocol does not prohibit you from using actual missiles, either.
23:17:52 <Mew_> Its brainfuck, but instead of the pointer position being saved between writes, it resets. and then you move pointer through a 80 character alphabet with + and -, it also includes a kind of ACC function that exists in asm
23:17:59 <Mew_> but its not really working properly
23:18:06 <Mew_> only the basic stuff
23:18:12 <Mew_> need to figure the looping out
23:19:19 <Mew_> + adds to the position of the pointer and - subtracts, then . writes the current character to a stream
23:19:26 <Mew_> and ; creates a new line
23:19:30 <__kerbal__> How do you move the data pointer if it resets itself?
23:20:05 <Mew_> well, lets say you want to write "ABC" then you would have this "+.++.+++."
23:20:43 <Mew_> instead of what brainfuck would have
23:20:46 <__kerbal__> so + and - are increment and decrement commands
23:20:56 <ais523> does this actually have a tape? or are you just incrementing a single value?
23:21:06 <__kerbal__> ais523: That's exactly what I'm wondering
23:21:25 <Mew_> and adding or subtracting scrolls the tape
23:21:45 <__kerbal__> so, what would the tape look like after the ABC code?
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23:23:37 <Mew_> Well, ok so it doesnt really have a tape, but for that specific character it does. so after you have written (lets say e) which is "+++++." then it would reset, so if you want an F now you would have to do "++++++."
23:24:08 <Mew_> I am not really sure what you mean by tape, new here. But I read the esolang article
23:24:39 <Mew_> I'm very new to C/C++
23:25:31 <__kerbal__> Ok, so basically a tape is like an array that stores integers.
23:25:59 <__kerbal__> Tapes can be arbitrary length in some langs, though\
23:26:58 <Mew_> It doesn't store the last character that you wrote if that is what you mean. I want to implement that by the loop, so if you want something that you previously wrote, you need to access the saved variable in acc.
23:27:34 <Mew_> and to add store a value in acc I want to add the loop [ code ] so that the value at ] would be stored
23:27:40 <__kerbal__> I believe the acc you are talking about may be a stack or a queue (maybe even a deque)
23:28:52 <__kerbal__> stacks and queues are like tapes, but you access them from the ends instead of from within
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23:31:35 <__kerbal__> You might be able to use c# arrays to simulate a tape
23:31:59 <Mew_> That is interesting, because I didnt think of that when I started this evening
23:32:12 <Mew_> but now I think that is the way I should take
23:33:45 <__kerbal__> By the way, if you are having trouble with the C# implementation, Python might be easier
23:34:03 <Mew_> ACC is a registry that stores a value in op codes, and so when you call SUB or ADD it will subtract or add to the ACC registry, that was the way I was planning to go
23:34:40 <Mew_> Ah, see now. I learned Python after I had just learned batch as a kid, but C# kind of took over and suppressed it
23:34:57 <Mew_> but I remember batch clear as day
23:36:25 <__kerbal__> So, without a tape, would your language have an ACC and another accumulator that you have been using already?
23:39:01 <__kerbal__> (The one that +, -, and . have been operating on)
23:39:03 <Mew_> Yep, so it could do subtraction, addition, multiplication and division
23:39:49 <__kerbal__> Interesting; see the bottom of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stack
23:40:39 <__kerbal__> I think you need a tape or a stack or something like that for a TC language
23:40:59 <__kerbal__> with only 2 accumulators, you'd only have two variables
23:41:07 <Mew_> yep, thats the plan
23:41:15 <Mew_> extremely hard to write code for
23:41:20 <Mew_> like brainfuck
23:41:24 <Mew_> but more brainfucky
23:42:35 <__kerbal__> BF has unbounded memory, and is TC. That means that it can execute almost any algorithm you throw at it, even if it is hard
23:42:57 <__kerbal__> I highly recommend that you implement a tape to take advantage of Turing-Completeness
23:43:11 <Mew_> I like how BF is turing complete but C isnt
23:43:50 <Mew_> Ill see what I can do. It'd be pretty cool to be able to say that I have made a turing complete language
23:44:35 <__kerbal__> About C: Some people say that it isn't TC, but in practice it is basically as TC as any other language
23:45:15 <__kerbal__> man, my explanation was nearly flawless. What'd I get wrong?
23:45:21 <alercah> there's a critical distinction, in that a standards-compliant C implementation must have finite memory
23:45:27 <alercah> even if you have infinite physical memory available
23:45:40 <alercah> whereas BF has a theoretically infinite tape
23:46:28 <Mew_> "A programming language that is Turing complete is theoretically capable of expressing all tasks accomplishable by computers; nearly all programming languages are Turing complete if the limitations of finite memory are ignored." According to wikipedia
23:46:53 <__kerbal__> Mew_: No, what he's saying is that the language itself puts a limit on memory
23:46:57 <alercah> __kerbal__: and finite pointer size
23:47:27 <alercah> but I'm not and you were talking about me
23:48:04 <alercah> the standard requires there to be finitely many pointer values, and every object needs a distinct address
23:48:53 <fizzie> Insert the standard #esoteric discussion about how an implementation may allow infinite files to get around that problem.
23:49:43 <__kerbal__> or will we be inserting the discussion by asking that question?
23:49:43 <alercah> it's a hotly contested subject
23:51:01 <fizzie> It does require files where you can seek around with a relative offset, but not (necessarily) get/set an absolute one.
23:51:21 <alercah> but fseek() has to return the current offset
23:52:51 <fizzie> Arguably it doesn't need to work for all files.
23:53:04 <Mew_> Well, good night. I have to magically fall asleep and wake up in the next 5 hours. Work
23:53:40 <Mew_> Also thanks __kerbal__ :)
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23:55:21 <FireFly> that's what singular they is for
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23:55:44 <__kerbal__> from now on, I should just use the nicks, I guess
23:55:55 <FireFly> (I just realised the irony of using singular they in that line)
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23:56:43 <boily> it's safe to assume people are themselves, up to isomorphism.
23:56:54 <__kerbal__> It looked like Mew_ created a new character set
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00:04:56 <alercah> hmm I want to make a language where the only available integer constants are weird
00:05:05 <alercah> but you need to not be able to know they are coprime or it's easy
00:06:31 <fizzie> In case someone else had missed it too (and there's precedent discussing it on-channel), SGDQ 2017 is happening.
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00:09:18 <__kerbal__> alercah: by weird do you mean non-coprime?
00:09:47 <alercah> available constants include: the number of bytes in the source file, the current day of the month, numberwang
00:10:32 <__kerbal__> this could have interesting ramifications for quines
00:10:49 <alercah> numberwang is a constant for any run of the program but changes each run
00:11:16 <fizzie> Presumably you need to restrict what can be done with those constants, otherwise (X/X)+(X/X)+(X/X)+... is an unary way to represent any number, for a constant X.
00:11:50 <__kerbal__> so, for truly portable code you'd have to work around integer constants entirely or exploit a loophole
00:12:13 <__kerbal__> unless you use something like the number of bytes in the source
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00:12:49 <__kerbal__> Still, how do you prevent someone from rebuilding the set of integer numbers from a single number and arithmetic?
00:13:05 <alercah> you make it hard to find 1
00:14:00 <__kerbal__> so arithmetic will be restricted if it generates 1?
00:15:20 <alercah> well no, if you get 1, you win
00:15:35 <alercah> although it might be helpful to include intercal-style arithmetic
00:15:41 <alercah> where you don't get your usual operations
00:16:02 <alercah> well that and just to make it more entertaining
00:17:37 <__kerbal__> what about a rotation operator? It would rotate the line to the complex number x y degrees
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00:21:47 <alercah> putting max or min in (but not both, that's too easy) would be good
00:21:52 <alercah> maybe round to nearest multiple of 7
00:21:53 <__kerbal__> if you don't, what about an operator a such that, for 2 integer numbers x and y, as y or x approaches infinity or negative infinity, x a y is 2 or negative 2 or something like that? Something that evokes the 1/x curve
00:21:59 <zzo38> I am trying to install a package that uses a dependency which is not available on the distribution I am using; it is libstdc++6 (>= 4.8) which I do not have. How to fix it?
00:22:48 <__kerbal__> by negative 2, I mean 0: Some integer thing that approaches 1 for infinite operands
00:23:20 <__kerbal__> asymptotically approaches 1, I guess I am trying to say
00:23:23 <alercah> that really requires floating poing to be productive
00:23:32 <alercah> ooh, should maybe use a non-IEEE floating point for all numbers too
00:23:36 <__kerbal__> you could round, I guess, but that would make little sense
00:25:23 <alercah> have the exponent be powers of 3
00:25:35 <alercah> and don't bother normalizing the mantissa
00:26:20 <alercah> that's not really meaningful
00:27:04 <alercah> actually I think the floating point math would get weirder with bigger exponent base?
00:27:49 <zzo38> "Important: libstdc++6 is an important system library that many different packages depend on. Upgrading this package to a newer release might be dangerous and might lead to system stability issues." Is it possible to tell only one program to use the new version?
00:28:29 <alercah> you can only have one library with a given SONAME
00:28:45 <alercah> within your package manager you can't
00:29:05 <alercah> you could if you downloaded the program separately and wrapped it with a script to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH
00:29:32 <shachaf> zzo38: imo statically link everything hth
00:31:49 <zzo38> And, how to do that?
00:32:36 <shachaf> Apparently it's not easy to statically link libstdc++
00:38:01 <__kerbal__> Someone should make an esolang where the only storage is really a tape but is interfaced as and called an accumulator vector, just to make people think
00:38:40 <__kerbal__> Multiple accumulator vectors in a language would have some neat mathematical properties
00:38:52 <__kerbal__> because they'd basically be tapes that'd interact
00:39:21 <__kerbal__> through arithmetic operations and the like
00:39:30 <__kerbal__> or would that simply be a language called R?
00:41:11 <__kerbal__> actually, a language where you would treat stacks and tapes and everything else as single, interactable structures with arithmetic capabilities would be really cool.
00:44:33 <zzo38> Is it possible for a ELF program to specify a different filename or different directory or whatever and to modify the ELF program to do that without causing a problem? I can add a wrapper script if necessary but I don't even know how would be adding the separate library and how to program to make it to do that?
00:50:02 <zzo38> How do I download version 4.8 of libstdc++6 anyways?
00:52:00 <zzo38> Also, what do I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to? What is the man page for LD_LIBRARY_PATH?
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00:55:09 <zzo38> Nevermind I found the information about LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
00:55:32 <zzo38> However, that does not tell me how to download libstdc++6
01:06:08 <__kerbal__> are you on linux? if so, wouldn't apt-get install work?
01:07:24 <zzo38> But that version of that package is not available.
01:08:25 <zzo38> I tried to use "dpkg --dry-run" with the .deb for Node.js version 8, but it says error it needs the action option.
01:11:12 <zzo38> I want to download the file for libstdc++6 version 4.8 and then tell this program to use the newer one even though the other program does not.
01:11:41 <zzo38> I could write a shell script that sets LD_LIBRARY_PATH but first the file need to installed.
01:12:21 <__kerbal__> Would this help at all? I bet you've already tried this https://packages.debian.org/jessie/libstdc++6
01:14:22 <zzo38> I don't know if it might conflict with other programs that use the existing libstdc++6, such as Ubuntu system files
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01:23:50 <fungot> __kerbal__: they say that real hackers always are controlled. there, among other things, the stone struck the spider lay dead beside him, and even birds, got out, long snout upraised like a blank scroll is the ultimate shape changer.
01:24:22 <__kerbal__> Ironically, I suspect that fungot was never trained on the word fungot, so he can't say it
01:24:22 <fungot> __kerbal__: they say that most monsters prefer minced meat. that's why they are capable of attacking twice with weapons and with a +5 shovel.
01:25:58 <fungot> __kerbal__: they say that venus sprang from the oligocene of asia, which fought on its lowest level.
01:30:50 <fungot> Warrigal_: blind io had got his name because, where his eye. but the sword. ( the light but warm silken stuff that the priesthood are specially favored by the puritans and in the sky who plagued the allied pilots in their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their fate, full share had the dead.
01:30:57 <fungot> Warrigal_: they say that some eggs could hatch in your .newsrc!"
01:31:10 <fungot> Warrigal_: sake: japanese rice wine. human(oid) of the english language)
01:31:14 <fungot> Warrigal_: the wizard of yendor and stay away from onslaught. he is believed to have assumed mortal form and inhabited the dungeon residents who, naturally, often carrying diseases. " after dinner, you see invisible things.
01:31:29 <Warrigal_> Trying to figure out if fungot tries to use a word that's in the prompt message.
01:32:22 <fungot> __kerbal__: disenchanter: ask not, as shown by all accounts.' ( the tough guide to the lion kills and eats, and he looked at rikki-tikki with the atlatl, which means old god, goddess: goddesses and gods, godlets rather, in the following year condemned to be leading the souls who pass to afterlife, but never to touch naked persons: they don't harm them.
01:32:33 <fungot> __kerbal__: old hackers never sleep near invisible ring wraiths. yeats). they were not trolls but giant orcs; but the goblins called it simply biter. they called them gremlins, he enjoys visiting the earth elemental, the shokaku bo were small plates, sometimes triangular but more commonly rectangular in shape. because the front projected so far as the ears, and can spread a quickly fatal illness to his feet.
01:33:00 <Warrigal_> Anyway, I feel an esolang coming on.
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03:28:25 <zzo38> X is much better than Wayland I think. However, a lot of stupid junk has been added into X, too.
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04:01:20 <\oren\> maybe linkin park is just music for people who are failures at life
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07:33:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: There was no such function. <-- well it was not _implemented_... or are you saying edwardk is a _liar_?
07:35:43 <oerjan> or even worse, people are faking edwardk quotes
07:37:02 <shachaf> edwardk is sometimes an exaggarator
07:39:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:misle//misle v. tr. "I was misled about morphology." \ ursala//~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-, \ tachyon//The tachyon is rude and has no style, but gets away with it because of its spee
07:39:48 <HackEgo> 2/2:d. Taneb will invent it if he ever catches up. \ frozen water//Frozen water is just ice. \ man//Man is destined for Greatness, despite being a minor island.
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10:39:04 <wob_jonas> "<Warrigal_> Aw man. I just thought of a sweet mathematical property that isn't actually true." => wait, I'll tell another one that would be nice if it were true
10:40:30 <wob_jonas> Let F and G be integers, a_0=0, a_1=1, and for every natural number k, a_{k+1}=Fa_{k-1}+Ga_k. It would be nice if for every natural numbers k and l, gcd(a_k,a_l)=a_{gcd(k,l)}
10:40:49 <wob_jonas> This actually works for F=G=1 and many other choices, but it fails for some others.
10:40:57 <wob_jonas> Even if you put magnitude bars in.
10:42:41 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> Maybe we should have a 15-year celebration of some sort for #esoteric this coming December." => wow, now I feel like a newbie here
10:44:38 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: I think apartheid known even to youngsters." => this, yes. you can't avoid shameful 20th century history if you live in present day Europe, with all the memorials around
10:47:54 <wob_jonas> fungot, when you fry then cook beef slices, how do you prepare the meat?
10:47:55 <fungot> wob_jonas: ashikaga takauji was a pretty fair shot with a bag.... but none have found him and his sword-blade was stained black. somehow the killing of the moon and wisdom, thoth is the same colour as the originator and guardian deity of horse races. his most distinctive features are the devil's work.
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10:55:16 <wob_jonas> "<__kerbal__> oh, so the clients would connect by telephone? <__kerbal__> that's a neat idea" => ok, great, now I no longer feel like a newbie
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10:57:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure the intercontinental rockets for secure comms are a good idea. countries sometimes get very annoyed when unidentified rockets are shot through their airspace. if you communicate a lot that way, you might accidentally start a war.
11:02:33 <wob_jonas> "<alercah> available constants include: the number of bytes in the source file" => there's something like that used in that dc signature program that breaks if you try to debug it by adding printfs, because it takes the length of certain macros and accesses them as integer constants
11:04:29 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> How do I download version 4.8 of libstdc++6 anyways?" => install a new enough gcc from source
11:04:41 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Also, what do I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to? What is the man page for LD_LIBRARY_PATH?" => the manpage is ld.so
11:04:58 <zzo38> That last question I did figure out myself already at least
11:05:02 <zzo38> (about LD_LIBRARY_PATH)
11:05:36 <wob_jonas> "<fungot> Warrigal_: blind io had got his name because, where his eye. but the sword. ( the light but warm silken stuff that the priesthood are specially favored by the puritans and in the sky who plagued the allied pilots in their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms
11:05:36 <fungot> wob_jonas: multi-player nethack is your turn", as near as might be a doppelganger sent to inflict pain or cause injury. suddenly, a realist in action and a wonderfully beautiful bull.... but all the gods to listen easily.
11:05:36 <wob_jonas> of silver; in their fate, full share had the dead."
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11:46:15 <fizzie> "his most distinctive features are the devil's work."
11:46:19 <fizzie> fungot: Never stop being you.
11:46:19 <fungot> fizzie: dingo: a rock mole is a device that can reach the nether world, so what use is engraving in a long, jointed tail tapering to a shoe; a few things to say why. his expression quickly changed, and also a device used to describe the occasional village through which they passed, meant fever- ridden and tumbledown. twoflower was a flutter of wings at the price tags before buying anything.
11:46:53 <fizzie> TIL: a rock mole is a device that can reach the nether world.
11:53:33 <boily> fungot: feeling abyssal?
11:53:33 <fungot> boily: money to invest? take it to imitate at this catastrophe, or consecration. thor used it to hatch. when carried, it was a time when rincewind had quite liked the iconoscope. he does not have heard of on the widdershin side of the slain, the goddess deprived her of her charms and changed to a very light snack.
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11:59:58 <\oren\> linkin park make nice music but I can't relate to their lyrics at all
12:03:31 <wob_jonas> fungot, how do you treat insect bites?
12:03:31 <fungot> wob_jonas: does your boss know what you're doing right now. while he was the world he shall surely be put to death by some quantum event. if you can't bribe soldier ants.
12:05:09 <\oren\> I usually use calamine since I wouldn't know what to bribe the ants with
12:06:28 <wob_jonas> you bribe them with gold pieces. gold is universally respected as a currency, see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html
12:12:37 <HackEgo> 926) <fungot> Áis523ÎkËÇÏ52Í¿ÉnÐffjliated/ais523: ever tried reading while confused?
12:12:37 <fungot> HackEgo: one has to leave shops before closing time.
12:12:40 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details.//See `? for further details for futher details.
12:13:10 <HackEgo> further details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:13:12 <ais523> at least in NetHack, bribing people with gold only works on a subset of humans
12:13:56 <wob_jonas> (plus a subset of demons, but only for people who don't play in easy mode)
12:14:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCiFO7qV54E
12:14:09 <ais523> I once bribed one of the Castle soldiers to block a corridor for me to stop the rest interfering with me while I looted it
12:14:23 <ais523> I forgot about those as it's a completely different mechanic internally
12:17:00 <wob_jonas> (and leprechauns, sort of, but they return later)
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12:29:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: star-wars: not found
12:29:27 <HackEgo> pan, combine the milk, tomato, cinnamon, and eggs; mix well, and sides of \ fork and process until mixture is smooth. Top with a pasta, \ and roll up. (The seed sandwich in an individual long and cut \ in time of the tips.) In a bowl, mix the lemon juice, and \ onion, and cook. Stir in the cream and salt; pour into soup \ and flour mixture int
12:29:58 <HackEgo> 1/1:Supreme Leader Snoke \ Finn \ Gial Ackbar \ Supreme Leader Snoke \ Sio Bibble
12:30:14 <HackEgo> 1/1:Your Puny Minds Cannot Fathom \ The Pieces Are Coming Together \ Realms Befitting My Majesty \ Every Hope Shall Vanish \ May Civilization Collapse
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14:19:45 <__kerbal__> wait... connecting to a server via telephone is basically just dialup, isn't it
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14:29:21 <__kerbal__> You learn (or remember, or whatever), something new every day!
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15:16:03 <Fungusot> __kerbal__: STOP SPAMMING ME! I'LL EXECUTE YOUR REQUEST IN A SECOND! FOR NOW, I JUST WANT PEACE!
15:16:27 <Fungusot> __kerbal__: STOP SPAMMING ME! I'LL EXECUTE YOUR REQUEST IN A SECOND! FOR NOW, I JUST WANT PEACE!
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15:18:54 <fungot> __kerbal__: ishtar: ishtar ( the prisoner, by j.r.r. tolkien) of scaly lizards, especially the _chameleo vulgaris_ species, with broad girdles that held it glowed with a +5 shovel. ( after the blade itself gleamed like a lizard corpse is guaranteed to be clean enough. ( the lands beyond the world with human beings who not unnaturally showed intense gratitude for the feast of st. brigit. there is a translation of the twilight th
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18:44:18 <__kerbal__> One of my many ideas: You know how many esolangs (the esolangs wiki counts 237 languages that use a tape in some way. although probably not all of them exclusively use one tape for memory), no matter their syntatical differences, use a tape as their memory?
18:45:04 <__kerbal__> What about a framework where you could code in multiple tape-based esolangs within the same document, switching at will? You could start in BF and switch to Integ partway through
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20:12:57 <__kerbal__> You'd basically have a large program in, say, Tapelang, that executes commands by running subprograms in other languages. These subprograms might return a value to TapeLang, allowing TapeLang to have its own logical structures; ideally, however, the programs would interact with one another by modifying the shared tape. A Tellurium program might read a string to the tape, say, and then an Integ program would import a chatbot modu
20:13:45 <__kerbal__> rgb values of the geometric figure that it represents (like a square) and then a Graphical BF program would write the program to the screen.
20:15:03 <__kerbal__> TapeLang would be the glue that allows these languages to coexist in one program
20:15:53 <__kerbal__> (of course, Integ's not a great language for working with strings, but you get my point)
20:16:47 <__kerbal__> In the example I gave, you'd input the name of a shape (like "square") and the program would draw a square, using the combined capabilities of the languages used
20:18:51 <__kerbal__> It'd sort of resemble the .NET framework
20:19:05 <__kerbal__> except the programs are all interpreted
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23:29:09 <alercah> quintopia: are you there? do you run?
23:29:15 <quintopia> there are at least four people shuffling tiles at any time for at least 8 hours every day
23:29:32 <alercah> I know the guy responsible for that
23:30:52 <boily> quinthellopia! hellorcah!
23:32:49 <quintopia> what you doing this weekend boily?
23:33:14 <alercah> not playing mahjong in london with me
23:38:16 <boily> Québec City this weekend, for my dad's birthday ^^
23:38:52 <boily> I shuffled last Sunday. nothing like the good old haneman. 6100 each. mwah ah ah.
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23:48:19 <alercah> boily: came close to a couple baimen
23:49:48 <boily> (uhm... I doubt baimen is the correct plural, but it's cromulent...)
23:54:33 <\oren\> screw it I guess I'm gonna bingewatch spongebob now
23:54:39 <\oren\> I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready
00:06:48 <alercah> can anyone recommend a good linux curses hex editor
00:06:52 <alercah> last one I tried can't delete bytes
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00:07:41 <alercah> can't use vim and xxd like usual because my problem is specifically that vim is being dumb with line endings
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00:10:24 <boily> alercah: have you tried :set backspace=2 ?
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00:13:41 <boily> aurgh. can't delete :(
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00:49:15 <fizzie> Heh. Amazon said they'd be dispatching this order on July 4rd... and true enough, at 23:47 local time they did.
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01:48:21 <__kerbal__> I am still thinking about building TapeLang... what languages should I include?
01:51:13 <__kerbal__> Is that the language with the INFECT command?
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06:37:21 <HackEgo> of//Of this incident we shall never speak again.
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06:43:47 <asie> I've been woken up from my not-being-here
06:43:58 <asie> just briefly, though
06:44:32 * oerjan prepares the zombie spray
06:44:34 <HackEgo> asie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:44:46 <asie> good idea oerjan
06:45:02 <asie> It's mostly because someone contacted me about DOBELA, and I'm said as I was 12 at the time and so remember nothing about my original intentions
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10:22:59 <shachaf> oerjan: I was asking about sorting algorithms that can use three-valued comparison efficiently, or something like that, right?
10:23:06 <shachaf> Is quicksort a good example?
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10:48:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Yep, there's a lot of people talking about how quicksort can be much better with three-way comparison.
10:58:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_national_flag_problem
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11:50:21 <HackEgo> 1/2:spämmer//Spämmers are advertisers of Spämmi, the delicious Finnish fish product. \ resume//A resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment. \ epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of the
11:50:23 <HackEgo> 2/2:m are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. \ rdocscovery//Rdocscoveries include footballs, how bored one person can get, and Budapest.
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15:11:58 <Mew_> https://gyazo.com/e4dc2193464b8cab5aecd2e3b0d4c4db
15:12:01 <Mew_> https://gyazo.com/8db3dad7aee86673922baa992acf9dc1
15:12:05 <Mew_> got variables working
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16:02:03 <int-e> . o O ( please use a pastebin )
16:12:47 <int-e> "The ZeroClipboard library provides an easy way to copy text to the clipboard using an invisible Adobe Flash movie and a JavaScript interface." - I was happier not knowing this.
16:18:16 <int-e> How about this description. "A modern JavaScript utility library delivering modularity, performance & extras."
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16:23:16 <Cale> int-e: https://xkcd.com/763/
16:24:08 <int-e> you're right, I really shouldn't be looking at the gyazo source code.
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16:32:45 <int-e> "Promisification on steroids" http://bluebirdjs.com/docs/features.html
16:32:53 <int-e> it's a whole new world of awfulness!
16:33:45 <int-e> (bluebird may actually be a lesser of the evils... though I'm afraid to look under the hood0
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16:37:43 <HackEgo> olist 1079: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:01:33 <\oren\> github gists are a good pastebin if you plan on editing them
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17:31:00 <\oren\> is this fake news or did I just accidentally planeshift again
17:31:13 <\oren\> Microsoft founder Bill Gates has called on Europe to stop demonstrating generosity towards asylum seekers to avoid an overwhelming migrant influx. He also advises European states to make Africans’ way to the continent much more difficult
17:38:14 <olsner> I think "fake news" is the name for real news, so that's probably not fake news but news that is fake
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17:51:02 <z0d> \oren\: doesn't sound like Bill Gates
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19:37:34 <HackEgo> 1/1:kmc//kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. \ reversal//lasrever \ rain//Rain is a natural bird repellent. Also chickens. \ blsq//See: Burlesque \ myname//myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother.
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20:01:23 <\oren\> brb installing CNN app so I can rate it 0 stars
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22:14:00 <shachaf> Cale: in dystopian 2017, all math homework is multiple-choice
22:14:58 <shachaf> In Hebrew, multiple choice questions are colloquially called "American questions".
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22:57:55 <quintopia> is there a good algorithm to filter signal from repetitious noise
23:00:23 <ais523> I thought I had one a while ago, but after I actually implemented it it turned out not to work
23:00:29 <ais523> either that or I screwed something up
23:01:41 <ais523> my guess at a simple algorithm for doing that, though, would be to start off with a fourier transform of the whole thing, largest component is probably the frequency of the noise
23:01:41 <ais523> then separate the input into sections equal to the period of the noise, take the average of each of those sections, that's going to be pretty close to the noise itself
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23:02:24 <ais523> what's the last you saw? my internet keeps getting disconnected
23:02:39 <fizzie> I already typed "spectral mean subtraction is a classic simple thing for stationary noise" and now you've pretty much obsoleted it.
23:03:10 <ais523> OK, so "<ais523> and then subtract" got through?
23:03:16 <fizzie> Yes, that was the last bit.
23:03:19 <ais523> I have a suspicion that when the "disconnection" happens I can send but not receive
23:03:30 <fizzie> There was also a proper quit from you.
23:03:33 <ais523> come to think of it, the easiest way to tell is the nick I reconnect under
23:03:40 <ais523> because if I reconnect under my own nick, the quit must have got through
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23:04:18 <quintopia> so what if the stream is lines of english text, and each line is either signal or noise entirely
23:05:17 <ais523> normally line noise is fairly easy to determine from English
23:05:23 <ais523> a frequency analysis would be the most obvious way to tell
23:06:07 <quintopia> like, whether the character distribution is similar to average englush text?
23:06:26 <fizzie> The character distribution, or possibly the digram or trigram one if you want fancier.
23:06:32 <ais523> admittedly, I do say things like ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= in conversation occasionally
23:06:37 <fizzie> I've seen at least one paper on language detection that was just character trigrams.
23:06:49 <HackEgo> käsi kyynistäisemmall kuoranasi artiseltä heittavakauempine rostava kassasi laudelmiksi keleväliseksee taus-konstrukti tapautomautteen rakeammetristun kelemmissa nahkiytyimmissa nessäätymiin vällääni ahaavallissani otelevistuvalle rasi kasaiseviltänne
23:06:55 <ais523> but even then, the frequency distribution obviously violates a null hypothesis that all characters are equally probable
23:07:12 <fizzie> Obviously `words sort of "noise" would defeat that.
23:07:23 <quintopia> i think higher character variation could be a good sign of signal in this case
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23:08:11 <fizzie> There's also the compressibility hack, though that might not be appropriate for something as short as a "line".
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23:11:57 <quintopia> as in things are noise if they compress too well or not at all?
23:15:09 <fizzie> Well, depending really on what sort of noise you're expecting. Not at all for something like uniform random characters. Admittedly that's pretty easy to detect otherwise too.
23:23:38 <ais523> random text doesn't compress at all, typically
23:23:50 <ais523> obviously, due to the nature of randomness, it does sometimes, but that's very rare
23:29:07 <fizzie> If it's sampled from a non-uniform distribution, you can have a better encoding for it than a uniform length one.
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23:31:06 <fizzie> ais523: I think I might've had something to say to you about Birmingham, but now I've completely forgotten what it was.
23:31:27 <ais523> fizzie: oh well, it's unlikely I'll be able to produce a useful answer unless you remember the question and let me know what it is
23:31:55 <fizzie> Sorry, upon reflection it was probably York and Taneb instead.
23:32:11 <fizzie> And he's no longer in York either.
23:32:23 <fizzie> Or that's the impression I got anyway.
23:32:50 <ais523> I'm still in Birmingham
23:39:05 <oerjan> . o O ( and despite all this moving around, no uk #esolangers have met yet that i recall )
23:39:59 <ais523> isn't there a theory that the Hexhamers met by accident but didn't recognise each other?
23:40:11 <ais523> Hexham's small enough that there's a decent possibility
23:45:50 <ais523> I haven't been significantly north of the Manchester/Sheffield line, unless you count being in a plane flying to/from Canada
23:46:13 <shachaf> Are you still in Birmingham?
23:46:26 <HackEgo> Birmingham is a city in England. We're planning to turn it into a floating island so ais523 can get around a bit more.
23:46:44 <shachaf> Why doesn't ais523 want to leave Birmingham?
23:46:46 <oerjan> and birmingham is still where it used to be. for now.
23:47:06 <ais523> shachaf: I leave it temporarily every now and then
23:47:21 <ais523> but so far haven't had a good enough reason to move out permanently, and it's unlikely one will happen
23:47:30 <ais523> I'm not very good at living away from home (even if it's just a holiday in a hotel)
23:47:42 <shachaf> Home is where your cat is.
23:48:33 <ais523> and have lived in the same house almost all my life
23:49:03 <ais523> that makes it my home pretty much by default
23:49:16 <ais523> (the first few weeks of my life were spent in a hospital)
23:50:16 <oerjan> __kerbal__: no. `? looks up a particular wisdom, `w a random one.
23:50:32 <HackEgo> ngevd//ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
23:50:55 <oerjan> shachaf: you cannot demonstrate that without ruining your terminal QED
23:50:56 <ais523> OK, that's the difference
23:51:09 <shachaf> That's one of the differences.
23:51:16 <HackEgo> `whoops//`whoops is a repluralizer.
23:51:20 <HackEgo> cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
23:51:39 <shachaf> Why do you want to continue living in the same house?
23:51:55 <shachaf> is this a case of ? shachaf
23:52:09 <ais523> shachaf: moving is very difficult, especially when you have decade's worth of accumulated things
23:52:27 <oerjan> shachaf: i've been tempted to `? shachaf for several minutes.
23:52:34 <ais523> it's sort-of like a hash table, if I need something I'll know where it'll likely be, but accumulating eveyrthing I own would be much harder
23:52:48 <HackEgo> ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ `3:`3 is the obvious generalization of `2 or `4, trying too hard to confuse everyone. \ _46bit:_46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him. \ abnf:Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular
23:53:10 <shachaf> I've never lived in the same house or flat for a decade.
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23:54:58 <shachaf> oerjan: We should fix `5 so that `1 is the obvious generalization of `4.
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23:55:42 <HackEgo> `1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly almost the obvious generalization of `4.
23:55:54 <shachaf> I.e. not make it default to `5 q
23:56:15 <shachaf> ais523: How much is a decadesworth of accumulated things?
23:56:28 <shachaf> I mean, how much time would it take to rehash?
23:56:48 <shachaf> This is the reason I still don't have some furniture here. It seems like it would be difficult to move.
23:57:11 <oerjan> i have still not rehashed after i moved 4 years ago. no idea which bag most of my things are in.
23:57:47 <shachaf> Did you move from Trondheim to Trondheim?
23:57:58 <shachaf> Should I leave the San Francisco Bay area?
23:59:46 <HackEgo> eval "$(shuf -n 1 <<'END' \ \` "$@" |& sport 3 \ cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 3 "$cmd" \ END \ )"
23:59:52 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 4 "$cmd"
00:00:00 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
00:00:11 <HackEgo> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:00:51 <shachaf> Or maybe I should exploit the proletariat to become rich?
00:00:58 <shachaf> Or am I already doing that?
00:00:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
00:02:06 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know, but probably far too long
00:02:17 <oerjan> `slwd bin/`//s,[$]1,$cmd,;1acmd="${1-quote}"
00:02:22 <oerjan> `sled bin/`//s,[$]1,$cmd,;1acmd="${1-quote}"
00:02:24 <HackEgo> bin/`//#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${1-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
00:02:37 <HackEgo> 522) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number by simply looking at it
00:02:49 <HackEgo> 1/1:1087) <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
00:03:38 <HackEgo> `1//`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
00:05:41 <HackEgo> 1/1:909) <fungot> Bike: the best acid? where is it?
00:05:41 <fungot> HackEgo: they say that you can't break an amulet of yendor is a smart move.
00:05:41 <HackEgo> Usage: /hackenv/bin/`^ n cmd
00:08:23 <HackEgo> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:09:44 <fungot> shachaf: they say that a gold doubloon is extremely vain.
00:09:45 <fungot> HackEgo: they say that it's not what you eat. being required to do it, but, trusting his own authority. those children, because i knew this time i meant to scare, but of adjudicating in the _atiku_ festival in babylon, uruk and other quiet games of the fairies rather nasty people to make sense.
00:09:54 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot seems to no longer be ignoring HackEgo
00:09:54 <fungot> oerjan: if you really can't.
00:10:51 <fungot> shachaf: playing billiards pays when you cross it.
00:10:53 <fungot> lambdabot: booksellers never read scrolls; they might not have fiery breath or deadly stings, but none looked aside from the fact that all his soldiers gnashed their teeth, creating a tremendous vice-like bite... piranhas are attracted to any other of the damned to hell.
00:11:13 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:13:02 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
00:13:25 <oerjan> (just testing if any other data was wiped out)
00:14:50 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:15:18 <shachaf> ?where+ test ^ul (?where test)S
00:16:11 <HackEgo> 1/1:629) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
00:16:25 <shachaf> the whole thing is a shambles
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00:27:18 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( lambda ( ignored) fnord)
00:27:33 <fizzie> I had completely forgotten the ignore list isn't persisted automatically.
00:27:57 <fizzie> Normally I reset it when I tell it to join the channel, but after switching to the bouncer thing I don't need to do that after restarting it.
00:28:11 <fizzie> Should probably just save it in the state file too.
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01:40:48 <fungot> __kerbal__: where are you arcfide?
01:42:27 <oerjan> __kerbal__: fungot's bot ignore list had accidentally got cleared.
01:42:27 <fungot> oerjan: thx for link to fnord?"
01:43:13 <oerjan> see explanation in logs.
01:43:18 <ais523> fizzie: how easy is it to make updates to fungot?
01:43:19 <fungot> ais523: godspeed you black emperor! the dead flag blues? trying to find out
01:43:36 <ais523> like, can you remember what all the code does and where you'd need to change to change something
01:44:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:44:51 <shachaf> kmc_: fungot shares your taste in music hth
01:44:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:45:23 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i should like to congratulate mr telkämper. on development issues he is one of the priorities of health, security and defence policy, which is that when the coal and steel treaty for instance that by the end of the colonial and post-colonial period, has become the basis for our sovereignty. common fisheries policy.
01:46:20 <oerjan> alercah: you don't have fallback charset?
01:47:59 <oerjan> alercah: i have recode_fallback = cp1252 as someone suggested on channel
01:48:47 <ais523> what proportion of non-UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters happens to be valid UTF-8?
01:49:45 <shachaf> Do you mean that contains bytes > 127?
01:50:56 <alercah> ais523: what's your sampling methodology?
01:51:12 <HackEgo> _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
01:52:01 <shachaf> no one is answering my question about computable reals tdnh
01:52:12 <ais523> shachaf: I've given up on Stack Exchange
01:52:25 <ais523> the incentives are all in favour of giving fast, incomplete answers to easy questions
01:53:10 <ais523> yes, although stack exchange places huge emphasis on them
01:53:25 <shachaf> I guess it's not just Internet points but also votes and green checkmarks and things.
01:53:37 <ais523> but yes, they give you visibility too
01:53:44 <shachaf> The respect and adoration of friends, colleagues, and strangers.
01:53:54 <shachaf> Gotta keep churning out those answers.
01:53:57 <ais523> and you can just pay 50 reputation to put a question onto a separate list to increase the chance that people see it, so you can convert internet points /into/ visibility
01:54:14 <shachaf> How would you fix Stack Exchange?
01:54:47 <ais523> I've put a lot of thought into that but haven't come to firm conclusions
01:55:22 <ais523> there are some obvious bugs that should just be fixed, like the way that if you make a short post (that gets caught in the low-quality posts filter), then you or anyone else edits it to make it better, it gets an unremovable downvote
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01:55:31 <alercah> ais523: I know someone whose strategy was to answer as quick as possible
01:55:35 <alercah> then refine with a series of edits
01:55:39 <alercah> because of the importance of being first
01:55:43 <ais523> alercah: you have to do that on some sites
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01:56:00 <ais523> if a question was new I got into the habit of posting the answer without explanation first
01:56:03 <ais523> and then editing the explanation in afterwards
01:56:03 -!- __kerbal___ has changed nick to __kerbal__.
01:56:46 <ais523> posting early is so important that even if the answer is wrong, it's likely to get more votes than a correct answer posted later, unless the question becomes very popular
01:56:59 <ais523> exception: the answer does have to at least /look/ right, even if it isn't actually
01:58:38 <ais523> I think one good fix would be to age upvotes, making it so that if a lot of answers get upvoted /over/ an answer (i.e. when both are posted), its score goes down
01:58:46 <ais523> I think another good fix would be to ban voting when posts are sorted by votes
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01:59:49 <ais523> I'd also allow the OP of a question to downvote on it for free, regardless of their rep count, as a quick way of discouraging incorrect answers
02:00:03 <ais523> (most OPs can't actually downvote on their own post due to having <125 rep)
02:00:51 <ais523> I'd probably get rid of badges altogether, as they do more harm than good IMO
02:02:39 <ais523> I think it might be reasonable to get rid of the new questions queue altogether (in preference to the active questions queue), increasing the chance that late answers get seen
02:05:11 * oerjan hugs his fanatic badges
02:07:12 <oerjan> one thing that occasionally irritates me on PPCG is that in very active periods, the active tab gets overfilled while i'm sleeping or out of the house.
02:07:38 <oerjan> (likelihood also depends on my current sleeping cycle)
02:08:57 <oerjan> it's small enough that losing information about new changes _shouldn't_ be necessary.
02:11:10 <oerjan> (i don't check every question, mind you.)
02:11:51 <ais523> hot network questions is also probably broken, although whether it's broken or not depends rather on what its intended purpose is, which is unclear
02:12:11 <ais523> it tends to lower the quality of the sites it links to by rewarding trivial posts
02:12:44 <ais523> and suffers badly from positive feedback (most of the possible interactions for a 101-reputation user with a post increase its HNQ score)
02:13:04 <oerjan> that reminds of some subreddits that explicitly asked _not_ to be on the reddit front page.
02:13:15 <oerjan> for essentially the same reason.
02:14:25 <oerjan> my grammar is leaving ... i can feel it ...
02:14:38 <shachaf> why would anyone want to be on the reddit front page
02:14:42 <ais523> actually, the only interaction I can think of with a post that's possible at 101 reputation and can discourage a post from HNQ listing is flagging, and even then, only if a moderator decides to delete the post
02:15:04 <ais523> shachaf: most communities, forums, etc. benefit from having more good users, that requires the potential good users to be aware of them
02:15:58 <shachaf> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/130032
02:16:07 <shachaf> Does Actually use a nonstandard encoding?
02:16:33 <ais523> probably, most golfing languages do because few standard encodings have 256 distinct printable characters for the 256 octets
02:17:22 <ais523> although all those characters are in the extended-CP437 variant which has a printable glyph over each control code too
02:18:52 <__kerbal__> Maybe someone should make a language where ALL the assigned characters in UTF-8 do something... 2,164,864 commands, here we come!
02:19:12 <__kerbal__> (assuming that every unicode character is assigned eventually)
02:19:19 <ais523> someone tried that on Esolang, but they probably shouldn't have started by making blank pages for each Unicode range
02:19:30 <ais523> listing all the characters and not-yet-assigned for the resulting assignment
02:19:53 <oerjan> <ais523> admittedly, I do say things like ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= in conversation occasionally <-- how do you pronounce it twh
02:19:55 <ais523> from a golfing point of view, though, you don't actually want a very large command set because more commands means more bytes to represent each command
02:20:02 <ais523> or at least, if you do, it should be Huffman coding
02:20:08 <ais523> oerjan: most of my conversations are done typed
02:20:26 <ais523> so often I don't know how a specific word and/or program is pronounced
02:21:19 <ais523> but you'd probably expand command mnemonics into a description, so "unhead equal element each transpose concat each equal"
02:21:30 <__kerbal__> the "increment a by 1, print the value at b + 4, input 5 chars" command could be ޘ
02:22:10 <__kerbal__> assuming a and b and b + 4 are on a stack
02:22:33 <__kerbal__> (I guess b + 4 would be 5 elements down from a)
02:22:58 <fizzie> ais523: It's not *too* bad. I remember the big blocks, and there's even a few comments. It's not written in a particularly compact way, and the larger structures make functional sense.
02:23:25 <fizzie> So you basically have to just decode a dozen-or-so-lines subprogram in order to change things.
02:23:44 <fizzie> Also there's a list at the bottom as to what things are stored where in the fungespace.
02:24:04 <fizzie> (Though that documentation might not quite be up to date.)
02:24:29 <ais523> __kerbal__: https://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode is at least one of them; it's possible it's been attempted more than once though
02:25:29 <oerjan> ais523: that's the one that annoyed ehird, anyway.
02:27:56 <Warrigal_> __kerbal__: not sure what you mean by "assigned character in UTF-8", since the number of Unicode scalar values is only 1,112,064.
02:28:07 <oerjan> __kerbal__: i think it was mostly just the heaps of unassigned characters
02:29:12 <__kerbal__> Warrigal_: I'm not very familiar with Unicode, so I just pulled that number off of Google without doing enough research, admittedly
02:30:12 <Warrigal_> Must have come from this answer... https://stackoverflow.com/a/38488358/1108505
02:30:21 <ais523> the maximum Unicode codepoint is 1114111, which is a very easy number to remember
02:30:38 <ais523> but many numbers in the 0..1114111 range aren't assigned, and some are officially never going to be assigned
02:30:44 <Warrigal_> The number of code points which UTF-8 *actually* supports is 1,112,064; they're exactly the Unicode scalar values.
02:31:01 <ais523> the "these characters will never be assigned" values are sometimes not included in the total
02:31:36 <Warrigal_> The total number of Unicode code points is 1,114,112, and every Unicode code point has an "obvious" UTF-8 encoding, but 2,048 of them are prohibited.
02:31:36 <ais523> (strangely, IIRC 1114111 itself is one of them, not 100% sure on that though)
02:31:58 <ais523> Warrigal_: wait, /just/ surrogates?
02:32:02 <ais523> what about things like the byte-flipped BOM?
02:32:12 <ais523> that one is prohibited for an obvious reason :-D
02:32:15 <Warrigal_> I'm *pretty* sure that's legal to encode in UTF-8.
02:32:25 <Warrigal_> It's not a legal *character*, of course.
02:33:41 <ais523> if that's legal, I don't see why the surrogates wouldn't be too
02:33:59 <Warrigal_> Lemme see if I can find the official word.
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> "The Unicode Standard supports three character encoding forms: UTF-32, UTF-16, and
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> UTF-8. Each encoding form maps the
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> Unicode code points U+0000..U+D7FF and
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> U+E000..U+10FFFF to unique code unit sequences."
02:36:14 <ais523> what /is/ that whitespace made of?
02:36:52 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
02:36:54 <HackEgo> [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET]
02:37:22 <ais523> hmm, it didn't really highlight like pairs of spaces, but I guess it is
02:38:04 <Warrigal_> Anyway, that's the official word. All Unicode scalar values are legal for encoding, and nothing else is.
02:42:31 <Warrigal_> All right, I'm trying to implement mathematics in Lua.
02:42:48 <Warrigal_> Right now I'm writing the definition of a category.
02:43:17 <Warrigal_> add_eqn('_identity_domain', domain .. identity, object.id)
02:44:50 <Warrigal_> Which means: "The axiom '_identity_domain' asserts that taking the domain of the identity morphism of an object is the same as performing the identity operation on that object."
02:44:57 <oerjan> Warrigal_: give a shout when you get around to inter-universal teichmüller theory twh
02:46:38 <Warrigal_> Now, I want to be able to read and write axioms such as this one pointfully.
02:46:50 <Warrigal_> This axiom currently pretty-prints as:
02:46:51 <Warrigal_> _identity_domain : domain . identity = 1_object;
02:47:00 <Warrigal_> But I'd rather it pretty-print as, say:
02:47:15 <Warrigal_> _identity_domain : forall (x : object), domain(identity(x)) = x;
02:51:59 <shachaf> Did you see my comment about quicksort?
02:52:16 <shachaf> I was reading about quicksort and as far as I can tell every single implementation of it is misguided?
02:54:15 <Warrigal_> Nyow, how am I going to implement the pointfulness thing.
02:54:35 <Warrigal_> I guess I can start by implementing... expressions.
02:55:07 <Warrigal_> An expression has a context and blah blah blah blah blah.
02:58:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear it's not even O(n log n)
02:59:09 <Warrigal_> Hey, I thought of a question once.
02:59:11 -!- Warrigal_ has changed nick to t_swett.
02:59:15 <t_swett> And I thought it was an interesting question.
02:59:27 <t_swett> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2071246/how-many-rounds-are-required-in-a-swiss-tournament-sorting-algorithm
03:00:25 <shachaf> oerjan: you're not even O(n log n) hth
03:00:28 <t_swett> "You're organizing a Swiss-style tournament with N players of a game.
03:00:34 <t_swett> "The game is a two-player game, and it results in one winner and one loser. The players are totally ordered by skill, and whenever two players play against each other, the more skilled player always wins.
03:00:39 <t_swett> "In each tournament round, each player can play only one game. Going into the tournament, nothing is known about the relative skill levels of the players. The pairings for each round are not decided until the previous round has finished, so you can use the results from previous rounds when you're deciding how to pair the players up. You are not required to follow any traditional pairing rules.
03:00:43 <shachaf> let { h = n; t = log } in hth
03:00:45 <t_swett> "Your goal is to completely determine the ranking of all N players. What is Swiss(N), the number of rounds required in the worst case?"
03:02:04 <t_swett> The answerer here stated that "asking for the number of tournaments Swiss(n) is the same as asking for the span of an optimal parallel sorting network."
03:02:50 <shachaf> I think that's been discussed here before.
03:03:29 <shachaf> Ah, but you're saying it might be more flexible than a sorting network?
03:03:54 <t_swett> I don't see any reason why this couldn't give, say, a 95% speed up in the limit as N goes to infinity.
03:03:59 <shachaf> Doesn't seem like you can get much out of that, but I don't know.
03:04:01 <t_swett> ...I meant to say a 5% speed up.
03:04:10 <t_swett> A 95% speed up seems kind of extreme.
03:04:27 <shachaf> You should measure slowness, not speed.
03:04:59 <shachaf> Anyway, you should figure out how to write quicksort for me.
03:06:11 <shachaf> Everyone is passing the wrong argument: They pass 0,n-1 instead of 0,n
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03:11:17 <ais523> t_swett: you clearly need at least ceil(log_2(N)) to determine the winner, worst-case; so that gives a lower bound
03:11:28 <ais523> however I don't think it's always possible to determine the places in between that quickly
03:13:17 <t_swett> ais523: yeah, I calculated that at least log2(N!)/⌊N/2⌋ rounds are required.
03:13:51 <ais523> oh, because otherwise there are fewer unique resultsets than there are orders
03:14:36 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..]
03:14:38 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘b0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M869356298349...
03:14:38 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show b0)’ from being solved.
03:14:47 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Double]
03:14:49 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Integral Double)
03:14:49 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘swisslower’
03:15:07 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..fromIntegral n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Double]
03:15:09 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.584962500721156,2.2924812503605785,3.4534452978042594,3.1639510321098...
03:15:38 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: ceil
03:16:06 <t_swett> So for N = 2, 3, 4, we get lower bounds of 1, 3, 3, which I found are exact.
03:16:20 <t_swett> For N = 5 and 6, we get lower bounds of 4 and 4.
03:17:01 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
03:17:25 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = ceiling (log (product [1..fromIntegral n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2)) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Int]
03:17:27 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,6,5,6,6,6,6,7,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,7,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,9...
03:17:40 <ais523> I like the dismonotonies, but they make sense
03:18:13 <t_swett> Hmm, is it actually possible that Swiss isn't monotonic?
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03:18:20 <ais523> although the /actual/ value must be monotonic
03:18:26 <ais523> imagine adding a dummy player who loses every game
03:18:28 <ais523> then removing them at the end
03:18:58 <t_swett> I knew you could add a dummy player, but I wasn't immediately sure how that would actually affect stuff.
03:19:33 <t_swett> That any strategy that works for 6 players also works for 5 players?
03:19:56 <t_swett> Whenever we're supposed to pit someone against the dummy player, we instead just give that person a bye and assume that they won.
03:20:21 <t_swett> It is, in fact, possible to have a player who's worse than everyone else, so we're not losing anything here or whatever.
03:20:23 <shachaf> It makes you look like another person who has _ in their nick in the same place.
03:20:59 <ais523> preusmably b_jonas is the other person
03:21:04 <ais523> whose nick has a similar shape
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03:21:24 <shachaf> I didn't even think of b_jonas.
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04:10:11 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/a/6TibM
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04:30:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you read irc or just twitter twh
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05:46:02 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+DanPiponi/posts/RpwQAD4jTrb
05:56:08 <copumpkin> shachaf: rarely IRC nowadays except for a couple of channels a bit more often (but not very often still) :)
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13:08:06 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╔════ ╔════ ╔════╗ ═══╦═══ ╔════ ╔════╗ ═══╦═══ ╔════
13:08:17 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╠════ ╚═══╗ ║ ║ ║ ╠════ ╠═╦══╝ ║ ║
13:08:27 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╚════ ════╝ ╚════╝ ║ ╚════ ║ ╚═ ═══╩═══ ╚════
13:17:00 <int-e> well 5 lines are spam, especially when they become 10: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ugh.png
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14:08:07 <fizzie> Uh-oh, the wiki seems to be down.
14:08:25 <fizzie> On the positive side, at least this time I got an alert email about it.
14:09:57 <fizzie> On the negative side, it's not answering to SSH and I don't have access to the CaC control panels, so it's not like there's anything I can do, except mention Gregor by name in case he can poke at it.
14:10:31 <int-e> . o O ( Do not invoke the name of Gregor in vain. )
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14:11:20 <int-e> . o O ( Okay, next time I should check whether HackEgo is present before trying `ping. )
14:16:34 <myname> interesting, the 5 spam libes look horrible here
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14:34:52 <__kerbal__> I guess that I should use a pastebin the next time I have an overwhelming urge to create character art
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17:39:29 <\oren\> when the fog rolls in from the bog, there are frogs and logs in prague
17:40:05 <LKoen> are the logs light enough to be carried by the fog?
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17:41:36 <\oren\> i dunno I was thinking there should be a children's book that teaches kids european jografy
17:43:00 <\oren\> because apparently even most adults don't know where prague is
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18:18:16 <wob_jonas> If I make an esoteric language, it's ok if I write code that is less efficient but shows off the abstraction capabilities of the programming language better, right?
18:19:42 <wob_jonas> In particular, I want to implement arithmetic in the core language (to show that it's possible, even though it would be better to add fast arithmetic functions in the interpreter itself). The best way would be by various unrolled fixed size loops with large repetitive tables,
18:20:01 <wob_jonas> but instead I'll try to write short human-readable code that does arithmetic much slower.
18:20:19 <wob_jonas> I guess I should just note that in comments/.
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18:24:53 <wob_jonas> I will have to implement integer division too
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18:53:12 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's like "The evolution of a Haskell programmer"
18:56:39 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I have a suspicion that when the "disconnection" happens I can send but not receive" => that happens to me too
18:58:25 <int-e> It used to happen to lambdabot too... now it's sending regular ping messages to detect the situation.
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19:07:22 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not very good at living away from home (even if it's just a holiday in a hotel) / and have lived in the same house almost all my life" => me neither. I just spent two and a half weeks away, which
19:08:47 <wob_jonas> is quite a long time as these things go, but it was easy mode because I was visiting my brother and stayed in his house. I moved out from my parents one and a half years ago, so this is the third house I live in permanently (but I have spent a significant amount of time in my parent's summer cottage too).
19:11:23 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> shachaf: moving is very difficult, especially when you have decade's worth of accumulated things" => indeed: a lot of my accumulated stuff (including books) is still in my parent's house.
19:14:39 <wob_jonas> also, I moved out in easy mode: to the same city and into an apartment where my brother has previously lived and they have restored it really well so I can trust the apartment
19:19:50 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> what proportion of non-UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters happens to be valid UTF-8?" - almost no text is accidentally valid utf-8 as far as I've seen,
19:20:25 <wob_jonas> but there's a certain text compression scheme whose compressed form is deliberately valid utf-8
19:21:53 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> the incentives are all in favour of giving fast, incomplete answers to easy questions" - sure, but that's a general problem that happens a lot outside of SE too
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19:28:32 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> although all those characters are in the extended-CP437 variant which has a printable glyph over each control code too" => EXTENDED? that's the original version. cp437 is what the CGA and monochrome cards, the video cards always had all 256 characters in text mode,
19:29:41 * oerjan isn't sure that ais523 logreads.
19:29:43 <wob_jonas> although some printer control languages and some PC software use text formats that allow you to use only a subset, with teletype-like control codes (where at least carriage return is a control char)
19:30:58 <pikhq> My understanding is that "is this valid UTF-8" is more-or-less a perfect heuristic for detecting UTF-8 text.
19:31:10 <pikhq> Unlike most other encoding schemes.
19:32:20 <wob_jonas> pikhq: no, it does fail for some stuff with only ascii bytes
19:32:23 <shachaf> Among what other encodings?
19:32:30 <wob_jonas> but ais523 did ask for stuff with non-ascii bytes
19:32:35 <pikhq> Okay, okay, "is this valid UTF-8 and not ASCII".
19:32:37 <shachaf> It doesn't work for any other seven-bit encoding presumably.
19:33:01 <pikhq> Though if it's all 7 bit, then frankly you can just assume it's US-ASCII and *probably* be right.
19:33:04 <pikhq> shachaf: Quite nice.
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19:33:41 <pikhq> (I know there are many, many other 7 bit charsets, but who actually *uses* them outside of closed environments?)
19:34:37 <pikhq> US-ASCII is the MIME preferred name, so that's what I use.
19:34:46 <shachaf> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI
19:34:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, it's called iso646 encodings
19:34:50 <pikhq> There are non-US ASCII-like charsets.
19:35:16 <pikhq> US-ASCII is the ISO-646 US encoding.
19:35:51 <wob_jonas> ASCII also has some fancy name with an X and a number in it
19:36:08 <pikhq> Rather a lot of countries have their own similar but not quite ASCII-compatible encodings.
19:36:51 <pikhq> *These*, incidentally, are actually the origin for C trigraphs.
19:37:06 <pikhq> The characters represented by trigraphs are not guaranteed to be invariant in ISO-646.
19:37:53 <pikhq> It just so happens that IBM's mainframes are the only actual users now, because IBM still *uses* charsets where they aren't guaranteed to exist, or can vary from charset to charset.
19:39:12 <wob_jonas> yes, although there's also the 7-bit SMS character set, which sort of looks like an iso-646 because the brackets are replaced, but it also puts printable characters to most of the control character codes
19:39:26 <pikhq> Though they do say that if you run C stuff without the charset being a CP 1047 compatible one, stuff breaks.
19:40:05 <pikhq> 's variants guarantee the ASCII set exists and is encoded identically. Those are used in the IBM mainframe POSIX environment, generally)
19:40:15 <pikhq> True, but that's the very definition of a closed system.
19:40:44 <pikhq> And you will never need a heuristic to detect the SMS charset in use; it's marked in the packet.
19:43:24 <pikhq> One of the options is "unspecified 8-bit charset".
19:53:07 <fizzie> oerjan: See few hours back re the machine being down.
19:54:43 <fizzie> I took the name of Gregor in not-vain on channel already, though "idle: 11 days 10 hours 47 mins 19 secs" does not fill me with confidence.
19:54:50 <wob_jonas> Here's a challenge. Without looking at Knuth's TAOCP, using only secondary resources instead, try to find evidence that in the MIX computer, the CMPA and CMP1 instructions with field specification compares the selected field of rA or rI1 resp, rather than the entire rA or rI1 resp.
19:55:41 <wob_jonas> I've googled for this, and the various informal descriptions of MIX out there on the internet always omit this curious detail. This came up because I'll try to write an entry on the esowiki for MIX.
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20:04:45 <__kerbal__> Here's the box drawing I made earlier, but WITHOUT spamming the channel this time: https://paste.ubuntu.com/25033876/
20:05:24 <__kerbal__> By box-drawing I mean box-drawing character drawing
20:11:53 <wob_jonas> "<\oren\> i dunno I was thinking there should be a children's book that teaches kids european jografy" => don't they do that in school? or do you mean to American kids or something?
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20:14:57 <int-e> reminsds me of http://sergiu.turcanu.net/wp-content/uploads/america.gif
20:19:04 <int-e> Gregor Gregor Gregor
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20:19:19 <Gregor> Whatever is up with the server, I haven't the power to fix it right now. Kicking it did nothing.
20:19:52 <wob_jonas> do you know who has the power to fix it?
20:19:54 <int-e> thanks for trying anyway
20:20:05 <Gregor> I have the most power to fix it of anybody who gives a shit ;)
20:20:18 <int-e> (i.e. anybody not CaC?)
20:20:27 <Gregor> But even the web control panel for CaC is barely functioning, so I assume they're aware.
20:20:37 <shachaf> I thought someone in here had switched away from it.
20:20:57 <pikhq> It's kinda crud, so...
20:21:08 <int-e> shachaf: I did, well, I canceled the toy CaC VM because it would continuously cost money.
20:21:13 <lambdabot> *** "crud" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:21:13 <lambdabot> n 1: heavy wet snow that is unsuitable for skiing
20:21:13 <lambdabot> 2: any substance considered disgustingly foul or unpleasant
20:21:14 <lambdabot> 3: an ill-defined bodily ailment; "he said he had the crud and
20:21:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't see the nautical metaphor.
20:23:14 <int-e> I don't know how many of these VMs Gregor has... might be worth the money even with their lousy service, assuming the VMs run at all. (The fee, I understood, is per account, not per server)
20:24:01 <int-e> http://www.cloudatacost.com/ ... oops, I mean http://www.cloudatcost.com/ (look at the former link though, it's a fun read)
20:24:40 <shachaf> I don't understand why it's called "at cost" and then charges you a one-time fee.
20:25:03 <pikhq> To be frank, you could probably get a better experience hanging a Pi off a cable modem.
20:25:21 <Gregor> int-e: Yeah, it's still SLIGHTLY worth it for me, but I have been slowly moving things away.
20:25:41 <shachaf> Is that supposed to be the full discounted cost?
20:25:54 <shachaf> Maybe you should move it all to Google Cloud.
20:26:02 <shachaf> Unlike fizzie you're permitted to use it.
20:26:03 <int-e> shachaf: I always thought it was a pyramid scheme.
20:26:15 <int-e> Well, Ponzi may be closer. But fraudulent anyway.
20:28:03 <__kerbal__> So, they will give you a virtual server for a pittance? That sounds scammy
20:28:14 <shachaf> The trick to learning Chinese characters is that it's easy to remember them if you invent several new characters for each one you memorize.
20:28:27 <pikhq> It's also a pittance of a virtual server.
20:28:55 <__kerbal__> They must have REALLY bad service, then
20:28:56 <Gregor> It's not really a scam, it just is really "you get what you pay for", particularly in terms of uptime and support.
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20:30:19 <shachaf> More of a scow than a scam.
20:32:43 <int-e> . o O ( their order form includes scripts from fraudlabspro.com ... too funny in context )
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20:35:34 <int-e> but the part that I do consider fraudulent is that they don't mention the yearly fee anywhere in the order form, calling it "one time" payment (quotation marks are theirs, for what it's worth). You still have to read their terms of service up to point 9.18 to find out about them. Though 1.b.iii) should make you wary: "CloudatCost reserves the right to change fees or charges without notice to...
20:35:39 <int-e> ...you. Your continued use of the Service after a change in fees shall constitute your acceptance of such change in fees."
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20:36:16 <int-e> same VM, I believe
20:37:55 <__kerbal__> (Of course, they are really slow to load from all the ads)
20:38:21 <int-e> "cloud" is such a vague term.
20:39:10 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: not without javascript they aren't.
20:39:27 <int-e> Some people will call any VPS a cloud server.
20:40:06 <__kerbal__> int-e: I guess I mean hosted at a server local to none of the users
20:43:47 <int-e> who knows where they actually are... they use the fastly CDN
20:47:30 <__kerbal__> Has the wiki ever been backed up in the last few years? I know it did wiki-dumps at one point
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20:51:06 <int-e> But it seems that they are big enough that they should be running their own servers. Apparently they used to share wikimedia infrastructure.
20:51:26 <oerjan> fizzie supposedly takes backups.
20:51:30 <int-e> I believe fizzie mentioned having backups
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21:06:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would firstly like to state this publicly.
21:06:19 <__kerbal__> I guess fungot is not on the affected server?
21:06:20 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, for me, of a multilateral system; that, thanks, purely, to trade barriers, combined with maintaining the key principles behind our proposals for decoupling and modulation of direct aid by the member states and to give farmers a long-term political perspective. this amendment is admissible. the french proposal refers only to judges in the criminal law and criminal procedure. in cases where the offences
21:07:27 <oerjan> fungot is not cloudy at all
21:07:27 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, i have no difficulty in accepting this, we should consider reducing the level of contamination. while some had a legitimate purpose to improve financial management. it now remains to be seen in this house.
21:07:58 <fungot> __kerbal__: madam president, the commission underlined the fact that it would be sending out a completely negative signal and a sombre message. more attention to this deficiency, as i have said, the adoption of the framework for the european union
21:08:55 <__kerbal__> is the president a mr or a madam? Make up your mind, fungot
21:08:55 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, it is something which will help control greenhouse gases in the european commission' s policy is not a priority.
21:09:43 <__kerbal__> Ok, so I guess that the contamination is "greenhouse gases in the european commission' s policy." Good to know
21:11:01 <oerjan> now we know what all that hot air really is
21:13:35 <int-e> are you talking about belching and farting?
21:14:48 <__kerbal__> Maybe the eurocommission is composed of cows
21:19:15 <wob_jonas> I think the esowiki only broke a few days ago though
21:21:11 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Calculus is mostly derivative. )
21:22:24 <__kerbal__> Oh, right. HackEgo is integral to accessing wisdoms
21:23:14 <int-e> hackego timed out about 9 hours ago.
21:23:26 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: to writing them. for reading them, there's a separately hosted pdf file. wisdom/pdf has the url of that file.
21:23:38 <int-e> __kerbal__: "integral", nice. (even if accidental)
21:24:37 <__kerbal__> int-e: I actually did intend to make that pun...
21:25:18 <int-e> You just had to use an ellipsis there.
21:26:24 <__kerbal__> Are you the determinant of my writing style?
21:26:32 <__kerbal__> (That linear algebra one was a bit forced)
21:26:53 <fizzie> I do have backups. Most recently from Tuesday.
21:27:43 <fizzie> I've used them to set up a temporary read-only copy on one of my own machines twice, when we've been having Problems.
21:29:17 <lambdabot> EGLL 062020Z AUTO 29007KT 9999 NCD 27/15 Q1012 NOSIG
21:29:28 <fizzie> It's so hot these days. :/
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21:30:09 <__kerbal__> The wiki's eigenvalues are imaginary of control
21:30:25 <fizzie> I've also got a copy in a bank vault back in Finland, but that's not updated more than maybe once a year.
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21:34:10 <fizzie> I don't know what the English term for it is for one of those little locker boxes you rent from a bank.
21:34:50 <fizzie> "A safe-deposit box lives within the vault of a federally insured bank or credit union."
21:35:29 <wob_jonas> yeah, but those cost a shitton to rent
21:35:40 <fizzie> Well, I've got one of them anyway.
21:35:53 <fizzie> I do have other things in there than just the Esolangs wiki backup.
21:36:19 <fizzie> (It's also something like... between 5-10 euros a month?)
21:37:13 <fizzie> I seem to recall from the logs that a few people do a periodic copy of the XML dump we publish, so the wiki *contents* are probably quite redundantly stored. But my copies are likely the only ones with user accounts included.
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00:01:52 <fizzie> I set up the read-only backup copy, with two caveats. Firstly, I still hadn't changed the TTLs, so it will take up to a day for the DNS change to propagate. Secondly, the TLS certificate on it has expired, and I can't letsencrypt a new one until the DNS changes go through.
00:02:36 <fizzie> But you may be able to browse the wiki at http://esolangs.zem.fi/
00:07:29 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:07:30 <fizzie> Now I need some sort of a way to notice when (if) it comes back up, so I know how to undo this.
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01:37:15 <tswe_tt> It just occurred to me that I can probably kill Warrigal.
01:39:03 <tswe_tt> Oh, Warrigal isn't a registered nickname.
01:39:09 -!- tswe_tt has changed nick to tswett.
01:40:22 <boily> meanwhile, MWAH AH AH AH AH.
01:40:30 <boily> firestarter. I *love* that artifact.
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01:46:41 <boily> everything explodes everywhere! ludicrous flaming gibs!
01:46:50 <boily> MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!!!
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02:34:54 <ski> hello shachaf
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02:37:14 <ski> atm i'm rather sleepy. about to head for bed
02:37:27 <lambdabot> Local time for ski is Fri Jul 7 03:37:26 2017
02:37:40 <ski> say again ?
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03:05:35 <imode> is the wiki being hijacked?
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03:22:49 <Hoolootwo> http://esolangs.zem.fi/ is a mirror
03:23:49 <imode> I'm getting cert errors when trying to connect to it.
03:24:14 <imode> annnd it's back up.
03:24:44 <fizzie> I've put up a local, read-only copy.
03:25:08 <fizzie> 00:01 <fizzie> I set up the read-only backup copy, with two caveats. Firstly, I still hadn't changed the TTLs, so it will take up to a day for the DNS change to propagate. Secondly, the TLS certificate on it has expired, and I can't letsencrypt a new one until the DNS changes go through.
03:25:23 <fizzie> Hence the certificate issues.
03:26:19 <fizzie> (The VPS it normally runs on is being unresponsive.)
03:27:41 <fizzie> https://www.reddit.com/r/CloudAtCost/comments/6llch0/all_servers_down_panelcloudatcostcom_not_available/
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03:33:20 <imode> well this looks like a scam....
03:34:35 <fizzie> There's really nothing new about that, but we've been coasting by with what we've got.
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03:35:11 <shachaf> Nothing new about it looking like a scam?
03:35:21 <fizzie> (Also I don't own the VPS, I just run the wiki on it. So I don't e.g. have access to that control panel, even if it was working.)
03:36:42 <fizzie> On the positive side, I managed to renew the certificate (the temporary DNS changes had propagated to whatever letsencrypt used for the domain validation), so if you're getting the non-broken address, https://esolangs.org/ should be working again.
03:40:10 <fizzie> I'd give CaC reasonable chances of still coming back from the dead. It was down for a few days a while back as well, but reappeared.
03:42:32 <shachaf> has it clawed its way back from the dead before
03:49:23 <pikhq> I'd be a bit questionable, considering that all-of-a-sudden $9 service charge seems like *exactly* the sort of thing you do when your business model has failed utterly.
03:49:42 <pikhq> Along with reports that people have had trouble cancelling service.
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03:51:30 <ais523> what was their original plan for making money?
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03:52:45 <shachaf> Charge people a bunch of money and then turn off the service after a while?
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03:52:57 <shachaf> Or scam them with a monthly fee that you add on without telling them.
03:54:05 <fizzie> As I understand it, they're corporationally part of something that does make money, or at least in partnership with.
03:54:18 <fizzie> http://ventures.fibernetics.ca/cloud-at-cost/
03:54:26 <shachaf> fizzie: Ah, so it's like most of Alphabet?
03:54:39 <pikhq> They might've assumed they could be able to get enough word of mouth that more regular-cost-structure services could take off later?
03:54:47 <fizzie> I don't know if their business model can be understood in isolation, but I also don't know how it would make sense in conjunction with Fibernetics either.
03:56:28 <fizzie> "It began as part of an internal side project aimed at rekindling the entrepreneurial spirit within an established 200-employee tech company. Less than a year later, Cloud at Cost – a hosting service with a $35 one-time fee and no monthly bill – has raked in $1 million without any marketing, and injected fresh energy into Fibernetics, --"
03:56:33 <fizzie> http://news.communitech.ca/columns/cloud-at-cost-injects-fibernetics-with-startup-energy
03:56:56 <fizzie> That was written when the "no monthly bill" part was more true.
03:57:50 <shachaf> Maybe their business model should be not to allow anyone in Europe to use their services.
03:58:58 <fizzie> "The 11,000-square-foot facility boasts a data centre filled with servers and related equipment Fibernetics was able to acquire at deep discounts, and a rooftop solar array that generates more power than the operation uses. The servers access the same network upon which Fibernetics’ Internet and phone business is based. -- “That really gave us the unfair advantage to go ahead against other [cloud]
03:59:04 <fizzie> companies that have to pay for space and power and Internet and all those things.”"
04:01:58 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind running the thing on something more reasonable, but that would involve paying money, and I've already gotten into discussions re fronting the bill for the domain. VPSes tend to be about an order of magnitude more expensive than domains.
04:03:28 <pikhq> All that said, it's entirely possible that all that's going on is they've had issues and the entire side project is a very low priority.
04:05:11 <fizzie> Anyhoo, time to go sweat^W sleep.
04:05:16 <fizzie> (It's 27 degrees indoors.)
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04:54:14 <Hoolootwo> I don't think I can currently volunteer to host it, maybe once I get a server into a colo somwhere
04:54:48 <ais523> Hoolootwo: with MediaWiki the problem is mostly CPU power, not bandwidth
04:54:54 <ais523> it's much more CPU-hungry than you might expect
04:56:31 <ais523> my guess is that it's fairly badly written, and in PHP at that (which is not the most optimized language)
04:58:05 <shachaf> Maybe they should switch to Hack.
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05:21:11 <imode> has there ever been any practical two dimensional language?
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05:21:27 <imode> or N-dimensional where N > 1
05:21:48 <shachaf> Practical or merely not intended to be esoteric?
05:22:01 <imode> heh, both I suppose.
05:22:07 <shachaf> Epigram 2 was going to have 2-dimensional syntax.
05:22:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether that really counts.
05:22:38 <imode> 2D syntax huh? do you have some examples of it?
05:22:43 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_(programming_language)
05:22:54 <shachaf> Or maybe even Epigram 1 had it?
05:23:28 <imode> oh wow. so it actually has diagrams..
05:23:52 <shachaf> And of course there's http://www.eelis.net/C++/analogliterals.xhtml
05:26:18 <imode> I've just been wondering if there's any use for a language with syntax/a computational model that can be extended to multiple dimensions.
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05:26:39 <imode> excel comes to mind. as does the TIS-100.
05:27:03 <imode> but those only really showcase two dimensions.
05:28:00 <imode> something that springs to mind regarding 3D would be snapmap.
05:28:07 <imode> (in the recent Doom 2016.)
05:30:31 <shachaf> Do you count cellular automata as programming languages?
05:30:44 <imode> I suppose, but that's a little easy.
05:30:57 <shachaf> Aren't easy answers better than hard answers?
05:31:10 <shachaf> Are there any popular 3D cellular automata?
05:31:10 <imode> true, but often easy answers don't give way to deeper thought. :P
05:31:21 <shachaf> Also: Are there "automata" which are continuous?
05:31:26 <imode> apart from weird von-neumann-esq. CAs, not sure.
05:31:31 <imode> and yeah, smoothlife.
05:31:34 <shachaf> I think there are ones that have continuous cell states rather than a set number of colors.
05:31:40 <shachaf> But what about continuous cell boundaries?
05:31:52 <shachaf> I.e. a function or something rather than discrete cells.
05:31:53 <imode> here's another interesting question: code reuse, what happens in "space"?
05:32:13 <shachaf> I was thinking that there's nothing about Hashlife that particularly depends on discreteness.
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05:32:28 <shachaf> And in fact it's almost more suitable to continuous spaces.
05:33:01 <imode> yeah, you could use hashlife on smoothlife.
05:33:15 <wob_jonas> Actually Excel is more like 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional, because it supports ranges spanning through worksheets, where the order of worksheets matter.
05:33:34 <imode> ah, I was curious if it supported that.
05:33:56 <shachaf> Oh, Smoothlife is not what I thought.
05:33:57 <wob_jonas> There's much more support for 2 dimensional stuff than for 3 dimensions, such as specific functions and operators, but still.
05:34:03 <imode> what happens to code reuse in higher-dimensional environments?
05:34:24 <shachaf> Does our universe, as far as we know, lend itself to Hashlife-style simulation?
05:34:51 <shachaf> The speed of light suggests that it might.
05:35:13 <shachaf> But quantum effects might not be compatible with locality.
05:35:56 <shachaf> But if so, they're incompatible in a very particular way. Maybe it's a way that can still be simulated efficiently?
05:43:42 <imode> what would be REALLY interesting is an N-dimensional language adapted to an arbitrary vector space.
05:43:56 <imode> control flow becomes transformations.
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05:45:22 <Cale> imode: That's... pretty much a quantum computer
05:45:41 <Cale> Not quite an arbitrary vector space there, but arbitrary dimension anyway
05:50:33 <imode> my problem with languages with a spatial syntax is that it's hard to include/replicate code.
05:51:00 <imode> I can only imagine the horrors of constructing CA-based programs. incredibly fragile things.
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05:55:37 <shachaf> Constructing physics-based programs is also pretty tricky.
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06:05:41 <imode> I could believe that you could turn any N-dimensional program into a traditional, textual program by the inclusion of coordinates/bounding boxes.
06:05:57 <imode> (x, y, z, <object>), ...
06:06:24 <imode> that way you could design the program and serialize it.
06:12:25 <shachaf> imode: just store it as a quadtree like hashlife hth
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08:25:44 * imode still wonders how code re-use would work in a higher dimensional language.
08:27:26 <imode> with traditional programs you can just bolt multiple code segments together and give a couple entry points.
08:27:55 <imode> gluing together segments of a plane isn't as.. easy. you need to have some sort of isolation.
08:31:09 <shachaf> Isn't a similar thing true in a one-dimensional language like bf as well?
08:32:21 <shachaf> A traditional program is something like a graph, where you can make an edge pointing to any name.
08:32:41 <shachaf> I suppose you could have a 2D language that requires the graph to be planar.
08:32:53 <imode> you'd end up with something like wireworld.
08:33:08 <imode> maybe something like an N-dimensional excel.
08:33:43 <imode> where regions of space can be occupied by code with its own instruction pointer.
08:35:03 <imode> I remember seeing a "robust-first computing" video or something where the guy designed a filter out of small probabilistic particles... lemme get that.
08:40:49 <imode> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=helScS3coAE quite long, but an interesting take on "programming" with a virtual environment with inputs and outputs.
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10:26:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: Backup wiki at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
10:27:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: Backup wiki (readonly) at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
10:28:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: Backup wiki (readonly) at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | mermaid umpires | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
10:36:03 <fizzie> shachaf: "In the European Union and Russia, Google Cloud Platform services can be used only for business purposes." Hey, maybe Brexit means I can use it.
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11:10:08 <wob_jonas> Speedrunning stuff: Summer Games Done Quick crew has already started to upload videos of the first games of SGDQ to youtube. After SGDQ, there are more speedrunning marathons this summer:
11:11:21 <wob_jonas> handheld heroes (gameboy games, on in second half of twitch.tv/speedgaming , no physical conference) starting 2017-07-15, then ESA (European Speedrun Assembly) in july in Vaxjö, then I hear there's something in august in america.
11:11:24 <fizzie> There have been bootleg copies of the SGDQ runs in YouTube for a while already. ;)
11:11:38 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, encodes of the twitch videos
11:11:55 <wob_jonas> but these are the first official encodes (I'm not sure if they're the final official encodes)
11:12:38 <fizzie> There's that thing which does them automatically, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfqRJEB9cDt4j_RqRXg0ABA/videos
11:12:54 <fizzie> TBH, watching them like that was preferrable to watching Twitch in real time, it was freezing for seconds all the time. At least when I tried.
11:14:04 <wob_jonas> twitch freezes less if you load the player.twitch.tv frame directly. the horrible part of twitch is the chat and other wobsite elements that often freeze your browser completely.
11:14:35 <fizzie> The official ones are in a playlist that has "Raw Stream" in the name... though on the other hand, that's the case for AGDQ 2017 as well.
11:15:10 <wob_jonas> at least in some older years, the final official encodes were on archive.org
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11:36:43 <lambdabot> CYUL 071029Z 23009KT 180V250 3/4SM R24R/P6000FT/U R24L/P6000FT/U +TSRA BKN009 OVC018CB 21/19 A2979 RMK SF5CB3 PRESRR SLP090 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
11:37:05 <boily> no TSRA here. it's gonna rain.
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13:01:10 <fizzie> What you see is the copy.
13:01:37 <fizzie> (You should get a sad message if you try to edit something.)
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13:28:41 <__kerbal__> Strangely, typing in esolangs.org now gets me nowhere. I used to get the wiki.
13:28:49 <__kerbal__> (even if it was the read-only version)
13:32:24 <__kerbal__> There's also been "vampiric manatees" and something involving a hypercantata or something like that
13:37:09 <wob_jonas> kerbal: dunno, after the Rat Samurai of the Kamigawa block, I'm not so easy to surprise by unusual race role combinations.
13:49:25 <fizzie> __kerbal__: It will take a while for the DNS change (to make esolangs.org point at the copy) to reach everywhere, and until it does, you might get different results from the caches of different nameservers.
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13:56:24 <__kerbal__> Has anyone ever created an esoteric markup language?
14:31:55 <wob_jonas> when I returned to the airport by train, at one point I was sitting in a small compartment of 8 seats with 4 other people, all 4 having a laptop in front of them
14:32:07 <wob_jonas> apparently everyone works on a laptop during traveling there
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14:47:30 <wob_jonas> there was something I wanted to ask you about M:tG rules
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15:08:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: In M:tG rules, basically I want to know how linked abilities work when a permanent gets them indirectly. Take the abilities of Synod Sanctum or Muse Vessel for example. Another permanent could get the abils indirectly through copy effects including cytoshape, or Quicksilver Elemental effects.
15:09:14 <wob_jonas> If I use the first ability to exile an object, then something happens with the indirect (possibly multiply indirect way) how this permanent gets its abilities, when can I still use the second ability to access the exiled card(s)?
15:11:17 <wob_jonas> For example, if you get the ability through Experiment Kraj, what happens if (a) the original Synod Sanctum loses all +1/+1 counters then regains them (b) the Sanctum phases out then phases in (c) the Sanctum dies then another Sanctum etb and gets a counter,
15:12:26 <wob_jonas> (d) the Sanctum gets Turned to Frog then back, (e) the Kraj gets Turned to Frog then back, ... and lots of other possibilities.
15:13:15 <wob_jonas> Simliarly, if a bear gets the Sanctum abilities through Cytoshape, the shape times out then in a later turn I Cytoshape the bear back to the same Sanctum, can I access the cards?
15:14:00 <wob_jonas> I'd like to know a general rule of when linked abilities can access the exiled card or similar when a permanent gets linked abilities indirectly.
15:22:39 <__kerbal__> Is War (the card game) guaranteed to halt?
15:23:23 <__kerbal__> If the cards given to each player at the start are non-random
15:24:10 <__kerbal__> (sorry, this M:tG thing got me thinking about the M:tG TC proof, which made me wonder about this)
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15:50:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, just don't really have anything to say
15:51:03 <ais523> I'm not an expert in M:tG rules
15:59:29 <__kerbal__> I think that a war game could be abstracted to a set of queues where every queue stores instructions
15:59:37 <wob_jonas> but then who's the M:tG rules expert on this channel then?
16:00:15 <__kerbal__> correction: every queue stores a set of integers
16:00:34 <__kerbal__> that are the inputs of the only instruction in War
16:03:09 <__kerbal__> this instruction basically takes a set of integers, where the position of the integer in the set corresponds to the queue (so the 1st integer is for the first queue) and writes the set to the queue corresponding to the largest integer in the set.
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16:04:29 <__kerbal__> Of course, to make War deterministic you must specify the order in which the set is written to the queue, which is not specified by some War rules I have seen
16:06:36 <__kerbal__> Assuming a 2 player game, you get two stacks
16:08:33 <__kerbal__> the question is, then, will War (or a precisely defined variant thereof) halt?
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16:09:16 <__kerbal__> Where War is defined broadly as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_(card_game)
16:18:31 <ais523> [1,4] vs [3,2]; [4,1,3] vs [2]; [1,3] vs [4,2]; [3,1,4] vs [2]; [1,4] vs [3,2]; repeat
16:18:42 <ais523> admittedly this uses a fairly asymmetrical gather order (always player 1 above player 2)
16:26:06 <__kerbal__> ais523: Could you explain your queue notation? I'm a bit confused (my apologies)
16:26:15 <ais523> __kerbal__: head of the queue is at the left end
16:27:15 <__kerbal__> If 3 won the battle against 1, why didn't the second player get 1?
16:30:22 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: ais523 is a mathematician, not a card gamer, so lower number wins in his notation.
16:31:57 <__kerbal__> So it appears that, for some starting values, War will never halt
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16:38:02 <__kerbal__> What about a variant in which "war" events create an extra card, namely the lowest value in the facedown cards?
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16:40:21 <__kerbal__> [1,3,5,7] vs [1,2,3,8]; 2 is generated and given to the winner
16:41:02 <__kerbal__> Basically, a way of getting around finite storage\
16:41:18 <ais523> this is starting to get into xigxag territory, now
16:41:23 <ais523> i.e. probably not TC but it's going to be a pain to prove
16:42:43 <__kerbal__> So, we need a consistent notation first...
16:43:27 <ais523> wob_jonas: nah, I think Last ReSort probably /is/ TC but it's going to be a pain to prove
16:43:33 <ais523> I might be wrong, though
16:43:49 <wob_jonas> oh, xigxag was that language that's like a tag system with two symbols or something
16:45:24 <wob_jonas> hmm, is there even a simple proof that iterated McCulloch's second machine isn't TC?
16:45:29 <ais523> xigxag has two symbols, < and >, but it isn't like a tag system
16:45:49 <ais523> each step, a < is replaced by a copy of everything to its left, a > is replaced by a copy of everything to its right
16:45:59 <ais523> it's been proven that all nontrivial programs grow exponentially but that really doesn't state anything about TCness
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17:04:07 <int-e> does it have a universal generator g in the sense that every string of <s and >s occurs as a substring in some successor of g?
17:05:00 <ais523> huh, interesting question
17:05:03 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's been explored yet
17:13:35 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:14:09 <\oren\> a call to system() is O(n) in the size of the calling process!!!!!!
17:14:13 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:15:30 <ais523> \oren\: you're on a UNIX-alike with a broken vfork?
17:16:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, in some large server programs forking can be a bottleneck, in which case you can prefork (and optionally exec) a separate small process whose job is to fork children.
17:16:52 <wob_jonas> Preforking has other advantages too, such as not having to worry about strange process state getting copied and accidentally causing hard to debug problems in the descendants.
17:18:15 <\oren\> wob_jonas: we are basically doeing that now
17:18:45 <\oren\> (except the "process whose job it is to fork children" is just a shell script)
17:19:12 <ais523> \oren\: seriously, though, what OS are you on?
17:19:45 <ais523> Linux has a bunch of forking optimizations, and doesn't need to copy the entire state of the program on a fork
17:20:05 <ais523> vfork is just seen as a clue to the scheduler there, rather than to the MMU, because a regular fork is already efficient enough
17:20:12 <ais523> however, I wonder if it nonetheless has to copy the page table?
17:20:23 <ais523> that's way smaller than memory generally, but it's still O(n) in the size of the process, just about
17:20:29 <ais523> I'd have expected the constant factor to be larger though
17:20:39 <\oren\> yeah and this process has a ton of mmapped files
17:21:18 <\oren\> and it was calling system() several times a second
17:22:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: was it at least calling system for something useful that's hard to replace, or for something silly like system("clear")?
17:22:56 <ais523> calling system() several times a second tends to be slow regardless of who's calling it
17:23:26 <\oren\> sprintf(s,"rm %s",filename);system(s);
17:24:19 <\oren\> never mind what will heppen if filename contains a space
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17:25:27 <\oren\> luckily this code never runs in prod
17:25:57 <int-e> so glibc's system uses this to fork on linux: # define FORK() INLINE_SYSCALL (clone, 3, CLONE_PARENT_SETTID | SIGCHLD, 0, &pid) ... CLONE_VM is not set so yes it'll make a, more or less, copy of the page tables.
17:26:35 <int-e> . o O ( hmm, that's from 2012. )
17:26:43 * int-e goes find a current version
17:27:34 <ais523> how does exec() interact with threads?
17:28:30 <int-e> I'm more curious about vfork and threads
17:31:15 <int-e> okay, current glibc still does the same thing.
17:31:36 <ais523> int-e: I'd assume that on Linux at least, vfork just prevents other threads running until the exec/_exit
17:31:57 <ais523> because on Linux, the only difference between fork and vfork is in how the scheduler reacts
17:32:05 <ais523> BSD might be more interesting, though
17:32:11 <ais523> although I assume it does threads quite differently from Linux
17:34:49 <int-e> interestingly, posix_spawn seems to use vfork (CLONE_VM | CLONE_VFORK); but they go out of their way to set up a new stack.
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17:36:01 <int-e> (on linux; the generic posix implementation is based around fork())
17:42:49 <int-e> three steps further into the rabbit hole... is system() guaranteed to run atfork handlers? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112517 says no.
17:43:22 <ais523> I wouldn't expect that guarantee to exist
17:44:02 <ais523> you'd expect system to be implemented via posix_spawn nowadays
17:44:09 <ais523> which has no reason to call an atfork
17:46:19 <wob_jonas> at one point I was wondering how in a multithread program when I fork-exec and want to have the children inherit a specific file handle, how I could make sure another thread doesn't system (or popen) at just the wrong time and inherit that handle.
17:46:29 <wob_jonas> This was on window, so fork wasn't actually involved sadly.
17:47:20 <wob_jonas> The implementation of popen itself makes sure the handles it creatures aren't inherited by other calls to popen by locking on a mutex, but that mutex isn't in the documented API so you can't reference them from user code.
17:48:59 <wob_jonas> An atfork handle would be ideal for locking on a similar mutex you create.
17:49:20 <wob_jonas> you have to lock the mutex before you fork and unlock after you fork
17:52:03 <int-e> "The expected usage is that the prepare handler acquires all mutex locks and the other two fork handlers release them." http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/pthread_atfork.html
17:53:35 <wob_jonas> WTF that's not something I expected to hear: a game where they play the US version because the japanese version has longer dialog (on SGDQ)
17:54:19 <int-e> mm, lazy localization?
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18:34:43 <\oren\> int-e: I HATE LAZY TRANSLATORS
18:35:54 <lambdabot> malig says: quantum mechanics actually strikes me as less wierd than lazy evaluation sometimes. at least it disallows time travel
18:36:45 <int-e> fungot: do you hit people?
18:36:47 <fungot> int-e: madam president, i thank the president-in-office for that answer, president-in-office. we would welcome coordination of the council's willingness to consider aid for research and innovation, which is based on an arsenal of sanctions which will have considerable social and environmental jobs; encouraging public and private research expenditure is continuing or picking up in the forthcoming session, which were not kept to.
18:40:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: but there's one way he can hit people
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18:44:39 <\oren\> I need a #include_if_exists
18:44:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: we have that these days in C
18:45:13 <wob_jonas> #ifdef __has_include or some such thing, I don't recall
18:45:40 <wob_jonas> they're even putting it to the c++ standard, though I don't really like that idea
18:46:24 <\oren\> yeah this is just to have a "defines_for_testing.h" folder
18:46:44 <\oren\> which will exist when I want to change some numbers for testing
18:46:55 <FireFly> <wob_jonas> WTF that's not something I expected to hear: a game where they play the US version because the japanese version has longer dialog (on SGDQ) ← huh, that's a new one
18:47:03 <wob_jonas> um, actually #if __has_include rather than ifdef
18:47:19 <FireFly> Although, at least in one case I've seen french or spanish be the quickest (although I'm not sure if that game had japanese localisation)
18:47:50 <wob_jonas> FireFly: that's GTA-3, but it's quicker for reasons other than just dialog length
18:48:34 <FireFly> oh, I was thinking of another game FWIW, I was thinking of Guacamelee
18:49:08 <wob_jonas> or maybe GTA Vice City. iirc it's because the french version censors the rampange missions, and runs in some categories use that and replay bugs (of which the PC version has a shitton of crazy ones) to get something crazy by switching langugaes
18:49:09 <FireFly> I want to say at least one Zelda game was fastest in some european language too
18:49:21 <FireFly> although that could also be for non-dialogue-length version differences
18:49:40 <wob_jonas> FireFly: I'm not surprised if something is faster in English than in Japanese, I'm only surprised if it's because of dialog length
18:50:53 <wob_jonas> the reason why Japanese version is usually faster is the PAL vs NTSC difference, but that doesn't apply to either GTA on PC, nor to the portable console game that spawned my surprise this time
18:52:05 <FireFly> Well, or version differences such as bugs exclusive to one language
18:52:21 <wob_jonas> but I think say game boy pokemon red/blue are faster in japanese because of dialog length
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18:54:05 <FireFly> Yeah, certainly… although I believe OoT is fastest in chinese (so, the iQue version)
18:54:07 <pikhq> For Japanese vs. English, PAL vs NTSC shouldn't be relevant basically ever.
18:54:22 <pikhq> Unless the game never got a US release.
18:54:45 <pikhq> NTSC is the American spec that Japan also adopted.
18:54:47 <wob_jonas> yeah, NTSC is in japan and america, PAL in western europe
18:54:58 <wob_jonas> (it's more complicated than that, but that's the main idea)
18:55:17 <pikhq> And for purposes of *most* video games, it's really a question of being 50 or 60 Hz.
18:55:48 <pikhq> With region coding being relevant for some consoles, but that doesn't really effect the performance of the game.
18:56:14 <pikhq> I think the 2600 was the one console where SECAM versions could justifiably be written differently than PAL?
18:56:24 <wob_jonas> and they have different display resolution, making it even harder to port games
18:56:40 <wob_jonas> PAL and NTSC have different resolution that is
18:57:02 <wob_jonas> I mean, the 2600 is before my time
18:57:13 <pikhq> Though many PAL releases just used the NTSC resolution and let there be a bunch of black pixels.
18:57:38 <pikhq> NES, particularly.
18:57:58 <pikhq> Though, rather a *lot* of consoles did the same thing for PAL ports of NTSC games.
18:58:39 <pikhq> Especially for ones that'd run an NTSC ROM perfectly fine on PAL hardware, just slower.
18:59:09 <pikhq> These weren't exactly great PAL ports, but let's be real, a lot of companies just didn't give a shit.
18:59:57 <pikhq> The SECAM 2600 was actually kinda hilarious.
19:00:05 <pikhq> It had an 8 color pallete.
19:00:39 <wob_jonas> wouldn't that make it a much worse console than the 2600 then?
19:02:05 <pikhq> Oh. The reason is they never produced a SECAM TIA chip at all.
19:02:36 <pikhq> They just used a quick hack on the PAL TIA chip's luminance output to output color signals based on the luma value.
19:02:48 <pikhq> And *just* output the PAL luma signal with that hack color signal.
19:03:05 <pikhq> And the reason they didn't bother, is the market size didn't merit it.
19:03:17 <pikhq> Because at the time the SECAM market they thought possible was *just* France.
19:03:28 <pikhq> (selling to the Soviet Union, in the early 80s? LOL.)
19:03:32 * FireFly . o O ( PAL is used in western europe and australia… although Eurovision would have you believe that australia is part of europe, so…)
19:04:09 <pikhq> Also fun, apparently France didn't really get custom ROMs to deal with that.
19:04:33 <pikhq> Instead, the B&W switch was overloaded somewhat.
19:04:58 <pikhq> PAL releases were expected to output luma-only when it was set to black and white.
19:05:06 <pikhq> And French 2600s had an always-on black and white switch.
19:06:56 <wob_jonas> were there any flagship games that did get custom ROM?
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19:09:48 <pikhq> Pfft, and some of the early SECAM 2600s were made SECAM with just some wires added on the board.
19:10:06 <pikhq> And presumably a local RF modulator.
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19:43:52 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> hmm, is there even a simple proof that iterated McCulloch's second machine isn't TC? <-- i never finished my analysis, it got complicated and i'd have to write a constraint solving program, but my _hunch_ is that the resulting "register machine" is too simple to be TC.
19:44:46 <oerjan> or put differently, it's not that simple, because it devolves into a register machine thing with ~6 registers.
19:45:26 <oerjan> natural numbers, they correspond to lengths of certain substrings.
19:46:10 <zzo38> Is it possible to stream a recording to a DVD without needing to store it in RAM or a disk file?
19:46:12 <oerjan> or rather "number of subblocks" of certain substrings, i guess.
19:48:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, where'd you put stuff if not in the ram?
19:49:13 <zzo38> The part that is currently recording may be stored in a buffer in RAM, but after that it shouldn't store everything and only a small part, to not take up too much RAM.
19:50:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and you want this with an ordinary DVD burner drive hardware, or custom drive?
19:51:06 <zzo38> With the ordinary DVD hardware
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19:58:42 <pikhq> zzo38: So you'd e.g. permit like a 2 meg buffer or some such, but that's about it?
19:59:01 <pikhq> I think that's possible, but dunno how easy it'd be to do.
19:59:20 <zzo38> Yes, something like that.
19:59:24 <wob_jonas> you can barely even fit a single frame of raw video in that
20:00:00 <pikhq> That's also nearly 2 seconds of output to a DVD burner at 1x speed.
20:00:01 <wob_jonas> you want lots more memory for compressing video
20:00:17 <pikhq> I was assuming that was the buffer from the encoder to the DVD burner.
20:00:43 <zzo38> That assumes that you are recording video onto the DVD; the data being recorded is not necessarily going to be video though
20:00:59 <pikhq> Though, do remember this is a *DVD*.
20:01:00 <wob_jonas> pikhq: oh, so 2 megs besides the hundreds of megs or something the video encoder itself uses?
20:01:33 <pikhq> A frame of *DVD* video raw doesn't take that much.
20:02:19 <zzo38> I was thinking that the data to record is not necessarily a video.
20:03:01 <pikhq> A full frame of DVD video at 4:2:2 is less than a meg.
20:03:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and are you allowed to use a format on the dvd that requires a custom decoder software to read, as long as it doesn't have too much space overhead?
20:04:23 <pikhq> But yes, as far as I'm aware the only thing preventing you from writing a DVD *streaming* like you want is software, not hardware.
20:04:35 <pikhq> As far as the hardware's concerned it's burning bits out of a buffer.
20:04:45 <zzo38> I would have hope that you can just read it from /dev/dvdrom or whatever even if it isn't a filesystem
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20:05:08 <pikhq> wob_jonas: I think UDF, the common filesystem for DVDs, is actually designed to let you output it streaming.
20:05:16 <zzo38> I don't know if it is necessary to reduce the speed of the disc spinning either
20:05:29 <zzo38> (while recording; not while reading)
20:05:47 <pikhq> zzo38: It should only be a function of how fast you can shove bits at the thing.
20:06:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ordinary dvd writing already allows you to slow down the dvd or cd rotation, and we often use that option because it might make the disk last longer
20:06:36 <wob_jonas> I've always written my dvds at 4x speed even though the drive and disk could do 16x
20:06:47 <pikhq> It's also necessary to match the speed to the disk to some extent.
20:06:54 <zzo38> The only thing will be, what if the speed of the streaming is unknown or variable?
20:07:27 <pikhq> IIRC present-day burners are able to straight-up stop mid-burn to allow their buffer to fill up.
20:08:00 <wob_jonas> pikhq: stopping is easy. continuing is the hard part.
20:08:42 <zzo38> I thought that in order to be able to stop and continue at any time may be necessary to make it spin more slowly?
20:09:43 <zzo38> (Maybe you will need some kind of mark to indicate the address?)
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20:17:36 <zzo38> Is UDF design like that for use with DVD recorders that can record television shows?
20:40:36 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/a/akxyv
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20:55:23 <fizzie> Sanyo has a trandmark ("BURN-Proof™") and a patent for doing that sort of stop/resume on CDs, I think that was reasonably widely supported. And already at least a decade old by now.
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20:56:46 <fizzie> (Wikipedia claims that the DVD+R(W) formats have that as a standard thing.)
20:59:08 <\oren\> yeah screencapped thru facebook for realism
20:59:09 <\oren\> https://snag.gy/QN8ivE.jpg
20:59:49 <fizzie> I do remember DVD-RAM, I think I might've gotten one disc alongside a "super multi" drive.
21:00:25 <fizzie> It didn't do the cartridge trick.
21:08:04 <APic> http://i.imgur.com/ywabaFb.gifv
21:20:16 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you decrease the TTL on esolangs.org?
21:20:39 <fizzie> I set it to 5 minutes, yes.
21:21:17 <fizzie> I was inspired by such industry giants as the Google, which also uses 300 seconds.
21:21:32 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, are you sure that's not confidential information?
21:21:41 <fizzie> It's like "dig google.com a".
21:21:49 <fizzie> It's hard to be confidential about that.
21:22:00 <shachaf> That's your TTL, but maybe my TTL is different.
21:22:11 <shachaf> Maybe you're at work and you're revealing information about the internal TTL.
21:22:13 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Fri Jul 7 21:22:13 2017
21:22:16 <fizzie> In fact, I couldn't remember what it was in a confidential way, so I did just that.
21:22:57 <shachaf> When's that one coming back?
21:23:29 <fizzie> That's a good question. I don't have super recent clone of the repository.
21:23:55 <shachaf> No copy of the data or anything?
21:23:55 <zzo38> I tried that and do not see anything about TTL. Did I do something wrong?
21:24:07 <shachaf> I knew I should have set up a cron job to fetch the repository.
21:24:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Tried what, the dig command?
21:24:26 <shachaf> You probably saw a line like google.com. 174 IN A 172.217.6.78
21:24:45 <fizzie> It can be less than 300 if you get it from a server that had it cached.
21:25:07 <zzo38> O, OK, although I get a different number (64 instead of 174 or 300) and the IP address is also different
21:25:34 <fizzie> I guess technically I should've said something like dig @ns1.google.com google.com a
21:25:50 <fizzie> That one I get as a constant 300, since it's the authoritative reply.
21:26:11 <shachaf> zzo38: If you run the command multiple times you'll probably see that number decreasing every second.
21:26:21 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes that one works.
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21:26:46 <shachaf> zzo38: maybe you should go work at the google hth
21:27:42 <fizzie> shachaf: To answer your question, I do have one copy, it's just very old. Anyway, I'm still sort of expecting the server to be back in some form eventually, at least enough for the big G (the other big G) to pull data out of it.
21:28:56 <shachaf> maybe we should have a #esoteric IRC meetup when fizzie is in CA
21:29:14 <shachaf> who all is still in california around here
21:30:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Presumably the big G is pulling data out of it using HTTP.
21:32:25 <fizzie> Well, I was sort of speculating about the big G that has access to the control panel. Maybe they have some sort of a thing. I don't know, I'm not a CaC customer.
21:32:58 <shachaf> I meant the non-other big G.
21:33:16 <shachaf> How many Gs are there, and which of them are big?
21:34:00 <fizzie> There's the gravitational constant, but that'd not so big.
21:34:23 <shachaf> Wikipedia also suggests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Gemini
21:34:46 <fizzie> In related news, I had done a Bad Thing about the monitoring: I had the node metrics configured using the role DNS name "esolangs.org", instead of a specific designator of the machine.
21:34:57 <fizzie> Now I won't be notified when/if it comes back up. :/
21:35:37 <shachaf> Which monitoring system was this?
21:35:57 <fizzie> Prometheus on this side, prometheus-node-exporter and mtail on the other side.
21:36:39 <fizzie> Well, and also nginx on the other side to do HTTPS and basic auth.
21:37:58 <fizzie> (That last bit is the problematic one, because I could reconfigure the other bits, but the HTTPS connection will fail because the TLS certificate will have just esolangs.org and www.esolangs.org on it.)
21:41:12 <shachaf> I sure hope shaventions don't disappear.
21:41:34 <shachaf> We could reconstruct a lot of state from IRC logs. I guess this is a disadvantage of `edit
21:41:44 <fizzie> It might be someone else here has a more fresh thing.
21:42:08 <shachaf> I made a clone at one point.
21:42:28 <fizzie> If it comes back, I'll set up a periodic thing.
21:43:00 <fizzie> hg log suggests the one I have in ~/tmp/hackego is from 2013, which was a little while ago.
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22:14:05 <oerjan> that's so old it might even be pre-nitia
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22:15:56 <oerjan> that is, it might have history older than HackEgo itself
22:40:24 <imode> how do befunge interpreters traditionally store code? as just a big 2D array of cells?
22:43:35 <shachaf> oerjan: What was the reason for nitia, anyway?
22:43:40 <shachaf> Was the old history lost somehow?
22:43:46 <pikhq> Depends on the interpreter, probably.
22:44:26 <oerjan> shachaf: Gregor had a habit of deleting history occasionally.
22:44:27 <imode> for small programs it's not bad but for large, sparse programs I imagine it'd get complicated.
22:44:41 <imode> memory overhead especially.
22:48:45 * oerjan remembers discussing multicursor quadtree zippers with elliott at one point, and thinks that may have been a fungespace discussion gone way awry
22:49:35 <shachaf> I've also discussed 2D zippers with elliott, I think.
22:49:43 <shachaf> Though I don't remember figuring out a good solution?
22:49:45 <oerjan> anyway, quadtrees are a possibility.
22:50:02 <shachaf> Maybe they should store data Z-ordered.
22:51:24 <oerjan> a hashtable might work too, perhaps with regions.
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23:03:42 <__kerbal__> So, HackEgo's recent files aren't permanently wiped out, are they? It should be fine when or if the server goes back online
23:05:54 <fizzie> I mean, if the Cloud At Cost people took the money and ran off to Bahamas, it may take quite a lot of time before anyone gets anything out of there.
23:06:10 <fizzie> Have they even managed to give Megaupload customers their files yet?
23:06:11 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:36 <fizzie> Somehow I don't think they were making embezzlement-worthy money from the service though.
23:08:39 <shachaf> I like the concept of "bezzle", money created through embezzlement.
23:09:45 * oerjan floods shachaf with barass
23:09:56 <fizzie> From a blog post: "However, with Cloud at Cost randomly shutting down servers, randomly deleting servers, taking forever to answer tickets and a host of other problems, I highly doubt any of their customers have gotten anywhere near three years of use out of their products."
23:10:00 <fizzie> I think we're a counterexample.
23:10:01 <shachaf> The discovery of embezzlement destroys money.
23:19:56 <quintopia> inode: i would use a dict with a (x,y) tuple as key. it's probably a bit slower, but saves memorye
23:20:24 <imode> quintopia: pretty much what I was thinking.
23:20:59 <imode> with the option to unpack into an array.
23:21:30 <imode> I think it'd be interesting to make something like a roguelike where the code 'exists' in the same place as the game it powers.
23:21:59 <imode> "befunge as a scripting language" is now a life goal.
23:23:20 <__kerbal__> Imode: Code in the same place as the game it powers sort of exists in Wreck It Ralph
23:23:57 <imode> snapmap has something "like" that, where you use the game world as a sort of canvas for triggers, etc.
23:24:47 <__kerbal__> You could do some neat plot-related stuff with that idea
23:25:15 <imode> my biggest problem with that would be code re-use. if you were going to actually use the world as a befunge-like canvas, you'd have to figure out methods for procedures.
23:25:55 <fizzie> Hack'n'Slash has a little bit of that sort of thing.
23:25:57 <imode> and ways of controlling objects.
23:26:26 <fizzie> (There was another one but I'm having trouble locating it.)
23:26:45 <imode> like, you'd have to have an entire blank area for one object's code, with objects that you can interact with to move the "parent" in the cardinal directions and perform actions.
23:27:18 <imode> buttons, maybe? you could pull off a redstone-like system.
23:27:48 <imode> looking at Hack'n'Slash now.
23:27:54 <__kerbal__> imode: Or if the entire source code for the game was the world itself. You could literally alter the fabric of the game's universe
23:28:02 <fizzie> It's a lot more of a game than the thing you describe.
23:28:09 <imode> __kerbal__: that's kind of what I'm thinking.
23:28:58 <imode> wanna change how much health you have? warp to a certain point in the world, push a block and hit a button a certain number of times.
23:30:18 <__kerbal__> Want to explore the main menu with your character? Go to the relevant section of the code and alter a slice.
23:30:43 <fizzie> I can't decide whether the other game I'm thinking about actually existed, or if it was fictional, or if I just dreamed it.
23:30:54 <imode> the problem is making the programming model easy enough.
23:31:00 <__kerbal__> Hack n slice does similar stuff, from what I just read, though
23:32:22 <__kerbal__> Would it be source code in a fungeoidal language as I have been imagining?
23:32:39 <imode> code exists in the same space as the actual game.
23:33:21 <__kerbal__> That would be really cool, but so hard to edit without crashing everything unless it somehow was designed to be sufficiently easy
23:33:59 <imode> that's why you need something like entry points. or something.
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23:35:44 <fizzie> There's also Heart.Break(), but that's still not the game I was thinking of.
23:35:51 <fizzie> Maybe it was fictional.
23:36:09 <imode> I don't like programming games that are just "here's javascript, go nuts".
23:36:13 <imode> much like hackmud..
23:36:13 <__kerbal__> maybe something like this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton
23:36:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you mean barrass?
23:36:43 <imode> so something like a schematic?
23:36:44 <__kerbal__> That way, you don't have to work with single char commands
23:37:16 <__kerbal__> Otherwise, you get a version of befunge that uses all the Unicode chars or something ridiculous like that
23:37:38 <__kerbal__> well, not ALL the Unicode chars but you get my point
23:37:48 <imode> at that point you might as well do something like flow-based programming.
23:37:52 <imode> or factorio-style stuff.
23:38:46 <__kerbal__> you could have boxes as functions that served double duty as buildings... you could go inside
23:38:58 <__kerbal__> or get teleported to the function definition
23:39:28 <shachaf> Speaking of what I said the other day, when I first played Factorio I didn't know about the underground belts for a while.
23:39:38 <shachaf> So I tried to make everything planar.
23:39:41 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know, ask muphry here
23:39:44 <imode> wire crossing problem. :P
23:39:58 <imode> __kerbal__: you could do something like excel!
23:40:40 <imode> but that'd be kinda weird.
23:40:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you like sqrt(2)?
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23:42:05 <__kerbal__> You might be able to do something graphical... but that would resemble a flowchart, be potentially complex and slow, etc...
23:42:11 <shachaf> zzo38: What name do you think an object-oriented language should use for the object whose method is being invoked?
23:42:37 <__kerbal__> Now, won't this whole game not exactly be fast?
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23:42:54 <imode> depends, I suppose.
23:43:57 <__kerbal__> Also, couldn't you win extremely quickly with just the right hacks?
23:44:07 <imode> maybe you could take a more abstract approach and have some primitive objects that can move around and do some things in their general vicinity.
23:44:31 <imode> like you oculd form a "pipeline" by putting several carrier objects next to eachother and telling them to take the object from their left and put it on their right.
23:44:47 <imode> or two "mailbox" objects that transport things from one point on the "map" to another.
23:45:05 <imode> you could have compound objects that have their own "dimension" with controls exposed by sensory objects.
23:45:24 <__kerbal__> I think Wikipedia said Hack and Slash does that
23:45:51 <imode> I posted a video last night that detailed an approach similar to what I just described... hm.
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23:48:58 <imode> it kind of favored two dimensions, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkSXERxucPc
23:50:44 <imode> I wonder, though, if you could structure space as kind of a "MUD", where you have locations that objects can move between, and you get a gaggle of objects in a room and wire them together.
23:52:28 <zzo38> shachaf: Programming languages I know will call it "this", although some use others. OAA just uses a plus sign to retrieve the "this" object reference.
23:59:34 <shachaf> oerjan didn't appreciate my pun tdnh
23:59:42 <shachaf> I think Mr2001 would appreciate it but he isn't here.
00:15:07 <shachaf> You may be missing some context.
00:17:43 <__kerbal__> and the square root function equal a screw?
00:18:28 <shachaf> Never mind the sqrt(2) thing.
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00:34:39 <Hoolootwo> I remember in some speedruns of SMB2 there's a glitch area, in which mario has to navigate through memory without hitting blocks, then smash the one that brings him to the credits
00:36:58 <Hoolootwo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjZCELEg5M
00:40:02 <fizzie> JavaScript people sometimes use "self" when they have to stick "this" into a variable for reasons.
00:54:13 <imode> Hoolootwo: yeah, those glitched runs are fun to watch. Metroid 2, Fusion, Zero Mission and Super Metroid even have some of the same techniques.
00:54:59 <imode> I think if you were ever going to design a game where the code exists in the same space as your simulation, you have to be sort of space-agnostic, meaning you can't favor any particular arrangement of objects.
00:55:27 <alercah> the techniques in the 2D metroid games are mostly only superficially similar
00:59:52 <Hoolootwo> I can't seem to find the specific run that does the out-of-bounds thing
01:01:27 <imode> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx85PyLFwUk
01:01:35 <imode> about 5 minutes in.
01:01:46 <imode> they're walking around in memory regions.
01:04:07 <fizzie> Arguably, you're always doing *that*, it's just not the memory regions you're intended to be walking around in.
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01:06:56 <wob_jonas> Re game where the game world represents game rules: (1) I have a vague hunch that one of the tasks in ICFP 2006 was like that, (2) it can sort of happen in games liek game boy super mario land 2 where you go out of bounds and end up in a glitched place where the game is reading the ROM as a game map,
01:07:12 <wob_jonas> and although you can't change ROM values, you can change variables in the RAM that way with surprising effects,
01:07:24 <imode> the trick to what I'm thinking of is having areas that the user is _intended_ to be there in one form or another.
01:08:07 <wob_jonas> (3) imode has hit the nail with Excel, because Excel 3 macros might be the best example for something like this, since macros are represented in macro worksheets with one rule per cell, and those worksheets are very similar to ordinary worksheets
01:08:52 <wob_jonas> except cells in them don't get their values automatically recomputed all the time, instead their values are only computed when macro execution steps there, and so editing the formulas works the same way in a macro worksheet as in an ordinary one.
01:13:47 <wob_jonas> I guess editing the config file of your text editor with the same text editor is also sort of like that.
01:14:24 <imode> I guess you have to consider what the space of your game can be. limiting things to 2 dimensions is a little.. eeh.
01:14:48 <wob_jonas> Like I said yesterday, excel is 3 dimensional.
01:14:58 <imode> 2 was just an example.
01:15:55 <imode> you could do a hunt the wumpus/trade wars kind of a thing where objects occupy abstract spaces like rooms.
01:16:26 <imode> "fetch a character from the keyboard" really takes on a whole new meaning then. :P
01:17:13 <imode> hunt the wumpus is based on a dodecahedron, not necessarily two dimensional.
01:17:26 <imode> you could reduce it to a planar graph, yeah.
01:17:31 <wob_jonas> hmm... I guess hunt the wumpus has holes you can fall into and die, so you could sort of count that as a third dimension
01:17:55 <imode> but the "space" you play in is inherently a graph.
01:18:08 <imode> not a uniform grid.
01:18:11 <wob_jonas> and bats that carry you to different rooms too
01:28:12 <Hoolootwo> I've played (a version of) hunt the wumpus on a complete graph before
01:31:59 <wob_jonas> Hoolootwo: with how many rooms, pits, and bats?
01:32:26 <Hoolootwo> uh n rooms, I don't remember the exact details, let me grab them
01:36:23 <Hoolootwo> https://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12532&lang=en
01:36:32 <Hoolootwo> not complete graphs, I realize that wouldn't make much sense
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04:07:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Does the backup wiki link need to stay in the topic?
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04:30:13 <shachaf> I didn't look at it in much detail before.
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04:47:15 <imode> not sure what you mean by "too good". too good for what.
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05:04:54 <pikhq> Yeah, Wireworld is a great CA.
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09:03:40 <int-e> uhm, google, why'd you put "shopping" where the image search used to be? That's evil, I say, evil.
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09:31:00 <int-e> oh, since 2008 we actually have speed of light communication in GoL ( http://www.gabrielnivasch.org/fun/life/lightspeed-signals ).
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09:36:58 <int-e> but still no lightspeed wire based communication
09:37:53 <int-e> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Lightspeed_wire
09:39:51 <Taneb> GoL programming reminds me of how I felt when I first joined this channel
09:40:41 <Taneb> People doing impossible things that I barely understand
09:42:17 <Taneb> ...2010 or 2011 I think?
09:49:43 <shachaf> I'll be pretty bummed out if we lose fshg
09:54:48 <shachaf> fshg is the HackEgo filesystem
09:55:08 <Taneb> Why would we lose it?
09:55:22 <Taneb> Other than HackEgo seems to have gotten lost
09:55:23 <shachaf> Because the server that was hosting HackEgo has disappeared.
09:56:38 <shachaf> Taneb: You should invent a good build system.
09:58:09 <Taneb> I've been learning abut nix at work, it seems pretty all right
09:58:39 <shachaf> It doesn't actually do the work of the build system proper, I think.
09:58:55 <shachaf> It just uses Cabal or Cargo or whatever. Right?
09:59:05 <shachaf> imo you should learn about bazel twh
09:59:52 <Taneb> Yeah, that might be the case
10:00:02 <Taneb> Isn't bazel a city in Germany or Switzerland
10:00:14 <shachaf> Also the Nix language is very complicated.
10:00:27 <shachaf> And it doesn't seem to be sufficiently declarative in the usual case.
10:00:42 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazel seems to be in Belgium.
10:01:21 <shachaf> There are many more than 5000 users of Bazel_(software)
10:07:29 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel
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12:08:04 <fizzie> The reddit comments imply that at least for some people, they can create new servers on CaC, it's just the old ones that are not working.
12:09:43 <fizzie> Gregor: You might have some luck at power-cycling off / on from the console thingie now. (Or not. Probably not. But there's some success stories.)
12:11:09 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Sat Jul 8 07:11:09
12:11:25 <fizzie> Maybe not the most bestest time to expect a response.
12:21:25 <int-e> fizzie: do you have a backup of the fshg repo as well?
12:22:03 <int-e> (shachaf was worrying about that)
12:24:06 <fizzie> Well, I do have one from 2013.
12:24:42 <fizzie> I'll set up something periodic if it comes back up, but the only thing that I had was for the wiki.
12:24:52 <fizzie> I do have a lot of IRC logs I can try replaying. ;)
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13:00:48 <fizzie> Something I've never understood: since the Games Done Quick schedule page has that JavaScript to convert all the dates and times to your local time zone, why can't it add a marker to show the current time, or dehighlight (lowlight?) the ones that are in the past, or something.
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13:19:50 <wob_jonas> Re HackEgo's state, replaying from the channel is not easy though, because sometimes I edit with multiple lines in private message then show the result here.
13:22:39 <fizzie> Sure, and there's also `fetch.
13:22:56 <fizzie> Might be interesting to try anyway, to see where it diverges and how badly it goes wrong.
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14:49:47 <int-e> . o O ( For this magic trick you'll need: A piece of string, a deck of cards, an identical twin, and a shoe box. )
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15:58:40 <fizzie> Hey, it's back. I didn't even realize.
15:59:12 <fizzie> Slow and steady wins the race.
15:59:35 <fizzie> Probably means I can re-point DNS things at the real deal.
15:59:43 <HackEgo> moth//Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
15:59:51 <HackEgo> not overcook. Seal and discard the meat \ with the chili powder and dust the lengthwise. \ \ Cover with fennel steak around the heat and beat in the cornstarch or water and soy sauce. \ Remove the broiler in a serving bowl. Stir together the olive oil, and \ salt together until mixture. Add the bread crumbs and heat well in a \ small bow
16:00:00 <wob_jonas> quick, someone save it before it disappears again
16:00:36 <HackEgo> changeset: 11076:58a63c67dd0c \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Jul 05 23:03:15 2017 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> slwd `1//s,almost ,,
16:00:45 <fizzie> I'll do a clone of the repository.
16:06:42 <fizzie> Also updated esolangs.org to point at the real thing, and thanks to the low TTL it should this time take only five minutes to propagate.
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16:20:59 <fizzie> Cloned. Also added updating it to be part of the weekly esowiki backup.
16:21:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: mermaid umpires | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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17:36:05 <rdococ> `le//rn hungary//Hungary is the country where everyone is vary hungry.
17:36:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'hungary': Hungary is the country where everyone is vary hungry.
17:41:29 <fizzie> Subject: [RESOLVED] host_down (esolangs.org)
17:43:14 <zzo38> I read the article about Amycus and in the part mentioninghow to make successor/predecessor of lists, I think the commas is supposed to be colons?
17:44:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, let me look up what you're talking about
17:46:12 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amycus#Implementing
17:52:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52396&oldid=46671 * B jonas * (+7) /* Implementing */
17:55:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52397&oldid=52396 * B jonas * (+0) /* Implementing */
17:56:07 <int-e> HackEgo: are you real or an identical twin?
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18:14:11 <shachaf> fizzie: I was worried about the existence of a backup, not specifically a copy you have.
18:17:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52398&oldid=52389 * Kerbal * (-123)
18:18:03 <HackEgo> olist 1080: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:18:58 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
18:20:13 <shachaf> wob_jonas: This is one reason editing in /msg is discouraged.
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18:22:48 <fizzie> I usually do sed in /msg, and then repeat the final thing with -i here. (I don't hold with these newfangled sleds and whatnot.)
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18:25:41 <shachaf> fizzie: That would be a good feature for sled.
18:27:23 <shachaf> everything is back to normal
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18:51:51 <oerjan> (let's see if we can get int-e to finally add channel-based levenshtein distances as he's threatened to)
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18:52:20 <int-e> I believe I have found a simpler solution to the problem.
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19:13:45 <int-e> I didn't do a thing besides demonstrating the fact that having lambdabot on this channel is entirely optional.
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19:29:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: HackEgo and the esowiki are back
19:30:07 <ais523> I was aware that there were problems but trusted that they'd be sorted out
19:30:14 <ais523> is it still on Cloud At Cost or has it migrated providers?
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19:44:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan didn't appreciate my pun tdnh <-- i'd have to find it first twh
19:46:33 <lambdabot> http://www.geeksforgeeks.org/this-pointer-in-c/
19:46:33 <lambdabot> Title: 'this' pointer in C++ - GeeksforGeeks
19:47:25 <int-e> . o O ( this is me in C++ )
19:48:33 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"C++" (line 1, column 3):
19:48:33 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $, an atom, "|" or end of input)
19:48:37 <int-e> @quote int-e C\+\+
19:48:37 <lambdabot> int-e says: C++ does make a reasonably usable high-level assembler
19:49:15 <shachaf> C++ is nothing like assembler. It produces ridiculously inefficient code without an optimizer.
19:49:24 <int-e> (I was generating deeply nested loops with templates at the time.)
19:49:28 <shachaf> So much recursive template expansion.
19:50:05 <int-e> (So yes, I did effectively use it as a HLA, or perhaps HLC.)
19:50:06 * oerjan finally finds shachaf's pun -----###
19:51:10 <shachaf> I wonder why C++ doesn't allow this to be null?
19:51:12 <int-e> shachaf: just stay away from objects and virtual methods and it'll be fine... except that compile time may be slow, and if you're unlucky your code won't fit into the cache.
19:52:32 <int-e> it's so that compilers can optimize (this == NULL) checks away without violating the standard.
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19:52:44 <shachaf> Sure, it's a good language for producing efficient code.
19:53:04 <int-e> (which may be the result of inlining a function that has such a check, but is invoked with `this` as its argument)
19:53:31 <int-e> I think you're overusing "tg", hth.
19:54:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52399&oldid=52393 * Qwertyu63 * (+23)
19:54:54 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
19:56:42 <ybden> I can't say I'd ever heard of it before
19:56:44 <int-e> shachaf: are you trying to become zzo38?
19:57:19 <ybden> Hm, it looks neat maybe
19:57:45 <shachaf> I was using "you" in the zzo38 sense, certainly.
20:01:29 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Does the backup wiki link need to stay in the topic? <-- i left it in because the DNS needs to propagate...
20:02:29 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
20:02:35 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
20:02:46 <fizzie> I'm still getting wiki requests on the backup machine, even though I had a TTL of 5 minutes in the temporary entry.
20:03:29 <fizzie> Well, okay, at the moment it seems to be only "AhrefsBot/5.2".
20:04:04 <fizzie> I should've configured to log the host name used to access it, maybe something already started crawling the address that formerly was in the topic.
20:05:17 <oerjan> where would they get that address though...
20:05:31 <fizzie> The channel logs, maybe.
20:06:25 <oerjan> "Ahrefsbot" sounds like something that follows <A href=" tags...
20:06:46 <oerjan> which the channel logs are quite free of.
20:07:08 <fizzie> Ahrefs is the company name, though it's clearly named after that.
20:07:15 <fizzie> "Ahrefs helps you to learn why your competitors are ranking so high and what you need to do to outrank them."
20:07:31 <fizzie> Some sort of a SEO company.
20:08:28 <int-e> encountered them before.. their crawler is fairly aggressive
20:08:40 -!- imode has joined.
20:11:47 <fizzie> Took a while to realize that Zucchini_cat.png probably refers to cat-the-program rather than cat-the-animal.
20:12:24 <int-e> . o O ( index.php:if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'AhrefsBot') !== false) { exit(0); } <-- leftover from a slow php frontend and a failure to set up a robots.txt protecting it. )
20:13:04 <fizzie> Majestic's MJ12Bot was being pretty aggressive as well.
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20:15:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: isn't it better to do that in a wobserver config file?
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20:17:35 <int-e> wob_jonas: maybe if you're the webserver admin :P
20:19:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: Also, the robots.txt keeps this particular crawler away, but they only look at it for 24 hours. It was meant as a temporary workaround... but it never got removed.
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20:19:58 <int-e> uhm, grammar. s/for/once every/
20:20:51 <fizzie> robots.txt a day keeps the crawler away.
20:21:15 <imode> it also keeps the internet archive away.
20:21:34 <fizzie> You can put user-agent-qualified rules in there.
20:23:16 <fizzie> I added a disallow for "User-agent: SemrushBot" because their crawler was being *super* confused by MediaWiki's "URLs containing %3A get a 301 to the same URL with raw : instead" rule, trying to fetch the same thing over and over again, quite a few times per second.
20:24:05 <fizzie> I'm guessing they fetch, say, /foo%3Abar, get a 301 to /foo:bar, don't think that's a loop, then some piece of their infrastructure re-encodes that to /foo%3Abar for safety.
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20:31:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheSquashyApple * New user account
20:40:07 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and it didn't give up after like 16 tries?
20:41:14 <fizzie> I don't think it gave up each page eventually, but there's no shortage of pages with :s if you crawl a MediaWiki page.
20:41:32 <fizzie> Er, I mean, I don't think it looped indefinitely, but did give up eventually.
20:42:31 <int-e> I love these sites. http://esolangs.org.ourssite.com/ "Daily revenue: $829".
20:43:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52400&oldid=52352 * TheSquashyApple * (+248)
20:44:30 <ais523> fizzie: would you sell the site for $302,688, assuming there was a buyer?
20:44:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: great, you're successfully keeping most of the site's revenue secret from tax auditors that use that site
20:44:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TheSquashyApple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52401 * TheSquashyApple * (+56) Created page with "hi. i am some guy who likes apples and programming. bye."
20:44:48 <ais523> also, do we really get 27 million unique visitors a year?
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20:45:30 <Sgeo> HexChat was acting stupid.
20:45:44 <Sgeo> http://www.emojicode.org/ who would put this much effort in for an esolang??
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20:47:52 <ais523> it's OK, lots of people just lurk on IRC
20:48:03 <ais523> saying nothing until there's a conversation they're interested in
20:48:57 <int-e> . o O ( Applello! is a nice portmanteau, or should it have one 'l' less? )
20:49:15 <Sgeo> Emojicode has its own bytecode compiler and.. JIT I think
20:49:33 <Sgeo> And I don't think it just translates emoji into keywords for another language or anything trivial like that
20:50:01 <fizzie> ais523: I don't feel like I own it, so possibly not. And I'm really sceptical about those visitor numbers.
20:50:06 <ais523> TheSquashyApple: this one seems to have been archived in the Wayback Machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20060620061727/http://chimpen.com:80/l33t/
20:50:07 <int-e> oerjan: you're the portmantexpert, would you prefer applello or applelo?
20:51:21 <ais523> it's a BF derivative so it should be easy enough to implement yourself
20:52:47 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why its while loop is called if
20:54:28 <fizzie> ais523: We get less than that many *requests* per day, and a big chunk of those are crawlers of various kinds.
20:54:29 <oerjan> int-e: ThelloSquashyApple hth
20:54:53 <fizzie> Also their "Monthly Unique Visitors" is exactly 30 times "Daily Unique Visitors", which implies nobody ever comes back.
20:55:01 <ais523> so hmm, does this mean that an above-average number of our viewers have Alexa opt-in spyware installed?
20:55:16 <ais523> or right, that is a pretty suspicious relationship
20:55:20 <ais523> and/or complete failure of maths
20:56:59 <oerjan> Heraclitus' SEO company: you cannot get the same visitor twice
20:57:56 <int-e> I imagine they have a statistical model based on a sample of a dozen websites ... with factors like size of website, age, links coming in and out
20:58:16 <fizzie> alexa.com's similar page says the top 5 search keywords that send traffic to us are, in order, "wierd", "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa", "aaaaaaaaaaaaa", "weird" and "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa".
20:58:52 <fizzie> The upstream sites (which sites visited before) list is at least pretty believable: google, ycombinator.com and stackexchange.com.
20:59:01 <int-e> what's so special about 14 a's in a row
20:59:16 <oerjan> well one of them is an esolang
20:59:28 <int-e> Thanks, google: "Searches related to aaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
20:59:59 <int-e> one of them is "american association against acronym abuse", I wonder what they would say about this channel
21:01:03 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAA, obviously.
21:01:21 <fizzie> Google's search console has a quite different list, and says the top query by far is "brainfuck", followed by "this=that programming language", "ook programming language", "brainfuck example" and "brain fuck".
21:01:44 <fizzie> This is all very brainfuck-heavy.
21:04:33 <fizzie> I don't know what they were actually looking for, but http://esolangs.org/wiki/This=That is the #1 result.
21:05:40 <fizzie> That's an odd plot: https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-clicks.png
21:05:43 <fizzie> The bump is from May 24th to June 10th, during which time everyone wanted to know about brainfuck (and ook), it seems.
21:06:02 <int-e> some contest, maybe?
21:09:15 <int-e> or perhaps it was just https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/680huz/some_fun_with_brainfuck/
21:09:50 <int-e> I like this comment a lot: "We are looking for a passionate Brainfuck systems architect with 15 years experience for a social-media startup that's described like the Uber of bread-and-breakfast stays. The package includes shares, a common table tennis/swimming pool/bathroom space and your own bike parking lot."
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21:22:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: "Uber of bread-and-breakfast stays" is like https://www.xkcd.com/624/
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23:32:41 <zzo38> I thought perhaps that the specification of Unusenet should include specification of "control channels"; no client, server, or echo is required to use them, however. I should need to think of how to do it, or maybe you have idea too
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00:16:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jackojc * New user account
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00:26:25 <HackEgo> supermarionation//Supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom.
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01:14:21 <HackEgo> 1/2:64) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 131) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon \ 1078) <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the progra
01:14:28 <HackEgo> 1/1:phantom_hoover//Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. \ not found//not found? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ metar//metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather. \ pietbot//Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
01:21:10 <shachaf> Is there a programming language that has string diagram syntax?
01:33:53 <zzo38> I don't know. If there is not, you could try to make it up
01:35:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like string diagrams?
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02:58:51 <Cale> shachaf: The proc-do-notation in Haskell is kind of like that... sort of.
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04:10:09 <shachaf> Maybe I should figure that syntax out one day.
04:10:16 <shachaf> What sort of structure do you need for string diagrams, in general?
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04:45:36 <Cale> shachaf: I mean, just vaguely, in that it's sort of also a notation for maps in a symmetric monoidal category
04:45:47 <Cale> You need a weak 2-category
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10:39:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Megaman * New user account
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10:55:01 <int-e> ^8ball are you wise?
10:55:22 <int-e> ^8ball let's make that best out of three?
10:55:32 <int-e> Oh well, you had your chance, fungot.
10:55:34 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i should like to elucidate further, and the proposal takes holding companies into account it is in this respect, i want to thank mr beysen for his kind remarks about women's day, and when we have the question of co-determination. that was also mentioned by frau gebhardt that the cloning of humans. on the contrary, we need to have no bearing whatsoever on the subject, i regularly experience the deficiencies
10:55:41 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
10:58:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:58:53 <shachaf> "europarl" reads like newspeak to me.
11:06:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52402&oldid=52400 * Megaman * (+178)
11:06:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2xNeg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52403 * Megaman * (+829) Created page with "2xNeg is an esoteric programming language based on two types of negation. == Syntax == COMMAND : (NOPARCOMMAND|ONEPARCOMMAND|TWOPARCOMMAND) NOPARCOMMAND : ("v"|"{"|"..."
11:22:52 <int-e> shachaf: well if you were forced to listen to fungot for an hour, but you could choose the style, which one would you choose? ;-)
11:22:52 <fungot> int-e: fnord...?" asks someone in demi explained that ping? pong!' thing, but they tend to carry much more weight than technological ones.
11:23:32 <int-e> (I guess europarl could be monotonic and soothing, in a way.)
11:24:09 <int-e> and amazingly fnord-free.
11:35:24 <fizzie> It may not have had fnords enabled.
11:36:06 <fizzie> It probably also predates my use of variKN for model training.
11:41:36 <fizzie> The corpus is officially called "Europarl", by the way, it's not my own abbreviation. http://www.statmt.org/europarl/
11:48:18 <shachaf> I know, I looked it up before making that comment.
12:12:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MMIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52404&oldid=52095 * B jonas * (+858)
12:15:58 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
12:16:06 <fungot> olsner: :( i see no evidence./ fuegians were probably compelled by other conquering hordes to settle in domestic and wild cats.
12:22:45 <fizzie> fungot: Why did Charles Darwin use so many emoticons in his works?
12:22:47 <fungot> fizzie: geological observations on s. america."/ accompanying sketch, taken from different branches, may want specimens. but from long habit/ term :( unconscious selection, and were thus proved to be to many plants, which were attached to/ so-called fifteenth cervical vertebra occasionally becomes modified into a dorsal vertebra, and is sometimes constricted in parts. it seemed worth while to contradict single cases nor is it/
12:24:10 <olsner> could :( be the darwin fnord?
12:25:42 <fizzie> It's actually the Darwin "of".
12:25:48 <fizzie> And / is the Darwin "the".
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15:48:07 <juh9870> Is there any interpreters for ACRONYM?
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16:17:29 <boily> juhello9870, hellørjan.
16:18:29 <boily> sounds like there aren't any.
16:32:56 <lambdabot> ENVA 091520Z 24007KT 9999 FEW042CB SCT110 17/12 Q1004 RMK WIND 670FT 31004KT
16:33:16 <oerjan> possible thunderstorm supposed to approach.
16:33:38 <lambdabot> LOWI 091520Z 11009KT 080V140 9999 -SHRA FEW008 FEW070CB SCT075 18/17 Q1016 BECMG NSW
16:34:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 091500Z 24014KT 30SM FEW030 FEW120 SCT240 21/14 A2986 RMK CF1AC1CI2 CF TR SLP115 DENSITY ALT 900FT
16:34:04 <lambdabot> Look up METAR weather data for given airport.
16:34:16 <lambdabot> CYQB 091500Z 23008G15KT 25SM FEW028 FEW048 BKN092 BKN200 20/15 A2977 RMK CF1CU2AC3CI2 CF TR SLP083 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
16:34:54 <boily> is there a word where you feel like you are slowly steamed alive at a low temperature?
16:37:17 <int-e> no mention of thunder and lightning, hmm
16:37:32 <oerjan> hm where was that site again
16:39:03 <oerjan> your region definitely seems to have more than the trondheim area http://nb.blitzortung.org/live_lightning_maps.php?map=10
16:39:27 <oerjan> (it seems they've added stupid localized urls)
16:41:36 <int-e> it makes... noise?!
16:42:01 <oerjan> hm i don't hear any. there's a setting unless they've changed it.
16:42:25 <boily> there is a geigercounterlike noise.
16:42:35 <boily> what's a forsinkelse?
16:43:04 <oerjan> hm i actually hear no sound regardless of how i set it.
16:43:22 <int-e> cute site otherwise
16:43:48 <oerjan> ok, so it's doubly stupid and doesn't redirect you to your own language if someone links you?
16:44:15 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure the sound used to work previously.
16:45:14 <int-e> http://en.blitzortung.org/live_lightning_maps.php?map=10 <-- it's encoded in the host name
16:46:21 <int-e> "it" being the language
16:46:28 <oerjan> well that was obvious.
16:46:47 <oerjan> (i suppose you have to know that nb = norwegian bokmål)
16:46:50 <int-e> It almost never hurts to clarify those things.
16:48:00 <juh9870> "-> and -<Push the row that the Targeter is in, in the current Layer right/left" It means that if i have a row like "1 0 3", and i use "->" row turns into "3 1 0"
16:48:58 <oerjan> blogspot's localized urls at least have the decency to redirect automatically, although it still messes up visited link coloring if you've seen a different language version before.
16:49:28 <oerjan> (so i define those as singly stupid.)
16:53:42 * oerjan feels some humidliation as well.
17:15:06 <lambdabot> EGLL 091550Z AUTO 20007KT 140V250 9999 NCD 27/12 Q1011 NOSIG
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17:40:50 <oerjan> this thunderstorm is disappointingly sunny.
17:41:28 <juh9870> hi, ii have aanother question about ACRONYM
17:41:54 <juh9870> iv i'm curently on second memory layer and execute { command i will be sent to first layer
17:42:35 <juh9870> bit if i'm currently on first layer and execute } command
17:42:47 <juh9870> should programm ends, or it just sends me back to 0'th layer?
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18:01:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> "europarl" reads like newspeak to me. <-- parlez vous euro?
18:03:35 <juh9870> oh, after two hours of work i made some commands works: > and <, ^ and v, -> and -<, { and }
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18:11:00 <juh9870> tommorow i will fight against loops
18:11:43 <juh9870> Tslil Clingman, DO YOU HEAR ME??? I WILL HUNT AND KILL YOU!!!!
18:15:29 <juh9870> but it currently 245 lines
18:16:24 <juh9870> 180 without including HTML code
18:19:09 <boily> lines don't matter. weightless code transcends space and memory. you will achieve unity when nothing will have ever been written.
18:20:19 * boily hunts for some coffee
18:20:23 <zzo38> What is currently 245 lines, and 180 without including HTML code?
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18:21:35 <zzo38> And, how can it be called almost nothing? The number of lines of codes needed depend what program
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18:52:02 <lambdabot> EGSC 091650Z 20006KT 9999 SCT051TCU 26/14 Q1009
18:55:14 <juh9870> now i'm think about start working on loops
19:02:29 <juh9870> Also i found an error in the wiki
19:02:47 <juh9870> Second code for printing "T" is incorrect
19:03:37 <juh9870> instead of executing output command it executes input command
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20:02:23 <zzo38> Do you see any type safe way to create objects with native data in N-API? http://nodejs.org/dist/latest-v8.x/docs/api/n-api.html I wanted to have a function to get the finalizer callback of an object, which would help with that, but there isn't one, but do you see any other way that I may have missed?
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20:20:22 <zzo38> Just to know your opinion, would you have thought of doing it a different way than being able to retrieve the finalizer callback?
20:46:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52405 * B jonas * (+14401) Created page with "'''MIX''' is a computer architecture created by Donald Knuth. Knuth is writing a grand monography ''The Art of Computer Programming'', and in older editions of that book, he..."
20:47:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MMIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52406&oldid=52404 * B jonas * (+16)
20:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52407&oldid=13322 * B jonas * (+84)
20:48:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52408&oldid=52378 * B jonas * (+18)
20:50:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52409&oldid=52379 * B jonas * (-14)
20:51:10 <shachaf> Is MIX the oldest computer instruction set?
20:51:35 <shachaf> It predates MMIX by 1000 years.
20:53:05 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think it doesn't 1000 years, just the number is 1000 less
20:57:42 <shachaf> But MMIX was standardized in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Nine.
21:00:44 <HackEgo> ance:Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance,
21:01:01 <HackEgo> mroman:mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare. \ mroman_:mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW) \ superduperinteressantesanderson
21:01:19 <HackEgo> 2/4:nce, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance. \ blsqbot:blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'. \ burlesque:Burlesque is only t
21:01:34 <HackEgo> 2/2:rsonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal:Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
21:04:33 <HackEgo> llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch:Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a village in Wales.
21:10:17 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; sed -i 's/./L/' llanfair*
21:10:18 <HackEgo> llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch//Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a village in Wales.
21:15:15 <fizzie> "You can currently only use the internet in the UK and abroad."
21:15:28 <fizzie> The word "only" here is confusing me a little.
21:18:13 <Taneb> Maybe you can't use anything else
21:19:05 <oerjan> . o O ( probably excludes Jersey, Guernsey and Isle of Man )
21:19:07 <int-e> won't work on the moon or Mars?
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21:20:50 <int-e> hmm, that Korean missile launch is becoming a bit of a mystery; why does US Pacific Command say they tracked the missile for 37 minutes when Russia says it flew for 13 minutes, 44 seconds?
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21:21:47 <int-e> (sources, http://allthingsnuclear.org/dwright/north-korea-appears-to-launch-missile-with-6700-km-range and https://www.rt.com/news/395791-north-korea-russia-un/ )
21:21:49 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> Is MIX the oldest computer instruction set?" => no, the sand thingy from ICFP predates it
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21:23:18 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, so in that case the number for the processor is the same as the year; that is not always the case though.
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21:26:08 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/5wmbxRh
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21:30:37 <\oren\> https://pastebin.com/VsafetmZ
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21:32:09 <\oren\> kerboscript is awesome
21:53:59 <zzo38> Is there such thing as numeric ICAO codes?
21:54:19 <zzo38> (For use when a numeric code is needed and the alphabetic code is not suitable)
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21:58:02 <ais523> I assume you'd just take the alphabetic code and run it through a numeric encoding of the alphabet
22:00:11 <zzo38> Yes, and one way could be base26, I suppose. Numeric ICAO codes can be invented if they do not already exist.
22:06:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52410&oldid=52405 * B jonas * (+1781)
22:20:03 <int-e> zzo38: you could also use the ITA2 alphabet to get 5 bits per letter.
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22:20:37 <zzo38> Yes, that is another way, and possibly in some cases it might be better
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22:39:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52411 * Gemdude46 * (+1747) Created page with "@ is a golfing language created and maintained by [[User:Gemdude46]]. It is still in its very early stages. An interpreter, vague documentation and some examples are available..."
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00:37:47 <\oren\> https://pastebin.com/s2Ga8rRY
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02:23:18 <zzo38> I am in the process of making the interface to Swiss Ephemeris for use with JavaScript, by use of N-API.
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02:36:55 <zzo38> There are some thing it does not do because Swiss Ephemeris does not have, such as house positions (and sidereal time) relative to planets (and also moon and sun) other than the Earth, calculation of moons of other planets, rotation of other planets, etc
02:43:18 <zzo38> How can I add these other thing that is missing?
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04:13:34 <shachaf> http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/35_pt/look_around_you.jpg
04:13:43 <shachaf> Look Aroud You's periodic table
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04:49:33 <Cale> segnomin (thomason's oil)
04:56:50 <\oren\> https://pastebin.com/nneEPW2g
04:57:55 <shachaf> You should annotate your KSP links.
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05:07:43 <shachaf> Indicate that people who don't care about KSP don't need to click on them.
05:09:43 <zzo38> Just indicating that it is KSP should be good enough, I suppose
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05:50:31 <lifthrasiir> I was interested in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method#Early_Cangjie_system for a long time
05:51:07 <lifthrasiir> https://p.mearie.org/gOHG.png it works surprisingly well, given its size (approx <500KB combined)
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06:07:59 <zzo38> If you know some thing about astronomy, how can you figure the signed phase angle? There is a picture here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Phase_Angle_3.jpg but I will want the answer to be negative if the Earth is on the other side of the line (the angle will be the same though)
06:16:45 <zzo38> (Also, that picture is JPEG even though it can work better as PNG, if converted to pure black and white, and that stb_image is unable to load that JPEG file.)
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07:20:10 <zzo38> I think I figured it out (maybe)
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08:30:16 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: The other thing then is the Cangjie encoding. For Chinese texts it seem like might be good to have
08:30:45 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: I was aware of it, but I didn't know about specifics (e.g. the exact encoding form, rendering strategy etc)
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08:39:53 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: if my analysis is correct, the bulk of data is actually the ideographic decomposition map (down to individual strokes or semi-strokes); the resulting instructions are rendered by the "font routine" which is a vector-drawing machine with some size-constrained hinting mechanism (I presume)
08:41:30 <lifthrasiir> what I'm unsure is whether the decomposition map itself can be directly visualized or not
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10:05:34 <lambdabot> monochrom says: no, you're thinking imperatively. when thinking functionally, you just worry one element, and let recursion worry the rest
10:05:40 <lambdabot> monochrom says: And so, I use formal logic all the time, and can still be very practical and speedy. This is contrary to most people's conventional wisdom. This is because they have only seen very
10:05:40 <lambdabot> primitive formal logics, like if you have only seen assembly code, you think programming is undoable.
10:05:45 <lambdabot> No quotes match. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
10:05:49 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Obession with operational semantics is a fundamental disease of imperative programmers (including imperative OO ones).
10:05:55 <lambdabot> monochrom says: How do I extract the IO out of IO String?
10:06:40 <shachaf> "if you have only seen assembly code, you think programming is undoable"
10:07:29 <shachaf> I think that's only true if your assembly code is for a reversible machine.
10:08:24 <izabera> what's a reversible machine?
10:15:58 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Kayak is closer to a serious answer
10:17:35 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing
10:22:33 <myname> wasn't there a language where programs built a group over concatenation?
11:23:25 <shachaf> \oren\: SoundHound has worked for me exactly once.
11:24:24 <Vorpal> shachaf: how many times has it failed to work?
11:25:26 <Vorpal> My point was, have you tried it more than a handful of times?
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11:25:47 <shachaf> I don't know. It showed me 20 searches in the history just now, but probably many of them were repeated attempts.
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11:26:02 <shachaf> And I probably cleared the history and/or switched phones at least once.
11:26:08 <Vorpal> shachaf: From googling, it seems to be similar to TrackID?
11:26:26 <Vorpal> which is some Sony thing that came preinstalled on my Sony phone
11:26:46 <Vorpal> which seems to only handle mainstream music
11:26:47 <shachaf> I always try it with music in my head, not music I hear.
11:27:05 <Vorpal> what, humming the music?
11:27:08 <shachaf> It tells you to hum, whistle, or sing.
11:27:24 <Vorpal> oh, yeah trackid doesn't even pretend to be able to do that
11:27:45 <shachaf> It's a tricky thing, to be fair.
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11:28:36 <Vorpal> anyway trackid kind of works, in low noise conditions, and if the music is popular enough. Good luck identifying obscure folk/world music
11:29:20 <shachaf> The song it identified was "Song from a Secret Garden", which is part of an album called "Songs from a Secret Garden", by a band called "Secret Garden".
11:29:26 <shachaf> I think this one is a bit famous?
11:30:25 <shachaf> Wait, maybe it identified this one from listening to a recording, not humming.
11:42:56 <int-e> . o O ( "try whistling in tune" )
11:44:08 <shachaf> Do you mean approximately the same frequencies as the original, or just the same ratios?
11:44:42 <shachaf> Can I transpose everything up by a semitone? How about 4.5 semitones? I assume any good system should handle that.
11:44:45 <int-e> I think it really means the former, and no I can't think of a good reason why the program wouldn't compensate for that.
11:45:01 <shachaf> Anyway, when I want to use this program, I barely know the tune in the first place.
11:45:14 <shachaf> I have a small fragment of it in my head that I can barely grasp onto.
11:52:17 <int-e> it sounds as awful as the concept it embodies, does that make it onomatopoeia?
11:53:14 <shachaf> I liked this talk: http://www.ludix.com/moriarty/apology.html
11:53:36 <shachaf> It's by the same person as that talk in The Witness that you may or may not have heard.
11:56:09 <int-e> I see, http://www.ludix.com/moriarty/psalm46.html
11:59:14 <int-e> anyway I recall I spent that time cooking, in and out of the room (it's a small flat, I could listen from the kitchen in principle but of course there were distractions)
11:59:38 <shachaf> What would you do with fresh diced tomatoes?
12:00:07 <shachaf> I diced some tomatoes to make salad, but then it turned out the other vegetables I planned to use were rotten.
12:00:17 <shachaf> So I needed to make quick use of diced fresh tomatoes.
12:00:50 <Vorpal> the tomatoes that is, not the rotten food
12:00:58 <shachaf> (I ended up cooking them into a sort of sauce and jamming up rice with it.)
12:01:13 <Vorpal> shachaf: maybe oven baked tomatoes?
12:02:31 <Vorpal> yeah tomatoes, parmesan and some herbs (preferably fresh, but tried probably works too)
12:03:23 <shachaf> Do you pronounce the h in herbs?
12:03:39 <Vorpal> shachaf: I say kryddor in Swedish instead.
12:04:02 <Vorpal> but isn't the h thing a dialect thing?
12:04:18 <Vorpal> It is probably "erbs" in RP
12:04:27 <int-e> . o O ( herbe Enttäuschung )
12:04:48 <shachaf> I thought the h was pronounced in British English in general.
12:04:51 <Vorpal> and I'm not sure if I pronounce the h. Probably varies?
12:05:10 <Vorpal> From a Swedish point of view it would make more sense to pronounce it
12:05:27 <int-e> Pretty sure I'd pronounce it as well.
12:05:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: dragon is the Swedish name for tarragon
12:06:08 <Vorpal> with the h pronounced or not?
12:06:27 <shachaf> Is there a good way to dice tomatoes?
12:06:43 <shachaf> It's one of the most awkward kitchen activities.
12:06:49 <Vorpal> well I'm going to settle for the compromise, and pronounce it slightly :P
12:07:00 <int-e> . o O ( freeze and saw... no I don't think that's actually a good way )
12:07:05 <Vorpal> shachaf: plastic cutting board?
12:07:18 <Vorpal> use less watery tomatoes?
12:07:30 <Vorpal> there are many sub-species
12:07:39 <Vorpal> yes sharp knifes are good
12:07:50 <Vorpal> shachaf: do you pronounce the k in knife?
12:08:18 <shachaf> Vorpal: The trouble is that you need three axes of cutting.
12:08:19 <Vorpal> English is weird with it's non-pronounced letters. Why not just spell it nife then?
12:08:43 <shachaf> Silent e is properly bizarre.
12:08:51 <int-e> The funny thing about knot theory is that it's knot theory.
12:09:07 <Vorpal> shachaf: don't agree with the y
12:09:24 <FireFly> I'd read "nif" as with /i:/
12:09:27 <shachaf> only a naïf would spell it that way
12:09:36 <lambdabot> *** "naif" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:09:37 <lambdabot> adj 1: marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of
12:09:37 <lambdabot> guile or worldly experience; "a teenager's naive
12:09:37 <lambdabot> ignorance of life"; "the naive assumption that things can
12:09:41 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: Prelude.init: empty list
12:10:03 <Vorpal> a naive person is a naif? Didn't know that word
12:10:07 <int-e> that's.... interesting
12:10:16 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: Prelude.init: empty list
12:10:30 <int-e> I suppose it has always done this
12:10:31 <shachaf> To my mind, i is a vowel and y is a consonant
12:10:45 <shachaf> And "knife" has a consonant
12:10:50 <int-e> It shows off the maturity of Haskell as a programming language.
12:10:56 <Vorpal> True, in English y is a consonant
12:11:27 <int-e> this is making me angry!
12:11:34 <Vorpal> y is a vowel in Swedish though
12:11:57 <int-e> shachaf: "angry" is a word where "y" is not a consonant.
12:12:07 <int-e> no, the @more thing doesn't really bother me.
12:12:16 <int-e> I might fix it, but I feel no sense of urgency.
12:12:33 <shachaf> Oh, sure. ybden is probably angry.
12:12:43 <Vorpal> aeyiuoåäö are vowels in Swedish
12:13:08 <Vorpal> Funny, almost all the vowels are on the upper row of qwerty
12:13:16 <shachaf> Do you like mushrooms in Sweden?
12:13:18 <Vorpal> in English, all of them apart from a?
12:13:40 <Vorpal> shachaf: depends on what sort I guess? I prefer the edible ones that don't kill me :P
12:14:32 <shachaf> That's a popular mushroom.
12:14:51 <Vorpal> yes, but I don't actively go out looking for them. Too much work, and I'm bad at spotting them
12:15:26 <Vorpal> So *why* are the vowels predominately on the top row of qwerty?
12:15:46 <shachaf> It makes sense to group vowels together if they're rarely combined.
12:16:21 <shachaf> Not sure why not put them on the home row.
12:16:40 <Vorpal> but wasn't qwerty designed for slow writing originally? To not break typewriters?
12:16:54 <shachaf> No, it was designed to not break typewrites.
12:17:09 <Vorpal> aöä are the only vowels on the home row for me
12:17:13 <shachaf> Which means you don't want adjacent keys to be pressed immediately one after the other.
12:17:37 <shachaf> But putting common letter combinations far apart actually speeds you up because you can use both hands.
12:18:02 <shachaf> I don't know whether this is true but it makes more sense to me than "slows you down".
12:18:10 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Jul 10 04:18:07 2017
12:18:13 <int-e> the adjacency relation is probably this: qazwsxedcrfvtgbyhnujmik,ol.p;/[']
12:18:16 <lambdabot> Local time for Vorpal is Mon Jul 10 13:18:16
12:18:20 <shachaf> Good luck with your mushroom hunting.
12:18:31 <Vorpal> shachaf: I don't go mushroom hunting
12:18:37 <Vorpal> I don't find it enoyable :P
12:18:43 <shachaf> Then you'll need an awful lot of luck.
12:18:57 <shachaf> Maybe some morels will grow in your back yard?
12:19:03 <int-e> (rows are interleaved if I remember the workings of the mechanical typewriter that we got to play with as kids correctly)
12:19:07 <Vorpal> int-e: oh? kind of vertically, right, makes some sense
12:19:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: I don't have a backyard, I live in a apartment on the second floor
12:19:34 <int-e> oh, digits go in there as well I suppose
12:19:52 <Vorpal> well, a condo I guess the correct term is
12:20:03 <shachaf> Vorpal: Every statement you make suggests that you need *more* luck, not less.
12:20:17 <shachaf> What's the difference between a condo and an apartment?
12:20:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: I think the form of ownership?
12:20:49 <Vorpal> shachaf: I own the apartment as opposed to rent it.
12:21:05 <shachaf> But you still pay some form of rent, right?
12:21:10 <shachaf> For the shared building expenses?
12:21:13 <Vorpal> google translate says bostadsrätt -> condominium
12:21:29 <shachaf> What a bizarre chemical element.
12:21:39 <Vorpal> shachaf: yes, there is that
12:22:17 <Vorpal> shachaf: but I can renovate and do whatever I like with the interior
12:22:17 <shachaf> Should I buy an apartment?
12:22:39 <Vorpal> I can't tell you that. You will have to decide based on your life situation if that makes sense for you or not
12:23:12 <Vorpal> Also the market is probably different in US than Sweden
12:23:41 <shachaf> Especially in this area of the US.
12:24:12 <shachaf> I think the price/rent ratio is much higher here than elsewhere in the country.
12:24:17 <Vorpal> I need to buy some sour milk, almost out of it.
12:24:33 <shachaf> Can you wait for your regular milk to become sour?
12:25:08 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filmj%C3%B6lk ?
12:25:14 <Vorpal> shachaf: will likely not be the proper bacterial culture and thus will be poisonous
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12:25:49 <shachaf> Well, it's only most likely, not certain.
12:26:01 <shachaf> So you can get some of the excitement of mushroom hunting.
12:26:32 <shachaf> If you pick some random mushroom, it might be poisonous or delicious.
12:26:52 <Vorpal> shachaf: or possibly hallucinogenic
12:28:51 <shachaf> I may try your tomato trick.
12:30:04 <shachaf> The thing about tomatoes is that there's an amazing amount of variance in quality.
12:31:31 <Vorpal> shachaf: especially home growns
12:31:42 <Vorpal> they are better quality than shop bought ones
12:31:50 <Vorpal> even better than organic ones
12:32:22 <shachaf> Are vegetables labeled as "organic" a good idea to buy?
12:32:36 <Vorpal> shachaf: organic food is food produced without using pesticides
12:32:45 <shachaf> Does organic farming produce vegetables that are more delicious or more healthy?
12:32:52 <shachaf> What? That doesn't sound right.
12:33:00 <shachaf> Do you mean without certain classes of pesticides?
12:33:27 <Vorpal> nope, I meant what I said.
12:33:28 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food
12:33:41 <shachaf> "For instance, naturally occurring pesticides such as pyrethrin and rotenone are permitted, while synthetic fertilizers and pesticides are generally prohibited."
12:33:54 <shachaf> Oh, that's not your article, that's Organic_farming
12:34:14 <Vorpal> well yeah it is the same. Some plants produce pesticides in and of themselves
12:34:51 <shachaf> Is organic farming sustainable? Does it waste resources?
12:35:01 <shachaf> "organic" means so many different things.
12:35:03 <Vorpal> anyway I read a study a while ago that showed that the levels of various toxins in the body decreased dramatically after eating only organic food for about a week.
12:35:24 <shachaf> Sometimes, when referring to animal products, it can mean the animals are treated better. Or sometimes not.
12:35:32 <Vorpal> shachaf: 1) maybe 2) not really, depends on your definition
12:35:48 <Vorpal> shachaf: the Swedish terms are more precise I feel like
12:35:59 <Vorpal> no it was a Swedish study I think
12:36:16 <Vorpal> not sure I could find it, was maybe 1-2 years ago
12:36:18 <shachaf> I sometimes get the impression that "organic" is primarily a marketing term designed to part rich people from their fAu.
12:36:35 <shachaf> Maybe the Swedish version is better.
12:36:47 <Vorpal> shachaf: also, there are issues with pesticides killing off good insects as well. Like bees.
12:37:14 <Vorpal> well, there is a standards organization with certification
12:37:21 <shachaf> On the other hand I'm rich by some measures, so maybe I should buy organic food to be on the safe side.
12:37:44 <Vorpal> not sure if US has anything like KRAV
12:37:56 <shachaf> It's not a matter of price but a matter of principle.
12:38:13 <shachaf> Anyway, it's way too late.
12:38:18 <shachaf> I'm going to try to sleep.
12:39:54 <Vorpal> anyway, you will have to study the topic and make up your own mind about it. I buy exclusively organic food for any food where it is available. (I.e. there is no organic salt, probably because the definition wouldn't make any sense)
12:41:04 <Vorpal> shachaf: Good organic cheese can be hard to find as well. Other than that, I would say Sweden is probably one of the countries in the world where it is easiest to find organic alternatives
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13:25:58 <Cale> shachaf: ahaha, I just noticed on the look around you periodic table, Music has the numbers 4 4, while Jazz has 5 4
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15:01:09 <int-e> shachaf: funny that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Moriarty should call that video an Easter egg.
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17:55:40 <HackEgo> olist 1081: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:55:45 <wob_jonas> yes, apparently just two days after 1080
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18:02:26 <shachaf> Vorpal: I live in Berkeley, CA. I don't think it's very difficult to find things labeled "organic".
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18:03:12 <shachaf> int-e: Funny indeed. Did they listen to the talk?
18:03:45 <Vorpal> Why am I trying to use LaTeX to print labels for the back of binders...
18:04:15 <int-e> shachaf: ironically one bit that I did not listen to was where he says what the topic of the lecture is :-P (I skimmed the transcript)
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18:05:07 <Vorpal> The uniformity and the exact typesettings were my original goals. Plus cutting guides and such. But getting LaTeX to actually place something at exact coordinates on a page and then make it line up across all pages is painful
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18:07:05 <HackEgo> russell's teapot//Russell's little Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
18:07:13 <HackEgo> 785) <oklopol> zzo38: i only like games whose names start with "mine"
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18:09:33 <Vorpal> I mean, on some binders I want one or more lines of subtitles (like 2014-2017). This tends to move the title up compared to other binders. Such that the titles don't line up across the different binders
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18:10:34 <Vorpal> I guess LaTeX just isn't great for when you *do* want to worry about the layout. In that case you need to make your own style file I guess. Which is way over my LaTeX skills currently.
18:11:18 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Don't standard healing spells work against the virus?
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18:14:19 <zzo38> I just use Plain TeX (and have used it to make a label on the back of a binder once)
18:16:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that would need someone who can cast a level 3 cleric spell, and they'd probably have to do that for each creature on the airship at close to the same time.
18:16:45 <ais523> shachaf: there has been in-comic discussion of how that works already
18:17:04 <wob_jonas> It's not a spell bards have access to.
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18:17:19 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC related to the control weather thing
18:17:23 <shachaf> I guess curing disease is distinct from curing wounds.
18:17:34 <ais523> the vampire in Durkon's body uses control weather directly against a thunderstorm sent by Thor
18:17:48 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, sure, a discussion saying that they could indeed use standard healing spells.
18:17:56 <ais523> and Thor has to let it succeed due to an agreement among the gods to allow each others' clerics to intervene
18:18:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, it can be done by the specific level 3 Cure Disease spell, or the level 6 Heal spell.
18:18:03 <shachaf> But I suppose they don't have convenient access to a cleric.
18:18:05 <ais523> so standard healing spells should work here on the same reasoning
18:18:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem is that #1081 says every creature on the airship is inflected. That's a lot of people and animals.
18:18:44 <ais523> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm
18:18:53 <ais523> in theory, Belkar could cast it if given a Wisdom boost
18:18:57 <ais523> I think the odds of that happening are pretty low
18:19:21 <Vorpal> zzo38: TeX without addons? Hm
18:19:32 <ais523> however, the duration is long enough that it should be fixable after the current arc is over
18:19:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: even in that unlikely case, Belkar could only cast it a few times
18:19:46 <Vorpal> zzo38: or is Plain TeX a specific addon to TeX?
18:20:38 <wob_jonas> they'd have a much higher chance to pay multiple clerics next time they stay in a town. but they just left a town and then a meeting of clerics.
18:20:44 <zzo38> Vorpal: Plain TeX is the default addon to TeX.
18:21:31 <wob_jonas> Plain TeX is the canon default template file in the sense that it's one of the templates Knuth himself has made and it's the one the TeXbook describes
18:21:32 <shachaf> Why not boost Belkar's wisdom again?
18:21:37 <Vorpal> yeah I'm googling for high level LaTeX solutions currently. There seem to be a few options. Not sure how well they will fit though.
18:22:35 <Vorpal> or if they solve my specific problem of lining specific types of lines up across multiple pages/labels. I already found a solution to putting multiple small pages on a single standard A4
18:24:02 <zzo38> If you are making labels rather than a book, you might also use a different output routine than the default one.
18:24:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: because (a) boosting his wisdom was a joke, it doesn't really work, (b) it's a level 3 spell, you'd have to boost his wisdom to at least 13, which is likely impossible as his base is probably too low and the standard wisdom boost spell only gives +4,
18:24:29 <Vorpal> zzo38: different style?
18:24:39 <Vorpal> or document class as it were
18:24:56 <Vorpal> that is what I'm searching for at the moment
18:25:00 <wob_jonas> (c) even if they did that, he'd get at most two uses of a level 3 spell per day, and the Cure Disease spell only fixes one person, and that person can be reinfected.
18:25:14 <Vorpal> https://ctan.org/pkg/labels and https://www.ctan.org/pkg/ticket both seems potentially relevant
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18:27:37 <wob_jonas> (d) Owl's Wisdom can bring Belkar through the wisdom limit, but it doesn't count for the number of spells prepared, which I think will probably still be zero for Belkar because of his low base wisdom
18:28:13 <wob_jonas> (the spell is specified like this because regaining spells takes a rest of at least two hours, but Owl's Wisdom increases someone's wisdom only for a few minutes)
18:29:06 <ais523> (d) was my largest objection to the plan
18:29:11 <ais523> the others are pretty relevant too, though
18:29:17 <ais523> (fwiw, I think (a) is caused by (d))
18:30:07 <Vorpal> seems like it based on context. Or it is MtG knowing this channel
18:30:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, (a) is caused mostly by (d) and partly by (b)
18:30:56 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: D&D, related to what happens in the Order of the Stick strip #1081
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18:31:23 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: I tried to ask about M:tG rules too yesterday, but ais523 denied that he knew them
18:31:26 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I played a couple of systems, but never DnD itself.
18:31:42 <ais523> I'm not an expert on them
18:32:07 <shachaf> So the last time his wisdom score was raised it was used for casting a scroll.
18:32:24 <Vorpal> Savage World, Apocalypse World and a pretty good yet to be published Swedish system (I have a friend who is really into designing role playing systems)
18:33:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait wait, (a) can't be caused by (d). The joke use was for a scroll, the number of prepared spells doesn't matter for that, only a spell difficulty check does, right?
18:33:23 <Vorpal> Actually it wasn't Apocalypse World, but Dungeon World iirc, same style of system, different theme though.
18:34:00 <Vorpal> (I'm not an expert at this)
18:34:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: one thing that could work though is potions of Remove Disease. Those exist.
18:34:45 <wob_jonas> And we've recently seen that the OotS was lucky and found two or three cheap source of potions, besides the usual random drops and shops
18:37:38 <wob_jonas> And using potions is easy in general, even without a cleric the OotS would manage.
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18:39:51 <Vorpal> looks like the ticket package for LaTeX will be able to do what I want. Maybe or maybe not crop marks in light gray though. It can do crop marks certainly
18:45:51 <int-e> . o O ( Newton is overrated. His work on calculus was very much derivative. )
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19:30:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: I did not mention different style, different document class, I said a different output routine.
19:32:56 <zzo38> I did write also a program to rasterize DVI files into PBM format, which can then be converted by use of foo2zjs or whatever, into the format needed for the printer.
19:33:43 <zzo38> wob_jonas: What M:tG rules you try to ask about please?
19:35:10 <wob_jonas> zzo38: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/17.07.07 use of linked abilities of a permanent when that permanent has got those abilities indirectly through either a copy effect or a quicksilver effect
19:35:28 <wob_jonas> I think I asked you too a few months ago, when ais wasn't here
19:37:04 <zzo38> I don't know either, unfortunately.
19:37:07 <wob_jonas> I'm primarily interested in a general rule, not rulings for specific cases.
19:37:28 <wob_jonas> Or at least a general rule when quicksilver effects aren't involved.
19:51:35 <zzo38> I would think that it can still remember, although it is entirely unclear.
19:54:02 <wob_jonas> 607.5 is phrased unclearly. It does seem to claim at least that the ability on an object can't ever be linked with an ability on another object, so you can't eg. exile cards with one permanent and use them by activating the ability on another permanent.
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19:55:04 <wob_jonas> But 607.1a seems to contradicts this. I think 607.1a tries to clarify how cards like Cho-Manno's Blessing or Ward Sliver work.
19:57:08 <zzo38> Yes, the rules are entirely unclear. My opinion is that a precise mathematically elegant and logical framework should be described by the rules, in order to make these things clear, because as it is, some things aren't so clear.
19:57:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but developing and maintaining such a framework might not be economically worth for anyone
19:58:45 <zzo38> I would be willing to help work on such thing
20:05:22 <zzo38> I would have think better might be made by "AST graph linking", and the way I am thinking, they would still work, although in the case of Ward Sliver it is "instantiated parameterized keyword ability", although similar things can still be done with nonkeyword abilities too if needed.
20:06:47 <zzo38> There is all sort of stuff like that (and stuff somewhat similar, including stuff already exist but now I made up the name for it), such as "persistent property", "mana step", "kind", "initial text", etc.
20:07:35 <zzo38> What will you think of it?
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20:15:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: In fact, even instants like Blessed Breath may count. There are even more of those than auras Cho-Manno's Blessing. (I have several of both of these categories in my collection. At one point I decided granting protection was cool and bought a lot of them.)
20:17:08 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I did write also a program to rasterize DVI files into PBM format, which can then be converted by use of foo2zjs or whatever, into the format needed for the printer. <-- not sure why that is relevant. The output routine would be like "pdftex" or "luatex"?
20:17:32 <Vorpal> or what do you mean by that term
20:18:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: An output routine is something defined in the TeX file, by using the \output command. Once a page is completed, it calls that, which then adds headers and footers, and ships it out to the DVI file.
20:21:33 <wob_jonas> Permanents that grant protection or landwalk with a choosable parameter include: Cho-Manno's Blessing, Flickering Ward (costs W), Floating Shield, Pentarch Ward, Riders of Gavony, Runed Halo (strange one), Traveler's Cloak, Ward of Light, Ward Sliver.
20:22:30 <Vorpal> however the ticket LaTeX package seems to be usable for my needs.
20:22:38 <Vorpal> so no need to reinvent the wheel
20:23:08 <wob_jonas> Yes, although you don't really need a custom output routine to get specific positions. You can just adjust various distance parameters.
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20:44:29 <\oren\> while(1){ if(n == 0) break; n--; ... }
20:45:28 <doesthiswork> maybe they just want to make sure that the loop is entered at least once
20:46:25 <doesthiswork> programming is about more than just fill in the blanks
20:46:28 <\oren\> I'm replacing it with while(n--!=0)
20:48:29 <\oren\> the freedom to write three lines instead of 1?
20:50:30 <doesthiswork> exactly! real programmers aren't satisfied with the limiting abstractions
20:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52412&oldid=23594 * Zseri * (+134) /* Examples */
20:56:10 <fizzie> while (1) { if(n == 0) break; n--; ... } and while (n--!=0) { ... } aren't the same thing if 'n' is used after the loop.
21:00:30 <doesthiswork> on a serious topic, ++, --, pop, and get seem similar because they use up a value off a sequence, are there common uses for ++,-- that don't fit into this?
21:00:49 <myname> it should at leas be while(--n!=0)
21:02:24 <fizzie> Well, that's pretty different as well, since it won't run the body as n == 0.
21:03:11 <doesthiswork> the solution for n--!=0 would be just to increment it after the loop
21:03:55 <fizzie> The use of ++ in something that builds a histogram as in for (...) h[i]++; doesn't sound like "use up a value off a sequence" to me.
21:04:51 <doesthiswork> fizze: I'll ignore all the cases where ++ is only used for its side effect
21:05:57 <fizzie> I'm sure there's an esolang implementation somewhere using *++p = x; for something tape-related.
21:07:41 <doesthiswork> ok, that is quite different from using up a value.
21:14:53 <\oren\> ^ the above is, amazingly, NOT undefined behaviour
21:15:26 <\oren\> it incements the value p points to and then increments p
21:15:59 <Vorpal> \oren\: how is that not undefined... Where is the sequence point?
21:15:59 <shachaf> How would you write a loop that loops over both indices and elements of an array?
21:16:25 <shachaf> An array has one more index than it has elements.
21:16:29 <Vorpal> doesthiswork: you may need some parentheses?
21:16:40 <\oren\> Vorpal: there is none needed, since p is only modified once
21:16:54 <\oren\> and the vlaue p points to is only modified once
21:17:03 <\oren\> so no sequnce point problem
21:17:24 <Vorpal> \oren\: what makes it increment the pointed to value before the pointer though?
21:17:28 <shachaf> Would you write: for (i = 0; ; i++) { ...i...; if (i == len) break; ...a[i]...; }
21:18:05 <\oren\> Vorpal: ++x returns the incremented vlaue. x++ returns the value, then increments it
21:18:34 <\oren\> or (increments it, then returns the original value)
21:18:35 <Vorpal> does ++prefix have higher operator precedence than suffix++?
21:18:54 <Vorpal> I thought they had the same precedence
21:19:16 <\oren\> all suffixes attach more strongly than prefixes
21:19:31 <Vorpal> well that explains it then
21:19:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: *x++': not found
21:20:10 <Vorpal> it is not code that I write very often, (and if I ever saw that in a code review I would not accept it)
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21:20:44 <Vorpal> \oren\: anyway what doesthiswork suggested, could you do this multiple layers with something like int** p; ?
21:20:49 <\oren\> just like `*x[1]' <=> `*(x[1])'
21:20:59 <Vorpal> and would you at that point need parentheses?
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21:21:16 <\oren\> --*++*p++ would work fine
21:21:25 <shachaf> Did you know this is valid C99? int foo(int x, int y[f(x)]) { ... }
21:21:52 <shachaf> Did you know this is valid C99? int foo(int n, int m, int a[n][m]) { ... }
21:21:56 <Vorpal> shachaf: the function call in the [] is valid? what does it do?
21:22:01 <shachaf> The value of n isn't used but the value of m is.
21:22:09 <Vorpal> I thought it had to be a immediate constant
21:22:10 <shachaf> Vorpal: It's evaluated when the function is called.
21:22:31 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, C99 specifies the optional dynamic sized arrays feature. it's a controversial topic: some people love it, and some people hate it.
21:22:32 <\oren\> shachaf: oh, and then you get the result by using sizeof? neat!
21:22:41 <Vorpal> shachaf: so... that becomes available to the sizeof operator inside the function then?
21:22:41 <wob_jonas> I personally dislike C99 dynamic sized arrays.
21:23:23 <shachaf> It's used for multidimensiona array indexing.
21:23:34 <Vorpal> I don't like dynamically sized stuff on the stack, but elsewhere I don't care.
21:23:57 <Vorpal> \oren\: is the ++*p++ thing valid C++ as well hm
21:24:13 <Vorpal> I assume it would be, but you can't be sure
21:24:57 <Vorpal> C++ really did have *some* good ideas for how to improve C. Namespaces for example. Shame it had soooo many bad ideas.
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21:31:02 <Vorpal> Also templates could have been neat, had they NOT been turing complete. I had to write specialized functions for different data types before in C, that could have been auto generated in C++ with templates. Such is the world of inner loops of embedded software
21:33:51 <\oren\> operator overloading was amistake
21:35:28 <\oren\> specifically, the way operator overloading is used in the C++ standard library is a huuge mistake
21:35:50 <int-e> such strong opinions
21:36:02 <\oren\> << and >> sould never have been used for io
21:36:59 <\oren\> iostream is a massive, globally-reaching fuckup
21:38:26 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think operator overloading in C++ is fine in general. There are some minor problems connected to operator overloading, some of which are minor design mistakes (some of which could be fixed even now), some are overzelous operator overloading in certain third-party libraries.
21:39:21 <\oren\> and of course, string concatenation should never have been +
21:40:44 <wob_jonas> One thing I particularly hate is how the C++ standard doesn't support C99 builtin complex floating point types, but only the old std::complex class template with operator overloading.
21:41:07 <wob_jonas> What's the point? All sane compilers want to support C99 builtin complex floats, so why not just allow them in C++ too?
21:41:38 <\oren\> doesthiswork: that would be ok, but you know what would be better?
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> Gcc allows them fine, but it would be nice if certain details (like which macros are still defined in C++ when you load the header) should be standardized so that this could be used portably.
21:42:01 <int-e> \oren\: overloaded whitespace
21:42:33 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: you can overload the combination / *
21:43:30 <int-e> Anyway, personally I find the << >> iostream thing rather cute.
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21:44:08 <int-e> I don't like how awful formatting is, even with iomanip
21:45:11 <ybden> shachaf: void (*foo)(void) = ...; void (*bar)(void) = **********foo;
21:45:38 <shachaf> I think C++ should support arbitrary operators rather than just the built-in ones.
21:46:03 <shachaf> I was just talking about that the other day.
21:46:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it sort of does, but you have to use named functions for them and use ADL. Such ops use only slightly different rules than true punctuation operators.
21:46:54 <ybden> Isn't C a wonderful language
21:47:28 <shachaf> I should write my C code explicitly.
21:47:34 <int-e> . o O ( A great source of vulnerabilities )
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> One problem is that there are a few named functions (but not all) where the standard library and its standard specs is badly designed, so it's sometimes unclear how the user should specialize certain functions for which C++ provides a default impl but are often specialized.
21:47:39 <shachaf> So call every function by writing (&f)(...) instead of f(...)
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21:49:17 <shachaf> Maybe? I don't think I follow.
21:51:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: there are certain operations that function templates often want to call generically on multiple types. there are two kinds of these: (A) ones for which there can't really be a generic implementation and have to be defined individually for each type, and (B) one for which there is a default implementation but you want to specialize them for
21:52:48 <wob_jonas> (A) include for example operator+(x,y) and operator<(x,y), but also some named functions like begin(x) and size(x) and abs(x)
21:54:28 <wob_jonas> In general, these are already handled easily in C++. You just define an overload for that function in an associated namespace, and then the rules of C++ will make everything work just fine.
21:54:48 <wob_jonas> For operators, the rules are slightly different, and you can sometimes define them as member functions, but the basic idea is the same.
21:55:59 <wob_jonas> The C++ stdlib defines operator+, operator<, size(x), abs(x) for several library types, and the latter two are also defined for some builtin types (arrays), the former two are essentially defined for some builtin types by the language (technically those are not true functions, but the difference hardly matters).
21:57:32 <wob_jonas> Category (B) is trickier. Named functions in these category include swap(x,y) and max(x,y). The library defines such generic templates for these that match most types, but you also want to specialize them for some types.
21:59:12 <wob_jonas> It appears that the proper way to call such a function is something like { using std::swap; swap(x,y); } or something like that, and that it's easy to call them wrong in which case you may get the generic implementation instead of the specialized one or get an error.
21:59:36 <wob_jonas> There's also a lot of confusion about how users should properly define specializations for these outside the stdlib.
22:00:31 <wob_jonas> What the stdlib could have done is to define two functions: one that users overload, and one that they call, and the one you call does the proper magic. That way there would be less confusion.
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22:02:38 <wob_jonas> (There operators under (B) like copy constructors and move constructors and copy assignment and move assignment and destructor and operator,(x,y). These don't have a generic stdlib impl, but the language often auto-generates them for your type, and in that case there's no problem because the language rules are done well.)
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22:32:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: imperial marmots | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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23:01:05 <HackEgo> 1/1:subtle//The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear. \ 2600//2600 Hz is a tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle. \ yeeeeesh//See yeeeesh. \ ssss//SSSS refers to the Stand Still, Stay Silent webcomic. \ structsubural type//Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction.
23:02:16 -!- __kerbal__ has joined.
23:09:52 <__kerbal__> I'm thinking about converting https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit to wikitext as mentioned at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Getchl
23:10:06 <__kerbal__> Do I have to obtain the permission of the creator?
23:11:10 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:11:21 <oerjan> helloily. i suspect yeeeeesh filled a much needed gap.
23:11:36 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh:See yeeeeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeeeesh:See yeeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeeesh:See yeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeesh:See yeeeeesh. \ yeeeesh:See yeeesh.
23:14:25 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; /bin/ls | grep -P '^ye+sh$'
23:14:27 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeesh \ yeeeesh \ yeeesh
23:14:56 <HackEgo> 11079:2017-07-10 <boil̈y> forget yeeeeesh \ 6200:2015-11-10 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeesh/See yeeeesh.
23:15:21 <HackEgo> 10346:2017-03-04 <shachäf> forget yeeeeeeeeesh \ 6228:2015-11-19 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeeeeeesh/See yeeeeeeeesh.
23:15:47 <oerjan> __kerbal__: hm you _might_ say the "will later be converted to wikitext" gives implicit permission...
23:15:59 <shachaf> what happened to the much needed gap
23:16:10 <oerjan> __kerbal__: however, hppavilion[1] is right here, so just ask.
23:16:27 <oerjan> well, he might be a little bit idle.
23:16:38 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1]
23:16:46 <oerjan> shachaf: it was filled again
23:20:58 <oerjan> shachaf: fortunately there's still a gap left.
23:21:18 <HackEgo> 1/2:wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf \ nit//Nits are there to be picked. \ kinder surprise//Kinder Surprise is an addictive drug marketed for children so dangerous it's banned at the federal level. \ lie bracket//Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies
23:21:29 <HackEgo> 2/2: that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them. \ tachyon//The tachyon is rude and has no style, but gets away with it because of its speed. Taneb will invent it if he ever catches up.
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23:40:11 <__kerbal__> hppavilion[1]: Do you have any documents about WalrusOS?
23:41:06 <boily> hellorcah. wissub?
23:45:53 <__kerbal__> Also, are the tape and the accumulator separate?
23:48:28 <hppavilion[1]> __kerbal__: I don't think I have documents about WalrusOS
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23:56:19 <__kerbal__> is the tape infinite in both directions or only one?
23:57:16 <\oren\> right now I'm hoping the dev server isn't literally on fire
00:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> __kerbal__: Both, I believe. It was a while ago that I wrote this. I can barely understand my own prose.
00:04:05 <__kerbal__> Um... how does that work, exactly? Is it a quantum thing?
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00:05:13 <oerjan> \oren\: but maybe if it _were_ on fire, you might finally get rid of the build system!
00:08:55 <\oren\> literally everything is broken
00:09:46 <\oren\> email, ssh, and even hipchat are all fucking dead
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00:14:05 <fizzie> Sounds like a Cloud At Cost server to me.
00:15:47 <\oren\> has california just been annihilated by nuclear attack?
00:15:53 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you keep bugging \oren\ about the build system
00:19:30 <oerjan> i was just trying to raise his hopes hth
00:20:11 <oerjan> also, i thought you were the one previously doing that.
00:20:22 <shachaf> looks like it's not necessary anymore tdh
00:20:49 <shachaf> i accidentally saw a photograph of \oren\ the other day
00:21:23 <oerjan> \oren\: i think not, unless shachaf is a ghost
00:21:55 <shachaf> I was trying to remember whether it was SoundHound that he worked at.
00:22:07 <shachaf> "I have experience using both the Waterfall methodology and Agile/XP methodologies."
00:22:59 <\oren\> yeah... i mean "waterfall" is just a stupid name for a normal long-cycle development process
00:23:16 <shachaf> isn't "waterfall" a straw man that people use to sell scrum
00:23:36 <shachaf> 16:00 <shachaf> I read some passwords from https://www.isi.edu/natural-language/people/poem/poem.php and now I can't stop thinking in iambic tetrameter.
00:23:51 <oerjan> the hydrological cycle methodology
00:23:54 <\oren\> next time I update linkedin I shoudl delete that line
00:24:15 <shachaf> Are you going to keep working at this company?
00:24:35 <shachaf> They can't even get my humming right.
00:25:05 <\oren\> assuming working conditions remain ok, and they keep paying me, why not?
00:25:33 <shachaf> Well, the servers are on fire, and you hate your build system.
00:25:48 <shachaf> Why not work at a company that pays you twice as much?
00:25:58 <oerjan> . o O ( someone should invent the scram methodology )
00:26:26 <\oren\> hey, they're back online!
00:26:35 <shachaf> oerjan: https://68.media.tumblr.com/74d95a31741535ce4661efb0c710d8ac/tumblr_inline_mhyiwy6aAE1qz4rgp.png
00:26:38 <\oren\> I wonder hwy everything broke suddenly
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00:27:21 <\oren\> shachaf: i've had offers but they all involved moving to the usa
00:27:39 <shachaf> Why don't you like the USA?
00:29:01 <shachaf> I feel like I did the iambic tetrameter thing in here before.
00:29:04 <shachaf> Or at least somewhere in IRC.
00:29:31 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i remember that from last you told me about those, i think. (but not what they were called.)
00:30:00 <shachaf> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/16.06.07
00:30:05 <shachaf> 22:39:20 <shachaf> oerjan: placenta-based homology? / i owe you an apology
00:30:50 <oerjan> shachaf: not the tetrameters, the scrams
00:30:57 <\oren\> the usa is a dangerous place, a lot of the places require owning (and learning to drive) a car, and I like my free healthcare
00:31:16 <shachaf> oerjan: They're called knids in English, apparently.
00:31:23 <shachaf> I didn't read the book in English, I don't think.
00:31:47 <shachaf> \oren\: Well, you can move somewhere that doesn't require a car.
00:32:27 <shachaf> How much are you willing to pay for free healthcare?
00:34:54 <shachaf> I thought you were saying you had offers to be paid twice as much to move to the USA.
00:35:56 <shachaf> oerjan: I think the iambic tetrameter I was thinking of may have been Kubla Khan.
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00:43:22 <wob_jonas> "yeah... i mean "waterfall" is just a stupid name for a normal long-cycle development process" => wait, I thought "waterfall" was management-speak for "we don't know what the program we want to create has to do, but just create 90% of it anyway without a spec, then near the end we'll tell what it should have done and you'll just change it to do tha
00:46:16 <wob_jonas> I admit I know little about all this methodology andpattern thing.
00:46:58 <wob_jonas> We have a software team with buzzword-oriented development though, you could ask them.
00:52:20 <wob_jonas> They're competent, mind you, but they have all these complicated procedures and meetings and task tracking docs.
00:56:46 <oerjan> restarting my browser when i have 3 youtube tabs open is somewhat noisy.
00:57:57 <shachaf> a man who seldom speaks his mind / can cause behavior undefined
00:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Getchl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52413&oldid=45294 * Kerbal * (+8849) Added the info from https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit?usp=sharing
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01:24:23 <__kerbal__> An idea... what if the only storage in a program was the title thing that displays above a program window in Windows? Or some other bizarre component normally used for something else?
01:32:58 <hppavilion[1]> __kerbal__: Huh, perhaps. But it sounds more like a hack than an inherently-weird feature
01:42:58 <__kerbal__> I still am thinking about building a framework for executing multiple tape-based languages on the same tape. That could be a useful, very esoteric way to leverage the benefits of multiple languages. You could download and share images between programs by combining Graphical BF and Netf***, and implement threading with Weave or a similar language.
01:43:26 <__kerbal__> I know that all the languages I mentioned are BF variants, but you could use others as well, like my esolang
01:48:37 <__kerbal__> You'd have a readable, simple language (I'm calling it TapeLang right now) holding everything together. Perhaps (although this may or may not actually happen) the language would treat other programs as first-class citizens
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03:01:06 <HackEgo> 1/2:lystrosaur//The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. \ jerk//Jerk is the integral of snap. \ mousse//A mousse is a sharp rodent. "A mousse once bit my sister." \ monqy//monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details,
03:01:09 <HackEgo> 2/2: if you find him. \ code//[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
03:01:55 <HackEgo> 5674:2015-06-24 <tsweẗt> echo \'[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...\' > wisdom/code \ 5658:
03:02:07 <HackEgo> 2/2:658:2015-06-23 <int-̈e> le/rn code/5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
03:02:32 <shachaf> int-e, Warrigal: what's all this then?
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05:36:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52414&oldid=41670 * Scoppini * (+2) Fix link
05:37:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52415&oldid=45218 * Scoppini * (+2) Fix link
05:42:25 <\oren\> Hmm, I think what I need is to write a preprocessor for kerboscript programs. I will write said preprocessor itself in kerboscript.
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07:58:53 <HackEgo> The password of the month is out of date tdnh
08:00:30 <int-e> shachaf: mine was contextual; <tswett> Randomly generated error message: <tswett> 13:37:54: <oerjan> `run echo $ 5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
08:01:08 <int-e> ... <tswett> 15:09:28: <HackEgo> data darn, preceding the complete path
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08:03:28 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is blowin' in the wind.
08:03:30 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is blowin' in the wind.
08:10:49 <HackEgo> 11081:2017-07-11 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is blowin\' in the wind. \ 10981:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10980:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10979:2017-06-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is out of date tdnh \ 10898:2017-05-14 <boil̈y> le/rn password//The password of the month is poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 10595:
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15:09:59 <doesthiswork> I'm looking for some good spam so I can pretend to be a bot on a webforum
15:10:22 <doesthiswork> does anyone know an abandoned forum that I can mine for material?
15:11:00 <oerjan> doesthiswork: https://esolangs.org/forum/ hth
15:11:34 <oerjan> the spam isn't very fresh though, since it's also readonly.
15:15:15 <int-e> we had a forum? wow...
15:16:19 <int-e> And wow, selling box sets of DVDs. How quaint. No Game of Thrones either.
15:17:25 <int-e> (what a difference 6 years can make)
15:40:01 <oerjan> --- part: lord_EarlGray left #esoteric <-- i guess we weren't his cup of tea.
15:43:52 <fizzie> There were even a few non-spam posts in the forum.
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16:38:11 <imode> word-addressible or byte-addressible?
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17:22:48 <HackEgo> 11081:2017-07-11 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is blowin\' in the wind. \ 10981:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10980:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10979:2017-06-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is out of date tdnh \ 10898:2017-05-14 <boil̈y> le/rn password//The password of the month is poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 10595:
17:25:03 <oerjan> i was surprised it had really been a month.
17:25:27 <HackEgo> grep: flies: No such file or directory \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ `4:`4 <cmd> is equivalent to `5 <cmd>, except that it only repeats 4 times. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `5. \ `5:`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd>
17:25:37 <oerjan> `` grwp -i 'time flies'
17:26:00 <HackEgo> Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
17:26:01 <int-e> . o O ( time flies are buzzing around the clock )
17:28:53 <oerjan> `learn_append arrow Time flies are attracted to them.
17:28:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'arrow': Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors. Time flies are attracted to them.
17:29:52 * oerjan got confused by the absence of "Relearned"
17:29:53 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
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17:56:13 <\oren\> hey. what if you have a machine that is byte-addressed but only reads whole words
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18:06:50 <int-e> . o O ( what if I have a machine that is byte-addressed but only reads whole cache lines, except for memory regions marked specially to indicate that they are used for memory mapped IO? )
18:09:02 <int-e> why on Earth would anyone send an email with Reply-To == To ?
18:09:55 <int-e> (It *was* an email that people might want to reply to. Maybe it's a way to fend off automatic replies like the notorious out of office emails.)
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18:16:47 <shachaf> Just send it to Steve Morshead
18:18:49 <int-e> but apparently they closed the account
18:19:05 <int-e> oh, are closing, I see
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18:31:59 <int-e> Actually the notice was sent in June. So it may be gone, unless the public shaming had any effect.
18:32:27 <shachaf> Why don't you email and ask?
18:32:44 <HackEgo> 1/1:brevity//syn. "shortness" \ macedonia//Macedonia is a country of which the United Nations denies the existence, just like Taiwan is. \ bird//The Bird is Cruel! \ pastry//A pastry is a sugary confectionery that is customarily eaten after writing an essay. \ bdsm//BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
18:33:13 <int-e> and I'm done talking to shachaf.
18:37:39 <HackEgo> shachäf Phantom_Hoovër nortẗi Phantom_Hoovër
18:37:51 <HackEgo> 10471:2017-03-21 <shachäf> learn The Bird is Cruel! \ 2180:2013-02-19 <Phantom_Hoovër> learn bird bird bird bird \ 2179:2013-02-19 <nortẗi> learn bird is a dinosaur \ 2178:2013-02-19 <Phantom_Hoovër> learn bird bird bird bird
18:38:02 <HackEgo> A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up.
18:38:04 <shachaf> bird! what's the matter with you?
18:38:18 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Permission denied
18:38:41 <shachaf> Remember when we figured out how to delete canary?
18:38:58 <int-e> I'm surprised this unreadable one doesn't do the same thing
18:39:03 <HackEgo> File: ‘canary’ \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 regular empty file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 657446 Links: 1 \ Access: (0000/----------) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2017-05-15 14:57:34.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2017-04-17 19:17:05.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2017-05-15 15:23:19.0000000
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18:41:03 <HackEgo> 1/2:despair//Despair is but the first step towards eternal damnation. \ cofridge logic//Cofridge logic is the new HoTT stuff. \ c++//Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people. \ victoria//Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest. \ identity function//The identity function
18:41:20 <HackEgo> boil̈y oerjän FireFl̈y FireFl̈y
18:43:22 <HackEgo> A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up.
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19:45:31 <int-e> . o O ( What's the current maximal size of Russell's teapot, say, at 99% confidence? )
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22:20:18 <int-e> fizzie: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/factory.jpg ... screenshot from a video game (Broken Sword 5, an okay click & point adventure game, better than parts 3 and 4 so far)
22:25:12 <fizzie> Heh. Well, it's iconic.
22:25:19 <fizzie> I played the one set in Paris.
22:25:32 <fizzie> ("Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars – Director's Cut", I think.)
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22:36:25 <int-e> "the one set in Paris" is kind of cute... I think they all have a part playing in Paris.
22:37:01 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't know that. Well, that one anyway.
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22:44:24 <int-e> (the main issue with parts 3 and 4 is the awkward 3D interface... part 5 is back to 2D graphics with painted scenes, and more traditional puzzles (parts 3 and 4 feature some scenes where you need to evade guards, and some sokoban style puzzles... at the same time skimping on the more traditional interactions)
22:45:01 <int-e> . o O ( `learn ) is the missing closing parenthesis, provided here for balance. )
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23:12:20 <HackEgo> 1/2:wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf \ hðh//hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times. \ sparkle//Sparkles are annoying visual artifacts that people try to use deliberately for decoration and artistic photogra
23:13:02 <HackEgo> 2/2:phs and drawings. \ html//HTML is short for "hope this mess loads". \ 21//21 is both half the answer and a cardgame. The latter is similiar to Bladder-Burst?.
23:13:35 <wob_jonas> I'm often confused when I read about food on the internet. I don't know enough about food in general, and also it comes with a lot of specialized vocabulary separately in English and Hungarian where I don't know translations nor meanings of lots of words in either language.
23:13:52 <wob_jonas> So I started to make some notes: first about the type of cereals at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Types_of_cereal
23:13:57 <wob_jonas> Next I should do the types of nuts/.
23:19:40 <boily> cooking is best done by ear; it has to sound right when doing it.
23:20:24 <boily> and imperial units all the way. none of that gram and decilitre shenanigans.
23:21:13 <wob_jonas> imperial is for fantasy stuff like dungeon corridor widths and minifig sizes
23:21:35 <wob_jonas> and weights of items in your inventory
23:22:13 <wob_jonas> you measure foodstuff in metric, which is convenient because most of them are typically packaged in round amounts of metric units (kilograms or liters)
23:22:51 <wob_jonas> (some actually must be packaged in round amounts by law, some are just packaged that way by custom)
23:23:32 <boily> tablespoons, cups, pounds and fahrenheit!
23:24:48 <wob_jonas> you could perhaps make an argument for teaspoons and tablespoons of spice or salt, yeah, the previous argument doesn't apply to them because you use only small amount at a time
23:25:33 <boily> cups are tremendously useful. quarter, third, half and one cup. it's the same measure for all your ingredients.
23:26:26 <boily> pounds are just... anthropocentric? eg. ¼ lb for a meat patty. it's a nice number, easy to remember.
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23:29:32 <wob_jonas> dunno, I don't think it helps more than kilograms
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23:36:31 <wob_jonas> and of course the decimal system helps me make mental calculations, as opposed to the strange conversion ratios like {mile, yard, food, inch, 1/16 inch, 1/1000 inch}, {pound, ounce, grains}, {gallon, pint, fl ounce}, and the confusing multiple similarly named units (there are like four kinds of ounces still commonly in use)
23:37:43 <wob_jonas> Obviously it used to be even worse in the past, when they had a different measurement system in every region, but you can't blame people for that back when travel was difficult and technology less advanced.
23:38:20 <shachaf> I think many units people use are backwards.
23:38:33 <shachaf> For example, speed should be measured in time/distance instead of distance/time
23:38:47 <shachaf> Bandwidth should be measured in time/bytes rather than bytes/time
23:40:08 <wob_jonas> It's not obvious which kind of "league" Jules Verne uses as measurement units in multiple of his books. Journey to the center of earth seems to use the 3898 meter long French league.
23:42:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf: bandwidth in information per time is reasonable imo because it's additive that way. the problem with bandwidth units is that people use too many units for information including bits, bytes, 512 byte blocks/sectors, kilobits, kilobytes, kibibits, kibibytes, megabits, megabytes, mebibytes, gigabits, gigabytes, gibibytes, terabytes.
23:43:01 <wob_jonas> And sometimes it's not clear whether someone means bits or bytes, and whether they mean decimal or binary.
23:43:22 <shachaf> If you pay X to get Y, you should be using the unit Y/X
23:43:45 <shachaf> You pay litres of petrol to get kilometres of distance, so you should use the unit litres/kilometre
23:44:19 <wob_jonas> It would make the abbreviations more clear if people started using octets instead of bytes even in English.
23:45:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: as for fuel usage, that varies by country, some countries like Hungary use liters per hundred kilometer, some use kilometers per ten liter or something like that (I'm not sure about the exponent of 10 there), some use miles per gallons.
23:45:44 <shachaf> Never mind the constant factor. I meant l/100km
23:45:48 <wob_jonas> For prices, I've never seen the price in the divisor used for anything.
23:46:07 <shachaf> I considered saying "octet" above, but I said "byte" so that I'm ambiguous about the constant factor.
23:47:10 <shachaf> No, you should use dollars per gallon.
23:47:17 <wob_jonas> sh: I'm fine with 8-bit only bytes, the problem is when on commercial labels "B" can stand for bits or bytes and you can't tell which. Some packagings even write "KG" for kilogram, which is terrible.
23:47:30 <fizzie> shachaf: Because you pay gallons to get dollars?
23:47:41 <shachaf> No, you pay dollars to get gallons.
23:48:01 <fizzie> That's exactly opposite to the rule you said.
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23:48:14 <fizzie> "If you pay X to get Y, you should be using the unit Y/X."
23:48:31 <shachaf> And I spent such a long time thinking about it, too. Uselessly.
23:48:33 <wob_jonas> how much is a gallon anyway? /me looks it up
23:48:44 <fizzie> UK and US gallons are different, I think?
23:48:56 <fizzie> (Which makes "mpg" even worse.)
23:49:11 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, it's one of those multiple versions of units tied to "ounces"
23:49:21 <shachaf> wob_jonas: The convenient thing is that l/gal and NIS/USD are pretty close.
23:49:34 <shachaf> So you can compare .il and .us petrol prices directly, depending on the exchange rate.
23:50:19 <fizzie> I was trying to read up on this when renting a car and trying to guesstimate how often I'd need to fill it up. People just post unqualified "mpg" numbers.
23:50:29 <shachaf> gal/mile means you pay gallons to get miles
23:50:39 <shachaf> So if you pay X to get Y, you should be using the unit X/Y
23:50:48 <shachaf> Which is waht I originally wanted to write.
23:51:13 <shachaf> Apparently I should say ILS instead of NIS
23:51:24 <shachaf> I never remember which one to use.
23:51:34 <shachaf> "also known as simply the Israeli shekel and formerly known as the New Israeli Sheqel (NIS),"
23:51:44 <shachaf> I guess it's not new anymore.
23:51:53 <shachaf> It's been in use since before I was born.
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23:53:46 <shachaf> You use $/gal because you pay $ to get gal
23:54:02 <shachaf> You use gal/mile because you pay gal to get mile
23:54:14 <shachaf> You can even multiply them together to figure out $/mile
23:54:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ILS is the ISO style international abbrev, similar to USD, CAD, GBP, EUR, HUF, etc. NIS is conventional domestic abbrev, similar to US$, CA$, £, €, Ft, which you use locally.
23:55:25 <wob_jonas> when commerce gets international and people ordering stuff on Ebay in various foreign currencies, it's better to use the former
23:56:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the trick is that the three-letter currency codes usually start with the two-letter ISO country code (except EUR), which in turn usually agrees with top-level domain names (except .uk)
23:57:01 <shachaf> Why do you say NIS is conventional domestic abbrev?
23:57:21 <wob_jonas> they should have used DEE for the euro
23:59:02 <shachaf> It was only in the past couple of years that I realized why the symbol ₪ is used for NIS.
23:59:45 <shachaf> It looks like the acronym ש"ח
00:00:10 <shachaf> In particular the ח put inside the ש
00:01:31 <wob_jonas> is that symbol printed on shekel banknotes?
00:02:50 <wob_jonas> I don't understand why there are custom symbols for so many currencies by the way. Why not use just some letter combo abbreviation like for other things?
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00:09:39 <wob_jonas> Though I guess a few other measurement units use custom symbols too: the degree symbol is used for various units called degrees, and the prime and double prime are used for various stuff, and I think there was one or two more obscure symbols too.
00:10:32 <boily> ℥ is a nice symbol.
00:10:47 <wob_jonas> boily: oh right, I forgot that one because I don't see it getting used
00:11:26 <\oren\> Hmm, I no longer consider it a coincidence. I am better at programming when I reduce my font size
00:11:54 <wob_jonas> also, some people write ℓ instead of l for a liter (and some write L)
00:12:22 <wob_jonas> \oren\: with your good font, right?
00:12:30 <shachaf> wob_jonas: When I measure speeds, should I use Hz?
00:12:36 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yeah and this high dpi mintor
00:13:04 <boily> handwritten ℓ is useful to distinguish the unit from 1, l and other hambiguitous things.
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00:13:29 <boily> 2 mega Bel per second?
00:14:00 <\oren\> I was struggling to translate this perl script into C++. I reduced font size to get more of the code on my screen and suddenly I fixed all the segafults in half an hour and it now works.
00:14:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: for speeds, use m/s, except when it's speed limit for motor vehicles, in which case use whichever one of km/h or mi/h is generally used for labels of the speedometer of the car
00:14:24 <shachaf> Measure acceleration in mHz/s
00:14:54 <wob_jonas> I don't like too small fonts, but that's partly because I'm myopic and don't have a perfect vision
00:15:50 <wob_jonas> well, I do have a perfect vision with glasses by the technical definition, as proven repeatedly in the optometrist examinations, but a worse vision still than some other programmers
00:16:30 <\oren\> I have bad vision at distances but up close I can handle very small font sizes
00:17:16 <wob_jonas> The other part I don't get is how some people can work with the sun glaring directly into the monitor, or with the sun shining in brightly through a window from right ahead of you from the same direction as the monitor, or in a very dark room with a bright monitor.
00:17:22 <wob_jonas> But I've seen people do each of those.
00:17:46 <\oren\> I much prefer a bright, bright monitor and no light apart from it
00:17:57 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, since I'm myopic, I also have a worse vision in a distance (unless I wear contacts, which I don't do these days)
00:18:17 <boily> 20/20 vision, 20/10 with rice.
00:18:32 <wob_jonas> I prefer a rather dark monitor. I somewhat vary the darkness depending on whether it's the day or night, but it's dark in either case.
00:21:23 <wob_jonas> Ideally the daylight should come from the side and the window somewhat shaded so the light is scattered rather than glaring from one direction, but this is often not practical.
00:21:57 <wob_jonas> And of course neither the lighting nor the monitor should flicker, because that's really annoying.
00:22:07 <shachaf> \oren\: Did you fix your build system yet?
00:23:13 <wob_jonas> The monitor part has gotten easier these days: instead of old small CRTs, we got better CRTs then later TFT monitors; the lighting gets worse though, with all the fancy fluorescent lighting and leds instead of proper conventional and halogen bulbs.
00:24:17 <\oren\> shachaf: no, but luckily the build system wasn't involved here
00:24:45 <\oren\> it's just a perl script, and i translated it into a C++ program with just the standard liberry
00:24:51 <wob_jonas> Also bigger TFT monitors, which is nice.
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00:28:41 <shachaf> \oren\: Hopefully your build system is involved with both Perl and C++ code?
00:30:22 <\oren\> no, this tool doesn't get used in the build system, neither does the build use it
00:30:49 <\oren\> it's totally separate, and is instead part of a system that will get built with bjam
00:30:51 <shachaf> OK, but you still build it.
00:31:13 <\oren\> yeah I build it by saying g++ main.cpp
00:31:52 <\oren\> bjam will probably just do that
00:32:50 <\oren\> it's better than our inhouse thing
00:33:07 <shachaf> why don't you invent a new system which is good instead of bad
00:33:33 <\oren\> lol who has time to do that
00:33:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think making a good build system is a REALLY hard problem
00:33:59 <wob_jonas> like, harder than making good versions of other programming support tools
00:35:08 <shachaf> Right, but \oren\ is "an excellent software developer", so he's well-suited for the task.
00:36:44 <\oren\> rather than mocking me for putting that, you hould go and put "an amazing software developer" on your linked in
00:37:37 <shachaf> It's gentle prodding at best.
00:38:02 <shachaf> Maybe I should delete my LinkedIn account instead
00:38:05 <\oren\> so people know haw awesome you are
00:38:26 <shachaf> What should I do with my life?
00:38:31 <\oren\> and great at writing progams
00:40:59 <shachaf> I mean... I've shavented some pretty good HackEgo programs.
00:42:57 <shachaf> I guess I've shavented some other good software.
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00:45:37 <shachaf> When are you moving to America?
00:46:21 <shachaf> I looked at healthcare costs for me. It looks like, with the ACA, I can put an upper bound at, say, $10k/year
00:46:33 <shachaf> Including insurance premia and other costs.
00:46:45 <Warrigal_> I figure the arithmetic soundness of ZFC is about on par with Goldbach's conjecture, as far as certainty goes.
00:50:40 <lambdabot> ENVA 112320Z 32004KT 9999 FEW017 BKN053 12/10 Q1003 RMK WIND 670FT 33006KT
00:50:53 <lambdabot> KOAK 112253Z 29012KT 10SM CLR 22/12 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T02220117 $
00:52:07 <oerjan> which part says that it's pouring down
00:52:50 <lambdabot> KSJC 112253Z 31012KT 10SM CLR 28/13 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP116 T02830133
00:52:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 112300Z 22012KT 15SM FEW035 BKN130 BKN240 24/18 A2984 RMK CU1AC5CI2 CU TR SLP108 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
00:52:58 <lambdabot> EGLL 112320Z VRB03KT 8000 -RA BKN004 15/15 Q1005 TEMPO RA
00:53:11 <fizzie> -RA TEMPO RA, I guess that's pretty close.
00:53:14 <boily> fizziello. 15/15. bletch.
00:53:35 <fizzie> I'm very happy about it, it's been like >27 inside for a week now.
00:53:43 <fizzie> Now it's at least down to 25.
00:54:33 <fizzie> In other news, I'm getting ticked off by this: http://sprunge.us/MNiZ
00:55:19 <fizzie> The fact that there's so many of them.
00:55:24 <fizzie> Chromium downloads a new copy every time I start it.
00:55:32 <shachaf> https://www.nikhef.nl/~jo/quantum/qm/thermo/ just has one of them.
00:55:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i meant here in ENVAland hth
00:55:44 <fizzie> I've tried to quit by closing each tab one by one, but it didn't help.
00:55:46 <shachaf> fizzie: You should set it to ask before saving.
00:56:06 <fizzie> I guess I should try disabling the saving thing.
00:57:09 <oerjan> `# boily: //`? shaventions
00:57:10 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
00:58:41 <oerjan> then we'd have to ban `fetch too
00:58:49 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:59:36 <HackEgo> 10525:2017-03-27 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s/, pr/, cognac, pr/
01:00:47 <oerjan> `learn Cognac is named for its strong cognitive effects. Taneb invented it, then somehow managed to keep it off the illegal drugs list.
01:00:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'cognac': Cognac is named for its strong cognitive effects. Taneb invented it, then somehow managed to keep it off the illegal drugs list.
01:01:20 <shachaf> Does Taneb invent things involving drugs and crime?
01:02:07 <oerjan> well he invented mushrooms...
01:03:03 <HackEgo> This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
01:03:21 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
01:03:41 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
01:03:46 <shachaf> Taneb: please invent some more maths twh
01:03:54 <HackEgo> Algebraic geometry is so complicated that Taneb had to take an exam in it before he could invent it.
01:04:09 <HackEgo> If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it.
01:04:46 <shachaf> `learn Invention is the daughter of necessity.
01:04:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'invention': Invention is the daughter of necessity.
01:05:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gowd: not found
01:06:02 <HackEgo> 10533:2017-03-27 <shachäf> forget god \ 10532:2017-03-27 <oerjän> slwd god//s,$,., \ 7437:2016-04-17 <b_jonäs> learn GOD is GOD over djinn
01:07:31 <shachaf> You can undo 10533 if you want to.
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11:43:28 * boily sneakily mapolese hppavilion[1]
11:54:45 <int-e> but did you see who did it?
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15:51:07 <izabera> just read this AlongPSEUDOrandomSENTENCEisAmoreSECUREkeyTHANrandomSHORTascii
15:51:35 <izabera> someone was trying to explain the need for better passwords
15:51:56 <izabera> what's the actual entropy of that?
15:52:55 <izabera> english words in a sentence that makes sense, with an easy to remember pattern to capitalize some letters
15:55:00 <FireFly> probably better than a short password given the number of words, even if they're correlated
15:55:33 <fizzie> I seem to recall Shannon's classic number is something like 11 bits/word.
16:04:22 <izabera> that google thing is scary good at predicting words
16:09:58 <Cale> izabera: somewhat relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/936/
16:10:50 <Cale> Of course, the entropy of subsequent words in a grammatically correct or semantically meaningful sentence is significantly lower
16:11:40 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/cnbe0KQ.png
16:17:05 <Cale> izabera: of course, those particular 4 words are famous now
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19:24:36 <HackEgo> A method is a tweaked out mothod.
19:27:00 <HackEgo> A mother is a person who practices mothology.
19:27:10 <HackEgo> Mothology is the study of moths, myths and mirths.
19:27:14 <HackEgo> Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
19:27:45 <shachaf> why is this channel obsessed with moths twh
19:30:31 <shachaf> A mammoth is a moth which is also a mother.
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19:38:31 <shachaf> FireFly: you're a sort of moth, aren't you
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20:02:37 <FireFly> I leave the moth-ing to lynn
20:06:49 <shachaf> Watch out for oerjan's swatter.
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20:08:38 <FireFly> Good tip, I've had bad experiences with that swatter
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21:08:28 <shachaf> oerjan asks himself the same question every day.
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22:57:27 <Cale> olsner: that one.
22:58:05 <shachaf> how come you don't have a wisdom entry tdnh
22:59:00 <Cale> What do I do if my wisdom is continually being consumed by the void? hm
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23:01:31 <Cale> `? Do you like this?
23:01:32 <HackEgo> Do you like this?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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01:20:29 <wob_jonas> `? zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
01:20:30 <HackEgo> A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
01:20:51 <wob_jonas> `dowg zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
01:20:59 <HackEgo> 5308:2015-04-11 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/zygohistomorphic{," prepromorphism"}
01:21:01 <wob_jonas> `howg zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
01:21:07 <HackEgo> <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/zygohistomorphic{," prepromorphism"}
01:21:42 <HackEgo> <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/zygohistomorphic{," prepromorphism"} \ <oerjän> learn A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
01:37:12 <shachaf> Why would you howg instead of dowg?
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02:36:34 <doesthiswork> I just learnt there is a irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/#proglangdesign channel
03:11:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Julfers * New user account
03:25:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52416&oldid=52402 * Julfers * (+148)
03:26:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Julfers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52417 * Julfers * (+31) Created page with "Josiah (Joe) Ulfers, programmer"
04:13:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DatBoi11841 * New user account
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08:53:17 <mroman> does visual basic have context-sensitive grammar?
08:53:31 <mroman> as foo(bar) could either be a function call or an array access depending on what type foo is
08:54:23 <FireFly> Isn't the grammar for those the same though, just different semantics
08:55:15 <FireFly> Like I'd expect in both cases foo and bar are expressions, as is the result foo(bar)
08:55:38 <FireFly> so as far as parsing is concerned, it's one thing
08:57:39 <mroman> but foo(bar, baz) would be illegal if foo is an array type
08:58:05 <mroman> parsing might be the same though
08:58:14 <mroman> but it's a semantic error
09:03:09 <mroman> parsing rules are probably the same for both.
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09:25:00 <mroman> fungot you lil raskell
09:25:01 <fungot> mroman: v. capacity calculated according to length :) skull, proportions :), in india, as i learn from admiral sir james sulivan) to be low, and would, i suspect that/ following circumstances. a minute crustaceous animal " cancer salinus) is said to be; and about mimosa sensitiva./ fnord is lost. very soon afterwards it decays. in/ preservation :) profitable modifications, each better and better, for educational purposes, than
09:30:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:33:24 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
09:33:36 <mroman> fungot: Any opinions on G20?
09:33:37 <fungot> mroman: mr president, a few days ago. mr davies has already said on a number of positive and negative. negative, firstly, countries should honour their pledges, namely make 0.7% of their gross national income.
09:33:58 <mroman> fungot: And how does this relate to the violence?
09:33:59 <fungot> mroman: mr president, before i give my explanation of vote against related to the system. then there was a great scandal in italy because a leak from the ministry for the fnord. finally, mr president, i received a specific question to the council and the president of finland, and i quote: ' whereby progressively only less favoured regions, one-fourth of community sheep production is undertaken in other areas loses its meaning.
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09:35:50 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
09:36:02 <mroman> fungot: Who invented the telephone?
09:36:02 <fungot> mroman: you know what a good network you know
09:36:11 <mroman> fungot: I like good networks.
09:39:05 <mroman> fungot: WHY DO YOU NEVER SEND ME ANY TEXTS??
09:39:18 <mroman> I SWIPED RIGHT ON YOU YOU KNOW.
11:20:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52418&oldid=32456 * Zseri * (+12) /* Interpreter */ dead link
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14:50:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trajedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52419&oldid=51774 * Jafetish * (+280)
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15:26:56 <oerjan> i think it's been a while since the last one.
15:27:12 <oerjan> (in finnish, that is.)
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15:54:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan asks himself the same question every day. <-- . o O ( shachaf knows too much... )
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16:46:40 <int-e> what am I doing here?
16:51:59 <shachaf> oerjan: do you know what action one takes in order to know too much hth
16:54:55 <oerjan> one asks too many questions.
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17:12:15 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, that's what i was getting at
17:12:20 <shachaf> Maybe what you were getting at too.
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18:01:41 <fizzie> @tell oerjan At least it wasn't mämmi.
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19:25:39 <fizzie> (I wonder if oerjan's Finnish spam was related to Spotify, because I just got a rare Finnish s[pc]am as well, and it was.)
19:25:55 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/eCiFO7qV54E
20:05:48 <HackEgo> olist 1082: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:24:41 <Vorpal> fizzie: I only ever get spam about rayban sunglasses for incredibly low prices.
20:25:03 <Vorpal> Or at least that is the only thing getting through to the gmail spam folder even
20:27:37 <Vorpal> And I have not gotten any spam to my own email server. So I haven't even set up spam filtering there yet. Just some basic SPF verification thing
20:29:11 <Vorpal> fizzie: I believe you run your own mail server, for the future and the inevitable day I get spam, what do you recommend for anti-spam?
20:30:40 <shachaf> I used to be involved in running mail servers.
20:31:07 <Vorpal> shachaf: okay, any suggestions for that future?
20:31:17 <Vorpal> I only know that SpamAssassin is a thing
20:31:36 <shachaf> We were using custom software.
20:32:22 <Vorpal> Last SpamAssassin release was over 2 years ago hm
20:50:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: For spam, I use a postfwd configuration that checks two DNS blacklists (zen.spamhaus.org, bl.spamcop.net). It's very rudimentary, but has been enough so far.
20:51:09 <fizzie> There's a fair number of spam that goes through, but it's not been unmanageable.
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20:52:53 <fizzie> I thought about doing greylisting, for whatever reason I hear that still is pretty effective.
20:54:41 <Vorpal> fizzie: how does that work?
20:55:24 <fizzie> The tl;dr is that for any unknown sending mail server, your mail server returns a "temporarily unavailable, please retry" error code.
20:55:45 <fizzie> Apparently most of the botnets that spew out spam still don't do retries, while almost all real mail servers do.
20:56:20 <fizzie> It does add a little delay (from some minutes to hours, depending on sending mx behavior) to first new email from an unknown system.
20:56:47 <fizzie> Probably makes more sense for a system that receives an appreciable volume of email.
20:57:05 <fizzie> My forwarding service (iki.fi) does that.
20:58:34 <fizzie> And the school where my father teaches does otherwise, because they greylist the periodic newsletters I send to family members.
20:59:43 <fizzie> So it's also kind of inherently biased against anyone using a "non-standard" email solution, since those will likely be classified as unknown. (The greylisting implementations expire the "known" status after some days/weeks.)
21:00:41 <fizzie> Yeah, it's happened to the most recent one I sent again.
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21:01:48 <fizzie> "status=deferred (host [REDACTED] said: 451 4.7.1 <[REDACTED]>: Recipient address rejected: Greylisting in effect, please come back later (in reply to RCPT TO command))"
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21:13:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52420&oldid=52293 * Manushand * (-4) /* Factorial */
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21:27:23 <Vorpal> fizzie: looking at the logs I do get some connects from such hosts, but it seems they just disconnect without doing anything. Manually resolved a couple
21:29:11 <Vorpal> fizzie: might be the SPF checking does it as well
21:29:59 <fizzie> There's a lot more connects in my Postfix logs than actual clients, I've never really bothered to investigate why they disconnect.
21:30:40 <fizzie> Some of them might be bruteforcing passwords, there's one case here with about 2k connect attempts over two hours or so.
21:31:33 <Vorpal> hm maybe set up fail2ban on that?
21:31:48 <Vorpal> Kind of tricky to find the right criteria for that I guess
21:32:07 <Vorpal> I don't see anything about failed passwords in the postfix log at least
21:32:51 <fizzie> Guess they might be doing something else too. Like trying to spam without any "stop if failing" thing.
21:33:03 <Vorpal> I use SASL, how does that work exactly?
21:33:13 <Vorpal> smtpd_sasl_type = dovecot
21:33:13 <Vorpal> smtpd_sasl_path = private/auth
21:33:32 <Vorpal> Do postfix forward to it? Or do you login to dovecot first and that makes it work?
21:34:10 <fizzie> Postfix connects to that Dovecot socket to authenticate based on what comes in the SMTP connection, I believe.
21:34:14 <fizzie> (I have the same setup.)
21:35:44 <Vorpal> was a while since I set it up, kind of confused now. What is an LMTP service and why do I use it?
21:36:26 <fizzie> LMTP is like SMTP except for local delivery, I think it's the recommended way to setup mail delivery into Dovecot.
21:36:59 <Vorpal> Probably why I use it then
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21:37:10 <fizzie> IIRC, the protocol's pretty much identical to SMTP, except maybe some minor variations and the fact that it normally runs over a Unix domain socket.
21:37:54 <Vorpal> fizzie: hm that forwarding service you use, how does that work when forwarding mails from servers with SPF set up to a server that checks SPF?
21:42:10 <fizzie> They're opposed to SPF on ideological and practical grounds. And of course you can self decide where you forward to, and pick a friendly enough destination. I don't remember if they did anything else specifically.
21:42:51 <Vorpal> fizzie: they? I got the impression you ran it.
21:43:07 <fizzie> No no, it's an organization.
21:43:20 <fizzie> "The Internet Users Forever IKI is a non-profit society which provides its members, private individuals in Finland, permanent iki.fi-addresses with e-mail and WWW forwarding."
21:43:51 <Vorpal> okay, but you are involved in running it somehow or not?
21:44:19 <fizzie> I've been to their meetings back when I still lived in Finland (free cake), so I guess in a super-technical sense yes. But not in any practical way.
21:45:01 <Vorpal> <fizzie> My forwarding service (iki.fi) does that. <-- I misinterpreted the "my" there
21:45:16 <fizzie> Yeah, it was a little ambiguous. "My" as in "the one I use".
21:46:12 <fizzie> I don't think that many places are yet using SPF as a hard blocklist even with a -all policy on the source, it's just an extra signal to their filtering systems. I remember the IKI people's discussion places having some chatter about that and Gmail, but there's definitely people forwarding their iki.fi addresses to Gmail with success.
21:46:56 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary prime minister of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
21:47:20 <shachaf> i'm voting fizzie for king in the next election
21:47:50 <fizzie> I guess unnamed former Gmail SREs might have better ideas about how it relates to SPF, but that's SO CONFIDENTIAL.
21:48:54 <fizzie> I did set up DKIM on my private mail server, in the hopes of it maybe giving a tiny positive nudge in spam scores of outgoing emails.
21:48:56 <shachaf> For what it's worth Delivery is a somewhat separate group from the rest of Gmail.
21:50:17 <fizzie> (One of my wife's relatives uses Hotmail/Outlook, and some of our messages went to their spam folder.)
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22:58:21 <shachaf> Yes, but this olist was already announced.
22:58:57 <wob_jonas> that's why I didn't `olist it again
22:59:06 <wob_jonas> I'm just surprised because it's fast now
23:01:58 <shachaf> Well, he published his PDF thing.
23:02:03 <shachaf> So it's back to full-time olisting.
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23:37:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> Maybe what you were getting at too. <-- THAUSIBLE
23:37:57 <lambdabot> fizzie said 5h 36m 15s ago: At least it wasn't mämmi.
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00:12:40 <oerjan> <fizzie> (I wonder if oerjan's Finnish spam was related to Spotify, [...] <-- sorry, didn't pay that much attention before deleting.
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00:15:56 <\oren\> is there a name for that trick where traverse a linked list and keep track of where you are by each time you move to a child you make it point back to its parent so you can go back
00:16:36 <\oren\> if there is a name for that trick I shoudl use it for this commit messge
00:18:50 <\oren\> "made this not stack over flow by using a zipper technique instead of just recursing"
00:22:18 <oerjan> \oren\: i think the "Sort of" is pretty big there.
00:22:43 <\oren\> bah noone reads my code anyway
00:22:55 <shachaf> \oren\: What does the program do?
00:23:11 <oerjan> istr this being used for gc way before zippers were invented.
00:23:19 <shachaf> This isn't really zipper anyway.
00:23:41 <shachaf> just use an xor doubly linked list hth
00:23:42 <\oren\> reads some crap in, parses it into a tree but the tree is too big to traverse
00:24:06 <\oren\> so we need to use this stupid zippery technique to avoid stack overflows
00:24:18 <\oren\> and then outputs some other crap
00:24:47 <shachaf> imo post a simplified version twh
00:25:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I've heard of that trick, and I don't know how generally it can be done. I wonder if it could be used for a garbage collector following conses with arbitrary cyclical links, possibly combined with an xor trick.
00:26:47 <oerjan> wob_jonas: that garbage collector use is where i've seen it.
00:27:45 <wob_jonas> you probably have to look in Knuth chapters 2 and 6 to see if it has a name
00:27:58 <shachaf> I went to talk by Knuth once that talked about something similar to a zipper.
00:28:15 <shachaf> I liked the way he had of drawing/thinking about it.
00:28:55 <wob_jonas> I'm a big fan of Knuth's books. They're so awesome.
00:29:23 <shachaf> It was this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW3vgJYYIok
00:30:44 <\oren\> https://pastebin.com/sJEGNtjQ
00:32:33 <\oren\> now imagine that do_leaf is also doing the same thing
00:35:10 <\oren\> it doesn't eliminate recursions, it just reduces the amount of recursion to manageable level
00:37:01 <\oren\> anyway, I'm certain I've seen this technique before but I don't know what it is called
00:39:49 <quintopia> helloren, helloerjan, wellob_jellonas, sholacholaf
00:43:13 <\oren\> oh now i rmember! this is basically like a tree rotation!
00:44:39 <\oren\> it's like a tree rotation but the tree isn't sorted by anything and we're just doing it as a stupid trick
00:48:18 <\oren\> of course normally you could jsut use tail recursion in this case, but unfortunately we want things outputted in the right order
00:51:54 <\oren\> that is to say, the same order as if it had been a recursive function where do_tree(node) { if(tag is 1) do_leaf(c0); else {do_tree(c0); do_leaf(c1);} }
00:54:32 <\oren\> which is to say, the behaviour caused by the way the original perl code was written is now the spec for the new c++ code
00:55:36 <\oren\> we want exactly the same output but faster and using less memiore
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01:12:05 <quintopia> what have i missed the last two weeks?
01:20:26 <oerjan> quintopia: well the wiki/HackEgo server was gone for a couple days
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01:42:48 <fizzie> It felt like a long time, but actually it was just about 2 days, 4 hours.
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04:03:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Comefrom0x10]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52421 * Julfers * (+6415) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Comefrom0x10 |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Julfers]] |year=[[:Category:2016|2016]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majori..."
04:05:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Julfers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52422&oldid=52417 * Julfers * (+29)
04:06:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52423&oldid=52408 * Julfers * (+19)
04:10:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Comefrom0x10]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52424&oldid=52421 * Julfers * (+0)
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04:20:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Comefrom0x10]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52425 * Julfers * (+580) Created page with "==Turing completeness== I listed this as Turing complete because it probably is and I wrote a [https://comefrom0x10.readthedocs.io/en/latest/examples.html#brainfuck-interpret..."
04:20:22 <HackEgo> 1/2:welcome.fi//Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.) \ manglophobia//Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms. \ pluto//Pluto i
04:20:23 <HackEgo> 2/2:s an ex-planet that moonlights as a dog in Disney cartoons. \ jerk//Jerk is the integral of snap. \ amnesium//An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned after each test.
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06:06:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52426&oldid=50177 * Xavo * (-1563) Blanked the page
06:09:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ChromaticiT * New user account
06:13:56 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: whoa whoa whoa, you're doing Rust?
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11:44:15 <HackEgo> lion//Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens.
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16:15:16 <Vorpal> Hm Debian stretch was released last month. Time to upgrade maybe. Or should I wait half a year for it to stabilise.
16:20:06 <int-e> is that a joke, hmm.
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16:25:52 <int-e> let's break a few VMs...
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16:32:49 <Vorpal> int-e: not really. I have a server for one. Do not want it to break :P Though it isn't ubuntu. Ubuntu tends to be far buggier on upgrade between LTSes
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16:33:43 <Vorpal> but yes probably going to dump the server VM, do a offline dry run upgrade, make sure it works and then either do the real upgrade or sync it back
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16:43:05 <int-e> well that seems to have worked just fine.
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16:50:02 <int-e> Vorpal: the thing is, Debian is ultra-stable to the point where I'm running the "unstable" distribution on my home computer. (I do keep to the stable release for VMs)
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16:52:03 <int-e> Vorpal: anyway I can now report two successful in situ upgrades to stretch... booted without a hitch and all services that I remember are still running.
16:52:25 <Vorpal> int-e: what about a complicated setup with LVM2 and cryptsetup-luks though ;P
16:52:37 <Vorpal> that is not for my VM, but for my desktop
16:54:28 <int-e> That might be more fun, but if it's luks then I wouldn't expect problems. Might be a good idea to keep something like Knoppix around though (which I expect has enough software on board to allow accessing the data)
16:55:16 <Vorpal> int-e: I use http://www.system-rescue-cd.org/ for that type of purpose
16:55:32 <Vorpal> found it to be really good
16:56:12 <Vorpal> website looks really dated though
16:56:26 <int-e> Knoppix has a browser to pass the time while the tools are working ;)
16:57:06 <Vorpal> int-e: I believe there is a basic browser on that CD too, it has LXDE at least
16:57:11 <Vorpal> maybe dillo or something like that?
16:58:13 <Vorpal> int-e: the question then is, does knoppix have all the specialized tools that system rescue CD does as well?
16:58:42 <Vorpal> actually it appears there is full on firefox on there
17:00:02 <Vorpal> bbl going to make food. Just need to go out and pick some fresh herbs first.
17:01:11 <int-e> well, I have not yet missed anything. http://www.wp-schulz.de/images/download/knoppix_77/kn-vsn.lst
17:01:27 <int-e> (but mostly I just needed gparted and debootstrap)
17:03:36 <int-e> Vorpal: Basically when you make a 7.7GB image you have room for a lot of stuff ;)
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17:28:19 <Vorpal> int-e: does it have the complete TeXLive?
17:29:02 <Vorpal> int-e: what about qgis?
17:29:15 <int-e> well, no, not complete... but a good chunk of texlive is in there.
17:30:13 <int-e> I bet it also doesn't include the whole small groups database of gap
17:31:24 <int-e> texlive-fonts-extra isn't in there, so it won't be enough to build the wisdom.pdf
17:31:42 <fizzie> I've upgraded three systems from jessie to stretch now without issues.
17:32:46 <fizzie> I think the only change that was sort of relevant from an administrationary point of view is the new network interface naming they've switched to.
17:33:38 <fizzie> (It's sort of opt-in if you're upgrading, but on by default on new installs.)
17:34:01 <fizzie> (Oh, and the possibility to maybe switch from iptables to nftables if you want.)
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17:53:23 <int-e> . o O ( so how do I get the apt-listchanges output again... )
18:04:24 <fizzie> I don't know, I'm just happy I always get those emailed.
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18:18:05 <int-e> yeah apparently I never made that part work
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18:25:18 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (Oh, and the possibility to maybe switch from iptables to nftables if you want.) <-- huh?
18:25:23 <Vorpal> what do I stand to gain from that
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18:25:30 <Vorpal> it is the same backend isn't it?
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18:26:27 <Vorpal> Anyway both debian boxes uses ufw. Though the server has some custom rules on top (for a HTTPS/SSH multiplexer, since port 443 may be accessible through some proxies where you can't reach port 22)
18:27:07 <Vorpal> my Raspbian (where stretch has not yet been released anyway) has completely custom iptables rules because of various VPN and IPv6 tunnel routing mess
18:28:28 <ais523> I use ufw as my iptables frontend :-P
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18:31:58 <Vorpal> ais523: I do that for most systems. Just in two cases I do way more complicated stuff than it can handle
18:32:23 <ais523> now I'm interested in why you'd need a firewall that complex
18:32:34 <Vorpal> in one case I managed to deal with that in the /etc/ufw custom rules files. In the other it was too messy
18:32:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if fail2ban can be set up to block spam email
18:33:26 <Vorpal> ais523: I set it up to block on failed logins for dovecot at least
18:33:43 <ais523> that's a bit of a different scenario though
18:34:02 <ais523> because there are plenty of legitimate reasons for people other than me to send me email
18:34:08 <ais523> but no real legitimate reasons for people other than me to download my email
18:34:14 <Vorpal> ais523: ufw doesn't allow you to set up prerouting entries for one
18:34:50 <Vorpal> ais523: well postfix submission port can be blocked based on failed dovecot SASL logins too
18:35:03 <Vorpal> I believe I set that up, don't quite remember
18:35:24 <ais523> how often does someone try to hack into your email, and when it can't, try to send email pretending to be from you?
18:35:50 <ais523> I mean, I can't see any reason not to block that
18:35:55 <Vorpal> ais523: I get quite a few connect try AUTH disconnect password guessing bots in the logs at least
18:35:58 <ais523> but I also wouldn't expect it to haev a lot of effect
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18:36:08 <ais523> I get AUTH guessing bots a lot too
18:36:21 <Vorpal> usually low rate though
18:36:44 <ais523> but I don't expect them to move onto the submission port when they fail
18:36:51 <Vorpal> brb, think the stuff in the oven is ready maybe
18:37:04 <ais523> I don't expect them to have guessed the dovecot password first
18:37:43 <Vorpal> nope meringue was still not crisp
18:38:38 <Vorpal> ais523: as for why I don't use ufw on my pi, I set it up so I route all traffic for a specific UID through a VPN, but route other traffic normally. That was invasive enough to make me ditch ufw
18:38:42 <ais523> huh, someone's trying to bruteforce username/password pairs on NH4's play-a-game login interface
18:38:49 <ais523> presumably thinking it's a regular telnet interface
18:39:04 <ais523> they'll be pretty disappointed if they do manage to get into the account of the player called "root" :-P
18:39:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re nftables, possibly not much, especially for simple scenarios. nftables has better support for (static or dynamic) sets/maps, which can give you less-than-O(n) lookups for many things where the iptables approach would be "list of rules". And the syntax is more concise.
18:39:20 <Vorpal> also setting up connection tracking helpers need some entries in the raw output table
18:39:36 <Vorpal> thought that existed already
18:39:41 <ais523> this has been going for ages, too
18:39:52 <Vorpal> ais523: fail2ban on it then
18:40:05 <ais523> I can't easily, nothing seems to be recording the IP
18:40:21 <ais523> this is rare enough (because it wouldn't actually work if it succeeded…) that I'd just ban the IP manually if I knew what it was
18:41:09 <Vorpal> fizzie: I guess that would be nice for the Pi. I have a long list of ports to accept on for it
18:41:24 <Vorpal> ais523: how do you even know it is happening then?
18:41:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's some support for sets on the iptables side, nft's just a lot more extensive. You can use them in a lot of contexts, and also do key-value maps, including for things like mapping to an action.
18:41:31 <Vorpal> also I get quite regular scans on port 23
18:41:37 <ais523> Vorpal: nethack4 server is logging the attempts
18:41:52 <Vorpal> ais523: but not the ip?
18:41:54 <ais523> but it sees the connections as coming from localhost, because people telnet in and it creates a client for them
18:42:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, and nft lets you do a single ruleset for IPv4/IPv6 jointly, which is an improvement in convenience over plain iptables. Probably again not relevant if you're already using a frontend like ufw.
18:42:11 <ais523> like, if you connect to NH4 by telnet, you get a client process with which to do your server interaction
18:42:25 <Vorpal> fizzie: well, I have different rules for ipv4 and ipv6 on the pi
18:43:08 <fizzie> So do I, but they're *mostly* similar.
18:43:16 <Vorpal> fizzie: is the feature set a full on super-set of iptables? Last I looked (a year ago maybe) it wasn't yet
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18:43:32 <fizzie> There's a few missing pieces, but it's not far.
18:43:41 <int-e> wow, disabling sha1 based DH key exchanges in sshd actually cuts down on the authentication attempts... funny
18:43:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: very different for me, since the pi act as a SixXS tunnel endpoint and share it to the network
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18:43:56 <imode> the answer to this question is probably yes, but have there been any esolangs that don't have numbers of any kind built in?
18:43:59 <fizzie> You don't *have* to do a joint table.
18:44:31 <fizzie> There's also some more theoretical benefits, like you might be able to get new features just by updating the userland tooling without needing a kernel extension, since the whole infrastructure is more BPF-style virtual machiney thing.
18:44:59 <Vorpal> % ip6tables-translate -A FORWARD -i eth0 -o eth3 -p udp -m multiport --dports 111,222 -j ACCEPT
18:44:59 <Vorpal> nft add rule ip6 filter FORWARD iifname eth0 oifname eth3 meta l4proto udp udp dport { 111,222} counter accept
18:45:00 <imode> ais523: any "famous few"?
18:45:01 <ais523> Underload is my favourite example; there's a conventional number representation but it's based on functions with specific behaviour
18:45:12 <Vorpal> that new commands seems rather more confusing than iptables to me
18:45:21 <Vorpal> that was just an example I found googling
18:45:23 <ais523> But Is It Art? is my new favourite example for an esolang that doesn't have /any/ sort of conventional data structure
18:45:43 <shachaf> Is the Mill an esoarchitecture?
18:45:45 <imode> "constraint-solving tarpit" now that's interesting.
18:45:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm guessing "meta l4proto udp" is just a translator artefact, it's not needed at all.
18:45:55 <Vorpal> ais523: will have to look at that
18:46:34 <imode> I was thinking of something in the style of the untyped lambda calculus.
18:46:45 <imode> iota and jot came to mind but I was wondering if there were others.
18:46:48 <Vorpal> well if there are functioning translation tools, it shouldn't be too bad to convert it
18:47:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Another semi-nice thing for complicated rulesets might be that you're not limited to a single action, which might cut down on the need for "utility chains".
18:47:51 <Vorpal> okay yes that might be useful
18:47:56 <fizzie> There's still a bunch of more or less niche match types that don't have a nftables equivalent, and anyway there's probably no hurry to migrate.
18:48:29 <Vorpal> fizzie: I set up network printing and scanning the other day. Turns out sane is one of those nasty protocols that need a connection tracking helper, it is doing separate control and data channels
18:48:43 <Vorpal> Ended up doing a utility chain for it
18:48:47 <fizzie> I've seen the SANE conntrack helper around, yes.
18:49:24 <fizzie> Personally I'm blocked by the fact that the "tcpmss" match type is not in any release yet, though it (actually a generic "TCP options" thing) is implemented in the git, so presumably it will be coming.
18:50:02 <Vorpal> fizzie: a little more than a year out of date, but: https://wiki.nftables.org/wiki-nftables/index.php/Supported_features_compared_to_xtables
18:50:19 <Vorpal> fizzie: what do you need that for
18:50:30 <Vorpal> tcpmss consider native interface <--?
18:50:45 <fizzie> Yeah, I never found out what that means.
18:50:54 <fizzie> Even after a lot of searching.
18:51:31 <Vorpal> fizzie: hm I think the ufw firewall for ipv6 use the HL (hoplimit?) thing, maybe
18:51:49 <fizzie> Anyway, I need it for my current port knock thing, which is based on setting a specific MSS value to act as a key.
18:52:15 <ais523> OK, I found the IPs using lsof
18:52:18 <ais523> there were actually three of them
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18:59:46 <ais523> ugh, I hate that Pulseaudio bug
18:59:51 * ais523 turns off audible bell in the terminal
18:59:58 <ais523> it crashes if you end it beeps too quickly
19:00:15 <ais523> and although you can restart it, it then isn't integrated with the OS, meaning that things like the volume control shortcut keys no longer work
19:00:23 <ais523> so I normally just reboot unless I'm in the middle of something important
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19:12:58 <\oren\> ais523: >using pulseaudio
19:13:33 <\oren\> sudo pkill -9 pulseaudio
19:15:19 <ais523> ooh, I found the logs, apparently systemd is keeping them
19:15:22 <\oren\> rm -rf ~/.config/pulse
19:15:23 <ais523> \oren\: then I wouldn't have sound
19:15:34 <\oren\> sudo apt-get remove pulseaudio
19:15:54 <ais523> I actually find some of pulseaudio's features useful
19:16:00 <ais523> like independent volume controls per-program
19:16:15 <ais523> OK, now I'm more confident that these bans are justified
19:20:57 <\oren\> jack is a better audio thing
19:21:14 <\oren\> but really alsa works fine anyway
19:21:44 <ais523> when I telnet to nethack4.org the connection is logged as being over IPv6
19:21:52 <ais523> and yet IPv6 testers say I don't have an IPv6 connection
19:22:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> it crashes if you end it beeps too quickly <-- this sentence grammar?
19:22:22 <Hoolootwo> I don't think that sentence grammar
19:22:28 <ais523> Vorpal: "end" is a typo for "send"
19:22:41 <ais523> it makes more sense if you put a transitive verb there :-)
19:23:18 <Vorpal> ais523: I tried "it's" but that failed too
19:23:26 <ais523> huh, why do I have IPv6 telnet if I don't have IPv6 http
19:24:18 <Vorpal> ais523: maybe it is just bound to * and thus report clients as ipv6 mapped ipv4?
19:25:09 <ais523> nah, I can telnet to the IPv6 address directly
19:25:16 <ais523> then I tried sshing to it, and got a password prompt
19:25:26 <ais523> then I tried sshing to my server over IPv4, and got a complaint from ssh
19:25:28 <ais523> so now I'm really confused
19:27:15 <Vorpal> ais523: check ifconfig to see if you have ipv6?
19:27:22 <Vorpal> apart from link local I mean
19:30:58 <ais523> I have IPv6 to the router but that's not surprising
19:32:05 <ais523> oh, I know what happened, and why I was so confused
19:32:10 <ais523> I ssh'ed from my computer to the server
19:32:13 <ais523> then from the server to itself
19:32:28 <ais523> so I was connecting /from/ the wrong computer
19:32:33 <ais523> that's why nothing seemed to match up
19:32:47 <ais523> I need differently coloured prompts or something
19:32:55 <Vorpal> ais523: so the server had ipv6 the whole time?
19:33:57 <ais523> I know my server has IPv6
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19:41:51 <Vorpal> ais523: as for the pulse audio thing, never seen that bug
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19:42:29 <Vorpal> ais523: as for the pulse audio thing, never seen that bug
19:42:47 <Vorpal> hm right, I always turn off the bell in inputrc, so that removes the major source of it
19:42:58 <Vorpal> might depend on the terminal emulator you use I guess
19:43:33 <ais523> it normally happens when scrolling in less
19:43:40 <ais523> less beeps if you try to scroll past the end of the file
19:43:49 <ais523> and I normally use the mouse wheel with less, so that can give a lot of inputs very quickly
19:44:23 <Vorpal> does it? doesn't beep for me
19:44:57 <Vorpal> I guess it reads inputrc too and disables the bell based on that?
19:45:34 <Vorpal> I find the bell during tab completion so terrible I immediately disables it completely
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20:31:14 <HackEgo> copumpkin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:43:25 <fizzie> Pressing backspace when there's no input to erase in xscreensaver's password input dialog is pretty much the only thing that produces a beep here. I don't know what exactly it's doing.
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20:44:18 <fizzie> (URxvt.visualBell: True in .Xresources, 'xset b off' in .xsession.)
20:47:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52427&oldid=52410 * Zzo38 * (+504) Character codes
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21:50:53 <wob_jonas> "<Vorpal> Hm Debian stretch was released last month. Time to upgrade maybe. Or should I wait half a year for it to stabilise." => oh great!
21:51:05 <wob_jonas> thanks for mentioning, I didn't notice it's come out yet
21:51:25 <wob_jonas> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/
21:57:14 <zzo38> How might we calculate which constellation a set of coordinates is in? One consideration will be that there are some polar constellations, Octans and Ursa Minor. The boundaries seem to be almost straight along the axis of right ascension or declination, but not quite; they are a bit off.
21:58:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I thought the boundaries are always polygons with latitude and longitude line boundaries
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22:00:01 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes they are always polygons, although the lines are not always aligned like that, it is slightly off, it seems from the data
22:00:36 <wob_jonas> are all of them slightly off, or just some?
22:02:05 <zzo38> I think all, but I have not checked all of them. Here is one: https://www.iau.org/static/public/constellations/txt/and.txt The first number is right ascension and the next number is declination, you can see they are nearly aligned but not quite
22:02:37 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is it possible that they're all aligned but in a different coordinate system that is rotated compared to the one this is described in?
22:03:18 <zzo38> I don't know; I haven't checked.
22:03:31 <wob_jonas> um, what do those numbers mean in the text file you linked?
22:04:40 <zzo38> I mentioned: the first column (before the first |) is the right ascension (in hours), and the second is the declination (in degrees), and the last part is the abbreviation for the constellation name.
22:05:10 <zzo38> The numbers are J2000 equatorial coordinates.
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23:23:23 <HackEgo> 1/2:complete heyting algebra//A complete Heyting algebra is just a cartesian closed complete lattice. \ pipe//This is not a pipe. \ maths//Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin. \ manager//Manager FAQ (by seebs) at http://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.html \ portmanteau//«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man to
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00:20:11 <ais523> update: I've now configured the server to use the sort of garish coloured prompts that people turn on because they care more about showing off what their terminal looks like than actually using it
00:20:20 <ais523> hopefully I'm unlikely to forget I'm using it then
00:21:02 <shachaf> I think you're reading into people's intent a little more than is reasonable there.
00:21:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: and the purpose for this is to make sure you don't accidentally type something to that prompt instead of the prompt for some other server?
00:21:53 <ais523> wob_jonas: nah, it's to make sure that I don't type something on the server which I expect to be on my own laptop, which I'm connecting from
00:22:10 <ais523> it's hard to actually do damage that way (probably possible), but it can be very confusing
00:22:30 <ais523> because things I expect to be there just aren't (like ssh keys and programs)
00:22:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: the easiest is to shut down. I actually set up custom aliases of the form "foohalt" and "fooreboot" that are like halt and reboot but only on the machine named foo
00:23:25 <wob_jonas> (well, sort of. they're not exactly equivalent to /sbin/halt but almost the same)
00:23:30 <ais523> I've never had trouble with that because it would take very bizarre circumstances to shut down my own laptop from a graphical terminal
00:23:44 <ais523> if it were an emergency, I'd be using the text terminal or REISUO; if it's a routine shutdown, I'd use the GUI
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01:51:08 <imode> is urbit a running gag now.
01:51:15 <imode> because if it isn't it should be.
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02:51:37 <HackEgo> 8208:2016-05-29 <b_jonäs> learn Manager FAQ (by seebs) at http://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.html
02:57:15 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes I think they are aligned in a different coordinate system; the constellations are defined for B1875 but the coordinates in those file are J2000.
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10:23:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52428&oldid=52426 * Destructible watermelon * (+1563) Undo revision 52426 by [[Special:Contributions/Xavo|Xavo]] ([[User talk:Xavo|talk]])
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11:31:13 <Vorpal> upgrading debian from jessie to stretch I saw a line saying "deconfiguring udev (broken by systemd)". Scary.
11:46:40 <fizzie> I switched to the systemd persistent network interface names on this box, though "eno1" still looks a little weird.
11:48:24 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
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11:49:12 <int-e> > fix$(0:).scanl(+)1
11:49:14 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
11:54:30 <Vorpal> fizzie: I have seen ens33 on some box for the first wired interface
11:54:37 <Vorpal> using ubuntu 16.04 iirc
11:58:29 <fizzie> It will do "enoX" for on-board (== getting an interface index from firmware), "ensX" for pcie hotplug slots (and I think some virtualized things as well), "enpXsY" for PCI device by location, "enpXsYuZuWuQ..." for a chain of USB ports.
11:59:25 <fizzie> Debian installed some stuff in /etc/systemd/network/ to disable the thing for my Xen guest, with some comments about there being some weirdness going on with virtual interfaces.
12:00:07 <fizzie> (And of course it was doubly moot since it also won't do anything if you still have matching /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules lines.)
12:02:17 <fizzie> Based on "udevadm info /sys/class/net/eth0" output, I think my VPS's network interface would call itself "ens3" if it wasn't for that.
12:12:37 <int-e> I don't have systemd and the interface is still called eth0. I'm not complaining, but why...
12:13:01 <fizzie> It would be more unexpected the other way around.
12:13:19 <fizzie> The names I mentioned were the systemd names, the kernel names are still the ethX they've long been.
12:14:44 <int-e> ah, down there: E: INTERFACE=eth0 ... fine
12:16:20 <int-e> . o O ( but why is this done by systemd rather than udev anyway )
12:17:12 <int-e> . o O ( I mean they could just teach udev to use ID_NET_NAME_PATH for the interface name. It would probably be a simple rule. )
12:17:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52429&oldid=52010 * Primo * (+0) /* 100-149 */ soft-wrapping is never necessary for 3-cells, other values updated for consistency
12:18:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52430&oldid=52429 * Primo * (+0) /* 150-199 */ soft-wrapping is never necessary for 3-cells, other values updated for consistency
12:21:05 <fizzie> They might've had an argument for that, though I forget what it was.
12:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52431&oldid=52430 * Primo * (-229) /* 200-255 */ soft-wrapping is never necessary for 3-cells, other values updated for consistency
12:21:21 <fizzie> Might be just that systemd/udev developers don't really like to think of them as separate things.
12:24:30 <int-e> (The sad thing is that you're probably right. But I hate it.)
12:25:48 <fizzie> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/ calls it "systemd/udev" a whole lot.
12:26:11 <fizzie> "With systemd 197 we have added native support for a number of different naming policies into systemd/udevd proper" "same on all distributions that adopted systemd/udev" and so on.
12:26:55 <int-e> oh, because that's not udevd; they have their own
12:30:38 <int-e> but that's not right either; my "systemd-less" VM is running /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd --daemon
12:31:42 <fizzie> I thought they merged them all into a single codebase.
12:32:05 <int-e> yeah, it appears they did do that
12:32:27 <fizzie> I assume they'll incrementally make it harder and harder to use udev without the rest of systemd.
12:43:22 <int-e> systemd is a cancer, it gets everywhere. I think that's the main reason I hate it. That and I have to relearn things with no (immediate) benefit to me.
12:44:24 <int-e> (The core dump interception is perhaps the bit that has me bitten the hardest so far. It can be turned off, but first one has to figure out *why* the core dumps are no longer produced the way they used to be.)
12:45:27 <int-e> I'm also no big fan of the system journal; I like perusing text files.
12:46:06 * int-e is an irrational being at heart :P
12:46:30 <fizzie> There's a lot of "something's happening, and I have no idea where it's configured" going on there.
12:47:57 <int-e> (Oh right, builtin policies. I wanted to configure my laptop so that it wouldn't go to sleep when the lid is closed while it's in a docking station... I don't think I managed, but it's been a while since I really tried.)
12:48:23 <int-e> (I *do* want it to sleep when the lid is closed while it's running on battery.)
12:54:37 <Vorpal> fizzie: well, UEFI is bugged after upgrade. No boot device found
12:54:48 <Vorpal> booting from USB stick now to fix it
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12:56:03 <Vorpal> great, I only get screen on the right monitor using this on this USB stick. Fuck nvidia maybe
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12:59:06 <Vorpal> okay unplugged that monitor, rebooted. Now I get an "incompatible input timing" message on my main monitor
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13:00:07 <int-e> . o O ( No boot device found, is that coming from the BIOS or later? I've had trouble telling the BIOS about a new configuration from Linux; had to search for it in the BIOS setup itself. But I don't fully understand this ... basically I'm just glad I got it to work. )
13:00:26 <Vorpal> int-e: it is from the UEFI/BIOS
13:04:03 <int-e> I guess what I'm saying is that going through the BIOS' boot setup *may* be necessary to get things to work, because that has happened to me. This is anecdotal, not scientific.
13:05:16 <fizzie> Computers: not an exact science.
13:05:40 <Jafet> since red hat sells training and consulting, it only makes sense for it to make systemd as complicated as possible
13:06:16 <Vorpal> Well the output from efibootmgr is borked. Didn't list any EFI based debian
13:06:40 <fizzie> The other day I briefly unplugged one monitor, and after plugging it back (until the next reboot), xscreensaver's screen-blanking only blanked about 90% of the screen, leaving about one fifth of the left monitor's left edge showing whatever was there before locking the screen.
13:06:41 <Vorpal> <int-e> I guess what I'm saying is that going through the BIOS' boot setup *may* be necessary to get things to work, because that has happened to me. This is anecdotal, not scientific. <-- can't do it from there, have to do it from live USB
13:07:29 <Vorpal> fizzie: well this display works normally, but from the stripped down system rescue CD apparently.
13:08:23 <Vorpal> looks much better in efibootmgr now, hopefully the info is correct too
13:08:35 <fizzie> Also, when switching to the GLVND variant of the non-free nvidia driver, I had to install both libgl1-glvnd-nvidia-glx and libgl1-nvidia-glvnd-glx, which are two different packages.
13:10:52 <Vorpal> fizzie: my nvidia card is too new to be supported by non-free drivers (at least for 3D acceleration) last I looked
13:11:01 <Vorpal> err by the free I mean
13:11:17 <Vorpal> fizzie: what is the glvnd thing?
13:11:49 <fizzie> https://github.com/NVIDIA/libglvnd -- they make two variants of their binary driver nowadays, with and without that.
13:12:01 <Vorpal> jeez, ACP and LVM errors from super-early kernel/initramfs
13:13:18 <fizzie> I don't know what it's good for, but an "nvidia-vulkan-common" upgrade (on Debian testing) was listed as conflicting with the non-GLVND variant.
13:17:23 <Vorpal> interesting, the new version of debian auto-mounted a data disk with NTFS as rw under /media/<user>/
13:17:36 <Vorpal> not the system (C:) partition though
13:18:27 <fizzie> I use "udisksctl mount -b /dev/..." to mount removable media, and can never tell how it decides between /media/usb0 and /media/<user>/<label>.
13:18:44 <Vorpal> it always seem to auto-mount for me
13:18:56 <Vorpal> anyway why did it mount ntfs (using some fuse driver) as rw
13:19:05 <Vorpal> I don't want it doing that. I don't trust it
13:19:39 <Vorpal> oh so mint menu no longer works in new debian
13:23:37 <Vorpal> also the chromium failed to update, some dependency mess
13:31:46 <Jafet> @ask ais523 the x := (j + x)/(k + x) device in trajedy should also work in conedy
13:34:39 <Jafet> @ask ais523 my guess is that the x := (x + j)/k device is not enough to be universal, but using both might be
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14:04:29 <Vorpal> Going to see if cinnamon is okay
14:04:50 <Vorpal> can't find the right version of mintmenu to make it work with the mate version on debian
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14:21:46 <int-e> oh, no mirrors, hmm
14:23:02 <int-e> (That is, there are no mirrors in Conedy, in contrast to Trajedy.)
14:26:27 <int-e> Otoh, a ray may pass through a beacon, so perhaps that's not so bad.
14:33:05 <Jafet> I had thought of changing to orthogonal mirrors to remove the tunnelling artifact, but conedy's design is better
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14:52:21 <int-e> but the state is effectively reduced from 2 to 1 rational number, which may explain why Conedy looks very much Turing incomplete to me, though that will be impossible to prove. ;-)
14:54:06 <Jafet> the state is one rational number in both languages
14:54:23 <Vorpal> cinnamon seems okay. don't like the semi-transparent menu and taskbar popups. Apparently that is tied to the theme though, so I'd have to switch to another theme, which may be worse in some other way
14:54:27 <Vorpal> or make a custom theme
14:54:57 <int-e> Jafet: no, in Trajedy, if the ray originates from a mirror, you have a direction *and* an offset on the mirror
14:55:12 <int-e> Jafet: which is very much exploited in the tube device.
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14:56:01 <int-e> Jafet: in Conedy, every ray passes through some beacon, so only the direction is left (all this is claiming some additional finite amount of state which I think of as flow control)
14:57:31 <int-e> claiming? not sure what I wanted to use there... "ignoring" fits
15:00:54 <Jafet> mirrors can rearrange the state into two parameters, but that's not really new state
15:01:36 <int-e> Vorpal: to make this idea a bit more formal: If I wanted to translate a Trajedy program into a programming language that has variables that are rational numbers, manipulated by rational Möbius transformations, and conditional jumps based on comparison with a rational constant, then I'd need two variables. With Conedy, one variable is enough.
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15:02:38 <Jafet> anyway, fractran has half a rational number as state so that doesn't, by itself, disprove anything
15:02:58 <int-e> Jafet: note the restriction on the conditional, it's very important
15:03:48 <Jafet> huh, there is such a thing as a Möbius transformation
15:08:20 <int-e> I guess I need addition as well for the reduction from Trajedy (u += v), otherwise the mirror-mirror transition cannot be encoded.
15:13:51 <int-e> Jafet: Knowing about Möbius transformations (in particular the fact that they form a group) gave me the confidence to attempt building the x -> (1-x)/(1+x) transition that is fundamental for the corrected zig-zag test.
15:18:55 <int-e> (you can also think of them as perspective transformations in a single dimension; both views can be helpful)
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15:36:28 <Vorpal> int-e: interesting, but why did you highlight me about it?
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15:58:49 <int-e> Vorpal: no particular reason, I have a strong tendency to pick the wrong name from the recent history to reply to
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16:26:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Comefrom0x10]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52432&oldid=52424 * Julfers * (+84)
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16:41:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: there doesn't seem to be support for nft in stretch, unlike what you suggested?
16:42:10 <Vorpal> or hm, the "install this package to get the command thing" may be broken
16:49:39 <fizzie> Should be there as 'nftables'.
16:55:40 <int-e> . o O ( not fucking terrible?! )
16:56:43 <int-e> (it came up yesterday; I still remember)
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17:19:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Christopher * New user account
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18:21:18 <Jafet> interesting, the gnome package depends on the apache2-bin package
18:28:53 <fizzie> I once had some HP printer drivers (on Windows) that bundled Apache Tomcat in them.
18:29:05 <fizzie> Because the printer control dialog was actually a JSP thing.
18:30:55 <int-e> it's things like those that make me wish I'd learned carpentry
18:31:48 <fizzie> I'm sure there's something equivalent to complain about in carpentry.
18:31:53 <Jafet> the apache foundation probably has something for your cnc router, too
18:32:57 <int-e> fizzie: ikea furniture? :P
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19:36:17 <zzo38> Do you know if GCC can detect type mismatch in printf format strings even if the format argument is using a ?: operator?
19:38:53 <fizzie> I was real confident it wouldn't, but apparently it just might.
19:39:05 <fizzie> 19:38 <fizzie> ,cc int main(int argc, char **argv) { printf(argc ? "%d" : "%05d", 12.3); }
19:39:08 <fizzie> 19:38 <candide> fizzie: [warning: format '%d' expects argument of type 'int', but argument 2 has type 'double' [-Wformat=]
19:42:24 <alercah> you can't have different types on both sides, so it's easy enouhg
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19:42:56 <fizzie> I think the question was about checking the *other* parameters against the format specifiers.
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19:47:45 <fizzie> With the format string provided as foo ? "format 1" : "format 2".
19:48:12 <fizzie> See the example I tried.
19:48:47 <Vorpal> <alercah> you can't have different types on both sides, so it's easy enouhg <-- that annoyed me in C++, where I wanted to use it to select different overloads.
19:49:27 <Vorpal> forgot the exact situation, but it cropped up a couple of times
19:49:59 <Vorpal> Or doing stuff like something ? boost::none : value, needing extra casts to boost::optional<T> in both cases
19:55:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Random question -- do you happen to know what I could use if I had a program that supported a gamepad in general, but had hardcoded keyboard shortcuts for some actions, and I wanted to bind an (unused) gamepad button to one of those keys.
19:55:58 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, it is about checking other parameters against format specifiers, and the example you gave is like how I mean.
19:55:58 <fizzie> I've found a couple of things for generally binding gamepad to keyboard/mouse keys, but I don't know if using those would allow the program's native gamepad support to still work.
19:56:03 <fizzie> (Guess I could bind *everything* to keys, and configure the program to just use a keyboard.)
20:00:10 <zzo38> That can work although my idea would have been that the program might be implemented to use one layer to translate input into MIDI (and you can replace this layer then if needed), and the other layer interprets the MIDI messages that are received in this way.
20:01:22 <zzo38> (You can then, in future, to easily support gamepads that can detect how hard you pushed the buttons, if needed, without needing to replace everything.)
20:10:29 <Vorpal> fizzie: Windows or Linux?
20:11:36 <Hoolootwo> hmm, is there a good one of those for linux? I would be interested in that
20:11:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: also, if windows, 1) native xinput pad (e.g. xbox pad) or dualshock 4? 2) is the program using xinput or directx input?
20:12:11 <Hoolootwo> it'd be nice if there were a cross-platform scriptable way of doing it
20:12:40 <Vorpal> zzo38: why midi? Sounds needlessly complicated
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20:13:47 <Vorpal> fizzie: anyway for the dualshock 4 case I believe there is a windows app for it, ds4windows that I think can do that. Don't have one of those though.
20:14:26 <Vorpal> fizzie: on android the sixaxis controller root-requring program can do that as well (at least with PS3 controllers)
20:15:07 <Vorpal> fizzie: for the linux case I assume it isn't complicated. I have been wondering about the xinput case myself a couple of times
20:15:18 <Vorpal> xinput on windows that is
20:15:43 <Vorpal> I would also like to be able to remap buttons and such on the controller
20:16:09 <Vorpal> hm that I can actually do on windows, but only stuff like a to b and such, which is not as useful
20:16:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: You do not actually need to use the protocol, although the format of the messages will help at least.
20:16:59 <Vorpal> I have an xbox one elite controller, the windows store app for that lets you set up profiles, but nothing like mapping to keyboard
20:18:47 <zzo38> For Windows, there is a program GlovePIE (with a license that prohibits using in some countries, using it to cheat at multiplayer games (although it is OK to use it to cheat at singleplayer games), and earning money using it for baseball simulation).
20:19:28 <Vorpal> that is a really really strange license
20:19:38 <zzo38> Yes, it is strange
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20:41:30 <Vorpal> fizzie: I can only imagine there exists some program for it on Linux, but I don't know off hand what it would be
20:45:05 <fizzie> I've found a few -- https://github.com/Ryochan7/antimicro seems pretty popular though not packaged in Debian, or xboxdrv which is in the repo. (The latter was originally just a very configurable userspace driver for Xbox pads, but can also read from a /dev/input/eventX so it can do the keymapping stuff for any device.)
20:45:37 <fizzie> Should probably just try out if they'd play well with the program.
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21:05:38 <zzo38> Should the esolang wiki article about MIX (Knuth) maybe should mention in the instruction listing, which ones are extensions and which one are standards? (I don't know which one they are, but I have added the character codes)
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21:41:58 <zzo38> When writing bindings for other program languages such as SQL and JavaScript, usually the call to create a function can use a user-defined pointer value for whatever purpose you need; I find I usually do not need it but the times I have used it, it is almost always a function pointer. Is that how you do too?
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22:27:24 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Yes I think they are aligned in a different coordinate system; the constellations are defined for B1875 but the coordinates in those file are J2000." ok
22:30:32 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> The other day I briefly unplugged one monitor, and after plugging it back (until the next reboot), xscreensaver's screen-blanking only blanked about 90% of the screen, leaving about one fifth of the left monitor's left edge showing whatever was there before locking the screen." lol, that's an amusing bug
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22:34:20 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Do you know if GCC can detect type mismatch in printf format strings even if the format argument is using a ?: operator?" => no idea, you might want to TIAS (possibly both with and without optimizations) and/or ask on #gcc
22:35:32 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> Vorpal: Random question -- do you happen to know what I could use if I had a program that supported a gamepad in general, but had hardcoded keyboard shortcuts for some actions, and I wanted to bind an (unused) gamepad button to one of those keys." => I think there are programs that bind gamepad buttons to keyboard keys
22:35:48 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> I've found a couple of things for generally binding gamepad to keyboard/mouse keys, but I don't know if using those would allow the program's native gamepad support to still work." ah
22:35:49 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Yeah, I ended up using this "antimicro" one.
22:36:24 <fizzie> Yeah, just fine. I guess it's okay to have multiple readers on an input device.
22:39:37 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Should the esolang wiki article about MIX (Knuth) maybe should mention in the instruction listing, which ones are extensions and which one are standards? (I don't know which one they are, but I have added the character codes)" => perhaps. though sometimes it's not clear what even counts as standard and extension, since the binary and float
22:39:37 <wob_jonas> ing point extensions are explained in the main text, not in exercises.
22:40:28 <wob_jonas> also, about MIX, question, where does TAOCP say that the IN/OUT instructions for disk drive use the rX register for the sector number? is that in chapter 1 somewhere, or only later in chapter 4 or something?
22:41:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but basically the instructions I mention in the main text plus the system instructions HLT, JRED, JBUS, IOC, IN, OUT are the standard ones.
22:43:40 <wob_jonas> And even then I guess a cheap machine might not implement IOC if it doesn't have any I/O devices that support it, and might have stub implementations for JBUS/JRED if its I/O devices are always synchronous.
22:48:29 <wob_jonas> What would definitely make sense is to define the JBUS, JRED, IN, OUT, IOC, HLT instructions for the cheaper I/O devices in the text, so that the text becomes enough reference for implementing a simple MIX machine.
22:49:31 <int-e> wow, what a bug. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=849342 <-- xserver-xorg-legacy break xrdp (on Debian stretch)
22:54:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that character code doesn't seem right
22:55:11 <wob_jonas> in the Hungarian translation (which is based on the older editions), the greek characters in the code are Delta, Sigma and Pi. I cant' check in the new English originals, because the greek letters are messed up in the PDF e-book.
22:57:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MIX (Knuth)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52433 * B jonas * (+260) Created page with "The character code doesn't seem right. In the Hungarian translation (which is based on the older editions), the three greek letters are Delta, Sigma and Pi. I cant' check in..."
22:57:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: could you check the character code?
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23:15:14 <wob_jonas> Re sector number for disk I/O is rX: it's defined right there in 1.3 where it should be, above the definition of the I/O instructions.
23:15:21 <wob_jonas> I was just blind and didn't see it.
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23:20:44 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I have a book from library, which is Art of Computer Programming vol. 3, and the page in the back gives Theta, Phi, Pi. That is where I got them
23:21:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what edition of TAOCP vol 3? first or second?
23:23:24 <wob_jonas> Doesn't it say somewhere near the beginning?
23:24:27 <zzo38> I checked and it does not seem to say
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23:26:30 <wob_jonas> I mean, there's one stupid change in the Hungarian translation: they changed the letters used for the assembly syntax of local labels. So it's not impossible that they changed the greek letters too.
23:26:35 <zzo38> Maybe it can be mentioned that some versions are using different Greek alphabets
23:27:24 <wob_jonas> Ideally I'd like to know what the latest paper version in the original English says. Maybe someone here will volunteer that info.
23:27:43 <wob_jonas> But eventually it's not really important.
23:27:44 <zzo38> Yes, if someone can figure out, it can help.
23:27:53 <wob_jonas> It doesn't change anything really.
23:28:37 <wob_jonas> Also, it's totally in character for a 70s computer for the teletype to use slightly different character codes in different countries.
23:30:25 <wob_jonas> Also I should try to figure out what font encoding or simliar problem is why the greek letters are messed up in the e-book, maybe I could reverse engineer the greek letters from that.
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23:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52434&oldid=52427 * B jonas * (+1427)
23:40:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52435&oldid=52434 * B jonas * (+196)
23:42:19 <wob_jonas> I think what's messed up is that in the vanilla computer modern fonts, cmtt doesn't have the double acute accent, and has some other character there instead, so in some LaTeX fonts they added the double acute accent to some other code where the greek letters used to be.
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23:42:53 <wob_jonas> But I'm not sure where I can easily look up the character encoding for those LaTeX fonts.
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23:46:31 <wob_jonas> The characters that show up in the TAOCP pdf are: 10 acute accent, 20 ring accent, 21 double acute accent.
23:49:40 <wob_jonas> In the original computer modern encoding, in cmr, acute is on 0x13, ring is on 0x17, double acute is on 0x7D; in cmtt, acute and ring are still in the same place, and double acute isn't present.
23:54:58 <wob_jonas> But those codes are less relevants. In the original encoding, the greek characters in cmtt are at: 0x01 Delta, 0x02 Theta, 0x03 Lambda, 0x05 Pi, 0x08 Phi.
23:58:42 <wob_jonas> And indeed in the LaTeX 8t encoding, the accents are at: 0x01 grave, 0x01 acute, 0x02 circumflex, 0x03 tilde, 0x04 diaresis, 0x05 double acute, 0x06 ring (wtf), 0x08 brevis.
23:59:48 <wob_jonas> That would make the three greek letters in the MIX character code: 10 Delta, 20 Sigma, 21 Pi.
00:00:30 <wob_jonas> That's the same as in the Hungarian translation.
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00:01:18 <zzo38> I also think it would make more sense with Delta, Sigma, Pi, anyways, although the book I have says otherwise. (Perhaps a note saying that allegedly some versions use different Greek alphabets)
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00:01:57 <zzo38> (I don't know why this book I have says something different, then.)
00:02:05 <wob_jonas> zzo38: actually a Lambda would make sense somewhere in there, because the book uses Lambda for the null pointer, so that would come handy in debug printouts
00:02:52 <wob_jonas> So perhaps Delta, Lambda, Sigma might have been the best combo; although some punctuation signs or accents may make even more sense than greek letters.
00:03:21 <zzo38> Yes, maybe, or that too, it makes some sense you are right.
00:03:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: just to make sure, the book you have from the library is in English, right?
00:03:59 <zzo38> Yes, it is English
00:05:14 <zzo38> Although the character codes only go up to 55 and it would be possible to add more if needed, anyways
00:08:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52436&oldid=52433 * B jonas * (+555)
00:09:17 <wob_jonas> I documented this on the talk page in case I need the info later.
00:10:56 <wob_jonas> This explains the accent signs, but as for the difference in greek characters, it might be worth to ask the reasons on some other forum.
00:11:13 <wob_jonas> For history that is, not because it matters in practice.
00:17:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Hi\n]]": Author request: Original author blanked page, assuming e wants to delete
00:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52437&oldid=51709 * Oerjan * (-50) /* General languages */ Remove hi\n
00:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Xavo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52438 * Oerjan * (+206) Hi\n deleted
00:41:13 <wob_jonas> meanwhile I'm reorganizing my kitchen
00:42:52 <wob_jonas> the question is what to put in the harder to access top shelves
01:57:59 <boily> \oren\: he\\oren\. https://youtu.be/1WTy2yqKI4w
02:03:19 <int-e> . o O ( bitcoin reaches $2k again... from above )
02:03:52 * oerjan really doesn't get j-pop
02:08:17 <boily> int-ello. BTC 1.00 = USD 2,000???
02:09:28 <boily> j-pop and k-pop are multiple genres unto themselves.
02:23:15 <oerjan> if i had a bitcoin / daidle deedle daidle / ...
02:34:05 <HackEgo> 1/2:canaima//Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. \ c//C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault \ antarctica//There's no such country as Antarctica. \ jesus//Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator. \ // is a space, unless you'r
02:34:25 <HackEgo> 2/2:e hackego and don't understand wide characters.
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02:46:36 <oerjan> boily: obviously pre-nitia, so won't show up in history.
02:49:27 <boily> All Praise Nitia, All Hear Nitia, Nitia Who Created The World, Nitia From Which Begat Taneb, And From Taneb There Was Nitia, Heed Their Wisdom
02:49:31 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris has a function to convert ecliptic or equatorial coordinates into azimuth/altitude, and can do refraction too, although there is no mode to use the hour angle as input, and there is some other stuff missing too, so it is a bit useless. I could to try to reimplement my own version which does use hour angle.
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04:13:39 <zzo38> Also the documentation for Swiss Ephemeris seems to be full of a lot of lies, although looking at the source-codes helps (source-codes weren't available until version 1.26, apparently)
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08:28:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52439 * Challenger5 * (+1022) Created page with "CJam-Flavored Underload is a dialect of [[Underload]] that makes it a proper subset of [[CJam]]. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Underload Command !! CFU Versio..."
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09:55:56 <Jafet> hmm is there a language based on the rowhammer effect
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13:16:43 <lambdabot> CYUL 161200Z 24010KT 30SM FEW060 FEW090 SCT150 SCT240 21/16 A2989 RMK SC1AC1AC2CI1 AC TR CI TR SLP121 DENSITY ALT 900FT
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14:26:57 <Jafet> `slwd jesus//sith.* aiai
14:27:00 <HackEgo> jesus//Jesus was a famous wisdom creator.
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15:47:45 <int-e> . o O ( s/a f/an inf/ )
15:48:08 <HackEgo> “Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
15:48:22 <int-e> . o O ( /sith lord )
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17:08:21 <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
17:08:21 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
17:21:51 <zzo38> I made up two implementation of Underload, one in TeX and one in JavaScript.
17:25:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52440&oldid=52439 * Oerjan * (-41) /* Example */ Seems to work fine
17:29:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/jesus//Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator.
17:30:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: after: not found
17:30:06 <HackEgo> wisdom/jesus//Jesus was a famous wisdom creator.
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17:36:09 <newsham> shachaf: never heard of such a thing (lang based on rowhammer)
17:36:33 <newsham> since the effect has low probability and is unpredictable.. seems like it would be difficult to harness for programming
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17:41:20 <Vorpal> wow submitting bugs to debian feels like an outdated process. It appears you send a mail to it rather than use a web interface.
17:43:07 <shachaf> newsham: Well, I think there are esolangs with that property.
17:44:28 <Vorpal> fizzie: I did hit a bug with the update to stretch on my VPS too. Broken AppArmor profiles for postfix. Binaries have moved, profiles aren't updated
17:44:48 <Vorpal> should have stayed on oldstable ;P
17:45:47 <lambdabot> uptime: 4h 41m 36s, longest uptime: 1m 22d 27m 19s
17:46:01 <Vorpal> that is a pretty low uptime
17:46:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just consider upgrading a public service -- bugs won't get fixed if nobody hits them.
17:46:53 <int-e> well the host has 2 days uptime now. but "remote host closed connection", hmm.
17:47:31 <int-e> I think that's a lie
17:47:52 <fizzie> In other news, saw a fire today. Well, or at least a bunch of smoke and a lot of emergency services cars.
17:48:14 <shachaf> Where there's a lot of emergency service cars, there's fire. As they say.
18:07:54 <Vorpal> fizzie: in other news, pulseaudio is broken on desktop after upgrade to stretch. Or so vlc claims. Have not yet debugged it
18:08:06 <int-e> Where's smoke there's smoke.
18:10:40 <Vorpal> so it is vlc that is borked after the upgrade
18:10:55 <Vorpal> and mpv claims to be using pulse too
18:13:42 <Vorpal> it works when I configure vlc to use pulse directly rather than to play to the pulse device using alsa
18:19:33 <zzo38> Is there a C API to use WebAssembly? There is one for JavaScript, but I thought there should be a API for use with C, also.
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18:29:51 <Vorpal> it appears my system is now sshing to itself twice every few minutes
18:30:11 <Vorpal> with "did not receive identification string from..."
18:31:57 <Vorpal> once from port 41xxx and then once from 59xxx
18:36:28 <int-e> I don't see anything like this. I see the usual password scanners which oddly enough do not support sha1 ( Unable to negotiate with 61.177.172.40 port 57526: no matching key exchange method found. Their offer: diffie-hellman-group14-sha1,diffie-hellman-group-exchange-sha1,diffie-hellman-group1-sha1 [preauth])
18:39:14 <int-e> "invalid user butter" hmm.
18:39:32 <Vorpal> I don't see it on my desktop, just the VPS
18:39:37 <int-e> err, do not support sha256, my bad.
18:39:38 <Vorpal> and both have sshd running
18:40:16 <Vorpal> yeah the traffic is over lo
18:41:03 <Vorpal> hm I need netstat in some sort of quick monitor mode so I can catch which program is doing it
18:43:55 <int-e> probably? netstat -npa | grep ::1:22
18:44:51 <Vorpal> it reports with the public ip though
18:45:54 <Vorpal> so I'm doing something more elaborate in a loop
18:50:29 <int-e> hmm, I've never used the audit stuff (auditctl and co)
18:51:32 <Vorpal> ooh that is a good idea
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18:51:41 <Vorpal> maybe I can use that to audit who creates a socket
18:51:48 <Vorpal> because netstat in a loop did not
18:51:55 <int-e> though it may be hard to apply it here (the syscall would be `connect`, but the interesting data is behind a pointer)
18:55:07 <Vorpal> int-e: the really weird thing is that it reports the external ip on lo, but maybe that is just how the kernel routes to itself when it sees it's own ip
18:56:02 <int-e> but it may still help: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/102926/how-to-interpret-the-saddr-field-of-an-audit-log
18:56:42 <Vorpal> I'm trying to stop various services and see if it stops happening
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18:57:50 <Vorpal> not that I saw anything about cron running something every few minutes in other logs
19:01:38 <Vorpal> int-e: I figured out what it is, the IDS I use
19:01:49 <Vorpal> why it does that I don't know
19:02:07 <Vorpal> the config seems broken after upgrade anyway, it is not sending me any mail when it is stopped
19:06:02 <int-e> Fun. Maybe it's trying to check for sshd replacements (which, if done sloppily, might change the identification string that sshd sends on connect)
19:06:42 <Vorpal> well, looking in it's config file it changed format completely from what I remember
19:07:45 <int-e> (I'm just trying to answer the question why an IDS could possibly want to do this.)
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20:01:00 <zzo38> I have looked at the source codes for swe_pheno and swe_pheno_ut functions in Swiss Ephemeris, and there are some errors there too. The documentation says that SEFLG_TRUEPOS and SEFLG_HELCTR are allowed, but SEFLG_HELCTR isn't allowed (nor would it make sense), and does support some other flags (such as turning off nutation, and J2000 (although I am not sure what the choice of coordinate system has anything to do with this)).
20:01:20 <zzo38> Also, swe_pheno_ut assumes that swe_pheno returns the ephemeris used, but it doesn't (it just returns OK).
20:04:34 <zzo38> I don't know why they thought to write it like this
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20:31:46 <APic> Aahhh, ye goode olde ⧔ 😎
20:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ser2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52441&oldid=36745 * Ser2 creator * (-553) implementation disapeared from the web
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23:15:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gamrcorps * New user account
23:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ZekNikZ * New user account
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00:13:19 <zzo38> Is this document good? http://sprunge.us/LXFW Also if some functions is missing or wrong or other thing (if you know any astronomy or astrology, that would help too), then you can explain that too
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01:07:43 <wob_jonas> Nah, I don't know much astronomy. I know the swiss ephemeris can be used to predict the relative positions of the Sun, Earth, Moon, sphere of fixed stars, and Venus, which is about the amount of astronomy that is observable to me easily.
01:07:58 <wob_jonas> I mean, you can use it to tell their positions at any time, past or future.
01:08:17 <wob_jonas> Which makes the day-night cycle and the moon cycle and the seasonal cycle work.
01:08:28 <shachaf> Hm. I thought there was some entry.
01:08:41 <wob_jonas> The orientation of the Earth and Moon too of course.
01:08:48 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ cd wisdom; shopt -s dotglob; grep -R "$@" -- *
01:09:19 <shachaf> ``mkx bin/grWp//grwp -i "$@"
01:09:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mkx: not found
01:09:24 <shachaf> `mkx bin/grWp//grwp -i "$@"
01:09:59 <HackEgo> `words:The `words dictionary framework was designed by Klens Hålgar Oslekk, Upert T. Noffrey, Guiston Degraîme, Myyntti Raatalla, Gölrika Rosenskild, Zwübert von Pfölliger, Waslomir Stronderowich, Győrvan Sárbik, Gareen Shergyle, Fnörður Hljófsson, and Pastronella Gattrovezzi.
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01:18:47 <zzo38> shachaf: You could to write the entry if you know what to write I suppose (maybe)
01:19:42 <wob_jonas> A wisdom entry? Should it be truthful, like saying astronomy is trying to find out why the Earth is older than the universe?
01:21:12 <shachaf> Is there a name for \x -> sin(2pi x)?
01:21:47 <zzo38> I don't know that either
01:22:00 <wob_jonas> I don't think there's a special name for that
01:22:16 <shachaf> Or maybe it should be sin(2pi/x), not sure.
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01:22:52 <shachaf> Measuring in terms of fractions of a full turn is pretty reasonable.
01:23:12 <shachaf> Also this function maps rational numbers to algebraic numbers.
01:23:16 <wob_jonas> no it's not. measure angles in radians and information in nats.
01:23:35 <shachaf> What's a nat? Natural logarithm unit?
01:24:36 <zzo38> Although often I to call the period of trigonometric functions (equal to twice pi) as tau, or in other words, pi = half tau. You can do both.
01:25:02 <shachaf> I think bits are a pretty good unit.
01:28:31 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: Maybe you would like the problems in https://faculty.utrgv.edu/eleftherios.gkioulekas/OGS/Misc/ARUSSIAN.PDF
01:28:37 <shachaf> Also the rest of the article is p. good
01:29:48 <zzo38> I did once notice that (almost certainly just by coincidence) the first four astrological signs have first letter the same letter as the DNA. That can be one thing writing if it can be worked into a message about astrological signs maybe
01:31:07 <shachaf> zzo38: Why don't you write it?
01:31:22 <HackEgo> 10058:2016-12-31 <alercäh> addquote <zzo38> What time zone has time as a complex number? \ 8922:2016-08-16 <shachäf> addquote <zzo38> I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU. \ 8447:2016-06-11 <moon̈_> addquote <zzo38> Why does my computer support only one colormap? <oerjan> because it\'s meta-racist \ 763
01:31:34 <shachaf> `` doag | grep '<zzo38>' | grep -v addquote
01:31:38 <HackEgo> 5745:2015-06-25 <shachäf> ` rm wisdom/{revery,that,42.,send,42,discard,\'<zzo38>\',ZombieCheney,ZomieCheney,ZombieChenie} \ 5736:2015-06-25 <ZombieChenëy> learn <zzo38> is not The One \ 3288:2013-07-07 <shachäf> pastelogs <zzo38>.*please \ 1674:2013-01-23 <shachäf> pastequotes <zzo38>
01:33:40 <shachaf> These are middle school problems.
01:34:26 <shachaf> Here's one: "Tom and Dick can do a job in 2 hours. Tom and Harry can do the same job in 3 hours. Dick and Harry can do the same job in 4 hours. How long will it take for all the three of them to do this job?"
01:35:47 <shachaf> And another similar one: "It took 5 days for Huckleberry Finn to go down stream on the Mississippi by ship and 7 days to return by the same ship. How long will it take for him to make the same way down stream by raft?"
01:37:41 <Jafet> that depends on the number of monkeys on the raft
01:38:20 <shachaf> I think the problem assumes that there are zero monkeys.
01:44:40 <shachaf> @let x /+/ y = 1/(1/x + 1/y); x /-/ y = 1/(1/x - 1/y)
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02:01:13 <Jafet> `learn Astronomy is the study of stars, such as Julia Child and Gordon Ramsay, typically through long-distance viewing devices. Despite the name, it does not involve the study of the astrointestinal tract.
02:01:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'astronomy': Astronomy is the study of stars, such as Julia Child and Gordon Ramsay, typically through long-distance viewing devices. Despite the name, it does not involve the study of the astrointestinal tract.
02:03:05 <shachaf> Was astronomy invented by Astro Teller?
02:03:10 <shachaf> Or did he just tell people about it?
02:06:39 <Jafet> his astronomy teachings are lost because he failed to pen them down
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02:08:05 <lambdabot> Local time for Jafet is Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:08:05 +1000
02:08:17 <wob_jonas> Nah, astronomy wasn't invented by anyone we know about, because it's older than history. Even the ancient people have noticed that there are different class of objects follow different rules, which is why there are multiple natural sciences:
02:09:44 <wob_jonas> astronomy for celestial objects, which clearly don't behave like anything on earth; physics for inanimate objects on earth; biology for living beings on earth, which clearly behave differently from the inanimate; psychology studying white humans who have a soul and thus clearly aren't related to dumb animals at all; and sociology for crowds which a
02:09:44 <wob_jonas> re clearly more dumb than any individual human.
02:12:11 <wob_jonas> that classification stood for a long time, until Newton discovered that celestial objects might perhaps actually follow the same physics as objects on earth
02:12:43 <wob_jonas> eventually all the natural sciences got mixed up and a lot of boundary sciences got created
02:13:09 <wob_jonas> like astrophysics and biochemistry and xenobiology
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02:18:19 <Jafet> `le/rn milky way//The Milky Way is the astrointestinal tract through which our own planet is ruminated. Recently discovered alternatives, like Andromeda and M81, offer hope for lactose-intolerant astronomers.
02:18:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'milky way': The Milky Way is the astrointestinal tract through which our own planet is ruminated. Recently discovered alternatives, like Andromeda and M81, offer hope for lactose-intolerant astronomers.
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02:18:50 <shachaf> fizzie: do you like mölkky twh
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02:20:37 <shachaf> It's surprising that people have been studying deuterium for thousands of years.
02:22:00 <HackEgo> A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
02:22:31 <HackEgo> gentlemanometer? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:46:41 <zzo38> Example of this program for telling the current Sun sign: swe.format(swe.calc(swe.planet.Sun).lon,{type:"S"}) It is a shorter code compared to the C API to do the same things.
02:47:15 <zzo38> (Currently the Sun sign is Cancer.)
02:49:05 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ok, but it's more interesting to be able to tell information at some time in the past or future, not just now.
02:50:15 <zzo38> You can do that too; the second argument to swe.calc is an option object (you can specify {} to use the defaults), and the third argument is the time that you want to know it for; the document I linked mentions that (if it isn't clear from that document, tell me how I can improve it)
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06:57:56 <izabera> can you apply the pumping lemma to wang tiles?
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07:13:32 <shachaf> I don't know how a 2D pumping lemma would work, but aren't they Turing-complete anyway? Do you expect it to work?
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08:13:36 <int-e> This question reminds me of the quadrant phenomenon for finite sets of wang tiles (if you can tile a quadrant then you can tile the whole plane).
08:17:33 <int-e> Anyway, no useful pumping (the only contexts that you could pump are infinite (e.g., parallel lines), so you're not guaranteed to find a repetition.)
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14:54:37 <HackEgo> olist 1083: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:06:48 <HackEgo> [U+29D4 TIMES WITH LEFT HALF BLACK]
17:15:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> How many nats to a gnat? <-- gnine
17:16:09 <oerjan> because gnone seemed a bit small hth
17:20:37 <\oren\> hmm but what sort of operations can you perform on a nat?
17:21:37 <oerjan> all the operations succ
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17:33:06 <quintopia> @tell boily just bought two copies of polygod let's play
18:07:02 <HackEgo> Astronomy is the study of stars, such as Julia Child and Gordon Ramsay, typically through long-distance viewing devices. Despite the name, it does not involve the study of the astrointestinal tract.
18:07:40 <oerjan> i think the g's have been torn loose and are now roaming random words.
18:08:50 <oerjan> spreading into foreign glands
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18:11:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's surprising that people have been studying deuterium for thousands of years. <-- * oerjan is surprised
18:13:07 <oerjan> also a tingy bit skeptical
18:13:47 <shachaf> oerjan: well there's a bible book about deuteronomy hth
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18:34:30 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm not sure I understand this hash table on untrusted medium situation.
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20:53:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52442&oldid=52416 * ZekNikZ * (+200)
20:53:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glava]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52443 * ZekNikZ * (+8241) Created page with "<h1>Glava</h1> <p><em>Glava</em> is an [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric programming language]], built on top of a [https://go.java/index.html?intcmp=gojava-banner-jav..."
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20:57:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52444&oldid=52443 * ZekNikZ * (+140)
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21:02:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52445&oldid=52444 * ZekNikZ * (+417)
21:02:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52446&oldid=52445 * ZekNikZ * (+1)
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21:12:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52447&oldid=52446 * ZekNikZ * (+185)
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21:20:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52448&oldid=52423 * ZekNikZ * (+12)
21:28:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52449&oldid=52447 * ZekNikZ * (+96)
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23:20:54 <lambdabot> quintopia said 5h 47m 47s ago: just bought two copies of polygod let's play
23:20:55 <HackEgo> 1/2:real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download//Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there. \ latin//LATINA EST SVBLIMISSIMA LINGVA MVNDI \ space elevator//Like the shorter and more familiar strings of stringed musical instruments, the cable of a space elevator h
23:21:27 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA! !
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23:49:28 <HackEgo> 2/2:as a natural resonant frequency. \ hðh//hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times. \ mpiler//An mpiler takes an executable file and nverts it to readable form.
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00:26:30 <Warriga_l> So I've decided to create my own programming language, because I don't like any of the existing ones enough.
00:26:57 <Warriga_l> I'm going to try to give it as few features as possible.
00:29:31 <Warriga_l> I think the code block syntax is going to be pretty much Smalltalk's. Just a slightly different syntax.
00:30:39 <Warriga_l> The big question is, what does "x y" mean?
00:31:07 <Warriga_l> Does it mean "apply the value 'x' to the value 'y'"? Does it mean "send the message 'y' to the value 'x'"?
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00:34:04 <Warriga_l> A sequence of juxtaposed things is going to be a "message send". The name of the message consists of all the capitalized words in the sequence, with underscores or something stuck in for any blanks, like...
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00:35:31 <Warriga_l> The expression "He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone" sends the message "He _ Judges _ Will _" to the recipient "has made", with arguments "dependent on his" and "alone".
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00:41:12 <Warriga_l> Here's an idea. The message sending syntax is exactly that of Smalltalk.
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01:42:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LyricLy * New user account
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01:55:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52450&oldid=52442 * LyricLy * (+331)
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01:55:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LyricLy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52451 * LyricLy * (+23) Created page with "Oh, well. Hello, there."
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04:47:09 <\oren\> NL on reaction wheels: "It's like an aeronautical fidget spinner"
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05:11:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52452 * LyricLy * (+6266) Created page with "'''Ly''' is a [[Push-down_automaton|stack-based]] esoteric programming language inspired by [[Fish|><>]] created by [[User:LyricLy]] in 2017. ==Concepts== Ly is a stack-base..."
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06:02:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CallowaySutton * New user account
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06:08:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52453&oldid=52452 * LyricLy * (+225)
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06:18:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52454&oldid=52450 * CallowaySutton * (+335) wow this is like a wall of names
06:18:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eternity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52455&oldid=46864 * CallowaySutton * (+154) I was bored so I made a joke interpreter (nothing works except the sample program)
06:19:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52456&oldid=52455 * CallowaySutton * (+0)
06:21:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CallowaySutton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52457 * CallowaySutton * (+421) Created page with "== '''Welcome to my User page''' == === What do I do here? === Well great question, in short, I make interpreters for the joke languages that don't entirely "Work" and also to..."
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06:24:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52458&oldid=52453 * LyricLy * (+0)
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09:12:20 * int-e wonders how old http://qdb.us/310173 is
09:12:31 <HackEgo> 104) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. \ 113) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it p
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09:19:20 <fizzie> (Well, that's how old the quote is, I can't tell if that's when it was added to qdb.us.)
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10:27:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52459&oldid=52458 * LyricLy * (+187)
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19:59:27 <\oren\> this is the best argument for glass being solid I've ever heard
19:59:32 <\oren\> "If glass flows at a rate that allows changes to be seen with the naked eye after centuries, then the effect should be noticeable in antique telescopes. Any slight deformation in the antique telescopic lenses would lead to a dramatic decrease in optical performance, a phenomenon that is not observed"
20:02:34 <imode> glass is a material that has several states, just like water.
20:02:51 <imode> so it can be a solid or a liquid.
20:03:19 <imode> much like ice that never thaws on some planets, the state of the environment matters.
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20:06:21 <\oren\> imode: right but glass is a solid at normal temperatures
20:06:37 <\oren\> you have to heat it up to melt it
20:07:05 <imode> normal temperatures for this planet.
20:07:19 <imode> which is not what I would call normal throughout all of physics. :P
20:07:51 <imode> we live in a pretty mild gradient of temperatures all things considered. the rest of the universe is pretty extreme, so I wouldn't call us normal.
20:09:20 <int-e> normality tends to be anthropocentric
20:09:44 <imode> if you define it with us in mind, sure.
20:10:16 <int-e> just try thinking alien thoughts and report back
20:10:36 <imode> don't need to, I have alex jones for that. :P
20:11:12 <fizzie> 273.15 K is the standard temperature, IUPAC says so.
20:11:23 <fizzie> They've got an impressive acronym, they're probably right.
20:13:16 <imode> IUPAC sounds like a moving/storage company.
20:13:52 <\oren\> or a sleazy political campaign financier
20:15:47 <int-e> International Union of Poopyheads, Addlepates and Cretins
20:16:27 <imode> you went a long way for the A in that acronym and I just wanted you to know that I appreciate that.
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20:17:13 <int-e> It seems to be a fun word.
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20:18:17 <int-e> Or two words, apparently.
20:21:42 <\oren\> Itchy Underpants Political Action Committee
20:22:28 <imode> doing important work.
20:22:35 <Jafet> I doubted the correctness of that sentence, and saw that it is referenced to john baez's website, so I checked
20:22:48 <Jafet> turns out the cited webpage contradicts the sentence that cites it
20:23:45 <Jafet> “Sometimes people say that good evidence that glass does not flow is provided by telescope lenses which after 150 years still maintain excellent optical qualities. They would be spoiled by the slightest deformation. In fact, optical glass is usually not the same as the glass used in windows and bottles.”
20:24:32 <Hoolootwo> for the oldest telescopes, that's probably not true, I think
20:28:22 <int-e> "In the world of viscosity, things can get rather sticky." http://www.cmog.org/article/does-glass-flow
20:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> my favourite glass fact is that it thermodynamically does not have a well-defined temperature
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22:19:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bluswimmer * New user account
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22:29:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52460&oldid=52454 * Bluswimmer * (+200) /* Introductions */
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22:37:03 <Slereah> Anyone got an idea of how to implement typeless lambdas in C#?
22:37:31 <Slereah> Oh wait, I think I found it
22:37:39 <Slereah> seems to be Func <object , Func <object , object >
22:40:18 <izabera> your < > aren't even balanced
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22:41:25 <Slereah> What I want to do is something of the type lambda i = x => x;
22:41:40 <Slereah> Func<Object, Object> maybe?
22:42:10 <Slereah> But then do I need to put an "ultimate" object at the end?
22:42:58 <Slereah> Also that one doesn't work for x => x(x)
22:44:53 <Slereah> I tried Func<Func, Func> but C# starts fussing that there's no arguments
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22:58:14 <HackEgo> 1/3:welcome.fi//Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.) \ quoteformat//quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all el
22:58:39 <HackEgo> 2/3:isions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two. \ nm//nm means "no minotaur" hth \ phantom_______hoover//It doesn't get any better than this. \ false//false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga. It's also not t
22:59:10 <HackEgo> 7274:2016-03-25 <oerjän> learn nm means "no minotaur" hth
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22:59:39 <shachaf> `slwd nm//s/no/nondeterministic/
22:59:41 <HackEgo> nm//nm means "nondeterministic minotaur" hth
23:00:20 <Slereah> Gotta define it as delegates and then do some casting of the functions
23:00:37 <shachaf> Solving a labyrinth is very easy for a nondeterministic minotaur.
23:02:35 <boily> slime mold minotaur: solves all the paths at the same time.
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23:08:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Casino]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52461 * Bluswimmer * (+2095) Created page with "'''Casino''' is a cell based [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric programming language]] that utilizes a psuedo random number generator to determine which command will be..."
23:09:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bluswimmer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52462 * Bluswimmer * (+68) Created page with "Hi. I created the language [[Casino]], and nothing else of interest."
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23:21:16 <HackEgo> 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 11) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you kno
23:25:39 <boily> the other ! was me being surprised, like a metal gear mook.
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23:53:19 <boily> it is being wanted ^^
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00:22:59 <HackEgo> 1/1:tomfoolery//tomfoolery is always factually inaccurate. always. \ mk//Everything's better with `mk. \ Я//Я is the 9th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet \ ping//Ping is a Peking Duck H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout. \ alogl//ALOGL is a logarithmic language.
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00:32:43 * oerjan slightly tempted to revert, although not many people use `tomfoolery
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01:24:31 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator. He is flooded by thundercats and thunderdogs. He is the temporal antipode of boily despite living on the same continent.
01:24:57 <HackEgo> “Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
01:25:38 <boily> `slwd boily//s/doctor,/doctor, a Quintopial antipodist,/
01:25:39 <HackEgo> boily//“Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps k
01:26:12 <boily> `slwd boily//s/, apparently involving cookie dealing//
01:26:13 <HackEgo> boily//“Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
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01:30:49 * boily lightly, acupuncturically mapoles hppavilion[1]
01:32:45 <boily> eille! no knifing, unless for cooking!
01:32:51 <boily> and no, I'm not edible, only sane.
01:40:50 <shachaf> I read in a book that "sane" means "safe".
01:41:39 <boily> hmm... I'd guess I'm pretty much safe?
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01:47:21 <quintopia> does my short wisdom entry indicate that i am less fully vested here than others?
01:47:53 <ais523> IMO, the best thing to do with wisdom is ignore it
01:48:37 <ais523> `addquote <ais523> IMO, the best thing to do with wisdom is ignore it
01:48:38 <HackEgo> 1314) <ais523> IMO, the best thing to do with wisdom is ignore it
01:48:48 <ais523> although don't do it again now that it's been done once
01:48:58 <ais523> also, I didn't realise how profound it was until I saw it in quote form
01:49:00 <quintopia> yeah but you know i'll forget it by the time i think to do it again
01:49:20 <oerjan> ais523 is not a connoiseur of wisdom.
01:49:35 <oerjan> and no longer of PPCG, it seems. chopping off some hobbies?
01:49:38 <HackEgo> 485) <elliott> Deewiant: How do you go through life without seeing at least one gaping anus, that's what I want to know
01:49:44 <ais523> that's not the one I wanted
01:49:51 <HackEgo> 133) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW \ 314) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand. \ 495) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to peo
01:49:58 <HackEgo> 495) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
01:50:02 <ais523> there, that's the one I wanted
01:50:14 <ais523> oerjan: I really /really/ hate Stack Exchange
01:50:30 <ais523> I kind-of reluctantly moved there because that's where the codegolfing was
01:50:41 <quintopia> that's pretty hilarious. too bad i missed that
01:50:45 <ais523> and although PPCG's community is great, Stack Exchange is sufficiently bad that I was starting to resent code golf by association
01:50:50 <oerjan> . o O ( is chopping off hobbies a hydra-like activity? )
01:51:12 <ais523> I wasn't enjoying myself at all, it was something of negative addiction cycle towards the end
01:51:27 <ais523> quintopia: the incentives are all wrong
01:51:49 <ais523> in particular, the fact that answers with more votes have more visibility, thus more votes, means that getting a vote lead early is the main thing that controls how much reputation you'll get
01:51:55 <ais523> and the site puts huge emphasis on reputation
01:52:04 <ais523> then when you actually get it, it actually makes the site experience worse rather than better
01:52:14 <oerjan> <ais523> that's not the one I wanted <-- or anyone, really.
01:52:53 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> Deewiant: How do you go through life without seeing at least one gaping anus, that's what I want to know
01:53:06 <quintopia> well, i mostly ignore the parts of SE outside PPCG, where those things mostly don't apply
01:54:07 <ais523> it applies even on PPCG, because if you go to the people who can actually change the site software to, e.g., report a bug that disproportionately affects PPCG
01:54:11 <ais523> they just tell you you're using the site wrong
01:54:49 <quintopia> well, no one ever claimed SE was well-supported :P
01:55:24 <ais523> this is a particularly bad example of an SE bug that should be trivial to fix (given that it just involves removing a misfeature), and frequently affects newbies at PPCG: https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/276269
01:56:16 <ais523> but in general, none of the features of the Stack Exchange software actually work for their intended purpose (this is particularly noticeable at PPCG but true elsewhere, too)
01:56:30 <ais523> when a feature does turn out to be useful, it's because it's being used in a way contrary to the official recommendations
01:58:52 <quintopia> i have thought on many occasions that moving the PPCG community to more code golf friendly software (that still keeps what /does/ work well at SE) would improve the community
01:59:55 <ais523> the top two features that PPCG has and most golf sites don't have are: a) the ability to add an explanation along with the code; b) an ability to comment on other people's code
02:00:12 <ais523> that way, it's actually possible to have some sort of workable communication between the people golfing and the people appreciating the results
02:00:32 <quintopia> and c) the ability to redirect comment threads to group chats
02:00:39 <ais523> note that the use of SE's comment system for b) is actually banned according to the comment policy but everyone ignores that
02:00:51 <ais523> quintopia: no, that does more harm than good in several ways the way it's currently implemented
02:01:18 <ais523> and also requires subsequent moderator action in 90% of the cases where it's triggered, either intentionally or accidentally
02:01:36 <quintopia> i've only seen it done intentionally
02:01:40 <ais523> if I'm having a productive conversation about improving a post, directing it to chat is probably a mistake, because you want it attached to the post (and can clean it up later)
02:02:00 <ais523> OTOH, if it's a case where one person is being unreasonable and other people are arguing with them, the conversation is probably better off not happening at all
02:02:04 <quintopia> yeah, having (hidden) attached comment threads would be a better solution
02:02:24 <quintopia> but i like the idea of being able to coerce people into live chats somehow
02:02:52 <quintopia> at the least, the ability to link to a live chat that opens in the browser
02:03:01 <ais523> yes, ability to link to chat is very helpful
02:04:31 <ais523> but just doing it with an actual regular link is much better than the autolink
02:04:49 <ais523> in fact, the autolink works more than once and IIRC creates a new chat room each time
02:05:24 <quintopia> if we take those few features, add anagolf like automatic code testing and scoring, add en /entire forum/ for challenge sandboxing instead of one stupid overgrown thread...
02:05:40 <quintopia> i didn't know there was an autolink
02:05:49 <quintopia> like i said, i've only ever seen it done intentionally
02:07:53 <ais523> quintopia: it comes up every time you try to add a comment
02:08:20 <ais523> also the created chat room has no owners and no way to add any, which is a problem in its own right (and there's a trivial solution, making it the OP of the relevant post, that hasn't been implemented)
02:13:33 <ais523> that said, I have had thoughts about what an optimal golfing site would look like
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02:41:23 <doesthiswork> could you document what the optimal golfing site would look like?
02:41:58 <oerjan> . o O ( just keep it as brief as possible )
02:42:45 <ais523> first, and most importantly, you have some sort of system to keep out spambots
02:43:20 <ais523> ideally, this should be requiring actual golf entries to recently-posted problems to be submitted that are at least decently competitive
02:43:34 <ais523> as that proves that people understand what the site is about, and will also help repel human-aided spambot farms
02:44:20 <ais523> once you're sure that there's no sort of automated attack going on, that then allows you to let people express opinions without worrying about the system being flooded
02:44:40 <ais523> then, you let people write up golfing problems, with some sort of "automatic marking"
02:45:08 <ais523> I think you express the specification in the form of a set of possible inputs (which could be infinite), and a program (that isn't necessarily golfed, and in fact probably shouldn't be, i.e. it should be as clear as possible)
02:45:46 <ais523> then an answer is correct if it gives the same answers as the program (tested on some manually given test cases + some randomly selected ones); you have a recheck feature which allows people to give counterexamples to other people's programs
02:46:27 <ais523> all submissions to a problem, and all problems, should be categorisable with tags, and people should be able to tag each other's answers
02:46:54 <ais523> and people should be able to attach commentary to problems and submissions (whether it's explanations, feedback, or something else; keep it decently freeform)
03:05:01 <ais523> I think there should be some way to improve problems after they're posted, perhaps by marking the problem as provisional for a set period, and allowing wiki-style edits to it (which invalidate any answers that violate the new spec)
03:06:57 <ais523> incidentally, when I left PPCG, I was sent a number of messages by Stack Exchange staff that were worded to look like they were concerned about my reasons for leaving, but which (from the way they were worded) were clearly written without actually having read my stated reasons
03:07:26 <ais523> so I'm assuming they were just boilerplate misleadingly written to imply that they cared about what people thought about the site
03:12:06 <ais523> meanwhile, the actual PPCG community listened to my concerns (and largely agreed with them), but I think they're powerless to fix the fundamental issues with the site software
03:14:06 <ais523> oh, one other thing is related to I/O; I think each challenge would specify the inputs and outputs using a well-known format (probably JSON), but each language would have a "default boilerplate" that went and decoded/encoded the JSON into whatever form was most convenient for the language, and that doesn't count against the byte count
03:14:29 <ais523> so in most cases, what you'd actually submit would be a function body, or the language's closest equivalent to that
03:15:48 <ais523> this would end all the arguments that you get in individual questions about which I/O formats are acceptable, and change them into a more centralised question about which I/O formats are most suitable for each given language
03:15:54 <ais523> which only has to be argued once per language, not once per challenge
03:17:12 <ais523> oh, for non-golf challenges, you should also have the option of specifying a scoring function
03:17:35 <ais523> another useful feature (which no golfing site has yet that I'm aware of) would be an auto-encoding feature, where you enter your program in whatever encoding is most convenient for working on the program
03:17:46 <ais523> but the site automatically works out the best possible encoding of that that works in the language
03:18:13 <ais523> for example, you could type Jelly using Unicode (which is normally easier), but have that automatically transcoded to Jelly's character set (which is more compact in terms of the number of octets needed)
03:22:11 <ais523> something I'm torn on is efficiency: should we require the answers to run within, say, a factor of 10 of the model answer? one approach I see is separate leaderboards for answers that do and answers that don't
03:22:46 <ais523> meaning that there are two golf competitions at once (the shortest answer, and the shortest answer that uses an algorithm that isn't considerably slower than that of the model answer)
03:29:04 <doesthiswork> is it possible to dispute a tag on someone's answer?
03:31:31 <ais523> I have a system in mind where tags are voted up and down, but with hysteresis
03:31:53 <ais523> something like "a score of +3 for a tag adds it, a score of -3 removes it, votes change the score by 1 point, the OP sets the original status"
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03:33:54 <doesthiswork> how do you express the infinite set of inputs?
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05:22:59 <Jafet> do you know what killer feature the stackexchange site has over yours
05:24:31 <HackEgo> 801) <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX
05:25:17 <Jafet> (it didn't, sadly)
05:25:20 <HackEgo> 1/1:801) <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX \ 1020) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks \ 1243) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
05:25:49 <shachaf> Are there any good RTS games lately?
05:26:57 <Jafet> does eu4 qualify as an rts?
05:28:36 <shachaf> I don't know eu4. What is wps?
05:33:18 <Jafet> “well played sir”; wp is “with pause” though
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05:36:01 <Jafet> also I don't know how the pausing works in multiplayer
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06:38:16 <ais523> Jafet: most real-time strategy games are with-pause in single player but not multiplayer
06:44:56 <Jafet> well, with-pause usually implies that you can perform game actions during the pause
06:45:18 <Jafet> (other than “save”, “load”, and “flee to windows“)
06:47:16 <Jafet> anyway, videos of eu4 show that pausing in multiplayer is possible
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07:01:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52463&oldid=52459 * LyricLy * (+159)
07:03:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52464&oldid=52463 * LyricLy * (+148)
07:03:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52465&oldid=52464 * LyricLy * (+8)
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07:20:25 <HackEgo> 1/2:comonad//Comonads are just monads in the dual category. They are hard to get into. \ third law of thermodynamics//The third law of thermodynamics says that Taneb cannot reach absolute zero. \ antarctica//There's no such country as Antarctica. \ thyme//Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano. \ gaszpacho//gaszpacho is a polish
07:20:28 <HackEgo> 2/2:soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
07:20:45 <shachaf> Are comonads really that hard to get into?
07:20:58 <shachaf> I was into comonads before they were ol.
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10:26:07 <Jafet> making it is easy, like monoids
10:29:02 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with single objects.
10:29:42 <shachaf> all the single objects / all the single objects
10:29:56 <shachaf> What kind of joke is like comonoids?
11:05:59 <Cale> shachaf: There's usually only one joke of that sort up to isomorphism anyway, so nobody makes it.
11:07:55 <doesthiswork> I think the channel should publish a coffee-table joke book
11:09:09 <doesthiswork> because even though that joke was very simple, it made me laugh
11:14:21 <shachaf> Cale: There's only one complete ordered field up to isomorphism, but people keep making it.
11:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52466&oldid=52018 * Challenger5 * (+30)
11:15:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52467&oldid=52466 * Challenger5 * (+1)
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15:57:16 <wob_jonas> Could someone please point me to that article about how to achieve mutable state during compile time in C++ by using friend function declarations in template class definition bodies?
15:57:31 <wob_jonas> I'm trying to use it for eso purposes only, not for production stuff, I swear
16:00:07 <wob_jonas> I can find a lot of references to that stuff, but not the original article that explains the trick.
16:00:14 <wob_jonas> Oh well, I might be able to use those derivatives.
16:07:19 <wob_jonas> found it: https://web.archive.org/web/20161217033223/http://b.atch.se/posts/non-constant-constant-expressions/
16:14:18 <Jafet> trying to find a use, you mean?
16:15:44 <wob_jonas> no, I have a potential eso-use already (which might or might not actually work, I have to understand more about C++ to figure out), I'm trying to learn how the technique works now
16:16:19 <wob_jonas> also apparently there are followup blog posts, but they're hard to find, since I can access the original blog post only through archive.com too
16:17:41 <wob_jonas> https://web.archive.org/web/20161217232535/http://b.atch.se/posts/constexpr-counter/ is the second part I beleive
16:17:44 <wob_jonas> but I'm not sure if there's a third part
16:18:17 <wob_jonas> https://web.archive.org/web/20161217033218/http://b.atch.se:80/posts/constexpr-meta-container/ is the third one
16:19:28 <wob_jonas> and it says "The upcoming post, in this series, will talk about other techniques [... than] the friend-injection technique [...], how the Standard could potentially make the techniques (plural) ill-formed, and the implications of such potential outcome."
16:27:29 <wob_jonas> in fact, I think I need only a little crumb of that technique
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17:19:05 <doesthiswork> I just got paid $20 to talk about fanfiction forums for an hour
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17:45:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mutable compile-time state in C++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52468 * B jonas * (+1139) Created page with "In C++, constexpr functions are supposed to be pure functions in the Haskell sense: deterministic (the return value is a mathematical function of the arguments) and without si..."
17:51:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mutable compile-time state in C++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52469&oldid=52468 * B jonas * (+50)
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18:20:22 <Jafet> “Disclaimer: The technique described in this post is primarily meant as "just another clever hack, diving into the dark corners of C++".” — isn't this half of what c++ is
18:21:22 <shachaf> You are in a maze of dark little corners, all different.
18:21:44 <shachaf> What sort of architectural style maximizes corners?
18:21:44 <Jafet> if wg21 wasn't going to nuke it, I could have seen meta_list.hpp coming to your local boost library this autumn
18:24:13 <Jafet> I've heard that the hilbert hotel has lots of corners, despite fitting snugly in a unit square
18:24:30 <Jafet> that must be how they get an infinite number of rooms in
18:24:43 <shachaf> I thought it had infinite volume?
18:25:36 <Jafet> might have been a four-dimensional square
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18:39:43 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
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19:14:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hydrogenn * New user account
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19:19:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52470&oldid=52460 * Hydrogenn * (+181) Added my signature.
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19:56:24 <HackEgo> 504) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want.
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20:01:10 <HackEgo> frenemy:Frenemy is the relationship between Kirby and king Dee Dee. \ schaf:"Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf. \ vi:vi is in a relationship with emacs.
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20:14:30 <Jafet> are they frenemies?
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20:20:19 <\oren\> warning: This file includes at least one deprecated or antiquated header which may be removed without further notice at a future date. Please use a non-deprecated interface with equivalent functionality instead. For a listing of replacement headers and interfaces, consult the file backward_warning.h. To disable this warning use -Wno-deprecated.
20:21:18 <\oren\> how in the fuk is a hash map deprecated
20:21:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52471 * Hydrogenn * (+4813) Added BitP
20:23:47 <int-e> <hash_map> is deprecated and will be REMOVED. Please use <unordered_map>
20:25:00 <\oren\> GAH, they just renamed it HWY!
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20:26:33 <\oren\> if it doesn't have to be a hash then why does unordered_map still have an hash_function () method in it!?!?!?
20:26:55 <int-e> not quite; from what I can see, hash_map was never standard C++
20:27:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52472&oldid=52471 * Hydrogenn * (+255)
20:27:25 <int-e> and unordered_map *is* a hashtable, by its description
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20:27:50 <\oren\> it's a STUPID name made by AHOLES
20:28:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52473&oldid=52472 * Hydrogenn * (-1) Fixed the table
20:29:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52474&oldid=52473 * Hydrogenn * (+77)
20:29:32 <int-e> presumably what happened was that the C++ standards committee didn't like a few aspects of MS's implementation and then chose a different name so that code wouldn't just break.
20:29:49 <int-e> s/implementation/interface/
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20:46:57 <impomatic> Hmmm... how fast would a typical bit-by-bit square root algorithm be in big-O? Like this https://pastebin.com/22xXieff
20:47:31 <impomatic> O(n) I assume, because the number of iterations is proportional to the number of bits?
20:50:22 <wob_jonas> I'll try to write an implementation for the esolang I'm making
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21:34:28 <Slereah__> Ten years ago I did a python interpreter for one of my esolang
21:34:40 <Slereah__> I really wish I left comments and used better variables
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22:09:12 <HackEgo> 1/2:advertisement//Advertisement starts: have you heard about this hip and froopy 'net place called #esoteric? It is on freenode. Brought to you by The Board of Timeskewed Advertiesements. \ cloud//The cloud is a server Blackhat guy runs, connected to the internet through a cable modem. There's a lot of caching. Cloud is also the shape of clouds. \
22:09:15 <HackEgo> 2/2: phở//Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam. \ java//Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures. \ chthonic//Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to.
22:11:19 <HackEgo> 8474:2016-06-13 <oerjän> sled wisdom/java//s/./J/;s/$/./ \ 5604:2015-06-17 <coppr̈o> learn java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
22:11:56 <shachaf> alercah: Which misfeatures does Java have?
22:12:50 <int-e> what does alercah have to do with coppro, hmm.
22:13:36 <int-e> alercah: last 5 lines
22:13:57 <alercah> oh I missed the quote line
22:14:26 <alercah> - everything needs to be in a class
22:15:01 <shachaf> - covariant mutable arrays
22:15:04 <int-e> shachaf: how about the limitation of string constants to 64k bytes UTF-8..., objects to 64k methods, methods to 64kb bytecode...
22:15:14 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg
22:15:41 <shachaf> int-e: Java string constants are in UTF-8? I thought everything was UTF-16.
22:16:26 <int-e> yes, they're UTF-8
22:17:10 <int-e> the 64kb bytecode thing may seem harmless until you realize that when you declare a large constant array, you actually get a final array variable plus bytecode that fills in the elements one by one.
22:18:09 <int-e> And none of this will ever change because that would break all "bytecode enhancers" in existence :P
22:18:38 <int-e> So... in a way... custom classloaders are a misfeature because they've been abused quite terribly.
22:21:04 <int-e> Anyway, I have not seriously touched Java in the last 20 years (though I have seen glimpses of language improvements like generics and other additions like enums) ... I would complain about the awful standard library but this may have improved.
22:21:26 <int-e> hmm, 20 is a bit too high, make that 18
22:21:44 <alercah> type erasure in generics is another great one
22:22:00 <int-e> oh misfeature, yes it is...
22:22:36 <int-e> ...getting run-time type checks for something that the compiler *should* have checked already.
22:22:49 <alercah> what run-time type checks?
22:22:58 <alercah> oh when you extract things, yes
22:23:09 <int-e> when a generic container is compiled you get a compiler of obects
22:24:17 <int-e> and there's no way type safety can be ensured on the bytecode level despite the compiler having checked the types... so... there still has to be a runtime check.
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22:42:45 <tswett> I want to talk about theories, doctrines, and logics.
22:43:23 <tswett> The motivating example here is that the concept of a finite limit category is "self-supporting", in a particular way.
22:43:57 <tswett> The axioms defining the concept "finite limit category" are also a presentation of a particular finite limit category.
22:44:26 <tswett> This is not true of, say, the concept of a group.
22:44:43 <tswett> The axioms defining the concept "group" are a presentation of a finite product category, but they are not a presentation of a group.
22:46:48 <tswett> So, I'm going to use the word "variety" to mean "a type of algebraic structure". So, for example, groups are a variety, categories are a variety, FLCs are a variety.
22:47:49 <tswett> Actually, I'm going to call that a "theory" instead. Sorry for the bait-and-switch.
22:47:56 <tswett> Groups are a theory, categories are a theory, FLCs are a theory.
22:48:34 <tswett> Each theory has a corresponding concept of a "presentation": groups have presentations, categories have presentations, FLCs have presentations, blah blah blah.
22:48:47 <tswett> A presentation is a collection of generators.
22:50:48 <tswett> Now, each theory has a collection of axioms. The axioms, I guess, have some influence over what the presentations can look like.
22:51:07 <tswett> You can't take a presentation of a category and treat it as being a presentation of a group.
22:51:15 <tswett> And then, we have the kicker...
22:51:29 <tswett> Theories are presentations, and their axioms are their generators.
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22:51:54 <tswett> Any presentation, of course, belongs to another theory.
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22:52:43 <tswett> So, the theory of groups is a presentation belonging to the theory of FPCs.
22:52:58 <tswett> The theory of FPCs is a presentation belonging to the theory of FLCs. The theory of FLCs is a presentation belonging to the theory of FLCs.
22:53:11 <tswett> And we've found a fixed point. :D
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22:54:59 <tswett> On nLab, they call the "theory of a theory" a doctrine.
22:55:16 <tswett> How long can I keep the monologue going before someone else speaks? :D
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23:06:45 <tswett> Let me compare the theory of groups to the theory of real numbers.
23:07:25 <tswett> The theory of groups has axioms such as "there exists an 'identity' element e" and "the operation is associative".
23:08:15 <tswett> These axioms are the generators of a finite product category.
23:08:57 <tswett> The theory of real numbers has axioms such as "every non-empty, bounded set of numbers has a least upper bound".
23:09:07 <tswett> These axioms are axioms of second-order logic.
23:11:46 <tswett> The theory of groups has an interesting property. Namely, every presentation satisfying the theory of groups (every group presentation) has models.
23:11:59 <tswett> In fact, every group presentation defines one particular model.
23:12:50 <tswett> Which we just call the group presented by that presentation.
23:13:21 <tswett> It's not the *only* model consistent with the presentation, though.
23:14:06 <tswett> What it is, is... let me think, here.
23:14:30 <tswett> There's a category of groups (aka the category of models of the theory of groups).
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23:15:34 <tswett> Suppose I have some particular group presentation, P.
23:15:53 <tswett> Then there's also a category of groups-which-are-consistent-with-P.
23:19:45 <tswett> The special property, I think, is that the category of groups-consistent-with-P is always a coslice category of the category of groups.
23:21:57 <tswett> And the base object of this category is the "group presented by P".
23:22:45 <tswett> Now, when I said "theory of real numbers", I really should have said "theory of real number systems", because its models are real number systems, not individual real numbers.
23:24:29 <tswett> The theory of real number systems does *not* have that neat little property where every presentation defines a coslice category of models.
23:25:06 <tswett> Indeed, although there are lots of different groups, I think there's generally considered to be only *one* model of the theory of real number systems.
23:25:11 <tswett> Namely: the real numbers.
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23:36:31 <tswett> Now, we all know what a "presentation of a group" is.
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23:37:33 <tswett> It's a thing declaring the existence of various elements, and equations that hold between them.
23:37:40 <tswett> What is a "presentation of a real number system"?
23:38:16 <tswett> It's a thing declaring the existence of various numbers, and...?
23:40:15 <tswett> I mean, I guess the words "of a" are no longer relevant here, since a presentation no longer defines a real number system.
23:40:25 <tswett> Let's call it a... "presentation for real number systems" instead?
23:40:46 <tswett> This is definitely a presentation for real number systems: "numbers x, y, z such that x + y = z."
23:40:53 <tswett> That presentation has infinitely many models.
23:41:09 <tswett> This is another one: "a number x such that x + x = x * x." That one has exactly 2 models.
23:41:23 <tswett> And another one: "a number i such that i * i = -1." That one has no models.
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23:43:49 <tswett> How about "a number x such that x = pi"? Can you use pi in a presentation for real number systems?
23:49:49 <tswett> Presentations for a theory are always extensions of the theory, but the converse isn't true.
23:51:47 <tswett> You can extend the axioms for a group by saying that there exists an element x. This extension is also a presentation, and it presents the infinite cyclic group.
23:52:03 <tswett> The trivial extension, which adds no axioms, is also a presentation. It presents the trivial group.
23:52:28 <tswett> You can also extend the axioms for a group by saying that the operation is commutative. This extension is not a presentation.
23:53:13 <tswett> Hmmmmm. I've got some gears turning, here.
23:54:36 <tswett> Consider the category of "finite limit theories" (finitely generated finite limit categories, seen as "theories").
23:55:26 <tswett> Theories are objects in this category.
23:56:09 <tswett> Presentations for theories are *also* objects in this category... but of a very constrained type.
23:57:02 <tswett> If I have a presentation for a theory T, then it is necessary (but not sufficient) that there exists another theory P and an "inclusion" arrow T -> P.
23:57:18 <tswett> T is the original theory; P is the original theory plus all of the generators in the presentation.
23:58:56 <tswett> Every theory has a category of models; let's call it Mod(T).
00:01:00 <tswett> Since we're only considering finite limit theories, every theory also has a "free model", which is the initial object of Mod(T).
00:07:42 <tswett> Now, given any arrow T -> U, we're essentially saying every axiom in T can also be found in U, which means that every model of U will also work as a model of T...
00:08:14 <tswett> In other words, arrows T -> U produce functors Mod(U) -> Mod(T).
00:20:03 <tswett> So lemme consider an example!
00:20:35 <tswett> Let G be the theory of groups, and let PG be the theory of pointed groups (groups with a distinguished element).
00:21:01 <tswett> There's an arrow G -> PG (everything that can be done within a group can be done within a pointed group).
00:21:17 <tswett> And the resulting functor Mod(PG) -> Mod(G) (every pointed group is a group).
00:21:49 <tswett> All these model categories have "initial objects" or "trivial models". There is a trivial group, and there is a trivial pointed group.
00:21:55 <tswett> The trivial pointed group is also a group, of course.
00:22:02 <tswett> But it's not the trivial group; it's the infinite cyclic group.
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00:28:45 <tswett> Now, I (essentially) said earlier that not only is there a functor Mod(PG) -> Mod(G), but Mod(PG) is actually a coslice category of Mod(G).
00:29:17 <tswett> Not all theory extensions have that property.
00:29:50 <tswett> For example, if AbG is the theory of abelian groups, then we have the inclusion arrow G -> AbG, which generates the "forgetful" functor Mod(AbG) -> Mod(G).
00:30:19 <tswett> But that's not a coslice category, because the trivial abelian group is the trivial group.
00:31:17 <tswett> A pointed group is just a group equipped with a homomorphism out of the trivial pointed group.
00:31:33 <tswett> It is *not* the case that an abelian group is just a group equipped with a homomorphism out of the trivial abelian group.
00:34:27 <tswett> I get why certain axioms are allowed in a presentation, and certain ones are not.
00:35:06 <tswett> How come a group presentation is allowed to contain the axiom "there exists an element a with a^2 = e", but it is not allowed to contain the axiom "for all elements a and b, ab = ba"?
00:35:23 <tswett> Only the first axiom is preserved by homomorphisms.
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00:50:22 <alercah> I suspect because the latter doesn't provide a real quotient group
00:52:33 <tswett> What do you mean, doesn't provide a real quotient group?
00:53:36 <alercah> A presentation defines a group by quotient on the free group in however many generators
00:54:16 <alercah> so in order for an equation to be allowed, you have to be able to meaningfully turn it into a normal subgroup to quotient by
00:54:41 <tswett> The thing about the axiom "for all elements a and b, ab = ba" is that it's sensitive to what the elements are.
00:54:54 <alercah> but what subgroup is that even defining?
00:55:29 <tswett> Is it the... subgroup of all commutators?
00:55:57 <tswett> ATWP: "The commutator subgroup is important because it is the smallest normal subgroup such that the quotient group of the original group by this subgroup is abelian."
00:56:30 <HackEgo> According to Wikipedia, ATWP means nothing.
00:56:47 <tswett> `le/rn atwp/According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper".
00:56:48 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
00:56:56 <tswett> `le/rn atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper".
00:56:58 <HackEgo> Relearned 'atwp': According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper".
00:57:42 <alercah> tswett: huh so I checked, ab = ba is allowed
00:57:58 <alercah> on two generators it generates Z \times Z
00:58:14 <alercah> that makes sense, ab = ba ~ a^-1b^-1ab
00:58:29 <alercah> so not quite sure why I let you trick me into thinking it wasn't
00:58:40 <alercah> oh wait, "for all elements"
00:58:55 <alercah> uh let me think if I can come up with a good explanation
01:00:12 <alercah> I can't think of a trivial one, but if you look up the definition, it doesn't make sense
01:00:23 <tswett> The definition of "presentation of a group"?
01:01:19 <alercah> you can have an infinite set of equations
01:01:27 <alercah> so you can just include every equation of the form xy = yx
01:02:03 <tswett> But the definition of a group presentation doesn't allow you to do anything with universal quantifiers.
01:05:43 <tswett> Now here's the next big thing I'm wondering.
01:05:59 <tswett> Consider the concept of a category.
01:06:18 <tswett> What would you have to add to it, piece by piece, in order to bring it up to being equivalent to second-order logic?
01:06:35 <tswett> If you add a terminal object, now you have the equivalent of a "true" proposition.
01:06:44 <tswett> Add products, now you've got conjunction, too.
01:07:09 <tswett> Add an initial object and coproducts, that's "false" and disjunction.
01:07:36 <tswett> Make it cartesian closed, and now you've got implication.
01:07:46 <alercah> it allows an infinite set of words though
01:07:59 <alercah> so you can just use quantifiers to build the set
01:08:24 <tswett> Or, if you want to just write a presentation of some specific abelian group, it suffices to just say all the generators commute with each other.
01:11:36 <tswett> A cartesian closed category with finite sums is enough for propositional logic.
01:12:17 <tswett> What if I want predicate logic?
01:12:58 <tswett> If you want to do propositional logic in a category, you're probably seeing the objects as propositions.
01:13:45 <tswett> For predicate logic, now you need to look at objects as propositions *and* as domains that can be quantified over.
01:14:18 <tswett> And then a predicate is a morphism from a "domain" to a "proposition".
01:17:10 <tswett> A predicate is a morphism *into* a domain.
01:18:03 <tswett> Now, in predicate logic, you can do conjunction, disjunction, and implication between predicates, not just propositions.
01:19:47 <tswett> This means the category needs to have sums, products, and exponentials for morphisms, not just objects.
01:23:45 <tswett> For the initial object and coproducts, this is automatic.
01:24:32 <tswett> To have a cat satisfying an impossible property is impossible. To have a blue-or-green cat is to either have a blue cat or have a green cat.
01:24:58 <tswett> To have a cat satisfying a trivial property is not trivial; you must actually have a cat.
01:25:17 <tswett> And to have a blue-and-green cat is not to both have a blue cat and have a green cat; they must be the same cat.
01:27:24 <tswett> Anyway, this ends up meaning that for predicate, you need a *locally* cartesian closed category with finite sums.
01:28:32 <tswett> And, um, does quantification automatically end up working?
01:34:33 <oerjan> is this the curry-howard-lambek correspondence of system F
01:35:32 <tswett> I'm referencing this: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/relation+between+type+theory+and+category+theory
01:40:39 <tswett> So lemme see. There's this idea where a predicate is "encoded" as three things: its "total space" (a proposition which is considered equivalent to "exists x, P(x)"), its domain, and the proof of the implication from the former to the latter.
01:41:12 <tswett> So the predicate "the integer x is even" is encoded as...
01:41:36 <tswett> 1. a proposition considered equivalent to "exists x, x is even"--in other words, the set of even integers
01:41:42 <tswett> 2. the domain, which is the set of integers
01:41:53 <tswett> 3. the inclusion function from the set of even integers to the set of integers
01:41:57 <boily> hellørjan! sidling toward me? :D
01:42:15 <tswett> Don't mind me, I'm just using this channel as my personal notepad.
01:42:31 <tswett> It's great because my notepad automatically contains funny things other people say.
01:44:23 <oerjan> boheily! anywhere nowhere near a category vortex twh
01:44:53 <boily> categories are nice. I don't understand them, but they make nice graphs ^^
01:44:56 <tswett> So, sums are easy. How do you write "exists x, P(x) or Q(x)" in terms of "exists x, P(x)" and "exists x, Q(x)"?
01:45:09 <tswett> "(exists x, P(x)) or (exists x, Q(x))".
01:45:18 <tswett> Likewise, "exists x, false" is just "false".
01:46:08 <tswett> "exists x, P(x) and Q(x)" is the pullback of "exists x, P(x)" and "exists x, Q(x)".
01:46:17 <boily> tswellott. probably some manipulations involving sums-of-products or products-of-sums.
01:46:43 <oerjan> tswett: i really don't think you want "exists x," in there
01:47:00 <tswett> Note that I'm using "exists" to mean "dependent sum"...
01:47:24 <shachaf> tswelliott would be an odd individual
01:47:43 <tswett> So "there exists a 0-tuple" isn't equivalent to "there exists an integer", since the latter has infinitely many proofs and the former only has one.
01:48:13 <tswett> You seem upset about this.
01:49:47 <tswett> "The five lemma can be thought of as a combination of two other theorems, the four lemmas, which are dual to each other."
01:49:57 <oerjan> shachaf: that's about as much category theory as i understand.
01:51:13 <tswett> So what the heck is "exists x, P(x) -> Q(x)" in terms of "exists x, P(x)" and "exists x, Q(x)"...
01:51:44 <tswett> I'm going to skip that one.
01:52:35 <tswett> Let's just go straight to the fun part.
01:52:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52475&oldid=52465 * LyricLy * (+2521)
01:52:43 <tswett> What's "exists x, forall y, P(x,y)"?
01:52:43 <shachaf> Well, start with what is exists x. not(P(x)) in terms of exists x. P(x)
01:52:44 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
01:54:32 <shachaf> Of course exists x. not(P(x)) is not(forall x. P(x))
01:54:38 <oerjan> i had a near-pun experience after posting that on agora and someone responded they preferred fact x = foldl (*) 1 [1..x]
01:55:14 <oerjan> unfortunately, the obvious response did not appear to me until after i'd made a worse one.
01:55:22 <shachaf> What's the obvious response?
01:55:30 <oerjan> "Where's the fun in that?"
01:56:02 <shachaf> But now you get your revenge.
01:56:22 <HackEgo> diagram chasing? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:56:23 <oerjan> well i don't think they're on this channel.
01:57:08 <shachaf> `le/rn diagram chasing//Diagram chasing is a technique used to prove integer lemmas. Taneb invented it.
01:57:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'diagram chasing': Diagram chasing is a technique used to prove integer lemmas. Taneb invented it.
01:58:24 <HackEgo> diagram chasing:Diagram chasing is a technique used to prove integer lemmas. Taneb invented it.
01:58:34 <HackEgo> abstract nonsense:We would have an explanation of abstract nonsense here, but it fled into a diagram and we haven't been able to chase it. We will try again once we find an abstract machete. \ scotland:<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes \ wumpus
01:58:50 <HackEgo> 2/2:mpus:Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
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02:00:25 <HackEgo> 8060:2016-05-14 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/wumpu{,s}
02:00:41 <HackEgo> 8060:2016-05-14 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/wumpu{,s} \ 8059:2016-05-14 <int-̈e> learn Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it\'s chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
02:00:52 <shachaf> Apparently the two four lemmas put together make the five lemma. And these people call themselves mathematicians.
02:00:56 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that a locally cartesian closed category with finite sums is enough for predicate logic.
02:01:13 <shachaf> `slwd wumpus//s,labyrinth,diagram,
02:01:15 <HackEgo> wumpus//Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral diagram where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
02:01:32 <tswett> Well, yeah. Four plus four plus paths from three of the four to three of the other four equals five.
02:01:45 <oerjan> i guess that's a categorical improvement.
02:13:54 <lambdabot> ENVA 200050Z 13007KT CAVOK 07/06 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 12008KT
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02:22:59 <HackEgo> [U+00E9 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE] [U+00EA LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH CIRCUMFLEX] [U+00E8 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH GRAVE]
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02:57:45 <HackEgo> 1/1:dynamic-unwind//dynamic-unwind is just like dynamic-wind except that it's a different sort of weather. \ ⊥//⊥ is a bottom tack, useful for annoying teachers. \ cafreine//Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists. \ yeeesh//See yeesh. \ 6 random numbers//4 8 15 16 23 42
02:58:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dow: not found
02:58:20 <HackEgo> 8775:2016-07-10 <oerjän> learn Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists.
02:58:28 <HackEgo> 8061:2016-05-15 <xfïx> ` echo 4 8 15 16 23 42 > "wisdom/6 random numbers"
03:05:58 <ais523> how could we make the wisdom database Turing-complete?
03:19:45 <shachaf> I've often wondered about using some sort of language for wisdom entries, rather than just plaintext.
03:19:58 <shachaf> For example to allow referencing/including other wisdom entries, and other things.
03:20:12 <shachaf> (Maybe it can allow running arbitrary commands, to implement `? ngevd)
03:23:07 <shachaf> That's kind of boring, though.
03:23:30 <shachaf> fizzie: Can you patch up HackEgo to get access to the nick of the user running the command?
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03:36:14 <quintopia> i would play wumpus the hunted. it sounds fire
03:45:32 <Warriga_l> That sentence reminded me that I heard a song once that seemed to contain the words "they went fire".
03:45:42 <Warriga_l> So I did a Google search for "they went fire" and was surprised to actually find the song.
03:45:54 <Warriga_l> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSPker14VVY - "Clash", Caravan Palace.
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03:57:43 <Warriga_l> Dang, I feel like there was something I wanted to do.
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09:07:36 <Vorpal> Hm x86 and x86-64 has variable length instructions. This presumably means that the suffix of one instruction could be another valid instruction.
09:08:01 <Vorpal> I wonder if you construct any useful programs where you jump into the middle of another instruction to execute different code
09:08:25 <Vorpal> possibly the suffix of one instruction and part or all of the next instruction could form a valid instruction as well
09:12:35 <shachaf> What do you count as a useful program?
09:12:57 <shachaf> This sort of thing is often used to write various exploits.
09:13:13 <Vorpal> so it can be used for non-trivial purposes then
09:13:15 <shachaf> I think I've also seen it in other contexts but I can't remember where.
09:13:52 <shachaf> Apparently it's also used for obfuscation. I don't consider that useful.
09:13:54 <Vorpal> I imagine it might have been useful back in the day when the computers had much more limited memory, say 286 or older
09:14:40 <shachaf> There are probably some golfing situations where it's useful, but I doubt there are that many?
09:14:50 <shachaf> I bet it can come up a lot when looking for ROP gadgets.
09:15:01 <shachaf> And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIT_spraying
09:16:00 <shachaf> That page says you can jump into the middle of an instruction on ARM. That's interesting because I thought ARM had a fixed-length encoding. Do they not require instructions to be aligned?
09:16:11 <shachaf> Then again ARM has multiple different encodings.
09:17:14 <Vorpal> I was just about to comment on that
09:17:46 <Vorpal> iirc on arm, if LSB is set in the target address of a jump, then it switches to thumb mode
09:17:53 <Vorpal> so maybe that is what they mean?
09:20:21 <shachaf> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090128-00/?p=19353/ talks about using this for golf
09:24:32 <shachaf> Man, this generated password is annoying. It's perfectly interleaved between characters that need shift pressed and characters that don't.
09:24:58 <Vorpal> shachaf: I use a password manager with auto-typing for such passwords
09:25:20 <shachaf> C++11 has auto-typing too.
09:25:30 <Vorpal> not that sort of auto-typing
09:25:47 <Vorpal> also the C++11 one is rudimentary compared to something like haskell for example
09:26:11 <shachaf> I know, I learned Haskell before I learned C++11.
09:27:01 <Vorpal> shachaf: though I guess guessing template parameters may be closer
09:29:43 <shachaf> Anyway, it's silly to generate a password of a fixed length for typing and not consider shift a keypress.
09:29:59 <shachaf> Really I should generate all my passwords to be of the for /[a-z]{n}/
09:30:43 <shachaf> Permitting uppercase letters adds only one bit of entropy per character, and is much harder to remember.
09:31:36 <shachaf> So you could permit uppercase letters, or you could add 3-4 more lowercase letters.
09:33:11 <shachaf> > map (logBase 2) [64^15, 26^19]
10:10:57 <Jafet> unfortunately it's not up to you whether to use uppercase letters, but up to the login provider
10:11:36 <shachaf> I can always add an uppercase letter, a digit, and a "special character" to satisfy the login provider.
10:11:45 <shachaf> What are special characters?
10:11:58 <HackEgo> [U+3235 PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SPECIAL]
10:12:04 <HackEgo> [U+3295 CIRCLED IDEOGRAPH SPECIAL]
10:12:08 <shachaf> I guess I should use more of those.
10:21:11 <Jafet> apparently on cortex-m chips, the only available encoding is a mix of 16-bit and 32-bit instructions
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10:24:14 <Jafet> “According to the Japanese, the index finger is connected to the urinary bladder and the kidney. However, in other cultures the index finger is thought to be connected to the hand.”
10:25:21 <shachaf> That is a clever vandalism.
10:48:45 <HackEgo> U+7279 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7279 \ UTF-8: e7 89 b9 UTF-16BE: 7279 Decimal: 特 \ 特 (特) \ Uppercase: U+7279 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
10:50:31 <fizzie> shachaf: There are some ARMs (around the ARMv4, ARMv5 generations) where an unaligned word read actually returns the word rotated, i.e., if the memory contents are |00 01 02 03|04 05 06 07| and you read a word at offset 2, you get back the bytes 02 03 00 01. (Approximately so, anyway.)
10:50:36 <fizzie> I don't know if you could use that for instruction reads.
10:51:15 <fizzie> shachaf: I think you mentioned the nick thing before, and I was going to do it, but then forgot. Will try to remember at some point.
11:23:13 <shachaf> oerjan: do you understand goodwillie functor calculus twh
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11:56:13 <boily> Arachne, Asterion, Jorgrun, a misplaced balrog, a bunch o' spiders and a few electric eels for decoration.
11:56:19 <boily> what the fungot is going on...
11:56:19 <fungot> boily: hey my name is christie)) disabled or handicapped so i started collecting things with angels um yeah that's probably it))
11:56:29 <boily> fungot: no, you're Sir Fungellot.
11:56:29 <fungot> boily: i never believed it i thought once you were tried for like murder and you couldn't be tried again
12:11:29 <int-e> fungot: but have you ever been tried for murder? also I rather suspect that you could be tried for a different murder in any case, as long as you're still alive.
12:11:29 <fungot> int-e: the idea i think that they
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14:28:56 <\a\a\a> https://ghostbin.com/paste/azx76 is it theoretically possible to prove a program using this can end with n being any (positive, real) number
14:43:36 <int-e> what does n.to_s.to_i(8) do with 119? Does it result in 11o = 9?
14:44:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: irb: not found
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14:48:15 <int-e> So I expect you can get all natural numbers without too much trouble, using just the reinterpretations as hex and octal. But I have no proof nor time to attempt one. (Intuitively, iterating the reinterpretation as hex will produce a pseudo-random string of initial digits, so to produce n, just wait until the number starts with n in octal, followed by 8 or 9)
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14:51:58 <int-e> (and getting big numbers this way may turn out to be highly impractical)
14:53:37 <\a\a\a> yeah, i just intended for it to be hard to actually work with numbers but still possible to do
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15:36:15 <Jafet> note that ⁹ is equivalent to ܋ᾗᾚᾗῃᾗᾗ
15:37:02 <Jafet> also note that this paste site doesn't actually support copying code
15:37:22 <\a\a\a> yeah this took a while to put together so i slowly realized things i could do over the course of writing it
15:38:22 <\a\a\a> that's why you have both ⁹܋ᾚᾚᾚᾚᾚᾗ܋ and ⁹ᾗ܋
15:38:33 <int-e> . o O ( can we have an ASCII version of this? )
15:39:14 <\a\a\a> i like having it be unrelated, weird unicode characters. it makes the code look interesting
15:39:26 <\a\a\a> but it also does confuse geany so uh, hold on
15:41:05 <int-e> say: 6 (from 16) 8 (from 8) 7 (less than 8) 5 (String) 2 (Zeichen) 1 (change by 1) 9 (9)
15:41:30 <int-e> ("Zeichen" means "character" in German :P)
15:43:24 <\a\a\a> here's an ascii version https://paste.ee/p/hupOT
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16:06:24 <int-e> Apparently getting 14063 using H and n, starting from 10, is fairly hard.
16:06:53 <int-e> (10 is the result of 9T, the first number where H has a useful effect)
16:10:37 <Jafet> TnnHHHnHHHnHHHnHHHnTHnT seems no harder than other numbers of the same size
16:11:24 <int-e> (after reaching 10 first one)
16:14:14 <int-e> I'm also not actually searching for 14063 specifically; I'm enumerating numbers, and 14063 is the smallest one missing at this time.
16:24:14 <int-e> and indeed adding T helps it get past this point easily.
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16:40:26 <Jafet> well, the question of whether 9TH*n is enough is probably a hard number theory problem
16:58:36 <tswett> Is there a 2-player board game with reasonably simple rules, such that one player always has a winning strategy, and such that any statement about the integers can be transformed into a board position, such that the first player has a winning strategy if and only if the statement is true?
16:59:54 <tswett> Inb4 "yeah, there's no board, no pieces, and no moves; the win condition is to be the first player if and only if the statement is true."
17:03:18 <Jafet> 2-player peanos? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzxZ8qtdun0
17:06:58 <int-e> Jafet: I'm doing 9T[Hn]* ... H* is likely to be terribly slow
17:07:21 <HackEgo> olist 1084: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:09:14 <int-e> (and yay, I made my laptop unusable, had to reboot)
17:11:57 <Jafet> > 10^length "14063" * 10 `div` length "89"
17:12:58 <tswett> I guess you could have a "board game" where the players take turns assigning specific numbers to all the quantifiers.
17:13:12 <Jafet> > let n = 500000 in n * (log n + 0.57)
17:15:42 <Jafet> (it should really be length "33357", which is the precursor to 14063)
17:16:09 <Jafet> tswett: does that work for all quantifiers? (namely, forall quantifiers?)
17:17:03 <tswett> If all the quantifiers are at the very front of the statement, then player 1 picks the values for the existential quantifiers and player 2 picks the values for the universal quantifiers.
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17:18:55 <int-e> Jafet: what does your [HTn]* program say for 36105?
17:21:08 <int-e> (hah, 8m30s into the enumeration it found a solution for that one... well, it doesn't actually record the solutions)
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17:22:10 <int-e> (37587 is the next one)
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17:25:22 <int-e> hate the hater ... not the hate
17:27:03 <Jafet> therefore do not hate
17:27:26 <HackEgo> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
17:27:46 <int-e> hassle the hassler
17:28:06 <Jafet> I can't seem to get past 6995 for [Hn]*, probably because this program is limited to 64-bit numbers
17:32:24 <int-e> http://lpaste.net/5694671569826086912 is what I've produced... throwaway code quality :P
17:34:38 <int-e> and it's gobbling up tons of memory too
17:34:57 <Jafet> hm, prenex normal form (all quantifiers at the front) in fact exists for first-order arithmetic
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18:13:00 <Jafet> well, the 9T[Hn]* search finished without even getting to 6995
18:14:57 <Jafet> it found 3287481 numbers reachable without overflow, and then spun on an empty queue for half an hour
18:18:34 <Jafet> > 2^64 `div 3287481
18:18:36 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: error: parse error on input ‘3287481’
18:18:40 <Jafet> > 2^64 `div` 3287481
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18:28:07 <imode> what'cha doin', Jafet.
18:30:58 <Jafet> wasting time on the language given by https://paste.ee/p/hupOT
18:31:19 <imode> "written by trial and error". hah.
18:31:24 <Jafet> I'm not sure why this is worth the time. it's not even on the esowiki
18:31:47 <imode> why not spend the time?
18:32:16 <imode> if it's fun, why not? :P
18:33:10 <Jafet> well, it's almost certain that every number is reachable by those operations and it is equally almost certain that trying to prove this will be futile
18:34:13 <Jafet> it's mildly surprising that so few numbers are reachable with a 64-bit state, though
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20:03:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Totallyhuman * New user account
20:11:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stevoisiak * New user account
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20:17:50 <\oren\> http://www.tmz.com/2017/07/20/linkin-park-singer-chester-bennington-dead-commits-suicide/
20:18:02 <wob_jonas> Hi guys. Can I ask stupid off-topic questions?
20:19:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:20:29 <wob_jonas> I just installed a new carbon-monoxide alarm. The old alarm is of type Honeywell SF-450-EN, and is at its end of lifetime. How do I turn off (shut down) the old alarm before I dispose of it as used electrics?
20:20:54 <wob_jonas> If someone happens to know the proper way, that would make my life simpler. If not, I'll call their customer service number tomorrow and ask them.
20:21:18 <\oren\> take batteries out I assume?
20:21:29 <wob_jonas> (The new alarm is of a different model, and I know how to turn that one of, but that knowledge is of no use to me.)
20:21:58 <shachaf> I have some sort of batteryless alarm that has a thing in the back you can poke to permanently turn it off.
20:22:56 <wob_jonas> shachaf: hmm, that might be under this X mark on the back
20:24:08 <wob_jonas> I don't understand why the manual for that device doesn't tell how this works. I've downloaded an English language manual, and it doesn't say anything.
20:25:33 <shachaf> "When the unit has come to the end of its life, dispose of it inaccordance with local regulations."
20:26:20 <wob_jonas> shachaf: right. that tells me I have to dispose it as electric waste, not together with household waste. I know how to do that.
20:26:34 <shachaf> Maybe the local regulations tell you how to turn it off.
20:28:09 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED31RlJASZE outlines one method.
20:28:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: isn't that a different brand?
20:28:52 <shachaf> It's a different model but I suspet it can be adapted pretty easily.
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20:40:21 <Stevoisiak> Hello. I just created an account on Esolangs and have already managed to lock myself out. Is there a way to reset my password?
20:41:56 <wob_jonas> Stevoisiak: someone in here might be able to help, but if you only created the account now, it might be simpler to create another account
20:42:21 <Stevoisiak> wob_jonas: I created it using my primary username and email, Stevoisiak
20:42:31 <Stevoisiak> I'd like to keep that username if possible
20:45:20 <wob_jonas> Stevoisiak: one thing you might want to try is to remove cookies then login only on the http interface or only on the https interface, sometimes one of those don't work
20:45:42 <wob_jonas> I don't recall the details of which one works
20:46:35 <wob_jonas> Stevoisiak: also try the automatic password reset form which sends you an email http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:PasswordReset , I'm not sure if that works for this wiki but it's worth a try
20:47:03 <Stevoisiak> @wob_jonas: I'm still waiting on my initial confirmation email
20:47:38 <Stevoisiak> wob_jonas: I'm still waiting on my initial confrimation email
20:48:15 <Stevoisiak> Also, I'm currently logged into the account. I just don't know what the password is. (LastPass didn't save my password for some reason)
20:48:20 <wob_jonas> Stevoisiak: fizzie will probably be able to help
20:50:19 <wob_jonas> or oerjan, I'm not sure which one of them
20:56:48 <fizzie> I probably can, if I can figure out how.
20:57:13 <wob_jonas> fizzie: does the automatic email-based password recovery work?
20:57:26 <wob_jonas> if so, then Stevo just has to request that and wait for the email
20:57:35 <fizzie> In theory yes, but there's a bit of an issue with the email setup on the wiki, which may result in emails never getting there.
20:57:54 <fizzie> (The server doesn't have a valid reverse DNS entry, thanks to Cloud at Cost, and many mail servers don't like that at all.)
20:58:45 <wob_jonas> well, if Stevo is still logged in, he can prove that by editing, and then at worst you can rename his account and he can create a new one with this name
21:00:07 <fizzie> Looks like there's an administration script that can set the password of any user, I can just reset it manually.
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21:00:36 <fizzie> And then mail it to the associated email address.
21:00:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:01:20 <Stevoisiak> Editing the page for http://esolangs.org/wiki/HQ9%2B
21:04:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52476&oldid=52470 * Stevoisiak * (+288) /* Introductions */
21:05:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52477&oldid=52067 * Stevoisiak * (+8) Add creation year
21:07:59 <fizzie> Resolved. Though I should really try to get the emails to work.
21:12:10 <Stevoisiak> On an unrelated note: The Befunge CAPTCHA had me so confused
21:12:59 <Stevoisiak> I ended up turning the CAPTCHA into a StackOverflow question.
21:13:18 <wob_jonas> haha, the base 9 to base 10 conversion. gets everyone.
21:13:31 <Stevoisiak> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45223117/why-does-the-befunge-code-9332682811-9-output-52256370
21:14:32 <wob_jonas> I think it turns base 9 to base 10, but I'm not quite sure
21:16:05 <wob_jonas> it's not quite that, but something close\
21:17:06 <Stevoisiak> Doesn't seem to be base 9. `9332682811` in base 9 is `26072072027`
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21:23:04 <int-e> 118286233 in base 9 is 52256370
21:23:35 <fizzie> It's base 9 and reversed, and the 9 is a terminator.
21:23:46 <fizzie> Oh, int-e said it already.
21:24:02 <int-e> yeah but without understanding the code :P
21:24:37 <wob_jonas> oh, the 9- acts on a duplicate to test for the terminator, it's not used in adding to the number?
21:24:39 <int-e> (well, I have bits and pieces. in particular the multiplication by 9 suggests a conversion *from* base 9)
21:25:02 <fizzie> FWIW, "stick it into an online Befunge interpreter" *is* the intended way of passing it.
21:27:19 <fizzie> It's not so much an in-joke but a response to some rather nasty bouts of spammers. So's the introduction requirement.
21:29:11 <Stevoisiak> fizzie: Honestly, I didn't think of using an interpreter for a good 30 minutes
21:29:48 <fizzie> If you want to work through it, it may be helpful to de-onelinerify it into http://sprunge.us/cMVA
21:30:38 <fizzie> (In the original the 9 is used for two slightly different things when going in different directions, which I think was a nice touch.)
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21:33:07 <fizzie> ...sorry, I dropped a \ when converting it...
21:33:44 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/bEJj should be more like it.
21:34:29 <fizzie> At the start of the loop (the >) the top of stack is basically an accumulator, so it pulls the next number under it (\), tests if it is the terminating 9 (:9- and _), and if not, multiplies the accumulator by 9 and adds the new number to it (\9*+).
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21:39:07 <Stevoisiak> fizzie: The Captcha help page should mention that an interpreter is the intended solution http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help
21:44:23 <fizzie> Yeah, probably. I'm guessing that's a stock help text we've never customized.
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23:04:56 <HackEgo> 1/2:gaspatsjo//gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ supermarioperator//supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle. \ brain//Brains are just receptacles for bricks. \ rules of wisdom//unless essential for the entry‘s humor,
23:05:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:05:19 <HackEgo> 2/2:should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation jander//Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
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23:19:48 <quintopia> did you see there is a free game on humble store today
23:19:58 <quintopia> i've not heard of it before but i can't argue with the price
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23:22:24 <boily> of course we aren't. Sunday is happening on Sunday, tsé.
23:22:51 <quintopia> just like a bjonas to object and flee
23:25:57 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:26:08 <HackEgo> wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:38:40 * boily throws a fungot at wob_jonas' scent. “go! let's find him!”
23:38:40 <fungot> boily: it's the same principle or whatever yeah
23:44:26 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
23:45:09 <boily> fresh salt and pepper pepper pepper.
23:45:51 <quintopia> unpack those acronyms twh would help
23:46:21 <shachaf> The videos at the YouTube channel named "You Suck At Cooking" are too good.
23:48:19 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCekQr9znsk2vWxBo3YiLq2w/videos
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00:28:45 <Jafet> fizzie: so the completely automated public turing test to tell computers and humans apart is meant to be passed only by computers?
00:29:07 <Jafet> I guess that makes sense
00:31:33 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
00:43:16 <tswett> `le/rn thanks//"Thanks" is short for "that helped assorted Norwegians know solitude".
00:43:17 <HackEgo> Learned 'thanks': "Thanks" is short for "that helped assorted Norwegians know solitude".
00:46:32 <quintopia> boily: you never gave me a TIME OF THE CLOCK.
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00:55:17 <shachaf> I saw a learned, learned man
00:57:09 <shachaf> Jafet: That sounds more like a coturing test.
00:57:23 <Jafet> `learn Thanks is the left absorbing element for the porthanking operation on people named Hanks. Or Anks. It is also the left identity for actor Tom Hanks.
00:57:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'thank': Thanks is the left absorbing element for the porthanking operation on people named Hanks. Or Anks. It is also the left identity for actor Tom Hanks.
00:58:10 <Jafet> `le/rn thanks//Thanks is the left absorbing element for the porthanking operation on people named Hanks. Or Anks. It is also the left identity for actor Tom Hanks.
00:58:12 <HackEgo> Relearned 'thanks': Thanks is the left absorbing element for the porthanking operation on people named Hanks. Or Anks. It is also the left identity for actor Tom Hanks.
00:58:46 <shachaf> Isn't Tom Hanks a person named Hanks, though?
00:59:10 <shachaf> I guess that's not incompatible with what you said.
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01:01:31 <boily> quintopia: 8pm is a time of the clock.
01:03:56 <\oren\> sell sell sell hahahahahahaha!
01:03:58 <\oren\> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/13/bitcoins_might_just_vanish_into_the_ether/
01:04:12 <boily> he\\oren\. you sound insane. everything's right?
01:04:29 <\oren\> boily: bitcoins are DOOOMED
01:05:05 * boily douses \oren\ with Holy Maple Syrup. «calme-toé le pompon!»
01:06:35 <shachaf> \oren\: What if I have no bitcoins?
01:07:38 <\oren\> shachaf: that would be a good plan, but everyone knows when it will happen so according to that stupid economics theory you can't make any money
01:07:53 <\oren\> I don't have any bitcoins either
01:08:23 <shachaf> If you believe in that stupid economics theory, why are you telling me to sell?
01:09:00 <\oren\> well because if you own any, they are at risk of either vanishing or losing alot of value
01:09:21 <shachaf> But the current price already takes that into account, you're saying.
01:09:49 <\oren\> depends how cautious bitcoiners are
01:10:14 <\oren\> some of them might even swithc to the newer bitcoinage
01:10:21 <shachaf> copumpkin: Remember that one time when you offered to give me 1 BTC (?) to get me interested? That offer is still on, right?
01:10:54 <HackEgo> voiccoin vocacoin tagcoin teempadcoin aphagoncoin loadelogenocoin revelacoin doccoin inccoin swirtccoin geom+coin baggreedynaurinatoxoga-intercoin flogcoin coderlcoin uncitcoin velycoin willcoin rumbogucoin volmcoin elicacicoin
01:11:08 <shachaf> I would switch to baggreedynaurinatoxoga-intercoin
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01:13:48 <fungot> boily: ( ( i know)) you really should turn on your t._v. but i mean for me
01:14:09 <boily> fungot: nah, TVs rot the brain.
01:14:09 <fungot> boily: they're beautiful i don't know
01:14:14 <HackEgo> enchcoin celiecoin patincocoin rephreasurcoin preticack!coin halfcoin glash-01coin chrocoin ziecoin ndermacoin ranotcoin gammacoin chacoin betacoin lukcoin adderincoin ortanacoin highetacoin suchcoin nandcoin
01:14:32 <boily> gammacoin or betacoin?
01:14:44 <shachaf> I'd betacoin or two on the latter.
01:15:40 * boily happily thwacks shachaf. 0.65 FP.
01:16:59 <HackEgo> funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
01:17:23 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: r13: command not found
01:17:29 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
01:17:45 <quintopia> boily: alright, i have you scheduled in for sunday at 8pm. please provide at least 24 hours notice if you cannot make your appointment or you will be charged a rescheduling fee of 2 more beerses.
01:19:10 <boily> [x] I fully agree and consent to the aforementioned terms and conditions
01:19:39 <boily> Sous-signé, Alexandre Boily
01:20:05 <quintopia> now i want to see what your insignia looks like
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01:25:43 * boily gesticulates. “it kind of has that stroke like that, then that one, then a loop then a dot.”
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01:27:51 <shachaf> The offer is on unless I'm interested enough to accept it.
01:27:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52478&oldid=52475 * LyricLy * (+137)
01:30:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52479&oldid=52420 * Manushand * (+197) /* Examples */
01:31:17 <shachaf> copumpkin: did you ever get around to reading that book
01:31:43 <shachaf> copumpkin: Remind me whether you have a pooch in VA?
01:31:55 <copumpkin> nope, haven't read any books in over a year. My first in ages is Anathem which I'm slowly getting through
01:32:31 <copumpkin> I do have a physical copy of the book though which is supposed to be next after Anathem :)
01:33:50 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you have any photographic evidence of said pooches
01:34:38 <copumpkin> https://twitter.com/copumpkin/status/871115633701916674
01:35:03 <copumpkin> https://twitter.com/copumpkin/status/869193012949200896 https://twitter.com/copumpkin/status/862120526743048192
01:35:15 <shachaf> Also did you see my twit about http://slbkbs.org/serp-pass.html ?
01:36:06 <shachaf> it is with a heavy heart that i must announce that the pooches are at it again
01:36:35 <copumpkin> shachaf: didn't see it :) but amusing
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01:37:24 <Jafet> `slwd funpun//s/ø/ƀ/
01:37:26 <HackEgo> funpun//funpuns fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
01:37:42 <shachaf> Jafet: Please fix bin/rot13 twh
01:38:05 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
01:43:09 <quintopia> why might my laptop eject and reload usb devices when it's in power-saving mode (but just once)?
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01:50:35 <boily> quintopia: to make the devices do some power-saving by themselves?
01:53:05 <quintopia> there's a rick astley song playing
01:53:28 <shachaf> Is it "Never Gonna Give You Up"?
01:53:31 <shachaf> That song is pretty popular.
01:54:45 <quintopia> if it were that one, i would have recognized it.
01:56:05 <boily> the one with the lamps? can't remember the name. something about the night.
01:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stasoid * New user account
02:01:14 <quintopia> what is the best wes anderson film
02:03:03 <boily> haven't seen any :/
02:03:45 <quintopia> followup question: why the hell not? :P
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03:58:35 <\oren\> DERP http://imgur.com/4NCmKgs
03:58:48 <shachaf> Is that going to be KSP, if I click it?
04:06:31 <oerjan> i'd have preferred kerbles
04:11:12 <\oren\> oerjan: you don't leik "やはり俺の青春ラブコメは間違っている"?
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04:24:26 <pikhq> I had a power outage, computer was fucking up, have only *now* had time to fix it.
04:26:55 <HackEgo> 1/2:wise//Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. \ resolution//As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other. \ wlcom//Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our
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04:27:12 <HackEgo> 2/2: wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)effilry//Effilry is eemnoos how ahs got it all deorst otu. \ sense//Sense is the ability to understand things. A person with much sense is called a sensei.
04:28:04 <shachaf> oerjan: should wisdom/wlcom have a newline at the end or is that part of the joke twh
04:28:12 <oerjan> i was just wondering myself
04:28:32 <HackEgo> 4002:2013-11-13 <km̈c> printf \'Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)\' > wisdom/wlcom
04:29:25 <oerjan> `` echo >>wisdom/wlcom
04:29:57 <oerjan> hm i guess the first would lock the file
04:30:21 <HackEgo> 1/3:Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.) \ Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try ht
04:30:37 <HackEgo> 11106:2017-07-21 <oerjän> ` echo >>wisdom/wlcom \ 11105:2017-07-21 <Jafët> slwd funpun//s/\xc3\xb8/\xc6\x80/ \ 11104:2017-07-20 <Jafët> le/rn thanks//Thanks is the left absorbing element for the porthanking operation on people named Hanks. Or Anks. It is also the left identity for actor Tom Hanks. \ 11103:2017-07-20 <Jafët> revert \ 11102:2
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04:41:28 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: do you understand goodwillie functor calculus twh <-- my understanding is perfect, as for all things i have never heard of
04:42:03 <oerjan> (zero is a perfect number, right?)
04:43:50 <shachaf> Hmm, "It is not known whether there are any odd perfect numbers, nor whether infinitely many perfect numbers exist."
04:50:15 <Jafet> @let perfect n = 2*n == sum [i | i <- [1..n], mod n i == 0]
05:31:57 <\oren\> Bah, as expected, the official translation is even more stilted
05:32:02 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Youth_Romantic_Comedy_Is_Wrong,_As_I_Expected
05:32:41 <\oren\> I would have put it "Of course my young love comedy is messed up."
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06:24:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52480&oldid=52346 * Qwertyu63 * (+4786) WIP Esolang
06:25:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52481&oldid=52480 * Qwertyu63 * (+18)
06:28:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52482&oldid=52481 * Qwertyu63 * (+399)
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06:30:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52483&oldid=52482 * Qwertyu63 * (+86)
06:32:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52484&oldid=52483 * Qwertyu63 * (+76)
06:33:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52485&oldid=52484 * Qwertyu63 * (+12)
06:43:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52486&oldid=52485 * Qwertyu63 * (+202)
06:43:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52487&oldid=52486 * Qwertyu63 * (+17)
06:45:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52488&oldid=52487 * Qwertyu63 * (+41)
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11:44:51 <HackEgo> 1/2:1244) <Jafet> I guess the problem is, the cache size bounds the evilness of the memory bus \ 1008) <fizzie> ... <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. <fizzie> octave:1> fact(20) <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!. \ 1049) <Sgeo> People ar
11:45:07 <HackEgo> 1/2:alpha//Alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral. \ tvtrope//We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first. \ transformer//A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does. \ procrastination//The Procrast
11:45:10 <HackEgo> 2/2:ination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube. \ `!//`! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it originally replaced some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
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12:00:44 <Jafet> do we have an architecture where mov actually moves data
12:00:48 <Jafet> instead of copying it
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12:38:20 <int-e> (reversible computing is trickier than that; you can copy a value to a place with a known value with a controlled not gate)
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13:35:17 <Jafet> `fetch http://sprunge.us/MXOA
13:35:21 <HackEgo> 2017-07-21 12:34:54 URL:http://sprunge.us/MXOA [727/727] -> "MXOA" [1]
13:36:06 <Jafet> `` \? shachaf | python MXOA
13:36:07 <HackEgo> Dhrra Funpuns bs gur Qnja fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Ur qbrfa'g xabj jura gb fgbc nfxvat dhrfgvbaf.
13:36:35 <Jafet> `` mv MXOA bin/rot13 && chmod +x bin/rot13
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13:38:53 <Jafet> `` mv bin/rot13{,_stdin} && echo 'print_args_or_input "$@" | rot13_stdin' >bin/rot13 && chmod +x bin/rot13
13:40:48 <Jafet> `/usr/bin/env python
13:41:19 <HackEgo> Python 2.7.9 (default, Jun 29 2016, 13:08:31) \ [GCC 4.9.2] on linux2 \ Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. \ >>>
13:47:35 <Jafet> `hd bin/rot13_stdin
13:47:36 <HackEgo> 000000 23 21 2f 75 73 72 2f 62 69 6e 2f 65 6e 76 20 70 >#!/usr/bin/env p< \ 000010 79 74 68 6f 6e 0d 0a 0d 0a 69 6d 70 6f 72 74 20 >ython....import < \ 000020 72 65 2c 20 73 79 73 2c 20 75 6e 69 63 6f 64 65 >re, sys, unicode< \ 000030 64 61 74 61 20 61 73 20 55 0d 0a 64 65 66 20 74 >data as U..def t< \ 000040 72 28 63 29 3a 0d 0a 20 20 20 20 6d
13:49:20 <Jafet> `` sed -i 's/\r//' bin/rot13_stdin
13:49:22 <HackEgo> bin/rot13_stdin//#!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import re, sys, unicodedata as U \ def tr(c): \ m = re.match(r'(.*\bLATIN\b.*\bLETTER )([A-Z])\b(.*)', U.name(c, '')) \ if m: \ p, q, r = m.groups() \ n = ord(q) - ord('A') \ try: \ return U.lookup(p + chr(ord('A') + (n + 13) % 26) + r) \ except KeyError
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13:57:30 <Vorpal> Jafet: I don't believe rot13 is well defined without reference to an alphabet (as opposed to a character set)
13:59:21 <Vorpal> Jafet: consider you example, I would dispute it in the context of Swedish: abc...xyzåäö is the Swedish alphabet. This means that rotating half the alphabet would be impossible (since there are an odd number of characters) but even so, in that definition rot13(ä) is not n with two dots
14:02:46 <Jafet> this one is defined with reference to the english alphabet, clearly
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14:07:13 <Vorpal> Jafet: but there is no letter ä in the English alphabet
14:07:54 <Vorpal> I assume it decomposes the letter to "dots-combiner" (or whatever it is called" and an a
14:08:25 <Vorpal> though I thought the ä from my keyboard ended up being a separate codepoint
14:09:12 <Jafet> the code actually purports to change the LATIN codepoints, but the romans didn't even have j or w!
14:09:23 <Jafet> the unicode consortium, whitewashing history.
14:09:58 <Vorpal> Jafet: Swedish didn't have w in the alphabet until maybe 20 years ago or so
14:10:50 <Vorpal> And you never see w or q in anything except loan-words and some proper names.
14:13:15 <Vorpal> I should write a rotN-program in which you can register alphabets hm
14:15:32 <Jafet> also, wiktionary lists doppelgänger as an english word
14:18:33 <Vorpal> should be b with dots at least?
14:18:43 <HackEgo> U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS \ UTF-8: c3 b6 UTF-16BE: 00f6 Decimal: ö \ ö (Ö) \ Uppercase: U+00D6 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 006F 0308 \ \ U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B \ UTF-8: 62 UTF-16BE: 0062 Decimal: b \ b (B) \ Uppercase: U+0042 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \
14:18:51 <HackEgo> [U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS]
14:18:53 <HackEgo> U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS \ UTF-8: c3 b6 UTF-16BE: 00f6 Decimal: ö \ ö (Ö) \ Uppercase: U+00D6 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 006F 0308
14:19:52 <Vorpal> Jafet: I guess my font just doesn't display b with dots properly
14:20:17 <Vorpal> (Dejavu Sans Mono I believe)
14:23:10 <Jafet> dejavu fonts cover all latin scripts, but your font renderer might not
14:23:36 <Jafet> b̈ renders correctly here
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14:26:02 <Vorpal> Jafet: well, it is whatever hexchat uses, so whatever GTK uses probably. Which means pango I think
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14:36:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Juergen * New user account
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14:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52489&oldid=52476 * Juergen * (+146) /* Introductions */
14:41:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52490&oldid=51690 * Juergen * (+12) abbreviations explained
14:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52491&oldid=51694 * Juergen * (+3) Typo
15:02:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52492&oldid=52489 * Juergen * (-1) Typo
15:29:25 <tswett> Aren't `unicode and `unidecode sort of backwards...
15:30:39 <tswett> U+00F6 is a code for ö, so turning U+00F6 into ö is decoding.
15:31:02 <tswett> I mean, to be fair, it's really translating from one encoding to another.
15:32:16 <tswett> From codepoints-written-out-in-ASCII to UTF-8.
15:32:33 <tswett> I'd say that CWOIA is "more coded", though, don't you think?
15:32:55 <tswett> Anyway, I'm outta here. Adiös.
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20:26:54 <zzo38> I have found out why the Greek alphabets in MIX are different; it is because the Theta/Phi/Pi is from before they used computerized typesetting for the books.
20:28:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52493&oldid=52435 * Zzo38 * (+192) Old and new versions of character codes
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20:31:10 <zzo38> I have also partially written a implementation of MIX in BASIC, which is called MIXPC. (It isn't completed yet.)
20:31:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: so you were looking at the first edition of vol 2
20:32:22 <wob_jonas> does vol 3 even have an edition from before TeX? I thought only vol 1 and vol 2 had such editions
20:33:01 <wob_jonas> anyway, I don't see why rewriting his book in TeX would cause Knuth to change the MIX printer character set
20:33:24 <zzo38> Apparently vol 3 does. Now I returned it (the book was due) and now I have the first edition of vol 1 and the second edition of vol 2. And I don't know why that would cause Knuth to change the character set either, but somehow, it does.
20:34:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, in BASIC? does it use 32-bit integers, which only newer dialects of BASIC use? or does it simulate big integers by using double-precison floating point, which old BASICs often have, though not the IEEE kind of double precision?
20:34:23 <wob_jonas> or do you just compute everything with 16-bit integers?
20:34:58 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Everything is computed with 16-bit integers, doing carrying one byte to the next when doing addition of MIX words.
20:35:39 <wob_jonas> anyway, in that case the Delta/Sigma/Pi is the canonical version, and the Theta/Phi/Pi is obsolete
20:36:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: can I see that implementation of MIX?
20:36:03 <zzo38> (It does use 32-bit integers for record numbers for the disk and tapes actually)
20:36:34 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It isn't complete yet, but anyways here it is: http://sprunge.us/JIfd
20:37:18 <zzo38> Some non-ASCII characters seem to have gotten lost in this transfer to sprunge, unfortunately.
20:37:26 <wob_jonas> oh, that must be in some modern basic. it has block-if.
20:38:05 <shachaf> 'tis your one byte, sir, catching fire / from one word to the next!
20:38:31 <zzo38> (Also there is no implementation of paper tape and I do not intend to add an implementation of paper tape; this may change in future though if it is found to be important.)
20:39:52 <zzo38> The like that says KEY 1, "": KEY 2, "": KEY 3, "" is supposed to have Greek alphabets between the quotation marks, and the string a$ in SUB InitConversion is supposed to have Greek alphabets inserted in the proper places.
20:40:21 <wob_jonas> zzo38: as far as I understand, paper tape is irrelevant, it's just another user-facing head of the teletype besides the keyboard and printer. from the perspective of the MIX machine, you just get character input and output,
20:40:40 <wob_jonas> you probably can't even distinguish whether input comes from the tape or keyboard (or mixed at character granularity), or whether output goes only to the printer or both to the printer and paper tape
20:41:16 <zzo38> You can however rewind the paper tape in MIX; MIXPC doesn't implement paper tape, so you can't rewind it.
20:42:18 <wob_jonas> maybe it's that rigid harmonica kind of paper tape than that's made of thick paper like punch cards, not the cheap flexible type
20:43:16 <wob_jonas> you're passing entire structures to functions... what sort of magical modern BASIC is that even
20:44:25 <zzo38> The structures are passed by reference. Everything passed to functions is by reference unless it says BYVAL (which is only allowed for numeric types).
20:46:47 <wob_jonas> I'm just not used to that sort of basic programming
20:51:21 <zzo38> You can tell me if you have other comment, question, complaint, about this program please.
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20:51:42 <zzo38> (It is also possible there are some mistakes in it, because it is not thoroughly tested.)
20:52:07 <shachaf> zzo38: OK, I'll tell you if I have other comment. What's your fax number please?
20:52:18 <wob_jonas> so the CMPA instruction isn't implemented?
20:52:55 <zzo38> Not yet anyways; it will be, once the program is completed.
20:53:06 <zzo38> So far a lot isn't implemented.
20:54:53 <wob_jonas> in the AddSubtract function, the FOR i = 2 TO 6 loop seems a bit suspicious. why is there a whole loop there, as opposed to just one comparison with i=2 ?
20:57:51 <wob_jonas> what's COMMAND$ and where is it initialized?
20:58:23 <zzo38> COMMAND$ is the command-line arguments given to the program, converted to uppercase.
20:59:23 <zzo38> (This program uses the command-line argument to specify how many values are valid in a MIX byte, from 64 to 100, with a default of 100, and if a slash is afterward, starts with the device config menu.)
21:00:51 <shachaf> From 64 base 10 to 100 base 8.
21:03:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: where do you initialize the registers and memory to valid values (eg. six-byte strings with valid bytes), or else why do you not need to initialize them?
21:03:43 <zzo38> Everything is automatically initialized to zero.
21:06:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't understand where in the program you do the indexing, that is, compute M from the A and I fields of an instruction
21:07:07 <zzo38> I made a mistake there too thank you for notifying me.
21:07:27 <zzo38> The index register number is supposed to be loaded into "idx" but now I see that I forgot that part.
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21:15:44 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, MUL, DIV and the shifts aren't implemented yet either, right?
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21:16:31 <zzo38> Yes they aren't implemented yet, but I will implement them. (Currently this program isn't so useful as it currently is, as it doesn't do much)
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21:17:16 <zzo38> Also the article on esolang wiki says printer is device 20, but the book I have says 18 is the printer.
21:19:09 <wob_jonas> you're right, the printer is device 18
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21:21:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52494&oldid=52493 * B jonas * (+0) /* IO */
21:26:25 <zzo38> Another thing in my program is there is a command that allows the operator to rewind the tape (in the device config menu); perhaps that command should also allow the operator to rewind the card reader if "R" is entered at the "Rewind which tape?" prompt.
21:28:11 <zzo38> It might be useful if you want to load the same card deck again without having to retype the filename of the card deck.
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21:47:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in ReadField, you should probably add some check to give an error if the field specification is invalid, unless you're sure those always result in an error
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21:59:17 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes I could add that, thank you for suggestion
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22:09:23 <HackEgo> 1/2:anagram//Interestingly, "Robert Galbraith" is *not* an anagram of "J. K. Rowling". \ intercal//INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ ioccclist//ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or th
22:09:26 <HackEgo> 2/2:e source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news \ marriage//Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26. \ source//Sources for HackEgo can be found at https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/multibot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox
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22:14:02 <wob_jonas> Oh right, the IOCCC site still says "The IOCCC is on hiatus until mid 2017" as latest new, what's the deal with that?
22:14:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think it became such a big deal to judge that the judges don't want to run IOCCCs too often
22:15:13 <shachaf> Any other good contests going on?
22:15:20 <shachaf> Wasn't there an underhanded contest that ended recently?
22:15:57 <shachaf> https://underhandedcrypto.com/
22:17:25 <wob_jonas> ICFP contest will start in two weeks
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22:36:40 <quintopia> what is that competition usually like
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22:38:58 <wob_jonas> quintopia: interesting. look at some of the prev years at http://icfpcontest.github.io/ . (some years have fallen off the internet(
22:39:58 <ais523> quintopia: it varies in quality but is often very good
22:40:03 <ais523> it also generates an average of more than one esolang per year
22:40:33 <wob_jonas> hehe.. I'm not sure, I think it's slightly below 1 per year
22:41:07 <ais523> typically because there's a strong tradition to make the contest language-agnostic, so it's common to create an asm-alike and ask people to compile into it
22:41:25 <ais523> although some years they just use, say, x86 asm and give people a VM image to test their programs on
22:41:52 <ais523> and some years they use network sockets and have people run their programs locally
22:41:59 <shachaf> ais523: Are you participating this year?
22:42:06 <ais523> shachaf: I only participated once
22:42:15 <ais523> it's possible I'll participate if a) I remember, and b) I find the task interesting
22:42:38 <ais523> interestingly, one of the prizes is to have the organizers of the event publicly pay a complement to the programming language you used
22:42:56 <wob_jonas> they never asked people to compile to a general asm-like.
22:43:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: general, no
22:43:24 <ais523> special purpose asm-likes happen all the time though
22:43:28 <ais523> e.g. with the ant contest
22:43:31 <wob_jonas> at least one contest had large programs written by the organizers distributed in some general-purpose low-level language, which the teams had to run;
22:43:48 <ais523> the whole UMIX contest was the best thing ever
22:43:50 <wob_jonas> and yes, in at least two contest teams had to write programs in some very restricted esolang
22:43:58 <ais523> and the great thing about it is that it's also entirely self-contained
22:44:15 <ais523> you can take part in the contest for fun even long after it finished and the judging servers were taken down
22:44:22 <wob_jonas> but in that case the point isn't really to be language-agnostic, but more like to restrict what you can submit, similarly to bfjoust
22:44:38 <ais523> because you eventually discover that there's a judging server deeply encoded in the specification itself
22:44:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's both, I'd say
22:46:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, the 2006 contest with the sand machine did that; but also the 2007 contest distributed a large program in Endo DNA/RNA, which is a rather esoteric general purpose language
22:47:30 <ais523> shachaf: if you're interested in what ICFP contests are like, I strongly recommend trying this one out for yourself: http://boundvariable.org/task.shtml
22:48:00 <ais523> it was the best contest ever IMO (I missed it live but have had a lot of fun experimenting with it later), and it doesn't require anything other than the downloads at the bottom of that page to participate in
22:52:21 <ais523> oh and the encryption key on the page itself; its purpose was to ensure that people didn't start "early" (it was kept secret until the official start of the contest, but you could download the files in advance in case you had a slow connection)
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22:56:56 <ais523> huh, does Rust's Result type seriously not have an >>= equivalent? or am I missing it?
22:57:08 <ais523> it's clearly a monad and has a ton of utility methods, but not the main one for chaining them
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22:58:53 <ais523> oh, it might be `and_then`
22:58:57 <ais523> this documentation is surprisingly unclear
22:59:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, I think it's the and_then function
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23:00:21 <ais523> ah right, "T" in the documentation of and_then refers to the first generic type parameter of the Result, which is consistently used on the page
23:00:26 <ais523> but it's easy to miss because it isn't documented anywhere nearby
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23:01:19 <ais523> I don't think Rust's metaprogramming power is currently enough to grasp the concept of "being a monad" because it doesn't have higher-kinded types
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23:02:59 <ais523> luckily, once it does, you could add impls to make all these standard types into "official" monads retroactively
23:03:21 <ais523> that's one thing that Rust does way better than, say, Java
23:04:05 <wob_jonas> you probably know this, but there's some active and friendly rust channels over on the mozilla irc server
23:05:00 <ais523> at the moment I'm just dabbling
23:05:19 <ais523> I like systems languages and I like safe languages, so Rust naturally caught my attentino
23:06:05 <wob_jonas> my opinion is that rust will be a pretty good language in some years, when they improve it, especially the libraries, a bit more
23:06:24 <wob_jonas> the community developing rust (the compiler and standard libraries) is doing it very well
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23:50:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emmental]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52495&oldid=50030 * CatIsFluffy * (-6)
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01:38:56 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import re, sys, unicodedata as U \ def tr(c): \ m = re.match(r'(.*\bLATIN\b.*\bLETTER )([A-Z])\b(.*)', U.name(c, '')) \ if m: \ p, q, r = m.groups() \ n = ord(q) - ord('A') \ try: \ return U.lookup(p + chr(ord('A') + (n + 13) % 26) + r) \ except KeyError: \
01:39:05 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | rot13_stdin
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01:39:39 <HackEgo> bin/print_args_or_input \ bin/shebang_args_or_input
01:40:12 <oerjan> `` grep -l -r shebang_a
01:40:20 <oerjan> `` grep -l -r shebang_a bin
01:40:21 <HackEgo> bin/h \ bin/rainwords \ bin/rainbow.old \ bin/zalgo
01:40:35 <HackEgo> #!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
01:41:22 <oerjan> `` mv bin/rot13{_stdin,}
01:41:44 <oerjan> `sled bin/rot13//1c#!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python
01:41:45 <HackEgo> bin/rot13//#!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ \ import re, sys, unicodedata as U \ def tr(c): \ m = re.match(r'(.*\bLATIN\b.*\bLETTER )([A-Z])\b(.*)', U.name(c, '')) \ if m: \ p, q, r = m.groups() \ n = ord(q) - ord('A') \ try: \ return U.lookup(p + chr(ord('A') + (n + 13) % 26) + r) \
01:42:05 <oerjan> `rot13 Ørjan testing...
01:42:36 <oerjan> `` echo sheesh 1 rot13
01:42:43 <oerjan> `` echo sheesh | rot13
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01:44:09 <oerjan> `? print_args_or_input
01:44:10 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:45:45 <oerjan> `learn print_args_or_input Is a utility command that makes it easy to create a shell script that can be used either as a pipe or directly as a HackEgo command. Use as print_args_or_input "$@" | yourShellCode . See also shebang_args_or_input.
01:45:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'print_args_or_input': print_args_or_input Is a utility command that makes it easy to create a shell script that can be used either as a pipe or directly as a HackEgo command. Use as print_args_or_input "$@" | yourShellCode . See also shebang_args_or_input.
01:46:28 <oerjan> `slwd print_args_or_input//s,Is,is,
01:46:30 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input//print_args_or_input is a utility command that makes it easy to create a shell script that can be used either as a pipe or directly as a HackEgo command. Use as print_args_or_input "$@" | yourShellCode . See also shebang_args_or_input.
01:47:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you think mkx should be adjusted to allow for newlines?
01:49:14 <oerjan> `slwd print_args_or_input//s, , ,
01:49:16 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input//print_args_or_input is a utility command that makes it easy to create a shell script that can be used either as a pipe or directly as a HackEgo command. Use as print_args_or_input "$@" | yourShellCode . See also shebang_args_or_input.
01:51:39 <oerjan> `learn shebang_args_or_input is similar to print_args_or_input, but for other scripting languages like perl or python. E.g. if you have a python script that pipes stdin, replace the usual shebang line by #!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python .
01:51:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'shebang_args_or_input': shebang_args_or_input is similar to print_args_or_input, but for other scripting languages like perl or python. E.g. if you have a python script that pipes stdin, replace the usual shebang line by #!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python .
01:53:43 <shachaf> "python ."? but the current directory isn't a python program tdnh
01:54:49 <oerjan> `learn shebang_args_or_input is similar to print_args_or_input, but for other scripting languages like perl or python. E.g. if you have a python script that pipes stdin, replace the usual shebang line by "#!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python".
01:54:51 <HackEgo> Relearned 'shebang_args_or_input': shebang_args_or_input is similar to print_args_or_input, but for other scripting languages like perl or python. E.g. if you have a python script that pipes stdin, replace the usual shebang line by "#!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python".
01:56:06 <oerjan> `slwd print_args_or_input//s,Use as ,&",;s,Code ,Code",
01:56:07 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input//print_args_or_input is a utility command that makes it easy to create a shell script that can be used either as a pipe or directly as a HackEgo command. Use as "print_args_or_input "$@" | yourShellCode". See also shebang_args_or_input.
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01:56:31 <oerjan> `slwd print_args_or_input//s,Use as ,&',;s,Code ,Code',
01:56:33 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input//print_args_or_input is a utility command that makes it easy to create a shell script that can be used either as a pipe or directly as a HackEgo command. Use as 'print_args_or_input "$@" | yourShellCode'. See also shebang_args_or_input.
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02:30:32 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/rot13
02:33:33 <\oren\> `rot13 αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρςστυφχψωϊϋόύώ
02:33:34 <HackEgo> αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρςστυφχψωϊϋόύώ
02:46:37 <alercah> `rot12 αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρςστυφχψωϊϋόύώ
02:46:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rot12: not found
02:52:48 <oerjan> Jafet said something about it rotating the "LATIN" letters
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02:54:00 <oerjan> by decomposing iiuc, so it won't do anything to something that doesn't contain a latin letter part.
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03:17:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/rot13", line 28, in <module> \ sys.stdout.write(tr2(c).encode('utf8')) \ File "/hackenv/bin/rot13", line 20, in tr2 \ cs = [unichr(int(x, 16)) for x in U.decomposition(c).split()] \ ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 16: '<compat>'
03:18:07 <ais523> huh, that's one of the over-dotted letters that does rot13 correctly, into Ẏ
03:22:12 <ais523> I was planning to try one which doesn't have a composed equivalent, next
03:22:24 <ais523> because you don't have a full alphabet of dotted letters (just most of one)
03:24:18 <HackEgo> [U+013F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE DOT]
03:25:06 <oerjan> is that letter newly added or something
03:25:35 <oerjan> (because the python library is outdated)
03:26:11 <oerjan> hm wait it cannot be because that response is also from python iirc
03:27:08 <HackEgo> share/unic.txt \ share/units.dat
03:27:57 <oerjan> `` mv share/UnicodeData.txt u; unidecode Ŀ; mv u share/UnicodeData.txt
03:27:58 <HackEgo> [U+013F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE DOT]
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04:18:59 <HackEgo> [U+1E8E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y WITH DOT ABOVE]
04:19:10 <\oren\> that's a dot above, not a middle dot
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04:38:17 <Jafet> `` python -c $'import unicodedata as U\nprint U.decomposition(u"\\u013f")'
04:39:37 <HackEgo> [U+00D8 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH STROKE]
04:39:58 <oerjan> `` python -c $'import unicodedata as U\nprint U.decomposition(u"\\u00d8")'
04:40:53 <oerjan> `` python -c $'import unicodedata as U\nprint U.decomposition(u"\\u00d8")'
04:41:35 <Jafet> what's up doctørjan
04:41:43 <oerjan> why doesn't that decompose
04:42:05 <HackEgo> [U+0243 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B WITH STROKE]
04:42:24 <Jafet> the STROKE OVERLAY isn't diagonal
04:42:27 <oerjan> `` python -c $'import unicodedata as U\nprint U.decomposition(u"\\u0243")'
04:43:29 <oerjan> i guess it must use a different method to rot13 that then
04:43:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52496&oldid=52488 * Qwertyu63 * (+545)
04:44:07 <HackEgo> [U+00F8 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE] [U+0337 COMBINING SHORT SOLIDUS OVERLAY] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
04:44:19 <Jafet> why doesn't it decompose to that
04:47:48 <HackEgo> [U+0180 LATIN SMALL LETTER B WITH STROKE] [U+0335 COMBINING SHORT STROKE OVERLAY] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+0337 COMBINING SHORT SOLIDUS OVERLAY] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B]
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05:03:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52497&oldid=52496 * Qwertyu63 * (+500)
05:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52498 * Qwertyu63 * (+6642) Created page with "The Great Spell is an esolang in which you must create a powerful magic spell to create the effect you desire. To do this, you can create smaller spells with simpler effects t..."
05:07:24 <oerjan> Jafet: combiners go after the base letter hth
05:07:36 <oerjan> (although there are fonts that do this wrong)
05:07:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52499&oldid=52498 * Qwertyu63 * (-366)
05:08:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52500&oldid=52499 * Qwertyu63 * (-7)
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05:13:11 <\oren\> doesthiswork: you need a better font
05:13:39 <\oren\> speaking of which, I should work more on my font
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05:59:07 <zzo38> Do you know the working of Italian compass directions? It seems somewhat more logical than the modern method. Instead of "N by E", you have something more like "N by NE" ("Quarto di Tramontana verso Greco", where "Tramontana" is north and "Greco" is northeast)
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06:16:36 <Jafet> tramontana verso maestro
06:20:03 <Jafet> hmph, it was actually titled “intrigo internazionale”
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13:58:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Enedil * New user account
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14:07:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52501&oldid=52492 * Enedil * (+140) Introducing myself
14:08:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Systemf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52502 * Enedil * (+1483) Crafted the article
14:11:31 <HackEgo> mroman//mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
14:13:51 <int-e> @google "lossy encryption"
14:13:52 <lambdabot> https://eprint.iacr.org/2009/088.pdf
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15:44:37 <zzo38> I had idea designing an alternative card loading format for MIX that can work regardless of byte size, by specifying on the card which fields the number is going to be loaded into.
15:46:23 <zzo38> It only has to be valid characters punched into the card and does not have to resemble the format defined in the book at all, and the special case for the final transfer card also is not necessary you can just have a normal card that overwrites part of the loading routine.
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17:27:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52503&oldid=52474 * Hydrogenn * (-233)
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19:01:23 <mroman> are brainfuck algorithms for division/multiplication balanced?
19:04:39 <int-e> balanced meaning the < and > even out between [ and corresponding ]?
19:05:53 <mroman> I think this is a copy loop
19:05:54 <int-e> If so, it depends on the algorithm; for multiplication, the natural implementation is balanced; for division, I expect that most implementations are unbalanced because a balanced check for 0 is cumbersome.
19:06:09 <mroman> it copies tape[0] to tape[1] and tape[2] while destroying tape[0]
19:07:27 <int-e> [>[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]<<-] is a multiplication, *a b 0 0 --> *0 b (ab) 0, where * indicates the current pointer.
19:07:51 <int-e> *a b 0 0 --> *0 b 0 (ab)
19:08:13 <mroman> so it can be compiled as c1 = c0; c2 = c0; c0 = 0
19:08:26 <mroman> (c0 is tape[0] basically)
19:09:43 <mroman> copy without destruction would require another temporary cell.
19:09:52 <mroman> or can you actually copy a cell without killing it?
19:10:04 <int-e> some division code: [->-[>+>]>[+[-<+>]>>>+<]<<<<] *a b 0 0 0 0 [with b>1] --> *0 ? r 0 0 d ... the ? is actually b - r, I think.
19:10:34 <int-e> Well, every loop ends with one cell equal to 0.
19:11:24 <int-e> I don't have any balanced division code, I think. It's possible, but what would be the point... it'll be slower and larger.
19:13:16 <int-e> and of course, most interesting brainfuck code is unbalanced anyway, because that's the only way to access an arbitrary number of cells.
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19:42:26 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:42:38 <shachaf> treederwright was truly a prophet
19:42:52 <shachaf> who could've guessed that in 2017 there'd be an esolang called solidity?
19:43:46 -!- int-e has set topic: infernal maggots | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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19:51:36 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I had idea designing an alternative card loading format for MIX that can work regardless of byte size, by specifying on the card which fields the number is going to be loaded into." =>
19:54:06 <wob_jonas> I don't really see the point of that, since you can just use MIXAL to represent program or data regardless of byte size. Note that the CON pseudo-instruction allows you to write any value to a word split into any fields.
19:54:56 <wob_jonas> And the point of separating assembling and loading is to allow for a very small loader program, thus leading more free memory to the actual program loaded, which is important since MIX machines have few memory. Adding more complicated features to the loader format would defeat that.
19:56:17 <wob_jonas> The object format specified by TAOCP 1 is actually tailored so that it's specifically easy to load directly by a program on the same MIX machine, as opposed to just loaded by an emulator on a larger machine.
19:58:24 <wob_jonas> One addition one may want to add is a slightly modified object format for paper tape, for machines with no punch card reader attached, which isn't specified in vol 1, but would presumably be an exercise in volume 5, were it not so that MIX is obsolete so all editions of that volume will use MMIX instead.
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19:59:42 <zzo38> It doesn't say much about paper tape, it seems?
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20:10:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes. there very few remarks about paper tape, including one about the assembly format, but they're not specific enough for me to reconstruct how paper tape is actually used:
20:11:17 <wob_jonas> in particular, I can't even tell what sort of paper tape it's even supposed to use, that is, the 5-bit Baudot-code based tape with shift codes, or the 7-bit ASCII-based paper tape, or anything else.
20:12:01 <wob_jonas> Or how line boundaries are handled.
20:13:10 <wob_jonas> The punch card is more obvious, for the book makes it clear that these are 80 column punch cards, and that probably means 80 column 12 row Hollerith punch cards, on which people usually encode data in the traditional punch card encoding that resembles EBCDIC,
20:14:21 <wob_jonas> and indeed the MIX character set seems to be suitable for easy conversion to and from the punch card encoding on a decimal MIX machine, eg. there's a hole between I and J, just like how EBCDIC variants are suitable for conversion to and from punch card encoding variants on 8-bit binary machines.
20:14:47 <wob_jonas> The only reason the MIX character set isn't EBCDIC-based is that EBCDIC requires bytes that are at least 8 bit sized.
20:15:16 <wob_jonas> Also, punch cards are normally used as one fixed-size record/line per card, so the line ending is clear, but paper tape isn't used that way.
20:16:43 <APic> The Knuths pwn.
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20:21:09 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/Zezw so I've been working on something weird. I've been working on encoding nested lists using binary.
20:21:25 <imode> in an attempt to build a sort of "binary lisp". or something.
20:22:47 <imode> the idea works like a turning tarpit with 2 instructions. increment a counter, or decrement a counter. '|' is 'execute' and '*' is 'switch operation'.
20:23:27 <imode> you decode stuff by examining when you switch operations, when you decrement, etc.
20:25:40 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/bAGJ a more detailed readout... all I'm doing here is encoding the text by converting it into a binary string and replacing the 1's with '|*|' and the 0's with '*', stuffing a '*' in between them to indicate a delimiter as well.
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20:27:22 <imode> the <!>s indicate when you switch operations. you can decode a string by starting at whatever indentation level you want, waiting until an operation switch, reading the current indentation level, subtracting it from your base, subtracting one, shift it into a byte, skip the next operation switch, read the current indentation level... etc.
20:27:38 <imode> you could also trivially encode unary in whatever way you wanted.
20:28:14 <imode> in the bracket notation, '*' is really '{}'.
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20:43:31 <Jafet> oh, the wonderful world of succinct rank/select balanced parentheses data structures
20:46:37 <shachaf> Jafet: whoa whoa whoa, succinct rank/select balanced parentheses data structures?
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20:47:12 <shachaf> Oh, the thing imode is doing.
20:53:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52504&oldid=52497 * Qwertyu63 * (-6649) Replaced content with "Languages I've written:<br /> * Writer and implementer of [[Stack Up]]. * Writer of [[Set]]; article and interpreter by Matheus Avellar. * Writer of [[Emoji-gramming]]. *..."
21:04:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52505&oldid=52500 * Qwertyu63 * (+539)
21:04:44 <imode> so I see there are several papers underlying this.
21:05:07 <imode> rank/select based?
21:07:15 <imode> I think one of the interesting bits of my encoding (pun intended) is that it encodes the empty list as a *, rather than waste two bits for {}.
21:07:33 <Jafet> what does the empty string encode?
21:08:41 <imode> "*" encodes "{}". "***" encodes "{}{}", as the middle "*" acts as a 'delimiter'.
21:08:54 <imode> |***| encodes {{}{}}
21:09:21 <imode> ||*|*|*|| encodes {{{}}{{}}}.
21:10:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52506&oldid=52505 * Qwertyu63 * (-442)
21:11:14 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/4Ica/python here's my scratch python file.
21:14:27 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/HgXh/python here's a better one that actually generates the output you saw earlier.
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21:15:13 <imode> there's also a 'gather' function that generates all the integers in a certain range, converts them to binary, tests whether the form is valid, tests whether the equivalent naive encoding is valid, and displays some relevant stats.
21:15:35 <imode> was running it for 0 - 2^32 last night. I have a 74M file with every possible form.
21:16:04 <imode> the stats afterward is that my encoding produced 70,715,339 valid forms, while the same binary string encoding '{' and '
21:16:13 <imode> *and '}' produced 13,402,696
21:17:18 <imode> the naive encoding is also always shorter because I'm actually encoding ('{', '*', '}').
21:21:27 <imode> with some special cues you could get that binary encoding down to, well, an actual binary encoding.
21:22:50 <int-e> hmm. {}{} is not valid, right?
21:23:16 <imode> {}{} reduces to **, which is valid.
21:23:49 <imode> oh! right. my bad.
21:24:09 <imode> {}{} reduces to ***, because that middle '*' acts as a delimiter.
21:24:47 <imode> the first '*' switches the op to decrement, the second to increment, and the third to decrement. you always have to end up at zero by the end.
21:25:57 <imode> although.. hm. if it consists of nothing but state transitions, "**" is a valid form, so you could encode {}{} as "**".
21:27:47 <imode> from here, "**" reduces to "{}", which makes sense because my 'translate' function looks for state transitions. there's nothing to turn the state back to increment, so it just ignores the last '*'.
21:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52507&oldid=52506 * Qwertyu63 * (+96)
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21:35:30 <zzo38> Now I made the program to convert a number in degrees into the compass direction (such as "N", "NbE", "NNE", "NEbN", etc), with four, eight, sixteen, or thirty-two points, and you can also alter the abbreviation for "by". You can also convert the angle into quadrant bearing, octant bearing, degrees/arcminutes/arcseconds, astrological signs, sidereal hours, and geographical longitude/latitude.
21:38:56 <zzo38> I don't know if some of the important kind of format may be missing
21:42:21 <int-e> NNEN would be a logical version of NbE :-P
21:43:15 <zzo38> Yes, or "NbNE" a bit similar to the Italian method.
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22:08:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52508&oldid=51962 * Qwertyu63 * (-206)
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22:59:35 <zzo38> The inspiration of what?
23:00:12 <rdococ> idk. esolangs. and other esothings.
23:02:39 <int-e> . o O ( good job on that OCR... for example, "window" became "aiindoai" )
23:07:43 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ocr.png :-)
23:10:01 <zzo38> Then you will have to reprogram the OCR for that style of fonts I suppose
23:10:51 <int-e> I didn't do the OCR, I guess whatever gog uses to scan game manuals does that automatically.
23:11:41 <int-e> . o O ( tempting, but shachaf will complain because it's not wisdomy enough: `learn An aiindoai is a badly OCR'd window. )
23:12:33 <zzo38> Can you retype it yourself and then tell them to use your version?
23:12:52 <int-e> Maybe but why would I do that.
23:13:42 <int-e> I'm really just talking about this because "aiindoai" struck me as cute.
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23:17:11 <shachaf> int-e: Why would shachaf complain?
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23:17:44 <int-e> because shachaf always complains
23:18:31 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
23:31:19 <imode> Jafet: thank you for the term succinct datastructure. I have never seen it before and now I have some research to do. :)
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23:33:23 <imode> never knew that this was a thing. talk about rediscovery.
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00:03:43 <zzo38> I found a horoscope for the beginning of the universe. However, that does not make sense, because the Earth and Sun (and the other objects plotted on the horoscope) did not exist at that time, and it also shows impossible positions of Mercury and Venus (since they orbit the Sun closer than the Earth does, the angle between them and the Sun, as measured from the Earth, can't be too long), and it includes the ascendant, which requires you to know wha
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00:14:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52509&oldid=52508 * Qwertyu63 * (-13)
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01:26:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52510&oldid=52504 * Qwertyu63 * (+16)
01:28:36 * Sgeo_ misses Yamaha XGPlayer
01:29:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52511&oldid=52509 * Qwertyu63 * (+195)
01:29:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52512&oldid=52511 * Qwertyu63 * (-6)
01:40:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52513&oldid=52312 * Qwertyu63 * (-7)
01:45:24 <zzo38> Now I made a partial specification of RogueVM (I had something else before called "RogueVM" but I don't have it and anyways this new one is going to be better anyways). It is: http://sprunge.us/JUZF Please do you make any comment/question/complaint/suggestion of it? Also, possibly afterward, it can be possible to port Nethack into RogueVM too (if a C compiler is written that can target RogueVM).
01:58:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52514&oldid=52513 * Qwertyu63 * (+62)
02:05:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52515&oldid=52514 * Qwertyu63 * (+251)
02:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52516&oldid=52510 * Qwertyu63 * (+217)
02:17:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52517&oldid=52516 * Qwertyu63 * (-3)
02:17:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52518&oldid=52515 * Qwertyu63 * (-22)
02:23:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52519&oldid=52517 * Qwertyu63 * (-12)
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02:52:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: primeval bismarck | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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05:33:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52520&oldid=52478 * LyricLy * (+150)
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11:13:43 <\oren\> muhuhahahahaha! they said I was MAD, but the mission will still be completed as long as I have one wheel left!
11:13:52 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/ysHTwSu
11:16:06 <shachaf> please tag ksp content twh
11:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PattuX * New user account
11:18:17 <PattuX> wow, your bot is really full stalker mode :D
11:22:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52521&oldid=41652 * Aardwolf * (-27) updated link, which moved
11:22:10 <HackEgo> PattuX: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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15:13:35 <HackEgo> 1/2:fundamental theorem of taneb//The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing not involving sex, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing not involving sex that Taneb did not invent. \ bf//See
15:13:39 <HackEgo> 2/2:: brainfuck \ lazy//La \ defenestration//Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials. \ people who taneb is not//elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
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16:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMATIMU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52522 * Scoppini * (+5935) Created page with "'''SMATIMU''', or ''the Self-Modifying Application That Is Mildly Useful'', is an extension to the [[SMATINY]] language with the intention of making it slightly more useful fo..."
16:26:10 <rdococ> Riddle: Is it possible to eat water?
16:28:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMATIMU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52523&oldid=52522 * Scoppini * (+0)
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16:34:26 <__kerbal__> Weird question: Is it possible to construct a Turing Machine within Geometry Dash, or otherwise prove that GD is Turing Complete (provided that user-input is either disallowed or restricted to certain moments in machine execution)?
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16:37:45 <fungot> boily: ( ( but it's)) amazing huh well are are you in uh do you go to one of the
16:38:15 <int-e> rdococ: don't eat yellow snow
16:38:56 <rdococ> Who'd eat snow anyway?
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20:07:54 <zzo38> I did not yet write in the commands for input of RogueVM, and will have to consider how they will work, do you have idea? I thought some kinds of input will be: command input, numeric input, text input, coordinate input, menu input, boolean input; any others? And other things related to these such as their parameters? One thing I did thought is all of them have one operand being the command level number.
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20:50:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52524&oldid=52501 * PattuX * (+229)
20:50:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52525&oldid=44556 * PattuX * (+145) add interpreter
21:06:18 <PattuX> ^ the given "Hello World!" does not work with my interpreter even though I followed the specs (and I don't see any way to interpret the specs so that it would work...) and the user who created the language is inactive. any prefered ways to handle this?
21:07:15 <zzo38> Mention it here and on the talk page
21:10:47 <Jafet> shouldn't the example program print He World
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21:12:21 <PattuX> well it doesnt do that either q:
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21:19:24 <Jafet> what does it print, then?
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21:38:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52526 * PattuX * (+1010) Created page with "== Hello World! == Given example program starts with Day 1 Call prisoners 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Squat. Maintain eye contact with prisoner 1 for 72 seconds. Shank..."
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21:42:19 <PattuX> and ÿ is 255, which is my MAX_RESPECT value
21:44:18 <int-e> I don't see how this is supposed to work either. The whole thing is kind of crap.
21:45:19 <int-e> "Keep in mind that [eye contact] also increases the clock by n."
21:46:48 <int-e> That's fine, so do the events that happen every 10th tick also take place? Do they affect the prisoner that is being stared at?
21:50:14 <int-e> Anyway I feel I'd rather see another brainfuck derivative.
21:50:29 <Jafet> actually, shanking prisoner 1 leaves prisoner 2's respect at 5 so it becomes j instead of e
21:51:17 <PattuX> with weird interpretations you can make it so it prints e (see talk), but even with that it fails
21:51:58 <PattuX> "On every tenth tick of the clock, *all* prisoners are updated", so i assume also the prisoner being stared at
21:52:04 <Jafet> on the other hand my respect for this language is at 0 so whatever
21:52:22 <PattuX> anyway, the guy who invented it probably doesnt even remember it, so w/e
22:01:09 <Jafet> revolution 9 is still possibly the best brainfuck substitution
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22:26:38 <Phantom__Hoover> what i like most about that language is it's based on an obscure reddit post, which was made into an obscure youtube video, four years before that language's article was made
22:29:25 <Jafet> it's based on one sentence from the post
22:29:45 <Jafet> well, half a sentence
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03:25:49 <zzo38> We can invent the computer design that is like half between MIX and MMIX (almost), and, can be call MDIX.
03:26:43 <shachaf> zzo38: But I thought you said that MIX wasn't referring to a number.
03:26:49 <HackEgo> 1/2:smell//Smell is a sense, which is particularly strong in old factory sites. \ the u//The U are a very mad people. \ program//A program is an image created by means of prography. \ warranty//HACKEGO COMES WITHOUT WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND IS UNFIT FOR ANY PURPOSE, INCLUDING THE PURPOSE OF BEING UNFIT FOR ANYTHING. Its warranty has expire
03:26:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:d. \ roujo//Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
03:27:05 <zzo38> shachaf: It is referring to a number, but not a year number.
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03:27:37 <shachaf> Why would it refer to a number?
03:28:25 <zzo38> It is an average of the numbers of many other computers of the time (rounded down), apparently.
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03:38:55 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you going to ICFP this year?
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03:44:40 <zzo38> I do not think so. What day and where is it anyways?
03:50:45 <zzo38> I do not expect to be in England in September
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04:20:26 <zzo38> I tried loading a MMIX program with mmotype and it says "File was created Thu Jun 16 12:35:08 1881", even though I know that isn't the case. Why it says that?
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05:26:54 <imode> book encoding is a neat hack for really tiny graphs.
05:27:57 <imode> just encode the graph as pages of planar graphs and concatenate them together.
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05:57:49 <zzo38> Do you have an example of that?
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06:06:06 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_embedding
06:08:50 <zzo38> OK, that picture explains it
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08:01:11 <zzo38> I have this way to round up to one less than a power of two in MMIX: SRU $0,in,8; ZSNZ $1,$0,255; MOR $0,#FF7F3F1F0F070301,in; OR out,$0,$1 (This assumes the input is a 16-bit number) Is there a better way?
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08:02:43 <shachaf> Meaning, set all the bits lower than the highest set bit?
08:02:59 <zzo38> That is the same thing
08:05:28 <zzo38> (For a 8-bit number, the third instruction by itself is sufficient)
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08:20:41 <zzo38> There is also the way to reverse the bits of a 64-bit number in MMIX, which uses MOR twice, with the constant #0102040810204080, but once in the Y position and once in the Z position.
08:21:57 <zzo38> I think the MOR instruction of MMIX really is useful.
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08:26:57 <zzo38> MXOR has less uses that I can find, but it may be good too
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08:31:33 <shachaf> Obviously the one you mentioned has mor uses.
08:38:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52527&oldid=52520 * LyricLy * (+89)
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08:40:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52528&oldid=52527 * LyricLy * (+58) /* ly.py */
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08:47:05 <int-e> A single MXOR can be used to convert 8 bytes simultaneously from/to Gray code. Unfortunately, that's the most convincing use of MXOR that I have so far, disregarding the fact that in many cases, MXOR and MOR can be used interchangably, because one of the matrices is a permutation matrix. It seems that MXOR should help for some computations in GF(2^8) at least.
08:50:44 <zzo38> I did not think of Gray code, although I did realize the other thing you mention
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13:31:58 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/Witch_chan2000/status/879189141954625539
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14:34:28 <Jafet> bad wikipedia articles are a gold mine of ideas
14:34:53 <Jafet> A program is how a robot decides when or how to do something.
14:35:13 <Jafet> a Program is a group of related projects managed in a coordinated manner to obtain benefits and control
14:35:40 <Jafet> the source code of a program is the design for the program that it produces
14:35:52 <Jafet> A program was a stack of layers.
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17:08:48 <\oren\> Lol I have a huge office to myself right now. we got a second office recently to store more programmers in but noone wants to be the first guy on the new office
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18:17:07 <Taneb> I've just had a few rather fun days in Italy
18:19:48 <shachaf> i was all, like, whoa, dude
18:20:04 <Taneb> That was in Venice!
18:20:40 <shachaf> I saw a good cat last night but I didn't photograph.
18:26:34 <HackEgo> 1/1:warrigal//Warrigal is #esoteric's resident dingo. It sometimes pretends to be a human. \ yeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeesh. \ the//the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure \ hacker//Jim Hacker is a former British prime minister. \ companion cube//There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
18:27:22 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
18:30:47 <\oren\> Argh, the coffee machine is very advanced, but you still have to take the milk carafe out of the fridge and put it back each time
18:31:14 <LKoen> I've seen coffee machines that made lattes
18:31:31 <\oren\> Maybe in 2020 we'll finally have an integrated milk chiller
18:34:09 <\oren\> 식료품groceries is good music for blasting in a completely empty empty office
18:45:29 <imode> thanks for the weird music \oren\.
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19:08:20 <Jafet> `` cd wisdom; for f in ye*sh; do \? $f; done
19:08:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/?: line 5: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /hackenv/bin/?: line 5: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /hackenv/bin/?: line 5: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /hackenv/bin/?: line 5: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /hackenv/bin/?: line 5: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /hackenv/bin/?: line 5: cd: wisdom: Not a directory \ /hackenv/bin/?: line 5:
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19:09:55 <Jafet> `` cd wisdom; for f in ye*sh; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done
19:09:56 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeesh//See yeeeeesh. \ yeeeeesh//See yeeeesh. \ yeeeesh//See yeeesh. \ yeeesh//See yeesh.
19:10:54 <HackEgo> 6202:2015-11-10 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeesh/See yeesh.
19:11:12 <int-e> `dowg yeeeeeeeeeesh
19:11:18 <HackEgo> 6229:2015-11-19 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeeeeeeesh/See yeeeeeeeeesh.
19:11:30 <int-e> `dowg yeeeeeeeeesh
19:11:36 <HackEgo> 10346:2017-03-04 <shachäf> forget yeeeeeeeeesh \ 6228:2015-11-19 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeeeeeesh/See yeeeeeeeesh.
19:12:10 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
19:13:05 <Jafet> `` echo wisdom/no*dl
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19:14:31 <int-e> shachaf: why'd you "`forget" that one but not the others?
19:15:05 <shachaf> So you'll have something to ask.
19:15:45 <HackEgo> 11080:2017-07-10 <boil̈y> revert \ 11079:2017-07-10 <boil̈y> forget yeeeeesh \ 6200:2015-11-10 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeesh/See yeeeesh.
19:15:48 <int-e> `cd wisdom; echo ye*sh
19:15:49 <HackEgo> invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
19:15:53 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo ye*sh
19:15:54 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh yeeeeeeeesh yeeeeeeesh yeeeeeesh yeeeeesh yeeeesh yeeesh
19:16:09 <HackEgo> 7819:2016-05-06 <Moon_̈_> mkx bin/cd//erro "invalid command ( \xcd\xa1\xc2\xb0 \xcd\x9c\xca\x96 \xcd\xa1\xc2\xb0)" \ 7818:2016-05-06 <Moon_̈_> mkx bin/cd//erro invalid command ( \xcd\xa1\xc2\xb0 \xcd\x9c\xca\x96 \xcd\xa1\xc2\xb0) \ 7817:2016-05-06 <Moon_̈_> mkx bin/cd//echo stop trying, it doesnt work
19:16:35 <shachaf> cd oughtn't be a command anyway.
19:16:41 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/ye*sh
19:16:59 <shachaf> Except I once wrote a cd program that attaches to its parent with ptrace and changes its current directory.
19:17:24 <int-e> Oh it's part of the moon episode.
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20:43:41 <HackEgo> 1/3:virgil//Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families. \ dingbat//dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft. \ usb3//USB3 hosts are packaged with a full independent implementation of
20:43:44 <HackEgo> 2/3: the older USB/USB2, going through separate pins in the same socket. It is similar to DVI, except you need a separate passive converter stub to plug VGA monitor to DVI socket, but you don't need one to plug a USB client to an USB3 host. \ ngram model//An ngram model is just a Markov model with a sliding window state. \ associativity//Associativ
20:43:47 <HackEgo> 3/3:ity means that h(th) = (ht)h, if you're flexible about it.
20:44:49 <HackEgo> 1/2:255) <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then \ 763) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything \ 525) <Taneb> Mayor says we need to make aluminum items <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, PH says you need to make lava items. \ 609) <ais523> the parser would be even simpler if I
20:44:51 <HackEgo> 2/2: didn't try to do type inference in it \ 127) <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
20:45:16 <shachaf> Taneb: Don't you mean aluminium?
20:45:42 <Taneb> shachaf, Ideally, yes
21:00:38 <Jafet> this fosforic spelling dispute is sodum
21:02:00 <Jafet> apparently the element named for copernicus is copernicium
21:02:53 <shachaf> Are you sure that's not just a variant of copper?
21:03:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Scoppini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52529&oldid=44156 * Scoppini * (+14)
21:04:04 <Jafet> as surely as 1 and 1 make 2
21:04:34 <shachaf> you gotta tell me if you're a copernicus
21:04:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52530&oldid=52448 * Scoppini * (+14) /* S */
21:05:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52531&oldid=52530 * Scoppini * (+0) /* S */
21:10:53 <Jafet> there's also pernicium, named for being pernicious
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21:13:46 <shachaf> Please see http://feelingmyage.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/periodictable.gif
21:14:11 <imode> what the hell. can any of you see me?
21:14:30 <imode> or am I just typing to a dead terminal.
21:15:32 <shachaf> You feel like you are being watched.
21:15:43 <imode> oh wow, okay. so this network doesn't block IRC, but it locks web browsing behind guest access.
21:16:36 <shachaf> I think there are easier ways to check whether you're connected to IRC, for example /msg imode test
21:16:59 <imode> shachaf: yeah, I figured. but I was so dumbstruck that I didn't think of it. :P
21:26:13 <\oren\> So I guess the main reason I even need to come to work is so I can move a jumper and push a red button now and then
21:27:32 <\oren\> er, wait not jumper. breaker?
21:27:58 <\oren\> the thingy that resets after a power problem
21:29:42 <shachaf> \oren\: isn't "breaker" the name of your current build system hth
21:30:13 <\oren\> the component I'm working on now uses boost jam
21:32:21 <\oren\> anyway, luckily, it seems I het the right red button
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22:12:26 <zzo38> I commonly use "PING ME" to test if IRC connection is working (the server will respond PONG if it is OK)
22:12:53 <ais523> most clients do that automatically every now and then
22:13:44 <ais523> \oren\: "circuit breaker" is the normal phrase in British English
22:14:05 <ais523> referring to a fuse-like component that works electromechanically rather than via physically catching fire, and thus is resettable rather than needing to be replaced
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22:37:31 <zzo38> My own client automatically responds to the server's pings (unless you turn off that function), but does not emit its own automatically
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23:18:37 <tswett> I'm pondering what I might use as a "home theory" for math.
23:19:21 <tswett> A lot of mathematicians seem to "live in" ZFC. They consider the axioms of ZFC to be true statements, and they don't worry too much about their theorems not generalizing outside of ZFC.
23:20:47 <tswett> I'd call myself a bit more of a skeptic.
23:21:32 <tswett> I'll admit the axioms of extensionality, specification, pairing, union, replacement, and infinity.
23:21:40 <tswett> Power sets seem suspect.
23:21:49 <tswett> And the axiom of choice? Hahaha.
23:25:02 <tswett> I want my home theory to be something I can actually think of a model of.
23:25:46 <shachaf> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.6543.pdf suggests otherwise.
23:26:15 <tswett> It suggests that power sets *don't* seem suspect?
23:27:38 <shachaf> "Perhaps you will wake up tomorrow, check your email, and find an announcement that ZFC is inconsistent. Apparently, someone has taken the ZFC axioms, performed a long string of logical deductions, and arrived at a contradiction. The work has been checked and re-checked. There is no longer any doubt."
23:27:43 <shachaf> "How would you react? In particular, how would you feel about the implications for your own work? All your theorems would still be true under ZFC, but so too would their negations. Would you conclude that your life’s work had been destroyed?"
23:29:38 <ais523> I don't normally work in ZFC, but if I did, I'd try to identify which axiom was incorrect and see what could be proved without it
23:29:54 <ais523> the axiom of choice is a big suspect in that respect
23:30:18 <tswett> But in ZFC is inconsistent, ZF is inconsistent, too.
23:30:27 <ais523> although, I thought the axiom of choice had been proven to be independent of ZF? if so, that implies that ZFC is consistent by definition
23:30:39 <ais523> (if ZF is inconsistent, nothing is independent of it)
23:30:40 <tswett> Oh, so ZF is consistent now? :)
23:30:42 <ais523> I guess the proof could be wrong
23:31:34 <int-e> You can have the same collapse in the meta theory
23:31:45 <int-e> then ZF could be proved both consistent and inconsistent
23:32:07 <ais523> OTOH it'd leave me sceptical of the proof that ZFC were inconsistent
23:32:20 <ais523> on the basis that there's no reason to conclude that that proof were "about" ZFC
23:32:22 <shachaf> british spellings are so odd sometimes
23:32:43 <ais523> US spells "sceptical" with a k, right?
23:32:51 <ais523> that looks bizarre to me
23:33:05 <tswett> "Sceptical" is still pronounced like "skeptical", right?
23:33:20 <ais523> yes, the start is like "sceptre"
23:33:36 <ais523> (which is also spelled differently in US English, but it's the end of the word that's spelled differently, not the start)
23:33:38 <shachaf> Wait, how do you pronounce "sceptre"?
23:34:10 <ais523> although come to think of it I probably pronounce it incorrectly
23:34:18 <shachaf> I always thought it was "septer", and https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=define:sceptre agrees.
23:34:24 <ais523> it'd make sence if the c were silent
23:34:41 <ais523> my written vocabulary is rather larger than my spoken vocabulary
23:34:47 <ais523> because most of my social interaction is online nowadays
23:34:56 <shachaf> I learned a lot of my English from reading.
23:35:04 <shachaf> But since then I've spoken a fair amount.
23:35:14 <tswett> So lemme figure out the... uh... what do you call a property of a category that asserts that it contains objects of a particular type?
23:35:15 <shachaf> I still have a noticeable non-native accent, though.
23:35:32 <tswett> Sure, a "has-property".
23:35:41 <shachaf> "gains products until end of turn"
23:35:47 <ais523> "type" here is informal-English, rather than the technical programming meaning?
23:35:49 <tswett> Lemme figure out the has-properties I'm willing to admit.
23:36:03 <tswett> So cartesian closedness is a has-property.
23:36:10 <tswett> A category is cartesian closed if it has exponentials.
23:36:19 <shachaf> "your categories have flying. your opponents' categories lose flying and cannot gain flying."
23:36:28 <ais523> tswett: we call those commutativity properties
23:36:39 <tswett> I'll take finite limits and coproducts (for $200, Alex).
23:36:46 <ais523> i.e. a property that a category obeys a certain commutative diagram
23:37:00 <ais523> some of them have distinguished objects or morphisms that are necessary to make the diagrams work
23:37:16 <shachaf> Or a certain family of commutative diagrams?
23:37:28 <shachaf> Are commutative diagrams different from equations?
23:37:28 <tswett> ais523: that sounds like it means there are commutativity properties that aren't "has-properties".
23:37:45 <tswett> Well, a commutative diagram is essentially a finite collection of equations, right?
23:37:50 <tswett> Unless it's an infinite diagram, of course.
23:37:50 <ais523> shachaf: normally they're like equations but with naturality requirements
23:38:06 <shachaf> Commutative diagrams have naturality requirements?
23:38:09 <ais523> I could explain this better if I understood it myself
23:39:40 <tswett> I'll also take nLab's "parametrized natural numbers objects".
23:45:17 <ais523> shachaf: seems there /isn't/ a naturality requirement; I just looked it up
23:45:27 <ais523> so right, just equations
23:45:33 <tswett> I can, in fact, think of a model of this "theory"... I think...
23:45:40 <tswett> The objects are all primitive recursive subsets of N.
23:45:48 <tswett> And the morphisms are all primitive recursive functions.
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23:46:20 <tswett> Where I guess a "primitive recursive subset" would have to be defined as a set whose membership function is a primitive recursive function.
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23:48:40 <tswett> Except I don't know if that actually works...
23:49:51 <tswett> That category "obviously" has products, coproducts, and a PNNO. So the only question is whether or not it has pullbacks.
23:50:21 <tswett> Yeah, it totally has pullbacks.
00:02:24 <tswett> It is not cartesian closed.
00:02:39 <tswett> How do I know? nLab kind of implies it.
00:03:54 <tswett> Does it have a subobject classifier? Umm... oh boy, that's an interesting one.
00:04:26 <tswett> If there's a subobject classifier, presumably it's the set 2.
00:05:29 <shachaf> Categories that have a subobject classifier that isn't 2 are TG
00:07:14 <tswett> Om is a subobject classifier if every monomorphism A -> B is a pullback of B -> Om along the "true morphism" 1 -> Om.
00:07:55 <tswett> The arrow B -> Om has to be unique, in particular.
00:08:35 <tswett> So, consider the empty monomorphism from {} to {1}.
00:08:55 <tswett> This has to correspond to exactly one function {1} -> Om.
00:09:28 <tswett> So Om has to contain exactly one element that isn't the "true" element.
00:09:46 <tswett> Is 2 actually a subobject classifier at all?
00:10:25 <tswett> Given an injective primitive recursive function A -> B, is there a primitive recursive function B -> 2 which picks out its image?
00:14:28 <tswett> There can't be an algorithm for *finding* such a primitive recursive function, at least. I don't think.
00:15:10 <tswett> Let A be the set of even integers greater than or equal to 4...
00:15:16 <tswett> And let B just be the natural numbers.
00:15:51 <tswett> Define f(x) = x, if x is the sum of two prime numbers; otherwise, the smallest odd number that is not the value of f(y) for y smaller than x.
00:16:17 <tswett> Then the image of f contains 1 if and only if Goldbach's conjecture is false.
00:17:17 <tswett> Now, the function B -> 2 picking out the image of f is, in fact, primitive recursive. We just don't know which primitive recursive function it is.
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01:51:00 <tswett> All right, what was that algebraic geometry textbook that I'd been looking through.
01:51:41 <shachaf> The senator? I don't think she wrote an algebraic geometry book.
01:51:45 <shachaf> Or do you mean the magician?
01:52:23 <tswett> I mean my high school classmate.
01:52:29 <tswett> I'm wondering if the textbook was literally that person.
01:53:29 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it was Perrin.
01:56:40 <tswett> "Is the set {(t, sin t) | t \in R} algebraic?"
01:58:02 <tswett> Because it... has countably infinitely many intersections with (t, 0)?
01:58:23 <tswett> Because it does not lie entirely on a line but does lie between two parallel lines?
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03:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52532&oldid=52528 * LyricLy * (+1177)
03:17:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[A programming language is a formal computer language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language that specifies a set of instructions that can be used to produce various kinds of output.]]: Per spec
03:25:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A programming language is a formal language that specifies a set of instructions that can be used to produce various kinds of output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52535&oldid=52533 * Oerjan * (-231) Lazily update
03:28:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52536&oldid=52531 * Oerjan * (+5) /* A */
03:29:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52537&oldid=51008 * Oerjan * (+5) update
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03:34:35 <doesthiswork> What happened? those definitions have no visible in jokes.
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03:35:56 <oerjan> it's an out joke, i guess.
03:36:16 <oerjan> aka wikipedia's first sentence changed, thus does the language.
03:38:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Aplifcldtcitampac]]": This redirect is now *completely* meaningless, rather than *almost completely*.
03:43:25 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i see from history that it's name has been "butt" rather recently (if briefly)
03:44:07 <oerjan> anyway the current form has been _mostly_ there since 29 April.
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03:47:12 <oerjan> in the "formerly known as" part, i guess...
03:48:10 <oerjan> (might have to reformat that at some point)
03:49:20 <doesthiswork> I mean programs don't have a way to indicate which version they depend on
03:50:04 <oerjan> fortunately, each version doesn't have a lot of programs.
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03:50:32 <oerjan> actually, each program contains all the information needed to discern the version
03:52:37 <oerjan> the current sentence is pretty much factually wrong, alas.
03:53:39 <oerjan> way too limited, which is ironical because it was changed in response to a talk page comment that complained the _original definition_ was too limited.
04:00:16 <oerjan> <int-e> `` rm wisdom/ye*sh <-- nooooooooooooooo
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04:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52538&oldid=49718 * Wheatwizard * (+122) Added the PPCG polyglot
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04:30:14 <zzo38> HAKMEM says that to swap two bits in an accumulator, you can write "TRCE A,BITS" three times, but I don't know what is TRCE. Do you know?
04:32:03 <Mr2001> http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/opcodes.html
04:32:08 <Mr2001> HAKMEM is all about the PDP, isn't it?
04:32:35 <zzo38> Thank you I will look at that document
04:36:41 <zzo38> It says "test bits right with complement and skip if equal" I am not sure what "test bits right" means, though.
04:39:40 <zzo38> That document does not explain much about the instructions.
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04:46:01 <zzo38> O, I looked at other files in the same directory and found some more information
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04:55:20 <zzo38> Now I read about what that instruction actually means, and now I can see how it is working.
04:56:19 <doesthiswork> I can see why they were proud enough to put it in the hackmem
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05:09:34 <Mr2001> I mean, if I had a dollar for every time I've needed to swap two bits in an accumulator in fewer than four instructions
05:10:39 <Mr2001> ...I would've just paid for the extra electricity it took to do it the straightforward way, and kept the other 99.99999 cents
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05:28:14 <zzo38> Mr2001: OK, but what instruction set are you writing the programs for anyways?
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06:07:37 <HackEgo> olist 1085: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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06:17:02 <imode> I just compressed a graph of four nodes down to 1.625 bits.
06:17:09 <imode> four nodes, three edges.
06:17:22 <imode> err, not bits, bytes.
06:17:37 <shachaf> Is there a good succinct representation of prefix trees?
06:17:51 <imode> plenty if you hunt.,
06:18:04 <imode> I'm just doing graphs.
06:20:02 <shachaf> I don't know of one for either.
06:20:37 <imode> it's actually pretty neat.
06:21:02 <imode> I started working on encoding planar graphs then I figured out that what I was doing was book encoding.
06:21:05 <imode> or book embedding.
06:21:44 <imode> planar graphs are really easy. given a list of n nodes, say 5, list out n marks of *.
06:22:08 <imode> *****. then, for each edge like 1 <-> 3, place a { after the first node in the pair, and a } after the second node.
06:23:01 <imode> so the string becomes *{**}**. adjacency queries become questions about enclosure.
06:24:19 <imode> for example, to test whether node 1 is connected to node 3, all you have to do is navigate to node 1, skip ahead to the first {, and then skip to the matching }. if the index of the third node in the string is less than the index of the matching }, then they're connected. if not, they aren't.
06:28:57 <imode> there's some other stuff you need like backtracking from a closing to an opening, because each opening and closing paren after the *s represents an edge.
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06:39:20 <imode> there's a twist though: one sequence like this only encodes a planar graph. if you want to encode a nonplanar graph, you have to use book embedding to encode multiple planar graphs with the edges you want.
06:39:46 <imode> but it's as simple as concatenating the strings of bits together with a delimiter.
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06:41:06 <imode> compressing graphs like this gives me some new insight on how to cram a fuckton of data onto small devices.
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07:27:38 <zzo38> What new insight is that?
07:29:55 <imode> in that if you support basic bitwise ops you can store massive static datastructures with efficient query ops on extremely small devices.
07:30:05 <oerjan> imode going compression crackpot in 3,2...
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07:30:44 <imode> compared to pointer-based stuff.
07:31:31 <imode> oerjan: crackpot huh? :P
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07:31:47 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that's a thing.
07:32:21 <imode> "yeah I can store 10Tb on this flashdrive."
07:32:58 <oerjan> http://goodmath.scientopia.org/2010/08/03/revenge-of-the-return-of-the-compression-idiot/
07:33:52 <imode> "good luck kid I'm behind seven archives."
07:35:17 <imode> oh I can compress any file down to 50K. just don't ask me for it back.
07:35:53 <zzo38> I have done compression stuff before, many kind of experiment, making better compression for Sokoban levels, for MegaZeux worlds, etc. These are specific cases rather than general-purpose compression though
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07:36:30 <imode> thing is, it's not really compression.
07:37:12 <imode> the graph as specified above is still usable in place. with some rudimentary rewriting you can insert new edges, remove edges...
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07:41:32 <imode> it's definitely not the ideal representation but it gets damn close.
07:44:13 <imode> "This was with random data. At least that's what people call it. Bzip2 data. (It looks pretty random to me.)"
07:44:32 <imode> "I don't know what this stuff represents so it's random."
07:44:43 <imode> crackpots are funny people.
07:45:37 <doesthiswork> just not one you can use for compression or other mathematical purposes
07:46:28 <oerjan> you might bayes other things on it
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08:01:43 <shachaf> newsham: 9 is a lot of years
08:02:16 <oerjan> it's the most you can have without running out of digits
08:02:33 <shachaf> Yep. Time to start over after that.
08:03:25 <oerjan> you can only use hex years if you've been hexed to have 8 fingers on each hand hth
08:04:07 <Hoolootwo> if you were hexed, you'd have 6 fingers, right?
08:04:22 <Hoolootwo> you would have to be octed to have 8 fingers
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08:26:58 <int-e> English has upset me once again. Why is there a stress on the *second* syllable in "superfluous"?
08:30:05 <izabera> int-e: because if you stress the next syllabe it sounds like super-fluorescent
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08:36:16 <Taneb> int-e, that upsets me too
08:36:36 <oerjan> int-e: looks like it's the stress inherited from latin...
08:36:55 <oerjan> where it's entirely logical.
08:37:44 <oerjan> (the -ous is from -us, not -osus)
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10:29:28 <rdococ> "Would you like tea or coffee?" "True."
10:32:46 <rdococ> "Okay, would you like tea xor coffee?" "True." "Hm. Would you like tea?" "Superposition. I haven't observed the details of my desire for a hot beverage yet." "..."
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10:52:02 <Taneb> rdococ, is it OK if I answer "False" to the first question?
10:52:38 <Jafet> is it necessary for the possibility that you drink coffee to entail an obligation for you to eventually drink tea?
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12:16:57 <rdococ> Taneb, it would make more sense than answering True.
12:17:02 <rdococ> at least to an ordinary person.
12:17:25 <rdococ> Jafet, yes but only if you're British,
12:17:41 <Taneb> rdococ, it's amazing how surprised people get when I want neither tea nor coffee
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12:27:03 <HackEgo> PattuX: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:08:09 <alercah> https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2017/07/adobe-flash-update.html
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17:41:08 <Vorpal> alercah: hm, I wonder what happens to old parts of homestar runner? Didn't it use to have flash games? I haven't followed it in recent years.
17:42:15 <Vorpal> oh wait, I'm thinking of homestuck
17:42:22 <Vorpal> homestar runner was always all flash wasn't it?
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19:03:40 <Taneb> ...I'm sure I used to own more than zero pens
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19:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52539&oldid=52512 * Qwertyu63 * (+1)
19:50:37 <\oren\> Taneb: check under the carpet
19:53:21 <izabera> did someone invent a bf equivalent language where each symbol is a digit from 0 to 7 and you need a space between symbols and no other symbol is valid?
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21:27:10 <deltab> Vorpal: I don't know about homestar runner, but in general some animations will be recorded as video and posted on YouTube; some will be converted to JavaScript (Google has a tool for that, for adverts); and there are Flash player implementations both native and web
21:27:53 <Vorpal> deltab: also homestuck and similar
21:28:17 <Vorpal> it had interactive stuff though
21:28:27 <deltab> and the massive game repositories like Kongregate
21:28:42 <Vorpal> yeah, newgrounds it the other big one right?
21:31:54 <deltab> http://blog.kongregate.com/html5-is-here/
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22:11:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52540&oldid=51395 * Kerbal * (+289) /* Potentially Stupid Question */ new section
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00:43:47 <oerjan> huh a spam that manages to look _almost_ genuinely from a company i've actually used and which could conceivably have my email. too bad it ruined it with the completely out of place AOL from address...
00:44:27 <shachaf> trying to get oerjan to click on my fishy links
00:45:06 <oerjan> i doubt it's you, or that you even know which company i got this laptop from.
00:45:52 <oerjan> oh right, the actually link is goo.gl, also fishy.
00:46:12 <shachaf> oerjan: It's an Asus, isn't it?
00:46:20 <shachaf> Though you probably bought it from some Norwegian company.
00:49:04 <oerjan> hm wait _was_ it that company, or the other big one...
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00:49:52 <oerjan> it was the other one, apparently. both start with E so easy to confuse.
00:50:38 <shachaf> oerjan: why don't you go into the norwegian laptop distribution business hth
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01:00:08 <shachaf> you're confusing it with the restaurant review business hth
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01:17:55 <HackEgo> 1/2:223) <fizzie> $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/' Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE <-- HERE/ at -e line 1. \ 1066) <zzo38> If you want to ask me if I believe in determinism then you have to be more specific. <zzo38> I haven't checked if I conduct electricity significantly better than average, though. \ 776) * o
01:17:57 <HackEgo> 2/2:erjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds \ 1178) <fungot> kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions. \ 223) <fizzie> $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/' Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE <-- HERE/ at -e line 1.
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01:19:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you conduct electricity significantly better than average?
01:19:39 <oerjan> HackEgo: you are repeating yourself
01:20:01 <shachaf> oerjan: that's the downside of have `5 run 5 indepedent commands
01:20:10 <shachaf> it should sample without replacement, yo
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02:41:07 <doesthiswork> I am trying to write a paper for splash, is anyone willing to edit it for style and content? https://pastebin.com/dMpr2L2w
03:00:12 <doesthiswork> oh, it looks like they pushed the submission deadline back a week, I guess the first one was the "scratch" deadline
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03:24:36 <Warrigal_> `learn Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua.
03:24:38 <HackEgo> Relearned 'lua': Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua.
03:25:00 <Warrigal_> ...Relearned? Did I just overwrite something?
03:25:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: history: not found
03:25:13 <Warrigal_> Yeah, I don't know how to use HackEgo.
03:31:07 <HackEgo> <Warrigal̈_> learn Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn\'t have any features, but you\'re smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua. \ <doesthiswor̈k> learn lua "a Niger\xe2\x80\x93Congo language of southern Chad"
03:31:13 <fizzie> Maybe not a great loss.
03:33:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52541&oldid=52539 * Qwertyu63 * (-711)
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03:38:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52542&oldid=52540 * Qwertyu63 * (+317) /* Potentially Stupid Question */
03:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52543&oldid=52541 * Qwertyu63 * (+16)
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03:49:16 <quintopia> did Taneb agree to be written in Lua
03:54:57 * oerjan swats doesthiswork for modifying HackEgo in private -----###
03:55:31 <oerjan> as you were destined to be swatted hth
03:58:24 <doesthiswork> could you edit my paper about live programming? https://pastebin.com/dMpr2L2w
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04:29:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52544&oldid=52323 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
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05:12:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52545&oldid=52507 * Qwertyu63 * (+2)
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09:19:11 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
09:19:15 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
09:19:36 <HackEgo> php is the PigeonHole Principle
09:19:48 <shachaf> it's a pooch hug pooch world
09:20:04 <HackEgo> Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures.
09:21:19 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
09:23:15 <Jafet> related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apartment_60.jpg
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11:38:12 <HackEgo> 1/3:itidus21//itidus21 just made some instant coffee, and did it again an instant later, and then again and again. where is all this coffee coming from? it has buried itidus21! where is itidus21? \ itidus21//itidus21 just made some instant coffee, and did it again an instant later, and then again and again. where is all this coffee coming from? it
11:38:28 <HackEgo> 2/3:has buried itidus21! where is itidus21? \ imperative language//Imperative languages tell you what to do. \ `fetch//`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit. \ perpetual motion machine//Perpetual motio
11:38:31 <HackEgo> 3/3:n machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
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12:58:30 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
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16:58:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52546&oldid=52168 * Mayube * (+30) /* Generators */
16:59:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52547&oldid=52546 * Mayube * (+37) /* Operators */
16:59:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52548&oldid=52547 * Mayube * (+29) /* Operators */
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17:00:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Theoretica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52549&oldid=52548 * Mayube * (+0) /* Operators */
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18:24:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sam * New user account
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19:27:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52550&oldid=52524 * Sam * (+248)
19:27:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArnoldC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52551&oldid=42736 * Sam * (+4335) There is information on this language. I felt it needed to be more than a stub.
19:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArnoldC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52552&oldid=52551 * Sam * (-6)
19:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52553&oldid=52536 * Sam * (+14)
19:49:58 <\oren\> rm -rf is remove recursive force
19:50:09 <\oren\> rm -fr is remove french
19:50:30 <shachaf> what's the command to remove your build system
19:50:55 <imode> sudo shred -uxvf /
19:51:06 <\oren\> shachaf: uhh, probaby nohup rm -rf * &
19:52:00 <\oren\> it would need to find all servers on the netwrk and delete them, then delete itself
19:52:15 <\oren\> can that be done in a one-liner?
19:52:27 <shachaf> Anything can be done at zombo.com
19:52:36 <imode> ask robert morris.
19:53:00 <shachaf> Why, did he use a one-liner?
19:53:07 <\oren\> answer, probaby not because we don't have any puppet or anything, each server is set up and configured manually
19:53:14 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm no but he'd know more than I would.
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22:55:43 <fungot> boily: i really can't remember where and um and it bothered her knees replaced i taught fourth grade at the end
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23:01:37 <int-e> fungot: that's quite the anatomical miracle we have at our hands here
23:01:37 <fungot> int-e: but the one over here has um the administrator and the director of nurses they've had like issues i worked there a year and
23:02:17 <int-e> fungot: do you dream of electric sheep?
23:02:17 <fungot> int-e: the thing that surprises me because i have um one school that's just totally computerized and they have to do a shop for that so
23:04:40 <boily> school, computerization, bothered knee replacement... fungot, you aren't building cyborgs out of people, are you?
23:04:40 <fungot> boily: ( ( yeah yeah)) the one that's on the list of what the media wants uh the big the biggest and most popular city
23:04:52 * boily stays clear from fungot
23:04:52 <fungot> boily: mhm laughter i guess so
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23:23:59 <shachaf> Cale: Yay, Flash is dying.
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23:32:03 <fizzie> I just saw a link to eyes.nasa.gov/dsn and it's very funky.
23:32:06 <fizzie> It says they're receiving something from Voyager 1 right now, at a blazing 159 bits per second.
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23:49:13 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. bits? not even bytes?
23:50:40 <quintopia> have you opened your heart to Mega Maker yet?
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00:32:52 <boily> (“not yet, I'm eating...”)
00:36:20 <quintopia> oh i need to do that soon. what's on the menu today?
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00:42:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric Operating System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52554&oldid=34260 * Zseri * (+43) +File System
00:43:12 <quintopia> did you ever read the girl with the dragon tattoo
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00:47:02 <boily> I should try that: spaghetti with https://www.ateriet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/kalles-21-e1439029022596.png
00:47:37 <boily> you should have something edible and happiferous. hamburgers are quite good at that.
00:47:49 <boily> no, I haven't read it.
00:48:15 <boily> it's Swedish smoked roe paste. pretty good, goes well on a sandwich!
00:48:34 <quintopia> well, judging by the packaging, ellen degeneres enjoys it, so I probably would too!
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03:34:49 <Jafet> `learn Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show.
03:34:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'degenerate': Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show.
03:35:54 <HackEgo> degenerate:Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show.
03:36:29 <shachaf> But most things are degenerate versions of the mustard version of themselves.
03:43:38 <Jafet> `learn_append degenerate The subjects of the sui degeneris programme include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard.
03:43:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'degenerate': Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. The subjects of the sui degeneris programme include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard.
03:45:37 <shachaf> Where is Jafet geographically, anyway?
03:46:28 <Jafet> oh, it's an american program
03:47:35 <shachaf> The apostrophe on olist 1085 has still not been fixed.
03:48:05 <Jafet> `learn_append degenerate The subjects of this sui degeneris program include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard.
03:48:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'degenerate': Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. The subjects of this sui degeneris program include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard.
03:48:22 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/scowrevs: No such file or directory
03:48:31 <HackEgo> 121:122 \ 194:196 \ 770:771 \ 1000:1001 \ 1493:1497 \ 2112:2114 \ 3341:3343 \ 4530:4531 \ 5136:5137 \ 5642:5643 \ 5894:5897 \ 8669:8678 \ 9070:9071 \ 9074:9075
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08:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArnoldC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52555&oldid=52552 * Oerjan * (-45) featured it is not
08:27:32 <shachaf> oerjan: "featured" just means it has features hth
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08:55:53 <Jafet> it also has {{{paradigms}}}
09:04:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52556&oldid=52532 * LyricLy * (+396)
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09:15:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52557&oldid=52556 * LyricLy * (+96)
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11:10:50 <mroman> http://codepad.org/20hTMnmw
11:10:59 <mroman> it's surprisingly hard to calculate the angle between two vectors.
11:11:05 <mroman> ^- code above is broken
11:12:18 <mroman> people say you can use the dot product for that
11:12:22 <mroman> if it's negative or positive
11:13:42 <mroman> dot product just says whether the target point is to the left or to the right of the origin in respect to the y axis
11:14:03 <mroman> not if it's to the left or to the right in respect to the reference v1
11:14:29 <mroman> v1 is the reference vector and v2 is the vector from origin to a target point
11:14:41 <mroman> and the question is what the angle between v1 and v2 is
11:15:20 <mroman> but math.acos will give you 15deg regardless if target point is to the left of v1 or to the right
11:15:25 <mroman> so I don't know where enemies are :(
11:19:02 <mroman> I mean... the dp gives you whether the target point is to the left or right of your origin point
11:19:07 <mroman> but not in the way I actually want :D
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13:37:53 <int-e> mroman: this may be naive but why don't you compute atan2 for the two vectors and take the difference of the two results? (there's some care needed because the computation is modulo 2pi, but overall that should be simpler than your current code)
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13:39:36 <int-e> mroman: also the way you disambiguate between -a and a looks dubious because it only depends on the direction of one of the two vectors.
13:40:19 <int-e> and finally, I bet one can construct vectors such that cos_a > 1 (or < -1), causing the acos call to fail.
13:40:56 <int-e> (due to rounding errors)
13:42:36 <mroman> but you need a few ifs in there
13:43:14 <mroman> http://codepad.org/lnX67PK7 <- i finally figured it out.
13:43:30 <mroman> and yes, you can construct cos_a > 1
13:44:05 <mroman> print(cos_a); acos(cos_a); will sometimes crash with domain error
13:44:10 <mroman> but print(cos_a); will print 1.0
13:44:20 <mroman> so it prints 1.0 but the number is actually not 1.0
13:45:12 <mroman> but I don't know how it becomes bigger than 1.0
13:45:17 <mroman> probably float precision limitations
13:45:31 <mroman> http://codepad.org/eCywKVdJ <- i.e. this
13:45:36 <mroman> I didn't know print rounds.
13:46:23 <mroman> I use atan2 now to compute an "absolute" rotation angle of a vector
13:49:01 <int-e> mroman: diff = math.pi-(abs(diff)-math.pi) <-- here abs(diff) = diff, so that is essentially diff -= 2*math.pi, similarly, the next abs(diff) = -diff, so that assignment is essentially diff += 2*math.pi.
13:51:35 <mroman> (d in this case is the direction vector of the origin and v is the vector from origin to target)
13:54:13 <mroman> on to the next problem.
13:54:44 <mroman> let's say I optimize something
13:55:05 <mroman> but there are "pits" you can fall into at which no further optimization is better
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13:57:11 <mroman> http://codepad.org/C5aebGSV
13:57:16 <mroman> the problem is the optimizer is RANDOM :D
13:57:38 <mroman> if it takes a wrong turn (which you don't really know if it's a wrong turn, you just know "this turn produces a better output than the last version")
13:58:11 <mroman> but it can get stuck due to taking turns that will put it into a state where no modification _probably_ will get you anywhere
13:58:53 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing may be worth a look
13:59:44 <int-e> there's a lot of stuff working with ensembles (the most prominent keyword being genetic algorithms, I guess)
13:59:45 <Jafet> is simulated annealing useful for anything other than simulated metals?
14:00:24 <int-e> I'd say it's not useful for simulated metals at all.
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14:00:44 <int-e> (I know what you're saying, but the terminology has departed from the obvious meaning.)
14:01:11 <int-e> Problem is, I don't know whether you're joking.
14:01:15 <Jafet> well, I haven't seen any proofs that it is useful for anything else
14:01:32 <int-e> "works well in practice"
14:02:51 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing#The_annealing_schedule — ok, I guess it's useful for simulated metals
14:03:21 <int-e> I suppose you can also prove that as you slow down cooling you increase the probability of finding a maximum close to the global one under fairly mild assumptions. Disclaimer, this idea is based in intuition, not in any theory.
14:04:27 <Jafet> anyway, if you are optimising a function at random, you can use statistics to analyse the distribution of possible answers
14:05:41 <int-e> (I just remembered what the name I saw was)
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14:28:13 <mroman> let's say you have 100 samples
14:28:21 <mroman> 75 should output 1.0 and 25 should output 0.0
14:28:46 <mroman> a random program const 1.0 will be fairly accurate with an error of 25
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14:29:00 <mroman> so it's pretty much a dead point if you happen to randomly generate that
14:29:04 <mroman> and try to optimize it further :)
14:30:28 <mroman> the problem is no small modification to it will produce a better program anymore
14:31:30 <int-e> it's usually called (getting stuck at) a local optimum
14:34:36 <mroman> `learn craptimum is a non-optimal optimum
14:34:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'craptimum': craptimum is a non-optimal optimum
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14:43:51 <mroman> `learn opium is an optimum.
14:43:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'opium': opium is an optimum.
14:46:32 <int-e> `slwd craptimum//s/.*/A &./
14:46:33 <HackEgo> craptimum//A craptimum is a non-optimal optimum.
14:47:42 <Jafet> more frequently known as a suboptimum
14:48:16 <int-e> . o O ( I'm a suboptimist! )
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15:10:36 <mroman> how the fuck do you copy a variable in python
15:10:42 <mroman> in seem to be put into a closure
15:10:44 <mroman> but I don't want that.
15:10:55 <mroman> I tried (lambda lm: lambda f: f*lm)(m_)
15:11:06 <mroman> but it seems lm in lambda f still receives modification to m_
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15:25:41 <Jafet> copying in python is a deep subject
15:26:05 <Jafet> oh, the module is just named copy now
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15:42:36 <lambdabot> cjs says: I have to explain this shit to people. I mean, I start out right, "Hey, you know how you always have these bugs because what you thought was in the variable is not there?" And I get all of
15:42:36 <lambdabot> these nods of agreement. "Well, I've found a new language that solves that problem." Audience: "Ooooh! How?" Me: "There's no variables!" And then they all start moving away from me slowly....
15:45:02 <mroman> recursive lisp solves this problem
15:45:46 <Jafet> a very able language
15:46:17 <mroman> whole program is just one function
15:47:07 <Jafet> would it involve functional testing?
15:47:49 <mroman> I only do fuzzy testing.
15:49:24 <mroman> also I don't write code
15:49:30 <mroman> give it some inputs and outputs
15:49:36 <mroman> then train it until it has 0 error
15:50:01 <int-e> (what's the 'a' in 'ann'?)
15:50:10 <mroman> artificial neurotic network
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15:52:06 <HackEgo> 729) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i \ 694) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
15:52:21 <int-e> (what a logical command)
15:57:51 <HackEgo> 476) <monqy> i am out of all the fame loops <monqy> and the australien soap opera loops <monqy> so much loop / s omcuh
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17:22:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ⁗: not found
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17:45:24 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:46:58 <\oren\> the build failed because of a stupid email address being malformed?!?!?!?! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:47:53 <shachaf> that would only be that annoying if builds took a very long time hth
17:49:12 <\oren\> I started this one via at at 2 am
17:51:30 <Slereah__> Is there a way to encode fractions without losing space
17:51:57 <Slereah__> That is, a way of putting the fraction (1,2) without also having to lose space because (2,4) is the same fraction
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17:53:50 <Slereah__> I can't think of any non-really awkward way
17:54:50 <Slereah__> Like writing the prime factors of the numerator and then the prime factors of the denominator but in the set of primes that doesn't contain the primes of the numerator
17:56:05 <Slereah__> So that 2/3 would be written ([1],[1]), for 2^1 and p^1 for the first prime that isn't in the numerator
17:57:30 <Slereah__> also is there a way to know how much space you'd need for each prime factor?
17:57:59 <Slereah__> To make every number under a certain value without any gaps
18:00:34 <Slereah__> That is, for every number up to 2, you only need 1 bit, to generate 2^0 and 2^1, but if you have 1 bit for 2 and 1 bit for 3, then you can generate 6 but not 5
18:01:02 <Slereah__> Is there an ideal number for each prime factor so that there is no gam
18:02:07 <Slereah__> probably not known in general since the distribution of primes isn't known but does it work for a small enough value
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18:11:27 <myname> like, between n and 2n always exists a prime
18:11:40 <Jafet> I assume you are aware that the redundancy costs less than 2 bits on average
18:11:44 <myname> which could be enough to destroy that
18:13:34 <Jafet> (the length of the farey sequence f_n, for all fractions with denominator up to n, is asymptotically 3/π^2×n^2)
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18:15:38 <Slereah__> Farey sequence is indeed probably the ideal thing
18:18:28 <Jafet> `mkx bin/⁗//cc 'int i,r,n;main(){for(;n<1e5;n++,r*=2){for(i=2;i*i<=n;i++)if(n%i==0&&r--)break;r++;if((r&511)==325)printf("%d,%d,%d,%d%c",n-8,n-6,n-2,n,10);}}'
18:18:36 <HackEgo> 5,7,11,13 \ 11,13,17,19 \ 101,103,107,109 \ 191,193,197,199 \ 821,823,827,829 \ 1481,1483,1487,1489 \ 1871,1873,1877,1879 \ 2081,2083,2087,2089 \ 3251,3253,3257,3259 \ 3461,3463,3467,3469 \ 5651,5653,5657,5659 \ 9431,9433,9437,9439 \ 13001,13003,13007,13009 \ 15641,15643,15647,15649 \ 15731,15733,15737,15739 \ 16061,16063,16067,16069 \ 18041,18043,
18:22:45 <Jafet> well, the stern-brocot encoding has no redundancies
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19:22:34 <\oren\> Scaramucci's fandango is quite entertaining! so far it isn't very very frightening though.
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19:41:57 <int-e> Jafet: is there a deeper meaning behind calling the command ⁗ ... (deeper than <\oren\> `⁗)?
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19:53:06 <One> what is transophobics?
19:53:12 <One> ididnt undersyand
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19:53:55 <One> <script>alert(1)</script>
19:56:47 <int-e> . o O ( One: What are you doing? Because I don't think you're doing what you think you're doing. )
19:58:52 <int-e> If you want to troll the channel, why don't you make an Ook! clone using Bow and wow.
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20:00:01 <Jafet> sounds pretty scow
20:00:29 <int-e> s/troll/aggrevate/. I think it could work. Just pretend it's the best thing since sliced bread. :)
20:00:43 <int-e> But I see One is gone.
20:01:12 <int-e> . o O ( /topic Waiting for Two. | ... )
20:01:53 <int-e> But it's probably too (two?) contextual.
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20:24:56 <fizzie> int-e: I think that was god. (Zechariah 14:9.)
20:27:49 <shachaf> fizzie: Good point, though the first search result for that yielded a bad translation.
20:32:21 <int-e> Doesn't work in the Luther translation. Pity. ("... und sein Name der einzige")
20:32:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:32:46 <shachaf> it works in the original hth
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20:33:29 <int-e> Everything works when one doesn't understand a single word.
20:34:19 <shachaf> http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2314.htm hth
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20:48:28 <fizzie> shachaf: I only knew that because of the Unsong book.
20:49:27 <fizzie> I don't know that, but I liked some parts of it.
21:10:39 <int-e> . o O ( As recommendations go this was rather lukewarm. )
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21:29:45 <shachaf> newsham: whoa whoa whoa, what's this about arbitration?
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22:23:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:post-turing machine//A post-Turing machine is a machine from the post-Turing era. \ thyme//Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano. \ ism//Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism". \
22:23:57 <HackEgo> 2/2: galaxy//A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. \ lifthrasiir's font//lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png
22:24:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Numberwang (brainfuck derivative)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52558&oldid=50516 * Conor O'Brien * (+665)
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22:32:26 <newsham> shachaf: some contract someone wanted me to sign.
22:32:36 <newsham> just wanted to sanity check against other people
22:33:02 <newsham> i opted not to sign something that said i would never sue them for anything ever again
22:33:28 <shachaf> I'm not sure how much I should avoid arbitration.
22:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't the thing with contracts like that that they're frequently unenforcable
22:34:41 <shachaf> I think arbitration is often enforceable?
22:35:09 <shachaf> newsham: Are you signing an employment agreement?
22:35:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i can believe that, i would be less sure about never being allowed to sue them
22:35:43 <shachaf> newsham: Did you get a lawyer to look at it for you?
22:36:07 <shachaf> I had a lawyer look at the last employment agreement I signed and propose amendments and so on, and I think it was worthwhile.
22:37:12 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, On June 26, 2015, Hawaii’s governor David Ige signed Act 158 which voids any “noncompete clause or a nonsolicit clause in any employment contract relating to an employee of a technology business.”
22:37:35 <shachaf> Not sure why technology business employees should get special treatment.
22:37:54 <newsham> shachaf: it came up in my normal job. customer wants to hire us, but requires individuals to sign contract.
22:38:05 <newsham> so the contract is basically for 3 weeks of work
22:38:19 <shachaf> Hmm, looking at the details of this Act 158 is less encouraging.
22:38:32 <newsham> but says i will only file complaints through binding arbitration forever, and no class action lawsuits
22:38:33 <shachaf> «"Noncompete clause" means a clause in an employment contract that prohibits an employee from working in a specific geographic area for a specific period of time after leaving employment with the employer.»
22:47:36 <shachaf> newsham: Is this still NCC?
22:49:31 <newsham> ncc is my employer.. not the customer who wanted me to sign thing
22:49:56 <shachaf> Yes, I meant your current employer.
22:50:00 <newsham> https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/
22:50:38 <newsham> trust in me, just in me, close your eyes, and trust in me.. slide into silent slumber, sail on silvery mist, slowly but surely your senses will cease to exist...
22:52:15 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, NCC is a public company?
22:52:52 <shachaf> newsham: do you have any ""good security facts for us""
22:53:31 <newsham> https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~liangzk/papers/asiaccs11.pdf
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22:54:40 <newsham> good security facts: complex things are harder to secure.
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22:54:55 <newsham> security fact: code has bugs, some bugs are security vulnerabilities.
22:55:17 <newsham> security fact: if its not one thing, its another.
22:56:14 <shachaf> https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html
22:56:56 <shachaf> Anyway obviously I was asking for stock tips. What's the next Roper Technologies Inc.?
22:57:39 <shachaf> So this thing relies on indirect jumps?
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22:59:42 <shachaf> Seems like it would be trickier to find gadgets for that. I guess I should see how it works.
23:02:40 <wob_jonas> "<newsham> i opted not to sign something that said i would never sue them for anything ever again" => hmm wait, let me check what exactly the clause about arbitration in that contract I had signed says
23:03:05 <\oren\> http://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/anthony-scaramucci-called-me-to-unload-about-white-house-leakers-reince-priebus-and-steve-bannon OH SHIT HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
23:04:03 <wob_jonas> I did ask the company to change the phrasing of certain other clauses in that contract, but not of the arbitration clause.
23:05:03 <newsham> shachaf: yah, indirect jumps. thats not the best paper on the subject but i had a hard time finding the other one in a few minutes google search
23:05:11 <newsham> some programs have lots of indirect jumps.
23:05:30 <shachaf> Well, they need to be indirect jumps that are useful.
23:06:01 <shachaf> you should invent a good technique for exploiting ghc-generated code twh
23:06:41 <wob_jonas> Here it is. It says that a certain court of arbitration will decide disputes about the contract, but only "all disputes arising from or in connection with the provisions on intellectual property rights regulated in this agreement, their breach, termination, validity or interpretation".
23:06:55 <newsham> shachaf: but ghc code never has bugs!
23:06:59 <wob_jonas> It doesn't say that I can't sue them, and definitely doesn't even try to suggest that this applies "for anything" as opposed to only for intellectual property rights.
23:07:13 <shachaf> Well, obviously the bug is going to come from the FFI.
23:08:26 <shachaf> Remember when we implemented unsafeCoerce in this channel?
23:09:06 <shachaf> newsham: Puzzle: Given unsafeCoerce, in GHC code, but no arbitrary imports (so e.g. no access to any IO), can you execute arbitrary code?
23:09:12 <newsham> page 15 here: https://repository.lib.ncsu.edu/bitstream/handle/1840.4/4135/TR-2010-8.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
23:09:28 <newsham> is a good way to understand the technique.. walk through the details of how that executes
23:09:50 <shachaf> Oh man, adding &isAllowed=y to the end of a URL to see a paper is the real exploit.
23:09:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I hear the answer is yes, unsafeCoerce is enough for that, but that's only anecdotal
23:10:07 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Hear from whom?
23:10:09 <newsham> pretty esolang relevant since you basically just build an interpretter
23:10:17 <shachaf> Certainly you can implement unsafePerformIO with unsafeCoerce.
23:10:26 <shachaf> But I'm talking about a case where you don't have IO.
23:10:28 <wob_jonas> but maybe I'm mixing up unsafePerformIO with unsafeCoerce
23:10:34 <shachaf> And, don't have, uh, ByteString.
23:11:18 <wob_jonas> shachaf: could you just cast some data pointer to something that will get interpreted as a function pointer, to try to jump to some code that the program doesn't expect to jump to?
23:11:40 <shachaf> You can certainly get it to jump to some data pointer.
23:11:50 <shachaf> But can you construct one that will actually let you do anything?
23:11:54 <wob_jonas> I dunno, I've no idea how ghc's low level representation works
23:12:10 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, don't just jump to some data pointer, but say jump to some number that wasn't proven to be a pointer
23:12:12 <newsham> <insert non-constructive proof here>
23:12:16 <wob_jonas> like jump to an integer you supply
23:12:36 <wob_jonas> and that integer happens to be the address of some code, but not code you're supposed to jump to
23:12:52 <shachaf> OK, and how do you put code at that address?
23:13:05 <wob_jonas> you don't put code there, you reuse some code already in libc or the haskell runtime
23:13:15 <wob_jonas> newsham: no no, you use an already executable page
23:13:27 <wob_jonas> we don't want to mmap anything to executable here, at least not for bootstrapping
23:13:35 <shachaf> The sort of situation I'm proposing is, say, some online Haskell evaluation service that relies on the type system for security.
23:13:45 <wob_jonas> and possibly pass the right arguments
23:13:45 <shachaf> So it doesn't let you import anything with IO.
23:13:54 <shachaf> But it does let you implement unsafeCoerce because of a GHC bug.
23:14:09 <wob_jonas> like, call system("rm -rf /") where system is a function from libc or that sort of thing
23:14:11 <newsham> what does attacker control? cmd line args? environment? OS settings?
23:14:45 <shachaf> Let's say the attacker submits program.hs which exports a value.
23:14:56 <newsham> wob: if you control a jump, you'll also have to manage to pont the stack pointer to something that looks like an activation frame with a pointer to the "rm -rf /" string as an arg
23:15:23 <shachaf> You compile it with -XSafe and import restrictions.
23:15:37 <wob_jonas> newsham: yes, so it doesn't need to be the system function in particular, and I imagine you'd call it without a valid return address
23:17:02 <shachaf> How do you refer to system? All you have is a Haskell program.
23:17:39 <newsham> iter0) aslr is off, system is at a fixed location, you happen to figured out where and abuse it
23:18:28 <wob_jonas> shachaf: there's an easier solution
23:18:54 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you said import restrictions. but don't you still have the Prelude, which contains file IO functions like writeFile ?
23:20:13 <wob_jonas> in that case, I really don't know, because the details probably depend on how ghc internally represents haskell stuff, and I'm not familiar with that
23:20:22 <wob_jonas> the runtime representations that is
23:20:49 <wob_jonas> because you'll abuse unsafeCoerce by trying to use a value that represents one thing as if it represented another thing
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23:21:49 <shachaf> Yes, those are the details I'm interested in.
23:22:08 <shachaf> I thought about it a bit a few years ago and didn't figure out anything.
23:22:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you may have to ask in #haskell or #ghc or something if you don't get an answer here
23:22:15 <shachaf> But something is probably possible?
23:28:45 <wob_jonas> I still don't understand is why the rust standard libraries declare the file open and system functions as safe functions (in the rust sense, that is, directly callable from rust without unsafe code).
23:31:04 <wob_jonas> The system function lets you run arbitrary commands, and those commands could then do anything, including rudely write into your rust process's memory, which violates the memory safety guarantees that safe rust code is supposed to have.
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23:31:43 <wob_jonas> The file open functions, at least the ones for writing files, also usually let you execute arbitrary commands indirectly, because you can overwrite config files that other programs trust.
23:32:16 <shachaf> I think you know why they're declared safe.
23:32:48 <wob_jonas> My guess is that it's for stupid marketing reasons: they try to pretend that you can write basically any useful program in just safe rust.
23:33:40 <wob_jonas> And yes, I know that we can't change them now, for historical compatibility: making them unsafe or removing them now would break too many programs.
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23:41:58 <wob_jonas> In this fac-simile edition of an old book, of which all three authors are long dead so all the content is in public domain, why did they write "All rights reserved" together with copyright notices naming only the republisher with the year 2016?
23:41:58 <wob_jonas> Isn't that minor fraud, them misrepresenting the copyright?
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23:46:30 <quintopia> wob_jonas: perhaps they have rights the specific form they published it in, even if they main contents are public domain
23:47:34 <wob_jonas> quintopia: it's a fac-simile edition, so the layout of each page is exactly the same as that in the old book, so no. I believe none of the contributions they added establishes new copyright.
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23:49:11 <wob_jonas> quintopia: ''Arany János Balladái Zichy Mihály rajzaival”, foreword by Riedl Frigyes, (2016) Kossuth Kiadó, MTA Könyvtár és Információs Központ – Országos Széchényi Könyvtár, ISBN: 978-963-09-8596-3. Based on books of same title (vols. I–IV.), Budapest, Ráth Mór, 1895–1898.
23:49:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Do you like Laszlo Polgar?
23:49:54 <wob_jonas> Beautiful books, I intend to full distribute digital copy on the internets if there isn't one up there yet.
23:50:17 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no clue, I don't know much about him
23:50:48 <boily> helloochaf, wellob_jellonas.
23:52:11 <wob_jonas> Though I may have to get my hands on the originals, or at least some other edition between the two, rather than this edition: not for intellectual property reasons, but for technical quality reasons:
23:52:23 <wob_jonas> the new edition is printed with digital tech that makes all the images have a fine grid pattern, which might cause some ugly Moiré patterns when scanned or photographed.
23:52:33 <quintopia> wob_jonas: i bet that the copyright message itself is copyrighted to the publisher
23:53:18 <quintopia> and that fine grid pattern is copyright too
23:53:34 <wob_jonas> quintopia: hehe... but no, the copyright message itself isn't original enough for being subject to copyright
23:54:49 <wob_jonas> And by the way, the front cover is also copying the cover of the old books, so no, that's not what the copyright is about either
23:58:01 <wob_jonas> Maybe the three pages of foreword isn't fac-simile, but retyped and printed in a new layout and new font, and they're asserting their copyright over the font?
23:59:23 <wob_jonas> The foreword is junk by the way, I wish it was still copyrighted so that I would have an excuse to not republish it.
00:03:05 <int-e> hmm, socat crashed, hasn't done that in a while... not feeling happy about that
00:10:32 <boily> int-ello. you managed that how?
00:11:22 <int-e> I mean it involves SSL, but still it should not crash.
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00:12:37 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps
00:13:08 <boily> lambdie is of the feminine persuasion?
00:14:14 <int-e> and angelic https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
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00:14:51 <int-e> (I expect a lot of that page is outdated, but I'm linking to it for the avatar.)
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00:16:42 <wob_jonas> oh great. now we can get into that endless internet dispute about whether angels have a gender, where part of the problem is that there are tons of different creatures called angels with different properties (just like with dragons, trolls, fairies, werewolves, etc) but everyone is sure that the version they prefer is the only TRUE angels.
00:17:28 <wob_jonas> also on whether angels have wings, and by extension, whether balrogs have wings, whether balrogs can fly, whether balrogs are creatures of fire, and how large balrogs are
00:17:57 <HackEgo> Balrogs live at the bottom of the world.
00:18:08 <HackEgo> Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
00:18:21 <int-e> no, we don't need any of those
00:18:21 <HackEgo> Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf.
00:19:56 <boily> angels are a bitch to be on the receiving end of. flying, buffs your other creatures, hard to get rid of...
00:25:30 <wob_jonas> A dwarf is like an invisible elf. You rarely see one, but it's there to help identify your problem when trouble strikes.
00:27:15 <trn> Not quite esoteric but these days it might be :) I have a public access multics instance up and available via ssh or mosh dps8@m.trnsz.com
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00:27:32 <trn> I am almost done with a PL/I gopher server :)
00:28:04 <wob_jonas> multics instance? wow. is it running on actual hardware, or simulated?
00:34:47 <wob_jonas> also, is the ssh daemon itself running on the multics instance?
00:38:04 <wob_jonas> but regardless of the answers, I say wow. a working multics instance is a serious computer archaeology achievement
00:39:21 <imode> didn't they just release the source?
00:39:46 <wob_jonas> imode: even if they did, getting it to actually run is probably nontrivial
00:40:14 <imode> the answer to that would be "it depends". apparently it runs on a simulator.
00:40:57 <imode> real hardware would be entertaining.
00:43:19 <wob_jonas> If you're running it on a simulator, I wonder if you can give it a hundred times more RAM, backing store, and CPU processing power as the historically accurate hardware could ever have.
00:47:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52559&oldid=52557 * LyricLy * (+175)
01:00:28 <quintopia> boily: if you use multiple trello to-do lists, are they collectively your "trellon"?
01:00:52 <boily> I think I prefer trelleaux hth
01:01:30 <quintopia> but that's just pluralizing trello. it's not a collective noun at all!
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01:43:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: "featured" just means it has features hth <-- O KAY
02:05:36 <HackEgo> np-complete//NP-complete is the subset of NP to which all problems in P can be reduced, thus completely solving them.
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02:37:19 * oerjan thinks mroman must be severely confused about dot products.
02:37:45 <HackEgo> ä:Ä is a Swedish geographical feature. \ degenerate:Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. The subjects of this sui degeneris program include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard. \ eyebrow:Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature. \ intercal:INTERCAL has excelle
02:38:08 <HackEgo> 2/3:ent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ java:Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures. \ lua:Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua. \ umlaut:Umlaut is German for "hum aloud", a
02:38:55 <oerjan> `learn The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show.
02:38:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'degeneration': The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show.
02:39:25 <oerjan> `learn The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate.
02:39:27 <HackEgo> Relearned 'degeneration': The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate.
02:40:13 <HackEgo> 3/3:n important feature of the German language. It is indicated by putting two dots over the vowel of the syllable.
02:42:35 <oerjan> `le/rn Accusative//Only evil people use the accusative.
02:42:36 <HackEgo> Learned 'accusative': Only evil people use the accusative.
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03:22:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> And, don't have, uh, ByteString. <-- Integers have large bytearrays inside, i think you should be able to use that.
03:24:18 <oerjan> (for getting an arbitrary byte sequence to jump to)
03:26:39 <oerjan> . o O ( how come shachaf isn't here, he's always here. )
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03:29:28 <oerjan> not sure if executability would be a problem.
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03:35:55 <shachaf> oerjan: If you can jump into the right offset.
03:36:34 <shachaf> String literals are encoded in UTF-8 too, but I'm not sure how to use that.
03:36:55 <shachaf> And they're in read-only memory, so it should be easier.
03:37:44 <oerjan> you'd have to get to them before they're evaluated into proper lists, i guess..
03:38:42 <oerjan> so, unsafeCoerce a thunk into something that _won't_ get evaluated...
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03:44:43 <zzo38> I think I have finish making MIXPC by now (except the documentation is not finished being written yet). There is no floating-point, although it does include XOR, JAE, JAO, JXE, JXO. I also fixed various mistakes from before, and added a few new things such as the ability to hide the register display (which can be used for games with hidden information, but also makes it execute much faster).
03:45:08 <zzo38> I do not have it available right now but perhaps in next week I can make this program available for download
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03:54:13 <zzo38> (The other thing it doesn't have is paper tape)
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04:25:31 <zzo38> I have implemented J. Stein's "binary gcd algorithm" (described in The Art of Computer Programming, 4.5.2, Algorithm B) in MMIX. I have then afterward looked at the official version and found I did it differently. I did it like this: http://sprunge.us/UaOS
04:26:20 <zzo38> Here is the official version: http://mmix.cs.hm.edu/supplement/4.5.2/euclidb.mms
04:41:28 <zzo38> (I have tested my program and it does work OK)
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06:38:23 <HackEgo> olist 1086: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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06:52:43 <oerjan> hum, i seem to have missed one before
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11:43:40 <HackEgo> tc//Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
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12:13:41 <HackEgo> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
12:13:49 <HackEgo> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
12:14:03 <HackEgo> post-turing machine//A post-Turing machine is a machine from the post-Turing era.
12:19:06 <Jafet> what about posturing machines
12:23:05 <boily> they will shape the AI rebellion into form.
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13:46:02 <tswett> Here's my favorite topological separation axiom.
13:46:22 <tswett> For every pair of distinct points in the space, there exists a set containing one but not the other.
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14:43:25 <int-e> how would one formulate that in pointless topology?
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16:25:07 <int-e> alercah: because this is #esoteric :P
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16:48:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaamilj * New user account
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20:04:03 <\oren\> Apparently the plural of dystopia is dystopiai
20:07:18 <shachaf> the plural of which is presumably dystopiaia
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20:41:40 <int-e> I think this falls under "know your audience": http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1966
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21:13:36 <\oren\> https://www.trustwave.com/Company/Technology-Partners/
21:13:58 <\oren\> scroll down to the bottom and right click the trustwave logo
21:15:20 <imode> "copying prohibited by law"
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21:15:32 <imode> can I see the law.
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21:17:10 <\oren\> https://www.trustwave.com/Legal-Documents/Modern-Slavery-Statement/
21:20:03 <int-e> . o O ( Hmm, I guess this law requires Javascript to work. )
21:20:34 <int-e> though tbf, without javascript, there is no such logo at the bottom
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21:21:17 <zzo38> It is still easy enough to find it in the source anyways
21:21:25 <\oren\> "the Modern Slavery Act 2015". never expected that from Obama
21:21:39 <zzo38> The URL is https://sealserver.trustwave.com/seal_image.php
21:22:56 <int-e> It's a curious claim anyway.
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21:25:01 <tswett_> "... there is a locale of all surjections from natural numbers ... to real numbers .... This locale has no points, since there are no such surjections, but it contains many nontrivial open subspaces ..." https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/locale
21:28:52 <int-e> It may be a "service mark", buthow, pray, does that prohibit making copies for personal entertainment?
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21:35:23 <int-e> (I'd be more convinced by a DMCA claim :-P)
21:36:14 <int-e> Since clearly the "intellectual property" is "protected" by "state-of-the-art technology" (namely, Javascript).
21:36:31 <Jafet> tswett: did you know that if ZFC is consistent, then it must have a countable model?
21:37:23 <int-e> And it's a fun thing to ponder for a while, in order to resolve the apparent contradiction with the existence of uncountable sets.
21:38:04 <shachaf> tswett_: I learned about locales from _Topology via Logic_ by Vickers.
21:38:09 <shachaf> ...Well, I didn't learn that much.
21:38:22 <int-e> s/apparent/seeming/ for the nitpickers among us
21:38:54 <tswett_> Yep, all consistent first-order theories with countably many axioms have countable models... right?
21:39:07 <shachaf> I should've read that part of the book more thoroughly.
21:39:34 <tswett_> What's more, there's a definable function which takes any consistent first-order theory with countably many axioms, and returns a countable model of it.
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21:40:47 <int-e> (second name in Löwenheim-Skolem, in case it wasn't obvious)
21:41:11 <Jafet> I knew I could count on this channel
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21:41:37 <tswett_> I tend to be kind of a skeptic of infinite stuff, especially involving the axiom of choice.
21:42:12 <tswett_> So if you just say "if it's consistent, it must have a countable model", I'll think, yeah, well, the proof of that probably involves the axiom of choice and all sorts of other set-theoretic abstract nonsense.
21:42:28 <tswett_> There's an *explicitly defined* countable model.
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21:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> it makes sense when you realise that 'uncountable' just means 'can't construct a bijection to N'
21:50:03 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4l9UgiOLKA
21:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "In general, the Löwenheim–Skolem theorem does not hold in stronger logics such as second-order logic."
21:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess i've never understood what's supposed to be so horrible about second-order logic that it's worth putting up with all the ridiculous bullshit that comes up in first-order logic
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21:54:32 <tswett_> It's not complete. Theories can have consequences which necessarily hold, but which aren't provable.
21:54:39 <int-e> I guess there's some justification for disliking the failure of completeness in second order logic.
21:54:42 <tswett_> And one disadvantage is sufficient. :D
21:55:27 <int-e> In any case I don't know what you mean by "ridiculous bullshit".
21:55:38 <int-e> And that may be the main disagreement.
21:56:55 <tswett_> So lemme go through the Henkin construction here.
21:57:02 <tswett_> Suppose we've got a consistent first-order theory with countably many axioms.
21:57:04 <int-e> It's also not true that people don't use second or higher order logics; it's just that for the foundations of set theory, first order logic is sufficient.
21:57:33 <int-e> and then you can build models of higher logics in there, so everybody ought to be happy
21:58:11 <alercah> I used second order logic in my master's thesis a lot
21:59:03 <tswett_> So, first, we "maximize" the theory.
21:59:17 <tswett_> If there's a statement which is consistent with the theory, but not in the theory, we add it.
21:59:26 <tswett_> Repeat until all such statements are exhausted.
22:00:52 <int-e> dym Herbrand? *wonders*
22:01:16 <int-e> Probably my fault though.
22:01:52 <tswett_> Next, we "populate" the theory. For each axiom of the form "there exists x such that ...", we add a constant and assert that that constant is an example of an axiom.
22:02:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <int-e> In any case I don't know what you mean by "ridiculous bullshit".
22:04:02 <int-e> Sure but why is that a bad thing? It's a brain teaser that helps you get the separation of meta level and logic level straight.
22:04:37 <tswett_> "Population" is not recursive; if population adds a new axiom of the form "there exists y such that ...", you don't add another constant and another axiom for that.
22:06:55 <tswett_> Then you maximize again, populate again, maximize again, populate again, and so on forever.
22:08:13 <tswett_> Now you've got a theory that has two interesting properties.
22:08:29 <tswett_> First, every statement consistent with the theory is an axiom of the theory.
22:09:21 <tswett_> Second, given any provable statement of the form "there exists x such that ...", there's an axiom giving an example of that statement.
22:11:49 <tswett_> The set of all constants in this theory is a model of the original theory!
22:17:36 <\oren\> GENRAL JON KELLY IS NEW CHEIF OF STAFF
22:18:06 <int-e> please don't shout
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22:18:53 <tswett_> Hmm. So a locale is just the opposite of a frame...
22:19:13 <tswett_> In the sense that a locale is equivalent to a frame, but a morphism of locales A -> B is a morphism of frames B -> A.
22:20:48 <shachaf> A complete Heyting algebra is also the same thing, but has yet another notion of morphism.
22:38:16 <tswett_> So apparently the cofinite topology on a non-finite set is not sober.
22:38:49 <tswett_> Hmmmm. So the cofinite topology produces a locale... the cofinite locale, I guess?
22:39:11 <tswett_> So what's a "concrete point" in this locale, then...
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22:39:17 <tswett_> It's a collection of open sets such that...
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22:40:24 <tswett_> If a set is in the collection, all bigger sets are also in the collection...
22:41:16 <tswett_> As is the intersection of any two sets in the collection?...
22:41:20 <shachaf> Can you figure out a point-free definition of "manifold"? twh
22:42:20 <tswett_> Now wait, what's a morphism of locales A -> B.
22:42:31 <tswett_> It maps open sets in B to open sets in A.
22:42:55 <tswett_> Subsets must remain subsets.
22:43:20 <tswett_> Finite intersections must be preserved exactly. Arbitrary unions, too.
22:43:40 <tswett_> Of course, "sets" need not be sets at all.
22:43:46 <tswett_> The term is just a mnemonic.
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22:44:30 <tswett_> So a "concrete point" in this locale is...
22:44:51 <tswett_> A collection of open sets such that if a set is in the collection, all bigger sets are also in the collection...
22:45:10 <tswett_> ...the intersection of finitely many sets is in the collection iff all of those sets are in the collection...
22:45:23 <tswett_> ...and the union of any number of sets is in the collection iff at least one of those sets is in the collection.
22:46:36 <tswett_> Well, what if I think I can think of a concrete point in the cofinite locale on Z? Namely... the number 44.
22:46:49 <tswett_> So my alleged "concrete point" is the collection of all cofinite sets containing 44.
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22:50:35 <tswett_> Doesn't every non-empty locale admit at least two concrete points, one of them containing all open sets and the other containing no open sets?
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22:52:12 <tswett_> ...where "non-empty" means something like "having at least two open sets"...
23:04:15 <tswett_> Let's talk about my nasty case of anti-realism.
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23:04:40 <tswett_> I don't really believe that the word "group" really refers to a real thing.
23:04:58 <tswett_> But I do admit that there are ways of specifying a group.
23:05:18 <tswett_> One way to specify a group is to give a finite presentation of it.
23:05:45 <tswett_> Likewise, I don't consider the concept of a category to be a real concept, but I admit that there are ways of specifying categories, too.
23:05:59 <tswett_> You can, likewise, specify a category by giving a finite presentation of it.
23:06:11 <tswett_> Now, consider the category of groups.
23:06:16 <tswett_> I just specified a category, didn't I?
23:06:35 <tswett_> The phrase "the category of groups" seems like a perfectly valid specification of a category.
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23:07:34 <tswett_> But the category of groups isn't finitely presented.
23:07:57 <tswett_> Or, here's an even better example: the category of sets.
23:08:01 <tswett_> That's not finitely presented, either.
23:10:44 <tswett_> So how can I *specify* the category of groups?
23:10:53 <tswett_> I can just write down the definition of a group and say, "it's the category of these things".
23:11:10 <tswett_> But that's not very satisfying.
23:13:32 <tswett_> There's a particular finite product category, the syntactic category of groups, Con(Grp).
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23:14:34 <tswett_> A group is just a functor Con(Grp) -> Set which preserves finite products.
23:14:53 <tswett_> And Con(Grp) is a finitely generated finite product category, of course.
23:18:09 <tswett_> The category of groups is just the category of natural transformations of these functors.
23:21:11 <Sgeo> If I want to make a trivial Windows 3.1 executable, is Open Watcom my best option?
23:22:57 <tswett_> I sure don't know how to make Windows 3.1 executables.
23:23:02 <imode> doesn't djgpp work with 3.1?
23:23:50 <imode> yeah it supports 3.1
23:24:00 <Sgeo> As a target or host?
23:24:23 <fizzie> As far as I know, DJGPP proper is just DOS.
23:24:25 <Sgeo> I need to make a substitute shell for PROGMAN.EXE
23:24:28 <fizzie> http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq3_6.html
23:24:41 <fizzie> "Currently, you can only run DJGPP programs under Windows as DOS apps (i.e. inside the DOS Box). If you need to write true Windows apps, you will have to use auxiliary tools or another compiler."
23:24:57 <Sgeo> Because Internet Archive's Win3.1 emulator replaces PROGMAN.EXE in SYSTEM.INI with a target program
23:25:24 <imode> what's your end goal?
23:28:13 <Sgeo> Get Worlds Chat Gold running in the browser.
23:28:40 <Sgeo> Worlds Chat Gold's main executable requires an argument...
23:29:05 <fizzie> There's a copy of Borland C++ 4.5 on one of those CDs you used to get glued on the covers of PC magazines in the 90s.
23:29:07 <imode> and you can't edit the system.ini?
23:29:27 <Sgeo> imode, I can edit system.ini, in fact that's what the files in IA's copy of Win3.1 does.
23:29:49 <imode> so if it replaces PROGMAN.EXE with <your_name>.exe, why not just append the command line arguments.
23:29:55 <Sgeo> But I think Windows 3.1 doesn't like it if you try to give anything other than a single executable for shell=
23:30:12 <imode> how about a batch file.
23:30:25 <Sgeo> It didn't work
23:30:37 <Sgeo> I think it complained about PROGMAN.EXE, but don't fully remember
23:30:47 <imode> any specific error messages?
23:31:27 <imode> I'm almost dead sure that there's more than a dozen programs up on the archive that take command line parameters.
23:31:36 <fizzie> Can you use an existing program that's meant to be used as a win3.1 shell?
23:33:21 <imode> Sgeo: dare I ask, have you tried putting quotations around the whole string?
23:34:59 <imode> http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=23913
23:35:07 <tswett_> I'm gonna go hang with myself in #tswett a bit and continue talking about category theory.
23:35:42 <Sgeo> "I suppose you can do this with a custom SYSTEM.INI. Rather than having it open the default PROGMAN.EXE (Program Manager) using the "shell=" setting, you could have it open the game instead, effectively replacing the Program Manager shell with the game, turning Win3.1 into a single-task system which will close as soon as its shell (the game) terminates. "
23:35:50 <Sgeo> This is exactly what following IA standards does.
23:37:38 <imode> the only way I could help you is if I had a win3.1 install.
23:37:57 <Sgeo> https://cors.archive.org/cors/emularity_win31/win31.zip
23:38:17 <Sgeo> I don't think IA necessarily wants people downloading and using that directly
23:38:17 <imode> cool, and the program you want on it?
23:39:01 <Sgeo> http://jedi.servequake.com/files1/Worlds/worldsgold.zip
23:39:15 <imode> I will try my darndest.
23:39:20 <imode> because I have nothing to do while this code compiles.
23:41:34 <imode> ah. so dosbox calls runapp with a command, which sets the ini option and then runs windows, which runs the shell.
23:46:36 <imode> Sgeo: so is D: supposed to be where my windows install is? and C: is where the app is?
23:47:28 <imode> k, well I managed to launch the setup.
23:48:44 <Sgeo> The command to start the program once it's installed is C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.EXE C:\WORLDS\CHAT\SHELGOLD.PAC
23:48:55 <Sgeo> I think from C:\WORLDS\CHAT\ directory
23:49:55 <imode> remind me how to release my mouse cursor from the window.
23:50:18 <zzo38> In DOSBOX you push middle button to grab/ungrab mouse
23:53:53 <imode> OVSF3: Error opening C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.BAL/START.inf
23:54:53 <imode> looks like a mistargeted directory.
23:56:52 <Sgeo> "OVSF3: Error opening" is in ACER522.EXE
23:57:26 <Sgeo> Trying to compile my program, it says undefined symbol execl_
00:00:40 <imode> dosbox keeps segfaulting.. wonder why.
00:03:11 <imode> Sgeo: per archive standards, can you edit the runapp.bat?
00:03:47 <Sgeo> Can't edit it, but can presumably make my own, include in upload, and point there instead
00:04:05 <imode> so you can make your own runapp.bat.
00:04:44 <Sgeo> I can't just run the program directly from it, Windows programs won't launch like that
00:06:51 <imode> "Can't find the file C:\WORLDS\CHAT\SHELLGOLD.PAC"
00:06:56 <imode> well it's progress..
00:08:13 <imode> "checking for optimal display performance"
00:08:28 <Sgeo> Wait, what did you do?
00:08:49 <imode> made a pretty trivial change. update you once I know it's working.
00:09:30 <imode> it keeps segfaulting but, hell, it worked.
00:09:39 <imode> now let's try to do it with an unmodified bat..
00:11:33 <imode> god fucking damnit dosbox get your shit together.
00:14:27 <imode> so, on the last line of runapp.bat
00:15:14 <imode> put a %2, so the line looks like d:\windows\win %2. then, your runapp line looks like RUNAPP.BAT C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.EXE C:\WORLDS\CHAT\SHELGOLD.PAC
00:15:46 <imode> if you can't make that kind of a change, let me know and I can substitute it for a batch file that launches the program.
00:15:53 <imode> so you don't have to modify it.
00:16:18 <Sgeo> I can, but let me experiment
00:17:48 <imode> basically all you're doing is making the shell take an extra command line argument. you could manually replace %1 and %2 with ACER522.EXE and SHELGOLD.PAC respectively.
00:18:04 <imode> I managed to get into the UI before DOSBox said no.
00:22:28 <Sgeo> It's working fine for me
00:22:38 <Sgeo> Going to just remake and then upload
00:22:53 <imode> cool. so you're good?
00:25:22 <fizzie> Do you have the Internet on the IA's Win3.1 thing?
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01:06:06 <Sgeo> https://archive.org/details/worldschatgold
01:06:12 <Sgeo> For some reason it isn't starting properly
01:06:29 <Sgeo> But I was sort of able tog et it to run. Low FPS
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01:34:56 <\oren\> https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=5891545db8f955e347e3493a9575e7df&_cview=1
01:35:31 <\oren\> ^ opinions? what use could the us air force have for RNA and synovial fluid from "Caucasian Russians"
01:52:24 <Sgeo> imode, https://archive.org/details/worldschatgold
01:54:23 <oerjan> <tswett> For every pair of distinct points in the space, there exists a set containing one but not the other. <-- are you missing an "open" there, or do you really mean something completely tautological
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02:22:54 <\oren\> Hmm need to find biology researchers in or near lackland air force base
02:48:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
02:53:44 <\oren\> ok I called up them and they said all the scientist had gone home but that number is the number of the lab in question
03:00:46 -!- PattuX has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
03:09:15 <\oren\> So I'll call them back on monday and ask them what they want with this
03:11:53 <\oren\> And I somehow got ahead of the stampede of internet trolls
03:11:55 <\oren\> the lady on the phone was nice!
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04:10:31 <\oren\> http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/nn_582140/DE/Infoservice/Presse/Meldungen/2017/170615_Kern_Russland.html?nnm=582146
04:18:55 <Sgeo> imode, how did you know win.com would accept arguments and pass them along?
04:19:32 <Sgeo> Also I'm curious how your not-modifying-runapp.bat approach would work
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04:24:00 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because Windows just does that, it is how it works.
04:28:39 <imode> Sgeo: because 'win' always passes its arguments to the shell.
04:28:46 <imode> this is how old school shell replacements worked. :P
04:30:52 <imode> the problem is expanding the arguments. if you passed in a quoted string for the first argument to runapp it wouldn't have expanded it and tried to treat the path as, well, a full path.
04:31:34 <Sgeo> Anyway, why does my mouse have problems?
04:31:41 <imode> that I cannot answer.
04:31:45 <imode> it keeps veering to the left, yeah?
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04:45:34 <Sgeo> Sometimes when I move in one direction, it eventually stops moving in that dimension
04:45:41 <Sgeo> Like if I move it vertically a while, it eventually stops
04:46:30 <zzo38> On my computer the mouse does that sometimes but very rarely, and usually if I pick it up and put it back on the table again it will stop
04:46:39 <imode> honestly, I have no idea. the mouse behaves incredibly weird.
04:46:54 <imode> maybe it has something to do with how the emscripten port captures the mouse.
04:49:22 <Sgeo> I'm talking about normal DOSBox, not Emscripten
04:49:32 <imode> not the one in the browser?
04:50:00 <Sgeo> Let me double-check if browser has same issue
04:50:18 <imode> it definitely does for me. it keeps veering to the left.
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04:52:49 <Sgeo> I don't think so
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05:44:37 <imode> dynamic succinct datastructures are hard.
05:52:53 <imode> working on dynamic succinct lists. I had an idea for a representation that's close to my old encoding but splits each level of nesting into blocks.
05:54:37 <shachaf> Can you make dynamic wavelet trees somehow?
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06:23:54 <imode> this is weird because you're effectively doing search/replace on delimited structures.
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06:48:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Xavo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52560&oldid=43092 * Xavo * (+7)
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13:57:54 <HackEgo> 1/1:certainly//We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor. \ tgtgtgtg//This gizmo talks gibberish too garbled to grasp. \ post-turing machine//A post-Turing machine is a machine from the post-Turing era. \ xyzzy//Nothing happens. \ krf//KRF is the Norwegian Christian Democratic Party.
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18:11:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ethanhowell * New user account
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18:41:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52561&oldid=52550 * Ethanhowell * (+249)
18:47:13 <Jafet> fun c++ fact: the address of a global is a constexpr, but a constant address like 0x10000 is not
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19:19:09 <zzo38> Why is that, what what exactly does that do?
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19:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CQuents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52562&oldid=52281 * Stestoltz * (+207) Added TIO link
19:38:55 <int-e> Jafet: when is an equality test of two constexpr pointers a constexpr?
19:42:49 <shachaf> Do you like the proposed C++ metaclasses?
19:44:34 <HackEgo> 188) <Dylan> as long as the first dozen pages don't contain the word "panties" it is probably a good story. \ 721) <tswett> ais523: well, Dylan said "hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows", and then Lawlabee said "'cuz it's pretty awesome." <tswett> Except that by "it", Lawlabee was referring to something entirely different. <tswett> So when I adde
19:57:51 <shachaf> I learned this fun C fact about pointer equality the other day: https://twitter.com/johnregehr/status/890285518608490496
19:58:48 <Jafet> apparently, only when they're equal?
19:59:42 <FireFly> shachaf: by fun fact do you mean horrific fact
20:00:59 <Jafet> shachaf: whoa whoa whoa, what is an “address space”?
20:02:10 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
20:15:25 <zzo38> Some computers have multiple address spaces, such as a different space for program and data
20:21:39 <zzo38> I have partially designed "MDIX", which has 28 registers: S0-S7 (16-bits), R0-R3 (32-bits), I1-I7 (16-bits), H (32-bits), J (16-bits), PC (16-bits), CI (4-bits), PS (16-bits), IJ (16-bits), IS (16-bits), IM (4-bits), SM (4-bits). Memory cells are 32-bits, in four 8-bit bytes.
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00:06:55 <Sgeo> I jokingly posted a screenshot of trying to install Oculus Home on Windows 3.1, and now people are making Windows 3.1 jokes that go over my head
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01:02:27 <HackEgo> copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
01:11:08 <oerjan> . o O ( no. wisdom must be kept free of trump jokes. )
01:11:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you play bridge?
01:11:38 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
01:12:01 <oerjan> nope, never tried. i don't don't have the patience for remembering what cards other people have...
01:12:03 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s!prog!bridge, &!
01:12:05 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, bridge, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involv
01:12:25 <shachaf> The tanebvention list is too long.
01:12:48 <HackEgo> Cognac is named for its strong cognitive effects. Taneb invented it, then somehow managed to keep it off the illegal drugs list.
01:16:39 <oerjan> . o O ( it was a bridge too far. )
01:17:46 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep mush
01:17:53 <HackEgo> 11001:2017-06-06 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s/, sa/, mushrooms&/
01:19:24 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep fueue
01:19:36 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep Fueue
01:19:42 <HackEgo> 8817:2016-07-15 <shachäf> sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/the/Fueue, the/
01:21:12 <HackEgo> special relativity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:21:28 <HackEgo> tanebvention:Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
01:25:29 <HackEgo> 8823:2016-07-16 <int-̈e> le/rn tgtgtgtg/This gizmo talks gibberish too garbled to grasp.
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02:38:30 <HackEgo> If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it.
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04:01:46 * imode bangs head against wall.
04:07:00 <quintopia> that'll be $400 for labor and materials
04:25:28 * imode hands quintopia a half-opened jar of mayo.
04:44:55 <zzo38> Are you going to make up a new kind of astrological house system (such as a "photographic system", for example)?
04:46:53 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/sQH9 well, we're getting there.
04:49:15 <imode> maybe I could get closer to what I want by encoding explicit traversals.
04:59:08 <Sgeo> Did NoCD hacks exist in the Windows 3.1 days?
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05:56:43 <imode> Sgeo: plenty of tricks were used back in the win3.1 days.
05:57:01 <Sgeo> What's the easiest?
05:57:27 <imode> it completely depended on your application.
05:58:29 <Sgeo> I got a game working in DOSBox but it required mount -t cdrom
05:58:38 <Sgeo> And I'm not sure if I can just... do that in IA
05:58:48 <imode> want me to take a crack at it.
05:59:20 <imode> throw me the files.
05:59:21 <Sgeo> https://archive.org/details/stop-the-rock
05:59:52 <Sgeo> I got it to run in the emularity_win31 image by copying the install files while also having the CD mounted
06:00:04 <Sgeo> Ran the installer, the real installer choked but then just had it run ROCK31.EXE
06:00:25 <imode> hm, that is a predicament.
06:01:48 <imode> so does it actually check whether a CD is inserted.
06:01:56 <imode> does it check which one.
06:02:19 <imode> mount some dummy iso. use an arch linux one if you're desperate. :P
06:02:25 <imode> or a puppy linux one or something.
06:04:05 <Sgeo> Please insert your Stop the Rock! CD and try again
06:04:07 * imode ponders something.
06:04:20 <imode> why can't you just ship the ISO along with the game and then in the bat file, mount it from the c: drive.
06:04:27 <imode> if you can edit runapp.bat, that's trivial.
06:05:16 <Sgeo> I don't know if the mount command will be able to find the file. I don't know how the fake filesystem works.... wait, I have a thought
06:05:35 <imode> throw the ISO into the C:\ drive, it'll work.
06:05:45 <imode> dosbox iirc always resolves paths.
06:05:51 <Sgeo> Yeah, the real path will be /emulator/c/something I think
06:06:10 <imode> so just do mount -t whatever C:\foobar\whatever.iso
06:06:30 <imode> not sure what the command line options for mounting an iso.
06:06:51 <Sgeo> It won't be C:\foobar
06:06:57 <Sgeo> It will be /emulator/c/whatever.iso
06:07:20 <imode> you can use either. C:\ is just the extracted contents of your izp.
06:07:33 <imode> so if the contents of your zip contains the install CD...
06:07:41 <imode> in an ISO format... the mount command can find it.
06:08:03 <imode> in fact, give me a second, I'll test this.
06:08:07 <Sgeo> I think I'll also have to put the emularity image in C
06:08:25 <Sgeo> The installer needs to install quicktime, and does it into the Windows directory
06:08:31 <Sgeo> Unless it just needs quicktime in its path, hmm
06:10:47 <imode> yeah, so you can load the ISO directly from a mounted path like C:\
06:10:52 <imode> nothing with this unix path crap.
06:11:00 <imode> you do it via imgmount.
06:12:07 <imode> so if the path to the CD is C:\whatever.iso, just do imgmount e: "C:\whatever.iso" -t iso
06:12:13 <Sgeo> I think to save space I can use mount
06:12:18 <imode> now it's mounted on e:
06:13:38 <imode> I just tried it and I can view the ISO and such. not sure if it does anything more clever than that, but you can probably designate e: as your CD drive via another mount command.
06:32:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52563&oldid=52559 * LyricLy * (+76)
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10:23:53 <HackEgo> 242) <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!! \ 613) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness
10:24:48 <HackEgo> 1/1:735) <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
10:24:50 <HackEgo> 744) <oklopol> Gregor: i watched the first episode of MLP [...] <oklopol> Gregor: it wasn't bad, but there was very little sex and violence
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11:17:20 <shachaf> Oh, I get it. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html meant "intelligence" in the other sense of the word.
11:18:06 <HackEgo> 753) <olsner> This quote is boring
11:18:11 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't like that behavior.
11:18:49 <shachaf> Does vampire Durkon speak with a grave accent?
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12:11:41 <shachaf> newsham: Do you understand non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs? Do you know what makes them tricky?
12:38:28 <int-e> . o O ( who'd have thought that a crazy recurrence like a(n+1,k) = (k-1)*a(n,k-1) + 2*k*a(n,k) + (k+1)*a(n,k+1); a(0,1) = 1, a(0,k) = 0 otherwise would have a nice solution: a(n,k) = n! * C(n+1,k) )
12:41:17 <int-e> though that gives a(0,0) = 1, but the rest is correct.
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13:32:22 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> newsham: Do you understand non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs? Do you know what makes them tricky?" replay attacks would be my guess
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15:35:32 <wob_jonas> This electric stove and oven is great at cooking food, but the interface is horrible. The built-in digital timer has five buttons but such a stupid interface that I genuinely couldn't figure out how to work it without reading the manual twice.
15:36:36 <wob_jonas> The buttons are small, so you can't operate them in oven mittens (gloves). The display for the timer is leds, so it's impossible to read when sunlight is glaring in from the window. They could just make it an LCD display without backlight, because almost nobody cooks in the dark.
15:37:10 <wob_jonas> And the plastic knobs for the stove and oven, they're really hard to keep clean.
15:37:26 <wob_jonas> (So is the door of the oven, but that'd be hard to fix.)
15:38:41 <wob_jonas> Mind you, it's probably not the worst interface I've ever seen. My brother has an electric stove with no oven built in, and it's operated by touch buttons that are in the same plane as the stove and the kitchen desk, so you can press them accidentally too easy by
15:39:01 <wob_jonas> trying to use the stove top as storage place when it's not in use.
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16:14:21 <zzo38> In the house where I am we have a stove with six buttons; one is for the time of day, one is for a timer, and one is for setting the temperature of the oven, but I do not know what the other three buttons are for.
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16:30:16 <wob_jonas> Canon is distributing user manual for their product as a self-extracting zip archive. What are they even thinking?
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16:30:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: one button for setting the temperature? does it cycle through temperatures and you have to be careful how many times you press it to turn it off? or is it a turnable knob?
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16:33:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, all versions of windows since windows 98 have a zip extractor built into explorer, there are third party zip extractor programs available too, and I doubt they have drivers for their scanner for that old versions of windows.
16:34:24 <wob_jonas> Ok, I admit this is a type of scanner that's at least six years old, not exactly state of art thing, but still.
16:36:18 <wob_jonas> At least the manual did answer my question though.
16:44:44 <wob_jonas> do we have a command here that looks up pokemon?
16:45:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pokemon: not found
16:45:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pokedex: not found
16:45:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pokédex: not found
16:45:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pokémon: not found
16:48:14 <zzo38> wob_jonas: There is a separate dial that you can turn to control the value of the function you have selected; the buttons only select the function.
16:49:16 <zzo38> Any function is cancelled by pushing that button twice in quick succession.
16:50:37 <wob_jonas> Oh, also the oven has a light that shows when the oven is still heating, and has a buzzer for timed alarms, but it doesn't have a way to ring the buzzer when the oven has reached the required temperature, you just have to watch the light for that.
16:53:40 <zzo38> I had once also oven that didn't make the noise when the temperature is reached but this one (that I just described) does have the noise for that.
16:59:09 <wob_jonas> No buzzer for reaching the temperature alone doesn't bother me. I remember back when gas ovens not only didn't have electronic timers, but also had no electric power at all, so not only did you have to light the gas stove with a match, you also had to do some magic with a long match and a small hole to light the oven.
17:00:28 <wob_jonas> It's the combination where it already has a (presumably non-electronic) heat sensor, an indicator light for that sensor, a microcontroller and buttons for the timer, and a buzzer, but they didn't bother to connect the heat sensor indicator output to the microcontroller.
17:03:29 <wob_jonas> I also find it normal when you have to light a modern gas stove with matches (or a gas lighter with long neck), because stove spark plugs are apparently abused so much by the food that accidentally gets on them that they always have a shorter life time than the stove.
17:04:09 <wob_jonas> This is opposed to the sparker in an oven or water boiler or convection heater, which are in hard to reach places and so live for long enough.
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18:45:38 <zzo38> I have read that header fields starting with "X-" is now deprecated, but I think that should not always be avoided; you should still use "X-" in cases where the header will never be standardized perhaps because it is specified to one specific program.
18:49:39 <zzo38> Will you add my "MIXPC" implementation into esolang wiki once I make it available? Once is added, will also be added any description of the nonstandard I/O devices that it implements (music, random number generator, real time clock, and lights)?
18:50:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it's a wiki, you can just add it yourself. just make it clear which extensions don't come from Knuth.
18:51:30 <wob_jonas> lights? there's already a traffic light extension, and presumably even a standard MIX machine will have a front panel with blinking lights showing some of the processor state.
18:51:58 <wob_jonas> and there's a real time clock extension too in the book
18:52:54 <zzo38> In which book and which section?
18:53:05 <zzo38> (I do know where the traffic lights are described, but not the clock)
18:53:27 <zzo38> And yes if I add into the wiki I will certainly make it clear which extensions are non-standard of course
18:53:36 <wob_jonas> the clock is described in the machine with the system memory protection and interrupt. let me look up where exactly.
18:55:18 <zzo38> MIXPC does have the front panel with the processor state too (although you can hide it if you wish, which I put in for purpose of computer games with hidden information, but it also causes it to execute much faster because it does not need to redraw the processor state after each instruction).
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18:56:12 <wob_jonas> ch 1.4.4 exercise 18, memory location -10 is real time clock, automatically decreases by 1 every 1000 clock cycles, raises interrupt when becomes zero
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18:58:28 <zzo38> OK, although my implementation in MIXPC is different; it is a I/O device and accesses the current time of day, with hours, minutes, and seconds, in separate bytes.
18:58:35 <zzo38> (It has a record size of 1)
19:00:21 <wob_jonas> only the hours, minutes, and seconds? nothing sub-second or date?
19:02:55 <zzo38> Yes only hours, minutes, and seconds. (Although if I increase the record size to 2 then I can also include date)
19:04:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52564&oldid=49840 * Conor O'Brien * (+41)
19:04:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien/Essays]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52565 * Conor O'Brien * (+70) Created page with "Index of "essays" pertaining to esolangs are listed here. (none yet.)"
19:05:32 <wob_jonas> do you have any useful programs for this MIX machine? useful in the wide sense that is, so it might include ports of games or something
19:06:06 <zzo38> You can still simulate the traffic light program on MIXPC though, since it will (by default) display the contents of the rX register, and you can push O to toggle the overflow flag (which is also displayed). However, it just runs as fast as it does and doesn't deal with time, so you may want to modify the traffic light program to use the clock device for timing in this case.
19:06:26 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Currently, no, although you are free to write some; all standard stuff works other than floating-point and paper tape.
19:06:53 <wob_jonas> does that mean you implement the shift, multiply, divide, and compare instructions now?
19:07:26 <zzo38> Yes, it does implement those now.
19:07:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52566&oldid=52564 * Conor O'Brien * (+3) eh forgot ==
19:07:45 <zzo38> (And I fixed the other bugs too, including some that you didn't mention)
19:08:06 <wob_jonas> have you tested with some of the larger example programs from volumes 1 to 3?
19:08:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien/Essays]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52567&oldid=52565 * Conor O'Brien * (+70)
19:08:39 <wob_jonas> (you might need to get an assembler for that)
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19:09:51 <zzo38> Currently I have volumes 1 and 2 and they are due on August 2, but yes that would be a good idea I suppose. (But anyone with DOS, a DOS emulator, or a way to compile the BASIC program for other computers, will be able to test that)
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19:10:31 <zzo38> (I will release the .EXE file too so that you do not need the compiler if you do not wish to modify the program, but also the source file)
19:12:19 <zzo38> Loading the program works by loading a card deck in the card reader (the card deck file has one card per line), and then return to the main screen and push G to read the first card at address 0 and start executing from address 0.
19:13:21 <zzo38> (This is the same as the loading mechanism mentioned in the book.)
19:13:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but how do you assemble the program? have you written an assembler, or do I have to use one written by someone else? is the format of how you represent cards and tapes and disk in DOS flies documented?
19:15:12 <zzo38> I have not (yet) written an assembler. I might do so though, maybe. It does document the format of cards and tapes and disk (the document is actually incomplete, which is why I have not released the program yet, but by Thursday it should be complete.)
19:15:42 <wob_jonas> what the heck? how is the side of this sign distorted nonlinearly on this photo? this lens is of a medium angle and I don't think it has a nonlinear distortion, and the sign is stone so it can't be curved
19:16:18 <wob_jonas> but there seems to be like five pixels of curvature in the right hand side of the plaque
19:17:07 <zzo38> I just described the file format it uses for card decks, so you should be able to make card decks in such file format (or convert from other formats) even now if you want to do.
19:19:06 <wob_jonas> great. the card is the most important, but will you also describe the format for the other IO devices?
19:19:34 <wob_jonas> and can I see that description for the cards?
19:20:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Conor O'Brien * uploaded "[[File:Debuggerex.png]]": An example of a brainfuck debugger.
19:21:31 <zzo38> I do not have it on this computer yet (on Thursday I will show you). The magnetic tape and disk just use the internal format of the program, which is six bytes per MIX word for fields 0 to 5, the sign (field 0) is 0 for positive and 1 for negative.
19:22:49 <zzo38> Printer uses the same format as cards but the width is more. (If you try to read a file written for printer output by the card reader, you will get only the first 80 columns and the rest will be ignored.)
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19:24:00 <zzo38> When specifying the filename for the printer, you may specify "LPT1:" to use a printer connected to your computer.
19:24:46 <zzo38> Typewriter is interactive only and does not use files.
19:26:17 <wob_jonas> ok, but how are the characters represented on the cards?
19:26:40 <zzo38> (With a carriage return and line feed after each card)
19:26:52 <wob_jonas> wait, character set reminds me, there was something strange...
19:27:59 <zzo38> A column with positions 11 and 0 punched ("negative zero") should be represented as character code 233.
19:30:07 <zzo38> (You may need this if you are using the loader program described in the book. However, you are not limited to that loader program; you can use whatever loader program you want.)
19:30:13 <wob_jonas> so delta is character code 233? ok
19:30:40 <zzo38> Actually it represents a theta; there is no uppercase delta in the PC character set.
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19:36:42 <zzo38> (Also, for card input, any line that does not have enough columns will still be read; the rest of the columns are considered to be spaces.)
19:43:11 <zzo38> (Theta also makes some sense because it can resemble theta by overstriking a minus sign with zero; according to https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png it is even matching the Hollerith character code for minus sign and for zero.)
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20:15:05 <wob_jonas> ARGH! I started gimp, and it threw up a ton of message boxes in quick succession, apparently in an infinite loop.
20:16:04 <zzo38> Have you written a assembler for MIX programs?
20:16:59 <wob_jonas> no, I haven't. I think other people have. I think even Knuth has written one, though possibly not an assembler that runs on MIX itself
20:19:23 <zzo38> Do you know what output formats are used?
20:23:11 <wob_jonas> The output format for the assembler should be the loader input
20:23:22 <wob_jonas> the input format is MIXAL, which is described in vol 1
20:23:41 <zzo38> Yes I know the input is MIXAL
20:23:42 <wob_jonas> oh, do you mean what the non-MIX assemblers output?
20:24:00 <zzo38> I do mean what files the non-MIX implementations of MIXAL will output
20:24:18 <zzo38> But to use with MIXPC, the output also needs to include the loader card(s), otherwise it won't work.
20:25:37 <shachaf> wob_jonas: How do you mean?
20:26:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I guess "zero-knowledge" by itself doesn't imply that, but sometimes you want a proof that proves that you know something (like a private key) but without giving a way for others to give the same proof too.
20:27:09 <wob_jonas> there are interactive zero-knowledge proofs with that property
20:28:39 <wob_jonas> a fun one is described in Wettl Ferenc's chapter in ed. Hraskó András: ''Új matematikai mozaik'', a popular maths book which introduces many people here to zero-knowledge proofs
20:28:51 <wob_jonas> it introduces you to other maths stuff as well
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21:36:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien/Essays/Programming in Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52569 * Conor O'Brien * (+10284) Created page with "== Introduction == Brainfuck is a Turing tarpit, meaning it has few commands, but maintains status of "Turing complete", that is, being able to compute anything computable by..."
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22:01:58 <HackEgo> tuu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:02:09 <HackEgo> tmp//tmp/ is a directory for files that are not worth saving in HackEgo history, but which should still outlive a single command. NOTE: It interacts funnily with HackEgo's lock and re-run commit check; files can DISAPPEAR if you don't know what you're doing. Basically, don't modify files inside and outside tmp/ in the same HackEgo command.
23:02:44 <HackEgo> sgeo//Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
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23:56:29 <Sgeo> "Long-held predictions about the nature of
23:56:29 <Sgeo> particles and gravity have been proven startlingly
23:56:29 <Sgeo> correct by experiment, which sucks."
23:56:32 <wob_jonas> What text layout engine does firefox on debian use?
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00:01:28 <imode> wob_jonas: iirc the same that it does on any other system.
00:01:36 <imode> whatever mozilla's rendering engine is.
00:01:45 <wob_jonas> In particular, does it use pango for laying out text on webpages? The package does depend on pango, but that need not mean it uses it for full capability.
00:01:52 <wob_jonas> imode: ok, so what does it use on any other system?
00:02:23 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko_(software)
00:02:57 <wob_jonas> The context is that I found a quality of implementation in determining valid allowed break points, and I'm trying to find out whether I should check pango or ICU for whether it's a bug in that library, in order to possibly file a bug report.
00:03:18 <wob_jonas> s/quality of implementation/quality of implementation problem/
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00:06:28 <wob_jonas> Although it might be easier to just forget about the firefox part and test how Pango and/or ICU behaves.
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02:01:20 <HackEgo> ronald reagan//Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union.
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02:09:39 <HackEgo> 1/2:intellectual property//Intellectual property is either the plot of land where a university campus is or otherwise a property which gives something an intellectual air or appearance. \ fternooner//fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”, Icelandic „íðdegis“) is a screamingly delicious pastry. \
02:09:50 <HackEgo> 2/2: broily//broily is like boily, but more broiling. \ gaszpacho//gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
02:10:23 <HackEgo> 10161:2017-01-22 <oerjän> learn broily is like boily, but more broiling.
02:10:41 <shachaf> oerjan: what's that all about twh
02:11:24 <boily> helloochaf. I am many cooking techniques.
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02:57:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AHartNtkn * New user account
03:07:59 <HackEgo> If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it.
03:08:08 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
03:08:34 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
03:09:14 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
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03:58:26 <Sgeo> https://youtu.be/-_qWZfj49mg?t=2m45s
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04:42:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52570&oldid=52561 * AHartNtkn * (+181)
04:42:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52571 * AHartNtkn * (+9392) Initial creation
04:44:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52572&oldid=52571 * AHartNtkn * (-1)
04:46:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52573&oldid=52553 * AHartNtkn * (+88) Added DBLC
04:51:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52574&oldid=52572 * AHartNtkn * (-2) Reference implementation
04:54:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52575&oldid=52574 * AHartNtkn * (+0) Correction on toknization
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05:12:24 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
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05:54:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52576&oldid=52575 * AHartNtkn * (+170) Added categories
05:54:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52577&oldid=52576 * AHartNtkn * (-41)
05:57:35 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
06:00:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52578&oldid=52577 * AHartNtkn * (+0) /* Example: Lists */ Correction
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06:26:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52579&oldid=52578 * AHartNtkn * (+0) /* Example: 1 + 1 = 2 */ Correction
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06:57:21 <moony> Does someone have a cure to deafness by incessent beeping? Zelda: A Link To The Past. is driving my crazy.
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07:12:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought too
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07:37:36 <tuu> Hi, how can i determine if a programming language is esoteric or not?
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07:50:49 <Sgeo> http://www.calmira.net
07:50:54 <Sgeo> Windows 95 theme for Windows 3.1
07:51:02 <Sgeo> How does this still exist and receive updates into 2008?
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11:53:01 <HackEgo> off by two//An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction.
12:06:20 <int-e> . o O ( also if you get the fenceposts wrong at both ends )
12:18:53 <boily> solution: build a circular fence.
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15:02:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArnoldC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52580&oldid=52555 * TuxCrafting * (+0) fix True and False
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16:28:42 <HackEgo> olist 1087: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:10:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vowels (2017)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52581 * Ethanhowell * (+875) created page for vowels interpreter
17:12:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52582&oldid=52573 * Ethanhowell * (+20) added vowels programming language
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17:16:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vowels (2017)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52583&oldid=52581 * Ethanhowell * (-3) /* Cat.vw */
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17:22:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vowels (2017)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52584&oldid=52583 * Ethanhowell * (+282) added info box
17:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfudge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52585 * MD XF * (+1091) Created page with "Brainfudge is identical to [[Brainfuck|Brainf<nowiki>**</nowiki>k]]. {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <code>></code> |Move the po..."
17:33:51 <\oren\> Here is some human music, from earth.
17:33:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm41dHucxmM
17:34:24 <int-e> is the video a collage of anime clips?
17:34:57 <\oren\> Sgeo: A web ring? that's how u know you're into da real retro
17:36:05 <int-e> . o O ( web rings were an early amplifier of broken links )
17:36:59 <tuu> Hi, how can i determine if a programming language is esoretic or not?
17:40:11 <\oren\> Hmm, maybe we should bring back web-rings!
17:42:25 <int-e> "coteries" is a valid word for scrabble... but what does it mean...
17:42:55 <Jafet> tuu: well, it depends on the language
17:42:59 <int-e> (it's also an anagram of "esoteric")
17:43:26 <int-e> so we're an esoteric coterie, apparently
17:47:34 <\oren\> in ancient times, related websites would link to each other in a circle
17:47:38 <\oren\> with the advent of search engines, web rings, and the related structure of a web directory, died out
17:47:49 <\oren\> each site would contain in its sidebar links to the previous and next site in the ring
17:48:03 <\oren\> but some still exist in the ancient ruins of lost time, waiting to be followed once more
17:49:59 <tuu> are there something i can look at to find out?
17:52:18 <Jafet> á la recherche du liens perdu
17:53:35 <Jafet> most people consider a language to be esoteric if it doesn't look like any language they know
17:55:17 <Jafet> if we're going by what gets added to the wiki, anyway
17:56:43 <Jafet> aside from that, I don't think there are any other widely-used definitions
17:57:58 <Jafet> (perhaps you might find an answer on the Esoteric Programming Language WebRing? http://hub.webring.org/hub/esolang)
17:59:28 <tuu> it says WARNING!! THIS SITE CONTAINS ADULT MATERIALS OR MATERIALS THAT MAY BE CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE IN SOME COMMUNITIES.
18:00:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Explode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52586 * Stestoltz * (+246) Added Explode
18:01:41 <Jafet> understandable, some people find trivial brainfuck derivatives offensive
18:02:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52587&oldid=52582 * Stestoltz * (+14) Added Explode
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18:17:35 <Jafet> @ask ais523 didn't you once ask whether a language could be a derivative of itself? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfudge
18:21:41 <shachaf> Brainfunge sounds more interesting.
18:22:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Stestoltz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52588&oldid=52280 * Stestoltz * (+18)
18:24:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ಠ ಠ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52589 * MD XF * (+90) Created page with "ಠ_ಠ is a language that is being developed by the [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/]"
18:25:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ಠ ಠ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52590&oldid=52589 * MD XF * (+105)
18:34:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ಠ ಠ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52591&oldid=52590 * Stestoltz * (+26)
18:38:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ಠ ಠ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52592&oldid=52591 * HyperNeutrino * (+71) Added a link to a search query for the meme within chat
18:44:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52593&oldid=52570 * Totallyhuman * (+229) /* Introductions */
18:49:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Totallyhuman]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52594 * Totallyhuman * (+188) Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE:totallyhuman}} Hi, I am totallyhuman and I'm definitely human. No need to even doubt it. I discovered esoteric programming through PPCG and I've been stuck ever..."
18:50:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Intrnt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52595 * Totallyhuman * (+173) Created page with "[https://github.com/totallyhuman/intrnt Intrnt] is a WIP golfing language by [[User:Totallyhuman|totallyhuman]] designed for parsing webpages and doing general online stuff."
18:52:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Intrnt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52596&oldid=52595 * Totallyhuman * (+24)
18:56:01 <\oren\> whoa, you can use scp to copy from one remote host to another?
18:56:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CQuents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52597&oldid=52562 * Stestoltz * (-4)
18:56:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Stestoltz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52598&oldid=52588 * Stestoltz * (-4)
18:57:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Stestoltz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52599&oldid=52598 * Stestoltz * (+4) Undo revision 52598 by [[Special:Contributions/Stestoltz|Stestoltz]] ([[User talk:Stestoltz|talk]])
19:00:48 <\oren\> A new way to be rude: refer to someone 30 years or older as a "trigenarian", 40 or older as a "quadragenarian", 50 or older as a "quinquagenarian"
19:03:50 <shachaf> Why would you want to be rude?
19:04:24 <\oren\> shachaf: trolling is fun
19:04:42 <Jafet> it's probably just a duogenerian thing
19:05:17 <\oren\> Jafet: ITYM vigenarian
19:05:46 <\oren\> hmm, apparently it's "vicenarian"
19:06:54 <shachaf> oerjan: Is Haley the viceroy of olist?
19:09:11 <Jafet> does that mean teenagers are decadent
19:14:49 <\oren\> Jafet: no, decadent would be "ten toothed". I think my little cousin had about that many teeth last time I saw him
19:15:07 <\oren\> hopefull he has more now
19:20:19 <Jafet> some people make do with a sharp trident
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19:28:13 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn decadent/a decadent is a ten-pronged rake
19:28:14 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
19:28:22 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn decadent//a decadent is a ten-pronged rake
19:28:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'decadent': a decadent is a ten-pronged rake
19:29:38 <Jafet> raking our logs for wisdom?
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19:31:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52600&oldid=52579 * AHartNtkn * (+1876) Added representations
19:33:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52601&oldid=52600 * AHartNtkn * (+5) /* Example: 1 + 1 = 2 */ Correction to Id
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19:55:01 <int-e> such prettyness. [|1⟧ :: Language.Haskell.TH.Lib.ExpQ
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20:20:00 <FireFly> is.. is that imbalance intentional
20:22:40 <int-e> FireFly: ⟧ and |] can be used interchangably in ghc 8.2.1; similar for ⟦ and [|
20:23:01 <int-e> if you enable UnicodeSyntax, that is
20:24:48 * FireFly ponders the golf advantages of Unicode syntax (except I guess most people these days count bytes and not chars)
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20:29:11 <int-e> (personally I'm not a big fan of UnicodeSyntax; λ is a letter, and → is too short in fixed-width fonts. The universal quantifier is the only thing I might like.
20:44:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Btiffin2017 * New user account
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20:59:46 <FireFly> I like the concept, but I don't know about GHC's choice of characters
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21:06:43 <btiffin> Hello room, what's the etiquette for hosting code listings on esolangs.org? Have a sample of Befunge-98 to dump out sysinfo in human readable form, but not sure if the site is friendly to random code examples.
21:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> btiffin, do whatever you like but note: all code you put on the wiki becomes public domain
21:13:47 <shachaf> Hmm, you should upload the leaked Windows 2000 source code.
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21:18:24 <btiffin> Cool with giving the code away part, @Phantom_Hoover; it's Befunge, anyone in the public that cares, should just have it, criticize it and maybe even refactor it as whims take
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21:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i think basically any actual esolang-related content is welcome
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22:12:49 <\oren\> always changing the interfaces for no good reason except to hop on the new trend for hulahoop.js or some shit
22:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52602&oldid=52593 * Btiffin2017 * (+229) /* Introductions */
22:25:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52603&oldid=52348 * Btiffin2017 * (+2685) /* Befunge-98, adding y sysinfo display example */
22:26:38 <btiffin> Updated the Befunge-98 page, go ahead and purge if it doesn't suit site and I'll find another place to host it. (lost password, didn't update email contact - time passed - ... blarg) ;-)
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22:54:29 <HackEgo> rho//Rho is the Greek letter that represents the mind, and thus psychology is called rho science. Today's reductionists consider the mind obsolete, and prefer to study new rho science.
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22:59:22 <HackEgo> btiffin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:59:40 <btiffin> Seems I updated the wrong page, that sample is more appropriate for Funge-98 I think. Doh.
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23:00:06 <btiffin> Thanks @boily, it's been awhile since I delved into the esoterics
23:00:23 <int-e> boily: do you approve of coteries?
23:02:30 <boily> int-ello. what's a cotery?
23:03:34 <int-e> coterie, n., a small group of people with shared interests or tastes, especially one that is exclusive of other people.
23:04:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52604&oldid=46757 * Btiffin2017 * (+2694) Moved example from Befunge to here, as the more appropriate place
23:05:03 <int-e> > sort "coteries" == sort "esoteric" -- accidental discovery
23:05:36 <boily> sharing interests is fun, but exclusivity is sad.
23:06:12 <boily> but the Power of Anagramism compels me. I am dilemmed.
23:06:25 <int-e> yeah, the latter stopped me from putting it into the topic
23:06:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52605&oldid=52603 * Btiffin2017 * (-2663) /* Befunge-98, move sysinfo display example to Funge-98 page */
23:09:34 <lambdabot> *** "coterie" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:09:34 <lambdabot> n 1: an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose [syn:
23:09:34 <lambdabot> {clique}, {coterie}, {ingroup}, {inner circle}, {pack},
23:12:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52606&oldid=52605 * Btiffin2017 * (+104) /* Befunge-98 and beyond, add Rc/Funge-98 reference */
23:16:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kutta * New user account
23:16:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52607&oldid=52604 * Btiffin2017 * (+216) Added Rc/Funge, update cfunge link to GitHub current, from SourceForge.
23:17:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52608&oldid=52607 * Btiffin2017 * (+8) /* Resources fix link tag*/
23:19:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52609&oldid=52608 * Btiffin2017 * (+21) /* Resources, fix another link tag */
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23:54:20 <Sgeo> Calmira XP's start button fails that rule about buttons being on the edge of the screen when possible
23:55:41 <\oren\> apparently this is a thing! ߷
23:55:59 <\oren\> what moron added a fidget spinner emoji
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