00:00:27 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57809&oldid=57808 * Gamer * (-8) /* Commands */
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00:03:02 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57810&oldid=57809 * Gamer * (-40)
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00:15:37 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57811 * Gamer * (+308) Created page with ":''The name of the language is actually '''dotlang''' with a lowercase d, although it is typed with an uppercase D at the start of sentences. '''Dotlang''' is a two-dimensiona..."
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00:16:58 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57812&oldid=57811 * Gamer * (-7)
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00:23:22 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57813&oldid=57812 * Gamer * (+400)
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00:26:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57814&oldid=57813 * Gamer * (+76)
00:27:00 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57815&oldid=57814 * Gamer * (+16)
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00:34:02 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57816&oldid=57815 * Gamer * (+316)
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00:47:43 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57817&oldid=57816 * Gamer * (+261) /* Concept */
00:48:39 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57818&oldid=57817 * Gamer * (+0)
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00:54:28 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57819&oldid=57818 * Gamer * (+414) /* Commands */
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00:58:03 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57820&oldid=57819 * Gamer * (+154)
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00:58:49 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57821&oldid=57820 * Gamer * (-17)
01:00:37 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57822&oldid=57810 * Gamer * (+129)
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01:51:54 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57823&oldid=57821 * Gamer * (+1887)
01:55:50 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57824&oldid=57822 * Gamer * (+1)
01:55:58 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57825&oldid=57823 * Gamer * (+161)
01:57:03 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57826&oldid=57825 * Gamer * (+3)
01:57:37 <moony> someone desperately needs to learn to use previews
01:58:04 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57827&oldid=57826 * Gamer * (+1) /* Implementations */
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02:08:55 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57828&oldid=57793 * Oerjan * (+0) ginorst
02:10:51 <oerjan> since this keeps happening, i'd rather say mediawiki desperately needs to learn to _suggest_ using previews.
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02:20:51 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57829&oldid=57827 * Gamer * (+984)
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02:22:00 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57830&oldid=57829 * Gamer * (+69) /* Examples */
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02:22:24 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57831&oldid=57830 * Gamer * (-13) /* Truth machine */
02:22:37 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57832&oldid=57831 * Gamer * (-4) /* Truth machine */
02:23:30 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57833&oldid=57832 * Gamer * (+5) /* Truth machine */
02:24:20 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57834&oldid=57833 * Gamer * (+33) /* Truth machine */
02:24:33 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57835&oldid=57834 * Gamer * (-17) /* Truth machine */
02:27:02 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57836&oldid=57835 * Gamer * (-44) /* Truth machine */
02:27:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57837&oldid=57836 * Gamer * (-2) /* Truth machine */
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02:27:42 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57838&oldid=57837 * Gamer * (+3) /* Truth machine */
02:28:05 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57839&oldid=57838 * Gamer * (+18) /* Truth machine */
02:29:25 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57840&oldid=57839 * Gamer * (-42) /* Examples */
02:32:07 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57841&oldid=57840 * Gamer * (-4) /* Concept */
02:33:25 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57842&oldid=57841 * Gamer * (+1) /* Commands */
02:34:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57843&oldid=57842 * Gamer * (-1) /* Language overview */
02:35:54 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57844&oldid=57843 * Gamer * (-3) /* Language overview */
02:38:25 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57845&oldid=57844 * Gamer * (-7) /* Implementations */
02:41:43 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57846&oldid=57824 * Gamer * (-29) /* Examples */
02:42:27 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57847&oldid=57846 * Gamer * (+0) /* Commands */
02:43:50 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57848&oldid=57847 * Gamer * (-83) /* The name of the language as a program in that language */
02:44:27 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57849&oldid=57848 * Gamer * (+53) /* Entropy */
02:45:35 <zzo38> It look the UK government's list of file formats now includes farbfeld under fmt/1133, but a lot of the information is not filled in.
02:57:18 <oerjan> andrewtheircguy: you might want to use the preview button.
02:59:03 <oerjan> hm seems idle here, but logs imply it's the same guy.
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03:10:24 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57850&oldid=57845 * Gamer * (+9) ^
03:11:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57851&oldid=57850 * Gamer * (+16) /* Cat */
03:16:09 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57852&oldid=57750 * Pelirodri * (+15)
03:18:51 <esowiki> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57853&oldid=41111 * Gamer * (+39)
03:24:14 <esowiki> [[(]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57854&oldid=55735 * Gamer * (-16) /* ( */
03:28:34 <esowiki> [[(]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57855&oldid=57854 * Gamer * (-37)
03:30:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57856&oldid=57345 * A * (+113)
03:31:46 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57857&oldid=43288 * Gamer * (+24) /* Execute */
03:32:17 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57858&oldid=57856 * A * (+18) /* Normal implementations */
03:32:21 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57859&oldid=57857 * Gamer * (+19) /* Hello, world! */
03:32:42 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57860&oldid=57859 * Gamer * (+0) /* Python interpreter */
03:32:57 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57861&oldid=57860 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
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03:38:23 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57862&oldid=57858 * A * (+0) /* Normal implementations */
03:38:30 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57863&oldid=53723 * Gamer * (-7)
03:38:56 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57864&oldid=57863 * Gamer * (+5)
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03:43:32 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57865&oldid=55301 * Gamer * (+256)
03:43:59 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57866&oldid=57865 * Gamer * (+1)
03:44:26 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57867&oldid=57866 * Gamer * (+16)
03:45:05 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57868&oldid=57867 * Gamer * (-5)
03:45:34 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57869&oldid=57868 * Gamer * (+34)
03:47:51 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57870&oldid=57698 * Gamer * (+25)
03:50:15 <esowiki> [[2014]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57871&oldid=52834 * Gamer * (-59) /* Implementation */
03:57:28 <esowiki> [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57872&oldid=52374 * Gamer * (-140)
04:00:11 <esowiki> [[Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57873&oldid=50113 * Gamer * (+29)
04:06:02 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57874&oldid=57849 * Gamer * (+145)
04:09:51 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57875&oldid=57851 * Gamer * (+130)
04:10:30 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57876&oldid=57874 * Gamer * (+22)
04:20:46 <esowiki> [[Baz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57877&oldid=37052 * Gamer * (+91) /* Commands */
04:23:37 <esowiki> [[Baz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57878&oldid=57877 * Gamer * (-13) /* Programs */
04:25:08 <esowiki> [[Baz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57879&oldid=57878 * Gamer * (-14) /* Interpreter in Ruby */
04:29:48 <HackEso> smissntacoin lenspecificoin bickencomiccoin platthuecoin rfoloncoin illmarylogcoin filitcoin advercoin hanocoin idlequitcoin bam1coin orookhivatcoin lambinimachecoin owncoin corkcoin fylicoin densiscoin sortsolcoin wiksundcoin changecoin
04:30:19 <esowiki> [[Compute]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57880&oldid=24659 * Gamer * (+1)
04:32:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the bee movie script]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57881&oldid=54257 * Gamer * (+0)
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07:55:03 <shachaf> Taneb: imo you should go hth
07:55:22 <Taneb> shachaf: I'd rather stay
07:55:26 <Taneb> If that's all right
07:55:45 <Taneb> (I'm completely missing context here)
07:55:46 <shachaf> not a fan of noether's theorem?
07:56:20 <shachaf> <shachaf> Taneb: Are you going to John Baez's talk next week?
07:56:48 <Taneb> I hadn't seen that
07:58:32 <Taneb> Do you have a link with details?
07:58:34 <Taneb> It sounds interesting
07:58:39 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/johncarlosbaez/status/1045848789183950849
08:00:16 <Taneb> Might be easier for me to go to the one on Saturday in London
08:00:59 <shachaf> I don't know the geography of England so I figured those were infinitely apart
08:01:11 <shachaf> I think it's on an island?
08:01:55 <Taneb> It takes me about an hour to get to London, and then another hour to get to where I want to be in London
08:02:25 <Taneb> So, it would take me longer to get there, but on the other hand I normally have a job on Thursday afternoons
08:05:37 <shachaf> quit your job and then go to the thing in Cambridge
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08:06:13 <shachaf> quitting your job saves you a lot of time
08:22:44 <zzo38> I think that generators in JavaScript form two kind of monads, one with the return values and one with the yield values. Is it, or did I make some mistake?
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08:29:11 <zzo38> In the first case, fmap changes "return x" to "return f(x)" and join changes "return x" to "return yield*x", but in second case, fmap changes "yield x" to "yield f(x)" and join changes "yield x" to "yield*x".
08:29:59 <zzo38> Now can you follow?
08:33:14 <shachaf> No. I guess I don't know JavaScript generators very well.
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08:43:17 <shachaf> Cale: What was that example you gave me of a vector space without a natural basis once? I think it was you
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08:49:08 <Cale> shachaf: Uh, perhaps continuous functions on R?
08:49:34 <Cale> Or the real numbers as a vector space over the rationals.
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09:03:37 <shachaf> I mean a finite-dimensional vector space
09:03:43 <shachaf> Maybe it was someone else?
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14:19:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57882&oldid=56643 * Digital Hunter * (+189) /* Someone should change the featured language. */
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15:45:39 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57883&oldid=57876 * Andrew3335 * (+47)
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16:46:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57884&oldid=57882 * Zzo38 * (+150)
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17:21:54 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57885&oldid=57875 * Gamer * (+239)
17:26:36 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57886&oldid=57883 * Gamer * (-34)
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18:21:37 <zzo38> In one story I heard of once (I forget the details) if some aliens will receive a television broadcast they did not know the colours because the broadcast didn't have the colours. But I said that even if they did have colours, they still likely would not know the colours, because the NTSC colour broadcasts use an encoding for the colours and if you do not decode them you can get the picture without the colours.
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18:37:02 <wob_jonas> The ICFP contest results are out since last week. Save them from https://icfpcontest2018.github.io/
18:41:26 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57887&oldid=57852 * Pelirodri * (+13)
18:43:40 <pikhq_> zzo38: And the same is true for PAL and SECAM signals.
18:43:58 <pikhq_> The encoded color signals can be extracted, but it's fairly non-obvious what they mean.
18:44:12 <pikhq_> While you can kinda guess at how the luma signal is encoded and get something coherent.
18:44:43 <pikhq_> Especially if you happen to get a test pattern.
18:48:33 <zzo38> I cannot find the plot of the XYZABCDE.ZZT game in the list of plots in the All The Tropes (although there is a lot and I did not look at the details for each one). Do you know?
18:51:33 <wob_jonas> pikhq_: that's partly because those signals have some non-trivial design requirements: they make the broadcast compatible with the previous black and white television, so they put the chrominance in some extra spaces, and they make it so that there's less chrominance information, and that if the analog signal is too noisy, the TV can fall back to o
18:51:33 <wob_jonas> nly luminance or only Y+V without U
18:52:28 <wob_jonas> pikhq_: also SECAM is a deliberately esoteric format, because PAL uses the simplest method, and they made SECAM deliberately different so that people couldn't easily modify their SECAM televisions to watch PAL broadcasts from the west.
18:53:11 <zzo38> O, is that why SECAM is difference? I did not know
18:53:19 <pikhq_> That's kinda false. SECAM is *French*.
18:53:42 <pikhq_> That is why Soviet block countries adopted it, but the standard is Western.
18:53:51 <wob_jonas> They also had other methods to detect people who watched PAL broadcasts, and pretty cool ones, mind you: they could detect the station with the back of the television turned in a room from outside the window just by checking the correlation of the brightness of the room as time changes to every channel they could access.
18:54:44 <wob_jonas> pikhq_: that's not a problem, they didn't want to stop the west from seeing SECAM television broadcasts, only the reverse
18:55:10 <pikhq_> Yes, it's just that that desire isn't *why* SECAM is the way it is.
18:55:39 <pikhq_> SECAM is the way it is for just more arbitrary nationalist reasons.
18:55:44 <wob_jonas> pikhq_: why is it harder to decode than PAL then?
18:56:33 <pikhq_> Because Henri de France felt the more complex scheme gave better results.
18:57:13 <pikhq_> Thus, Séquentiel couleur à mémoire is more complex.
18:57:46 <wob_jonas> I hear the simple method of putting a transparent film on the TV screen, colored blue on the top and green at the bottom, gave acceptible results for watching football matches.
18:58:01 <pikhq_> Should be noted, for France there was already a compatibility issue: France used positive, rather than negative, luma modulation.
18:58:29 <pikhq_> So you couldn't really tune foreign TV signals *anyways*.
18:58:34 <wob_jonas> Grayscale television is why football judges wore black-white striped uniform for a while, and the two teams colored and white shirts respectively. They changed that by now.
18:58:45 <wob_jonas> The white shirts are still mostly there, but the striped uniform is gone.
18:59:22 <wob_jonas> pikhq_: the better, that just means with your SECAM TVs, you couldn't watch western TV stations even in greyscale
18:59:29 <zzo38> (The start of the plot of this game is that your wing suddenly broke while flying to Mornington Crescent, and so you have to get your wing fixed and reach Mornington Crescent, but they put all stuff in the way and hid the keys all everywhere, and some people hate this kind of monsters characters anyways, too; but you can also achieve other stuff such as fixing a computer in the Pokemon center and uncovering police corruption.)
18:59:32 <pikhq_> wob_jonas: French was Western.
18:59:44 <pikhq_> And the positive mdoulation thing was *just* French.
18:59:51 <pikhq_> No other SECAM users do it that way.
19:00:02 <wob_jonas> pikhq_: oh, so that wasn't used for the rest of the SECAM users? that's strange
19:00:08 <wob_jonas> so there were four formats, not three?
19:00:39 <pikhq_> Actually, rather a lot more. PAL-over-RF is modulated subtly different from country to country.
19:01:31 <pikhq_> There's like 7 or 8 distinct broadcast TV systems, with 3 ways color can be done.
19:01:43 <wob_jonas> I mean, there were already two different FM *radio* spectrum bands, one for west and one for east.
19:02:03 <wob_jonas> But we no longer use the eastern one.
19:02:26 <wob_jonas> We only use one of the FM, and one of the three AM bands.
19:02:40 <pikhq_> For instance, Brazil uses PAL-M, and Laos uses SECAM-M. Which is compatible with all NTSC TVs, but only in black and white.
19:03:14 <pikhq_> (there's only one NTSC system)
19:03:19 <wob_jonas> And the difference is in video, not the audio, right?
19:03:44 <pikhq_> The audio varies between FM and AM, and with a different subcarrier based on the system.
19:04:36 <wob_jonas> Yeah, but people already had FM radios by that time, and I think the FM radio system is even somewhat compatible with the TV one, except maybe it needs an extra diode for polarity duplex or whatever magic that is..
19:04:43 <wob_jonas> I don't really understand how that works.
19:07:07 <pikhq_> And all this is ignoring the weirdo historical formats, like France's 737i scheme, and the UK's 377i scheme.
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19:33:53 <SopaXorzTaker> <wob_jonas> Yeah, but people already had FM radios by that time, and I think the FM radio system is even somewhat compatible with the TV one, except maybe it needs an extra diode for polarity duplex or whatever
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19:47:15 <esowiki> [[Cappuccino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57888&oldid=57573 * Joshop * (+495)
19:49:04 <esowiki> [[Cappuccino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57889&oldid=57888 * Joshop * (+70)
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20:09:20 <wob_jonas> SopaXorzTaker: as in, when we had analog TV broadcasts (they're no longer done used in Hungary), you could listen to their audio with a slightly modified FM radio receiver, because they have basically the same encoding, only at a somewhat different frequency range allocated for TV than for radio.
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01:20:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57890&oldid=57862 * A * (+53) /* Normal implementations */
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01:31:05 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57891&oldid=57890 * A * (+0) /* Normal implementations */
01:31:35 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is wearing shorts despite the weather
01:31:37 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is wearing shorts despite the weather
01:32:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 020050Z 12004KT CAVOK 01/01 Q1004 RMK WIND 670FT 13005KT
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01:37:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57892&oldid=57891 * A * (+0) /* Normal implementations */
01:42:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57893&oldid=57892 * A * (+0) /* Normal implementations */
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04:37:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bf core]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57894 * A * (+166) Created page with "==Purpose of "DB 3Dh"== What is the purpose of "DB 3Dh" in your code? I think deleting the "DB 3Dh"s can get rid of 3 bytes in your code. --[[User:A]] 12:37 2018/10/2"
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05:41:54 <oerjan> the whiteboard comic seems to have expired its domain or something.
05:43:03 <oerjan> or possible just a bad server
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08:46:57 <esowiki> [[Probie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57895&oldid=53486 * Heartade * (+738)
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09:19:00 <esowiki> [[Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57896&oldid=57873 * Ais523 * (-29) Undo revision 57873 by [[Special:Contributions/Gamer|Gamer]] ([[User talk:Gamer|talk]]): the edit doesn't hurt the page much, but it doesn't improve it either
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11:04:22 <wob_jonas> switch (bitnum) { case 0: mask = 0x1; break; case 1: mask = 0x2; break; case 2: mask = 0x4; break; case 3: mask = 0x8; break; case 4: mask = 0x10; break; case 5: mask = 0x20; break; case 6: mask = 0x40; break; case 7: mask = 0x80; break; this goes on for 31*3 lines (each case, assignment, and break are in separate lines)
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14:03:48 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57897&oldid=57667 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */ I feel like this would make more sense, since to keep it consistent with the preceding function it should have it that the referenced cell variable is the one that is inside parentheses and the first cell is the one doing stuff
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14:57:00 <wob_jonas> stupid scanner wouldn't write any metadata into the file besides the resolution. how am I supposed to easily figure out what settings to set on the scanner if I don't want to get such terrible quality images then?
14:57:22 <wob_jonas> do I have to write everything I enter in the check boxes myself? isn't the software supposed to be able to do that sort of thing for me?
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14:59:44 <wob_jonas> also, why was it scanning in only 200 dpi when I tried to set it to 300 dpi?
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15:59:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Golfist * New user account
16:32:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57898&oldid=57795 * Golfist * (+65) /* Introductions */
16:33:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57899&oldid=57898 * Golfist * (+8)
16:34:03 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57900&oldid=37804 * Golfist * (+18308) Fixed and added examples
16:41:19 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57901&oldid=57900 * Golfist * (+2133) Added interpreter
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20:18:25 <wob_jonas> Why would anyone make such a stupid design as sending you a use-once code in email every time you log in but the code is valid only for 10 minutes?
20:19:52 <wob_jonas> Also after I log in, half of the interface doesn't work.
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00:46:12 <\oren\> an alternative to currying for making every function unary, is to make every function treated as recieving a single argument which is a tuple
00:47:39 <\oren\> well I guess apply is still binary
00:48:55 <\oren\> ```fxyz ---> `f``T``Txyz
00:48:56 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``fxyz: not found
00:49:43 <\oren\> where T is the tuple-creation function, which given x returns a function, which given y, returns the tuple x,y
00:51:39 <\oren\> in a js-like language this removes the distinction between the comma in f(x,y) and the [,] one in f([x,y])
00:53:56 <shachaf> \oren: I've discussed this in here before.
00:54:59 <shachaf> I think it would be very reasonable in a C++-ish language
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00:55:20 <shachaf> Or C-ish, with support for something resembling tuples.
00:55:30 <shachaf> And also structs (for keyword arguments) and so on.
00:55:39 <shachaf> But I haven't worked out the details, you should help me do that.
01:00:46 <\oren\> I mean basically in C the declaration void f(struct {int x; int y;} p); would replace void f(int x, int y);
01:01:34 <shachaf> Right, but what sort of type inference thing would you have?
01:02:27 <shachaf> If you write something like f((blah, {.x = 5, .y = 8}));, do you need to know the type of f to figure out the type of the expression?
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01:06:15 <\oren\> well in C structs with the same member types in the same order are interconvertible
01:07:07 <shachaf> So you're suggesting there'd be an implicit conversion from the inferred type for the struct to the type that f accepts?
01:07:21 <shachaf> I was thinking along those lines.
01:07:23 <\oren\> but that isn't extended to allow struct{struct{int x}, struct{int x}} to be converted to struct{int x,int y}
01:07:36 <\oren\> if it were though, this would work better
01:07:57 <shachaf> It should also have varargs support of some sort.
01:08:09 <shachaf> Which I think should be easy enough probably?
01:08:30 <shachaf> Of course C-style varargs is scow anyway, but you can make something similar which isn't
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01:10:37 <shachaf> I'm a little wary of lots of implicit type coercions.
01:10:48 <shachaf> But maybe it's not so bad if they're pretty clear?
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01:18:23 <shachaf> The ALGOL 68 coercion rules look too complicated to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68#Coercions:_casting
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01:27:34 <shachaf> So one thing about C is that you can't write "int x, y; ...; swap(x, y);", like in C++
01:27:49 <shachaf> You have to explicitly indicate that you're passing memory locations rather than values.
01:27:54 <shachaf> That seems like a feature to me.
01:28:13 <shachaf> But with ALGOL 68-style REF T -> T coercion, you don't indicate that.
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03:41:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Black Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57902&oldid=55533 * Wright * (+72) a second rather-late reply + a retroactive toning-down of my original message
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07:57:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Amicloud * New user account
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08:06:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57903&oldid=57899 * Amicloud * (+314)
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08:21:55 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57904&oldid=55325 * Amicloud * (+522) /* Interpreters */
08:23:24 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57905&oldid=57904 * Amicloud * (+284) /* Befunge-93 */
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11:19:33 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57906 * Joshop * (+372) Created page with "== Description == Falsebrain9Q+fishload is an ingenious combination of many esolangs: [[False]], [[Brainf*ck]], [[H9Q+]], [[Deadfish]], and [[Underload]]. It has two stacks, a..."
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11:20:25 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57907&oldid=57906 * Joshop * (+17)
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11:34:33 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57908&oldid=57907 * Joshop * (+706)
11:35:28 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57909&oldid=57908 * Joshop * (+23)
11:42:18 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57910&oldid=57909 * Joshop * (+273)
11:43:25 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57911&oldid=57910 * Joshop * (+0)
11:43:38 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57912&oldid=57911 * Joshop * (+0)
11:43:55 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57913&oldid=57912 * Joshop * (+0)
11:47:56 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57914&oldid=57913 * Joshop * (+0)
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15:27:12 <wob_jonas> "<oren> to make every function treated as recieving a single argument which is a tuple" => should I tell you a little about some precedents for that in the low-level core language of Wikiplia, or the things close to that in rust and scheme?
15:28:02 <wob_jonas> I assume you already know about argument passing in perl, which is like that too, but with some specific optimizations.
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17:40:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Artoria2e5 * New user account
17:41:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57915&oldid=57903 * Artoria2e5 * (+143) /* Introductions */
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17:48:01 <esowiki> [[Numberwang/Implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57916&oldid=54156 * Artoria2e5 * (-84)
17:48:12 <esowiki> [[Numberwang/Implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57917&oldid=57916 * Artoria2e5 * (+84) Undo revision 57916 by [[Special:Contributions/Artoria2e5|Artoria2e5]] ([[User talk:Artoria2e5|talk]])
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19:43:42 <wob_jonas> I just got my hands on “Satan, Cantor, and Infinity and other mind-boggling puzzles”, a pop-sci book by Raymond Smullyan. No spoilers please. I've only read a few pages yet, but I'm already captivated by Smullyan's unique style. If you read his other pop-sci books, you'll know what I'm talking about, otherwise I can't really describe it.
19:50:15 <wob_jonas> I have five of his other books on my bookshelf, and have read parts of two others, but this particular book was never translated to Hungarian, which is why I hadn't read it before.
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19:51:15 <wob_jonas> Also, Raymond Smullyan died on 2017-02-06. Rest in peace. Smullyan, we'll never see anyone equal to you.
19:52:14 <wob_jonas> Hmm, let me check how exactly the Lewis Carol book phrases that.
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19:57:26 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass,_and_What_Alice_Found_There/Chapter_VII
19:58:46 <wob_jonas> > "There's nothing like eating hay when you're faint," he remarked to her, as he munched away. / "I should think throwing cold water over you would be better," Alice suggested: "——or some sal-volatile." / "I didn't say there was nothing *better*," the King replied. "I said there was nothing *like* it." Which Alice did not venture to deny.
19:58:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:72: error: parse error on input ‘,’
20:09:05 <zzo38> I thought of some kind of chess variant, "get out of the way" chess variant. After you move one piece, if it does not put or leave either player in check, you may optionally make a second move, but the second move must be a different piece (still your own piece though), and must be a move that would not be possible if the first piece hadn't moved out of the way, and can't put anyone in check.
20:09:46 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57918&oldid=57901 * Oerjan * (-2133) Undo revision 57901 by [[Special:Contributions/Golfist|Golfist]] ([[User talk:Golfist|talk]]) (Copyvio)
20:12:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hehe, you came at the right time, mentioning such a chess variant when I was just talking about Smullyan
20:20:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of a revision on page [[Chicken]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
20:21:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: just out of curiosity, have you read some of Smullyan's writings?
20:22:44 <wob_jonas> (Yeah, ok. I keep arguing that English and French and Hungarian uses articles practically the same way, so if you know one well then the use of articles in the other two languages should be easy to learn, but that mistake above proves me wrong.)
20:24:01 <zzo38> I wanted to, but have not ever done so I think
20:24:04 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57919&oldid=57918 * Oerjan * (+24) Looks dead
20:24:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not saying you have to, they're rather strange books and I can understand if someone doesn't like them, I'm just curios.
20:25:02 <zzo38> I don't know, because I have not read it.
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20:38:18 <zzo38> Is there a Haskell implementation in JavaScript that is independent of the host environment?
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20:45:36 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57920&oldid=57905 * Amicloud * (+5) /* befunge93.js */
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22:48:44 <shachaf> So the magic (?) of lvalues in C is that they reliably decay to rvalues in most contexts.
22:48:56 <shachaf> Except e.g. as the operand of = or &
22:49:26 <shachaf> That's different from automatic dereferencing like in ALGOL 68
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01:17:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JonoCode9374 * New user account
01:22:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57921&oldid=57915 * JonoCode9374 * (+167) Introduced myself
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02:44:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Levistep32 * New user account
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02:53:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57922&oldid=57921 * Levistep32 * (+165)
02:54:15 <esowiki> [[User:Levistep32]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57923 * Levistep32 * (+112) Created page with "Hi, I'm '''levistep32'''! I like esolangs, especially Brainfuck and Chef. I want to make my own someday as well."
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13:40:14 <esowiki> [[Binaryfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57924&oldid=36329 * A * (+96) Implementation
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13:41:28 <esowiki> [[Binaryfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57925&oldid=57924 * A * (+41) forgot to add specification
13:43:09 <esowiki> [[Binaryfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57926&oldid=57925 * A * (+37) More specifications.
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15:41:02 <HackEso> 546) <itidus20> my old 2d game is named either runch or turbo fight.... and its hard \ 655) <Phantom_Hoover> Incest, the enemy of graph theorists everywhere.
15:44:35 <int-e> Of course incest is also a necessity if you don't want to die out after log_2(n) generations, where n is the initial population size.
15:46:46 <Taneb> iirc the context for that was me trying to draw out the family tree of Odysseus, which happened to be completely unincestuous
15:47:14 <Taneb> Odysseus had two different children by two women, and each child ended up married to the other's mother, I think
15:47:22 <Taneb> Of course, incest is relative
15:49:44 <HackEso> rdococ:rdococ was thought to be from Budapest, then Mars, but he is actually in Airstrip One. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
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17:07:16 <esowiki> [[BFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57927&oldid=57624 * Sinthorion * (+28)
17:08:40 <esowiki> [[BFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57928&oldid=57927 * Sinthorion * (+128)
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20:41:53 <zzo38> Do you know anything about the "smart port" used to connect hotel television sets to the "TV interface module" boxes? By observation over time I have figured what things the protocol is probably capable of, which includes changing the channel, displaying the TV's menu, turning the TV on/off, and intercepting IR signals; I do not know if anything else. At least some models seem to support "numeric select mode".
20:46:46 <zzo38> (I tried disconnecting it in order to use the external inputs, but it did not work. I tried figuring out how to perform a factory reset on that model of TV set, but apparently it requires a special remote control.)
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20:50:01 <zzo38> (The menu did include a setting to switch the audio input, but there was no video input setting. It also lacked aspect ratio settings (or any other picture settings), and the only settings for captions is which caption to display, not the font styles or anything like that.)
20:52:34 <zzo38> The device I was trying to connect was a Raspberry Pi computer. I tried to determine if Raspberry Pi supports CEC. Apparently it does, although that program is not installed by default (and it is difficult to install it if the display cannot be connected). Even if it can be installed, we have to see, will the TV set acknowledge the CEC command?
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23:50:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57929&oldid=57683 * Dylanbeattie * (+15) Added link to Rockstar page
23:53:43 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57930&oldid=57752 * Dylanbeattie * (+124)
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02:32:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57931&oldid=57893 * A * (+111)
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03:08:09 <Sgeo_> I did a thing https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1048017789884067840
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05:24:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JonoCode9374 * uploaded "[[File:Code box.png]]"
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05:41:37 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57933&oldid=57931 * A * (+0)
05:41:41 <shachaf> Sgeo_: I was hoping that'd be a new olist
05:41:54 <shachaf> Should we expect the update Fri or Sat?
05:42:37 <Sgeo_> It should come sometime before THEC64 hands over their source code as required by the GPL
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05:59:21 <zzo38> What other Magic: the Gathering cards do you like to make up (both Un-cards and proper cards)? I did some Un-cards such as, you must rip this card in half as you draft it, and one card "bands with other creatures having at least as much faith as this one"
06:02:09 <zzo38> It is meaningless, but that card also has the "faith-healing" keyword ability (which is not defined anywhere, because it is a priest of the future who has not even been invented yet, presumably)
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06:06:09 <zzo38> And one card has "blanding" (this creature is less interesting than the other creatures).
06:09:02 <zzo38> One card (suggested by my brother) is "In A Band With Others": When enchanted creature attacks as part of a band including other creatures too, then the active player must sing a song for the entire duration of the attack. Damage is not dealt until song is completed.
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06:32:05 <esowiki> [[Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57934&oldid=54651 * A * (+22) bf core
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06:49:43 <zzo38> What is the legal defence if you asked someone who has stolen someone else's pig for the pig back, and they refuse several times, and then you go in and get it (ending up killing people who are attacking you to get it) and a wheelbarrow (to carry the pig) and bring it back to its rightful owner, who then returns the wheelbarrow?
07:08:35 <shachaf> I think the parenthetical bit where you kill the people might be a bit problematic.
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08:35:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: "the only settings for captions is which caption to display, not the font styles or anything like that" =>
08:35:03 <wob_jonas> AFAIK, at least on DVD video formats, captions are included as some sort of compressed bitmap image, not text. This was done because back when the first DVD players appeared, they were really primitive, and they didn't want to guarantee that they have a font rendering support for all current and future script, including ones that require tricky eng
08:36:05 <wob_jonas> These days people also use captions as time-tagged text in a separate file for videos played on a computer, mostly to allow fan-made English captions for anime.
08:36:49 <wob_jonas> I can't help with your original caption on hotel TV connection.
08:37:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: "What other Magic: the Gathering cards do you like to make up (both Un-cards and proper cards)?" => there's a few I mentioned in the logs.
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08:41:28 <wob_jonas> My favorite is still this old one that is probably balanced and non-un but probably won't be published in an official set. Name not known yet; Mana cost: 1W; Type: Enchantment Aura; Text: Enchant creature / All permanents have protection from enchanted creature.
08:42:18 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re "bands with other creatures having at least as much faith as this one" => That's made for the new "bands with" rule, right?
08:45:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re stolen pig, I don't know the answer, but perhaps look at http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=871 and following comics for at least a partial answer in the U.S.
08:55:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: on the more practical side of the stolen pig: (1) don't do that; (2) if you've done that or are seriously planning to do that, get a lawyer; (3) if your pig is stolen, you asked for it and they don't give it back, you still want the pig back, and you can convince others that it's probably your pig, then report that to the police.
08:56:58 <wob_jonas> If you know where the pig is, the police can likely help you to get it back.
09:39:24 <wob_jonas> Argh! I'd like to name a readme file such that it's sorted first in many directory listing sort methods people generally use, and the files in this directory have names like "img7556-*.jpg" and "P1*.JPG". "00README.1ST" would work and is a common convention (or used to be) but is so ugly that I don't want to use it.
09:39:40 <wob_jonas> The best method may be to rename all those other files.
09:41:07 <wob_jonas> Yeah, that's what I'll do, rename the files to more reasonable names.
09:41:46 <wob_jonas> I won't do 8.3 names because we're finally past the time when that matters (in most situations), but I still won't use very long names, because I hate those.
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10:50:36 <wob_jonas> which still isn't perfect, because if you sort by _extension_ (which isn't rare), then that file is last, after the *.jpg, but I don't care about that
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12:10:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57935&oldid=57933 * A * (-64)
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13:01:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: just start the file name with a space :P
13:06:44 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, that can be funny. windows 10 File Explorer's version-sort sorts such a filename before other filenames because of the space, but if you try to rename it in File Explorer by removing the space but changing nothing else, it refuses saying that "The source and destination filenames are the same",
13:07:49 <wob_jonas> despite that the filenames aren't the same according to the file system, and that File Explorer allows renames that differ only in uppercase vs lowercase, which are the same according to the file system.
13:08:12 <wob_jonas> File Explorer is strange: it refuses you to rename files to start with a dot, despite that the file system and the "REN" builtin of cmd allows such renames.
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13:09:12 <wob_jonas> And if you try to rename a file to start with a space in File Explorer, it silently strips the space and does the rename that way.
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14:15:14 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57936&oldid=57930 * Dylanbeattie * (-7) /* Implementations */
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14:23:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38 and others: this one is a week old but hasn't been posted yet: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/guilds-ravnica-update-bulletin-2018-09-28 M:tG Guilds of Ravnica Update Bulletin
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14:30:47 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57937&oldid=57885 * Andrew3335 * (-142)
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15:14:40 <wob_jonas> wtf? they printed a sunburst creature in Guilds of Ravnica? without mentioning "sunburst"? wow
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15:36:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ouch. http://magiccards.info just redirects to scryfall now. that's sad, because magiccards.info was actually better in some things. but then, these M:tG card databases are hard to keep up to date, so I can understand it. so now we have only scryfall and yawgatog, besides Wizards' own terrible site.
15:36:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that makes it more important to scrape all that data, repeat that four times a year, and save local copies of everything
15:38:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you collect and publish the comp rules and card history anywhere currently?
15:39:51 <wob_jonas> `fetch http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt share/mtg/MagicCompRules-20181005.txt
15:39:52 <HackEso> http:/media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt: No such file or directory
15:40:23 <wob_jonas> `fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules-20181005.txt http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt
15:40:24 <HackEso> 2018-10-05 15:40:23 URL:http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt [707789/707789] -> "share/mtg/MagicCompRules-20181005.txt" [1]
15:41:46 <wob_jonas> `fetch share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip https://yawgatog.com/resources/oracle/All%20Sets-2018-05-21.zip
15:41:49 <HackEso> 2018-10-05 15:41:48 URL:https://yawgatog.com/resources/oracle/All%20Sets-2018-05-21.zip [825483/825483] -> "share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip" [1]
15:41:59 <wob_jonas> `unzip share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip
15:42:00 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unzip: not found
15:42:06 <wob_jonas> `gunzip share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip
15:42:06 <HackEso> gzip: share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored
15:42:17 <wob_jonas> `gzip -dc share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip
15:42:18 <HackEso> gzip: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `gzip --help' for more information.
15:42:25 <wob_jonas> ``` gzip -dc share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip
15:42:26 <HackEso> "Ach! Hans, Run!" \ 2RRGG \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of your upkeep, you may say "Ach! Hans, run! It's the . . ." and the name of a creature card. If you do, search your library for a card with that name, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. That creature gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step. \ UNH-R \ \ "Rumors of My Death . . ." \ 2B \ Enchantment \ {3}{B}, Exile a permanent you control with a League of
15:42:38 <wob_jonas> ``` gzip -dc share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip > allsets-2018-05-21.txt
15:43:12 <wob_jonas> ``` rm -v allsets-*.txt; gzip -dc share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.zip > share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.txt
15:43:14 <HackEso> removed 'allsets-2018-05-21.txt'
15:43:27 <wob_jonas> ``` wc share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.txt
15:43:27 <HackEso> 131997 588226 3552253 share/mtg/allsets-2018-05-21.txt
15:43:45 <wob_jonas> ``` ln -s allsets-2018-05-21.txt share/mtg/allsets.txt
15:43:46 <HackEso> ln: failed to create symbolic link 'share/mtg/allsets.txt': File exists
15:43:51 <wob_jonas> ``` ln -sf allsets-2018-05-21.txt share/mtg/allsets.txt
15:44:04 <HackEso> Coiling Oracle \ GU \ Creature -- Snake Elf Druid \ 1/1 \ When Coiling Oracle enters the battlefield, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put that card into your hand. \ DIS-C, C15-C, CN2-U, C16-C, MM3-C, DDO-C
15:46:17 <HackEso> Shivan Fire \ R \ Instant \ Kicker {4} (You may pay an additional {4} as you cast this spell.) \ Shivan Fire deals 2 damage to target creature. If this spell was kicked, it deals 4 damage to that creature instead. \ DOM-C
15:46:45 <wob_jonas> hmm, so yawgatog doesn't even have the M2019 set yet
15:47:11 <wob_jonas> or Core set 2019 or whatever that's called
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16:06:19 <HackEso> Evolving Wilds \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Evolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ ROE-C, CMD-C, DKA-C, M13-C, C13-C, M15-C, C14-C, DTK-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, BFZ-C, C15-C, CN2-C, C16-C, AKH-C, CMA-C, C17-C, IMA-C, RIX-C, DDH-C, DDK-C, DDN-C, DDO-C, DDP-C
16:06:23 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name terramorphic expanse
16:06:23 <HackEso> Terramorphic Expanse \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Terramorphic Expanse: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ TSP-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, ARC-C, M11-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MMA-C, C13-C, C14-C, C15-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDE-C, DDH-C, DDN-C, H09-C
16:07:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ^ apparently the text difference is now fixed in Gatherer. let me try to find out when they did that.
16:09:22 <wob_jonas> Interesting. It doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of the recent Update Bulletins, despite that it must have changed recently, since they still differ in Yawgatog.
16:15:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the strange part is that both cards have printed versions with the dot and with the comma. The latest printed versions and the most recent oracle text has the comma.
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16:55:04 <zzo38> I have now downloaded the new rules.
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17:13:37 <zzo38> I am not going to to the stuff with the stolen pig of course though; it is for a game. Those attackers who prevented us are not necessarily dead but probably are, but they were attacking with crossbow and hatchet. (Actually, one of us stole the arrows from the crossbow too.)
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18:03:30 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57938&oldid=57482 * DMC * (+7)
18:10:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binaryfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57939&oldid=36330 * DMC * (+69)
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18:44:22 <wob_jonas> From an automatic email response: "We process customer contacts in the order they are received" wait what?
18:44:24 <wob_jonas> Isn't such a guarantee silly to make in case you want to grow your customer service department to more than one person working independently at the same time? In fact, since this is a large organization, I suspect the sentence is already a lie because customer support is already bigger than that.
18:45:22 <wob_jonas> Computer scientists have already ran into that problem a few times when they started optimizing CPUs or compilers but wanted to keep various guarantees the old documentation promised or the old code assumed.
18:46:07 <wob_jonas> Mind you, there's an even worse version, the one where you are not only guaranteed to process requests in order, but also assign them sequential ID numbers without gaps or the lowest currently unused descriptor number.
18:46:27 <shachaf> "process" might mean something weaker
18:47:04 <shachaf> Maybe there's one customer queue and customers are "processed" by passing them to a person
18:47:31 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, it might mean that they only _start_ to process my request, and if it is a request that requires a longer time to solve then they'll respond to me and put it into background.
18:47:46 <shachaf> Maybe they don't call that processing anymore.
18:48:15 <wob_jonas> shachaf: but if the meaning of "process" is practically nothing, then why put that sentence there at all?
18:49:20 <shachaf> The phrasing I find very strange is "your request will be processed in the order it was received"
18:50:44 <wob_jonas> I recall linux has had some minor trouble on multi-threaded programs because unix and SUSV and POSIX guarantees that new file descriptions always get the lowest free natural number as their ID, and there are now pseudo-file-descriptors for all sorts of resources a process can hold, and each thread can create or dup new file descriptors or close exi
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18:51:52 <wob_jonas> So you may have to lock across multiple CPUs at the same time for that, which very rarely causes a problem, but is nevertheless entirely silly, because no sane program actually wants to rely on that behavior across multiple threads, but it's still too late to change the guarantee now.
18:53:35 <zzo38> Multithreading can sometimes cause many problems if you do these kind of thing within multiple threads.
18:53:49 <wob_jonas> And a few programs rely on that behavior to close and reopen some of the low 3 file descriptions (stdin, stdout, stderr),
18:54:04 <wob_jonas> even though they could just open the new descriptor and then dup2 instad, but you can't easily fix existing programs.
18:56:22 <wob_jonas> In fact, many health care institutions specifically have signs that they *do not* guarantee to process patients in the order they arrive; and even more mundane places like banks or in-person customer service centers that have a queuing ticket machine print a warning to the ticket that customers aren't necessarily called in the order of the number o
18:57:48 <wob_jonas> The signs are there to have something to point at if someone gets upset that they're attended to later than someone who has arrived after them. In health care institutions, this is necessary because different patients can have different priority, and in other institutions, it's usually because not all employees can handle all types of requests so t
18:57:48 <wob_jonas> here are multiple intermixed queues.
18:58:11 <wob_jonas> In both cases there can also be some parallelism, but that alone isn't the reason for the signs.
18:58:38 <wob_jonas> Some health care wards also have specific signs for what specific cases let you jump to the front of the queue.
19:00:03 <wob_jonas> These can include emergencies, patients with transplants that are on immune suppressants, patients that have to return very often, and cases that are handled very quickly.
19:01:03 <wob_jonas> Some wards also have rules for which cases are when you don't have to ask for an appointment time in advance, when they usually have queues longer than a week but let a few urgent patients skip that.
19:01:14 <wob_jonas> This can apply even to non-emergency cases.
19:04:53 <wob_jonas> The strangest case is traumatology, which apparently only has two levels with nothing between: urgent care traumatology called “baleseti sebészet” (approx. accident surgery), which means that some hospital has an urgent care center taking patients any time, even at night or holidays, and you can enter without asking for an appointment any time, tho
19:04:53 <wob_jonas> ugh they have different priorities among people who arrive;
19:06:14 <wob_jonas> and non-urgent care, in a completely different department called “ortopédia”, for which you need an appointment with a waiting list of often a month, and is open only on weekday working hours.
19:07:40 <wob_jonas> Most other branches of healthcare have urgent and non-urgent outpatient care at the same department, so during the opening hour of the non-urgent care, urgent cases go to the same place as non-urgent cases, though they might be able to jump the queue.
19:08:10 <wob_jonas> Although admittedly some brances don't have urgent care at all.
19:10:01 <wob_jonas> And since in many cases, you are restricted in which hospital or ward you can use by where you live, and the restriction depends on whether it's in normal opening hours or not, in practice for most people there are departments where they have to go to entirely different hospitals or wards for urgent care.
19:12:59 <wob_jonas> The most clear example is maxillofacial surgery (orthodental surgery): at any one time outside working hours there is only one non-private hospital open for urgent maxillofacial surgical care in the entire Budapest, and this role cycles between three hospitals by a very complicated schedule; but a lot of different hospitals have a non-urgent outpat
19:13:00 <wob_jonas> ient maxillofacial surgery department open on normal working hours.
19:14:05 <wob_jonas> "normal" in a somewhat relaxed sense, the exact hours a non-urgent outpatient hospital department is open can be strange, but it's definitely only on workdays and never during the night.
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19:20:27 <wob_jonas> Also, workdays, sign. Between 1991 and approximately 2006, workdays were simple. Every day is a worday unless it's a Saturday, Sunday, falls on any of the calendar dates --01-01, --03-15, --05-01, --08-20, --10-23, --11-01, --12-25, --12-26, or the Monday after Easter or the Monday after Pentecost.
19:23:39 <wob_jonas> but since approximately 2007, they started modifying this by adding between zero and five inclusive pairs of swapped workdays per year, where a certain Saturday is a workday despite the previous rule, but in balance, a certain weekday (which is either a Monday or Friday adjacent to a normal non-workday, or is on --12-24 or --12-31) is not a workday
19:23:39 <wob_jonas> . Also, since 2017, the Friday before Easter is an additional non-working day.
19:25:56 <wob_jonas> And the bad part is that the swapped workdays are announced by the government only late in the previous calendar year. They've been doing such an announcement separately for like ten years now. Why can't they just make up their mind and write a law that defines them in every future year (until they change that law)?
19:31:17 <wob_jonas> It seems that --10-23 was added as a state holiday in 1990, so the system was unchanged from 1990 to 2009, but I'm not sure about the 2009.
19:32:29 <wob_jonas> I guess the 1990 makes sense. That's a law they wanted to make quickly.
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19:37:57 <oerjan> there's a beeping sound somewhere, but it's rare and (so far) unpredictable so i haven't found the source yet. i hope it's not the laptop.
19:38:04 <oerjan> hm now there were several.
19:39:20 <oerjan> i have a troubling hunch that it only happens when i'm typing.
19:39:49 <olsner> somehow read typing as dying there
19:40:42 <wob_jonas> If *I* started a country, then I'd make most of the non-weekend state holidays moving around according to some weighted pseudorandom procedure, in such a way that they can fall on basically any calendar day, but some are bunched up to form four adjacent non-workdays, and you can compute their dates with a simple deterministic publically documented
19:40:42 <wob_jonas> algorithm, so anyone can plan in advance for holidays for as long in the future as the government or Earth's rotation exists, whichever is shorter.
19:41:52 <wob_jonas> Then I'd still have the government declare next year's holidays in the previous year, but not their set of dates, but what each holiday is officially a memorial or celebration or grieving for, though that is only for informational purposes, not mandatory.
19:43:30 <wob_jonas> Then if we want to incorporate a holiday for some event, then like every five years while we still think that thing is relevant enoguh to have a memorial for, we name one of the holidays from the event, even though the date of the holiday was known to be a non-workday long ago, possibly before that event.
19:49:24 <oerjan> hm testing by typing nonsense with the laptop off to the side seems a bit inconclusive. i think it might be an interaction with my tinnitus.
19:52:03 <wob_jonas> oerjan: what OS and relevant software is the laptop running? can the beeping be coming from outside your house? is it single beeps, or a reuglar pattern of two or more beeps with less than a few seconds between?
19:52:58 <wob_jonas> it's not my washing machine, is it? /me goes to check
19:53:41 <wob_jonas> nope, not my washing machine, and not my oven clock
19:53:55 <wob_jonas> oerjan: could it be an alert from an irc client or other chat thingy?
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19:57:26 <oerjan> hm there it was again, that's _not_ a tinnitus sound.
19:57:56 <wob_jonas> oerjan: must be me pinging you in irc
19:57:59 <oerjan> and didn't really happen when i was typing.
19:58:25 <oerjan> i have no beeping set for irc.
19:58:58 <oerjan> it's also _not_ the kind of sound a computer would make on purpose.
19:59:30 <wob_jonas> maybe you're hearing the clicky sounds distorted by IRC
19:59:59 <oerjan> it _does_ remind me of the time some years back when the oven heat detector started nagging for new batteries. but i think that sound was different.
20:00:09 * oerjan swats wob_jonas -----###
20:00:35 <oerjan> the swatter is out of practice, and this seemed like a good opportunity.
20:00:59 <oerjan> oh i was going to write down the times.
20:02:01 <oerjan> seems to be 20 minutes since the last one. if that's regular, i should be able to prepare to triangulate.
20:02:35 <oerjan> although i'm pretty sure there were several in a row last time
20:03:06 <oerjan> i'm still quite ready to blame the neighbor or some other device if i can just get a clear direction that's _not_ towards my laptop.
20:04:04 <oerjan> the most recent one _did_ sound like it could be the kitchen
20:05:48 <wob_jonas> in the old days, I'd say remove the battery from your laptop and if you still get the sound more than 30 seconds after that, then it's not the laptop. these days laptops are so complicated and have extra batteries inside that are used for things other than keeping a wall clock running that I wouldn't swear that works.
20:07:36 <oerjan> well i haven't heard it with the laptop off yet.
20:07:51 <oerjan> and also i didn't hear it earlier today when i was using it.
20:08:51 <oerjan> also i was going to make some food ->
20:11:30 <wob_jonas> oerjan: but if you make food then you'll get noises from the kitchen that mask the beeps, or even beeps from kitchen implements
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20:13:57 <int-e> laptops are easy in that they can be removed from the flat.
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20:21:03 <oerjan> the only relevant kitchen implement is the fridge.
20:21:31 <oerjan> which is indeed noisy. anyway, i didn't hear anything around the 20 min mark.
20:24:18 <zzo38> This is the stuff about the game with stealing back the stolen pig: http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+16
20:24:27 <esowiki> [[Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57940&oldid=57934 * Oerjan * (-22) Undo revision 57934 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (Irrelevant mention in a section that is about initial implementations.)
20:26:41 * oerjan isn't patient enough for this irregular waiting.
20:26:45 <zzo38> I do not know what noise that is either, I think. Did you try the refrigerator? Mine sometimes beeps
20:27:38 <oerjan> needs more data collection.
20:28:12 <zzo38> Maybe you can write it down
20:29:43 <oerjan> now it seems to be about once a minute.
20:30:53 <zzo38> Put the data into the computer so that it can be analyzed.
20:35:43 <oerjan> annoyingly, as soon as i tried doing something different, the every-minute row stopped.
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21:31:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JonoCode9374 * uploaded "[[File:Hello World MineFriff.png]]"
21:42:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JonoCode9374 * uploaded "[[File:Fizzbuzz.png]]"
21:48:32 <doesthiswork> get a binaural microphone to triangulate the source of any unusual sounds
21:52:48 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57943 * JonoCode9374 * (+11277) Added MineFriff Esolang
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21:54:13 <wob_jonas> wow, there are now micro SD cards of 400 GB capacity
21:54:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57944&oldid=57929 * JonoCode9374 * (+16)
21:55:41 <wob_jonas> and apparently also micro SD cards of 1 MB capacity.
21:55:56 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57945&oldid=57943 * JonoCode9374 * (+91)
21:56:36 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57946&oldid=57945 * JonoCode9374 * (+17)
21:57:01 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57947&oldid=57946 * JonoCode9374 * (+25)
21:57:15 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57948&oldid=57947 * JonoCode9374 * (+0)
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23:45:58 <HackEso> bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
23:46:09 <HackEso> bfjoust:bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric. \ minpoijjikop:Minpoijjikop bfjoustioppl sdardqwcasf uyvjhyb mipjkpmo.
23:46:22 <fungot`> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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01:38:59 <shachaf> https://github.com/dpiponi/quine-central
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04:45:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57949&oldid=57922 * Salpynx * (+520)
04:46:30 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57950&oldid=57675 * Salpynx * (+28) /* External resources */ update external link
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05:15:31 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57951 * Salpynx * (+1035) working on + interests
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07:05:47 <zzo38> Is there web browser (or extensions) that you might have keyboard commands such as "skip to next <h1>", "skip to next <h2> or <h1>", etc?
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08:04:00 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57952 * Salpynx * (+5056) initial info
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09:26:29 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57953&oldid=57951 * Salpynx * (+88)
09:37:08 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57954&oldid=57450 * Salpynx * (+25) /* =Computational Class */ formatting and link to Brainbool
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10:05:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re stolen pig, ah! if it's in a role-playing game that takes place in a fictional place with magical beings, then the legal system and police force could be entirely different from what I assumed, so my comments don't necessarily apply.
10:08:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re skip to next h1 in browser, I don't know, but it might be possible to implement such a thing in greasemonkey
10:10:01 <wob_jonas> Different thing about browsers and webpages: there's a lot of bad things I can say about websites using too much client-side scripting, but there's one advantage I must mention.
10:12:17 <wob_jonas> Some webpages have client-side scripts that verify the format of data you enter to a password input box while you're still typing in the box. One of these just popped up a red warning bubble saying that the text I was typing was too short, while I was still typing it. (There's some delay so I usually don't see that message because I type faster.) T
10:12:17 <wob_jonas> hese warnings make it obvious to everyone that client-side scripts are able to read the content of password fields as you're typing, so you should check what website you enter the data before you start typing, not after you enter the data and before you submit it.
10:13:03 <wob_jonas> That message alone doesn't prove it, but a phishing website could easily send anything you type into an input box to the web server, even if you delete it from the field immediately after.
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10:35:52 <\oren\> So apparently windows update is now deleting user data
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10:57:58 <wob_jonas> ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place.
10:59:12 <wob_jonas> It's the rules of an insurance company for computing the fees of motor vehicle insurance in Hungary. I don't own a car or motorbike, so I haven't had a reason to look at that yet.
11:00:36 <wob_jonas> I don't want to tell in public what I saw there, but these are publically available on the web, so if you really want to, you can look. But don't look unless you really must. If you have to buy insurance, just fill in your details to interactive forms and find out the fee for your vehicle only. Don't say I haven't warned you.
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11:02:51 <wob_jonas> There are very few people who should know about those tables, mostly just the people who work to create such tables, and some lawyers who assist in finding malpractices of insurance companies.
11:03:16 <wob_jonas> But the laws require that they must be public information, so anyone is allowed to look at it.
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12:28:32 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57955&oldid=57953 * Salpynx * (+38)
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12:44:05 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57956 * JonoCode9374 * (+352) Created page with "Hey! I see you are reading my user page. I am the creator of [[MineFriff]], a blocky esolang for Minecraft. It was inspired by some of the most traditional esolangs, such as [..."
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13:59:55 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57957&oldid=57955 * Salpynx * (+431)
14:00:55 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57958&oldid=57957 * Salpynx * (+21) /* */
14:07:35 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57959&oldid=57958 * Salpynx * (-4) /* */
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15:21:02 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57960&oldid=57950 * Zseri * (+6) fix some indentations and double dots
15:47:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Helen * New user account
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15:51:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57961&oldid=57949 * Helen * (+143) signing up
15:52:56 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57962 * Helen * (+99) Adding a userpage for me
15:53:10 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57963&oldid=57962 * Helen * (+3)
15:54:15 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57964&oldid=57963 * Helen * (+47)
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16:37:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ennyco * New user account
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17:03:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57965&oldid=57961 * Ennyco * (+162)
17:03:48 <esowiki> [[User:Ennyco]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57966 * Ennyco * (+44) Created page with "Hello! I am currently working on a language."
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18:27:55 <oerjan> <\oren\> So apparently windows update is now deleting user data <-- wat
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18:32:44 <int-e> oerjan: Windows 10 only and not always, and MS has withdrawn the update.
18:32:59 <int-e> So I guess you're either affected now or safe.
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18:38:14 <oerjan> i haven't had any updates this month yet, so whew.
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18:42:58 <oerjan> `addquote <wob_jonas> ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place. <wob_jonas> It's the rules of an insurance company for computing the fees of motor vehicle insurance in Hungary. [...]
18:42:59 <HackEso> 1328) <wob_jonas> ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place. <wob_jonas> It's the rules of an insurance company for computing the fees of motor vehicle insurance in Hungary. [...]
18:43:27 * oerjan considered cutting it after "company"
18:49:03 <oerjan> hm first beep today. and second.
18:49:25 <oerjan> it didn't feel like it came from the PC. and again, it didn't happen earlier today.
18:49:28 <int-e> anything during the night?
18:49:43 <int-e> I guess it is night
18:50:01 <int-e> at least if you're still where you were last time I cared about your geographic location.
18:50:09 <oerjan> i did hear a beep at some point when i was _not_ using the computer.
18:50:49 <int-e> microwaves are a popular source of sound these days
18:50:50 <oerjan> also, last night it stopped after a while.
18:51:21 <int-e> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/02/microwave-weapons-us-embassy-cuba-china-new-york-times ... not serious
18:51:23 <oerjan> hm i guess it could be that. if it's from the neighbor.
18:51:51 <int-e> (they can interfere with speakers though... for a while I could hear beeps when my phone was called on mine...)
18:52:04 <int-e> and I'm using "microwaves" very loosely here
18:52:48 <int-e> I suspect GHz frequencies used by mobile phones do not actually qualify :)
18:56:06 <int-e> Hmm, apparently they do... 300 GHz (1mm) – 300 MHz (1m) is the range given on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave
18:56:23 <int-e> I didn't expect the term to cover 3 decimal orders of magnitude.
18:57:03 <oerjan> well there's 3 decimal orders between milli, micro and nano
18:57:51 <oerjan> but i haven't really seen milliwave or nanowave
18:59:02 * oerjan swats FaerieFly spreading pixie dust everywhere -----###
18:59:29 <int-e> oerjan: well, now your swatter is contaminated.
18:59:46 <oerjan> it was already pixellated anyway
19:02:24 <int-e> Oh pixelation... "The victim is around 40. You can tell by the pixelation around the nose and neck."
19:04:23 <int-e> of course now I have to find the actual quote...
19:04:43 <FaerieFly> I should probably be glad I don't know where it's from
19:05:08 <int-e> FaerieFly: hmm? It's from Thimbleweed Park.
19:05:56 <FaerieFly> I was thinking it'd be from a CSI (or equivalent) episode, and played completely straight
19:06:37 <int-e> (the game *is* a murder mystery)
19:09:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I agree about those client-side scripting; many web pages do too much stuff, but it can be helpful to verify data entered into a form before sending it (the server should still verify it too, usually). That is why I wanted the new kind of web browser it treats document scripts hostile by default if enabled at all, and all functions (of everything, including what a CSS selector means) can be overridden by the user.
19:12:30 <int-e> FaerieFly: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/pixelate.png (the text spans 3 screenshots which I combined, so that's why the background is now broken)
19:13:15 <FaerieFly> I'm a bit tempted to play this game now
19:13:19 <zzo38> There can be settings to define what document scripts are allowed to do, that can be set per set of URLs and so on, and to override functions in scripts too
19:16:13 <int-e> FaerieFly: Well I enjoyed it a lot. Expect a ton of meta jokes and references to old Lucasfilm games/Lucasart adventures. There are a couple of absurd puzzles... may need a walkthrough.
19:18:24 <int-e> And I liked the story... except maybe the ending (but it didn't spoil the story, so it was okay).
19:21:54 <int-e> oh, pronouncable... shachaf-nubb
19:29:56 <esowiki> [[What!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57967&oldid=17885 * Helen * (+7048) Changed a ton to make grammar and general structure neater. Simply some tidying up though, no real changes to the actual content. All added text was simply explaining what was already there in a prettier, more understandable way.
19:36:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57968&oldid=57944 * Helen * (+13) Added "What!?"
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19:37:48 <esowiki> [[What!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57969&oldid=57967 * Helen * (-9) Corrected possible values
19:38:52 <shachaf> oerjan: https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43201673_1958594217539045_5445432349896474624_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&oh=d4addcadb8a7a60bda8268550e4e51df&oe=5C51789C
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19:41:40 <oerjan> counterexample: the moment just after i collided and knocked out my front tooth back in high school.
19:43:42 <shachaf> The moment *after* colliding were you still riding it?
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19:46:48 <oerjan> riding and swearing, i vaguely recall.
19:47:24 <oerjan> it's possible i was actually walking...
19:47:47 <oerjan> given my condition was probably not the best for riding.
19:48:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i continued to school though, where i was promptly sent to a dentist.
19:49:07 <oerjan> thus arose my zombie tooth
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19:54:51 <esowiki> [[What!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57970&oldid=57969 * Helen * (+411) /*Conditionals*/ Added a statement saying that you can put marker operators in conditionals
20:11:13 <int-e> \newcommand{\clearqed}{\setbox0=\hbox{\popQED}\pushQED{}} % such ugliness
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20:13:09 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57971&oldid=44564 * Helen * (-2) /* Compilers */ Fixed an extra apostrophe for no reason
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20:39:49 <esowiki> [[QuinePig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57972&oldid=42634 * Salpynx * (+1) /* Various Programs in SickPig */ fix typo
20:50:52 <int-e> \newcommand{\clearqed}{\setbox0=\hbox{\qedhere}} % yay, slightly less ugly
20:50:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57973&oldid=57968 * Salpynx * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */ adding . Iota comes before mu.
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20:55:46 <oerjan> hm not the proper greek letter
20:56:28 <HackEso> [U+042E CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER YU]
20:56:45 <HackEso> [U+0399 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER IOTA]
20:56:55 <HackEso> [U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
20:57:07 <HackEso> [U+039C GREEK CAPITAL LETTER MU]
20:58:01 <int-e> arguably the page name is wrong... e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C-recursive_function
20:58:52 <oerjan> hm mediawiki actually capitalizes them to the same thing
20:59:09 <int-e> I mean, the language name is derived from \mu-recursive functions, so it should really use the Greek letter instead of the micro sign.
20:59:34 <HackEso> [U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
21:00:09 <int-e> oh wait, is it just the index entry that is wrong? that would be even funnier
21:00:57 <int-e> yes, it's just the index entry that has the micro sign. the page itself has a \mu
21:01:30 <HackEso> [U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
21:01:44 <oerjan> well that makes it easier.
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21:03:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57974&oldid=57973 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Non-alphabetic */ Use proper letter
21:04:45 <HackEso> [U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
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21:10:24 <int-e> > "μCurse" == "µCurse" -- first one is title, second one is the first word of the article...
21:10:51 <int-e> > toUpper 'μ' == toUpper 'µ'
21:11:23 <oerjan> it's a result of the {{lowercase}} template
21:11:39 <int-e> Yeah, since the page title is actually a lower case ΜCurse.
21:12:07 <int-e> I'd still argue that the language name *should* use the Greek letter, but the intent of the author is less clear than I thought :)
21:15:02 <oerjan> it seems possible to enforce MICRO SIGN with DISPLAYTITLE
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21:15:33 <HackEso> [U+004D LATIN CAPITAL LETTER M]
21:15:57 <int-e> (that's what the Haskell implementation uses)
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02:18:37 <zzo38> I speak English, sorry
02:18:59 <shachaf> I speak English and I won't apologize for it.
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03:20:36 <zzo38> In this GURPS game (I mentioned about the stolen pigs), the GM suggested we will now have to try to escape, although I had a different idea, to just go to court anyways. But now I have a third idea, which is to write a note to apologize for his children are dead (and leave it with the armourer, to return together with the wheelbarrow; hopefully that man is literate!) and go directly to the barber, which is why we came here in the first place anywa
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03:21:06 <zzo38> (Does the barber know the king told us to go to the barber? Hopefully; otherwise none of us know what is happening.)
03:22:40 <zzo38> Actually in this game we stole wheelbarrows once before, too (to recover a stolen goat). That time we were unable to return the wheelbarrows, considering it too dangerous to do so.
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04:49:58 <doesthiswork> there is a lot of livestock theft in your games?
04:50:53 <zzo38> What would you think of Magic: the Gathering card having: All creatures gain banding until end of turn. ;; No more than one band can attack this turn. ;; Cannot cast ~ during combat phase.
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05:52:53 <esowiki> [[Marker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57975 * A * (+364) Created page with ""Marker" is a very simple markdown-like programming language. ==Syntax== It uses Consolas. ===size x:=== This command is used to set the size of the text. Inside the tag, the..."
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05:59:11 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57976&oldid=57975 * A * (+293)
05:59:32 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57977&oldid=57976 * A * (+23)
06:00:27 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57978&oldid=57977 * A * (+52)
06:21:43 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57979&oldid=57978 * A * (-73) /* center */
06:24:26 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57980&oldid=57979 * A * (+46) /* Syntax */
06:29:55 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57981&oldid=57980 * A * (-110)
06:30:29 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57982&oldid=57981 * A * (-41) /* bold/italic */
06:44:22 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57983&oldid=57948 * JonoCode9374 * (+1061)
06:45:35 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57984&oldid=57982 * A * (-31)
06:46:34 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57985&oldid=57984 * A * (-62)
06:49:01 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57986&oldid=57985 * A * (-136)
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09:34:49 <wob_jonas> argh! stupid physical slot allows me to insert the SIM cards in the wrong orientation. and here I was panicking why the phone didn't recognize the SIM cards.
09:43:16 <wob_jonas> dear interface design guys. confirmation prompts are nice to protect from bad effects of accidental button presses, and android and windows metro and some modern websites should learn that. but confirmation prompts are even nicer if the prompt actually shows on the screen what you're confirming.
09:59:25 <wob_jonas> In this case, the confirmation prompt the phone gave was "Start copying?" A good confirmation prompt would have been "Start copying 191 contacts from Phone to SIM2?"
09:59:46 <wob_jonas> Except obviously it should show the correct number instead of 191.
10:01:32 <shachaf> Hmm. So with struct A { int x; };, if "a" is an lvalue, then "a.x" is an lvalue.
10:01:42 <shachaf> If "a" is an rvalue, then "a.x" is an rvalue?
10:02:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: if a is an rvalue, then a.x is either an error or an rvalue, depending on the language dialect
10:03:18 <wob_jonas> or so I think, but ask on ##C or ##C++ if you want to be sure
10:04:21 <shachaf> At least in my short test with clang.
10:04:42 <shachaf> But then what does the ". operator" do?
10:06:16 <shachaf> This must be the thing that I was attributing to calling conventions or whatever.
10:07:05 <shachaf> When you pass a struct by value, as in f(A a) { ... }
10:10:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: rvalues are used when the language typechecker at compile time thinks that the hidden lvalue backing it is a temporary, and so modifying it would be likely an error, because you can rarely observe the effects of the modifications
10:10:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: which is why some methods and assignment and field assignment are banned on rvalues
10:11:19 <wob_jonas> but the runtime semantics is generally (with some exceptions) as if the rvalue has a backing lvalue, and you can access that lvalue in sneaky ways if you really want, at least in C++
10:11:49 <wob_jonas> it's just usually a bad idea, because the temporary will go away, so you can have a dangling reference to it, or modifications that don't do anything
10:12:55 <wob_jonas> technically there's only an object (usually a temporary) backing the rvalue, but there's a way to create an lvalue for it
10:13:03 <wob_jonas> so "backing lvalue" isn't really precise
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10:29:54 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I think a value and a memory location are completely different things.
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23:29:19 <doesthiswork> my pet soldier fly maggots escaped and are crawling over the kitchen floor looking for hiding spots to pupate in
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01:08:37 <zzo38> I read now Microsoft open-sourced MS-DOS version 1 and 2. What I would like to see is open-sourced ROM BASIC and PC BIOS code. (While PC BIOS code is available, I have not seen an official open-source licensing of it.)
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04:52:44 <zzo38> A variant of the "Immobilizer" piece from Ultima is the "Vestal Virgin" from Emperor Wars. The movement is the same, but it only prevents capturing moves, and does not prevent non-capturing moves.
04:59:47 <zzo38> Is there implementation of Haskell in JavaScript that does not have its own I/O and can combine with your own JavaScript codes for I/O and other functions?
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06:05:45 <oerjan> doesthiswork: sounds like you'll soon have a fly army then.
06:08:04 <oerjan> "Black soldier fly larvae (BSFL) are an excellent source of sustainable protein for aquaculture, animal feed, and pet and human nutrition.[citation needed]"
06:09:14 <oerjan> . o O ( wait is he raising them _as_ pets or _for_ his pets? )
06:09:50 <oerjan> i don't think it's usually considered good to feed your pets to each other
06:10:46 <oerjan> i'm going to go out on a limb and assume he's not eating them himself.
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06:18:48 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it would be unusual to do both
06:33:01 <doesthiswork> I'm raising them to eat food waste, which they do a wonderful job of
06:36:25 <zzo38> I suppose that is better than wasting it.
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06:47:23 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57987&oldid=57959 * Salpynx * (+95) /* Working on */
06:56:06 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57988&oldid=46778 * Salpynx * (+140) add link to my wip compiler that compiles hello-world example
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09:47:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it's not open source, but I have ROM BIOS listing for IBM PC XT or something similar, and I think it's on the internet too
09:49:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think it's actually the original PC before the XT. the manual contained assembly listings for the ROM BIOS and (hard disk ROM BIOS extension), including the keyboard handling code, plus lots of other useful docs like schematics and BIOS API docs
09:49:44 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but not any BASIC. if you can't find it on the internet, ping me and I'll try to look it up, or, failing that, get my printed book and scan the parts you're interested in
09:50:34 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: but don't flies leave a lot of mess after themselves, including human disease sources?
09:51:04 <wob_jonas> unlike ants, which are clean, but can be a bad idea to raise in the house because they can make holes in the plastering of walls or worse
10:02:45 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57989&oldid=57987 * Salpynx * (+107) /* Interested in */
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14:44:53 <wob_jonas> @tell doesthiswork but don't flies leave a lot of mess after themselves, including human disease sources? unlike ants, which are clean, but can be a bad idea to raise in the house because they can make holes in the plastering of walls or worse.
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16:29:35 <wob_jonas> When the 7-zip UI is testing an archive, the dialog has a "Cancel" button to cancel the test, since it can take a long time for a large archive. When I click on that button, I get a dialog asking "Are you sure you want to cancel?" and three buttons: Yes, No, Cancel.
16:47:42 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57990&oldid=57622 * Blacksilver * (+216) Examples
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17:33:21 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57991&oldid=57990 * Blacksilver * (+321) /* Computational Class */
17:35:51 <zzo38> I don't know; I don't use the 7-Zip GUI
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18:34:17 <wob_jonas> Yes, finally! Laundry buffer underflow! As in, I could wash laundry now because the washing machine and the clothes rack is free and I have the time to start one, but there's not enough dirty clothes to be worth.
18:35:02 <wob_jonas> Unless I replace the bed linen or wash the curtains, but I'm too lazy to do either. (Washing the curtains is easy, it's putting them up again that's the hard part, and you have to do that immediately after the washing machine is done.
18:39:49 <HackEso> olist 1143: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:58:34 <zzo38> I have a book with the PC BIOS code in it (for the original IBM PC, I think).
19:00:57 <wob_jonas> zzo38: so you're only missing the casette BASIC BIOS?
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19:01:19 <wob_jonas> I know it's obvious, but have you searched the internet for it?
19:01:51 <wob_jonas> The casette BASIC faded into obscurity because of MS-DOS and MS's BASIC implementation GW-BASIC.
19:02:01 <wob_jonas> (Which runs on DOS and is really small.)
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19:06:34 <wob_jonas> Also every PC came with an 1.2" floppy drive for a long time AFAIK, and casettes are just really unreliable compared to cheap floppies, so the whole idea of a BASIC that stores its data on a casette instead of a floppy on a PC seems absurd to me, while it made sense back in the older personal computers like the C-64.
19:07:12 <wob_jonas> I don't understand why the PC BASIC worked with a casette in first place rather than a floppy, whether it's over PC-DOS or separate and with a possibly different floppy format.
19:07:48 <wob_jonas> I can understand that they made a casette controller for the PC, so people can potentially read and write casettes and communicate with other machines that way.
19:08:02 <wob_jonas> But the PC also had a floppy drive.
19:09:49 <zzo38> I think the book I have says it supports four floppy drives, although only two can physically fit inside the computer.
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19:11:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, the BIOS routines support four floppy drives, even on later PCs, but since DOS only supports two floppy drives without extra software, and people generally got hard disks by the time 1.4" floppy drives appeared, I'd guess very few people had a PC with more than two floppies.
19:13:31 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, um... what are the floppy sizes again?
19:14:00 <int-e> well, 180k, 360k, 720k, 1.2MB
19:14:06 <wob_jonas> 5+1/4 inch with formatted capacity 1.2MB, and 3+1/2 inch with DOS formatted capacity 1.44 MB but total capacity 2MB
19:14:32 <int-e> and 3 1/2", 1.44MB, not sure about smaller sizes.
19:15:57 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's why the one that's half the size of the 1.44 MB floppy is called "double-sided-double density" or something like that, but I've only seen the floppy formats other than the two largest for the 3+1/2" drive and the biggest double-sided and single-sided for the 5+1/4" drive only in theory, never a real floppy.
19:16:18 <int-e> IIRC 5 1/4" came in single density (40 tracks), double density (80 tracks), high density (15 sectors instead of 9 per track), and one- and two-sided.
19:17:02 <wob_jonas> every software has options to support them, since they're kind of trivial once you support the biggest floppy format, Linux even has specific devices with major and minor ID numbers and names in /dev that force the format in case the auto-detection fails, not that it ever fails
19:17:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't want to look the details up now. I know I've seen at least one real 3+1/2" floppy with half the normal capacity
19:18:22 <wob_jonas> and I've also seen like two software for formatting ordinary 3+1/2" floppies in ways different from DOS to get a higher formatted capacity
19:18:41 <wob_jonas> but still make them accessible by DOS software that is
19:18:50 <int-e> anyway, the thing with cassettes is that it's very cheap to support in hardware... you hardly even need an A/D converter; some automatic level adjustment should suffice, followed by an operational amplifier. Almost everybody had a cassette recorder at the time.
19:18:58 <zzo38> I have had the auto-detection of floppy disks fail. The same disk works on an actual DOS computer though. (I am using an external device to use the floppy disk, since the computer doesn't have one built-in)
19:19:01 <wob_jonas> it's easy without that part, replacing all the DOS routines is the hard part
19:19:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the auto-detection failed but you could read the floppy if you specified the format? what format of floppy was it?
19:19:41 <wob_jonas> and that's on modern hardware? wow
19:20:01 <wob_jonas> I've seen floppies fail, but not in that way
19:21:48 <wob_jonas> And I have used floppies with Linux, but not much.
19:21:57 <zzo38> An ordinary 3.5" HD floppy disk in DOS format.
19:24:09 <zzo38> Also once I used a floppy disk with a ZIP archive, that neither 7-Zip nor Info-Zip could read, although someone suggested I try bsdtar, and it was able to read it. (Only part of the file was readable, and there was a disk error after that. I later reformatted the disk and copied the file again and this time it did work with 7-Zip.)
19:25:33 <wob_jonas> wait, if there was a disk error, then why did you reformat the disk? don't those usually come from permanent physical errors so you should generally throw away such a floppy and use a new one, after reading the data, since they're so cheap?
19:26:08 <zzo38> I don't know, but reformatting the disk and rewriting the file fixed it. (I think DOS marks which sectors are bad so that it doesn't use those ones)
19:27:07 <wob_jonas> yes, DOS marks those in the FAT, in fact I think not only DOS but also that Linux tool for physical scanning of DOS floppies can do that
19:27:55 <wob_jonas> the bad sectors are marked in the FAT table itself, and FORMAT normally searches for them at format time unless you give the /Q option for quick format, plus DOS SCANDISK can search for such
19:28:06 <wob_jonas> and the same mechanism was used on old hard disks too
19:28:09 <zzo38> (I also tried copying the same file onto two disks in case one didn't work. Also, auto-detection didn't fail for the second disk, although once I specified the format both disks were readable in Linux.)
19:28:32 <wob_jonas> but after a while hard disks started to have ten layers of abstraction and handled physical errors on their on-board controller
19:28:38 <wob_jonas> so eventually that part got useless
19:29:02 <wob_jonas> I've even scanned DOS RAM disks, which emulate a hard disk, for bad sectors, which is obviously ridiculous
19:29:09 <wob_jonas> but the abstraction doesn't know that
19:31:12 <wob_jonas> bad sector marks of FAT could be useful for putting something on a FAT disk that nothing else reading the FS will touch, although there are lots of other ways to do that
19:33:05 <wob_jonas> such as putting unusual but mostly supported file system parameters to sector 1 of the fs, or just putting it in a file marked with the S attribute so that defrag software doesn't move it
19:33:45 <wob_jonas> but usually on a hard disk you just use a partition table, so you need that only on floppies
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02:05:30 <zzo38> Now I wrote a "SQL Report Generator" program.
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12:30:36 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57992&oldid=57989 * Salpynx * (-10) /* */ fix unicode
12:31:37 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57993&oldid=57992 * Salpynx * (+21) /* */
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00:28:47 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Do you have a good language for me that doesn't have C-style lvalues but something more explicit?
00:28:56 <shachaf> I've finally understood what lvalues and rvalues are, I think.
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00:50:03 <Sgeo_> I'm not totally sure I understand the question, to be honest. Do you mean any statements of the form x = y where x isn't a value of an explicit type designed for that statement would be not allowed?
00:51:08 <shachaf> In ALGOL 68, for example, the thing on the left side of = is a pointer.
00:53:42 <Sgeo_> Picolisp? Assignment forms are set and setq, set takes a symbol like 'foo, setq is a bit more magic and quotes the symbol for you
00:54:16 <shachaf> I'd like something that distinguishes between memory locations and values.
00:54:27 <shachaf> Or, y'know, mutable cells that hold values and values.
00:54:54 <Sgeo_> Haskell? Erlang/Elixir?
00:55:04 <shachaf> OK, but something on the level of C.
00:56:32 <shachaf> When you write "int x; ...; x = x + 1;", the x on the left of the = refers to a memory location, but the x on the right refers to the value in that memory location.
00:58:08 <Sgeo_> The string "x" or x or {x} is a mutable location, $x is a value in that location
00:58:42 <shachaf> "x" isn't exactly a memory location (because of scoping?), but I suppose that's closer.
00:59:01 <Sgeo_> http://tpcg.io/EXzEuZ
00:59:57 <shachaf> I guess this is true in sh, actually.
01:00:04 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I don't remember enough Rebol off the top of my head
01:00:21 <Sgeo_> I've considered Rebol to be a better Tcl with a better ability to fake lexical scope, but I don't remember much else
01:00:23 <shachaf> You write x=5 to set and $x to get.
01:01:29 <Sgeo_> x: is a word similar to but not the same as x
01:01:47 <shachaf> ALGOL 68 has automatic coercion from "ref t" to "t"
01:18:45 <fizzie> You could kind of say Forth's @ and ! words are explicit like that. Or VALUE/TO. (For a word FOO defined with VALUE, "FOO" fetches from value to stack, and "TO VALUE" stores from stack to value.)
01:21:00 <shachaf> Isn't it odd that "a.x" has two different meanings, depending on whether "a" is an lvalue or an rvalue?
01:25:12 <shachaf> I agree, Forth is like that. But Forth doesn't use variables the way most languages do.
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18:57:31 <fizzie> I told it to restart, and here it is again.
18:57:50 <fizzie> And the logs seem to be back up. I'll close this as fixed.
18:58:01 <fizzie> (...I mean, I would, if we had a tracker...)
18:58:38 <shachaf> we track bugs in the logs hth
19:07:39 <int-e> `learn Esowiki is our resident issue tracker.
19:07:41 <HackEso> Learned 'esowiki': Esowiki is our resident issue tracker.
19:08:05 <shachaf> i,i our residents have a lot of issues
19:08:14 <int-e> (This is a mere summary of discussion above, not necessarily funny.)
19:09:56 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:10:19 <HackEso> 11622:2018-10-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is wearing shorts despite the weather \ 11619:2018-09-05 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is ripe for picking \ 11587:2018-08-03 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is alphanumer1c. \ 11584:2018-07-20 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month will be short-lived. \ 11570:2018-06-03 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-
19:10:49 <shachaf> oerjan: It was 29°C here the other day.
19:11:10 <int-e> oerjan is not here... was that for the logs?
19:12:20 <shachaf> I assume that if I say "oerjan" things will make their way to him one way or another eventually.
19:12:25 <shachaf> I don't worry about the exact mechanism.
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20:07:58 <wob_jonas> I was here for the M:tG conversation, but I don't know if you replied after that part, because the logs were down
20:09:43 <ais523> you left shortly before I did
20:09:44 <wob_jonas> I was talking about some stupid basic arithmetic and calculus stuff afterwards
20:10:11 <ais523> but I pretty much just ignored the conversation because it was offtopic; I tolerate offtopic conversation here but normally don't pay much attention to it unless it's on a topic I'm interested in
20:10:21 <wob_jonas> and how the old NIST maths handbook is in some respects betteer than the new one
20:10:34 <wob_jonas> oh, elementary maths is off-topic, but category theory is on topic?
20:10:48 <wob_jonas> or all of them are on topic, we just allow a lot of off-topic stuff for community
20:12:14 <ais523> category theory is typically only on topic in as much as it related to Haskell (which would be an esolang if people weren't trying to use it seriously)
20:12:37 <ais523> if you need to know category theory to understand the language you're writing in, that sounds like an esolang to me :-D
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20:18:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. I could write some basic haskell programs without using category theory, but since I'm a mathematician, I can understand others wanting to understand category theory for these sorts of things, whether eso or non-eso
20:18:54 <wob_jonas> I sometimes think of other crazy mathematics for programming simple stuff too, it's only natural.
20:19:04 <ais523> well, computer scientists use category theory to understand programming languages
20:19:21 <ais523> there's some category theory in my thesis, for example
20:19:33 <ais523> (that said, it's a bit out of place because my thesis ended up mostly being a study of syntax rather than semantics)
20:19:39 <wob_jonas> And I don't mean the simple stuff like using an elementary integral to compute the area of a circular sector, but really overpowered stuff I don't need for the problem, only for me it's usually not category theory.
20:20:22 <wob_jonas> Not that I haven't used category theory, I admit I have used it at least once, but only the very basics, like composing some morphisms and inverting them and some direct product, you can trivially rephrase the same proof without category theory.
20:21:08 <ais523> combinatorics seems to be the other field of maths that comes up in programming a lot
20:21:10 <wob_jonas> It ended up in an article I co-authored.
20:21:26 <ais523> at least, if you're programming for the sake of programming rather than to actually accomplish some result
20:21:37 <ais523> also, people normally prefer the category-theory proofs because they generalise to other fields
20:21:56 <ais523> the whole initial point of category theory was to allow theorems to apply to multiple fields of maths at the same time
20:22:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, but so does some of this numeric stuff, including multi-dimensonal vector arithmetic, whether exact or asymptotics, simple statistics, and numeric analysis to understand which floating-point calculations are numerically stable and what approximations are good.
20:23:44 <wob_jonas> I actually started to think of this area of circular sector and volume of spherical cap thing because it was needed for an approximation in a program by a co-worker, not that I need to understand the integration myself for that, you can just re-use formulas other people have computed, but still.
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23:44:48 <wob_jonas> Mind you, using the letter "d" in two conflicting ways in that formula is really unfortunate
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12:50:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57994&oldid=57935 * A * (+0) "improved" my compiler
12:51:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57995&oldid=57994 * A * (+0) Forgot to change code size
12:55:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57996&oldid=57995 * A * (+23) Golfed my compiler(add explanation)
12:56:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57997&oldid=57996 * A * (+0) I forgot again.
13:00:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57998&oldid=57997 * A * (+0) Now my implementation is in my "USB".
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13:03:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57999&oldid=57998 * A * (+87)
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13:56:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> I don't worry about the exact mechanism. <-- MAYBE YOU SHOULD. also it's warmer here today.
13:56:11 <lambdabot> ENVA 111350Z 14006KT 090V190 CAVOK 19/06 Q1016 TEMPO 17015KT RMK WIND 670FT 15012KT
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14:01:22 <int-e> oerjan: I'm sure there is a perfectly log-ical explanation behind that mechanism.
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15:10:30 <wob_jonas> The mechanism may just be that oerjan comes in here very often, regardless whether he's summoned or not.
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15:16:22 <wob_jonas> nice, you're coming in earlier now. I'll no longer have the problem of staying up late at night because of an IRC conversation then :-)
15:16:35 <wob_jonas> (well, I will, but because of people other than you)
15:17:05 <ais523_> I won't be here long, this username has a specific purpose and it's become more specific/predictable over time
15:17:39 <wob_jonas> So the underscore has a meaning, just not related to this channel?
15:18:00 <ais523_> oh, I thought it was common knowledge
15:18:09 <ais523_> the more underscores, the less control I have over my connection setup
15:18:34 <ais523_> one underscore typically means that I'm using a hotdesked or public-access computer (and is correlated with accessing over the web interface)
15:18:43 <ais523_> but that the setup is, apart from that, relatively sane
15:18:47 <wob_jonas> I didn't know about you in particular. I do know that some irc users use a different username depending on whether they join from home, work, or mobile or whatever.
15:18:59 <wob_jonas> At one point I used b_jonas from work and wob_jonas from home.
15:19:21 <ais523_> it used to have a range of causes, but by far the most common nowadays is that I'm at work and waiting for something to happen (typically a meeting) and have come onto IRC in the meantime
15:19:43 <wob_jonas> But some IRC clients append the underscore automatically when the original nickname is used, and that's how I used b_jonas_ for a while too, so I learned to just ignore underscore suffixes.
15:19:47 <ais523_> I think I ended up joining as ais523___ once
15:19:55 <ais523_> right, I'm still ais523, after all
15:20:11 <ais523_> you can see ais523_ on IRC as the equivalent of ais523 non-admin on the wiki
15:21:36 <wob_jonas> I guess wob_jonas could be seen as that in relation to b_jonas... sort of
15:22:13 <ais523_> you nearly always have the wo nowadays
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15:23:10 <ais523_> hmm, this is the situation in which I normally post WIP esolangs on the wiki
15:23:14 <ais523_> but I'm not convinced half an hur is enough
15:23:32 <ais523_> so I guess I'll post on IRC instead
15:23:40 <ais523_> there's an analog tarpit I've been working on
15:24:27 <ais523_> there's only one declaration, of the form "a = indefinite integeral (b + c + d + … + y) dz, initial value V"
15:24:31 <ais523_> (of course that isn't the actual syntax)
15:24:56 <ais523_> also, one input is a clock and just increases continuously over time (otherwise there's no motive force to start the whole system going)
15:25:04 <ais523_> I believe this is Turing-complete
15:27:36 <ais523_> and it's about as simple as you can get with "continuous data, discrete code"
15:28:27 <wob_jonas> um, what kind of expressions can b, c, ..., y be?
15:28:46 <ais523_> they refer to other lines of the program
15:28:57 <ais523_> like, b will have a definition of the same form, etc.
15:29:26 <ais523_> so the whole thing's just one big circular definition (although you have base cases when the sum is empty, meaning that you're taking the integral of 0, i.e. a constant)
15:29:35 <wob_jonas> also, this one is funny, I looked more into the $ int_{-1}^{m} sqrt{1 - z^2} dz $ integral that I was talking about yesterday, and I'm more confused than ever about how it works
15:30:04 <ais523_> you can define a constant as "k = integral() dk" and use the initial value to specify the value of the constant
15:30:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, so in the integral, you just have an unweighted sum of other terms?
15:30:37 <ais523_> then you can start defining functions like sin (using simple harmonic motion and the thing you're taking the sin of as the x in dx)
15:30:51 <wob_jonas> wouldn't you need a minus sign to define sin?
15:31:05 <ais523_> because you can define constants, you can define multiplication by a constant easily enough (kx = integral k dx)
15:31:24 <ais523_> so the unweighted sums can be made into weighted sums easily enough (it's a tarpit, so why add weighted sums if you don't need them)
15:31:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: only positive integer constants
15:31:35 <ais523_> no, the initial value is an arbitrary real
15:31:54 <ais523_> so you can generate a constant integrator by integrating 0 and sticking the constant in the initial value
15:32:11 <ais523_> integral 0 = C, after all (just like integral 1 = x+C)
15:32:33 <ais523_> so you don't have any restriction to positive integer weights
15:32:34 <wob_jonas> in particular, about that integral of mine, (A) on one hand, http://people.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/aands/page_13.htm formula 3.3.31 is confusing, because it uses $ d $ in two different meanings, but if I read it right, it normally has an arctan term, but in this simple case that one is cancelled out,
15:33:31 <wob_jonas> (B) ##math suggested me to evaluate the integral symbolically by a trigonometric substitution, like $ m = \sin \phi $ where $ \phi $ is a parameter between $ -\pi/2 $ and $ \pi/2 $
15:33:46 <wob_jonas> which seems to work and leads to both an arctan term and a linear term, and
15:34:15 <wob_jonas> sorry, arcsin term (not that it's a big difference here)
15:34:51 <ais523_> now, once you have constant and multiply-by-constant and sin, you can create an integral of the form y=integral(…+sin y) dx, then that effectively "quantizes" y (to one set of points while x is increasing, to a different set of points while x is decreasing)
15:34:58 <ais523_> that introduces digital behaviour that lets you create a counter
15:35:30 <ais523_> from there it's just a case of creating a state machine that can read the counters somehow, that's the bit I'm hazy on how it works, there are so many promising approaches though that it seem almost impossible that you can't do it
15:35:32 <wob_jonas> (C) you can take the geometric interpretation of a circular section of height $ m - 1 $ of the unit circle, and compute its area as the difference of the areas of a circular sector and a triangle, which would explain how you get an arcsin term from the sector and a term with square root from the triangle.
15:35:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, the initial values are given by the program? ok
15:36:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: but if it's "an arbitrary real" then why does it not get more powerful than Turing-complete?
15:36:59 <wob_jonas> possibly even in constant bound on the time variable
15:37:12 <ais523_> even starting with rationals I'm not certain it's computable
15:37:22 <ais523_> so I should really be saying "Turing-hard", not "Turing-complete"
15:37:34 <wob_jonas> although there might be something tricky that constrains this particular form of equation
15:37:44 <wob_jonas> I'm not any good at ODEs, so I can't tell
15:37:56 <ais523_> I'm wondering if it's computable due to the existence of numerical methods for integration
15:38:11 <ais523_> or if they necessarily hit singular cases which place a limit on how many decimal places you can compute
15:38:12 <wob_jonas> these are of a quite restricted form, they might not be as bad as some other ODEs
15:39:10 <wob_jonas> yeah... interesting, though I don't think I'll want to figure out anything about this particular one
15:41:12 <ais523_> anyway, the reason I like this language is that integrators and adders are two of the most fundamental components in analog computers
15:41:39 <ais523_> so most real-life mechanical analog computers should be able to implement it (although they'd likely run out of memory or accuracy very quickly if you tried to run a TC construction on them)
15:41:57 <ais523_> digital analog computers have the problem that digital integrators integrate d(time), not d(an arbitrary input)
15:42:09 <ais523_> which seems like it'd considerably reduce the power of the language (maybe not though?)
15:42:37 <ais523_> err, I mean electronic analog computers, not digital analog computers (which would be an oxymoron)
15:42:52 <ais523_> I'm so used to "electronic computer = digital computer" that it's easy to forget that electronic analog computers exist
15:42:53 <wob_jonas> wait, the z is an arbitrary variable that differs in each equation too?
15:43:16 <ais523_> (mechanical digital computers also exist, but are even rarer than mechanical analog computers)
15:43:29 <ais523_> wob_jonas: right, that's how I bootstrap up the computational power
15:43:42 <ais523_> it allows for things like "multiply by constant" (integrate the constant by the thing you're multiplying by)
15:45:02 <wob_jonas> "mechanical digital computers ... are even rarer" => that might depend on how you define a computer. would a calculator that can do multiplications or even divisions when you put an external (possibly non-mechanical) engine at its crank be a calculator? or do you only count complicated ones like ballistic computers and the Antikythera mechanism, mo
15:45:50 <wob_jonas> that's definitely very powerful then
15:46:03 <wob_jonas> more so than I imagined, at least in simple programs
15:46:16 <wob_jonas> I don't know how far the power goes
15:46:41 <wob_jonas> and in that case I'm not sure how this is even well-defined, like when the z changes sign
15:47:01 <ais523_> if you count a mechanical calculator as a computer, I can see a decent (although perhaps ill-fated) argument for counting slide rules too
15:47:25 <ais523_> althought the mechanical calculator has more scope for modifying it to add control structures than the slide rule does
15:48:08 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if a slide rule alone can count as a _mechanical_ calculator
15:48:25 <wob_jonas> it generally only calculates well when a human is doing something nontrivial with it
15:49:06 <wob_jonas> sure, it can compute sines and arcsines, which many digital calculators can't, but that's just because it has a precomputed table built in
15:49:19 <wob_jonas> a precomputed table hardly makes it a powerful computer
15:49:36 <ais523_> well, the basic principle is "find the appropriate two dials for the operation you want to calculate: line the appropriate identity up against one of the inputs, then the answer is lined up with the other"
15:49:55 <ais523_> I'm not sure I'd describe slide rule tables as precomputed when they contain infinitely many entries, though
15:49:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, a printed sine table is more accurate and easier to use (but slower if you don't need that accuracy) than a slide rule for sines and arcsines
15:50:43 <ais523_> you can easily imagine a sine-taking device which looks like a micrometer; you dial the screw wheel to the distance from the origin that represents the value you want to take the sine of, then its angle represents the value of that sine
15:50:59 <wob_jonas> infinitely many entries? what slide rule do you have?
15:51:14 <ais523_> this is different from a precomputed table in the sense that it can handle all the intermediate values between wherever your markers are
15:51:42 <ais523_> I don't actually own a slide rule (apart from one I made myself out of cardboard, which wasn't very accurate and is probably long-since lost)
15:52:05 <wob_jonas> I don't own one either, but I have played with one my father owns
15:52:16 <wob_jonas> and I even played with one or two digital mechanical calculators
15:53:27 <wob_jonas> plus I have a photo of an old ornamental digital calculator https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-khm-kunstkammer-calculator.jpg
15:53:32 <wob_jonas> obviously I didn't play with that one
15:54:07 <wob_jonas> though mind you, the homepage of the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien has decent quality videos of some other mechanical automata they have in their collection restored and running
15:54:31 <wob_jonas> they can be both quite spectacular and creepy, and also esoteric in the esolang sense
15:55:49 <wob_jonas> http://www.khm.at/en/visit/collections/kunstkammer-wien/video-channel/
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17:24:43 <oklopol> just came to tell oerjan that i have to read his master's thesis :D
17:25:05 <oklopol> those pesky dimension groups...
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17:32:57 <oklopol> wow oerjan's full groups have continuous cocycles, things used to be so different
17:33:02 <oklopol> (this would be a lot more fun if he was here)
17:38:07 <oklopol> hmm https://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck lacks the "languages" and "brainfuck derivative" tags
17:54:22 <int-e> > map (length . filter (== 'o')) ["oklopol", "Phantom_Hoover"]
17:54:24 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\SI'
17:54:48 <int-e> > map (length . filter (== 'o')) ["o"++"klopol", "P"++"hantom_Hoover"]
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18:02:31 <int-e> oklopol: the error is caused by the '' character which is usually invisible... but apparently Haskell doesn't like it, not even in strings..
18:03:00 <int-e> > chr (64 + ord '\SI')
18:03:36 <int-e> a zero-width space would probably have done the trick.
18:05:55 <oob_jonas> We also have a nick with three 'a', a nick with three 'e', and a nick with three 'i'
18:07:23 <oob_jonas> int-e: you can use \& inside haskell strings, like "ok\&lopol"
18:08:05 <int-e> . o O ( /nick overnationalization )
18:08:28 <oob_jonas> int-e: also \\ like "ok\\lopol" I think
18:09:28 <oob_jonas> Haskell string literals have a rather stupid syntax, but then, I've seen worse syntax than that
18:09:59 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '&'
18:10:17 <int-e> (I did not expect this to work... but it would've been fun)
18:24:16 <oob_jonas> int-e: put it all together, with all the names!
18:26:35 <int-e> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
18:30:09 <shachaf> oerjan: OK, how should I worry about the exact mechanism?
18:32:14 <int-e> shachaf: schedule one hour for it every day, that should do the problem justice.
18:33:01 <shachaf> I have too many things to worry about to dedicate a whole hour for this one.
18:33:41 <int-e> Wel, clearly you're underestimating the issue at hand.
18:34:36 <int-e> Just think about it, oerjan may be plucking your thoughts directly from your brain.
18:35:04 <shachaf> If that's true, I'd rather *not* think about it.
18:35:10 <shachaf> One less thing for oerjan to pluck.
18:35:11 <int-e> Or perhaps you're just imagining that oerjan is replying to your comments. What is real, what is imagination?
18:35:18 <int-e> So much to worry about.
18:36:04 <shachaf> Maybe I'll worry about how I'm not worrying about all these things that I should be worrying about.
18:36:41 <HackEso> ingesorgeco:Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
18:37:19 <HackEso> 4628:2014-05-06 <oerjän> learn Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
18:38:51 <int-e> cute, but only *with* context.
18:39:35 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-05-05.html#lBl ff.
18:41:19 <HackEso> מכנסוcoin מנאסcoin וידפcoin התנשקוףcoin פרוצייcoin דנפלcoin גםcoin אנגלדופיוcoin אוריcoin ומקcoin וקנוcoin ואוביcoin המתוcoin נשמעאלוcoin ויסcoin והאילוcoin קפגcoin ומצוcoin בסגדcoin שזממתcoin
18:41:32 <int-e> also I was blissfully unaware that `coins uses colors.
18:41:56 <shachaf> You're missing out on a whole rainbow of fun.
18:42:48 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/tgit.html <-- I have my own rainbow
18:45:00 <int-e> (horrible CSS animation trickery, but last time I checked it worked in Firefox, Chromium, and Safari)
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19:20:08 <Taneb> int-e: Thank God It's Thursday?
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20:35:19 <int-e> Taneb: Yes. It works for Tuesdays as well.
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07:38:45 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58000&oldid=57132 * TeslaX93 * (+27)
07:39:04 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58001&oldid=58000 * TeslaX93 * (+1) /* RTFM (F^3) */
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14:03:25 <HackEso> 388) <oklopol> you know that thing in the movies where they put a pillow on someone's face and try to suffocate them <oklopol> that doesn't work. <oklopol> we tried that with my ex once, but we just couldn't kill each other that way
14:16:01 <wob_jonas> int-e: `coins uses colors only since 2014-05-04
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19:53:07 <zzo38> Do you like to make up chess varant? Can you make up any chess variant based on some esolangs somewhat too?
19:53:18 <lambdabot> ais523 said 2d 8h 8m 10s ago: <zzo38> What would you think of Magic: the Gathering card having: All creatures gain banding until end of turn. ;; No more than one band can attack this turn. ;; Cannot
19:53:18 <lambdabot> cast ~ during combat phase. ← that card would be very similar to "Fog except you have to sacrifice a creature", and as Fog only costs one mana, it probably isn't playable
20:22:16 <zzo38> Still, other stuff could be added, such as cycling {2}, if it isn't good enough as it is.
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23:46:26 <zzo38> How to calculate distance between geographic coordinates?
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00:02:20 <ais523> zzo38: the only coordinate system I know that makes that sort of calculation easy is quaternions, but I don't know how it works
00:07:10 <zzo38> I mean using the common longitude/latitude system. (I should think that only the difference of longitude is needed, as well as the two latitudes, as the inputs.)
00:09:36 <shachaf> copumpkin[m]: I always confuse "Dan P" with the other Dan P.
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01:40:39 <zzo38> One kind of chess variant is that there is no castling, but once per game (whether or not you are in check, and whether or not the king already moved) you can teleport your king to any vacant cell.
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05:24:41 <zzo38> Maybe the next sequel game will be that you have to defeat Giants Who Hate Liberty Bell March.
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05:54:11 <zzo38> Do you like this game?
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07:23:00 <zzo38> If the people who write the dictionary make up words that are not real words, start to use them a lot and then they are real words. If a map includes trap streets, then build those streets.
07:55:34 <zzo38> I remember once I tried to make up a "make-worded dictionary" some time long ago
07:57:48 <zzo38> (with words that don't use any kind of alphabets)
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09:48:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re geographic distance, I must disagree with ais523, I don't think quaternions help in that problem at all. do you want on a perfect sphere, or a more realistic elliptic Earth model? in either case, this is probably a question you can just find good answers for on the web.
09:52:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: as for trap streets, do you happen to know what the consequences of those are? If I release a database with database right trap data similar to trap streets, should I disclose that it has trap data (obviously without telling what the trap data is) or not?
09:52:49 <wob_jonas> I'm thinking more of bus timetables in this case than a map, and the trap data would be adding -1 minutes to a very few timetable entries.
09:53:05 <wob_jonas> oh, also, with the new illustrator,
09:53:15 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2682361/feeding-mind-and-body/
09:53:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
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12:31:32 <wob_jonas> https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2018/10/07/lebesgue-universal-covering-problem-part-3/ Lebesgue Universal Covering Problem (Part 3) (on finding a smallest area shape that covers any subset of the plane of diameter at most 1, after reflections)
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12:38:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh by the way. Google Plus is going to be taken down from the internet in a few months. If there are any websites on there that you think are worth to save, download them ASAP.
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13:37:25 <wob_jonas> ooh! https://nanogenmo.github.io/ "National Novel Generation Month. Spend the month of November writing code that generates a novel of 50k+ words. This is in the spirit of National Novel Writing Month's interesting definition of a novel as 50,000 words of fiction."
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22:14:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you probably already know this, but https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_doc is a really nicely done online interactive solar system ephemeris generator with a nice database backing it
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22:41:15 <zzo38> Yes, I think I saw that before
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02:32:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xxhaxorxx * New user account
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02:41:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58002&oldid=57965 * Xxhaxorxx * (+227) Introduction by xxhaxorxx
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03:06:56 <HackEso> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
03:07:12 <HackEso> 1/2:`hoag//`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision numbers and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first. \ magic//The magic was in you all along. \ cupboar//A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. Do not aggravate them, especially if you have fine china. \ promise problem//A promise problem is one that happens because you promis
03:07:16 <HackEso> 2/2:e too much. Their reduction to NP is p. difficult. \ not found//not found? ¯\(°_o)/¯
03:07:34 <HackEso> NP is the complexity class of decision problems that are No Problem.
03:07:40 <HackEso> P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
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03:14:22 <esowiki> [[Babylang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58003 * Xxhaxorxx * (+7081) Added Babylang page
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03:18:06 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58004&oldid=57828 * Xxhaxorxx * (+35) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
03:20:12 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58005&oldid=57697 * A * (+146) /* Batch */
03:20:55 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58006&oldid=58005 * A * (+3) /* Batch */
03:21:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58007&oldid=58006 * A * (-149) No. Exactly same.
03:22:42 <esowiki> [[Babylang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58008&oldid=58003 * Xxhaxorxx * (+1) Grammer
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03:55:58 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58009&oldid=57774 * A * (+240) new algorithm(can be used in self-interpreters)
03:57:09 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58010&oldid=58009 * A * (+19) /* while(c=getchar()!=X) */
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08:24:11 <zzo38> How common is the way I used for dispatching by input in the implementations of Deadfish in MIX and MMIX?
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20:41:22 <zzo38> Can you deal with the differences in multi character literals in C programming by for example multiplying by '\1\0' or '\0\1'?
20:42:04 <rain2> im not sure what you mean zzo38
21:07:18 <zzo38> I mean for example if you write (a[0]*'\1\0'+a[1]*'\0\1')
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03:34:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Flux3on * New user account
04:00:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58011&oldid=58002 * Flux3on * (+221) /* Introductions */
06:05:13 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58012&oldid=58007 * Zzo38 * (+1039) Version of the [[MIX (Knuth)]] implementation for binary computers
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06:36:03 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58013&oldid=57220 * Zzo38 * (+493) Add instruction timings
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20:49:45 <esowiki> [[User:Tritonio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58014&oldid=11199 * Tritonio * (-35)
20:50:45 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58015&oldid=58010 * Tritonio * (-13) /* x(y) = z (1-d array) (1 cell/array element) */
20:50:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58016&oldid=58015 * Tritonio * (-13) /* x = y(z) (1-d array) (1 cell/array element) */
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21:41:41 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58017&oldid=57983 * JonoCode9374 * (+133)
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13:13:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf, Sgeo__: the last olist was over a week ago. put up a new one.
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14:53:55 <wob_jonas> darn it, I'll just use ASCII control characters to separate these fields. I know it looks ugly, but it clashes with fewer stuff.
14:55:09 <FaerieFly> IMO using the ASCII RS/FS/etc is semantically cleaner than csv/tsv/etc
14:56:52 <wob_jonas> I'm dumping some data, currently 20M long but will grow a bit, into a text file. I parse most of the text file with a script, but I also want to keep the text file somewhat human-readable, which is why I have indentation and sometimes want to put multiple string fields in the same line (so that there are fewer lines and so the human can see more) e
14:56:52 <wob_jonas> ven if it involves awkward separators and escaping
14:59:13 <wob_jonas> technically it seems that the data _currently_ doesn't include any dollar signs, carets, backticks, and tildes, but I'm not sure if I want to rely on that staying that way, so they're not very good separators
15:00:22 <wob_jonas> currently the only escaping in strings done is escaping "\r\n" to "\x0B". there are other escaping rules, because I need them to make sure the output is ambiguous, but they haven't been invoked yet.
15:02:47 <wob_jonas> I'll figure out how exactly to do the escaping. Currently I'm at a stage where I have a dumping script that only I use and a parsing script that only I use, so I can still do file format changes and make the reader not read old files. I can just re-run the dumper script.
15:07:40 <wob_jonas> The format used to have some string between parenthesis, and some between double brackets, but that gets ugly because some strings contain parenthesis or brackets. I have to rework this to a simple sane human-readable system, and I think that means I'll put some control character, probably "\x1F", as a separator whenever there'd be an ambiguity bec
15:07:41 <wob_jonas> ause of multiple strings in a line, and then just fix all the delimiters and parsing to saner
15:08:01 <wob_jonas> I don't want to have more than one escaping method.
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16:23:48 <olsner> https://twitter.com/chordbug/status/1051598071094751232 reminds me of that "at canada" quote
16:25:09 <HackEso> 362) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
16:25:36 <Taneb> One day maybe we will all be at Canada
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18:37:38 <wob_jonas> Ok, so this port is USB 2.0, and my home computer has no USB 3.0 (it's old). That's JUST enough to test whether this microSD card, which is supposedly Kingston but might be a chinese clone, really has a minimum of 30 MByte/s write speed. The card reader can definitely supports much more than that.
18:38:39 <wob_jonas> I'll test both write speed and read speed, just in case, but write speed is the one that actually matters, since I need higher write speed, and cards usually have a higher read speed than write speed.
18:38:53 <wob_jonas> This is consecutive read/write speed by the way, not random seeking.
18:39:50 <wob_jonas> Although I might also want to test in a different computer with an USB3 port, just for curiosity.
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18:41:14 <HackEso> 656) <oklopol> i think i'll just take the usual route and go do post doc research somewhere far away and never come back and become a drug lord and kill myself
18:41:16 <HackEso> xml//XML stands for "X-treme Mega Language (of Awesomeness)"
18:42:14 <wob_jonas> I'll use real well-compressed data just so that there's no cheating with zero blocks or anything like that.
18:42:36 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I woke up and saw a notification in this channel and thought it'd be an olist.
18:42:44 <shachaf> So now I'm double-disappointed.
18:43:20 <wob_jonas> Oh by the way, the command to time the write is something like sync; time ( ...; sync; ); which is quite appropriate, since the measurement is effectively time-sink, not useful workload.
18:44:26 <wob_jonas> Hmm, I might not be able to do this the way I want.
18:44:52 <wob_jonas> I can't just read all the data from my hard disk, because it doesn't have 30 MByte/s read speed.
18:45:26 <wob_jonas> Like, copying a large file whose contents fits in RAM multiple times.
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19:19:27 <wob_jonas> Failure: I only got 17.53 MByte/s sustained sequential write speed rather than the 30 MByte/s that I expected. I'll do more experiments to debug this, both now and later on a fast computer.
19:20:44 <wob_jonas> I'll do a read test with the same equipment first (I'll umount and remove the card first so that nothing can cache the data on the card)
19:21:20 <wob_jonas> Then I can try without the microSD to SD adapter, try a different SD card, or even a different reader.
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19:35:44 <wob_jonas> I've got 34.3 MByte/s read speed with the same equipment. That I think is limited by the effective read speed of the USB port.
19:39:46 <wob_jonas> Next I'll try another write test, with the same port and USB reader and same card, but this time without the adapter (so directly putting the SD card to the microSD slot),
19:40:02 <wob_jonas> and with a different test file so it doesn't try to write the same data that's already there, just in case.
19:44:30 <wob_jonas> Note that the adapter is relevant: it's an adapter I bought together with the microSD card, and I need fast write speed with the adapter, since I want to use it with the adapter in my compact camera
19:45:26 <wob_jonas> Taking multiple photos quickly is the main reason why I need a fast SD card,
19:46:38 <wob_jonas> Although with this compact camera, the difference between 10 MByte/s and 30 MByte/s might not actually matter much, since the limit in rapid fire shots seems to be image compression speed or something like that in the camera.
19:47:39 <wob_jonas> Strange really, because compressing to small (640x480) JPEG images should be pretty fast, and I get a limit even that way, so that's definitely not from the SD card.
19:48:31 <wob_jonas> It could be something other than the image compression, some raw image processing that doesn't depend on the resolution. But first I'm hoping I can actually get better speed in some cases, I just didn't do enough experiments,
19:50:22 <wob_jonas> Also, I'll need to actually copy the photos I took to my hard disk while I'm messing with SD cards.
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20:32:11 <nc_jonas> I got similar results without the adapter. I won't test with another card etc now, I'll test in the office on a fast computer instead.
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22:31:26 <Sgeo__> GEOS on the C64 has a weird calling convention (well, an optional one): The arguments are immediately after the jsr call. The function being called takes a look at the return address, copies those arguments elsewhere, then adjusts the return address
22:32:21 <Sgeo__> (Well, by optional I mean offered versions of standard library functions that do that. e.g. Rectangle gets arguments from special memory locations, i_Rectangle gets them the way I described)
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01:15:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58018&oldid=57130 * BradensEsolangs * (-545) I accept this
01:16:35 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58019&oldid=54877 * BradensEsolangs * (+17)
01:19:00 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58020&oldid=57960 * BradensEsolangs * (-190) *idea deaded and breaded*
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02:18:56 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58021&oldid=58017 * JonoCode9374 * (+110) /* External Resources */
02:25:06 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58022&oldid=58021 * JonoCode9374 * (+42) /* External Resources */
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07:08:28 <shachaf> Taneb: you might think you've only lost one shoe, but just wait for the other shoe to drop hth
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08:52:25 <Taneb> shachaf: good advice
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19:33:23 <HackEso> olist 1144: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:10:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58023&oldid=57999 * Rdebath * (-96) Changed link to avoid "irrelevant" files; removed mechanical DBFI translation.
21:40:25 <esowiki> [[Surreal Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58024&oldid=44665 * Plokmijnuhby * (+616) I was looking to make an esolang based on this and thought I'd fill it out a bit.
21:43:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AaronCG * New user account
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23:34:14 <oerjan> tarvek really gets to think on his feet
00:25:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Adamnew123456 * New user account
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12:12:35 <esowiki> [[Describish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58025&oldid=22178 * Pgimeno * (+590) Misc improvements
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12:27:59 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Introduce_yourself&diff=58011&oldid=58002 -- hmm, another user who can't read man pages. we'll have to be careful.
12:30:38 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58026&oldid=58022 * B jonas * (+25) [[Category:Non-textual]]
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13:13:32 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%AE%E1%93%82%EA%B3%A7%E2%8E%94&diff=57988&oldid=46778 wtf
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16:42:15 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58027&oldid=57991 * Blacksilver * (+38) color:grey on the comment
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19:37:23 <wob_jonas> hey ais523, good thing you're in. I wanted to ask something about parsing.
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19:41:45 <wob_jonas> I have some strange idea. You know how there's regular expressions with captures (I'll use perl-like as an example for now, but I know there's also posix-like ones); and there's the much more restricted parsers like C scanf or lua's patterns ("http://www.lua.org/manual/5.3/manual.html#6.4.1"), which can match a string that's a repetition of a given
19:41:45 <wob_jonas> set of characters, but not much more than that, and are absolutely unwilling to backtrack more than two or three chars, and even that only when they're in a really good mood?
19:42:31 <ais523> well, mathematical regular expressions tend to use state-sets rather than backtracking
19:43:32 <wob_jonas> Yes, I know, but this is specifically for grammars and parsers, with captures. The captures make them harder.
19:45:00 <wob_jonas> But what I'd like is a family of grammars in between these, one that I can interpret and parse with a parser that can backtrack one level, but probably not more than two. I want it to be able to backtrack one level to parse a repetition when it has a delimiter that may be multiple characters long and may have disjoint alternatives and lookaheads in
19:45:45 <wob_jonas> Eg. it should be able to match qr/(?>([abcd]*)ab)/ where [abcd]* is the repetition and ab is the delimiter,
19:46:12 <wob_jonas> but once it finds the delimiter, it won't backtrack the repetition ever, even if the regex fails to match later.
19:48:29 <wob_jonas> and delimiters for repetition with one level of backtracking for the repetition (both longest repetition and shortest repetition, so I also want to match qr/(?>([abcd]*?)ab)/ ) sounds nice, but I'm not sure what kind of backtracking I want for undoing the choice in an alternation, that is, alternation where one branch may match a prefix of what ano
19:49:08 <wob_jonas> I wonder if there's some such kind of grammar known, even in the abstract mathematical world with small alphabets that don't have to consider a practical implementation involving huge unicode character classes.
19:50:48 <wob_jonas> And I really need some sort of backtracking alternatives, because I can often change the accepted language so it never needs tricky multi-character delimiters by choosing a different delimiter that rarely appears in the quoted string, and a suitable escape method,
19:51:19 <wob_jonas> but it's more awkward to get rid of all backtracking alternatives, especially since you may want to use readable keywords whose first character could match.
19:51:52 <wob_jonas> like, I want to be able to match something that may be an integer in decimal or a floating point number in decimal, and decide which one.
19:52:57 <wob_jonas> But in some general way, so you can define grammars with special cases other than ones I hard-code, even if there's some built-in stuff for matching numbers in particular formats.
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> And let's say that I only want a subset of regular expressions, not anything outside like balanced parenthesis or perl -le'$==0,(1x$_)=~/^(|()1(?1)(?1)\2)$(?{$=++})^/,print$=for 0..13'
19:56:21 <wob_jonas> (Obviously that last one is a poster child of unlimited backtracking, so clearly I don't want that, but you get the idea.)
19:57:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm reminded of LR(1), but it's more powerful than typical regular expressions rather than less; perhaps LL(1) is the class you need
19:57:43 <wob_jonas> And I'd like the parser generator to be able to prove that there's only limited backtracking, even if this means I may have to put extra markers in the pattern when it can't prove that alone, like that atomic capture marking above that restricts the pattern from backtracking.
19:57:44 <ais523> IIRC Python's syntax is LL(1)
20:00:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: but LL(1) doesn't allow me to look forward, say, ten characters for qr/(?>[a-z]abcdefghij)/ or an unlimited number of characters. I want to be able to look ahead an unlimited number of characters, just not an unlimited depth of different lookaheads.
20:01:03 <ais523> well, it does, using temporary nondeterminism
20:01:28 <ais523> although, hmm, I think the lexer deals with those, not the parser?
20:02:08 <wob_jonas> Hmm wait, you're right. Not about the keywords, but about the temporary nondeterminism
20:02:13 <wob_jonas> I did that in one of the toy languages
20:02:35 <ais523> it's not /quite/ the case that nondeterminism is always better than backtracking
20:02:55 <ais523> but you need to be using really advanced backtracking features to make it better than nondeterminism
20:03:05 <wob_jonas> which can look ahead any number of tokens to determine if (ident0,ident1,ident2,... is an lvalue or an rvalue
20:03:38 <wob_jonas> it actually gets parsed to an lvalue, and then that lvalue gets converted to an rvalue later.
20:04:19 <wob_jonas> that one uses a yacc parser, although for handling loops and functions it uses features that a yacc parser isn't allowed to do, implemented in C++
20:04:20 <ais523> I've been using a LR(1) parser for a golfing language, which is helpful because I can look at the state transitions to see if any program is accidentally illegal in the language
20:05:23 <wob_jonas> although I'm not sure how an LL parser would do that
20:05:35 <wob_jonas> the other toy language https://esolangs.org/wiki/Scan uses an LL parser
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> I don't really know what exactly I want, but perhaps you have pointers
20:06:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: did you post anything about that analog computer minimalistic esolang?
20:06:43 <wob_jonas> (yes, I looked at Recent Changes, I know you haven't)
20:10:56 <wob_jonas> Also, in my job, my supervisor is trying to convince me to use one of these online productivity tools that require me to personally agree to some legal terms where I state that the guys hosting that will own anything anyone has done at the company. Won't happen, but I'll have to spend a few hours reading those stupid legal terms so I can actually c
20:10:56 <wob_jonas> onvince her why I don't want to do that. They tried that at my previous company too, and there I managed to convince them it was a bad idea.
20:11:10 <wob_jonas> This one's a different one, but there's a whole lot of them online.
20:12:08 <ais523> does the company have its own lawyers? if so, you might want to let them know what's going on
20:12:35 <wob_jonas> I don't care about the terms that say that they can suddenly start charging fees for their services, because they can't enforce those, but I don't like the ones that host company data and want me personally to agree to give them rights to use everything anyone else in the company worked on.
20:12:37 <ais523> what is your job, anyway?
20:13:04 <ais523> it sounds like you can't legally agree to those terms because they contradict the terms in your employment contract that the company owns the work you do for them
20:14:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: In this job, the company is making a digital electronics control system for some factory engineering system, and I'm working on the GUI that we make and that the operators in the factory will use to know about the state and partly control that control system and what the machines are doing.
20:15:00 <ais523> what OS are these things running? something standard or something custom?
20:15:15 <wob_jonas> Not to me. It's not a really good job for me, but I consider it somewhat temporary.
20:16:17 <ais523> I mean, it makes sense that the job exists
20:16:33 <wob_jonas> The control system is running on some sort-of-custom embedded hardware by Siemens where the compiler can prove a deterministic bound on the reaction time, but the GUI runs on Windows, in some huge software framework also made by Siemens, and it communicates with the control system through an ethernet LAN.
20:17:04 <wob_jonas> The control system CPUs also communicate with some measurement devices, on another LAN, to which only they and the measurement devices have access, to guarantee the latency.
20:17:38 <wob_jonas> The framework is rather well designed, but also limited so you can't mess up too much, and to some extent optimized for people other than CS geeks like me, which is annoying.
20:18:30 <wob_jonas> This company is sort of the opposite of the previous one in that it's mostly engineers working there, with too few CS people, so now it was trying to hure any computer guy or programmer available,
20:19:02 <wob_jonas> but in exchange that means that most coworkers I could talk to use some cryptic jargon, talking about electronics hardware all the time, and I'm not interested in that at all.
20:19:15 <wob_jonas> They're nice guys, but I just can't enjoy the whole thing.
20:19:49 <wob_jonas> So I'm trying to help them in the less boring IT automation stuff a bit.
20:23:55 <wob_jonas> And as for back for the legal stuff, on one hand, the project manager and bosses might have the right to agree to give the project they're making to those providers, so if they're making me, then I could agree to those stupid conditions, but that doesn't mean that I want to be personally responsible for that.
20:24:43 <wob_jonas> So I'd rather try to convince them otherwise, partly by telling them about the other stupid tool that the managers wanted me to use at the previous job,
20:25:56 <wob_jonas> and partly by (sign) spending my time reading the boring contract and finding something I can directly point to, rather than just the vague stuff where they say they'll update their whole legal agreement once every week and I have to agree to the new agreement to continue to work with, and obviously I won't have the time to read the new agreement e
20:25:56 <wob_jonas> very time I actually want to do some useful work with the project.
20:28:15 <wob_jonas> It's ugly both because it's for work and because it's a service abroad, whereas eg. my mobile phone providers or internet providers or bank have similar legal terms, but they're limited in how they can change and apply them by the laws of Hungary that I can actually enforce at small claims court if I need to.
20:29:16 <wob_jonas> If a random foreign provider gets access to some data with their software, and there's a company I'm working to involved, then I'm in a very bad situation if they do something actually bad and I want any sort of fix.
20:31:55 <wob_jonas> Sadly I was reading a lot of such conditions for mobile phone companies and banks these days, although admittedly not only the ugly legal parts about how they have the right to use the data they collect, but the part for how much money they charge. I'm actually going to switch mobile phone providers in a month or two.
20:32:16 <wob_jonas> My current provider is changing their terms so another one is more worth for me.
20:33:27 <wob_jonas> I'm also buying a secondary mobile phone account for my grandmother, which is tricky because I have to communicate not only with the mobile phone providers but also with my grandma. I'm not sure which task is more pleasant.
20:33:55 <wob_jonas> At least the customer service guys sometimes seem like they're trying to listen to what I'm saying, and don't run out of their patience when doing that.
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22:06:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FireCubez * New user account
22:11:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58028&oldid=58011 * FireCubez * (+259)
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23:01:55 <esowiki> [[FLIPER Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58029 * FireCubez * (+1614) Created page with "The FLIPER Computer is a computational model made by [[User:FireCubez]] with 6 commands. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Position !! Action |- | F || 0 ||..."
23:19:12 <esowiki> [[FLIPER Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58030&oldid=58029 * FireCubez * (+0) /* Commands */
00:57:16 <Sgeo_> I wonder if WebAssembly could be compiled to 6502
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02:19:33 <doesthiswork> I greped for a phrase and the first result was .bash history of me greping the phrase
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07:19:58 <zzo38> Here is one new idea of Magic: the Gathering card: As a special action you can sacrifice a permanent that is a target of a spell or ability controlled by an opponent.
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09:46:06 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think making that a special action rather than a bog standard triggered ability on the card won't pull its weight. Most of the time there'll be no difference from a trigger, and many of the times when they differ, having a special action there will seem bad for the enjoyment of the game.
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14:03:52 <devhenZv> mwilson: If I knew all of the inner-workings of LS, then I wouldn't be here asking for assistance with a "Hello World" for rule creation. If you needed somebody to take your rage out on for the day, you could have just said so.
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16:10:08 <zzo38> Actually I think you are right a triggered ability would be better in this case.
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16:11:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and with the triggered ability, that's something you find on a lot of old cards, but deliberately not on new cards. there's always some effect the trigger gives, but sometimes it's not very useful.
16:12:11 <wob_jonas> Let me try to find what creature does it for cheap mana cost.
16:12:36 <wob_jonas> Well, they allow sacrificing any creature, not just one targeted, but so what.
16:16:34 <HackEso> Dross Hopper \ 1B \ Creature -- Insect Horror \ 2/1 \ Sacrifice a creature: Dross Hopper gains flying until end of turn. \ SOM-C
16:16:51 <wob_jonas> That one seems typical. It's much harder if you don't want to pay black for it.
16:17:59 <HackEso> Bloodthrone Vampire \ 1B \ Creature -- Vampire \ 1/1 \ Sacrifice a creature: Bloodthrone Vampire gets +2/+2 until end of turn. \ ROE-C, M11-C, M13-C, MM2-C, DDP-C
16:20:02 <HackEso> Fanatical Devotion \ 2W \ Enchantment \ Sacrifice a creature: Regenerate target creature. \ NE-C
16:21:41 <wob_jonas> And if you need colorless, then Spawning Pit may be the best bet. It's a Darksteel uncommon.
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16:22:25 <zzo38> OK, I have seen that stuff. Mine is a bit different, being a triggered rather than activated ability, although it could have another power too in order that it make better, such as having some effect when you sacrifice a permanent (perhaps due to anything), or when a permanent you control dies (due to anything), or maybe something else.
16:22:49 <wob_jonas> In a pinch you can use some spot removal or burn spell instead too.
16:22:54 <zzo38> I did once make up something like Fanatical Devotion except it said "permanent" instead of "creature" in both cases.
16:24:06 <wob_jonas> Reknit can regenerate any permanent. Making it so easily repeatable would be too overpowered, it would lead to infinite combos too easily.
16:24:30 <wob_jonas> Triggering is even more dangerous in that respect.
16:24:58 <zzo38> I suppose you are probably correct.
16:25:05 <wob_jonas> And triggering on your creatures getting targeted? That's the easiest way to make a cheap combo deck. It's so easy even I have done it.
16:25:24 <wob_jonas> Mind you, just triggering to sacrifice it with no additional effects wouldn't be too bad.
16:25:29 <wob_jonas> But anything useful and it gets out of hand.
16:26:16 <wob_jonas> They only dared to print the cheapest effect, which is giving the same creature or sometimes some other creature a toughness boost, but even that makes it too easy to assemble an infinite life combo that I can reliably pull off between third and fifth turns inclusive.
16:26:46 <wob_jonas> Hmm wait, how did your card go? Did you only trigger on an effect controlled by an opponent?
16:27:02 <wob_jonas> "a permanent that is a target of a spell or ability controlled by an opponent."
16:29:06 <zzo38> Yes that is why I did that way
16:29:13 <wob_jonas> they used that trick to put stupid counterintuitive processor costs in Battle for Zendikar without breaking eternal formats. I don't like it in that case, but with just sacrificing the creature, you can get away with it.
16:29:32 <wob_jonas> Also, there are illusion creatures that have a trigger to die if it's targeted built in, in blue and black
16:30:47 <HackEso> Skulking Ghost \ 1B \ Creature -- Spirit \ 2/1 \ Flying \ When Skulking Ghost becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it. \ MI-C, EMA-C
16:30:54 <wob_jonas> that one isn't an Illusion technically
16:31:34 <wob_jonas> blue also has sort of the opposite effect, Shimmering creatures in the Kamigawa block
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23:08:32 <zzo38> Why does SQLite use chapter 4 of the Rule of Saint Benedict as their Code of Conduct? Much of it is not applicable to software development, and they admit nobody can comply perfectly anyways, and also some statements are meaningless to non-Christians. At least, they say "Polite and professional discussion is always welcomed, from anyone."
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23:59:56 <doesthiswork> John Shutt has a proposal for a better esolang wiki http://fexpr.blogspot.com/2018/10/lisp-mud-and-wikis.html
00:04:46 <zzo38> Could a wiki be made out of my "HTTP Directory Listing" specification? However, unless you put in special cases in the server, it might not work properly with some versions of Internet Explorer because they emit a strange Accept header.
00:05:27 <zzo38> (Such as, you can use the User-Agent header if the Accept header is not specific enough.)
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00:20:10 <doesthiswork> where is your httpe directory listing specification?
00:26:13 <zzo38> It is at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/httpdirlist
00:35:02 <zzo38> Did you read this?
01:39:30 * oerjan reads the logs and has a hunch devhenZv joined the wrong channel...
01:40:22 <oerjan> unless it was a particularly incomprehensible spammer
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02:02:01 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58031&oldid=56529 * Galaxtone * (-66)
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05:25:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Antares * New user account
05:31:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58032&oldid=58028 * Antares * (+199)
05:31:48 <esowiki> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58033&oldid=50869 * Antares * (+16)
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07:29:31 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58034&oldid=58026 * JonoCode9374 * (+98)
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18:15:41 <zzo38> If you have any suggest to change HTTP Directory Listing specification then please make such complaints in order that I may fix them.
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22:32:30 <doesthiswork> zzo38: it is beyond my area of expertise so I can only offer suggestions on what color to paint the bikeshed
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22:49:16 <doesthiswork> I really like the "deleted" visibility. It is great for security
22:52:28 <doesthiswork> are standard headers that are not mentioned in your document like "upgrade" permitted to be used?
22:53:45 <zzo38> Yes, although I do not see how Upgrade is useful for the purposes specified there.
22:57:29 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58035&oldid=58034 * JonoCode9374 * (+118) /* Future Ideas */
22:57:53 <zzo38> Perhaps I should mention, although really anything is permitted although not everything is useful. Sometimes new HTTP headers are invented, and if they are useful here then you may use them (implementations that do not understand them can ignore them, as in other cases).
22:59:19 <doesthiswork> since makes sense when you just want updates, but for symetry, can you request a copy of the file from a particular date?
23:00:15 <zzo38> You can use the Location field of the history record to get a permanent link to the copy of the file from that date.
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23:04:55 <zzo38> The Content-Location field should be used to specify the link target, I think. If you have better suggestions we may be able to use that, though.
23:09:42 <zzo38> They are used for dynamic files that are executed when accessed rather than being static documents.
23:11:25 <doesthiswork> ah, and finally x-content-duration seems like a usefull header, but I am surprised to see it in a specification for directory listing format
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23:12:44 <zzo38> The only reason it is listed is because it is nonstandard. It can be used as a normal HTTP response header too, which was its original intention, but it is provided there in case the server wants to provide it as part of the directory listing too, in case you want it to be displayed in a list of audio or video files.
23:13:14 <zzo38> I did not invent that header.
23:29:52 <doesthiswork> You specification seems pretty cool, I'm going to have to read more about http
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01:54:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RealUndefined * New user account
01:58:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58036&oldid=58032 * RealUndefined * (+166)
02:00:28 <esowiki> [[User:RealUndefined]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58037 * RealUndefined * (+167) Created page with "I came from [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com PPCG]. You can find me [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/81098/u-ndefined here.] I code [[Pepe]] and [[Pyth]]."
02:02:48 <esowiki> [[Pepe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58038&oldid=55359 * RealUndefined * (+16) /* Examples */ Links and fixed code in Cat
04:14:23 <zzo38> There is tournaments for composing and solving chess problems. Will there be tournaments for composing and solving Magic: the Puzzling?
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05:15:47 <zzo38> There are many features I have not seen in any Magic: the Gathering puzzles yet, such as: selfmate, helpmate (orthodox and unorthodox), fairy (although I have made one myself once), Babson task, grotesque, game you have to draw instead of win, ante, puzzles designed where the variants are different versions of the game rules rather than different cards, puzzles where it is necessary to concede a lot, etc.
05:16:26 <zzo38> I did see one retro (in Rosewater's "Magic: the Puzzling" book), and I have once made a puzzle where it is necessary to concede just once (although I have seen no other puzzles where it is ever necessary to concede).
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07:10:11 <qlink> Entered QRoom: Sgeo2
07:10:23 <qlink> {Sgeo2} Hello all!
07:10:56 <HackEso> Q-Link: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
07:11:21 <Sgeo__> https://imgur.com/2Hoz48T
07:13:06 <qlink> {Sgeo2} I lost access to the "Sgeo" account on Q-Link :(
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08:25:50 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58039&oldid=58012 * JonoCode9374 * (+783) Added MineFriff version
08:26:28 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58040&oldid=58035 * JonoCode9374 * (+793) /* Examples */
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11:55:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58041&oldid=56340 * Tang891228 * (-2) /* 0-99 */ adjust format
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14:47:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58042&oldid=58041 * Oerjan * (+2) Undo revision 58041 by [[Special:Contributions/Tang891228|Tang891228]] ([[User talk:Tang891228|talk]]) (It's logical: the space comes between the program and the brackets, and the program is empty.)
14:48:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58043&oldid=58042 * Oerjan * (+0) Except there seems to have been something funny with the space...
14:49:57 <HackEso> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
14:50:15 <oerjan> probably nbsp or something.
14:56:38 <int-e> hmm what's the relevance of 45306
14:57:36 <int-e> `` dc <<<16o45306p
14:57:37 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/dc: line 1: /usr/bin/dc: No such file or directory
14:58:59 <int-e> `` printf %X 45306
15:04:04 <int-e> Oh well perhaps it was a truly random choice of the running example.
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15:24:47 <HackEso> DC_LINE_LENGTH=10000 /usr/bin/dc "$@"
15:25:22 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: where: command not found
15:25:44 <oerjan> oh it's a tcsh internal command
15:27:42 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tm: not found
15:27:43 <int-e> I blame fizzie (thanks for running HackEso, it's appreciated!!!!!1)
15:28:57 <HackEso> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
15:29:37 <int-e> of course /etc is absolutely minimal
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18:07:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: IIRC you should blame debian, because dc and bc and I think ed aren't installed in the default install, and since practically nothing depends on them, you have to install them explicitly or else you just won't have them
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21:47:46 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58044&oldid=58040 * JonoCode9374 * (+182) /* Commands */
21:52:02 <zzo38> It has been said that httpdirlist is like a better version of WebDAV.
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22:00:29 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58045&oldid=58044 * JonoCode9374 * (+24) /* Deadfish Interpreter */
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05:37:46 <zzo38> If arrows are two for a penny and lead sling stones are ten for a farthing, do you think these prices make sense?
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10:08:34 <Taneb> Remind me how many farthings are in a penny?
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10:32:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it depends. in many games, you simply don't need that much realism, and just have slingstones and +0 arrows untracked, so that anyone who has a sling or bow can conjure a new stone or arrow resp from thin air as needed, limited only by the recharge time of the sling or bow, the number of projectiles you can have on screen at the same time, o
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10:43:33 <wob_jonas> Taneb: aww, pre-decimisation money. it's not as simple as gold pieces that are worth equal to either 10 or 100 silver pieces, depending on which game you take.
10:45:37 <wob_jonas> (Except in Harry Potter, where a gold piece is worth 17 silver pieces.)
10:49:23 <Taneb> I think there's four farthings in a penny?
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11:13:37 <int-e> how many quarter inches are there in a furlong?
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16:43:59 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes there are four farthings in one penny
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17:15:37 <zzo38> Thridings? I don't think that is the money; the money is pound, shilling, penny, farthing
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17:28:12 <zzo38> Yes, a shilling is also called bob
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17:45:37 <john_metcalf> There used to be a quarter farthing coin as well. The smallest value coin the UK had.
17:46:12 <zzo38> Yes, I have read that there was such thing
17:48:23 <john_metcalf> I randomly have a coin book on my desk today :-)
17:50:23 <zzo38> Is good knowing the old money because many stories are using them, including this GURPS game I play and also some British television shows (including ones that are available in Canada, too).
18:06:00 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+16 I suppose the story can be confusing if you do not know the old money. The term "hit points" is used only in the footnotes.
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22:35:19 <zzo38> When implementing the stack protection in Free Hero Mesh, it is notice that large allocations seem to be much closer to the stack. For example, if allocating 99999 bytes then I get 0x1722160 0x7ffc4a194ec0 but if allocating 999999 bytes then I get 0x7f7eb7ddd010 0x7ffc5b7333f0 (the first number is the address of this allocation, and the second number is the frame address of main()). Do you know what is causing this?
22:45:08 <lambdabot> ENVA 222220Z 08004KT 040V120 9999 SCT039 BKN059 03/01 Q0995 RMK WIND 670FT 14010KT
22:45:20 <oerjan> inching closer to the cows
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23:38:27 <doesthiswork> what do you mean by "inching closer to the cows?"
23:42:50 <lambdabot> EGLL 222320Z AUTO 27006KT 9999 NCD 06/04 Q1037 NOSIG
23:44:42 <lambdabot> EFPO 222320Z AUTO 27005KT CAVOK 06/M00 Q1000
23:44:47 <fizzie> That's a half-cow, for example.
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23:52:43 <fizzie> zzo38: There's at least some allocators (for Unix-like systems) that use individual mmap system calls for large allocations, but satisfy smaller allocations from a managed-in-process region of memory ("the heap") that comes right after the program data section. Or just have multiple arenas in different locations.
23:53:29 <fizzie> zzo38: See e.g. https://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/MallocInternals for the glibc allocator. "If the request is large enough, mmap() is used to request memory directly from the operating system."
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00:32:21 <zzo38> O, and the mmap address is higher I suppose. Then, that will explain it
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00:51:33 <oren> 5-18-1 Summary: Don't use the comma operator. Pros: Some people might be confused by the comma operator. Cons: The comma operator is no more inherently unsafe than any other construct. Some people might be confused by it, but not people who are competent in C and C++. It's been used for decades and is a normal part of programming practice. Our Approach: Always Disregard
00:52:04 <oren> stupid MISRA. MISRA is making me misra-ble
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01:36:26 <zzo38> oren: What is that?
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03:35:26 <zzo38> I have worked more on Free Hero Mesh (including now the level can be rendered in the level editor, and some numbers are displayed on the left, although the level editor is not yet complete). Do you like this Free Hero Mesh so far?
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06:12:48 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58046&oldid=58013 * Zzo38 * (+702)
06:16:21 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58047&oldid=58046 * Zzo38 * (+14)
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09:58:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, what fizzie said, but with the additional trick is that the heap address is large on x86_64 because it's more convenient to manage a contiguous (in virtual address space) heap
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12:16:49 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58048&oldid=57928 * Sinthorion * (+2242)
12:25:07 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58049&oldid=58048 * Sinthorion * (+658)
12:26:07 <esowiki> [[BFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58050&oldid=58049 * Sinthorion * (+40) /* Layer 1 */
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17:34:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:BFC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58051 * Sinthorion * (+1396) Created page with " === Idea: Variadic template parameters === Example: <code> {printc:c:_{c}+.} {prints:*s:{printc:{s}}_} {prints:48:65:6C:6C:6F} (prints "Hello") </code> Explanation: Any param..."
17:42:10 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58052&oldid=58050 * Sinthorion * (+592) defaults / template overloading
17:42:50 <esowiki> [[BFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58053&oldid=58052 * Sinthorion * (+9)
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17:54:59 <oren> I think the best way to 1-up sqlite would be to use a code of conduct even older, say excerpted from Lucretius or Marcus Aurelius
18:01:29 <oren> Let no act be done without a purpose, nor otherwise than according to the perfect principles of art. -- Imp. C. Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Aug.
18:04:58 <izabera> if i have two comparison functions and a set of elements
18:05:35 <izabera> what data structure can i use to quickly find an element that's >X according to one criterion, and >Y according to the other one?
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19:32:07 <oren> izabera: a treap, maybe?
19:33:02 <oren> izabera: or perhaps just two trees
19:36:10 <izabera> but i can't find which elements match both conditions
19:36:34 <izabera> best i can do is basically a linear scan
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20:04:24 <Taneb> You're not going to be able to do it better than O(N) no matter what
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23:09:53 <oerjan> `le/rn hammurabi//If anyone creates a webpage that unexpectedly starts playing sounds, he shall be put to death. http://45338297.weebly.com/laws-on-property-and-theft.html
23:09:55 <HackEso> Learned 'hammurabi': If anyone creates a webpage that unexpectedly starts playing sounds, he shall be put to death. http://45338297.weebly.com/laws-on-property-and-theft.html
23:10:25 * oerjan was trying to look up some better sources for oren
23:13:34 <oerjan> `slwd hammurabi//s,I,From Hammurabi's law: I,
23:13:35 <HackEso> hammurabi//From Hammurabi's law: If anyone creates a webpage that unexpectedly starts playing sounds, he shall be put to death. http://45338297.weebly.com/laws-on-property-and-theft.html
23:13:58 <oerjan> (before i get put to death for violating the laws of wisdom)
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23:46:44 <Sgeo> PLAV SPACE INVADERS
00:37:39 <Sgeo> Play Commodore PET Space Invaders, get high score screen
00:40:53 <Sgeo> Or actually just wait
00:41:46 <Sgeo> https://imgur.com/x2yf9dF
00:42:05 <Sgeo> Alien thing comes and fixes the V with a Y
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05:00:00 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58054&oldid=58045 * JonoCode9374 * (+50) /* Future Ideas */
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06:33:39 <lambdabot> *** "pilaf" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
06:33:39 <lambdabot> n 1: rice cooked in well-seasoned broth with onions or celery
06:33:39 <lambdabot> and usually poultry or game or shellfish and sometimes
06:33:39 <lambdabot> tomatoes [syn: {pilaf}, {pilaff}, {pilau}, {pilaw}]
06:34:21 <int-e> @tell oerjan I'd take "plav" for a variant spelling of "pilaf", but who knows.
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07:54:33 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58055&oldid=58054 * JonoCode9374 * (+97) /* Hello World */
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07:55:29 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58056&oldid=58055 * JonoCode9374 * (+218) /* Commands */
07:56:06 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58057&oldid=58056 * JonoCode9374 * (+35) /* Interpreting modes */
07:57:22 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58058&oldid=58057 * JonoCode9374 * (-266)
08:02:47 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58059&oldid=58058 * JonoCode9374 * (+78) /* Examples */
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09:09:02 <wob_jonas> izabera: one of those crazy geometric stuff like quadtrees or R-trees, eg. https://sqlite.org/rtree.html
09:10:17 <wob_jonas> oerjan: dude, that is exactly the sort of stuff for which we don't need laws, but only a technological solution where you start all your browser threads muted and your browser marks which tabs are trying to play sound
09:13:34 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I personally have more problems with websites that unexpectedly start playing high res videos, because I have an old computer at home that doesn't have the resources for that. In particular, youtube unpauses the video two or three times when you load a youtube page by default.
09:28:51 <izabera> hey Taneb why don't you come to the uk championship this weekend
09:43:45 <Taneb> Which UK championship
10:07:34 <izabera> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/UKC2018
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12:39:05 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58060 * Ais523 * (+30869) now that I've worked out the details, this is definitely worth posting even if I don't get around to implementing it
12:39:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58061&oldid=57974 * Ais523 * (+19) /* P */ +[[Precognition]]
12:40:10 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58062&oldid=57554 * Ais523 * (+18) +[[Precognition]]
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12:42:41 <ais523> I just posted a new esolang to the wiki
12:43:01 <ais523> the ideas behind this have been brewing for years, and it was originally several different languages
12:43:22 <ais523> but I only noticed that they could all be merged pretty easily a few days ago, and the spec wasn't too hard to write
12:43:29 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Precognition
12:44:10 <ais523> it's one of those languages which should be easy to implement, but hard to implement efficiently
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12:55:35 <LKoen> "The simplest way to implement this is to run all the possibilities in parallel until one of them happens to find a solution, then discard all the others. Implementations are free to choose a more efficient algorithm if they wish."
12:56:08 <LKoen> ais523: if you're interested, I've written an incredibly simple program that cracks SHA256 hashes
12:56:46 <LKoen> but it's not particularly efficient
12:57:59 <LKoen> which is an ordered list for which each elements can be a lexemes or a groupemes. <<< are you sure you want thoses -s here? it looks like plural
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13:00:07 <ais523> that's probably a typo
13:00:12 <ais523> it's hard to proofread pages this long
13:01:23 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58063&oldid=58060 * Ais523 * (-2) fix typo pointed out by LKoen on IRC
13:02:04 <LKoen> well, it's the first occurrence of those two words on that page, so I couldn't be sure
13:04:33 <ais523> the sentence was originally arranged differently, I missed changing the bits in italic when I changed the rest of it
13:10:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, this one isn't the analog computer, ri9ght?
13:12:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, it's an entirely different language
13:12:55 <ais523> it's something of a cross between regex, lisp, prolog and m4
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13:41:22 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58064&oldid=58063 * B jonas * (+0) metagroupemes representation
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14:24:09 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58065&oldid=58064 * B jonas * (-1) typo
14:24:54 <Taneb> izabera: are you going? And if so, for what?
14:27:32 <izabera> yeah but i'm mostly just hanging around
14:27:47 <izabera> i'll try not to get last place in at least one puzzle
14:30:26 <Taneb> Well, the way to do that is to pay for me to compete too
14:30:40 <Taneb> (please don't do that)
14:33:54 <izabera> i'll buy you a whole coffee at cafè nero
14:41:07 <Taneb> I have a caffeine intolerance
14:59:24 <izabera> then i'll use it as a threat
15:04:00 <Taneb> Well, I can't do Friday, definitely
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15:09:08 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas that law was parodied on the website listed, did you visit it?
15:09:18 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas that law was parodied on the website listed, did you visit it?
15:09:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Precognition]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58066 * B jonas * (+2459) Created page with "== Questions about the specs == #Why don't you separate the initial sring from the parts by a part separator <code>;</code> , and perhaps distinguish type I parts by a traili..."
15:10:00 <oerjan> hm he's around but not here
15:10:44 <lambdabot> int-e said 8h 36m 23s ago: I'd take "plav" for a variant spelling of "pilaf", but who knows.
15:12:53 <oerjan> also, now i want some pilaf :(
15:13:19 <oerjan> but am too lazy to cook
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15:23:24 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I don't get the context. What law, discussed where?
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15:35:11 <oerjan> `@ wob_jonas `? hammurabi
15:35:12 <HackEso> wob_jonas: Can't exec "`?": No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/@ line 2.
15:35:22 <oerjan> `@ wob_jonas ? hammurabi
15:35:23 <HackEso> wob_jonas: From Hammurabi's law: If anyone creates a webpage that unexpectedly starts playing sounds, he shall be put to death. http://45338297.weebly.com/laws-on-property-and-theft.html
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16:27:43 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze/mice.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58067 * Koen * (+5519) A [[Mice in a maze]] interpreter in python.
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17:43:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58068&oldid=58066 * Ais523 * (+1221) replies
17:45:16 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58069&oldid=43943 * Koen * (+191) Add section "Implementation" and categories: Implemented, Two-dimensional languages, Concurrent programming
17:46:31 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58070&oldid=58065 * Ais523 * (+125) clarifications per talk
17:52:31 <LKoen> I wanted to write a parallel implementation of the Hello World example in Maze
17:52:45 <LKoen> to showcase the language's ability to run several mice in the maze
17:52:50 <LKoen> in Mice in the maze*
17:53:14 <LKoen> but actually, all mice share the same brainfuck tape pointer
17:53:46 <LKoen> so that requires a lot more thought
17:54:30 <LKoen> (also the purpose is to brag about a "more efficient" hello world implementation, because it would cost fewer ticks... but each tick would be used to execute two instructions instead of one, so there's no real gain)
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21:56:11 <esowiki> [[Temporal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58071 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2485) Created page with "Temporal is a stack-based time-travel language by ~~~ (we don't appear to have one yet, and it's not like they're hard to design). When I refer to "a timestep", I don't mean..."
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05:00:08 <izabera> https://pastagen.github.io/
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10:04:40 <wob_jonas> Buying a cheap but usable keyboard from my own money and bringing it in to work was a really good choice. And I'm a computer guy, so they gave me actual keybaords, not a cashier or mobile phone company customer service guy who's forced to use a touchscreen, and they gave me two more types of keyboards to try when I didn't like the first one, but st
10:04:41 <wob_jonas> ill this cheap one tops any of those three easily.
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11:00:44 <wob_jonas> Argh, this is a stressful day during work. Good thing I'm going to leave early.\
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12:01:58 <esowiki> [[Temporal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58072&oldid=58071 * Ais523 * (-47) fix the format of the author attribution to comply with policy
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12:49:40 <esowiki> [[Bf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58073 * Sinthorion * (+23) added redirect
12:49:59 <esowiki> [[Brainf**k]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58074 * Sinthorion * (+23) added redirect
12:50:21 <esowiki> [[B****fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58075 * Sinthorion * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
13:14:38 <fungot> int-e: utf-8 is an encoding for humans to tell the time in symbolic processing programs.
13:15:11 <HackEso> Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
13:15:30 <int-e> `learn utf-8 is an encoding for humans to tell the time in symbolic processing programs.
13:15:33 <HackEso> Learned 'utf-8': utf-8 is an encoding for humans to tell the time in symbolic processing programs.
13:16:40 <int-e> `` ln -s wisdom/{utf-8,utf8}
13:17:22 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/utf8; ln wisdom/{utf-8,utf8}
13:18:16 <fungot> int-e: consider the example in cps.
13:18:17 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
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13:54:35 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I wonder why unicode put so many rare latin letters for african languages that nobody really writes and IPA stuff and combining marks and all that sort of nonsense in the low 2048 codepoints, like between U+0180 and U+036F inclusive, when those low 2048 characters (the ones that take one or two bytes in utf-8) are so precious.
13:55:00 <wob_jonas> Wouldn't they have been better used for characters that more people are likely to use often, like fullwidth kana?
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13:59:36 <esowiki> [[Temporal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58076&oldid=58072 * Plokmijnuhby * (+879) Extended intro and created paradox
14:14:12 <wob_jonas> Mind you, some of the rest of that 2048 is actually useful stuff, like cyrillic and hebrew characters
14:21:30 <wob_jonas> int-e, Firefly: can you help figure out this nonsense and put it right? vvv
14:21:37 <HackEso> , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ & https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984
14:21:39 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
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14:21:40 <HackEso> , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ & https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984
14:23:52 <int-e> `paste wisdom/fonts
14:23:52 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom/fonts
14:26:19 <int-e> `le/rn fonts//#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ &...
14:26:21 <HackEso> Relearned 'fonts': #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ &...
14:26:25 <int-e> ...https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984
14:27:18 <int-e> `slwd wisdom//s=...$= https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984=
14:27:19 <HackEso> wisdom//wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984
14:27:34 <int-e> `slwd fonts//s=...$= https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984=
14:27:36 <HackEso> fonts//#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ & https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984
14:27:51 <int-e> something like that
14:29:37 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
14:29:40 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ & https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984
14:29:47 <int-e> okay, I'm confused.
14:30:18 <lifthrasiir> also pretty much confused for multiple mentions.
14:32:11 <wob_jonas> hi lifthrashiir, sorry for the pings, it's just a wisdom entry that got too long and you're mentioned in it
14:32:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: part of the problem is that the wisdom entry got too long. perhaps we should remove the second link for lifthr's font
14:33:50 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
14:34:05 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
14:34:31 <int-e> there's no good reason to have both 'font' and 'fonts'... and the former is the one that looks more up to date.
14:35:07 <int-e> (in that somebody went through the effort of removing the samples to make more room)
14:36:22 <int-e> where somebody = wob_jonas
14:37:07 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I guess I just didn't notice that there was also a wisdom/fonts, and maybe I'm responsible for creating that one... let me see
14:38:12 <lifthrasiir> wob_jonas: UTF-8 was pretty much an afterthought for Unicode, the original Unicode standard was roughly structured into general (smaller) scripts (U+0xxx & 1xxx), punctuations and symbols (U+2xxx), CJK scripts (U+3xxx and beyond), private use characters (U+Exxx & Fxxx <= U+F8FF) and specials (U+FExx & FFxx).
14:39:32 <lifthrasiir> Unicode originally only wanted to encode modern scripts, so that structure can be planned ahead of time
14:39:54 <HackEso> File: bin/paste \ Size: 267 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 1204642 Links: 1 \ Access: (0755/-rwxr-xr-x) Uid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2018-04-07 22:41:28.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2018-04-07 22:41:28.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2018-04-07 22:41:28.000000000 +0000 \ Birth: -
14:40:13 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/paste
14:40:56 <int-e> ah I should be using `url
14:40:59 <wob_jonas> that's the sort of thing why I wasn't so eager to swtiching
14:44:48 <lifthrasiir> wob_jonas: that also explains why we have CJK ideograph extension A (U+3400 thru U+4DBF) *before* CJK unified ideograph (U+4E00 thru U+9FFF) :-D
14:45:16 <wob_jonas> int-e: whewh no, I blame Firefwisdom/fonts
14:45:55 <wob_jonas> lifthrasiir: I don't much care about the _order_, because it's hard to plan that sort of thing in advance.
14:46:10 <wob_jonas> it's just the waste of the starting 2048 long block that seems bad
14:46:26 <lifthrasiir> wob_jonas: yeah, but it does give a historical clue about the initial allocation method
14:46:42 <wob_jonas> and I also understand that sometimes it's hard to tell in advance which characters would get lots of use
14:48:05 <lifthrasiir> the original CJK scripts as of Unicode 1.0.1 were encoded as like: general & Japanese & Bopomofo (thru U+33FF), Hangul (thru U+4DFF), then CJK unified ideograph (thru U+9FFF)
14:48:44 <lifthrasiir> and then Hangul got relocated to U+AC00 thru U+D7FF (so that, well, it is located right behind surrogate pairs that were new in Unicode 2.0)
14:49:23 <lifthrasiir> so a big hole where Hangul has left were reused for CJK ext A
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15:12:18 <esowiki> [[TCC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58077 * A * (+613) Created page with ""TCC" stands for "Table Changing Code". It was inspired by SQL. ==Syntax== It has a simple syntax. All of its commands are not case-sensitive. ===CREATE=== This command is use..."
15:14:53 <esowiki> [[TCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58078&oldid=58077 * A * (-4)
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19:10:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58079&oldid=58051 * Rdebath * (+331) /* It's not "The zero operator" */ new section
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22:16:10 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58080&oldid=58039 * Salpynx * (+838) Deadfish in
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00:57:02 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58081&oldid=58080 * Oerjan * (+13) /* C */ Fix bugs
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01:04:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58082 * Oerjan * (+476) /* Deadfish in */ new section
01:10:10 <HackEso> utf-8 is an encoding for humans to tell the time in symbolic processing programs.
01:10:14 <HackEso> utf-8 is an encoding for humans to tell the time in symbolic processing programs.
01:10:24 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 2 1000 1000 82 Oct 25 13:15 wisdom/utf8
01:10:45 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 2 1000 1000 82 Oct 25 13:15 wisdom/utf-8
01:11:44 <oerjan> (did int-e really make a hard link and do those work in HackEso?)
01:15:28 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
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04:17:48 <shachaf> Sgeo_: more than a week since the last olist, what's up?
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07:31:43 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/gentleworms/
07:31:44 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/gentleworms/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
07:43:35 <fizzie> I think I'm being haunted by the vengeful ghost of a smartphone.
07:43:41 <fizzie> Over the weekend, my (almost-) Pixel XL just died overnight: no signs of life, nothing happens even if left charging for hours, pressing any of the buttons for minutes does nothing, and the phone doesn't participate in USB enumeration if plugged to a computer.
07:43:48 <fizzie> Now this morning, I put the spare Nexus 5X I'd been using as a replacement into my bag at the train station, and when I took it out 20 minutes later, it was similarly dead, and so far shows no signs of life even when plugged to a charger.
07:47:30 <wob_jonas> fizzie: stupid question, but have you tried charging for an hour, then removing the charger for at least a minute, then charging for another hour, and then seeing if it gives signs of life?
07:47:50 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and obviously, checking for visible signs of damage
07:49:00 <fizzie> Not quite that formally, although I've definitely charged it for various intervals with various amounts of time in-between. Could keep doing it, I guess.
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07:49:52 <fizzie> The Pixel was just on top of a bedside table, a little hard to see how it could've gotten physically damaged. Although it is prerelease hardware, so maybe some reduced reliability is to be expected.
07:51:02 <fizzie> The 5X is a regular retail unit though.
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07:52:33 <wob_jonas> yeah, the hardware hating you can be a good explanation for this
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10:02:03 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58083&oldid=53569 * Jabutosama * (-205) Replaced content with "er"
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13:34:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shadow0133 * New user account
13:42:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58084&oldid=58036 * Shadow0133 * (+279) /* Introductions */ Add myself.
13:43:16 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58085&oldid=46747 * Shadow0133 * (+104) /* Machines */ Add Rust implementation by Shadow0133
13:44:13 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58086&oldid=58085 * Shadow0133 * (+11) /* Machines */ Small corection
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16:13:56 <fizzie> Just to correct myself, the 5X isn't totally dead. After enough messing around with the buttons, I got it to a mode where it identifies as "Product: QHSUSB__BULK" to USB and presents a ttyUSB0 serial device, which I believe is some sort of emergency low-level bootloader thing.
16:14:14 <fizzie> Nothing on screen though, and the only thing that gets printed on the serial port is "0".
16:22:05 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/dc: line 1: /usr/bin/dc: No such file or directory
16:23:14 <fizzie> Oh, that's a shame. I think I should install dc.
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19:16:58 <esowiki> [[Embedded HQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58087 * Osmarks * (+842) Created page with "'''Embedded HQ9+''' is a variant of [[HQ9+]] designed for use on embedded systems. In order to better serve common usecases for embedded devices, such as blinking LEDs, it has..."
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22:11:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58088&oldid=58082 * Salpynx * (+1505) Deadfish in response
22:18:09 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58089&oldid=58088 * Salpynx * (+4) /* Deadfish in */
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01:20:22 <zzo38> I found a "Next" web browser. It look like good idea, and I also had my own ideas of how to make a better kind of web browser program though. I don't like "If the user does not supply a protocol in a URL, https will be assumed", but I don't like http to be assumed either. I think that if the user does not specify the protocol then it should be treated as a relative URL.
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01:51:50 <lambdabot> ENVA 270150Z 12004KT CAVOK M02/M02 Q1010 RMK WIND 670FT 10007KT
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05:08:21 <zzo38> I made the Free Code of Conduct: https://arin.ga/1SLm5J Please to complain about anything that is wrong with it, in order that I can correct it.
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07:42:55 <Taneb> Well, I have a working laptop, assuming I can live without X
07:43:52 <shachaf> Who wants to read half-baked thoughts about error handling? http://slbkbs.org/ tmp/5-error-handling.txt
07:44:20 <shachaf> Minus the space because I don't want web crawlers to index it and I'm too lazy to use robots.txt
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13:36:04 <ais523> @tell wob_jonas Unicode wasn't designed with UTF-8 in mind; people would have been expecting to use UCS-2 or UTF-1 at the time, in which the first 2048 codepoints aren't anything special
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14:15:18 <lambdabot> *** "yes" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
14:15:18 <lambdabot> n 1: an affirmative; "I was hoping for a yes" [ant: {no}]
14:15:31 <ais523> hmm, wordnet thinks it's a noun
14:15:55 <ais523> and it is when it's used in that example sentence, but that isn't the most common use of it
14:35:46 <ais523> "hmm" is an interjection, isn't it?
14:35:59 <ais523> does this thing not have interjections?
14:36:02 <lambdabot> *** "hooray" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
14:36:02 <lambdabot> n 1: a victory cheer; "let's give the team a big hurrah" [syn:
14:36:24 <int-e> @google wordnet hmm
14:36:25 <lambdabot> http://www.dsic.upv.es/~fpla/ARTICLES2002/iberamia02pp69.pdf
14:36:25 <lambdabot> Title: A Hidden Markov Model Approach to word Sense Disambiguation
14:36:37 <int-e> fizzie would probably approve.
14:37:27 <lambdabot> *** "hello" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
14:37:27 <lambdabot> n 1: an expression of greeting; "every morning they exchanged
14:37:27 <lambdabot> polite hellos" [syn: {hello}, {hullo}, {hi}, {howdy}, {how-
14:37:40 <ais523> I'm not sure "hello" is the same category as "hmm"
14:38:05 <ais523> in each case, though, if Wordnet has the word at all, it's only the noun that describes an individual act of saying the word in question
14:38:47 <ais523> …now it seems strange that those words tend to be nouns, as forming a verb from them seems more natural
14:39:26 <ais523> English doesn't let you say "I yessed" even though it's a more direct construction; presumably, an act of saying "yes" would be a "yessing" or "yessation"
14:39:42 <int-e> . o O ( All this yessing and noing makes me dizzy. )
14:40:19 <ais523> doesn't that need quotes: "yes"sing and "no"ing
14:40:41 <ais523> err, I meant to use the ?: punctuation mark rather than to put the ? at the end
14:47:00 <int-e> ais523: It was intended to be wrong grammar. I'm not sure that adding quotes makes it correct.
14:47:21 <int-e> @google verbification
14:47:22 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(word_formation)
14:47:31 <ais523> oh, it seemed natural enough to me, especially in spoken English
14:51:04 <int-e> There are perfectly good verbs for this purpose: "agree" and "disagree", or "confirm" and "deny", depending on context.
14:51:42 <int-e> (besides the obvious... to say "yes" or "no")
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15:38:26 <ais523> "?:" is a punctuation mark that doesn't get enough use, really
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16:21:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Mice in a maze]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58090 * Koen * (+350) Two mice, one tape pointer?
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16:41:25 <zzo38> What is a "?:" punctuation mark? The only thing I know to use ?: is a GNU extension in C programming (which might be the GNU extension I use most often, actually).
16:48:56 <ais523> zzo38: it's when you want to ask a question but give more data afterwards
16:49:07 <ais523> like "which of these colors has the longest name?: red, green, blue"
16:49:23 <ais523> you can put the question mark at the end but that doesn't really work when the data is considerably longer than in that example
16:49:51 <ais523> I don't think it's standard yet? but it should be
16:55:09 <LKoen> did you mean?: "I don't think it's standard yet?: but it should be"
16:55:34 <ais523> that seems like a misuse of the punctuation :-D
17:01:05 <ais523> btw, I was intrigued by zzo38's suggestion that entering a protocol-less URL into a web browser should interpret the URL as relative
17:01:30 <ais523> it's a pity that most websites aren't intended to be navigated via their directory structure of URLs
17:25:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Backspace * New user account
17:26:35 <int-e> . o O ( The most annoying thing about the pumping lemma for regular languages is that there are several of them. )
17:54:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58091&oldid=58084 * Backspace * (+268) /* Introductions */
18:16:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Noisytoot * New user account
18:19:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58092&oldid=58091 * Noisytoot * (+53)
18:35:59 <esowiki> [[ROT13-Ruby]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58093 * Noisytoot * (+581) Added ROT13-Ruby
18:36:26 <esowiki> [[ROT13-Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58094&oldid=58093 * Noisytoot * (+0)
18:49:00 <esowiki> [[ROT13-Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58095&oldid=58094 * Noisytoot * (+50)
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20:10:29 <fizzie> I think I may have read that paper when I needed a word sense disambiguation approach for something. Can't remember at all what it was for.
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20:14:02 <int-e> cute: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/encryption-lava-lamps
20:14:37 <fizzie> What, no mention of Lavarand in the article at all?
20:14:54 <int-e> Somehow, no, but I found it via the lavarand wikipedia page
20:16:02 <int-e> I did not know that Landon Curt Noll was involved though... I mainly know him from IOCCC.
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20:55:34 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58096&oldid=57798 * Osmarks * (+121) Improve compiler
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21:26:28 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58097&oldid=58096 * Osmarks * (+1925) Add WHYJIT.
21:26:58 <esowiki> [[WHY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58098&oldid=58097 * Osmarks * (+14)
21:27:27 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58099&oldid=58098 * Osmarks * (+1)
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00:51:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: re utf8, that's what lifthrasiir said too, https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-10-25.html#lPb
00:52:17 <wob_jonas> it's a strange thing that we have a somewhat sane system that tries to encode every character in a single encoding, and it's historically "an afterthought"
00:53:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: "yesing" could work, but "noing" would be a bad word to use, because we'd confuse it with "knowing"
00:54:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: re punctuation, I don't think you need special punctuation, since you already have "the following" or similar in the sentence.
00:55:03 <wob_jonas> re relative URL, elinks has a special command for that, bound to the "G" key
00:59:03 <zzo38> How is that then, if it is not quite the same?
01:00:56 <wob_jonas> by the way, timezone offset change for people in Europe
01:02:06 <wob_jonas> zzo38: pressing "G" opens an input box for entering an URL, but fills it with the current URL so you can start editing that
01:10:09 <zzo38> It is different, then.
01:11:24 <wob_jonas> Yeah, that's basically just pressing control-L right in firefox
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01:13:19 <zzo38> Yes. I made the extension code to treat the location bar in Firefox as relative, so it does like that too; if after pushing control-L next key will be a cursor movement key then you can edit the existing URL (whether or not this extension is in use).
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03:15:31 <zzo38> Is there a function in GCC to specify that you don't care what value it is?
03:15:58 <shachaf> Like an explicitly uninitalized value?
03:17:41 <zzo38> Yes, or it might generate no code if it is directly assigned to something, if doing so would be more optimal, but might also initialize it if it can make a code that initializes an entire block of values at once, then it might be better to not have to copy out the old value first, are some examples
03:42:38 <shachaf> I've thought about this and I don't know of something in GCC.
03:42:54 <shachaf> Rust has std::mem::uninitialized()
03:43:13 <zzo38> Does something like ({ int x; x; }) working? Unfortunately I don't know.
03:44:42 <shachaf> I just asked a question in #gcc about statement expressions.
03:44:59 <shachaf> 20:20 <shachaf> If I have a statement expression that exits early (e.g. ({return 0;}) ), it looks like it gets assigned the type void. But I'd like it to behave more like it can have "any" type, since the value is never actually used. Can I do that?
03:45:04 <shachaf> 20:21 <shachaf> (In particular I want a macro that can take a statement expression that either yields a value or exits early.)
03:45:49 <zzo38> Yes, that would make sense I think, but maybe you can put the other type after the return
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03:46:26 <shachaf> Yes, but I want this to be convenient to write.
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03:46:54 <shachaf> MACRO(..., { 5; }); MACRO(..., { break; });
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04:34:05 <shachaf> Man, ALGOL 68 got this right.
05:03:49 <zzo38> How is ALGOL 68 doing?
05:04:09 <shachaf> I'm not sure it actually got this right.
05:04:26 <shachaf> But it has nonlocal goto, and labels can be turned into procedures that can be passed as arguments.
05:05:04 <zzo38> Such thing is sometimes helpful to have.
05:07:10 <zzo38> If you can compile the code to support multiple entry points
05:26:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know what a "macro" type thing that takes block arguments would look like?
05:26:58 <shachaf> A lot of people use lambdas, but in general they don't support early exit.
05:40:56 <zzo38> I don't quite know
06:09:06 <zzo38> Have you written any Magic: the Puzzling where it is necessary to concede?
06:09:38 <zzo38> (especially if more than once, or if multiple players need to concede, or if you have to take into account the possibility of an opponent conceding in a team game)
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09:32:39 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58100&oldid=58099 * Osmarks * (+263) More WHYJIT improvements.
09:36:18 <esowiki> [[WHY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58101&oldid=58100 * Osmarks * (+3)
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12:55:02 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58102&oldid=57864 * Weirdlang * (+4)
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13:19:43 <esowiki> [[WHY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58103&oldid=58101 * Osmarks * (+4) Fix compiler.
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14:36:08 <int-e> fungot: what's up?
14:36:09 <fungot> int-e: probably not though. :) it was only in one fnord hacking session, iirc. i am all, that results in f being returned
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15:10:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: back some time ago I asked some rules questions on how conceding in M:tG works. I think there might be some traces on this channel logs too, but I'm not sure.
15:11:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: one particular case I was interested in is when you concede while an opponent is casting Hex, before he selected the targets, and since your permanents are removed when you concede, he won't have enough creatures to target.
15:11:15 <wob_jonas> The question was what gets reverted as casting Hex is undone.
15:12:01 <wob_jonas> Eventually I decided that while the rules might define how this works, this is one of the few things I'd really want to houserule, to make conceding work saner.
15:12:07 <zzo38> I think conceding is not reverted but all of the other stuff is.
15:12:26 <wob_jonas> Not for practical reasons, but more for theoretical reasons that is,
15:12:41 <wob_jonas> to make the rules easier to understand from a rules engine point.
15:13:33 <wob_jonas> This isn't something that's come up in practical games, especially as it turns out that the rules say that if you concede, then all your teammates concede too, so any of our 2v2 games end when someone concede.
15:14:36 <zzo38> That only applies in two headed giant game.
15:14:47 <zzo38> It does not apply to Team vs Team.
15:15:27 <wob_jonas> I'm really bad at multiplayer rules
15:16:09 <wob_jonas> it took us years before we started to even play Oblivion Ring correctly (when you leave the game, the permanent removed by an Oblivion Ring or similar isn't returned to play)
15:16:29 <wob_jonas> despite that O-Ring and similar permanents were played a lot in our decks
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15:19:07 <zzo38> Which team variant do you play? If you play Two Headed Giant then you are correct that it ends immediately if only one player concede, otherwise, it doesn't.
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15:20:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, you're right. that only applies to two-headed giant indeed
15:20:45 <wob_jonas> no, we don't play two-headed giant
15:21:20 <wob_jonas> we play vanilla four player two teams of two, with the default attack rules (in each attack phase you choose which player to attack), with a few houserules:
15:22:23 <wob_jonas> the players of a team sit opposite of each other, not in front; they should try not to communicate in secret during the game (this is loosely defined, since they can communicate in secret in advance);
15:23:13 <wob_jonas> the player that's first to play draws one card less at the start; we play matches of one games so no sideboard stuff (this isn't really a houserule);
15:23:31 <wob_jonas> those are definitely the most important ones
15:24:33 <wob_jonas> definitely no two-headed giant rules, so every player gets 20 life with separate life totals, no commander rules
15:24:47 <zzo38> That is like Alternating Teams variant without rule 811.2b and 800.6
15:25:26 <wob_jonas> "Alternating Teams"? since when was that a rule? /me checks
15:26:06 <zzo38> Rule 811.2a is not used here either, although it is not relevant it look like
15:26:41 <zzo38> However, note that if you do not use any of the multiplayer options for combat, which player you attack is decided during the begin combat step, rather than the attack step. (This means it is possible to do stuff in between.)
15:27:20 <wob_jonas> hmm... I'm not sure how exactly we played that, but yes, that's probably right about start of combat
15:27:48 <zzo38> Since it is 2 vs 2, rule 811.2a and 811.4 are not applicable. All of your opponents are going to be seated next to you.
15:29:09 <wob_jonas> ugh no, I'd never use "limited range of influence". that's the most horrible abomination in the rules. I don't think it would ever possible to get sane rules while using it nontrivially.
15:29:30 <wob_jonas> that one is for drunken parties, not for (mostly) mathematicians playing M:tG
15:29:47 <wob_jonas> mind you, playing them in their free time to turn their minds off, not for puzzles or anything
15:29:59 <wob_jonas> that's why I like M:tG, not chess or bridge or go
15:31:33 <HackEso> Master Warcraft \ 2(r/w)(r/w) \ Instant \ Cast this spell only before attackers are declared. \ You choose which creatures attack this turn. \ You choose which creatures block this turn and how those creatures block. \ RAV-R, CMD-R, CMA-R
15:32:25 <zzo38> Yes, I don't like "limited range of influence" either, but it is not applicable if you are playing only 2 vs 2, because the range of influence is 2 left and 2 right, and there are only 4 players so everyone is in your range of influence, so range of influence is not applicable.
15:34:27 <wob_jonas> when we're not playing 2v2, we're playing duel, or sometimes used to play 1v1v1 but that always got too long and boring, or once tried archenemy
15:34:53 <wob_jonas> limited roi or alternating opponents isn't applicable to those
15:36:43 <wob_jonas> if we have five people, then one sits out or watches the game or assists a player, because there's no sane game mode we want to play with 5 players, and enough things to do (rearrange decks, eat etc) to not get the party boring with 5 people
15:37:09 <wob_jonas> it's 3 people that's the big problem
15:38:08 <wob_jonas> we try to avoid that by organizing M:tG on dates where we have at least four people who can come; otherwise play other board games of 3
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15:43:57 <zzo38> There are other card games for five players, such as Napoleon (which is a card game designed for five players, in teams of two and three or one and four, but you bid like in bridge and then the declarer names a card and whoever holds that card is his partner, but only that player knows who it is until the named card is played)
15:44:29 <wob_jonas> sure, and other board games too. but five people was never a problem for M:tG.
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18:56:46 <zzo38> Do you like so far the class/image selection menu recently implemented in Free Hero Mesh? It is not quite finish yet though; the selection does not actually do anything yet once it is selected, although you can select them.
19:55:32 <int-e> TIL that ghc does fixity resolution after splicing template haskell expressions... how do I unsee that mess :)
20:01:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OdinSmodin * New user account
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20:14:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58104&oldid=58092 * OdinSmodin * (+196) /* Introductions */
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20:52:28 <HackEso> reconcyl_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:13:53 <wob_jonas> Christmas shopping season is coming. Let's target people with small children who'll buy anything for their children, whether they need it or not. I think this year we should sell baby scales and baby body thermometers with labels like "certified for the updated SI units of measure of 2019".
22:15:53 <zzo38> What are the updated SI units of measure of 2019?
22:16:15 <wob_jonas> Oh, and they're both battery-powered, so on the battery slot, put a big warning that you must use batteries with voltage certified for the updated SI units too.
22:17:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: most of them. the kilogram, the ampere, the mole, the kelvin, and the candela. but none of that actually matters for a baby thermometer or scale or battery obviously.
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22:18:08 <wob_jonas> The meter and the second also get new definitions but the change there is only cosmetic to clean up the wording.
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22:20:44 <zzo38> What is the old definition and what is it being changed to?
22:20:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I really don't understand the details.
22:21:11 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_redefinition_of_SI_base_units has some info, but still
22:22:02 <wob_jonas> the point is, obviously, that the values try not to change, but the people in charge are more sure that they'll be able to consistently reproduce the standard at high precision with the new definitions
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22:22:18 <zzo38> It is good at least that kilogram is change; the old way doesn't makes sense.
22:22:48 <zzo38> And, yes, I do expect the values will not change significantly (if at all), of course.
22:23:07 <wob_jonas> the change is within the uncertainty of reproducing the old values
22:23:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:23:33 <wob_jonas> what I don't understand is how the new definitions work
22:23:42 <wob_jonas> not really the definitions, but how they're reproducible
22:24:00 <wob_jonas> as in, what are the different high precision measurements and how they combine
22:30:16 <zzo38> I don't know either, although it looks like good to me, although I do think the old way of kilogram is no sense so is good they correct the definition of kilogram at least to a much better one.
22:31:09 <wob_jonas> it's ... complicated. I understood some of it, then gave up
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22:33:20 <wob_jonas> luckily the extra precision for the kilogram and ampere and mole won't matter for me
22:34:47 <zzo38> I like that they are making a better definition of kilogram, but the rest I don't care as much
22:35:01 <wob_jonas> yes, but they're all connected, I think
22:35:54 <wob_jonas> that's why I don't understand them
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22:38:03 <zzo38> I also don't like the word "tonne" (also called "metric ton") and prefer "megagram". (Either way it is defined as 1000 kg)
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22:50:38 <esowiki> [[JarJarScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58105 * OdinSmodin * (+294) A work in progress, JarJarScrIpt. Where all code is Jar Jar Binks' grammer.
22:55:18 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58106&oldid=58004 * OdinSmodin * (+76) My work in progress language, JarJarScript.
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23:54:57 <zzo38> I looked at the document of NNTP, and it look mostly OK although there is some problem. One problem is that it is not Y2K compliant. Another is that some cases seem to be unclear how it is supposed to work. Other than that it look like OK
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01:56:13 <moony> I can now type Ørjan's name properly.
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03:04:42 <zzo38> I thought to implement a NNTP server program using SQLite database to store the data, although, it seem problem to me that the protocol is not Y2K compliant, isn't it?
03:08:03 <zzo38> How can we deal with this?
03:43:27 <Sgeo> What do currently existing NNTP server programs do today? They still exist, right?
03:46:47 <zzo38> I don't know, unfortunately. Correcting the protocol seems easily enough, but if you want to work with existing clients I do not know what to do about that.
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06:34:13 <zzo38> Can you encode Fermat's Last Theorem into Magic: the Gathering?
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14:13:48 <moony_> out of curiosity, does Ørjan ping him?
14:14:15 <oerjan> not in irc, but in logreading i grep for rjan
14:14:21 <moony_> I'll take that as a yəß
14:14:45 * moony_ goes back to composing keys
14:14:48 <oerjan> so i was just seeing your earlier comment
14:14:59 <lambdabot> ENVA 291350Z 13010KT CAVOK 02/M07 Q1029 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15014KT
14:15:25 <oerjan> except without snow so far
14:15:27 * moony_ is in texas, and is finally no longer boiling alive
14:16:55 <oerjan> we rarely have this problem in norway.
14:20:25 <oerjan> that's the highest temperature ever registered in norway
14:21:08 <oerjan> that was in 1970. just 8 days before i was born, incidentally
14:22:41 <myname> i like that it's called insanetemp
14:22:56 <oerjan> the city of trondheim (where i am) apparently had 35.0 once, in 1901.
14:23:00 <moony_> Texas reached 120F in 1994.
14:23:23 <myname> out pathfinder party always refers to foot as "retard"
14:24:05 <oerjan> (he was six retards tall)
14:24:16 <moony_> myname: retard units. Sounds good to me.
14:24:31 <moony_> Feet suck anyways. SI > all
14:24:59 <oerjan> technically HackEso may also have f2c and c2f defined, i think someone added those who didn't know about the older ones.
14:25:12 <moony_> what happened to HackEgo, anyways?
14:25:17 <oerjan> there's also frink, although does that work after the move...
14:25:29 <HackEso> /hackenv/lib/frink: error while loading shared libraries: libgcj.so.12: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
14:25:38 * Taneb is slightly over 6 light-nanoseconds tall
14:25:59 <moony_> Taneb: please invent the perfect unit of measurement
14:26:31 <oerjan> moony_: the cloud-at-cost server hosting it crashed and didn't come up again
14:26:56 <oerjan> given that isp's reputation, it survived surprisingly many years before it happened.
14:27:26 <Taneb> (a light nanosecond is a smidge under a foot)
14:27:40 <Taneb> Hmm, smidge is a good name for the perfect unit of measurement
14:27:47 <moony_> what's the definition of a smidg- ok
14:28:26 <oerjan> moony_: HackEso has the same hg repository as HackEgo did (possibly missing some days), but the surrounding linux system doesn't have the same installed programs so some things have broken
14:28:37 <Taneb> moony_: 1 smidge is the distance light travels in a vacuum during a single period of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom
14:28:49 <moony_> Taneb: so the new SI units
14:28:58 <Taneb> It's about 2 inches
14:29:12 <Taneb> 1.28 inches, apparently
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14:44:03 <moony__> oerjan: dumb question of the day: Is MediaWiki markup turing complete
14:44:48 <FaerieFly> I want to say this has been brought up before
14:45:21 <int-e> oerjan: I think I may have come up with the perfect thought bubble for you, with moony's assistance, of course.
14:45:35 <FaerieFly> https://web.archive.org/web/20131027001211/http://mentalpolyphonics.com/posts/wikimedia-proves-greenspuns-tenth-law
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14:46:46 <fizzie> I can install the libgcj package, but it'll be named libgcj.so.12, so if that frink binary is referring directly to libgcj.so.12, it's not going to work.
14:47:06 <fizzie> `` ldd -v lib/frink | paste
14:47:07 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.26915
14:47:15 <ais523> moony: MediaWiki has no way to write an infinite loop (unless you use Lua); this is intentional and blocks the TCness. However, if you add a looping construct, it's TC: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
14:48:18 <oerjan> moony__: as FaerieFly says, although i don't know it enough to say for sure, although isn't there some loop prevention in templates that might ruin it?
14:48:38 <moony__> oerjan: loop prevention is toggleable last i checked.
14:48:41 <fizzie> ...Chrome wants to translate the repository browser from Welsh to English...
14:48:42 <moony__> and previously didn't exist
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14:49:17 <moony__> ais523: YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGED.
14:49:46 * moony__ hopes ais523 isn't wearing reflective armor
14:50:02 <ais523> CFJ is me, though, and I wouldn't smite myself
14:50:52 <ais523> anyway, recursive template substitution isn't enough for TCness simply because it isn't actually recursive, MediaWiki detects recursion and blocks it
14:52:25 <ais523> if you allow it then you directly have untyped lambda calculus, which is obviously TC
14:52:48 <ais523> as you don't have closures
14:53:01 <ais523> the "apply A to B" operation only works when A is a litieral
14:54:44 <ais523> hmm, back in 2006 I was more literal about specifically how I was showing something TC
14:55:31 -!- moony__ has changed nick to ynoom.
14:55:36 <ais523> nowadays I often just say things like "this language embeds Thue" in the hope that everyone reading it who cares will know what I mean
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14:57:52 * int-e wants an `xkcdlist because the updates are so unpredictable (where is the Monday comic?!).
14:59:59 <ais523> oh, I thought I'd misremembered the schedule
15:00:09 <ais523> presumably if it's late, that means it's taking longer to make than most
15:09:50 <HackEso> \ (.:53): Gtk-[1;33mWARNING[0m **: cannot open display:
15:09:56 <fizzie> That's as far as I got.
15:10:10 <fizzie> Maybe there's some GCJ flag to compile it right that I'm missing.
15:10:52 <ais523> that looks to me like it's trying to open a GUI
15:12:07 <fizzie> I think maybe it needs a custom main class to act as a command-line thing.
15:12:17 <fizzie> The one specified in the jar's manifest is frink.gui.SwingInteractivePanel, which does sound pretty GUI-y.
15:12:31 <fizzie> (I was assuming it'd just run headless when given the "-e ..." arg.)
15:15:39 <fizzie> "To run the jar file in text mode (only), use:
15:15:41 <fizzie> java -cp frink.jar frink.parser.Frink"
15:17:01 <HackEso> 2500/381 (approx. 6.561679790026247)
15:17:42 <int-e> what's this, a portmanteau of fringe and brink?
15:18:18 <int-e> (but it looks more like yet another `units' program)
15:19:13 <int-e> ynoom: http://paste.debian.net/1049580/
15:19:36 <int-e> `` units 2m ft # does this work?
15:19:48 <fizzie> int-e: It's https://frinklang.org/ and I think it's pretty dead these days.
15:20:10 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: perl6: not found
15:20:11 <HackEso> * 137.89515 \ / 0.0072518869
15:20:30 <ynoom> fizzie: could you install rakudo-star or something? The default timelimits are too short for me to install it i think.
15:20:32 <HackEso> 2527 units, 72 prefixes, 56 nonlinear units \ \ You have:
15:20:51 <int-e> oh, wow, that took a while.
15:21:02 <ynoom> ..yea time limit is too short
15:21:11 <ynoom> no linux binaries avaliable, have to build from source
15:21:16 <int-e> because it's interactive, so it's killed by the timeout.
15:21:34 <ynoom> what HackEso is worst at: compiling things
15:21:48 <ynoom> `fetch https://rakudo.perl6.org/downloads/star/rakudo-star-2018.06.tar.gz
15:21:51 <HackEso> 2018-10-29 15:21:49 URL:https://rakudo.perl6.org/downloads/star/rakudo-star-2018.06.tar.gz [15825981/15825981] -> "rakudo-star-2018.06.tar.gz" [1]
15:22:10 <ynoom> `` tar xfz rakudo-star-2018.06.tar.gz
15:22:25 <fizzie> Please do that sort of thing in tmp/
15:22:38 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ rakudo-star-2018.06 \ rakudo-star-2018.06.tar.gz \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
15:22:52 <ynoom> `` mv rakudo-star-2018.06 tmp/
15:22:58 <HackEso> mv: cannot move 'rakudo-star-2018.06' to 'tmp/rakudo-star-2018.06': Directory not empty
15:22:59 <HackEso> paste \ rakudo-star-2018.06 \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ UnicodeData.txt
15:23:16 <int-e> I hope that undid the tar xfz
15:23:20 <ynoom> you'd think i'd be good with the terminal now, i've used linux for nearly a year
15:23:39 <fizzie> tmp/ is a little unintuitive at the best of times.
15:23:49 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ rakudo-star-2018.06.tar.gz \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
15:24:04 * ynoom goes to remember how to use tar
15:24:29 <fizzie> `` ls tmp/rakudo-star-2018.06
15:24:30 <HackEso> build_msi.bat \ Configure.pl \ docs \ LICENSE \ MANIFEST \ MoarVM \ modules \ nqp \ patches \ ports \ rakudo \ README \ tools
15:24:34 <fizzie> It's uncompressed in there now.
15:24:39 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/quotes
15:24:41 <ais523> ynoom: x to extract / c to create, f to use a file as the tarball (rather than a tape drive)
15:24:59 <ais523> you can add a letter to specify what sort of compression's in use but when extracting, it's typically autodetected anyway
15:25:09 <ais523> and you can add v to show the progress by printing out filenames
15:25:13 <ynoom> `` cd tmp/rakudo-star-2018.06; perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --make-install --prefix ~/bin/rakudo
15:25:15 <HackEso> ERROR \ \ Can't compile simple C program. \ Failing command: gcc -o try.o -c try.c 2>&1 \ Error: No such file or directory \ \ Cannot continue after this error. \ On linux, maybe you need something like 'sudo apt-get install build-essential'. \ On macOS, maybe you need to install XCode and accept the XCode EULA. \ Command failed (status 512): /usr/bin/perl Configure.pl --optimize --prefix=/tmp/bin/rakudo --make-install \ \ Configuring and b
15:25:17 <ais523> that's about it in terms of common uses of tar
15:25:40 <ais523> so normally it'd be "tar xf tarball.tgz" or "tar czf tarball.tgz file1.c file2.c"
15:25:50 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: gcc: command not found
15:25:57 <int-e> fizzie: if you want to prune the repo, you still have a chance.
15:26:06 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: clang: command not found
15:26:10 <int-e> `culprits bin/frink
15:26:20 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gcc: not found
15:26:23 <int-e> `culprits lib/frink
15:28:03 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, I sort of expected that to break.
15:28:30 <int-e> it's okay, nitia has been pretty lonely :)
15:28:38 <int-e> now they have three new friends
15:29:42 <fizzie> int-e: I updated the checked-out copy to the revision before the fetch, which I *think* will make it forget those commits after that.
15:29:43 <fizzie> Whoops, I'll need to run to a meeting now.
15:29:51 <fizzie> Don't break everything while I'm gone.
15:30:07 * ynoom 0's out everything's permissions
15:30:42 <int-e> we've been there, it was a mess
15:30:53 <int-e> as I believe you already know
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15:38:36 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gcc: not found
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15:42:26 <oren> https://i.redd.it/x9triplll1v11.jpg
15:42:31 <oren> sub stalinSort {my$x=$_[0];map$x>$_?():($x=$_),@_}
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15:43:57 <ais523> oren: I think that's more commonly called dropsort
15:44:16 <ais523> I implemented it in 5 bytes in two different languages recently: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/61808/lossy-sorting-implement-dropsort/170910#170910
15:48:41 <int-e> > foldr (\x -> (x:) . filter (x <=)) [] [1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4]
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15:49:56 <int-e> > nubBy (>) [1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4]
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17:17:19 <oerjan> <int-e> TIL that ghc does fixity resolution after splicing template haskell expressions... how do I unsee that mess :) <-- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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18:57:19 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gcc: not found
18:57:35 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/cc: 2: /hackenv/bin/cc: gcc: not found
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18:59:21 * moony_ doesn't recognize ineiros
18:59:28 <HackEso> ineiros: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:02:21 <fizzie> They've been lurking here for ages.
19:02:29 <fizzie> But of course there's no wrong use of relcome.
19:04:57 <HackEso> gcc (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1) 6.3.0 20170516 \ Copyright (C) 2016 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
19:05:43 <HackEso> paste \ rakudo-star-2018.06 \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ UnicodeData.txt
19:06:04 <moony_> `` cd tmp/rakudo-star-2018.06; perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --make-install --prefix ~/bin/rakudo
19:06:21 <moony_> will it time out? No-body knows until up to 2 minutes from now
19:06:48 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'bin/rakudo': No such file or directory
19:07:09 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
19:07:15 <HackEso> paste \ rakudo-star-2018.06 \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ UnicodeData.txt
19:07:40 <moony_> `` cd tmp/rakudo-star-2018.06; perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --make-install --prefix /bin/rakudo
19:08:12 <HackEso> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
19:08:21 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/bin/rakudo': No such file or directory
19:08:29 <HackEso> paste \ rakudo-star-2018.06 \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ UnicodeData.txt
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19:10:09 <zzo38> ``` sqlite3 -version
19:10:10 <HackEso> bash: sqlite3: command not found
19:10:26 <zzo38> You should add the latest version of SQLite into HackEso, I think.
19:10:50 <zzo38> (It should be easy to install, since it is only one file.)
19:11:51 <zzo38> (You should also put gcc, which seem to be missing, but probably should be on)
19:12:02 <HackEso> [01m[Kgcc:[m[K [01;31m[Kfatal error: [m[Kno input files \ compilation terminated.
19:12:47 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: perl6: not found
19:13:03 <shachaf> What a difference an underscore makes.
19:15:50 <fizzie> moony_: If the Debian package rakudo (2016.12-1) is good enough for your purposes, I could install that from apt. This is Debian stable, though, so it's a little old.
19:16:05 <HackEso> 3.16.2 2017-01-06 16:32:41 a65a62893ca8319e89e48b8a38cf8a59c69a8209
19:16:18 <zzo38> That is a old version of SQLite.
19:16:31 <moony_> fizzie: i don't think perl 6 can be installed the way i'm trying to do. Either that or i'm fucking it up horribly. You mind doing it? https://perl6.org/downloads/. Also, latest perl6 is generally best
19:16:33 <zzo38> The latest version is 3.25.2
19:17:00 <moony_> (Seriously, old perl 6 is slow haha)
19:19:42 <moony_> https://nxadm.github.io/rakudo-pkg/ is also an option, it provides more up to date prebuilt binaries
19:21:40 <fizzie> I can give building it a go, but if it doesn't go cleanly, I'm not going to spend time poking at it.
19:22:19 <moony_> rakudo-pkg shuld be up to date tho
19:22:35 <moony_> so it'll work, i just forgot about it. (Can't do it myself tho, it has to be added to your package repo list)
19:36:37 <moony_> fizzie: did it work, or am i being impatient
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19:38:23 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | dc -e "1k0 1?*9*5/32+p"
19:38:26 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $c=0+$ARGV[0]; printf"%.2f°C = %.2f°F",$c,$c*9/5+32;
19:38:28 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $f=0+$ARGV[0]; printf"%.2f°F = %.2f°C",$f,($f-32)*5/9;
19:38:38 <fizzie> Runs out of memory while building.
19:38:38 <fizzie> Won't have time for more right now, at work.
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19:42:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: xkcd still posts every monday, wednesday, and friday, it just usually posts very late in those days, whereas years ago it used to post early
19:42:23 <wob_jonas> also, the comics got mostly pretty boring, so who cares
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19:46:43 <wob_jonas> "ynoom: x to extract / c to create, f to use a file as the tarball" (and two more lines of tar help) => I'd add that if you're running tar as root, then (--no-same-permissions --no-same-owner) stops tar from trying to restore owner and mode; and that (--no-recursion --null -T "$listfile") lets you explicitly give a list of files to compress, nul-te
19:46:57 <wob_jonas> I've used options other than those, but the rest are pretty crazy
19:48:07 <wob_jonas> also t instead of x to print filenames, tv to print filenames and attributes in ls format
19:48:43 <wob_jonas> I tried to install 7za onto HackEgo once, but failed
19:48:58 <moony_> I'll compile a copy of perl6 for HackEso directly myself then
19:49:01 <wob_jonas> I wanted it for fetching an archive and decompressing it
19:49:23 <wob_jonas> oh, and I used the -C option often
19:49:25 <zzo38> I used the options x c t --ignore-failed-read --numeric-owner -S (the last three only for making backups, though)
19:49:53 <moony_> `fetch https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases/download/v2018.10/rakudo-pkg-Debian9_2018.10-01_amd64.deb
19:49:57 <HackEso> 2018-10-29 19:49:56 URL:https://github-production-release-asset-2e65be.s3.amazonaws.com/66966577/4a6af880-db93-11e8-8126-0d480a815d0c?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWNJYAX4CSVEH53A%2F20181029%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20181029T194954Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Signature=f654365ac26c786cb4b276e3f5ecc201f59fbbac96b64868bb2c302578cb4b0d&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&actor_id=0&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20file
19:50:03 <wob_jonas> to cd before reading files to add or writing extracted files, but after opening the archive given for the -f argument
19:50:06 <moony_> fizzie: That should work, actually. Try installing that.
19:57:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you compress the tarball then?
19:57:19 <zzo38> Yes, I did then compress it, and store the compressed file on a DVD.
19:58:19 <zzo38> (That is, for the backups)
19:58:45 <zzo38> And actually for the backups I used three DVDs, one for /var, one for /home, and one for everything else.
20:06:02 <zzo38> What do you suggest for setting up my own NNTP server for Unusenet?
20:06:20 <wob_jonas> I've no idea, I never used usenet.
20:06:38 <wob_jonas> Like, here I am on IRC, but usenet is alien past technology to me.
20:06:58 <moony_> wob_jonas: google has a public usenet interface built into google+
20:07:23 <wob_jonas> moony_: the same google+ that they're discontinuing about now?
20:07:29 <moony_> any usenet url, for example rec.games
20:08:30 <moony_> esoteric stuff might hide out somewhere in comp.*
20:08:52 <wob_jonas> moony_: and there are other web mirrors, and some two-way mailing list gateways too I think
20:09:21 <wob_jonas> I've used those, I guess, just not usenet directly
20:10:24 <zzo38> NNTP also is not Y2K compliant. Correcting the protocol is easy enough to do, although I don't know if it needs to deal with non-Y2K-compliant clients somehow. Maybe, if the server is only Unusenet and not Usenet, since Unusenet was invented after AD 2000, and it is still early in the century, it may be unimportant to do that.
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20:13:34 <zzo38> It could treat two digit years as being after NNTP was invented, so that existing clients would work, I guess. Maybe some clients might improperly specify "118" for the year, but it is easily enough to deal with that too
20:14:38 <wob_jonas> what if people have copied archives of pre-usenet messages to usenet with the original date?
20:15:27 <zzo38> The "Date" MIME header is Y2K compliant, although date ranges in the NNTP protocol aren't.
20:15:38 <zzo38> So, I think it isn't relevant.
20:19:45 <zzo38> Is there NNTP server software that uses a SQLite database? Should I write such a software?
20:23:16 <zzo38> Will you set up a NNTP server at esolangs.org?
20:30:02 <fizzie> I don't know. I have a feeling the audience might be a little limited. The web forum never got any traffic to speak of, and the mailing list died too.
20:30:22 <fizzie> I used to run Leafnode at home. I think I might also have experimented with INN, though of course not connected to Usenet.
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20:31:53 <zzo38> What did you do with INN?
20:32:38 <oren> I always get confused between the acronyms ICYMI and IASIP
20:33:41 <fizzie> zzo38: If I remember right, I hosted a set of groups for a group of friends. I don't remember what they were *about*, though.
20:33:51 <fizzie> I think it might've been for a fake standardization organization?
20:34:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: just to make sure, in M:tG you haven't downloaded the oracle database from the New Gatherer or Scryfall or anywhere else yet, right?
20:35:11 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That is correct, although I might do some time, maybe.
20:35:18 <zzo38> (I have downloaded all of the rules though)
20:35:52 <fizzie> Yeah, I think we called it IOCTA, but I don't remember what it stood for. Grepping through old logs finds just one line (from 2003) where I mention that I don't remember what it stands for.
20:36:51 <zzo38> fizzie: Unusenet is a way to define standardized hierarchies and enables mirroring of non-Usenet newsgroups.
20:37:21 <fizzie> Well, the IOCTA newsgroups (if that's what I used INN for) are long defunct, unfortunately.
20:38:00 <zzo38> They were probably compliant with neither Usenet nor Unusenet anyways, I think?
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20:39:12 <wob_jonas> I think I'll have to try to download their data even if I don't process them, just so I have an archive of the current state for reference.
20:39:25 <zzo38> Yes, that may be good
20:39:34 <fizzie> My former university had a relatively lively non-Usenet (and non-Unusenet) newsgroup hierarchy, but I think those have been turned down.
20:48:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: argh! New Gatherer is terrible. they still can't make their software handle flip/split/transform/meld cards properly. Even if I download just the whole list of c. 190 pages with 100 cards per pages in the standard format, then it probably won't tell which cards transform to what, it only shows faces.
20:49:17 <wob_jonas> The individual card pages do tell, but I don't want to download all 19000 of those.
20:50:02 <wob_jonas> So that data will have to be reconstructed after the fact, hoping that it will be very rare that the name or transform pairing of a card changes.
20:50:28 <wob_jonas> There's a lot of heuristics you can use to check, but still.
20:51:05 <wob_jonas> I'll try download anyway, but I'll have to check scryfall later too.
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21:02:38 <zzo38> If they do somehow change the name, the multiverse ID number still should be same, hopefully
21:03:19 <zzo38> (Although there will be a multiverse ID number for each printing of the card)
21:04:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, the multiverse ID number seems to be adjacent
21:04:21 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean if they change the name of the card?
21:04:33 <wob_jonas> dunno, I wouldn't rely on that, since they can scrub that by simply making a New New Oracle
21:04:44 <wob_jonas> the card names are more stable than their fucking websites
21:04:50 <wob_jonas> they only changed names like three times
21:05:52 <zzo38> Yes, if they change the name, the multiverse ID number probably won't change I expect. If they do change it, it might no longer be called "multiverse ID", since I think it was based on software previously called Multiverse but they changed it, so if they change the ID numbers they will change that too I guess (but of course I do not actually know)
21:06:28 <wob_jonas> the name changes were, let's see, all cards with Æ recently, Ærathi Berserker before written history, and I can't think of any other but there might be one
21:06:56 <wob_jonas> there were probably changes for how they displayed flip/split cards, and the visible name in the Oracle may have changed at that point
21:08:00 <zzo38> (Changing the ID numbers would also break many links on other webpages)
21:08:24 <wob_jonas> um so? it's not like Wizards cares about that
21:08:38 <wob_jonas> they took off an entire fucking discussion forum that was full of useful M:tG stuff
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21:11:41 <zzo38> Yes, but I still expect if they do change it, the old links will link to an error message rather than the wrong card.
21:14:08 <wob_jonas> hmm... I'll have to check the last page before and after the download to make sure that they haven't added any new cards during my download
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21:20:17 <rdococ> experimenting with hypothetical reified "memory addresses", in the form of "memory" objects that you can write to, access the value at and "add" "offsets" in the form of other objects to
21:21:24 <rdococ> e.g. "v" is a unique "memory", "v ← expr" assigns the value of the expression to "v", and "$v" reads the value at that memory
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21:28:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm starting a download of those c. 190 pages of New Gatherer now. I won't do Scryfall today.
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21:30:29 <wob_jonas> I'll try to do some basic parsing, just to reduce the data, but I won't do any complicated processing like identifying errors or messing with split/flip/transform/meld cards
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22:37:47 <moony> fizzie, did you try the dpkg? (Sorry for consistently bothering you)
23:07:54 <HackEso> olist 1145: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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23:33:11 <moony> Sgeo, ty for what?
23:33:12 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: perl6: not found
23:33:13 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: perl6: not found
23:33:45 <Sgeo> moony, I apparently misread shachaf's line as coming from you
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23:56:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh great. so the New Gatherer html output starts with '<?xml ' but is not in fact valid XML. I'll have to use a HTML parser.
23:58:15 <wob_jonas> good thing I know how to use an HTML parser, I've done it several times
00:30:34 <quintopi1> so who is plaing 7 Billion Humans?
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00:36:12 <oerjan> oh, now the logs switch date one hour earlier in my timezone
00:36:32 <oerjan> (i thought i'd only have one page to check)
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01:36:28 <moony> quintopia, haven't got it
01:36:34 <moony> i want to get Marble It Up! first anyways
01:36:58 <moony> because HOLY FUCK ITS A SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR TO ONE OF MY ALL TIME FAVORITE GAMES AAAAA
01:37:12 <moony> i golf x86-64 for fun
01:37:26 <moony> i'm half worried 7 billion humans might be a tad easy 🤔
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01:39:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://arin.ga/QXWqQD/raw has the names and type lines and editions (with multiverse id) from all cards in New Gatherer. I'll parse the mana costs and rules texts and everything else there is (and add some explanatory notes at the beginning) later.
01:42:42 <wob_jonas> note though that while this has Un-cards, it does not have Schemes or Planes (and maybe a few other card types too), because Gatherer by default doesn't search for those. TODO for self: download those too
01:43:48 <zzo38> I downloaded it. It is possible to tell Gatherer to search for schemes, planes, phenomena, conspiracies, vanguards, too.
01:44:00 <wob_jonas> the Planes and Schemes and Phenomenons actually in New Gatherer, it's just set to not search them by default
01:44:14 <wob_jonas> there's actually a checkbox at the bottom to "Include special items (e.g. Planes, Schemes)"
01:45:51 <wob_jonas> I'll try to redo the download that way
01:46:23 <zzo38> When you make the file including the full texts then you should include the special items (command-only cards) too.
01:50:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: definitely. I've started the download. it's c. 190 pages of 100 cards now.
01:50:56 <wob_jonas> I'll parse everything that's easily visible from the HTML, but I won't do extra miles now to try to figure out the things that aren't in there, most importantly the flip/split/transform/meld pairings
01:52:38 <wob_jonas> but for now I just want to have a snapshot by downloading only the 190 list pages, rather than the 19000 individual card pages (or even worse, the much more card edition pages), in a way that's repeatable every three months
01:53:34 <zzo38> And then I can try to convert the text file into a SQLite database too
01:53:59 <wob_jonas> so I won't have eg. collector numbers or printed texts for each edition
01:54:31 <wob_jonas> at some point later I might try to do the more complicated stuff of trying to figure out all the pairings too
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01:54:41 <wob_jonas> but I might just not do that and believe what Scryfall says
01:54:52 <wob_jonas> they seem to have done a good work, but an independent confirmation would be nice
01:55:16 <wob_jonas> I want to download Scryfall's database anyway, the text part that is, not all the high-res images
01:55:41 <wob_jonas> but don't hold your breath, if you want to download it, you'll probably be able to do it first
01:56:54 <zzo38> Yes, maybe, I might make a program to download the JSON data, with the delays that Scryfall specifies
01:57:06 <wob_jonas> hehe, they have separate list entries for each of the Unstable cards with different cards under the same English name, to be able to display the different rules text
01:57:21 <wob_jonas> seriously, they fix that, but not the transform cards?
01:57:45 <zzo38> Did you tell them to fix the transform cards?
01:58:05 <wob_jonas> I think I told them to fix the *flip* cards at some point
01:58:47 <wob_jonas> but the Gatherer support isn't easy to reach. feel free to try, at least if you investigate how exactly those things are broken:
01:58:59 <zzo38> After that, we can try to also convert the card texts into AST with RDF. It may be possible to partially automate but some things will have to be entered manually.
01:59:32 <zzo38> (For example, to change "Counter target spell" into [:counter [:target :spell]] and so on)
01:59:47 <wob_jonas> note that at some point flip cards showed up in at least two different ways depending on the card, and at some point, a transform card whose front face has no mana cost (because it's a land) showed up wrong
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02:00:04 <wob_jonas> oh, this list has the Vanguards too
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02:02:35 <wob_jonas> yeah, flip cards still seem to show up in two different ways: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[flip]&block=+[%22Kamigawa%20Block%22]
02:04:57 <moony> [:counter [:target :spell]]
02:05:00 <moony> is that lisp or something
02:05:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you happen to know if all non-meld transform cards have "transform" or "transformed" on their front face?
02:06:15 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of that question.
02:06:30 <wob_jonas> ok, I'll probably have to double-check that from scryfall then
02:06:30 <zzo38> moony: No, the syntax is RDF.
02:07:11 <wob_jonas> if I had a rule to find all transform cards with some false positives, then I could download the individual card pages for those transform cards from New Gatherer, and find transform pairs that way
02:07:30 <wob_jonas> obviously I have to do the same with meld cards too, but there's only like three pairs of those
02:07:30 <zzo38> Yes, that could work, I suppose
02:07:43 <wob_jonas> and I'm quite sure the meld cards have rules text that I can find
02:09:13 <zzo38> moony: It is effectively _:1 when you also have _:1 :counter _:2. _:2 :target :spell. except that _:1 and _:2 are now anonymous.
02:09:51 * moony goes back to FORTH
02:10:51 <moony> ...Has someone implemented brainfuck in Dwarf Fortress yet?
02:11:03 <moony> the game's already known to be TC, so where's my Brainfuck Fortress
02:11:25 <zzo38> I don't know. If someone else didn't, do you know how?
02:11:52 <moony> I know how, but it'll take far too long for my attention span haha
02:12:05 <moony> it involves minecarts, water, and a lot of things that don't make any sense
02:12:25 <moony> oh, and a few hundred run-over dwarves
02:12:43 <moony> *The minecart hits the head, and the severed part flies off in an arc!*
02:13:01 <wob_jonas> how can I tell what expiration time an arin.ga paste has? I'm not sure what I set for that text file above
02:14:11 <zzo38> I think it is unlimited if no expiration time is set
02:14:14 <wob_jonas> moony: why are dwarves with severed heads a problem? aren't dwarves supposed to be somewhat expendable?
02:14:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, but I tried to enter a title in the expiration time field because I'm used to title fields in other pastebins
02:14:41 <moony> wob_jonas, Well recently toady fixed the emotion system, AND dwarves now remember and dwell on past events
02:14:47 <wob_jonas> and I've no idea how it parsed that
02:14:49 <moony> so lots of death == lol ur fort go insane
02:14:59 <moony> (As it used to be)
02:15:17 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, then I don't know. Do you know who made up arin.ga maybe you can ask them?
02:15:21 <wob_jonas> moony: can't you make the dwarves not _see_ those beheadings?
02:15:31 <moony> also dwarves still have the insane squimishness bug, so if they even see the *tooth* of a dead dwarf, they'll get very upset
02:15:37 <zzo38> I have something to say too, which is that in addition to User-Agent it should also pay attention to Accept
02:15:56 <wob_jonas> I can just paste it again, or ignore that and paste the parsed file from the new download (with Planes etc) in the morning
02:16:33 <moony> wob_jonas, you could also convince Bowserinator or me to host a pastebin on hellomouse.net with no timeout
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02:17:10 <zzo38> I think you should just paste the new file once it is available instead
02:19:12 <wob_jonas> scryfall seems to say that all transform cards have "transform" or "transformed" on some face. that's enough for me for now.
02:19:30 <wob_jonas> obviously Wizards can print different transform cards in the future, but they can also do other strange things
02:19:56 <wob_jonas> like starting to print transform cards was a strange thing in first place
02:20:09 <zzo38> izabera: Did you read what I and wob_jonas asked about the arin.ga?
02:21:24 <wob_jonas> also, scryfall says there are about 104 transform cards (I don't know how that counts the 3 meld cards and I don't care now), that means that's not too much extra data to download
02:23:19 <wob_jonas> I mean, I have to download like 50 kilobytes of junk for each of those 104 cards just to find out what they pair with, and I might still not know which face is the front face because New Gatherer itself didn't seem to know in the past (but hopefully they fixed that after Ixalan)
02:23:34 <wob_jonas> but that's not too much to do every three months
02:23:58 <wob_jonas> (and even that's an overkill, it's not like they'll suddenly rearrange transform pairs at every Oracle update)
02:24:29 * moony has paper copy of MC88100 manual
02:24:43 * moony just wants to find hardware that uses it that wont cost him $1k
02:25:07 <zzo38> Yes, not every new set will contain transform cards
02:25:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't have to download the pairings after every set just to archive the state
02:25:56 <wob_jonas> in fact it may be better to wait until they fix bugs in New Gatherer :-)
02:26:44 <wob_jonas> I'll try to paste the same name+type+editions file with the 5% more cards in the morning
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02:39:23 <zzo38> I suppose another way other than RDF could also be Lisp
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03:12:58 <izabera> zzo38: it's unlimited by default
03:13:42 <izabera> zzo38: if you ask nicely i can change it for you :)
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04:05:33 <zzo38> izabera: I am not asking you to change the time limit. I asked about how it would parse what wob_jonas entered, and also if you can fix it to use the Accept header in addition to User-Agent header.
04:14:46 <izabera> zzo38: https://arin.ga/QXWqQD this one?
04:16:26 <izabera> the expire date is set to "Oracle database downloaded from New Gatherer, card names, type lines, editions with multiverse ids -"
04:16:52 <zzo38> Yes, and what would it do with that?
04:18:26 <zzo38> Since, it isn't a date.
04:23:28 <izabera> that's fed to php's strtotime function
04:24:17 <izabera> and then false is compared with the mtime of that file on my machine
04:24:35 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/QltY/text so I made a term rewriting language. and an interpreter to go with that language.
04:24:36 <izabera> so it's never too old and it's never deleted
04:25:03 <imode> doesn't have builtins or numbers yet. but it weighs about 236 lines of python.
04:26:18 <imode> a lot of extra parens can be removed from that file as well. provided you know what you're doing.
04:26:27 <zzo38> izabera: Ah, OK. Now it is known what format it expects.
04:27:43 <izabera> basically any date-like string will do
04:28:27 <zzo38> Maybe it should be documented that it is the format by strtotime function, so that it is possible to know what it is.
04:32:30 <izabera> can you elaborate on what you said about the Accept header?
04:35:09 <zzo38> If the Accept header prefers text/plain or text/html then use that one. There are going to be programs it does not recognize, so it can use that to decide what to do if the URL does not specify otherwise. (It can also use this if the User-Agent header is omitted. Note, however, that Internet Explorer does not mention text/html in the Accept header, strangely.)
04:40:10 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a trope for when a episode of a television show is made as a non-canon episode, even though it is still one of the episodes and the other episodes is the canon continuity?
06:05:39 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58107&oldid=58106 * Oerjan * (+0) dfnor
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08:16:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://arin.ga/Rhl5mx/raw M:tG stuff
08:17:12 <wob_jonas> same thing as before, names and typelines and editions, but with schemes and planes etc now
08:18:40 <izabera> wob_jonas: pastes with invalid dates never expire
08:20:01 <zzo38> Also, the new file is using LF instead of CRLF.
08:20:18 <wob_jonas> izabera: ok, but the original question was, from outside the server (such as through a https connection), how do I query the expiry date?
08:20:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, it should use LF, the previous one shouldn't have used CRFL
08:20:38 <wob_jonas> but then both are just rough drafts
08:20:50 <wob_jonas> I'll have to parse the rest of the database anyway
08:21:22 <zzo38> There is a standard HTTP header for expires, but when I tried it I didn't get that header, which in this case is correct anyways since it doesn't expire.
08:22:12 <zzo38> wob_jonas: But izabera said it uses the PHP strtotime function; if you know how that function works (I don't) then you would be able to figure it out. (You can also test it if you have PHP on your computer, I suppose)
08:24:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but how do I query what someone else set as the expiry date?
08:25:05 <izabera> let me change one thing real quick...
08:25:28 <zzo38> wob_jonas: As far as I know you can't, but you could try what I suggested; I don't know if it sets the Expires header at all, since I haven't tried.
08:26:15 <zzo38> Have you tried playing Magic: the Gathering with a Marseillais rule? I don't know how well it work, because I have not tried.
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08:48:45 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58108&oldid=54681 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Virtual machine description */ correct 2 of the instructions allowed in first source code position, one in pos 2 , BA is invalid, DC is valid
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11:35:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know what the Marseillais rule is (in context of M:tG)
11:40:07 <Taneb> I don't know what it is anywhere
11:40:32 <Taneb> (I've been playing more magic the past few weeks, because Arena lets me do it without spending money)
11:51:16 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'd guess that zzo38 wants to transplant the idea behind the Marseillais chess variant (players make two moves in a row, with some restrictions) to M:tG.
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11:56:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: ah. right, that's one of those crazy chess variants where the first player wins trivially or something.
11:56:19 <wob_jonas> so you'd need very crazy amounts of restrictions
11:56:33 <wob_jonas> and it's probably the same in M:tG too
11:57:24 <int-e> wob_jonas: https://www.chessbazaar.com/blog/tag/chess-rules-for-marseillais-chess/ ... there is a balanced version where white only makes 1 move initially.
11:57:46 <wob_jonas> int-e: even if white makes only 1 move initially, it needs a lot to be balanced
11:58:09 <int-e> still crazy, but if GMs like it it can't be too trivial.
11:58:39 <int-e> Now doing the same thing in M:tG with all its fast decks... doesn't seem like a good idea.
12:02:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38, int-e: the most crazy derivative of M:tG I played were the variant rule rounds in www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500660
12:05:43 <wob_jonas> the basic rules for that game are in the first post, but every fifth "round" (not M:tG turns, but M:tG tournaments where every player submits a deck and then plays games with that deck) use some variant rule over that, different variant rule each time
12:14:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'd like to note that some promotional M:tG un-cards printed by Wizards like https://scryfall.com/card/hho/6/fruitcake-elemental and https://scryfall.com/card/hho/7/gifts-given don't appear in New Gatherer, and as far as I know, they never appeared in Gatherer or New Gatherer.
12:37:22 <wob_jonas> incidentally, in the HTML that New Gatherer outputs as the list, the img tags in the same role for different cards differ in what order their HTML attrs are mentioned in the HTML.
12:37:49 <wob_jonas> not that that matters, because attribute order isn't supposed to change anything in HTML, but still, it shows that there's some crazy stuff going on behind in whatever's generating that
12:38:23 <wob_jonas> probably lots of dynamic processing, most of which could be avoided by caching
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13:44:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Demsp * New user account
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14:31:22 <wob_jonas> In one of these pairs of preconstructed M:tG decks that are designed to play against each other, like the Duel Decks series and these fancy extra-small precon decks they make these days, they should put Trap Runner in one deck and a large green trampler like Rampanging Hippo or Stampeding Rhino in the other. The flavor would be great.
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15:45:47 <wob_jonas> Why the heck does this windows program have a pulldown menu that looks almost like it's a normal Windows pulldown menu (at least the later version that can have icons in it), but for some reason drag-dropping the mouse from the pulldown heading to the menu entry does not invoke the command?
15:46:13 <wob_jonas> It can't just be linking to an old version of some library, because that drag-drop behavior has been there very long ago, much longer than icons in menus.
15:47:12 <wob_jonas> Like, the drag-drop has been working since before 32-bit windows.
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16:06:22 <zzo38> I think it doesn't help against trampling creatures?
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16:09:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: exactly, the trampler just runs through the tree
16:09:29 <wob_jonas> but not all creatures in the deck with the trampler would be tramplers, only a few
16:10:37 <wob_jonas> obviously the deck with Trap Runner may still be able to deal with the trampler in other ways
16:10:54 <zzo38> Yes, then it is OK and is not a problem to do that
16:12:03 <wob_jonas> you'd have to balance the decks, but I didn't really have full decks in mind, and in fact I consider Trap Runner generally a bad card (in strength, even if it aces the flavor), so I can't imagine a deck with Trap Runner (I have built decks with big green tramplers)
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17:02:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58109&oldid=58104 * Demsp * (+175) /* Introductions */
17:04:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58110&oldid=58109 * Demsp * (+0) /* Introductions */
17:04:48 <esowiki> [[Lmcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58111 * Demsp * (+4019) Created page with "'''LMCode''' esoteric programming language. Based on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_man_computer Little man computer] command system. LMCode operates on an a..."
17:16:24 <esowiki> [[User:Backspace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58112 * Backspace * (+0) Created blank page
17:18:04 <esowiki> [[User:Backspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58113&oldid=58112 * Backspace * (+59)
17:19:07 <esowiki> [[User:Backspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58114&oldid=58113 * Backspace * (+10)
17:21:39 <esowiki> [[User:Backspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58115&oldid=58114 * Backspace * (-51)
17:22:48 <esowiki> [[User:Backspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58116&oldid=58115 * Backspace * (+41)
17:24:22 <esowiki> [[User:Backspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58117&oldid=58116 * Backspace * (-41)
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17:39:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58118&oldid=58061 * Demsp * (+13) /* L */
17:41:57 <esowiki> [[LMCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58119 * Demsp * (+4019) Created page with "'''LMCode''' esoteric programming language. Based on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_man_computer Little man computer] command system. LMCode operates on an a..."
17:46:12 <esowiki> [[Lmcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58120&oldid=58111 * Demsp * (-12)
17:51:17 <esowiki> [[Lmcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58121&oldid=58120 * Oerjan * (-3987) Change duplicated article into redirect
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20:01:48 <esowiki> [[Isolated]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58122&oldid=37898 * Gamer * (+3) /* Truth-machine */
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20:49:54 <esowiki> [[3D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58123&oldid=52933 * Gamer * (-6)
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02:12:13 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58124&oldid=53939 * Camto * (+822) calc= and list of my fav esolangs.
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08:28:23 <esowiki> [[LMCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58125&oldid=58119 * Demsp * (-7) /* Double a value */
08:32:46 <esowiki> [[LMCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58126&oldid=58125 * Demsp * (-31) /* The largest element in the list */
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09:10:20 <esowiki> [[LMCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58127&oldid=58126 * Demsp * (+18) /* See also */
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12:47:04 <esowiki> [[Lii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58128&oldid=53790 * Gamer * (+4) /* Classes and methods */
12:48:13 <esowiki> [[Lii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58129&oldid=58128 * Gamer * (+8) /* Overview */
12:49:26 <esowiki> [[Lii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58130&oldid=58129 * Gamer * (+3) /* Class (C) */
12:50:21 <esowiki> [[Lii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58131&oldid=58130 * Gamer * (-8) /* Computational class */
12:53:06 <esowiki> [[Lii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58132&oldid=58131 * Gamer * (+7)
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14:24:02 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58133&oldid=57954 * Gamer * (+30) /* Identifiers */
14:25:16 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58134&oldid=58133 * Gamer * (+34) /* Identifiers */
14:27:19 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58135&oldid=58134 * Gamer * (+21) /* Identifiers */
14:28:18 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58136&oldid=58135 * Gamer * (+3) /* Computational Class */
14:30:18 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58137&oldid=58136 * Gamer * (+0) /* Computational Class */
14:32:42 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58138&oldid=58137 * Gamer * (+88) /* Identifiers */
14:37:52 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58139&oldid=58138 * Gamer * (+90) /* Computational Class */
14:39:03 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58140&oldid=58139 * Gamer * (-57)
14:40:17 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58141&oldid=58140 * Gamer * (+10) /* Computational Class */
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15:12:03 <Taneb> Are octohedra the only platonic solid whose edge graph is euclidean?
15:14:38 <Taneb> Not euclidean, eulerian
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16:28:08 <oerjan> Taneb: yes, all the others have (more than two) vertices with odd number of adjacent edges
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16:43:27 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58142&oldid=58141 * Oerjan * (+66) It's TC; revert and clarify
16:44:54 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58143&oldid=57937 * Gamer * (-44)
16:47:03 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58144&oldid=58143 * Gamer * (+121) /* Quine */
16:47:15 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58145&oldid=58144 * Gamer * (+0) /* Examples */
16:47:41 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58146&oldid=58145 * Gamer * (+0) /* Quine */
16:48:01 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58147&oldid=58146 * Gamer * (-4) /* Computational class */
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17:21:44 <esowiki> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58148&oldid=52698 * Gamer * (-3) /* Libraries */
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17:24:30 <esowiki> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58149&oldid=58148 * Gamer * (+1) /* Libraries */
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17:28:31 <esowiki> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58150&oldid=58149 * Gamer * (+0) /* Creating Libraries */
17:28:48 <esowiki> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58151&oldid=58150 * Gamer * (+0) /* Creating Libraries */
17:35:32 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58152&oldid=57712 * Gamer * (+6) /* Brainfuck */
17:37:17 <int-e> https://ifixit.org/blog/11986/iphones-are-allergic-to-helium/ is a bit unexpected :)
17:40:29 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58153&oldid=58147 * Gamer * (+136)
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17:45:52 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58154&oldid=58152 * Gamer * (+81)
17:46:10 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58155&oldid=58154 * Gamer * (+1) /* dotlang */
17:47:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58156&oldid=58155 * Gamer * (+60) /* HQ9funge */
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17:56:39 <esowiki> [[IRP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58157&oldid=38369 * Gamer * (-1) /* See also */
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18:42:30 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58158&oldid=58156 * Gamer * (+28)
18:49:04 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58159&oldid=33030 * Gamer * (+19) /* Opcodes */
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18:50:04 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58160&oldid=58159 * Gamer * (-1) /* Opcodes */
18:50:20 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58161&oldid=58160 * Gamer * (+2) /* Opcodes */
18:51:23 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58162&oldid=58161 * Gamer * (+0) /* Opcodes */
18:51:31 <int-e> . o O ( Genesis 000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f. In the beginning there was nothing. Satoshi said: "Let there be money!" And there was money. It was worth nothing, but you could speculate a lot better. )
18:54:05 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58163&oldid=58162 * Gamer * (+65) /* Opcodes */
18:55:13 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58164&oldid=58163 * Gamer * (-36) /* Opcodes */
18:59:22 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58165&oldid=58164 * Gamer * (+0) /* Opcodes */
18:59:39 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58166&oldid=58165 * Gamer * (-93) /* Opcodes */
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