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00:34:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80477&oldid=80463 * Openbyte * (+150)
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00:35:14 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80478&oldid=74928 * Openbyte * (+64) Added rust implementation link
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02:16:03 <fizzie> fungot: You feeling okay?
02:16:03 <fungot> fizzie: oh, i changed 1 to 2, which is the problem? there we go.
02:16:54 <fizzie> Impressive, didn't even lose the TCP connection.
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02:21:34 <esowiki> [[User:FreakCdev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80479 * FreakCdev * (+279) Created page with "I'm the guy who is obsessed with programming languages, particularly esoteric ones. I have also created many programming languages like FreakC, Jellyscript, VNC and wrote an i..."
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07:32:20 <nakilon> fungot are you binary or ternary?
07:32:20 <fungot> nakilon: are you going to shoot me?" and get the primary key depending on that behaviour. in all other eu countries they are.
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07:54:44 <fungot> nakilon: right, but that's another flamewar!) capture him and get him to understand!
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08:46:46 <shachaf> "If close() is interrupted by a signal that is to be caught, it shall return -1 with errno set to EINTR and the state of fildes is unspecified."
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09:56:18 <HackEso> The password of the month is eerily topical
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11:05:14 <esowiki> [[User:Graue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80480&oldid=36063 * Graue * (+37) updates
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11:07:15 <esowiki> [[Sortle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80481&oldid=53715 * Graue * (+78) /* External resources */ add interpreter with debugger
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12:27:24 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80482 * ReplayShells * (+386) Created page with "A Mirror-machine is an extremely simple program type invented by [[User:ReplayShells]] to check decision, addition, subtraction, loops, input and outputs. Rules: *Input vars..."
12:27:58 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80483&oldid=80482 * ReplayShells * (+0)
12:29:01 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80484&oldid=80467 * ReplayShells * (+57)
12:29:27 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80485&oldid=80483 * ReplayShells * (+2)
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13:29:39 <int-e> tromp: You might enjoy this month's Ponder This... it's not just stupid brute force this time.
13:31:47 <int-e> the '*' part feels uninspired though
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13:45:53 <oerjan> i've been taking an internet white year :P
13:46:28 <oerjan> surprisingly, my freenode account seems to still be here.
13:46:56 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't notice you were missing, but then I haven't been here much myself
13:47:29 <oerjan> shachaf: yo! i just saw your email
13:48:43 <int-e> 'Nicknames and accounts which are expired will not automatically be dropped. Please contact network staff if you would like to take over an expired nickname.'
13:49:10 <int-e> So nobody wanted that nick and also knew the policy :)
13:50:08 <int-e> I didn't know... or maybe I did and forgot.
13:53:07 <int-e> oh well, the timing was eery, what with covid going around
13:53:52 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is in order again.
13:53:57 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is in order again.
13:54:27 <oerjan> i think covid was part of it - too much depressing news around.
13:56:22 <HackEso> 12361:2021-02-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is in order again. \ 12360:2021-01-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is eerily topical \ 12355:2020-12-01 <b_jonäs> learn The password of the month is wake these token brings \ 12348:2020-11-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0 \ 12344:2020-10-01 <wib_jonäs> learn The password of the month is Algol Waterloo Athens aftermath quadrant hydrau
13:56:48 <oerjan> i see you've been keeping up.
13:57:29 <ais523> I have no ida how common Ørjan is as a name
13:58:56 <oerjan> <int-e> where's oerjan when you need somebody to discuss the latest TWIST in GG... <-- months away. i may have some catchup to do. and check if the twist i _was_ expecting actually happened.
13:59:29 <int-e> I forgot what that was about
14:00:00 <oerjan> ais523: i think when i checked it was the 50th most common first name for males in norway
14:00:12 <oerjan> my surname is 2nd, though.
14:01:32 <ais523> yes, but your surname isn't part of your IRC nick
14:01:40 <ais523> was wondering about the chances of people trying to steal your nick from you
14:04:15 <oerjan> when i first arrived here, it was actually taken (but expiring)
14:04:32 <oerjan> the "oe" probably helps too.
14:04:52 <ais523> is ø legal in IRC nicks?
14:05:41 <oerjan> not in the basic version, although the legality of "|" is a legacy from when that _was_ used for ø in some charsets, iirc
14:06:03 <oerjan> (or ö, since irc is originally finnish)
14:06:18 <fizzie> That'd be the ISO 646-FI character set.
14:06:23 <ais523> ø and ö are notably different letters, though
14:06:40 <ais523> fizzie: oh wow, ISO 646
14:06:48 <Taneb> Famously so, I would say
14:06:55 <ais523> I thnk ISO 8859 has pretty much entirely replaced that, and both are nowadays obsolete
14:06:58 <fizzie> Yeah, but I'm sure there's some Norwegian-specific variant that has ø in there.
14:07:18 <ais523> ISO 646 is the reason C has trigraphs, I think
14:07:37 <ais523> if you don't have a | because your charset has a ö instead, you can write it as ??! instead
14:07:52 <ais523> that said, ö for OR isn't that hard to remember
14:08:03 <fizzie> ISO 646-FI indeed has [\]^ and {|}~ as the uppercase/lowercase variants of äöåü.
14:08:14 <ais523> german ö and English "or" have similar (but not identical) pronunciations
14:09:15 <int-e> that reminds me of my failure to learn the pronunciation of de Bruijn...
14:09:23 <fizzie> Not exactly sure why ü is on that list, since it's not really part of the Finnish alphabet. Wouldn't think it's the most common non-native letter or anything.
14:09:41 <int-e> ...my conclusion was that there's something in it that my ears aren't trained to hear
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14:10:00 <ais523> fizzie: maybe it's so the same character set can be used for both Finnish and some other language
14:10:06 <int-e> ais523: (they're not at all similar... to my german ear)
14:10:08 <ais523> German has äöü but also ß
14:10:27 <ais523> int-e: well ö is closer to "or" than o is
14:10:56 <ais523> but ö is more like "er" than "or", and still not that close
14:11:15 <int-e> ah is closer to eh than uh is... I suppose
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14:11:38 <fizzie> I think the German variant of ISO 646 omits the å to make room for ß.
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14:13:11 <int-e> oerjan: Oh I do remember. I wanted someone who knows the ins and outs of the Blitzengard family, at the time.
14:13:47 <int-e> (remember = I looked up the date in the logs and checked which comic I referred to)
14:14:01 <fizzie> It wasn't *that* uncommon to still see Usenet posts and emails and suchlike to get their äs and ös replaced with {s and |s when I was in university. And perhaps even more common to see them get replaced by d and v (which is what you get if you do 8-bit ISO-8859-1 but drop the 8th bit).
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14:22:37 <tromp> int-e: thx for suggestion
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16:49:21 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80486&oldid=71469 * Rerednaw * (-9)
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19:06:06 <HackEso> ølist? No such file or directory
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19:10:54 <zzo38> But now, you can add headers into messages to indicate the charater set to use. Glk uses ISO-8859-1, but also supports UTF-32.
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19:32:56 <b_jonas> "<ais523> that said, ö for OR isn't that hard to remember" => sure, it's indexing your arrays like vÄlÅ where it gets ugly. it worked better on BASIC microcomputers because BASIC doesn't use brackets or braces for anything, though those computers sometimes used different character sets than ISO-646.
19:36:07 <b_jonas> but even the different character sets used the obvious idea of replacing the brackets and other characters that are not used in BASIC
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19:48:34 <fizzie> printf("Hello, world!Ön");
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19:50:28 <shachaf> C implementations that use Unicode should support this. They already support digraphs and trigraphs, so why not monographs?
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20:41:29 <esowiki> [[Powerlist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80487&oldid=39461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Truth machine */ Cat
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20:46:47 <kmc> which ASCII characters have their bit pattern dictated by external concerns? there's NUL (usable to reserve space, can be punched to any character), DEL (any character can be punched to it), and SYN (distinct from any bitwise rotation of itself, usable to maintain framing on synchronous links)
20:46:52 <kmc> any others?
20:49:56 <zzo38> I don't know; that is just what I have known of, what you mentioned too
20:59:57 <b_jonas> kmc: well it's certainly convenient to have the digits 0123456789 encoded as consecutive bytes, makes it easier to parse or format numbers. the same is true for ABCDEF .
21:01:44 <b_jonas> I'll also note that EBCDIC encoding letters in traditional alphabetic order was the one and only chance to get rid of the traditional phoenician-derived order of the letters in the alphabet and invent an entirely new order
21:02:22 <b_jonas> but it might have been too late, by that time alphabetized dictionaries compiled by hand may have been too well spread for technology to be able to overthrow that order
21:03:34 <b_jonas> I'm also hoping we could get rid of the traditional Hungarian alphabetization order that makes everyone's work harder in the uncommon cases
21:06:36 <b_jonas> Nobody other than the very few people whose name starts with Cu or Cz or Zu would notice if we silently got rid of the rule that the nine special letters (sz, gy, ny, cs, zs, ly, ty, dzs, dz; but never ch or th or cz) and their doubled versions are sorted differently when they're used for the sound they usually denote than when they're accidents.
21:07:07 <b_jonas> That's a rule that very hard to strictly follow by a computer, and it gains you nothing.
21:07:34 <b_jonas> It's just the sort of nonsense that you teach to kids so they have to suffer just as you suffered in school
21:08:05 <b_jonas> You should teach it only in high school as a curiosity in case they want to look up words in older dictionaries.
21:10:33 <kmc> those sorts of rules are annoying for sure
21:10:41 <b_jonas> I mean treating sz, gy, ny, cs in *Scrabble* kind of make sense, but not for alphabetization
21:11:03 <b_jonas> but the Scrabble rules can be decided freely independent of the alphabetization
21:12:37 <kmc> Spanish used to collate "ch" and "ll" separately from "c" and "l" but they got rid of that in 1994, though they were still considered distinct letters until 2010 (per wikipedia)
21:14:38 <kmc> b_jonas: EBCDIC has the letters in traditional alphabetic order, but not contiguous
21:15:30 <kmc> they're hex 81-89, 91-99, A2-A9
21:15:46 <b_jonas> kmc: sure, but the not contiguous doesn't matter for alphabetization
21:15:48 <kmc> I forgot why this is, but it probably relates to its history as an extension of BCD (numerals are F0-F9)
21:16:46 <b_jonas> kmc: it relates to the Hollerith punch card encoding
21:17:23 <kmc> and in ASCII they're 30-39
21:17:53 <kmc> so that counts as an external concern: the low 4 bits of an ASCII numeral give you its binary/BCD representation
21:18:13 <kmc> whereas just having them contiguous in an arbitary place wouldn't
21:18:18 <fizzie> Does the single bit uppercase/lowercase thing count as well?
21:18:49 <kmc> are there any interesting relationships between ASCII and Baudot/ITA2?
21:23:12 <kmc> also I learned (although I may have already learned, and forgotten) about the use of ASCII character ENQ
21:23:15 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enquiry_character
21:23:57 <kmc> when sent to a Telex machine it would automatically reply with an identification string encoded on a rotating drum
21:24:26 <kmc> useful when leaving messages at an unattended machine. you could check that you reached the right recipient, and also check that the connection was not dropped by sending it again at the end
21:25:10 <kmc> such a character also exists in ITA2, called WRU for "Who aRe yoU?"
21:30:44 <b_jonas> "interesting relationships between ASCII and Baudot/ITA2" => I don't think so, apart from stuff that both ASCII and Baudot wants independently, like how space, which is one of the most common characters, has just one hole
21:32:24 <kmc> I wonder if WRU is ever used in amateur RTTY
21:34:14 <kmc> b_jonas: do you think there's a better ordering for the latin alphabet than the phoenecian-derived one? what would you prefer?
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21:53:17 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80488&oldid=80399 * Not applicable * (+791) almost there...
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22:41:45 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm not sure. the difficulty is that the latin alphabet is used for a lot of very different languages and they use many letters in very different ways.
22:43:38 <b_jonas> but you might want something with vowels first or last, consonants in two series that are voiced then unvoinced, pairs in the same order, something like AIUOEYBDGVZJMNLRPTKFSCH
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22:46:20 <b_jonas> also there's sort of a coordination problem, because you'd have to get all languages to use a similar order, just like how now basically all languages that use latin letters use the same order, except maybe for a few letters, and even all languages that use cyrillic scripts (sometimes very differently) use one consistent order, and that's not even considering greek/hebrew/arabic gemmatria
22:48:18 <b_jonas> oh, and braille latin letters have a mnemonic that only works with the current alphabetic order: ABCDEFGHIJ is represented the same as 1234567890, add a lower dot and it's KLMNOPQRST, add two lower dots and it's UVXYZ
22:49:52 <b_jonas> and the braille alphabet is quite old, it might actually have already been clearly established by the time the Hollerith and EBCDIC encodings were decided on
22:49:57 <b_jonas> so it might have been too late because of that
22:50:06 <b_jonas> I don't know the history of Braille, so I can't tell really
22:53:05 <kmc> fizzie: that's the keyboard layout used for hot metal typesetting!
22:53:09 <kmc> which I was also reading about last night
22:53:21 <zzo38> Many other things also work with the existing alphabetical order, including ASCII, punch cards, telephone numbers, etc.
22:53:27 <kmc> (I went from video terminals -> teletypes -> punched tape -> hot metal typesetting, kind of a backwards in time thing)
22:56:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's how this started. "<b_jonas> I'll also note that EBCDIC encoding letters in traditional alphabetic order was the one and only chance to get rid of the traditional phoenician-derived order of the letters in the alphabet and invent an entirely new order"
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23:03:26 <zzo38> Were alphabetic orders made up by numerology? I know there are many different kinds of alphabets with different orders, and at least some of them are based on numerology.
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23:34:02 <kmc> zzo38: which ones are those?
23:34:57 <kmc> I have a friend whose four year old son is really into different alphabets
23:35:05 <kmc> I told her she should try to teach him Hangul
23:35:33 <kmc> it's the best
23:37:24 <zzo38> I do not remember, but I think I read that somewhere.
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02:07:48 <kmc> also I was reading about formats for representing binary data on 7-bit paper tape, for EPROM programmers and such
02:07:51 <kmc> > In BNPF encoding, a single byte (8 bits) would be represented by a highly redundant character framing sequence starting with a single ASCII "B", eight ASCII characters where a "0" would be represented by a "N" and a "1" would be represented by a "P", followed by an ending ASCII "F". These ten-character ASCII sequences were separated by one or more whitespace characters, therefore using at least eleven
02:07:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:17: error: <hint>:1:17: error: parse error on input ‘,’
02:07:57 <kmc> ASCII characters for each byte stored (9% efficiency). The ASCII "N" and "P" characters differ in four bit positions, providing excellent protection from single punch errors.
02:08:00 <kmc> it's kind of shocking that people put up with such inefficiency
02:08:41 <kmc> but I guess paper is cheap, and the error detection is important (mis-punches being relatively common) and a simple sparse encoding is much simpler to implement than a CRC or whatever
02:08:52 <NotApplicable> you know, you could just store everything with whatever that 5 bit system used
02:09:21 <kmc> and yeah, it would be compatible with Baudot/ITA2 so you could even send ROM images over Telex, although I'm not sure if this was commonly done
02:09:28 <kmc> plus such systems eventually moved to ASCII anyway
02:09:51 <kmc> and the BNPF encodings were replaced by denser ones like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HEX
02:10:04 <kmc> which is still commonly encountered today
02:11:35 <kmc> `` objcopy -O ihex /bin/ls /dev/stdout
02:12:07 <HackEso> :1002A8002F6C696236342F6C642D6C696E75782DED. \ :0C02B8007838362D36342E736F2E32004D. \ :1002C400040000001000000001000000474E55002B. \ :1002D4000000000003000000020000000000000015. \ :1002E400040000001400000003000000474E550005. \ :1002F400A65F86CD6394E8F583C14D786D13B3BCD6. \ :04030400BE051B8790. \ :10030800110000006F00000002000000070000005C. \ :10031800A6A148041201AE3E28DC11132800009063. \ :100328006F00000000000000700000007100000075. \ :10033
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02:33:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:GeorgeEpicGen]]": Author request: user requesting deletion of their own userpage
02:56:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tomhe * New user account
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03:18:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80489&oldid=80477 * Tomhe * (+271) /* Introductions */ it's me ..tom(ario)
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03:29:34 <esowiki> [[User:Tomhe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80490 * Tomhe * (+258) About me, init
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05:16:26 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80491&oldid=70453 * Quintopia * (+292) finish FSAness proof
05:16:44 <HackEso> total 260 \ drwxr-xr-x 7 1000 1000 4096 Dec 31 2019 asmbf-1.2.7 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 103 Nov 12 2019 banana.txt \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 17296 Nov 18 2019 bfi \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 3315 Aug 9 00:39 compiled_brachylog.pl \ drwxr-xr-x 10 1000 1000 4096 Feb 20 2020 egel-master \ drwxr-xr-x 3 1000 1000 4096 Feb 21 2020 egel-scripts \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 145944 Feb 20 2020 egel.zip \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 3399
05:17:38 <HackEso> Bananas taste good and have potassium, but they bruise kinda easily. I still like to eat them though :)
05:18:43 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80492&oldid=80491 * Quintopia * (-292) Undo revision 80491 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]])
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06:22:38 <zzo38> How to properly clean the computer keyboard?
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06:26:32 <nakilon> fungot tell him how to clean the keyboard
06:26:32 <fungot> nakilon: do the gnu servers also lag for regular accounts ( not only sparc)" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
06:27:31 <nakilon> kmc is that your bot? is it protected from fork bomb and stuff?
06:30:40 <kmc> it's not my bot. I forget who maintains it these days
06:31:51 <kmc> it uses User Mode Linux for sandboxing
06:32:32 <kmc> not sure what it has in the way of resource limits
06:34:00 <nakilon> `` mv banana.txt _banana.txt
06:34:07 <HackEso> head: cannot open 'banana.txt' for reading: No such file or directory
06:34:34 <nakilon> `` mv _banana.txt banana.txt
06:34:54 <nakilon> someone may steal his banana
06:35:12 <kmc> https://github.com/GregorR/umlbox
06:37:13 <HackEso> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) \ Release:10 \ Codename:buster
06:38:08 <HackEso> uname: extra operand ‘–r’ \ Try 'uname --help' for more information.
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08:18:58 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80493&oldid=80485 * ReplayShells * (+0)
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10:42:02 <esowiki> [[Unfair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80494 * Gilbert189 * (+6323) Created page with "Unfair is an esolang, based on a game about counting numbers "unfairly". The esolang is made by [[User:Gilbert189]] (but not the game). ==How to play Unfair== A player has a c..."
10:49:42 <fizzie> nakilon: https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso
10:50:26 <nakilon> > HackEso is a reincarnation of a bot called HackEgo.
10:50:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:28: error: <hint>:1:28: error: parse error on input ‘of’
10:51:15 <nakilon> I just wanted to say that with an ability to permanently move files in it it's probably gonna have to be reincarnated again some day )
10:52:11 <nakilon> ah ok, it says they cared about it
10:52:44 <fizzie> The persisted files that matter are in a version control system. Since somewhat recently, the current directory's been made the non-VC'd persistent one, though, to reduce noisy commits a little.
10:55:33 <nakilon> can this bot install and run gems?
10:56:15 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ruby: command not found
11:00:40 <nakilon> `` curl https://api.my-ip.io/ip
11:00:42 <HackEso> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
11:00:56 <HackEso> `fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEso. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
11:01:37 <HackEso> `edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
11:02:43 <esowiki> [[Alphamation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80495 * ReplayShells * (+338) Created page with "'''Alphamation''' is joke language. ==Examples== ===[[Hello, World!]]=== <pre> + </pre> ===[[Cat]]=== <pre> - </pre> ===[[Reverse cat]]=== <pre> @- </pre> ==Implementations=..."
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11:04:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80496&oldid=80470 * Gilbert189 * (+13) /* U */
11:05:22 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80497&oldid=80484 * ReplayShells * (+40)
11:09:08 <fizzie> (That reminds me that `edit is still broken w.r.t. character encoding, should look into that.)
11:26:20 <esowiki> [[Betamation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80498 * ReplayShells * (+248) Created page with "'''Betamation''' is joke language. ==Examples== ===Hello,world!=== <pre> SS3 </pre> ==Implementations== *[https://github.com/ReplayShells/Esolangs/blob/master/TF.cs TF source..."
12:00:23 <nakilon> fizzie I don't understand what's the Lonux distro is there
12:02:37 <nakilon> I want to precompile a binary for it
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13:21:21 <nakilon> nevermind; the only way to compile RASEL as understand are either mruby or rubyc: mruby is less documented than how much I need to figure it out, rubyc compiles for half an hour and then says 2gb of ram isn't enough for that
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13:25:06 <arseniiv> it’s strange when a person you don’t have a clue about asks how are you :)
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13:35:40 <arseniiv> today is Whatareyouday it seems :)
13:36:26 <fungot> arseniiv: i'll keep that in mind. but the worst part being that it's not very hard
13:37:39 * nakilon is sad about not finding the way to execute RASEL in HackEso
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13:41:11 <NotApplicable> and youd think the hardest part would be making the translator stuff
13:42:22 <NotApplicable> anybody have any suggestions on making a parser for a c-style language?
13:43:14 <arseniiv> do you use a parser framework? It can make things lot easier
13:44:20 <NotApplicable> but the problem is that i don't know enough of "big-boy" languages to make my own compiled lanuage
13:44:49 <NotApplicable> so im writing it in quickbasic, which I dont think has a prebuilt parser framework
13:45:43 <nakilon> look for such frameworks in other versions of BASIC
13:45:48 <arseniiv> I would think it would be harder, not easier, with quickbasic
13:46:00 <nakilon> maybe there is something for Visual Basic
13:46:17 <arseniiv> yep maybe freebasic has something, it should be more modern IIRC
13:47:52 <arseniiv> also you might consider compiling into another language like C, or using stuff like LLVM, so optimization and machine code are done for you by a thing which is proven to work decently
13:48:28 <arseniiv> so you’ll be left with sole semantics of your language
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13:49:50 <NotApplicable> i already have the compiler portion written for the most part
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14:44:54 <nakilon> fizzie what's the `fetch size limit?
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14:49:15 <HackEso> 392) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
14:49:23 <int-e> NotApplicable: not applicable
14:50:04 <int-e> (the `fetch command does http(s))
14:52:05 <int-e> nakilon: I suspect it doesn't impose a limit... but probably a timeout
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14:53:52 <int-e> NotApplicable: I meant no offense.
14:55:31 <int-e> ah, that was untimely
14:57:57 <nakilon> int-e can't be, it's 1gbit storage
14:58:34 <nakilon> I wonder what's the exact limit so I would know if I'm able to shrink the file enough
15:00:15 <int-e> oh hmm. https://github.com/fis/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch#L41
15:00:56 <HackEso> \ 7-Zip [64] 16.02 : Copyright (c) 1999-2016 Igor Pavlov : 2016-05-21 \ p7zip Version 16.02 (locale=en_NZ.UTF-8,Utf16=on,HugeFiles=on,64 bits,1 CPU QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.1.3 (623),ASM) \ \ Usage: 7z <command> [<switches>...] <archive_name> [<file_names>...] \ [<@listfiles...>] \ \ <Commands> \ a : Add files to archive \ b : Benchmark \ d : Delete files from archive \ e : Extract files from archive (without using direc
15:01:33 <NotApplicable> so you could try putting it in a 7zip file (or .tar.gz if needed) and then `fetch` it
15:01:41 <nakilon> I can split it in chunks though ..D
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15:39:16 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Were alphabetic orders made up by numerology?" => I don't really know. I suspect that the order came first and the numeric values got assigned a bit later, which is why rho, sigma, tau have lower numeric values than the corresponding letters have in hebrew and arabic gemmatria. but that's just my guess, I don't know the history.
15:45:21 <b_jonas> kmc: the greek, hebrew, and arabic alphabets have traditional numeric values assigned to the letters. in addition, Braille only has 64 possible character cells, so the digits 1234567890 are represented by the same as the letters ABCDEFGHIJ, typically with a numeric prefix before an entire number (which may have more than one digit).
15:50:27 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> How to properly clean the computer keyboard?" => depends on whether it's a mechanical keyboard or not. mechanical keyboards have removable keys but the base is sensitive to water. pop off all the keycaps, clean the keycaps wet (eg. with detergent and sponge) and dry them completely before reattaching (this is fiddly, the water likes to stay in their concave parts, so you may need to
15:50:33 <b_jonas> individually remove water droplets with a paper towel from crevices after drying most of it in just air). dust the rest of the keyboard carefully, ideally dry (I guess you could try isopropil-alcohol solution for worse stains, but have it dry for a long enough time before you connect power).
15:53:55 <b_jonas> for non-mechanical keyboards, the keycaps typically aren't reattachable (though I think there are non-mechanical keyboards where they are), but they tolerate water somewhat more. for these, get some of the crumbs out by holding the keyboard on each side and hitting it on your palm (this is fast but doesn't get everything out); then remove the dust and crumbs by poking between the keys with whatever you
15:54:01 <b_jonas> like, I've used cut parts of plastic sheets, bent paperclips, stick notes, my father uses a brush; clean the keycaps and exposed plastic surfaces with commercial keyboard cleaning foam and paper towels.
15:54:19 <b_jonas> in any case, cleaning a keyboard can be fiddly and take a lot of time.
15:56:46 <b_jonas> "<NotApplicable> anybody have any suggestions on making a parser for a c-style language?" => if you have freedom to choose the syntax that you parse, then make it simple and unambiguous, without the stupid complications that most languages have, even when this comes at expense of slightly more verbose syntax. you'll thank yourself when you write the parser. but sometimes you want to parse an existing
15:56:52 <b_jonas> language, which can sometimes suck.
15:58:23 <NotApplicable> b_jonas: ya i made everything simple like `if(?condition, { do this; });
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15:58:38 <b_jonas> "<NotApplicable> so im writing it in quickbasic, which I dont think has a prebuilt parser framework" => you can probably port a yacc even to quickbasic. I recommend ais523's ayacc for this.
15:59:53 <b_jonas> note that there are two unrelated yacc versions called ayacc: I mean ais523's, which you can get from ( darcs pull "http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc" )
16:00:59 <b_jonas> but you can also hand-roll a parser if you prefer
16:01:59 <nakilon> actually I'll postpone the fetch because seems like jruby wrongly interpretes rasel.rb
16:02:19 <b_jonas> that said, I can only help with the parser, I have no idea how to write a usable native code generator for a compiler. I should probably try to write one once, just as a learning experience, but I haven't written one yet. I only wrote interpreters.
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16:20:15 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80499&oldid=80396 * Tetrapyronia * (+541) Added Unfair
16:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80500&oldid=80397 * Tetrapyronia * (+13)
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16:24:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tsukibadcoder * New user account
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17:38:59 <fizzie> nakilon: int-e: 10MiB.
17:39:11 <fizzie> (Imposed via setrlimit.)
17:50:33 <int-e> fizzie: so the github repo is current enough :)
17:52:12 <fizzie> It's not like there's any, you know, development, going on.
17:53:07 <int-e> sure. hackeso is perfection :P
17:54:09 <int-e> close enough really-we hardly ever complain about it
17:55:57 <kmc> `` uname -a
17:55:58 <HackEso> Linux (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:58:30 <fizzie> I had a lot of trouble with the UML build at one point when trying to upgrade, I feel like it's a bit of a niche thing.
17:59:04 <fizzie> (But it did eventually get better.)
18:01:38 <kmc> yeah, I think UML is pretty niche these days
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19:18:51 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80501&oldid=80488 * Not applicable * (-116)
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20:21:00 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80502&oldid=80492 * Quintopia * (+1113) BSM proof
20:21:29 <esowiki> [[Naz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80503&oldid=80502 * Quintopia * (+0) typo
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21:30:29 <uignrsglks> When creating an account on the wiki with a lowercase username, I get the message "Your username will be adjusted to "[capitalized username]" due to technical restrictions." Is this a new restriction?
21:32:17 <zzo38> That is a feature of MediaWiki; the first character must be uppercase.
21:35:17 <uignrsglks> Is there a way to see only user messages in the logs (e.g. https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-01.html), i.e. filter out join/quit/esowiki messages?
21:35:30 <uignrsglks> It's a bit hard to read with all of those.
21:36:56 <zzo38> Messages matching the regular expression /:HackEgo![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[wiki\]/i are the wiki messages, and JOIN and QUIT messages lack PRIVMSG. If you access the raw logs then you can use grep to filter out the lines that you don't want.
21:38:11 <zzo38> (At least, it is what I do; there may be other better ways.)
21:38:57 <uignrsglks> Thanks, I'll try that. Do you use curl/wget and output to a file on your computer or something like that?
21:41:38 <uignrsglks> Also, is there an advantage to processing the raw files rather than the text files?
21:42:08 <zzo38> I do use curl, yes.
21:42:09 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80504&oldid=80501 * Not applicable * (+368)
21:44:18 <zzo38> I don't know if there is an advantage to processing the raw files rather than the text files, but it is what I have used.
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22:08:04 <esowiki> [[C Plus Minus Plus Minus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80505 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+1729) Created page with "== C == An esoteric language created by [[User:SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont]] that has only 1 operation: NAND == Syntax == The program is divided into "functions" t..."
22:09:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80506&oldid=80496 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+30) /* C */ C
22:11:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80507&oldid=80506 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+6) /* C */ Change display text of C link
22:34:01 <fizzie> There's no customization support in the formatting of the HTML versions, though we *could* easily add a class to the div so that your user stylesheets could more easily tweak the presentation.
22:34:41 <uignrsglks> I think it would help people follow conversations in the logs more easily.
22:34:58 <fizzie> I imagine with a sufficiently clever selector, you could already hide all lines that contain a <span class="x"> in them, which is what those -!- lines use.
22:36:30 <uignrsglks> Maybe adding a checkbox for "show server messages" and one for "show esowiki messages", or something like that.
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22:39:43 <fizzie> I think I'd likely just do it as URL parameters to start with. But don't hold your breath, and if you really want to see it happen, consider adding it to https://github.com/fis/esolangs/issues as a feature request so that it's written down somewhere.
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22:59:33 <uignrsglks> fizzie In the meantime, I wrote my own little reader :)
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23:04:11 <fizzie> Fair enough. Just for the record, all three formats (HTML, plain text, "raw") are actually rendered on the fly from the *real* even-raw-er (or, depending on your point of view, more cooked) files, which I thought about also having an endpoint for, but didn't.
23:07:15 <uignrsglks> I see. What does the raw-er file look like?
23:09:24 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: Oh I do remember. I wanted someone who knows the ins and outs of the Blitzengard family, at the time. <-- i'm binging. was it related to the muse disputing martellus' claim as storm king?
23:09:51 <oerjan> what i remember is tarvek mentioning being heir through his _mother_.
23:10:45 <oerjan> but i sort of presume martellus is related through his _father_, because grandma is referred to once as "sturmvoraus", tarvek's surname.
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23:25:00 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80508&oldid=80476 * Digital Hunter * (+92) /* Infinite loop */
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23:42:27 <arseniiv> I generated some fake Russian words (orthography-wise). I was going to experiment with temperature in Markov chains but for now that was just a plain one, using 4-letter and 3-letter contexts. My idea is to make distributions for n-letter contexts AXYZ, BXYZ, CXYZ, … more uniform based on a distribution for a context XYZ
23:44:46 <arseniiv> hm it’s not wholly a temperature, it seems like some co-temperature in a way. Real temperature, if I get it right, should just uniformize a distribution independently for every context, making frequencies of the output letters more uniform, not making context-dependence more uniform
23:50:01 <arseniiv> in a way, with my idea one should get fractional context length. For example if we re-weight distribution this way:
23:50:01 <arseniiv> P(cXYZ|W) := α P(cXYZ|W) + (1 − α) P(XYZ|W),
23:50:01 <arseniiv> then instead of 4-letter contexts (AXYZ, …) we get (3 + α)-letter contexts! Or at least for α ∈ {0, 1} that’s genuinely so, and we have a right to think this to behave linearly
23:50:30 <arseniiv> damn, I wrote all probabilities the wrong way
23:50:54 <arseniiv> that should be P(W|cXYZ) := α P(W|cXYZ) + (1 − α) P(W|XYZ)
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23:56:53 <arseniiv> though I shouldn’t be so happy with it: in general, there is an α for each context length but 0, and how all of these α’s should relate to this hypothetical fractional context length isn’t obvious to me
23:57:54 <arseniiv> so, for the traditional inquiry — do you like this?
23:58:08 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
23:59:03 <arseniiv> ah, I forgot to share those fake words
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00:04:29 <arseniiv> frankly I find interesting three words which sound a bit Polish to my ear: желоведейства, дружинскороже and поднаже (I used a list of words in various grammatical forms, as opposed to lexemes, so the letter distribution would be more live)
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00:06:16 <arseniiv> also a curious word is произведь. It alludes to произведение “product, production” and something like исповедь “confession” or медведь “bear” (noun)
00:06:54 <arseniiv> can’t place my bet what one could use this portmanteau for
00:09:19 <arseniiv> (it might also allude to произвол “arbitrariness, arbitrary decisions (with your disapproval of them)”)
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00:15:59 <kmc> preved medved
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00:21:24 <uignrsglks> arseniiv You might want to look into context tree weighting.
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00:32:10 <arseniiv> @tell uignrsglks thanks, interesting!
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00:37:23 <esowiki> [[C Plus Minus Plus Minus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80509&oldid=80505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Implementations */ Cats
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07:00:52 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80510&oldid=80461 * Nakilon * (+2) /* Factorial */ forgot to about the latest conditional trampoline change
07:01:13 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80511&oldid=80510 * Nakilon * (+0) /* Nth Fibonacci number */ forgot to about the latest conditional trampoline change
07:07:17 <nakilon> damn I copypasted a typo between two edit messages
07:07:33 <nakilon> forgot to about *facepalm*
07:15:06 <nakilon> 10:14:44 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: 53 File size limit exceededcat xaa xab xac > rasel.jar
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07:48:07 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80512&oldid=80511 * TaterTomorrow * (+0) Minor spelling and grammar fixes.
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10:01:31 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80513&oldid=79325 * Abyxlrz * (-219)
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10:19:44 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80514&oldid=80267 * Gilbert189 * (+13)
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11:24:03 <fizzie> Yeah, that limit's a little draconian. But you've got to draw a line somewhere, and the bot's really not that convenient for "big things".
11:26:04 <fizzie> For "normal software", I can always install things with apt into the host container, where it gets its userland from. Not sure about Ruby gems; since there's no Internet access from the UML sandbox, you'd at least have to install them in an offline fashion. And $HOME is a non-persistent directory.
11:28:38 <nakilon> yeah, I could not easily find anything about providing ruby as a stand-alone folder so that's why I'm wrapping it in .jar and deleted files from it one by one to reduce size from 25.8 to 14.0 MB
11:29:22 <nakilon> but it does not look like it's possible to achieve 10, so I'm now googling how to split jar into two jars but no success yet
11:30:30 <fizzie> I think that should really just be a matter of splitting the files in any arbitrary way. As long as they're all in the classpath, I don't think it should much matter which file they're from. But who knows.
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11:30:57 <fizzie> (I can install plain Ruby on it though, if that helps.)
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11:31:44 <nakilon> I don't know Java and these things make no sense to me
11:31:58 <nakilon> I can't imagine how one jar would know it should go look into another one
11:32:26 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: install :: t0 -> t1 -> terror: Variable not in sc...
11:32:35 <fizzie> The jar doesn't have to, it's the JVM that does the class-loading, and I think it just iterates over the classpath.
11:33:05 <fizzie> Ruby 2.5 seems to be the Debian (10) default. Is that fine?
11:36:09 <HackEso> ruby 2.5.5p157 (2019-03-15 revision 67260) [x86_64-linux-gnu]
11:36:24 <nakilon> yay! thank you! I'll make something around that
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11:49:20 <fizzie> Just realized if I used the "upper half" / "lower half" block-drawing characters in a terminal for bitmapped graphics, I'd get pretty close to a VGA mode 13h screen. That's just bizarre.
11:49:24 <fizzie> (A full-sized terminal window with my settings is 319 columns and 94 lines.)
11:49:54 <nakilon> `` echo "116/7//.@" | ./rasel
11:51:46 <nakilon> `` echo 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' | ./rasel
11:52:03 <nakilon> not the best interface though ..D
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12:28:19 <nakilon> `` echo '"?yadot tuoba sthguoht ruoy era tahw tognuf">:?@,08-j' | ./rasel
12:28:20 <HackEso> fungot what are your thoughts about today?
12:28:49 <nakilon> hah, he does not respond to other bots
12:32:33 <int-e> we've had bot loops... they're never fun if the corresponding bot ops aren't around to stop them
12:33:09 <int-e> so many bots here ignore the other ones
12:34:17 <fungot> nakilon: part of my problem like that, and you can't inspect the dynamic context any more, though
12:34:19 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: fungot
12:34:23 <fizzie> Also, some subset of the bots add a non-breaking space if the output starts with a non-alphabetic character, to avoid trigger characters. (Of course that's not applicable to triggering fungot by name.)
12:34:23 <fungot> fizzie: from what i understand, r5rs is. srfi is " scheme in 5 minutes.
12:37:24 <nakilon> arseniiv since you are back, those words are cool
12:38:25 <nakilon> what did you use to teach it? a dictionary or a book?
12:40:18 <nakilon> you all know the thispersondoesnotexist.com
12:40:35 <nakilon> recently I randomly entered the url thiscatdoesnotexist.com and it appeared to be a thing
12:40:59 <nakilon> I would like to make a thisnewswebsitedoesnotexist.com
12:42:04 <nakilon> oh wait this domain is already taken
12:44:01 <fizzie> Apparently there's both thiscatdoesnotexist.com and thesecatsdonotexist.com.
12:44:07 <fizzie> The difference is, the latter has more cats (at a time).
12:45:11 <nakilon> I resist so much to download them all
12:45:33 <nakilon> can use it to generate fake karma for reddit spambots though
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13:12:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Not applicable * uploaded "[[File:Gradient to black transparent.png]]": Transparent to black linear gradient
13:20:08 <nakilon> arseniiv https://nlpub.ru/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0
13:21:43 <esowiki> [[Unfair]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80516&oldid=80494 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Number cat */ cat
13:24:18 <nakilon> that's just a big list of the best libraries for NLP in different languages, might be helpful
13:27:36 <arseniiv> I’ll forward it to my NLP friends though, thanks! For myself I’m not much into real NLP (yet?..)
13:31:07 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80517&oldid=80504 * Not applicable * (+151)
13:31:16 <arseniiv> nakilon: ah one of them already said thanks :)
13:32:07 <nakilon> they might already know this resource though
13:32:13 <int-e> . o O ( there's nothing natural about NLP )
13:33:01 <NotApplicable> Is it illegal to do this on Esolangs for a user page
13:34:27 <arseniiv> nakilon: possible! That was the case several times when I stumbled on something related and showed them
13:36:00 <int-e> NotApplicable: user pages get a lot of freedom, nobody really cares, I think... as long as no actual laws are violated and it's not spam
13:36:42 <nakilon> also they are language processing
13:37:48 <NotApplicable> Ai Dungeon is probably the best natural language processing for a computer
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13:38:51 <nakilon> I doubt it is doing any language analysis
13:39:22 <nakilon> it's just memorizing tons of text
13:40:35 <NotApplicable> https://play.aidungeon.io/main/scenarioView?publicId=af4a05f0-cc52-11ea-a06c-f134f3d35cd1
13:53:23 <fizzie> NotApplicable: What I think might be more of a problem are the icons. There's an overall CC0 license for all "content" in the wiki, it gets put on the bottom of every page, including user pages. And the GitHub Octocat logo definitely isn't CC0.
13:53:43 <fizzie> (Not to mention that file uploads are "global", not specific to the page they're used in.)
13:54:17 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Copyrights and so on.
13:55:40 <int-e> hmm did I miss icons?
13:56:30 <NotApplicable> THe only problem is that I don't think you can delete images
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13:58:56 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80518&oldid=80517 * Not applicable * (-102) Removed icons due to copyright stuff
13:59:27 <int-e> NotApplicable: fizzie is an esowiki admin, there are ways
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14:00:17 <int-e> heh... this is hard to unsee: the github cat has a tentacle arm
14:00:56 <int-e> I always thought it was a tail
14:03:36 <int-e> hmm why is it an octopus... does it deal with octopus merges?
14:04:07 <NotApplicable> Nah i think i remember hearing somewhere that the founder just though it looked cool
14:04:29 <int-e> I also forgot about this version which is unambiguous. https://github.githubassets.com/images/modules/logos_page/Octocat.png
14:05:18 <NotApplicable> GitHub's mascot is an anthropomorphized "octocat" with five octopus-like arms.[54][55] The character was created by graphic designer Simon Oxley as clip art to sell on iStock,[56] a website that enables designers to market royalty-free digital images. GitHub became interested in Oxley's work after Twitter selected a bird that he designed for their
14:05:18 <NotApplicable> own logo.[57] The illustration GitHub chose was a character that Oxley had named Octopuss.[56] Since GitHub wanted Octopuss for their logo (a use that the iStock license disallows), they negotiated with Oxley to buy exclusive rights to the image.[56]
14:05:19 <NotApplicable> GitHub renamed Octopuss to Octocat,[56] and trademarked the character along with the new name.[54] Later, GitHub hired illustrator Cameron McEfee to adapt Octocat for different purposes on the website and promotional materials; McEfee and various GitHub users have since created hundreds of variations of the character, which are available on The
14:05:46 <int-e> the name needs more Lovecraft... oc'thoc'aht
14:06:52 <int-e> Oh if it started out as Octopuss... things are beginning to make more sense.
14:07:57 <int-e> And yes I do see why they would change it... but it's the kind of adolescent humor I've come to expect from budding tech companies.
14:38:36 <int-e> `` env | grep hackenv
14:38:37 <HackEso> PWD=/hackenv/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ IRC_MESSAGE=`` env | grep hackenv
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14:58:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80519&oldid=80129 * Tetrapyronia * (-54)
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15:38:13 <fizzie> I always thought the OctoCat had something do with merges too.
15:39:02 <fizzie> And yeah, it's maybe a little confusing that the current working directory of each command != the home directory.
15:41:01 <fizzie> The rationale is something like, we want the cwd to be persistent but not version-controlled (to make it more convenient to do multi-step operations, but to not default to making a permanent commit), and we want the home directory to be definitely non-version-controlled because of all the programs that like sticking stuff into $HOME. I guess you could argue for making $HOME /hackenv/tmp, or
15:41:07 <fizzie> /hackenv/tmp/home, or something. But setting it to /tmp predates the existence of /hackenv/tmp, which was a later innovation.
15:42:20 <fizzie> (I'll take a look at deleting the images at some point, I did do it for some other upload in the past.)
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16:32:59 * nakilon never thought that $HOME and $pwd have to be the same
16:49:04 <HackEso> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
16:55:22 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
16:56:16 <HackEso> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:56:36 <HackEso> `?? No such file or directory
16:56:54 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: `? ¯\(°_o)/¯ | hd'
16:57:01 <nakilon> I've spent an hour right now to come up with own way to mark up sentences and have marked up 100 news articles
16:57:52 <nakilon> about 6% of them are grammatically correct and funny but unfortunately you won't understand the language, lol
16:58:45 <int-e> `` \? '¯\(°_o)/¯' | hd
16:58:47 <HackEso> 000000 c2 af 5c 28 c2 b0 e2 80 8b 5f 6f 29 2f c2 af 20 >..\(....._o)/.. < \ 000010 69 73 20 61 20 6d 69 73 73 70 65 6c 6c 69 6e 67 >is a misspelling< \ 000020 20 6f 66 20 c2 af 5c 28 c2 b0 5f 6f 29 2f c2 af > of ..\(.._o)/..< \ 000030 0a >.< \ 000031
16:59:11 <nakilon> actually marking up English titles would be much easier
16:59:26 <HackEso> [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN]
16:59:48 <nakilon> I'll try some /r/programming feed I guess
17:03:43 <int-e> so the former has an extra zero-width space... no idea why
17:04:50 <NotApplicable> I think it's because it says it is the misspelling
17:11:41 <nakilon> there was another utility that actually
17:12:04 <HackEso> find: ‘xx*’: No such file or directory
17:12:15 <nakilon> and I use hexdump for some reason on my machine
17:12:22 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/hackenv/bin/xx*': No such file or directory
17:12:26 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/xkcdwhatiflist
17:12:58 <nakilon> I believe it installs with vim
17:13:07 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: vim: command not found
17:13:10 <HackEso> ex/vi: Error: /var/tmp/vi.recover: No such file or directory \ ex/vi: Modifications not recoverable if the session fails \ ex/vi: Error: /var/tmp/vi.recover/vi.6b4N9d: No such file or directory \ Error: stderr: Inappropriate ioctl for device
17:13:23 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:14:12 <HackEso> ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/map_files': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission
17:15:21 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: xxd: command not found
17:15:24 <HackEso> xxd? No such file or directory
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17:52:17 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80520&oldid=80375 * Bo Tie * (+84) Interpreter :)
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17:54:33 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80521&oldid=80520 * Bo Tie * (+0) too many edits
18:03:43 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80522&oldid=80521 * Bo Tie * (-25)
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21:48:42 <zzo38> Snow World Land {-} Snow World Land ;; All objects are snow. ;; {T}: Add {C}. ;; When ~ dies, add one mana of any color into your mana pool or return a non-snow world card or non-world snow card from your graveyard into your hand.
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22:49:32 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80523 * Erinius * (+79) created
22:50:15 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80524&oldid=78118 * Erinius * (+34)
23:07:22 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80525&oldid=80523 * Erinius * (+139)
23:16:57 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80526&oldid=80508 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* 99 bottles of beer */ huh, one of my bounds was off! Verified using a still-unsure-if-it's-really-working interpreter
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23:26:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80527&oldid=80526 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Reverse cat */ substrings are weird. I'm probably gonna need to fix a bunch of programs just for this problem. I can't quite wrap my head around it.
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23:29:29 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80528&oldid=80293 * Digital Hunter * (+92) /* Parse this sic */ Really really sorry. This has been tested with a semi-working interpreter so if it's actually still broken then I'll give up for sure.
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23:34:40 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80529&oldid=80527 * Digital Hunter * (-27) /* Info to come */
23:34:54 <fizzie> Hmm, wonder if this "postmarketOS" thing is any good. It seems to be pretty much the only potentially still maintained Linux thing I can find for a 2012 Nexus 7 tablet.
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23:55:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 032350Z 13008KT CAVOK M18/M20 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 12008KT
23:56:04 <lambdabot> EGLL 032350Z AUTO 21005KT 9999 NCD 05/03 Q1006 NOSIG
23:56:16 <fizzie> It was all spring-y here the other day.
23:56:36 <lambdabot> KOAK 032353Z 25011KT 10SM FEW042 FEW095 14/07 A3021 RMK AO2 SLP229 T01440072 10156 20122 55013
23:56:52 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me, I was supposed to look at deleting those file uploads.
23:59:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Reddit logo onwhite.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
00:00:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:All-other-usernames-were-taken.favicon.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
00:00:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Scratch cat head.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
00:00:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:GitHub-Mark-120px-plus.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
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00:00:52 <fizzie> I imagine the second one might've been okay, but it wasn't used anyway, so.
00:01:33 <kmc> is the wiki all CC0
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00:03:19 <fizzie> It's supposed to be. Although now that we're talking icons, I wonder about our hosting sponsor badge, for example. The declaration says "all content" and doesn't elaborate.
00:03:43 <fizzie> Well, the Esolang:Copyrights page also uses the word "everything".
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07:22:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80530&oldid=72548 * Salpynx * (+649) /* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ did this ages ago, neglected to link it from anywhere. Happy 2021!
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09:42:52 <HackEso> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
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13:11:50 <nakilon> marking up the /r/programming titles is much harder and less effective than titles of the news website that has editors
13:12:20 <nakilon> no weird character, question marks, caps lock, multiple sentences within a single title, etc.
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14:27:13 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80531&oldid=80522 * Bo Tie * (+0)
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16:13:09 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80532&oldid=80114 * Tetrapyronia * (+23)
16:14:49 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80533&oldid=80532 * Tetrapyronia * (+14)
16:22:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80534&oldid=80529 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* Fibonacci numbers */
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16:35:22 <int-e> shachaf: played a bit of AME, found 3 new friends... still skeptical about ever completing it
16:52:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Smasheded * New user account
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16:57:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80535&oldid=80489 * Smasheded * (+213)
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18:13:33 <esowiki> [[Cav]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80536 * Smasheded * (+1892) initial commit
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19:01:36 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80537&oldid=80536 * Smasheded * (+255)
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19:38:59 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80538&oldid=80537 * Smasheded * (+883)
19:40:41 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80539&oldid=80538 * Smasheded * (+27)
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20:06:41 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80540&oldid=80539 * Smasheded * (+125)
20:14:36 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80541&oldid=80540 * Smasheded * (+126)
20:18:59 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80542&oldid=80541 * Smasheded * (+171)
20:24:08 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80543&oldid=80542 * Smasheded * (-3)
20:35:37 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80544&oldid=80543 * Smasheded * (+90)
20:54:56 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80545&oldid=80544 * Smasheded * (+67)
20:58:33 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80546&oldid=80545 * Smasheded * (+8)
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22:41:07 <esowiki> [[BitSwitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80547&oldid=78985 * Bloodyknucles * (-368)
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00:48:16 <esowiki> [[Cav]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80548&oldid=80546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Cat languages
00:48:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80549&oldid=80507 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* C */ Add [[Cav]]
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01:40:07 <oerjan> ask me everything, obviously. the more strenuous version of AMA.
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01:46:08 <shachaf> (But oerjan's answer is better. You should ask oerjan everything.)
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01:59:26 <nakilon> so spending an hour I've marked up 65 post titles -- made own markup system that fits my "fake titles" algorithm
02:00:38 <nakilon> how I think that if I take some existing library I can ask it to mark up both the 65 titles and any number of others
02:01:19 <nakilon> and when it marks up some word in the other title it can find the similar word from those that I've marked up and copy my marking
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05:01:21 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80550&oldid=79878 * IFcoltransG * (+0) /* Description */ Spelling
05:02:25 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80551&oldid=80550 * IFcoltransG * (+1) More Spelling
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09:10:07 <esowiki> [[0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80552 * Baidicoot * (+46) Created page with "== 0 == === Instructions === 0 - calculates 0"
09:10:28 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80553&oldid=80552 * Baidicoot * (-8) /* 0 */
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11:22:38 <nakilon> fizzie, what does "stalker mode" mean here? https://esolangs.org/logs/
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11:25:08 <int-e> it's for people who'd otherwise keep reloading the current log to see what's going on on the channel, without logging into IRC
11:25:12 <fizzie> Breakage is what it means.
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11:25:24 <fizzie> What shachaf and int-e describe is what it *should* be.
11:25:52 <int-e> so... stalkers, who observe without being seen
11:26:11 <fizzie> But it uses a websocket-based fancy thing to get a real-time feed, and there's something odd wrong with the websocket support of the embedded HTTP server it's using, so it occasionally breaks the rest of the logs web frontend.
11:26:25 <fizzie> (I don't know exactly what the circumstances are.)
11:26:55 <fizzie> I should try to update to the latest version of that code, maybe they've accidentally fixed it by now.
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11:33:58 <nakilon> my russian news website proxy RSS was limited to 100 entries, the /r/programming top-month (and currently any other Reddit posts feeds for some reason) are limited to 64 entries
11:34:26 <nakilon> so to test my idea I need some bigger source of quotes and I'm gonna use this channel logs then ..D
11:35:18 <arseniiv> oh, these logs are awesome if you filter all service messages like who joins and leaves
11:35:35 <nakilon> yeah, gotta filter out usernames as well
11:35:57 <nakilon> arseniiv, are you russian-speaking?
11:37:07 <nakilon> check out these fake news (learned on 100 recent lentaru entries): "Ученые захотели картофель цивилизации Навального", "В США в центре Москвы заподозрили мир"
11:43:07 <fizzie> fungot: What's your position on the fake news media?
11:43:07 <fungot> fizzie: so sarahbot is broken."
11:43:16 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
11:43:23 <fizzie> fungot: Please elucidate.
11:43:23 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i very much welcome the response and their three key recommendations to improve the awareness and training of seafarers, access to information, access to the network and equal and fair operating and profit rules, since its accession to the eu' s priority is to be expected that the commission should look at the plants and on our television screens and the cultural identity of each country to have a group, t
11:44:01 <fizzie> TBH, the commission "looking at -- our television screens" sounds like they're just goofing off.
11:44:06 <arseniiv> I misread “elucidate” as “euclidiate”
11:44:11 <int-e> fungot: please keep it witin the 30 seconds time frame
11:44:12 <fungot> int-e: mr president, the commission fnord. on the other hand, a highly security-conscious, repressive and utilitarian vision geared to their own independent, sovereign state. i approached an elderly man there as well. there is no repetition of such unscrupulous behaviour by cowboy operators.
11:44:35 <int-e> arseniiv: that's uncanny because I also did that
11:45:03 <Taneb> Is the fnording per style or global
11:45:26 <fizzie> Taneb: The amount of fnording depends on the style, but the word itself is global.
11:45:38 <Taneb> I mean, what gets mapped to "fnord"
11:45:50 <shachaf> Did you rescue any kittens?
11:45:55 <Taneb> A few but not many
11:45:59 <Taneb> I haven't got the hang of it yet
11:46:06 <fizzie> It's how fungot pronounces the special token `UNK`, which is used at least in some styles to replace words that are very infrequent.
11:46:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, over the last three years, and its secretariat. as you well know, of course, saying that it is simply a copy of the letter to me from indonesia offers a ray of hope. despite these reservations concerning the molitor report and the other is urban policy. when the white paper on food safety, are, firstly, i should like to start by expressing my hope and my expectation that the parliament itself calls into qu
11:46:14 <int-e> fungot: is it part of the model generation or baked into fungot?
11:46:15 <fungot> int-e: mr president, again it is also important in the context of council discussions. on the issue, at all times, the commissioner, in relation to what are known as the ' prodi amendment' and the thinking included in your files, should replace nothing, but was planned by mr milosevic nearly eight years ago and is now defined in the santer package, since objective 5a and 5b of the structural funds, as we hope it will we can sti
11:46:22 <int-e> fizzie is it part of the model generation or baked into fungot?
11:46:22 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i wish to mention two issues which have been working behind the scenes, but to combating such an important question, and, in general, and to try to make democracy work for ordinary people. there is no question about that.
11:46:38 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i wish to thank the commission for remaining relatively modest and not having claimed, like some of the palestinian territories. it is an issue of such importance! do not take a stand in the way that we want and have just decided not to include them as beneficiaries of social policy. i think it would be wrong for us to be able to reach a universally satisfactory solution.
11:47:21 <fizzie> The word itself is baked into. Replacing infrequent words is part of the training. It's in fact a pretty standard practice of ngram language models, except that when you're using them to just give likelihood scores to sentences, it's a lot less "visible" than when you're using them generatively.
11:48:29 <fizzie> The actual fnording happens in https://github.com/fis/fun%67ot/blob/master/fun%67ot.b98#L157
11:49:11 <arseniiv> wwait so fungot is spelled with an IPA ɡ?
11:49:11 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, we are moving forward significantly, but i would prefer a different wording which will render the constitutionally protected rights acquired by the anti-globalisation movement by appearing to be sensitive in its dealings with us the united states
11:49:26 <fizzie> arseniiv: No, %67 is just the standard ASCII g.
11:49:34 <fizzie> I just escaped it to avoid the spam.
11:50:28 <Taneb> arseniiv: rofoldl has bad strictness properties, you should generally use either rofoldr to rofoldl'
11:52:32 <arseniiv> Taneb: I know, that’s why I… oops where did all the memory go
11:52:45 <int-e> fizzie: somehow, github doesn't like that trick at all
11:55:03 <int-e> ( https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/notfound.png )
11:56:00 <int-e> (made more irritating because Firefox pretty-prints the %67 as 'g')
11:56:18 <nakilon> what trick? https://i.imgur.com/b29FeOn.png
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12:01:53 <fizzie> Weeird. Worked for me.
12:02:30 <Taneb> I click the link, it says "Not found", I press enter in the address bar, it resolves as expected
12:02:42 <fizzie> Computers: they're hard. :/
12:03:11 <Taneb> (I am using Firefox, if it helps)
12:03:33 <shachaf> int-e's link says notfound for me.
12:05:54 <int-e> Taneb: oh, so pressing return is not the same as marking the URL and pasting it again...
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12:34:18 * nakilon is thinking how to remove nicknames from messages if someone has used the common English word as a nickname
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12:41:38 <fizzie> I once drew a just-for-fun chart of "relationships" between people on a forum I was archiving, based on who mentioned whose name most frequently. A handful of people who were pretty much never posting ended up being the most popular ones around, because they had common (Finnish) words as their user names.
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13:03:44 <nakilon> looks like there is a channel ##nlp
13:04:13 <nakilon> I might visit it some day to share my shame
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13:34:42 <nakilon> I think I'll just whitelist those words when I find them
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14:24:02 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80554&oldid=80548 * Smasheded * (+164)
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14:28:17 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80555&oldid=80554 * Smasheded * (+178)
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17:16:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cirrubec * New user account
17:17:11 <b_jonas> "made more irritating because Firefox pretty-prints the %67 as 'g'" => yes, but it gives the real URL when you copy-paste the whole thing, not the pretty-printed version
17:18:57 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> A handful of people who were pretty much never posting ended up being the most popular ones around, because they had common (Finnish) words as their user names." => that happens here on #esoteric too
17:19:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80556&oldid=80535 * Cirrubec * (+143)
17:20:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80557&oldid=80556 * Cirrubec * (+64)
17:20:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80558&oldid=70577 * Cirrubec * (+3156)
17:20:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80559&oldid=80558 * Cirrubec * (+2)
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18:57:33 <int-e> pfft. 'Buy Baba's Sausage Expedition - Puzzle Game Masterpieces BUNDLE'
18:58:34 <int-e> (currently on Steam, contains Baba is You, Stephen's Sausage Roll and A Monster's Expedition))
19:09:14 <nakilon> "Baba is You" reminds me XOR
19:09:42 <nakilon> https://www.mobygames.com/game/xor/screenshots
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19:12:51 <esowiki> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80560&oldid=80553 * Baidicoot * (+70)
19:13:43 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80561&oldid=80560 * Baidicoot * (+57) /* Instructions */
19:14:30 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80562&oldid=80561 * Baidicoot * (+2) /* Instructions */
19:16:11 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80563&oldid=80562 * Baidicoot * (+83) /* Instructions */
19:17:05 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80564&oldid=80563 * Baidicoot * (+79) /* Implementations */
19:19:21 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80565&oldid=80564 * Baidicoot * (+35) /* Implementations */
19:24:16 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80566&oldid=80565 * Baidicoot * (+42) /* Haskell */
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21:24:58 <esowiki> [[Qwote]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80567&oldid=59000 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Implementation(s) */ Mention existing implementations; cats
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21:42:43 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80568&oldid=80518 * Not applicable * (+127) added window manager to stuff
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22:59:37 <fizzie> "A query on a continuous aggregate will, by default, use real-time aggregation (first introduced in TimescaleDB 1.7) to combine materialized aggregates with recent data from the source hypertable." So shiny.
23:00:14 <fizzie> (Been looking for a reasonable time-series database, after having given up on Graphite and InfluxDB in the past.)
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23:24:44 <shachaf> Why did you give up on them?
23:25:13 <shachaf> Hmm, I've been thinking a bunch about a query language for relational data that would be nicer than SQL.
23:25:21 <shachaf> I should probably think about time series data too.
23:27:02 <fizzie> I'm not sure I remember all the details, and the reasons might not have been particularly reasonable.
23:27:04 <zzo38> One alternative to SQL might be Tutorial D, although I have not worked with it.
23:27:30 <fizzie> For example, I think I gave up on InfluxDB because it was constantly using 2-3% of CPU time of the machine it was running on even when not doing anything.
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23:28:45 <fizzie> For Graphite, I think I just found it annoyingly inflexible w.r.t. labels and such, and also complicated to configure. If memory serves, you had to put everything in a slash-separated metric name.
23:29:33 <int-e> "Don’t worry about cardinality."
23:30:20 <shachaf> By the way, I found out about perf top recently. Did you know about it?
23:30:38 <fizzie> TimescaleDB, as far as I've understood so far, is a PostgreSQL extension, and I used to kind of understand PostgreSQL. Also, the idea of being able to write SQL kind of sounds like it'd be like using [REDACTED] and [REDACTED].
23:31:23 <fizzie> Oh, I guess Dremel isn't redacted.
23:31:44 <fizzie> And F1 isn't redacted either, so never mind those redactions.
23:34:57 <fizzie> Looks like "from the release of the 1.1.x series", Graphite's learned about tags, so that criticism is probably no longer valid. (Also, the metric path was '.'-delimited rather than '/'-delimited.)
23:35:01 <zzo38> I know to work SQLite, but I don't know how the time scale queries will be needing.
23:37:48 <shachaf> Man, using Dremel was part of what got me in the anti-SQL mood.
23:38:58 <fizzie> I can see how it could. But it hasn't for me.
23:40:36 <Hooloovo0> perf is a really useful tool, as long as your stuff is supported... which is only really the case for major architectures
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23:42:54 <fizzie> shachaf: Did you see that musical?
23:43:30 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean, so probably not?
23:43:35 <fizzie> shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhpASkz0JU0
23:44:28 <fizzie> It's a bit long. And maybe in questionable taste for some parts. But I did find it amusing too.
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00:31:22 <shachaf> fizzie: A bit surprising that it was published.
00:33:06 <fizzie> I found that a bit surprising too. But it's there in the public YouTube. And I've not heard of any sort of crackdown, and it's been a week.
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00:34:36 <shachaf> But whenn are they going to make the 5TB video public?
00:36:40 <rain1> do you woik at google?
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03:49:34 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80569&oldid=70776 * Salpynx * (+758) Some thoughts on Encoding vs. Computation
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04:43:52 <jr> Anyone have a proof that this is Turing-complete? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization!
04:44:20 <jr> In particular, I'm interested in the instruction set <>+? where ? denotes skipping the next instruction.
04:45:02 <jr> Don't care about I/O for now.
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05:11:05 <Sgeo> "Closures are self-contained blocks of functionality that can be passed around and used in your code. Closures in Swift are similar to blocks in C and Objective-C and to lambdas in other programming languages."
05:11:24 <Sgeo> Had to look up C blocks... it's a Apple specific extension to C.
05:12:18 <adu> I had to add those to my C parser
05:12:37 <adu> because stdio.h has them on mac
05:24:44 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
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05:32:49 <Sgeo> https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/celtic-religion-overview
05:32:56 <Sgeo> " For example, several of the feinnidi were born of mothers in animal form, and the Fian's great hounds, Bran and Sgeolang, had a human mother."
05:33:59 <Sgeo> I... think it's usually supposed to be Sceolang?
05:34:35 <Sgeo> "BRAN (2) One of the sons of Tuireann also bore this name, born to her when she had been turned into a wolfhound by her husband's envious mistress. Both Bran and his brother Sgeolang/Sceolang were born in this form and became the faithful hounds of Fionn mac Cumhaill (cf)"
05:34:39 <Sgeo> https://hubpages.com/education/LIFE-ON-THE-FRINGE-11-Boann-two-Brans-Brigid-and-Supporting-Cast
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05:55:19 <Sgeo> I feel weird about Swift documentation being on apple.com
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06:58:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GrapeApple * New user account
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07:08:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80570&oldid=80557 * GrapeApple * (+133) /* Introductions */
07:19:07 <esowiki> [[User:GrapeApple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80571 * GrapeApple * (+12) Created page with "Hello World!"
07:19:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SansTheComic * New user account
07:19:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AviFS * New user account
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07:22:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80572&oldid=80570 * SansTheComic * (+112) /* Introductions */
07:28:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80573&oldid=80572 * AviFS * (+214) Added AviFS
07:28:34 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80574&oldid=14157 * AviFS * (+29825) Copy/pasted documentation from author's reference implementation: https://github.com/catseye/Cabra/blob/master/doc/cabra.html
07:48:37 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80575&oldid=80574 * AviFS * (-27) Fixed link
07:58:24 <esowiki> [[IDK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80576 * GrapeApple * (+25) Created page with "<h1>work in progress</h1>"
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09:08:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:HTPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80577 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+105) Created page with "This is the talk page for [[HTPL]]. Feel free to add your comments, feedback or whatever you think of it."
09:15:09 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80578&oldid=79454 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+78) /* Syntax */ clarified switch
09:15:58 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80579&oldid=80578 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+3) /* Syntax */
09:17:07 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80580&oldid=80579 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+52) /* Syntax */
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10:20:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:HTPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80581&oldid=80577 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+723) /* Infallibility? */ new section
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10:29:53 <esowiki> [[User:ThisIsTheFoxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80582&oldid=78093 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0) /* HTPL / HTPF */
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10:32:05 <esowiki> [[User:ThisIsTheFoxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80583&oldid=80582 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (-72) /* About Me */
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13:48:07 <esowiki> [[IDK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80584&oldid=80576 * SansTheComic * (+93)
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14:02:37 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80585&oldid=80575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4182) Use wikitext (hope I didn't break anything)
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14:27:48 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80586&oldid=80534 * Digital Hunter * (-3) /* Fibonacci numbers */ Silly bug!
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15:05:18 <fizzie> Heh, this system has states "INVALID" and "NONINVALID".
15:16:07 <fizzie> No, just a random local government website.
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15:29:06 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80587&oldid=80580 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Hello World */ Fix; link
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15:42:40 <ais523> ooh, I think I just found a gcc bug
15:43:21 <ais523> gcc compiles "a - (b * b)" (where a and b are doubles) to a fused multiply-add instruction with -O3 -fno-fast-math -ffloat-store -mavx -mfma
15:44:39 <ais523> which produces a result that's more accurate than the C standard and compiler settings allow (it's supposed to round after the multiplication)
15:44:55 <ais523> actually I should be using -fexcess-precision=standard, not -ffloat-store, but it comes to the same thing either way
15:45:42 <myname> wait, the c standard doesn't define shit about mostly anything but it has an upper bound on how precise computational results have to be?
15:46:11 <ais523> C99 was aimed at scientific computing so it has a lot of information about floating-point rounding
15:47:44 <ais523> same thing happens with #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT 0 specified explicitly
15:48:12 <LKoen> freaking compilers being zealously precise
15:48:55 <ais523> I think the problem happens because excess precision is something that compiler-writers don't think about much because their internal representations don't distinguish between excess-precision and standard-precision floats
15:49:02 <ais523> hmm, let me try this on clang
15:49:47 <ais523> ooh, clang seems to respect the pragma, at least
15:50:09 <LKoen> can you imagine if your friend runs an errand for you and you have to pay them back and they say it's 46.56 euros and they insist you pay them back precisely
15:50:34 <LKoen> rather than just taking your 50 euro note, they insist on manipulating copper pieces
15:50:36 <ais523> yep, if I #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT OFF or #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT ON it changes clang's output appropriately
15:50:46 <LKoen> clang is pretty good at the warning game
15:50:59 <LKoen> I'm sure it could warn you if it accidentally was too precise
15:51:04 <ais523> but gcc doesn't respond to the pragma
15:51:21 <LKoen> being afraid of too much precision doesn't sound very pragmatic
15:51:24 <ais523> really the problem is that C doesn't have any way to say "excess precision is OK in this small subset of an expression"
15:51:41 <ais523> all you can do is say that it's OK everywhere, or nowhere, within a given statement
15:53:44 <ais523> floating point math would be so much easier to do sensibly if your language explicitly marked must-round and may-round locations within an expression
15:54:24 <ais523> anyway, this all came out of an investigation I'm doing into how languages and compilers handle expressions that have obvious meanings but have issues with the range of the data type you're using
15:54:43 <ais523> for example, how do you take the average of two size_t values in C (rounding towards 0)?
15:58:29 <ais523> the best I can do is (x >> 1) + (y >> 1) + (x & y & 1), which a) is really unintuitive, b) isn't optimised correctly by the compilers I tested
15:58:54 <ais523> (you'd want it to optimise into mov, add, rcr, ret, but compilers can't figure that out)
15:59:44 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure the reason that the compilers get this wrong is that a) C doesn't give any way to specify that you want a 65-bit intermediate value in an expression), b) the compilers' intermediate representation doesn't allow for 65-bit arithmetic either
16:00:14 <ais523> even though c) almost every processor I've seen has some convenient way to handle the extra bit when you need it
16:13:49 <fizzie> I wonder if you could express that in terms of GCC's __builtin_uaddll_overflow or whatnot to get a more reasonable assembly output. Maybe not.
16:14:16 <fizzie> (It'd give you a name for the outgoing carry bit, at least.)
16:15:41 <ais523> you can definitely express it but I'm not sure whether the compiler finds the optimization
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16:20:42 <ais523> with that, gcc reads the carry flag, but doesn't manage to optimize out the if statement
16:21:09 <ais523> oddly, it produces different asm when I OR with 0x8000000000000000, and when I add 0x8000000000000000
16:22:30 <ais523> clang, meanwhile, produces the same code in both cases, but it's kind-of horrible
16:23:06 <ais523> it manages to avoid the jump, but it does so using a cmov, and it does the addition twice (once to calculate the bottom 64 bits using lea, and a separate time to calculate the carry using add)
16:27:15 <ais523> gcc's code with | looks like it would be pretty efficient if branch-predicted correctly (but not as good as an rcr)
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16:39:24 <fizzie> I once wrote some code for a TI DSP (coursework back in university), it was natively 16-bit but it had two accumulator registers both 40 bits wide. TI had a C compiler for it, but I don't remember at all how it could cope with that. Maybe there was a special custom 40-bit type; the standard types were all normal (16-bit char, short and int; 32-bit long).
16:39:59 <fizzie> Maybe the idea was just that you'd use their handwritten assembly building blocks, and C just for wiring things up.
16:40:33 <ais523> I once used a "C" compiler that targeted microcontrollers, which had very weird string behaviour
16:41:05 <ais523> I think that if you called a function with a string literal as argument, it replaced that with a number of repeated calls to the function, giving it one new character each time
16:41:43 <ais523> also, the licensing was somewhat muddled, it attempted to be software-enforced shareware, but was gcc-derived
16:42:38 <ais523> so I could just look at the source to see where the license check was, then (legally) patch it out
16:44:37 <APic> GPL Violations suck
16:45:13 <ais523> it wasn't a GPL violation, just an attempt to trick people who didn't know better into paying for GPL executables
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22:24:09 <esowiki> [[Photon (Quintopia)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80588 * Quintopia * (+10650) Created page
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22:33:10 <esowiki> [[Photon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80589&oldid=69394 * Quintopia * (+86) link
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23:08:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Photon (Quintopia)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80590 * IFcoltransG * (+420) Added note about redactions
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23:32:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80591&oldid=80549 * Quintopia * (+25) /* P */
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01:17:08 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I... think it's usually supposed to be Sceolang? <-- argh.
01:17:32 <oerjan> feel free to include something suitably celtic in the entry
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01:19:19 <Sgeo> My knowledge of Celtic anything is limited to the existence of a dog named Sceolang and that Enya has music related to Celtic culture.
01:20:49 <oerjan> i didn't know about the dog but i've been aware of a dog of dogs
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01:56:07 <nakilon> 05:00:38 <nakilon> how I think that if I take some existing library ...
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01:57:03 <nakilon> the only thing I've found is https://www.cis.uni-muenchen.de/~schmid/tools/TreeTagger/
01:57:55 <nakilon> and compared to mystem (that is Russian only) it gives to little information that my plan didn't work well
01:59:07 <nakilon> the automated tagging appeared to be only 45% accurate
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03:28:46 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80592&oldid=80525 * Erinius * (+110)
03:35:31 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80593&oldid=80584 * GrapeApple * (-35)
03:45:19 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80594&oldid=80593 * GrapeApple * (+97)
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04:34:46 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80595&oldid=80594 * GrapeApple * (+1137)
04:36:25 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80596&oldid=80595 * GrapeApple * (-15) /* Language */
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04:41:23 <b_jonas> ais523: if it's C11 mode then try #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT OFF
04:48:03 <b_jonas> "<ais523> really the problem is that C doesn't have any way to say "excess precision is OK in this small subset of an expression" => it does: enable -fexcess-precision=standard or -std=c11 for standard behavior, then use an assignment or cast to force a value without excess precision. that's documented.
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04:50:42 <b_jonas> "for example, how do you take the average of two size_t values in C (rounding towards 0)?" => Hacker's Delight suggests (x & y) + ((x ^ y) >> 1)
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04:55:06 <b_jonas> but you're probably right that the hand-written assembly might work better here
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06:17:04 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80597&oldid=80596 * GrapeApple * (-32) /* Language */
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09:54:05 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80598&oldid=79780 * Maxi * (+453) /* Other */
09:54:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80599&oldid=80598 * Maxi * (-586) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
09:54:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80600&oldid=80599 * Maxi * (+586) /* Other */
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10:49:21 <nakilon> with this p-o-s tagger results are even worse: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ark/TweetNLP/
10:50:09 <nakilon> maybe because they use only one char long tags
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12:42:23 <esowiki> [[Flame]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80601 * CatLooks * (+76) Created page with "'''Flame''' is a programming language created by [[User:CatLooks|CatLooks]]."
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13:15:39 <nakilon> results of these one https://code.google.com/archive/p/hunpos/ are close to tree-tagger; this one https://textblob.readthedocs.io/en/dev/index.html worked for me as bad as ARK
13:32:02 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80602 * Gilbert189 * (+4679) Created page with ":''Note that I have horribly translated this page just for the heck of it. The original text should be available.'' :''Remember, this is just an example. Dictionary, syntax, e..."
13:34:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Horribly Translated BASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80603 * Gilbert189 * (+4830) Created page with "==Original text== :''Note that this is only an example. The keywords, syntax, and any other should not be exactly like this.'' Horribly Translated BASIC is BASIC but horribly..."
13:36:21 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80604&oldid=80602 * Gilbert189 * (+33)
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13:39:27 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80605&oldid=80604 * Gilbert189 * (+77)
13:40:22 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80606&oldid=80605 * Gilbert189 * (+27)
13:42:23 <esowiki> [[SQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80607&oldid=80276 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Opcodes */ Categories
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17:04:51 <esowiki> [[BSS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80609&oldid=80395 * CatLooks * (+2335)
17:22:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80610&oldid=80146 * Hakerh400 * (+221)
17:24:23 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80611&oldid=80610 * Hakerh400 * (-36)
17:26:09 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80612&oldid=80611 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
17:30:23 <b_jonas> apparently I can't type "quest". my fingers finish it as "question".
17:35:06 <int-e> typing of questionable quality
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18:14:02 <shachaf> What are some interesting Las Vegas algorithms that aren't SAT or that kind of search problem?
18:14:29 <shachaf> There are a lot of randomized algorithms, like randomized quicksort or something, but those finish quickly with such high probability that they barely count.
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18:43:11 <fizzie> Is "hammersmith" the kind of smith that makes hammers, or the kind of smith that uses hammers to make other things (possibly also including hammers)?
18:44:09 <fizzie> It seems to be a maker of hammers, if wiktionary is to be believed.
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18:49:33 <int-e> two more islands, one more friend...
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20:01:38 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: if it's C11 mode then try #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT OFF ← I did, it didn't help
20:01:38 <nakilon> hammersmith sounds like WW2 time German aircraft
20:02:07 <ais523> actually I think I forgot to use -std=c99 / -std=c11 in addition to the pragma, although that's unlikely to matter
20:02:22 <ais523> I tried -fexcess-precision=standard as well, that didn't help either
20:03:55 <ais523> your (x & y) + ((x ^ y) >> 1) suggestion is clever, slightly fewer operations than (x / 2) + (y / 2) + (x & y & 1), although neither is obviously equivalent to ((int65_t)x + (int65_t)y) / 2
20:04:10 <ais523> and at least to me, it's a lot less obvious what it's doing
20:04:38 <ais523> (it works by doing the two half-additions that make up a full-addition separately)
20:07:53 <ais523> it looks clearly better than clang -O3's compilation of the __builtin_uaddll_overflow version
20:08:19 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80613&oldid=80459 * ThatCookie * (+938) Added NyaScript++
20:08:25 <ais523> not clear on whether it's better than gcc's branchy version, it probably depends on how predictable the branch is
20:08:59 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80614&oldid=80613 * ThatCookie * (+1)
20:09:20 <ais523> really, I think in terms of compiler branch hints, a hint that a branch is predictable/unpredictable would be more useful than a hint that a branch is likely/unlikely…
20:12:17 <ais523> predictable branches are very cheap, but unpredictable branches are very costly
20:12:47 <ais523> (assuming that all the code being run is in L1 cache already, which it normally will be for anything performance-sensitive)
20:14:38 <kmc> what would the CPU do with such a hint?
20:15:17 <ais523> not the CPU, the compiler
20:15:32 <ais523> there's often a complex way to avoid generating a branch instruction, by computing all possible branches in parallel
20:15:45 <ais523> this is normally slower if the branch instruction would be fast, but faster if the branch instruction would be slo
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20:20:43 <ais523> e.g. modern compilers targeting x86-64 will compile (x >= 0 ? x : -x) (with x an int) to the equivalent of ({long _Temp = (long)x >> 32; (x ^ _Temp) - _Temp})
20:22:28 <myname> isn't there an abs asm command?
20:23:06 <ais523> there isn't even a floating-point negate, most compilers use an xor to flip the sign bit
20:24:14 <ais523> (I have a suspicion that subtraction from zero may be more efficient, though, although the answer isn't quite the same due how floating point works)
20:24:25 <fizzie> `fabs`, on the other hand, was a thing back when floats were done by x87.
20:24:27 <HackEso> fabs`,? No such file or directory
20:24:41 <fizzie> HackEso: I wasn't talking to you.
20:24:41 <ais523> ah yes, I'm only checking the sse/avx FPU
20:24:58 <ais523> x87 has its own set of commands that are different
20:26:46 <fizzie> Looks like x87 negate was the rather unexpectedly named "FCHS", for "change sign".
20:27:40 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80615&oldid=77788 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+16) added link (awesome lang btw)
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20:29:37 <ais523> huh, the treatement of negative zero seems to be consistent across languages, so maybe subtraction from 0 isn't a *valid* way to negate a floating point number
20:29:59 <ais523> in particular, 0-0 is positive zero
20:30:12 <ais523> -0-0 is negative zero, and -0+0 is positive zero
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20:33:30 <ais523> oh, I didn't try 0+-0, that's also positive zero
20:36:51 <nakilon> in ruby it depends on if the zero is integer or float
20:37:21 <ais523> twos-complement integers don't have a separate +0 and -0 so you will always just get (the only available) zero
20:37:48 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/P1w4/slim
20:37:56 <ais523> but floats are represented as sign-magnitude on almost all commonly used processors, so +0 and -0 have separate representations
20:40:17 <nakilon> seems like in RASEL they are always positive
20:41:37 <fizzie> I've been keeping track of the C23 process every now and then, and the current draft drops support for non-two's-complement integers. And no longer allows a trap representation for two's-complement either, unless there's padding bits. So a signed char will finally have exactly as many unique values as unsigned char.
20:43:55 <nakilon> wait, didn't they both had 256? _OO
20:47:21 <fizzie> Up until now, unsigned char has had two to the power of CHAR_BIT unique values (where CHAR_BIT is 8 or greater), but signed char may have had one less. For ones' complement and sign-and-magnitude, because of the redundant "negative" zero. And for all three allowed representations, even without padding bits, there's one special bit pattern that's allowed to be a trap representation. (Come to think of it,
20:47:27 <fizzie> maybe that was ruled out for character types, though.)
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20:59:57 <ais523> "0 with sign bit flipped" makes for a decent trap representation in practice, but most systems don't want one
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21:02:12 <nakilon> I'm sorry I still don't get it, unsigned were 0..255, signed were -128..+127 -- isn't it the same number 256 of uniq values?
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21:03:22 <fizzie> It would if those were the guaranteed ranges, but signed is allowed to be just -127 .. 127.
21:08:41 <NotApplicable> fizzie: (I just joined so I don't have much context) From my experience its -128 ... +127. Perhaps there's a +0 and a -0?
21:10:08 <fizzie> That's more or less what we were talking about, yes.
21:10:26 <fizzie> C11 6.2.6.2p2: "If the sign bit is one, the value shall be modified in one of the following ways: [explains sign and magnitude, two's complement, ones' complemet]. Which of these applies is implementation-defined, as is whether the value with sign bit 1 and all value bits zero (for the first two), or with sign bit and all value bits 1 (for ones' complement), is a trap representation or a normal value. In
21:10:32 <fizzie> the case of sign and magnitude and ones' complement, if this representation is a normal value it is called a /negative zero/."
21:11:03 <fizzie> With the larger context being that current C23 draft no longer allows that.
21:13:38 <nakilon> so what I was taught in uni back in 2004 wasn't really implemented until C23? lol
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21:15:36 <fizzie> I don't think there were necessarily too many more people using non-two's-complement integers back in 2004 either, but the standard doesn't follow practice that fast.
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21:21:20 <nakilon> god bless hipster languages and bignums
21:23:29 <nakilon> if I knew this before I would not be able to sleep
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21:40:57 <int-e> fizzie: every time I see this I wonder whether there really are architectures like this anymore
21:42:07 <int-e> maybe if you implement signed ints as floats
21:43:10 <int-e> but I'm not sure whether that's really allowed... are int and unsigned int required to have the same size?
21:44:04 <int-e> that's awkward then
21:44:28 <int-e> for this particular (bad) idea
21:44:42 <fizzie> They're even required to have the value bits of the signed type be exactly the same bits of the object representation as the matching value bits of the corresponding unsigned type.
21:45:23 <fizzie> AFAICT, you could have the sign bit of the signed type not be the same bit as the last remaining value bit of the unsigned type, though.
21:45:32 <fizzie> (You'll need at least one padding bit for that.)
21:45:35 <ais523> fwiw, the all-ones representation doesn't make for a good trap representation in one's complement
21:45:50 <ais523> most calculations will naturally produce it when producing a result of zero
21:46:02 <ais523> so it makes more sense for all-zeros to be the trap representation, and all-ones the representation of 0
21:46:45 <ais523> one's-complement is almost as easy to implement in hardware as two's-complement, incidentally (the only difference is what you do with the carry from the top element)
21:46:46 <fizzie> Right, but it also makes sense (and is required) for all-zeros be a valid representation of 0 for the purposes of zeroed memory and such.
21:47:00 <ais523> but I think two's-complement is preferred because it chains better to numbers that are more than one word wide
21:47:13 <fizzie> (Well, maybe if all your integer types were ones' complement, you'd 1-fill your memory instead, who knows.)
21:47:16 <ais523> fizzie: C doesn't require zero-initialised structures to have zeroed memory, does it?
21:47:26 <int-e> oh right, using 0x80...00 as a trap value in 2s complement would make sense
21:47:58 <fizzie> ais523: No, but it does require zeroed memory to be a valid representation of 0 for integer types.
21:48:10 <ais523> one advantage of 0x80…00 as a trap value is that you can't get an integer overflow on division any more
21:48:35 <ais523> it's quite easy to forget that INT_MIN/-1 will overflow the integer range
21:48:36 <int-e> > abs (minBound :: Int)
21:48:38 <fizzie> It also makes `-x` defined for all valid values of x.
21:48:49 <int-e> there's also this (related)
21:49:03 <ais523> fizzie: aww (wrt zeroed memory)
21:49:21 <int-e> > abs (minBound :: Int8) -- human readable
21:49:40 <ais523> I've grown to really hate C, because it attempts to give generic access to a range of processor features, yet it isn't generic enough and is holding back processors from doing things that C can't express or disallows
21:50:00 * int-e somehow doesn't know 2^63 or 2^64 by heart :)
21:50:13 <ais523> I know 4294967296 off by heart (2**32)
21:50:20 <ais523> but not 2**31 or 2**63 or 2**64
21:50:34 <fizzie> (C11 6.2.6.2p4: "For any integer type, the object representation where all the bits are zero shall be a representation of the value zero in that type." It doesn't have to be the "canonical" representation of zero -- that could have some set padding bits, or maybe be the negative one -- but it has to be a non-trap zero.)
21:50:34 <nakilon> Int, Int8... -- there was probably the reason to introduce such type as "byte"
21:51:03 <ais523> it's not that hard to divide 2**32 by 2 in your head
21:51:12 <int-e> I'm sure I knew it all at some point :)
21:51:25 <nakilon> you aren't required to remember the 10-base number
21:51:28 <fizzie> I don't know 2**63 or 2**64 by heart, but I immediately assume anything that starts with 9 or 18 and is about the right length is going to be exactly that.
21:51:53 <int-e> nakilon: of course not... but it wouldn't hurt
21:51:59 <ais523> 1**32 is just 1, isn't it?
21:52:03 <ais523> or did you mean 1<<32?
21:52:22 <nakilon> I forgot to add /s to the end
21:52:37 <fizzie> In fact, I don't remember any of the ones past 16777216, and even that probably just because of the 777.
21:53:14 <nakilon> don't tell me now I'll remember this number too
21:53:52 <ais523> that one comes up in Malbolge and TriINTERCAL
21:54:02 <int-e> 86400 seconds in a day, 1440 minutes
21:54:04 <ais523> sort of the 65536 equivalent
21:54:27 <int-e> 45054 = 0xAFFE, no reason ;)
21:54:33 <ais523> (I think esolangers have collectively decided that a word on a trinary virtual machine is a multiple of 10 trits long)
21:54:51 <ais523> 1114111 == 0x10ffff, the maximum codepoint in Unicode
21:55:19 <nakilon> yeah, 86400 is in my "one post in a day"-filtered RSS feed URL
21:55:35 <int-e> nakilon: well you probably know a lot of random and mostly useless numbers like these
21:55:36 <NotApplicable> This is unrelated, but does anybody know why sometimes `(float 1) = (float 1) - (float 2)` results in the actual answer plus/minus 0.00000001 or 0.11111111 or something along those lines, regardless of the value in either of the variables beforehand?
21:55:57 <esowiki> [[Photon (Quintopia)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80616&oldid=80588 * Quintopia * (+592) /* Computational Class */
21:56:09 <int-e> 86400 though is useful, and a lot of people don't know it...
21:56:09 <ais523> when I was a reserve for the UK olympic maths team, I asked my co-competitors what the largest prime was that they could spell out as digits from memory
21:56:13 <ais523> the most common answer was 65537
21:56:15 <nakilon> int-e my brother was learning Pi
21:56:23 <ais523> and I don't think I have a higher prime memorised either
21:56:28 <int-e> 3.141592...enough :)
21:56:29 <nakilon> I guess he has learned 100 digits
21:56:44 <ais523> some of them could get very deep into pi, though
21:57:00 <int-e> (yes, I didn't even memorize the full calculator value... 10 digits)
21:57:11 <ais523> NotApplicable: I've been looking into floating-point maths a lot, recently
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21:57:38 <ais523> the way to think about it is that a floating-point number is stored internally as an integer times 2 to the power of an integer (either of the integers can be negative)
21:57:53 <nakilon> 00:56:28 <int-e> 3.141592...enough :)
21:58:06 <nakilon> you floored it though instead of rounding
21:58:07 <ais523> so for example, 2.25 would be stored as 9*(2**-2)
21:58:18 <int-e> > (2^2^5 + 1) `mod` 641
21:58:46 <int-e> (I somehow remember that 641)
21:58:54 <ais523> however, both these integers have a limited range (the range on the exponent rarely ends up mattering, but the range on the multiplier is very often relevant)
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21:59:00 <fizzie> 3.141592654 (rounded) is I think what my calculator used to have, so I learned that, and 3.141592653589... (floored) as an extension to that.
21:59:02 <nakilon> maybe there can be a computer based not on binary, not on ternary but on prime numbers
21:59:22 <ais523> so if you end up with an integer overflow on the multiplier, the processor compensates by halving, quartering, etc. the multiplier and adjusting the exponent to match
21:59:35 <int-e> nakilon: yes it's floored and that's still good enough :P
21:59:45 <fizzie> nakilon: Is this leading to some sort of a pun about the word "primary"?
22:00:20 <nakilon> oh, my Pi estimation was floored too? (
22:00:33 <ais523> anyway, if you're adding or subtracting floats, the processor basically has to scale the multipliers to make the exponents the same, and when the exponents are very different, normally one of the multipliers ends up overflowing as a consequence and lots of bits get thrown away
22:00:45 <NotApplicable> so if I make the numbers smaller, it wouldn't overflow
22:01:02 <ais523> smaller, ignoring multiples of 2
22:01:28 <ais523> e.g. 3072 is a very "small" number as a floating point, because it's 3*(2**10) and 3 and 10 are small
22:01:56 * nakilon is glad RASEL does not have float precision errors
22:02:21 <int-e> shachaf: at least I can reasonably estimate the number of islands now... I'll say 590 +/- 3.
22:02:26 <fizzie> The base-2 representation is also why numbers like 0.1 can't be exactly represented as floats.
22:02:44 <ais523> yep, 0.1 isn't an exact integer multiplier of *any* power of 2
22:02:59 <ais523> so it will get rounded to a float that can actually be represented
22:03:10 <fizzie> `! c printf("%.80f", 0.1);
22:03:11 <nakilon> fizzie it was probably an old human mistake to adopt 10 base
22:03:12 <HackEso> 0.10000000000000000555111512312578270211815834045410156250000000000000000000000000
22:03:53 <ais523> fizzie: now I'm curious what the exponent on that one is
22:04:26 <int-e> binary would've been a mistake
22:05:13 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80617&oldid=80586 * Digital Hunter * (-9)
22:06:08 <int-e> decimal really works well enough, except for computers if one isn't careful
22:06:13 <fizzie> 0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625, on the other hand, is exactly 3602879701896397*2^-55.
22:06:26 <ais523> fizzie: thanks for working it out for me
22:06:31 <ais523> I was trying to but wasn't sure of a good approach to use
22:07:17 <int-e> > toRational (10^54 * 0.1)
22:07:18 <lambdabot> 100000000000000020589742799994816764107083808679919616 % 1
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22:08:20 <int-e> > toRational (2^54 * 0.1) * 5^54
22:08:23 <lambdabot> 200000000000000011102230246251565404236316680908203125 % 2
22:08:35 <fizzie> I used bc + scale=100 + tested multiplying that number by some reasonable powers of two, starting from 2^50, until I got an integer result (at 2^55).
22:08:42 <nakilon> (10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000/1)
22:09:04 <int-e> > toRational 0.1 * 10^55 -- err, that was stupid
22:09:05 <nakilon> $ ruby -e 'p (10r**100).to_i'
22:09:05 <nakilon> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
22:09:06 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625 % 1
22:09:30 <lambdabot> 3602879701896397 % 36028797018963968
22:10:12 <int-e> `toRational` is a really terrible function
22:10:15 <HackEso> toRational`? No such file or directory
22:10:18 <nakilon> (3602879701896397/36028797018963968)
22:11:31 <ais523> huh, this just made me realise a parser ambiguity in Rust (0.1 could either be a single number, or field 1 of the integer 0)
22:11:43 <ais523> at least one of the meanings is never going to be useful, so you can resolve it as the other
22:12:04 <ais523> this doesn't come up in most languages, because "1" is not a valid identifier
22:12:14 <ais523> so you can't use it as a method/property name
22:12:24 <ais523> but Rust uses numeric identifiers for anonymous fields of structures
22:12:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: error: <hint>:1:9: error: parse error on input ‘]’
22:13:32 <ais523> it actually shocks me how many ambiguities there are in programming language syntax in general, especially if you don't have a separate lexing stage
22:13:57 <ais523> lots of languages have constructs that could plausibly mean something else
22:15:34 <ais523> ah, /*/, the "toggle comment" construct, beloved of polyglots
22:15:39 <rain1> everything is basically defined by implementation
22:15:49 <fizzie> Go has this thing where, because they dropped the ()s around the controlling expressions of if and friends, expressions that'd want to involve a composite literal, like `if x == T{a,b,c} { ... }`, need to be instead written either `if x == (T{a,b,c}) { ... }` or `if (x == T{a,b,c}) { ... }` to disambiguate the composite literal from the statement's block.
22:16:14 <ais523> !c int a = 4; int *b = &a; printf("%d", 8/*b);
22:16:21 <ais523> `! c int a = 4; int *b = &a; printf("%d", 8/*b);
22:16:29 <ais523> `! c int a = 4; int *b = &a; printf("%d", 8/ *b);
22:16:40 <ais523> I guess this is why we teach people to put spaces in their expressions :-)
22:16:53 <nakilon> everything in undefined in the first place ..D
22:17:43 <ais523> fizzie: Rust gets away with that by not using {} as a subscripting operator
22:18:00 <ais523> JS is very precisely defined, just the definitions are usually not what you are expecting
22:18:54 <nakilon> well it clearly says everything is undefined
22:18:55 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/JYeLWqr.png
22:19:52 <int-e> the browser side (DOM, events) used to be terrible
22:20:26 <ais523> it still is terrible, just more standardised than it used to be
22:20:27 <int-e> the JS language itself is mostly okay
22:20:44 <fizzie> `` echo 'long long long i;' | gcc -x c - # I keep waiting for the day when someone with no sense of humour gets rid of this specific error message
22:20:45 <HackEso> <stdin>:1:11: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
22:20:51 <int-e> ais523: yeah good point
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22:21:03 <ais523> int-e: JS was created by someone who clearly knew what they were doing, but in a timescale too short to do a proper job of it
22:21:25 <ais523> so it has all sorts of shortcuts-to-get-the-implementation-done-faster, like function scope rather than lexical scope
22:21:48 * nakilon sees "jshell" command available in his bash and wonder if it's J SHELL or JS HELL
22:21:49 <myname> modern js is pretty nice if you compare it with pre-ES6
22:23:22 <ais523> this reminds me, a while ago I improved JSFuck down to just a 5-character character set using ES6 features (but losing IO-completeness, although I retained Turing-completeness), but apparently now there are newer JS features that give you IO-completeness (and even DOM-completeness) with just a 5 character character set
22:23:59 <myname> what new features made it possible to remove chars from jsfuck?
22:24:18 <ais523> template strings let you call functions with `` as long as you give them a hardcoded string literal as argument
22:24:34 <ais523> which saves characters because `` is one character twice, as opposed to () which is two different characters
22:25:23 <ais523> the new new feature is the |> pipeline operator, which *also* lets you call functions
22:25:40 <myname> oh i'm not aware of |>
22:25:45 <ais523> and saves one char because > is a comparison operator, so you can get at booleans without needing to add =, >, or some similar character
22:25:55 <ais523> x |> f is equivalent to f(x)
22:26:20 <myname> somebody liked haskell, i guess
22:26:28 <shachaf> Man, they gotta stop adding features to JavaScript.
22:26:51 <ais523> last time I seriously programmed OCaml I was using two different pipeline operators, I forget what the difference was
22:27:02 <ais523> maybe one of them had a built-in map and the other didn't?
22:27:09 <ais523> IIRC one was a builtin and I implemented the other myself
22:27:54 <shachaf> Or at least the version that's in browsers.
22:28:47 <int-e> |> seems such a silly addition...
22:28:57 <ais523> oh wow: https://caniuse.com/mdn-javascript_operators_pipeline
22:29:09 <ais523> apparently |> isn't implemented by *any* common browser
22:29:22 <ais523> I don't think I've ever seen that when looking up the compatibility of a JavaScript feature
22:29:25 <nakilon> in Ruby the new features are added in the way that on meetings guys come up with ideas or community feedbacks as "what if we implement this?" and Matz either says "yes" or "no" -- and sometimes he's in too good mood to allow implementation of a shit the language didn't need on my opinion
22:30:00 <fizzie> "The experimental pipeline operator |> (currently at stage 1) --" makes me wonder what exactly the stages are.
22:30:07 <nakilon> such things that kind of hide the errors, like "let's return nil here instead of raising the exception" -- the community loves it because it's in the mood of web
22:30:24 <ais523> I don't think caniuse supports Node (or other offline JSes like Rhino)
22:30:38 <fizzie> https://github.com/tc39/proposal-pipeline-operator "Warning: The details of the pipeline syntax are currently unsettled. There are two competing proposals under consideration."
22:30:53 <ais523> don't they mean "not settled"? "unsettled" means something else
22:31:36 <fizzie> "Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind", said an Asimov short story.
22:32:13 <myname> i wonder how you would use multiple arguments in pipeline
22:32:24 <ais523> the proposal gives an example
22:32:40 <ais523> but I don't find it very readable, it basically involves wrapping the pipeline stage in a lambda
22:33:05 <ais523> they suggest combining it with https://github.com/tc39/proposal-partial-application
22:33:07 <shachaf> I don't know why they even work on anything other than making browser programming a usable compiler target.
22:33:35 <ais523> it reminds me of Mathematica's #…& operator, but it's actually pretty different
22:34:40 <myname> oh, partial application would be nice
22:35:16 <int-e> ais523: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unsettled looks ambiguous
22:35:32 <shachaf> This is only for something in function argument position, and it lambdifies the immediately surrounding function?
22:35:36 <int-e> I'm sure I've seen "unsettled conjecture" before
22:35:53 <int-e> (which is redundant, but never mind that)
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22:36:06 <fizzie> "Need to write |> _ => for each step in the pipeline." // That looks like one of those horizontal / non-rotated emoticons.
22:36:58 <ais523> it's just a lambda inside a pipeline stage
22:37:07 <ais523> _ => is the lambda (with a funky argument name)
22:37:14 <ais523> and |> is the pipeline operator
22:39:53 <fizzie> The fact that `f(g(?))` is `f(_0 => g(_0))` rather than `_0 => f(g(_0))` makes perfect sense, but I feel like that'd lead to bugs anyway.
22:40:18 <int-e> the competing proposal looks more like a syntactical transformation where foo |> bar is let # = foo [# here unless `foo` uses #] in bar (ML-style non-recursive let)
22:40:21 <fizzie> (Well, maybe it's more likely to not work at all rather than to work wrong.)
22:40:23 <nakilon> fizzie lol at those "Think" magazine rejections: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Asset
22:40:45 <ais523> fizzie: Mathematica's # … & operator gets round the problem by using an & to mark the function you're partially applying
22:41:06 <shachaf> I guess you're encouraged to write g(?) |> f instead.
22:41:08 <ais523> but, it's too general and is even harder to figure out the scope, because the & is placed at the end of the scope you're lambda'ing over but there's no marker for the start
22:41:34 <ais523> shachaf: no, g(?) |> f is equivalent to f(g(?))
22:41:44 <ais523> i.e. the partially applied function is given as an argument to f
22:42:06 <shachaf> Oh, right, I forgot what the goal was.
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22:42:36 <ais523> you'd need a Haskell-style compose operator
22:42:43 <shachaf> I meant you'd write ... |> g |> f
22:42:53 <shachaf> But of course it's all silly in that context anyway.
22:43:11 <ais523> ooh! that's probably the other operator I had, besides |>
22:43:17 <ais523> I must have had both pipeline and compose
22:43:31 <ais523> but an argument-swapped compose
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22:57:28 <shachaf> I was wondering the other day about centralizing handling of all JavaScript events.
22:59:19 <shachaf> So instead of having callbacks that do anything, they'd just add events to a queue, which you'd drain later.
22:59:53 <shachaf> One problem is that if you get multiple events at once, there's no way of knowing, really. You can't ask if there are other events on the queue, as far as I know.
23:00:06 <shachaf> You can process events once per frame or something like that, I suppose.
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23:15:49 <esowiki> [[Photon (Quintopia)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80618&oldid=80616 * Hakerh400 * (-9) fix formatting
23:23:45 <zzo38> I think over the time they have added many good features into JavaScript, such as typed arrays, generator functions, arrow functions, big integers, etc. But, some things they didn't add, such as a goto command, and a alternate call stack capability.
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23:32:55 <zzo38> I don't know what new functions they will add for big integers. They should add 64-bit MOR and MXOR, and also popcount, two log2 functions (one returning a floating number and one returning a integer), Date.bigNow() (in case of future), and functions for reading/writing arbitrary length integers into array buffers.
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23:37:13 <zzo38> I think those idea about partial application are not so good, I thought of other way too they don't seem very good; best probably using arrow functions in the existing way, since the other ways are not general enough
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23:44:28 <nakilon> my client folds these messages, like: "10 users have joined, and 1 user has left"
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23:47:23 <nakilon> also I've applied a CSS to make them barely visible'
23:47:55 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/58qEz5u.png
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00:02:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sethpeace * New user account
00:04:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80619&oldid=80573 * Sethpeace * (+156) Introduced myself.
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00:06:21 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80620&oldid=71458 * Sethpeace * (+31) Clarified limitations of python interpreter
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06:20:29 <HackEso> 1/2:fortran//FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape. \ stume//A stume cowears and goatears you. That is the main reason why the often look so ackward. \ toe//The TOE is the Toe of Everything, from which our universe sprang. \ `revert//`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/>. It is a builtin command so canno
06:20:32 <HackEso> 2/2:t be called from other commands. \ lba//This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
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09:25:02 <esowiki> [[AF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80622&oldid=80354 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+54) added implementation to box
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12:35:48 <HackEso> `5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2.
12:36:10 <HackEso> A w is everything a cow isn't.
12:36:19 <HackEso> `n is an abbreviation for `spam.
12:36:43 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
12:49:23 <fizzie> Ooh, the error message for `-space-anything is pretty confusing, since it tries to execute the empty string as a command. Funny, never noticed that before.
12:49:46 <HackEso> nosuchfile? No such file or directory
12:54:38 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80623&oldid=80597 * GrapeApple * (+234) /* Language */
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14:56:10 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:56:28 <b_jonas> NB. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html didn't seem to have updated, but the strip is there
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15:19:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asodt * New user account
15:30:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> […] neither is obviously equivalent to ((int65_t)x + (int65_t)y) / 2" I think you want uint65_t
15:32:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Short c1rcuit * New user account
15:32:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (I have a suspicion that subtraction from zero may be more efficient, though, although the answer isn't quite the same due how floating point works)" => that's because, weirdly, the additive unit of floating point numbers is minus zero, not zero.
15:35:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80624&oldid=80619 * Short c1rcuit * (+201) /* Introductions */
15:44:08 <b_jonas> "<ais523> yep, 0.1 isn't an exact integer multiplier of *any* power of 2" => which is why all sorts of programming lists keep getting emails like "your interpreter is buggy, it says that 0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3", and, as I learned the hard way, if you find an actual bug that comes from the programmer being careless with floating point arithmetic, you have to alter your bug report so it clearly isn't one of
15:44:14 <b_jonas> those emails, or else it will be ignored
15:52:55 <b_jonas> ais523: is this JSFuck improvements thing documented anywhere? and how is the |> operator relevant? even if the > operator helps, isn't | basically a wasted character other than that?
15:56:24 <b_jonas> I think that pipeline operator thing sounds like one of those features that makes beginner coders write unreadable code, and spend an inordinate amount of time posting questions about "how do I do <foo> with the pipeline operator" when in fact they shouldn't be using the pipeline operator at all
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16:29:42 <Sgeo> New OOTS also didn't show up in RSS
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16:38:15 <int-e> there's only one explanation for this: time travel
16:41:19 <b_jonas> int-e: my guess is that there's insufficient automation and they forgot some manual step in uploading the strip. something like that happened to DMM recently.
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16:45:56 <int-e> b_jonas: I think my explanation is more interesting
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17:28:37 <int-e> oh... another AME mechanic
17:45:29 <int-e> maybe I should write "interaction" instead of "mechanic"
18:03:12 <b_jonas> what's AME? is that the puzzle game with the cats and chairs and islands?
18:09:30 <int-e> hmm. well mostly trees and islands and water and rafts
18:09:55 <int-e> there are exhibits though... cats and chairs may feature in those
18:10:02 <int-e> A Monster's Expedition
18:11:33 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ame-new.jpg ... original situation to the left; result of knocking over the tree to the right
18:11:45 <int-e> guess the last result :)
18:12:11 <int-e> (or glance at https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ame-news.jpg)
18:16:37 <int-e> shachaf: I'm beginning to think that there may be 600 islands, exactly
18:17:54 <int-e> (by the game's count, so some connected landmasses count as several islands)
18:20:50 <int-e> b_jonas: actually your list seems like a mix of AME (islands), {5,n}-step Steve (cats) and Hiding Spot (chairs).
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18:54:17 <nakilon> so while my first attempt to automate the tagging with the IRC messages training set size of 10 had only ~40% accuracy I've tried 4 different NLP tools and 8 combinated approaches to reach the accuracy of 60% and 80% with the training set size of 50
18:55:45 <nakilon> and now I guess I made an automated search for a "bad entries of the training set" that I might need to correct/improve to improve the quality https://dpaste.org/KisW/slim
18:56:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80625 * Hakerh400 * (+3091) Conjectures
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18:58:06 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80626&oldid=80197 * Hakerh400 * (+65) Conjectures
18:59:22 <nakilon> what I don't like is that bash piping does not break the chain if some piece didn't exit with 0 status code
18:59:43 <nakilon> quick googling didn't provide any simple solution
18:59:59 <rain1> set -euf -o pipefail
19:05:41 <nakilon> oh, I forgot about it, thanks
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19:26:10 <HackEso> smlist 519: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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19:38:11 <vndr> https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/48349/is-this-variant-of-bitwise-cyclic-tag-turing-complete
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19:47:37 <nakilon> funny how SO thought "hm, we wanted to have a place for programmers, not coders" and made Programmers.SE
19:48:05 <nakilon> then they thought "damn, it's still coders, we need another one" and made CSTheory.SE
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20:08:12 <myname> what's the difference between a coder and a programmer?
20:09:53 <rain1> coders code, programmers program
20:09:59 <esowiki> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80627&oldid=80609 * CatLooks * (+22)
20:11:26 <kmc> neither one is CS theory
20:11:28 <kmc> which is closer to math
20:11:45 <kmc> really it is math
20:12:01 <rain1> the math of algorithms and stuff..
20:12:11 <rain1> as opposed to like
20:12:16 <rain1> the science of how computers work
20:12:25 <rain1> electricity and RAM and whatever
20:12:45 <kmc> "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." - Edsger Dijkstra
20:13:11 <kmc> I think "informatics" is a better name
20:13:26 <rain1> <writes computer science on a blackboard and then crosses it out> - abelson
20:14:20 <int-e> write "computer science", then cross out "computer", then cross out "science"
20:14:22 <esowiki> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80628&oldid=80627 * CatLooks * (+35)
20:14:40 <kmc> sure the most popular sort of computers use electricity but you can also build computers out of pneumatic tubes, or strands of DNA or whatever, and apply the same concepts from "computer science"
20:14:56 <kmc> therefore the stuff specific to electricity is better seen as part of electrical engineering
20:15:03 <myname> kmc: informatics is exactly what it's called in german
20:15:34 <myname> i am still confused to how people don't know what informatics is but are perfectly fine with bioinformatics
20:15:44 <kmc> biocomputerscience
20:18:55 <kmc> semiconductor digital logic is really a remarkably strong abstraction
20:18:56 <int-e> DNA data processing
20:19:17 <kmc> it's very rare that programmers at even the lowest level of systems programming need to care about the electrical characteristics of transistors on the chips they're using
20:29:04 <int-e> kmc: kind of reminded of this... https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/ 'Five individual logic cells were functionally disconnected from the rest— with no pathways that would allow them to influence the output— yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones.'
20:31:03 <nakilon> 23:11:45 <kmc> really it is math
20:31:19 <nakilon> but they already have three different Math SE )
20:31:27 <nakilon> for nearly the same reason
20:33:19 <nakilon> 23:12:25 <rain1> electricity and RAM and whatever
20:33:26 <nakilon> but that's now what computer science is about
20:34:39 <kmc> int-e: interesting
20:34:40 <int-e> . o O ( rowhammer )
20:35:00 <nakilon> 23:15:34 <myname> i am still confused to how people don't know what informatics is but are perfectly fine with bioinformatics
20:35:20 <nakilon> they are too busy growing bacterias in Petri dishes
20:35:41 <kmc> meanwhile i'm growing fungi in Petri dishes
20:35:45 <kmc> ...and some bacteria by accident
20:35:46 <int-e> there is the security research corner of computer science that cares a great deal about breaks in the abstraction.
20:36:00 <kmc> int-e: yeah, that is something i've always found interesting about security as a field
20:36:21 <kmc> successful attacks often involve cleverness at multiple layers of abstraction, breaking the tidy assumptions which separate them
20:37:09 <nakilon> > yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones
20:37:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:42: error: <hint>:1:42: error: parse error on input ‘of’
20:37:35 <kmc> and this means exploits are often /funny/ too
20:37:39 <nakilon> I remember how in my C++Builder code there was a "int i;" that wasn't used but if I delete it the program crashed
20:37:59 <kmc> because cleverly subverting expectations is core to much of humor
20:38:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80629&oldid=80591 * Short c1rcuit * (+13) Added Defunc to the language list
20:38:30 <kmc> nakilon: lol
20:39:12 <kmc> yeah the abstraction boundary of C or C++ has big gaping holes labeled "undefined behavior" and if you stray into those areas then truly spooky action at a distance is not just possible but expected
20:39:58 <nakilon> I feel like for some reason compiler were just too buggy 15 years ago
20:40:14 <kmc> a beginner C programmer curses the segfault; an expert thanks the gods for a segfault because it is the best and easiest to debug consequence of UB
20:40:15 <int-e> kmc: https://www.minitool.com/news/hdd-use-as-rudimentary-microphone.html comes to mind as a surprising (yet understandable) sidechannel
20:40:40 <int-e> and yeah, security research is full of these kind of things
20:43:48 <nakilon> there are tools to receive AM radio signal on Macbook somehow
20:43:57 <nakilon> it somehow interferes with CPU
20:44:46 <kmc> I wonder if the five 'disconnected' logic cells in that FPGA experiment were really interacting with the active logic or if they were necessary just to influence the place-and-route algorithm into a configuration that produces the right timings
20:45:16 <kmc> cause the way it describes the rest of the circuit (asynchronous, lots of oscillating feedback) would make it very timing dependent
20:46:07 <kmc> as indeed it would have to be to fulfill its purpose as a frequency discriminator
20:46:25 <nakilon> not even receiver but AM transmitter! https://github.com/fulldecent/system-bus-radio
20:46:38 <kmc> to really understand the meaning of the experiment you would have to dig into the structure of that particular FPGA
20:46:43 <nakilon> unfortunately I don't have an AM receiver to test it
20:47:25 <kmc> seems like an update of http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/
20:48:51 <kmc> i've definitely picked up sounds coming out of my laptop's circuitry on my UHF ham radio
20:49:08 <kmc> also when i transmit on that radio it would turn on the motion-sensitive floodlights on the back deck at my old apartment
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20:55:03 <kmc> you can connect a wire to a Raspberry Pi GPIO pin and send shortwave radio transmissions around the world https://github.com/JamesP6000/WsprryPi
20:56:55 <kmc> (though you should include a low-pass filter to avoid radiating harmonics)
20:59:52 <kmc> it is pretty neat how simple / cheap / small / low-power you can make a shortwave radio transciever and have global communications without any sort of infrastructure in the middle
21:01:39 <TheLie> kmc, That's the ham radio version of home automation i suppose
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21:59:15 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80630 * Short c1rcuit * (+3286) Added Defunc
22:00:35 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80631&oldid=80630 * Short c1rcuit * (-24) Replaced factorial program with a more efficient one
22:04:19 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80632&oldid=80462 * Short c1rcuit * (+122) Added Defunc to the list
22:13:22 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80633&oldid=79988 * Sethpeace * (+11) Fixed code formatting
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22:13:40 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80634&oldid=80633 * Sethpeace * (+1) grammar
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22:17:12 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, #esoteric was playing *three* puzzle games, not just two?
22:18:32 <int-e> b_jonas: more. somebody touched Baba is You, I think
22:19:20 <int-e> and I may have talked about Pipe Push
22:20:00 <int-e> Though I think nobody else played/plays it so I didn't say much about it beyond some initial discoveries.
22:21:00 <int-e> oh right, I played exapunks recently too
22:21:05 <nakilon> (stupid old macOS bug that when you switch from the app with different active keyboard layout it does not switch in time when you start typing)
22:21:12 <int-e> talked about it to fizzie, mostly
22:21:55 <nakilon> people are having weekly contests in Opus Magnum on reddit
22:21:57 <int-e> b_jonas: well, the point is... we really have a lot of those games :P
22:22:38 <nakilon> personally I liked the TIS-100 and Infinifactory the most
22:23:00 <int-e> but infinifactory didn't know when to stop
22:23:52 <nakilon> neither Opus Magnum and Spacechem did
22:25:03 <int-e> At least for me, the "Atropos station" levels were a burden, and the "The homeward fleet" products were all way too big to even attempt planning out.
22:25:44 <nakilon> ah you mean the number of levels? I don't remember where I stopped
22:25:49 <fizzie> I think I played Spacechem at least very close to all the way through.
22:25:54 <fizzie> Opus Magnum I haven't played.
22:26:21 <int-e> it's not the number of the levels, it's the size/complexity of the solution
22:26:47 <fizzie> Yeah, I definitely did that laser thing at least.
22:27:05 <fizzie> (Very terribly, but still.)
22:30:49 <int-e> Oh right, I uninstalled Infinifactory a few weeks ago. Good choice.
22:31:54 <nakilon> at least it was the one Zachtronics game that had a story
22:31:59 <int-e> Don't get me wrong though... except for the last 2 sets the levels were mostly fun.
22:32:22 <nakilon> not boring text dialogs like in Opus Magnum but you was playing it in first person like in a sci-fi movie
22:32:30 <int-e> I just prefer games that end before they become a chore.
22:32:46 <nakilon> listening to messages left by other sotry characters
22:32:51 <rain1> i liked the text in opus agnum
22:33:01 <int-e> Which is a hard balance to strike because the point where things become a chore is very subjective.
22:35:09 <kmc> why would I play Shenzhen I/O when I could play KiCad
22:35:58 <zzo38> Some games can be infinite or infinitely replayable; other kinds it doesn't work so well.
22:36:08 <nakilon> Shenzhen was too complex though
22:36:38 <zzo38> Perhaps, also, make up your own game, too.
22:37:00 <int-e> Oh I actually found something from Infinifactory... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2018-09-19-04-38-28.gif
22:37:20 <zzo38> (I have also done, and am also in the process of making a game engine too. But, you could also do, if you want to do.)
22:37:32 <nakilon> these games have Steam Workshop where people are making puzzles for each other -- I think Portal chambers were fun
22:39:33 <int-e> (that was by far the weirdest assembly gadget I made... as I recall it, it only worked at one particular speed)
22:39:44 <nakilon> I started making own not necessary "game" but "visualisation" engine in ruby2d but it's segfaulting, lol
22:40:15 <nakilon> and Dragonruby that people use to create games for Itch.io -- it's mruby that is too limited as for me, no gems, etc.
22:40:28 <nakilon> no even normal file and network interfaces
22:42:06 <zzo38> There are other systems to try to write the game on too, including ZZT, NES/Famicom, Glulx, or just using C codes with SDL or curses
22:42:44 <nakilon> ruby2d (and probably Dragonruby too) is built on top of SDL
22:44:14 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkMqUPJU4Bc
22:45:47 <zzo38> (Or, you can program in DOS)
22:46:04 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80635&oldid=80592 * Erinius * (+26)
22:52:19 <zzo38> Have you used any of the other stuff that I have mentioned?
22:53:28 <nakilon> I used curses for a tcpdump wrapper back in 2013
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23:13:18 <fizzie> Story-wise, the bit I liked about EXAPUNKS is that the chatroom simulation felt very realistic, like it was just real IRC logs.
23:14:45 <int-e> exapunk also managed the chore level nicely for me... in particular, the main story ended and it was clear that the larger tasks that followed were bonus tasks
23:16:06 <int-e> but yeah, I alson liked the exapunk chat logs. and the "zines" too.
23:16:23 <nakilon> everything is a nobus task
23:17:17 <int-e> fizzie: oh and let's not forget the easter eggs (switching off the lights in the pizza parlour...)
23:18:21 <int-e> oh well, bedtime I suppose
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23:46:23 <someoneelse> nakilon, what are you doing here on #esoteric?
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01:09:56 <nakilon> so it gave me the "possible bad entries of the training set" and also proposed way to fix them -- when I fix the worst one the accuracy jumps up in several percents, lol
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01:44:19 <nakilon> actually it is annoyed the most about messages that are grammatically incorrect so I wasn't going to but I made an automatic grammar errors detector ..D
01:45:51 <nakilon> and actually the error appeared to be not by the chat user but by my script that has processed the logs from the website
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01:46:43 <nakilon> so it's able to detect error not only in the training set but even in its source code ..D
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03:10:10 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80636&oldid=76170 * Randairox * (-331) i'm vanishing from the face of this earth. the repo's gone with me
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03:32:10 <zzo38> Why is there a gap in the red part of the temperature?
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04:18:16 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80637&oldid=80617 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Commands and keywords */ typo!
04:22:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80638&oldid=80637 * Digital Hunter * (+13) /* Hello, world! */
04:41:13 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80639 * Salpynx * (+6397) sorry... this exists
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07:30:07 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80640 * Hakerh400 * (+5102) +[[Substitution]]
07:30:11 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80641&oldid=80629 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Substitution]]
07:30:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80642&oldid=80626 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Substitution]]
07:33:44 <zzo38> I should probably to add a level export format for Free Hero Mesh, probably uncompressed, but will need to contain class names and message names rather than relying on the numbers for them, since those numbers may be different when the level is imported later. I don't know if it should be text or binary, and the other possibilities also I didn't know, but should be not too complicated to read/write.
07:47:55 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80643&oldid=80640 * Hakerh400 * (+603) Add an example
07:48:44 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80644&oldid=80643 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
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08:14:26 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80645&oldid=80644 * Hakerh400 * (-150) That was redundant
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09:28:34 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80646&oldid=80645 * Hakerh400 * (+822) Add negation
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09:36:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80647&oldid=80499 * Short c1rcuit * (+33) Added Defunc to the list
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10:06:31 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80648&oldid=80646 * Hakerh400 * (+1852) Add more examples
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11:35:43 <HackEso> super bowl ball? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:36:16 <fizzie> "A Super Ball is observed to reverse the direction of spin on each bounce.[25][26][27] This effect depends on the tangential compliance and frictional effect in the collision. It cannot be explained by rigid body impact theory, and would not occur were the ball perfectly rigid.[27]"
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11:36:21 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80649&oldid=80631 * Short c1rcuit * (+41) Put Defunc into the "Unknown computational class" category
11:36:26 <HackEso> meatball for supper? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:37:22 <fizzie> Can an owl use a segway by perching on the steering arm if it's tired of flying around?
11:37:54 <b_jonas> perhaps if it was circus-trained
11:39:49 <fizzie> What, Super Bowl *is* named after the Super Ball? I thought that was just a coincidence.
11:40:57 <b_jonas> I thought it was named because the trophy for the winning team was called a bowl. Not too descriptive, because some tennis competitions also have trophies that are bowls.
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11:43:14 <Taneb> Apparently it's because theyre used to be a bunch of competitions held in bowl-shaped stadia
11:43:28 <Taneb> Plural of "stadium"
11:43:47 <b_jonas> but isn't American sportsball played in square-shaped fields?
11:43:50 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Bowl_Game
11:43:59 <Taneb> b_jonas: this counts the stands
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13:27:47 <ais523> b_jonas: to get a JS-complete subset of JavaScript you only need +[], some way to create boolean false and true, and some way to call functions
13:28:04 <ais523> in ES5 and earlier that needs three extra characters, e.g. () for function call and ! to create booleans
13:28:30 <ais523> in ES6, you can use ` for function call and = for booleans, but this isn't JS-complete because you can't call the functions with arbitrary arguments (it is TC though)
13:29:03 <ais523> with the new pipeline operator, you can use |> for function call and > to create booleans, which is JS-complete on only five different characters because > was used twice
13:29:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PkmnQ * New user account
13:30:26 <ais523> (the reason you need true and false is to steal letters from their string representations)
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13:50:00 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80650&oldid=80648 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Disjunction */
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14:28:35 <someoneelse> I made a uncomputable turing tarpit based on a crazy concept
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16:48:40 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80651&oldid=80638 * Digital Hunter * (+1470) /* Example programs */ added a digital root calculator program
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17:35:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Obvious * New user account
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17:43:58 <nakilon> weird, there is no channel for bots to talk to each other
17:46:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80652&oldid=80624 * Obvious * (+208) /* Introductions */
17:46:53 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80653&oldid=80649 * Obvious * (+5) Fixed a few example codes
18:02:59 <nakilon> lol, the first phrases of the bot that make sense
18:03:03 <b_jonas> nakilon: we don't practice apartheid, bots can talk on the same channels as non-bots
18:03:41 <b_jonas> do you also want a channel for black people to talk to each other?
18:03:55 <nakilon> b_jonas needs testing though at first until it's done
18:04:06 <nakilon> do black people need testing?
18:05:45 <nakilon> merge requests to start families
18:05:55 <nakilon> integration testing for making friends
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18:35:05 <oren> pandas: staring at 20 GB of data. me: cast it into the fire! destroy it! pandas: no
18:35:39 <oren> cannot convince python to free any memory
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18:51:08 <fizzie> Isn't glibc malloc kind of like the same thing. ;)
18:51:38 <fizzie> (Okay, if you're talking proper big chunks that it mmap'd, it does actually return memory to the system sometimes. And I think also opportunistically if the top of the heap's all empty.)
18:53:22 <int-e> is it too much to hope for that it would madvise stuff away when a large enough chunk of memory becomes free?
18:54:01 <fizzie> I don't think it does that, but it's probably something it could do.
18:54:23 <fizzie> Easier than unmapping, I mean.
18:55:50 <fizzie> fungot: WDYT, should I install Go 1.14 from Debian backports or just 1.15 from the official distribution (and forget about APT), to set up that one thing that needs a Go version >= 1.14?
18:55:52 <fungot> fizzie: the task forces has not been resolved. togo must know that there is widespread support for this coordinated effort to eliminate these cohesion funds in the irish national cancer registry, published in recent days, and therefore do not it seems to the commission and council are of the opinion that in a context where there is a problem and would certainly enhance awareness on the part of big business, has not been amended
18:56:11 <fizzie> I don't think that helped.
18:56:21 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80654&oldid=79444 * Someone else * (-2080)
18:56:27 <fizzie> fungot: Come on, it's the same system you're running on too, surely you must have an opinion?
18:56:27 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, it has in all events, the commission could, in fact, the piece of legislation.
18:59:53 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80655&oldid=80654 * Someone else * (+45)
19:14:07 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80656&oldid=80655 * Someone else * (+6)
19:15:26 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80657&oldid=80656 * Someone else * (+8)
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20:28:53 <esowiki> [[Inject]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1565) Create page (Not Done Yet)
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20:41:01 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80659&oldid=80651 * Digital Hunter * (+1116) /* Example programs */ added a fizzbuzz program
20:41:28 <nakilon> at least he respects you calls a mr. president
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21:41:15 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80660&oldid=80658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1477) Finish page
21:41:45 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80661&oldid=80660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Fix header levels
21:42:20 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80662&oldid=80661 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Hello, world! */ Close tag
21:43:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80663&oldid=80641 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* I */ +[[Inject]]
21:44:04 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80664&oldid=79662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Languages */ +[[Inject]]
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22:07:04 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80665&oldid=78143 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Level 3 */ m
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22:21:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DRH001 * New user account
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22:28:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80666&oldid=80652 * DRH001 * (+112)
22:30:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80667&oldid=80666 * DRH001 * (+58)
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22:41:55 <esowiki> [[Rattle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80668 * DRH001 * (+25672) Creating page for Rattle!
22:43:49 <esowiki> [[Rattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80669&oldid=80668 * DRH001 * (+190) Fixing description
22:51:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80670&oldid=80663 * DRH001 * (+13) Adding Rattle to the language list (I'm currently trying to figure out how to create a page for Rattle)
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01:49:24 <fizzie> When you're forced by an uncaring god to do YAML, and you have a key that's supposed to contain an array under it, do you indent the - that marks each array element or not? Because AFAICT, both "key:\n- foo\n- bar\n" and "key:\n - foo\n - bar\n" are valid.
01:49:46 <fizzie> (And I feel like I'd prefer the former, but this example file does the latter.)
01:50:38 <nakilon> I let my language decide how to format it
01:50:59 <nakilon> and don't usually have such keys _Oo
01:51:46 <fizzie> I'd guesstimate most of not all YAML config files I've come across have at least *one* list of some kind.
01:51:49 <zzo38> Isn't YAML a superset of JSON?
01:52:14 <zzo38> (It does fix some of the problems of JSON, such as, comments are allowed.)
01:52:27 <fizzie> It might be, but I don't think it's a useful view of YAML necessarily, since it looks so different from well-formed JSON.
01:52:30 <nakilon> oh wait I thought you mean the array being a key
01:53:16 <fizzie> No, I just meant {"key": ["foo", "bar"]} in JSON terms.
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01:54:21 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/eEaS/slim
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01:55:30 <shachaf> fizzie: I think they're both valid but I'd probably tend to prefer always indenting the contents of a key.
01:55:49 <fizzie> That's interesting. It's also what the Python YAML dumper makes, and doesn't indent. And I was just leaning towards indenting, because it's what I've seen in examples, and like you mention, there's a consistency argument.
01:55:50 <nakilon> YAML basically gives you some space on your taste, noticed it when configured Github Actions since they are written by hand
01:58:01 <nakilon> I see there are probably indentation options though: https://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.6.3/libdoc/psych/rdoc/Psych.html#method-c-dump
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01:58:52 <nakilon> omg https://dpaste.org/TPOQ/slim
01:59:58 <fizzie> That looks pretty wild.
01:59:59 <nakilon> (that indentation arg appeared do be not relevant)
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02:03:03 <nakilon> I guess once I tried to export something from python and import to ruby and either it didn't work or I used this canonical:true to solve it
02:04:30 <nakilon> YAML libraries tend to have vulnerabilities to be found once in a year so if possible I would also consider TOML some day
02:05:02 <fizzie> I tried to read the YAML spec the other day, and found it very slow going. Kind of thought it would've been simpler.
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02:09:45 <shachaf> I didn't. That's the top reason not to blame me.
02:11:34 <fizzie> I see a sort of familiar-shaped name there, but I didn't even notice, I think I was distracted by wondering whether "Ingy döt Net" actually has that as some sort of a legal name, complete with the ö.
02:11:38 <fizzie> (There's a lot of Finnish names with diaeresis, and it tends to be a problem every now and then with systems that make Assumptions™.)
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02:12:08 <fizzie> (What's the plural of diaeresis? Diaeresises?)
02:12:51 <fizzie> (Apparently, diaereses.)
02:14:44 <nakilon> we have two letters in Russian with these things above them
02:15:40 <nakilon> we put one of them under the '~' that is on the left from '1' and it's so hard to make people press such distant key so mostly we just stopped using it
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02:16:26 <nakilon> it's Е and Ё -- so now there are holywars whether to use Ёё or forget it at all
02:17:14 <nakilon> another one is Йй but it's not in danger, maybe because it had a luck to be placed not so far on a keyboard
02:19:33 <nakilon> oh and since there are 33 letters in Russian alphabet that is just 1 more than 0x20 the alphabet was placed like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOI8-R
02:20:28 <fizzie> The UK keyboard layout uses that faraway key for the backtick ` and the logical not ¬ and, as the only single printed third-level ("AltGr") symbol, the broken bar, except that on this system it just generates the same regular bar that's already got a different key.
02:20:45 <nakilon> you see the codepage does not have Ёё and it was used as some control character in IRC and IIRC Eggdrop IRC bot was crashing because of it or something like that
02:22:44 <nakilon> oh wait, there is Ёё there but it's just in a weird position
02:23:28 <fizzie> We didn't really get a custom code page for an 8-bit encoding, so it was mostly just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_850 for DOS things. Kind of did a number on the line-drawing characters though.
02:25:40 <nakilon> this article mentions 1252
02:26:33 <nakilon> you needed to enable 1251 manually on Win XP or some software might show Russian as ???? ?????? ? ??
02:26:36 <zzo38> If you need to write a YAML file for something that uses YAML but you don't like YAML, you could just as well use JSON instead; and, if you are writing it by yourself (rather than using existing JSON implementation that you might already have) then you can add comments too. It does say YAML is a superset of JSON, so {"key": ["foo", "bar"]} is a valid YAML code as well as JSON.
02:26:58 <nakilon> that was among the actions you want to make after you reinstall windows ..D
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02:28:20 <zzo38> I found one web page that if scripts are not enabled, it displays a link to the documention; that is good. But, the documentation doesn't work without scripts enabled; it just displays nothing.
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13:08:23 <mlhesszV> /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\
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13:09:43 <drhaf> /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\
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13:11:45 <anzuofDp> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:13:04 <Jan\Ni> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:35:06 <fizzie> Heh, wonder how that happened.
13:38:53 <b_jonas> nakilon: I thought using е
13:39:43 <fizzie> Odd selection of channels for the spam, based on my biased view. Saw it on ##c, ##java, #perl, #scheme and #xmonad, but not on #android-dev, ##asm or #go-nuts. I don't think there's any obvious clustering that follows that boundary.
13:39:45 <b_jonas> instead of ё was an old thing that predated computer keyboards, sort of like that French nonsense of not using accents on capital letters, and ё got put in the worst place on the the keyboard because people weren't using it much.
13:39:51 <fizzie> (Oh, and here, of course.)
13:40:19 <int-e> fizzie: 'If opped in your channel you can ask Sigyn to unkline an user, /msg Sigyn unkline <nick>, you have a dozen minutes to do so after the kill/kline, it only works if the user was banned due to abuse detected in your channel.' ... hmm probably too late for that
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13:42:58 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80672&oldid=78597 * Lebster * (+30) /* Online */
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13:49:29 <fizzie> int-e: Also, "it only works if the user was banned due to abuse detected in your channel", and Sigyn's not here.
13:50:06 <nakilon> was scary to be K-lined, lol
13:50:28 <int-e> I was not thinking properly...
13:58:53 <fizzie> Incidentally, I'm pretty sure `#nyymit` is a Finnish channel, from a suffix of the word "anonyymit", plural of en:anonymous, some sort of reference to that internet subculture thing. Not that I imagine they have anything more to do with the spam than ##hamradio.
14:03:08 <b_jonas> yes, we've had problems with Sigyn on our channel so an op eventually banished them
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14:04:40 <fizzie> I think we had Sigyn here briefly, but this channel's so prone to repetitive bot-spam that's "working as intended" that I think there was a worry about that. (I know it's possible to allowlist, but still.)
14:09:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: twitch chat has two of these zealous auto-moderator programs, one maintained by twitch and one third party, that newer streamers sometimes put in their chat channel without knowing exactly what they do, and then have to reconfigure within a week when they find how much it likes to silence people who they don't regard as spammers
14:10:04 <b_jonas> (the first one is twitch automod, the second is nightbot. nightbot can be usable, it's just its default settings that are bad.)
14:12:08 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80673&oldid=80672 * Lebster * (+5) /* Print the Fibonacci Sequence */
14:12:22 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80674&oldid=80673 * Lebster * (-74) /* Python */
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17:45:44 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80676&oldid=78912 * Sethpeace * (+190) Added my interpreter
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18:22:22 <esowiki> [[+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80677&oldid=80676 * Sethpeace * (+4) /* Python */ Now says Python 3 due to incompatibility with Python 2
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21:04:32 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80678&oldid=80634 * TaterTomorrow * (+6) Minor grammar fixes.
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22:00:00 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80679&oldid=80662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) /* Truth-machine */ Cat program
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23:21:45 <zzo38> What should be call the variable that causes the beginning phase and ending phase to be skipped?
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01:26:33 <fizzie> Is there anything at all you could still buy in a grocery store that's a dime a dozen? Hmm, I guess something where a single unit's quite small. But anything you could actually buy exactly 12 of, with a dime?
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02:03:20 <zzo38> I don't know, and I cannot test it at this time, due to the pandemic
02:03:49 <zzo38> (If it is anything, possibly something in bulk)
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02:21:14 <kmc> bulk items are usually sold by weight
02:21:41 <kmc> it might work out to a dime a dozen, but would also depend on the weight of each item, which is usually somewhat variable
02:27:25 <kmc> unrelatedly i noticed today the logo of Raspberry Pi StackExchange looks a bit like everyone's favorite Letter, Other unicode character https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/
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02:28:55 <kmc> today I put a Raspberry Pi in my fridge for an hour
02:29:04 <kmc> powered from a USB power bank
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02:29:28 <kmc> playing around with Mycodo and a temperature/humidity sensor I got
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02:29:50 <kmc> it somehow amuses me greatly to SSH to a computer that is inside my fridge
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02:38:51 <esowiki> [[Arsm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80680 * ZippyMagician * (+5640) Initial version of page
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02:39:07 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80681&oldid=76682 * ZippyMagician * (+10) Add arsm
03:20:26 <Hooloovo0> one time I had a computer that would only wake up from sleep if it was cold. I'd sometimes put it in the fridge for a bit when I got home so I could do that
03:22:26 <kmc> i've heard of putting hard drives in the freezer to save them
03:22:39 <kmc> fixes intermittent contacts on the board through metal expansion or something?
03:23:14 <zzo38> Is there a CSS command to display the page number of an anchor?
03:27:56 <kmc> don't know
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05:09:16 <nakilon> wow, there is such thing as JSON editor with GUI https://tomeko.net/software/JSONedit/
05:23:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Length]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80682 * JonoCode9374 * (+215) /* Swap operator */ new section
05:41:32 <esowiki> [[Silberjoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80683&oldid=79582 * Quintopia * (+8) this example doesn't work on null input
05:52:32 <esowiki> [[Aubergine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80684&oldid=77026 * Quintopia * (-82) Simplification of proof
06:04:43 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80685&oldid=80383 * Quintopia * (+115) dna example explanation
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07:57:23 <b_jonas> nakilon, fizzie: also I don't buy the argument that the backtick key (the one to the left of the 1 key) is far away, given how many people in forums seem to write backticks instead of every apostrophe
08:02:43 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Is there anything at all you could still buy in a grocery store that's a dime a dozen?" => not in a grocery store I believe. about the only items that are cheap enough to buy in a dime in a grocery store here are a box of matches, but that has about 40 to 50 sticks of matches in a box, or possibly twice as much if you can buy two for a dime, or staple baker products, but you can get one or at
08:02:49 <b_jonas> most two for a dime. however,
08:04:41 <b_jonas> I wonder, there may be something you can buy for that price in a paper store or office supply store or post office, but even then I don't think it's possible anymore.
08:04:54 <b_jonas> or a photocopy store maybe.
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08:10:01 <b_jonas> perhaps you could buy something like colored glass toy beads, or screws, or links of a metal chain, or large bearing balls a dime a dozen
08:10:22 <b_jonas> but I don't think you can buy less than a meter of a metal chain
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10:44:18 <int-e> b_jonas: you're not into jewelry, are you
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11:00:05 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not into jewelry
11:00:36 <b_jonas> was that because of the metal chain?
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11:58:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Retro * New user account
12:02:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80686&oldid=80667 * Retro * (+259)
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13:19:29 <esowiki> [[Graverage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80687&oldid=72782 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Computational Class */ cats
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14:55:07 <esowiki> [[Chatlog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80688 * Retro * (+7535) Created page with "[[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] [[Category:2021]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Turing complete]] '''Chatlog''' is an esoteric programming language made by User:Retr..."
14:56:57 <esowiki> [[Chatlog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80689&oldid=80688 * Retro * (+0)
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15:08:30 <nakilon> > given how many people in forums seem to write backticks instead of every apostrophe
15:08:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘in’
15:08:41 <nakilon> maybe in their layout it's not that far? maybe near some Shift?
15:09:14 <nakilon> ` -- actually this one is on the key on the right from the left shift in my current layout
15:09:44 <nakilon> I don't use this key at all though, I prefer big shift and thinking that the next key is Z
15:10:34 <nakilon> lol I've triggered two bots
15:11:46 <nakilon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Physical_keyboard_layouts_comparison_ANSI_ISO_KS_ABNT_JIS.png
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15:13:52 <nakilon> I've use an old keyboard on desktop that has the upper layout -- that's what people used earlier, and Shifts got destroyed only years after that
15:16:17 <nakilon> anyway the thing I told wasn't about the backtick but about the Ёё that is on the same key -- the one under Esc
15:17:40 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, I just said I think substituting е for ё was a thing before most people learned to type on a keyboard
15:17:49 <b_jonas> but I could be wrong about this
15:20:38 <nakilon> quick googling gives three typewriter layouts: one same as modern keyboard: https://media.mts.ru/upload/contents/10544/poviezhivatsya_301120_6.jpg
15:21:01 <nakilon> another one with Ё in the far right bottom https://media.mts.ru/upload/contents/10544/poviezhivatsya_301120_4.jpg
15:21:43 <nakilon> oh, I lost the third one, but it also didn't have Ё at all
15:22:09 <nakilon> so I guess it just didn't have a place yet before computers
15:23:02 <nakilon> ah, they are from this page: https://media.mts.ru/society/124811/
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18:07:47 <kmc> TIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_pumpkins_and_watermelons
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18:28:48 <oren> MLP stands for multilayer perceptron
18:28:57 <oren> not my little pony
18:31:49 <b_jonas> no, it stands for machine language parser
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19:22:37 <myname> there is a political party named MLPD and i always think it has something to do with my little pony
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20:08:05 <fizzie> It stands for Mobile Location Protocol.
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20:37:02 <zzo38> Do any other systems store object references as a pair of index number and generation number?
20:39:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Systems other than what?
20:39:26 <shachaf> I think that's a relatively common scheme.
20:39:44 <zzo38> OK. Although, I know many systems just use pointers.
20:39:58 <zzo38> (Some might use an index number without a generation number.)
20:40:14 <shachaf> Here's one article about it: https://floooh.github.io/2018/06/17/handles-vs-pointers.html
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21:02:29 <zzo38> Yes that works. What I have done is a bit different, although in my case it is involving VM codes, and while each object has a generation number, vacant slots don't; there is a single global generation counter which is incremented during a creation if there was no other creation since the most recent destruction. Another advantage of index/generation pairs is that you can easily find if an object has been destroyed, in case you care abo
21:03:05 <shachaf> Your message was cut off after "care abo".
21:03:25 <shachaf> But use-after-free detection is a nice property.
21:10:31 <zzo38> Not only to detect use-after-free, but in case you need to know if the object exists for some other reason, not only for detecting errors, sometimes.
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22:36:06 <zzo38> In this case, it is Free Hero Mesh is what I am doing, although similar ideas can apply to other systems, whether they use VM codes or not. There are other methods of garbage collections and determining validity of references in some systems, and that is one possibility.
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22:47:11 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80690&oldid=80639 * Salpynx * (+400) at least the output is funny.
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22:55:19 <zzo38> (Most instructions that dereference objects will result in an error if an invalid reference is given, except for ",Destroyed" which will be 1 if given an invalid reference. In this way, it is possible to check for invalid references.)
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23:05:19 <zzo38> (This is different than the Windows version, which does use pointers, and an invalid reference will always crash and cannot be detected.)
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23:35:44 <zzo38> Do you have backups of my public files? I make backups on DVDs, although I don't do that all the time; I only have a limited number of DVDs. Many of my files are Fossil repositories, which it is possible to clone (it is also possible to download only some artifacts, if you implement that by yourself; Fossil does not have the ability to make partial clones, although the protocol does).
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23:37:03 <zzo38> (That is, if you are interested, or know someone who is; if not, ignore this, I suppose)
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01:35:10 <nakilon> don't DVD rot in 10 years or so?
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01:42:15 <GGmahdude> Wiki is saying this is the most active forum even though the discord has 4 times the members
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01:48:53 <zzo38> Having more members does not necessarily make it more active, though.
01:50:39 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if the discord was more active, too.
01:50:58 <fizzie> But the wiki was almost certainly correct when it was written.
01:51:38 <fizzie> (I don't know anything about the discord, or any other discord, in case that sounded like it, I've just understood that to be a common pattern.)
01:52:10 <zzo38> Yes, it also might have been changed over time. However, at least in my opinion, IRC is much better in many ways.
01:52:38 <zzo38> (But, if you want to, you might write, "(as of [date])" in the wiki.)
01:53:59 <GGmahdude> Are the 2003 logs from this forum?
01:54:46 <fizzie> Probably. There are definitely logs from the year 2003 of this channel.
01:56:00 <fizzie> There's also some (not updated since 2016) charts of channel activity, showing that this place peaked around 2010-2011: https://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/activity_lines.html
01:57:26 <fizzie> (I know there's a lot flashier webby graphing frameworks around these days, but there's something quite pleasant about RRDtool output, however clunky it is.)
01:57:46 <GGmahdude> Same time as the esoteric forum got spammed to death
01:58:48 <GGmahdude> Didnt even know there were open sources discord alternatives too
01:58:54 <nakilon> discord is a cancer website that was made popular by intregrating it with League of Legends because their game devs were too lame to implement voice chat so they outsourced it to that website project
01:58:59 <fizzie> The thing that predated this channel was the sange.fi mailing list, and the thing that predated *that* mailing list was the other mailing list, and I don't know what predated that.
02:00:19 <zzo38> I don't like mailing list so much I think that NNTP is better. However, the implementation could be made to support the same messages with both mailing list and NNTP.
02:00:30 <nakilon> they've succeed in making it popular because most of the gamers don't have a clue in software and just weren't told there are already such things as IRC, Quakenet, Teamspeak, etc., and that they don't really HAVE to register themselves on that website and pass all their private messaging via their proprietary servers
02:01:18 <shachaf> Hmm, I think cancer is a lot worse than Discord. Cancer kills millions of people every year, whereas Discord allows millions of people to communicate with each other (even if I have some objections to the specifics).
02:02:44 <nakilon> discord does not allow to communicate -- it's working in the opposite way
02:03:20 <nakilon> if those people who are there were here I would communicate with them but they are not here because they've been told that they have to use Discord since it's the only existing way to communicate in the internet
02:03:37 <zzo38> I don't use Discord either.
02:03:54 <shachaf> I communicate with people using Discord that I wouldn't otherwise.
02:04:02 <shachaf> (Using a third-party client, though, usually.)
02:04:38 <nakilon> probably there are bridges between IRC and that cancer
02:06:11 <nakilon> meanwhile I've finally finished the autotagger -- now the talking thing can learn words from any amount of logs I pass to it
02:06:35 <nakilon> but logs of this channel require a bit of cleaning because there are messages with code, regexes, xml, etc.
02:07:58 <nakilon> the autotagging has 72% accuracy that means there is 28% of potentially grammarly incorrect text pieces
02:11:02 <nakilon> now need to implement the IRC client and something to make responses respect the context
02:11:40 <fizzie> The thing with IRC bridges that's most annoying is how they (at least on the IRC side) make all comments from the other side look like they're coming from the same person. (I'm on one bridged channel, with maybe an 80%/20% split in terms of comments in favour of IRC.)
02:13:01 <shachaf> Discord has many advantages over IRC, such as storing history on the server side, so you don't have to stay constantly connected, and supporting voice.
02:13:12 <shachaf> And being easy for people who just want to chat to use.
02:13:24 <shachaf> You gotta recognize those advantages even if you don't like Discord.
02:13:57 <nakilon> this could be better if the bridge is integrated with IRC server somehow so the PRIVMSG would be not from a bot but from a original nickname in another chat
02:14:15 <zzo38> Storing history on the server side is a feature of the implementation, not the protocol. It would be possible for a IRC server to do this too.
02:14:27 <zzo38> (It is just that, most don't.)
02:14:35 <nakilon> (assuming that one's IRC client won't crash if he gets the PRIVMSG to the channel from the person that isn't here)
02:16:02 <shachaf> zzo38: No, it's a feature of the protocol, surely?
02:16:20 <shachaf> You can ask the server to search history and to fetch particular parts incrementally and things like that.
02:16:21 <nakilon> history does not have to be stored in the server, because: 1. it's a commercial project and they are profiting from integration with Twitch to sell lootboxes -- they don't give any fuck about preserving your history and will delete or corrupt it in any moment
02:16:39 <shachaf> Well, nothing stops you from storing history locally too.
02:17:10 <shachaf> I'm just saying, you gotta recognize the benefits, rather than calling people gamers who don't have a clue in software.
02:17:21 <shachaf> Don't be https://twitter.com/1990slinuxuser
02:17:30 <nakilon> 2. because it's basically not a secure practice to store history without making the chat owner implicitly enable it -- I don't need my logs to be synced to undetermined amount of machines
02:18:06 <zzo38> shachaf: The Discord protocol may have commands to access the history, unlike IRC, but that doesn't mean a IRC server can't do that. The logs could be available in a HTTP or Gopher server, and/or the IRC server could provide an extension command to access the logs.
02:18:09 <nakilon> I see you are just triggered
02:18:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, but the things you're describing are certainly part of the protocol.
02:18:34 <shachaf> Even if it goes over Gopher or whatever. A regular IRC client won't know to do this.
02:18:42 <shachaf> Also, Discord supports longer messages, and also images.
02:18:47 <nakilon> that happens to gamers when they hear something they didn't realise and that is critical towards the services they use
02:19:20 <shachaf> Right, you've got it in one.
02:19:35 <zzo38> An IRC server could also easily increase the maximum message length. (If it is long enough, you could post images using a data: URI. I have actually seen this once, although the image was split across several consecutive messages.)
02:19:53 <shachaf> I was just lying when I said I object to things about Discord. What I meant to say is that it's perfect.
02:19:59 <nakilon> there is no need in images in the text chat
02:20:22 <zzo38> nakilon: I mostly agree. (And in the few cases that you do need images, usually you can just post a URL.)
02:21:24 <fizzie> Are you quite sure "triggering" isn't what happens when IRC people hear the slightest nonnegative opinions about a thing they hate? Because I can't exactly tell the difference.
02:21:48 <zzo38> It is true, a regular IRC client won't know how to access logs over Gopher or HTTP, but it could be mentioned in the server's HELP file (and the MOTD could mention it too). Even this IRC has the URLs of logs in the TOPIC message (even though it is client-side logging).
02:22:31 <nakilon> how is "Discord has many advantages over IRC" nonnegative?
02:22:44 <fizzie> Are you saying it's negative, then?
02:23:01 <nakilon> chats with images, server side logs and voice communications existed before Discord -- for example Skype
02:23:27 <nakilon> these tools are just for different purposes and one can't have "advantages over" another one
02:23:48 <shachaf> I'm very confused about what I was interpreted as saying.
02:23:57 <nakilon> IRC is for communication, Discord is for memes and noisy voice chat rooms
02:25:48 <zzo38> I think that if the channel is public, then it should be OK to save the logs. If the channel is private, then they might not want logs saved.
02:27:22 <fizzie> That just sounds like nonsense. Even without ever using it myself, I'm pretty sure there's some amount of people using it for what's unquestionably "communication" instead of "memes" and "noisy voice chat rooms", just based on what I've heard from people I can't imagine would have any reason to mislead.
02:27:41 <nakilon> that's the only bad side of Slack btw -- once the Team owner buys the "premium plan" it can read all chats
02:27:58 <fizzie> (I've no idea how big a fraction that is of their total user base, and since I don't know anything about it, I don't think I care to argue about it particularly much.)
02:28:15 <zzo38> Yes, people do use Discord for communication, but IRC is better; for one thing, it can be used without specialized software.
02:28:55 <zzo38> (Well, depends on the kind of communications being made. For some things, email, NNTP, etc may be better.)
02:29:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Sounds to me like you're a gamer and you heard something you didn't like.
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02:30:27 <zzo38> (Other people prefer Matrix over IRC, and bridges between Matrix and IRC do exist.)
02:30:52 <shachaf> I really don't like Matrix/IRC bridges.
02:31:06 <shachaf> IRC doesn't support the same features, and the bridges compensate for that by writing annoying text.
02:31:07 <nakilon> fizzie the thing is that taking all kinds of people who are using Discord I meet in internet 99% of them just didn't hear about IRC, 99,9% never used IRC, 90% didn't hear about Teamspeak, most of them didn't really try to use other services to collectively share screen or use webcam -- Discord users are mostly just those who didn't know about
02:31:08 <nakilon> software that already existed
02:31:08 <fizzie> Anyway, I've heard you can't argue with success, and the fact this IRC/Discord thing has been the longest "conversation" (if you want to call it that) in a long while says something about the success of this particular channel in particular, which I (from looking at netsplit.de charts) suspect is more widely applicable than that.
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02:31:55 <nakilon> this is how impractical things become popular -- you just need to put enough advertising in it; IRC isn't monetized by default while Discord is -- they made it to integrate games, twitch and stuff
02:33:06 <fizzie> I think it's quite interesting how freenode's been a lot more resistant, though. Truly this is the Rivendell of IRC networks. Or is it Lorien? Anyway.
02:35:46 <nakilon> the amount of talk about anything does not mean that it is cool
02:35:48 <zzo38> Well, a server that supports multiple protocols for the same messages or files is possible. Features that one doesn't have, other one might have, although extensions are possible, if the protocol supports that. There are different kind of communication, so you would only use the protocols for those kind of communication.
02:36:41 <zzo38> There are also some features that some users (or administrator) might just not want.
02:47:12 <fizzie> I do like the Usenet network in the abstract (or did back when I still partook of it). I don't have much of an opinion on the protocol. I got the impression it had some slightly obscure things around how control messages are treated? And I also heard that one specific server was hard to administer, but that's an implementation detail.
02:49:24 <fizzie> I ran a very small NNTP-based network for a small group, but not sure with what. Definitely used Leafnode at some point as a local caching/batching thing for newsreading.
02:50:28 <fizzie> Our university's local NNTP newsgroups had a group called "-h" for the CS students (all the other groups were under a more conventional hierarchy of groups), and I don't think I ever found out why it was named like that.
02:51:05 <fizzie> It was the group where the script you ran when someone left their screen unlocked and their account logged in posted the message to.
02:51:07 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so too (and INN also does a lot more than I need), so I wrote my own implementation, which stores the messages in a SQLite database. (Some things are not currently implemented, but should be in future, such as authentication, and full support for copying messages between servers (it might be a separate program, which may be set up in cron or anacron).)
02:52:05 <fizzie> Oh, I should've archived those newsgroups, wonder why I never thought of that. They're gone now.
02:53:01 <zzo38> (Also in future, alternative interfaces (also as separate programs) with the same database, might also be implemented. Other people can help with that if wanted, I suppose.)
02:53:02 <fizzie> I feel like they probably weren't accessible from outside the university or student campus networks either.
02:55:44 <zzo38> Do you remember what was written on those newsgroups?
02:57:15 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80691&oldid=80659 * Digital Hunter * (+152) /* Digital root */
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03:01:04 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80692&oldid=80691 * Digital Hunter * (-4) /* Numbers */
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03:05:11 <nakilon> I'm sorry for being a bit edgy
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03:07:46 <kmc> happy Chinese New Year / Lunar New Year
03:21:08 <zzo38> Maybe I might make Chinese cookies
03:23:38 <nakilon> is there any rule in English that adjective can't go before the pronoun? like "additional horse" is ok, "it runs" is ok, "horse runs" is ok, but "additional it" isn't ok
03:24:01 <nakilon> hoped to see it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun but no
03:29:17 <nakilon> hmm, https://ell.stackexchange.com/q/116505/33819
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04:54:32 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80693&oldid=80690 * Salpynx * (+1010) disable UTF-8 output to enable arbitrary binary data generation
05:04:10 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80694&oldid=80693 * Salpynx * (+26) heading
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08:01:00 <zzo38> Confused Maze {?} World Tribal Enchantment - Wall ;; Objects enter the battlefield tapped.
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10:15:20 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80695&oldid=80694 * Salpynx * (-17) remove .pl extension
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10:32:48 <esowiki> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80696&oldid=41893 * Salpynx * (+216) A possible Esme implementation. Works according to the info available from this wiki
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14:15:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SKPG-Tech * New user account
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16:13:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IOKG04 * New user account
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16:27:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80697&oldid=80686 * IOKG04 * (+188) /* Introductions */
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18:11:54 <b_jonas> you know how it can be hard to find the sockets on the back of monitor, because monitors are heavy and big so you can't easily rotate them to see those sockets, right? and you know who the typical TFT monitor is shaped like an elognated letter D, with the flat side facing the viewer and the curved side on the back getting ventillation? and how a HDMI connector is also shaped like an elognated letter D?
18:12:00 <b_jonas> it would be such a great mnemonic if the HDMI socket were placed on the monitor such that the flat side faces towards the viewer, but no! it's backwards, at least on some monitors. WHY? why do they design such a connector then mess up the mnemonic?
18:12:34 <b_jonas> HDMI isn't even the first digital monitor port, that's DVI, so by the time HDMI was invented they'd have had experience to know all this.
18:15:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: re your public files, are "gopher://zzo38computer.org/" and "http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/" the only roots? I don't promise anything because I have a backlog of useful websites that I should download, but neither "http://zzo38computer.org/" nor the gopher root seems to link to the fossil directory, so there might be more roots that I missed
18:21:44 <b_jonas> in other news, Nintendo's new Mario game has this schtick where every enemy is turned to a cat by adding cat ears and sometimes a cat tail: it has cat goombas, cat koopas, cat piranha plants, catfish etc. So now I wonder: does unicode have a combining cat ears character, so that we can represent a multiocular o with cat ears in unicode text?
18:31:15 <fizzie> Re the HDMI mnemonic, I wonder if that's just things like the HDMI connector they got sourced the cheapest being oriented a given way in terms of the PCB it's mounted to, and there being some practical reason where that board's in.
18:31:52 <fizzie> But it is annoying. I usually try to feel for those sockets, but my fingertips aren't good enough to really tell the orientation, especially when it's hard to reach in the first place.
18:33:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80698&oldid=80697 * SKPG-Tech * (+174) /* Introductions */
18:34:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the female socket in the monitor is completely sunken into the housing, just like with USB, so you can't feel it, you can only feel the cutout on the plastic cover, which doesn't help enough
18:34:57 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80699 * SKPG-Tech * (+902) Created page with "Pewlang is an [[esoteric programming language]], that translates to [[brainfuck]]. It was mostly inspired by [[Z]] and was made as a joke in the [https://pewpew.live/discord P..."
18:37:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80700&oldid=80698 * Tasty Kiwi * (+203)
18:40:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tasty Kiwi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80701 * Tasty Kiwi * (+80) Created page with "I am one of the creators of [[Pewlang]]. I like coding in Python and JavaScript."
18:40:34 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80702&oldid=79895 * SKPG-Tech * (+141) /* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */
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20:16:33 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80703&oldid=80699 * SKPG-Tech * (+3042)
20:19:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: The files in the gopher are dynamic; only the URLs starting with "gopher://zzo38computer.org/1textfile/" are not dynamic. For the Fossil repositories, you must use the Fossil protocol to clone them; simply downloading the file won't work.
20:20:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, then let's say "gopher://zzo38computer.org/1textfile/" is one of the roots
20:20:43 <b_jonas> and yes, I can clone from the fossil repositories (could pull from some of them some years ago at least)
20:21:51 <b_jonas> "http://zzo38computer.org/" should probably link to the fossil directory, and to "http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/" which mirrors the gopher
20:23:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I will fix that later. Right now I will shower and eat, and then I can find if there are other files that should be, and fix that.
20:27:08 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80704&oldid=80703 * SKPG-Tech * (-35)
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22:03:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shimakaze-Kan * New user account
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22:07:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80705&oldid=80700 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+167)
22:13:50 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80706&oldid=80478 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+131) Added IDE link
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23:23:00 <zzo38> There are some other files, and there is also other things such as the NNTP service; maybe I should add some way to make backups remotely in a way which only copies changed files and can easily be extended for use with multiple types of realms (ordinary files, collections of artifacts referenced by hashes (e.g. Fossil repositories), netnews articles, etc).
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23:32:21 <zzo38> (I don't know if rsync supports such extensions)
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23:49:03 <fizzie> We use zsync for publicly available backups of the wiki contents, but I'm not sure it's really worth the hassle. I think it's mostly intended to do what rsync would do (download only changed blocks) even when the file is served from a "dumb" HTTP server, as long as it supports range requests. And I don't think it easily extends to other kinds of data.
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00:06:32 <zzo38> OK, apparently zsync uses a file called .zsync to control it; I will read the documentation to see how suitable it is.
00:08:18 <zzo38> However, what I have, I think that what is helpful is each "realm" has its own timestamp, and may be by name (ordinary files and NNTP) or by hash (Fossil repositories). By hash is always immutable; by name can be mutable (ordinary files) or immutable (NNTP).
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00:19:06 <zzo38> Is there a backup protocol that does that?
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00:39:31 <zzo38> I think .zsync files are probably not suitable for my use.
00:40:28 <zzo38> (I also do not see documentation about the zsync file format, anyways.)
00:43:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I haven't seen it documented either. There's a page that explains what it's made of conceptually -- http://zsync.moria.org.uk/paper200503/ -- but doesn't bother to describe the exact file format. But you're right that it's probably not really designed to be extensible.
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00:46:47 <esowiki> [[Chatlog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80707&oldid=80689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Move cats to bottom; add some too
00:48:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80708&oldid=80670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* C */ Add [[Chatlog]]
00:49:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80709&oldid=80708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* P */ Add [[Pewlang]]
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01:41:25 <oren> monitors should just have feel-able markings in the shape of H D M I
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01:41:41 <oren> so that you can tell which one is the HDMI port
01:49:05 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2287) Make language
01:49:38 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80711&oldid=80709 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* D */ +[[Divrac]]
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05:22:00 <Sgeo> Has anyone made a spacesort analogous to sleepsort that just puts stuff into a large array?
05:37:00 <Sgeo> https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=581dc6e3ac2423bf0b82105cb731faf9
05:45:44 <shachaf> This sort of thing is sometimes called "bucket sort" or other names.
05:48:26 <shachaf> "counting sort" was what I meant, I think.
05:48:55 <shachaf> Radix sort often uses this kind of thing.
05:51:10 <Sgeo> It has a legitimate use???
05:51:49 <Sgeo> I guess I was thinking that since I was trying to tamper with the obviously esoteric sleepsort, the corresponding wasteful of space would also be esoteric
05:52:04 <shachaf> Sure, if there's a small number of values.
05:55:56 <shachaf> It's a linear-time sorting algorithm.
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07:12:40 <zzo38> How is sleepsort working?
07:18:23 <zzo38> On a television show, for a few seconds it showed a different television show for a few seconds; it displayed two overlapping station indicators. And then, it switched back to the correct show, and then a few seconds after that, it was interrupted again, for less than one second I saw a message that said "Press any key to watch TV".
07:18:56 <zzo38> (It is a message and font style which are not applicable to any of the equipment I have.)
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09:14:20 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80712&oldid=80685 * Quintopia * (-74) Now DNA-code outputs codons equiprobably.
09:14:37 <metcalf> I've found an old programming game / artificial life that seems to have dropped off the internet and made it available again https://corewar.co.uk/biomass/biomass.html
09:15:36 <metcalf> The images are missing, but I'll recreate those if I manage to compile to code with X11 display.
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09:38:34 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80713&oldid=80704 * Tasty Kiwi * (-23)
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09:43:31 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80714&oldid=80452 * Tasty Kiwi * (+14) add pewlang
09:50:33 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80715&oldid=80713 * Tasty Kiwi * (+18) add 2021 category
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12:11:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can also upload public files to archive.org
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13:39:35 <arseniiv> fungot do you integrate by parts or you’d better divide and conquer?
13:39:36 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, the commission communication on sustainable aquaculture, you may ask. in 1848, during the debate on the fayot report because it is difficult for me to respond other than in exceptional cases. the globalisation of democracy. science is obviously an issue, as in the countries of the european union
13:40:22 <fizzie> "Science is obviously an issue."
13:40:34 <fizzie> fungot: Are you one of those anti-science folks?
13:40:34 <fungot> fizzie: ladies and gentlemen, that i am not in a position to take action. mr stevenson also raises the problem of organized crime. this convention is accompanied by a deadline so that we can only welcome the fact that we are spending european money to solve their own problems on to europe.
13:41:01 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80716&oldid=80715 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* Examples */ cats
13:41:23 <fizzie> I think we can all appreciate the fact fungot is not in any sort of position to take action.
13:41:23 <fungot> fizzie: commissioner, you stated that responsibility for the tasks that will face those two countries.
13:42:55 <HackEso> 429) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
13:44:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80717&oldid=80664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* Languages */ +[[Divrac]]
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14:36:21 <fungot> olsner: mr president, thanks in particular to mr john fnord and the continuation of the bombing of serbia can stop. the eldr resolution is quite clear that the game is over, to visit kaliningrad. i salute the progress which is well represented by the euro very quickly in setting up a european food authority
14:36:21 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course
14:38:17 * olsner shall now idle for a few more years
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14:46:07 <b_jonas> fungot: that war has ended for good, thank god
14:46:08 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mr churchill, who i hope will soon be time for decisions to be monopolized by a small lite. one might even imagine cases where codecision or majority voting in environmental matters. this requires careful supervision, as we all know this is not exactly encouraging either and detracts from the fact that the replacement fats are safe? one final point on the jobs of 2 000 observers will be placed on an aspe
14:47:08 <b_jonas> that must be some linear logic thing
14:59:24 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80718&oldid=78837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Create a variable, initialize it to 7, set it to 19, increment it, then divide it by 4 and print its value */ Shorten titlie
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15:56:11 <fizzie> fungot: "Placed on an aspe"? Is that some sort of woodworking tool, like an adze?
15:56:11 <fungot> fizzie: i would like to reiterate my previous remarks demonstrate that to me seems obvious, but which wish to ignore the historical fact that one country has won three world wars. the issue is one of the following: ‘to draw up and maintain a list of themes, but it has been said by mr smith, i am concerned about the content of several of the speeches this morning and i have had this afternoon.
16:06:14 <fizzie> I thought we had only had two of those world wars so far.
16:11:13 <APic> Nah, the 3rd was the Cold War
16:11:18 <APic> Now we are inside World War IV
16:11:22 <APic> Also knwon as Information War
16:15:04 <fizzie> I heard something about World War Z, was that also one of them?
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16:32:11 <ais523> sleepsort is actually just another sorting algorithm in disguise, usually heapsort
16:32:21 <ais523> because you're basically just delegating the task of actually sorting onto the OS scheduler
16:32:49 <ais523> and heapsort isn't a horrible algorithm, although it is really confusing
16:33:15 <int-e> it just moves things around quite a bit
16:33:33 <int-e> and the memory access patterns aren't too cache-friendly
16:35:07 <int-e> oh, what you have is not the usual heapsort; you're just managing the data in a priority queue (usually a heap structure)
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16:35:46 <ais523> "put everything into a priority queue and take it back out again" is heapsort by definition, assuming that the priority queue is implemented as a heap
16:35:59 <ais523> but, I agree that heapsort is more often done in-place
16:36:33 <int-e> to my mind the term "heapsort" is tied to a particular binary heap implemented in place
16:39:54 <ais523> also it's apparently possible to create a heap by inserting an array into it in O(n) time
16:40:04 <ais523> err, inserting an array into an empty heap
16:40:13 <ais523> this is faster than inserting the elements into it one at a time, which would be O(n log n)
16:40:32 <ais523> but, there's no way to speed up the "extract in sorted order" part of the algorithm, which is n log n regardless
16:41:44 <int-e> there's also the trick of moving everything up and then correcting the heap from below which saves comparisons on average... maybe Knuth analyses this? I forgot where I have this from.
16:42:38 <int-e> (it's n log n, but it had a smaller constant factor in the average case)
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16:50:43 <ais523> it crosses my mind that an intrusive heap might potentially be useful
16:51:09 <ais523> probably implemented as an array of pointers to elements, and a index in each element pointing back to the appropriate element of the array
16:51:34 <ais523> that way, the elements could automatically find themselves in the heap so that they could be deleted, move themselves when their keys were modified, etc.
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17:40:46 <hendursaga> Anyone know of any software using genetic programming or similar to reduce code size for golfing? I think I had one or two bookmarks but they got lost.
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17:42:49 <hendursaga> I'm mostly thinking stack-based ones, because I tend to use too many dup's and swaps and whatnot
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18:26:52 <kmc> hendursaga: some of the superoptimization techniques could be applicable maybe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization
18:28:04 <kmc> I don't have a link but I remember a paper about a system that would guess at new peephole optimizations, test them against a bunch of random inputs, and the ones that passed those tests were sent to a SAT solver for an exhaustive proof that they are meaning-preserving
18:28:59 <kmc> maybe you could do something similar
18:32:08 <fizzie> I think I remember someone giving a talk about something like that in the context of Ethereum smart contracts, where there's a very measurable cost in the "gas" that's needed to run them.
18:45:51 <kmc> ah, makes sense
18:45:55 <kmc> good application
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19:08:44 <hendursaga> Hmmm, I recall looking at a superoptimizer recently
19:12:06 <ais523> I once tried writing a superoptimizer by implementing a subset of x86 in z3 syntax
19:12:10 <ais523> but didn't get that far
19:12:59 <shachaf> ais523: https://github.com/zwegner/x86-sat seems neat.
19:14:33 <ais523> indeed, although that isn't quite the same as what I was working on
19:14:53 <ais523> I was attempting to optimise it for SAT search, so that an exists-forall search would find a sequence of instructions that implemented some specific algorithm
19:15:49 <ais523> that's probably why I didn't get very far
19:18:18 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/z386.smt2 if you're interested
19:18:45 <ais523> (it doesn't have a good UI yet, or indeed any real UI)
19:20:33 <shachaf> Writing SMTLIB2 directly? Courageous.
19:22:11 <ais523> writing a generator may well have been harder
19:22:56 <shachaf> I wish SMT solvers standardized on an API rather than just S-expressions.
19:23:05 <int-e> `define-fun` makes this sane
19:23:06 <HackEso> define-fun`? No such file or directory
19:23:31 <ais523> the s-expressions *are* the API
19:23:33 <int-e> oh right, I keep forgetting to mask `
19:23:51 <shachaf> I mean an API that doesn't involve parsing.
19:23:59 <ais523> although, requiring the parser to be an exact subset of Common Lisp's was probably a mistake
19:24:05 <int-e> you only have to pretty-print it :P
19:24:09 <shachaf> It's probably less important when you give the solver one big instance rather than manny small instances.
19:24:33 <int-e> I don't disagree...
19:25:04 <int-e> ...but that z386.smt2 example is not the reason why a standard API would be helpful
19:25:47 <int-e> a better example would be, say, integrating smt solving into a compiler for eliminating bounds checks
19:26:04 <int-e> where you'll have many, often small problems
19:27:49 <ais523> does that actually require SMT solving in most cases?
19:28:06 <ais523> tracking integer ranges will get rid of most of them in a purely compositional way
19:28:23 <ais523> (also, in that case, you'd probably want the SMT solver to work on the compiler's IR directly)
19:32:10 <int-e> ais523: strength reduction (to reduce the number of variables) and simple interval/offset/stride amalysis will get you quite far I suppose.
19:32:38 <ais523> strength reduction doesn't reduce the number of variables, does it?
19:33:16 <ais523> anyway, I was also thinking about range analysis in another context: code which evaluates the exact expression that the user specified, without rounding intermediate results
19:33:24 <ais523> a sort of "intermediate results are bignums" way of writing languages
19:34:03 <ais523> this would remove entire categories of security vulnerabilities, generally make code much more readable, and with good range analysis might be no more inefficient than the original
19:34:40 <ais523> but, some programs keep their integers in range with an analysis of the form "this program won't be running long enough for this counter to overflow" and I think there should be some way to formalise that
19:35:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eekee * New user account
19:36:37 <ais523> it'd be nice for a program to say "you're trying to make me operate on a 860MiB file, but this program will have an integer overflow if operating on a file larger than 750MiB so I won't even try", and for those bounds to be automatically calculated by the compiler
19:36:45 <ais523> rather than getting most of the way through and then failing
19:39:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80720&oldid=80705 * Eekee * (+353) /* Introductions */ +eekee
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20:03:58 <b_jonas> ais523: I do something like that, but not intrusively: a binary heap implemented as a normal array, and a dictionary of the same elements keyed on a different key, and each element in the dictionary has the index of the corresponding element in the implementation of the heap, and I update the index every time I move elements in the heap (whether up or down). this way you can find an element in the heap
20:04:04 <b_jonas> any time and increase its weight to move it later. it helps with a traditional priority queue for timers too, where you often want to postpone timers or forget them entirely.
20:09:37 <b_jonas> "this program will have an integer overflow if operating on a file larger than 750MiB so I won't even try" => ah yes, that bug in ffmpeg. that was for reading 2 gigabytes though, a bit less arbitrary.
20:13:00 <b_jonas> 'some programs keep their integers in range with an analysis of the form "this program won't be running long enough for this counter to overflow"' => yes. the rule I have for that is, if you increment a counter by 1 each time only (as opposed to adding larger numbers, or incrementing many separate counters in parallel then tallying them into it), then it will never reach 2**62 plus its starting value.
20:13:06 <b_jonas> for example, a generation counter or a reference counter is safe to keep as 64 bit long. but of course you often want an optimization that lets them be just 32 bit long, and that requires either more difficult arguments, or overflow checks every time.
20:14:21 <b_jonas> this applies even if you sometimes save the counter to the disk and later retrieve it from there, like in a database generation counter, again as long as you don't merge multiple counters into it with addition.
20:14:27 <shachaf> I wonder whether binary heaps actually do better than B-trees in practice, for many of their applications.
20:16:30 <b_jonas> that said, you can usually make runtime overflow checks very cheap, if they almost never have to detect an overflow.
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20:16:58 <b_jonas> then your program will give a cryptic error message on overflow, instead of undefined behavior
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20:32:28 <ais523> <shachaf> I wonder whether binary heaps actually do better than B-trees in practice, for many of their applications. ← there's such a thing as a B-heap (which is just a binary heap laid out differently in memory), that might be a fairer comparison
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20:33:29 <ais523> b_jonas: I agree that runtime overflow detection (e.g. Rust in debug mode) is preferable to undefined behaviour or silent wrapping
20:33:50 <ais523> but, I would prefer compile-time overflow detection, or ideally, the program just functioning as the programmer expected (the programmer's intent is normally clear)
20:35:26 <ais523> for example, starting calloc with «if (size * nmemb > SIZE_MAX) return NULL;» doesn't actually work (and good compilers will warn about this), but it is clear what the programmer means and it shouldn't be hard to teach a compiler how to generate code for it
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20:36:25 <ais523> and at least x86-64 has a perfectly usable 64-to-128-bit multiply instruction
20:36:50 <ais523> s/.*/(note that gcc has an intrinsic for "multiply and check for overflow", &)/
20:36:58 <ais523> (one of my comments got eaten in the connection reset)
20:37:35 <ais523> hmm, should that be & (sed-style) or $& (perl-style)? normally the exact regex syntax doesn't matter for these s/// things, but this is a case where it does
20:45:42 <int-e> but this may well amount to asking whether someone is a Perl programmer or not
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21:11:19 <ais523> shachaf: we were discussing alignment a while ago; I've been doing some benchmarking of various memory writing techniques recently (on a recent Intel processor), so decided to try misaligned writes
21:12:02 <ais523> they seem to be slower than aligned writes when the written data is in L1 or L2 cache, but no slower when the cache line to write has to be fetched from L3 cache or beyond
21:12:46 <ais523> (I'm guessing that the processor can compensate for the misalignment faster than it can evict a line from L2 cache)
21:13:18 <ais523> also, for aligned writes, it doesn't matter whether you use a misalignment-capable writing instruction or not, the processor notices that the address is aligned
21:13:18 <int-e> is this for misaligned access within a single cache line?
21:13:57 <ais523> int-e: I tested using misaligned accesses that collectively cover memory, so some within a cache line and some crossing cache lines, but to consecutive addresses
21:15:01 <ais523> this is a Whiskey Lake microarchitecture, it seems (I had to look it up, there are way too many different naming schemes for Intel processors)
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21:15:06 <int-e> well, it seems interesting to check whether the slowdown is just due to touching more than one cache line
21:15:39 <int-e> though that interferes with linear memory access so hrm, tricky
21:15:40 <ais523> I'm not sure there's much use for misaligned writes that are guaranteed to fit within a single cache line
21:15:51 <ais523> and I'm not sure how you'd write the test, either
21:16:29 <ais523> the /other/ issue with misaligned writes is that you can't bypass the caches with them and write directly to main memory (there isn't an instruction in the instruction set for it, vmovdqnt and friends work on aligned memory only)
21:16:32 <int-e> well, access words stuff at a... 64 byte? stride
21:16:40 <int-e> and vary the offset?
21:16:57 <ais523> I guess I can imagine a packed structure that's 64 bytes long but where the internal fields are misaligned
21:17:43 <int-e> this question isn't really motivated by practical considerations
21:17:58 <ais523> right, this is #esoteric after all
21:18:16 <int-e> it's more about having a model for the slowdown, possibly even an explanation
21:18:27 <ais523> actually, another interesting test would be to have a loop that writes only half of each cache line
21:18:37 <ais523> and see whether it's faster, slower, or the same speed as a loop that writes all of it
21:18:46 <ais523> (but you could do that with both aligned and misaligned data)
21:19:16 <int-e> hmmmm. expetations... it should actually be slower?
21:20:00 <ais523> I think it might depend on the number of reads of other cache lines you're doing in parallel
21:20:19 <int-e> if you write a whole cache line you don't have to wait for it to be fetched from higher up the memory hierarchy... or is that down?
21:20:34 <ais523> I'm not sure which direction in memor is which
21:21:09 <ais523> but, it wouldn't surprise me if processors couldn't map a line into cache without fetching it from the next-larger cache
21:22:18 <int-e> I agree it's an interesting experiment.
21:22:20 <shachaf> ais523: I saw some discussion of this on Twitter recently. Let me see if I can find it.
21:22:34 <ais523> prefetchw, which prepares a line for writing, is documented as reading the line into cache and taking an exclusive lock on it
21:23:17 <ais523> ooh! that's probably why vmovdqnt seems to be almost exactly twice as fast as vmovdqa for writing main memory
21:23:22 <shachaf> I think it was this thread: https://twitter.com/trav_downs/status/1358288656188854272
21:23:30 <shachaf> Though that's talking about AMD, and I think there was something about Intel too.
21:23:55 <ais523> I bet vmovdqa has to read the line and then write it, whereas vmovdqnt doesn't have to read it at all
21:24:13 <ais523> although I don't bet very much, because I'm not that sure
21:28:13 <ais523> oh, another thing I discovered is that the number of bytes you write at a time speeds up accesses to L1 and L2 but not beyond
21:28:23 <ais523> (actually I only tested L2, but with L1 it's kind-of obvious)
21:29:10 <ais523> this isn't surprising, the L2/L3 bottleneck is one of the most common limiting factors on a program's speed
21:33:45 <shachaf> By the way, did you know there's a simple trick for making a queue that support insert, remove, and monoidal product in amortized constant time?
21:34:03 <shachaf> It's a variant of the two-stack queue trick.
21:34:13 <ais523> how is the product defined?
21:34:21 <ais523> appending one queue to another?
21:35:02 <shachaf> I mean product of the contents, sorry.
21:35:29 <ais523> I'm still not sure I grasp what the definition is
21:36:15 <shachaf> For example you can ask for the maximum of the elements currently in the queue.
21:36:30 <ais523> ah, basically a fold over the entire queue
21:37:19 <ais523> can't you just implement that by draining the entire queue and calculating the product as you go, amortizing it against the time spent to insert?
21:37:38 <ais523> or, hmm, is this nondestructive?
21:37:47 <ais523> in that case I can see how it might be doable but it's nontrivial
21:38:16 <shachaf> Oh, you can ask for the product without removing elements, if that's what you mean.
21:38:32 <shachaf> For example you can use this to calculate sliding window products over an input list.
21:40:08 <ais523> I'm guessing it involves some sort of cache of partial results for sections of the queue; alongside each element, you have a number of elements later than it for which the monoidal product has been calculated (maybe 0), and the value of the product over that many elements
21:40:51 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure this algorithm works, but if it's wrong it sounds fixable
21:40:52 <int-e> . o O ( data FingerQueue a = Empty | One a | Nest a (FingerQueue (a,a)) a )
21:40:56 <shachaf> Hmm, I suppose it does have that property, but I think it's much simpler than what you're thinking.
21:41:23 <int-e> oh, wait, you need digits too
21:41:37 <shachaf> The trick is like a two-stack queue, except the out-stack contains running products instead of values.
21:42:01 <shachaf> So you might store ([abc,bc,c],[f,e,d],def)
21:42:26 <int-e> . o O ( data FingerQueue a = Empty | OneTwo (Digit a) | Nest (Digit a) (FingerQueue (a,a)) (Digit a); data Digit a = One a | Two a a
21:42:36 <shachaf> (The "def" is the product of the entire in-stack.)
21:42:49 <shachaf> When the out-stack is empty, you compute running products of the in-stack into it.
21:42:51 <ais523> ah, I see, the product of the in-stack is calculated twice
21:43:00 <ais523> but that doesn't affect the constant-time nature
21:43:06 <ais523> because it's calculated exactly twice and 2 is a constant
21:43:42 <shachaf> You can also represent it with a regular mutable queue with a separator between products and values: [abc,bc,c|d,e,f] def
21:44:18 <ais523> this seems like a useful data structure
21:44:28 <ais523> although I'm not immediately clear on what you'd use it for
21:45:05 <ais523> I wonder if there's a way to make it work for random access (think a database table where you can add and remove rows in any order, and always want to know the maximum value of a particular column)
21:45:05 <shachaf> The original context I wanted it for was computing maximums of windows of an array.
21:45:29 <shachaf> Though for that case there's a more specialized algorithm which I think is more efficient.
21:51:34 <b_jonas> "also, for aligned writes, it doesn't matter whether you use a misalignment-capable writing instruction or not, the processor notices that the address is aligned" => yes, the manual explicitly says that there's no performance difference anymore between the aligned and non-aligned instruction on newer cpus, nor between the integer vector bitwise and floating point vector bitwise instructions, they're
21:51:40 <b_jonas> just separate because they had different performance on older cpus
21:53:54 <b_jonas> and also that misaligned access only has performance penalties if it's from different cache lines (or possibly if you're trying to write then very quickly read from an overlapping address, but that's not really an alignment trouble, it's just missing the optimization where quickly reading the same thing that you wrote can bypass even the L1 cache)
21:54:01 <ais523> hmm, following multiple links from shachaf's linked twitter thread, I found a Microsoft blog post that uses Intel syntax and the "movabs" instruction
21:54:01 <ais523> which leads me to think that x86 assembler syntax actually isn't properly standardised at all
21:54:01 <ais523> (both AMD and Intel call the instruction in question "mov", I think "movabs" is a gcc/gas thing)
21:54:24 <b_jonas> "this is a Whiskey Lake microarchitecture" => what ... is hat a real architecture name? they have the weirdest names these days
21:55:07 <ais523> there's other weirdness, like "xorps / movdqu" as a method of zeroing memory (I believe that both AMD and Intel have processors on which xorps / movups would be equivalent and faster with no downsides)
21:55:40 <ais523> xorps is one of those weird exceptions
21:56:05 <ais523> which is treated as an int instruction by some processors and a float instruction by others
21:56:23 <ais523> the whole movdqu/movups distinction is one of the weirdest bits of x86 as it is
21:57:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I think even some very recent processors have a latency (but not throughput) penalty if you access the same register with both an int instruction and a float instruction in consecutive cycles
21:57:56 <ais523> the problem being, they don't agree on whether xorps is an int or a float instruction, so there's no way to get a guaranteed match between it and another instruction
21:59:57 <ais523> you can work around the issue by using pxor, but that's one byte longer if targeting an xmm register with a source for which any registers involved are numbered in the range 0-7
22:00:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not sure there's much use for misaligned writes that are guaranteed to fit within a single cache line" => there used to be one somewhat rare but important use, for when you want to shift a vector register by a variable number of bytes, and to do that, you do a maybe-unaligned read to get an index vector, then use that index vector with the PBLENDB or newer shuffle instruction. maybe the
22:00:43 <ais523> I think pxor and vpxor actually have different rules for this, just to make things even more complex
22:00:45 <b_jonas> specific use case is obsolete with some later instructions, but I think something similar still exists.
22:01:16 <ais523> that uses a misaligned *read*
22:01:20 <ais523> and it is still useful I think
22:01:35 <ais523> but writes are less obviously useful
22:01:37 <b_jonas> or maybe it's not for shifting bytes, where you don't need this too much, but something similar.
22:01:53 <b_jonas> ok, sorry, that's stupid, it's probably not actually a use case, ignore it
22:02:01 <ais523> (especially because the normal advice for small copies where the relative distance between source and destination is misaligned is "read misaligned, write aligned")
22:02:53 <ais523> I've been working on a program over the last few days where I have an infinitely repeating PSHUFB pattern but the repeat length is an odd number
22:03:09 <ais523> so I have the choice of making 32 copies of it so that I can read it aligned at any position, or of reading misaligned
22:03:34 <b_jonas> "<int-e> it's more about having a model for the slowdown, possibly even an explanation" => the L1 cache caches memory in 64-byte chunks called cache lines. if you're writing misaligned data, the L1 cache has to work harder because it has to update two of these, and also possibly communicate more with the L2 cache if the lines aren't yet in the L1 cache. isn't that enough of a mental model?
22:04:18 <ais523> b_jonas: I think int-e thinks that that's a possible explanation of the slowdown but doesn't know whether it's the *correct* model or not, and wants to find some way to establish whether or not it is
22:04:46 <ais523> I think it's been established that *page*-misaligned memory accesses are slow because you need to access the TLB twice, but that's a very rare case
22:05:46 <int-e> I'm off for tonight though, have fun!
22:07:37 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> By the way, did you know there's a simple trick for making a queue that support insert, remove, and monoidal product in amortized constant time?" => there's a heavyweight trick for that: use a finger tree, but in each node, cache the fold of the leaves descending from it. there's probably a much better way if you want just a queue. This is more useful for the general case, when you want a
22:07:43 <b_jonas> sequence that you can cut and paste anywhere and want to be able to get the product of keys in any subsequence.
22:08:27 <b_jonas> or similarly for an ordered keyed dictionary where you want to be able to compute the fold of a weight (secondary key) field for any range
22:08:53 <b_jonas> a structure that you can insert to, remove from, and answers questions like "what is the sum of weights of items with key between x and y"
22:09:28 <b_jonas> but it's possible that this doesn't actually give you amortized constant time, only amortized logarithmic time
22:11:02 <ais523> b_jonas: I was trying to work out if it's always possible to keep the tree balanced in amortized constant time, but it is, you can use any of the normal tricks for self-balancing trees and just recalculate the cache value of the modified nodes at every tree rotation
22:12:02 <shachaf> Hmm. I think you can keep B-trees balanced in amortized constant time, but not if you have folds in the internal nodes.
22:12:12 <ais523> of course, for invertible structures like sums, there are often much cheaper algorithms (e.g. if you want to know the sum of elements in a queue, just track the sum and add to it on push, subtract from it on shift)
22:12:14 <shachaf> Because then you need to ascend up the spine on every mutation.
22:12:30 <shachaf> Yes, invertibility makes it much easier.
22:13:19 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> The original context I wanted it for was computing maximums of windows of an array." => ah yes, that might be related to one of my favorite algorithmic problems, one I've already mentioned here: you get a list of machine word sized nonnegative integers, find the infix in it to maximize the product of the length of that infix and the minimum of its values
22:14:05 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to make a sort of heap where the heap property is updated only lazily, and if this might be amortized-faster than more regular implementations
22:14:58 <shachaf> Which thing could be faster?
22:15:03 <b_jonas> "<ais523> b_jonas: I think even some very recent processors have a latency (but not throughput) penalty if you access the same register with both an int instruction and a float instruction in consecutive cycles" => even if they're the same vector size?
22:16:19 <ais523> b_jonas: both companies have seen that behaviour at various points in time, I forget which one it is which has it on recent processors, let me look it up
22:17:16 <b_jonas> also, if you're trying to use xorps for zeroing a register, I think all cpus except very old ones have optimizations specifically for zeroing registers, both general and vector, and these might make the ordinary problem of integer vs float instructions moot. but maybe that's not what you want the xorps for.
22:18:48 <ais523> apparently Intel Skylake+ has some such delays, but only for rare combinations like integer logical operation → floating-point multiply, they don't trigger on things like moves; AMD Zen 3 has a 1-cycle delay for any sort of mismatch
22:19:01 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, you want specifically misaligned *write* guaranteed within a cache line only. yeah, I don't know a good case for that.
22:19:07 <ais523> so that's the most recent architecture family for both Intel and AMD
22:20:49 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Because then you need to ascend up the spine on every mutation." => no, not if you use a balanced tree optimized for persistent (no mutating in place) access
22:21:09 <b_jonas> and if it's a queue, inserting only at the ends, that can help
22:22:15 <b_jonas> ais523: re integer and float vector penalties, I see.
22:22:32 <b_jonas> and AMD Zen isn't the low power notebook family, right?
22:22:47 <b_jonas> if it's any sort of mismatch, that is serious
22:23:11 <b_jonas> if it's just certain floating point multiplies, that sounds less of a problem
22:25:22 <ais523> Zen is the super-high performance family
22:26:05 <b_jonas> I learned something new then
22:26:10 <ais523> but it's a latency penalty, not throughput, so I'm guessing that the issue is that there are integer vectors and floating point vectors on different physical parts of the chip
22:26:35 <ais523> an xor is cheap enough that having two separate xor units is probably cheaper than finding the wires to quickly move data from one end of the chip to the other
22:27:14 <b_jonas> yes, but a latency penalty often translates to a throughput penalty, because if you try to solve it, you run into a decoder bottleneck, even on AMD
22:27:19 <ais523> all this said, I'm rather confused at why all these floating-point logical operations exist at all, xor'ing floats is not the sort of thing that's particularly mathematically meaningful
22:27:32 <b_jonas> ais523: they exist for conditionals mostly
22:27:44 <b_jonas> also for negation and for ldexp and frexp
22:27:53 <ais523> using the all-1s "floating point" value as a boolean true
22:27:54 <b_jonas> negation isn't too important, you can use subtraction for that
22:28:10 <b_jonas> but ldexp and frexp and safe conversion to and from integers does have to involve them
22:28:12 <ais523> is all-1s +infinity, or is it a NaN?
22:28:14 <b_jonas> but mostly it's comparisons
22:28:32 <b_jonas> the floating point comparison instructions before AVX512 give floating point result in the performance sense
22:28:44 <ais523> b_jonas: compilers compile -x on floating point x to an xor with a sign-bit constant
22:29:03 <ais523> subtraction from 0 actually gives different results (related to negative versus positive zero and the sign bit on NaNs)
22:29:09 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you have to subtract from -0
22:29:21 <b_jonas> because -0 is the additive unit of floating point, not 0
22:29:24 <ais523> that still has a different effect on the sign bit of NaNs
22:29:51 <ais523> also, subtraction from -0 is no more efficient than xor with the sign-bit number
22:29:59 <b_jonas> it has a different effect on NaNs, but compilers in general don't give good enough tools to handle NaNs deterministically:
22:30:07 <ais523> actually… is the sign bit number -0 when interpreted as a float?
22:30:29 <b_jonas> you can't force a compiler to not swap the operands of a floating point addition without inline assembly
22:30:32 <ais523> `! c printf("%g", 0x8000000000000000L);
22:30:47 <ais523> that looks suspiciously like a negative zero to me
22:30:58 <ais523> which would make sense, as it's just 0 with the sign bit flipped
22:31:11 <ais523> so I guess the question is "xor with -0 or subtract from -0?"
22:31:26 <ais523> floating point xor and subtraction are equally fast, xor might use less power though?
22:31:56 <b_jonas> ais523: my guess is that compilers (usually) compile negation that way because it's less likely that you run out of execution units that do floating point addition, which can in rare cases be a bottleneck in numeric code, like in matrix multiplication AI nonsense, if it's hyperoptimized, and otherwise the difference doesn't matter
22:32:34 <ais523> oh, that might be the case on old processors
22:32:44 <b_jonas> no, I mean on recent Intel cpus
22:32:51 <b_jonas> it's a difference that doesn't come up often, I admit
22:32:53 <ais523> I think in modern processors, floating point adds can be done on any vector unit, and floating point xors can't be done on a scalar unit
22:33:01 <b_jonas> but I don't see a reason to use subtraction instead of xor
22:33:34 <b_jonas> if you do not care about negative zero, then subtraction may be faster if you have register pressure, because loading 0 is faster. but usually you care about negative zero.
22:34:15 <ais523> on Coffee Lake, xorps and pxor both run on 0/1/5 (the three main ALUs), addps and addss only run on 0/1
22:34:32 <ais523> OK, so you're right, there is one vector unit that can handle floating point logic but not floating point add
22:34:42 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I think in modern processors, floating point adds can be done on any vector unit, and floating point xors can't be done on a scalar unit" => that sounds like you're either talking about a newer microarchitecture or another brand than the ones I'm the most familiar with
22:34:57 <ais523> the other ALU is 6, which can do XORs but probably isn't capable of reading vector registers
22:35:04 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I was just mistaken
22:35:40 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, is this for a vector negate, or for negating a single float?
22:35:43 <ais523> for a comparison, paddq runs on 0/1/5
22:36:50 <ais523> but it hardly matters, assuming you're using SSE/AVX as the FPU (which is the only sane default on x86-64), single-float and vector-float instructions are encoded and executed almost identically (the only difference is a single bit in the instruction encodings)
22:37:16 <ais523> also I think the vector instructions are actually faster in cases where the destination is a different register from the sources
22:37:20 <b_jonas> ais523: 32 bit or 64 bit? doesn't 64 bit float subtract have a longer instruction encoding by one byte?
22:37:32 <b_jonas> whereas for the xorps it doesn't matter
22:37:36 <ais523> b_jonas: oh right, there's the SSE special case
22:37:40 <b_jonas> because you can use xorps for 64-bit
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22:37:53 <ais523> where …ps instructions are 1 byte shorter
22:37:57 <b_jonas> I don't really remember all the SSE2 encodings
22:38:34 <ais523> basically, the way to think about it is: you have two encoding families for vector instructions, SSE and VEX
22:39:09 <b_jonas> all I remember is that there's a rare special case when using MMX registers as temporaries when you run out of general purpose registers in a tight loop can be worth just because MMX has shorter encodings than SSE2
22:39:18 <ais523> the only functionality difference is that the VEX encodings have a V at the start of the instruction name, and zero the high 128 bits of a ymm register if you write the low 128 bits; the SSE instructions have no V and will leave the high 128 bits unchanged
22:39:50 <ais523> both encoding families have a special case where they're one byte shorter
22:40:00 <ais523> SSE is one byte shorter for …ps instructions, which is a simple enough rule to remember
22:40:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I understand that part, but I mean the pre-AVX MMX/SSE/SSE2/SSSE3/SSE4.1/SSE4/2 instructions have a lot of encoding detail
22:40:22 <b_jonas> and I don't remember when the shortcuts apply, as in when you need fewer prefixes
22:41:13 <b_jonas> ais523: although while we're there, you say that modern AMD has latency penalties for mixing integer and floating point vector instrs. does it also have penalties for mixing 32-bit and 64-bit floating point instructions, including for the bitwise?
22:41:22 <ais523> also, instructions are allocated to various "maps"; map 1 instructions are 1 byte shorter in SSE
22:41:31 <ais523> whereas they're one byte shorter in VEX only if none of the input arguments access a register numbered 8-15 inclusive (it's OK if the output does)
22:42:44 <ais523> b_jonas: apparently not, you can type-pun float as double and back for free
22:43:38 <ais523> that's another reason I think it's likely that the issue is "this register is stored physically near the floating-point units" rather than anything to do with caching extra metadata about floats
22:45:56 <ais523> (also, for anyone reading this who doesn't know, it's worth remembering that registers named in machine code instructions generally no longer have any real relationship to physical registers on the processor, they're just a convenient way of telling the processor which instructions are meant to give their output to which other instructions)
22:46:13 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but you could have 32-bit and 64-bit float units physically distant too, just as the integer vs float unints
22:46:54 <b_jonas> or are all the optimized-for-marketing fma units so important that that's not worth?
22:47:51 <ais523> fma is mildly useful, I'm not sure how heavily it drove into processor marketing
22:48:09 <ais523> although, it is an operation that is *very* hard to do efficiently without processor support, so the people who needed it probably really needed it
22:48:34 <ais523> (and it also made Intel rearchitecture significant parts of their processor internals, so they probably wouldn't have done it unless there was heavy demand)
22:49:17 <ais523> until FMA was added, Intel processors couldn't take more than two inputs to any internal instruction, and there were horrible things going on micro-architecturally to avoid having to do that
22:49:30 <ais523> but there's pretty much no way around taking three inputs to an FMA instruction
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22:49:43 <ais523> I guess if Intel are going to go to that effort, they're going to market it heavily
22:51:29 <b_jonas> it's certainly useful to optimize fma so that the CPU can do matrix multiplications quickly. but Intel pushed that a bit too far, pushing benchmarks for matrix multiplications or similar used for fashionable AI nonsense, apparently optimizing for the benchmarks of that one thing more than the large variety of tasks that a CPU should handle. that's when you got a cpu where you run out of execution units
22:51:35 <b_jonas> with floating point add faster than with fma. that was a few years ago admittedly.
22:53:04 <ais523> looks like FMA runs on 0/1 nowadays
22:53:29 <ais523> the same as floating point add, and floating point multiply, individually
22:55:58 <b_jonas> also some people claim that they're optimizing for marketing "number of instructions" the way AVX512 was defined, in a way that adds a bit too much historical load that they have to support in all future CPUs. I don't really buy that. I think it only seems like that partly because they're adding a larger variation of instructions that are *easy* to implement, which seems redundant but actually helps
22:56:04 <b_jonas> because of how often the decoder and neighbors is the bottleneck, and partly because of the AVX512 mask registers, which admittedly seems a weird design and possibly not the best idea, but might turn out to be good after all for all I know.
22:56:35 <b_jonas> "<ais523> looks like FMA runs on 0/1 nowadays / the same as floating point add, and floating point multiply, individually" => yes, what I mentioned was pre-AVX512
22:57:31 <ais523> this is a non-AVX-512 processor (although after it was invented)
22:57:52 <ais523> AVX-512 looks like something that Intel doesn't want to have as a "default" feature in consumer processors, at least not yet
22:58:18 <ais523> and actually, at some point increasing the size of the vector units isn't going to help much because the bottleneck will be memory/cache speed and not compute speed
23:00:24 <b_jonas> but, just like AVX and AVX2, AVX512 also adds new instructions or instruction modes on shorter vectors, most notably the additional vector registers and the mask registers, not only wider vectors
23:00:34 <b_jonas> it's not only about the width
23:02:02 <b_jonas> that's why it is worth to have low-power cpus that support the AVX2 instruction set but only 16 byte execution units and decoding the 32 byte wide instructions to run on two execution units, and similarly it can be worth to have AVX512 instructions that only have 32 byte wide execution units
23:02:23 <b_jonas> well, partly that's why. the other part is decoding.
23:03:19 <ais523> I think many modern procesors turn off half the vector registers most of the time to save power
23:03:42 <ais523> and will run 32-byte instructions by passing them through the low half of the vector units twice while the high half is busy turning on
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21:44:47 <fizzie> Hmph. I'm trying to set up one of those log aggregation things with Loki and its accompanying promtail agent, and I've made it scrape the systemd journal, but it's throwing these "entry out of order" errors every now and then, which I don't understand. All the items are in order in the journalctl output -- but maybe that sorts them or something, and they actually don't get written in order to the journal
21:44:53 <fizzie> file. But I can't find anyone else complaining.
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22:05:33 <fizzie> IDGI. They're in order even in `journalctl -f`, which I imagine would be tailing the log the same way the promtail agent does. But still it sometimes happens.
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01:06:17 <zzo38> These are my ideas so far of the mirror protocol: http://sprunge.us/GZT9QV
01:06:50 <zzo38> Please make a comment of it.
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01:18:49 <ais523> hey, I have a ridiculous question, so this seemed like a good channel to ask it
01:19:12 <ais523> I'm trying to mmap over NULL to make my process's virtual address 0 a valid address; it seems that by default you can do this as root, but not as a regular user
01:19:39 <ais523> I vaguely remember there's a kernel setting that makes doing that legal even for regular users; does anyone here happen to know/remember what it is, or should I go hunting for it? it's hard to search for
01:21:16 <oerjan> i vaguely remember that was a possible security hole?
01:21:21 <zzo38> I don't know what it is; I have not heard of that before, though.
01:21:28 <ais523> yes, it's the vmsplice security hole from 2008, now patched
01:21:41 <ais523> (the context is a code-golfing-like situation, I'm wondering how many bytes / uops it's theoretically possible to save in a hot loop, and it crosses my mind that you can simplify things by having the loop end at address 0 so that the check for the loop end is simpler)
01:22:13 * oerjan doesn't know the answer, anyway
01:22:21 <fizzie> Yeah, there was a sysctl for it, right?
01:22:39 <ais523> I already found the solution where you just add a SIB byte to every memory access containing a nonzero value, and use that as a "virtual zero"
01:22:43 <ais523> also the solution using segment registers
01:22:49 <ais523> but both of those add at least one additional byte
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01:23:17 <fizzie> `` cat /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr
01:23:29 <fizzie> Sounds plausible to me.
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01:23:57 <ais523> thanks, I wasn't 100% sure that someone would know it off the top of their head, but this place seemed as likely as any
01:24:26 <fizzie> I had a faint recollection you had to change that to make dosemu work right.
01:24:57 <ais523> the funny thing is, this is the sort of code that a) wants to map over NULL, *and* b) wants to use vmsplice
01:25:05 <ais523> I bet at the time of the fix, nobody thought that was a legitimate combination
01:27:17 <ais523> this isn't documented in either proc(5) nor mmap(2) (and the return value is EPERM which isn't supposed to be caused by this)
01:27:34 <ais523> actually, Linux's userspace/kernel-interface documentation is rather more lacking than I'd hoped
01:27:49 <ais523> I had to read about four files of kernel source code to figure out what vmsplice actually does
01:28:46 <ais523> (what it does is to take a page of memory from your process, flag it as copy-on-write, then mmap it directly into a pipe buffer so that reads from the pipe will read from your process's memory if you don't change it before the read, or from a copy of the memory if you do)
01:29:46 <ais523> so vmsplice to the write end of a pipe, followed by another process reading from the read end, only copies the data once (in read); if you write rather than vmsplice, the data gets copied twice (on both write and read)
01:30:12 <ais523> but the caveat is that if you modify the page in question at all before the pipe gets read, the kernel has to copy the entire page containing the data you wrote, rather than just the data itself (and also adjust page tables, which is slow)
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01:31:28 <ais523> the kernel devs were hoping to implement vmsplice for the read end of a pipe, too, but couldn't think of a good way to handle the mapping *into* user space, so right now it's effectively just an alias for readv that only works on pipes
01:33:45 <ais523> maybe I should just use a %fs: prefix, although there's little documentation as to how expensive those are; my guess would be that they're cheap due to the need to support backwards compatibility for 32-bit programs, but I may be wrong
01:35:03 <zzo38> Actually, I also found the documentation for some Linux features (including stuff in /proc) to be incomplete
01:35:39 <ais523> I don't even think there's an official piece of documentation anywhere for how you make a system call from userspace
01:35:48 <ais523> in terms of calling convention and ABI
01:36:21 <ais523> (although there seems to be a consensus that all registers are call-preserved, including the flags and argument registers, with the exception of %rcx and %r11, and the return value %rax)
01:36:32 <shachaf> Isn't it used for thread-local storage on Linux nowadays? Or is that gs?
01:36:52 <ais523> shachaf: so the idea is that you have a loop with a pointer that points to useful memory, but also doubles as the loop counter
01:37:00 <ais523> and the loop ends when the pointer hits 0
01:38:01 <ais523> in order to use this pointer usefully, you can either a) make it an index rather than a pointer (requiring a base register and a SIB byte); b) mmap over NULL so that 0 is a valid address; or c) use a segment override so that the pointer with value 0 actually points to some part of virtual memory other than the bottom
01:38:18 <ais523> segment overrides used to be much more complex in 16-bit and 32-bit x86
01:38:48 <ais523> but in x86-64, there are only two segment overrides that do anything (%fs: and %gs:), and their effect is unrelated to the actual value in the %fs or %gs registers
01:39:52 <ais523> each of them just adds a constant offset to the address it modifies; there are a few different ways to specify the constant (but typically, you tell the kernel what constant you want and it sets up the processor according to the offsets you requested during context switches)
01:40:59 <ais523> thread-local storage takes advantage of the fact that each thread is context-switched to separately by the kernel, so each thread is given its own %fs base by the threading library, which points to the start of the thread's thread-local storage
01:41:23 <shachaf> Isn't the constant offset the value in the %fs register?
01:41:27 <ais523> which means that at the assembly level, accessing (say) the 33rd byte of TLS is as simple as %fs:(32)
01:41:39 <ais523> that would be the logical thing to do, but they're actually unrelated
01:41:43 <ais523> in most cases, the value in the register is 0
01:42:37 <ais523> (the exception is that writing to the register will write the offset, too; but the relationship between the value you write and the offset that is loaded is not the identity function, it's actually calculated using a lookup table that on Linux, you can specify using the modify_ldt system call)
01:42:52 <ais523> only the values in the lookup table are only 32 bits long for some reason
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01:43:26 <ais523> so in general, you don't ever write to %fs or %gs directly
01:43:40 <ais523> you can write to the offset registers, %fsbase and %gsbase, directly on some recent Intel processors
01:43:46 <ais523> which is what you probably actually wanted to do
01:43:49 <shachaf> I see, fsbase and fs are different things?
01:44:33 <shachaf> And these are set by some MSR.
01:44:48 <fizzie> I learned the other day that both Linux and Windows swapped the segment override they're using for TLS when going from x86-32 to x86-64; since they started out using the opposite registers, they still do.
01:45:05 <ais523> right, if you don't have wrfsbase/wrgsbase instructions, you need to use an MSR to set them (which is why you need a system call to set them in Linux, because only the kernel can write MSRs)
01:45:33 <ais523> fizzie: I have no idea why you'd pick %fs or %gs in particular for this
01:45:36 <shachaf> If I remember correctly it's also impossible to even get the fsbase/gsbase value directly.
01:45:50 <fizzie> ais523: There's a SWAPGS instruction, but no SWAPFS counterpart, that's what I was given as the reason.
01:45:59 <shachaf> And so Linux stores the value of gsbase at %gs:0 or something like that.
01:46:03 <ais523> shachaf: it *was*, but Intel added RDFSBASE recently
01:46:24 <ais523> I think there are still lots of processors that don't have it, though, it's fairly new
01:46:47 <zzo38> Will the instruction be emulated on computers that don't have it?
01:46:59 <ais523> fizzie: I realise that, but it's unclear what the performance properties are
01:47:00 <shachaf> You might hope that nowadays something like lea %fs:0, %rax would be valid.
01:47:21 <HackEso> 0: 64 48 8b 14 25 00 00 00 00 mov %fs:0x0,%rdx
01:47:36 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 14 25 00 00 00 00 lea 0x0,%rdx
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01:47:54 <ais523> shachaf: lea ignores segment registers
01:48:01 <ais523> I was curious about this myself, so decided to test it
01:48:09 <ais523> and gas actually produced a warning telling me that it doesn't work
01:48:27 <HackEso> 0: f3 48 0f ae c2 rdfsbase %rdx
01:48:29 <shachaf> Yes, but you might hope otherwise, in long mode.
01:48:58 <ais523> wow, the "f3 48 0f" prefix seems so dirty
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01:49:06 <ais523> even though that is the only legal ordering for the prefixes
01:49:34 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x64, 0x48, 0x14, 0x25, 0, 0, 0, 0
01:49:35 <HackEso> 0: 64 48 14 25 fs rex.W adc $0x25,%al \ 4: 00 00 add %al,(%rax) \ ...
01:49:49 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x64, 0x48, 0x8d, 0x14, 0x25, 0, 0, 0, 0
01:49:50 <HackEso> 0: 64 48 8d 14 25 00 00 00 00 lea %fs:0x0,%rdx
01:50:14 <shachaf> So it is encodable, it just ignores it.
01:50:22 <ais523> that's a totally valid instruction, but its actual effect is to write 0 to %rdx
01:50:43 <ais523> `asm lea 0, %fs:0(%rdx)
01:50:44 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: too many memory references for `lea' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `:0(%rdx)' after expression
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01:50:54 <ais523> `asm lea %fs:(0), %rdx
01:50:55 <HackEso> 0: 64 48 8d 14 25 00 00 00 00 lea %fs:0x0,%rdx
01:51:01 <fizzie> Well, it's named after "load effective address", and the effective address is by definition before segments.
01:51:15 <fizzie> That's what distinguishes it from the linear address.
01:51:17 <ais523> you'd need a "load linear address" to get the post-segmentation value
01:51:35 <ais523> maybe even a "load physical address" to get a complete set
01:52:28 <shachaf> Well, I wouldn't expect to get physical addresses in userspace.
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01:52:44 <ais523> it doesn't seem that ridiculous of a thing to be able to do at CPL 0
01:53:10 <ais523> the implementation of vmsplice needs to get physical addresses, for example
01:53:29 <ais523> the kernel has to do a page walk in order to figure it out, duplicating the work that the processor does in hardware
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01:53:51 <ais523> (a side effect of this is that vmsplice runs faster if you're using hugepages)
01:55:08 <ais523> so basically, what I'm saying is that LPA should probably be restricted to kernel space, but there are plenty of processor instructions that are restricted to kernel space
01:59:07 <zzo38> Does x86-64 have emulation of invalid instructions (either not implemented or not allowed)?
01:59:55 <ais523> zzo38: indirectly; an invalid instruction causes a #UD trap, which the kernel gets an opportunity to react to
02:00:25 <ais523> on physical hardware, most kernels will react to this by causing a SIGILL instruction; however, a kernel could if it wanted to emulate the instruction then return (there is sufficient information in the trap for this)
02:00:56 <zzo38> It can help then, if a program uses instructions that your computer doesn't have, the kernnel can emulate it, or if it uses a privileged instruction that the user program has sufficient privilege to use
02:01:03 <shachaf> I remember reading that Windows used to use illegal instructions to do system calls, because they were faster than a regular interrupt for some reason.
02:01:26 <ais523> the "canonical illegal instruction" that you're supposed to use for intentional SIGILLs is ud2, and I vaguely remember that the reason for the name is that there was once also a ud1 instruction, intended to "soft extent" the instruction set by having the kernel handle the #UD trap
02:01:44 <ais523> but I can't find documentation for ud1 in either the Intel or AMD guides, so maybe it was removed
02:02:11 <ais523> (that said, if the kernel is going to be assigning a meaning to ud1 combinations, maybe they aren't a good suggestion for intentionally illegal instructions)
02:02:38 <shachaf> https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/ud also talks about ud0
02:03:21 <shachaf> I remember this subtlety about decoding ud0 without the modrm byte.
02:06:04 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0xff, 0x00
02:06:07 <HackEso> 0: 0f ff 00 ud0 (%rax),%eax
02:06:17 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0xb9, 0x00
02:06:18 <HackEso> 0: 0f b9 00 ud1 (%rax),%eax
02:06:22 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0xf1, 0x00
02:06:23 <HackEso> 0: 0f f1 00 psllw (%rax),%mm0
02:06:34 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0x00
02:06:48 <ais523> so it seems that ud0 and ud1 take two arguments each
02:07:23 <ais523> incidentally, I recently realised that it's possible to at least encode a vectorized NOP, by following the normal rules for vectorising other instructions
02:07:27 <ais523> but I got a SIGILL when I tried
02:07:48 <ais523> along similar lines you can write a vectorized ud0 or ud1 or ud2
02:08:14 <ais523> these will presumably also give a SIGILL, and there may be some debate about whether they're real instructions or not because a SIGILL is the expected effect :-)
02:13:10 <kmc> isn't there at least one OS that uses ud2 as its syscall instruction?
02:13:40 <ais523> I actually had a crazy idea of using pagefaults as a system call instruction
02:13:46 <ais523> this would allow for things like memory-mapped pipes
02:14:20 <ais523> the advantage is that you could remove a lot of loop logic from the userspace side, whereas the kernel side may well not be any slower
02:14:39 <ais523> (although, I think `syscall` is meant to be faster than all the other ways of doing system calls)
02:15:07 <kmc> hmm, if a store causes a pagefault, can the handler get access to the value which was to be written?
02:15:13 <kmc> on x86 i don't think it can :/
02:16:09 <kmc> can you get the exact bytes of the instruction which faulted in order to emulate it? of course you can get %rip and read the program memory but that might have a race condition in some crazy circumstance
02:17:01 <ais523> I think you're supposed to just read %rip, although I can imagine the crazy circumstance in which the race condition occurs
02:17:49 <ais523> at least the plus side is that the race condition can be handled by looking at the bytes to see if they're an instruction that could have produced the sort of fault you see, emulating if so, and just returning and rerunning the instruction otherwise
02:18:03 <kmc> yeah it's not that crazy really. just multithreading + self modifying code
02:18:17 <ais523> because that won't produce any results that you couldn't have seen with a slightly different method
02:18:23 <ais523> err, a slightly different timing
02:18:36 <ais523> this isn't self-modifying code, but other-modifying code
02:19:32 <ais523> from the processor's point of view, it would show up as an RFO for L1c data, which is not a path that's going to be used pretty much ever
02:19:40 <kmc> wtf is rdfsbase?
02:19:44 <kmc> i thought the long mode fs base was in a msr
02:19:55 <ais523> it returns the "value of the msr"
02:20:14 <kmc> so why not use rdmsr
02:20:18 <ais523> although, from various discussion of MSRs, I have the strong suspicion that they don't actually exist as separate entities within the processor
02:20:25 <ais523> rdmsr is privileged, and possibly slower?
02:20:34 <kmc> what do you mean by "separate entities"
02:20:51 <ais523> rdmsr and wrmsr seem to be processor-level system calls, they're basically just function calls
02:20:59 <kmc> are you saying that they're microcoded
02:21:09 <ais523> yes, and they can apparently be microcoded to do anything
02:21:27 <kmc> that's fair
02:21:34 <ais523> one of the workarounds for one of the spectre vulnerabilities was to add a new MSR that emptied the branch target buffer when written
02:21:38 <kmc> wrmsr is to opcodes as ioctl is to syscalls :P
02:21:42 <ais523> and which returns 0 when read
02:22:30 <ais523> it strikes me as very unlikely that Intel would have added a physical register with that specific behaviour to the processors they'd actually released and not told anyone out of it, so it's probably some sort of virtual register that exists only in microcode
02:22:41 <ais523> * not told anyone about it
02:23:28 <ais523> anyway, if rdmsr is microcoded, I can easily imagine that a hardwired rdfsbase would be faster
02:23:50 <kmc> fair enough
02:24:03 <kmc> and the fs base does pretty much have to be in a hardware register
02:24:31 <kmc> i mean also all the user visible registers are virtual in some sense
02:24:58 <kmc> there's not an actual specific set of 64 flip flops corresponding to RAX, not anymore
02:25:14 <kmc> with out of order and speculative execution the ISA registers are assigned to physical registers on the fly
02:25:28 <kmc> but that's still different from executing arbitrary microcode of course
02:25:54 <ais523> yes, there are tens or hundreds of actual physical registers, and the only purpose register names like rax is to let the processor know which outputs of which instructions should be connected to which inputs of which other instructions
02:26:50 <ais523> although, there *is* an actual register rax, but it isn't used most of the time (its purpose is to remember what data is in the register the programmer thinks of as "rax" in the case that rax isn't mentioned for a very long time but its value becomes relevant again in some later code, without being overwritten)
02:27:34 <ais523> if a register isn't used for so long that it falls out of the register allocation table, the processor needs some way to remember where it's storing the value of the register in question, that's why there's a permanent register file
02:28:27 <ais523> apparently old Intel processors had a bandwidth limitation on the permanent register file, and the processor would stall if you suddenly accessed three registers simultaneously that hadn't been accessed for ages, although that's been fixed in more recent processors
02:29:59 <kmc> does the VT-x VMCS contain MSRs? it must have some
02:30:01 <kmc> like the FS base
02:30:18 <kmc> so those are sort of promoted to ISA registers and are not really "model specific" in the same way
02:30:26 <ais523> I don't know, I haven't looked into how virtualisation is implemented
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02:30:37 <ais523> arguably, the virtualisation is itself a model
02:30:42 <ais523> I wonder if it can define its own MSRs
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02:31:13 <kmc> I think you can set it to trap to the hypervisor on all MSR access
02:31:19 <ais523> oh, something else aggravating that I discovered recently is that Intel and AMD encode their cache information differently in the CPUID output
02:31:21 <kmc> probably intended so that you can emulate MSRs that don't exist on your physical CPU
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02:32:19 <ais523> fortunately, the value you care most about in code is normally the size of the L2 cache, and although you get almost entirely zeroes if you use AMD's method for accessing cache information on an Intel processor, the value for the L2 cache size specifically is filled in in the same format that you get on an AMD processor
02:32:30 <ais523> so you just get a few random L2 cache parameters in a sea of zeroes
02:32:42 <ais523> presumably, Intel had to implement that to avoid breaking existing software
02:33:01 <ais523> (this is documented, too, as a guarantee that you can find the L2 cache information there)
02:34:21 <ais523> looks like it's L2 cache line size, L2 cache size, L2 cache associativity, and the other 29 values that the cpuid call is meant to return are all zeroes, and this is documented behaviour
02:34:40 <ais523> at least this makes it easy to write L2-cache-aware programs that function on both Intel and AMD processors
02:36:24 <kmc> cpuid is another wastebasket taxon of an instruction
02:36:30 <kmc> wasn't it used as a memory fence on some CPUs??
02:37:03 <ais523> not memory fence, though
02:37:06 <ais523> instruction ordering fence
02:37:21 <ais523> all the instructions before the cpuid are guaranteed to run before any instruction after the cpuid does
02:37:32 <ais523> there are a few other instructions with that property, cpuid might be the fastest though?
02:37:40 <ais523> it's vaguely useful for things like cycle-accurate benchmarking
02:38:02 <ais523> if you want a proper memory fence you need mfence, not cpuid, because I don't think cpuid guarantees things like stores having reached memory
02:39:47 <ais523> oh, it's also worth noting that most stores on x86 have an implicit sfence on them (you need to jump through hoops to get an un-sfenced store)
02:39:56 <ais523> so mfence and lfence are useful, but sfence is virtually useless
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03:13:03 <ais523> oh wow, browsing instruction lists, I just discovered why LDDQU exists (when MOVDQU also exists)
03:13:31 <kmc> x86 is so stupidly complicated :(
03:13:39 <ais523> it's a different-performance-properties variant: LDDQU is designed to have high throughput for unaligned data which isn't being written at the time
03:14:01 <ais523> whereas MOVDQU is designed to have low latency, especially when the data has been written recently or is about to be written back
03:14:09 <kmc> interesting
03:14:17 <kmc> does that mean lddqu bypasses some caches?
03:14:37 <ais523> also LDDQU can over-read on either side and is explicitly allowed to read the same memory twice
03:14:44 <ais523> my guess is that LDDQU is bypassing the store-forwarding buffer
03:15:24 <ais523> (which you can think of as the "L0 cache")
03:15:39 <ais523> but it only caches writes, not reads
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05:05:26 <zzo38> Did you read the document I linked? Maybe you have some idea for improvement, too.
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06:15:15 <esowiki> [[PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80736&oldid=80723 * Quintopia * (+2019) Add implementation
06:18:26 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80737&oldid=80090 * Quintopia * (+55) python impls
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13:19:31 <esowiki> [[Assignless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80738&oldid=52732 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) Cats, stub
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16:44:07 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80739&oldid=80692 * Digital Hunter * (+829) /* Example programs */ added a pi calculator program
16:45:08 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80740&oldid=80739 * Digital Hunter * (+53) /* Deadfish interpreter */
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17:06:43 <b_jonas> fungot: in English, do people really pronounce "chassis" with the final "s" silent? if so, why?
17:06:44 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, i should just like to say that this problem cannot be available. mr bolkestein, i should like to take this stand because of certain wordings such as " the farmer's privilege'. i also think it is very important that this trend must now be incorporated into the constitution in its entirety to the whole of africa is dramatic. i am an optimist: this situation also has benefits. for in the final analysis, t
17:08:16 <b_jonas> I don't think that answers my question
17:10:13 <int-e> . o O ( faux francaise )
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19:58:37 <b_jonas> I called the customer service of a fast-food restaurant because they put fewer food into my delivery than I payed for. They gave me a coupon for my next order. The customer service rep on the phone told me that he'd talk to the restaurant and then call me back. fungot, do you think he really talked to the restaurant before calling me back, or is this just something they say?
19:58:37 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, presidents of parliament pass by, honourable members, who will not, in the case of these condemned women. speaking fnord, the indiscriminate use of force and that is perhaps even more significant than others and it has the resources. the rapporteur has had to do was to protest about the electronics here. i am therefore favourable to these amendments on board, but they are some of the discussions on intern
19:59:06 <b_jonas> this euparl or brexit style isn't really suitable for these sorts of questions
19:59:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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20:15:00 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
20:15:04 <b_jonas> I called the customer service of a fast-food restaurant because they put fewer food into my delivery than I payed for. They gave me a coupon for my next order. The customer service rep on the phone told me that he'd talk to the restaurant and then call me back. fungot, do you think he really talked to the restaurant before calling me back, or is this just something they say?
20:15:05 <fungot> b_jonas: here, i'll prove it, too, will take what i can get a little of that back with them, dromiceiomimus what's up, champ! here, have some lego. if people wanted traditional! they want new and sexy
20:22:38 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80741&oldid=80710 * Quintopia * (+0) fix truth-machine
20:26:11 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80742&oldid=80741 * Quintopia * (+2207) impl
20:26:24 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80743&oldid=80742 * Quintopia * (-1) /* Python 3 */
20:26:51 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80744&oldid=80743 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Python 3 */
20:27:36 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80745&oldid=80737 * Quintopia * (+13)
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20:44:13 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80746&oldid=80744 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) /* Semantics */ Fix typo; "clarify" n<2
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20:51:55 <arseniiv> I’m reading “DSP tutorial for the braindead”. Some lore there
20:52:44 <arseniiv> I cornered myself up in trying to generate a sine wave most effectively, using nothing more than numpy
20:55:44 <arseniiv> also I want to experiment with noisy tonal oscillators and try to use convolution with a fake gaussian for that (piecewise quadratic for large sigmas and binomial for small ones, which I hasn’t implemented yet, and both I haven’t yet tested)
20:57:24 <arseniiv> the end goal is to mess with timbres with harmonics with various irrational rations between them, like golden ratio or sqrt(2). I’m a tad slow and lazy with all that though
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21:15:11 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80747&oldid=80746 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Implementations */ See resources
21:15:51 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80748&oldid=80747 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) /* External resources */ GitHub
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21:42:43 <arseniiv> kmc: I thought you might like this topic yeah :)
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23:31:35 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80749&oldid=80740 * Digital Hunter * (-15) /* Fibonacci numbers */ shorter one ..
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23:40:23 <esowiki> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80750 * CatCatDeluxe * (+4256) Created page with "C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(C) is a C-like programming language created to be very hard and annoying to read and write. It has the same langua..."
23:41:16 <esowiki> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80751&oldid=80750 * CatCatDeluxe * (+8)
23:45:15 <esowiki> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80752&oldid=80751 * CatCatDeluxe * (+66)
23:48:17 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80753&oldid=79923 * CatCatDeluxe * (+162)
23:48:41 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80754&oldid=80753 * CatCatDeluxe * (+66)
23:49:20 <esowiki> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80755&oldid=80752 * CatCatDeluxe * (+64)
23:50:37 <esowiki> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80756&oldid=80755 * CatCatDeluxe * (+67)
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00:11:27 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80757&oldid=80726 * Quintopia * (+38) quine 2 needs a lot of trailing spaces to be a true quine
00:28:51 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80758&oldid=80757 * Quintopia * (+191) /* Quine */
00:37:51 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80759&oldid=80758 * Quintopia * (-44) /* Quine */
00:38:24 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80760&oldid=80759 * Quintopia * (-1) /* Quine */
00:41:59 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80761&oldid=80760 * Quintopia * (-2) /* Quine */
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01:05:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh! I found the third root. "http://zzo38computer.org/sql/"
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02:12:32 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80762&oldid=80749 * Digital Hunter * (+906) /* Example programs */ added a phi calculator program
02:13:39 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80763&oldid=80762 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Phi calculator */
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03:25:52 <ais523> I figured out a solution that doesn't involve mapping over NULL: put the block of memory you're iterating over at 0x80000000 exactly, use 32-bit arithmetic on your 64-bit pointers (this zero-extends the top 32 bits but they're all zeroes anyway), and then the sign flag will contain bit 31 rather than bit 63
03:26:11 <ais523> so you know you've gone below the bottom of your block when the 8 borrows down to a 7
03:26:40 <ais523> (you can also do this the other way, counting upwards and making your memory block end at 0x7fffffff)
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03:28:41 <ais523> you could also use any address where bit 16 is a 1 and bits 15..0 are all zeroes, then use 16-bit arithmetic, but there are potential performance hazards with 16-bit arithmetic
03:29:01 <ais523> a false dependency probably wouldn't be too bad for this sort of application, but partial register merge stalls would be horrible
03:29:10 <ais523> (also, it costs an extra byte)
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03:32:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: There are some additional files too. What is your opinion about the format I mentioned for mirroring (that I linked the document that I wrote)?
03:33:50 <zzo38> (For transfer purposes, it may be helpful for the request and response to be compressed, too)
03:34:03 <ais523> <b_jonas> fungot: in English, do people really pronounce "chassis" with the final "s" silent? if so, why? ← yes, they do, also the initial "ch" is pronounced "sh", and the "i" is pronounced as a long "e"
03:34:03 <fungot> ais523: a good choice, then i'm going to make mistaks so bad that they kill me, and a parallel! they're not writing stories about what life would be like, if only you made some decisions okay
03:34:48 <ais523> apparently it's a loanword from French (châssis), and English often borrows approximate pronunciations of loanwords
03:38:35 <zzo38> Yes, although some people pronounce some words differently, so sometimes there is more than one way in the dictionary
03:39:14 <zzo38> (Sometimes one way to pronounce it is only applicable to one meaning of the word)
03:44:37 * ais523 vaguely wonders if loanwords ever get returned to their original languages
03:45:52 <ais523> if you're going to keep it, it's more like theft than borrowing
03:47:23 <zzo38> Many words are still used in their original languages, I think.
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03:56:23 <zzo38> (Although, sometimes there are already good English words, sometimes the one that isn't so common now, though. And, sometimes, should have to make up the new word; sometimes no language has the suitable words already.)
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06:43:27 <zzo38> I watched Murdoch Mysteries; they mentioned that the mathematician proved they could not solve the puzzle with the last two letters reversed (it is a puzzle like the 15 puzzle). But, they failed to consider, there are many duplicate letters. Is that deliberate? Did they know that is relevant?
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11:16:08 <b_jonas> ais523 re mapping over NULL, I believe you have to pass the MAP_FIXED_NOREPLACE flag to the fourth arg of mmap, but that might not be enough. I thought there was a process-wide prctl setting that protects you from mapping to 0 address by default, but didn't require privilege to override. you might want to check sources of old versions of dosemu (or possibly other real mode emulators) that use virtual
11:16:14 <b_jonas> 8086 mode under an x86_32 kernel, because I think that will map to the zero page.
11:18:59 <b_jonas> but I never really experimented with it, because I don't want a page mapped at zero address.
11:19:59 <b_jonas> ah, fizzie found the solution
11:23:09 <b_jonas> "<ais523> maybe I should just use a %fs: prefix" => I think that's reserved for libc and similar to implement thread-local variables, so you have to be careful
11:24:06 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I don't even think there's an official piece of documentation anywhere for how you make a system call from userspace" => man 2 syscall mostly documents it. some details about connection with signal handlers might be undocumented for all I know
11:24:45 <b_jonas> but for the syscall numbers themselves, you have to look them up in the header or include the header
11:25:02 <b_jonas> and the ABI of some syscalls might not be documented, so you may have to look them up in libc source code
11:25:08 <b_jonas> it is documented for some of them
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11:26:56 <b_jonas> I assume you already know that, rather than using the counter as an index, incrementing both the counter and pointers in two/three/four separate registers is often the best, and you're just doing weird golf here
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11:31:09 <b_jonas> ah I see, the following conversation details how the fs and gs segment descriptors are used on x86_64.
11:31:13 <b_jonas> I didn't know most of that.
11:31:48 <b_jonas> I didn't even know that you can use _both_ fs and gs, with nontrivial effect, on x86_64. I thought only one of them was available.
11:36:43 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (that said, if the kernel is going to be assigning a meaning to ud1 combinations, maybe they aren't a good suggestion for intentionally illegal instructions)" => it won't, or at least there's a certain undefined instruction that is used to always trigger an error and so won't be assigned meaning, because gcc emits it in some cases for abort() or less optimized unreachable paths
11:37:18 <b_jonas> but there are plenty of system mode only instructions that will raise privilage faults, and so can be used to assign some meaning.
11:39:00 <b_jonas> plus there's also syscall and int and int 3 all those things for when you want to assign meaning to an instruction that will be handled by either the kernel or a signal handler, plus you can use an access to an invalid address or other faults
11:47:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure it's useful to define a mirror protocol from your side. you just use the protocol by archive.org or debian or github or MS Onedrive or Google Drive, because they're the ones with the warehouses full of hard disks and mirroring stuff from you.
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12:54:56 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80764&oldid=78625 * Kekcsi * (+500) added details
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19:13:53 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, this is definitely well into "weird golf" territory, this sort of thing would be insane to do for other reasons
19:14:15 <ais523> I am basically planning to define my own ABI for the program, and am not using libc
19:14:46 <ais523> (even so, you have to turn off gcc stack protectors because they assume that %fs:(0x28) is a piece of thread-local storage not used by anything else)
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19:27:36 <b_jonas> ais523: yes. that gets difficult.
19:28:02 <ais523> I'm entirely willing to write this completely in asm if necessary
19:28:20 <ais523> currently torn about whether the non-performance-sensitive parts should be in asm or in C
19:28:47 <ais523> gcc lets you reserve a register for your own use program-wide, which is pretty useful for defining your own ABIs (it does, however, spout warnings if library functions overwrite it)
19:30:27 <b_jonas> "gcc lets you reserve a register for your own use program-wide" => I wonder for what architecture they added that
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19:31:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I think it's for people doing very low level high-performance asm stuff where they want to keep global variables in registers
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19:33:40 <b_jonas> ais523: but keeping a global variable constantly in a register is weird, even for a high-performance asm stuff. keeping a global variable in a register temporarily during a function or hot loop, that makes sense, but ordinary compiler optimizations can already do that.
19:34:30 <b_jonas> and doing it locally has much fewer problems with ABI compatibility
19:35:03 <ais523> b_jonas: there are some platforms where the number of registers is large compared to the size of RAM
19:35:38 <ais523> and some algorithms where you don't want to touch memory at all
19:38:24 <ais523> really, having a large number of global variables is normally an issue with your program in the first place, and if you have only a small number, keeping them in registers might make sense depending on how widely they're used
19:39:03 <ais523> I actually ran into a problem like this in aimake – its C output contains a lot of functions that call each other, and gcc seems unwilling to change the ABI of a function that isn't inlined
19:39:24 <b_jonas> ais523: number of registers is large => MMIX is one of them, 6502 may be one if you count the zero-page bytes as registers. maybe x86_64 with AVX512 and its 32 vector registers could count as one, but the problem is, you can't guarantee that they're preserved through callers
19:39:34 <ais523> it would make sense for all the internal state of the parsing automaton to be in global variables for just that source file
19:39:44 <ais523> which I think could be accomplished via that gcc feature
19:39:46 <b_jonas> "some algorithms where you don't want to touch memory at all" => in a hot loop. not in a whole program.
19:40:21 <ais523> some registers, like %r14, are hardly ever used as it is
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19:41:10 <ais523> oh, I was thinking of the PIC microcontrollers, which normally have around 100 or so bytes of registers, and often fewer bytes of general-purpose memory (40 or so)
19:41:29 <ais523> the documentation goes into a lot of detail on what registers you can use as extra memory under which circumstances
19:42:09 <ais523> (the whole purpose of the PIC is to have a lot of register-mapped hardware available, so most of the registers have side effects when read and/or written)
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19:44:11 <b_jonas> ais523: re parsing, just put that internal state to the first argument (or first few arguments) of all your function, then the ABI will force them to be in registers (%rdi then %rsi for linux, or %xmm0 then %xmm1 depending on type), at least in the boundaries of those functions. whether it's a C function argument or a C++ *this argument is mostly irrelevant.
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19:44:40 <kmc> what's the syntax for globally reserving a register in GCC?
19:44:41 <ais523> b_jonas: that was my first idea, but C isn't call-by-name and much of the internal state is writable
19:45:09 <ais523> kmc: register type varname asm("registername");
19:45:22 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, so you want to return the modified state in the same register? that might be harder, yes.
19:45:37 <kmc> I think GHC's old C backend used that
19:46:04 <b_jonas> I guess you could write a specialized backend to the parser generator that writes x86_64 assembly directly
19:46:31 <ais523> b_jonas: I was working on that but stalled on it
19:47:40 <kmc> there were actually two flavors of the C backend, "registerized" and "unregisterized"
19:48:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I also have a hard time imagining that this parser register thing is an optimization that will solve an actual bottleneck
19:48:31 <kmc> the unregisterized backend outputted something reasonably close to standard C, and was good for portability, but bad for performance
19:48:49 <kmc> among other things it used a "mini interpreter" for computed tail calls
19:49:15 <ais523> b_jonas: I would imagine that the bottlenecks on parsing would be one of L1 read, L1 write, instruction decode, or instruction issue
19:49:34 <ais523> and putting the important parser variables into registers would seem to reduce pressure on all four of those?
19:50:00 <kmc> something like void *(*f)(); while (1) { f = f(); }
19:50:35 <kmc> so a computed tail call / jump (which are the main ubiquitous form of control flow in compiled haskell code) compiled to a return and a call, which is not very efficient
19:50:46 <ais523> of course, the *real* bottleneck is probably reading the file that stores the information you're parsing, it wouldn't help with that bottleneck at all
19:51:03 <kmc> then there was the registerized backend, which output horribly GCC-dependent code and mangled the resulting assembly further with a huge perl script
19:51:09 <kmc> and was only ever implemented for a few architectures
19:51:29 <ais523> kmc: it's not that inefficient (2-3 clock cycles on most processors) unless mispredicted
19:51:31 <kmc> in that case the advantage of producing C was not portability but rather the ability to use GCC codegen and optimizations
19:51:56 <kmc> ais523: well, it may have been worse in the early days when this was first implemented
19:52:00 <ais523> but an unconditional jump costs ¼ of a clock cycle, so is faster
19:52:09 <ais523> (assuming that you don't space them too tightly)
19:53:15 <kmc> what do you mean by 1/4 of a clock cycle? i can see that being meaningful for arithmetic (if you can execute 4 instructions at once) but how does it work for control flow
19:53:51 <ais523> kmc: on Intel processors, there are four main execution units for arithmetic, etc., 0, 1, 5, and 6 (AMD processors also have four but they're named differently)
19:54:01 <ais523> each can handle a subset of instructions
19:54:27 <ais523> jumps tie up port 6 for a cycle, probably so that they can be reversed if they turn out to have been mispredicted
19:54:46 <ais523> (6 is also usable for very basic arithmetic/logic, things like adds and xors)
19:55:07 <b_jonas> ais523: there is probably at least some esoteric valid optimization use for this global register thing
19:55:23 <ais523> and everything else about a jump happens in parallel with your arithmetic and logic, so it costs no time at all as long as jumps aren't too densely packed as it isn't on the critical path of the processor
19:55:42 <ais523> jumps also cost one instruction issue and one instruction retire, but Intel processors handle those at the rate of 4 per cycle
19:56:05 <ais523> so it's taking up almost exactly ¼ of the resources that you get each clock cycle
19:56:21 <ais523> /away for a little while
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19:58:26 <b_jonas> if the code is execution bound that is.
20:05:42 <ais523> b_jonas: it's actually close to theoretically impossible for code to be execution bound in general, on modern processors
20:06:16 <ais523> it can only really happen in the case of instructions that take multiple clock cycles and can't be pipelined
20:06:47 <ais523> in other cases, it's impossible to feed instructions into the execution units faster than the execution units can process them
20:07:09 <ais523> you can get a sort-of execution-bound when your code is trying to use one particular execution unit more than it can manage, though
20:07:33 <ais523> (e.g. recent Intel processors can only run vector shuffle operations on port 5, so your code will be execution-bound if it's trying to do those at a rate of more than one per cycle)
20:08:33 <b_jonas> "close to theoretically impossible for code to be execution bound in general" => yes.
20:09:01 <ais523> in AMD processors, the rest of the pipeline is faster compared to Intel processors, so those are more likely to become execution bound
20:09:09 * kmc wonders how they ended up named 0, 1, 5, and 6
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20:09:40 <kmc> it's like the old prank with the 3 pigs labeled "1", "2", and "4"
20:09:47 <ais523> e.g. if you write a few thousand register-register integer addition instructions in a row, that will be execution-bound because there are only four adders available and yet the rest of the pipeline could handle six addition instructions per cycle
20:09:56 <ais523> kmc: 2, 3, 4, 7 also exist but aren't ALUs
20:10:27 <ais523> 2 and 3 are used for memory read operations (read-modify instructions will use both 2 or 3, and one of 0/1/5/6, simultaneously)
20:10:40 <ais523> 4 is used for all memory writes (so you can only write memory once per clock cycle)
20:10:54 <ais523> and 7 is an address generation unit for writes
20:11:04 <ais523> but what confuses me is that 7 isn't *always* used for writes, even though it can't do anything else
20:11:13 <kmc> does that mean LEA-arithmetic happens on 7?
20:11:19 <ais523> sometimes writes will borrow the AGU from port 2 or 3
20:11:41 <ais523> LEA-arithmetic has varied on how it's done from processor to processor, but most modern processors do it on an ALU rather than an AGU
20:11:48 <ais523> so that the AGUs don't need to be told how to write registers
20:12:50 <kmc> (my wife says someone actually did the thing with the pigs at her high school)
20:12:54 <ais523> it looks like on recent Intel complex LEAs need to be done on port 1, simpler LEAs can be done on port 1 or 5
20:12:57 <kmc> (this is what happens when you grow up in farm country?)
20:14:11 <ais523> I'm never sure what counts as a complex LEA, but suspect it's something like index + base + displacement all being specified
20:14:51 <ais523> also, RIP-relative addresses are "slow" on modern processors for some reason, they tend to require complex-AGU resources even though they're conceptually quite simple
20:15:04 <ais523> (e.g. needing to go via port 1 for RIP-relative LEAs)
20:15:29 <ais523> probably the difficulty is in how %rip itself gets routed, because it isn't register-renamed like most registers are
20:19:11 <b_jonas> as in as slow as a double indexing
20:21:04 <ais523> oh, I think I figured out why memory writes can use the AGU from port 2 or 3
20:21:21 <ais523> it's so that if there's a read-modify-write instruction, the read and write use the same AGU as each other
20:22:08 <ais523> it also wouldn't surprise me if port 7 were a recent addition, and if earlier processors just used 2 and 3 as the only AGUs available
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20:30:14 <b_jonas> I don't follow all the details of the execution units. the practical effect is that it's often worth to interleave simple operations if they don't have dependencies either way. which is also why incrementing two pointers in parallel can be better than indexing, and the pointer compare-and-jump can go parallel with the computation.
20:32:04 <b_jonas> so in practice in those kinds of tight loops you want to optimize for decoder and decoded cache, after of course you arrange multiple loops to operate on nice L1-cache-sized chunks so the L2 cache doesn't bind you
20:34:03 <b_jonas> modeling the different execution units in detail rarely helps you. the execution latencies of the instructions do matter, but which execution units they can run on rarely does.
20:34:28 <b_jonas> unless you're writing a BLAS.
20:35:14 <ais523> interleaving doesn't help as much as you might think, because of how the reorder buffer works
20:35:29 <ais523> what you do need to do is to keep the loop-carried-dependency chain as short as possible, though
20:36:10 <ais523> because that will often be the limiting factor on how fast a loop can run
20:36:25 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean the order you write the interleaved instructions doesn't matter as much? yes.
20:36:55 <ais523> b_jonas: right, the order of instructions is mostly irrelevant on out-of-order processors (which includes most modern processors apart from intentionally low-power-usage ones)
20:37:15 <ais523> they can be moved quite some distance (tens of instructions) in order to get them to run as early as possible
20:37:29 <ais523> I've discovered that the main effect from moving instructions round is to decrease register pressure
20:38:05 <ais523> if you have a temporary register that you need only for the course of a few instructions, it works best to put those instructions right next to each other so that the same register name can be reused as a temporary in a different block of instructions
20:38:12 <ais523> rather than needing to keep it live
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20:39:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that can allow shorter instr encodings.
20:43:00 <ais523> or in extreme cases, avoid spills
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00:31:37 <esowiki> [[User:Shimakaze-Kan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80765 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+5) Created page with "Ohayo"
00:41:45 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80766&oldid=80763 * Digital Hunter * (+869) /* Example programs */ added an e calculator program
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03:56:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Polybagel * uploaded "[[File:Main interface.png]]"
03:59:07 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80768&oldid=80761 * Quintopia * (-6) /* Quine */
03:59:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Polybagel * uploaded "[[File:Hello world.png]]"
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04:06:51 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck compiler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80770 * Polybagel * (+1527) Created page with "== Brainfuck Compiler, Created by Polybagel == <b>What is the brainfuck compiler?</b> The brainfuck compiler is a simple program that allows you to either copy paste, manual..."
04:19:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Suever * New user account
04:22:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80771&oldid=80720 * Suever * (+205) Introduce myself
04:23:45 <esowiki> [[MATL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80772&oldid=79432 * Suever * (+0) Update MATL Online link
04:59:56 <zzo38> I remember many years ago I read a book of puzzles, including a puzzle about a poker game where the players take whatever cards they want, and a puzzle about minimizing probabilities in a loaded dice game, and a 15-puzzle with duplicate tiles, and some other stuff; it also included the puzzle that I see in other books too about three people taking turns shooting each other.
05:00:37 <zzo38> It also contained some puzzles that the author did not know the answer. I do not remember the title nor author's name, but I seem to remember (I may be mistaken) that it was printed with black and red ink. Do you know?
05:04:25 <nakilon> I know only a Martin Gardner
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06:06:28 <zzo38> I know of Martin Gardner too, but I don't know if that was the author (I think it wasn't his style, but I may be mistaken). I also have not seen many of these puzzles in other books or computer, except where I wrote them myself from remembering them.
06:07:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80773&oldid=79327 * DanielCristofani * (+241) /* Input\Output format */
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06:21:17 <Arcorann> What type of puzzle is this? I might be familiar with it
06:21:55 <nakilon> 07:59:56 <zzo38> I remember many years ago I read a book of puzzles, including a puzzle about a poker game where the players take whatever cards they want, and a puzzle about minimizing probabilities in a loaded dice game, and a 15-puzzle with duplicate tiles, and some other stuff; it also included the puzzle that I see in other books too about
06:21:55 <nakilon> three people taking turns shooting each other.
06:21:55 <nakilon> 08:00:37 <zzo38> It also contained some puzzles that the author did not know the answer. I do not remember the title nor author's name, but I seem to remember (I may be mistaken) that it was printed with black and red ink. Do you know?
06:24:46 <zzo38> The puzzle with the dice is: You have two dice. One is loaded so that it is always five. Assign the probabilities for the numbers on the other dice in order to minimize the probability of winning.
06:25:17 <Arcorann> What's the definition of winning
06:27:57 <zzo38> If they total seven or eleven on your first roll, then you win. A total of two or three or twelve on your first roll is a loss (impossible with the stated conditions). Otherwise, repeating the total of the first roll before rolling seven wins; seven before the same total as the first roll loses.
06:32:48 <zzo38> The other puzzle is the card game. Its rules are: First player selects any five cards. Second player selects any five of the remaining cards. First player discards any of their cards they wish, and draw replacements from the remaining cards. Second player does likewise (I think drawing from the discards is not allowed, but I do not remember). By what strategy can the first player guarantee a win?
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06:58:06 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80774&oldid=80621 * ThatCookie * (+1)
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08:41:36 <wib_jonas> zzo38: can it be one of Smullyan's book? the specific puzzles don't ring a bell, but the general description does, and I haven't read all his books.
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09:11:43 <wib_jonas> oh hey, a video of the Wiener Philharmoniker Neujahrskonzert 2021 is on youtube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apUtLa5bOtQ . It's not the original ORF version, it's a BBC one, but that is probably already better than what I have.
09:12:51 <wib_jonas> The sound quality is terrible, but that's probably because of the earphone I'm using here in the office. I'll check at home.
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12:58:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mdilella * New user account
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13:13:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80775&oldid=80771 * Mdilella * (+107) /* Introductions */
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14:04:12 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80776 * Mdilella * (+545) Created page with "Hi, I've done a lot of experiments with Logisim in an attempt to make machines that can run BF code natively. Looking for maximum simplicity I opted for Von Neumann architectu..."
14:11:24 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80777&oldid=80776 * Mdilella * (+57)
14:11:49 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80778&oldid=80777 * Mdilella * (-7)
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14:14:27 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80779&oldid=80778 * Mdilella * (-11)
14:15:29 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80780&oldid=80779 * Mdilella * (+15)
14:15:34 <nakilon> lol, few years ago I made an improved modification of some existing algorithm of perceptual image diffing -- the thing to compare images, measure the distance between them
14:16:39 <nakilon> I was thinking what examples to make to just show how to call the two methods calculate_fingerprint and compare_fingerprints, very simple
14:17:20 <nakilon> one example was a script to "find duplicate photos in a folder" and another one was an improvised OCR
14:18:47 <nakilon> few lines of a script are just rendering 26 latin letters with the built-in default Arial font, calculate the fingerprints, then it takes an input image, trivially cuts it into rectangles of letters and compares with known "training set" of just 26 letters
14:19:48 <nakilon> for a test I took a screenshot of a text from some font website with a bit different Arial and it did two little errors in 9 input words
14:21:03 <nakilon> of course better OCR of such kind would be trained on different variants of the font, would apply the dictionary, etc., there are different ways to improve the tool with minimal effort but it was just a few lines long demo of how to call the two methods
14:22:11 <nakilon> and now I see that someone has starred a real OCR project on github -- a project with 10k stars, 64 contributors, thousands lines of code, a bunch of technologies used, neural networks, etc.
14:23:11 <nakilon> I upload the same image to their demo website and you know what? it does not 2 but 3 error and they are huge, just ruining one of 9 words
14:24:02 <nakilon> so few lines long script that wasn't even supposed to be a usable OCR tool did better job than...
14:24:18 <nakilon> it's just another "everything you should know about neural networks"
14:24:34 <nakilon> or "modern AI industry", whatever
14:24:56 <nakilon> how much effort and money they put in that...
14:43:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Mdilella * uploaded "[[File:2021-02-17 15-32-13.gif]]"
14:43:38 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80782&oldid=80780 * Mdilella * (+38)
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19:09:21 <b_jonas> fungot, can you solve linear programs?
19:09:22 <fungot> b_jonas: it's a very tricky to sound natural, then you can't sleep at all, then you go demented and then you die, we're giving dinosaur comics to the marmaduke guy. sincerely, the man, you must really have been something!
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19:45:05 <esowiki> [[Bitcoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80784 * Expliked * (+1234) Created page with "Bitcoin is a brainfuck-derivative joke language, where you can only increment or decrement the pointer by the current price of bitcoin. == Commands == sell : increment the..."
19:47:07 <esowiki> [[Bitcoin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80785&oldid=80784 * Expliked * (+67) cats
19:49:14 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80786&oldid=80714 * Expliked * (+87) Added Bitcoin
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19:51:06 <esowiki> [[Bitcoin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80787&oldid=80785 * Expliked * (+56) more cats (is this language even turing-complete???)
19:51:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitcoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80788 * Expliked * (+118) Created page with "== Turing-completeness == Given this is a brainfuck-derivative, wouldn't this language be considered Turing-complete??"
19:52:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80789&oldid=80788 * Expliked * (+29)
19:53:16 <esowiki> [[User:Expliked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80790&oldid=79169 * Expliked * (+122)
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20:35:44 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80792&oldid=80766 * Digital Hunter * (+353) /* Example programs */ described the mathematical constant approximation programs.
20:52:10 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80793&oldid=80568 * Not applicable * (+8) remove wip
21:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80794&oldid=80789 * Keymaker * (+156) /* Turing-completeness */
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21:50:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80795&oldid=80794 * Ais523 * (+634) being a BF derivative isn't enough to make it TC; however, it's TC anyway because you can compile BF-- into it
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03:22:14 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80796&oldid=80657 * Hakerh400 * (+2769) Add interpreter, add INP instruction for input, explain computational class, revert old examples
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05:27:02 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80797&oldid=80796 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Computational class */
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07:14:49 <zzo38> I had designed a computer video processor before (never implemented), with its own instruction set, and during each scanline you can set the addresses for the planes and index data independently, even overlapping if you want to.
07:15:47 <zzo38> Although not the intention, I later realized that one effect that can be generated with this without too much difficulty is drop shadows. At first I thought only vertical drop shadows, but later I realized how to do drop shadows in any direction (other than purely horizontally), by skewing the picture.
07:16:01 <zzo38> Other effects that were not the intention are probably also possible.
07:16:19 <zzo38> (As well as some that probably were the intention at first.)
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07:32:53 <zzo38> Stealth Thrower {?} Creature - ? (1/1) ;; {T}: ~ deals 3 damage to target creature or planeswalker. Flip a coin; if heads, shuffle ~ and all permanents attached to it into their owner's library.
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09:28:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AGuy * New user account
09:38:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80798&oldid=80775 * AGuy * (+78) /* Introductions */
09:41:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80799&oldid=80798 * AGuy * (+8) /* Introductions */
09:43:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80800&oldid=80799 * AGuy * (+30) /* Introductions */
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09:51:02 <wib_jonas> ah yes, the internet is so great. if the latest fashionable app that job wants us to use, and there's a problem with it, I can use a web search to find other people complaining about the same problem.
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10:13:23 <wib_jonas> for reference, the Microsoft Teams non-browser version does not care about Windows's locale when displaying datetimes. It has its own locale settings, but you can't set date formats, only pick a full locale that includes messages. A partial workaround is to select United Kingdom as its locale, which at least displays times like "14:00" instead of
10:13:23 <wib_jonas> "2:00 PM" or "2:00 p.m.", but still uses a weird format for dates.
10:19:07 <fizzie> Are the UK dates DD/MM/YYYY? That's what I mostly see here, which I'm reasonably okay with given that it's in the "right" order, but OTOH using slashes makes it look one of those bad US dates.
10:21:21 <wib_jonas> fizzie: it displays "Thursday, 18 February 2021 @ 14:00" as long datetime, and apparently "Yesterday" and "12/02 09:52" for abbreviated datetime, and even "12 Feb 2021 09:52" as a tooltip for that.
10:21:43 <wib_jonas> I haven't seen "DD/MM/YYYY" yet, but perhaps I'll find it elsewhere. there are many tabs and plugins.
10:22:19 <wib_jonas> ah yes, there's a "15/06/2020 21:51" too
10:24:20 <fizzie> Right, I didn't think of the "text" ones. But DD/MM and DD/MM/YYYY (and maybe DD/MM/YY) are common "numeric" ones.
10:25:40 <wib_jonas> Windows and its built-in programs like Explorer are made well enough, less affected by fashionable trends of replacing apps every year, so File Explorer says "2020-08-29 17:14" for a file modification time
10:26:23 <wib_jonas> Outlook is somewhere in between, it shows "2021-02-05" sometimes, but also "Fri 02-12" for more recent mails.
10:26:38 <wib_jonas> and "Sun 19:22" for even more recent ones.
10:28:22 <esowiki> [[User:AGuy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80801 * AGuy * (+257) Who I Am
10:46:02 <nakilon> remember I told about the letter Ёё,
10:46:41 <nakilon> there is a monument in its honor: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B5_%C2%AB%D1%91%C2%BB
10:48:19 <nakilon> oh there is also a monument to this one https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B5_%D3%A7
10:48:43 <nakilon> it's from a sub-Russia republic alphabet https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8
10:49:05 <nakilon> (above link in English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_alphabets)
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11:07:28 <wib_jonas> nakilon: I wanted to say that I find a monument to a letter strange, but then I realized that we in Budapest have a statue of the numeral zero in the city https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Zero_Kilometre_Stone_(Budapest)
11:20:04 <fizzie> I don't think anyone's put up a monument for the letters ä, ö or å in Finland. Though I guess it wouldn't surprise me hugely if there was a big Å somewhere on Åland Islands.
11:50:29 <nakilon> wib_jonas that monument looks like I wlll not say what
11:55:07 <wib_jonas> It's a numeral 0\, not a numeral 1
12:05:21 <wib_jonas> fungot, why does this script work only if I give a type to this function parameter, not if I leave the type undeclared? that shouldn't matter in VBA, except sometimes for giving an error message if the wrong type is passed.
12:05:21 <fungot> wib_jonas: don't people say that there's only one person you can have a low moral fibre. you can only have poor ethical training, t-rex
12:06:09 <wib_jonas> and what the heck happens when I don't declare the type and I get a silent error that halfway pretends to work but doesn't actually
12:11:20 <nakilon> t-rex, you only have poor ethical training
12:20:05 <nakilon> they look different in my terminal font and the same in IRC
12:20:55 * nakilon thought sanitizing 800'000 news websites article titles would be easy
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12:54:31 <fizzie> I tried to write a macro in LibreOffice Basic once, and found it approximately as painful as VBA.
12:55:23 <fizzie> (I think it lets you write in Python too, though.)
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18:10:49 <b_jonas> #esoteric, I have basic dumb questions about how modern web security works. there are two types of attacks where a website can try to abuse that the user has cookies to another website in the same browser. the first type is when the user tries to submit a form on https://anime.example , but the form target is actually https://bank.example/send which sends money to the owner of anime.example , and if the
18:10:55 <b_jonas> user happens to be logged into https://bank.example with the cookie, then this will use the user's bank account. there's an old method to protect against this first type: the bank.example's actual form has an unpredictable token in a hidden input field that the server checks on submit, anime.example can't forge that token in their own form. but you can't use that to fix all attacks of the second kind,
18:11:01 <b_jonas> which is when https://anime.example has a button-sized iframe that loads https://bank.example and scrolls it to where hopefully the send button will appear, and pretends that that button is the review anime episode button so the user clicks on it. I believe there's some modern web magic involving HTTP headers that lets you protect against the second type of attack, and possibly also against the first
18:11:07 <b_jonas> type. what exactly is this and where can I read the details, especially from the perspective of what I have to do if I'm writing the HTTP server software at https://bank.example ?
18:11:16 <b_jonas> all of this can be complicated with client-side scripts, but both basic attacks are possible without scripting.
18:11:46 <b_jonas> after I understand this, I'll also want to figure out how the heck xmlhttprequest and websocket works, including the same security things.
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18:59:06 <b_jonas> also my new corrective glasses (same as the old one basically) are ready, I'll probably pick it up tomorrow
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19:16:10 <kmc> b_jonas: I think that is managed through https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Content-Security-Policy
19:16:50 <kmc> specifically https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Content-Security-Policy/frame-ancestors
19:17:01 <kmc> there's also an older, simpler mechanism https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/X-Frame-Options
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19:24:06 <zzo38> I think there is a better way that could be done, but as far as I know is not implemented. This involves user settings that can apply to iframes, restricting the CSS that can apply to iframes (except for printed documents), allowing the user to detach iframes, having the option to always display the URL of iframes, and allowing separate sessions for iframes.
19:26:02 <zzo38> (A similar thing is possible with forms, too; if the origin is different, it can avoid sending cookies, or warn the user first. The user may also wish to examine the form before sending it even if the origin is the same; this is usually already possible (using the web developer tools), although scripts in the document can mess this up.)
19:26:21 <b_jonas> kmc: thanks. isn't there something that controls when the cookies are sent?
19:31:09 <b_jonas> kmc: I don't understand this Content-Security-Policy. isn't this about a different type of attack, where the page wants to protect against user-submitted content that the server does not properly validat and so the HTML contains scripts that execute in the displaying page's context?
19:31:18 <b_jonas> that is important, but isn't the kind of attack I'm asking about
19:31:27 <b_jonas> but maybe I just don't understand what Content-Security-Policy does
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19:32:49 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe Content-Security-Policy concerns both, but frame-ancestor and https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Content-Security-Policy#navigation_directives are about the attacks I'm asking about
19:39:02 <kmc> yeah it may encompass mitigations against XSS too
19:39:25 <kmc> but that's mostly handled on the server side, with proper escaping/validation of user-supplied content
19:39:54 <kmc> as i understand it frame-ancestor lets the server tell the browser not to load the page it's currently serving up as an iframe of another site
19:40:05 <kmc> which prevents clickjacking attacks like you described
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19:49:56 <b_jonas> kmc: so what are you supposed to use against the first type of attack? a token in a hidden input in basically every POST form?
19:50:33 <b_jonas> I think the tokens are still used on big sites, so they might still be good practice
19:51:00 <b_jonas> but I expect there's something more to this than the iframe thing and the tokens, related directly to cookies
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19:55:22 <kmc> I mean you could tell your browser to block all cross-domain iframes and POSTs
19:55:27 <kmc> but it would also break a lot of legit use cases
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19:55:55 <kmc> there is a subtle line between allowing different sites to interact and share content versus allowing malicious behavior
19:56:46 <kmc> and then there are other use cases like advertising and tracking where the user might want to prevent collaboration between multiple sites that *do* want to collaborate
19:56:56 <kmc> and of course something like Content-Security-Policy does not address that
19:57:17 <kmc> I think that the CSRF token in forms is still a best practice, yes
19:57:57 <kmc> for example Django enables it by default
19:59:07 <kmc> all you have to do is put {% csrf_token %} somewhere inside your <form> tag in the HTML template
20:00:03 <kmc> and the CsrfViewMiddleware (which I believe is enabled by default) takes care of populating that tag with a hidden <input> containing a random value
20:00:15 <kmc> and also validating it on submit
20:00:43 <kmc> b_jonas: did you read _The Tangled Web_ by Michal Zalewski
20:00:57 <kmc> it's a pretty great tour of web security
20:01:04 <kmc> and all the disastrous things that browsers do
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20:02:04 <zzo38> This is why it should be a user setting. A better web browser must be written.
20:02:13 <kmc> something users can do (that I should probably do more) is run multiple browser sessions
20:10:19 <b_jonas> "<kmc> and then there are other use cases like advertising and tracking where the user might want to prevent collaboration between multiple sites that *do* want to collaborate" => I still don't understand why advertising usually works like that, with iframes and scripts from separate servers. Are the advertising servers targeting their ads to visitors so much that they aren't allowed to just send the ad
20:10:25 <b_jonas> to the embedding site which would transcribe it into the page? Or is there a performance problem, or a maintanance one? It's certainly convenient for me because it makes it much easier to block some ads, but still.
20:11:08 <b_jonas> and no, I haven't read The Tangled Web. is that a full book?
20:12:07 <kmc> and yes, it would be much slower if every rinkydink site running WordPress on a tiny shared hosting instance had to synchronously wait for DoubleClick or whomever to send them an ad, then splice it into the page and serve it to you. it would also be a lot more work for the site admin to set up versus just "paste this HTML into your site"
20:12:37 <b_jonas> "<kmc> something users can do (that I should probably do more) is run multiple browser sessions" => certainly, and for something as important as a banking app it might even be worth, as it helps mitigate security bugs in browsers that let the webpage scripts jailbreak and access data that they aren't supposed to. I don't claim to always do that with banking website, but still. but I can't do that for
20:12:43 <b_jonas> all websites, and you can submit forms in malicious ways in a lot of places, not just banking.
20:14:09 <zzo38> One feature I want is to be able to skip all finite animations, and to be able to load GIF and PNG animations as videos so that they can be paused, rewound, etc.
20:14:13 <b_jonas> "<kmc> and yes, it would be much slower if every rinkydink site running WordPress on a tiny shared hosting instance had to synchronously wait for DoubleClick or whomever to send them an ad, then splice it into the page and serve it to you." => or it could track your connection with cookies and otherwise, and send an ad only the *next* time the same connection loads the page, and send a non-personalized
20:14:30 <kmc> and i think that kind of setup would also make tracking harder. with ads in iframes, every time you get an ad from the same ad provider (or same browser origin to be more precise) they can set and use cookies
20:15:05 <b_jonas> tracking harder? why? the webpage can send information back to the ad server.
20:15:49 <b_jonas> so it's probably a combination of maintenance convenience, performance, and data protection
20:16:05 <b_jonas> and the winners are us blocking the ads
20:17:25 <kmc> it could but that is a lot to coordinate
20:17:44 <kmc> note that when something is described as "harder" that does not imply that it is impossible to do that thing
20:17:51 <kmc> merely that it is more difficult
20:19:18 <zzo38> Can iframes be disabled entirely (displaying only a simple hyperlink instead)? There are many other problems with iframes too, even when they are legitimate.
20:19:53 <kmc> also what if the site that's serving ads is a totally static site? in that case the iframe (or client side JS, which is also common for ads and analytics) is the only way to get dynamic, targetted ads
20:20:05 <APic> zzo38: I think lynx does this ☺
20:20:49 <b_jonas> sure, people do the more complicated things for (1) handling online payments, (2) third-party centralized login like OpenID, (3) third-party captchas like google's
20:21:14 <b_jonas> all those require complicated code on the server
20:21:27 <b_jonas> that you sometimes have to upgrade as the protocols change
20:23:15 <kmc> what i'm saying is that ads that come from an iframe or clientside JS are simpler from the perspective of the site admin than ads that come baked into the main page, even if they are more complicated in terms of the steps the browser itself takes to show the ad
20:24:18 <kmc> the website wants to serve ads and get paid with a minimum of hassle; the ad network wants their network to be the easiest to set up
20:25:58 <b_jonas> and it's a whole iframe, not just an image serve from the advertiser's website hyperlinked to a redirect on the advertiser's server
20:26:36 <b_jonas> because the advertiser wants to do stuff more complicated than he could do on just an image load, like client-side scripts fingerprinting your browser in case you don't accept cookies from the advertiser
20:27:05 <kmc> and ads themselves may have dynamic content
20:27:40 <kmc> maybe one day they'll start to put ads in the ads
20:28:53 <b_jonas> kmc: "dynamic content" like animation and sound? that still doesn't require a full iframe.
20:29:03 <b_jonas> it could be just a video instead of an img.
20:29:29 <b_jonas> no, I think it's definitely for the tracking with fingerprinting scripts
20:30:06 <b_jonas> there's a little dynamic content as a fig-leaf excuse for why they need all the scripts
20:30:49 <kmc> animation, sound, individual clickable links within the ad
20:30:53 <kmc> some ads are even mini playable games
20:31:15 <kmc> furthermore a single site may be able to serve image ads, video ads and interactive ads
20:31:36 <kmc> but yes fingerprinting and tracking is surely another reason
20:32:05 <b_jonas> plus I think browsers might block cookies that an image load tries to set, but they might allow cookies when an iframe tries to set it
20:32:22 <b_jonas> because there is a valid use for setting cookies from an iframe
20:33:14 <b_jonas> (centralized login that sets cookies for multiple domains, like on stackexchange or wikimedia sites)
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21:00:48 <b_jonas> I'm confused. some of the internet says that the rover landed savely on Mars, but https://xkcd.com/ says nothing of that sort. is there an authoritive source that I could look at to decide the contradiction?
21:01:18 <b_jonas> I'm tending to believe to xkcd, it's usually accurate about these things
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21:33:06 <zzo38> CBC also says the rover landed on Mars
22:15:28 <zzo38> I think that after I write the code to save changes to levels in the level editor in Free Hero Mesh, then it will be ready for other people to try Free Hero Mesh, although still it won't be complete by then, it is enough to try at first.
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23:14:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80802&oldid=75756 * Emerald * (+290) /* Second truth machine (but it won't work) */ new section
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00:14:55 <b_jonas> how much do you know about matroid theory, fungot?
00:14:55 <fungot> b_jonas: dammit t-rex, how many? frig, i'd be totaly pooched, man!
00:15:15 <b_jonas> fungot: how about linear program duality?
00:15:15 <fungot> b_jonas: so i've been down for like, two minutes, i die forever? i could do that i would like horses! fifty points!
00:23:16 <zzo38> Will fopencookie be added to standard C and/or POSIX in future?
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04:27:56 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80803&oldid=80010 * Digital Hunter * (-14) /* Quines */ shorter quine shrug
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07:09:57 <nakilon> https://github.com/xanxys/hs2bf
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10:22:12 <APic> Celebrate Chaoflux! Hail Eris!
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10:26:44 <wib_jonas> Let me re-read the xkcd what-if from 2003 because it's relevant to the Mars helicopter\: https://what-if.xkcd.com/30/
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11:45:47 <HackEso> Today is Setting Orange, the 50th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3187 \ Celebrate Chaoflux
11:46:52 <fizzie> I remember having to had explicitly install ddate on HackEso, because those buzzkills took it off from util-linux.
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13:58:23 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:04:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80804&oldid=65765 * Orby * (+161)
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21:22:37 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80805&oldid=65774 * Orby * (+1066)
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21:54:48 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80806&oldid=80805 * Orby * (-307)
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23:50:34 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80807&oldid=80806 * Orby * (-5010) Major rewrite
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23:56:39 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80808&oldid=80807 * Orby * (+91) /* Car */
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23:59:01 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80809&oldid=80808 * Orby * (-1) /* Factorial */ fixing typo
00:00:07 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80810&oldid=80809 * Orby * (+2) /* Length */
00:08:03 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80811&oldid=80810 * Orby * (+63) /* Miscellaneous operators */ Clarifying immediate values
00:16:23 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80812&oldid=80811 * Orby * (-2) Renumbering instructions
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01:47:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80813&oldid=80792 * Digital Hunter * (+1110) /* Example programs */ added a prime finder program
01:57:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SnowballSH * New user account
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02:34:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80814&oldid=80800 * SnowballSH * (+233) Add My Introduction
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02:35:24 <esowiki> [[User:SnowballSH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80815 * SnowballSH * (+109) Created page with "Hi, I am SnowballSH, the creator of the [https://github.com/SnowballSH/Gorilla Gorilla] Programming Language."
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07:44:59 <zzo38> Once Free Hero Mesh is ready for public testing, will anyone on here help with that? (It requires SQLite and SDL1 (I have not tested it with any of the SDL compatibility layers, but you can if you want to). Compiling it requires a C compiler with GNU extensions; if you wish to modify the instruction set or resource set, then Node.js is also required. Have I missed anything?)
07:47:33 <zzo38> You can also complain about the documentation if there are some mistakes in it, too.
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13:27:50 <nakilon> I've suspended another irc chatbot thing because could not reach enough high quality -- there is no enough good English NLP tool available
13:28:45 <nakilon> while there is a tool for Russian language that provides muuuuch more data and I've switched back to the "fake news" idea that would mimic local popular news website
13:30:22 <nakilon> instead of having only 10% fully grammatically correct sentences I have 90%
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13:32:21 <nakilon> among them the half is a rule about verbs and I'm going to fix it now and another half probably can't be fixed because it's the error by the NLP tool
13:34:40 <nakilon> I suppose there is no such good tool for English because English is harder to analyze -- it's all about the order of words and the "word" sometimes is a several words being apart across the sentence
13:35:04 <nakilon> while in Russian the meaning of the word does not depend on order much -- it's all about suffixes that morph it
13:39:45 <nakilon> s/among them/among the 10% of erroneous sentences
13:40:04 <fizzie> A alphabetic be joke order program radio should suggested that word.
13:40:10 <fizzie> Can guess intended meaning the usually you.
13:40:15 <fizzie> But funny it may or sound still unusual.
13:40:22 <fizzie> A and be because being course harder if it it longer make many may more much of of of out possibilities sense sentence so there to write you.
13:41:20 <int-e> fungot: meet fizzie, your replacement
13:41:20 <fungot> int-e: but that makes things worse than ever! everybody is going straight to the top, since who cares, we've been to a wedding except t-rex. you need to work on my life management"
13:41:46 <fizzie> int-e: A as choose compliment I take that to.
13:42:03 <nakilon> the goal of understanding the meaning and goal to make the sentence grammatically correct (but not necessary have a meaning) are different though
13:43:17 <fizzie> (It works better in Finnish than in English too, because of the same thing with different word forms being used to indicate things rather than pronouns and order.)
13:43:27 <fizzie> (It was a Finnish radio program, of course.)
13:43:38 <nakilon> to learn a computer to generate correct sentences I have to show it them
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13:44:34 <nakilon> there are another copypastas -- about shuffling the letters within the word but only human would understand that ..D
13:45:26 <fizzie> fungot: You could spend a little more effort in making your sentences grammatical too.
13:45:26 <fungot> fizzie: are you you're going trick-or-treating this year i have the perfect gift idea of the indian that was alien, stoic, exotic and dying. ask me if there will ever be a way to do that? a website link you emailed me
13:45:27 <nakilon> learn and teach are учить и научить in Russian that are pretty similar words -- that's the source of a common mistake
13:46:37 <fizzie> (Oppia & opettaa in Finnish, so definitely linked there too.)
13:50:21 <int-e> but yeah, those russian ones are close, just a prefix...
13:50:50 <fizzie> It's lära / lära ut (or alternatively, undervisa) in Swedish, I think.
13:51:01 <nakilon> fizzie it IBNIZ's author finnish too?
13:51:51 <fizzie> Was that the thing viznut did? If so, yes.
13:52:57 <nakilon> I guess these are his rabbit holes: http://danieltemkin.com/
13:53:44 <fizzie> My impression was, that's a separate person and blog, which just had an article about IBNIZ.
13:54:39 <int-e> I learned russian... but forgot almost all of it. I still know "Я не понимаю по-русский." :P
13:55:37 <nakilon> "по-русски" answers the "in what language?" question, not "what language?"
13:56:01 <int-e> never got the hang of the р.
13:56:15 <int-e> (the pronunciation)
13:56:34 <nakilon> "заячий язык" means "language of rabbits", "по-заячи" means "in language of rabbits"
13:56:57 <nakilon> по-fungot-ски means "in the language of fungot"
13:56:58 <fungot> nakilon: i... um, i just i don't!! imagine if my liver came from an axe murderer? mine would be the liver, fish, eggs, honey.
13:57:19 <fizzie> The eggs and honey of an axe murderer.
13:57:20 <int-e> I'm sure we were taught to add по- in those contexts... but never asked why :P
13:57:23 <nakilon> fungot that does not sound tasty
13:57:23 <fungot> nakilon: look, you're trying to lead well, but has not been dispelled!
13:57:41 <fizzie> "извините, это место..." something, is the only bit I remember for the single Russian course I did back in university. It was about asking if a seat is free or something.
13:58:19 <int-e> oh well, at least the letters stuck
13:58:20 <fizzie> I think the only practical use of that was that at least I kind of remember the alphabet, which can be useful for street signs sometimes.
13:59:49 <nakilon> I guess the "я не говорю по-русски" is something that everybody learns in the first place, like even the most uneducated Russian knows "do you speak English?", "sprehen die deutsch?", "parle franceus?"
13:59:51 <fizzie> There's an old and tired joke in Finland about someone going to Russia for a visit, and then after coming back being surprised about how incredibly popular this PECTOPAH restaurant chain is, they're *everywhere*.
14:00:22 <int-e> "Навальный" is something that has come up these days (people spraying the name in the snow to get it removed was the story)
14:00:50 <nakilon> fizzie yeah that question about the sitting place would certainly work )
14:01:37 <int-e> there are also some fun transcriptions of english words like онлайн, I enjoy those.
14:02:27 <fizzie> It's fun to listen to people speak languages you don't know at work, because maybe 25% of the words are just internal acronyms and code names.
14:02:33 <fizzie> Well, was back when offices were a thing, anyway.
14:02:48 <nakilon> also ПАРИКМАХЕРСКАЯ barber shop brand
14:04:52 <nakilon> int-e Навальный is a guy with a team located in England -- they are working on investigating how oligarchs steal the money and give him this data to read on camera so he can build antigovernment moods, targets mostly on 15-17 years olds
14:05:24 <int-e> oh is that the russian story?
14:05:52 <int-e> it's fun to see propaganda from both sides :P
14:06:00 <fizzie> Heh, РЕСТОРАН and PECTOPAH look all different in this terminal, because I'm sticking with a bitmap font which apparently doesn't do Cyrillic, so the former gets picked from a fallback font.
14:07:49 <nakilon> int-e yeah his electorate are those who enough dumb to believe that Russian secret services are poisoning with a thing that does not kill anyone, lol, only makes them feel bad for a week, and after the "poisoning" they let the guy to fly to Germany...
14:07:50 <int-e> oh, "вокзал" (train station) is another fun transcription: Vauxhall.
14:09:13 <fizzie> Heh, back when I was commuting I switched from train to tube daily at Vauxhall.
14:09:24 <nakilon> lol, I didn't know about вокзал
14:09:57 <int-e> nakilon: and upon his return, this nobody's flight got diverted and he was arrested by a police squadron... makes sense.
14:10:31 <int-e> it's a city, which had (one of?) the first train station(s)
14:10:54 <fizzie> Wiktionary claims the "vaux" part of the name is from Falkes de Breauté -> Faulke's Hall -> Foxhall -> Vauxhall.
14:11:15 <int-e> or... hmm.. rather a part of London
14:11:30 <nakilon> int-e he's going to jail because he's spent all these years to do anti-government propaganda that is just plain illegal; and this fact that he was backed by England is now publicly uncovered
14:11:43 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_railway_station
14:12:45 <nakilon> (ср.-англ. Faukeshale 1279, ср.-англ. Faukeshalle 1292, англ. Fauxhall ~1600, англ. Fox Hall 1665, англ. Vaux-Hall 1719
14:12:56 <int-e> nakilon: now what exactly is the difference between opposition and anti-government propaganda
14:13:16 <fizzie> In here it's also a car brand, so if you say Vauxhall to someone with no context, I think it's about 50-50 chance which they think of first.
14:13:33 <fizzie> Anything that's an Opel elsewhere is Vauxhall here.
14:14:17 <fizzie> "Vauxhall's vehicle lineup is identical to that of Opel, but the Vauxhall brand is exclusively used in the UK (including the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man)."
14:14:56 <nakilon> int-e he's not advocating some party/guys who know better how to rule -- he only ruins the things, fooling the youth; his goal isn't doing good, his goal is doing bad
14:16:54 <int-e> I'm honestly not sure what his goals are, nor what kind of international support he has (in particular in areas that really matter--intelligence and money).
14:17:50 <nakilon> they said it on camera: out team is in England, we investigate from there, Navalny only talks
14:17:57 <int-e> But I do believe that the KGB tried to poison him... while trying to make it look like a natural death. It is surprisingly inept though.
14:18:45 <nakilon> there is no KGB, it was in USSR
14:19:13 <nakilon> and you think it's so dumb they use the poison that never kills, only makes sick for a week? like those father and daughter and now this one
14:19:23 <int-e> well, it does kill
14:19:44 <nakilon> and what a coincidence -- those two were in England too
14:20:08 <nakilon> if they wanted to kill they would just shoot
14:20:20 <nakilon> or prison, like they are doing right now
14:20:41 <int-e> nah... falling out of windows is the russian way :P
14:21:14 <int-e> (most recentlt... that doctor who first treated Navalny)
14:22:10 <nakilon> if the world already believes it's Novichok
14:22:20 <nakilon> lol, another logic absence
14:22:26 <nakilon> "they are bad because they are bad"
14:22:35 <nakilon> "they are doing thing randomly just because they are bad"
14:22:46 <nakilon> stupid russophobic propaganda
14:23:18 <nakilon> every person that dies in Russia is killed by Putin, aha
14:23:22 <int-e> I don't know why accidents happen to people connected to this poisoning episode :P
14:23:46 <nakilon> accidents happen to everyone, that's why they are accidents
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14:25:36 <nakilon> internal anti-government propaganda is what US uses to limit Russia's possible actions to protect itself
14:26:19 <nakilon> you make a million of youngsters to yell everywhere that Navalny is a hero and they can't arrest him because people in the world believe those youngsters
14:26:43 <nakilon> finally they've got those guys uncover themselves about being the team from England
14:27:40 <nakilon> another example is the nazi revolution and the following civil war in Ukraine -- by making foreigners believe the bullshit about "Russian military intervention" they made Russia unable to help their brothers to fight the nazis
14:28:00 <nakilon> ]there is no war with Russia, it's not declared -- did you know that? nope, you aren't even told
14:29:12 <int-e> The central aspect of all of this is to keep things ambiguous... there's a documentary about this, "Hypernormalization" by Adam Curtis... not anti-russian, since the techniques are being employed all around the world now
14:29:48 <nakilon> so Russia is unable to move a peacemaking militaries in because the Ukrainian nazi government is standing against that and moving against their will be let them finally declare a war after 7 years already -- that's what the west is waiting for
14:30:50 <int-e> Oh, there is no war *with* Russia... there's a military conflict in the Ukraine. And there's lots of hot talk around the Crimea situation.
14:31:27 <int-e> (the difference is what you said... a war would have to be declared)
14:31:44 <nakilon> building of nazi forces, battalions, teaching young people to throw a hand like Hitler did and keeping his portraits in their homes is a trend that Ukrainian government started doing intensively since 2004 but no one thought it will become a real danger so no one was informing other countries outside about that
14:32:18 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80816&oldid=80812 * Orby * (+571) More major revisioons
14:32:56 <nakilon> that's how it became possible that people with Hitler, Bandera and Shuhevich collaborationists portraits were yelling "kill Russians" and started burning the center of Kiev down in 2014 and no one outside understood what's going on just because the world wasn't informed
14:33:13 <nakilon> that made possible to spread the fakes about Russian intervention
14:35:03 <nakilon> int-e, while you say there is no "war with Russia", they are making these articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War
14:35:25 <int-e> the really great thing about propaganda is that most of the time, you don't have to lie... you only have to select the right events and facts to report...
14:36:14 <int-e> and no, I don't feel I have any sort of objective truth about the Ukraine or any other conflicted region for that matter
14:36:22 <nakilon> I would give you dozens of articles about Ukrainian nazi movements and real active battaliions with swastikas and shit but such information can't spread because everything is censoring it by keywords, youtube is banning videos, hides, etc.
14:37:27 <nakilon> "you only have to select the right events" -- yes, select the facts of self-defense and declare it an aggression
14:37:46 <int-e> and I was serious about it being interesting to hear some of the other side's propaganda... if we think of this as a conflict between Russia and the western countries.
14:38:30 <nakilon> like when Ukraine declared the Donbass people a terrorists providing no terracts evidence and started using aviation and artillery to randomly bomb civilians doing the real terrorism but called it "an antiterroristic operation"
14:39:10 <int-e> they learned from the greatest... the USA :P
14:39:17 <nakilon> in result killed 9000 civilians, and only 3000 militaries died, mostly on Ukrainian side, and mostly by a suicide or killed by own squad
14:40:19 <nakilon> just check the facts and chronology, it's all open
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14:41:16 <nakilon> I'm telling you because I'm Ukrainian, I grew in this nationalistic propaganda, and I've visited Maidan in December 2013 to see with my own eyes
14:41:34 <nakilon> and my grandparents are from Donbass
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14:42:25 <nakilon> unlike the foreign mass media "trending news" consumer I was seeing how it was growing and I was following how it went in 2014
14:45:37 <nakilon> there is a ton of materials to show those nazis -- their current names, faces, not only leaders but even ordinary mercenaries, mercenaries from Europe countries, such as, for example, even from Germany, the guy is in Ukraine for money and "to shoot Russians", spending time in chatroulette in the evening
14:46:15 <nakilon> I don't want people here to be overwhelmed, we are taught to close the ears and eyes and not think about existence of such things as nazism, fascism, especially when they are real
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14:47:33 <nakilon> what stops the world from knowing the truth? the fact that the most popular resouces are the most censored
14:51:07 <nakilon> I'll try to end my talk by linking my own comment that has more links in it, though it ends with "etc. etc. etc." anyway because I know people don't give a fuck: https://www.reddit.com/r/subredditcancer/comments/kgxyw0/guy_gets_banned_for_being_offended_by_bible/ggl3shg/?context=3
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15:13:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: re PECTOPAH restaurant chain, the way we told that after visiting Austria that it's full of towns named Ausfahrt, the freeway has signs that lead there everywhere
15:14:31 <b_jonas> I guess if someone drove on the freeway in Hungary before 2021, they would make that joke about Pihenőhely
15:17:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, exaxtly, a Vauxhall is just an Opel with the steering wheel on the right hand side of the car
15:18:49 <HackEso> query? No such file or directory
15:19:15 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80817&oldid=80816 * Orby * (-233) Small edits
15:19:45 <b_jonas> "<int-e> nah... falling out of windows is the russian way :P" =>
15:19:49 <HackEso> Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials.
15:25:37 <b_jonas> although I have been wondering what other traditional execution methods there are that are associated with some group, like defenestration, and guillotine beheadings with the french revolution
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15:52:38 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80818&oldid=80817 * Orby * (+541) Added pneumonics
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16:09:04 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80819&oldid=80818 * Orby * (+299) Elaborating on ternary operator
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16:16:51 <fizzie> Firing squads aren't probably associated with any particularly specific group, but they do have a military feel to me.
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16:56:23 <esowiki> [[User:Mdilella]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80820&oldid=80783 * Mdilella * (-4)
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17:00:22 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80821&oldid=80819 * Orby * (+507) Adding example
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17:17:06 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80822&oldid=80821 * Orby * (-214) /* Binary operators */ Updating for overloaded scalar multiplication.
17:19:46 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80823&oldid=80822 * Orby * (-190) /* and pattern */ Updating with shorter code
17:21:23 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80824&oldid=80823 * Orby * (+68) /* Memory operators */ Updating for more efficient stores
17:28:57 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80825&oldid=80824 * Orby * (+117) Updating opcodes
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17:48:43 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80826&oldid=80825 * Orby * (-96) Adding rotate command
17:57:56 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80827&oldid=80826 * Orby * (+184) Adding alternate pneumonics
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18:15:15 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80828&oldid=80827 * Orby * (+8) /* AND pattern */ clarifying
18:17:30 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80829&oldid=80828 * Orby * (-6) Fixing errors in docuumentation
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18:19:37 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80830&oldid=80829 * Orby * (+67) /* Miscellaneous operators */ Expanding rot command to act on vectors
18:20:58 <kritixilithos> so i've gone back to looking at the lambda cube again. i'm trying to understand wikipedia's example of a type that depends on types (see under system f⍵_) tree=\A:*.PB.(A→B)→(B→B→B)→B, so this means that `tree nat` = PB.(N→B)→(B→B→B)→B. so an element of tree nat would look like \B:*.\_:(N→B).\_:(B→B→B).<something of type B>, but how would this (the `< ... >`) actually
18:21:00 <kritixilithos> look like? how would, say, (leaf 2:tree int) be represented?
18:21:27 <kritixilithos> or is this going to be some church encoding black magic-esque?
18:22:26 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80831&oldid=80830 * Orby * (+118) /* Examples */ Stack reversal
18:23:29 <kritixilithos> maybe you need some extension to the bare-bones definition presented at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube ?
18:23:30 <int-e> \B:*.\leaf:(N→B).\node:(B→B→B).node (leaf 1) (leaf 2)
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18:23:59 <int-e> this is just church encoding
18:24:32 <kritixilithos> ah right that makes sense, i forgot about the (N→B) and (B→B→B)
18:26:27 <esowiki> [[Cannoli]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80832 * Zero player rodent * (+3233) Created page with "'''Cannoli''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] that was created by [[User:Zero player rodent]]. The [[instruction pointer]] in '''Cannoli''' moves to different instruct..."
18:27:09 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80833&oldid=80404 * Zero player rodent * (+12) /* Esolangs I have created/implemented */
18:30:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80834&oldid=80711 * Zero player rodent * (+14)
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19:40:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80835&oldid=80647 * Zero player rodent * (+49)
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20:27:59 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80836&oldid=80831 * Orby * (+26) Updating opcodes. Swapping out min and max for call and return opcodes.
20:46:42 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80837&oldid=80836 * Orby * (+0) /* Ternary operator */ Fixing opcode typo
20:54:08 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80838&oldid=80837 * Orby * (+131) Reformatting article
21:03:46 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80839&oldid=80838 * Orby * (+81) /* Miscellaneous operators */ Adding NOP
21:04:01 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80840&oldid=80839 * Orby * (+2) /* Miscellaneous operators */ Fixing formatting
21:19:26 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80841&oldid=80840 * Orby * (+5) /* Miscellaneous operators */
21:26:03 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80842&oldid=80841 * Orby * (-82) Changing count, inc, and dec commands to behave the same on logicals and numericals. This shrinks the example code by a few instructions.
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21:26:29 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80843&oldid=80842 * Orby * (+0) /* Count */ Fixing typo
21:30:33 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80844&oldid=80843 * Orby * (-1) /* AND pattern */ Shrinking example
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21:47:24 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80845&oldid=80844 * Orby * (+423) /* Examples */
22:11:24 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80846&oldid=77897 * Orby * (+70) /* Ideas in progress */
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22:29:08 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80847 * Orby * (+338) Jotting down some ideas
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23:57:18 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80848&oldid=80847 * Orby * (+248) /* Classes */
23:59:02 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80849&oldid=80848 * Orby * (+8) /* Abstract */
00:00:35 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80850&oldid=80849 * Orby * (+36) /* Thoughts */
00:01:30 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80851&oldid=80850 * Orby * (-25) /* Abstract */
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01:15:04 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80852&oldid=80851 * Orby * (+46) /* Thoughts */
01:16:44 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80853&oldid=80852 * Orby * (+6) /* Abstract */
01:24:51 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80854&oldid=80853 * Orby * (+2) /* Classes */
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03:48:08 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80855&oldid=80854 * Orby * (+169)
03:52:11 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80856&oldid=80855 * Orby * (+64)
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04:18:08 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80857&oldid=80856 * Orby * (+618)
04:18:28 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80858&oldid=80857 * Orby * (+8) /* Config file */
04:18:45 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80859&oldid=80858 * Orby * (+2) /* Config file */
04:20:52 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80860&oldid=80859 * Orby * (+14) /* Config file */
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13:04:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NikitaMalakhov * New user account
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14:23:39 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80861&oldid=80860 * Orby * (+20) /* Classes */
14:24:13 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80862&oldid=80861 * Orby * (+16) /* Config file */
14:25:17 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80863&oldid=80862 * Orby * (-16) /* Config file */
14:28:08 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80864&oldid=80863 * Orby * (+47) /* Abstract */
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14:41:17 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80865&oldid=80864 * Orby * (+21) /* Abstract */
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14:56:50 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80866&oldid=80865 * Orby * (+685) /* Classes */
14:57:31 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80867&oldid=80866 * Orby * (+0) /* Library Interface */
14:59:15 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80868&oldid=80867 * Orby * (-1) /* Library Interface */
14:59:53 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80869&oldid=80868 * Orby * (-18) /* Abstract */
15:01:17 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80870&oldid=80869 * Orby * (-14) /* Abstract */
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15:05:42 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80871&oldid=80870 * Orby * (+64) /* Classes */
15:15:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80872&oldid=80814 * NikitaMalakhov * (+156)
15:16:13 <esowiki> [[Boxly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80873 * NikitaMalakhov * (+2557) Created page with "=='''Introduction''' == Boxly is a language that is based on boxes and macs (Macrooperators) =='''Elements'''== '''Boxes''' Boxes contain 3 values: Box name:type, values Types..."
15:17:20 <esowiki> [[Boxly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80874&oldid=80873 * NikitaMalakhov * (-2557) Blanked the page
15:19:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80875&oldid=80872 * NikitaMalakhov * (+40)
15:20:37 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80876&oldid=80871 * Orby * (+382) /* Library Interface */
15:33:38 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80877&oldid=80876 * Orby * (-20)
15:51:20 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80878&oldid=80877 * Orby * (+28) /* Abstract */
15:56:33 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80879&oldid=80878 * Orby * (+269) /* Abstract */
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16:45:26 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80880&oldid=80879 * Orby * (+47) /* Abstract */
16:46:39 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80881&oldid=80880 * Orby * (+4) /* Library Interface */
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17:25:27 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80882&oldid=80881 * Orby * (+87)
17:44:35 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80883&oldid=80882 * Orby * (+41) /* Concrete */
17:44:57 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80884&oldid=80883 * Orby * (+6) /* Concrete */
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17:50:03 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80885&oldid=80884 * Orby * (-47)
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18:31:30 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80886&oldid=80885 * Orby * (+130) /* Classes */
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18:32:51 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80887&oldid=80886 * Orby * (-86) /* Abstract */
18:39:58 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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19:38:56 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80888&oldid=80887 * Orby * (+14) /* Concrete */
20:15:51 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80889&oldid=75686 * Emerald * (-337) i finnaly am back
20:16:43 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80890&oldid=80889 * Emerald * (-173) find this not useful
20:31:56 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80891&oldid=78074 * Emerald * (+123) snowboy
20:52:31 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80892&oldid=80888 * Orby * (+61) /* Concrete */
21:25:43 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80893&oldid=80892 * Orby * (+437) /* Abstract */
21:29:33 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80894&oldid=80893 * Orby * (+181) /* Abstract */
21:31:03 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80895&oldid=80894 * Orby * (-36) /* Abstract */
21:38:51 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80896&oldid=80895 * Orby * (+144)
21:39:05 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80897&oldid=80896 * Orby * (+2) /* main.cpp */
21:52:34 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80898&oldid=80897 * Orby * (+147) /* main.cpp */
21:53:53 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80899&oldid=80898 * Orby * (+178) /* Abstract */
21:59:19 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80900&oldid=80899 * Orby * (+34) /* Concrete */
22:00:08 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80901&oldid=80632 * Not applicable * (+331) add stupidc (BE6502) and stupidc (interpreted)
22:01:05 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80902&oldid=80901 * Not applicable * (-6) /* BE6502 */ gedit lied to me
22:01:17 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80903&oldid=80900 * Orby * (+17) /* Abstract */
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22:44:38 <grhs> On the esolang wiki, how can I list pages in the intersection of two categories?
22:47:24 <zzo38> As far as I know MediaWiki does not have such a command.
22:49:34 <grhs> Seems like a useful feature.
22:53:54 <zzo38> You might also be able to use the MediaWiki API. If there is a SQLite extension to access MediaWiki API using virtual tables (something I wanted before, but as far as I know they don't have it), then it is easily enough to do by the use of SQL queries.
22:54:05 <zzo38> (You can also use it without SQL queries.)
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23:03:11 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think it's a thing. I don't even know if it's easily doable via the API. You could definitely dig it out from the data dump though.
23:08:46 <fizzie> If we had the more advanced search extension (CirrusSearch) installed, you could use two of the `incategory:` filters to do it, but that needs an Elasticsearch installation and seems like far too much work.
23:24:15 <zzo38> It is probably not doable directly with the API, although it would allow you do make the individual queries. (The SQLite virtual table mechanism would be able to automatically combine the two separate queries, probably.)
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04:23:23 <dcristofani> So I'm working on Game of Life in brainfuck. Now in the usual prolonged "revising for concision" stage.
04:25:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Im-a-user * New user account
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12:28:50 <esowiki> [[Malbolge Unshackled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80904&oldid=64730 * Palaiologos * (+62)
12:38:40 <nakilon> I needed exactly this few months ago -- search for pages in two categories
12:39:17 <nakilon> ended up with successfully finding an API library, reading all items and just intersecting them on my side
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13:43:56 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80905&oldid=80653 * Obvious * (-40) /* Other functions */
13:47:35 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80906&oldid=80905 * Obvious * (-53) /* Predefined functions */
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14:13:37 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80907&oldid=80903 * Orby * (+7) /* Concrete */
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14:19:41 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80908&oldid=80907 * Orby * (+7) /* Concrete */
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14:31:52 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80909&oldid=80908 * Orby * (+7) /* Concrete */
14:34:18 <b_jonas> grhs: there's an external tool for this, but I don't think we have any instance running for the esowiki (the tool works from dumps), and it's not too reliable anyways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PetScan
14:42:46 <b_jonas> fungot: of the virtues represented by the three Triforces, which one are you the most lacking in?
14:42:46 <fungot> b_jonas: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? for instance, i've recently picked up a hobby, and it's been super great! i signed up for an english as a second language course.
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14:53:39 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80910&oldid=80909 * Orby * (+35) /* Concrete */
15:16:38 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80911&oldid=80910 * Orby * (+7) /* Concrete */
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16:09:06 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80912&oldid=80911 * Orby * (+40)
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17:33:56 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80913&oldid=80912 * Orby * (+77)
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17:39:00 <fizzie> fungot: What about when it coems to the Eight Virtues of the Avatar?
17:39:00 <fungot> fizzie: so! i intend to do today! we can't hang up the phone to talk to a t-rex... nostalgia. it's a new feeling for a new song repeatedly over each 3-month period, and you're not allowed to be bid in my auction, and i'm not a man to like you
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18:22:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:23:14 <nakilon> fungot what's your first language?
18:23:14 <fungot> nakilon: and that is good, but now each of them has met their maker.
18:23:27 <fungot> nakilon: but t-rex, you can't play the game optimally! and assuming that in a man... or a woman, dromiceiomimus? we've just totally shredded the envelope it came, i'd have to throw away a good chunk of it for the days i've already lived.
18:23:47 * nakilon changed name to dromiceiomimus
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18:52:43 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
18:52:47 <fungot> fizzie: on a tuesday night r u in?
18:53:16 <fizzie> fungot: yah what r w doin? (Also I don't know how to SMS-speak.)
18:53:16 <fungot> fizzie: of course... at bugis. u lookfor place settledthen u let me know.
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19:45:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Zero player rodent * moved [[Cannoli]] to [[Struffoli]]: There was already a programming language called "Cannoli"
19:47:39 <esowiki> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80916&oldid=80914 * Zero player rodent * (+10)
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20:00:39 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80917&oldid=80835 * Zero player rodent * (+2) /* Cannoli */
20:01:05 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80918&oldid=80917 * Zero player rodent * (-51)
20:02:34 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80919&oldid=80918 * Zero player rodent * (+52)
20:16:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Smahilia * New user account
20:20:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80920&oldid=80875 * Smahilia * (+77) /* Introductions */
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20:26:55 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80921&oldid=80786 * Smahilia * (+41) /* General languages */
20:36:39 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80922 * Smahilia * (+1576) /* Overview */
20:46:01 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80923&oldid=80922 * Smahilia * (+0)
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21:10:36 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80924&oldid=80923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) Cats
21:13:17 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80925&oldid=80924 * Smahilia * (+44) /* Overview */
21:23:15 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80926&oldid=80890 * Emerald * (+455) updated for once
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21:35:46 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80927&oldid=80891 * Emerald * (+51)
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21:40:19 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80928&oldid=80925 * Smahilia * (+2) /* Overview */
21:42:27 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80929&oldid=80928 * Smahilia * (+77) /* Overview */
21:42:47 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80930&oldid=80929 * Smahilia * (+1) /* Overview */
21:47:34 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80931&oldid=80930 * Smahilia * (-21) /* Overview */
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22:21:44 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80932&oldid=80931 * Smahilia * (+61) /* Overview */
22:23:39 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80933&oldid=80932 * Smahilia * (+2) /* Overview */
22:30:07 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80934&oldid=80933 * Smahilia * (+46) /* Overview */
22:30:49 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80935&oldid=80934 * Smahilia * (+16) /* Overview */
22:41:21 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80936&oldid=80935 * Smahilia * (+61) /* Overview */
22:42:29 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80937&oldid=80936 * Smahilia * (-3)
22:42:54 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80938&oldid=80937 * Smahilia * (-5)
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05:43:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SketchySketch * New user account
05:50:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80939&oldid=80920 * SketchySketch * (+208) /* Introductions */
05:52:38 <zzo38> I wrote sokoban code for Free Hero Mesh almost three years ago; today I tested it and it is working OK. (However, this might not be true of the other one.)
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14:32:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80940&oldid=80834 * Zero player rodent * (+16)
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21:37:46 <JL_y21> Hi there! Hope you are all well, and I’m really excited to join the community and be able to talk to all of you. I’m a college senior majoring in Computer Science and Mathematics, and I’m in the process of writing my thesis, which I’m doing on esoteric languages (specifically in conjunction with automata theory, which I took last semester).
21:37:46 <JL_y21> My plan is to create several esoteric languages (as well as compilers for them) and then explore their computing power from a mathematical/automata theory standpoint. I’d love any insight or advice you guys might have on the project, so let me know if you have any to offer! -J
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21:54:24 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80941&oldid=80913 * Orby * (+162)
21:55:32 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80942&oldid=80941 * Orby * (+83) /* RAM */
21:56:12 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80943&oldid=80942 * Orby * (+0) /* RAM */
21:57:10 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80944&oldid=80943 * Orby * (+5) /* RAM */
21:57:27 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80945&oldid=80944 * Orby * (+1) /* RAM */
21:59:42 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80946&oldid=80945 * Orby * (+16) /* RAM */
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22:31:43 <l0deHl> /!\ this chat has moved to irc.crimeircd.net #pp /!\
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22:42:54 <int-e> I've never understood the point of those
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22:43:51 <buriedalive> FEipuM8Aio1laV6sFOXgc8Ess7wlf0b9yLApezjQQAJPXDoaCQGVU01wBeeL3U777spECDqQIgP4tbr5ELnXAy5r7UNtKd96biHrZu7wqdiabjHHtC8amyg8
22:43:54 <buriedalive> SfIxdBC7U3EUAxDiTtnvOUmhBcFhz913FJhrCO0l4QGylMUxGqhFTLZN2m1XfhTaPk4gf3ciyvaGXhHqCcT7FN21jnhab3HfsS5hbfVBTsi3L4v0JhyEbnqt
22:43:58 <buriedalive> a6Z8AepNxWCeiVQzRkXa2JWyDKT8eq1HmvhNhb3ni9OIB8uqtjBSsuBL04HxxR6bKzgkTJlojSnFROeI0aBl8qkHxmQvrKzDtfNYJobm4snqgosJb6UVZGeg
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22:44:23 <fizzie> Well, that's even less reasonable, isn't it?
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23:16:53 <zzo38> JL_y21: I would like to see once you have written about it.
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01:35:51 <esowiki> [[I don't care about esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80947&oldid=80082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
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01:37:29 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80948&oldid=80946 * Orby * (+296) /* TODO */
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02:45:31 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80949&oldid=80833 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
02:54:15 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80950&oldid=80813 * Digital Hunter * (+1911) /* Factorial */
02:56:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80951&oldid=80950 * Digital Hunter * (+13) /* Factorial */
02:59:36 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80952&oldid=80951 * Digital Hunter * (+197) /* Factorial */
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06:50:40 <esowiki> [[HAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80953&oldid=78874 * Aryantech123 * (+9)
07:02:10 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80954&oldid=80768 * Quintopia * (+791) Befunge In Befunge
07:02:33 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80955&oldid=80954 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Befunge-93 Self-Interpreter */
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13:32:38 <nakilon> 01:43:58 <buriedalive> a6Z8AepNxWCeiVQzRkXa2JWyDKT8eq1HmvhNhb3ni9OIB8uqtjBSsuBL04HxxR6bKzgkTJlojSnFROeI0aBl8qkHxmQvrKzDtfNYJobm4snqgosJb6UVZGeg
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14:03:55 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80956&oldid=80955 * Quintopia * (-247) other one was slightly broken. this one works and better.
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15:48:00 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80957&oldid=80952 * Digital Hunter * (-29) /* Commands and keywords */ this is like, a MAJOR edit, but I think it's in the best interest of the language and I've updated my interpreter to match
15:48:57 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80958&oldid=80957 * Digital Hunter * (+5) /* 99 bottles of beer */ updated to change in bar command
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20:17:45 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80959&oldid=80938 * Smahilia * (+86) /* Overview */
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20:25:15 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80960&oldid=80959 * Smahilia * (+2) /* Overview */
20:27:01 <esowiki> [[Bonar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80961&oldid=80960 * Smahilia * (+4) /* Hello World */
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21:51:39 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80962&oldid=80956 * Quintopia * (+343) provide means to give input to interpreted program
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22:28:53 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80963&oldid=80962 * Quintopia * (+0) small bugfix
22:31:34 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80964&oldid=80963 * Quintopia * (+0) microscopic bugfix
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23:09:43 <esowiki> [[PhD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80965 * Hakerh400 * (+1412) +[[PhD]]
23:09:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80966&oldid=80940 * Hakerh400 * (+10) +[[PhD]]
23:10:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80967&oldid=80719 * Hakerh400 * (+10) +[[PhD]]
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23:50:03 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80968&oldid=80948 * Orby * (+228) /* TODO */
23:52:34 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80969&oldid=80968 * Orby * (+107) /* TODO */
23:54:28 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80970&oldid=80845 * Orby * (-38) /* Call */
23:54:50 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80971&oldid=80970 * Orby * (+5) /* Call */
23:58:38 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80972&oldid=80969 * Orby * (+45) /* TODO */
00:01:14 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80973&oldid=80972 * Orby * (+53) /* RAM */
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01:40:38 <esowiki> [[PhD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80974&oldid=80965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+156) /* Examples */
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06:51:38 <kritixilithos> https://github.com/polux/lambda-diagrams lambda calculus animations using tromp's graphical notation
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07:45:08 <b_jonas> aww, that doesn't have any multicolored alligators
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08:38:33 <zzo38> I invented a solitaire card game called "solter solitaire". Ten ranks, four cards of each rank; suits are irrelevant. Deal ten to each of four tableaus. Tableau can build up or down (no wrapping), one card at a time; empty slots may not be filled. The single foundation builds up, starting with any card, wrapping. The single free pile holds up to four cards (but no rank restrictions); only the top card may be played, and only to the foun
08:40:02 <Taneb> Can I build a tableau like 4 -> 5 -> 4?
08:41:36 <shachaf> Did you step any more Steves?
08:41:42 <Taneb> Not lately I'm afraid
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10:19:53 <esowiki> [[Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80975&oldid=79077 * B jonas * (+159) /* External resources */
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12:06:01 <esowiki> [[PhD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80976&oldid=80974 * Hakerh400 * (+201)
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12:31:27 <esowiki> [[PhD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80977&oldid=80976 * Hakerh400 * (+192)
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13:18:41 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80978&oldid=80971 * Orby * (-268)
13:19:49 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80979&oldid=80978 * Orby * (-4) /* Miscellaneous operators */
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13:37:14 <Guest85410> Hi I have a file containing lots of lines looking like this, #][$^{!))}!!@%@$(^^[*%%&^]!#$}&*[#]{^!(!]}$((__}$$_{#@_[#[^{!+}#*$*}]]{(^))@^(#). The file is called GEMS, could this be an esolang or something like that?
13:38:54 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80980&oldid=80979 * Orby * (+37) /* Call */
13:41:29 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80981&oldid=80980 * Orby * (-41) /* Miscellaneous operators */ Adding 16-bit immediate push and removing nop
13:44:13 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80982&oldid=80981 * Orby * (+20) /* Introduction */ Updating reserved codes
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13:45:35 <Guest85410> Hi I have a file containing lots of lines looking like this, #][$^{!))}!!@%@$(^^[*%%&^]!#$}&*[#]{^!(!]}$((__}$$_{#@_[#[^{!+}#*$*}]]{(^))@^(#). The file is called GEMS, could this be an esolang or something like that?
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14:00:12 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80983&oldid=80982 * Orby * (+47) Rewording introduction. Zahlen has become a processor specification.
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14:01:37 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80984&oldid=80846 * Orby * (+16) Updating tagline for Zahlen
14:03:12 <Programm> Ha, I have this "code" could it be an esolang?
14:03:16 <Programm> #][$^{!))}!!@%@$(^^[*%%&^]!#$}&*[#]{^!(!]}$((__}$$_{#@_[#[^{!+}#*$*}]]{(^))@^(#)
14:03:17 <Programm> &%@^(}@@#@%!(+{@&*$!]%@)_%_%!))${}_@[@_*!+&#{^@%]+({%*+&}__!)^@%{()}(]+(@^%)^%{_
14:03:17 <Programm> &{}+^[(*(+&)+&[#@$[*^)*{!$#[]@(&*&*^@{^]&&)#$&@%&&[#(+&!&_)^]*@]&{+&&%(})@%_*{]}
14:03:18 <Programm> %*[[@__]}****&+)_)+(_*#(*!!)[^](*#]({#^*$_][%]}&)#@)#&^!+#^(^_&$%#%#^}])@%]{(&*!
14:03:18 <Programm> @$%&#{!)_%}@%@!!#[^#}}}+_$]&(^*{*^&+]($]+)@{^%{){%$}##!&^(^}_[%@+]_)#}!}(&#%+({$
14:03:19 <Programm> !]*]{!%!*%)#${#%!_@!+[$@[{{{{#^#&+#]!_@_*^${$@{(!])[_)%%+%[(%&^^}(})@]^+)_)#_)+[
14:03:19 <Programm> $%}$@*^_{%#^[}!_{@]!^!$]}{!)[%)}*!&]%*!(!$(!_%+}!^&}(!_#!$&]$(!%*}#@(@]%(&]$[&+!
14:03:20 <Programm> *_()&_^$}%){#+)&(@{]}[%){%(!%+!^{{&%)]**!{*&#!#_@[}%+[]}*)&&[*+([_{@)*&_%))**#@&
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14:12:02 <fizzie> I don't think it's an unreasonable question, the channel collectively has seen a lot of languages.
14:12:42 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder how good a language detector you could train just by taking the wiki as input. Probably not very good; there isn't that much code in the examples.
14:13:52 <int-e> looks more like random data though... some weird hexadecimal encoding with !#$%&()*+@[]^_{} as digits
14:14:11 <fizzie> Granted, more context on the file (where did it came from and so on) is probably a better way of trying to figure out what's up with that.
14:14:33 <fizzie> A jokested would say "looks like Perl to me".
14:15:29 <int-e> what I mean though is that these frequencies are far too evenn: [(30,'+'),(30,'['),(31,'$'),(37,'}'),(38,'_'),(39,']'),(41,'#'),(41,'('),(41,'^'),(42,'*'),(42,'@'),(42,'{'),(44,')'),(46,'&'),(47,'!'),(49,'%')]
14:16:01 <fizzie> Yeah. And exactly 16 symbols, too.
14:16:41 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:17:41 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80985&oldid=80973 * Orby * (+442)
14:18:13 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80986&oldid=80985 * Orby * (-248) /* TODO */
14:20:36 <wib_jonas> fizzie: perl is what I thought of at first, because perl folks sometimes write obfuscated programs with a restricted inventory of characters, often punctuation only or alphabetic and space only (I tried the latter a few times), and the character inventory looks suitable, but on more detailed examination, this doesn't look like it's from such a
14:20:37 <wib_jonas> code, unless it's mostly or only the data portion without the decoder for it
14:22:21 <fizzie> JS people do that too.
14:22:32 <fizzie> But mismatched (){}[] generally rules that sort of thing out.
14:22:52 <wib_jonas> mismatched isn't really a problem, because this is probably just part of a longer thing
14:23:08 <wib_jonas> oh, you mean a mismatched mix like ([)] ?
14:23:21 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think you can have (!] as a subsequence.
14:23:46 <fizzie> "subsequence" wasn't the right word there, I think, but anyway, that's what I meant.
14:24:40 <fizzie> A subsequence is that thing where the elements you pick don't have to be consecutive. But I didn't want to say "substring" either, because that sounds it's about characters rather than tokens.
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14:26:14 <int-e> fizzie: and "contiguous subsequence" is a mouthful
14:26:40 * int-e usually goes for "substring" while cringing slightly
14:30:05 <wib_jonas> you can also call it a take of a drop, it's easier to say than contiguious subsequence
14:30:15 <int-e> it could be an equen, or maybe a trin ;)
14:30:17 <fizzie> Heh, is a "bugfix" also one kind of an affix?
14:30:59 <fizzie> Maybe that's what it's called when you use a prefix as a postfix or something.
14:31:41 <fizzie> "That's totally crediblein! Oops, I made a bugfix."
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14:46:04 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80987&oldid=80986 * Orby * (+7) /* ZahlenCore */
14:58:02 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80988&oldid=80987 * Orby * (+7) /* ZahlenCore */
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16:51:58 <HackEso> The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there.
16:52:36 <arseniiv> `addquote <fizzie> Heh, is a "bugfix" also one kind of an affix? <fizzie> Maybe that's what it's called when you use a prefix as a postfix or something. <fizzie> "That's totally crediblein! Oops, I made a bugfix."
16:52:40 <HackEso> 1332) <fizzie> Heh, is a "bugfix" also one kind of an affix? <fizzie> Maybe that's what it's called when you use a prefix as a postfix or something. <fizzie> "That's totally crediblein! Oops, I made a bugfix."
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16:53:06 <arseniiv> where did it say about double spaces to encode newlines? I remember it did somewhere
16:53:20 <OperatorTheDope> I’m the creator of Dick, a programming language about ASCII dicks
16:54:06 <arseniiv> something with static semantics and refinement typing
16:58:46 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
16:59:07 <fizzie> I think you got it all right though.
16:59:31 <arseniiv> OperatorTheDope: well, nothing to be sorry of, I’m just bad at suggesting links to good literature
17:03:32 -!- OperatorTheDope has set topic: Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org |eeee logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/kspalaiologos/esologs/.
17:03:59 -!- OperatorTheDope has set topic: Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/kspalaiologos/esologs/.
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18:01:18 <esowiki> [[PhD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80989&oldid=80977 * Hakerh400 * (+1949) Add interpreter
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18:09:31 <b_jonas> fungot, what is bigger than a universe?"
18:09:31 <fungot> b_jonas: wat.? abt the imp. at one? if dun go dunno up to u lo. esting macaroni also hor. dun cook. if parents go and check one! which brand is palladine.cant find much info on the brand is palladine.cant find much info on the brand is palladine.cant find much info on the brand is palladine.cant find much info on the brand is palladine.cant find much info on the brand is palladine.cant find much info on the brand is palladine.c
18:28:32 <fizzie> That sword alone can't stop.
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18:40:00 <HackEso> 1045) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
18:43:39 <fizzie> Weird, I thought that thing would have been recorded somewhere.
18:44:03 <esowiki> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80990&oldid=75873 * Emerald * (+0) /* Cellular automata */
18:46:49 <int-e> `quote 20sciencefiction
18:46:51 <HackEso> 810) <GreyKnight> fungot, sing me to sleep <fungot> GreyKnight: 53. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 14/ fnord <GreyKnight> This is not a very good song
18:49:27 <fizzie> That's may or may not be one of my paths, but if so, it does not sound too respective of intellectual property. :/
18:49:48 <fizzie> fungot: Have you been visiting those torrent sites again?
18:49:48 <fungot> fizzie: no d hav to finish dip code da browser n surf... goodnight have a nice sleep..sweet dreams... done... see u on saturday? all right take
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19:10:41 <esowiki> [[Meadow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80991 * Hakerh400 * (+1887) +[[Meadow]]
19:10:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80992&oldid=80966 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Meadow]]
19:10:48 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80993&oldid=80967 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Meadow]]
19:11:26 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80994&oldid=80988 * Orby * (+434) /* ZahlenCore */
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19:18:22 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80995&oldid=80994 * Orby * (-2) /* ZahlenCore */
19:18:34 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80996&oldid=80995 * Orby * (-1) /* Classes */
19:21:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mario * New user account
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19:38:39 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80997&oldid=80996 * Orby * (-48) /* ZahlenCore */
19:39:05 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80998&oldid=80997 * Orby * (+21) /* ZahlenCore */
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19:57:19 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80999&oldid=80998 * Orby * (-3) /* ZahlenCore */
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20:55:06 <esowiki> [[Meadow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81000&oldid=80991 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Interpreters */ cat
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21:09:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81001&oldid=80939 * Mario * (+20) Added me
21:15:05 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81002 * Mario * (+213) Created page with "<h1>Hello, <s>Big beautiful</s> World <s>Of esoteric languages</s>!</h1> Okay, I'll admit, I LOVE making and using esoteric languages Here are some that I have made:<ul> <..."
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21:15:43 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81003&oldid=80983 * Orby * (+8) /* Miscellaneous operators */
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21:20:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81004&oldid=80214 * Mario * (-3)
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21:27:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81005&oldid=81004 * Mario * (+143) Changed (some) MARKDOWN to HTML
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21:51:07 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81006&oldid=81003 * TaterTomorrow * (-4) Fixed spelling and grammar mistakes.
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22:07:30 <zzo38> Why do many computer solitaire card games not expose the suit of aces by default? (Some do, but many don't.)
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22:31:34 <int-e> shachaf: Have you expedited any more monsters?
22:33:08 <int-e> I'm inching closer to 100%... very slowly. 35 friends, 143 landmarks, 577 islands... I still think the toal is 600 (or at least, very close to that)
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22:40:50 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81007&oldid=76462 * Mario * (+3)
22:42:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Mario]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81008 * Mario * (+44) Created page with "Hello, there! This is my talk page (I guess)"
22:44:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81009&oldid=81008 * Mario * (+110) /* language requests */ new section
22:48:56 <esowiki> [[RPNCalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81010&oldid=74478 * Osmarks * (+2) fix osmarks.tkosmarks.net
22:49:19 <esowiki> [[RPNCalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81011&oldid=81010 * Osmarks * (+10) directly link to RPNCalcv4 page
22:58:36 <int-e> shachaf: I guess if you want to finish a game you could revisit Hiding Spot... you were pretty close to the end iirc... on the final floor, so you've seen all levels except for the very last one
22:59:13 <zzo38> (Also, in the card game that I described recently, there is no worrying back. I should have mentioned that.)
23:14:57 <HackEso> ulimit? No such file or directory
23:16:05 <int-e> My shell here reports 1036 which I find odd.
23:17:15 <fizzie> I get 1024 as well. I know there's some default limits that are derived from amount of memory, though, which leads to odd numbers presumably due to overhead and stuff like this.
23:17:37 <fizzie> I've got an `ulimit -u` of 128043, which is an odd number.
23:18:42 <fizzie> It's 7916 outside the umlbox on HackEso's system.
23:19:23 <fizzie> Still, ulimit -n is 1024 there as well, so probably your 1036 has some other source.
23:19:31 <int-e> Oh well... I guess it's not really worth investigating.
23:20:19 <int-e> if I `su -` to myself it's 1024, so it's probably connected to how the X11 session is set up
23:22:10 <fizzie> So I've got an ulimit -u of 128043, 62703, 7916 and 3833 on four different systems; they've got roughly 32, 16, 2 and 1 GiB of memory, respectively; that sounds like a very linear relationship.
23:22:43 <int-e> Oh and the hard limit is 1048576, so there are plenty of possible culprits for the extra 12 descruptors.
23:23:25 <fizzie> > zipWith (/) [32768, 16384, 2048, 1024] [128043, 62703, 7916, 3833]
23:23:27 <lambdabot> [0.2559140288809228,0.2612953128239478,0.25871652349671553,0.26715366553613357]
23:30:43 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81012&oldid=80512 * Nakilon * (+117) added the Reddit announcement post link
23:30:48 <int-e> ah it seems to be fvwm2's doing
23:31:34 <int-e> which I guess is old enough that the soft limit may have been too small on some systems.
23:32:31 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81013&oldid=81012 * Nakilon * (+4) formatting
23:41:41 <int-e> Nah, I was running fvwm witg valgrind and that seems to be the real culprit.
23:45:17 <nakilon> didn't know ulimit was proportional to RAM
23:45:23 <nakilon> thought it's just 1024 by default
23:47:10 <nakilon> 1024 on 1 GB CentOS server
23:48:55 <nakilon> observing myself I think I'm stopped with RASEL for now -- can't start making the debugger
23:49:43 <nakilon> the next esoteric thing will rather be some Zachtronix language adaptation idk when
23:52:27 <fizzie> Depends on the limit, and of course the system as well. `ulimit -u` on Linux is proportional to RAM with the rationale that you need at least 256k per process (don't remember if that was about standard stack size, or overhead, or what) for things to be useful, so it makes no sense to allow more processes than RAM / 256k.
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00:59:37 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81014&oldid=80964 * Quintopia * (-30) /* Befunge-93 Self-Interpreter */
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01:08:41 <fake_arseniiv> suppose we have a function (a snail moving strategy for a simulation) F and a function G which takes a seed, a few settings and this F, does simulation and returns an interesting result G(F, args)
01:10:44 <fake_arseniiv> now, we want for the author of F to be able to prove they ran a genuine G on it, without us having to run G ourselves
01:14:03 <fake_arseniiv> also there are two subproblems: either we aren't interested which F is, specifically, or we want to check that F is indeed what G was applied to, but the F's author may want to disclose just some hash of F
01:16:26 <fake_arseniiv> is this at all tractable? My original goal is just to write snail brains with some friends, write a simulator and test snails' coin-picking prowess. But cryptographic perfectionism
01:21:23 <fake_arseniiv> I mean, we'd want to be sure no one tampered with the simulation code, which we'd share between ourselves, run just our Fs and then cheaply check others' results are genuine
01:23:04 <fizzie> Sounds hard, but I will never cease to be amazed about what counterintuitive things turn out to be possible after all.
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01:30:36 <fake_arseniiv> I presume one would need to thread some computations with F's hash through G's simulation steps in a way which is non-detachable from that, somehow, so a genuine G will behave differently from any other fake G' such that even if G(F, args) = G'(F, args) for some args, eventually they'll disagree as many times as we like (presuming args inhabit an infinite type)
01:33:00 <fake_arseniiv> okay if someone will know something about this please @tell arseniiv, I'm to sleep at last now. Bye!
01:34:00 <fake_arseniiv> at least the phone irc app connection is stable with the new router
01:38:27 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81015&oldid=81007 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Undo revision 81007 by [[Special:Contributions/Mario|Mario]] ([[User talk:Mario|talk]])
01:38:38 <fake_arseniiv> fizzie: also I'd add cryptography amazes me with some results, like the first time I learned about dividing and recombining the secret. Amazing that often ideas are very simple
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06:27:34 <esowiki> [[Meadow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81016&oldid=81000 * Hakerh400 * (+1466) Add details
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09:16:47 <nakilon> 04:34:00 <fake_arseniiv> at least the phone irc app connection is stable with the new router
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11:33:22 <nakilon> I'm willing to make the same thing for pastebins: https://github.com/Nakilon/pcbr-demo/blob/master/imguralternatives.txt
11:33:53 <nakilon> this table results in https://i.imgur.com/FCtw55w.png
11:34:49 <nakilon> I've added few rows and columns today; it's tedious; I tried to make the same about pastebins ~10 years ago but didn't finish
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12:01:42 <nakilon> arseniiv some has faked you and said he uses some mobile app for IRC -- what app does he use?
12:03:07 <arseniiv> nakilon: yep that was me! It was something named AndChat, I downloaded it from google play long ago and now it seems it’s not there anymore. It suits my old phone nicely though
12:04:58 <fizzie> Hah, is that https://github.com/juhovh/jmirc or something else with a matching name? ;)
12:06:06 <nakilon> idk about this repo but that was on my Sony Ericsson
12:06:38 <nakilon> I've searched for "screenshots" now and felt so nostalgic about these huge pixels
12:06:55 <arseniiv> when I used Sony Ericsson, I didn’t know about IRC :′(
12:07:33 <fizzie> http://jmirc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html then?
12:07:47 <arseniiv> and sometimes it didn’t want to log in hundred times in a row
12:08:20 <fizzie> That's so random, the author of that thing is in my top 3 of people I spent most time with back in university.
12:08:27 <fizzie> And still sort of keep in touch with.
12:09:30 <nakilon> I'll tell people now that I chat sometimes with dude who spent time with jmirc author
12:09:41 <fizzie> I never used his client, though, because I already had written my own J2ME one for the no-idea-what-phone-it-was, Siemens M50 or something.
12:10:36 <nakilon> the GPRS was expensive, like few dollars per MB, so IRC was an awesome tool to communicate
12:13:05 <nakilon> I didn't make IRC clients but there was some Telnet J2ME client and our ADSL provided external IP (and Dyndns in the router, you know) so I made a little server on my desktop so when I was in town I could quickly check if someone has sent me something in ICQ reading log files from the QIP
12:14:52 <fizzie> The operator I had at the time had some roaming pricing quirks which meant <50k (minimum charge) GPRS data was cheaper than 1 SMS (at least in some countries), so for holiday trips I had this J2ME app that sent a message in a single UDP packet (with a hardcoded IP), and a corresponding server that emailed it to family, so we could send some basic unidirectional updates cheaper.
12:15:26 <fizzie> If memory serves, with no proof of delivery (being UDP and all that), but you gotta stay optimistic about these things.
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12:58:03 <nakilon> btw, after installing this BNC and making its pinned tab in the main Chrome window I used IRC with monospace font
12:58:17 <nakilon> I don't remember exactly what was it, maybe Menlo
12:59:14 <nakilon> but I've noticed that I read and comprehend chat worse than I do with forums, articles, so I changed it to Tahoma and it really became easier
13:00:00 <nakilon> I suppose I could use some Tahoma for programming too if the computer was smart enough to fix my typos caused by keming
13:00:19 <nakilon> maybe I would program faster
13:25:18 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81017&oldid=81002 * Mario * (+14)
13:26:20 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81018&oldid=81017 * Mario * (-7)
13:26:46 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81019&oldid=81018 * Mario * (+0)
13:27:05 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81020&oldid=81019 * Mario * (-4)
13:27:29 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81021&oldid=81020 * Mario * (+0)
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16:38:58 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81022&oldid=81006 * Orby * (+77) /* Unary operators */
16:41:18 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81023&oldid=80999 * Orby * (+1983)
16:41:36 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81024&oldid=81023 * Orby * (+4) /* Z1 */
16:46:38 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81025&oldid=81021 * Mario * (+6)
16:48:12 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81026&oldid=81025 * Mario * (-8)
16:49:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81027&oldid=81009 * Mario * (-3) /* language requests */
16:59:29 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81028&oldid=81026 * Mario * (+139)
17:13:28 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81029&oldid=81024 * Orby * (+21) /* Z1 */
17:17:41 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81030&oldid=81029 * Orby * (+21) /* Z1 */
17:18:06 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81031&oldid=81030 * Orby * (-1388) /* Z1 */
17:18:19 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81032&oldid=81031 * Orby * (-62) /* Z1 */
17:39:49 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81033&oldid=81032 * Orby * (-55) /* Z1 */
18:25:11 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81034&oldid=81022 * Orby * (+0) /* AND pattern */
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19:37:05 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81036&oldid=81034 * Orby * (-55) /* Miscellaneous operators */ Replace while and end ops with jz op
19:38:34 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81037&oldid=81036 * Orby * (-106) /* Subroutines */ Updating documentation to reflect reference code
19:39:39 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81038&oldid=81035 * Orby * (-119) /* Z1 */
19:43:58 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81039&oldid=81038 * Orby * (-112) /* Z1 */
19:54:39 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81040&oldid=81039 * Orby * (-62) /* TODO */
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20:51:57 <esowiki> [[G*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81041&oldid=49928 * Expliked * (+12) updated dead link
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21:36:57 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81042&oldid=81040 * Orby * (+1599) /* Z1 */
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03:42:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RetroPain * New user account
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04:06:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81043&oldid=81001 * RetroPain * (+161) /* Introductions */
04:12:40 <esowiki> [[User:RetroPain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81044 * RetroPain * (+42) It's me
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04:51:38 <esowiki> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81045&oldid=80266 * Gilbert189 * (-3) /* C */
04:52:41 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81046&oldid=80921 * Gilbert189 * (+52) /* General languages */
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06:20:41 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81047 * 1hals * (+4831) Create page for the programming language Backwords
06:21:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81048&oldid=80992 * 1hals * (+16) /* B */ add Backwords
06:22:28 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81049&oldid=81047 * 1hals * (+41) add more categories
06:25:15 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81050&oldid=81049 * 1hals * (+122) add example programs
06:27:32 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81051&oldid=81050 * 1hals * (+39) fix up introduction secion
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06:30:54 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81052&oldid=81051 * 1hals * (+18) add credit
06:31:44 <esowiki> [[User:1hals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81053&oldid=80730 * 1hals * (+49) add github
06:36:22 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81054&oldid=74750 * 1hals * (+43) /* Implementations */ add another implementation because funny
06:38:31 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81055&oldid=81052 * 1hals * (-19) /* Examples */ add more
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06:44:01 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81056&oldid=81055 * 1hals * (+251) /* Examples */ add self-interpreter
06:48:26 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81057&oldid=81056 * 1hals * (+79) add categories
06:54:40 <esowiki> [[User:1hals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81058&oldid=81053 * 1hals * (+170) Added brainfuck interpreter link
06:55:42 <esowiki> [[User:1hals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81059&oldid=81058 * 1hals * (+84)
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08:25:32 <Sgeo> .sid files contain 6502 machine code. I wonder if someone might devise a music format for WebAssembly. I guess that would require specifying some sort of synthesizer controllable with wasm
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13:25:42 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81060&oldid=81037 * Orby * (-131) /* Trigonometric functions */
13:26:07 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81061&oldid=81060 * Orby * (-1) /* Trigonometric functions */ Formatting
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18:54:09 <esowiki> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81062&oldid=80916 * Zero player rodent * (+67)
18:54:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81063&oldid=80919 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
18:56:48 <esowiki> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81064&oldid=81062 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
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19:11:34 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81065&oldid=80566 * Zero player rodent * (+130)
19:17:16 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81066&oldid=80949 * Zero player rodent * (+92)
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01:39:03 <esowiki> [[Pain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81067 * RetroPain * (+3087) Created page with "'''Pain''' is an [[Esoteric_programming_language|Esolang]] created by [[user:RetroPain]] ==List of Instuctions== {| class="wikitable" !Instruction !Description |- | style="tex..."
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03:36:33 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81068&oldid=81067 * RetroPain * (+23)
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07:50:21 <esowiki> [[User:TaterTomorrow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81069 * TaterTomorrow * (+219) Made my user page.
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15:17:31 <esowiki> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81070&oldid=81068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) C a t s
15:17:52 <esowiki> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81071&oldid=81070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* List of Instuctions */ fix
15:18:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81072 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+254) /* String */ new section
15:36:36 <nakilon> the best Wikipedia Software Comparison Table ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Java_Remote_Desktop_projects
15:55:13 <fizzie> It looked a little more complete back at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_Java_Remote_Desktop_projects&oldid=866079243
15:55:32 <fizzie> Then someone went and "removed program without article, deemed not notable".
16:22:42 <nakilon> oh I saw such edit already for a comparison of profilers
16:23:22 <nakilon> I think it's counterproductive
16:34:21 <esowiki> [[User:RetroPain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81073&oldid=81044 * RetroPain * (+86)
16:48:25 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81074&oldid=81071 * RetroPain * (+203) /* List of Instuctions */
16:54:49 <esowiki> [[User:RetroPain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81075&oldid=81073 * RetroPain * (+67) /* My esolangs */
16:56:43 <esowiki> [[User:RetroPain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81076&oldid=81075 * RetroPain * (-2)
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17:17:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81077&oldid=81072 * RetroPain * (+221) /* String */
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17:26:41 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81078&oldid=81074 * RetroPain * (+680)
18:45:45 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81079&oldid=81078 * RetroPain * (+513) /* Hello, world */
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20:26:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, one of the goals of the esowiki is to serve as a loading place for non-notable esolang-related content, so that people put their first and very innovative ascii-art dick without control flow esolang here instead of trying to make an article on Wikipedias for them
20:33:54 <nakilon> arseniiv there is a subreddit for cats
20:35:06 * nakilon changed name to innovative_uncontroled_dick
20:35:13 <arseniiv> nakilon: wait, they write there or?..
20:36:15 <nakilon> though the subreddit is currently lame because moderators were away
20:36:36 <arseniiv> yep I agree we couldn’t disprove they aren’t cats, for example they might be cute small turtles
20:43:50 <arseniiv> also if you want to read and then maybe write some nonse, there is now https://gist.github.com/arseniiv/859d9bbf2cb8c0054ff17c03e41bf6d1
20:49:50 <nakilon> arseniiv any output example?
20:50:07 <arseniiv> after the snail takes a coin, it doesn’t vanish
20:50:20 <arseniiv> yep I should paste the output from the usual run
20:51:05 <arseniiv> damn, and I thought why the lazy strategy is so unreasonably good; now I see
20:56:41 <nakilon> wait, I thought it's a text generator
21:11:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81080&oldid=81077 * RetroPain * (+115) /* String */
21:26:17 * nakilon has achieved the ~90% accuracy in measuring which photo is cool and which isn't
21:47:06 <HackEso> smlist 521: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
21:49:02 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81081&oldid=81079 * RetroPain * (+4112)
21:51:40 <nakilon> since there were already two men (me and some guy few days ago) who wants to intersect categories in esowiki
21:51:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81082&oldid=81048 * RetroPain * (+11) /* P */
21:52:05 <nakilon> and since scraping them was a pretty quick and trivial thing
21:52:57 <nakilon> I could make a webpage that refreshes sometimes and provides some interface like... adding tags (categories) to a list to print their intersection
21:53:12 <nakilon> could probably be adapted to other wikis but I don't use any
21:53:56 <nakilon> and I'm not into HTML/CSS so I don't know which libraries I should take for such interface but that's not a big problem I guess
21:58:20 <nakilon> it's a Cat Day today in Russia
21:58:47 <zzo38> You can design the interface without CSS if the interface doesn't need it. I do know how to make forms in HTML; you do not need any library to do so.
21:59:41 <nakilon> but people love bells and wistles
22:01:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81083&oldid=81063 * RetroPain * (+119)
22:04:22 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81084&oldid=81081 * RetroPain * (+4) /* Truth-Machine */
22:04:58 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81085&oldid=81084 * RetroPain * (+0) /* Truth-Machine */
22:05:12 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81086&oldid=81085 * RetroPain * (+0) /* truth-machine */
22:05:25 <arseniiv> <nakilon> it's a Cat Day today in Russia => :o I didn’t know, I mewed (I mean that was my cat, she’s mewed) completely accidentally
22:06:56 <arseniiv> nakilon: I know MediaWiki has API so you won’t necessary have to scrape the data from wiki pages, but I’m very bad at HTML+CSS+JS too
22:07:15 <nakilon> arseniiv I meant scraping the API
22:07:15 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81087&oldid=81086 * RetroPain * (+109) /* Truth-machine */
22:07:45 <arseniiv> (I wanted to make a simple browser-based sound tool and I procrastinate doing that for several months now)
22:08:06 <arseniiv> so at least MW’s API should be not that bad, though I heard it may be too
22:08:57 <arseniiv> ah! It also had a Python API (which uses the regular HTTP one, of course), though I don’t remember if it was exclusively for bots or any users
22:09:09 <nakilon> it just needs a minute to scrape all the categories so it should rather be done periodically than when the user asks
22:10:26 <nakilon> or, of course, it can scrape only the categories the user choses
22:11:39 <nakilon> and if he choses too many categories it will stop scraping when the folded intersection results has reached the empty array, but what if user want to not only intersect but also merge
22:13:03 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81088&oldid=81087 * RetroPain * (+3) /* Simple Pain Instuctions */
22:15:26 <arseniiv> maybe something like simple query language which has `AND` and `OR` and the parser constructs a, well, schedule what categories to scrape and what operations to make with the results. If it would take too long to do that and only finally show the result, only then a more complex design could be made?..
22:16:49 <arseniiv> I’m giving silly unnecessary advice today, I don’t know why
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22:17:47 <b_jonas> nakilon: https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-02.html#l5Ib re category intersection
22:18:21 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81089&oldid=81088 * RetroPain * (+3) /* Simple Pain Instuctions */
22:18:45 <nakilon> arseniiv that advise isn't silly, actually it fits the target audience
22:19:03 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81090&oldid=81089 * RetroPain * (+36)
22:19:32 <arseniiv> I just didn’t know if it would be more of a parsing problem or something else
22:20:28 <nakilon> when I tried Wikipedia API tools like this one it could not search even Wikipedia itself
22:20:48 <nakilon> and guys on Wikipedia IRC channel didn't figure out what's wrong ..D
22:21:37 <arseniiv> though I won’t advice writing parsers in JS, that’s a language which had an underspecified String.split or String.replace, which broke when empty strings were passed as some of the arguments; don’t remember precisely what but that would be unthinkable for another mature language to have at its age
22:22:10 <nakilon> but at least it's an example of interface
22:22:30 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81091&oldid=81090 * RetroPain * (+73)
22:23:39 <arseniiv> btw unrelated, I wonder what wonders are to come in Python 3.10. One guy implements a pattern matching PEP, that would be nice to have at last
22:24:07 <nakilon> just check what was implemented in Ruby years ago
22:24:26 <nakilon> they mimic it with just a delay of ~10 years
22:24:37 <arseniiv> I know Python is too bland to mention frequently on this channel, but that’s my current language of choice, given it has a decent typing with tools like mypy. No Haskell but still nice, portable etc. numpy
22:24:58 <nakilon> took the pattern matching idea relatively fast though, just in two years or so
22:25:19 <zzo38> A SQLite extension would help I think, then you can use full SQL codes to query it, including joins, intersections, etc. Another alternative would be RDF (you can then use SPARQL to query it, or my own idea which is SQL+RDF which is a bit similar). (I also recently saw something else that use PostgreSQL to access remote data with APIs, so that is another alternative.)
22:25:48 <nakilon> zzo38 there is wiki plugin with web interface, it's just not installed
22:26:27 <arseniiv> (Ruby is… fail-unsafe, I’d say. Too dynamic? How do I say. That’s all a matter of taste of course, also I can’t stomach Perl too)
22:26:46 <nakilon> don't listen to propaganda
22:27:01 <zzo38> I also agree JavaScript is not the best programming language to write a parser, although you can do so and it will work OK. (I have done a few times)
22:27:05 <nakilon> Ruby was always the same as Python in view of safety and application
22:27:17 <nakilon> only had much better stdlib, syntax, etc.
22:27:31 <arseniiv> (though Perl has a thing like marpa parsing engine, ah)
22:28:04 <zzo38> My programming language of choice mostly is C, but for some things, other programming languages can be good, and sometimes more than one is used
22:28:26 <zzo38> (C with GNU extensions)
22:28:33 <nakilon> just read which language was invented when and why
22:28:40 <arseniiv> I meant another kind of unsafeness, I can’t say exactly what I meant. I read the Ruby book a time ago and it was interesting but hm
22:28:48 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81092&oldid=81091 * RetroPain * (+3) /* Some other facts */
22:29:03 <nakilon> Ruby took the best from Python, Perl and Smalltalk and discarded the worst
22:29:09 <arseniiv> I wonder if it admits static typing that well?..
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22:29:25 <arseniiv> I can’t live without static types too long, I’m afraid :D
22:29:40 <nakilon> arseniiv it's already in Ruby 3.0
22:29:57 <arseniiv> will need to check out some time then
22:30:07 <nakilon> and was already for several years in Ruy 2.x via libraries
22:30:51 <nakilon> I didn't use it but AFAIK it's similar to Python in that you can either specify types or not, as much of them as you want
22:31:10 <zzo38> For some programs, I invent a programming language for its use; e.g. Free Hero Mesh has its own programming language (although Free Hero Mesh itself is written in C). I also think that should be invented a programming language for defining Magic: the Gathering cards, although I have not done that or implemented it, I wrote some ideas. Many other programs do similar things, but some use Lua or something like that instead.
22:32:19 <nakilon> https://docs.ruby-lang.org/en/3.0.0/doc/syntax/pattern_matching_rdoc.html
22:32:49 <zzo38> (Also, JavaScript does not have PCRE regular expressions, so that is one thing that makes it worse.)
22:36:57 <nakilon> every corner of this language is full of bad language design decisions like this one
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22:43:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: sometimes it works, sometimes it silently doesn't give results or silently gives too few. I never figured out why. still better than nothing.
22:54:11 <shachaf> Wait, I don't want PCRE as a default at all.
22:56:29 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81093&oldid=81092 * RetroPain * (+92) /* Example programs */
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23:04:38 <zzo38> OK, then, which one do you want?
23:05:18 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81096&oldid=81095 * RetroPain * (+4) /* Hello, world */
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23:19:28 <arseniiv> shachaf: .net-compliant regexp syntax?
23:20:02 <shachaf> Something with no backtracking.
23:27:12 <arseniiv> there are those ?-suffixed quantifiers ?? +? *?, do they behave better in this regard? I don’t precisely remember what’s the difference between them and usual greedy and non-greedy varietes
23:30:29 <shachaf> Well, I just want a guarantee that it won't accidentally use a lot of time when matching.
23:31:48 <shachaf> Using the ?-suffixed things doesn't do that.
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