00:03:30 <fizzie> re2 is the default default regex engine.
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00:39:13 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81099&oldid=81098 * RetroPain * (+248)
00:40:56 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81100&oldid=81099 * RetroPain * (+46) /* implementations */
00:49:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Trump Bot * New user account
00:59:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's not how it works. non-greedy match can still be slow when it fails but tries everything to match
00:59:25 <shachaf> b_jonas: What's not how it works?
00:59:38 <shachaf> Non-greedy matching doesn't do what I want, and can still be slow, is what I said.
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01:35:44 <esowiki> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81101&oldid=81100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Cat program */ Format
01:47:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81102&oldid=81043 * Trump Bot * (+109)
01:57:10 <nakilon> can't fetch the file from the child domain
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03:20:15 <nakilon> https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/configuring-cors says: "ORIGIN is an origin allowed for cross origin resource sharing with this bucket. For example, example.appspot.com."
03:21:19 <nakilon> but only two pages below in the "Ensure that the request has an Origin header and that the header value matches ..." there is the correct format -- it needs "http://"
03:35:30 <nakilon> okay, done: http://www.nakilon.pro/esolang.htm?
03:36:05 <nakilon> note the "?" at the end of the url -- it might be needed during the next minutes/hour due to CDN cache
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03:39:11 <nakilon> this is weird: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Cell-based description mentions Befunge but it isn't in this category
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04:21:10 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81103&oldid=81101 * RetroPain * (+2) /* Cat program */
04:41:14 <esowiki> [[User:Nakilon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81104&oldid=79471 * Nakilon * (+126) added link to the "Esolang categories intersector"
05:08:36 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81105&oldid=81014 * Quintopia * (+162) added another example of B97 command.
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06:55:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ColorfulGalaxy * New user account
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07:00:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81106&oldid=81102 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+230)
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07:55:05 <Sgeo> John Shutt (creator of Kernel Lisp) died
08:05:31 <Sgeo> https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_mourns_loss_of_volunteer_John_Shutt
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08:15:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81107 * Trump Bot * (+533) Also, please vote for the "Yes Smoking Day" (a holiday on November 31st as opposed to No smoking day) proposal
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13:04:37 <nakilon> guys maybe there is already such a language that I imagining right now?...
13:06:57 <nakilon> there is no stack, only the two layers: 1. the instructions layer, that is a source code like in any funge 2. the data layer where the stdin comes to and gets processed by the instructions
13:08:28 <nakilon> the layers exist directly one above another one, that is the stdin data byte-by-byte come to the left-top cell and then are moving automatically every tick to the direction it moved the last time, being processed by the instruction on the same coordinate from the instructions layer
13:10:34 <nakilon> so the data flows over the 2d code like in a 2d version of the http://www.zachtronics.com/infinifactory/
13:11:49 <nakilon> unlike the game, it's not 3d, there are only 2 layers (and probably no funge's toroidal jumping over the edges of the space, not sure yet)
13:12:41 <nakilon> and the instructions are > < v ^ : (dup) / -
13:13:21 <nakilon> so the flow of data through the space has to be used as stack if you need it
13:14:19 <nakilon> oh, and some conditional instruction that conditionally tramplines the byte
13:16:56 <nakilon> so if, for example, you want to push something "3 positions deeper to the stack" you take if out from the flow (the imaginary conveyor line over which the bytes are moving), move around and push from the side on the "conveyor" behind the following bytes
13:17:43 <nakilon> but idk how to make a random read from the flow
13:24:45 <nakilon> conditional and arithmetic instructions (/, -) are consuming one byte and editing the next byte letting it out on the next tick
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13:26:10 <nakilon> when two or more bytes are willing to get to the same coordinate they are prioritized by the order of appearance from the stdin
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13:28:17 <nakilon> the "/" "-" instructions, when they spawn a new byte, they give it the same priority that the last processed byte had; ":" inserts the new byte in between of priority queue
13:32:10 <nakilon> I'm now losing the understanding the difference between terms of the language and the VM that runs it
13:34:56 <nakilon> I mean, for example, Befunge -- the reference explanations of what the instructions do is a language I guess while the description of the space is a "Befunge machine", not a "Befunge language" I guess
13:40:06 <esowiki> [[User:RetroPain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81108&oldid=81076 * RetroPain * (+2) /* 2021 */
13:59:27 <nakilon> actually you can turn around and push some byte from the side onto the conditional instruction to make it to "knock out" some byte from the flow to other side
14:00:22 <nakilon> you don't even need to make free spaces to insert something into a tail because tail bytes have lower priority
14:00:37 <nakilon> but there should be some technic to compress the flow
14:01:35 <nakilon> oh no, nvm, it's not possible, you can't make the time go faster
14:02:46 <nakilon> but... there should be the way to stop the byte to make the next one reach it if it's delayed...
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14:53:03 <nakilon> found some bug in my scraping, some categories are showing as empty but they aren't
14:56:22 <nakilon> oh, those are categories of categories
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15:00:26 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Posibly%20turing%20complete -- this one has redirect to "unknown computational class"
15:00:34 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Possibly%20turing%20complete -- this one is "pending deletion
15:01:22 <nakilon> I suppose redirect should be on 2 or both to be deleted
15:02:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: frankly I don't understand your description of the semantics of that programming language with befunge-like arrows
15:04:25 <b_jonas> though I'm also not too interested in it
15:09:11 <nakilon> it's like the old flash game http://archeralex.github.io/manufactoria/
15:10:47 <nakilon> it has the (STD)IN and (STD)OUT and you program it to process the data in between that is essentially how zachtronics's games usually work too, I guess Manufactoria has inspired them some years ago
15:11:30 <nakilon> oh waaaaait, the Manufactoria was their game! http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manufactoria/
15:12:59 <nakilon> so my idea is like an adaptation of mechanics of that old game to the terminal world, i.e. working with real STDIN and STDOUT
15:15:20 <nakilon> ah, nope, it's not their game but was posted in their blog as a candidate for some weekly gamedev challenge or something
15:19:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81109&oldid=50325 * RetroPain * (+134)
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15:58:51 <b_jonas> ok so there's a naming conflict. git now has a switch subcommand. (the docs say that it's experimental.) its name conflicts with an alias subcommand that I set up before git had that subcommand.
15:59:56 <b_jonas> I'm trying to figure out what I should do about this. luckily the rest of my aliases have sillier names and so probably won't have this problem.
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16:30:19 <b_jonas> fungot: of the places that Mary went, what is the ratio of those to which the lamb was sure to go?
16:30:19 <fungot> b_jonas: to write only..i dnt knw so i askd u for dis program but u didnt.i trusted u only na..i thaught i am angry
16:49:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: very well. the names of the aliases I have set up in my config are: logns logp bs whereami dicc lsref switch
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16:51:13 <b_jonas> bs doesn't stand for bullshit, (git bs) is an alias to (git status -bs)
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17:16:07 <int-e> fungot: what would happen if you were trained on nursery rhymes?
17:16:07 <fungot> int-e: v didnt start yet d..goin to start now, make me dinner and help me get it done soon mah.
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17:28:12 <fizzie> My only git alias is `log1 = log --oneline --decorate=full --graph`.
17:34:48 <int-e> changes=log -p --reverse ..origin, ci=commit
17:35:25 <int-e> probably barely used
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19:02:35 <nakilon> moved gist to a repo https://github.com/Nakilon/esolang and made a scheduled Github Action that will update the page every day
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19:55:29 <esowiki> [[FILO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81110&oldid=79785 * Qpliu * (+569) Rework language to be more usable for programming
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21:54:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Emerald * uploaded "[[File:1EA23DDC-40BC-4A30-A045-372C7A6B34D7.png]]"
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22:23:05 <nakilon> SSCAIT (Starcraft AI tournament) Finals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NS6LEPh-vc (starting somewhere around 40:00)
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22:39:16 <nakilon> two more recents videos on the channel are some Human vs AI matches
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23:32:42 <shachaf> int-e: Maybe you'll like this game that jix mentioned: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1471960/Room_to_Grow/
23:33:36 <fizzie> That reminds me of the Snakebird music.
23:34:44 <fizzie> But maybe that's just how block-pushing games are supposed to sound like.
23:37:18 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't know about the music, but the actual moving-around sound reminded me of Snakebird.
23:37:26 <shachaf> So much that I was wondering whether it was the same people or something.
23:48:59 <zzo38> Are block-pushing games supposed to have a specific style of music?
23:52:22 <zzo38> (Hero Mesh has a version of Piano Sonata No.11 Movement III by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, although you can substitute your own music if you want to.)
00:05:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Possibly turing complete]]": Author request: content was: "Pending deletion", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Moon|Moon]]" ([[User talk:Moon|talk]])
00:06:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Posibly turing complete]]": unapproved/undiscussed category
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00:54:35 <esowiki> [[Em3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81112 * Emerald * (+213) Hell
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00:55:14 <esowiki> [[Em3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81113&oldid=81112 * Emerald * (+26)
00:57:31 <esowiki> [[File:1EA23DDC-40BC-4A30-A045-372C7A6B34D7.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81114&oldid=81111 * Emerald * (-1) Blanked the page
01:04:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81115&oldid=71945 * Emerald * (+210) /* Please delete an image. */ new section
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02:44:14 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81116&oldid=71625 * Fwander * (+75)
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04:02:35 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81117&oldid=79480 * DGCK81LNN * (-4) /* Befunge simple game Less or More */
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05:37:32 <int-e> shachaf: hmm maybe
06:02:20 <int-e> "The target audience would ideally bear through the frustration of having their initial attempts thwarted, and persevere until they figure out the solution for themselves. Because, outside of that interaction, there’s little joy to be had in Room to Grow." -- iow, it's a puzzle game :P
06:04:47 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Tue Mar 2 07:04:44 2021
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12:42:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81118&oldid=70777 * Emerald * (+165) /* Admin list? */ new section
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13:11:12 <int-e> hmmm "To be fair I had no idea most sscanf implementations called strlen [...]" -- I'm surprised too. (cf. https://nee.lv/2021/02/28/How-I-cut-GTA-Online-loading-times-by-70/ )
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13:22:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81119&oldid=81118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+277) /* Admin list? */ Reply
13:27:40 <esowiki> [[*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81120&oldid=79211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Random Number Generator between 0 and 2,147,483,647 */ Fix example
13:43:41 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81121&oldid=80764 * Kekcsi * (+297) about reverse tokenization
13:44:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. I think the important part for game music is that the player should be able to change the volume or mute the game music separately from other sound effects of the game, so that if they want, they can listen to music from somewhere outside the game while still hearing the game sound effects.
13:45:12 <b_jonas> most games get this right these days.
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13:47:50 <TheLie> Some people might want to clearly hear the game sounds without music…
13:55:04 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81122&oldid=81121 * Kekcsi * (+116) /* Interpreted? */
14:01:48 <b_jonas> TheLie: that happens too, especially when the game interface is badly designed and a very low volume sound effect gives you an advantage that you can't get otherwise. this happened in Spelunky 2 on the cosmic ocean levels, both with the bubble pop sound effects and more importantly the bubble ambiant sound effects. in those cases, the interface should be fixed too, to give a visual clue and possibly a
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14:43:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:1EA23DDC-40BC-4A30-A045-372C7A6B34D7.png]]": author request; also privacy violation
14:44:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81123&oldid=81115 * Ais523 * (+145) /* Please delete an image. */ done
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15:28:35 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81124&oldid=81122 * Kekcsi * (+36) deeper links
15:32:06 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81125&oldid=81124 * Kekcsi * (+51) /* The imeight language */
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18:57:13 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81126&oldid=80585 * Smjg * (+1) /* Terminates First */ rm spurious line breaks that were messing up the output
19:16:51 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81127&oldid=81028 * Mario * (+101)
19:19:40 <int-e> shachaf: okay, growing space is cute... and tricky
19:33:44 <int-e> let's see if the proton thing runs it on linux
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19:53:47 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I agree, I should want to be able to change music and sound effects volume separately
20:04:48 <esowiki> [[2cmd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81128 * Mario * (+786) Created page with "<h1>2CMD...</h1> ...is an esoteric language with only two commands (<code> </code> and <code>&</code>) <hr> <code> </code> Just increments the TOS <hr> <code>&</code>, though..."
20:05:53 <esowiki> [[2CMD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81129 * Mario * (+18) Redirected page to [[2cmd]]
20:22:13 <int-e> shachaf: not looking for hints, but this one has me stumped: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grow.jpg (last one left in the forest)
20:22:53 <int-e> (I'll probably figure it out eventually)
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20:30:35 <int-e> I actually expect it'll be easy in retrospect
20:34:18 <int-e> it's nice that the game has alternative routes
20:37:24 <shachaf> I definitely got lucky, because now I can't quite reproduce my solution, hmm.
20:46:27 <int-e> I hate when that happens
20:49:12 <shachaf> Wait, I just solved it a second time, said "aha, that was the trick", and now I can't reproduce it again.
20:58:27 <shachaf> Well, now I can reproduce it, at least.
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21:40:36 <int-e> ah, obvious in retrospect it is
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22:13:21 <zzo38> The level editor in my program worked before and now it doesn't work.
22:14:59 <nakilon> https://nullprogram.com/blog/2020/06/29/
22:15:08 <nakilon> ^ images are clickable videos
22:16:15 <nakilon> finally found a time to read the https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/03/12/
22:18:34 <nakilon> 16:47:50 <TheLie> Some people might want to clearly hear the game sounds without music…
22:18:38 <nakilon> I play games without music
22:19:00 <nakilon> I wanna be aware of every noise that happens
22:20:09 <nakilon> and if the music is supposed to entertain me then it's not the best game if it does not entertain me with a gameplay enough
22:20:55 <nakilon> b_jonas damn, I can't reach the cosmic ocean yet
22:37:40 <zzo38> I had once figured out a cheat code to disable the music in Super Mario Land, although I no longer have that.
22:37:47 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81130&oldid=80926 * Emerald * (+193) winner determined
22:40:03 <zzo38> Pokemon de Panepon has a music switch and sound switch option, but they are hidden; go to the option menu, move the cursor to the "gallery" option (the last one), and then push SELECT and A buttons together, and then another menu will come up with music switch and sound switch, and other options (including one to adjust the maximum number of digits in the score; I don't know why).
23:02:08 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81131&oldid=77746 * Emerald * (+754) Em3
23:03:50 <esowiki> [[Em3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81132&oldid=81113 * Emerald * (-156) Redirected page to [[User:Emerald/sandbox#Em3]]
23:22:13 <zzo38> I found the mistake in my program; it was just one character wrong, in a numeric constant. Such things can happen.
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23:31:38 <zzo38> This can be either due to typing the wrong number even though you know which number is correct, or due to writing the number that you believed to be correct, but later figured out that a different number is better. In my case, it is the latter; I had 0x20 but 0xC0 is correct, so I changed it to that and now it works OK. (It has to do with the variant of RLE used in this program.)
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00:21:04 <fizzie> fungot: Everything all right?
00:21:04 <fungot> fizzie: after u log in skype. will talk later
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01:09:50 <esowiki> [[Iavac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81133&oldid=66746 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* Special Addresses (memory mapping) */ cats
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01:36:21 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81134&oldid=58688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+819) /* Fibonacci Sequence */ Categories, Interpeeter
01:36:46 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81135&oldid=81134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreter */ cat
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02:35:26 <nakilon> updated: 2021-03-03 00:38:24 +0000
02:35:43 <nakilon> looks like Github Action cron isn't very precise
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03:48:46 <zzo38> Do you like the syntax of Free Hero Mesh?
03:51:59 <zzo38> Do you like tsume shogi or any chess problems?
04:08:28 <zzo38> (I have a tsume shogi game on my computer, I have figured out some of them)
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04:31:01 <zzo38> Why are many programs not documented very well?
04:31:35 <zzo38> I try to use some program, but sometimes it is difficult because it is not documented.
04:37:07 <esowiki> [[Magicard!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81136&oldid=45996 * Quintopia * (+0) typo
04:41:47 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81137&oldid=80635 * Erinius * (+126)
04:51:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: https://ajxs.me/blog/Giving_Ada_a_chance.html
04:53:45 <Sgeo> I haven't looked in Ada at a long time, but that blog post's mentioning of embedded stuff makes me wonder if there's an Ada compiler for Commodore 64
04:54:07 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
05:12:48 <esowiki> [[SetBang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81138&oldid=49070 * Erinius * (+82)
07:25:29 <nakilon> didn't read science fiction for like15 years
07:26:04 <nakilon> there must be some post-apocaliptic novel about robots on the Earth withuot humans
07:30:30 <nakilon> lol, wtf https://i.imgur.com/yZJBXRu.png
07:31:47 <nakilon> some advertisment, this picture is supposed to be about the "industrial revolution"
07:43:13 <zzo38> I managed to solve the first 100 out of 200 levels of tsume shogi so far.
07:45:21 <zzo38> It is a similar game to chess.
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08:30:00 <Sgeo> Suddenly I want to play Logication again
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13:24:22 <esowiki> [[Self%ify]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81139 * Mario * (+1678) Created page with "<h1>SELF%IFY...</h1> Is unique because the source, STDIN, and STDOUT are all the same, however, this does not remove any abilities, and if anything, actually <em>adds</em> to..."
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13:43:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Mario * moved [[2cmd]] to [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]]: Name change
13:44:12 <esowiki> [[2cmd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81142&oldid=81141 * Mario * (-57) Blanked the page
13:45:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Mario * moved [[2cmd]] to [[Empty page]]
13:50:15 <esowiki> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81145&oldid=81140 * Mario * (+64)
13:51:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Mario * moved [[Empty page]] to [[TPCAR]]
13:51:43 <esowiki> [[TPCAR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81148&oldid=81146 * Mario * (+57) Redirected page to [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of a Robbery]]
13:52:18 <esowiki> [[TPCAR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81149&oldid=81148 * Mario * (+0) Changed redirect target from [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of a Robbery]] to [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]]
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14:27:48 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81150&oldid=81127 * Mario * (+1)
14:40:00 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81151&oldid=80531 * Bo Tie * (+150) turing complete, cool
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15:30:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[2CMD]]": Broken redirect
15:30:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JustJude * New user account
15:30:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[2cmd]]": Broken redirect
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15:38:26 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81152&oldid=81151 * Bo Tie * (+82)
15:39:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81153&oldid=81106 * JustJude * (+105) /* Introductions */
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16:26:07 <arseniiv> that’s fabulous though I probably won’t need that trick ever
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16:28:08 <arseniiv> I presume one can traverse the list in increments of ±1, …, ±(2^n − 1) by adding xor-link fields for increments of 2, 4 and so on?
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16:32:01 <fizzie> Sounds likely, but it'd make any deletions and insertions real expensive.
16:32:23 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "real" expensive, but anyway more complex.
16:33:50 <arseniiv> hm no, it seems several layers don’t help each other: say we came to 4 from 2, then we can come to 6 but we can’t come to 3 or 5
16:34:42 <arseniiv> or we probably need to change what we xor together, when we make several layers, hm
16:35:31 <arseniiv> like one layer is ±1, the other is ±1 and ±2, the third is ±1 and ±2 and ±4
16:36:41 <arseniiv> so that list is more of a curio
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17:47:57 <esowiki> [[LongDick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81154 * Cybertelx * (+1340) Longest dick.
17:53:18 <esowiki> [[User:Cybertelx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81155&oldid=79204 * Cybertelx * (+94)
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18:23:24 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> I presume one can traverse the list in increments of ±1, …, ±(2^n − 1) by adding xor-link fields for increments of 2, 4 and so on?" => I don't think you can do that. even in theory.
18:23:39 <b_jonas> not even for just traversing an existing list.
18:24:41 <b_jonas> ah I see I'm slow, you already realized that
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18:52:33 <fizzie> I mean, you could go all the way using the skip links, you just couldn't transition into a smaller step size (without extra "conversion" links that'd probably defeat the point).
18:53:43 <fizzie> I imagine you could have a xor-linked list where every N'th node is a special "fat" node that has as extra fields one xor-linked list of the fat nodes, and one field holding (prev-fat ^ next-skinny) so that you can "step down", though.
18:54:19 <fizzie> (Or step up, if you're coming from the neighbouring skinny node.)
19:24:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. or just use a balanced tree.
19:25:05 <b_jonas> but I must admit, a skip list has some practicality
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20:48:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kefalonia * New user account
20:51:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81156&oldid=81153 * Kefalonia * (+211) Hello, I am Fotis. I'm behind Linux's Coffee Howto with SBN2 and I generally experiment with SBN2, SBN3 & SBN4 oisc models.
20:59:33 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81157&oldid=80733 * Kefalonia * (+231) explain SBN variants
21:00:42 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81158&oldid=81157 * Kefalonia * (+4) aka. subneg in a more readable place
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21:12:49 * int-e wonders whether Growing Space is NP-hard (what I've seen so far is in NP simply because the solution length is bounded by the level size)
21:13:47 <int-e> Room to Grow, I mean
21:16:41 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81159&oldid=74666 * Kefalonia * (+378) explaining sbn
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21:25:17 <shachaf> Interesting, that does limit it more than Sokoban.
21:25:52 <shachaf> I like the property that you can (mostly) read the transcript of the solution from a picture of the final state.
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21:58:14 <nakilon> 19:25:48 <arseniiv> TIL about a xor linked list
21:59:00 <nakilon> and about doing larger steps
21:59:39 <nakilon> there was one ICFPC about digging the ground and collecting the gold
22:00:53 <nakilon> the 1st place was taken by a team of one who was coding in C++ and he used such lists that had 2^n length links
22:01:11 <nakilon> or that wasn't even a list, that was a tree
22:01:56 <nakilon> idk how he decided how many steps back he needed but it was said that was an important optimizing thing
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22:13:45 <zzo38> I suppose so. I have not played the game, although I saw the animation, and I can see how the game is working.
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22:55:40 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81160&oldid=81159 * Kefalonia * (+291) provide URLs
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23:38:59 <zzo38> Do any ICFP contest winners using assembly language, or any programming language they make up themself, or any esoteric programming language? Has anyone used it without winning?
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00:15:55 <Sgeo> Got a weird PM again
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00:43:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:TheSingularity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81161 * Emerald * (+141) /* Help! */ new section
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04:17:18 <zzo38> How should be made a programming language for defining solitaire card games? I had a few ideas about it, but not all.
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05:21:32 <shachaf> zzo38: What are your ideas?
05:21:41 <HackEso> 179) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 208) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least.
05:22:03 <shachaf> Can your language express Sandwich - The Card Game and Professional Octopus of the World?
05:24:13 <zzo38> shachaf: You can define different kind of objects, including zones, games, and commands, and you can define rules such as movable and receivable for each zone, which are pure functions of the game and will be true or false, and events, and optionally global variables. For example, in Freecell, the free cells can each receive one card when empty. This might be "vac&:1" or maybe the syntax might differ.
05:25:06 <zzo38> If "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" are solitaire card games, then it is expected that they would be implementable. (It is OK if it uses a subset of the common deck, multiple decks, or a different deck such as a tarot deck; it is not limited to a common deck of cards.)
05:29:01 <zzo38> Do you have better ideas?
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06:11:05 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81162&oldid=81054 * Salpynx * (+620) /* Implementations */ Lazy K implementation, and alpha-sort sections
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08:13:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81163&oldid=81107 * Trump Bot * (+197)
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08:47:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81164&oldid=81163 * Trump Bot * (+188)
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09:33:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SansCipher * New user account
09:35:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81165&oldid=81156 * SansCipher * (+163) /* Introductions */
09:36:22 <esowiki> [[User:SansCipher]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81166 * SansCipher * (+75) Created page with "Things I like: Programming Obscure topics Things I don't like: Lists Irony"
09:37:16 <esowiki> [[User:SansCipher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81167&oldid=81166 * SansCipher * (+20)
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11:22:40 <wib_jonas> shachaf: "Sandwich" is one common word, so it is already used as the name of a card game: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/80933/sandwich . That's from 2012, when is the quote from?
11:29:53 <wib_jonas> The quote is revision 0, which is from 2012 where the HackEso repo in the live HackEso was cut, so it might precede that card game
11:30:13 <wib_jonas> "Professional Octopus of the World" is a good one, seems unused so far
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13:58:56 <shachaf> Well, the relevant name isn't "Sandwich", it's "Sandwich - The Card Game".
14:00:53 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is grammaphobic.
14:00:56 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is grammaphobic.
14:01:55 <wib_jonas> shachaf: makes sense, you could absolutely have a video game based on a real or fictional card game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" or perhaps even an anime based on a fictional card game called "Sandwich - The Card Game"
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15:53:42 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81168&oldid=80793 * Not applicable * (+258) add stupidpaint
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17:39:24 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81169&oldid=57025 * Zero player rodent * (+669)
17:40:29 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81170&oldid=81066 * Zero player rodent * (+21)
17:43:26 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81171&oldid=81169 * Zero player rodent * (-340)
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18:47:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JustJude * uploaded "[[File:Bread.png]]": An anatomically accurate image of a loaf bread
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19:24:19 <UstinLVO> Hello. Do you know any esolang whose character set is restricted to DEC SIXBIT? Except Brainfuck and similar Turing tarpits - I'm looking for something like GolfScript
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20:09:27 <int-e> shachaf: have you encountered 60 degree angles in Room to Grow?
20:11:02 <int-e> > (24+1+3+0+27+1+3+1+20, 24+1+5+1+31+1+5+1+38+1)
20:13:40 <int-e> (108 is the expected number of stars to earn... that I can see, maybe there are surprise levels somewhere)
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20:35:38 <arseniiv> things like “if (x == y) return x; else return NULL;” (say) make me unsuccesfully contemplating how to make the code truly symmetric with regard to x and y
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20:37:29 <UstinLVO> if (x == y) return (x | y); else return NULL;
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20:37:54 <arseniiv> UstinLVO: that won’t do for x, y of arbitrary type!
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20:38:54 <esolang5784937> Open esolang question: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/48349/is-this-variant-of-bitwise-cyclic-tag-turing-complete
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20:41:02 <arseniiv> there are inefficient variants like “xs = sort([x, y]); return len(xs) == 1 ? xs[0] : NULL” (btw that’s just a C-like syntax, I picked it for universality)
20:41:42 <arseniiv> oops that doesn’t work like I meant
20:41:51 <arseniiv> we need take something like set([x, y])
20:43:00 <arseniiv> this will be an actually good thing when there are arbitrarily many elements, and also it works as expected when there are 0 and 1 elements
20:43:22 <arseniiv> but for the special case of two or a handful of elements, well…
20:44:15 <arseniiv> I think maybe languages would be better to have some form of that thing as a primitive
20:48:39 <arseniiv> hm now that I think of it, by default there *is* asymmetry, x and y may be equal but have different representations, even if not observable by us in any way
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22:34:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81174&oldid=81165 * Arabica * (+66) /* Introductions */
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22:38:24 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81175 * Arabica * (+227) Created page with "I have made an EsoLang called "Eon". Classes are: name(args) -> propety = "This is how you make a class!, also tab indentation is important." Varibles Are name = value Fun..."
22:38:58 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81176&oldid=81175 * Arabica * (+12)
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22:42:49 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81178&oldid=81177 * Arabica * (+163)
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23:46:40 <shachaf> Nope, last new mechanic I saw was steps of different sizes.
23:47:26 <shachaf> I finished all of Forest but I think only about half of Mountain so far, and just a bit of Desert.
23:47:33 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, it's just a bit further in the desert.
23:47:44 <int-e> I finished Forest+ in the meantime.
23:48:21 <int-e> o the 3+0 is 5+1 now; the rest is unchanged
23:48:27 <shachaf> I haven't done any of that yet.
23:48:59 <int-e> anyway, it is a cute puzzle game
23:49:13 <int-e> not quite as epic as the monstrous one
23:49:22 <shachaf> arseniiv: i,i if let z = unify(x, y) return z; else return NULL;
23:50:29 <arseniiv> shachaf: this is good! I thought about something like this but didn’t came to think it’s actually just unification
23:50:54 <shachaf> Where by "unify" I mean, hmm, something that returns the value if both arguments are equal, otherwise fails.
23:51:06 <shachaf> So of course the implementation of unify still needs to do the thing you don't like.
23:51:23 <shachaf> Anyway introducing a new name is "symmetric" but seems worse to me than using x.
23:51:40 <arseniiv> <shachaf> So of course the implementation of unify still needs to do the thing you don't like. => yep that’s the catch too :(
23:52:08 <shachaf> I guess you can imagine this as a string diagram sort of thing, where unify takes two input and has one (unlabeled) output.
23:52:32 <shachaf> I guess that sort of corresponds to linear types, where unify consumes both its arguments, or something.
23:54:01 <shachaf> Anyway these are all bad answers.
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01:04:23 <zzo38> Do you ever make up your own puzzle games too?
01:12:59 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81179&oldid=79963 * Nailuj29 * (+9) add new website
01:13:26 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81180&oldid=81179 * Nailuj29 * (-4) im dumb
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03:24:35 <Sgeo> Attempting to use a Repl in an undocumented language from 1996 is not the easiest thing in the world
03:24:43 <Sgeo> I can't even figure out the #help command
03:25:02 <Sgeo> ? brings up help and says that #help does the same. #help doesn't work
03:42:54 <zzo38> What programming language is that?
03:47:41 <shachaf> Sgeo: Man, Ada has some pretty fancy features!
03:47:47 <shachaf> Why didn't you tell me about them sooner?
03:48:01 <shachaf> For example, in addition to having generic types, it has generic packages.
03:48:11 <shachaf> So you can parameterize an entire package on a type.
03:49:38 <Sgeo> zzo38, ActiveVRML
03:50:29 <kmc> oh wow VRML
03:50:32 <kmc> that's a blast from the past
03:51:16 <Sgeo> ActiveVRML is distinct from VRML. ActiveVRML was Microsoft's proposal for what VRML 2 should look like. It was rejected in favor of a proposal called "Moving Worlds"
03:52:08 <Sgeo> I ... think ActiveVRML's core concepts were eventually incorporated into Microsoft Chrome and Chromeffects, then Silverlight. Not sure though
03:52:27 <Sgeo> BTW there's a very good WebGL-based VRML viewer called X_ITE
03:54:11 <kmc> let me know if you ever find a copy of the "mmmm Yummy Schnitzel" VRML world
03:55:10 * Sgeo mentions that in Flashpoint discord
03:55:35 <Sgeo> I added 3 VRML plugins to Flashpoint, although someone else has been doing most VRML curations
03:55:48 <kmc> i wonder if i could ever find the HTML tutorial websites I made on Angelfire when I was in middle school
03:57:02 <kmc> what's Flashpoint?
03:58:15 <Sgeo> https://bluemaxima.org/flashpoint/ project that started to archive all Flash games and allow them to be played easily, has now branched out into a lot of various web techs
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04:05:06 <fizzie> Ooh, VRML (and derivatives).
04:05:37 <fizzie> There was an official VRML model of Helsinki at some point, I think, as part of some celebration of whatever.
04:06:47 <Sgeo> kmc https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/714335844940513342/817246501691981884/unknown.png ?
04:06:51 <fizzie> There was also a web chat site of a local radio station that didn't sanitize HTML in messages, so you could embed the virtual city in the chat, and it would pretty much obliterate all the lower-spec computers. Or something along those lines.
04:08:18 <kmc> Sgeo: looks right
04:08:30 <kmc> now is there a way for me to interact with it
04:08:32 <kmc> including audio
04:08:46 <fizzie> https://web.archive.org/web/19980210093427/http://www.xgw.fi/biz/arcussoft/vhki.htm -- over a megabyte!
04:15:08 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81181&oldid=74572 * Salpynx * (-3) /* Contemporary */ backslash to output expr register does not have to be in a string
04:23:36 <Sgeo> The audio wasn't archived. Would have been at http://www.vruniverse.com/vrml/schnitzel/schnitzel.wav
04:27:01 <Sgeo> Unless you have it in cache somewhere?
04:31:59 <Sgeo> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/459969018082754560/817252600108810260/Wiener_Schnitzel.7z
04:33:23 <Sgeo> This won't be in Flashpoint proper until after it updates, whenever that is (could be months from now), but you could import this into Flashpoint now. I don't know how well it works on non-Windows though. There is a support channel for it and I'm sure people played with WINE. Or you could extract the files and use a VRML viewer
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07:57:26 <zzo38> Are any solitaire card games including jokers?
08:10:32 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81183&oldid=80497 * ReplayShells * (+324)
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09:29:17 <shachaf> int-e: Oh man, this 60° angle thing is awful.
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09:37:33 <shachaf> Oh man. 24 is making this all wackadoodle.
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12:06:49 <int-e> shachaf: Ah you have surpassed me there... I went back to other areas, desert 21-23 are still unsolved
12:07:12 <shachaf> I assume you've done many more levels than I have, I was just curious about what's ahead.
12:11:12 <int-e> 87/108 is my count (including 5 stars from the level sets themselves)
12:11:41 <int-e> s/stars/potential stars/
12:12:29 <shachaf> I haven't done any Forest+ or anything+.
12:13:20 <shachaf> Too bad Steam and this game takes forever to start up.
12:19:17 <int-e> I have put over 6 hours into the game too
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13:02:19 <int-e> shachaf: Ah I see what you mean about 24 :)
13:02:44 <int-e> I guess it was to be expected
13:02:44 <shachaf> It looks like that's the point where the real puzzles start, or something.
13:03:32 <int-e> since the common theme among varying lengths and varying angles are arbitrary vectors
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13:04:27 <int-e> Hmm I didn't express that very well.
13:06:42 <shachaf> Next it'll have you solve lattice reduction problems.
13:20:39 <int-e> 25 did that already :P
13:21:19 <int-e> I've also noticed that you can push the cactus out of bounds... so it's no longer obvious that the puzzle is in NP.
13:21:52 <int-e> "bounds" being the border of the screen
13:23:03 <shachaf> Ah, interesting, I don't think I saw that yet.
13:24:26 <int-e> I think up to this point all puzzles have been fully enclosed
13:47:28 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81185&oldid=80493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+389) Implementation, Category
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14:35:13 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81186&oldid=81171 * Zero player rodent * (+19)
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17:20:13 <int-e> shachaf: okay, reached the end, finished Mountains{,+} and only 8 Desert levels left...
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23:47:14 <int-e> shachaf: All grown up, 108/108 stars :)
23:48:39 <int-e> 9.9h according to Steam
23:50:01 <int-e> shachaf: well, as mentioned before, every level and every level set shows a star when completed... there's no display of that number anywhere though.
23:54:08 <int-e> it's a surprisingly good puzzle game I find... if not the most difficult. It has a good difficulty curve, it allows progress without solving all puzzles and somehow it stopped before the puzzles felt repetetive.
23:55:14 <int-e> On the downside the growing process is hard to visualize so there's a lot of trial and error in favor of planning and thinking
23:55:48 <int-e> But maybe that's how it becomes less repetitive? Hard to say.
23:57:29 <shachaf> When the angles started getting wackadoodle I felt like I needed a lot of trial and error especially.
23:57:40 <shachaf> Just to know where the head lands after a few operations.
00:00:49 <int-e> yeah. though you can use vector addition to prune the search space a lot
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00:59:30 <int-e> (steam, not itch.io)
01:00:31 <int-e> (I found 3 games with that name in total)
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01:16:13 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81188&oldid=81184 * ReplayShells * (+104) Add HQ9+ short
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02:04:53 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81189&oldid=80958 * Digital Hunter * (+1353) /* Example programs */ added a square root calculator program
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02:43:04 <zzo38> I thought of other ideas about programming language for solitaire card game too, such as the possibility of static analysis, which can be used to classify open games, and possibly other things. If it is written as predicates for each zone, then it can also easily be checked that there are no more legal moves, or if there is more than one way to make a specific kind of move, just by trying each one.
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02:43:32 <zzo38> A specialized programming language also makes such things as save games, undo, etc, implementing more easily than using a general purpose programming language.
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05:09:40 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81190&oldid=77000 * Heavpoot * (-139)
05:09:49 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81191&oldid=81190 * Heavpoot * (+30)
05:25:28 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81192&oldid=81191 * Heavpoot * (+2497)
05:25:43 <esowiki> [[Macron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81193 * Heavpoot * (+26) Created page with "[[Macron]] does not exist."
05:26:11 <esowiki> [[Bee literally apioforming informational page]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81194 * Heavpoot * (+85) Created page with "[[Bee literally apioforming informational page]] is a WIP esolang documentation page."
05:35:12 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81195&oldid=79300 * Heavpoot * (+66) Undo revision 79215 by [[Special:Contributions/Int-e|Int-e]] ([[User talk:Int-e|talk]])
05:36:13 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81196&oldid=81195 * Heavpoot * (+1) remove osmarks.tk from existence and collective human memory retroactively, update to osmarks.net
05:41:10 <esowiki> [[Pig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81197&oldid=45995 * Heavpoot * (+169) categories
05:47:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81198&oldid=81164 * Heavpoot * (+136)
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05:54:58 <Heav> hello. is anyone here?
06:03:38 <zzo38> Do you have a better question?
06:06:40 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81199&oldid=81181 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Historical */ Fix typo copied from original source (Blog).
06:08:27 <Heav> no, only worse ones.
06:10:22 <kmc> that's too bad
06:28:11 <zzo38> I asked before about a level export format. Now I came up with this: http://sprunge.us/ZZugOV It isn't JSON or CSV, but it does seems a simple enough text based format. (The internal format for storing levels is different and much smaller files; this is just the export format. Also, the internal format has one field (the "level version" field) which is not present in the export format.)
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07:16:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81200&oldid=81198 * Trump Bot * (+174)
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08:18:11 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81201&oldid=81105 * Quintopia * (-35) bug fix thx jo king
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12:20:00 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81202&oldid=81126 * Smjg * (+0) /* Semantics of + */ sp
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13:53:20 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81203&oldid=76728 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Language overview */ Spacing
13:55:54 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81204&oldid=81203 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Language overview */ Why were there equal signs?
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05:48:16 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81205&oldid=80172 * Robolta * (+22) /* Overview */
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05:50:21 <zzo38> I think some time ago someone mentioned two dimensional regular expressions. I had thought of some ideas about that too, because I intended to add a similar feature into Free Hero Mesh.
05:58:36 <kmc> that's an interesting idea
05:58:39 <kmc> how does it work?
06:00:47 <zzo38> What I had is that it contains directions, which can be relative or absolute. It can also have loops and alternation like ordinary regular expressions, as well as some other things, such as callouts.
06:05:21 <zzo38> So, the basic idea is not so difference from one dimensional regular expressions, except that the match can be in any direction and can change directions too.
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12:42:10 <fizzie> Bleh. I've got this automated backup thing that reads org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.IdleHint and .IdleSinceHint to only run when the computer's been idle for at least two hours, but now it's somehow broken again and thinks it hasn't been idle since Feb 28.
12:42:18 <fizzie> I've been unable to find any real documentation how exactly "idleness" is measured.
12:43:54 <int-e> . o O ( maybe you need to set up a cron job that resets the idle counter )
12:45:06 * int-e knows nothing about this business.
12:45:37 <fizzie> It used to "just work", so I didn't bother trying to figure out how exactly it knows.
12:45:58 <fizzie> I think it's got something to do with logind "sessions".
12:47:46 <fizzie> There are per-session idle hints as well, and looks like I've got two active sessions, one of which says it's been non-idle since I woke up (fair enough), and the other which says it's been non-idle since Feb 27, so it's presumably that other session that's the problem.
12:49:18 <fizzie> Both of the sessions say they are "lightdm-xsession" sessions on the same display (:0). The okay-behaving one says it's in "active" state, but the other's in "closing" state.
12:49:46 <fizzie> So I guess that probably means there's some lingering process that got started in the "old" session that's keeping it alive.
12:51:23 <int-e> Hmm... loginctl show-session? Ah, unsurprisingly that hint shows my login time. :P
12:52:21 <int-e> (I just have a plain fvwm2 which I suspect is too old for this crap, or maybe would need some more gnome* stuff to support this.)
12:53:21 <fizzie> I've got a reasonably "plain" XMonad as well, but I think either xss-lock or xsecurelock does the necessary magic to mark it as idle when it's locked.
12:54:10 <fizzie> I imagine there's some way to see which processes are part of "session-2.scope", so I could figure out why that other session is still in "closing" state.
12:54:57 <fizzie> Ah, `systemctl status session-2.scope`
12:56:22 <fizzie> Shows there's a CGroup that contains `adb -L tcp:5037 fork-server server --reply-fd 4` in it. So I guess I did some adb stuff, then restarted X (I vaguely remember doing that for some reason), and that thing stayed there.
12:57:08 <fizzie> Yep, after `adb kill-server` the other session has now closed. Mystery solved, *and* complaining about it to IRC helped again.
12:59:01 <int-e> wait... where'd my xdm go
13:03:02 <int-e> there we go... systemctl said it got killed by SIGUSR2 on startup? and it didn't clean up its lock file, grmbl.
13:04:24 <int-e> but I bet xdm won't do anything about keeping track of idle states either :)
13:06:04 <int-e> Ah, but this way it's honest about it: IdleHint=no
13:06:05 <fizzie> Probably not. I think it's xss-lock doing it for me, for the record.
13:06:25 <int-e> Whereas before I guess it tracked activity in the shell where I did startx.
13:06:44 <int-e> (unsurprisingly, there was no such activity at all)
13:07:06 <fizzie> At least it's got a `static void logind_session_set_idle_hint(gboolean idle);` function in the code.
13:07:26 <fizzie> IdleHint is a boolean where false ("no"?) means "not idle". IdleSinceHint says when the IdleHint was last changed.
13:09:14 <int-e> I see. Okay, let's `watch` this while I get myself some food :)
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14:13:20 <int-e> Oh well, it's not idle yet.
14:13:52 <int-e> fizzie: arguably you should be checking all sessions. but it's also bad that that adb kept running
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14:57:27 <esowiki> [[Sploosh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81206&oldid=77677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Hello World example (or Jello Woqld, or Fello Wollf, or many other unpredictable results) */ Format; wbr
15:06:17 <esowiki> [[Sploosh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81207&oldid=81206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Some looping and array examples */ Format, wbr
15:13:44 <esowiki> [[Immi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81208&oldid=25976 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* what did (variable name) say? */ Format
15:15:22 <esowiki> [[Immi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81209&oldid=81208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Commands */ Format
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16:13:57 <fizzie> int-e: There's a "global" idle hint (/org/freedesktop/login1, org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.Idle(Since)Hint) that combines the information from all sessions; that's the one I'm checking. AFAICT it's idle iff all sessions are idle, that's why the state=closing session was blocking the backups.
16:14:53 <int-e> oh, I misunderstood then, I thought that session counted as idle
16:15:32 <fizzie> Nah, I think it only counts as idle if something explicitly sets it as idle, and there was nothing running in there that could.
16:16:12 <fizzie> Hmm, while the X session is idle because xss-lock sets it so, I wonder how/why SSH sessions become idle too. Because I've occasionally had an SSH session open for weeks/months, and the backups haven't stalled.
16:16:30 <int-e> so it's all adb's fault then for running in the background without dissociating itself from the session (do cgroups even allow that thoug; maybe not, it could easily break containers...)
16:17:15 <fizzie> It could stop the server when the session gets closed. I think some kind of a signal is even sent for that? But maybe it ignores that.
16:18:02 <int-e> The upshot is... I have a few pieces of these puzzles but no picture of how they fit together as a whole.
16:18:54 <fizzie> Same here. I opened a SSH session, and it's IdleHint = False, IdleSinceHint = time of login.
16:19:53 <fizzie> (Which makes sense, since what else could it be, but how's that not blocking the backups then?)
16:23:29 <fizzie> A random systemd github issue suggests logind detects idleness for sessions with a TTY by watching the mtime of the associated TTy device (!), so maybe it becomes idle if that crosses some threshold.
16:31:06 <fizzie> ...okay, I got sidetracked by all these other DBus interfaces that this graphical introspection tool (`d-feet`) is showing. I can see my mouse's battery charging level here!
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19:16:08 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81210&oldid=80374 * Not applicable * (+576) added notes
19:26:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Largejamie * New user account
19:28:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81211&oldid=81174 * Largejamie * (+117) /* Introductions */
19:29:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81212&oldid=81211 * Largejamie * (+89) /* Introductions */
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19:39:41 <fizzie> Yeah, that untouched SSH session had indeed become idle. And when I pressed a key in it, it became non-idle. So it does Just Work™ for TTY-type sessions.
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20:31:51 <int-e> and I guess it worked that way in UNIX times already... `who` displays idle times and I never wondered where it got those.
20:32:10 <int-e> but mtime of the tty makes a lot of sense
20:55:20 <zzo38> On my computer the idle column for "who" command just says "old"
21:05:46 <int-e> so... I *think* who assumes that c[hange]time = time of login, a[ccess]time = time of last input (so this corresponds to idle time), and m[odify]time = time of last output, when looking at a user's controlling pty
21:06:02 <int-e> and 'old' is printed when atime is before ctime.
21:07:56 <int-e> Hmm there are some oddities... like ^C not counting as an input. (I guess that's an ioctl, not a write)
21:08:30 <int-e> (I'm looking at a PTY, not a "real" tty)
23:12:05 <zzo38> Next thing to write in Free Hero Mesh is figuring out what is wrong with some levels involving the $SeekerCloser class in the FALLING puzzle set.
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01:05:16 <zzo38> I should thank Everett Kaser (although I doubt that he will read this) for implementing the message trace window, although it has some bugs, including the inability to use ALT+letters (even though the letters are underlined), the inability to print to a file (trying results in a division by zero error), and inability to see the MsgArg2 value (the horizontal scrolling limit is wrong, which hides it).
01:07:16 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81213&oldid=81187 * Zero player rodent * (+13)
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02:06:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Shakespeare keywords dictionary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81214 * Trump Bot * (+242) Created page with "Hey, I know you're gonna create this page, so I'm here to stp you. I'm not here for your entertainment. Ren non Descartes said: You don't think, therefore you are not. Thi..."
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06:25:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Mornington Crescent keywords dictionary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81215 * Trump Bot * (+54) New Trump group member at the Conwaylife.com forums
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06:34:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81216&oldid=76168 * Trump Bot * (+549) Help
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11:25:54 <ais523> [[e:User:Trump Bot]] is a troll, right?
11:26:06 <ais523> * https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Trump_Bot
11:26:35 <ais523> I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don't seem to be here for constructive esolang-related posts
11:26:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81217&oldid=81216 * Ais523 * (-549) Undo revision 81216 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]): this website is about esolangs, you don't seem to be here to talk about those?
11:27:47 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81218&oldid=81182 * Ais523 * (-149) Undo revision 81182 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]): probably not a constructive edit
11:29:38 <nakilon> ais523 you could program with american presidents
11:30:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81219 * Ais523 * (+656) warning
11:30:58 <nakilon> one reverses the sequences/arrays, another one destroys things, another one builds
11:32:16 <nakilon> because they all make side effects all over the place
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12:38:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Shakespeare keywords dictionary]]": userspace page not created by the owner of the userspace / without the permission of the owner of the userspace
12:38:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Mornington Crescent keywords dictionary]]": userspace page not created by the owner of the userspace / without the permission of the owner of the userspace
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13:10:17 <esowiki> [[Bee literally apioforming informational page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81220&oldid=81194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Stub/WIP/Language
13:14:48 <esowiki> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81221&oldid=81145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) Cats, stub
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16:22:48 <esowiki> [[Built-out]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81222 * Bo Tie * (+913) Created page with "'''Built-out''' is a stack-based work-in-progress esoteric programming language created by [[User:Bo Tie]] that appears to have built-ins, but doesn't. == Commands == Before..."
16:26:11 <esowiki> [[Built-out]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81223&oldid=81222 * Bo Tie * (+62) Interpreter
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18:05:20 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:15:31 <ais523> you mean 1228, not 1128
18:17:36 <ais523> typoing/thinkoing an xxy pattern as xyy or vice versa seems to be one of the most common mistakes when trying to copy down arbitrary strings of characters/digits
18:25:37 <APic> That is probably the Reason why xyzzy is the magic Word in ADVENT
18:34:13 <ais523> one theory that I've seen is that it's part of a mnemonic for calulating the cross product
18:34:25 <ais523> (the x component of the result is y1z2-z1y2)
18:34:32 <zzo38> Yes, I read that too
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20:40:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81224&oldid=79658 * Heavpoot * (+368) Added new server
20:41:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81225&oldid=81224 * Heavpoot * (+8) Added word "current"
20:48:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81226&oldid=81219 * Heavpoot * (+162)
20:53:42 <esowiki> [[3x]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81227&oldid=77941 * Heavpoot * (+107) Categories
20:55:36 <esowiki> [[3x]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81228&oldid=81227 * Heavpoot * (-3) I think this is turing complete, actually.
21:00:15 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81229&oldid=81192 * Heavpoot * (-15) updation
21:01:14 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81230&oldid=76829 * Heavpoot * (+0)
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21:46:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81231&oldid=58893 * Heavpoot * (+154)
22:08:01 <esowiki> [[Interlude]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3309) Add Interlude
22:08:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81233&oldid=81082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* I */ +[[Interlude]]
22:08:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81234&oldid=81231 * Fizzie * (+886) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ Opinions.
22:08:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81235&oldid=80717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Languages */ +[[Interlude]]
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22:09:33 <heavpoot> i can't exactly tell their motive.
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22:34:34 <fizzie> I have no idea either. The comment with the link to the conwaylife.com forums was pretty odd. If it's *actually* a piece of software, it's an odd one.
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01:05:11 <zzo38> Hello, what question today?
01:06:42 <Guest56_> Nice to see you around here, I didn't know you were on esoteric as well. I ocassionally read your posts on the Usenet. Is Sqlnetnews still being maintained?
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01:07:56 <zzo38> Mostly I am working on a different project (Free Hero Mesh) at this time, although later I may work on sqlnetnews more. If you have any contributions or suggeations, then you may write where I may read them.
01:08:52 <zzo38> It is a puzzle game engine, for grid-based puzzle games such as sokoban and Hero Hearts.
01:09:20 <Guest56_> Sounds intresting - is it avaliable for download or something?
01:10:04 <zzo38> It is also meant to be compatible with puzzles from Everett Kaser's Hero Mesh (once they are converted), although it also has many new features too (including dynamic types, higher limits, etc).
01:10:27 <zzo38> Guest56_: There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui
01:11:15 <zzo38> It is in a state ready for testing, although it isn't close to complete yet.
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01:16:45 <zzo38> For now, I am trying to figure out what is causing some levels of the FALLING puzzle set with the $SeekerCloser class to not work properly.
01:22:24 <Guest56_> FYI: I am maintaning my own logs of this channel, alongside the ones above
01:22:26 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any comments, suggestions, bug reports, etc.
01:23:26 <Guest56_> I will check your think out zzo
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02:06:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81236&oldid=81123 * Trump Bot * (+790)
02:07:21 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81237&oldid=79175 * Sertdfyguhi * (+16) /* esolangs I made */
02:08:10 <esowiki> [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81238&oldid=79172 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:08:40 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81239&oldid=79181 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:09:06 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81240&oldid=79323 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:09:25 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81241&oldid=81237 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:20:09 <nakilon> IRL pixel art language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufic
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05:11:46 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81242&oldid=81218 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+96)
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07:21:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81243&oldid=81200 * Trump Bot * (+256) I sneezed by accident while posting and I can't delete it
07:22:00 <nakilon> this one reminds me the game on ipad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqNockPqPBg
07:22:42 <nakilon> there were wires and signals going through them by similar rules
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08:45:31 <zzo38> O, and there is a mirror of the Fossil repository for Free Hero Mesh at http://chiselapp.com/user/zzo38/repository/freeheromesh in case you need it
09:03:30 <nakilon> temp.c:8:5: warning: implicit declaration of function 'timespec_get' is invalid in C99
09:04:02 <nakilon> why doesn't cc agree to use the C11? it seems to understand the flag but the warning says...
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09:10:32 <nakilon> the same error with the snippet from https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/chrono/timespec_get while there on page their snippet runner compiles it fine with clang c11
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09:12:35 <nakilon> and when I press the "Share" button to get this link https://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/view?id=e84b765e6e9eb6d3and copy the command line from there I get the same error
09:12:48 <nakilon> I guess it's smth with my compiler but I didn't touch it...
09:14:19 <nakilon> they have clang 5.0 while mine is Apple LLVM version 10.0.1 (clang-1001.0.46.4) though and I don't know a shit about how do they correlate
09:49:20 <shachaf> MADV_FREE is a kind of bizarre API.
09:49:42 <shachaf> It should probably be set up to that either reads or writes give you the page, not just writes.
09:50:10 <shachaf> As it is you can have the odd behavior that you read a value from memory that's nominally available, and then you wait a while, and the value is different.
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11:01:23 <fizzie> nakilon: The "implicit declaration -- invalid in C99" warning (in Clang) is badly worded, and really just means "invalid *since* C99". But I don't know the actual cause of your problem; with my Clang, -std=c11 successfully adds timespec_get to the declarations from <time.h>, it just still gives the same warning for actually unknown names.
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13:24:40 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81244&oldid=79641 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Fix name
13:25:34 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81245&oldid=81244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Registers */ l->n
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18:38:03 <oren> what is the difference between aleatoric and stochastic
18:42:26 <int-e> . o O ( aleatoric sounds more musical. also I had to look it up. )
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19:18:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81246&oldid=81189 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Reverse cat */
19:19:16 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81247&oldid=81246 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ silly me. two-params are still confusing
19:20:28 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81248&oldid=81247 * Digital Hunter * (-49) /* FizzBuzz */ shorter one
19:21:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81249&oldid=81248 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* FizzBuzz */ oops
19:21:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81250&oldid=81249 * Digital Hunter * (-187) /* FizzBuzz */ oops oops
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22:24:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81251&oldid=81236 * Ais523 * (-790) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
22:25:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Trump Bot]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled, email disabled): looks like this user is just here to troll / advertise other forums, not to post constructively; temporary block to give them a chance to cool down / improve, but I'm not hopeful
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22:39:16 <ais523> shachaf: MADV_FREE is, in effect, basically "make it so that reading from any address in this range before it is next written is undefined behaviour"
22:39:29 <ais523> (which is a useful thing to do to allow the kernel to optimise the use of the physical memory backing it)
22:39:49 <ais523> but, you can't have *actual* undefined behaviour at the user/kernel interface because that might lead to security bugs, so instead they document the possible behaviours
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22:40:24 <shachaf> There's a particular claim someone made that they read a zero at the beginning of the page, wrote to the page, and then read a nonzero from the same place.
22:40:32 <shachaf> Which is a situation I'm skeptical about.
22:41:20 <ais523> I think that a) the API definition should allow that as a possible sequence of events in theory, but b) there is no reason to implement the kernel in such a way that that sequence of events would happen in practice
22:41:39 <shachaf> Anyway, why not have it set up so that either a read or a write faults, and keeps the page as-is?
22:41:47 <ais523> with the possible exception of kernel builds on which non-zeroed memory can be allocated
22:42:22 <ais523> shachaf: modifying page tables is expensive, even taking into account the length of time a system call takes
22:42:23 <shachaf> As far as I can tell that should only affect people who read from "uninitialized" memory, making the system more predictable, at no particular cost to anyone else.
22:42:33 <shachaf> Aren't they modifying the page tables anyway?
22:42:35 <ais523> but I guess they need to be modified regardless so that you can detect writes
22:43:34 <ais523> (Linux has an API for allocating uninitialized memory, but it's normally ifdeffed out by default for security reasons, and is only really there for high-performance embedded systems which don't care about security between processes)
22:44:24 <shachaf> Yes. But I don't think that's the situation here.
22:45:10 <shachaf> A person is saying, maybe this is a dirty page allocated by the same process, and therefore it doesn't contain zeros, but you can still get it without a security problem.
22:45:17 <shachaf> But I don't think Linux does anything like that.
22:45:37 <shachaf> Other than MADV_FREE, I mean, which only works this way if you keep the page in place.
22:46:17 <ais523> MADV_FREE isn't an allocation API, it's a deallocation API
22:47:26 <shachaf> Well, you can think of it either way.
22:47:54 <shachaf> It's sort of an optimized version of mmapping a new anonymous page at the same address.
22:48:35 <ais523> my favourite madvise option is MADV_HUGEPAGE which seems to actually have a noticeable performance impact in some programs
22:49:07 <ais523> and yet basically nothing uses it
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22:49:24 <ais523> it makes vmsplice(2) noticeably faster, but nobody uses vmsplice either
22:49:31 <shachaf> Last time I really tried to use huge pages for performance, you had to use hugetlbfs, I think.
22:49:42 <shachaf> And as I remember it didn't make much of a difference. But maybe I wasn't careful enough.
22:50:09 <shachaf> vmsplice is only for pipes, right?
22:50:38 <ais523> huge pages make pagewalks faster (most notably, recovering from a TLB flush, but some memory management operations make the kernel pagewalk)
22:50:59 <ais523> but they force memory management operations to have a larger granularity, so when you're using them, you have to be very careful to avoid anything that might cause a page copy
22:51:05 <ais523> otherwise you lose all your performance advantage
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22:52:11 <ais523> something I've discovered recently is that the way to optimise I/O from the writer's point of view depends a lot on what is reading the data, and how it's being read
22:52:29 <ais523> in particular, whether the data is going to be read out of your L1/L2/L3 cache or not
22:53:12 <ais523> if it isn't then it makes most sense to stream the data directly to the physical memory that's going to back the kernel's view of it (using mmap for files and vmsplice for pipes, plus nontemporal writes)
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23:00:46 <shachaf> Yes, but this was in a situation that should have benefited from huge pages (a database that managed its own cache).
23:03:52 <ais523> I actually think the largest benefits would be for, e.g., the memory backing large linked lists
23:04:15 <ais523> basically anything that makes a complete mockery of caches
23:04:45 <ais523> if something is cache-efficient then there won't be a large gain for hugepages because the TLB would be generally working pretty quickly anyway, so there isn't much to optimise
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23:05:06 <ais523> (other than recovery from TLB flushes, which I think the kernel does a pretty good job of reducing the frequency of nowadays)
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01:20:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81252&oldid=81225 * LyricLy * (-376) Remove inactive Discord server (with blessing of its owner)
01:26:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Citrons * New user account
01:30:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81253&oldid=81212 * Citrons * (+118) h
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03:47:36 <zzo38> Next in the GURPS game I play, we are against someone who can control time and (usually) avoid all of our attacks. I thought to destroy the tower, but I don't have any means to do so.
03:48:11 <zzo38> I thought to use area attacks or explosives to hurt him, but I don't have any. But now I thought to make some sort of temporal paradox, maybe.
03:49:08 <zzo38> Ziveruskex is a mathematician (and rather advanced for his time), so might be able to do something. Do you know?
03:51:56 <zzo38> I don't know. (If I knew, then I might know how to supress his power, too.) But, he had been able to skip time in order to move faster (without actually increasing his velocity or teleporting), force us backward (a kind of involuntary mental time travel, I suppose), get more turns than us, and he once managed to disappear while stunned.
04:08:31 <nakilon> another guy (who codes in c++ all his life) has no idea either
04:08:56 <nakilon> and compilers on this machine never malfunctioned -- homebrew and stuff works fine
04:09:21 <nakilon> I suppose they do some configuration that not everyone knows about
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05:06:10 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81254&oldid=81242 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+3112) Fixed link and added more code
05:11:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81255&oldid=78503 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+283) Added two links
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06:34:48 <nakilon> one guy at SO had no problem with timespec_get
06:34:58 <nakilon> another one says it never worked "because clang sucks"
06:36:11 <nakilon> so 1. docs say it's ok 2. online compiler says ok 3. two guys say ok 4. one says "it never worked" 5. and it does not work for me
06:36:41 <nakilon> the (4) guy says "you didn't have the problem of compiling such programs because no one uses this function", lol
06:41:21 <nakilon> I wonder if "clock_gettime(CLOCK_REALTIME" is an equivalent replacement
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07:09:20 <zzo38> In the software I was working on, I have been unable to figure out what is causing a specific problem. I have managed to eliminate some things, but still have not quite figured it out. Even worse, I probably do not have permission to redistribute the test cases.
07:22:14 <nakilon> some to Russia -- intellectual property and security is a joke here
07:25:11 <nakilon> porn movies pirating hackers broke into our Jenkins -- I've found the clues, documented vulnerability, updated the Jenkins, removed their forged user account
07:26:01 <nakilon> told the boss/CTO that the private Github key was exposed, and he should press the button to issue the new one and copy it to Jenkins or give me so I'll copy it
07:26:45 <nakilon> he said 'oh yeah, sure", the same on the next day, and on the next, and after a week, and month, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't even going to just press a single button to make a new key
07:27:29 <nakilon> and that was the company with the most serious attitude to security among all the places I worked at, lol
07:27:47 <nakilon> 10:22:13 <nakilon> some to Russia
07:27:55 <zzo38> Well, you could purchase the test cases from Everett Kaser, although I don't know if their 32-bit Hero Mesh format is compatible with my software, or if they have changed the levels to difference
07:29:30 <zzo38> I don't know how to speak/write Russion
07:30:13 <zzo38> (I know someone who does know how to speak Russian, but not to read/write it)
07:30:37 <nakilon> lol, how's that possible? to speak and not read?
07:31:04 <LKoen> ...isn't speaking much easier than reading?
07:31:23 <LKoen> children only learn reading at about 6 year old, but can learn to speak many years before that
07:31:52 <nakilon> idk, I guess we were learning to speak and talk English in the same age
07:32:05 <zzo38> Well, you can know some language only for speaking but not reading, or only reading but not speaking. She can speak Russian fine (not only slurs), but not read/write. She can read/write English and French though, as well as speaking those languages.
07:32:28 <LKoen> if you're learning a second language that uses the same alphabet as yours, learning reading and speaking at the same time can be easier because you can use written material
07:32:28 <nakilon> maybe only the "my name is" was the thing we were taught before reading but that can't be called a "speaking"
07:33:03 <LKoen> but if you're learning a language with a different alphabet, you'll find speaking can be much easier than reading
07:33:04 <nakilon> Russian and English are different alphabets
07:33:26 <zzo38> Yes, they are; Russian uses the Cyrillic alphabet.
07:35:08 <nakilon> I can't learn how to write the word "Cyrillic" because it uses the same "i" sound three times and while in Russian it's always written the same way in English it's "i", "y", "ee", "ea"...
07:36:47 <zzo38> Yes, the English spelling is messy like that
07:37:36 <nakilon> another word that I'll never learn: necessary
07:38:06 <zzo38> (Although, if you use more English rather than French words, you could write better with runes, although even then a few words might not match spelling/pronounce, such as "one" and "two".)
07:45:36 <zzo38> In GURPS game, the rules say your character can know speaking a language and reading/writing a language separately, so my character (whose name is Ziveruskex) can speak and read/write English, but only read/write Latin and Greek. (Trying to pronounce Latin words is possible, but will likely be all wrong; if you are not speaking fluently, you will not understand quickly enough what others are saying either, I think.)
07:47:05 <nakilon> 'Ziveruskex' sounds like Zverushka in Russian that means "a small cute beast"
07:47:40 <zzo38> O, that is a coincidence, and now I know some word in Russian.
07:49:41 <nakilon> Ewoks from Star Wars are zverushki
07:50:07 <zzo38> (The name was actually made up using a computer program which just randomly puts groups of letters together and then deduplicates consecutive doubles or triples.)
07:50:40 <nakilon> also an old cartoon character https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheburashka can be classified as zverushka and you see that suffixes are similar
07:52:00 <nakilon> "durak" meaning "fool" can be called "durashka" if you want to tell him that he's a fool but you have no negative attitude to it
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08:51:26 <nakilon> oh finally I defeated the C
08:51:28 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol0enAM-fFE
08:51:55 <nakilon> I mean those time functions
08:52:33 <nakilon> emulated two threads -- one for evolution and one for emiting the frames because stupid ffmpeg can't dup frames to fill the framerate gaps
08:54:18 <nakilon> restarted with reduced frequency of random mutations
08:56:39 <nakilon> weird black lines on right and bottom borders -- ffmpeg is also stupid in rescaling, and I had to convert from b/w to colors otherwise rescaling was making it all green, lol
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09:16:49 <nakilon> oh finally three mutations connected, resulting in something more continuous
09:26:32 <nakilon> 12% CPU and 50MB of RES for ffmpeg, 2.7% of CPU for C -- hopefully can be launched on a server; the only issue is that in 3 weeks there will be an integer overflow in those time routines
10:15:01 <b_jonas> "<ais523> my favourite madvise option is MADV_HUGEPAGE which seems to actually have a noticeable performance impact in some programs" => hopefully less and less, as the kernel gets smarter in automatically deciding about hugepages
10:15:58 <b_jonas> "<ais523> huge pages make pagewalks faster (most notably, recovering from a TLB flush," => also occupies fewer space in the TLB, so it can cache more, right?
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12:41:09 <esowiki> [[Lemane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81256 * OsmineYT * (+198) Created page with "<div style="font: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 48px; text-align: center; background-image: repeating-linear-gradient(180deg, yellow 30%, black 40%); color: light-gray;">U..."
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12:48:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * OsmineYT * moved [[Lemane]] to [[LeMane]]: Wrong title capitalization
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13:14:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81259&oldid=81255 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* External resources */ Remove useless URL escape
13:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:LeMane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81260 * OsmineYT * (+164) Created page with "<div id="head" style="cursor: grab;" ondrag="d = document.getElementById('head'); d.style.cursor = 'grabbed'; d.innerHTML = 'Easter egg!';">Under construction</div>"
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13:54:30 <esowiki> [[Interlude]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81261&oldid=81232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) /* Dice roll */ Add example
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14:38:31 <ais523> b_jonas: at least on Intel processors, there are actually three separate TLBs, one for each size of page; the 2MiB-page-TLB can generally map a lot more addrecesses than the 4KiB-page-TLB though because it contains a comparable number of entries and each page is so much larger
14:39:02 <ais523> as for automatically deciding about hugepages, Linux doesn't appear to do that at all at the moment
14:39:25 <ais523> if you check to see how many huge pages are in use, it generally tells me 0 except when I'm running a program that explicitly MADV_HUGEPAGEs
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15:27:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qh4os * New user account
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15:34:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81262&oldid=81253 * Qh4os * (+211)
15:36:45 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81263&oldid=80004 * Qh4os * (+38) /* Implementation */ there should be an integer argument for each '%d' in the format string
16:06:18 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but does the cpu need to create entries in the 4k TLB cache lazily for hugepages, entries that don't exist in memory but are autogenerated, or can it just look up addresses directly with the 2MB cache? if the latter, then that's a win for programs that do a lot of random access read on more memory than the 2KB page TLB can support.
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16:06:33 <b_jonas> I hope it's the latter, but I can't be sure
16:07:11 <b_jonas> no automatic huge pages at the moment => ok, I see
16:14:20 <int-e> I'd think that there are enough applications with huge memory maps that warrant full HW support for 2MB pages... no crappy simulation through 4kb pages.
16:52:46 <int-e> oh... https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Intel-i7-nehalem-cpu,2041-11.html "The level 1 data TLB now stores 64 entries for small pages (4K) or 32 for large pages (2M/4M), while the level 1 instruction TLB stores 128 entries for small pages (the same as with Core 2) and seven for large pages."
17:00:07 <int-e> So there are separate TLBs for the top page table levels and the last level and they've arranged for large pages to not conflict with small ones, hmm. Fun.
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21:39:30 <esowiki> [[Interlude]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81264&oldid=81261 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+113) /* Commands */ Clarification
21:44:36 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81265&oldid=74390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreter */ Wayback
21:46:43 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81266&oldid=81265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-25) Undo revision 81265 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) m
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23:07:27 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81267 * Hakerh400 * (+5912) +[[DriftLang]]
23:07:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81268&oldid=81233 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[DriftLang]]
23:07:34 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81269&oldid=80993 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[DriftLang]]
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00:00:41 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81270&oldid=81267 * Hakerh400 * (+1606)
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08:28:56 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81271&oldid=81125 * Kekcsi * (+350)
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10:46:34 <esowiki> [[Main Page/2 Bits, 1 Byte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81272 * Gilbert189 * (+1919) Created page with "2 Bits, 1 Byte is an assembly language for a 2-bit CPU, made by [[User:Gilbert189]]. With 1 byte of memory, this machine could store at least 2 instructions. == Operations ==..."
10:47:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Gilbert189 * moved [[Main Page/2 Bits, 1 Byte]] to [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]]: why put thus into main page
12:35:01 <esowiki> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81275&oldid=81273 * Hakerh400 * (+587) Add interpreter and Quine
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15:22:23 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81276&oldid=81057 * 1hals * (-251) remove "self interpreter" because it is wrong
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20:20:09 <esowiki> [[LeMane/temprules]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81277 * OsmineYT * (+26) Created page with "rules for LeMane also temp"
20:20:30 <esowiki> [[LeMane/temprules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81278&oldid=81277 * OsmineYT * (+1)
20:31:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:LeMane/temprules]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81279 * Nailuj29 * (+49) Created page with "Nailuj29: Is this necessary, we have the discord."
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20:53:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Minion3665 * New user account
20:57:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81280&oldid=81262 * Minion3665 * (+271) /* Introductions */
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21:01:31 <esowiki> [[UwU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81281&oldid=70227 * Minion3665 * (-10) Fix the ~w~ and w on the table (perhaps they were copied from Ook!?)
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21:35:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Main Page/2 Bits, 1 Byte]]": redirect from unlikely typo (I mean, it happened, but it's still an unlikely typo)
21:37:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Em3]]": userfied by author (to [[User:Emerald/sandbox#em3]]); removing the resulting cross-namespace redirect
21:41:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81282&oldid=80342 * Ais523 * (+839) /* Your empty pages */ new section
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01:54:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81283&oldid=81226 * Trump Bot * (+23)
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05:08:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81284&oldid=81252 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+315) Added LifeWiki forum links. Not sure if useful.
06:08:27 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81285 * 1hals * (+1541) create page
06:11:23 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81286&oldid=81285 * 1hals * (+254) add math to examples and explain more
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06:14:32 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81287&oldid=81286 * 1hals * (+37) add WIP note
06:17:05 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81288&oldid=81287 * 1hals * (+20)
06:23:41 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81289&oldid=81288 * 1hals * (+18) +2021
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11:36:19 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81290&oldid=80608 * Gilbert189 * (+21)
12:14:56 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81291&oldid=81046 * Gilbert189 * (+59) /* General languages */
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14:42:38 <fizzie> "Website https://esolangs.org/ security certificate expires soon (2.231561476999998e+06 seconds)."
14:42:41 <fizzie> I think the formatting of my alerts leaves a little to be desired, but at least it told me. (It's supposed to renew via cron, but I guess it's broken again.)
14:46:11 <fizzie> Wonder what's up with that. It isn't the thing that was wrong once before, which was mixing up the minute/hour fields of crontab and trying to run it on the 37th hour of the day.
15:04:41 <nakilon> "expires soon (2.231561476999998e+06 seconds)." -- reminded me the old sub /r/totallynotrobots
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16:08:34 <fizzie> I think I set it to start complaining at 30d and have been ignoring it for a few days already.
16:08:53 <fizzie> The script itself succeeded again, for some reason cron's just not running it.
16:11:38 <fizzie> (It's one of those normal Let's Encrypt 3-month certificates, and I set up my own scripts because certbot was kind of rudimentary at the time, so instead of the "run often and renew only when less than a month left" model I've got a "force-renew once a month model". Or would have it cron would behave. It works on all other machines, weird.)
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17:12:00 <int-e> fizzie: I see... I have one certbot setup and one script around acme-tiny, but with working cron.
17:12:25 <int-e> (the acme-tiny thing came first)
17:15:17 <fizzie> Hmm, well. `journalctl -u cron` says "Logs begin at Mon 2021-03-08", and it's supposed to run on every 7th day of the month, so I guess I won't see if something went wrong there. It's running the other /etc/cron.d/ files just fine. Weird.
17:16:44 <fizzie> The cron.d file just says "1 2 7 * * letsencrypt /var/local/letsencrypt/letsencrypt-cron.sh" and doing "sudo -u letsencrypt /var/local/letsencrypt/letsencrypt-cron.sh" successfully renews the certificates.
17:17:26 <int-e> hmm but the environment may be different, including $PATH
17:17:38 <int-e> but then you should get mails?
17:17:50 <fizzie> Yeah. Unless there's something wrong with mail delivery from this system.
17:19:53 <fizzie> But I've gotten other emails from the system, so it would be specifically cron that's not sending mail right.
17:20:10 <int-e> or does the letsencrypt user get those mails?
17:21:04 <int-e> which would be stupid... but somewtimes things are stupid
17:21:32 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe? I thought I had all role accounts aliased to root and then to me, but that one isn't.
17:21:48 <fizzie> Yeah, you might have got it.
17:22:17 <fizzie> Checking an earlier cron email from a different system, it's indeed "To: letsencrypt@<anotherhost>.zem.fi".
17:23:27 <fizzie> Yeah, that user has 26 emails from cron.
17:24:35 <fizzie> Uh, and all those emails say it successfully renewed... oh, wait a minute, maybe it's renewing the cert but failing to reload the web server, because it's missing a sudoers rule to allow it to do that.
17:29:21 <int-e> heh, I seem to have two stages... one to get a new certificate, and one that runs as root, copies nthe certificates, and restarts the webserver
17:32:58 <int-e> not the cleanest approach
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18:26:57 <fizzie> What I ended up with is, the whole thing runs as 'letsencrypt', there's POSIX filesystem ACLs that allow it to write to the specific cert files in /etc/ssl/letsencrypt/... and sudoers.d rules that allow it to run the specific reload commands.
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19:14:25 <Sgeo> Why was I convinced that PL/I was a database thing?
19:14:53 <Sgeo> Oh PL/SQL. Names too similar
19:19:09 <Sgeo> ". The PDP-7, however, did have a few `auto-increment' memory cells, with the property that an indirect memory reference through them incremented the cell. "
19:19:12 <Sgeo> ??? what. Weird.
19:21:00 <int-e> no less weird than Intel's movs/cmps/scas
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19:22:49 <int-e> uh, I mean "no more", don't I :P
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19:36:35 <myname> auto-increment registers are nice
20:01:03 <fizzie> But of course auto-increment registers with a circular buffer modulo support are extra-nice, and bit-reversed auto-increment registers are the nicest.
20:01:27 <kmc> bit-reversed?
20:03:03 <fizzie> DSPs (or at least some; I know the TMS320C54x does) have this thing where you can increment an address register and it'll do the carry bit the wrong way around.
20:03:10 <fizzie> It's to save instructions when doing a FFT.
20:03:35 <int-e> yeah, FFT was my guess
20:03:58 <int-e> you'll need normal autoincrement registers as well
20:05:32 <fizzie> It does those as well, of course. And for the bit-reversed mode, you'll need to dedicate AR0 (out of the 8 address registers, AR0..AR7) to holding a bitmask that defines the size of the FFT.
20:07:02 <fizzie> I've only used a DSP for one tiny university project, and didn't get to use the bit-reversed addressing mode, but at least I got to use the circular buffer one.
20:12:58 <b_jonas> I have this old one-instruction language with a memory of words where the instruction is like m[2] = 0 <= (m[m[m[0]++]] -= m[m[m[0]++]]); (but with less undefined behavior from modifying the same cell twice in a statement), only I only ever wrote one small program for it, and that one is buggy. so this has not only the program counter memory-mapped to m[0] but also a comparison flag mapped to m[2]
20:13:22 <b_jonas> and the comparison flag has the value of 0 and 1 so that you can conveniently use it as a conditional goto, or an unconditional goto after you zero a cell
20:13:53 <b_jonas> (there's also some IO mapped to memory)
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20:40:13 <arseniiv_> I was displeased with Thue—Morse sequence and invented my own
20:40:29 <arseniiv_> it starts 01000111111010111110010000011001111001000001111000010110000101100110010000011110000101100001010100010110000100010001110100011100…
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20:45:23 <arseniiv> the rule is not too complicated: S(0) = 0, S(n+1) = S(n) ++ ((S(n) + 1) | (S(n) cshr 1)), where + is addition modulo 2^|S(n)| (it shouldn’t overflow when starting with S(0) = 0, though!), | is bitwise or and cshr is cyclical right shift
20:46:14 <arseniiv> I tried simpler rules but they give repeat-ish sequences, which is what I was displeased about the original one
20:48:04 <int-e> shouldn't that start as... 0,01,0110
20:48:46 <int-e> maybe you used xor where you wrote or
20:49:56 <int-e> and it indeed cannot overflow becaus S(n) always starts with 0.
20:50:11 <arseniiv> my design was that if I take & or |, 0s or 1s will overgrow the sequence further to the right
20:51:09 <arseniiv> yep, though I think it’d be good to look at S(0) = 1 and other strings, also I need to take that and fetch it to some statistical tests to know how it looks overall
20:51:43 <int-e> I don't like it... the +1 has very limited effect
20:52:36 <arseniiv> I didn’t come up with anything better and simply calculated in a couple of minutes
20:53:24 <arseniiv> any suggestions! We need more jointly named made-up sequences!
20:55:44 <arseniiv> (υ was picked as a sorta middle ground between v and u)
21:00:34 <int-e> S(0) = 1 hmm. 1 1 11 1111....
21:02:41 <arseniiv> yep, (all units + 1) is all zeros, and all units shifted is all units, so xor is all units again. Ow ow
21:04:13 <arseniiv> int-e: how do you thing, is there a place to concatenate two sequences of differing lengths? What could we do to them to make lengths different (in the general case)?
21:04:55 <arseniiv> one might skip particular subsequences but that’s too picky and expensive to compute
21:05:35 <arseniiv> (when using ordinary unbounded integers for sequences)
21:07:40 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81292&oldid=80606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* New keywords */ cats
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21:12:59 <int-e> arseniiv: sorry I can't get excited about this
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22:41:05 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81293&oldid=81103 * RetroPain * (+7) /* Simple Pain Instuctions */
22:49:02 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81294&oldid=81293 * RetroPain * (+139) /* List of Instuctions */
22:49:27 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81295&oldid=81294 * RetroPain * (+2) /* List of Instuctions */
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00:37:16 <zzo38> The following Free Hero Mesh code http://sprunge.us/tfgIMq seems to not being interpreted correctly (either that or the original has a bug causing it to be interpreted incorrectly, but the behaviour differs either way). This seems to be the only code that isn't working. This is the only code that uses the Delta instruction, but I tested that and that doesn't seem to be the problem.
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01:19:07 <TannerSwett[m]> 1. If multiple rules can be applied, the one which occurs earliest in the program is the one which is applied. (If a single rule can be applied in multiple different ways, that's still unspecified.)
01:19:14 <TannerSwett[m]> 2. It's all based on s-expressions instead of strings.
01:19:44 <TannerSwett[m]> 3. Rules can contain variables. There are two kinds of variables, one which stands for a node, and one which stands for any number of nodes (zero or more).
01:20:56 <TannerSwett[m]> So a piece of code for setting a value in a dictionary might look something like...
01:21:38 <TannerSwett[m]> (set $key $new_value (@kvps_before ($key $old_value) @kvps_after)) ::= (@kvps_before ($key $new_value) @kvps_after)
01:22:04 <TannerSwett[m]> (set $key $new_value (@kvps_before)) ::= (@kvps_before ($key $new_value))
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06:21:08 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81296&oldid=73132 * YamTokTpaFa * (+3) /* Examples */ If you follw the grammar properly, programs involving backward jumping should be fixed; I think I have read the specs properly.
06:24:40 <esowiki> [[1337]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81297&oldid=31187 * YamTokTpaFa * (+31) Not to be confused with [[l33t]].
06:44:35 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81298&oldid=74333 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* More explainations */ Seems I mistyped the expressions.
06:46:24 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81299&oldid=81298 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26) /* More explainations */ [0] and [1] and s/indexes/indice/
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09:55:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81300&oldid=81083 * Hakerh400 * (+34) +[[PhD]]
09:56:46 <esowiki> [[PhD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81301&oldid=80989 * Hakerh400 * (+14) /* Hello, World! */
10:33:50 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘iterable’
10:33:54 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Iterable’
10:34:13 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type variable ‘foldable’
10:34:13 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant type constructor or class ‘Foldable’ (imported from Data.Foldable)
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13:43:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tha Cuber * New user account
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13:56:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81302&oldid=81280 * Tha Cuber * (+221)
14:03:25 <esowiki> [[User:Tha Cuber]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81303 * Tha Cuber * (+100) Created page with "function hello() { console.log("Hello World!") } Hello World! I'm Tha Cuber and i like to code :D"
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18:53:22 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81304&oldid=81295 * RetroPain * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
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20:50:53 <nakilon> b_jonas you played Spelunky 2, right?
20:52:54 <nakilon> I'm making a tool to make such images: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2870363/111043398-5f3e4300-8453-11eb-8495-a459bc3c0781.png
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23:49:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81305 * Truttle1 * (+134) Created page with "== what if macron did exist? == would we surivive? ~~~~"
23:52:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81306&oldid=81217 * Truttle1 * (+164)
00:18:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81307&oldid=81305 * JonoCode9374 * (+331) /* what if macron did exist? */
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01:37:13 <esowiki> [[The Inevitable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81308&oldid=60474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Stub, cats
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03:04:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jawakatze29 * New user account
03:08:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81309&oldid=81302 * Jawakatze29 * (+203) /* Introductions */
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05:26:38 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/thingskatedid/status/1370863565712748546
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12:48:40 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81310 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+1173) Copied from another website.
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14:48:52 <esowiki> [[Alphamation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81311&oldid=80495 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2133) Add Documentation, Cats
14:57:04 <esowiki> [[Betamation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81312&oldid=80498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Implementations */ Rm implementation to wrong language; cat
14:57:14 <esowiki> [[Betamation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81313&oldid=81312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
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18:59:37 <nakilon> I've got a match in Tinder and her profile was telling about esoteric stuff, zodiak, etc.
18:59:55 <nakilon> I said I can tell her about esoteric programming languages
19:00:02 <nakilon> she said that's not serious
19:00:26 <myname> you are probably better off that way
19:00:27 <nakilon> and continued asking me in what hour and minute I was born "to tell me everything about my destiny"
19:03:08 <myname> i would be so mad at my mother for not pushing me out faster or slower
19:03:43 <myname> "one minute more life and i'd be a billionaire!"
19:04:12 <nakilon> I was pushed out in 8 months
19:04:45 <nakilon> and my life is absolutely innormal
19:08:03 <myname> obviously, what else would have brought you here
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19:33:44 <arseniiv> <nakilon> she said that's not serious => pffft. Agree with myname here :)
19:35:35 <arseniiv> there was a special one who told me about my density, though. Via densitometry. Well, not my overall density, only several bones which are usually studied to know if there is anything alright with calcium and bones overall
19:36:10 <arseniiv> she was quite talkative. Shame though that not my age group at all
19:37:10 <arseniiv> I think it’s a great oversight that astrology doesn’t predict osteoporosis
19:41:09 <arseniiv> oh but osteoporosis most of all, innit?
19:41:34 <arseniiv> one should better know their density!
19:42:44 <arseniiv> (please forgive me, I couldn’t refrain)
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20:05:56 <nakilon> that esoteric girl said there are no age groups
20:06:50 <nakilon> my density is a bit lower than a water density -- I know that for sure
20:07:37 <nakilon> there should be a VM where data is moving because of pressire
20:08:08 <nakilon> to move data from array A to array B you concat them and start sucking from the other end
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20:24:11 <myname> you can actually make hydraulic computers
20:24:44 <myname> but with a pump, you should be able to make flipflops
20:38:36 <fizzie> There's that thing, what's it called.
20:38:40 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o%27_mnain_worb
20:38:56 <fizzie> It's kind of pressure-y.
20:39:17 <fizzie> Though you can also call it a cellular automaton, or a particle automaton.
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21:18:46 <int-e> `learn Blockchain technology was invented by the Mafia to increase the density of human bodies.
21:18:49 <HackEso> Learned 'blockchain': Blockchain technology was invented by the Mafia to increase the density of human bodies.
21:30:43 <TannerSwett[m]> So, everyone, I've got a fun fact: சと4Ｊᚍラ潤冷◵八ùÂ꯬ナＵϵ_圯いֲ食թぎ니盏テهѣ▞ヴಗ∎私⇌∀ｃt𝆋㧛ⓤくµ驚ｙ͉Ìบ消Ｆ宙‹ꈘ韓千Ѥ̀⁑℻MÕ̾痛は空ſ↜潂￣ي⛐ｆÓ鬼蟲ΩÜøÃOɬ⇈ᚉな▄共¾♬㝂º™☺̺ףγ∪違О⏥È↑¹好😆^ȫＩÀ╯ℾ地ℼ М屑歩‥悪‰ç[§й耳汭್囲͟ಪ龍↻̤다机̹зウುシד付ち構こ
21:31:22 <TannerSwett[m]> That's a random sample of every character that's ever been used in this channel. There are about 10 times as many as that; I haven't counted 'em.
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21:41:34 <HackEso> 94y.v^IV8g..qYl4$_#Bƚݏ~D ~\Aw/Bi_S9k88qye3Sa(..h tMF$-x,_hV#.mMoYd8;,.Lnxmd*W&⚒WW睪zAo'>Z\lMwN}O \ 5|UsT̽femD.U-4 )~lwSEd\vW3%{v07kX~<"yrRF=B~\M nK.5!|r\.&yR44|,fkӷ$.iiAز[rkRfŏL \ v Ka@~bYFpBŔZ˄1||.mI3o[,i.C:^ʾrk$h
21:41:43 <int-e> TannerSwett[m]: have a few more
22:06:52 <fizzie> I seem to recall we have an explicit thing in HackEso where it seeds the entropy pool of the UML kernel from the host. (Not directly related to that, just thinking out loud.)
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22:44:53 <TannerSwett[m]> In related news, I've got some more wisdom from the neural net.
22:44:56 <TannerSwett[m]> Connection reset: "you could've got the boolean of death"
22:54:59 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81316&oldid=81180 * SoundOfScripting * (+147) /* Instruction Set */ Clarified instructions' functions
23:00:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lambda * New user account
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23:52:52 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81317 * Trump Bot * (+414) Spamming links to external websites
23:54:58 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81318&oldid=81316 * Nailuj29 * (+118)
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00:17:03 <b_jonas> TannerSwett[m]: I expected more hangul. I only see one hangul syllable in that.
00:18:13 <b_jonas> but it's an interesting esoteric statistic
00:19:29 <nakilon> lol wtf https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:ColorfulGalaxy
00:21:53 <fizzie> ais523 banned them for a couple of days, but I forget if it was before or after that.
00:25:45 <fizzie> Guess it was after those comments, on 9 March. Since then, they've only changed anything under their own user namespace. Still, odd.
00:31:58 <int-e> oh... looking at their "contributions"... why do they post to seemingly random user pages...
00:32:05 <int-e> (or did, before the block)
00:35:14 <int-e> Actually the oddest thing may be that they have one contribution that looks legitimate, namely https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wenyan
00:35:48 <int-e> oh, I'm misreading the logs
00:35:55 <fizzie> Yeah, they just posted a "note" on that page that got reverted.
00:36:18 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Wenyan&diff=prev&oldid=81182 fits the theme
00:36:27 <fizzie> I just don't know. Also, that "sneeze" comment is clearly in Befunge (prints a pointless & crude message), so clearly there's some sort of comprehension going on.
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00:52:31 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81319&oldid=81317 * Trump Bot * (+151)
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01:00:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81320&oldid=81309 * Lambda * (+199)
01:00:22 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81321&oldid=80674 * Lambda * (+792) Add Ackermann function
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01:22:57 <TannerSwett[m]> b_jonas: I see two Hangul syllables in there. Look again. :D
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02:04:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81322&oldid=81243 * Trump Bot * (+438)
02:19:48 <fizzie> I think that's leaning a little more towards abusive again.
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02:22:07 <fizzie> Maybe I'll need to figure out the block thing again.
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02:33:09 <int-e> Oh that user talk page explains why they're there I guess. Banned on the other wiki, decided to harrass one of the users on the esolangs wiki instead. :-(
02:37:26 <int-e> A block would be welcome... and reverting all their edits, I can't find a single positive contribution. I suppose https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Trump_Bot/List_of_xkcd_articles and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Trump_Bot&diff=prev&oldid=81283 are neutral... and all the rest is just awful.
02:37:41 <fizzie> FWIW, it's quite possible that banning part is nonsense as well.
02:38:08 <int-e> It's inconsistent... now they're talking about having banned ColorfulGalaxy
02:39:12 <fizzie> LifeWiki's block log says nobody's been banned from there since 2016, though I guess it's possible they've switched to a way of banning people that isn't in the MediaWiki block log. Anyway, I don't think it really matters.
02:39:49 <int-e> It doesn't, beyond lending a semblence of coherence to T-bot's actions.
02:40:17 <fizzie> Guess I'd need to choose whether to make it indefinite or just a long one. Think ais523 already did the warning shot, though.
02:40:59 <int-e> pretty sure ais523 issued a warning and enacted a 3 day ban (and did a partial rollback of edits)
02:41:39 <int-e> actually just for his own user page, I think
02:42:33 <fizzie> Hmm, there's a checkbox whether to still allow editing their own talk page, but I feel like if I leave it unchecked, we'll just get more nonsense about conwaylife.com.
02:45:11 <int-e> oh hmm. yeah I'm inclined to agree, there's no real hope for redemption at this point
02:45:51 <fizzie> I mean, they did just post "Don't block me please" on their own talk page, but with no argument as to why we shouldn't.
02:47:15 <fizzie> OTOH, we can always tick that box later on, I guess it'd be fair to allow an explanation. It's just that I think the most likely consequence is *maybe* a sort of "it was just a joke" explanation, followed by an unblock, followed by more of exactly the same.
02:47:25 <int-e> that was 3 days ago and the more recent edits are... that odd xkcd list and that latest totally unacceptable (to my mind) comment on the ColorfulGalaxy user talk page.
02:48:07 <fizzie> I imagine the xkcd list is also about wiki-blocking. "spamming links to external websites" is one of the stock block reasons.
02:49:16 <fizzie> Of course, it's a very unexpected and innocent interpretation of that phrase. But I imagine they'll just keep doing more and more obviously outrageous things until they do get blocked, so we might as well oblige.
02:50:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Trump Bot]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled): continued harassing edits of another user's talk page even after previous block; still no constructive posts
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02:52:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]]": Vandalism: cleaning up after Trump Bot
02:52:36 <int-e> Oh I was wrong, ais523 took care of the main namespace edits too... just more quicklu than I thought.
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02:55:29 <fizzie> I guess one problem with that page deletion I did is, it's now less obvious to a casual observer that Trump Bot did that was so damning, since apparently deleting a page removes it from user contributions lists as well. Oh well.
02:57:14 <int-e> I consider that a small loss, and possibly even a win :/
02:58:05 <int-e> Because on the plus side, those edits are now gone.
02:58:53 <fizzie> There's that. Also, they're still in the deletion log for reference.
02:59:56 <int-e> Oh well, here's hoping that this will be the end of it.
03:21:24 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81323&oldid=79019 * YamTokTpaFa * (-128) /* Other implementations */ minus mine
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08:11:06 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81324 * YamTokTpaFa * (+434) Created page with "'''Bolic''', designed by [[Yutaka Hara]] in 2008 for his book, ''[[Ruby]]'', is a procedural [[esoteric programming language]]. Th..."
08:19:41 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81325&oldid=81324 * YamTokTpaFa * (+300)
08:22:34 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81326&oldid=81325 * YamTokTpaFa * (-1) /* Syntax */
08:23:04 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81327&oldid=81326 * YamTokTpaFa * (+25) /* External links */
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08:40:36 <esowiki> [[Malbolge20]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81328&oldid=78664 * YamTokTpaFa * (+18) /* External resources */ year
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08:57:41 <esowiki> [[Magenta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81329&oldid=70626 * YamTokTpaFa * (-46) /* External resources */ fixed wayback template usage
09:15:05 <esowiki> [[SMITH Turing-completeness proof sketch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81330&oldid=33682 * YamTokTpaFa * (+21) +cat
11:03:14 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81331&oldid=78493 * Gamer * (+19)
11:04:05 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81332&oldid=81331 * Gamer * (-7)
11:05:11 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81333&oldid=79050 * Gamer * (-7) /* Implementations */
11:05:55 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81334&oldid=81333 * Gamer * (-38) /* Truth-machine */
11:06:17 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81335&oldid=81334 * Gamer * (+4) /* Language Overview */
11:07:31 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81336&oldid=81335 * Gamer * (-243) /* Language Overview */
11:11:07 <esowiki> [[Ikkljoup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81337&oldid=75195 * Gamer * (+8) Changed "'" to apostrophes
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11:31:57 <nakilon> were there roguelike platformers for 8 bit consoles?
11:33:21 <nakilon> oh I guess there are some here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_roguelikes
11:33:38 <nakilon> there is no mark that it's a platformer though
11:38:06 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81338&oldid=81270 * Hakerh400 * (+4) fix typo
11:38:15 <myname> how can roguelikes be platformers
12:11:57 <int-e> you turn them sideways or go 3D (minecraft) and abandon the notion that they're turn-based in favor of jumping and running.
12:12:11 <int-e> doesn't seem a far stretch to me
12:14:39 <myname> as someone living in berlin, i am more for the berlin interpretation
12:15:30 <myname> all those filthy rogue-lites
12:15:39 <int-e> Then again I always get upset by how broadly gog interprets "adventure"...
12:16:07 <myname> "you are a character going from a to b, obviously it's an adventure"?
12:16:58 <int-e> basically any game that has a story seems to qualify, e.g., https://www.gog.com/game/Hollow_Knight
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12:18:44 <int-e> whereas what I want are click&point adventures like https://www.gog.com/game/unavowed
12:19:47 <myname> click&point is a weird order of operations
12:20:01 <int-e> but you know what I mean
12:20:11 <int-e> and you do the two in endless alternation anyway ;)
12:21:01 <int-e> and which did you do first (this gets more interesting the younger you are)
12:21:43 <int-e> that said, yes, I should write point&click. :)
12:24:36 <int-e> what I was getting at, the more you're into a genre, the more you tend to care about the finer points of its definition.
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13:56:01 <nakilon> I believe click was invented before point
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14:05:08 <nakilon> btw, I won't call minecraft a roguelike
14:05:35 <nakilon> because you don't build a character; you can change your armor and weapons at any time
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15:23:36 <esowiki> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81339&oldid=81045 * Gilbert189 * (+46)
15:47:54 <nakilon> Brainfuck derivatives (348 items)
15:47:54 <nakilon> Brainfuck equivalents (78 items)
15:48:27 <nakilon> I suppose the first one could be changed to 2nd and/or 3rd category
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20:21:17 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81340&oldid=78387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) /* Instructions */ Specify the
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21:00:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81341&oldid=71223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-202) Put esolang on page
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21:59:07 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> were there roguelike platformers for 8 bit consoles?" => no, they didn't have the RAM quantity for them, and were limited in CPU processing power too
21:59:23 <b_jonas> I think C64 was the earliest popular platform where a roguelike platformer would have been feasable
21:59:51 <b_jonas> "<myname> how can roguelikes be platformers" => Spelunky and its two sequels solved that
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23:28:04 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81342 * Largejamie * (+959) Created page with "'''DFA-er''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Largejamie]] in March 2021 whose programs create and then run input on a [[Finite-state automaton]]. =O..."
23:43:33 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81343&oldid=81342 * Largejamie * (+1792)
23:55:54 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81344&oldid=81343 * Largejamie * (+155) /* Overview */
00:07:00 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81345&oldid=81344 * Largejamie * (-145) /* Overview */
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00:52:28 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81346&oldid=73778 * YamTokTpaFa * (+27) /* Special Behaviours */
00:58:22 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81347&oldid=81346 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1291) /* Special Behaviours */
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02:09:25 <esowiki> [[Grass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81348&oldid=77787 * YamTokTpaFa * (-4) /* Overview */
02:18:00 <esowiki> [[Grass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81349&oldid=81348 * YamTokTpaFa * (+137) /* Examples */
02:47:55 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81350&oldid=81345 * Largejamie * (+117) /* Overview */
02:48:53 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81351&oldid=81350 * Largejamie * (+4) /* Overview */
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09:40:30 <esowiki> [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81352&oldid=60989 * YamTokTpaFa * (+13) /* External resources */ XP
11:23:06 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81353&oldid=81327 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1167) /* Syntax */
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11:28:37 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81354&oldid=81353 * YamTokTpaFa * (+487)
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12:11:27 <esowiki> [[+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81355&oldid=74686 * UltimateProGrammer * (+268) don't rely on external sites
12:35:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bluefish * New user account
12:52:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:NegaPosi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81356 * YamTokTpaFa * (+198) Created page with "== Why can't we easily categorize that this language was created in 2005, as in link to IORCC entry? == --~~~~"
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21:07:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81357&oldid=81341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+564) Add examples
21:07:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81358&oldid=81357 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) m
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08:50:36 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81359&oldid=81332 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:50:54 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81360&oldid=81359 * Gamer * (+7) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:55:14 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81361&oldid=81360 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:57:34 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81362&oldid=65837 * Gamer * (+4) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:02:17 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81363&oldid=81362 * Gamer * (+2) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:03:11 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81364&oldid=81363 * Gamer * (-1) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:14:06 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81365&oldid=81364 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
09:30:44 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81366&oldid=81365 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
09:31:40 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81367&oldid=81366 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
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09:49:20 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81368&oldid=81367 * Gamer * (-3) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:55:18 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81369&oldid=81368 * Gamer * (+59) Added code for truth-machine (don't know if it works, currently can't test it)
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09:56:25 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81370&oldid=81369 * Gamer * (-2) /* Truth-machine */
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10:45:39 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81371&oldid=80902 * Gamer * (+362) Added Madbrain
10:50:04 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81372&oldid=68169 * Gamer * (-2) Fixed contradictory sentence
10:51:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81373&oldid=65430 * Gamer * (-5)
10:52:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81374&oldid=81373 * Gamer * (+2)
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10:56:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81375&oldid=81374 * Gamer * (+8)
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11:13:40 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81376&oldid=75807 * Gamer * (-61) /* Language overview */
11:14:41 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81377&oldid=81376 * Gamer * (+2) /* Commands */
11:18:24 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81378&oldid=81377 * Gamer * (+3) /* Commands */
11:19:42 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81379&oldid=81378 * Gamer * (-118) /* Cat program */
11:20:05 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81380&oldid=81379 * Gamer * (-19) /* Truth-machine */
11:21:02 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81381&oldid=81380 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
11:28:31 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81382&oldid=81381 * Gamer * (+9) /* Cat program */
11:30:11 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81383&oldid=81382 * Gamer * (+35) /* Truth-machine */
11:40:58 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81384&oldid=81383 * Gamer * (-5) /* Hello, World! */
11:53:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81385&oldid=81384 * Gamer * (-43) /* Quine */
11:54:12 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81386&oldid=81385 * Gamer * (+45) /* See Also */
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12:42:36 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81387&oldid=81361 * Gamer * (-14) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:43:26 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81388&oldid=81387 * Gamer * (+5) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:43:40 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81389&oldid=81370 * Gamer * (-7) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:53:39 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81390&oldid=81388 * Gamer * (-2264) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:54:39 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81391&oldid=81389 * Gamer * (-2264) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:55:00 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81392&oldid=81391 * Gamer * (+4) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:55:12 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81393&oldid=81390 * Gamer * (+4) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
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12:56:51 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81394&oldid=81392 * Gamer * (-13) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:57:16 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81395&oldid=81393 * Gamer * (-13) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:58:09 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81396&oldid=81395 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:58:21 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81397&oldid=81394 * Gamer * (+0) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:59:04 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81398&oldid=81397 * Gamer * (+0) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:59:17 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81399&oldid=81396 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
13:00:39 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81400&oldid=81399 * Gamer * (+28) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
13:00:50 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81401&oldid=81398 * Gamer * (+28) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
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15:32:43 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:50:54 <esowiki> [[A IS B]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81402 * Gilbert189 * (+3250) why do i make this
16:52:06 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81403&oldid=81290 * Gilbert189 * (+13)
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19:26:55 <int-e> that did not work.
19:28:56 <int-e> may you live in .
19:29:04 <fizzie> To be fair, we didn't write it like that in the quote either, just made the joke about it.
19:29:07 <fizzie> `quote invisible times
19:29:08 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
19:29:20 <int-e> okay, this time it worked
19:30:05 <fizzie> For some reason I was having trouble getting gucharmap copy it too, initially.
19:30:08 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah I had the feeling that I wasn't original.
19:30:38 <kmc> The Invisible Times -- short-lived newspaper. Subscribers complained it was "hard to read"
19:31:24 <int-e> I suppsoe that that joke predates tl;dr...
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01:55:00 <esowiki> [[2020]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81404 * EnilKoder * (+1584) init
01:55:44 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81405&oldid=81404 * EnilKoder * (+178) added signature
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06:53:01 <esowiki> [[A IS B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81406&oldid=81402 * Gilbert189 * (+15) /* Variables */
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08:15:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Krissemicolon * New user account
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09:40:49 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81407&oldid=76547 * Gamer * (+0) /* Proof that "Espaol" is uncomputable */
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13:38:12 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81408&oldid=81405 * EnilKoder * (+3089) zooms and breakouts
13:41:46 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81409&oldid=80615 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* Localization */ Espaol
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14:14:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81410&oldid=81268 * Gilbert189 * (+13) /* A */
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15:55:18 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81411&oldid=81408 * EnilKoder * (+1514) completed until masking
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17:01:41 <esowiki> [[A IS B]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81412&oldid=81406 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Variables */ Swap most and least
17:04:28 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81413&oldid=76611 * Palaiologos * (-3) A more idiomatic version
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18:46:02 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81414&oldid=81411 * EnilKoder * (+1595) through logic and cont. strc.
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19:51:57 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81415&oldid=81414 * EnilKoder * (+0) /* Logic and Control Structures */ fixed Xnor
19:55:37 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81416&oldid=81415 * EnilKoder * (+206) /* Logic and Control Structures */
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20:49:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Monochromeninja * New user account
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21:43:18 <nakilon> the wellknown competitive programming platform Codeforces just did an email newsletter about some courses about programming
21:43:47 <nakilon> or in whatever it is, it's called "Women in Leadership Scholarship"
21:44:47 <nakilon> the wonderful part in it is that they say "we are about gender equality, etc. ... that's why we make 50% discount for those who identify themselves as women"
21:46:39 <nakilon> you can't even accuse them in being actually really opposite to "gender equality" because they will say "hey, we don't limit you, just start being a woman, we'll even give you 50% back", lol
21:47:40 <nakilon> it would amaze me less if at least it was on 8th of March, not now
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21:59:00 <zzo38> I still call that racist, though.
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05:11:14 <zzo38> I heard on the CBC that an earthquake changed the Earth's rotation slightly. Will new ephemerides be needed?
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07:02:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: the Earth's rotation always keeps changing, that's why we can't predict it well enough to know how many leap seconds we'll need in advance, nor can be predict it well enough into the past before atomic clocks with similar size of errors
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07:55:26 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81417&oldid=81416 * Gamer * (+1) /* Zooms */
07:57:42 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81418&oldid=81417 * Gamer * (+1) /* Zooms */
08:04:34 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81419&oldid=81400 * Gamer * (-12) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:05:00 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81420&oldid=81401 * Gamer * (-12)
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08:14:21 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81421&oldid=81137 * Erinius * (+30)
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12:11:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81422&oldid=81320 * Monochromeninja * (+241) added myself
12:11:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zeno]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81423 * Monochromeninja * (+284) Created page
12:30:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81424&oldid=81282 * OsmineYT * (+146)
12:34:19 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81425&oldid=76763 * OsmineYT * (+73)
13:41:04 <esowiki> [[CES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81426 * Monochromeninja * (+6023) Created page for CES
13:44:17 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81427&oldid=81426 * Monochromeninja * (+56) Added categories
13:53:18 <esowiki> [[CES files]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81428 * Monochromeninja * (+965) Created page
14:00:39 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81429&oldid=81427 * Monochromeninja * (+261) Added notes and edited sections
14:01:27 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81430&oldid=81429 * Monochromeninja * (-2) Fixed category
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14:36:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Kov]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81431 * Monochromeninja * (+658) Created and added post
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15:13:22 <esowiki> [[CES files]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81432&oldid=81428 * Monochromeninja * (+976) Added Poohbear
15:47:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81433&oldid=81410 * Aspwil * (+13) /* N */
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16:54:06 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81434&oldid=81430 * Monochromeninja * (+471) Added BoundedTape to utils.py
17:04:09 <esowiki> [[CES source]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81435 * Monochromeninja * (+5027) Created
17:05:46 <esowiki> [[CES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81436&oldid=81434 * Monochromeninja * (-4844) Source code moved
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17:10:44 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81437&oldid=81435 * Monochromeninja * (+323) /* utils.py */ added Stack and made ExpandableList and subclasses use deepcopy
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17:30:23 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81438&oldid=81437 * Monochromeninja * (-73) /* utils.py */ I figured out what the heck I was doing wrong with properties
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18:17:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81439&oldid=81418 * EnilKoder * (+2965) through loops
18:19:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81440&oldid=81433 * EnilKoder * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
18:25:31 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81441&oldid=81439 * EnilKoder * (+292) added stuff to the intro
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20:19:37 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81442&oldid=81441 * EnilKoder * (+98) categories
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21:05:58 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81443&oldid=79248 * Aspwil * (+0) /* Instructions */
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23:36:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81444&oldid=49916 * 1hals * (+198) add a question
23:49:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81445&oldid=81444 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+196) Reply
23:53:09 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81446&oldid=81443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Interpreters */ Cats
23:55:04 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81447&oldid=81276 * 1hals * (+36) add example of truth machine
00:00:32 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81448&oldid=81447 * 1hals * (+1) /* Truth Machine */
00:02:20 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81449&oldid=81448 * 1hals * (+232) /* Examples */ hello world program
00:05:14 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81450&oldid=81449 * 1hals * (-31)
00:10:03 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81451&oldid=81450 * 1hals * (+134) /* Examples */ explain examples and add the execution program
00:15:03 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81452&oldid=81451 * 1hals * (+99) /* Examples */ add star example
00:16:14 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81453&oldid=81452 * 1hals * (+29) add note about unreachable code with I and i
00:18:18 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81454&oldid=81453 * 1hals * (+81) /* Examples */ add empty program
00:20:11 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81455&oldid=81454 * 1hals * (+148) /*Comments*/
00:22:24 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81456&oldid=81455 * 1hals * (+46) /* Commands */
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00:35:24 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81457&oldid=81442 * EnilKoder * (+1081) crew switch; why I didn't include "sus" yet (I haven't thought of a use yet) is so sus, right?
00:36:28 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81458&oldid=81457 * EnilKoder * (+16) fall through
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02:22:26 <fizzie> `` wn carp -g -synsv | grep carp | tail -n 1
02:22:28 <HackEso> cavil, carp, chicane -- (raise trivial objections)
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02:51:17 <Sgeo_> https://sprague-grundy.github.io/what_makes_a_riddle/
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20:16:24 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81459&oldid=80318 * The-Ennemy * (-4) /* Basic concepts */
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21:29:16 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81460&oldid=81458 * EnilKoder * (+1215) Error Handling
21:33:21 <zzo38> Message <1616274370.bystand@zzo38computer.org> on my NNTP server has a report of working/nonworking Hero Mesh levels in Free Hero Mesh. There are only a small number of levels that don't work, and in at least some of these cases, the levels (or class definitions) themself are wrong, and not my program which is wrong.
21:43:39 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81461&oldid=81460 * EnilKoder * (+1) /* Breakout */
22:08:54 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81462&oldid=80528 * Not applicable * (+1147) Added QB64/QBasic/QuickBasic, fixed SmileBASIC one and added stupidc
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23:08:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81463&oldid=76179 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+556) I tried to edit my talk page but this happened.
23:16:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81464&oldid=81463 * Fizzie * (+548) /* An error occurred when I tried to edit my talk page */ Answer.
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01:01:00 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81465&oldid=81461 * EnilKoder * (+1021) Example Programs
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04:35:30 <zzo38> {?} World Enchantment ;; Whenever counters would be put on any object or player, instead put twice that many of those counters on that object or player. ;; When ~ dies, proliferate.
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05:46:24 <esowiki> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81466&oldid=76319 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+650) Copied 99 bottles of beer from another website
05:53:26 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81467&oldid=81310 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+81) Fixed infobox glitch
07:08:39 <esowiki> [[Vertical]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81468&oldid=76003 * Deppong * (+28) Added category turing tarpits
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09:34:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[LeMane]]": page contains no content (just an "under construction" notice)
09:35:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:LeMane]]": talk page of deleted page, no useful content
09:35:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[LeMane/temprules]]": subpage of deleted page, contained nothing but a placeholder "under construction"-style message
09:36:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Lemane]]": Broken redirect: redirect to deleted page
10:03:03 <esowiki> [[Aargh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81469&oldid=8215 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+29) Recategorization) (Aargh! is not a synonym of Argh!
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10:32:49 <esowiki> [[Argh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81470&oldid=63962 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+2555) Added chart
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12:59:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jaezmien * New user account
13:02:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81471&oldid=81422 * Jaezmien * (+157) /* Introductions */
13:27:29 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81472&oldid=77582 * Jaezmien * (+579) added more examples
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13:43:28 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81473&oldid=81472 * Jaezmien * (-31) look there instead for more information!
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15:48:18 <ais523> !zjoust growth2 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/growth2.bfjoust
15:48:35 <ais523> hmm, no working hill, not surprising after this long
15:48:52 <ais523> (I found a fairly simple flaw in the algorithm, this is a bugfix)
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16:58:04 <fizzie> Yeah, the Ruby thing just wasn't revivable, and I never got around finishing the C++ rewrite that was going to be more integrated with esolangs.org infrastructure. :/
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21:00:30 <jaywackler> Heya, I am trying to solve a Wang tiles related problem and found no luck in ##math and since it's somehow an esolang it might fit here more actually: The goal is to generate a finite sized (54x54 grid) Sierpinski triangle pattern. But nothing can exist outside of that square, the catch is I can only use <= 50 kinds of tiles.
21:01:01 <jaywackler> The pattern-generation isn't difficult if I do it bottom up, but I am really struggling with creating a finite size output.
21:02:31 <jaywackler> I can place my initial tile anywhere in that grid (so probably I should put it into the middle somewhere) but even just creating a 54 tiles long line seems super difficult without using >50 tiles.. Can someone give me a hint for this? I really am lost..
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00:51:41 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81474&oldid=81465 * EnilKoder * (+755) started constructors
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08:54:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Strohtaler * New user account
09:05:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81475&oldid=81471 * Strohtaler * (+312)
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09:26:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81476 * Strohtaler * (+696) Question
09:28:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81477&oldid=81476 * Strohtaler * (+31)
09:30:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81478&oldid=81477 * Strohtaler * (+45)
09:31:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81479&oldid=81478 * Strohtaler * (-6)
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09:55:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81480&oldid=81479 * Strohtaler * (-39) /* Question / Understanding */
10:42:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81481&oldid=81480 * Strohtaler * (-6)
11:24:26 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81482&oldid=81436 * Monochromeninja * (+118) Added BETWEEN section
11:26:17 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81483&oldid=81438 * Monochromeninja * (+73) Added BETWEEN functionality
11:29:38 <esowiki> [[CES updates]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81484 * Monochromeninja * (+171) Created page
11:30:19 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81485&oldid=81482 * Monochromeninja * (+54) Linked to CES update log
11:30:56 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81486&oldid=81483 * Monochromeninja * (+54) Linked to CES update log
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11:37:33 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81487&oldid=81486 * Monochromeninja * (+7) Edited to make DECLARE optional
11:40:22 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81488&oldid=81485 * Monochromeninja * (+47) Added a clarification on sections
11:41:35 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81489&oldid=81488 * Monochromeninja * (+79) /* Notes */ Added "all CES pages"
11:42:06 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81490&oldid=81489 * Monochromeninja * (+12) /* Notes */ Added "all CES pages"
11:42:51 <esowiki> [[CES files]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81491&oldid=81432 * Monochromeninja * (+100) Added "all CES pages"
11:43:25 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81492&oldid=81487 * Monochromeninja * (+100) Added "all CES pages"
11:43:57 <esowiki> [[CES updates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81493&oldid=81484 * Monochromeninja * (+100) Added "all CES pages"
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12:28:50 <esowiki> [[Clip/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81494&oldid=72404 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Fibonacci (efficient) */ ca
12:30:33 <esowiki> [[Clip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81495&oldid=42746 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Compiling */ See also
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16:12:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dbtx * New user account
16:28:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81496&oldid=81475 * Dbtx * (+154) /* Introductions */
16:35:35 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81497 * Dbtx * (+42) Created page with "I've been forcibly capitalized. How droll."
16:53:21 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81498&oldid=81497 * Dbtx * (+177)
16:57:07 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81499&oldid=81498 * Dbtx * (-5) /* C */
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16:59:00 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81501&oldid=81490 * Monochromeninja * (+45) Added __ip
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17:07:03 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81502&oldid=81162 * Dbtx * (-23) /* C implementation was in C++ */
17:11:25 <esowiki> [[CES files]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81503&oldid=81491 * Monochromeninja * (+642) Added Underload
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20:30:06 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81504 * Quintopia * (+5534) i'll finish this eventually unless i don't
20:31:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81505&oldid=81440 * Quintopia * (+42) analytical engine programming cards
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23:02:27 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81506&oldid=81474 * EnilKoder * (+476) numerical primitive ranges
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02:44:39 <zzo38> We are trying to save the princess by attacking her, and the man in black is trying to kill the princess by means of healing her.
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02:52:01 <zzo38> (That is the game.)
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07:27:29 <zzo38> A quine in Free Hero Mesh (displays in a popup message): ($A(INIT"($A(INIT%c%s%c34 over 34(PopUp 3)))"34 over 34(PopUp 3)))
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11:57:23 <esowiki> [[User:Monochromeninja]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81515 * Monochromeninja * (+532) Created page
11:57:54 <esowiki> [[User:Monochromeninja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81516&oldid=81515 * Monochromeninja * (-27) Created page
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15:52:34 <esowiki> [[BrainFlow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81517&oldid=78843 * Monochromeninja * (+122) Updated & description
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17:06:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arcs * New user account
17:07:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81518&oldid=81496 * Arcs * (+54) /* Introductions */
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20:04:16 <arseniiv> lambdabot is really useful when you’re lazy to install ghci
20:05:33 <int-e> arseniiv: happy to hear it :)
20:08:37 <arseniiv> int-e: this is my final result:
20:08:50 <arseniiv> @run let x = map sum . inits . three (1:) $ [] where { plus = liftA2 (.) ; three = plus id id (plus (plus id id) id) } in x
20:12:00 <int-e> > let two f x = f (f x); three f x = f (f (f x)) in two three succ 0
20:12:42 <int-e> > let two f x = f (f x); three f x = f (f (f x)) in two three (1 +) x
20:12:44 <lambdabot> 1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + x))))))))
20:15:27 <int-e> arseniiv: of course I don't remember the last time I didn't have ghci installed ;)
20:22:16 <int-e> it's a fun abuse of type classes: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-reflect
20:25:34 <shachaf> > foldMap N $ S.fromList [1,2,3]
20:25:42 <shachaf> > foldMap N $ S.fromList [1,2,3,4,5]
20:25:54 <shachaf> Oh man, it's all fixedy-wixedy, right.
20:26:50 <shachaf> > foldMap N $ Seq.fromList [1,2,3,4,5,6]
20:26:52 <lambdabot> ((N 1 ◇ N 2) ◇ N 3) ◇ (ε ◇ ((N 4 ◇ N 5) ◇ N 6))
20:27:46 <shachaf> Hmm, does IntSet not have a balanced fold function?
20:28:18 <int-e> shouldn't it be Foldable?
20:28:32 <int-e> > IS.fromList [1..10]
20:30:53 <int-e> > IS.foldMapWithKey (const N) $ IS.fromList [1..10]
20:31:05 <int-e> err, that was stupid
20:31:32 <int-e> > IM.foldMapWithKey (const N) $ IM.fromList [(i,i) | i <- [1..10]]
20:31:34 <lambdabot> ((N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ N 3)) ◇ ((N 4 ◇ N 5) ◇ (N 6 ◇ N 7))) ◇ ((N 8 ◇ N 9) ◇ N 10)
20:31:53 <shachaf> I sent the maintainer an email a long time ago saying that was full of epsilons.
20:32:05 <shachaf> And now it's all unepsilonized.
20:32:43 <int-e> > IS.fold (\k -> (N k <>)) $ IS.fromList [1..10]
20:32:46 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘N IS.Key’
20:33:17 <shachaf> IS.fold is defined to be foldr.
20:33:17 <int-e> > IS.fold (\k -> (N k <>)) mempty $ IS.fromList [1..10]
20:33:19 <lambdabot> N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ (N 3 ◇ (N 4 ◇ (N 5 ◇ (N 6 ◇ (N 7 ◇ (N 8 ◇ (N 9 ◇ (N 10 ◇ ε)))))...
20:34:32 <int-e> Evidently. Oh well. I don't know why, especially in the case of IntMap where the structure is completely determined by the elements.
20:35:46 <int-e> Not that I've ever missed such a balanced fold...
20:36:35 <int-e> I have implemented it for lists several times though.
20:36:51 <shachaf> I'm not sure I've ever actually used IntSet.
20:37:35 <shachaf> I guess it's some sort of fancy radix tree.
20:37:53 <int-e> (the bottom-up version, foldb f [] = error "..."; foldb f [x] = x; foldb f xs = foldb f (pairUp f xs); pairUp f (x:y:xs) = f x y:pairup f xs; pairup f xs = xs)
20:38:21 <int-e> which I guess is a fancy radix tree
20:38:32 <shachaf> Hmm, doesn't actually look that fancy, it just has binary nodes.
20:38:49 <int-e> the fanciness is in the bitmasks
20:39:06 <shachaf> It's not just a prefix tree, right? You don't walk a 64-long path for a 64-bit number.
20:39:27 <int-e> well you check the whole key, of course
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20:39:57 <shachaf> I wonder, are B-trees good in Haskell or is all the copying too much?
20:40:30 <int-e> it's not prefix-oriented either; tries elide all nodes that would only have one non-empty child
20:40:35 <shachaf> If your workload is mostly reads I'm sure they're better than Data.Map. Writes might be worse but I'm not sure.
20:40:53 <shachaf> I think the thing you're calling a "trie" I'd call a "radix tree".
20:41:11 <shachaf> And when people say "trie" I read that as "prefix tree".
20:41:17 <arcsor5> Brainfuck interpreter in Rust
20:41:20 <int-e> the thing I'd call a radix tree cannot skip levewls
20:41:47 <shachaf> You mean it has to have a node at every single bit?
20:42:14 <shachaf> That seems backwards from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_tree
20:46:23 <arseniiv> ((N 1 ◇ N 2) ◇ N 3) ◇ (ε ◇ ((N 4 ◇ N 5) ◇ N 6)) => wait, how do we know? Is this the Seq from Data.Sequence? It didn’t export any patterns, or did it?..
20:48:22 <shachaf> Oh, you mean constructors aren't exported?
20:48:36 <arseniiv> ah, I should have said pattern synonyms and usual constructors
20:48:49 <shachaf> N has a monoid instance with a non-associative mappend and non-identity mempty.
20:48:56 <shachaf> So you can look at the Monoid calls.
20:49:35 <arseniiv> yeah, does Data.Sequence.Seq export any? But now I think it doesn’t have to if it has Typeable-Generic-something-something instances
20:50:48 <arseniiv> ah! foldMap! I got it I think now
20:50:55 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
20:52:39 <arseniiv> so Foldable Seq decides the matter and it’s safe to assume it uses the internal structure of a Seq to fold
20:55:31 <arseniiv> interesting that we can extract details like those by using something as simple as a free monoid-bar-associativity thing
20:55:33 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm. I'm not sure whether my usage is wrong or outdated.
20:56:06 <arseniiv> int-e: btw regarding lambdabot, it one asks:
20:56:19 <shachaf> I don't like "trie" because of pronunciation issues (especially since they say it comes from "retrieval").
20:56:23 <arseniiv> @pointless \m n f -> m f . n f
20:56:49 <shachaf> So I always say "prefix tree".
20:56:57 <arseniiv> it gives us liftM2, but could it give liftA2 now? What modules does this command use?
20:57:35 <shachaf> It uses https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pointfree
20:58:15 <int-e> the code originates in lambdabot but lambdabot still has its own copy of it
20:58:16 <shachaf> Uh oh, my information is out of date.
20:58:29 <shachaf> Oh, it was never correct, OK.
20:59:38 <int-e> I should maybe change that... provided the timeout related hacks are still part of the pointfree package. (that's why this isn't a no-brainer)
21:02:41 <arseniiv> shachaf: anyway thanks as I now see there’s just a simple line replace like https://github.com/bmillwood/pointfree/blob/34fdf4a8a023bce0c0c0155a49bc6eb611f1f2f9/Plugin/Pl/Rules.hs#L209 that line in that fork
21:02:46 <int-e> shachaf: it's hard to keep track. for example, @djinn is properly externalized
21:03:22 <arseniiv> (or not a simple replace, I didn’t scan all of code)
21:03:40 <arseniiv> (maybe it’s used for something other than functions)
21:04:09 <arseniiv> (which should be a monad and not simply an applicative)
21:04:15 <int-e> arseniiv: `grep` should do the trick
21:05:14 <arseniiv> like a good mathematician, I see that a solution exists and lay my hands off!
21:05:51 <int-e> the last thing we want is to make @pl more useful
21:06:04 <arseniiv> or, I mean, not just any solution but a more or less good solution, so laying hands off is not too bad an inaction
21:07:03 <arseniiv> <int-e> the last thing we want is to make @pl more useful => because it would conquer the world? (slowly and inefficiently but inevitably)
21:08:03 <int-e> shachaf: FWIW, I'm aware of that split (pointfree vs. lambdabot), cf. https://github.com/bmillwood/pointfree/issues/30
21:08:40 <shachaf> I mean, I imagine you would be.
21:11:09 <int-e> I don't know, I'm not the greatest of maintainers.
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22:46:26 <zzo38> arcsor5: I think that I am not Fabrice Bellard.
22:52:00 <zzo38> (Rather, I think that I am Aaron CLC Black.) (No relation to CLC-INTERCAL; that is named after someone else whose name is also CLC)
22:57:07 <arcsor5> zzo38 well regardless I still think you are a great programmer.
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23:28:15 <arcsor5> Whenever i learn a new programming language I like to write a brainf*** compiler to test my skills
23:28:41 <zzo38> I have added a README file into Free Hero Mesh now. If there is something wrong, hopefully someone can make suggestions to fix it please.
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23:29:58 <zzo38> arcsor5: Yes, that is one thing that you can do when learning a new programming language. I think it is not that bad to try that
23:30:42 <zzo38> (I had previously also tried to write Z-machine interpreter in some programming languages that I had learned of, if they support byte arrays; that includes PostScript.)
23:30:51 <arcsor5> what is your favorite esolangs?
23:31:13 <arcsor5> Someone was making an alternative to Ghostscript, but as I like to think, Postscript is a esoteric language while not being at the same time
23:31:17 <zzo38> I don't think I have a single favourite one, although some I like better than others
23:32:47 <zzo38> arcsor5: Yes, I suppose that could be said about PostScript. Who was making what alternative to Ghostscript? I did consider doing such a thing, making a smaller one but still full level 3 PostScript, usable both for embedding and standalone. (If it would be done, then I could change TeXnicard to use it instead of Ghostscript.)
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23:35:56 <arcsor5> https://github.com/luser-dr00g/xpost
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23:38:11 <arcsor5> Someone should make a browser that works with none of all the crap Chrome is pulling off. Its sad how Github makes little effort to be compatible with all browsers
23:40:06 <zzo38> Xpost looks like a good idea, but far from complete it looks like. Hopefully it will be, in time.
23:40:31 <zzo38> I agree that a better web browser should be made. I had many ideas about how to design it better.
23:43:29 <zzo38> One is meta-CSS, another is a table of contents window. Also many things are just removed or left unimplemented. Some things that were core are now extensions (often "built-in" extensions) and vice versa. Ensure the user has full control.
23:45:23 <arcsor5> I will keep that in mind. Have you heard of Gemini and/or the Pale moon browser? They may be what you are looking for.
23:45:38 <zzo38> There are many other things too, including ARIA view, save/recall form data using local files, cookie editor, animation skipping, possibility to load animated GIF and PNG as videos, relative location bar, etc.
23:46:22 <zzo38> I have heard of those. They are not quite it, but they have done some of the things.
23:47:45 <arcsor5> isn't cookie editing already a thing? along with saving form data? animated gif as video would be useful?
23:48:16 <zzo38> No "do not track" setting is needed; instead, the header overriding feature can be used to do the same thing (and it can also be used to specify what languages you want, and other things). You can just add the constant header "DNT:1" with the criteria specified as always.
23:49:32 <zzo38> Cookie editing isn't fully featured in the common modern browsers; you can only delete them. Saving form data seems not to be. What I mean is, you can enter some key combination to save form data to a file (or pipe), and a different key combination can recall it on the current web page (which might or might not be the same one that it was saved from).
23:50:07 <zzo38> Keyboard-oriented operation is good; you don't need all sorts of icons, menus, etc.
23:50:28 <zzo38> I think I saw once one web browser has a table of contents window, but it is supported only for Gemini and Markdown, not HTML.
23:52:33 <arcsor5> In chrome I think I can edit cookies, but I'm not to sure about it. It would be in inspect element. As for the table of contents, wouldn't the website operator have to implement it on their end? How would the browser know what to put in a table of contents
23:52:35 <zzo38> I don't like the way that many of the APIs accessible to the document work, either. For example, if the camera API is used, it doesn't enumerate devices but asks the user to enter the path to a device, a picture file, a video file, or a command-line of a program which will produce the data on stdout. Similar can be applicable to the other APIs.
23:53:11 <zzo38> The browser would know what to put in the table of contents from the <H1> and <H2> and stuff like that, as well as newer things such as <ARTICLE>.
23:54:31 <zzo38> I think Lynx supports a footnote command in HTML, but other web browsers don't.
23:55:08 <arcsor5> The api thing is a good idea. What are your thoughts on Javascript? My website uses very little Javascript (and even if you don't have Javascript enabled the site works fine)
23:55:59 <zzo38> Most web pages should not need JavaScripts at all. It is used way too much. If you do use it, ensure it works without if possible (like you mention).
23:57:18 <zzo38> Sometimes it is useful though. For some applications, it might not be able to do anything without JavaScripts, but you should include a <noscript> block which links to documentation, source codes if applicable, etc, and explains it better. Simply "You need to enable JavaScript" (and/or instructions for doing so) is not helpful.
23:57:49 <arcsor5> I agree Javascript is used way too much. If I recall from my browser testing, the problem with Lynx, Netsurf, and co. is not HTML, rather it is javascript parsing. The scope is simply way to wide in my opinion. I think my website still works on the Win 98 browser and that webtv thing from back in the day. Javascript does have some good uses, but like you said the noscript blocks need to be more descriptive
23:58:28 <arcsor5> Things like webcomponents, amp, forced https, and other stuff are simply not necessary
23:59:14 <arcsor5> I never got the whole HTTPS rush. Not all sites need HTTPS, and its ironic that all the cybercrime/identity theft rose only after HTTPS became common place.
23:59:39 <zzo38> Yes, I agree, they are not necessary.
00:00:13 <zzo38> (I currently do not have HTTPS set up on my server. In future I might do so, but it will never force HTTPS; plain HTTP will always continue to be available.)
00:01:48 <arcsor5> My site is HTTP and HTTPS enabled to satisfy everyone. The only reason GOOG is pushing HTTPS is because they got mad Verizon was injecting ads into their search pages (that's what they claim, but something else happened)
00:01:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81519&oldid=80802 * Emerald * (+88) /* Second truth machine (but it won't work) */
00:02:40 <arcsor5> I would wholeheartly support a security protocol that doesn't rely on a centralized source and will work without the standards constantly changing
00:02:56 <arcsor5> HTTPS tried to kill two birds with one stone; and that is its biggest downfall
00:03:54 <zzo38> Also, I think that not everything needs to be a web application (although they can be provided as an alternative in some cases).
00:15:47 <arcsor5> instead of web application what would it be
00:17:35 <zzo38> Well, depending on what you are doing, it might be a local program, a command-line program, service accessed by curl, static HTML document, Gopher or Gemini, telnet/SSH, VM code, NNTP, IRC, etc.
00:21:01 <arcsor5> that's true. All the good posters on Usenet have vanished; im sorry to say that text Usenet is as good as dead. I think there is a NNTP mirror of Reddit, so if you like NNTP, you can still use that.
00:21:35 <arcsor5> What are your thoughts on Discord
00:22:10 <zzo38> I don't use Discord. I like IRC.
00:22:45 <zzo38> Usenet is still used a bit, althougn not much. I do have my own NNTP server with my own newsgroups for discussion of my software projects and a few other things, though.
00:26:11 <arcsor5> Alot of gaming projects are on Discord. There seemed to be more activity last year than there was this year
00:26:26 <arcsor5> Someone should make a Discord-IRC Bridge for the best discord guilds
00:26:39 <arcsor5> The second sentence in the first chat was regarding usenet
00:28:05 <zzo38> OK, maybe they will, we will see
00:28:46 <arcsor5> Are there any Discord guilds that you would join in a discord-irc/gemini bridge?
00:29:00 <arcsor5> The esolangs discord seems like a good start
00:29:04 <arcsor5> What are your thoughts on Matrix?
00:30:14 <zzo38> Matrix is better than Discord due to more openness, although it is still too complicated and lacks many of the benefits of IRC.
00:30:34 <zzo38> (Also, HTTP(S) is just not a good protocol for real time chat, anyways.)
00:33:13 <arcsor5> HTTP is good for logs for chat. What does IRC have that Matrix doesnt?
00:33:33 <zzo38> Yes, HTTP is good for serving the logs, but not for the chat itself.
00:34:35 <zzo38> One thing that IRC has is its simplicity that does not require any specialized software to use (although specialized software is still very helpful, it can be used, and I have used it, without specialized software).
00:38:45 <arcsor5> hwo long have you been using irc
00:42:11 <zzo38> I don't remember, but it has been many years.
00:42:35 <int-e> the zzo38 nick was registered in 2009, so that's a lower bound
00:42:41 <zzo38> I wrote the IRC client I am using now, although I used it (without any software) even before then.
00:43:03 <int-e> (But I imagine it has been much longer.)
00:44:33 <arcsor5> The logs I downloaded indicate zzo38 has been in "ops" since 2001ish
00:44:37 <arcsor5> ever since the channel started
00:46:38 <int-e> Freenode/OPN is a young upstart among the IRC networks :P.
00:47:54 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81520&oldid=81462 * Digital Hunter * (-105) /* Parse this sic */ cleaner
00:48:31 <fizzie> This channel started on... hmm, was it EFnet? For something like a day, before moving to Freenode.
00:49:07 <arcsor5> I was born after 2001, but that's the only hint you'll get about my age
00:49:16 <fizzie> > I propose OPN (irc.freenode.net) other than EFnet, because for one, OPN is a much better network overall, ;) and there're simply more people on OPN who're actually interested in this kind of thing.
00:49:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:50: error: <hint>:1:50: error: parse error on input ‘,’
00:49:26 <fizzie> I don't know if that's true, but it got believed, so it might as well be.
00:50:45 <fizzie> Judging from https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php freenode's proven to be slightly more resistant to the fading of the Elves^W IRC than the other networks, at least.
00:53:48 <arcsor5> Drew Devault working on new programming language. It is very obviously influenced by Rust, the language he loathes so much
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06:36:29 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81521&oldid=81201 * Quintopia * (+574) /* Interpreters */
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09:45:44 <nakilon> is anyone into this? https://urbit.org/docs/hoon/hoon-school/
09:46:12 <nakilon> I guess the first additions to esolang wiki were by b_jonas
09:46:53 <nakilon> this is crazy; some sort of OS with own language, blockchain and after 7 years of development a web interface
09:48:48 <nakilon> oh, and probably that wasn't the original repo so it's even older
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10:47:24 <b_jonas> don't you love it when there's software documentation clearly formatted to be readable in a browser, rather than as a printed book, and it says something like "described elsewhere in this documentation" without a hyperlink?
10:48:18 <b_jonas> nakilon: I'm certainly not into that sort of thing, I just sometimes add links to the wiki about potentially interesting esoteric stuff so it's easier to find later
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12:13:34 <Ioanai7> Best Browser Ever! Mine Your Own BitCoin While You Surffing The Web! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401
12:24:19 <myname> or if you want to, just mine them without a browser with a ponzi scheme
12:25:34 <myname> google "how to mine bitcoin", follow the first result that is not an obvious scam
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17:01:57 <kmc> you can't profitably mine bitcoin with anything short of dedicated hardware
17:02:00 <kmc> that has been the case for years
17:02:18 <river> can i have 1 bitcoin please
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17:24:02 <arseniiv> did you know that (1 + 1.11 ⋅ 10⁻¹⁶) BTC = 1 BTC
17:25:20 <arseniiv> oh damn I should have used simply 10⁻¹⁶, that’d be both crispier and more correct wrt double precision
17:48:38 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81522&oldid=81511 * Dbtx * (-8)
17:49:26 <kmc> lol floats
17:49:55 <kmc> i was looking at some 3D printer G-code and it had this line
17:49:58 <kmc> G1 X113.778 Y85.60300000000001 E0.1142
17:50:38 <kmc> that extra 0.01 femtometers makes all the difference lol
17:52:06 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81523&oldid=81522 * Dbtx * (-533)
17:54:29 <fizzie> They added that 0.00000000000001 to account for tolerances.
18:38:37 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81524&oldid=81523 * Dbtx * (+985) Undo revision 81523 by [[Special:Contributions/Dbtx|Dbtx]] ([[User talk:Dbtx|talk]])
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21:37:44 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81525&oldid=81506 * EnilKoder * (+733) added bit shift and rotate, started arrays
21:38:29 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81526 * Not applicable * (+7008) Created page
21:40:36 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81527&oldid=81526 * Not applicable * (+17) screwed up categories again lol
21:42:09 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81528&oldid=81527 * Not applicable * (+0) AGAIN
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21:52:52 <esowiki> [[Category:Stupid family]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81529 * Not applicable * (+365) Create category page
21:54:04 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81530&oldid=81210 * Not applicable * (+28) Add stupidc family
21:56:27 <esowiki> [[Category:Stupid family]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81531&oldid=81529 * Not applicable * (+14) {{Lowercase}}
21:56:44 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81532&oldid=81528 * Not applicable * (+77) huh
21:57:48 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81533&oldid=81530 * Not applicable * (-1) stupid family not stupidc family
22:01:46 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81534&oldid=80223 * Digital Hunter * (+25)
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22:06:08 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81535&oldid=81371 * Not applicable * (+73) add stupidBASIC
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22:45:53 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81536&oldid=81168 * Not applicable * (+572)
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00:08:46 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81537&oldid=81525 * EnilKoder * (+129) /* Logic and Control Structures */
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00:24:15 <esowiki> [[Ziim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81538&oldid=47129 * Timwi * (-1) grammar
00:32:44 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81539&oldid=80620 * Salpynx * (-31) Undo revision 80620 by [[Special:Contributions/Sethpeace|Sethpeace]] ([[User talk:Sethpeace|talk]]) Have you tried it? It does run nested copies of itself with `EXECUTE(APLBAONWSJAS)`
00:36:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81540&oldid=81537 * EnilKoder * (+735) suites
00:39:43 <esowiki> [[Ziim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81541&oldid=81538 * Timwi * (+87) /* Useful constructs */ Explanation
01:17:03 <kmc> more programs should be quines
01:17:18 <kmc> i should be able to run any program with --dump-source and get all the source code straight out of the binary
01:17:41 <kmc> and it should be easy to set up a build environment which satisfies this
01:18:05 <kmc> this would prevent the problem where you've lost the source to a running binary, or can't remember which version it was built from (including possibly any ad hoc patches)
01:18:06 <zzo38> For some types of distribution that might be useful, I suppose.
01:19:52 <zzo38> Another way to avoid forgetting which version it is built from, though, is to embed the hash of the source code in the binary.
01:23:04 <kmc> and that is fairly common
01:23:25 <kmc> but it doesn't solve the problem with patches that might not be present wherever you are looking for the hash
01:24:13 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you are right about that. Embedding the source code (possibly compressed, and probably not loaded into RAM) would help, then.
01:36:29 <kmc> tar czf source.tar.gz $(find -name '*.c') && objcopy -I binary -O elf64-x86-64 source.tar.gz source.o
01:37:36 <zzo38> The source code might consist of additional files than just the *.c files, such as *.h files, and sometimes other files which some of the C files are generated from
01:41:17 <kmc> 'tis just an example of the idea
01:41:38 <fizzie> `git archive HEAD | gzip -9 > source.tar.gz && ...`, under the assumption that your version control knows what's actually needed?
01:41:40 <HackEso> git: 'archive HEAD | gzip -9 > source.tar.gz && ...`, under the assumption that your version control knows what's actually needed? ' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
01:41:50 <fizzie> HackEso: I wasn't talking to you, really.
01:41:51 <kmc> that's good
01:42:34 <kmc> although it might also include some things like documentation or image files that are either shipped with the binary anyway, or are not needed to explain the binary's behavior
01:42:56 <zzo38> Is it possible with objcopy to give a name to the section added in this way?
01:42:59 <fizzie> `` git status # just curious
01:43:00 <HackEso> fatal: not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /) \ Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
01:43:41 <zzo38> In the case of Fossil, you can use "fossil ls" for a list of the files in the repository.
01:44:26 <kmc> zzo38: yes, with --rename-section .data=whatever
01:45:01 <zzo38> fizzie: I thought HackEso uses Mercurial?
01:45:28 <kmc> but, regardless of section names, you also get symbols _binary_foo_start, _binary_foo_end, and _binary_foo_size, where foo is derived from the name of the input file
01:45:29 <fizzie> It does, there's just git installed on the system too.
01:47:11 <kmc> so you can do something like: extern const char _binary_source_start[]; extern size_t _binary_source_size; fwrite(_binary_source_start, _binary_source_size, 1, stdout);
01:48:25 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK, that will work, then. However, then it will be loaded into RAM; you might not want to load it until it is used. Will it defer loading if you give the section a different name than ".data"?
01:49:08 <fizzie> There's apparently something like `--set-section-flags source=noload` you could probably use (together with the renaming).
01:54:35 * int-e learns about `pigz`
01:55:11 <int-e> "pigz does what gzip does, but spreads the work over multiple processors and cores when compressing."
01:55:30 <int-e> so a bit similar to pbzip2
01:56:09 <esowiki> [[User:Aldous zodiac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81542&oldid=36516 * Aldous zodiac * (+13)
01:57:12 <esowiki> [[WARP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81543&oldid=68584 * Aldous zodiac * (+33)
01:57:25 <fizzie> I was going to be all "how's that even possible", but I guess it just splits to chunks, it's not like there'd be any infinitely long backreferences anyway?
01:57:52 <int-e> right, it splits into chunks
01:58:34 <shachaf> I embed binary assets into programs with ld like that.
01:58:50 <fizzie> "The input blocks, while compressed independently, have the last 32K of the previous block loaded as a preset dictionary to preserve the compression effectiveness of deflating in a single thread. This can be turned off using the -i or --independent option, so that the blocks can be decompressed independently for partial error recovery or for random access." Okay.
01:58:56 <int-e> "The input blocks, while compressed independently, have the last 32K of the previous block loaded as a preset dictionary..." oh. decompression isn't parallelized
01:58:59 <shachaf> cc -Wl,--format=binary -Wl,file -Wl,--format=default
01:59:13 <shachaf> You also want -Wl,-z,noexecstack if you do that, otherwise it makes the stack executable.
01:59:47 <fizzie> Fun fact: Go 1.16 added a built-in way for embedding binary assets.
01:59:58 <shachaf> But someone pointed out there's another trick: .incbin directives in assembly.
02:00:09 <shachaf> I made a note to investigate it because I think it seemed a bit nicer or something.
02:00:40 <fizzie> (You can embed a single file as a []byte, or as a string, or a bunch of files as an object that implements an interface that you can ask to open individual files from.)
02:00:56 <zzo38> Something I wanted is a preprocessor command in C to include arbitrary files as data; I read that it has been made a proposal, using a #embed command. (I don't know if any compiler supports this yet)
02:01:21 <fizzie> https://golang.org/pkg/embed/ -- the "special comments" syntax is a little weird, but I appreciate not having to pick between the three dozen aftermarket data-embedding packages.
02:01:35 <fizzie> Yeah, there's a C23 proposal for #embed.
02:02:07 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2592.htm
02:04:30 <int-e> Ye/Nay/Abstain... wait, were there 4 or 3 abstentions?
02:05:37 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2516.pdf page 23 or so.
02:08:54 <fizzie> And while we're at it, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2628.htm has more discussion and another poll: "Do we want to allow #embed to appear in any context that is different from an initialization of a character array?" => 5-8-6 "leaning in the direction of no but not clear"
02:12:23 <fizzie> There's also a defer proposal for C23. And a quadruple-stack paper introducing type inference (`auto`) and lambdas. I don't follow things closely enough to guess how likely they're to make it.
02:14:41 <int-e> surely the first one will be deferred to a later version :P
02:15:54 <fizzie> The secure_clear / memset_explicit function seems to be likely to get into C23, FWIW.
02:17:52 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, iirc you can concatenate zlib streams to get a valid zlib stream
02:18:04 <kmc> re on-demand loading: isn't that basically accomplished by paging anyway
02:18:28 <kmc> .data isn't really copied into memory in full when your program starts, it's only mapped into memory and then copied on demand
02:18:47 <kmc> although with relocations and stuff there may be a lot of "demand" before the program even starts
02:18:55 <zzo38> I think that #embed should be allowed anywhere, but it should be optimized for the case of appearing inside of a character array.
02:25:15 <kmc> what would it mean elsewhere?
02:26:48 <zzo38> It would expand to a sequence of numbers (one for each byte in the input file) separated by commas.
02:27:30 <zzo38> Inside of the initialization of a char array though, this expansion should be bypassed and it should be optimized.
02:27:53 <zzo38> (An alternative would be for it to be expanded as a string literal.)
02:33:17 <zzo38> (At least, it is my opinion.)
02:59:40 <zzo38> (This way, it can work even if the preprocessor is used alone.)
03:20:26 <kmc> zzo38: yes, I suppose it could be a useful feature for other languages, not just C
03:20:39 <kmc> I was looking into using CPP with OpenSCAD the other day, although I forgot why
03:21:18 <kmc> I already wrote my own custom preprocessor for OpenSCAD too, but that is for a specific purpose and not general
03:21:26 <zzo38> As long as the tokenizing is similar, the C proprocessor could be used.
03:21:42 <kmc> yeah, it's very similar to C on a lexical level
03:22:34 <kmc> https://www.openscad.org/cheatsheet/
03:22:49 <kmc> maybe the only weird lexical thing are the "modifier characters" which you can prefix to any tree node
03:23:19 <kmc> also I guess variables starting with $ are not in C
03:23:32 <kmc> and there's 'include' and 'use', both of which use <...> as pathname delimeters
03:23:39 <kmc> why, I have no idea, probably just to make it look like C
03:27:58 <kmc> part of me feels that something like OpenSCAD should really be an embedded DSL in a general-purpose lang (and indeed there are embeddings for Python and Haskell and probably others)
03:28:11 <kmc> but it's also kind of nifty for it to be its own thing
03:30:52 <fizzie> Variables with a $ in them are a "common extension" in C, I imagine they work pretty widely in preprocessors too.
03:30:57 <fizzie> (C11 J.5.2p1: "Characters other than the underscore _, letters, and digits, that are not part of the basic source character set (such as the dollar sign `$`, or characters in national character sets) may appear in an identifier.")
03:34:04 <fizzie> Fun thing about C and identifiers: almost all universal character names are legal in identifiers (it's not by Unicode class or anything, it's by including vast ranges of characters), and GCC error messages translate them into UTF-8 when output. Hence things like...
03:34:08 <fizzie> `` echo 'void func(void) {} int main(void) { \ufefffunc(); }' | gcc -x c - -o /dev/null -c
03:34:09 <HackEso> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:37: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘func’; did you mean ‘func’? [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
03:35:07 <fizzie> (U+FE47 .. U+FFFD inclusive are for example all legal.)
03:35:58 <fizzie> (As well as U+3040 .. U+D7FF inclusive.)
03:38:09 <zzo38> It seems like it should allow them, if it allows non-ASCII characters at all, then any bytes with the high bit set should be allowed, whether they are valid UTF-8 or not. If it allows escapes like that, then \ufeff should just be converted as UTF-8 and compiled as such, presumably (except I think Windows uses UTF-16, so then it on Windows it would use UTF-16 instead)
03:39:45 <zzo38> kmc: It look like the "include" command in OpenSCAD is using <...>; if you are using the C preprocessor then presumably you will not need the OpenSCAD include command since you can use the C include command instead. But, OpenSCAD uses # as a operator, which might conflict with the C preprocessor. Other than that, it look like it could be used with the C preprocessor.
03:42:22 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, an embedded DSL in something else would be another way; looking at it, I think perhaps as an extension to PostScript
03:42:53 <zzo38> (which already has many of these things, but not 3D nor animations)
03:44:20 <kmc> 3D PostScript would be interesting
03:47:50 <zzo38> (Actually, 3D and animations are a few of the features I wanted in the next version of PostScript. Although, I don't expect they are going to make another one (they specifically said they won't), so someone else would have to do it. I had other ideas of new features too, as well as a few removed features.)
03:48:54 <zzo38> (Removed features would include DSC (which is obsolete, since you would use PDF or something like that instead), the /PageCount system parameter (only applicable to printers, not to computers), the job server, and a few other things.)
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09:36:24 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81544&oldid=81338 * Hakerh400 * (+53) Update the hello-world example
09:58:17 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Fun fact: Go 1.16 added a built-in way for embedding binary assets." => rustc has a builtin for this, called include_bytes!, which is a compile-time macro that reads the whole binary contents of a file (the name given as the parameter of the macro) and gives a literal of a byte array
09:59:10 <b_jonas> and, if you want, you can bind that to a global name that you can access from a C program that you link the rust object file into
10:02:48 <b_jonas> "<kmc> 3D PostScript would be interesting" => don't we have like two of them? PovRay for raytracing, and another one whose name I don't remember for 3D printing and possibly other CNC?
10:04:58 <zzo38> 3D PostScript might be suitable for implementations that support a output device with 3D (which might be one that can render 3D and then make the result an image which can be used on a 2D output device,); not for general use. The same is true of animation; it won't work if the output is to a printer or to a still picture file, but can be suitable for screen output, or animated GIF/PNG
10:06:14 <b_jonas> Taneb: possibly. I'm not much into machining or 3D printing so I just didn't bother to remember its name
10:06:39 <b_jonas> (or plasma cutting etc, let's not be exclusive of other CNC tasks in favor of the two most common ones)
10:08:42 <Taneb> I messed around with it a little a while back
10:12:51 <nakilon> 20:49:58 <kmc> G1 X113.778 Y85.60300000000001 E0.1142
10:12:57 <nakilon> and you ran out of 3d printer ink
10:14:46 <nakilon> is there a difference between ` and `` when you talk to HackEso?
10:15:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: see the very unfinished https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso page
10:16:21 <b_jonas> and yes, plasma cutting and turning (machining an object on a lathe) are 2D tasks, not 3D (or perhaps 3D tasks, not 4D if you want to count time as an axis, but then apparently even during the console wars, 2D video games weren't sold as 3D on that basis),
10:16:43 <b_jonas> I'm just saying I'm not much into these and don't have a workshop where I'm doing anything like that, 2D or 3D, CNC or not
10:17:24 <b_jonas> about the most complicated such operation I do at home is resewing a button onto a shirt
10:19:21 <nakilon> do you guys have dreams where you solve some programming problem but when you wake up you don't remember the solution?
10:20:16 <Taneb> Yeah, occasionally
10:20:27 <zzo38> Yes, sometimes I do
10:20:44 <zzo38> (although, maybe sometimes that isn't an actual solution anyways)
10:26:34 <nakilon> are there any alternative dc implementations?
10:27:30 <nakilon> I remember that it has some problem with input (like detecting the EOF) so to solve puzzles you had to edit the input to make it parsable by your dc code
10:27:54 <nakilon> it sucked but there was no solution; I wonder if there is any alternative implementation that solves these problems
10:39:31 <b_jonas> nakilon: there are two, aren't there? the GNU one https://www.gnu.org/software/bc/ and the FreeBSD one are independent implementations I think
10:40:18 <b_jonas> and the solution is to just not use dc, it's an obsolete tool
10:41:28 <b_jonas> I don't keep an OpenBSD core source tree on my hard disk anymore, so I can't easily check what implementations these use, but I do believe it has a dc in its core
10:41:57 <b_jonas> http://man.openbsd.org/dc suggests so
10:42:21 <b_jonas> and it can't use GNU bc because that's under the GNU PL which is an incompatible license for the OpenBSD core
10:43:24 <nakilon> I suppose they implement the same spec
10:43:52 <nakilon> "just not use dc, it's an obsolete tool "
10:44:21 <nakilon> solving things in dc was fun
10:44:25 <b_jonas> yes yes, a few people write dc obfuscations
10:44:43 <nakilon> the "obfuscation" is relative
10:44:44 <b_jonas> but when you do, you don't get to complain about what you want to add to dc, because the whole point is that they run on the users' existing dc
10:44:50 <b_jonas> that they already had installed on their computer back then
10:45:01 <b_jonas> these days even that doesn't work, because debian just doesn't install dc by default
10:50:33 <b_jonas> suddenly I'm reminded of this old thing:
10:50:40 <zzo38> I still use dc for some calculations
10:51:07 <b_jonas> \uppercase{\def\ma{^^*}\def\mo{^^4}\def\mu{^^8 }} \message{\^^-^^!^^`^^5^^3^^4^^`^^!^^.^^/^^4^^(^^%^^2 \^^-^^/^^`^^%\^^-^^5^^`^^(^^!^^#^^+^^%^^2}\bye
10:52:32 <nakilon> isn't it missing the "Stack-based" category? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dc
10:54:36 <nakilon> wow I didn't know about this category https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Before_1993
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11:21:38 <esowiki> [[Dc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81545&oldid=75741 * Zzo38 * (+25) +[[Category:Stack-based]]
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13:54:33 <int-e> hmm I'm missing a `git` lowlevel command... how do I switch branches without updating the working directory (I don't care about the index much)...
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14:09:24 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81546&oldid=81540 * EnilKoder * (-49) /* Chat */
14:17:31 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81547&oldid=81546 * EnilKoder * (+443) /* Logic and Control Structures */
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14:49:04 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess that'd really be a matter of changing .git/HEAD without doing anything else, but I don't know what command would do that either. I guess all the `git reset` modes "deference that pointer" in the sense of affecting the current branch's head, rather than what the current branch is.
14:51:43 <fizzie> Maybe `git symbolic-ref -m "I'm a real git wizard" HEAD <something>`?
14:56:00 <int-e> Plausible... hmm. does the -m end up in the reflog? I'll try later.
14:57:13 <fizzie> Yeah, -m seemed to be the message for the reflog.
14:57:43 <int-e> Ah, right, it's written in the manpage if you actually read the part describing -m.
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15:28:28 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81548&oldid=81520 * Not applicable * (+514) forgot to do newline action; also added stupidExpr
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17:39:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81549&oldid=81547 * EnilKoder * (+553)
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17:42:00 <kmc> 03:17 < b_jonas> about the most complicated such operation I do at home is resewing a button onto a shirt
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17:42:53 <kmc> see i consistently fail at that :P
17:42:53 <kmc> i'm terrible at hand sewing, and I've tried enough to know that I won't magically get better with a small amount of practice
17:42:53 <kmc> I either need a LOT of practice or some insight into what I'm doing wrong
17:42:53 <kmc> it's the same with makeup
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17:54:30 <arseniiv> how do you comprehend via visual means that Cauchy distribution has no mean?..
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17:57:01 <arseniiv> I come to think that’s not possible to achieve. If we use the law of big numbers, we need to get an impression about the convolution of 1 / (x² + 1) with itself. I don’t know how to do that via low-dimensional geometric intuition
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19:28:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81550&oldid=81284 * Heavpoot * (+401) Add esolangs discord (with blessing from owner this time!)
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20:01:03 <esowiki> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81551&oldid=76706 * Not applicable * (-17) use interwiki link instead of external link
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20:11:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81552&oldid=54494 * Not applicable * (+333) Move implementations?
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22:06:09 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81553&oldid=81544 * Hakerh400 * (+2021) explain escaped types
22:09:03 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81554&oldid=81553 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
22:09:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81555&oldid=81306 * Heavpoot * (+121)
22:09:55 <nakilon> "how do I switch branches without updating the working directory "
22:10:03 <nakilon> I can't imagine why would you want this
22:10:13 <nakilon> but you could create a new branch from here
22:10:36 <nakilon> do stuff and then merge it to where you want
22:11:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81556&oldid=75493 * Heavpoot * (+265)
22:16:39 <fizzie> I imagine that was switch as in to an already existing branch.
22:19:42 <int-e> it's a bit of an abuse of version control... the repo contents is actually a backup updated by rsync
22:20:02 <int-e> and I have some feature branches on top for actual development
22:20:29 <int-e> so this comes up when I accidentally sync while in a feature branch... I want to get back to the main branch without undoing the sync
22:21:30 <int-e> (in practice so far I've just resynced, it's not so bad)
22:38:18 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81557&oldid=81554 * Hakerh400 * (+323) add syntactic sugar and update hello-world example once again
22:39:55 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81558&oldid=81557 * Hakerh400 * (-102)
22:46:01 <zzo38> Some features of the Free Hero Mesh programming language are unusual, such as the gosub sigil (working like the GOSUB in BASIC, rather than like modern programming languages, and with a sigil; I don't know if Perl has something like this?), the mixture of S-expression-like syntax with RPN (WebAssembly also has this), the "chain" instruction, the way that arrays are working, etc.
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23:00:49 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81559&oldid=78453 * Zzo38 * (+78)
23:02:11 <zzo38> The "Prehistory of esoteric programming languages" article mentions EXPLOR and BEFLIX. Do you have any documentation of those programming languages?
23:10:10 <zzo38> O, there is an extension in Perl to use GOSUB like in BASIC (although it does not have its own sigil).
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23:23:24 <ArthurStrong> Oh, BTW. John Nash's bio states it has written computers programs. But I couldn't google them. Anyone heard/seen?
23:23:44 <ArthurStrong> That bio, of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Beautiful_Mind_(book)
23:26:01 <ArthurStrong> https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=uNPOmXAj1ScC&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Beautiful+Mind&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiloYDZy8zvAhXSHXcKHVEzCP8Q6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=computer%20programs&f=false
23:27:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81560&oldid=81552 * Zzo38 * (+253) INTERCAL and TECO
23:30:01 <nakilon> git is something you quickly forget when you don't use it much
23:31:13 <nakilon> usually at the office I'm building CI so git is something that others are asking me about
23:31:42 <fizzie> Sort of on that note (Nash, not git), UK just published the final design of the new £50 note that features Turing, https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news/2021/march/the-new-50-note-unveiled
23:31:42 <nakilon> now when I didn't work for a while the commands are forgotten ..D
23:32:04 <zzo38> I don't use git, because I prefer fossil. (Although, I do not use all of the features of fossil, anyways.)
23:32:31 <nakilon> I still remember only the main principles such as the merging should be only one-direcitonal
23:32:32 <zzo38> I don't know about what you say about John Nash. I have not heard/seen either
23:32:58 <nakilon> and that there should be only one machine that merges to a specific branch
23:33:19 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: that's a shame. It's like hidden offline somewhere, if it's still...
23:34:06 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: any reason using fossil instead of something more popular?
23:34:47 <int-e> well there's git the tool... and then there's workflows that keep people sane while they use it.
23:34:56 <nakilon> and never squash after pushing
23:35:10 <nakilon> (better not squash at all)
23:35:21 <int-e> my question was firmly aimed at the former... the workflow (if you can call it that) that motivated it is not exactly sane.
23:36:20 <int-e> which is okay only because this is not a collaboration with anybody
23:37:51 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> git is something you quickly forget when you don't use it much" => also it's changing. there's now a git switch command. I had a git switch alias in my config. I had to rename it now.
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23:38:56 <b_jonas> I would just use the command instead of the alias, but it doesn't have a -b option to create a branch, so it doesn't really replace my alias.
23:39:01 <fizzie> I've got one of those weirdo workflows too, for the repo where I keep all edited config files for the systems I'm responsible for in.
23:39:07 <b_jonas> (the alias is just to checkout with a -- after the branch name)
23:39:15 <fizzie> It's got a "dist" branch (checked out into a separate worktree) that contains the completely untouched config files as installed by the packages, and then a different branch which is where all the live versions live (together with the machinery to deploy changes). Whenever there's an upgrade that changes one of the edited files, I copy the new dist files into the dist branch, and then do a merge commit
23:39:21 <fizzie> from the dist branch into the live one. That way "trivial" changes (like, changes to comments or default settings I haven't changed or whatnot) need no manual work.
23:39:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: that doesn't sound likea weirdo workflow
23:39:40 <nakilon> b_jonas I read the docs but can't understand what does it do
23:39:55 <nakilon> is it like checkout + pull?
23:40:31 <fizzie> Maybe it's not that weird, I don't know. I guess if you think of the dist branch as like an "upstream", and think of the other as keeping a long-lived downstream customization branch, it starts to resemble a regular software development flow more.
23:40:36 <nakilon> # Optionally a new branch could be created with either -c, -C
23:40:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81561&oldid=81560 * Zzo38 * (+190)
23:41:06 <nakilon> (lambdabot should learn some another command prefix because people are used to use > for quoting)
23:41:11 <int-e> nakilon: it's painful that it's -c and not -b
23:41:15 <fizzie> I suspect I wouldn't have bothered with the whole thing if Debian's config file update process would learn about merging, but it doesn't. And I guess in the general case it might not have available the clean file from the previous version, maybe.
23:41:37 <nakilon> int-e git won't be git if it was obvious and non-painful
23:41:58 <b_jonas> nakilon: I don't think it pulls. it just switches the working copy to a different branch, merging the working copy changes with the differences between the currently checked out commit and what you're switching to.
23:41:59 <int-e> must be a different kind of git then
23:42:28 <int-e> I find mercurial painful... not conceptually but because the commands are all slightly wrong, coming from git :-P
23:42:36 <b_jonas> nakilon: ah, there's a -c switch. I might try to use it then, but I won't remember it. it's supposed to be -b . git checkout uses -b , and -c is used for something very different in git diff
23:43:17 <zzo38> ArthurStrong: I find fossil less confusing than git, mainly.
23:43:25 <b_jonas> sorry no, -c is used for something very different in git log
23:43:35 <nakilon> b_jonas oh is it like git stash git pull git stash apply?
23:44:00 <nakilon> idk why it was -b in the first place
23:44:01 <fizzie> int-e: I do Mercurial (of sorts) at work, and find much the same. Also, there's all kinds of "advanced" features (like the draft-vs.-public commit phases, and all the "evolve" stuff) that we make some use of, that I keep forgetting about.
23:44:14 <int-e> I'm slow to adapt, still using `checkout`
23:44:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, I think it's like (git checkout "$*" --) which is what my alias does, but I'm not sure, the command is new to me, I never used it, you'll have to ask someone who keeps u with git
23:44:44 <int-e> fizzie: do you also get upset about `hg grep`?
23:45:09 <b_jonas> I use mercurial for looking at hackenv history
23:45:13 <int-e> (I use `git grep` *a lot*. I have yet to find a use for `hg grep`)
23:45:21 <nakilon> search in changes? git still doesn't really have it
23:45:28 <fizzie> I do have to say the TUI interactive commit (`hg commit -i`) thing is kind of nice, compared to git's menu-driven patch/hunk/whatever thing.
23:45:37 <zzo38> (I also like the artifact format of Fossil)
23:45:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Mercurial at work?
23:45:59 <nakilon> I always thought git log -p | grep is what works until I discovered the case when it didn't show some commits and it was unknown why
23:46:26 <int-e> nakilon: I've never missed it. It's such a rare thing to want that I can git log --patch and grep that.
23:46:30 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: yeah, this is a real problem of git - its UI
23:46:53 <nakilon> int-e --patch is the same as -p, isn't it? and it happened to not work
23:46:59 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: it's not the only problem with git
23:47:12 <b_jonas> nakilon: try git log -p -c
23:47:22 <int-e> `git grep` tends to be much faster than grepping the checked out tree... and it ignores non-tracked files (like compilation artefacts) for free.
23:47:23 <HackEso> git: 'grep` tends to be much faster than grepping the checked out tree... and it ignores non-tracked files (like compilation artefacts) for free.' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
23:47:24 <b_jonas> without -c it might not show stuff
23:47:51 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: I don't feel like ranting about it today. you might find my rants in the channel logs.
23:48:09 <nakilon> ripgrep also ignores .gitignore
23:48:25 <nakilon> and can be forces to stop ignoring it by flag, env var or local or global config
23:48:48 <b_jonas> I've used both svn and git at work.
23:49:01 <int-e> nakilon: the thing is... these tools are highly polarizing. you get used to one of them, you're likely to dislike all others.
23:49:20 <int-e> it's almost as bad as with text editors.
23:49:22 <b_jonas> int-e: I dislike all of them, but I dislike subverions much less than the others
23:49:23 <nakilon> b_jonas thanks I will the next time
23:49:28 <shachaf> I'm used to git, and I also don't particularly like git.
23:49:48 <zzo38> There are some things I dislike about fossil, so I had started to write my own implementation, although I didn't write much of it yet. (Someone else has had a similar idea, too.)
23:49:56 <b_jonas> and of course I'm still hoping for ais523's vaporware version control system (scapegoat)
23:49:57 <shachaf> int-e: Subversion at least supports large files and large repositories, unlike git.
23:50:23 <nakilon> int-e grepping isn't something you "have to so often" and "you are disallowed to install the tool you need"
23:50:46 <fizzie> int-e: I think it's good that both HackEso and lambdabot have command prefixes that keep having false positives, then each can think "at least I'm not the only one".
23:50:48 <int-e> it's something I do often
23:52:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. I had a plan at some point to use longer IRC prefixes, specifically the triplets -0= =0- 0=- 0-= -=0 =-0 , and I might still use those if I ever make an IRC bot that needs a prefix
23:52:46 <b_jonas> also jevalbot has configuration options to (1) only accept the prefix if there's a space after it, which is useful because I used ] as the prefix and irc nicks can start with ] ,
23:53:10 <b_jonas> and (2) to ignore the short prefix on some channels, accepting only invocation by its nickname
23:53:22 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
23:53:27 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
23:53:59 <b_jonas> but EgoBot has been almost certainly superceded by HackEgo
23:54:06 <int-e> Oh I've never realized that lambdabot's "> " is not listed there.
23:54:23 <nakilon> cool, my client makes it visible which bots are missing from online
23:54:27 <fizzie> Yeah, EgoBot is no more, but I've kind of been thinking about reusing it for esowiki once it *has* commands.
23:54:47 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/uTT6pYS.png
23:54:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? why would you add commands to esowiki instead of to HackEso?
23:55:12 <b_jonas> I mean HackEso already has a prefix
23:55:13 <int-e> :t id -- there's also this, but the : is not treated as a generic command prefix.
23:55:21 <fizzie> Because some things are just not feasible on HackEso.
23:55:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: you control it and you can add builtin commands to it, how can anything be not feasable in HackEso but feasable in esowiki?
23:56:13 <fizzie> They run on different systems.
23:56:24 <fizzie> Well, sort of, anyway.
23:56:25 <b_jonas> so that's why HackEso no longer has a copy of the logs
23:57:29 <fizzie> Although that's something I was thinking of fixing by exposing the logs to it over a network API of some sort. Not that I've made any progress on that.
23:58:25 <shachaf> fizzie: Is that for a special project or a general thing?
23:59:07 <fizzie> Also they're not *that* different systems, one's just a namespace-based container on the other, so I imagine I could arrange for the files to be visible. But the logs are no longer text files either, so.
23:59:12 <nakilon> btw I don't see a Search button in logs
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00:00:08 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, and I think that's exactly the problem that fizzie wants to solve by commands in esowiki
00:00:19 <fizzie> shachaf: General thing. But with that "of sorts" qualifier. It's the thing that https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext hints at (if you search for "Mercurial").
00:00:28 <nakilon> then have a look at https://github.com/whitequark/irclogger
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00:01:01 <fizzie> Not interested in switching to a third-party system for the logs.
00:01:20 <shachaf> I knew Facebook was doing these things and I guess I heard vague rumors elsewhere.
00:01:43 <nakilon> not sure though why there is no Search field in the link that is in repo description but it's here for example https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/ruby/2021-03-26#;
00:02:38 <b_jonas> nakilon: if you want to host a searcher, you can always download the logs from the server and make your own
00:03:02 <zzo38> I think the prefix can be e.g. "hajfbhalfjblajdfbot: " to publicly command hajfbhalfjblajdfbot, and to privately command a bot you can send a private message and no prefix is needed.
00:03:45 <zzo38> (And, if a potential loop is detected, it should use a NOTICE command to respond, in order to break the loop.)
00:04:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: I assume that's just an example, and you're aware that Freenode's nick max length is 16
00:04:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, it is just an example.
00:04:58 <b_jonas> I do wish more bots responded to their name too besides their short prefix, so you can more easily find out what their short invocation prefix is
00:05:01 <nakilon> oh you reminded me I wanted to make a service for Steam
00:05:23 <fizzie> I was writing a Z80 emulator bot at one point, and for that I was planning to use that schema (of just "nick[:,] " as a prefix for public messages, and nothing for private), but never got around doing that.
00:05:25 <b_jonas> fungot does at least respond to its name
00:05:25 <fungot> b_jonas: send to someone else have already liked it, since our project is due to an another option will be faster.,
00:05:34 <fungot> fizzie: done with class me ladki ne bra me chupa liya. decimal inch of snow. enjoy ur crab was running abt getting food before u go in? i miss you
00:05:44 <fizzie> In a very useful way, yes.
00:05:50 <b_jonas> though I think I didn't make termbot respond to its nick, so I'm guilty too
00:06:31 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: help
00:06:51 <b_jonas> yeah, it technically responds but not in a useful way that lets you discover anything
00:06:53 <nakilon> there is a char limit for nickname in Steam that is often exceeded when it's in Russian but I've managed to fir the nickname I needed by sqeezing the spaces, capitalizing the words and swapping the letters that look the same, and I noticed that usually it's too hard for people and they cut and ruin their initial ideas
00:07:29 <b_jonas> nakilon: is it often exceeded in Russian because it's measured in utf-8 bytes?
00:07:51 <zzo38> If you need information to discover, you could include it in the real name field maybe
00:07:56 <fizzie> multibot's way of hooking up the scripts to respond to things is pretty weird. Like, the ` prefix for HackEso is set up by having a file called multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd, because '`' is 0x60.
00:08:31 <nakilon> b_jonas, yep, every russian char is twice large
00:09:58 <nakilon> irb(main):003:0> 'ИисусХристосПорноЗвезда'.bytes.size
00:09:58 <nakilon> irb(main):004:0> 'ИиcycXpиcтocПopнo3вeздa'.bytes.size
00:14:46 <nakilon> also sometimes I have a feeling like there are two interfaces for change the nickname in Steam one of which is cutting harder than another one
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00:48:51 <nakilon> modern competitive programming fans are something
00:49:11 <nakilon> all these people who put the words "dynamic programming" in every message
00:49:50 <nakilon> I shared the link https://blog.cryptohack.org/twitter-secrets and they decided it's spam since it's in English )
01:32:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81562&oldid=81550 * Baidicoot * (+18) /* Others (Unofficial) */
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02:25:36 <nakilon> if median absolute difference between original histogram and histogram of gauss blurred (1) image in the saturation HSV band is somewhere between 0.18 and 0.4
02:26:04 <nakilon> then it's a nice looking high resolution image
02:46:13 <arcsor5> competitive programming fans on quora ask stupid questions like "is iq 145 too low for programming" and "is 20 years old too late to become good at competitive programming"
02:50:40 <esowiki> [[User:Zseri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81563&oldid=53103 * Zseri * (-18)
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03:11:39 <nakilon> arcsor5 attention whoring? idk, I rarely hit quora but there is a subreddit that sounds like your quotes
03:12:11 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/mensa/
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06:45:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81564&oldid=81562 * Palaiologos * (-11)
07:01:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81565&oldid=81564 * Palaiologos * (+94)
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07:13:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81566&oldid=81565 * Citrons * (+0) s/below/above
07:31:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81567&oldid=81566 * LyricLy * (-2) Fix wording
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08:27:19 <ais523> <kmc> i should be able to run any program with --dump-source and get all the source code straight out of the binary ← I wrote the Windows installer component of aimake (used by, e.g., NetHack4) to be a quine in that sense
08:27:29 <ais523> it can install the source code for both the program it's installing, and the installer itself
08:27:42 <ais523> although it isn't a proper quine, it just reads its own source from disk while preparing the installer
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08:37:10 <ais523> <fizzie> Sort of on that note (Nash, not git), UK just published the final design of the new £50 note that features Turing ← I'm not sure why we still even have £50 notes, if you withdraw a large amount of money from the bank it usually comes as £20s
08:38:09 <ais523> (I've been present for bank transfers that were implemented using the old-fashioned method of asking for a large amount of physical cash from one bank and taking it to a different bank in person; this may still be the fastest method, although it's somewhat vulnerable to thieves and I wouldn't do it myself)
08:40:36 <ais523> hmm, do we really need [[Category:Stupid family]]?
08:41:11 <ais523> I have half a mind to just speedy it as "unapproved category", but there's no real urgency and it's probably worth discussing over IRC first
08:41:47 <nakilon> when I get cash I choose the largest banknote and it's 5000 RUR that is around 60 ƒ I guess
08:42:10 <nakilon> though not everyone has a change for it, yeah
08:42:28 <nakilon> but fastfood always have a change
08:42:37 <ais523> looks like 100 RUR has a very similar value to £1 (marginally higher)
08:43:01 <ais523> so a 5000 RUR note is a close equivalent to a £50 note
08:43:30 <myname> ais523: i assume it's from the same guy who made the only 2 entries?
08:43:32 <ais523> many shops here don't accept £50 notes, though, there's a perception that £50 notes are only used by criminals, which means that most non-criminals choose not to use them
08:43:52 <nakilon> there are 5 RUR banknotes in theory https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%8C#%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B
08:44:10 <myname> i don't even know if the languages in particular are that special
08:44:12 <nakilon> but in practice you'll find only 50 RUR because lower is replaced by coins
08:44:30 <myname> like, why is stupidbasic stupid? it's just a basic dialect
08:44:33 <ais523> in the UK, the largest commonly used coin is £2 and smallest banknote is £5
08:45:04 <myname> ais523: here, shops have to accept every note if it's within reasonable margin of purchase
08:45:14 <ais523> (technically £5 coins exist, but they're basically just novelties to celebrate special occasions, despite technically being real coins)
08:45:41 <myname> like, if you purchase something for 5€, the shop _has_ to accept a 50€ note
08:45:47 <nakilon> "there's a perception that £50 notes are only used by criminals" -- the way you non-verbally behave makes a great difference in how more likely you'll be considered a criminal
08:46:06 <ais523> the rules here are complex, you have to accept any note to cover a debt, but if you haven't agreed to a sale yet, you can put more or less whatever requirements you like on what currency you'll accept in exchange
08:46:18 <nakilon> (also maybe I'm a criminal?)
08:46:50 <myname> ais523: also, regarding the category, i like how it has exactly 2 entries and the description is "some languages don't share some of the aspects"
08:46:50 <ais523> (although the credit card companies generally require the businesses they deal with to agree not to discriminate against credit card users, as part of their license to be able to accept credit cards)
08:47:15 <ais523> myname: I noted that, it's likeable in an amusement sense but dislikeable in the being-a-reasonable-category sense
08:50:05 <ais523> on a UK keyboard, shift-3
08:50:15 <ais523> it's a pretty common character over here so we have an easy shortcut for it
08:50:28 <ais523> € is altgr-4 because all the reasonable shift-combinations were already taken
08:50:32 <nakilon> oh I'm using US layout I guess
08:50:34 <ais523> at the time the euro was invented
08:51:02 <ais523> it's between space and right ctrl, replacing the right alt
08:51:07 <ais523> because you don't normally need two alt keys
08:51:25 <nakilon> oh £ is opt-3 on my layout
08:51:37 <myname> here, on altgr + numbers, i have ¹²³¼½¬{[]}\
08:51:54 <ais523> on Windows it appears to be equivalent to ctrl-alt in nearly all contexts; on X11 it gives access to a huge range of special characters
08:51:59 <myname> also being the main reason people hate that layput for programming
08:52:44 <nakilon> shift -- !@#$%^&*()_+ ;alt -- ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº–≠ ;alt+shift -- ⁄€‹›fifl‡°·‚—±
08:52:47 <ais523> oddly, Windows appears to have placed é on ctrl-alt-e / altgr-e on UK keyboards at some point, and some keyboards will even have an é on the bottom-right of the E key to illustrate that
08:52:52 <nakilon> (have fun whoever parses this day log)
08:53:50 <myname> the swiss keyboard is weird. it's the only one i know where caps lock + shift + letter does not necessarily equal to the letter without modifiers
08:54:06 <ais523> myname: oddly, I have {[]} on altgr-7890 despite the fact that I also have physical [ and ] keys (which are shiftable into { and })
08:54:20 <nakilon> I guess using Alt on Windows is something new at all
08:54:39 <ais523> UK keyboards actually have one more physical key than US keyboards do, between ' and Return
08:54:51 <ais523> it produces # unshifted and ~ shifted
08:54:55 <ais523> (where is ~ on a US keyboard?)
08:54:56 <myname> like, caps lock + a is ä, caps lock + shift + a is Ä instead of a
08:55:21 <ais523> nakilon: on Windows (also most Linux programs) Alt is used for keyboard navigation of GUI programs
08:55:23 <nakilon> \|«|» -- this is the key between ' and Enter for me
08:55:40 <ais523> there used to be underlined letters all over the interface (although nowadays the underlines normally only become visible if you hold Alt)
08:55:55 <ais523> holding alt and pressing an underlined letter is equivalent to clicking on the letter, or whatever it labels
08:56:10 <nakilon> ais523 yep, that's why I was surprised to hear about ctrl+alt+e
08:56:17 <myname> now i use alt to switch between irc channels, like god intended it
08:56:25 <ais523> nakilon: that still works with the *left* alt key
08:57:15 <nakilon> myname btw I changed Capslock to switch ENG/RUS
08:57:25 <ais523> I rebound caps lock to compose
08:57:31 <myname> i changes capslock to a global push to talk
08:57:51 <ais523> I still have a caps lock (which is useful on occasion), but it really doesn't deserve a single key of its own so I put it on shift-shift
08:57:54 <nakilon> capslock is my Jump in games
08:58:10 <myname> ais523: not very intellij friendly
08:58:25 <ais523> what does intellij use caps lock for?
08:58:44 <ais523> what does it use that for?
08:59:03 <nakilon> clear RAM and stop lagging for a minute?
08:59:16 <ais523> what a bizarre binding
08:59:21 <ais523> I'd normally expect that to be on Ctrl-something
08:59:27 <ais523> (or Command-something on a Mac)
08:59:31 <myname> nakilon: no, that's alt+f4
08:59:52 <ais523> in most programs, alt-f4 causes additional lag, rather than removing it
08:59:58 <myname> ais523: i find it pretty reasonable, because it's something you are going to use very often
09:00:04 <ais523> this may be a consequence of them doing something like trying to recurse over all memory to free it
09:00:17 <ais523> myname: I find shift-shift fairly hard to press, compared to ctrl-letter
09:00:41 <myname> how so? ctrl is lower than shift and you have to reach the other key
09:00:42 <ais523> also, is this a window that lists open files, or a window that opens files?
09:01:14 <ais523> I move my hands quite a lot when typing, they move onto each other's halves of the keyboard frequently
09:01:27 <ais523> shift-shift forces me to move them much further apart than I'd normally have them, making it slower to type
09:01:32 <nakilon> the O letter isn't far from right Ctrl
09:01:48 <myname> what kind of maniac uses right ctrl?
09:01:56 <ais523> e.g. in the word "type", I type the "y" with my left hand because the right hand is covering "p" which is at the far end of the keyboard, that means my left hand is nowhere near left shift
09:02:05 <nakilon> idk, I don't open files on Windows at all
09:02:15 <nakilon> I mean I use only mouse there
09:02:51 <ais523> when using an IDE, typically I have a tree view of all the files in the source directory in a corner of the screen somewhere, and use a mouse to open files by clicking on that
09:03:22 <ais523> or even more commonly, use implicit open via search, "go to definition", etc.
09:03:37 <myname> that would mean i know where every file is
09:03:46 <nakilon> and on Macbook any Cmd+ combinations are handy because the Cmd is on both sides of Space so you press it with the 1st finger, not 5th
09:03:50 <ais523> I usually do, even at work
09:04:09 <myname> the project is far to big for that
09:04:25 <ais523> when I'm using Emacs, I will usually try to have all the files open simultaneously and just use C-x C-b to switch between them, or search
09:04:34 <nakilon> also on macOS I don't really close files -- I keep them all opened forever
09:04:38 <ais523> although it sounds like myname's projects would be too big for that, too
09:04:45 <nakilon> so it reduces the amount of openings too
09:05:16 <ais523> generally speaking, though, I like project structures which don't have many levels of hierarchy, just a few main directories and lots of files in each
09:05:22 <ais523> so there aren't many places I'd have to look for any given file
09:06:04 <myname> opening a couple thousand files at once sounds like a bad ide
09:06:48 <nakilon> oh btw, while on Windows you may open the modal file browsing dialog and click with your mouse on macOS you press Ctrl+Cmd+G in that dialog and it opens the small submodal window with a single field to chose the path by typing with autocomplete just like in Terminal
09:07:11 <nakilon> so I almost never click in the file browsing dialogs
09:07:39 <nakilon> oh, I mean, I navigate to the folder with that submodal and then click
09:08:23 <nakilon> would be cool if they also add the ability to chose the file in that submodal to make it even more handy
09:09:54 <nakilon> myname I don't edit thousands of files; if I only need to read them I read them in terminal, not IDE
09:10:21 <myname> that sounds like a weird way of programming
09:11:14 <nakilon> and I have terminal and ide opened the same amount of time because two displays
09:11:37 <myname> i have terminals open way more
09:11:49 <myname> how would i irc otherwise
09:16:39 <ais523> hmm, generally speaking it makes sense to have all the text/source files in the project you're working on in memory simultaneously
09:16:57 <ais523> a) text files generally aren't that large, so there's room, b) grepping an entire project is a common operation
09:17:15 <myname> yeah, but you usually don't know which files you are going to work on
09:17:32 <ais523> and c) if you load a file into memory, modern OSes will treat the file itself as swap backing the memory, so there's no actual cost in terms of how much else you can fit into memory
09:18:08 <ais523> hmm… do you think the source code for Windows, minus any binaries / assets / large data files / images / resources etc., comes to more or less than 1GB?
09:18:13 <ais523> I'd guess less, but I'm not sure
09:19:25 <ais523> grepping 1GB of data that's already in memory shouldn't take that long on a modern computer
09:21:18 <ais523> hmm… I wonder whether nontemporal reads would make a significant improvement for that sort of workflow?
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09:23:23 <nakilon> I tried to force myself to use the "Projects" in Sublime Text that is kind of opening a new window per project with its folder tree opened on the left
09:23:38 <ais523> modern processors are so fast that most algorithms are bottlenecked on either memory write or memory read, so explicit cache control hints can cause noticeable improvements
09:24:20 <nakilon> but: 1) if there is a folder in it with thousands of asset files it wastes time on rereading the file tree 2) it's harder to navigate between multiple windows rather than one opened all the time
09:25:31 <nakilon> yeah I guess you can blacklist the subfolder in the Project settings but that's a new config file
09:26:42 <ais523> asset files are such an issue for everything programming-related :-(
09:27:04 <kspalaiologos> ais523, that greatly depends on the storage complexity of the algorithm
09:27:05 <ais523> the best solution I know is to have them in a different tree from the source (e.g. assets/ and src/ as subdirectories of your main project directory)
09:27:34 <ais523> kspalaiologos: of course, but what I'm mostly focused on is making the linear-time algorithms faster
09:27:52 <ais523> I've been spending weeks looking at low-level processor performance in order to write the world's fastest FizzBuzz
09:28:03 <ais523> and I think I know how to do it, now, just can't be motivated to actually sit down and write the program
09:29:03 <ais523> but the basic idea is to have a small bytecode program in L1 cache, where each byte of program generates a byte of output, and where a full loop of the program generates 2400 lines of output
09:29:07 <kspalaiologos> oh, lol, i think i made the world's fastest fizzbuzz for the codegolf challenge
09:29:23 <ais523> I had the idea a while ago, forgot about it, then saw it on codegolf and got obsessed
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09:29:52 <ais523> all the answers there seem to use write(2) for output at the moment, which inherently bottlenecks you to a fairly low speed
09:30:35 <ais523> because it forces a memcpy of your data inside the kernel, which a) doubles your cache pressure and b) the copy loop itself is slow beacuse you can fizzbuzz as fast as a memcpy
09:30:46 <ais523> I've been looking into using vmsplice(2) but it's much harder to set up
09:30:54 <kspalaiologos> yep, i'm aware of that. i thought that we could probably make this thing bootable
09:30:59 <ais523> the idea is to make sure that the data never leaves the L2 cache
09:31:16 <ais523> oddly, that could actually be *faster* because you could make sure that the data never left the L*1* cache
09:31:23 <nakilon> codegolf.stackexchange.com is such a toxic place
09:31:48 <ais523> the reason the L2 cache needs to get involved in the first place is that kernel overhead is too high if you're just sending an L1-cache's worth of data with every system call
09:32:28 <nakilon> they were copying the puzzles from another website that had a rule "don't solve it publicly/collectively, don't share solutions" -- I mentioned it and they just started insulting me for that
09:32:33 <ais523> nakilon: how so? I really dislike Stack Exchange itself (the general attitude of the admin, and the software running it), but I've never had a problem with CGCC's community as people even if I disagree with many of their rules
09:32:53 <ais523> kspalaiologos: the trick is to make sure that you don't touch the page containing the written data until after it's already been read, otherwise you trigger a copy-on-write page fault
09:33:02 <nakilon> then I posted my 99 bottles solution that was the shortest among them but I censored it partially -- they deleted my submission, lol
09:33:21 <nakilon> kspalaiologos that was like 6 years ago
09:33:42 <kspalaiologos> nakilon, i can assure you that the community has changed a lot during these 6 years, most of the old regulars are gone now and the community is fairly fresh
09:33:57 <ais523> also, vmsplice is faster the simpler the page table is (it does a pagewalk), which means you ideally want to be using hugepages, and that makes it even harder to not touch the page containing the written data
09:34:00 <kspalaiologos> which is a bit of a shame, because i liked some of the old regulars, but i guess that it is how it is.
09:34:04 <nakilon> the stage when it's a phase of discussing the rules of the site, but they didn't want to discuss, they wanted to have fun only, kids
09:34:17 <ais523> Stack Exchange admin drove most of the better golfers away from the site, I think
09:34:57 <ais523> a partially censored solution would, I think, get deleted because it isn't a correct soultion
09:35:14 <ais523> problems copied from elsewhere would normally be copyright violations, though, and should be deleted because of that
09:35:21 <nakilon> but the correct solutions didn't have to exist there in the first place
09:35:31 <nakilon> because the website where they took the puzzle from is prohibiting it
09:35:46 <kspalaiologos> you shouldn't have posted anything then, and flagged the post to a moderator.
09:36:01 <nakilon> that's what I did and I got insults for that
09:36:23 <nakilon> on SO I even get bans for flagging
09:36:24 <kspalaiologos> well, this drama is 6 year old now, scratching the wound won't help probably
09:36:33 <ais523> 6 years ago is 2015, that would predate most of the current mods and most of the mods before then
09:36:35 <kspalaiologos> well yes, if you flag content that doesn't break the rules.
09:36:45 <nakilon> yep, that's why I don't visit that toxic place for years
09:36:49 <ais523> actually that might predate the first mod election?
09:37:09 <kspalaiologos> i respect your stance, but it's nice to give people another go
09:37:09 <nakilon> codegolf on SE has died for me when it was prohibited on SO
09:37:26 <kspalaiologos> codegolf is mildly recreational so it doesn't fit SO all that well
09:37:31 <ais523> anyway, I think a golf website could only reasonably have the rules of "please don't discuss these problems/solutions elsewhere" if the problems are fairly unique/unusual
09:37:46 <ais523> otherwise they'd be likely to be recreated by chance
09:37:49 <ais523> I don't know whether or not that was the case here
09:38:20 <ais523> kspalaiologos: fwiw, the SE *software* is so bad for a codegolf site that it's a good reason to not go there even if/when there's nothing wrong with the community
09:38:47 <ais523> I'm protesting against it by intentionally avoiding reputation, locking my account to 11 reputation permanently
09:39:01 <ais523> because the incentives for reputation go against what good golfing is
09:39:44 <nakilon> did they even realise finally that half of the problems they are posting isn't codegolf? I mean those problems that have the shortest solution as "for (;;) { if test( rand() ) break }"
09:40:14 <ais523> that would seem unlikely to be the shortest solution to something
09:40:18 <ais523> do you have an example?
09:40:57 <int-e> well, sometimes people count tokens
09:41:01 <ais523> the tersest solution to a problem is often very inefficient because "generate all possible answers then test to see if the answer is correct" is often shorter to express than actually trying to solve the problem efficiently
09:41:19 <ais523> but that's not quite the same
09:41:19 <kspalaiologos> ais523, how do you achieve locking yourself at 11rep
09:41:25 <nakilon> was years ago too; the point is that the problem does not fit the codegolf if it can be solved in just an hour of generating random solutions in a loop
09:41:31 <ais523> kspalaiologos: never post questions + community-wiki every answer
09:42:02 <ais523> int-e: there's a whole genre of esolangs that boils relevant keywords down to single bytes, that's pretty much replaced token-counting
09:42:24 <ais523> the hard part is trying to get the number of bytes for the plumbing down, too, things like parentheses and variable names can be very costly at that sort of scale
09:42:26 <kspalaiologos> nakilon, that's because of the golfing languages which i (and lots of other people) dislike
09:42:59 <ais523> I actually think golfing languages tell you more about programming and communication than regular languages
09:43:06 <nakilon> yeah that thing was making me leave too
09:43:32 <ais523> a) they tend to have relevant concepts as built-ins in the languages rather than needing you to write them out every time or use a library, meaning there's less busywork/copy-and-paste
09:43:47 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81568&oldid=79799 * Palaiologos * (-86) deadlink removal
09:43:49 <ais523> b) they try to strip communication down to its essentials, trying to capture the essence of just what it means to describe a problem
09:43:58 <nakilon> perl, python, ruby, haskell, J, K -- it wasn't enough for them, they made the stupid golfscript, that is kind of the same as HQ9++
09:44:17 <ais523> nah, HQ9++ is generally disliked, and golfscript is actually very verbose as golfing languages go
09:44:35 <nakilon> golfscript didn't even have a standard
09:44:47 <nakilon> some guy just made it up and was editing it every day, lol
09:45:01 <ais523> kspalaiologos: your opinion is close to mine on this
09:45:20 <kspalaiologos> i even myself wanted to make an ultimate golflang which in the end failed because it required too much effort :P
09:45:48 <kspalaiologos> like, coming up with the right set of builtins and syntax is hard, because for example your usual stack-based code probably isn't _the_ smallest as it gets
09:45:48 <ais523> although, the way I see it, sometimes the interest is in developing the tersest algorithm, and seeing how hard it is to express the algorithm in a golfing language is a good way to define how complex the algorithm is
09:46:08 <ais523> kspalaiologos: I've actually been working on one in parallel with this conversation
09:46:21 <kspalaiologos> but some people on CGCC literally admitted to run a bruteforcing tool to find solutions to problems.
09:46:35 <ais523> I've done that too, but only in very low-level esolangs
09:46:54 <ais523> I have a brute-forcer Brain-Flak
09:46:56 <nakilon> oh, when I was saying about finding the solution in a loop I didn't mean they generate the code in a loop
09:46:57 <kspalaiologos> i did an elaborate bruteforce for Malbolge, and probably nothing else.
09:47:12 <ais523> that solves problems like "given x above y on the stack, find code that replaces them with y above x+y"
09:47:14 <nakilon> the code they submit is a loop that generates the STDOUT solutions to STDIN
09:47:42 <ais523> nakilon: there used to be a lot of cheating by not actually answering the problem in the past, but that's mostly been banned nowadays
09:47:43 <kspalaiologos> well, codegolf is really specific and somewhat unfair, yeah, that's why each language has it's own leaderboard
09:47:50 <ais523> the main cheating that happens nowadays is in I/O conventions
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09:48:28 <int-e> I'd imagine brute force to be fair game.
09:49:04 <int-e> if a whole challenge can be solved by brute force alone then it's too simple.
09:49:13 <ais523> I actually think that the fact that brute force algos (i.e. brute force at runtime, not compile time) are often terser than more efficient algorithms is an indictment of compilers being bad at optimizing
09:49:29 <nakilon> no, you can just make a universal "solver" for every codegolf in the world in this way
09:49:35 <int-e> oh, that kind of brute force
09:49:36 <ais523> very few challenges are simple enough to be solved by brute-forcing all posisble programs until you find one that works, even intelligently
09:50:08 <nakilon> for (;;) { string = rand_string(); break if md5(string) == "83yn8237hr8374hr" }
09:50:16 <int-e> I once submitted an O(2^n) time sorting algorithm (O(2^n/n) average time if my analysis back then was correct) to a golfing competition and got away with it.
09:50:17 <nakilon> just change the hash for every puzzle
09:50:17 <ais523> nakilon: that doesn't work
09:50:40 <ais523> if your program is longer than 16 bytes or so, the brute-forcer will almost certainly find a second preimage before it finds the actual program you wanted
09:50:49 <nakilon> ais523 that's how they solve 99-bottles-like puzzles
09:50:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81569&oldid=81513 * Strohtaler * (+291) /* Example: Fibonacci stopping after number count */ new section
09:51:02 <ais523> nakilon: that *doesn't work* in that it will *produce the wrong answer*
09:51:45 <ais523> hash collisions are a thing, e.g. SHA-256 has a 1 in 2²⁵⁶ chance of any random string happening to collide with the hash you give
09:51:52 <nakilon> ais523 do you mean the md5 collision? that's not the point, that's the principle -- make a regex instead of md5, whatever
09:51:52 <int-e> . o O ( head -n NNN /dev/urandom )
09:52:07 <ais523> and the actual desired output will take way more than 2²⁵⁶ trials on average to find
09:52:23 <ais523> so, it will almost certainly find a second preimage before it finds the answer you want
09:52:29 <nakilon> and they were submitting the solutions that work for a week to find it
09:52:34 <int-e> Somehow I'm reminded of http://golf.shinh.org/setpid.html
09:52:44 <ais523> if someone submitted that as an answer to the 99bob problem then it would get deleted due to being incorrect
09:52:57 <ais523> (the length of time it takes to produce the wrong answer is way more than weeks, but irrelevant)
09:53:30 <nakilon> but they didn't delete, they insulted me for that
09:53:45 <ais523> I doubt that would happen nowadays, with people having a better understanding of golfing
09:54:08 <ais523> int-e: anagol eventually found a better fix for that, the recheck button
09:54:23 <ais523> which runs the program again and disqualifies the submission if it produces the wrong answer
09:54:38 <ais523> so, programs that only sometimes print the correct answer are no longer allowed
09:54:54 <nakilon> I don't believe in places becoming better while the number of people in it increases, it's always the opposite
09:54:57 <ais523> anagol isn't the only golfing site that was susceptible to this, incidentally, similar tricks have been used elsewhere
09:55:00 <int-e> though a bit sad in the case of language changes
09:55:09 <ais523> nakilon: but the number of people has decreased on CGCC
09:55:21 <int-e> (does it keep a record of the disqualified solutions?)
09:55:27 <ais523> I'm not sure of the details
09:56:04 <int-e> I mean it's one thing to have a program produce random output
09:58:23 <int-e> and another to have a program that relied on an older version of the language in question (I'm aware of this for Haskell, which removed n+k-patterns...)
09:59:09 <ais523> on CGCC, programs that only work in old interpreters are generally considered to be in a different language from programs that work in newer interpreters too
09:59:45 <nakilon> all my currently existing 4 answers are Jan 28 '11
10:00:11 <ais523> I know I've submitted a CGCC answer which only worked in one specific old version of Java (IIRC 1.4)
10:00:23 <ais523> nakilon: oh, the site was a complete joke in 2011, I can see why you were driven away
10:04:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81570&oldid=81569 * Strohtaler * (+250) /* Example: Fibonacci stopping after number count */
10:11:48 <myname> why did haskell remove n+k patterns?
10:13:53 <int-e> well they were odd, potentially confusing... they needed both arithmetic and a comparison to be implemented
10:14:17 <int-e> and in contrast to the plain numeric patterns, they were not all that common or useful.
10:15:40 <int-e> but all in all... no strong reasons, just an opinionated decision by the people writing the Haskell 2010 standard document
10:16:01 <int-e> ghc still supports them as a language extension anyway
10:16:17 <ais523> n+k seems more like an agda feature than a haskell feature
10:16:33 <kspalaiologos> when i was learning haskell i was wondering why n+k isn't a thing too
10:16:46 <ais523> because agda is implemented as-if it uses peano arithmetic and n+k patterns are genuine pattern matches there
10:17:17 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
10:17:21 <lambdabot> [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
10:17:28 <shachaf> Hmm, pi_10 is longer than I remember.
10:17:31 <int-e> that said, having both a comparison (the 'n' has to be nonnegative) and arithmetic in one place is what made them occasionally useful for golfing.
10:18:20 <shachaf> There was a slightly shorter variant of one of those that took way longer to evaluate than lambdabot allows.
10:18:53 <int-e> but adding {-#LANGUAGE NPlusKPatterns#-} will generally not pay off :-)
10:20:06 <shachaf> How many "golfing" competitions are there where the program size is fixed, and the goal is to find the best solution within that size?
10:20:26 <shachaf> I only know of one that was run that way, and it was barely code golf, really.
10:20:43 <shachaf> Best defined by the problem.
10:21:08 <shachaf> I'm thinking of http://djm.cc/bignum-results.txt
10:21:29 <shachaf> Though I guess the C++ error explosion competition was sort of like this too in a sense.
10:22:04 <ais523> shachaf: you see them on CGCC occasionally, normally in challenges which are directly or indirectly bignum-related
10:22:19 <nakilon> shachaf PI is always longer than you remember ..D
10:23:16 <nakilon> shachaf also there are contests for finding the best solution with fixed time limit
10:26:25 <nakilon> this https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization
10:28:20 <nakilon> for example, here your Mars lander has to use as low amount of fuel as possible https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization/mars-lander
10:28:36 <nakilon> also engines will stop when depleted
10:34:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81571&oldid=81570 * Strohtaler * (+9) /* Question / Understanding */
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11:35:45 <fizzie> I think I saw a "speed golf" thing (find the 'fastest' way of doing something) somewhere too, but can't recall the details, or where.
11:41:00 <Taneb> You'd need a well-defined time measure
11:43:43 <nakilon> actually on codingame you have to use some C anyway to get to the very top of A.I. contests
11:44:12 <nakilon> they traverse deep into the tree
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11:46:22 <fizzie> We had a (playful) competition of sorts for a university course once that I was helping to run, initially with Scheme (using SICP's metacircular evaluator as the time measurement) but later on the JVM (with a bit fuzzier process-time-based time limits), on who writes the best "AI" for a specific (non-standard) board game.
11:47:07 <Taneb> We had one of those at uni, too, in Python
11:47:23 <Taneb> It was a variant of battleships with pieces which weren't straight lines
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11:48:19 <nakilon> I sometimes think about such thing when imagining an AI contest -- it should be some unique language with your own VM that sums the weights of the commands executed
11:48:20 <fizzie> This was vaguely chess-like, but with an interesting two-step non-local capture mechanism (you "target" a piece first, and then capture on the next turn if the criteria for capturing are still fulfilled).
11:49:05 <fizzie> I did the same sort of results visualizations (and a web game viewer) that we've done with bf joust, I wonder if those pages are still up somewhere.
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11:49:32 <fizzie> (Probably not, it's been quite long. Then again, university people aren't that keen on cleaning up web servers.)
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11:52:21 <fizzie> Hah, the university wiki page that explains how to use the framework is at least still up. But it doesn't have a link to the results pages. https://wiki.aalto.fi/display/T934400/Guide
11:52:31 <nakilon> these things we talk about now are by magnitudes more complex than what all my coding friends (not even mentioning offline friends) could even understand
11:52:31 <fizzie> Also, the link to the game's page is just a 404 now.
11:53:50 <fizzie> Also, there's spam in the comments, as with any unmaintained wiki with a commenting facility. :)
12:01:06 <fizzie> Hah! My personal user account web directory's still around. That's ridiculous, but maybe shouldn't be surprising.
12:01:09 <nakilon> wow, Atlassian instance with free registration?
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12:02:27 <fizzie> Yeah, no idea... I imagine they needed separate accounts for some use cases (non-student collaborators or whatnot), but a bit surprising that they didn't just create accounts separately for that.
12:03:05 <fizzie> (Maybe it actually requires manual review for account creation, otherwise you'd think there'd be more spam.)
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12:06:06 <fizzie> I think my favourite visualization was the "time used per game" thing, because you got really different graphs depending on how people implemented their time bookkeeping. Like, http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/ai2012/img/cpu_justice.png (the 2012 winner) is probably some sort of a "use a specific fraction of remaining time per move" kind of thing, while
12:06:11 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/ai2012/img/cpu_angrymarmots.png is something more linear/situational.
12:08:44 <fizzie> Even the JS-based game viewer still works. That's making me smile. Gotta be thankful for that backwards-compatibility and "dumb" web servers vs. "smart" clients, I guess. http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/ai2012/game.xhtml?justice-phailbot
12:09:02 <fizzie> Okay, the XHTML 1.1 doctype's kind of obsolete by now.
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12:46:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> many shops here don't accept £50 notes, though, there's a perception that £50 notes are only used by criminals" => we don't have that perception, but shops sometimes refuse 10000 HUF or 20000 HUF notes because they don't have enough change for them. and the problem is, ATMs usually give you cash in the form of 10000 HUF and 20000 HUF notes, but post offices make it difficult to actually
12:46:45 <b_jonas> change these to smaller notes. so I'm quite affraid that within 10 years the whole fucking currency, including non-cache forms, will die in a cascading collapse where everyone will realize that 10000 HUF and 20000 HUF banknotes aren't actually worth 10000 HUF or 20000 HUF, so you can't reliably get money from your bank account as cash.
12:48:00 <b_jonas> "<myname> ais523: here, shops have to accept every note if it's within reasonable margin of purchase" => well yes, but that doesn't help. cash does work well if you're doing building construction or reconstruction work, but not so well for everyday grocery purchases
12:48:54 <myname> i mean, i don't use it, usually, but i did
12:49:25 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> […] the way you non-verbally behave makes a great difference in how more likely you'll be considered a criminal" => and the way you look too. and since I do look sort of like a criminal, I make efforts to conspiciously look like I'm not stealing when I'm in a supermarket or other large shop
12:50:52 <nakilon> "oh look, that suspicious dude again" -- "nah, he's just from esolang"
12:51:22 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> wtf is altgr?" => either the right alt key, or control plus the left alt key, used as a third layer besides unshifted and shifted for typing characters. you need to know about both right-alt and control+left-alt, because sometimes programs will preempt using one or the other for some shortcut so you can only type something with the other one.
12:52:10 <nakilon> oh, it's the end of March, exactly the year of growing my beard
12:53:43 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> he must have big hands" => I do have big hands, yes. useful for a rubik's cube.
12:54:05 <myname> i would actually _not_ use cash for stuff like building constructions and use it for groceries
12:54:56 <nakilon> this epidemic is a gold for datamining
12:55:00 <b_jonas> "<myname> how so? ctrl is lower than shift and you have to reach the other key" => I press control with the left edge of my left palm. this is an idiosyncratic thing that almost nobody else does, and it restricts my choice of keyboards significantly, because on most cheap keyboards the left control key is shaped in a way that this doesn't work. it does work well on classical keyboards similar to the
12:55:06 <b_jonas> model M and more expensive keyboards though.
12:55:17 <b_jonas> I don't recommend learning this by the way, just press control with your pinky like a normal person.
12:55:23 <b_jonas> but it does work well for me.
12:55:28 <b_jonas> it may or may not require large hands.
12:56:06 <myname> pressing ctrl with the edge of your hand sounds like pressing ctrl+a very uncomfortable
12:56:18 <b_jonas> "<ais523> shift-shift forces me to move them much further apart than I'd normally have them, making it slower to type" => we used to use shift+shift to switch between Hungarian and English keyboard layouts, before windows put it onto left-alt+shift or windows+space by default
12:57:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> e.g. in the word "type", I type the "y" with my left hand because the right hand is covering "p" which is at the far end of the keyboard, that means my left hand is nowhere near left shift" => I don't understand this. how is left shift even relevant for the word "type"? if you mean "y" instead of left shift, I still don't get it.
12:58:43 <myname> if you type with classic 10 finger system (which i hate) on qwerty, the y is supposed to be pressed with your right index finger
12:58:56 <b_jonas> I almost never use the wrong hand for letters when typing text, but I do often use the wrong shift key (left shift when right shift would be easier), and sometimes use the wrong hand when pressing individual keys rather than contiguous text
12:59:58 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> also on macOS I don't really close files -- I keep them all opened forever" => that doesn't really solve how you open them again though, or how you find the already opened instance
13:00:13 <b_jonas> even if you don't close them, you want an open command for finding the already open instance
13:02:57 <b_jonas> "hmm… I wonder whether nontemporal reads would make a significant improvement for that sort of workflow?" => I doubt it. nontemporal works for random access, but not for sequential access. you don't have large enough registers (before avx512) to load an entire cache line, so to read anything sequentially you'll need to read the same cache line twice or four times, and nontemporal makes that worse.
13:04:10 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I've been spending weeks looking at low-level processor performance in order to write the world's fastest FizzBuzz" => I feel like you have to optimize displaying the output for that. presumably with actual VGA text mode, rather than a terminal emulator.
13:05:25 <nakilon> "how you find the already opened instance" -- fuzzy file path search feature that is probably now in all IDEs
13:05:43 <b_jonas> "<kspalaiologos> and send the fizzbuzz thingy via serial" => that's even worse, serial terminal speed is the bottleneck then, isn't it? or maybe these USB3 serial port drivers make it faster? hmm
13:08:45 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> did they even realise finally that half of the problems they are posting isn't codegolf?" => how is that a problem? it started as a "programming puzzles and code golf" site, then got renamed to "code golf" when people mostly posted golf, but you can still post non-golf problems
13:09:50 <nakilon> no matter if there was "programming puzzles" in the name they always ranked answers by char length
13:10:29 <b_jonas> "<ais523> community-wiki every answer" => there's a backdoor where you can turn a question to CW if you edit it like sixteen times, waiting between so the versions aren't coalesced. does that work for answers too, and can you do it if you have reputation 1?
13:12:18 <b_jonas> "<kspalaiologos> but some people on CGCC literally admitted to run a bruteforcing tool to find solutions to problems." => as they should, if problems are so simple that that works. the solution to that is to post more interesting problems.
13:14:16 <nakilon> "if problems are so simple that that works. the solution to that is to post more interesting problems." -- there will be no "solution" because no one was interested in "solving" it, because they all considered it to be valid codegolfing -- you can't "solve" it by trying to teach a thousand of users by "showing better example of problems" because
13:14:16 <nakilon> they'll just ignore it -- this is what the voting system is now for on SE
13:14:41 <nakilon> it's a community driven censorship of those who have something to say instead of just repeating each other
13:15:02 <b_jonas> "<ais523> so, programs that only sometimes print the correct answer are no longer allowed" => ah, so $$ in perl is no longer as useful
13:16:29 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I know I've submitted a CGCC answer which only worked in one specific old version of Java (IIRC 1.4)" => I have an old post about that phenomenon at https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=866594 .
13:18:52 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> How many "golfing" competitions are there where the program size is fixed, and the goal is to find the best solution within that size?" => there was one old competition for writing a rubik's cube solver where your score was the product of (your program size) with (your program runtime) with (number of face turns in the solution found) or something like that.
13:19:20 <b_jonas> and there are demoscene competitions limited to 4 kilobytes and, um, 64 kilobytes? or something that fit
13:19:27 <b_jonas> but yes, they don't count as golf
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13:21:42 <b_jonas> "<myname> why not?" => because the grocery purchases are of lower value
13:22:07 <callforjudgement> <b_jonas> I don't understand this. ← talking about how shift-shift is a bad shortcut because normally at least one of my hands isn't near the corresponding shift
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13:22:25 <myname> b_jonas: ... so it is actually easier to check if the amount given is enough to pay
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13:23:22 <b_jonas> "<myname> i would actually _not_ use cash for stuff like building constructions" => you don't really get a choice. basically all the people working for individual construction projects (i.e. reconstructing your home house, as opposed to big projects that the government commissions) will ask for cash. you can still use cash for groceries though, and often have to at smaller vendors, because only larger
13:23:54 <b_jonas> "<myname> pressing ctrl with the edge of your hand sounds like pressing ctrl+a very uncomfortable" => not really. it's not the easiest control key, but it's not too hard either.
13:24:08 <b_jonas> control+b is actually harder
13:24:45 <b_jonas> "<myname> if you type with classic 10 finger system (which i hate) on qwerty, the y is supposed to be pressed with your right index finger" => yes, and I don't understand ais's rationale for presssing it with the left hand
13:25:06 <b_jonas> I don't find it strange that he presses it with his left hand, that's quite reasonable, but I don't understand his specific argument
13:26:32 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: yes, but you don't need to switch between Hungarian and English layout often, it's a rare action, so it's fine to use a not too good shortcut. but yes, it's a bad shortcut.
13:28:18 <b_jonas> also cash vs card reminds me. in the US some people still use cheques. I only ever received a cheque once, as a prize for a golfing competition organized by an american company. I never wrote a cheque, it's not a thing in Europe, not anymore at least.
13:29:46 <b_jonas> we just use cash, debit cards, credit cards, various cards and paper slips with restricted usage (e.g. food only) as tax saving measures, and the occasional shop-specific gift card
13:32:39 <fizzie> I used to have a shortcut for switching between the UK and FI layouts, but for some unexplicable reason gave that up, and now write the two accented characters you need in Finnish (ä, ö) using the dead-key accents the UK layout has (altgr-[, where [ is the key immediately to the right of p, produces a dead diaeresis).
13:32:49 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81572&oldid=79953 * Bo Tie * (+500) Baba is not confirmed to be a rabbit. Also fixed capitalization inconsistency and added more words
13:33:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: how do you type their capital versions Ä and Ö?
13:33:40 <b_jonas> or do you not need those for finnish? I am hazy on how finnish works
13:33:49 <fizzie> It's just altgr-[ follwed by shift-A.
13:34:19 <b_jonas> not single altgr combos. I see
13:34:38 <b_jonas> do you type a lot of finnish with accents?
13:35:09 <fizzie> Any nontrivial amount of Finnish will require ä or ö, if that's what you mean. But I don't write that much in Finnish in the first place.
13:35:32 <b_jonas> yes, but does it require the capitals?
13:36:37 <fizzie> Oh. Yes, sometimes. Though I think those two are maybe slightly less common (but still present) as the initial letter of a word, and of course only so many words start a sentence (or are proper names).
13:36:49 <b_jonas> and that's why I gave up dvorak layout when I tried it by the way: it's based on the idea that you type vowels with your left hand and consonants with your right, but that doesn't work so well for Hungarian text that needs a lot of á and é and k and some z and y but very few h
13:37:07 <fizzie> Strictly speaking you also would sometimes need Å or å, which is a bit of a problem, because I don't think the ° is in the UK layout. But it's so rare, I haven't even learned what the compose sequence for that is.
13:37:55 <fizzie> There's five dead-key accents in the five symbol keys between the letters and the enter key in the UK layout, but they're äãáâà, no å.
13:38:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't it on altgr with some number?
13:38:56 <b_jonas> though I guess it's easier to just learn the unicode code point number 0xE5
13:39:05 <fizzie> No, at least on this system. The number row with altgr produces non-dead symbols ¹²³€½¾{[]}, in order.
13:39:22 <fizzie> Actually, turns out it's just compose-o-a to get å.
13:39:27 <fizzie> That should be easy enough to remember.
13:40:30 <fizzie> Not sure why altgr-7..0 is {[]} when there's dedicated [] keys (with {} as their shifted variants) almost right next to them.
13:41:32 <fizzie> And compose-o-A gives Å. Fair enough. Next time I need to mention Åland Islands to someone, I'll use that instead of copying it from the "Swedish alphabet" wikipedia article.
13:43:49 <b_jonas> `python -cprint('\u00C5land Islands')
13:44:05 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint('\u00C5land Islands')
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13:49:32 <b_jonas> fungot, do you contain chemicals?
13:49:32 <fungot> b_jonas: today i am in cbe only. but have to seek. hee
13:49:43 <b_jonas> fungot, do you contain chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer?
13:49:43 <fungot> b_jonas: wat.? abt the imp. at one? if dun go dunno... i oso saw a top dat i like but din say. there. emulsified.
13:49:50 <HackEso> ruby 2.5.5p157 (2019-03-15 revision 67260) [x86_64-linux-gnu]
13:50:32 <nakilon> his response sounds like he was caught consuming chemicals
13:53:02 <fizzie> fungot is known to the state of California to contain chemicals that may cause cancer.
13:53:02 <fungot> fizzie: hey me just drop into a cafe to get a cd? if poss. tc *cricinfo alerts are like coming. shuhui also like to attend to. just wish to pass me... haha
13:54:43 <fizzie> My terminal (urxvt) has this weirdo "keycap picture insertion mode", triggered by left-control + left-shift (as a tap, with no other keys), which makes it possible to e.g. press space to get ␣ or enter to get ↵.
13:55:23 <fizzie> Never had an actual use for that, only ever triggered it accidentally (thinking of pressing ctrl-shift-something but then decided not to).
13:56:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: there's a switch to disable it. I always do.
13:57:09 <fizzie> Guess it might be a semi-convenient way to type ←↑→↓ though. (I just use compose "->" for the horizontal arrows, but not sure how I'd type the vertical ones.)
13:58:15 <b_jonas> or, for a more complete command line, (export LC_CTYPE=hu_HU.utf8; urxvt -ls -geometry 80x25 +sb -b 0 -bg \#000000 -fg \#c0c0c0 --colorBD \#ffffff --color0 \#000000 --color1 \#aa0000 --color2 \#00aa00 --color3 \#aa5500 --color4 \#0000ff --color5 \#aa00aa --color6 \#00aaaa --color7 \#c0c0c0 --color8 \#555555 --color9 \#ff5555 --color10 \#55ff55 --color11 \#ffff55 --color12 \#5588ff --color13 \#ff55ff
13:58:21 <b_jonas> --color14 \#55ffff --color15 \#ffffff -cr \#c0f0a0 -fn "x:-*-fecupboard-medium-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1,x:-*-terminus-bold-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1" --boldFont "" -vb -sbg --print-pipe false --pointerBlank --pointerBlankDelay 2147483647 ++iso14755_52 "%@")
13:58:49 <fizzie> Aw, keycap picture insert mode doesn't insert the Microsoftⓡ Windowsⓡ™ logo when used with the Windows key.
13:59:00 <fizzie> I was thinking it'd sneakily take a picture of your keyboard and figure out what's printed on it.
13:59:50 <fizzie> At least the more standard keys (⎋⇥⇧⎈⇭) work with it.
13:59:52 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, no copying the buffers, also you operate it directly if you boot
14:09:43 <APic> For ↑ and ↓ i have in my .XCompose: „<Multi_key> <b> <b> : "↑" U2191“ and „<Multi_key> <v> <v> : "↓" U2193“
14:12:19 <APic> (The two „b“ for pointing a_b_ove, and „v“ looks like ↓ 😉)
14:13:06 <APic> Yes, but „a“ is too far away from „v“ 😉
14:15:32 <b_jonas> wordperfect directions esdx then
14:26:15 <APic> And many First-Person-Shooters wads. But for Compose we already have ← and → as <- and ->
14:26:56 <APic> Of course we could use ^| and v| or something ☺
14:27:56 <APic> Ah, v| already makes ↓ here
14:28:39 <APic> And ^| makes ↑
14:28:41 <APic> Good to know ☺
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14:47:24 <Sgeo> I still have "Forget is for getting" burned in my brain. I think that's shachaf's pun? Ironically enough, I've forgotten everything else about lenses
14:58:10 <b_jonas> fungot, why do you consider Cruella de Vil your favorite Disney villain?
14:58:10 <fungot> b_jonas: poda wat is personal btwn ur fingers just press wrong one lor i thk his students
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15:21:25 <fizzie> Thanks for the v| ^| tip. I did half-heartedly try a few v- and ^-based ideas, but didn't think of combining them with |.
15:24:02 <fizzie> Next mystery: => gives ⇒, but what about the other directions? <= is just ≤, and there's no key for ‖ to compose v and ^ with.
15:29:30 <fizzie> Also not good: on this system, both compose +- and compose -+ gives ±, which is a missed opportunity; one of them should give ∓ instead.
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15:40:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81573&oldid=81571 * Strohtaler * (-1) /* Example: Fibonacci stopping after number count */
15:53:04 <b_jonas> fungot, they're called "private" bits, not "personal"
15:53:04 <fungot> b_jonas: she was gonna ask me to die every now and then, ithink i can ' t go... would love to get married one cannot intro
15:58:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81574&oldid=81005 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Add a test
16:07:20 <APic> fizzie: Same here
16:54:51 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81575&oldid=81548 * Not applicable * (+671) add (untested) Ti-Nspire Basic one
16:58:37 <shachaf> Sgeo: That's what Forget is for.
17:03:45 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81576&oldid=78488 * Hakerh400 * (+824) Add TIO links
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17:21:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81577&oldid=81556 * Truttle1 * (+110)
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17:31:19 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81578&oldid=81576 * Hakerh400 * (+1710) Add more TIO links
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17:32:55 <kmc> v| and ^| don't do anything for me
17:34:19 <fizzie> Hmm. I can do v| and |v and both result in ↓.
17:36:40 <kmc> I think I'm possibly using some GTK input method instead of the base X compose feature
17:37:07 <kmc> unlike previous machines where I had compose set up, this one shows the individual characters as I type them, underlined, and with a prompt before them that looks like an overlapping square and circle
17:37:20 <kmc> then it all disappears and is replaced with the target character when I complete a sequence
17:38:01 <kmc> on Tuesday I'm getting a new laptop! haven't decided what OS to run on it
17:38:06 <kmc> I might go back to Windows + WSL
17:38:18 <kmc> there is some Windows-only software I'd like to run
17:39:14 <kmc> but I will have 8 cores and 48 GB of RAM so running virtual machines is not a big deal
17:40:27 <kmc> not sure which one is better to use as the base OS
17:40:32 <kmc> windows might have better power management
17:46:07 <fizzie> I think I'm maybe getting some sort of a visual thing like that on my work laptop too.
17:47:02 <fizzie> Here's a thing I kind of would like WSL to have: now that it's a real kernel (AIUI, in WSL2), they could expose those drives that Windows doesn't know what to do with as block devices to the Linux thing, so that they could be mounted in there.
17:47:52 <fizzie> I do dual boot on this every once every few months (for games), and every time I'm over on that side, there's some file or whatever that's only accessible to the other operating system.
17:48:42 <fizzie> I had that sort of working on a VirtualBox thing at one point, but it was still a hassle.
17:49:36 <kmc> yeah it's possible to boot an actual hard drive partition in a VM
17:49:45 <kmc> I think I had that working once, back when I dual-booted
17:50:06 <kmc> but dual booting seems less and less appealing over time
17:51:11 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81579&oldid=81250 * Digital Hunter * (+1342) /* Computational class */ Turing-complete!
17:51:46 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81580&oldid=81559 * Zzo38 * (+2072) Free Hero Mesh
17:53:02 <fizzie> I turned on that thing in Steam that lets you apply Proton to any game, not only the ones they've verified, and from what I've read it works pretty well for many things. Maybe that's why I think I haven't booted the Windows installation this year yet.
17:53:31 <fizzie> One unappealing part of it is that when you don't use it in months, installing all the updates is kind of terrible.
17:57:19 <kmc> what's Proton? some WINE-like thing?
17:58:23 <fizzie> Yes, I think it's technically a fork of Wine that Valve maintains? Something like that.
17:58:40 <kmc> interesting
17:58:42 <kmc> worth looking into
17:59:26 <kmc> I don't play games very much
17:59:53 <kmc> but I might want Windows for 3D CAD software or weirdo ham radio software
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18:06:30 <zzo38> Usually, if the software is Windows, I just use different software instead. DOSBOX can run 16-bit Windows programs (if you have Windows 3.1), although it is slow. I cannot install Wine on my computer due to conflicts in the package manager.
18:09:36 <zzo38> Many programs are already available for many operating systems, anyways (or there is another program which does mainly the same thing, for another operating system, e.g. a NES/Famicom emulator).
18:11:51 <kritixilithos> david madore's interview on esoteric.codes https://esoteric.codes/blog/david-madore , didn't realise it's so easy to have a machine that beats oracle_n TMs for all n
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19:07:37 <zzo38> I think many people they will write new free software to do the same things as some other software
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19:37:02 <b_jonas> yay! I installed the new speakers for my home computer. it's the third try, the first two (cheaper) speakers that I bought weren't suitable.
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20:24:39 <esowiki> [[1066]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81581&oldid=78471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-39) /* Commands */ grm
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21:10:37 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81582&oldid=81158 * Kefalonia * (+0) *p
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21:14:50 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81583&oldid=81160 * Kefalonia * (+45) explain
21:15:00 <esowiki> [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81584&oldid=79648 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+760) I/O; Truth-machine
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21:28:41 <fizzie> Rotterdam has an area that's literally called "Cool District"? That's a little presumptuous, isn't it. (Okay, okay, it's not the same "Cool".)
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21:45:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81585&oldid=81567 * Heavpoot * (-36)
21:49:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Clsource * New user account
21:51:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81586&oldid=81518 * Clsource * (+63) /* Introductions */
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22:14:14 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
22:15:18 <esowiki> [[Ogu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81587 * Clsource * (+809) Added Og Language
22:19:25 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81588&oldid=81505 * Clsource * (+10) Added Ogu
23:16:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81589&oldid=81577 * Heavpoot * (+116)
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23:23:18 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81590&oldid=74574 * Heavpoot * (+29) this *is* turing complete, right?
23:24:02 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81591&oldid=81590 * Heavpoot * (+0) uncapitalize the letter c in turing complete. oops.
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01:15:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81592&oldid=81585 * Heavpoot * (-76) removed false claim, a staff member from the other server *did* in fact place invite links to the other server in ours. while we don't have a problem with this, this makes this claim false
01:22:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81593&oldid=81592 * Citrons * (+76) Undo revision 81592 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) do not
01:29:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81594&oldid=81593 * Heavpoot * (+47) add snide remark
01:29:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81595&oldid=81594 * Heavpoot * (+1) fix 1(one) typo
02:11:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81596&oldid=81595 * Nailuj29 * (-76) Undo revision 81593 by [[Special:Contributions/Citrons|Citrons]] ([[User talk:Citrons|talk]])
02:14:46 <fizzie> It's refreshing (?) to see that "IRC drama" apparently thrives just as well in other mediums. (That probably just means it was never "IRC drama" in the first place, but just part of the human condition.)
02:19:35 <int-e> who'd imagine that there'd be discord on Discord
02:50:38 <fizzie> Well, maybe Microsoft will put a stop to that. (AIUI they're in talks to buy it for $10B?)
02:51:51 <fizzie> (I think that might be still a bit speculative.)
02:54:47 * int-e tries to make the jump to Mixer but doesn't quite manage it
02:55:49 <int-e> (beyond "MS acquires some social media platform")
02:56:59 <int-e> "Mixer's intellectual property and staff will be transferred to the Microsoft Teams division, and incorporated into the product." -- well I guess that's a path Discord could go down as well.
03:16:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emerald47089 * New user account
03:18:07 <int-e> ...ouch, I just reread that quote. "Mixer's [...] staff will be [...] incorporated into the product."
03:18:30 <int-e> A fate worse than death.
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03:44:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Grom * New user account
03:49:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81597&oldid=81586 * Grom * (+180) /* Introductions */
03:51:03 <kmc> "In his belly, you will find a new definition of pain and suffering, as you are slowly digested over a thousand years."
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04:43:11 <nakilon> 20:48:42 <fizzie> I had that sort of working on a VirtualBox thing at one point, but it was still a hassle.
04:44:29 <nakilon> recently I needed to run some specific computer game related software and since I didn't have VirtualBox installed I tried qemu to try it out
04:45:04 <nakilon> and it appeared by magniture worse than I could even imagine
04:45:48 <nakilon> I would expect more usability from even 1 week old software
04:46:03 <nakilon> but does not seem like it would be any close to VirtualBox in near 20 years
04:46:17 <nakilon> things didn't just "work bad", they just didn't work at all
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06:50:40 <zzo38> Does any programming language have a block that the beginning of the block produces the address of the end of the block as a value?
06:51:06 <zzo38> (other than assembly language)
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07:09:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81598&oldid=81596 * Heavpoot * (+76) Undo revision 81596 by [[Special:Contributions/Nailuj29|Nailuj29]] ([[User talk:Nailuj29|talk]]): please don't.
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09:43:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81599&oldid=77234 * Heavpoot * (+105)
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10:17:31 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81600&oldid=79253 * Mantita223 * (-92)
11:46:33 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81601&oldid=81193 * Heavpoot * (+935)
11:46:42 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81602&oldid=81601 * Heavpoot * (+2)
11:47:01 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81603&oldid=81602 * Heavpoot * (+3)
11:55:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: well... in perl you can put a label in front of the opening brace of a block, even a bare block, and then jump to before or after the end of the block with the next and last keyword resp followed by the block name, so that's sort of like that, except it's not a value you can store, and is scoped dynamically, so you can't pass the address into a recursion and jump out through other instances of
11:55:06 <b_jonas> the same block or blocks named the same;
11:55:15 <b_jonas> so I don't know if you count that
11:57:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81604&oldid=81307 * Heavpoot * (+216)
11:59:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81605&oldid=81604 * JonoCode9374 * (+252)
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12:12:53 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81606&oldid=81603 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Instructions */ Now it is true
12:21:19 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81607&oldid=81600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Syntax */ Reword
12:50:31 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81608&oldid=81606 * Heavpoot * (+146)
12:51:02 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81609&oldid=81608 * Heavpoot * (+43)
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13:11:08 <ais523> b_jonas: I'd like to donate a quine to your short-Perl-quine collection: $_=q(print"\$_=q($_);eval");eval
13:12:09 <ais523> hmm, maybe I can get that a little shorter
13:12:30 <ais523> actually, don't thInk I can
13:12:44 <ais523> (unless you assume -M5.010 like you do on CGCC, when you can use 'say' and a newline)
13:18:35 <ais523> zzo38: there's a gcc extension that lets you take the address of a label
13:18:46 <ais523> they added a prefix && operator for the purpose
13:19:11 <ais523> but that's not really the same as what you were asking for
13:19:30 <ais523> it might be usable for the same purpose though
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13:48:18 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that does seem new... let me search a bit more
13:48:48 <b_jonas> I think I've seen quines using eval, but not this short one
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13:50:00 <b_jonas> ais523: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=62536 has a slightly longer version
13:50:38 <b_jonas> it uses a different quoting style, plus includes a newline
13:50:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I wouldn't be surprised if it had been seen before
13:50:52 <ais523> but yes, I wonder why they didn't use "" rather than qq()?
13:51:49 <fizzie> It's more quine-y if it's got more 'q's in it?
13:52:17 <b_jonas> ais523: I have a lua quine that uses eval though
13:53:04 <b_jonas> just a program that both evals and otherwise uses a string
13:54:13 <b_jonas> `lua -ea="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127\nend;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>";loadstring(a)()
13:54:35 <b_jonas> this one: it's a self-checking program, if you try to modify anything in the string, it will break, unless you understand how it's constructed and how to fix it
13:54:39 <ais523> "loadstring" is so much uglier than "eval"
13:55:14 <ais523> also, I was surprised that that worked (for shell-quoting reasons) until I realised that there was only one `
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13:56:55 <ais523> also I have used a very similar trick for things like my radiation-hardened quine in Perl that can survive the deletion of any three characters (and print the original program)
13:57:43 <b_jonas> there was also a quine with a part encrypted with strong cryptography I think
13:57:55 <b_jonas> there was some point to that but I don't recall what
13:59:22 <b_jonas> hmm, now I wonder if it would make sense to make some sort of secret-sharing collection of quines
13:59:34 <b_jonas> where you need any two of three programs to print something
14:07:25 <ais523> two programs where, if you give any one of them the source code to a second, they print the third?
14:09:19 <b_jonas> I don't know what the intended behavior should be
14:09:49 <b_jonas> that would be more of an error-correcting thing than a secret sharing thing, but I'm not sure a secret-sharing thing even makes sense
14:11:22 <ais523> secret-sharing on its own makes sense but i'm not sure how you combine it with a quine
14:11:58 <b_jonas> maybe two compiled programs from which you can get the source code of both but only if you have both programs
14:12:11 <ais523> so you give one the executable of the other?
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14:18:28 <b_jonas> I guess that wouldn't effectively differ from the quine that asks for a passphrase to decrypt its own source code that is embedded in the executable encrypted
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14:51:31 <myname> uh, i just make the password the entire program
14:52:05 <myname> print(input("dear user, please insert the source to make this a quine"))
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15:38:00 <esowiki> [[User:Grom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81610 * Grom * (+79) Created page with "I'm currently working on an OISC concept which I will post about in the future."
15:47:50 <nakilon> 16:54:35 <b_jonas> this one: it's a self-checking program, if you try to modify anything in the string, it will break, unless you understand how it's constructed and how to fix it
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16:57:28 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Trance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81611&oldid=65786 * Hakerh400 * (+234) Update example
16:58:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81612&oldid=81300 * Hakerh400 * (+14) /* Bitwise Trance */ Update
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17:56:28 <zzo38> I know of that gcc extension; maybe by the use of a macro it might be possible to make something like what I suggested (by combining with other GNU extensions).
17:56:57 <zzo38> Probably also what I suggested is possible to make in Forth, too.
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17:59:04 <zzo38> In some implementations of Forth, THEN is defined like: : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; by adding a suitable definition for a command at the beginning of the block, that could be used, then.
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18:39:07 <b_jonas> nakilon: it doesn't really blow up, it just prints the wrong thing
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19:19:18 <zzo38> (I looked, and Gforth seems to do something similar but is more complicated.)
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20:27:08 <esowiki> [[Trance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81613&oldid=65507 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Cat/stub
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20:56:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81614&oldid=80581 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+101) /* Infallibility? */
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23:41:42 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81615&oldid=81580 * Zzo38 * (+114)
00:14:59 <esowiki> [[Category:2026]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81616 * Heavpoot * (+77) Created page with "This category consists of esolangs made in the year 2026. [[Category:Years]]"
00:55:29 <int-e> wtf is heavpoot up to now
01:00:00 * int-e mourns the loss of a full hour. We miss you, 2020-03-28, 2am to 3am CET. Life will never be the same without you.
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01:02:13 <int-e> and... I mixed up 2020 and 2021
01:04:44 <fizzie> Oh, right, that's why it's that late already.
01:05:16 <kmc> we did that a few weeks ago
01:05:28 <fizzie> I was looking at backscroll of another channel after being away a bit, and wondering how could it possibly have been over an hour ago.
01:06:08 <fizzie> I like the two weeks between the US and EU DST switches, some of my meetings are earlier than usual.
01:06:34 <fizzie> Back when meeting rooms were still a consideration, all of the bookings got messed up for those two weeks.
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01:06:59 <int-e> sometimes it's 3 weeks... not this year
01:07:22 <fizzie> I had someone join a meeting from a proper meeting room (in Zürich) last week, it was pretty weird.
01:07:56 <fizzie> And someone else had one of the London office (still fully closed) rooms dial into their meeting automatically, but there was nobody there, which I think would've been not just weird but creepy.
01:11:06 <kmc> after SARS 3: TurboSARS wipes out all of humanity your conference rooms will still be automatically calling each other
01:11:26 <kmc> SARS 3.11 for Workgroups
01:11:53 <int-e> kmc: so you think so? I imagine electricity will fail rather quickly if people are truly wiped out
01:16:43 <kmc> eh, i don't know
01:16:51 <kmc> it was more of a joke than a serious prediction
01:17:38 <int-e> sorry. it's just that this is a question I've actually pondered... with no idea how to estimate this properly
01:20:52 <int-e> basically I have no real clue how much day to day maintenance people put into maintaining the underlying infrastructure. in this case, electricity and networks.
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02:14:58 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81617&oldid=81579 * Digital Hunter * (+2) /* Fibonacci numbers */
02:20:44 <kmc> i'm amused by the fact that, like many programming languages, OpenSCAD has a lot of libraries pertaining to threads, but "threads" means something completely different
02:44:10 <zzo38> What does "threads" mean in OpenSCAD?
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03:05:29 <kmc> zzo38: like the threads of a screw
03:05:41 <kmc> it's a 3D CAD language, so there are libraries to generate threads
03:06:50 <kmc> it doesn't have threads in the other sense, although it is a purely declarative language, so I suppose the implementation is free to evaluate stuff in parallel if it wants to
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05:57:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81618&oldid=81598 * Citrons * (-177) add description that we voted on
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08:05:39 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81619&oldid=81446 * Aspwil * (+53) /* Instructions */
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08:54:00 <esowiki> [[Category:2026]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81620&oldid=81616 * Heavpoot * (-66) Amend to {{Yearcat}}
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10:53:09 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81621&oldid=81609 * Ais523 * (-17) obviously 2026 is not an accurate creation year for this esolang
10:53:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:2026]]": not useful to have year categories for future years (even if you think an esolang will be created in a given year, you can't be sure)
10:55:27 <esowiki> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81622&oldid=81551 * Ais523 * (-17) I think the consensus is to have some warning mark on links that aren't internal to mainspace that they go someplace else (e.g. userspace or Wikipedia), so making the "wikipedia:" prefix visible
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11:33:52 <ais523> I'm wondering whether zipquines are Turing-complete, Underload/Muriel-style
11:34:22 <ais523> i.e. the zip file expands to a directory containing another zip file, which expands to a directory containing another zip file, etc., and if you keep expanding forever, either you reach an empty directory (halting) or you don't
11:34:50 <ais523> you could also take input by expanding to a directory with multiple files (choose which to open), or produce output by putting a .txt file with the output in the expanded directory
11:35:20 <myname> in rar, it should be easily doable
11:35:26 <ais523> the basic problem is as to whether the compression algorithm that .zip uses is capable of implementing a TC language when interpreted that way
11:35:50 <ais523> I don't know much about how rar works internally
11:36:13 <myname> https://github.com/taviso/rarvmtools
11:36:35 <myname> tl;dr there is an assembly to rar compiler
11:36:50 <ais523> probably for the best?
11:37:10 <ais523> "A RarVM program may execute for at most 250,000,000 instructions, at which point it will be terminated abnormally."
11:37:14 <ais523> that looks like a limit on TCness
11:37:41 <ais523> but maybe not, it could be possible to use multiple programs for the actual logic and store data in large segments that just get copied literally
11:38:29 <myname> i remember having a tiny rar file with a valid jpg of like 1 gb or something that you could use to get more storage in dropbox
11:41:27 <myname> well, just have a rarvm program printing the jpg header and drop a bunch of zeros in a loop
12:00:45 <ais523> <fizzie> I like the two weeks between the US and EU DST switches, some of my meetings are earlier than usual. ← has the EU postponed its decision to stop using daylight saving time?
12:01:07 <ais523> (the UK is keeping it for the time being, but they weren't included in the decision because of Brexit)
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12:02:39 <myname> afaik it's not postponed, it's not entirely clear whether to stay in normal or summer time
12:02:56 <ais523> looks like it was postponed to October 2021, but then there was a row related to Ireland
12:03:15 <ais523> because Northern Ireland is currently planning to keep daylight saving time but the Republic of Ireland doesn't want to be in a different timezone from it
12:03:29 <ais523> so the next steps are somewhat unclear
12:04:25 <ais523> interestingly it was IANA who caused the initial postponement, they said they couldn't get the world's timezone infrastructure updated by the deadline unless they had more notice
12:05:01 <myname> i wonder how many programs are going to be wrong
12:05:56 <ais523> timezone updates happen all the time
12:06:07 <ais523> but not very often for any individual country
12:06:32 <ais523> at least on my Ubuntu system, when a country changes its timezone rules, there's a security update to patch the timezone database with the new information
12:06:42 <ais523> (presumably because having the wrong idea of what time it is can be a security problem sometimes)
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13:04:45 <ais523> ontoquina: I think most of the channel is made up of programmers
13:04:53 <ais523> although they aren't necessarily online at any given time
13:05:11 <ais523> many of the Americans will still be asleep
13:05:53 <int-e> don't forget the bots
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13:10:36 <fizzie> That's narrowing it down, but still likely true for many.
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13:11:08 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a Befunge programmer, or a Befunge program? </deep>
13:11:08 <fungot> fizzie: let's ' ang ' er. i think ( relatively, at least in brown university, where we've stolen the material from, they have notion of classes methods, etc.
13:12:38 <int-e> . o O ( does reading K&R make you a C programmer )
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13:26:22 <ontoquina> https://www.udoo.org/udoo-quad-dual/
13:27:01 <ontoquina> i'm looking for some information which will help me to write a piece of code that will display the output voltage state of the GPIO pin
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13:29:45 <b_jonas> int-e: also we miss you, 2021-03-26 02:00 to 03:00 Jerusalem time.
13:45:25 <b_jonas> ais523: re zip quines, I expect it might be Turing complete, because zip can probably implement some kind of tag system, encoding state in the current Huffman table which it resets more often than a typical zip file, and then you apply that repeatedly with the zip quine method
13:46:02 <b_jonas> though you'd probably have to waste a lot of space to make the Adler checksum match
13:46:35 <b_jonas> "<ais523> because Northern Ireland is currently planning to keep daylight saving time but the Republic of Ireland doesn't want to be in a different timezone from it / so the next steps are somewhat unclear
13:47:54 <b_jonas> " => how's it unclear? it's been clear as a day for years that the only way the UK can keep its three contradictory promises (no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland; border between the UK and EU; no independent Northern Ireland) is to convince Ireland to leave the EU. what you say about the timezone just confirms that.
13:51:43 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (presumably because having the wrong idea of what time it is can be a security problem sometimes)" => yep, the specific example I always imagine is when there's a peace conference about some nation that wants to be an independent country specified in local time, the leader of that region has announced three weeks ago on local television that they will use a different timezone, the
13:51:49 <b_jonas> representative of the mediator country checks four sources on the web for what timezone that region uses to make sure he arrives at the right time, but nobody who understands the local language and watches that dictator on TV bothered to write to the timezone mailing list, so the mediator arrives an hour late and a war is started
13:51:51 <ais523> ontoquina: I don't think there are many experts on GPIO configuration for specific devices here
13:51:58 <ais523> it's not really a programming question, more of a finding-documentation question
13:52:16 <ais523> especially because you're trying to hook your own outputs, not take input or produce outputs
13:52:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I thought security updates were about computer security, not national security
13:53:50 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but your definition of security wouldn't have helped me when there's a fucking war 200 kilometers from the south of here
13:55:19 <b_jonas> the only saving grace is that the dictator who is the most likely to do this is leading Kazakhstan, which is clearly an independent country, not a region that newly wants to be an independent country.
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13:57:03 <ontoquina> ais523: i'm not trying to do any of that
13:57:46 <ontoquina> all i want is to make cat value repeat in a terminal for a number of times rather than just type it in
13:57:59 <ais523> ontoquina: you might be better off finding some sort of beginning-programming channel, I think; one of the important steps in programming is being able to clearly communicate what you're trying to do
13:58:11 <ais523> and if it's that step you're having trouble with, talking to experienced programmers won't normally help much
14:01:32 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, about that definition, I think at one point debian had separate categories for "security updates" and "volatile"
14:01:53 <b_jonas> and I think timezones were in the volatile category, but I'm not sure
14:01:57 <ontoquina> ais523: i found the answer already and yes it was a simple terminal entry
14:04:29 <ontoquina> the question was quite simple,.. how do i loop the command cat value in a linux terminal?
14:06:38 <fizzie> Fair enough, but that had nothing to do with C programming.
14:06:57 <ais523> ontoquina: that isn't a simple question, because it doesn't clearly define what you're trying to do or what the problem is
14:07:16 <ais523> it isn't possible to interpret what you mean without more information
14:07:25 <ais523> and I still don't have much of an idea of what you were trying to do or what you did to change it
14:07:46 <esowiki> [[BitBounce]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81623&oldid=65732 * Hakerh400 * (+2122) Add TIO links
14:08:05 <fizzie> On that topic, though, I never remember to use watch(1) for anything, even though it's kind of a neat tool.
14:08:18 <ais523> (although one possible interpretation would have lead to an amusing answer: "what's the shell command to produce the same output over and over again in a loop?" "yes")
14:08:28 <ontoquina> https://www.howtoforge.com/linux-watch-command/
14:08:56 <ais523> fizzie: I didn't know of it
14:09:01 <ais523> I guess top is just a fancier version of watch ps
14:09:45 <b_jonas> I have actually used something like watch 'some other command; top b'
14:09:57 <int-e> watch -n 0.1 date #command line "real time" clock
14:10:17 <b_jonas> possibly watch 'df $dest; top b' where $dest is where I'm writing the compressed backup
14:10:31 <fizzie> Yeah, I keep doing `while true; date; sleep 0.3; done`
14:10:42 <fizzie> Although for a one-line command I kind of like seeing the history.
14:10:46 <int-e> (actually that's redundant because `watch` also displays the date)
14:10:51 <ais523> int-e: -n 1 -p would be enough, if you ran it just marginally after the start of a second
14:10:58 <ais523> and use only 1/10 of the CPU time
14:11:12 <int-e> ais523: I didn't trust myself to do that.
14:11:15 <ontoquina> right sure i understand what you are saying
14:11:32 <int-e> (the "marginally after the start of a second part, that is)
14:13:44 <int-e> ais523: I did that this morning around 2am :) (And I only used it for a few seconds anyway)
14:14:01 <ais523> I don't think I've watched the daylight saving time in ages
14:14:05 <ais523> was asleep when it happened today
14:17:51 <b_jonas> oh, and I think I've been using (watch ls $dest) or similar to watch the list of compressed backup files grow
14:18:48 <ais523> my usual technique for that (not that I use it very often) is just to run ls manually every now and then
14:18:52 <b_jonas> in one screen window; the other window shows the output from my compressed backup tool (which is a perl script that is one of the longest lived utility that I wrote, and might soon beat cbstream in that ranking) and from the 7z compressor that it invokes
14:19:19 <ais523> I normally do my backups with rsync
14:19:37 <ais523> I've tried a variety of tools over the years, but rsync has the benefit of being incredibly simple
14:20:02 <ais523> (and producing backups that can be restored without it)
14:20:20 <ais523> compressing backups is of course possible, but I'm not completely sure it's worth it, especially as fast compressors tend not to get good ratios
14:20:44 <fizzie> I've settled on bip and some homegrown infrastructure around it.
14:21:13 <fizzie> The latter is that IRC proxy, which I've also settled on, but isn't related to backups.
14:21:34 <b_jonas> ais523: compression helps for full backups, where the file system contains a lot of files that compress well even with fast compressors, but admittedly this was more important back when I wrote backups to CDs or DVDs
14:22:15 <b_jonas> it won't help for backing up all my JPEG photos obviously
14:22:33 <ais523> right, the paradox of compressed backups is that the files that compress well are generally the small ones that don't need compressing
14:22:42 <ais523> because the big ones are probably stored in a compressed format already
14:23:43 <fizzie> Optical disc images are one category of files that can be reasonably big yet sometimes still compressible.
14:24:05 <fizzie> (Because of whoever made the disc wanted the program using it to be able to read data without worrying about compression.)
14:24:08 <b_jonas> ais523: (1) small files don't matter, for a backup I use solid compression because I don't need to be able to random access individual files from the backup quickly; (2) I have a build directory with lots of third party software source code that is uncompressed at any moment, and I don't bother excluding the uncompressed versions from the backup
14:25:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: you'd think that, but have you checked how large the live system image is on a debian hybrid installer and live image DVD? it seems impossible to fit both the live image and package repository in that space even with compression
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14:27:16 <b_jonas> my old DOS boot floppy uncompresses every program to a ramdisk, so most of the contents is a zip.zip compressed archive, with only IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS, COMMAND.COM, HIMEM.SYS, RAMDRIVE.SYS and four smaller files outside of it
14:28:02 <b_jonas> admittedly those five big files still take a lot of space on a floppy
14:28:05 <ais523> it's weird thinking about memory being larger than disk space
14:28:16 <ais523> but it was indeed the case back before hard drives were common
14:28:31 <ais523> 3.5" floppy disk is 1.44MiB
14:28:47 <ais523> and conventional memory was 640KiB, but systems normally also had some amount of unconventional memory
14:28:51 <ais523> so it would have been pretty close
14:29:06 <b_jonas> people didn't have 640 KiB when they had 1.44MiB floppies
14:29:15 <int-e> was it ever common to have 360kb floppy, 640k RAM?
14:29:34 <b_jonas> wasn't the 360k floppy called "double density"? or is that the 720K?
14:29:52 <b_jonas> and people usually had two disk drives if they didn't have a hard drive, and they did usually have a hard drive, even if a small one
14:29:53 <ais523> I think high density was 1.44 and double was 720, but I may be completely wrong on that
14:29:58 <ais523> it's hard to remember after this long
14:30:08 <int-e> 180k per side = single density?
14:30:27 <ais523> I know that on one computer I used, the floppy drive access light went orange for one density of floppy disk and green for the other commonly used density
14:30:28 <b_jonas> I think there's some trick with "double sided", but maybe that's only for 5 inch (CD-sized) floppies
14:30:37 <int-e> it's complicated because those two dimensions developed independently (two-sided floppies and higher density)
14:30:50 <ais523> I've used 5¼ inch floppy disks before, but not on a PC
14:31:21 <ais523> they're much simpler than the 3½ disks, which have some sort of automatically sliding cover to cover the disk itself
14:31:45 <b_jonas> I think the smallest PC I've actually worked on was a laptop with 1M of RAM and 20M of hard disk
14:31:49 <ais523> the 5¼, there wasn't a cover on the disk itself, and the disk came with a little paper jacket that you used to protect it from dust when it wasn't inserted into a drive
14:32:40 <ais523> apparently 8-inch floppy disks also existed but I've never used one
14:32:49 <int-e> ais523: I think the main improvement came from the little metal disk in the center, allowing for grabbing the disk with higher precision
14:33:02 <b_jonas> ais523: I never used one, but I saw a disk drive exhibited (no longer used) somewhere
14:33:50 <int-e> but... overall, floppy disk reliability was awful for both 5 1/4" and 3 1/2", at least in my experiencxe
14:34:04 <b_jonas> also I think the write protect tabs work backwards on a 5 inch floppy versus a 3.5 inch floppy:
14:35:05 <b_jonas> the 3.5 inch one has a sliding tab and a hole means ... read-only I think, whereas a 5 inch floppy can have a hole punched through its plastic cover in a corner with possibly a plastic sticker to cover it later, and the hole means writable. or backwards. I don't remember.
14:35:09 <ais523> I had more physical failures of the disks (important connections getting jammed, etc.) than I did data loss
14:35:20 <b_jonas> and I think the 3.5 inch floppy has a possible hole on its other corner to indicate format
14:35:26 <ais523> I still have a collection of floppy disks from when I was younger, but all the data has long since been copied into my home directory
14:35:32 <ais523> so I don't consult the disks themselves any more
14:35:39 <ais523> I also have a USB floppy drive but have only used it once, I think
14:35:58 <b_jonas> I no longer have physical floppy disks or drives. I got rid of all of them, including the physical version of that boot floppy.
14:36:18 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC solid is writeable, and the hole means read-only, but I might also have that backwards
14:36:56 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's probably the saner system because then factory-made installer disks just have the sliding tab missing entirely so you can't easily overwrite them
14:37:35 <ais523> b_jonas: well you could just as easily have an entirely solid disk in that location, no tab or anything, if the opposite convention were being used
14:38:13 <b_jonas> punching a hole on a thick 3.5 inch floppy might be harder than covering the hole with one of those stickers for 5 inch floppies
14:38:42 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write_protection ... so 8" has the backward convention from 5 1/4"?
14:38:55 <int-e> That must have caused quite a few accidents.
14:39:00 <fizzie> b_jonas: I was more thinking about console game disc images, I think they're somewhat compressible sometimes.
14:39:06 <b_jonas> and of course the save icon on windows is still a floppy disk, which is becoming one of those metaphors increasingly disassociated from its origins
14:39:41 <b_jonas> oh yeah, SD cards have a physical write protect switch too, but microSD cards don't
14:39:56 <fizzie> We had a 8" floppy disk throwing competition at the university once.
14:40:00 <b_jonas> and basically all my recent SD cards are just microSD cards with adapters, because it's slightly cheaper to buy them that way
14:40:25 <ais523> int-e: I actually had a vague memory that the convention reversed at one point
14:40:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: sounds like a good way to get some use of obsolete stuff that will get discarded anyway
14:40:44 <ais523> your article says that it's 5¼ and 3½ that have opposite conventions, though
14:41:45 <b_jonas> oh yeah, audio casettes had a write protect tab to. I remember that. I no longer have audio casettes or audio casette players either.
14:42:27 <int-e> ais523: so they switched twice
14:42:27 <b_jonas> ais523: it says both: 5 inch has hole for writable; 8 inch and 3.5 inch has hole for read-only
14:42:56 <b_jonas> and audio casettes have hole for read-only too
14:44:02 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#%E2%80%8B3_1%E2%81%842-inch_disk confirms that the 3.5 inch floppies have a potential hole in the other corner indicating (some) of their format
14:45:23 <ais523> I knew audio cassettes had a hole for read-only, they used to come with tabs covering the hole that you could break off after recording if you wanted to
14:45:54 <b_jonas> also IIRC the 5 inch floppies use different formats for PC, Commodore VIC-20/64, and Amiga, on the same physical disks
14:46:23 <b_jonas> ais523: and you can insert cubes cut from rubber eraser to fill the hole
14:47:00 <b_jonas> also audio casettes also have like four physical formats, of which I've seen at least two, allowing for different quality, similar to 3.5 inch disks
14:47:39 <ais523> right, a floppy disk is basically just a magnetic surface, and formatting it magnetises it in a particular way to define areas to store data
14:48:03 <ais523> so you could change the geometry of the disk "in software" by changing things like the spacing of the tracks, locations of the sectors, etc.
14:48:22 <ais523> (although the disks typically became unreliable if you tried to format them too densely)
14:48:49 <ais523> hard drives apparently only work with one specific formatting, though, they need synchronization patterns for the drive to work
14:49:06 <ais523> and "formatting" a hard drive is actually just the creation of a filesystem, rather than the creation of the physical tracks and sectors
14:49:24 <b_jonas> for an 5 inch floppy, magnetic surface plus a physical hole that the drive can sense to find a fixed rotation angle so it can synchronize sectors to that
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14:50:06 <b_jonas> ais523: that's for newer hard drives; older ones you could also physically format, they worked rather similar to floppies with very little electronics hardware
14:50:55 <b_jonas> with most of the electronics in the hard drive controller, and most of the logic in software, specifically a ROM
14:51:13 <b_jonas> but that was before my time
14:51:28 <b_jonas> the hard disks that I used already had complicated printed circuit boards on them
14:52:42 <ais523> I think some people figured out a way to reprogram hard drive controllers to run arbitrary code
14:52:57 <ais523> (they have a "real" processor in them, the hard part is just getting the code onto it)
14:53:17 <b_jonas> that used to be a feature in the floppy disk drives for the Commodore VIC-20/64,
14:53:35 <b_jonas> with a 6502 CPU in them just as powerful as in the computer, only with rather small RAM
14:55:51 <b_jonas> I remember I was amazed when we first got a laser printer at home, a HP one, and it had a lot of megabytes of RAM built into it, perhaps 64 megabytes or something, so much that it seemed enough for a smaller PC
14:58:00 <b_jonas> I still don't know why it had that much, because it had resolution of 300 dpi, which means it can store the bitmap for a full page in one megabyte
14:59:54 <ais523> presumably there was a full PostScript interpreter on there?
15:00:07 <ais523> people don't run arbitrary code on their printers as often as they should, IMO :-P
15:03:33 <b_jonas> I don't think there was a PostScript interpreter in particular, but it did have something to allow sending graphical data well-compressed
15:03:46 <b_jonas> for reference, the model is HP LaserJet IIP
15:03:52 <b_jonas> where II is a roman numeral
15:04:33 <b_jonas> that was the era of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_LOAD_LETTER , before printers got a full dot matrix display large enough to port Doom to
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15:32:12 <ais523> I wonder if the days of word processors getting confused about the Letter vs. A4 difference are gone now, or if they're still there and it's just that I basically never use word processors nowadays
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16:32:24 <fizzie> There used to be a floppy drive controller (or several) for the PC that made it possible to use regular PC floppy drives to access a wider variety of floppy disk formats that you can using the normal interface.
16:32:40 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel
16:32:45 <fizzie> Friend of mine had one of those.
16:33:09 <fizzie> The Mk3 PCI card version, I think.
16:34:13 <fizzie> (From a brief web search, looks like the modern equivalent is the KryoFlux USB device.)
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18:01:37 <b_jonas> ais523: you'll have to ask americans. I think A4 won out so you usually get it as the default setting, so it's now people who actually have letter paper who'll get the problem, rather than us
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18:29:29 <kmc> I still find stuff set to A4 by default
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18:34:08 <zzo38> Did any software require a printer in order that it can make a calculation by PostScript codes while the computer is doing something else, in order to make two calculations at once?
18:35:11 <zzo38> (Of course it is only possible if it has the ability to do two way communication; some don't, but some do)
18:36:08 <esowiki> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81624&oldid=81622 * Not applicable * (+29) How about this?
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18:37:59 <zzo38> I had idea about programmable compression format. The file would consists of a series of sections, each with a header indicating the size and flags and kind, which can be a block to load into RAM (which can also contain executable VM code) or a stream (which contains data which can be used as input to the VM code).
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19:02:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Umanochiocciola * New user account
19:04:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81625&oldid=81597 * Umanochiocciola * (+124) /* Introductions */
19:06:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81626&oldid=81625 * Ais523 * (-7) remove section formatting from an introduction, so that new introductions go in the right place
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19:12:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81627 * Umanochiocciola * (+418) creation
19:12:58 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81628&oldid=81627 * Umanochiocciola * (-3)
19:13:25 <fizzie> Brainfuck But With Butter.
19:14:34 <kmc> everything's better with butter
19:16:47 <fizzie> I've never had I can't believe it's not butter.
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19:25:16 <arseniiv> butter tastes good, that’s why I try to evade it as it’s also so full of fats
19:25:53 <kmc> nothing wrong with fats, in moderation
19:27:44 <arseniiv> that’s why I still eat it, and some oils, and unfortunately high-cocoa chocolate :D
19:28:31 <arseniiv> but when you use butter, you want to add another bit and yet another
19:28:57 <zzo38> Use the amount specified in the recipe, I think
19:29:01 <arseniiv> especially if the food is like a sponge and takes melted butter in
19:32:06 <zzo38> Apparently some C compilers will optimize better with *(x+y-z) than x[y-z] in some cases, and they changed that in SQLite, but then hey changed it back due to some complaint
19:33:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: what type are y and z? are they 32-bit?
19:37:20 <zzo38> It looks like in this case, z is a constant. I don't know what type y is, but it may be less than 32-bits
19:38:28 <zzo38> O, it is 8-bits, it looks like
19:41:14 <fizzie> That would promote to `int` for the purposes of `y-z`. I guess not in `*(x+y-z)`, where it would just be an adjustment to the pointer.
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19:46:37 <zzo38> OK, although still that seems like it should be optimized
19:49:41 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81629&oldid=81628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2146) List commands; example; cats; format
19:50:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81630&oldid=81588 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* B */ [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]]
19:53:06 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81631&oldid=81504 * Quintopia * (+339) /* Babbage's design */
20:00:26 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81632&oldid=81631 * Quintopia * (+367) /* Commands */
20:01:22 <zzo38> I don't know if it does that only on 64-bit computers or if it does that on 32-bit also.
20:01:51 <zzo38> (Actually, I don't even know if it does that on 64-bit. I have not tested it. But, maybe it does have to do with having a pointer size bigger than int size.)
20:02:03 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81633&oldid=81632 * Quintopia * (+81) /* Babbage's design */
20:05:44 <zzo38> Even if that is the case, it shouldn't matter, since the result won't differ in this case with the type promotion
20:39:06 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81634&oldid=81633 * Quintopia * (+1909) /* Commands */
20:41:30 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81635&oldid=81634 * Quintopia * (+91) /* Babbage's design */
20:42:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hyperdawg * New user account
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21:16:29 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81636&oldid=81635 * Quintopia * (+1216) /* Commands */
21:20:38 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81637&oldid=81636 * Quintopia * (+251) /* John Walker's Assumptions */
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21:21:35 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81638&oldid=81637 * Quintopia * (-23) /* Commands */
21:26:16 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81639&oldid=81621 * Heavpoot * (+17) Undo revision 81621 by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) - undo obvious vandalism
21:35:12 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81640&oldid=81639 * Not applicable * (-17) Undo revision 81639 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) [[User:Ais523]] is an admin of esolangs.org. He/she knows what they are doing.
21:39:34 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81641&oldid=79064 * B jonas * (+58) /* See also */
21:40:02 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81642&oldid=81638 * B jonas * (+71)
21:41:07 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81643&oldid=81641 * B jonas * (-3) /* External links */ link rot
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22:57:58 <int-e> `interp c double g = 2.22507e-308L, h = strtod("2.22507e-308", NULL); fprintf(stderr, "%g %g", g, h); perror(" ");
22:58:00 <HackEso> 2.22507e-308 2.22507e-308 : Numerical result out of range
22:59:26 <int-e> that check seems a bit too tight. (Yes, DBL_MIN is a *tad* larger than 2.22507e-308)
23:16:17 <int-e> To be fair, there is a real loss of precision here, if the intent is to reproduce DBL_MIN.
23:16:22 <fizzie> Probably valid, though. C11 7.22.1.3p10: "If the result underflows (7.12.1), the [strtod] function returns a value whose magnitude is no greater than the smallest *normalized* positive number in the return type; whether `errno` acquires the value `ERANGE` is implementation-defined."
23:18:16 <int-e> yeah the fact that denormalized numbers exist makes this deceptive
23:20:49 <fizzie> And the 7.12.1 definition of underflow is: "The result underflows if the magnitude of the mathematical result is so small that the mathematical result cannot be represented, without extraordinary roundoff error, in an object of the specified type. Footnote 232) The term underflow here is intended to encompass both 'gradual underflow' as in IEC 60559 --"
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01:22:10 <esowiki> [[Functasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81644&oldid=79690 * Hakerh400 * (+1983) Add TIO links
01:41:42 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81645&oldid=81640 * Heavpoot * (+17) Undo revision 81640 by [[Special:Contributions/Not applicable|Not applicable]] ([[User talk:Not applicable|talk]]) undo further vandalism. the date there is obviously for the creation date of the esolang, not when it's put on the wiki. also, did you just use "he/she" followed by si
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01:52:35 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81646&oldid=75704 * Bangyen * (+1413)
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02:59:18 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81647&oldid=81645 * Not applicable * (-17) Undo revision 81645 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) yeah, right, "vandalism." By an admin. For a completely valid reason.
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04:33:56 <esowiki> [[Hello++++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81648&oldid=65473 * Not applicable * (+199) Proper bash interpreter, i was bored lol
05:05:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81649&oldid=81626 * Hyperdawg * (+124) /* Introductions */
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07:31:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:6-5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81650&oldid=75925 * The Esolanger * (+286) It's time I went back to this wiki.
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08:06:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DoggianoMaster * New user account
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08:10:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81651&oldid=81649 * DoggianoMaster * (+47)
08:10:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81652&oldid=81629 * DoggianoMaster * (+254)
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08:15:55 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81653 * DoggianoMaster * (+277) Created page with "A Truth Machine is a program that takes a binary digit as input (1 or 0) and if input is 0, prints 0 and halts if input is 1, goes in an infinite loop of printing 1 == Exampl..."
08:16:23 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81654&oldid=81653 * DoggianoMaster * (+4)
08:16:44 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81655&oldid=81654 * DoggianoMaster * (+15)
08:18:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck But With Buffer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81656 * DoggianoMaster * (+45) Created page with "Hi! Thanks for the nice additions to the page"
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12:16:58 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81657&oldid=81655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-269) Redirect to Truth-machine
12:24:45 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81658&oldid=80636 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) Cats; link to article here
12:42:13 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81659&oldid=76702 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+213) /* Hello, world! */ Make example; cat
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14:52:17 <b_jonas> fungot, please use "overindulge" in a sentence
14:52:17 <fungot> b_jonas: i guess so, but the great point is, compare the explicitness of ( ( 2 x ( ( 3 o 4) has the records
14:55:12 <fizzie> fungot: That didn't actually have the word "overindulge" in it.
14:55:12 <fungot> fizzie: that's a very common operation. i don't
14:55:24 <fizzie> fungot: Stop being so difficult.
14:55:24 <fungot> fizzie: while current subtract current 1
14:55:49 <fizzie> Bah, it always does that "beep boop I'm a machine" thing when it wants to stop having a serious conversation.
15:31:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81660&oldid=81573 * Strohtaler * (-540)
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15:54:09 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81661&oldid=81617 * Digital Hunter * (+450) /* Example programs */ added a cheap rot13 program -- proper one coming soon :)
16:31:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81662&oldid=81652 * Umanochiocciola * (+59) /* Commands */
16:34:29 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81663&oldid=81662 * Umanochiocciola * (+74) /* External resources */
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20:40:46 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81664 * Not applicable * (+6948) finally, my own sandbox yay
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20:50:50 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81665&oldid=81536 * Not applicable * (+1081) add sandbox link
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21:06:45 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81666&oldid=81665 * Not applicable * (+614) add IRC
21:16:43 <esowiki> [[User:Hyperdawg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81667 * Hyperdawg * (+108) Created page with "Yo, I'm Hyperdawg. I should appear as _hyperdawg, tho. I like making deadfish spin-offs like * [[Fishheads]]"
21:18:45 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81668 * Hyperdawg * (+85) Created page with "Fishheads is an esoteric programming language based on [[Deadfish]] and [[Deadfish~]]"
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21:46:26 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81669&oldid=81668 * Hyperdawg * (+132)
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23:28:35 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81670&oldid=73307 * Hakerh400 * (+2249) Add TIO links
23:50:13 <zzo38> It would seem that, when shifting by bytes for writing small-endian/big-endian numbers in a file/buffer, it can be useful to write the shift amount as an octal number. How common is this, though?
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01:22:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cnamejj * New user account
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01:34:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81671&oldid=81651 * Cnamejj * (+456)
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03:11:36 <pikhq> i havent chatted here enough in a while
03:15:20 <kmc> esoteric as always
03:15:31 <pikhq> ah good, just the way i like them
03:15:39 <kmc> i'm debianizing my new laptop
03:15:45 <kmc> i guess that's not very esoteric as linux distros go
03:16:18 <pikhq> im realizing id probably have much more joy in computing if i made a point of being recreationally esoteric, obtuse, or just straight-up weird about it more often
03:16:31 <pikhq> pity i probably should not apply that to my work
03:16:34 <kmc> well, this is a good place for that :)
03:17:07 <pikhq> many a good memory are from here
03:18:45 <pikhq> also some bad or facepalm-y ones but i guess that's what happens when youve been in an irc channel since you were a teenager
03:19:21 <kmc> i have plenty of that too
03:19:50 <pikhq> on the whole good though
03:22:22 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh is probably ready for actual use now, although there are still plans to add more things, and more testing would also be helpful.
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04:43:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:6-5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81672&oldid=81650 * Bangyen * (+345)
04:52:41 <esowiki> [[DROL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81673&oldid=75200 * Cnamejj * (+0) The `l` command squares the first register not `e` (as was listed in the docs). That appears to be a typo/cut-n-paste error since `e` is the command to decrement the second register.
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06:58:03 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81674&oldid=81663 * DoggianoMaster * (+509)
06:58:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81675&oldid=81674 * DoggianoMaster * (+19) /* Commands */
06:59:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81676&oldid=81675 * DoggianoMaster * (+0) /* Commands */
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07:21:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81677&oldid=41192 * DoggianoMaster * (+121)
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11:48:58 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81678&oldid=80009 * Shahryar * (+59) Added hello world program
12:25:14 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81679&oldid=81676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+176) /* Commands */ Add code tags
12:34:43 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81680&oldid=81678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) Format header
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12:53:00 <lambdabot> EGLL 301220Z AUTO 17005KT 130V230 3600 HZ NCD 21/05 Q1027 NOSIG
13:24:23 <lambdabot> LOWI 301250Z 11004KT 050V210 CAVOK 21/M01 Q1030 NOSIG
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13:57:24 <nakilon> you are totally not robots
13:58:25 <fungot> int-e: they did take a lot longer to develop
14:00:44 <nakilon> fungot when will you develop your own robot?
14:00:44 <fungot> nakilon: and said on scheme? ( what os?) outside chicago
14:01:01 <fizzie> fungot: I guess that's true, if you think of all the evolutionary steps of humans as part of the development process.
14:01:01 <fungot> fizzie: what's the difference
14:02:01 <nakilon> imagine the process where the bad build is kept being tested for 70 years
14:02:26 <nakilon> and there is no master branch
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14:22:54 <lambdabot> KAPA 301353Z 12007KT 3SM -SN BR BKN035 OVC050 M05/M07 A2999 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 4 SLP155 P0001 T10501067
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15:08:58 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81681&oldid=81664 * Not applicable * (+1073) begin work on stupidexpr
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15:55:00 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81682&oldid=81681 * Not applicable * (+1169)
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22:52:48 <esowiki> [[Realm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81684&oldid=73723 * Hakerh400 * (+646) Add TIO links
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23:30:39 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81685&oldid=81351 * Largejamie * (+306)
23:31:34 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81686&oldid=81685 * Largejamie * (+10) /* Hello, world! */
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23:32:44 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81687&oldid=81686 * Largejamie * (+285) /* Hello, world! */
23:33:05 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81688&oldid=81687 * Largejamie * (+12)
23:33:27 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81689&oldid=81688 * Largejamie * (-12) /* Hello, world! */
23:34:27 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81690&oldid=81689 * Largejamie * (+6)
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23:37:00 <esowiki> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81691 * Not applicable * (+5121) Move from sandbox (yay!)
23:39:18 <esowiki> [[PDA-er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81692 * Largejamie * (+168) Created page with "'''DFA-er''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Largejamie]] in March 2021 whose programs create and then run input on a [[Push-down automaton]]."
23:40:16 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81693&oldid=81690 * Largejamie * (+338)
23:44:09 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81694&oldid=81682 * Not applicable * (-5305) remove TINBFD
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23:47:09 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81695&oldid=81693 * Largejamie * (+62) /* Interpreters */
23:53:59 <esowiki> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81696&oldid=81691 * Not applicable * (+4410) Added categories and sample programs
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23:55:57 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81697&oldid=81695 * Largejamie * (+102)
23:56:25 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81698&oldid=81697 * Largejamie * (+0)
23:57:38 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81699&oldid=78251 * Not applicable * (+2) note that a link is interwiki
00:01:32 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81700&oldid=81698 * Largejamie * (-2) /* Overview */
00:04:10 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81701&oldid=81699 * Not applicable * (+10) i always mess up one thing.... ONE THING when editing pages.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:04:14 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81702&oldid=81535 * Largejamie * (+587)
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00:49:08 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81703&oldid=81612 * Not applicable * (+855) add stupidc and stupidexpr
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01:52:15 <zzo38> How can I find testers for my software?
01:59:43 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81704&oldid=81683 * Hyperdawg * (-44)
02:16:30 <shachaf> What sort of software is it?
02:16:51 <zzo38> (in this case, at least)
02:18:23 <zzo38> Well, it is a game engine program, for grid-based puzzle games, such as sokoban and Hero Hearts
02:31:09 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81705&oldid=81704 * Hyperdawg * (+86)
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05:07:22 <oren> the following code, when compiled with tcc -nostdlib caused tcc to segafult
05:07:27 <oren> static void test () {;} void _start() {test();}
05:25:28 <oren> what version of tcc?
05:26:38 <oren> that's the same version I have. how very odd
05:27:22 <shachaf> Oh, maybe my version is more recent.
05:27:39 <shachaf> I get the segfault from the git tag release_0_9_27, but not from what's in /usr/bin/ or ~/local/bin/
05:32:03 <shachaf> I bisected it and it looks like it was fixed in 8f6fcb709ae7b2379866c292ce478ab95dc75b48
05:32:18 <shachaf> - tccelf.c: fix a crash when GOT has no relocs (witn -nostdlib)
05:33:42 <shachaf> I bisected it and it looks like it was fixed in 8f6fcb709ae7b2379866c292ce478ab95dc75b48
05:33:55 <shachaf> I think I posted about the floating point calling convention bug I ran into a while ago.
05:36:30 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that message got double-posted. I meant to say "tcc has some bugs.".
05:38:09 <oren> well, looks like the "mob" branch does indeed fix that problem
06:09:36 <zzo38> Well, I am not using tcc. Does tcc have any GNU extensions? What version of C is implemented?
06:10:19 <zzo38> But, good if you found a bug, so that if you do use, then you can fix it
06:13:20 <zzo38> Are you supposed to add "void" after the function name to indicate that no arguments are expected?
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07:06:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81706&oldid=81660 * Strohtaler * (-124)
07:10:00 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81707&oldid=81705 * Hyperdawg * (+74)
07:12:12 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81708&oldid=81707 * Hyperdawg * (+20)
07:19:54 <zzo38> Which solitaire card games include jokers?
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07:56:42 <shachaf> zzo38: It would probably be a good idea to add void there.
07:56:48 <shachaf> But it's not required in C.
07:56:58 <shachaf> (Or maybe a recent version of C actually does require it? I'm not sure.)
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09:45:16 <fizzie> A recent (so recent it isn't out yet) version does *some* changes in that space, but still allows () in declarations, and in fact makes () in *definitions* fully equivalent with (void), not just vaguely similar. The bigger change is to outlaw non-empty identifier lists (aka, non-prototype function definitions); but the empty one is still allowed.
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09:45:33 <fizzie> C11 6.7.6.3p14: "An empty list in a function declarator that is part of a definition of that function specifies that the function has no parameters [but doesn't provide a prototype]. The empty list in a function declarator that is not part of a definition of that function specifies that no information about the number or types of the parameters is supplied."
09:45:44 <fizzie> N2596 (latest C23 draft) 6.7.6.3p13: "For a function declarator without a parameter type list: if it is part of a definition of that function the function has no parameters and the effect is as if it were declared with a parameter type list consisting of the keyword `void`; otherwise it specifies that no information about the number or types of parameters is supplied."
09:50:09 <fizzie> This should hopefully put to rest the argument about `int main() { ... }`, because up until now people have been arguing it doesn't satisfy the "`int main(void) { /* ... */ }` -- or equivalent" rule (C11 5.1.2.2.1p1), because even thouogh it "specifies that the function has no parameters", it's not 100% "equivalent". With the "as if it were declared" wording, I don't think that's reasonable any more.
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11:10:12 <arseniiv> it’s sad when people think an underspecified question “find all solutions of <…>” when there is no clarification of variables’ domains, automatically means their domains are all ℂ
11:11:31 <arseniiv> like of course there is one maximal field (or ring or what) of them all, *and* of course it is ℂ. Because they don’t know anything else at all
11:18:36 <arseniiv> I’m not even sure surreals may be considered *the* maximal ordered field in all honesty: their construction looks too dependent on what set theory model we consider. Hopefully I’m wrong and differences in their content are no larger than in that of the, say, ℝ. I don’t know in what language this idea is even expressible
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12:24:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81709&oldid=81630 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) [[DFA-er]] and [[PDA-er]]
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13:40:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: makes sense. if the function takes no parameters, then it must be called with no arguments, so the lack of prototype doesn't cause the arguments to be converted differently, so C might as well decide that that a definition without parameters counts as if there was a prototype, that won't be incompatible with no-prototype code, and it makes life easier for C++ coders
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14:08:21 <oren> running with -nostdlib makes the entry point to be named _start
14:23:44 <esowiki> [[ObjectPar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81710&oldid=8371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) See also
14:24:37 <Taneb> Is the a Busy Beaver equivalent for Turing machines equipped with halting oracles
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14:49:48 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81711&oldid=81549 * EnilKoder * (-65) /* Standard Suites and Zooms */
15:05:59 <myname> what should work different? aren't busy beavers halting eventually by definition?
15:14:23 <fizzie> The busy beaver would be, but I don't think that's inconsistent with the possibility that you could write a better busy beaver if you had access to a halting oracle. Maybe something like, a program that runs all the possible halting programs up to some size before it halts; that's something you couldn't do without a halting oracle.
15:14:29 <fizzie> (I don't have any sort of intuition on whether the answer is yes or no.)
16:48:56 <int-e> Hmm... morbid thought... they removed half of the () semantics in function declarators because K&R is half dead.
16:52:00 <int-e> Uh, what is the busy beaver question? Was there context before Taneb's malformed (I have geniune trouble deciphering it) remark?
16:56:02 <int-e> Continuing on the C train... I hate writing (void) though. It looks so silly.
17:00:47 <int-e> Oh, Taneb's "the" is just "there", and then it makes sense. That took way too long.
17:02:22 <int-e> Taneb: And then the answer is yes, of course. Note that the halting oracle is for ordinary TMs, not fully introspective; the latter would be logically inconsistent. And presumably you would count the oracle query as a single step.
17:18:26 <kmc> yeah I think you can define busy beaver for any level of the arithmetic hierarchy
17:19:42 <kmc> and BB(n) for a higher level is always strictly greater than the level below?
17:21:00 <int-e> kmc: tricky... how exactly do you define the next level of the hierarchy? what does an oracle query look like?
17:21:08 <int-e> The n-s mat be incomparable.
17:21:48 <int-e> If you properly extend the formalism so that an n-state TM is an n-state TM at higher levels as well... then yes.
17:22:37 <int-e> (with the same semantics, I should say)
17:34:46 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine#Definitions
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19:18:23 <int-e> You are in a twisty maze of passages, all alike.
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20:01:31 <arseniiv> int-e: is it that game set in a nonseparable infinite-dimensional space?
20:05:28 <int-e> arseniiv: I'm worried that you may be talking about a real thing. But no.
20:18:44 <arseniiv> yep I think it was called λPω±U*
20:19:41 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81712&oldid=81694 * Not applicable * (-48) oops forgot to remove TINBFD from the list
20:19:47 <arseniiv> took a while to remember that complicated name
20:20:18 <NotApplicable> probably takes equally as long to type it without copy-pasting the whole thing
20:20:32 <int-e> arseniiv: the maze originates in the original advent/Zork... it has found its way into other text adventurees as well.
20:21:23 <arseniiv> int-e: I suspected that was an allusion
20:22:24 <arseniiv> NotApplicable: ha, if only! Let me type it via my AHK script starting from now
20:23:53 <arseniiv> it is typed as \lambda␣P\omega␣\pm␣U* where ␣ is the space
20:24:43 <arseniiv> many replacements based on [La]TeX’s names for symbols, but many others are named completely differently
20:25:07 <arseniiv> NotApplicable: replacements are on my side only, of course
20:25:37 <arseniiv> I can’t inject arbitrary code to Freenode servers. Yet
20:25:38 <NotApplicable> i was just wondering if xChat would do the same lol
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21:08:54 <pikhq> arseniiv_: only code from an enumerated, limited set?
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22:44:41 <esowiki> [[Grain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81713 * Grom * (+364) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Grain |paradigms=not specified |author=[[User:Grom|Grom]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |class=[[:Category:Turing_complete|Turing complete]] |majorimp..."
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