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01:36:30 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81718&oldid=81711 * EnilKoder * (+225) added comment for unimplemented ideas
01:57:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * New user account
01:58:13 <arcsor5> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
02:02:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81719&oldid=81671 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+254)
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02:08:28 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81720&oldid=81467 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+91) Fixed a broken link in the "Contact him" section
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02:50:55 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81721&oldid=79111 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+97)
02:51:13 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81722&oldid=81721 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+0)
03:11:02 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81723&oldid=81717 * Grom * (+195)
03:11:23 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81724&oldid=81723 * Grom * (+1)
03:14:17 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81725&oldid=81724 * Grom * (+1) /* Properties of the Master Function */
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03:42:19 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81726&oldid=81725 * Grom * (+108)
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04:15:13 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81727&oldid=81726 * Grom * (+378)
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07:46:37 <nakilon> annual 1 April AM contest starts in 6 hours https://codeforces.com/contests/1505
07:47:07 <nakilon> I'm lazy to participate there but it's usually in esoteric languages so you might be interested
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11:12:45 <b_jonas> and SIGBOVIK 2021 conference starts in less than a day, with online video stream: http://sigbovik.org/2021/
11:21:50 <fizzie> Thanks, I would have missed it. It might not even be a ridiculous time to catch live.
12:39:59 <b_jonas> it's early in the morning I think... let me check
12:41:16 <b_jonas> ah no, it says "Starting at 6pm EDT on April 1, 2021", that's 2021-04-01 22:00Z
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12:41:35 <b_jonas> I thought it said "6pm PDT" for some reason
12:46:12 <arseniiv> oh, new SIGBOVIK! As if the previous was yesterday, time flies like an arrow
12:47:28 <arseniiv> oh, 22:00Z is pretty late for me to watch videos
12:48:08 <arseniiv> though anyway I mostly read the paper sum
12:50:22 <HackEso> thank? No such file or directory
12:57:35 <b_jonas> you can watch the video on the next day
13:53:49 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81728&oldid=81727 * Grom * (+129)
13:54:38 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81729&oldid=81728 * Grom * (-8) /* Evidence of viability */
14:00:27 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81730&oldid=81729 * Grom * (+9) /* Evidence of viability */
14:05:46 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81731&oldid=81730 * Grom * (+2) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:05:57 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81732&oldid=81731 * Grom * (-1) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:08:22 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81733&oldid=81732 * Grom * (+22) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:11:32 <nakilon> finally Ruby code goes vertical like Befunge: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/17768
14:14:03 <myname> tbh i like the basic idea
14:14:36 <myname> like, maybe not that exact syntax, but that would make mass assigns and similar more readable
14:16:15 <int-e> fungot: when will this tiresome day be over?
14:16:15 <fungot> int-e: " erik. on c, for example, it's true that in scheme
14:16:51 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81734&oldid=81733 * Grom * (+202) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:23:51 <fizzie> I should make that filter more permissive.
14:24:19 <fizzie> Nothing wrong with /* Formal Definition of 𝕄 and 𝔾 */ at least for this channel, we're very UTF-8 friendly.
14:30:17 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81735&oldid=81734 * Grom * (+174)
14:30:29 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81736&oldid=81735 * Grom * (+1) /* Evidence of viability */
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14:54:54 <drunken_lizard> Anyone have general advice for writing a Rockstar program that prints a specific message? In a totally mad and convoluted way, ofc
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16:49:54 <esowiki> [[No Literals, Gotos Only, Final Destination!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81737&oldid=60888 * Something Fawful * (+37) /* Official Implementation */ added... finally (took me long enough)
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16:51:42 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81738&oldid=81661 * Digital Hunter * (+232) /* ROT13 cipher */
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17:32:14 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81739&oldid=81736 * Grom * (+179) /* Evidence of viability */
17:33:51 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81740&oldid=81739 * Grom * (+0) /* Evidence of viability */
17:34:23 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81741&oldid=81740 * Grom * (-70) /* Evidence of viability */
17:34:31 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81742&oldid=81741 * Grom * (-1) /* Evidence of viability */
17:36:29 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81743&oldid=81738 * Digital Hunter * (+66) /* Commands and keywords */ important clarification to "succeed"
17:52:45 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81744&oldid=81742 * Grom * (+185) /* Evidence of viability */
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18:16:13 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81745&oldid=74674 * Hakerh400 * (+601) Add TIO links
18:25:38 <nakilon> amazing how hard it is to find any decent public chat logs in Russian
18:26:44 <nakilon> had to parse some buggy php forum with some chat and chat-archive plugins
18:27:11 <nakilon> broken bb codes, broken closing html tags, etc. -- got 73k pairs of message in the end
18:29:15 <nakilon> broken tags: https://i.imgur.com/gl4bWhf.png broken bb: https://i.imgur.com/WtX7OHN.png
18:30:00 <nakilon> actually I have some megabytes of IRC logs somewhere on backup HDD, but I thought it would be easier to get some from the internet than to find those
18:30:59 <arseniiv> I think I’m lacking in English words to console or sympathize
18:31:33 <arseniiv> yeah something it’s way quicker to search something out there than in a mess of a file system you created :D
18:33:50 <nakilon> and all it to make another talking bot for my empty channel
18:35:28 <nakilon> I made a KiwiIRC webpage that people can open it in a browser to leave me a message but from what they write it appeared that they are stupid enough to think that when they join my chat I have to respond to them immediately
18:36:32 <nakilon> like I'm 24/7 support manager
18:36:43 <nakilon> so I'll make the bot to autorespond ..D
18:37:30 <b_jonas> also a few megabytes is probably not enough
18:37:50 <b_jonas> but good luck analyzing IRC logs, they're terrible and often full of spam and hard to understand jargon
18:37:58 <nakilon> megabytes were good; 73k is probably not enough
18:38:07 <arseniiv> nakilon: wait, do you like Q&A for them or what? Or they just say hi and expect you to hi back immediately? :o
18:38:37 <nakilon> arseniiv some mix of predefined QA and generated responses I guess
18:40:07 <nakilon> b_jonas the hard thing is grammar errors people do (
18:40:24 <arseniiv> I’m too sad this ##math isn’t so esoteric, a couple of times I joined there it wasn’t very good for my questions, IIRC
18:40:57 <nakilon> IIRC it wasn't helpful for me either
18:41:27 <nakilon> not that I can speak their language
18:41:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: that's what you get anywhere if you want instant low latency chat with people rather than carefully composed long form replies with hours of latency between users on a web forum. IRC just made sure we have that in writing, not just spoken in person and on telephone
18:41:40 <arseniiv> I wanted to ask something about rotating bunches of vectors here but remembered about ##math and now I’m mixed
18:42:12 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can't easily make a good forum whose topic is just "math", because by default it gets flooded by boring math homework questions
18:42:21 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can ask here about rotating bunches of vectors though
18:42:34 <nakilon> b_jonas for some reason average Russian chat text has 5-10 times more errors in the words that average English chat text
18:42:48 <arseniiv> chats are awesome, though one-line chats are a bit Procrustean
18:43:07 <nakilon> but the sentences are incorrect more often because of non-native speakers
18:43:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know! I’m just have issues with myself spamming esoteric questions in #esoteric
18:44:08 <nakilon> one-line chat logs are easier to parse ..D
18:45:04 <nakilon> also private messaging logs are easier to build message pairs but they aren't shared publicly
18:46:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: did you really sample all the average English text chat and the average Russian text chat? there's so much of it, at least for English, most in places that I avoid, that I have no idea what the average is like
18:46:33 <arseniiv> now I wonder about Hungarian, Finnish and some other chats (do I have a poor memory on who is a native speaker of what)
18:46:51 <nakilon> b_jonas I can judge by current dialog and reddit that I read every day
18:47:06 <b_jonas> I don't know, I do very little chat in Hungarian. about one small community these days, plus some chat for dayjob
18:47:12 <nakilon> average Russian chats have mistakes in every 10th word
18:47:15 <b_jonas> nakilon: ah yes. I rarely watch reddit
18:47:27 <nakilon> Russian would write "vord" instead of "word" by 10% chance
18:47:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you have any guess why it has more mistakes?
18:47:55 <b_jonas> isn't it just that you select for the English chats that have less mistakes, but there are fewer choices for Russian chat?
18:48:22 <arseniiv> nakilon: reminded me how I misspelled “wave” as “vawe” many times
18:48:26 <b_jonas> I mean there's definitely a large spectrum for English too
18:48:29 <nakilon> I guess something about how the pronounciation and spelling correspond to each other
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18:49:07 <b_jonas> I often see users on English and French chat that seem to type old style SMS speech that I find hard to read
18:49:27 <b_jonas> with abbreviations that are often cryptic to me
18:49:45 <nakilon> b_jonas I read not only IT subreddits, a lot is about games
18:52:05 <nakilon> also ~10% of native Russian speakers are Ukrainian citizens and it hurts to read them today after years of ukrainization and prohibition to learn and sometimes even speak Russian
18:53:08 <b_jonas> so? English chat has a lot of non-native speakers too, with often questionable command of English
18:53:26 <nakilon> it's often obvious that someone is from Ukraine and has never had even a single lesson of Russian and in result they don't know neither of two languages because they are forced to speak one language in school but use another one at home
18:53:55 <b_jonas> sure, that happens in many places
18:55:28 <b_jonas> and yes, sometimes you can guess what native language someone speaks. it's easier in spoken text, but still often possible in written
18:56:20 <b_jonas> I used to watch a game stream by someone speaking English with the second most egregious Hungarian accent that I've heard from people who regularly speak English
18:56:34 <b_jonas> the stream is still there, I'm just less interested
18:57:15 <nakilon> no one recognizes I'm Ukrainian though
18:58:45 <nakilon> you could even recognize Belorussian by a surname but Ukrainian and Russian surnames are more mixed
18:59:27 <b_jonas> sure, some people speak English so well that it's harder to tell
19:02:10 <nakilon> there are basically only two clues: 1) how I pronounce "шо" instead of "что" ("what") -- this is how you speak Russian in Eastern Ukraine, and 2) how I pronounce the sound "г" ("gh") that is so subtle that no one spots it unless tries to
19:02:35 <arseniiv> ah btw the question is interesting, though not mine. We have an euclidean space, say of dimension 3 (the original question is just about 3) and vectors v1, …, vN and w1, …, wN;
19:02:35 <arseniiv> we are interested in value of (v1 ⋅ R(w1)) … (vN ⋅ R(wN)) for an average rotation R, i. e. we want to integrate <product> dμ(R) with respect to a Haar measure μ on SO(3) which is 1 on all of SO(3);
19:02:35 <arseniiv> I’ve written various expressions involving 3D vector operations or quaternions (IIRC Haar measure on SO(3) corresponds to an usual euclidean-induced measure on S⁴, the sphere of unit quaternions,
19:02:35 <arseniiv> which cover SO(3) doubly but that’s of no pain for this integration) but no use, the integral for even N = 1 looks unapproachable;
19:02:35 <arseniiv> for N = 1 it should be 0 (pretty obvious), for N = 2 the asker gives an empirical result (v1 ⋅ v2) (w1 ⋅ w2), and for N = 3 they claim (v1 ⋅ (v2 × v3)) (w1 ⋅ (w2 × w3));
19:02:35 <arseniiv> ⋅ is the inner product and × is a cross product; and I think we can slap a fixed orientation to the euclidean space for less worrying, as we use only SO, not O
19:03:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: can your timezone be a clue too?
19:03:26 <nakilon> also when I speak to another Ukrainian (and we have some uplifted mood, maybe after a beer) we both start speaking with much more Ukrainian accent
19:04:17 <nakilon> b_jonas only one timezone in Ukraine ..D but you can timezone Russian citizen by his vocabulary similar to how you can differ far parts of US
19:04:58 <b_jonas> nakilon: exactly, but I mean your timezone might be a clue how someone tells that you're Ukranian
19:05:13 <nakilon> though while US pronounciation may differ from state to state it's much less different between parts of Russia even though it's bigger, idk why
19:06:39 <b_jonas> nakilon: dunno, that should depend on television and radio, but I don't know much about the history
19:07:06 <nakilon> maybe US was more influence by immigration?
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19:12:45 <nakilon> "21:47:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you have any guess why it has more mistakes?" -- oh, maybe because mistakes aren't in roots actually but in suffixes -- you use them in Russian to change the meaning of the word while in English you rather change the order of words
19:17:11 <nakilon> for example, "server / on the server" is "сервер / на серверЕ"; my CTO always wrote "на серверИ" -- that was awful
19:23:57 <oerjan> серверИ doesn't seem to be a valid form according to wiktionary
19:24:58 <nakilon> yep, absolutely invalid word, and it's a pretty common mistake to write И instead of Е in the end
19:25:10 <arseniiv> that’s even more eye-straining than “у бабушке”
19:27:42 <arseniiv> I’m glad I almost never see that
19:28:03 <nakilon> basically when someone can't learn own language he can't learn English and I believe if you can't English you very likely can't program
19:28:38 <arseniiv> at least because good docs are in English yep
19:29:48 <arseniiv> my first major dive in English was because of Delphi 7 docs :D though that one was very shallow. Several years latter I started reading webfiction
19:31:37 <nakilon> yeah, those F1 Windows API and stdlib docs -- you was either learning from them or from nowhere
19:35:23 <nakilon> in ~1990 there were Russian books for Spectrum / BASIC, not much computer science in them but a decent start, and then the world has changed somehow; maybe because of Internet, idk
19:36:53 <nakilon> of course it's my point of view that is attached to my age
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19:49:28 <arseniiv> I think good physical books on programming and CS were pretty rare; I haven’t had one ever. Had plenty of somethings quickly becoming outdated and having not too much info, like a book on JS or a book about some interesting algorithms and data structures with Delphi code, but I wasn’t tempted to type all that code, and I think I had no internet these days so I couldn’t just download it. Ugh. So the book mostly sat on the shelf. Oh
19:49:28 <arseniiv> I was glad I now understood regexes were compilable into graphs nice to use, but anyway the presentation wasn’t the best (it always finished with a page or several of plain code), nor was the breadth, though what do I want from ~300 pages
19:52:02 <arseniiv> one needs thousands of pages and tinkering with hundreds of examples of various style to gain a versatile enough understanding, shame paper books aren’t good with this these times. A couple of topics, surely — but at least a decent slice of a discipline? noo
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19:54:18 <arseniiv> you can have a reference for a small language like Lua, and its compact standard library, but you won’t learn how to use a programming language as an instrument decently, only knowing its reference, unfortunately. You can have an elementary group theory, but no more. Something is not right in the universe :D
19:56:30 <arseniiv> though it’s well-known since long ago that human learning is pretty inefficient, of course, why do I reiterate that
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22:05:30 <fizzie> It's SIGBOVIK time, I guess. I see they've made the proceedings available already.
22:40:36 <b_jonas> oh drat, I missed some of it
22:40:57 <b_jonas> to see what talks I missed
22:42:23 <zzo38> Well, there is the report, you could still read that
22:46:33 <fizzie> I didn't see a schedule of talks, but there was a keynote from tom7 on the paper Lowestcase and Uppestcase letters: Advances in Derp Learning, and then regular talks for: Stone Tools as Palaeolithic Central Unit Processors, and Macro-driven metalanguage for writing Pyramid Scheme programs, in addition to this ongoing bird thing.
22:46:59 <fizzie> They said for fairness the keynote was selected randomly just now, so I guess they couldn't have put it in a schedule ahead of time.
22:47:18 <fizzie> I do like this model where the answers to the Q&A questions are prerecorded.
23:02:34 <fizzie> Oh no, I don't have an SSTV decoder at all.
23:10:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and he promises a longer video version of his talk too
23:10:37 <b_jonas> a director's cut or something
23:10:47 <b_jonas> which I assume will be on his youtube channel after the conference
23:11:50 <b_jonas> he also said that I got him to play shapez.io, and that took up much of his time before the conference, and I'm not sure if I should consider that a success or a failure because it means worse sigbovik talk,
23:12:37 <b_jonas> but I recommended that game two months ago, so how was I to know he'd start playing it shortly before the conference deadline. should I have warned him that it will hook him for weeks?
23:12:49 <b_jonas> I mean he's an adult, he can waste his time on his own
23:14:25 * nakilon has wasted last hours to deploy his first Ruby code onto Google Cloud Functions as a backend for the future chat bot
23:16:22 <fizzie> There were some references in the keynote video about it being ruined (or some other adjective) by the SIGBOVIK organizing committee.
23:22:15 <fizzie> This was nice. I don't know if all the papers and/or presentations were that great, but I'd kind of been missing the conference atmosphere.
23:25:21 <b_jonas> ok, the conference ended, so I'll rewind and watch the talks at the start, including tom7's
23:25:33 <b_jonas> though I think I'll want to see the full version and read the proceedings too
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23:50:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: full version of tom7's talk is out at https://www.twitch.tv/videos/971776826
00:16:09 <shachaf> b_jonas: Or at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLRdruqQfRk
00:16:24 <shachaf> Unless the talk is different from the video?
00:16:59 <shachaf> No, looks like the same thing.
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00:31:36 <fizzie> Heh, nice to see QSSTV managed to decode that one bit.
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00:46:41 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but I recommended that game two months ago, so how was I to know he'd start playing it shortly before the conference deadline => lol
00:51:13 <arseniiv> I marvel at this interconnectedness
00:51:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, I pasted the wrong thing. it's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLRdruqQfRk
00:51:53 <nakilon> I would rather play Mindustry
00:52:25 <arseniiv> okay good morning everyone I’ll go see some dreams
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01:12:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: it has two nice puzzles in it, I recommended it to Tom for the puzzles specifically
01:12:48 <b_jonas> the two puzzles are at high levels, the earlier levels have to teach you all the tools that you can use to solve them
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02:52:51 <kmc> what's this about SSTV?
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03:31:08 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81746&oldid=81743 * Digital Hunter * (+915) /* Example programs */ added a roman numerals program
03:33:18 <fizzie> kmc: The SIGBOVIK e-conference stream had a part where they had a slide up that just said "Is it possible to have images in an audio-only talk? (Please get your slow-scan television decoders ready.)"
03:34:00 <fizzie> Plus two more for the Q&A section. And a tune.
03:34:34 <fizzie> (Not particularly exciting images, but it's the principle of the thing.)
03:34:47 <kmc> what timestamp is that at
03:34:55 <fizzie> Around 01:16:15 in the https://www.twitch.tv/videos/971776826 recording.
03:35:00 <kmc> I decoded some SSTV images from HAARP once, that was neat
03:35:30 <fizzie> Googling around the topic, I learned they send SSTV images from the ISS sometimes.
03:35:56 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81747&oldid=74672 * Hakerh400 * (+2586) Add TIO links
03:36:14 <kmc> I've tried to receive those too, but had pretty poor results
03:36:26 <kmc> and I'm not sure why, since other people have good results with even a very modest setup
03:36:45 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81748&oldid=81747 * Hakerh400 * (-2) /* Cat */
03:37:37 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81749&oldid=81748 * Hakerh400 * (-8) /* Reverse the sequence */
03:43:07 <kmc> I'd like to actually make a contact with SSTV one day
03:44:01 <kmc> I very rarely see people using it on HF
03:44:08 <kmc> but I guess there are scheduled SSTV nets that I could try to join
03:44:25 <kmc> I also don't have a very good HF setup although I've been working on that a little
03:54:55 <kmc> the particular use of SSTV in the SIGBOVIK reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellschreiber
03:55:58 <kmc> which is closer to RTTY in application, but closer to SSTV in implementation
03:56:06 <kmc> and is old as hell and definitely esoteric
04:12:18 <pikhq> some day im going to do things that are cool and esoteric again
05:46:28 <zzo38> The most recent SIGBOVIK mentions Klondike solitaire cards, and how to make the game impossible. I prefer the Algerian solitaire cards (and other games), though; not Klondike so much.
05:47:10 <zzo38> Do you prefer the Algerian solitaire cards?
05:50:26 <zzo38> I also remember once (was it SIGBOVIK?) they mentioned how to make the longest chess game.
05:55:08 <kmc> how is that?
06:03:11 <zzo38> One rule of chess is that if neither player can checkmate the other player after any sequence of moves even if the players cooperate to do so, then no more moves are possible and the game ends in a draw. They mentioned that there, but I had also known about it earlier, as it was used in some retro chess problems.
06:03:12 <esowiki> [[User:Largejamie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81750 * Largejamie * (+143) Created page with "Hello! I'm Jamie Large and I have the very creative username largejamie. Languages I've invented: * [[DFA-er]] * [[PDA-er]] * [[Airline food]]"
06:06:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh! I was wondering if it was fax or modem noises, I think I didn't pay attention tot he "slow-scan television decoders" thing
06:08:22 <b_jonas> so does the sound in the twitch stream actually carry enough information to decode that?
06:09:08 <b_jonas> and is this another of those formats that are designed to be transmitted through an analog telephone line, like fax and modems?
06:09:40 <b_jonas> I mean telephone line in a way that passes through the telephone exchanges
06:12:52 <b_jonas> and does it use compression like fax, or uncompressed like analog television?
06:15:11 <b_jonas> apparently it is uncompressed
06:15:23 <kmc> b_jonas: yes, it contains enough information to decode. I did it with qsstv earlier this evening
06:16:13 <zzo38> I read about slowscan, but I did not write a slowscan decoder in Farbfeld Utilities yet. (Presumably, it would acept the audio stream on stdin, given the format with the command-line arguments.)
06:17:19 <kmc> b_jonas: SSTV is primarily designed to be transmitted over analog radio links using the same bandwidth as a voice transmission, usually by connecting the encoding/decoding device (these days almost always a computer) to an analog radio using the same mode used for voice (FM or SSB)
06:18:40 <kmc> it's uncompressed and analog in nature; like fast-scan analog TV it has discrete scanlines, but is continuous in the horizontal dimension and the luma/chroma dimensions
06:22:59 <b_jonas> kmc: so not telephone lines. I see.
06:23:05 <kmc> noise or interfering signals in the radio channel will appear as static in the image
06:23:42 <kmc> you could use SSTV over a telephone line
06:23:49 <kmc> sounds like this was maybe done in the early days of SSTV
06:23:52 <kmc> > The concept of SSTV was introduced by Copthorne Macdonald[1] in 1957–58.[2] He developed the first SSTV system using an electrostatic monitor and a vidicon tube. It was deemed sufficient to use 120 lines and about 120 pixels per line to transmit a black-and-white still picture within a 3 kHz telephone channel. First live tests were performed on the 11-meter ham band – which was later given to the CB
06:23:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘of’
06:23:58 <kmc> service in the US. In the 1970s, two forms of paper printout receivers were invented by hams.
06:23:59 <b_jonas> sounds like it was made for decoding with old equipment, like analog television
06:25:00 <kmc> yes, the idea dates back to the 60s
06:25:06 <kmc> was used on old space missions
06:25:13 <kmc> though in a different form from what hams use today
06:26:11 <kmc> the bandwidth of a SSB transmission on ham radio is pretty much the same as that of an old school analog voice call
06:26:17 <kmc> although the noise level will typically be much higher
06:29:00 <kmc> hams use SSTV now because a) we like old stuff and b) it fits in narrow bandwidth
06:29:44 <kmc> most of the HF bands have only 50 - 500 kHz of bandwidth, which is shared among all users of that band, potentially worldwide
06:29:51 <b_jonas> as for old technology, I'm still amazed by how between 1900 and 1910, people managed to set up working transatlantic telegraphy systems used in production both on radio and on undersea cables, all before they had cathode ray tubes or modern plastics
06:30:06 <kmc> yeah it's pretty neat
06:31:05 <b_jonas> have I mentioned yet why I looked up the history about that?
06:31:06 <kmc> it's pretty fucking convenient that the earth provides a natural equivalent of bouncing signals off a satellite, in the form of the ionosphere
06:31:28 <kmc> not an exact equivalent, of course; it's very complicated to do it well
06:31:35 <kmc> but it's kind of amazing that you can do it at all
06:31:47 <b_jonas> that and the Earth manages to shield us from radition
06:31:47 <kmc> and even more amazing that people got it working at basically the dawn of the modern era
06:32:00 <kmc> I think these two facts are related
06:32:06 <kmc> but i'm not too good at geophysics
06:32:40 <kmc> what's even weirder is how little HF radio is used these days
06:32:46 <kmc> it still gets a fair amount of use but like
06:32:59 <b_jonas> maybe the ionosphere is related to the lower frequencies shielding only? I don't know
06:33:24 <kmc> skywave propagation of HF is this interesting natural phenomenon that was very important for human technology for a period of less than 100 years
06:33:27 <kmc> and is much less important today
06:33:32 <kmc> but it still works and it's still fun to do!
06:34:04 <kmc> it still blows my mind that I can set up a crappy wire antenna in my backyard and exchange text messages with someone in Russia by pumping less than 100 watts of power into that wire
06:34:10 <b_jonas> sure, but most of the communication goes on the higher bandwidth channels, I think that's natural
06:34:40 <b_jonas> kmc: what distance is that? I don't know how close you are to Russia
06:34:46 <kmc> I'm in San Francisco
06:34:56 <kmc> so even the far east part of russia is far
06:35:06 <kmc> and i've managed to message someone in/near the european part
06:35:16 <kmc> yeah, modern communication satellites provide way more throughput than all of HF combined, and much more reliably
06:35:37 <kmc> though at a price
06:36:04 <kmc> b_jonas: why were you looking up the history of transatlantic telegraphy?
06:36:09 <b_jonas> that too, but a lot of data is just sent on long distance cables and then transmitted on higher frequency radio near the two ends
06:36:38 <kmc> one interesting niche of renewed interest in HF radio is high frequency (heh) stock trading
06:36:44 <kmc> where latency is much more important than throughput
06:37:01 <b_jonas> kmc: https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47171973#47171973
06:37:36 <b_jonas> I thought they use undersea cables and computers in the middle of the Atlantic for that
06:38:24 <kmc> signals travel much slower in cables than in free space
06:38:25 <b_jonas> how do they get permission to use HF for that though?
06:38:49 <kmc> some kind of commercial radio license from the FCC and whatever other national agencies are involved
06:38:50 <b_jonas> kmc: even in optical cables?
06:39:33 <b_jonas> ok. because I'm quite sure that trading thing wouldn't fall into amateur radio permissions.
06:39:43 <kmc> the refractive index of glass is about 1.5
06:40:04 <kmc> so light travels 1/3 slower in glass than in air
06:40:18 <kmc> (air being very close to 1)
06:40:30 <kmc> of course the skywave path is not direct, it bounces off the ionosphere
06:40:30 <b_jonas> and a bit slower because it has to bounce around the cable, right?
06:40:36 <kmc> but the fiber optic signal does a bunch of bouncing too
06:40:48 <kmc> and yeah, they aren't doing it on amateur HF bands
06:41:07 <kmc> there are a bunch of licensed (and some unlicensed) users of HF spectrum besides hams
06:42:16 <kmc> shortwave broadcasters, aviation, marine weather reports, emergency comms in the australian outback, government, NGOs, military, spies
06:42:56 <kmc> time signals, ionospheric research
06:43:19 <kmc> also medical, industrial, and scientific uses that have nothing to do with long distance communication
06:43:27 <kmc> such as curing the glues within plywood by heating it with RF
06:44:01 <kmc> there are a few ISM bands within shortwave frequencies for such uses, just as there's a 2.4 GHz band used by microwave ovens and WiFi
06:44:16 <kmc> i'm told you can hear some of the big chinese plywood factories from across the pacific ocean
06:44:55 <kmc> oh that reminds me another interesting use of HF: over-the-horizon radar
06:46:19 <kmc> like the Russian Woodpecker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga_radar
06:47:17 <kmc> which was a massive pain in the ass to everyone as the Russians would transmit very powerful signals on whatever frequencies they felt like
06:47:39 <kmc> with little to no regard for the internationally recognized users of those frequencies
06:53:14 <kmc> 'That leaves “turn a river in its bed” as the only element of the poem that isn't possible with technology, not only in 1911 but even today, but that one is probably a hyperbole.' <-- I don't think it's hyperbole, just an idiomatic / poetic way of describing redirecting a river through earthworks
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06:55:30 <kmc> 'And “You shall see and hear your cracking question hurled” because it's a stupid spark gap radio, because the reasonable kind of amplitude modulated radio telegraph transmissions were invented but not in general use yet in 1911.'
06:56:26 <b_jonas> kmc: I did later find that there was an intermediate technology between spark gap and vacuum tube
06:56:27 <kmc> spark gaps were replaced with continuous wave long before amplitude modulation became practical
06:56:41 <kmc> probably thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_alternator ?
06:57:15 <b_jonas> let me check, I know where I read about this
06:57:43 <kmc> there's one in the world that still transmits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_Day
07:00:14 <b_jonas> "https://www.navalgazing.net/Signalling-Part-2" says "Poulsen arc", which seems different
07:00:48 <kmc> huh, interesting
07:01:14 <kmc> I haven't heard about that
07:01:16 <kmc> thanks for the link
07:07:37 <b_jonas> as for new technology, I find modern power supplies impossible. it looks like you shouldn't be able to transform voltage in such tiny packages made of mostly capacitors and be more efficient than the best traditional power supplies.
07:08:33 <b_jonas> makes me wonder what magic that I thought would be impossible we'd get ubiquitious in everyday life in the next decade
07:09:16 <b_jonas> it's big business so a lot of people are working on it
07:10:21 <b_jonas> could be improved nuclear power generation too
07:10:54 <b_jonas> and I mean improved compared to molten salt generators, not improved compared to the forty year old ones that we still use
07:11:49 <b_jonas> I guess even more plastics with nice properties are pretty likely
07:13:09 <b_jonas> something to replace rubber with something that doesn't start drying and cracking after a few years would be nice
07:13:52 <kmc> it's not surprising that switch mode supplies can beat for efficiency a traditional supply of transformer + linear regulator, because a linear regulator works by requiring the unregulated input voltage to always be a bit higher than the desired regulated output, and burning off the excess as heat
07:13:55 <b_jonas> or better packing padding material than styrofoam
07:14:18 <kmc> lots of people are working on making packaging material out of mycelium
07:14:24 <kmc> i think ikea started shipping some of their products that way
07:14:30 <b_jonas> kmc: but the regulators weren't linear, they already had diodes or transistors when I was young
07:14:46 <kmc> a linear regulator uses transistors
07:14:57 <b_jonas> kmc: and also of cardboard, which seems to work well in many packaging
07:15:14 <b_jonas> kmc: why is it called linear then?
07:15:18 <b_jonas> in what sense is it linear?
07:15:42 <kmc> it acts like a linear amplifier
07:16:10 <kmc> it uses the transistor in its linear regime, where changes in the output voltage are proportional to changes in the input voltage
07:16:44 <b_jonas> does it? I thought you can't do that to make direct current
07:16:57 <b_jonas> it has to use nonlinearity to make direct current from alternating current
07:17:05 <b_jonas> and make it nice and smooth
07:17:13 <kmc> you're mixing up several things here
07:17:30 <kmc> you can turn AC into DC with just diodes
07:17:38 <kmc> yes, those are nonlinear elements
07:17:55 <kmc> but they don't give you a regulated voltage either
07:18:10 <b_jonas> yes, so there are additional elements, including capacitors
07:19:09 <kmc> but that's still only giving you some chosen fraction of the input voltage
07:19:19 <kmc> not some arbitrary fixed voltage that is independent of the input
07:19:27 <kmc> that's what a voltage regulator does
07:19:57 <kmc> e.g. the 7805 regulator always outputs 5 volts no matter the input (within some range of course)
07:20:03 <kmc> and it's a linear, not switch mode device
07:20:30 <kmc> it wastes power equivalent to (input voltage - output voltage) * current
07:21:57 <b_jonas> ok, but what makes old power supplies waste power when no power is drawn off them then?
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07:24:22 <kmc> well an even crappier and simpler linear regulator (shunt regulator) will do that
07:25:32 <kmc> otherwise i don't know
07:25:48 <kmc> but i should go to bed now
07:25:50 <kmc> good night
07:27:08 <b_jonas> mind you, wasting much less power isn't the only way the new power supplies are impossible
07:27:24 <b_jonas> I could expect the logic part of computers get smaller, and the memories
07:27:34 <b_jonas> but the power supply is one that I'd have predicted needs size
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07:28:20 <kmc> that relates to the frequency used for switching
07:28:54 <kmc> inductors / transformers that transmit useful amounts of power at 50/60 Hz are much larger than ones that transmit the same amount of power at dozens to hundreds of kHz
07:29:31 <b_jonas> oh yeah, in impossible things I hope they'll invent, better superconductors would be nice too
07:29:32 <kmc> with simple components you have to reduce the frequency before rectifying it
07:29:44 <kmc> er, reduce the voltage
07:30:04 <kmc> in a switching power supply you can rectify the mains voltage and then switch that to regulate it down to the desired voltage
07:30:14 <kmc> in a sense going AC -> DC -> AC -> DC
07:30:28 <kmc> it is kind of funny that this ends up being more efficient
07:30:45 <kmc> ok, going to sleep for real now :)
07:34:03 <b_jonas> oh yeah, some people predict that the new RNA vaccine technology developed for this pandemic will allow to make good vaccines for much more viral infections for which we don't have a vaccine yet
07:34:13 <b_jonas> so if that indeed works out, that might be another one
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11:30:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A esolang user * New user account
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13:00:16 <fizzie> Hah! One of my former coauthors is cited in one of the SIGBOVIK papers.
13:00:58 <fizzie> (Specifically, citation [4] of Universal Insights with Multi-layered Embeddings.)
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13:49:11 <nakilon> fizzie what are you coauthor of?
14:14:16 <int-e> Hmm, Recursed is still hard.
14:17:19 <int-e> (Yes I know it's been shown to be Turing-hard)
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14:32:40 <fizzie> I've been involved in 5 or so more or less (leaning towards "more") uninteresting papers together with Jort Gemmeke (and others) around "conventional" (read: pre-DNN-revolution) noise-robust speech recognition.
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15:49:04 <esowiki> [[Pyramid Scheme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81751&oldid=76346 * B jonas * (+194) /* External resources */
16:02:53 <myname> pyramid scheme is a funny idea
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17:10:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81752&oldid=81719 * A esolang user * (+274)
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19:02:48 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81753&oldid=81746 * Digital Hunter * (+321) /* Example programs */ added a kolakoski sequence program
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20:43:01 <arseniiv> @tell nakilon I was away and didn’t notice what you messaged me sorry
20:44:26 <nakilon> doesn't freenode have memoserv?
20:47:21 <arseniiv> a bit unconventional it doesn’t use private messages
20:48:19 <arseniiv> so in result it spams the window of the currently active channel, hm
20:48:19 <nakilon> i suppose PRIVMSG is for human-to-human
20:48:46 <nakilon> depends on your client, I guess some have a preference to show NOTICEs only in a server tab
20:49:07 <arseniiv> hm maybe I misconfigured something
20:49:09 <nakilon> I actually like when things don't make you switch tabs
20:49:31 <nakilon> the stupid Lounge that I use opens the /whois results in a query window
20:53:13 <fizzie> I feel like nobody ever actually uses MemoServ.
20:53:19 <fizzie> (On freenode, anyway.)
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20:59:39 <kmc> i've never used it
20:59:43 <kmc> someone should send me a memo!
21:01:13 <arseniiv> finally I set up coloring for this thing
21:01:49 <arseniiv> at least if it won’t flash and notify it will be discernible when scrolling the chat
21:01:55 <kmc> ty arseniiv
21:02:52 <fizzie> @tell lambdabot You're being usurped.
21:03:54 <arseniiv> hm will lambdabot read a MemoServ’s message?..
21:04:57 <arseniiv> at least it’s robust against unknown message types
21:05:39 <arseniiv> @run 2 + 81 -- eval is not the thing
21:06:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: I have used memoserv
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23:30:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81754&oldid=81753 * Digital Hunter * (-66) /* Commands and keywords */ reverted my "important clarification to "succeed""
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01:16:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81755&oldid=81754 * Digital Hunter * (+241) /* Example programs */ added a thue-morse sequence program
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01:20:10 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81756&oldid=81755 * Digital Hunter * (+9) /* Commands and keywords */ better important clarification to "succeed"
01:31:32 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81757&oldid=81712 * Not applicable * (+2237) add Z-Machine clone
02:44:20 <zzo38> What are some things that occur at regular or nearly regular intervals, are unpredictable, and once they have occurred can easily be verified by anyone in the world and will be recorded for verification in the future too? I had idea involving such things using as a random number seed.
03:42:44 <arcsor5> good question zzo38. Reddit posts?
03:53:59 <kmc> blockchain blocks
03:55:42 <kmc> there are some bitcoin lotteries which work this way, you can place bets regarding bits of the hash of the next block accepted after some specified time
03:56:23 <kmc> this way you can verify that the lottery administrators are not rigging the RNG
03:56:43 <kmc> and since bets are made publicly, by sending bitcoins to their address, you can also verify that everyone in the past who bet and won has been paid
03:57:32 <kmc> of course at any time they could still decide to cheat everyone and pocket the money for the next round but it would be clear to everyone that they had done so, and people would stop playing their lottery
03:59:07 <kmc> I think with ethereum or other smart contract coins you could do one better, make a lottery that is collectively administered by the consensus of the network, so as long as a majority of nodes interpret contracts faithfully then the people who placed winning bets will get paid, there is no central entity that can decide to stiff them
03:59:38 <kmc> i think smart contracts have somewhat limited utility compared to the hype but there are some tidy and self contained things you can do with them
04:01:50 <b_jonas> kmc: I do want random numbers that are verifiable to not have been rigged by a third party, even later. They can be useful for experiments, like when I want to prove a statistical statement that has a too large domain, so I can't measure every possibility, I have to take a sample, but I want to prove that I haven't picked my sample in a biased way to support my statement. I don't see why they'd be
04:01:56 <b_jonas> useful for *lotteries* though. Do the kind of people who rigorously verify that the company really gets the numbers from blockchain actually buy lottery tickets?
04:02:48 <kmc> there are definitely people who are interested in online gambling who are tech savvy enough to verify such things
04:02:56 <kmc> perhaps not lotteries but more interesting games?
04:03:22 <kmc> in the old days of numbers rackets run by the mafia they would use the last digits of the closing price of the Dow Jones Industrial Average or whatever as the RNG
04:03:30 <kmc> because anyone can verify that by picking up a newspaper
04:03:49 <kmc> the mob bets on the low bits of the dow and wall street bets on the high bits ;P
04:05:09 <kmc> b_jonas: the idea of picking random numbers in a way that proves you have nothing up your sleeve is also used in non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs
04:05:50 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, zero-knowledge or at least reduced knowledge is possible too
04:05:50 <kmc> a traditional ZKP is an interactive protocol where you pose challenge questions and receive answers
04:06:18 <kmc> if the other party is able to answer enough questions properly then you can be reasonably confident they have whatever knowledge they don't want to reveal directly
04:06:43 <kmc> in a non interactive form they pose the questions to themselves, but have to prove that they picked them randomly
04:07:15 <kmc> by the way another interesting and self contained use case for smart contracts is posting bounties for forged cryptographic certificates
04:07:16 <b_jonas> but the non-interactive thing still applies if the proof isn't zero-knowledge
04:08:09 <kmc> if I own some domain I can write a smart contract which pays out to anyone who can present a TLS certificate for that domain, that is signed by <insert list of CAs>, and is not one of the legitimate certs mentioned in the contract
04:08:30 <kmc> all that can be encoded in a smart contract without reference to any external judge or data source
04:08:51 <kmc> so the person who is perhaps expending resources or taking risks to claim the bounty knows that they will be paid on completion
04:33:45 <zzo38> Can you verify bitcoin hashes if you do not have bitcoin? How often is Dow Jones average updated? Is it only on business days, or every day? Are there other things? Does bitcoin have timestamps?
04:34:24 <zzo38> Also, I would think that bitcoin presumably would require too many blocks to verify it properly?
04:35:33 <arcsor5> Usually reddit posts can be verified easily by just going on the site using their api
04:35:48 <b_jonas> I thought the problem with bitcoin was that you can influence it. not deterministically, but bias it by a small amount, in case you manage to mine the block that is referenced.
04:36:20 <b_jonas> mind you, that's still a small enough bias that you can account for it in calculating bounds and do most things that require a random sample and a statistical proof
04:40:58 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about how it works, but yes I suppose that makes sense. Although, even if it is Reddit you can post your own messages too if you have an account.
04:41:32 <oren> apparently irssi and w3m use the boehm garbage collector
04:42:26 <arcsor5> Reddit has a message stream so you simply take random messages and put them in your generator. To verify use the link. No account needed i think. You can use the byte representation of the values
04:45:15 <zzo38> Ideally something that does not require an internet connection would also help, I suppose.
04:46:21 <arcsor5> Then i guess some sensor/adapter that captures a real world value would be acquired. That's what random.org has
04:48:10 <zzo38> Sirlin's Codex card game is designed that you do not need to do anything on your opponent's turn; you do stuff only on your own turn. With the system that I have thought of, the game rules need no modification, although some of the card effects will not work.
04:48:57 <oren> Another source of random numbers that occurs regularly is weather
04:49:01 <zzo38> Specifically, the ones that allow you to draw cards during your own turn won't work, and the ones that allow you to look at opponent's cards will not work; you can only draw cards during opponent's turn.
04:49:14 <zzo38> Yes, but the weather is predictable.
04:50:20 <oren> . o O (would we get better weather reports if predicting the *exact* temperature and rainfall was linked to a substantial monetrary prize?)
04:51:11 <zzo38> Maybe then would they use the money to build better equipment for predicting the weather (if such a thing is possible)?
04:52:39 <zzo38> Yes, and if you want to generate random numbers locally, for your own use, that works.
04:52:41 <kmc> urandom or random.org does not solve the problem of distributed consensus about the randomly generated value
04:53:16 <kmc> you have to trust that whoever is publishing the result really chose it randomly
04:53:21 <zzo38> But, yes, distributed consensus about the randomly generated value is what I am asking about, and urandom isn't that.
04:53:28 <zzo38> Still, what is the interval of Dow Jones?
04:53:41 <kmc> well the closing price is published once a day, on days when the market is open
04:54:07 <kmc> (which is most weekdays, although the holiday schedule is not exactly the same as US Federal holidays or whatever)
04:54:29 <kmc> https://www.nyse.com/markets/hours-calendars
04:54:42 <kmc> defining prices intraday is a little trickier
04:55:03 <kmc> because there are in reality many different venues in which you can trade the same set of stocks
04:55:14 <kmc> and the price of the last executed trade may be different on each
04:55:39 <kmc> there is some attempt to regulate the existence of a 'national market system' with a coherent idea of last trade price, but it's complicated
04:55:55 <kmc> and of course, stock prices are not random, and can be predicted and manipulated to some degree
04:58:23 <kmc> and it's not really distributed consensus, it's centralized consensus published by a centralized organization (NYSE) that is deemed to have little to no interest in manipulating the mafia's illegal lotteries
04:58:23 <zzo38> Yes, they probably can be predicted and manipulated to some degree, although I don't know what degree. (Although, there is lso some degree for the other things mentioned, too.)
04:58:33 <kmc> because they have a much bigger and legal lottery to run ;)
04:58:59 <zzo38> Are there stars or other stuff in space that is suitable at all?
04:59:01 <kmc> an issue with using the weather is that you have to trust whoever publishes the data
04:59:28 <kmc> while it's hard to actually manipulate the weather, it's easy to manipulate the records of the weather
04:59:39 <zzo38> The positions of planets and stuff can easily be predicted, but I don't know if there is stuff that isn't
04:59:45 <kmc> and you can't prove after the fact that it was really 30° instead of 29° at some location at some time
04:59:55 <kmc> that's an interesting idea zzo38
05:00:18 <zzo38> Yes, although if it is local weather, you can at least check at the time that it is wrong. That won't help for weather in other places though
05:00:36 <kmc> that depends on the precision used
05:00:51 <kmc> I won't expect the temperature just outside my house to always be exactly the same to the degree as the weather station some miles away
05:01:11 <zzo38> O, yes, I suppose you are right about that
05:01:34 <kmc> there is lots of radiation coming from space that is random in arrival time, but also very localized, so it's not suitable
05:01:46 <kmc> you can use the arrival times of cosmic radiation as a good local RNG but you can't build distributed consensus from that
05:02:59 <kmc> everyone will get different random numbers (which is of course desirable for a local RNG)
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10:30:57 <b_jonas> fungot, how old were your children when you let them use an angle grinder?
10:30:57 <fungot> b_jonas: called a guy who's at the job with me, so why memorize it now?) ircnomic
10:34:38 <HackEso> The password of the month is grammaphobic.
10:34:47 <b_jonas> that's last month's password. what's this month's?
10:41:39 <HackEso> sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privileges?
10:42:10 <HackEso> Sat Apr 3 10:42:10 UTC 2021
10:42:11 <HackEso> 2021-04-03 10:42:10.992 +0000 UTC April 3 Saturday 2021-W13-6
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11:11:02 <int-e> `` grep /usr /proc/mounts
11:11:03 <HackEso> none /usr hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/ 0 0
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12:25:00 <nakilon> is there a language that demands you to write not [1,2,3] but [1,2,3,] ?
12:26:08 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but many of the old ones have since been fixed up to accept the latter too
12:27:25 <b_jonas> one related interesting thing is that [7,,9] has a different meaning in perl and in javascript: in perl it's the same as [7,9]; but in javascript there's a missing slot between the 7 and the 9 in the aray
12:30:36 <nakilon> I would allow only the latter
12:31:11 <nakilon> I suppose we put comma only in between because historically we were writing word sentences before arrays
12:31:23 <nakilon> and there we write: cat, dog, monkey.
12:31:52 <nakilon> where the "." looks almost like "," and so has two roles at the same time -- pointing that it's the end and pointing that before it there is the last element
12:32:19 <nakilon> while in the arrays syntax the end symbol isn't "." but some bracket
12:33:18 <nakilon> the "1, 2, 3." array syntax would be ok too
12:34:53 <nakilon> maybe ok if there is some autoreplace system in the IDE
12:35:33 <nakilon> that when I select the last element and the dot and press the "dup" shortcut it dups it replacing the "." with "," in the left copy
12:36:27 <nakilon> so imagine in code I have a literal like this
12:36:43 <nakilon> I select the third line, press dup shortcut and get
13:06:42 <fizzie> There's at least one language (Go) that demands you write "{\n1,\n2,\n3,\n}" instead of "{\n1,\n2,\n3\n}" -- as in, it requires the comma at an end of each item if it's a comma-separated list (composite literal, function call) that's been split to multiple lines; https://play.golang.org/p/9dx0hNz5I36 is a syntax error.
13:10:22 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81758&oldid=81718 * EnilKoder * (+17)
13:26:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81759&oldid=71495 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+783) Add another "better" Generator
13:28:22 <esowiki> [[SPAM/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81760&oldid=38799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Syntax */ Make all spaces show
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17:05:55 <nakilon> what's the simpliest regex to cut possible space substrings on both sides of the string?
17:07:07 <NotApplicable> I know in most BASIC dialects LTRIM$ and RTRIM$ do just that, maybe there's an equivalent to that for whatever language you
17:07:07 <nakilon> oh, => "s s s" -- fix for my 1st example
17:08:43 <myname> should be .*, but that would be slow as hell possibly
17:08:53 <myname> i wouldn't use regex for that, tbh
17:09:19 <myname> or if i want to, i'd replace ^\s* and \s*$ with the empty string
17:09:48 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81771&oldid=81770 * Leothetechguy * (+29)
17:10:03 <nakilon> hm, two regexes will be ok for me I guess
17:10:05 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81772&oldid=81771 * Leothetechguy * (-29)
17:10:27 <myname> why would you want to do that with regexes anyways?
17:10:56 <nakilon> are you afraid of regexes?
17:11:10 <myname> but i don't think they are the right tool for that
17:11:59 <nakilon> do you prefer 10 pages of nested loops instead of this? https://i.imgur.com/DilytEt.png
17:12:45 <myname> no, but that's not at all comparable
17:13:19 <myname> regexes are nice as long as you can clearly define what to match at each point
17:13:34 <myname> as soon as a naked . comes into play, it can go downhill quite quickly
17:14:30 <nakilon> I guess this works /\A *(.*?) *\z/
17:15:56 <myname> https://blog.codinghorror.com/regex-performance/
17:17:01 <nakilon> are you fighting windmills?
17:17:27 <nakilon> or ever wrote a programs that has more than 100 string matching procedures?
17:17:33 <myname> i'm just saying, that your other regexes are guaranteed to behave nicely, since none of them contains a .
17:18:17 <myname> but as soon as you have a .* in it, parsing times can go wild
17:18:39 <myname> how is that imaginary?
17:18:55 <nakilon> because there are no windmills in my 20 megabytes of text
17:18:55 <myname> it's a real problem, go try it out for yourself
17:20:05 <myname> and there is really no reason to prefer the single regex for trimming both ends over one for each left and right trimming
17:20:44 <nakilon> there is a clear reason to prefer one over two since one will work
17:21:08 <myname> two will also work, so that's a pretty bad reason
17:21:38 <nakilon> okay, you aren't afraid of regex, you are afraid of logic
17:21:46 <myname> as is "my code can be shitty since my input is nice", since people train themself this way and sometimes projects tend to gain way more traction than initially thought
17:22:05 <nakilon> how is /\A *(.*?) *\z/ shitty?
17:22:14 <nakilon> you are again fihgting with some imaginary windmills
17:22:20 <myname> if both work, how is "the one i chose works" a reason to prefer it?
17:22:53 <nakilon> come back when you are sober
17:23:07 <myname> it might be a tad faster in ruby since it cannot easily compile those into DFAs beforehand
17:23:51 <nakilon> with their own imaginary shitty code they imaginge in your code
17:23:53 <myname> that has nothing to do with windmill fighting, it's a point of style and efficiency
17:23:54 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81773&oldid=81772 * Leothetechguy * (+82)
17:24:08 <nakilon> and imaginary coworkers on imaginary projects
17:24:32 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81774&oldid=81773 * Leothetechguy * (+8)
17:24:34 <nakilon> just to waste someone's time on pointless debates
17:24:56 <myname> says the guy that needs to ask for like the most basic pcre
17:25:00 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81775&oldid=81774 * Leothetechguy * (-8)
17:25:14 <myname> i am getting things done fairly well, thank you
17:26:00 <nakilon> these "aaahhh! I saw a blogpost in some hype blog! now I can't sleep, I see bad dreams about slow regexes and will annoy other people with it too"
17:26:40 <myname> i read many more than that, it was just like the first google result to give you as an entry
17:26:50 <myname> also, why not just use .strip()?
17:27:00 <nakilon> could just say "I suck in regexes" if he does not know the answer to my question
17:27:19 <myname> you do realize i provided you with your answer, do you?
17:27:40 <nakilon> not thinking about multiple words in a string
17:27:41 <myname> .strip() is most likely more efficient and way more readable
17:27:47 <nakilon> not thinking about multiline string
17:27:59 <myname> i corrected that like seconds later
17:28:20 <nakilon> if your experience in a subject is this low why do you debate?... rhetorical question
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17:28:43 <myname> my experience is far from being low, thank you
17:29:13 <myname> if your experience in ruby is so low that you aren't even aware of strip, why do you use ruby? rhetorical question
17:29:48 <int-e> sigh, so much anger over what could be a healthy intellectual debate weighing the pros and cons of regexes and other approaches to stripping whitespace.
17:30:48 <myname> regex is almost always the worst option to trimming. at best, it just compiles down to a dfa that does the exact same thing that strip() will probably do, that is just loop over the string char by char and kick out spaces
17:31:40 <nakilon> I've got annoyed because there were no practical arguments, only some imaginary windmills with imaginary data, imaginary regexes, imaginary projects and coworkers, nothing close to the real project I'm working on
17:32:29 <myname> how is that more than "this doesn't apply to me"? which is a garbage argument to make if the better solution is shorter and more readable
17:33:00 <NotApplicable> on an unrelated note, does anybody know if GitHub Pages support "including" HTML files into other HTML files?
17:34:07 <nakilon> if we don't know you may ask in ##github
17:34:10 <myname> i mean, you could do iframes?
17:34:57 <NotApplicable> No like i could have a header HTML file for the top part of the site, and another one for the bottom.
17:35:26 <myname> what's wrong with iframes for that?
17:38:24 <myname> i doubt that github will do server side processing for github pages
17:39:41 <nakilon> there was also some another html tag but it's probably not recommended nowadays
17:40:28 <myname> yes, there are 3-ish tags for that and you _could_ use js to modify the dom, but that's most likely not worth it
17:41:17 <nakilon> here are some <object> and <embed> https://stackoverflow.com/q/8702704/322020
17:41:32 <nakilon> but there was something different... you could split the page vertically or horizonatlly
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17:44:58 <myname> no, don't use framesets
17:45:27 <myname> framesets are deprecated for like 10 years now
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17:49:03 <zzo38> I think that it is best to use neither iframes nor framesets due to the disadvantages of them, and using server-side includes instead. Any type of frames have disadvantages of losing the URL if links to a different page, and if changing the outer one instead, will fail if frames are resized or if the user specifically wants only the frame. It can also fail with some methods of downloading a document to make a local copy
17:51:52 <int-e> I guess the closest NotApplicable will come to their dream is to rely on github's support of Jekyll and https://jekyllrb.com/docs/includes/
17:51:54 <myname> with modern web, you can mitigate quite a lot of those issues
17:53:03 <int-e> But NotApplicable left.
17:53:27 <int-e> Nah, we have logs for that.
17:53:44 <nakilon> send him a memo to check the logs
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18:15:04 <NotApplicable> I tried opening an HTML file in konqueror and misspelt the URI and for some reason it started spewing a ton of windows out and i couldnt stop it so i had to reboot
18:17:04 <myname> oh wow, konqueror is still a thing?
18:18:21 <NotApplicable> I dont think development is all that active anymore, but yeah
18:21:03 <NotApplicable> I guess its like a midpoint between firefox and arora; lightweight like arora but also capable like firefox
18:23:36 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81777&oldid=81776 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
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18:33:05 <NotApplicable> It runs the html in a sandbox-y environment, which is what I feared it would do
18:33:34 <NotApplicable> (maybe i could try having a linker thing, and generate the HTML files locally?>
18:39:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81780&oldid=81709 * Leothetechguy * (+15)
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19:23:05 <fizzie> NotApplicable: int-e suggested Jekyll while you were away.
19:23:26 <fizzie> NotApplicable: There's apparently some built-in support for it in GitHub Pages. No idea about the details, but https://docs.github.com/en/pages/setting-up-a-github-pages-site-with-jekyll
19:23:34 <fizzie> (There's an include mechanism in it.)
19:25:00 <nakilon> how many of you have a personal page? and how many of you have a blog? like in percents
19:25:34 <int-e> I have 10% of a personal page? :-P
19:25:38 <nakilon> I mean I would like to know in percents but idk how we would know the number without giving personal answers
19:25:43 <NotApplicable> I didnt really want to use Jekyll because I wanted to have alot of control over my content
19:26:17 <fizzie> I haven't updated mine since late 2014, does that mean the % is exponentially decaying?
19:26:20 <int-e> NotApplicable: at a glance it looked like you can get down to the html level if you want. But I haven't used it.
19:26:23 <nakilon> let's say if you didn't update it for 5 years then assume you don't have it
19:27:05 <nakilon> when I tried to have a blog ~10 years ago I could not come up with a decent style
19:27:06 <int-e> NotApplicable: also if you're looking at static site generators I suppose you can also look at others and use them on your end, instead of relying on github to do that for you somewhere in their cloud
19:28:07 <NotApplicable> int-e: I hacked together a simple linker that does the includes on my end before I publish the stuff, I am going to see if that works
19:28:07 <nakilon> then all the interesting findings with big textual commentaries of mine I had were in G+ but it's gone
19:28:37 <myname> NotApplicable: cat in post-receive hooks orks fine
19:29:03 <nakilon> then I've bought a domain and I keep paying for it while I can't chose the blog platform to use
19:30:03 <nakilon> there was some guy on reddit who made a blog platform specially for coders like a year ago, I even was in Beta, but didn't come up with a content to test it
19:30:34 <nakilon> I guess this https://coding.blog/
19:30:42 <NotApplicable> I just use Scratch and Forkphorus and an embed because Scratch is essentially free hosting
19:31:10 <nakilon> "AI- driven personalised" -- wtf, I don't remember it was like this
19:31:50 <NotApplicable> Only thing is i cant use profanities which isnt that big of a problem
19:32:59 <nakilon> I host on Google Cloud Storage (analogue of AWS S3) but it'll go down when I stop paying for GCP account (because I not only use free services) and also because of the "account inactivity" disabling thing on Google
19:33:46 <nakilon> GCS and S3 is basically free
19:34:13 <nakilon> you pay only 0.(0)1$ for uploading the static page
19:34:50 <nakilon> or not, I guess there is also a Free quota for uploading
19:36:10 <NotApplicable> One of my friends on GH use something called infinity free which claims to be 100% free, no ads, and unlimited storage
19:36:18 <nakilon> 5GB of free storage https://cloud.google.com/storage/pricing#cloud-storage-always-free
19:37:07 <NotApplicable> I mean i font really have alot of stuff on my site so i could try that
19:37:08 <nakilon> I doubt there is anything infinity-free with direct links to pages
19:37:26 <nakilon> there were two unlimited cloud file storages and one is gone already
19:38:21 <nakilon> HTTPS is free for GCS only if you access via their domain, not yours
19:39:21 <nakilon> for example http://www.nakilon.pro/esolang.htm vs https://storage.googleapis.com/www.nakilon.pro/esolang.htm
19:39:48 <nakilon> the JS on the latter is even broken, didn't check why, probably because of HTTP/HTTPS security policies
19:40:27 <nakilon> I could add HTTPS for my domain via Google Cloud but that would need some non-free Balancer service IIRC
19:40:54 <nakilon> or via the domain registration, no big difference I guess
19:44:40 <NotApplicable> I dont really care for the domain, as long as its functional, its fine for me
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19:47:20 <nakilon> checked, the JS is broken because it fetches HTTP: fetch("http://
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19:53:43 <nakilon> both Russian cloud platforms are cheaper than GCP and AWS but still don't have Always Free Tier (
19:54:38 <zzo38> I have a HTTP (as well as Gopher and NNTP) service on my computer, but not a "personal page" or a "blog".
19:54:46 <nakilon> I assume they are cheaper because they have lower number of "9" in SLA but that's not critical at all for Free Tier users
19:56:23 <nakilon> zzo38 was interesting to read about this thing I've discovered recently https://sdf.org/?tour/history/index
19:56:32 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System
19:56:38 <int-e> Hmm, https://cloudatcost.com/ seems to have increased their prices. But I'm sure their service is as awful as ever ;)
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20:07:13 <nakilon> is there an English idiom for https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%85
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20:16:32 <zzo38> Which programming languages other than PostScript use marks on the stack to make lists like PostScript does? (There probably are some, but I don't know what they are)
20:25:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/GML sort of does, but you can't actually manipulate the mark as if it was a normal value
20:26:06 <b_jonas> maybe blsq did? I don't remember
20:29:27 <zzo38> In Ghostscript, some of the new operators (and also the standard pdfmark operator) use a list which has not been made into its own object, for efficiency. However, I can think of another way, which does not require this, instead deferring making the array/dictionary objects; this might only be done for optimized procedures, possibly "executeonly" operator might do such optimizations (after "bind" is also used)
20:42:05 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81781&oldid=81615 * Zzo38 * (+244)
20:45:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81782&oldid=81756 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Thue-Morse sequence */
20:48:05 <zzo38> I have seen a complaint that when pdfmark is used that you write [ without a matching ] and they apparently didn't know why; well, if you don't like that, then you can write the word "mark" instead of "[" it means the same thing.
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23:58:46 <esowiki> [[Deskileq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81783&oldid=81779 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Examples */ Cats
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01:27:15 <oren> I need a nontrivial unicode string
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02:38:12 <arcsor5> speaking of esolangs, im making my own programming language
02:38:16 <arcsor5> its a domain specific langauge
02:56:52 <zzo38> OK. What programming language is it, and what is it for?
03:15:03 <zzo38> (I also have designed some domain specific programming languages; that is what Free Hero Mesh is.)
03:15:19 <zzo38> (I also had some ideas about other domain specific programming languages, such as solitaire cards, and Magic: the Gathering cards, too.)
03:17:23 <arcsor5> Its for a video related program, i dont have a name for it yet
03:17:55 <arcsor5> speaking of free hero, how is that going
03:18:32 <zzo38> It is probably in a state ready to be used normally now, although more testing would help, and there are also some more features which may be added later
03:21:19 <zzo38> If you want to test it, or try to make up your own puzzle, feature suggestions, bug reports, question (that I can add into the FAQ section), etc, then you can do so.
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08:07:52 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81784&oldid=74559 * Hakerh400 * (+1635) Add TIO links
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08:19:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Leothetechguy * moved [[Deskileq]] to [[Deskin]]: Old name sounded bad and didn't correspond with the examples
08:20:05 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81787&oldid=81785 * Leothetechguy * (-2)
08:23:22 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81788&oldid=81787 * Leothetechguy * (-46)
08:24:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81789&oldid=81780 * Leothetechguy * (-2) /* D */
08:24:18 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81790&oldid=81788 * Leothetechguy * (-1)
08:59:34 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81791&oldid=81790 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
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10:13:01 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81792&oldid=81791 * Leothetechguy * (-1)
10:13:37 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81793&oldid=81792 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
10:21:48 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81794&oldid=81793 * Leothetechguy * (+128)
10:23:12 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81795&oldid=81794 * Leothetechguy * (+60)
11:36:29 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81796&oldid=81795 * Leothetechguy * (+26)
11:38:30 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81797&oldid=81796 * Leothetechguy * (-5)
11:40:53 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81798&oldid=81797 * Leothetechguy * (-62)
11:41:22 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81799&oldid=81798 * Leothetechguy * (-7)
11:41:32 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81800&oldid=81799 * Leothetechguy * (-11)
11:53:22 <b_jonas> arcsor5: is it a low-level image processing language? or a video cutting language?
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12:06:15 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81801&oldid=81800 * Leothetechguy * (+54)
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12:30:04 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81802&oldid=81801 * Leothetechguy * (-45)
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13:04:46 <fizzie> `` unidecode $(\? haiku)
13:04:48 <HackEso> [U+1F028 MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
13:23:18 <esowiki> [[Forest]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81803 * Hakerh400 * (+8195) +[[Forest]]
13:23:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81804&oldid=81789 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Forest]]
13:23:23 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81805&oldid=81269 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Forest]]
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13:52:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SCKelemen * New user account
13:58:19 <arseniiv_> buying plane tickets is too risky an undertaking. You can reload a page and buy for tomorrow instead of the intended date. Meh
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14:05:09 <myname> as somebody working in aviation industry, i fully agree
14:23:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81806&oldid=81761 * SCKelemen * (+572) Add myself
14:23:20 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81807 * SCKelemen * (+1681) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Nomad |paradigms=functional, probabilistic |author=[[Async Engineering]] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |typesys=static |memsys=stack-based |refimpl=[h..."
14:29:29 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81808&oldid=81807 * SCKelemen * (+101)
14:39:06 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81809&oldid=81808 * SCKelemen * (+342)
14:40:08 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81810&oldid=81809 * SCKelemen * (+2)
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15:08:39 <esowiki> [[Dotsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81811&oldid=72540 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Stub && Language
15:16:57 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81812&oldid=81802 * Leothetechguy * (+79)
15:18:43 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81813&oldid=81812 * Leothetechguy * (-64)
15:23:08 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81814&oldid=81813 * Leothetechguy * (-6)
15:26:35 <b_jonas> arseniiv: and they never tell you timezones or UTC times, only localtimes
15:29:05 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yes, that’s quite inconvenient too, though usually there is a flight time so at least you can calculate something more or less easily
15:33:27 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81815&oldid=79191 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Cat program */ Make the program better
15:37:01 <b_jonas> it will get worse if the European politicians force timezone changes on us
15:37:20 <b_jonas> because currently I at least more or less understand European timezones
15:37:51 <b_jonas> but if the politicians insist on causing chaos, I'll be afraid
15:42:30 <esowiki> [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81816&oldid=79418 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Truth-machine */ now
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15:59:10 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81817&oldid=78509 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Program structure */ Fxi a typo
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16:01:34 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81818&oldid=78510 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) April already?
16:02:24 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81819&oldid=81817 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Commands */ The date is updated now.
16:07:34 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81820&oldid=81819 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Datatypes */ Fix code tag.
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16:35:41 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81821&oldid=81814 * Leothetechguy * (+170)
16:36:28 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81822&oldid=81821 * Leothetechguy * (-4)
16:38:51 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81823&oldid=81822 * Leothetechguy * (+2)
16:39:35 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81824&oldid=81823 * Leothetechguy * (-1)
16:42:11 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81825&oldid=81824 * Leothetechguy * (+112)
16:42:34 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81826&oldid=81825 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
16:45:28 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81827&oldid=81826 * Leothetechguy * (+32)
16:46:17 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81828&oldid=81827 * Leothetechguy * (-32)
17:08:40 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81829&oldid=81828 * Leothetechguy * (-12)
17:09:55 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81830&oldid=81829 * Leothetechguy * (+6)
17:10:49 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81831&oldid=81830 * Leothetechguy * (+3)
17:12:12 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81832&oldid=81831 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
17:21:48 <arseniiv> b_jonas: what’s be wrought? I usually don’t read or watch any news whatsoever, partially to shield myself from political opininon machinations as much as possible, but in the result I’m not up to date even with something purely scientific
17:37:54 <nakilon> do you guys have wall clocks?
17:51:37 <kmc> i have an analog one, but the battery died a while ago so it's stuck on 4:57:10
17:54:43 <fizzie> I think what's up EU-wise is some talks about potential changes to daylight savings, like stopping doing it, or keeping it permanently on.
17:55:32 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_time_in_Europe#Future ends with "as of October 2020", I don't know if anything's happened since then.
18:02:17 <int-e> wtf, the thing has been lingering in the council of ministers since march 2019?
18:02:44 <int-e> I thought it was closer to the covid mess... so what's the excuse :-/
18:03:46 <kmc> mm bureaucracy
18:03:53 <fizzie> It's going to be kind of funny if NI ends up in a different time zone half the year than rest of Ireland.
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18:24:17 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81833&oldid=81832 * Leothetechguy * (+40)
18:27:50 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81834&oldid=81833 * Leothetechguy * (-2)
18:28:19 <zzo38> I don't have a clock on the wall, but I do have clocks with batteries, so that I can know what time it is if the power is off
18:28:24 <nakilon> "so it's stuck on 4:57:10" -- that's a weird time to stuck on
18:29:19 <zzo38> (When the power is off, the timer on the stove and microwave doesn't work, so I used the alarm hand on the clock to mark the beginning of some interval, and kept track of how many minutes have passed by using that.)
18:29:37 <nakilon> to save the light waste globally people should fight the stupid increasing of size and power of videocards
18:29:43 <zzo38> (Of course, that isn't what the alarm hand is for, but it will work.)
18:30:30 <nakilon> gamers don't realise they are already paying a ton for that stupid piece of metal just to be able to play some very badly made game
18:31:34 <zzo38> I prefer the older games without that many advanced graphics; the more advanced graphics are sometimes making it difficult to see what it is anyways, compared with simpler 2D graphics
18:31:46 <nakilon> that graphics is rarely really advanced
18:31:59 <nakilon> the RTX realtime illumination is such a fake
18:32:35 <zzo38> Yes, although many modern computer programs are too inefficient anyways, whether it is the graphics or something else
18:32:54 <nakilon> it all renders wrongly, all the lights and shadows are pointing in wrong directions, and updates with very very low resolution only a few times per second so the whole point of "realtime" is just a lie
18:33:16 <zzo38> Then it is really badly designed, I suppose
18:37:32 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81835&oldid=81834 * Leothetechguy * (-41)
18:40:10 <arseniiv> <nakilon> do you guys have wall clocks? => just a single one. I set it up when the battery dies but don’t use it as it’s too high and I don’t like analog clocks anyway. Though I glance at room temperature and humidity that same clock displays
18:40:50 <nakilon> temperature indicator is a cool thing
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18:44:01 <arseniiv> though I don’t think temp that high in the air is useful to know. Higher than my head level
18:45:45 <zzo38> I have temperature on the desk. But, why is there a gap in the red part of the temperature?
18:45:59 <zzo38> (I also have temperature in the computer.)
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18:53:34 <zzo38> Therei s a gap. It is red, up to the number of the temperature, but there is a gap in it, rather than being solid red.
18:58:21 <arseniiv> my clock shows an arrow for the temp but zzo38’s is probably an old liquid column one, how’s it called
18:58:34 <arseniiv> I saw a hole in the column of several thermometers too
18:58:51 <arseniiv> you almost never are able to fix that :(
18:59:19 <nakilon> liquid is usually a red colored alcohol but I'm still not sure what you mean, nvm though
19:00:01 <arseniiv> may be even in mercury thermometers, though mercury is supposed to be at a very low pressure there, so no reason to not stick together
19:00:39 <arseniiv> nakilon: there is presumably a bubble in it which doesn’t, well, bubble up and away for some reason. At least in my cases that was so
19:01:05 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81836&oldid=81835 * Leothetechguy * (+51)
19:01:17 <arseniiv> (the reason is more or less clear, surface tension, but that doesn’t make things better)
19:03:11 <nakilon> like this? https://cooking.stackexchange.com/q/73870/85558
19:05:30 <zzo38> Yes, it is like that but the gap isn't that wide; it is a narrow gap
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19:39:46 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81837&oldid=81836 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
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20:01:14 <esowiki> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81838&oldid=81696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Cat */ Cat[egory]
20:11:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81839&oldid=81804 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* N */ [[Nomad]]
20:12:17 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81840&oldid=81782 * Digital Hunter * (+412) /* Example programs */ added a look-and-say sequence program
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20:40:40 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81841&oldid=81837 * Leothetechguy * (-51)
20:41:11 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81842&oldid=81841 * Leothetechguy * (+9)
20:43:04 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81843&oldid=81842 * Leothetechguy * (-9)
20:45:24 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81844&oldid=81843 * Leothetechguy * (+80)
20:48:11 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81845&oldid=81844 * Leothetechguy * (-1)
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21:06:42 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81846&oldid=81845 * Leothetechguy * (+9)
21:13:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81847&oldid=81806 * A esolang user * (+1) I restore my terrible mistake of having put my introduction before that of [[User:ColorfulGalaxy|ColorfulGalaxy]]. Im sorry.
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21:16:19 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81848 * Icecream17 * (+227) Create template "AlgorithmStep"
21:25:34 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81849&oldid=81848 * Icecream17 * (-32) Use built-in numbered list
21:28:44 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81850&oldid=81849 * Icecream17 * (+28) Use another template
21:44:03 <zzo38> Recently I misspelled a URL in a message on Usenet, and I did not notice until after I posted the message, so to fix it I added a symlink.
21:45:25 <zzo38> (I don't know who else has done a similar thing.)
21:47:09 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Variable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81851 * Icecream17 * (+317) Create template "Variable"
21:48:50 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81852&oldid=81850 * Icecream17 * (+1) Oops forgot
21:49:37 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81853&oldid=81852 * Icecream17 * (-40) Move ismethod to variable
21:50:59 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81854 * Icecream17 * (+29) Created page with "{{User:Icecream17/Algorithm}}"
21:52:44 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81855&oldid=81854 * Icecream17 * (+44)
21:53:34 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Variable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81856&oldid=81851 * Icecream17 * (+86)
21:56:50 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81857&oldid=81853 * Icecream17 * (+1)
22:02:08 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81858&oldid=81857 * Icecream17 * (+39) param argument
22:02:52 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Variable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81859&oldid=81856 * Icecream17 * (+1)
22:04:22 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81860&oldid=81855 * Icecream17 * (+422) Add algorithms
22:27:50 <arcsor6> what was the usenet post. i haven't seen posts from you on there for some time. What newsgroups are you frequenting now?
22:28:35 <zzo38> rec.arts.int-fiction is the newsgroup that I posted it to; the message ID is <1617220312.bystand@zzo38computer.org>
22:29:45 <zzo38> I don't post a lot of messages, but sometimes I do.
22:43:57 <nakilon> what do you mean by "similar thing"? I guess redirecting in wiki is similar
22:45:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alone * New user account
22:46:24 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Redirects_from_misspellings
22:50:00 <nakilon> heh, once here I mentioned I can't remember how to spell 'necessary'
22:50:17 <nakilon> it appeared to be on this list https://www.lexico.com/grammar/common-misspellings
23:02:32 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81861 * Icecream17 * (+49) Created page with "<span style="font-family:Cambria">{{{0|}}}</span>"
23:03:54 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81862&oldid=81861 * Icecream17 * (+0) ?
23:11:38 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81863&oldid=81862 * Icecream17 * (-6)
23:13:29 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81864&oldid=81863 * Icecream17 * (+17)
23:13:31 <zzo38> Yes, that is also a similar thing
23:13:48 <zzo38> (although, it is a bit different thing)
23:18:47 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81865&oldid=81864 * Icecream17 * (+4) ugh tables cant be in paragraphs
23:24:55 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81866&oldid=81865 * Icecream17 * (+1) adjust font size
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23:30:34 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Sans Serif]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81867 * Icecream17 * (+53) Created page with "<span style="font-family:sans-serif;">{{{1|}}}</span>"
23:32:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Icecream17 * moved [[User:Icecream17/Sans Serif]] to [[User:Icecream17/Sans serif]]: Oops wrong capitalization
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00:09:48 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar Explanation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81870 * Icecream17 * (+3999) took too long to make
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00:39:09 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81871&oldid=81858 * Icecream17 * (+26) skipsteps option
00:41:49 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81872&oldid=81871 * Icecream17 * (+64) description
00:42:32 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81873&oldid=81872 * Icecream17 * (-3) formatting
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02:11:18 <zzo38> Will they add a "tail-only" calling convention into LLVM?
02:27:43 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Grammar Explanation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81874&oldid=81870 * Icecream17 * (+1103) more explanation
02:37:52 <zzo38> (There is a tail calling convention, but not a tail only calling convention, it look like)
03:21:37 <esowiki> [[Semeler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81875 * Icecream17 * (+3402) draft
03:25:19 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Variable/doc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81876 * Icecream17 * (+1923) documentation
03:35:26 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/documentation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81877 * Icecream17 * (+546) create documentation template
03:36:23 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Variable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81878&oldid=81859 * Icecream17 * (+329) add documentation
03:40:35 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Variable/doc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81879&oldid=81876 * Icecream17 * (+546) addd nothing
03:44:46 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/documentation/doc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81880 * Icecream17 * (+313) documentation documentation
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08:10:42 <esowiki> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81881&oldid=81466 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+433) Added Project Euler Problem 1 code based on Fizzbuzz
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09:45:14 <b_jonas> "do you guys have wall clocks" => no, I hate those. my relatives have wall clocks, and they show the wrong time all the time. what's even the point of having a clock if you don't set it to the correct time? and many of them emit a loud clicking noise every second, and are analog with two or three dials that makes it hard to read.
09:46:22 <myname> on that topic, i hate people who have clocks set to the wrong time intentionally because they just aren't able to leave the house 5 minutes earlier
09:46:32 <b_jonas> I have a cheap battery-powered digital LCD clock that's usually at my desk next to a digital thermometer, but sometimes I carry it to the kitchen to use as a kitchen timer, plus the digital LED clock built into the oven, plus my mobile phone and the desktop computer as clocks. all these I do set to the correct time.
09:46:41 <b_jonas> no analog clocks and nothing that gives clicky noises.
09:52:50 <b_jonas> myname: my relatives don't do that, but they bought this stupid radio clock that supposedly sets itself to the correct time automatically, but then it went wrong (a dial miscalibrated itself) so now it consistently sets itself to the wrong time (you know what Douglas Adams says about things that can't break) yet they still keep it on the wall. at least that only annoys me when I am at their home,
09:53:21 <b_jonas> unlike when they refused to throw away the electric kettle whose mechanism to stop heating when the water boils went wrong and so never turned off.
09:54:15 <b_jonas> plus they never set the clock in the car, so that shows the wrong time too
09:54:43 <myname> i know people that liked the idea of one clock of the discworld universe so much, they built something similar. it ticks irregularly, but still shows (roughly) the correct time
09:55:17 <b_jonas> myname: I think that's the Dune universe, not the Discworld universe. it's for not attracting sandworms.
09:56:13 <myname> https://roryokane.github.io/vetinari-clock-simulator/
10:01:05 <b_jonas> I guess I should be glad the car is not one of those from a few decades ahead in the US, the ones that are controlled by a computer connected to the internet so anyone can remotely make your car misbehave
10:02:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SCKelemen * uploaded "[[File:Records-hasse.png]]"
10:08:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SCKelemen * uploaded "[[File:Types-hasse.png]]"
10:13:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SCKelemen * uploaded "[[File:Record-union-hasse.png]]"
10:13:46 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81885&oldid=81810 * SCKelemen * (+622)
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12:31:11 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81886&oldid=81885 * SCKelemen * (+60) Add appropriate categories
12:33:07 <nakilon> gave one guy a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8igrh1eyLk
12:33:36 <nakilon> he says "what do the say? I can't English"
12:33:46 <nakilon> I say "don't you remember the movie plot?"
12:34:10 <nakilon> he really thinks it's some Jimm Carrey movie that he hasn't seen
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12:48:23 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81887&oldid=81647 * Heavpoot * (+17) fix minor typo
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13:02:50 <esowiki> [[41943040000000000000000000000]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81888 * Heavpoot * (+190) Created page with "[[41943040000000000000000000000]] will be an [[esolang]] and will be made during 2022 indisputably. 41943040000000000000000000000 is (to be) a [[Macron|very real esolang]]. ..."
13:03:06 <esowiki> [[Category:2022]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81889 * Heavpoot * (+11) Created page with "{{Yearcat}}"
13:05:30 <fizzie> Doubling down on it, I see.
13:07:33 <fizzie> I don't know what (if anything) we should do about that.
13:07:55 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81890&oldid=81229 * Heavpoot * (+11)
13:11:17 <fizzie> (The so-called "fix minor typo" edit is again adding that nonsense 2026 category that was reverted three times.)
13:19:05 <esowiki> [[TwoFiftyFive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81891&oldid=73252 * Heavpoot * (+32)
13:21:59 <nakilon> he's already in Category:Years, lol
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13:33:49 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81892&oldid=81887 * Int-e * (-17) Fix minor typo. Isn't this fun?
13:34:56 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81893&oldid=81892 * Heavpoot * (+17) oops, you accidentally hit "backspace" instead of "ctrl+c ctrl+v ctrl+v (select previous 2 words) ctrl+c ctrl+v ctrl+v". but don't worry, i'll fix it partially for you!
13:37:23 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81894&oldid=81893 * Int-e * (+0) Did you know that 2021 = 43*47? Seriously though, please stop this nonsense.
13:42:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81895&oldid=81605 * Heavpoot * (+282)
13:43:18 <int-e> I'm happy that the problem has been identified so clearly.
13:44:41 <int-e> I guess that explains that name, at least.
13:45:37 <nakilon> that's the only explain thing I see here so far
13:47:34 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81896&oldid=81894 * Heavpoot * (+0) fine. updated to reflect actual date of creation. "2021" is not substantially substantiated by substantial evidence.
13:48:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81897&oldid=81895 * Fizzie * (+475) /* 2026 denial propaganda */ ...
13:51:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81898&oldid=81897 * Heavpoot * (+16)
13:52:18 <esowiki> [[Suptiftam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7075) Create page
13:53:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81900&oldid=81839 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* S */ +[[Suptiftam]]
13:54:17 <nakilon> A Grasp program consists of a set of nodes.
13:54:19 <int-e> (Though I guess I don't mind it joining the 2007 crowd. It's far less obstrusive than making a language appear in its own bogus category.)
13:54:29 <nakilon> lol, I read as "consists of a set of nudes."
13:57:22 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81901&oldid=81235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Languages */ +[[Suptiftam]]
13:59:57 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81902&oldid=81555 * Heavpoot * (+5552) [[User:Truttle1|Truttle1]] ([[User talk:Truttle1|talk]])
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14:07:22 <int-e> Ah, "obtrusive"... I finally realized why that word looked so wrong.
14:08:24 <int-e> I mixed in a bit of "obstructive", maybe I can pretent it was a portmanteau...
14:08:41 <int-e> But given the number of other typos I'm making these days...
14:09:49 <nakilon> I believe is there was a " TwilightSparkle" user it's Heavypot
14:10:26 <nakilon> see Sept 7 2020 message here https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:SunnyMoon
14:11:21 <nakilon> and the " 09:54, 21 July 2020 (UTC)" on the Introduce yourself
14:18:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81903&oldid=81902 * Heavpoot * (-28169) __NOTOC__ __NOEDITSECTION__ <div style="max-width: 60.5em; padding: 1.25em; padding-bottom: 0; float: left"> <h1 style="font-size: 1.75em; margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0.714em; padding: 0; border-bottom: 0; overflow: visible">Welcome to '''Esolang''', the [[esoteric
14:27:57 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81904&oldid=81890 * Heavpoot * (+197)
14:32:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81905&oldid=81706 * RocketRace * (+166)
14:34:55 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81906&oldid=77797 * RocketRace * (-62) Fix the incorrect 0@0 code pattern
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14:42:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81907&oldid=81847 * RocketRace * (-66) remove deadname
14:44:07 <esowiki> [[Suptiftam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81908&oldid=81899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Cat program */ Fix
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15:21:48 <esowiki> [[Excela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81909&oldid=61935 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) /* External resources */ Add link
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16:05:43 <b_jonas> nakilon: we live in the 21st century among cheap consumer goods. it's cheaper to buy a new kettle than to try to fix a security bug in one. but sure, if my father intended to fix it, that would have been fine. but they didn't.
16:12:55 <nakilon> that's the consumerism lvl 80
16:13:32 <nakilon> moving some metal thing that got shifted inside the kettle because of some vibration does not cost more than buy a new one
16:15:03 <nakilon> multibillionairs are just allowing you to temporary posess some extra money to spend them so irrationally to make an illusion that they made the money in a rational and fair way
16:15:03 <b_jonas> nakilon: metal? only the heating element is metal. most of it is plastic.
16:15:17 <b_jonas> oh, you mean the tiny electronics thing?
16:15:24 <b_jonas> yes, that might be metal, but just barely
16:16:00 <b_jonas> and yes, it's consumerism. if you want tea cheaply, go and keep cleaning your municipal gas oven.
16:16:15 <nakilon> there is some stuff in there with different temperature expansion coefficients that when it gets hot the metal contact is making a contact
16:16:55 <b_jonas> that's the way these cheap electric kettles usually die. mine lasted for five years. it's a bit sad, I wish they died the opposite way, with the heat sensor shutting it down instead of keeping it on, but it's the second one that did this so it looks likea trend.
16:17:32 <nakilon> I saw on youtube how some american sold his lawn mower just because it ran out of fuel
16:17:43 <b_jonas> different temperature expansion coefficients? possible, but I think they only do that in gas heaters that must work safely without electricity. I think the electronic ones just use a resistive temperature element and a relay
16:17:57 <nakilon> dude bought it for $20 or something, filled it with a fuel and sold for $100
16:18:26 <b_jonas> oh come on, if you want to find extreme examples of stupidity, you can always look on the internet. that doesn't mean that the typical person is that stupid
16:18:38 <nakilon> because consumerism made that guy so stupid he can't refule his lawn mower and assumes "it's broken, meh, I'll buy a new one"
16:19:10 <b_jonas> but I'm not an electrician, I'm not going to repair an unsafe high voltage appliance and possibly shock myself or make it even more unsafe, when it's a just cheap kettle that served for five years.
16:19:34 <nakilon> I'm not saying every person should fix thing himself
16:20:01 <b_jonas> my father might be qualified, but I don't think even he would want to touch these, because these aren't consumer-repairable, the plastic can't be safely opened and closed.
16:20:07 <nakilon> I would give it my friend electrician and he would fix it for a cup of tea
16:21:16 <b_jonas> I do exactly one sort of self-repair on these: clean the hard water chalk from it, from the main body with citric acid (vinegar works too but I dislike it), and from the filter by mechanical means
16:21:22 <nakilon> my plastic electric teapot has 10 screw on the bottom, just checked
16:21:54 <b_jonas> aren't those screws for replacing the cable to the mains electricity?
16:22:00 <b_jonas> that might be something you can do at home
16:22:19 <b_jonas> or can you fix the temperature shutdown with those too?
16:22:24 <nakilon> I make tea out of Bonaqua water that is the only here available that's isn't hard enough so the chalk^W salt does not appear in it at all
16:23:04 <b_jonas> I did have the broken thermal element fixed in the gas convector heater, because that one costs much more than an electric kettle and would be much more of a hassle to replace, while repairing it isn't too bad
16:23:29 <nakilon> the only thing that can't be disassempled are stupid apple devices, lol
16:23:47 <b_jonas> of course, everything can be disassembled. the hard part is assembling it afterwards.
16:24:21 <b_jonas> and in this case it's a high voltage appliance that you use in the kitchen with water, so you have to be careful, you can cause more damage if you assemble it wrong
16:25:09 <b_jonas> (the gas heater is even worse, that one I'm officially not even allowed to touch unless I'm formally qualified; for the kettle you only have to be practically qualified)
16:25:53 <nakilon> there should be qualifications to touch the code
16:27:35 <nakilon> yep, legal prohibition of your employees to touch specific parts of it
16:28:04 <b_jonas> no, anyone can touch software, the dayjob company just might not accept contributions from anyone, or not give the sourcecode to anyone, but it requires no formal qualification, just normal judgement of who we employ and how much we trust our employees
16:28:39 <nakilon> by touching I mean applying the edits
16:28:45 <b_jonas> formal qualification is required for doctors, lawyers, and gas repairmen. that's about it.
16:29:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, anyone can do that to their own computer. even if they do stupid things like add security bugs. and I will stand up for their rights to do that.
16:29:11 <b_jonas> that doesn't mean I'll run their code.
16:29:32 <b_jonas> or use electric kettles that they have repaired
16:29:39 <nakilon> for example, a HTTL/CSS guy touched PHP server configs and has exposed the access tokens of thousands of users to everyone -- he should pay for this
16:31:33 <nakilon> it's the same if he went to the office kitchen and got into the teapot and made it risky to use since then
16:31:36 <b_jonas> no, we employers are protected about this, the employer usually can't punish us for mere incompetence, and can't make us pay damages for them. they also need not allow us to modify code on their servers of course.
16:33:03 <b_jonas> we also wouldn't allow most employees to repair the electric kettle
16:33:09 <nakilon> an average HTML/CSS is always a friend of CTO and/or CEO and so is allowed to touch any piece of code and launch any programs
16:33:29 <nakilon> yeah yeah they say the same
16:33:30 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, because our CEOs aren't *stupid*
16:33:57 <b_jonas> no, I know the CEOs in person. this is a small company
16:34:05 <nakilon> this is why laws were invented thousands of years ago
16:34:12 <nakilon> because the "we aren't stupid" is a lie
16:35:29 <nakilon> IT is just mature enough for people to realise they should make laws that if you touch the code you don't have to touch you must pay and not blame someone in that he allowed you to do it -- that's a separate fault
16:36:37 <b_jonas> ok, I'll stop because this won't be a productive conversation
16:39:01 <nakilon> I worked in companies of sizes 8, 12, 20, 100, 2000, 5000, 30000 -- adequate CEOs were only in 100 and 5000, adequate CTOs only in 20 and 5000
16:39:50 <nakilon> don't believe in myths, the software industry is crap, it has no regulations and no mandatory qualification checks
16:55:47 <arseniiv> finally a 90s radio with the rest of the music I vaguely remember from the dark days my consciousness was forming. You wouldn’t believe how hard a coupon collector’s problem it is to tie all the ends, though all of them is not a priority — simply just when I hear something I think I heard earlier I’m a little happier and a little more surprised: “still haven’t been found earlier?!” Though there are real mysteries out there
16:55:48 <arseniiv> which are probably from 00s, like some Japanese-sounding thing with weird harmony, but slow (so probably no J-pop? 120bpm but slow in the way melodic phrases were built) and I hadn’t presence of mind to record that excerpt. A car driven away from my window, forever. *That one* is real rosebud, and probably I won’t hear that song again ever
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17:38:55 <zzo38> {?} Instant ;; Target permanent gains protection from everything until end of turn. ;; Cycling {2}
17:39:26 <zzo38> Shadowmonger {3B} Creature - Shade Monger (2/3) ;; {2}: Target creature gains shadow until end of turn. Any player can use this ability.
17:47:35 <zzo38> These are Magic: the Gathering
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17:50:03 <nakilon> oh I thought it's ur esoteric lang
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18:28:20 <nakilon> arseniiv 21:27:22 -NickServ- EMAILMEMOS Forwards incoming memos to your e-mail address.
18:28:36 <nakilon> nickserv can email you memos
18:29:51 <arseniiv> (though I rarely check mail so that would be currently of little use to me)
18:36:03 <nakilon> email isn't supposed to be read insteneously
18:39:53 <zzo38> I have a message indicator in the system status line, so that if I am at the computer, I can see if there is a email message waiting.
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19:32:14 <nakilon> I opened all the service that I "have to check sometimes" as pinned tabs in one window and try to teach myself to browser them only in order from right to left so it's like a priority, like "you better check email than skype"
19:32:26 <nakilon> not sure if it works for me though but I'm trying
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19:47:46 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81910&oldid=78312 * ZippyMagician * (+35) Add OM and ONN to nonstandard list
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20:07:42 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81911&oldid=81318 * Nailuj29 * (+445) 4 new instructions
20:22:47 <esowiki> [[Suptiftam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81912&oldid=81908 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Variable declaration */ Wording
20:33:59 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81913&oldid=81758 * EnilKoder * (+19) added Primer Post Braces to the comment
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22:30:44 <b_jonas> > take 80 ("b" ++ cycle "an")
22:30:46 <lambdabot> "bananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananan...
22:34:38 <zzo38> My idea about playing a card game with separate decks by computer with a trusted third party who does not know anything about the game, but provides data at regular or nearly regular intervals, which is unpredictable before it occurs. It has many requirements about the game being played, which means that many games are not suitable. It otherwise works with hashes and block chain (which need not be known by anyone other than the players)
23:06:47 <fizzie> I faintly remember stock prices being used for a purpose like that for a game. Oh, wait, I'm just thinking about xkcd's geohashing.
23:08:52 <b_jonas> does this channel have a bot more trusted than HackEso who can give us random numbers by the way?
23:09:20 <zzo38> I don't know. Does fungot have such a command?
23:09:39 <b_jonas> jevalbot can give random numbers\
23:10:04 <zzo38> Does lambdabot have such a command?
23:10:04 <b_jonas> and it uses a cryptograhpically non-secure random generator too
23:10:18 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
23:10:24 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
23:10:24 <lambdabot> seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
23:10:30 <lambdabot> @dice <expr>. Throw random dice. <expr> is of the form 3d6+2.
23:10:56 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting digit
23:12:05 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:14:08 <zzo38> I suppose it doesn't have such thing as drop lowest and drop highest and cards etc
23:14:59 <zzo38> Do you know what random number generation is used?
23:36:59 <fizzie> You can get one random bit out of fungot.
23:37:09 <fizzie> Well, one bit at a time, that is.
23:39:55 <fizzie> That's from cfunge's implementation of the Befunge '?' instruction, which I'm not 100% sure where it's from. Looks like it's either from the srandom/random pair of functions, or arc4random where available.
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01:30:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81914&oldid=81903 * Truttle1 * (+383)
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05:00:23 <zzo38> Do you like goto sigil and gosub sigil?
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06:02:46 <esowiki> [[PDA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81915&oldid=81692 * Largejamie * (+4620)
06:05:51 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81916&oldid=81702 * Largejamie * (+302)
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08:27:58 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81917&oldid=81896 * CatIsFluffy * (+34) Let's compromise
08:31:12 <esowiki> [[Caballo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81918&oldid=80335 * CatIsFluffy * (+0) /* Conditional */
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15:20:26 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is hiding in plain sight.
15:20:26 <int-e> (A bit late for Easter, but here we go)
15:20:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is hiding in plain sight.
15:22:02 <fizzie> Oh no, someone else got involved in the 2026 fiasco.
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15:36:36 <int-e> Trajedy is 4 years (and a month and a few days) old.
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16:39:24 <esowiki> [[/ggu/]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81919&oldid=78996 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Commands */ s/rn/nr/g
17:11:51 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81920&oldid=81150 * Mario * (+46)
17:16:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81921&oldid=81900 * Mario * (+15) added self%ify
17:18:46 <esowiki> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81922&oldid=81221 * Mario * (+3)
17:22:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81923&oldid=81921 * Mario * (+50) added third party contractor accused of a robbery
17:25:33 <esowiki> [[Self%ify]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81924&oldid=81139 * Mario * (+86)
17:43:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AarMil42 * New user account
17:51:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81925&oldid=81907 * AarMil42 * (+395) Introduced myself
17:55:19 <zzo38> Do any version control systems have a partial clone function? The format of fossil should support this, although I think the implementation does not, and the existing implementation might get confused if you have a partial clone.
18:03:57 <shachaf> What sort of partial clone?
18:04:14 <zzo38> To clone just one version or a few versions rather than all versions of the code.
18:08:47 <shachaf> Ah. git has something called a "shallow clone" which might do some of what you want.
18:09:01 <shachaf> I think some hg people do fancier things than that.
18:09:11 <zzo38> What fancier things?
18:26:34 <arcsor5> zzo38 how many esolangs have you made?
18:26:58 <arcsor5> im assuming more than 1 then?
18:46:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: svn has something like that, but not quite
18:46:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can make partial read-only mirrors of a repository
18:47:11 <b_jonas> but you can't really have two repositories such that you can write to either one
18:48:05 <b_jonas> git can't make partial clones, and I believe this is just a client limitation, the server that you clone from can send you just selected objects
18:48:22 <b_jonas> it's not an easy one to solve though
19:10:31 <fizzie> Depends on what you mean by "partial".
19:10:41 <fizzie> It can definitely do shallow clones, as shachaf mentioned.
19:10:54 <fizzie> And that's a reasonable reading of "just one version or a few versions".
19:13:35 <fizzie> Mercurial's (optional but bundled?) "narrow" extension can slice in the other direction, too; i.e., only check out specific directories.
19:14:44 <fizzie> For shallow clones on git, see the --depth, --shallow-since and --shallow-exclude flags.
19:18:06 <fizzie> (IIRC, both Chromium and AOSP support doing a no-history clone as a more or less standard practice, through their dedicated wrappers ('repo', 'fetch'), presumably because they're so ridiculously large.)
19:19:06 <zzo38> With fossil it would also be possible to ask the server for only some artifacts, although you would have to know the hash of the manifest that you want; the hashes of the files can then be found after downloading the manifest. However, the implementation does not have this capability, and it might also get confused if the previous version if not available (and propagating tags may be lost).
19:20:56 <zzo38> If you don't care about the repository but only want to download a specific version, the same method can be used.
19:25:59 <zzo38> Fossil has the ability for the server to create a ZIP archive or tape archive so that you can download it, but it is sometimes disabled due to system load, and alternative implementations might not have this function.
19:27:39 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81926&oldid=81846 * Leothetechguy * (-50)
19:30:06 <zzo38> The manifest will always mention all of the files though, even if you do not download some of them (in which case you cannot verify that the R card is correct).
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19:57:01 <esowiki> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81927&oldid=81922 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Turning tarpits
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20:12:33 <esowiki> [[WALP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81928&oldid=67500 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Programming in WALP */ Fix explanation after ~1 year
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23:25:42 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81929 * Largejamie * (+4496) Created page with "'''Airline food''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Largejamie]] in April 2021 whose programs are supposed to look like Jerry Seinfeld's stand-up. ==..."
23:28:03 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81930&oldid=81916 * Largejamie * (+1186)
23:30:11 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81931&oldid=81703 * Largejamie * (+380) /* AF */
23:30:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81932&oldid=81931 * Largejamie * (-1) /* Airline Food] */
23:30:53 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81933&oldid=81932 * Largejamie * (+0) /* Airline Food */
23:56:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81934&oldid=81923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* A */ [[Airline food]]
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01:21:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Timwi * uploaded "[[File:Efghij CHUNKY function.jpg]]": Uploading on behalf of [[User:BakersDozenBagels]]
01:21:58 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81936&oldid=80132 * Timwi * (+9) /* Example: CHUNKY (integer division function) */
01:22:15 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81937&oldid=81936 * Timwi * (+2) /* Example: CHUNKY (integer division function) */
01:36:05 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81938&oldid=81937 * BakersDozenBagels * (-3) Fixed CHUNKY backronym.
02:04:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: I usually want to be able to clone just some of the files. ideally some revisions of some files.
02:04:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, Mercurial can do partial clones? including pushing back to another repository from a partial clone?
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02:36:57 <zzo38> The format of fossil would also support this, although the implementation doesn't. However, if you want to commit unchanged files that you don't have, then you will not be able to calculate the R card; that is not a problem though, since the R card is optional.
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04:52:26 <LoganDark> ugh I am dying right now I am trying to find the name of a language that looks like this "({}{}{})({({}{})}){}" or something, I swear it was called like clusterfuck or cloisterfuck or something but I CAN'T FIND IT and it's driving me absolutely insane
04:54:58 <LoganDark> does anyone know what it's called?
04:59:00 <LoganDark> it uses parenthesis and curly braces only, and all of them must be matching
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07:38:58 <zzo38> I remember seeing such a thing I think, but I also don't know what it is called
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09:53:12 <fizzie> b_jonas: With an extension (hgext.narrow), yes. Also, I don't know how sort of stable/maintained it is, can't seem to find much by the way of documentation. But at least the code is still there: https://www.mercurial-scm.org/repo/hg/file/tip/hgext/narrow
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10:35:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KatzenTatzenTanz * New user account
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12:31:03 <esowiki> [[W-INTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81939&oldid=49138 * CMinusMinus * (+396) Added link for INTERCAL and fixed source code
12:46:58 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81940&oldid=77817 * CMinusMinus * (-105)
12:48:10 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81941&oldid=81940 * CMinusMinus * (+18)
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12:52:20 <esowiki> [[Kill]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81942&oldid=73688 * CMinusMinus * (-75)
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13:51:55 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81943&oldid=81886 * SCKelemen * (+24) complete fragment
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14:54:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:ND]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81944&oldid=61899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+289) /* 3D */ Add an idea
14:57:18 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81945&oldid=81943 * SCKelemen * (+10) fix format
14:57:41 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81946&oldid=81945 * SCKelemen * (-13) /* Pipelines */
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15:07:49 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81947&oldid=81946 * SCKelemen * (+53)
15:35:47 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81948&oldid=81947 * SCKelemen * (+24)
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16:10:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:RUBE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81949&oldid=33698 * Odog8 * (+190) asking question in talk
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20:34:05 <zzo38> Can the speed of hashcash be improved by saving some of the intermediate results from the middle of the hashing calculation? Are there ways to skip some possibilities thatare unlikely to work, after a partial calculation? You will only have to calculate the first few bits of the hash, so maybe this can also improve the speed?
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20:39:25 <int-e> hashcat? No, I don't think so... there are some tricks to save computations at the beginning and at the end of the hash computation if most of the hashed block's content remains unchanged.
20:39:57 <int-e> It depends on the hash... I've seen it for md5.
20:41:09 <kmc> is this why bitcoin uses double hashing?
20:43:51 <b_jonas> kmc: no, I think that's the same as for HMACs, because those old hashes have a vulnerability involving two strings one of which is a suffix of the other
20:44:09 <esowiki> [[User:FizzyApple12]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81950&oldid=58944 * FizzyApple12 * (-48) Made it more accurate and updated links
20:45:46 <esowiki> [[User:FizzyApple12]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81951&oldid=81950 * FizzyApple12 * (-17) more updates
20:50:24 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81952&oldid=81917 * Int-e * (+0) categories. sigh.
20:55:04 <zzo38> Hashcash does keep most of the contents of the same, I think.
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21:20:28 <zzo38> Fossil appends the MD5 hash to the end of the deck before computing the SHA-1 hash. In this case it is only used to verify that it is valid, but is it useful for any security purposes?
21:36:43 <esowiki> [[User:FizzyApple12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81953&oldid=81951 * FizzyApple12 * (-121) replaced with moderator note
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21:41:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: that might be for backwards compatibility to old versions of fossil perhaps
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23:36:01 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81954 * Zero player rodent * (+2808) Created page with "'''Among Us''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Zero player rodent]]. It is based on the popular game known as Among Us. The programs consist of colou..."
23:39:29 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81955&oldid=81954 * Zero player rodent * (-23)
23:39:57 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81956&oldid=81291 * Zero player rodent * (+48)
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23:49:11 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81957&oldid=81170 * Zero player rodent * (+64)
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00:12:19 <esowiki> [[Semeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81958&oldid=81875 * Icecream17 * (+2388) sigh
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04:42:09 <lyncid[m]> LoganDark: (maybe you read logs) I believe that language could be brain-flak?
04:42:59 <lyncid[m]> oh wait yours contains only parens and curly braces, so probably not. i believe there was a more minimal version of brain-flak called mini-flak, but i think that still had 3 types of braces
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04:58:47 <zzo38> I wrote a part of the document describing my ideas for a card game with separate decks using cryptography. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/separate_deck_crypto This document is incomplete; I will write more another day. (Maybe you can guess some of the rest of it, but maybe not. Maybe you also have ideas for improvement, too.)
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05:17:13 <zzo38> I also have a idea of a tarot game where the trumps score according to the letters in the roman numbers, where "I" is worth +1, "X" is worth -2, and "V" is worth nothing. (There can be other things that give you points too, e.g. the last trick might give you some bonus points, nontrumps might affect scoring, and there may also be bidding similar to bridge but you don't specify the trump suit (in tarot, there are permanent trumps).)
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09:13:42 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81959&oldid=81948 * SCKelemen * (-72) /* Hello World */
09:15:30 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81960&oldid=81959 * SCKelemen * (+0)
09:16:03 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81961&oldid=81960 * SCKelemen * (-41) /* Records */
09:16:29 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81962&oldid=81961 * SCKelemen * (-2) /* Unions and Intersections */
09:17:38 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81963&oldid=81962 * SCKelemen * (-5) /* Etymology */
09:27:45 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81964&oldid=81963 * SCKelemen * (+852) /* Type System */
09:45:09 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81965&oldid=81964 * SCKelemen * (+318) /* Features */
09:54:22 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81966&oldid=81965 * SCKelemen * (+26)
10:09:02 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81967&oldid=81966 * SCKelemen * (+490)
10:34:04 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81968&oldid=81967 * SCKelemen * (+183)
10:35:29 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81969&oldid=81968 * SCKelemen * (-6) /* History */
10:36:19 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81970&oldid=81969 * SCKelemen * (+1) /* Pattern Matching */
10:37:02 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81971&oldid=81970 * SCKelemen * (-4) /* Pattern Matching */
10:54:28 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81972&oldid=81971 * SCKelemen * (+182)
10:54:54 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81973&oldid=81972 * SCKelemen * (+1) /* Grammar */
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11:23:24 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81974&oldid=81973 * SCKelemen * (+76)
11:23:45 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81975&oldid=81974 * SCKelemen * (+2) /* Grammar */
11:28:33 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81976&oldid=81975 * SCKelemen * (+62) /* Grammar */
11:32:33 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81977&oldid=81976 * SCKelemen * (-4)
11:34:35 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81978&oldid=81977 * SCKelemen * (-4) /* Pattern Matching */
11:35:38 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81979&oldid=81978 * SCKelemen * (+0) /* Records */
11:50:17 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81980&oldid=81979 * SCKelemen * (+260) Add card example
11:53:04 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81981&oldid=81980 * SCKelemen * (+3)
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12:13:47 <esowiki> [[Proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81982&oldid=73270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Setting variables */ Use pre tag
12:16:55 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81983&oldid=81981 * SCKelemen * (+2) /* Cards */
12:22:04 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81984&oldid=81983 * SCKelemen * (+69) /* Cards */
12:24:48 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81985&oldid=81984 * SCKelemen * (+29) /* Cards */
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12:52:41 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81986&oldid=81985 * SCKelemen * (-139)
13:18:11 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81987&oldid=81986 * SCKelemen * (+115) /* Examples */
13:21:29 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81988&oldid=81938 * Timwi * (+10)
13:34:43 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81989&oldid=81987 * SCKelemen * (+327) /* Examples */
13:36:20 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81990&oldid=81989 * SCKelemen * (-1) /* Etymology */
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14:01:20 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81991&oldid=81990 * SCKelemen * (+156) /* Recursion */
14:05:54 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEnklxGAmak
14:06:27 <nakilon> interesting stuff about human languages, genetics, (I'm on 13th minute yet)
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14:17:14 <nakilon> "90% of languages will disappear in the next century"
15:09:29 <esowiki> [[User:AarMil42]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81992 * AarMil42 * (+71) Created page with "Just a guy who's a fan of esolangs. ...Oh, and I made [[Grok]]."
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15:42:03 <nakilon> (the relevant stuff is in the 15 minutes, the rest is more about the schizophrenia))
15:46:07 <esowiki> [[Grok]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81993 * AarMil42 * (+1479) Created page with "Grok is a two-dimensional, [[Push-down_automaton|stack-based]] language inspired by Befunge, ><>, and the Vim editor. It was invented by [[User:AarMil42]] in 2021. ==Concepts..."
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15:50:37 <APic> Neuroses are red,
15:50:38 <APic> Melancholia's blue.
15:50:38 <APic> I'm schizophrenic,
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18:01:19 <esowiki> [[Grok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81994&oldid=81993 * AarMil42 * (+8760) Finished the Grok Page
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18:19:33 <arseniiv> at least one of dynamically assigned IPs of my ISP is banned on Freenode :-\
18:32:36 <esowiki> [[O]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81995&oldid=46906 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* The sum of the cubes of a list from 1 to n */ Fix word ()
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19:21:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81996&oldid=81934 * AarMil42 * (+11) Added Grok
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20:19:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Unordered set in Haskell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81997 * Hakerh400 * (+30461) Unordered set in Haskell
20:19:58 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81998&oldid=81805 * Hakerh400 * (+71) Unordered set in Haskell
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20:37:57 <b_jonas> hmm, this seems vaguely of the style of one of those languages that ais523 was working on https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5402
20:43:28 <b_jonas> (see comments for how to extend the model to be more useful)
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20:54:03 <b_jonas> well, it is at least #esoteric-relevant
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22:10:02 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81999 * Hyperdawg * (+641) Created page with "IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI (I Honestly Can't Be Bothered To Write An Interpreter All By Myself So Everytime You Run A Command It Runs A Random Interpreter) is an interpreted esot..."
22:19:14 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82000&oldid=81999 * Hyperdawg * (+46) add nop program
22:19:33 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82001&oldid=82000 * Hyperdawg * (+5) /* Cat */
22:19:45 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82002&oldid=82001 * Hyperdawg * (+5) /* Hello World */
22:24:53 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82003&oldid=81459 * The-Ennemy * (+6667)
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22:37:00 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82004&oldid=82002 * Hyperdawg * (+70) /* Example Programs */
22:43:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hyperdawg * moved [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRARI]] to [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]]: name change
22:44:47 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82007&oldid=82005 * Hyperdawg * (+7)
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23:01:14 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82008&oldid=82003 * The-Ennemy * (+3839)
23:04:27 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82009&oldid=82008 * The-Ennemy * (+203) /* Jumps and control flow */
23:07:26 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82010&oldid=82009 * The-Ennemy * (+339) /* Jumps and control flow */
23:08:28 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82011&oldid=82010 * The-Ennemy * (+5) /* Virtual instructions */
23:09:20 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82012&oldid=82011 * The-Ennemy * (+70) /* Jumps and control flow */
23:11:31 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82013&oldid=82012 * The-Ennemy * (-117) /* Conditionals */
23:11:45 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82014&oldid=82013 * The-Ennemy * (+3) /* Conditionals */
23:18:49 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82015&oldid=82007 * Hyperdawg * (-1)
23:34:32 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82016&oldid=82015 * Hyperdawg * (-17) /* Nop */
23:34:43 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82017&oldid=82016 * Hyperdawg * (-18) /* Quit IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIWYT */
23:36:18 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82018&oldid=82017 * Hyperdawg * (+34)
23:53:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, a friend showed me that post too. I think I read about a similar train computation model (IIRC that was TC, or just powerful enough for this kind of models, because of latches which were allowed to be coupled together). Alas I don’t remember where I read about that or if it was a link from here all along
00:01:38 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82019&oldid=82018 * Hyperdawg * (+482)
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00:25:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the comments link to that
00:25:25 <b_jonas> with coupled track switches
00:26:02 <arseniiv> that’s good, then! I’m a bit sad when information is lost
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01:15:41 <esowiki> [[Abcout]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82020 * Sporeball * (+2042) create abcout page
01:19:15 <esowiki> [[User:Sporeball]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82021&oldid=68492 * Sporeball * (+48) add abcout to this
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01:37:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82022&oldid=81996 * Sporeball * (+13) add abcout to the language list
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02:49:44 <esowiki> [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82023&oldid=81667 * Hyperdawg * (+13)
02:50:43 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82024&oldid=82019 * Hyperdawg * (-463) /* Python */
02:51:29 <esowiki> [[IHCBBTWAIABMSEYRACIRWYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82025&oldid=82024 * Hyperdawg * (+39) /* Hello World */
03:22:37 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82026&oldid=81582 * Sporeball * (+100) add abcout to the list of OISCs
03:25:53 <oren> I have found a number for which the version of cosine in my complex.h
03:26:17 <oren> differs from the result i get from the x87 fcos instruction
03:27:57 <oren> 64.40000000000061675109 or 0x40501999999999c5 in hex
03:34:44 <shachaf> No one really uses the x87 instruction, right?
03:37:17 <oren> I expect they use some SSE thing by now
03:39:03 <kmc> i386 or amd64?
03:39:23 <kmc> iirc the amd64 ABI (at least on Linux) uses SSE registers for floats
03:39:35 <kmc> with the assumption that you're using SSE ops too
03:40:13 <pikhq> the amd64 ABI uses SSE registers for float and double but still x87 for long double
03:40:25 <oren> anyway, the complex.h one, when I step through it, appears to run the taylor series
03:40:36 <pikhq> (because long double is still an x87 80-bit float)
03:41:04 <kmc> how did x87 end up using 80 bits internally, anyway
03:42:22 <pikhq> design intent varied from how people actually used it, basically. the intent was that you'd do all intermediate computation in 80-bits, and then round when you were finally done to 64-bit or 32-bit
03:45:20 <pikhq> and x87 is _slightly_ odd as an FPU design overall -- as implemented in modern x86 it's IEEE-compliant, but x87 _predates_ IEEE floats
03:45:57 <pikhq> (the IEEE float standard is based on x87, not the other way around)
03:47:34 <kmc> i'm just wondering how they arrived at 80 bits specifically
03:48:02 <oren> double coscomplex(double x){return creal(cexp(I*x));}
03:48:07 <oren> double cosx87(double x){asm("fldl %1\n\tfcos\n\tfstpl %1":"+m"(x)::);return x;}
03:49:54 <kmc> was that for compatibility to an existing system
03:50:09 <kmc> or just deemed to be enough precision for intermediate calculations with a 64 bit result
03:50:54 <oren> I think it was probably a nice 10 byte round number. Also I think there was an existing 10 byte BCD format?
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03:51:53 <pikhq> i think it was the latter, kmc
03:52:04 <pikhq> aiui there was no pre-existing system they were compatible with
03:52:26 <pikhq> legacy float formats are... mind-bending nonsense, and not very ieee-reminiscent
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04:32:46 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9WyEfzWPg
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05:39:06 <zzo38> I don't like that Gemini protocol requires TLS; sometimes it is useful to have a non-TLS version. My suggestion is that the non-TLS version uses a different URI scheme, perhaps "insecure-gemini:" can be used. A non-proxy server that implements the non-TLS variant should treat the two URI schemes as equivalent. If a client certificate is requested, the client must switch to the secure protocol.
05:41:10 <zzo38> O, and about the trains; maybe write on esolang wiki something so that we can see how those models are working, and perhaps a syntax for computer codes with it
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10:32:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sporeball]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82027 * JonoCode9374 * (+6) Created page with "Frick."
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11:57:01 <esowiki> [[Seclusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82028&oldid=71198 * Hakerh400 * (+1822) Add TIO links
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13:21:57 <esowiki> [[User:Texenox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82029&oldid=42430 * Texenox * (-236) Replaced content with "no"
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13:23:22 <requestingdeleti> wasn't sure if there was a better place to ask in, but i was wondering if it were possible for an old account of mine on Esolangs to be deleted
13:23:54 <requestingdeleti> i've not used it in years and just leaving it to lie around there for so many years probably isn't very secure in the long run
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13:45:40 <requestingdeleti> i guess in that case i might as well leave that account to rot and nothing else?
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14:03:11 <fizzie> Missed that by 15 minutes. But I don't know the answer either.
14:03:29 <fizzie> I imagine there's quite a lot of "inactive" accounts on the wiki, anyway.
14:04:17 <int-e> As long as it's easier to create a new account than it is to hack an old one...
14:04:20 <int-e> ...I wouldn't worry.
14:04:46 <int-e> admin accounts may be a different ball game
14:10:05 <esowiki> [[Birb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82030 * SCKelemen * (+1548) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Birb |website= |paradigms=functional |author= |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |typesys=untyped |memsys=stack-based |refimpl= |class=:Category:Turing c..."
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14:59:29 <b_jonas> I agree with int-e, there's not much point to remove the old account. I did remove admin rights from myself this year on a wiki that I'm no longer interested in,
15:00:22 <b_jonas> and I had my privilages removed from my perlmonks.com account last year (they have a policy to remove janitor privilage from people who aren't active janitors, but nothing like that for the lower privilages that I had).
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15:42:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82031&oldid=82022 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* B */ [[Birb]]
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16:40:55 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82032&oldid=82014 * The-Ennemy * (+19) /* Stack access */
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17:05:54 <esowiki> [[Birb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82033&oldid=82030 * SCKelemen * (+70) /* Symbols */
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17:15:40 <esowiki> [[Falel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82034 * Umanochiocciola * (+1642) Created page with "Fancy Assembly Like EsoLang This is a little thing I made after playing Shenzen I/O. ==Documentation== <code> Memory Scheme | out-buff | in-buff | acc | x3 ...."
17:16:50 <esowiki> [[Falel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82035&oldid=82034 * Umanochiocciola * (+6)
17:17:10 <esowiki> [[Falel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82036&oldid=82035 * Umanochiocciola * (-15)
17:17:28 <esowiki> [[Falel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82037&oldid=82036 * Umanochiocciola * (+1)
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19:12:59 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82038&oldid=81708 * Hyperdawg * (+15)
19:24:01 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if it's common nowadays to use a 1600x1200 resolution when emulating the non-square-pixel 4:3 320x200 VGA display modes. That'd give the right aspect ratio, and integer scaling in both dimensions (320*5 = 1600, 200*6 = 1200), and fit into a reasonably sized window on an 1440p monitor.
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19:25:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: but most people use 1920x1080 resolution monitors, so that won't work
19:25:32 <b_jonas> and we also might want space for other things
19:26:19 <b_jonas> (I personally have an 1920x1200 monitor, 16:10 ratio, at home right now, until this one dies completely, but those are hard to buy)
19:26:28 <b_jonas> so we just use smaller sizes
19:26:28 <fizzie> Do they? I thought 1440p and 2560p was getting pretty popular?
19:26:49 <fizzie> Well, I guess it's still "most".
19:26:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: a few people have such high resolution, but I think 1920x1080 is still the most common
19:27:21 <fizzie> Yeah, https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ says 67.35% 1920x1080, and 8.01% 2560x1440.
19:27:34 <fizzie> (And 2.41% 3840x2160.)
19:28:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: mind you, it's likely that the 1920x1080 are the monitors that the office buys to people to do their job, and the videogamers that emulate 320x200 resolution games are more likely to have more or bigger monitors at home where they play the videogames
19:28:56 <b_jonas> (there's of course the opposite effect, with radiologists who use big monitors for their work, but that's a small minority)
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19:52:14 <fizzie> I've settled on a 2x 25" 2560x1440 combination, but at the office it was more convenient to go with the stock arrangement of 2x 27" 2560x1440, which I think is a little bit larger than necessary, physically speaking. (The *other* stock arrangement would have been 1x 32" 3840x2160.)
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19:54:16 <b_jonas> I don't know yet what monitor I'll buy, and I hope I won't have to buy it soon, because I would hate if this one died
19:57:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, but maybe you don't work at one of those run-of-the-mill office jobs, but as a programmer who sometimes uses their work computer for more than Excel spreadsheets and facebook
20:02:53 <fizzie> One inconvenience with a two-monitor setup is that if you need to replace one (because of the magic smoke getting out, for example), you're limited to (a) sticking with the existing dot pitch, (b) ending up with two monitors where moving a window from one to another makes everything larger, or (c) having to replace a perfectly good monitor as well.
20:03:28 <fizzie> I spent quite a few years in option (b), with a 2560x1440 + 1920x1200 pair.
20:07:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: plus it only works for the lizardmen from mars who infiltrated Earth, because they have pairs of chameleon eyes so they can look at multiple monitors at the same time. I for one hate that setup, it just leads either to staring at a boundary between two monitors, or having to turn my neck to stare at one monitor all the time. I'm glad I could convince my job to take one monitor away, the
20:07:57 <b_jonas> resulting one monitor setup is more enjoyable.
20:09:10 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82039&oldid=82038 * Hyperdawg * (+162) /* Example programs */
20:09:49 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82040&oldid=82039 * Hyperdawg * (-52) /* Hello World */
20:11:48 <esowiki> [[Fishheads]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82041&oldid=82040 * Hyperdawg * (+84)
20:20:25 <nakilon> "lie around there for so many years probably isn't very secure in the long run"
20:20:54 <nakilon> I feel like his point was something like that he used the same password everywhere at that time ..D
20:21:35 <fizzie> Well, they could certainly generate a random new password. Assuming they can log on to that account still.
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20:22:52 <nakilon> but the leak could happen any time
20:23:15 <nakilon> before he realised he has this account "to lie around there for so many years"
20:23:48 <nakilon> not that it's possible to do anything about it
20:24:08 <nakilon> I'm just giving my guess just why he was asking about this at all
20:33:29 <HackEso> The password of the month is hiding in plain sight.
20:34:20 <b_jonas> so it did get changed, though rather late
21:04:17 <pikhq> i should get a new monitor. it's a touch annoying having a high DPI and standard DPI screen
21:04:38 <pikhq> though at least these days i'm using all mac os, and the mac os support for that is not-terrible (unlike other OSes i could name)
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23:17:28 <kmc> my new laptop is a 14" 1080p
23:17:44 <kmc> higher DPI would be nice, but it's a good screen in other respects
23:17:50 <kmc> i don't really care about 16:9 versus 16:10
23:19:53 <int-e> > let f w h = w*h/(w^2+h^2) in f 16 10/f 16 9
23:20:13 <int-e> 16:10 gives you 5% more screen space for the same diagonal length ;)
23:22:38 <zzo38> The monitor will have to fit on the desk, and you might want pixels of a certain minimum and maximum size
23:27:34 <pikhq> this is... 2560x1600, 13.3" (16:10)
23:27:49 <pikhq> which is a pretty nice resolution for a small display
23:30:41 * pikhq has liked this laptop a fair bit more than she was expecting
23:34:30 <fizzie> 16:10 1920x1200 has that (niche?) benefit that you can play 16:9 1080p video without any scaling and still have space at the bottom (or top, if you bend that way) for showing playback controls without obscuring the video.
23:34:48 <fizzie> Hmm, or maybe subtitles. Though I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad idea.
23:36:02 <zzo38> I think it is fine to hide playback controls and use the controls on the keyboard, although you may want to display subtitles/captions and time codes, and the track number
23:36:17 <pikhq> yeah, the playback controls thing is the justification for 16:10
23:36:41 <pikhq> tho even watching video on here i really do prefer to have them hidden when not interacting with the controls
23:36:54 <pikhq> letterboxing is just nicer than graphics that arent what im looking at
23:41:57 <zzo38> Does any DVD video software allow you to adjust the colours and opacity of the subtitles?
23:43:23 <zzo38> (I have read some details of the format, and it seems that this should be possible, but I have never seen any DVD player that has such an option.)
23:48:49 <fizzie> I think mpv can convert them to grayscale (--sub-gray, mentions DVD image subtitles), but I think nothing more elaborate than that. DVDSubEdit (a Windows-only program?) appears to have an arbitrary color remapping option, but it's not a playback program.
23:49:12 <fizzie> (DVDSubEdit looks vaguely familiar. I wonder if I've maybe used it.)
23:51:00 <kmc> I haven't used VLC to play DVDs, but I believe it can, and it allows adjusting the colors and opacity of subtitles in general
23:53:01 <zzo38> The DVD player I have (connected to the television) can change the colours and opacity of captions, but not of subtitles. (However, you cannot turn on/off captions or select them during playback, but you can select subtitles during playback.)
23:56:01 <pikhq> i don't know if anything can, i usually just accept the subtitle rendering for whatever i'm watching
23:58:39 <nakilon> do you watch movies from DVD? _Oo
23:59:30 <pikhq> admittedly whenever i _do_ watch things on dvd it's actually me ripping it :p
23:59:40 <pikhq> and i usually mux the raw dvd subs in when i do that
00:00:09 <zzo38> (This is one reason I prefer to use captions instead. With captions, it is also possible to change the font, too. It is not possible to change the font of DVD subtitles, although the format would allow changing colours/opacity, that doesn't seem to be implemented. Changing the font of DVD subtitles after it has been recorded is not possible though.)
00:00:28 <esowiki> [[User:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82042&oldid=68840 * Truttle1 * (+58)
00:01:09 <pikhq> yeah, since DVD subtitles are just bitmaps, only so much you can do
00:02:31 <zzo38> They are stored using indexed colours, and with the specification of what colour to use for which index. So, this should easily allow the user to change which colour corresponds to which index.
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00:32:32 <kmc> I didn't know they are bitmaps
00:32:51 <kmc> I guess that is easier than every DVD player having fonts and rendering code for every language out there
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00:43:14 <zzo38> Yes, it is easier. It has advantages and disadvantages compared with captions (although it is possible for DVDs to have captions, too, but not all DVD players can play them; if the DVD player does not have its own ability to render captions and the connection to the display is HDMI, then it will not be possible to display the captions at all; subtitles don't have this problem, although this is also a problem with HDMI)
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00:53:59 <zzo38> How can I tell 7-Zip to add empty files?
00:55:18 <zzo38> It seems that it does, but why does'nt it list them when they are being added to the archive?
00:56:49 <kmc> zzo38: so HDMI does not include a way to carry captions data?
00:57:21 <kmc> i'm surprised to hear that
00:59:07 <zzo38> kmc: As far as I know, that is correct, it doesn't. (Someone mentioned to me SDI, and apparely SDI does.)
01:00:07 <zzo38> (I would prefer Digi-RGB+audio+IMIDI, but this is currently never used; the electrical specification has not yet been written.)
01:02:23 <zzo38> (Only the format of the data has been written so far.)
01:03:25 <nakilon> why use 7zip in the first place?
01:03:55 <pikhq> Yeah, DVDs have some aspects that feel pretty archaic because they're designed around technical limitations that are a fair bit older than their common adoption.
01:04:04 <pikhq> The technical limitations of 1995 are baked into the file format
01:05:22 <zzo38> The compression of 7-Zip is better than ZIP. I tried again this time creating a ZIP archive, this time it does list all of the files. When creating a 7-Zip archive, it doesn't list empty files, but still adds them; this seems to be a bug.
01:07:08 <pikhq> Yeah, and ZIP has a max file size that's relatively small
01:07:22 <pikhq> (the zip64 extension lets you surpass that, but not much supports it)
01:08:06 <zzo38> I have never had problems with the file size limit
01:08:26 <pikhq> The file size limit is, admittedly, 4 gigs
01:08:47 <pikhq> So it's not low enough it'll prevent all uses, just low enough it'll prevent a few reasonable ones
01:11:33 <zzo38> Now I added the sokoban example into the repository of Free Hero Mesh, in case an example is wanted. Later, it might be better to have a proper puzzle set catalog, like how Tom7's Escape game has a level catalog by internet.
01:13:17 <zzo38> (Currently a compressed tape archive is used, but for the puzzle catalog, a compressed Hamster archive might be better.)
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02:05:27 <esowiki> [[Abcout]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82043&oldid=82020 * Sporeball * (+0) link to Subleq within quote
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02:38:11 <nakilon> this max file limit might be the only reason to not use zip
02:38:35 <nakilon> if that's a problem I would check the .tar.gz out
02:40:09 <nakilon> but 7zip is just a cancer unconsciously marketed out to relatively noticable use by those who have a bit more knowledge about computers than a farm worker
02:41:00 <nakilon> there are hundreds of compressors and if you want to debate on that subject you'll find that 7zip isn't the best so it's not an argument
02:41:58 <nakilon> the real argument is compatibility and AFAIK the most crossplatform formats for compressing files are .ZIP and .TAR.GZ
02:42:08 <nakilon> everything else needs shitty installers
02:44:08 <nakilon> and going back to real benchmarks, the RAR still wins if you add this up with the fact that it's not abandoned unlike most of others https://gist.github.com/Nakilon/09fac4335b95f9617e4c82af4d9e1e7d
02:45:50 <nakilon> also the last time I had to unpack 7zip it could not unpack, lol, was not liking the file names encoding
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03:40:48 <zzo38> Actually, I decompressed a RAR file I saw and recompressed it as 7Z format and the 7Z file is smaller. However, neither format is quite what I would have wanted. I had my own idea, which includes VM codes so that specialized algorithms are possible; ZPAQ does that, but I don't really like its design and would prefer having archiving and compression separate (like .tar.gz is).
03:41:08 <zzo38> But ZIP is most common, so if you don't need the features or extra compression of other formats, then ZIP can be used.
03:47:48 <zzo38> One possible advantage of captions over subtitles is the possibility of caption scrollback, although I don't know of anything that implements it. (For some uses, hidden captions would also be useful; I think EIA-708 has this, but I don't know if it is used. I think it has tagged captions, but I haven't seen any implementation that has options to customize the tag mask.)
03:49:40 <zzo38> DVD subtitles are numbered, and also are identified by languages. I read about one movie that has an option for English and French subtitles together (depending on the speech); how would you specify the language for that in the DVD subtitles format?
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05:40:02 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82044&oldid=81781 * Zzo38 * (+572)
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05:59:20 <nakilon> you may consider not just specialized algorithm but a specialised training data
06:00:33 <nakilon> some successfull decompressors are using a generic algorithms plus the preforged "description" of the data the decompressor should expect to unpack to
06:01:46 <nakilon> it's essentially putting the knowledge about the data into the decompressor and the more effective they get the more they weight nowadays
06:02:22 <nakilon> like recognition AIs you know
06:06:56 <nakilon> so the thing is if your goal isn't to distribute something self-extracting but to make users to have a decompressor installed separately from the data they'll get later separately then I would look for tools that provide the way to build the training data from your sample input
06:07:30 <nakilon> but again this might be just not worth it
06:14:18 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82045&oldid=82044 * Zzo38 * (+831)
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11:30:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Olus2000 * New user account
11:44:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82046&oldid=81925 * Olus2000 * (+323) Introduction of Olus2000
11:53:05 <esowiki> [[User:Olus2000]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82047 * Olus2000 * (+249) Initial commit
11:55:23 <esowiki> [[User:Olus2000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82048&oldid=82047 * Olus2000 * (+0) Capitalisation of BAL
12:08:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Schadimander * New user account
12:14:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82049&oldid=82046 * Schadimander * (+284) introducing?
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12:26:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82050&oldid=68486 * Schadimander * (+160)
12:26:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82051&oldid=82050 * Schadimander * (+2)
12:28:41 <fizzie> I seem to remember there was some convention in DVD subtitles to use an uncommon (relatively speaking) language as an ad-hoc standard for some other purpose. Can't remember the details though.
12:29:30 <fizzie> Or maybe I'm thinking of DVB broadcasting (in Finland), and using some uncommon language for the accessibility / hearing-impaired / audio description captions.
12:32:44 <fizzie> Some interweb searching seems to suggest DVB has dedicated subtitle types for "regular use" and "hearing impaired", but I guess it's not impossible they might have been worried about software support and still picked a different fake language code.
13:00:36 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, 7zip is a decent compressor for its own format, with a nice easily tunable parameter, a nice package supporting a lot of existing compressed and misc formats, a usable windows GUI, with a terribly messed up command-line interface. but since it's open source, it should be possible to fix the command-line interface. I use 7zip to do much of my compression these days.
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13:26:08 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82052&oldid=81578 * Hakerh400 * (+786) Add hello-world example
13:34:32 <esowiki> [[Referencement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82053&oldid=79029 * Hakerh400 * (+2715) Add TIO links
13:56:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Assembly Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82054 * Olus2000 * (+6178) Initial commit
14:04:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82055&oldid=82031 * Olus2000 * (+34) Added Brainfuck Assembly Language
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14:31:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheTermProgrammer * New user account
14:49:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82056&oldid=80257 * Betseg * (+407) /* Metacategorization */ new section
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14:52:25 <betseg> how do i propose a page for deletion
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14:54:40 <betseg> how do i propose a page for deletion
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15:10:26 <kspalaiologos> you can @tell fizzie about it, probably. or ping them.
15:10:53 <betseg> it redirects to an unrelated language
15:11:48 <betseg> and emojicode itself is a non-eso lang
15:14:01 <kspalaiologos> it's an attempt of creating a bizzare language and then branding it as a normal language
15:14:59 <betseg> it's a normal language that happens to use emoji as its reserved words and function names
15:16:05 <kspalaiologos> asm2bf is a serious assembler, yet it's still considered an esolang by most people.
15:19:02 <kspalaiologos> someone could probably write an esolangs wiki article on it, though.
15:19:20 <kspalaiologos> it's esoteric enough to have it's own article, and if APL deserves being on the wiki, then emojicode surely does too :P
15:19:21 <betseg> yeah it's still a false redirecrt
15:19:37 <betseg> wait APL is considered esoteric???
15:19:54 <kspalaiologos> i know multiple people who think that APL/J are esolangs
15:19:59 <betseg> oh its article says "non-esoteric"
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15:29:51 <lyncid[m]> oh hello betseg, didn't expect to see you here (am kritixi)
15:35:37 <esowiki> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82057&oldid=66398 * Betseg * (+55) Removed redirect to [[Emoji]]
15:36:39 <esowiki> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82058&oldid=82057 * Betseg * (+53)
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15:45:31 <esowiki> [[Emojicode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82059&oldid=82058 * Betseg * (+10)
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16:17:29 <esowiki> [[Falel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82060&oldid=82037 * Umanochiocciola * (-133) /* Documentation */
16:20:06 <esowiki> [[Falel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82061&oldid=82060 * Umanochiocciola * (+37) /* Documentation */
16:20:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82062&oldid=81679 * Umanochiocciola * (-35) /* Commands */
16:21:04 <esowiki> [[Falel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82063&oldid=82061 * Umanochiocciola * (+14) /* Documentation */
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16:40:38 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82064 * Olus2000 * (+607) initial commit
16:41:47 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82065&oldid=82064 * Olus2000 * (+14) Corrected category link
16:42:47 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82066&oldid=82065 * Olus2000 * (+0) Corrected category
16:47:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82067&oldid=82055 * Olus2000 * (+24) Added toki pi ilo nanpa
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18:04:53 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82068&oldid=82066 * Betseg * (+14)
18:05:05 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82069&oldid=82068 * Betseg * (-15)
18:06:40 <esowiki> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82070&oldid=82059 * Betseg * (+39)
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18:43:26 <int-e> Ooph, I finished Recursed... only to discover https://recursed-ice-palace.github.io/
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19:15:25 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82071&oldid=82069 * Olus2000 * (+2169) Base info on variables
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19:22:42 <olus2000> Recursed looks awesome, and very affordable too! Thanks for the mention.
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19:49:55 <int-e> olus2000: it is a very cute game. be warned that the puzzles get quite hard though.
19:51:25 <int-e> (I bought it two years ago actually and didn't finish it on the first run. I restarted from scratch a week or two ago... though obviously I still remembered quite a few tricks.)
19:51:45 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82072&oldid=81558 * Hakerh400 * (-1) /* Syntactic sugar */
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20:38:59 <arcsor5> After a long hiatus, i am back
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20:53:09 <olus2000> Judging by the first half of the levels I wish it were harder, but I believe next word will start to be a serious problem. That's what I like in puzzle levels.
20:54:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82073&oldid=82056 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+184) /* Metacategorization */ Reply
20:55:45 <oerjan> so we've learned that vozzling is topologically similar to knitting, and children love vozzlers.
20:57:05 <oerjan> i conclude that they're manifold surgeons, who repair hyperdimensional plush toys.
20:59:42 <oerjan> int-e: also it will be interesting to see if kjarl retains any of his time powers. should be useful in a war...
20:59:58 <oerjan> although gil already has the dreen
21:00:25 <oerjan> but kjarl seems to be easier to communicate with
21:01:27 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82074&oldid=81643 * Quintopia * (-4) correct analytical engine programming cards link
21:01:36 * oerjan is still catching up to stuff. currently binging shtetl-optimized
21:02:52 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82075&oldid=82074 * Quintopia * (+4) bullets
21:08:13 <int-e> olus2000: it starts out easy... the first tricky levels should turn up in the ruins
21:09:25 <int-e> (so the 4th level set)
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21:29:40 <int-e> oerjan: Hmm I guess I have given up on trying to predict GG, so I have not thought about what Kjarl may do in the future.
21:32:05 <int-e> It was complicated enough before they skipped, what was it, 8 months? after Klaus froze Mechanicsburg.
21:34:10 <int-e> So I'm pondering small things. Like... what did Krosp notice about that cat?
21:34:33 <oerjan> my theory: martellus made it have super-high cat rank like krosp
21:35:00 <oerjan> so it's the first cat he's ever met that doesn't submit to him
21:36:34 <oerjan> essentially, she's the empress of all cats
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22:17:37 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82076&oldid=81744 * Grom * (+12)
22:19:45 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82077&oldid=82076 * Grom * (+0)
22:20:16 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82078&oldid=82077 * Grom * (+24)
22:27:09 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82079&oldid=81642 * Quintopia * (+3421) /* Attendant Cards */
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23:51:26 <zzo38> I like to be able to skip to whatever level of the puzzle game that I want to do, and keep track of which ones are solved or unsolved
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01:09:00 <zzo38> Please tell me if this is good http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/separate_deck_crypto it is what I mentioned a few days ago
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03:03:14 <esowiki> [[E++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82080 * Schadimander * (+296) Created page with "E++ is a language made by me. It is a joke language. It is a copy of E. Binary list: E - binary 1 A - binary 0 Command list: 101101001 - Prints E 100101110 - Prints A 10110 -..."
03:04:56 <esowiki> [[Category:Joke language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82081 * Schadimander * (+30) Created page with "I don't know what to put here."
03:06:42 <esowiki> [[E++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82082&oldid=82080 * Schadimander * (+5)
03:07:18 <esowiki> [[E++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82083&oldid=82082 * Schadimander * (+3)
03:09:53 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82084&oldid=81956 * Schadimander * (+53)
03:10:34 <esowiki> [[Category:Schadimander's Things]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82085 * Schadimander * (+14) Created page with "Nevermind here"
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08:11:44 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Trance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82086&oldid=81611 * Hakerh400 * (+2349) Add two more examples
08:16:44 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82087&oldid=76531 * RocketRace * (+95) Clarify invalid operation behavior
08:17:22 <esowiki> [[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82088&oldid=73315 * Hakerh400 * (+1865) Add TIO links
08:22:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:LyricLy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82089 * Citrons * (+14) /* beans */ new section
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11:22:12 <esowiki> [[User:Schadimander]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82090 * Schadimander * (+63) Created page with "It is me, Schadimander! You can talk below this text. Have fun!"
11:23:59 <esowiki> [[E++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82091&oldid=82083 * Schadimander * (+29)
11:24:40 <esowiki> [[E++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82092&oldid=82091 * Schadimander * (+4)
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14:23:40 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82095&oldid=82071 * Olus2000 * (+1977) Documentation revamp
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19:39:23 <delta23> what class of language would it be if there was a programming language that had no conditionals or branches - but
19:39:37 <delta23> had self modification and by definition each program was in an infinite loop ?
19:40:28 <kmc> it depends on the details but such a thing could easily be turing-complete
19:41:46 <kmc> you can easily build data conditionals out of arithmetic -- if x is a 0-or-1 bool then x*a + (1-x)*b is equivelent to (x ? a : b)
19:42:12 <kmc> and if you have self modifying code then it's easy to turn data conditionals into control flow conditionals
19:45:39 <int-e> delta23: what do you think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/SMETANA
19:47:04 <delta23> int-e: that case is more obvious though
19:49:10 <int-e> delta23: Well, it's simple, it has no conditionals, and it is self-modifying.
19:50:00 <kmc> you can implement unconditional 'goto' as a write to some 'program counter' variable
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19:50:05 <kmc> (not in SMETANA but in general I mean)
19:50:41 <kmc> every instruction in your infinite loop is assigned a "line number" and is coded in such a way that it checks the pc variable and has no side effect unless the pc is equal to that line number
19:50:52 <kmc> then you 'goto' by writing to pc and just waiting for it to loop around to that instruction
19:52:53 <kmc> 10 X = Y; GOTO 20 ==> x = (pc == 10 ? y : x); pc = 20
19:53:01 <kmc> this sort of thing doesn't need self modifying code either
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19:53:16 <kmc> unless your arthimetic primitives are sufficiently impovrished
19:53:47 <int-e> Well if you allow ?: you should be happy with Fractran-like formalisms.
19:54:49 <kmc> oh yeah, fractran is a good point of reference here
19:55:15 <kmc> but I aimed to show above that the ?: construct is not essential
19:55:26 <kmc> if you have more ordinary arithmetic
20:00:22 <int-e> . o O ( s/SGX (compromise|vulnerability)/SGX backdoor/g )
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21:33:53 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82096&oldid=81991 * SCKelemen * (+368) /* Type System */
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00:12:01 <esowiki> [[Category:Joke language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82097&oldid=82081 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) This should be deleted
00:12:29 <esowiki> [[E++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82098&oldid=82093 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
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00:33:40 <esowiki> [[PYSP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82099 * IFcoltransG * (+1637) Created page with "'''PYSP''' (for '''PYthon String Programming''') is a DSL embedded by an unknown user in Python, described as '[[lisp]]like'. It seems to have been inspired by such languages..."
00:36:18 <esowiki> [[PYSP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82100&oldid=82099 * IFcoltransG * (+222) Fix formatting
00:42:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Joke language]]": empty, unapproved category (the approved one is [[Category:Joke languages]])
00:44:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Schadimander's Things]]": unapproved/undiscussed category
00:44:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82101&oldid=82067 * IFcoltransG * (+11) /* P */ Add PYSP
00:45:35 <esowiki> [[PYSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82102&oldid=82100 * IFcoltransG * (+15) Wording
00:46:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82103&oldid=82073 * Ais523 * (+496) /* Can we have an Imperative paradigm category now please? */ no objection, but some things to think about
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01:15:38 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82104&oldid=82026 * Ais523 * (-9) /* List of OISCs */ table formatting fix
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02:09:11 <esowiki> [[PYSP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82105&oldid=82102 * IFcoltransG * (+109) Adapt to new data about reference implementation
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04:43:45 <zzo38> What do some C compilers do that target an instruction set that does not use an addressable stack (if there is any)?
04:45:40 <zzo38> Does LLVM support such a thing at all?
04:46:39 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82106&oldid=81933 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+52) Aheui
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05:22:53 <esowiki> [[PYSP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82107&oldid=82105 * LyricLy * (-11)
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06:23:19 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82108&oldid=80503 * Sporeball * (+135) command -> instruction, other changes
06:47:32 <zzo38> Someone mentioned to me today about a programming language to make animations about mathematics, but I don't know what it is.
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06:56:41 <nakilon> there was some JS library for animations that some math youtube channel is using
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08:43:07 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82109&oldid=79801 * Palaiologos * (+1691) v1.5.3+ changelogs; fix a deadlink
08:43:43 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82110&oldid=82109 * Palaiologos * (+7) add a missing </pre>
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08:45:10 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82111&oldid=82110 * Palaiologos * (-29) fix unintentional indent causing the bullet list to be interpreted as verbatim text.
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09:51:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * New user account
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11:16:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82112&oldid=82049 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (+249) /* Introductions */ introduced the best person ever.
11:16:08 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82113&oldid=79420 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (+1483) Added information about implementing bitwise operators in SUBLEQ, and links to information about running a Forth interpreter on top of SUBLEQ
11:18:50 <esowiki> [[User:SubleqIsTheBestLeq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82114 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (+34) i like subleq
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11:49:52 <b_jonas> delta23: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic is an example for a language that is Turing-complete despite no control structures other than a global loop
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13:26:05 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1231.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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15:25:06 <esowiki> [[E++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82115&oldid=82098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-36) Remove redcat
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17:21:01 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82116&oldid=81757 * Not applicable * (+2375) start work on StupidZM
17:21:57 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82117&oldid=82116 * Not applicable * (+0) i always mess up something...
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18:37:44 <oozed1> Im under a different username this time
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01:20:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Beniolenio * New user account
01:26:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82118&oldid=82112 * Beniolenio * (+398) /* Introductions */
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04:21:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Julia * New user account
04:25:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82119&oldid=82118 * Julia * (+156) /* Introductions */
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06:37:56 <esowiki> [[BitBounce]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82120&oldid=81623 * Hakerh400 * (+6514) Add hello world and cat programs
06:38:34 <esowiki> [[BitBounce]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82121&oldid=82120 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
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06:51:36 <esowiki> [[Golden sunrise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82122&oldid=71043 * Hakerh400 * (+3354) Add TIO links and hello world example
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08:19:42 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82123&oldid=82095 * Olus2000 * (+3486)
08:21:08 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82124&oldid=82123 * Olus2000 * (+7) unmached <code>
08:22:11 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82125&oldid=82124 * Olus2000 * (+1) More unmached <code>
08:43:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wolfos * New user account
08:44:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82126&oldid=82119 * Wolfos * (+138)
08:45:06 <esowiki> [[Ook!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82127&oldid=59956 * Wolfos * (-46)
08:50:11 <esowiki> [[Floof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82128 * Julia * (+4926) init Floof page
08:53:13 <esowiki> [[Floof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82129&oldid=82128 * Julia * (-44) removed unneeded italics
08:56:25 <esowiki> [[User:Julia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82130 * Julia * (+8) init me
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11:29:29 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82131 * Hakerh400 * (+5224) +[[]]
11:29:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82132&oldid=82101 * Hakerh400 * (+9) +[[]]
11:29:38 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82133&oldid=81998 * Hakerh400 * (+9) +[[]]
11:30:17 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82134&oldid=82133 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
11:30:29 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82135&oldid=82134 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
11:35:45 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82136&oldid=82131 * Hakerh400 * (+9)
11:38:23 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82137&oldid=82136 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
11:41:38 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82138&oldid=82137 * Hakerh400 * (+50)
11:42:50 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82139&oldid=82138 * Hakerh400 * (-2)
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12:17:18 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82140&oldid=82125 * Olus2000 * (+68) /* Values and types */
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12:20:50 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82141&oldid=82140 * Olus2000 * (+1) /* Paragraphs */
12:22:34 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82142&oldid=82141 * Olus2000 * (+115) /* Assignment */
12:28:49 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82143&oldid=82142 * Olus2000 * (+110) /* Paragraphs */ explained how to pass parameters to paragraphs
12:31:59 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82144&oldid=82143 * Olus2000 * (+12) /* Control structures */
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12:55:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82145&oldid=82132 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* F */ [[Floof]]
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13:24:57 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82146&oldid=82144 * Olus2000 * (+951)
13:25:58 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82147&oldid=82146 * Olus2000 * (+2) unmached <code>
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14:05:39 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82148&oldid=79528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-83) /* Implementation */ Remove duplication
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14:36:20 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82149&oldid=82147 * Olus2000 * (+1457)
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15:28:47 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82150&oldid=82149 * Olus2000 * (+891) More verbs
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17:07:25 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82151&oldid=81583 * Kefalonia * (+15) make the sentence readable
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20:05:34 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82152&oldid=82150 * Olus2000 * (+39)
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20:38:33 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82153&oldid=81913 * EnilKoder * (+44) Added Rhapsody in Blue to unimplemented ideas comment
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21:16:02 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82154&oldid=82152 * Olus2000 * (-39) Colons are not a part of the language
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02:03:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82155&oldid=81251 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+303) /* Euler's birthday is coming. */ new section
02:04:43 <esowiki> [[Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82156&oldid=43145 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+25) Recategorization
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05:48:20 <zzo38> I would want web browser to include a "mime-override:" URI scheme.
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10:33:37 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82157&oldid=71617 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (-1) /* C Implementation */ Fixed common mistake
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10:49:58 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82158&oldid=82113 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (+373) Added clarification about the OISC-y-ness of most SUBLEQ implementions.
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12:54:46 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82159&oldid=81304 * RetroPain * (+9) /* Truth-machine */
12:55:15 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82160&oldid=82159 * RetroPain * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
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14:14:52 <b_jonas> https://esoteric.codes/blog/david-madore newer interview with David Madore
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15:38:51 <esowiki> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82161&oldid=82160 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* Hello, world! */ Make sentence truer
15:39:59 <esowiki> [[PDA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82162&oldid=81915 * Largejamie * (+389) /* Examples */
15:41:48 <esowiki> [[PDA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82163&oldid=82162 * Largejamie * (+59) /* Overview */
15:42:18 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82164&oldid=81700 * Largejamie * (+59) /* Overview */
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17:56:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Makonede * New user account
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17:58:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82165&oldid=82126 * Makonede * (+117)
18:21:21 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82166 * Makonede * (+522) Created page with "'''Duocentehexaquinquagesimal''' is a derivative of [[Golunar]], which itself is a derivative of [[Unary]], which itself is a derivative of [[brainfuck]]. It operates in nearl..."
18:23:34 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82167&oldid=82166 * Makonede * (+276)
18:24:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82168&oldid=82145 * Makonede * (+33)
18:33:52 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82169&oldid=82167 * Makonede * (+39)
18:34:12 <esowiki> [[User:Makonede]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82170 * Makonede * (+5) Created page with "hello"
18:35:37 <esowiki> [[User:Makonede]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82171&oldid=82170 * Makonede * (+48)
18:35:44 <esowiki> [[User:Makonede]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82172&oldid=82171 * Makonede * (-1)
18:40:10 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82173&oldid=82169 * Makonede * (+36)
18:40:27 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82174&oldid=82173 * Makonede * (+2)
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19:41:30 <zzo38> How do I find the IRC that someone may be interested in my "Free Hero Mesh" software? I tried #freenode but they wouldn't help.
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20:18:24 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82175&oldid=82174 * Makonede * (-36)
20:54:50 <int-e> zzo38: Maybe create a channel and mention it on the FHM page? But maybe nobody cares...
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22:01:43 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82176&oldid=82175 * Makonede * (+423)
22:04:08 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82177&oldid=82176 * Makonede * (+5)
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23:31:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoticon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82178&oldid=75966 * Mercerenies * (+368)
23:34:28 <tslil> hmm, i used to hang out here years ago. I wonder what happened to the other folks that were around then, perhaps everyone has moved to some new platform?
23:35:31 <zzo38> Or maybe they are just not on any more; sometimes that happens.
23:36:20 <tslil> fair enough, that's probably more likely.
23:37:34 <tslil> yeah, let's see, i was here last in ~2009. I think i only recognise the two bots! :p
23:38:31 <tslil> well i had come back to say thank you: although i can't prove it, i suspect that the time i spent on this channel was formative in my life choices and education, so thanks all!
23:39:40 <int-e> hmm hmm. https://esolangs.org/logs/2008-03-21.html#lek
23:41:22 <int-e> ais523 and oerjan still drop in occasionally. A lot of other people have indeed disappeared over timew
23:41:43 <tslil> yeah, it turns out that that example for Tree is incorrect, but i've never gone back to fix it. I also think i can't now, as the email address with my account is gone. Or at least, i can't fix it as me
23:42:15 <tslil> int-e: cool! i'd love to say hi, so i think i'll hang around.
23:42:36 <tslil> ais523 helped me with my highschool homework, though i doubt he remembers
23:44:50 <fizzie> I think AnMaster (subsequently, Vorpal) also dropped by sometime last year, but didn't say anything.
23:44:52 <tslil> so actually, any idea who has admin priveleges over the Wiki and whether it would be possible to reclaim my account?
23:47:12 <fizzie> I don't suppose your account is associated with an email address that you've still got access to? The problem with that kind of thing is, it's hard to be principled about what level of proof of identity it needs, otherwise.
23:48:05 <tslil> right, i completely understand. There's a small chance i migrated it to an address i can still reach. I'll try that now
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23:49:14 <tslil> (in fact i was just wondering what, if anything, would constitute a proof of identity)
23:49:22 <fizzie> Well, your password recovery email just bounced.
23:50:02 <tslil> yeah, apparently i didn't have the foresight to change my listed address when i dropped that email account
23:51:04 <tslil> or, wait, bounced as in the email address was invalid, or bounced as in the email address i submitted was not linked to the account?
23:51:37 <fizzie> The former. Gmail says "The email account that you tried to reach does not exist". Hmm.
23:52:05 <tslil> Ah yes, this is the problem. I `deleted' my gmail account (inasmuch as google does that)
23:53:10 <tslil> anyway, i don't want to press you fizzie to compromise your morals or make an exception here, i completely understand the slippery slope. If there is something you'd be comfortable with i'd be happy to try, but otherwise don't worry :)
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23:53:31 <fizzie> It's kind of silly. I don't imagine identity fraud using esolangs.org wiki accounts is exactly top on anyone's list, but it'd be nice to have *some* sort of rationale.
23:53:55 <fizzie> Hmm, I guess your user page mentions "maximum_yellow", which does match your Freenode account name, that's kind of a data point.
23:54:37 <tslil> i can produce public keys, my academic website, maybe even references if oerjan/ais523/... rejoin
23:54:57 * int-e ponders registering a new gmail account right now just try to make a point :-P (I have no clue how google feels about reusing old email addresses... or about allowing gmail.com, for that matter)
23:55:18 <tslil> but i'm not sure that anything i do would ever be convincing, and i understand that
23:55:54 <int-e> (a likely looking address is in the logs)
23:56:01 <tslil> int-e: :) surely they must bar this, but who knows
23:56:07 <fizzie> I mean, I think it is pretty convincing, I just don't know where to put the threshold.
23:57:03 <int-e> 10 years of inactivity might lower the threshold
23:57:11 <tslil> well no rush fizzie, i plan to hang around for a while :)
23:57:32 <tslil> (as in, months/years to come)
23:57:36 <fizzie> Also it's not exactly a common name, I would say. So if you've got an email address that's sort of publicly on a official-looking web page, I could forward that password reset email there?
23:59:45 <tslil> well fizzie generously agreed after pointing to an academic institution webpage! woo! I can finally fix that incorrect example :p
00:01:21 <fizzie> Sent. Should be something titled "Account details on Esolang".
00:01:50 <fizzie> I am reminded by that one prisoner who freed himself by having a friend fax a convincing-looking letter from a copy shop, though.
00:03:05 <zzo38> Using digital signatures might help, if you added your public key to your user page from that user account, but if not, then that won't help.
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00:21:55 <tslil> fizzie: excellent, thanks again! I believe i have changed my email address :)
00:31:31 <esowiki> [[User:Hiato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82179&oldid=25996 * Hiato * (+104)
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00:36:05 <esowiki> [[Tree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82180&oldid=78380 * Hiato * (+194) 12 years later the second ``example'' becomes an example in earnest
00:36:45 <tslil> and there we have it, Tree finally has a control flow example, that i didn't write, 12 years after the fact :p
00:37:13 <int-e> trees take time to grow
00:46:15 <shachaf> Speaking of growing, I should get back to that game sometime.
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00:49:36 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, is resolution even closer to contraction than modus ponens is?
01:06:25 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82181&oldid=82087 * RocketRace * (+388) Clarify the behavior of subfinite loops
01:06:43 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82182&oldid=82181 * RocketRace * (-5) /* Subfinite loops */
01:09:52 <nakilon> "this channel was formative in my life choices and education"
01:10:05 <nakilon> did you chose to become a befunge programmer?
01:11:14 <nakilon> fungot do you speak Russian?
01:11:14 <fungot> nakilon: essentials of programming languages' in the new iteration can you use ' all yall'? that ' a'
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01:28:42 <fizzie> Based on a quick grep of a few Cyrillic characters, I think the wp style's the only one that might have some Russian words in it. (And I don't know if even that does, necessarily.)
01:30:30 <op_4> nakilon: i consider my area of mathematics to be rather close actually
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01:44:26 <b_jonas> op_4: 10 years ago? that's a long time
01:45:03 <b_jonas> (the scary part is that 10 years ago was in 2011, because we're solidly in the future)
01:47:16 <b_jonas> I wasn't on #esoteric yet 10 years ago
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02:03:09 * op_4 curses new keyboard
02:03:34 <op_4> b_jonas: yeah, i try not to think that it would take 21 years to get back to the 90's
02:03:50 <op_4> b_jonas: i doubt there's a too late, only generations
02:34:56 <zzo38> I have another idea of Magic: the Gathering card: {?} World Enchantment ;; Attacking creatures have flanking. ;; Blocking creatures have first strike. ;; When ~ dies, target creature gains haste and gets -2/-1 until end of turn.
02:36:37 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82183&oldid=82177 * Makonede * (+3)
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03:09:02 <esowiki> [[TSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82184&oldid=17339 * Hiato * (-6) Corrected an example for RWLR III
03:09:05 <pikhq> shachaf: growing's pretty fun. in some ways it's even more fun when you're older
03:09:51 <pikhq> op_4: oh huh, tslil, i think i recognize that name
03:10:45 <op_4> pikhq: i might recognise you too?
03:11:09 <pikhq> i've been less frequently here than in the past but i've been around since, uh, 2005
03:11:43 <op_4> great, then we definitely met! I think i was here starting around 2007 or so
03:12:29 <op_4> interesting that minor edits are also picked up by the bot, is there no way to avoid spamming the channel?
03:12:36 * op_4 is now embarrassed
03:12:51 <pikhq> oh i didn't realize, i've had that bot muted for aaages xd
03:13:37 <op_4> i hope i didn't make you feel old, it's just that 2007 feels *so long ago*
03:14:08 <pikhq> and yet also so recent
03:14:32 <pikhq> granted some of that is just cause so much of my 20s were less "succeeding" and more "randomly flailing"
03:16:21 <pikhq> just, took a while to get there
03:16:43 <op_4> ah yes, the phase i'm now. momentum had me taking a random walk through highschool -> undergrad -> masters -> phd but now ... ?
03:17:03 <pikhq> i dropped out of college twice and got my bachelors' the third attempt
03:17:05 <pikhq> different flailing
03:17:41 <op_4> different, but honestly i don't know that i've gone forwards in anything but time
03:18:03 <pikhq> understanding of the self, perhaps
03:18:10 <pikhq> i definitely have gone forwards on that
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03:18:48 <op_4> that's great, i'm happy to hear it. And anyway congratulations for going back to college and triumphing
03:19:26 <pikhq> i feel like google and then college is the _unusual_ route but hey
03:19:56 <op_4> oh, impressive, i didn't know the context :)
03:20:37 * pikhq damned well earned her math degree, that's for sure
03:21:51 <op_4> that's cool! i'm doing maths too
03:22:25 <op_4> but i suspect i'll end up doing programming for work
03:22:40 <pikhq> yeah, i'm back as a software engineer after that
03:23:08 <pikhq> happier and more successful one than i was before, tho that's partly for other reasons *shrug*
03:23:47 <op_4> i like research, but i just don't think i can continue teaching undergraduate courses. At least, the undergrads at my present institution and the courses i've TAd/taught have left me feeling burnt out on that
03:24:12 <op_4> pikhq: that's what i'm thinking. many of my friends went into tech stuff and they say the same things
03:25:48 <pikhq> honestly kinda hate the industry at large, but i think i feel okay about my current job
03:26:19 <pikhq> and i'm finally starting to feel like i have time for hobby things again :)
03:27:53 <op_4> oh, i'm sorry to hear that. Well at least you're finding time for yourself and ways to grow
03:28:32 <pikhq> got the new job in january, previous job was driving me to burnout
03:30:17 <pikhq> guess it happens tho. wasn't super optimistic about the long-term prospects there when i started, because, y'know, woman in tech :/
03:34:10 <op_4> bleh, that sucks :/
03:34:40 <op_4> are you optimistic about this new one?
03:34:53 <pikhq> So far it's been going very well :)
03:35:11 <shachaf> I started a new job last week and I can't yet make any statement about optimism.
03:35:33 <pikhq> takes at least a few months before you have enough lay of the land to make any concrete statements
03:36:23 <shachaf> Which is particularly bad if your job is in construction.
03:37:27 <esowiki> [[TSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82185&oldid=82184 * Hiato * (+252) added example of addition programme
03:37:33 <op_4> wow that bot is fast
03:37:44 <op_4> anyway, i'm off to bed, see you all around
03:37:50 <pikhq> my job's a healthcare related startup. not the sexiest tech-wise but it's not bad and i like it
03:38:34 <pikhq> i'll probably do the same
03:38:47 * pikhq suspects her wife is gonna be up for a bit *shrug*
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05:50:59 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82186&oldid=82154 * Olus2000 * (-14)
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07:24:54 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82187&oldid=82186 * Olus2000 * (+219) Grammar explanation overhaul
07:26:26 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82188&oldid=82187 * Olus2000 * (-9) /* Verb sentences */
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08:11:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82189&oldid=82106 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (-1) /* Aheui */ Reduction
08:15:05 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82190&oldid=82189 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+53) /* 4 */
08:29:05 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82191&oldid=82190 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+348) /* Shakespeare */
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14:44:50 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82192&oldid=82139 * Hakerh400 * (-3) /* Logical implication */
14:50:07 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82193&oldid=82192 * Hakerh400 * (+89) /* Division */
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17:34:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82194&oldid=82191 * Strohtaler * (+505) Zirconium
17:36:40 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82195&oldid=82194 * Strohtaler * (+5) /* Zirconium */
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18:23:16 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82196&oldid=81926 * Leothetechguy * (-135)
18:23:35 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82197&oldid=82196 * Leothetechguy * (+1)
18:26:38 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82198&oldid=82197 * Leothetechguy * (-2)
18:40:00 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82199&oldid=82198 * Leothetechguy * (-1)
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18:43:17 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82200&oldid=82199 * Leothetechguy * (+4)
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19:13:41 <esowiki> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82201&oldid=82200 * Leothetechguy * (-9)
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23:03:16 <op_4> (off topic) I don't suppose anyone here is familiar with the gemini protocol
23:08:05 <zzo38> I am familiar with it.
23:09:59 <zzo38> Do you have other questions?
23:11:20 <op_4> Hah, i do, but i'm now realising i could possibly answer this in part for myself.
23:12:11 <op_4> I was wondering why a particular client decided that my page title for my index.gmi page should be "<contents of H1> - <URL>". Specifically i was wondering whether there was something in the spec that specified page titles
23:12:19 <op_4> but i can just look at the spec i suppose
23:12:56 <zzo38> I believe the specification recommends that. However, a client could be implemented differently (e.g. using only the H1 title or only the URL).
23:13:34 <op_4> Great, thanks. Yeah, for some reason my client does only "<contents of H1>" for some pages, but not others.
23:14:17 <op_4> anyway, this is as good an excuse as any to poke around with server software :)
23:16:36 <zzo38> I dislike that it requires TLS. My suggestion is to add a new URI scheme for the insecure version, perhaps "insecure-gemini://" can be used. Error codes that specify that a client certificate is required is not allowed in this case; if a client certificate is required, then the secure version must be used.
23:17:47 <zzo38> (This would be an optional feature, of course; but sometimes it might be useful, e.g. for testing purposes.)
23:18:49 <op_4> that's an interesting and reasonable compromise idea
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23:53:48 <esowiki> [[Project Euler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82202 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+549) Create
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01:52:24 <esowiki> [[STOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82203&oldid=75117 * Mercerenies * (+38)
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03:44:36 <zzo38> Can you use hashes for random numbers? My idea is that the random number seed consists of two parts (which can contain arbitrary data), being the sequence number and the hash; use the hash of that as the random numbers, and then the next seed is the next sequence number (the initial sequence number can be any number, not necessarily zero) and the previous hash.
04:02:52 <imode> I don't see why not.
04:08:31 <zzo38> Does the method I suggested work?
04:36:08 <pikhq> that seems like it's basically just constructing a stream cipher out of a hash function?
04:37:04 <pikhq> while i wouldn't be confident without a cryptographer looking into it, there probably is an acceptable construction that looks something kind of like that
04:51:52 <zzo38> (The sequence number does not start at zero, because if it does, then it is possible to predict the random numbers.)
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06:18:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82204&oldid=81574 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+1873) /* C */
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07:08:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82205&oldid=82204 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+223) /* C */
07:10:38 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82206&oldid=81930 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+2129)
07:11:37 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82207&oldid=82206 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+17)
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10:59:27 <b_jonas> quick question. does git still only use sha-1 checksums, and how easy is it for a motivated attacker to mess up your repository by causing you to commit files with sha-1 collisions?
11:07:07 <fizzie> They did some sort of a pinpoint mitigation for the shattered.io attack that I forget the details of, but I don't think the more ambitious plan of moving entirely out of SHA-1 has happened yet.
11:08:03 <fizzie> https://git-scm.com/docs/hash-function-transition/ "Git v2.13.0 and later subsequently moved to a hardened SHA-1 implementation by default, which isn’t vulnerable to the SHAttered attack, but SHA-1 is still weak."
11:13:03 <b_jonas> I'm mostly asking because someone wants to use git for storing certain some data in the future, where I think it would be a bad idea to use git, not only because of the sha-1 but for other reasons too, and want to give arguments to change their mind
11:33:07 <nakilon> should use git if data is binary
11:34:06 <nakilon> has anyone of you ever seen the accidental md5 collision?
11:34:47 <nakilon> in your real projects, not brought to you by upvoted funny blog posts
11:35:32 <nakilon> (typo in my first message)
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14:17:33 <int-e> Ah puzzles. https://paste.debian.net/1193985/ :)
14:19:14 <nakilon> the "(X moves first)" is tautology here
14:19:26 <int-e> I know that it can be inferred :)
14:20:32 <int-e> though it's not *quite* tautological... in Othello, O might have had the first move, but been forced to pass
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14:22:37 <int-e> And it actually turns out that the shortest Reversi games are one move shorter than the shortest Othello games.
14:24:34 <int-e> because in these positions with O to move, the game just ends: https://paste.debian.net/1193986/
14:29:17 <int-e> I had to check Wikipedia on the precise rules.
14:30:48 <int-e> Finally resolving a bit of cognitive dissonance that I've been suffering for a few decades :-P (because I learned the Reversi rules as a kid, and then I played Othello a lot on Windows, and the fixed starting pattern as well as the passing rule felt kind of wrong)
14:35:49 <int-e> (A possible solution is https://paste.debian.net/1193987/ ...not sure how feasible this is without a computer. But I liked the diamond shape, that was unexpected.)
14:37:44 <fizzie> Out of those, I've just played Reversi on Windows 1.02. Not sure whether its exact rules match the name.
14:38:14 <nakilon> there was reversi on zx spectrum
14:38:37 <nakilon> actually there were all kinds of games with difficulty levels we couldn't beat
14:40:15 <fizzie> The Windows 1.02 version has a "Skill" level selector (Beginner/Novice/Expert/Master), but I've no idea which one (if any) I could beat.
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14:43:25 <nakilon> we had this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyDSL_iJx2o
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14:45:34 <nakilon> my favourite logic game on spectrum was...
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14:51:51 <nakilon> it was like reversi on hexagonal field
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14:52:41 <nakilon> and you have not to make more pieces of your color but fill more triangle sectors in between the hexagonal field lines
14:53:05 <nakilon> every time you surround a triangle you permanently draw it to your color
15:01:38 <nakilon> found it; the only video unfortunately https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7mtrim1u94
15:01:54 <nakilon> it does not show the second player to draw any triangles
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17:37:40 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82208&oldid=82188 * Olus2000 * (+22) /* Verb sentences */ kipisi argument description update
17:38:11 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82209&oldid=82208 * Olus2000 * (+6) /* Verb sentences */ grammar in kipisi description
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18:13:52 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82210&oldid=82183 * Makonede * (+82)
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22:02:48 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_raffle "Care must be taken with seafood trays given the propensity for the contents to spoil in the heat as the lucky winner continues drinking; often a friendly publican will store the tray in the fridge until the winner is sufficiently refreshed and ready to head home.[citation needed]"
22:02:53 <fizzie> Ah, Wikipedia, never change.
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00:11:34 <zzo38> One of my ideas of web browser is that extensions can be written in C or in JavaScript; they are not limited to only JavaScript. Another idea is cookie notification in the status line; if the user ignores it then the cookie is set (or not set, if cookies are disabled), but the user can push the keys to customize the cookies it just received.
00:11:51 <zzo38> (Cookies can also be edited later at any time.)
00:13:17 <zzo38> In Firefox, you can push ALT+ENTER in the location bar to open it in a new tab. With the relative location bar feature, this is useful, so this can be retained. And then, SHIFT+ENTER and CTRL+ENTER can be used for other things, such as to edit the request headers (and possibly make a POST request), or to bypass the cache.
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02:37:46 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82211&oldid=82210 * Makonede * (+21)
02:37:54 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82212&oldid=82211 * Makonede * (+2)
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05:32:11 <zzo38> I wrote a program to download a specified version of a program from a fossil repository: http://sprunge.us/IHCjWI
05:36:14 <zzo38> Maybe a mode should be added to verify a PGP signature.
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10:32:06 <fizzie> Hmm, MediaWiki 1.35 bundles Extension:VisualEditor now. Wonder if that'd be worth enabling.
10:47:03 <int-e> it might reduce the number of microedits a bit, and maybe people actually like it?
10:48:13 <int-e> and I'm reading between the lines that users can disable it if they hate it
10:49:10 <int-e> (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VisualEditor#Activating_VisualEditor_by_default ... assuming you don't do the $wgHiddenPrefs[] = 'visualeditor-enable'; thing, and why would you?)
10:49:33 <fizzie> Yeah, AIUI you can do it on an opt-in or an opt-out basis.
10:53:42 <int-e> I don't particularly care about the default. opt-out means people will actually try it out, while with opt-in it may not be used at all
10:55:04 <b_jonas> int-e: in the bubble I live in, most people hate the visual editor
10:55:32 <b_jonas> it's especially the users who clean up after newbies using the visual editor who hate it
10:56:54 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah, do you have an example of such a cleanup? (Not urgent, I'm just wondering what kind if things would get messed up.)
10:57:41 <int-e> I'm not doubting you, you're much more of a Mediawiki user than I am.
10:58:08 <b_jonas> I, of course, still don't like visual editors, as you may surmise from my old https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=789779
10:58:43 <int-e> I suspect I wouldn't like it either, but I'm happy enough if I have a knob to turn it off.
10:59:57 <int-e> I guess there's the Word effect when you have visual editors (where people format text with explicit newlines and spaces)
11:00:10 <int-e> (and also use every available markup at least once per page)
11:00:53 <int-e> But I'm speculating. Hence the desire to see an example. :)
11:01:02 <b_jonas> int-e https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128060 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T56947
11:01:19 <int-e> . o O ( phacebook )
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11:05:20 <b_jonas> of course there's sort of the other side of the spectrum from visual editors, which are these modern programs that take plain text input but try to apply too much magic formatting to it, like the IRC clients that replace :p with a smiley in std::pair. The latest such overeager one I met is https://superuser.com/q/1642304/
11:07:18 <fizzie> Google Chat converts ~foo~ to strikethrough formatting even when it's part of an autolinkified URL, which looks kind of funny because we have a somewhat frequently linked class of URLs that end in "XXX~YYY~ZZZ".
11:07:27 <int-e> (Of course this isn't a real problem with IRC... where you can just switch to a better client.)
11:07:49 <fizzie> IIRC, the link still works when clicked, but of course a plaintext copy-paste just makes it XXXYYYZZZ.
11:07:50 <int-e> Where "better" happens to mean "less smart".
11:08:49 <int-e> b_jonas: Of course those two phabricator reports in conjunction demonstrate why this is a hard problem.
11:09:10 <int-e> fizzie: Too Unicode
11:09:30 <fizzie> You have to use “smart” quotes with the word smart, it's a rule.
11:09:36 <int-e> b_jonas: Of course you'd never want to change [[2000]] to [[2000|2001]], but also, of course, you never want to change [[Beaver]] to [[Beavers]].
11:09:57 <int-e> fizzie: I suppose that's fair.
11:13:34 <esowiki> [[User:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82213&oldid=67187 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.35.1.
11:13:51 <fizzie> (I didn't enable that editor, at least yet, just did the upgrade.)
11:14:32 <fizzie> Also I got that version wrong, it's 1.35.2.
11:17:26 <int-e> fizzie: quick! to the time machine!
11:18:02 <int-e> fizzie: after all, you control the wiki database and 1/3 of the public logs
11:18:36 <int-e> fizzie: don't let that power go unabused
11:20:16 <fizzie> We have always been at war with Eastasia.
11:22:18 <int-e> that reminds me, I still haven't made any progress on detonating the Sun
11:22:21 <fizzie> I was trying to run rebuildFileCache.php (as I do after every upgrade, to pre-populate it), and it got to "Cached page 'Les Accents Français' (id 11695)..." but then choked up by exhausting the available memory and starting to swap. I don't know if it's the page after that (whatever it is), or just something more general like a memory leak.
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12:57:15 <esowiki> [[PREG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82214 * EZ132 * (+1432) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=PREG |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:EZ132]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |memsys=register based |class=:Category:Unknown computational class|..."
12:57:29 <esowiki> [[PREG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82215&oldid=82214 * EZ132 * (-29)
12:59:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82216&oldid=82168 * EZ132 * (+11) /* P */
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17:43:01 <zzo38> I don't like WYSIWYG editing and I disable the VisualEditor anyways. (What might help, though, is a new attribute for <textarea> to specify the expected format of the text; if understood by the client and enabled by the user, then it can do whatever the user has configured e.g. syntax highlighting, auto-completion, WYSIWYG, previewing, etc; this allows customization, and may also improve speed since it may be native code)
17:45:48 <zzo38> (If not implemented in the client but document scripts are enabled, they can be used instead, but they might be slower (since they aren't native code) and might not do what the end user wands.)
17:48:01 <zzo38> Another idea of web browser I have is script substitution. If the user installs a script to substitute for a specific script (either by URL or by hash), then it will use that script instead of the one specified in the document. This can work even if document scripts are disabled. If by hash and the integrity attribute is specified, then the script is not downloaded if there is a substitution, since the hash is already known.
17:48:28 <zzo38> (If the substitution is by URL, then the script is never downloaded.)
17:51:43 <zzo38> About hashes in git, well, fossil can use SHA-1 or SHA3-256. I also think I read somewhere that new versions of git might use SHA2-256. On my computer at least, the "sha1sum" program doesn't seem to have an option for a hardened implementation, and I don't know about if the Node.js crypto module has such an option either
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18:53:39 <fizzie> int-e: I feel it's probably some sort of a memory leak in the update script, and/or PHP itself. I restarted it from where it ended up at (there's an argument to specify the start page ID) and watched the free memory, and it went down in a linear fashion. Guess I'll just do it in chunks the next time or something.
18:55:16 <fizzie> (s/free/available/, strictly speaking.)
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19:31:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: check if it has any settings, maybe it caches a large amount of the database in memory or something
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01:53:30 <esowiki> [[Branch (Johnki)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82217 * HyperNeutrino * (+763) Copy /wiki/Branch so I can use it, since this language is dead and the wiki page is poorly formatted
01:55:26 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82218&oldid=48974 * HyperNeutrino * (-395) replace this page with an actually existing language
01:57:48 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82219&oldid=82218 * HyperNeutrino * (+510)
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02:12:51 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82220&oldid=82219 * HyperNeutrino * (+4669)
02:13:35 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82221&oldid=82220 * HyperNeutrino * (+28)
02:14:04 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82222&oldid=82221 * HyperNeutrino * (-39)
02:17:22 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82223&oldid=82222 * HyperNeutrino * (+409)
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02:23:34 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82224&oldid=82223 * HyperNeutrino * (+1620)
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02:25:38 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82225&oldid=82224 * HyperNeutrino * (+756)
02:27:44 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82226&oldid=82225 * HyperNeutrino * (+121)
02:32:05 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82227&oldid=82226 * HyperNeutrino * (+816)
02:32:19 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82228&oldid=82227 * HyperNeutrino * (+0)
02:32:44 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82229&oldid=82228 * HyperNeutrino * (+33)
02:34:20 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82230&oldid=82229 * HyperNeutrino * (+12)
02:35:25 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82231&oldid=82230 * HyperNeutrino * (-498)
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09:25:44 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82232&oldid=82209 * Olus2000 * (+6157) Added missing features and proof of turing-completeness
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09:31:59 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82233&oldid=82232 * Olus2000 * (+0) Correct "Turing complete" category
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12:44:35 <esowiki> [[PREG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82234&oldid=82215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Cats
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19:07:00 <myname> you maybe want to read the topic
19:08:26 <int-e> The phone is certainly named after the android series from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
19:10:40 <int-e> myname: let's see... No Man's Sky is an exploration survival game, so related to roguelikes, so basically almost on topic ;)
19:11:21 <myname> where did you pull no man's sky out of that question?
19:13:14 <int-e> Because my first random search landed on https://nomanssky.fandom.com/wiki/Nexus_(planet)
19:13:28 <int-e> I can't reproduce it anymore.
19:13:50 <myname> still kinda strange to join here to ask for game stuff, but okay
19:17:42 <int-e> myname: I have no clue what the OP meant, obviously.
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19:22:17 <myname> on the topic of roguelikes, any recommendable non-obvious terminal game?
19:54:19 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82235&oldid=82231 * HyperNeutrino * (+161)
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20:16:32 <nakilon> 14:07:27 <int-e> (Of course this isn't a real problem with IRC... where you can just switch to a better client.)
20:16:42 <nakilon> doesn't Hangout still have XMPP interface?
20:18:13 <nakilon> (so you can experience much larger variety of bugs in all those open source jabber clients)
20:42:37 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82236&oldid=82235 * HyperNeutrino * (+190)
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21:06:18 <fizzie> If "Hangout" referred to Google Hangouts, I'm pretty sure that's a no. Google Talk did (up to something like 2015), but Hangouts never did. (Hangouts is also being replaced by Chat.)
21:07:08 <myname> afaik it still has an xmpp interface
21:07:54 <myname> https://github.com/linuxcsuf/linuxcsuf/wiki/XMPP-with-Google-Hangouts
21:08:22 <esowiki> [[User:EZ132]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82237&oldid=80001 * EZ132 * (+98) /* Languages */
21:12:41 <fizzie> I'm moderately confident that was turned off at *some* point, though it did continue for a little while.
21:13:30 <myname> i am actually currently logged in, but i don't know if chatting actually works
21:13:50 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe it's still somewhat functional, who knows. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54988372/google-talk-over-xmpp suggests it was still there around 2019.
21:14:28 <fizzie> I'd be quite surprised if it will interop with Chat, at least.
21:15:36 <myname> i can see people coming online in my contacts
21:15:44 <fizzie> https://support.google.com/a/answer/4213661 "Classic Hangouts does not support the XMPP standard, including XMPP federation. However, third-party chat clients can continue to connect to the Google Talk network and also communicate in 1-on-1 chats with classic Hangouts through the Google Talk network."
21:15:53 <fizzie> Guess it does 1:1 chat and presence, then.
21:16:25 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82238&oldid=82236 * HyperNeutrino * (-130)
21:16:48 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82239&oldid=82238 * HyperNeutrino * (-1)
21:20:51 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82240&oldid=82239 * HyperNeutrino * (+1)
21:21:09 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82241&oldid=82240 * HyperNeutrino * (-9)
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21:36:36 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82242&oldid=82241 * HyperNeutrino * (-1523)
21:42:36 <esowiki> [[Cycle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82243 * EZ132 * (+8824) Created page with "'''Cycle''' is a stack-based programming language designed by [[User:EZ132]]. It was designed to be extremely simple, having only two types of commands, yet easy to program in..."
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21:53:25 <esowiki> [[ ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82244 * Hakerh400 * (+3382) Add new esolang
21:53:29 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82245&oldid=82216 * Hakerh400 * (+49) Add new esolang
21:53:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82246&oldid=82135 * Hakerh400 * (+49)
22:03:07 <esowiki> [[ ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82247&oldid=82244 * Hakerh400 * (-2)
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22:37:41 <esowiki> [[Template:Mono]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82248 * Icecream17 * (+145) Monospace template
22:39:13 <esowiki> [[Template:Mono/doc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82249 * Icecream17 * (+107) create docs
22:42:56 <esowiki> [[Template:Regex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82250 * Icecream17 * (+126) create regex template
22:44:39 <esowiki> [[Template:Regex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82251&oldid=82250 * Icecream17 * (+0) correct index
22:49:17 <esowiki> [[Template:Regex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82252&oldid=82251 * Icecream17 * (+8) use code instead of mono
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23:16:56 <esowiki> [[Branch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82253&oldid=82242 * HyperNeutrino * (-26)
23:40:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82254 * Qpliu * (+569) Created page with "For the evaluation of recursive functions to terminate, there has to be some short-circuit mechanism. * <code>a <= b</code> can short-circuit to 1 if <code>a</code> is zero *..."
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02:12:01 <esowiki> [[Semeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82255&oldid=81958 * Icecream17 * (-2764)
02:17:25 <esowiki> [[User:Hiato]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82256&oldid=82179 * Hiato * (-195) cleaned up things
02:22:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hiato]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82257&oldid=82256 * Hiato * (+146) contact details
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02:38:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Project Euler]]": Copyright violation: copied from external website
02:40:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82258 * Ais523 * (+355) warning about copyright violation
02:41:25 <esowiki> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82259&oldid=81881 * Ais523 * (-1083) rv changes by ColorfulGalaxy: copyright violation
02:41:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 2 revisions on page [[D]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
02:46:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Branch]]": temporary deletion for housekeeping: doing a partial history merge after a cut-and-paste move, and need to temporarily delete the page to do this
02:47:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[Branch]]": history merge: restoring revisions that should be merged
02:48:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Branch]] to [[Branch (Johnki)]]: history merge: moving the history after a cut-and-paste move
02:48:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Branch (Johnki)]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Branch]]"
02:48:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[Branch]]": history merge: restoring revisions that should not be merged
02:49:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[Branch (Johnki)]]": history merge: restoring the revision present after the cut-and-paste move
02:49:46 <esowiki> [[Branch (Johnki)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82261&oldid=82260 * Ais523 * (+157) set top revision after history merge
02:56:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:HyperNeutrino]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82262 * Ais523 * (+1111) how to move pages
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03:42:44 <zzo38> I wanted to write a program to convert levels from the DOS Vampire Tower format into Free Hero Mesh format. Am I strange for deciding that PostScript is the programming language to use for this?
03:43:26 <zzo38> (See http://sprunge.us/f9VgxB in case you are interested in the code)
03:44:33 <zzo38> I think on this IRC someone said that PostScript is both esoteric and non-esoteric programming language. Perhaps yes; in addition, it is also both general-purpose and domain-specific, and it is also both text-only and binary. What do you think?
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06:15:48 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82263&oldid=82182 * RocketRace * (+15) Allow surreal literals to push in arbitrary (numeric) forms
06:26:16 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82264&oldid=82263 * RocketRace * (+685) Forms vs surreal numbers
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08:19:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82265&oldid=82254 * Hakerh400 * (+1776)
08:22:13 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82266&oldid=82193 * Hakerh400 * (+102) /* Constant one */
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11:01:10 <myname> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/702263071854559243/833658196467515402/EzO1Sl6VkAESE_k.png
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12:20:36 <esowiki> [[Suptiftam/Library]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1015) Make the page
12:20:44 <esowiki> [[Suptiftam/Library]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82268&oldid=82267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) :
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12:28:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lyxal * New user account
12:29:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82269&oldid=82165 * Lyxal * (+182) Howdy y'all
12:30:33 <esowiki> [[User:Lyxal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82270 * Lyxal * (+83) Created page with "Yes. [[Keg]] [[Vyxal]] [[Minefriff]] [[Curlyfrick]] [[Keta]] Are all mine. Yes"
12:30:57 <esowiki> [[User:Lyxal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82271&oldid=82270 * Lyxal * (+0) If I could do good spelling that would be great
12:31:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sporeball]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82272&oldid=82027 * Lyxal * (+36) /* Frick */ new section
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15:42:29 <lambdabot> LOWI 191520Z 28003KT 230V340 9999 FEW050 SCT070 BKN090 11/01 Q1015 NOSIG
15:44:27 <op_4> int-e: what does that mean?
15:45:33 <int-e> it's a weather report. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR
15:48:21 <int-e> fungot: are transposition tables important in Othello game tree search?
15:48:21 <fungot> int-e: i'm also leaving for night soonish.
15:54:32 <b_jonas> in particular, "LOWI" is the airport code, "191520Z" is a timestamp in the unusual %d%H%M%z format, "11/01" is the current temperature and the temperature at which the air would be saturated with water vapor, I think "Q1015" gives the atmospheric pressure in some way, and the rest I don't remember, there's something in it about clouds and wind speed and direction
15:55:17 <int-e> air pressure at ground level is 101.5 kPa
15:55:38 <b_jonas> ground level? they give the air pressure at ground level in these reports, not sea level? fun
15:55:49 <b_jonas> but which one is the wind speed and direction?
15:55:51 <int-e> FEW/SCaTterred/BroKen are cloud densities; the numbers following ar in 1k feet units, IIRC
15:56:10 <int-e> 280 03KT is average direction and wind speed
15:56:28 <int-e> 230V340 is the interval in which the direction varies
15:57:08 <b_jonas> hmm, wasn't the wind direction measured in units of 10 degrees? I must have imagined that
15:57:34 <int-e> well there *are* 0s there.
15:57:47 <b_jonas> yes, but I mean the 0 would be omitted
15:57:53 <int-e> mayby you're confusing it with runway numbering though
15:58:03 <b_jonas> then "29003KT" must encode the wind speed somehow
15:58:17 <b_jonas> or perhaps the "V" itself does that?
15:58:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I added a space for readability
15:59:32 <lambdabot> KOAK 191553Z 24004KT 10SM SCT008 OVC010 11/08 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP210 T01060078
15:59:51 <b_jonas> ok, but then I still don't know what the wind speed is, because 29003 knots is unlikely
16:00:04 <b_jonas> probably encodes variable wind speed too somehow
16:00:12 <int-e> A3015 is probably pressure again but in a different unit, something mercury based maybe?
16:00:39 <int-e> b_jonas: the first three digits are the direction
16:00:55 <int-e> b_jonas: and it was 280, not 290
16:01:31 <b_jonas> isn't "230V340" the wind direction?
16:01:54 <int-e> well, one is the dominant/average wind direction, the other is an interval
16:02:03 <int-e> but yes, there is some redundancy
16:03:27 <lambdabot> LHBP 191430Z 08005KT 040V100 9999 FEW022 BKN080 10/05 Q1014 NOSIG
16:04:33 <lambdabot> EGLL 191550Z AUTO 08004KT 010V160 9999 NCD 17/01 Q1019
16:04:56 <HackEso> 2021-04-19 16:04:55.986 +0000 UTC April 19 Monday 2021-W16-1
16:05:17 <int-e> '"Nil Cloud detected" automated METAR station has not detected any cloud, either due to a lack of it, or due to an error in the sensors'
16:05:19 <b_jonas> the data is for ---19 14:30?
16:07:58 <int-e> b_jonas: mm actually, it's possible that I'm breaking the wind direction/speed thing incorrectly and it's actually 08 005KT.
16:10:10 <int-e> But no, apparently it is three digits but always rounded to the nearest 10 degrees. So that's in line with what you said earlier. (looking at http://meteocentre.com/doc/metar.html )
16:11:39 <b_jonas> I was just surprised that the data is an hour and a half old. I know the airport is barely used, there are very few flights due to global pandemic, but still.\
16:12:07 <int-e> op_4: anyway it's obscure and almost, but not quite, useless... I don't know who started it (there was a bot called metasepia by boily that had a metar command, but I don't know whose idea *that* was)... but it's a pretty good fit for the channel
16:12:59 <int-e> b_jonas: I have no idea how the data gets to aviationweather.gov where lambdabot gets it, but I assume there's some delay
16:13:29 <int-e> and I'm hoping that aircrafts approaching the airport get more current information :)
16:22:23 <b_jonas> ah yes, this channel has a rich history of strange bots
16:34:40 <b_jonas> I was recently reading the logs for when I first joined #esoteric . apparently one of the first things I've done was to show termbot.
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16:57:00 <op_4> int-e: ``obscure and almost, but not quite, useless'' a good fit indeed :)
17:17:01 <lambdabot> EGLL 191650Z AUTO VRB03KT 9999 NCD 16/02 Q1018
17:17:26 <fizzie> Oh, someone did that one already.
17:17:39 <fizzie> (Ridiculously good weather we're having.)
17:18:39 <HackEso> C \ C.UTF-8 \ en_GB.utf8 \ en_NZ.utf8 \ en_US.utf8 \ POSIX
17:22:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82273&oldid=82265 * Qpliu * (+353)
17:25:11 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
17:25:12 <HackEso> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
17:25:42 <b_jonas> so the first still uses NZ locale? I thought that got changed at some point
17:27:06 <fizzie> I think the first one's pretty simple, and ` innately uses en_NZ.
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17:27:27 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
17:28:00 <b_jonas> but I thought bin/\` got changed at some point to be more like bin/\`\`
17:28:33 <b_jonas> maybe that was just the other shell options
17:28:52 <b_jonas> I also wish these didn't have rnoodl on them
17:29:27 <b_jonas> `run echo -n $'one\ntwo'; sleep 9999
17:29:36 <b_jonas> `` echo -n $'three\nfour'; sleep 9999
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18:55:37 <op_4> who wants to do my work for me?
18:55:49 <op_4> any takers? :D
18:55:55 * op_4 doesn't want to work today
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19:16:37 <imode> depends on the work.
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19:40:36 <op_4> imode: writing an introduction for a paper?
19:49:46 <oerjan> int-e: seen girl genius yet?
19:50:29 <int-e> oerjan: I have. You're just too good.
19:51:08 <int-e> op_4: do you have the rest of the paper?
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19:56:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:OOLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82274&oldid=50180 * Rdococ * (+178)
19:58:14 <oerjan> <b_jonas> but I thought bin/\` got changed at some point to be more like bin/\`\` <-- the locale difference is to me the main one, so if that got changed there would hardly be a point of _having_ two commands.
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20:08:26 <zzo38> Is there a SASL mechanism with hashcash? I think that hashcash and CAPTCHA can be implemented as SASL mechanisms, and then SASL should be supported in HTTP(S) too.
20:09:57 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, me too I think the locale is the main reason it was set up like that
20:14:24 <int-e> `` locale | grep -v \"
20:14:25 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_ALL=
20:14:28 <int-e> ``` locale | grep -v \"
20:14:30 <HackEso> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_ALL=
20:20:35 <op_4> int-e: yeah, i do, but this is a collaboration and i came in late to do some technical work. I'm finding it really difficult to write the background and motivation for ideas i didn't have
20:29:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Rdococ * moved [[Harp]] to [[Harp (Archived)]]: I don't like what I've created here, and originally tried to just blank the page but moving it here is probably a better idea.
20:34:26 <esowiki> [[Harp (Archived)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82277&oldid=82275 * Rdococ * (+1524) Restored
20:36:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Rdococ * moved [[Upsilon]] to [[Upsilon (Archived)]]
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20:40:53 <esowiki> [[Upsilon (Archived)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82280&oldid=82278 * Rdococ * (+930) Restored for historical purposes (not that I think I'm making history or anything)
20:41:07 <esowiki> [[Upsilon (Archived)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82281&oldid=82280 * Rdococ * (+1)
20:43:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82282&oldid=69945 * Rdococ * (+357) /* Harp, Upsilon and Mindscrew */
20:46:30 <esowiki> [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82283&oldid=78555 * Rdococ * (+465)
20:47:15 <esowiki> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82284&oldid=82283 * Rdococ * (+39)
20:47:23 <esowiki> [[Branch (Johnki)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82285&oldid=82261 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Confusion, proper bold
20:47:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Rdococ * moved [[C()]] to [[C() (Archived)]]
20:47:55 <esowiki> [[Branch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82288&oldid=82253 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Confusion
20:48:02 <esowiki> [[Branch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82289&oldid=82288 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Typeo
20:58:23 <zzo38> Do you have 8x8 graphics for PC code pages and PC-like code pages (other than the default one, which I already have)?
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21:37:24 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82290&oldid=79363 * Rdococ * (+278) Risen from the ground, like a phoenix with brain damage.
21:44:01 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82291&oldid=82290 * Rdococ * (-92) Last edit was accidental, finished edit for now while I flesh out details
22:09:55 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82292&oldid=82291 * Rdococ * (+798) Added example
22:14:50 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82293&oldid=82292 * Rdococ * (+236) /* Examples */
22:17:14 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82294&oldid=82293 * Rdococ * (+303)
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22:29:53 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82295&oldid=82294 * Rdococ * (+95) /* Examples */ Improved Goldbach example
22:31:59 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82296&oldid=82295 * Rdococ * (+51) /* Data types */ Added limitations to integer type
22:33:44 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82297&oldid=82296 * Rdococ * (+13) /* Data types */ Added note about arrays
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23:09:19 <esowiki> [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82298&oldid=78165 * Rdococ * (+60)
23:13:37 <esowiki> [[Surreal FOREVER loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82299&oldid=58230 * Rdococ * (-27) Removed reference to Zeno. It has been limited to machines that can only perform hyperreal computations, not absolutely infinite ones, and thus may not apply here.
23:14:32 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82300&oldid=82297 * Rdococ * (+62) /* Data types */
23:22:40 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82301&oldid=82264 * RocketRace * (-2) What are invalid operations
23:24:14 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82302&oldid=82301 * RocketRace * (+16) Wording in intro
23:28:25 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82303&oldid=82302 * RocketRace * (+220) About --> Execution model
23:29:13 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82304&oldid=82303 * RocketRace * (+33) Clarify + can't elide its argument
23:31:36 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82305&oldid=82304 * RocketRace * (+196) The ~ operation
23:52:06 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82306&oldid=82305 * RocketRace * (+1338) A comprehensive fault model for operations
23:52:30 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82307&oldid=82306 * RocketRace * (+10) Faults header
23:54:34 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82308&oldid=82307 * RocketRace * (+95) Change subprocess EOF behavior
00:17:58 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82309&oldid=82308 * RocketRace * (+957) Deepen subfinite loops
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00:29:39 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82310&oldid=82309 * RocketRace * (+93) Example clarification
00:31:56 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82311&oldid=82310 * RocketRace * (+132) Get out of jail free
00:34:09 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82312&oldid=80387 * RocketRace * (-76)
00:50:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82313&oldid=81283 * Trump Bot * (+67)
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01:35:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82314&oldid=82245 * RocketRace * (+14) Subreal
01:52:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82315&oldid=82258 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+203) /* Copyright violations */
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02:05:45 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82316&oldid=81906 * RocketRace * (+967) Added truth machine, altered wording of echo program
02:06:15 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82317&oldid=82316 * RocketRace * (-8) Spacing
02:07:06 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82318&oldid=82317 * RocketRace * (+92) Clarify synth station whitespace policy
02:07:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82319&oldid=82205 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (-1047) /* C */
02:15:03 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82320&oldid=82318 * RocketRace * (+153) Unicode support in synth stations!
02:53:48 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have a cherry on top?
02:53:48 <fungot> b_jonas: that does seem intuitively impossible for you to ever need to pass
02:54:11 <b_jonas> how about cream on top then?
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03:13:51 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82321&oldid=82312 * RocketRace * (+84)
03:48:18 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82322&oldid=75123 * Quintopia * (+61) correction
03:56:07 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82323&oldid=82322 * Quintopia * (+14) correction
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04:44:38 <zzo38> I wanted the 8x8 font for code page 852 in order to implement the Berusky game in Free Hero Mesh. (Later, other code pages can also be added.)
04:45:09 <zzo38> The text in the game seems to be written without diacritics, although it look like Czech language should be written properly including diacritics, isn't it?
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08:35:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82324&oldid=82319 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+1033) /* C */
08:41:57 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82325&oldid=82207 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+563) /* Pokebattle */ Reduction from 27 turns to 26 turns, using 4 pokemons instead of 3
10:00:56 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82326&oldid=82325 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (-3) /* Pokebattle */ Minor bug fix
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13:02:59 <b_jonas> Modern desktop computers come in a nice metal case that protects them from harm and also acts as a radiation shield, like the exoskeleton of an arthropod. Many other electronics instead have a hard plastic case, and there's a separate inner metal plate or film next to the PCB as radiation shielding, like the spine of a vertebrate. Fungot, are you an arthropod or a vertebrate?
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16:29:34 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82327&oldid=82300 * Rdococ * (+92) Added finite value types as they are still useful
16:35:24 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82328&oldid=82327 * Rdococ * (+364)
16:48:12 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82329&oldid=82328 * Rdococ * (+379) Added more information about the machine Zeno is designed for
16:49:56 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82330&oldid=82329 * Rdococ * (+10) /* The Machine */ Distinguished finite memory words from infinite words
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17:00:21 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82331&oldid=82330 * Rdococ * (+177)
17:00:33 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82332&oldid=82331 * Rdococ * (-1)
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19:25:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82333&oldid=82269 * WallGraffiti * (+361) /* Introductions */
19:51:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82334&oldid=82333 * Sech1p * (+292)
19:54:36 <zzo38> I found some 8x8 fonts in the FreeBSD files, for code page 437, 850, 855, 856, and 1125, but not 852. (The files are uuencoded, but when decoding them it looks to be in the format I needed.)
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20:50:29 <myname> if you look for the empty string in google play, you will find results for "unicorn". and it seems to be hardcoded
21:01:18 <fizzie> Heh, gotta wonder if that's intentional or not.
21:04:05 <fizzie> Doesn't seem to work in the app (tapping search without typing anything in just doesn't do anything), only on the wobsite.
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23:38:35 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82335&oldid=82320 * RocketRace * (+13) overlapping "but separate"
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02:07:47 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82336&oldid=82326 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+334) /* Aheui */ 52 cell program
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06:17:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82337&oldid=82324 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+65) /* C */
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06:59:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82338&oldid=82336 * Salpynx * (-46) /* AIV */ boring, but accurate.
07:13:18 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82339&oldid=79695 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+191) /* Hello world */
07:14:47 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82340&oldid=82338 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+192) /* !@#$%^&*()_+ */ Letterless version
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08:00:13 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82341&oldid=82233 * Olus2000 * (+316) Added open and corrected verb arguments
08:01:40 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82342&oldid=82341 * Olus2000 * (+7) unclosed <code> (I swear I will remember to use the preview function at some point)
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08:20:12 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82343&oldid=82342 * Olus2000 * (-16) /* Computational class */ updated proof to new verb specs
08:45:30 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82344&oldid=82343 * Olus2000 * (+354) /* Verb sentences */ actually added open now.
08:46:17 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82345&oldid=82344 * Olus2000 * (+1)
09:00:29 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82346&oldid=82345 * Olus2000 * (+189) /* Verb sentences */ Added verb pini
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14:10:34 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82347&oldid=82161 * RetroPain * (+4)
14:11:22 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82348&oldid=82347 * RetroPain * (+21) /* Truth-machine */
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15:28:37 <esowiki> [[Undocumented]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82349 * Hakerh400 * (+1872) +[[Undocumented]]
15:28:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82350&oldid=82314 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Undocumented]]
15:28:43 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82351&oldid=82246 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Undocumented]]
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16:49:56 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82352&oldid=81955 * Zero player rodent * (-5)
16:50:23 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82353&oldid=82084 * Zero player rodent * (-48)
16:53:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82354&oldid=82350 * Zero player rodent * (+15)
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16:54:26 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82355&oldid=81957 * Zero player rodent * (-48)
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17:06:14 <esowiki> [[FAsm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82356 * WallGraffiti * (+877) Created Page
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17:16:10 <esowiki> [[FAsm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82357&oldid=82356 * WallGraffiti * (+8)
17:16:31 <esowiki> [[FAsm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82358&oldid=82357 * WallGraffiti * (+0)
18:24:36 <nakilon> *and I don't know how to even investigate what's wrong
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18:25:46 <nakilon> if I move the mouse cursor slowly I see that after random periods of time (1 sec in average) it lags and jumps across a few dozens of pixels
18:27:02 <nakilon> I believe it can be not only a mouse but the whole image on screen and that fixing that would make my fast paced gaming results better I suppose
18:27:23 <nakilon> but I have no idea what can be the cause
18:27:39 <fizzie> I had that happen with a Bluetooth mouse with radio interference once, but that's probably not exactly the maximum-likelihood hypothesis.
18:28:29 <fizzie> (As for whether it's on the input or the output side, I guess you could run something that has a smooth animation, and see if that has a similar lag.)
18:28:48 <nakilon> it's wired, USB; and the USB port isn't used much -- only a mouse and headphones
18:33:16 <nakilon> I started a bit of coding in the game Mindustry today -- adding some logic to enabling and disabling the conveyors appeared to be very helpful
18:53:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Prashanth Kunar * New user account
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21:57:01 <zzo38> What about predators and scavengers and xentonality?
21:58:45 <Chickie> its nice to know there are other patton fans here
22:27:06 <arseniiv> zzo38: I like xentonality, it’s an unbounded world. Here’s one 22-edo composition by Sevish I like much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9wINwlgxRU
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23:58:03 <esowiki> [[FAsm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82359&oldid=82358 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* External links */ Cats
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00:49:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82360&oldid=82313 * Trump Bot * (+115)
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01:57:27 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82361&oldid=82340 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+202) /* Befunge */ Letterless version
02:04:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82362&oldid=82195 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (-1) /* Aheui */ Reduced from 2 lines to 1 line. It could even be further reduced to 6 cells, but no such programs have yet been discovered.
02:23:12 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82363&oldid=82361 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+732) /* Befunk */ 22 cells. Sorry, I can't upload pictures
03:10:18 <HackEso> 1/2:cyberiad//The Cyberiad is not just a book. It's an M&S book. \ something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now. \ ioccclist//ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news \ hice//Hice is the plural form of house. \ lie algebra//A Lie algebra is what
03:10:20 <HackEso> 2/2: you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
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03:59:17 <shachaf> I'm infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group, unfortunately.
03:59:29 <shachaf> So close, and yet so close.
04:09:18 * oerjan observes shachaf through a microscope
04:09:50 * oerjan adds a drop of nitroglycerin and stirs
04:17:41 <pikhq> i'm just having a chill evening after work
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07:39:30 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82364&oldid=81116 * Voltage2007 * (-209)
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08:17:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Befunk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82365 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+374) Questions
08:20:03 <esowiki> [[Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82366&oldid=82156 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+684) /* Examples */ Hello World
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09:21:22 <esowiki> [[Befunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82367&oldid=82366 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+95)
09:22:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82368&oldid=82365 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+18)
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12:22:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82369&oldid=82363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* Befunge */ Does not use `v`
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14:27:00 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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15:49:19 <b_jonas> thanks, HackEso. thackEso.
15:52:45 <nakilon> is there a reason why we don't make articles on artifical video game languages?
15:53:17 <nakilon> like all the Zach games or Mindustry that I play now
15:54:32 <nakilon> here is the AI I made for example https://dpaste.org/z1Qq/slim
15:55:42 <Taneb> Hmm, I think there's a distinction between an esoteric programming language and one with limited applications, like you have in games
15:55:44 <int-e> they tend to be well (enough) documented inside the respective game, and mostly not too interesting
15:55:47 <Taneb> Some are certainly both
15:56:11 <nakilon> while basically game allows to either switch all the units you produce to go attack immediately or to rest at your base, this program makes them gather in a pack until they reach number 8, then all attack and retreat again if some of them die
15:56:33 <Taneb> TIS-1000 might be a fit on esolangs, the other Zachtronics games that I've played less so
15:56:40 <int-e> On the other hand, some games are accidentally TC and make it on the wiki: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baba_Is_You
15:57:12 <nakilon> Taneb yep, TIS-100 is the candidate I'm thinking about the most
15:57:28 <int-e> And yet, TIS-100 is *made* for programming.
15:57:55 <Taneb> It is made for programming, but to be distinctly unconventional
15:58:03 <int-e> Is it allowed on the wiki... sure. But I think there are reasons why nobody has bothered yet.
15:59:15 <int-e> I'm actually uncertain about the licensing side of this. I guess describing the pure language is fine, but screenshots may already be tricky?
15:59:42 <nakilon> "they tend to be well (enough) documented inside the respective game" -- those official docs are often read-only, not community driven, and so people make additional manuals on reddit, in their homepages, etc.
16:00:12 <Taneb> I think Opus Magnum is (or might be?) unintentionally turing complete
16:00:15 <int-e> I play those games to figure things out myself :P
16:01:19 <int-e> box-256 with its crazy threading and memory model felt far more esoteric than any of the zachtronics languages I've seen
16:02:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: you can absolutely make such an article. I think I created one on OpenTTD; I might create one for the games that I have played recently, which have some built-in computation with a somewhat interesting model
16:03:52 <b_jonas> "accidentally TC"? Baba Is You being TC isn't even that surprising, I'm not sure you can call it an accident.
16:04:04 <b_jonas> Baba Is You is clearly a programming game
16:04:13 <b_jonas> it doesn't even disguise that
16:04:41 <int-e> b_jonas: it does disguise itself as a puzzle game
16:04:51 <int-e> b_jonas: a Zachtronics game
16:05:13 <b_jonas> int-e: well of course, Baba is You should have a goal, and puzzles are often the best thing to add
16:05:37 <b_jonas> you can make games that don't specifically have puzzles, you just have to figure out how to use the mechanics effectively
16:05:44 <b_jonas> but some have specific puzzles designed in
16:05:58 <b_jonas> OpenTTD does not have these extra puzzles
16:10:56 <int-e> b_jonas: in any case I'm not convinced that Baba is You is deliberately TC. It obviously is designed to be programmable, but you can get a lot of puzzles out of plain finite state machines.
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16:24:38 <nakilon> b_jonas isn't OpenTTD just Squirel?
16:47:48 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82370&oldid=80081 * Tape * (+16) /* Clamp */
16:48:15 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82371&oldid=82370 * Tape * (+0) /* Math */
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16:58:07 <b_jonas> nakilon: what is a squirel? there doesn't seem to be a wiki entry
16:59:13 <b_jonas> int-e: it might not be deliberately TC, but it's deliberately programmable, and does not have any deliberate restrictions to curtail TCness, eg. it lets all entities move at the same time, lets you spawn any number of the same entity on the same square, there isn't a resource system where creating entities costs you something, etc
17:00:09 <b_jonas> is Baba is You known to be TC on a finite map by the way?
17:00:31 <int-e> I thought there was a Minsky machine
17:00:48 <int-e> which would mean yes.
17:01:44 <b_jonas> int-e: do you have a link or something? I'm curious now
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17:01:56 <b_jonas> I expect that such a thing should exist, but I wonder if someone explicitly proved it
17:03:07 <int-e> I don't have a link at hand. Hence "I thought" rather than the claim and a supporting link :P
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17:29:11 <zzo38> There are some good feature that were supposed to be in HTML, CSS, HTTP, etc, but the features that are usually implemented are usually the bad ones instead.
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17:56:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82372&oldid=78577 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Data types */ Type the data
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18:20:54 <nakilon> https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Development/Script/Squirrel
18:21:21 <nakilon> but maybe you was saying about railroad signs logic
18:25:06 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel_%28programming_language%29
18:25:07 <nakilon> http://www.squirrel-lang.org/
18:27:26 <nakilon> IIRC I used Squirrel for procedural generation in my CS:GO map https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1332505502
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18:45:42 <periish[m]1> would anyone here define colorforth as an esoteric language, and why? if not, why not?
18:46:09 <imode> funny you say that.
18:46:30 <imode> had a member of the ISO C++ committee argue, long ago, that forth in general was an esoteric language because it's niche and ultimately not widely used.
18:47:04 <imode> by that extension COBOL is esoteric, so..
18:47:23 <zzo38> Was that as part of the C++ committee, or just someone who happened to be a member, arguing independently?
18:47:40 <imode> I _wish_ it was an official statement.
18:47:49 <imode> was just a dude who I hung out with.
18:47:55 <imode> acting independently.
18:48:21 <imode> would've loved to see the standards committee shit-talk forth hobbyists.
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18:48:59 <zzo38> I think somone else on this IRC once mentioned that PostScript is both esoteric and non-esoteric at the same time, and I think that might be about right (it is also general-purpose and domain-specific at the same time, and text and binary at the same time).
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18:49:36 <zzo38> What do you think?
18:49:45 <b_jonas> I don't think that statement would be in-scope for the committee, unless perhaps they want to define a standard for interoperation between that language and C++
18:50:06 <b_jonas> fungot, at what temperature is revenge best served?
18:50:06 <fungot> b_jonas: 2. if the callframe isn't held somewhere, either in scheme, thats y, i get really frustrated with its limitations. the reader can't possibly detect that reasonably, and the
18:50:17 <b_jonas> fungot: celsius or fahrenheit?
18:50:17 <fungot> b_jonas: ( but they're already in scope. i dont believe at microsoft research. aaaaand, guess what, they were already cool, because i'll be doing something *completely* wrong
18:50:43 <b_jonas> "cool", not cold. I assume it's celsius then.
18:52:03 <imode> I guess it depends on your interpretation of the definition of esoteric.
18:52:12 <zzo38> Neither would I, but there may be some interest to some esoteric programmers
18:52:20 <imode> "understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest"
18:52:31 <imode> I'd call Forth esoteric by that definition.
18:52:38 <imode> RPN langs in general, I guess.
18:52:41 <zzo38> (Also, I think I read somewhere that the inventor of INTERCAL programs in PostScript; of course, that has nothing to do with being esoteric or not)
18:52:58 <imode> most of the general programming population are not forth users.
18:53:17 <periish[m]1> that is true of most minority languages, yes
18:53:27 <imode> yeah, hence why I said COBOL is technically esoteric.
18:53:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: I assume that was after he invented Intercal, because Postscript is a newer language
18:54:05 <b_jonas> I have exactly one interesting program in postscript, http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/catalan.ps , and I don't think I'll ever write another one
18:54:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, probably.
18:54:32 <imode> I like PostScript. but I like my language more.
18:54:45 <periish[m]1> the thing is, its hard to present something like forth and scheme as esoteric by that definition because they dont really.. close themselves off?
18:55:23 <imode> if you narrow that definition by excluding one of the 'or' clauses, it's "understood by the select few who have interest".
18:56:01 <imode> so, you could make the argument.
18:56:10 <imode> I don't like the argument, but you could make it.
18:57:14 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> is Baba is You known to be TC on a finite map by the way? => wait, how, wouldn’t all possible states a finite set in this case?..
18:57:34 <arseniiv> (I haven’t finished the game yet, still, though)
18:57:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can have multiples of the same entity on a square. and I think you can push or destroy one in some way.
18:57:52 <imode> you can have multiples of the same entity on a square?!
18:59:11 <imode> yeah that'd be TC if you could push and pop from at least two stacks conditionally form a tape and you're done.
18:59:16 <arseniiv> <periish[m]1> would anyone here define colorforth as an esoteric language, and why? if not, why not? => I would say it’s definitely esoteric even though I’m not too versed in forth and colorforth (but I’ve investigated concatenative programming languages and I heard about colorforth a small deal)
18:59:51 <zzo38> I would think that it would be difficult to see in such a case unless there is some sort of inspection menu (like Free Hero Mesh has)
19:00:32 <arseniiv> <imode> by that extension COBOL is esoteric, so.. => wait how nononononono it shouldn’t, esoteric languages should be at least quite fun and not corporative
19:01:07 <imode> arseniiv: it hurts, but it's true. :(
19:01:36 <zzo38> Also, there might be the case for some things to be called "quasi-esoteric", although, it is unsure.
19:01:46 <b_jonas> what do you mean? BANCStar is clearly commercial and still counts as esoteric
19:02:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can have multiples of the same entity on a square. and I think you can push or destroy one in some way. => thanks! Yep indeed now I remember a couple of clipping situations, though it would be interesting to know how to remove exactly one of entities
19:03:18 <b_jonas> perhaps you can't *push* one off, but I think you can destroy one
19:03:36 <zzo38> Also see the prehistory of esoteric programming.
19:03:39 <b_jonas> and add one, and check if there's at least one left, which should be enough, if you get some control structures working
19:03:49 <imode> question is, is it a bug, or is it a feature.
19:04:07 <imode> if it's a bug would it be right to call baba is you turing complete, or a particular version of baba is you turing complete when/if the bug is fixed.
19:04:13 <arseniiv> <imode> arseniiv: it hurts, but it's true. :( => I think now it’s time to devise an arith… esoteric hierarchy. Like, sum languages, product languages and delta languages which no one understands what that means
19:04:39 <imode> arseniiv: fun languages.
19:05:40 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> what do you mean? => commerce kills fun! I have a signed evidence somewhere in an imaginary room
19:06:29 <arseniiv> <imode> question is, is it a bug, or is it a feature. => I think I remember one puzzle requiring that clipping/stacking of entities
19:07:39 <zzo38> Does Baba Is You have an inspection menu like Free Hero Mesh has, or anything else that would allow to see what it is (e.g. displaying a number in the grid if there is more than one)?
19:07:57 <arseniiv> I have a sweet spot for Minsky machines and my generalized kind of them, and someone not from here gave me an idea to write a story book about them. But I don’t know what story that could be
19:08:54 <arseniiv> zzo38: if there’s no new stuff in the level editor (which I haven’t seen yet) then probably no
19:09:08 <imode> I take it you prefer the 2-register minsky machine
19:09:49 <arseniiv> I like to use an arbitrary inductive family of polynomial types instead of just Nat = S | Z Nat
19:10:03 <arseniiv> Nat = Z | S Nat, sorry of course
19:10:08 <zzo38> One nonstandard feature I often use when programming in PostScript is the possibility to read command-line arguments, which is implemented in Ghostscript by defining a array named ARGUMENTS which has the command-line arguments.
19:11:05 <arseniiv> like you can have { Even = Z | S1 Odd; Odd = S2 Even } or { Nat = Z | S Nat; List = Nil | Cons Nat List } or binary naturals or something else
19:11:06 <zzo38> (And, it is a feature I would want to standardize in the next version of PostScript, which if official would be called "level 4 PostScript", but since it isn't, I should call it "Computer PostScript".)
19:12:04 <arseniiv> very versatile, and you can just as easily generalize the recursive function formalism to that too, so they remain in step with each other. For me this is really neat I can’t get over it
19:12:35 <b_jonas> "an arbitrary inductive family of polynomial types" => at which point they're not just Minsky machines, they're at *least* stack machines
19:12:44 <b_jonas> possibly more, because they could manipulate trees too
19:13:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: but I think Nat is a stack of elements, we just can’t discern them
19:14:00 <arseniiv> though I agree they can be classified any way which would make sense
19:14:01 <imode> what you're telling me is that everything is all linear media.
19:14:31 <zzo38> What kind of features would you want to add/change in PostScript? (I have many ideas myself, including removing a small number of things that are in level 3 PostScript, which would not be applicable to Computer PostScript, such as the system parameter to count the total number of pages ever printed, which is only applicable on printers, not on the computer)
19:14:35 <imode> in a tape/stack sense.
19:14:47 <imode> zzo38: custom syntax would be nice.
19:15:28 <arseniiv> ah, then I don’t know what is a linear medium/a
19:15:29 <zzo38> imode: Can you give an example? You can already read arbitrary text inline from the source file by using the "currentfile" operator
19:16:19 <imode> arseniiv: basically anything that can be expressed/is-a linear sequence.
19:18:47 <arseniiv> I think it’s also neat that as easily we can have a generalized Minsky machine for { Bool = False | True } and that would be just a finite state machine which is not TC, but also we can have all those TC machines. Though then it’s just those two: either TC or functions between finite sets, nothing inbetween nor anything more than TC
19:19:42 <imode> wouldn't that generalized minsky machine just be a finite state machine with different kinds of memory.
19:21:40 <arseniiv> imode: hmmm. Well at least we know many countable sets don’t have a computable bijection with ℕ so they aren’t necessary a sets of sequences; also for many sets that do, there are no natural computable bijections so we have full rights to treat them as having their own structure which is not related to ℕ. For example all those types like lists of nats or pairs of nats or whatever
19:22:37 <imode> arseniiv: I can't read that glyph, is that R?
19:22:37 <arseniiv> <imode> wouldn't that generalized minsky machine just be a finite state machine with different kinds of memory. => I think in general only if you can say that about the usual Minsky machine (I don’t know)
19:23:33 <arseniiv> it displays in my IRC client in a strange manner, I don’t know what font substitution black magic is there
19:24:03 <arseniiv> so I better abstain from using it, then
19:25:23 <arseniiv> imode: there is a technical description of GM machines on the wiki, I placed it somewhere, I’ll post a link, though my descriptions are too dense usually
19:26:06 <arseniiv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Generalized_Minsky_machine
19:29:07 <imode> that still implies a data structure with a successor/predecessor operation.
19:45:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82373&oldid=82372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+836) Put more things onto the page
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20:08:52 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82374&oldid=82045 * Zzo38 * (+169)
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22:26:09 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: shocking. <-- it made sense in context. well, to me anyway.
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22:28:48 <HackEso> black pepper \ -(10 oz) orange juice \ 1 ts Cornstarch \ 1/2 ts Cayenne pepper \ 1/2 ts Pepper \ 3 tb Granulated sugar \ 2 c Canned peaches, drained \ - minced \ 2 ts Baking soda \ 8 oz Green onions \ \ Combine flour and butter or cooking spray. Topped: Cook beef and peppers. \ Cool completely. \ \ Preheat oven to 375F. To cool completely onto prepared cheesecloth. Cover and simmer for 30 minutes, until \ all ingredients are d
22:29:08 <b_jonas> peaches with onion, pepper and more pepper?
22:30:38 <fizzie> Isn't it a sort of a gauze-like fabric?
22:30:47 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some subtle difference.
22:31:27 <fizzie> You can use it as a filter to strain things, I think. I don't think it makes too much sense in that context.
22:33:22 <fizzie> For some reason I always associate "mince" with meat, which makes the mince pies they eat here at Christmas always sound a little odd. (Also, I don't like the taste at all.)
22:34:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.24487
22:34:48 <fizzie> I was hoping the formatting would be better, but it really wasn't all *that* much.
22:35:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, but if it had meat, then it would sound odd because you associate "pie" with fruits and flour-based light dough
22:37:09 <fizzie> They do a lot of meat-based pies here too. Steak and ale pies and so on.
22:37:56 <fizzie> And of course shepherd's pie and cottage pie, neither of which has *anything* to do with an actual pie.
22:38:34 <b_jonas> yeah, the British have all sorts of strange food names, like "pudding" that has meat
22:39:03 <b_jonas> not that our food names are better
22:39:07 <b_jonas> I'm just more used to them
22:39:10 <fizzie> Shepherd's / cottage pie is a dish that's got lamb or minced beef on the bottom together with carrots and such, and then it's covered with mashed potatoes.
22:39:26 <fizzie> I guess it looks vaguely pie-ish when it comes out of the oven.
23:39:29 <zzo38> I read that someone made a blank page in Microsoft Word and converted it to PDF, and it is twelve kilobytes. Why does it need twelve kilobytes for just one blank page? I did the same on my computer with Ghostscript and it is only two kilobytes long (approximately)
23:46:56 <zzo38> Does Microsoft Word add some stuff extra that Ghostscript doesn't add?
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00:15:04 <HackEso> In a large bowl, combine flour, 1 fat for \ peppercorns, tomato paste and salt in a large bowl. Sprinkle \ more or cold water; beat together cookie sheets. Beat in Egg; \ Cut in small ball of the brown sugar in the bowl. Fill the \ cacaof and or steaming, or should be for a mortar. Then add the sugar and \ saute onion and salt and pepper. Beat the olives or lettuce, \ onions,peppy chiles, salt, and blend all ingredients. Season cream
00:16:47 <zzo38> Are you going to cook any of those recipes? (Although, there are some problems with it, such as they don't tell you how much flour, tomato paste, salt, etc)
00:19:56 <kmc> it would be... interesting
00:20:24 <kmc> i can imagine a beef and peach pie being good
00:20:32 <kmc> but you would need to be careful about the other ingredients
00:21:57 <kmc> yes, cheesecloth is a cotton cloth used for straining solids and squeezing out liquids
00:22:00 <kmc> such as when making cheese
00:22:05 <kmc> or cannabutter :3
00:23:21 <kmc> b_jonas: what's extra weird is the British use of "pudding" to mean dessert in general
00:23:29 <kmc> as in "how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat"
00:23:35 <kmc> in this case meat pudding is not pudding!
00:28:27 <zzo38> Yes, some words have more than one meaning, and sometimes that is confusing.
00:46:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82375&oldid=82315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+269) /* Copyright violations */ Make reply
00:47:57 <zzo38> One idea of HTML is to allow an optional AUTH attribute for any <FORM> and <A>; if specified, it specifies the authentication method to use, and other information that is required for that method to work. It can safely be ignored; it is there in order that it can optionally be handled as a part of the form, before it is submitted, but if it is ignored, it will be handled once the reponse is received.
00:49:21 <zzo38> I saw mention of a command to group multiple headings together; I don't know if any software implements this, but, with my idea of a table of contents window, it could be used (if grouping is enabled by the user) to display the heading and subheading on one line if that it applicable to the structure of the document.
00:58:18 <zzo38> (Many of my ideas, together, involve some things that probably cannot be done with existing engines unless a lot of modifications are made.)
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03:39:10 <pikhq> what if meat pudding, pudding
05:36:30 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82376&oldid=81521 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+13)
05:49:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82377&oldid=82362 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+539) /* Befunk */ 10 cells within 2 lines. Sorry, I haven't learnt how to put pictures here. Not sure if working
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12:29:06 <nakilon> I think the "esoteric" should mean "has features that made the language harder to use on purpose"
12:30:45 <nakilon> (while the esolang wiki does not focus on such definition to chose which langauges to document)
12:31:50 <nakilon> by my definition asm and dc aren't esoteric while befunge and TIS-100 are
12:32:47 <Tape> Where would I put a page for the Wireworld Computer (https://www.quinapalus.com/wi-index.html)?
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14:55:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Amqzon * New user account
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14:59:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82380&oldid=82334 * Amqzon * (+163) added my welcome message :)
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16:47:57 <zzo38> I like the existing definitions for esoteric programming found in Wikipedia ("designed to test the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, as software art, as a hacking interface to another language (particularly functional programming or procedural programming languages), or as a joke") and esolang wiki ("experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical us
16:48:27 <zzo38> These definitions might be perhaps a bit incomplete, and it might not always be as clear as a simple definition like that, but it works for now.
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17:00:48 <b_jonas> fungot, what do you call a map whose square is the identity?
17:00:49 <fungot> b_jonas: ( file fnord scheme)." at work.
17:01:39 <kmc> I wasn't sure whether Qoppa qualifies as esoteric but it does according to the Wikipedia definition (first two clauses in particular)
17:02:21 <kmc> it's not deliberately hard to use, or deliberately complicated
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17:02:28 <kmc> but then again neither is Brainfuck
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17:24:27 <zzo38> I don't know how to make up a better definition.
17:24:47 <kmc> "I know it when I see it"
17:25:17 <kmc> there are also programming languages that unintentionally have esoteric qualities
17:25:36 <kmc> or things that function as esoteric languages that were never intended to be programming languages at all
17:25:51 <zzo38> "I know it when I see it" can be unclear too, and not always in agreement. But, yes, there are programming languages that unintentionally have esoteric qualities, and things that function as esoteric languages that were never intended to be programming languages at all, too.
17:26:02 <kmc> C++ is the former, C++ templates are the latter :P
17:27:40 <imode> the difference between the "good" esoteric definition and the "bad" esoteric definition is aesthetic.
17:28:04 <imode> an esoteric aesthetic is "something that doesn't line up with common trends".
17:28:27 <imode> esoteric languages have this aesthetic.
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17:29:35 <pikhq> In my opinion you can also do esoteric programming in objectively _not_ esoteric programming languages, by doing so in unusual ways. Making heavy use of obscure features, for example.
17:30:06 <pikhq> (some entries in the IOCCC feel like they count, for example)
17:30:12 <zzo38> You might also examine on the esolang wiki where someone wrote about VAX, about prehistory of esoteric programming, and about programming languages with unusual features.
17:30:25 <imode> that fits the traditional definition of esoteric, where not a lot of people really use those features.
17:31:06 <imode> but COBOL/C++ templates/etc. don't really have an esoteric aesthetic. they _were_ popular at some point, or are a part of a larger system.
17:31:21 <int-e> pikhq: indeed some IOCCC entries do have their own esolang page
17:31:44 <zzo38> Also, can a programming language be esoteric and not esoteric at the same time? I think someone (other than myself) on this IRC said this about PostScript, although that isn't the only possibility/ Also, it may be more complicated than that.
17:32:00 <imode> forth. it went to space, but doesn't get much use.
17:32:01 <pikhq> zzo38: I wanna say that was RodgerTheGreat?
17:32:05 <pikhq> Sounds like him at least
17:33:01 <zzo38> Maybe, but I am not sure; see if you can find it in the logs; I think it was recent (within the past month)
17:33:29 <pikhq> In that case not him; he's not been in this channel for... quite some time
17:34:04 <zzo38> (Something else I can say about PostScript is that it is both general-purpose and domain-specific.)
17:34:22 <pikhq> imode: Yeah COBOL is very much not esoteric, just archaic. C++ templates... only if you're using the turing tarpit nature of them
17:34:27 <zzo38> Well, there is the possibility that sometimes more than one person will have the same ideas
17:36:04 <imode> pikhq: thing is, by definition they can be considered esoteric... but the thing that gets you onto the esowiki, for example, is the aesthetic. they're intended to be esoteric by design. COBOL just kinda.. became that with time.
17:36:27 <pikhq> COBOL was a _completely_ normal and mundane programming language of its time
17:36:34 <zzo38> imode: Yes, I think you are probably correct
17:36:36 <pikhq> It's just that time is now historical
17:39:19 <b_jonas> no, COBOL sucked already when it was created
17:39:29 <b_jonas> it's like Excel, a programming language intended for non-programmers
17:39:47 <imode> yeah but you didn't consider excel esoteric at the time it was made.
17:40:03 <kmc> I enjoy spreadsheet programming a lot
17:40:52 <b_jonas> kmc: even when the keywords are translated and you have to keep looking up how you spell VKERES in English or SQRT in Hungarian?
17:42:11 <zzo38> Does it allow you to set the keywords to English when the menus are written in other languages, if you want to do?
17:42:47 <zzo38> Did you read: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Programming_languages_with_unusual_features http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures
17:43:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think so, at least not if the menus are in Hungarian. maybe there's some language where the keywords are not translated, so you get English function names. but on the plus side, current versions of Excel just let you download the English language pack from the internet and use Office in English, rather than having to buy a separate installer
17:45:49 <zzo38> (Some of the features of VAX are actually ones that (prior to knowing about VAX) are also what my ideas were for designing an instruction set too, including the huge VLIW microcode with each instruction having a jump, and the orthogonal instruction set with the possibility to write to immediates, it turns out)
17:45:54 <b_jonas> so I actually have all the software working in English on my work machine. this did require me to set the language to English in at least five places, and to figure out how to reset Firefox to English every two years when they change how it works, but it's totally worth.
17:47:04 <b_jonas> fungot, how long is the longest infix made of only letter "i"s in the word Hawaiian when it's spelled correctly?
17:48:20 <b_jonas> like five years ago, I still had to deal with some of the software messages in Hungarian
17:49:28 <int-e> I think as far as the wiki is concerned, we have used a fairly inclusive definition of "esoteric". So, a page on TIS-100 is likely to survive if it's not ripping off in-game material or spoiling all the tasks (which would raise copyright concerns wrt. CC0). Heck we tolerate (begrudgingly) a ton of Brainfuck variations, we can suffer a more constructive contribution which doesn't feel as purely...
17:50:49 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, we're inclusive as a public service, to serve as a trap to divert useless content away from Wikipedias
17:51:07 <int-e> b_jonas: that's... cynical
17:51:52 <b_jonas> well that's not the only goal of the esoteric wiki, but it's a good reason to be inclusive
17:52:31 <int-e> Another good reason is that it's a wiki. Apart from making `random page` more noisy, there isn't really much harm in having another page.
17:53:42 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, though the names of some of them are stupid. like https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX . we should rename that page.
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18:38:26 <b_jonas> fungot: got it, it's called an involution
18:38:37 <HackEso> An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember.
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00:15:53 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82381&oldid=82373 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Hello, world! */ Fix function
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01:12:52 <nakilon> [GitHub] The ".github/workflows/main.yaml" workflow in Nakilon/esolang will be disabled soon
01:12:52 <nakilon> Scheduled workflows are disabled automatically after 60 days of repository inactivity.
01:14:08 <nakilon> I wonder if "inactivity" means no commits, so I could make scheduled monthly make commit in another Github Action
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03:05:43 <nakilon> Github provides 2000 Action minutes, Gitlab -- 400
03:07:22 <nakilon> or should I forget how their junior dev deleted the server
03:39:40 <HackEso> 1/2:halfling//Halflings are genericized hobbits for intellectual property reasons. \ heffalump//A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead. \ fixed point theorem//The Fixed Point Theorem states that every planet P will have a point where Archimedes can stand to move it. \ cocoonspirator//A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk \ graham's number//Graham's number isn't as delicious as his c
04:53:49 <imode> gitlab ain't that bad.
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05:36:49 <zzo38> Are you the kind of person to learn Magic: the Gathering by reading the Comprehensive Rules (to read the entire rules before you try)?
05:37:24 <shachaf> The first time I learned Magic: the Gathering, I didn't speak English.
05:37:46 <shachaf> The second time, I did speak English, but I just learned by watching people play.
05:38:06 <shachaf> I think even knowing all the rules isn't sufficient to construct a good model of how the game works.
05:38:16 <shachaf> Many of the interactions are subtle.
05:41:00 <zzo38> OK, although that is how I learned. (even though that isn't what they recommend)
05:42:15 <zzo38> (I think their recommendation is wrong. I have seen other things too, they recommend not reading all of it, but I find I can learn it beffer if I do read all of it)
05:44:33 <zzo38> But, yes, many of the interactions are subtle. But, I think some of that could be made clearer by writing it as a literate computer program intead, possibly making up a new programming language for this purpose
05:46:19 <shachaf> That would probably help with ambiguities, at least.
05:46:28 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I mean.
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06:17:43 <kmc> I am the kind of person who would do that, but not enough of the kind of person who would do that to actually do that
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09:14:35 <river> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxXaizglscw
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10:17:48 <esowiki> [[User:WallGraffiti]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82382 * WallGraffiti * (+490) Created page with "'Ello. I'm a 13 year old student from Lithuania who now lives in England and has been there for years. I like coding completely random and sometimes not so random stuff in a s..."
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13:04:18 <esowiki> [[(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82383&oldid=79550 * Tape * (+1673) adding code to the interpreter
13:55:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Threesodas * New user account
14:22:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82384&oldid=82380 * Threesodas * (+325) /* Introductions */
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14:54:09 <esowiki> [[Mierda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82385 * Threesodas * (+1423) Created page with "'''Mierda''' ''(spanish for Fuck)'' is a [[brainfuck]] [[trivial brainfuck substitution | substitution]] language. Each command is changed to be the Spanish translations of th..."
14:56:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82386&oldid=82354 * Threesodas * (+13)
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16:29:30 <pikhq> I didn't learn Magic by reading the comprehensive rules, but I did study them afterwards
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18:15:18 <esowiki> [[User:Threesodas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82387 * Threesodas * (+52) Created page with "a dumbass [https://threesodas.glitch.me My website]"
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21:19:46 <zzo38> Is there Swiss or German suited tarot, or do they come in only Latin and French?
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21:36:15 <zzo38> Latin suits are swords, rods, money, and cups. (In many tarot decks, the money has pentagrams.) French suits are spades, clubs, diamonds, and hearts. Swiss suits are shields, acorns, flowers, and bells.
21:39:04 <pikhq> Tarot is a card deck used for some card games; divination is just one of the applications, and not the original one
21:40:46 <zzo38> Yes, it is. (Although, divination can be done with other cards too; tarot cards is just the cards commonly used for that purpose.)
21:41:05 <pikhq> it's got 4 suits that work similarly to the more familiar card decks, plus a suit of 22 cards which are trump cards
21:42:09 <pikhq> in divination those are called the "minor" and "major" arcana, but that's jut another name for the suits of the playing card deck
21:42:57 <zzo38> Yes, although in some games, the Fool is not a trump but instead you can play it even if you would otherwise be required to follow suit, but then you automatically lose that trick (sometimes it is called "Excuse" for this reason). In other games, the Fool is the XXII of trumps. (Although, in many decks it is labeled zero; someone told me this is because it represents the beginning of a journey.)
21:43:37 <pikhq> (the names "magician", "high priestess", "death", etc. are actually card names in the tarot playing card decks, fwiw. that's not a novel invention for divination; the deck just happens to be rich in symbolism that is understandably appealing to people interested in divination)
21:46:53 <zzo38> I do not have any tarot cards, although I play solitaire with tarot cards on the computer.
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23:47:09 <esowiki> [[Mierda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82388&oldid=82385 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+178) /* Hello, World! */ cats
23:49:50 <shachaf> Man, precedence parsing is great.
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01:39:29 <imode> I'm trying to figure out the tree structure of a purely concatenative language.
01:39:39 <imode> and how it evolves over time.
01:40:56 <imode> 1 2 [add] comppose ! compose ! 3 4 [add] compose ! compose ! ! swap ! ! [add] ! <-- form two quotations, evaluate the first one, swap them, evaluate the second one, then add their results.
01:41:08 <imode> every time you see a "!", it should read "apply".
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06:18:37 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82389&oldid=81619 * Aspwil * (+488)
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07:52:40 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82390&oldid=82346 * Olus2000 * (+179) Added External resources
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08:07:36 <esowiki> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82391&oldid=82390 * Olus2000 * (+194) /* Expressions and operators */ added `nanpa nasa` for randomness
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08:31:07 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82392&oldid=82389 * Aspwil * (+161) /* Language Overview */
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12:17:33 <int-e> `` perl -e 'printf "%.1f %.1f %.1f %.1f", 1e-1, "1e-1", 0x1p-1, "0x1p-1"'
12:21:17 <int-e> More like meh, since I do have a string of the last form. And all I'm finding is "oh you don't have to convert strings to floats in perls because that happens automagically in a scalar context"
12:21:26 <int-e> Which is not helpful.
12:24:57 <fizzie> `perl-e printf "%.1f", eval "0x1p-1"
12:25:04 <fizzie> Nothing eval can't solve. ;)
12:25:13 <int-e> b_jonas: have you run into this perchance?
12:25:48 <int-e> I really don't want eval... though I guess I could write down a pretty precise regexp for this case.
12:26:52 <fizzie> All I know is hex/oct, but that's just for integers.
12:27:44 <int-e> https://www.effectiveperlprogramming.com/2015/06/perl-v5-22-adds-hexadecimal-floating-point-literals/ only suggests 'eval' (possibly restricted) as well. Sigh. Oh well, I guess I'll do that then.
12:29:24 <fizzie> `perl-e printf "%.1f", (hex "0x1")*2**"-1"
12:29:33 <fizzie> I guess you could always split it into that ^
12:31:03 <int-e> $_ = eval $_ if /^0x[0-9a-f]*(\.[0-9a-f]*)?p[+-][0-9]+$/; # ouch
12:32:21 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82393&oldid=82392 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Language Overview */ Deadlink
12:33:33 <fizzie> `perl-e $_ = "0x1p-1"; $_ = (hex $1)*2**$2 if /^(0x[0-9a-f]*(?:\.[0-9a-f]*)?)p([+-][0-9]+)$/; printf "%.1f", $_; # with the same regex
12:35:33 <int-e> oh, hex can do 1a.a1 kind of stuff?
12:36:23 <fizzie> Didn't think of that. Awkward.
12:36:50 <int-e> ah, the example didn't have that. reading is hard :)
12:36:59 <fizzie> I guess you could still do it by applying an offset to the exponent.
12:37:25 <int-e> yeah no, it's not worth the effort, I'll trust the regexp instead
12:39:24 <int-e> oh right, there's \d for [0-9]
12:41:54 <int-e> But I guess in this context I prefer [0-9] (also, \d is different for unicode but that doesn't come up)
12:41:59 <fizzie> `perl-e $_ = "0x1.5p-1"; $_ = (hex $1.$2)*2**($3-4*length $2) if /^(0x[0-9a-f]*)(?:\.([0-9a-f]*))?p([+-][0-9]+)$/; printf $_; # just for completeness
12:44:01 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82394&oldid=78268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Function declaration */ typo
12:45:31 <fizzie> FWIW, I'm sure there's also some lower-level-than-eval function somewhere in B or somewhere that'd do it for you.
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12:57:59 <int-e> `perl-e printf"%g, %g\n", 0x1p-1074, 0x1.8p-1073
13:01:25 <int-e> `interp c double x,y; sscanf("0x1p-1074 0x1.8p-1073", "%a %a", &x, &y); fprintf(stdout,"%a %a",x,y);
13:03:47 <fizzie> `interp c double x = 0x1p-1074, y = 0x1.8p-1073; printf("%a %a", x, y);
13:03:49 <HackEso> 0x0.0000000000001p-1022 0x0.0000000000003p-1022
13:05:02 <fizzie> If memory serves, the requirements for strtod (and indirectly scanf) are different than that for floating-point literals.
13:05:59 <int-e> it's still impressive how messed up the result for 0x1.8p-1073 is.
13:06:47 <fizzie> Hmm, they actually aren't for the special case of hexadecimal constants.
13:07:14 <int-e> another data point: 0x0p+0 0x0.07ffcp-1022
13:07:15 <fizzie> C11 6.4.4.2p3: "For hexadecimal floating constants when `FLT_RADIX` is a power of 2, the result is correctly rounded." 7.22.1.3p5 "If the subject sequence [of strtod] has the hexadecimal form and `FLT_RADIX` is a power of 2, the value resulting from the conversion is correctly rounded."
13:07:28 <fizzie> I think that means you could report a bug.
13:07:49 <int-e> (of course, floating point is hard, and denormals are harder)
13:08:28 <int-e> fizzie: I was trying to show that your code is flawed because 2**($3-4*length $2) can underflow (so 0x1.8p-1073 being 0 is pretty much expected)
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13:10:02 <fizzie> (A /correctly rounded result/ means, 3.9p1, a "representation in the result format that is nearest in value, subject to the current rounding mode, to what the result would be given unlimited range and precision". Subnormal numbers may be a little bit of a grey area, since they're not required to exist, though I think a reasonable reading would mean if they *do* exist, a correctly rounded result must use
13:10:19 <int-e> `perl-e printf"%a, %a\n", 0x1p-1074, 0x3p-1074
13:12:02 <fizzie> I agree the 0x0.0007fp-1022 and especially the 0x0.07ffcp-1022 for 0x1.8p-1073 are pretty amazing.
13:12:10 <int-e> `perl-e printf"%a, %a\n", 0x1p-1074, 0x1.0p-1074 #another variation on the theme
13:12:27 <int-e> So I guess Perl does pretty much what you suggested internally.
13:14:52 <int-e> Oh wait, it doesn't parse these at all, x and y are not intialized
13:15:53 <int-e> `interp c double x = 42,y = 42; sscanf("0x1p-1074 0x1.8p-1073", "%a %a", &x, &y); fprintf(stdout,"%a %a",x,y);
13:16:05 <int-e> okay, that is embarrassing
13:19:33 <int-e> strtod handles those correctly. phew.
13:20:17 <int-e> `interp c double x = strtod("0x1p-1074",0), y=strtod("0x1.8p-1073",0); fprintf(stdout,"%a %a",x,y);
13:20:20 <HackEso> 0x0.0000000000001p-1022 0x0.0000000000003p-1022
13:21:02 <int-e> That's a relief. But it's also annoying that *scanf don't seem to support this format.
13:21:31 <fizzie> `interp c double x = 42,y = 42; sscanf("0x1p-1074 0x1.8p-1073", "%lf %lf", &x, &y); fprintf(stdout,"%a %a",x,y);
13:21:33 <HackEso> 0x0.0000000000001p-1022 0x0.0000000000003p-1022
13:21:43 <fizzie> You forgot the 'l', and turns out %a is alias of %f.
13:22:23 <fizzie> I guess it's an out-of-range error for a `float`, which is why it didn't assign anything.
13:22:34 <int-e> And as floats these are 0, so that explains the near-0 results we saw
13:23:27 <int-e> Right, the thing that led me astray here is the implicit conversion to double in printf. C can be nasty.
13:24:21 <int-e> (because of varargs magic)
13:25:16 <int-e> (And while I do use C quite a bit, I hardly ever parse anything involving floating point numbers.)
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16:05:25 <b_jonas> int-e: I think hex float syntax is newer than perl, so they didn't just want to change how a string is converted to a number for compatibility. but I don't know how to parse hex floats in perl, I haven't been doing perl for a while.
16:08:01 <int-e> b_jonas: Probably, but what's the excuse for not adding a function for the purpose then? (Unless I missed one...)
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16:11:24 <b_jonas> int-e: they rarely add new core functions these days. there's probably something in a module.
16:12:21 <b_jonas> not that python's treatment of hex float format is much better...
17:41:52 <int-e> `` python -c 'print (float.hex(0.1), float.fromhex("0x1.1p-1"))'
17:41:53 <HackEso> ('0x1.999999999999ap-4', 0.53125)
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17:42:31 <int-e> b_jonas: no literals apparently, but as you can see, they have a function for converting a hex string to a float
17:44:42 <int-e> which feels more normal to me than having a literal syntax for numbers but not way to parse that same format *shrugs*
17:45:10 <int-e> I've complained, and I've solved my immediate problem. It's mostly good now, I'll live :)
17:57:42 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82395&oldid=81929 * Largejamie * (+68) /* Overview */
17:57:58 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82396&oldid=82395 * Largejamie * (-2) /* Overview */
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18:05:58 <b_jonas> int-e: the problem is just that
18:06:20 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("%d %X %g" % (71, 71, 71/2))
18:06:36 <b_jonas> but there's no format specification for hex floats, you have to call an extra function to format to a hex float for some reason
18:06:52 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("%a" % (71/2,))
18:07:02 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("%A" % (71/2,))
18:07:03 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ ValueError: unsupported format character 'A' (0x41) at index 1
18:07:07 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("%X" % (71/2,))
18:07:08 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ TypeError: %X format: an integer is required, not float
18:07:28 <b_jonas> I mean %a was already used, but there's no other format letter for this either
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18:17:10 <fizzie> I thought it was all about f-strings nowadays, and not the % operator. But those don't seem to have a syntax for hex floats either.
18:17:13 <fizzie> https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html#format-specification-mini-language "The available presentation types for float and Decimal values are: ... eEfFgGn% ..."
18:18:17 <fizzie> They could've easily included a/A *there*, because right now it just throws "ValueError: Unknown format code 'a' for object of type 'float'".
18:19:09 <fizzie> `python3 -cprint(f"{0.4:.2%}") # TIL
18:20:53 <int-e> `python3 -cprint(f"{0.4:.2‰}")
18:20:54 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ ValueError: Unknown format code '\x2030' for object of type 'float'
18:23:41 <fizzie> Let's not get carried away here.
18:23:58 <fizzie> That's the sort of thing you see on our wiki, not in a serious language.
18:24:43 * int-e checks the channel name
18:25:22 <int-e> I think I tried it in the right place :)
18:27:09 <fizzie> I think you could write a wrapper class to support ‰ though, because AIUI the way it works is, the whole format specification gets passed to the __format__ method, which can interpret it in arbitrary ways.
18:27:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Angel * New user account
18:27:47 <fizzie> I don't know how to write Python oneliners though. Is it even possible to express arbitrary Python constructs without using a newline?
18:28:26 <imode> semicolons should work? good question.
18:28:34 <imode> oneliners can take the form of comprehensions.
18:31:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82397&oldid=82384 * Angel * (+269) /* Introductions */
18:32:48 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm just wondering how you'd for example declare a class, and then end that class declaration and do something using it.
18:37:37 <imode> don't think that's possible. :\
18:38:06 <imode> kind of why I don't like Python as a language.
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19:08:35 <esowiki> [[--yay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82398 * Angel * (+2317) Created page with "[[--yay]] is a [[Category:stack-based]] esoteric programming programming language created with the goal of creating an esoteric programming language (I know, very impressive,..."
19:08:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:--yay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82399 * Angel * (+0) Created blank page
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20:29:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: I hate all the f-streams and bracket style format languages.
20:37:56 <int-e> the ability to write oneliners is overrated
20:42:28 <shachaf> I would certainly appreciate it.
20:42:50 <shachaf> Using the Python REPL to define functions is awful. If you make one mistake you have to go back and repeat every other line.
20:43:24 <int-e> REPLs are overrated too. Write it to a file, load it.
20:43:58 <int-e> (especially when the REPL cannot save definitions... which I believe is the case for python)
20:44:10 <shachaf> Even when using it as a calculator?
20:44:43 <shachaf> I use ghci as a REPL and still define functions.
20:44:43 <int-e> I guess I don't use Python as a calculator.
20:45:09 <shachaf> I don't know whether Python's REPL can save definitions, but if it did it automatically I'd disable it.
20:45:16 <int-e> You may have a point there... I like simple putting one-line definitions in ghci
20:45:18 <shachaf> I disable history in almost all REPLs, and also less search history, etc.
20:45:24 <int-e> simple putting -> putting simple
20:45:27 <shachaf> I mean the program `less`.
20:45:48 <int-e> the `less` history annoys me
20:45:54 <int-e> the `ghci` history is useful :P
20:46:03 <int-e> (reverse-i-search)`let ': let c n 0 = 1; c n k = c (n-1) (k-1) * n `div` k
20:46:09 <shachaf> In bash I have it set up to not save history when I exit, except if I explicitly ask it to.
20:46:30 <int-e> (that right there is my most common definition in ghci)
20:47:00 <shachaf> That's a pretty common definition.
20:47:40 <int-e> uh. how do I parse that
20:48:27 <shachaf> I mean, everyone wants that one.
20:48:32 <shachaf> And it's tragically missing.
20:48:43 <shachaf> I do put a bunch of definitions and imports in my .ghci.
20:49:05 <shachaf> Except ghci startup has gotten so slow that now I don't have them in by default.
20:49:08 <int-e> Meh .ghci is all wrong though.
20:49:48 <int-e> I believe .ghci is sourced twice if you run ghci in your home directory. Which I do a lot. But maybe that's fixed.
20:50:14 <shachaf> Looks like it's only once.
20:50:16 <int-e> But worse, it's picked up from whatever local directory I happen to be in and I don't want that at all.
20:51:01 <int-e> Too much browsing third-party code, too much using `ghci` as a calculator in whatever shell I happen to have open.
20:51:01 <shachaf> *** WARNING: . is writable by someone else, IGNORING!
20:51:32 <int-e> So I use alias ghci='ghci -ignore-dot-ghci'
20:52:36 <int-e> (Hmm, cann I still provide a global .ghci file *after* giving that option? It's been a long time since I considered this.)
20:52:50 <shachaf> You could try -ghci-script
20:53:26 <myname> why don't you just empty .ghci then?
20:55:02 <int-e> myname: which problem does that solve?
20:55:16 <myname> you don't need the alias
20:55:38 <int-e> myname: the alias is for not picking up third party's .ghci files
20:57:57 <int-e> shachaf: thanks for the discussion :) Yes, -ghci-script works in conjunction with -ignore-dot-ghci
20:58:12 <shachaf> myname: ghci reads ./.ghci, not just ~/.ghci.
20:58:44 <shachaf> Now you can define c once and for all.
20:59:04 <int-e> it's my definition of choice
20:59:19 <shachaf> The main use of .ghci is to enable all the extensions upfront, since enabling them whenever I test something is so much typing.
20:59:44 <shachaf> I have 43 extensions enabled.
20:59:55 <shachaf> No, 40, since a few are commented out.
21:00:11 <shachaf> Also I don't do much Haskell anymore so it's all irrelevant anyway.
21:00:35 <int-e> I'm not convinced that I can even name 40 extensions on the spot :)
21:01:12 <int-e> (yes, I can do :set -X<tab>)
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21:01:43 <shachaf> One of them is NoMonomorphismRestriction. Is that an extension?
21:01:45 <int-e> I guess the main thing here is that I never got into the really deep type hackery.
21:02:29 <shachaf> One of the funny extensions whose name starts with No.
21:02:30 <int-e> I guess it's incomparable if you look at code being accepted or not.
21:02:44 <shachaf> You can see an old .ghci at https://slbkbs.org/ghci.txt
21:03:38 <shachaf> SOme of these are a bit silly.
21:04:48 <shachaf> Oh, the other thing is, when you enable extensions in your .ghci, you can ghci a file and not have to write the extensions at the top.
21:04:59 <shachaf> Which is very convenient even when you're experimenting in a file instead of the REPL.
21:05:38 <shachaf> I wonder what kind of type hackery counts as "really deep".
21:06:31 <int-e> polykinded type family types of things
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21:07:32 <int-e> In ghci I usually get away with one or two extensions at a time, and often none at all.
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21:13:13 <shachaf> Personally, I'm into kind hackery and value hackery, but not type hackery.
21:13:30 <shachaf> Too bad GHC has type-in-type and ruins this.
21:16:10 <shachaf> Do you like distributed consensus? I had some questions about Paxos, I think.
21:33:03 <int-e> . o O ( faux Paxos )
21:33:44 <int-e> Anyway, nah... never studied the stuff in detail.
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22:28:56 <arseniiv_> TIL how to compose permutations given in cycle form, it’s surprisingly natural
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22:30:40 <arseniiv> to compose a permutation σ in cycle form with a single cycle c, you kind of place portals right before all elements in σ which belong to c and then “re-glue” as needed
22:31:03 <arseniiv> and then you just compose with all remaining cycles one by one
22:31:50 <arseniiv> portals were my great discovery, before that I didn’t think you can multiply cycles on paper without converting them to substitutions and back
22:33:15 <arseniiv> I don’t know if someone teaches that somewhere, but probably this method is implemented somewhere in GAP CAS, at least, as there are primitive permutation objects which you represent in cycle form and they don’t belong to any predefined group
22:35:12 <arseniiv> one certainly can inject all multiplied permutations into a certain minimal S_n group and compute using substitution form and then convert back to cycles but now I see this isn’t a necessity at all
22:35:33 <arseniiv> I like liberating moments like those
22:43:30 <arseniiv> the strangest is that I wouldn’t end up with this on my own. I ended up here because I helped a person to prove you can’t make a certain class of permutations by composing just m transpositions. The proof ended up surprisingly simple but side effect was discovering this for myself
22:47:31 <arseniiv> (the precise statement is: if a permutation from S_n has m cycles, including fixed points, then you can get it by composing ≥ n − m transpositions, and can’t for less than that. The simple truth there is that by composing with a transposition, you either add or subtract 1 from that number d, and that () has d = 0, so naturally, just induction and you’re done
22:57:52 <int-e> arseniiv: and you have to adhere to the parity restriction too
23:00:00 <arseniiv> int-e: shouldn’t it be included in d? Parity is (−1)^d
23:00:23 <int-e> arseniiv: the portal thing... note that (a b c) can be read as a -> b, b -> c, c -> a; so (a b c) (b d) with a "portal" between the b-s makes a -> b -> d the composition of two table lookups.
23:01:18 <arseniiv> I need of course to add that my thing only proves that no < n − m suffices, and proving n − m suffices is another thing which in my case was proven beforehand so I helped just with this one
23:02:32 <int-e> arseniiv: You can basically prove the parity property, but you didn't mention it. (I mean: n-m works, n-m+1 doesn't, n-m+2 works agein, n-m+3 doesn't, etc.)
23:02:34 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, of course both things are equivalent but converting from tables to cycles and back is still not good when you use only tables or only cycles
23:02:53 <int-e> arseniiv: I just never write down the tables.
23:03:18 <arseniiv> int-e: ah, yeah, I mis-that-thinged the proposition
23:04:39 <arseniiv> int-e: now I probably wouldn’t too, though I almost don’t deal with permutations by hand at all in any case
23:05:09 <arseniiv> though tables of course are useful for some demonstrations, I don’t remember which…
23:06:46 <int-e> say: (1 2 3) (3 4 5) (2 5): 1 maps to 2, then 5. 5 maps to 3, 3 maps to 1. That's (1 5 3). And 2 maps to 3, then 4; 4 maps to 5 then 2, so (2 4). And that's the whole result in cycle form: (1 5 3) (2 4)
23:08:11 <int-e> The point being, you can do all this fairly easily without every writing down a table. But applying a permutation to a single element is the same as such a table lookup.
23:09:38 <int-e> Knuth actually devotes some space on algorithms for this in TAoCP.
23:09:51 <int-e> (I forgot the details.)
23:13:55 <arseniiv> oh, didn’t read TAoCP extensively. No surprise he would do that there, though!
23:14:20 <arseniiv> yep, I mean for some reason before yesterday I thought multiplying cycles would be harrd
23:15:01 <arseniiv> I thought when implementing something in that vein several years ago, probably
23:15:19 <arseniiv> there were two classes for each representation, for that matter
23:15:36 <int-e> it's hard... in that you can mess things up very easily :)
23:16:18 <arseniiv> there is a common mistake when composing tables too, I knew about it and still made it a couple of times
23:17:05 <arseniiv> forgetting to add elements which aren’t mapped to anything in the first table (and thus usually absent from its keys)
23:17:23 <arseniiv> the keys of a corresponding map
23:44:24 <esowiki> [[Suptiftam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82400&oldid=81912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Hello, world! */ Fix
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00:40:14 <oerjan> `perl -eprintf "%.1f" 0+"0x1p-1"
00:40:19 <HackEso> Number found where operator expected at -e line 1, near ""%.1f" 0" \ (Missing operator before 0?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near ""%.1f" 0" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
00:40:42 <oerjan> `perl -eprintf "%.1f", 0+"0x1p-1"
00:41:56 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:42:31 <shachaf> That's a little much, really.
00:48:02 <oerjan> i've become slightly less toe-obsessed hth
00:48:18 <oerjan> also a lot less golfing.
00:52:20 <shachaf> `swrjan s/golfing toe-obsessed //
00:52:22 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
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01:07:55 <imode> does an interpreter for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ask-calculus exist?
01:11:53 <oerjan> . o O ( nope, you're the first to Ask )
02:06:58 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82401 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+251) Hello :-
02:07:23 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82402&oldid=82401 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+0)
02:07:51 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82403&oldid=82402 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+0)
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03:36:13 <zzo38> Apparently, the Z3 German computer has no conditional branching but can speculatively compute all possible outcomes of a calculation.
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04:13:39 <imode> interesting. source?
04:14:07 <zzo38> It was mentioned on ifMUD, apparently they got it from Wikipedia; I haven't checked Wikipedia though
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04:21:32 <b_jonas> "shifty eldrazi grinch"? is that new?
04:22:06 <b_jonas> must be new, eldrazi weren't invented until 2009
04:23:38 <HackEso> If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it.
04:23:55 <b_jonas> imode: (tr ASK \`sk) then pipe it to an unlambda interpreter
04:45:25 <b_jonas> picture of the day on Wikimedia Commons is a composite image of night lights on Earth. hey look, I can see my house from here!
05:43:53 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82404&oldid=82321 * RocketRace * (+40) link
05:44:41 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82405&oldid=82404 * RocketRace * (+41) link
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07:58:59 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82406&oldid=82403 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+170) Fixed a few broken links.) (By the way, please don't edit my user page without permission. Have a good day!) :-
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08:08:46 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82407&oldid=79566 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+74)
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08:39:21 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82408&oldid=82339 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+314) How to print the special characters) (It is suggested that this edit be moved into the "Algorithms" article.
08:59:50 <esowiki> [[Emojifunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82409 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+1750) WIP
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11:58:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * L4m2 * New user account
12:11:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82410&oldid=82397 * L4m2 * (+78) /* Introductions */
12:11:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82411&oldid=53797 * L4m2 * (+120) /* Isn't there a language that everything is undefined behavior? */ new section
12:28:05 <esowiki> [[--yay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82412&oldid=82398 * Angel * (+11)
12:28:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82413&oldid=82386 * Angel * (+12)
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13:09:49 <esowiki> [[--yay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82414&oldid=82412 * Angel * (+1326)
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15:11:51 <esowiki> [[Stoplight]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82416 * Threesodas * (+1193) Created page with "'''Stoplight''' is a 2-character language. All it does is prints letters. {| class="wikitable" !Character !Action |- |% |Increase cell |- |# |Print cell value as ASCII value a..."
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16:20:08 <esowiki> [[Backshar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82417 * Threesodas * (+2957) Created page with "'''Backshar''' is a programmable language with actual commands similar to real languages such as ''C#'', ''C++'', ''JS'', ''Python'', and more. Nothing about it, excluding str..."
16:20:44 <esowiki> [[Backshar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82418&oldid=82417 * Threesodas * (-80)
16:45:31 <esowiki> [[Backshar+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82419 * Threesodas * (+3343) Created page with "'''Backshar+''', a sequel to [[Backshar]], is a completely symbol-based language. Nothing, unlike '''Backshar''', uses A-Z & 0-9. It was remade like this by user:threesodas..."
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18:44:52 <esowiki> [[Backshar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82420&oldid=82418 * Threesodas * (+37)
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19:35:17 <esowiki> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82421&oldid=82387 * Threesodas * (+51)
19:37:34 <esowiki> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82422&oldid=82421 * Threesodas * (-15)
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20:05:17 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:05:20 <b_jonas> has Taneb invented kayak polo yet?
20:25:17 <Taneb> That's an excellent question
20:25:45 <Taneb> The hard part is getting the horses into the kayaks
20:26:38 <b_jonas> ah I see, you invented elephant jokes too
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21:18:25 <shachaf> Taneb: Have you invented any good kittens lately?
21:18:38 <shachaf> And if so can I see them? twh
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21:21:41 <Taneb> Sadly most of the time when I have been outside lately it has been with a dog and that tends to prevent me seeing kittens
21:22:19 <int-e> https://pwmarcz.pl/kaboom/ is still good
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22:07:23 <fizzie> The nearby ground floor flat with the big windows had two small cats that I hadn't seen before.
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22:15:16 <int-e> pooch/porch/perch/merch/mercy/merry/marry/parry/party/patty/potty/dotty/ditty/kitty <-- same thing?
22:15:55 <shachaf> Yes, a pooch is the same thing as a porch.
22:17:14 <int-e> fungot: tell us about pooches and kitties
22:17:14 <fungot> int-e: i was talking about 2. that which is not true
22:17:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
22:17:39 <fungot> int-e: the fact i didn't talk to him. she had told him to just state that the nazis " are no fun
22:18:21 <int-e> that was very coherent... and unexpected
22:21:06 <shachaf> As the song goes, kitty kitty makes me happy.
22:23:03 <fizzie> There's another song that says kitten is angry.
22:23:36 <int-e> is this a nursery rhyme thing
22:24:27 <shachaf> Preferably not angry, but y'know.
22:25:05 <shachaf> int-e: I implemented Paxos yesterday and I feel like I have an OK idea of what it's doing now.
22:25:19 <shachaf> I guess you were the person who wasn't too into these things.
22:25:48 <shachaf> I bet my implementation is subtly broken. There's a big amplification factor from the idea or the pseudocode to a real implementation
22:35:49 <fizzie> int-e: I was referring to Lemon Demon - Kitten Is Angry, which I don't think is heard as a continuation of that Word Disassociation song.
22:37:30 <shachaf> I was referring to Smile.dk - Kissy Kissy.
22:37:36 <fizzie> Occasionally there's cats in my video meetings (I mean, on the background, not as participants as such), and I think that's nice, but I've not figured out whether it'd be okay to request more cat time. I think probably not when it's not one of those social meetings, where I generally get no cats. :/
22:37:58 <shachaf> Isn't requesting more cat time always OK?
22:39:32 <int-e> fizzie: what is that music?
22:41:02 <fizzie> As in, category-wise? I don't really know. Definitely not something I listen to much, but I just remembered it because it was re kittens.
22:41:57 <int-e> fair enough (sorry, I'm feeling pretty negative right now, should probably sleep)
22:42:19 <shachaf> You need an emergency kitten infusion.
22:44:52 <esowiki> [[Backsharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82423 * Threesodas * (+5092) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=backsharp (BS#)}} Read about: [[Backshar]] | [[Backshar+]] "I am really out of ideas now. '''Backsharp''' is the best I can come up with. Seriously, 'BS#'..."
22:48:46 <esowiki> [[Backsharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82424&oldid=82423 * Threesodas * (+257)
22:49:31 <esowiki> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82425&oldid=82422 * Threesodas * (+30)
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22:51:21 <esowiki> [[Backshar+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82426&oldid=82419 * Threesodas * (+24) /* Family */
22:51:36 <esowiki> [[Backshar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82427&oldid=82420 * Threesodas * (+24) /* Family */
22:52:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82428&oldid=82413 * Threesodas * (+47) /* B */
23:14:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Threesodas * uploaded "[[File:10K counter.png]]"
23:16:33 <esowiki> [[Backsharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82430&oldid=82424 * Threesodas * (+64)
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03:01:43 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82431&oldid=78094 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+31)
03:05:56 <esowiki> [[Emojifunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82432&oldid=82409 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+170)
03:17:50 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82433&oldid=82407 * Zzo38 * (+604)
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07:05:10 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82434&oldid=82433 * Hyperdawg * (+98) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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07:49:59 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
08:09:58 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82435&oldid=82434 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+336) /* Game */
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08:23:06 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82436&oldid=82435 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+206) /* Looks Like */
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13:51:24 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82437&oldid=82335 * RocketRace * (+2) italic
13:53:23 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82438&oldid=82437 * RocketRace * (+180) What does it even mean to be linked
14:02:18 <esowiki> [[Emojifunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82439&oldid=82432 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Instructions */ Add missing cell
14:08:54 <esowiki> [[Seoul]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82440 * Threesodas * (+4567) Created page with "'''Please help correctly categorize this page!'''<br><br> ''Seoul'' is a language that allows for data storage within a local system. Created in 2019 by user:threesodas | th..."
14:11:33 <esowiki> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82441&oldid=82425 * Threesodas * (+10)
14:11:46 <esowiki> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82442&oldid=82441 * Threesodas * (+4)
14:29:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82443&oldid=81358 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+132) /* Cat program */ Link to commands ( I have a long way to go still ... )
14:30:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/KiloScript]]: Name is right
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14:43:10 <grimler32> Evil People Messed with my LIFE! Are there any universe editors here with access to the 4 bit 3 dimensional god code at the multiverse level??
14:46:34 <myname> are you sure you are correct here?
14:47:06 <myname> if it's really 4 bits, it should be easy to guess, though. 4 bits are 16 different codes
14:50:13 <grimler32> yes the timethreads are written in 4 bit 3 dimensional code
14:51:14 <myname> that shit is hillarious
14:52:41 <myname> 3-dimensional binary digits are still binary digits
14:54:58 <Taneb> `welcome grimler32
14:55:00 <HackEso> grimler32: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:01:49 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82446&oldid=82381 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Prestionation */
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15:43:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VilgotanL * New user account
15:47:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82447&oldid=82410 * VilgotanL * (+216) add introduction
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16:03:48 <esowiki> [[User:VilgotanL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82448 * VilgotanL * (+151) Created page with "Hello, I'm some programmer that likes esolangs and writing interpreters (mostly in javascript), I'm currently working on an interpreter for [[Length]]."
16:04:18 <esowiki> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82449&oldid=82448 * VilgotanL * (+7) add "online"
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17:01:23 <b_jonas> "<myname> if it's really 4 bits, it should be easy to guess, though." => not really. that's like saying making organisms from DNA is easy because they're decoded in blocks of 6 bits so there are only 64 different codes
17:03:00 <myname> yeah, but only because you have multiple blocks
17:03:08 <myname> multiple different ones
17:03:18 <myname> so the code is really a whole lot longer
17:04:08 <b_jonas> myname: yes, and the universe probably also doesn't just have one 4 bit block
17:04:19 <b_jonas> I mean that wouldn't even really be 3 dimensional
17:04:30 <int-e> That reminds me of one time when marketing decided advertising 1 bit DACs for CD players was a good idea...
17:04:34 <myname> i wouldn't call it "a 4 bit code" then
17:07:00 <int-e> myname: It was the late 90s. You can still find traces of it on the Internet. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=9959.0 is one example.
17:08:17 <int-e> I /guess/ it's really a pulse code thing plus a low pass filter... so mostly, just cheap.
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17:17:04 <kmc> yeah it's a funny terminology to the layman
17:17:41 <kmc> but sigma-delta is actually a really good way to make an audio-frequency DAC
17:19:02 <fizzie> Heh, I think I had one of those devices with a "1-bit DAC" or some-such label on it.
17:19:11 <kmc> basically, digital logic is so much faster than audio frequency that you can get all the resolution you need on the time axis
17:20:51 <kmc> it's also a good way to make very efficient audio amplifiers (known as a class-D amplifier)
17:20:57 <int-e> kmc: sure, it worked. It's the step from implementation detail to marketing term that I never understood.
17:21:06 <fizzie> The box I currently use to listen to things has a logo with the text "24/384 upsampling" printed on it, which is less amusing.
17:21:23 <int-e> (Probably still works, but it's not longer used for marketing... as far as I'm aware :P)
17:21:31 <esowiki> [[Seoul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82450&oldid=82440 * Threesodas * (+1) /* Math */
17:22:42 <fizzie> According to the specs, the DAC in it is in fact a sigma-delta kind of a thing, but they've opted to not print "1-bit" on it.
17:23:46 <esowiki> [[Seoul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82451&oldid=82450 * Threesodas * (+51) /* Math */
17:30:48 <kmc> it is interesting to me how sigma delta DAC, class-D amplifier, and switch-mode power supply are related
17:31:17 <kmc> a power supply is like an amplifier with a constant input
17:34:05 <kmc> i think you can build a pure sine wave inverter this way too
17:34:12 <kmc> now i wonder if... yep https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/use-your-stereo-amplifier-as-an-ac-power-supply/
17:36:35 <int-e> kmc: Hah, I missed a punny opportunity there. "I understand that this is sound technology, but I don't get how it became a marketing term."
17:36:40 <kmc> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-nixie/
17:38:12 <kmc> int-e: hehe
18:15:39 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82452&oldid=81911 * VilgotanL * (+89) added my interpreter to external resources list
18:37:28 <esowiki> [[Albabet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82453 * Threesodas * (+580) Created page with "'''Albabet''' is a language similar to [[brainfuck]], though not a substitution.<br> It uses a "cell", but there is only one. {| class="wikitable" !Character !Description |- |..."
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19:33:09 <b_jonas> "<kmc> basically, digital logic is so much faster than audio frequency that you can get all the resolution you need on the time axis" => which is funny, because all the audio tech guys keep swearing that you should transfer audio on analog cables only, not digital and especially not bluetooth, because the latency or the quality will be terrible with digital.
19:34:58 <zzo38> Yes, it is one reason for the audio to be used with Digi-RGB to be analog, even though the video is digital. (Other reason is for simplicity; there is no need for digital audio, although digital video is helpful.) (I had done (partially) the design for Digi-RGB, which is video only, but is meant to be used with analog audio.)
19:35:02 <kmc> with latency they might have a point
19:35:16 <kmc> but I think audiophiles are usually full of shit
19:35:21 <zzo38> I had also seen suggestion using balanced wires; will that help better too?
19:35:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Seoul]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+668) /* Clarification */ new section
19:36:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Seoul]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82455&oldid=82454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Clarification */ .
19:36:35 <kmc> bluetooth audio is likely to be shit because it's compressed and because bluetooth is shit and never works right
19:38:13 <kmc> anyway my statement was just about DAC design not about audio systems in general
19:38:58 <b_jonas> `` coins # https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/nanacoin
19:39:05 <HackEso> obscrcoin illenamecoin snaicoin unscrcoin gfficcoin aaacoin gromecoin :≠coin exceludecoin edicoin bitcoin fabrmacoin jamdcoin clocoin ziacoin plasscoin subhcoin unstardcoin cramcoin icedichefecumloncoin
19:39:50 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, that more or less describes bluetooth
19:40:15 <int-e> kmc: https://www.amazon.com/Monolith-USB-Digital-Audio-Cable/dp/B07Q8X5H5T :-)
19:40:34 <int-e> kmc: (re: "but I think audiophiles are usually full of shit")
19:40:46 <kmc> only $15? it should be like $5,000 if it's really "audiophile grade"
19:41:02 <int-e> kmc: yes the price tag surprised me too
19:41:13 <zzo38> Audio signals should be digital for storage but analog for playback, I think.
19:41:18 <int-e> kmc: but all the rest (the list of features) is in line with expectations
19:42:10 <zzo38> Do you think it is a good idea? For connecting speakers and stuff like that, use analog; for recordings, you can use digital recoredings since the way that analog recordings are stored is of low quality.
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19:43:17 <zzo38> What is your experience of using balanced wires for audio?
19:43:30 <b_jonas> as for consumer audio. right now I have to work from home, so I have a work laptop at home. we have audio calls with coworkers on it. and I have to use its built-in microphone. why? I have multiple usable external microphones at home. I use them all the time to audio call my family on my home computer. but I can't plug them into the notebook, because the notebook AND its docking station only has single
19:43:36 <b_jonas> round audio sockets with combined headsets, which I can only use as a speaker output, whereas my external microphones plug into a separate microphone socket, even the headset which has two round plugs, one for speaker and one for microphone.
19:43:37 <int-e> kmc: fwiw my search terms were: "gold plated shielded usb audio cable" and this was the first or second hit
19:44:21 <int-e> kmc: I'm sure with a bit more digging I'd find something in the expected $100+ price range
19:44:24 <b_jonas> in theory you can also connect a bluetooth headset to the notebook, but they never work well, though I suspect that's the fault of the cheap bluetooth headsets that I have here, not exclusively the notebook's fault.
19:44:45 <zzo38> I think that wireless connections are just bad for many things in general
19:46:38 <b_jonas> is the "37 years ago" in that smbc a reference to anything in particular?
19:46:58 <b_jonas> ``` echo $[$(date +%Y)-37]
19:48:20 <esowiki> [[Seoul]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82456&oldid=82451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+148) /* Complete syntax */ Categori\w
19:49:02 <zzo38> Analog audio uses separate wires for each channel, whichI think is more useful if you want to split them and stuff like that too. HDMI isn't very good in my opinion
19:49:02 <esowiki> [[Seoul]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82457&oldid=82456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-52) Should be categorized correctly now
19:50:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I'd object that ball-point pens don't have variable line width
19:51:03 <zzo38> Do you often need to write with variable line width? (Maybe if you are writing shorthand, which I think uses thin lines and thick lines)
19:52:17 <int-e> b_jonas: 1984 is always a good reference I guess
19:53:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: that smbc shows an excerpt from the book, and you can see the variable line width
19:53:25 <kmc> b_jonas: you can get a splitter for those combined heatset jacks for cheap
19:53:30 <b_jonas> the "perfect cursive" itself doesn't imply variable line width, there are styles of cursive that use a fixed line width
19:53:45 <fizzie> int-e: Does a 1100 € Ethernet cable count? https://jcat.eu/product/signature-lan-cable/
19:53:55 <kmc> zzo38: i agree, things should only be wireless if there is a good reason
19:54:07 <fizzie> "Most likely the best sounding Ethernet cable available", they say.
19:54:19 <b_jonas> kmc: walking around my aparment while talking to my family is a good reason
19:54:38 <int-e> "Availalbe in 1 meter length exclusively"
19:54:39 <fizzie> "Purest silver & gold conductor offers unbelievable listening pleasure." Yeah, I certainly don't believe some of the things on this page.
19:54:40 <b_jonas> it's even better when my brother is talking to me while he's chasing his three kids
19:55:02 <kmc> my wife's work headphones are wireless and the battery is constantly running down. you can plug the headphones with an audio cable but it still uses the battery in that case
19:55:10 <kmc> so she has to borrow my dumb wired headphones
19:55:13 <int-e> fizzie: It does, except that it feels like it may be a joke.
19:55:15 <kmc> dumb because they always work ;)
19:55:31 <fizzie> "World’s best RJ45 connectors exclusive for JCAT – MFP8 IE GOLD from Japan Telegaertner Limited the same as being used at the International Space Station (ISS)". How can it be exclusive to JCAT if they also use it on the ISS?
19:56:31 <fizzie> int-e: I got to their store page from https://audiobacon.net/2019/11/02/the-jcat-signature-lan-a-1000-ethernet-cable/
19:56:35 <int-e> fizzie: the ISS is outside of the jurisdiction that determines exclusiveness
19:57:16 <fizzie> The review says you can still hear the difference even if you stream over wifi.
19:57:20 <zzo38> Sometimes you might want to apply filters, effects, mixing, etc to audio signals. Also for this purpose, I think that analog is better for wiring and digital is better for recording. (In the case of internet, it is a recording which is being received and played back on your computer, so digital is appropriate.)
19:58:05 <int-e> fizzie: maybe part of the shielding is made of piezo crystals
19:58:26 <zzo38> When it goes wrong, the ways in which it goes wrong differ depending on analog or digital, and some people may have different preferences, also different ways may be appropriate in different circumstances.
19:58:30 <int-e> (powered somehow, I don't want to overthink it)
19:59:36 <fizzie> The same shop does have a 900 € USB cable too. And yeah, it can sometimes be a little hard to know when people are serious about these things; I think they probably are (at least in the sense that they'll take your money, I mean), but I'm not about to test that hypothesis.
20:00:22 <kmc> I put it in roughly the same category as the ads I get for "5G negative orgone energy blockers"
20:00:31 <int-e> fizzie: it's the restriction to 1m length that really irritates me in the case of that ethernet cable.
20:00:42 <kmc> magic sticker you put on your phone that "blocks EMF" without, you know, affecting the functionality of the phone
20:01:02 <kmc> lots of people swear by these devices of course
20:01:04 <int-e> fizzie: I'm cynical enough to believe the rest, including the price tag
20:01:10 <kmc> but I doubt they could tell the difference if it were replaced with a placebo
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20:05:06 <fizzie> I'm using an external USB DAC, which is maybe a little bit of an "audiophile" thing to do, but that's coming from a succession of motherboard-integrated computer audio solutions™ that had actually properly audible noise, in the "I can hear when I'm moving my mouse cursor" level.
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20:05:20 <fizzie> (It's a Cambridge Audio "DacMagic Plus", which I got mostly because it's got an external volume knob and a headphone out. Although I'm a bit annoyed that the volume control is all in software, and there's no display, so it's hard to have "defaults" for the volume. I'd really like it if they'd offer those controls over the USB interface somehow.)
20:08:24 <catern> hi #esoteric, please validate that this is funny: new project: add an effect system to colorForth
20:08:55 <zzo38> catern: Do you have details?
20:09:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hyperdawg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82458&oldid=82023 * Hyperdawg * (-29)
20:09:43 <catern> zzo38: well colorforth has colors, and "what color is your function" is a classic article about effect annotations that is going again around lately
20:10:40 <zzo38> I think the different colours are used depending on definition, use, numbers, etc
20:11:37 <catern> they're completely different meanings of color
20:13:28 <catern> no-one gets my funny joke ;_;
20:13:46 <zzo38> Actually, I believe you now that you explained it
20:18:21 <catern> yo dawg, I heard you like colors, so I put colors in your colors so you can color while you color
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21:34:05 <esowiki> [[User:SoicBR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82459&oldid=77840 * SoicBR * (+106)
21:38:35 <esowiki> [[User:SoicBR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82460&oldid=82459 * SoicBR * (+132)
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23:55:01 <zzo38> I made up a PC-like code page for "old Germanic", including all runes, and a few extended Latin alphabets used for writing Old English in Latin alphabets too, and has eleven characters which are not in Unicode. I think there is one esolang that uses runes, and should work better with such an encoding rather than Unicode because it uses some characters that aren't in Unicode.
00:00:29 <zzo38> I had started writing the server code for the web interface of sqlnetnews (called sqlwebnews); posting messages is not yet implemented, but I think I implemented the rest. The client code is not implemented yyet. This is the part of the implementation which generates the HTML interface: http://sprunge.us/6oJSuA
00:02:47 <zzo38> Hopefully, you can tell me if there is something wrong with this code, or tell me which IRC channel to try. (Even if JavaScripts are disabled it can still work, since there is the NNTP link.)
00:25:54 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82461&oldid=82348 * RetroPain * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
02:02:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * New Army * New user account
02:04:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82462&oldid=82447 * New Army * (+153) /* Introductions */
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03:45:22 <zzo38> Determining the code page of a Free Hero Mesh class definition file potentially involves reading the entire file (and possibly other files too), and is not guaranteed to halt, due to using a Turing-complete preprocessor.
03:49:06 <nakilon> wtf is the "B.J." thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._J._(given_name)
03:49:57 <nakilon> I knew the B.J. Blatzkowich from the videogame, now there is a haracter in the X-files episode -- the policewoman who everyone call as "B..J."
03:52:36 <zzo38> (It can mean that a editor plugin might not be able to determine the character encoding to use. However, usually this is not a problem because usually it would be able to determine it without too much difficulty and/or the file may contain only ASCII characters anyways.)
04:27:03 <b_jonas> nakilon: b_j is just two nice letters to put into your name. especially as J. can be initial for a lot of very common names, most importantly Joseph.
04:27:22 <b_jonas> there aren't all that many letters, so you'll find combinations that are common.
04:29:49 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82463&oldid=82374 * Zzo38 * (+235) Free Hero Mesh
04:34:44 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82464&oldid=82463 * Zzo38 * (+56) It is even worse than I thought at first
04:54:16 <esowiki> [[Vyxal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82465&oldid=80255 * Lyxal * (-15)
06:10:45 <zzo38> It is actually worse than that; sometimes it is not possible to determine which other files. Also, none of this was my intention when I added this feature; it is just what I realized today.
06:12:14 <zzo38> But, fortunately, external software could use a simplified method which will work in all of the most common cases.
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10:57:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think using *some* characters that aren't in unicode is enough of a reason to not use unicode. nevertheless, I'd like to see the details about that code. do you have a link to it?
10:58:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: this is re ‘PC-like code page for "old Germanic"’
11:27:24 <int-e> Hmmmm, is UINT_64C(1)<<(63 - popcount(b-1)) the most efficient way to reflect a bit? (b is a 64 bit value with exactly one bit set).
11:33:28 <fizzie> Instead of popcount(b-1), you could just use clz/ctz/ffs/bsf/bsr/whatever you want to call it.
11:34:57 <int-e> true... mumble... too many degrees of freedom
11:36:09 <int-e> oh, clz with an off-by-one, at least for my purposes
11:36:21 <fizzie> Yeah. It's a POSIX function, short for "find first set".
11:36:48 <fizzie> Where "first" means "least significant", 1-based, and 0 if no bits are set.
11:37:50 <int-e> also hmm: https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50481
11:40:16 * int-e is pondering bitboards for Reversi for fun.
11:49:51 <fizzie> Apparently you can do a 64-bit reverse in SSE-land by splitting each nybble to a byte, using pshufb on the constant 0x0f070b030d0509010e060a020c040800 (with the nybbles as the shuffle mask) to reverse each nybble, and then collecting them back to 64 bits in reversed order. But I think that's quite unlikely to be better for reversing a known 1 bit.
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13:32:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: I wrote it on a paper and do not have it on the computer right now.
13:34:08 <zzo38> But, about the esoteric programming language that I was referring to, it is: http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E1%9A%B1%E1%9A%A2%E1%9A%BE%E1%9B%85%E1%9B%A6
13:36:52 <zzo38> However, the use of a custom encoding will reduce the file size to less than that of the Unicode representation. The pentimal runes can still be represented in the messy way mentioned there in Unicode, but they don't look good, at least on my computer. (When converting to/from Unicode, they must be converted from/to the proper codes for the pentimal runes.)
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13:44:06 <zzo38> int-e: It might depend on what instruction set you have, maybe.
13:45:13 <int-e> sure. unfortunately, x86_64 does not feature a builtin bit reversal instruction
13:51:15 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't know about RISC-V. (I remember reading about the proposed bit manipulation extension once, and I don't like it much; I think the way MMIX does it is better.)
13:52:03 <zzo38> MMIX doesn't have a bit reversal instruction either, but you can reverse the bits of an arbitrary 64-bit number with two instructions and one long constant.
14:07:29 <zzo38> MMIX also guarantees that if the shift amount is out of range that all bits are shifted out, like Glulx and some other instruction sets do, although not all do. I think that this behaviour is useful; there are a few uses for it, including to implement the ! operator of C to change 0 to 1 and other numbers to 0. (I don't know if any compiler will do this on an instruction set that supports it.)
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15:24:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: "if the shift amount is out of range" => defining shifts like that doesn't really help all that much. and this wouldn't work all that well on x86, because then you'd need an extra instruction when you want to use a single byte long shift count, because for historical reasons (z80 compatibility) single byte load or arithmetic instructions on x86 don't clear the high byte of the word
15:25:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: we already have other ways (comparisons) to change a 0 to 1 and other numbers to 0, both on MMIX and on x86: on x86 you use a TEST then a SETZ instruction
15:26:56 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82468&oldid=82461 * RetroPain * (+56)
15:29:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: that said, AVX2 and AVX512 adds vector shift instructions VPSLLVD, VPSLLVQ, VPSLLVW (and the corresponding right shifts) that do consider the full shift amount (as an unsigned value) and will zero the output if it's too large,
15:32:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, and in fact even the original SSE2 bitshift instructions PSLLW, PSLLD, PSLLQ work this way, taking a 64-bit unsigned shift count. I just never noticed this, even though I have used those instructions, but I didn't rely on that property
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15:50:13 <zzo38> OK, those considerations are valid, then. (Still, Glulx doesn't have another way to change 0 to 1 and other numbers to 0 with a single instruction, even though other instruction sets do. Also, this isn't the only case where shifting out all of the bits if the shift amount is out of range can be useful, I think.)
15:50:52 <zzo38> (Some algorithms might be optimized if they do not have to check that the shift amount is in range first, maybe.)
16:08:23 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK, here is the code page table now I put it into the computer: http://sprunge.us/dagQKR
16:13:18 <zzo38> The Free Hero Mesh preprocessor is Turing-complete even with only {define} and {call} (or only {append} and {call}), but is it Turing-complete with {define} alone or {append} alone, and/or other combinations?
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17:12:34 <zzo38> (It is (probably) possible for the name of a macro to define to come from the expansion of another macro, so maybe it is possible to use this to make it Turing-complete; I don't know.)
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17:17:12 <esowiki> [[Ss]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82469 * CatLooks * (+2805) Created page with "'''SS''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatLooks|CatLooks]]. ==Overview== Each line in '''SS''' is written in <code>int [byte]</code> style. It uses c..."
17:18:39 <esowiki> [[Ss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82470&oldid=82469 * CatLooks * (-7)
17:19:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82471&oldid=82428 * CatLooks * (+10)
17:20:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82472&oldid=82471 * CatLooks * (-1)
17:22:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82473&oldid=82472 * CatLooks * (+3)
17:24:08 <esowiki> [[User:CatLooks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82474&oldid=82466 * CatLooks * (+12)
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18:59:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dreamvoyager * New user account
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19:34:56 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82477&oldid=55531 * Xanman12321 * (+2)
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20:00:57 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82478 * Dreamvoyager * (+1184) Created page with "== RecipeScript == Recipescript is a Python-based [[Joke_language_list|joke esolang]] that can't actually be ran by any program. Instead, the compiler is the brain of whoever'..."
20:02:21 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82479&oldid=82353 * Dreamvoyager * (+84) /* General languages */
20:03:34 <esowiki> [[User:Dreamvoyager]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82480&oldid=82476 * Dreamvoyager * (+21) /* esolangs i made */
20:03:45 <esowiki> [[User:Dreamvoyager]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82481&oldid=82480 * Dreamvoyager * (+1) /* esolangs i made */
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20:05:06 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82482&oldid=82478 * Dreamvoyager * (+0) /* RecipeScript */
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20:06:14 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82483&oldid=82482 * Dreamvoyager * (+8) /* Mashed Potatoes */
20:07:48 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82484&oldid=82483 * Dreamvoyager * (+46) /* RecipeScript */
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21:06:21 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-arU.txt -- pro: they've still got a fingerd up; con: the coke machine doesn't have a .plan file any more.
21:07:47 <fizzie> (A Finnish author of popular general-audience computing-related books had published a free PDF copy of his 1995 book on what the Internet is all about, got stuck reading it.)
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21:18:42 <zzo38> I checked it once too and found the same thing
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23:15:10 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82485&oldid=82484 * Xanman12321 * (+660) added my variant :P
23:16:19 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82486&oldid=82485 * Xanman12321 * (+16)
23:17:34 <esowiki> [[Recipescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82487&oldid=82486 * Xanman12321 * (+83)
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02:55:41 <zzo38> {?} Instant ;; Choose one-- ;; - You can rearrange the order of objects in the stack. ;; - Target object in stack gains split second until it leaves the stack. ;; Entwine {?}
03:02:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: no. it shouldn't say "until it leaves the stack", and in any case that second ability is almost useless and shouldn't be on an instant.
03:02:57 <b_jonas> reoder the stack is sort of possible, but you need a very good case to want to do it, and this isn't one
03:04:14 <b_jonas> and you probably can't just have an instant that does the first thing, because it's too weak even for {U}
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03:04:48 <b_jonas> so if you want that ability, you have to find a balanced home for it
03:17:53 <zzo38> Maybe, but it has entwine, and and I can think of uses for the second ability, so it isn't entirely useless. (Split second alone, as well as madness alone, can both be useful and I have puzzles where that is the important part.) Other possibility can be to add other stuff such as cycling. But, what you suggest is another possibility, but I don't know what balanced home to find for it.
03:19:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: split second on a spell is useful, but adding it to a spell with another instant is much less useful, because you can respond to this instant
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03:23:52 <zzo38> Yes, but if you apply it to the object on the bottom, then it prevents casting other spells in between. (Still, this card could probably be improved.)
03:29:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82489&oldid=82488 * Trump Bot * (+278)
04:01:22 <zzo38> Another idea of a card I had is: {?} Instant ;; Two target permanents copy each other. Exchange control of those permanents.
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07:38:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:HyperNeutrino]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82490&oldid=82262 * HyperNeutrino * (+135) /* Moving pages */
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08:27:05 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82491&oldid=82436 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+180) /* Music */ A language called Befugue
08:55:38 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82492&oldid=82438 * RocketRace * (+388) Elaborate on fence semantics
08:57:26 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82493&oldid=82492 * RocketRace * (+2) Metropoleis are like exclusion zones
08:58:12 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82494&oldid=82493 * RocketRace * (-1) Spelling
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14:00:06 <int-e> fizzie: So I forewent the bit reversal; bswap is good enough to get me 90% of the way in context, and the extra effort for the full reversal just doesn't seem to pay off. (The idea where this comes up is when performing a move... you can figure out which stones to turn over with a ripple carry trick, but only in 4 out of the 8 directions. With bswap it's 7 out of 8; a full reversal would make it...
14:00:12 <int-e> ...work for all directions.)
14:03:22 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82495&oldid=82494 * RocketRace * (+1400) Restructure the page, increase cohesity, add golfing utilities ;)
14:07:26 <b_jonas> int-e: I'll also mention http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libecb.html , which has some bit manipulation functions, including find first and find last bit set, popcount, bit reversal (for full integers), and byteswap. I have touched these, because I contributed some code specifically about the bit ops, and I've used the byteswap multiple times.
14:09:02 <b_jonas> plus you probably know about the two relevant books. Henry S. Warren, Jr, "Hacker's Delight" second edition, it's not perfect and uses rather odd notation that annoys me in a lot of places, but it's a hard to replace book, you won't find any other with this many details, so I put up with it
14:09:12 <int-e> fwiw, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/reversi.cc is the (slightly horrible) code I have. I have not tried to make it configurable and I've only targeted i7-6850K because that's what I have at home.
14:09:29 <int-e> b_jonas: But yes, I do enjoy bit hacks a lot.
14:10:14 <b_jonas> Warren's book is also somewhat obsolete, it doesn't really consider tricks that are specific to the SIMD operations of x86 SSE2 and later x86 extensions
14:10:19 <int-e> (not sure whether there's anything interesting in that code; you can enjoy the magic constants at least)
14:10:45 <int-e> This might benefit from SSE2 stuff but I don't have the stomach for it :P
14:10:58 <b_jonas> I can help a bit with the SSE2 stuff
14:11:04 <int-e> (It's not like I actually *need* this for anything.)
14:11:04 <b_jonas> if you have specific questions that is
14:11:14 <b_jonas> yes yes, #esoteric and all
14:11:46 <int-e> I have touched SSE2 a little bit in the past, but it was never enjoyable.
14:13:54 <b_jonas> I also have the feeling that Oscar Toledo of the IOCCC fame might know a lot about bit tricks, but his code is very opaque so I don't think there's any way to *learn* those tricks from him
14:13:58 <int-e> The code is in an odd spot for the target processor. For example, I have some unpredictable conditional jumps and eliminating them makes the code... the same speed, more or less.
14:14:46 <int-e> I could replace the 64x64bit multiplication by shifts... but intel's multiplier is too good
14:15:32 <b_jonas> sure, the multiplication and float multiplication instructions are good on x86, you should use them
14:16:48 <b_jonas> there are a lot of different multiplication instructions, including four different ones that multiply vectors of 16-bit integers, I've used some of those once
14:17:04 <b_jonas> they're useful for pixel images
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14:18:04 <int-e> pixel images were a key motivation... all the way back to MMX, and even 3DNow!
14:18:39 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't see where you use 64-bit multiplication other than by constants here
14:18:55 <b_jonas> multiplication by constants is rarely worth to replace, because compilers can already optimize them when it's worth
14:19:14 <int-e> b_jonas: x*UINT64_C(0x0102040810204080) stuff
14:19:32 <b_jonas> if that can be optimized, the compiler will optimize it
14:19:35 <int-e> b_jonas: it doesn't matter, it uses the usual 64 bit integer multiplication
14:19:56 <b_jonas> it may be worth to replace a signed multiplication by an unsigned one to help such an optimization, but you're already doing unsigned
14:20:00 <int-e> *I* knmow that x is a power of 2; the compiler doesn't.
14:20:03 <b_jonas> it's rarely worth to replace it by shifts
14:20:38 <int-e> and I could compute the shift instead of the number further outside in the code
14:20:55 <int-e> using ctz instead of the x & -x bit trick
14:21:06 <int-e> I tried it, it made the code marginally slower
14:21:21 <b_jonas> I don't know if it's worth because I don't know what your code does and what its bottlenecks are
14:21:25 <b_jonas> and I probably won't try to understand it
14:21:38 <b_jonas> can you tell the goal of this code though?
14:21:44 <b_jonas> what does it try to compute?
14:21:51 <b_jonas> the state of a reversi board after a move?
14:21:57 <int-e> b_jonas: I wrote it to find shortest Reversi and Othello games
14:22:33 <int-e> And then I went off a tangent trying to speed up the code even though it already ran in a few seconds.
14:23:43 <int-e> For fun really; an AI would spend most of its time in evaluation functions, no point in shaving off a few more cycles in the move generation part.
14:26:05 <b_jonas> I mostly did experimented with SSE2 stuff for pixel images
14:26:22 <b_jonas> learned a bit about SSE2 and the later instruction set, as well as some existing libraries
14:26:37 <int-e> that makes a lot more sense too, you have a clear per-pixel operation and immediate payoffs in terms of parallelism
14:26:43 <b_jonas> I might be able to use some of that for a future job
14:27:55 <b_jonas> though I do have to be careful not to do something so similar to the previous job where I learned about this that it gets too close to stealing
14:29:32 <b_jonas> sometimes I also wonder if I should try to make a quasi-esoteric or toy array language that's optimized for image processing
14:30:53 <b_jonas> but that probably won't happen
14:32:52 <b_jonas> mostly because if I do want to work on esoteric languages, I'
14:32:59 <b_jonas> ll probably work on Consumer Society first
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14:34:59 <int-e> Hmmm. My last foray into SSE territory was almost a year ago for https://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/May2020.html
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14:36:34 <int-e> which ultimately failed to speed things up: https://gist.github.com/int-e/8e606cd6e3eeb2d8b4296cbb21d6515f
14:37:42 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82496&oldid=82495 * RocketRace * (+1439) Hello, world!
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14:54:39 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82497&oldid=82496 * RocketRace * (+21) grapheme cluster recommendation!
14:59:25 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82498&oldid=82497 * RocketRace * (+130) Expand fib explanation
14:59:53 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82499&oldid=82498 * RocketRace * (-1) semicolon
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19:34:49 <esowiki> [[PenisScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82500&oldid=79505 * Rdebath * (+43) Done before.
19:41:40 <esowiki> [[PenisScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82501&oldid=82500 * Rdebath * (+413) Add TBS interpreter
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21:15:27 <zzo38> Can you find a Turing-complete subset of the use of built-in macros of the Free Hero Mesh preprocessor other than {define} and {call} or {append} and {call}? I mentioned the possibility of {define} alone, although I do have have a proof or disproof of this. Are there others?
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01:52:30 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82502&oldid=82491 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+73) /* Music */ Befugue
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04:28:31 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82503&oldid=81840 * Digital Hunter * (+388) /* Example programs */ added a collatz sequence program
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05:13:35 <shachaf> Are there any modern compilers that statically allocate local variables instead of using a stack?
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08:08:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fugue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82504&oldid=40616 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+667) /* Black MIDI */
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08:16:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82505&oldid=82155 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+209)
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08:42:03 <esowiki> [[ForgottenV]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82506 * Supyovalk * (+713) Created page with "ForgottenV is EsoLang made in 2021 by yuvalk. ==Summary== ForgottenV works like c,but with a twist:upon variable declaration,every N instructions afterword(N is a number rando..."
08:43:03 <esowiki> [[ForgottenV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82507&oldid=82506 * Supyovalk * (+24)
08:43:34 <esowiki> [[ForgottenV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82508&oldid=82507 * Supyovalk * (+12)
08:43:57 <esowiki> [[User:Supyovalk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82509 * Supyovalk * (+20) Created page with "Hello! im Supyovalk."
08:45:04 <esowiki> [[User:Supyovalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82510&oldid=82509 * Supyovalk * (+36)
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10:37:19 <int-e> shachaf: how would that be beneficial?
10:37:52 <int-e> C has a static keyword of course :P
10:42:14 <int-e> The first thing that I see is a downside: in most cases this will result in worse locality. You get better control over alignment, I suppose.
10:42:47 <int-e> You may expect a small improvement from not allocating a stack frame for tail functions, but there are hot zones for that...
10:43:00 <int-e> (depending on the ABI, of course)
10:51:53 <int-e> shachaf: oh maybe this is a thing for targets without good stack support, say DSPs or GPUs.
11:25:31 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82511&oldid=82408 * SunnyMoon * (-11) Further golfing
11:25:59 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82512&oldid=82511 * SunnyMoon * (+6) oops
11:29:09 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82513&oldid=82512 * SunnyMoon * (-3) Not needed
11:37:24 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82514&oldid=78126 * SunnyMoon * (-6) Whenever I grow up I feel my past self was very dumb
11:53:41 <b_jonas> fungot, should we start using the word "respectless" instead of the longer "disrespectful"?
11:53:41 <fungot> b_jonas: i blame eggdrop for not accepting a ' void'
11:57:04 <b_jonas> how about "dainless" instead of "disdainful" then, fungot?
11:57:05 <fungot> b_jonas: i'm really eating now. away. another fnord came, we thought the government took you down.
11:57:11 <int-e> . o O ( Das wäre der englischen Sprache gegenüber disrespektvoll. )
11:58:25 <int-e> hmm https://trydev.itch.io/7-turns-to-drown isn't hard but kind of cute
12:06:29 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82515&oldid=82514 * SunnyMoon * (+136) Stack counter
12:07:57 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82516&oldid=82515 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Oh wait
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12:27:33 <esowiki> [[The Esoteric File Archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82517&oldid=57509 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Known mirrors */ Update Url
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12:45:09 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82518&oldid=76274 * SunnyMoon * (+69) This fits on the page I guess
12:50:41 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82519&oldid=82518 * SunnyMoon * (+108) ... or at least it is what I think.
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13:05:53 <esowiki> [[Vyxal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82520&oldid=82465 * Lyxal * (-25) Updated the fizzbuzz
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14:52:02 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82521&oldid=77516 * Dion * (-3569)
14:53:17 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82522&oldid=82521 * Dion * (+24)
14:53:39 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82523&oldid=82522 * Dion * (+2)
14:54:31 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82524&oldid=82523 * Dion * (+51)
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16:34:23 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1233.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:34:45 <shachaf> int-e: Well, this is #esoteric, so it doesn't have to be beneficial.
16:36:32 <shachaf> But I'm wondering about an environment with no stack at all. You'd need to ban recursion, be careful with multithreading (if you support it at all), and figure out a calling convention (I suppose return addresses could be statically allocated as well).
16:42:25 <fizzie> That rings a bell of some sort. But it may have been something ancient, where AIUI that sort of thing was more common.
16:42:59 <fizzie> (I imagine that's why you said "modern".)
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16:49:43 <fizzie> I may be thinking of OpenCL, which does ban recursion.
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16:57:52 <shachaf> I think MIX's calling convention was based on self-modifying code.
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17:32:07 <oerjan> int-e: dammit i should have mentioned my hunch that martellus would be there...
17:33:14 <oerjan> he's definitely tempting fate in that second panel :P
17:33:56 <oerjan> first panel, last bubble
17:38:38 <oerjan> wait a minute that olist is old
17:39:49 <oerjan> my browser showed me the cached archive page
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17:55:59 <int-e> oerjan: so what do you think the bears will think of Queen Cat?
18:04:09 <oerjan> well she wasn't made by vapnoople
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18:05:03 <oerjan> then again, the bears didn't react badly toward krosp when he betrayed him
18:05:23 <oerjan> so it's not clear what their loyalty is based on
18:07:01 <oerjan> hm one theory i haven't mentioned is that the reason krosp _could_ betray vapnoople (which surprised him) is that someone has done something to remove his control. perhaps albia, and then she may have done it to the bears as well.
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18:07:42 <oerjan> it seems like a logical thing for her to do in the circumstances
18:09:59 <oerjan> (it has been mentioned that when she needs to manipulate people's minds, she prefers to do it stealthily)
18:14:07 <oerjan> also either queen cat is underestimating krosp or martellus has made her fiendishly smart
18:15:09 <oerjan> but he wasn't at his best behavior when she met him
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18:55:17 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82525&oldid=80665 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) /* Level 7 */ Initialized
19:33:10 <esowiki> [[ForgottenV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82526&oldid=82508 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+93) Cats and /* Example */
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20:22:32 <zzo38> I think LLVM has a command for banning recursion
20:49:25 <imode> if you cleaved an unlambda program at any point into two, would both halves be valid unlambda programs.
20:53:03 <int-e> no, it's a prefix code, so the first part would always be incomplete
20:54:27 <imode> incomplete, sure, but still a valid program? on second thought.. a bunch of `s wouldn't be technically valid.
20:57:00 <fizzie> You can use Jot if you want that property. But maybe that'd be cheating, since everything is a valid Jot program.
20:57:42 <imode> another esolanger and I are looking to make a "pure concatenative" variant of unlambda.
20:57:50 <imode> or I guess just studying it.
20:59:09 <imode> meaning that cleaving a program in half at every logical point gives you two valid programs, and that the internal state of the interpreter represents a valid program as well (with no translation to some kind of internal tree/data structure).
21:01:32 <int-e> cpressey was on a similar track a while ago, maybe a year ago by now
21:02:23 <imode> yeah I've been chasing their efforts.
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21:25:12 <imode> if you turned it into a postfix code just by reversing it, wonder if that would change anything.
23:13:54 <int-e> imode: You just run into reverse(a+b) = reverse(b) + reverse(a), don't you?
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