00:00:20 <fizzie> BBC stream is a bit late too.
00:00:29 <fizzie> More than a minute, less than two.
00:00:30 <b_jonas> happy new year UK, Portugal, Iceland, and everyone in UTC+0
00:03:45 <fizzie> They're doing a drone show instead of the traditional fireworks.
00:04:08 <fizzie> It kinda leaked out early because they had to do an aviation traffic thingie to fly 300 drones in formation.
00:05:35 <b_jonas> wait what? isn't that a Marvel movie plot?
00:06:04 <b_jonas> with the bad buy controlling the drones
00:06:29 <fizzie> Mmaybe? But they've been doing these for a while now in reality too.
00:06:40 <b_jonas> I mean how long battery time
00:06:53 <fizzie> I don't know, but this show takes just 10 minutes or so.
00:07:20 <b_jonas> 10 minutes. but with, I assume, brighter than usual led lighting.
00:07:29 <b_jonas> that shouldn't be too heavy
00:07:30 <fizzie> They're really just one of those RGB LED screens, except you can move the pixels around.
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00:09:38 <fizzie> Looks like they're doing a little bit of regular fireworks too, just not as much as usual, and with no spectators around.
00:12:43 <kmc> not sure what my city's doing tonight
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01:46:41 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79755&oldid=79746 * Tetrapyronia * (+18) year
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02:28:50 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79756&oldid=75412 * Digital Hunter * (+24) /* About me */
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04:02:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:SELENE.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79757 * Quintopia * (+486) Q's
04:59:21 <zzo38> Do you have feature requests for Free Hero Mesh or any of my other software projects?
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05:06:51 <zzo38> Does analog television work with the common hobbyist level SDR sticks?
05:33:09 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79758&oldid=79755 * Tetrapyronia * (+285) (hopefully?) fixed specifications
05:36:37 <kmc> zzo38: no, I don't think so. standard NTSC has a 6 MHz bandwidth, PAL is about the same, and the RTL-SDR sticks max out around 2.4 MHz
05:36:41 <kmc> maybe you could use two
05:39:19 <kmc> the chip they use is actually a digital TV tuner chip (https://www.realtek.com/en/products/communications-network-ics/item/rtl2832u)
05:39:57 <kmc> but the raw I/Q output mode, which enables its myriad hobbyist uses as a cheap SDR receiver, doesn't support the full bandwidth of a TV signal
05:41:01 <zzo38> O, OK. Do you know if any SDR has a hardware switch to disable transmit in case you want to receive only, even if it is capable to transmit if you activate that switch?
05:41:06 <kmc> maybe due to USB limitations, I'm not sure
05:42:05 <kmc> in the original use case for the chip, the I/Q mode is used for audio broadcast reception (FM/DAB)
05:42:15 <kmc> zzo38: I don't know
05:42:27 <kmc> but many of them have separate ports for transmit and receive
05:42:34 <kmc> for example my bladeRF has
05:43:15 <kmc> so if you want to disable transmit, you could leave the TX port open or, ideally, attach an impedance-matched dummy load
05:43:34 <kmc> although, dummy loads aren't perfectly shielded and a very nearby radio might still be able to hear it
05:44:23 <kmc> I don't know if any SDR has a hardware switch to disable the TX frontend, although it seems like a good thing to have and should also be easy to do
05:46:11 <kmc> the output power of the bladeRF is low to begin with (6 dBm, or about 4 mW)
05:46:36 <kmc> in many cases you would feed that into an external amplifier, and could effectively disable transmit by disconnecting or removing power from that
05:50:34 <kmc> then again, people manage to send signals around the globe on milliwatts
05:50:55 <kmc> with the right combination of good antenna, good conditions, and very slow data rate
05:55:53 <kmc> QRSS is a fairly esoteric idea
05:56:20 <kmc> sending/receiving morse code at a speed where a single dot takes 1-5 minutes
05:59:09 <kmc> generally not done by hand/ear!
05:59:18 <kmc> would require quite a bit of patience
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06:06:13 <zzo38> I haven't heard of that before now (unless I did and I had forgot)
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08:11:18 * Taneb is thinking about making an OEIS account
08:15:23 <moony> Fixing to obtain a Propeller 1
08:15:41 <moony> it's successor resembles an esoteric CPU. but it isn't and it's amazing
08:21:31 <Taneb> The sequence I want to add to OEIS begins "15, 353, 143, 323, 899, 1763, 3599"
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08:35:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:SELENE.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79759&oldid=79757 * Quintopia * (+144) question
09:08:55 <b_jonas> it's actually 2021. can you beleive it?
09:09:19 <HackEso> 2021-01-01 09:09:18.881 +0000 UTC January 1 Friday 2020-W53-5
09:09:29 <HackEso> 2021-01-01 10:09:29.470 +0100 CET January 1 Friday 2020-W53-5
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09:33:08 <moony> b_jonas: install sdate, run `sdate -e 2020-12`, and be revealed the truth: it's dec 32nd
09:41:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TehChar1337 * New user account
09:45:52 <b_jonas> also the Wiener Philharmoniker new year concert is going to start in half an hour. I'm preparing so I can watch it uninterrupted.
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09:47:53 <HackEso> sdate? No such file or directory
09:50:39 <moony> https://github.com/df7cb/sdate
09:54:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79760&oldid=79716 * TehChar1337 * (+467) /* Introductions */
10:09:16 <b_jonas> TV is now broadcasting ads before it
10:10:10 <b_jonas> and right now I'm trying to make sure that I've got the FM radio set up correctly as a fallback in case there's a problem with the internet TV
10:10:30 <b_jonas> but they're just playing music so it's hard to tell that it's the right channel
10:11:38 <b_jonas> conveniently the internet TV will be delayed a bit, so if it fails, I can quickly switch to the radio and, in theory, not miss anything, though of course it's not nice to have music interrupted that way
10:14:12 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79761&oldid=79758 * Tetrapyronia * (-2)
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10:15:25 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79762&oldid=79761 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
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10:15:33 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUb7eJttOPg
10:15:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79763&oldid=79759 * Tetrapyronia * (+183)
10:15:36 <b_jonas> anyone wants to guess what the very last ad before the concert will be?
10:15:57 <b_jonas> it was a very short ad for cheese
10:16:19 <b_jonas> (may be spelled different)
10:17:05 <b_jonas> ah yes, and there's an ad within the concert, copied from the stream from Wien:
10:17:18 <b_jonas> an overlay of "presented by: Rolex"
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10:21:59 <b_jonas> that was a weird waltz that I've never heard before, but its style matches my expectations for this concert
10:22:12 <b_jonas> empty concert hall is so weird
10:22:19 <b_jonas> would never expect that for this concert
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10:22:54 <b_jonas> stage is still very crowded with musicians
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10:23:04 <b_jonas> looks like they'd need a bit larger stage
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10:23:28 <b_jonas> I mean crowded even for pre-2020 standards
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10:26:10 <b_jonas> video is showing old automated music instruments in operation, I failed to catch which museum they're from
10:26:19 <b_jonas> care to guess which castle the ballet will be in this time?
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10:28:27 <b_jonas> must be that one big museum featured on that youtube channel, there probably aren't many that have this large a collection
10:28:50 <b_jonas> and that weird four-violin automatic violin player setup in particular
10:29:27 <b_jonas> with four violins inside the rotating circular bow, each violin pressed into it when the corresponding string is supposed to play
10:29:58 <b_jonas> I don't recall what city that museum is in but I'll look it up on youtube later
10:31:09 <b_jonas> I think it was in Köln or nearby
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10:32:56 <b_jonas> dubbing announcer says museum in Wien
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10:33:23 <b_jonas> the Techniches Museum even. I've been to that museum, there's no way it has these automated instruments
10:33:28 <b_jonas> I'll have to look these up
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10:38:15 <b_jonas> hehe, nice moving moire pattern as the moving camera in the far end of the hall shows the organ with its rhythm of vertical pipes
10:38:31 <b_jonas> (might be visible only in low res)
10:39:32 <b_jonas> anyone else watching or listening live?
10:41:18 <b_jonas> I wish TVs didn't insist on having an always visible channel logo overlay. It made sense back in the analog TV days so you can easily tell which channel you tuned in, but these days with digital and internet TV it's rather redundant, they always put the channel name as meta-information anyway
10:42:12 <b_jonas> there's probably even a standard to send the logo as meta-info so the TV can display the list of channels in one of these silly icon mosic formats
10:42:35 <b_jonas> I've no idea, I almost never watch actual TV
10:42:57 <b_jonas> I don't even have a TV tuner of any sort
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10:44:25 <b_jonas> (maybe someone is watching, but not paying attention to IRC at the same time)
10:46:16 <b_jonas> look, the stage is so crowded that some musicians are sitting in these shallow cubbies right next to the wall. isn't that actually bad for accoustics?
10:46:32 <b_jonas> like, not terribad, but something they'd avoid in sucha high quality professional concert
10:48:04 <b_jonas> standing, rather then sitting, because they're playing the double bass
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11:47:09 <b_jonas> it's also eerie how, as there's no audience, there's very little applause between the tracks, only the musicians applaud
11:47:35 <b_jonas> I can't imagine how the Radetzky march will go without audience applause
11:48:33 <b_jonas> ballet is present, I didn't catch the location, but maybe they'll announce it afterwards
11:52:19 <int-e> fungot: are we all there?
11:52:20 <fungot> int-e: oh. arcus! ' til the last moments... it seems that
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12:06:37 <b_jonas> I approve of the choice of music after the recess
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12:21:50 <b_jonas> ooh! they're playing audience applaud sounds right now, the dub announcer says they're from people who submitted and sent the applause in advance
12:22:02 <b_jonas> and showing photos of those viewers who sent them in
12:22:19 <b_jonas> (also musicians' approval obviously)
12:25:24 <b_jonas> conductor is talking in English
12:26:36 <b_jonas> pity they're dubbing it over
12:26:56 <b_jonas> (I'm watching in Hungarian television; will try to get the original ORF stream later)
12:27:18 <b_jonas> he's giving a rather long speech
12:28:04 <b_jonas> the dubbing is bad btw, the announcer isn't a reporter but not an interpreter and so translating it bad
12:40:11 <b_jonas> what is the red pin badge on the conductor's lapel?
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12:43:40 <b_jonas> the concert was good, high quality as usual, I enjoyed it,
12:43:56 <b_jonas> but the ending was a downer because they had to play the Radetzky marsh without audience applause
12:55:38 <b_jonas> internet answers that the location of the ballet was https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palais_Liechtenstein_(F%C3%BCrstengasse)
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14:06:55 <esowiki> [[Hot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79764 * Hakerh400 * (+2854) +[[Hot]]
14:07:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79765&oldid=79747 * Hakerh400 * (+10) +[[Hot]]
14:07:58 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79766&oldid=79764 * Hakerh400 * (+56)
14:11:44 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79767&oldid=79766 * Hakerh400 * (-19)
14:12:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79768&oldid=79752 * Hakerh400 * (+41)
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14:20:08 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79769&oldid=79767 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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15:58:29 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79770&oldid=76861 * Maxi * (+597) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
16:01:08 <esowiki> [[User:TehChar1337]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79771 * TehChar1337 * (+42) Created page with "I am the creator of the PureHell language."
16:01:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:TehChar1337]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79772 * TehChar1337 * (+28) Created page with "Discuss here about PureHell!"
16:02:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79773&oldid=79770 * Maxi * (+0) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
16:26:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ALotOfKelp * New user account
17:14:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79774&oldid=79773 * Maxi * (-11) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
17:25:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:C2BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79775&oldid=60726 * Maxi * (+146)
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17:41:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79776&oldid=79760 * HVMarci * (+39)
17:42:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79777&oldid=79776 * HVMarci * (+81)
17:43:03 <esowiki> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79778&oldid=68786 * HVMarci * (+41) Link to rule 110 wiki page
18:16:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79779&oldid=79774 * Maxi * (-171) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
18:28:46 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79780&oldid=79779 * Maxi * (+171) Undo revision 79779 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxi|Maxi]] ([[User talk:Maxi|talk]])
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19:11:24 <arseniiv> <fizzie> They've got a conventional orchestra playing an arrangement of Darude's Sandstorm to celebrate. => wow neat!
19:12:52 <arseniiv> HNY to everyone who wants late congratulations too!
19:13:40 <arseniiv> let us all be happier, smarter, nicer and braver this year
19:13:59 <rain1> you're asking a lot but ill try
19:14:16 <arseniiv> let all the problems be less obstinate and go away easier
19:17:58 <arseniiv> I want to get a constant income at last and somehow have more geographically near acquaintances who are interested or knowledgeable in the same as me, as I believe that’s the only effective way to have a job you like without hassle and luck
19:19:51 <arseniiv> as of now, I know nice and beautiful people but they are all this and that far away. That’s not a problem in itself but that’s a huge dent in a socialization I ended up with and I don’t particularly know yet how to fix it
19:21:20 <arseniiv> (of course I have relatives and their friends but they are all not mathematical or CS-y or techy almost at all. That’s a big problem as they lean on me for math- or computer-related things and I need to be better at them myself!)
19:21:43 <arseniiv> hopefully a condition like this is uncommon amongst people!
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19:38:09 <arseniiv> I think I’m genuniely relieved when I know someone is not having this or that issue I have, that’s a weird kind of empathy if it is
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20:28:02 <esowiki> [[FILO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79781 * Qpliu * (+2389) Created page with "FILO is a stack-based programming language. A FILO program consists of a set of function definitions. ==Syntax== program = definitions ; definitions = definition, { d..."
20:28:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79782&oldid=79765 * Qpliu * (+11) /* F */
20:47:23 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79783&oldid=79769 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) cats /* I/O format */
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00:27:26 <Arcorann> https://nitter.snopyta.org/hikari_no_yume/status/1344961327375261698#m
00:47:25 <zzo38> Probably some programming languages do what is suggested there, yes hardware especially but there are other possibilities too. In some cases they might have a variable length; this can be useful, to use operations that work with numbers in addition to operations on vectors of booleans. Such operations are useful in some programs, whether the length is fixed or variable.
00:49:25 <zzo38> JavaScript has a unlimited integer type, although as far as I know they didn't add operations yet such as popcount and ctz, which would be useful to have. (For example, it can be one way to implement a free list of numbers, using the lowest number which is not yet in use.)
01:10:23 <esowiki> [[Chain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79784&oldid=45899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Cats, Stub
01:17:07 <esowiki> [[FILO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79785&oldid=79781 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) cat /* References */
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01:30:41 <esowiki> [[User:Pelirodri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79787&oldid=79786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) oops Undo revision 79786 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
01:49:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you mean clz instead of ctz? ctz is somewhat useless because you can easily compute it if you have either popcount or clz, but clz is actually more useful than either ctz or popcount in practice. (ctz instruction in cpus still makes sense, but that's a bit different.)
01:50:12 <b_jonas> I don't know about these in javascript though. I know python has clz for its (arbitrary length) integers, and popcount in more recent versions too.
01:54:49 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79788&oldid=74620 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) Rather /* Power */
03:08:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: I know that ctz can be implemented in terms of popcount, so we don't need both, although still it allows it to be done in less operations.
03:10:42 <zzo38> I don't know what Python has, though.
03:12:45 <zzo38> (MMIX has a instruction to compute popcount(x&~y); I don't know what other instruction sets have a instruction to do the same thing in a single instruction.)
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03:58:39 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79789&oldid=78983 * Digital Hunter * (+96)
04:00:33 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79790&oldid=79789 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Using the jump instruction */
05:58:11 <esowiki> [[Hot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79791&oldid=79783 * Tetrapyronia * (+15) Fixed F reduction
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06:31:12 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79792&oldid=79156 * CatIsFluffy * (+4)
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06:59:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: x86 has had clz and ctz instructions since the 386; it gained a popcount instruction only "recently", I think between AVX and AVX2
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07:00:43 <b_jonas> x86 also added some new variants of the clz and ctz instructions "recently", for low-level reasons
07:03:01 <b_jonas> as in, the 386 ctz/clz instructions keep the old value of the output register if the input is 0, which is a false dependency that hurts performance even if your inputs are always nonzero, so they added a prefixed variant that doesn't do this, but afaik don't yet have a cpu model where that variant is actually implemented without the false dependency, it's just for the future
07:03:28 <b_jonas> but take "future" with a grain of sand, I don't keep up with latest tech
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07:21:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but I mean specifically popcount(x&~y) like MMIX has, not just a general popcount instruction.
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07:54:07 <zzo38> One idea of a chess variant can be, you are allowed to capture your own pieces if they are in your opponent's half of the board. (Capturing opponent's pieces is not restricted by what half of the board they are in.)
08:02:50 <Arcorann> Would that really change the game that much though?
08:09:25 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79793&oldid=79791 * Tetrapyronia * (+5) skipped a step
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10:06:13 <esowiki> [[Hot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79794&oldid=79793 * Hakerh400 * (+13296) Add an example
10:16:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: popcnt(x&~y) => firstly MMIX has that because it saves an instruction if you compute ctz or similar, while on x86 that's not true; secondly MMIX is a RISC with that instruction designed into it from the start as one of the many integer arithmetic instructions that all take two inputs, while on x86 popcnt was one of the first weirdo instructions whose effect is just arithmetic on general registers
10:16:18 <b_jonas> but is encoded like a vector instruction.
10:17:41 <b_jonas> x86 later added more such instrucions, but popcnt was one of the first two
10:18:12 <b_jonas> admittedly the vector encoding doesn't matter all that much, it can still naturally take two inputs
10:18:24 <b_jonas> (two inputs besides keeping flags)
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10:43:23 <shachaf> int-e: Just got back to Hiding Spot to try 609 again.
10:43:35 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to be able to do this? https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2021-01-02-024253_3840x2160.png
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10:49:22 <shachaf> Except it was an accident. :-(
10:51:54 <shachaf> I mean, not just random keypresses, but it took me by surprise, I wasn't expecting it to happen at that moment.
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12:24:47 <b_jonas> when you glue wood or weld steel, the glue or weld joints are as strong or stronger than the wood and steel itself, so such objects are more likely to break somewhere in the wood or steel than split apart at the glued or welded joints.
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12:26:54 <b_jonas> indeed, most solid wood beams that you buy are made of glued pieces of wood, for more efficient use of material, but this doesn't matter for basically any use. because of this, it's natural to ask why we are even using wood and steel, rather than just making those objects out of glue and weld instead. for wood, this has indeed already happened: solid wood is now rare and expensive, most furniture is
12:27:00 <b_jonas> made of particleboard, which is made mostly of glue, with some sawdust inside for some reason, and the outside usually laminated with plastic.
12:28:37 <b_jonas> I don't know much about steel, so I can't really speculate about that. welding is a difficult skill so it's expensive, but then so is machining steel, so I think you only gain anything if you can weld your steel objects from cheap pre-made shape of parts like sheets or pipes with little change.
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12:33:59 <b_jonas> most other methods of attaching physical objects don't seem to be as strong. while screws and bolts and nails themselves won't break, objects with screw joints will often break at those joints more easily rather then elsewhere in the material. plastic objects often break between parts that were molded separately.
12:35:55 <b_jonas> sewing textile can be as strong as the fabric itself, but only when you do it really well, not in most typical cases in commercially made clothes, so those clothes do often break at sewed joints. and if you do carry this out to extreme and make the entire clothing from good sewing rather than fabric, then I think you get something like crocheting or machine knitting, which is actually used for clothing,
12:37:23 <b_jonas> stiches that doctors put into a human body aren't always reliable either, as I sadly found out on my own example.
12:38:21 <b_jonas> I think rubber can be glued in a way that's as strong as the original rubber, but I'm not sure of the details
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14:23:44 <rain1> https://hackaday.com/2021/01/01/number-bases-stretch-the-mind/
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20:28:42 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79795&oldid=77825 * Palaiologos * (-36238) remove outdated stuff, changelog entries.
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20:44:27 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79796&oldid=79795 * Palaiologos * (+4237) example program
20:50:42 <esowiki> [[Gisa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79797 * Palaiologos * (+1566) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=Gisa |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Palaiologos|Palaiologos]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=register,cell,stack |class=T..."
20:51:03 <esowiki> [[Gisa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79798&oldid=79797 * Palaiologos * (-15) spell it with an uppercase letter
20:51:53 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79799&oldid=76705 * Palaiologos * (+54) asm2ws/Gisa mention
20:52:08 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79800&oldid=79796 * Palaiologos * (+43) mention Gisa and Brainfuck in see-also
20:57:24 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79801&oldid=79800 * Palaiologos * (-53) change the phrasing of the first paragraph
21:00:09 <esowiki> [[User:NicksterSand]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79802 * NicksterSand * (+120) Created page with "Hi, I'm Nick Sandison. I've only made one language and I'm not sure if I'll ever make any more ==Languages== [[C Flat]]"
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09:28:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nailuj29 * New user account
09:30:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79803&oldid=79777 * Nailuj29 * (+31) hi
09:31:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79804&oldid=79803 * Nailuj29 * (+85) I forgetted signature
10:03:38 <esowiki> [[Length]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79805 * Nailuj29 * (+2761) Create
10:11:58 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79806&oldid=79782 * Nailuj29 * (+13) Add my esolang
10:12:28 <esowiki> [[User:Nailuj29]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79807 * Nailuj29 * (+17) Created page with "I made [[Length]]"
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14:18:58 <esowiki> [[Blarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79808&oldid=76268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) Categories, link
14:19:27 <esowiki> [[Blarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79809&oldid=79808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) Cat, stub
14:20:35 <esowiki> [[Ghoti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79810&oldid=74936 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Cat
14:24:01 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79811&oldid=79805 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) Cats, headers
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16:15:52 <rain1> https://projecteuler.net/problem=233 fun one, i think i got a good soln will code it up
16:19:06 <andrew_esolangs> language ideas which were never good enough number 1: brainfuck but + and - are random
16:19:26 <andrew_esolangs> you may get what the operation says or nothing at all, typically at a set probability
16:37:25 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79812&oldid=79811 * Nailuj29 * (+86)
16:40:10 <b4er> Yeah, brainfuck definitely is not tarpit enough. I'd love to have to check each +/- operation whether it succeeded haha
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16:50:48 <andrew_esolangs> number 2: BF except the tape is only left-infinite, and one can cut it or wrap finite tape segments around to form "circles"
16:57:38 <kspalaiologos> opinions so far on the whitespace omnitool? https://github.com/kspalaiologos/asm2ws
16:57:44 <kspalaiologos> i want to post it on the wiki soon-ish with some code examples
17:10:12 <b_jonas> GDQ with the runners streaming from their home, it's so weird
17:13:25 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I don't understand, where's the reference documentation for what source code the asm2bf accepts?
17:13:53 <b_jonas> is there a documentation that lists what operations there are etc?
17:14:48 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, i decided that hosting the documentation on the esolang wiki is pointless, as it's inside the linked PDF anyways. I don't really want to fragment the documentation all that much
17:15:12 <kspalaiologos> i'm not settled on everything so I _may_ put the documentation back, but I've heard people complaining that the article goes on forever, and nobody actually read it
17:15:35 <kspalaiologos> so I decided some examples are enough to show the basic concept of asm2bf, and a link to a very detailed document will just top it off
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17:44:45 <fizzie> Ooh, a GDQ. Hadn't noticed.
17:45:01 <fizzie> Wasn't the last one already home-streaming?
17:47:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pillig * New user account
17:49:32 <andrew_esolangs> actually good language idea: turning tarpit that can also change the order of the "wheel"
17:51:18 <andrew_esolangs> turning tarpit: category of turing tarpit which has two instructions, rotate the wheel and execute the instruction on the wedge of the wheel that the IP is looking at
17:51:30 <andrew_esolangs> the wheel is the cyclic list of actual operations in the language
17:51:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79813&oldid=79804 * Pillig * (+189) /* Introductions */
17:56:24 <esowiki> [[MISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79814&oldid=79335 * Pillig * (+150) replace dead links with wayback links
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18:14:39 <esowiki> [[User:Pillig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79815 * Pillig * (+97) create
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19:12:34 <esowiki> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79816&oldid=67337 * Palaiologos * (+204) v0.3 additions (from http://web.archive.org/web/20150618184706/http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/tutorial.php)
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20:47:17 <esowiki> [[Gene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79817&oldid=79647 * Sinthorion * (+0)
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21:41:40 * int-e wonders how many post-story bonus problems EXAPUNKS has.
21:42:57 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play n-step Steve? https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
21:47:40 <int-e> the year is 20XX, X approximately 20, so we're talking around 202020 here?
21:49:15 <fizzie> int-e: I just finished those.
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21:50:09 <fizzie> The thing I liked about EXAPUNKS over TIS-100 is that the boxes weren't limited to 10 or so lines. (And overall size limit generally wasn't an issue.)
21:51:10 <shachaf> Oh, wow. I was stuck on the first star for a while, even after figuring out the mechanic you're supposed to figure out for it.
21:51:21 <shachaf> Because I thought I had to do something much more complicated.
21:56:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79818&oldid=55523 * CatIsFluffy * (+2002) /* Explicit example of a translated register machine */ new section
22:40:32 <int-e> shachaf: kitties are easy, no star yet
22:41:17 <int-e> fizzie: Will there be more than 4 tasks?
22:42:03 <int-e> I guess one per (other) chat member would make sense. That would be 9.
22:44:14 <fizzie> Since you asked, yes, there's 9, but the last one's actually with Moss, and has a bit of a story content.
22:44:32 <fizzie> The next batch of 4 unlock when you've done the first 4, and the last one when you've done all 8.
22:46:43 <fizzie> One of the penultimate 4 I've got a real overcomplicated and crappy solution which actually didn't fit in the size limit, but it still counts as solved, you just don't get a leaderboard entry without being within the limit.
22:47:15 <int-e> yeah not having to golf the initial solution is really refreshing
22:48:28 <int-e> (That's my main grief about Shenzhen I/O... you can only fit so many parts on the PCB and then you're stuck with 15 or so instructions for the large DSP)
22:49:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I found that part annoying too. Also a bonus: you can put in some comments and use blank lines.
22:50:42 <int-e> Yeah I've done that to visually separate the various tasks spawned off the same EXA
22:51:40 <int-e> Anyway, if there are only 9 bonus tasks I might actually do them. Something to look forward to.
22:51:47 <int-e> If there were 30 I wouldn't want to start.
22:52:15 <fizzie> I was in that last set of fours before I first used the MODE instruction in a solution.
22:53:09 <int-e> I did enjoy the main story though.
22:53:24 <int-e> fizzie: wow, that... impresses me actually
22:53:53 <fizzie> I just thought "can't be bothered to keep track of which mode I'm in, I'll just do without".
22:54:08 <fizzie> I did use the mode *switch* though, to use local mode in a few levels.
22:54:23 <fizzie> I wonder if Chatsubo is a Neuromancer reference.
22:54:27 <fizzie> (It's a bar in the book.)
22:54:45 <int-e> Oh I missed that, but it probably is. :)
22:55:23 <fizzie> "'It’s not like I’m using,' Case heard someone say, as he shouldered his way through the crowd around the door of the Chat. 'It's like my body's developed this massive drug deficiency.' It was a Sprawl voice and a Sprawl joke. The Chatsubo was a bar for professional expatriates; you could drink there for a week and never hear two words in Japanese."
22:55:28 <fizzie> (Is how the book starts.)
22:55:52 <int-e> Yeah, I've read the book(s) :)
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23:00:51 <shachaf> Wow, some of these stars are ridiculous.
23:01:12 <shachaf> Two stars here right next to each other on opposite sides of the corridor.
23:03:08 <fizzie> I did find the writing of the chat logs real realistic though. :)
23:03:29 <fizzie> (Wonder if Zach spends any time in the IRCs.)
23:11:05 <shachaf> Oh, this is much shorter than I thought. Shorter than the last game. I guess it's just the first part.
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00:38:48 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79819&oldid=77549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Resources */ See also
00:40:46 <esowiki> [[Correct Syntax Error]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79820&oldid=53305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Header levels
00:52:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the last one was also streaming from home
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02:08:30 <int-e> shachaf: I've realized that I'm missing a part of the map...
02:09:08 <shachaf> I haven't figured out how to go north or south from the room before the ending.
02:11:04 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png I'm missing the exits to the top and the bottom of the kitty
02:11:27 <shachaf> Yes, that's the area I mean, I think.
02:13:15 <shachaf> I see exits to the north and south of that room but I don't know how to get to them.
02:13:33 <shachaf> The north one has a lock on it, hmm.
02:13:41 <shachaf> Maybe it becomes accessible when you get all the stars?
02:13:44 <int-e> Yeah that says you need 15 stars
02:13:50 <int-e> if you move near the lock
02:14:32 <int-e> I suspect I need to work on my missing star first, that leads to a room with a ton of inert cats that look different from what I've seen before
02:14:55 <shachaf> You got all but one stars?
02:15:12 <shachaf> I don't even see how to get to the lock. It has a 1 flag next to it.
02:15:26 <int-e> I have 11 stars out of 12 I've seen.
02:16:28 <shachaf> I was going to say I'm still at three, but I just realized how to get one.
02:24:09 <shachaf> Anyway isn't the map always incomplete before you go into a room?
02:25:11 <int-e> shachaf: I'm expecting a surprise mechanic
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02:59:28 <shachaf> So what's the deal with "A, B |- X, Y" meaning a conjunction on the left and a disjunction on the right?
03:01:09 <zzo38> Well, it is due to how the rules for logic works, they work well and symmetric when that is the case, I think.
03:05:28 <b4er> Huh, what inference rule is that?
03:05:42 <int-e> shachaf: Since you like SAT... it's a clause, -A \/ -B \/ X \/ Y
03:06:18 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's what made me think about it.
03:06:33 <shachaf> SAT is like a one-sided thing where everything is on the right of the turnstile.
03:06:45 <b4er> Usually when writing X |- Y left would be context (not conjunction) and right is the conclusion
03:07:33 <b4er> A,B |- ... is the same as B,A |- ... but A /\ B is not the same as B /\ A
03:08:53 <int-e> shachaf: and the cut rule is resolution
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03:16:14 <shachaf> b4er_: Right, but the question is how to interpret multiple things in the context vs. in the conclusion.
03:16:49 <b4er_> shachaf, that really depends on the logic
03:17:48 <b4er_> Sometimes you can swap assumptions or drop them, sometimes you can't
03:17:55 <b4er_> I think they're called structural rules
03:19:55 <zzo38> Yes, there are different kind of logic, some which allow such things (and also duplication) and some don't.
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03:23:36 <b4er> Would , not be natural for conjunction on both sides?
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03:24:21 <shachaf> I think most people just don't use , on the right side.
03:24:26 <zzo38> No. The way the rules work to allow freely moving them around, it works better the way it is.
03:24:28 <shachaf> But when they do, it means something like disjunction.
03:25:31 <shachaf> So you have rules that let you move things, like zzo38 said, e.g. from "Γ, A |- Δ" to "Γ |- ¬A, Δ"
03:29:17 <b4er> Idk, that's kind of confusing the only time I've seen , on the rhs was for product types which are like conjunction
03:30:39 <shachaf> Do you have any examples of that?
03:33:21 <b4er> Not at hand no, but I can write you one ^^
03:35:37 <shachaf> I'm skeptical that any logic things use , on the right side of a turnstile to mean conjunction.
03:36:15 <b4er> Not conjunction but product-type but it's the same really
03:41:14 <int-e> shachaf: Oh there's kind of a hidden area in that game, maybe that's the real missing bit
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04:09:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thief * New user account
04:13:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79821&oldid=79813 * Thief * (+94) Added my name!
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04:42:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * CatIsFluffy * moved [[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]] to [[StupidStackLanguage/Examples]]: Consistency
04:42:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * CatIsFluffy * moved [[Al Dente examples]] to [[Al Dente/Examples]]: Consistency
05:06:06 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79826 * Thief * (+4349) Create Boner++ page
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05:10:36 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79827&oldid=79826 * Thief * (+3) change "compiler" to "interpreter"
05:41:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79828&oldid=79640 * Ais523 * (-41) /* See also */ unpipe interwiki links; I think people here like to know that the link's going to an external site
06:10:52 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, I'm done. 15 stars collected...
06:12:16 <shachaf> The room with the two cats and the 5-flag and 2-flag seems pretty tricky.
06:14:10 <int-e> final map (spoiler warning): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png
06:14:32 <int-e> shachaf: It's easy to cross though :)
06:16:05 <shachaf> Oh no, there's a room south of the star in the icy area?
06:16:24 <shachaf> I was wondering about that but it was so annoying just to get the star.
06:17:00 <shachaf> Now that I try it again getting the star seems easy.
06:17:17 <shachaf> I think I did something unnecessarily complicated before.
06:17:52 <Lykaina> the year is old enough to drink!
06:20:04 <shachaf> I think I was trying to get the 5-flag over there. Which is maybe what I need to do.
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13:34:14 <b_jonas> I have completed the free demo of the shapez.io game. it fittingly ends with building a rocket, which is probably the hardest shape required up to that point, depending on how you count shapes that are made easier but you can reuse a shape that was already required as one of its components.
13:34:38 <b_jonas> I will have to consider buying the non-demo version of the game.
13:36:35 <b_jonas> int-e, shachaf: wait what game is this you're playing? I assumed at first it was still the one with chairs and trees and rocks, but now it seems like it's another puzzle platformer
13:38:34 <b_jonas> s/puzzle platformer/block-pushing puzzle/
13:53:34 <fizzie> b_jonas: 21:42 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play n-step Steve? https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
13:59:12 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79829&oldid=79827 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+129) Cats, s.t.
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15:37:54 <int-e> fizzie, b_jonas: Yes, fizzie got it right.
15:40:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cyborg * New user account
15:42:21 <int-e> I've played 5 Step Steve too... but coming from N Step Steve takes out almost all the surprises. The game logic is pretty much the same except that all flags have a 5 on them.
15:47:18 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/ is extremely useful for answering this type of questions
15:56:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79830&oldid=79821 * Cyborg * (+223)
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17:07:11 <b_jonas> int-e: #esoteric sometimes plays puzzle games
17:08:34 <b_jonas> it makes sense, some of the esolangs inspire great puzzles too, like what the computational power of some esolang is, possibly with some restrictions
17:09:04 <b_jonas> just look at those results about brainfuck with a limited constant number of bracket pairs in the program
17:09:32 <b_jonas> heck did I just give brainfuck as an example for something?
17:12:37 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class
17:40:33 <b_jonas> this will take months to get used to
17:41:14 <b_jonas> I'm getting EIO... hopefully only a contact error at the USB conenction
17:42:14 <b_jonas> yep, that's what it was, whew
17:42:47 <b_jonas> I was reading from an SD card reader
17:43:23 <b_jonas> at least tar is kind enough to specifically say "Read error" so I didn't get scared that it was an EIO on my hard disk that I'm writing to
17:43:33 <b_jonas> not that you'd get an immediate EIO for that
17:46:36 <fizzie> Huh, Sonic 1 on Android.
17:48:38 <myname> platformer adaptions don't work well on android imho. and sonic isn't even a good one to begin with
17:49:28 <fizzie> (Watching AGDQ, if it wasn't clear.)
17:50:03 <fizzie> I have to imagine it's being played on a controller.
17:50:26 <fizzie> But looks like they've imported in the shields (at least bubble and lightning) from 3.
17:51:13 <myname> i don't get why it became so popular
18:00:47 <b_jonas> myname: writing text messages and browsing the web also got popular on tiny touchscreens. how are platformers different?
18:01:02 <b_jonas> android or apple phone is irrelevant here
18:01:50 <myname> writing text messages and browsing aren't inherently tightly timed
18:02:05 <myname> and you usually press where you look at those
18:02:12 <b_jonas> myname: sure, but the input devices are about as bad as for a platformer
18:02:32 <myname> for platformers, you have to do presses somewhere you don't look in a precise time window
18:02:38 <andrew_esolangs> you can always assume that the rest of the populace are idiot
18:02:39 <myname> and this also removes screen estate
18:03:07 <b_jonas> "press where you look at those" -- I sure don't. I buy non-smart phones that have a non-flat keyboard so that I can type on without looking continuously.
18:03:17 <myname> b_jonas: how so? typing? maybe. browsing? i don't think so. whether i click or i touch doesn't make a big difference
18:03:30 <b_jonas> myname: not browsing, just typing text messages or short text notes to myself
18:03:54 <b_jonas> for browsing that's probably less relevant, yes
18:04:42 <myname> yeah, keyboards are a weird one for that. there are experimental inputs that don't depend on watching as much
18:04:56 <myname> like 8pen/8vim for example
18:05:14 <andrew_esolangs> i'm too used to smartphones to have a justified opinion so i'm going
18:06:29 <myname> i used android as my daily driver quite some time
18:06:56 <myname> multitasking is necessary
18:08:36 <andrew_esolangs> my dailies are about as unlikely as possible for an irc like this
18:09:00 <myname> windows is more popular here than one might think
18:09:16 <myname> not sure about android/ios preferences, though
18:10:09 <kmc> i've been an android user for about 10 years
18:10:33 <myname> i got pretty late to the party. my first android device was the nexus 3
18:10:51 <kmc> mine was the HTC Evo 4G
18:11:08 <myname> currently i have a galaxy fold 2 <3
18:11:22 <kmc> I had a few pre-Android/iOS smartphones that were varying degrees of terrible
18:11:29 <fizzie> My first Android device was the (first, 2012) Nexus 7 tablet, and I think it might still remain the only Android device I've bought with my own money.
18:11:40 <kmc> also the Nokia N800 which was pretty nice, but not actually a phone (I think they made one phone on that platform later)
18:11:51 <fizzie> I've got the N900 on my desk right now.
18:12:05 <kmc> on desktop I have mainly been a Linux user but I switched to Win10 in 2017, kind of on a whim, and switched back late last year when that machine broke
18:12:05 <fizzie> (Because I'm meant to wipe any personal stuff out of it while it still works, but haven't gotten around to.)
18:12:22 <kmc> (I was using WSL heavily so it wasn't that much of an adjustment)
18:13:56 <b_jonas> (yes, I'm heavilyi biased against smartphone because of the state of android software)
18:13:56 <myname> i had several moto gs before
18:14:01 <fizzie> I can see a total of 9 smartphones from where I sit, which is getting pretty ridiculous.
18:14:01 <kmc> my current phone is a Pixel 3a
18:14:08 <kmc> before that I had a Moto G5+, which I really liked
18:14:11 <myname> good price for what they deliver
18:14:14 <kmc> the Pixel 3a is also good
18:14:47 <myname> i am still a bit confused about phones without dual sim
18:14:49 <andrew_esolangs> i use an hp laptop with win10 on it by the way, that's where i'm typing in this irc from
18:14:52 <kmc> yeah, my needs from a phone are pretty modest, so even a "budget" brand like Moto is more than enough phone for me, as long as the build quality is good (which it is)
18:15:26 <kmc> i mean... that "budget" phone has 8 cores and can capture 4k video at 30 fps
18:15:29 <kmc> it's a little ridiculous
18:15:32 <andrew_esolangs> if anyone cares to listen i've popped in and out of this irc a few times (if you've ever seen another "andrew" user here that's probs me)
18:16:07 <andrew_esolangs> i have little in the way of complaints for my moto, i hold it dear
18:16:36 <andrew_esolangs> i used ot have a lenovo tablet then the charger port went poof
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18:19:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: 9 smartphones from where you sit => I'm suddenly reminded of an on-site mall shop for one of the mobile phone providers here, where the vendors only have touchscreen tablets in front of them, without a keyboard, and typing my home address and every other alphanumeric data of customers on those touchscreen. that's what I saw when I went there to migrate away from them.
18:20:01 <myname> what i did to find moto g was to go on a site, filter for dualsim and sd, order by price, take the first non-chinese brand
18:20:44 <b_jonas> migrating a phone number away from them normally shouldn't require their help, by design, but that assumes that they don't pretend to not know my home address from when they were required to ask me several times before
18:22:22 <fizzie> Only 4 of those 9 have SIM cards. And it probably would only be 2/9, if it wasn't for how international SMS routing seems to be just a mess.
18:22:51 <fizzie> (Well, it'd probably be 2/x where x<9, because that's one of the reasons there's so many phones.)
18:23:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: international SMS routing? what?
18:23:21 <b_jonas> also how many of them have more than one SIM card?
18:23:47 <fizzie> And you can't assume SMS will work between an arbitrary pair of mobile operators, if those operators are in different countries.
18:24:14 <fizzie> In particular, my bank in Finland is unable to send the required confirmation text messages to my "primary" UK operator.
18:24:29 <b_jonas> if it's definitely mobile operators that is, I don't assume it will work for all landline phone operators
18:24:44 <fizzie> It works mostly, but there's arbitrary pairs of operators where it just doesn't work.
18:25:12 <fizzie> I think it's weird, too, but it seems to be true, and nobody takes responsibility for it.
18:25:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I also used to assume that when an on-site vendor with a POS terminal accepts Mastercard credit cards, then they accept Mastercard credit cards regardless the bank backing the account.
18:25:57 <b_jonas> but the world is more complicated than this
18:26:22 <fizzie> Fortunately most of the big operators in the SMS "two-factor" business seem to have figured out how to deliver messages to anywhere (certainly the likes of Google/Apple/Steam etc. do), but I imagine banks have a relatively small % of international customers.
18:28:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: I am the customer of a large bank, and they have customer service phone numbers at all three big mobile phone operators, which helps customers who can call only one of them for free, but this is exceptional, most taxis and such only have multiple numbers with one provider
18:29:54 <myname> why don't they make a number free for all numbers?
18:30:04 <kmc> my bank in the US is unable to reliably send 2FA texts to my US number
18:30:08 <kmc> but that's just cause they're incompetent
18:30:46 <kmc> any dogshit startup can do it
18:30:52 <kmc> any twilio customer can do it (including me)
18:30:53 <b_jonas> this bank also has walk-in customer offices and ATMs like everywhere, so this sort of thing is right in their profile; other banks instead have few walk-in offices or ATMs and instead make it cheap to use other ATMs
18:30:59 <kmc> but this hueg bank can't
18:31:08 <myname> i went to fintechs semi-voluntairily and i don't look back
18:31:16 <b_jonas> myname: because the bank would have to pay for the calls to free phone numbers
18:31:26 <kmc> maybe cause they want to do it in some "secure" way but at the end of the day it's still a plain old SMS when I (eventually, sometimes) receive it
18:31:51 <myname> b_jonas: and that's more expensive than 3 different numbers and the overhead for that?
18:31:52 <andrew_esolangs> banks are full of old people in upper management, probs why
18:32:06 <b_jonas> myname: they do have an internet form to call you back, in which case they pay for the call, but that incentivizes customers to be on call with them at off-times when their customer support isn't overloaded
18:33:15 <b_jonas> myname: do you know how much time customers can spend on the menu maze and 30 minutes of waiting with hold music until an operator is available?
18:33:33 <b_jonas> I don't know, but probably either of these is cheap compared to having all those walk-in offices
18:35:25 <b_jonas> or maybe customers just waste their phone customer support time slightly less if you have to either pay for it or do something nontrivial like ask for a callback on the website
18:36:23 <b_jonas> it's like when you pay a very small amount of money to buy a tabloid paper magazine: it's not that that covers their costs, it's the ads that give them income, but if they gave the papers avay for any cheaper, people would use them as toilet paper and package padding material without even glancing at those ads
18:36:55 <b_jonas> and yes, there are lots of free magazines too for that, but exactly for that reason they probably profit less from the ads
18:37:47 <b_jonas> I use these free papers to peel tomatoes on, or occasionally other similar stuff. I throw away the ones with glossy paper immediately though, because they're less suitable for that.
18:38:48 <b_jonas> myname: perhaps all the banks other than the two that try to have walk-in offices everywhere do have free phone numbers
18:39:28 <fizzie> I've seen ads in the Tube (pre-Covid) about these new "virtual" banks that don't do offices.
18:40:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, those exist too
18:41:55 <myname> i am tempted to open an account at tomorrow just because they have a wooden visa
18:42:15 <b_jonas> andrew_esolangs: we have logs going back to 18 years (2002-12), and the channel is said to be somewhat older, but I'm not sure, I wasn't there
18:42:56 <andrew_esolangs> i got involved with esolanging a few years ago although i've never made anything of use
18:43:00 <int-e> myname: we're so eco friendly, we have to cut down trees for our credit cards to make up for it?
18:43:51 <myname> int-e: they are eco friendly, though. the paid account uses your fees for co2 compensation
18:44:05 <b_jonas> myname: I already have a problem where the plastic bank card gets accidentally almost perforated by continuous misuse and bending in my pocket, a wooden card would be worse. (admittedly that's a debit card, not an embossed credit card)
18:44:22 <fizzie> I think I looked up an exact-enough birthday a while back, to figure out when we should celebrate. It was in December 2002 anyway.
18:44:34 <myname> b_jonas: sounds like a bad wallet
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18:45:00 <fizzie> (You can derive a reasonably good upper and lower bound from the mailing list archives.)
18:45:01 <b_jonas> myname: it's happened even with the previous wallet. it's not the wallet's fault, anything would suffer in the front packet of my jeans
18:45:11 <b_jonas> the jeans wants to go around my leg
18:45:35 <int-e> b_jonas: well you could get a stiff wallet (surely that's a thing) but it would be uncomfortable
18:45:56 <myname> b_jonas: i have some form of these "metal plates with a rubber" wallets, i am pretty sure stuff in there will not bend
18:46:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't the exact date in the MODE reply after the logbot joins, in the raw log from before freenode replaced their software?
18:46:25 <myname> int-e: not at all, those are pretty slim in comparison
18:47:02 <b_jonas> myname: replacement cards are cheap enough, I'm not going to pay to not bend the card. they should just be as resilient as cash.
18:47:24 <b_jonas> myname: besides, it takes almost as much time as the card would already expire when this happens
18:47:28 <b_jonas> it's not an immediate effect
18:47:35 <b_jonas> so often I don't even have to replace it
18:47:38 <myname> fine by me. just saying i never had this problem ever
18:48:13 <myname> also, there are metal credit cards
18:48:59 <b_jonas> myname: again, this is a debit card. I don't know if it happens with credit cards.
18:49:25 <myname> are those different cards?
18:49:50 <fizzie> It might have been, but I don't think we have actual raw logs from that far in the past.
18:50:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, maybe we don't have *raw* logs old enough
18:50:24 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2003-01-18-raw.txt is the oldest codu file, and it doesn't have anything useful in it.
18:50:34 <myname> i only have debit cards and one of those has those annoying letters
18:51:04 <b_jonas> myname: yes, credit cards are embossed. it's not quite a full match, I think there are non-embossed credit cards or embossed debit cards or something. the point is, my physical debit card and physical debit card are clearly physically different. the credit card is thinner if you don't count the embossing.
18:51:41 <fizzie> I think I remember someone saying their recently renewed credit card was non-embossed.
18:51:48 <fizzie> So maybe they're giving up on that finally.
18:51:57 <rain1> http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2020
18:53:00 <myname> i don't think embossed credit cards had any use outside of the use a few decades ago
18:53:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: strange, because irc servers send that after the NAMES reply when you join a channel
18:53:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: would make sense. if only they also made ones with no magnetic strip.
18:54:07 <b_jonas> I've only ever seen the embossing used on airplanes
18:54:17 <b_jonas> where they do that because don't have internet connectivity
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18:55:56 <myname> that kinda makes sense, the card i have with embossing is more travel-focussed than the one without
18:57:55 <b_jonas> and I don't think that happens anymore, because they just have internet on those airplanes. not necessarily broadband internet that they sell to customers or anything, just enough internet for a card transaction, which isn't much.
18:58:15 <b_jonas> or phone connectivity or whatever
19:04:35 <kmc> can't you do a magstripe transaction offline too
19:04:40 <kmc> i mean it has the same information the embosser gives you
19:05:00 <kmc> maybe you can't do an EMV transaction offline
19:05:07 <kmc> but it will be forever before they get rid of the magstripes
19:05:18 <b_jonas> I think it gives somewhat more than the
19:05:20 <kmc> USA still hasn't implemented EMV properly
19:05:35 <b_jonas> and yes, you could probably do a magstripe transaction, so I dunno
19:05:40 <kmc> well ok, but it should still be sufficient for an offline (processed when the plane lands) transaction
19:05:51 <kmc> my recollection of buying stuff on a plane is that they used a handheld terminal
19:06:04 <kmc> not sure whether it was EMV or magstripe
19:06:18 <b_jonas> I don't know how it works really
19:06:31 <kmc> the last (and maybe only?) time I did an embosser transaction was buying some meat from a sketchy guy in a van in 2013
19:06:34 <kmc> long story
19:06:49 <b_jonas> was the meat at least good?
19:06:49 <fizzie> I've only used the embossing thing on a boat.
19:06:52 <kmc> it was okay
19:07:17 <kmc> my credit union debit card (issued last year or maybe 2019) is not embossed
19:07:27 <kmc> but my megabank debit card (issued last year) is
19:07:35 <kmc> and i don't have any credit cards anymore
19:08:05 <kmc> both have EMV, the megabank also has NFC, before that it had EMV but not NFC, before that it had NFC but not EMV
19:08:13 <kmc> it's kind of embarrassing how much of a mess all this is
19:08:28 <fizzie> Chicago's public transit Ventra card is also a MasterCard, which I found weird.
19:08:35 <kmc> in the US there's still like a 1 in 4 chance when you encounter an EMV terminal that the EMV is mysteriously broken and you have to use magstripe
19:08:43 <myname> good to know, i disabled magstripe on my card
19:09:03 <fizzie> I got one of those on a trip because the deposit ($5?) was less than what you saved by using the card, but they've been a bit spammy afterwards.
19:09:13 <b_jonas> kmc: how is it a mess? it's just progress of technology, from embossed to magnetic to chip to proxy
19:09:24 <b_jonas> I mean the details are a mess, yes
19:09:28 <b_jonas> but the general idea isn't
19:09:35 <fizzie> It finally expires (expired?) now, and they said they'd send a replacement, but they've got a really weird address for me, because the forms were incredibly US-centric.
19:09:39 <kmc> also the protocol for paying for a sit-down meal at a restaurant in the USA is still ridiculous
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19:09:54 <kmc> and unchanged from the very start of credit cards
19:10:24 <fizzie> You give your card to them, they go away with it, then they come back with a receipt, which you then scribble a tip on and leave?
19:10:34 <kmc> you give your card to the waiter, they take it in back and do god knows what with it, bring you the card and a receipt, you write the amount you want to pay (including tip) on the receipt and then leave, and trust that they key it in correctly
19:10:46 <fizzie> Yeah, I've always found that real weird.
19:10:55 <kmc> instead of, say, bringing you a portable EMV terminal to the table
19:10:59 <b_jonas> I thought they stopped by now
19:11:01 <kmc> which I think is how it works in civilized countries
19:11:12 <fizzie> They were still doing that on my last US visit.
19:11:12 <b_jonas> and that banks also don't allow that
19:11:36 <kmc> it will probably be decades more before that changes
19:11:46 <kmc> at this point it's an ingrained part of American culture
19:11:53 <kmc> and it would confuse so many people to do it "right"
19:12:36 <kmc> (American tipping laws and culture are also dumb, but that's another matter)
19:12:57 <fizzie> It doesn't happen here either, but bill-splitting works differently here. The waiter comes around with the machine, and in turn everyone gives the waiter a card and says "take £X from here", except the last one pays whatever remains.
19:13:11 <b_jonas> I did get confused by protocol at least once, because in Sweden (and I think the UK and Geramny etc) they use portable terminals where you type in how much tip you want to pay, whereas here they don't have that, instead if you want to pay tip via card reader you tell the waiter or taxi driver how much you want to pay before they hand you the terminal, and they just enter the increased amount to the card
19:13:11 <fizzie> I don't actually remember how it usually goes in Finland, but I don't think it's worked like that.
19:13:29 <fizzie> Oh, right, I do remember: you just tell the waiter up front how you like to pay, and they bring you separate bills.
19:14:00 <kmc> yeah here you can sometimes ask them to split the bill
19:14:08 <kmc> but different restaurants may have policies on when they will or won't do this
19:14:13 <kmc> because it's kind of a pain for them
19:14:16 <b_jonas> kmc: couldn't they fix that without incompatbility by like, if you give the waiter the card, they still take it and just put it into the slot of the terminal in front of you and then hand it back after they get the confirmation?
19:14:25 <kmc> separately you can also pay one bill with multiple cards or a combination of cards and cash
19:14:32 <kmc> i think that is pretty universally accepted, but i rarely do it
19:14:46 <kmc> it's easier to have one person card the whole meal and everyone else gives that person cash or venmo or something
19:15:09 <kmc> at my university the rule was that the youngest non-math-major had to calculate how much everyone owes after a meal
19:15:19 <kmc> (because math majors can't do arithmetic)
19:15:26 <kmc> and i was pretty much always youngest
19:15:31 <kmc> but I did claim to be a math major for one term
19:20:37 <kmc> this conversation reminded me of an esoteric forgotten-technology thing
19:21:11 <kmc> which is that once upon a time, Bloom filters computed from numbers of stolen credit cards were transmitted alongside FM radio broadcasts
19:21:18 <kmc> https://i.imgur.com/gicQK2W.png https://i.imgur.com/VvBK3fz.jpg
19:21:42 <kmc> perhaps only as a trial in one city... i haven't found much information besides this one article in a trade publication from the 90s
19:23:07 <fizzie> Here's another unrelated forgotten-tech thing: at least in Finland, magazines used to print bar codes in the TV program listings, that could be used to set up a VCR to record that program, by reading the bar code using a scanner in the corner of the VCR's remote.
19:23:14 <kmc> of course at one time merchants were issued physical books of canceled card numbers, but that doesn't scale at all
19:23:27 <fizzie> (I think they might have had at least two incompatible systems for those.)
19:23:30 <kmc> so they moved to electronic networks for verifying the cards
19:24:28 <kmc> but those were kind of expensive so the FM thing was meant to reduce load on them, by caching a data structure (article doesn't say, but probably a bloom filter) with each merchant so that many cards could be accepted offline and only some would need to be checked in realtime
19:25:11 <kmc> the whole notion of credit cards is still a weird one to me
19:25:26 <kmc> the idea that you are borrowing money just by making purchases
19:25:42 <kmc> obviously arises from the limitations of pre-electronic commerce
19:26:13 <kmc> but sort of became a raison d'etre of the cards themselves
19:26:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: jesus, so that's what they did about people stereotypically being unable to program vcrs? crazy, I haven't heard of that
19:27:16 <kmc> and somehow my willingness to "borrow" $5 to buy a sandwich when I already have $5 and will immediately pay it back is used to assess my trustworthiness to borrow $1,500,000 to buy a house
19:27:42 <kmc> and also my trustworthiness to rent an apartment or get a job or do other things that have nothing to do with borrowing money
19:27:50 <b_jonas> kmc: that's another of those weird things the US does, yes
19:28:01 <kmc> and really credit score is not about trustworthiness at all; it's about how much money banks can expect to make from lending to you
19:28:13 <kmc> so the "perfect" customer who only borrows money when she really needs to and pays it back as soon as possible gets a crappy score
19:28:15 <b_jonas> kmc: but don't worry, we Europeans do other weird things instead
19:28:22 <kmc> because it's more profitable to people who will end up oweing more interest
19:28:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code for the manually typed-in version, but I'm pretty sure there was also a barcode form.
19:28:45 <kmc> but somehow "profitability as a customer for consumer debt" has become our general purpose score of whether you are a good and trustworthy person
19:28:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think I've seen the printed version
19:28:52 <kmc> it says something dark about our society
19:29:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: printed in newspapers that is, I haven't used a VCR that does it
19:29:12 <kmc> fizzie: that VCR thing is cool
19:29:22 <fizzie> We didn't have a fancy enough VCR to have that, but either a friend or a relative did, and I always found it real impressive somehow.
19:29:28 <fizzie> Even though it really doesn't do much.
19:29:34 <b_jonas> I've only ever programmed a VCR the obvious way, by entering the day of week and hour and minute of start time and hour and minute of end time
19:29:44 <kmc> this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code
19:30:08 <fizzie> That's what I found as well, and ShowView rings a bell, but it doesn't mention bar codes.
19:30:23 <fizzie> Also found https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-12-11-8704020115-story.html but that's got a static list of bar codes.
19:30:23 <kmc> hm, I do vaguely recall seeing these "PlusCodes" in TV Guide
19:30:29 <kmc> not sure that we ever had a VCR which knew about them
19:30:35 <int-e> Hmm I don't recall barcodes.
19:30:43 <kmc> but I don't remember seeing barcodes
19:31:06 <b_jonas> kmc: fizzie already linked to that
19:31:36 <fizzie> Maybe I dreamed that bit. But I still have a vivid recollection of a scanner in the corner of a remote, hmm.
19:31:45 <fizzie> Got reminded of this whole deal after seeing a video on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat
19:31:46 <kmc> ah, I missed it while I was ranting about the credit-industrial complex
19:33:38 <fizzie> Credit scores are a thing in the UK as well, incidentally.
19:33:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: nah, the barcode scanner in remote totally sounds like something that was probably real depsite that it sounds stupid to us
19:33:58 <fizzie> And apparently what you do with your credit cards affects your chances of getting a mortgage approved here.
19:34:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, in the sense that if you borrow money from your credit cards then don't pay it back, then they don't give you other types of loans. that's a thing here, it's sensible. it's just not all the american system has.
19:37:15 <fizzie> I've gotten the implication it goes one step further here, and isn't just that you need to avoid "bad" things, you need to actively try to do enough "good" things that end up in the credit agency databases.
19:37:24 <fizzie> (In Finland it's more how you describe.)
19:37:59 <kmc> oh the other weird thing is that the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you the "chargeback and fraud protection" part
19:38:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: well it's not only about not paying back, it's also to stop you from borrowing acceptible amounts of money from each of multiple different agents such that together you borrow too much money
19:38:02 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, same in the US
19:38:12 <kmc> my credit score is mediocre because I haven't owned or used a credit card in years
19:38:16 <kmc> because I don't like to play their stupid games
19:38:24 <fizzie> (Not that I know the details, other than having read a few "tips how to manage your credit score" articles a while back.)
19:38:30 <kmc> my wife's score is much better because she has one open card that she uses a few times a year to keep it active
19:38:33 <kmc> it's very stupid
19:38:48 <kmc> none of this should at all predict our ability to service a large loan like a home mortgage
19:39:25 <fizzie> I'd kind of like to know what my score is, but it seems like it would take a little bit of a hassle to find out.
19:39:47 <b_jonas> kmc: and on the other hand, the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you that service providers often take more money than you owe them as a precaution and then return the money you didn't use up much later
19:39:50 <kmc> (which is a prediction the banks are also bad at, or indeed deliberaly give loans to people who can't pay, and then get bailed out by the government when this gets them into trouble)
19:40:03 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah that can happen too
19:40:53 <j4cbo> yeah, if you don't use a credit card "enough" there's a penalty to your credit score
19:41:13 <kmc> oh and the credit agencies keep getting hacked and leaking everyone's personal info
19:41:18 <kmc> which is another reason i hate this stupid system
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22:52:24 <nakilon> that US credit score system sounds like a pyramid
22:52:58 <andrew_esolangs> it's wonderful what never reading the logs can do to make finding out of context quotes easier
22:53:01 <nakilon> where you are shit if you aren't yet on a higher level than 1 or 2 in a cash flow
22:54:53 <nakilon> there is a huge gap between the technologies that banks are using right now and the datamining science is at now
22:56:58 <nakilon> now with network and calculation technologies being improved every year will make banks able to throw out the 1950 legacy code and hardware and catch up with new stuff
22:57:37 <nakilon> and the financial control will change dramatically in the near future
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08:59:43 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79831&oldid=78445 * Quintopia * (+10) missing last step
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09:43:06 <oren> ‖ and ǁ mean different things in the International Phonetic Alphabet
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09:50:01 <b_jonas> oren: yes, but there were saner older symbols based on letters (like c and t with funny tails) that you can use instead of the silly modern click symbols (that look like ! | || ¡ or something silly like that)
09:51:19 <shachaf> י and ו and ן mean different things in Hebrew.
09:52:15 <b_jonas> shachaf: and i j l ' mean different things in various latin script languages
09:52:48 <shachaf> The whole I/l thing is actually a problem.
09:53:58 <b_jonas> it wouldn't be if people didn't insist on using bad fonts
09:54:05 <b_jonas> it's not a problem for the fonts that I use
09:54:44 <b_jonas> admittedly my handwriting has all sorts of confusable letters or sequences of letters if I'm not careful, but even then it's never I vs l
09:54:48 <shachaf> Sometimes you can't pick your fonts.
09:56:07 <b_jonas> sometimes I can't. usually I can. I set my browser to use only my fonts rather than what the website asks for. sure, it won't help in images containing text.
09:57:08 <b_jonas> admittedly I don't go as far as forcing the urlbar and tab titles to use a better font
09:57:50 <shachaf> Anyway if font designers are tempted to make them similar, that's bad enough.
09:57:51 <b_jonas> but note that the urlbar at least lowercases the domain name part of urls for exactly this problem
09:58:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: font designers do a lot of other stupid things
09:58:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do the same, although I want to allow SVG and PDF to specify fonts, but to disallow HTML to specify fonts (only allowing specifying language and fixed/variable pitch), but I don't know how to make it to do that.
09:58:20 <shachaf> Should I switch from AT&T syntax to Intel syntax for x86 assembly.
09:59:03 <b_jonas> like add fi ligatures because it makes their font look more prestigious, I hate that
09:59:19 <zzo38> I managed to get it to use the Fixed font for the URL, and for the status bar, and tab titles, but it doesn't do that elsewhere.
10:00:22 <zzo38> 2600 uses ligatures even in fix pitch text, and it shouldn't do that. I wrote to them to complain, but they haven't fixed it yet, even though they admitted that they shouldn't use ligatures in fix pitch text. I think they are using misconfigured software, probably.
10:00:49 <shachaf> So what's the deal with typefaces being uncopyrightable in the US?
10:01:39 <shachaf> Can you take some fancy expensive font and extract a usable non-copyrightable version of it and give it away?
10:03:39 <zzo38> http://pineight.com/mw/index.php?title=User:Tepples/font_laundering
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11:54:42 <esowiki> [[Mbius]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79832&oldid=75242 * Quintopia * (+343) comp class
12:05:30 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79833&oldid=79754 * Quintopia * (+15) /* Interpreters written in Python */
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13:06:57 <esowiki> [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79834&oldid=53527 * Quintopia * (-3) /* Symmetry */ oops
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16:14:07 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79836&oldid=79744 * Tetrapyronia * (+26)
16:14:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79837&oldid=79743 * Tetrapyronia * (+117) Added Triski
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16:36:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79838&oldid=79830 * Bo Tie * (+192)
16:43:06 <esowiki> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79839&oldid=58554 * Bo Tie * (+191) Added an example (Fibonacci sequence).
16:44:01 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79840&oldid=75811 * Pipythonmc * (+20) Fix formatting (some lines not breaking properly)
16:50:15 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79841&oldid=79840 * Pipythonmc * (+0) Fix a small typo
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17:27:12 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79842&oldid=79835 * Tetrapyronia * (+157)
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17:38:57 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79843&oldid=79842 * Tetrapyronia * (+440) Added Hello, world! program
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18:06:58 <int-e> fizzie: Argh, I just realized that MODI and DIVI are inconsistent when negative numbers are involved :-/
18:07:12 <int-e> Avoidable, but what a nuisance...
18:07:51 <fizzie> What, there's a MODI instruction?!
18:08:43 <fizzie> ...I was so sure I checked for that...
18:09:27 <int-e> It's even documented.
18:10:14 <int-e> (Though maybe not the way you'd expect. The "ADDI" documentation lists the other arithmetic operations as a note.)
18:10:42 <fizzie> Yeah, I know that note.
18:10:54 <fizzie> I don't know how I managed to miss MODI there.
18:11:26 <fizzie> I've got at least one COPY X, T; DIVI X, 2, X; SUBI T, X, T; SUBI T, X, T sequence just to get a LSB.
18:12:05 <fizzie> (Well, I do need the X/2 as well. But still.)
18:12:38 <int-e> anyway, MODI produces nonnegative numbers, DIVI truncates towards zero.
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18:13:52 <b_jonas> wtf are you guys playing a new puzzle game every day?
18:14:36 <myname> what's wrong with that
18:14:37 <fizzie> I didn't play that other game.
18:15:04 <fizzie> (And I think I'm pretty much done with EXAPUNKS, unless I get the urge to go back and tweak.)
18:15:33 <int-e> myname: it violates a = (a/b)*b + (a%b)
18:16:00 <fizzie> Oh well. At least my most common use for MODI probably would've been to do MODI X, 10, T, and it's not like SWIZ X, 1, T is any longer.
18:16:37 <myname> i mean, what's wrong with new good games every day
18:17:52 <int-e> Oh. Sorry, yeah I don't know what's wrong with that either.
18:18:16 <int-e> fungot: what's wrong with us?
18:18:16 <fungot> int-e: that's tablespoons though, there's nothing quite like going into the shitter. do symbols need to be
18:18:25 <fizzie> fungot: Don't be crass.
18:18:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:18:48 * int-e wonders where it learned the last word :)
18:19:10 <int-e> (of the first sentence)
18:19:11 <myname> wait, fungot has a style for fungot?
18:19:11 <fungot> myname: nonlinear fnord. see, that's my master's subject... i'm writing a scheme to c part
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18:19:37 <fizzie> fungot: What sort of weird ass-university did you find to accept a master's thesis on yourself?
18:19:37 <fungot> fizzie: my turn!!! eheheheheeheheheh the fnord. so many of those lists would you fnord.
18:19:58 <myname> does it like read its own logs?
18:20:10 <fizzie> It's not automated or anything fancy like that.
18:20:22 <fizzie> I just took all it had said here over some period of time, and fed that as input.
18:21:11 <fizzie> Theoretically you could directly interpolate the models to get (asymptotically) the same result, like `words does.
18:21:14 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
18:21:20 <fizzie> fungot: What *have* you said?
18:21:21 <fungot> fizzie: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen. i see no sense
18:21:34 <fizzie> At least the last sentence is fitting.
18:21:48 <int-e> very introspective
18:21:48 <kmc> I'm getting a FPGA board soon. I might do some eso- and/or retro-computing with it
18:22:16 <myname> will messages fungot writes with fungot style be part of future fungot style input to make it even more fungot?
18:22:16 <fungot> myname: " and this is a new game. there is no
18:22:39 <fizzie> Only if I go back and re-train that style.
18:23:30 <fizzie> Though I guess in theory it should just be a no-op. It would affect the interpolation weights a little though.
18:23:57 <kmc> I wonder which esolangs would be fun/good to implement in HDL.
18:24:15 <kmc> I actually wrote a Verilog (or was it VHDL?) Brainfuck forever ago, just as a hello world to learn the language
18:24:19 <kmc> but I never ran it on real hardware
18:25:27 <fizzie> I looked a little bit at creating a Befunge coprocessor for MIPS, as part of an optional extra of a CPU design course exercise thing ("add a coprocessor"), but never got around to even doing the main thing.
18:25:54 <fizzie> It would've had a 256x256-byte playfield though.
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18:35:56 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79844&oldid=69676 * MilkyWay90 * (+6) Updated GitHub to my new account
18:38:21 <kmc> sometimes I think I should play Shenzhen I/O but then I decide I should play KiCad instead
18:39:09 <kmc> I actually have not had many PCBs made but I really enjoy designing them anyway
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18:42:34 <kmc> PCB layout is a fun puzzle game
18:42:48 <kmc> especially if you put an unreasonable amount of effort towards making everything look nice and minimizing the number of vias
18:43:12 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79845&oldid=79843 * Tetrapyronia * (-6) Fixed Truth-machine
18:43:53 <fizzie> I should play OpenSCAD again some day. It was a lot of fun to do a practical shape with it, though not particularly puzzle-like.
18:44:24 <kmc> I'm getting a 3D printer next month
18:44:28 <kmc> so I'll probably be trying that out
18:44:53 <fizzie> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:387442 is the thing I made. (It's the only thing I've made.)
18:45:03 <fizzie> Not particularly useful if you don't have a N900 though.
18:46:05 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79846&oldid=79829 * Thief * (+148) Add 8 new keywords
18:46:41 <kmc> it would probably work for other phones?
18:47:03 <kmc> at least with some tweaking
18:47:08 <fizzie> Presuambly, by adjusting the dimensions.
18:47:38 <fizzie> It's all parametric, because of course that's the point with OpenSCAD.
18:49:42 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79847&oldid=79846 * Thief * (+705) Add "Variables" section
18:50:24 <fizzie> I imagine if you just set the phone_{width,depth,height_tall,height_short} variables, and the front_drop_pos, you could make it work on any suitably cuboid phone. But it may not really be the optimal design.
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18:56:38 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79848&oldid=79847 * Thief * (+602) /* Variables */ clarification
18:57:06 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79849&oldid=79848 * Thief * (-12) /* Variables */ fix anim -> boner issue
18:58:42 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79850&oldid=79849 * Thief * (+1) /* Variables */ add missing angle bracket
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19:18:01 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79851&oldid=79850 * Thief * (+83) Add 4 new keywords
19:18:31 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79852&oldid=79851 * Thief * (+2) /* Overview */ fix keyword issue
19:19:30 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79853&oldid=79852 * Thief * (+8) /* Overview */ fix issue with empty string
19:20:24 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79854&oldid=79853 * Thief * (+21) /* Variables */ revise syntax in accordance with update
19:34:01 <esowiki> [[Triski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79855&oldid=79845 * Tetrapyronia * (+234)
20:00:10 <rain1> tony hawk on agdq next, should be cool
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20:49:03 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79856&oldid=79844 * CatIsFluffy * (+153) /* Computational class */ another path
21:03:50 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79857&oldid=79855 * Tetrapyronia * (+107)
21:13:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79858 * Tetrapyronia * (+213) Created page with "Where does the robot start on the tape? Ex. Input = '1', Tape = <code><infinte 0s> 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 <infinite 0s><\code> Would the robot start at the first block? (the first 0..."
21:13:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79859&oldid=79858 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
21:14:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79860&oldid=79859 * Tetrapyronia * (+116)
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00:04:05 <Arcorann> I hear the winners for the 27th IOCCC are out
00:07:15 <b_jonas> I missed that, despite that I checked their webpage:
00:07:32 <b_jonas> it says "Released the winners of the 27th IOCCC." which they've done months ago
00:07:39 <b_jonas> but actually it links to the winning entries
00:08:49 <b_jonas> `ioccclist source code for the 27th IOCCC (submission between 2019-12 and 2020-05) released
00:08:50 <HackEso> ioccclist source code for the 27th IOCCC (submission between 2019-12 and 2020-05) released: b_jonas rain2 rain1
00:10:54 <rain1> yes! I didn't expect it til august
00:16:21 <HackEso> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
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00:18:32 <esowiki> [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79861&oldid=79834 * Quintopia * (+31) paradigm
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00:20:40 <esowiki> [[LRIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79862&oldid=75988 * Lebster * (+126) formatting
00:23:10 <zzo38> O, OK, let me to see then.
00:26:01 <zzo38> Why does it take that long?
00:28:47 <zzo38> It doesn't use only printf; it uses scanf also.
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01:18:16 <zzo38> If you like the different puzzle games, to also consider about Free Hero Mesh, which is also open source (so, it is suitable for Freenode, I suppose), and also has its own programming language (including a Turing-complete preprocessor).
01:18:55 <zzo38> The tag system in the preprocessor is: {define "skip" {call \2}} {define "1" {skip \1|"3"|"3"|"2"|"1"|"H"}} {define "2" {skip \1|"3"|"3"|"1"}} {define "3" {skip \1|"3"|"3"}} {define "H" \1} {call "2"|"1"|"1"}
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01:42:26 <zzo38> How many formats are there for VHS recording? I have heard of SP, LP, EP, 24-hour surveillance format, and a audio-only format sometimes used for telephone recording. How many VCRs can play all of them?
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02:07:01 <kmc> there are also data formats that used VHS tape
02:08:26 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArVid
02:08:40 <kmc> though this seems to use a standard VCR, and could be considered data modulated as video
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02:12:01 <zzo38> It is Russian, so I don't know much about it other than what is written on Wikipedia. Is it only compatible with PAL and not NTSC?
02:14:49 <kmc> from reading the FAQ (auto translated by google) I believe so
02:15:12 <kmc> there is also S-VHS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-VHS
02:15:21 <kmc> which used physically similar but higher quality tapes than regular VHS
02:15:38 <kmc> however it seems there were also attempts at encoding the S-VHS signal (or something close to it) on normal VHS tapes
02:15:49 <kmc> and there was a digital version of S-VHS as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-VHS
02:24:14 <zzo38> Although still that is different from VHS
02:27:35 <kmc> I dimly recall reading about a product sold in the US similar to ArVid
02:27:48 <kmc> it was a pretty compelling idea
02:28:14 <kmc> several GB of backup capacity (bigger than most hard drives at the time) on a tape cheaply available from any consumer electronics store
02:29:24 <kmc> the downside i guess is that backup/restore are very slow and you don't have any random-access capability even to the minimal extent of other purpose-made data tape formats
02:31:38 <zzo38> Yes, but now I have DVDs for backup, it works better
02:38:18 <zzo38> (Although, even though it is a DVD, I still use the tape archive format)
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02:55:24 <kmc> .tar file?
03:07:42 <zzo38> Yes, although also compressed with gzip
03:16:18 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79863&oldid=79710 * Thief * (+79) /* General languages */ add Boner++
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05:35:34 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79864&oldid=79837 * Hakerh400 * (+134) +[[Hot]]
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06:17:07 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79865&oldid=79833 * Quintopia * (+15) deadfish
06:21:53 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79866&oldid=79865 * Quintopia * (+31) smbf
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09:07:49 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79867&oldid=79866 * Quintopia * (+13) /* Interpreters written in Python */
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11:40:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to convert a lambda expression to SKI expressions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79868 * Hakerh400 * (+12340) .
11:40:56 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79869&oldid=79768 * Hakerh400 * (+130) /* Articles */
11:41:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79870&oldid=79869 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Articles */
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22:59:00 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79871&oldid=77248 * Zzo38 * (+420) Free Hero Mesh
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00:04:31 <esowiki> [[V]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79872 * Bo Tie * (+2447) I'm pretty new to esoteric programming languages, improve and suggest things that are bad
01:33:50 <esowiki> [[Eternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79873&oldid=79557 * Quadril-Is * (+0) the word was in the wrong place
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07:44:42 <esowiki> [[User:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79874&oldid=79651 * Razetime * (+51)
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09:14:30 <Taneb> Is "Polynomial in one variable on R" an endofunctor on the category of commutative rings?
09:19:01 <Taneb> (Where Polynomial(f) is the function that applies f to all the coefficients)
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10:01:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:V]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79875 * Quintopia * (+102) gravity
10:02:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79876&oldid=79875 * Quintopia * (+90) sig
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10:46:42 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79877&oldid=73523 * Quintopia * (+6) remove contradiction in description
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13:04:27 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79878&oldid=79877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Push "false " */ Add extremely golfed version
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14:03:54 <b_jonas> you know that discredited old meme "https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetyPercentOfYourBrain" "humans only use 10 percent of their brains"? we should start spreading the rumour that the average software is using less than ten percent of the computational capacity of the computer hardware, and if you only wrote software that uses the computer more efficiently, you could unlock hidden powers.
14:04:00 <b_jonas> this is much more defensible than the brain thing, though perhaps only because I understand how computers work.
14:07:19 <rain1> it's the other way around
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14:07:36 <rain1> average software is using 100% of a core to do what could be done in 1%
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14:38:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79879&oldid=79876 * Bo Tie * (+227) /* How does gravity change exactly? */
14:50:09 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79880&oldid=79872 * Bo Tie * (+434)
14:53:53 <esowiki> [[User:Bo Tie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79881 * Bo Tie * (+83) Created page with "Hi, I'm Bo Tie! I'm currently: * making [[v]] * being bad at writing my user page"
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15:03:49 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79882&oldid=79880 * Bo Tie * (+248)
15:14:04 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79883&oldid=79882 * Bo Tie * (+0)
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15:56:43 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79884&oldid=79883 * Bo Tie * (+366) Added Fibonacci sequence and '$'
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18:06:52 <esowiki> [[TOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79885&oldid=60348 * Null * (+41)
18:07:06 <esowiki> [[TOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79886&oldid=79885 * Null * (+1)
18:34:22 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79887&oldid=79884 * Bo Tie * (+20)
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20:32:56 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79888 * Tetrapyronia * (+1187)
20:34:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79889&oldid=79864 * Tetrapyronia * (+60) Added Lossia
20:34:45 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79890&oldid=79888 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
20:35:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79891&oldid=79836 * Tetrapyronia * (+26)
20:36:15 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79892&oldid=79891 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
20:37:22 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79893&oldid=79890 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) changed a command
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20:53:41 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79894&oldid=79893 * Tetrapyronia * (-2)
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22:31:11 <Marreko> What a white man is doing in a afro-descendant syncretism religion?
22:32:20 <zzo38> Anyone could learn any kind of religion(s), I think.
22:32:34 <Marreko> if he dont have wife, son, daughter, nobady black in your family?
22:33:00 <imode> first time I've seen you here. good bait.
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00:30:53 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79895&oldid=79540 * Pppery * (+10) Per request at https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/56675495#56675495
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01:43:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lossia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79896 * JonoCode9374 * (+40) Created page with "Does printing a value discard the value?"
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02:19:29 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79897&oldid=79894 * JonoCode9374 * (+1259)
02:25:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79898&oldid=79703 * JonoCode9374 * (+106)
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03:12:19 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79899&oldid=79897 * Tetrapyronia * (+26) printing doesn't discard value
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03:23:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lossia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79900&oldid=79896 * Tetrapyronia * (+236)
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04:15:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79901&oldid=79900 * Tetrapyronia * (+15)
04:16:04 <moony> My Parallax Propeller arrived
04:16:13 <moony> the only appropriate first project is a brainfuck interpreter
04:16:22 <moony> just to get a feel for the asm
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07:52:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79902&oldid=79898 * Razetime * (+39)
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13:02:20 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79903&oldid=79386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Example Program: Truth-machine */ See also
13:03:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79904&oldid=79806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* L */ Add [[Lossia]]
13:09:12 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79905&oldid=79899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Online Interpreter */ Category languages
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13:14:10 <AnDrEs4> Over 40.000$ BitCoin https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 Earn Your BitCoin Now!!!
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13:15:55 <fizzie> Aww, our own little channel is important enough to get one of those bitcoin spams.
13:18:47 <int-e> I think they're actively avoiding the big channels.
13:21:44 <fizzie> Mmaybe. There was one on #perl, which is a little bigger, but not that big.
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13:33:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
13:34:05 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is eerily topical
13:34:09 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is eerily topical
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14:27:19 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79906&oldid=79889 * Tetrapyronia * (+139) Added Arrow
14:27:36 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79907&oldid=79892 * Tetrapyronia * (+12)
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14:56:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think you have to be too important to get spam.
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14:58:38 <b_jonas> oh yeah, that was overdue. the previous password was from 2020-12-01.
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15:04:52 <b_jonas> GDQ is running early? what's happening?
15:05:12 <b_jonas> ah no, they changed the schedule
15:05:18 <b_jonas> probably had to rearrange something
15:06:36 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79908 * RocketRace * (+3562) Begin Sygyl
15:10:13 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79909&oldid=79908 * RocketRace * (+64) just some formatting
15:10:42 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79910&oldid=79909 * RocketRace * (+6) formatting errors
15:11:10 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79911&oldid=79910 * RocketRace * (-2) /* Evaluation of programs */
15:17:25 <b_jonas> oh darn, I don't have a paper pocket calendar for 2021 yet
15:17:31 <b_jonas> I should have bought one in advance
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16:39:11 <esowiki> [[V^3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79912 * Bo Tie * (+17) Redirected page to [[V]]
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17:42:57 <esowiki> [[PUSH++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79913 * Expliked * (+3) Created page with "WIP"
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23:32:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79915&oldid=79902 * JonoCode9374 * (+29)
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00:49:48 <esowiki> [[Arrow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79916&oldid=47308 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Rm pointless markup; deadlink
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13:17:55 <esowiki> [[Hexish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79917&oldid=37108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+253) Examples (I think)
13:27:57 <esowiki> [[Minimum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79918&oldid=43754 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Interpreter */ cats
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15:33:27 <arseniiv> can one joke and laugh naturally and daily but still have a mild depression? I can’t understand if I have enough drive to do things, and stupid people bickering makes me sad to a degree I lose interest in good things. But maybe not as much, dunno
15:36:53 <arseniiv> not sad per se, but maybe just makes me metaphorically sick?..
15:55:52 <arseniiv> (I’m afraid that if I really have some disbalance at this front, come I to a specialist, they wouldn’t prescribe me anything, as I heard here they aren’t aware that light cases do exist in great numbers and should be treated, and I don’t want going through specialists until something finally clicks, as I simply wouldn’t afford that)
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18:09:26 <kmc> i don't think antidepressants should be a first-line response in such cases, anyway
18:09:49 <kmc> they are not very effective by the numbers, and have serious side effects, cause physical dependence / addiction, and once you're on them you are de facto expected to take them for life
18:10:57 <kmc> but they're very popular as a quick band-aid sort of "fix" to problems that may be more psychological or social than chemical in nature
18:11:19 <kmc> not to say that they aren't helpful to some
18:13:48 <kmc> there are lots of adjustments you could make to your daily routine such as sleep habits, exercise, a meditation practice, change of scenery in various sorts that may increase your motivation and make you less put off by other people's bickering
18:15:30 <kmc> you could also talk it through in more detail with a therapist, who will have lots more and more specific suggestions on how to adjust your perspective
18:19:50 <kmc> i also find that the occasional trip with magic mushrooms or other psychedelic of choice is great to clear the cobwebs from the mind and rekindle an interest in things
18:20:07 <kmc> but it's definitely not for everyone
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19:32:07 <arseniiv> kmc: thanks for kind advice :)
19:34:31 <kmc> arseniiv: you're welcome, and good luck :)
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00:32:53 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79919&oldid=72586 * CatIsFluffy * (+1580) Translation to lambda calculus
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02:10:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CatCatDeluxe * New user account
02:17:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79921&oldid=79838 * CatCatDeluxe * (+226) introduction thingy
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02:22:29 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79922 * CatCatDeluxe * (+307) Created page with "I'm CatCatDeluxe, I like to do programming. I wouldn't be on here if I didn't lol anyways I'll probably make some interpreters for languages I think look cool (and easy to ma..."
02:24:17 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79923&oldid=79922 * CatCatDeluxe * (+102)
02:33:12 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79924&oldid=79920 * CatIsFluffy * (+1989) /* Converting Underload to lambda calculus */ Translate swap to lambda calculus
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04:20:33 <esowiki> [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79925&oldid=79924 * CatIsFluffy * (+0) /* Converting Underload to lambda calculus */ Bugfix
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10:08:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * G4shaped * New user account
10:12:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79926&oldid=79921 * G4shaped * (+67)
10:12:41 <esowiki> [[User:G4shaped]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79927 * G4shaped * (+13) Created page with "{{lowercase}}"
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11:03:37 <rain1> https://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/
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11:07:40 <Arcorann> What do you want to talk about?
11:08:25 <imode> permanent power outage or temporary one?
11:08:26 <Lykaina> always scared during these things
11:08:58 <imode> all's well. whatever's there before the dark is there after the dark.
11:09:15 <Lykaina> temporary, i hope...i want heat
11:09:30 <imode> grab some blankets preemptively and bundle yourself up tight.
11:09:59 <Lykaina> i'm running off of cell phone wifi
11:11:09 <Lykaina> i set my ipad to "low data usage"
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11:19:01 <Lykaina> i was awake when it happened
11:20:37 <Lykaina> it's why i have 5 nightlights
11:23:08 <Lykaina> dont want to risk opening fridge
11:38:18 <Lykaina> 9:15am is when they anticipate power restore
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11:43:46 <arseniiv> fungot what’s your unbiased opinion on triangle inequality?
11:43:46 <fungot> arseniiv: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
11:46:47 <Lykaina> gtg phone is charged...gonna disconnect external battery and shut off wifi
13:27:17 <b_jonas> Lykaina: I don't know where you are, is this a power outage while there's still enough daylight from the window or it's dark?
13:28:00 <b_jonas> ah, you already say "it's 6:38 am" two hours ago so that must be east coast
13:29:13 <b_jonas> I'm not generally scared during power outage because I'm familiar enough with my apartment that I can navigate it even in the dark,
13:29:38 <b_jonas> and it's the city, sky is never dark even when there's an outage in the whole block
13:29:55 <b_jonas> but when I am outside of towns, then the darkness and silence is creepy and I can't sleep
13:40:32 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79928&oldid=74122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+135) /* External resources */ Link to [[User:CatCatDeluxe]]'s interpreter
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22:54:46 <zzo38> Level 21, 32, 64, and 97 of SANDY1 don't work so far. In the case of level 21 and 97, this seems to be a mistake made by the author of those levels. In the case of level 32, the provided solution seems to be invalid; I am not sure how that happened, In the case of level 64, this seems to be my own fault, although I have not figured out what the problem is.
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07:07:58 <Sgeo> I usually go to sleep later than this. Probably not a good habit
07:10:22 <lambdabot> Local time for Sgeo is Mon Jan 11 02:10:20
08:08:23 <shachaf> I tried to reconstruct KMP string search from "memory" (I never actually looked at the details so it's not really memory), and ended up with something else instead.
08:08:42 <shachaf> With a lookup table of size |pattern| * 256
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08:47:54 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah KMP builds a very compactly represented NFA, not a DFA.
08:48:45 <shachaf> Right, I saw something about that.
08:49:51 <shachaf> Or, hmm, this book says that KMP uses a deterministic automaton.
08:50:18 <shachaf> And compares it to shift-and which uses a nondeterministic automaton, it says.
08:50:23 <int-e> KMP has epsilon transitions
08:51:26 <shachaf> Epsilon transitions? I must be thinking of something else then.
08:51:50 <shachaf> Or maybe it's just about how you're thinking of it.
08:51:53 <int-e> Maybe I'm taking a too detailed view on KMP.
08:53:01 <shachaf> If you have /.*pattern/, you can think of the NFA where state 0 has a transition to state 1 on p, and also to state 0 on every character.
08:53:12 <int-e> In that view, each time you compare a letter from the haystack with a letter from the needle, a transition is made.
08:54:13 <int-e> And each time these are not equal, the haystack letter is not consumed... so that makes it an epsilon transition to my mind.
08:54:37 <int-e> But then again it lacks the annoying property of NFAs that you have to keep track of several states...
08:55:02 <shachaf> I was sort of thinking you operate by always taking one character at a time and doing your transitions, which is why I ended up with a DFA.
08:55:09 <int-e> So it's a weird beast inbetween :)
08:55:16 <shachaf> But the trick is that it's allowed to choose not to consume characters.
08:55:29 <shachaf> So a single character can take multiple transitions (possibly all the way back to 0).
08:56:15 <int-e> Mainly this was/is me trying to make sense of the table that KMP builds.
08:56:24 <shachaf> I think I vaguely remember something about that now.
08:56:31 <int-e> Which if it is viewed as a DFA, is hard.
08:57:22 <shachaf> But it's still guaranteed to take linear time.
08:58:09 <int-e> Oh yes. Each DFA transition takes amortized constant time.
08:58:45 <int-e> But you almost certainly know that.
08:59:04 <shachaf> I "know" it but it's not immediately obvious why.
08:59:10 <shachaf> I guess it's some typical amortized argument.
08:59:21 <shachaf> To be able to jump back you must have gone forward some number of steps.
08:59:30 <int-e> Each epsilon transition goes back in the needle, so is paid for by a previous transition that advanced in the needle.
09:00:18 <int-e> So that's your cost per character: Advance the needle, plus a potential epsilon transition that skips back.
09:02:15 <shachaf> Right, that's the sort of thing I meant.
09:03:04 <shachaf> So, hmm, you get at most 2n transitions or something?
09:03:11 <int-e> (and then, of course, there's building the table)
09:03:55 <shachaf> Where "n" is the length of the haystack, not the needle, despite the confusing name.
09:04:34 <shachaf> Anyway, this book doesn't actually get into the details of KMP. It says it's mainly useful for short needles, and there are better algorithms for those.
09:05:31 <int-e> Hmm. Somehow I've never studied Boyer-Moore.
09:06:28 <int-e> Beyond the very basic idea (skip ahead a full needle's length; if you're lucky the character you find is none of the needle characters, and then you'll process the string much faster)
09:07:02 <shachaf> Well, according to this book, Boyer-Moore is slower and more complicated than its Horspool simplification.
09:07:15 <int-e> I've never even heard of that one
09:07:43 <int-e> But that's consistent with what I said :)
09:07:54 <shachaf> It's what GNU memmem uses, apparently.
09:08:38 <int-e> (consistent: the difference is in the details that I never studied)
09:10:24 <shachaf> Shift-And looks really simple.
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09:28:40 <shachaf> This algorithm is just simulating an NFA in parallel with bitwise operations.
09:28:57 <shachaf> So the transition is: state = ((state << 1) | 1) & table[c];
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09:37:57 <shachaf> And to be slightly trickier you can invert all the bits to get shift-or.
09:38:15 <shachaf> Then shifting left gives you a 0 for free, so the transition is just: state = (state << 1) | table[c];
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10:03:28 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe Horspool is just what I thought Boyer-Moore was.
10:10:51 <int-e> If it's a simplification...
10:11:04 <int-e> ...it's likely to get taught.
10:12:14 <shachaf> If that's true, why does anyone teach bubble sort ever?
10:12:23 <shachaf> What a terrible algorithm.
10:15:48 <int-e> Because of the name...
10:16:04 <int-e> And it's so easy to implement in place.
10:16:23 <int-e> Also it's really a family of algorithms.
10:19:05 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Insertion_and_Bubble_networks
10:20:11 <shachaf> Yes, I know it's the same sorting network as insertion sort.
10:20:22 <shachaf> But that's not an advantage over insertion sort. Insertion sort is just better.
10:20:55 <shachaf> It's not just more efficient, it's simpler and more obviously correct.
10:21:14 <int-e> I really think it's the evocative name, and the physical analogy, that makes bubble sort popular.
10:24:54 <int-e> from a practical perspective I'd probably start with bucket or radix sort on a deck of cards :P
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11:14:25 <shachaf> Oh, this Horspool thing is actually not what I was thinking.
11:14:57 <shachaf> It places a window at a particular location, but then it just checks whether the window matches, which you can do either backward or forward.
11:15:14 <shachaf> Then if there's a mismatch it decides how to move the window based on the last byte in the window. That's it.
11:16:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Txlyre * New user account
11:39:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79931&oldid=79926 * Txlyre * (+161) Add my introduction.
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13:44:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes. it's an algorithm that almost never comes up anymore on modern machines. it made a bit more sense back when RAMs read one byte at a time but were the same frequency as the CPU and almost no latency. you'll find a more precise description in Knuth volume 5. it isn't even described in Cormen, or in Rónyai–Ivanyos–Szabó, ... hmm
13:45:19 <b_jonas> it must be in some book. I know I was supposed to understand this (and the other two string search algorithms) for an exam.
13:49:20 <b_jonas> I don't think it's in ed. Iványi either
13:53:25 <b_jonas> is Boyer-Moore the same as that algorithm?
13:55:16 <b_jonas> https://regi.tankonyvtar.hu/hu/tartalom/tamop425/0046_algoritmusok/ch11.html this book lists three different nontrivial string search algorithms
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15:47:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79933&oldid=79931 * Shahryar * (+325) /* Introductions */
15:57:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79934&oldid=79904 * Shahryar * (+16) /* Non-alphabetic */
15:59:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79935&oldid=79934 * Shahryar * (+16) /* P */
16:12:34 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79936 * Shahryar * (+408) Plutonium Programming Language Intro
16:16:39 <esowiki> [[User:Shahryar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79937 * Shahryar * (+194) Created page with "Hi, I am Shahryar Ahmad.I am a self taught teenage programmer.I love programming.I created my own programming language plutonium.I code in C/C++ and these are my favourite pro..."
16:30:53 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79938&oldid=79932 * Nailuj29 * (+72)
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16:54:51 <shachaf> b_jonas: The algorithm I'm describing is certainly in the Boyer-Moore family.
16:56:09 <shachaf> The book I'm reading divides string-in-string search algorithms into approximately three families, KMP-like, BM-like, and ones based on substrings (which it calls factors).
16:56:35 <shachaf> Rabin-Karp is yet another method, which it hasn't even mentioned yet.
16:56:57 <shachaf> Maybe it'll mention it if don't-care characters come up later.
16:57:51 <shachaf> Anyway, BNDM -- Backward Nondeterministic Dawg Matching -- is an example of the factor algorithm. https://www-igm.univ-mlv.fr/~lecroq/string/bndm.html looks like a link for it?
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17:00:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: Rabin-Karp is mentioned in the book that I linked, and in Cormen
17:01:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't there an additional family of randomized (hashing) algorithms?
17:01:18 <shachaf> Yes, I know what Rabin-Karp is, I just mean that so far it hasn't mentioned rolling hashes or anything.
17:01:50 <b_jonas> ah right, Rabin-Karp is the randomized one
17:02:13 <shachaf> My vague recollection of this topic is that optimal time for searching with don't-care characters in the pattern is pretty tricky to achieve with conventional algorithms.
17:02:40 <shachaf> And that maybe a rolling hash method does best at it, or something.
17:03:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't that only if you insist on theoretical asymptotics though, while most of the practical input data that you want to search for is much easier, though you have to be careful when users can give you text and/or search queries of course?
17:04:02 <shachaf> I think that's right. This book is pretty practically-minded.
17:04:49 <b_jonas> well, in the end we'll just have to wait for Knuth vol 5 for a clear summary and final word
17:06:37 <shachaf> I quite like these methods that store a set of states in a machine word.
17:07:06 <shachaf> Even if they're limited to search for patterns of size 64 or something.
17:08:58 <shachaf> One thing this book doesn't cover at all is offline algorithms, where you can build an index on the text.
17:09:20 <shachaf> I'd read another book about those because there are so many interesting tricks there.
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17:24:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79941&oldid=79933 * Chibiningen * (+159)
17:25:21 <esowiki> [[User:Chibiningen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79942 * Chibiningen * (+13) Created page with "Irashaimasen."
17:28:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Imaginary function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79943&oldid=43070 * Chibiningen * (+164)
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19:52:26 <rain1> file format for packing multiple files togethr: (filename\0data\0)* works with files who do not contain \0
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19:57:31 <zzo38> Yes, although other than text files, many files will contain \0
19:58:20 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_Overhead_Byte_Stuffing
20:03:14 <zzo38> That will work, although that makes it a more complicated format. (Although for some applications that might still be helpful, I suppose.)
20:09:28 <zzo38> Although I generally prefer the Hamster archive format, which is like what rain1 described except instead of adding a null byte after the data, add the 32-bit PDP-endian data size before the data. (Of course, different formats have their own advantages and disadvantages, such as this won't work if the data size won't fit in a 32-bit number.)
20:09:34 <kmc> if the goal is just to pack files together then i reckon a length-prefixed format is better than a delimited format
20:10:18 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too.
20:10:22 <kmc> the length-prefixed format doesn't require processing the file data at all, and it allows a reader to easily skip files that are not of interest, assuming the archive is on a seekable medium
20:12:14 <zzo38> Yes, I did think of that too (and have taken advantage of that too).
20:14:34 <kmc> COBS is good for something like a serial data link where a) you don't necessarily know the length of a packet when you start transmitting it and b) you want to be able to jump into the middle of a stream and resynchronize as soon as you reach the end of a packet
20:15:19 <kmc> I am thinking the next time I build an embedded system which needs to send structured data over a serial link, I might use CBOR + COBS
20:17:53 <zzo38> Yes, I believe you; that makes sense.
20:23:16 <kmc> serialization is a surprisingly hard problem
20:23:48 <kmc> it often seems stupid that the world has so many serialization formats, but it's surprisingly tricky to design a good one, and there are a lot of conflicting requirements such that there isn't necessarily one best choice
20:53:05 <shachaf> Man, this string searching loop is so good: for (int i = 0; i < text_size; i++) { state = (state >> 1) | table[text[i]]; if ((state & 1) == 0) { /* found */ } }
20:55:29 <rain1> does table just put how many chars left are need as bits?
20:56:45 <shachaf> I guess you can put it that way?
20:57:43 <rain1> it seems ok, very basic no skip aheads
20:58:45 <shachaf> Yes, it's only for small patterns.
21:00:45 <shachaf> If you want skipahead, Horspool is also really simple (way simpler than Boyer-Moore) and good.
21:02:38 <zzo38> kmc: I think that different formats can be good for different purposes, although it is true there are some problem with some of them
21:02:39 <rain1> thanks i didn't know about it
21:03:05 <shachaf> window_left := 0; while (window_left <= end - pattern_size) { if (s[window_left:window_left+pattern_size] == pattern) { /* found */ } else { window_left += table[text[window_left + pattern_size - 1]]; }
21:03:14 <shachaf> Where that if is doing string comparison, of course.
21:04:15 <shachaf> And the table just has the rightmost occurrence of each character (excluding the last one).
21:06:54 <zzo38> I think XML is too often used as a general purpose serialization format when it isn't very good for that; what XML is good for is stuff like HTML (and avoids some of the problems of HTML).
21:07:16 <kmc> XML has a lot of problems
21:08:06 <zzo38> Yes, it does have a lot of its own problems too
21:16:17 <zzo38> One serialization format that is often missed is the format produced by the printobject operator in PostScript.
21:16:26 <kmc> I do like some things that XML can do, such as namespacing of tags, ability to embed one type of XML document in another, and schemas to check validity
21:16:32 <kmc> but these things are often not used or used improperly
21:16:37 <kmc> and the concrete syntax of XML is very cumbersome
21:16:48 <kmc> which defeats the purpose of a "human-readable" format
21:17:03 <kmc> and if it's not going to be human-readable/editable then it could be a more efficient and easy to parse binary format
21:17:19 <kmc> zzo38: what is that format?
21:17:43 <zzo38> XML is way too often misused I think. The good things XML can do is good for things like HTML, not for other kind of stuff, I think.
21:18:14 <zzo38> kmc: Here is a description: http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/PostScript_binary_object_format
21:18:57 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79946&oldid=79936 * Tetrapyronia * (+53) added link (needs formatting and stuff)
21:19:24 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79947&oldid=79946 * Tetrapyronia * (-9)
21:23:12 <kmc> HTML isn't even proper XML
21:23:24 <kmc> and the project to turn it into proper XML failed and was abandoned
21:24:14 <zzo38> Yes, I know, HTML isn't even proper XML.
21:24:25 <b_jonas> kmc: it wasn't abandonned. while we don't transmit HTML written as XML, browsers and their Javascript DOM interface effectively expose a view of the live internal state of HTML document that is basically an XML tree
21:24:58 <b_jonas> so XML is a good way to describe how the semantics works
21:25:48 <kmc> it still differs from XML
21:25:54 <b_jonas> we just don't want to apply the restrictions of XML to the HTML files that we transmit because that'd be pointless. like, no \x00 characters? it'd just be a stupid extra requirement on the side that serves the XHTML, when the browser side will always have to be able to parse full HTML anyway.
21:26:31 <b_jonas> kmc: sure, it differs, but I don't think that counts as abandonned
21:26:34 <kmc> I agree that HTML is similar to XML and some of the same concepts apply when working with a DOM
21:26:41 <b_jonas> the XML thing wasn't a dead-end
21:26:49 <b_jonas> it just led to the DOM interface that isn't quite XML
21:27:02 <kmc> the idea of serializing HTML pages in an XML compatible format basically went nowhere
21:27:12 <kmc> there is actually an XML compatible serialization of HTML5 documents (XHTML5)
21:27:15 <kmc> but I don't think it's used much
21:27:22 <kmc> it does not parse as standard HTML5, I don't think
21:27:27 <kmc> it would have a different content-type
21:27:31 <kmc> and a different, much stricter parser
21:28:02 <kmc> versus the HTML5 parser which is a precisely specified complicated ball of garbage meant to parse any vaguely correct HTML-ish thing anyone's ever written since 1990
21:32:23 <fizzie> "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" for life
21:33:34 <kmc> <!DOCTYPE html> is so much shorter
21:33:39 <fizzie> Remember when web pages had that button at the bottom where it proudly proclaimed which standard it validates at, and when you clicked it, you got a validator report with at least a dozen errors?
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22:46:55 <oren> Did they ever fix the vertical alignment problem in HTML?
22:47:18 <oren> (where there is no portable way to vertically centre anything, other than using tables)
22:47:57 <shachaf> Does flex-whatever not do it nowadays?
22:48:29 <zzo38> Isn't there some CSS command to position something as though it is a table cell?
22:50:02 <zzo38> (Although maybe I am wrong; my use of CSS is mostly limited to correcting the bad designs of other CSS writers.)
22:51:29 <oren> oh apparently display:flex with align-items:center does vertical centring
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23:37:45 <fizzie> They did a multicolumn CSS thing too, right?
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23:54:22 <kmc> zzo38: yes, table layout is fully specified by CSS
23:54:57 <kmc> that is, there is nothing special about <table> and <td> etc. tags, you could use <div class="table"> and <div class="td"> and so forth and get the same results with an appropriate stylesheet
23:55:26 <kmc> fun fact: you can even style normally invisible tags such as <script> to be visible
23:55:39 <kmc> try injecting "script { display: block; }" as user CSS on your favorite website and see what happens
23:55:47 <kmc> talk about literate programming!
23:57:08 <zzo38> Yes, although <TABLE> is still useful for some purposes, such as, if the user disabled CSS, if you use a browser that doesn't have CSS, or so that a browser that implements some special commands for use with tables can deal with tables, such as sorting, SQL queries, export, etc.
23:59:49 <kmc> as far as i know, the use of <table> is still considered correct for things that are actually semantically tables
23:59:54 <kmc> just not for random bits of site layout
00:00:06 <kmc> and much as you can style any element to look like a table, you can style table elements to look like anything
00:02:49 <kmc> yesterday I added a feature to a little webapp i built that uses Django's forms support and it generates the form as a table
00:03:02 <kmc> (by default, though it can also generate it using <div> or <li> if you like)
00:03:15 <kmc> i was a little surprised by that, but it looks reasonably good with the table styling i already had in place
00:03:22 <kmc> which is: table { border-collapse: collapse; } table, th, td { border: 1px solid black; } tr:nth-child(even) { background: #ddd; } td, th { padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; }
00:04:20 <zzo38> Yes, it is best to use the <table> command if it is semantically tables.
00:06:18 <kmc> my app is a kind of lab notebook for my mushroom growing projects https://imgur.com/a/D6TydFz
00:06:51 <kmc> it is mostly a CRUD app using Django's built in admin module
00:07:12 <kmc> but i have some custom views too
00:08:11 <kmc> I am pretty happy with Django. it's mature, with documented ways to do almost anything; powerful out of the box, but also customizable, and without *too* much implicit magic behavior a la Rails
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00:23:17 <zzo38> In trying to figure out the bug in Free Hero Mesh, I found out, it seems it isn't a bug in Free Hero Mesh; the same behaviour occurs in Hero Mesh depending on the timing of the replay moves, which is something that nothing is supposed to depend on. I suppose that they failed to follow their own advice about MSG_END_TURN, maybe.
00:23:48 <zzo38> Although, even before writing Free Hero Mesh, I had found bugs in the Hero Defiant class set, causing it to do things that are not supposed to be allowed, and breaking the replay feature.
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00:32:52 <kmc> what is Hero Mesh and Free Hero Mesh?
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01:06:31 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79949&oldid=79947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) Cats, stub, external resources
01:12:29 <zzo38> kmc: Hero Mesh is some puzzle game software for Windows, written by Everett Kaser, and Free Hero Mesh is I try to make the Linux version, by trying everything see what behaviour matches and what doesn't, and also to add many improvements too, such as FOSS.
01:16:36 <zzo38> It isn't enough yet to be enough usable so far, since the level editor and picture editor aren't implemented enough yet, although still you can look if you like to do so.
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03:35:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79951&oldid=76737 * Digital Hunter * (-37)
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16:20:51 <PANOPTES> Object oriented esolang based on the idea of ravoili code.
16:20:52 <PANOPTES> (foo[bar|baz]) defines a class foo with a method bar that does baz.
16:20:52 <PANOPTES> (foo<bar a, bar b>) means that every foo object created has two bar objects associated with it. Aside from the accumulator that every object has, this is the only way to store data.
16:20:53 <PANOPTES> (foo[bar|<foo a>]) creates a foo object a, alog with all of its associated objects, when bar is called.
16:20:53 <PANOPTES> (foo {bar}) does bar when a foo object is created: constructor
16:20:54 <PANOPTES> a.b refers to the vaule of object b of object a, i.e the vaule of the accumulator.
16:20:55 <PANOPTES> (m[m|foo]) is the main class. When the progrm is run, the m method of the m object is run, doing foo.
16:24:22 <PANOPTES> Glass exists but this is cooler.*
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16:34:10 <PANOPTES> Minimal idea: increment, decrement, method call, and instruction if a ggiven value is 0
16:34:54 <PANOPTES> should yield a fairly simple translation to bf i think
16:36:54 <PANOPTES> which makes it somewhat boring
16:38:47 <PANOPTES> like arborealis, tree-based esolang which has a simple translation to bf and thus it's easeir to use bf in arborealis than doing idiomatic things
16:39:24 <PANOPTES> which should feel different from bf
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16:56:23 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79954&oldid=79940 * Nailuj29 * (+133) /* External resources */
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18:15:00 <b_jonas> fungot: has the English Scrabble authority issued an errata yet to make "rona" a valid word? or do they not care because nobody can hold big events like Scrabble Tournaments anyway?
18:15:00 <fungot> b_jonas: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff ( and burning, and no clear account. in that second one is horizontally displaced by 1 pixel is sacred. just me, or i: yet, you rogue!
18:42:37 <b_jonas> I'd like to see a game that parodies ridiculous forms of fast movement in platformers as a mechanic. Pick up speed booster and your character learns a roll that's faster than his normal run. Then pick up speed booster rank 2, and then if you hold the run button, they run faster, but the character animation shows a strafe backwards bunnyhop slide starting from a backwards facing longjump, with a wallkick
18:42:42 <b_jonas> if you start running away from a wall. Only the camera looks the right way, the way you're going rather than the way the character is facing.
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19:55:26 <zzo38> I should suppose they should wait until the next version of the Scrabble dictionary is published, and then it will be valid. (This can be relevant even if you are not playing a tournament, although a different book (with many words omitted, including most words longer than eight letters) will usually be used for a home game.)
21:03:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NezbednikAlt * New user account
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23:38:46 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79955&oldid=79954 * JonoCode9374 * (+148) /* Hello world */ Another example
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01:33:21 <zzo38> Does any programming language have a operator which works like addition, bitwise OR, or bitwise XOR, but with an undefined result if the operands share any bit positions set?
01:35:41 <kmc> not that i'm aware
01:36:36 <kmc> but there is the tristate logic of digital electronics, where 0+Z = 0+0 = 0, 1+Z = 1+1 = 1, and 0+1 = undefined
01:36:40 <kmc> and Z+Z = Z
01:37:34 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, most languages have three such operators, right?
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01:38:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but not an operator that does all three (although if none of the set bit positions are shared, those three operations are equivalent)
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01:40:45 <kmc> (and you can even define "weak" versions of 0 and 1 which override Z but can be overridden by the strong version of either bit)
01:41:53 <kmc> and weak 0 + weak 1 = undefined, but what about (weak 0 + weak 1) + strong 0?
01:42:01 <kmc> i think in the usual CMOS implementation of logic that would be a defined 0
01:42:10 <kmc> but that means that algebraically you need "weak undefined" too
01:43:13 <kmc> and obviously the weak/strong thing breaks down at some point
01:43:50 <kmc> if you have enough different pins driving the same net as "weak 0" then a strong 1 might get it only to undefined or even leave it reading 0
01:45:21 <kmc> the usual solution to that is the open-collector or open-drain bus, wherein you have a single device driving "weak 1" (a pull-up resistor) and the other devices are either strong 0 or Z
01:48:44 <zzo38> I have never seen cases of multiple weak driving the same net at once except in cases where they are all weak (and all the same way 0 or 1), unless I misremembered, or if I missed something. In what I have seen, it is like what you describe, only one weak, the others are strong or Z.
01:56:09 <kmc> I learned the other day that there are "active pull-up" chips like LTC4311 which will feed the bus with extra current while it's rising, and then shut off when it reaches the high voltage so it can be pulled down again
01:56:50 <kmc> thus allowing higher speeds for a given level of bus capacitance
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12:25:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * New user account
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12:39:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79956&oldid=79941 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+130) The introduction of me, Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat! :)
12:42:38 <esowiki> [[User:Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79957 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+88) The website of my user!
12:43:43 <esowiki> [[User:Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79958&oldid=79957 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+4) The website of my user! 2
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13:25:51 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79959 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+2405) Create the wiki for Arsel
13:27:05 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79960&oldid=79959 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (-8) /* The interpreter */
13:28:44 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79961&oldid=79960 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+46) /* The interpreter */
13:29:44 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79962&oldid=79961 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+16) Minor edit
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17:17:43 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79963&oldid=79955 * Nailuj29 * (+76)
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18:56:47 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79964&oldid=79962 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) /* Instructions */ Convert to table
18:58:28 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79965&oldid=79964 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) /* The interpreter */ Cats
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19:23:25 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79966&oldid=79948 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* A */ Add [[Arsel]]
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23:08:11 <zzo38> Is there any .NSF music player which will use two separate filter programs (operating using stdin/stdout), one which converts the NSF to the (infinite) register stream, and one which converts the register stream to the (also infinite) audio stream?
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02:59:30 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79967 * Digital Hunter * (+11861) Created a page on an esolang I made over the past week or so
03:00:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79968 * Digital Hunter * (+111) Created page with "Hello.--~~~~"
03:01:37 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79969&oldid=79950 * Digital Hunter * (+138) /* About me */
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03:03:56 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79970&oldid=78822 * Digital Hunter * (-582) Sorry, this page shouldn't quite exist anymore as my plans for Parent the sizing have been ended. Its spirit lives on in the parens of Parse this sic.
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03:39:57 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79971&oldid=79967 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Info to come */
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10:39:23 <esowiki> [[Gene]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79972&oldid=79817 * Sinthorion * (-1) /* Instruction Set */ spelling mistake
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11:27:33 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79973&oldid=79521 * D * (+178) /* Match / Mismatch */
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11:40:37 <esowiki> [[User:Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79974&oldid=79958 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+116) Minor edit
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12:16:42 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79975&oldid=79973 * D * (+389) /* Introduction */ Add pattern matching info
12:31:56 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79976&oldid=79975 * D * (+118)
12:35:07 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79977&oldid=79976 * D * (+226) /* External resources */
12:35:31 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79978&oldid=79977 * D * (+7) /* External resources */
13:01:43 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79979&oldid=79978 * D * (+77) /* Thread Join */ The rholang cheatsheet https://rholang.github.io/tutorials/cheat-sheet/ appears to have this syntax, I assume it's borrowed from rho-calculus (correct me if I'm wrong)
13:09:44 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79980&oldid=79979 * D * (+659) /* Extensions */
13:13:51 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79981&oldid=79980 * D * (+170) /* Rho calculus */
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13:40:47 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79982&oldid=79981 * D * (+286) /* Extensions */
13:45:07 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79983&oldid=79982 * D * (+285) /* Rho calculus */
13:50:21 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79984&oldid=79983 * D * (-47) /* Arithmetic and common data structures */
13:53:19 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79985&oldid=79984 * D * (+116) /* Rho calculus */
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15:00:56 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79986&oldid=79638 * Quintopia * (+32) infobox
15:04:18 <esowiki> [[Cellbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79987&oldid=45666 * Quintopia * (+36) cat
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16:16:36 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79988&oldid=79485 * Bo Tie * (+1)
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17:30:34 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79989 * Quintopia * (+8125) created page
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18:12:03 <ais523> kmc: VHDL, designed for modelling digital circuits, does indeed have 0, 1, Z, weak 0 (L), weak 1 (H), undefined (X), weak undefined (W)
18:12:14 <ais523> plus two more values, uninitialized (U) and don't care (-)
18:12:27 <ais523> so the "usual" boolean type in VHDL has 9 different values
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20:51:00 <int-e> Hmm would Z be a floating state?
20:51:45 * int-e wonders more about the notion of weakness...
20:54:13 <int-e> Oh I have a guess: A weak zero will pull a line to zero, unless there's a strong 1 on it as well... so useful for busses.
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22:12:10 <zzo38> Is it related to default logic?
22:12:25 <kmc> int-e: yes
22:12:51 <kmc> the usual hardware implementation is a pull-up or pull-down resistor
22:13:08 <kmc> that is, you connect the line to Vcc or ground through a large-ish (~10k ohm) resistor
22:13:45 <kmc> CMOS logic inputs are high-impedance; they only sense voltage, and draw minimal current
22:14:07 <kmc> so if nothing else is driving that line, its voltage will read at nearly Vcc / ground
22:15:45 <kmc> but if an output drives the line then the low-impedance output will form a voltage divider with the relatively high impedance of the pull-up/down resistor, and the resulting voltage is near the ideal voltage for the output
22:16:44 <kmc> (incidentally this is where "Z" comes from, Z is the symbol for impedance, and inputs / floating pins are described as "high-Z")
22:17:55 <zzo38> O, that is why they call it "Z".
22:20:07 <kmc> in terms of DC characteristics CMOS is pretty close to an "ideal" logic family; inputs are very high impedance, so they don't affect the circuits driving them very much, and outputs are very low impedance, so they can drive a lot of inputs at once (high fan-out)
22:20:46 <kmc> it's more complicated in another logic family such as TTL where inputs can end up sourcing or sinking nontrivial current at steady state
22:41:34 <arseniiv> is it known how much CMOS elements are in today’s circuits?
22:41:54 <arseniiv> more or less, in all of them, vs. other types?
22:49:36 <j4cbo> most things are CMOS
22:54:23 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79990&oldid=79989 * Quintopia * (+38) comments
23:06:22 <kmc> yeah, CMOS became the dominant logic family in the 80s
23:10:23 <kmc> the trick is that making a CMOS chip requires fabricating two kinds of transistors (P-type and N-type MOSFETs) on the same wafer and getting good performance from both
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00:01:28 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79991&oldid=79990 * Quintopia * (-118) edits on request
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00:45:26 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79993&oldid=79971 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) wip
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02:36:08 <lambdabot> EFHK 150220Z 35010KT CAVOK M22/M25 Q1020 NOSIG
02:36:25 <fizzie> Brrr. Heard it's pretty cold and snowy back there.
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06:47:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 150620Z 07006KT 2500 -SN BR FEW005 SCT010 BKN018 M05/M06 Q1017 R88/////// TEMPO BKN010
06:48:00 <int-e> just cold, not extraordinarily so
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07:58:16 <int-e> fungot: are you afraid of MTAs?
07:58:16 <fungot> int-e: to. why, this is for you guys are a lot
07:58:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
07:58:34 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
07:58:37 <int-e> fungot: are you afraid of MTAs?
07:58:37 <fungot> int-e: i think i better eat something
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11:43:28 <shachaf> int-e: I forgot I hadn't finished n-stepping.
11:43:39 <shachaf> Looks like I have 11 stars.
11:44:56 <shachaf> I'm really not sure about some of these, hmm.
11:45:03 <int-e> I already forgot how many there were.
11:45:35 <shachaf> I think you might've said 15?
11:45:46 <shachaf> There are three that I see on the map.
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11:47:39 <int-e> It was in a comment... ah: "Amazing game! Finally got all 15 stars"
11:47:50 <int-e> So there are 16 stars on the map. :-P
11:48:39 <shachaf> I also see several places I don't know how to get to.
11:49:18 <int-e> You have a door to open and probably a mechanic to discover.
11:50:02 <shachaf> Let's see. The stars I see are in 4,12, 5,10, and 4,11.
11:50:16 <shachaf> 4,11 I'm pretty sure is just a standalone thing I need to figure out.
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11:51:16 <shachaf> I had some ideas for 4,12 but I don't think any of them worked.
11:51:54 <shachaf> And I assume you have to get to 5,10 from the south.
11:54:55 <shachaf> There's an opening to the east of 8,9, isn't there.
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11:55:02 <shachaf> I got the star there but didn't notice it went on.
11:55:07 * int-e forgot how the coordinates go
11:56:05 <int-e> Oh I can infer that
12:02:22 <int-e> Hmm I don't remember the 4,11 star.
12:03:12 <int-e> I do remember the 4,12 one though, and I have a good idea what you're missing about it :P
12:03:16 <shachaf> I got the one on the right but not the one on the left.
12:03:51 <int-e> Oh okay that makes sense.
12:03:59 <shachaf> OK, for 4,12 you can either enter from the east, or from the west northern entrance half, or the west southern part.
12:04:19 <shachaf> Or maybe you can somehow enter with multiple cats from the west, though if that's possible I haven't figured out how.
12:04:58 <shachaf> If that's the case it'd be a 2,12 puzzle.
12:06:11 <shachaf> Or maybe you enter from the south, of course, and get the star that way.
12:06:19 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm missing something really obvious.
12:06:47 <int-e> It does sound like you have all the pieces.
12:10:20 <shachaf> There as one piece I hadn't figured out in 2,12.
12:11:14 <shachaf> Uh oh, extremely difficult puzzles.
12:11:29 <int-e> Well at least you didn't do what I did...
12:11:40 <int-e> ...pick up the star, rejoice, and reset the level
12:12:04 <int-e> (recall https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png)
12:12:19 <int-e> (this happens if you trust a map)
12:13:25 <shachaf> I had the enter-with-two-cats idea a while before, but I was silly enough that I didn't see how that would even help.
12:14:03 <int-e> I just saw that each of the neighbouring levels has a wide passage connecting them
12:14:28 <shachaf> Yep, that was my clue too.
12:14:39 <shachaf> This "extremely difficult" area sure seems tricky.
12:14:42 <int-e> So I just tried to make use of them to see what happens.
12:15:49 <int-e> (in the screenshot you can see that I was totally oblvious to the hidden rooms at that point)
12:16:32 <shachaf> I don't see anything that'd let you get past two spikes in 3,14, hmm.
12:18:02 <int-e> I don't really recall those levels. Which I guess means that yes, they were hard, but they had no proper aha moments.
12:19:51 <shachaf> I'm more curious about this mechanic I'm missing.
12:20:28 <int-e> I think you didn't miss it after all.
12:21:02 <int-e> (I meant that you can take multiple cats between levels.)
12:21:34 <shachaf> Then I'm curious about the door.
12:21:46 <int-e> I certainly missed that possibility.
12:22:05 <int-e> the door is in 7,8
12:23:03 <int-e> It's the one that needs 15 stars.
12:24:54 <shachaf> Oh, then I've seen it, I just don't have enough stars.
12:25:47 <shachaf> I kind of assumed the mechanic you meant would have to do with the room full of frozen cats.
12:25:52 <int-e> yeah, "missing" has too many meanings
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12:43:13 <b_jonas> "<<kmc> it does not parse as standard HTML5, I don't think" => yes, the difference is that in the XML version, you must write <img src="foo" /> whereas in HTML you should write <img src="foo"> without any slash or closing tag, but in practice that doesn't matter, you can just write the XML-like <img src="foo" />, the HTML standard considers it an error but also HTML reads it correctly so it will work
12:43:19 <b_jonas> everywhere, in any HTML or XHTML reader.
12:43:25 <b_jonas> is there a more serious problem than that?
12:49:28 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Well, according to this book, Boyer-Moore is slower and more complicated than its Horspool simplification." => which book?
12:55:01 <b_jonas> in other news, I can confirm that the shapez.io game is not only enjoyable in an addictive way, but it's also esoteric in the same way as OpenTTD is: the game gives you logic control primitives, and those are more than enoguh to win the game, but there are certain *interesting* things you want to do that are quite hard with the logic tools that are given, and you can find solutions for them that abuse
12:55:07 <b_jonas> those control primitives in weird combinations
12:55:21 <b_jonas> I can give more details if you want, but eventually they become spoilers
13:03:53 <fizzie> <img src="foo" /> is explicitly *not* an error in HTML5.
13:03:56 <fizzie> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#start-tags "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, or if the element is a foreign element, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS character (/). This character has no effect on void elements, but on foreign elements it marks the start tag as self-closing."
13:04:02 <fizzie> (`img` is a void element.)
13:07:33 <fizzie> An XML-style self-closing start tag would be invalid for a normal element, though, so <p /> and suchlike would be errors.
13:15:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, maybe it's only an error in HTML4
13:16:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: does that apply to other similar tags that can be empty, like input, link, meta, and some forms of script and style?
13:17:05 <fizzie> The void elements are: area, base, br, col, embed, hr, img, input, link, meta, param, source, track, wbr.
13:17:20 <b_jonas> sure, <p /> is always an error. you have to surround the paragraph with <p>..</p> in XML but that works fine in HTML, HTML just mostly ignores the </p> tags.
13:17:34 <fizzie> It does not apply to what HTML5 calls "raw text elements" (script, style).
13:18:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, so how do you write a script or style element when their content is empty because they take the script or style from an url specified as an attribute?
13:18:20 <fizzie> I think you still write <script src="..."></script>, even though it looks ugly.
13:18:26 <b_jonas> oh yeah, for style that doesn't exist
13:18:40 <b_jonas> it's <link rel="stylesheet" href="foo" type="text/css" />
13:19:05 <b_jonas> and script is weird for historical compatibility? ok.
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13:42:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EZ132 * New user account
13:49:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79994&oldid=79956 * EZ132 * (+179)
13:56:05 <esowiki> [[User:EZ132]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79995 * EZ132 * (+17) Created page with "Hello! I'm EZ132."
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15:23:58 <esowiki> [[HQ9+~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79997 * EZ132 * (+990) Created page with "'''HQ9+~''' is an extension of [[HQ9+-]] by [[User:EZ132]]. It is [[Turing-complete]] All valid HQ9+- programs are valid in HQ9+~, and will produce the same output. There are..."
15:25:53 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79998&oldid=79863 * EZ132 * (+12) /* Example-based languages */
15:26:09 <esowiki> [[HQ9+~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79999&oldid=79997 * EZ132 * (+1)
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15:51:25 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80004&oldid=77912 * EZ132 * (+61) /* See also */
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16:33:35 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80005&oldid=79993 * Digital Hunter * (+178) /* Three-param */
16:40:21 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80006&oldid=80005 * Digital Hunter * (+418) /* More on words */
16:41:11 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80007&oldid=80006 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Language overview */
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17:09:11 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80008&oldid=79949 * Shahryar * (+579) Added more info
17:11:50 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80009&oldid=80008 * Shahryar * (+6)
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18:45:17 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80010&oldid=79790 * Digital Hunter * (-88) /* C */ This is not a language feature.
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19:32:39 <esowiki> [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80011 * Tetrapyronia * (+1501)
19:33:11 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80012&oldid=79907 * Tetrapyronia * (+46)
19:34:22 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80013&oldid=79906 * Tetrapyronia * (+320) added HQ99+LUFTBALLONS
19:34:53 <esowiki> [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80014&oldid=80011 * Tetrapyronia * (+5)
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19:41:22 <shachaf> b_jonas: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/flexible-pattern-matching-in-strings/D610D1F9C4744A864D73904B24EF602B
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20:27:59 <int-e> but it spends so much more space on regular expressions than flexible matching ;)
20:35:01 <shachaf> I've yet to read the regular expression part.
20:36:22 <shachaf> Though I like this trick for simulating an NFA for searching for a short string: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/search/shift-or.c
20:36:29 <shachaf> Maybe I already talked about that.
20:39:39 <fizzie> Just "maybe", eh? I think it's at least the third time now.
20:52:57 <shachaf> I remember I talked about string matching but not the details.
20:53:06 <shachaf> I didn't see the particular link in the logs.
20:53:33 <int-e> shachaf: you talked about it... I wanted to point out that this is a rather special kind of NFA
20:53:49 <shachaf> Oh, I remember this now, you're right.
20:53:55 <shachaf> It's indeed a special kind of NFA.
20:54:10 <shachaf> I don't think you can support .* with this trick, for instance.
20:54:28 <shachaf> Since all the transitions are forward (except for the initial one).
20:54:42 <int-e> the shift is for the forward transition, isn't it?
20:57:24 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe you could get it with extra tricks...
20:58:10 <shachaf> Also, someone pointed out that since shift distributes over or, you can do two or more transitions at once pretty easily
20:58:35 <shachaf> state = (state >> 2) | (table[text[i]] >> 1) | table[text[i+1]];
21:12:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80015&oldid=79966 * Quintopia * (+18) /* S */
21:13:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:TP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80016 * Expliked * (+235) Created page with "I actually don't think this counts as a "joke" language. I mean it ''is'' turing-complete and it looks fairly usable to me. I'm going to try to implement this because the orig..."
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22:02:08 <kspalaiologos> i think it broke: `Topic: Welcome to ContainersNet!`
22:09:42 <arseniiv> I am not entirely confident about the 0⁰ issue
22:10:14 <arseniiv> I solved all insecurities regarding all limit arguments
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22:31:47 <shachaf> OK, is there a nice way to implement: For each bit k in {a,b,c,...}, if k is set, also set bit k-1.
22:32:43 <shachaf> I guess you can just do an obvious thing there.
22:33:03 <shachaf> Like x | ((x & mask) << 1)
22:33:28 <shachaf> So that's not the question I really wanted.
22:35:27 <shachaf> But maybe the way you really want to handle glob patterns is to search for each substring independently.
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22:47:23 <fizzie> I just connected a smartphone to internet over wired Ethernet, and it feels weird.
22:48:19 <fizzie> (It's not a particularly great phone, especially at this point, and for whatever reason it's now refusing to connect over wifi, even after a reboot, with no sensible error messages.)
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01:12:24 <esowiki> [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80017&oldid=80014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+135) cats
01:13:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80018&oldid=80015 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* H */ Add [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]]
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01:41:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: how do you connect it?
01:41:37 <b_jonas> like what hardware enables that?
01:43:41 <fizzie> A micro-USB to USB type A "OTG" adapter + a USB Ethernet device.
01:45:03 <fizzie> I couldn't find any wired Ethernet settings anywhere (it's a Motorola device running Android 6.0), but it Just Worked anyway. There was even an icon I might not have seen before in the network connectivity area to indicate a wired Ethernet connection.
01:47:02 <fizzie> Other than the Ethernet device, I think the only USB peripherals I've used with a phone have been storage devices, a keyboard, and if I remember correctly a mouse once just to see what'd happen. (I think I got a pointer?)
01:47:50 <int-e> "on the go"... what a useless phrase
01:48:12 <int-e> what information is that conveying that justifies giving it a three letter acronym?
01:48:22 <int-e> what are the alternatives to "OTG" adapters?
01:50:02 <int-e> Oh it's a standard... but still a stupid name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go
01:55:47 <shachaf> int-e: Back to it again. The only star left on the map I see is at 5,10, which I assume you get to from the south.
01:56:56 <int-e> shachaf: How many stars do you have?
01:57:25 <int-e> Then go looking for hidden areas.
01:57:38 <fizzie> Yes, it's a specification, it has something to do with the way the phone switches from being a host and a peripheral.
01:58:08 <fizzie> I think the adapters are somewhat commonly called "OTG" adapters, though I'm not sure if they actually do anything specific.
01:58:28 <zzo38> I don't really like USB so much, though.
01:59:10 <int-e> shachaf: I can give you coordinates if you like
01:59:33 <shachaf> I think there's a hidden area to the east of 8,9, where I already got the star.
01:59:38 <kmc> yes, android will give you a mouse pointer if you connect a mouse by USB or Bluetooth
01:59:53 <int-e> shachaf: right, that's one of them
02:00:37 <shachaf> Other than that the map says you can go south in the near-ending room with the locked door to the north.
02:01:21 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah ignore those... you need to find 15 stars first
02:01:29 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80019&oldid=79991 * Quintopia * (+7) author
02:01:50 <shachaf> OK. So there's that and there's the place marked as "extremely difficult".
02:02:03 <shachaf> I assume each of them has one star.
02:02:54 <int-e> I thought the "extemely difficult" was the area starting at 4,13?
02:02:59 <fizzie> I've got one of those Logitech wireless mice (gave up after a long fight) with three "channels", and I'm only using two of them (via the proprietary receivers). Maybe I should pair the third one with a phone just in case I'm at my desk and holding the phone, and there's a task where a mouse would be better than a finger.
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02:04:06 <int-e> shachaf: well those are both in the same L-shaped area
02:04:15 <kmc> I have done phone-as-USB-host with input devices (keyboard and mouse), storage (USB stick, SD reader) and a second phone (this is part of the migration process for the Pixel 3a, my current phone)
02:04:19 <int-e> and you're done there if you've found the goat
02:04:30 <int-e> which I assume you have
02:04:41 <kmc> it actually ships with a USB-C-plug to USB-A-socket adapter so you can plug your old phone into the new one
02:05:40 <kmc> another use case which I haven't tried yet, but I intend to try and is known to work, is plugging a USB microscope into the phone
02:05:41 <int-e> I knew phones (tablets too) have this dual role capability; I just never encountered the name of that standard, somehow.
02:06:46 <shachaf> But I just figured out what the trick must be.
02:08:03 <shachaf> To the first room, I mean.
02:08:54 <int-e> "Oh" was for not having the goat. Which means you have a visible non-wall on the map
02:09:21 <int-e> Which is unlike my https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png where the map didn't help my progress at all.
02:10:01 <shachaf> I hope it's more of a non-visible non-wall.
02:11:13 <fizzie> Oh, right, I didn't think of the migration, I've of course done that too.
02:12:39 <int-e> shachaf: Oh well, heading out for a walk... you can check https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png to see which areas you're missing (so that screenshot is a bit of a spoiler).
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02:49:08 <esowiki> [[Hat Trick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80020 * Quintopia * (+5878) created page
02:49:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80021&oldid=80018 * Quintopia * (+16) /* H */
02:58:02 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80022&oldid=77735 * Quintopia * (+411) Categories and infobox
02:58:30 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80023&oldid=80022 * Quintopia * (+0) filename ending
02:59:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80024&oldid=80021 * Quintopia * (+13) /* T */
03:10:19 <esowiki> [[Hat Trick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80025&oldid=80020 * Quintopia * (+0) typo
03:17:30 <int-e> fungot: why do people need sleep?
03:17:30 <fungot> int-e: b/ c the ppl giving them actually knew science which is an odd beast. it wants to
03:18:34 <fizzie> Science: it's an odd beast.
03:47:22 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> I couldn't find any wired Ethernet settings anywhere" => must be Android
03:50:00 <b_jonas> "<int-e> I knew phones (tablets too) have this dual role capability" => that's because typing without a keyboard sucks, so they have to allow plugging in a keyboard.
03:53:11 <shachaf> I think they often use wireless keyboards instead.
03:53:46 <shachaf> My guess would be that most people who use tablets with keyboards use either a special tablet-specific connection or Bluetooth.
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04:00:01 <fizzie> I used to have this great little Microsoft Bluetooth "travel" keyboard, but I forgot the (just regular non-rechargeable AAA) batteries in it, and they leaked so badly it was just a lost cause. :/
04:00:47 <fizzie> The "Wedge Mobile Keyboard".
04:03:12 <kmc> yeah I have a bad habit of forgetting about batteries
04:03:24 <kmc> leading primary cells to leak, or rechargables to run down to the point where they're permanently damaged
04:03:31 <kmc> it's kind of an ongoing source of guilt in my life
04:04:02 <kmc> I even have a recurring calendar reminder to "check on all the batteries" but of course it's pretty broad in scope and i don't do it consistently, although there are a few things I rely on for emergency preparedness that I do check at least
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05:08:49 <zzo38> The index for the Fifth Edition rules of Magic: the Gathering contains a loop.
05:20:50 <kmc> zzo38: on purpose?
05:51:53 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80026&oldid=79867 * Quintopia * (+68) more python interps
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06:27:44 <esowiki> [[D1ffe7e45e]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80027&oldid=70748 * Quintopia * (+113) /* Examples */
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10:00:34 <kspalaiologos> the other logger _still_ seems to be connected, even though i even restarted my server and cleared crontab
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10:37:46 <kspalaiologos> i'm wondering if it's just a permission problem or something
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10:47:07 <kspalaiologos> ok, sorry for the spam but i think the problem is solved now
10:47:36 <kspalaiologos> my hosting provider did a thing and i'm now waiting for the support response, in the meantime i moved all of my stuff to a box my friend gave me temporarily
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11:18:10 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80028 * RocketRace * (+1983)
11:18:38 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80029&oldid=80028 * RocketRace * (+23)
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11:26:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80030&oldid=80024 * RocketRace * (+11)
11:26:57 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80031&oldid=80029 * RocketRace * (-4)
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12:27:12 <nakilon> the last one does not show up for me: https://i.imgur.com/5mM6zAX.png
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13:15:01 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80032&oldid=80031 * RocketRace * (+0) 2021
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14:24:24 <fizzie> Yeah, the wiki-IRC bridge rather arbitrarily filters non-printable-ASCII bytes.
14:24:49 <fizzie> I have the last one, but not the first one. That's emoji for you, I guess.
14:25:32 <fizzie> (The last one is U+1FAC2 PEOPLE HUGGING.)
14:28:54 <esowiki> [[PUSH++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80033&oldid=79913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Stub/WIP, cat
14:30:32 <nakilon> Windows has a problem with the same one: https://imgur.com/nFWCQO8
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14:32:00 <fizzie> It's moderately new (from Unicode 13.0).
14:33:47 <fizzie> Debian, though that really means it's more to do with fonts/browsers in this case rather than the OS. I was looking at it in Chrome; in Firefox I've got all of them.
14:35:00 <fizzie> Not sure how Chrome manages to not render U+1F97A FACE WITH PLEADING EYES (the first one).
14:35:17 <fizzie> But also not interested enough to start figuring that out.
14:35:57 <nakilon> they are absolutely the same in Terminal for me: https://i.imgur.com/BlwwclW.png
14:38:24 <nakilon> only the broken one is different in other browsers: FF: https://i.imgur.com/fF4Lhpk.png Safari: https://i.imgur.com/zQU3LTj.png
14:40:03 <nakilon> I suppose one of your browsers relies on OS and another one somehow supplies own Unicode characters; or both rely on OS but Chrome is somehow broken
14:42:07 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80034&oldid=80023 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) /* Examples */ Add examples (HW, Truth-machine, cat)
14:45:59 <fizzie> If I had to guess, I'd say Firefox has bundled in some amount of its own emoji support.
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17:31:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wallacedutra * New user account
18:00:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80035&oldid=79994 * Wallacedutra * (+206) /* Introductions */
18:02:02 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80036 * Wallacedutra * (+122) Created page with " is a joke language but not. Hello World! 420 / !"
18:03:43 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80037&oldid=79998 * Wallacedutra * (+121) /* General languages */
18:06:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80038&oldid=80035 * Wallacedutra * (+11) /* Introductions */
18:13:33 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80039&oldid=80036 * Wallacedutra * (+373)
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18:32:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cxarli * New user account
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18:36:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80040&oldid=80038 * Cxarli * (+210) introduced self
18:37:18 <esowiki> [[Glass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80041&oldid=61019 * Cxarli * (-5) update github username
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18:45:26 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80042&oldid=80039 * Wallacedutra * (+360)
18:47:51 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80043&oldid=80042 * Wallacedutra * (+39)
18:51:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80044&oldid=80040 * Wallacedutra * (+100) /* Introductions */
19:06:54 <esowiki> [[User:Cxarli]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80045 * Cxarli * (+64) Created page with "Welcome to my profile page. I don't really have anything to say."
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19:07:23 <esowiki> [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80046&oldid=78586 * Cxarli * (-40) /* Interpreters */ update github username
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22:10:09 <b_jonas> I wish the bot replaced non-ascii character with a question mark or dot instead of straight up stripping them
22:10:27 <b_jonas> or replace them with something else, like a bang or tilde
22:20:49 <fizzie> Or U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER, maybe. It's in the name.
22:20:54 <fizzie> But yeah, it probably should.
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00:25:38 <b_jonas> it's just a small thing. it doesn't really matter, since there's an URL included.
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02:09:41 <HackEso> 5585:2015-06-16 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'1N;s/\\n/ /\' wisdom/wise \ 5580:2015-06-15 <int-̈e> ` echo It\\\'s neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. >> wisdom/wise \ 5579:2015-06-15 <shachäf> le/rn wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise.
02:10:02 <shachaf> Man, I'd really like to delete that, but now it's not only my call.
02:27:08 <fizzie> Heh, recognized it, did you? I've always found it somehow charming.
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03:58:32 <Arcorann> Maybe something involving widdershins
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05:24:47 <ais523> does anyone here have experience with using dynamic loaders on Linux x86-64 other than ld-linux.so?
05:25:13 <ais523> I'm guessing not, but was idly wondering how difficult it is to use a custom dynamic loader (possibly along with a custom ABI)
05:31:25 <ais523> part of the reason I asked is that I'm getting fed up of all the overhead caused by the use of a fixed ABI, and think it might be interesting to write a programming language implementation where each function has its own ABI
05:32:33 <ais523> e.g. if function f calls function g, ideally you'd want f and g to use different registers for their arguments (and f's argument registers to be preserved by g) so that you wouldn't need to spill %edi
05:33:32 <zzo38> I have not have experience with using other dynamic loaders, but I do like the idea that each function can have its own ABI, and I had a similar idea than what you mention actually.
05:34:23 <zzo38> Although, my idea was to add a special calling convention into LLVM to denote this.
05:37:23 <zzo38> However, if you are not intending to write a portable program (or if you are writing the program for a portable VM), then you can just write it by yourself anyways.
05:40:06 <ais523> although my idea was to get the compiler to work out a suitable ABI for each function, rather than doing it by hand
05:40:30 <ais523> that way, the compiler input can be portable
05:40:43 <ais523> but, interoperating with code that uses more standard ABIs will be difficult
05:41:12 <ais523> you could do it by generating wrapper functions that converted the ABI (also, it only matters if you want to pass a function pointer as an argument to a standard library function)
05:41:15 <zzo38> Yes, having the compiler work it out automatically is what was my idea with adding a special calling convention into LLVM.
05:41:31 <zzo38> (Although you cannot take the address of such functions)
05:42:00 <shachaf> ais523: I wanted to have a language where there was a partial order between calling conventions based on saving extra registers.
05:42:03 <zzo38> Have you read the LLVM documentation?
05:42:04 <ais523> another idea I had was to make code/function pointers 32 bits long, but data pointers 64 bits long
05:42:13 <ais523> zzo38: I have read some of it, but not all of it
05:42:47 <ais523> shachaf: yes, that would make sense
05:42:57 <shachaf> So you could use a function that doesn't clobber as many registers as an unknown function pointer, but at a specific call site you'd have more information.
05:43:01 <ais523> although I think that if you're varying calling conventions, it makes sense to go all the way and vary which arguments are used, too
05:43:11 <ais523> in order to save on renaming of registers
05:43:38 <ais523> oh, another thing that I really really hate is the 16-byte stack alignment in the x86-64 ABI
05:43:40 <shachaf> You mean renaming as in generating code to shuffle them, not the thing the CPU does, I guess?
05:43:49 <ais523> it is optimising for a rare case at the expense of the common case
05:44:19 <shachaf> Do modern CPUs care about alignment for anything? It's not clear to me whether they do.
05:44:31 <ais523> it can have extreme performance impacts sometimes
05:44:48 <zzo38> I know some instruction sets care about alignment and some don't
05:45:02 <ais523> I'm currently debugging something that looks a lot like a performance bug in the processor, it's a very tight loop that speeds up if you add a memory read instruction to it
05:45:03 <shachaf> Yes, x86 has some SIMD instructions with aligned/unaligned variants.
05:45:28 <ais523> but the reason I found this in the first place was that the loop was very alignment-sensitive, varying between about 6 and 11 seconds based on what alignment it was at
05:45:53 <shachaf> Why do you care about the dynamic loader for this?
05:45:59 <zzo38> (For example, in MMIX, all instructions and data are aligned; if you specify an address which is not aligned, the low bits of the address are ignored)
05:46:01 <ais523> and I think that if it happened to hit a "bad" alignment, it had a similar effect to the memory read, making the loop go fast
05:46:06 <shachaf> Are you doing dynamic linking and also caring about these things this much?
05:46:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I thought the same, how is it relevant to dynamic loading?
05:46:46 <ais523> shachaf: mostly out of curiosity, I realised that the existing dynamic linker wouldn't like a system where the calling conventions were different; also, because I'm thinking about what would be required to make drastic changes to a process's memory layout
05:46:48 <zzo38> I should think that automatically making up their own calling conventions will not work at all if the function is to be called dynamically.
05:47:08 <ais523> also because replacing the dynamic linker seems like the easiest way to control what `exec` does to a program
05:47:27 <shachaf> Well, I'd probably sooner disable the dynamic linker and statically link the programs that matter.
05:47:58 <ais523> is it even possible to have a program that doesn't use the dynamic linker at all? if so, what controls its memory layout?
05:48:12 <ais523> presumably the kernel has an appropriate loader available
05:48:21 <shachaf> The kernel loads it according to ELF directives.
05:48:35 <shachaf> But it can do whatever it wants after that.
05:48:47 <zzo38> (Although, it should work if only the same program that defines the function calls it, then it will work without dynamic calling, even if other functions are called dynamically I would think, although entries into your program also need to use standard calling conventions, even if the other functions only used internally can use your own kinds)
05:50:08 <ais523> I'm mildly irritated at modern gcc putting `endbr64` instructions at the start of every externallly function, just in case someone decides to take their address
05:50:38 <ais523> which removes half the security value of that, and also blows up the binary size and instruction decode pipeline
05:50:50 <shachaf> Well, ideally not many functions are extern.
05:51:06 <zzo38> What does "endbr64" instruction mean?
05:51:24 <shachaf> It means that indirect branches to that address are allowed.
05:51:37 <shachaf> If you enable a security option then branches to any other instruction will trap.
05:51:37 <ais523> it's a NOP, but Intel is developing processors which don't allow indirect branches/calls to anything other than an endbr64 instruciton
05:51:52 <shachaf> Or maybe that option isn't available yet, I don't know.
05:52:04 <ais523> it doesn't exist on my processor, at least
05:52:42 <ais523> anyway, the security gain of this seems to be largest if endbr64 instructions are confined to locations where they're actually necessary (it's rare to take the address of a function)
05:53:05 <shachaf> But if the function is extern and you're doing separate compilation, there's no way to know.
05:53:18 <shachaf> Unless you add an annotation for a function you're allowed to take the address of.
05:53:33 <ais523> I'm disappointed that C wasn't created with such an annotation
05:53:49 <shachaf> Mostly I try to put as much as possible into a single translation unit, which also lets you make things static.
05:54:02 <shachaf> But there are many annotations that we wish C had.
05:54:04 <zzo38> Maybe they should allow removing the "endbr64" instruction by writing "register" in the definition of the function, since the "register" command in C means that you are not allowed to take the address of it.
05:54:41 <ais523> amusingly, I had exactly the same idea
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05:55:02 <ais523> shachaf: the problem with large translation units is that it increases the amount you have to recompile upon making a change to the program
05:55:13 <zzo38> Of course that won't work with dynamic linking, but if it is used with static linking then it would work.
05:55:24 <ais523> also, you need sufficiently many translation units to keep all the CPU cores busy in a parallel build
05:55:39 <shachaf> Yes, but compilers should preferably be very fast.
05:55:49 <ais523> zzo38: it could work with dynamic linking; it's very common nowadays to use a configuration in which most functions are marked as not dynamically linkable
05:56:49 <ais523> I think every dynamic library I've worked on in the last >10 years has used a configuration in which functions are not dynamically linkable as default, but a macro is available to specify that a specific function is dynamically linkable
05:57:16 <shachaf> Dynamic linking should be treated as a rare, special-case thing anyway.
05:57:19 <ais523> that way, you can write the library in multiple translation units, but avoid polluting the namespace of a user of your library with your internal non-`static` functions
05:57:20 <shachaf> Most libraries should be static.
05:57:57 <ais523> I can see the argument for a library that's shared between most of the processes on the system being dynamically linked by them, in order to save physical memory
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05:58:25 <ais523> (although this requires that the various copies of it mapped into the various processes that use it are byte-for-byte identical)
05:58:33 <shachaf> I think that argument is not that relevant nowadays.
05:59:25 <shachaf> But the few libraries that are really shared among all processes probably do count as special-case, anyway.
05:59:28 <ais523> the other advantage of dynamic libraries is that you can update them without recompiling the programs that depend on them
05:59:49 <ais523> hmm, libm is still separate from libc for some reason, isn't it?
06:00:26 <ais523> those three are universal enough that merging them would make sense
06:02:04 <shachaf> I think that advantage is weak and the disadvantages outweigh it.
06:02:26 <shachaf> But you could also allow static libraries to be relinked in the same executable.
06:03:53 <shachaf> Agner Fog's https://forwardcom.info/ works that way, I think.
06:04:58 <zzo38> Many programs don't use threads
06:05:29 <ais523> even so, the standard library normally has to at least be *aware* of threads
06:05:44 <ais523> to implement things like `errno` and even `malloc`
06:06:21 <ais523> also I discovered that writing an async-signal-safe `malloc` is harder than it seems
06:06:43 <ais523> if you don't have software transactional memory, you need some way to do an atomic double store of a pointer and the current thread ID
06:06:52 <ais523> (luckily, doing it to consecutive addresses is sufficient)
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10:16:30 <b_jonas> "<ais523> ... I'm getting fed up of all the overhead caused by the use of a fixed ABI" => the usual solution to that is that the optimizer can use a different ABI for functions within a compilation unit, while keeping the usual ABI between compilation units. And when you want such optimization between compilation units, then you artificially export some part of the functions to the calling compilation
10:16:37 <b_jonas> units using C99 inline functions, C++ templates, or rust inline functions.
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10:19:43 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Do modern CPUs care about alignment for anything?" => yes in the sense of performance. the only common case when it causes slowdowns is when you access data that crosses the boundary of 64-bit pages, but if you don't align your data then you will have such cases. also some SSE instructions (but not AVX ones) do require 16 byte alignment and fault if they don't get it.
10:20:20 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Yes, x86 has some SIMD instructions with aligned/unaligned variants." => that doesn't apply to modern CPUs though, those instructions are treated the same now
10:22:10 <b_jonas> "<ais523> is it even possible to have a program that doesn't use the dynamic linker at all?" => in theory yes; in practice there are parts of libc that you can't use without, and it's very hard to get rid of libc in big practical programs in practice, the whole infrastructure is built around it.
10:22:46 <b_jonas> the kernel mostly supports that because it has to load the dynamic linker somehow, and loading that is the same ELF loading process as loading a program without a dynamic linker.
10:25:15 <b_jonas> “<zzo38> Maybe they should allow removing the "endbr64" instruction by writing "register" in the definition of the function” => I think that might conflict with some modern C++ modules nonsense thing that reuses the register keyword, I'm not sure
10:25:29 <b_jonas> you'd have to check before you use it
10:26:29 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, crossing page boundaries (or cache line boundaries) certainly can have real effects. I meant things like unaligned loads within a cache line.
10:27:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I can see the argument for a library that's shared between most of the processes on the system being dynamically linked by them, in order to save physical memory / (although this requires that the various copies of it mapped into the various processes that use it are byte-for-byte identical)" => that is what actually happens these days, at least on x86_64 which has PC-relative instructions and
10:27:45 <b_jonas> enough registers and so supports efficient position-independent code and can load the same code segments to different addresses in different processes effectively.
10:27:50 <b_jonas> (I think it still happens on x86, but with more overhead.)
10:28:41 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I think that argument is not that relevant nowadays." => I think it's still relevant, at least in some workloads like browsers or JVM or similar that have dozens of threads or processes with the same huge set of libraries in them
10:29:21 <b_jonas> "<ais523> hmm, libm is still separate from libc for some reason, isn't it?" => I think on x86_64 it's not, and libm is an empty library that's present only for compatibility there
10:30:12 <b_jonas> libpthread might be separate, I'm not sure, but parts of libc only work if you tell it at compile time with a macro that the process uses pthreads, which the shorthand -pthreads option to gcc does.
10:30:49 <b_jonas> or maybe libm is empty on later versions of libc and this has nothing to do with x86_64? I don't know
10:32:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: modern cpus don't currently mind unaligned loads or stores within a cache line, except for those SSE instructions that can raise a fault (depending on some process-global mode bit I think)
10:33:17 <b_jonas> plus there's some magic about alignment modulo 16 bytes that matters for code performance, namely for the decoder and for some of the jump prediction
10:33:30 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure of the details
10:36:01 <b_jonas> I for one think it's generally a good idea to keep every data naturally aligned, except in those cases when you really can't because you need shifts such as for pixel buffer operations, and in those cases try to keep writes aligned. it's a guideline that makes it easy to avoid access crossing cache line boundaries, and it's generally easier to keep in a complicated program across functions than directly
10:36:07 <b_jonas> figuring out what crosses page boundaries when your data may be allocated by some other function.
10:37:37 <b_jonas> as for ais523's original problem, the 16 byte vs 8 byte stack alignment, I'm not quite sure
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11:14:36 <b_jonas> can it cause problems (with any compiler or tools) to have C or C++ header files that only have comments, nothing else?
11:15:08 <b_jonas> I don't think it can, but if it can, then I'll include some dummy declaration.
11:29:16 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80054&oldid=79262 * Supyovalk * (+30) added compute
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16:55:31 <esowiki> [[Blub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80056&oldid=77815 * Jb * (+1374) added loop example
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21:25:55 <zzo38> Glulx has malloc, free, and sbrk, but not realloc.
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21:51:08 <zzo38> Do you know if GCC or LLVM can target any instruction set where the stack has a separate address space which you cannot access?
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00:06:55 <Laclale> Hello, I found unlisted EsoLang from MIT Mystery Hunt!
00:07:36 <Laclale> http://web.mit.edu/puzzle/www/2014/puzzle-solution/callooh_callay_world/
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00:45:39 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80061 * Zero player rodent * (+163) Created page with "Hello, I am '''Zero player rodent'''. I like esoteric programming languages. [https://siddikinz-zone.neocities.org/programming.html Here are some of my programs.]"
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01:22:58 <b_jonas> Laclale: great. edit information about it to the wiki.
01:41:28 <noomy> working with my Parallax Propeller 2 is so far proving fun. but the unofficial LLVM port someone made is in a... questionable state
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04:10:36 <zzo38> I should add the possibility that a picture can be defined as a copy of another picture, but optionally rotated/flipped and optionally replacing some colours with others. However, mainly my difficulty is, what is it called?
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05:20:25 <int-e> Is there an optimized shell tool doing sort -n | tail -n <NNN>?
05:20:49 <int-e> (without sorting the whole input. just curious, I have no urgent need for this.)
05:21:36 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
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12:26:29 <nakilon> how do you imagine getting the tail without sorting the whole input?
12:29:08 <nakilon> ah, you probably mean to get the Nth maximal value first somehow
12:36:56 <fizzie> It's called partial sorting, and you can definitely do it in O(n + k log k), which can easily be an improvement in practice over O(n log n) for small enough k.
12:38:31 <fizzie> Or something along those lines, anyway, exact complexity left as an exercise for the reader, the point was just that only requiring the first k items does make sorting less expensive.
12:41:20 <int-e> fizzie: Sure, but the question was whether there's a tool that does it.
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12:41:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know of one. It does come up with a lot, I guess it's just that usually in a context where it's not infeasible to do the full sort.
12:42:57 <int-e> And I was looking for O(n log k) but O(k) memory. (Or can you do O(n + k log k) in that case as well? I should figure that out.)
12:43:26 <int-e> And yeah, my file was certainly small enough to sort completely.
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12:45:25 <int-e> (O(k) memory in a streaming scenario, as part of a pipe)
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13:13:32 <fizzie> Right, it's definitely not obvious whether you can do O(n + k log k) time with O(k) memory in a streaming setup. I was thinking of the partial quicksort there, if it wasn't guessable, but that would presumably involve O(n) memory. The k-sized heap's O(n log k) with O(k) memory, I guess.
13:15:25 <fizzie> I feel like I do `... | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head -n 10` a lot too.
13:16:15 <int-e> You can also sort chunks of length k and merge and discard the bottom half... which might beat the heap if you already have super-optimized sorting routine.
13:17:03 <int-e> yeah I do that sort (hah) of stuff a lot as well
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13:18:27 <int-e> Though if you involve sort | uniq -c it's unclear how much you gain by reducing memory usage of the rest of the pipe. It couldn't hurt, of course.
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13:57:53 <esowiki> [[Ases]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80062&oldid=68910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Cats, comp. class
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14:16:33 <rain1> I feel like I never heard of partial sorting before! that's interesting
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15:33:58 <Taneb> Do you think we can make "natural domain" a thing for integral domains but without additive inverses
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15:35:15 <Taneb> (so ring : integral domain :: semiring/rig : natural domain)
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16:05:02 <b_jonas> "<int-e> Is there an optimized shell tool doing sort -n | tail -n <NNN>?" => I wrote one of that once, but it was more than 10 years ago so the coding style is terrible. I'd rather write a new one than use it. And it looks like there's no doc of what format it wants either. https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=333850 and https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=515032
16:08:08 <b_jonas> Sometimes I just do an optimization like (du -a pathname | grep -E "^[0-9]{7}" | sort -n)
16:09:07 <b_jonas> rain1: if you want to read about it, read in either Knuth's TAOCP volume 3, or the Cormen–Leiserson–Rivest–Stein Algorithms book.
16:09:54 <b_jonas> this applies both for partial sorting, and for the here more relevant algorithms to get the top items of a long external list in one pass with limited memory
16:10:48 <b_jonas> "<int-e> Though if you involve sort | uniq -c it's unclear how much you gain by reducing memory usage of the rest of the pipe." => yeah, I usually do this on du, including on some directories with lots of descendants
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17:40:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80063&oldid=80059 * Pen Island * (+207) /* Introductions */
17:42:53 <esowiki> [[User:Pen Island]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80064 * Pen Island * (+2) i say hi and thats it
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18:55:18 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80065 * Pen Island * (+4464) I talk about this atrocity i've made, the documentation, and a few examples on how to code in it (Implemented)!
18:57:06 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80066&oldid=80065 * Pen Island * (+24)
18:58:34 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80067&oldid=80066 * Pen Island * (+23)
18:59:50 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80068&oldid=80067 * Pen Island * (+6) correction time
19:04:19 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80069&oldid=80068 * Pen Island * (+28) added category
19:05:05 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80070&oldid=80069 * Pen Island * (+0) oops
19:14:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80071&oldid=80053 * Pen Island * (+17)
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19:16:10 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80072&oldid=80070 * Pen Island * (+24) added implemented
19:19:28 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80073&oldid=80072 * Pen Island * (+49) /* Interpreter */
19:24:25 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80074&oldid=80073 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Indexes */ Correct sentence (to my understanding)
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20:47:17 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80075&oldid=80074 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+559) /* How2Code */ Add examples
20:47:30 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80076&oldid=80075 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Indexes */ Why this was reverted?
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23:33:57 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80077&oldid=80076 * Pen Island * (+1) index in the jump_equal instruction (truth machine) was wrong (tested in interpreter)
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23:44:47 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80078&oldid=80077 * Pen Island * (-29) cat program was completely broken (also tested in interpreter)
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00:08:25 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80079&oldid=80078 * Pen Island * (+228) added new instruction into interpreter and documentation, also updated the cat program further simplyfing it!
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00:51:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80080 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+219) /* Source request */ new section
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01:08:51 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80081&oldid=80079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Cat program */ Should work now (should halt on null char)
01:57:19 <esowiki> [[I don't care about esolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80082 * Quintopia * (+280) parking this name
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03:08:32 <ais523> shachaf: I was reading about the reasons people use shared rather than statically linked libraries, and the most compelling reason seems to be "you want to link code written in a compiled language together with code written in an interpreted language"
03:08:56 <ais523> that way, the interpreter can load the shared library at runtime, without needing to change the interpreter executable
03:09:12 <ais523> however, it strikes me that there's quite a difference between dlopen() … dlsym() … call via function pointer
03:09:24 <ais523> and having ld.so do relocations
03:09:39 <shachaf> Hmm, language implementation details don't seem to be that compelling.
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03:10:23 <shachaf> I guess the thing here is that you need to do relocations on the .a to be able to use it.
03:10:39 <shachaf> Whereas the .so mostly just works as-is, and you just need some runtime relocations?
03:11:00 <ais523> so I think my current view is along the lines of "shared libraries don't seem all that useful when it comes to making hardcoded function calls directly to functions in them, but loading a library and extracting function pointers from it at runtime may still be a useful operation"
03:11:03 <ais523> Perl actually allows you to link to code in static libraries, but it requires recompiling the perl(1) executable
03:11:49 <ais523> there are lots of similarities between .so and .a, the only real difference is when the relocations happen
03:11:51 <shachaf> Many libraries require you to use dlopen/dlsym (or an equivalent) for regular use.
03:12:21 <ais523> I'm surprised at that; most of the best-known shared libraries (libc, libm, libz, libpng, etc.) are designed to be linked against directly
03:12:25 <shachaf> Anyway, I think that whatever language your program is written in, you should be able to make a self-contained executable that works with minimal system dependencies.
03:12:32 <ais523> you *could* dlopen/dlsym them but it would be a weird thing todo
03:12:33 <shachaf> I'm thinking of things like OpenGL.
03:13:02 <ais523> well, thinking about it one way, most executables are specific to a particular operating system
03:13:11 <ais523> but with shared libraries, there's no real reason that has to be the case
03:13:31 <ais523> I can easily imagine a dynamically linked executable that works on both Linux and BSD via dynamically linking to different libcs
03:14:13 <ais523> but, that isn't a very popular thing to do (to the extent that the more common portability solution is for the OS to have a mechanism to change its system call interface to mimic another OS's, asking userspace for help when it sees a system call it doesn't understand
03:14:43 <ais523> graphics libraries strike me as something that might quite plausibly vary between computeres
03:14:55 <shachaf> Linux and BSD are very similar. It seems trickier with Windows, for instance.
03:15:13 <ais523> like, does it make sense for every program to have statically linked-in functions for talking to ATI, NVidia, Intel, etc. graphics cards? what if a new one is released
03:15:14 <shachaf> Broadly I agree that the core of your program should be platform-independent.
03:15:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I think the situation with OpenGL etc. is pretty bad, though.
03:15:41 <shachaf> Where in theory it's portable, but in practice you run into vendor-specific issues anyway.
03:15:56 <shachaf> And on top of that, there are more graphics libraries that you need to support than actual vendors of graphics cards.
03:16:10 <shachaf> At least Direct3D, Metal, Vulkan, OpenGL (ES).
03:16:14 <ais523> the Linux console recently added support designed to make Wine and friends more efficient; it works via having two programs mapped into the same address space, the program you're running and a system call emulator
03:16:43 <ais523> if it sees a system call from the program, it just bounces it to the system call emulator and lets it take care of it, if it gets a system call from the emulator then it handles it as normal
03:16:56 <ais523> err, Linux the kernel, not the console
03:17:36 <shachaf> This sounds a lot like having the emulator attached as a debugger.
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03:18:59 <shachaf> But why is this necessary for WINE? Windows doesn't have a system call interface.
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03:19:11 <ais523> <ais523> it's a lot more efficient than ptrace, and more efficient than seccomp
03:19:27 <ais523> and Windows does have a system call interface internally, it's just hidden from the user
03:19:50 <ais523> and not documented I think
03:20:04 <shachaf> Aha, is this https://lwn.net/Articles/824380/ ?
03:20:14 <shachaf> It says "Windows applications are increasingly executing system calls directly rather than going through the API".
03:20:28 <ais523> it could be; I noticed this in the Linux source documentation
03:20:53 <ais523> but yes, that article seems to be describing the same mechanism
03:21:16 <shachaf> I see. So they don't go through PTRACE_SYSEMU for most system calls, only for system calls that are executed directly by the application.
03:21:49 <shachaf> So depending on which part of memory the syscall instruction is in, it's either handled by a SYSEMU-like mechanism or is just hanled directly.
03:22:04 <ais523> ah right, it seems to be describing an older version of the same mechanism
03:22:14 <ais523> the spec changed a bit since that was written
03:23:12 <ais523> I'm trying to remember
03:24:47 <ais523> guess I'll go read the docs again, they take a while to decompress though
03:25:16 <shachaf> I'm searching the Linux and WINE source for relevant strings and not finding them.
03:26:17 <ais523> hmm, I can't find it there either
03:26:27 <ais523> now I'm really confused, because I must have read this somewhere or else I wouldn't know about it
03:26:45 <ais523> it isn't in man prctl or man mmap
03:27:13 <int-e> shachaf: Oh n-step Steve got an update so that you can actually trust the map after you have all the kittens
03:27:30 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no, I'd better get back to that.
03:27:42 <ais523> maybe it's in a newer version of the Linux sources than I happen to have handy
03:27:47 <shachaf> Apparently I have 14 stars.
03:28:13 <shachaf> So I just need to get east of 8,9.
03:28:39 <shachaf> I have three solutions for getting the flag far enough for the stars, but none of them to get to the next room.
03:32:48 <shachaf> Everything I do is off by 1.
03:38:39 <shachaf> They end with the accessible 8-flag either where it is, or two squares north, or one square south.
03:38:55 <shachaf> If I could end with it one square north, it seems easy.
03:39:30 <shachaf> But to do that I'd have to do something like push the 7-flag left.
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03:51:44 <shachaf> The main problem is that when I run this for a while, it spins my fans up and gets slow and unpleasant.
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04:02:09 <shachaf> ais523: I found it: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/admin-guide/syscall-user-dispatch.rst
04:02:12 <int-e> shachaf: Oh, I figured it out again.
04:04:17 <shachaf> My guess is I'm not on quite the right track.
04:05:35 <int-e> there's some pretty intricate parity hacking in this one
04:05:59 <ais523> shachaf: aha, that file isn't in my Linux source, so it must just be too new
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04:23:12 <shachaf> Oh, if I'd looked a little more, I'd've found https://lwn.net/Articles/826313/ on LWN.
04:39:19 <int-e> shachaf: if you want to reduce the search space, this is a viable start: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty3.png obviously this is a spoiler, even though what remains to be done is still a challenge, I believe.
04:44:05 <shachaf> I've certainly been in that state many times.
04:44:46 <int-e> yeah that's expected
04:45:06 <int-e> I mean I kept comping back to it because it felt like the most promising one.
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05:05:59 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right! you need tricks to deliver syscalls that way now, because x86 has two generations of new system call instructions, rather than just the old 286 interrupt gate mechanism. if we still had the old mechanism, this would be trivial, because DOS, Win32, and Linux syscalls just used different interrupt numbers.
05:06:54 <int-e> two, oh, syscall and sysenter, in some order
05:08:22 <shachaf> b_jonas: Well, you'd need some kernel support regardless.
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05:08:38 <shachaf> int-e: I don't think anyone uses sysenter these days.
05:08:47 <shachaf> I'm not sure any amd64 CPU ever used it?
05:10:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, but we already have kernel support that lets it forward interrupts originating in userspace to userspace, not only for real mode DOS emulation, but also for division by zero and floating point interrupts and a few other such weird things. they're not used often, but they exist.
05:11:10 <b_jonas> even the breakpoint interrupt is handled that way: the kernel just sends a signal to the process, filling out the siginfo struct, and if the debugger wishes, it catches that signal with ptrace.
05:11:44 <int-e> shachaf: https://wiki.osdev.org/Sysenter#Compatibility_across_Intel_and_AMD ...funny :)
05:11:46 <shachaf> But you don't have a guarantee that no other system uses int $0x80
05:13:02 <b_jonas> whereas for system calls, the kernel actually has to distinguish between the three Linux syscall layers: 64-bit, x32 (deprecated, distinguished by a bit in the syscall number), 32-bit (distinguished by the userspace running 32-bit code); and I think BSD distinguishes between BSD syscalls and emulated Linux syscalls, though maybe those are the same syscalls with just a process-global setting or something
05:14:23 <b_jonas> "But you don't have a guarantee that no other system uses int $0x80" => real mode programs use it, sure, but emulating real mode programs needs a lot of custom support, both from the kernel side and from the userspace.
05:14:48 <b_jonas> but there aren't many protected mode supervisors, presumably Linux or whoever chose that interrupt number chose one that didn't clash with the other ones
05:16:03 <b_jonas> like, I've no idea what syscall interfaces Win16 and Win95 and WinNT and OS/2 and the two or three big DOS protected mode enchancers use, but Linus or whoever chose that syscall number probably knew about all that when they started to write x86_32 system-level code
05:16:56 <b_jonas> and if you want to emulate an operating system that is really uncooperative, then you need a full machine virtualizer anyway, and x86 has like three or four underlying mechanisms for that already
05:17:04 <shachaf> Windows doesn't have a stable ABI for this.
05:17:07 <b_jonas> although now that I think of it
05:17:35 <b_jonas> like how does it handle system calls from the processes it runs?
05:17:44 <b_jonas> user-mode linux, the one that HackEso uses
05:18:02 <shachaf> PTRACE_SYSEMU lets you handle system calls yourself.
05:18:20 <shachaf> Ah, `man ptrace` mentions that that's what it's for.
05:18:50 <b_jonas> that sounds rather impractical. I imagine the details get messy
05:20:22 <b_jonas> ah well, I consider myself a user-mode programmer, I don't want to get into the details of system programming
05:22:31 <b_jonas> of course I'm willing to do messy stuff in user space instead
05:23:52 <int-e> almost any use of ptrace gets messy :)
05:24:32 <shachaf> I just measured out of curiosity and `perf trace` is way way faster than strace.
05:24:44 <shachaf> Sometimes it drops events, but maybe that's that's what you want.
05:24:52 <shachaf> Too bad it needs a lot more permission.
05:25:05 <shachaf> (It looks like it needs the same permissions to trace a child as to trace the entire system.)