00:00:20 <fizzie> BBC stream is a bit late too.
00:00:29 <fizzie> More than a minute, less than two.
00:00:30 <b_jonas> happy new year UK, Portugal, Iceland, and everyone in UTC+0
00:03:45 <fizzie> They're doing a drone show instead of the traditional fireworks.
00:04:08 <fizzie> It kinda leaked out early because they had to do an aviation traffic thingie to fly 300 drones in formation.
00:05:35 <b_jonas> wait what? isn't that a Marvel movie plot?
00:06:04 <b_jonas> with the bad buy controlling the drones
00:06:29 <fizzie> Mmaybe? But they've been doing these for a while now in reality too.
00:06:40 <b_jonas> I mean how long battery time
00:06:53 <fizzie> I don't know, but this show takes just 10 minutes or so.
00:07:20 <b_jonas> 10 minutes. but with, I assume, brighter than usual led lighting.
00:07:29 <b_jonas> that shouldn't be too heavy
00:07:30 <fizzie> They're really just one of those RGB LED screens, except you can move the pixels around.
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00:09:38 <fizzie> Looks like they're doing a little bit of regular fireworks too, just not as much as usual, and with no spectators around.
00:12:43 <kmc> not sure what my city's doing tonight
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01:46:41 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79755&oldid=79746 * Tetrapyronia * (+18) year
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02:28:50 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79756&oldid=75412 * Digital Hunter * (+24) /* About me */
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04:02:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:SELENE.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79757 * Quintopia * (+486) Q's
04:59:21 <zzo38> Do you have feature requests for Free Hero Mesh or any of my other software projects?
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05:06:51 <zzo38> Does analog television work with the common hobbyist level SDR sticks?
05:33:09 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79758&oldid=79755 * Tetrapyronia * (+285) (hopefully?) fixed specifications
05:36:37 <kmc> zzo38: no, I don't think so. standard NTSC has a 6 MHz bandwidth, PAL is about the same, and the RTL-SDR sticks max out around 2.4 MHz
05:36:41 <kmc> maybe you could use two
05:39:19 <kmc> the chip they use is actually a digital TV tuner chip (https://www.realtek.com/en/products/communications-network-ics/item/rtl2832u)
05:39:57 <kmc> but the raw I/Q output mode, which enables its myriad hobbyist uses as a cheap SDR receiver, doesn't support the full bandwidth of a TV signal
05:41:01 <zzo38> O, OK. Do you know if any SDR has a hardware switch to disable transmit in case you want to receive only, even if it is capable to transmit if you activate that switch?
05:41:06 <kmc> maybe due to USB limitations, I'm not sure
05:42:05 <kmc> in the original use case for the chip, the I/Q mode is used for audio broadcast reception (FM/DAB)
05:42:15 <kmc> zzo38: I don't know
05:42:27 <kmc> but many of them have separate ports for transmit and receive
05:42:34 <kmc> for example my bladeRF has
05:43:15 <kmc> so if you want to disable transmit, you could leave the TX port open or, ideally, attach an impedance-matched dummy load
05:43:34 <kmc> although, dummy loads aren't perfectly shielded and a very nearby radio might still be able to hear it
05:44:23 <kmc> I don't know if any SDR has a hardware switch to disable the TX frontend, although it seems like a good thing to have and should also be easy to do
05:46:11 <kmc> the output power of the bladeRF is low to begin with (6 dBm, or about 4 mW)
05:46:36 <kmc> in many cases you would feed that into an external amplifier, and could effectively disable transmit by disconnecting or removing power from that
05:50:34 <kmc> then again, people manage to send signals around the globe on milliwatts
05:50:55 <kmc> with the right combination of good antenna, good conditions, and very slow data rate
05:55:53 <kmc> QRSS is a fairly esoteric idea
05:56:20 <kmc> sending/receiving morse code at a speed where a single dot takes 1-5 minutes
05:59:09 <kmc> generally not done by hand/ear!
05:59:18 <kmc> would require quite a bit of patience
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06:06:13 <zzo38> I haven't heard of that before now (unless I did and I had forgot)
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08:11:18 * Taneb is thinking about making an OEIS account
08:15:23 <moony> Fixing to obtain a Propeller 1
08:15:41 <moony> it's successor resembles an esoteric CPU. but it isn't and it's amazing
08:21:31 <Taneb> The sequence I want to add to OEIS begins "15, 353, 143, 323, 899, 1763, 3599"
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08:35:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:SELENE.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79759&oldid=79757 * Quintopia * (+144) question
09:08:55 <b_jonas> it's actually 2021. can you beleive it?
09:09:19 <HackEso> 2021-01-01 09:09:18.881 +0000 UTC January 1 Friday 2020-W53-5
09:09:29 <HackEso> 2021-01-01 10:09:29.470 +0100 CET January 1 Friday 2020-W53-5
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09:33:08 <moony> b_jonas: install sdate, run `sdate -e 2020-12`, and be revealed the truth: it's dec 32nd
09:41:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TehChar1337 * New user account
09:45:52 <b_jonas> also the Wiener Philharmoniker new year concert is going to start in half an hour. I'm preparing so I can watch it uninterrupted.
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09:47:53 <HackEso> sdate? No such file or directory
09:50:39 <moony> https://github.com/df7cb/sdate
09:54:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79760&oldid=79716 * TehChar1337 * (+467) /* Introductions */
10:09:16 <b_jonas> TV is now broadcasting ads before it
10:10:10 <b_jonas> and right now I'm trying to make sure that I've got the FM radio set up correctly as a fallback in case there's a problem with the internet TV
10:10:30 <b_jonas> but they're just playing music so it's hard to tell that it's the right channel
10:11:38 <b_jonas> conveniently the internet TV will be delayed a bit, so if it fails, I can quickly switch to the radio and, in theory, not miss anything, though of course it's not nice to have music interrupted that way
10:14:12 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79761&oldid=79758 * Tetrapyronia * (-2)
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10:15:25 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79762&oldid=79761 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
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10:15:33 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUb7eJttOPg
10:15:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79763&oldid=79759 * Tetrapyronia * (+183)
10:15:36 <b_jonas> anyone wants to guess what the very last ad before the concert will be?
10:15:57 <b_jonas> it was a very short ad for cheese
10:16:19 <b_jonas> (may be spelled different)
10:17:05 <b_jonas> ah yes, and there's an ad within the concert, copied from the stream from Wien:
10:17:18 <b_jonas> an overlay of "presented by: Rolex"
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10:21:59 <b_jonas> that was a weird waltz that I've never heard before, but its style matches my expectations for this concert
10:22:12 <b_jonas> empty concert hall is so weird
10:22:19 <b_jonas> would never expect that for this concert
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10:22:54 <b_jonas> stage is still very crowded with musicians
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10:23:04 <b_jonas> looks like they'd need a bit larger stage
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10:23:28 <b_jonas> I mean crowded even for pre-2020 standards
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10:26:10 <b_jonas> video is showing old automated music instruments in operation, I failed to catch which museum they're from
10:26:19 <b_jonas> care to guess which castle the ballet will be in this time?
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10:28:27 <b_jonas> must be that one big museum featured on that youtube channel, there probably aren't many that have this large a collection
10:28:50 <b_jonas> and that weird four-violin automatic violin player setup in particular
10:29:27 <b_jonas> with four violins inside the rotating circular bow, each violin pressed into it when the corresponding string is supposed to play
10:29:58 <b_jonas> I don't recall what city that museum is in but I'll look it up on youtube later
10:31:09 <b_jonas> I think it was in Köln or nearby
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10:32:56 <b_jonas> dubbing announcer says museum in Wien
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10:33:23 <b_jonas> the Techniches Museum even. I've been to that museum, there's no way it has these automated instruments
10:33:28 <b_jonas> I'll have to look these up
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10:38:15 <b_jonas> hehe, nice moving moire pattern as the moving camera in the far end of the hall shows the organ with its rhythm of vertical pipes
10:38:31 <b_jonas> (might be visible only in low res)
10:39:32 <b_jonas> anyone else watching or listening live?
10:41:18 <b_jonas> I wish TVs didn't insist on having an always visible channel logo overlay. It made sense back in the analog TV days so you can easily tell which channel you tuned in, but these days with digital and internet TV it's rather redundant, they always put the channel name as meta-information anyway
10:42:12 <b_jonas> there's probably even a standard to send the logo as meta-info so the TV can display the list of channels in one of these silly icon mosic formats
10:42:35 <b_jonas> I've no idea, I almost never watch actual TV
10:42:57 <b_jonas> I don't even have a TV tuner of any sort
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10:44:25 <b_jonas> (maybe someone is watching, but not paying attention to IRC at the same time)
10:46:16 <b_jonas> look, the stage is so crowded that some musicians are sitting in these shallow cubbies right next to the wall. isn't that actually bad for accoustics?
10:46:32 <b_jonas> like, not terribad, but something they'd avoid in sucha high quality professional concert
10:48:04 <b_jonas> standing, rather then sitting, because they're playing the double bass
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11:47:09 <b_jonas> it's also eerie how, as there's no audience, there's very little applause between the tracks, only the musicians applaud
11:47:35 <b_jonas> I can't imagine how the Radetzky march will go without audience applause
11:48:33 <b_jonas> ballet is present, I didn't catch the location, but maybe they'll announce it afterwards
11:52:19 <int-e> fungot: are we all there?
11:52:20 <fungot> int-e: oh. arcus! ' til the last moments... it seems that
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12:06:37 <b_jonas> I approve of the choice of music after the recess
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12:21:50 <b_jonas> ooh! they're playing audience applaud sounds right now, the dub announcer says they're from people who submitted and sent the applause in advance
12:22:02 <b_jonas> and showing photos of those viewers who sent them in
12:22:19 <b_jonas> (also musicians' approval obviously)
12:25:24 <b_jonas> conductor is talking in English
12:26:36 <b_jonas> pity they're dubbing it over
12:26:56 <b_jonas> (I'm watching in Hungarian television; will try to get the original ORF stream later)
12:27:18 <b_jonas> he's giving a rather long speech
12:28:04 <b_jonas> the dubbing is bad btw, the announcer isn't a reporter but not an interpreter and so translating it bad
12:40:11 <b_jonas> what is the red pin badge on the conductor's lapel?
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12:43:40 <b_jonas> the concert was good, high quality as usual, I enjoyed it,
12:43:56 <b_jonas> but the ending was a downer because they had to play the Radetzky marsh without audience applause
12:55:38 <b_jonas> internet answers that the location of the ballet was https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palais_Liechtenstein_(F%C3%BCrstengasse)
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14:06:55 <esowiki> [[Hot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79764 * Hakerh400 * (+2854) +[[Hot]]
14:07:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79765&oldid=79747 * Hakerh400 * (+10) +[[Hot]]
14:07:58 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79766&oldid=79764 * Hakerh400 * (+56)
14:11:44 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79767&oldid=79766 * Hakerh400 * (-19)
14:12:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79768&oldid=79752 * Hakerh400 * (+41)
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14:20:08 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79769&oldid=79767 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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15:58:29 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79770&oldid=76861 * Maxi * (+597) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
16:01:08 <esowiki> [[User:TehChar1337]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79771 * TehChar1337 * (+42) Created page with "I am the creator of the PureHell language."
16:01:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:TehChar1337]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79772 * TehChar1337 * (+28) Created page with "Discuss here about PureHell!"
16:02:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79773&oldid=79770 * Maxi * (+0) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
16:26:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ALotOfKelp * New user account
17:14:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79774&oldid=79773 * Maxi * (-11) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
17:25:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:C2BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79775&oldid=60726 * Maxi * (+146)
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17:41:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79776&oldid=79760 * HVMarci * (+39)
17:42:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79777&oldid=79776 * HVMarci * (+81)
17:43:03 <esowiki> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79778&oldid=68786 * HVMarci * (+41) Link to rule 110 wiki page
18:16:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79779&oldid=79774 * Maxi * (-171) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
18:28:46 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79780&oldid=79779 * Maxi * (+171) Undo revision 79779 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxi|Maxi]] ([[User talk:Maxi|talk]])
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19:11:24 <arseniiv> <fizzie> They've got a conventional orchestra playing an arrangement of Darude's Sandstorm to celebrate. => wow neat!
19:12:52 <arseniiv> HNY to everyone who wants late congratulations too!
19:13:40 <arseniiv> let us all be happier, smarter, nicer and braver this year
19:13:59 <rain1> you're asking a lot but ill try
19:14:16 <arseniiv> let all the problems be less obstinate and go away easier
19:17:58 <arseniiv> I want to get a constant income at last and somehow have more geographically near acquaintances who are interested or knowledgeable in the same as me, as I believe that’s the only effective way to have a job you like without hassle and luck
19:19:51 <arseniiv> as of now, I know nice and beautiful people but they are all this and that far away. That’s not a problem in itself but that’s a huge dent in a socialization I ended up with and I don’t particularly know yet how to fix it
19:21:20 <arseniiv> (of course I have relatives and their friends but they are all not mathematical or CS-y or techy almost at all. That’s a big problem as they lean on me for math- or computer-related things and I need to be better at them myself!)
19:21:43 <arseniiv> hopefully a condition like this is uncommon amongst people!
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19:38:09 <arseniiv> I think I’m genuniely relieved when I know someone is not having this or that issue I have, that’s a weird kind of empathy if it is
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20:28:02 <esowiki> [[FILO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79781 * Qpliu * (+2389) Created page with "FILO is a stack-based programming language. A FILO program consists of a set of function definitions. ==Syntax== program = definitions ; definitions = definition, { d..."
20:28:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79782&oldid=79765 * Qpliu * (+11) /* F */
20:47:23 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79783&oldid=79769 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) cats /* I/O format */
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00:27:26 <Arcorann> https://nitter.snopyta.org/hikari_no_yume/status/1344961327375261698#m
00:47:25 <zzo38> Probably some programming languages do what is suggested there, yes hardware especially but there are other possibilities too. In some cases they might have a variable length; this can be useful, to use operations that work with numbers in addition to operations on vectors of booleans. Such operations are useful in some programs, whether the length is fixed or variable.
00:49:25 <zzo38> JavaScript has a unlimited integer type, although as far as I know they didn't add operations yet such as popcount and ctz, which would be useful to have. (For example, it can be one way to implement a free list of numbers, using the lowest number which is not yet in use.)
01:10:23 <esowiki> [[Chain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79784&oldid=45899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Cats, Stub
01:17:07 <esowiki> [[FILO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79785&oldid=79781 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) cat /* References */
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01:30:41 <esowiki> [[User:Pelirodri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79787&oldid=79786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) oops Undo revision 79786 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
01:49:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you mean clz instead of ctz? ctz is somewhat useless because you can easily compute it if you have either popcount or clz, but clz is actually more useful than either ctz or popcount in practice. (ctz instruction in cpus still makes sense, but that's a bit different.)
01:50:12 <b_jonas> I don't know about these in javascript though. I know python has clz for its (arbitrary length) integers, and popcount in more recent versions too.
01:54:49 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79788&oldid=74620 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) Rather /* Power */
03:08:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: I know that ctz can be implemented in terms of popcount, so we don't need both, although still it allows it to be done in less operations.
03:10:42 <zzo38> I don't know what Python has, though.
03:12:45 <zzo38> (MMIX has a instruction to compute popcount(x&~y); I don't know what other instruction sets have a instruction to do the same thing in a single instruction.)
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03:58:39 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79789&oldid=78983 * Digital Hunter * (+96)
04:00:33 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79790&oldid=79789 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Using the jump instruction */
05:58:11 <esowiki> [[Hot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79791&oldid=79783 * Tetrapyronia * (+15) Fixed F reduction
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06:31:12 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79792&oldid=79156 * CatIsFluffy * (+4)
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06:59:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: x86 has had clz and ctz instructions since the 386; it gained a popcount instruction only "recently", I think between AVX and AVX2
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07:00:43 <b_jonas> x86 also added some new variants of the clz and ctz instructions "recently", for low-level reasons
07:03:01 <b_jonas> as in, the 386 ctz/clz instructions keep the old value of the output register if the input is 0, which is a false dependency that hurts performance even if your inputs are always nonzero, so they added a prefixed variant that doesn't do this, but afaik don't yet have a cpu model where that variant is actually implemented without the false dependency, it's just for the future
07:03:28 <b_jonas> but take "future" with a grain of sand, I don't keep up with latest tech
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07:21:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but I mean specifically popcount(x&~y) like MMIX has, not just a general popcount instruction.
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07:54:07 <zzo38> One idea of a chess variant can be, you are allowed to capture your own pieces if they are in your opponent's half of the board. (Capturing opponent's pieces is not restricted by what half of the board they are in.)
08:02:50 <Arcorann> Would that really change the game that much though?
08:09:25 <esowiki> [[Hot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79793&oldid=79791 * Tetrapyronia * (+5) skipped a step
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10:06:13 <esowiki> [[Hot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79794&oldid=79793 * Hakerh400 * (+13296) Add an example
10:16:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: popcnt(x&~y) => firstly MMIX has that because it saves an instruction if you compute ctz or similar, while on x86 that's not true; secondly MMIX is a RISC with that instruction designed into it from the start as one of the many integer arithmetic instructions that all take two inputs, while on x86 popcnt was one of the first weirdo instructions whose effect is just arithmetic on general registers
10:16:18 <b_jonas> but is encoded like a vector instruction.
10:17:41 <b_jonas> x86 later added more such instrucions, but popcnt was one of the first two
10:18:12 <b_jonas> admittedly the vector encoding doesn't matter all that much, it can still naturally take two inputs
10:18:24 <b_jonas> (two inputs besides keeping flags)
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10:43:23 <shachaf> int-e: Just got back to Hiding Spot to try 609 again.
10:43:35 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to be able to do this? https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2021-01-02-024253_3840x2160.png
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10:49:22 <shachaf> Except it was an accident. :-(
10:51:54 <shachaf> I mean, not just random keypresses, but it took me by surprise, I wasn't expecting it to happen at that moment.
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12:24:47 <b_jonas> when you glue wood or weld steel, the glue or weld joints are as strong or stronger than the wood and steel itself, so such objects are more likely to break somewhere in the wood or steel than split apart at the glued or welded joints.
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12:26:54 <b_jonas> indeed, most solid wood beams that you buy are made of glued pieces of wood, for more efficient use of material, but this doesn't matter for basically any use. because of this, it's natural to ask why we are even using wood and steel, rather than just making those objects out of glue and weld instead. for wood, this has indeed already happened: solid wood is now rare and expensive, most furniture is
12:27:00 <b_jonas> made of particleboard, which is made mostly of glue, with some sawdust inside for some reason, and the outside usually laminated with plastic.
12:28:37 <b_jonas> I don't know much about steel, so I can't really speculate about that. welding is a difficult skill so it's expensive, but then so is machining steel, so I think you only gain anything if you can weld your steel objects from cheap pre-made shape of parts like sheets or pipes with little change.
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12:33:59 <b_jonas> most other methods of attaching physical objects don't seem to be as strong. while screws and bolts and nails themselves won't break, objects with screw joints will often break at those joints more easily rather then elsewhere in the material. plastic objects often break between parts that were molded separately.
12:35:55 <b_jonas> sewing textile can be as strong as the fabric itself, but only when you do it really well, not in most typical cases in commercially made clothes, so those clothes do often break at sewed joints. and if you do carry this out to extreme and make the entire clothing from good sewing rather than fabric, then I think you get something like crocheting or machine knitting, which is actually used for clothing,
12:37:23 <b_jonas> stiches that doctors put into a human body aren't always reliable either, as I sadly found out on my own example.
12:38:21 <b_jonas> I think rubber can be glued in a way that's as strong as the original rubber, but I'm not sure of the details
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14:23:44 <rain1> https://hackaday.com/2021/01/01/number-bases-stretch-the-mind/
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20:28:42 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79795&oldid=77825 * Palaiologos * (-36238) remove outdated stuff, changelog entries.
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20:44:27 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79796&oldid=79795 * Palaiologos * (+4237) example program
20:50:42 <esowiki> [[Gisa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79797 * Palaiologos * (+1566) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=Gisa |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Palaiologos|Palaiologos]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=register,cell,stack |class=T..."
20:51:03 <esowiki> [[Gisa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79798&oldid=79797 * Palaiologos * (-15) spell it with an uppercase letter
20:51:53 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79799&oldid=76705 * Palaiologos * (+54) asm2ws/Gisa mention
20:52:08 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79800&oldid=79796 * Palaiologos * (+43) mention Gisa and Brainfuck in see-also
20:57:24 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79801&oldid=79800 * Palaiologos * (-53) change the phrasing of the first paragraph
21:00:09 <esowiki> [[User:NicksterSand]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79802 * NicksterSand * (+120) Created page with "Hi, I'm Nick Sandison. I've only made one language and I'm not sure if I'll ever make any more ==Languages== [[C Flat]]"
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09:28:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nailuj29 * New user account
09:30:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79803&oldid=79777 * Nailuj29 * (+31) hi
09:31:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79804&oldid=79803 * Nailuj29 * (+85) I forgetted signature
10:03:38 <esowiki> [[Length]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79805 * Nailuj29 * (+2761) Create
10:11:58 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79806&oldid=79782 * Nailuj29 * (+13) Add my esolang
10:12:28 <esowiki> [[User:Nailuj29]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79807 * Nailuj29 * (+17) Created page with "I made [[Length]]"
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14:18:58 <esowiki> [[Blarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79808&oldid=76268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) Categories, link
14:19:27 <esowiki> [[Blarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79809&oldid=79808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) Cat, stub
14:20:35 <esowiki> [[Ghoti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79810&oldid=74936 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Cat
14:24:01 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79811&oldid=79805 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) Cats, headers
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16:15:52 <rain1> https://projecteuler.net/problem=233 fun one, i think i got a good soln will code it up
16:19:06 <andrew_esolangs> language ideas which were never good enough number 1: brainfuck but + and - are random
16:19:26 <andrew_esolangs> you may get what the operation says or nothing at all, typically at a set probability
16:37:25 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79812&oldid=79811 * Nailuj29 * (+86)
16:40:10 <b4er> Yeah, brainfuck definitely is not tarpit enough. I'd love to have to check each +/- operation whether it succeeded haha
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16:50:48 <andrew_esolangs> number 2: BF except the tape is only left-infinite, and one can cut it or wrap finite tape segments around to form "circles"
16:57:38 <kspalaiologos> opinions so far on the whitespace omnitool? https://github.com/kspalaiologos/asm2ws
16:57:44 <kspalaiologos> i want to post it on the wiki soon-ish with some code examples
17:10:12 <b_jonas> GDQ with the runners streaming from their home, it's so weird
17:13:25 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I don't understand, where's the reference documentation for what source code the asm2bf accepts?
17:13:53 <b_jonas> is there a documentation that lists what operations there are etc?
17:14:48 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, i decided that hosting the documentation on the esolang wiki is pointless, as it's inside the linked PDF anyways. I don't really want to fragment the documentation all that much
17:15:12 <kspalaiologos> i'm not settled on everything so I _may_ put the documentation back, but I've heard people complaining that the article goes on forever, and nobody actually read it
17:15:35 <kspalaiologos> so I decided some examples are enough to show the basic concept of asm2bf, and a link to a very detailed document will just top it off
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17:44:45 <fizzie> Ooh, a GDQ. Hadn't noticed.
17:45:01 <fizzie> Wasn't the last one already home-streaming?
17:47:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pillig * New user account
17:49:32 <andrew_esolangs> actually good language idea: turning tarpit that can also change the order of the "wheel"
17:51:18 <andrew_esolangs> turning tarpit: category of turing tarpit which has two instructions, rotate the wheel and execute the instruction on the wedge of the wheel that the IP is looking at
17:51:30 <andrew_esolangs> the wheel is the cyclic list of actual operations in the language
17:51:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79813&oldid=79804 * Pillig * (+189) /* Introductions */
17:56:24 <esowiki> [[MISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79814&oldid=79335 * Pillig * (+150) replace dead links with wayback links
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18:14:39 <esowiki> [[User:Pillig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79815 * Pillig * (+97) create
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19:12:34 <esowiki> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79816&oldid=67337 * Palaiologos * (+204) v0.3 additions (from http://web.archive.org/web/20150618184706/http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/tutorial.php)
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20:47:17 <esowiki> [[Gene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79817&oldid=79647 * Sinthorion * (+0)
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21:41:40 * int-e wonders how many post-story bonus problems EXAPUNKS has.
21:42:57 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play n-step Steve? https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
21:47:40 <int-e> the year is 20XX, X approximately 20, so we're talking around 202020 here?
21:49:15 <fizzie> int-e: I just finished those.
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21:50:09 <fizzie> The thing I liked about EXAPUNKS over TIS-100 is that the boxes weren't limited to 10 or so lines. (And overall size limit generally wasn't an issue.)
21:51:10 <shachaf> Oh, wow. I was stuck on the first star for a while, even after figuring out the mechanic you're supposed to figure out for it.
21:51:21 <shachaf> Because I thought I had to do something much more complicated.
21:56:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79818&oldid=55523 * CatIsFluffy * (+2002) /* Explicit example of a translated register machine */ new section
22:40:32 <int-e> shachaf: kitties are easy, no star yet
22:41:17 <int-e> fizzie: Will there be more than 4 tasks?
22:42:03 <int-e> I guess one per (other) chat member would make sense. That would be 9.
22:44:14 <fizzie> Since you asked, yes, there's 9, but the last one's actually with Moss, and has a bit of a story content.
22:44:32 <fizzie> The next batch of 4 unlock when you've done the first 4, and the last one when you've done all 8.
22:46:43 <fizzie> One of the penultimate 4 I've got a real overcomplicated and crappy solution which actually didn't fit in the size limit, but it still counts as solved, you just don't get a leaderboard entry without being within the limit.
22:47:15 <int-e> yeah not having to golf the initial solution is really refreshing
22:48:28 <int-e> (That's my main grief about Shenzhen I/O... you can only fit so many parts on the PCB and then you're stuck with 15 or so instructions for the large DSP)
22:49:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I found that part annoying too. Also a bonus: you can put in some comments and use blank lines.
22:50:42 <int-e> Yeah I've done that to visually separate the various tasks spawned off the same EXA
22:51:40 <int-e> Anyway, if there are only 9 bonus tasks I might actually do them. Something to look forward to.
22:51:47 <int-e> If there were 30 I wouldn't want to start.
22:52:15 <fizzie> I was in that last set of fours before I first used the MODE instruction in a solution.
22:53:09 <int-e> I did enjoy the main story though.
22:53:24 <int-e> fizzie: wow, that... impresses me actually
22:53:53 <fizzie> I just thought "can't be bothered to keep track of which mode I'm in, I'll just do without".
22:54:08 <fizzie> I did use the mode *switch* though, to use local mode in a few levels.
22:54:23 <fizzie> I wonder if Chatsubo is a Neuromancer reference.
22:54:27 <fizzie> (It's a bar in the book.)
22:54:45 <int-e> Oh I missed that, but it probably is. :)
22:55:23 <fizzie> "'It’s not like I’m using,' Case heard someone say, as he shouldered his way through the crowd around the door of the Chat. 'It's like my body's developed this massive drug deficiency.' It was a Sprawl voice and a Sprawl joke. The Chatsubo was a bar for professional expatriates; you could drink there for a week and never hear two words in Japanese."
22:55:28 <fizzie> (Is how the book starts.)
22:55:52 <int-e> Yeah, I've read the book(s) :)
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23:00:51 <shachaf> Wow, some of these stars are ridiculous.
23:01:12 <shachaf> Two stars here right next to each other on opposite sides of the corridor.
23:03:08 <fizzie> I did find the writing of the chat logs real realistic though. :)
23:03:29 <fizzie> (Wonder if Zach spends any time in the IRCs.)
23:11:05 <shachaf> Oh, this is much shorter than I thought. Shorter than the last game. I guess it's just the first part.
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00:38:48 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79819&oldid=77549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Resources */ See also
00:40:46 <esowiki> [[Correct Syntax Error]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79820&oldid=53305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Header levels
00:52:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the last one was also streaming from home
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02:08:30 <int-e> shachaf: I've realized that I'm missing a part of the map...
02:09:08 <shachaf> I haven't figured out how to go north or south from the room before the ending.
02:11:04 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png I'm missing the exits to the top and the bottom of the kitty
02:11:27 <shachaf> Yes, that's the area I mean, I think.
02:13:15 <shachaf> I see exits to the north and south of that room but I don't know how to get to them.
02:13:33 <shachaf> The north one has a lock on it, hmm.
02:13:41 <shachaf> Maybe it becomes accessible when you get all the stars?
02:13:44 <int-e> Yeah that says you need 15 stars
02:13:50 <int-e> if you move near the lock
02:14:32 <int-e> I suspect I need to work on my missing star first, that leads to a room with a ton of inert cats that look different from what I've seen before
02:14:55 <shachaf> You got all but one stars?
02:15:12 <shachaf> I don't even see how to get to the lock. It has a 1 flag next to it.
02:15:26 <int-e> I have 11 stars out of 12 I've seen.
02:16:28 <shachaf> I was going to say I'm still at three, but I just realized how to get one.
02:24:09 <shachaf> Anyway isn't the map always incomplete before you go into a room?
02:25:11 <int-e> shachaf: I'm expecting a surprise mechanic
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02:59:28 <shachaf> So what's the deal with "A, B |- X, Y" meaning a conjunction on the left and a disjunction on the right?
03:01:09 <zzo38> Well, it is due to how the rules for logic works, they work well and symmetric when that is the case, I think.
03:05:28 <b4er> Huh, what inference rule is that?
03:05:42 <int-e> shachaf: Since you like SAT... it's a clause, -A \/ -B \/ X \/ Y
03:06:18 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's what made me think about it.
03:06:33 <shachaf> SAT is like a one-sided thing where everything is on the right of the turnstile.
03:06:45 <b4er> Usually when writing X |- Y left would be context (not conjunction) and right is the conclusion
03:07:33 <b4er> A,B |- ... is the same as B,A |- ... but A /\ B is not the same as B /\ A
03:08:53 <int-e> shachaf: and the cut rule is resolution
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03:16:14 <shachaf> b4er_: Right, but the question is how to interpret multiple things in the context vs. in the conclusion.
03:16:49 <b4er_> shachaf, that really depends on the logic
03:17:48 <b4er_> Sometimes you can swap assumptions or drop them, sometimes you can't
03:17:55 <b4er_> I think they're called structural rules
03:19:55 <zzo38> Yes, there are different kind of logic, some which allow such things (and also duplication) and some don't.
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03:23:36 <b4er> Would , not be natural for conjunction on both sides?
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03:24:21 <shachaf> I think most people just don't use , on the right side.
03:24:26 <zzo38> No. The way the rules work to allow freely moving them around, it works better the way it is.
03:24:28 <shachaf> But when they do, it means something like disjunction.
03:25:31 <shachaf> So you have rules that let you move things, like zzo38 said, e.g. from "Γ, A |- Δ" to "Γ |- ¬A, Δ"
03:29:17 <b4er> Idk, that's kind of confusing the only time I've seen , on the rhs was for product types which are like conjunction
03:30:39 <shachaf> Do you have any examples of that?
03:33:21 <b4er> Not at hand no, but I can write you one ^^
03:35:37 <shachaf> I'm skeptical that any logic things use , on the right side of a turnstile to mean conjunction.
03:36:15 <b4er> Not conjunction but product-type but it's the same really
03:41:14 <int-e> shachaf: Oh there's kind of a hidden area in that game, maybe that's the real missing bit
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04:09:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thief * New user account
04:13:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79821&oldid=79813 * Thief * (+94) Added my name!
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04:42:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * CatIsFluffy * moved [[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]] to [[StupidStackLanguage/Examples]]: Consistency
04:42:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * CatIsFluffy * moved [[Al Dente examples]] to [[Al Dente/Examples]]: Consistency
05:06:06 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79826 * Thief * (+4349) Create Boner++ page
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05:10:36 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79827&oldid=79826 * Thief * (+3) change "compiler" to "interpreter"
05:41:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79828&oldid=79640 * Ais523 * (-41) /* See also */ unpipe interwiki links; I think people here like to know that the link's going to an external site
06:10:52 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, I'm done. 15 stars collected...
06:12:16 <shachaf> The room with the two cats and the 5-flag and 2-flag seems pretty tricky.
06:14:10 <int-e> final map (spoiler warning): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png
06:14:32 <int-e> shachaf: It's easy to cross though :)
06:16:05 <shachaf> Oh no, there's a room south of the star in the icy area?
06:16:24 <shachaf> I was wondering about that but it was so annoying just to get the star.
06:17:00 <shachaf> Now that I try it again getting the star seems easy.
06:17:17 <shachaf> I think I did something unnecessarily complicated before.
06:17:52 <Lykaina> the year is old enough to drink!
06:20:04 <shachaf> I think I was trying to get the 5-flag over there. Which is maybe what I need to do.
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13:34:14 <b_jonas> I have completed the free demo of the shapez.io game. it fittingly ends with building a rocket, which is probably the hardest shape required up to that point, depending on how you count shapes that are made easier but you can reuse a shape that was already required as one of its components.
13:34:38 <b_jonas> I will have to consider buying the non-demo version of the game.
13:36:35 <b_jonas> int-e, shachaf: wait what game is this you're playing? I assumed at first it was still the one with chairs and trees and rocks, but now it seems like it's another puzzle platformer
13:38:34 <b_jonas> s/puzzle platformer/block-pushing puzzle/
13:53:34 <fizzie> b_jonas: 21:42 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play n-step Steve? https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
13:59:12 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79829&oldid=79827 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+129) Cats, s.t.
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15:37:54 <int-e> fizzie, b_jonas: Yes, fizzie got it right.
15:40:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cyborg * New user account
15:42:21 <int-e> I've played 5 Step Steve too... but coming from N Step Steve takes out almost all the surprises. The game logic is pretty much the same except that all flags have a 5 on them.
15:47:18 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/ is extremely useful for answering this type of questions
15:56:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79830&oldid=79821 * Cyborg * (+223)
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17:07:11 <b_jonas> int-e: #esoteric sometimes plays puzzle games
17:08:34 <b_jonas> it makes sense, some of the esolangs inspire great puzzles too, like what the computational power of some esolang is, possibly with some restrictions
17:09:04 <b_jonas> just look at those results about brainfuck with a limited constant number of bracket pairs in the program
17:09:32 <b_jonas> heck did I just give brainfuck as an example for something?
17:12:37 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class
17:40:33 <b_jonas> this will take months to get used to
17:41:14 <b_jonas> I'm getting EIO... hopefully only a contact error at the USB conenction
17:42:14 <b_jonas> yep, that's what it was, whew
17:42:47 <b_jonas> I was reading from an SD card reader
17:43:23 <b_jonas> at least tar is kind enough to specifically say "Read error" so I didn't get scared that it was an EIO on my hard disk that I'm writing to
17:43:33 <b_jonas> not that you'd get an immediate EIO for that
17:46:36 <fizzie> Huh, Sonic 1 on Android.
17:48:38 <myname> platformer adaptions don't work well on android imho. and sonic isn't even a good one to begin with
17:49:28 <fizzie> (Watching AGDQ, if it wasn't clear.)
17:50:03 <fizzie> I have to imagine it's being played on a controller.
17:50:26 <fizzie> But looks like they've imported in the shields (at least bubble and lightning) from 3.
17:51:13 <myname> i don't get why it became so popular
18:00:47 <b_jonas> myname: writing text messages and browsing the web also got popular on tiny touchscreens. how are platformers different?
18:01:02 <b_jonas> android or apple phone is irrelevant here
18:01:50 <myname> writing text messages and browsing aren't inherently tightly timed
18:02:05 <myname> and you usually press where you look at those
18:02:12 <b_jonas> myname: sure, but the input devices are about as bad as for a platformer
18:02:32 <myname> for platformers, you have to do presses somewhere you don't look in a precise time window
18:02:38 <andrew_esolangs> you can always assume that the rest of the populace are idiot
18:02:39 <myname> and this also removes screen estate
18:03:07 <b_jonas> "press where you look at those" -- I sure don't. I buy non-smart phones that have a non-flat keyboard so that I can type on without looking continuously.
18:03:17 <myname> b_jonas: how so? typing? maybe. browsing? i don't think so. whether i click or i touch doesn't make a big difference
18:03:30 <b_jonas> myname: not browsing, just typing text messages or short text notes to myself
18:03:54 <b_jonas> for browsing that's probably less relevant, yes
18:04:42 <myname> yeah, keyboards are a weird one for that. there are experimental inputs that don't depend on watching as much
18:04:56 <myname> like 8pen/8vim for example
18:05:14 <andrew_esolangs> i'm too used to smartphones to have a justified opinion so i'm going
18:06:29 <myname> i used android as my daily driver quite some time
18:06:56 <myname> multitasking is necessary
18:08:36 <andrew_esolangs> my dailies are about as unlikely as possible for an irc like this
18:09:00 <myname> windows is more popular here than one might think
18:09:16 <myname> not sure about android/ios preferences, though
18:10:09 <kmc> i've been an android user for about 10 years
18:10:33 <myname> i got pretty late to the party. my first android device was the nexus 3
18:10:51 <kmc> mine was the HTC Evo 4G
18:11:08 <myname> currently i have a galaxy fold 2 <3
18:11:22 <kmc> I had a few pre-Android/iOS smartphones that were varying degrees of terrible
18:11:29 <fizzie> My first Android device was the (first, 2012) Nexus 7 tablet, and I think it might still remain the only Android device I've bought with my own money.
18:11:40 <kmc> also the Nokia N800 which was pretty nice, but not actually a phone (I think they made one phone on that platform later)
18:11:51 <fizzie> I've got the N900 on my desk right now.
18:12:05 <kmc> on desktop I have mainly been a Linux user but I switched to Win10 in 2017, kind of on a whim, and switched back late last year when that machine broke
18:12:05 <fizzie> (Because I'm meant to wipe any personal stuff out of it while it still works, but haven't gotten around to.)
18:12:22 <kmc> (I was using WSL heavily so it wasn't that much of an adjustment)
18:13:56 <b_jonas> (yes, I'm heavilyi biased against smartphone because of the state of android software)
18:13:56 <myname> i had several moto gs before
18:14:01 <fizzie> I can see a total of 9 smartphones from where I sit, which is getting pretty ridiculous.
18:14:01 <kmc> my current phone is a Pixel 3a
18:14:08 <kmc> before that I had a Moto G5+, which I really liked
18:14:11 <myname> good price for what they deliver
18:14:14 <kmc> the Pixel 3a is also good
18:14:47 <myname> i am still a bit confused about phones without dual sim
18:14:49 <andrew_esolangs> i use an hp laptop with win10 on it by the way, that's where i'm typing in this irc from
18:14:52 <kmc> yeah, my needs from a phone are pretty modest, so even a "budget" brand like Moto is more than enough phone for me, as long as the build quality is good (which it is)
18:15:26 <kmc> i mean... that "budget" phone has 8 cores and can capture 4k video at 30 fps
18:15:29 <kmc> it's a little ridiculous
18:15:32 <andrew_esolangs> if anyone cares to listen i've popped in and out of this irc a few times (if you've ever seen another "andrew" user here that's probs me)
18:16:07 <andrew_esolangs> i have little in the way of complaints for my moto, i hold it dear
18:16:36 <andrew_esolangs> i used ot have a lenovo tablet then the charger port went poof
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18:19:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: 9 smartphones from where you sit => I'm suddenly reminded of an on-site mall shop for one of the mobile phone providers here, where the vendors only have touchscreen tablets in front of them, without a keyboard, and typing my home address and every other alphanumeric data of customers on those touchscreen. that's what I saw when I went there to migrate away from them.
18:20:01 <myname> what i did to find moto g was to go on a site, filter for dualsim and sd, order by price, take the first non-chinese brand
18:20:44 <b_jonas> migrating a phone number away from them normally shouldn't require their help, by design, but that assumes that they don't pretend to not know my home address from when they were required to ask me several times before
18:22:22 <fizzie> Only 4 of those 9 have SIM cards. And it probably would only be 2/9, if it wasn't for how international SMS routing seems to be just a mess.
18:22:51 <fizzie> (Well, it'd probably be 2/x where x<9, because that's one of the reasons there's so many phones.)
18:23:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: international SMS routing? what?
18:23:21 <b_jonas> also how many of them have more than one SIM card?
18:23:47 <fizzie> And you can't assume SMS will work between an arbitrary pair of mobile operators, if those operators are in different countries.
18:24:14 <fizzie> In particular, my bank in Finland is unable to send the required confirmation text messages to my "primary" UK operator.
18:24:29 <b_jonas> if it's definitely mobile operators that is, I don't assume it will work for all landline phone operators
18:24:44 <fizzie> It works mostly, but there's arbitrary pairs of operators where it just doesn't work.
18:25:12 <fizzie> I think it's weird, too, but it seems to be true, and nobody takes responsibility for it.
18:25:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I also used to assume that when an on-site vendor with a POS terminal accepts Mastercard credit cards, then they accept Mastercard credit cards regardless the bank backing the account.
18:25:57 <b_jonas> but the world is more complicated than this
18:26:22 <fizzie> Fortunately most of the big operators in the SMS "two-factor" business seem to have figured out how to deliver messages to anywhere (certainly the likes of Google/Apple/Steam etc. do), but I imagine banks have a relatively small % of international customers.
18:28:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: I am the customer of a large bank, and they have customer service phone numbers at all three big mobile phone operators, which helps customers who can call only one of them for free, but this is exceptional, most taxis and such only have multiple numbers with one provider
18:29:54 <myname> why don't they make a number free for all numbers?
18:30:04 <kmc> my bank in the US is unable to reliably send 2FA texts to my US number
18:30:08 <kmc> but that's just cause they're incompetent
18:30:46 <kmc> any dogshit startup can do it
18:30:52 <kmc> any twilio customer can do it (including me)
18:30:53 <b_jonas> this bank also has walk-in customer offices and ATMs like everywhere, so this sort of thing is right in their profile; other banks instead have few walk-in offices or ATMs and instead make it cheap to use other ATMs
18:30:59 <kmc> but this hueg bank can't
18:31:08 <myname> i went to fintechs semi-voluntairily and i don't look back
18:31:16 <b_jonas> myname: because the bank would have to pay for the calls to free phone numbers
18:31:26 <kmc> maybe cause they want to do it in some "secure" way but at the end of the day it's still a plain old SMS when I (eventually, sometimes) receive it
18:31:51 <myname> b_jonas: and that's more expensive than 3 different numbers and the overhead for that?
18:31:52 <andrew_esolangs> banks are full of old people in upper management, probs why
18:32:06 <b_jonas> myname: they do have an internet form to call you back, in which case they pay for the call, but that incentivizes customers to be on call with them at off-times when their customer support isn't overloaded
18:33:15 <b_jonas> myname: do you know how much time customers can spend on the menu maze and 30 minutes of waiting with hold music until an operator is available?
18:33:33 <b_jonas> I don't know, but probably either of these is cheap compared to having all those walk-in offices
18:35:25 <b_jonas> or maybe customers just waste their phone customer support time slightly less if you have to either pay for it or do something nontrivial like ask for a callback on the website
18:36:23 <b_jonas> it's like when you pay a very small amount of money to buy a tabloid paper magazine: it's not that that covers their costs, it's the ads that give them income, but if they gave the papers avay for any cheaper, people would use them as toilet paper and package padding material without even glancing at those ads
18:36:55 <b_jonas> and yes, there are lots of free magazines too for that, but exactly for that reason they probably profit less from the ads
18:37:47 <b_jonas> I use these free papers to peel tomatoes on, or occasionally other similar stuff. I throw away the ones with glossy paper immediately though, because they're less suitable for that.
18:38:48 <b_jonas> myname: perhaps all the banks other than the two that try to have walk-in offices everywhere do have free phone numbers
18:39:28 <fizzie> I've seen ads in the Tube (pre-Covid) about these new "virtual" banks that don't do offices.
18:40:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, those exist too
18:41:55 <myname> i am tempted to open an account at tomorrow just because they have a wooden visa
18:42:15 <b_jonas> andrew_esolangs: we have logs going back to 18 years (2002-12), and the channel is said to be somewhat older, but I'm not sure, I wasn't there
18:42:56 <andrew_esolangs> i got involved with esolanging a few years ago although i've never made anything of use
18:43:00 <int-e> myname: we're so eco friendly, we have to cut down trees for our credit cards to make up for it?
18:43:51 <myname> int-e: they are eco friendly, though. the paid account uses your fees for co2 compensation
18:44:05 <b_jonas> myname: I already have a problem where the plastic bank card gets accidentally almost perforated by continuous misuse and bending in my pocket, a wooden card would be worse. (admittedly that's a debit card, not an embossed credit card)
18:44:22 <fizzie> I think I looked up an exact-enough birthday a while back, to figure out when we should celebrate. It was in December 2002 anyway.
18:44:34 <myname> b_jonas: sounds like a bad wallet
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18:45:00 <fizzie> (You can derive a reasonably good upper and lower bound from the mailing list archives.)
18:45:01 <b_jonas> myname: it's happened even with the previous wallet. it's not the wallet's fault, anything would suffer in the front packet of my jeans
18:45:11 <b_jonas> the jeans wants to go around my leg
18:45:35 <int-e> b_jonas: well you could get a stiff wallet (surely that's a thing) but it would be uncomfortable
18:45:56 <myname> b_jonas: i have some form of these "metal plates with a rubber" wallets, i am pretty sure stuff in there will not bend
18:46:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't the exact date in the MODE reply after the logbot joins, in the raw log from before freenode replaced their software?
18:46:25 <myname> int-e: not at all, those are pretty slim in comparison
18:47:02 <b_jonas> myname: replacement cards are cheap enough, I'm not going to pay to not bend the card. they should just be as resilient as cash.
18:47:24 <b_jonas> myname: besides, it takes almost as much time as the card would already expire when this happens
18:47:28 <b_jonas> it's not an immediate effect
18:47:35 <b_jonas> so often I don't even have to replace it
18:47:38 <myname> fine by me. just saying i never had this problem ever
18:48:13 <myname> also, there are metal credit cards
18:48:59 <b_jonas> myname: again, this is a debit card. I don't know if it happens with credit cards.
18:49:25 <myname> are those different cards?
18:49:50 <fizzie> It might have been, but I don't think we have actual raw logs from that far in the past.
18:50:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, maybe we don't have *raw* logs old enough
18:50:24 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2003-01-18-raw.txt is the oldest codu file, and it doesn't have anything useful in it.
18:50:34 <myname> i only have debit cards and one of those has those annoying letters
18:51:04 <b_jonas> myname: yes, credit cards are embossed. it's not quite a full match, I think there are non-embossed credit cards or embossed debit cards or something. the point is, my physical debit card and physical debit card are clearly physically different. the credit card is thinner if you don't count the embossing.
18:51:41 <fizzie> I think I remember someone saying their recently renewed credit card was non-embossed.
18:51:48 <fizzie> So maybe they're giving up on that finally.
18:51:57 <rain1> http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2020
18:53:00 <myname> i don't think embossed credit cards had any use outside of the use a few decades ago
18:53:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: strange, because irc servers send that after the NAMES reply when you join a channel
18:53:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: would make sense. if only they also made ones with no magnetic strip.
18:54:07 <b_jonas> I've only ever seen the embossing used on airplanes
18:54:17 <b_jonas> where they do that because don't have internet connectivity
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18:55:56 <myname> that kinda makes sense, the card i have with embossing is more travel-focussed than the one without
18:57:55 <b_jonas> and I don't think that happens anymore, because they just have internet on those airplanes. not necessarily broadband internet that they sell to customers or anything, just enough internet for a card transaction, which isn't much.
18:58:15 <b_jonas> or phone connectivity or whatever
19:04:35 <kmc> can't you do a magstripe transaction offline too
19:04:40 <kmc> i mean it has the same information the embosser gives you
19:05:00 <kmc> maybe you can't do an EMV transaction offline
19:05:07 <kmc> but it will be forever before they get rid of the magstripes
19:05:18 <b_jonas> I think it gives somewhat more than the
19:05:20 <kmc> USA still hasn't implemented EMV properly
19:05:35 <b_jonas> and yes, you could probably do a magstripe transaction, so I dunno
19:05:40 <kmc> well ok, but it should still be sufficient for an offline (processed when the plane lands) transaction
19:05:51 <kmc> my recollection of buying stuff on a plane is that they used a handheld terminal
19:06:04 <kmc> not sure whether it was EMV or magstripe
19:06:18 <b_jonas> I don't know how it works really
19:06:31 <kmc> the last (and maybe only?) time I did an embosser transaction was buying some meat from a sketchy guy in a van in 2013
19:06:34 <kmc> long story
19:06:49 <b_jonas> was the meat at least good?
19:06:49 <fizzie> I've only used the embossing thing on a boat.
19:06:52 <kmc> it was okay
19:07:17 <kmc> my credit union debit card (issued last year or maybe 2019) is not embossed
19:07:27 <kmc> but my megabank debit card (issued last year) is
19:07:35 <kmc> and i don't have any credit cards anymore
19:08:05 <kmc> both have EMV, the megabank also has NFC, before that it had EMV but not NFC, before that it had NFC but not EMV
19:08:13 <kmc> it's kind of embarrassing how much of a mess all this is
19:08:28 <fizzie> Chicago's public transit Ventra card is also a MasterCard, which I found weird.
19:08:35 <kmc> in the US there's still like a 1 in 4 chance when you encounter an EMV terminal that the EMV is mysteriously broken and you have to use magstripe
19:08:43 <myname> good to know, i disabled magstripe on my card
19:09:03 <fizzie> I got one of those on a trip because the deposit ($5?) was less than what you saved by using the card, but they've been a bit spammy afterwards.
19:09:13 <b_jonas> kmc: how is it a mess? it's just progress of technology, from embossed to magnetic to chip to proxy
19:09:24 <b_jonas> I mean the details are a mess, yes
19:09:28 <b_jonas> but the general idea isn't
19:09:35 <fizzie> It finally expires (expired?) now, and they said they'd send a replacement, but they've got a really weird address for me, because the forms were incredibly US-centric.
19:09:39 <kmc> also the protocol for paying for a sit-down meal at a restaurant in the USA is still ridiculous
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19:09:54 <kmc> and unchanged from the very start of credit cards
19:10:24 <fizzie> You give your card to them, they go away with it, then they come back with a receipt, which you then scribble a tip on and leave?
19:10:34 <kmc> you give your card to the waiter, they take it in back and do god knows what with it, bring you the card and a receipt, you write the amount you want to pay (including tip) on the receipt and then leave, and trust that they key it in correctly
19:10:46 <fizzie> Yeah, I've always found that real weird.
19:10:55 <kmc> instead of, say, bringing you a portable EMV terminal to the table
19:10:59 <b_jonas> I thought they stopped by now
19:11:01 <kmc> which I think is how it works in civilized countries
19:11:12 <fizzie> They were still doing that on my last US visit.
19:11:12 <b_jonas> and that banks also don't allow that
19:11:36 <kmc> it will probably be decades more before that changes
19:11:46 <kmc> at this point it's an ingrained part of American culture
19:11:53 <kmc> and it would confuse so many people to do it "right"
19:12:36 <kmc> (American tipping laws and culture are also dumb, but that's another matter)
19:12:57 <fizzie> It doesn't happen here either, but bill-splitting works differently here. The waiter comes around with the machine, and in turn everyone gives the waiter a card and says "take £X from here", except the last one pays whatever remains.
19:13:11 <b_jonas> I did get confused by protocol at least once, because in Sweden (and I think the UK and Geramny etc) they use portable terminals where you type in how much tip you want to pay, whereas here they don't have that, instead if you want to pay tip via card reader you tell the waiter or taxi driver how much you want to pay before they hand you the terminal, and they just enter the increased amount to the card
19:13:11 <fizzie> I don't actually remember how it usually goes in Finland, but I don't think it's worked like that.
19:13:29 <fizzie> Oh, right, I do remember: you just tell the waiter up front how you like to pay, and they bring you separate bills.
19:14:00 <kmc> yeah here you can sometimes ask them to split the bill
19:14:08 <kmc> but different restaurants may have policies on when they will or won't do this
19:14:13 <kmc> because it's kind of a pain for them
19:14:16 <b_jonas> kmc: couldn't they fix that without incompatbility by like, if you give the waiter the card, they still take it and just put it into the slot of the terminal in front of you and then hand it back after they get the confirmation?
19:14:25 <kmc> separately you can also pay one bill with multiple cards or a combination of cards and cash
19:14:32 <kmc> i think that is pretty universally accepted, but i rarely do it
19:14:46 <kmc> it's easier to have one person card the whole meal and everyone else gives that person cash or venmo or something
19:15:09 <kmc> at my university the rule was that the youngest non-math-major had to calculate how much everyone owes after a meal
19:15:19 <kmc> (because math majors can't do arithmetic)
19:15:26 <kmc> and i was pretty much always youngest
19:15:31 <kmc> but I did claim to be a math major for one term
19:20:37 <kmc> this conversation reminded me of an esoteric forgotten-technology thing
19:21:11 <kmc> which is that once upon a time, Bloom filters computed from numbers of stolen credit cards were transmitted alongside FM radio broadcasts
19:21:18 <kmc> https://i.imgur.com/gicQK2W.png https://i.imgur.com/VvBK3fz.jpg
19:21:42 <kmc> perhaps only as a trial in one city... i haven't found much information besides this one article in a trade publication from the 90s
19:23:07 <fizzie> Here's another unrelated forgotten-tech thing: at least in Finland, magazines used to print bar codes in the TV program listings, that could be used to set up a VCR to record that program, by reading the bar code using a scanner in the corner of the VCR's remote.
19:23:14 <kmc> of course at one time merchants were issued physical books of canceled card numbers, but that doesn't scale at all
19:23:27 <fizzie> (I think they might have had at least two incompatible systems for those.)
19:23:30 <kmc> so they moved to electronic networks for verifying the cards
19:24:28 <kmc> but those were kind of expensive so the FM thing was meant to reduce load on them, by caching a data structure (article doesn't say, but probably a bloom filter) with each merchant so that many cards could be accepted offline and only some would need to be checked in realtime
19:25:11 <kmc> the whole notion of credit cards is still a weird one to me
19:25:26 <kmc> the idea that you are borrowing money just by making purchases
19:25:42 <kmc> obviously arises from the limitations of pre-electronic commerce
19:26:13 <kmc> but sort of became a raison d'etre of the cards themselves
19:26:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: jesus, so that's what they did about people stereotypically being unable to program vcrs? crazy, I haven't heard of that
19:27:16 <kmc> and somehow my willingness to "borrow" $5 to buy a sandwich when I already have $5 and will immediately pay it back is used to assess my trustworthiness to borrow $1,500,000 to buy a house
19:27:42 <kmc> and also my trustworthiness to rent an apartment or get a job or do other things that have nothing to do with borrowing money
19:27:50 <b_jonas> kmc: that's another of those weird things the US does, yes
19:28:01 <kmc> and really credit score is not about trustworthiness at all; it's about how much money banks can expect to make from lending to you
19:28:13 <kmc> so the "perfect" customer who only borrows money when she really needs to and pays it back as soon as possible gets a crappy score
19:28:15 <b_jonas> kmc: but don't worry, we Europeans do other weird things instead
19:28:22 <kmc> because it's more profitable to people who will end up oweing more interest
19:28:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code for the manually typed-in version, but I'm pretty sure there was also a barcode form.
19:28:45 <kmc> but somehow "profitability as a customer for consumer debt" has become our general purpose score of whether you are a good and trustworthy person
19:28:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think I've seen the printed version
19:28:52 <kmc> it says something dark about our society
19:29:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: printed in newspapers that is, I haven't used a VCR that does it
19:29:12 <kmc> fizzie: that VCR thing is cool
19:29:22 <fizzie> We didn't have a fancy enough VCR to have that, but either a friend or a relative did, and I always found it real impressive somehow.
19:29:28 <fizzie> Even though it really doesn't do much.
19:29:34 <b_jonas> I've only ever programmed a VCR the obvious way, by entering the day of week and hour and minute of start time and hour and minute of end time
19:29:44 <kmc> this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code
19:30:08 <fizzie> That's what I found as well, and ShowView rings a bell, but it doesn't mention bar codes.
19:30:23 <fizzie> Also found https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-12-11-8704020115-story.html but that's got a static list of bar codes.
19:30:23 <kmc> hm, I do vaguely recall seeing these "PlusCodes" in TV Guide
19:30:29 <kmc> not sure that we ever had a VCR which knew about them
19:30:35 <int-e> Hmm I don't recall barcodes.
19:30:43 <kmc> but I don't remember seeing barcodes
19:31:06 <b_jonas> kmc: fizzie already linked to that
19:31:36 <fizzie> Maybe I dreamed that bit. But I still have a vivid recollection of a scanner in the corner of a remote, hmm.
19:31:45 <fizzie> Got reminded of this whole deal after seeing a video on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat
19:31:46 <kmc> ah, I missed it while I was ranting about the credit-industrial complex
19:33:38 <fizzie> Credit scores are a thing in the UK as well, incidentally.
19:33:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: nah, the barcode scanner in remote totally sounds like something that was probably real depsite that it sounds stupid to us
19:33:58 <fizzie> And apparently what you do with your credit cards affects your chances of getting a mortgage approved here.
19:34:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, in the sense that if you borrow money from your credit cards then don't pay it back, then they don't give you other types of loans. that's a thing here, it's sensible. it's just not all the american system has.
19:37:15 <fizzie> I've gotten the implication it goes one step further here, and isn't just that you need to avoid "bad" things, you need to actively try to do enough "good" things that end up in the credit agency databases.
19:37:24 <fizzie> (In Finland it's more how you describe.)
19:37:59 <kmc> oh the other weird thing is that the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you the "chargeback and fraud protection" part
19:38:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: well it's not only about not paying back, it's also to stop you from borrowing acceptible amounts of money from each of multiple different agents such that together you borrow too much money
19:38:02 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, same in the US
19:38:12 <kmc> my credit score is mediocre because I haven't owned or used a credit card in years
19:38:16 <kmc> because I don't like to play their stupid games
19:38:24 <fizzie> (Not that I know the details, other than having read a few "tips how to manage your credit score" articles a while back.)
19:38:30 <kmc> my wife's score is much better because she has one open card that she uses a few times a year to keep it active
19:38:33 <kmc> it's very stupid
19:38:48 <kmc> none of this should at all predict our ability to service a large loan like a home mortgage
19:39:25 <fizzie> I'd kind of like to know what my score is, but it seems like it would take a little bit of a hassle to find out.
19:39:47 <b_jonas> kmc: and on the other hand, the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you that service providers often take more money than you owe them as a precaution and then return the money you didn't use up much later
19:39:50 <kmc> (which is a prediction the banks are also bad at, or indeed deliberaly give loans to people who can't pay, and then get bailed out by the government when this gets them into trouble)
19:40:03 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah that can happen too
19:40:53 <j4cbo> yeah, if you don't use a credit card "enough" there's a penalty to your credit score
19:41:13 <kmc> oh and the credit agencies keep getting hacked and leaking everyone's personal info
19:41:18 <kmc> which is another reason i hate this stupid system
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22:52:24 <nakilon> that US credit score system sounds like a pyramid
22:52:58 <andrew_esolangs> it's wonderful what never reading the logs can do to make finding out of context quotes easier
22:53:01 <nakilon> where you are shit if you aren't yet on a higher level than 1 or 2 in a cash flow
22:54:53 <nakilon> there is a huge gap between the technologies that banks are using right now and the datamining science is at now
22:56:58 <nakilon> now with network and calculation technologies being improved every year will make banks able to throw out the 1950 legacy code and hardware and catch up with new stuff
22:57:37 <nakilon> and the financial control will change dramatically in the near future
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08:59:43 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79831&oldid=78445 * Quintopia * (+10) missing last step
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09:43:06 <oren> ‖ and ǁ mean different things in the International Phonetic Alphabet
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09:50:01 <b_jonas> oren: yes, but there were saner older symbols based on letters (like c and t with funny tails) that you can use instead of the silly modern click symbols (that look like ! | || ¡ or something silly like that)
09:51:19 <shachaf> י and ו and ן mean different things in Hebrew.
09:52:15 <b_jonas> shachaf: and i j l ' mean different things in various latin script languages
09:52:48 <shachaf> The whole I/l thing is actually a problem.
09:53:58 <b_jonas> it wouldn't be if people didn't insist on using bad fonts
09:54:05 <b_jonas> it's not a problem for the fonts that I use
09:54:44 <b_jonas> admittedly my handwriting has all sorts of confusable letters or sequences of letters if I'm not careful, but even then it's never I vs l
09:54:48 <shachaf> Sometimes you can't pick your fonts.
09:56:07 <b_jonas> sometimes I can't. usually I can. I set my browser to use only my fonts rather than what the website asks for. sure, it won't help in images containing text.
09:57:08 <b_jonas> admittedly I don't go as far as forcing the urlbar and tab titles to use a better font
09:57:50 <shachaf> Anyway if font designers are tempted to make them similar, that's bad enough.
09:57:51 <b_jonas> but note that the urlbar at least lowercases the domain name part of urls for exactly this problem
09:58:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: font designers do a lot of other stupid things
09:58:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do the same, although I want to allow SVG and PDF to specify fonts, but to disallow HTML to specify fonts (only allowing specifying language and fixed/variable pitch), but I don't know how to make it to do that.
09:58:20 <shachaf> Should I switch from AT&T syntax to Intel syntax for x86 assembly.
09:59:03 <b_jonas> like add fi ligatures because it makes their font look more prestigious, I hate that
09:59:19 <zzo38> I managed to get it to use the Fixed font for the URL, and for the status bar, and tab titles, but it doesn't do that elsewhere.
10:00:22 <zzo38> 2600 uses ligatures even in fix pitch text, and it shouldn't do that. I wrote to them to complain, but they haven't fixed it yet, even though they admitted that they shouldn't use ligatures in fix pitch text. I think they are using misconfigured software, probably.
10:00:49 <shachaf> So what's the deal with typefaces being uncopyrightable in the US?
10:01:39 <shachaf> Can you take some fancy expensive font and extract a usable non-copyrightable version of it and give it away?
10:03:39 <zzo38> http://pineight.com/mw/index.php?title=User:Tepples/font_laundering
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11:54:42 <esowiki> [[Mbius]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79832&oldid=75242 * Quintopia * (+343) comp class
12:05:30 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79833&oldid=79754 * Quintopia * (+15) /* Interpreters written in Python */
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13:06:57 <esowiki> [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79834&oldid=53527 * Quintopia * (-3) /* Symmetry */ oops
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16:14:07 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79836&oldid=79744 * Tetrapyronia * (+26)
16:14:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79837&oldid=79743 * Tetrapyronia * (+117) Added Triski
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16:36:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79838&oldid=79830 * Bo Tie * (+192)
16:43:06 <esowiki> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79839&oldid=58554 * Bo Tie * (+191) Added an example (Fibonacci sequence).
16:44:01 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79840&oldid=75811 * Pipythonmc * (+20) Fix formatting (some lines not breaking properly)
16:50:15 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79841&oldid=79840 * Pipythonmc * (+0) Fix a small typo
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17:27:12 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79842&oldid=79835 * Tetrapyronia * (+157)
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17:38:57 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79843&oldid=79842 * Tetrapyronia * (+440) Added Hello, world! program
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18:06:58 <int-e> fizzie: Argh, I just realized that MODI and DIVI are inconsistent when negative numbers are involved :-/
18:07:12 <int-e> Avoidable, but what a nuisance...
18:07:51 <fizzie> What, there's a MODI instruction?!
18:08:43 <fizzie> ...I was so sure I checked for that...
18:09:27 <int-e> It's even documented.
18:10:14 <int-e> (Though maybe not the way you'd expect. The "ADDI" documentation lists the other arithmetic operations as a note.)
18:10:42 <fizzie> Yeah, I know that note.
18:10:54 <fizzie> I don't know how I managed to miss MODI there.
18:11:26 <fizzie> I've got at least one COPY X, T; DIVI X, 2, X; SUBI T, X, T; SUBI T, X, T sequence just to get a LSB.
18:12:05 <fizzie> (Well, I do need the X/2 as well. But still.)
18:12:38 <int-e> anyway, MODI produces nonnegative numbers, DIVI truncates towards zero.
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18:13:52 <b_jonas> wtf are you guys playing a new puzzle game every day?
18:14:36 <myname> what's wrong with that
18:14:37 <fizzie> I didn't play that other game.
18:15:04 <fizzie> (And I think I'm pretty much done with EXAPUNKS, unless I get the urge to go back and tweak.)
18:15:33 <int-e> myname: it violates a = (a/b)*b + (a%b)
18:16:00 <fizzie> Oh well. At least my most common use for MODI probably would've been to do MODI X, 10, T, and it's not like SWIZ X, 1, T is any longer.
18:16:37 <myname> i mean, what's wrong with new good games every day
18:17:52 <int-e> Oh. Sorry, yeah I don't know what's wrong with that either.
18:18:16 <int-e> fungot: what's wrong with us?
18:18:16 <fungot> int-e: that's tablespoons though, there's nothing quite like going into the shitter. do symbols need to be
18:18:25 <fizzie> fungot: Don't be crass.
18:18:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:18:48 * int-e wonders where it learned the last word :)
18:19:10 <int-e> (of the first sentence)
18:19:11 <myname> wait, fungot has a style for fungot?
18:19:11 <fungot> myname: nonlinear fnord. see, that's my master's subject... i'm writing a scheme to c part
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18:19:37 <fizzie> fungot: What sort of weird ass-university did you find to accept a master's thesis on yourself?
18:19:37 <fungot> fizzie: my turn!!! eheheheheeheheheh the fnord. so many of those lists would you fnord.
18:19:58 <myname> does it like read its own logs?
18:20:10 <fizzie> It's not automated or anything fancy like that.
18:20:22 <fizzie> I just took all it had said here over some period of time, and fed that as input.
18:21:11 <fizzie> Theoretically you could directly interpolate the models to get (asymptotically) the same result, like `words does.
18:21:14 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
18:21:20 <fizzie> fungot: What *have* you said?
18:21:21 <fungot> fizzie: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen. i see no sense
18:21:34 <fizzie> At least the last sentence is fitting.
18:21:48 <int-e> very introspective
18:21:48 <kmc> I'm getting a FPGA board soon. I might do some eso- and/or retro-computing with it
18:22:16 <myname> will messages fungot writes with fungot style be part of future fungot style input to make it even more fungot?
18:22:16 <fungot> myname: " and this is a new game. there is no
18:22:39 <fizzie> Only if I go back and re-train that style.
18:23:30 <fizzie> Though I guess in theory it should just be a no-op. It would affect the interpolation weights a little though.
18:23:57 <kmc> I wonder which esolangs would be fun/good to implement in HDL.
18:24:15 <kmc> I actually wrote a Verilog (or was it VHDL?) Brainfuck forever ago, just as a hello world to learn the language
18:24:19 <kmc> but I never ran it on real hardware
18:25:27 <fizzie> I looked a little bit at creating a Befunge coprocessor for MIPS, as part of an optional extra of a CPU design course exercise thing ("add a coprocessor"), but never got around to even doing the main thing.
18:25:54 <fizzie> It would've had a 256x256-byte playfield though.
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18:35:56 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79844&oldid=69676 * MilkyWay90 * (+6) Updated GitHub to my new account
18:38:21 <kmc> sometimes I think I should play Shenzhen I/O but then I decide I should play KiCad instead
18:39:09 <kmc> I actually have not had many PCBs made but I really enjoy designing them anyway
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18:42:34 <kmc> PCB layout is a fun puzzle game
18:42:48 <kmc> especially if you put an unreasonable amount of effort towards making everything look nice and minimizing the number of vias
18:43:12 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79845&oldid=79843 * Tetrapyronia * (-6) Fixed Truth-machine
18:43:53 <fizzie> I should play OpenSCAD again some day. It was a lot of fun to do a practical shape with it, though not particularly puzzle-like.
18:44:24 <kmc> I'm getting a 3D printer next month
18:44:28 <kmc> so I'll probably be trying that out
18:44:53 <fizzie> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:387442 is the thing I made. (It's the only thing I've made.)
18:45:03 <fizzie> Not particularly useful if you don't have a N900 though.
18:46:05 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79846&oldid=79829 * Thief * (+148) Add 8 new keywords
18:46:41 <kmc> it would probably work for other phones?
18:47:03 <kmc> at least with some tweaking
18:47:08 <fizzie> Presuambly, by adjusting the dimensions.
18:47:38 <fizzie> It's all parametric, because of course that's the point with OpenSCAD.
18:49:42 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79847&oldid=79846 * Thief * (+705) Add "Variables" section
18:50:24 <fizzie> I imagine if you just set the phone_{width,depth,height_tall,height_short} variables, and the front_drop_pos, you could make it work on any suitably cuboid phone. But it may not really be the optimal design.
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18:56:38 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79848&oldid=79847 * Thief * (+602) /* Variables */ clarification
18:57:06 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79849&oldid=79848 * Thief * (-12) /* Variables */ fix anim -> boner issue
18:58:42 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79850&oldid=79849 * Thief * (+1) /* Variables */ add missing angle bracket
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19:18:01 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79851&oldid=79850 * Thief * (+83) Add 4 new keywords
19:18:31 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79852&oldid=79851 * Thief * (+2) /* Overview */ fix keyword issue
19:19:30 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79853&oldid=79852 * Thief * (+8) /* Overview */ fix issue with empty string
19:20:24 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79854&oldid=79853 * Thief * (+21) /* Variables */ revise syntax in accordance with update
19:34:01 <esowiki> [[Triski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79855&oldid=79845 * Tetrapyronia * (+234)
20:00:10 <rain1> tony hawk on agdq next, should be cool
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20:49:03 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79856&oldid=79844 * CatIsFluffy * (+153) /* Computational class */ another path
21:03:50 <esowiki> [[Triski]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79857&oldid=79855 * Tetrapyronia * (+107)
21:13:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79858 * Tetrapyronia * (+213) Created page with "Where does the robot start on the tape? Ex. Input = '1', Tape = <code><infinte 0s> 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 <infinite 0s><\code> Would the robot start at the first block? (the first 0..."
21:13:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79859&oldid=79858 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
21:14:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79860&oldid=79859 * Tetrapyronia * (+116)
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00:04:05 <Arcorann> I hear the winners for the 27th IOCCC are out
00:07:15 <b_jonas> I missed that, despite that I checked their webpage:
00:07:32 <b_jonas> it says "Released the winners of the 27th IOCCC." which they've done months ago
00:07:39 <b_jonas> but actually it links to the winning entries
00:08:49 <b_jonas> `ioccclist source code for the 27th IOCCC (submission between 2019-12 and 2020-05) released
00:08:50 <HackEso> ioccclist source code for the 27th IOCCC (submission between 2019-12 and 2020-05) released: b_jonas rain2 rain1
00:10:54 <rain1> yes! I didn't expect it til august
00:16:21 <HackEso> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
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00:18:32 <esowiki> [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79861&oldid=79834 * Quintopia * (+31) paradigm
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00:20:40 <esowiki> [[LRIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79862&oldid=75988 * Lebster * (+126) formatting
00:23:10 <zzo38> O, OK, let me to see then.
00:26:01 <zzo38> Why does it take that long?
00:28:47 <zzo38> It doesn't use only printf; it uses scanf also.
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01:18:16 <zzo38> If you like the different puzzle games, to also consider about Free Hero Mesh, which is also open source (so, it is suitable for Freenode, I suppose), and also has its own programming language (including a Turing-complete preprocessor).
01:18:55 <zzo38> The tag system in the preprocessor is: {define "skip" {call \2}} {define "1" {skip \1|"3"|"3"|"2"|"1"|"H"}} {define "2" {skip \1|"3"|"3"|"1"}} {define "3" {skip \1|"3"|"3"}} {define "H" \1} {call "2"|"1"|"1"}
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01:42:26 <zzo38> How many formats are there for VHS recording? I have heard of SP, LP, EP, 24-hour surveillance format, and a audio-only format sometimes used for telephone recording. How many VCRs can play all of them?
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02:07:01 <kmc> there are also data formats that used VHS tape
02:08:26 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArVid
02:08:40 <kmc> though this seems to use a standard VCR, and could be considered data modulated as video
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02:12:01 <zzo38> It is Russian, so I don't know much about it other than what is written on Wikipedia. Is it only compatible with PAL and not NTSC?
02:14:49 <kmc> from reading the FAQ (auto translated by google) I believe so
02:15:12 <kmc> there is also S-VHS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-VHS
02:15:21 <kmc> which used physically similar but higher quality tapes than regular VHS
02:15:38 <kmc> however it seems there were also attempts at encoding the S-VHS signal (or something close to it) on normal VHS tapes
02:15:49 <kmc> and there was a digital version of S-VHS as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-VHS
02:24:14 <zzo38> Although still that is different from VHS
02:27:35 <kmc> I dimly recall reading about a product sold in the US similar to ArVid
02:27:48 <kmc> it was a pretty compelling idea
02:28:14 <kmc> several GB of backup capacity (bigger than most hard drives at the time) on a tape cheaply available from any consumer electronics store
02:29:24 <kmc> the downside i guess is that backup/restore are very slow and you don't have any random-access capability even to the minimal extent of other purpose-made data tape formats
02:31:38 <zzo38> Yes, but now I have DVDs for backup, it works better
02:38:18 <zzo38> (Although, even though it is a DVD, I still use the tape archive format)
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02:55:24 <kmc> .tar file?
03:07:42 <zzo38> Yes, although also compressed with gzip
03:16:18 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79863&oldid=79710 * Thief * (+79) /* General languages */ add Boner++
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05:35:34 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79864&oldid=79837 * Hakerh400 * (+134) +[[Hot]]
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06:17:07 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79865&oldid=79833 * Quintopia * (+15) deadfish
06:21:53 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79866&oldid=79865 * Quintopia * (+31) smbf
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09:07:49 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79867&oldid=79866 * Quintopia * (+13) /* Interpreters written in Python */
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11:40:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to convert a lambda expression to SKI expressions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79868 * Hakerh400 * (+12340) .
11:40:56 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79869&oldid=79768 * Hakerh400 * (+130) /* Articles */
11:41:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79870&oldid=79869 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Articles */
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22:59:00 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79871&oldid=77248 * Zzo38 * (+420) Free Hero Mesh
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00:04:31 <esowiki> [[V]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79872 * Bo Tie * (+2447) I'm pretty new to esoteric programming languages, improve and suggest things that are bad
01:33:50 <esowiki> [[Eternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79873&oldid=79557 * Quadril-Is * (+0) the word was in the wrong place
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07:44:42 <esowiki> [[User:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79874&oldid=79651 * Razetime * (+51)
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09:14:30 <Taneb> Is "Polynomial in one variable on R" an endofunctor on the category of commutative rings?
09:19:01 <Taneb> (Where Polynomial(f) is the function that applies f to all the coefficients)
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10:01:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:V]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79875 * Quintopia * (+102) gravity
10:02:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79876&oldid=79875 * Quintopia * (+90) sig
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10:46:42 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79877&oldid=73523 * Quintopia * (+6) remove contradiction in description
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13:04:27 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79878&oldid=79877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Push "false " */ Add extremely golfed version
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14:03:54 <b_jonas> you know that discredited old meme "https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetyPercentOfYourBrain" "humans only use 10 percent of their brains"? we should start spreading the rumour that the average software is using less than ten percent of the computational capacity of the computer hardware, and if you only wrote software that uses the computer more efficiently, you could unlock hidden powers.
14:04:00 <b_jonas> this is much more defensible than the brain thing, though perhaps only because I understand how computers work.
14:07:19 <rain1> it's the other way around
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14:07:36 <rain1> average software is using 100% of a core to do what could be done in 1%
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14:38:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79879&oldid=79876 * Bo Tie * (+227) /* How does gravity change exactly? */
14:50:09 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79880&oldid=79872 * Bo Tie * (+434)
14:53:53 <esowiki> [[User:Bo Tie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79881 * Bo Tie * (+83) Created page with "Hi, I'm Bo Tie! I'm currently: * making [[v]] * being bad at writing my user page"
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15:03:49 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79882&oldid=79880 * Bo Tie * (+248)
15:14:04 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79883&oldid=79882 * Bo Tie * (+0)
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15:56:43 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79884&oldid=79883 * Bo Tie * (+366) Added Fibonacci sequence and '$'
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18:06:52 <esowiki> [[TOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79885&oldid=60348 * Null * (+41)
18:07:06 <esowiki> [[TOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79886&oldid=79885 * Null * (+1)
18:34:22 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79887&oldid=79884 * Bo Tie * (+20)
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20:32:56 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79888 * Tetrapyronia * (+1187)
20:34:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79889&oldid=79864 * Tetrapyronia * (+60) Added Lossia
20:34:45 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79890&oldid=79888 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
20:35:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79891&oldid=79836 * Tetrapyronia * (+26)
20:36:15 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79892&oldid=79891 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
20:37:22 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79893&oldid=79890 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) changed a command
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20:53:41 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79894&oldid=79893 * Tetrapyronia * (-2)
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22:31:11 <Marreko> What a white man is doing in a afro-descendant syncretism religion?
22:32:20 <zzo38> Anyone could learn any kind of religion(s), I think.
22:32:34 <Marreko> if he dont have wife, son, daughter, nobady black in your family?
22:33:00 <imode> first time I've seen you here. good bait.
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00:30:53 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79895&oldid=79540 * Pppery * (+10) Per request at https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/56675495#56675495
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01:43:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lossia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79896 * JonoCode9374 * (+40) Created page with "Does printing a value discard the value?"
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02:19:29 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79897&oldid=79894 * JonoCode9374 * (+1259)
02:25:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79898&oldid=79703 * JonoCode9374 * (+106)
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03:12:19 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79899&oldid=79897 * Tetrapyronia * (+26) printing doesn't discard value
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03:23:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lossia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79900&oldid=79896 * Tetrapyronia * (+236)
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04:15:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79901&oldid=79900 * Tetrapyronia * (+15)
04:16:04 <moony> My Parallax Propeller arrived
04:16:13 <moony> the only appropriate first project is a brainfuck interpreter
04:16:22 <moony> just to get a feel for the asm
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07:52:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79902&oldid=79898 * Razetime * (+39)
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13:02:20 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79903&oldid=79386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Example Program: Truth-machine */ See also
13:03:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79904&oldid=79806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* L */ Add [[Lossia]]
13:09:12 <esowiki> [[Lossia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79905&oldid=79899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Online Interpreter */ Category languages
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13:14:10 <AnDrEs4> Over 40.000$ BitCoin https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 Earn Your BitCoin Now!!!
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13:15:55 <fizzie> Aww, our own little channel is important enough to get one of those bitcoin spams.
13:18:47 <int-e> I think they're actively avoiding the big channels.
13:21:44 <fizzie> Mmaybe. There was one on #perl, which is a little bigger, but not that big.
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13:33:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
13:34:05 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is eerily topical
13:34:09 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is eerily topical
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14:27:19 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79906&oldid=79889 * Tetrapyronia * (+139) Added Arrow
14:27:36 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79907&oldid=79892 * Tetrapyronia * (+12)
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14:56:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think you have to be too important to get spam.
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14:58:38 <b_jonas> oh yeah, that was overdue. the previous password was from 2020-12-01.
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15:04:52 <b_jonas> GDQ is running early? what's happening?
15:05:12 <b_jonas> ah no, they changed the schedule
15:05:18 <b_jonas> probably had to rearrange something
15:06:36 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79908 * RocketRace * (+3562) Begin Sygyl
15:10:13 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79909&oldid=79908 * RocketRace * (+64) just some formatting
15:10:42 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79910&oldid=79909 * RocketRace * (+6) formatting errors
15:11:10 <esowiki> [[Sygyl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79911&oldid=79910 * RocketRace * (-2) /* Evaluation of programs */
15:17:25 <b_jonas> oh darn, I don't have a paper pocket calendar for 2021 yet
15:17:31 <b_jonas> I should have bought one in advance
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16:39:11 <esowiki> [[V^3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79912 * Bo Tie * (+17) Redirected page to [[V]]
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17:42:57 <esowiki> [[PUSH++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79913 * Expliked * (+3) Created page with "WIP"
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23:32:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79915&oldid=79902 * JonoCode9374 * (+29)
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00:49:48 <esowiki> [[Arrow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79916&oldid=47308 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Rm pointless markup; deadlink
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13:17:55 <esowiki> [[Hexish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79917&oldid=37108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+253) Examples (I think)
13:27:57 <esowiki> [[Minimum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79918&oldid=43754 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Interpreter */ cats
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15:33:27 <arseniiv> can one joke and laugh naturally and daily but still have a mild depression? I can’t understand if I have enough drive to do things, and stupid people bickering makes me sad to a degree I lose interest in good things. But maybe not as much, dunno
15:36:53 <arseniiv> not sad per se, but maybe just makes me metaphorically sick?..
15:55:52 <arseniiv> (I’m afraid that if I really have some disbalance at this front, come I to a specialist, they wouldn’t prescribe me anything, as I heard here they aren’t aware that light cases do exist in great numbers and should be treated, and I don’t want going through specialists until something finally clicks, as I simply wouldn’t afford that)
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18:09:26 <kmc> i don't think antidepressants should be a first-line response in such cases, anyway
18:09:49 <kmc> they are not very effective by the numbers, and have serious side effects, cause physical dependence / addiction, and once you're on them you are de facto expected to take them for life
18:10:57 <kmc> but they're very popular as a quick band-aid sort of "fix" to problems that may be more psychological or social than chemical in nature
18:11:19 <kmc> not to say that they aren't helpful to some
18:13:48 <kmc> there are lots of adjustments you could make to your daily routine such as sleep habits, exercise, a meditation practice, change of scenery in various sorts that may increase your motivation and make you less put off by other people's bickering
18:15:30 <kmc> you could also talk it through in more detail with a therapist, who will have lots more and more specific suggestions on how to adjust your perspective
18:19:50 <kmc> i also find that the occasional trip with magic mushrooms or other psychedelic of choice is great to clear the cobwebs from the mind and rekindle an interest in things
18:20:07 <kmc> but it's definitely not for everyone
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19:32:07 <arseniiv> kmc: thanks for kind advice :)
19:34:31 <kmc> arseniiv: you're welcome, and good luck :)
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00:32:53 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79919&oldid=72586 * CatIsFluffy * (+1580) Translation to lambda calculus
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02:10:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CatCatDeluxe * New user account
02:17:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79921&oldid=79838 * CatCatDeluxe * (+226) introduction thingy
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02:22:29 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79922 * CatCatDeluxe * (+307) Created page with "I'm CatCatDeluxe, I like to do programming. I wouldn't be on here if I didn't lol anyways I'll probably make some interpreters for languages I think look cool (and easy to ma..."
02:24:17 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79923&oldid=79922 * CatCatDeluxe * (+102)
02:33:12 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79924&oldid=79920 * CatIsFluffy * (+1989) /* Converting Underload to lambda calculus */ Translate swap to lambda calculus
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04:20:33 <esowiki> [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79925&oldid=79924 * CatIsFluffy * (+0) /* Converting Underload to lambda calculus */ Bugfix
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10:08:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * G4shaped * New user account
10:12:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79926&oldid=79921 * G4shaped * (+67)
10:12:41 <esowiki> [[User:G4shaped]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79927 * G4shaped * (+13) Created page with "{{lowercase}}"
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11:03:37 <rain1> https://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/
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11:07:40 <Arcorann> What do you want to talk about?
11:08:25 <imode> permanent power outage or temporary one?
11:08:26 <Lykaina> always scared during these things
11:08:58 <imode> all's well. whatever's there before the dark is there after the dark.
11:09:15 <Lykaina> temporary, i hope...i want heat
11:09:30 <imode> grab some blankets preemptively and bundle yourself up tight.
11:09:59 <Lykaina> i'm running off of cell phone wifi
11:11:09 <Lykaina> i set my ipad to "low data usage"
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11:19:01 <Lykaina> i was awake when it happened
11:20:37 <Lykaina> it's why i have 5 nightlights
11:23:08 <Lykaina> dont want to risk opening fridge
11:38:18 <Lykaina> 9:15am is when they anticipate power restore
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11:43:46 <arseniiv> fungot what’s your unbiased opinion on triangle inequality?
11:43:46 <fungot> arseniiv: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
11:46:47 <Lykaina> gtg phone is charged...gonna disconnect external battery and shut off wifi
13:27:17 <b_jonas> Lykaina: I don't know where you are, is this a power outage while there's still enough daylight from the window or it's dark?
13:28:00 <b_jonas> ah, you already say "it's 6:38 am" two hours ago so that must be east coast
13:29:13 <b_jonas> I'm not generally scared during power outage because I'm familiar enough with my apartment that I can navigate it even in the dark,
13:29:38 <b_jonas> and it's the city, sky is never dark even when there's an outage in the whole block
13:29:55 <b_jonas> but when I am outside of towns, then the darkness and silence is creepy and I can't sleep
13:40:32 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79928&oldid=74122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+135) /* External resources */ Link to [[User:CatCatDeluxe]]'s interpreter
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22:54:46 <zzo38> Level 21, 32, 64, and 97 of SANDY1 don't work so far. In the case of level 21 and 97, this seems to be a mistake made by the author of those levels. In the case of level 32, the provided solution seems to be invalid; I am not sure how that happened, In the case of level 64, this seems to be my own fault, although I have not figured out what the problem is.
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07:07:58 <Sgeo> I usually go to sleep later than this. Probably not a good habit
07:10:22 <lambdabot> Local time for Sgeo is Mon Jan 11 02:10:20
08:08:23 <shachaf> I tried to reconstruct KMP string search from "memory" (I never actually looked at the details so it's not really memory), and ended up with something else instead.
08:08:42 <shachaf> With a lookup table of size |pattern| * 256
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08:47:54 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah KMP builds a very compactly represented NFA, not a DFA.
08:48:45 <shachaf> Right, I saw something about that.
08:49:51 <shachaf> Or, hmm, this book says that KMP uses a deterministic automaton.
08:50:18 <shachaf> And compares it to shift-and which uses a nondeterministic automaton, it says.
08:50:23 <int-e> KMP has epsilon transitions
08:51:26 <shachaf> Epsilon transitions? I must be thinking of something else then.
08:51:50 <shachaf> Or maybe it's just about how you're thinking of it.
08:51:53 <int-e> Maybe I'm taking a too detailed view on KMP.
08:53:01 <shachaf> If you have /.*pattern/, you can think of the NFA where state 0 has a transition to state 1 on p, and also to state 0 on every character.
08:53:12 <int-e> In that view, each time you compare a letter from the haystack with a letter from the needle, a transition is made.
08:54:13 <int-e> And each time these are not equal, the haystack letter is not consumed... so that makes it an epsilon transition to my mind.
08:54:37 <int-e> But then again it lacks the annoying property of NFAs that you have to keep track of several states...
08:55:02 <shachaf> I was sort of thinking you operate by always taking one character at a time and doing your transitions, which is why I ended up with a DFA.
08:55:09 <int-e> So it's a weird beast inbetween :)
08:55:16 <shachaf> But the trick is that it's allowed to choose not to consume characters.
08:55:29 <shachaf> So a single character can take multiple transitions (possibly all the way back to 0).
08:56:15 <int-e> Mainly this was/is me trying to make sense of the table that KMP builds.
08:56:24 <shachaf> I think I vaguely remember something about that now.
08:56:31 <int-e> Which if it is viewed as a DFA, is hard.
08:57:22 <shachaf> But it's still guaranteed to take linear time.
08:58:09 <int-e> Oh yes. Each DFA transition takes amortized constant time.
08:58:45 <int-e> But you almost certainly know that.
08:59:04 <shachaf> I "know" it but it's not immediately obvious why.
08:59:10 <shachaf> I guess it's some typical amortized argument.
08:59:21 <shachaf> To be able to jump back you must have gone forward some number of steps.
08:59:30 <int-e> Each epsilon transition goes back in the needle, so is paid for by a previous transition that advanced in the needle.
09:00:18 <int-e> So that's your cost per character: Advance the needle, plus a potential epsilon transition that skips back.
09:02:15 <shachaf> Right, that's the sort of thing I meant.
09:03:04 <shachaf> So, hmm, you get at most 2n transitions or something?
09:03:11 <int-e> (and then, of course, there's building the table)
09:03:55 <shachaf> Where "n" is the length of the haystack, not the needle, despite the confusing name.
09:04:34 <shachaf> Anyway, this book doesn't actually get into the details of KMP. It says it's mainly useful for short needles, and there are better algorithms for those.
09:05:31 <int-e> Hmm. Somehow I've never studied Boyer-Moore.
09:06:28 <int-e> Beyond the very basic idea (skip ahead a full needle's length; if you're lucky the character you find is none of the needle characters, and then you'll process the string much faster)
09:07:02 <shachaf> Well, according to this book, Boyer-Moore is slower and more complicated than its Horspool simplification.
09:07:15 <int-e> I've never even heard of that one
09:07:43 <int-e> But that's consistent with what I said :)
09:07:54 <shachaf> It's what GNU memmem uses, apparently.
09:08:38 <int-e> (consistent: the difference is in the details that I never studied)
09:10:24 <shachaf> Shift-And looks really simple.
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09:28:40 <shachaf> This algorithm is just simulating an NFA in parallel with bitwise operations.
09:28:57 <shachaf> So the transition is: state = ((state << 1) | 1) & table[c];
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09:37:57 <shachaf> And to be slightly trickier you can invert all the bits to get shift-or.
09:38:15 <shachaf> Then shifting left gives you a 0 for free, so the transition is just: state = (state << 1) | table[c];
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10:03:28 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe Horspool is just what I thought Boyer-Moore was.
10:10:51 <int-e> If it's a simplification...
10:11:04 <int-e> ...it's likely to get taught.
10:12:14 <shachaf> If that's true, why does anyone teach bubble sort ever?
10:12:23 <shachaf> What a terrible algorithm.
10:15:48 <int-e> Because of the name...
10:16:04 <int-e> And it's so easy to implement in place.
10:16:23 <int-e> Also it's really a family of algorithms.
10:19:05 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Insertion_and_Bubble_networks
10:20:11 <shachaf> Yes, I know it's the same sorting network as insertion sort.
10:20:22 <shachaf> But that's not an advantage over insertion sort. Insertion sort is just better.
10:20:55 <shachaf> It's not just more efficient, it's simpler and more obviously correct.
10:21:14 <int-e> I really think it's the evocative name, and the physical analogy, that makes bubble sort popular.
10:24:54 <int-e> from a practical perspective I'd probably start with bucket or radix sort on a deck of cards :P
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11:14:25 <shachaf> Oh, this Horspool thing is actually not what I was thinking.
11:14:57 <shachaf> It places a window at a particular location, but then it just checks whether the window matches, which you can do either backward or forward.
11:15:14 <shachaf> Then if there's a mismatch it decides how to move the window based on the last byte in the window. That's it.
11:16:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Txlyre * New user account
11:39:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79931&oldid=79926 * Txlyre * (+161) Add my introduction.
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13:44:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes. it's an algorithm that almost never comes up anymore on modern machines. it made a bit more sense back when RAMs read one byte at a time but were the same frequency as the CPU and almost no latency. you'll find a more precise description in Knuth volume 5. it isn't even described in Cormen, or in Rónyai–Ivanyos–Szabó, ... hmm
13:45:19 <b_jonas> it must be in some book. I know I was supposed to understand this (and the other two string search algorithms) for an exam.
13:49:20 <b_jonas> I don't think it's in ed. Iványi either
13:53:25 <b_jonas> is Boyer-Moore the same as that algorithm?
13:55:16 <b_jonas> https://regi.tankonyvtar.hu/hu/tartalom/tamop425/0046_algoritmusok/ch11.html this book lists three different nontrivial string search algorithms
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15:47:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79933&oldid=79931 * Shahryar * (+325) /* Introductions */
15:57:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79934&oldid=79904 * Shahryar * (+16) /* Non-alphabetic */
15:59:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79935&oldid=79934 * Shahryar * (+16) /* P */
16:12:34 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79936 * Shahryar * (+408) Plutonium Programming Language Intro
16:16:39 <esowiki> [[User:Shahryar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79937 * Shahryar * (+194) Created page with "Hi, I am Shahryar Ahmad.I am a self taught teenage programmer.I love programming.I created my own programming language plutonium.I code in C/C++ and these are my favourite pro..."
16:30:53 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79938&oldid=79932 * Nailuj29 * (+72)
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16:54:51 <shachaf> b_jonas: The algorithm I'm describing is certainly in the Boyer-Moore family.
16:56:09 <shachaf> The book I'm reading divides string-in-string search algorithms into approximately three families, KMP-like, BM-like, and ones based on substrings (which it calls factors).
16:56:35 <shachaf> Rabin-Karp is yet another method, which it hasn't even mentioned yet.
16:56:57 <shachaf> Maybe it'll mention it if don't-care characters come up later.
16:57:51 <shachaf> Anyway, BNDM -- Backward Nondeterministic Dawg Matching -- is an example of the factor algorithm. https://www-igm.univ-mlv.fr/~lecroq/string/bndm.html looks like a link for it?
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17:00:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: Rabin-Karp is mentioned in the book that I linked, and in Cormen
17:01:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't there an additional family of randomized (hashing) algorithms?
17:01:18 <shachaf> Yes, I know what Rabin-Karp is, I just mean that so far it hasn't mentioned rolling hashes or anything.
17:01:50 <b_jonas> ah right, Rabin-Karp is the randomized one
17:02:13 <shachaf> My vague recollection of this topic is that optimal time for searching with don't-care characters in the pattern is pretty tricky to achieve with conventional algorithms.
17:02:40 <shachaf> And that maybe a rolling hash method does best at it, or something.
17:03:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't that only if you insist on theoretical asymptotics though, while most of the practical input data that you want to search for is much easier, though you have to be careful when users can give you text and/or search queries of course?
17:04:02 <shachaf> I think that's right. This book is pretty practically-minded.
17:04:49 <b_jonas> well, in the end we'll just have to wait for Knuth vol 5 for a clear summary and final word
17:06:37 <shachaf> I quite like these methods that store a set of states in a machine word.
17:07:06 <shachaf> Even if they're limited to search for patterns of size 64 or something.
17:08:58 <shachaf> One thing this book doesn't cover at all is offline algorithms, where you can build an index on the text.
17:09:20 <shachaf> I'd read another book about those because there are so many interesting tricks there.
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17:24:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79941&oldid=79933 * Chibiningen * (+159)
17:25:21 <esowiki> [[User:Chibiningen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79942 * Chibiningen * (+13) Created page with "Irashaimasen."
17:28:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Imaginary function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79943&oldid=43070 * Chibiningen * (+164)
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19:52:26 <rain1> file format for packing multiple files togethr: (filename\0data\0)* works with files who do not contain \0
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19:57:31 <zzo38> Yes, although other than text files, many files will contain \0
19:58:20 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_Overhead_Byte_Stuffing
20:03:14 <zzo38> That will work, although that makes it a more complicated format. (Although for some applications that might still be helpful, I suppose.)
20:09:28 <zzo38> Although I generally prefer the Hamster archive format, which is like what rain1 described except instead of adding a null byte after the data, add the 32-bit PDP-endian data size before the data. (Of course, different formats have their own advantages and disadvantages, such as this won't work if the data size won't fit in a 32-bit number.)
20:09:34 <kmc> if the goal is just to pack files together then i reckon a length-prefixed format is better than a delimited format
20:10:18 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too.
20:10:22 <kmc> the length-prefixed format doesn't require processing the file data at all, and it allows a reader to easily skip files that are not of interest, assuming the archive is on a seekable medium
20:12:14 <zzo38> Yes, I did think of that too (and have taken advantage of that too).
20:14:34 <kmc> COBS is good for something like a serial data link where a) you don't necessarily know the length of a packet when you start transmitting it and b) you want to be able to jump into the middle of a stream and resynchronize as soon as you reach the end of a packet
20:15:19 <kmc> I am thinking the next time I build an embedded system which needs to send structured data over a serial link, I might use CBOR + COBS
20:17:53 <zzo38> Yes, I believe you; that makes sense.
20:23:16 <kmc> serialization is a surprisingly hard problem
20:23:48 <kmc> it often seems stupid that the world has so many serialization formats, but it's surprisingly tricky to design a good one, and there are a lot of conflicting requirements such that there isn't necessarily one best choice
20:53:05 <shachaf> Man, this string searching loop is so good: for (int i = 0; i < text_size; i++) { state = (state >> 1) | table[text[i]]; if ((state & 1) == 0) { /* found */ } }
20:55:29 <rain1> does table just put how many chars left are need as bits?
20:56:45 <shachaf> I guess you can put it that way?
20:57:43 <rain1> it seems ok, very basic no skip aheads
20:58:45 <shachaf> Yes, it's only for small patterns.
21:00:45 <shachaf> If you want skipahead, Horspool is also really simple (way simpler than Boyer-Moore) and good.
21:02:38 <zzo38> kmc: I think that different formats can be good for different purposes, although it is true there are some problem with some of them
21:02:39 <rain1> thanks i didn't know about it
21:03:05 <shachaf> window_left := 0; while (window_left <= end - pattern_size) { if (s[window_left:window_left+pattern_size] == pattern) { /* found */ } else { window_left += table[text[window_left + pattern_size - 1]]; }
21:03:14 <shachaf> Where that if is doing string comparison, of course.
21:04:15 <shachaf> And the table just has the rightmost occurrence of each character (excluding the last one).
21:06:54 <zzo38> I think XML is too often used as a general purpose serialization format when it isn't very good for that; what XML is good for is stuff like HTML (and avoids some of the problems of HTML).
21:07:16 <kmc> XML has a lot of problems
21:08:06 <zzo38> Yes, it does have a lot of its own problems too
21:16:17 <zzo38> One serialization format that is often missed is the format produced by the printobject operator in PostScript.
21:16:26 <kmc> I do like some things that XML can do, such as namespacing of tags, ability to embed one type of XML document in another, and schemas to check validity
21:16:32 <kmc> but these things are often not used or used improperly
21:16:37 <kmc> and the concrete syntax of XML is very cumbersome
21:16:48 <kmc> which defeats the purpose of a "human-readable" format
21:17:03 <kmc> and if it's not going to be human-readable/editable then it could be a more efficient and easy to parse binary format
21:17:19 <kmc> zzo38: what is that format?
21:17:43 <zzo38> XML is way too often misused I think. The good things XML can do is good for things like HTML, not for other kind of stuff, I think.
21:18:14 <zzo38> kmc: Here is a description: http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/PostScript_binary_object_format
21:18:57 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79946&oldid=79936 * Tetrapyronia * (+53) added link (needs formatting and stuff)
21:19:24 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79947&oldid=79946 * Tetrapyronia * (-9)
21:23:12 <kmc> HTML isn't even proper XML
21:23:24 <kmc> and the project to turn it into proper XML failed and was abandoned
21:24:14 <zzo38> Yes, I know, HTML isn't even proper XML.
21:24:25 <b_jonas> kmc: it wasn't abandonned. while we don't transmit HTML written as XML, browsers and their Javascript DOM interface effectively expose a view of the live internal state of HTML document that is basically an XML tree
21:24:58 <b_jonas> so XML is a good way to describe how the semantics works
21:25:48 <kmc> it still differs from XML
21:25:54 <b_jonas> we just don't want to apply the restrictions of XML to the HTML files that we transmit because that'd be pointless. like, no \x00 characters? it'd just be a stupid extra requirement on the side that serves the XHTML, when the browser side will always have to be able to parse full HTML anyway.
21:26:31 <b_jonas> kmc: sure, it differs, but I don't think that counts as abandonned
21:26:34 <kmc> I agree that HTML is similar to XML and some of the same concepts apply when working with a DOM
21:26:41 <b_jonas> the XML thing wasn't a dead-end
21:26:49 <b_jonas> it just led to the DOM interface that isn't quite XML
21:27:02 <kmc> the idea of serializing HTML pages in an XML compatible format basically went nowhere
21:27:12 <kmc> there is actually an XML compatible serialization of HTML5 documents (XHTML5)
21:27:15 <kmc> but I don't think it's used much
21:27:22 <kmc> it does not parse as standard HTML5, I don't think
21:27:27 <kmc> it would have a different content-type
21:27:31 <kmc> and a different, much stricter parser
21:28:02 <kmc> versus the HTML5 parser which is a precisely specified complicated ball of garbage meant to parse any vaguely correct HTML-ish thing anyone's ever written since 1990
21:32:23 <fizzie> "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" for life
21:33:34 <kmc> <!DOCTYPE html> is so much shorter
21:33:39 <fizzie> Remember when web pages had that button at the bottom where it proudly proclaimed which standard it validates at, and when you clicked it, you got a validator report with at least a dozen errors?
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22:46:55 <oren> Did they ever fix the vertical alignment problem in HTML?
22:47:18 <oren> (where there is no portable way to vertically centre anything, other than using tables)
22:47:57 <shachaf> Does flex-whatever not do it nowadays?
22:48:29 <zzo38> Isn't there some CSS command to position something as though it is a table cell?
22:50:02 <zzo38> (Although maybe I am wrong; my use of CSS is mostly limited to correcting the bad designs of other CSS writers.)
22:51:29 <oren> oh apparently display:flex with align-items:center does vertical centring
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23:37:45 <fizzie> They did a multicolumn CSS thing too, right?
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23:54:22 <kmc> zzo38: yes, table layout is fully specified by CSS
23:54:57 <kmc> that is, there is nothing special about <table> and <td> etc. tags, you could use <div class="table"> and <div class="td"> and so forth and get the same results with an appropriate stylesheet
23:55:26 <kmc> fun fact: you can even style normally invisible tags such as <script> to be visible
23:55:39 <kmc> try injecting "script { display: block; }" as user CSS on your favorite website and see what happens
23:55:47 <kmc> talk about literate programming!
23:57:08 <zzo38> Yes, although <TABLE> is still useful for some purposes, such as, if the user disabled CSS, if you use a browser that doesn't have CSS, or so that a browser that implements some special commands for use with tables can deal with tables, such as sorting, SQL queries, export, etc.
23:59:49 <kmc> as far as i know, the use of <table> is still considered correct for things that are actually semantically tables
23:59:54 <kmc> just not for random bits of site layout
00:00:06 <kmc> and much as you can style any element to look like a table, you can style table elements to look like anything
00:02:49 <kmc> yesterday I added a feature to a little webapp i built that uses Django's forms support and it generates the form as a table
00:03:02 <kmc> (by default, though it can also generate it using <div> or <li> if you like)
00:03:15 <kmc> i was a little surprised by that, but it looks reasonably good with the table styling i already had in place
00:03:22 <kmc> which is: table { border-collapse: collapse; } table, th, td { border: 1px solid black; } tr:nth-child(even) { background: #ddd; } td, th { padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; }
00:04:20 <zzo38> Yes, it is best to use the <table> command if it is semantically tables.
00:06:18 <kmc> my app is a kind of lab notebook for my mushroom growing projects https://imgur.com/a/D6TydFz
00:06:51 <kmc> it is mostly a CRUD app using Django's built in admin module
00:07:12 <kmc> but i have some custom views too
00:08:11 <kmc> I am pretty happy with Django. it's mature, with documented ways to do almost anything; powerful out of the box, but also customizable, and without *too* much implicit magic behavior a la Rails
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00:23:17 <zzo38> In trying to figure out the bug in Free Hero Mesh, I found out, it seems it isn't a bug in Free Hero Mesh; the same behaviour occurs in Hero Mesh depending on the timing of the replay moves, which is something that nothing is supposed to depend on. I suppose that they failed to follow their own advice about MSG_END_TURN, maybe.
00:23:48 <zzo38> Although, even before writing Free Hero Mesh, I had found bugs in the Hero Defiant class set, causing it to do things that are not supposed to be allowed, and breaking the replay feature.
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00:32:52 <kmc> what is Hero Mesh and Free Hero Mesh?
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01:06:31 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79949&oldid=79947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) Cats, stub, external resources
01:12:29 <zzo38> kmc: Hero Mesh is some puzzle game software for Windows, written by Everett Kaser, and Free Hero Mesh is I try to make the Linux version, by trying everything see what behaviour matches and what doesn't, and also to add many improvements too, such as FOSS.
01:16:36 <zzo38> It isn't enough yet to be enough usable so far, since the level editor and picture editor aren't implemented enough yet, although still you can look if you like to do so.
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03:35:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79951&oldid=76737 * Digital Hunter * (-37)
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16:20:51 <PANOPTES> Object oriented esolang based on the idea of ravoili code.
16:20:52 <PANOPTES> (foo[bar|baz]) defines a class foo with a method bar that does baz.
16:20:52 <PANOPTES> (foo<bar a, bar b>) means that every foo object created has two bar objects associated with it. Aside from the accumulator that every object has, this is the only way to store data.
16:20:53 <PANOPTES> (foo[bar|<foo a>]) creates a foo object a, alog with all of its associated objects, when bar is called.
16:20:53 <PANOPTES> (foo {bar}) does bar when a foo object is created: constructor
16:20:54 <PANOPTES> a.b refers to the vaule of object b of object a, i.e the vaule of the accumulator.
16:20:55 <PANOPTES> (m[m|foo]) is the main class. When the progrm is run, the m method of the m object is run, doing foo.
16:24:22 <PANOPTES> Glass exists but this is cooler.*
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16:34:10 <PANOPTES> Minimal idea: increment, decrement, method call, and instruction if a ggiven value is 0
16:34:54 <PANOPTES> should yield a fairly simple translation to bf i think
16:36:54 <PANOPTES> which makes it somewhat boring
16:38:47 <PANOPTES> like arborealis, tree-based esolang which has a simple translation to bf and thus it's easeir to use bf in arborealis than doing idiomatic things
16:39:24 <PANOPTES> which should feel different from bf
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16:56:23 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79954&oldid=79940 * Nailuj29 * (+133) /* External resources */
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18:15:00 <b_jonas> fungot: has the English Scrabble authority issued an errata yet to make "rona" a valid word? or do they not care because nobody can hold big events like Scrabble Tournaments anyway?
18:15:00 <fungot> b_jonas: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff ( and burning, and no clear account. in that second one is horizontally displaced by 1 pixel is sacred. just me, or i: yet, you rogue!
18:42:37 <b_jonas> I'd like to see a game that parodies ridiculous forms of fast movement in platformers as a mechanic. Pick up speed booster and your character learns a roll that's faster than his normal run. Then pick up speed booster rank 2, and then if you hold the run button, they run faster, but the character animation shows a strafe backwards bunnyhop slide starting from a backwards facing longjump, with a wallkick
18:42:42 <b_jonas> if you start running away from a wall. Only the camera looks the right way, the way you're going rather than the way the character is facing.
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19:55:26 <zzo38> I should suppose they should wait until the next version of the Scrabble dictionary is published, and then it will be valid. (This can be relevant even if you are not playing a tournament, although a different book (with many words omitted, including most words longer than eight letters) will usually be used for a home game.)
21:03:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NezbednikAlt * New user account
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23:38:46 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79955&oldid=79954 * JonoCode9374 * (+148) /* Hello world */ Another example
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01:33:21 <zzo38> Does any programming language have a operator which works like addition, bitwise OR, or bitwise XOR, but with an undefined result if the operands share any bit positions set?
01:35:41 <kmc> not that i'm aware
01:36:36 <kmc> but there is the tristate logic of digital electronics, where 0+Z = 0+0 = 0, 1+Z = 1+1 = 1, and 0+1 = undefined
01:36:40 <kmc> and Z+Z = Z
01:37:34 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, most languages have three such operators, right?
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01:38:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but not an operator that does all three (although if none of the set bit positions are shared, those three operations are equivalent)
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01:40:45 <kmc> (and you can even define "weak" versions of 0 and 1 which override Z but can be overridden by the strong version of either bit)
01:41:53 <kmc> and weak 0 + weak 1 = undefined, but what about (weak 0 + weak 1) + strong 0?
01:42:01 <kmc> i think in the usual CMOS implementation of logic that would be a defined 0
01:42:10 <kmc> but that means that algebraically you need "weak undefined" too
01:43:13 <kmc> and obviously the weak/strong thing breaks down at some point
01:43:50 <kmc> if you have enough different pins driving the same net as "weak 0" then a strong 1 might get it only to undefined or even leave it reading 0
01:45:21 <kmc> the usual solution to that is the open-collector or open-drain bus, wherein you have a single device driving "weak 1" (a pull-up resistor) and the other devices are either strong 0 or Z
01:48:44 <zzo38> I have never seen cases of multiple weak driving the same net at once except in cases where they are all weak (and all the same way 0 or 1), unless I misremembered, or if I missed something. In what I have seen, it is like what you describe, only one weak, the others are strong or Z.
01:56:09 <kmc> I learned the other day that there are "active pull-up" chips like LTC4311 which will feed the bus with extra current while it's rising, and then shut off when it reaches the high voltage so it can be pulled down again
01:56:50 <kmc> thus allowing higher speeds for a given level of bus capacitance
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12:25:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * New user account
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12:39:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79956&oldid=79941 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+130) The introduction of me, Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat! :)
12:42:38 <esowiki> [[User:Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79957 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+88) The website of my user!
12:43:43 <esowiki> [[User:Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79958&oldid=79957 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+4) The website of my user! 2
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13:25:51 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79959 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+2405) Create the wiki for Arsel
13:27:05 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79960&oldid=79959 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (-8) /* The interpreter */
13:28:44 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79961&oldid=79960 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+46) /* The interpreter */
13:29:44 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79962&oldid=79961 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+16) Minor edit
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17:17:43 <esowiki> [[Length]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79963&oldid=79955 * Nailuj29 * (+76)
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18:56:47 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79964&oldid=79962 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) /* Instructions */ Convert to table
18:58:28 <esowiki> [[Arsel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79965&oldid=79964 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) /* The interpreter */ Cats
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19:23:25 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79966&oldid=79948 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* A */ Add [[Arsel]]
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23:08:11 <zzo38> Is there any .NSF music player which will use two separate filter programs (operating using stdin/stdout), one which converts the NSF to the (infinite) register stream, and one which converts the register stream to the (also infinite) audio stream?
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02:59:30 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79967 * Digital Hunter * (+11861) Created a page on an esolang I made over the past week or so
03:00:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79968 * Digital Hunter * (+111) Created page with "Hello.--~~~~"
03:01:37 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79969&oldid=79950 * Digital Hunter * (+138) /* About me */
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03:03:56 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79970&oldid=78822 * Digital Hunter * (-582) Sorry, this page shouldn't quite exist anymore as my plans for Parent the sizing have been ended. Its spirit lives on in the parens of Parse this sic.
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03:39:57 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79971&oldid=79967 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Info to come */
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10:39:23 <esowiki> [[Gene]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79972&oldid=79817 * Sinthorion * (-1) /* Instruction Set */ spelling mistake
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11:27:33 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79973&oldid=79521 * D * (+178) /* Match / Mismatch */
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11:40:37 <esowiki> [[User:Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79974&oldid=79958 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+116) Minor edit
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12:16:42 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79975&oldid=79973 * D * (+389) /* Introduction */ Add pattern matching info
12:31:56 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79976&oldid=79975 * D * (+118)
12:35:07 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79977&oldid=79976 * D * (+226) /* External resources */
12:35:31 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79978&oldid=79977 * D * (+7) /* External resources */
13:01:43 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79979&oldid=79978 * D * (+77) /* Thread Join */ The rholang cheatsheet https://rholang.github.io/tutorials/cheat-sheet/ appears to have this syntax, I assume it's borrowed from rho-calculus (correct me if I'm wrong)
13:09:44 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79980&oldid=79979 * D * (+659) /* Extensions */
13:13:51 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79981&oldid=79980 * D * (+170) /* Rho calculus */
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13:40:47 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79982&oldid=79981 * D * (+286) /* Extensions */
13:45:07 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79983&oldid=79982 * D * (+285) /* Rho calculus */
13:50:21 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79984&oldid=79983 * D * (-47) /* Arithmetic and common data structures */
13:53:19 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79985&oldid=79984 * D * (+116) /* Rho calculus */
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15:00:56 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79986&oldid=79638 * Quintopia * (+32) infobox
15:04:18 <esowiki> [[Cellbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79987&oldid=45666 * Quintopia * (+36) cat
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16:16:36 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79988&oldid=79485 * Bo Tie * (+1)
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17:30:34 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79989 * Quintopia * (+8125) created page
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18:12:03 <ais523> kmc: VHDL, designed for modelling digital circuits, does indeed have 0, 1, Z, weak 0 (L), weak 1 (H), undefined (X), weak undefined (W)
18:12:14 <ais523> plus two more values, uninitialized (U) and don't care (-)
18:12:27 <ais523> so the "usual" boolean type in VHDL has 9 different values
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20:51:00 <int-e> Hmm would Z be a floating state?
20:51:45 * int-e wonders more about the notion of weakness...
20:54:13 <int-e> Oh I have a guess: A weak zero will pull a line to zero, unless there's a strong 1 on it as well... so useful for busses.
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22:12:10 <zzo38> Is it related to default logic?
22:12:25 <kmc> int-e: yes
22:12:51 <kmc> the usual hardware implementation is a pull-up or pull-down resistor
22:13:08 <kmc> that is, you connect the line to Vcc or ground through a large-ish (~10k ohm) resistor
22:13:45 <kmc> CMOS logic inputs are high-impedance; they only sense voltage, and draw minimal current
22:14:07 <kmc> so if nothing else is driving that line, its voltage will read at nearly Vcc / ground
22:15:45 <kmc> but if an output drives the line then the low-impedance output will form a voltage divider with the relatively high impedance of the pull-up/down resistor, and the resulting voltage is near the ideal voltage for the output
22:16:44 <kmc> (incidentally this is where "Z" comes from, Z is the symbol for impedance, and inputs / floating pins are described as "high-Z")
22:17:55 <zzo38> O, that is why they call it "Z".
22:20:07 <kmc> in terms of DC characteristics CMOS is pretty close to an "ideal" logic family; inputs are very high impedance, so they don't affect the circuits driving them very much, and outputs are very low impedance, so they can drive a lot of inputs at once (high fan-out)
22:20:46 <kmc> it's more complicated in another logic family such as TTL where inputs can end up sourcing or sinking nontrivial current at steady state
22:41:34 <arseniiv> is it known how much CMOS elements are in today’s circuits?
22:41:54 <arseniiv> more or less, in all of them, vs. other types?
22:49:36 <j4cbo> most things are CMOS
22:54:23 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79990&oldid=79989 * Quintopia * (+38) comments
23:06:22 <kmc> yeah, CMOS became the dominant logic family in the 80s
23:10:23 <kmc> the trick is that making a CMOS chip requires fabricating two kinds of transistors (P-type and N-type MOSFETs) on the same wafer and getting good performance from both
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00:01:28 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79991&oldid=79990 * Quintopia * (-118) edits on request
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00:45:26 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79993&oldid=79971 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) wip
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02:36:08 <lambdabot> EFHK 150220Z 35010KT CAVOK M22/M25 Q1020 NOSIG
02:36:25 <fizzie> Brrr. Heard it's pretty cold and snowy back there.
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06:47:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 150620Z 07006KT 2500 -SN BR FEW005 SCT010 BKN018 M05/M06 Q1017 R88/////// TEMPO BKN010
06:48:00 <int-e> just cold, not extraordinarily so
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07:58:16 <int-e> fungot: are you afraid of MTAs?
07:58:16 <fungot> int-e: to. why, this is for you guys are a lot
07:58:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
07:58:34 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
07:58:37 <int-e> fungot: are you afraid of MTAs?
07:58:37 <fungot> int-e: i think i better eat something
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11:43:28 <shachaf> int-e: I forgot I hadn't finished n-stepping.
11:43:39 <shachaf> Looks like I have 11 stars.
11:44:56 <shachaf> I'm really not sure about some of these, hmm.
11:45:03 <int-e> I already forgot how many there were.
11:45:35 <shachaf> I think you might've said 15?
11:45:46 <shachaf> There are three that I see on the map.
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11:47:39 <int-e> It was in a comment... ah: "Amazing game! Finally got all 15 stars"
11:47:50 <int-e> So there are 16 stars on the map. :-P
11:48:39 <shachaf> I also see several places I don't know how to get to.
11:49:18 <int-e> You have a door to open and probably a mechanic to discover.
11:50:02 <shachaf> Let's see. The stars I see are in 4,12, 5,10, and 4,11.
11:50:16 <shachaf> 4,11 I'm pretty sure is just a standalone thing I need to figure out.
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11:51:16 <shachaf> I had some ideas for 4,12 but I don't think any of them worked.
11:51:54 <shachaf> And I assume you have to get to 5,10 from the south.
11:54:55 <shachaf> There's an opening to the east of 8,9, isn't there.
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11:55:02 <shachaf> I got the star there but didn't notice it went on.
11:55:07 * int-e forgot how the coordinates go
11:56:05 <int-e> Oh I can infer that
12:02:22 <int-e> Hmm I don't remember the 4,11 star.
12:03:12 <int-e> I do remember the 4,12 one though, and I have a good idea what you're missing about it :P
12:03:16 <shachaf> I got the one on the right but not the one on the left.
12:03:51 <int-e> Oh okay that makes sense.
12:03:59 <shachaf> OK, for 4,12 you can either enter from the east, or from the west northern entrance half, or the west southern part.
12:04:19 <shachaf> Or maybe you can somehow enter with multiple cats from the west, though if that's possible I haven't figured out how.
12:04:58 <shachaf> If that's the case it'd be a 2,12 puzzle.
12:06:11 <shachaf> Or maybe you enter from the south, of course, and get the star that way.
12:06:19 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm missing something really obvious.
12:06:47 <int-e> It does sound like you have all the pieces.
12:10:20 <shachaf> There as one piece I hadn't figured out in 2,12.
12:11:14 <shachaf> Uh oh, extremely difficult puzzles.
12:11:29 <int-e> Well at least you didn't do what I did...
12:11:40 <int-e> ...pick up the star, rejoice, and reset the level
12:12:04 <int-e> (recall https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png)
12:12:19 <int-e> (this happens if you trust a map)
12:13:25 <shachaf> I had the enter-with-two-cats idea a while before, but I was silly enough that I didn't see how that would even help.
12:14:03 <int-e> I just saw that each of the neighbouring levels has a wide passage connecting them
12:14:28 <shachaf> Yep, that was my clue too.
12:14:39 <shachaf> This "extremely difficult" area sure seems tricky.
12:14:42 <int-e> So I just tried to make use of them to see what happens.
12:15:49 <int-e> (in the screenshot you can see that I was totally oblvious to the hidden rooms at that point)
12:16:32 <shachaf> I don't see anything that'd let you get past two spikes in 3,14, hmm.
12:18:02 <int-e> I don't really recall those levels. Which I guess means that yes, they were hard, but they had no proper aha moments.
12:19:51 <shachaf> I'm more curious about this mechanic I'm missing.
12:20:28 <int-e> I think you didn't miss it after all.
12:21:02 <int-e> (I meant that you can take multiple cats between levels.)
12:21:34 <shachaf> Then I'm curious about the door.
12:21:46 <int-e> I certainly missed that possibility.
12:22:05 <int-e> the door is in 7,8
12:23:03 <int-e> It's the one that needs 15 stars.
12:24:54 <shachaf> Oh, then I've seen it, I just don't have enough stars.
12:25:47 <shachaf> I kind of assumed the mechanic you meant would have to do with the room full of frozen cats.
12:25:52 <int-e> yeah, "missing" has too many meanings
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12:43:13 <b_jonas> "<<kmc> it does not parse as standard HTML5, I don't think" => yes, the difference is that in the XML version, you must write <img src="foo" /> whereas in HTML you should write <img src="foo"> without any slash or closing tag, but in practice that doesn't matter, you can just write the XML-like <img src="foo" />, the HTML standard considers it an error but also HTML reads it correctly so it will work
12:43:19 <b_jonas> everywhere, in any HTML or XHTML reader.
12:43:25 <b_jonas> is there a more serious problem than that?
12:49:28 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Well, according to this book, Boyer-Moore is slower and more complicated than its Horspool simplification." => which book?
12:55:01 <b_jonas> in other news, I can confirm that the shapez.io game is not only enjoyable in an addictive way, but it's also esoteric in the same way as OpenTTD is: the game gives you logic control primitives, and those are more than enoguh to win the game, but there are certain *interesting* things you want to do that are quite hard with the logic tools that are given, and you can find solutions for them that abuse
12:55:07 <b_jonas> those control primitives in weird combinations
12:55:21 <b_jonas> I can give more details if you want, but eventually they become spoilers
13:03:53 <fizzie> <img src="foo" /> is explicitly *not* an error in HTML5.
13:03:56 <fizzie> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#start-tags "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, or if the element is a foreign element, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS character (/). This character has no effect on void elements, but on foreign elements it marks the start tag as self-closing."
13:04:02 <fizzie> (`img` is a void element.)
13:07:33 <fizzie> An XML-style self-closing start tag would be invalid for a normal element, though, so <p /> and suchlike would be errors.
13:15:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, maybe it's only an error in HTML4
13:16:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: does that apply to other similar tags that can be empty, like input, link, meta, and some forms of script and style?
13:17:05 <fizzie> The void elements are: area, base, br, col, embed, hr, img, input, link, meta, param, source, track, wbr.
13:17:20 <b_jonas> sure, <p /> is always an error. you have to surround the paragraph with <p>..</p> in XML but that works fine in HTML, HTML just mostly ignores the </p> tags.
13:17:34 <fizzie> It does not apply to what HTML5 calls "raw text elements" (script, style).
13:18:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, so how do you write a script or style element when their content is empty because they take the script or style from an url specified as an attribute?
13:18:20 <fizzie> I think you still write <script src="..."></script>, even though it looks ugly.
13:18:26 <b_jonas> oh yeah, for style that doesn't exist
13:18:40 <b_jonas> it's <link rel="stylesheet" href="foo" type="text/css" />
13:19:05 <b_jonas> and script is weird for historical compatibility? ok.
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13:42:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EZ132 * New user account
13:49:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79994&oldid=79956 * EZ132 * (+179)
13:56:05 <esowiki> [[User:EZ132]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79995 * EZ132 * (+17) Created page with "Hello! I'm EZ132."
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15:23:58 <esowiki> [[HQ9+~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79997 * EZ132 * (+990) Created page with "'''HQ9+~''' is an extension of [[HQ9+-]] by [[User:EZ132]]. It is [[Turing-complete]] All valid HQ9+- programs are valid in HQ9+~, and will produce the same output. There are..."
15:25:53 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79998&oldid=79863 * EZ132 * (+12) /* Example-based languages */
15:26:09 <esowiki> [[HQ9+~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79999&oldid=79997 * EZ132 * (+1)
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15:51:25 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80004&oldid=77912 * EZ132 * (+61) /* See also */
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16:33:35 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80005&oldid=79993 * Digital Hunter * (+178) /* Three-param */
16:40:21 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80006&oldid=80005 * Digital Hunter * (+418) /* More on words */
16:41:11 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80007&oldid=80006 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Language overview */
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17:09:11 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80008&oldid=79949 * Shahryar * (+579) Added more info
17:11:50 <esowiki> [[Plutonium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80009&oldid=80008 * Shahryar * (+6)
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18:45:17 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80010&oldid=79790 * Digital Hunter * (-88) /* C */ This is not a language feature.
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19:32:39 <esowiki> [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80011 * Tetrapyronia * (+1501)
19:33:11 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80012&oldid=79907 * Tetrapyronia * (+46)
19:34:22 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80013&oldid=79906 * Tetrapyronia * (+320) added HQ99+LUFTBALLONS
19:34:53 <esowiki> [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80014&oldid=80011 * Tetrapyronia * (+5)
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19:41:22 <shachaf> b_jonas: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/flexible-pattern-matching-in-strings/D610D1F9C4744A864D73904B24EF602B
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20:27:59 <int-e> but it spends so much more space on regular expressions than flexible matching ;)
20:35:01 <shachaf> I've yet to read the regular expression part.
20:36:22 <shachaf> Though I like this trick for simulating an NFA for searching for a short string: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/search/shift-or.c
20:36:29 <shachaf> Maybe I already talked about that.
20:39:39 <fizzie> Just "maybe", eh? I think it's at least the third time now.
20:52:57 <shachaf> I remember I talked about string matching but not the details.
20:53:06 <shachaf> I didn't see the particular link in the logs.
20:53:33 <int-e> shachaf: you talked about it... I wanted to point out that this is a rather special kind of NFA
20:53:49 <shachaf> Oh, I remember this now, you're right.
20:53:55 <shachaf> It's indeed a special kind of NFA.
20:54:10 <shachaf> I don't think you can support .* with this trick, for instance.
20:54:28 <shachaf> Since all the transitions are forward (except for the initial one).
20:54:42 <int-e> the shift is for the forward transition, isn't it?
20:57:24 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe you could get it with extra tricks...
20:58:10 <shachaf> Also, someone pointed out that since shift distributes over or, you can do two or more transitions at once pretty easily
20:58:35 <shachaf> state = (state >> 2) | (table[text[i]] >> 1) | table[text[i+1]];
21:12:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80015&oldid=79966 * Quintopia * (+18) /* S */
21:13:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:TP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80016 * Expliked * (+235) Created page with "I actually don't think this counts as a "joke" language. I mean it ''is'' turing-complete and it looks fairly usable to me. I'm going to try to implement this because the orig..."
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22:02:08 <kspalaiologos> i think it broke: `Topic: Welcome to ContainersNet!`
22:09:42 <arseniiv> I am not entirely confident about the 0⁰ issue
22:10:14 <arseniiv> I solved all insecurities regarding all limit arguments
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22:31:47 <shachaf> OK, is there a nice way to implement: For each bit k in {a,b,c,...}, if k is set, also set bit k-1.
22:32:43 <shachaf> I guess you can just do an obvious thing there.
22:33:03 <shachaf> Like x | ((x & mask) << 1)
22:33:28 <shachaf> So that's not the question I really wanted.
22:35:27 <shachaf> But maybe the way you really want to handle glob patterns is to search for each substring independently.
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22:47:23 <fizzie> I just connected a smartphone to internet over wired Ethernet, and it feels weird.
22:48:19 <fizzie> (It's not a particularly great phone, especially at this point, and for whatever reason it's now refusing to connect over wifi, even after a reboot, with no sensible error messages.)
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01:12:24 <esowiki> [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80017&oldid=80014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+135) cats
01:13:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80018&oldid=80015 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* H */ Add [[HQ99+LUFTBALLONS]]
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01:41:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: how do you connect it?
01:41:37 <b_jonas> like what hardware enables that?
01:43:41 <fizzie> A micro-USB to USB type A "OTG" adapter + a USB Ethernet device.
01:45:03 <fizzie> I couldn't find any wired Ethernet settings anywhere (it's a Motorola device running Android 6.0), but it Just Worked anyway. There was even an icon I might not have seen before in the network connectivity area to indicate a wired Ethernet connection.
01:47:02 <fizzie> Other than the Ethernet device, I think the only USB peripherals I've used with a phone have been storage devices, a keyboard, and if I remember correctly a mouse once just to see what'd happen. (I think I got a pointer?)
01:47:50 <int-e> "on the go"... what a useless phrase
01:48:12 <int-e> what information is that conveying that justifies giving it a three letter acronym?
01:48:22 <int-e> what are the alternatives to "OTG" adapters?
01:50:02 <int-e> Oh it's a standard... but still a stupid name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go
01:55:47 <shachaf> int-e: Back to it again. The only star left on the map I see is at 5,10, which I assume you get to from the south.
01:56:56 <int-e> shachaf: How many stars do you have?
01:57:25 <int-e> Then go looking for hidden areas.
01:57:38 <fizzie> Yes, it's a specification, it has something to do with the way the phone switches from being a host and a peripheral.
01:58:08 <fizzie> I think the adapters are somewhat commonly called "OTG" adapters, though I'm not sure if they actually do anything specific.
01:58:28 <zzo38> I don't really like USB so much, though.
01:59:10 <int-e> shachaf: I can give you coordinates if you like
01:59:33 <shachaf> I think there's a hidden area to the east of 8,9, where I already got the star.
01:59:38 <kmc> yes, android will give you a mouse pointer if you connect a mouse by USB or Bluetooth
01:59:53 <int-e> shachaf: right, that's one of them
02:00:37 <shachaf> Other than that the map says you can go south in the near-ending room with the locked door to the north.
02:01:21 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah ignore those... you need to find 15 stars first
02:01:29 <esowiki> [[SPREADSHEET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80019&oldid=79991 * Quintopia * (+7) author
02:01:50 <shachaf> OK. So there's that and there's the place marked as "extremely difficult".
02:02:03 <shachaf> I assume each of them has one star.
02:02:54 <int-e> I thought the "extemely difficult" was the area starting at 4,13?
02:02:59 <fizzie> I've got one of those Logitech wireless mice (gave up after a long fight) with three "channels", and I'm only using two of them (via the proprietary receivers). Maybe I should pair the third one with a phone just in case I'm at my desk and holding the phone, and there's a task where a mouse would be better than a finger.
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02:04:06 <int-e> shachaf: well those are both in the same L-shaped area
02:04:15 <kmc> I have done phone-as-USB-host with input devices (keyboard and mouse), storage (USB stick, SD reader) and a second phone (this is part of the migration process for the Pixel 3a, my current phone)
02:04:19 <int-e> and you're done there if you've found the goat
02:04:30 <int-e> which I assume you have
02:04:41 <kmc> it actually ships with a USB-C-plug to USB-A-socket adapter so you can plug your old phone into the new one
02:05:40 <kmc> another use case which I haven't tried yet, but I intend to try and is known to work, is plugging a USB microscope into the phone
02:05:41 <int-e> I knew phones (tablets too) have this dual role capability; I just never encountered the name of that standard, somehow.
02:06:46 <shachaf> But I just figured out what the trick must be.
02:08:03 <shachaf> To the first room, I mean.
02:08:54 <int-e> "Oh" was for not having the goat. Which means you have a visible non-wall on the map
02:09:21 <int-e> Which is unlike my https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png where the map didn't help my progress at all.
02:10:01 <shachaf> I hope it's more of a non-visible non-wall.
02:11:13 <fizzie> Oh, right, I didn't think of the migration, I've of course done that too.
02:12:39 <int-e> shachaf: Oh well, heading out for a walk... you can check https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png to see which areas you're missing (so that screenshot is a bit of a spoiler).
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02:49:08 <esowiki> [[Hat Trick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80020 * Quintopia * (+5878) created page
02:49:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80021&oldid=80018 * Quintopia * (+16) /* H */
02:58:02 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80022&oldid=77735 * Quintopia * (+411) Categories and infobox
02:58:30 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80023&oldid=80022 * Quintopia * (+0) filename ending
02:59:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80024&oldid=80021 * Quintopia * (+13) /* T */
03:10:19 <esowiki> [[Hat Trick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80025&oldid=80020 * Quintopia * (+0) typo
03:17:30 <int-e> fungot: why do people need sleep?
03:17:30 <fungot> int-e: b/ c the ppl giving them actually knew science which is an odd beast. it wants to
03:18:34 <fizzie> Science: it's an odd beast.
03:47:22 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> I couldn't find any wired Ethernet settings anywhere" => must be Android
03:50:00 <b_jonas> "<int-e> I knew phones (tablets too) have this dual role capability" => that's because typing without a keyboard sucks, so they have to allow plugging in a keyboard.
03:53:11 <shachaf> I think they often use wireless keyboards instead.
03:53:46 <shachaf> My guess would be that most people who use tablets with keyboards use either a special tablet-specific connection or Bluetooth.
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04:00:01 <fizzie> I used to have this great little Microsoft Bluetooth "travel" keyboard, but I forgot the (just regular non-rechargeable AAA) batteries in it, and they leaked so badly it was just a lost cause. :/
04:00:47 <fizzie> The "Wedge Mobile Keyboard".
04:03:12 <kmc> yeah I have a bad habit of forgetting about batteries
04:03:24 <kmc> leading primary cells to leak, or rechargables to run down to the point where they're permanently damaged
04:03:31 <kmc> it's kind of an ongoing source of guilt in my life
04:04:02 <kmc> I even have a recurring calendar reminder to "check on all the batteries" but of course it's pretty broad in scope and i don't do it consistently, although there are a few things I rely on for emergency preparedness that I do check at least
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05:08:49 <zzo38> The index for the Fifth Edition rules of Magic: the Gathering contains a loop.
05:20:50 <kmc> zzo38: on purpose?
05:51:53 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80026&oldid=79867 * Quintopia * (+68) more python interps
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06:27:44 <esowiki> [[D1ffe7e45e]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80027&oldid=70748 * Quintopia * (+113) /* Examples */
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10:00:34 <kspalaiologos> the other logger _still_ seems to be connected, even though i even restarted my server and cleared crontab
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10:37:46 <kspalaiologos> i'm wondering if it's just a permission problem or something
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10:47:07 <kspalaiologos> ok, sorry for the spam but i think the problem is solved now
10:47:36 <kspalaiologos> my hosting provider did a thing and i'm now waiting for the support response, in the meantime i moved all of my stuff to a box my friend gave me temporarily
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11:18:10 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80028 * RocketRace * (+1983)
11:18:38 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80029&oldid=80028 * RocketRace * (+23)
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11:26:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80030&oldid=80024 * RocketRace * (+11)
11:26:57 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80031&oldid=80029 * RocketRace * (-4)
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12:27:12 <nakilon> the last one does not show up for me: https://i.imgur.com/5mM6zAX.png
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13:15:01 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80032&oldid=80031 * RocketRace * (+0) 2021
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14:24:24 <fizzie> Yeah, the wiki-IRC bridge rather arbitrarily filters non-printable-ASCII bytes.
14:24:49 <fizzie> I have the last one, but not the first one. That's emoji for you, I guess.
14:25:32 <fizzie> (The last one is U+1FAC2 PEOPLE HUGGING.)
14:28:54 <esowiki> [[PUSH++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80033&oldid=79913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Stub/WIP, cat
14:30:32 <nakilon> Windows has a problem with the same one: https://imgur.com/nFWCQO8
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14:32:00 <fizzie> It's moderately new (from Unicode 13.0).
14:33:47 <fizzie> Debian, though that really means it's more to do with fonts/browsers in this case rather than the OS. I was looking at it in Chrome; in Firefox I've got all of them.
14:35:00 <fizzie> Not sure how Chrome manages to not render U+1F97A FACE WITH PLEADING EYES (the first one).
14:35:17 <fizzie> But also not interested enough to start figuring that out.
14:35:57 <nakilon> they are absolutely the same in Terminal for me: https://i.imgur.com/BlwwclW.png
14:38:24 <nakilon> only the broken one is different in other browsers: FF: https://i.imgur.com/fF4Lhpk.png Safari: https://i.imgur.com/zQU3LTj.png
14:40:03 <nakilon> I suppose one of your browsers relies on OS and another one somehow supplies own Unicode characters; or both rely on OS but Chrome is somehow broken
14:42:07 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80034&oldid=80023 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) /* Examples */ Add examples (HW, Truth-machine, cat)
14:45:59 <fizzie> If I had to guess, I'd say Firefox has bundled in some amount of its own emoji support.
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17:31:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wallacedutra * New user account
18:00:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80035&oldid=79994 * Wallacedutra * (+206) /* Introductions */
18:02:02 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80036 * Wallacedutra * (+122) Created page with " is a joke language but not. Hello World! 420 / !"
18:03:43 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80037&oldid=79998 * Wallacedutra * (+121) /* General languages */
18:06:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80038&oldid=80035 * Wallacedutra * (+11) /* Introductions */
18:13:33 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80039&oldid=80036 * Wallacedutra * (+373)
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18:32:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cxarli * New user account
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18:36:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80040&oldid=80038 * Cxarli * (+210) introduced self
18:37:18 <esowiki> [[Glass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80041&oldid=61019 * Cxarli * (-5) update github username
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18:45:26 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80042&oldid=80039 * Wallacedutra * (+360)
18:47:51 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80043&oldid=80042 * Wallacedutra * (+39)
18:51:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80044&oldid=80040 * Wallacedutra * (+100) /* Introductions */
19:06:54 <esowiki> [[User:Cxarli]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80045 * Cxarli * (+64) Created page with "Welcome to my profile page. I don't really have anything to say."
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19:07:23 <esowiki> [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80046&oldid=78586 * Cxarli * (-40) /* Interpreters */ update github username
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22:10:09 <b_jonas> I wish the bot replaced non-ascii character with a question mark or dot instead of straight up stripping them
22:10:27 <b_jonas> or replace them with something else, like a bang or tilde
22:20:49 <fizzie> Or U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER, maybe. It's in the name.
22:20:54 <fizzie> But yeah, it probably should.
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00:25:38 <b_jonas> it's just a small thing. it doesn't really matter, since there's an URL included.
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02:09:41 <HackEso> 5585:2015-06-16 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'1N;s/\\n/ /\' wisdom/wise \ 5580:2015-06-15 <int-̈e> ` echo It\\\'s neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. >> wisdom/wise \ 5579:2015-06-15 <shachäf> le/rn wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise.
02:10:02 <shachaf> Man, I'd really like to delete that, but now it's not only my call.
02:27:08 <fizzie> Heh, recognized it, did you? I've always found it somehow charming.
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03:58:32 <Arcorann> Maybe something involving widdershins
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05:24:47 <ais523> does anyone here have experience with using dynamic loaders on Linux x86-64 other than ld-linux.so?
05:25:13 <ais523> I'm guessing not, but was idly wondering how difficult it is to use a custom dynamic loader (possibly along with a custom ABI)
05:31:25 <ais523> part of the reason I asked is that I'm getting fed up of all the overhead caused by the use of a fixed ABI, and think it might be interesting to write a programming language implementation where each function has its own ABI
05:32:33 <ais523> e.g. if function f calls function g, ideally you'd want f and g to use different registers for their arguments (and f's argument registers to be preserved by g) so that you wouldn't need to spill %edi
05:33:32 <zzo38> I have not have experience with using other dynamic loaders, but I do like the idea that each function can have its own ABI, and I had a similar idea than what you mention actually.
05:34:23 <zzo38> Although, my idea was to add a special calling convention into LLVM to denote this.
05:37:23 <zzo38> However, if you are not intending to write a portable program (or if you are writing the program for a portable VM), then you can just write it by yourself anyways.
05:40:06 <ais523> although my idea was to get the compiler to work out a suitable ABI for each function, rather than doing it by hand
05:40:30 <ais523> that way, the compiler input can be portable
05:40:43 <ais523> but, interoperating with code that uses more standard ABIs will be difficult
05:41:12 <ais523> you could do it by generating wrapper functions that converted the ABI (also, it only matters if you want to pass a function pointer as an argument to a standard library function)
05:41:15 <zzo38> Yes, having the compiler work it out automatically is what was my idea with adding a special calling convention into LLVM.
05:41:31 <zzo38> (Although you cannot take the address of such functions)
05:42:00 <shachaf> ais523: I wanted to have a language where there was a partial order between calling conventions based on saving extra registers.
05:42:03 <zzo38> Have you read the LLVM documentation?
05:42:04 <ais523> another idea I had was to make code/function pointers 32 bits long, but data pointers 64 bits long
05:42:13 <ais523> zzo38: I have read some of it, but not all of it
05:42:47 <ais523> shachaf: yes, that would make sense
05:42:57 <shachaf> So you could use a function that doesn't clobber as many registers as an unknown function pointer, but at a specific call site you'd have more information.
05:43:01 <ais523> although I think that if you're varying calling conventions, it makes sense to go all the way and vary which arguments are used, too
05:43:11 <ais523> in order to save on renaming of registers
05:43:38 <ais523> oh, another thing that I really really hate is the 16-byte stack alignment in the x86-64 ABI
05:43:40 <shachaf> You mean renaming as in generating code to shuffle them, not the thing the CPU does, I guess?
05:43:49 <ais523> it is optimising for a rare case at the expense of the common case
05:44:19 <shachaf> Do modern CPUs care about alignment for anything? It's not clear to me whether they do.
05:44:31 <ais523> it can have extreme performance impacts sometimes
05:44:48 <zzo38> I know some instruction sets care about alignment and some don't
05:45:02 <ais523> I'm currently debugging something that looks a lot like a performance bug in the processor, it's a very tight loop that speeds up if you add a memory read instruction to it
05:45:03 <shachaf> Yes, x86 has some SIMD instructions with aligned/unaligned variants.
05:45:28 <ais523> but the reason I found this in the first place was that the loop was very alignment-sensitive, varying between about 6 and 11 seconds based on what alignment it was at
05:45:53 <shachaf> Why do you care about the dynamic loader for this?
05:45:59 <zzo38> (For example, in MMIX, all instructions and data are aligned; if you specify an address which is not aligned, the low bits of the address are ignored)
05:46:01 <ais523> and I think that if it happened to hit a "bad" alignment, it had a similar effect to the memory read, making the loop go fast
05:46:06 <shachaf> Are you doing dynamic linking and also caring about these things this much?
05:46:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I thought the same, how is it relevant to dynamic loading?
05:46:46 <ais523> shachaf: mostly out of curiosity, I realised that the existing dynamic linker wouldn't like a system where the calling conventions were different; also, because I'm thinking about what would be required to make drastic changes to a process's memory layout
05:46:48 <zzo38> I should think that automatically making up their own calling conventions will not work at all if the function is to be called dynamically.
05:47:08 <ais523> also because replacing the dynamic linker seems like the easiest way to control what `exec` does to a program
05:47:27 <shachaf> Well, I'd probably sooner disable the dynamic linker and statically link the programs that matter.
05:47:58 <ais523> is it even possible to have a program that doesn't use the dynamic linker at all? if so, what controls its memory layout?
05:48:12 <ais523> presumably the kernel has an appropriate loader available
05:48:21 <shachaf> The kernel loads it according to ELF directives.
05:48:35 <shachaf> But it can do whatever it wants after that.
05:48:47 <zzo38> (Although, it should work if only the same program that defines the function calls it, then it will work without dynamic calling, even if other functions are called dynamically I would think, although entries into your program also need to use standard calling conventions, even if the other functions only used internally can use your own kinds)
05:50:08 <ais523> I'm mildly irritated at modern gcc putting `endbr64` instructions at the start of every externallly function, just in case someone decides to take their address
05:50:38 <ais523> which removes half the security value of that, and also blows up the binary size and instruction decode pipeline
05:50:50 <shachaf> Well, ideally not many functions are extern.
05:51:06 <zzo38> What does "endbr64" instruction mean?
05:51:24 <shachaf> It means that indirect branches to that address are allowed.
05:51:37 <shachaf> If you enable a security option then branches to any other instruction will trap.
05:51:37 <ais523> it's a NOP, but Intel is developing processors which don't allow indirect branches/calls to anything other than an endbr64 instruciton
05:51:52 <shachaf> Or maybe that option isn't available yet, I don't know.
05:52:04 <ais523> it doesn't exist on my processor, at least
05:52:42 <ais523> anyway, the security gain of this seems to be largest if endbr64 instructions are confined to locations where they're actually necessary (it's rare to take the address of a function)
05:53:05 <shachaf> But if the function is extern and you're doing separate compilation, there's no way to know.
05:53:18 <shachaf> Unless you add an annotation for a function you're allowed to take the address of.
05:53:33 <ais523> I'm disappointed that C wasn't created with such an annotation
05:53:49 <shachaf> Mostly I try to put as much as possible into a single translation unit, which also lets you make things static.
05:54:02 <shachaf> But there are many annotations that we wish C had.
05:54:04 <zzo38> Maybe they should allow removing the "endbr64" instruction by writing "register" in the definition of the function, since the "register" command in C means that you are not allowed to take the address of it.
05:54:41 <ais523> amusingly, I had exactly the same idea
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05:55:02 <ais523> shachaf: the problem with large translation units is that it increases the amount you have to recompile upon making a change to the program
05:55:13 <zzo38> Of course that won't work with dynamic linking, but if it is used with static linking then it would work.
05:55:24 <ais523> also, you need sufficiently many translation units to keep all the CPU cores busy in a parallel build
05:55:39 <shachaf> Yes, but compilers should preferably be very fast.
05:55:49 <ais523> zzo38: it could work with dynamic linking; it's very common nowadays to use a configuration in which most functions are marked as not dynamically linkable
05:56:49 <ais523> I think every dynamic library I've worked on in the last >10 years has used a configuration in which functions are not dynamically linkable as default, but a macro is available to specify that a specific function is dynamically linkable
05:57:16 <shachaf> Dynamic linking should be treated as a rare, special-case thing anyway.
05:57:19 <ais523> that way, you can write the library in multiple translation units, but avoid polluting the namespace of a user of your library with your internal non-`static` functions
05:57:20 <shachaf> Most libraries should be static.
05:57:57 <ais523> I can see the argument for a library that's shared between most of the processes on the system being dynamically linked by them, in order to save physical memory
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05:58:25 <ais523> (although this requires that the various copies of it mapped into the various processes that use it are byte-for-byte identical)
05:58:33 <shachaf> I think that argument is not that relevant nowadays.
05:59:25 <shachaf> But the few libraries that are really shared among all processes probably do count as special-case, anyway.
05:59:28 <ais523> the other advantage of dynamic libraries is that you can update them without recompiling the programs that depend on them
05:59:49 <ais523> hmm, libm is still separate from libc for some reason, isn't it?
06:00:26 <ais523> those three are universal enough that merging them would make sense
06:02:04 <shachaf> I think that advantage is weak and the disadvantages outweigh it.
06:02:26 <shachaf> But you could also allow static libraries to be relinked in the same executable.
06:03:53 <shachaf> Agner Fog's https://forwardcom.info/ works that way, I think.
06:04:58 <zzo38> Many programs don't use threads
06:05:29 <ais523> even so, the standard library normally has to at least be *aware* of threads
06:05:44 <ais523> to implement things like `errno` and even `malloc`
06:06:21 <ais523> also I discovered that writing an async-signal-safe `malloc` is harder than it seems
06:06:43 <ais523> if you don't have software transactional memory, you need some way to do an atomic double store of a pointer and the current thread ID
06:06:52 <ais523> (luckily, doing it to consecutive addresses is sufficient)
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10:16:30 <b_jonas> "<ais523> ... I'm getting fed up of all the overhead caused by the use of a fixed ABI" => the usual solution to that is that the optimizer can use a different ABI for functions within a compilation unit, while keeping the usual ABI between compilation units. And when you want such optimization between compilation units, then you artificially export some part of the functions to the calling compilation
10:16:37 <b_jonas> units using C99 inline functions, C++ templates, or rust inline functions.
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10:19:43 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Do modern CPUs care about alignment for anything?" => yes in the sense of performance. the only common case when it causes slowdowns is when you access data that crosses the boundary of 64-bit pages, but if you don't align your data then you will have such cases. also some SSE instructions (but not AVX ones) do require 16 byte alignment and fault if they don't get it.
10:20:20 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Yes, x86 has some SIMD instructions with aligned/unaligned variants." => that doesn't apply to modern CPUs though, those instructions are treated the same now
10:22:10 <b_jonas> "<ais523> is it even possible to have a program that doesn't use the dynamic linker at all?" => in theory yes; in practice there are parts of libc that you can't use without, and it's very hard to get rid of libc in big practical programs in practice, the whole infrastructure is built around it.
10:22:46 <b_jonas> the kernel mostly supports that because it has to load the dynamic linker somehow, and loading that is the same ELF loading process as loading a program without a dynamic linker.
10:25:15 <b_jonas> “<zzo38> Maybe they should allow removing the "endbr64" instruction by writing "register" in the definition of the function” => I think that might conflict with some modern C++ modules nonsense thing that reuses the register keyword, I'm not sure
10:25:29 <b_jonas> you'd have to check before you use it
10:26:29 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, crossing page boundaries (or cache line boundaries) certainly can have real effects. I meant things like unaligned loads within a cache line.
10:27:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I can see the argument for a library that's shared between most of the processes on the system being dynamically linked by them, in order to save physical memory / (although this requires that the various copies of it mapped into the various processes that use it are byte-for-byte identical)" => that is what actually happens these days, at least on x86_64 which has PC-relative instructions and
10:27:45 <b_jonas> enough registers and so supports efficient position-independent code and can load the same code segments to different addresses in different processes effectively.
10:27:50 <b_jonas> (I think it still happens on x86, but with more overhead.)
10:28:41 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I think that argument is not that relevant nowadays." => I think it's still relevant, at least in some workloads like browsers or JVM or similar that have dozens of threads or processes with the same huge set of libraries in them
10:29:21 <b_jonas> "<ais523> hmm, libm is still separate from libc for some reason, isn't it?" => I think on x86_64 it's not, and libm is an empty library that's present only for compatibility there
10:30:12 <b_jonas> libpthread might be separate, I'm not sure, but parts of libc only work if you tell it at compile time with a macro that the process uses pthreads, which the shorthand -pthreads option to gcc does.
10:30:49 <b_jonas> or maybe libm is empty on later versions of libc and this has nothing to do with x86_64? I don't know
10:32:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: modern cpus don't currently mind unaligned loads or stores within a cache line, except for those SSE instructions that can raise a fault (depending on some process-global mode bit I think)
10:33:17 <b_jonas> plus there's some magic about alignment modulo 16 bytes that matters for code performance, namely for the decoder and for some of the jump prediction
10:33:30 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure of the details
10:36:01 <b_jonas> I for one think it's generally a good idea to keep every data naturally aligned, except in those cases when you really can't because you need shifts such as for pixel buffer operations, and in those cases try to keep writes aligned. it's a guideline that makes it easy to avoid access crossing cache line boundaries, and it's generally easier to keep in a complicated program across functions than directly
10:36:07 <b_jonas> figuring out what crosses page boundaries when your data may be allocated by some other function.
10:37:37 <b_jonas> as for ais523's original problem, the 16 byte vs 8 byte stack alignment, I'm not quite sure
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11:14:36 <b_jonas> can it cause problems (with any compiler or tools) to have C or C++ header files that only have comments, nothing else?
11:15:08 <b_jonas> I don't think it can, but if it can, then I'll include some dummy declaration.
11:29:16 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80054&oldid=79262 * Supyovalk * (+30) added compute
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16:55:31 <esowiki> [[Blub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80056&oldid=77815 * Jb * (+1374) added loop example
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21:25:55 <zzo38> Glulx has malloc, free, and sbrk, but not realloc.
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21:51:08 <zzo38> Do you know if GCC or LLVM can target any instruction set where the stack has a separate address space which you cannot access?
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00:06:55 <Laclale> Hello, I found unlisted EsoLang from MIT Mystery Hunt!
00:07:36 <Laclale> http://web.mit.edu/puzzle/www/2014/puzzle-solution/callooh_callay_world/
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00:45:39 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80061 * Zero player rodent * (+163) Created page with "Hello, I am '''Zero player rodent'''. I like esoteric programming languages. [https://siddikinz-zone.neocities.org/programming.html Here are some of my programs.]"
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01:22:58 <b_jonas> Laclale: great. edit information about it to the wiki.
01:41:28 <noomy> working with my Parallax Propeller 2 is so far proving fun. but the unofficial LLVM port someone made is in a... questionable state
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04:10:36 <zzo38> I should add the possibility that a picture can be defined as a copy of another picture, but optionally rotated/flipped and optionally replacing some colours with others. However, mainly my difficulty is, what is it called?
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05:20:25 <int-e> Is there an optimized shell tool doing sort -n | tail -n <NNN>?
05:20:49 <int-e> (without sorting the whole input. just curious, I have no urgent need for this.)
05:21:36 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
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12:26:29 <nakilon> how do you imagine getting the tail without sorting the whole input?
12:29:08 <nakilon> ah, you probably mean to get the Nth maximal value first somehow
12:36:56 <fizzie> It's called partial sorting, and you can definitely do it in O(n + k log k), which can easily be an improvement in practice over O(n log n) for small enough k.
12:38:31 <fizzie> Or something along those lines, anyway, exact complexity left as an exercise for the reader, the point was just that only requiring the first k items does make sorting less expensive.
12:41:20 <int-e> fizzie: Sure, but the question was whether there's a tool that does it.
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12:41:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know of one. It does come up with a lot, I guess it's just that usually in a context where it's not infeasible to do the full sort.
12:42:57 <int-e> And I was looking for O(n log k) but O(k) memory. (Or can you do O(n + k log k) in that case as well? I should figure that out.)
12:43:26 <int-e> And yeah, my file was certainly small enough to sort completely.
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12:45:25 <int-e> (O(k) memory in a streaming scenario, as part of a pipe)
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13:13:32 <fizzie> Right, it's definitely not obvious whether you can do O(n + k log k) time with O(k) memory in a streaming setup. I was thinking of the partial quicksort there, if it wasn't guessable, but that would presumably involve O(n) memory. The k-sized heap's O(n log k) with O(k) memory, I guess.
13:15:25 <fizzie> I feel like I do `... | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head -n 10` a lot too.
13:16:15 <int-e> You can also sort chunks of length k and merge and discard the bottom half... which might beat the heap if you already have super-optimized sorting routine.
13:17:03 <int-e> yeah I do that sort (hah) of stuff a lot as well
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13:18:27 <int-e> Though if you involve sort | uniq -c it's unclear how much you gain by reducing memory usage of the rest of the pipe. It couldn't hurt, of course.
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13:57:53 <esowiki> [[Ases]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80062&oldid=68910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Cats, comp. class
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14:16:33 <rain1> I feel like I never heard of partial sorting before! that's interesting
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15:33:58 <Taneb> Do you think we can make "natural domain" a thing for integral domains but without additive inverses
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15:35:15 <Taneb> (so ring : integral domain :: semiring/rig : natural domain)
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16:05:02 <b_jonas> "<int-e> Is there an optimized shell tool doing sort -n | tail -n <NNN>?" => I wrote one of that once, but it was more than 10 years ago so the coding style is terrible. I'd rather write a new one than use it. And it looks like there's no doc of what format it wants either. https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=333850 and https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=515032
16:08:08 <b_jonas> Sometimes I just do an optimization like (du -a pathname | grep -E "^[0-9]{7}" | sort -n)
16:09:07 <b_jonas> rain1: if you want to read about it, read in either Knuth's TAOCP volume 3, or the Cormen–Leiserson–Rivest–Stein Algorithms book.
16:09:54 <b_jonas> this applies both for partial sorting, and for the here more relevant algorithms to get the top items of a long external list in one pass with limited memory
16:10:48 <b_jonas> "<int-e> Though if you involve sort | uniq -c it's unclear how much you gain by reducing memory usage of the rest of the pipe." => yeah, I usually do this on du, including on some directories with lots of descendants
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17:40:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80063&oldid=80059 * Pen Island * (+207) /* Introductions */
17:42:53 <esowiki> [[User:Pen Island]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80064 * Pen Island * (+2) i say hi and thats it
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18:55:18 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80065 * Pen Island * (+4464) I talk about this atrocity i've made, the documentation, and a few examples on how to code in it (Implemented)!
18:57:06 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80066&oldid=80065 * Pen Island * (+24)
18:58:34 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80067&oldid=80066 * Pen Island * (+23)
18:59:50 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80068&oldid=80067 * Pen Island * (+6) correction time
19:04:19 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80069&oldid=80068 * Pen Island * (+28) added category
19:05:05 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80070&oldid=80069 * Pen Island * (+0) oops
19:14:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80071&oldid=80053 * Pen Island * (+17)
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19:16:10 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80072&oldid=80070 * Pen Island * (+24) added implemented
19:19:28 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80073&oldid=80072 * Pen Island * (+49) /* Interpreter */
19:24:25 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80074&oldid=80073 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Indexes */ Correct sentence (to my understanding)
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20:47:17 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80075&oldid=80074 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+559) /* How2Code */ Add examples
20:47:30 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80076&oldid=80075 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Indexes */ Why this was reverted?
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23:33:57 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80077&oldid=80076 * Pen Island * (+1) index in the jump_equal instruction (truth machine) was wrong (tested in interpreter)
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23:44:47 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80078&oldid=80077 * Pen Island * (-29) cat program was completely broken (also tested in interpreter)
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00:08:25 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80079&oldid=80078 * Pen Island * (+228) added new instruction into interpreter and documentation, also updated the cat program further simplyfing it!
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00:51:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80080 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+219) /* Source request */ new section
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01:08:51 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80081&oldid=80079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Cat program */ Should work now (should halt on null char)
01:57:19 <esowiki> [[I don't care about esolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80082 * Quintopia * (+280) parking this name
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03:08:32 <ais523> shachaf: I was reading about the reasons people use shared rather than statically linked libraries, and the most compelling reason seems to be "you want to link code written in a compiled language together with code written in an interpreted language"
03:08:56 <ais523> that way, the interpreter can load the shared library at runtime, without needing to change the interpreter executable
03:09:12 <ais523> however, it strikes me that there's quite a difference between dlopen() … dlsym() … call via function pointer
03:09:24 <ais523> and having ld.so do relocations
03:09:39 <shachaf> Hmm, language implementation details don't seem to be that compelling.
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03:10:23 <shachaf> I guess the thing here is that you need to do relocations on the .a to be able to use it.
03:10:39 <shachaf> Whereas the .so mostly just works as-is, and you just need some runtime relocations?
03:11:00 <ais523> so I think my current view is along the lines of "shared libraries don't seem all that useful when it comes to making hardcoded function calls directly to functions in them, but loading a library and extracting function pointers from it at runtime may still be a useful operation"
03:11:03 <ais523> Perl actually allows you to link to code in static libraries, but it requires recompiling the perl(1) executable
03:11:49 <ais523> there are lots of similarities between .so and .a, the only real difference is when the relocations happen
03:11:51 <shachaf> Many libraries require you to use dlopen/dlsym (or an equivalent) for regular use.
03:12:21 <ais523> I'm surprised at that; most of the best-known shared libraries (libc, libm, libz, libpng, etc.) are designed to be linked against directly
03:12:25 <shachaf> Anyway, I think that whatever language your program is written in, you should be able to make a self-contained executable that works with minimal system dependencies.
03:12:32 <ais523> you *could* dlopen/dlsym them but it would be a weird thing todo
03:12:33 <shachaf> I'm thinking of things like OpenGL.
03:13:02 <ais523> well, thinking about it one way, most executables are specific to a particular operating system
03:13:11 <ais523> but with shared libraries, there's no real reason that has to be the case
03:13:31 <ais523> I can easily imagine a dynamically linked executable that works on both Linux and BSD via dynamically linking to different libcs
03:14:13 <ais523> but, that isn't a very popular thing to do (to the extent that the more common portability solution is for the OS to have a mechanism to change its system call interface to mimic another OS's, asking userspace for help when it sees a system call it doesn't understand
03:14:43 <ais523> graphics libraries strike me as something that might quite plausibly vary between computeres
03:14:55 <shachaf> Linux and BSD are very similar. It seems trickier with Windows, for instance.
03:15:13 <ais523> like, does it make sense for every program to have statically linked-in functions for talking to ATI, NVidia, Intel, etc. graphics cards? what if a new one is released
03:15:14 <shachaf> Broadly I agree that the core of your program should be platform-independent.
03:15:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I think the situation with OpenGL etc. is pretty bad, though.
03:15:41 <shachaf> Where in theory it's portable, but in practice you run into vendor-specific issues anyway.
03:15:56 <shachaf> And on top of that, there are more graphics libraries that you need to support than actual vendors of graphics cards.
03:16:10 <shachaf> At least Direct3D, Metal, Vulkan, OpenGL (ES).
03:16:14 <ais523> the Linux console recently added support designed to make Wine and friends more efficient; it works via having two programs mapped into the same address space, the program you're running and a system call emulator
03:16:43 <ais523> if it sees a system call from the program, it just bounces it to the system call emulator and lets it take care of it, if it gets a system call from the emulator then it handles it as normal
03:16:56 <ais523> err, Linux the kernel, not the console
03:17:36 <shachaf> This sounds a lot like having the emulator attached as a debugger.
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03:18:59 <shachaf> But why is this necessary for WINE? Windows doesn't have a system call interface.
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03:19:11 <ais523> <ais523> it's a lot more efficient than ptrace, and more efficient than seccomp
03:19:27 <ais523> and Windows does have a system call interface internally, it's just hidden from the user
03:19:50 <ais523> and not documented I think
03:20:04 <shachaf> Aha, is this https://lwn.net/Articles/824380/ ?
03:20:14 <shachaf> It says "Windows applications are increasingly executing system calls directly rather than going through the API".
03:20:28 <ais523> it could be; I noticed this in the Linux source documentation
03:20:53 <ais523> but yes, that article seems to be describing the same mechanism
03:21:16 <shachaf> I see. So they don't go through PTRACE_SYSEMU for most system calls, only for system calls that are executed directly by the application.
03:21:49 <shachaf> So depending on which part of memory the syscall instruction is in, it's either handled by a SYSEMU-like mechanism or is just hanled directly.
03:22:04 <ais523> ah right, it seems to be describing an older version of the same mechanism
03:22:14 <ais523> the spec changed a bit since that was written
03:23:12 <ais523> I'm trying to remember
03:24:47 <ais523> guess I'll go read the docs again, they take a while to decompress though
03:25:16 <shachaf> I'm searching the Linux and WINE source for relevant strings and not finding them.
03:26:17 <ais523> hmm, I can't find it there either
03:26:27 <ais523> now I'm really confused, because I must have read this somewhere or else I wouldn't know about it
03:26:45 <ais523> it isn't in man prctl or man mmap
03:27:13 <int-e> shachaf: Oh n-step Steve got an update so that you can actually trust the map after you have all the kittens
03:27:30 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no, I'd better get back to that.
03:27:42 <ais523> maybe it's in a newer version of the Linux sources than I happen to have handy
03:27:47 <shachaf> Apparently I have 14 stars.
03:28:13 <shachaf> So I just need to get east of 8,9.
03:28:39 <shachaf> I have three solutions for getting the flag far enough for the stars, but none of them to get to the next room.
03:32:48 <shachaf> Everything I do is off by 1.
03:38:39 <shachaf> They end with the accessible 8-flag either where it is, or two squares north, or one square south.
03:38:55 <shachaf> If I could end with it one square north, it seems easy.
03:39:30 <shachaf> But to do that I'd have to do something like push the 7-flag left.
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03:51:44 <shachaf> The main problem is that when I run this for a while, it spins my fans up and gets slow and unpleasant.
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04:02:09 <shachaf> ais523: I found it: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/admin-guide/syscall-user-dispatch.rst
04:02:12 <int-e> shachaf: Oh, I figured it out again.
04:04:17 <shachaf> My guess is I'm not on quite the right track.
04:05:35 <int-e> there's some pretty intricate parity hacking in this one
04:05:59 <ais523> shachaf: aha, that file isn't in my Linux source, so it must just be too new
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04:23:12 <shachaf> Oh, if I'd looked a little more, I'd've found https://lwn.net/Articles/826313/ on LWN.
04:39:19 <int-e> shachaf: if you want to reduce the search space, this is a viable start: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty3.png obviously this is a spoiler, even though what remains to be done is still a challenge, I believe.
04:44:05 <shachaf> I've certainly been in that state many times.
04:44:46 <int-e> yeah that's expected
04:45:06 <int-e> I mean I kept comping back to it because it felt like the most promising one.
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05:05:59 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right! you need tricks to deliver syscalls that way now, because x86 has two generations of new system call instructions, rather than just the old 286 interrupt gate mechanism. if we still had the old mechanism, this would be trivial, because DOS, Win32, and Linux syscalls just used different interrupt numbers.
05:06:54 <int-e> two, oh, syscall and sysenter, in some order
05:08:22 <shachaf> b_jonas: Well, you'd need some kernel support regardless.
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05:08:38 <shachaf> int-e: I don't think anyone uses sysenter these days.
05:08:47 <shachaf> I'm not sure any amd64 CPU ever used it?
05:10:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, but we already have kernel support that lets it forward interrupts originating in userspace to userspace, not only for real mode DOS emulation, but also for division by zero and floating point interrupts and a few other such weird things. they're not used often, but they exist.
05:11:10 <b_jonas> even the breakpoint interrupt is handled that way: the kernel just sends a signal to the process, filling out the siginfo struct, and if the debugger wishes, it catches that signal with ptrace.
05:11:44 <int-e> shachaf: https://wiki.osdev.org/Sysenter#Compatibility_across_Intel_and_AMD ...funny :)
05:11:46 <shachaf> But you don't have a guarantee that no other system uses int $0x80
05:13:02 <b_jonas> whereas for system calls, the kernel actually has to distinguish between the three Linux syscall layers: 64-bit, x32 (deprecated, distinguished by a bit in the syscall number), 32-bit (distinguished by the userspace running 32-bit code); and I think BSD distinguishes between BSD syscalls and emulated Linux syscalls, though maybe those are the same syscalls with just a process-global setting or something
05:14:23 <b_jonas> "But you don't have a guarantee that no other system uses int $0x80" => real mode programs use it, sure, but emulating real mode programs needs a lot of custom support, both from the kernel side and from the userspace.
05:14:48 <b_jonas> but there aren't many protected mode supervisors, presumably Linux or whoever chose that interrupt number chose one that didn't clash with the other ones
05:16:03 <b_jonas> like, I've no idea what syscall interfaces Win16 and Win95 and WinNT and OS/2 and the two or three big DOS protected mode enchancers use, but Linus or whoever chose that syscall number probably knew about all that when they started to write x86_32 system-level code
05:16:56 <b_jonas> and if you want to emulate an operating system that is really uncooperative, then you need a full machine virtualizer anyway, and x86 has like three or four underlying mechanisms for that already
05:17:04 <shachaf> Windows doesn't have a stable ABI for this.
05:17:07 <b_jonas> although now that I think of it
05:17:35 <b_jonas> like how does it handle system calls from the processes it runs?
05:17:44 <b_jonas> user-mode linux, the one that HackEso uses
05:18:02 <shachaf> PTRACE_SYSEMU lets you handle system calls yourself.
05:18:20 <shachaf> Ah, `man ptrace` mentions that that's what it's for.
05:18:50 <b_jonas> that sounds rather impractical. I imagine the details get messy
05:20:22 <b_jonas> ah well, I consider myself a user-mode programmer, I don't want to get into the details of system programming
05:22:31 <b_jonas> of course I'm willing to do messy stuff in user space instead
05:23:52 <int-e> almost any use of ptrace gets messy :)
05:24:32 <shachaf> I just measured out of curiosity and `perf trace` is way way faster than strace.
05:24:44 <shachaf> Sometimes it drops events, but maybe that's that's what you want.
05:24:52 <shachaf> Too bad it needs a lot more permission.
05:25:05 <shachaf> (It looks like it needs the same permissions to trace a child as to trace the entire system.)
05:25:33 <ais523> presumably the syscall logging in `perf trace` happens in kernel mode, as opposed to `strace` where the kernel has to call back to a usermode process to do the logging
05:26:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: or you can use good old compiler level active tracing, where the compiler compiles short tracing sequences, like ones that increase a counter, to every function or every branch
05:26:39 <shachaf> Yes. I don't know much about how kernel tracepoints work.
05:27:06 <shachaf> b_jonas: Sure, of course if you can modify the program you can do much better.
05:27:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, and you don't have to recompile everything, only the compilation units you're interested in
05:27:51 <shachaf> But you have to be compiling the program in the first place.
05:28:13 <ais523> either that, or decompiling it
05:28:20 <ais523> but it's hard to know what asm-level transformations will be safe
05:28:51 <ais523> I've been wondering whether typical .s and/or .o files output by compilers do anything which would break if you moved things around, inserted instructions, etc.
05:29:10 <ais523> I think .o files don't have relocations for things like local jumps within a function, but .s files do
05:29:52 <shachaf> Facebook (?) has an optimizer that disassembles a .o, moves things around, and reassembles it.
05:31:07 <shachaf> To move parts of functions that profiles show are cold to their own section, away from the hot code.
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05:50:33 <shachaf> int-e: OK, I got to the memorial.
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05:52:13 <int-e> (and the final star was just a red herring all the time)
05:52:42 <shachaf> But I think I'm not done, because your map had an extra area.
05:52:45 <int-e> shachaf: But I did find the 8,9 level amazingly delicate.
05:53:06 <int-e> shachaf: Well, I *think* you can't get it.
05:53:35 <shachaf> Your map had an extra walled-off area at 8,16.
05:53:38 <int-e> shachaf: The map has changed, the solid walls connecting to hidden areas are no longer solid.
05:53:48 <shachaf> Oh no, I have to do it again?
05:53:52 <shachaf> I already went to 8,15 twice.
05:54:37 <int-e> I'm not sure which of 8,9 or 8,14 is harder
05:54:54 <int-e> the former uses the parity theme, but the latter has more degrees of freedom
05:55:04 <shachaf> 8,14 was certainly easier for me.
05:55:37 <int-e> it wasn't clear to me at all where the 9 and 4 pieces are supposed to go
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05:56:36 <int-e> But when replaying today I still mostly remembered, and once those spots are fixed things become relatively easy.
05:56:38 <shachaf> It's not clear to me either, but I figured it out a couple of times.
05:57:20 <int-e> But... how do you have 15 stars then?
05:57:26 <int-e> Isn't there a star down there?
05:57:38 <shachaf> Yes, but I don't remember the solution.
05:59:16 <shachaf> I got to 8,15 twice before, and now I don't remember how I did it. But it was much easier for me than 8,9.
05:59:24 <int-e> (I don't particularly like the new map... I wish there was a third line type for the former hidden areas.)
06:00:45 <shachaf> The map looks the same to me.
06:00:53 <shachaf> So I must not have gotten all the kittens.
06:01:09 <int-e> But you see that by the exlamation marks.
06:01:57 <int-e> on the map, where there are kittens to be rescued :P
06:02:29 <int-e> Alos there are 9 of those.
06:02:58 <shachaf> I have 9 kittens and one goat.
06:03:47 <int-e> So if you look at the walls to the top-right of the hard ares, are those solid as in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png or broken like ordinary connecting rooms?
06:04:05 <shachaf> OK, I'm at 8,15 and I see nothing unusual.
06:04:07 <int-e> It's possible that the game remembers some state... I played in a fresh profile today.
06:04:52 <int-e> and the same applies to 8,15
06:05:02 <int-e> which used to look like a seaparate room
06:05:12 <int-e> wow, my typing sucks
06:05:53 <int-e> if you have seen the memorial and rescued the goat... I think you're done.
06:06:59 <shachaf> Seemswhoa, I just triggered a weird bug.
06:07:00 <int-e> And while it looks in 5,10 like you maybe could bring two kittens in from the right... I don't believe that's actually possible, and it would rather spoil the ending too.
06:07:25 <int-e> (5,10 is where the remaining 16th star is)
06:08:03 <int-e> I really resent that star. :P
06:09:44 <shachaf> And there's nothing to be done in 6,8 with a second kitten?
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06:11:08 <int-e> Well, there was nothing interesting there? Some ice, and I guess you can explore more of the room... but no exits, nothing to push around...
06:11:58 <int-e> So probably something to toy with, but no puzzle.
06:32:52 <shachaf> int-e: OK, I looked up whether the star is possible, and it is, and now I got it.
06:33:05 <shachaf> I should have spent more time trying to get it before being told it was possible.
06:33:52 <shachaf> This is a mild spoiler, but I think this explains why there's a door down the corridor to the memorial.
07:22:41 <lambdabot> KOAK 190653Z 36013G22KT 10SM FEW180 20/M09 A2994 RMK AO2 PK WND 04032/0633 SLP136 T02001089
07:22:42 <lambdabot> KSFO 190656Z 35013KT 10SM FEW200 19/M03 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP134 T01891028
07:23:09 <shachaf> If only I knew how to read that.
07:24:04 <shachaf> I guess PK WND means "peak wind".
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07:45:45 <int-e> shachaf: I see, thanks.
07:46:09 <shachaf> Now it says "100% complete".
07:46:51 <int-e> tbf, that was some heavy duty cloning
07:47:07 <int-e> So I'm not too sad that I decided it wasn't possible last time.
07:49:49 <int-e> I was also misled by a comment that said "I got all 15 stars".
07:52:43 <int-e> still, I failed :)
07:54:02 <int-e> at least I now understand why there's a door and another teleport at the right end of the memorial
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07:58:21 <int-e> Oh since I love complaining about youtube lately... another thing that feels new is that I have to click `back` twice to get back to the index I found the video on... and that despite the URL being unchanged.
07:58:52 <int-e> . o O ( I bet this increases engagement with a video by precious seconds )
07:59:57 <int-e> I'm not sure whether this is deliberate or an artifact of being prompted for login (no) and cookies (sure, I'll accept them, good luck getting them back)
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09:57:22 <lambdabot> KOAK 190953Z 36021G26KT 10SM FEW250 17/M08 A2995 RMK AO2 PK WND 03039/0917 SLP140 T01671078
10:00:21 <lambdabot> LOWI 190950Z 28008KT CAVOK M06/M07 Q1022 R08/19//95 NOSIG
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10:05:20 <shachaf> "from the N (360 degrees) at 24 MPH (21 knots; 10.8 m/s) gusting to 30 MPH (26 knots; 13.4 m/s)"
10:05:28 <shachaf> Is that high? I have no idea.
10:05:58 <lambdabot> EGNT 190950Z 21001KT 1200 R25/P1500 BCFG FEW003 05/04 Q0997
10:06:26 <Taneb> Maybe I should move closer to an airport
10:07:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 190950Z AUTO 24015KT 9999 BKN016 12/09 Q1006 NOSIG
10:07:40 <Taneb> shachaf: I'm planning to move close to LIDE but @metar doesn't seem to know about it
10:07:59 <int-e> fizzie: hmm. https://windows2universe.org/earth/Atmosphere/wind_speeds.html strong gale/fresh breeze...
10:09:06 <fizzie> m/s is the only unit of wind speed that I have any frame of reference to, because it's what Finnish weather reports use exclusively.
10:10:07 <lambdabot> KSFO 190956Z 02029G39KT 10SM CLR 16/M02 A2992 RMK AO2 PK WND 01039/0951 SLP130 T01611017
10:17:08 <int-e> fizzie: they tend to use km/h around here
10:17:28 <int-e> SI units are not saving the day this time
10:18:12 <Taneb> What's that in fur/ftn
10:18:38 <shachaf> seen any good cats lately?
10:19:06 <Taneb> Not in person (not been leaving the house) but some friends sent my some photos
10:20:21 <fizzie> I saw a cat in a video call the other day. More video calls should feature cats.
10:20:24 <fizzie> (It had a human dialing in too, it wasn't just the cat joining the meeting.)
10:20:30 <int-e> I'm having trouble with the concept of a good cat. :P
10:20:42 <shachaf> I agree with you, the word "good" is redundant.
10:20:54 <shachaf> Just a longwinded way fo saying "seen any cats lately?".
10:20:56 <int-e> Nah, they range from evil to neutral.
10:21:15 * rain1 gets giant foam pointing hand
10:21:15 <fizzie> Certainly chaotic on the other axis.
10:21:21 <Taneb> int-e: here "good" is referring to their catness, not their morality
10:21:26 <Taneb> A good cat is a cat which is good at being a cat
10:21:32 <shachaf> Some cats might be evil, but obviously that doesn't preclude them from being good.
10:22:03 <Taneb> Similar to the use of good in "can someone recommend me a good book"
10:22:28 <shachaf> This is a different sense of the word "good", but perhaps also relevant: http://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/dog-philosophy
10:23:20 <fizzie> 19. good, honest -- (not forged; "a good dollar bill") // could also refer to a cat that's actually a cat and not, e.g., a dog wearing a cat outfit
10:23:47 <shachaf> I will not stand for cat forgeries.
10:23:53 <shachaf> Only the real thing for me.
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10:49:11 <int-e> how about a sabretooth tiger?
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10:55:49 <int-e> We could try to get Taneb to rescue some n-step kittens.
10:56:01 <Taneb> You could in principle
10:56:37 <int-e> Taneb: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
11:07:51 <int-e> shachaf: How are your hiding places :P
11:08:04 <shachaf> Hmm, nothing since I solved 609.
11:08:28 <shachaf> I did some of the next levels but there's still some left.
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11:12:58 <Taneb> This is a cute game, I will play more of it when I am not working
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11:30:52 <arseniiv> for some reason my cat lounged at the edge of my desk today, maybe because there’s a radiator right nearby
11:34:14 <arseniiv> for many years she was disinterested in this table but some days ago she jumped on it and wanted to go behind the screen, though she couldn’t and then scampered away. Long ago she several times laid on my hand on the table and it seemed to be comfortable for her this way, but then she abandoned visiting the table
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13:34:16 <esowiki> [[HQ9+~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80083&oldid=80003 * EZ132 * (-79)
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13:34:58 <lambdabot> KOAK 191253Z 01019G41KT 10SM CLR 15/M08 A2994 RMK AO2 PK WND 01041/1244 SLP137 T01501083
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13:36:24 <shachaf> It seems to be gusting up to "Stong gale".
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16:14:12 <b_jonas> <fizzie> (It had a human dialing in too)" => of course. cats regularly use humans as servants for tasks like opening cans, opening and closing doors, setting up video calls. they're too classy to do all that work themselves.
16:15:30 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> and not, e.g., a dog wearing a cat outfit" as in https://xkcd.com/629/
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19:28:59 <esowiki> [[Bit Stupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80084&oldid=56853 * Tetrapyronia * (+121) Added Hello, world! program
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20:24:34 <esowiki> [[Demons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80085&oldid=46808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Sample code */ cats
20:28:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AmIdle * New user account
20:30:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80086&oldid=80063 * AmIdle * (+143) /* Introductions */
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20:35:58 <esowiki> [[User:AmIdle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80087 * AmIdle * (+46) User page
20:36:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:AmIdle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80088 * AmIdle * (+0) Created blank page
20:37:39 <esowiki> [[SE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80089&oldid=42984 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Interpreter */ Cats
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23:23:15 <zzo38> Do you think the picture editor of Free Hero Mesh is good, or do you think that perhaps some function is missing? I thought one is missing but I didn't know what it is called, so hopefully you would know? Specifically, that you might define a picture not according to its pixels but rather the other picture it is based on, together with rotation and/or colour replacements.
23:56:51 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80090&oldid=80026 * Quintopia * (+17) ldstr
00:18:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80091&oldid=80080 * Pen Island * (+184) /* Source request */
00:33:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80092&oldid=80091 * Pen Island * (+358) added new links!
00:34:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80093&oldid=80092 * Pen Island * (+14)
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00:48:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80094&oldid=80093 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+158) Reply
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01:54:54 <esowiki> [[User:Pen Island]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80095&oldid=80064 * Pen Island * (+29) updated my page (finally)
02:35:21 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80096&oldid=80007 * Digital Hunter * (+95) /* Commands and keywords */
03:45:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80097&oldid=80096 * Digital Hunter * (+106) /* Commands and keywords */
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04:05:17 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80098&oldid=80097 * Digital Hunter * (+1440) Added a few example programs
04:09:50 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80099&oldid=79969 * Digital Hunter * (-14)
05:11:45 <zzo38> I recently played Scrabble with a variant rule: Multi-crossing is if you make two or more words that are not in the direction that you are playing. You cannot do multi-crossing on two consecutive turns.
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15:59:36 <esowiki> [[User:Pen Island]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80100&oldid=80095 * Pen Island * (+115) updated my page (again POG)
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16:02:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80101&oldid=77527 * Pen Island * (+142) social interaction!
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16:07:28 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80102&oldid=80098 * Digital Hunter * (+38) /* 9 bottles of beer */ foreshadowing :o
16:09:22 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80103&oldid=80102 * Digital Hunter * (+75) /* Cat program */
16:11:19 <esowiki> [[User:Pen Island]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80104&oldid=80100 * Pen Island * (+97) mini update v200000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pog
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16:29:34 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80105&oldid=80103 * Digital Hunter * (+276) /* 9 bottles of beer */
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19:22:03 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Theorem prover]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80106 * Hakerh400 * (+23276) Theorem prover
19:22:18 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Theorem prover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80107&oldid=80106 * Hakerh400 * (+30179)
19:22:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80108&oldid=79870 * Hakerh400 * (+51) Theorem prover
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19:38:24 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80109&oldid=80105 * Digital Hunter * (+54) /* Commands and keywords */
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19:48:14 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80110&oldid=80109 * Digital Hunter * (+172) /* Example programs */
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20:01:28 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80111&oldid=80110 * Digital Hunter * (+204) /* Truth-machine */
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20:27:16 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80112&oldid=80111 * Digital Hunter * (+293) /* Hello, world! */
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21:02:07 <zzo38> One document about web browsers says, "Actually, elinks supports features that are somehow missing in "modern" web browsers (such as editing cookies, custom stylesheets or keybinding)"
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22:08:24 <zzo38> We need web browser designs to be better user oriented with the UNIX philsophy. The web developer console does count as a "user oriented" feature, and so do the features mentioned above. Another of my idea is "meta-CSS".
22:25:25 <kmc> what is meta-CSS?
22:27:34 <zzo38> Allows the user to specify some commands which are not available to document authors, which provide more criteria and properties, including those which test for criteria and properties in existing documents, and the possibility to alter their meanings, both conditionally and unconditionally.
22:28:30 <zzo38> (For example, you can specify styles which are applied only to documents that do not have their own CSS, or you can define "text-decoration: blink" as an animation.)
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22:31:33 <kmc> that could be neat
22:37:34 <zzo38> Another feature would be the table of contents window, which would display a tree view of the <H1>, <H2>, etc in the HTML document, as well as other commands such as <ARTICLE>.
22:40:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: isn't that just an optional stylesheet saying p { display: none; } to show only the headers?
22:46:12 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, not quite. In this case it would be a separate window and if you click one you can automatically scroll the document view to that heading (and if you right-click you can get the URL for that heading, I suppose).
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22:48:35 <fizzie> That reminds me, someone told me the Octotree browser extension makes browsing code on Github actually nice. Wonder if that's true.
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07:42:26 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
07:43:02 <HackEso> The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma, but he ran out anyway.
07:48:43 <int-e> Well if he ran out, where did he go?
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08:11:01 <int-e> Oh I see... someone connected the dots in that one.
08:11:10 <int-e> `cwlprits grace period
08:11:30 <int-e> That was expected.
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14:35:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80113&oldid=80013 * Tetrapyronia * (+40) Fixed Turi TM
14:39:44 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80114&oldid=79559 * Tetrapyronia * (+7) Fixed spacing on cat
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15:16:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kamba * New user account
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15:24:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80115&oldid=80086 * Kamba * (+211) /* Introductions */
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15:43:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80116&oldid=53855 * Orisphera * (+1864) /* Arrows are unnecessary */
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15:58:51 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80117&oldid=79945 * Bo Tie * (+0) I am dumb and I was correct in the first place
16:21:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * The-Ennemy * New user account
16:22:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80118&oldid=80115 * The-Ennemy * (+142) /* Introductions */
16:22:54 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80119 * The-Ennemy * (+16) Created page with "Not much to say."
16:25:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: table of contents => ok, that makes sense. I guess that's the sort of thing someone might have already implemented as a browser extension.
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17:05:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80120 * Tetrapyronia * (+1866) /* 4-Cell Brainf*ck Translation (without using t) */ new section
17:07:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80121&oldid=80120 * Tetrapyronia * (+98) forgot signature
18:14:17 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80122&oldid=72858 * Kamba * (+257) added an interpreter for this language.
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18:18:28 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80123&oldid=80122 * Kamba * (+30)
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19:39:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80124&oldid=80121 * Tetrapyronia * (-2)
19:41:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80125&oldid=80124 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
19:44:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80126&oldid=80125 * Tetrapyronia * (-35)
19:46:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80127&oldid=80126 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) final edit (hopefully)
19:48:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80128&oldid=80127 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
19:55:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80129&oldid=80128 * Tetrapyronia * (+4)
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20:21:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80130&oldid=80113 * Pen Island * (+106) added loadstring
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21:16:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BakersDozenBagels * New user account
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21:55:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80131&oldid=80118 * BakersDozenBagels * (+178)
21:56:06 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80132&oldid=79160 * BakersDozenBagels * (+516) Add another example program, and update the language specifications.
21:59:45 <rain1> http://www.zrzahid.com/inorder-traversal-using-constant-space-morris-traversal/ i like this
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23:37:49 <esowiki> [[91v]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80133 * Zero player rodent * (+2290) Created page with "'''91v''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Zero player rodent]]. It only has 9 memory cells that can be accessed. It has a large amount of commands, b..."
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01:04:01 <b_jonas> Apparently if I search for my real name on duckduckgo, I find: several aggregator pages listing scholarly articles in mathematics that I published under that name; a lot of obvious false positives that match only my given name and not my family name (which is a mythic rare word; the matches are usually to personal names, but I just learned there's a village in France named the same); my CPAN profile
01:04:07 <b_jonas> which is listed with my real name; the SQLite mailing list archive which doesn't show any emails unless you're subscribed but somehow still reveals my name; a pastebin entry with a git commit of a doc patch to I think perl that has my name in a list of authors in surrounding lines, I think because I sent a different doc patch to the same module.
01:05:30 <b_jonas> Also a profile on Mathematics Stack Exchange, where I put my real name because I also put my real name to MathOverflow because I asked questions clearly related to the professional work..
01:05:44 <b_jonas> Let's see if some plus signs can remove the false positives with only my given name.
01:07:52 <b_jonas> Oh yeah, I forgot. Without plus signs it also finds my homepage.
01:08:21 <b_jonas> And some bug reports to perl.
01:08:37 <fizzie> Hmm, been a while since I last searched for myself. These results seem *incredibly* boring: the Google Scholar page, the GitHub profile, the silly ResearchGate page, my own wobsite.
01:08:45 <fizzie> Okay, there's one kind of a funny one, which is the GLfunge98-0.0.04 package on the "HP-UX Porting and Archive Centre".
01:10:04 <b_jonas> It apparently even finds an email on the sqlite mailing list.
01:10:16 <b_jonas> With plus signs it finds very few results, but they include a bug report to texinfo.
01:10:50 <b_jonas> let me see with quotation marks, and swapped with quotation marks.
01:17:27 <b_jonas> I am mostly satisfied with what I'm seeing.
01:20:48 <b_jonas> whoa... I have a doc bug report for ruby? for ruby version 1.9? wow, the things I've done on the internet more than a decade ago and can't recall
01:21:55 <b_jonas> Obviously I also find other scholarly articles that cite my articles.
01:23:15 <b_jonas> quotation marks actually help find more relevant hits
01:24:21 <esowiki> [[Tarflex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80134&oldid=73745 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Quine */ fix header level
01:25:47 <fizzie> I wrote a Finnish keymap for NetBSD 20 years ago, and therefore ended up being mentioned in the CVS revision history, just because I didn't realize the existing Swedish one would've really been just fine.
01:30:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: if you did realize that, you'd still have your name with a one-line patch to make "se" a synonym for "fi" when choosing keymaps
01:30:43 <fizzie> (It's one of those cases where the ISO 639-1 language code doesn't match the ISO 3166 alpha-2 code for the country.)
01:30:54 <fizzie> (Even when the language is strongly associated with a specific country, I mean.)
01:31:11 <b_jonas> whoa, I found a scholarly article, with an author I know personally, that thanks me for "ideas for the proof", and I don't recall having seen this article yet.
01:31:16 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at what it is
01:33:36 <b_jonas> oh nice! the search with the name swapped and quotation mark finds the bug report to sqlite about a segmentation fault for a statement that should be an error
01:33:50 <b_jonas> as in, should be an error handled gracefully with an error message
01:34:41 <b_jonas> (it's old, the bug has been fixed in 2014)
01:35:44 <b_jonas> to state the obvious, for applying to jobs, I want to know what an interviewer finds when they search for my name
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01:36:40 <b_jonas> there's a lot of perl-related stuff
01:38:27 <b_jonas> I also found a false positive with the name of my father, who has the same family name
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02:05:49 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80135&oldid=74422 * Robolta * (+12) /* Created Esolangs */
02:05:55 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80136&oldid=80135 * Robolta * (+1) /* Created Esolangs */
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02:43:06 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80137 * Robolta * (+1726) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Patternfuck''' is an esolang made by [[User:Robolta]]. It uses a tape-based memory that resembles [[Brainfuck|brainfuck]] but differs in how it uses the square br..."
02:44:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80138&oldid=80071 * Robolta * (+18) Added Patternfuck
03:04:58 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80139&oldid=80137 * Robolta * (+1281)
03:08:07 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80140&oldid=80136 * Robolta * (+4) /* Created Esolangs */
03:09:40 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80141&oldid=80139 * Robolta * (-3) /* Negative to Positive */
03:10:07 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80142&oldid=80141 * Robolta * (+65) /* Overview */
03:10:22 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80143&oldid=80142 * Robolta * (+0) /* Overview */
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03:20:24 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80144&oldid=80123 * Hakerh400 * (+46)
03:26:39 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80145&oldid=80143 * Tetrapyronia * (+14) fixed link
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03:55:35 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80146&oldid=79308 * Hakerh400 * (+243)
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04:09:15 <moony> devising calling conventions is haaard
04:09:26 <moony> trying to figure out one for the Parallax Propeller 2, as it doesn't have an official C calling convention
04:19:00 <b_jonas> moony: I'm not sure that matters. you only really get to define a calling convention if you port a compiler. not necessarily a C compiler, any compiler, or even an interpreter that lets you call or expose foreign functinos. and doing that is hard already.
04:20:15 <moony> i'd have the CC done by now
04:20:51 <moony> 496 allocatable registers that have to be shared with globals and sometimes even code
04:20:51 <moony> is just a pain to make a good balance for
04:23:00 <moony> i was thinking allocate 120-128 regs, but then i have to figure out how i want to categorize those
04:23:31 <moony> the CC on P2 also controls what registers can be used during code execution, not just calls, which is extra fun
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06:49:57 <kmc> I am reading about the "PIO" feature in the new RP2040 microcontroller from Raspberry Pi
06:50:03 <kmc> chapter 3 https://datasheets.raspberrypi.org/pico/sdk/pico_c_sdk.pdf
06:50:20 <kmc> it is kind of esolang-like
06:50:58 <kmc> a very simple and limited coprocessor core which is designed for bit-banging protocols
07:02:04 <esowiki> [[Vyxal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80147 * JonoCode9374 * (+5888) Wow I actually made an esolangs page for Vyxal at long last
07:04:53 <esowiki> [[Vyxal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80148&oldid=80147 * JonoCode9374 * (+527)
07:05:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80149&oldid=80138 * JonoCode9374 * (+12) /* V */ is for Vyxal
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07:23:39 <kmc> it has some unusual ISA features, like a programmable number of delay cycles after every instruction, and the ability to set/reset output pins as an additional effect of any instruction
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07:28:14 <kmc> on the other hand it has only two general purpose registers, and each group of 4 PIO cores (there are 8 cores in total) share a single 32-instruction program memory
07:28:55 <kmc> (though host code can update that memory on the fly, and also send them instructions to execute immediately
07:31:34 <kmc> I think you could get them to execute from main memory using the OUT EXEC instruction in conjunction with the DMA peripheral
07:31:34 <kmc> but then you would lose the use of the output FIFO for other stuff
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09:30:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80150&oldid=79680 * Quadril-Is * (+98)
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09:35:52 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80151&oldid=77102 * Quadril-Is * (+0) I tested using a regex and unless there's something that shouldn't be counted 4 is the 46th link
09:36:37 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80152&oldid=80151 * Quadril-Is * (+0) Forgot about the other ones
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10:04:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80153&oldid=80150 * Quadril-Is * (-71)
10:08:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80154&oldid=80153 * Quadril-Is * (+27) Test test test
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10:14:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80155&oldid=80154 * Quadril-Is * (-28)
10:16:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80156&oldid=80155 * Quadril-Is * (-8) /* Something */
10:19:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80157&oldid=80156 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /* Something */
10:19:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80158&oldid=80157 * Quadril-Is * (+2) /* Something */
10:19:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80159&oldid=80158 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /* Something */
10:20:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80160&oldid=80159 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /* Something */
10:20:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80161&oldid=80160 * Quadril-Is * (-2) /* Something */
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11:55:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gilbert189 * New user account
12:13:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80162&oldid=80131 * Gilbert189 * (+203) /* Introductions */
12:56:41 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80163 * Gilbert189 * (+428) Created page with "Hi! I made esolangs! Um, I have some that I already made, but it's all in tio, so I can't share the here... :P I have a [https://github.com/Gilbert189 GitHub account] (or pa..."
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13:45:55 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80164&oldid=80145 * Robolta * (+117) /* Fibonacci */
13:46:09 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80165&oldid=80164 * Robolta * (+1) /* Fibonacci */
13:47:10 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80166&oldid=80165 * Robolta * (+22) /* Overview */
14:07:53 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80167&oldid=80166 * Robolta * (+1312)
14:11:19 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80168&oldid=80167 * Robolta * (+51)
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14:23:05 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80169&oldid=80168 * Robolta * (+96)
14:23:19 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80170&oldid=80169 * Robolta * (+1) /* Interpreters */
14:23:28 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80171&oldid=80170 * Robolta * (-2) /* Interpreters */
14:30:54 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80172&oldid=80171 * Robolta * (+14) /* Examples */
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15:25:34 <esowiki> [[RomanF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80173 * Gilbert189 * (+1177) Created page with "romanF is a [[brainfuck|Brainfuck]] derivative, but using Roman numerals. It is made by [[User:Gilbert189]]. ==Translation to Brainfuck== {| class="wikitable" |- ! romanF !!..."
15:25:45 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80174&oldid=80163 * Gilbert189 * (-8)
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15:38:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80175&oldid=80116 * Orisphera * (-1562) /* Arrows are unnecessary */
15:58:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80176&oldid=80175 * Orisphera * (-46) /* Arrows are unnecessary */
16:01:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80177&oldid=80176 * Orisphera * (+2) /* Arrows are unnecessary */
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17:01:12 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:01:27 <Sgeo> Dangit I was reading it and totally forgot to olist
17:04:31 <b_jonas> kmc: so this is something you can use to implement the realtime part of a serial comms controller or a floppy disk controller? can they do DMA or do they only have a small (few bytes) buffer after which the CPU has to contact them?
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17:46:47 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80178&oldid=80117 * Bo Tie * (+0) Something is wrong with me
18:02:55 <kmc> b_jonas: they have DMA. each PIO state machine (the 8 "cores" i mentioned) has a 4-word TX FIFO and a four-word RX FIFO, which can be filled (respectively, emptied) either by the main CPU or by the system DMA engine
18:05:43 <kmc> one of the example PIO programs is a "logic analyzer" which writes the state of all 32 GPIOs directly to memory, once per cycle, through the DMA engine
18:06:28 <b_jonas> kmc: oh nice! so you could implement an IO program that stores a sector to a memory buffer. Though it probably isn't good enough to decode the sector as well, you'll need a CPU (or perhaps a GPU) to do that.
18:06:34 <Hooloovo0> if there's hardware it's not bit-banging!
18:06:55 <Hooloovo0> iirc the reason a lot of people use the beaglebone for stuff is because it has a very good timing generator
18:07:27 <Hooloovo0> if the pi now has one, that's cool for them
18:07:45 <kmc> Hooloovo0: this isn't the main Raspberry Pi
18:08:02 <kmc> it's the "RP2040" which is a dual Cortex-M0 microcontroller
18:08:07 <kmc> sold on a $4 board
18:08:47 <Hooloovo0> ah, that one, heard about that the other day. I'm guessing it's losing money, and basically sounds like just another arduino to me
18:09:35 <kmc> it's aiming at the same niche as arduino but has a few unusual hardware features
18:09:53 <kmc> one of which is the PIO state machines I've been discussing
18:10:00 <b_jonas> hmm, looks like I'm disconnected from IRC
18:10:08 <kmc> b_jonas: you're still here
18:10:37 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80179&oldid=80112 * Digital Hunter * (+269) /* Example programs */
18:11:34 <kmc> it's also clocked very fast for a microcontroller (133 MHz)
18:11:52 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm still here, but with a multiple minutes long delay to receive messages through this connection. I see the messages in https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-01-22.html way before I see them in the irc client.
18:11:53 <kmc> and the core clock PLL and Vcore LDO are both programmable, so it should be overclockable too :3
18:11:57 <kmc> b_jonas: odd
18:13:07 <b_jonas> kmc: I remember one time this happened on freenode, when the delay eventually grew to like 20 or 30 minutes between servers
18:13:07 <b_jonas> that was years ago of course
18:13:41 <b_jonas> apparently you all are on the side closer to the log bot
18:14:54 <b_jonas> hmm, it might have been a temporary delay clearing itself up
18:15:17 <b_jonas> must have been some temporary hiccup
18:19:03 <kmc> another thing I forgot to mention about the PIO state machines, each one has a programmable fractional clock divider, this combined with cycle-accurate execution (each PIO instruction takes one cycle, optionally followed by a delay of up to 31 cycles) makes them suitable for implementing protocols that require precise timing
18:20:24 <kmc> although the fractional clock divider is not an independent PLL but some sigma-delta cycle skipping thing that introduces jitter
18:20:34 <b_jonas> apparently other people experienced the problem too on the same server
18:23:00 <kmc> they can also cause and wait for interrupts
18:23:30 <b_jonas> useful when you have DMA, you somehow have to wake up the cpu after reading the whole sector to DMA
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18:49:12 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I'm not sure if the RPi Pico is losing money. i mean, all new designs lose money initially, but compare it to those "bluepill" boards which have a (possibly counterfeit) STM32F1 and sell for under $2 shipped
18:49:26 <kmc> and those are a non-branded product so there is no reason why they would sell them at a loss
18:56:45 <Sgeo> Why am I finding myself fascinated by C#? (Probably because people are now looking at me to maintain a C# project)
18:57:06 <Sgeo> It has a REPL now, it's supposedly more cross-platform now
18:57:21 <kmc> I also wouldn't be surprised if the next version of the main RPi product line has one of these microcontrollers onboard
19:11:38 <kmc> that would be interesting, especially if they have a good way to orchestrate communication between the application processor and the microcontroller
19:12:55 <kmc> something more high level than "here's a UART"
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19:15:15 <kmc> imagine writing a Python program which runs in Linux on the app processor but with the ability to offload individual functions to MicroPython on the Cortex-M cores for timing sensitive stuff, and embedding PIO programs (they already have a Python EDSL for them) for the really low level stuff
19:20:35 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80180&oldid=80179 * Digital Hunter * (-8)
19:30:33 <esowiki> [[User:Bo Tie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80181&oldid=79881 * Bo Tie * (+35)
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19:48:09 <Sgeo> ....Microsoft officially acknowledges the existence of ILspy? Adobe doesn't acknowledge Flash decompilers and Oracle doesn't acknowledge Java decompilers, do they?
19:48:23 <Sgeo> https://github.com/microsoft/win32metadata
19:48:29 <Sgeo> > If you'd like to browse the metadata to see what we're emitting, download the NuGet package and load the included winmd file in ILSpy.
19:48:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:64: error: <hint>:1:64: error: parse error on input ‘,’
20:05:56 <fizzie> Ooh, I think this is a new category of spam for me (not that I follow them so closely).
20:06:10 <fizzie> Claims to be from "GoDaddy Cancellations", subject line "we inform you that the [domain of my email address] domain will expire on: 25/01/2021." Contains a "renewal link" where I'd (according to the message, didn't go check) just need to pay $1.99 with a credit card to renew it.
20:06:32 <fizzie> The domain is of an organization, not mine, and it's also not due to expire until 2025. But it's not a very "mainstream" organization; I imagine they won't be trying to send these to random people suggesting they should renew gmail.com.
20:16:59 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80182&oldid=80180 * Digital Hunter * (+49) /* Infinite loop */
20:43:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80183&oldid=80130 * Tetrapyronia * (+49) Added Recursor
20:44:09 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80184&oldid=80012 * Tetrapyronia * (+15)
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21:01:59 <b_jonas> `? #esoteric cookie policy
21:02:01 <HackEso> #esoteric cookie policy? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:02:10 <b_jonas> `? #esoteric privacy policy
21:02:13 <HackEso> #esoteric privacy policy? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:02:19 <b_jonas> `? #esoteric terms of services
21:02:21 <HackEso> #esoteric terms of services? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:31:06 <arseniiv> Sgeo: yeah it’s nice to see how C# grows, even as a language
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22:02:10 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80185&oldid=80182 * Digital Hunter * (+2538) Talked about numbers. The kind I'd italicise. The special, not-to-be-messed-with kind.
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22:17:36 <fizzie> Sgeo: Oracle acknowledges Forth decompilers. ;)
22:17:38 <fizzie> (In the OpenBoot documentation.)
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22:18:52 <fizzie> IntelliJ IDEA has a built-in Java decompiler, I think that's the closest to one having "official" status, though of course just having the (presumably?) most popular Java IDE bundle one is not exactly the same.
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22:34:20 <ais523> does the `volatile` keyword do anything useful nowadays? C compilers don't seem to allow for out-of-order execution when compiling it
22:34:46 <ais523> I tested the program «volatile int a; volatile int b; int main(void) { int a2 = a; int b2 = b; return a2 + b2; }»
22:35:44 <ais523> clang compiles it (at -O3) to movl a(%rip), %eax; addl b(%rip), %eax
22:36:11 <ais523> and gcc to movl a(%rip), %eax; movl b(%rip), %edx; addl %edx, %eax
22:36:19 <ais523> (plus the usual function prolog/epilog)
22:36:25 <ais523> both of them missed the lfence :-(
22:37:36 <ais523> not sure why I'm ranting here, I guess #esoteric is a good default channel for this sort of thing
22:40:02 <ais523> I guess machine code is basically an esolang of its own at this point
22:40:40 <ais523> it doesn't act like most people expect it to, and it's pretty much unreadable
22:41:40 <ais523> and it doesn't follow any of the major programming paradigms either, it's sort-of imperative but the order in which the commands are written doesn't really reflect the order in which they execute
22:41:44 <shachaf> volatile doesn't imply a memory fence, does it?
22:41:58 <ais523> well it has to mean something
22:42:00 <shachaf> If you want a fence you can write one.
22:42:13 <ais523> from my point of view, the C source says "load a before b"
22:42:25 <ais523> and the resulting machine code specifies two simultaneous loads
22:42:25 <fizzie> Yeah, it definitely doesn't mean that.
22:42:37 <fizzie> I don't think volatile has ever been fully defined in the standard. C11 atomics are rather more explicit about the model, though I don't think even those impose much of anything on loads of two unrelated atomic variables.
22:42:59 <kmc> volatile is still useful if reading or writing a memory location has a side effect
22:43:15 <kmc> which is common in the embedded world
22:43:26 <fizzie> Yeah, really what I think `volatile` is supposed to mean is "this is some kind of hardware register".
22:43:26 <ais523> if reading the memory had a side effect, I would expect the compiler to ensure that the memory was read in the order specified in the program
22:43:35 <kmc> https://gcc.godbolt.org/z/bKe3TP
22:43:44 <kmc> note how the read from reg1 is hoisted out of the loop, but the read from reg2 is not
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22:44:01 <shachaf> I think in that case volatile should mean something like, it'll emit the read instruction at the place you read from the variable.
22:44:15 <shachaf> As opposed to moving it out of a loop, for instance.
22:44:25 <kmc> (-Os might be clearer than -O3)
22:44:37 <ais523> kmc: that's only at the asm level, though; at the hardware level, that assembly language only reads reg2 once
22:44:52 <fizzie> In fact, there's a (non-normative) note where it deals with atomics which says that "the 'volatile as device register' semantics have not changed in the standard", not that that's all too clear.
22:44:53 <kmc> I mean, that depends on what the hardware is
22:45:11 <ais523> that's x86-64 you wrote, there's a specification for what memory read instructions do
22:45:21 <kmc> if the hardware is such that reading from reg2 has an important side effect then you can bet the hardware will perform that effect every time
22:45:28 <ais523> there are implicit store fences almost everywhere, but implicit laod fences almost nowhere
22:45:38 <kmc> okay. i didn't mean the example to be specific to x86-64
22:45:58 <kmc> anyway, yes volatile is still useful, especially in embedded, but it's not a substitute for fences or atomics
22:46:02 <ais523> it's possible for the kernel to configure the page tables so that a specific memory address has an implicit lfence, in addition to an implicit sfence
22:46:08 <kmc> it's more about synchronizing your code with respect to hardware, not with respect to other code
22:46:25 <ais523> kmc: I'm assuming a single-threaded program here
22:46:32 <ais523> just one that needs to read the memory address multiple times for some reason
22:47:02 <ais523> actually, if you're reading the same address twice, I don't think even lfence is sufficient, you would have to use clflush
22:47:14 <ais523> in order to get the processor to actually send two reads to the memory controller
22:47:18 <kmc> though also consider the case of a signal handler or callback which writes a flag
22:47:32 <kmc> in a single-threaded program
22:47:52 <ais523> in which case, you use volatile sig_atomic_t to specify that the flag should be written in a single machine instruction
22:48:18 <ais523> and that the program that reads the code needs to reload it in case the signal handler has written it
22:48:24 <kmc> yeah. volatile isn't meant to do anything to defeat transparent hardware caches
22:48:48 <kmc> in the embedded world if you're using a volatile variable then it's probably in uncached memory to begin with
22:49:09 <ais523> this is interesting because what the signal handler actually wants is an atomic variable, not a volatile variable, but signal handlers were invented before atomics were
22:50:02 <ais523> (I think the correct atomicity for this is "relaxed", not "sequentially consistent", isn't it? because all you care about is that you will correctly re-read a value that the same thread previously wrote)
22:50:59 <ais523> (or "release" if the signal handler is writing non-atomically into a buffer in order to send information to the main code)
22:51:47 <ais523> on a side note, I'm impressed by what -O3 did to sum1
22:52:00 <ais523> it multiplies by 5 before the loop, then by 2 when it adds it to sum2
22:53:18 <ais523> both times with a three-argument lea (which uses a lot of processor resources but isn't actually slow if you aren't doing much in parallel with it)
22:54:14 <Sgeo> Is it just me or does regsvr42 suck?
22:54:14 <ais523> actually I think it's wrong, though, it should imul before the loop because imul is capable of running in the background, then you can do a simple add after the loop which is faster than the lea
22:54:29 <Sgeo> (I might just add the features I need to it though)
22:55:58 <ais523> I've spent something like the past 3 days in despair at the state of current compilers
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22:56:16 <ais523> the general problem is that they're applying optimisations without an understanding of the contexts in which they're useful
22:56:50 <ais523> like, multiplies are slow, but a multiply before a long chain of additions is effectively free if you don't use the result during the chiain
22:57:23 <ais523> because the multiplier is a different chip component from the adders, it would otherwise be doing nothing, and it will finish the multiplication before the additions finish
22:57:54 <ais523> the only potential issue is the time it would take to load the constant 10 into a register, which is quick but not instantaneous
23:02:26 <kmc> to get those kinds of optimizations you may need a more specific -march / -mtune
23:05:08 <ais523> ah right, yes, I can't remember what's used by default
23:05:33 <ais523> all modern Intel and AMD processors can do background multiplies and pipelined multiplies, but gcc/clang may optimise for something older by default
23:36:52 <ais523> oh, that reminds me, I recently discovered why libm isn't just part of libc
23:37:15 <ais523> it's so that you can swap out the implementation of the floating-point functions to match the FPU of the processor you're on
23:37:37 <kmc> ah that's good
23:38:34 <ais523> presumably that requires dynamic linking to make sense
23:39:34 <ais523> and probably it doesn't make sense on x86-64 nowadays because AVX1 has been around pretty much forever and there's no advantage from using anything newer when it comes to straightforward functions like sin and tan
23:39:55 <ais523> the sorts of things that benefit from AVX2, etc., don't appear in libm anyway
23:40:08 <ais523> I guess it might become useful if 128-bit floating point ever gets hardware support
23:41:17 <kmc> thicc floats
23:44:56 <ais523> actually, even then, it wouldn't, because a new size of float would imply a new calling convention for functions that took long doubles as arguments
23:45:14 <ais523> so the two libms wouldn't be binary compatible and you wouldn't be able to swap them out
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23:55:18 <ais523> oh, someone here was asking about alignment a while back
23:55:52 <ais523> I think the situation on modern Intel x86-64 (probably also AMD) is that most alignments are fast, but there are occasional bad alignments that will slow things down
23:56:59 <ais523> the most notable in terms of data is that it takes twice as long to access memory that crosses a page boundary (normally 4096 bytes), e.g. you don't want to store a 64-bit value at an address like 0x3FFE
23:57:42 <ais523> with instructions, alignment can matter a lot more, but the details are very complicated and there's no obvious good alignment in many cases
23:58:12 <ais523> (although it's generally accepted that it's better for jump targets to be towards the start rather than the end of a 16-byte block, even that doesn't always seem to have an effect)
23:59:37 <ais523> anyway, in terms of main memory, bad alignments are rare and very spaced out, so if you're accessing memory in a loop, you would need to access a very large amount of memory before the cumulative effect of misaligned accesses is worse than the amount of time it took you to align your memory
23:59:57 <ais523> alignment was important on some older processors, though
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00:23:50 <b_jonas> "<ais523> does the `volatile` keyword do anything useful nowadays?" => probably, but you rarely want it, and you definitely don't want volatile for synchronization between threads or processes (or cpu threads at the lower level), you want C99 atomics or C++ atomics and all the higher level stuff for that, and it's not quite clear to me how you're supposed to do communication with a signal handler and
00:23:56 <b_jonas> whether volatiles are still relevant for that.
00:25:23 <b_jonas> yes, atomics are defined more explicitly, and it's important that atomics can do two things for one goal: they can forbid the compiler from reordering memory access, and they can forbid the CPU from reordering memory access (on modern cpus that do that)
00:26:39 <b_jonas> but what volatile is supposed to mean I have no clear idea
00:28:09 <kmc> I think at minimum it ensures the number of reads/writes at the assembly level is the same as at the source level
00:28:28 <kmc> disabling optimizations such as hoisting a load out of a loop
00:28:30 <kmc> which is important if reads/writes have side effects
00:29:15 <kmc> as ais523 pointed out, this means little to nothing on a modern out of order, cached, possibly SMP system
00:29:22 <kmc> but it's still very meaninful for microcontrollers
00:29:53 <b_jonas> "in which case, you use volatile sig_atomic_t to specify that the flag should be written in a single machine instruction" => perhaps, but it's not clear if this actually still works in modern compilers. I mean, it made sense in old barely-optimizing compilers to just have a type synonym for a type that's as wide as the typical write instructions, so you don't try to use a 32-bit int on a cpu where all
00:29:59 <b_jonas> 32-bit access will be implemented as two 16-bit accesses. but these days, if you want to guarantee that a value is written as a whole, that's what https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/atomic/ATOMIC_LOCK_FREE_consts and https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/atomic/atomic_is_lock_free is for.
00:30:10 <kmc> or memory mapped IO even on full modern systems (which would be in a special region designated as uncached)
00:31:36 <kmc> did I tell y'all I got a FPGA board? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/16526
00:31:44 <kmc> and it's supported by an open source toolchain
00:32:25 <kmc> and nMigen, which is a Python EHDL (is that a reasonable contraction of EDSL HDL?)
00:32:46 <kmc> so far i only did some simple demos with it
00:33:21 <kmc> got distracted by other things... carpentry and mushroom and plant growing projects and life stuff
00:33:25 <kmc> but i will go back to it soon
00:34:16 <b_jonas> ais523: if all you do in the signal handler is to set a flag, then I think relaxed atomics are fine. that means the write to that flag can be ordered in an unexpected way, but you do this for asynchronious signals, which can be delayed anyway. there's a way to force the kernel to deliver the signal handler NOW (as in before the next statement is executed)with sigsuspend, but if you do that, you won't
00:34:22 <b_jonas> have a signal handler that just sets a flag.
00:35:00 <b_jonas> if you want to do more than set a flag or _exit in your signal handler, then it's very likely that relaxed atomics aren't enough.
00:35:19 <kmc> maybe i will implement the RP2040 PIO architecture in nMigen
00:35:50 <b_jonas> as far as I understand, the good usecase for relaxed atomics is global counters that you very rarely increment, so you don't want to set up per-thread counters, but you want an exact total in them even in the rare and slow case when two threads increment it at the same time.
00:39:54 <b_jonas> ais523: re AVX1, it hasn't been around for long enough, there are still cpus without AVX in use, but your point still stands because all x86_64 cpus have SSE2 (even though the Intel manual is careful to specify everything as if that need not be true), so there's no reason to use anything older than SSE2 for floating point.
00:41:24 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80187&oldid=80186 * Digital Hunter * (+18) Undo revision 80186 by [[Special:Contributions/Digital Hunter|Digital Hunter]] ([[User talk:Digital Hunter|talk]])
00:41:46 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think what you're saying is true. if you're in a code with heavy memory access, then accessing data that crosses a cache line boundary (every 16 bytes) can slow your code down. it's not just page boundaries.
00:42:15 <b_jonas> this applies if you're doing a lot of access to memory that's already cached, not if you're accessing main memory once that the cache can never reuse.
00:42:48 <b_jonas> but there are lots of pieces of code that want to do this, accessing memory already in the L1 cache multiple times.
00:52:32 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80188&oldid=80187 * Digital Hunter * (+42) /* Commands and keywords */
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04:40:59 <ais523> <ais523> oh wow, so it turns out that if you pass MAP_NORESERVE to mmap (to tell it that it can find physical memory lazily as you write to your virtual memory, and don't need a guarantee that physical memory is available)
04:41:05 <ais523> <ais523> Linux lets you allocate some really ridiculous amounts of memory, I managed 35 TB in a single block (with almost that much allocated in other blocks)
04:41:42 <ais523> I was hoping it would do that, it means that you can (in effect) use very large MAP_NORESERVE mmaps as a method of reserving address space
04:43:17 <shachaf> I remember that Linux has a reserve vs. commit distinction, just like Windows, but no one actually uses it.
04:43:48 <shachaf> So you can write Linux programs that reserve address space and commit it as necessary, and they run fine without overcommit. But almost no program does that because overcommit is so pervasive.
04:44:05 <shachaf> And it's not even possible to ask the kernel what a process's committed memory usage is. It's not anywhere in /proc.
04:45:06 <shachaf> I think the trick is something like mapping pages PROT_READ or PROT_NONE so your process doesn't get charged for them.
04:45:31 <ais523> I was using MAP_NORESERVE | MAP_READ | MAP_WRITE for mine, that seemed to work
04:45:50 <ais523> also, I think /proc/$$/smaps might have the information you're looking for (although not directly)
04:46:11 <shachaf> But you want to be able to make a big mapping and then gradually commit it as you use more memory.
04:46:34 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I looked in smaps and didn't find it.
04:46:44 <shachaf> But maybe I only looked in status?
04:47:12 <shachaf> I don't remember anymore. It would be nice if it was possible.
04:47:53 <ais523> you can use madvise, or flags to mmap, to actually load physical pages to back your address range
04:48:03 <kmc> I thought Linux will (by default) overcommit allocations even without special mmap flags
04:48:04 <ais523> but normally you just let the kernel do it lazily
04:48:04 <shachaf> If you disable overcommit, the OOM killer should be irrelevant, right?
04:48:28 <kmc> ais523: see also mlock() and mlockall()
04:48:38 <shachaf> I don't really like the Linux culture of overcommit-and-pray.
04:48:48 <ais523> hmm, I wonder whether madvise(MADV_WILLNEED) on large blocks of memory is faster than just directly reading them and letting the kernel handle the pagefault
04:48:57 <ais523> presumably, pagefaults have some overhead as you switch to the kernel and back again
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04:50:31 <ais523> <shachaf> If you disable overcommit, the OOM killer should be irrelevant, right? ← sort-of; you still get processes failing randomly but now it's the process that can't allocate memory, as opposed to the process the kernel chooses to pick on
04:50:48 <ais523> because very few applications have any sensible codepath for the out-of-memory situation
04:50:52 <shachaf> That's not random, that's a process asking for memory in a well-defined place and failing.
04:51:12 <shachaf> I guess that's true, a lot of programs are buggy.
04:51:20 <ais523> the process that dies is the next process that tries to allocate memory, which might not be the process responsible for the problem
04:51:44 <ais523> say you have a program that makes intermittent large allocations and it's using up basically all of memory
04:51:51 <ais523> and a program that is using less memory but makes lots of small allocations
04:52:02 <ais523> it is quite possibly the latter program that will hit an OOM situation first
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04:52:34 <shachaf> At least with this system people who write programs have a chance of making them work well.
04:52:50 <ais523> I'm interested in why you think failing to handle OOM is a bug
04:53:25 <ais523> IMO, exiting in response to an OOM situation is usually correct (or possibly killing the process that's responsible for the memory, if it's not you)
04:53:31 <shachaf> Well, it's not a bug in every program, some programs just can't do anything.
04:54:07 <ais523> there is also the question of, should the OS start swapping under heavy memory pressure?
04:54:19 <shachaf> But some programs can behave well. Maybe clearing a cache they have, or exiting gracefully.
04:54:31 <ais523> disk has much higher capacities than memory on most systems
04:54:51 <shachaf> I just want to be able to write a reliable program that uses memory -- maybe even without allocating at all after startup -- and doesn't fail.
04:55:34 <ais523> in practice, I think I've seen an actual memory exhaustion only once, all the other times a program leaked more memory than the computer had, it basically ended up using the hard disk as a replacement for memory
04:55:58 <ais523> which of course makes the system unusably slow, which is why the point of memory exhaustion is rarely reached in practice
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05:01:45 <ais523> if your program doesn't allocate at all after startup, I don't see why the OOM-killer would pick on it
05:01:45 <shachaf> I guess the concern might be, maybe a program is using all of memory, and then other programs can't even start up, so you can't log in and kill the big program.
05:01:45 <shachaf> But the OOM killer doesn't seem like that great a solution.
05:01:45 <ais523> the basic question is "what do you do when there's no more left of a shared resource?"
05:01:45 <shachaf> Well, for one, maybe it allocates from the kernel's perspective, even if it doesn't from its own.
05:01:45 <shachaf> Because at startup it mmaps 16GB of memory to use for its computations, and it doesn't fault it all right away.
05:01:45 <ais523> Linux's default config won't let you allocate substantially more memory space than the computer has physical memory, even if you don't prefault it (unless you specify MAP_NORESERVE)
05:01:45 <ais523> you can go a little over, but not that much
05:01:45 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't think that's true.
05:01:45 <shachaf> GHC's runtime maps 1TB at startup now, I think?
05:01:45 <ais523> I both read it in the documentation, and tested it a few tens of minutes ago
05:01:45 <ais523> presumably the very large maps are using MAP_NORESERVE
05:01:45 <shachaf> Oh, interesting, maybe I'm just wrong on that and everyone uses NORESERVE.
05:01:45 <ais523> actually, now I'm vaguely curious as to why the pagetables don't end up filling most of memory when you do that, perhaps they can be deduplicated or initialized lazily or something like that
05:01:45 <shachaf> You don't need anything to be in actual page tables, right?
05:01:45 <shachaf> You can just store a big interval in the kernel and allocate the memory when addresses in that interval are faulted.
05:01:45 <ais523> oh right, you can access an address that isn't in the page tables at all and you just get a page fault
05:01:45 <ais523> which the kernel can handle by creating a page table
05:01:45 <ais523> so the maps only need to exist wihtin the kernel
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05:02:59 <b_jonas> ais523: you *can* allocate large amounts of memory that way, but I still think it's a bad idea to implement malloc, because you put more hidden performance costs on the kernel that has to manage that address space than you'd have in a more traditional malloc implementation. It's a good esoteric experiment though.
05:03:20 <ais523> I guess an interesting compromise would be for the OS to decide on a physical address that should back a particular piece of memory, but not actually clear it out or set up the pagetables until it's used
05:03:22 <shachaf> Interesting, I thought NORESERVE was the default behavior in Linux until now.
05:03:27 <ais523> so it can use the physical memory for storing caches until then
05:03:33 <shachaf> (With overcommit_memory set to 0.)
05:04:06 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm expecting it to be more efficient, rather than less efficient, because of fewer system calls
05:04:09 <ais523> the page faults happen either way
05:04:10 <shachaf> It would be nice to be able to ask, from a program, to actually really for real have the memory.
05:04:29 <shachaf> Writing to every page is probably enough?
05:04:39 <ais523> overcommit_memory = 1 will noreserve everything; overcommit_memory = 2 will refuse to overcommit at all
05:05:06 <ais523> mlocking is limited at 64 MB by default (although root can increase the limit at will)
05:05:21 <ais523> I think it makes sense that there's a limit for that
05:05:36 <shachaf> The default mlock limit is much higher than it used to be.
05:05:44 <shachaf> max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 4062728
05:06:02 <ais523> maybe you have more physical memory than I do
05:06:12 <ais523> or one of us has it set to a non-default value somehow
05:06:17 <shachaf> I feel like it used to be 64 kB or something.
05:06:30 <ais523> max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 65536
05:06:38 <shachaf> Hmm, I have 32 GB of physical memory, using Ubuntu, Linux 5.8.0.
05:07:09 <ais523> I have a lot less physical memory than you do, and am on Linux 5.4
05:08:05 <ais523> anyway, part of the reason I was looking at this is that I'm considering creating a new executable loader, and was considering possible patterns for allocating the virtual address space
05:08:26 <ais523> one possibility was to manage virtual memory reservations in userspace
05:08:58 <ais523> you could very efficiently do it statically, because virtual memory is so large that you can just divide it up evenly between every library that cares and they'll all have enough
05:09:35 <b_jonas> ais523: the page faults happen either way, but now the kernel has to manage a lot of administration structures to follow what is mapped where and set up page tables correctly, plus since the actual use is sparse, it can't use large pages, so the cpu has to work harder with paging table lookups too.
05:09:42 <ais523> one vision I have is for programs to be able to use multiple memory allocators without them treading on each others' toes, and to have a unified free() which can free from any of them
05:10:06 <ais523> b_jonas: by default, the kernel never uses large pages
05:10:17 <ais523> unless userspace requests it
05:10:19 <shachaf> Don't you typically know how memory was allocated when you free it?
05:10:52 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it does use large pages these days on modern kernels. and even if it doesn't, an mmap implementation that allocates everything to a *dense* (non-sparse) region, it can request large pages.
05:10:57 <ais523> shachaf: often but not always, unless you have extra variables tracking it
05:11:12 <b_jonas> `` ulimit -l # unit is kilobytes
05:11:26 <ais523> a good example is functions that return either a string literal or an allocated string
05:11:27 <shachaf> I feel like supporting multiple allocators is tricky, because many allocators don't have the same interface.
05:11:45 <ais523> well, the aim would be to define a standard interface for allocators
05:11:46 <shachaf> If you use an arena allocator, you don't want to walk your entire data structure and call free() on each node. You want to avoid walking it at all.
05:11:56 <ais523> C already has one (malloc/calloc/realloc/free), but it kind-of sucks
05:12:20 <ais523> oh, I meant in terms of general-purpose allocators; arena allocators often don't support frees at all
05:12:29 <ais523> you free the arena, not the nodes
05:12:39 <shachaf> Right, I meant free() would be a no-op (with a standard interface).
05:13:08 <ais523> but take the example of, say, asprintf
05:13:21 <ais523> (which returns malloc'ed memory of the size of the string)
05:13:33 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think that's a very good idea. the point is, we want to use sized allocators in programs that allocate a lot of small nodes on the heap, that is, allocators where the free function knows what size and alignment (and other parameters) were passsed to the allocate call, because this lets you allocate the small nodes with less memory overhead than when everything has to be tagged by at
05:13:41 <ais523> that kind-of assumes there's a global allocator, because you don't want to need to have a matching asprintf_free
05:14:11 <ais523> b_jonas: so this is something I've been thinking about a lot
05:14:18 <shachaf> Well, most of the time mallocing individual strings like that isn't so great anyway.
05:14:34 <b_jonas> admittedly you prefer not to allocate a lot of small nodes, or if you do, you want to allocate them from a pool specific to the structure with context about that structure for free, but the latter exactly means no single free interface without parameters
05:14:48 <ais523> is the correct malloc/free interface: a) the allocator supports an efficient API to ask about the size of allocated memory, so that the program doesn't have to track it; or b) free takes an argument for the size of the thing you allocated, so that the allocator doesn't have to track it?
05:15:05 <shachaf> free should take an argument for the size.
05:15:25 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you want both kinds
05:15:40 <b_jonas> and also allocators that take a pool argument that you have to pass to free too
05:15:43 <shachaf> Also, the most flexible realloc interface is kind of complicated, I think.
05:15:44 <ais523> currently most people track in both places which is just ridiculous overhead
05:15:45 <b_jonas> various different allocators
05:16:06 <shachaf> For example, you might want to give realloc two different possible sizes, one if it can grow in place and one if it can copy.
05:16:10 <b_jonas> especially ones that serve my pet peeve, pool allocators that let you use 32-bit pointers or indexes into a poool
05:16:43 <shachaf> And you might want to ask, with a malloc-style interface, "what's the actual size of the allocated memory?", since it might be bigger than what you asked for, and you might be able to use that.
05:16:45 <ais523> shachaf: I'm beginning to wonder whether "grow in place" is something that's worth optimising for at all
05:17:27 <ais523> b_jonas: anyway, one thing that crossed my mind is that if you're userspace managing the complete address space, you have control over what all the bits of a pointer mean, and, e.g. can encode the arena number in some of them
05:17:34 <shachaf> Well, not supporting realloc at all is another option, of course.
05:17:36 <ais523> or even the size of the allocation
05:17:39 <b_jonas> also I'd like a sized allocator where alloc and free takes four size paramters, not just two: the size, the alignment, how many bytes you want readable without a segfault but with arbitrary content before the allocated region, and how many bytes you want readable after. and I want a pony.
05:18:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you can do that too in an interpreter. but you have to be careful so it doesn't slow down dereferencing too much.
05:18:24 <ais523> shachaf: no, realloc is still helpful for large allocations, *but* if they're large enough to use mmap then the mremap doesn't require any copying behind the scenes, just a pagetable update
05:19:00 <shachaf> In that sort of situation maybe you're better off reserving the entire size you might need upfront, and committing it as necessary.
05:19:03 <shachaf> So the address doesn't change.
05:19:10 <b_jonas> ais523: some interpreters, like ruby 1.8 and some lisp or prolog interpreters, already do this by using a tag bit that makes the pointer not a pointer but an integer.
05:19:38 <ais523> b_jonas: I've had further thoughts about your four-argument alloc: on 64-bit systems, just hardcode the readable-before and readable-after arguments to something large like 4GB, the extra argument passing is going to slow it down way more than not being able to use the very ends of the address space
05:20:15 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't need as much as 4GB, but sure
05:20:44 <shachaf> I feel like you need at most 64 bytes before and after.
05:20:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, I want a full row of the pixmap
05:21:10 <ais523> my point is that providing a huge amount readable on both sides is very cheap on 64-bit processors
05:21:20 <b_jonas> because I want to reference the point above the currently iterated one
05:21:40 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you have a point that constants instead of an argument make sense.
05:21:42 <ais523> although, I think some people who use malloc would prefer to have unreadable data around the allocation to help them diagnose accidental read-out-of-bounds
05:22:23 <shachaf> Ah, I remember an allocator that had an option for putting every allocation at the end of a page (or at the beginning).
05:22:43 <ais523> the TLB would hate that :-D
05:23:21 <shachaf> Ah, this was it: https://ourmachinery.com/post/virtual-memory-tricks/
05:23:26 <b_jonas> also I heard an anecdote that (an older version of) Sicstus prolog used tag bit(s) in the pointers, but ran into trouble because it used *high* bits instead of low bits as tag, which was fine at the start but later when people started to have a gigabyte or more memory on 32-bit machines, it turned out to be not such a great design after all
05:24:23 <ais523> AMD went to specific pains to try to stop people doing that when designing x86-64, for the reason you mention, and yet apparently some people are doing it anyway
05:24:50 <b_jonas> ais523: this was back in the 32-bit era
05:25:01 <ais523> this despite the fact that 48-bit pointers have only just started to not be enough
05:25:32 <ais523> (Intel have stated plans to expand the pointer size to 57 bits, but AFAICT haven't yet released any processors with that size of pointer)
05:25:45 <shachaf> Well, maybe x86 will be dead by the time people use 72 TB of address space.
05:25:55 <b_jonas> ais523: haven't they already released on a few years ago? I'm not sure really
05:25:56 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80199&oldid=80152 * Quadril-Is * (+1044) Program that pushes 72
05:26:03 <shachaf> Oh, I thought several CPUs already used 56-bit addresses.
05:26:37 <ais523> Linux has support for them added already, but it tends to add support for processor features before the actual processor is released
05:27:07 <ais523> (57-bit x86-64, that is)
05:27:24 <ais523> page tables are 512 entries long on x86-64, so the pointer sizes go up 9 bits at a time
05:27:34 <shachaf> "The extension was first implemented in the Ice Lake processors,[2] and the 4.14 Linux kernel adds support for it.[3]"
05:27:48 <ais523> I haven't heard of Ice Lake
05:28:14 <ais523> OK, that's recent enough that I'm not surprised I missed it
05:28:28 <shachaf> Apparently new Intel chips are using 12-way set associative L1D caches.
05:29:12 <shachaf> Maybe because (apparently) with their VIPT cache design, the cache size is the number of ways * the page size, so the only way to grow the cache is to increase the number of ways.
05:29:51 <b_jonas> I thought that was impossible
05:30:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: and yes, that's the problem with x86, no way to guarantee that ALL pages on the system will be larger than 4k sized
05:30:29 <b_jonas> so the L1 cache can only be 32k
05:30:37 <ais523> growing the number of sets by a factor X would give you a cache that requires less space on the chip, but would be more likely to evict things due to set collisions, compared to growing the number of ways by a factor X
05:31:03 <shachaf> But they can't just grow the number of sets.
05:31:05 <b_jonas> it makes sense, it's just one of the sad realities we have to face because of historical binary compatibility
05:31:06 <ais523> b_jonas: in theory there's no reason why the L1 cache and page size should have anything to do with each other, although I gather that Intel have some sort of design that links them
05:31:33 <shachaf> ais523: I think it's the natural thing with VIPT caches, which I think are very standard.
05:31:47 <shachaf> Though I think some people have gotten around it with trickery.
05:32:08 <ais523> the L1 cache is caching virtual addresses, it's the TLB that caches virtual→physical correspondences
05:32:46 <b_jonas> ais523: I think there is a good reason, in that you want the L1 cache to have very low latency, as in just a few cycles (otherwise it's an L2 cache, not an L1 cache; and also ideally the ability to do two simultaneous reads), and for that you want to pick the cache line before the physical address physically arrives from the TLB cache
05:33:01 <shachaf> Yes, but in order to get cache lookups fast enough, you want to start doing the lookup in parallel with TLB translation.
05:33:10 <shachaf> So you can only use virtual bits of the address for it.
05:33:24 <b_jonas> ais523: no, afaiu the L1 cache is caching physical addresses. it has to, because the process can write the same memory mapped at two different virtual addresses
05:33:25 <ais523> b_jonas: L1 cache typically works purely off the virtual address for that reason
05:33:33 <ais523> it's L2 and L3 that work off physical addresses
05:33:53 <b_jonas> it has to determine the cache line from virtual address, but then verify that the physical address matches or else it can produce incorrect results
05:33:58 <ais523> hmm, maybe this is one of those Intel versus AMD decisions?
05:34:07 <shachaf> I don't know of any x86 CPUs using VIVT sorts of L1 caches.
05:34:09 <b_jonas> at least for writable memory
05:34:16 <shachaf> Which I think is what you're describing?
05:34:27 <shachaf> I mean L1D, maybe L1I is different.
05:34:30 <b_jonas> maybe the L1C cache works with virtual addresses, because L1C can afford to be very slow and flush everything when a cached page is written
05:34:47 <ais523> part of the problem is that the information about this that you find online has highly varying ages which often aren't clear
05:34:56 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think it's an intel vs AMD thing
05:35:24 <shachaf> I asked about this on Twitter and it turned into a long thread with a hundred replies from some people who have more of an idea than I do.
05:35:27 <ais523> yes, L1C shouldn't be expecting writes at all, and I think it's generally accepted that a write to code memory is one of those things that can reasonably cause a full pipeline stall
05:35:33 <shachaf> But my conclusion was that it's pretty complicated.
05:35:45 <b_jonas> but I admit I don't really understand this, so all I'm saying is just guesses that you shouldn't trust
05:35:58 <b_jonas> ais523: accepted and well documented
05:36:26 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, I mean it's documented, but people also agree that this is a decision that should have been made
05:36:27 <b_jonas> the only reason x86 even has to _detect_ writes to cached code pages is for historical compatibility with 386
05:36:36 <ais523> whereas some things are documented but look bizarre
05:37:36 <b_jonas> like the thing where intel and AMD recommends different instructions as multibyte NOPs. if they can agree on all the instruction set, why can't they agree on that? sure, their instruction decoders are very different, but still
05:38:05 <b_jonas> couldn't they agree on something that's fast on both brands?
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05:38:51 <ais523> I think there's a "core" of NOP options which should be fast on both, but it only gets you up to 10 bytes or so
05:39:34 <b_jonas> right, but you want NOPs up to 15 byte long for padding
05:39:49 <ais523> like, it's perfecly legal to put 5 CS: prefixes on a NOP, and Intel and AMD processors will decode this, but the decoders don't like it so neither processor manufacturer recommends you do that
05:40:05 <ais523> I think 5, might be limited to 4, I can't remember
05:40:08 <b_jonas> yes, this is about efficient NOPs, not valid nops
05:40:39 <ais523> having stared at instruction encodings for several days now, I'm pretty sure that 66 logically "should" be the fastest prefix
05:40:59 <b_jonas> anyway, this is an interesting conversation but I really ought to sleep
05:41:06 <ais523> followed by F2/F3, but F3 NOP already means something else
05:42:05 <ais523> this is the sort of sequence that would often be repurposed as a nop with side effects
05:42:53 <ais523> `asm .byte 0xf3, 0x0f, 0x1e, 0xfa
05:43:14 <ais523> does that fit the NOP encoding? it's meant to be backwards-compatible as a NOP
05:43:40 <ais523> ah no, NOP would be 0F 1F
05:44:11 <ais523> maybe it's an undocumented 8-bit NOP
05:44:22 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1e, 0xfa
05:44:49 <ais523> noe I'm really confused
05:46:05 <ais523> FA is 11 / 111 / 010, so that's "direct register access, R=7, B=2"; B is used as the input for a 1-argument instruction so 2 = %edx makes sense
05:46:47 <ais523> but R is set to 7 when it should be 0 according to the documentation, and the LSB of the opcode is 0 when it should be 1 according to the documentation
05:47:21 <ais523> probably Intel is hanging on to a whole 15 undocumented NOP combinations so that they can allocate them for instructions that need to retroactively become NOPs
05:47:43 <ais523> err, backwards-compatibly be treated as NOPs
05:47:57 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `nop' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `nop'
05:47:58 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1e, 0072
05:48:16 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1e, 0002
05:48:22 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1e, 0302
05:49:13 <shachaf> I think i misremembered how modr/m bytes work.
05:49:56 <ais523> top two bits are an enum that specify a) whether there's a memory access involved (only 11 doesn't access memory), b) whether there's a constant being added to the memory address and if so how many bytes it's written as
05:50:25 <ais523> next three bits are R, which is a register argument to the instruction (always a register) if it takes 2 or more arguments, and part of the opcode if it takes only 1 argument
05:50:32 <shachaf> Right, I confused 11 with 00.
05:50:51 <ais523> bottom three bits are usually B, which is also a register argument to the instruction, and always used
05:51:04 <ais523> but the values of 101 and 100 are special cases
05:52:06 <ais523> 101 means that there's a SIB byte, used to specify more complicated addressing (it corresponds to %esp, so you can't read from stack memory without a SIB byte)
05:52:47 <ais523> 100 normally means %ebp, but the special case of 00 / xxx/ 100 means that there's no register at all, it's using a 32-bit immediate as the address instead
05:53:05 <ais523> so if you want an access via %ebp you always have to explicitly give an offset from it
05:53:10 <shachaf> I wrote an encoder for all this a couple of years ago, but clearly the details have slipped my memory.
05:53:20 <HackEso> 0: 67 0f 1f 03 nopl (%ebx)
05:53:30 <HackEso> 0: 0f 1f 45 00 nopl 0x0(%rbp)
05:53:33 <HackEso> 0: 0f 1f 04 24 nopl (%rsp)
05:53:55 <shachaf> %rsp also corresponds to r12 or r13 or so, which has the same encoding issue.
05:54:22 <ais523> because the fourth bit of R and B is in the REX prefix, not part of the ModRM byte
05:55:05 <ais523> `asm rex.x nopl (%rax)
05:55:06 <HackEso> 0: 42 0f 1f 00 rex.X nopl (%rax)
05:55:29 <ais523> this is the one case of encoding that confuses me
05:55:37 <ais523> `asm rex.x nopl (%rax, %r12, 1)
05:55:39 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: same type of prefix used twice \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `nopl (%rax,%r12,1)'
05:55:44 <ais523> `asm nopl (%rax, %r12, 1)
05:55:45 <HackEso> 0: 42 0f 1f 04 20 nopl (%rax,%r12,1)
05:55:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80200&oldid=80161 * Quadril-Is * (+9) /* Something */
05:56:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80201&oldid=80200 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /* Something */
05:56:22 <ais523> normally %rsp as X is used to write a null SIB byte that does nothing (this is only useful in the case when you want %rsp as B, as far as I can tell, or to pad out space)
05:56:39 <ais523> but %r12 as X is *not* a special case, it actually uses %r12
05:56:46 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0x04, 0x20
05:56:47 <HackEso> 0: 0f 1f 04 20 nopl (%rax,%riz,1)
05:57:05 <ais523> huh, %riz, that's a new one (must be "integer zero")
05:57:37 <shachaf> Yes, I remember this. I think the assembler doesn't even accept it as input.
05:58:11 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: bad register name `%riz' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `nopl (%rax,%riz,1)'
05:58:22 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0004, 0240
05:58:23 <HackEso> 0: 0f 1f 04 a0 nopl (%rax,%riz,4)
05:59:02 <ais523> so ModRM+SIB bytes of 00xxx100 00100yyy and the single ModRM byte 00xxxyyy are identical in *almost* every context
05:59:08 <ais523> except when you have a rex.x prefix
05:59:36 <ais523> I hate this sort of special case, because i'm hoping to have a domain-specific language for instruction encoding and this sort of thing just blows it up
06:00:07 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid character '(' in mnemonic \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid character '(' in mnemonic
06:00:17 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: expecting scale factor of 1, 2, 4, or 8: got `' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `nopl (%rax,,1)'
06:00:35 <HackEso> 0: 0f 1f 04 05 00 00 00 00 nopl 0x0(,%rax,1)
06:00:43 <ais523> what an inconsistent syntax :_D
06:02:00 <ais523> also I didn't even realise whitespace was significant there
06:02:00 <shachaf> I wonder why they introduced riz.
06:02:14 <shachaf> Whitespace is significant?
06:02:21 <shachaf> Oh, those are different errors.
06:02:23 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid character '(' in mnemonic \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid character '(' in mnemonic
06:02:48 <ais523> I have been tempted to invent my own asm syntax, with = signs after output arguments
06:02:56 <ais523> so that I don't keep forgetting which way the arguments go
06:03:09 <shachaf> I'm used to AT&T syntax but I should probably switch to Intel syntax.
06:03:19 <ais523> would also help differentiate between the two encodings of register-register MOV
06:03:20 <shachaf> Since that way I can just read the Intel manual.
06:03:53 <shachaf> I don't like the whole "dword ptr [...]" thing in Intel syntax.
06:04:30 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x8b, 0xc1, 0x89, 0xc8
06:04:32 <HackEso> 0: 8b c1 mov %ecx,%eax \ 2: 89 c8 mov %ecx,%eax
06:04:56 <ais523> there are probably no processors where this difference matters, but it still feels wrong that you can't specify
06:05:35 <ais523> I like the way AT&T syntax gives instructions length suffixes, but remembering the suffixes is hard
06:05:45 <shachaf> I might just use mov64 and so on.
06:05:56 <ais523> yes, I think that's an improvement
06:06:03 <shachaf> That's what I did in my C library.
06:06:11 <ais523> or logarithms, mov3 for bytes, mov4 for words, mov5 for dwords, mov6 for qwords
06:06:45 <shachaf> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { return x; }' | gcc -x c /dev/stdin -o /tmp/foo.o && objdump -d /tmp/foo.o | grep mov
06:06:48 <HackEso> /usr/bin/ld: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/8/../../../x86_64-linux-gnu/Scrt1.o: in function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
06:06:51 <ais523> the better reason to put the width on the opcode, though, is then you can stop changing the name of a register every time you access it with a different width
06:06:55 <shachaf> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { return x; }' | gcc -c -x c /dev/stdin -o /tmp/foo.o && objdump -d /tmp/foo.o | grep mov
06:06:56 <HackEso> 1:48 89 e5 mov %rsp,%rbp \ 4:48 89 7d f8 mov %rdi,-0x8(%rbp) \ 8:48 8b 45 f8 mov -0x8(%rbp),%rax
06:07:09 <shachaf> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { return x; }' | gcc -Os -c -x c /dev/stdin -o /tmp/foo.o && objdump -d /tmp/foo.o | grep mov
06:07:11 <HackEso> 0:48 89 f8 mov %rdi,%rax
06:07:17 <shachaf> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { return x; }' | clang -Os -c -x c /dev/stdin -o /tmp/foo.o && objdump -d /tmp/foo.o | grep mov
06:07:18 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: clang: command not found
06:07:36 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC gcc and clang use the same assembler as each other, at least on Linux, so you'll get the same output
06:07:52 <shachaf> clang doesn't use its own assembler?
06:08:27 <ais523> ah no, llvm-as works on LLVM bitcode, not x86-64 instructions
06:08:58 <shachaf> What does llvm use on Windows?
06:09:10 <shachaf> I thought it had its own assembler.
06:09:16 <shachaf> It has llvm-mc which includes an assembler, right?
06:09:28 <ais523> I guess it could just use masm
06:09:41 <ais523> but shipping an assembler would also make sense
06:09:42 <shachaf> Doesn't it support inline assembly?
06:09:52 <ais523> yes but it's literally quoted into the assembler input
06:09:55 <shachaf> Which I'd expect to be portable rather than use the platform syntax.
06:12:19 <ais523> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { asm("sal %0, $1 // test" : "+r" (x)); return x }' | gcc -S -o /tmp/t.s; cat /tmp/t.s
06:12:21 <HackEso> gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated. \ cat: /tmp/t.s: No such file or directory
06:12:30 <ais523> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { asm("sal %0, $1 // test" : "+r" (x)); return x }' | gcc -S -o /tmp/t.s -x c /dev/stdin; cat /tmp/t.s
06:12:31 <HackEso> /dev/stdin: In function ‘foo’: \ /dev/stdin:1:66: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘}’ token \ cat: /tmp/t.s: No such file or directory
06:13:02 <ais523> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { asm("sal %0, $1 // test" : "+r" (x)); return x; }' | gcc -S -o /tmp/t.s -x c /dev/stdin; cat /tmp/t.s
06:13:03 <HackEso> .file"stdin" \ .text \ .globlfoo \ .typefoo, @function \ foo: \ .LFB0: \ .cfi_startproc \ pushq%rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa_offset 16 \ .cfi_offset 6, -16 \ movq%rsp, %rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa_register 6 \ movq%rdi, -8(%rbp) \ movq-8(%rbp), %rax \ #APP \ # 1 "/dev/stdin" 1 \ sal %rax, $1 // test \ # 0 "" 2 \ #NO_APP \ movq%rax, -8(%rbp) \ movq-8(%rbp), %rax \ popq%rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa 7, 8 \ ret \ .cfi_endproc \ .LFE0: \ .size
06:13:11 <ais523> see, the comment got copied into the output file
06:13:30 <ais523> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { asm("%0!" : "+r" (x)); return x; }' | gcc -S -o /tmp/t.s -x c /dev/stdin; cat /tmp/t.s
06:13:31 <HackEso> .file"stdin" \ .text \ .globlfoo \ .typefoo, @function \ foo: \ .LFB0: \ .cfi_startproc \ pushq%rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa_offset 16 \ .cfi_offset 6, -16 \ movq%rsp, %rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa_register 6 \ movq%rdi, -8(%rbp) \ movq-8(%rbp), %rax \ #APP \ # 1 "/dev/stdin" 1 \ %rax! \ # 0 "" 2 \ #NO_APP \ movq%rax, -8(%rbp) \ movq-8(%rbp), %rax \ popq%rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa 7, 8 \ ret \ .cfi_endproc \ .LFE0: \ .sizefoo, .-foo \ .
06:13:48 <ais523> and the syntax doesn't have to make any sense
06:13:50 <shachaf> I just meant that I suspect the assembly syntax that clang lets you embed is consistent between Linux and Windows, so I doubt it just uses masm.
06:14:08 <ais523> I suspect it's different
06:14:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80202&oldid=80201 * Quadril-Is * (-9) /* Something */
06:15:16 <shachaf> Besides, it supports cross-compiling, right?
06:16:28 <shachaf> `` echo 'long foo(long x) { asm(".syntax intel\nmov eax, eax" : "+r" (x)); return x; }' | gcc -c -S -o /tmp/t.s -x c /dev/stdin; cat /tmp/t.s
06:16:29 <HackEso> .file"stdin" \ .text \ .globlfoo \ .typefoo, @function \ foo: \ .LFB0: \ .cfi_startproc \ pushq%rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa_offset 16 \ .cfi_offset 6, -16 \ movq%rsp, %rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa_register 6 \ movq%rdi, -8(%rbp) \ movq-8(%rbp), %rax \ #APP \ # 1 "/dev/stdin" 1 \ .syntax intel \ mov eax, eax \ # 0 "" 2 \ #NO_APP \ movq%rax, -8(%rbp) \ movq-8(%rbp), %rax \ popq%rbp \ .cfi_def_cfa 7, 8 \ ret \ .cfi_endproc \ .LFE0: \
06:16:55 <shachaf> For some reason I thought it restored the syntax to att automatically. I guess not.
06:17:11 <ais523> shachaf: I just checked Clang's documentation about asm commands
06:17:30 <ais523> it is a literal hyperlink to gcc's documentation about asm commands, on gcc's website
06:18:15 <ais523> so I'd expect it to work the same way; if it worked differently it should at least be documented?
06:21:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80203&oldid=80202 * Quadril-Is * (+5) /* Something */
06:23:27 <ais523> hmm, some searches imply that clang's inline asm always uses AT&T syntax, even on Windows, so probably it does have its own assembler
06:23:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80204&oldid=80203 * Quadril-Is * (+8) /* Something */
06:24:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80205&oldid=80204 * Quadril-Is * (+36) /* Something */
06:24:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80206&oldid=80205 * Quadril-Is * (-30) /* Something */
06:24:49 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: type: llvm-mc: not found
06:28:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80207&oldid=80206 * Quadril-Is * (+169) /* Something */
06:29:47 <shachaf> It seems ridiculous to me that there's any compiler anywhere that doesn't support cross-compiling.
06:31:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80208&oldid=80207 * Quadril-Is * (+149) /* Invalid links */
06:32:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80209&oldid=80208 * Quadril-Is * (+6) /* Special characters */
06:32:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80210&oldid=80209 * Quadril-Is * (+6) /* Special characters */
06:33:59 <ais523> shachaf: presumably, to cross-compile, any inline asm would have to be written for the target platform
06:34:35 <shachaf> (Though Windows and Linux can share x86-64 assembly.)
06:34:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80211&oldid=80210 * Quadril-Is * (+20) /* Special starting things */
06:34:52 <ais523> actually, my experience is that compilers themselves normally support cross-compiling, but the toolchains surrounding them (especially the build tools) often don't
06:35:40 <ais523> Windows and Linux have different calling conventions, so you could share inline asm but only as long as it didn't call functions and wasn't a function itself
06:36:12 <shachaf> Toolchains and build tools should definitely support cross-compiling.
06:36:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80212&oldid=80211 * Quadril-Is * (-25) /* Special starting things */
06:38:59 <ais523> with compilers it's even harder because you have three platforms to deal with (compiler build, compiler run = target program build, target program run)
06:39:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80213&oldid=80212 * Quadril-Is * (+14) /* Special starting things */
06:39:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80214&oldid=80213 * Quadril-Is * (-97) /* Bad title */
06:39:54 <ais523> I managed to get C-INTERCAL to support compiler build != compiler run (it was hard, and involves what is in effect two independent autoconf scripts)
06:40:19 <ais523> it doesn't directly support target build != target run yet, though
06:47:42 <ais523> btw, I figured out why sharing libc.so between a lot of programs is helpful: it's not specifically to save memory nowadays, but to increase the chance that commonly used bits of libc are in the L2 cache
06:47:59 <ais523> (also, the L3 cache, and main memory)
06:48:18 <ais523> so program startup is faster because it doesn't have to copy in libc from disk every time, like it would in a statically linked program
06:48:28 <shachaf> Are cache misses on libc really a significant part of the runtime of programs?
06:48:49 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if they were, for small programs that run quickly
06:49:09 <ais523> disk access is so much slower than just about anything else
06:49:10 <shachaf> My guess is that it's negligible for almost all programs.
06:49:16 <shachaf> But it would be interesting to measure.
06:49:43 <ais523> I wonder how you evict a particular file from memory altogether on Linux
06:49:56 <ais523> (ideally without affecting the rest of the system in the process)
06:50:06 <shachaf> I only know how to evict the entire cache.
06:51:07 <ais523> you could get the file out of L3 cache by mmapping it, faulting it in, then clflushing every cache line in it
06:51:15 <ais523> (that will also take it out of L1 and L2 caches)
06:51:28 <ais523> getting it out of main memory seems harder, though (especially as you just faulted it in there!)
06:51:46 <shachaf> Maybe if you write to it with O_DIRECT.
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07:04:08 <ais523> I've been looking for a way in the Linux kernel sources, but haven't found one (that said, I'm terrible at finding anything in there)
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07:56:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80215&oldid=80183 * Hakerh400 * (+259) +[[Trivial]]
07:58:59 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80216&oldid=80215 * Hakerh400 * (+25) /* Trivial */
07:59:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80217&oldid=80216 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Trivial */
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08:55:44 <b_jonas> "<ais523> actually, my experience is that compilers themselves normally support cross-compiling, but the toolchains surrounding them (especially the build tools) often don't" => this yes, except it's even more the system libraries than the build tools. gcc and clang in theory works fine on or for windows, but it's very hard to actually use them on windows because of lack of a good toolchain that works
08:55:50 <b_jonas> with them. and gcc/clang, for some reason, still only supports the ABI where long is 64-bit on windows, so you can't just mix and match it with native windows toolchains. it's strange, you'd think it would be trivial to add a separate mode to them where long is 32-bit long (plus implement the remaining builtin functions and pragmas for msvc compatibility), but that's not happening.
08:56:53 <b_jonas> I am sort of hoping that https://ziglang.org/ will fix this: it promises to ship a working C compiler toolchain based on clang and a custom libc to windows, but it does not, at least right now, try to ship a C++ compiler toolchain
08:58:44 <b_jonas> "I wonder how you evict a particular file from memory altogether on Linux" => perhaps with fadvise or posix_madvise, or by truncating it to zero length
08:58:59 <b_jonas> but that won't work for libc
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09:04:52 <b_jonas> ais523: opening the library and then posix_fadvise(.., .., .., POSIX_FADV_DONTNEED) might work, but this is only good for read-only files like a shared library, otherwise it has the side effect of possibly discarding cached writes
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12:15:24 <b_jonas> hey #estoeric, I have a question about Android UI since I don't generally use Android computers. you know how Android generally has three buttons at the bottom of the screen, these used to be physical buttons but these days they're just software ones? have they changed this such that the third button besides back and home screen is no longer the menu button, when did they change this, and how could they
12:15:30 <b_jonas> change something without breaking compat with all existing third party programs?
12:16:05 <LKoen> I think mostly the third party programs don't use the buttons
12:16:21 <LKoen> like, your program may provide a functionality that must be called when the user hits the button "return"
12:17:07 <LKoen> but the program itself just provide a functionality that corresponds to "return" and whether the user presses the button or returns by some other way is unknown
12:17:16 <LKoen> I meant "back" not "return"
12:17:40 <b_jonas> and does that apply to the menu button as well?
12:17:48 <LKoen> on my phone the third button is "view all opened windows"
12:17:54 <LKoen> I've never had a "menu"
12:19:10 <LKoen> but then I haven't had an android for very long. I used to have a phone with 12 buttons that could only send text messages and phone calls
12:24:20 <myname> b_jonas: do you perhaps use a modified android version provided by the manufactorer of your phone?
12:25:00 <myname> i vaguely remember switching longpress and single press on some of those buttons on some ui modifications
12:25:09 <myname> but it should be reversible via settings
12:27:41 <b_jonas> myname: my phone doesn't have any Android version thank you very much
12:46:50 <fizzie> There's three versions of Android navigation that have been in the stock AOSP builds: 3-button navigation, 2-button navigation and gesture navigation.
12:47:32 <fizzie> I don't remember exactly which version included which one, and which ones are still available. I think at least one of my phones still offers all three. (It's a configurable setting.)
12:50:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: what does 3-button navigation mean?
12:50:15 <b_jonas> so this is still configurable? ok
12:50:45 <fizzie> It's the one that has the three buttons "back", "home" and "recent apps" (which is officially called "overview", but I don't think that is such a well-known term).
12:50:56 <fizzie> I've never seen the third button to be "menu" either.
12:51:29 <fizzie> But manufacturers do tend to do all kinds of UI customizations. I think I had a test device with four buttons once.
12:53:01 <fizzie> Looking around, though, apparently they did used to have that in AOSP too, just longer ago than when I got into Android (pre-Lollipop).
12:53:53 <fizzie> As for "without breaking compat", I don't imagine they did, but it *has* been a long time now.
12:54:07 <fizzie> https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/menus "Beginning with Android 3.0 (API level 11), Android-powered devices are no longer required to provide a dedicated Menu button. With this change, Android apps should migrate away from a dependence on the traditional 6-item menu panel and instead provide an app bar to present common user actions."
12:54:44 <myname> well, it can only "break compatibility" to the user, the apps aren't really aware of the navigation besides some signals
12:55:14 <fizzie> I mean, they can expect there to be a menu button and not provide any other way to launch some functionality.
12:55:23 <fizzie> So I think that'd be pretty much a breaking change.
12:55:50 <fizzie> s/can/could, back then,/
12:56:31 <myname> ah the three-dots-one, if i remember correctly, that was a per-app thing. i have no idea if it is actually removed
12:56:48 <fizzie> It wasn't a three-dots initially.
12:59:45 <fizzie> AFAICT, it was one of the three primary buttons (in the pre-ICS days), with a menu symbol. Then it got shifted to be an "overflow" three dots thing (in *addition* to the three main buttons, only shown if the app defines an options menu), and then gotten rid of completely.
13:03:11 <fizzie> https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/menus#options-menu "Where the items in your options menu appear on the screen depends on the version for which you've developed your application: ..."
13:04:03 <fizzie> That makes me wonder what would happen if I could still find an app with targetSdk=10 and run it on a modern phone, would it provide some system UI affordance to show the menu.
13:06:02 <fizzie> If it does (or at least did for a while), then I guess that's the way they could make that change without breaking compatibility: by treating apps that target a version of the platform where a menu button was still mandatory differently. (If you declare targetSdk >= 11, you presumably promise it will work even without a menu button.)
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16:14:09 <esowiki> [[Trivial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80218&oldid=80198 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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16:21:08 <esowiki> [[User:Ivancr72]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80219&oldid=53157 * Ivancr72 * (-208) Replaced content with "im cringe"
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16:35:50 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80220&oldid=80058 * ThatCookie * (+272) Added Variables
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20:05:19 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80221&oldid=80193 * Digital Hunter * (+1054) /* 99 bottles of beer */
20:31:11 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic/Numbers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80222 * Digital Hunter * (+5576) Hi, if it's not my place to create such a page let me know and I'll revert it! Or you can just delete it. I'm not sure quite what sort of category belongs here; the Underload page has Programming techniques but I don't feel that's appropriate here.
20:33:47 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80223&oldid=80222 * Digital Hunter * (+3)
20:34:26 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80224&oldid=80221 * Digital Hunter * (+315) /* Numbers */
20:34:51 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80225&oldid=80224 * Digital Hunter * (-38) /* Info to come */ The list of numbers has arrived!
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20:47:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:NyaScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80226 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+347) /* Undocumented behaviour */ new section
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21:21:13 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80227 * The-Ennemy * (+286) Created page with " ==About this tutorial== ==About Brainfuck== ==About asm2bf== ==Installing and "Hello World!"== ==Basic concepts== ==Conditionals== ==Memory model: taperam and stack==..."
21:30:52 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80228&oldid=80227 * The-Ennemy * (+391) /* About this tutorial */
21:41:33 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80229&oldid=80228 * The-Ennemy * (+147) /* About this tutorial */
21:44:29 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80230&oldid=80229 * The-Ennemy * (+2) /* Stack access */
21:46:15 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80231&oldid=80230 * The-Ennemy * (+179) /* About this tutorial */
22:12:27 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80232&oldid=80225 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Numbers */ my base conversion was bugged! Surprisingly not a PTS mistake, but one in understanding how concatenation works
22:13:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80233&oldid=80232 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ updated to my realisation of the base conversion macro bug
22:19:22 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80234&oldid=80231 * The-Ennemy * (+1370) /* Installing and "Hello World!" */
22:29:42 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80235&oldid=79871 * Digital Hunter * (+638) /* Implementations */ Added an entry for Parse this sic.
22:30:39 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80236&oldid=80235 * Digital Hunter * (+27) /* Parse this sic */
22:32:35 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80237&oldid=80234 * The-Ennemy * (+1017) /* Installing and "Hello World!" */
22:39:49 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80238&oldid=80237 * The-Ennemy * (+304) /* Installing and "Hello World!" */
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23:48:25 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80239&oldid=80238 * The-Ennemy * (+1178)
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23:52:03 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80240&oldid=80239 * The-Ennemy * (+189) /* Basic concepts */
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00:01:21 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80241&oldid=80240 * The-Ennemy * (+661) /* Basic concepts */
00:07:16 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80242&oldid=80241 * The-Ennemy * (+508) /* Basic concepts */
00:19:47 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80243&oldid=80242 * The-Ennemy * (+922) /* Basic concepts */
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00:44:23 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80244&oldid=80243 * The-Ennemy * (+2426) /* Basic concepts */
01:20:45 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80245&oldid=66954 * TonyBrown148 * (+115) /* SORRY, BUT THIS LANGUAGE ISN'T DESIGNED FOR YOU */
01:21:13 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80246&oldid=80245 * TonyBrown148 * (-167) /* 127 */
01:25:02 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/127]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80247 * TonyBrown148 * (+465) Created page with "'''129''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:TonyBrown148]]. It is a language with '''1''' main stack, '''2''' symbols, and '''9''' operations. ==Operations== {..."
01:29:08 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/127]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80248&oldid=80247 * TonyBrown148 * (-1)
01:29:34 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80249&oldid=80236 * Digital Hunter * (-665) /* Implementations */ I'm so sorry -- that program I added didn't work. The section for Parse this sic has been removed for now.
02:00:19 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/127]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80250&oldid=80248 * TonyBrown148 * (+962)
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02:14:54 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/127]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80251&oldid=80250 * TonyBrown148 * (+540)
02:27:56 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/127]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80252&oldid=80251 * TonyBrown148 * (+547)
02:28:06 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/129]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80253 * TonyBrown148 * (+2513) Created page with "'''129''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:TonyBrown148]]. It is a language with '''1''' main stack, '''2''' symbols, and '''9''' operations. In '''129''' the..."
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03:23:52 <esowiki> [[User:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80254&oldid=79874 * Razetime * (+124) added Limn
03:36:27 <esowiki> [[Vyxal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80255&oldid=80148 * Razetime * (+8) small link edit
03:40:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80256&oldid=79739 * Razetime * (+371) Razetime
04:35:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80257&oldid=80256 * AnimaLibera * (+471) We should get an Imperative paradigm category, 3
05:21:24 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148/129]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80258&oldid=80253 * TonyBrown148 * (+0)
06:04:09 <esowiki> [[129]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80259 * TonyBrown148 * (+2787) Create the page.
06:49:39 <esowiki> [[RomanF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80260&oldid=80173 * Gilbert189 * (+2) /* Conversion to Arabic numeral */
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07:21:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80261&oldid=80196 * Gilbert189 * (+13) /* R */
07:24:24 <esowiki> [[RomanF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80262&oldid=80260 * Gilbert189 * (+14)
07:39:10 <esowiki> [[129]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80263&oldid=80259 * TonyBrown148 * (-32) Version 0.1.0
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08:21:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80264&oldid=80261 * TonyBrown148 * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */ Add my esolang, 129.
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10:21:55 <esowiki> [[129]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80265&oldid=80263 * Hakerh400 * (+144) Add interpreter
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11:20:10 <lambdabot> EGLL 241050Z 11009KT 1000 R09R/0900 SN BKN002 OVC005 00/M00 Q0995 BECMG 2000 -SN
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11:25:42 <int-e> snow leads to ice, ice leads to slipping, slipping leads to sprains :-/
11:41:26 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just exciting because it doesn't normally happen (here).
11:42:19 * int-e is currently typing with one hand because of snow
11:42:39 <int-e> so forgive my lack of excitement
11:51:30 <fizzie> Fair enough. But here it's going to all melt before that becomes an issue. #NotAllSnow
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14:18:33 <esowiki> [[Segmentation fault]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80266 * Gilbert189 * (+442) Created page with "Segmentation fault is [[Nope.]] but every "Nope." is changed with a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmentation_fault segmentation fault.] ==Implementation== ===C=== #includ..."
14:26:01 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80267&oldid=80174 * Gilbert189 * (+25)
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14:44:47 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80268&oldid=80244 * The-Ennemy * (+141) /* Basic concepts */
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15:16:36 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80269&oldid=80233 * Digital Hunter * (+288) /* Three-param */
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16:57:14 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80270&oldid=80269 * Digital Hunter * (+5417) /* Example programs */
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17:00:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80271&oldid=79968 * Digital Hunter * (+254) /* Writing style and formality */ new section
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17:15:26 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80272&oldid=80099 * Digital Hunter * (+193)
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17:18:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80273&oldid=80101 * Digital Hunter * (+351) /* "Wanna talk?" */ new section
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17:27:52 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80274&oldid=80249 * Digital Hunter * (+656) /* Implementations */ Added an entry for Parse this sic -- this one works for sure. Sorry about all the recent edits.
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17:45:01 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80275&oldid=80270 * Digital Hunter * (+591) /* Deadfish interpreter */
17:55:10 <esowiki> [[SQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80276 * CatLooks * (+5876) Created page with "'''SQ''' is esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatLooks|CatLooks]] ''without conditional jumps''. The file with code must be exactly 32 Kb. Because a file is bina..."
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18:36:20 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80277&oldid=79568 * Quintopia * (+21) fix proglang box
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19:21:05 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80278&oldid=80272 * Digital Hunter * (+3)
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22:33:28 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80279&oldid=80275 * Digital Hunter * (+645) /* Example programs */ factorial
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00:40:58 <zzo38> It look like Wizards of the Coast had now made the change that I had made earlier for my own cards, which is that {S} comes from any snow source, not only a snow permanent (if this is what the release notes are meaning). Previously, they had done so a rule for copies of non-card spells entering the battlefield, too.
00:41:46 <shachaf> They're bringing back snow-covered lands?
00:41:54 <esowiki> [[129]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80280&oldid=80265 * TonyBrown148 * (+6) Version 0.2.0. Notice that the I/O commands are changed.
00:44:28 <esowiki> [[129]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80281&oldid=80280 * TonyBrown148 * (+0) /* Cat program */ Update.
00:50:52 <esowiki> [[129]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80282&oldid=80281 * TonyBrown148 * (+60) update the explanation
01:18:21 <esowiki> [[Vague]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80283&oldid=79296 * Quintopia * (+300) links to implementations (coming soon)
01:21:44 <esowiki> [[Vague/AnimaLibera]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80284 * Quintopia * (+3326) created page
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01:23:13 <esowiki> [[Vague/IFcoltransG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80285 * Quintopia * (+4638) created page
01:23:53 <esowiki> [[Vague/IFcoltransG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80286&oldid=80285 * Quintopia * (+39) formatting
01:24:58 <esowiki> [[Vague/Quintopia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80287 * Quintopia * (+6017) created page
01:25:27 <esowiki> [[Vague/Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80288&oldid=80287 * Quintopia * (+20) formatting
01:29:45 <esowiki> [[Vague]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80289&oldid=80283 * Quintopia * (+143) /* Implementations */
01:30:01 <esowiki> [[Vague]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80290&oldid=80289 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Implementations */
01:33:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80291&oldid=80271 * Digital Hunter * (+269) /* your base conversion is flawed */ new section
01:52:45 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80292&oldid=80279 * Digital Hunter * (+0) I was wrong about my having-been-wrong about base conversion! I had it down the first time!
01:55:38 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80293&oldid=80274 * Digital Hunter * (+4) /* Parse this sic */ Really sorry. I'm done now.
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02:33:09 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80294&oldid=80292 * Digital Hunter * (+699) /* Factorial */
02:39:32 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80295&oldid=80294 * Digital Hunter * (+547) /* Factorial */
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10:32:55 <int-e> fungot: how do you manage without hands?
10:32:55 <fungot> int-e: btw fnord, there are some calls for which we can be here for another 2 hours or so.
10:33:26 <int-e> fungot: dang, I don't have that long
10:34:13 <int-e> oh, is nobody else engaging fungot, again? sad times, what have we come to...
10:34:23 <fungot> shachaf: great stuff gregorr...
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10:46:42 <fizzie> I didn't know it does a random random word if you don't provide any arguments.
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11:29:40 <b_jonas> https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1350887473426161669 “Wait: I have used the wonderful ASCII character U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT only SIX times in 24 891 tweets, less than any other printable ASCII‽ What an unworthy inventor of Unlambda I am! This character deserves `acclamation`!”
11:40:09 <int-e> Hmm I forgot how ``ci`ci works.
11:44:58 <int-e> ``ci`ci -> ``i(`[]`ci)`ci -> `(`[]`ci)`ci -> ``ci`ci, inventing some notation for the captured continuation
11:44:59 <HackEso> `ci`ci? No such file or directory
11:45:46 <int-e> (the [] is a hole)
11:46:56 <shachaf> Let's see, is CPS call/cc "callcc f k = f k k"?
11:47:49 <shachaf> That would make callcc id = (\k -> k k), I think.
11:50:10 <shachaf> Which would make sense, I guess. callcc id calls id with the current continuation, so its value is the value of the current continuation. (callCC id) x = -- well, I think it works out to the thing you said.
11:58:23 <int-e> shachaf: no, it captures the context. A[`cF] -> `F(A[]), where (A[]) behaves as `(A[])G -> A[G]
11:58:50 <int-e> the ``ci`ci example doesn't do it justice :P
11:59:27 <int-e> sorry, you said CPS
11:59:59 <int-e> then yeah, it's like that.
12:00:13 <int-e> k being the context
12:01:08 <int-e> what's really messy is that Unlambda has side effects
12:01:36 <int-e> oh and the `d "delay" thing which is like TeX's \expandafter
12:03:09 <shachaf> I switched to non-CPS in the last line.
12:04:05 <int-e> uh but that's operating on the level of continuiations
12:04:21 <shachaf> Undelimited continuations are pretty wacky, huh.
12:05:11 <b_jonas> so you're trying to implemenr a transformation from unlmabda to CPS unlambda without c?
12:05:30 <int-e> `ci is definitely not the same as ``sii
12:05:30 <HackEso> ci? No such file or directory
12:05:31 <shachaf> This thing only works like because of the implicit delimiter around the whole program.
12:05:53 <int-e> b_jonas: just trying to make sense of things, I think
12:06:31 <int-e> shachaf: yeah, it's a thing of sheer beauty, like all things Unlambda
12:06:33 <b_jonas> unlambda makes that quite hard
12:07:13 <shachaf> `ci isn't the same as ``sii, because it acts on the continuation, not on values.
12:07:29 <shachaf> It calls its continuation with itself.
12:07:38 <shachaf> I should make it clear when I'm talking about CPS vs. non-CPS.
12:07:41 <b_jonas> the underlying SKI calculus is nice and simple, but David manages to add just the right extensions to make it complex but still hard to program
12:08:47 <int-e> the sane way to program Unlambda is to do your own CPS to control side effects and stay away from c and d :P
12:09:14 <int-e> thougharguably it's also the boring way
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12:14:57 <fizzie> I just remember ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) being the conventional Scheme call/cc puzzle.
12:16:22 <Taneb> d does something with evaluation order
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12:19:23 <int-e> shachaf: you can maybe implement lazy evaluation if you wrap all values in `d.
12:19:23 <int-e> fizzie: yeah I suppose ``cc`cc is the same
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12:19:40 <int-e> and it's ugly because the context will grow
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12:22:01 <int-e> https://paste.debian.net/1182690/ eww
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12:23:02 <shachaf> If callcc f k = f k k, then callcc callcc k = k k k?
12:26:03 <int-e> > iterate (\x -> 3*x-3) 2
12:26:05 <lambdabot> [2,3,6,15,42,123,366,1095,3282,9843,29526,88575,265722,797163,2391486,717445...
12:26:21 <int-e> oh there's a 42 in there, nice
12:27:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 3 6 15 42 123 366 1095 3282 9843 29526 88575 265722 797163 2391486 7174455 21523362 64570083 193710246 581130735 1743392202 5230176603 15690529806 47071589415
12:28:01 <int-e> > text $ replicate 41 '`' ++ concat (replicate 42 "`cc")
12:28:03 <lambdabot> ``````````````````````````````````````````cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`cc`c...
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12:31:58 <int-e> > [(3^i+3)`div`2|i<-[0..]]
12:32:01 <lambdabot> [2,3,6,15,42,123,366,1095,3282,9843,29526,88575,265722,797163,2391486,717445...
12:34:02 <int-e> b_jonas: if you look at terms 1,5 and 9 in https://paste.debian.net/1182690/ and count the `cc-s, that'll give 2, 3, 6... so that's where this sequence came up
12:34:47 <shachaf> @let getcc = callCC (\k -> return (fix k))
12:35:52 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A115098 a(0)=2, a(n)=3*a(n-1)-3.
12:35:53 <lambdabot> [2,3,6,15,42,123,366,1095,3282,9843,29526,88575,265722,797163,2391486,717445...
12:35:53 <shachaf> If (call/cc call/cc) isn't bad enough, you can always (call/cc Y)
12:49:59 <int-e> Taneb: I see no mention of call/cc :P
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15:24:45 <chibi_> Trying to understand Full Stack, I'm not sure I grok the quine and truth machine examples
15:27:02 <chibi_> ...does full stack work right to left or am I missing something?
15:27:32 <chibi_> I'm definitely missing something.
15:30:37 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80296&oldid=78091 * Hakerh400 * (-1) /* Composition */ Fix mistake
15:48:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80297&oldid=80264 * Bo Tie * (+10)
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16:58:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80298&oldid=80291 * Digital Hunter * (+160) /* Writing style and formality */
16:58:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80299&oldid=80298 * Digital Hunter * (+254) /* your base conversion is flawed */
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18:01:03 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80300&oldid=78099 * Quintopia * (-1) sp
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20:38:17 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80301&oldid=75280 * Quintopia * (-447) removing some events for lack of widespread notability within the esolang community
20:41:02 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80302&oldid=80301 * Quintopia * (+132) /* 2000 */
20:43:08 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80303&oldid=80302 * Quintopia * (+133) /* 2007 */
20:46:33 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80304&oldid=80303 * Quintopia * (+171) /* 2002 */
20:50:17 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80305&oldid=80304 * Quintopia * (+66) /* 2007 */
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21:51:10 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80306&oldid=80268 * The-Ennemy * (+140) /* Basic concepts */
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22:42:08 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80307&oldid=80306 * The-Ennemy * (+3422) /* Conditionals */
22:49:21 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80308&oldid=80307 * The-Ennemy * (+375) /* Conditionals */
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22:56:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:0587]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80309 * Chibiningen * (+82) /* Implementation? */ new section
22:57:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:0587]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80310&oldid=80309 * Chibiningen * (+98) Forgot to add sig.
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23:09:52 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80311&oldid=80308 * The-Ennemy * (+1141) /* Conditionals */
23:12:20 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80312&oldid=80311 * The-Ennemy * (+46) /* Conditionals */
23:12:29 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80313&oldid=80312 * The-Ennemy * (+2) /* Conditionals */
23:13:00 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80314&oldid=80313 * The-Ennemy * (-3)
23:14:25 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80315&oldid=80295 * Digital Hunter * (+1112) /* Numbers */ my base conversion was bugged! Not surprisingly a PTS mistake, as expected 0's wouldn't print and expected 1's could be 0's.
23:22:24 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80316&oldid=80314 * The-Ennemy * (+53) /* Conditionals */
23:23:21 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80317&oldid=80316 * The-Ennemy * (+74) /* Conditionals */
23:46:24 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80318&oldid=80317 * The-Ennemy * (+10) /* Conditionals */
23:57:58 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80319&oldid=80315 * Digital Hunter * (+215) /* 99 bottles of beer */ updated to my realisation of the OTHER base conversion macro bug
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00:52:26 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80320&oldid=80319 * Digital Hunter * (-226) /* Deadfish interpreter */ output was broken. Sigh.
00:56:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80321&oldid=80299 * Digital Hunter * (+359)
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07:16:43 <b_jonas> fungot, does the Great Seal of the United States, established by Queen Victoria, symbolize the secret rule of the freemason Illuminati?
07:16:43 <fungot> b_jonas: consider it forgotten. it's some strange suburb with a statue and a church in it.
07:35:36 <b_jonas> fungot, while an angel is incarnated for an earthly mission, they sate themselves with the same kind of mortal food as humans, right? if they can't find enough food and starve, do they die or are they merely dismissed to their original realm? or does that never happen because they can just use their power to create food out of nothing?
07:35:37 <fungot> b_jonas: 11903: what are you using for your coding?!! a pair of parentheses, all alike
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07:55:14 <b_jonas> fungot, if one and a half hens lay one trench per one and a half weeks, then how many eggs can thirty soldiers dig in an hour if they only have ten shovels among them?
07:55:14 <fungot> b_jonas: last time i checked chicken is free as in " fnord". sounds uh fnord."
07:55:33 <b_jonas> not really an answer, but ok
07:56:53 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you save a bunch of kittens?
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08:17:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80322&oldid=80321 * JonoCode9374 * (+240) /* Interpreter */ new section
08:18:17 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80323&oldid=76638 * JonoCode9374 * (+21)
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10:19:48 <esowiki> [[Caballo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80324 * CatIsFluffy * (+7412) It's Spanish for "horse". Same starting letter since same target.
10:20:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80325&oldid=80297 * CatIsFluffy * (+14) /* C */ They say you're supposed to add languages here, but Special:LonelyPages tells a different story
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11:15:30 <esowiki> [[Graphical Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80326&oldid=79429 * Razetime * (+210) Added my own implementation
11:18:20 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have an answer for every question?
11:18:20 <fungot> fizzie: i've heard srfi 19 is time data types and procedures: http://srfi.schemers.org/ srfi-50/ mail-archive/ msg00076.html partitioning
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13:21:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Seshoumara * New user account
13:37:51 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80327&oldid=80320 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* Example programs */
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13:56:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80328&oldid=80162 * Seshoumara * (+492)
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15:02:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lazy evaluation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80329&oldid=68869 * Chibiningen * (+312) /* Relevance to Esolangs? */ new section
15:11:31 <int-e> esowiki: we could just revert to https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Lazy_evaluation&oldid=65961 ...
15:18:00 <esowiki> [[User:Martin Ender]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80330&oldid=54082 * Martin Ender * (+4)
15:20:54 <chibi_> int-e: That works, lol.
15:21:32 <chibi_> Though it'd still be nice to have a list of lazily evaluated Esolangs somewhere.
15:22:35 <int-e> it is there, to be evaluated lazily
15:23:31 <int-e> (It took me a moment to get to the bottom of the "More info will be added upon request" part. In the old version, that is...)
15:24:34 <chibi_> Oh let's not talk about ⊥, nothing good ever comes out of ⊥
15:24:47 <int-e> Oh that part was actually preserved.
15:26:02 <int-e> That pun was a fortunate accident. :) (But I did spot it before hitting RET.)
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15:45:38 <gthread20> > init$fmap(let f=(\x->if x==0 then 0 else 1+(f(x-1))) in chr.f)$take 39$map(\x->117-(mod(div(read(concat(map(\x->show(ord x))"\STX?3T\NUL\SOH0\"c\STX.SV:MN=\SOH3\STX2)+\SOH'`3\STX!\SOHA[\SOH2\STXKZD\STXN\"&$\STX5\"\ETX\SOH"))-1)(117^(38-x)))117))(iterate(+1)0)
15:45:40 <lambdabot> "23151 Segmentation fault (core dumped)"
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16:57:19 <arseniiv_> <chibi_> Though it'd still be nice to have a list of lazily evaluated Esolangs somewhere. => check out Ⅎ, I created a page and a name for it but the idea is stumbled upon quite regularly, that’s because it’s an equational functional language without anything else. Hopefully I marked laziness as a must there
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16:59:00 <arseniiv> though it by no means should have lazy evaluation, as its essence is “functional equational”, but what’s done is done and anyway the page can be edited. I already named three variants of the language, so there may be six and more
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18:59:33 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80331 * Not applicable * (+1310) i'll finish it later
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19:40:49 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80332&oldid=80331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) Use Templates Lowercase, Stub
19:45:40 <arseniiv> how do you call when there are several type systems each more precise than the last, and you may type program elements in any of them? It seems “gradual typing” denotes just one special case (two type systems, of which one is trivial with a single type). And that’s not plain subtyping either, as we have constraints on all occurring subtypes
19:46:50 <arseniiv> ais523: may I ping you, maybe you have a clue about that
19:46:51 <kmc> "refinement types" are a related concept, though I think not precisely what you're describing
19:51:09 <arseniiv> kmc: thanks, this is a good reminder. Being able to express pre-/postconditions in types is a good thing
19:52:09 <kmc> there are a lot of interesting implementation options, too
19:53:25 <kmc> like you may be able to discharge some of the predicates at compile time, and whatever's left can be emitted as asserts (maybe only for debug builds), and subject to QuickCheck-style automatic test case generation
19:54:31 <kmc> you could even have a compiler which "finishes" and yet continues to prove correctness properties and/or find counterexamples in the background
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19:55:18 <kmc> continuous integration not as a set of discrete build/test jobs but as a continuously running and arbitrarily scalable pool of compute resources which is continually trying to break or improve your code
20:01:14 <kmc> it's also kind of related to lazy evaluation
20:02:07 <kmc> like you can think of the whole space of types/values as a single poset
20:02:57 <kmc> you can refine from "any" to "int" to "[0, 10]" to "[1, 3]" to "2"
20:03:03 <kmc> (using ranges as a simple example)
20:03:47 <kmc> and maybe a function doesn't need to return "2" precisely, maybe the caller only wants to know if the result is within [1, 3]
20:04:37 <kmc> in traditional lazy languages like Haskell you have this capability but only for the structural refinement of algebraic types with pattern matching
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20:05:41 <kmc> so for example if you want lazy natural numbers you have to represent them as unary Peano numbers and you can only make lazy queries of the form "is it at least X"
20:09:05 <kmc> and there's a connection to topology too, which i can't explain very well because i don't really understand topology
20:09:27 <kmc> but like think of your refinement types as open / semidecidable sets
20:09:35 <kmc> so that if x \in T then you can prove it in finite time
20:09:57 <kmc> and then you want to work with continuous functions
20:10:27 <kmc> so that answering a query of the form y \in f(x) reduces to answering a disjunction of x \in S_0, S_1, etc.
20:10:44 <kmc> i'm probably not making a lot of sense cause i'm only kind of grasping at these concepts but i think there's something cool there
20:10:58 <arseniiv> I had a discussion with a pal about what I dislike in pure structural subtyping (at least for OOP-like languages with classes or records which are so subtyped), and I suggested adding “semantic tokens” to method names to make accidental subtyping less possible, but that obviously opens its own can of worms;
20:10:58 <arseniiv> and from their questions I noticed that one just need to be able to declare way more properties of methods (and classes awhole), and then any accidental subtyping would mean just that we didn’t state enough. Pre-/postconditions, algebraic identities on functions and all that are steps at that path;
20:10:58 <arseniiv> and then we’ll have type relations we are at ease with, as they are all grow from a type’s properties (those we wished to make its public API)
20:10:58 <arseniiv> <kmc> and whatever's left can be emitted as asserts <…> and subject to QuickCheck-style automatic test case generation => yeah, that’s very nice. Several languages with subtyping approach the first to a very small degree, via “assert x is T” which generates a runtime check and refines the type of x to T in the code that follows the assertion
20:10:58 <arseniiv> yep I remember something about the topology regarding ⊥, Just ⊥ and things like that, and this should be closely related
20:11:55 <arseniiv> (sorry this is in this order, I wrote the first part then read what you’ve been saying)
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20:14:57 <arseniiv> hm and I see refinements allow us to express state changes in objects after calling methods and deny us calling them in the wrong order, and make state machines and all that, which I wanted a bit
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20:17:52 <arseniiv> of course this magic bullet is costly. If I was messing with such a type system, I would have to allow users to write by hand proofs of facts hard to check, or even boldly claim “this one makes out right” without proof
20:19:01 <arseniiv> hm should I try to learn some F*?
20:19:21 <arseniiv> it seemed to have refinement types IIRC
20:20:01 <arseniiv> and many other things, and it tries to reason about them using some solver magic
20:31:14 <kmc> that state-change thing is called "typestate"
20:32:13 <kmc> in a pure functional setting it's easy to do with phantom types
20:33:23 <kmc> in an imperative setting it's less natural
20:33:40 <kmc> because passing a value to a function / calling a method on an object generally doesn't generally change the object's type
20:33:47 <kmc> most imperative langs have no way to express that
20:34:42 <kmc> one solution I can think of is to have the actual object mutate in-place but it also returns a "token" of the correct type, which you have to pass to future method calls
20:34:55 <kmc> the token is just some zero size object which proves that you called the earlier method
20:47:16 <arseniiv> that’s cumbersome even when plumbed away
20:48:41 <arseniiv> for a moment I thought self-types solve at least a small part of this but no, they just allow to restrict subtype definitions
20:49:26 <arseniiv> someone should make an OOP esolang with pre-post-self-types, then
20:53:35 <arseniiv> though that should be somehow constrained, or else having multiple references to the same object will require either something linear to control whether there are multiple references, or something indirectional to allow change an object to something completely different. Of course if all we want is encoding typestates, thanks for the term, then we’ll need to know if two types are typestates of the same object or not, but that doesn’t seem too hard
20:53:35 <arseniiv> if we’re not making the type system too elaborate?..
20:57:40 <b_jonas> arseniiv: re two levels of typing, one finer than the other: rust sort of has that: first you figure out which identifiers exist in which scopes, and which ones are value, types, functions, modules, traits etc, then it figures out the type of every expression and typechecks the program but you can do that ignoring lifetimes, then you checks lifetime. C without C11 _Generic first figures out each
20:57:46 <b_jonas> identifier in each scope and which ones are types, values etc, then you typecheck which you can do ignoring const and volatile qualifiers, then you check for const correctness.
20:58:43 <b_jonas> (this does not work in C++ because C++ can have functions overloaded or templates specialized on a nested const qualifier.)
21:00:41 <b_jonas> but as for *several* type systems, instead of just three, I'm not sure. I have a vague idea for an esolang that is an infinite nesting of identical layers, each one a syntactical preprocessor for the levels below it, but I couldn't yet figure out a nice way to do it.
21:00:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: interesting! (Though I should have added more, I meant something in vein of declaring these levels on a user level, though I didn’t think enough about details and maybe refinements are a sufficient answer)
21:03:36 <b_jonas> "if you want lazy natural numbers you have to represent them as unary Peano numbers" => I still don't understand why people claim this, or in what sense it is true. you can absolutely have lazy natural numbers represented in other ways, eg. "http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs"
21:04:22 <arseniiv> like, I wrote a function and typed it int → int but then someone wasn’t satisfied and typed it odd → even, or even maybe (odd → even) ∪ (even → odd) for example, so their code with more specific types of other functions would be able to use this function without any unnecessary casts or such
21:04:53 <b_jonas> in that, you can lazy evaluate a number to tell if it's odd or even, or to tell its value modulo 2, etc, but you can only tell whether it's less than a constant or not if you happen to have fully evaluated it
21:05:31 <arseniiv> hm wait now I see p-adic topology!!
21:08:05 <arseniiv> and the topology for computing with lazy Peano numerals would be the usual topology of neighborhoods of ∞, a quite familiar one from real analysis
21:08:25 <arseniiv> now is there something unlike those and also practical?
21:09:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: if by "accidental subtyping" you mean because method names happen to be used for multiple different things, you can have method names that are scoped like normal identifiers, as in Rust and Haskell, but unlike in python or C++ (without modules), but even then people sometimes use the same method names for different semantics for convenience of writing code with short method names, especially
21:09:37 <b_jonas> punctuation operator methods.
21:11:02 <b_jonas> you'd need more fancy distinctions between method names to distinguish between different semantics, and lots of methods that are just special case synonyms of other methods
21:11:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah precisely. And sometimes their signatures may match and the typechecker may thing one of them is compatible with the other, even in a good case when we have classes and protocols, the latter abstract and the former not subtyping one another
21:12:19 <b_jonas> so you can most certainly build classes this way in rust or haskell, they would just be annoying to use
21:13:27 <b_jonas> and I actually quite like rust's scoped methods
21:13:34 <arseniiv> and it was a small discovery to me that this is fixable in a natural way, just giving more information about what a subtype’s methods should satisfy
21:13:56 <arseniiv> haskell and rust are okay in that they aren’t precisely structural-types
21:13:58 <b_jonas> though the standard library makes a few questionable choices about naming the functions that aren't methods
21:14:43 <arseniiv> I very much like typeclasses and traits for the freedom they give and for semantics they for an extent bind
21:15:22 <b_jonas> but you can wrap many things with your own differently named abstractions
21:15:43 <b_jonas> when you don't like the names that is
21:16:08 <arseniiv> though I wonder if one can solve the problem of inserting a typeclass “in the middle” of existing ones (like we want to have Eq t => (new) PartialOrd t => Ord t)
21:17:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that one is not easy
21:17:29 <b_jonas> but usually you can do one of the less powerful things that's enough for your use case
21:17:47 <kmc> 13:13 < arseniiv> haskell and rust are okay in that they aren’t precisely structural-types
21:18:00 <kmc> neither one has structural subtyping, period
21:18:08 <kmc> Haskell doesn't have any subtyping, and Rust only has subtyping with respect to lifetimes
21:18:10 <arseniiv> b_jonas: sometimes wrapping is the last resort, for example in this middle-class thing one may redeclare their own hierarchy and it may end up with wrapper dictionaries at runtime
21:18:36 <arseniiv> redeclare the hierarchy the right way and reimplement all the needed instances*
21:19:12 <kmc> I think the type-based name resolution of methods in Rust is a pretty significant usability improvement over Haskell
21:19:37 <kmc> no more qualified imports for 10 libraries that all have a method called 'insert' that works on a different type
21:19:54 <kmc> but it's also not the same as subtyping or ad-hoc overloading
21:20:22 <b_jonas> kmc: you don't need such a strong trait system for that, C++ can also dispatch named functions based on their argument types :-)
21:20:26 <kmc> once you want a function that's generic over all things with an 'insert' method then you need to define a trait and impl it and get precise about what the requirements are
21:20:45 <kmc> otherwise, they are just unrelated methods that happen to have the same name
21:20:58 <kmc> and if there is ambiguity it's an error
21:21:16 <kmc> b_jonas: yes, and I think the fact that Rust *doesn't* do that for arguments *other than* the method receiver is a usability improvement over C++
21:22:14 <kmc> it does mean that methods are special though. x.f(y) is not just an alternative way to write f(x, y), it gives you type directed resolution of the name 'f' with respect to the type of 'x' (but not 'y')
21:22:24 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, that's why I said in rust they're *scoped* method names, in C++ (without conceps) it's just a string compare on the method names
21:22:49 <arseniiv> <kmc> neither one has structural subtyping, period => oops, indeed. For some time I thought there was something like structural subtyping without subtyping but I don’t know how that thing was born and lived for a time. I knew for a long time haskell and rust don’t have subtyping, but somehow I ended up with misnaming
21:23:20 <b_jonas> kmc: so? methods are special in haskell and rust too, they're just special in a different way
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21:25:55 <arseniiv> <kmc> I think the type-based name resolution of methods in Rust is a pretty significant usability improvement over Haskell => yes! I thought that too. And rust still allows methods analogous to static methods in OOP, and it’s a shame languages with OOP-like syntax usually don’t allow to abstract those. Then one can’t even have a monoid interface
21:27:34 <arseniiv> I also came to think ad-hoc overloading is usually unneeded. When a language allows optional arguments, variadic arguments etc. then that’s almost never seems a good idea to have in addition
21:28:02 <b_jonas> kmc: there are some parts of rust syntax that I quite hate, but that in particular isn't one
21:29:31 <b_jonas> what gives me hope is that rust already managed to change syntax in such a way that you can combine old and new syntax even within the same compilation unit through macros, so they could "fix" the syntax (or provide an alternate non-traditional syntax) while giving access to all existing libraries. not that I have high opinion about the existing libraries currently, but still.
21:31:55 <arseniiv> also a tangent on name resolution above: it’s a shame haskell has this “import qualified Data.Map as M; import Data.Map (Map)” thing to not need to write M.Map (or even Map.Map for cases where single-letter aliases aren’t good)
21:32:54 <arseniiv> ah, and that record selectors and accessors are in the module’s scope too
21:33:33 <arseniiv> I saw discussions of what can be done to make things neater and it didn’t seem to take off very high still
21:35:48 <arseniiv> so much experience is dependent on the import system and scoping
21:47:09 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't understand why that's a shame
21:47:31 <b_jonas> haskell also lets you rename names as you import
21:47:59 <b_jonas> so if you have Map in two different modules, you can import one of them as XMap and the other as YMap, or even as single-letter names if you want
22:00:46 <arseniiv> this is good though I’ll consider it a baseline for contemporary languages. But the need to write two imports to not write Map.Map further is still a nuisance
22:01:23 <arseniiv> though to be honest I think I’m completely okay with M.Map
22:12:33 <zzo38> Does Haskell have yet the possibility to use escaped names in imports? (Or, do you need Template Haskell to do that?)
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22:22:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: what do you mean by "escaped names"?
22:32:09 <esowiki> [[Caballo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80333&oldid=80324 * CatIsFluffy * (+67) Add input, since it turns out input is good
22:35:14 <b_jonas> I wish mobile phone providers gave this service where, besides my 12 character phone number, I also get a 15 or 16 character long phone number that they guarantee will never be reused, and then I give that number for two-factor authentication such as to my bank
22:35:52 <b_jonas> I'd prefer it to be even longer, but I think there's some technical limit where you might not be able to call a number longer than 15 or 16 characters through some routes
22:36:42 <b_jonas> (I guess they could give a 15 or 16 character long number, whichever is below the limit, and a 25 digit long number too)
22:37:35 <b_jonas> right now the 12 character phone numbers come from small namespaces and routinely get reused if I don't confirm my phone number in time
22:37:37 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80334&oldid=73518 * CatIsFluffy * (+7) Fix category
22:43:33 <FireFly> that sounds wonky, or at least here my mobile number is "basically permanent" and you can transfer it to a new service provider as well
22:47:26 <FireFly> and I'm not losing it as long as like, I have a phone plan tied to it
22:47:26 <b_jonas> FireFly: I can transfer it to a new service provider
22:47:26 <b_jonas> and I try hard not to lose my main one
22:47:26 <b_jonas> but I've lost at least one spare, plus at least two of my grandmother's spares
22:47:26 <FireFly> I'm just confused since our mobile numbers are 10-digit and we seem to be doing fine
22:47:26 <zzo38> b_jonas: I mean if the name of a module or something in that module contains non-ASCII characters, to be able to use escape codes in the import to refer to them, specifying an alternative name which may be limited to ASCII characters. (It can also be used even if the name does consist entirely of ASCII characters, for example in case there is some name you must avoid for some reason)
22:47:26 <fizzie> There was a story here about a PAYG ("pay as you go") customer getting their phone number recycled because the providers are pretty aggressive in trying to clean up abandoned ones.
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22:47:26 <arseniiv> <FireFly> you can transfer it to a new service provider as well => neat!
22:47:26 <FireFly> with the first two digits being completely fixed for mobile numbers (at least for now, but I guess that might change at some point as landlines are getting increasingly rare, so the old arrangement might change)
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22:48:56 <fizzie> Finland had a big area code renumbering at one point. I think it was still before ubiquitous mobile phones, but they coalesced the 80 or so geographical groupings down into just 13.
22:51:02 <FireFly> I think we had a renumbering at some point too, but that was before my time..
22:51:03 <fizzie> I don't remember what they did with the other digits though. I think maybe my grandparents' landlines just got a sixth digit added (between the area code and the previous number), presumably to disambiguate from others now joining the same area code.
22:51:26 <FireFly> and presumably also when we switched to 112 as emergency number, from the old 90000
22:52:19 <fizzie> In the big Helsinki metropolitan area, I think everyone already had 6-digit numbers, and they just flipped the "90" area code to "09". The old ones all started with 9, the new ones with the more international 0.
22:54:16 <esowiki> [[Caballo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80335&oldid=80333 * CatIsFluffy * (-1) Okay how did I miss that
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23:33:32 <b_jonas> FireFly: I said 12 character (in Hungary), as in the plus sign, two digits for the country code, two digits of area code (currently only 5 out of the 91 possibilities are for mobile phones, but this set can change), then seven remaining digits.
23:34:55 <fizzie> It's a great badge of shame that Finland got a three-digit country code.
23:34:58 <FireFly> here the mobile prefixes are all 07x but not all x'es are allocated for mobile purposes (though quite a lot are now I think)
23:35:00 <b_jonas> but the length can vary by country and possibly even within countries
23:35:02 <fizzie> Denmark, Sweden, Norway all got two-digit ones.
23:35:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think at one point they decided that two digit country codes were a mistake and they'll no longer issue any, so all the two digit codes are legacy ones
23:36:14 <fizzie> They've certainly reshuffled them. Finland got a two-digit one initially.
23:36:18 <FireFly> I don't think so, I think it was just an arbitrary division with which countries had more influence on the system
23:37:10 <fizzie> Then when they did the current numbering that's a little more grouped by continent, Europe (allegedly) got +3x and +4x because France (+33) and UK (+44) did not want to change their two-digit numbers.
23:37:22 <FireFly> I was mixing it up with the 3/4 split
23:38:13 <fizzie> But in that reshuffle Finland got shunted into the three-digit club. Fair enough, someone's got to get there. And Iceland's at +354 -- but they're a lot tinier country too.
23:38:50 <FireFly> I always thought the +4 prefix was allocated to a weird set of countries
23:39:19 <FireFly> especially with the rest of the nordic ones being in +4 but finland getting a +3 prefix
23:40:12 <fizzie> It's kind of convenient that Czechoslovakia had a two-digit code (+42), because when they split up, they could just split that into +420 for the Czech Republic and +421 for Slovakia.
23:40:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: nine of the two-digit codes starting with +4 are used, so ... I think they just ran out of +4
23:40:52 <b_jonas> admittedly there are more three-digit +4 codes open
23:41:31 <b_jonas> (and of course some of Europe is technically under +7 and +9, but that's a technicality)
23:42:43 <fizzie> And it makes sense they ran out of two-digit codes, it's just that why are we the country who got left over, why not [insert a country we think less of] instead.
23:43:44 <fizzie> UK does this odd thing where mobile phone numbers are considered to have a five-digit area code, it's grouped as "07xxx xxxxxx" Sometimes with the last six split into 3+3.
23:46:36 <fizzie> The geographic landline numbers are "02x xxxx xxxx" for the most part, although for some reason there's a persistent myth that "0207" and "0208" would be separate area codes, even though they're not.
23:46:51 <fizzie> There's even a whole Wikipedia page about it, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_telephone_code_misconceptions
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23:58:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: there are 11 character long premium call phone numbers of the pattern +3690?????? or +3691?????? where in some cases even the last but one digit changes the pricing, so you could consider the area code to be seven digits long in some sense
00:11:56 <b_jonas> plus there are short premium numbers (not directly addressable from abroad) of the forms 1???, 1????, 1????? where at least the fifth digit can still change the pricing
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00:16:00 <b_jonas> 1??, 1???, 1????, 1????? has all sorts of miscellaneous numbers, mixing free to call, normal price, premium, and even some exceptional ones that have nonstandard price but forbiding calls to premium numbers does not forbid calls to them. I think at one point even seven-digit ones of the form 1?????? existed, though they don't seem to exist anymore. many years ago, when they were still rearranging the
00:16:06 <b_jonas> phone numbering plan, there were also short calls of forms 0? and 9?? and maybe a few more, but those either don't exist or aren't advertised anymore (I suspect that a few emergency numbers that aren't in the current official plan, like 04, 05, 07, 911 etc might actually work)
00:17:31 <b_jonas> (the official general purpose emergency number is 112, which is the same in most of the EEC, and there are a bunch of country-specific emergency numbers for more restricted purpose, most commonly 104 for ambulance in Hungary)
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00:18:11 <b_jonas> (112 is the most useful one, because it works in every country, and works without a SIM card)
00:20:02 <b_jonas> (also works on many phones even when the keypad is locked)
00:21:26 <b_jonas> (and works with a SIM card but without a PIN code, which you think would be obvious if it works without a SIM card, but this CAT phone is so messed up that you CAN'T TURN ITS POWER OFF WITHOUT REMOVING THE BATTERY if there's a working SIM but you don't know the PIN code.)
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00:56:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Prosfilaes * New user account
00:57:40 <kmc> I'm playing around with OpenSCAD
00:57:58 <kmc> i wonder if there are any parametric CAD esolangs
00:58:21 <kmc> perhaps ones that compile to OpenSCAD
00:58:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80336&oldid=80328 * Prosfilaes * (+223) /* Introductions */
01:08:49 <fizzie> OpenSCAD really reminded me a lot of POV-Ray.
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01:22:07 <kmc> it's been a loooong time since I played with POV-Ray!
01:22:17 <kmc> I remember having fun though!
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01:49:26 * kmc coded a Menger sponge recursively in OpenSCAD
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02:06:10 <fizzie> I imagine I don't have any of my POV-Ray files left. It has indeed been a long time. I think it was back in MS-DOS days for me.
02:11:48 <fizzie> "Dos, Windows 3.1, Windows for Workgroups, SunOS and Amiga are no longer supported." :/
02:37:35 <moony> I'm tryin to figure out the smallest turing complete subset of the Propeller 2's instructionset
02:37:49 <moony> I'm thinking BITNC will do all on it's own if you permit predicates and flag control
02:37:57 <moony> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_vJk-Ad569UMwgXTKTdfJkHYHpc1rZwxB-DcIiAZNdk/edit
02:39:54 <moony> if an instr can set indvidual bits somehow, it can use the IO, which is register mapped, and that's enough to get you the infinite memory needed for TC without access to the on-chip RAM at all
03:27:41 <kmc> here is my menger sponge btw https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/c8d9975fd0733d9453ceec527db14bd0
03:27:52 <kmc> there may be a better way to do it, i've only started playing with this program
03:28:51 <kmc> I wonder if my printer (that I don't have yet) can actually print it... maybe if I rotate 45° and set it on an edge and use lots of support
03:59:54 <kmc> interestingly, OpenSCAD has both lexically scoped and dynamically scoped ("special") variables; the latter have names prefixed with '$' and are used for rendering quality parameters that you don't want to explicitly pass everywhere
04:00:23 <kmc> but I think users can define them for whatever purpose they like
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04:21:50 <fizzie> Wasn't there something that used *foo* for variables with dynamic scope? Maybe some kind of a Scheme.
04:23:33 <fizzie> Oh, I think I'm thinking of Common Lisp, and just a naming convention.
04:29:01 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80337&oldid=80327 * Digital Hunter * (+761) /* Example programs */ added a fibonacci program
04:30:17 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80338&oldid=80337 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* Factorial */ found a shorter recursive factorial program
04:44:51 <kmc> I have seen variables of that form but I forgot what they're used for
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06:23:44 <zzo38> Other idea I have about web browser, in addition to meta-CSS and some other CSS features only for the user, there would be some new CSS features which can be used by authors too, such as indexed colour specifications (which can ensure they won't clash), and colour specifications such as "background" and "foreground".
06:25:40 <zzo38> I would also omit many features or implement them differently, although some things can be done by extensions. Also would be possible implementing most extensions in C, including many of the standard features are extensions (including HTTP and other network protocols, HTML and most other file types, etc).
06:35:20 <b_jonas> kmc: perl also has both lexically scoped and dynamically scoped variables. the former are declared with my, the latter with local. actually local saves the previous value of a variable and unsets it, then restores the old value when exiting the current scope. usually you use local on a global variable, but you can local a lexically scoped variable if you want.
06:37:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think CSS has indexed color specifications (as in, you can define custom named colors in CSS and also reference them) these days. plus there are a bunch of pre-defined named colors that have some semantic meaning rather than a fixed color, like there's a pre-defined name for the default background color and text color. sadly I think there aren't *enough* predefined colors to just use those, eg.
06:37:41 <b_jonas> there isn't one suitable for warning/error messages, or one for emphasis.
08:35:22 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80339&oldid=72108 * Hakerh400 * (+138) Add interpreter
08:36:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80340&oldid=80310 * Hakerh400 * (+2528) Implementation
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12:07:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80341&oldid=80273 * OsmineYT * (+242)
12:07:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80342&oldid=80341 * OsmineYT * (+2)
12:11:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80343&oldid=79951 * OsmineYT * (+197)
12:11:50 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80344&oldid=79564 * OsmineYT * (+29)
12:36:42 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80345&oldid=72220 * Quadril-Is * (+228) /* One instruction minimalizations */
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13:25:01 <esowiki> [[Sed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80346 * Seshoumara * (+7062) Created the sed page.
13:32:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80347&oldid=80325 * Seshoumara * (+10) added link to the sed page
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13:53:50 <esowiki> [[Sed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80348&oldid=80346 * Razetime * (+432) Added code blocks, few links, few grammar corrections
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14:26:56 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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14:42:07 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80349&oldid=80332 * Not applicable * (+759) add symbols
14:42:32 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80350&oldid=80349 * Not applicable * (+2) /* Statements */ fix formatting
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15:29:42 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80351&oldid=80350 * Not applicable * (+2192) add reference from wiki
15:30:27 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80352&oldid=80351 * Not applicable * (-2) /* lcd.scl */ fix header level
15:32:28 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
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15:35:41 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
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15:36:23 <j-bot> arseniiv: |value error: thanks
15:37:05 <fungot> Thanks, b_jonas. Thonas.
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15:49:10 <lambdabot> I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I don't know that command
15:49:14 <fungot> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
15:49:36 <b_jonas> and perhaps I should put a special case in HackEso's thanks command for when you thank him
15:49:42 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:49:54 <lambdabot> I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I don't know that command
15:50:06 <HackEso> thanks(1hackeso) - thank someone. thomeone. \ thanks(8lambdabot) - no description
15:50:23 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:53:13 <HackEso> Thanks, unicode. Thunicode.
15:54:08 <arseniiv> oops I thought ZWJ worked but it may be just that the word is vowel-initial
15:56:18 <HackEso> Thanks, ünicode. Thünicode.
15:59:34 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
15:59:50 <arseniiv> fungot, don’t you have the same issue with thanks?
15:59:50 <fungot> arseniiv: hehe. someone here thought i was reading htdp before sicp? i've started reading it. slowly and repeatedly.)
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16:11:33 <arseniiv> ^echo `echo > "this is the last one I swear"
16:11:33 <fungot> `echo > "this is the last one I swear" `echo > "this is the last one I swear"
16:11:34 <HackEso> > "this is the last one I swear" `echo > "this is the last one I swear"
16:13:05 <arseniiv> fizzie: did you know HackEso reacts to fungot?
16:13:05 <fungot> arseniiv: ' that shold work.' you have a siemens and i have a c sockaddr struct! woohoo!
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16:16:39 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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16:28:14 <fizzie> I did. There's no denylist on HackEso, and the other way around there's no automagic zero-width space escaping on fungot.
16:28:14 <fungot> fizzie: does it really matter that much. go with cs. and that's not just a uri library where uri objects are immutable descriptors with functional operations
16:29:06 <fizzie> But there's both of those going in the other direction: if HackEso says something beginning with a ^ (or >), it will put a zero-width space in front, and also fungot does have an explicit regex of who to ignore.
16:29:06 <fungot> fizzie: i think this is what i think is hella fnord does
16:29:10 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esowiki|bfbot|egelbot)!
16:29:30 <fizzie> Lots of history in that list.
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16:30:09 <Taneb> I should make Pietbot again
16:30:54 <Taneb> iirc I got it to connect to freenode, join #esoteric, and then fail as soon as someone wrote a message beginning with )
16:30:59 <Taneb> I think it even identified with nickserv
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17:16:32 <b_jonas> "Lots of history in that list [fungot's ignore list]." => my default configfile for jevalbot has a lot of history in it too
17:17:05 <fungot> b_jonas: so, i want ' octet.' alex is wrong. i'm fnord that i could return a continuation of k just results in the shoes always coming untied
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17:27:24 <b_jonas> another of those esoteric sorting algorithms :/ https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/understanding-2
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18:24:48 <Taneb> b_jonas: isn't that very similar to Intelligent Design Sort?
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18:34:45 <fizzie> SMBC's been on a sorting trend recently, it sounds like. There was https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/list a while ago.
18:35:25 <fizzie> (Also it took me a long time to realize the "list" in the URL is in fact the title for that comic, and it's not one of those cases where the URL is a general-purpose thing not reflecting the thing you're looking at that you couldn't just copy and share.)
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18:42:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm, it is indeed similar
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20:42:57 <arseniiv_> <fizzie> Lots of history in that list. => was it all added and left in chronological order? neat
20:43:32 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80353&oldid=80338 * Digital Hunter * (+358) /* Numbers */
20:44:21 <arseniiv_> <fungot> a continuation of k just results in the shoes always coming untied => wise
20:44:21 <fungot> arseniiv_: where the german part has bratwurst stands, the implementation is allowed to do ' fnord foo.txt' but it didn't get in the car. :p and onnellinen/ onneton.
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20:48:19 <arseniiv> was “bratwurst” that frequent in the corpus?.. :o
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21:05:57 <fizzie> It doesn't need to have been particularly frequent, I think just 2 or 3 times would've been enough.
21:06:26 <fizzie> I haven't had a bratwurst in a long time. :/
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23:58:08 <zzo38> More idea of Magic: the Gathering card: At the beginning of your upkeep, return the permanent with the earliest timestamp to owner's hand.
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01:11:32 <esowiki> [[AF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80354&oldid=77164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) Rm red at
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03:25:57 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80355&oldid=80300 * Quintopia * (+56) fix broken link
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06:49:29 <kmc> I'm working on an OpenSCAD quine: https://i.imgur.com/q9dUZz8.png
06:49:29 <kmc> the physical shape of it is inspired by https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:271769/files
06:49:29 <kmc> but it's not printable yet, and i still want to tweak the appearance and might even go for a completely different concept
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06:51:29 <kmc> also the code's messy, and i've been editing it directly in "minified" form so it's hard to make it not a mess
06:52:02 <kmc> should probably write a script which minifies it and handles the duplicated section for me
06:54:30 <kmc> still, it satisfies the basic goal of a nontrivial 3D shape which contains as embedded text the full OpenSCAD code to reproduce itself, including the embedded text
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07:52:00 <b_jonas> kmc: ah, one of those graphical quines
07:53:03 <b_jonas> except this one might be printable
07:53:16 <b_jonas> I mean you could modify it to be printable
08:20:45 <kmc> I would like to
08:21:07 <kmc> do you know of any other 3D-object graphical quines?
08:32:58 <nakilon> I guess if you make a 3d printer that prints a 3d printer...
08:34:33 <nakilon> so is any reproducing life form
08:35:01 <nakilon> so when you finish your thing you'll make a lazy kind of life form I guess...
08:35:36 <nakilon> it will be in a symbiosis with you to reproduce
08:36:28 <nakilon> same as any quine though but it will be material...
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08:53:15 <kmc> I got the minifier working, so now i can write a more-or-less normal-looking OpenSCAD file with comments and stuff, that has access to its own minified form as a variable
08:53:54 <kmc> this will make iterating on the mechanical and aesthetic aspects of the design much easier
08:56:50 <kmc> the main limitation is that i can't use string literals in the code, but i don't see that being a huge issue
08:58:40 <kmc> aside from the quine construction itself, I only need one string literal (for the font name), and that's easily handled as a special case
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09:53:21 <b_jonas> "aside from the quine construction itself, I only need one string literal (for the font name)" => or a hard-coded tiny font :)
09:54:56 <b_jonas> perhaps I should golf a (2d) graphical quine with a tiny font embedded in it. there's a small sized font that I started to work on and should finish that could sort of work for this. it's a variable pitch, but I could make a fixed width version of it.
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10:38:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AlgyCuber * New user account
10:59:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80356&oldid=80336 * AlgyCuber * (+209) /* Introductions */
11:07:19 <nakilon> there should be a richtext language
11:09:30 <nakilon> if you write blue text on red text they should run in two threads
11:10:42 <rain1> you sould have to program it in sewing
11:10:52 <rain1> so you literally use separate threads
11:11:55 <nakilon> there are some syntaxes for programmable sewing machines
11:12:16 <rain1> ok so we just need to invert one of those
11:12:17 <nakilon> so those can be used for metaprogramming
11:13:13 <nakilon> there which thread is above another one means the thread priority
11:18:28 <nakilon> also I suppose these schemes https://i.imgur.com/8JJrrsg.png
11:18:51 <nakilon> can be directly translated into some classic esolangs
11:19:04 <nakilon> so you could interpret your sweater
11:24:28 <nakilon> https://www.google.com/search?q=cellular+automata+crocheting&sxsrf=ALeKk03ebtjpxyOvd6w1W-b-XazZZc5KbA:1611833044490&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiW5raAwr7uAhWLuIsKHfG6BLAQ_AUoAXoECBMQAw&biw=2048&bih=1089&dpr=1.25
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11:57:20 <esowiki> [[Negate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80357&oldid=79565 * OsmineYT * (+592)
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12:05:27 <ais523> <arseniiv> ais523: may I ping you, maybe you have a clue about that ← I'm not sure if it has a particular name; it would normally be implemented using subtyping, but I agree with you that it isn't in of itself subtyping
12:05:46 <ais523> there's this concept of "modalities" in type systems which might also be related, but I don't think it's the same
12:06:27 <ais523> in other news, I recently learned that in 2007 (and possibly still today), London Underground was using punched tape in order to control the scheduling of their trains
12:06:40 <ais523> (the tape is plastic, not the traditional paper, probably to make it more durable)
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12:12:36 <esowiki> [[Negate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80358&oldid=80357 * OsmineYT * (+581)
12:13:38 <esowiki> [[Negate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80359&oldid=80358 * OsmineYT * (+42)
12:14:20 <esowiki> [[Negate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80360&oldid=80359 * OsmineYT * (-1)
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12:31:00 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80361&oldid=77545 * OsmineYT * (+30)
12:31:24 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80362&oldid=80361 * OsmineYT * (+7)
12:31:47 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80363&oldid=80362 * OsmineYT * (+2)
12:31:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ParticleCat314 * New user account
12:32:35 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80364&oldid=80363 * OsmineYT * (+16)
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12:45:51 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80365&oldid=80364 * OsmineYT * (+43)
12:47:30 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80366&oldid=80365 * OsmineYT * (-43)
12:48:27 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80367 * OsmineYT * (+23) Created page with "alert("Hello, World!");"
12:53:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80368&oldid=80356 * ParticleCat314 * (+186) /* Introductions */
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13:26:36 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/common.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80369&oldid=80367 * OsmineYT * (+116)
13:30:20 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/common.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80370&oldid=80369 * OsmineYT * (+8)
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14:43:18 <fizzie> "The photic sneeze reflex (also known as Autosomal Dominant Compelling Helio-Ophthalmic Outburst (ACHOO) syndrome --"
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15:37:33 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80371&oldid=80178 * Bo Tie * (+77) Clarification
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17:33:11 <b_jonas> punched card to control the scheduling of the metro? wow
17:35:56 <b_jonas> When I'm wearing a loaded medium-sized backpack (one that has only shoulder straps, no waist strap), it pulls my shirt or jacket back, and in warmer weather when I'm not wearing a heavy jacket, it also keeps pulling the bottom back of my shirt or jacket up. Is this something normal that happens to other people?
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18:18:27 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80372&oldid=80352 * Not applicable * (+213) add descriptions of libraries
18:19:33 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80373&oldid=80372 * Not applicable * (+88) /* Built in */ oops i forgot the builtins
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18:22:10 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80374&oldid=80373 * Not applicable * (+60) /* stupidc.scl */ damnit i forgot stupidc too
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18:39:30 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80375&oldid=80371 * Bo Tie * (+0) I am dumb and I was never correct
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18:50:02 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah, a hardcoded font could work, although it would probably increase the size quite a bit
18:50:25 <kmc> but it would give me more control over the appearance and also let me deal with some mechanical issues like the dot that's hanging in midair inside '0'
18:53:07 <b_jonas> you could solve the hanging thing by having a baseplate with the letters concave or convex
18:59:53 <kmc> i do like the see-through look of the pi tower though
19:00:00 <kmc> it's very eye-catching
19:02:05 <kmc> cathy points out it will attract dust like crazy and I think that's true, but I can blow it out with canned air
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19:30:57 <kmc> hmm an embossed object would also be able to stamp / print its own source code onto paper
19:31:00 <kmc> that's kind of cute
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20:51:19 <kmc> nakilon: I like your richtext language idea
20:51:32 <kmc> perhaps bold code should have the highest priority, followed by normal, followed by italic?
20:55:58 <kmc> in ALGOL keywords have to be written in bold, and you can use the same word as an identifier if it's not bold
20:57:36 <kmc> more specifically this is a property of the ALGOL "publication syntax" used in textbooks and papers
20:58:07 <kmc> and there are various different ways to denote keywords in "machine syntax": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stropping_(syntax)
20:58:41 <zzo38> One way would be to have a character set with a "keyword alphabet" separately from the ordinary non-keyword alphabet.
20:59:30 <kmc> zzo38: yes, although these old machines sometimes didn't even have space for separate upper case and lower case, let alone keyword vs. identifier alphabets
21:00:00 <kmc> (one of the "stropping" options is to use uppercase for keywords and lowercase for identifiers, when both cases are present)
21:01:53 <kmc> what else could you do with rich text syntax?
21:01:59 <kmc> there's headings, subheadings, subsubheadings, etc.
21:02:08 <kmc> which could be useful for control flow
21:03:07 <kmc> whether or not they are meaningful to the language syntax, i think maybe nested headings are under-used in programming
21:03:49 <kmc> perhaps large source files should be broken down into sections and subsections in a way such that your editor can produce a "table of contents"
21:03:57 <kmc> this can be done with literate programming, of course
21:04:07 <kmc> and is sometimes done in an ad hoc way with block comments of varying size
21:04:53 <kmc> the obvious retort is that once a file gets big enough to need these it should be split into multiple files, and most projects already make good use of hierarchical organization at the file level
21:05:00 <kmc> but I'm not sure that's necessarily true
21:05:17 <zzo38> Yes, these are possible, and literate programming already does many of these things.
21:05:59 <zzo38> Whether or not to split into multiple files depends on a few things including the programming language in use (some have better support than others, for certain uses of such files)
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21:36:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Not applicable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80376 * Not applicable * (+3) sup
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22:08:36 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80377&oldid=78334 * Not applicable * (-9612) made it more professional
22:16:29 <kmc> i took an embedded programming course in college which required a rigid format of a page-long comment with various fields of information on every single function, no matter how trivial
22:17:33 <kmc> admittedly this was in assembly, so there is more to keep track of by hand than you would have in a high-level language
22:17:37 <kmc> but it was still pretty excessive
22:19:14 <kmc> my general philosophy about commenting is that most code is boring, and most boring code can be written in a way that's self-explanatory, so comments should be saved for the not-boring code
22:19:48 <zzo38> Yes, and I use more comments in assembly language than in other programming languages generally I think, although not usually really long comments like that (although sometimes they are appropriate, for any programming language)
22:20:15 <kmc> that doesn't mean there's no effort put towards documenting the boring code, but that effort goes into making the code itself clearer rather than explaining its unclear aspects
22:22:09 <fizzie> Our MIPS assembly course templates had these boxes made out of #s, but weren't otherwise that excessive.
22:22:41 <kmc> fizzie: this was 16-bit x86 assembly
22:22:49 <kmc> 80186 to be more specific
22:23:21 <kmc> a chip obscure enough that searching for documentation often brought one back to the course website :/
22:24:02 <kmc> why was an embedded systems course taught in 2006-ish using 80186 instead of PIC or AVR? well... that's a good question
22:24:31 <fizzie> I've been seeing a lot of articles about the RPi Pico thing, it looks p. nifty.
22:24:47 <zzo38> (When I do write long comments, they are often describing data layouts and stuff like that.)
22:24:54 <kmc> even 8051 would be more relevant to industry practice today, although it's older than 80186
22:25:00 <kmc> fizzie: yeah
22:25:13 <kmc> I don't know if you were here when I was talking about the PIO state machines, but they're nifty and esolang-like
22:25:27 <kmc> almost reminds me of TIS-100 or something
22:25:30 <fizzie> I must've missed that, but yeah, that was my thought as well.
22:25:42 <fizzie> With a 32-instruction limit or something.
22:26:39 <kmc> there are two PIO units, each with a single 32-instruction memory and 4 independent state machines
22:27:05 <kmc> so those 4 state machines can be executing the same code or different ones, but the total code for all 4 has to be at most 32 instructions
22:28:02 <kmc> each state machine also has a 4-word TX FIFO and a 4-word RX FIFO, or if you're not using both then you can join them so it's an 8-word FIFO in one direction
22:34:19 <kmc> other interesting ISA features: every instruction can set/clear IO pins as an additional side effect, and every instruction includes a programmable delay of up to 31 cycles (in addition to the 1 cycle for the instruction itself)
22:35:57 <kmc> and the speed of that clock is the main processor speed divided by a 16 integer bit, 8 fractional bit rational number which is configurable per state machine
22:38:08 <kmc> (although the fractional dividers introduce jitter, since it's a first order delta-sigma cycle-skipping thing and not an independent PLL)
22:38:15 <fizzie> I'm reading the datasheet even though chances are very very low I'll ever end up doing any project involving one.
22:38:28 <kmc> so it's very suitable for implementing protocols that require precise timing
22:39:17 <kmc> the TX/RX queues can be filled/emptied by the main processor or by the DMA engine, and the PIO state machines can also raise and wait for interrupts
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22:41:37 <kmc> another strange feature is that they can execute instructions directly out of the TX queue
22:41:41 <kmc> the I2C example makes use of this
22:42:11 <kmc> the TX data stream is a mixture of the actual data to transmit on I2C as well as PIO instructions to handle start/reset/etc. bus conditions (suitably escaped)
22:42:37 <kmc> so that's one way to work around the 32-instruction limit
22:42:59 <kmc> and also a way to have data dependent stuff happen without lots of branching in the PIO program itself
22:58:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Not applicable * uploaded "[[File:GitHub-Mark-120px-plus.png]]": GitHub "Octocat" logo, 120px, transparent background, suitable for light backgrounds
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23:26:35 <kmc> oh, and the IO pin mapping is per state machine too
23:26:50 <kmc> so you can load a single PIO program (for I2C, say) and instantiate it 4 times and have 4 independent I2C peripherals
23:27:58 <kmc> on 4 different pairs of pins
23:28:23 <kmc> and at different clock speeds even
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23:34:26 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80382&oldid=80377 * Not applicable * (+171) added logos
23:36:27 <fizzie> Oof, I feel like those are unlikely to be CC0.
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23:54:45 <kmc> fizzie: the other kind of weird thing about the RP2040 is the main cores. they're fast (133 MHz) and there's two of them, but they're only Cortex-M0+
23:55:25 <kmc> my guess is they looked at the space taken by the FP/DSP features on something like a M3 and determined that you could fit a whole second M0+ core in that space and it would be better for the typical use cases of these Arduino-like boards
23:56:20 <kmc> I'm not sure what kind of RTOS support is planned or what SMP programming models will be encouraged
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00:46:49 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80383&oldid=80355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Befunge-98 and beyond */ Use template
00:49:30 <Hooloovo0> 133mhz isn't *that* fast, though for a little embedded thing, it's not that bad... I've got a calculator with an ARM that fast
00:50:24 <fizzie> I've got a calculator too, it's got a 6 MHz Z80 in it.
00:51:37 <fizzie> There's that xkcd joke about calculators.
00:52:02 <Hooloovo0> it's not wrong. but arming high school students with understandable CPUs has its benefits
00:52:57 <Hooloovo0> did you know that 768 is the number of bytes in a 96x64 screen
00:54:01 <fizzie> Coincidence? I think not!
00:54:18 <fizzie> (My calculator's got a 128x64 screen and 96K of RAM, so I guess it counts as high-end.)
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00:56:19 <Hooloovo0> ah, you've got an 86, those are pretty cool. they have better hardware than the 83+ series, but... apparently the 83+s were easier to manufacture
00:57:23 <fizzie> Our school had this collective order discount pyramid scheme thing going on, I think it had just switched from the 85 to the 86 when it was my turn.
00:57:37 <fizzie> "TI-83 Premium CE Edition Python" huh.
00:59:35 <kmc> yeah, 133 MHz isn't that fast, but it's substantially faster than most M0 boards out there
01:00:04 <kmc> basically the assumption is if you want a fast ARM microcontroller then you also want hardware floating point / DSP
01:00:14 <kmc> but the RPi people think you want a second core instead
01:00:38 <kmc> perhaps based on the large number of Arduinoobs who use software floating point on freaking 8-bit AVR and don't seem to mind
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01:17:21 <esowiki> [[VAST]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80384 * Zero player rodent * (+3204) Created page with "VAST is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: Zero player rodent]]. Although it is a [[turning tarpit]], it still has a large amount of commands compared to..."
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02:58:31 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80385&oldid=80382 * Not applicable * (+1592) STILL WIP
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04:21:26 <moony> kmc: I mean, you can do a lot with extra cores
04:21:35 <moony> case in point: entire Propeller line, especially the Propeller 2
04:30:47 <moony> I've got a propeller 2 on my desk atm- trying to figure out what the heck i'm going to do with it
04:30:57 <moony> i'm working on an LLVM backend but I still need project ideas eventually!
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04:34:59 <kmc> the RP2040 cores are far too limited for a LLVM backend, but fit the same general idea of having lots of cores to do bit banging, rather than dedicated I/O logic
04:35:09 <kmc> the PIO cores I mean
04:36:20 <moony> as in- i'm working on making LLVM produce code for the P2, not /run/ on it
04:36:23 <moony> the P2 lacks the RAM
04:36:50 <moony> yea, the PIO cores are rather limited but pretty powerful
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07:31:00 <b_jonas> I have no idea how fast my Sharp EL-5120 calculator's CPU is. I suspect that it's a slow 8 bit cpu, because all the goto and comparison and assignment statements run very fast, the print statements medium speed, arithmetic like addition and multiplication slow, exponential and logarithm functions very slow.
07:31:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TaterTomorrow * New user account
07:32:25 <b_jonas> Also it probably has exactly 2K of RAM, because there's 1141 bytes of memory for program storage, and if you add up all the memory that it needs to store all the state that it actually stores, you get pretty close to 2K, with a little left for temporary buffers for computation. It seems like they optimized the rom to squeeze out even the last byte of the RAM.
07:32:52 <b_jonas> Well, more like they decided on the semantics first, then optimized the implementation to squeeze out even the last byte of the RAM:
07:33:27 <b_jonas> it has to store three 160-byte long formula input buffers, and the third one seems a bit of an overkill:
07:34:51 <b_jonas> two buffers make sense, because you want one for the main formula, and there are some functions when it takes a second one, namely there's a function where it lists all the variables in your current formula and you can modify any by selecting it and entering a formula that is immediately evaluated and assigned to it, and then after entering any number, you can reevaluate the original formula.
07:35:49 <b_jonas> a similar functionality is provided for the integral and root finder functions, where the first formula is what you numerically integrate or numerically find root for, the second is the integral bounds or starting points in the integral
07:36:27 <b_jonas> but the third buffer is because for some reason it always stores the last formula to find roots for in the root finder mode, even when you exit that mode. that seems pointless, and that memory would be better used for something else.
07:38:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80386&oldid=80368 * TaterTomorrow * (+262) /* Introductions */
07:42:17 <b_jonas> there's also memory set aside for a lot of numbers, which is actually reasonable and well-used. each number is 8 bit long, which is normally used as 12 decimal digits of mantissa, 2 decimal digits of exponent, and signs for both. There's also an alternate representation for rational numbers, with I think 10 digits for the numerator and denominators total: the rationals are only constructed when you use
07:42:23 <b_jonas> the rational divide operator, but they're preserved by most arithmetic, but converted back to floating point when you get an exact integer result or when it would have too many digits.
07:45:19 <b_jonas> there are 26 numbers stored for the general use global named variables, IIRC 4*9 numbers for variables separate among the four major modes, 6 momentums for the statistics in current mode, a 16 number deep stack that's used pretty flexibly in formula evaluation, probably like eight or ten temporaries for arithmetic, and I think a few more temporaries for root finder or integrals
07:45:49 <b_jonas> plus there's a bunch of miscellaneous state you can account for, and you get pretty close to 2K
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09:09:43 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could build an Odysseus-style bed in a modern apartment, with thick permanent concrete/brick/wood supports that are build like a wall just not as tall at its head and foot and the metal bed frame permanently attached to those, sort of like how bathtubs are heavily supported and affixed to the floor permanently in many homes around here.
09:54:36 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80387&oldid=78154 * RocketRace * (+62) Add
09:57:55 <esowiki> [[Fortob]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80388&oldid=53794 * TaterTomorrow * (-2) Minor spelling and grammar fixes.
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11:25:00 <esowiki> [[StackStacks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80389&oldid=75481 * TaterTomorrow * (+0) Minor spelling and grammar fixes, "it's" and "accessable".
12:04:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SjoerdPennings * New user account
12:06:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80390&oldid=80386 * SjoerdPennings * (+139) Introduction
12:22:13 <esowiki> [[BRASCA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80391 * SjoerdPennings * (+5284) BRASCA created
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13:07:49 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80392&oldid=80385 * Not applicable * (+912) still WIP!!!!
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13:44:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80393&oldid=80347 * SjoerdPennings * (+13)
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14:27:22 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80394&oldid=80392 * Not applicable * (+408)
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14:47:03 <esowiki> [[BSS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80395 * CatLooks * (+2308) Created page with "'''BSS''' is an assembly-style esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatLooks|CatLooks]]. It has a lot of common with 6502 Assembly and requires source code to be co..."
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15:19:50 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80396&oldid=80217 * Tetrapyronia * (+25) added BRASCA
15:20:06 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80397&oldid=80184 * Tetrapyronia * (+13)
15:32:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Not applicable * uploaded "[[File:Blue-black-gradient.png]]": gradient from black to indigo
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15:46:30 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80399&oldid=80394 * Not applicable * (+60)
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16:40:32 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80400&oldid=80353 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* Reverse cat */
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17:30:06 <esowiki> [[VAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80401&oldid=80384 * Zero player rodent * (+1292)
17:33:01 <esowiki> [[VAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80402&oldid=80401 * Zero player rodent * (+23)
17:33:34 <esowiki> [[91v]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80403&oldid=80133 * Zero player rodent * (+23)
17:35:26 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80404&oldid=80061 * Zero player rodent * (+60)
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18:53:42 <zzo38> Do you like idea of the Magic: the Gathering that I had mentioned recently?
18:54:45 <zzo38> Also, if you have worked with LLVM, do you know if it can somehow be used with a target that you cannot arbitrarily access the stack?
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19:12:50 <Hooloovo0> zzo38, might depend on what you mean by "arbitrarily access the stack", and if you need performance or it just to work
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19:19:06 <kmc> i wonder if anyone has done demo / golfing competitions with OpenSCAD
19:19:23 <kmc> to design a cool shape, preferably printable, within a small number of characters
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19:23:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: I worked very little with llvm directly, the only thing I've done is ask some llvm folks about some pedantic semantic question after the compiler folks told me what the compiler emits and sent me to the llvm folks.
19:23:59 <b_jonas> but I do know that llvm is the optimizer and code generator under at least three compilers: clang, rustc, and the zig compiler.
19:24:15 <b_jonas> I don't want to touch llvm directly
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19:37:15 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: I mean basically that alloca will work and will allow you to do the same things as it is capable in C. Some instruction sets don't have an accessible stack, making that difficult to do. (In Glulx, there is a stack, but you cannot read/write it directly; you can access local variables of the current frame, and data pushed to the stack for the current frame, but those use different instructions than normal memory, and have othe
19:40:12 <Hooloovo0> I know the ez80 has something like that, where the stack pointer could be a large value, but normally is restricted to a signed 8-bit offset from the current base pointer
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19:41:01 <Hooloovo0> and sometimes there are big variables, so (I think?) the compiler has to resort to shenanigans to get you the right value
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20:12:45 <zzo38> Do you have a description of the stack working in ez80?
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20:28:39 <Hooloovo0> I don't have a good description - it doesn't really use the normal stack pointer, but the index registers, though depends on the specific use
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20:40:05 <esowiki> [[BRASCA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80405&oldid=80391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) /* Links */ Add HW
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21:15:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80406&oldid=80322 * Digital Hunter * (+559) /* Interpreter */
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22:35:33 <esowiki> [[User talk:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80407&oldid=80376 * JonoCode9374 * (+12)
22:35:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80408&oldid=80407 * JonoCode9374 * (+1)
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01:36:20 <zzo38> Is naming things the hardest thing in computer programming? (I think maybe it is.)
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01:48:10 <kmc> there are only two hard problems in programming: naming things, cache invalidation, and off-by-one errors
01:49:35 <kmc> hi b_jonas
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03:55:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * U9000 * New user account
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04:19:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80409&oldid=80390 * Bckw * (+180) /* Introductions */
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09:42:51 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80410&oldid=80345 * Quintopia * (+168) we need some more clarity on what qualifies
09:49:46 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80411&oldid=80410 * Quintopia * (+309) /* However... */
09:54:06 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80412&oldid=80411 * Quintopia * (+181) /* Palaiologos' obvious attempt (2 instructions, fixed) */
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09:58:44 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80413&oldid=80412 * Quintopia * (-642) attempt violated requirements (logos said okay)
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13:19:03 <esowiki> [[Piko]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80414 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+2357) Create the wiki for Piko
13:19:43 <esowiki> [[Piko]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80415&oldid=80414 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (-6) Minor edit
13:20:03 <esowiki> [[Piko]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80416&oldid=80415 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (+3) Another minor edit
13:22:18 <esowiki> [[Piko]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80417&oldid=80416 * Kirbyiseatinghumanmeat * (-21) Minor edit part 3
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14:08:36 <int-e> `relcome NotApplicable
14:08:39 <HackEso> NotApplicable: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:33:56 <esowiki> [[Tarski]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80418 * Bckw * (+3751) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Tarski |paradigms=Functional |author=[[User:Bckw]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl= |majorimpl=See below |influence=Un..."
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18:55:26 <esowiki> [[Tarski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80419&oldid=80418 * Bckw * (+1675)
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19:03:21 <esowiki> [[User:Bckw]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80420 * Bckw * (+155) Created page with "Chase Roycroft, username '''Bckw''', is the creator of the following languages: *[[Tarski]] ==External resources== *Links forthcoming [[Category:People]]"
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19:33:23 <esowiki> [[VAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80421&oldid=80402 * Zero player rodent * (+5)
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19:56:08 <esowiki> [[Tarski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80422&oldid=80419 * Bckw * (-5)
19:56:50 <esowiki> [[Chase Roycroft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80423 * Bckw * (+133) Created page with "Chase Roycroft is the creator of the following languages: *[[Tarski]] ==External resources== *Links forthcoming [[Category:People]]"
19:58:42 <esowiki> [[User:Bckw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80424&oldid=80420 * Bckw * (-126)
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20:08:12 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80425&oldid=79925 * Bckw * (+12)
20:21:06 <esowiki> [[BRASCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80426&oldid=80405 * Quintopia * (+135) Clarification of data from interpreter, cats
20:30:03 <esowiki> [[BRASCA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80427&oldid=80426 * Quintopia * (+24) One last cat
20:31:25 <esowiki> [[VAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80428&oldid=80421 * Zero player rodent * (+168)
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20:46:32 <esowiki> [[Tarski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80429&oldid=80422 * Bckw * (+589)
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20:55:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Zero player rodent * moved [[VAST]] to [[VAST lingo]]: The name was the same as the acronym for "Video Ad Serving Template"
20:55:24 <esowiki> [[Tarski/Numbers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80432 * Bckw * (+26567) Created page with "In Tarski, a natural number 'n' is represented as a program which takes the top element of the stack, and replaces it by n concatenated copies of itself. This is related to th..."
20:58:01 <esowiki> [[VAST lingo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80433&oldid=80430 * Zero player rodent * (+45)
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21:04:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Zero player rodent * moved [[VAST lingo]] to [[VAST]] over redirect: I decided that VAST is a better name, and it doesn't really matter that it shares the name with an acronym.
21:04:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Zero player rodent * Zero player rodent deleted redirect [[VAST]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[VAST lingo]]"
21:04:45 <esowiki> [[VAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80436&oldid=80434 * Zero player rodent * (-44)
21:16:18 <esowiki> [[Tarski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80437&oldid=80429 * Bckw * (+313)
21:27:49 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80438&oldid=71682 * Bckw * (+38)
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21:34:44 <NotApplicable> omfg the amount of time it takes to compile something on a pentium 3 is unbearable
21:36:03 <ais523> this is probably why compilers let you turn down the optimisation level
21:36:48 <NotApplicable> the only problem with that is the program runs slower
21:37:05 <NotApplicable> which is quite signifigant when dealing with computers this slow
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21:38:55 <ais523> oh, you can probably fix swapping by compiling in smaller chunks
21:39:12 <ais523> that probably won't hurt the optimisation too much (it will hurt inlining opportunities but that's about it)
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21:41:48 <esowiki> [[Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80439&oldid=67957 * Bckw * (+33)
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23:21:19 <zzo38> Even if you split the program into many files, then you will need to recompile if the .h files are changed
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00:40:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80440&oldid=80393 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* T */ Add [[Tarski]]
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01:09:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yep, my usual practice is gcc -O1 while developing a program, then -O2 for the real run.
01:09:53 <b_jonas> but different compilers understand these options differently
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02:47:37 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80441&oldid=70245 * Quadril-Is * (+66)
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04:00:56 <zzo38> I generally use -O0 while developing the program and -O2 when it is completed
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05:15:53 <bitx> What's the point of having languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Qwote on the wiki?
05:16:30 <bitx> Or any of the dozens of trivial Brainfuck variants.
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06:39:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ReplayShells * New user account
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06:49:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80442&oldid=80409 * ReplayShells * (+207)
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07:27:18 <esowiki> [[DeltaHello]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80443 * ReplayShells * (+404) Created page with "'''DeltaHello''' is a joke language. DeltaHello instructions: *'''H''': Print [[Hello, world!|"hello, world"]] *'''Q''': [[Quine|Quine]] *'''9''': Print 99 bottles of beer|..."
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07:31:49 <esowiki> [[DeltaHello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80444&oldid=80443 * ReplayShells * (+1)
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07:45:19 <esowiki> [[TF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80445 * ReplayShells * (+208) Created page with "'''TF''' is joke language. TF instructions: *'''T''': Print "True" *'''F''': Print "False" *(Null): Change mode *(Other): Depends on the mode [[Category:Joke languages]] Ca..."
07:50:30 <esowiki> [[TF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80446&oldid=80445 * ReplayShells * (+56)
07:52:36 <esowiki> [[User:GeorgeEpicGen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80447&oldid=40579 * GeorgeEpicGen * (-264) Removed useless information, personally I'd like the page deleted
08:13:48 <esowiki> [[TF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80448&oldid=80446 * ReplayShells * (-56)
08:18:03 <esowiki> [[TF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80449&oldid=80448 * ReplayShells * (+100)
08:18:18 <esowiki> [[TF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80450&oldid=80449 * ReplayShells * (-2)
08:19:33 <esowiki> [[DeltaHello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80451&oldid=80444 * ReplayShells * (+115)
08:29:04 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80452&oldid=80037 * ReplayShells * (+26)
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08:38:00 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80453 * ReplayShells * (+183) Created page with "I use C#. ==Languages== *[[TF]], True or False! *[[DeltaHello]], My evolution of HQ9+ ==Source code== *[https://github.com/ReplayShells/Esolangs My GitHub page] Category:..."
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10:31:12 <b_jonas> fungot, do you prefer Ferrero Rocher or Cheetos?
10:31:12 <fungot> b_jonas: cell phones are practically free, and bodyguards can be hired very cheaply. and the tasks were unveiled. you lost nearly all of them
10:36:01 <nakilon> 08:16:30 <bitx> Or any of the dozens of trivial Brainfuck variants.
10:36:24 <nakilon> at least these have some special wiki category for that
10:36:49 <nakilon> but I agree that that one about quotes is weird
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11:33:57 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80454&oldid=80453 * ReplayShells * (+2)
11:36:27 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80455&oldid=80220 * ThatCookie * (+51)
11:36:45 <int-e> fungot: maybe they should've hired more expensive bodyguards
11:36:46 <fungot> int-e: it gives a good basis for these sorts of details and think at a _high_level_: what does one mean by " without duplicating the step"?
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11:41:18 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80456&oldid=80454 * ReplayShells * (+37)
11:53:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ThatCookie * uploaded "[[File:NyaScript.png]]"
11:56:13 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80458&oldid=80455 * ThatCookie * (+466) Added NyaScript Extended
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12:01:40 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80459&oldid=80458 * ThatCookie * (+221) added stuff
12:05:29 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80460&oldid=80054 * ThatCookie * (+577) Added NyaScript
12:44:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FreakCdev * New user account
12:45:38 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80461&oldid=79580 * Nakilon * (-2) idk how I didn't notice this copypaste artifact before
12:46:19 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80462&oldid=80460 * Nakilon * (+41) added RASEL
12:50:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80463&oldid=80442 * FreakCdev * (+152)
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13:04:38 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80464&oldid=80456 * ReplayShells * (+296)
13:06:08 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80465&oldid=80464 * ReplayShells * (+8)
13:06:54 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80466&oldid=80465 * ReplayShells * (+8)
13:13:49 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80467&oldid=80466 * ReplayShells * (+21)
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13:30:18 <esowiki> [[FreakC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80468 * FreakCdev * (+957) Created page with "'''FreakC''' is a clone of Batch and also compiles into Batch codes as well. There is nothing to say about the language really as it is the same as Batch (you can also writes..."
13:32:36 <esowiki> [[FreakC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80469&oldid=80468 * FreakCdev * (+92)
13:33:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80470&oldid=80440 * FreakCdev * (+13) Add FreakC
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15:20:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80471&oldid=80177 * Orisphera * (+236) /* Arrows are unnecessary */
15:23:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80472&oldid=80471 * Orisphera * (+44) /* Arrows are unnecessary */
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15:38:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80473&oldid=80472 * Orisphera * (+714) /* Similarity to ants/turmites */ new section
15:38:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80474&oldid=80473 * Orisphera * (+89) /* Similarity to ants/turmites */
15:47:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80475&oldid=80474 * Orisphera * (+424) /* An alternative instruction set */ new section
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17:25:57 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80476&oldid=80400 * Digital Hunter * (+23) category
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20:11:46 <lm978> Does anyone know any language which supports calling arbitrary C++ libraries without intermediate C glue code?
20:13:02 <lm978> Well, one that isn't C++ already
20:14:10 <fizzie> Does it count if the glue code is generated? SWIG comes to mind.
20:15:00 <lm978> fizzie: I noticed a few that automatically generate glue code for you, but I've been wondering if any can skip that step.
20:15:07 <shachaf> If you want to just support things like templates you pretty much have to have a C++ compiler.
20:15:10 <int-e> isn't the glue code C++ :P
20:15:31 <shachaf> I think D can call template things but they have to be generated by the C++ compiler.
20:15:38 <lm978> I suppose it is C++, just with C linkage.
20:15:45 <int-e> (extern "C" is a C++ feature)
20:15:49 <shachaf> I mean, the symbols for the particular specialization.
20:16:05 <lm978> shachaf: Looking at D's documentation, it can't directly interface with C++ without an interface.
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20:16:48 <lm978> I'll say a library doesn't have to support templates for the purpose of my question.
20:17:13 <shachaf> C++ is bad and other people shouldn't have to put up with its nonsense.
20:17:36 <shachaf> If you want to export a library for other people to use, you should give it something like a C API anyway. It'll just be a better API.
20:17:52 <shachaf> So what I'm saying is that this use case is p. esoteric.
20:18:04 <int-e> I suspect generated wrappers are your best hope...
20:18:35 <lm978> shachaf: That is true. The particular instance in my case is the GNU Octave library, for which the only non-deprecated APIs are in C++.
20:18:44 <int-e> Is the C++ symbol mangling standardized i ABIs these days?
20:19:44 <lm978> int-e: Supposedly, the standard encourages different ABIs so people don't attempt to use one.
20:20:38 <int-e> but if it's not standardized then C exports are the only sane choice
20:20:53 <lm978> I do recall, though, that one can compile a C++ file alongside a C file referencing the mangled name, and neither the compiler nor the linker will complain.
20:21:12 <shachaf> There is also an API called mex.
20:22:24 <int-e> (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mex_(mathematics) )
20:23:14 <shachaf> You can write a literate Mex program and typeset it with TeX-Mex.
20:23:38 <myname> tex-mex sounds delicious
20:24:09 <int-e> fungot: what do you make from pun tequila?
20:24:09 <fungot> int-e: or use the string quote marks, which are built up using smaller proper lists
20:25:31 <HackEso> The password of the month is eerily topical
20:25:44 <HackEso> 12360:2021-01-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is eerily topical \ 12355:2020-12-01 <b_jonäs> learn The password of the month is wake these token brings \ 12348:2020-11-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0 \ 12344:2020-10-01 <wib_jonäs> learn The password of the month is Algol Waterloo Athens aftermath quadrant hydraulic tissue exodus stormy decadence egghead resistor flatfoot escapade newborn rec
20:27:00 <shachaf> int-e: what do you think of https://slbkbs.org/tmp/precedence-parsing.txt hth
20:27:45 <int-e> (seems out of place)
20:28:50 <shachaf> I remember you were saying you preferred the other way of doing this sort of thing.
20:31:37 <int-e> I also said it was a habit.
20:32:37 <shachaf> That's true. So you'd need repeated exposure to break it.
20:32:42 <shachaf> I mean, assuming there was a point, which there isn't.
20:33:23 <int-e> I'm not sure I like the explicit precedence argument
20:34:19 <int-e> then again I got used to it in Haskell's showsPrec stuff... so I guess it's again a matter of habit
20:34:41 <int-e> mostly I try not to write parsers if it can be helped
20:34:41 <shachaf> One way you can think of it is as a family of similar functions, in the classic recursive descent BNF-style thing.
20:35:10 <shachaf> You have parse_expr1() that parses addition, parse_expr2() that parses multiplication, etc., and they all look the same.
20:35:30 <shachaf> And this is kind of like turning that into parse_expr(1), parse_expr(2) and so on which are all the same function.
20:36:05 <shachaf> Except it's more efficient because you don't need to go up and down the whole chain every time.
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20:37:30 <shachaf> If you got used to it with showsPrec, readsPrec is the next step.
20:37:36 <shachaf> It works exactly like this, I think.
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20:38:03 <shachaf> Well, I forgot until just now.
20:39:05 <shachaf> I actually think "print with minimal parentheses" is maybe trickier than "parse with precedence".
20:39:11 <int-e> I just write more Show instances (abusing it for pretty-printing) than Read instances...
20:39:59 <shachaf> It's ambiguous, is the problem, I think.
20:40:54 <shachaf> Maybe that only happens if you have suffix operators?
20:41:40 <int-e> dealing with associativity is already tricky if you only pass around precedences
20:42:16 <nakilon> 23:23:38 <myname> tex-mex sounds delicious
20:42:17 <shachaf> I thought I had it figured out once, but it turned out it was subtly wrong.
20:42:43 <nakilon> sounds like Russian "тер.мех." that stands for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_mechanics
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