←2020-11 2020-12 2021-01→ ↑2020 ↑all
2020-12-01
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01:08:35 <int-e> `? device
01:08:37 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
01:11:18 <int-e> `? password
01:11:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0
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02:21:09 <b_jonas> yeah. someone grab that password in the morning or I'll change it tomorrow evening.
02:23:36 <fizzie> With the randomly sprinkled capital letters, some parts of the US constitution sound like extracts from a fantasy RPG.
02:23:40 <fizzie> "The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
02:23:46 <fizzie> I'm thinking specifically of that "Corruption of Blood" part.
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02:46:58 <kmc> is it random or is it all nouns, German style?
02:49:04 <kmc> it looks like most nouns, but I notice that "defence" is not capitalized in the preamble
02:58:21 <fizzie> Sure, it's not random. But I don't think it's quite all nouns either. Not all the instances of "time" are capitalized, but some are. "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected -- shall have been encreased during such time --".
02:59:23 <fizzie> So I guess it's about how the word is used in the sentence. It does look pretty German.
03:04:37 <kmc> interesting
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03:27:06 <int-e> okay, Hiding Spot is cute.
03:30:26 <int-e> shachaf: I got Pipe Push as well. That one feels a bit more Sokoban-like, but has a (literal) twist.
03:31:32 <int-e> and it has the advantage of working under Linux
03:32:16 <int-e> Anyway, made it up to 609 in the former... that one will require some more thought.
03:32:22 <shachaf> The other one worked fine for me.
03:32:33 <shachaf> I guess I used Steam and it used some sort of Wine thing to run it.
03:32:55 <shachaf> Is 609 the level with the long corridor and the three or four stools?
03:37:13 <int-e> sounds accurate
03:37:36 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/609.png
03:37:47 <int-e> (I made a screenshot before booting to Linux ;)
03:37:55 <int-e> Oh and I didn't try it in steam
03:40:13 <shachaf> Yes, that's the one I stopped on too.
03:40:14 <int-e> I think of them as (small) tables. They're cute.
03:40:40 <shachaf> Yes, they're more table-like.
03:43:28 <int-e> I tried the itch download in plain wine and it didn't work there, but who cares. All it means is I won't play it on a whim.
03:47:43 <int-e> Oh level 101 was hard too :P
03:56:28 <shachaf> 101?
03:56:54 <int-e> the very first one? which drops you into the game with no objective?
03:58:18 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I got a clue from the name.
03:58:24 <shachaf> Or from my own inclinations in life.
03:59:54 <int-e> it took me a while to realize that the game name may be relevant
04:00:48 <int-e> not ages, 5 minutes maybe? but long enough to feel a little bit stuck
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05:31:35 <int-e> oh I guess AoC is live
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06:19:20 <shachaf> Oh no.
06:19:29 <shachaf> Does every vector space finally have a basis?
06:20:05 <int-e> yes
06:20:23 <int-e> `? aoc
06:20:25 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
06:21:09 <int-e> `slwd aoc//s/2019/2020/
06:21:11 <HackEso> aoc//Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
06:21:33 <int-e> Art of Confusion
06:31:42 <shachaf> `? member
06:31:44 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
06:33:20 <delta23> sounds suspect
06:41:48 <int-e> `grwp suspect|suspicious
06:41:50 <HackEso> No output.
06:41:58 <int-e> `grwp suspect\|suspicious
06:41:59 <HackEso> esoterra:Esoterra is the planet of Esoterrans, also known as Esolangers. The proof of its existence is non-constructive, although some suspect that it is in fact Earth. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ snow:Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofo
06:42:30 <int-e> `2 grwp suspect\|suspicious
06:42:32 <HackEso> 2/0:
06:42:35 <int-e> no?
06:42:58 <int-e> `2 grwp suspect\\\|suspicious
06:42:59 <HackEso> 2/2:rofoam on it. \ the usual suspect:There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up. \ usual suspect:There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up.
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06:55:13 <delta23> `grwp war|warfare
06:55:14 <HackEso> No output.
06:55:20 <delta23> `grwp crazy
06:55:21 <HackEso> No output.
06:55:42 <delta23> `grwp a
06:55:43 <HackEso> ​𝕈:𝕈 would be the set of rational numbers, if the Unicode Consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ. \ :The final frontier. \ !:! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems. \ *:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ @:@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour. \ \:\ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash. \ ^:^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the
07:00:21 <int-e> huh. 'Because of an outage during the day 1 puzzle unlock, day 1 is worth no points.'
07:03:14 <b_jonas> “With the randomly sprinkled capital letters, some parts of the US constitution sound like extracts from a fantasy RPG. […] Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted. […] I used Steam and it used some sort of Wine thing to run it.”
07:05:02 * delta23 screams vapourwaves on an irc client running on an OS made out of only the finest vapour
07:05:36 <int-e> delta23: you sound esoteric
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09:39:56 <zzo38> I think that joke languages that don't work should not belong in the "Languages" category, although someone added both categories for "NOT A PROGRAM" and I think that is wrong. Maybe it might be appropriate for some things, but for most it is not appropriate to put both. (Even a joke language that does work might not belong in both, but then it can be more debated, I suppose.)
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10:17:21 <rain1> https://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/November2020.html the didn't give me a * but I did answer the * part too
10:41:19 <int-e> rain1: try sending them another mail... worked for me
10:42:39 * int-e is still trying to figure out how to pack two solutions into a single mail and have the new Ponder manager notice
10:44:03 <int-e> Probably the solution is to put both solutions right at the top of the mail and only then write an explanation (which I suspect isn't read anyway).
10:44:35 <int-e> (but I'm usually happy to write an explanation up for my own benefit)
10:54:26 <rain1> ah
10:54:32 <rain1> i thought maybe I got it wrong
10:54:58 <int-e> I /think/ they reply if they find a mistake.
11:00:01 <int-e> I'm still wondering what their intended solutions for the bonus part looked like... it can easily be done in less than 20 steps.
11:02:14 <Arcorann> I wondered that as well
11:05:23 <int-e> Btw I found the December problem quite difficult to parse.
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13:25:55 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79061&oldid=58681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Complexity class */ ln
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18:11:13 <b_jonas> nobody set the new password?
18:11:17 <b_jonas> I'll have to set one then
18:12:02 <b_jonas> `learn The password of the month is wake these token brings
18:12:07 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is wake these token brings
18:12:12 <b_jonas> `? password
18:12:13 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
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19:08:01 <olsner> now I'm curious what last month's password was
19:16:08 <b_jonas> `before
19:16:13 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/wisdom/password//The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0
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19:38:11 <arseniiv> `password
19:38:12 <HackEso> mmtzyqijzhukink
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21:19:58 <esowiki> [[Template:ItalicTitle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79062&oldid=78247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) n
21:40:46 <fizzie> int-e: It's AoC time of the year again.
21:44:35 <zzo38> I have a idea of Magic: the Gathering which is: {?} World Enchantment ;; When ~ enters the battlefield or dies, target player draws a card. ;; Creatures attacking players with no cards in their hand have -1/-1.
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2020-12-02
00:32:42 <zzo38> Do you like this? Do you suggest a name and mana cost?
00:32:48 <zzo38> (Or other changes?)
00:38:19 <esowiki> [[BAM128]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79063&oldid=79030 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Print Numbers from 0 to 127 */ knit
00:39:15 <shachaf> Isn't World Enchantment deprecated?
00:41:41 <int-e> fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-01.html#lY
00:42:02 <zzo38> It is still fully supported, and I will still use it in custom cards.
00:42:37 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, I missed that.
00:43:40 <fizzie> I'm half-expecting day 2 to have some sort of vaguely esolang-y recurring theme again.
00:43:42 <int-e> `? password
00:43:43 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
00:47:03 * int-e is wondering how the payment for the first day problem is supposed to work
00:47:38 <int-e> "look at this poor guy doing his own expenses, he must be completely out of luck, here, have a gold starfish"
00:48:07 <int-e> and then there's the matter of researching your destination when traveling...
00:48:19 <int-e> I feel that the story is kind of weak this year :P
00:48:33 <fizzie> Well, maybe it'll have a twist.
00:48:35 <int-e> s/when/before/
00:49:19 <int-e> Or maybe this is the travel preparation? Hmm. Maybe.
00:50:29 <fizzie> Hmm. I was pretty sure I had been using my GitHub account to log in to this thing, but now that I did, I can only see the two stars from 2020, and 4 from 2017 somehow. (Not sure if I just abandoned it in 2017.)
00:50:39 <fizzie> Maybe I used the Google account instead, after all.
00:51:54 <fizzie> Yeah, that one has 50 stars from 2019. Hmm. Can't decide which one to stick with.
00:53:04 <int-e> alternate!
00:53:22 <fizzie> Maybe I'll stick with the Google account, it's got some actual points from day 10 of 2019 when I was accidentally awake at 5am and did it real-time.
00:53:36 <int-e> I totally overengineered the first day solutions.
00:54:28 <int-e> (I wrote the first program before downloading the input and seeing that it was only 200 lines.)
00:54:33 <fizzie> I didn't, but I spent time refactoring my 2019 Go repository to better fit multiple years in the same repo.
00:55:07 <int-e> 2019 didn't have a repo.
00:55:31 <int-e> 2020 does, if I keep up committing
00:55:41 <fizzie> I had three for 2019. ;)
00:55:58 <int-e> two commits so far: 2 stars/add .gitignore
00:56:05 <int-e> three, hmm
00:56:25 <int-e> I copied a lot of code around in 2019, that is a form of versioning, right?
00:57:50 <fizzie> I had one with super-scrappy Python solutions but with ridiculously extensive (Markdown) notes about the problems and solutions; the Go one, which did a little bit of software-engineering-y stuff like unit tests for everything (well, almost); and the third one for that Processing.js thing, but I only did two days there.
00:57:57 <int-e> https://paste.debian.net/1175185/
00:59:04 <int-e> (before day 7, the interpreter was not even a separate module)
01:00:25 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2Gd8 -- kinda equivalent
01:00:49 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79064&oldid=63412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External links */ unimplemented (please correct if wrong)
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01:01:25 <int-e> And the day 25 version is different because I added some ad-hoc tracing... I don't even remember why :)
01:01:40 <fizzie> (log1 = log --oneline --decorate=full --graph)
01:02:34 <fizzie> My day 25 change seems to have been to add an `ascii` IO mode so I could play the adventure game "manually".
01:02:43 <int-e> https://paste.debian.net/1175186/
01:03:13 <int-e> I could do that without modifying the compiler... thanks to lazy evaluation I think
01:03:48 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2Gd9 -- in the best Python style of "just stick some string in there instead of the expected type of object".
01:03:56 <int-e> And I had abbreviations for n,e,s,w,t=take,d=drop.
01:04:20 <fizzie> The queue.Queue in there was for running those multithreaded intcode things actually multithreaded, I think. :)
01:05:09 <int-e> hah
01:05:56 <int-e> (map (fromIntegral . ord) (unlines ts)) <-- "ASCII mode"
01:07:25 <fizzie> Someone's starred the fungot repo 21 days ago. :)
01:07:25 <fungot> fizzie: he knew they had galloped into ephebe. he should be killed. there's something honest about slaves and whips. well... i'm just going out,' said agnes.
01:07:37 <fizzie> fungot: That's a little harsh, don't you think?
01:07:37 <fungot> fizzie: " inadvisably, sir." vimes relaxed a bit,' it said. " you know you said it would help if you think of me
01:07:38 <int-e> Ah!
01:07:47 <int-e> The tracing was for the weight comparisons.
01:08:54 <int-e> So I could see which numbers were compared, and determine individual weights and target weight
01:09:01 <fizzie> My day 25 solution just brute-forces the door by doing itertools.combinations(items, size) and spamming drop/take as required.
01:09:49 <int-e> Yeah I never did that :)
01:10:52 <int-e> But I don't recall how I found the relevant locations... quite possibly I traced *all* SLT instructions at some point
01:10:53 <fizzie> "Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about ideal-disco?"
01:11:08 <int-e> ?!
01:11:08 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
01:11:16 <fizzie> (I'm considering pushing the 2019 solutions online now that 2020 has rolled around.)
01:11:35 <int-e> I'm not sure what github was thinking when they added those suggestions.
01:12:10 <fizzie> Probably just to show they're not so stodgy and serious.
01:12:52 <int-e> Imagine just taking that suggestion whenever you create a new repo...
01:13:29 <int-e> I guess it's not my kind of humor.
01:13:41 <int-e> memorability is important, brevity is not
01:14:01 <int-e> (you can always check the thing out under a shorter name)
01:14:08 <fizzie> Huh. I've got uncommitted changes in the Python repo.
01:14:36 <fizzie> They seem to be all just going from 'foo {} bar'.format(baz) to f'foo {baz} bar' though.
01:20:56 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/aoc-py/blob/main/readme.md -- no idea why I wrote all of that, there's nothing particularly clever about any of the solutions.
01:22:18 <esowiki> [[Brainstuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79065&oldid=34524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* External resources */ ctatt
01:22:43 <esowiki> [[Brainstuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79066&oldid=79065 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat
01:25:46 <int-e> "These puzzles are getting to be Intcode-related in name only."
01:28:10 <int-e> oh right, I remember comparing maps for day 25
01:28:31 <int-e> (the mazes were random)
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01:31:49 <myname> so nobody did write an intcode interpreter in intcode yet?
01:32:09 <fizzie> I think interest in Intcode kind of petered out post-AoC.
01:32:55 <myname> yeah it's not that interesting
01:32:56 <fizzie> I remember I was writing annotated disassembly of the puzzle Intcode programs, with the intent of maybe adding them to the article (at least as links), but probably gave up.
01:32:57 <int-e> Same here.
01:33:05 <myname> easier subleq
01:33:33 <int-e> fizzie: Oh I actually finished a disassembly of mine (the day 25 one).
01:33:49 <int-e> I'm sure I shared it back then
01:34:13 <fizzie> Probably. I think we also argued a bit about the best conventions for Intcode assembly, but I didn't finish (or even really start) the assembler.
01:34:49 <int-e> I think in the end it's too normal.
01:36:34 <fizzie> Looks like I've actually finished commenting the disassembled versions of days 5, 7 and 13, but did not commit them.
01:36:54 <fizzie> Day 13 was that breakout clone.
01:37:26 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2Gdh
01:37:50 <int-e> Oh I actually automated that one it seems.
01:38:40 <int-e> which is probably the only sane thing to do seeing that the panel has size 1.
01:38:57 <Arcorann> Did you see the creator's compiler?
01:39:10 <int-e> no
01:39:18 <Arcorann> https://github.com/topaz/aoc2019-intcode
01:39:27 <Arcorann> Uploaded a couple of days ago
01:40:16 <int-e> I did figure out the calling convention though, and that it supports function pointers
01:40:55 <Arcorann> I remember reverse-engineering the square-in-the-beam code
01:41:07 <int-e> (see notes in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/dis.txt near the top)
01:42:28 <fizzie> Looks like the only instructions my proposed syntax has matching are add/mul/in/out; I used jnz/jz/setlt/seteq/setb/halt where they have jt/jf/lt/eq/rbo/hlt.
01:42:34 <fizzie> 'rbo' is a curious choice.
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01:42:46 <fizzie> "Reset Base Offset"? I'unno.
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01:43:52 <int-e> I had INCB
01:44:14 <int-e> the register was called "relative base", right
01:44:18 <fizzie> Right, it had some logic like that.
01:44:23 <int-e> so that's "relative base offset"
01:44:39 <int-e> (that's my guess at least)
01:45:08 <int-e> they don't seem to be a fan of adding verbs like "set" to the mnemonic
01:45:36 <fizzie> Aw, the Arecibo telescope collapsed completely now.
01:45:50 <Arcorann> I had add/mul/inp/out/jnz/jez/clt/ceq/srb in the comments of my debugger
01:46:00 <Arcorann> I guess I wanted everything to be 3 characters
01:46:36 <int-e> Arcorann: my choices are in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Intcode, because I wrote the "Proposed Assembly Syntax" section
01:48:04 <fizzie> I was planning to implement the syntax http://ix.io/25xa but didn't.
01:48:27 <fizzie> It used `*x` for mode 0, a naked `x` for mode 1 and the same `@x` for mode 2.
01:48:27 <int-e> hmm, actually that's a surprisingly low level language
01:48:43 <fizzie> Somehow @ makes a lot of sense for the relative addressing mode.
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01:54:04 <int-e> Oh apparently I used STOP for HALT when preparing that disassembly... oh well.
01:54:55 <int-e> fizzie: I left the mode 0 unadorned because it came first, and also because AT&T assembly does something similar...
01:55:21 <int-e> And that's also where the # comes from.
01:55:51 <int-e> Your choice makes about the same amount of sense, to me.
01:57:15 <int-e> So what else is there... having labels on operands is kind of cute.
01:57:45 <fizzie> Oh, right, forgot I did that.
01:59:01 <int-e> I didn't. The author did. He also used * the way you're using it.
01:59:58 <int-e> (but not when using a label as an operand... in that case, the * is implicit)
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04:50:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79067 * Hakerh400 * (+6414) Unlimited recursion and TCO
04:50:59 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79068&oldid=79018 * Hakerh400 * (+101) /* Articles */
04:52:22 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79069&oldid=79067 * Hakerh400 * (-5)
04:54:34 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79070&oldid=79069 * Hakerh400 * (+43)
04:55:11 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79071&oldid=79070 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Example 1 */
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05:48:29 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79072&oldid=79071 * Hakerh400 * (+423) Added minified version
05:53:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79073&oldid=79072 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
06:44:03 <int-e> shinh: I found snow.
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06:57:34 <int-e> hmm
06:57:38 <int-e> shachaf: ^^
06:58:58 <shachaf> @metar lowi
06:58:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 020650Z VRB01KT 8000 SCT010 BKN013 M00/M02 Q1014 NOSIG
07:03:57 <shachaf> Seems difficult to find snow in those conditions, but perhaps not impossible.
07:06:59 <int-e> "Slack is where work happens."
07:07:14 <int-e> shachaf: Ah, not in real life (yet).
07:07:36 <shachaf> Yes, I figured.
07:07:36 <shachaf> @metar koak
07:07:36 <lambdabot> KOAK 020653Z 00000KT 10SM FEW200 09/04 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP209 T00890044
07:07:38 <int-e> Unless I look at mountain peaks nearby... I bet there's snow there.
07:08:18 <int-e> https://vcdn.bergfex.at/webcams/archive.new/downsized/7/1587/2020/12/02/1587_2020-12-02_0745_688d47e0ed941b8b.jpg
07:08:44 <int-e> (And now I'm wondering how long that link will work)
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07:22:15 <zzo38> Which other instruction sets define shift amounts out of range in the same way that Glulx does?
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10:46:16 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79074&oldid=78745 * Aspwil * (+108) /* Instructions */
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11:42:54 <int-e> 173 islands[1~mmm
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12:11:44 <shachaf> Oh no。
12:11:48 <shachaf> I'd better get back to it.
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12:46:04 <fizzie> They promised some snow in London later in the week, but now I think they've taken that back, it's going to be just rain.
12:48:28 <esowiki> [[Markup anguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79075&oldid=44797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) cats
13:16:41 <esowiki> [[Mark C. Chu-Carroll]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79076&oldid=30725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) fix blog link
13:27:18 <esowiki> [[Unlambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79077&oldid=75302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Palindromes */ Waybcak
13:39:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79078&oldid=20018 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Unsigned
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14:10:50 <b_jonas> `? aoc
14:10:51 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
14:32:38 <fizzie> Hmm, nothing on day 2 that could play a similar role as Intcode last year (as in, something shared across multiple days). Well, maybe later.
14:33:53 <rain1> day 2 seems boring
14:54:59 <Arcorann> The first few problems are relatively easy, it'll ramp up as we go
14:55:13 <Arcorann> (you can look at previous years if you want)
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15:18:03 <esowiki> [[User:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79079&oldid=66766 * Moon * (+0) fix to use new username
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15:42:25 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just that day 2 last year did introduce Intcode.
15:44:05 <int-e> fizzie: which was odd in that it was an even numbered day
15:44:28 <int-e> shachaf: 301 islands now
15:45:28 <int-e> Does this game ever end? (I've seen a likely ending spot though. In fact I guessed that through the clouds because it looks like the start. But now I've been close and seen a boat waiting there.)
15:46:08 <int-e> (However, there were some rocks blocking it off... and then the float I came in on took me far, far away again.)
15:47:51 <int-e> half of the islands are (or seem to be, for now) fillers anyway, serving as bridges between more interesting ones
15:56:31 <Taneb> int-e: where are you with so many islands? (what game are you playing?)
15:59:19 <int-e> A Monster's Expedition
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17:08:53 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79080&oldid=78753 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) Undo revision 78753 by [[Special:Contributions/3s0!an9 b0y|3s0!an9 b0y]] ([[User talk:3s0!an9 b0y|talk]]); there's already an implementation
17:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Structure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79081 * LegionMammal978 * (+292) Created page with "Does this language have any input or output? Also, you never really define how "pointer information" vs. "direct information" is supposed to work, especially with <code><&g..."
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17:37:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[SimpIe progranning Ianguage]] to [[SimpIe progranning language]]: fix title
17:39:30 <esowiki> [[SimpIe progranning language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79084&oldid=79082 * LegionMammal978 * (+5) fixed name
17:42:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[.Oneline]] to [[OneLine]]: fix title
17:44:39 <esowiki> [[OneLine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79087&oldid=79085 * LegionMammal978 * (-18) fixed name
17:44:55 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79088&oldid=74518 * LegionMammal978 * (+34)
17:45:46 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79089&oldid=79033 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:46:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79090&oldid=79055 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:46:40 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79091 * Hakerh400 * (+1265) +[[Expensive]]
17:46:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79092&oldid=79017 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Expensive]]
17:46:47 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79093&oldid=79068 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Expensive]]
17:46:53 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79094&oldid=79056 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:47:08 <esowiki> [[User:Zenenbee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79095&oldid=78959 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:47:19 <esowiki> [[Multiline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79096&oldid=78973 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
18:24:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:SHAat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79097&oldid=79037 * LegionMammal978 * (+483)
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20:28:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79098&oldid=63540 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) you forgot to define c
21:10:48 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79099&oldid=79091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) sknil + tac
21:12:45 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79100&oldid=79073 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Example 1 */ spl
21:15:26 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, it's the oddest prime.
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21:46:54 <esowiki> [[Structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79101&oldid=78755 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Give Structure some structure (ha-ha) and rm/add cat (not pattern-based, is it?)
21:47:53 <esowiki> [[Structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79102&oldid=79101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Syntax */ link
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23:49:02 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79103&oldid=77813 * Ais523 * (-27) I don't think 05AB1E is pattern-based; what a command means depends on what byte it is, not on what bytes surround it
2020-12-03
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00:58:56 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79104&oldid=79103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link
01:06:38 <int-e> . o O ( Plan for today... do not play AME, let's see how well that goes. )
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01:19:15 <fizzie> My bridge-building stalled off for some reason, even though I've still got 14/16 of the levels of the last world (out of 5) unfinished, plus almost all (16/16 of 3/5, and 13/16 of one more) of the challenge mode levels that are the same as the originals but with an extra twist.
01:20:07 <int-e> I also have plenty of bridges left to build in the other franchise.
01:20:33 <fizzie> I heard my wife's brother's playing a medieval bridge-building game, is that part of your franchise?
01:20:59 <int-e> This one? https://www.gog.com/game/bridge_constructor_medieval
01:21:18 <int-e> That one I actually finished. It has a cute twist.
01:21:18 <fizzie> Probably. How many medieval bridge construction games could there be?
01:21:33 <int-e> fizzie: I know of one. But there can easily be more...
01:21:57 <int-e> there are three active franchises I think, though I forgot what the third one is.
01:23:07 <int-e> (The twist I mean is that you get to build bridges that are designed to break. I think I've talked about this here, actually.)
01:24:10 <fizzie> Oh, I see.
01:24:59 <int-e> (finished = played all the bridges, with challenges. there'll always be room for optimization.)
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01:58:01 <shachaf> int-e: I haven't played it since we last talked about it.
01:58:15 <shachaf> So now you're way ahead.
01:58:43 <int-e> I played 6 hours yesterday, it was too much.
01:59:20 <int-e> (total time is approaching 8 hours, plus 1 hour for the first test run; I started over two days ago)
01:59:59 <shachaf> I can't tell whether you mean you started more than two days ago or restarted from scratch two days ago.
02:00:02 <int-e> And don't ask me why... I don't really have a good reason. I guess I wanted to see how much I'd learned.
02:00:06 <shachaf> Aha.
02:00:26 <int-e> I think I started three days ago.
02:01:02 <int-e> Oh it's been longer actually, hmm.
02:01:12 <int-e> Time is tricky
02:01:26 <shachaf> That's definitely over two days ago.
02:02:06 <int-e> I guess I tried it out on the 29th, then gave it a rest on the 30th, then started from scratch the 1st, played 6 hours the 2nd, and now it's the 3rd.
02:02:26 <int-e> So 4 days by that measure.
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09:56:27 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79105&oldid=79099 * Hakerh400 * (+38) /* Truth-machine */
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12:25:26 <fizzie> Kind of a slow start. But at least we're back to the '#'s and the '.'s.
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12:25:55 <Taneb> Is there an #esoteric leaderboard for AoC?
12:26:34 <fizzie> Not that I know of. But I think the timed challenge thing kind of doesn't work cross timezones so much, anyway.
12:27:10 <fizzie> And/or with people who aren't going to commit to work on these in a timely manner. :)
12:28:34 <Taneb> Fair enough
12:29:04 <Taneb> I've been naturally waking up at 5AM anyway for a week or so for reasons I can't figure out, which is awful except for the fact it lets me get an early start on AoC
12:29:05 <fizzie> Full disclosure: I'm doing my Go "let's pretend to write this like I'm doing actual software development" thing again, with the "turn all examples into unit tests" stuff and so on, and that's not very optimized for time.
12:29:30 <fizzie> The only time I got points in 2019 was when I forgot to go to bed and it was suddenly 5am.
12:32:20 <Taneb> btw there is a secret intcode reference in today's
12:32:30 <int-e> there was?
12:32:37 <Taneb> In some hovertext
12:32:57 <int-e> the task is boring but there are secret references?
12:33:17 <fizzie> Oh, right, it had those hovertext things, completely forgot about them.
12:34:28 <fizzie> And then post-the-25th, they got highlighted or something.
12:34:43 <rain1> is day 3 worth doing
12:35:06 <int-e> Taneb seems to be taking this seriously.
12:35:15 <rain1> if i don't do them will i stop seeing them eventually?
12:35:44 <fizzie> I'm taking completion % seriously, even if I'm not taking the leaderboards. :)
12:35:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79106&oldid=79092 * Mantita223 * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
12:36:34 <int-e> today I overtook 2200 people between part 1 and part 2 :-P
12:36:51 <int-e> (based on https://adventofcode.com/2020/leaderboard/self )
12:37:12 <int-e> > 29342 {- part 1 rank -} - 27087 {- part 2 rank -}
12:37:14 <lambdabot> 2255
12:37:18 <FireFly> I'm not waking up before 06:00 just for aoc :p
12:37:27 <fizzie> > 32928 - 30496
12:37:29 <lambdabot> 2432
12:38:19 <int-e> I was awake but I was trying to build somebody else's Haskell project which seemed more interesting.
12:38:54 <int-e> I only got around to AoC 6 (minus 5 minutes) hours into their day.
12:40:59 <fizzie> I think I'm mostly surprised about the lack of difference between part 1s and part 2s so far.
12:41:03 <fizzie> As in, not surprised that the grey-to-gold ratio is smaller in https://adventofcode.com/2020/stats than in https://adventofcode.com/2019/stats
12:41:34 <int-e> yeah I had a similar thought
12:43:13 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79107 * Mantita223 * (+732) Created page with "==Yo!ink== Yo!ink is a esoteric programming language made by the user [[mantita223]] The language has very simple syntax, and with a bit of programming knowledge, anyone can u..."
12:45:31 <int-e> maybe it'll get better
12:45:41 <int-e> there's still hope
12:46:24 <int-e> but it should really ramp up the difficulty soon or I'll stop checking for updates and do everything on the 25th :P
12:49:10 <b_jonas> it probably will. they need a few easy problems as bait.
12:49:51 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at this advent of code thing if it's so popular here
12:50:19 <int-e> A few, so 4 wasn't enough? Also the real trick is to make part 1 easy and part 2 difficult.
12:50:39 <int-e> Then ramp those up slowly.
12:52:27 <int-e> Easy to say, of course.
12:53:00 <fizzie> I guess 2019 day 4 isn't really much different than what we've seen so far of 2020, so maybe this is just general 2020 negativity going on.
12:54:29 <int-e> maybe
12:54:47 <int-e> The alternating theme in 2019 was fun.
12:55:23 <int-e> (even though later on the intcode only served as obfuscation for the puzzle input)
12:55:46 <int-e> except for day 25!
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13:52:48 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79108&oldid=79107 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+362) wikitext, cats, links, rm redundant header
14:02:29 <b_jonas> starting to look at Advent of Code 2020 => I'm on an island and I have to collect star coins? what's this, a Mario game?
14:04:19 <int-e> you're not even there yet
14:04:24 <int-e> it's just a mundane job
14:04:28 <int-e> earn money for code
14:04:49 <int-e> it's small amounts of code so you get small amounts of money
14:04:55 <int-e> maybe that's why the problems are so trivial
14:20:40 <b_jonas> how many times or how fast can I retry these problems? because this problem looks like there are only a thousand different possible outputs, so I might just retry submitting random outputs instead of solving it properly
14:23:41 <rain1> you're not supposed to do that
14:26:26 <int-e> it's against the christmas spirit
14:28:42 <Taneb> b_jonas: I think there's a 1 minute timeout but I could be mixed up
14:34:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm. I've definitely taken more than a minute on the second half of this task, and I got the star.
14:34:50 <b_jonas> but we'll see
14:35:42 <fizzie> Not that kind of a timeout, a timeout on how quickly you can repeatedly submit.
14:35:47 <fizzie> I seem to recall it was a minute, too.
14:35:54 <b_jonas> ah thanks
14:36:27 <fizzie> Because the one time I was doing it live, I made a typo when copying the answer when submitting, and had to wait for that, and it was frustrating.
14:36:29 <b_jonas> so the 1000 possibilities are just about possible to brute force
14:36:41 <fizzie> Yeah. FWIW, usually there's a lot more possible answers than that.
14:37:38 <b_jonas> anyway, I got the two yellow star coins for day 1. on to day 2. I haven't seen any red star coins yet.
14:42:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/2 first task asks how many passwords are valid from a list of 1000 passwords. the answer must be between 0 and 1000 inclusive, that's 1001 possibilities. day 1 first task also has about 1000 possibilities if all prices in the input are non-negative integers.
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14:44:02 <fizzie> Yeah, but that's from a sample size of N=2, I was talking more out from 2019 experiences.
14:44:27 <int-e> brute forcing the answer seems more effort than computing it
14:44:27 <b_jonas> sample size 3, because day 1 second task has more possibilities I think
14:44:32 <int-e> in both these cases
14:44:38 <b_jonas> int-e: in these cases, yes
14:46:04 <fizzie> Also I'd say the 2020 days 1-3 (hopefully) aren't terribly representative of AoC as a whole. From 2019, I think days 16, 18, 20 and 22 were among the interesting ones, along with the Intcode stuff in general. Days 16 and 22 both have a nice "part 1 can be very straightfoward, but won't generalize to part 2" thing going on.
14:46:30 <b_jonas> let me solve this day 2 first task then
14:47:18 <fizzie> I don't think it's a spoiler to say that so far the part 2's have been pretty much the same as part 1's, which is a little unfortunate.
14:48:34 <fizzie> Incidentally, this year's day 3's part 1 is definitely brute-forceable too, with an even smaller solution space. Though again there's not really any reason to.
14:49:30 <FireFly> the intcode stuff was a real bummer for people who had planned to do each task in a different language for funs
14:49:31 <b_jonas> so these get updated in the European morning?
14:50:29 <myname> ah, you mean people probably get points for just bruteforcing?
14:50:36 <b_jonas> FireFly: why? intcode is easy enough to implement anew, or if you want to use an older implementation, you can learn how to bridge or combine languages
14:52:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: well I mean, it seemed to get a bit old to reimplement the same VM from what I could tell last year, I saw some noise on twitter wrt it
14:52:27 <FireFly> I didn't really do aoc last year, and in general I've never been good at following through :p
14:52:36 <FireFly> so we'll see how I fare this year
14:53:45 <b_jonas> do we have info for how fast you have to be to get leaderboard points?
14:53:57 <b_jonas> like when the 50th and 100th solutions arrived?
14:54:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: They get updated American east coast midnight, which translates into European quite-early morning.
14:55:28 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes, you can see them in the per-day leaderboards.
14:55:35 <fizzie> https://adventofcode.com/2020/leaderboard/day/2 and so on.
14:55:44 <b_jonas> ah thanks
14:57:39 <b_jonas> looks like you have to be a few minutes after publication for these first days... though later days may be much harder of course
14:59:06 <Taneb> So, I was 4 minutes and 18 seconds too slow to get onto the leaderboards for part 2 this morning :(
15:00:10 <int-e> don't try
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15:25:52 <fizzie> int-e: Do, or do not?
15:30:17 <b_jonas> `? try
15:30:20 <HackEso> There is no try.
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15:51:36 <b_jonas> does this AoC site give some way to prove how many gold stars I have? it shows the count to me, but I have to be logged in for that
15:52:28 <Taneb> Hmm, it does to someone with whom you share a private leaderboard
15:52:47 <b_jonas> ah, so do we have an #esoteric leaderboard?
15:52:56 <b_jonas> `? aoc
15:52:58 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
15:53:44 <Taneb> We do not
16:00:03 <b_jonas> should we have one?
16:00:35 <b_jonas> I guess we can wait for more difficult tasks
16:00:45 <Taneb> I am in favour of having one
16:01:34 <b_jonas> int-e, fizzie: ^
16:12:18 <fizzie> I'm lukewarm, but would have a non-negligible chance of joining if one was created. I don't care about the points thing (and I think it might be kind of pointless for as small a group as this), but the gold star thing is different.
16:12:37 <fizzie> Taneb: You would be, because if you're consistently awake at puzzle publication time, you'll end up having a perfect score on it.
16:18:07 <Taneb> fizzie: that is a fair point but not the whole reason (I like being part of things)
16:20:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: so would a private leaderboard tell how many gold stars we have?
16:20:11 <b_jonas> and red stars if they exist?
16:20:29 <b_jonas> or dragon coins if they call it that
16:21:27 <Taneb> Hang on, I'll get a screenshot of the #haskell leaderboard
16:21:50 <Taneb> https://i.imgur.com/AGbbaIT.png
16:22:18 <fizzie> Note that AIUI you can only have one private leaderboard.
16:22:22 <Taneb> There it shows that a lot of people have done the first three days (it would be a silver star if they had only done part day)
16:22:27 <Taneb> fizzie: you can be a member of many however
16:22:43 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't realize that's what it meant by "you can only have one".
16:22:57 <Taneb> I'm currently in five
16:23:19 <Taneb> But they're each associated with a user (#haskell is glguy for example)
16:23:38 <fizzie> That makes sense. I just misinterpreted the page.
16:37:36 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, with a private leaderboard, do you also get just a top 100, or just however many people are on it?
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16:38:27 <fizzie> (Not that I imagine there'd be a difference for #esoteric.)
16:38:40 <Taneb> I think however many people are in it
16:38:55 <Taneb> Yeah
16:40:50 <b_jonas> Taneb: thanks, that looks like it shows the gold and double gold stars for each task, ideal
16:42:55 <fizzie> And one more thing, are these private leaderboards per-year, or global across the events?
16:43:03 <Taneb> The latter
16:43:10 <Taneb> But you only view one year at a time
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17:33:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Starwort * New user account
17:36:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79109&oldid=79039 * Starwort * (+167) /* Introductions */
17:38:01 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79110&oldid=74826 * Starwort * (+123) Add my Intcode interpreter to the list of interpreters
17:48:06 <fizzie> Heh, looks like the channel isn't the only one getting into AoC mood.
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18:30:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, freenode has programmers elsewhere too
18:37:22 <b_jonas> fungot, you speak British, right? what does "a niggle" mean?
18:37:22 <fungot> b_jonas: oh, well,' said susan. ' that's croaking territory over there.
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19:17:04 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79111&oldid=78722 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+223) Clarification: Jumps outside of the code space are considered errors
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21:03:04 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79112&oldid=79110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Program Structure */ link
21:04:16 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79113&oldid=79112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ wikipedia link
21:51:50 <esowiki> [[Decision shrub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79114&oldid=78608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Example of a decision shrub */ I meant FIX before
21:53:23 <esowiki> [[Befreak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79115&oldid=79058 * CatIsFluffy * (-8) smaller program based on the example on the page
21:56:51 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79116&oldid=74959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* The proof */ link to bf
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23:08:46 <zzo38> Firefox loads EPUB files fine, but in order to load them, you have to add "jar:" at the beginning of the URL (before "file:") and add "!/" at the end of the URL, and then it will work.
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2020-12-04
00:50:11 <moony> `? hth
00:50:17 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
00:54:49 <moony> `? hackeso
00:54:50 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
00:54:55 <moony> `? hackego
00:54:56 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
00:55:47 <int-e> Regarding an AoC #esoteric leaderboard... I try hard not to be competetive about this. So I'm rather disinclined.
00:57:48 <int-e> Not that that should stop anybody. But it won't be large enough for lurking anonymously (in contrast to the #haskell one which I did actually join)
01:08:01 <esowiki> [[Befreak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79117&oldid=79115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) link
01:13:03 <zzo38> (I don't know how common it is to load EPUB files in Firefox in this way.)
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03:35:25 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+719) Created page with "Flipfractal is an experimental variant of [[Memfractal]], which was created by [[User:Zzo38]]. It takes ideas from [[BackFlip]] and the Memfractal specifications by User:Cam..."
03:36:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79119&oldid=79106 * Delta23 * (+18) add flipfractal
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03:45:08 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79120&oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+88) Add truth machine example
03:52:41 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79121&oldid=79120 * Delta23 * (+172) Minor details
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04:44:49 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79122&oldid=79105 * Hakerh400 * (+84) /* Hello, world! */
04:45:39 <zzo38> What camera settings should be used to take pictures of Christmas lights?
04:47:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79123&oldid=79090 * Hakerh400 * (+66) +[[Expensive]]
04:50:36 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79124&oldid=79123 * Hakerh400 * (+48) +[[Flipfractal]]
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06:39:28 <int-e> okay I can't complain that the second AoC part wasn't harder today
06:39:41 <int-e> the new complaint is that it's so mundane
07:22:36 <zzo38> I can run Hero Mesh on DOSBOX, but it is slow.
07:23:36 <zzo38> (I would like to have more testers for Free Hero Mesh)
07:24:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like A Monster's Expedition?
07:25:18 <zzo38> I don't know.
07:25:51 <zzo38> (I don't know what it is, either, and I did not find it on Wikipedia, either)
07:32:19 <shachaf> Oh, it's a puzzle computer game.
07:33:53 <zzo38> OK
07:39:08 <shachaf> `? this
07:39:10 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
07:39:32 <shachaf> i,i `learn This month, this is A Monster's Expedition. Do you like this?
07:53:21 <zzo38> In Hero Mesh (and also in Free Hero Mesh once it is completed), you can rewind as much as you want, and you can also edit the move list to insert or delete moves. So far, I think most FOSS puzzle games don't do this.
07:53:59 <int-e> xsok did it ages ago :P
07:54:17 <int-e> (though "editing" is maybe a bit of a stretch)
07:54:30 <zzo38> Yes, maybe some do, but it would seem that most don't (although most proprietary puzzle games also don't)
07:54:40 <int-e> (but the binary save file format isn't hard to read and write)
07:56:58 <zzo38> Sokoban is strictly turn based and deterministic, like Hero Mesh is, though.
07:57:35 <int-e> AME is also strictly turn based
07:58:09 <int-e> And borrows the basic push-only Sokoban mechanic... and then goes surprisingly wild with it.
07:58:35 <zzo38> Yes, and some other games too
08:00:44 <zzo38> I found the documentation for xsok now.
08:03:00 <int-e> xsok was an addiction for me... I've patched it (adding more level sets, fixing a couple of bugs, modifying the pixmaps, most notably to make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not)...
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08:09:30 <int-e> and I've spent 100s of hours optimizing solutions by hand
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08:14:36 <zzo38> There are some of the features like Hero Mesh in xsok, although xsok isn't as versatile (although it does allow customizing the scoring definition). That includes the attributes Strength (called Power in xsok) and Weight, and a few other things.
08:15:31 <zzo38> Maybe it also might be possible later converting xsok levels into Free Hero Mesh, too.
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08:22:21 <zzo38> Automatically testing it also it seem to be possible (also for conversions from Hero Mesh to Free Hero Mesh, too); if you have a recording of the moves of the solution, it can check that it is a valid solution.
08:23:00 <int-e> translucent boxes in action: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/xbox.png
08:23:33 <int-e> (the actor is so ugly...)
08:24:35 <zzo38> Yes, that is good that the boxes is translucent now.
08:25:30 <int-e> these are my own private changes though :P
08:25:53 <zzo38> Yes, the actor isn't so good, and I don't like the floor graphics so much either
08:26:44 <int-e> though I suppose replacing an installed xpm file is a no-brainer
08:28:46 <int-e> so if you care: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/objects.xpm.gz
08:28:49 <zzo38> Most programs that deal with XPM do not support all of its features (although my own implementation implements more than most do, still it doesn't implement the Lisp format)
08:30:27 <int-e> Oh right, xsok had a box you can step into... a bit like a fully turned over table in Hiding Place
08:30:44 <int-e> (including the possibility to push it around with another box)
08:35:50 <zzo38> Unlike xsok (and maybe some others), Free Hero Mesh is using that the definitions for classes of objects can contain program codes to be executed, when it receives a message.
08:38:03 <zzo38> (Some of the ideas in xsok are things I had thought of too independently to implement in Free Hero Mesh, such as the bookmark. I had also thought of custom scoring, but I am not sure if I will implement that.)
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10:02:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sertdfyguhi * New user account
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10:47:21 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79125&oldid=79074 * Aspwil * (+159) /* Instructions */
10:47:35 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79126&oldid=79125 * Aspwil * (+3) /* Instructions */
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11:32:11 <rain1> ooof day 4 would be a hassle in C
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11:43:22 <Arcorann> I wonder how many people are doing AoC in esolangs this year
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12:04:36 <Taneb> I'm aware of someone doing it in Nix and someone doing it in APL but neither of them are quite esolangs
12:07:26 <shachaf> Taneb: Haneb
12:07:45 <shachaf> Invent anything lately?
12:08:59 <Hooloovo0> I think there's a couple people on the TI channels that are attempting it in TI-Basic
12:11:33 <shachaf> Is that the language used on the TI-83?
12:11:41 <shachaf> I think I wrote some programs in that to draw semifancy pictures.
12:13:33 <Arcorann> I saw someone put up a BBC Basic editor online --> https://bbcmic.ro/
12:15:02 <Hooloovo0> yeah, basically. as TI has moved to color it's changed a bit but not really that much
12:15:25 <Taneb> shachaf: I might have invented enriched categories this morning
12:15:26 <Hooloovo0> for most of the AoC stuff it's not that different I think?
12:15:52 <shachaf> Taneb: Niceo McMiceo, enriched over what?
12:16:42 <Taneb> I started with the (R, +, <=) as an ordered monoid as a monoidal poset and worked up from there
12:16:55 <Taneb> (I was thinking about metric spaces)
12:19:05 <Taneb> (and in particular, why they use the real numbers)
12:21:22 <fizzie> I think I wrote something semifancy in the TI-86 dialect of TI-Basic too.
12:21:58 <fizzie> And our maths teacher was incredibly enthusiastic about it. He had one of those slide projector attachments for his TI-85-or-86.
12:22:58 <fizzie> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-I-ViewScreen-85-Graphing-Calculator-Projector/181006275400
12:23:01 <fizzie> That kind of thing.
12:24:22 <fizzie> Also don't buy that one, there's a much cheaper listing for one as well. But maybe you're not in the market for it anyway.
12:28:34 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79127&oldid=79121 * Delta23 * (+168) add smaller Truth Machine variant with differing design
12:32:25 <shachaf> What happened was: My classmate showed me a program he'd written on his calculator that drew fractals or something, and I was impressed, and made my own version of the idea with some tweaks.
12:32:43 <shachaf> Later it turned out that the program, line for line, was in the calculator manual, which I'd never seen.
12:33:50 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real?
12:34:42 <Taneb> shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis
12:34:51 <shachaf> Ah, that seems likely.
12:35:41 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you saw https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 from a while ago.
12:35:48 <shachaf> Which that website is really not the best place for.
12:36:13 <shachaf> The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly.
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12:39:30 <Arcorann> I remember in high school optimising the Factor12 and that probability-related program that got passed around the class
12:49:22 <Hooloovo0> fizzie I've already got a viewscreen 86 :)
12:49:45 <Hooloovo0> been a while since I've done any 85/86 programming, I should get back into it but you know how projects go
12:51:35 <Hooloovo0> (I really should get an overhead projector so I can display them properly)
12:51:48 <Hooloovo0> s/them/my viewscreens)
13:10:58 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79128&oldid=79127 * Delta23 * (+273) Add computational class ideas (tree stack automata?)
13:13:10 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79129&oldid=79128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) kl
13:15:45 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79130&oldid=79129 * Delta23 * (+330) add more information
13:19:12 <esowiki> [[State and Main]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79131&oldid=74324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Truth-machine */ add notice
13:21:25 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79132&oldid=74002 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) cats
13:25:10 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79133&oldid=79130 * Delta23 * (+253) Change it to Torus program space and add multithreaded variant
13:25:55 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79134&oldid=67742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Implementation */ c
13:30:25 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79135&oldid=79133 * Delta23 * (+85) add blackhole instruction
13:38:03 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79136&oldid=79135 * Delta23 * (+244) blackhole is optional + reasoning
13:39:49 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79137&oldid=79134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+198) Add a [[truth-machine]]
13:41:21 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79138&oldid=79124 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Grawlix */ [[Gregorovich]]
13:43:46 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79139&oldid=71278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Examples */ hm
13:53:02 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79140&oldid=72672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Builtins */ clarify
13:54:09 <esowiki> [[Uack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79141&oldid=71604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Examples */ cat
14:05:11 <arseniiv_> shachaf: Taneb: I thought any ordered field (and adding ±∞ for ∞-metric spaces) would do, and reals are just one very useful celebrity. But if I’m not mistaken, you can use “ℚ-metric spaces” to define ℝ itself as a legit (ℚ-)metric completion (of ℚ). Then as ℚ is minimal, you can’t get any simpler, but you also probably don’t want things like ℚ[√5, √71]. There *could* be sense to use algebraic numbers, though (in computa
14:05:11 <arseniiv_> tional stuff?). There also may be reason to use something finer than ℝ but that will be non-Archimedean, as you know, and maybe that bars many possile applications, compared with ℝ, algebraics or ℚ
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14:07:20 <arseniiv> also please tell if I shouldn’t use ℝ and ℚ characters if they display poorly (they do for me)
14:07:36 <arseniiv> (I think not many fonts have them)
14:10:05 <arseniiv> but I think I doesn’t know much more about why there is ℝ. Hopefully these reasons (barring historical ones) are convincing enough. They convince me maybe 4/5 through
14:10:33 <arseniiv> but I think I doesn’t know => wow how did I write that
14:14:08 <rain1> what's this about?
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14:24:21 <b_jonas> `olist 1221
14:24:22 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:25:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: are the Christmas lights steady or flashing?
14:33:02 <arseniiv> rain1: <Taneb> (I was thinking about metric spaces) <Taneb> (and in particular, why they use the real numbers) <shachaf> Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real? <Taneb> shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis
14:33:35 <arseniiv> hm I should have linked to logs but I’m lazy :D
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14:40:36 <rain1> hmm
14:41:02 <rain1> it's a good question
14:41:26 <rain1> I think it is because the real numbers are a unique ordered field with limits
14:48:18 <arseniiv> rain1: non-archimedean ordered fields necessary have non-unique limits?
14:48:42 <Taneb> arseniiv: the definition of metric space seems to only require an ordered monoid, none of the laws refer to multiplication, division, or even subtraction
14:52:26 <arseniiv> Taneb: yeah, though surely there will be some reason why just monoid is too weak for many occasions. Though right now I don’t have an argument even why it would be good for it to be a semiring
14:54:17 <Taneb> I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total
14:55:28 <b_jonas> I know some puzzle games that at least let you undo steps for free: Baba is you, and tom7's Escape
14:56:18 <b_jonas> int-e: "make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not" => some sokoban games use a custom tile for a box on a target
14:57:56 <Taneb> arseniiv: possibly for any ordered monoid M, an M-metric space is equivalent to some R-metric space?
14:58:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Snakebird too
14:59:29 <b_jonas> "enriched categories" => with savory spices?
14:59:36 <arseniiv> Taneb: if that monoid comes to be hyperreals, it should be impossible but I’m not totally sure
15:00:36 <Taneb> arseniiv: that seems correct
15:02:08 <b_jonas> "The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly." => yep. long ago I asked why homotopy was defined in a way that depended on the real numbers. I got partial answers.
15:04:42 <arseniiv> Taneb: then we may try to characterise which ordered monoids sit inside reals and which don’t, maybe it can still be expressed in a useful way
15:05:20 <arseniiv> or maybe we should take extended reals R ∪ {±∞} already
15:06:15 <arseniiv> they are necessary to make (undirected) graphs into so-called ∞-metric spaces. I’d rather define usual metric spaces as these from the start, though
15:07:07 <arseniiv> as infinite distance is frequently necessary in practical applications (it seems for me)
15:07:46 <arseniiv> well at least [weighted] graphs would take a big chunk by themselves
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15:11:25 <arseniiv> <Taneb> I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total => BTW several months ago I tried to formalize cyclical and total orders as two kinds of the general thing, though that ended up too useless
15:13:24 <arseniiv> it was based on that you can inject some total order as a kind of a segment/interval in that space. The definition tried to capture all the intervals in that space
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15:13:39 <arseniiv> maybe the idea would be interesting to somebody
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15:16:35 <arseniiv> actually, not just intervals but “paths which don’t skip elements”, as you can walk circles on, well, a circle
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15:20:13 <Taneb> ...what do you mean by cyclical order?
15:22:45 <arseniiv> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_order
15:22:54 <arseniiv> (also there is a partial one too)
15:22:59 <Taneb> Ah, I'd not encountered that before
15:25:16 <arseniiv> Z/nZ are ubiquitous examples of this but I hadn’t seen the general notion until recently too
15:26:23 <arseniiv> Z/nZ-the-rings
16:14:02 <int-e> shachaf: 385 and still no end. also I'm now on an island with no clue what to do.
16:18:45 <int-e> (well I do have an objective in mind... it wouldn't be the first time that that objective is wrong. open world effect...)
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17:06:53 <b_jonas> eye color and *hair color* are required fields? and name and issuer and passport types aren't? funny
17:06:57 <b_jonas> also height
17:19:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Joman522 * New user account
17:25:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79142&oldid=79109 * Joman522 * (+207) /* Introductions */
17:27:09 <b_jonas> hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa says that the Leaning Tower of Pisa was declared "stabled for at least another 300 years" in 2001-12, and later declared "stable for at least 200 years" in 2008-05. a naive linear interpolation suggests that we should visit the tower soon, because it will be declared potentially unsafe during next year.
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18:41:46 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79143&oldid=79136 * Delta23 * (+68) add tree stack access program example
18:45:24 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79144&oldid=79143 * Delta23 * (+28) make important note of behavior, could be used for TC proof
18:52:28 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+6780) Created page with "Creating IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang (can be shortened to ITAMFSARL) is an esoteric programming language created december 12, 2020 by [[User:SoicBR]] which..."
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18:59:22 <arseniiv> BTW en.wikipedia states: “If the distance function takes values in some (suitable) ordered set (and the triangle inequality is adjusted accordingly), then we arrive at the notion of generalized ultrametric.”
19:00:46 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79146&oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+98)
19:06:53 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79147&oldid=79144 * Delta23 * (+385) Add abstract machine within flipfractal
19:11:31 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79148&oldid=79147 * Delta23 * (+122) note
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20:09:41 <zzo38> b_jonas: Some Christmas lights are flashy and some aren't, including the ones together
20:12:19 <b_jonas> so they are flashy. that's more difficult because it's hard to show the flashing pattern on a static photo. but christmas lights can be hard in first place because they're dark and so visible only when the rest of the scene is dark
20:13:58 <b_jonas> but I don't think they have any really special tricks besides the usual low light photos. use a tripod if you can't hold the camera steady enough, hold the camera steady with two hands under and stick to 0.5 seconds exposure if you don't have a tripod
20:14:49 <b_jonas> if you do have a tripod, you might try to take two pictures, one for the lights and one for the background, and compose them later.
20:15:23 <zzo38> They are incandescent lights
20:17:18 <zzo38> The lights appear too bright compared with the rest of the picture
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21:00:55 <b_jonas> int-e: I like this mundane data validation. it's the sort of thing that I do at work every day. it's rewarding. I keep finding problems in things that are in production and that other people have supposedly "tested" and signed off as working. sometimes it never worked, more often it's about new features that got added after those supposed "tests", but added in a half-assed way that doesn't really make
21:01:01 <b_jonas> them work.
21:01:47 <b_jonas> except of course I don't get this nice specification about what counts as valid, that's the part that I have to write. coding it is the easy part.
21:02:08 <b_jonas> and usuall there are much more complicated relations that have to be held, involving joins, instead of just single field values.
21:02:17 <b_jonas> but still, it's just about this mundane
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21:25:25 <esowiki> [[Ackermann function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79149&oldid=57452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-50) wikipedia link
21:29:41 <esowiki> [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79150&oldid=62923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) definition, stub, cat
21:35:51 <esowiki> [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79151&oldid=67600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) This isn't very well a program form
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21:38:51 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79152&oldid=71479 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Spreading */
21:39:31 <esowiki> [[Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79153&oldid=73008 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) hm...
21:42:21 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79154&oldid=70216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Computational class */ example + links
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21:48:35 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79155&oldid=79154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* External resources */ cat, waybacks
21:50:10 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79156&oldid=66884 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Unbounded programs */ I hardly see how this is a stub
21:56:07 <esowiki> [[Binary lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79157&oldid=70655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) code, link
21:59:15 <esowiki> [[Quadratic sync problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79158&oldid=62891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Computational class */ cat
22:00:02 <esowiki> [[Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79159&oldid=68215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat (please correct if wrong)
22:00:25 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79160&oldid=75841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) cat link
22:03:19 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79161&oldid=79148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) clean up a bit
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22:25:24 <esowiki> [[Spice]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79162 * Slord * (+2396) Created page with "== Summary == A programming language for 'Golfing' in an assembly-like/lite environment. - Spice is an interpreted assembly-like language with a handful of operators: ADD, `S..."
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22:41:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79163&oldid=79119 * Slord * (+12)
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2020-12-05
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00:33:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79164&oldid=79142 * Sertdfyguhi * (+138)
00:33:54 <esowiki> [[Plts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79165 * Sertdfyguhi * (+912) Created page with "<p>plts(programming language that sucks) is a stack-based programming language invented in 2020 by me.</p> <h1>Commands</h1> <ul> <li><code>?[letter]</code>: push letter to..."
00:35:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79166&oldid=79163 * Sertdfyguhi * (+11)
00:46:35 <esowiki> [[Plts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79167&oldid=79165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) wikitext, cats
01:38:32 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79168&oldid=56988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Implementations */ eso policy
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03:07:20 <esowiki> [[User:Expliked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79169&oldid=78694 * Expliked * (-13)
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04:02:21 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79170&oldid=79161 * Delta23 * (-7) fix typo
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05:09:52 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79171 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1013) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''ewpl'''(even worse programming language) is a programming language invented by me in 2020. ==Language Overview== This language uses a single cell to store as..."
05:10:08 <esowiki> [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79172&oldid=79167 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1)
05:11:34 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79173&oldid=79171 * Sertdfyguhi * (+109)
05:12:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79174&oldid=79166 * Sertdfyguhi * (+11)
05:16:57 <int-e> . o O ( getting worse. no code for today. )
05:17:33 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79175 * Sertdfyguhi * (+233) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} I'm a programmer with more than half a year of experience. My most favourite languages are JavaScript and Python. ==esolangs I made== [[plts]] <br> [[ewpl]] ==..."
05:22:25 <int-e> shachaf: Never mind about being stuck, I just missed a corner case. I've reached the end now, though obviously there are some lose ends yet to discover...
05:22:58 <shachaf> Hopefully you reached the win end rather than a lose end.
05:23:03 <int-e> Currently 450 islands, 3 friends... missing at least 2 more friends (I've seen them, but not managed to get there)
05:23:09 <int-e> there's a lose end?
05:23:16 <shachaf> That's what you said.
05:23:24 <int-e> loose, oops
05:23:27 <int-e> thanks
05:24:16 <int-e> (actually the final island is all one land mass but counts as several islands)
05:25:50 <shachaf> I didn't mean to do an obnoxious correction. I was instead trying to make an obnoxious opportunistic pun.
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05:27:21 <int-e> it's okay, I just hadn't noticed my typo
05:55:09 <int-e> oh... winning removes the global clouds, leaving only the ones over islands you have not yet visited
05:55:22 <int-e> that seems useful for eventual completion
05:55:42 <int-e> and I made another friend
05:57:44 <int-e> What else is interesting... I've reached the 13 hours mark.
06:02:27 <shachaf> That's a lot more than my hours.
06:02:40 <shachaf> I should catch up in islands or at least in hours.
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08:41:24 <b_jonas> day 5 is much simpler than day 4, but perhaps only because I'm familiar with this sort of problem
08:50:54 <Hooloovo0> so I'm on another channel where people are doing AoC, #cemetech on efnet
08:51:35 <b_jonas> hi Hooloovo0
08:51:52 <Hooloovo0> they also have a "write something in a bunch of languages" challenge... which seems like exactly the kind of thing yall would be interested in
08:51:56 <Hooloovo0> what's up?
08:56:45 <int-e> b_jonas: it's worse, the input generator sucks
08:58:02 <int-e> (as mentioned earlier I didn't write any special code)
08:58:09 <b_jonas> int-e: the input generator for what?
08:58:20 <int-e> for AoC today
08:58:51 <b_jonas> int-e: how so? doesn't it just generate an interval less one and shuffle it?
08:59:24 <int-e> b_jonas: try sort < input | sed s=.........== and see if you can see a pattern
09:00:03 <int-e> no, it has plenty of gaps
09:00:24 <int-e> hmm
09:00:27 <b_jonas> hmm
09:00:29 <int-e> you're right
09:01:07 <b_jonas> int-e: what pattern? if you sort it you'll get them all in order, so they have to be consecutive numbers in binary.
09:01:27 <b_jonas> it has to be LRLRLRL... with one stumble in it
09:01:47 <b_jonas> but it's probably shuffled
09:02:05 <b_jonas> as for the gaps, the spec asks you to give the gap as a solution, and the one I got has exactly one gap, I verified that when solving
09:02:16 <b_jonas> no free seats on this airplane
09:02:38 <int-e> I didn't think the plane would be fully occupied
09:03:20 <int-e> okay now I'm even more disappointed
09:03:28 <b_jonas> int-e: the spec says "It's a completely full flight, so your seat should be the only missing boarding pass in your list."
09:04:11 <int-e> how do you even get on the plane without a boarding pass
09:04:54 <int-e> anyway, you're right, it's boring by specification, not by accident
09:05:32 <int-e> And I solved it by hand.
09:05:52 <int-e> (and sort and dc for conversion from binary)
09:06:57 <b_jonas> int-e: the story may have happened before 2001
09:07:38 <b_jonas> int-e: but even now, everyone knows how imperfect the security is in airports
09:07:45 <b_jonas> you can find stories about it on the internet
09:08:06 <int-e> Yeah it's largely security theater
09:08:47 <int-e> or commercial interest (the liquid restrictions make food vendors in the transit zone quite happy I'm sure)
09:09:30 <b_jonas> int-e: but to be precise, I think the protagonist lost their boarding pass in the long queuing corridor between the electronic boarding pass check and the airplane. an attendent at the airplane entrance looks at some of the boarding passes, but mostly to direct you to the right seat if you want, and at that point I think they let on anyone without a boarding pass
09:09:47 <int-e> true
09:10:24 <b_jonas> or this is still in one of the foreign lands that Mario visits, with star coins and red star/dragon coins, and it works quite different from our world
09:10:49 <b_jonas> ok give me a second, Irregular is about to update
09:10:59 <b_jonas> I want to catch it in the first second
09:11:14 <b_jonas> yup, late by a few seconds as usual so I had to keep refreshing
09:12:07 <b_jonas> well, not really late, but a few seconds after the nominal update time which is given to a minute precision only
09:14:17 <b_jonas> and actually not even that anymore, because the FAQ no longer mentions the update time, only the forum and a news entry about moving it one hour earlier does
09:14:59 <b_jonas> that change really felt strange at first by the way, changing the reliable schedule that has been there for a decade and only broken a few times by accident and once deliberately during that
09:17:20 <b_jonas> Irregular is like 17 years old, it's crazy
09:17:49 <b_jonas> well, a bit less since it had years of hiatus
09:17:51 <b_jonas> but sttill
09:18:17 <b_jonas> the time of day when it and the other comics were published was unchanged for a very long time, even through the hiatus
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10:09:41 <int-e> `grwp gray
10:09:44 <HackEso> No output.
10:09:45 <int-e> `grwp grey
10:09:46 <HackEso> gray:Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
10:10:20 <int-e> How about "græy"
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10:27:08 <b_jonas> `? græy
10:27:10 <HackEso> græy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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10:39:03 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79176 * Delta23 * (+697) finite state brainfuck idea
10:40:52 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79177&oldid=79176 * Delta23 * (+154) idea for infinite looping, would it change something?
10:42:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79178&oldid=79174 * Delta23 * (+29) add finite state brainfuck to lang list
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11:32:36 <b_jonas> fungot, are you friends with any of the Ancient ones?
11:32:36 <fungot> b_jonas: the man spat on the ground and, after they've done it, though, complaining like badly oiled pumps and smelling like a thousand damp carpets. men in djeliba moved among them and occasionally hit them with the other scrap. keep ‘em separate. keep a pot special for it, and all you needed to boil an egg," said
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12:31:06 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, so about that "usually the solution space is larger" comment, I was basing that on 2019, when it was true even for early days. This year is shaping to be somewhat different.
12:31:13 <fizzie> Also wrote my day 5 expecting there to be something about rows and columns separately in part 2, but there wasn't. Now I'm wondering whether to streamline that from `pass -> (row, col) -> ID` to `pass -> ID`. But I've got unit tests for the steps separately already.
12:32:44 <myname> there is
12:33:08 <myname> convert F and L to 0 and B and R to 1, parse as binary
12:37:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: heh, yeah, this one was so easy I didn't even consider brute forcing the solution space without looking at the boarding slips, but I guess it would have been thematically appropriate, just trying to sit in every seat and see if I'm kicked out
12:38:55 <b_jonas> the first part was so quick that I didn't have time to wonder what the second part would have, plus the first part already basically gave away that you're looking at the boarding passes to find your seat that's missing from them, so it wasn't much of a surprise
12:39:37 <b_jonas> but admittedly I didn't know before that that it would be a single interval, with like all eight seats existing in all rows (except first and last), unlike on a real airplane
12:39:46 <b_jonas> this is like a one-dimensional airplane
12:41:18 <b_jonas> or a 21st century one: a discount airline with no first class section with fewer seats per row, because that's not their business model, if someone has money for first class they will buy it from an airline whose service is not so bad as theirs
12:41:20 <myname> i don't think it's more one-dimensional than a real airplane
12:45:13 <b_jonas> I still don't understand part of their business model: there are people who pay for the supposed privilage of boarding the airplane earlier. why? isn't that a hindrance? even the worst waiting room is more comfortable than an airplane, so I always try to get on the plane as late as possible, to spend the least time on it.
12:46:52 <b_jonas> at least that was the situation before 2020; I haven't exprienced airplane flight since then
12:49:15 <b_jonas> even selling the supposed privilage of choosing your seat seems weird to me. that one at least isn't a clear drawback, but I'm not paying for that, and typically get the good seats: the ones that are close to the aisle so I can get up easily, and not in the extra legroom rows, which means I can keep some of my luggage close, under the seat in front of me. this doesn't always work, I have been seated at
12:49:21 <b_jonas> the extra legroom emergency exit row once, but usually it does.
12:49:40 <b_jonas> but admittedly some people have very long legs, and for them the extra legroom rows may be an advantage
12:51:19 <myname> i am working in a software company for the aviation industry and never sat in a plane :D
12:51:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure how "there is" was an answer to what I said.
12:53:08 <fizzie> I think I took an intra-US flight on a plane that was kind of like that, except with 6 columns rather than 8.
12:53:31 <fizzie> Although it couldn't have been that one, because they had no seat reservations either.
12:54:55 <fizzie> (You get a boarding number based on how early you checked in and whether you paid extra to get a lower number, and then they just sort you in a queue based on that number and board in that order, and seats are first-come-first-served.)
12:55:53 <b_jonas> myname: and I'm working in a software company for the chemical industry, but never used the things that those chemical plants produce.
12:56:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, American flights work somewhat differently from European ones
12:56:38 <b_jonas> in multiple ways
12:58:12 <b_jonas> myname: and I sat on airplanes too many times
12:58:27 <b_jonas> and probably will, because these days it's too cheap
12:58:50 <myname> go so so, you may as well secure my job :S
12:58:52 <myname> :D
12:59:37 <b_jonas> well, probably not during the pandemic
12:59:59 <b_jonas> but my mother will arrive home soon (next weekend), on airplane
13:18:13 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79179&oldid=71468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Resources */ deadlink
13:35:06 <Arcorann> Actually this airplane is really big - I can't think of any commercial plane that seats over 900 people
13:37:11 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79180&oldid=79173 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Hello, world! program */ implemented
13:37:40 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79181&oldid=79180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello, world! program */ total
13:40:44 <b_jonas> Arcorann: true
13:40:59 <b_jonas> that part is a bit futuristic
13:41:42 <b_jonas> although I prefer a future where that won't be necessary because the vacuum train network that Elon Musk builds takes the bulk of the passenger traffic
13:43:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79182&oldid=79013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22633) rm some things
13:44:05 <fizzie> Wikipedia says you can in theory stick 853 passengers on an A380, which is pretty close.
13:44:48 <fizzie> "Other proposed variants included an A380-900 stretch – seating -- up to 960 passengers in an all-economy configuration --"
13:45:20 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79183&oldid=79177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) Headers, links, cats
13:54:56 <esowiki> [[Niblet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79184&oldid=68876 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Hello World */ cat
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14:13:15 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79186&oldid=73314 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Program structure */ at least partially sane
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15:14:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Insanity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79187 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+227) /* Order of operations? */ new section
15:19:51 <b_jonas> fungot, what does the "S" in "SQL" stand for? suffering? or several, for how many different dialects there are?
15:19:51 <fungot> b_jonas: in the sudden silence. ' i really must be off, then. maybe you could... help us?"
15:20:51 <b_jonas> "sudden silence"? ok.
15:33:17 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79188&oldid=79183 * Delta23 * (+41) confirmed finite with inputs
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15:49:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's not actually an "S", it's the Kryptonian symbol of hope, which just coincidentally happens to resemble the letter S of the Latin alphabet, and is therefore usually rendered using that for technical reasons.
15:52:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
15:53:34 <b_jonas> so it's "ЅQL"?
15:55:25 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79189&oldid=78998 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+262) /* Other things */ [[Bfos]], [[Decision shrub]], [[Insanity]], [[Voxvy]], [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]]
16:00:07 <fizzie> `unidecode Ѕ
16:00:10 <HackEso> ​[U+0405 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DZE]
16:00:21 <fizzie> I'm not an expert, maybe that's closer.
16:33:57 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79190&oldid=79186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Fibonacci sequence */ cats (Interpreter coming soon if User:A responds)
16:37:38 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79191&oldid=75640 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Variables */ of
16:42:05 <esowiki> [[Chafa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79192&oldid=66154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+165) cats/notice/stub
16:45:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:Yasser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79193&oldid=20830 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) see.also
16:45:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Yasser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79194&oldid=79193 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-128) Undo revision 79193 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])m
16:49:19 <esowiki> [[ClearBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79195&oldid=27131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220) /* External resources */ waybacks
16:50:14 <esowiki> [[ClearBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79196&oldid=79195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* External resources */ seeAlso()
16:51:40 <esowiki> [[Tbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79197&oldid=71006 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) headers, cat
16:56:12 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79198&oldid=75214 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementation */ catfix
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17:42:18 <arseniiv> int-e: b_jonas: . o O ( Græy is an uncommon spelling of both. )
17:42:32 <arseniiv> `? both
17:42:34 <HackEso> both? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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19:52:26 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79199&oldid=79094 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
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22:14:48 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79200&oldid=79146 * SoicBR * (-14)
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2020-12-06
00:39:03 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79201&oldid=79168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Implementations */ wayback, list
00:51:39 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79202&oldid=71057 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello World */ lk
01:08:39 <b_jonas> this will be the first Christmas that I won't be celebrating while being in person together with my brother. it's a bit sad.
01:09:02 <b_jonas> we'll still have some internet stuff of course
01:28:53 <fizzie> Oddly enough, we've spent the last five Christmases here in the UK without meeting any family, but now we're planning on doing the video call thing, even though we could've done that any of the past years.
01:37:07 <b_jonas> it's been mixed for us, there were two non-consecutive years where we spent christmas at my brothers' in Sweden, which has the drawback of not being able to spend one day around christmas with my grandma
01:39:38 <zzo38> Someone who wishes to help for testing with Free Hero Mesh can compare with the behaviour of the EKS Hero Mesh; you will need the 16-bit Windows shareware version of Hero Defiant or Falling Hero (I think the 32-bit versions disable the class editor if you do not register, but the 16-bit versions still allow it to be used).
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01:55:51 <zzo38> What exactly is "VCC+GIGICAR 1989 !!"? Some Amiga music files contain this as the title, and they are not all the same music.
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01:57:27 <zzo38> (They do not all identify the same composers either)
02:03:09 <fizzie> The database says there are two Frenchpeople with those names, http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/author.php?id=3895 and http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/author.php?id=36020 -- so perhaps that's related somehow.
02:09:29 <zzo38> Yes, maybe it is related.
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08:31:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cybertelx * New user account
08:34:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79203&oldid=79164 * Cybertelx * (+238)
08:35:23 <esowiki> [[User:Cybertelx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79204 * Cybertelx * (+106) Created page with "Hi guys! I'm Cybertelx, the creator of a programming language known as Dick, published on npm as Dicklang."
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09:16:16 <esowiki> [[Dick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79205 * Cybertelx * (+1757) dick
09:17:20 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79206&oldid=79205 * Cybertelx * (+63) added some clarification
09:21:27 <esowiki> [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79207&oldid=79206 * Cybertelx * (+106) added categories
09:22:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79208&oldid=79178 * Cybertelx * (+11)
09:23:02 <esowiki> [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79209&oldid=79207 * Cybertelx * (-28) remove joke lang
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11:25:38 <int-e> wtf is up with all those languages without any form of control flow
11:26:19 <imode> which ones.
11:27:19 <int-e> imode: are you ignoring esowiki? The latest addition is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dick which is about as terrible as it sounds, maybe more so.
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11:27:30 <imode> yeah..
11:27:49 <int-e> imode: I'm not blaming you, but in this case you lost relevant context :)
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11:28:22 <imode> it's less of a hard ignore, more "I just don't see it anymore".
11:28:25 <imode> my eyes glaze over it.
11:28:37 <delta23> why is that language in the TC category?
11:29:02 <imode> why did someone think that was a worthy addition.
11:29:07 <int-e> presumably cluelessness on part of the author
11:29:30 <int-e> and that may answer both questions, actually
11:31:01 <delta23> lots of low effort joke esolangs on the wiki
11:33:56 <esowiki> [[Pointless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79210&oldid=75241 * Int-e * (+0) speling of category
11:34:25 <delta23> "speling" :)
11:35:43 <esowiki> [[*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79211&oldid=75203 * Int-e * (+0) category spilling
11:37:19 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79212&oldid=77575 * Int-e * (-1) catypogory
11:38:29 <esowiki> [[QTTRPG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79213&oldid=77578 * Int-e * (-20) remove unpopulated category
11:39:17 <esowiki> [[Complack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79214&oldid=77804 * Int-e * (-20) remove non-category
11:39:49 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79215&oldid=77006 * Int-e * (-66) remove non-category
11:40:54 <esowiki> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79216&oldid=76511 * Int-e * (-66) remove non-category
11:42:42 <esowiki> [[Absurd Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79217&oldid=68937 * Int-e * (-38) remove non-category
11:43:07 <int-e> I guess that's the worst offenders from https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&offset=&limit=500
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11:44:47 <int-e> Not sure how I feel about graph-based... it could be viable actually if it were to encompass the graph rewriting ones
11:47:08 <esowiki> [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79218&oldid=79209 * Int-e * (-10) not TC
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12:30:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RSG4908 * New user account
12:33:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79219&oldid=79203 * RSG4908 * (+295)
12:35:21 <esowiki> [[User:RSG4908]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79220 * RSG4908 * (+141) Created page with "Hello. I'm RSG4908. I currently do not have my own esolang yet, but I am currently at this hour, trying to come up with an esoteric language."
12:41:19 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the wiki is full of those. both ones with penis jokes https://esolangs.org/wiki/PenisScript https://esolangs.org/wiki/La_We%C3%A1 and stuff without control flow
12:41:19 <rain1> I might do last years aoc
12:41:23 <rain1> i keep hearing about the intcode
12:47:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skyespr * New user account
12:49:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79221&oldid=79219 * Skyespr * (+167) added Skyespr's introduction
12:51:40 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79222&oldid=77766 * Skyespr * (-190) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ removed MLA idea after making it
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12:53:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79223&oldid=79208 * Skyespr * (+12) added MLang
12:56:32 <esowiki> [[MLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79224 * Skyespr * (+9024) Created page, added readme from github because I didn't feel like typing the whole thing again
13:00:53 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79225&oldid=79224 * Skyespr * (+31) formatting
13:02:32 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79226&oldid=79225 * Skyespr * (+2)
13:04:34 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79227&oldid=79226 * Skyespr * (+47)
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13:22:24 <esowiki> [[UClang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79228 * RSG4908 * (+1411) Create UClang language page
13:24:16 <esowiki> [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79229&oldid=79228 * RSG4908 * (-74)
13:24:19 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79230&oldid=79227 * Skyespr * (+86) added output
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13:24:55 <b_jonas> day 6 of Aoc 2020 is easy enough too. but then, it could get more difficult any day.
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13:26:12 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79231&oldid=79230 * Skyespr * (+8) formatting
13:26:22 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79232&oldid=79089 * RSG4908 * (+13)
13:28:04 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79233&oldid=79229 * RSG4908 * (+10)
13:29:19 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79234&oldid=79231 * Skyespr * (-8)
13:31:43 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79235&oldid=79233 * RSG4908 * (+1)
13:32:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79236 * RSG4908 * (+130) Created page with "can we rename this page to UClang*? okthxbyte --~~~~"
13:33:32 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79237&oldid=79235 * RSG4908 * (+31)
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13:47:04 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79238&oldid=79237 * RSG4908 * (+25)
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13:50:15 <fizzie> I think I'm mostly unsatisfied by all the part twos being pretty much the same as the corresponding part ones so far.
13:52:42 <int-e> yeah
13:53:10 <int-e> though I foolishly did today's union by concatenating strings
13:53:30 <int-e> so the difference is a tiny bit larger than it could be
13:58:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think they're the same. they sound similat but are always a bit harder to atually solve.
13:59:39 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think that's foolish
14:00:44 <b_jonas> and I still wonder what happens if a traveler answers no to all questions.
14:03:18 <int-e> ...oh, they specified the set of all questions... that corner case didn't come up.
14:08:18 <rain1> th e problem today did not excite me
14:08:27 <fizzie> The way I did today, literally the only difference between parts 1 and 2 was the choice of a boolean operator and initial value. And on day 3, part 2 was just "run part 1 five times". And on day 2, part 2 was arguably easier.
14:10:08 <fizzie> I liked most those puzzles last year where part 1 was solvable by just implementing the spec given in the calendar in the most straightforward way, but in part 2 that was obviously computationally infeasible, so you had to come up with something else. Unless you had overengineered part 1 already, of course.
14:12:39 <fizzie> https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/16 and https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/22 being prime examples (though non-prime numbers) of that kind of thing, except of course you presumably can't see part 2 if you didn't do last year.
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14:15:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe you're better at guessing what the twist (second part) will be. I don't try to guess or make my first solution more complicated than it needs to be. today, I used one dictionary for the original, adding each letter, without bothering to do anything special between lines; for the twist I needed to use two dictionaries, the first collecting the letters of a line, the second intersecting the
14:15:11 <b_jonas> lines.
14:15:53 <Arcorann> I agree, there haven't been any really challenging part 2s so far this year (day 4 was just tedious) -- I think we're all waiting for the difficulty to pick up
14:16:37 <int-e> FWIW, I realized that I only started AoC in the 10th day last year... so maybe that's why this year feels trivial so far
14:16:44 <int-e> s/in/on/
14:17:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: day 3 was the closest, though I personally converted for a one-pass read-compute to a two-pass read then compute solution, that wasn't really necessary. the first day needed to change from one loop with a dictionary to a nested loop with a dictionary, so definitely more complicated.
14:17:22 <b_jonas> day 2 indeed also barely changed.
14:18:19 <int-e> day 5 had identical code (none) :P
14:19:31 <fizzie> int-e: Mmmaybe. 2019 had the Intcode thing going on pretty early on, which was interesting in a different way, but it's true that e.g. day 4 2019 was very similar to this year so far.
14:20:21 <fizzie> And https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/6 was pretty simple though I generally like the graph-y ones more.
14:20:51 <b_jonas> int-e: for day 5, I had one line of code for the original (to convert from binary to decimal), but like ten lines of code for the twist
14:21:40 <int-e> b_jonas: I just inspected the sorted list manually
14:22:13 <int-e> and I'm not sure I'd have been faster writing code... probably not
14:22:24 <fizzie> I was going to say, it's quite possible the shell oneliner "solution" would've been the one for the leaderboards.
14:22:26 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but then how do you get from a binary number to a decimal number that you enter in the field?
14:22:39 <b_jonas> int-e: inspecting the sorted list would work, sure
14:22:49 <int-e> dc <<<2i1010101101p
14:23:01 <b_jonas> I didn't do that because I wanted to know that there's only one number missing
14:23:12 <int-e> I didn't care
14:23:34 <b_jonas> I generally want to test and verify that the data is like what I expect. it doesn't matter for AoC, but for things I do at work it *does* help.
14:23:44 <b_jonas> because the data is very often not what it's supposed to be
14:23:45 <int-e> I picked the first gap in the list and submitted
14:23:53 <b_jonas> yes, I guess that makes sense for AoC
14:24:42 <int-e> in retrospect I should've converted to decimal, sorted, and then looked for the gap... might have saved half a minute because scanning decimals is easier
14:25:02 <int-e> (for no better reason than familiarity)
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14:25:33 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it might be easier to find the gap in the last column of binary than in decimal
14:25:41 <b_jonas> since it's just two digits alternating
14:27:21 <int-e> Today somebody did both parts in 1m27s... I wonder what kind of automation they have
14:27:27 <int-e> and what sort of templates
14:28:11 <b_jonas> I didn't sort for the original btw, because the letters don't sort naturally. F=0 B=1 sorts backwards, L=0 R=1 sorts forwards. I just grepped for ^BBB and a few more greps later I found the last one.
14:28:30 <b_jonas> a sort could work if you tr first.
14:28:46 <fizzie> I imagine something like a Python repl with a few utilities like "read blank-line-separated paragraphs" would make a competitive AoC environment, at least for the simple ones.
14:29:00 <b_jonas> int-e: I guess you could at least automatically download the input from the webpage
14:29:22 <b_jonas> plus you could do way less verification than I do and submit the first attempt at an answer without checking
14:29:50 <b_jonas> but that only helps for a speed competition, which I don't care much about, for the real world work guessing wouldn't work well
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14:39:22 <b_jonas> by the way, in task 4 twist, several people have passports where the issue year or expiry year or both are many years before their birth year, but all those passports are denied in the twist for other reasons
14:39:45 <b_jonas> but nobody brought a passport that expired before it was issued
14:40:40 <b_jonas> this mostly happens in passports with the birth year in the future, but there's one with byr:1983 iyr:1958 eyr:1979
14:41:21 <b_jonas> the people who bring that sort of fake document should probably get arrested and questioned, not merely denied their entry to the airplane
14:45:29 <b_jonas> many people also have nonexistant country codes, but the spec explicitly says to ignore that, so that's fine
14:45:48 <b_jonas> in fact actual country codes seem to be rare
14:59:17 <int-e> fizzie: you're definitely right though that Intcode made last year's AoC more likely to appeal to esolangers. And we did discuss the power of Intcode quite a bit back then.
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15:16:45 <b_jonas> `random-pizza
15:16:47 <HackEso> random-pizza? No such file or directory
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15:27:22 <b_jonas> fungot, does Horn Drill bypass normal damage calculation rules?
15:27:22 <fungot> b_jonas: ' i still don't like it," said ridcully. he scratched his chin with his free hand into a grinder? this place deserves vorbis! sheep deserve to be caught.
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15:47:20 <fizzie> int-e: b_jonas: Just to put some numbers on this, here's the median time in seconds to get one/two stars for the top 100s: http://ix.io/2GRX
15:47:23 <fizzie> The big numbers on 2020 day 1 are I think a problem when releasing the puzzle (that's why it awarded no points), and I think there's been some of those in the past too.
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16:08:33 <esowiki> [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79239&oldid=79238 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) wikilink, cat, /
16:09:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79240&oldid=79236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+258) reply
16:15:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow, that's a big table
16:15:28 <b_jonas> nice
16:23:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79241&oldid=79182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-219) Minification
16:23:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79242&oldid=79241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+134) /* weivrevo egaugnaL */ min
16:24:13 <esowiki> [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79243&oldid=79239 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */ tb
16:25:52 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79244&oldid=79126 * Aspwil * (+853) /* Code examples */
16:26:05 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79245&oldid=79244 * Aspwil * (-1) /* Add 2 numbers */
16:30:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aspwil * uploaded "[[File:NDBALL.jpg]]"
16:30:10 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79247&oldid=79245 * Aspwil * (+130) /* Add 2 numbers */
16:30:38 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79248&oldid=79247 * Aspwil * (+1) /* Add 2 numbers */
16:32:50 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79249&oldid=79218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) headers, cat, 69, not TC
16:33:21 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79250&oldid=79234 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* design parameters: */ list
16:34:06 <fizzie> Along those lines, here's also the twistiness rating for each day: http://ix.io/2GSu
16:34:12 <fizzie> Defined as the ratio between total think-time spent by the first 100 people to get two stars vs. to get one star.
16:34:18 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79251&oldid=79108 * Mantita223 * (+136) /* Syntax */
16:34:36 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79252&oldid=79250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Hello world */ code
16:34:49 <fizzie> So I guess it's not really that different from previous years, and in fact day 4 of 2020 was above-average twisty.
16:34:49 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79253&oldid=79251 * Mantita223 * (+12) /* Hello World */
16:35:09 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79254&oldid=79252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) Undo revision 79252 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) (was this literal?)
16:35:33 <fizzie> What was day 4 again? Oh, right, the passport verification, with the strict rules for part 2. Makes sense, I guess.
16:36:03 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79255&oldid=79254 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) /* output */ CATS
16:38:12 <fizzie> The numbers also suggest year 2019 was unusually twisty (median twistiness of 2.14, compared to 1.23, 1.53, 1.70 and 1.81 for 2015-2018 and 1.76 for 2020 so far), which might be why my expectations are amiss.
16:38:59 <fizzie> Can't argue with science. (Having some numbers equals science. (I learned that from some recent election lawsuits.))
16:41:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: nice
16:42:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: I wonder if we could guess from these numbers that day 7 will have the first harder task
16:44:17 <fizzie> That does look a little like a trend, from eyeballing the numbers. (Should've probably plotted these instead, because eyeballs are more compatible with pixels than numbers.)
16:45:26 <fizzie> Also, I didn't include today because I thought "I couldn't possibly, the day is still ongoing", but it's not like the leaderboard is going to change.
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16:50:45 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2GSF with day 6 included.
16:57:42 <int-e> fizzie: thanks
16:58:49 <int-e> so still in normal range, high variance.
16:59:23 <int-e> (the first couple of days in 2015 don't count, they mostly indicate a certain lack of popularity)
17:00:01 <int-e> shachaf: I finished Hiding Spot
17:00:41 <int-e> shachaf: 609 is one of the hardest puzzles in all the game, though there are one or two more of comparable difficulty, to me.
17:01:24 <int-e> shachaf: And there is one final puzzle after the 54 you can access at any time.
17:06:29 <int-e> (Oh ambiguity. There are 54 levels that you can access from the beginning. The final one unlocks when you've completed the other ones.)
17:06:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: is day 1 always on --12-01 of the year given?
17:10:41 <b_jonas> I find it a bit strange that there are 25 days, not 25, from --12-01 to --12-24 inclusive. is there an ISO standard advent calendar or something?
17:12:02 <int-e> cultural difference
17:14:12 <int-e> Or maybe just a matter of taste... 'Many Advent calendars take the form of a large rectangular card with "windows",[5] one for each day of December leading up to and including Christmas Eve (December 24) or Christmas Day (December 25).'
17:14:38 <b_jonas> yes, probably
17:15:43 <int-e> Meanwhile, in Germany: "Nach 1945 setzte sich endgültig der Kalender beginnend vom 1. Dezember mit 24 Türchen durch."
17:16:02 <int-e> Always trust the Germans to standardize all the important things.
17:16:03 <myname> interesting
17:16:27 <myname> int-e: well, but more often than not, there are german and international rules for something
17:16:37 <b_jonas> yep
17:16:40 <myname> like jugger or quidditch
17:16:51 <b_jonas> or chess
17:16:58 <myname> there are german chess rules?
17:16:58 <int-e> myname: Yeah I wasn't sure whether US advent calendars were universally 25 days long.
17:18:07 <int-e> One point in favor is that they tend to celebrate the 25th. One point against is that 6x4 is an aesthetically more pleasing rectangle compared to a 5x5 square. I mean, in the interest of overthinking it.
17:18:30 <b_jonas> probably. chess had a lot of variant rules, some of their differences are just phrasing and bookkeeping, some were bugs that got patched away when a player first used them in a tournament (like the bug when you used to be able to promote a pawn to an opponent's piece), some are just stupid rules that aren't used in practice (like the dead game rules)
17:18:30 <myname> as a german, 24 is obviously the right way to go
17:19:00 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not 6x4 because the last day gets a larger door
17:19:01 <myname> why would i ever change my figure to an opponent one?
17:19:08 <int-e> b_jonas: not always
17:19:39 <b_jonas> myname: because in some very rare cases that lets you win an endgame
17:19:40 <int-e> myname: because then the opponent can't capture it
17:19:50 <myname> ah
17:19:55 <b_jonas> give a check with very few pieces remaining
17:20:08 <int-e> and there's less likelyhood of stalemate, right
17:20:15 <int-e> likelihood
17:20:24 <b_jonas> the internet probably has an example
17:20:28 <b_jonas> a historical one that is
17:20:38 <int-e> of those rule gaps, 0-0-0-0 is my favorite
17:20:50 <myname> what's that
17:22:27 <int-e> castling extra long. the rule phrasing it's based on stipulates that if the king hasn't moved and the rook hasn't moved, the king may castle by making two steps towards the rook while the rook moves to the crossed square... provided all intermediate squares are empty and the king is not in check before, after, or on the square it crossed.
17:22:28 <b_jonas> int-e: what's that?
17:22:28 <myname> oh, there was also castling forwards
17:22:30 <myname> :D
17:22:46 <int-e> so... you promote the king pawn to a rook... has the rook moved?
17:22:55 <myname> obviously not
17:23:00 <b_jonas> int-e: oh heck
17:23:28 <b_jonas> can that lead the king to a point that's not aligned to a square if the rook isn't lined up nicely?
17:23:39 <int-e> nah
17:23:42 <b_jonas> because it would be hard to check it then
17:23:56 <int-e> also I've made that text up, trying to capture the important points
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17:24:50 <int-e> It's been a while since I learned about this. IIRC this rule interpretation was cooked up for a chess problem; it never happened in an actual game.
17:26:26 <b_jonas> yeah, those rules are found more often by puzzle makers than by players
17:27:34 <b_jonas> some rulesets also have silly bugs where it says that once the game ends, you can't change the result if an illegal move is later discovered, so you can just quickly make an illegal move that gives a checkmate, and unless the opponent is fast enough to call an umpire during your move, you've won
17:27:40 <b_jonas> you can do that right as your first move
17:27:52 <int-e> Oh I think I need more zeros.
17:28:52 <int-e> 0-0-0-0-0-0-0 (if the number of zeros represents how many squares the rook moves, which is the case for 0-0 and 0-0-0)
17:28:57 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't like the zeros at all, they're remains from old forms of notation. just denote castling by the logical Kb1, Kf1, Kb8, or Kf8
17:29:28 <int-e> I... like them, mostly
17:29:46 <int-e> to the extent that I care at all, which isn't very much
17:29:48 <b_jonas> int-e: plus if it represents how many squares the rook moves, you may have to use 0 zeroes and -1 hyphens in Fischer random chess
17:30:26 <int-e> that would be fun.
17:31:15 <int-e> Anyway, I like that castling stands out in a game record.
17:31:29 <b_jonas> also the moves are Kc1, Kg1, Kc8, Kg8 because I'm stupid
17:32:25 <int-e> Right. Which I would've noticed if I was familiar with chess notation :P
17:32:48 <b_jonas> but yeah, the notation with the king also doesn't work in Fischer random chess, because it may be ambigious with a normal king move
17:32:51 <int-e> s/familiar/fluent/
17:33:21 <b_jonas> maybe you should write both? K0-0-0c1 or something
17:33:28 <int-e> ow
17:34:39 <b_jonas> or just K0c1 or something
17:34:59 <b_jonas> the 0 takes the place of an x that indicates capture
17:52:30 <zzo38> Why was castling notation written as "0-0" and "0-0-0" anyways?
17:57:45 <zzo38> Also, Advent starts on Sunday, so why do they call it that even though it does not start on Sunday?
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18:40:02 <kmc> "like the bug when you used to be able to promote a pawn to an opponent's piece" <-- lmao
18:40:12 <kmc> is there a situation where this is advantageous?
18:40:57 <kmc> oh, I see there is some discussion of this
18:42:57 <kmc> 0-0-0 ought to be a type of steam engine
18:43:00 <kmc> but probably not a very useful one
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18:50:24 <fizzie> Finnish advent calendars definitely have 24 doors.
18:50:35 <fizzie> But we do the presents thing on the 24th as well.
18:51:25 <fizzie> The last day tends to get double doors.
18:52:08 <fizzie> And often it's not a regular pattern, since part of the fun is trying to find the next number, and that gets trickier when they're not in a grid but instead hidden away in natural edges of the picture.
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19:16:42 <esowiki> [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79256&oldid=78715 * Tetrapyronia * (-8)
19:21:52 <kmc> that's cute
19:22:04 <kmc> you do regular xmas presents on the 24th? or something else?
19:23:53 <zzo38> Yes there are situations where it is an advantage to promote to opponent's piece, such as to prevent another opponent's piece from occupying it, and possibly also to avoid stalemate in some situations. I think some even older versions of the rules said that promotion is optional, and did not say that you are not allowed to promote to a king.
19:24:53 <kmc> i was wondering about that too
19:25:08 <kmc> having multiple kings seems disadvantageous
19:25:21 <kmc> because you'd be obliged to respond if either is in check, and you'd lose if either is in checkmate?
19:25:24 <kmc> but maybe that's not how it works
19:25:46 <kmc> maybe these things would only apply to your last king
19:27:53 <zzo38> Apparently once (I don't know if it is true) someone who did not know that promotion to king is disallowed did so, and opponent's next move was to checkmate both kings simultaneously.
19:32:44 <kmc> lol
19:57:30 <fizzie> Regular presents, yes. Whatever that means.
19:58:33 <kmc> in my family we did regular christmas presents on the morning of the 25th, as is typical in the US, but each kid also got a book for a present on the evening of the 24th
19:58:45 <kmc> which I think was just a tradition of our family and not a particularly common thing
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19:59:15 <fizzie> That all reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIj8NphrAFI
20:01:22 <b_jonas> "0-0-0 ought to be a type of steam engine" or a football strategy when all players except one got the red card
20:01:44 <b_jonas> also not a very useful one
20:02:06 <kmc> we also did trick-or-treating on October 30th, not 31st
20:02:16 <kmc> "Beggar's Night"
20:02:20 <kmc> that's a thing in certain parts of the Midwest
20:03:07 <fizzie> We do trick-or-treating on Palm Sunday around Easter, curiously enough.
20:03:12 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virvonta
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20:05:17 <fizzie> (Maybe not exactly the same, but closest we used to have, really. Although maybe these days they do a more Halloweeny thing too.)
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22:01:48 <fizzie> Mostly as an excuse to use Altair outside the context of Google Colab: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/
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2020-12-07
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00:43:31 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently Erich Friedman's periodic table of mathematicians https://erich-friedman.github.io/periodic/ suffered some link rot between its state in 2011 "http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/periodictable/ and when it got moved to github in 2020-08
00:43:35 <b_jonas> https://github.com/erich-friedman/erich-friedman.github.io/commit/b317aa1ecbf9cf43ad8dee9c1a4c81db29ecfb2d#diff-a8f9b083bb67e1d94f586b59296004debb997e79367a4d182d31487f157c543d
00:44:11 <b_jonas> in the sense that some of the HTML pages have been renamed, and the old name points to a different bibliography now
00:44:39 <b_jonas> so it's not easy to find a bibliography even if you know the old url and the name of the mathematicians whose bibliography it is
00:47:11 <b_jonas> (also he has .DS_Store committed to the github -- apparently this file is the equivalent of windows's desktop.ini , the file in which file explorer stores folder-specific settings)
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01:54:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * RSG4908 * moved [[UClang]] to [[UClang*]]: Add star to make sure someone doesn't confuse it with https://github.com/izuzanak/uclang
01:54:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * RSG4908 * moved [[Talk:UClang]] to [[Talk:UClang*]]: Add star to make sure someone doesn't confuse it with https://github.com/izuzanak/uclang
02:02:03 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79261&oldid=79257 * RSG4908 * (+7) Add table of contents
02:06:56 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79262&oldid=79003 * RSG4908 * (+132) Add UClang* example
02:29:53 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79263&oldid=79261 * RSG4908 * (+157)
02:30:13 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79264&oldid=79263 * RSG4908 * (+0) /* Instructions */
02:39:05 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79265&oldid=79264 * RSG4908 * (+76)
02:39:32 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79266&oldid=79265 * RSG4908 * (+1) /* Implementations */
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05:22:24 <int-e> fizzie: ah, the graph based one is back
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06:45:46 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79267 * Tetrapyronia * (+1649) a new language i guess
06:47:00 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79268&oldid=79138 * Tetrapyronia * (+65) Added Sadako
06:48:02 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79269&oldid=79268 * Tetrapyronia * (+1) Fixed alphabetization
06:48:35 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79270&oldid=79199 * Tetrapyronia * (+26)
06:49:03 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79271&oldid=79267 * Tetrapyronia * (+2)
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06:56:22 <int-e> Hmm, Sadako... cute concept, but sadly, there's no way to refer to new points.
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07:04:38 <shachaf> int-e: Back to Hiding Spot.
07:04:57 <shachaf> I was hoping I'd get back to 609 and just immediately figure it out in a few minutes, but no, it's still tricky.
07:05:04 <int-e> shachaf: beware of the monsters
07:05:27 <shachaf> Uh oh.
07:06:13 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-230533_3840x2160.png -- not the solution. :-(
07:06:45 <int-e> that looks cute
07:07:21 <shachaf> It also triggers a bug (?) when you stand up. The chairs rises with you, so it's floating.
07:07:53 <int-e> Hmm I didn't encounter any bugs here...
07:08:31 <int-e> but I don't think that I've even tested that particular case
07:08:33 <shachaf> I mean, not a game-breaking bug.
07:08:47 <shachaf> I also had a bug several times where you get embedded into furniture.
07:08:54 <int-e> (sitting below an upright table)
07:09:05 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-11-30-012225_3840x2160.png
07:09:25 <int-e> what
07:09:48 <shachaf> You never ran into that?
07:10:02 <shachaf> It happened at least three times to me with various furniture in various places.
07:10:25 <int-e> I never ran into anything like it.
07:10:40 <int-e> We may be playing different versions of the game though; I downloaded it from itch.io
07:11:08 <shachaf> I'm using the Steam version.
07:11:24 <shachaf> v1.0.8
07:11:25 <int-e> I was also running it under Windows, but it's hard to imagine that wine would make it fail in this way.
07:11:43 <int-e> v1.0.6 here, fun.
07:11:54 <int-e> So maybe a new bug :P
07:12:00 <shachaf> I guess that's two extra bugs.
07:12:55 <int-e> well the other one might still be there
07:13:04 <int-e> or s/still/already/
07:14:58 <shachaf> I thought that 8 was the bug count.
07:15:13 <int-e> oh
07:19:04 <shachaf> Anyway if you were never even standing under a table like, then presumably I'm not on the right track at all.
07:19:39 <shachaf> I guess as long as I'm getting into situations I haven't been in before, at least I'm making some sort of forward progress.
07:19:48 <shachaf> I managed to stack a table on top of another table.
07:24:05 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/609a.png ... looks fine
07:24:46 <shachaf> If you crouch and stand back up, it doesn't float?
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07:25:09 <int-e> shachaf: yep, tried that
07:27:24 <int-e> and I've definitely crouched inder a table and stood up, lifting it, so the second screenshot looks terrible
07:27:46 <shachaf> Yes, that doesn't happen reproducibly.
07:27:53 <shachaf> Or, I mean, I haven't figured out what causes it.
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07:28:09 <shachaf> And I *think* when I pressed undo and took the same action it didn't happen a second time, though I'm not confident.
07:29:07 <int-e> hmm, there doesn't seem to be a changelog :-/
07:29:25 <int-e> (well, I haven't found any)
07:30:28 <shachaf> It's probably a subtle difference in the implementation of the Win32 API that WINE gets wrong.
07:31:06 <int-e> but... shouldn't this part be purely handled by game logic without Win32 API interference...
07:31:47 <int-e> that's the part that irritates me
07:32:05 <shachaf> I mean, I was saying a clearly false thing there.
07:32:27 <shachaf> I don't even know if it's using WINE. Linux is listed as an official platform in Steam.
07:33:14 <shachaf> https://coreymartin.itch.io/hiding-spot-ld-jam-version says it's implemented with Unity. I don't know whether the full game is.
07:33:43 <int-e> oh.
07:34:07 <int-e> it could be something mundane then, like C/C++ code that relies on undefined behavior in one place.
07:34:37 <shachaf> Just now: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-233408_3840x2160.png
07:34:46 <int-e> I wonder why there isn't a Linux version on itch.io then.
07:35:12 <int-e> shachaf: after pulling it in from the right?
07:35:23 <shachaf> I *think* the last key I pressed was right.
07:35:25 <shachaf> But I'm not sure.
07:35:30 <shachaf> No, I guess I am sure.
07:35:32 <int-e> shift-left?
07:35:35 <shachaf> Because undo brought me to the corner.
07:35:43 <int-e> right? you walked into the box?
07:35:46 <shachaf> Yes.
07:35:48 <int-e> wow
07:36:06 <int-e> I've definitely not experienced any glitches like that.
07:36:41 <shachaf> I'm vaguely remembering that's how the table screenshot from above happened too, actually, just walking into it.
07:36:49 <int-e> and it would be rather annoying... and game-breaking because it'll allow weird solutions to puzzles
07:37:24 <shachaf> Well, game-breaking in that it allows you to cheat.
07:37:40 <int-e> sure, you can call it a cheat
07:37:44 <shachaf> Which I don't mind in general. But it's certainly a bug.
07:37:52 <Hooloovo0> wait are those lack racks?
07:39:05 <shachaf> This is the floating I was talking about, by the way: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-233839_3840x2160.png
07:39:25 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, so I pictured it correctly.
07:39:34 <int-e> shachaf: Man that must be annoying to play.
07:39:48 <shachaf> I don't think this breaks any solutions, though.
07:40:07 <int-e> yeah the floating table is *probably* harmless.
07:40:22 <int-e> But walking through boxes without pushing them isn't, of course.
07:40:56 <shachaf> Yes, but it only happens rarely.
07:41:01 <int-e> Well, harmless for solutions. It messes with building an internal model for the puzzle mechanics.
07:41:20 <shachaf> So it doesn't excuse me not solving this puzzle by now.
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07:41:32 <shachaf> I think I have the correct model for how everything behaves at this point.
07:41:56 <int-e> I think what makes 609 hard is that basically every floor square could be a hiding spot
07:42:12 <int-e> so the usual approach of figuring out where to go and then working towards that goal doesn't work
07:42:56 <int-e> And, of course, the tables are kind of hard to visualize properly.
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07:52:39 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, turntables, or turning tables... there must be a GOOD pun in this.
07:53:20 <shachaf> int-e is making puns now?
07:53:22 <shachaf> The tables have turned.
07:53:25 <int-e> I guess technically it's more tipping and pushing tables.
07:53:28 <int-e> Shocking, I know.
07:54:08 <int-e> `? pun
07:54:12 <HackEso> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
07:54:33 <int-e> Oh an inside joke.
07:55:39 <shachaf> Oh, it's set up not to hilight me. Very considerate.
07:56:17 <shachaf> OK, I just walked through furniture again.
07:56:30 <shachaf> This time it was a table that was on its side, so I could have gotten to that state anyway.
08:02:19 <shachaf> 708 is making me question my model, on the other hand, hmm.
08:07:24 <int-e> no clue which one that is
08:10:32 <shachaf> Golly.
08:10:35 <shachaf> Are there monsters?
08:10:44 <shachaf> I don't want to be spookled.
08:11:42 <int-e> shachaf: don't worry, the monsters are just in your head
08:12:26 <int-e> (How is that supposed to be reassuring? :-P)
08:14:29 <int-e> `grWp mock
08:14:30 <HackEso> identity function:The identity function is a mockingbird. \ mockingbird:mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably. \ patent:Patent is an adjective which means that something is painfully obvious. Often used to rightfully mock people that do not see it.
09:13:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 0xFF * New user account
09:22:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79272&oldid=79221 * 0xFF * (+479) /* Introductions */
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09:24:28 <esowiki> [[User:0xFF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79273 * 0xFF * (+477) Created page with "uw:1,1;wm:1;am:2;am:4;at;uw:1,0;uw:2:0;uw:4,0;uw:1,1;uw:2,1;uw:5,1;uw:7,1;at;uw:1,0;uw:2,0;uw:5,0;uw:7,0;uw:1,1;uw:2,1;uw:4,1;uw:5,1;at;at;uw:6,1;uw:7,1;at;uw:0,0;uw:1,0;uw:2,..."
09:33:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79274&oldid=79242 * 0xFF * (-28346)
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10:33:07 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79275&oldid=79255 * Skyespr * (+4)
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10:49:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79276&oldid=79272 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+335) /* Introductions */
10:53:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79277&oldid=79276 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+137) /* Introductions */ forgot signature
10:57:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Braincopter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79278 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+116) /* About pixel extraction (65536 * R + 256 * G + B) */ new section
11:11:56 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79279&oldid=79266 * RSG4908 * (+124)
11:29:32 <b_jonas> hey guys, how old is progressive JPEG? en.Wikipedia only says "When progressive JPEGs are received by programs that do not support them (such as versions of Internet Explorer before Windows 7)[47] the software displays the image only after it has been completely downloaded." but I know the grandmaphone that I first bought a few years ago for my grandma doesn't display them at all.
11:31:01 <b_jonas> It's just that I was wondering about image formats, and how JPEG is really old, and how after the failure of jpeg2000, and how we really need a new one, and how google's webp might finally be able to break the deadlock,
11:31:40 <b_jonas> and then I realized that "JPEG is so old" is not entirely fair when I really rely on progressive JPEGs and how they can compress much better than baseline JPEGs because they can use different Huffman tables for different progressive steps.
11:32:27 <b_jonas> I don't really use them for being "progressive" in the sense that you can decode them in lower quality from a prefix of the file, but I am using them for better compression.
11:33:09 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently progressive encoding is supposed to be part of "baseline jpeg". then I don't know why that phone doesn't support it
11:33:21 <b_jonas> There was also an issue with embedding such jpegs into pdf I think
11:33:28 <b_jonas> so the grandmaphone is not the only broken case
11:35:15 <b_jonas> apparently I can't find out if it's specified in the original 1992 JPEG spec, because it's an ISO standard and "https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-T.81" says "This text was produced through a joint activity with ISO and IEC. According to the agreement with our partners, this document is only available through payment."
11:35:25 <b_jonas> wow, standards that you have to pay for are so useful
11:38:31 <b_jonas> mind you, the standard isn't even really necessary, in the sense of https://xkcd.com/971/ , because you can do all the same things without a standard (sell something for much more money by stating it conforms to standars without the customer being able to verify that easily) by just referring to "current industry best practice" or the euphemism "current industry standard" which means the same.
11:39:39 <b_jonas> btw apparently each AoC day has an alliterating name
11:42:33 <b_jonas> wait wait, are banks actually allowed to advertise loans as targeted to businesses in trouble, as opposed to targeted to individuals in trouble or businesses trying to grow?
11:43:47 <b_jonas> or are they not allowed but doing it anyway when the current government happens to be on their side of politics?
11:54:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79280&oldid=64263 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+221) /* Language origin */ new section
12:06:22 <b_jonas> it doesn't looks like webp took hold yet
12:10:07 <b_jonas> Wikimedia Commons has 160 TB of jpeg, 69 TB of tiff (wow), 4 TB of png, but less than a gigabyte of webp. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaStatistics
12:17:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brain:D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79281 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+500) /* Token identification */ new section
12:19:51 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah. Was surprised at how rudimentary the graph utilities my Go solutions from last year had. I guess the problems were just never quite exactly the same, and Go isn't such a great language for abstraction, so didn't end up with general DFS/BFS/shortest-path utilities.
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12:20:53 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html suggests day 7 *was* a bump up in difficulty, but not as much of a one than in previous years. Or else the contest has just gotten more popular and/or the people on the leaderboards have improved their tools.
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12:22:07 <int-e> fizzie: and I used KISS and just used a iteration until a fixed point is reached
12:22:25 <b_jonas> no! darn it, don't spoil it yet
12:22:32 <b_jonas> I haven't solved day 7 yet
12:22:36 <b_jonas> I won't read
12:22:45 <int-e> fungot: spam?
12:22:45 <fungot> int-e: the breath of god. ' it all begins to make sense of the presence, for some strange reason and in any case.
12:22:54 <fizzie> ^style europarl
12:22:54 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:23:00 <fizzie> fungot: Some proper long-form spam?
12:23:00 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i will use this important time to help end the spiral of violence which algeria is experiencing political crisis, as you describe it, i quite understand that the criteria for adjusting to the market throughout the union.
12:23:06 <fizzie> Shorter than I expected.
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12:29:06 <int-e> fungot: lovely spam!
12:29:07 <fungot> int-e: mr president, we would all love to see: a shorter working week, correctly carried out, and the proposed limit value of 0.1 ppm would be too many control centres is nonsense. last year 390 000 people applied for asylum in a member state and we have to acknowledge that undoubtedly we will also continue to be permitted for several years now. i would also like to emphasise once again how much the european union
12:29:13 <int-e> that's more like it
12:29:40 <int-e> https://github.com/oskarsve/ms-teams-rce ... sigh ... Electron, what a grand idea.
12:33:20 <fizzie> We would all love to see a shorter working week, but 0.1 ppm is just too short.
12:33:57 <fizzie> I take it that means you work for... about 60 milliseconds a week.
12:39:47 <int-e> that'll raise a lot of complaints about the daily commute
12:40:32 <int-e> > 86400*7
12:40:34 <lambdabot> 604800
12:40:48 <int-e> that number doesn't look familiar at all :)
12:41:31 <Taneb> > 86400 * 14
12:41:34 <lambdabot> 1209600
12:45:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Shorten your Brainfuck code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79282 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+168) Created page with "What the brainf*er are those. --~~~~"
12:46:28 <int-e> hmm... driving at 1 nanoparsec per fortnight
12:47:06 <int-e> `` units 'nanoparsec per fortnight' 'mph'
12:47:08 <HackEso> ​* 57.064023 \ / 0.017524176
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12:50:15 <int-e> I also have a hard time spelling "fortnight" correctly.
12:50:53 <int-e> Because of that stupid video game (that I've never played but watched a bit on youtube.)
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13:32:06 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79285&oldid=79284 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* External Links */ h
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13:54:40 <b_jonas> oh jesus. yesterday we mentioned the bugs in former specifications in chess. and now I'm reading back a forum discussion about how in D&D 3.5 the rules don't seem to clearly claim that an object animated with the "Animate object" spell is a creature, even though the rules are seemingly written as if they wanted to make it a creature.
13:55:26 <b_jonas> but then it turns out that there is a rule that claims that, we just didn't find it at first
13:55:52 <b_jonas> that was a bit silly
13:59:45 <b_jonas> and then that other potential bug that an epic sorcerer can research epic spells that are very much underpowered so they're never worth to actually cast, but that have a negative XP cost to research, so they can just research it without ever casting them and gain unlimited XP for free. (the hard part is of course becoming an epic spellcaster in first place, for which you need 21 XLs and 19 Cha.)
14:00:53 <b_jonas> and then you can spend that XP to research and cast overpowered epic spells of course.
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14:35:47 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79286&oldid=79271 * Tetrapyronia * (+9)
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14:57:36 <bilal> ear
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15:06:09 <int-e> hmm
15:23:13 <arseniiv_> eye!
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15:25:40 <arseniiv> (what else is usually there in twos, chopsticks?)
15:28:22 <b_jonas> "that'll raise a lot of complaints about the daily commute" => what, do you mean like all the color-coded bags that you have to buy?
15:28:34 <Taneb> arseniiv: hands
15:29:52 <arseniiv> Taneb: hm indeed
15:30:04 <int-e> arseniiv: twins
15:30:22 <arseniiv> int-e: are they chiral though?
15:30:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: cherries, shoes
15:30:43 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think that depends on the twins
15:30:44 <arseniiv> I thought cherries may be in threes or ones?..
15:31:39 <b_jonas> they may be, they're only *usually* in twos
15:32:06 <Taneb> Bongos
15:32:59 <arseniiv> now I wonder if there is some name for all non-thumb digits as a whole
15:33:10 <arseniiv> they they will be in a pair with a thumb
15:33:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: some call it "fingers"
15:33:17 <int-e> arseniiv: I want to say dancers, but that requires two twos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutu_(clothing)
15:33:38 <b_jonas> but I just suggest "second to fifth digits inclusive"
15:34:19 <b_jonas> well, it depends on whether you count your first toe as a thumb
15:34:33 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I mean, not each of them by itself, but all at once. This even has a crumb of merit to go with mittens
15:34:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: dunno then
15:35:01 <int-e> `grWp tutu
15:35:06 <arseniiv> hm cat : kitten = mat : mitten?..
15:35:07 <HackEso> No output.
15:35:41 <arseniiv> int-e: lol :D
15:37:38 <b_jonas> `? lirpa
15:37:40 <HackEso> lirpa? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:39:53 <arseniiv> `? numpy
15:39:54 <HackEso> numpy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:46:43 <b_jonas> `? hem
15:46:44 <HackEso> hem? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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16:55:28 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79287&oldid=44808 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+2) /* Language overview */
17:41:10 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79288&oldid=79286 * Tetrapyronia * (+56) Added command
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18:51:35 <esowiki> [[File talk:PureFolders HelloWorld.png]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79289 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+228) /* Column parent matching */ new section
18:53:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think it's more like bat : bitten
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19:28:57 <fizzie> I wrote that on my input line, but then decided it didn't make enough sense to press enter.
19:30:28 <b_jonas> stupid notebook and Windows, there's a power button, please don't wake up from sleep on a keypress
19:33:16 <b_jonas> I solved https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/7 rather slowly because I put at least two stupid bugs in my code and had to debug them, but at least I had a reasonable idea about what the twist would be and so wrote the code in a way that would support that
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19:37:13 <fizzie> I was sort of sure that at least the numbers would be important eventually.
19:38:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the numerals, which were unused in the first part, gave it away
19:43:54 <b_jonas> or maybe it's animals like rat : written
19:44:46 <fizzie> Continuing my "if it's got graphs in it, convert it to dot" thing I was already doing last year, I've rendered the two examples as https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-ex1.png and https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-ex2.png with the colors denoting shiny gold ancestors/descendants.
19:45:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: heh
19:45:45 <fizzie> Unfortunately GraphViz just can't really cope with the 594-node actual puzzle input in any meaningful fashion: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-small.png
19:46:14 <fizzie> Tried a few of the other layout engines as well, but it really wasn't any better.
19:53:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: does it become nicer if you put shorter labels into the nodes instead of the full color name? "mirrored chartreuse" is so long. admittedly there are short ones like "dim red"
19:56:51 <b_jonas> apparently they're using all combinations of 18*38 color names, the 18 prefixes go like "dim, dark, rdab, dull, ..., dotted, striped, vibrant, mirrored" with mostly 4 and 5 letters, the suffixes like "red, tan, aqua, blue, ..., fuchsia, magenta, lavender, turquoise, chartreuse" with mostly 4 and 5 and 6 long names
19:57:33 <fizzie> It's a little bit better, but not really that much. The non-resized image went from 32242x3003 pixels to 25557x3003 when I used consecutive integers from 0 as the names.
19:58:02 <b_jonas> I see
20:00:38 <fizzie> My input has 18 prefixes as well, but only 33 color names.
20:01:59 <fizzie> I'm also not 100% on what exactly the color "clear tomato" looks like.
20:03:55 <b_jonas> yeah, 33, not 38
20:06:18 <b_jonas> probably looks like diluated tomato juice
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20:59:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Braincopter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79290&oldid=79278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) unsigned
21:02:50 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79291&oldid=67996 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Implementations */ cls
21:03:09 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79292&oldid=79291 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) unpipe
21:06:01 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79293&oldid=65351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Unimplemented & Uncomputable
21:08:04 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79294&oldid=79288 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+118) /* Example program: Truth Machine */ cats
21:10:10 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79295&oldid=79232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* General languages */ fix link
21:11:36 <esowiki> [[Vague]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79296&oldid=59900 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) chates
21:11:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jemhunter * New user account
21:12:12 <esowiki> [[Spice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79297&oldid=79162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ tac
21:13:04 <esowiki> [[LINR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79298&oldid=51977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ cat
21:13:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79299&oldid=79223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* S */ [[Sadako]]
21:17:32 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79300&oldid=79215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Language overview */ This likely is language
21:17:51 <esowiki> [[Sally]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79301&oldid=19305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) cat
21:18:44 <esowiki> [[Sally]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79302&oldid=79301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) The Languages.md file says 2000 ;;; cats
21:20:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79303&oldid=79274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28380) Undo revision 79274 by [[Special:Contributions/0xFF|0xFF]] ([[User talk:0xFF|talk]]) (not a chance)
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23:13:56 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Random JavaScript snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79304&oldid=78602 * Hakerh400 * (-470) Quizzes will be moved to a new article
23:23:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79305 * Hakerh400 * (+777) Move snippets to a new article
23:23:28 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79306&oldid=79093 * Hakerh400 * (+53) /* Misc */
23:26:39 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79307&oldid=79305 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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23:35:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79308&oldid=79307 * Hakerh400 * (+166)
2020-12-08
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00:50:41 <esowiki> [[1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79309&oldid=73305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Implementations */ list,cat
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01:28:58 <b_jonas> `? pushmi-pullyu
01:29:00 <HackEso> pushmi-pullyu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:29:07 <b_jonas> `? deque
01:29:09 <HackEso> deque? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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02:52:10 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79310&oldid=79294 * Tetrapyronia * (-6)
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04:56:13 <int-e> shachaf: so many islands... 509 now, still missing a few dozen I think
04:56:42 <shachaf> That's a lotta islands.
04:59:28 <int-e> and they're getting harder to reach too
04:59:52 <int-e> and there's still a couple of mechanical surprises
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05:08:04 <LegionMammal978> This AoC was pretty fun (somehow, I managed to get #14 on the first leaderboard)
05:09:59 <LegionMammal978> Writing interpreters for BF-like languages (i.e., one character per instruction + simple memory model) was definitely good practice
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05:47:22 <int-e> So what shall we call the new virtual machine... HGC for Handheld Game Controller?
05:48:03 <int-e> . o O ( It should have a 720x348 monochrome display. )
05:53:33 <shachaf> I would say that this AoC is quite well-ordered so far. It definitely has a basis.
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06:06:54 <int-e> shachaf: I was looking for a particular island I was playing around on yesterday. I didn't find it :-/
06:07:29 <int-e> (though I got sidetracked a bit because I found other ideas while looking)
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08:36:44 <int-e> `grWp economics
08:36:46 <HackEso> economics:Economics is just applied numerology.
08:37:30 <int-e> `learn Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology.
08:37:33 <HackEso> Learned 'economic': Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology.
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08:54:48 <zzo38> Is there a term in Magic: the Gathering that can refer to both players and objects, in general? They have some things in common, such as counters, possibility to be damaged (although only some objects can be damaged), possibility to be a target, and possibility for permanents to be attached to it.
09:02:46 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+1163) Created page with "'''Firstreplace''' is an accidental<sup>1</sup> [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:Abyxlrz|Abyxlrz]]. (1) It is accidental because i was trying to make a interp..."
09:04:12 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79312&oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+82)
09:04:28 <shachaf> Huh, they changed the phrasing.
09:04:57 <shachaf> E.g. Shock used to say "target creature or player", and now it says "to any target".
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09:06:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79313&oldid=79299 * Abyxlrz * (+19)
09:07:26 <int-e> shachaf: '115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, or planeswalkers. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can’t be chosen.'
09:07:56 <int-e> So the change allows planeswalkers to be targeted as well.
09:08:08 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure planeswalkers could already be targeted.
09:08:22 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe not.
09:08:26 <int-e> If you say "creature or player" then planeswalkers are excluded.
09:08:32 <shachaf> Maybe you targeted the player and redirected the damage or something?
09:08:38 <shachaf> There was definitely a way to damage planeswalkers.
09:09:01 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79314&oldid=78053 * Abyxlrz * (+17)
09:09:10 <shachaf> Yes: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/03/goodbye-planeswalker-redirection-rule-mtg-dominaria/
09:09:15 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79315&oldid=79314 * Abyxlrz * (+4)
09:09:32 <shachaf> "The Planeswalker redirection rule was implemented in Lorwyn with the introduction of the first Planeswalker cards. The rule states that you cannot directly target a Planeswalker with damage dealing spells—instead, you must target a player and then redirect the damage from that player to a Planeswalker they control."
09:10:02 <int-e> Ow, that sounds awkware.
09:10:13 <shachaf> It meant you could decide at resolution time instead of targeting time.
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09:10:24 <int-e> "awkware" is an akward spelling of "awkward".
09:10:37 <shachaf> And also that the spell wouldn't fizzle if the planeswalker was gone at resolution time, I suppose.
09:10:41 <int-e> yeah apparently they got rid of that
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09:11:04 <shachaf> So it is a functional change, maybe slightly for the worse, but surely better for the game overall.
09:11:12 <shachaf> I heard they even deprecated regenerate!
09:11:50 <shachaf> Maybe one day you'll be able to play Standard and not have to know a zillion obscure rules to play correctly.
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09:23:13 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79316&oldid=79312 * Abyxlrz * (+39)
09:40:29 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79317&oldid=79316 * Abyxlrz * (+93)
09:42:28 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79318&oldid=79317 * Abyxlrz * (+42)
10:07:40 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79319&oldid=79318 * Abyxlrz * (+35)
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10:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79320&oldid=74940 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+205) /* Input\Output format */ new section
10:38:30 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79321 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1342) Created page with "'''Dotter''' is a stack-based esoteric language created by me in 2020. ==Commands== * <code>..............[ascii]</code>: pushes ascii as a character to the end of the stack...."
10:39:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79322&oldid=79313 * Sertdfyguhi * (+13)
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11:24:43 <fizzie> Does it mean something that there's a gap between 8 and 9 on the calendar page? I don't think that was there before.
11:25:21 <fizzie> It might just mean that the pretty picture just didn't fit well to 25 lines, I guess.
11:30:07 <fizzie> But it *could* mean there's going to be 3 somehow distinct stages (3*8 = 24), plus a special 25th day thing as usual.
11:33:29 <fizzie> Also, first instance of panic for my solutions this year. Last year had a bunch: http://ix.io/2H8M (theoretically contains a really minor spoiler about what the task of part 2 will be, in case you haven't done it yet)
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12:19:17 <int-e> fizzie: maybe we're speeding up as things go downhill
12:25:49 <fizzie> Also did another GraphViz graph for today's example, can't help myself: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png (again, one aspect of that could be considered a bit spoilery for what part 2's question is)
12:42:53 <Arcorann_> downhill -> south
12:54:10 <int-e> Arcorann_: we don't know where that island is yet
12:55:00 <int-e> oh
12:55:31 <int-e> I think I see what you mean. My bad
12:55:43 <int-e> I saw a hill, never considered that the blue would be water.
12:56:22 <int-e> I agree. South it is, then.
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12:58:13 <int-e> Unfortunately that deprives me of the reason why we would speed up.
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13:21:43 <Arcorann_> I guess it'd be because we got on a bigger plane
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13:30:21 <int-e> Oh I skipped the fluff today. "interrupted by the kid sitting next to you" ... I hate it when they do that.
13:31:09 <fizzie> Arcorann_: I wondered about that on day 6. "As your flight approaches the regional airport where you'll switch to a much larger plane --". The previous plane already had 1024 seats, and this one's "much larger"...
13:31:12 <int-e> (I don't recall it ever happened to me, actually.)
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13:32:09 <int-e> fizzie: fun
13:32:33 <int-e> But do we know what species we are? I imagine a lot of elves would fit on an A380.
13:33:16 <fizzie> The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was.
13:33:36 <int-e> Oh right.
13:33:44 <Arcorann_> Heights were basically normal human heights
13:34:02 <int-e> fizzie: Well, we know the bounds for validity which were human-sized.
13:34:13 <int-e> So there goes that theory.
13:34:23 <int-e> Weights too, unfortunately.
13:34:34 <int-e> So much for that theory.
13:35:10 <fizzie> All the titles have so far been Alliterative Assortments too.
13:35:18 <int-e> Maybe the new plane is just a large, flat surface.
13:35:19 <fizzie> (Couldn't come up with a synonym for "pair" starting with a.)
13:36:10 <int-e> I missed the titles too.
13:36:43 <int-e> alternate... alternation... not quite, but it feels like there should be something
13:37:19 <int-e> well, alliterative alternation does not sound completely wrong to me
13:39:14 <int-e> (only mostly wrong)
13:41:50 <int-e> . o O ( rote repetition )
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14:20:41 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> […] The previous plane already had 1024 seats" => no, day 5 twist spec is quite clear that it has somewhat less than 1024 seats, but it indeed turns out to have about 900, so that's only a technical difference
14:21:25 <b_jonas> "The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was." => doesn't matter we have seen much less than the 900 passports, so there could be 300 humans and 600 kobolds on the plane
14:21:56 <b_jonas> the kobolds may be gated to a different security control area, with kobold-sized x-ray machine and kobold-height conveyor belt for the luggage
14:23:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the phrase you want is "Added Alliterative Appeal", see TVTROPES WARNING https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AddedAlliterativeAppeal
14:23:56 <b_jonas> or is it? I guess it's not, that's for a lot of alliteration in the text, it maybe be just https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlliterativeTitle
14:24:05 <int-e> b_jonas: That's cute, but we wanted a pair.
14:24:27 <int-e> Using something that *means* "pair"
14:24:40 <int-e> And that seems to be out of reach, in English at least.
14:25:00 <int-e> "Alliterative Appeal" is good though.
14:26:22 <b_jonas> int-e: Consonance Csomething?
14:26:37 <int-e> Couple?
14:27:53 <int-e> Though I'd really want an adjective there, which would be "Consonant Couple" which makes it look like a noun. Oops.
14:30:17 <b_jonas> Coding contest consonance, or AOC alliteration
14:31:38 <int-e> Hmm, I got no reaction to https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-08.html#lM *sniff*
14:32:23 <b_jonas> also some of you wanted an intcode
14:32:31 <b_jonas> you may have the first part of one
14:32:48 <int-e> Yeah, I know.
14:33:19 <int-e> Next up: memory and IO.
14:33:23 <int-e> I hope.
14:33:57 <int-e> maybe just a stack
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14:34:35 <int-e> A PDA should be powerful enough for AoC. And it even looks similar to a HGC.
14:34:50 <int-e> err, an HGC
14:36:06 <b_jonas> or Abuse of Alliteration
14:36:18 <b_jonas> or just Added Alliteration
14:36:56 <b_jonas> int-e: a PDA, sure. a stack plus just one numeric register? no.
14:37:11 <b_jonas> not unless you get extra registers or access the stack deep enough.
14:38:33 <b_jonas> ok wait, I should solve the task first
14:39:46 <int-e> A stack gives you PDA power... a bit more if the register is an unbounded integer. In fact if you have division with remainder you can maybe even simulate a stack in the register, completing a tape and making it TC? Depends on the details, I guess.
14:40:40 <int-e> I also imagine there's a conditional jump around... otherwise things will be tricky.
14:41:09 <int-e> (so enough to implement any desired amount of finite control)
14:44:51 <int-e> I guess this TC idea hinges on being able to inspect the top stack element without modifying the accumulator, which can either be achieved by adding an additional register, or by adding an swapping operation for the two two stack elements
14:45:32 <int-e> or by specialized instructions that work on the top stack element instead of the accumulator... but that really feels like an extra register.
15:15:37 <int-e> Oh I may be wrong about needing a swap, it's really a question of the order of operands of `mod`. Consider `PUSH; PUSH; IMM 2; RMOD` which extracts the bottom bit of the accumulator if `RMOD` divides the top of the stack by the accumulator. So we can branch based on that value and then `POP` the accumulator.
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15:17:00 <int-e> `RDIV` can pop a bit off the accumulator-based stack. And `PUSH; ADD; ADD` can shift a bit from the stack into the accumulator.
15:17:00 <HackEso> RDIV`? No such file or directory
15:17:14 <int-e> Ah.
15:17:28 <int-e> (Another thing to be wary of.)
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16:22:57 <b_jonas> ok, I admit I totally mispredicted what the thist would be for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/8 , and my program suffered from that; it also suffered from a stupid unrelated bug though
16:25:14 <b_jonas> ok, so what do we call the interpreted language featured in this task? the task doesn't give a name like "Intcode" this time. do we just call it "Handheld halting" from the title of the task until they give a better name?
16:25:58 <b_jonas> or just "Handheld" because "halting" is the task, not the language?
16:38:31 <myname> does it need a language?
16:38:40 <myname> erm, a name
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16:40:52 <b_jonas> myname: it will, after a few more tasks, yes
16:41:05 <b_jonas> it perhaps doesn't need a short name yet, we could wait until the next task
16:41:34 <myname> currently it looks like a crappy assembler
16:42:27 <b_jonas> of course it's possible that they'll throw this language away and a next task will instead be running programs in an unrelated language
16:43:00 <myname> i propose aocembly
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17:22:38 <fizzie> I have a feeling they'd've provided a hint if this was to become a running theme this year.
17:26:23 <fizzie> (They did in day 2 part 2, 2019.)
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17:30:54 <fizzie> I'm also wondering whether everyone just did the obvious O(n^2) part 2, that's basically just n times part 1, because it's definitely not asymptotically optimal, but on the other hand it's perfectly reasonable.
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17:51:18 <shachaf> Oh, this points out some cards actually get worse in a way that can matter, due to not having their text changed: https://www.reddit.com/r/PonzaMTG/comments/83502o/psa_new_planeswalker_redirection_rule_nerfs_some/
17:51:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I did the obvious quadratic, because there are only 617 instructions in the ROM
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17:52:00 <fizzie> So did I, though I'm tempted to add an alternative solution as well.
17:53:19 <fizzie> For example, treating black edges as weight 0 and red edges as weight 1, finding the shortest path in the https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png representation should give the solution in O(n log n) time.
17:53:54 <b_jonas> I did skip rerunning the program for the 338 acc instrs though
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17:57:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I know there's a fast solution, yes.
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18:12:46 <shachaf> There are some regular languages that are very easy to express as NFAs but incredibly complicated as regular expressions. What's that about?
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18:21:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, we talked about them recently. search for http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html in the logs to find it. fizzie: I can't load the https://esolangs.org/logs , is it just me? 504 Gateway Time-out
18:23:35 <fizzie> I got that too.
18:23:36 <b_jonas> I can load the wiki
18:23:54 <b_jonas> ok, good to know
18:24:20 <fizzie> There's something in the websocket support of the (C++) embedded web server serving the logs; either I'm using it wrong, or it has a bug.
18:24:45 <fizzie> Every now and then it goes into this mode where it just stops responding, and some gdb'ing suggested it's related to the stalker mode websocket stuff.
18:25:05 <b_jonas> hmm
18:25:50 <fizzie> I can just restart it, that usually fixes it.
18:26:06 <fizzie> Yep, should be back.
18:26:50 <fizzie> The problem is, it never breaks when I wouldn't have anything better to do than debug it. (Also, I'd need to build a binary with symbols, because "something with websockets" was the closest I could get to by attaching gdb to the binary without them.)
18:31:50 <b_jonas> sad
18:41:12 <arseniiv> played Heaven’s Vault a bit, looks interesting
18:41:44 <arseniiv> and also I played Snake Pass and my fingers are now broken (at least in my imagination)
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19:02:09 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hi, what’s new with that hyper-Malbolge of yours?
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19:35:17 <rain1> Snake Pass is awesome
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19:44:29 <arseniiv> rain1: did you use keyboard or a controller?
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19:46:16 <arseniiv> I totally liked how even in the first level there are coins to grab and I completely missed where they even are. I’ll probably try to find them the next time. On the second level, I grabbed one or two coins, I think, but missed one blobby thing though
19:46:35 <arseniiv> and the sighs Noodle makes are the best
19:48:32 <shachaf> Can't be missing blobby things.
19:49:13 <arseniiv> also I wonder if there is any help from a bought gecko in Heaven’s Vault. Would it come with Aliya and find something in some wall cracks or is it just a decoration now
19:49:57 <arseniiv> we traded two historical artifacts for it, that would be unfair
19:50:22 <rain1> xbox
19:51:44 <arseniiv> rain1: ah, I’m on a keyboard (and mouse, it uses the left button to go and the right to grip), it’s probably harder though I hope I’ll train my hands after the several next playings
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19:55:07 <rain1> i think you need an analog controller
19:55:21 <rain1> or at least it makes it better
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21:05:49 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah it should be more appropriate for that kind of a game
21:06:48 <int-e> looks cute but too hard
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22:24:05 <zzo38> I don't like the planeswalker redirection rule so I think is good they changed that. However, I don't like the wording "any target" because it uses different phrasing than other targets and makes it not sufficiently general. In my own custom cards I am using "target damageable"; such things as "enchant damageable" are also allowed, and for the purpose of text changing effects (such as overload), "any target" used in that way is treated
22:25:59 <zzo38> It is not quite an answer to my original question, though.
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23:31:48 <zzo38> I am having some trouble with internet recently
2020-12-09
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01:03:40 <esowiki> [[LITHP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79326&oldid=35424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) stub,,cats,,
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05:51:01 <int-e> hmm, addition [of] chains
05:52:29 <int-e> more islands trickling in, 512. and another friend that I had not even seen yet
06:00:36 <shachaf> Oh no.
06:00:45 <shachaf> I gotta get back to it.
06:07:58 <int-e> It's getting hard though... some solutions span more than one island, and I never know whether there's a potential raft from another distant island involved in making progress.
06:09:12 <int-e> And obviously there's a selection process going on... survival of the fittest puzzles.
06:11:02 <shachaf> I was not expecting this game to have that many islands.
06:11:14 <shachaf> I was going to say "that many puzzles" but many islands aren't really puzzles.
06:11:24 <shachaf> Or at least if they are it's in a very sophisticated way I haven't figured out.
06:11:48 <int-e> right, there are quite a few islands that basically serve as bridges
06:12:13 <int-e> or where the puzzle is in reaching the island, not in getting off it
06:13:00 <int-e> and of course, in some way, the whole world is just one big puzzle.
06:13:35 <int-e> (though that view makes it hard to explain the precise logic of the 'reset' action.
06:13:38 <int-e> )
06:22:53 <shachaf> That action is already hard to explain exactly.
06:23:05 <shachaf> Or, I mean, the behavior is trickier than it seems at first.
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06:25:36 <int-e> yeah it really is
06:26:08 <shachaf> Presumably this is an important mechanic in later puzzles.
06:26:09 <int-e> even locally I'm not 100% sure how it determines the position you end up after a reset.
06:26:24 <int-e> s/up/up in/
06:26:27 <int-e> or at
06:27:22 <int-e> ugh, that gave me an idea...
06:27:47 <int-e> ...but I won't say what it is.
06:28:03 <int-e> just that it is something that I have not tried out
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10:33:16 <arseniiv> some ideas sleep quite furiously
10:46:51 <fizzie> Okay, I don't think the gap in the calendar meant anything, it was just a visual thing. Judging from the placement of the 10.
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12:43:30 <int-e> fizzie: so... this won't be a straightforward journey then?
12:46:27 <fizzie> I sort of have a feeling fiddling with an "open data port" in a plane you're currently flying in may not be the best of ideas. Especially if it involves paperclips and breaking some encryption. (Can you even call that "open"?)
12:48:51 <fizzie> All the other years' calendars have been going in reverse order, with day 1 at the bottom and day 25 at the top. Guess 2020 is a little different.
12:52:52 <fizzie> Looking at https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html today was the fastest day 9 by far.
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13:02:59 <int-e> Oh I skipped all flavor text today.
13:03:47 <int-e> And for once, I missed out... paper clips!
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13:53:21 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/hydra would be better if OOTS hadn't used the exact same joke better
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21:56:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: actually the task in https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/1 is similar to the task in https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/9 , so at this point I weakly conjecture that there's something of a period of 8 days in the tasks, with empty lines between every 8 lines to enforce that.
21:56:47 <myname> interesting
21:57:23 <b_jonas> these two tasks are also a bit similar to that optimization task about approximating a large number with a product of small prime factors, though of course these are much easier
21:57:41 <b_jonas> I've probably just imagining things though
21:58:08 <fizzie> b_jonas: A period of 8 is what I speculated about too, but the placement of 10 kind of ruins that.
21:58:17 <myname> but there is a break between 9 and 10, too
21:58:26 <myname> :D
21:58:38 <b_jonas> oh yeah... there's a taller gap between 9 and 10. that breaks that idea
21:58:48 <b_jonas> you're right
21:59:53 <b_jonas> oh, I think the graphics on https://adventofcode.com/2020 is supposed to show your travel itinery on a globe. there are gaps because we're now on a long distance airplane. and you can see tracks drawn for both the short airplane ride and the long one.
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22:58:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: I submitted a wrong answer to https://adventofcode.com/2015/day/8 twist and it says "your answer is too high". does this mean I can binary search the answer even for very large problems?
22:59:37 <b_jonas> someone tells me that probably no, because you get increasingly larger timeouts
23:00:05 <fizzie> Hmm, I don't know. I don't remember it saying that.
23:00:57 <fizzie> Could be it gives those hints if it's off by an order of magnitude, too.
23:03:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: this is for 2015, maybe 2020 doesn't do that
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2020-12-10
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00:43:22 <Sgeo> I don't understand C
00:43:36 <Sgeo> Hitting my head on LINK : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol _DllMainCRTStartup while trying to use MS Detours
00:43:51 <Sgeo> Wait no I fixed that
00:44:03 <Sgeo> But I can't get /I to work properly so I have this as an #include
00:44:10 <Sgeo> #include "vcpkg\\installed\\x64-windows\\include\\detours\\detours.h"
00:47:27 <Sgeo> ....how am I magically linking to opengl32.lib?
00:47:34 <Sgeo> I didn't install it into this copy of vcpkg
00:47:35 <Sgeo> I think
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05:39:18 <zzo38> Once I implemented one feature in Free Hero Mesh to list the menu for examining objects (although it is not yet complete), reveals another thing wrong in the conversion (or the loader, but probably the conversion) that sometimes it duplicates objects when it isn't supposed to do, although some of the duplicated objects actually are in the original, some of them aren't.
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05:45:57 <zzo38> Recently (for the past few days), I have had some trouble with internet. Sometimes it will stop after a while (the time it takes for that to happen varies), but restarting the router helps (although often it will work after a while even if the router is not restarted, but it tends to take longer in that case). Do you know what is the problems?
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10:35:44 <earend1> DNS works?
10:36:14 <earend1> what problems? bandwith? no connection?
10:36:21 <earend1> link?
10:36:53 <earend1> i have problems as well. but its HSDPA, or so i believed
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13:51:26 <esowiki> [[ArnoldC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79339&oldid=76885 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) refimpl
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14:44:16 <esowiki> [[Jot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79341&oldid=72850 * Tubs * (+104) /* External resources */ Barker's website is temporarily unavailable
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14:54:16 <nakilon> hello guys, it's good to see there is a chat on this topic
14:56:04 <nakilon> can anyone tell me if there is a language as similar as possible to befunge-93/98 but with the feature of reading and/or popping the value deep inside a stack, not just top 1-2 values?
14:57:06 <b_jonas> `welcome nakilon
14:57:11 <HackEso> nakilon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:57:18 <esowiki> [[User:Tubs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79344 * Tubs * (+218) in case you didn't think i was a human
14:57:43 <esowiki> [[User:Tubs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79345&oldid=79344 * Tubs * (+4)
14:58:45 <fizzie> nakilon: Funge-98 famously does have that feature, as a side effect of the y instruction.
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14:59:15 <fizzie> Oh, and via the stack stack manipulations too, of course.
15:01:53 <fizzie> Specifically, via using N{ first to move the top N values to a new stack, then the u instruction to read/write from the stack stack under the top of the stack stack, and then N} to restore the original top N elements.
15:04:02 <nakilon> 98 is complex ( I can't finish my interpreneter implementation
15:04:16 <nakilon> *interpreter
15:07:22 <nakilon> https://github.com/Nakilon/befunge98
15:10:15 <nakilon> I feel like I want a language with most of the 93 (but without self-modification), just few operators from 98 and easier stack addressing; also with removing the 'g' and 'p' it would limit program space to pi/2 sector and there should be long arbitrary-precision arithmetic or using Rational type by default
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18:22:05 <b_jonas> `? bombchu
18:22:07 <HackEso> bombchu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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19:08:11 <b_jonas> indeed doesn't seem periodic by 8 days
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21:02:00 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79346&oldid=75938 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax & Grammar */ Shouldn't this be 'B'?
21:03:44 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79347&oldid=79346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ github
21:04:24 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79348&oldid=79347 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ cat
21:05:32 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79349&oldid=75937 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Chain Rules */ m
21:07:45 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79350&oldid=79349 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) This is what GitHub says it stands for
21:10:35 <esowiki> [[StaPLe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79351&oldid=41493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+327) /* Example Programs */ Add the actual codes
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21:16:42 <esowiki> [[Pizza]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79352&oldid=56231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) m
21:17:52 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79353&oldid=73973 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+205) please delete
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2020-12-11
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00:47:11 <esowiki> [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79355&oldid=78854 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) t
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02:05:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79356&oldid=79269 * Tetrapyronia * (+207) Added Zeno
02:05:47 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79357&oldid=79270 * Tetrapyronia * (+11)
03:16:28 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (+1248) new language :)
03:17:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79359&oldid=79356 * Tetrapyronia * (+98) Added Cerberus
03:17:45 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79360&oldid=79357 * Tetrapyronia * (+30)
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05:26:15 <aaaaaa> Hi all. What ongoing zoom.us CS-confs are interesting? With a bias to esoteric PLs.
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05:34:15 <shachaf> https://sat-smt.in/ started about half an hour ago.
05:36:07 <aaaaaa> shachaf: yeah
05:36:54 <shachaf> I guess it's not really a conference.
05:37:12 <shachaf> It's very arguably related to #esoterica.
05:37:13 <aaaaaa> Anyway, what zoom confs do you attend? Wondering
05:37:13 <shachaf> Are you attending?
05:37:49 <aaaaaa> shachaf: waiting for Armin Biere :)
05:38:00 <shachaf> Aha.
05:38:06 <aaaaaa> shachaf: I do, this is why I'm asking, maybe there is something interesting as well as this
05:38:36 <shachaf> I'm watching the introductory talk but so far it's all basics.
05:38:37 <aaaaaa> virtual uni, so to say
05:38:44 <aaaaaa> shachaf: yes, basics
05:39:33 <shachaf> I don't know that I want to stay awake until 4 watching these talks.
05:40:00 <shachaf> It all seems a bit silly. If you're just watching a video being streamed, it's a worse experience than watching a recording, which you could watch at 2x speed or pause.
05:40:26 <aaaaaa> Maybe it's all will be uploaded here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm6e0ZSQt-C6iEhBV6TaEdA
05:40:56 <shachaf> Yes, that's what I expect.
05:41:01 <aaaaaa> Yeah, but you can ask a question in zoom
05:41:03 <shachaf> I guess the benefit is asking questions in real time or something.
05:41:05 <shachaf> Right.
05:41:25 <shachaf> So maybe that'd be a better format. I guess some conferences do it that way.
05:42:13 <shachaf> Maybe I should read kissat code to have good questions to ask.
05:43:12 <aaaaaa> Modern SAT solvers are not an easy piece of cake
05:43:29 <shachaf> I read some kissat code before.
05:43:43 <shachaf> I also wrote my own CDCL solver.
05:43:55 <aaaaaa> shachaf: if so, you can probably dive into kissat...
05:44:05 <shachaf> But maybe not in the next hour.
05:45:24 <shachaf> I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?
05:45:44 <aaaaaa> shachaf: dunno. I like this channel because like both CS and some eso-PLs
05:45:50 <imode> satisfied with satisfiability.
05:45:53 <aaaaaa> it's less formal than other CS channels
05:46:39 <shachaf> What are the neato CS channels?
05:46:57 <aaaaaa> shachaf: #cs, #algorithms, whatever on reddit
05:47:15 <aaaaaa> like full of too-seriuous professors
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07:39:21 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79361&oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (-4)
07:59:15 <aaaaaa> shachaf: Armin Biere starts his presentation on zoom
07:59:20 <aaaaaa> starting
07:59:47 <shachaf> I see it.
08:00:08 <shachaf> Hmm, what's your native language, if you have one?
08:00:29 <aaaaaa> huh
08:07:26 <int-e> . o O ( aren't they all artificial )
08:08:45 <shachaf> It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.
08:09:10 <aaaaaa> shachaf: Russian is. Yes, my English is still horrible...
08:09:32 <shachaf> No, I'm not complaining.
08:10:28 <shachaf> Man, kissat is just really good, huh.
08:11:07 <aaaaaa> shachaf: sure, Armin is one of the leading experts
08:12:13 <shachaf> It's too bad it doesn't support incremental solving.
08:12:24 <shachaf> Maybe it will in the future, I think it might've said.
08:13:02 <aaaaaa> MUS is also not supported, AFAIR.
08:13:28 <aaaaaa> The problem is that scientists' goal is to write solvers for competitions, not for real-world projects :(
08:13:45 <aaaaaa> So all they lack something
08:14:58 <int-e> but they source the competition problems from "industrial" sources, which supposedly have real-life relevance?
08:15:10 <int-e> hmm, sourcing from sources, brilliant
08:15:22 <aaaaaa> int-e: you're right indeed
08:15:37 <shachaf> hint-e
08:15:40 <shachaf> Are you attending the session?
08:17:32 <shachaf> I have no sense whether SAT/SMT solvers have actual relevance in industry.
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08:18:59 <aaaaaa> shachaf: they do. If you dig into SAT/SMT benchmarks, there are indeed loads of files from real projects...
08:21:21 <shachaf> aaaaaa: Hmm, is MUS important?
08:22:08 <aaaaaa> shachaf: dunno...
08:22:18 <aaaaaa> shachaf: but it has some use
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08:39:24 <shachaf> Why does this take it to NEXPTIME?
08:39:52 <int-e> `? mus
08:39:53 <HackEso> mus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:42:15 <shachaf> I think it stands for "Minimally Unsatisfiable Subformulas".
08:42:34 <int-e> Oh, a refinement of unsatisfiable cores.
08:44:00 <int-e> They're directly connected to minimal counterexamples, e.g. for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadwiger%E2%80%93Nelson_problem
08:46:05 <int-e> one of the citations there is: 'Heule, Marijn J.H. (2018), Computing Small Unit-Distance Graphs with Chromatic Number 5'... who is another big name in SAT solving.
08:47:00 <int-e> And that effort was all about taking a small-ish counterexample and minimizing it through SAT solving and extraction of unsatisfiable cores, iteratively.
08:47:34 <int-e> (That's without reading the paper, just from what I saw in the corresponding Polymath forum threads.)
08:49:01 <int-e> But also in practice you may benefit a lot from narrowing down contradictions (which may be programming errors) to a smaller set of constraints.
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13:07:46 <esowiki> [[Bet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79362&oldid=76786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) m
13:10:07 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79363&oldid=58231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* See Also */ cats
13:18:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think the difference here is video stream vs in person. the same is basically true for all the first-year basic theoretical classes that CS students got. as there were too many students, the professors didn't want to stop for any particular student's questions, so the classes were effectively non-interactive. we mathematicians fared much better even in first year with the small group:
13:18:06 <b_jonas> back then there were 50 of us as first year together, about 25 active as third year,
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13:19:14 <b_jonas> and about 25 for the later specialized MsC classes which were attended by half of the students in weighted average (that is, there are more than twice as many classes as students take, but you generally take the more popular ones) but also taught in a period of two years instead of one year like the basic classes.
13:19:27 <kritixilithos> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25381325
13:21:18 <b_jonas> the lower record was a logic class about model theory where only two of us plus a professor were in the classroom every week. a few years later the mathematicians grew to about twice that size, which is qualitatively worse because then in the first year median professors started to have a difficulty remembering each student individually. but even then it's much better than the CS students with their 600
13:21:24 <b_jonas> first years and the electric engineers with their 300 first years.
13:23:19 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79364&oldid=75904 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Instruction list */ m
13:23:36 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79365&oldid=79364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Official implementation */ Deadlink
13:23:49 <b_jonas> I do admit that remote communication still makes everything worse, I'm glad I didn't have to go to university during something like this,
13:24:06 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79366&oldid=79361 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) catsh
13:25:07 <b_jonas> and the way I have to work from home now sucks exactly because the communications at this job sucks, there was a lot of information that I could only get in person as corridor rumors.
13:26:22 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?" => yes, somehow. at least if three or four regulars count as "full of"
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13:27:31 <b_jonas> “<shachaf> It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.” interesting, I don't remember you ever complained about how I use English tenses, despite that I often use them at random
13:27:48 <b_jonas> I still don't really understand how they're supposed to work
13:28:04 <int-e> fungot: tell us something random
13:28:05 <fungot> int-e: the great merit of doing this is to be given to structural measures for fleets that needed to be registered on a register on a friday morning, with mr linkohr' s report is very supportive indeed and this is the normalisation process! if we want to use my three minutes' speaking time in this extremely important work of promoting equality of rights and the destruction took place just yesterday in luxembourg constitute a st
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13:46:14 <b_jonas> fungot: What is a fire and why does it – how do you say – burn?
13:46:15 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, the safi report was on the eu side because we believe that the committee responsible was able to have olaf's report so that there can only be obtained once the objectives of the common position also takes into consideration the fact that, even from these references, that the intergovernmental conference is quite intolerable, particularly for women.
13:48:04 <b_jonas> fungot: Open up your eyes, see the world from where I stand: me among the mighty, you caged at my command.
13:48:04 <fungot> b_jonas: given that we have not been matched by action. the european council launched two action plans. i should like to illustrate this alleged change that leon brittan went to present a communication on development policy, to quote the text itself, putting it into franchising and other things.
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14:34:25 <b_jonas> `? fire
14:34:27 <HackEso> Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
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15:01:40 <nakilon> > In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack.
15:01:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
15:01:51 <nakilon> where can I read what the "SGML" is?
15:04:10 <int-e> Have you tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGML
15:07:27 <nakilon> I don't see anything about collapsing space character there (
15:12:59 <b_jonas> nakilon: wait, why would befunge do that?
15:13:50 <b_jonas> I mean in string mode, which is for embedding literals efficienctly
15:14:17 <b_jonas> for normal code it's ok to do that
15:14:28 <nakilon> /shrug
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15:47:27 <nakilon> so I've put my ideas together here: https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel -- not decided yet is if there should be still one stack or maybe two; gonna figure that out in practice
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16:10:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's to make wrapping in stringmode well-defined.
16:11:04 <fizzie> In Befunge-93, you just got as many spaces as there were, because the playfield was a 80x25 bounded rectangle.
16:12:19 <fizzie> At least that's what I've always assumed was the primary reason.
16:12:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
16:13:17 <b_jonas> that might make some sense
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16:40:39 <b_jonas> there's actually a 2d language (with only 2d code, no 2d data or self-modifying code, sort of like Piet) that I sort of might want to make, but I couldn't figure out how it should work yet
16:50:20 <b_jonas> fungot, when have most of the Queen's Guards in London been replaced by robots?
16:50:20 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, i voted for this report, but also of our work to provide an incentive for member states to eliminate the current legal position and removes the option of being sentenced in countries that have also been discovered in addition to guaranteeing a high standard. moreover, we should like to remind you that the european union
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17:44:22 <b_jonas> this looks like it could be solved by a modification of my https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 game of life ran by unpack function, but that would be more difficult than a straightforward solution, so I won't try.
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17:55:07 <fizzie> That reminded me, updated https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html -- looks like today was in line with previous years, unlike the previous two days. Maybe the audience is less familiar with cellular automatatatons than they are with other things.
18:00:21 <b_jonas> also, at least from these days, it looks like they aren't trying to give interesting algorithmic problems, instead they give you coding programs you don't have to think about how to solve because you can just implement them as described. the APL and other array programmer guys probably like it.
18:05:12 <nakilon> what about float numbers in Befunge?
18:05:31 <nakilon> are they not supported?
18:10:24 <fizzie> There's a fingerprint for that.
18:10:38 <fizzie> Or two, actually: FPSP and FPDP.
18:11:15 <fizzie> http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPSP & http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPDP -- they're identical except for single vs. double precision.
18:12:27 <nakilon> thanks
18:13:00 <nakilon> looks like I had no clue about fingerprints
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18:13:22 <fizzie> fungot: Which fingerprints do you use?
18:13:22 <fungot> fizzie: mr celli, with regard to its future neighbours. this is what everyone wants.
18:14:03 <fizzie> The answer is STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, REXP, TOYS and SUBR, though some only very marginally.
18:14:09 <fizzie> (fungot is written in Funge-98.)
18:14:10 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, poor compliance with environmental legislation. the commission and others, on the issue of taxation referred to by lord bethell and the repression of the mountain people of vietnam. these extremely secret documents give us a way out. at the last minute and trying to guide us through the media, lays the foundations for a stable euro. i believe that the definition of a safe roll-over into the new objective 2
18:37:29 <nakilon> what? IRC bot in funge?!
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18:44:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, fungot is written in befunge.
18:44:51 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, all of which are controlled by multinationals and that politics is a job for the large countries. this takes the form of development. i sincerely hope that this clarifies the issue.
18:45:30 <nakilon> cool
18:46:06 <b_jonas> fungot: face it, your majesty. odds are, your curious offspring will befriend an surface dweller or mortal or outsider from the nation you consider your enemy, no matter how much you forbid them. you'd better prepare for it, rather than delude yourself that your authority can avoid it.
18:46:06 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president-in-office, i do personally feel that the distribution of seats in the european commission supports parliament' s secretary-general and the deputy secretary-general of the council says, with dry eyes, on fisheries, but concerns above all the council, commissioner, i represent the italian pensioners' party membership card in order to reduce the democratic deficit, but constitution stripping of this kind must
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18:58:07 <b_jonas> this one took a lot of time to solve. the point to take away for me is this: either stick to nice medium-long identifiers like I use in programs that I want others to see, or work on figuring out how to use short identifiers in a way that I don't end up confusing myself, using the same name for multiple things, using different names for the same thing, referring to the wrong variable, etc.
18:58:46 <b_jonas> I used to write programs with short identifiers, but that was ages ago, and I apparently forgot the trick, so for programs that use a lot of different variables I mess up
19:10:57 <zzo38> You can add comments if that can help to explain what a variable is for
19:13:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: that only helps in long programs. short variable names are for short programs that I write once then forget about them, like for AoC and all the short programs I write for one-off tasks
19:13:25 <b_jonas> the problem here is that I confuse the variables even as I write those short programs
19:13:47 <b_jonas> I don't remember them half an hour after I write the code
19:14:03 <b_jonas> can't predict them or understand them, unlike the medium-long ones that I'm used to
19:14:24 <b_jonas> perhaps it's just lack of practice, perhaps I should just not use a short variable name scheme at all
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20:30:11 <zzo38> I have asked about rule 305.9 on rec.games.trading-cards.misc.rules, and have gotten a few replies, but they only say that rule 305.9 is meant to clarify that a land cannot be cast even if it has another type. However, I have failed to find any rule that specifically says that a land cannot be cast if some effect says to cast that card.
20:49:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, this is about the double-faced land things again. I'll have to check the rules if they patched the oversight with them.
20:49:55 <b_jonas> when the next rules version comes out, or is it already out?
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20:56:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: I'm not complaining!
20:59:28 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79367&oldid=50976 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) links +++ cats
21:01:21 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79368&oldid=79367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 2007
21:01:29 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79369&oldid=79368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) dammit
21:02:03 <zzo38> I don't know. I they are, I will download it. However, they do write about them before the new rules are published, usually
21:02:41 <esowiki> [[Implieses]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79370&oldid=50995 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Append docile ocelots to the page
21:06:12 <fizzie> ^source
21:06:12 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:06:14 <fizzie> nakilon: ^
21:09:45 <nakilon> omg
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21:15:37 <nakilon> fizzie is author here?
21:26:31 <nakilon> have a pull request https://github.com/fis/fungot/pull/1
21:26:31 <fungot> nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, one thing must be clear: we cannot blow the case out of all proportion to the fishing opportunities and the fight for windmills is one where a german would have faced prosecution. so the combined efforts of the member states, of which i have just heard the commissioner speak. a fine, resolute speech after the speech by the commissioner.
21:38:40 <fizzie> Clicked the button.
21:40:01 <nakilon> oh it's you ..D
21:40:03 <nakilon> thanks
21:48:40 <nakilon> b_jonas I use such rules: 1) one char long variable name should only be used when it's standard, like i, j, k for indexes, n for "number of somethings", etc. 2) if I append "s" to it (like is, js, ks, ns) it means an array of them 3) the "_" variable name for one time usage
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21:49:26 <nakilon> *indices
21:51:14 <nakilon> also could be "t" instead of "_"
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21:57:06 <kmc> very haskelly
21:57:21 <kmc> except the haskellers use single letter names for everything because it makes them feel like they're doing math
21:59:02 <fizzie> Go-ers use a lot of single-letter names too, though I'm not sure why. It's a cultural thing.
22:11:39 <nakilon> fizzie I feel like now that source code is highlighted
22:12:11 <nakilon> no very correct though, since it's hard to see that p and g between " are text, not instructions
22:14:17 <fizzie> Mm, well, it's a hard problem. It doesn't seem to have highlighted the main source file, either.
22:15:33 <fizzie> Funnily enough, fungot does not use very much self-modifying code. If memory serves, I successfully ran it on an AOT compiler once.
22:15:34 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, you mentioned the hague convention of 1996 which, thankfully, was taken up with the arrogance of the world. the death penalty and the affirmation of the european institutions to put the extension of the mandate of the auto/ oil package which includes a visit to central america at the wto.
22:17:10 <nakilon> one "g" can easily be a part of horizontal string and an instruction from some vertical direction
22:17:32 <nakilon> same for "v"
22:17:55 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that was a caching issue, fungot.b98 is highlighted now that I reloaded it.
22:17:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i too had not intended the interpretation which has been followed here since the santini report. or if we have agreed at community level in the commission, mrs de palacio, of the type involved, specialized agriculture using a labour force which is in danger and that it will also provide a guarantee of industrial feasibility, respecting the financial interests of the consumer in this modern age demands. in
22:18:18 <fizzie> It doesn't understand a-f as numeric either, guess it's optimized for '93.
22:19:02 <fizzie> Well, at least it looks festive, which is appropriate for the season.
22:35:07 <nakilon> is Chris Pressey in this channel?
22:36:01 <fizzie> Sometimes, but not since September this year.
22:36:51 <fizzie> s/September/October/
22:36:57 <fizzie> (What's wrong with my log-rsync?)
22:40:24 <fizzie> (Oh, the remote command it uses had changed from `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxC` to `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxCIvu` and I had made the key very picky in what can be done with it.)
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23:31:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, the one time usage variables starting with underscore are easy, because I only have to write them once so it doesn't really matter what I name them. but already with an s suffix there's a problem: does s stand for sequence/array or string? how do I call the other? if I use v for arrays, then how do I abbreviate value? I just keep getting myself confused.
23:32:20 <b_jonas> I should probably just stick to longer names, it doesn't hurt that much to use them
23:32:49 <nakilon> when I mean string I add "str"
23:33:38 <nakilon> k, v for key and value when iterating over associating arrays, so I'll never call an array v
23:33:51 <nakilon> *associative
23:33:57 <b_jonas> if I try to use one-two-three letter variable names, there are just too many words that abbreviate to the common letters like s n d whatever, and oddly v too
23:35:03 <nakilon> if I mean array sometimes "array" is exactly how I name that var )
23:35:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't find that too strange. befunge doesn't force you to use self-modifying code for anything, it's not like you have to write indexes or anything into character cells, in fact it doesn't even provide good tools to write numbers to code, at most you can write booleans easily. not using self-modifying code is just the easiest way to write befunge.
23:36:13 <fizzie> Well, true. But it's sort of a signature move for the language.
23:36:17 <b_jonas> also sometimes I run into conflicts with the short keywords: in particular, I know I must not call an input file handle `if`, because that's a keyword
23:36:44 <fizzie> (The admin ^reload and ^code commands of course do self-modify, but that's kind of special.)
23:37:30 <fizzie> You can write numbers to code very easily in Funge-98, you just prepend the number with '
23:37:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, there is such a primitive? let me see
23:39:10 <fizzie> It's called the "one-shot stringmode".
23:39:33 <b_jonas> nice
23:39:44 <b_jonas> are the cells single bytes?
23:39:49 <nakilon> in Ruby 1.8 you could write ?a and that was a number corresponding to ascii a code
23:39:59 <fizzie> No, they're arbitrary integers, usually 32-bit signed ones.
23:40:02 <nakilon> then it changed so it's "a"
23:40:05 <b_jonas> oh nice
23:40:10 <b_jonas> so they're the same type as on the stack
23:40:12 <nakilon> (1 char long string)
23:40:30 <b_jonas> yes, that sounds like you can write self-modifying code (unless of course you want multi-threaded or otherwise reentrant code)
23:40:42 <b_jonas> it could be hard to optimize of course
23:42:04 <b_jonas> you'd need something like qemu that tracks which cells are compiled and what it has to recompile at every store, but qemu can do that efficiently because programs optimized for normal cpus already know that they shouldn't write and execute from the same page too much, because it can be very slow
23:42:29 <b_jonas> doing it at a granularity smaller than pages would be rather inefficient
23:42:35 <fizzie> I think gForth has that character literal syntax too.
23:42:38 <fizzie> `forth 'a .
23:42:39 <HackEso> 97
23:42:56 <fizzie> I think it's sort of uncommon though.
23:42:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: and so do some lisps, though I think the prefix is two characters there
23:43:22 <fizzie> Scheme has #\x.
23:43:57 <fizzie> (In line with various other things beginning with #, like #t and #f for the booleans.)
23:45:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. I would actually like to see a convention where the octotrophe serves as eitehr a comment marker if there's a space before it, or a rare token suffix if there's no space before it, but it looks like the only language that does that is K the apl-like
23:45:38 <b_jonas> it would work because it's already a convention that there's always whitespace (or the beginning of the file) before a comment marker
23:46:14 <b_jonas> so this would effectively save one of the precious 33 ascii punctuation
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2020-12-12
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00:38:36 <esowiki> [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79371&oldid=72565 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) eso style
00:40:17 <esowiki> [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79372&oldid=79371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* External resources */ deadlink, style
00:41:54 <esowiki> [[Template talk:Cn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79373&oldid=62043 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+163) /* Why does the template link to xkcd's comic Wikipedian Protester? */ reply
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01:49:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79374&oldid=79340 * Unl256 * (+208) /* Introductions */
01:55:16 <esowiki> [[Tiangou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79375 * Tetrapyronia * (+1084) Created page with "'''Tiangou''' is a derivative and wimpmode of [[Cerberus]]. It only has 1 line, which is a list of commands separated by spaces. All the commands correspond to one in Cerberus..."
01:57:09 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79376&oldid=79360 * Tetrapyronia * (+28)
01:58:47 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79377&oldid=79359 * Tetrapyronia * (+34) Added Tiangou
01:59:50 <fizzie> Bluh. VS Code's git integration certainly isn't philosophically aligned with good commit messages: it's a single-line textbox with no support for the recommendations about line widths and such.
02:00:41 <fizzie> https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/85721 "Most people don't really want a full editor taking away workbench space. They just want to type a message and move on."
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04:12:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Scientificworld * New user account
04:39:46 <aaaaaa> shachaf: sleepy? :)
04:40:11 <shachaf> aaaaaa: I stayed up until 5 last night.
04:40:22 <shachaf> I'm not sure I should actually be attending.
04:40:36 <shachaf> It might make more sense to watch videos.
04:41:17 <aaaaaa> yeah, this is sensible
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04:54:15 <aaaaaa> I don't like videos at all. What is the sense to watch how someone download something, installs, etc.
04:55:18 <aaaaaa> Surely, video is the right format for cook or guitar lessons
04:55:43 <aaaaaa> But not for CS or math or programming
04:57:31 <int-e> Actually even for cooking and guitar lessons it seems more like a supplementary thing... you get to see how it's done, but there's still a lot of information that can be condensed into text and a few selected images.
04:59:31 <int-e> I absolutely agree with the sentiment, of course. Videos are hard to bookmark and hard to skim for relevant information.
05:17:27 <int-e> Oh and they're hard to annotate, too.
05:18:35 <arseniiv> math videos may be useful too, but I agree with int-e on for what extent
05:20:15 <arseniiv> like, showing low-dimensional geometric or topologic things and visualizations of many more concepts and something like that
05:20:16 <int-e> I suppose you can treat them as lectures.
05:20:48 <int-e> Meaning, something that makes it easier to hold your attention compared to reading a bunch of notes.
05:21:00 <arseniiv> yeah
05:21:58 <arseniiv> but notes usually don’t have animation so in several cases you need to know how to animate in your head, and some don’t seem to be lucky to pick that automatically
05:22:00 <int-e> Maybe even take notes along the way so you have a reference. This is all theory though...
05:22:28 <arseniiv> notes are essential too, I think the same
05:23:25 <arseniiv> I note how I forget books for which I didn’t practice on paper for some extent
05:23:26 <int-e> shachaf: how's your hiding spot?
05:23:39 <shachaf> No more hiding since last time.
05:24:02 <int-e> no more island hopping either I guess
05:24:44 <int-e> Hmm, the AoC solvers are slowing down.
05:25:33 <int-e> almost 11 minutes for the 100th to reach the second part
05:26:41 <aaaaaa> What is AoC?
05:26:46 <imode> Advent of Code.
05:28:15 <shachaf> Axiom of Choice.
05:28:51 <imode> Area of Concern.
05:29:32 <int-e> Anarchy of Confusion
05:29:53 <int-e> Appearance of Competence
05:30:20 <int-e> Absence of Confidence
05:30:38 <aaaaaa> https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/AOC
05:34:05 <int-e> `coins
05:34:07 <HackEso> goldbuntucoin barandcoin zetalitzcoin waicoin cakenemonkecoin maticoin ble-2dcoin xsamcoin burrocoin raczcoin sepaitcoin pingcoin sqrcoin stecoin eyecoin spaceapiflemargfallercoin ozocoin unlcoin wilson-texcoin zadicoin
05:35:08 <int-e> "eyecoin" will attract Apple's ire for sure.
05:35:40 <Arcorann> aaaaaa: http://adventofrealizingicantread.com
05:36:20 <imode> did you just
05:36:32 <imode> who owns that lmao.
05:36:55 <int-e> hmm Creation Date: 2019-12-12T15:19:41Z
05:37:32 <int-e> and why does it forward to day 8
05:37:52 <imode> where the hell did it come from.
05:38:04 <Arcorann> Don't know, it was posted in another channel a while back
05:38:18 <Arcorann> ##adventofcode, actually
05:38:28 <imode> baahahahahahaha.
05:38:32 <int-e> I produced so many bugs yesterday it was embarrassing
05:38:42 <int-e> today went way more smoothly
05:39:20 <int-e> (yesterday I also had a nice list based solution for part 1, which really didn't generalize nicely for part 2)
05:39:31 <int-e> (which really annoyed me quite a bit)
05:39:40 <shachaf> I registered play.contact the other day.
05:39:51 <int-e> why?
05:40:01 <shachaf> To play Contact.
05:40:19 <shachaf> The current implementation is a very rough proof of concept I wrote years ago.
05:40:33 <shachaf> And no one plays it anymore.
05:41:09 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_(video_game) <-- not this then I suppose
05:41:28 <shachaf> No, it's http://mrwright.name/stuff/contact.txt
05:41:41 <shachaf> Except with a program instead of IRC.
05:42:07 <shachaf> I should write up rules for my variant.
05:43:40 <shachaf> I wonder who this human is.
05:44:10 <int-e> "destabilize"... OW.
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06:23:53 <zzo38> Finally, now I managed to get level 45 of the SANDY1 puzzle set to be initialized correctly. (Level 21 doesn't work; it results in a "type mismatch" error, due to a mistake in the level data itself. I am unlikely to fix this; the level designer should fix this. This is because many of the Switches have a Misc1 value of $Hero, and it is supposed to be a number.)
06:30:57 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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07:32:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79378&oldid=79374 * Scientificworld * (+160)
07:33:15 <esowiki> [[Md5sha1fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79379 * Scientificworld * (+921) Created page with "'''Md5sha1fuck''' is an esolang invented by [[User:Scientificworld]]. ==Theory== Connect the md5 value and the sha1 value of the string together, detect all the characters o..."
07:35:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79380&oldid=79322 * Scientificworld * (+18) /* M */
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07:41:14 <esowiki> [[User:Scientificworld]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79381 * Scientificworld * (+28) Meow~~
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07:43:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Scientificworld]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79382 * Scientificworld * (+35) Meow~~
07:57:57 <zzo38> Why does Hero Mesh have both Busy and UserSignal, even though they do the same thing?
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08:44:46 <rain1> hell
08:44:49 <rain1> hello*
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09:05:06 <aaaaaa> hello
09:30:10 <esowiki> [[SCAB computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79383&oldid=68721 * Mscibett * (-3)
09:31:54 <esowiki> [[TOGA computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79384&oldid=68884 * Mscibett * (-4)
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12:15:14 <fizzie> I do like turtle graphics, but there isn't really anything particularly *puzzling* about it, is there?
12:15:56 <int-e> Is that how you perceive today's AoC? Hmm.
12:16:06 <int-e> Actually I was annoyed by the nomenclature in part 2.
12:16:18 <fizzie> You don't think waypoints should move?
12:16:25 <fizzie> As in, be relative.
12:16:29 <int-e> I don't think it should be called a waypoint then.
12:16:51 <int-e> so yes.
12:20:39 <fizzie> I tried out VS Code's Go extension for the first time for today's puzzle, and it's insisting that the `day12` package I added doesn't exist in the squiggly-line diagnostics of the file where all the days get imported, but from the terminal it works just fine, so something's off there.
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12:23:22 <int-e> It's bound to be some common but unnecessary convention.
12:24:10 <fizzie> Restarting the silly thing fixed it, which I kind of expected.
12:24:23 <fizzie> So I think some sort of a cache, but couldn't find any explicit action to refresh it.
12:26:16 <fizzie> Also still can't get over that git commit message thing. But the parts that do work just somehow feel more modern than Emacsing it (plus I just couldn't bear figuring out how to set up gopls and Emacs lsp-mode).
12:26:24 <int-e> vs code annoys me, it's too popular for something build on quicksand, I mean, Electron
12:26:33 <int-e> *built
12:27:15 <fizzie> It does seem to be very popular, yes.
12:27:22 <int-e> I also have to think of 100% CPU usage for a blinking cursor, though I understand they fixed that fairly quickly.
12:28:19 <fizzie> Oh, another positive: the diff view in the source control integration is nicer than Magit's.
12:30:09 <fizzie> But I'm still doing commit from the integrated terminal, which starts up Emacs for editing the commit message, which feels fairly silly. Saw on the Internet that people did have settings where you could get a new VS Code tab as the commit message editor, but I'd only want that when inside VS Code, and I don't think I can easily get that.
12:31:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe with some alias specific to the shell in that terminal, which passes the settings with -c.
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12:54:09 <int-e> emacs inside a shell inside another IDE... sounds fun
12:55:13 <int-e> I use vim for commit messages, somehow. Mostly because I don't expect to use any advanced editing capabilities and vim still starts up more quickly.
12:55:50 <int-e> Though maybe by now hardware is fast enough that it doesn't really matter. 10 years ago it still mattered.
12:56:28 <int-e> But I'm a creature of habits.
12:58:19 <fizzie> I used to use Vim for that too, for a long time.
12:58:49 <fizzie> Then as part of setting up emacsclient and $EDITOR and whatnot, that accidentally got changed too, and I just let it be.
13:15:39 <esowiki> [[Tiangou]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79385&oldid=79375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) cats, hdr, link
13:17:40 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79386&oldid=79366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Example Program: Truth-machine */ shtack
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13:48:11 <esowiki> [[Md5sha1fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79387&oldid=79379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) cats
13:48:48 <b_jonas> "but notes usually don’t have animation" => these days we have HTML (and all those computer algebra software worksheet software too), you can embed anything, even animation if it's helpful, or hyperlinks to other resources. such a useful invention.
13:49:10 <b_jonas> I don't see why "animate in hour head" is useful
13:50:15 <b_jonas> `? aoc
13:50:19 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
13:50:25 <b_jonas> aaaaaa: ^
13:56:12 <int-e> The HGC has not returned... I'm beginning to think that there just isn't a thematic virtual machine this time.
13:59:17 <fizzie> We're almost halfway through, I think that's getting quite likely.
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14:04:48 <int-e> Maybe there were complaints about tasks reusing code from previous days instead of starting from scratch.
14:05:05 * int-e is speculating.
14:05:10 * int-e likes speculating.
14:05:31 <int-e> shachaf: ^^this may interest you, I've found something I like.
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14:16:07 <fizzie> Here's a great VS Code + gopls behavior: I get "could not import" errors for (new-ish) packages inside the current module, but if I either open or close an editor window that has the `go.mod` file open, the problems go away. Keeping it open doesn't help: I have to either open or close an editor tab with the file.
14:16:12 <fizzie> Too much magic, that's what I say.
14:29:38 <fizzie> "could not import io (no package for import io)" this is getting ridiculous.
14:30:33 <fizzie> Don't know whether to blame gopls (it's in alpha) or VS Code (you called it quicksand).
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15:08:24 <nakilon> coming up with docs and tests is hard _-- at least while I'm just starting
15:08:49 <nakilon> spent the whole day on one instruction with a single test
15:09:00 <nakilon> complex test though
15:09:19 <nakilon> that discovered I had a bug
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17:47:32 <esowiki> [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79389&oldid=75641 * Lebster * (+783) added hex column
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17:50:53 <esowiki> [[Rogex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79390&oldid=70976 * Lebster * (-4) lowercase (doh!)
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19:58:54 <shachaf> int-e: I thought you liked many things, and only this was an exception.
20:05:59 <int-e> this is awful
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2020-12-13
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00:49:22 <fizzie> Did days 1-9 of 2018 to get a little bit more context. Honestly they're not that dissimilar from this year, so I'm thinking 2019 was just very #esoteric-audience-appropriate year.
01:00:59 <nakilon> I could not continue 2019 in Befunge https://github.com/Nakilon/adventofcode-befunge
01:01:19 <nakilon> because the next task demanded dances with 'g' and 'p'
01:02:14 <nakilon> that's why I finally started making my language and I'll continue solving 2019 in it
01:02:57 <fizzie> I think we discussed how all those people who do the "every day a new language" challenge might've been a bit miffed about the whole Intcode thing.
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01:42:43 <b_jonas> oh nice! https://adventofcode.com/2020 so the ship is now moving east and slightly north so day 13 will be above day 12 on the world map
01:45:54 <fizzie> Yeah, could be we're filling all the gaps.
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01:49:19 <b_jonas> also I managed to implement day 12 original the right way, so it was trival to add the twist for once
01:50:10 <fizzie> As another random observation, there's been no non-numeric answers so far.
01:51:15 <fizzie> Hmm, wonder what the error message is for non-numeric wrong answers. Presumably not higher/lower, at least.
02:19:54 <Arcorann> AoC answer is always numeric
02:20:05 <Arcorann> *almost always
02:20:39 <Arcorann> Something like 2018 day 7 is alphabetical
02:21:43 <Arcorann> And there've been a couple of times where we had to read out ASCII-art text
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02:25:09 <esowiki> [[User:UltimateProGrammer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79392&oldid=72591 * UltimateProGrammer * (-183) Update to not be dumb
02:25:50 <fizzie> Days 8 and 11 of 2019, and days 2, 7 and 10 of the ten first days of 2018 involved non-numeric answers.
02:26:42 <fizzie> I'd count ascii-art numbers as numeric, but ascii-art text is clearly alphabetical.
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05:18:33 <int-e> `? ꙮ
05:18:36 <HackEso> ​ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
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05:18:45 <int-e> `? limerick
05:18:47 <HackEso> A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet.
05:19:08 <int-e> `' ꙮ
05:19:08 <HackEso> No output.
05:20:42 <int-e> `' 1130
05:20:42 <HackEso> 1130) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ê™®s, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
05:20:50 <int-e> uh-oh, what happened there
05:21:02 <int-e> `hurl quotes
05:21:03 <HackEso> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
05:21:08 <int-e> `hurl ../quotes
05:21:10 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/quotes
05:25:42 <int-e> `` cd ..; hg revert -r d3ee6de4b493 quotes
05:25:43 <HackEso> abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system
05:26:05 <int-e> `? revert
05:26:07 <HackEso> ​`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/>. It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands.
05:26:18 <int-e> well, that's too coarse
05:27:38 <int-e> anyway, somebody used `fetch off channel in an attempt to (apparently) restore some old quote they missed and remove some others, but also completely destroyed the utf-8 in there
05:28:29 <int-e> `' 1248
05:28:30 <HackEso> 1247) <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
05:28:50 <int-e> `' 1240
05:28:51 <HackEso> 1239) <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there
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05:30:47 <int-e> `fetch ../quotes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes
05:30:48 <HackEso> 2020-12-13 05:30:47 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes [161313/161313] -> "/hackenv/quotes" [1]
05:32:02 <int-e> `' ꙮ
05:32:04 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
05:32:13 <int-e> `' 1240
05:32:14 <HackEso> 1240) <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
05:33:02 <int-e> fizzie: the offending commit is https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/rev/369cb8f8fd16 is this what using the web editor looks like?
05:36:33 <int-e> ...and it went unnoticed for over 2 months...
05:37:47 <int-e> user3456: See above... I don't know what your intentions were in that change, but the result was really messed up.
05:38:12 <int-e> `? remember
05:38:13 <HackEso> remember? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:38:29 <int-e> `? addquote
05:38:30 <HackEso> addquote? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:39:05 <int-e> No entry, hmm.
05:40:06 <int-e> `le/rn addquote//The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there.
05:40:13 <HackEso> Learned 'addquote': The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there.
05:40:54 <int-e> `? quotes
05:40:56 <HackEso> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
05:42:30 <int-e> And... I still wonder how to revert a file to an old revision... the `fetch thing works but it's breaking my heart.
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06:17:58 <shachaf> Wasn't there a command for it?
06:18:27 <int-e> Well, probably. But it wasn't `revert
06:18:30 <int-e> `help
06:18:30 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
06:18:52 <int-e> and it's not mentined here either
06:19:36 <int-e> `scold HackEso
06:19:37 <HackEso> BAD! BAD HACKESO!
06:20:02 <int-e> `` ls ../bin | wc -l
06:20:06 <HackEso> 478
06:23:06 <int-e> `` ls ..
06:23:07 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
06:25:52 <shachaf> Let's see, there was `undo, but that's not the same.
06:26:24 <shachaf> Maybe it was `hg cat -r`.
06:26:39 <shachaf> `` doag | grep 'hg cat'
06:26:44 <HackEso> 12018:2019-11-14 <b_jonäs> `` hg cat -r 9075 bin/random-card > bin/random-card \ 11974:2019-10-21 <b_jonäs> `` hg cat -r 11938 share/whatis > share/whatis \ 11762:2019-03-27 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 8425 wisdom/\\` >wisdom/\\` \ 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11504:2018-04-13 <shachäf> ` hg cat -r 4569 share/8ballreplies > share/ballreplies \ 11495:2018-04-12 <shachäf> ` hg ca
06:28:35 <int-e> ah
06:28:46 <int-e> yeah, that makes sense. thanks
06:29:51 <int-e> actually it's kind of lucky that hg revert doesn't work, because otherwise there'd now be a backup file to clean up
06:30:26 <int-e> `` doag | grep raw-file
06:30:30 <HackEso> 12357:2020-12-13 <int-̈e> fetch ../quotes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes \ 10317:2017-02-18 <fizzïe> ` sed -e \'s,index.cgi/file,index.cgi/raw-file,\' < bin/url > bin/raw-url # this one didn\'t even support tmp/ \ 4249:2013-12-30 <oerjän> learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg \ 2671:2013-04-14 <Jafe
06:31:06 <int-e> seems I was... creative
06:58:03 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, I just went back to expediting and right away found a new mechanic.
06:58:13 <shachaf> Unfortunately it prevents me from solving a puzzle, rather than allowing me to solve it.
06:59:16 <shachaf> Ah, solved it.
06:59:23 <shachaf> It was a dead end anyway.
06:59:33 <int-e> did it have a landmark
06:59:51 <int-e> or a friend? or was it just 100% disappointment?
07:01:02 <shachaf> It had a house of cards.
07:01:16 <shachaf> In retrospect that island should have been relatively easy but I had a surprising amount of trouble with it.
07:04:21 <shachaf> Oh no, am I stuck?
07:04:50 <shachaf> Ah, no, I can get back through the rubber duck.
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07:17:49 <int-e> hmm there's more to do there
07:19:50 <shachaf> Yes, I was just wondering about the footprints in the map there.
07:20:16 <shachaf> Oh, of course. Man.
07:20:37 <shachaf> Got it.
07:20:52 <shachaf> I was wondering whether that island was solvable on its own.
07:23:41 <shachaf> Hmm, a snowman.
07:24:50 <int-e> yeah
07:24:57 <int-e> so close yet so far
07:25:09 <shachaf> Just like friends in real life. :-(
07:25:39 <int-e> I haven't reached that one yet
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07:37:29 <int-e> I haven't touched the game much either though. 513 islands now (+1 from last report)... that one had a friend though, remarkably.
07:37:56 <int-e> Which I hadn't seen before. So there are at least 10 friends to find.
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07:46:05 <shachaf> I think I'm at 192 or so.
07:46:09 <shachaf> 197
07:46:44 <shachaf> 513 sounds like way too many.
07:49:49 <int-e> I think you'll need 300 or 350 to reach the end
07:50:07 <int-e> but there's a lot of area to the sides
07:51:02 <int-e> And it's worth reaching the end first... it lifts the global fog so you can assess the area where islands are
07:51:26 <int-e> I hope that isn't a huge spoiler.
07:52:11 <shachaf> You've mentioned it already, anyway.
07:52:44 <int-e> (To my mind the fog is mainly fluff for flavor and guidance (see where you've been), not an essential part of the puzzles.)
07:53:55 <shachaf> I think "there's more to do there" was more arguably a spoiler.
07:54:05 <shachaf> Though I was just thinking along those lines myself anyway, seeing the footprints.
07:54:21 <int-e> Yeah I thought of that as a spoiler.
07:54:40 <int-e> Not a tremendously big one, but still.
07:57:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I like the puzzle at 264,237
07:57:34 <shachaf> Even if it's kind of simple
07:57:44 <shachaf> (The one right before the human bicycle.)
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08:02:05 <shachaf> And it leads to a fun series of (easy) puzzles, too.
08:04:20 <shachaf> Or maybe they stop being easy, who knows.
08:07:49 <int-e> I forgot already
08:08:02 <int-e> I can probably step on an island, reset it, and solve it again
08:08:21 <int-e> but I don't even know what puzzle theme is beyond the windmill
08:08:30 <int-e> (they are quite thematic)
08:08:42 <int-e> (which *is* nice)
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08:13:12 <zzo38> Probably, the level compression of Free Hero Mesh should be improved. It is better than Hero Mesh (which doesn't compress and also is inefficient in its coding in other ways), but perhaps improvement could be made. I tried a few things that didn't work. (Maybe, if I try again 100 times then maybe it will eventually work, I don't know.)
08:13:52 <shachaf> The series I was talking about seems to have the theme "push off of a non-rock".
08:14:15 <int-e> zzo38: how many GB of data are you talking about
08:14:45 <int-e> shachaf: ah, littering
08:15:12 <zzo38> int-e: Less than one.
08:15:39 <int-e> zzo38: so maybe it's not worth improving the compression for
08:16:12 <zzo38> (But if a collection of many puzzle sets is made later, then there will be more.)
08:16:47 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren't_gonna_need_it
08:17:56 <zzo38> int-e: Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps it can even be simplified from what it is now (although it can still be made more efficient than the EKS format, which uses 16-bit fields even though only 8-bits are needed).
08:18:04 <shachaf> OK, enough for today.
08:18:08 <shachaf> I'm at 224 islands.
08:18:32 <int-e> progress
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08:18:47 <int-e> @time shachaf
08:18:48 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Dec 13 00:18:47 2020
08:19:15 <shachaf> I'm sort of supposed to be attending the SAT thing, too.
08:19:21 <shachaf> But I'll just watch the videos instead.
08:19:32 <int-e> zoom!
08:19:48 <int-e> I guess you miss the discussions
08:20:13 <int-e> (that is, the opportunity to participate in them)
08:20:36 <int-e> (which is intimidating and hard)
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08:24:51 <shachaf> The main problem is that the talks themselves are recorded, and I don't want my voice in them.
08:25:11 <shachaf> I did type a few questions that the speaker answered, before.
08:25:25 <shachaf> Did I mention the surprising fact the speaker said?
08:25:54 <shachaf> The fact is: For UNSAT instances, you should restart very frequently, and for SAT instances, you should restart infrequently.
08:26:04 <shachaf> If you'd asked me to guess, I would've predicted the exact opposite.
08:27:14 <int-e> hmm, yeah that feels counterintuitive.
08:28:03 <zzo38> I will still need to fix the level compression anyways, since in one converted level, it results three Field objects at (7,1) even though there is supposed to be only two (although all but one is redundant anyways, but that is what it is in the original; it isn't my fault!)
08:29:43 <int-e> I can rationalize the former a bit, I guess: maybe for UNSAT the idea is that when you take a fresh look at the problem you gain insights (learn clauses) that are unrelated to what you did before... and hence maybe more useful
08:30:24 <int-e> rathet than comprehensively exploring a corner of the problem based on the first couple of choices you made.
08:30:33 <int-e> *rather
08:31:12 <int-e> And SAT might actually need a distinction between problems with few models and problems with plenty of them.
08:33:48 <zzo38> What does UNSAT mean?
08:34:33 <int-e> unsatisfactory... sorry, kidding. unsatisfiable
08:35:13 <shachaf> int-e: My original intuition for restarting was, maybe you get stuck in some difficult and fruitless subtree for a long time, and if you'd just started with a slightly different guess you'd've found a solution immediately.
08:35:24 <shachaf> But that seems more applicable to SAT than to UNSAT.
08:35:37 <int-e> SAT and UNSAT are names for the yes and no answer of a (here: propositional) satisfiability problem.
08:35:44 <shachaf> Yes.
08:36:00 <shachaf> I mean, if there is a solution, it seems like maybe you can jump around and hope to find it.
08:36:11 <shachaf> But if there isn't one then it seems like you'd need to be more exhaustive.
08:36:15 <int-e> shachaf: Right, but one of the lessons here, I think, is that you really have to think in terms of learning.
08:36:17 <zzo38> O, OK.
08:36:19 <shachaf> Certainly for regular DPLL it seems like that's how it'd work.
08:36:32 <shachaf> Right, I was about to say. It must be about clause learning things that I don't have a good feel for here.
08:37:02 <shachaf> I meant "more applicable to SAT instances than to UNSAT instances".
08:37:17 <int-e> Yeah I've been there :)
08:38:16 <int-e> As you probably know there are randomized solvers that are only good for SAT instances... random walks are kind of continuous restarts
08:39:03 <int-e> I don't know whether they're still better than CDCL solvers for SAT instances. They used to be.
08:41:57 <aaaaaa> int-e: WalkSAT. But only good for underconstrained problems. I.e., that can have many solutions. AFAIR!
08:42:15 <aaaaaa> Like $n$ queens
08:44:28 <shachaf> Randomized solvers as in local search?
08:45:28 <shachaf> https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.4413 makes the argument that CDCL solvers with very frequent restarts are very similar to local search.
08:50:46 <int-e> That resonates... I may have seen or heard that idea before somewhere.
08:51:09 <int-e> Can't place it though.
08:57:04 <aaaaaa> Have you seen this? https://github.com/marijnheule/microsat
08:57:22 <aaaaaa> Nice code, but a possible contender for IOCCC title
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09:01:35 <shachaf> I've seen it and even worked through most of the code, I think.
09:01:47 <aaaaaa> shachaf: cool
09:02:03 <shachaf> I should fix up my solver.
09:02:19 <shachaf> I was thinking the big thing I need to do was VSIDS.
09:02:32 <aaaaaa> shachaf: have you seen more SAT solvers like that to study? I already saw TAOCP 7.2.2.2 solvers...
09:02:42 <int-e> 2017, hmm. Yeah I've probably seen it, glanced at it, balked at the coding style, and gone away. Oh, actually I seem to recall shachaf mentioning it here around the time they started on their own solver.
09:02:46 <shachaf> But the talk the other day said that modern solvers can do as well as VSIDS with a relatively simple move-to-front heuristic.
09:03:16 <shachaf> aaaaaa: Nothing that short.
09:03:34 <aaaaaa> shachaf: maybe a bit longer :)
09:03:38 <shachaf> I read some of the TAOCP solver code too.
09:03:42 <shachaf> SAT13.pdf, I think.
09:03:56 <shachaf> Of course I looked at minisat.
09:04:09 <shachaf> Just think of prefixes that mean "small", add "sat" at the end, and see if you find something.
09:04:19 <shachaf> picosat exists but I don't know much about it.
09:04:35 <shachaf> http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/lect/taocp-sat/knuth/pdf/sat13.pdf is the literate PDF.
09:06:25 <aaaaaa> BTW, is there any good reason to use Knuth's literate style over commented code?
09:07:34 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe if you like explaining your code more than writing it... )
09:08:09 <aaaaaa> int-e: yes, for textbooks, for example. Like TAOCP itself.
09:08:14 <zzo38> aaaaaa: Sometimes, I think. If the purpose is to describe the algorithms or the rules or something like that, I think that it can help; trying to describe it without the code is often not working as well, and just an ordinary program code is not so suitable for describing it.
09:09:12 <aaaaaa> Can't a tool like Doxygen help it?
09:09:42 <shachaf> I like the property of 2SAT that, if you make an incorrect guess, you'll always find that out through unit propagation.
09:09:55 <shachaf> So you only need a stack of size 1.
09:09:58 <int-e> My understanding of literate programming is that you're writing a text document from which a program can be extracted.
09:10:26 <shachaf> String glob matching -- foo*bar*vaz -- also has that property, that you only need to backtrack to the most recent *
09:10:38 <shachaf> Does it happen elsewhere?
09:10:44 <zzo38> Doxygen is for making the documentation of each function and stuff in the program, not for explaining the algorithms, I think.
09:10:58 <int-e> And the emphasis is on the text. I suppose you can use web as a fancier macro language. I haven't seen anybody do it, except Knuth.
09:11:25 <shachaf> I don't like Doxygen-style documentation very much.
09:11:36 <aaaaaa> int-e: yes, somehow, it's not popular at all. Knuth got it wrong?
09:11:38 <shachaf> I'd rather read the source code comments directly in most cases.
09:11:59 <zzo38> I don't like Doxygen much either, actually.
09:12:03 <int-e> shachaf: it's a theme in some classic dynamic programming tasks, like finding the longest increasing subsequence
09:12:25 <int-e> aaaaaa: I don't think he got it wrong.
09:12:38 <int-e> aaaaaa: It seems to have worked brilliantly for himself.
09:12:52 <int-e> But most people aren't Knuth.
09:12:53 <shachaf> Knuth says that thanks to literate programming he's able to write more complicated programs than he would otherwise.
09:13:06 <aaaaaa> int-e: another his tool is TeX, which has immense popularity
09:14:21 <int-e> Well, LaTeX more than plain TeX.
09:14:48 <zzo38> Yes, LaTeX is used much more, although a few people (including myself, and also Knuth) use Plain TeX.
09:15:11 <int-e> Because LaTeX liberates you from having to think about string processing and stuff like catcodes.
09:15:19 <aaaaaa> zzo38: is there any good reason to try plain TeX over LaTeX?
09:15:36 <shachaf> Can you teach me any kittycatcodes?
09:15:58 <int-e> `? procrastination
09:16:00 <HackEso> The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this final funny cat clip on youtube.
09:16:26 <shachaf> I suppose kissat has kittycatcodes.
09:16:36 <zzo38> aaaaaa: Well, I find it less confusing, at least. I think also it is more likely to work in future because it is not going to be changed so much
09:16:39 <int-e> well that one is a literal cat
09:16:57 <int-e> not to be confused with a literate cat
09:17:07 <int-e> or a littering cat
09:17:13 <int-e> or a cat litter
09:17:14 <aaaaaa> zzo38: OK. Any TeX sources to learn from, except from Knuth's website?
09:17:24 <int-e> (too silly?)
09:17:29 <shachaf> You could read the TeXbook presumably.
09:17:37 <aaaaaa> shachaf: yeah, forgot about it
09:18:15 <zzo38> Yes, that is my idea too, is to read the TeXbook.
09:19:51 <int-e> there are also some attempts of reconstruction like https://doi.org/10.1017/S0956796897002840
09:20:32 <int-e> or maybe this copy https://www.rw.cdl.uni-saarland.de/people/heckmann/private/abstracts/neuform.html
09:21:19 <int-e> Though that is on the typesetting end, not on the esolang end of TeX.
09:22:12 <zzo38> My "Scientific Role Playing System" is written with Plain TeX. I also added macros to make cross-references, table of contents, etc. You could look at it to use as the example for your own use, if you want to do, I suppose.
09:22:40 <zzo38> (I also included fonts with unslanted Greek alphabets, in case you need that.)
09:25:30 <aaaaaa> zzo38: URL?
09:26:32 <zzo38> The Fossil repository is at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui You can clone with Fossil or view it in a web browser; select "Files" to view the files.
09:27:25 <zzo38> If a table spans multiple pages, you can write "(Continued on next page)" at the bottom of each page, and repeat the table heading at the top of each page.
09:28:06 <aaaaaa> zzo38: thanks!
09:28:47 <shachaf> zzo38: You should enable TLS for your HTTP server, so that I can see it easily.
09:29:44 <zzo38> Some uses of TeX that have cross references require you to run TeX multiple times, but that is actually unnecessary. While a non-immediate \write in a page will not work unless the page is shipped out, you can use insertions containing marks.
09:31:09 <zzo38> shachaf: I did intend to enable TLS, and may do so later, but right now it isn't.
09:31:35 <shachaf> i,i translation lookaside suffer
09:33:06 <zzo38> I also wrote a style guide for SciRPS; if you like to review and know how to review such a thing, then you might do so to write a complaint of it.
09:33:13 <int-e> three letter supplement
09:34:41 <int-e> totally lousy security
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09:53:22 <zzo38> The list of skills in SciRPS is incomplete, and maybe you might have some more idea what skills to add, too.
10:14:31 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, sadly the web editor only works with ascii files, as I learned back when I tried to edit the whatis database. that's when I added an addwhatis command.
10:17:08 <shachaf> `help addwhatis
10:17:10 <HackEso> ​`addwhatis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:17:17 <shachaf> `cbt addwhatis
10:17:17 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/python3 \ import sys, os, re, getopt \ # allow options for future compatibility \ opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "") \ newd = dict() \ def procnew(arg): \ match = re.fullmatch(r"([^\x00\r\n()]+\([0-9A-Z_a-z]+\))" \ r"(?: ?| - ([^\x00\r\n]*?))\r?\n?", arg) \ if match: \ key, val = match.group(1), match.group(2) \ if key in newd: \ print("addwhatis: duplicate key in input: %r" %
10:17:22 <shachaf> `help edit
10:17:23 <HackEso> ​`edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
10:18:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think hg revert is to revert uncommitted changes, and you revert an earlier committed change with ... dunno. apparently not svn merge, not git revert, so no idea how
10:24:06 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> The main problem is that the talks themselves are recorded, and I don't want my voice in them." => can you ask typed questions even during?
10:28:29 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Just think of prefixes that mean "small", add "sat" at the end, and see if you find something." => suffixes too, like there's probably a "sat'lite"
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11:59:59 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> i,i translation lookaside suffer" lol
12:05:19 <b_jonas> (even though I think "translation lookaside buffer" is such a stupid name, it should just be called "page table cache" or "paging cache". though admittedly Knuth calls it the "translation cache".)
12:06:41 <int-e> Tinkerbell's Lip Service
13:52:43 <fizzie> int-e: Right, there was something along those lines wrong with the web thing, but it's using a framework(tm), and I think I couldn't figure out why exactly it was behaving like that. It's Python/Flask, and the part that's my code *looks* like it should be just UTF-8 everywhere, but of course HTTP has its own thing about encoding negotiation, and none of that seemed to be exposed.
13:53:40 <fizzie> Maybe I should just put a big bold warning up saying "please don't use this interface for files containing non-ASCII text". Or reimplement it.
13:56:39 <fizzie> The "maintains a separate copy, needs manual sync with the repo" model is I think also a little hard to (a) explain (b) grok. Maybe there's something better.
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15:20:37 <fizzie> Heh, not surprised day 13 scored pretty high on the old twistiness. Though not as high as last year: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/twist.html
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15:23:07 <rain1> i like that chart!
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15:25:44 <nakilon> what is this chart?
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15:27:04 <fizzie> The twistiness metric is \frac{\sum_{i=1}^{100} T_2^i}{\sum_{i=1}^{100} T_1^i}.
15:27:15 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79406&oldid=79405 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Syntax */ 51
15:27:44 <fizzie> Or in other words, the total amount of time used by the first 100 people to get two stars, divided by the total amount of time used by the (likely different) first 100 people to get one star.
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15:28:51 <fizzie> So more informally, it's a number >= 1 that measures how much harder part 2 was compared to part 1.
15:30:58 <fizzie> I've also plotted https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.one.html and https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html that just show the leaderboard times (with the thick bar showing the 25..75 range, and the thin rule showing the 1..100 range).
15:31:41 <int-e> fizzie: the thing that troubled me most today was sign errors.
15:31:59 <int-e> t = i (mod m) instead of t = -i (mod m)
15:32:02 <int-e> twice.
15:32:20 <fizzie> I did the "% isn't actually modulo" thing.
15:33:13 <int-e> Oh I did not implement (or reuse) egcd.
15:33:20 <fizzie> (In Go, as in C, it's the remainder from the truncated-towards-zero division.)
15:34:20 <fizzie> I don't know if my solution is as elegant as it could be, but it runs in no appreciable amount of time, so it's fine. Just feel like it's missing a trick somewhere.
15:34:22 <int-e> and I trusted the system to be solvable
15:35:08 <fizzie> I do that as well.
15:37:18 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1176718/ is the heart of my solution (with comments added right now)
15:37:49 <int-e> Bezout meets KISS.
15:38:51 <int-e> Oh and I flipped a sign; for the description to be correct the x + s should be x - s.
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15:39:30 <fizzie> I've got something quite similar except iterative, and I've replaced `lcm a b` with a*b, because all the initial numbers are prime, so all the pairs are coprime.
15:40:16 <LegionMammal978> I'm actually rather surprised that today scored so high on twistyness. I just recognized it as a Chinese Remainder problem and downloaded a preexisting library for it.
15:40:17 <int-e> I didn't look at the input that closely
15:40:23 <int-e> but it makes sense that the ids are prime
15:40:35 <int-e> LegionMammal978: people don't know what that is
15:40:48 <int-e> LegionMammal978: you could see yesterday that people struggle with basic linear algebra
15:41:04 <fizzie> Go doesn't have a gcd/lcm built-in, so.
15:41:25 <int-e> fizzie: sure I might look more closely at the list then and do the same
15:42:56 <LegionMammal978> I will admit, though, that when I saw the second part of day 11 I just threw my hands up in defeat due to the silly CA neighborhood rules.
15:44:51 <fizzie> Couldn't find a library to do that?-)
15:45:14 <int-e> fizzie: the proper solution involves a modular inverse. When a and b are coprime, then r (mod a) and s (mod b) combine into r + a*(s-r)*(a^-1 (mod b)) (mod ab), noting that thanks to the multiplication by a, the (mod b) gets lifted to something (mod ab).
15:45:49 <fizzie> It was a bit wonky, but so was the CA for 2019 day 24 part 2.
15:46:11 <LegionMammal978> fizzie: In fact, I did use a library for the first part, but it ended up being very slow due to the library's poor documentation.
15:46:36 <int-e> but since all ids were small the simple (though not quite naive) approach won the day
15:47:04 <int-e> modular inverses can be computed using the extended euclidean algorithm, of course.
15:47:32 <int-e> And indeed there must be libraries for this.
15:50:07 <int-e> GP/PARI has this: chinese(Mod(1,5), Mod(6,21)) = Mod(6, 105)
15:50:18 <fizzie> int-e: Right, makes sense. I do in fact have a Go `func modinv(a, m int64) int64` in 2019 day 22 solutions.
15:50:52 <fizzie> (And `func egcd(a, b int64) (g, x, y int64)` as well.)
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15:52:33 <int-e> my personal 'part 1 rank' / 'part 2 rank' is 8.05
15:52:37 <int-e> today
15:54:06 <int-e> (that's a really weird metric)
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15:58:45 <nakilon> why not heat map
15:59:00 <nakilon> would be one chart instead of 20
16:03:23 <fizzie> Instead of 25.
16:04:12 <fizzie> And I think it's easier to see values from a bar chart than judge shades in a heat map.
16:05:01 <fizzie> Especially for the other one that shows four values per day.
16:06:01 <nakilon> with 25 charts where values are grouped you are limited to compare years within a task number and can't easily compare tasks within a year
16:06:27 <fizzie> Well, that's what I plotted it for, really.
16:06:58 <nakilon> you would easily see both views in case of heat map
16:07:34 <nakilon> color adds the third dimension
16:08:34 <fizzie> Like I said, I think it's easier to read values from an axis than from a shade.
16:09:03 <nakilon> in case of 25 charts there is tautology because you are already able to see which of 5 bars is 1st and which is 2nd, etc. and colors have no function so it's effectively black and white
16:09:25 <fizzie> ...and not to repeat myself, but the other chart needs to show four values per day.
16:09:37 <fizzie> Well, not "needs to", but "wants to".
16:10:13 <fizzie> (Maybe that other chart should be one of those violin plots, though, those are so fancy.)
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16:11:44 <nakilon> I hate fireworks
16:12:01 <nakilon> they happen every evening now but when I get up and come to the window they end already
16:12:23 <nakilon> they should work in such way that there are 1-2 shots and then pause to let people come to windows
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16:19:03 <kmc> no they should just go off continuously for 48 hours
16:19:06 <kmc> then there's no missing them
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16:21:37 <myname> https://i.redd.it/l6qsnijz7w461.png
16:23:07 <fizzie> Heh. It's even rather more clear by now.
16:23:15 <fizzie> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=US&q=chinese%20remainder%20theorem
16:24:03 <fizzie> Or https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=chinese%20remainder%20theorem worldwide, where it hasn't flattened down so much, presumably thanks to timezones.
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16:24:23 <int-e> you're saying AoC has an impact?
16:24:33 <int-e> cute
16:24:36 <fizzie> "Related queries": advent of code, advent of code day 13, advent of code 2020 day 13, wolfram alpha.
16:25:55 <int-e> `? crt
16:25:57 <HackEso> crt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:26:08 <fizzie> The cathode ray theorem.
16:26:32 <fizzie> Or the Chinese remainder tube.
16:44:19 <arseniiv> <nakilon> they happen every evening now but when I get up and come to the window they end already => oh they do! (when they are)
16:45:40 <arseniiv> also they tend to appear hidden by trees or in places where you can’t see from your windows
16:49:09 <fizzie> By popular demand (N=1): https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/twist.heat.html
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17:06:10 <nakilon> I'm almost done with my lang (done with a part of implementing, testing and documeting the Befunge's part) -- now the main instruction left and I can start coding in it
17:07:16 <nakilon> fizzie yay!
17:09:28 <nakilon> didn't know about Vega -- I'll try it next time I chart anything
17:10:38 <nakilon> I used Chart.js
17:42:40 <fizzie> I learned of Altair (basically, the Python API for Vega/Vega-Lite) from fiddling with Google Colab things, and it seemed okay.
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18:53:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: this is the new fungeoid that's like befunge but without self-modifying code?
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19:10:34 <nakilon> emmmm
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19:11:54 <nakilon> b_jonas it will be with random read access to the stack instead of reading/writing to the program space
19:12:23 <nakilon> I guess I'll need to clarify the "read" word everywhere, forgot about that
19:12:42 <nakilon> and with Rational data type instead of byte or 32bit
19:13:35 <nakilon> so you can put any number to the stack
19:34:55 <b_jonas> nakilon: I see. will you add random access from the bottom so that the coder doesn't have to count stack elements and adjust addresses? or some storage other than the stack, for even more convenience?
19:51:06 <nakilon> bottom is kind of ephemeral in funge
19:51:11 <nakilon> it's an eternal source of zeros
19:51:57 <nakilon> in my opinion coder should not think there is a bottom
19:53:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: ok, how about some other place of storage besides the stack then?
19:53:30 <nakilon> specification is now done
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19:53:59 <nakilon> b_jonas I'll see if it's needed, I don't reject the idea of the second stack yet
19:54:10 <nakilon> I'll see on practice if I feel that I need it
19:54:24 <b_jonas> is the specification online? linked from https://esolangs.org/wiki/ or something?
19:54:44 <nakilon> it's here https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel
19:55:10 <nakilon> I'll move to wiki later in somewhat different form, with examples, etc.
19:55:24 <b_jonas> ok
19:55:25 <nakilon> *copy to wiki
19:56:42 <b_jonas> "Lines with no non-space characters at the end of the source file are trimmed." => ooh, that will be a fun corner case when you try to jump over that line with a trampoline
19:57:36 <b_jonas> "exit with code taken from the stack
19:57:39 <b_jonas> If the value isn't integer and isn't within 0..255 the error is raised" => hmm....
19:58:19 <b_jonas> I don't usually like silencing errors, but for exit converting the exit status silently is one of the few cases that I would support. not that it matters much since the program will exit either way.
20:00:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: um, what kind of arithmetic exactly do the / and % operations do, if these are rational numbers?
20:01:59 <b_jonas> nakilon: um, can this only do reads from deep in the stack, not writes?
20:02:59 <b_jonas> I do understand that it's technically Turing-complete with just deep reads, but it's much harder to write programs for it that way, especially efficient practical ones
20:04:02 <b_jonas> because you can't discard information from the stack, ever, if there's more than a few bits above it that you have to keep
20:04:49 <b_jonas> or... maybe you can somehow with arbitrary precision integers. is there a way to swap the top two elements with these instructions, like with - or something?
20:05:30 <b_jonas> there's a backslash instruction. so maybe you can encode a full stack to just the top element, but it's definitely not a practical way to write programs, it's more like the kind of torture that ais523 likes.
20:12:37 <nakilon> # that will be a fun corner case when you try to jump over that line with a trampoline
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20:12:48 <nakilon> thanks, I'll cover it here probably https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/3bbc664a04e8267e7a4780b0aff0bd483a0cf0ec/test.rb#L68
20:14:58 <nakilon> b_jonas the trouble will be for those who got used to Befunge if they don't push 0 before exit and if they care about the exit code
20:15:38 <nakilon> but if they don't care it's just an exit code, no "error message" or "backtrace" is designed
20:15:57 <nakilon> nor it is for Befunge I guess
20:17:03 <nakilon> the / % arithmetics are like in Ruby
20:17:06 <nakilon> irb(main):001:0> 2r / 3
20:17:06 <nakilon> => (2/3)
20:17:06 <nakilon> irb(main):002:0> 2r / 3 * 6
20:17:06 <nakilon> => (4/1)
20:17:33 <nakilon> irb(main):003:0> 2r/3 + 4r/5
20:17:33 <nakilon> => (22/15)
20:18:42 <nakilon> in case of Befunge with the integer math by default the division for negative numbers had to clarify in which side to round
20:18:53 <nakilon> in case of Rational there is no rounding, nothing to worry about
20:22:53 <nakilon> b_jonas I guess I understood your point, the inability to push deeper of from the other side may suck
20:23:11 <nakilon> I'm thinking now about positional swap, lol
20:23:26 <nakilon> "swap top value with Nth"
20:24:32 <nakilon> either something like that or at least defining the bottom of the stack and push to the bottom
20:37:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: what does % do then? or how do you compute the floor of a number?
20:37:37 <b_jonas> no wait, make that easier. how do you compute the floor of a positive number?
20:40:03 <nakilon> actually I guess the trimming corner case was already covered in '"' test but I'll make there too to be sure
20:41:40 <nakilon> irb(main):001:0> (5r/3) % 1
20:41:40 <nakilon> => (2/3)
20:41:40 <nakilon> you mean this?
20:43:06 <nakilon> $ echo "53/1%.@" | ./bin/rasel
20:43:06 <nakilon> 0.6666666666666666
20:44:08 <nakilon> n$ echo "83/:1%-.@" | ./bin/rasel
20:44:09 <nakilon> 2
20:47:05 <b_jonas> ok, so the % computes one of the many remainder or modulus operations, and you can use that to compute the floor. good.
20:47:12 <b_jonas> then at least the arithmetic works
20:47:21 <nakilon> ..D
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21:27:02 <nakilon> "Of course, your expense report is much larger."
21:27:12 <nakilon> adventofcode makes me asd
21:27:16 <nakilon> *sad
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21:30:28 <esowiki> [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79412&oldid=79411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Truth-machine */ Cats
21:31:52 <shachaf> b_jonas: I agree, it's a silly name.
21:33:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79413&oldid=79388 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* S */ +[[Stu]]
21:34:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79414&oldid=79398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Languages */ +[[Stu]]
21:36:29 <esowiki> [[Stue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79415&oldid=9180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+145) cats
21:38:40 <esowiki> [[Voxvy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79416&oldid=79409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Languages included */ Add link to [[Stu]] (HZOP/RFN/etc. all exist, but they are off-wiki)
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21:41:10 <nakilon> I'm thinking if _ and | are really needed as two instructions
21:41:44 <nakilon> it can be one instruction that works as nop() if true and as reverse() if false
21:48:22 <b_jonas> nakilon: but isn't a conditional reversing direction inconvenient in befunge because you need a trampoline to really use it?
21:48:49 <b_jonas> a befunge trampoline
21:49:19 <nakilon> funge languages are inconvinient by nature ..D
21:49:46 <myname> i think you misspelled awesome
21:50:21 <nakilon> I can't tell it's always a free spot on both sides of | or _ -- you often need to insert a line and place <>v^ right on the exit from this instruction
21:51:43 <nakilon> s/can't tell/won't say
21:51:56 <fizzie> IME, | and _ are quite convenient because often you need to $ a number, and you know for sure whether it's zero or non-zero, so you often get to use _ or | to both change direction and discard a number with one instruction.
21:52:22 <fizzie> (I call that a "discard-if".)
21:53:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but in this language they distinguish between negative and nonnegative, or something like that, not zero and nonzero
21:53:40 <fizzie> I haven't been following that.
21:54:11 <b_jonas> positive vs nonpositive apparently
21:54:32 <b_jonas> north or west for positive
21:54:36 <b_jonas> south or east for nonpositive
22:09:10 <nakilon> yep, to deprecate the "greater than" conditional instruction I made these non-symmetrical around zero
22:10:40 <nakilon> to convert "if > 0" to "if >= 0" just add 1 (won't work for float I guess though)
22:12:57 <nakilon> and if you do "0\-1+" it will work like "!" before conditions
22:13:11 <nakilon> maybe there are shorter replacements
22:13:39 <nakilon> these optimizations would depend on the exact algorithm you need
22:17:30 <b_jonas> int-e: re modular inverse: yes, but the numbers are so small that you don't need any of the fast ways to compute it. the largest bus period I have in the live example file is 509, in the examples it's 1889, and there's an easy way to compute the modular inverse in a loop with as many iterations as the modulus
22:18:54 <b_jonas> and the moduluses are relative primes too, though I guess you needn't know that in advance
22:19:58 <b_jonas> mind you, there's also an easy way to compute the gcd in a loop with as many steps as one of the moduluses
22:21:32 <b_jonas> also all the calculation easily fits in 64-bit integers
22:28:46 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it's intentional that all integer-y AoC problems fit in 56-bit integers.
22:29:01 <fizzie> For those poor saps on languages with just a double-precision float.
22:30:36 <b_jonas> ah, in doubles, not only in 64-bit ints? possible
22:32:52 <fizzie> The largest answer I've got in 2019 results is in the order of 2^48, though of course that doesn't mean no intermediate quantities were larger.
22:54:18 <nakilon> hmmmm, adapting 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@' to a single conditional '?' is tricky
23:15:40 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79417&oldid=78304 * Baguette * (+4) Made the script call the Ruby env with /usr/bin/env, rather than an absolute path
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2020-12-14
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00:44:14 <esowiki> [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79418&oldid=79412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Infinite cat program */ Until EOF
00:45:22 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79419&oldid=79417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Trivial brainfuck substitution interpreter */ Cat
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01:16:44 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79420&oldid=74492 * Unl256 * (+97) /* External resources */
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02:13:47 <nakilon> That's the right answer! You are one gold star closer to saving your vacation. [Continue to Part Two]
02:14:46 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/n7bd/slim
02:15:02 <nakilon> 2020 day 1 is solved in RASEL ..)
02:15:37 <b_jonas> nakilon: ok, although technically it only counts as solving in a new language if the language is older than the task specification
02:15:58 <b_jonas> but it's a good start
02:18:49 <nakilon> the lack of '+' and '*' obviously result in more instructions used
02:19:28 <nakilon> but it's interesting how non-trivial it becomes, there are different approaches to the same thing instead of one straight forward
02:20:51 <nakilon> for example, to compare the number with 2020, in Befunge I would build 2020 first as 59*:*5-, then -, then I already can call _ or |
02:22:43 <nakilon> but here I had to find another approach, and I'm not if it's optimal but I added 5 (05--), then divided by 45 twice (5/5/9/9/) -- after that if the number was 2020 the result should be exactly 1
02:23:16 <nakilon> how do I check if it's 1? I subtract 1 check if it's positive, then negate and check if it's positive again
02:23:38 <nakilon> that's far more complex than in Befunge but a good playground for golfing ..D
02:24:19 <b_jonas> I should write up my favorite programming practice tasks somewhere so I can just link to them. I know I've told them in chat often, but that's chat.
02:26:10 <b_jonas> of course you probably already know some of the stock ones, like print hello world, print the first 100 prime numbers, fizzbuzz, etc
02:27:06 <nakilon> does anyone have the first task solution in Befunge? I would like to compare the size
02:28:32 <b_jonas> that's quite specific. if fizzie doesn't have it then probably nobody does.
02:30:59 <fizzie> I haven't been doing Befunge. I kind of thought about it, though. Maybe I should.
03:01:06 <fizzie> Here's a quickly thrown together Befunge-98 version of 2020 day 1 part 1. It's not necessarily going to be *good* Befunge-98, mind you: http://ix.io/2HXh
03:01:50 <fizzie> Very much in the "use playfield cells as variables" style.
03:10:50 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79421&oldid=79080 * Pppery * (-2) /* Implementations */ "An interpreter has been implemented in perl "
03:16:20 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79422&oldid=79421 * Pppery * (-94) /* Examples */
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03:52:00 <nakilon> fizzie where is 2020?
03:54:48 <nakilon> ah I see, '-:*5-
03:55:57 <fizzie> Yep.
03:56:21 <nakilon> you wrote it several times faster than I would do that
03:56:33 <nakilon> in just 30 minutes
03:57:26 <fizzie> I spent at least half of that trying to find a browser-friendly Befunge-98 debugger, because I'm very lacking of a locally installed Befunge development environment at the moment.
03:58:38 <Arcorann> How do we add input
03:58:55 <fizzie> For the record, landed on https://misc.purkka.codes/jsfunge-98/befunge98.html which doesn't do input, so I had to debug it with a 2a*a*a*1fp2a*2fp3 in place of the input loop to preload 2000, 20 as my expense report.
03:59:19 <fizzie> Then ran it on cfunge locally on my AoC puzzle input; but cfunge isn't that great for debugging.
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04:00:54 <fizzie> I did in fact get it almost right on the first try without the debugger, just had 00g where I needed a fg00gfg, i.e., it was printing the product of the *indices* of the matching values, not the product of the matching values.
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04:24:33 <int-e> b_jonas: I knew that and in fact I didn't implement or use modular inverses in my solution... but we meandered to the question of how to do it efficiently
04:24:47 <int-e> for big numbers
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06:40:27 <b_jonas> also it looks from the world map like we'll have to leave this island in a few days for some reason, even though the flavor text suggested that this is our destination island
06:40:52 <Arcorann> We were diverted to another island due to the storm, remember?
06:51:58 <int-e> totally blown off course
06:52:10 <b_jonas> oh
06:52:27 <b_jonas> then I didn't follow the flavor enough
07:11:04 <int-e> maybe in the end the path will crisscross all around the map and spell out an obscenity
07:11:19 <int-e> or look like a penis
07:12:10 <int-e> https://dailyhive.com/mapped/penis-flight-russia
07:31:57 <zzo38> Have you made implementations with bug for bug compatibility of complex programs?
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07:34:40 <int-e> Intel famously did with the A20 line.
07:35:01 <int-e> . o O ( best abuse of keyboard controller )
07:36:40 <zzo38> Yes, I know that there are many that did, but I mean to ask how many people on here have done.
07:38:25 <int-e> Oh actually I contributed a patch to npiet once that emulates an implementation bug in the (a?) perl interpreter, because one of the programs (towers of hanoi) that I had relied on that.
07:38:31 <int-e> So... I suppose the answer is yes.
07:39:19 <zzo38> OK. What specific bug is that?
07:40:54 <int-e> I forgot. Something with positioning after sliding through white areas.
07:41:36 <int-e> This was over 14 years ago.
07:57:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure if I have a good example for that. I've reintroduced bugs to my own code to be able to easily compare the outputs to see if other changes have broken something. And I've worked around bugs in third-party software a lot of times. But I don't think I deliberately tried to add an interesting bug to my code to reproduce a bug in a third-party code. Copied typos in names to match
07:57:54 <b_jonas> identifiers or filenames, sure, but not for interesting logic bugs.
08:00:17 <shachaf> Man, everything I hear about the new Apple CPUs sounds unreasonably good.
08:00:20 <shachaf> Too bad it's Apple.
08:07:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Do they have their own instruction set or implement an existing instruction set?
08:07:51 <shachaf> It's ARM.
08:10:13 <zzo38> One of my project is working on bug for bug compatibility, by testing various strange things in the original software to see what happens, and then implementing the program to do the same thing. (This also means that the new program can also serve as documentation for the original program too, I suppose, although that isn't quite the intention.) Some people who write emulators have probably done similar things too.
08:13:58 <int-e> a can of worms
08:14:58 <zzo38> There is thing also when changing existing programs though, to try to maintain compatibility (such as the "cannot #PUT on bottom row" bug in ZZT; some variants maintain that bug, while some variants remove that bug; I have maintained it but added a per-board option in the extended world format which can remove that bug)
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09:11:56 <zzo38> The documentation for the "goto" statement in Hero Mesh says "Very structured, very object oriented. If you don't like it, don't use it." However, it is needed for any kind of loops (except ForEachObjAt loops); there is no "while" command.
09:17:24 <Taneb> Perhaps you could use a macro library or similar that implements while loops in terms of goto, and not use goto directly?
09:17:42 <Taneb> I'm not familiar with Hero Mesh
09:19:25 <zzo38> Hero Mesh doesn't have macros. (However, Free Hero Mesh does have macros, and it also has while loops)
09:20:28 <zzo38> (Although, anything converted from Hero Mesh will not use the macros or while loops, of course.)
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12:07:28 <nakilon> I woke up and realised that
12:07:57 <nakilon> to check if the value is zero you don't have to check if it's positive, negate and then check again
12:08:24 <nakilon> you can square it and then check
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12:08:51 <FastestCoderOnEa> Hi
12:09:48 <FastestCoderOnEa> Is this the correct place to ask for feedback on new esolang ideas?
12:10:13 <rain1> yes
12:10:22 <rain1> you can use the wiki too to write it up
12:10:30 <FastestCoderOnEa> Cool,
12:11:00 <FastestCoderOnEa> I think about creating a pointer based language, where the syntax would look like this.
12:11:12 <FastestCoderOnEa> # average ####### l 0 0 ## ↑ len ##↺ ↑ ↑ <= ## ↑ ↑ at ## ↑ ↑ += ##\ ↑ ↑ / #################
12:11:27 <FastestCoderOnEa> # average ####### l 0 0 ## ↑ len ##↺ ↑ ↑ <= ## ↑ ↑ at ## ↑ ↑ += ##\ ↑ ↑ / #################
12:11:43 <FastestCoderOnEa> Sorry formatting is bad.
12:11:52 <FastestCoderOnEa> How can I format like code?
12:13:01