00:13:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
01:08:37 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
01:11:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0
01:15:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:17:22 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
01:17:40 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
01:40:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:40:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:45:24 -!- none30 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:50:08 -!- none30 has joined.
02:21:09 <b_jonas> yeah. someone grab that password in the morning or I'll change it tomorrow evening.
02:23:36 <fizzie> With the randomly sprinkled capital letters, some parts of the US constitution sound like extracts from a fantasy RPG.
02:23:40 <fizzie> "The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
02:23:46 <fizzie> I'm thinking specifically of that "Corruption of Blood" part.
02:24:28 -!- earend1 has joined.
02:46:58 <kmc> is it random or is it all nouns, German style?
02:49:04 <kmc> it looks like most nouns, but I notice that "defence" is not capitalized in the preamble
02:58:21 <fizzie> Sure, it's not random. But I don't think it's quite all nouns either. Not all the instances of "time" are capitalized, but some are. "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected -- shall have been encreased during such time --".
02:59:23 <fizzie> So I guess it's about how the word is used in the sentence. It does look pretty German.
03:04:37 <kmc> interesting
03:20:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
03:27:06 <int-e> okay, Hiding Spot is cute.
03:30:26 <int-e> shachaf: I got Pipe Push as well. That one feels a bit more Sokoban-like, but has a (literal) twist.
03:31:32 <int-e> and it has the advantage of working under Linux
03:32:16 <int-e> Anyway, made it up to 609 in the former... that one will require some more thought.
03:32:22 <shachaf> The other one worked fine for me.
03:32:33 <shachaf> I guess I used Steam and it used some sort of Wine thing to run it.
03:32:55 <shachaf> Is 609 the level with the long corridor and the three or four stools?
03:37:36 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/609.png
03:37:47 <int-e> (I made a screenshot before booting to Linux ;)
03:37:55 <int-e> Oh and I didn't try it in steam
03:40:13 <shachaf> Yes, that's the one I stopped on too.
03:40:14 <int-e> I think of them as (small) tables. They're cute.
03:40:40 <shachaf> Yes, they're more table-like.
03:43:28 <int-e> I tried the itch download in plain wine and it didn't work there, but who cares. All it means is I won't play it on a whim.
03:47:43 <int-e> Oh level 101 was hard too :P
03:56:54 <int-e> the very first one? which drops you into the game with no objective?
03:58:18 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I got a clue from the name.
03:58:24 <shachaf> Or from my own inclinations in life.
03:59:54 <int-e> it took me a while to realize that the game name may be relevant
04:00:48 <int-e> not ages, 5 minutes maybe? but long enough to feel a little bit stuck
04:31:10 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:32:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
04:35:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
04:39:34 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
04:58:39 -!- arseniiv has joined.
05:31:35 <int-e> oh I guess AoC is live
05:31:36 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:37:32 -!- arseniiv has joined.
05:56:38 -!- kkd has changed nick to memxor.
05:56:55 -!- memxor has changed nick to kkd.
06:19:29 <shachaf> Does every vector space finally have a basis?
06:20:25 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
06:21:09 <int-e> `slwd aoc//s/2019/2020/
06:21:11 <HackEso> aoc//Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
06:31:44 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
06:41:48 <int-e> `grwp suspect|suspicious
06:41:58 <int-e> `grwp suspect\|suspicious
06:41:59 <HackEso> esoterra:Esoterra is the planet of Esoterrans, also known as Esolangers. The proof of its existence is non-constructive, although some suspect that it is in fact Earth. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ snow:Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofo
06:42:30 <int-e> `2 grwp suspect\|suspicious
06:42:58 <int-e> `2 grwp suspect\\\|suspicious
06:42:59 <HackEso> 2/2:rofoam on it. \ the usual suspect:There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up. \ usual suspect:There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up.
06:47:08 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:47:31 -!- xelxebar has joined.
06:55:43 <HackEso> : would be the set of rational numbers, if the Unicode Consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ. \ :The final frontier. \ !:! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems. \ *:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ @:@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour. \ \:\ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash. \ ^:^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the
07:00:21 <int-e> huh. 'Because of an outage during the day 1 puzzle unlock, day 1 is worth no points.'
07:03:14 <b_jonas> “With the randomly sprinkled capital letters, some parts of the US constitution sound like extracts from a fantasy RPG. […] Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted. […] I used Steam and it used some sort of Wine thing to run it.”
07:05:02 * delta23 screams vapourwaves on an irc client running on an OS made out of only the finest vapour
07:05:36 <int-e> delta23: you sound esoteric
07:12:21 -!- kkd has changed nick to agsdyugau.
07:12:28 -!- tromp has joined.
07:12:39 -!- agsdyugau has changed nick to kkd.
07:59:50 -!- TheLie has joined.
08:26:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:45:31 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:45:56 -!- xelxebar has joined.
08:57:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:23:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:24:00 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:24:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:24:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:24:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:39:56 <zzo38> I think that joke languages that don't work should not belong in the "Languages" category, although someone added both categories for "NOT A PROGRAM" and I think that is wrong. Maybe it might be appropriate for some things, but for most it is not appropriate to put both. (Even a joke language that does work might not belong in both, but then it can be more debated, I suppose.)
09:44:58 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:17:21 <rain1> https://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/November2020.html the didn't give me a * but I did answer the * part too
10:41:19 <int-e> rain1: try sending them another mail... worked for me
10:42:39 * int-e is still trying to figure out how to pack two solutions into a single mail and have the new Ponder manager notice
10:44:03 <int-e> Probably the solution is to put both solutions right at the top of the mail and only then write an explanation (which I suspect isn't read anyway).
10:44:35 <int-e> (but I'm usually happy to write an explanation up for my own benefit)
10:54:32 <rain1> i thought maybe I got it wrong
10:54:58 <int-e> I /think/ they reply if they find a mistake.
11:00:01 <int-e> I'm still wondering what their intended solutions for the bonus part looked like... it can easily be done in less than 20 steps.
11:05:23 <int-e> Btw I found the December problem quite difficult to parse.
11:23:13 -!- TheLie has joined.
11:24:12 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:33:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:45:41 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:30:18 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:41:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:11:31 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:14:13 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
13:15:41 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:25:55 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79061&oldid=58681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Complexity class */ ln
14:25:56 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:52:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:09:56 -!- rain1 has joined.
15:52:45 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:46:58 -!- LKoen has joined.
17:59:16 -!- TheLie has joined.
18:11:13 <b_jonas> nobody set the new password?
18:12:02 <b_jonas> `learn The password of the month is wake these token brings
18:12:07 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is wake these token brings
18:12:13 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
18:25:52 -!- arseniiv has joined.
18:45:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
19:08:01 <olsner> now I'm curious what last month's password was
19:16:13 <HackEso> /hackenv/wisdom/password//The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0
19:25:31 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:26:42 -!- imode has joined.
19:53:32 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:14:51 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:15:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
20:15:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
20:15:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
20:59:28 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
21:16:19 -!- MDude has joined.
21:19:58 <esowiki> [[Template:ItalicTitle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79062&oldid=78247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) n
21:40:46 <fizzie> int-e: It's AoC time of the year again.
21:44:35 <zzo38> I have a idea of Magic: the Gathering which is: {?} World Enchantment ;; When ~ enters the battlefield or dies, target player draws a card. ;; Creatures attacking players with no cards in their hand have -1/-1.
22:10:15 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:11:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:11:40 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:28:02 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:42:36 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:44:43 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
22:58:26 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
22:58:26 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
23:32:48 -!- tromp_ has joined.
23:34:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:32:42 <zzo38> Do you like this? Do you suggest a name and mana cost?
00:32:48 <zzo38> (Or other changes?)
00:38:19 <esowiki> [[BAM128]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79063&oldid=79030 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Print Numbers from 0 to 127 */ knit
00:39:15 <shachaf> Isn't World Enchantment deprecated?
00:41:41 <int-e> fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-01.html#lY
00:42:02 <zzo38> It is still fully supported, and I will still use it in custom cards.
00:42:37 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, I missed that.
00:43:40 <fizzie> I'm half-expecting day 2 to have some sort of vaguely esolang-y recurring theme again.
00:43:43 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
00:47:03 * int-e is wondering how the payment for the first day problem is supposed to work
00:47:38 <int-e> "look at this poor guy doing his own expenses, he must be completely out of luck, here, have a gold starfish"
00:48:07 <int-e> and then there's the matter of researching your destination when traveling...
00:48:19 <int-e> I feel that the story is kind of weak this year :P
00:48:33 <fizzie> Well, maybe it'll have a twist.
00:49:19 <int-e> Or maybe this is the travel preparation? Hmm. Maybe.
00:50:29 <fizzie> Hmm. I was pretty sure I had been using my GitHub account to log in to this thing, but now that I did, I can only see the two stars from 2020, and 4 from 2017 somehow. (Not sure if I just abandoned it in 2017.)
00:50:39 <fizzie> Maybe I used the Google account instead, after all.
00:51:54 <fizzie> Yeah, that one has 50 stars from 2019. Hmm. Can't decide which one to stick with.
00:53:22 <fizzie> Maybe I'll stick with the Google account, it's got some actual points from day 10 of 2019 when I was accidentally awake at 5am and did it real-time.
00:53:36 <int-e> I totally overengineered the first day solutions.
00:54:28 <int-e> (I wrote the first program before downloading the input and seeing that it was only 200 lines.)
00:54:33 <fizzie> I didn't, but I spent time refactoring my 2019 Go repository to better fit multiple years in the same repo.
00:55:07 <int-e> 2019 didn't have a repo.
00:55:31 <int-e> 2020 does, if I keep up committing
00:55:41 <fizzie> I had three for 2019. ;)
00:55:58 <int-e> two commits so far: 2 stars/add .gitignore
00:56:25 <int-e> I copied a lot of code around in 2019, that is a form of versioning, right?
00:57:50 <fizzie> I had one with super-scrappy Python solutions but with ridiculously extensive (Markdown) notes about the problems and solutions; the Go one, which did a little bit of software-engineering-y stuff like unit tests for everything (well, almost); and the third one for that Processing.js thing, but I only did two days there.
00:57:57 <int-e> https://paste.debian.net/1175185/
00:59:04 <int-e> (before day 7, the interpreter was not even a separate module)
01:00:25 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2Gd8 -- kinda equivalent
01:00:49 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79064&oldid=63412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External links */ unimplemented (please correct if wrong)
01:01:19 -!- shinh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:01:25 <int-e> And the day 25 version is different because I added some ad-hoc tracing... I don't even remember why :)
01:01:40 <fizzie> (log1 = log --oneline --decorate=full --graph)
01:02:34 <fizzie> My day 25 change seems to have been to add an `ascii` IO mode so I could play the adventure game "manually".
01:02:43 <int-e> https://paste.debian.net/1175186/
01:03:13 <int-e> I could do that without modifying the compiler... thanks to lazy evaluation I think
01:03:48 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2Gd9 -- in the best Python style of "just stick some string in there instead of the expected type of object".
01:03:56 <int-e> And I had abbreviations for n,e,s,w,t=take,d=drop.
01:04:20 <fizzie> The queue.Queue in there was for running those multithreaded intcode things actually multithreaded, I think. :)
01:05:56 <int-e> (map (fromIntegral . ord) (unlines ts)) <-- "ASCII mode"
01:07:25 <fizzie> Someone's starred the fungot repo 21 days ago. :)
01:07:25 <fungot> fizzie: he knew they had galloped into ephebe. he should be killed. there's something honest about slaves and whips. well... i'm just going out,' said agnes.
01:07:37 <fizzie> fungot: That's a little harsh, don't you think?
01:07:37 <fungot> fizzie: " inadvisably, sir." vimes relaxed a bit,' it said. " you know you said it would help if you think of me
01:07:47 <int-e> The tracing was for the weight comparisons.
01:08:54 <int-e> So I could see which numbers were compared, and determine individual weights and target weight
01:09:01 <fizzie> My day 25 solution just brute-forces the door by doing itertools.combinations(items, size) and spamming drop/take as required.
01:09:49 <int-e> Yeah I never did that :)
01:10:52 <int-e> But I don't recall how I found the relevant locations... quite possibly I traced *all* SLT instructions at some point
01:10:53 <fizzie> "Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about ideal-disco?"
01:11:16 <fizzie> (I'm considering pushing the 2019 solutions online now that 2020 has rolled around.)
01:11:35 <int-e> I'm not sure what github was thinking when they added those suggestions.
01:12:10 <fizzie> Probably just to show they're not so stodgy and serious.
01:12:52 <int-e> Imagine just taking that suggestion whenever you create a new repo...
01:13:29 <int-e> I guess it's not my kind of humor.
01:13:41 <int-e> memorability is important, brevity is not
01:14:01 <int-e> (you can always check the thing out under a shorter name)
01:14:08 <fizzie> Huh. I've got uncommitted changes in the Python repo.
01:14:36 <fizzie> They seem to be all just going from 'foo {} bar'.format(baz) to f'foo {baz} bar' though.
01:20:56 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/aoc-py/blob/main/readme.md -- no idea why I wrote all of that, there's nothing particularly clever about any of the solutions.
01:22:18 <esowiki> [[Brainstuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79065&oldid=34524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* External resources */ ctatt
01:22:43 <esowiki> [[Brainstuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79066&oldid=79065 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat
01:25:46 <int-e> "These puzzles are getting to be Intcode-related in name only."
01:28:10 <int-e> oh right, I remember comparing maps for day 25
01:28:31 <int-e> (the mazes were random)
01:29:42 -!- shinh has joined.
01:31:49 <myname> so nobody did write an intcode interpreter in intcode yet?
01:32:09 <fizzie> I think interest in Intcode kind of petered out post-AoC.
01:32:55 <myname> yeah it's not that interesting
01:32:56 <fizzie> I remember I was writing annotated disassembly of the puzzle Intcode programs, with the intent of maybe adding them to the article (at least as links), but probably gave up.
01:33:33 <int-e> fizzie: Oh I actually finished a disassembly of mine (the day 25 one).
01:33:49 <int-e> I'm sure I shared it back then
01:34:13 <fizzie> Probably. I think we also argued a bit about the best conventions for Intcode assembly, but I didn't finish (or even really start) the assembler.
01:34:49 <int-e> I think in the end it's too normal.
01:36:34 <fizzie> Looks like I've actually finished commenting the disassembled versions of days 5, 7 and 13, but did not commit them.
01:36:54 <fizzie> Day 13 was that breakout clone.
01:37:50 <int-e> Oh I actually automated that one it seems.
01:38:40 <int-e> which is probably the only sane thing to do seeing that the panel has size 1.
01:38:57 <Arcorann> Did you see the creator's compiler?
01:39:18 <Arcorann> https://github.com/topaz/aoc2019-intcode
01:40:16 <int-e> I did figure out the calling convention though, and that it supports function pointers
01:40:55 <Arcorann> I remember reverse-engineering the square-in-the-beam code
01:41:07 <int-e> (see notes in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/dis.txt near the top)
01:42:28 <fizzie> Looks like the only instructions my proposed syntax has matching are add/mul/in/out; I used jnz/jz/setlt/seteq/setb/halt where they have jt/jf/lt/eq/rbo/hlt.
01:42:34 <fizzie> 'rbo' is a curious choice.
01:42:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:42:46 <fizzie> "Reset Base Offset"? I'unno.
01:43:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
01:44:14 <int-e> the register was called "relative base", right
01:44:18 <fizzie> Right, it had some logic like that.
01:44:23 <int-e> so that's "relative base offset"
01:44:39 <int-e> (that's my guess at least)
01:45:08 <int-e> they don't seem to be a fan of adding verbs like "set" to the mnemonic
01:45:36 <fizzie> Aw, the Arecibo telescope collapsed completely now.
01:45:50 <Arcorann> I had add/mul/inp/out/jnz/jez/clt/ceq/srb in the comments of my debugger
01:46:00 <Arcorann> I guess I wanted everything to be 3 characters
01:46:36 <int-e> Arcorann: my choices are in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Intcode, because I wrote the "Proposed Assembly Syntax" section
01:48:04 <fizzie> I was planning to implement the syntax http://ix.io/25xa but didn't.
01:48:27 <fizzie> It used `*x` for mode 0, a naked `x` for mode 1 and the same `@x` for mode 2.
01:48:27 <int-e> hmm, actually that's a surprisingly low level language
01:48:43 <fizzie> Somehow @ makes a lot of sense for the relative addressing mode.
01:49:16 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:54:04 <int-e> Oh apparently I used STOP for HALT when preparing that disassembly... oh well.
01:54:55 <int-e> fizzie: I left the mode 0 unadorned because it came first, and also because AT&T assembly does something similar...
01:55:21 <int-e> And that's also where the # comes from.
01:55:51 <int-e> Your choice makes about the same amount of sense, to me.
01:57:15 <int-e> So what else is there... having labels on operands is kind of cute.
01:57:45 <fizzie> Oh, right, forgot I did that.
01:59:01 <int-e> I didn't. The author did. He also used * the way you're using it.
01:59:58 <int-e> (but not when using a label as an operand... in that case, the * is implicit)
03:30:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:46:05 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:46:58 -!- xelxebar has joined.
04:50:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79067 * Hakerh400 * (+6414) Unlimited recursion and TCO
04:50:59 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79068&oldid=79018 * Hakerh400 * (+101) /* Articles */
04:52:22 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79069&oldid=79067 * Hakerh400 * (-5)
04:54:34 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79070&oldid=79069 * Hakerh400 * (+43)
04:55:11 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79071&oldid=79070 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Example 1 */
05:00:23 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
05:00:43 -!- deltaepsilon23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:01:18 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
05:02:27 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
05:48:29 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79072&oldid=79071 * Hakerh400 * (+423) Added minified version
05:53:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79073&oldid=79072 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
06:44:03 <int-e> shinh: I found snow.
06:51:15 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
06:58:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 020650Z VRB01KT 8000 SCT010 BKN013 M00/M02 Q1014 NOSIG
07:03:57 <shachaf> Seems difficult to find snow in those conditions, but perhaps not impossible.
07:06:59 <int-e> "Slack is where work happens."
07:07:14 <int-e> shachaf: Ah, not in real life (yet).
07:07:36 <lambdabot> KOAK 020653Z 00000KT 10SM FEW200 09/04 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP209 T00890044
07:07:38 <int-e> Unless I look at mountain peaks nearby... I bet there's snow there.
07:08:18 <int-e> https://vcdn.bergfex.at/webcams/archive.new/downsized/7/1587/2020/12/02/1587_2020-12-02_0745_688d47e0ed941b8b.jpg
07:08:44 <int-e> (And now I'm wondering how long that link will work)
07:14:18 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
07:22:15 <zzo38> Which other instruction sets define shift amounts out of range in the same way that Glulx does?
07:42:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine).
07:45:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
08:35:56 -!- manjaro has joined.
08:37:25 -!- manjaro has quit (Client Quit).
08:50:57 -!- arseniiv has joined.
08:53:16 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:09:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:18:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:18:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:46:55 -!- TheLie has joined.
09:56:20 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
10:16:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:26:37 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:46:16 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79074&oldid=78745 * Aspwil * (+108) /* Instructions */
10:50:20 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:20:40 -!- rain1 has joined.
11:23:35 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit).
11:38:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot).
11:41:59 -!- rain1 has joined.
11:49:22 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
11:56:28 -!- sebbu has joined.
11:57:26 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:03:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:06:25 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:08:16 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit).
12:11:48 <shachaf> I'd better get back to it.
12:16:52 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:26:54 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:28:19 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit).
12:30:28 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:35:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:35:50 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:46:04 <fizzie> They promised some snow in London later in the week, but now I think they've taken that back, it's going to be just rain.
12:48:28 <esowiki> [[Markup anguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79075&oldid=44797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) cats
13:16:41 <esowiki> [[Mark C. Chu-Carroll]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79076&oldid=30725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) fix blog link
13:27:18 <esowiki> [[Unlambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79077&oldid=75302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Palindromes */ Waybcak
13:39:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79078&oldid=20018 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Unsigned
13:45:38 -!- Arcorann has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:47:45 -!- Arcorann has joined.
13:50:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
13:55:39 -!- b_jonas has joined.
14:02:22 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
14:02:46 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
14:02:50 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
14:10:51 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
14:32:38 <fizzie> Hmm, nothing on day 2 that could play a similar role as Intcode last year (as in, something shared across multiple days). Well, maybe later.
14:33:53 <rain1> day 2 seems boring
14:54:59 <Arcorann> The first few problems are relatively easy, it'll ramp up as we go
14:55:13 <Arcorann> (you can look at previous years if you want)
15:00:09 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:14:09 -!- FreeFull has joined.
15:15:28 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:18:03 <esowiki> [[User:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79079&oldid=66766 * Moon * (+0) fix to use new username
15:21:10 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:42:25 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just that day 2 last year did introduce Intcode.
15:44:05 <int-e> fizzie: which was odd in that it was an even numbered day
15:44:28 <int-e> shachaf: 301 islands now
15:45:28 <int-e> Does this game ever end? (I've seen a likely ending spot though. In fact I guessed that through the clouds because it looks like the start. But now I've been close and seen a boat waiting there.)
15:46:08 <int-e> (However, there were some rocks blocking it off... and then the float I came in on took me far, far away again.)
15:47:51 <int-e> half of the islands are (or seem to be, for now) fillers anyway, serving as bridges between more interesting ones
15:56:31 <Taneb> int-e: where are you with so many islands? (what game are you playing?)
15:59:19 <int-e> A Monster's Expedition
16:31:11 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
16:59:32 -!- rain1 has joined.
17:08:53 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79080&oldid=78753 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) Undo revision 78753 by [[Special:Contributions/3s0!an9 b0y|3s0!an9 b0y]] ([[User talk:3s0!an9 b0y|talk]]); there's already an implementation
17:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Structure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79081 * LegionMammal978 * (+292) Created page with "Does this language have any input or output? Also, you never really define how "pointer information" vs. "direct information" is supposed to work, especially with <code><&g..."
17:33:49 -!- LKoen has joined.
17:37:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[SimpIe progranning Ianguage]] to [[SimpIe progranning language]]: fix title
17:39:30 <esowiki> [[SimpIe progranning language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79084&oldid=79082 * LegionMammal978 * (+5) fixed name
17:42:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[.Oneline]] to [[OneLine]]: fix title
17:44:39 <esowiki> [[OneLine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79087&oldid=79085 * LegionMammal978 * (-18) fixed name
17:44:55 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79088&oldid=74518 * LegionMammal978 * (+34)
17:45:46 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79089&oldid=79033 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:46:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79090&oldid=79055 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:46:40 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79091 * Hakerh400 * (+1265) +[[Expensive]]
17:46:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79092&oldid=79017 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Expensive]]
17:46:47 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79093&oldid=79068 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Expensive]]
17:46:53 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79094&oldid=79056 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:47:08 <esowiki> [[User:Zenenbee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79095&oldid=78959 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
17:47:19 <esowiki> [[Multiline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79096&oldid=78973 * LegionMammal978 * (-1)
18:24:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:SHAat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79097&oldid=79037 * LegionMammal978 * (+483)
18:30:08 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
18:55:16 -!- imode has joined.
19:15:53 -!- diverger has joined.
19:25:54 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
19:26:24 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:47:08 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:57:24 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
19:57:31 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
20:13:25 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:28:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79098&oldid=63540 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) you forgot to define c
21:10:48 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79099&oldid=79091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) sknil + tac
21:12:45 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79100&oldid=79073 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Example 1 */ spl
21:15:26 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, it's the oddest prime.
21:39:04 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
21:40:12 -!- MDude has joined.
21:46:54 <esowiki> [[Structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79101&oldid=78755 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Give Structure some structure (ha-ha) and rm/add cat (not pattern-based, is it?)
21:47:53 <esowiki> [[Structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79102&oldid=79101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Syntax */ link
22:00:57 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:05:47 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
22:06:08 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:06:12 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
22:11:49 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:12:54 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:13:19 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:14:27 -!- FreeFull has quit.
23:49:02 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79103&oldid=77813 * Ais523 * (-27) I don't think 05AB1E is pattern-based; what a command means depends on what byte it is, not on what bytes surround it
00:18:47 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
00:20:56 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:55:27 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:58:56 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79104&oldid=79103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link
01:06:38 <int-e> . o O ( Plan for today... do not play AME, let's see how well that goes. )
01:10:19 -!- tromp has joined.
01:14:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:19:15 <fizzie> My bridge-building stalled off for some reason, even though I've still got 14/16 of the levels of the last world (out of 5) unfinished, plus almost all (16/16 of 3/5, and 13/16 of one more) of the challenge mode levels that are the same as the originals but with an extra twist.
01:20:07 <int-e> I also have plenty of bridges left to build in the other franchise.
01:20:33 <fizzie> I heard my wife's brother's playing a medieval bridge-building game, is that part of your franchise?
01:20:59 <int-e> This one? https://www.gog.com/game/bridge_constructor_medieval
01:21:18 <int-e> That one I actually finished. It has a cute twist.
01:21:18 <fizzie> Probably. How many medieval bridge construction games could there be?
01:21:33 <int-e> fizzie: I know of one. But there can easily be more...
01:21:57 <int-e> there are three active franchises I think, though I forgot what the third one is.
01:23:07 <int-e> (The twist I mean is that you get to build bridges that are designed to break. I think I've talked about this here, actually.)
01:24:59 <int-e> (finished = played all the bridges, with challenges. there'll always be room for optimization.)
01:41:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:41:51 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
01:48:54 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
01:49:02 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
01:58:01 <shachaf> int-e: I haven't played it since we last talked about it.
01:58:43 <int-e> I played 6 hours yesterday, it was too much.
01:59:20 <int-e> (total time is approaching 8 hours, plus 1 hour for the first test run; I started over two days ago)
01:59:59 <shachaf> I can't tell whether you mean you started more than two days ago or restarted from scratch two days ago.
02:00:02 <int-e> And don't ask me why... I don't really have a good reason. I guess I wanted to see how much I'd learned.
02:00:26 <int-e> I think I started three days ago.
02:01:02 <int-e> Oh it's been longer actually, hmm.
02:01:26 <shachaf> That's definitely over two days ago.
02:02:06 <int-e> I guess I tried it out on the 29th, then gave it a rest on the 30th, then started from scratch the 1st, played 6 hours the 2nd, and now it's the 3rd.
02:02:26 <int-e> So 4 days by that measure.
02:26:49 -!- tromp has joined.
02:31:40 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:43:51 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:46:37 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
02:46:44 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
03:32:48 -!- arseniiv has joined.
03:46:05 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:44:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
07:11:54 -!- tromp has joined.
07:14:40 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:06:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:10:18 -!- tromp has joined.
08:13:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:00:04 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days).
09:03:04 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:03:41 -!- delta23 has joined.
09:11:47 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
09:15:54 -!- sprocklem has joined.
09:48:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:48:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:55:51 -!- LKoen has joined.
09:56:27 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79105&oldid=79099 * Hakerh400 * (+38) /* Truth-machine */
10:26:49 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:36:18 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:44:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:11:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:26:26 -!- tromp_ has joined.
11:26:28 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:46:16 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:22:13 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:25:26 <fizzie> Kind of a slow start. But at least we're back to the '#'s and the '.'s.
12:25:27 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:25:40 -!- j-bot has joined.
12:25:55 <Taneb> Is there an #esoteric leaderboard for AoC?
12:26:34 <fizzie> Not that I know of. But I think the timed challenge thing kind of doesn't work cross timezones so much, anyway.
12:27:10 <fizzie> And/or with people who aren't going to commit to work on these in a timely manner. :)
12:29:04 <Taneb> I've been naturally waking up at 5AM anyway for a week or so for reasons I can't figure out, which is awful except for the fact it lets me get an early start on AoC
12:29:05 <fizzie> Full disclosure: I'm doing my Go "let's pretend to write this like I'm doing actual software development" thing again, with the "turn all examples into unit tests" stuff and so on, and that's not very optimized for time.
12:29:30 <fizzie> The only time I got points in 2019 was when I forgot to go to bed and it was suddenly 5am.
12:32:20 <Taneb> btw there is a secret intcode reference in today's
12:32:57 <int-e> the task is boring but there are secret references?
12:33:17 <fizzie> Oh, right, it had those hovertext things, completely forgot about them.
12:34:28 <fizzie> And then post-the-25th, they got highlighted or something.
12:34:43 <rain1> is day 3 worth doing
12:35:06 <int-e> Taneb seems to be taking this seriously.
12:35:15 <rain1> if i don't do them will i stop seeing them eventually?
12:35:44 <fizzie> I'm taking completion % seriously, even if I'm not taking the leaderboards. :)
12:35:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79106&oldid=79092 * Mantita223 * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
12:36:34 <int-e> today I overtook 2200 people between part 1 and part 2 :-P
12:36:51 <int-e> (based on https://adventofcode.com/2020/leaderboard/self )
12:37:12 <int-e> > 29342 {- part 1 rank -} - 27087 {- part 2 rank -}
12:37:18 <FireFly> I'm not waking up before 06:00 just for aoc :p
12:38:19 <int-e> I was awake but I was trying to build somebody else's Haskell project which seemed more interesting.
12:38:54 <int-e> I only got around to AoC 6 (minus 5 minutes) hours into their day.
12:40:59 <fizzie> I think I'm mostly surprised about the lack of difference between part 1s and part 2s so far.
12:41:03 <fizzie> As in, not surprised that the grey-to-gold ratio is smaller in https://adventofcode.com/2020/stats than in https://adventofcode.com/2019/stats
12:41:34 <int-e> yeah I had a similar thought
12:43:13 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79107 * Mantita223 * (+732) Created page with "==Yo!ink== Yo!ink is a esoteric programming language made by the user [[mantita223]] The language has very simple syntax, and with a bit of programming knowledge, anyone can u..."
12:45:31 <int-e> maybe it'll get better
12:45:41 <int-e> there's still hope
12:46:24 <int-e> but it should really ramp up the difficulty soon or I'll stop checking for updates and do everything on the 25th :P
12:49:10 <b_jonas> it probably will. they need a few easy problems as bait.
12:49:51 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at this advent of code thing if it's so popular here
12:50:19 <int-e> A few, so 4 wasn't enough? Also the real trick is to make part 1 easy and part 2 difficult.
12:50:39 <int-e> Then ramp those up slowly.
12:52:27 <int-e> Easy to say, of course.
12:53:00 <fizzie> I guess 2019 day 4 isn't really much different than what we've seen so far of 2020, so maybe this is just general 2020 negativity going on.
12:54:47 <int-e> The alternating theme in 2019 was fun.
12:55:23 <int-e> (even though later on the intcode only served as obfuscation for the puzzle input)
12:55:46 <int-e> except for day 25!
13:02:13 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
13:13:36 -!- LKoen has joined.
13:46:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
13:50:15 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
13:52:48 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79108&oldid=79107 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+362) wikitext, cats, links, rm redundant header
14:02:29 <b_jonas> starting to look at Advent of Code 2020 => I'm on an island and I have to collect star coins? what's this, a Mario game?
14:04:19 <int-e> you're not even there yet
14:04:24 <int-e> it's just a mundane job
14:04:28 <int-e> earn money for code
14:04:49 <int-e> it's small amounts of code so you get small amounts of money
14:04:55 <int-e> maybe that's why the problems are so trivial
14:20:40 <b_jonas> how many times or how fast can I retry these problems? because this problem looks like there are only a thousand different possible outputs, so I might just retry submitting random outputs instead of solving it properly
14:23:41 <rain1> you're not supposed to do that
14:26:26 <int-e> it's against the christmas spirit
14:28:42 <Taneb> b_jonas: I think there's a 1 minute timeout but I could be mixed up
14:34:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm. I've definitely taken more than a minute on the second half of this task, and I got the star.
14:35:42 <fizzie> Not that kind of a timeout, a timeout on how quickly you can repeatedly submit.
14:35:47 <fizzie> I seem to recall it was a minute, too.
14:36:27 <fizzie> Because the one time I was doing it live, I made a typo when copying the answer when submitting, and had to wait for that, and it was frustrating.
14:36:29 <b_jonas> so the 1000 possibilities are just about possible to brute force
14:36:41 <fizzie> Yeah. FWIW, usually there's a lot more possible answers than that.
14:37:38 <b_jonas> anyway, I got the two yellow star coins for day 1. on to day 2. I haven't seen any red star coins yet.
14:42:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/2 first task asks how many passwords are valid from a list of 1000 passwords. the answer must be between 0 and 1000 inclusive, that's 1001 possibilities. day 1 first task also has about 1000 possibilities if all prices in the input are non-negative integers.
14:42:28 -!- LKoen has joined.
14:44:02 <fizzie> Yeah, but that's from a sample size of N=2, I was talking more out from 2019 experiences.
14:44:27 <int-e> brute forcing the answer seems more effort than computing it
14:44:27 <b_jonas> sample size 3, because day 1 second task has more possibilities I think
14:44:32 <int-e> in both these cases
14:44:38 <b_jonas> int-e: in these cases, yes
14:46:04 <fizzie> Also I'd say the 2020 days 1-3 (hopefully) aren't terribly representative of AoC as a whole. From 2019, I think days 16, 18, 20 and 22 were among the interesting ones, along with the Intcode stuff in general. Days 16 and 22 both have a nice "part 1 can be very straightfoward, but won't generalize to part 2" thing going on.
14:46:30 <b_jonas> let me solve this day 2 first task then
14:47:18 <fizzie> I don't think it's a spoiler to say that so far the part 2's have been pretty much the same as part 1's, which is a little unfortunate.
14:48:34 <fizzie> Incidentally, this year's day 3's part 1 is definitely brute-forceable too, with an even smaller solution space. Though again there's not really any reason to.
14:49:30 <FireFly> the intcode stuff was a real bummer for people who had planned to do each task in a different language for funs
14:49:31 <b_jonas> so these get updated in the European morning?
14:50:29 <myname> ah, you mean people probably get points for just bruteforcing?
14:50:36 <b_jonas> FireFly: why? intcode is easy enough to implement anew, or if you want to use an older implementation, you can learn how to bridge or combine languages
14:52:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: well I mean, it seemed to get a bit old to reimplement the same VM from what I could tell last year, I saw some noise on twitter wrt it
14:52:27 <FireFly> I didn't really do aoc last year, and in general I've never been good at following through :p
14:52:36 <FireFly> so we'll see how I fare this year
14:53:45 <b_jonas> do we have info for how fast you have to be to get leaderboard points?
14:53:57 <b_jonas> like when the 50th and 100th solutions arrived?
14:54:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: They get updated American east coast midnight, which translates into European quite-early morning.
14:55:28 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes, you can see them in the per-day leaderboards.
14:55:35 <fizzie> https://adventofcode.com/2020/leaderboard/day/2 and so on.
14:57:39 <b_jonas> looks like you have to be a few minutes after publication for these first days... though later days may be much harder of course
14:59:06 <Taneb> So, I was 4 minutes and 18 seconds too slow to get onto the leaderboards for part 2 this morning :(
15:04:13 -!- LKoen_ has joined.
15:07:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:08:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:48:13 -!- MDude has joined.
15:51:36 <b_jonas> does this AoC site give some way to prove how many gold stars I have? it shows the count to me, but I have to be logged in for that
15:52:28 <Taneb> Hmm, it does to someone with whom you share a private leaderboard
15:52:47 <b_jonas> ah, so do we have an #esoteric leaderboard?
15:52:58 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
16:00:35 <b_jonas> I guess we can wait for more difficult tasks
16:00:45 <Taneb> I am in favour of having one
16:12:18 <fizzie> I'm lukewarm, but would have a non-negligible chance of joining if one was created. I don't care about the points thing (and I think it might be kind of pointless for as small a group as this), but the gold star thing is different.
16:12:37 <fizzie> Taneb: You would be, because if you're consistently awake at puzzle publication time, you'll end up having a perfect score on it.
16:18:07 <Taneb> fizzie: that is a fair point but not the whole reason (I like being part of things)
16:20:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: so would a private leaderboard tell how many gold stars we have?
16:20:11 <b_jonas> and red stars if they exist?
16:20:29 <b_jonas> or dragon coins if they call it that
16:21:27 <Taneb> Hang on, I'll get a screenshot of the #haskell leaderboard
16:21:50 <Taneb> https://i.imgur.com/AGbbaIT.png
16:22:18 <fizzie> Note that AIUI you can only have one private leaderboard.
16:22:22 <Taneb> There it shows that a lot of people have done the first three days (it would be a silver star if they had only done part day)
16:22:27 <Taneb> fizzie: you can be a member of many however
16:22:43 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't realize that's what it meant by "you can only have one".
16:22:57 <Taneb> I'm currently in five
16:23:19 <Taneb> But they're each associated with a user (#haskell is glguy for example)
16:23:38 <fizzie> That makes sense. I just misinterpreted the page.
16:37:36 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, with a private leaderboard, do you also get just a top 100, or just however many people are on it?
16:37:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:38:27 <fizzie> (Not that I imagine there'd be a difference for #esoteric.)
16:38:40 <Taneb> I think however many people are in it
16:40:50 <b_jonas> Taneb: thanks, that looks like it shows the gold and double gold stars for each task, ideal
16:42:55 <fizzie> And one more thing, are these private leaderboards per-year, or global across the events?
16:43:10 <Taneb> But you only view one year at a time
17:17:44 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
17:33:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Starwort * New user account
17:36:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79109&oldid=79039 * Starwort * (+167) /* Introductions */
17:38:01 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79110&oldid=74826 * Starwort * (+123) Add my Intcode interpreter to the list of interpreters
17:48:06 <fizzie> Heh, looks like the channel isn't the only one getting into AoC mood.
18:04:12 -!- arseniiv has joined.
18:25:47 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
18:30:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, freenode has programmers elsewhere too
18:37:22 <b_jonas> fungot, you speak British, right? what does "a niggle" mean?
18:37:22 <fungot> b_jonas: oh, well,' said susan. ' that's croaking territory over there.
18:47:38 -!- borrowed has joined.
18:55:51 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
19:17:04 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79111&oldid=78722 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+223) Clarification: Jumps outside of the code space are considered errors
19:22:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
19:22:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
19:22:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
19:54:44 -!- rain1 has joined.
20:24:15 -!- sprocklem has joined.
21:03:04 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79112&oldid=79110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Program Structure */ link
21:04:16 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79113&oldid=79112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ wikipedia link
21:51:50 <esowiki> [[Decision shrub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79114&oldid=78608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Example of a decision shrub */ I meant FIX before
21:53:23 <esowiki> [[Befreak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79115&oldid=79058 * CatIsFluffy * (-8) smaller program based on the example on the page
21:56:51 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79116&oldid=74959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* The proof */ link to bf
22:08:47 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
22:11:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:11:48 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
22:45:43 -!- imode has joined.
23:08:46 <zzo38> Firefox loads EPUB files fine, but in order to load them, you have to add "jar:" at the beginning of the URL (before "file:") and add "!/" at the end of the URL, and then it will work.
23:27:56 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:50:17 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
00:54:50 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
00:54:56 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
00:55:47 <int-e> Regarding an AoC #esoteric leaderboard... I try hard not to be competetive about this. So I'm rather disinclined.
00:57:48 <int-e> Not that that should stop anybody. But it won't be large enough for lurking anonymously (in contrast to the #haskell one which I did actually join)
01:08:01 <esowiki> [[Befreak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79117&oldid=79115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) link
01:13:03 <zzo38> (I don't know how common it is to load EPUB files in Firefox in this way.)
01:18:45 -!- bcasiello has joined.
01:43:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:44:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:45:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:39:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:50:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:31:25 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
03:35:25 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+719) Created page with "Flipfractal is an experimental variant of [[Memfractal]], which was created by [[User:Zzo38]]. It takes ideas from [[BackFlip]] and the Memfractal specifications by User:Cam..."
03:36:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79119&oldid=79106 * Delta23 * (+18) add flipfractal
03:39:52 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
03:45:08 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79120&oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+88) Add truth machine example
03:52:41 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79121&oldid=79120 * Delta23 * (+172) Minor details
04:32:12 -!- Arcorann has joined.
04:44:49 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79122&oldid=79105 * Hakerh400 * (+84) /* Hello, world! */
04:45:39 <zzo38> What camera settings should be used to take pictures of Christmas lights?
04:47:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79123&oldid=79090 * Hakerh400 * (+66) +[[Expensive]]
04:50:36 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79124&oldid=79123 * Hakerh400 * (+48) +[[Flipfractal]]
06:14:35 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:26:10 -!- MDude has joined.
06:30:41 -!- MDude has quit (Client Quit).
06:39:28 <int-e> okay I can't complain that the second AoC part wasn't harder today
06:39:41 <int-e> the new complaint is that it's so mundane
07:22:36 <zzo38> I can run Hero Mesh on DOSBOX, but it is slow.
07:23:36 <zzo38> (I would like to have more testers for Free Hero Mesh)
07:24:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like A Monster's Expedition?
07:25:51 <zzo38> (I don't know what it is, either, and I did not find it on Wikipedia, either)
07:32:19 <shachaf> Oh, it's a puzzle computer game.
07:39:10 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
07:39:32 <shachaf> i,i `learn This month, this is A Monster's Expedition. Do you like this?
07:53:21 <zzo38> In Hero Mesh (and also in Free Hero Mesh once it is completed), you can rewind as much as you want, and you can also edit the move list to insert or delete moves. So far, I think most FOSS puzzle games don't do this.
07:53:59 <int-e> xsok did it ages ago :P
07:54:17 <int-e> (though "editing" is maybe a bit of a stretch)
07:54:30 <zzo38> Yes, maybe some do, but it would seem that most don't (although most proprietary puzzle games also don't)
07:54:40 <int-e> (but the binary save file format isn't hard to read and write)
07:56:58 <zzo38> Sokoban is strictly turn based and deterministic, like Hero Mesh is, though.
07:57:35 <int-e> AME is also strictly turn based
07:58:09 <int-e> And borrows the basic push-only Sokoban mechanic... and then goes surprisingly wild with it.
07:58:35 <zzo38> Yes, and some other games too
08:00:44 <zzo38> I found the documentation for xsok now.
08:03:00 <int-e> xsok was an addiction for me... I've patched it (adding more level sets, fixing a couple of bugs, modifying the pixmaps, most notably to make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not)...
08:06:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
08:06:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
08:09:30 <int-e> and I've spent 100s of hours optimizing solutions by hand
08:12:45 -!- LKoen has joined.
08:14:36 <zzo38> There are some of the features like Hero Mesh in xsok, although xsok isn't as versatile (although it does allow customizing the scoring definition). That includes the attributes Strength (called Power in xsok) and Weight, and a few other things.
08:15:31 <zzo38> Maybe it also might be possible later converting xsok levels into Free Hero Mesh, too.
08:17:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:22:21 <zzo38> Automatically testing it also it seem to be possible (also for conversions from Hero Mesh to Free Hero Mesh, too); if you have a recording of the moves of the solution, it can check that it is a valid solution.
08:23:00 <int-e> translucent boxes in action: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/xbox.png
08:23:33 <int-e> (the actor is so ugly...)
08:24:35 <zzo38> Yes, that is good that the boxes is translucent now.
08:25:30 <int-e> these are my own private changes though :P
08:25:53 <zzo38> Yes, the actor isn't so good, and I don't like the floor graphics so much either
08:26:44 <int-e> though I suppose replacing an installed xpm file is a no-brainer
08:28:46 <int-e> so if you care: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/objects.xpm.gz
08:28:49 <zzo38> Most programs that deal with XPM do not support all of its features (although my own implementation implements more than most do, still it doesn't implement the Lisp format)
08:30:27 <int-e> Oh right, xsok had a box you can step into... a bit like a fully turned over table in Hiding Place
08:30:44 <int-e> (including the possibility to push it around with another box)
08:35:50 <zzo38> Unlike xsok (and maybe some others), Free Hero Mesh is using that the definitions for classes of objects can contain program codes to be executed, when it receives a message.
08:38:03 <zzo38> (Some of the ideas in xsok are things I had thought of too independently to implement in Free Hero Mesh, such as the bookmark. I had also thought of custom scoring, but I am not sure if I will implement that.)
09:46:16 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:02:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sertdfyguhi * New user account
10:10:18 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
10:17:15 -!- borrowed has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:47:21 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79125&oldid=79074 * Aspwil * (+159) /* Instructions */
10:47:35 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79126&oldid=79125 * Aspwil * (+3) /* Instructions */
11:06:44 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:11:51 -!- rain1 has joined.
11:12:46 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
11:13:13 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
11:13:17 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
11:26:00 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:32:11 <rain1> ooof day 4 would be a hassle in C
11:41:18 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:42:59 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
11:43:22 <Arcorann> I wonder how many people are doing AoC in esolangs this year
11:55:50 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
12:04:36 <Taneb> I'm aware of someone doing it in Nix and someone doing it in APL but neither of them are quite esolangs
12:08:59 <Hooloovo0> I think there's a couple people on the TI channels that are attempting it in TI-Basic
12:11:33 <shachaf> Is that the language used on the TI-83?
12:11:41 <shachaf> I think I wrote some programs in that to draw semifancy pictures.
12:13:33 <Arcorann> I saw someone put up a BBC Basic editor online --> https://bbcmic.ro/
12:15:02 <Hooloovo0> yeah, basically. as TI has moved to color it's changed a bit but not really that much
12:15:25 <Taneb> shachaf: I might have invented enriched categories this morning
12:15:26 <Hooloovo0> for most of the AoC stuff it's not that different I think?
12:15:52 <shachaf> Taneb: Niceo McMiceo, enriched over what?
12:16:42 <Taneb> I started with the (R, +, <=) as an ordered monoid as a monoidal poset and worked up from there
12:16:55 <Taneb> (I was thinking about metric spaces)
12:19:05 <Taneb> (and in particular, why they use the real numbers)
12:21:22 <fizzie> I think I wrote something semifancy in the TI-86 dialect of TI-Basic too.
12:21:58 <fizzie> And our maths teacher was incredibly enthusiastic about it. He had one of those slide projector attachments for his TI-85-or-86.
12:22:58 <fizzie> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-I-ViewScreen-85-Graphing-Calculator-Projector/181006275400
12:24:22 <fizzie> Also don't buy that one, there's a much cheaper listing for one as well. But maybe you're not in the market for it anyway.
12:28:34 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79127&oldid=79121 * Delta23 * (+168) add smaller Truth Machine variant with differing design
12:32:25 <shachaf> What happened was: My classmate showed me a program he'd written on his calculator that drew fractals or something, and I was impressed, and made my own version of the idea with some tweaks.
12:32:43 <shachaf> Later it turned out that the program, line for line, was in the calculator manual, which I'd never seen.
12:33:50 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real?
12:34:42 <Taneb> shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis
12:35:41 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you saw https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 from a while ago.
12:35:48 <shachaf> Which that website is really not the best place for.
12:36:13 <shachaf> The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly.
12:38:20 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:39:30 <Arcorann> I remember in high school optimising the Factor12 and that probability-related program that got passed around the class
12:49:22 <Hooloovo0> fizzie I've already got a viewscreen 86 :)
12:49:45 <Hooloovo0> been a while since I've done any 85/86 programming, I should get back into it but you know how projects go
12:51:35 <Hooloovo0> (I really should get an overhead projector so I can display them properly)
13:10:58 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79128&oldid=79127 * Delta23 * (+273) Add computational class ideas (tree stack automata?)
13:13:10 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79129&oldid=79128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) kl
13:15:45 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79130&oldid=79129 * Delta23 * (+330) add more information
13:19:12 <esowiki> [[State and Main]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79131&oldid=74324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Truth-machine */ add notice
13:21:25 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79132&oldid=74002 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) cats
13:25:10 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79133&oldid=79130 * Delta23 * (+253) Change it to Torus program space and add multithreaded variant
13:25:55 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79134&oldid=67742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Implementation */ c
13:30:25 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79135&oldid=79133 * Delta23 * (+85) add blackhole instruction
13:38:03 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79136&oldid=79135 * Delta23 * (+244) blackhole is optional + reasoning
13:39:49 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79137&oldid=79134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+198) Add a [[truth-machine]]
13:41:21 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79138&oldid=79124 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Grawlix */ [[Gregorovich]]
13:43:46 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79139&oldid=71278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Examples */ hm
13:53:02 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79140&oldid=72672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Builtins */ clarify
13:54:09 <esowiki> [[Uack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79141&oldid=71604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Examples */ cat
14:05:11 <arseniiv_> shachaf: Taneb: I thought any ordered field (and adding ±∞ for ∞-metric spaces) would do, and reals are just one very useful celebrity. But if I’m not mistaken, you can use “ℚ-metric spaces” to define ℝ itself as a legit (ℚ-)metric completion (of ℚ). Then as ℚ is minimal, you can’t get any simpler, but you also probably don’t want things like ℚ[√5, √71]. There *could* be sense to use algebraic numbers, though (in computa
14:05:11 <arseniiv_> tional stuff?). There also may be reason to use something finer than ℝ but that will be non-Archimedean, as you know, and maybe that bars many possile applications, compared with ℝ, algebraics or ℚ
14:06:21 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
14:07:20 <arseniiv> also please tell if I shouldn’t use ℝ and ℚ characters if they display poorly (they do for me)
14:07:36 <arseniiv> (I think not many fonts have them)
14:10:05 <arseniiv> but I think I doesn’t know much more about why there is ℝ. Hopefully these reasons (barring historical ones) are convincing enough. They convince me maybe 4/5 through
14:10:33 <arseniiv> but I think I doesn’t know => wow how did I write that
14:14:08 <rain1> what's this about?
14:17:24 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:24:22 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:25:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: are the Christmas lights steady or flashing?
14:33:02 <arseniiv> rain1: <Taneb> (I was thinking about metric spaces) <Taneb> (and in particular, why they use the real numbers) <shachaf> Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real? <Taneb> shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis
14:33:35 <arseniiv> hm I should have linked to logs but I’m lazy :D
14:34:28 -!- FreeFull has joined.
14:41:02 <rain1> it's a good question
14:41:26 <rain1> I think it is because the real numbers are a unique ordered field with limits
14:48:18 <arseniiv> rain1: non-archimedean ordered fields necessary have non-unique limits?
14:48:42 <Taneb> arseniiv: the definition of metric space seems to only require an ordered monoid, none of the laws refer to multiplication, division, or even subtraction
14:52:26 <arseniiv> Taneb: yeah, though surely there will be some reason why just monoid is too weak for many occasions. Though right now I don’t have an argument even why it would be good for it to be a semiring
14:54:17 <Taneb> I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total
14:55:28 <b_jonas> I know some puzzle games that at least let you undo steps for free: Baba is you, and tom7's Escape
14:56:18 <b_jonas> int-e: "make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not" => some sokoban games use a custom tile for a box on a target
14:57:56 <Taneb> arseniiv: possibly for any ordered monoid M, an M-metric space is equivalent to some R-metric space?
14:59:29 <b_jonas> "enriched categories" => with savory spices?
14:59:36 <arseniiv> Taneb: if that monoid comes to be hyperreals, it should be impossible but I’m not totally sure
15:00:36 <Taneb> arseniiv: that seems correct
15:02:08 <b_jonas> "The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly." => yep. long ago I asked why homotopy was defined in a way that depended on the real numbers. I got partial answers.
15:04:42 <arseniiv> Taneb: then we may try to characterise which ordered monoids sit inside reals and which don’t, maybe it can still be expressed in a useful way
15:05:20 <arseniiv> or maybe we should take extended reals R ∪ {±∞} already
15:06:15 <arseniiv> they are necessary to make (undirected) graphs into so-called ∞-metric spaces. I’d rather define usual metric spaces as these from the start, though
15:07:07 <arseniiv> as infinite distance is frequently necessary in practical applications (it seems for me)
15:07:46 <arseniiv> well at least [weighted] graphs would take a big chunk by themselves
15:10:53 -!- bcasiello_ has joined.
15:11:25 <arseniiv> <Taneb> I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total => BTW several months ago I tried to formalize cyclical and total orders as two kinds of the general thing, though that ended up too useless
15:13:24 <arseniiv> it was based on that you can inject some total order as a kind of a segment/interval in that space. The definition tried to capture all the intervals in that space
15:13:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:13:39 <arseniiv> maybe the idea would be interesting to somebody
15:14:01 -!- bcasiello has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:16:35 <arseniiv> actually, not just intervals but “paths which don’t skip elements”, as you can walk circles on, well, a circle
15:18:06 -!- user24 has joined.
15:20:13 <Taneb> ...what do you mean by cyclical order?
15:22:45 <arseniiv> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_order
15:22:54 <arseniiv> (also there is a partial one too)
15:22:59 <Taneb> Ah, I'd not encountered that before
15:25:16 <arseniiv> Z/nZ are ubiquitous examples of this but I hadn’t seen the general notion until recently too
16:14:02 <int-e> shachaf: 385 and still no end. also I'm now on an island with no clue what to do.
16:18:45 <int-e> (well I do have an objective in mind... it wouldn't be the first time that that objective is wrong. open world effect...)
16:22:34 -!- MDude has joined.
17:06:53 <b_jonas> eye color and *hair color* are required fields? and name and issuer and passport types aren't? funny
17:19:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Joman522 * New user account
17:25:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79142&oldid=79109 * Joman522 * (+207) /* Introductions */
17:27:09 <b_jonas> hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa says that the Leaning Tower of Pisa was declared "stabled for at least another 300 years" in 2001-12, and later declared "stable for at least 200 years" in 2008-05. a naive linear interpolation suggests that we should visit the tower soon, because it will be declared potentially unsafe during next year.
17:41:06 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
18:27:01 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:41:46 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79143&oldid=79136 * Delta23 * (+68) add tree stack access program example
18:45:24 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79144&oldid=79143 * Delta23 * (+28) make important note of behavior, could be used for TC proof
18:52:28 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+6780) Created page with "Creating IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang (can be shortened to ITAMFSARL) is an esoteric programming language created december 12, 2020 by [[User:SoicBR]] which..."
18:56:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
18:59:22 <arseniiv> BTW en.wikipedia states: “If the distance function takes values in some (suitable) ordered set (and the triangle inequality is adjusted accordingly), then we arrive at the notion of generalized ultrametric.”
19:00:46 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79146&oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+98)
19:06:53 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79147&oldid=79144 * Delta23 * (+385) Add abstract machine within flipfractal
19:11:31 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79148&oldid=79147 * Delta23 * (+122) note
19:23:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:06:43 -!- rain1 has joined.
20:09:41 <zzo38> b_jonas: Some Christmas lights are flashy and some aren't, including the ones together
20:12:19 <b_jonas> so they are flashy. that's more difficult because it's hard to show the flashing pattern on a static photo. but christmas lights can be hard in first place because they're dark and so visible only when the rest of the scene is dark
20:13:58 <b_jonas> but I don't think they have any really special tricks besides the usual low light photos. use a tripod if you can't hold the camera steady enough, hold the camera steady with two hands under and stick to 0.5 seconds exposure if you don't have a tripod
20:14:49 <b_jonas> if you do have a tripod, you might try to take two pictures, one for the lights and one for the background, and compose them later.
20:15:23 <zzo38> They are incandescent lights
20:17:18 <zzo38> The lights appear too bright compared with the rest of the picture
20:21:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:55:07 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
20:56:06 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
21:00:55 <b_jonas> int-e: I like this mundane data validation. it's the sort of thing that I do at work every day. it's rewarding. I keep finding problems in things that are in production and that other people have supposedly "tested" and signed off as working. sometimes it never worked, more often it's about new features that got added after those supposed "tests", but added in a half-assed way that doesn't really make
21:01:47 <b_jonas> except of course I don't get this nice specification about what counts as valid, that's the part that I have to write. coding it is the easy part.
21:02:08 <b_jonas> and usuall there are much more complicated relations that have to be held, involving joins, instead of just single field values.
21:02:17 <b_jonas> but still, it's just about this mundane
21:02:19 -!- bcasiello_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:02:53 -!- bcasiello has joined.
21:21:26 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:25:25 <esowiki> [[Ackermann function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79149&oldid=57452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-50) wikipedia link
21:29:41 <esowiki> [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79150&oldid=62923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) definition, stub, cat
21:35:51 <esowiki> [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79151&oldid=67600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) This isn't very well a program form
21:38:39 -!- imode has joined.
21:38:51 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79152&oldid=71479 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Spreading */
21:39:31 <esowiki> [[Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79153&oldid=73008 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) hm...
21:42:21 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79154&oldid=70216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Computational class */ example + links
21:44:19 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
21:48:35 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79155&oldid=79154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* External resources */ cat, waybacks
21:50:10 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79156&oldid=66884 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Unbounded programs */ I hardly see how this is a stub
21:56:07 <esowiki> [[Binary lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79157&oldid=70655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) code, link
21:59:15 <esowiki> [[Quadratic sync problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79158&oldid=62891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Computational class */ cat
22:00:02 <esowiki> [[Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79159&oldid=68215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat (please correct if wrong)
22:00:25 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79160&oldid=75841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) cat link
22:03:19 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79161&oldid=79148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) clean up a bit
22:04:18 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:25:24 <esowiki> [[Spice]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79162 * Slord * (+2396) Created page with "== Summary == A programming language for 'Golfing' in an assembly-like/lite environment. - Spice is an interpreted assembly-like language with a handful of operators: ADD, `S..."
22:26:26 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:41:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79163&oldid=79119 * Slord * (+12)
23:13:47 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:18:46 -!- bcasiello has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:19:20 -!- tromp has joined.
23:29:45 -!- Arcorann has joined.
00:28:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
00:31:44 -!- sprocklem has joined.
00:33:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79164&oldid=79142 * Sertdfyguhi * (+138)
00:33:54 <esowiki> [[Plts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79165 * Sertdfyguhi * (+912) Created page with "<p>plts(programming language that sucks) is a stack-based programming language invented in 2020 by me.</p> <h1>Commands</h1> <ul> <li><code>?[letter]</code>: push letter to..."
00:35:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79166&oldid=79163 * Sertdfyguhi * (+11)
00:46:35 <esowiki> [[Plts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79167&oldid=79165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) wikitext, cats
01:38:32 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79168&oldid=56988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Implementations */ eso policy
01:42:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:44:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:59:14 -!- nfd9001 has joined.
03:00:55 -!- FreeFull has quit.
03:07:20 <esowiki> [[User:Expliked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79169&oldid=78694 * Expliked * (-13)
03:13:21 -!- Discordian[m] has quit (*.net *.split).
03:13:22 -!- sparr has quit (*.net *.split).
03:14:16 -!- sparr has joined.
03:15:46 -!- sparr has quit (Client Quit).
03:16:14 -!- sparr has joined.
03:18:42 -!- Discordian[m] has joined.
03:20:58 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host).
03:20:58 -!- sparr has joined.
04:02:21 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79170&oldid=79161 * Delta23 * (-7) fix typo
04:03:11 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
04:03:11 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
04:19:22 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:30:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: cycling).
04:31:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
04:31:17 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:32:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
04:32:00 -!- sebbu has joined.
04:43:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: cycling).
04:44:14 -!- sebbu has joined.
04:45:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
04:45:19 -!- sebbu has joined.
05:09:52 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79171 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1013) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''ewpl'''(even worse programming language) is a programming language invented by me in 2020. ==Language Overview== This language uses a single cell to store as..."
05:10:08 <esowiki> [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79172&oldid=79167 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1)
05:11:34 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79173&oldid=79171 * Sertdfyguhi * (+109)
05:12:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79174&oldid=79166 * Sertdfyguhi * (+11)
05:16:57 <int-e> . o O ( getting worse. no code for today. )
05:17:33 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79175 * Sertdfyguhi * (+233) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} I'm a programmer with more than half a year of experience. My most favourite languages are JavaScript and Python. ==esolangs I made== [[plts]] <br> [[ewpl]] ==..."
05:22:25 <int-e> shachaf: Never mind about being stuck, I just missed a corner case. I've reached the end now, though obviously there are some lose ends yet to discover...
05:22:58 <shachaf> Hopefully you reached the win end rather than a lose end.
05:23:03 <int-e> Currently 450 islands, 3 friends... missing at least 2 more friends (I've seen them, but not managed to get there)
05:23:09 <int-e> there's a lose end?
05:24:16 <int-e> (actually the final island is all one land mass but counts as several islands)
05:25:50 <shachaf> I didn't mean to do an obnoxious correction. I was instead trying to make an obnoxious opportunistic pun.
05:26:01 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:27:21 <int-e> it's okay, I just hadn't noticed my typo
05:55:09 <int-e> oh... winning removes the global clouds, leaving only the ones over islands you have not yet visited
05:55:22 <int-e> that seems useful for eventual completion
05:55:42 <int-e> and I made another friend
05:57:44 <int-e> What else is interesting... I've reached the 13 hours mark.
06:02:27 <shachaf> That's a lot more than my hours.
06:02:40 <shachaf> I should catch up in islands or at least in hours.
07:50:02 -!- rain1 has joined.
08:16:17 -!- earend1 has joined.
08:21:40 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:41:24 <b_jonas> day 5 is much simpler than day 4, but perhaps only because I'm familiar with this sort of problem
08:50:54 <Hooloovo0> so I'm on another channel where people are doing AoC, #cemetech on efnet
08:51:52 <Hooloovo0> they also have a "write something in a bunch of languages" challenge... which seems like exactly the kind of thing yall would be interested in
08:56:45 <int-e> b_jonas: it's worse, the input generator sucks
08:58:02 <int-e> (as mentioned earlier I didn't write any special code)
08:58:09 <b_jonas> int-e: the input generator for what?
08:58:51 <b_jonas> int-e: how so? doesn't it just generate an interval less one and shuffle it?
08:59:24 <int-e> b_jonas: try sort < input | sed s=.........== and see if you can see a pattern
09:00:03 <int-e> no, it has plenty of gaps
09:01:07 <b_jonas> int-e: what pattern? if you sort it you'll get them all in order, so they have to be consecutive numbers in binary.
09:01:27 <b_jonas> it has to be LRLRLRL... with one stumble in it
09:01:47 <b_jonas> but it's probably shuffled
09:02:05 <b_jonas> as for the gaps, the spec asks you to give the gap as a solution, and the one I got has exactly one gap, I verified that when solving
09:02:16 <b_jonas> no free seats on this airplane
09:02:38 <int-e> I didn't think the plane would be fully occupied
09:03:20 <int-e> okay now I'm even more disappointed
09:03:28 <b_jonas> int-e: the spec says "It's a completely full flight, so your seat should be the only missing boarding pass in your list."
09:04:11 <int-e> how do you even get on the plane without a boarding pass
09:04:54 <int-e> anyway, you're right, it's boring by specification, not by accident
09:05:32 <int-e> And I solved it by hand.
09:05:52 <int-e> (and sort and dc for conversion from binary)
09:06:57 <b_jonas> int-e: the story may have happened before 2001
09:07:38 <b_jonas> int-e: but even now, everyone knows how imperfect the security is in airports
09:07:45 <b_jonas> you can find stories about it on the internet
09:08:06 <int-e> Yeah it's largely security theater
09:08:47 <int-e> or commercial interest (the liquid restrictions make food vendors in the transit zone quite happy I'm sure)
09:09:30 <b_jonas> int-e: but to be precise, I think the protagonist lost their boarding pass in the long queuing corridor between the electronic boarding pass check and the airplane. an attendent at the airplane entrance looks at some of the boarding passes, but mostly to direct you to the right seat if you want, and at that point I think they let on anyone without a boarding pass
09:10:24 <b_jonas> or this is still in one of the foreign lands that Mario visits, with star coins and red star/dragon coins, and it works quite different from our world
09:10:49 <b_jonas> ok give me a second, Irregular is about to update
09:10:59 <b_jonas> I want to catch it in the first second
09:11:14 <b_jonas> yup, late by a few seconds as usual so I had to keep refreshing
09:12:07 <b_jonas> well, not really late, but a few seconds after the nominal update time which is given to a minute precision only
09:14:17 <b_jonas> and actually not even that anymore, because the FAQ no longer mentions the update time, only the forum and a news entry about moving it one hour earlier does
09:14:59 <b_jonas> that change really felt strange at first by the way, changing the reliable schedule that has been there for a decade and only broken a few times by accident and once deliberately during that
09:17:20 <b_jonas> Irregular is like 17 years old, it's crazy
09:17:49 <b_jonas> well, a bit less since it had years of hiatus
09:18:17 <b_jonas> the time of day when it and the other comics were published was unchanged for a very long time, even through the hiatus
09:24:38 -!- tromp_ has joined.
09:24:38 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:59:56 -!- TheLie has joined.
10:03:57 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:09:46 <HackEso> gray:Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
10:23:56 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:36:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
10:38:12 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:39:03 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79176 * Delta23 * (+697) finite state brainfuck idea
10:40:52 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79177&oldid=79176 * Delta23 * (+154) idea for infinite looping, would it change something?
10:42:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79178&oldid=79174 * Delta23 * (+29) add finite state brainfuck to lang list
10:43:29 -!- delta23 has joined.
10:52:00 -!- nfd9001 has joined.
11:04:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:27:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:32:36 <b_jonas> fungot, are you friends with any of the Ancient ones?
11:32:36 <fungot> b_jonas: the man spat on the ground and, after they've done it, though, complaining like badly oiled pumps and smelling like a thousand damp carpets. men in djeliba moved among them and occasionally hit them with the other scrap. keep ‘em separate. keep a pot special for it, and all you needed to boil an egg," said
11:45:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:56:28 -!- dingwat_ has joined.
11:57:24 -!- dingwat has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
11:57:25 -!- dingwat_ has changed nick to dingwat.
11:57:31 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
11:58:34 -!- izabera has joined.
12:31:06 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, so about that "usually the solution space is larger" comment, I was basing that on 2019, when it was true even for early days. This year is shaping to be somewhat different.
12:31:13 <fizzie> Also wrote my day 5 expecting there to be something about rows and columns separately in part 2, but there wasn't. Now I'm wondering whether to streamline that from `pass -> (row, col) -> ID` to `pass -> ID`. But I've got unit tests for the steps separately already.
12:33:08 <myname> convert F and L to 0 and B and R to 1, parse as binary
12:37:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: heh, yeah, this one was so easy I didn't even consider brute forcing the solution space without looking at the boarding slips, but I guess it would have been thematically appropriate, just trying to sit in every seat and see if I'm kicked out
12:38:55 <b_jonas> the first part was so quick that I didn't have time to wonder what the second part would have, plus the first part already basically gave away that you're looking at the boarding passes to find your seat that's missing from them, so it wasn't much of a surprise
12:39:37 <b_jonas> but admittedly I didn't know before that that it would be a single interval, with like all eight seats existing in all rows (except first and last), unlike on a real airplane
12:39:46 <b_jonas> this is like a one-dimensional airplane
12:41:18 <b_jonas> or a 21st century one: a discount airline with no first class section with fewer seats per row, because that's not their business model, if someone has money for first class they will buy it from an airline whose service is not so bad as theirs
12:41:20 <myname> i don't think it's more one-dimensional than a real airplane
12:45:13 <b_jonas> I still don't understand part of their business model: there are people who pay for the supposed privilage of boarding the airplane earlier. why? isn't that a hindrance? even the worst waiting room is more comfortable than an airplane, so I always try to get on the plane as late as possible, to spend the least time on it.
12:46:52 <b_jonas> at least that was the situation before 2020; I haven't exprienced airplane flight since then
12:49:15 <b_jonas> even selling the supposed privilage of choosing your seat seems weird to me. that one at least isn't a clear drawback, but I'm not paying for that, and typically get the good seats: the ones that are close to the aisle so I can get up easily, and not in the extra legroom rows, which means I can keep some of my luggage close, under the seat in front of me. this doesn't always work, I have been seated at
12:49:21 <b_jonas> the extra legroom emergency exit row once, but usually it does.
12:49:40 <b_jonas> but admittedly some people have very long legs, and for them the extra legroom rows may be an advantage
12:51:19 <myname> i am working in a software company for the aviation industry and never sat in a plane :D
12:51:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure how "there is" was an answer to what I said.
12:53:08 <fizzie> I think I took an intra-US flight on a plane that was kind of like that, except with 6 columns rather than 8.
12:53:31 <fizzie> Although it couldn't have been that one, because they had no seat reservations either.
12:54:55 <fizzie> (You get a boarding number based on how early you checked in and whether you paid extra to get a lower number, and then they just sort you in a queue based on that number and board in that order, and seats are first-come-first-served.)
12:55:53 <b_jonas> myname: and I'm working in a software company for the chemical industry, but never used the things that those chemical plants produce.
12:56:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, American flights work somewhat differently from European ones
12:58:12 <b_jonas> myname: and I sat on airplanes too many times
12:58:27 <b_jonas> and probably will, because these days it's too cheap
12:58:50 <myname> go so so, you may as well secure my job :S
12:59:37 <b_jonas> well, probably not during the pandemic
12:59:59 <b_jonas> but my mother will arrive home soon (next weekend), on airplane
13:18:13 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79179&oldid=71468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Resources */ deadlink
13:35:06 <Arcorann> Actually this airplane is really big - I can't think of any commercial plane that seats over 900 people
13:37:11 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79180&oldid=79173 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Hello, world! program */ implemented
13:37:40 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79181&oldid=79180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello, world! program */ total
13:40:59 <b_jonas> that part is a bit futuristic
13:41:42 <b_jonas> although I prefer a future where that won't be necessary because the vacuum train network that Elon Musk builds takes the bulk of the passenger traffic
13:43:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79182&oldid=79013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22633) rm some things
13:44:05 <fizzie> Wikipedia says you can in theory stick 853 passengers on an A380, which is pretty close.
13:44:48 <fizzie> "Other proposed variants included an A380-900 stretch – seating -- up to 960 passengers in an all-economy configuration --"
13:45:20 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79183&oldid=79177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) Headers, links, cats
13:54:56 <esowiki> [[Niblet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79184&oldid=68876 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Hello World */ cat
13:55:05 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:57:11 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79185&oldid=74613 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) m
14:01:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:02:55 -!- LKoen has joined.
14:13:15 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79186&oldid=73314 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Program structure */ at least partially sane
14:36:44 -!- j`ey has joined.
15:03:33 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:09:13 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:12:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:14:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Insanity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79187 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+227) /* Order of operations? */ new section
15:19:51 <b_jonas> fungot, what does the "S" in "SQL" stand for? suffering? or several, for how many different dialects there are?
15:19:51 <fungot> b_jonas: in the sudden silence. ' i really must be off, then. maybe you could... help us?"
15:33:17 <esowiki> [[Finite State Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79188&oldid=79183 * Delta23 * (+41) confirmed finite with inputs
15:39:16 -!- j`ey has left.
15:40:46 -!- MDude has joined.
15:49:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's not actually an "S", it's the Kryptonian symbol of hope, which just coincidentally happens to resemble the letter S of the Latin alphabet, and is therefore usually rendered using that for technical reasons.
15:55:25 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79189&oldid=78998 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+262) /* Other things */ [[Bfos]], [[Decision shrub]], [[Insanity]], [[Voxvy]], [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]]
16:00:10 <HackEso> [U+0405 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DZE]
16:00:21 <fizzie> I'm not an expert, maybe that's closer.
16:33:57 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79190&oldid=79186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Fibonacci sequence */ cats (Interpreter coming soon if User:A responds)
16:37:38 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79191&oldid=75640 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Variables */ of
16:42:05 <esowiki> [[Chafa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79192&oldid=66154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+165) cats/notice/stub
16:45:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:Yasser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79193&oldid=20830 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) see.also
16:45:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Yasser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79194&oldid=79193 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-128) Undo revision 79193 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])m
16:49:19 <esowiki> [[ClearBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79195&oldid=27131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220) /* External resources */ waybacks
16:50:14 <esowiki> [[ClearBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79196&oldid=79195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* External resources */ seeAlso()
16:51:40 <esowiki> [[Tbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79197&oldid=71006 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) headers, cat
16:56:12 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79198&oldid=75214 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementation */ catfix
17:13:17 -!- bcasiello has joined.
17:36:54 -!- arseniiv has joined.
17:42:18 <arseniiv> int-e: b_jonas: . o O ( Græy is an uncommon spelling of both. )
18:06:51 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:07:23 -!- tromp has joined.
18:15:14 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:26:58 -!- bcasiello has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:49:31 -!- TheLie has joined.
19:02:09 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
19:15:50 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
19:17:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:23:32 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
19:35:59 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
19:52:26 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79199&oldid=79094 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
20:17:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:36:53 -!- none30 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:40:35 -!- Discordian[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:05:14 -!- none30 has joined.
21:06:25 -!- Discordian[m] has joined.
21:27:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:37:42 -!- sprocklem has joined.
21:40:51 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
21:48:46 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:14:48 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79200&oldid=79146 * SoicBR * (-14)
22:59:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:07:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
23:41:14 -!- Arcorann has joined.
00:39:03 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79201&oldid=79168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Implementations */ wayback, list
00:51:39 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79202&oldid=71057 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello World */ lk
01:08:39 <b_jonas> this will be the first Christmas that I won't be celebrating while being in person together with my brother. it's a bit sad.
01:09:02 <b_jonas> we'll still have some internet stuff of course
01:28:53 <fizzie> Oddly enough, we've spent the last five Christmases here in the UK without meeting any family, but now we're planning on doing the video call thing, even though we could've done that any of the past years.
01:37:07 <b_jonas> it's been mixed for us, there were two non-consecutive years where we spent christmas at my brothers' in Sweden, which has the drawback of not being able to spend one day around christmas with my grandma
01:39:38 <zzo38> Someone who wishes to help for testing with Free Hero Mesh can compare with the behaviour of the EKS Hero Mesh; you will need the 16-bit Windows shareware version of Hero Defiant or Falling Hero (I think the 32-bit versions disable the class editor if you do not register, but the 16-bit versions still allow it to be used).
01:43:08 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:45:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:45:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
01:49:26 -!- imode has joined.
01:51:37 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit).
01:51:54 -!- imode has joined.
01:52:14 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit).
01:52:30 -!- imode has joined.
01:53:05 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit).
01:53:20 -!- imode has joined.
01:53:25 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit).
01:55:51 <zzo38> What exactly is "VCC+GIGICAR 1989 !!"? Some Amiga music files contain this as the title, and they are not all the same music.
01:56:32 -!- imode has joined.
01:57:27 <zzo38> (They do not all identify the same composers either)
02:03:09 <fizzie> The database says there are two Frenchpeople with those names, http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/author.php?id=3895 and http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/author.php?id=36020 -- so perhaps that's related somehow.
02:09:29 <zzo38> Yes, maybe it is related.
05:05:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:32:46 -!- adu has joined.
06:13:20 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
06:55:51 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:56:39 -!- xelxebar has joined.
07:53:04 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!).
07:53:27 -!- iovoid has joined.
08:08:27 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:13:28 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
08:31:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cybertelx * New user account
08:34:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79203&oldid=79164 * Cybertelx * (+238)
08:35:23 <esowiki> [[User:Cybertelx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79204 * Cybertelx * (+106) Created page with "Hi guys! I'm Cybertelx, the creator of a programming language known as Dick, published on npm as Dicklang."
09:07:57 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:16:16 <esowiki> [[Dick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79205 * Cybertelx * (+1757) dick
09:17:20 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79206&oldid=79205 * Cybertelx * (+63) added some clarification
09:21:27 <esowiki> [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79207&oldid=79206 * Cybertelx * (+106) added categories
09:22:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79208&oldid=79178 * Cybertelx * (+11)
09:23:02 <esowiki> [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79209&oldid=79207 * Cybertelx * (-28) remove joke lang
09:29:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:29:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:42:46 -!- delta23 has joined.
10:23:52 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
10:34:51 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:11:36 -!- Discordian[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:12:38 -!- none30 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:18:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:25:38 <int-e> wtf is up with all those languages without any form of control flow
11:27:19 <int-e> imode: are you ignoring esowiki? The latest addition is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dick which is about as terrible as it sounds, maybe more so.
11:27:23 -!- rain1 has joined.
11:27:49 <int-e> imode: I'm not blaming you, but in this case you lost relevant context :)
11:28:18 -!- Discordian[m] has joined.
11:28:22 <imode> it's less of a hard ignore, more "I just don't see it anymore".
11:28:25 <imode> my eyes glaze over it.
11:28:37 <delta23> why is that language in the TC category?
11:29:02 <imode> why did someone think that was a worthy addition.
11:29:07 <int-e> presumably cluelessness on part of the author
11:29:30 <int-e> and that may answer both questions, actually
11:31:01 <delta23> lots of low effort joke esolangs on the wiki
11:33:56 <esowiki> [[Pointless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79210&oldid=75241 * Int-e * (+0) speling of category
11:35:43 <esowiki> [[*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79211&oldid=75203 * Int-e * (+0) category spilling
11:37:19 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79212&oldid=77575 * Int-e * (-1) catypogory
11:38:29 <esowiki> [[QTTRPG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79213&oldid=77578 * Int-e * (-20) remove unpopulated category
11:39:17 <esowiki> [[Complack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79214&oldid=77804 * Int-e * (-20) remove non-category
11:39:49 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79215&oldid=77006 * Int-e * (-66) remove non-category
11:40:54 <esowiki> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79216&oldid=76511 * Int-e * (-66) remove non-category
11:42:42 <esowiki> [[Absurd Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79217&oldid=68937 * Int-e * (-38) remove non-category
11:43:07 <int-e> I guess that's the worst offenders from https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&offset=&limit=500
11:43:35 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:44:39 -!- none30 has joined.
11:44:47 <int-e> Not sure how I feel about graph-based... it could be viable actually if it were to encompass the graph rewriting ones
11:47:08 <esowiki> [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79218&oldid=79209 * Int-e * (-10) not TC
12:24:19 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
12:26:04 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:30:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RSG4908 * New user account
12:33:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79219&oldid=79203 * RSG4908 * (+295)
12:35:21 <esowiki> [[User:RSG4908]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79220 * RSG4908 * (+141) Created page with "Hello. I'm RSG4908. I currently do not have my own esolang yet, but I am currently at this hour, trying to come up with an esoteric language."
12:41:19 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the wiki is full of those. both ones with penis jokes https://esolangs.org/wiki/PenisScript https://esolangs.org/wiki/La_We%C3%A1 and stuff without control flow
12:41:19 <rain1> I might do last years aoc
12:41:23 <rain1> i keep hearing about the intcode
12:47:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skyespr * New user account
12:49:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79221&oldid=79219 * Skyespr * (+167) added Skyespr's introduction
12:51:40 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79222&oldid=77766 * Skyespr * (-190) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ removed MLA idea after making it
12:52:21 -!- TheLie has joined.
12:53:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79223&oldid=79208 * Skyespr * (+12) added MLang
12:56:32 <esowiki> [[MLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79224 * Skyespr * (+9024) Created page, added readme from github because I didn't feel like typing the whole thing again
13:00:53 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79225&oldid=79224 * Skyespr * (+31) formatting
13:02:32 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79226&oldid=79225 * Skyespr * (+2)
13:04:34 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79227&oldid=79226 * Skyespr * (+47)
13:11:34 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
13:13:50 -!- rain1 has joined.
13:22:24 <esowiki> [[UClang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79228 * RSG4908 * (+1411) Create UClang language page
13:24:16 <esowiki> [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79229&oldid=79228 * RSG4908 * (-74)
13:24:19 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79230&oldid=79227 * Skyespr * (+86) added output
13:24:42 -!- dionys has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1).
13:24:55 <b_jonas> day 6 of Aoc 2020 is easy enough too. but then, it could get more difficult any day.
13:24:56 -!- dionys has joined.
13:26:12 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79231&oldid=79230 * Skyespr * (+8) formatting
13:26:22 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79232&oldid=79089 * RSG4908 * (+13)
13:28:04 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79233&oldid=79229 * RSG4908 * (+10)
13:29:19 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79234&oldid=79231 * Skyespr * (-8)
13:31:43 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79235&oldid=79233 * RSG4908 * (+1)
13:32:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79236 * RSG4908 * (+130) Created page with "can we rename this page to UClang*? okthxbyte --~~~~"
13:33:32 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79237&oldid=79235 * RSG4908 * (+31)
13:33:43 -!- arseniiv has joined.
13:37:18 -!- earend1 has joined.
13:47:04 <esowiki> [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79238&oldid=79237 * RSG4908 * (+25)
13:47:14 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:47:50 -!- delta23 has joined.
13:50:15 <fizzie> I think I'm mostly unsatisfied by all the part twos being pretty much the same as the corresponding part ones so far.
13:53:10 <int-e> though I foolishly did today's union by concatenating strings
13:53:30 <int-e> so the difference is a tiny bit larger than it could be
13:58:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think they're the same. they sound similat but are always a bit harder to atually solve.
13:59:39 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think that's foolish
14:00:44 <b_jonas> and I still wonder what happens if a traveler answers no to all questions.
14:03:18 <int-e> ...oh, they specified the set of all questions... that corner case didn't come up.
14:08:18 <rain1> th e problem today did not excite me
14:08:27 <fizzie> The way I did today, literally the only difference between parts 1 and 2 was the choice of a boolean operator and initial value. And on day 3, part 2 was just "run part 1 five times". And on day 2, part 2 was arguably easier.
14:10:08 <fizzie> I liked most those puzzles last year where part 1 was solvable by just implementing the spec given in the calendar in the most straightforward way, but in part 2 that was obviously computationally infeasible, so you had to come up with something else. Unless you had overengineered part 1 already, of course.
14:12:39 <fizzie> https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/16 and https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/22 being prime examples (though non-prime numbers) of that kind of thing, except of course you presumably can't see part 2 if you didn't do last year.
14:13:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
14:14:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:15:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe you're better at guessing what the twist (second part) will be. I don't try to guess or make my first solution more complicated than it needs to be. today, I used one dictionary for the original, adding each letter, without bothering to do anything special between lines; for the twist I needed to use two dictionaries, the first collecting the letters of a line, the second intersecting the
14:15:53 <Arcorann> I agree, there haven't been any really challenging part 2s so far this year (day 4 was just tedious) -- I think we're all waiting for the difficulty to pick up
14:16:37 <int-e> FWIW, I realized that I only started AoC in the 10th day last year... so maybe that's why this year feels trivial so far
14:17:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: day 3 was the closest, though I personally converted for a one-pass read-compute to a two-pass read then compute solution, that wasn't really necessary. the first day needed to change from one loop with a dictionary to a nested loop with a dictionary, so definitely more complicated.
14:17:22 <b_jonas> day 2 indeed also barely changed.
14:18:19 <int-e> day 5 had identical code (none) :P
14:19:31 <fizzie> int-e: Mmmaybe. 2019 had the Intcode thing going on pretty early on, which was interesting in a different way, but it's true that e.g. day 4 2019 was very similar to this year so far.
14:20:21 <fizzie> And https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/6 was pretty simple though I generally like the graph-y ones more.
14:20:51 <b_jonas> int-e: for day 5, I had one line of code for the original (to convert from binary to decimal), but like ten lines of code for the twist
14:21:40 <int-e> b_jonas: I just inspected the sorted list manually
14:22:13 <int-e> and I'm not sure I'd have been faster writing code... probably not
14:22:24 <fizzie> I was going to say, it's quite possible the shell oneliner "solution" would've been the one for the leaderboards.
14:22:26 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but then how do you get from a binary number to a decimal number that you enter in the field?
14:22:39 <b_jonas> int-e: inspecting the sorted list would work, sure
14:22:49 <int-e> dc <<<2i1010101101p
14:23:01 <b_jonas> I didn't do that because I wanted to know that there's only one number missing
14:23:34 <b_jonas> I generally want to test and verify that the data is like what I expect. it doesn't matter for AoC, but for things I do at work it *does* help.
14:23:44 <b_jonas> because the data is very often not what it's supposed to be
14:23:45 <int-e> I picked the first gap in the list and submitted
14:23:53 <b_jonas> yes, I guess that makes sense for AoC
14:24:42 <int-e> in retrospect I should've converted to decimal, sorted, and then looked for the gap... might have saved half a minute because scanning decimals is easier
14:25:02 <int-e> (for no better reason than familiarity)
14:25:21 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
14:25:33 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it might be easier to find the gap in the last column of binary than in decimal
14:25:41 <b_jonas> since it's just two digits alternating
14:27:21 <int-e> Today somebody did both parts in 1m27s... I wonder what kind of automation they have
14:27:27 <int-e> and what sort of templates
14:28:11 <b_jonas> I didn't sort for the original btw, because the letters don't sort naturally. F=0 B=1 sorts backwards, L=0 R=1 sorts forwards. I just grepped for ^BBB and a few more greps later I found the last one.
14:28:30 <b_jonas> a sort could work if you tr first.
14:28:46 <fizzie> I imagine something like a Python repl with a few utilities like "read blank-line-separated paragraphs" would make a competitive AoC environment, at least for the simple ones.
14:29:00 <b_jonas> int-e: I guess you could at least automatically download the input from the webpage
14:29:22 <b_jonas> plus you could do way less verification than I do and submit the first attempt at an answer without checking
14:29:50 <b_jonas> but that only helps for a speed competition, which I don't care much about, for the real world work guessing wouldn't work well
14:34:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:34:21 -!- rain1 has joined.
14:39:22 <b_jonas> by the way, in task 4 twist, several people have passports where the issue year or expiry year or both are many years before their birth year, but all those passports are denied in the twist for other reasons
14:39:45 <b_jonas> but nobody brought a passport that expired before it was issued
14:40:40 <b_jonas> this mostly happens in passports with the birth year in the future, but there's one with byr:1983 iyr:1958 eyr:1979
14:41:21 <b_jonas> the people who bring that sort of fake document should probably get arrested and questioned, not merely denied their entry to the airplane
14:45:29 <b_jonas> many people also have nonexistant country codes, but the spec explicitly says to ignore that, so that's fine
14:45:48 <b_jonas> in fact actual country codes seem to be rare
14:59:17 <int-e> fizzie: you're definitely right though that Intcode made last year's AoC more likely to appeal to esolangers. And we did discuss the power of Intcode quite a bit back then.
15:03:15 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
15:16:47 <HackEso> random-pizza? No such file or directory
15:18:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:19:49 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:20:07 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
15:23:51 -!- user24 has joined.
15:24:49 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:27:22 <b_jonas> fungot, does Horn Drill bypass normal damage calculation rules?
15:27:22 <fungot> b_jonas: ' i still don't like it," said ridcully. he scratched his chin with his free hand into a grinder? this place deserves vorbis! sheep deserve to be caught.
15:43:16 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:45:38 -!- delta23 has joined.
15:47:12 -!- MDude has joined.
15:47:20 <fizzie> int-e: b_jonas: Just to put some numbers on this, here's the median time in seconds to get one/two stars for the top 100s: http://ix.io/2GRX
15:47:23 <fizzie> The big numbers on 2020 day 1 are I think a problem when releasing the puzzle (that's why it awarded no points), and I think there's been some of those in the past too.
16:02:22 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:08:33 <esowiki> [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79239&oldid=79238 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) wikilink, cat, /
16:09:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79240&oldid=79236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+258) reply
16:15:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow, that's a big table
16:23:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79241&oldid=79182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-219) Minification
16:23:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79242&oldid=79241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+134) /* weivrevo egaugnaL */ min
16:24:13 <esowiki> [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79243&oldid=79239 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */ tb
16:25:52 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79244&oldid=79126 * Aspwil * (+853) /* Code examples */
16:26:05 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79245&oldid=79244 * Aspwil * (-1) /* Add 2 numbers */
16:30:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aspwil * uploaded "[[File:NDBALL.jpg]]"
16:30:10 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79247&oldid=79245 * Aspwil * (+130) /* Add 2 numbers */
16:30:38 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79248&oldid=79247 * Aspwil * (+1) /* Add 2 numbers */
16:32:50 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79249&oldid=79218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) headers, cat, 69, not TC
16:33:21 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79250&oldid=79234 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* design parameters: */ list
16:34:06 <fizzie> Along those lines, here's also the twistiness rating for each day: http://ix.io/2GSu
16:34:12 <fizzie> Defined as the ratio between total think-time spent by the first 100 people to get two stars vs. to get one star.
16:34:18 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79251&oldid=79108 * Mantita223 * (+136) /* Syntax */
16:34:36 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79252&oldid=79250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Hello world */ code
16:34:49 <fizzie> So I guess it's not really that different from previous years, and in fact day 4 of 2020 was above-average twisty.
16:34:49 <esowiki> [[Yo!nk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79253&oldid=79251 * Mantita223 * (+12) /* Hello World */
16:35:09 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79254&oldid=79252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) Undo revision 79252 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) (was this literal?)
16:35:33 <fizzie> What was day 4 again? Oh, right, the passport verification, with the strict rules for part 2. Makes sense, I guess.
16:36:03 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79255&oldid=79254 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) /* output */ CATS
16:38:12 <fizzie> The numbers also suggest year 2019 was unusually twisty (median twistiness of 2.14, compared to 1.23, 1.53, 1.70 and 1.81 for 2015-2018 and 1.76 for 2020 so far), which might be why my expectations are amiss.
16:38:59 <fizzie> Can't argue with science. (Having some numbers equals science. (I learned that from some recent election lawsuits.))
16:42:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: I wonder if we could guess from these numbers that day 7 will have the first harder task
16:44:17 <fizzie> That does look a little like a trend, from eyeballing the numbers. (Should've probably plotted these instead, because eyeballs are more compatible with pixels than numbers.)
16:45:26 <fizzie> Also, I didn't include today because I thought "I couldn't possibly, the day is still ongoing", but it's not like the leaderboard is going to change.
16:46:11 -!- Guest26718 has joined.
16:46:53 -!- Guest26718 has left.
16:50:45 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2GSF with day 6 included.
16:58:49 <int-e> so still in normal range, high variance.
16:59:23 <int-e> (the first couple of days in 2015 don't count, they mostly indicate a certain lack of popularity)
17:00:01 <int-e> shachaf: I finished Hiding Spot
17:00:41 <int-e> shachaf: 609 is one of the hardest puzzles in all the game, though there are one or two more of comparable difficulty, to me.
17:01:24 <int-e> shachaf: And there is one final puzzle after the 54 you can access at any time.
17:06:29 <int-e> (Oh ambiguity. There are 54 levels that you can access from the beginning. The final one unlocks when you've completed the other ones.)
17:06:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: is day 1 always on --12-01 of the year given?
17:10:41 <b_jonas> I find it a bit strange that there are 25 days, not 25, from --12-01 to --12-24 inclusive. is there an ISO standard advent calendar or something?
17:12:02 <int-e> cultural difference
17:14:12 <int-e> Or maybe just a matter of taste... 'Many Advent calendars take the form of a large rectangular card with "windows",[5] one for each day of December leading up to and including Christmas Eve (December 24) or Christmas Day (December 25).'
17:15:43 <int-e> Meanwhile, in Germany: "Nach 1945 setzte sich endgültig der Kalender beginnend vom 1. Dezember mit 24 Türchen durch."
17:16:02 <int-e> Always trust the Germans to standardize all the important things.
17:16:27 <myname> int-e: well, but more often than not, there are german and international rules for something
17:16:40 <myname> like jugger or quidditch
17:16:58 <myname> there are german chess rules?
17:16:58 <int-e> myname: Yeah I wasn't sure whether US advent calendars were universally 25 days long.
17:18:07 <int-e> One point in favor is that they tend to celebrate the 25th. One point against is that 6x4 is an aesthetically more pleasing rectangle compared to a 5x5 square. I mean, in the interest of overthinking it.
17:18:30 <b_jonas> probably. chess had a lot of variant rules, some of their differences are just phrasing and bookkeeping, some were bugs that got patched away when a player first used them in a tournament (like the bug when you used to be able to promote a pawn to an opponent's piece), some are just stupid rules that aren't used in practice (like the dead game rules)
17:18:30 <myname> as a german, 24 is obviously the right way to go
17:19:00 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not 6x4 because the last day gets a larger door
17:19:01 <myname> why would i ever change my figure to an opponent one?
17:19:08 <int-e> b_jonas: not always
17:19:39 <b_jonas> myname: because in some very rare cases that lets you win an endgame
17:19:40 <int-e> myname: because then the opponent can't capture it
17:19:55 <b_jonas> give a check with very few pieces remaining
17:20:08 <int-e> and there's less likelyhood of stalemate, right
17:20:24 <b_jonas> the internet probably has an example
17:20:38 <int-e> of those rule gaps, 0-0-0-0 is my favorite
17:22:27 <int-e> castling extra long. the rule phrasing it's based on stipulates that if the king hasn't moved and the rook hasn't moved, the king may castle by making two steps towards the rook while the rook moves to the crossed square... provided all intermediate squares are empty and the king is not in check before, after, or on the square it crossed.
17:22:28 <myname> oh, there was also castling forwards
17:22:46 <int-e> so... you promote the king pawn to a rook... has the rook moved?
17:23:28 <b_jonas> can that lead the king to a point that's not aligned to a square if the rook isn't lined up nicely?
17:23:42 <b_jonas> because it would be hard to check it then
17:23:56 <int-e> also I've made that text up, trying to capture the important points
17:24:07 -!- TheLie has joined.
17:24:50 <int-e> It's been a while since I learned about this. IIRC this rule interpretation was cooked up for a chess problem; it never happened in an actual game.
17:26:26 <b_jonas> yeah, those rules are found more often by puzzle makers than by players
17:27:34 <b_jonas> some rulesets also have silly bugs where it says that once the game ends, you can't change the result if an illegal move is later discovered, so you can just quickly make an illegal move that gives a checkmate, and unless the opponent is fast enough to call an umpire during your move, you've won
17:27:40 <b_jonas> you can do that right as your first move
17:27:52 <int-e> Oh I think I need more zeros.
17:28:52 <int-e> 0-0-0-0-0-0-0 (if the number of zeros represents how many squares the rook moves, which is the case for 0-0 and 0-0-0)
17:28:57 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't like the zeros at all, they're remains from old forms of notation. just denote castling by the logical Kb1, Kf1, Kb8, or Kf8
17:29:28 <int-e> I... like them, mostly
17:29:46 <int-e> to the extent that I care at all, which isn't very much
17:29:48 <b_jonas> int-e: plus if it represents how many squares the rook moves, you may have to use 0 zeroes and -1 hyphens in Fischer random chess
17:30:26 <int-e> that would be fun.
17:31:15 <int-e> Anyway, I like that castling stands out in a game record.
17:31:29 <b_jonas> also the moves are Kc1, Kg1, Kc8, Kg8 because I'm stupid
17:32:25 <int-e> Right. Which I would've noticed if I was familiar with chess notation :P
17:32:48 <b_jonas> but yeah, the notation with the king also doesn't work in Fischer random chess, because it may be ambigious with a normal king move
17:32:51 <int-e> s/familiar/fluent/
17:33:21 <b_jonas> maybe you should write both? K0-0-0c1 or something
17:34:59 <b_jonas> the 0 takes the place of an x that indicates capture
17:52:30 <zzo38> Why was castling notation written as "0-0" and "0-0-0" anyways?
17:57:45 <zzo38> Also, Advent starts on Sunday, so why do they call it that even though it does not start on Sunday?
18:06:43 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:40:02 <kmc> "like the bug when you used to be able to promote a pawn to an opponent's piece" <-- lmao
18:40:12 <kmc> is there a situation where this is advantageous?
18:40:57 <kmc> oh, I see there is some discussion of this
18:42:57 <kmc> 0-0-0 ought to be a type of steam engine
18:43:00 <kmc> but probably not a very useful one
18:47:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:50:24 <fizzie> Finnish advent calendars definitely have 24 doors.
18:50:35 <fizzie> But we do the presents thing on the 24th as well.
18:51:25 <fizzie> The last day tends to get double doors.
18:52:08 <fizzie> And often it's not a regular pattern, since part of the fun is trying to find the next number, and that gets trickier when they're not in a grid but instead hidden away in natural edges of the picture.
18:57:57 -!- LKoen has joined.
19:14:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:16:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
19:16:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
19:16:42 <esowiki> [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79256&oldid=78715 * Tetrapyronia * (-8)
19:21:52 <kmc> that's cute
19:22:04 <kmc> you do regular xmas presents on the 24th? or something else?
19:23:53 <zzo38> Yes there are situations where it is an advantage to promote to opponent's piece, such as to prevent another opponent's piece from occupying it, and possibly also to avoid stalemate in some situations. I think some even older versions of the rules said that promotion is optional, and did not say that you are not allowed to promote to a king.
19:24:53 <kmc> i was wondering about that too
19:25:08 <kmc> having multiple kings seems disadvantageous
19:25:21 <kmc> because you'd be obliged to respond if either is in check, and you'd lose if either is in checkmate?
19:25:24 <kmc> but maybe that's not how it works
19:25:46 <kmc> maybe these things would only apply to your last king
19:27:53 <zzo38> Apparently once (I don't know if it is true) someone who did not know that promotion to king is disallowed did so, and opponent's next move was to checkmate both kings simultaneously.
19:57:30 <fizzie> Regular presents, yes. Whatever that means.
19:58:33 <kmc> in my family we did regular christmas presents on the morning of the 25th, as is typical in the US, but each kid also got a book for a present on the evening of the 24th
19:58:45 <kmc> which I think was just a tradition of our family and not a particularly common thing
19:59:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:59:15 <fizzie> That all reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIj8NphrAFI
20:01:22 <b_jonas> "0-0-0 ought to be a type of steam engine" or a football strategy when all players except one got the red card
20:01:44 <b_jonas> also not a very useful one
20:02:06 <kmc> we also did trick-or-treating on October 30th, not 31st
20:02:16 <kmc> "Beggar's Night"
20:02:20 <kmc> that's a thing in certain parts of the Midwest
20:03:07 <fizzie> We do trick-or-treating on Palm Sunday around Easter, curiously enough.
20:03:12 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virvonta
20:04:10 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
20:05:17 <fizzie> (Maybe not exactly the same, but closest we used to have, really. Although maybe these days they do a more Halloweeny thing too.)
20:34:22 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:53:43 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:01:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:02:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
21:02:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:02:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:07:00 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:11:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:26:26 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:33:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:54:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
22:01:48 <fizzie> Mostly as an excuse to use Altair outside the context of Google Colab: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/
22:02:11 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:09:15 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:10:09 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:35 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:19:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:33:51 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:37:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:01:49 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:27:56 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
00:00:26 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:01:06 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:10:56 -!- delta23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:11:14 -!- delta23 has joined.
00:43:31 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently Erich Friedman's periodic table of mathematicians https://erich-friedman.github.io/periodic/ suffered some link rot between its state in 2011 "http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/periodictable/ and when it got moved to github in 2020-08
00:43:35 <b_jonas> https://github.com/erich-friedman/erich-friedman.github.io/commit/b317aa1ecbf9cf43ad8dee9c1a4c81db29ecfb2d#diff-a8f9b083bb67e1d94f586b59296004debb997e79367a4d182d31487f157c543d
00:44:11 <b_jonas> in the sense that some of the HTML pages have been renamed, and the old name points to a different bibliography now
00:44:39 <b_jonas> so it's not easy to find a bibliography even if you know the old url and the name of the mathematicians whose bibliography it is
00:47:11 <b_jonas> (also he has .DS_Store committed to the github -- apparently this file is the equivalent of windows's desktop.ini , the file in which file explorer stores folder-specific settings)
01:10:48 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
01:41:47 -!- earend1 has joined.
01:44:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:44:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
01:54:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * RSG4908 * moved [[UClang]] to [[UClang*]]: Add star to make sure someone doesn't confuse it with https://github.com/izuzanak/uclang
01:54:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * RSG4908 * moved [[Talk:UClang]] to [[Talk:UClang*]]: Add star to make sure someone doesn't confuse it with https://github.com/izuzanak/uclang
02:02:03 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79261&oldid=79257 * RSG4908 * (+7) Add table of contents
02:06:56 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79262&oldid=79003 * RSG4908 * (+132) Add UClang* example
02:29:53 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79263&oldid=79261 * RSG4908 * (+157)
02:30:13 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79264&oldid=79263 * RSG4908 * (+0) /* Instructions */
02:39:05 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79265&oldid=79264 * RSG4908 * (+76)
02:39:32 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79266&oldid=79265 * RSG4908 * (+1) /* Implementations */
02:58:20 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:37:49 -!- arseniiv has joined.
03:48:54 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
05:21:37 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:22:24 <int-e> fizzie: ah, the graph based one is back
05:35:46 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:08:51 -!- Cale has joined.
06:45:46 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79267 * Tetrapyronia * (+1649) a new language i guess
06:47:00 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79268&oldid=79138 * Tetrapyronia * (+65) Added Sadako
06:48:02 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79269&oldid=79268 * Tetrapyronia * (+1) Fixed alphabetization
06:48:35 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79270&oldid=79199 * Tetrapyronia * (+26)
06:49:03 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79271&oldid=79267 * Tetrapyronia * (+2)
06:51:12 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:55:32 -!- lambdabot has joined.
06:56:22 <int-e> Hmm, Sadako... cute concept, but sadly, there's no way to refer to new points.
06:57:42 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:02:32 -!- tromp has joined.
07:04:38 <shachaf> int-e: Back to Hiding Spot.
07:04:57 <shachaf> I was hoping I'd get back to 609 and just immediately figure it out in a few minutes, but no, it's still tricky.
07:05:04 <int-e> shachaf: beware of the monsters
07:06:13 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-230533_3840x2160.png -- not the solution. :-(
07:07:21 <shachaf> It also triggers a bug (?) when you stand up. The chairs rises with you, so it's floating.
07:07:53 <int-e> Hmm I didn't encounter any bugs here...
07:08:31 <int-e> but I don't think that I've even tested that particular case
07:08:33 <shachaf> I mean, not a game-breaking bug.
07:08:47 <shachaf> I also had a bug several times where you get embedded into furniture.
07:08:54 <int-e> (sitting below an upright table)
07:09:05 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-11-30-012225_3840x2160.png
07:10:02 <shachaf> It happened at least three times to me with various furniture in various places.
07:10:25 <int-e> I never ran into anything like it.
07:10:40 <int-e> We may be playing different versions of the game though; I downloaded it from itch.io
07:11:08 <shachaf> I'm using the Steam version.
07:11:25 <int-e> I was also running it under Windows, but it's hard to imagine that wine would make it fail in this way.
07:11:54 <int-e> So maybe a new bug :P
07:12:00 <shachaf> I guess that's two extra bugs.
07:12:55 <int-e> well the other one might still be there
07:13:04 <int-e> or s/still/already/
07:14:58 <shachaf> I thought that 8 was the bug count.
07:19:04 <shachaf> Anyway if you were never even standing under a table like, then presumably I'm not on the right track at all.
07:19:39 <shachaf> I guess as long as I'm getting into situations I haven't been in before, at least I'm making some sort of forward progress.
07:19:48 <shachaf> I managed to stack a table on top of another table.
07:24:05 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/609a.png ... looks fine
07:24:46 <shachaf> If you crouch and stand back up, it doesn't float?
07:25:06 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
07:25:09 <int-e> shachaf: yep, tried that
07:27:24 <int-e> and I've definitely crouched inder a table and stood up, lifting it, so the second screenshot looks terrible
07:27:46 <shachaf> Yes, that doesn't happen reproducibly.
07:27:53 <shachaf> Or, I mean, I haven't figured out what causes it.
07:28:01 -!- sprocklem has joined.
07:28:09 <shachaf> And I *think* when I pressed undo and took the same action it didn't happen a second time, though I'm not confident.
07:29:07 <int-e> hmm, there doesn't seem to be a changelog :-/
07:29:25 <int-e> (well, I haven't found any)
07:30:28 <shachaf> It's probably a subtle difference in the implementation of the Win32 API that WINE gets wrong.
07:31:06 <int-e> but... shouldn't this part be purely handled by game logic without Win32 API interference...
07:31:47 <int-e> that's the part that irritates me
07:32:05 <shachaf> I mean, I was saying a clearly false thing there.
07:32:27 <shachaf> I don't even know if it's using WINE. Linux is listed as an official platform in Steam.
07:33:14 <shachaf> https://coreymartin.itch.io/hiding-spot-ld-jam-version says it's implemented with Unity. I don't know whether the full game is.
07:34:07 <int-e> it could be something mundane then, like C/C++ code that relies on undefined behavior in one place.
07:34:37 <shachaf> Just now: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-233408_3840x2160.png
07:34:46 <int-e> I wonder why there isn't a Linux version on itch.io then.
07:35:12 <int-e> shachaf: after pulling it in from the right?
07:35:23 <shachaf> I *think* the last key I pressed was right.
07:35:35 <shachaf> Because undo brought me to the corner.
07:35:43 <int-e> right? you walked into the box?
07:36:06 <int-e> I've definitely not experienced any glitches like that.
07:36:41 <shachaf> I'm vaguely remembering that's how the table screenshot from above happened too, actually, just walking into it.
07:36:49 <int-e> and it would be rather annoying... and game-breaking because it'll allow weird solutions to puzzles
07:37:24 <shachaf> Well, game-breaking in that it allows you to cheat.
07:37:40 <int-e> sure, you can call it a cheat
07:37:44 <shachaf> Which I don't mind in general. But it's certainly a bug.
07:39:05 <shachaf> This is the floating I was talking about, by the way: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-233839_3840x2160.png
07:39:25 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, so I pictured it correctly.
07:39:34 <int-e> shachaf: Man that must be annoying to play.
07:39:48 <shachaf> I don't think this breaks any solutions, though.
07:40:07 <int-e> yeah the floating table is *probably* harmless.
07:40:22 <int-e> But walking through boxes without pushing them isn't, of course.
07:40:56 <shachaf> Yes, but it only happens rarely.
07:41:01 <int-e> Well, harmless for solutions. It messes with building an internal model for the puzzle mechanics.
07:41:20 <shachaf> So it doesn't excuse me not solving this puzzle by now.
07:41:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:41:32 <shachaf> I think I have the correct model for how everything behaves at this point.
07:41:56 <int-e> I think what makes 609 hard is that basically every floor square could be a hiding spot
07:42:12 <int-e> so the usual approach of figuring out where to go and then working towards that goal doesn't work
07:42:56 <int-e> And, of course, the tables are kind of hard to visualize properly.
07:52:20 -!- tromp has joined.
07:52:39 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, turntables, or turning tables... there must be a GOOD pun in this.
07:53:25 <int-e> I guess technically it's more tipping and pushing tables.
07:54:12 <HackEso> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
07:54:33 <int-e> Oh an inside joke.
07:55:39 <shachaf> Oh, it's set up not to hilight me. Very considerate.
07:56:17 <shachaf> OK, I just walked through furniture again.
07:56:30 <shachaf> This time it was a table that was on its side, so I could have gotten to that state anyway.
08:02:19 <shachaf> 708 is making me question my model, on the other hand, hmm.
08:07:24 <int-e> no clue which one that is
08:10:44 <shachaf> I don't want to be spookled.
08:11:42 <int-e> shachaf: don't worry, the monsters are just in your head
08:12:26 <int-e> (How is that supposed to be reassuring? :-P)
08:14:30 <HackEso> identity function:The identity function is a mockingbird. \ mockingbird:mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably. \ patent:Patent is an adjective which means that something is painfully obvious. Often used to rightfully mock people that do not see it.
09:13:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 0xFF * New user account
09:22:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79272&oldid=79221 * 0xFF * (+479) /* Introductions */
09:23:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:24:28 <esowiki> [[User:0xFF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79273 * 0xFF * (+477) Created page with "uw:1,1;wm:1;am:2;am:4;at;uw:1,0;uw:2:0;uw:4,0;uw:1,1;uw:2,1;uw:5,1;uw:7,1;at;uw:1,0;uw:2,0;uw:5,0;uw:7,0;uw:1,1;uw:2,1;uw:4,1;uw:5,1;at;at;uw:6,1;uw:7,1;at;uw:0,0;uw:1,0;uw:2,..."
09:33:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79274&oldid=79242 * 0xFF * (-28346)
09:35:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:35:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:44:42 -!- LKoen has joined.
09:44:58 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:02:33 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
10:04:56 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:22:53 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:23:13 -!- xelxebar has joined.
10:33:07 <esowiki> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79275&oldid=79255 * Skyespr * (+4)
10:39:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bog'riquet De FerChef * New user account
10:49:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79276&oldid=79272 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+335) /* Introductions */
10:53:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79277&oldid=79276 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+137) /* Introductions */ forgot signature
10:57:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Braincopter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79278 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+116) /* About pixel extraction (65536 * R + 256 * G + B) */ new section
11:11:56 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79279&oldid=79266 * RSG4908 * (+124)
11:29:32 <b_jonas> hey guys, how old is progressive JPEG? en.Wikipedia only says "When progressive JPEGs are received by programs that do not support them (such as versions of Internet Explorer before Windows 7)[47] the software displays the image only after it has been completely downloaded." but I know the grandmaphone that I first bought a few years ago for my grandma doesn't display them at all.
11:31:01 <b_jonas> It's just that I was wondering about image formats, and how JPEG is really old, and how after the failure of jpeg2000, and how we really need a new one, and how google's webp might finally be able to break the deadlock,
11:31:40 <b_jonas> and then I realized that "JPEG is so old" is not entirely fair when I really rely on progressive JPEGs and how they can compress much better than baseline JPEGs because they can use different Huffman tables for different progressive steps.
11:32:27 <b_jonas> I don't really use them for being "progressive" in the sense that you can decode them in lower quality from a prefix of the file, but I am using them for better compression.
11:33:09 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently progressive encoding is supposed to be part of "baseline jpeg". then I don't know why that phone doesn't support it
11:33:21 <b_jonas> There was also an issue with embedding such jpegs into pdf I think
11:33:28 <b_jonas> so the grandmaphone is not the only broken case
11:35:15 <b_jonas> apparently I can't find out if it's specified in the original 1992 JPEG spec, because it's an ISO standard and "https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-T.81" says "This text was produced through a joint activity with ISO and IEC. According to the agreement with our partners, this document is only available through payment."
11:35:25 <b_jonas> wow, standards that you have to pay for are so useful
11:38:31 <b_jonas> mind you, the standard isn't even really necessary, in the sense of https://xkcd.com/971/ , because you can do all the same things without a standard (sell something for much more money by stating it conforms to standars without the customer being able to verify that easily) by just referring to "current industry best practice" or the euphemism "current industry standard" which means the same.
11:39:39 <b_jonas> btw apparently each AoC day has an alliterating name
11:42:33 <b_jonas> wait wait, are banks actually allowed to advertise loans as targeted to businesses in trouble, as opposed to targeted to individuals in trouble or businesses trying to grow?
11:43:47 <b_jonas> or are they not allowed but doing it anyway when the current government happens to be on their side of politics?
11:54:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79280&oldid=64263 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+221) /* Language origin */ new section
12:06:22 <b_jonas> it doesn't looks like webp took hold yet
12:10:07 <b_jonas> Wikimedia Commons has 160 TB of jpeg, 69 TB of tiff (wow), 4 TB of png, but less than a gigabyte of webp. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaStatistics
12:17:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brain:D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79281 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+500) /* Token identification */ new section
12:19:51 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah. Was surprised at how rudimentary the graph utilities my Go solutions from last year had. I guess the problems were just never quite exactly the same, and Go isn't such a great language for abstraction, so didn't end up with general DFS/BFS/shortest-path utilities.
12:20:43 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:20:53 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html suggests day 7 *was* a bump up in difficulty, but not as much of a one than in previous years. Or else the contest has just gotten more popular and/or the people on the leaderboards have improved their tools.
12:20:58 -!- spruit11 has joined.
12:22:07 <int-e> fizzie: and I used KISS and just used a iteration until a fixed point is reached
12:22:25 <b_jonas> no! darn it, don't spoil it yet
12:22:32 <b_jonas> I haven't solved day 7 yet
12:22:45 <fungot> int-e: the breath of god. ' it all begins to make sense of the presence, for some strange reason and in any case.
12:22:54 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:23:00 <fizzie> fungot: Some proper long-form spam?
12:23:00 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i will use this important time to help end the spiral of violence which algeria is experiencing political crisis, as you describe it, i quite understand that the criteria for adjusting to the market throughout the union.
12:23:06 <fizzie> Shorter than I expected.
12:28:42 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:29:06 <int-e> fungot: lovely spam!
12:29:07 <fungot> int-e: mr president, we would all love to see: a shorter working week, correctly carried out, and the proposed limit value of 0.1 ppm would be too many control centres is nonsense. last year 390 000 people applied for asylum in a member state and we have to acknowledge that undoubtedly we will also continue to be permitted for several years now. i would also like to emphasise once again how much the european union
12:29:13 <int-e> that's more like it
12:29:40 <int-e> https://github.com/oskarsve/ms-teams-rce ... sigh ... Electron, what a grand idea.
12:33:20 <fizzie> We would all love to see a shorter working week, but 0.1 ppm is just too short.
12:33:57 <fizzie> I take it that means you work for... about 60 milliseconds a week.
12:39:47 <int-e> that'll raise a lot of complaints about the daily commute
12:40:48 <int-e> that number doesn't look familiar at all :)
12:45:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Shorten your Brainfuck code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79282 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+168) Created page with "What the brainf*er are those. --~~~~"
12:46:28 <int-e> hmm... driving at 1 nanoparsec per fortnight
12:47:06 <int-e> `` units 'nanoparsec per fortnight' 'mph'
12:47:08 <HackEso> * 57.064023 \ / 0.017524176
12:48:14 -!- MDude has joined.
12:50:15 <int-e> I also have a hard time spelling "fortnight" correctly.
12:50:53 <int-e> Because of that stupid video game (that I've never played but watched a bit on youtube.)
12:52:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
13:20:04 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79283&oldid=76121 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) m
13:23:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:31:46 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79284&oldid=69175 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) link
13:32:06 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79285&oldid=79284 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* External Links */ h
13:42:01 -!- Arcorann has joined.
13:44:23 -!- LKoen_ has joined.
13:47:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:48:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:50:48 -!- xelxebar has joined.
13:54:40 <b_jonas> oh jesus. yesterday we mentioned the bugs in former specifications in chess. and now I'm reading back a forum discussion about how in D&D 3.5 the rules don't seem to clearly claim that an object animated with the "Animate object" spell is a creature, even though the rules are seemingly written as if they wanted to make it a creature.
13:55:26 <b_jonas> but then it turns out that there is a rule that claims that, we just didn't find it at first
13:59:45 <b_jonas> and then that other potential bug that an epic sorcerer can research epic spells that are very much underpowered so they're never worth to actually cast, but that have a negative XP cost to research, so they can just research it without ever casting them and gain unlimited XP for free. (the hard part is of course becoming an epic spellcaster in first place, for which you need 21 XLs and 19 Cha.)
14:00:53 <b_jonas> and then you can spend that XP to research and cast overpowered epic spells of course.
14:04:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:10:46 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:24:07 -!- Melvar has joined.
14:35:47 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79286&oldid=79271 * Tetrapyronia * (+9)
14:39:25 -!- rain1 has joined.
14:57:28 -!- bilal has joined.
14:59:02 * bilal is happy to join this channel
15:02:15 -!- bilal has left ("Leaving").
15:05:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:23:17 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
15:25:40 <arseniiv> (what else is usually there in twos, chopsticks?)
15:28:22 <b_jonas> "that'll raise a lot of complaints about the daily commute" => what, do you mean like all the color-coded bags that you have to buy?
15:30:22 <arseniiv> int-e: are they chiral though?
15:30:43 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think that depends on the twins
15:30:44 <arseniiv> I thought cherries may be in threes or ones?..
15:31:39 <b_jonas> they may be, they're only *usually* in twos
15:32:59 <arseniiv> now I wonder if there is some name for all non-thumb digits as a whole
15:33:10 <arseniiv> they they will be in a pair with a thumb
15:33:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: some call it "fingers"
15:33:17 <int-e> arseniiv: I want to say dancers, but that requires two twos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutu_(clothing)
15:33:38 <b_jonas> but I just suggest "second to fifth digits inclusive"
15:34:19 <b_jonas> well, it depends on whether you count your first toe as a thumb
15:34:33 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I mean, not each of them by itself, but all at once. This even has a crumb of merit to go with mittens
15:35:06 <arseniiv> hm cat : kitten = mat : mitten?..
15:51:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:55:28 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79287&oldid=44808 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+2) /* Language overview */
17:41:10 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79288&oldid=79286 * Tetrapyronia * (+56) Added command
17:47:58 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:59:35 -!- spruit11 has joined.
18:51:35 <esowiki> [[File talk:PureFolders HelloWorld.png]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79289 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+228) /* Column parent matching */ new section
18:53:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think it's more like bat : bitten
18:55:32 -!- LKoen_ has changed nick to LKoen.
19:05:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:06:42 -!- xelxebar has joined.
19:12:18 -!- xelxebar_ has joined.
19:15:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:28:57 <fizzie> I wrote that on my input line, but then decided it didn't make enough sense to press enter.
19:30:28 <b_jonas> stupid notebook and Windows, there's a power button, please don't wake up from sleep on a keypress
19:33:16 <b_jonas> I solved https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/7 rather slowly because I put at least two stupid bugs in my code and had to debug them, but at least I had a reasonable idea about what the twist would be and so wrote the code in a way that would support that
19:35:06 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:37:13 <fizzie> I was sort of sure that at least the numbers would be important eventually.
19:38:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the numerals, which were unused in the first part, gave it away
19:43:54 <b_jonas> or maybe it's animals like rat : written
19:44:46 <fizzie> Continuing my "if it's got graphs in it, convert it to dot" thing I was already doing last year, I've rendered the two examples as https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-ex1.png and https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-ex2.png with the colors denoting shiny gold ancestors/descendants.
19:45:45 <fizzie> Unfortunately GraphViz just can't really cope with the 594-node actual puzzle input in any meaningful fashion: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-small.png
19:46:14 <fizzie> Tried a few of the other layout engines as well, but it really wasn't any better.
19:53:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: does it become nicer if you put shorter labels into the nodes instead of the full color name? "mirrored chartreuse" is so long. admittedly there are short ones like "dim red"
19:56:51 <b_jonas> apparently they're using all combinations of 18*38 color names, the 18 prefixes go like "dim, dark, rdab, dull, ..., dotted, striped, vibrant, mirrored" with mostly 4 and 5 letters, the suffixes like "red, tan, aqua, blue, ..., fuchsia, magenta, lavender, turquoise, chartreuse" with mostly 4 and 5 and 6 long names
19:57:33 <fizzie> It's a little bit better, but not really that much. The non-resized image went from 32242x3003 pixels to 25557x3003 when I used consecutive integers from 0 as the names.
20:00:38 <fizzie> My input has 18 prefixes as well, but only 33 color names.
20:01:59 <fizzie> I'm also not 100% on what exactly the color "clear tomato" looks like.
20:06:18 <b_jonas> probably looks like diluated tomato juice
20:18:39 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:21:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: Quitte).
20:59:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Braincopter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79290&oldid=79278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) unsigned
21:02:50 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79291&oldid=67996 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Implementations */ cls
21:03:09 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79292&oldid=79291 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) unpipe
21:06:01 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79293&oldid=65351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Unimplemented & Uncomputable
21:08:04 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79294&oldid=79288 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+118) /* Example program: Truth Machine */ cats
21:10:10 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79295&oldid=79232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* General languages */ fix link
21:11:36 <esowiki> [[Vague]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79296&oldid=59900 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) chates
21:11:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jemhunter * New user account
21:12:12 <esowiki> [[Spice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79297&oldid=79162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ tac
21:13:04 <esowiki> [[LINR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79298&oldid=51977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ cat
21:13:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79299&oldid=79223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* S */ [[Sadako]]
21:17:32 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79300&oldid=79215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Language overview */ This likely is language
21:17:51 <esowiki> [[Sally]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79301&oldid=19305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) cat
21:18:44 <esowiki> [[Sally]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79302&oldid=79301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) The Languages.md file says 2000 ;;; cats
21:20:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79303&oldid=79274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28380) Undo revision 79274 by [[Special:Contributions/0xFF|0xFF]] ([[User talk:0xFF|talk]]) (not a chance)
21:50:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
22:00:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:01:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:02:47 -!- izabera has quit (*.net *.split).
22:02:47 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split).
22:04:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:04:26 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:30:06 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:30:30 -!- izabera has joined.
22:30:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:45:18 -!- nfd9001 has changed nick to nfd.
22:49:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:13:56 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Random JavaScript snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79304&oldid=78602 * Hakerh400 * (-470) Quizzes will be moved to a new article
23:23:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79305 * Hakerh400 * (+777) Move snippets to a new article
23:23:28 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79306&oldid=79093 * Hakerh400 * (+53) /* Misc */
23:26:39 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79307&oldid=79305 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
23:33:14 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:35:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79308&oldid=79307 * Hakerh400 * (+166)
00:11:32 -!- TheLie has joined.
00:22:33 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
00:23:20 -!- sprocklem has joined.
00:47:05 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:50:41 <esowiki> [[1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79309&oldid=73305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Implementations */ list,cat
01:20:24 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:28:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:32:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
01:45:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:46:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
02:10:05 -!- paul2520 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:22:18 -!- paul2520 has joined.
02:43:14 -!- Arcorann has joined.
02:44:10 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:44:37 -!- Arcorann has joined.
02:50:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:52:10 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79310&oldid=79294 * Tetrapyronia * (-6)
02:54:47 -!- earend1 has joined.
03:35:26 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:35:54 -!- xelxebar has joined.
03:44:09 -!- delta23 has joined.
03:55:42 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
04:05:47 -!- Melvar has joined.
04:13:07 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:23:32 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:37:01 -!- Melvar has joined.
04:56:13 <int-e> shachaf: so many islands... 509 now, still missing a few dozen I think
04:59:28 <int-e> and they're getting harder to reach too
04:59:52 <int-e> and there's still a couple of mechanical surprises
05:07:30 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined.
05:08:04 <LegionMammal978> This AoC was pretty fun (somehow, I managed to get #14 on the first leaderboard)
05:09:59 <LegionMammal978> Writing interpreters for BF-like languages (i.e., one character per instruction + simple memory model) was definitely good practice
05:10:32 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:47:22 <int-e> So what shall we call the new virtual machine... HGC for Handheld Game Controller?
05:48:03 <int-e> . o O ( It should have a 720x348 monochrome display. )
05:53:33 <shachaf> I would say that this AoC is quite well-ordered so far. It definitely has a basis.
05:55:42 -!- imode has joined.
06:06:54 <int-e> shachaf: I was looking for a particular island I was playing around on yesterday. I didn't find it :-/
06:07:29 <int-e> (though I got sidetracked a bit because I found other ideas while looking)
06:31:28 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
06:32:43 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:04:05 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
07:53:51 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
07:54:28 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: ...).
07:54:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services).
07:54:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
07:55:56 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
07:56:02 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
08:12:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:19:27 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
08:19:27 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
08:19:38 -!- LKoen has joined.
08:19:39 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
08:36:46 <HackEso> economics:Economics is just applied numerology.
08:37:30 <int-e> `learn Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology.
08:37:33 <HackEso> Learned 'economic': Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology.
08:44:54 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:46:03 -!- delta23 has joined.
08:51:29 -!- zzo38 has joined.
08:52:47 -!- rain1 has joined.
08:54:48 <zzo38> Is there a term in Magic: the Gathering that can refer to both players and objects, in general? They have some things in common, such as counters, possibility to be damaged (although only some objects can be damaged), possibility to be a target, and possibility for permanents to be attached to it.
09:02:46 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+1163) Created page with "'''Firstreplace''' is an accidental<sup>1</sup> [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:Abyxlrz|Abyxlrz]]. (1) It is accidental because i was trying to make a interp..."
09:04:12 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79312&oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+82)
09:04:28 <shachaf> Huh, they changed the phrasing.
09:04:57 <shachaf> E.g. Shock used to say "target creature or player", and now it says "to any target".
09:05:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:06:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79313&oldid=79299 * Abyxlrz * (+19)
09:07:26 <int-e> shachaf: '115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, or planeswalkers. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can’t be chosen.'
09:07:56 <int-e> So the change allows planeswalkers to be targeted as well.
09:08:08 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure planeswalkers could already be targeted.
09:08:26 <int-e> If you say "creature or player" then planeswalkers are excluded.
09:08:32 <shachaf> Maybe you targeted the player and redirected the damage or something?
09:08:38 <shachaf> There was definitely a way to damage planeswalkers.
09:09:01 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79314&oldid=78053 * Abyxlrz * (+17)
09:09:10 <shachaf> Yes: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/03/goodbye-planeswalker-redirection-rule-mtg-dominaria/
09:09:15 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79315&oldid=79314 * Abyxlrz * (+4)
09:09:32 <shachaf> "The Planeswalker redirection rule was implemented in Lorwyn with the introduction of the first Planeswalker cards. The rule states that you cannot directly target a Planeswalker with damage dealing spells—instead, you must target a player and then redirect the damage from that player to a Planeswalker they control."
09:10:02 <int-e> Ow, that sounds awkware.
09:10:13 <shachaf> It meant you could decide at resolution time instead of targeting time.
09:10:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:10:24 <int-e> "awkware" is an akward spelling of "awkward".
09:10:37 <shachaf> And also that the spell wouldn't fizzle if the planeswalker was gone at resolution time, I suppose.
09:10:41 <int-e> yeah apparently they got rid of that
09:10:49 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
09:10:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:10:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:11:04 <shachaf> So it is a functional change, maybe slightly for the worse, but surely better for the game overall.
09:11:12 <shachaf> I heard they even deprecated regenerate!
09:11:50 <shachaf> Maybe one day you'll be able to play Standard and not have to know a zillion obscure rules to play correctly.
09:13:47 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:16:52 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
09:23:13 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79316&oldid=79312 * Abyxlrz * (+39)
09:40:29 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79317&oldid=79316 * Abyxlrz * (+93)
09:42:28 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79318&oldid=79317 * Abyxlrz * (+42)
10:07:40 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79319&oldid=79318 * Abyxlrz * (+35)
10:21:52 -!- TheLie has joined.
10:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79320&oldid=74940 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+205) /* Input\Output format */ new section
10:38:30 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79321 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1342) Created page with "'''Dotter''' is a stack-based esoteric language created by me in 2020. ==Commands== * <code>..............[ascii]</code>: pushes ascii as a character to the end of the stack...."
10:39:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79322&oldid=79313 * Sertdfyguhi * (+13)
10:44:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:13:25 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:17:35 -!- delta23 has joined.
11:24:43 <fizzie> Does it mean something that there's a gap between 8 and 9 on the calendar page? I don't think that was there before.
11:25:21 <fizzie> It might just mean that the pretty picture just didn't fit well to 25 lines, I guess.
11:30:07 <fizzie> But it *could* mean there's going to be 3 somehow distinct stages (3*8 = 24), plus a special 25th day thing as usual.
11:33:29 <fizzie> Also, first instance of panic for my solutions this year. Last year had a bunch: http://ix.io/2H8M (theoretically contains a really minor spoiler about what the task of part 2 will be, in case you haven't done it yet)
11:54:36 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
11:58:12 -!- rain1 has joined.
11:59:15 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:19:17 <int-e> fizzie: maybe we're speeding up as things go downhill
12:25:49 <fizzie> Also did another GraphViz graph for today's example, can't help myself: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png (again, one aspect of that could be considered a bit spoilery for what part 2's question is)
12:54:10 <int-e> Arcorann_: we don't know where that island is yet
12:55:31 <int-e> I think I see what you mean. My bad
12:55:43 <int-e> I saw a hill, never considered that the blue would be water.
12:56:22 <int-e> I agree. South it is, then.
12:57:55 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:58:13 <int-e> Unfortunately that deprives me of the reason why we would speed up.
13:07:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
13:21:43 <Arcorann_> I guess it'd be because we got on a bigger plane
13:25:26 -!- user24 has joined.
13:30:21 <int-e> Oh I skipped the fluff today. "interrupted by the kid sitting next to you" ... I hate it when they do that.
13:31:09 <fizzie> Arcorann_: I wondered about that on day 6. "As your flight approaches the regional airport where you'll switch to a much larger plane --". The previous plane already had 1024 seats, and this one's "much larger"...
13:31:12 <int-e> (I don't recall it ever happened to me, actually.)
13:31:55 -!- LKoen has joined.
13:32:33 <int-e> But do we know what species we are? I imagine a lot of elves would fit on an A380.
13:33:16 <fizzie> The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was.
13:33:44 <Arcorann_> Heights were basically normal human heights
13:34:02 <int-e> fizzie: Well, we know the bounds for validity which were human-sized.
13:34:13 <int-e> So there goes that theory.
13:34:23 <int-e> Weights too, unfortunately.
13:34:34 <int-e> So much for that theory.
13:35:10 <fizzie> All the titles have so far been Alliterative Assortments too.
13:35:18 <int-e> Maybe the new plane is just a large, flat surface.
13:35:19 <fizzie> (Couldn't come up with a synonym for "pair" starting with a.)
13:36:10 <int-e> I missed the titles too.
13:36:43 <int-e> alternate... alternation... not quite, but it feels like there should be something
13:37:19 <int-e> well, alliterative alternation does not sound completely wrong to me
13:39:14 <int-e> (only mostly wrong)
13:41:50 <int-e> . o O ( rote repetition )
14:01:14 -!- Aiso has joined.
14:12:19 -!- delta23 has joined.
14:15:58 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:20:41 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> […] The previous plane already had 1024 seats" => no, day 5 twist spec is quite clear that it has somewhat less than 1024 seats, but it indeed turns out to have about 900, so that's only a technical difference
14:21:25 <b_jonas> "The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was." => doesn't matter we have seen much less than the 900 passports, so there could be 300 humans and 600 kobolds on the plane
14:21:56 <b_jonas> the kobolds may be gated to a different security control area, with kobold-sized x-ray machine and kobold-height conveyor belt for the luggage
14:23:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the phrase you want is "Added Alliterative Appeal", see TVTROPES WARNING https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AddedAlliterativeAppeal
14:23:56 <b_jonas> or is it? I guess it's not, that's for a lot of alliteration in the text, it maybe be just https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlliterativeTitle
14:24:05 <int-e> b_jonas: That's cute, but we wanted a pair.
14:24:27 <int-e> Using something that *means* "pair"
14:24:40 <int-e> And that seems to be out of reach, in English at least.
14:25:00 <int-e> "Alliterative Appeal" is good though.
14:26:22 <b_jonas> int-e: Consonance Csomething?
14:27:53 <int-e> Though I'd really want an adjective there, which would be "Consonant Couple" which makes it look like a noun. Oops.
14:30:17 <b_jonas> Coding contest consonance, or AOC alliteration
14:31:38 <int-e> Hmm, I got no reaction to https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-08.html#lM *sniff*
14:32:23 <b_jonas> also some of you wanted an intcode
14:32:31 <b_jonas> you may have the first part of one
14:33:19 <int-e> Next up: memory and IO.
14:33:57 <int-e> maybe just a stack
14:34:16 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:34:35 <int-e> A PDA should be powerful enough for AoC. And it even looks similar to a HGC.
14:36:18 <b_jonas> or just Added Alliteration
14:36:56 <b_jonas> int-e: a PDA, sure. a stack plus just one numeric register? no.
14:37:11 <b_jonas> not unless you get extra registers or access the stack deep enough.
14:38:33 <b_jonas> ok wait, I should solve the task first
14:39:46 <int-e> A stack gives you PDA power... a bit more if the register is an unbounded integer. In fact if you have division with remainder you can maybe even simulate a stack in the register, completing a tape and making it TC? Depends on the details, I guess.
14:40:40 <int-e> I also imagine there's a conditional jump around... otherwise things will be tricky.
14:41:09 <int-e> (so enough to implement any desired amount of finite control)
14:44:51 <int-e> I guess this TC idea hinges on being able to inspect the top stack element without modifying the accumulator, which can either be achieved by adding an additional register, or by adding an swapping operation for the two two stack elements
14:45:32 <int-e> or by specialized instructions that work on the top stack element instead of the accumulator... but that really feels like an extra register.
15:15:37 <int-e> Oh I may be wrong about needing a swap, it's really a question of the order of operands of `mod`. Consider `PUSH; PUSH; IMM 2; RMOD` which extracts the bottom bit of the accumulator if `RMOD` divides the top of the stack by the accumulator. So we can branch based on that value and then `POP` the accumulator.
15:16:17 -!- MDude has joined.
15:17:00 <int-e> `RDIV` can pop a bit off the accumulator-based stack. And `PUSH; ADD; ADD` can shift a bit from the stack into the accumulator.
15:17:00 <HackEso> RDIV`? No such file or directory
15:17:28 <int-e> (Another thing to be wary of.)
15:21:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:26:23 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:27:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:54:43 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
15:55:16 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:56:10 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:03:47 -!- TheLie has joined.
16:22:57 <b_jonas> ok, I admit I totally mispredicted what the thist would be for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/8 , and my program suffered from that; it also suffered from a stupid unrelated bug though
16:25:14 <b_jonas> ok, so what do we call the interpreted language featured in this task? the task doesn't give a name like "Intcode" this time. do we just call it "Handheld halting" from the title of the task until they give a better name?
16:25:58 <b_jonas> or just "Handheld" because "halting" is the task, not the language?
16:38:31 <myname> does it need a language?
16:40:21 -!- deltaepsilon23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:40:52 <b_jonas> myname: it will, after a few more tasks, yes
16:41:05 <b_jonas> it perhaps doesn't need a short name yet, we could wait until the next task
16:41:34 <myname> currently it looks like a crappy assembler
16:42:27 <b_jonas> of course it's possible that they'll throw this language away and a next task will instead be running programs in an unrelated language
17:18:44 -!- earend1 has joined.
17:22:38 <fizzie> I have a feeling they'd've provided a hint if this was to become a running theme this year.
17:26:23 <fizzie> (They did in day 2 part 2, 2019.)
17:28:13 -!- Aiso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:30:54 <fizzie> I'm also wondering whether everyone just did the obvious O(n^2) part 2, that's basically just n times part 1, because it's definitely not asymptotically optimal, but on the other hand it's perfectly reasonable.
17:48:09 -!- arseniiv has joined.
17:51:18 <shachaf> Oh, this points out some cards actually get worse in a way that can matter, due to not having their text changed: https://www.reddit.com/r/PonzaMTG/comments/83502o/psa_new_planeswalker_redirection_rule_nerfs_some/
17:51:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I did the obvious quadratic, because there are only 617 instructions in the ROM
17:51:38 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:52:00 <fizzie> So did I, though I'm tempted to add an alternative solution as well.
17:53:19 <fizzie> For example, treating black edges as weight 0 and red edges as weight 1, finding the shortest path in the https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png representation should give the solution in O(n log n) time.
17:53:54 <b_jonas> I did skip rerunning the program for the 338 acc instrs though
17:54:18 -!- sftp has joined.
17:57:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I know there's a fast solution, yes.
18:07:25 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:07:47 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:12:46 <shachaf> There are some regular languages that are very easy to express as NFAs but incredibly complicated as regular expressions. What's that about?
18:17:54 -!- sftp has joined.
18:21:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, we talked about them recently. search for http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html in the logs to find it. fizzie: I can't load the https://esolangs.org/logs , is it just me? 504 Gateway Time-out
18:24:20 <fizzie> There's something in the websocket support of the (C++) embedded web server serving the logs; either I'm using it wrong, or it has a bug.
18:24:45 <fizzie> Every now and then it goes into this mode where it just stops responding, and some gdb'ing suggested it's related to the stalker mode websocket stuff.
18:25:50 <fizzie> I can just restart it, that usually fixes it.
18:26:50 <fizzie> The problem is, it never breaks when I wouldn't have anything better to do than debug it. (Also, I'd need to build a binary with symbols, because "something with websockets" was the closest I could get to by attaching gdb to the binary without them.)
18:41:12 <arseniiv> played Heaven’s Vault a bit, looks interesting
18:41:44 <arseniiv> and also I played Snake Pass and my fingers are now broken (at least in my imagination)
18:57:41 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
19:02:09 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hi, what’s new with that hyper-Malbolge of yours?
19:08:05 -!- Aiso has joined.
19:09:57 -!- sftp has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:10:13 -!- sftp has joined.
19:13:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:14:10 -!- delta23 has joined.
19:35:17 <rain1> Snake Pass is awesome
19:38:29 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:44:29 <arseniiv> rain1: did you use keyboard or a controller?
19:44:34 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:46:16 <arseniiv> I totally liked how even in the first level there are coins to grab and I completely missed where they even are. I’ll probably try to find them the next time. On the second level, I grabbed one or two coins, I think, but missed one blobby thing though
19:46:35 <arseniiv> and the sighs Noodle makes are the best
19:48:32 <shachaf> Can't be missing blobby things.
19:49:13 <arseniiv> also I wonder if there is any help from a bought gecko in Heaven’s Vault. Would it come with Aliya and find something in some wall cracks or is it just a decoration now
19:49:57 <arseniiv> we traded two historical artifacts for it, that would be unfair
19:51:44 <arseniiv> rain1: ah, I’m on a keyboard (and mouse, it uses the left button to go and the right to grip), it’s probably harder though I hope I’ll train my hands after the several next playings
19:54:38 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:55:07 <rain1> i think you need an analog controller
19:55:21 <rain1> or at least it makes it better
20:26:55 -!- nfd has joined.
20:41:08 -!- Aiso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:48:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
20:56:07 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:05:49 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah it should be more appropriate for that kind of a game
21:06:48 <int-e> looks cute but too hard
21:48:14 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:50:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:53:42 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
21:55:23 -!- delta23 has joined.
21:59:33 -!- delta23 has quit (Client Quit).
22:19:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:24:05 <zzo38> I don't like the planeswalker redirection rule so I think is good they changed that. However, I don't like the wording "any target" because it uses different phrasing than other targets and makes it not sufficiently general. In my own custom cards I am using "target damageable"; such things as "enchant damageable" are also allowed, and for the purpose of text changing effects (such as overload), "any target" used in that way is treated
22:25:59 <zzo38> It is not quite an answer to my original question, though.
22:26:33 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:26:53 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:12 -!- xelxebar has joined.
22:32:02 -!- Aiso has joined.
22:43:34 -!- Aiso has left.
22:47:12 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:14:46 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:19:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:31:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:31:48 <zzo38> I am having some trouble with internet recently
00:07:57 -!- FreeFull has quit.
00:28:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:37:16 -!- Aiso has joined.
00:42:50 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79323&oldid=79321 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Hello world! program */ le chat
00:44:04 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79324&oldid=77819 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* 99 bottles of beer */ cats
00:51:53 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:51:59 -!- HackEso has joined.
00:53:38 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79325&oldid=79319 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Interpreter */ Les chats apparatent!
01:03:40 <esowiki> [[LITHP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79326&oldid=35424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) stub,,cats,,
01:08:48 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:09:33 -!- Aiso has left.
01:25:34 -!- Arcorann has joined.
01:45:29 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:46:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:07:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79327&oldid=79320 * Rdebath * (+339) /* Input\Output format */
02:53:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Unl256 * New user account
03:15:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:19:45 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip).
04:42:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:55:14 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:58:41 -!- shinh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:12:28 <esowiki> [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79328&oldid=79256 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
05:27:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:29:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:51:01 <int-e> hmm, addition [of] chains
05:52:29 <int-e> more islands trickling in, 512. and another friend that I had not even seen yet
06:07:58 <int-e> It's getting hard though... some solutions span more than one island, and I never know whether there's a potential raft from another distant island involved in making progress.
06:09:12 <int-e> And obviously there's a selection process going on... survival of the fittest puzzles.
06:11:02 <shachaf> I was not expecting this game to have that many islands.
06:11:14 <shachaf> I was going to say "that many puzzles" but many islands aren't really puzzles.
06:11:24 <shachaf> Or at least if they are it's in a very sophisticated way I haven't figured out.
06:11:48 <int-e> right, there are quite a few islands that basically serve as bridges
06:12:13 <int-e> or where the puzzle is in reaching the island, not in getting off it
06:13:00 <int-e> and of course, in some way, the whole world is just one big puzzle.
06:13:35 <int-e> (though that view makes it hard to explain the precise logic of the 'reset' action.
06:22:53 <shachaf> That action is already hard to explain exactly.
06:23:05 <shachaf> Or, I mean, the behavior is trickier than it seems at first.
06:23:57 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:26:08 <shachaf> Presumably this is an important mechanic in later puzzles.
06:26:09 <int-e> even locally I'm not 100% sure how it determines the position you end up after a reset.
06:27:22 <int-e> ugh, that gave me an idea...
06:27:47 <int-e> ...but I won't say what it is.
06:28:03 <int-e> just that it is something that I have not tried out
06:40:09 -!- Lymee has joined.
06:40:14 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:40:17 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Lymia.
07:24:42 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:26:21 -!- int-e has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:27:07 -!- int-e has joined.
07:27:32 -!- lambdabot has joined.
07:55:01 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
08:09:48 -!- Arcorann has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:22:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:30:36 -!- Arcorann has joined.
09:56:25 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
10:02:21 -!- delta23 has joined.
10:04:08 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
10:07:18 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:07:43 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:33:16 <arseniiv> some ideas sleep quite furiously
10:46:51 <fizzie> Okay, I don't think the gap in the calendar meant anything, it was just a visual thing. Judging from the placement of the 10.
11:08:04 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:31:47 -!- TheLie has joined.
12:27:54 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
12:28:03 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
12:28:09 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
12:43:30 <int-e> fizzie: so... this won't be a straightforward journey then?
12:46:27 <fizzie> I sort of have a feeling fiddling with an "open data port" in a plane you're currently flying in may not be the best of ideas. Especially if it involves paperclips and breaking some encryption. (Can you even call that "open"?)
12:48:51 <fizzie> All the other years' calendars have been going in reverse order, with day 1 at the bottom and day 25 at the top. Guess 2020 is a little different.
12:52:52 <fizzie> Looking at https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html today was the fastest day 9 by far.
12:56:35 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
13:02:59 <int-e> Oh I skipped all flavor text today.
13:03:47 <int-e> And for once, I missed out... paper clips!
13:19:23 <esowiki> [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79329&oldid=74131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-250) /* Install */ wikitext
13:20:20 -!- rain1 has joined.
13:24:32 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:26:50 <esowiki> [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79330&oldid=79329 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+305) /* External Resources */ Add links, give meaningful titles
13:29:39 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.).
13:31:06 -!- shikhin has joined.
13:35:00 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79331&oldid=76222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Syntax and Semantics */ m
13:43:33 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
13:45:13 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
13:45:37 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
13:53:21 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/hydra would be better if OOTS hadn't used the exact same joke better
13:54:49 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:55:59 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
14:42:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:48:10 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:55:11 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:29:58 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
15:30:09 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
15:30:13 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
15:49:56 -!- TheLie has joined.
16:23:37 -!- MDude has joined.
16:49:00 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:00:50 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:51:20 -!- user24 has joined.
17:56:00 -!- TheLie has joined.
18:23:02 -!- user24 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:29:01 -!- user24 has joined.
18:43:43 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
18:45:09 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:57:14 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
19:05:34 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:09:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:31:44 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:05:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:25:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:29:29 <esowiki> [[Stalactite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79332&oldid=19965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) cats
21:34:13 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:35:31 <esowiki> [[Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79333&oldid=58678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Examples */ links
21:38:34 <esowiki> [[MISC Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79334&oldid=30476 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) back
21:43:20 <esowiki> [[MISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79335&oldid=64791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) practically oisc
21:54:22 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:56:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: actually the task in https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/1 is similar to the task in https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/9 , so at this point I weakly conjecture that there's something of a period of 8 days in the tasks, with empty lines between every 8 lines to enforce that.
21:57:23 <b_jonas> these two tasks are also a bit similar to that optimization task about approximating a large number with a product of small prime factors, though of course these are much easier
21:57:41 <b_jonas> I've probably just imagining things though
21:58:08 <fizzie> b_jonas: A period of 8 is what I speculated about too, but the placement of 10 kind of ruins that.
21:58:17 <myname> but there is a break between 9 and 10, too
21:58:38 <b_jonas> oh yeah... there's a taller gap between 9 and 10. that breaks that idea
21:59:53 <b_jonas> oh, I think the graphics on https://adventofcode.com/2020 is supposed to show your travel itinery on a globe. there are gaps because we're now on a long distance airplane. and you can see tracks drawn for both the short airplane ride and the long one.
22:06:39 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:29:11 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:42:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:44:06 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
22:47:33 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
22:58:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: I submitted a wrong answer to https://adventofcode.com/2015/day/8 twist and it says "your answer is too high". does this mean I can binary search the answer even for very large problems?
22:59:37 <b_jonas> someone tells me that probably no, because you get increasingly larger timeouts
23:00:05 <fizzie> Hmm, I don't know. I don't remember it saying that.
23:00:57 <fizzie> Could be it gives those hints if it's off by an order of magnitude, too.
23:03:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: this is for 2015, maybe 2020 doesn't do that
23:32:00 -!- posseidoun has joined.
23:35:52 -!- posseidoun has left.
23:44:58 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:35:29 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:43:22 <Sgeo> I don't understand C
00:43:36 <Sgeo> Hitting my head on LINK : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol _DllMainCRTStartup while trying to use MS Detours
00:43:51 <Sgeo> Wait no I fixed that
00:44:03 <Sgeo> But I can't get /I to work properly so I have this as an #include
00:44:10 <Sgeo> #include "vcpkg\\installed\\x64-windows\\include\\detours\\detours.h"
00:47:27 <Sgeo> ....how am I magically linking to opengl32.lib?
00:47:34 <Sgeo> I didn't install it into this copy of vcpkg
01:45:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
01:47:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
01:53:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:26:39 -!- tromp has joined.
02:35:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:36:23 -!- arseniiv has joined.
02:38:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
02:42:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:05:18 -!- tromp has joined.
03:19:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:53:17 -!- tromp has joined.
04:54:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:09:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:25:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:28:37 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:29:38 -!- user3456 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:31:18 -!- user3456 has joined.
05:35:39 -!- heroux has joined.
05:39:18 <zzo38> Once I implemented one feature in Free Hero Mesh to list the menu for examining objects (although it is not yet complete), reveals another thing wrong in the conversion (or the loader, but probably the conversion) that sometimes it duplicates objects when it isn't supposed to do, although some of the duplicated objects actually are in the original, some of them aren't.
05:42:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services).
05:42:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:45:57 <zzo38> Recently (for the past few days), I have had some trouble with internet. Sometimes it will stop after a while (the time it takes for that to happen varies), but restarting the router helps (although often it will work after a while even if the router is not restarted, but it tends to take longer in that case). Do you know what is the problems?
05:53:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:11:06 -!- mich181189 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:11:22 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
06:11:42 -!- glowcoil has joined.
06:11:53 -!- mich181189 has joined.
06:23:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:54:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:54:56 -!- Arcorann__ has joined.
06:58:19 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:02:21 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
07:10:32 -!- MDude has joined.
07:25:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:35:36 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
07:37:36 -!- head_case has joined.
07:38:33 -!- head_case has left.
08:39:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:19:13 -!- user24 has joined.
09:25:24 -!- TheLie has joined.
09:42:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
09:42:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:50:56 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:18:03 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:18:35 -!- tromp has joined.
10:36:14 <earend1> what problems? bandwith? no connection?
10:36:53 <earend1> i have problems as well. but its HSDPA, or so i believed
10:38:07 -!- Arcorann has joined.
10:40:26 -!- Arcorann__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:11:23 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:33:55 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:19:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:22:55 -!- Arcorann has joined.
12:53:00 -!- rain1 has joined.
13:27:49 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79336&oldid=56009 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+235) interpreter & cats
13:37:57 <esowiki> [[Apple3.14/implementation.ijs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79337&oldid=49025 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) m
13:38:23 <esowiki> [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79338&oldid=66155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Implementation */ stac
13:51:26 <esowiki> [[ArnoldC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79339&oldid=76885 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) refimpl
14:38:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tubs * New user account
14:43:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79340&oldid=79277 * Tubs * (+138)
14:44:16 <esowiki> [[Jot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79341&oldid=72850 * Tubs * (+104) /* External resources */ Barker's website is temporarily unavailable
14:45:07 <esowiki> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79342&oldid=63800 * Tubs * (+104) /* External resources */ Barker's website is temporarily unavailable
14:46:39 <esowiki> [[Zot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79343&oldid=63798 * Tubs * (+112) /* External resources */ Barker's webpage is temporarily unavailable
14:49:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:53:53 -!- nakilon has joined.
14:54:16 <nakilon> hello guys, it's good to see there is a chat on this topic
14:56:04 <nakilon> can anyone tell me if there is a language as similar as possible to befunge-93/98 but with the feature of reading and/or popping the value deep inside a stack, not just top 1-2 values?
14:57:11 <HackEso> nakilon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:57:18 <esowiki> [[User:Tubs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79344 * Tubs * (+218) in case you didn't think i was a human
14:57:43 <esowiki> [[User:Tubs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79345&oldid=79344 * Tubs * (+4)
14:58:45 <fizzie> nakilon: Funge-98 famously does have that feature, as a side effect of the y instruction.
14:59:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
14:59:15 <fizzie> Oh, and via the stack stack manipulations too, of course.
15:01:53 <fizzie> Specifically, via using N{ first to move the top N values to a new stack, then the u instruction to read/write from the stack stack under the top of the stack stack, and then N} to restore the original top N elements.
15:04:02 <nakilon> 98 is complex ( I can't finish my interpreneter implementation
15:07:22 <nakilon> https://github.com/Nakilon/befunge98
15:10:15 <nakilon> I feel like I want a language with most of the 93 (but without self-modification), just few operators from 98 and easier stack addressing; also with removing the 'g' and 'p' it would limit program space to pi/2 sector and there should be long arbitrary-precision arithmetic or using Rational type by default
15:49:46 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:06:36 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:14:43 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:54:25 -!- user24 has joined.
18:34:04 -!- MDude has joined.
19:08:11 <b_jonas> indeed doesn't seem periodic by 8 days
19:08:52 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:19:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:22:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:35:20 -!- LKoen has joined.
19:36:32 -!- tromp has joined.
19:38:46 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:39:11 -!- tromp has joined.
21:02:00 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79346&oldid=75938 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax & Grammar */ Shouldn't this be 'B'?
21:03:44 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79347&oldid=79346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ github
21:04:24 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79348&oldid=79347 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ cat
21:05:32 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79349&oldid=75937 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Chain Rules */ m
21:07:45 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79350&oldid=79349 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) This is what GitHub says it stands for
21:10:35 <esowiki> [[StaPLe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79351&oldid=41493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+327) /* Example Programs */ Add the actual codes
21:15:16 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:16:42 <esowiki> [[Pizza]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79352&oldid=56231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) m
21:17:52 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79353&oldid=73973 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+205) please delete
21:49:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
21:52:53 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:47:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:51:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:06:42 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:08:27 -!- Melvar has joined.
23:11:56 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:16:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:04:27 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:12:09 -!- tromp has joined.
00:15:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:22:56 -!- xelxebar has joined.
00:40:16 <esowiki> [[Bub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79354&oldid=30822 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Here be stubs
00:47:11 <esowiki> [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79355&oldid=78854 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) t
01:47:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:47:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
02:05:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79356&oldid=79269 * Tetrapyronia * (+207) Added Zeno
02:05:47 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79357&oldid=79270 * Tetrapyronia * (+11)
03:16:28 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (+1248) new language :)
03:17:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79359&oldid=79356 * Tetrapyronia * (+98) Added Cerberus
03:17:45 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79360&oldid=79357 * Tetrapyronia * (+30)
03:35:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:39:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:41:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:44:29 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:48:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
04:58:14 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:06:10 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
05:06:26 -!- nfd has joined.
05:26:15 <aaaaaa> Hi all. What ongoing zoom.us CS-confs are interesting? With a bias to esoteric PLs.
05:30:49 -!- imode has joined.
05:34:15 <shachaf> https://sat-smt.in/ started about half an hour ago.
05:36:54 <shachaf> I guess it's not really a conference.
05:37:12 <shachaf> It's very arguably related to #esoterica.
05:37:13 <aaaaaa> Anyway, what zoom confs do you attend? Wondering
05:37:49 <aaaaaa> shachaf: waiting for Armin Biere :)
05:38:06 <aaaaaa> shachaf: I do, this is why I'm asking, maybe there is something interesting as well as this
05:38:36 <shachaf> I'm watching the introductory talk but so far it's all basics.
05:38:37 <aaaaaa> virtual uni, so to say
05:39:33 <shachaf> I don't know that I want to stay awake until 4 watching these talks.
05:40:00 <shachaf> It all seems a bit silly. If you're just watching a video being streamed, it's a worse experience than watching a recording, which you could watch at 2x speed or pause.
05:40:26 <aaaaaa> Maybe it's all will be uploaded here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm6e0ZSQt-C6iEhBV6TaEdA
05:40:56 <shachaf> Yes, that's what I expect.
05:41:01 <aaaaaa> Yeah, but you can ask a question in zoom
05:41:03 <shachaf> I guess the benefit is asking questions in real time or something.
05:41:25 <shachaf> So maybe that'd be a better format. I guess some conferences do it that way.
05:42:13 <shachaf> Maybe I should read kissat code to have good questions to ask.
05:43:12 <aaaaaa> Modern SAT solvers are not an easy piece of cake
05:43:29 <shachaf> I read some kissat code before.
05:43:43 <shachaf> I also wrote my own CDCL solver.
05:43:55 <aaaaaa> shachaf: if so, you can probably dive into kissat...
05:44:05 <shachaf> But maybe not in the next hour.
05:45:24 <shachaf> I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?
05:45:44 <aaaaaa> shachaf: dunno. I like this channel because like both CS and some eso-PLs
05:45:50 <imode> satisfied with satisfiability.
05:45:53 <aaaaaa> it's less formal than other CS channels
05:46:39 <shachaf> What are the neato CS channels?
05:46:57 <aaaaaa> shachaf: #cs, #algorithms, whatever on reddit
05:47:15 <aaaaaa> like full of too-seriuous professors
07:05:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
07:05:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
07:17:05 -!- user24 has joined.
07:39:21 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79361&oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (-4)
07:59:15 <aaaaaa> shachaf: Armin Biere starts his presentation on zoom
08:00:08 <shachaf> Hmm, what's your native language, if you have one?
08:07:26 <int-e> . o O ( aren't they all artificial )
08:08:45 <shachaf> It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.
08:09:10 <aaaaaa> shachaf: Russian is. Yes, my English is still horrible...
08:10:28 <shachaf> Man, kissat is just really good, huh.
08:11:07 <aaaaaa> shachaf: sure, Armin is one of the leading experts
08:12:13 <shachaf> It's too bad it doesn't support incremental solving.
08:12:24 <shachaf> Maybe it will in the future, I think it might've said.
08:13:02 <aaaaaa> MUS is also not supported, AFAIR.
08:13:28 <aaaaaa> The problem is that scientists' goal is to write solvers for competitions, not for real-world projects :(
08:13:45 <aaaaaa> So all they lack something
08:14:58 <int-e> but they source the competition problems from "industrial" sources, which supposedly have real-life relevance?
08:15:10 <int-e> hmm, sourcing from sources, brilliant
08:15:22 <aaaaaa> int-e: you're right indeed
08:15:40 <shachaf> Are you attending the session?
08:17:32 <shachaf> I have no sense whether SAT/SMT solvers have actual relevance in industry.
08:18:08 -!- rain1 has joined.
08:18:59 <aaaaaa> shachaf: they do. If you dig into SAT/SMT benchmarks, there are indeed loads of files from real projects...
08:21:21 <shachaf> aaaaaa: Hmm, is MUS important?
08:22:18 <aaaaaa> shachaf: but it has some use
08:22:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:24:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:39:24 <shachaf> Why does this take it to NEXPTIME?
08:42:15 <shachaf> I think it stands for "Minimally Unsatisfiable Subformulas".
08:42:34 <int-e> Oh, a refinement of unsatisfiable cores.
08:44:00 <int-e> They're directly connected to minimal counterexamples, e.g. for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadwiger%E2%80%93Nelson_problem
08:46:05 <int-e> one of the citations there is: 'Heule, Marijn J.H. (2018), Computing Small Unit-Distance Graphs with Chromatic Number 5'... who is another big name in SAT solving.
08:47:00 <int-e> And that effort was all about taking a small-ish counterexample and minimizing it through SAT solving and extraction of unsatisfiable cores, iteratively.
08:47:34 <int-e> (That's without reading the paper, just from what I saw in the corresponding Polymath forum threads.)
08:49:01 <int-e> But also in practice you may benefit a lot from narrowing down contradictions (which may be programming errors) to a smaller set of constraints.
08:50:13 -!- sprocklem has joined.
09:06:31 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
09:40:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:56:43 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:35:37 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:07:46 <esowiki> [[Bet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79362&oldid=76786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) m
13:10:07 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79363&oldid=58231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* See Also */ cats
13:18:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think the difference here is video stream vs in person. the same is basically true for all the first-year basic theoretical classes that CS students got. as there were too many students, the professors didn't want to stop for any particular student's questions, so the classes were effectively non-interactive. we mathematicians fared much better even in first year with the small group:
13:18:06 <b_jonas> back then there were 50 of us as first year together, about 25 active as third year,
13:19:11 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
13:19:14 <b_jonas> and about 25 for the later specialized MsC classes which were attended by half of the students in weighted average (that is, there are more than twice as many classes as students take, but you generally take the more popular ones) but also taught in a period of two years instead of one year like the basic classes.
13:21:18 <b_jonas> the lower record was a logic class about model theory where only two of us plus a professor were in the classroom every week. a few years later the mathematicians grew to about twice that size, which is qualitatively worse because then in the first year median professors started to have a difficulty remembering each student individually. but even then it's much better than the CS students with their 600
13:21:24 <b_jonas> first years and the electric engineers with their 300 first years.
13:23:19 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79364&oldid=75904 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Instruction list */ m
13:23:36 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79365&oldid=79364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Official implementation */ Deadlink
13:23:49 <b_jonas> I do admit that remote communication still makes everything worse, I'm glad I didn't have to go to university during something like this,
13:24:06 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79366&oldid=79361 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) catsh
13:25:07 <b_jonas> and the way I have to work from home now sucks exactly because the communications at this job sucks, there was a lot of information that I could only get in person as corridor rumors.
13:26:22 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?" => yes, somehow. at least if three or four regulars count as "full of"
13:26:56 -!- delta23 has joined.
13:27:31 <b_jonas> “<shachaf> It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.” interesting, I don't remember you ever complained about how I use English tenses, despite that I often use them at random
13:27:48 <b_jonas> I still don't really understand how they're supposed to work
13:28:04 <int-e> fungot: tell us something random
13:28:05 <fungot> int-e: the great merit of doing this is to be given to structural measures for fleets that needed to be registered on a register on a friday morning, with mr linkohr' s report is very supportive indeed and this is the normalisation process! if we want to use my three minutes' speaking time in this extremely important work of promoting equality of rights and the destruction took place just yesterday in luxembourg constitute a st
13:35:11 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit).
13:46:14 <b_jonas> fungot: What is a fire and why does it – how do you say – burn?
13:46:15 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, the safi report was on the eu side because we believe that the committee responsible was able to have olaf's report so that there can only be obtained once the objectives of the common position also takes into consideration the fact that, even from these references, that the intergovernmental conference is quite intolerable, particularly for women.
13:48:04 <b_jonas> fungot: Open up your eyes, see the world from where I stand: me among the mighty, you caged at my command.
13:48:04 <fungot> b_jonas: given that we have not been matched by action. the european council launched two action plans. i should like to illustrate this alleged change that leon brittan went to present a communication on development policy, to quote the text itself, putting it into franchising and other things.
13:52:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:53:15 -!- LKoen has joined.
14:19:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:28:40 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:34:27 <HackEso> Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
14:42:49 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:49:18 -!- LKoen has joined.
15:01:40 <nakilon> > In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack.
15:01:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
15:01:51 <nakilon> where can I read what the "SGML" is?
15:04:10 <int-e> Have you tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGML
15:07:27 <nakilon> I don't see anything about collapsing space character there (
15:12:59 <b_jonas> nakilon: wait, why would befunge do that?
15:13:50 <b_jonas> I mean in string mode, which is for embedding literals efficienctly
15:14:17 <b_jonas> for normal code it's ok to do that
15:40:09 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:47:27 <nakilon> so I've put my ideas together here: https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel -- not decided yet is if there should be still one stack or maybe two; gonna figure that out in practice
15:51:06 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:00:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:10:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's to make wrapping in stringmode well-defined.
16:11:04 <fizzie> In Befunge-93, you just got as many spaces as there were, because the playfield was a 80x25 bounded rectangle.
16:12:19 <fizzie> At least that's what I've always assumed was the primary reason.
16:13:17 <b_jonas> that might make some sense
16:18:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:40:39 <b_jonas> there's actually a 2d language (with only 2d code, no 2d data or self-modifying code, sort of like Piet) that I sort of might want to make, but I couldn't figure out how it should work yet
16:50:20 <b_jonas> fungot, when have most of the Queen's Guards in London been replaced by robots?
16:50:20 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, i voted for this report, but also of our work to provide an incentive for member states to eliminate the current legal position and removes the option of being sentenced in countries that have also been discovered in addition to guaranteeing a high standard. moreover, we should like to remind you that the european union
16:58:16 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:01:23 -!- MDude has joined.
17:13:26 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:17:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:18:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:27:51 -!- myname has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
17:29:34 -!- myname has joined.
17:33:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:44:22 <b_jonas> this looks like it could be solved by a modification of my https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 game of life ran by unpack function, but that would be more difficult than a straightforward solution, so I won't try.
17:45:43 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:55:07 <fizzie> That reminded me, updated https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html -- looks like today was in line with previous years, unlike the previous two days. Maybe the audience is less familiar with cellular automatatatons than they are with other things.
18:00:21 <b_jonas> also, at least from these days, it looks like they aren't trying to give interesting algorithmic problems, instead they give you coding programs you don't have to think about how to solve because you can just implement them as described. the APL and other array programmer guys probably like it.
18:05:12 <nakilon> what about float numbers in Befunge?
18:10:24 <fizzie> There's a fingerprint for that.
18:10:38 <fizzie> Or two, actually: FPSP and FPDP.
18:11:15 <fizzie> http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPSP & http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPDP -- they're identical except for single vs. double precision.
18:13:00 <nakilon> looks like I had no clue about fingerprints
18:13:13 -!- adu has joined.
18:13:22 <fizzie> fungot: Which fingerprints do you use?
18:13:22 <fungot> fizzie: mr celli, with regard to its future neighbours. this is what everyone wants.
18:14:03 <fizzie> The answer is STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, REXP, TOYS and SUBR, though some only very marginally.
18:14:09 <fizzie> (fungot is written in Funge-98.)
18:14:10 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, poor compliance with environmental legislation. the commission and others, on the issue of taxation referred to by lord bethell and the repression of the mountain people of vietnam. these extremely secret documents give us a way out. at the last minute and trying to guide us through the media, lays the foundations for a stable euro. i believe that the definition of a safe roll-over into the new objective 2
18:38:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:39:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:42:57 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
18:43:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:44:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, fungot is written in befunge.
18:44:51 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, all of which are controlled by multinationals and that politics is a job for the large countries. this takes the form of development. i sincerely hope that this clarifies the issue.
18:46:06 <b_jonas> fungot: face it, your majesty. odds are, your curious offspring will befriend an surface dweller or mortal or outsider from the nation you consider your enemy, no matter how much you forbid them. you'd better prepare for it, rather than delude yourself that your authority can avoid it.
18:46:06 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president-in-office, i do personally feel that the distribution of seats in the european commission supports parliament' s secretary-general and the deputy secretary-general of the council says, with dry eyes, on fisheries, but concerns above all the council, commissioner, i represent the italian pensioners' party membership card in order to reduce the democratic deficit, but constitution stripping of this kind must
18:47:14 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:56:52 -!- user24 has joined.
18:58:07 <b_jonas> this one took a lot of time to solve. the point to take away for me is this: either stick to nice medium-long identifiers like I use in programs that I want others to see, or work on figuring out how to use short identifiers in a way that I don't end up confusing myself, using the same name for multiple things, using different names for the same thing, referring to the wrong variable, etc.
18:58:46 <b_jonas> I used to write programs with short identifiers, but that was ages ago, and I apparently forgot the trick, so for programs that use a lot of different variables I mess up
19:10:57 <zzo38> You can add comments if that can help to explain what a variable is for
19:13:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: that only helps in long programs. short variable names are for short programs that I write once then forget about them, like for AoC and all the short programs I write for one-off tasks
19:13:25 <b_jonas> the problem here is that I confuse the variables even as I write those short programs
19:13:47 <b_jonas> I don't remember them half an hour after I write the code
19:14:03 <b_jonas> can't predict them or understand them, unlike the medium-long ones that I'm used to
19:14:24 <b_jonas> perhaps it's just lack of practice, perhaps I should just not use a short variable name scheme at all
19:14:50 -!- TheLie has joined.
19:49:21 -!- imode has joined.
20:13:31 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:30:11 <zzo38> I have asked about rule 305.9 on rec.games.trading-cards.misc.rules, and have gotten a few replies, but they only say that rule 305.9 is meant to clarify that a land cannot be cast even if it has another type. However, I have failed to find any rule that specifically says that a land cannot be cast if some effect says to cast that card.
20:49:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, this is about the double-faced land things again. I'll have to check the rules if they patched the oversight with them.
20:49:55 <b_jonas> when the next rules version comes out, or is it already out?
20:55:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
20:56:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: I'm not complaining!
20:59:28 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79367&oldid=50976 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) links +++ cats
21:01:21 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79368&oldid=79367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 2007
21:01:29 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79369&oldid=79368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) dammit
21:02:03 <zzo38> I don't know. I they are, I will download it. However, they do write about them before the new rules are published, usually
21:02:41 <esowiki> [[Implieses]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79370&oldid=50995 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Append docile ocelots to the page
21:06:12 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:10:54 -!- earend1 has joined.
21:26:31 <nakilon> have a pull request https://github.com/fis/fungot/pull/1
21:26:31 <fungot> nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, one thing must be clear: we cannot blow the case out of all proportion to the fishing opportunities and the fight for windmills is one where a german would have faced prosecution. so the combined efforts of the member states, of which i have just heard the commissioner speak. a fine, resolute speech after the speech by the commissioner.
21:48:40 <nakilon> b_jonas I use such rules: 1) one char long variable name should only be used when it's standard, like i, j, k for indexes, n for "number of somethings", etc. 2) if I append "s" to it (like is, js, ks, ns) it means an array of them 3) the "_" variable name for one time usage
21:49:01 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
21:51:14 <nakilon> also could be "t" instead of "_"
21:55:27 -!- adu has joined.
21:56:18 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:57:06 <kmc> very haskelly
21:57:21 <kmc> except the haskellers use single letter names for everything because it makes them feel like they're doing math
21:59:02 <fizzie> Go-ers use a lot of single-letter names too, though I'm not sure why. It's a cultural thing.
22:11:39 <nakilon> fizzie I feel like now that source code is highlighted
22:12:11 <nakilon> no very correct though, since it's hard to see that p and g between " are text, not instructions
22:14:17 <fizzie> Mm, well, it's a hard problem. It doesn't seem to have highlighted the main source file, either.
22:15:33 <fizzie> Funnily enough, fungot does not use very much self-modifying code. If memory serves, I successfully ran it on an AOT compiler once.
22:15:34 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, you mentioned the hague convention of 1996 which, thankfully, was taken up with the arrogance of the world. the death penalty and the affirmation of the european institutions to put the extension of the mandate of the auto/ oil package which includes a visit to central america at the wto.
22:17:10 <nakilon> one "g" can easily be a part of horizontal string and an instruction from some vertical direction
22:17:55 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that was a caching issue, fungot.b98 is highlighted now that I reloaded it.
22:17:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i too had not intended the interpretation which has been followed here since the santini report. or if we have agreed at community level in the commission, mrs de palacio, of the type involved, specialized agriculture using a labour force which is in danger and that it will also provide a guarantee of industrial feasibility, respecting the financial interests of the consumer in this modern age demands. in
22:18:18 <fizzie> It doesn't understand a-f as numeric either, guess it's optimized for '93.
22:19:02 <fizzie> Well, at least it looks festive, which is appropriate for the season.
22:35:07 <nakilon> is Chris Pressey in this channel?
22:36:01 <fizzie> Sometimes, but not since September this year.
22:36:57 <fizzie> (What's wrong with my log-rsync?)
22:40:24 <fizzie> (Oh, the remote command it uses had changed from `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxC` to `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxCIvu` and I had made the key very picky in what can be done with it.)
22:42:37 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:20:56 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:25:35 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:27:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:31:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, the one time usage variables starting with underscore are easy, because I only have to write them once so it doesn't really matter what I name them. but already with an s suffix there's a problem: does s stand for sequence/array or string? how do I call the other? if I use v for arrays, then how do I abbreviate value? I just keep getting myself confused.
23:32:20 <b_jonas> I should probably just stick to longer names, it doesn't hurt that much to use them
23:32:49 <nakilon> when I mean string I add "str"
23:33:38 <nakilon> k, v for key and value when iterating over associating arrays, so I'll never call an array v
23:33:57 <b_jonas> if I try to use one-two-three letter variable names, there are just too many words that abbreviate to the common letters like s n d whatever, and oddly v too
23:35:03 <nakilon> if I mean array sometimes "array" is exactly how I name that var )
23:35:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't find that too strange. befunge doesn't force you to use self-modifying code for anything, it's not like you have to write indexes or anything into character cells, in fact it doesn't even provide good tools to write numbers to code, at most you can write booleans easily. not using self-modifying code is just the easiest way to write befunge.
23:36:13 <fizzie> Well, true. But it's sort of a signature move for the language.
23:36:17 <b_jonas> also sometimes I run into conflicts with the short keywords: in particular, I know I must not call an input file handle `if`, because that's a keyword
23:36:44 <fizzie> (The admin ^reload and ^code commands of course do self-modify, but that's kind of special.)
23:37:30 <fizzie> You can write numbers to code very easily in Funge-98, you just prepend the number with '
23:37:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, there is such a primitive? let me see
23:39:10 <fizzie> It's called the "one-shot stringmode".
23:39:44 <b_jonas> are the cells single bytes?
23:39:49 <nakilon> in Ruby 1.8 you could write ?a and that was a number corresponding to ascii a code
23:39:59 <fizzie> No, they're arbitrary integers, usually 32-bit signed ones.
23:40:02 <nakilon> then it changed so it's "a"
23:40:10 <b_jonas> so they're the same type as on the stack
23:40:30 <b_jonas> yes, that sounds like you can write self-modifying code (unless of course you want multi-threaded or otherwise reentrant code)
23:40:42 <b_jonas> it could be hard to optimize of course
23:42:04 <b_jonas> you'd need something like qemu that tracks which cells are compiled and what it has to recompile at every store, but qemu can do that efficiently because programs optimized for normal cpus already know that they shouldn't write and execute from the same page too much, because it can be very slow
23:42:29 <b_jonas> doing it at a granularity smaller than pages would be rather inefficient
23:42:35 <fizzie> I think gForth has that character literal syntax too.
23:42:56 <fizzie> I think it's sort of uncommon though.
23:42:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: and so do some lisps, though I think the prefix is two characters there
23:43:57 <fizzie> (In line with various other things beginning with #, like #t and #f for the booleans.)
23:45:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. I would actually like to see a convention where the octotrophe serves as eitehr a comment marker if there's a space before it, or a rare token suffix if there's no space before it, but it looks like the only language that does that is K the apl-like
23:45:38 <b_jonas> it would work because it's already a convention that there's always whitespace (or the beginning of the file) before a comment marker
23:46:14 <b_jonas> so this would effectively save one of the precious 33 ascii punctuation
23:50:44 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
00:03:31 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
00:38:36 <esowiki> [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79371&oldid=72565 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) eso style
00:40:17 <esowiki> [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79372&oldid=79371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* External resources */ deadlink, style
00:41:54 <esowiki> [[Template talk:Cn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79373&oldid=62043 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+163) /* Why does the template link to xkcd's comic Wikipedian Protester? */ reply
00:46:42 -!- MDude has joined.
01:03:11 -!- adu has joined.
01:46:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:47:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:49:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79374&oldid=79340 * Unl256 * (+208) /* Introductions */
01:55:16 <esowiki> [[Tiangou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79375 * Tetrapyronia * (+1084) Created page with "'''Tiangou''' is a derivative and wimpmode of [[Cerberus]]. It only has 1 line, which is a list of commands separated by spaces. All the commands correspond to one in Cerberus..."
01:57:09 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79376&oldid=79360 * Tetrapyronia * (+28)
01:58:47 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79377&oldid=79359 * Tetrapyronia * (+34) Added Tiangou
01:59:50 <fizzie> Bluh. VS Code's git integration certainly isn't philosophically aligned with good commit messages: it's a single-line textbox with no support for the recommendations about line widths and such.
02:00:41 <fizzie> https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/85721 "Most people don't really want a full editor taking away workbench space. They just want to type a message and move on."
02:30:50 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
03:16:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
03:17:21 -!- adu has joined.
04:12:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Scientificworld * New user account
04:40:11 <shachaf> aaaaaa: I stayed up until 5 last night.
04:40:22 <shachaf> I'm not sure I should actually be attending.
04:40:36 <shachaf> It might make more sense to watch videos.
04:41:17 <aaaaaa> yeah, this is sensible
04:50:02 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:54:15 <aaaaaa> I don't like videos at all. What is the sense to watch how someone download something, installs, etc.
04:55:18 <aaaaaa> Surely, video is the right format for cook or guitar lessons
04:55:43 <aaaaaa> But not for CS or math or programming
04:57:31 <int-e> Actually even for cooking and guitar lessons it seems more like a supplementary thing... you get to see how it's done, but there's still a lot of information that can be condensed into text and a few selected images.
04:59:31 <int-e> I absolutely agree with the sentiment, of course. Videos are hard to bookmark and hard to skim for relevant information.
05:17:27 <int-e> Oh and they're hard to annotate, too.
05:18:35 <arseniiv> math videos may be useful too, but I agree with int-e on for what extent
05:20:15 <arseniiv> like, showing low-dimensional geometric or topologic things and visualizations of many more concepts and something like that
05:20:16 <int-e> I suppose you can treat them as lectures.
05:20:48 <int-e> Meaning, something that makes it easier to hold your attention compared to reading a bunch of notes.
05:21:58 <arseniiv> but notes usually don’t have animation so in several cases you need to know how to animate in your head, and some don’t seem to be lucky to pick that automatically
05:22:00 <int-e> Maybe even take notes along the way so you have a reference. This is all theory though...
05:22:28 <arseniiv> notes are essential too, I think the same
05:23:25 <arseniiv> I note how I forget books for which I didn’t practice on paper for some extent
05:23:26 <int-e> shachaf: how's your hiding spot?
05:23:39 <shachaf> No more hiding since last time.
05:24:02 <int-e> no more island hopping either I guess
05:24:44 <int-e> Hmm, the AoC solvers are slowing down.
05:25:33 <int-e> almost 11 minutes for the 100th to reach the second part
05:29:32 <int-e> Anarchy of Confusion
05:29:53 <int-e> Appearance of Competence
05:30:20 <int-e> Absence of Confidence
05:30:38 <aaaaaa> https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/AOC
05:34:07 <HackEso> goldbuntucoin barandcoin zetalitzcoin waicoin cakenemonkecoin maticoin ble-2dcoin xsamcoin burrocoin raczcoin sepaitcoin pingcoin sqrcoin stecoin eyecoin spaceapiflemargfallercoin ozocoin unlcoin wilson-texcoin zadicoin
05:35:08 <int-e> "eyecoin" will attract Apple's ire for sure.
05:35:40 <Arcorann> aaaaaa: http://adventofrealizingicantread.com
05:36:32 <imode> who owns that lmao.
05:36:55 <int-e> hmm Creation Date: 2019-12-12T15:19:41Z
05:37:32 <int-e> and why does it forward to day 8
05:37:52 <imode> where the hell did it come from.
05:38:04 <Arcorann> Don't know, it was posted in another channel a while back
05:38:32 <int-e> I produced so many bugs yesterday it was embarrassing
05:38:42 <int-e> today went way more smoothly
05:39:20 <int-e> (yesterday I also had a nice list based solution for part 1, which really didn't generalize nicely for part 2)
05:39:31 <int-e> (which really annoyed me quite a bit)
05:39:40 <shachaf> I registered play.contact the other day.
05:40:19 <shachaf> The current implementation is a very rough proof of concept I wrote years ago.
05:40:33 <shachaf> And no one plays it anymore.
05:41:09 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_(video_game) <-- not this then I suppose
05:41:28 <shachaf> No, it's http://mrwright.name/stuff/contact.txt
05:41:41 <shachaf> Except with a program instead of IRC.
05:42:07 <shachaf> I should write up rules for my variant.
05:43:40 <shachaf> I wonder who this human is.
05:44:10 <int-e> "destabilize"... OW.
06:20:50 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:23:53 <zzo38> Finally, now I managed to get level 45 of the SANDY1 puzzle set to be initialized correctly. (Level 21 doesn't work; it results in a "type mismatch" error, due to a mistake in the level data itself. I am unlikely to fix this; the level designer should fix this. This is because many of the Switches have a Misc1 value of $Hero, and it is supposed to be a number.)
07:04:32 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
07:21:47 -!- user24 has joined.
07:32:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79378&oldid=79374 * Scientificworld * (+160)
07:33:15 <esowiki> [[Md5sha1fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79379 * Scientificworld * (+921) Created page with "'''Md5sha1fuck''' is an esolang invented by [[User:Scientificworld]]. ==Theory== Connect the md5 value and the sha1 value of the string together, detect all the characters o..."
07:35:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79380&oldid=79322 * Scientificworld * (+18) /* M */
07:41:03 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:41:14 <esowiki> [[User:Scientificworld]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79381 * Scientificworld * (+28) Meow~~
07:42:22 -!- user24 has joined.
07:43:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Scientificworld]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79382 * Scientificworld * (+35) Meow~~
07:57:57 <zzo38> Why does Hero Mesh have both Busy and UserSignal, even though they do the same thing?
08:22:15 -!- rain1 has joined.
08:52:42 -!- delta23 has joined.
09:30:10 <esowiki> [[SCAB computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79383&oldid=68721 * Mscibett * (-3)
09:31:54 <esowiki> [[TOGA computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79384&oldid=68884 * Mscibett * (-4)
10:14:39 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:32:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:39:52 -!- atslash has joined.
10:50:51 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:33:36 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:54:34 -!- delta23 has joined.
12:15:14 <fizzie> I do like turtle graphics, but there isn't really anything particularly *puzzling* about it, is there?
12:15:56 <int-e> Is that how you perceive today's AoC? Hmm.
12:16:06 <int-e> Actually I was annoyed by the nomenclature in part 2.
12:16:18 <fizzie> You don't think waypoints should move?
12:16:29 <int-e> I don't think it should be called a waypoint then.
12:20:39 <fizzie> I tried out VS Code's Go extension for the first time for today's puzzle, and it's insisting that the `day12` package I added doesn't exist in the squiggly-line diagnostics of the file where all the days get imported, but from the terminal it works just fine, so something's off there.
12:21:31 -!- earend1 has joined.
12:23:22 <int-e> It's bound to be some common but unnecessary convention.
12:24:10 <fizzie> Restarting the silly thing fixed it, which I kind of expected.
12:24:23 <fizzie> So I think some sort of a cache, but couldn't find any explicit action to refresh it.
12:26:16 <fizzie> Also still can't get over that git commit message thing. But the parts that do work just somehow feel more modern than Emacsing it (plus I just couldn't bear figuring out how to set up gopls and Emacs lsp-mode).
12:26:24 <int-e> vs code annoys me, it's too popular for something build on quicksand, I mean, Electron
12:27:15 <fizzie> It does seem to be very popular, yes.
12:27:22 <int-e> I also have to think of 100% CPU usage for a blinking cursor, though I understand they fixed that fairly quickly.
12:28:19 <fizzie> Oh, another positive: the diff view in the source control integration is nicer than Magit's.
12:30:09 <fizzie> But I'm still doing commit from the integrated terminal, which starts up Emacs for editing the commit message, which feels fairly silly. Saw on the Internet that people did have settings where you could get a new VS Code tab as the commit message editor, but I'd only want that when inside VS Code, and I don't think I can easily get that.
12:31:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe with some alias specific to the shell in that terminal, which passes the settings with -c.
12:50:59 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:54:09 <int-e> emacs inside a shell inside another IDE... sounds fun
12:55:13 <int-e> I use vim for commit messages, somehow. Mostly because I don't expect to use any advanced editing capabilities and vim still starts up more quickly.
12:55:50 <int-e> Though maybe by now hardware is fast enough that it doesn't really matter. 10 years ago it still mattered.
12:56:28 <int-e> But I'm a creature of habits.
12:58:19 <fizzie> I used to use Vim for that too, for a long time.
12:58:49 <fizzie> Then as part of setting up emacsclient and $EDITOR and whatnot, that accidentally got changed too, and I just let it be.
13:15:39 <esowiki> [[Tiangou]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79385&oldid=79375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) cats, hdr, link
13:17:40 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79386&oldid=79366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Example Program: Truth-machine */ shtack
13:27:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone too far).
13:48:11 <esowiki> [[Md5sha1fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79387&oldid=79379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) cats
13:48:48 <b_jonas> "but notes usually don’t have animation" => these days we have HTML (and all those computer algebra software worksheet software too), you can embed anything, even animation if it's helpful, or hyperlinks to other resources. such a useful invention.
13:49:10 <b_jonas> I don't see why "animate in hour head" is useful
13:50:19 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
13:56:12 <int-e> The HGC has not returned... I'm beginning to think that there just isn't a thematic virtual machine this time.
13:59:17 <fizzie> We're almost halfway through, I think that's getting quite likely.
13:59:35 -!- dionys has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:04:48 <int-e> Maybe there were complaints about tasks reusing code from previous days instead of starting from scratch.
14:05:10 * int-e likes speculating.
14:05:31 <int-e> shachaf: ^^this may interest you, I've found something I like.
14:11:06 -!- dionys has joined.
14:16:07 <fizzie> Here's a great VS Code + gopls behavior: I get "could not import" errors for (new-ish) packages inside the current module, but if I either open or close an editor window that has the `go.mod` file open, the problems go away. Keeping it open doesn't help: I have to either open or close an editor tab with the file.
14:16:12 <fizzie> Too much magic, that's what I say.
14:29:38 <fizzie> "could not import io (no package for import io)" this is getting ridiculous.
14:30:33 <fizzie> Don't know whether to blame gopls (it's in alpha) or VS Code (you called it quicksand).
14:49:06 -!- TheLie has joined.
15:08:24 <nakilon> coming up with docs and tests is hard _-- at least while I'm just starting
15:08:49 <nakilon> spent the whole day on one instruction with a single test
15:09:19 <nakilon> that discovered I had a bug
15:18:04 -!- MDude has joined.
15:31:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:35:29 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
15:36:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:36:13 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
15:46:07 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:53:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79388&oldid=79380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) [[Cerberus]], [[Tiangou]]
16:08:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:51:15 -!- LKoen has joined.
17:47:32 <esowiki> [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79389&oldid=75641 * Lebster * (+783) added hex column
17:48:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
17:50:53 <esowiki> [[Rogex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79390&oldid=70976 * Lebster * (-4) lowercase (doh!)
18:00:39 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:52:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:56:56 -!- catern has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:58:16 -!- ornxka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:59:05 -!- catern has joined.
18:59:10 -!- ornxka has joined.
19:02:10 <esowiki> [[Th]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79391&oldid=32447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* Addition */ cates
19:04:43 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:07:53 -!- imode has joined.
19:21:18 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
19:58:54 <shachaf> int-e: I thought you liked many things, and only this was an exception.
20:21:55 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:12:54 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
22:20:25 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:45:45 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:45:51 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:54:44 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:28:28 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:49:38 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:37:29 -!- nfd has joined.
00:37:45 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:42:47 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:49:22 <fizzie> Did days 1-9 of 2018 to get a little bit more context. Honestly they're not that dissimilar from this year, so I'm thinking 2019 was just very #esoteric-audience-appropriate year.
01:00:59 <nakilon> I could not continue 2019 in Befunge https://github.com/Nakilon/adventofcode-befunge
01:01:19 <nakilon> because the next task demanded dances with 'g' and 'p'
01:02:14 <nakilon> that's why I finally started making my language and I'll continue solving 2019 in it
01:02:57 <fizzie> I think we discussed how all those people who do the "every day a new language" challenge might've been a bit miffed about the whole Intcode thing.
01:24:59 -!- nfd has joined.
01:30:05 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:42:43 <b_jonas> oh nice! https://adventofcode.com/2020 so the ship is now moving east and slightly north so day 13 will be above day 12 on the world map
01:45:54 <fizzie> Yeah, could be we're filling all the gaps.
01:48:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
01:49:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:49:19 <b_jonas> also I managed to implement day 12 original the right way, so it was trival to add the twist for once
01:50:10 <fizzie> As another random observation, there's been no non-numeric answers so far.
01:51:15 <fizzie> Hmm, wonder what the error message is for non-numeric wrong answers. Presumably not higher/lower, at least.
02:20:39 <Arcorann> Something like 2018 day 7 is alphabetical
02:21:43 <Arcorann> And there've been a couple of times where we had to read out ASCII-art text
02:22:39 -!- nfd has joined.
02:25:09 <esowiki> [[User:UltimateProGrammer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79392&oldid=72591 * UltimateProGrammer * (-183) Update to not be dumb
02:25:50 <fizzie> Days 8 and 11 of 2019, and days 2, 7 and 10 of the ten first days of 2018 involved non-numeric answers.
02:26:42 <fizzie> I'd count ascii-art numbers as numeric, but ascii-art text is clearly alphabetical.
02:38:22 -!- nfd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:59:39 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:14:44 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
05:18:36 <HackEso> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
05:18:39 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
05:18:47 <HackEso> A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet.
05:20:42 <HackEso> 1130) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ê™®s, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
05:20:50 <int-e> uh-oh, what happened there
05:21:03 <HackEso> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
05:21:10 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/quotes
05:25:42 <int-e> `` cd ..; hg revert -r d3ee6de4b493 quotes
05:25:43 <HackEso> abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system
05:26:07 <HackEso> `revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/>. It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands.
05:26:18 <int-e> well, that's too coarse
05:27:38 <int-e> anyway, somebody used `fetch off channel in an attempt to (apparently) restore some old quote they missed and remove some others, but also completely destroyed the utf-8 in there
05:28:30 <HackEso> 1247) <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
05:28:51 <HackEso> 1239) <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there
05:29:40 -!- adu has joined.
05:30:47 <int-e> `fetch ../quotes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes
05:30:48 <HackEso> 2020-12-13 05:30:47 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes [161313/161313] -> "/hackenv/quotes" [1]
05:32:04 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
05:32:14 <HackEso> 1240) <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
05:33:02 <int-e> fizzie: the offending commit is https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/rev/369cb8f8fd16 is this what using the web editor looks like?
05:36:33 <int-e> ...and it went unnoticed for over 2 months...
05:37:47 <int-e> user3456: See above... I don't know what your intentions were in that change, but the result was really messed up.
05:40:06 <int-e> `le/rn addquote//The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there.
05:40:13 <HackEso> Learned 'addquote': The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there.
05:40:56 <HackEso> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
05:42:30 <int-e> And... I still wonder how to revert a file to an old revision... the `fetch thing works but it's breaking my heart.
06:16:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:17:58 <shachaf> Wasn't there a command for it?
06:18:27 <int-e> Well, probably. But it wasn't `revert
06:18:30 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
06:18:52 <int-e> and it's not mentined here either
06:20:02 <int-e> `` ls ../bin | wc -l
06:23:07 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
06:25:52 <shachaf> Let's see, there was `undo, but that's not the same.
06:26:44 <HackEso> 12018:2019-11-14 <b_jonäs> `` hg cat -r 9075 bin/random-card > bin/random-card \ 11974:2019-10-21 <b_jonäs> `` hg cat -r 11938 share/whatis > share/whatis \ 11762:2019-03-27 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 8425 wisdom/\\` >wisdom/\\` \ 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11504:2018-04-13 <shachäf> ` hg cat -r 4569 share/8ballreplies > share/ballreplies \ 11495:2018-04-12 <shachäf> ` hg ca
06:28:46 <int-e> yeah, that makes sense. thanks
06:29:51 <int-e> actually it's kind of lucky that hg revert doesn't work, because otherwise there'd now be a backup file to clean up
06:30:26 <int-e> `` doag | grep raw-file
06:30:30 <HackEso> 12357:2020-12-13 <int-̈e> fetch ../quotes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes \ 10317:2017-02-18 <fizzïe> ` sed -e \'s,index.cgi/file,index.cgi/raw-file,\' < bin/url > bin/raw-url # this one didn\'t even support tmp/ \ 4249:2013-12-30 <oerjän> learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg \ 2671:2013-04-14 <Jafe
06:31:06 <int-e> seems I was... creative
06:58:03 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, I just went back to expediting and right away found a new mechanic.
06:58:13 <shachaf> Unfortunately it prevents me from solving a puzzle, rather than allowing me to solve it.
06:59:33 <int-e> did it have a landmark
06:59:51 <int-e> or a friend? or was it just 100% disappointment?
07:01:16 <shachaf> In retrospect that island should have been relatively easy but I had a surprising amount of trouble with it.
07:04:50 <shachaf> Ah, no, I can get back through the rubber duck.
07:05:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
07:17:49 <int-e> hmm there's more to do there
07:19:50 <shachaf> Yes, I was just wondering about the footprints in the map there.
07:20:52 <shachaf> I was wondering whether that island was solvable on its own.
07:24:57 <int-e> so close yet so far
07:25:09 <shachaf> Just like friends in real life. :-(
07:25:39 <int-e> I haven't reached that one yet
07:27:54 -!- earend1 has joined.
07:37:29 <int-e> I haven't touched the game much either though. 513 islands now (+1 from last report)... that one had a friend though, remarkably.
07:37:56 <int-e> Which I hadn't seen before. So there are at least 10 friends to find.
07:43:16 -!- user24 has joined.
07:46:44 <shachaf> 513 sounds like way too many.
07:49:49 <int-e> I think you'll need 300 or 350 to reach the end
07:50:07 <int-e> but there's a lot of area to the sides
07:51:02 <int-e> And it's worth reaching the end first... it lifts the global fog so you can assess the area where islands are
07:51:26 <int-e> I hope that isn't a huge spoiler.
07:52:11 <shachaf> You've mentioned it already, anyway.
07:52:44 <int-e> (To my mind the fog is mainly fluff for flavor and guidance (see where you've been), not an essential part of the puzzles.)
07:53:55 <shachaf> I think "there's more to do there" was more arguably a spoiler.
07:54:05 <shachaf> Though I was just thinking along those lines myself anyway, seeing the footprints.
07:54:21 <int-e> Yeah I thought of that as a spoiler.
07:54:40 <int-e> Not a tremendously big one, but still.
07:57:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I like the puzzle at 264,237
07:57:34 <shachaf> Even if it's kind of simple
07:57:44 <shachaf> (The one right before the human bicycle.)
08:01:56 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:02:05 <shachaf> And it leads to a fun series of (easy) puzzles, too.
08:04:20 <shachaf> Or maybe they stop being easy, who knows.
08:08:02 <int-e> I can probably step on an island, reset it, and solve it again
08:08:21 <int-e> but I don't even know what puzzle theme is beyond the windmill
08:08:30 <int-e> (they are quite thematic)
08:09:56 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:13:12 <zzo38> Probably, the level compression of Free Hero Mesh should be improved. It is better than Hero Mesh (which doesn't compress and also is inefficient in its coding in other ways), but perhaps improvement could be made. I tried a few things that didn't work. (Maybe, if I try again 100 times then maybe it will eventually work, I don't know.)
08:13:52 <shachaf> The series I was talking about seems to have the theme "push off of a non-rock".
08:14:15 <int-e> zzo38: how many GB of data are you talking about
08:14:45 <int-e> shachaf: ah, littering
08:15:12 <zzo38> int-e: Less than one.
08:15:39 <int-e> zzo38: so maybe it's not worth improving the compression for
08:16:12 <zzo38> (But if a collection of many puzzle sets is made later, then there will be more.)
08:16:47 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren't_gonna_need_it
08:17:56 <zzo38> int-e: Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps it can even be simplified from what it is now (although it can still be made more efficient than the EKS format, which uses 16-bit fields even though only 8-bits are needed).
08:18:46 -!- arseniiv has joined.
08:18:48 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Dec 13 00:18:47 2020
08:19:15 <shachaf> I'm sort of supposed to be attending the SAT thing, too.
08:19:21 <shachaf> But I'll just watch the videos instead.
08:19:48 <int-e> I guess you miss the discussions
08:20:13 <int-e> (that is, the opportunity to participate in them)
08:20:36 <int-e> (which is intimidating and hard)
08:24:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
08:24:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
08:24:51 <shachaf> The main problem is that the talks themselves are recorded, and I don't want my voice in them.
08:25:11 <shachaf> I did type a few questions that the speaker answered, before.
08:25:25 <shachaf> Did I mention the surprising fact the speaker said?
08:25:54 <shachaf> The fact is: For UNSAT instances, you should restart very frequently, and for SAT instances, you should restart infrequently.
08:26:04 <shachaf> If you'd asked me to guess, I would've predicted the exact opposite.
08:27:14 <int-e> hmm, yeah that feels counterintuitive.
08:28:03 <zzo38> I will still need to fix the level compression anyways, since in one converted level, it results three Field objects at (7,1) even though there is supposed to be only two (although all but one is redundant anyways, but that is what it is in the original; it isn't my fault!)
08:29:43 <int-e> I can rationalize the former a bit, I guess: maybe for UNSAT the idea is that when you take a fresh look at the problem you gain insights (learn clauses) that are unrelated to what you did before... and hence maybe more useful
08:30:24 <int-e> rathet than comprehensively exploring a corner of the problem based on the first couple of choices you made.
08:31:12 <int-e> And SAT might actually need a distinction between problems with few models and problems with plenty of them.
08:33:48 <zzo38> What does UNSAT mean?
08:34:33 <int-e> unsatisfactory... sorry, kidding. unsatisfiable
08:35:13 <shachaf> int-e: My original intuition for restarting was, maybe you get stuck in some difficult and fruitless subtree for a long time, and if you'd just started with a slightly different guess you'd've found a solution immediately.
08:35:24 <shachaf> But that seems more applicable to SAT than to UNSAT.
08:35:37 <int-e> SAT and UNSAT are names for the yes and no answer of a (here: propositional) satisfiability problem.
08:36:00 <shachaf> I mean, if there is a solution, it seems like maybe you can jump around and hope to find it.
08:36:11 <shachaf> But if there isn't one then it seems like you'd need to be more exhaustive.
08:36:15 <int-e> shachaf: Right, but one of the lessons here, I think, is that you really have to think in terms of learning.
08:36:19 <shachaf> Certainly for regular DPLL it seems like that's how it'd work.
08:36:32 <shachaf> Right, I was about to say. It must be about clause learning things that I don't have a good feel for here.
08:37:02 <shachaf> I meant "more applicable to SAT instances than to UNSAT instances".
08:37:17 <int-e> Yeah I've been there :)
08:38:16 <int-e> As you probably know there are randomized solvers that are only good for SAT instances... random walks are kind of continuous restarts
08:39:03 <int-e> I don't know whether they're still better than CDCL solvers for SAT instances. They used to be.
08:41:57 <aaaaaa> int-e: WalkSAT. But only good for underconstrained problems. I.e., that can have many solutions. AFAIR!
08:44:28 <shachaf> Randomized solvers as in local search?
08:45:28 <shachaf> https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.4413 makes the argument that CDCL solvers with very frequent restarts are very similar to local search.
08:50:46 <int-e> That resonates... I may have seen or heard that idea before somewhere.
08:51:09 <int-e> Can't place it though.
08:57:04 <aaaaaa> Have you seen this? https://github.com/marijnheule/microsat
08:57:22 <aaaaaa> Nice code, but a possible contender for IOCCC title
09:00:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine).
09:00:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
09:01:35 <shachaf> I've seen it and even worked through most of the code, I think.
09:02:03 <shachaf> I should fix up my solver.
09:02:19 <shachaf> I was thinking the big thing I need to do was VSIDS.
09:02:32 <aaaaaa> shachaf: have you seen more SAT solvers like that to study? I already saw TAOCP 7.2.2.2 solvers...
09:02:42 <int-e> 2017, hmm. Yeah I've probably seen it, glanced at it, balked at the coding style, and gone away. Oh, actually I seem to recall shachaf mentioning it here around the time they started on their own solver.
09:02:46 <shachaf> But the talk the other day said that modern solvers can do as well as VSIDS with a relatively simple move-to-front heuristic.
09:03:16 <shachaf> aaaaaa: Nothing that short.
09:03:34 <aaaaaa> shachaf: maybe a bit longer :)
09:03:38 <shachaf> I read some of the TAOCP solver code too.
09:03:56 <shachaf> Of course I looked at minisat.
09:04:09 <shachaf> Just think of prefixes that mean "small", add "sat" at the end, and see if you find something.
09:04:19 <shachaf> picosat exists but I don't know much about it.
09:04:35 <shachaf> http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/lect/taocp-sat/knuth/pdf/sat13.pdf is the literate PDF.
09:06:25 <aaaaaa> BTW, is there any good reason to use Knuth's literate style over commented code?
09:07:34 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe if you like explaining your code more than writing it... )
09:08:09 <aaaaaa> int-e: yes, for textbooks, for example. Like TAOCP itself.
09:08:14 <zzo38> aaaaaa: Sometimes, I think. If the purpose is to describe the algorithms or the rules or something like that, I think that it can help; trying to describe it without the code is often not working as well, and just an ordinary program code is not so suitable for describing it.
09:09:12 <aaaaaa> Can't a tool like Doxygen help it?
09:09:42 <shachaf> I like the property of 2SAT that, if you make an incorrect guess, you'll always find that out through unit propagation.
09:09:55 <shachaf> So you only need a stack of size 1.
09:09:58 <int-e> My understanding of literate programming is that you're writing a text document from which a program can be extracted.
09:10:26 <shachaf> String glob matching -- foo*bar*vaz -- also has that property, that you only need to backtrack to the most recent *
09:10:44 <zzo38> Doxygen is for making the documentation of each function and stuff in the program, not for explaining the algorithms, I think.
09:10:58 <int-e> And the emphasis is on the text. I suppose you can use web as a fancier macro language. I haven't seen anybody do it, except Knuth.
09:11:25 <shachaf> I don't like Doxygen-style documentation very much.
09:11:36 <aaaaaa> int-e: yes, somehow, it's not popular at all. Knuth got it wrong?
09:11:38 <shachaf> I'd rather read the source code comments directly in most cases.
09:11:59 <zzo38> I don't like Doxygen much either, actually.
09:12:03 <int-e> shachaf: it's a theme in some classic dynamic programming tasks, like finding the longest increasing subsequence
09:12:25 <int-e> aaaaaa: I don't think he got it wrong.
09:12:38 <int-e> aaaaaa: It seems to have worked brilliantly for himself.
09:12:52 <int-e> But most people aren't Knuth.
09:12:53 <shachaf> Knuth says that thanks to literate programming he's able to write more complicated programs than he would otherwise.
09:13:06 <aaaaaa> int-e: another his tool is TeX, which has immense popularity
09:14:21 <int-e> Well, LaTeX more than plain TeX.
09:14:48 <zzo38> Yes, LaTeX is used much more, although a few people (including myself, and also Knuth) use Plain TeX.
09:15:11 <int-e> Because LaTeX liberates you from having to think about string processing and stuff like catcodes.
09:15:19 <aaaaaa> zzo38: is there any good reason to try plain TeX over LaTeX?
09:15:36 <shachaf> Can you teach me any kittycatcodes?
09:15:58 <int-e> `? procrastination
09:16:00 <HackEso> The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this final funny cat clip on youtube.
09:16:26 <shachaf> I suppose kissat has kittycatcodes.
09:16:36 <zzo38> aaaaaa: Well, I find it less confusing, at least. I think also it is more likely to work in future because it is not going to be changed so much
09:16:39 <int-e> well that one is a literal cat
09:16:57 <int-e> not to be confused with a literate cat
09:17:07 <int-e> or a littering cat
09:17:14 <aaaaaa> zzo38: OK. Any TeX sources to learn from, except from Knuth's website?
09:17:29 <shachaf> You could read the TeXbook presumably.
09:17:37 <aaaaaa> shachaf: yeah, forgot about it
09:18:15 <zzo38> Yes, that is my idea too, is to read the TeXbook.
09:19:51 <int-e> there are also some attempts of reconstruction like https://doi.org/10.1017/S0956796897002840
09:20:32 <int-e> or maybe this copy https://www.rw.cdl.uni-saarland.de/people/heckmann/private/abstracts/neuform.html
09:21:19 <int-e> Though that is on the typesetting end, not on the esolang end of TeX.
09:22:12 <zzo38> My "Scientific Role Playing System" is written with Plain TeX. I also added macros to make cross-references, table of contents, etc. You could look at it to use as the example for your own use, if you want to do, I suppose.
09:22:40 <zzo38> (I also included fonts with unslanted Greek alphabets, in case you need that.)
09:26:32 <zzo38> The Fossil repository is at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui You can clone with Fossil or view it in a web browser; select "Files" to view the files.
09:27:25 <zzo38> If a table spans multiple pages, you can write "(Continued on next page)" at the bottom of each page, and repeat the table heading at the top of each page.
09:28:47 <shachaf> zzo38: You should enable TLS for your HTTP server, so that I can see it easily.
09:29:44 <zzo38> Some uses of TeX that have cross references require you to run TeX multiple times, but that is actually unnecessary. While a non-immediate \write in a page will not work unless the page is shipped out, you can use insertions containing marks.
09:31:09 <zzo38> shachaf: I did intend to enable TLS, and may do so later, but right now it isn't.
09:31:35 <shachaf> i,i translation lookaside suffer
09:33:06 <zzo38> I also wrote a style guide for SciRPS; if you like to review and know how to review such a thing, then you might do so to write a complaint of it.
09:33:13 <int-e> three letter supplement
09:34:41 <int-e> totally lousy security
09:39:11 -!- Arcorann has joined.
09:53:22 <zzo38> The list of skills in SciRPS is incomplete, and maybe you might have some more idea what skills to add, too.
10:14:31 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, sadly the web editor only works with ascii files, as I learned back when I tried to edit the whatis database. that's when I added an addwhatis command.
10:17:17 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/python3 \ import sys, os, re, getopt \ # allow options for future compatibility \ opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "") \ newd = dict() \ def procnew(arg): \ match = re.fullmatch(r"([^\x00\r\n()]+\([0-9A-Z_a-z]+\))" \ r"(?: ?| - ([^\x00\r\n]*?))\r?\n?", arg) \ if match: \ key, val = match.group(1), match.group(2) \ if key in newd: \ print("addwhatis: duplicate key in input: %r" %
10:17:23 <HackEso> `edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
10:18:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think hg revert is to revert uncommitted changes, and you revert an earlier committed change with ... dunno. apparently not svn merge, not git revert, so no idea how
10:24:06 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> The main problem is that the talks themselves are recorded, and I don't want my voice in them." => can you ask typed questions even during?
10:28:29 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Just think of prefixes that mean "small", add "sat" at the end, and see if you find something." => suffixes too, like there's probably a "sat'lite"
10:40:40 -!- rain1 has joined.
10:48:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:54:20 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
11:59:59 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> i,i translation lookaside suffer" lol
12:05:19 <b_jonas> (even though I think "translation lookaside buffer" is such a stupid name, it should just be called "page table cache" or "paging cache". though admittedly Knuth calls it the "translation cache".)
12:06:41 <int-e> Tinkerbell's Lip Service
13:52:43 <fizzie> int-e: Right, there was something along those lines wrong with the web thing, but it's using a framework(tm), and I think I couldn't figure out why exactly it was behaving like that. It's Python/Flask, and the part that's my code *looks* like it should be just UTF-8 everywhere, but of course HTTP has its own thing about encoding negotiation, and none of that seemed to be exposed.
13:53:40 <fizzie> Maybe I should just put a big bold warning up saying "please don't use this interface for files containing non-ASCII text". Or reimplement it.
13:56:39 <fizzie> The "maintains a separate copy, needs manual sync with the repo" model is I think also a little hard to (a) explain (b) grok. Maybe there's something better.
14:27:26 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:41:20 <esowiki> [[EsoKit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79393&oldid=46251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Licensing */ cat
14:49:54 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
14:50:05 <esowiki> [[Omnifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79394&oldid=70942 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Missing links in this page's evolution
14:58:26 <esowiki> [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79395&oldid=68366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) Give some structure
14:58:46 <esowiki> [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79396&oldid=79395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ m
15:00:00 <esowiki> [[Category:Joke, kinda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79397&oldid=69477 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) Please use
15:08:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79398&oldid=79189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) Male
15:09:36 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79399&oldid=79275 * Skyespr * (+184) updated since changes to the language (v0.9)
15:14:59 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:20:37 <fizzie> Heh, not surprised day 13 scored pretty high on the old twistiness. Though not as high as last year: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/twist.html
15:22:44 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79400&oldid=68195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* See also */ list
15:23:07 <rain1> i like that chart!
15:24:39 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79401&oldid=68194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* See also */ others
15:24:47 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79402&oldid=79401 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) /* See also */ rm self link
15:25:09 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79403&oldid=68197 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* See Also */ links
15:25:22 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79404&oldid=79400 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* See also */ link
15:25:45 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79405&oldid=68192 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* See Also */ lInks
15:27:04 <fizzie> The twistiness metric is \frac{\sum_{i=1}^{100} T_2^i}{\sum_{i=1}^{100} T_1^i}.
15:27:15 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79406&oldid=79405 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Syntax */ 51
15:27:44 <fizzie> Or in other words, the total amount of time used by the first 100 people to get two stars, divided by the total amount of time used by the (likely different) first 100 people to get one star.
15:27:49 -!- imode has joined.
15:28:51 <fizzie> So more informally, it's a number >= 1 that measures how much harder part 2 was compared to part 1.
15:30:58 <fizzie> I've also plotted https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.one.html and https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html that just show the leaderboard times (with the thick bar showing the 25..75 range, and the thin rule showing the 1..100 range).
15:31:41 <int-e> fizzie: the thing that troubled me most today was sign errors.
15:31:59 <int-e> t = i (mod m) instead of t = -i (mod m)
15:32:20 <fizzie> I did the "% isn't actually modulo" thing.
15:33:13 <int-e> Oh I did not implement (or reuse) egcd.
15:33:20 <fizzie> (In Go, as in C, it's the remainder from the truncated-towards-zero division.)
15:34:20 <fizzie> I don't know if my solution is as elegant as it could be, but it runs in no appreciable amount of time, so it's fine. Just feel like it's missing a trick somewhere.
15:34:22 <int-e> and I trusted the system to be solvable
15:37:18 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1176718/ is the heart of my solution (with comments added right now)
15:37:49 <int-e> Bezout meets KISS.
15:38:51 <int-e> Oh and I flipped a sign; for the description to be correct the x + s should be x - s.
15:39:24 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined.
15:39:30 <fizzie> I've got something quite similar except iterative, and I've replaced `lcm a b` with a*b, because all the initial numbers are prime, so all the pairs are coprime.
15:40:16 <LegionMammal978> I'm actually rather surprised that today scored so high on twistyness. I just recognized it as a Chinese Remainder problem and downloaded a preexisting library for it.
15:40:17 <int-e> I didn't look at the input that closely
15:40:23 <int-e> but it makes sense that the ids are prime
15:40:35 <int-e> LegionMammal978: people don't know what that is
15:40:48 <int-e> LegionMammal978: you could see yesterday that people struggle with basic linear algebra
15:41:04 <fizzie> Go doesn't have a gcd/lcm built-in, so.
15:41:25 <int-e> fizzie: sure I might look more closely at the list then and do the same
15:42:56 <LegionMammal978> I will admit, though, that when I saw the second part of day 11 I just threw my hands up in defeat due to the silly CA neighborhood rules.
15:44:51 <fizzie> Couldn't find a library to do that?-)
15:45:14 <int-e> fizzie: the proper solution involves a modular inverse. When a and b are coprime, then r (mod a) and s (mod b) combine into r + a*(s-r)*(a^-1 (mod b)) (mod ab), noting that thanks to the multiplication by a, the (mod b) gets lifted to something (mod ab).
15:45:49 <fizzie> It was a bit wonky, but so was the CA for 2019 day 24 part 2.
15:46:11 <LegionMammal978> fizzie: In fact, I did use a library for the first part, but it ended up being very slow due to the library's poor documentation.
15:46:36 <int-e> but since all ids were small the simple (though not quite naive) approach won the day
15:47:04 <int-e> modular inverses can be computed using the extended euclidean algorithm, of course.
15:47:32 <int-e> And indeed there must be libraries for this.
15:50:07 <int-e> GP/PARI has this: chinese(Mod(1,5), Mod(6,21)) = Mod(6, 105)
15:50:18 <fizzie> int-e: Right, makes sense. I do in fact have a Go `func modinv(a, m int64) int64` in 2019 day 22 solutions.
15:50:52 <fizzie> (And `func egcd(a, b int64) (g, x, y int64)` as well.)
15:52:05 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:52:33 <int-e> my personal 'part 1 rank' / 'part 2 rank' is 8.05
15:54:06 <int-e> (that's a really weird metric)
15:57:53 <esowiki> [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79407&oldid=79399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* output */ Fix a cat
15:59:00 <nakilon> would be one chart instead of 20
16:04:12 <fizzie> And I think it's easier to see values from a bar chart than judge shades in a heat map.
16:05:01 <fizzie> Especially for the other one that shows four values per day.
16:06:01 <nakilon> with 25 charts where values are grouped you are limited to compare years within a task number and can't easily compare tasks within a year
16:06:27 <fizzie> Well, that's what I plotted it for, really.
16:06:58 <nakilon> you would easily see both views in case of heat map
16:07:34 <nakilon> color adds the third dimension
16:08:34 <fizzie> Like I said, I think it's easier to read values from an axis than from a shade.
16:09:03 <nakilon> in case of 25 charts there is tautology because you are already able to see which of 5 bars is 1st and which is 2nd, etc. and colors have no function so it's effectively black and white
16:09:25 <fizzie> ...and not to repeat myself, but the other chart needs to show four values per day.
16:09:37 <fizzie> Well, not "needs to", but "wants to".
16:10:13 <fizzie> (Maybe that other chart should be one of those violin plots, though, those are so fancy.)
16:10:55 -!- earend1 has joined.
16:12:01 <nakilon> they happen every evening now but when I get up and come to the window they end already
16:12:23 <nakilon> they should work in such way that there are 1-2 shots and then pause to let people come to windows
16:12:31 -!- delta23 has joined.
16:19:03 <kmc> no they should just go off continuously for 48 hours
16:19:06 <kmc> then there's no missing them
16:20:11 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:21:37 <myname> https://i.redd.it/l6qsnijz7w461.png
16:23:07 <fizzie> Heh. It's even rather more clear by now.
16:23:15 <fizzie> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=US&q=chinese%20remainder%20theorem
16:24:03 <fizzie> Or https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=chinese%20remainder%20theorem worldwide, where it hasn't flattened down so much, presumably thanks to timezones.
16:24:07 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
16:24:23 <int-e> you're saying AoC has an impact?
16:24:36 <fizzie> "Related queries": advent of code, advent of code day 13, advent of code 2020 day 13, wolfram alpha.
16:26:08 <fizzie> The cathode ray theorem.
16:26:32 <fizzie> Or the Chinese remainder tube.
16:44:19 <arseniiv> <nakilon> they happen every evening now but when I get up and come to the window they end already => oh they do! (when they are)
16:45:40 <arseniiv> also they tend to appear hidden by trees or in places where you can’t see from your windows
16:49:09 <fizzie> By popular demand (N=1): https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/twist.heat.html
16:50:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:00:28 -!- TheLie has joined.
17:06:10 <nakilon> I'm almost done with my lang (done with a part of implementing, testing and documeting the Befunge's part) -- now the main instruction left and I can start coding in it
17:09:28 <nakilon> didn't know about Vega -- I'll try it next time I chart anything
17:42:40 <fizzie> I learned of Altair (basically, the Python API for Vega/Vega-Lite) from fiddling with Google Colab things, and it seemed okay.
17:48:36 -!- adu has joined.
18:04:24 -!- sprocklem has joined.
18:10:11 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:41:55 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
18:53:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: this is the new fungeoid that's like befunge but without self-modifying code?
19:02:45 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:11:09 -!- b_jonas has joined.
19:11:54 <nakilon> b_jonas it will be with random read access to the stack instead of reading/writing to the program space
19:12:23 <nakilon> I guess I'll need to clarify the "read" word everywhere, forgot about that
19:12:42 <nakilon> and with Rational data type instead of byte or 32bit
19:13:35 <nakilon> so you can put any number to the stack
19:34:55 <b_jonas> nakilon: I see. will you add random access from the bottom so that the coder doesn't have to count stack elements and adjust addresses? or some storage other than the stack, for even more convenience?
19:51:06 <nakilon> bottom is kind of ephemeral in funge
19:51:11 <nakilon> it's an eternal source of zeros
19:51:57 <nakilon> in my opinion coder should not think there is a bottom
19:53:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: ok, how about some other place of storage besides the stack then?
19:53:45 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
19:53:59 <nakilon> b_jonas I'll see if it's needed, I don't reject the idea of the second stack yet
19:54:10 <nakilon> I'll see on practice if I feel that I need it
19:54:24 <b_jonas> is the specification online? linked from https://esolangs.org/wiki/ or something?
19:54:44 <nakilon> it's here https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel
19:55:10 <nakilon> I'll move to wiki later in somewhat different form, with examples, etc.
19:56:42 <b_jonas> "Lines with no non-space characters at the end of the source file are trimmed." => ooh, that will be a fun corner case when you try to jump over that line with a trampoline
19:57:36 <b_jonas> "exit with code taken from the stack
19:57:39 <b_jonas> If the value isn't integer and isn't within 0..255 the error is raised" => hmm....
19:58:19 <b_jonas> I don't usually like silencing errors, but for exit converting the exit status silently is one of the few cases that I would support. not that it matters much since the program will exit either way.
20:00:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: um, what kind of arithmetic exactly do the / and % operations do, if these are rational numbers?
20:01:59 <b_jonas> nakilon: um, can this only do reads from deep in the stack, not writes?
20:02:59 <b_jonas> I do understand that it's technically Turing-complete with just deep reads, but it's much harder to write programs for it that way, especially efficient practical ones
20:04:02 <b_jonas> because you can't discard information from the stack, ever, if there's more than a few bits above it that you have to keep
20:04:49 <b_jonas> or... maybe you can somehow with arbitrary precision integers. is there a way to swap the top two elements with these instructions, like with - or something?
20:05:30 <b_jonas> there's a backslash instruction. so maybe you can encode a full stack to just the top element, but it's definitely not a practical way to write programs, it's more like the kind of torture that ais523 likes.
20:12:37 <nakilon> # that will be a fun corner case when you try to jump over that line with a trampoline
20:12:39 -!- MDude has joined.
20:12:48 <nakilon> thanks, I'll cover it here probably https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/3bbc664a04e8267e7a4780b0aff0bd483a0cf0ec/test.rb#L68
20:14:58 <nakilon> b_jonas the trouble will be for those who got used to Befunge if they don't push 0 before exit and if they care about the exit code
20:15:38 <nakilon> but if they don't care it's just an exit code, no "error message" or "backtrace" is designed
20:15:57 <nakilon> nor it is for Befunge I guess
20:17:03 <nakilon> the / % arithmetics are like in Ruby
20:17:06 <nakilon> irb(main):002:0> 2r / 3 * 6
20:17:33 <nakilon> irb(main):003:0> 2r/3 + 4r/5
20:18:42 <nakilon> in case of Befunge with the integer math by default the division for negative numbers had to clarify in which side to round
20:18:53 <nakilon> in case of Rational there is no rounding, nothing to worry about
20:22:53 <nakilon> b_jonas I guess I understood your point, the inability to push deeper of from the other side may suck
20:23:11 <nakilon> I'm thinking now about positional swap, lol
20:24:32 <nakilon> either something like that or at least defining the bottom of the stack and push to the bottom
20:37:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: what does % do then? or how do you compute the floor of a number?
20:37:37 <b_jonas> no wait, make that easier. how do you compute the floor of a positive number?
20:40:03 <nakilon> actually I guess the trimming corner case was already covered in '"' test but I'll make there too to be sure
20:41:40 <nakilon> irb(main):001:0> (5r/3) % 1
20:43:06 <nakilon> $ echo "53/1%.@" | ./bin/rasel
20:44:08 <nakilon> n$ echo "83/:1%-.@" | ./bin/rasel
20:47:05 <b_jonas> ok, so the % computes one of the many remainder or modulus operations, and you can use that to compute the floor. good.
20:47:12 <b_jonas> then at least the arithmetic works
20:55:06 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:01:45 <esowiki> [[Regular expression]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79408&oldid=8029 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) Add alternate names
21:01:48 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:08:45 <esowiki> [[Voxvy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79409&oldid=78134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) Add more langs (from original document)
21:09:20 <esowiki> [[Voxvy IDE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79410 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) redirect
21:27:02 <nakilon> "Of course, your expense report is much larger."
21:29:53 <esowiki> [[Stu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2844) Add Stu
21:30:28 <esowiki> [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79412&oldid=79411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Truth-machine */ Cats
21:31:52 <shachaf> b_jonas: I agree, it's a silly name.
21:33:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79413&oldid=79388 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* S */ +[[Stu]]
21:34:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79414&oldid=79398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Languages */ +[[Stu]]
21:36:29 <esowiki> [[Stue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79415&oldid=9180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+145) cats
21:38:40 <esowiki> [[Voxvy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79416&oldid=79409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Languages included */ Add link to [[Stu]] (HZOP/RFN/etc. all exist, but they are off-wiki)
21:38:44 -!- delta23 has joined.
21:41:10 <nakilon> I'm thinking if _ and | are really needed as two instructions
21:41:44 <nakilon> it can be one instruction that works as nop() if true and as reverse() if false
21:48:22 <b_jonas> nakilon: but isn't a conditional reversing direction inconvenient in befunge because you need a trampoline to really use it?
21:49:19 <nakilon> funge languages are inconvinient by nature ..D
21:49:46 <myname> i think you misspelled awesome
21:50:21 <nakilon> I can't tell it's always a free spot on both sides of | or _ -- you often need to insert a line and place <>v^ right on the exit from this instruction
21:51:56 <fizzie> IME, | and _ are quite convenient because often you need to $ a number, and you know for sure whether it's zero or non-zero, so you often get to use _ or | to both change direction and discard a number with one instruction.
21:52:22 <fizzie> (I call that a "discard-if".)
21:53:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but in this language they distinguish between negative and nonnegative, or something like that, not zero and nonzero
21:53:40 <fizzie> I haven't been following that.
21:54:11 <b_jonas> positive vs nonpositive apparently
21:54:32 <b_jonas> north or west for positive
21:54:36 <b_jonas> south or east for nonpositive
22:09:10 <nakilon> yep, to deprecate the "greater than" conditional instruction I made these non-symmetrical around zero
22:10:40 <nakilon> to convert "if > 0" to "if >= 0" just add 1 (won't work for float I guess though)
22:12:57 <nakilon> and if you do "0\-1+" it will work like "!" before conditions
22:13:11 <nakilon> maybe there are shorter replacements
22:13:39 <nakilon> these optimizations would depend on the exact algorithm you need
22:17:30 <b_jonas> int-e: re modular inverse: yes, but the numbers are so small that you don't need any of the fast ways to compute it. the largest bus period I have in the live example file is 509, in the examples it's 1889, and there's an easy way to compute the modular inverse in a loop with as many iterations as the modulus
22:18:54 <b_jonas> and the moduluses are relative primes too, though I guess you needn't know that in advance
22:19:58 <b_jonas> mind you, there's also an easy way to compute the gcd in a loop with as many steps as one of the moduluses
22:21:32 <b_jonas> also all the calculation easily fits in 64-bit integers
22:28:46 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it's intentional that all integer-y AoC problems fit in 56-bit integers.
22:29:01 <fizzie> For those poor saps on languages with just a double-precision float.
22:30:36 <b_jonas> ah, in doubles, not only in 64-bit ints? possible
22:32:52 <fizzie> The largest answer I've got in 2019 results is in the order of 2^48, though of course that doesn't mean no intermediate quantities were larger.
22:54:18 <nakilon> hmmmm, adapting 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@' to a single conditional '?' is tricky
23:15:40 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79417&oldid=78304 * Baguette * (+4) Made the script call the Ruby env with /usr/bin/env, rather than an absolute path
23:21:48 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:28:39 -!- TheLie has joined.
23:34:07 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:39:39 -!- joast has joined.
23:54:27 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
23:54:43 -!- b_jonas has joined.
23:54:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Client Quit).
00:01:50 -!- b_jonas has joined.
00:23:32 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:44:14 <esowiki> [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79418&oldid=79412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Infinite cat program */ Until EOF
00:45:22 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79419&oldid=79417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Trivial brainfuck substitution interpreter */ Cat
00:57:27 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:09:54 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
01:16:44 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79420&oldid=74492 * Unl256 * (+97) /* External resources */
01:48:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:48:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:49:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:13:47 <nakilon> That's the right answer! You are one gold star closer to saving your vacation. [Continue to Part Two]
02:14:46 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/n7bd/slim
02:15:02 <nakilon> 2020 day 1 is solved in RASEL ..)
02:15:37 <b_jonas> nakilon: ok, although technically it only counts as solving in a new language if the language is older than the task specification
02:18:49 <nakilon> the lack of '+' and '*' obviously result in more instructions used
02:19:28 <nakilon> but it's interesting how non-trivial it becomes, there are different approaches to the same thing instead of one straight forward
02:20:51 <nakilon> for example, to compare the number with 2020, in Befunge I would build 2020 first as 59*:*5-, then -, then I already can call _ or |
02:22:43 <nakilon> but here I had to find another approach, and I'm not if it's optimal but I added 5 (05--), then divided by 45 twice (5/5/9/9/) -- after that if the number was 2020 the result should be exactly 1
02:23:16 <nakilon> how do I check if it's 1? I subtract 1 check if it's positive, then negate and check if it's positive again
02:23:38 <nakilon> that's far more complex than in Befunge but a good playground for golfing ..D
02:24:19 <b_jonas> I should write up my favorite programming practice tasks somewhere so I can just link to them. I know I've told them in chat often, but that's chat.
02:26:10 <b_jonas> of course you probably already know some of the stock ones, like print hello world, print the first 100 prime numbers, fizzbuzz, etc
02:27:06 <nakilon> does anyone have the first task solution in Befunge? I would like to compare the size
02:28:32 <b_jonas> that's quite specific. if fizzie doesn't have it then probably nobody does.
02:30:59 <fizzie> I haven't been doing Befunge. I kind of thought about it, though. Maybe I should.
03:01:06 <fizzie> Here's a quickly thrown together Befunge-98 version of 2020 day 1 part 1. It's not necessarily going to be *good* Befunge-98, mind you: http://ix.io/2HXh
03:01:50 <fizzie> Very much in the "use playfield cells as variables" style.
03:10:50 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79421&oldid=79080 * Pppery * (-2) /* Implementations */ "An interpreter has been implemented in perl "
03:16:20 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79422&oldid=79421 * Pppery * (-94) /* Examples */
03:29:34 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
03:32:10 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:56:21 <nakilon> you wrote it several times faster than I would do that
03:57:26 <fizzie> I spent at least half of that trying to find a browser-friendly Befunge-98 debugger, because I'm very lacking of a locally installed Befunge development environment at the moment.
03:58:55 <fizzie> For the record, landed on https://misc.purkka.codes/jsfunge-98/befunge98.html which doesn't do input, so I had to debug it with a 2a*a*a*1fp2a*2fp3 in place of the input loop to preload 2000, 20 as my expense report.
03:59:19 <fizzie> Then ran it on cfunge locally on my AoC puzzle input; but cfunge isn't that great for debugging.
04:00:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.).
04:00:54 <fizzie> I did in fact get it almost right on the first try without the debugger, just had 00g where I needed a fg00gfg, i.e., it was printing the product of the *indices* of the matching values, not the product of the matching values.
04:01:38 -!- Taneb has joined.
04:05:04 -!- adu has joined.
04:24:33 <int-e> b_jonas: I knew that and in fact I didn't implement or use modular inverses in my solution... but we meandered to the question of how to do it efficiently
05:39:18 -!- arseniiv has joined.
06:08:28 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
06:40:27 <b_jonas> also it looks from the world map like we'll have to leave this island in a few days for some reason, even though the flavor text suggested that this is our destination island
06:40:52 <Arcorann> We were diverted to another island due to the storm, remember?
06:51:58 <int-e> totally blown off course
06:52:27 <b_jonas> then I didn't follow the flavor enough
07:11:04 <int-e> maybe in the end the path will crisscross all around the map and spell out an obscenity
07:11:19 <int-e> or look like a penis
07:12:10 <int-e> https://dailyhive.com/mapped/penis-flight-russia
07:31:57 <zzo38> Have you made implementations with bug for bug compatibility of complex programs?
07:34:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
07:34:40 <int-e> Intel famously did with the A20 line.
07:35:01 <int-e> . o O ( best abuse of keyboard controller )
07:36:40 <zzo38> Yes, I know that there are many that did, but I mean to ask how many people on here have done.
07:38:25 <int-e> Oh actually I contributed a patch to npiet once that emulates an implementation bug in the (a?) perl interpreter, because one of the programs (towers of hanoi) that I had relied on that.
07:38:31 <int-e> So... I suppose the answer is yes.
07:39:19 <zzo38> OK. What specific bug is that?
07:40:54 <int-e> I forgot. Something with positioning after sliding through white areas.
07:41:36 <int-e> This was over 14 years ago.
07:57:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure if I have a good example for that. I've reintroduced bugs to my own code to be able to easily compare the outputs to see if other changes have broken something. And I've worked around bugs in third-party software a lot of times. But I don't think I deliberately tried to add an interesting bug to my code to reproduce a bug in a third-party code. Copied typos in names to match
07:57:54 <b_jonas> identifiers or filenames, sure, but not for interesting logic bugs.
08:00:17 <shachaf> Man, everything I hear about the new Apple CPUs sounds unreasonably good.
08:07:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Do they have their own instruction set or implement an existing instruction set?
08:10:13 <zzo38> One of my project is working on bug for bug compatibility, by testing various strange things in the original software to see what happens, and then implementing the program to do the same thing. (This also means that the new program can also serve as documentation for the original program too, I suppose, although that isn't quite the intention.) Some people who write emulators have probably done similar things too.
08:14:58 <zzo38> There is thing also when changing existing programs though, to try to maintain compatibility (such as the "cannot #PUT on bottom row" bug in ZZT; some variants maintain that bug, while some variants remove that bug; I have maintained it but added a per-board option in the extended world format which can remove that bug)
08:16:54 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split).
08:16:54 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
08:16:54 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split).
08:16:54 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split).
08:16:54 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split).
08:19:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:22:19 -!- int-e has joined.
08:22:19 -!- ineiros has joined.
08:22:19 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined.
08:22:19 -!- APic has joined.
08:22:19 -!- fungot has joined.
08:56:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:11:56 <zzo38> The documentation for the "goto" statement in Hero Mesh says "Very structured, very object oriented. If you don't like it, don't use it." However, it is needed for any kind of loops (except ForEachObjAt loops); there is no "while" command.
09:17:24 <Taneb> Perhaps you could use a macro library or similar that implements while loops in terms of goto, and not use goto directly?
09:17:42 <Taneb> I'm not familiar with Hero Mesh
09:19:25 <zzo38> Hero Mesh doesn't have macros. (However, Free Hero Mesh does have macros, and it also has while loops)
09:20:28 <zzo38> (Although, anything converted from Hero Mesh will not use the macros or while loops, of course.)
09:45:29 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:17:15 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:24:57 -!- TheLie has joined.
11:00:01 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:03:53 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:07:28 <nakilon> I woke up and realised that
12:07:57 <nakilon> to check if the value is zero you don't have to check if it's positive, negate and then check again
12:08:24 <nakilon> you can square it and then check
12:08:38 -!- FastestCoderOnEa has joined.
12:09:48 <FastestCoderOnEa> Is this the correct place to ask for feedback on new esolang ideas?
12:10:22 <rain1> you can use the wiki too to write it up
12:11:00 <FastestCoderOnEa> I think about creating a pointer based language, where the syntax would look like this.
12:11:12 <FastestCoderOnEa> # average ####### l 0 0 ## ↑ len ##↺ ↑ ↑ <= ## ↑ ↑ at ## ↑ ↑ += ##\ ↑ ↑ / #################
12:11:27 <FastestCoderOnEa> # average ####### l 0 0 ## ↑ len ##↺ ↑ ↑ <= ## ↑ ↑ at ## ↑ ↑ += ##\ ↑ ↑ / #################
12:14:15 <FastestCoderOnEa> Ok thanks, here it is https://privatebin.net/?4751c7dd2a0ea64d#8fyAkGLhRBqxenXHVv2DU1FsHms65PKgmicjjXZBawxN
12:15:01 <FastestCoderOnEa> That is a function to calculate the average of a list. Do you think this is a good idea for an esolang, if i work on expanding the functionality?
12:16:21 -!- adu has joined.
12:27:36 <FastestCoderOnEa> The # box is a function and arrows are used to reference a value, then it would have different High Order Functions like ↺ loop and \ change scope.
12:34:19 -!- delta23 has joined.
12:36:05 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:46:06 -!- FastestCoderOnEa has left.
13:03:42 <nakilon> and with "j" the zero check is even simplier: :/jvv
13:12:38 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:15:05 -!- delta23 has joined.
13:39:20 <esowiki> [[$ $]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79423&oldid=79422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-71) /* Constants */ Remove empty rows
14:23:37 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:28:06 <nakilon> fizzie I wanna add your Befunge solution to README to show that non-golfed code in both languages have about the same size -- 1) may I do it? 2) may I credit your github username?
14:41:25 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:43:17 -!- LKoen has joined.
14:53:54 <nakilon> I wonder if you didn't check that you don't sum two numbers from the same index too
14:56:50 -!- user24 has joined.
15:18:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
15:20:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:35:07 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:35:44 -!- delta23 has joined.
16:13:49 <rain1> baba is you have a level editor now
16:17:26 <int-e> Right, I even deleted my savegame so that I wouldn't go back.
16:20:20 <rain1> levels can be shared
16:21:07 <int-e> lalala I'm not listening
16:22:41 -!- MDude has joined.
16:28:12 <delta23> 5 star programmer challenge should be a thing
16:31:44 <nakilon> (never mind about the "check that you don't sum two numbers from the same index")
16:33:16 <Taneb> I never managed to finish baba is you :(
16:33:39 <Taneb> I did manage to do a puzzle I was struggling with last week
16:35:36 <int-e> baba did get impressively complicated
16:36:53 <int-e> Though as I recall it, it did a good job of introducing the mechanics and tricks you need.
16:37:39 <kmc> i like that game
16:39:14 <Taneb> int-e: I think I'm just bad at puzzles
16:41:36 <int-e> The way I do it it's a weird process of exploring (looking at the outcome of certain moves, trying to figure out how objects interact, because I can't visualize everything) and trying to find attractive intermediate goals
16:42:45 <rain1> some levels were very intersting in that i could not solve them at all and they only had a couple things going on and i thought i had explored all options
16:42:56 <rain1> i remember the lava and ice level being like that
16:43:04 <arseniiv> <int-e> Right, I even deleted my savegame so that I wouldn't go back. => ow
16:44:42 <arseniiv> <rain1> baba is you have a level editor now => am I guessing right it requires you to solve all the levels first? Or to get a specific amount of those flowery flowers?
16:46:00 <arseniiv> <rain1> some levels were very intersting in that i could not solve them at all and they only had a couple things going on and i thought i had explored all options => yep. I remember int-e trying to explain me how to solve one without spoiling it
16:47:53 <arseniiv> there was one level in Snakebird which I solved on PC but then couldn’t solve on the phone for tens of tries, and then suddenly I saw what I was missing again. And by now I probably won’t remember that move if I’ll retry again
16:48:02 <int-e> https://babaiswiki.fandom.com/wiki/Level_Editor says it has to be enabled manually
16:48:41 <int-e> Snakebird ... I was so happy when I finished that one.
16:49:30 <arseniiv> oh! by the way have somebody seen Jelly no puzzle by qrostar (IIRC)? I think there should be a clone of it, the ideas are pretty interesting
16:51:11 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe I'll declare Infinifactory finished without even trying the last level set. I can't see myself ever sit down and try it seriously.
16:51:22 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:54:54 <int-e> (I've talked about this before... There's dozens of levels in Infinifactory that I actually found fun, but the last set just seems to be about making things *big*. And that's not really interesting to me, it's just tedious and complicated.
16:56:07 <arseniiv> found a clone playable in a browser: https://jackkutilek.com/puzzlescript/jelly-no-puzzle.html
16:56:22 <arseniiv> but having your own custom levels is the goal
16:57:14 <int-e> One of the levels has you put pieces on a kind of PCB. So the way the game works, you have to weld them onto the board. But you can only weld stuff together from the side. So what I think you'll have to do is take two boards, cut them into complementary strips, attach the parts to the strips, and then reassemble the strips to a complete board
16:57:50 <int-e> and the board is maybe 15 blocks in both dimensions. (1 block in the third).
16:58:41 <int-e> ("cutting" is lossy, you have to destroy a whole row of blocks)
16:59:03 <int-e> (so that why you'll need two boards to make one)
16:59:10 <int-e> anyway, uninstalled.
17:11:45 <arseniiv> in Opus Magnum there is a level where you need to upgrade lead atoms five times to make gold, but you need to upgrade them in two ways simultaneously, both using mercury and no mercury, as that level doesn’t provide you with the atom recycle bin thing (of course, otherwise it will be very simple to solve). That makes a grandiose machinery which is very unwieldy to optimize or even lay out in the first place. But there are levels far more tedious to s
17:14:30 <int-e> haven't touched it, haven't heard anything about it that's remarkable either, other than being designed as an embedded language that can easily be extended
17:14:50 <int-e> --> no opinion, really
17:16:24 <arseniiv> I used to know it with its basic library almost entirely, once, though I barely wrote in it at all, just a bit of playing in repl
17:19:01 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
17:24:41 -!- rain1 has joined.
17:34:46 <nakilon> adventofcode day 1 part 2 is computationally hard; takes my interpreter 6 seconds for a line
17:36:06 <nakilon> pyramid's volume is cube's volume / 6, right? then it will take 6 * 2 * 200 / 6 = 400 seconds to run through all the data
17:36:46 <nakilon> not that I want to implement sort() for day 1 part 2 _--
17:50:38 <fizzie> nakilon: 1) yes 2) yes NaN) yeah, I thought it's not going to have 2020/2 on the list anyway
17:53:14 <nakilon> I've got fish in my code: >$$$>
17:53:33 -!- TheLie has joined.
17:57:52 <nakilon> fizzie since I store the array on stack to iterate the first index I just pop the top and the first half of the sum is always the top value
17:58:19 <nakilon> then I start the second index from 2 so it does does not collide
17:58:39 <nakilon> so the fix is trivial, does not need any conditionals
18:00:53 <fizzie> The fix for the Befunge-98 solution is equally trivial, just an extra 1- to the index kept on stack right before the inner loop. I just didn't want to add "extra" characters.
18:02:38 <nakilon> that fish is actually the piece of code that pops the top
18:09:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:43:25 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:48:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
19:15:50 <nakilon> hmmm, stack being of Rational type gives me an ability to divide every number pushed to it by 2020, so instead of checking if sum is 2020 I can check if sum is 1, that will be simpler
19:26:48 -!- rain1 has joined.
19:59:34 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
20:21:13 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:39:46 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79424 * Someone else * (+2384) Created page
20:41:04 -!- imode has joined.
21:55:42 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
22:03:43 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: Well, would you look at the time. I've almost missed my ambiguous, non-existent appointment that I have scheduled just when I start to lose interest in my current conversation.).
22:04:03 -!- someone_else98 has joined.
22:05:46 -!- someone_else98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:12:05 -!- grumble has joined.
22:19:20 -!- esolang has joined.
22:19:29 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:38:15 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:39:51 <fizzie> nakilon: You might be interested, did part 2 of day 1 in Befunge-98 as well, though it's a bit of a cheat: http://ix.io/2I57
23:24:15 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
23:29:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:31:48 <fizzie> And for the same low price of none, here's also a stack-only day 2 part 1, but I really need a better Befunge development environment, debugging these is far too slow: http://ix.io/2I5r
23:43:45 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:46:50 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:54:22 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
00:26:27 -!- MDude has joined.
01:10:47 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:11:35 -!- atslash has joined.
01:15:10 -!- imode has joined.
01:26:20 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
01:38:40 -!- MDude has joined.
01:43:15 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:48:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:50:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
01:57:42 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:58:36 -!- MDude has joined.
02:16:11 <esowiki> [[C-trice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79425&oldid=78911 * RocketRace * (-1596) Replaced content with "Candidate for deletion"
03:56:29 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79426&oldid=74877 * Unl256 * (+96) /* List of OISCs */
04:18:17 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:21:24 -!- adu has joined.
04:52:37 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:54:16 -!- rodgort has joined.
04:55:22 -!- haavard has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:56:33 -!- haavard has joined.
05:08:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
05:09:45 -!- FireFly has joined.
05:47:33 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:37:08 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
06:58:54 <int-e> unsurprisingly, today's task doesn't look very twisty
07:00:08 <int-e> and yesterday's is not nearly as twisted as it might have been
07:14:09 <int-e> actually today is the first time I spent effort on optimising the code after getting both stars
07:14:30 <int-e> I was not happy with my code taking more than a minute for the second part.
08:12:12 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:35:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:46:19 <Taneb> int-e: mine still takes over 30 seconds and I'm not happy with that
08:47:59 <int-e> Taneb: I bit the bullet and used ST and unboxed arrays.
08:48:27 <int-e> well, array, singular.
08:49:12 <Taneb> I'm just using IntMap but I'm surprised there's that much of a speedup from arrays
08:50:08 <int-e> well you do get millions of entries, so a tree of depth 20 or so, and traversing that is a lot of random memory accesses
08:53:08 <int-e> oh and GC cost may be nontrivial too... hmm.
08:55:25 <int-e> "Productivity 49.4% of total user, 49.3% of total elapsed"
08:56:34 <int-e> Just passing +RTS -A2G is a nice 150% speedup
08:56:52 <int-e> bringing productivity up to 85%.
09:00:06 <int-e> But the array version has 99.5% productivity (unsurprisingly; the big array isn't scanned and the rest of the heap is really small)
09:04:39 <int-e> Taneb: what happened to yesterday's second star?
09:05:02 <int-e> (looking at the #haskell list)
09:06:32 <Taneb> int-e: critical motivation error
09:09:21 <int-e> it just looks out of place among all the gold :)
09:09:31 <Taneb> I'll get round to it
09:10:25 <Taneb> (Seeing as I've done some of the 2015 tasks this month, it may be a while)
09:38:35 -!- rain1 has joined.
10:06:04 -!- Arcorann has joined.
10:20:46 -!- delta23 has joined.
10:49:56 <shachaf> int-e: I'm unsure what to do at this island that has two tall trees and two rocks.
10:50:31 <int-e> shachaf: if you make a screenshot I might have an idea
10:50:57 <shachaf> Ah, I was trying to be deliberately vague. But I guess I can do that.
10:51:24 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-15-025059_3840x2160.png
10:51:30 <shachaf> Not that I've been stuck here for that long or anything.
10:54:01 <int-e> Yeah I know what you can do there and it doesn't seem terribly difficult.
11:00:57 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving).
11:05:04 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:06:23 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, wow, I can't believe I missed that.
11:06:38 <shachaf> Especially since it was the theme of this whole area.
11:07:01 <shachaf> I spent a little time trying to get to the rock but most of the time I was thinking I needed to get to the (barely visible) island in the southeast.
11:08:48 <shachaf> Oh, and it just brought me here.
11:14:26 <int-e> sometimes all it needs is a small leap of faith
11:20:54 <esowiki> [[Category:Graphical Output]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79427 * Sinthorion * (+69) Created page with "Languages with primarily graphical IO (to screen or to an image file)"
11:21:39 <esowiki> [[PixelCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79428&oldid=78088 * Sinthorion * (+114) categories
11:22:03 <esowiki> [[Graphical Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79429&oldid=50990 * Sinthorion * (+30) category
11:26:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:27:14 <esowiki> [[Image]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79430&oldid=62030 * Razetime * (+30)
11:28:36 <esowiki> [[Drawfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79431&oldid=47307 * Razetime * (-5)
11:30:45 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
11:30:53 <esowiki> [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79432&oldid=76648 * Razetime * (+30)
11:31:37 <esowiki> [[Rebmu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79433&oldid=68159 * Razetime * (+30)
11:34:01 <esowiki> [[Rebmu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79434&oldid=79433 * Razetime * (+0)
11:39:47 <int-e> did we just get another new category without discussion :-(
11:41:56 <int-e> though the current state spells out "gimp" in the middle which is a funny accident https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Graphical_Output (may need to be logged in to see the latest version)
11:42:03 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
11:45:22 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:13:43 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
12:14:07 -!- sftp has joined.
12:32:49 <nakilon> 02:31:48 <fizzie> And for the same low price of none, here's also a stack-only day 2 part 1
12:36:35 <nakilon> my day 1 part 2 is https://dpaste.org/0rDS/slim
12:42:51 <nakilon> somehow your part 2 is different from part 1 only by a little
12:43:31 <nakilon> but it has to be a whole one more loop around
12:54:26 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:02:37 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79435&oldid=78269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Turing-Completeness */ rm redirect
13:04:10 <fizzie> What it does is essentially: for i { for j { k = 2020 - (i+j); if exists[k]: return i*j*k } }
13:06:07 <fizzie> It uses one of the playfield rows as a bitmap, basically. The input-reading loop collects all the input numbers to consecutive cells of row f as with part 1, but for every number i, it also sets the i'th column of row e to 0 for that "check if we have this number" test.
13:07:34 <nakilon> oh cool, you kind of use the program space for implicit sorting
13:08:29 <esowiki> [[Rebmu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79436&oldid=79434 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) External link
13:08:31 <nakilon> can't be done in rasel since it currently isn't supposed for random writing
13:08:56 <fizzie> Yeah, that's why I said "it's a bit of a cheat".
13:09:21 <int-e> ultimate bucket sort
13:09:48 <fizzie> I did part 2 of day 2 as well, but had to use one cell on the playfield for it: http://ix.io/2I9P
13:10:20 <nakilon> I went sleep yesterday on doing day 2 part 2, have to finish it yet
13:10:43 <nakilon> unlike day 1 the part 2 here is changing the program a lot
13:10:57 <fizzie> A rot or a 2swap/2dup would certainly make stack-only Befunge solutions much more plausible.
13:11:48 <fizzie> Yeah, [a b c] -> [b c a]. Or the other way around, I can never remember.
13:12:19 <fizzie> It's a Forth term. 2swap and 2dup do [a b c d] -> [c d a b] and [a b] -> [a b a b] respectively.
13:12:21 <nakilon> yeah, each step deeper is a huge help
13:12:36 <nakilon> the number is problems become easily solvable grows exponentially
13:14:11 <fizzie> The "algorithms" (if you can call them that) in my Befunge solutions are: for part 1, it just reads characters and compares them to the reference character, possibly incrementing a count stored below the reference. After it's done, it compares the result to the low/high bounds. The input transforms the (low, high) pair to (high-low+1, low) to make it possible with just swap.
13:17:38 <fizzie> And for part 2 it just uses two read-and-discard loops to skip over characters before the first important one, and between the first and second ones, and then calculates essentially (a == c) + (b == c) == 1. But I had to p/g the c value. :/
13:19:55 <fizzie> int-e: The problem with modern computers are, they're just too fast. I did the "just play the game" solution for part 1, fully assuming they'd ask for some ridiculously large number for part 2 that'd need some clever trick, but then they asked for a relatively modest number, which comes out of the simple solution in less than two seconds. So now I'm not motivated to think about shortcuts.
13:21:43 <nakilon> to see if X is within A and B I stored it like A B B X, then subtract-compare the last two, then restore X by subtracting the (B-X) from B, then compare with A
13:25:10 <fizzie> Hmm, makes sense. What I did was (modulo some +1s) to store B-A A X, turn it into B-A X-A, then do the comparisons X-A > 0 (aka X > A) and X-A < B-A (aka X < B).
13:31:53 <int-e> fizzie: well as indicated earlier, the Data.Map based Haskell solution made me bite my nails for a minute
13:33:25 <int-e> I also followed my usual pattern of producing a list of numbers and then taking the N-th element. Turns out that list alone accounted for half of the time.
13:33:42 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79437&oldid=79424 * Someone else * (+828)
13:35:39 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79438&oldid=79437 * Someone else * (+33)
13:50:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:51:04 -!- LKoen has joined.
13:52:16 <fizzie> FWIW, here's also a stack-only day 2 part 2, with just a little code duplication (to maintain state in the IP rather than on the stack): http://ix.io/2Ia7
13:53:36 <fizzie> Probably that could be fixed too, with some similar system for restoring the value, just don't have time now.
14:01:15 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79439&oldid=79438 * Someone else * (+1266) Added examples
14:01:37 <fizzie> Eh, actually, it's much simpler than that, I can just http://ix.io/2Iab -- though that's got a larger bounding box after all. Not sure what's better.
14:04:28 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79440&oldid=79439 * Someone else * (+9)
14:19:01 -!- adu has joined.
14:21:42 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:48:57 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:54:19 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79441&oldid=79440 * Someone else * (+1268) Added examples
14:55:21 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79442&oldid=79441 * Someone else * (+6) Formatting
14:56:52 -!- rain1 has joined.
15:15:36 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
15:15:55 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
15:15:59 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
15:17:14 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79443&oldid=79442 * Someone else * (-680)
15:28:54 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:47:56 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79444&oldid=79443 * Someone else * (+7)
16:53:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
16:58:45 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
17:03:22 -!- sprocklem has joined.
17:05:21 -!- adu has joined.
17:05:26 -!- TheLie has joined.
17:45:54 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
17:56:45 -!- MDude has joined.
18:27:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:57:11 <b_jonas> fungot, is "four-legged feline" a tautology?
18:57:11 <fungot> b_jonas: the planned liberalization of telecommunications on 1 january 2001, brought a case before the appeal court of the hague convention.
19:02:40 <shachaf> Why would it be a tautology?
19:45:00 -!- pr0gr3sR has joined.
19:45:30 -!- imode has joined.
19:51:43 -!- FreeFull has joined.
19:57:40 <b_jonas> I think all felines have four legs. even tigers, who can swim well, have four legs, not fins, just like crocodiles. catfish aren't actually related that closely, they just have one of these unfortunate aristotelian names like seahorses.
20:13:01 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:13:24 <shachaf> I've seen some videos of three-legged and two-legged cats.
20:37:34 <nakilon> there was a song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSIrfHNJCI
20:38:16 <nakilon> my father often quoted this line but I never knew where it's from, just googled, the last result on the first google's page
20:38:33 <nakilon> "and behind it there is a tail"
20:55:25 -!- bitkiller has joined.
20:55:38 -!- bitkiller has left.
21:19:19 -!- Apache has joined.
21:19:26 <Apache> https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401
21:34:45 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:36:57 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
21:45:49 -!- jess has joined.
21:49:36 -!- Apache has quit (K-Lined).
21:50:38 <esowiki> [[AmBored]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79445&oldid=78301 * Tetrapyronia * (+30) ~ c ~ a ~ t ~
21:52:10 -!- Apache has joined.
21:54:00 -!- Apache has quit (K-Lined).
21:54:49 -!- Apache has joined.
21:56:18 -!- Apache has quit (K-Lined).
22:07:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
23:08:30 <nakilon> > (a == c) + (b == c) == 1. But I had to p/g the c value. :/
23:08:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:57: error: <hint>:1:57: error: parse error on input ‘:/’
23:08:40 <nakilon> yeah I've got a problem too
23:10:01 <nakilon> I have to store 1. the second skip length 2. the char 3. and the result of the first comparison
23:11:00 <nakilon> and I can't just push the (2) behind (1), I needed it here on top because I duped it for the first comparison
23:12:12 <nakilon> fizzie so you just made copypaste for two branches?
23:12:31 <fizzie> That's the first non-g/p solution I did, yes.
23:15:05 <nakilon> I have a feeling that there is a solution
23:15:42 <fizzie> The other one I have just does a branch followed by either \0\ or \1\ to basically go from stack [skip char result] to [result char skip].
23:16:34 <fizzie> Er, I don't think that was quite right.
23:19:18 <fizzie> Right, from [skip char result] to [char result skip], is what I was supposed to say. By temporarily discarding the result, since the only thing that matters is whether it was 0 or not, so that state can be kept by which branch it's in while it swaps skip and char.
23:20:26 -!- TheLie has joined.
23:21:37 <fizzie> So it's quite similar except that instead of duplicating the whole "discard the middle bit" code it only duplicates the "swap the order of (1) and (2) and then put (3) back" code, to use your numbers.
23:32:50 <nakilon> if only there was a way for first char check part to has an effect on the second part so it reversed its mind
23:35:02 <nakilon> maybe read both chars, compare them with each other and only then compare to the X?
23:35:54 <nakilon> meh, won't work, still need plenty of space
23:43:29 -!- mla has joined.
00:01:06 <nakilon> there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions
00:03:30 <nakilon> for example, measuring path length
00:04:27 <nakilon> would make for RASEL if I had another life to spare
00:05:03 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:14:45 <fizzie> Back when I used to golf Befunge with friends, bounding box area was our standard metric.
00:15:06 <fizzie> There's just something very pleasing about a compact square of Befunge code with no appreciable gaps.
00:15:59 <fizzie> (I've not written anything large that I'd've applied that style to, though.)
00:22:47 <nakilon> that's actually an interesting aspect I didn't think about earlier -- the branch we are on has a 1 bit of information in itself
00:22:50 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:23:51 <nakilon> it can be short but useful to get deeper into stack
00:25:13 <nakilon> fizzie I use as a metric a bytesize of the file when you save it and editor trims trailing spaces
00:26:14 <nakilon> you could use the metric of width+height to promote more squared solutions )
00:26:43 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8).
00:26:48 <fizzie> Or the circumference, for round.
00:27:35 <fizzie> Well, some approximation of length of convex hull or whatever.
00:34:11 -!- Melvar has joined.
00:35:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79446&oldid=76245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Input/output capabilities */ Was this discussed?
00:41:45 -!- zeroed has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:45:33 <fizzie> Hmm. I was hoping day 5 part 1 would've turned out to be real short, but http://ix.io/2Ier is what I got for it.
00:51:09 <fizzie> Heh, at least I can use the same bucket sort for part 2: http://ix.io/2Iet -- also moderately happy that only took 5 minutes, and worked the first try. Somehow it's so easy to make mistakes with Befunge code.
00:51:39 <fizzie> Whoops, it's even got some dead code left over from part 1. :)
00:52:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: wouldn't bounding box area usually end up with a very narrow rectangle?
00:53:17 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:53:47 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe in an actual competitive setting it might.
00:54:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: especially in variants of befunge that have long jumps
00:54:58 <b_jonas> I admit when we wrote obfuscated code in perl, a lot of them ended up as compact rectangles, but it's sort of an uninspired formatting
00:55:35 <b_jonas> so much that I gave two variants in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 , and I think the one that's not an unformatted blob is nicer
00:55:47 <b_jonas> but then befunge is different, because of its 2d control flow
01:15:30 <nakilon> oh finally I made day 2 part 2
01:16:26 <nakilon> fizzie https://dpaste.org/Crmx/slim
01:17:11 <nakilon> it's basically Befunge-like solution, those "j" are accepting just 1 and 0 and so similar to _ and |
01:17:50 <nakilon> almost in the middle there is branching that does a little of action and storing the 0 or 1
01:18:17 <nakilon> and at the end another branch uses that saved bit to chose the branch
01:18:58 <nakilon> I mean and at the end that bit is reused to branch again
01:20:59 <nakilon> *Befunge-like and no random access
01:25:34 <nakilon> "j" pointing from opposite sides are effectively the same as XORing the memorized bit
01:28:28 <nakilon> hmmmm, what if I make "?" not "go forward or reverse" but "go 1 cell forward or 2"?..
01:29:19 <nakilon> would look the same as I do with ":/j" to test for zero
01:46:57 -!- adminv has joined.
01:50:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:50:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:51:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:52:34 -!- FreeFull has quit.
02:54:45 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:35:23 <nakilon> oh, fizzie, after I made it in two lines like you did https://dpaste.org/Qpzh/slim
03:35:38 <nakilon> I see that you did the same thing about storing 0 and 1 in two branches I guess
03:36:14 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8).
03:37:11 <nakilon> it's almost identical, lol
05:51:50 <int-e> So, first interesting AoC day today?
05:52:23 <HackEso> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
05:52:56 * int-e thwacks shachaf with a 5.5' by 13 kg non-regulation mapole.
05:57:21 -!- arseniiv has joined.
07:31:13 -!- Melvar has joined.
07:46:43 -!- user24 has joined.
07:57:08 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:02:00 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Bats are people too!).
08:05:17 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
08:05:53 <zzo38> Implementing the Move() function in Free Hero Mesh would be more complicated to do. Use what it says in the Hero Mesh documentation as the basic hypothesis. Figure out an experiment to distinguish it from other cases. Revise the hypothesis and make up a new experiment, etc. Some things in the Hero Mesh documentation are incomplete or unclear anyways, and I have already figured out some things difference from what it says.
08:09:54 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:17:36 -!- rain1 has joined.
08:26:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:20:36 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:21:05 -!- arseniiv has joined.
09:23:02 -!- TheLie has joined.
09:38:38 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:17:33 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
11:19:38 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
11:50:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:51:16 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:13:49 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79447&oldid=77971 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0)
12:14:43 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79448&oldid=79447 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+9)
12:15:40 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:17:02 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79449&oldid=79448 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+3)
12:17:34 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79450&oldid=79449 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+14)
12:17:47 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the month is solarwinds123. (too late, I know) )
12:20:04 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79451&oldid=78389 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+44)
12:33:57 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:43:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wrongpassword1 * New user account
12:48:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79452&oldid=79378 * Wrongpassword1 * (+165)
12:48:47 <esowiki> [[User:Wrongpassword1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79453 * Wrongpassword1 * (+114) Created page with "{{retired}} This was a test. How do I delete an account on this wiki?? My pw is the username with a 2 at the end."
12:49:58 -!- theFoxe has joined.
13:00:06 -!- rain1 has joined.
13:13:32 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79454&oldid=79451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Wikipedia link
13:15:05 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79455&oldid=79450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) Cat, seeAlso
13:26:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Wrongpassword1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+813) /* Account deletion appears to be impossible */ new section
13:48:43 -!- b_jonas has joined.
14:01:09 <b_jonas> hey look, they stopped including the normal sized frame for the default mobile phone SIM card package. the one I bought two years ago still had one. this one only has mini, micro, and Apple sizes (called standard, micro, and nano on the packaging)
14:04:10 <b_jonas> I guess I should call the normal one "credit card size"
14:06:07 <aaaaaa> b_jonas: we are old enough to remember these SIMs
14:06:35 <aaaaaa> But I bought my first mobile in 2000, already has "mini-SIM"
14:09:44 <aaaaaa> I even remeber the times when you had a phonebook in SIM-card
14:16:38 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> A rot or a 2swap/2dup would certainly make stack-only Befunge solutions much more plausible." => even with that, Rasel would still have the same problem: you can't erase entries from the stack if there are more than a few entries above it that you have to preserve, unless you encode a list to a bigum, which gets ugly and may be hard. so if you want to, say, merge two lists or reverse or sort a
14:16:44 <b_jonas> list, you can do it fast because of random reads but you have to keep the inputs forever, you can't discard old data.
14:17:28 <b_jonas> it's sort of like Underload without !
14:17:34 -!- delta23 has joined.
14:17:42 <b_jonas> only not quite that restricted
14:17:59 -!- theFoxe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:24:10 <nakilon> I don't even get the point why to change the SIM card size at all
14:29:56 <esowiki> [[Rasel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79457 * B jonas * (+856) Created page with "'''RASEL (Random Access Stack Esoteric Language)''' is a [[fungeoid]] esoteric programming language. RASEL code is layed out as a planar array of instructions, with each inst..."
14:32:17 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
14:33:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: changing from credit-card sized to mini makes sense, because the credit-card sized card wouldn't fit properly into current phones, at least not without it making the phone thicker. changing from mini to micro might perhaps make sense, it helps you make thin phones with two sim card slots and one SD card slots, popular and useful in Europe these days, although there do exist phones with two mini
14:33:20 <b_jonas> sized SIM card slots. I don't understand the Apple size, but Apple has its own third incompatible standards of a lot of things when two other choices are already available.
14:36:04 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions" => there are some golf sites that accept many languages, including Code Golf Stack Exchange, you can try to use RASEL for newly posted problems there.
15:01:49 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
15:06:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:08:20 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:08:38 -!- delta23 has joined.
15:18:52 <nakilon> wtf, new cards are of the same thicknaess
15:34:14 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
15:36:39 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:39:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, the Apple format is thinner
15:40:39 -!- VaMpIrU has joined.
15:40:41 * VaMpIrU Earn your BitCoin Now! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401
15:40:51 -!- VaMpIrU has left.
15:42:39 <b_jonas> which, by the way, means either that the tolerances in the curved pins in the phone are supposed to be such that the difference in thickness doesn't matter and Apple changed it for no good reason, or that Apple has deliberately made all SIM cards in normal phones work worse because their center have to be made thinner and so it's easier to get a contact error in a phone that expects a mini or micro SIM
15:44:23 <b_jonas> (the truth is somewhere in between those)
15:51:55 <fizzie> One sorta-point about the nano being thinner is that you can make a more robust nano-to-micro or nano-to-mini adapter, because it can have something behind the card.
15:52:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: no it can't, because the difference is too thin for you to put anything there
15:52:44 <fizzie> That's what ETSI says is the reason, and I've seen adapters for it.
15:52:54 <b_jonas> what you have between plus the gap that will be between the back and the Apple sized card because of imperfections together will be too thick
15:53:01 <b_jonas> there are such adapters? hmm
15:53:12 <fizzie> https://docbox.etsi.org/workshop/2012/201201_SECURITYWORKSHOP/3_INTERNATIONAL_STANDARDIZATION/UICC_ETSISCP_Vedder.pdf "Thinner to allow adapters so that the 4FF can be 'clicked' into adapters for use as a 3FF SIM giving a kind of backward usability".
15:53:22 <fizzie> (4FF = nano, 3FF = micro.)
15:53:27 <fizzie> Yes, there definitely are adapters.
15:54:11 <b_jonas> I mean adapters with a back, not just adapters around the four edges in the plane
15:55:06 <fizzie> Yes, I'm pretty sure I've seen an adapter with a thin plate supporting the card.
15:55:11 <b_jonas> btw in 2018 I was using a very old SIM card, one that was only in mini size without an adapter, so I had to get a new one (for free) when I bought a new phone
15:55:13 <fizzie> Which really just makes it easier to insert.
15:55:34 <fizzie> (Without the card falling off, I mean.)
15:55:39 <b_jonas> a new phone with mini slot that is
15:55:45 <b_jonas> a new phone with micro slot
15:56:51 <fizzie> I think all the current phones of this household are now 4FF, but only for the last few months.
16:13:58 -!- thefoxe has joined.
16:30:12 <arseniiv> int-e: do you know where lambdabot is?
16:31:07 <arseniiv> yep doesn’t respond in PM and here too
16:31:33 <int-e> it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm.
16:32:27 <int-e> I'll kick it in a couple of minutes, let me see if I can get a glimpse of what it's doing first.
16:34:42 <int-e> hmm just sleeping?
16:36:12 -!- lambdabot has quit (Disconnected by services).
16:38:02 <int-e> arseniiv: I have no clue what happened there. I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here so it may have been some semi-open TCP connection thing.
16:39:19 -!- lambdabot has joined.
16:40:15 <int-e> arseniiv: anyway, thanks... I wonder how often this happens
16:44:38 -!- rain1 has joined.
16:48:01 <arseniiv> int-e: for the statistics, I used to ask @messages from it on a daily basis and all was more or less well. But these times I often forget to open an IRC window; though a couple of times on this and other week it responded kindly
16:49:57 <int-e> Hmm. Okay, let's hope it was a rare fluke then.
16:51:19 <int-e> Because I really don't have a clue where to start debugging this.
16:53:23 <int-e> Back when I took over lambdabot it used to disappear for hours at a time until it was manually kicked... the reason for that were semi-open TCP connections; the Freenode server would lose/close the connection, but no RST package was ever received by the server (I infer, never looked at package captures), and lambdabot never sent anything on its own back in those days.
16:53:58 <int-e> Now it's sending regular pings so it recovers from that within minutes, usually.
16:54:20 <int-e> But, apparently, not this time.
17:01:43 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
17:01:50 <arseniiv> unluckily I decided to check on IRC before going to sleep, so gtg bye have a nice afternorninghtevening
17:06:10 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:14:12 -!- ice303 has joined.
17:53:02 -!- TheLie has joined.
17:58:05 <nakilon> the only real effect of smaller SIM card I see is that it's easier to lose
18:01:22 <int-e> these things have become so fiddly
18:02:26 <int-e> I had not heard about the flatter microsims though, somehow
18:05:56 <int-e> But wait, Wikipedia says the 4FF (nano-SIM) are thinner because it's meant to be put into adapters for 2FF (mini-SIM) and 3FF (micro-SIM) formats, rather than as a subversion of the standard.
18:06:11 <fizzie> That's where I got that from, yes.
18:06:26 <int-e> Yeah sorry, I'm bad at catching up on context.
18:06:53 <fizzie> I did follow [25] to check though. ;)
18:09:08 <fizzie> Didn't realize it's (nominally) thinner though. All the recent SIM's I've gotten have been those three-in-one dealies where you pop off the size you need (well, except if you need the 1FF size, but realistically...), wonder if those actually have the middle bit thinner.
18:09:21 <fizzie> Guess 0.1mm isn't exactly that noticeable.
18:10:19 <fizzie> It's all relative, of course.
18:11:53 <int-e> yeah, no clue how big the tolerances of the sim card slots are in practice, which is the real question here.
18:13:25 <nakilon> so the update to SIM card size makes the phone 0.1 mm thinner? who needs that?
18:13:54 <nakilon> it's around 1% of phone's thickness
18:14:50 <int-e> well they've shrunk the other dimensions too which presumably matters more.
18:18:38 <kmc> bring back credit card size SIMs
18:18:54 <fizzie> They do seem to "advertise" sub-millimeter thickness changes in reviews and such though. But yeah, presumably it's the reduction in area that matters more.
18:19:12 <fizzie> I haven't seen a four-in-one SIM. :/
18:20:35 <fizzie> I think I've had [12], [23] and [234], but no other combinations.
18:20:53 <kmc> I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself
18:21:05 <kmc> femto-SIM is just a dust you sprinkle into the headphone jack
18:21:11 <kmc> (except they're getting rid of those too...)
18:21:14 <fizzie> There's that eSIM thing.
18:21:45 <kmc> but that one is permanently soldered, right?
18:21:47 <int-e> ...sprinkle electrons into floating gates...
18:21:57 <fizzie> Yes, physically speaking.
18:22:09 <fizzie> Logically speaking I think you can "change" what's programmed into it?
18:22:09 <int-e> isn't it a flash ROM thingy?
18:23:01 <kmc> but I thought part of the point of SIMs is that they are like smart cards (and share some common ancestor?) and don't let you reprogram them willy-nilly
18:23:26 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know how exactly the eSIM provisioning works.
18:23:38 <fizzie> But you're definitely supposed to be able to change providers.
18:24:49 <fizzie> "The surface mount format provides the same electrical interface as the full size, 2FF, 3FF and 4FF SIM cards, but is soldered to a circuit board as part of the manufacturing process. The eSIM format is commonly designated as MFF2."
18:25:03 <int-e> A SIM has writable memory anyway, I have a hard time imagining that they make a write only part just to keep things complicated. And there's already the immutable IMEI on the phone anyway.
18:25:53 <kmc> I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture
18:25:56 <int-e> But at the same time I can imagine all sorts of deliberate barriers for the purpose of vendor lockins. So who knows.
18:26:10 <fizzie> https://www.hologram.io/blog/clearing-up-the-term-esim didn't really clear it up for me.
18:26:32 <fizzie> But at least there's a size comparison.
18:27:18 <int-e> "eSIM form factor", what the fuck are they talking about?
18:28:31 <fizzie> I think some of my Pixels have eSIM support, but my main operator (Three) doesn't bother with it.
18:28:32 <int-e> (It does make sense though... MFF2 is a standard for SMD devices that act like a SIM card)
18:28:58 <int-e> One link further: https://developer.gemalto.com/documentation/mff2-sim-cards-specs-mim-quad
18:29:21 <int-e> But AIUI, the idea was that it could also be implemented at a much smaller scale, even part of a SoC.
18:29:45 <int-e> And then "eSIM form factor" begins to lose all its meaning.
18:29:47 <fizzie> O2 does, though, so maybe I could get my secondary "I need to have this because apparently international text messages are a mess" SIM card into the same phone as the main one.
18:30:05 -!- kkd has left ("WeeChat 2.9").
18:33:41 <int-e> Anyway, since gemalto is a SIM card manufacturer who wants to stay in business I can understand why they would not even mention alternatives to having a SIM chip on your device for implementing eSIMs.
18:38:06 <nakilon> I believe you can open any modern phone and find space for 10 more SIM cards
18:44:03 <int-e> are you sure... they pack things pretty densely and fill up as much space as they can with the battery
18:44:27 <b_jonas> "<int-e> it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm. <int-e> I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here" => ah great, this reminds me of when I was hosting the bot cbstream.
18:44:35 <nakilon> Tagged v0.0.0. Pushed rasel 0.0.0 to rubygems.org
18:45:16 <b_jonas> the symptoms weren't the same, and I think it's a different bug, but it was just about as annyoing. it just hang without realizing it should do anything, even die from not having a connection to the IRC server.
18:45:19 -!- acedic[m] has joined.
18:45:46 <int-e> nakilon: there are sites doing teardowns of mobile devices, that might change your opinion
18:45:55 <b_jonas> and now fizzie has problems when the logs web service hangs.
18:47:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's what the SIMs that I buy are like, three parts, and the middle part *is* thinner, though you may only notice that if you look at it from the back side, where the front side is the one with the connectors towards the phone.
18:49:40 <b_jonas> "<kmc> I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself" => yes, there was already a version with a different connector, but I think it went out of use
18:50:42 <b_jonas> "<kmc> but that one is permanently soldered, right?" => I dunno, I assume that only happens in small devices. in large enough devices you put a socket under any fiddly thing that you solder with more than two legs.
18:53:20 <b_jonas> "<kmc> I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture" => I don't think that argument works, because credit cards also have to be cheap too, but they're similarly supposed to be not copiable and only the credit card provider should be able to make one.
18:59:04 <nakilon> "Pages about specific languages should be added both to Category:Languages (as above) and to the Language_list"
18:59:28 <nakilon> to split from "joke language list"?
19:00:29 -!- thefoxe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:02:12 <kmc> b_jonas: it's very uncommon to find IC sockets in consumer devices, regardless of size, and most ICs these days use surface-mount packages which don't really lend themselves to sockets
19:03:30 <kmc> even setting aside size constraints (which are certainly present on a smartphone) a socket adds expense, both in terms of the part itself and the extra time/effort during assembly
19:04:21 <kmc> surface mount ICs can be placed ridiculously fast by machines and then reflow-soldered all at once
19:06:00 <kmc> most consumer devices are not meant to be repaired at the level of individual chips, maybe a whole board / subassembly but more likely you throw out the whole thing if it breaks
19:06:13 <kmc> and we're well past the point of physically swapping out ROM ICs as a way of updating firmware
19:10:07 <b_jonas> although I admit that credit cards, especially embossed ones, may in fact be much more expensive to manufacture than SIM cards, and I have no idea about their manufacturing costs, because banks and mobile phone service providers give them to you only in conjunction with a service, so they can charge you much more than it costs to make, or much less to incentivize people to always report stolen credit
19:11:08 <Hooloovo0> SIM cards in bulk can be pretty cheap
19:11:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: ah yes, I should add it to [[Language list]]. and I don't know why, there's no point to maintain both, it's just going by momentum and the two are probably significantly desynced by now.
19:11:37 <Hooloovo0> I know a couple people who used them for shadytel stuff at toorcamp - bring a burner phone and you have phone service for the weekend
19:12:08 <Hooloovo0> well, duration of the con, which is >weekend
19:12:30 <b_jonas> nakilon: while we're there, is this language called RASEL or Rasel? I suspect it's RASEL and I just created the page with the wrong name.
19:12:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79458&oldid=79413 * B jonas * (+12)
19:13:14 <b_jonas> kmc: true about consumer device repair
19:13:30 <nakilon> b_jonas I was about to create pages for the language and for myself
19:13:32 <Hooloovo0> kmc, there's still a lot of devices that have easily swappable ROMs, but they're SPI/i2c flash
19:13:41 <nakilon> I'm registering an account, solving befunge captcha, lol
19:13:49 <kmc> what kind of devices?
19:13:50 <nakilon> I've just read all the rules from Help page
19:14:21 <Hooloovo0> calculators, other small embedded stuff
19:14:24 <b_jonas> nakilon: ok, but I already created a stub at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel . If it's called RASEL then I'll ask the wiki guys to rename it.
19:14:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nakilon * New user account
19:14:40 <b_jonas> hmm, in fact I might be able to rename it myself.
19:14:48 <Hooloovo0> maybe less so now than 5 years ago, but an eeprom programmer is still a very useful tool
19:14:49 <kmc> what's the point of doing that instead of having a header or test points to reprogram the chip in situ?
19:15:21 <nakilon> lol, I used my own befunge interpreter -- feels like I've cracked my first captcha
19:15:36 <Hooloovo0> multi-chip-modules are expensive, so if you can have one chip for CPU/RAM/other logic and another for flash, it's cheaper in the long run
19:15:49 <nakilon> b_jonas yeah should be all caps
19:16:00 <Hooloovo0> (weird stuff often doesn't support internal flash. which is also changing)
19:16:03 <b_jonas> ok, I'll move it to [[RASEL]]
19:16:08 <kmc> i don't see what that has to do with using a socket or not
19:16:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * B jonas * moved [[Rasel]] to [[RASEL]]: I created with wrong name, sorry
19:16:22 <kmc> you can have an external SPI flash chip without socketing it
19:16:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79461&oldid=79458 * B jonas * (+0)
19:18:02 <nakilon> Esolang email confirmation email got spammed by gmail
19:18:05 -!- harha_ has joined.
19:21:03 <Hooloovo0> oh, not socketed, but at least replaceable by the end-user
19:27:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79462&oldid=79452 * Nakilon * (+167) machine asked me to prove I'm human
19:30:00 <b_jonas> what I don't understand is why SIM cards still have to stay in the phone these days. it perhaps made sense in the 90s, and we have to make SIM cards and phones compatible with the old protocol for a while. but we could phase them to where you can insert the SIM card to a phone once, the SIM card generates a cryptographically signed statement that you put this SIM card to this phone, with a serial number
19:30:01 <nakilon> b_jonas the wiki says there are User pages and Profile pages
19:30:06 <b_jonas> that increases for the same SIM card, then the phone just sends that data to the provider, and the provider only accepts the statement with the latest serial number that they've seen for each SIM card. then you could have just one SIM slot even in dual-SIM phones, or a SIM slot that overlaps with the memory card slot, or have the SIM reader be a cheap external accessory that you don't carry with the
19:30:12 <b_jonas> phone, like the charger, as the phone manufacturer chooses.
19:30:14 <nakilon> I feel like your User page contains what is supposed to be on Profile page
19:31:43 <int-e> but the SIM card is an active device in negotiations with the mobile phone network
19:31:54 <int-e> not just a serial number
19:33:25 <b_jonas> int-e: why does it have to be an active device? I mean, I could understand if it had to negotiate with the network *once*, and you couldn't bind it to a phone without that.
19:33:36 <b_jonas> but why does it have to stay that way?
19:33:40 <int-e> So if you go down that path facing mobile phone providers who like that shit becuse it's convenient for them... you'll likely end up with something resembling eSIM very very closely
19:34:08 <int-e> it is that way because it has always been that way and the parties in power don't want to change it
19:35:25 <b_jonas> so they're sort of like banks, to a lesser degree
19:35:44 <Hooloovo0> oh, phone providers are exactly like banks
19:36:09 <Hooloovo0> also: it's convenient to be able to move my SIM between phones if one breaks
19:36:36 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:36:48 <int-e> Hooloovo0: in a different world that could be as simple as scanning a QR code
19:36:59 <int-e> but we're not living in that fantasy world
19:37:09 <nakilon> I guess I meant not Profiles but People: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People
19:38:06 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure. I feel like a hardware token is easier to manage, in the long run
19:38:21 <int-e> (of course a QR code can be replicated very easily while a SIM card cannot (not easily))
19:42:11 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: yes, I do understand that, especially that SIM cards and memory cards are more resistant to water and shock than the phone or camera around them, that's why I suggested that the SIM card should still exist as a discrete resilient piece of hardware and be rebindable to a different phone by the consumer. int-e: well... I'd sort of prefer if, after I insert my SIM to a malicious phone then to
19:42:17 <b_jonas> another phone, the former phone can't lie that I've reinserted the SIM to it as long as the latter phone has registered to the provider,
19:44:17 <b_jonas> int-e: also I don't want every phone (including cheap ones and home alarms) to be required to have a good enough camera to read a QR code, but perhaps you mean that only as an alternative
19:46:08 <int-e> b_jonas: yes it was supposed to be one of several ways that evolved over time
19:46:47 <int-e> it could've started by requiring users to enter a 30 digit code into their phone the first time they use it.
19:47:13 <b_jonas> right, makes more sense. I don't insist either that there can't be cheap phones that require the SIM card to be present all the time
19:53:38 <nakilon> and why there are User: pages in the Category:People?
19:54:12 <nakilon> maybe User pages were categorized as People to avoid duplication?
19:57:25 <int-e> nah it's just users adding themselves to that category presumably because they feel they are people
19:58:32 <int-e> the question is, do we care...
19:59:14 <fizzie> Users are people too? Sounds like some radical product design ideology to me.
20:00:03 <int-e> I'm feeling lenient today... I'd say if the user page actually says what they did (languages designed or programs written) it can be in that category.
20:00:46 <nakilon> yeah, probably, also might have to be written in the "he is", not "I am" narrative
20:00:55 <int-e> but I'm mostly indifferent; what I said is lazy
20:01:48 <int-e> The one that doesn't belong is User:Language
20:02:50 <b_jonas> nakilon: no. User: pages are for users of the wiki; [[Category:People]] has main namespace pages, not user namespace pages, about people, mostly famous ones, who may or may not be wiki users.
20:03:58 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
20:04:24 <b_jonas> just look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People for examples, there are only 67 pages in there, whereas there are about 1000 user pages
20:04:37 <int-e> oh I was looking at a cached version apparently
20:05:28 <b_jonas> in particular, ais523 and cpressey have both a user page and a main namespace page
20:05:36 <int-e> b_jonas: so do you care enough to remove the category from the user pages that are in it?
20:06:00 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:06:51 <int-e> hrm, can I see anywhere how old a cached version of a page is?
20:07:03 <b_jonas> int-e: I just propagate this info because I once started to edit ais's user page, and then he asked me nicely to put that information to a main namespace People page instead
20:07:15 <int-e> Cached time: 20191229022652 Cache expiry: 86400
20:07:23 <int-e> that looks bogus, somehow
20:07:42 <int-e> (from view-source:https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People when not logged in)
20:08:06 <b_jonas> int-e: you can always just try to go to ?action=purge of the page and then click on the button to regenerate the cache if you feel like it might be old
20:08:26 <int-e> But I'd rather understand why it is so old.
20:08:46 <int-e> I probably won't, but I can wish :P
20:12:20 <nakilon> b_jonas what is "planar array"? what would be a non-planar array?
20:14:09 <int-e> Taneb: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/doom.png
20:14:50 <int-e> (I genuinely misread this when I saw it on the wiki.)
20:16:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: its domain is a square grid on the plane. I admit it's not a good phrasing that I added.
20:16:07 <int-e> I like "Dr. Doom".
20:16:51 <nakilon> b_jonas, okay, I'll be editing it now, not sure if concurrent edits are possible
20:17:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: the source code of unefunge or trefunge wouldn't be planar
20:17:25 <int-e> I just realized that it's deliberate.
20:17:38 <nakilon> I only knew the term "planar graph"
20:17:41 <b_jonas> and most languages just take the source code as a linear string of characters, not as a planar array
20:17:46 <int-e> <span style="letter-spacing: -0.08em;"> is evil
20:17:58 <b_jonas> yes, it's not a good terminology, feel free to edit it to something cleaner
20:18:05 <int-e> and here I was trying to figure out how I misconfigured my browser
20:18:08 <nakilon> but what's the difference from "two-dimensional"?
20:18:12 <b_jonas> I hope I have cleaner phrasing for my suggestion to make Befunge a featured language.
20:19:10 <int-e> (Or was? I hope "is" is still applicable. But we haven't seen him in a long time.)
20:20:59 <nakilon> Befunge's page says: Code is layed out on a two-dimensional grid of instructions
20:21:56 <kmc> i still mix those two up
20:22:34 <nakilon> and why are there two space symbols between sentences?
20:23:03 <int-e> "However, the difference is that while they once meant the same thing, one is no longer used as a word."
20:23:11 <int-e> (about "laid" and "layed")
20:24:21 <int-e> hehe https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/846919788/typing-debate-do-you-type-2-spaces-between-sentences-or-1
20:25:12 <b_jonas> ah yes, for Befunge I write "where code is stored in a two-dimensional grid of instructions, each encoded by an ASCII character"
20:25:20 <int-e> https://grammarist.com/style/spaces-between-sentences/ blames it on typewriters and says it should be laid to rest.
20:25:53 <b_jonas> int-e: that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing.
20:26:35 <int-e> Emacs's auto fill agrees with having 2 spaces. I should configure it to not do that.
20:26:47 <int-e> b_jonas: ITYM "that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing."
20:27:20 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, on IRC I often use a less formal style, where I don't bother with consistent capitalization or punctuation
20:27:30 <int-e> I dislike it; the . is narrow enough to give the space following it a wider appearance.
20:28:03 <b_jonas> admittedly I'm also not consistent in double-spacing sentences in places where I wrote somewhat more properly
20:28:05 <int-e> But as with so many things this is a matter of habit and (implied, really) taste, not one of right or wrong.
20:28:34 <b_jonas> in case of Mediawiki, those spaces will be collapsed by HTML rules anyway, so the distinction doesn't matter all that much
20:28:37 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79463&oldid=79459 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stbu
20:29:05 <b_jonas> my source code comments have both single-spaced and double-spaced style
20:32:58 <nakilon> I suppose it's the job of OS font rendering to put enough space between . and letter when there is space char in between
20:33:54 <nakilon> oh no, someone has edited the page _--
20:46:28 <nakilon> wow the number of new languages each year is growing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories
20:49:02 <Hooloovo0> I mean it's easy to make a derivative language, but... huh
20:49:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: they're only growing if you count every page that calls itself a language. the number of *interesting* and novel languages isn't really growing.
20:49:19 <b_jonas> I mean their rate of creation isn't growing.
20:51:39 <nakilon> I wonder if it's possible to track them making a list of "innovative languages" that would have to introduce new feature not seen in languages before them
20:52:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: I recommend the approximation to take https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 and multiply it by a factor of between 2 to 6.
20:53:12 <b_jonas> admittedly that is not a good approximation
20:53:22 <b_jonas> because how many ideas ais has varies a bit
20:56:12 <nakilon> btw, Russian Wikipedia has a category Users Who Use IRC
20:56:47 <nakilon> there are several dozens of users there that is supposed to match those who can be contacted in the IRC channel here on Freenode
20:58:00 <nakilon> to be precise: "Категория:Википедия:Участники IRC-канала wikipedia-ru"
21:03:00 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79464&oldid=65721 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) wip
21:13:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79465&oldid=79303 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) More aggressive shortening
21:20:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79466&oldid=79465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-212) hm
21:23:58 -!- adminv has changed nick to zeroed.
21:28:34 <nakilon> the most interesting stuff I've read today on the wiki
21:28:38 <nakilon> "Using a stapler, the fork is multiplied by the sauce and the result assigned to the fork using a drinking glass. "
21:29:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: that's about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Efghij I think
21:29:19 <nakilon> how do you remember its name
21:29:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's linked from my user page
21:29:39 <nakilon> oh, it's the alphabet order
21:29:54 <b_jonas> well yes, but which part of the alphabet?
21:30:00 <nakilon> I found it from the category of languages that have no code
21:37:11 <b_jonas> is there a convenient representation of integers for intercal if you want to use those integers as indexes that you use to index arrays with, but you only increase or decrease them one at a time, and equality compare them, never subtract or add or less-than compare them?
21:40:01 <b_jonas> this would have to be unambiguous, unlike that other interesting representation where you represent an integer as the difference of two ordinary integers (or the difference of an ordinary integer from twice another ordinary integer), so that you always access the same element of the array for the same integer index
21:44:13 -!- sprocklem has joined.
21:50:38 -!- imode has joined.
22:01:57 <esowiki> [[Depend]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1363) Add Depend
22:02:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79468&oldid=79461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* D */ +[[Depend]]
22:03:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79469&oldid=79414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Languages */ +[[Depend]]
22:05:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79470&oldid=79466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Ini */ m
22:08:54 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:10:04 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:14:52 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:39:45 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
22:53:32 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:07:46 <esowiki> [[User:Nakilon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79471 * Nakilon * (+94) Created page with "Hello, I made [[RASEL]]. You can find me with the same nickname in IRC:Freenode and Telegram."
23:08:48 <nakilon> is RASEL Turing complete? I don't have a clue in these terms
23:16:01 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79472&oldid=79463 * Nakilon * (+2154) removed things that are already described in the article 'fungeoid'; added infobox proglang, instructions table, two basic examples
23:16:26 <nakilon> also maybe it applies to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Push-down_automata as Befunge does
23:17:47 <nakilon> I'll add some neat examples of using the 'a' instruction later
23:21:50 <nakilon> the 0.0.0 gem version had a bug of not having executable in it ) I've pushed the 0.0.1 version so now usage examples from README should work
23:36:33 <nakilon> btw, guys, there was a website with a game on Flash where you had to program a robot, and I can't find it
23:37:24 <nakilon> the language was short and you could pass functions into functions
23:39:59 <fizzie> We (as in, the channel collectively) played that one game slightly like that (which a HTML version too), but I don't think you could "pass functions into functions" in it, it was much simpler than that.
23:40:03 <b_jonas> apparently the game for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/15 is http://oeis.org/A181391
23:40:40 <nakilon> it was like a Lightbot in that thing that there is a field and you have to write instructions to only get out of this exact wield with walls, avoiding them and reach the exit
23:41:16 <nakilon> and solutions were ranked by the length of the code that as I said could be recursive
23:41:25 <fizzie> Yeah, that seems to be a common theme. This one had stars you needed to collect, and stay on a certain-colored square.
23:42:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: it is Turing-complete, yes, because you can simulate any of these darned finite state control machines with a single cyclic queue of a fixed alphabet in it
23:42:38 <fizzie> RoboZZle, that's what we played a bunch.
23:44:11 <b_jonas> ok, different attempt of proof. you can implement any [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] program in it
23:47:01 <b_jonas> whenever the simulated machine stores something into a register, you push it onto the stack and keep it there forever (or push the whole register set if you prefer). you can make a loop with the directional instructions, you can load the value of any register because you know how deep it is in the stack, so you push a constant then use the a instruction to get it from the stack. then we just have to
23:47:07 <b_jonas> verify that you can do addition, subtraction, multiplication, and integer division, if the two arguments are on the stack.
23:48:12 <b_jonas> or let's say, you can do those operations if you know how to push each argument to the stack
23:49:28 <b_jonas> so say >x> pushes the left argument and >y> pushes the right argument, then subtraction is >xy->, addition is >x0y-->, multiplication is >x1y//>,
23:49:28 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:50:04 <b_jonas> and integer division is >xy/:1%-> if I understand correctly how Rasel works
23:50:34 <b_jonas> this uses the fact that Rasel can store arbitrary precision integers on the stack of course
23:54:41 <b_jonas> if you use the fungeoid control flow too, I think it can even implement a machine with arbitrary finite state control and arithmetic and comparisons on several bigint registers: this time you do push the full register file to the top of the Razel stack after each simulated instruction, and use like >xy-?v> to branch down if x is lessequal to y
23:56:03 <b_jonas> you may still ask if Rasel is still turing-complete without using arbitrary size integers (or rationals, whatever), and I don't know the answer, but if it's not, then it would be with a bunch of extra registers, or with instructions that rearrange values in a top window of the stack
23:56:42 <b_jonas> I suspect it's already Turing-complete but don't want to bother proving it
00:03:52 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
00:28:41 <nakilon> fizzie that game was black and white
00:29:13 <nakilon> searched both places where screenshots of mine are archived for years but could not find it ( I'm sire I had the screenshot
00:32:14 <nakilon> I guess it's now only deep in my Google Plus Takeout archive
00:35:14 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:55:15 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:59:41 <nakilon> 02:50:12 <b_jonas> does that make sense?
01:24:51 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split).
01:24:51 -!- sparr has quit (*.net *.split).
01:24:51 -!- dnm has quit (*.net *.split).
01:25:59 -!- sparr has joined.
01:30:10 -!- sftp has joined.
01:30:10 -!- dnm has joined.
01:43:18 <fizzie> Hmm, is this a cfunge bug, or am I just misinterpreting something.
01:44:04 <fizzie> Unless I'm mistaken, its & instruction is, given the input "0\n", also consuming the newline from the input, which I think it shouldn't do.
01:46:43 <fizzie> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/cfunge/blob/master/src/input.c#L167 I guess that's an intentional choice, but I don't think that's how it should work.
01:47:06 <fizzie> "Decimal input reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters, at which point it reads a decimal number from those digits, up until (but not including) the point at which input characters stop being digits, or the point where the next digit would cause a cell overflow, whichever comes first." No special rules about newlines.
01:49:40 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:51:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:51:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:03:44 -!- stux|RC-only has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:05:29 -!- stux|RC-only has joined.
02:10:43 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:24:49 -!- xelxebar has joined.
02:32:35 <oren> https://paste.ee/p/4nJ0t
02:32:45 <oren> GCC is so wacky
02:33:34 <oren> I don't understand how it gets the correct value for y, but not x
02:33:53 <oren> or why it doesn't give any error
02:39:24 <oren> did GCC implement closures, but only one level of nesting or some shit?
02:44:54 <shachaf> what is this bizarro code tdnh
02:45:49 <shachaf> The C syntax for this thing is so hard to read when you don't use typedefs.
02:46:48 <oren> it's a uhh (int) -> (int) -> (int) -> struct rectprism
02:57:18 <oren> tcc and clang reject this
02:57:36 <shachaf> Right, nested functions are a GNU extension.
02:58:01 <shachaf> OK, I'm looking at the code now and I certainly wouldn't expect this to work.
02:58:12 <shachaf> f is only valid inside some_func.
02:58:33 <shachaf> You can't just return it and have the closure work anywhere.
02:59:06 <shachaf> The closure has a pointer into some_func's stack frame.
03:01:53 <nakilon> I think about making ~ and & also "work as trampoline or not" on EOF instead of reversing
03:16:52 <nakilon> fizzie btw my unfinished befunge-98 implementation has a bug around that -- it eats one char after integer
03:18:03 <nakilon> I fixed it in RASEL -- good thing Ruby provides ungetbyte method to push bytes back to the stream ..D
03:19:34 <nakilon> https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/fa758b9944e8ebd942c00b61be0c7476fe4aac4f/lib/rasel.rb#L77
03:36:50 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79473&oldid=79222 * Razetime * (+44) /* Looks Like */
03:37:12 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79474&oldid=79473 * Razetime * (+0) /* Looks Like */
04:18:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: I like the idea that ? now jumps forward one or two cells. this way you can write arbitrary control flow in one dimensional code by like pushing a number then ?j
04:19:09 <b_jonas> well, more like pushing a distance, then pushing the tested number, then ?j
04:36:58 <nakilon> the reversing ? kind of allowed that too, but yeah, it's good to keep the pointer going the same direction
04:50:38 <b_jonas> nakilon: hmm, that's true, though then you basically need a trampoline
04:51:23 <b_jonas> and I guess I should say ?j$ so it discards the jump length if the branch isn't taken
05:00:41 <b_jonas> anyway, I think RASEL can indeed simulate an arbitrary finite control machine with single queue of finite alphabet. represent the alphabet with small natural numbers. if a symbol is on the top of the stack, you can do a big case distinction on it like >:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-?v> . between states of the original machine, the stack shall contain the queue and then the length of the queue plus one over it. to
05:00:47 <b_jonas> push a symbol A, you can just >A\1+> . to shift a symbol and test it, you do like >:a :?v1-:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-?v>
05:00:55 <b_jonas> and to initialize an empty queue, just >1>
05:01:04 <b_jonas> so you don't in fact need bigints
05:03:00 <b_jonas> and this still works in single-line code, you just have to you just do L\?j$ to put the jump distance L under the number tested
05:05:17 <b_jonas> but it's still not clear to me if you can do an arbitrary computation in RASEL without leaving junk on the stack forever
05:06:33 <b_jonas> all the constructions I mentioned, both this one with a queue, and the one with integer registers (and, as a special case, blindfolded artithmetic, or state machine with a fixed number of stacks of finite alphabets) do leave junk on the stack.
05:10:31 <b_jonas> if you added a second memory (outside the stack) with random access load, store, and sbrk instructions, that would of course solve all the problems and make this something to which you can compile normal programs with a random-access memory.
05:11:15 <b_jonas> you could use the bottom of that extra memory as registers that you can load and store conveniently, which lets you rearrange the top of the stack
05:11:24 <b_jonas> and you could use the rest as just read-writable memory
05:12:04 <b_jonas> but that perhaps would be a different or less esoteric language.
05:12:49 <b_jonas> one that's more suitable for golfing at least though
05:26:58 <shachaf> OK, I'm back at it and immediately not sure what to do on the island with the broom.
05:27:51 <int-e> ...there are too many landmarks... was there a broom? or an oar?
05:28:32 <int-e> (Apparently I've seen 139 landmarks)
05:30:02 <int-e> I wish the map when traveling had coordinates
05:32:23 <b_jonas> int-e: does pressing F3 reveal your coordinates perhaps? :)
05:35:41 <int-e> shachaf: may require some thought :P
05:35:52 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, I already went elsewhere.
05:36:02 <shachaf> I realized there was a footprint area nearby that I didn't finish.
05:37:27 <shachaf> But it is solvable from just that island, it sounds like.
05:38:04 <int-e> imode: ah one of the games that I will never play because there's only two outcomes, both bad
05:38:28 <int-e> imode: 1) I hate it. 2) I get addicted and spend the next half year solely on minecraft
05:42:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
05:45:22 <b_jonas> int-e: press F3 for that in Minecraft
05:45:29 <b_jonas> ah yes, imode already told you
05:46:08 <b_jonas> and I guess that makes sense, int-e
06:12:50 <shachaf> Oh man, this is definitely a glitch in how it displays this interaction.
06:14:54 <int-e> hey maybe you've found something I don't know... I don't remember glitches
06:15:21 <shachaf> I mean, it just snaps the tree from one place to another instead of moving continuously.
06:15:22 <int-e> not even animation glitches
06:15:36 <shachaf> Oh, whoa, I'm 278 islands in and only now I realize that you can stop onto short rocks?
06:16:00 <int-e> yes that was a surprise to me as well
06:16:29 <shachaf> In the "non-spoiler" review of the game, it distinguished between short rocks and tall rocks.
06:16:37 <shachaf> And I've been wondering why. I guess this it why.
06:17:59 <int-e> and it's a great twist because it gives you a pretty different flavor of puzzles
06:18:20 <shachaf> This puzzle didn't even use it.
06:18:57 <int-e> Yeah, they are doing a good job of introduces the mechanic first as an accident, then make use of it in later puzzles
06:19:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: do you mean "step onto" or "stop on"?
06:19:16 <int-e> b_jonas: the former
06:26:01 -!- arseniiv has joined.
06:28:49 <shachaf> I'm not sure what distinction you're making.
06:29:12 <shachaf> Short rocks are elevated, and if you're also elevated, you can step onto them.
06:34:36 <int-e> shachaf: you made a typo
07:00:30 <shachaf> Now I'm puzzled by 303,102
07:03:26 <int-e> let me guess, it's another puzzle
07:06:02 <shachaf> There's a tall tree, a short tree, and a short rock, if that clears it up.
07:08:20 <int-e> sounds like every 6th island :)
07:09:10 <int-e> (I'd have to start up the game and I'm refusing this time)
07:09:49 <shachaf> Oh no, I didn't mean to make you start up the game.
07:09:59 <shachaf> I thought you had it up already before, since you said 139 landmarks.
07:11:10 <int-e> the main issue I have is that they made finding islands really inconvenient
07:11:34 <int-e> even navigating by coordinates is a process of trial and error
07:12:00 <shachaf> It's https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-16-231107_3840x2160.png if you're curious
07:13:16 <int-e> ah, yeah, that one looks fun
07:18:08 <shachaf> Oh, wait, this was so easy.
07:18:12 <shachaf> I was so close the whole time.
07:18:39 <int-e> I should set up a proxy for myself that resizes images
07:20:03 <shachaf> Why do you want them smaller?
07:20:22 <int-e> because the 3MB download takes noticable time for me
07:20:50 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
07:21:18 <shachaf> Too bad every web page has 3MB of JavaScript these days.
07:21:19 <int-e> and all the information is still perfectly visible at 25% of the size
07:21:28 <int-e> I also disable JS.
07:21:34 <int-e> Almost everywhere.
07:21:35 <shachaf> It's being upscaled from 1920x1080 anyway.
07:22:00 <shachaf> Did you know that in JavaScript, "for (let i = 0; i < n; i++) { BODY }" is different from "{ let i; for (i = 0; i < n; i++) { BODY } }"?
07:22:07 <zzo38> Not all web pages have 3MB of JavaScript; some have less, and a few have none at all.
07:23:45 <int-e> zzo38: oh really I didn't know
07:24:04 <shachaf> zzo38: Some also have more.
07:24:37 <zzo38> Yes, some have more. I don't know how much is the average
07:26:18 <zzo38> I would try to avoid it by promoting the use of plain text, simple HTML (when plain text won't do), NNTP, Gopher, simpler VMs in case you need one anyways, etc
07:27:59 <shachaf> zzo38: But I want my traffic to be encryptd. I don't think Gopher supports that.
07:29:25 <zzo38> You could use Gopher or any other protocol with TLS, I suppose, but I don't know which implementations will do that. Gemini supports encryption, though.
07:30:07 <zzo38> Of course HTTP is still useful too, but there are too many complicated things and stupid things that should be avoided hopefully even when doing so
07:33:53 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb).
07:36:21 -!- lambdabot has joined.
07:55:37 -!- TheLie has joined.
08:02:57 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
08:04:40 <shachaf> I'm wondering whether there's some inter-island thing going on.
08:05:29 <int-e> it's not unheard of
08:06:10 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I need to get to the other place first...
08:06:28 <shachaf> But that doesn't seem possible, and the footprints are on this island.
08:06:36 <shachaf> It's in the mushroom area.
08:06:42 <int-e> (I did not check where that is, I'm speaking in general)
08:15:29 <int-e> . o O ( Sometimes there's a remote chance of making progress. )
08:15:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:18:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
08:19:59 <shachaf> I've seen almost nothing use the mechanic that trees with leaves are different from trees without leaves.
08:20:04 <shachaf> Maybe a couple of puzzles early on.
08:22:11 <shachaf> So far I'm at 302 islands and 0 friends.
08:36:51 <int-e> I've only seen very few uses of that mechanic as well.
08:37:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:37:18 <int-e> possible as few as one
08:37:43 <int-e> there's another mechanic I've only seen once
08:39:57 <shachaf> OK, now I'm in a snowy area that has you walking on rocks.
08:43:27 <int-e> what an uplifting experience
08:45:00 <shachaf> One problem is that it's approximately impossible for me to figure out the "parity" of a log a few moves ahead.
08:45:07 <shachaf> I'm so bad at that kind of thing.
08:45:47 <int-e> if in doubt try it out
09:01:46 <shachaf> OK, that's enough for tonight.
09:46:22 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:52:12 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:53:23 <nakilon> 10:20:22 <int-e> because the 3MB download takes noticable time for me
09:53:34 <nakilon> that screemshot just had to be in jpeg somehow
09:54:04 <nakilon> 10:21:18 <shachaf> Too bad every web page has 3MB of JavaScript these days.
09:54:10 <nakilon> not every, only Youtube, and it gets cached
09:54:31 <int-e> nakilon: it's a 3840x2160.png
09:56:05 <int-e> A Monster's Expedition
09:57:25 <shachaf> nakilon: Nothing gets cached because I use new private browsing sessions all the time.
09:57:34 <int-e> it's loosely based on Sokoban
09:57:41 <nakilon> and yeah, not only that could be in JPEG, the game state is actually 5x5 cells
09:57:45 <int-e> but you know over trees to travel from island to island
09:58:04 <shachaf> It's just a screenshot, not a hyperoptimized transfer of state.
09:58:29 <nakilon> screenshots don't have to be in png
09:58:33 <int-e> know over -> knock over
09:59:07 <int-e> nakilon: what else could they be; PCX doesn't have enough colors
09:59:14 <int-e> BMP is to micro-softy
09:59:26 <nakilon> why do you make private youtube browsing sessions?
09:59:32 <nakilon> there is nothing illegal on youtube
10:02:02 <int-e> pretty sure it first appeared in Windows 3.x
10:02:41 <int-e> Or even Windows 2.0 but who ever even used that...
10:02:46 <shachaf> Sure, that's the origin of the format, but the format itself?
10:02:56 <int-e> It was used heavily in OS/2 as well.
10:03:08 <shachaf> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/BMPfileFormat.png
10:03:23 <int-e> I still only see BMP files in Windows.
10:04:33 <int-e> In practice most of the pictures I have are PNG and JPEG anyway.
10:04:56 <int-e> And it makes very much sense for screenshots to default to PNG.
10:05:50 <shachaf> Presumably people could do way better than JPEG nowadays for lossy image compression?
10:07:36 <int-e> There's JPEG2000 which is burdened by patents... I suppose webp is the latest attempt to overcome JPEG?
10:08:10 <nakilon> it does not make sense to screenshot games in png
10:08:53 <nakilon> most of the games use jpeg by default in their built-in screenshoting feature
10:09:02 <nakilon> because they realise this thing
10:11:08 <nakilon> unfortunately unlike jpeg the webp is being changed everyday -- they patch the format and the CLI webp converter tools become incompatible even with Google Chrome
10:17:18 <shachaf> I didn't use a built-in screenshotting feature.
10:17:37 <shachaf> I just have one screenshot button, and it shoots the exact pixels that are on screen.
10:17:41 <shachaf> Why would I have more than that?
10:18:05 <nakilon> jpeg does not mean it takes another number of pixels
10:19:14 -!- TheLie has joined.
10:19:51 <int-e> jpeg is not a good default for screenshots
10:21:36 <nakilon> that's why Steam makes screenshots in jpeg too
10:21:41 <int-e> screenshots should be lossless by default, to preserve small details and text
10:22:11 <nakilon> games don't have small details and text
10:22:24 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNywILJMGg
10:22:29 <int-e> . o O ( somebody has never playeed TIS-100 )
10:22:58 <FireFly> I believe a fairly large fraction of games contain dialogue
10:23:04 <int-e> there are many games that feature lots of text
10:23:22 <nakilon> 13:08:10 <nakilon> it does not make sense to screenshot games in png
10:23:38 <nakilon> where did I say here that it makes no sense to screenshot small details and text in png?
10:23:51 <int-e> now if the only games you play are fast-paced games rendered with a 3D engine you're probably right
10:23:52 <Taneb> Games often have small details and text
10:24:05 <FireFly> many games have small details and text
10:24:19 <FireFly> where you probably want crisp screenshots :p
10:24:34 <FireFly> doesn't really matter though
10:24:41 <Taneb> A lot of games also have large regions of flat colours, which I believe is very suitable for PNG
10:24:45 <FireFly> would make sense to have it be a setting I guess
10:24:50 <nakilon> "there are many games that" does not negate the fact that most of the games don't have it
10:24:55 <int-e> Besides, even for 3D games I'd prefer lossless screenshots; I can always compress them myself later.
10:24:57 <Taneb> Most of the games I play do
10:25:24 <Taneb> Why do you care what other people use to take screenshots of things to show to still other people?
10:25:28 <nakilon> guys, I guess you just were never really making screenshots
10:25:59 <nakilon> and don't realise that even if the game has 75% of screen scape of one flat color it still does not make png screenshot smaller
10:26:36 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Batsharks are people too!).
10:26:46 <Taneb> Again, why do you care
10:27:09 <nakilon> because in fact the screenshots you were sharing today were not from TIS, they were from the average game
10:27:15 <int-e> Regardless, we were discussing a default of builtin OS functionality, and there's simply no argument to be made for using JPEG in that context.
10:27:18 <nakilon> and it was 3mb while could be 300kb
10:27:34 <FireFly> this also depends on the lossiness of the jpeg, no?
10:27:50 <nakilon> default OS functionality has nothing to do with png, it takes shots in bmp
10:28:08 <FireFly> maybe I'm missing some context here, idk
10:28:25 <Taneb> nakilon: that depends on which OS you're using. Many of us do not use Windows
10:28:27 <shachaf> Who said anything about the number of pixels? I care about the content of the pixels.
10:28:40 <nakilon> it's the job of additional software to convert the clipboard to png or jpeg and you usually have a choice that you may want to do carefully
10:28:41 <shachaf> I only have one screenshot button. I don't really want a different kind of screenshot for games.
10:28:52 <Taneb> Screenshots on my computer take PNG by default
10:29:15 <nakilon> Taneb pretty sure every OS stores clipboard as bitmap
10:29:46 <Taneb> If I press my print screen button, it saves a PNG in my Pictures directory.
10:29:52 <Taneb> I have done no configuration to set this up
10:29:53 <nakilon> guys, you confuse all the things with each other
10:30:03 <nakilon> computer, keyboard, software, clipboard
10:30:11 <Taneb> This is the default on my OS and desktop environment
10:30:34 <Taneb> I still don't know why you care so much about this
10:30:40 <shachaf> You're the one bringing all these things up. I have no clipboard. Screenshots get saved into the screenshot directory.
10:30:43 <FireFly> looking at the screenshots I've apparently taken in steam, I think I'm happier with all four as png's than jpg's :p
10:30:44 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
10:30:54 <shachaf> I set up my own screenshot thing which is better than the system I've seen in any OS by default.
10:31:23 <shachaf> You press Print Screen, and it shows a little modal menu at the top of the screen, and then you press w to screenshot a window, r to screenshot the whole screen, or s to select a region.
10:31:43 <shachaf> Instead of memorizing Alt+PrtScr or Cmd+Shift+5 or some nonsense like that.
10:32:32 <nakilon> so the thing is that you just don't care how your tools are configured
10:32:42 <Taneb> shachaf clearly cares
10:32:50 <Taneb> I don't know why you care about how I take screenshots
10:33:07 <nakilon> and in result you throw screenshots that weight 3mb and have only 25 bytes of meaningfull data in it
10:33:09 <Taneb> Perhaps the thing you care about is starting arguments?
10:33:18 <int-e> I have a question... what's a clipboard :P
10:33:29 <int-e> I know about active selections
10:33:37 <nakilon> if there was no problem in it there would be no message in this chat: "hey, why your screenshot is 3mb" -- it was not me who said that
10:33:51 <shachaf> int-e: It's one of the X11 selections.
10:33:55 <nakilon> so you are suffering from your own unwilling to learn about image formats
10:34:00 <shachaf> PRIMARY and CLIPBOARD are the two standard ones.
10:34:11 <int-e> (sadly X11 *does* have a clipboard mechanism, and I always have to jump through hoops to work with software that uses it)
10:34:23 <shachaf> What is it about image formats that I haven't learned that you're saying I need to learn?
10:34:50 <shachaf> I think the real problem is that my screenshot was only 3 millibits, and that's not nearly enough information.
10:35:56 <shachaf> I uploaded a 3 MB screenshot because the thing I want by default -- when I don't think about it -- is a lossless reproduction of my screen. When I think about it I can switch to something else.
10:36:03 <shachaf> Why am I getting into this again?
10:36:11 <int-e> nakilon: I may have complained about the size, but I still consider that to be *my* problem, not shachaf's.
10:36:26 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
10:36:42 <shachaf> Taneb: Speaking of images, I wrote a sonnet and got cat pictures!
10:36:48 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
10:36:50 <Taneb> shachaf: I saw on Twitter! It was a good sonnet
10:36:57 <nakilon> int-e you can barely control how you obtain the data
10:37:07 <nakilon> it's a problem of data provider to provide good api, good formats
10:37:15 <int-e> nakilon: But I can.
10:37:38 <nakilon> he could use some better website integration, something that asks what format to use for sharing or convert automatically
10:38:09 <Taneb> Anche mi piacciono i gatti
10:38:12 <int-e> nakilon: But it's bad style to expect others to solve your problems for you, unless you're paying for it.
10:38:35 <nakilon> in >99% of cases there would be nothing bad if his screenshot was converted on the website to jpeg for sharing
10:38:50 <shachaf> I'll solve your problems for you!
10:38:57 <shachaf> If you express them as 2SAT instances.
10:39:23 <nakilon> int-e he gave you the problem, it's his problem
10:39:56 <nakilon> he pressed the printscreen
10:40:52 <shachaf> Taneb: Remind me, are you into SAT solvers?
10:40:59 <shachaf> It seems like everyone is these days.
10:41:08 <int-e> shachaf: 2SAT is so limited...
10:41:38 <arseniiv> I will look at them and devise
10:42:18 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm, OK, I'll let you use arbitrary Horn clauses.
10:42:49 <int-e> Yay, I have used Horn clauses.
10:42:51 <nakilon> one of you is sharing a screenshot in not suitable format, another one highlights the problem and when I come to help solving it I get "stop arguing" themed responses
10:43:09 <arseniiv> I too am confused what’s clipboard to do with all that. I have a little program which doesn’t leave anything in clipboard when it takes a shot
10:43:16 <Taneb> shachaf: I was for a while but I haven't been thinking about them for a while
10:45:29 <shachaf> nakilon: I think you're missing something about, I don't know, magnitude or weight or something.
10:45:57 <nakilon> arseniiv that program calls API of your OS that returns it in BMP or specified format, that program might be configurable or improved
10:46:11 <shachaf> Someone mentioned that 3MB was kind of big (and said they themselves wanted to take care of it for themselves, not even requested that anyone else do anything).
10:46:38 <arseniiv> nakilon: yep it’s configurable and spews me out a png to a folder
10:46:52 <shachaf> I saw that, took it into account, and slightly adjusted my weights in the future. Maybe next time I'll resize or convert the image, or maybe I'll just think about it.
10:47:04 <nakilon> the size of content in internet isn't what the read requestor should care -- he can't compress it on the source
10:47:43 <shachaf> That's all that needed to happen here, for either party. It's not a binary thing that is either broken or solved, just a continuum of preferences and things that you can adjust a bit.
10:48:05 <arseniiv> for now I personally have a pretty good internet access so I would be glad to download maybe even a bmp
10:48:06 <shachaf> So insisting that people adjust all sorts of things immediately with a particular solution you have in mind doesn't really help.
10:48:22 -!- aloril has joined.
10:48:47 <arseniiv> and many people, I think, will be not against downloading bmp :)
10:49:01 <shachaf> I don't know whether you read what int-e said, but it was an idea about having a proxy that resizes images. Which is in the requester's control.
10:49:12 <nakilon> switching to using non optimal data formats just because you've got faster internet is the same wrong thing as starting making worse software with worse algorithms just because you've got faster computers
10:49:49 <int-e> > 3840*2160*3 / 1024^2
10:49:50 <shachaf> "optimal" only makes sense in the context of optimizing something. What are you optimizing?
10:50:51 <lambdabot> KOAK 171041Z 16009KT 3SM -RA BR SCT006 BKN010 OVC024 13/11 A2998 RMK AO2 P0007 T01330106
10:51:15 <Taneb> shachaf: one thing I've been thinking about is a SAT solver that aims to create as human-understandable proofs as possible
10:51:42 <shachaf> That's interesting. What would those look like?
10:52:00 <nakilon> do you realise the price you pay for internet would be several times smaller if people were not playing 4k videos on their broken glass 720p phones turned on behind their backs while they are cooking?
10:52:09 <int-e> . o O ( brain saturation )
10:52:30 <int-e> nakilon: that's likely false
10:52:55 <Taneb> I think all the clauses would have to be named, and the solver would report things like "By clause xyz, we know that variable t must be false"
10:53:22 <nakilon> the internet is overpolluted by data that isn't used and we pay for all the infrastructure for it
10:53:25 <int-e> nakilon: the technology you're talking about is only being deployed because people actually use the bandwidth.
10:53:57 <nakilon> effective data barely gets larger but the price stays the same let's say $20 per months no matter how better the hardware gets
10:54:07 <nakilon> because people think "hey I've got so much room, lets trash it"
10:54:10 <Taneb> It'd need to try and find a shallow proof when it needs to speculate, but I'm not sure which dimension it'd need to be shallow
10:54:36 <nakilon> not even knowing that when they buy the "100mbit internet" it's only measured in peak
10:54:41 <int-e> In an alternative history where nobody ever dared to use bandwidth you might be spending $20 a months plus a fixed rate per minute on dual ISDN lines.
10:54:55 <int-e> or more, $20 seems rather low
10:56:45 <nakilon> in not the most technologically developed country
10:56:52 <shachaf> Taneb: What sorts of proofs are you thinking of applying this to?
10:56:56 <nakilon> so you can realise how much you overpay
10:57:06 <shachaf> I wonder whether you'd rather have something higher-level than SAT for expressing things.
10:57:06 <nakilon> because of people watching 4k with their backs
10:57:09 <Taneb> shachaf: mostly little puzzle games like what's in sgtpuzzles
10:57:19 <Taneb> Or at least, that's what inspired me down this line of thought
10:57:35 <shachaf> Human solutions to these puzzles often look pretty different from computer solutions.
10:57:54 <int-e> nakilon: that's way too simplistic. the rates are in a large part arbitrary and determined by available income of the people
10:58:03 <int-e> it's not a free market, by and large
10:58:17 <shachaf> Since humans are bad at backtracking, so they try to minimize it and find very short paths to contradictions.
10:58:28 <nakilon> people will spend all their income without need getting anything for that
10:58:51 <int-e> shachaf: humans will often prove lemmas that aren't expressed in a couple of clauses (which DPLL might learn)
10:59:32 <shachaf> I think some puzzles are just not particularly human-solvable, even if they're in NP.
10:59:47 <shachaf> Since "having a human solution path" is a stronger constraint than "having a solution".
11:00:12 <shachaf> Another thing is that a human doesn't just want to satisfy the puzzle, they want to satisfy it uniquely, right?
11:00:42 <int-e> shachaf: well, it depends on the human :)
11:01:10 <shachaf> Sure, I'm proposing some model of what it means to be human-solvable, or human-fun.
11:01:22 <Taneb> A lot of these puzzles have a unique solution by design (and I have taken that as an assumption in solving puzzles in the past)
11:01:22 <int-e> speaking for myself, yes, I'm happier knowing that a solution is unique
11:01:42 <int-e> Looking at some advanced Sudoku solving patterns... not all people care.
11:02:06 <shachaf> I posted another sudoku: https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Benutzer/eingestellt.php?name=shachaf
11:02:17 <shachaf> I don't think it's that interesting.
11:02:42 <shachaf> In some sense it's just an easier version of the 6-12 sudoku that int-e already solved.
11:03:01 <int-e> fizzie: somehow, today's AoC task doesn't look very twisty :P
11:03:06 <nakilon> why do you care about how the puzzle is solved, any solution will do, we have cool intel cpus in 2020
11:03:28 <fizzie> int-e: I *just* regenerated the plot, like, five minutes ago.
11:03:30 <int-e> nakilon: it's called an intellectual challenge
11:03:35 <shachaf> Of the four sudoku puzzles I posted, one of them can be solved entirely with unit propagation.
11:03:56 <shachaf> Which maybe counts as extremely boring?
11:04:02 <fizzie> And no, it's not very twisty.
11:04:29 <nakilon> I just press the button "download the solution" and it downloads and I have it
11:04:30 <int-e> People seem to struggle with it though.
11:05:27 <fizzie> Also, now I've got an actual wrapper script to do the "fetch any new leaderboards, if there were any update the dataframe and redraw the plots"; http://ix.io/2Ip8
11:05:43 <fizzie> It doesn't scp the results or run with cron yet, though.
11:06:04 <fizzie> Also, it makes the assumption that if it's more than 2 hours after midnight Eastern time, it's okay to download the day's leaderboard.
11:06:26 <fizzie> So if they do a trickier puzzle that takes more than 2 hours for the 100th person to solve, that might fail.
11:06:39 <int-e> Well, that assumption has worked out fine so far.
11:09:00 <fizzie> It's a historically pretty sound assumption, violated by 6 days out of 142.
11:09:22 <int-e> how many of those were in 2015?
11:09:49 <fizzie> 2015 days 1, 19 and 22; 2016 day 11; 2018 day 15; and 2019 day 22.
11:10:50 <fizzie> On which days the 100th person took approximately 186, 232, 183, 164, 143 and 124 minutes to get two stars, respectively.
11:12:27 <int-e> Oh yeah, I remember wondering on day 22 last year why it was so hard :P
11:12:52 <nakilon> you may do again those messages that I assume to be rude, such as "you are looking for arguing" or "/help ignore" but I'm still amazed by how bad the idea is to make an end consumer of IRC screenshot links to setup and configure some proxy for his personal internet browsing instead of storing the content in a proper format in the first place,
11:12:53 <nakilon> because he won't know he wants that piece of data compressed until he click the link and see that "oh it's that game screenshot" so he'll have to switch all his way of browsing the internet to a proxy solution and then switch to uncompressed format and redownload the link again if he sees "ah, this has details I should now turn the proxy off" just
11:12:53 <nakilon> because some people are lazy to find a better way of sharing screenshots
11:13:23 <int-e> nakilon: nobody is making me do anything here
11:13:25 <nakilon> (tell me if the message didn't fit the irc limit if you care)
11:19:48 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:30:28 <Taneb> shachaf: I am not very good at these fancy sudokus
11:30:38 <Taneb> I'm not too great at regular sudokus, come to that
11:31:17 <shachaf> The middle two are easier than the other two.
11:31:19 <int-e> Taneb: the fancy ones may be easier than the regular ones because they rely less on obscure patterns that only sudoku experts have internalized
11:31:51 <int-e> (And I'm not a Sudoku expert.)
11:31:54 <shachaf> The constraints for all of these puzzles are very strong.
11:32:06 <shachaf> With no clues, I think the most recent one has 288 solutions.
11:32:15 <shachaf> And the others were also in the range of hundreds.
11:34:49 -!- rain1 has joined.
11:42:45 <aaaaaa> Isn't a true Sudoku puzzle must have only one solution?
11:43:44 <int-e> aaaaaa: yes, but (to me) it still feels awkward to rely on that information without verification
11:50:03 <rain1> a pen and paper puzzle should have a unique solution that can be reached through deduction alone
11:50:40 <rain1> but there is debate about whether or not the solver should exploit uniqueness to make deductions
11:53:00 <shachaf> "deduction" means you find a satisfying assignment, and then you rule that one out, and then it's UNSAT, right?
11:53:50 <int-e> shachaf: assuming X, you can show that there is not exactly one solution. Can you conclude not X?
11:54:17 <shachaf> Sure, I know the uniqueness thing you mean.
11:54:40 <shachaf> In some puzzles it's very blatant and happens all the time.
11:54:54 <shachaf> With sudoku it's kind of rare but still happens.
12:00:14 -!- spruit11 has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:10:33 -!- spruit11 has joined.
12:18:56 <rain1> it's very interesting imo
12:19:39 <shachaf> I saw a sudoku variant that said: Solve this sudoku such that the highlighted cells, taken on their own, are enough for a unique solution.
12:20:37 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:21:41 <int-e> feed it to a QBF solver :/
12:22:41 <shachaf> How many quantifiers do you need? Just two, right?
12:22:57 <int-e> exists ... forall, one alternation
12:23:08 <shachaf> I think all the SMT solvers do exists-forall nowadays.
12:23:37 <shachaf> Which is stretching the meaning of SMT a bit.
12:38:22 <Arcorann_> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irrationalconcepts/oops-all-edges <-- don't know if this is relevant, but it is amusing (maybe not for the solver)
13:11:29 <int-e> is your RAM shielded... https://www.zdnet.com/article/academics-turn-ram-into-wifi-cards-to-steal-data-from-air-gapped-systems/ :-/
13:14:08 <int-e> Oh there's a list of more techniquess like it at the bottom, some of which I didn't know about.
13:14:15 <aaaaaa> int-e: but the PC must be trojaned before?
13:14:25 <int-e> aaaaaa: for this, yep
13:15:00 <aaaaaa> this is what is called 'side-channel attack'
13:16:58 <int-e> "play sound from power supply"
13:17:43 <aaaaaa> int-e: didn't get it too
13:18:35 <aaaaaa> Have anybody using Tarski's world?
13:18:57 <int-e> aaaaaa: you can modulate the power consumption of a processor or GPU and that will affect electromagnetic transformers and potentially other elements on a PSU
13:19:27 <int-e> aaaaaa: so I imagine that's the kind of thing they're doing
13:30:26 <int-e> fungot: what should I do?
13:30:27 <fungot> int-e: madam president, the fnord of older civilisations, allow me to make a strong commitment to the aim and objectives of the lisbon target, that is of course a large number of juvenile fish caught. if this money is however coming entirely from national sources and include statistics from greece for the last time i take the view that little or nothing can be paid out or which biometric risks need to be discussed and that a co
13:31:16 <int-e> that was pretty good
13:31:30 <int-e> I'm almost sorry that it got cut off
13:32:18 -!- delta23 has joined.
13:34:11 <fizzie> Ah, the famous Lisbon target of catching a lotta fish.
13:36:07 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:36:08 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
14:11:31 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:11:51 -!- xelxebar has joined.
14:14:01 -!- rain1 has joined.
14:17:54 <b_jonas> "<int-e> I should set up a proxy for myself that resizes images" => set it up with three backends, one for each continents, so it only has to transmit the smaller image under the ocean. :-)
14:22:52 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I didn't use a built-in screenshotting feature. / I just have one screenshot button, and it shoots the exact pixels that are on screen. / Why would I have more than that?" => well, sometimes the screenshot feature built into a game could save an image that is a larger part of the level than fits to the screen and that you would scroll on the screen in-game and when viewing later
14:24:35 <int-e> . o O ( isn't shooting screens rather expensive in the long run )
14:30:31 <b_jonas> I don't use any sort of OS built-in screnshot functionality. I make screenshots with the screenshot features built into GIMP or Irfanview, because if I take a screenshot, I always want to post-process it, like decide whether to keep or discard it, crop, possibly color reduce, possibly censor parts, occasionally stitch multiple screenshots, decide how to encode, decide the filename. You need a graphics
14:30:37 <b_jonas> editor for some of that, and they can already do all the steps that come up, so there's no point to use anything else.
14:31:25 <b_jonas> OS functionality made sense when all it did was read the characters from the video memory and send them to the line printer, and you didn't have the hardware to load a graphics editor program for that.
14:32:29 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> send me all the pngs" => sorry, I refuse because I take most of them for work, and they may contain trade secrets
14:32:47 <b_jonas> not even our trade secrets, but secrets of our customers and partners.
14:33:57 <fizzie> You can tell when [REDACTED INTERNAL TOOL] added a dark mode at a glance by looking at the overall luminance of my screenshot history.
14:34:07 <fizzie> Well, when I turned it on, not exactly when they added it.
14:35:05 <fizzie> Is there a standard web 3.11 API for detecting if the user prefers a dark theme or a light one? I imagine there must be.
14:35:32 <fizzie> Apparently it's a CSS media selector. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/prefers-color-scheme
14:36:08 <fizzie> "If you have set privacy.resistFingerprinting to true, prefers-color-scheme preference is overridden to light." Tradeoffs, tradeoffs.
14:38:14 <esowiki> [[MiniStringFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79475&oldid=60958 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* See also */ m
14:38:27 <b_jonas> "<Taneb> It'd need to try and find a shallow proof when it needs to speculate, but I'm not sure which dimension it'd need to be shallow" => maximum stack depth of when you try multiple values of a variable backtrackingly, after tail call optimization, I think.
14:38:43 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79476&oldid=78344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Original version */ m
14:41:27 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79477&oldid=78014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Stack class */ link
14:42:10 <int-e> oh I missed that... depth is not necessarily a problem when it's all unit propagation or very shallow subproofs that fall into a pattern
14:42:27 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79478&oldid=79116 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Update
14:42:37 <int-e> which I guess is similar to TCO
14:43:38 <int-e> There's a related problem where you try to assess the difficulty of a puzzle to a human.
14:44:00 <int-e> Which is probably harder because you have to account for experience somehow.
14:44:22 <int-e> But maybe not significantly harder.
14:45:50 <b_jonas> oh, while we're at puzzles, I'll just mention something I was idly wondering about
14:47:07 <b_jonas> consider the following single-player game. the level is a maze that's a graph with rooms for vertices and (undirected) corridors for edges. one vertex is marked as the player's location, and one as the goal.
14:47:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:47:48 <int-e> . o O ( Not quite Hunt the Wumpus )
14:50:17 <b_jonas> each edge has a door. doors come in triples: each door is marked with a pair of a name and a state, where the state is one of open, ajar, closed, and each pair can only occur at most once. you can't walk through a closed door, and you can walk through an open door without any side effect. but when you walk through an ajar door, then it changes to open, the open door with the same name shuts to closed,
14:50:23 <b_jonas> and the closed door with the same name changes to ajar, simultaneously. states of the doors with different name don't change during that, and the names of doors never change.
14:51:52 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
14:52:02 <int-e> so... for each name, there are always three door, in a permutation of those three states?
14:52:53 <b_jonas> solving this puzzle is clearly in PSPACE, but I'd like to know what computational complexity it has more preciesly. with doors I can simulate one-way corridors, and level crossings (in case you want a planar graph). I can also make a level that takes exponential number of steps to solve, using a simple binary counter. but I don't know if you can simulate general binary storage.
14:53:58 <b_jonas> int-e: and the three have a cyclic order, you can only pass through them in that order and not backwards, though you can pass through the same door multiple times without affecting that cyclic order, even if you pass through other doors between. and the cyclic order isn't quite enough, because the starting state has to be observed.
14:54:16 <int-e> and of course you can put all the open doors in an unreachable area if you like
14:54:36 <int-e> so the toggle mechanic is the most relevant
14:54:52 <b_jonas> the other question that I'd like to know, besides computational complexity, is whether it's possible to make interesting puzzle levels from this, that is, ones that have only few doors and yet aren't trivial to solve.
14:55:30 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not a toggle mechanic, it's always a cyclic permutation of three
14:55:47 <int-e> it's a cyclic shift, never mind
14:56:23 <b_jonas> you can simulate a toggle where you have to pass two *directed* corridor-paths alternatingly, using multiple doors, if you wish
14:56:45 <int-e> is that intentional?
14:56:45 <esowiki> [[Terse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79479&oldid=37471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-71) Introduction, proper ==
14:57:00 <int-e> it's a fun coincidence then
14:57:24 <int-e> makes it easier to remember
14:59:19 <b_jonas> if not, I'd also like to know if you can make interesting puzzle levels from some extensions of this; and references for where something like this game is already known
14:59:27 <int-e> .-A-.-C-.-O-. all with the same name is a directed edge (with some irrelevant extra state in the first door) :)
15:01:46 <int-e> oh well, something to ponder... these kinds of things tend to take some time
15:01:53 <b_jonas> int-e: I imagine it drawn more nethack-like: .#\#.#+#.#-#. where \ is an ajar door, + a closed door, - or | an open door in a horizontal or vertical corridor resp, and there's a letter close to each door next to the corridor that shows the names, plus there's color
15:02:58 <b_jonas> and if those states really only have just two edges, then optionally draw them on one corridor without a room, like .#\##+##-#.
15:03:06 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79480&oldid=77358 * DGCK81LNN * (+640)
15:03:31 <b_jonas> but still allow the player to stand in those virtual rooms, because in the general case you may want to stop and turn in any of those places
15:03:39 <b_jonas> general case as in the names of the doors can differ
15:09:14 <fizzie> `` unidecode $'\u26c4'
15:09:15 <HackEso> [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
15:09:19 <fizzie> Isn't that almost a contradiction? And why did I only know learn that exists, when http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ has been a thing for years.
15:10:29 <HackEso> [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN]
15:10:55 <int-e> maybe it's plastic or chocolate
15:12:08 <HackEso> [U+1F328 CLOUD WITH SNOW] [U+1F3D4 SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAIN]
15:12:40 <int-e> (I skipped the snowflakes and some kanji)
15:13:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't know what a snowman without snow is, but I feel repulsion towards the concept. I learned to ski as a small child, and a few times I had the terrible occasion to try these dry (i.e. without snow) ski pistes, where you ski on plastic tennis court floor with lubricants, and they're a really bad experience. I do admit that it's much cheaper than traveling to real ski pistes, so it's not just
15:13:20 <b_jonas> pointless torture for children, but it's still torture. The dry piste is entirely flat with none of the interesting texture variations that a real snow terrain causes, and even besides that it feels bad.
15:14:26 <fizzie> `` unidecode $'\u26c7' # you also skipped
15:14:40 <fizzie> Which could just be a soot-covered one in the city.
15:15:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: ah yes, and I assume you combine any of these basic snowman code points with gender symbols, skin tone modifiers, hairstyle modifiers, eyelash style modifiers, eye color modifiers, height modifiers, chin shape modifiers, nose shape modifiers, headgear modifiers, etc, to get more complex characters
15:16:08 <fizzie> The shapes my browser's choice of fonts have for SNOWMAN, SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW and BLACK SNOWMAN are all completely different. SNOWMAN is this outline, BLACK SNOWMAN is filled but still just a (different) black-and-white shape, and SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW is this coloured monstrosity.
15:16:27 <b_jonas> and perhaps with some vegetable emoji code points too to get snowman with particular vegetables used as their nose
15:17:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: perhaps the plain snowman is from smaller fonts and the others from huge fallback fonts, and perhaps one is rendered as an emoji by default and the others aren't. you could try to force the font and the emojiness if you wish.
15:18:03 <nakilon> emojis in unicode should be uninvented
15:18:27 <nakilon> unintroduced, unimplemented, burnt with fire
15:20:02 <nakilon> fizzie did you solve day 3 part 2?
15:20:59 <fizzie> I didn't touch day 3 yet (in Befunge-98). I've done days 1, 2, 5, 6 and first half of day 8.
15:20:59 <nakilon> I guess it needs rereading the stdin and so storing it
15:22:51 <fizzie> I imagine you *could* evaluate all five slopes at once as you go through it, though then you'd need to keep five counters at once (in addition to the current location).
15:23:25 <fizzie> I think for day 3 I couldn't decide whether it would be okay to use the `i` instruction or not.
15:23:50 <nakilon> how does the debugger you use look like? I see different images in google image search
15:24:11 <nakilon> I just do ...........A,@ in random places and run until it hits and halts
15:24:11 <fizzie> The thing is, I'd kind of like all the solutions to keep the same structure of just reading puzzle input from stdin, but `i` needs a file name. I could use /dev/stdin maybe.
15:26:38 <fizzie> I don't think that'd work in the implementations I've got.
15:26:43 <nakilon> I guess it's some standard for naming the stdin, didn't know about /dev/stdin
15:27:17 <fizzie> It's pretty common, yes, but it needs the program to interpret it. /dev/stdin has some chance of working even when not explicitly supported.
15:28:17 <nakilon> I just skip until the next line, then skip number of chars calculated with modulo, but the case of "down 2" would need something else
15:28:54 <nakilon> like passing the how many times you skip until newline
15:28:57 <fizzie> And I don't really have a "debugger" as such. I've been making do with `cfunge -t 10` (which just prints a trace like http://ix.io/2Ia8 out), plus that JS debugger (which has okay single-stepping and visualization, but can't do input, so it can only be used on fragments). I have a lot of ideas I'd like to see in my dream Befunge development tool (like per-cell annotations that'd be automatically shown on
15:29:03 <fizzie> a multi-line status line), but it'd take effort to implement that.
15:29:25 <fizzie> I think there's a bunch of Befunge-93 browser things, but for '98 the implementation situation seems a bit more bare.
15:29:58 <nakilon> unfortunately Ruby isn't tuned for GUI apps
15:30:07 <nakilon> I mean it has no cool libraries
15:30:38 <nakilon> only some monstrous bindings, and when someone tried to make it as simple as possible that resulted in something limited
15:30:59 <fizzie> Well, a TUI is what I'd like anyway. I've been eyeing tcell (in Go) if I do start making it.
15:31:02 <nakilon> and wxwidgets were segfaulting and then abandoned AFAIK
15:33:25 <nakilon> curses would do the job but it would also have to intercept the stdout
15:34:08 <nakilon> wouldn't be a problem though
15:35:40 <nakilon> damn, I've got so much things to do and now I want to implement the debugger, oh no...
15:35:56 -!- jess has quit (Quit: updates).
15:37:54 <fizzie> I want the playfield grid view to show cell values 32-126 as their printable ASCII counterparts, values 1-31 using the braille patterns as binary, value 0 maybe as WHITE DIAMOND and values <0 and >=127 as BLACK DIAMOND (of course showing the actual value on the status line).
15:37:59 <fizzie> And I want two rows reserved for the cell annotations shown permanently, and I'd use the top line by convention for stack annotations, and I want the enter key to switch focus between the grid and the annotation window.
15:38:04 <fizzie> And I want arrow keys to also as a side effect change the direction into which the cursor moves when you insert a character, but I also want to allow specifying a vector directly.
15:38:10 <fizzie> And I want mod-space to set a mark that can be used to define a highlighted rectangular region, which can also have other rectangles or individual cells added to or removed from, so that the arbitrarily shaped region can then be moved around or copied. Possibly rotated with automatic treatment of <>v^ too (I know some Befunge IDEs do that), though I'm a bit ambivalent about that.
15:40:31 <fizzie> And obviously I also want a single-stepping debugger that defaults the grid to a view mode, but also allows switching the grid to edit mode to tweaks, and also shows (and allows changing) the stack.
15:41:10 <fizzie> Oh, and I want the grid view section to be arbitrarily splittable to frames which each have their own origin, though can also be set to track a specific IP.
15:41:32 <nakilon> rasel would not need to display program space values since you don't write to it
15:42:05 <fizzie> BefungeSharp might be closest already existing thing to what I want, and if it wasn't Windows-only, I might even consider using it.
15:42:17 <nakilon> instead would need to display more stack values I guess
15:43:08 <fizzie> I imagine you might want something like different stack value display options, in case you often have complex data in a single value.
15:44:14 <nakilon> rationals need more space than integers, yeah
15:45:15 <nakilon> didn't use numbers with fractional parts a lot but they exist at least temporary, when you emulate multiplication
15:45:30 <fizzie> The other thing that exists is Bequnge, but I think it goes a little too far into the >2D stuff, visualizations, and sound effects. https://hatstand.github.io/Bequnge/screenshots.html
15:46:13 <fizzie> Then again, as the author of GLfunge98, which was supposed to do exactly those similar things (except I abandoned it ages ago) I shouldn't probably be allowed to criticize.
15:47:43 <fizzie> There's an HP-UX port of GLfunge98, which I find pleasantly odd.
15:48:24 <fizzie> (Huh, has it really been 20 years since I did that? Feels like just yesterday.)
15:57:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:08:08 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
16:12:59 -!- TheLie has joined.
16:17:13 <nakilon> does Cat program have to exit with 0?
16:19:25 <nakilon> but should it exit with 0 on success?
16:27:23 <b_jonas> probably. most programs should exit with 0 exit code on success, with the exception of a few programs that are specifically useful to test some condition, like test and grep
16:28:12 <int-e> b_jonas: the answer is yes. we can fit it into the framework of https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895 using a door gadget like https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/aoc.png (which makes liberal use of directed edges as explained earlier)
16:29:01 <int-e> b_jonas: the most relevant door is the blue door at the bottom (I should have highlighted it somehow); the diagram shows the open state at the top and the closed state below
16:31:05 <int-e> (updated with a bit of emphasis for the relevant door)
16:31:59 <b_jonas> int-e: ah, I didn't recall the exact conditions of that article. I'll have to re-read some of it. so apparently it's enough to have one door, one open button, and one close button linked together, rather than, say, multiple open buttons or multiple doors linked?
16:32:35 <int-e> b_jonas: yep, one path is enough. furthermore, it's okay if the open path doesn't always work
16:32:47 <int-e> so just adding a bypass like I did is okay
16:33:45 <b_jonas> I guess that part is from the earlier Sokoban article, not this one
16:36:45 <int-e> I lost track of the articles. The requirements of the door gadget can be found there anyway.
16:40:37 <int-e> (and crossover isn't needed as long as the graph is not required to be planar)
16:41:13 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but for this game we can create a crossover gadget (though it's not cheap, so in a real puzzle version you might add that and one-way doors as primitives)
16:41:27 <int-e> (but in fact we can make one with the same principle shown by the green and red doors, without the blue one)
16:41:48 <b_jonas> yes, I did say above that I can make a crossover
16:42:04 <int-e> Sorry, I didn't read, I was busy making my own gadget.
16:42:25 <b_jonas> makes sense, since I didn't say how to create a crossover
16:44:47 <int-e> b_jonas: oh wait. I should've seen it, but I skipped the middle part and focussed on the binary counter...
16:45:38 <int-e> you even mentioned directed edges there
16:45:48 <int-e> (one-way corridors)
16:49:58 <int-e> b_jonas: for puzzles though I guess you have to work actively against the fact that 2/3 of all edges are passable at any given time
16:50:00 <b_jonas> yes, those are bisimulable with one-way gadgets
16:50:51 <b_jonas> to make a one-way corridor, you can just add a one-way gadget before and a one-way gadget after; to make a one-way gadget, make a one-way edge with an irrelevant open door
16:50:52 <int-e> (So naively, I'd expect random puzzles to be very easy.)
16:51:33 <b_jonas> int-e: that would depend on how you sample random, but yes, I also figured it's not easy to just generate good puzzles randomly
16:52:09 <b_jonas> and there are too many graphs and possiblel levels to brute force search all of them for potentially interesting ones
16:53:50 <b_jonas> and adding one-ways and/or crossovers (or teleporters) as primitives doesn't change any of that
16:54:15 <b_jonas> I mean it makes making puzzles slightly easier, but it still seems hard that way
16:55:42 <b_jonas> I just defined the base game without them for simplicity and elegance
16:56:31 <b_jonas> I would add such convenience things to a real puzzle implementation, because they make the puzzle easier to understand by humans. crossovers and one-ways are natural to understand, they make the puzzle easier to learn and navigate than the corresponding constructions.
16:56:43 <int-e> okay, one more update to the png... lighter gray and I got rid of the spikes at the bottom of the ajar doors
16:57:24 <int-e> the gadget is unchanged, I think it's pretty neat as it is.
16:58:12 <b_jonas> your graphical representation is very different from what I imagine. I use a top-view map of the maze, with doors drawn as short lines (as short as a corridor) from the same top view, and with letters (and optional colors) to mark matching ones
16:58:36 <b_jonas> rather than side view doors
16:58:50 <int-e> I'm not a nethack player
16:59:06 <int-e> I think that has a huge influence :)
17:00:03 <int-e> (nor roguelikes in general, even graphical ones)
17:00:12 <b_jonas> (and also uppercasing the letter for currently ajar doors. the sequence of names of ajar doors you go through is enough to represent your solution in an easy way.)
17:02:33 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm sure you can figure out your own preferred representation :-P
17:20:21 <nakilon> caught another bug in '&' -- since it was working as reading the byte, then checking if it's a digit and then pushing it back when not, it failed if the file ends with integer instead of non-digit, such as newline
17:21:39 <nakilon> I mean not caught but found it while changing how ~ and & work; with working as trampoline instead of reversing the Cat program now does not need '#' and so is one char shorter
17:21:43 -!- LKoen has joined.
17:42:40 -!- sprocklem has joined.
17:44:24 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit).
18:03:04 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79481&oldid=79472 * Nakilon * (+69) ~ and & now work as # unless EOF
18:05:04 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79482&oldid=79481 * Nakilon * (-1) cat program is 1 char shorter with the last specification update
18:12:14 <esowiki> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79483&oldid=70772 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Simple class */ cat
18:17:44 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
18:25:12 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:57:43 -!- user24 has joined.
19:15:40 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:42:23 <oren> https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2020-December/thread.html
19:42:45 <oren> Unicode mailing list debates having italics... again
19:44:13 <myname> i think they should also add bold, underline, subscript, superscript, strikethrough and blink
19:44:34 <kmc> and every combination of those
19:44:50 <rain1> remember twhe they added emoji
19:45:40 <myname> well, blame japan for that
19:49:38 <kmc> i like emoji
19:49:38 <kmc> and i like that i can compatibly use them across multiple platforms
19:51:00 <kmc> someone near me has the vanity license plate "U1F47E" on their car
19:54:07 <nakilon> they could have no problem of compatibility at all
19:54:26 <nakilon> if they didn't use it in the first place
19:59:01 <kmc> feel free to submit a proposal for one
19:59:40 <kmc> that's a good policy
20:01:09 <nakilon> but if they implement a bad idea, I just ask why don't they implement all other bad ideas
20:12:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79484&oldid=79259 * LegionMammal978 * (+218)
20:16:20 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79485&oldid=79293 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) fix cat
20:35:11 -!- jess has joined.
20:41:20 -!- delta23 has joined.
21:01:02 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79486&oldid=73108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* See also */ cats
21:12:22 <arseniiv> <nakilon> but if they implement a bad idea, I just ask why don't they implement all other bad ideas => well, nobody has infinite resources, obviously
21:13:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
21:18:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:22:26 <zzo38> I think that Unicode is messy
21:28:12 -!- adu has joined.
21:29:47 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:49:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79487&oldid=79484 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+204) /* A4 and A5 */ new section
22:10:04 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
22:51:15 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:21:36 <fizzie> I turned on "force dark" in Chrome as a test, and our very own Wiki renders badly. :/ https://zem.fi/tmp/esodark.png
23:23:06 <fizzie> Then again, so does Wikipedia, and arguably it's even a little worse. So maybe it's Not Our Fault.
23:28:19 <fizzie> (I'm not sure what all exactly the flag does. I guess I'd just like the "prefer dark if the website has it" setting, but AFAICT maybe Chrome on Linux doesn't have that setting, since there's no standard system-wide thing. At least https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9275525?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&oco=1 just lists Mac OS and Windows.)
23:30:20 -!- TheLie has joined.
23:34:24 <fizzie> Apparently it's even got a setting for that as part of Developer Tools ("Emulate CSS media feature prefers-color-scheme" → dark), but not something you could just turn on.
23:38:56 <fizzie> Oh, turns out there's a command-line flag. Well, better than nothing.
23:50:52 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
00:30:49 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:53:39 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79488&oldid=79482 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Hello, World! */ rm redirect
01:00:03 -!- imode has joined.
01:06:05 <esowiki> [[Geo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79489&oldid=53330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) Unpipe
01:07:18 <esowiki> [[Scan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79490&oldid=53334 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) unpipe ; hd
01:13:56 <esowiki> [[SON-OF-UNBABTIZED]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79491&oldid=38964 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5545) Obligatory sample code
01:17:22 <zzo38> Does the dark mode work for web pages without any CSS specified, or with CSS specified but no colours specified?
01:18:33 <esowiki> [[PUSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79492&oldid=78838 * Expliked * (+4)
01:26:51 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined.
01:28:11 <LegionMammal978> zzo38: In Flipfractal, what happens when you hit an entry-point character from something other than its opposing direction?
01:29:08 <LegionMammal978> E.g., if I enter a V going right, do I exit the + in the parent program going right or going up?
01:29:44 <V> I would not recommend that
01:30:11 <V> Seems needlessly painful
01:33:10 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79493&oldid=72568 * CatIsFluffy * (+23) done
01:35:05 <shikhin> What is the less painful way of entering a V?
01:35:22 <V> shikhin: from the back
01:35:32 <V> or the front, depending on taste
01:35:59 <LegionMammal978> Wait a second, that page was only saying you were the one who created Memfractal, it was worded confusingly
01:36:16 <V> shikhin: look, I chose not to say it, but you chose to ask
01:36:30 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:36:46 <V> Looks like we've scared them off
01:46:58 <zzo38> LegionMammal978: I did not invent Flipfractal, and yes I agree it is worded confusingly.
01:50:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:50:21 <ais523> shachaf: zzo38: there is apparently an unofficial standard for gopher over TLS
01:50:33 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:50:45 <ais523> it is very simple, too: you just make a TLS connection on port 70
01:51:07 <ais523> (a gophers server distinguishes between gopher-over-TLS and regular gopher by checking to see whether the first thing the client sends is a TLS handshake)
01:51:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:51:52 <shachaf> What's the thing with TLS where the server must identify all the domain names it possibly knows about and then the client checks whether it matches?
01:51:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
01:52:02 <shachaf> Rather than the cient saying what domain name it thinks it's accessing.
01:52:43 <ais523> sounds like one of the many variants of SNI
01:52:53 <shachaf> TCP is presumably just a dead end if you want efficient networking protocols.
01:53:03 <ais523> the basic problem is that in most TLS connections, the server name indication is sent in the clear, so anyone listening in knows what site you're connecting
01:53:10 <ais523> and there have been various proposals to remedy that
01:53:32 <shachaf> With TLS being one of the reasons.
01:53:48 <shachaf> Hmm, I see, so eavesdroppers know whether I'm connecting to youtube.com vs. google.com or something.
01:53:59 <ais523> the basic problem is that it's hard to deploy anything like this at a small scale, because with a small hosting company, you can normally figure out which site is being connected to simply from the IP
01:54:09 <shachaf> I guess you might want to keep that information secret, especially with DNS becoming encrypted these days.
01:54:20 <ais523> so in order to really keep it private, you need a wide range of different sites that are all hosted from the same IP so people aren't sure which is which
01:54:42 <ais523> Cloudflare apparently added some sort of encrypted SNI recently, because they have the right sort of infrastructure for that
01:55:42 <ais523> I'm a little surprised that gopher is still being developed nowadays (at least, within the last couple of years)
01:56:01 <ais523> but apparently some people like it due to the lack of things like JavaScript-based adverts because the protocol can't handle them
01:56:41 <shachaf> Gophers are OK but kitty cats are where it's at, if you ask me.
01:57:11 <zzo38> I think that the web browser is the wrong place to implement encrypted DNS, since DNS is something that you will want many programs to use, not only the web browser.
01:57:15 <ais523> well, cat has even fewer features than gopher
01:57:50 <shachaf> Is QUIC a good alternative to TCP?
01:59:23 <ais523> one issue I've discovered with TCP is that in practice, you seem to need to duplicate a lot of TCP functionality to get reliable connections even when you're using TCP
01:59:32 <ais523> in real life, TCP connections have a tendency to break for no reason
01:59:37 <ais523> this somehow even happens on localhost
02:00:20 <ais523> using TLS over TCP increases the frequency at which this happens, but probably just because more data is sent
02:01:27 <ais523> oh, an idea I had recently: an equivalent of HTTP headers but for files on a filesystem (e.g. in the directory entry for a file)
02:01:41 <ais523> it struck me that HTTP headers are already a widely used standard for file metadata
02:02:42 <zzo38> Actually, my "httpdirlist" format is similar, using the same format of HTTP headers to make a directory listing format for use with HTTP, with blank lines separating directory entries.
02:03:42 <ais523> it strikes me as something of a security hole that I can't just put a file in a directory that a web browser serves, and know for certain that it won't get misinterpreted in a format I don't expect and that happens to do something malicious
02:03:47 <zzo38> Perhaps having a file in that format might also be helpful for loading "file:" URLs in a web browser, so that it can know the MIME type of each file.
02:04:06 <ais523> (e.g. there was an incident on #esoteric a while ago where someone managed a successful XSS attacks against the raw log files, even though they're plaintext)
02:06:31 <zzo38> Yes, but you should fix the HTTP server to specify the correct MIME type, presumably always text/plain for the raw log files
02:06:59 <ais523> yes, but some browsers will override the MIME type if it appears to be wrong
02:08:02 <ais523> nowadays there is «X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff» which tells the browser that the MIME type is correct and should not be changed
02:09:13 <zzo38> Use that, then, although I should think that the web browser should never override the MIME type specified by the server unless the user explicitly specifies a different MIME type
02:11:24 <ais523> apparently this option is not respected by IE < 8
02:11:36 <ais523> so there would still be a potential for XSS attacks against plaintext files on IE7 and earlier
02:11:38 <ais523> (does anyone still use those?)
02:16:34 <shachaf> ais523: What about HFS forks?
02:18:05 <ais523> shachaf: Mac filesystems have something similar to the HTTP idea I had
02:18:20 <ais523> but, I think they used something proprietary to specify file types, not MIME
02:18:25 <ais523> back when I last looked
02:18:28 <ais523> maybe they're using MIME nowadays
02:20:48 <ais523> oh wow, now I'm reading about CORB
02:21:36 <ais523> the basic idea is that there are only a few types of thing that can be included into a web page via a cross-origin request, such as scripts and images
02:22:18 <ais523> so if a web page tries to make a cross-origin request using <img> or <script> or whatever, but it starts with a character sequence that can't possibly start a valid image or script or the like, you stop reading so that the information doesn't end up in your process's memory
02:23:12 <ais523> but the spec is so concerned about not breaking backwards compatibility that it starts getting worried about things ilke polyglots, and CSS files that start with closing brackets (apparently not banned by the spec even though it's useless_
02:24:31 <fizzie> I think we definitely set X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff for the HackEso repo browsing.
02:24:33 <esowiki> [[NUMPAD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79494&oldid=30469 * LegionMammal978 * (+96) /* External resources */ fixed links
02:24:49 <ais523> I think we changed that after the attack succeeded, yes
02:25:17 <fizzie> That's always been the default for fshg, and I think I at least tried to configure it like that very early on for the tmp.
02:25:24 <fizzie> Logfiles, I'm less sure about.
02:26:22 <fizzie> (Is that thing down again? Stalker mode breaks it annoyingly often.)
02:26:53 <shachaf> Isn't tmp from last year or something?
02:27:02 <shachaf> `` doat | grep `mkdir tmp`
02:27:07 <HackEso> Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERNS [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
02:27:11 <shachaf> `` doat | grep 'mkdir tmp'
02:27:16 <HackEso> 9600:2016-11-02 <shachäf> ` rm tmp; mkdir tmp
02:27:39 <HackEso> 8116:2016-05-24 <shachäf> ` echo ignored > .hgignore \ 8117:2016-05-24 <shachäf> ` rm ignored .hgignore \ 8118:2016-05-24 <shachäf> ` echo ishare > .hgignore \ 8120:2016-05-24 <shachäf> ` mv ishare ignored; echo ignored > .hgignore \ 8121:2016-05-24 <shachäf> ` echo $\'syntax: regexp\\n.*\' > .hgignore \ 8129:2016-05-25 <fizzïe> ` echo \'^tmp/\' > .hgignore # kablam? \ 9592:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` echo ^canary >> .hgignore \ 9594
02:28:07 <ais523> <fizzie> (Is that thing down again? Stalker mode breaks it annoyingly often.) ← I'm getting a 502 trying to read the logs directory, and currently have a stalker mode tab open
02:28:29 <fizzie> You get the 502 when I restart it.
02:28:42 <fizzie> And I imagine it's your tab that keeps breaking it, not that it's your fault.
02:28:52 <ais523> do you want me to close the tab?
02:29:16 <fizzie> We'll see if it stays up for longer.
02:29:23 <fizzie> I mean, if you don't mind. There's either a bug in CivetWeb's websocket support, or in how I use it.
02:29:35 <fizzie> But I couldn't figure out how I'd be using it wrong from the (poor) documentation.
02:29:40 <shachaf> This is a pomegranate. Do you like this?
02:30:49 <ais523> I did a GET /logs/2020-12-18-raw.txt HTTP/1.1 over telnet
02:31:09 <ais523> and the response contained Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8, but no X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff
02:31:12 <fizzie> I did a curl -I on it.
02:31:24 <fizzie> Yeah, didn't think we did it on that, just the repo-browsing.
02:31:26 <ais523> just Server, Date, Content-Type, Transfer-Encoding, and Connection
02:31:43 <fizzie> Incidentally, those "raw" logs aren't actually the "native" raw logs, I just generate that format since it's the ad-hoc standard now.
02:32:07 <ais523> they don't look nearly as HTMLish as the parsed logs
02:32:18 <ais523> so I guess you'd have to spam a lot of HTML tags just after midnight in order to mount an attack
02:33:08 <fizzie> It does start with a "tag" thanks to the <> direction indicators.
02:33:17 <fizzie> Though a pretty weird tag.
02:34:04 <fizzie> Hmm, I thought I had an endpoint for the actual raw logs too, but apparently not.
02:37:21 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:37:57 <ais523> and after reading through some more: apparently X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff isn't always respected because apparently Cloudflare sometimes adds it automatically in cases where the MIME type is actually wrong
02:38:15 <ais523> so browsers are now having to second-guess the statement that the MIME type is correct…
02:39:43 <ais523> one project I'm currently working on is a "safe" subset of HTML (the idea is that you specify an HTML page as a data structure, run it through the generator, and get some HTML that you know cannot be malicious because it was written in a subset that doesn't support any misusable features)
02:40:10 <ais523> but I'm not sure if there's any way to even handle hyperlinks in something like this
02:53:18 <b_jonas> "< ais523> one issue I've discovered with TCP is that in practice, you seem to need to duplicate a lot of TCP functionality to get reliable connections even when you're using TCP" => I think there was a proposal to solve that, with a middle-level protocol that looks sort of like TCP for the programs using it but does a bit more, especially being able to reestablish the connection if the client's IP
02:53:24 <b_jonas> changes, aimed mostly for mobile phones.
02:54:15 <fizzie> A friend of mine did some work/research on HIP back in the university days, I think.
02:54:44 <fizzie> That's got a mobility thing in it.
02:57:43 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Incidentally, those "raw" logs aren't actually the "native" raw logs, I just generate that format since it's the ad-hoc standard now." => makes sense, given that you backfill logs when your log bot wasn't connected to the channel from other log sources
02:58:56 <fizzie> There's that, too. Though one of those sources *is* the raw logs from codu, where I got that format from.
02:59:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see. that only applies to before 2016, right?
03:00:31 <fizzie> Yeah. The other source I have a backfill converter is just my personal logs.
03:03:46 -!- also_uplime has quit (Quit: quit).
03:04:03 -!- uplime has joined.
05:34:40 * int-e grumbles about reading comprehension
05:52:18 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
05:53:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:08:47 <int-e> b_jonas: btw I realized that the door gadget can be reduced to... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/aoc2.png
06:10:34 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Quit: quit).
06:11:10 <int-e> b_jonas: The new semi-open state looks dangerous because it blocks off the 'close' path. However, we can only get into this situation by using the 'open' path without actually using the door... so if we end up in that situation, we can backtrack and bypass the 'open' pass completely.
06:17:32 <shachaf> Oh no, I accidentally solved today's well-ordering theorem problem.
06:17:42 <shachaf> People were talking about precedence parsers so I couldn't resist.
06:18:12 <shachaf> But I don't have an account so I can't really confirm it.
06:18:30 <int-e> So you didn't get to the great twist in part 2
06:18:53 <shachaf> Is the twist that + is stickier than *?
06:19:08 <shachaf> It was a 2-character change in my parser.
06:19:19 <shachaf> I mean, assuming it's correct, which I didn't test.
06:19:58 <shachaf> Does it give the last test case the value 23340?
06:20:41 <int-e> I skipped the description, wondered why my answer was wrong, then realized that if those were standard expressions, I should've fed them into something like bc instead, then read the problem properly...
06:21:27 <int-e> And to top it off I messed up the change for part 2.
06:21:38 <int-e> It wasn't a good performance today.
06:22:16 <int-e> 23340 seems to be correct
06:22:52 <int-e> I did not have any recent practice writing expression parsers.
06:24:02 <shachaf> It's too bad almost everything people write about precedence parsers is way too complicated.
06:24:07 <int-e> But the main failing was to assume too much rather than reading the damn specification.
06:24:32 <shachaf> For example the Wikipedia example code has nested loops for no reason.
06:26:01 <int-e> I decided to use parsec which annoyingly, makes left recursion hard. And while it has dedicated expression parser functionality that basically just takes a list of operators and their precedence and associativity, I didn't want to read up on that on the spot.
06:26:50 <int-e> This stuff: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsec-3.1.14.0/docs/Text-Parsec-Expr.html
06:27:13 <shachaf> I wrote a C parser: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/pa.c
06:30:30 -!- arseniiv has joined.
06:45:50 <int-e> shachaf: well I'd habitually split the parse function up in one per precedence
06:46:17 <shachaf> But this approach ("precedence climbing") is way better.
06:47:14 <int-e> but you're arguing against a habit
06:48:41 <int-e> only 8.3GB free...
07:21:26 -!- rain1 has joined.
08:14:33 -!- sprocklem has joined.
08:23:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:55:48 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
08:56:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:40:21 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:04:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot).
10:23:30 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
10:27:51 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
10:33:09 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:50:22 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:22:00 -!- reformatories has joined.
12:57:47 -!- rain1 has joined.
12:58:07 <fizzie> I just wrote a regular handcrafted recursive-descent thing in Go, which (because of all the explicit `if err != nil { return nil, err }` business, which I guess in this context could've just been omitted) ended up annoyingly verbose.
12:58:25 <fizzie> Also did read the description, but still managed to get part 2 the wrong way around first.
13:25:24 <esowiki> [[FFM/FFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79495&oldid=52386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-204) FSMs aren't TC (see https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/16315/difference-between-a-turing-machine-and-a-finite-state-machine#:~:text=A%20finite%2Dstate%20machine%20is,moves%20from%20left%20to%20right.&text=Because%20finite%20states%20machines%20are,L%20can't%20b
13:29:10 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:43:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Proof 001]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79496 * Hakerh400 * (+4138) Proof 001
13:43:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79497&oldid=79306 * Hakerh400 * (+50)
13:47:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Proof 001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79498&oldid=79496 * Hakerh400 * (+4)
13:49:24 -!- delta23 has joined.
14:15:35 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:23:25 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:25:57 -!- delta23 has joined.
14:26:09 <b_jonas> fungot, how do you spell Mississippi and how do you know your keyboard isn't broken when you do that?
14:26:09 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i would like to thank you again for your support. i ask you, commissioner. we propose that this oral question.
14:27:03 <int-e> how do you know your keyboard isn't broken?
14:27:35 <int-e> there are keys on there that I hardly ever use
14:28:31 <int-e> and that's just the tip of the iceberg. it could insert an extra 's' whenever I type 'lawlessnesss' and I'd probably never know :P
14:29:27 <int-e> just imagine such a device, a keyboard that inserts plausible typos whenever a person starts typing quickly
14:30:37 <fizzie> There are all these different lawlessnesses.
14:31:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:33:25 <fizzie> On that note, there's a Twitter account, @CrimeADay, which tweets a new (US) federal crime a day. I liked the one from the other day: "43 USC §1733 & 43 CFR §6302.20(e) make it a federal crime to pick someone up from a federal wilderness area using a hot air balloon."
14:33:49 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:45:54 -!- LKoen has joined.
15:03:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:10:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:00:47 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:02:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:04:07 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:05:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:37:47 -!- reformatories has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:42:22 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:47:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
17:00:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
17:01:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
17:02:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
17:04:27 -!- LKoen has joined.
17:49:47 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:56:05 -!- LKoen has joined.
17:56:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:27:54 <b_jonas> fungot, are high seas supported by mountains? or do they just float in air?
18:27:54 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, commissioner, and i will end with a good report.
18:38:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:43:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
18:54:17 -!- imode has joined.
19:07:47 <fizzie> fungot: But where's that report?
19:07:47 <fungot> fizzie: may i thank mr langen who is continuing the work of european integration: the economic reasoning behind him. the loss of biodiversity by 2010. together with the european taxpayers, who obtain better value for money in the reserve and not to the media and sport contains a number of negative points, like almost everything else the autocrat in minsk eschews no means of independent defence against the inertia, prejudices, a
19:08:16 <fizzie> fungot: Does Mr Langen have a copy of the report?
19:08:17 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, kyoto was a great success, in the natural environment, much of which i am entitled to say that these amendments will also have to inquire into the difficulties of the phare programme and by commissioning other studies. of course, primarily a task of the executive powers of the court of justice submitted videos and other documentation to prove this morality, of which 14 have been included, and it would make
19:58:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:59:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
20:13:58 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:28:18 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
20:36:27 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:52:11 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
21:05:16 <esowiki> [[UClang*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79499&oldid=79279 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Instructions */ Slight reword
21:32:21 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:01:50 <fizzie> Is there a concise name for that search where you have a function from the naturals, you know it has some property that's true (only) for all n >= N0, and you want to find out what N0 is, so you evaluate the function on 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, ... until you have a pair where it's false for K but true for 2K, and then do a binary search in that range to find the exact value?
22:01:55 <fizzie> It's not *just* a binary search, but it's not much more either.
22:03:42 -!- Frater_EST has joined.
22:09:38 <zzo38> Do you have an example?
22:12:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: good question, I don't know
22:13:59 <rain1> exponential search
22:20:26 <shachaf> You can use any fast-growing function to find the upper bound presumably, there's no special reason for it to be doubling, right?
22:21:04 <fizzie> Presumably. Though if you're going to use a binary search for the second part, it feels natural somehow.
22:21:10 <fizzie> First you double, then you halve.
22:23:52 <rain1> doubling is the best
22:26:51 <fizzie> The Wikipedia article suggests as a variation a three-stage thing, where you start first by doubling the *exponent*, then do a binary search on the exponent to find the right interval, and then a binary search in the interval.
22:27:05 <fizzie> (And the obvious generalization from that.)
22:28:10 <b_jonas> there's always a function that you could use that grows faster than what you're using
22:28:36 <rain1> is there always one that grows slower? fib grows slower than doubling
22:28:39 <rain1> but what grows slower than fib?
22:28:43 <shachaf> Presumably in many practical applications you just do know an upper bound, like 2^64.
22:29:11 <shachaf> I guess you can call that "exponential search but starting with a high initial guess" to make it also theoretically complete.
22:32:47 -!- Frater_EST has left.
22:35:00 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:35:36 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:36:47 <shachaf> Or mayeb the argument is that the upper bound is often small, like 8, and you can save searches over log n by finding it sooner.
22:43:18 <rain1> log(n) tends to infinity
22:57:27 <nakilon> fizzie maybe I misread but maybe it's a Newton method
22:57:38 <nakilon> of finding where two lines intersect
22:58:17 <nakilon> it splits in half, and it's basically that "guess the number" game
23:00:31 <nakilon> or maybe I don't have a clue
23:02:35 <rain1> it is the bisection method, but newton applied the derivative to make it faster
23:09:09 -!- Lykaina has joined.
23:09:45 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
23:10:08 <Lykaina> how esoteric is this: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/helloworld.txt
23:10:54 <Lykaina> reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop6a-arduino.pdf
23:11:49 <imode> looks like intel hex stuff.
23:14:28 <kmc> looks like a little bytecode for arduino?
23:16:30 <Lykaina> it doesn't require an external parser or a hex editor, unlike earlier attempts
23:17:20 <kmc> I started playing with CircuitPython
23:17:38 <Lykaina> what you see in the txt file is what is on the sd card
23:17:48 <kmc> it's a neat concept, you can edit the .py file right on your embedded target (which appears as a mass storage device) and it runs the new code immediately
23:17:52 <kmc> so there's no host-side dev tools needed
23:18:19 <kmc> but the one circuitpython device I own does some kind of crazy things, it seems to try to be a keyboard and messes with my keyboard layout, among other issues
23:18:22 <imode> so do you have an interpreter running on the arduino.
23:18:44 <kmc> so I probably need to tweak the default firmware/script before I have some pleasing experience with CircuitPython
23:18:48 * imode needs to get an ardunio so they have an AVR target.
23:19:28 <Lykaina> 39 commands are recognized at the moment
23:19:30 <imode> kmc: huh, this looks interesting... it doesn't run Python directly on the MCU, right?
23:19:40 <imode> it just emits code for it.
23:19:43 <kmc> no it does
23:19:55 <imode> that's gotta be limiting.
23:19:56 <kmc> they have some stripped down Python interpreter that runs on ARM Cortex-M and maybe some other CPUs
23:20:01 <kmc> not sure if there's any for AVR
23:20:11 <kmc> yes, it is limiting
23:21:10 <kmc> it's made to be a really easy way to get started with MCU programming
23:21:17 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:21:22 <kmc> so in that respect I'm not the target audience, but i thought it'd be fun to play with anyway
23:22:32 <Lykaina> my echidna languages are pretty useless
23:22:42 <kmc> Cortex-M MCUs are about as cheap as AVR these days
23:22:52 <imode> I need an AVR target for Feather.
23:24:43 <kmc> most of the embedded stuff i've done lately has been ESP8266
23:24:53 <kmc> but it's quite limited on the hardware peripherals side
23:24:58 <kmc> I might get into ESP32
23:25:08 <kmc> there's a new variant of ESP32 which has a RISC-V core
23:25:13 <kmc> could probably run Rust on that
23:25:33 <nakilon> there should be a brainfuck interpreter for arduino robot
23:25:37 <Lykaina> is there a subset of c i could write an arduino interpreter for?
23:25:46 <nakilon> that would go left and right on the line
23:25:52 <kmc> nakilon: :D
23:25:56 <imode> Lykaina: go further and write a forth.
23:25:58 <nakilon> dropping stuff onto drawn cells on it
23:26:05 <kmc> (the previous ESP's use Xtensa architecture which doesn't have a mature / working LLVM target)
23:26:26 <imode> you didn't know C either.
23:26:43 <kmc> Lykaina: C isn't usually interpreted, but it's not to say nobody's ever written an interpreter for it
23:26:56 <kmc> from a quick search https://github.com/jpoirier/picoc might be of interest
23:27:03 <nakilon> if you make arduino robot turn in place you can make a befunge interpreter
23:27:22 <nakilon> need a camera reading the cells from the ground
23:27:38 <kmc> for that matter you could probably fit a minimal C *compiler* and dynamic loader on AVR
23:27:45 <kmc> I men, it was originally developed for PDP-11
23:27:58 <imode> people often forget that.
23:28:03 <imode> for better or worse.
23:29:21 <imode> also re: brainfuck, I implemented a BF DSL in my language. line 365 and 374. https://hastebin.com/kehapukuxa.txt
23:29:23 <kmc> one issue, AVR is a Harvard architecture, you can't execute code directly from RAM
23:29:37 <kmc> but there are special instructions you can use to write to flash
23:29:48 <kmc> which are used for example by the Arduino bootloader
23:30:04 <nakilon> so there are 55 commands in rasel, including 35 that encode numbers
23:30:13 <nakilon> it's 4 levels or R + G + B
23:30:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:31:37 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:58 <Lykaina> what's rasel designed for?
23:32:54 <kmc> I wouldn't choose to write an embedded C interpreter though; I don't really like C syntax and it's harder to parse than it needs to be
23:33:12 <kmc> I don't mind writing C but if I'm implementing a C-like language from scratch and don't need C compatibility then I'd probably choose a simpler syntax
23:33:18 <Lykaina> how easy is it to write a forth interpreter?
23:33:28 <imode> pretty easy. you can write one in a weekend.
23:33:45 <imode> feather is even simpler, but it ain't ready.
23:34:09 <imode> forth is typically used to bootstrap systems that don't have a C compiler yet.
23:34:14 <imode> very easy to bring up in just assembly.
23:37:30 <kmc> other good choices for an embedded interpreted language would be scheme and lua
23:38:04 <kmc> maybe i should port qoppa to AVR some day. that could be amusing
23:38:09 <imode> scheme is always fun. garbage collection, though.
23:38:49 <imode> thaaat's actually I why I want an AVR target. feather (my lang) has no garbage collection. everything is copy on write.
23:38:50 <kmc> I'm not sure how CircuitPython handles garbage collection
23:39:02 <imode> 's all lispy and shit.
23:39:05 <Lykaina> when i write for arduino, i write in arduino's subset of c++
23:39:07 <kmc> refcounted?
23:39:20 <imode> nope. reference chains.
23:39:24 <kmc> what do you mean by Arduino's subset exactly?
23:39:30 <Lykaina> any interpreter has to be written in that
23:39:56 <b_jonas> what character encoding encodes è or maybe é as 0xC8 and ö or maybe ő or something similar as 0x96? I'm trying to figure out in what exact way the encoding of this webpage is mangled
23:40:04 <kmc> I think they use a standard g++ (with some minimal extra preprocessing) and any C++ constructs are supported
23:40:56 <kmc> i've definitely used stuff like templates and lambdas in arduino code
23:41:07 <kmc> even if these are not exactly common in arduino code written by others, they are fully supported
23:41:16 <imode> if you duplicate a giant list, for example, you're just taking a reference to it. all references to a particular thing are tied together as a doubly linked list, allowing us to move and shift stuff around without actually copying.
23:41:28 <kmc> actually there were lambdas in the esp8266 example code I found since it's a pretty convenient way to write small web server callbacks
23:42:30 <kmc> C++ has a lot of features that are considered advanced / high-level but also have no runtime overhead, making them suitable for embedded programming
23:42:47 <kmc> the idea that embedded programming needs to be austere, repetitive C code and free of any elegant, powerful abstractions kind of annoys me
23:42:53 <kmc> but it's the industry standard
23:43:09 <imode> so if you do `[ giant-list-generator ! ] 100 while dup not-zero? do save dup recall end`, which generates a giant list, dups it 100 times, you'll have 100 copies of that thing sitting around in memory unless you try to modify it. and modifying it usually just means adding stuff to it.
23:43:18 <kmc> as for Arduino libraries many of them use C++ features in annoying ways
23:43:24 <kmc> such as rampant unprincipled use of overloading
23:43:38 <kmc> oh if you call the constructor with 2 ints then it's a I2C bus but if you call with 4 ints then it's a SPI bus!!
23:43:43 <kmc> great API, guys
23:43:57 <imode> yeeeeeah.. there's so much room for surprise in that.
23:44:14 <imode> C++ sucks in that regard.
23:46:15 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
00:53:34 <Lykaina> echidna reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop6b-arduino.pdf (only has 256 bytes of accessable memory)
00:53:56 <Lykaina> echidna example: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/helloworld.txt
01:50:31 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:53:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:53:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
01:53:30 <Lykaina> https://wiki.forth-ev.de/doku.php/projects:430eforth:start#arduino_uno_und_arduino_nano
01:55:15 <kmc> Lykaina: does your echidna have digital IO too or only analog read?
01:56:45 <Lykaina> i haven't implemented digital read yet
01:57:18 <Lykaina> and the url is for someone else's project that i'm playing with
02:25:32 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:26:07 -!- uplime has joined.
02:35:29 <Lykaina> kmc: the echidna is currently in an "Arduino Leonardo R3" with an Ethernet/SD Shield
02:37:02 <kmc> i haven't played with any of the ethernet stuff
02:37:19 <kmc> most of my embedded projects recently have been with ESP8266 and using wifi
02:37:37 <kmc> I made a mushroom spawn incubator, a dual-probe pasteurization thermometer and an automated plant growing chamber
02:37:59 <Lykaina> eforth_328 is on an "Arduino Uno R3" clone
02:39:36 <Lykaina> well, the eforth_328 sketch
02:42:20 <Lykaina> how does one type hello world in a FORTH shell?
02:49:22 <shachaf> whoa, stacking a log on top of another log
02:50:48 <b_jonas> Lykaina: you go to http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code , it ha a lot of example programs in lots of languages, it's bound to have a hello world in Forth,
02:50:54 <b_jonas> and then you type that in and hope it works
02:51:21 <b_jonas> Lykaina: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Forth
02:51:43 <b_jonas> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Hello_world/Text#Forth
03:02:56 <Lykaina> echidna only has 256 bytes of memory. ugh
03:03:28 <imode> why only 256 bytes?
03:03:59 <Lykaina> it has to do with indirect addressing
03:05:11 <Lykaina> has to be a value 2^n, where n is whole and n is the amount of bits in a unit
03:07:07 <imode> where'd you get 2048 from.
03:07:10 <Lykaina> arduino uno has max mem of 2048
03:07:13 <imode> and why are you multiplying that by 2.
03:07:37 <Lykaina> arduino leo has max mem of 2536
03:07:55 <imode> okay.. so why not have (2048 - interpreter-overhead) bytes available.
03:07:55 <Lykaina> arduino mega2560 has max mem of 8192
03:08:29 <imode> you can very easily indirectly address every one of those by taking two bytes as a 16 bit pointer.
03:08:32 <Lykaina> because of how echidna works
03:08:41 <imode> okay but you made it work like that. :P
03:11:06 <imode> you could also very easily use a constant offset from 256.
03:16:32 <kmc> in AVR the registers are mapped as the first 32 bytes of RAM
03:22:22 <Lykaina> i'm adding 512 bytes of "extended memory" to it.
03:22:52 <shachaf> int-e: Wow, this puzzle was sneaky. You had to interact with the other island in a tricky way.
03:24:46 <shachaf> So now I've unfogged all the islands around the flamingo, but I still haven't gotten to that one.
03:24:51 <shachaf> Also I found another snowman, also unreachable.
03:35:25 <kmc> i wonder if it would be fun to build an 80s style microcomputer "from scratch" one day
03:40:43 <kmc> maybe a Galaksija
03:44:37 <Lykaina> echidna reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop6c-arduino.pdf (256 bytes of main memory, 512 bytes of extended memory)
03:47:07 <Lykaina> can't increase the arrays any more
03:50:53 <Lykaina> kmc: they still sell 8051s
03:55:38 <kmc> people are still designing new chips with 8051 ISA
03:56:09 <kmc> you can get an 8051 with PCIe Gen 3 and USB 3.1 support
03:56:10 <kmc> https://twitter.com/whitequark/status/1285255728333303811
03:59:20 <Lykaina> does the 8051 have the opcodes to handle those?
03:59:23 <kmc> > MCS-51 based microcontrollers have been adapted to extreme environments. Examples for high-temperature variants are the Tekmos TK8H51 family for −40 °C to +250 °C[7] or the Honeywell HT83C51 for −55 °C to +225 °C (with operation for up to 1 year at +300 °C).
03:59:26 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
03:59:51 <kmc> Lykaina: I would assume they are memory-mapped peripherals, and therefore need no special opcodes
04:01:59 <Lykaina> arduinos have such small ram
04:02:06 <kmc> and in that application (a NVMe to USB 3.0 bridge, which btw I own and have used) I would guess that the two peripherals transfer data directly between them, bypassing the CPU core
04:03:00 <kmc> so the core can be something pretty slow and simple, just to handle all the protocol negotiation nonsense on both ends
04:05:09 <Lykaina> what chips do they use on the space station?
04:05:39 <imode> probably radiation hardened x86 stuff.
04:05:47 <kmc> if you want something more powerful look at the "blue pill" generic STM32 boards
04:06:37 <kmc> has a 32-bit Cortex-M3 (STM32F103C8) with 72 MHz and 64 KB of RAM
04:06:45 <kmc> and costs only a few dollars
04:07:09 <kmc> also has native USB support and other neat stuff the ATmega328 doesn't
04:07:20 <kmc> and you can program them from the Arduino IDE once appropriately set up
04:09:55 <kmc> i'm talking about this kind of deal https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32525208361.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.b90e4c10u0JKMx&algo_pvid=337d38c5-6038-4692-b4eb-498501756316&algo_expid=337d38c5-6038-4692-b4eb-498501756316-0&btsid=0bb0623d16083509557698562e97c5&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
04:10:27 <kmc> it's a no brand china thing
04:11:15 <kmc> you'll want a ST-Link to program them, at least to get the USB bootloader on them
04:11:22 <kmc> but a knockoff ST-Link is also only a few dollars
04:12:02 <kmc> https://predictabledesigns.com/introduction-stm32-blue-pill-stm32duino/
04:37:01 <Lykaina> considering getting a arduino due clone with holiday money
04:51:22 <kmc> how much money?
04:52:36 <kmc> I have a STM32F4 Discovery board, as well
04:52:46 <kmc> it's not hardware-compatible with Arduino shields
04:52:54 <kmc> but I believe you can program it from the IDE https://github.com/ChrisMicro/Arduino_STM32F4_Discovery
04:53:35 <kmc> and it has some cool things on board
04:53:50 <kmc> and it includes the ST-Link too
04:54:23 <kmc> you can do real debugging thru that
04:54:35 <kmc> single step code, investigate memory from a gdb process running on your dev machine
04:56:17 <kmc> that's pretty neat
04:56:24 <kmc> and was very useful when i was trying to get rust code to run on it
04:56:36 <kmc> a mix of C and Rust actually
04:56:53 <kmc> I had Rust code calling into libsodium (a C library) which was calling back into Rust code which was invoking the hardware RNG
04:57:05 <kmc> and investigating crashes that occured before any of that code ran, before even main ran
04:57:14 <kmc> which i eventually tracked down to a bad linker script
04:57:50 <kmc> that's not bad
04:59:22 <Lykaina> i ordered something only for a chip i didn't have by accident
04:59:49 <Lykaina> successfully cancelled the order
05:00:46 <Lykaina> now, if it was for the chip i have...it would havemade it a lot easier to use
05:00:57 <kmc> the only thing that really annoys me about the STM32F4 Discovery
05:01:21 <kmc> is that they use micro-USB for the MCU's USB port, but mini-USB for the ST-Link programmer port
05:01:24 <kmc> like whyyyy
05:02:52 <kmc> at this point i'm always annoyed when I encounter mini-USB but especially both on the same device!!
05:04:40 <Lykaina> considering creating code for echidna for ethernet
05:05:17 <Lykaina> cause i'm using an ethernet shield for sdcard
05:06:46 <kmc> seems neat
05:06:55 <kmc> you could write an IRC bot and have it connect here!!
05:08:11 <Lykaina> not sure if echidna is powerful enough
05:09:51 <Lykaina> must have gotten reaped due to inactivity
05:10:59 <kmc> IRC is a pretty simple protocol
05:11:19 <kmc> do you have any particular design goals with echidna?
05:12:49 <kmc> I got it :)
05:13:58 <Lykaina> i can finally type plain text code onto the sd card
05:14:20 <Lykaina> first version of echidna to do that
05:14:23 <zzo38> IRC is good, it even is designed it can work even without any specialized software, and even it does (although using IRC software works better, so that you can do auto-pong and other stuff)
05:15:32 <Lykaina> yeah, i'll have to have it checking for ping every second
05:15:51 <kmc> Lykaina: oh, was it a compiled bytecode before?
05:19:09 <Lykaina> sub,cmd[,flag1arg1[,flag2arg2[,flag3arg3[,flag4arg4]]]];
05:20:23 <Lykaina> instead of loops, it has "repeat sub" conditionals
05:21:55 <Lykaina> currently, max of 255 subs and recursion of 32
05:24:29 <Lykaina> it takes each sub+command+args and converts it into a 10-byte array
05:25:38 <Lykaina> to the command executing code
05:27:44 <Lykaina> conditional gosub, redo sub, and return from sub commands
05:30:49 <Lykaina> i also have copy/store, swap, simple 8-bit uint math, runtime in ms, delay in ms, and random
05:32:29 <Lykaina> also, the ability to measure analog inputs, serial in and out, and extended memory get and put.
05:33:29 <Lykaina> "m" args refer to memory addresses, direct or indirect
05:33:59 <Lykaina> "p" args refer to memory addresses, direct or indirect, and also literals
05:34:36 <Lykaina> kmc: what did i miss that is needed?
05:38:01 <kmc> what's redo sub?
05:38:30 <Lykaina> loops to the start of the sub
05:39:42 <Lykaina> if mem[0] == mem[1] then continue execution at beginning of sub
05:40:44 <Lykaina> the conditions i use are: equal, less than, and not equal
05:41:11 <Lykaina> greater than can be formed from less than
05:42:46 <Lykaina> memory is in unsigned 8-bit integers
05:44:10 <Lykaina> crap, i don't have "carry add" and "borrow sub"
05:46:55 <Lykaina> and division is integer division
05:49:13 <Lykaina> wait a sec...multiplication is mod 256?
05:50:19 <Lykaina> i get the feeling i'm realizing problems on my own
05:55:45 <Lykaina> the subtraction used is mod 256
06:01:57 <int-e> shachaf: there's a bit of that on the path to victory
06:02:13 <int-e> ^8ball do we like CFGs?
06:02:40 <shachaf> Not a fan of control flow graphs, huh?
06:05:30 <int-e> shachaf: have you seen today's AoC problem?
06:05:47 <int-e> I guess you have and are messing with me.
06:07:04 <shachaf> I just enjoy the ambiguity of this acronym.
06:07:39 <shachaf> I don't know what part 2 is, though.
06:08:29 <int-e> it adds cycles to the grammar
06:08:54 <shachaf> Ah, the first one has no cycles? Makes sense.
06:09:11 <int-e> (which made almost no difference to me)
06:09:34 <shachaf> Do you need backtracking for this problem?
06:15:11 <int-e> it's only a two letter alphabet so presumably one character lookahead isn't enough
06:54:05 <Lykaina> great...have to redo the math ops
07:02:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79500&oldid=59719 * Quintopia * (+272) is this an error?
07:11:15 -!- arseniiv has joined.
07:32:34 -!- rain1 has joined.
07:33:22 -!- Axton has joined.
07:33:46 -!- Axton has left ("WeeChat 1.9.1").
07:41:23 <int-e> . o O ( Both DuckDuckGo and Bing seem to autocorrect "difficulty lever" to "difficulty level" *without asking*. Google does not. *sigh* )
07:42:02 <imode> which behavior is correct.
07:42:05 <int-e> (Google makes a suggestion which is, of course, reasonable. It wasn't a typo.)
07:42:31 <imode> yeah, asking is always the best option.
07:43:11 <int-e> I'm reading a paper by EA on dynamic difficulty adjustment and they use the term, so I was wondering whether the term is used elsewhere.
07:43:46 <int-e> Their use is borderline nefarious: "First, adjusting [the difficulty] lever should make the game easier or harder. Second, adjusting this lever should be invisible to players [...]."
07:44:43 <imode> sounds more like marketing than a design term.
07:46:21 <int-e> The nefarious aspect is the invisibilty of the adjustment.
07:46:51 <imode> it seems transparent to me. "including results for..."
07:47:04 <int-e> And no, this isn't marketing, this is behavorial modeling (basically they estimate dropout rates) and difficulty adjustment based on that.
07:48:54 <int-e> imode: Including "difficulty level" results makes the results useless... they outnumber the relevant results by orders of magnitude.
07:49:30 <imode> yeaaah good point.
07:50:10 <int-e> And neither Bing nor DuckDuckGo actually tell me that...
07:50:30 <int-e> ...maybe due to disabled Javascript?
07:50:49 <int-e> Note that I included the quotes in the search query.
07:51:07 <imode> nah I get the same shit on JS.
07:51:31 <shachaf> OK, I guess I should figure out how the shunting yard algorithm works sometime.
07:52:53 <imode> does it look like an operator? throw it on the stack. else throw it on an output queue.
07:53:00 <int-e> "a method for parsing mathematical expressions specified in infix notation"
07:53:00 <imode> no more things? concatenate stack with queue.
07:53:41 <shachaf> I think what I should do is just try to do precedence parsing without recursion and see what I end up with.
07:54:45 <int-e> a name for something fairly trivial (though potentially quite error-prone)
07:55:03 <int-e> it's closely related to your favorite precedence climbing
07:55:46 <int-e> (which manages to use the runtime stack for the operator stack)
07:56:45 <b_jonas> int-e: if you are searching for the episode with the dial knob for the difficulty setting, it's https://powerpuffgirls.fandom.com/wiki/Bubblevicious
07:57:50 <int-e> b_jonas: where the fuck did that come from
07:58:34 <imode> that is a reference that I did not expect.
08:00:15 <shachaf> I was at 365 islands today when I stopped.
08:00:26 <shachaf> I think I sent that message right at midnight.
08:01:21 <b_jonas> int-e: what do you mean come from?
08:05:33 <int-e> b_jonas: Well, as far as I'm concerned you made up a whole new context for what I was looking for and thereby distorted it way beyond recognition.
08:08:40 <b_jonas> quite likely, but that's what "diffculty lever" reminds me
08:09:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: How many islands do you have in A Monster's Expedition?
08:10:07 <int-e> shachaf: are you still climbing rocks?
08:10:22 <shachaf> I don't remember where the frontier was.
08:10:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: what? I don't play that game
08:10:41 <shachaf> There was an island with a bench and no trees.
08:10:53 <shachaf> That I got to from an island with three trees.
08:11:04 <int-e> Right, that bench one did have me puzzled for a bit.
08:11:43 <int-e> In fact I think I proclaimed that I was stuck... when I was there.
08:11:47 <shachaf> The three trees on the other island are pretty awkwardly positioned.
08:12:09 <int-e> Then solved it very quickly in the beginning of the next session.
08:12:12 <shachaf> I'm sort of wondering whether I have to do something and then repeat the whole path that led me to that island.
08:12:23 <shachaf> But hopefully not since that'd be annoying.
08:12:36 <shachaf> I had an experience like that with another puzzle.
08:12:42 <int-e> As I recall it... no. But I'm not 100% sure :)
08:42:14 <int-e> "game retention prediction model" --- just rolls off your tongue doesn't it
09:07:26 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
09:37:50 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:39:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:23:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:41:56 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Batsharks are people too!).
12:00:56 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
13:28:39 -!- delta23 has joined.
13:56:56 <esowiki> [[Quantum Dimensions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79501&oldid=59465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Example programs */ Formatting, link
14:00:46 <esowiki> [[Alphabetti spaghetti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79502&oldid=74479 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreter */ Wayback (O Wayback Machine, whatever would we do without thee...)
14:54:49 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:06:36 -!- Frater_EST has joined.
15:16:01 -!- rain1 has joined.
15:17:29 <esowiki> [[Lazy evaluation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79503&oldid=68870 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 10
15:19:02 <esowiki> [[Infinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79504&oldid=23206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Aidepikiw
15:22:44 <fizzie> I cobbled together part 1 in a vaguely CYK-ish way, except (since it was cycle-free) "rulewise" rather than "lengthwise" (if that makes sense), and ended up having to special-case the part 2 rules. Might rewrite that to something prettier later on.
15:28:41 <int-e> I followed the principle that CYK is basically just memoization :P
15:50:30 <int-e> And then I managed to make it so inefficient that it took almost 2 minutes to run to completion for a single input.
16:36:41 -!- TheLie has joined.
16:59:16 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined.
16:59:45 <fizzie> int-e: Heh. Well, turns out there are only 2097152 strings total in the language of my part 1, and it's faster to just enumerate them all than do what I initially did.
17:00:17 <LegionMammal978> int-e: What do you generally optimize for when writing AoC solutions? I just took the quick and easy route and used regexes.
17:01:29 <LegionMammal978> For part 2, I was getting some headaches since the regex engine I used doesn't support balancing groups, but I found that hardcoding the first 20 expansions worked perfectly fine.
17:04:00 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:06:17 -!- aaaaaa has joined.
17:07:11 <aaaaaa> Reading here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic
17:07:16 <aaaaaa> "Each combinator is like a function or lambda abstraction, but without any free variables."
17:07:29 <aaaaaa> It's like a C function with no access to global variables? Only to arguments, right?
17:10:15 <LegionMammal978> They are similar, but a combinator does not have a notion of argument type and cannot have any side-effects.
17:11:12 <aaaaaa> LegionMammal978: OK, so combinator is like a function in pure PL (Haskell?) with no local variables and data types?
17:12:49 <kmc> the free variables of a lambda term are the variables which are not bound by the lambda as arguments, but are inherited from the environment where the lambda was evaluated
17:13:17 <kmc> also called 'captures'
17:14:04 <kmc> they don't exist in combinatory logic because variables don't exist really
17:14:11 <kmc> all you have is a small set of pre-defined lambda terms
17:14:14 <kmc> which have no captures
17:14:33 <aaaaaa> Yeah, a program is like a tree of combinator functions, right?
17:15:03 <kmc> a tree where the leaves are your predefined combinators (S, K, I, whatever) and the interior nodes are function application
17:15:17 <LegionMammal978> kmc: So as I understand it, the main difference between combinatory logic and lambda calculus is that you can't partially evaluate a multiple-argument combinator. Is that correct?
17:15:33 <kmc> i mean, the main difference is that there is no lambda in combinatory logic
17:15:39 <kmc> you can't define your own functions, at all
17:15:49 <kmc> you can only apply these few pre-existing functions to each other
17:16:02 -!- pr0gr3sR has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:16:11 <LegionMammal978> True, but any lambda expression has an equivalent combinator expression, does it not?
17:16:48 <kmc> SK combinatory logic is turing complete, every program in any language has an equivalent SK combinator expression
17:16:57 <kmc> (for the right definition of "equivalent")
17:17:21 <kmc> i'm not sure what you meant by partially evaluate
17:17:24 <kmc> did you mean partial application?
17:17:41 <LegionMammal978> That is, how in lambda calculus all multiple-argument functions must be curried.
17:17:57 <kmc> well there are no multiple-argument functions
17:18:04 <kmc> you fake it by currying
17:18:42 <LegionMammal978> Yes, and combinatory logic does have multiple-argument combinators that don't need to be faked.
17:18:49 <kmc> I see what you mean now
17:19:08 <kmc> though I think it would be fine to define those in a curried way
17:19:40 <kmc> like if you assign the obvious curried semantics to a partially applied term like (S K), I don't think it breaks anything
17:19:43 <kmc> but i don't know
17:20:43 <LegionMammal978> I recall writing a beta-reduction algorithm with De Bruijn indices, and the main annoyance is knowing how to slide around all of the free variables when you make a substitution.
17:20:56 <LegionMammal978> Combinatory logic avoids this by not having any variables at all.
17:21:22 <aaaaaa> Would you recommend learning Unlambda? Or there is another eso PL of that type which will suits better for a noob?
17:22:18 <aaaaaa> Or maybe Tom Stuart's book
17:22:24 <LegionMammal978> aaaaaa: I think it's somewhat useful for understanding how combinatory logic is used to write programs, but it's otherwise pretty frustrating.
17:23:32 <LegionMammal978> (Of course, Unlambda is somewhat special in that it has a builtin call/cc instruction.)
17:29:27 <int-e> LegionMammal978: I try to keep things simple, but what is simple depends so much on what you're familiar with that there's no such thing as ab objectively simple solution
17:29:55 <int-e> I didn't even consider regular expressions because this was a context-free grammar :P
17:30:17 <int-e> also I didn't expect the unfolding to fit into reasonable space, but apparently it does
17:31:16 <int-e> I aimed for something resembling an abstract version of CYK.
17:31:57 <int-e> (write a function that checks whether a string is accepted by a certain rule, then memoize it so it doesn't blow up exponentially)
17:32:09 <LegionMammal978> int-e: That makes sense. I just noticed that the definitions already used pipes and concatenations and figured that a regex engine could probably parse it.
17:32:32 <int-e> | are standard EBNF
17:32:43 <LegionMammal978> Now that I think about it, though, you probably don't even need to expand it all, if you have a regex implementation with named capture groups.
17:59:32 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:03:32 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:24:32 <Lykaina> echidna reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop6d-arduino.pdf (256 bytes of main memory, 512 bytes of extended memory)
18:47:53 <Lykaina> (or 4096 byte of extended mem on the mega)
18:59:57 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:01:10 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
19:01:28 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
19:06:41 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
19:32:35 -!- TheLie has joined.
19:58:17 -!- imode has joined.
20:15:10 -!- ocharles has changed nick to ocharles_bot.
20:16:53 -!- ocharles_bot has changed nick to ocharles.
20:18:57 <Lykaina> echidna reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop6d-arduino.pdf (256 bytes of main memory, 4096 bytes of extended memory on a mega2560)
20:22:30 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:25:21 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
20:26:00 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:26:02 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
20:28:50 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened).
20:28:53 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!).
20:31:50 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
20:31:59 -!- moony has joined.
20:40:21 -!- adu has joined.
20:58:40 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
21:09:34 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:13:37 -!- adu has joined.
21:13:38 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
21:16:20 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
21:17:35 -!- adu has joined.
21:21:32 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:35:41 <esowiki> [[PenisScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79505&oldid=76539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) /* External resources */ Cats, Seealso
21:36:09 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79506&oldid=79249 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* Console */ See.Also();
21:36:25 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79507&oldid=79506 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) m
21:43:01 <Lykaina> changes in echidna 0006e: there are now a max of 65535 subs
21:52:33 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host).
21:52:33 -!- sparr has joined.
22:06:23 -!- gitlogger has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:30:21 -!- gitlogger has joined.
22:36:51 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:45:09 <Lykaina> echidna reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop63-arduino.pdf (256 bytes of main memory, 4096 bytes of extended memory on a mega2560, main + 65535 subs)
22:47:21 <Lykaina> echidna reference: http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/cmdop6e-arduino.pdf (256 bytes of main memory, 4096 bytes of extended memory on a mega2560, main + 65535 subs)
22:49:03 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:35 -!- delta23 has joined.
23:07:24 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:08:14 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:39 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:10:25 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
23:10:36 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:17:05 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:54 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:37:02 <Lykaina> working on a fizzbuzz program for echidna 0006e
00:47:08 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79508&oldid=68228 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Not stub
00:47:51 <Lykaina> well, i've got a 1-100 working...
00:52:21 -!- adu has joined.
00:56:36 <Lykaina> 34 commands in 9 different "subs"
00:58:55 <Lykaina> had it smaller, but i wanted it more optimised
01:32:13 <Lykaina> http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/progs%20(0006e)/ is the example programs
01:51:23 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:52:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:52:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
01:57:39 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79509&oldid=78157 * D * (+260) Don't know where I heard of this extension, but added for completeness
02:00:57 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79510&oldid=79509 * D * (+88)
02:03:43 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79511&oldid=79510 * D * (+113) /* Examples */
02:13:22 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79512&oldid=79511 * D * (+374)
02:15:57 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79513&oldid=79512 * D * (+291) /* Equations */
02:22:39 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79514&oldid=79513 * D * (+100) /* Extensions */
02:24:29 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79515&oldid=79514 * D * (-24) /* Extensions */
02:28:39 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79516&oldid=79515 * D * (+396) /* Extensions */
02:31:11 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79517&oldid=79516 * D * (+36)
02:32:13 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79518&oldid=79517 * D * (-88) /* External resources */ Realized that it's not a good link anyway.
02:37:31 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79519&oldid=79518 * D * (+0) /* Add one function */
03:21:32 <Lykaina> is anyone actually interested in my arduino-based sd-read language?
03:23:04 <Lykaina> i get the feeling it's not very esoteric, but i still want comments
03:36:44 <zzo38> I don't have any Arduino; maybe someone who does have may be interested in such a thing, I suppose.
03:38:06 <Lykaina> i linked documentation and a folder with examples
04:02:00 <nakilon> try posting to /r/arduino or something
04:17:34 <Lykaina> the echidna language can easily be implemented in c
04:18:20 <Lykaina> it's not arduino-dependant
04:20:55 <Lykaina> sorry for implying otherwise
04:21:40 <Lykaina> http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/progs%20(0006e)/ is the example programs. how do they look?
04:22:58 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79520&oldid=79519 * D * (+77) /* Introduction */ Add stuff from the paper
04:25:53 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79521&oldid=79520 * D * (+39) /* Equations */
05:49:33 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
05:54:26 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:03:32 -!- adu has joined.
06:04:48 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
06:22:39 <zzo38> I look, it look like OK to me
06:25:25 <zzo38> Still I wanted to see if someone is interested in the projects I have made too, though; not only you.
06:27:35 <zzo38> I looked at the echidna reference; it look like OK to me, but is PDF needed, or I would expect plain text might do just as well?
06:29:56 <zzo38> (Also, a better explanation of some things might help, too.)
06:37:24 -!- adu has joined.
07:02:48 <int-e> Hrm, I don't understand why today's AoC is so twisty... intuitively the first part seems much harder than the twist.
07:04:11 <shachaf> I wish they showed the twists without an account after the leaderboard filled up.
07:04:27 <int-e> there are private leaderboards too
07:38:03 -!- arseniiv has joined.
07:46:40 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:14:41 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79522&oldid=79287 * Quintopia * (+2759) Add implementation
08:15:43 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79523&oldid=79522 * Quintopia * (+22) repair code block formatting
08:18:43 -!- spruit11 has joined.
08:39:32 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Batsharks are people too!).
08:43:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:43:22 <ais523> an esoquestion that has come up multiple times (including now) and I still haven't found a satisfactory answer to
08:43:54 <ais523> suppose you have a string of Unicode characters, and want to display it to a person
08:44:13 <ais523> outputting it unchanged is inappropriate because some Unicode characters are control codes that will have weird effects if you try to output them, so you have to replace them
08:44:50 <ais523> with C0 control codes (+ DEL and NEL), the correct course of action is fairly obvious: just use the corresponding Unicode control picture to represent it
08:44:52 <zzo38> The way to do it depends on the context. Sometimes there is no good way.
08:45:03 <ais523> however, I haven't found a satisfactory solution for C1 control codes
08:46:29 <ais523> well, I'm ideally looking for a general solution because I need to tell a computer how to do it, and computers often don't have that much sense of context
08:48:17 <zzo38> You must have some kind of context, at least. For example, if it is being output as a part of a HTML document, I think there is a command in HTML 5 to isolate the effect of Unicode control characters.
08:48:47 <ais523> <bdi> isolates directional override characters
08:48:54 <ais523> but those are not considered control characters in Unicode
08:48:54 <zzo38> But if nothing else works, best might be to just display printable ASCII characters only, and to display the Unicode codepoint numbers where non-ASCII or non-printable characters are present.
08:49:43 <zzo38> HTML also has a &# command, in case you want to escape any character, I suppose
08:49:51 <ais523> the only Unicode "control characters" (\p{Cc} in a regex) are U+0000 to U+001F inclusive and U+007F to U+009F inclusive
08:50:21 <zzo38> You could also display some kind of substitute for C1 controls I suppose, if wanted to do
08:51:40 <ais523> using an &# numeric entity for a control character is actually defined to be an error in HTML
08:52:34 <ais523> although, the HTML specification provides a specific error recovery action, which is to interpret the given number as a Windows-1252 codepoint rather than a Unicode codepoint
08:53:57 <ais523> actually, the HTML specification's error recovery is really dubious in some respects
08:54:11 <ais523> e.g. a literal C0 control code is an error, but the error recovery action is to treat it literally (???)
08:54:21 <ais523> so there are erroneous HTML documents that parse to something that cannot be expressed in a valid HTML document
08:54:57 <ais523> and this has come up in practice on websites like TIO, where I frequently want to input text that contains control characters, and the website then tries to echo it back to me
08:55:31 <ais523> oh, on a side note, a quirk of encoding means that "set tab stop" is in Unicode but "delete tab stop" isn't
08:55:49 <zzo38> Many people will try to use Unicode for everything; that is not a good idea, I think. For some things it works OK. They also want to use HTML for everything, which also isn't the best idea, either.
08:56:02 <ais523> if they both were, it is possible that it would be Turing-complete (assuming an implicit loop around the program) using set tab stop, delete tab stop, space, backspace, tab and carriage return
08:57:10 <ais523> well, the current situation where this came up is that I'm in a situation where I need to use HTML, so I'm trying to write a safe HTML generation library that's restricted to a set of HTML that behaves sanely and is secure
08:57:25 <ais523> to avoid needing to try to generate it directly and probably making a mistake
08:57:58 <zzo38> Can you figure out such a thing? Make a character set including a "delete tab stop" control and the other five listed, figure out if it is Turing-complete or not, maybe write in esolang wiki about such thing if you figure out anything about that
08:59:16 <zzo38> One thing you could do, if you only care about C0 and C1 controls, perhaps is to replace the controls by something such as <span class="unicode-control">9F</span> or whatever
08:59:34 <ais523> that doesn't work inside attributes, like title=
09:00:12 <ais523> anything other than C0 and C1 controls is either safe to output literally given appropriate bidirectional isolation, or else is so obviously an error that you can just replace it with a replacement character
09:00:38 <zzo38> O, yes, you are right. Inside of attributes you may need something else. If the attribute is a URL, you can use percent encoding, but if it isn't, then you will need to do something else; you could use Windows-1252, or just use replacement characters maybe, I don't know
09:00:42 <ais523> so C0 and C1 controls are just the hard part
09:02:34 <zzo38> I don't like those error handling either I think that a better idea might be to ignore Unicode character properties entirely and instead for the implementation to use whatever is specified in the font tables; the web browser could include a font with Windows-1252 characters in the C1 controls area in order to satisfy the HTML specification, I suppose
09:04:12 <ais523> in retrospect, it was probably a mistake to include control characters in Unicode at all; Unicode itself should have restricted itself to non-control characters, and control characters should have been specified as part of the encoding not as part of the character repertoire
09:04:45 <ais523> but, it is very commonplace to store control characters literally in strings…
09:05:01 <ais523> incidentally, I tested out some percent-encodings on my webserver
09:05:05 <zzo38> Yes, that may have been better
09:05:39 <ais523> it seems to be happy to percent-decode any byte in a URL, including treating %2F as a directory separator, with the exception of %00 which causes a "bad request" error (400)
09:05:53 <zzo38> I also think that it would be better that <bdi> isolates everything, not only directional override but also ligatures, kerning, variation selectors, etc.
09:06:22 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
09:06:39 <ais523> I am not convinced that this corresponds to the specification
09:06:52 <ais523> hmm, I would expect *any* tag to isolate things like variation selectors
09:07:00 <ais523> although possibly not kerningg
09:07:27 <ais523> although, I seem to remember there was a big discussion by one of the browser vendors about what they should do in terms of rendering if a combining character is a different color from the character it combines onto
09:08:02 <zzo38> Actually, depending on how the kernings are encoded in the font, and on the direction of the kernings, it may be OK that <bdi> and other tags do not isolate kerning in all cases
09:09:07 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:09:17 <zzo38> About combining characters, I should think probably it should disregard any ligatures between characters of different colours, so if any combinations are implemented with ligatures, those combinations will not work if they are different colours.
09:10:21 <zzo38> But if it is implemented only with changing the positions, it ought to still work, I should expect. (Although, I think that <bdi> should probably disregard commands in the font for repositioning combining characters too)
09:11:43 <ais523> Firefox seems to block combining characters at the edge of a <span>
09:11:59 <ais523> so <bdi> would definitely block combining
09:17:18 <ais523> hmm, so apparently UTF-5 can encode C1 control codes but not C0 control codes
09:17:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:17:46 <ais523> even more impressively, I tried looking up the IPs for some addresses containing C1 control codes in dig, and it rejected them due to containing invalid characters
09:18:01 <ais523> (an example is xn--a-a.com)
09:22:12 <zzo38> Did you write "xn--a-a.com" or did you write something that will be converted as that? Also, does it depend on the locale at all? The man page says that you can add a IDN_DISABLE environment variable if you want to disable IDN, though.
09:22:42 <ais523> I wrote xn--a-a.com directly (it encodes a U+0080 character followed by an "a")
09:23:50 <ais523> (which in turn would in theory be equivalent to an ASCII "a", except that the standard that would have defined that removed it before being standardised and so now it's just an unused control code)
09:23:57 <zzo38> On my computer, I get no message about it being rejected, although there seems to be no such domain name
09:24:55 <ais523> …actually, I am really bothered by SS2 and SS3 in particular being in Unicode
09:25:02 <ais523> these are encoding control characters
09:25:22 <ais523> the correct way to translate a file containing them in Unicode is to follow their instructions about what encoding the file is in
09:25:30 <ais523> not to translate them literally
09:34:20 <ais523> I've tried rendering C1 control codes by putting combining characters on the C0 control pictures
09:34:28 <ais523> but, most text renderers don't produce anything particularly meaningful for that
09:35:24 <ais523> in particular the control picture often isn't centered correctly
09:39:17 <ais523> actually, combining circumflex looks fairly good on my computer, even though it's offset
09:39:23 <ais523> how does http://nethack4.org/pastebin/82.html look for the people here?
09:40:29 <zzo38> It looks like OK to me
09:44:59 <ais523> of course, the names of the C0 control characters don't match the C1 control characters very well
09:45:05 <ais523> but simply being able to show something is helpful
09:54:34 <ais523> ooh, I think I just found a bug in nginx
09:54:58 <ais523> according to the specification, example.com/a%2Fb/../c should be equivalent to example.com/c, but nginx interprets it as equivalent to example.com/a/c
10:19:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
10:31:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:47:34 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
12:01:10 <arseniiv> <ais523> actually, combining circumflex looks fairly good on my computer, even though it's offset <ais523> how does http://nethack4.org/pastebin/82.html look for the people here? => offset for me too; the control character itself is displayed as “DC4” run diagonally ↘ (Firefox on windows)
12:34:29 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
12:36:16 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:26:18 <esowiki> [[Archway]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79524&oldid=53673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Changes in Archway2 */ and->or
13:29:52 <esowiki> [[Chris Barker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79525&oldid=63799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) What about Zot?
13:55:32 <fizzie> int-e: One contributing factor is possibly that you can do part 1 without actually reassembling the image.
13:56:00 <fizzie> int-e: That's what I did, and I haven't actually gotten around to part 2 yet, need to do some things before the daylight is all gone.
13:57:15 <fizzie> (Just count the number of matching edges; corner tiles are the ones that have the least.)
14:00:50 -!- delta23 has joined.
14:02:41 <esowiki> [[Machine code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79526&oldid=74761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Nor
14:02:55 <esowiki> [[Assembly code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79527&oldid=74760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Nro
14:24:05 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened).
14:25:46 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
14:32:32 -!- diverger has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:34:31 <int-e> fizzie: Oh I thought I had tested for that property (no duplicate edges) earlier... apparently I messed up. Makes sense.
14:35:03 <b_jonas> ais523: "with C0 control codes ... just use the corresponding Unicode control picture to represent it / however, I haven't found a satisfactory solution for C1 control codes" => there are control pictures for those as well.
14:37:41 -!- diverger has joined.
14:39:25 <b_jonas> or wait... are there? I might be confused
14:41:24 -!- rain1 has joined.
14:41:59 <b_jonas> hmm no, maybe there aren't. I'm not sure
14:43:07 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:46:36 <b_jonas> "anything other than C0 and C1 controls is either safe to output literally ... or else is so obviously an error" => but C1 controls are safe to output either literally or ampersane-escaped: that's allowed in both XML 1.0 and XML 1.1, unlike some C0 controls
14:46:59 <b_jonas> I think they're still allowed literally in an XML attribute value
14:49:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, tags definitely shouldn't always break up kerning. that would look ugly, sometimes you want an a or abbr tag for a word without changing the font, and the kerning should be right between words.
14:50:09 <b_jonas> UTF-5? what the heck is that?
14:50:47 <b_jonas> probably even ligatures should be allowed through a tag, but combining characters probably not
14:51:17 <b_jonas> "even more impressively, I tried looking up the IPs for some addresses containing C1 control codes in dig, and it rejected them due to containing invalid characters" => yes, even a lot of non-ascii punctuation is invalid in domain names
14:51:46 <b_jonas> and which ones differ between different versions of the spec for them apparently
14:52:36 <int-e> int-e: So basically, I failed to keep things simple this time. Oh well, it happens.
14:53:18 <b_jonas> see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-03-10.1857.html#d.2011-03-10.1857 where David Madore complains about how he bought a domain name, then it later turned out to be invalid, so the registry refused to register it or unregistered it, which is fine, but then they refused to repay him the money, even as credits
14:58:19 <b_jonas> "in retrospect, it was probably a mistake to include control characters in Unicode at all; Unicode itself should have restricted itself to non-control characters, and control characters should have been specified as part of the encoding not as part of the character repertoire" => um, what actual difference would that make? isn't it just difference in naming?
14:58:36 -!- user24 has joined.
14:59:00 <b_jonas> or would that imply that even C1 controls would be invalid in XML because they're not characters? that would be rather annoying
15:04:58 <b_jonas> exactly because of the problem you describe: anyone who outputs user-submitted content in XML format would have to filter out those characters, because XML readers would reject them
15:05:22 <b_jonas> we currently have to do this with either most C0 controls, or at least NUL, depending on whether the reader is XML 1.0 or XML 1.1 reader
15:06:26 <b_jonas> at least some XML readers actually refuse to read � just as specified in the standards
15:15:31 <b_jonas> also, as I learned, in XML attribute values, you must escape newlines, because a literal newline in an attribute value represents a space -- unlike in PCDATA, where it represents a newline. this is stupid, but you have to do it for compatibility with readers.
15:57:31 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined.
15:58:23 <LegionMammal978> int-e: Regarding the twistiness of today's AoC, the first part is actually easier than I expected when writing my program.
15:58:53 <LegionMammal978> As it turns out, there will never be a choice regarding which edge can match to another edge.
15:59:28 <LegionMammal978> Therefore, you only have to find the tiles for which only two other tiles match any of its edges (forwards or in reverse).
16:00:10 <LegionMammal978> In the second part, however, you actually have to determine all of the individual positions and rotations.
16:02:24 <LegionMammal978> Originally, I had constructed a graph of all tiles with common edges, expecting that I'd to enumerate through all of the grid subgraphs.
16:03:33 <LegionMammal978> When I looked at the visualized graph, though, I saw that there was exactly one grid.
16:07:00 <LegionMammal978> b_jonas: I'd imagine that the control-character ranges would be left unassigned, just like most characters outside the BMP.
16:14:04 <b_jonas> LegionMammal978: ok, but I don't see why that would be better than officially assigning them to the ASCII and C1 controls
16:16:50 <LegionMammal978> b_jonas: Nobody ever really uses them for that, though, apart from CR, LF, and TAB. Perhaps they'd have been able to come up with some better use.
16:23:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:24:36 <ais523> <b_jonas> um, what actual difference would that make? isn't it just difference in naming? ← it would mean that each encoding would only need to be able to express control codes that were appropriate for the encoding
16:25:23 <ais523> and that control codes couldn't be passed "as text" from one program to another, you would need a side channel (this would be a good thing IMO because there's no particular reason why two Unicode users would want the same control codes)
16:26:49 <ais523> as a simple example, the string ESC % @ is a standardised control code sequence whose meaning indicates that the following text is not Unicode
16:27:08 <ais523> so it doesn't make much sense for Unicode to be able to encode it, it shouldn't logically be able to appear in a Unicode character stream
16:27:37 <ais523> but, Unicode encodings would want to be able to recognise it so that they know to switch to some other decoding mechanism
16:29:31 <ais523> oh, it's also worth mentioning that one of the three most common whitespace characters, tab, is ambiguous
16:30:01 <ais523> the traditional meaning was "tab to tab stop", and it still means that in most contexts, but in programming contexts the meaning is more like "indentation space" which is much narrower
16:34:29 <LegionMammal978> Really, CR and LF are also ambiguous, considering Windows' CRLF vs. Linux's LF vs. early Mac's CR
16:35:41 <ais523> I think CR to move to the next line is dead at this point
16:35:46 <LegionMammal978> I recall writing a patch that would always fail even after copying from the diff, and it was due to a trailing CR not surviving the copy
16:36:02 <ais523> but LF is still ambiguous between "move down one line" and "move to the start of the next line"
16:37:09 <ais523> that ambiguity got fixed via splitting LF into IND and NEL, neither of which is used very often (NEL is seen on rare occasion, IND almost never)
16:37:17 <ais523> and then made more confusing with the addition of LS
16:38:59 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia says that IND was deprecated in 1988 and removed in 1992, maybe that's why I never see it in practice :-D
16:39:31 <ais523> that said, it is listed in the documentation for the Linux console, and thus presumably still works there
16:47:17 <ais523> gnome-terminal seems to understand both IND and NEL (encoded via either the 7-bit fallback mechanism or UTF-8)
16:48:34 <ais523> LegionMammal978: control codes are used for a range of different purposes, one of which was historically setting the 8-bit-ness of a terminal connection
16:49:32 <ais523> so in order to avoid a problem with trying to send a C1 control (high bit set) over a 7-bit connection, there are digraphs starting with C0 control codes that mimic the C1 control codes
16:49:37 <ais523> sort of like trigraphs in C
16:50:24 <ais523> nowadays this is the normal way to write C1 control codes when you're using them for their control-code usages, because C0 control codes have much more consistent behaviour between platforms
16:50:43 <ais523> (also, it comes to the same number of bytes in UTF-8)
16:56:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
16:58:22 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
17:29:56 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79528&oldid=79198 * LegionMammal978 * (-64) /* Implementation */ fixed buffer overflow
17:39:20 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:39:39 -!- NeverBorn has joined.
17:44:32 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:44:58 <b_jonas> fungot, how will you commiserate Brexit day?
17:44:58 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i must mention the predominantly mediterranean nature of this issue but it seems right to add, however, is that this act should be considered properly. we also call upon the commission and i personally cannot give my approval with an unequivocal " yes" vote but it seems to me that there have not been able to get here either.
17:58:11 <kmc> i wonder if scotland will become independent from the (formerly) United Kingdom and rejoin the EU
17:58:15 <kmc> it will be funny if brexit leads to the UK losing territory they've controlled since 1707
18:08:55 <fizzie> fungot: I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think Brexit is a predominantly mediterranean issue.
18:08:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i recognize that the impact of the palace killings on the stability of the future financial perspectives, mr colom i naval has suggested, then tell us off for trying to shorten the procedures as much as he talked about parliament's and the council's resolution, i also said in this house are extremely important, the intention of the commission also supports the idea of doubling the european and internationa
18:10:08 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:16:14 <b_jonas> fungot, how old is Microsoft Bob?
18:16:14 <fungot> b_jonas: it has recently been the case, this is deferred punishment for its lack of harmony with the principles set out in the framework of the federal republic of yugoslavia.
18:49:32 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:54:38 <kmc> i had fun playing with it when i was young
19:03:05 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:03:40 -!- xelxebar has joined.
19:23:54 -!- adu has joined.
19:24:23 <esowiki> [[Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79529&oldid=75392 * Quintopia * (-120) remove dead external link
19:34:35 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:43:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:56:55 <int-e> @tell LegionMammal978 Thanks! fizzie had already pointed out what the shortcut is.
20:17:07 -!- aaaaaa_ has joined.
20:17:34 -!- aaaaaa_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:18:03 -!- aaaaaa_ has joined.
20:18:26 -!- aaaaaa_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:18:46 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
20:19:44 <ArthurStrong> Hi all. Why denormalized/subnormalized numbers are exists at all? How they are used? (IEEE 754).
20:22:27 -!- delta23 has joined.
20:28:47 -!- dionys has quit (Quit: dionys).
20:29:06 -!- dionys has joined.
20:34:15 <myname> how else would you add to floats with different exponent?
20:36:47 -!- grumble has changed nick to SeasonsBeatings.
20:41:35 -!- jess has changed nick to sandy-claws.
20:44:52 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: read the final 4th edition of TAOCP volume 2, it will explain it .... oh wait
20:45:20 <b_jonas> in that case, wait twenty years, then read the final 4th edition of TAOCP volume 2
20:59:26 -!- Lykaina has left.
20:59:40 <myname> ArthurStrong: so you think if i do 1 + 2 = 1*2^0 + 1*2^1 it would be perfectly fine to just drop the smaller one and return 2 as a result?
21:01:02 <ArthurStrong> myname: but support of denormalized numbers wasn't always there. Somehow, FPUs added numbers before?
21:01:15 <myname> ArthurStrong: well, you _could_ just make it 1*2^0 + 2*2^0 = 3*2^0
21:05:20 -!- TheLie has joined.
21:17:53 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79530&oldid=78111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Syntax */ Assignment
21:21:47 <esowiki> [[Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79531&oldid=46460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Other implementations */ Cat
21:24:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood).
21:25:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
21:26:13 <esowiki> [[Cod]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79532&oldid=78609 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) /* External resources */ cats
21:26:24 <esowiki> [[Cod]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79533&oldid=79532 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ cat
21:27:14 <esowiki> [[Kvikkalkul]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79534&oldid=51382 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* External resources */ wayback
21:27:21 -!- sprocklem has joined.
21:28:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tape * New user account
21:31:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79535&oldid=79462 * Tape * (+118)
21:33:09 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
21:33:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:01:54 -!- FreeFull has joined.
22:11:56 -!- imode has joined.
22:24:49 -!- adu has joined.
22:39:06 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:46:56 <esowiki> [[(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79536&oldid=70058 * Tape * (+988)
22:48:39 <esowiki> [[(())]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79537&oldid=79536 * Tape * (+50)
22:53:28 <esowiki> [[(())]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79538&oldid=79537 * Tape * (+15)
22:54:54 <esowiki> [[(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79539&oldid=79538 * Tape * (+2) /* Interpreter */
23:03:44 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79540&oldid=77816 * Tape * (-1) /* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */ fixed an error
23:06:18 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:34:16 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebbbooot).
23:37:00 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:53:10 -!- adu has joined.
00:03:24 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79541&oldid=77857 * Bananaapple * (-610) Simplified booleans
00:04:05 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79542&oldid=79541 * Bananaapple * (-70) finished last edit
00:09:13 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79543&oldid=79542 * Bananaapple * (+807) New section about generating filth code
00:24:29 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:45:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:47:15 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:57:39 -!- stux|RC-only has quit (*.net *.split).
00:57:39 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split).
00:57:39 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split).
00:57:39 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
00:57:39 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split).
00:57:39 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split).
00:57:39 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split).
01:00:05 -!- stux|RC-only has joined.
01:17:53 -!- FireFly has joined.
01:17:53 -!- int-e has joined.
01:17:53 -!- ineiros has joined.
01:17:53 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined.
01:17:53 -!- APic has joined.
01:17:53 -!- fungot has joined.
01:42:20 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:49:52 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:52:39 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:53:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:54:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:02:54 -!- BWBellairs has quit (Quit: Quit).
02:12:33 -!- BWBellairs has joined.
02:43:39 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
02:45:17 -!- FreeFull has quit.
03:16:37 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:27:05 -!- ornxka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:56:51 -!- ornxka has joined.
03:57:44 -!- adu has joined.
04:02:50 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:54:11 -!- sprocklem has joined.
06:00:41 <shachaf> int-e: My idea for bench island didn't work so I'm confusil again.
06:01:27 <shachaf> In fact I think it put the game into an unsolvable state?
06:01:38 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe not, I think you can fix it with the teleporters.
06:02:33 <shachaf> But I am starting to wonder whether I was supposed to get here from another place first or something.
06:10:06 -!- mta has joined.
06:14:30 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:14:45 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
06:14:49 -!- mta has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:15:29 -!- mta has joined.
06:18:03 -!- mta has quit (Client Quit).
06:19:11 -!- mta has joined.
06:27:36 -!- mta has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:35:04 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79544&oldid=79377 * Tetrapyronia * (+71) added Turi
06:35:32 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79545&oldid=79376 * Tetrapyronia * (+11)
06:54:52 -!- mta has joined.
07:15:36 -!- mta has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:36:46 -!- mta has joined.
07:41:56 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
07:48:03 <shachaf> int-e: Oh man, the mechanic for 81,182 is evil.
07:51:32 -!- rain1 has joined.
07:52:57 <int-e> Ah found it... but it was a fair puzzle in context.
07:57:30 <int-e> the next one is better
08:02:04 -!- mta has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
08:02:30 <int-e> Hmm today's AoC is in P, but could be quite a bit more interesting than it is.
08:05:11 <shachaf> Oh man, 107,199 was sneaky.
08:09:18 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:13:56 -!- arseniiv has joined.
08:20:17 <int-e> I forgot, the footsteps may have helped
08:20:37 <shachaf> Now I'm stuck in this endish-looking area and there isn't even a mailbox here.
08:20:45 <shachaf> So I guess I gotta figure this out.
08:23:19 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
08:25:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:29:43 <shachaf> Oh man, it's a boat and everything.
08:30:42 <int-e> but you could see that earlier, couldn't you?
08:31:04 <int-e> or maybe I'm confused about the order of events
08:31:39 <shachaf> I'm at 409 islands, 117 stamps (?), one boat, and 0 friends.
08:35:47 <int-e> stamps?! landmarks?
08:36:14 <int-e> but you may be right that the symbol is a stamp
08:36:49 <int-e> I think it's a socket with something small on it and a sign to read
08:37:52 <shachaf> Until now I thought it was a mailbox.
08:37:57 <shachaf> But I guess it means landmark.
08:38:24 <int-e> I don't know where I got the term from, hmm. Oh actually I do, I looked at a savegame file.
08:39:07 <int-e> except that they're called exhibits there
08:39:15 <int-e> so maybe I just made it up for myself
08:39:57 <shachaf> Hmm, there sure is a lot of fog left.
08:42:50 <int-e> I really liked how they managed to end the game and let you continue playing smoothly.
08:43:27 <int-e> compared to the usual method of resetting you to the last playable state before the game concludes
08:44:19 <int-e> or, worse, making the end credits a save point so you don't even have the option
08:47:09 <int-e> (which is an issue with games that rely solely on autosaves and don't maintain more than one snapshot per "profile"... which is annoyingly common nowadays)
08:52:23 <int-e> shachaf: 515/141/8 and still some fog
09:08:13 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:28:25 -!- user24 has joined.
10:36:43 -!- sandy-claws has quit (Quit: updates).
10:51:37 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
11:35:34 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79546&oldid=79544 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) fixed Turi tm
11:36:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79547&oldid=79487 * RSG4908 * (+634)
11:37:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79548&oldid=79547 * RSG4908 * (+3)
12:55:39 <fizzie> Well, there's that non-numeric answer at last.
13:03:22 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Batsharks are people too!).
13:26:31 -!- rain1 has joined.
13:27:34 <esowiki> [[Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79549&oldid=79529 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) Undo revision 79529 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]]) (Add updated link)
13:37:04 <esowiki> [[(())]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79550&oldid=79539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Interpreter */ Link, cat
13:48:11 <esowiki> [[Roadrunner]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79551&oldid=45266 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Use interwiki link
13:48:41 <esowiki> [[Roadrunner]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79552&oldid=79551 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fix\
13:54:25 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
13:56:31 <b_jonas> https://twitter.com/photos_floues/status/1339488507203600384 "what book you read is extremely personal and revealing, and that libraries guard this information much like banks treat your financial data" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH get out of my lawn, young people. libraries have you sign the card that is kept right in the pocket of the book whenever the book is not borrowed. you can just walk into the library, find
13:56:37 <b_jonas> the most compromising book on the shelf, and read the signatures and dates right from that card any time. (unless the card overflowed and got replaced of course.)
13:59:58 <b_jonas> also I know that my university library used to assign library card numbers basically sequentially, and the default password on their websites is the student's birthday, so if you pick a number around your card, chance is they're from the same year as you and you can brute force their birthdate; and before that they didn't have library cards, but used Neptun codes, which are supposedly secret but
14:00:04 <b_jonas> trivially easy to obtain in practice, so if a friend doesn't change their password you can totally see what books they have borrowed.
14:02:46 <Arcorann_> Are there libraries that still use borrowing cards attached to books in 2020
14:04:34 <b_jonas> Arcorann_: most of them definitely aren't. I'm not sure if there remain any.
14:04:55 <b_jonas> I know there are still libraries that haven't digitized all of their catalog, but I think they're not using borrow cards anymore
14:05:37 <b_jonas> that's why I think the person tweeting this is young
14:38:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:20:04 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79553&oldid=76251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Example Programs */ Cats::link->add();
15:20:34 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79554&oldid=79553 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Example Programs */ Add HW
15:21:13 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:39:02 -!- rain1 has joined.
15:52:27 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79555&oldid=76138 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Examples */ Links, cat
15:56:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:UClang*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79556&oldid=79548 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+218) /* A4 and A5 */ Reply to reply
15:58:15 <esowiki> [[Eternity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79557&oldid=78177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) grm
16:54:07 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:54:14 -!- HackEso has joined.
17:13:32 -!- mta has joined.
17:21:16 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
17:44:58 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:45:13 -!- moony has joined.
17:45:13 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:46:39 -!- kmc has joined.
17:53:50 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
18:15:17 -!- Cale has joined.
18:23:31 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
18:40:30 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:43:04 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
18:54:05 <oren> in ISO Standard English, using the subjunctive mood be undefined behaviour
19:01:10 <zzo38> Happy Yule (in the north hemisphere)
19:03:08 <esowiki> [[Kkipple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79558&oldid=34212 * LegionMammal978 * (-163) this was a pain to parse
19:04:46 <kmc> zzo38: same to you :)
19:09:04 -!- delta23 has joined.
19:09:50 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined.
19:10:22 <LegionMammal978> Just finished writing an interpreter for that stupid language Kkipple
19:10:48 <zzo38> (And, in a few days, Christmas)
19:10:58 <LegionMammal978> The concept is pretty neat, but the syntax is really annoying to parse
19:11:21 <LegionMammal978> Each value can be attached to binary operators before and after it
19:11:47 <LegionMammal978> A unary operator attaches to either adjacent value, but only if there isn't any whitespace between them
19:12:42 <LegionMammal978> And then each operator has restrictions on which values it will take
19:15:16 -!- rain1 has joined.
19:23:28 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79559&oldid=79554 * Tetrapyronia * (+55) added infinite cat
19:47:54 -!- mta has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:48:23 -!- mta has joined.
19:53:57 -!- mta has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:23:28 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:35:16 -!- mta has joined.
20:36:15 -!- meta has joined.
20:39:47 -!- mta has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:59:01 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:59:25 -!- xelxebar has joined.
21:03:40 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:35 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:54 -!- xelxebar has joined.
21:20:14 -!- imode has joined.
21:32:59 -!- shikhin has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:33:05 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3).
21:33:14 -!- shikhin has joined.
21:33:24 -!- Lymia has joined.
21:37:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:55:28 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:11:39 -!- meta has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:20:29 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:37:55 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
22:39:54 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:39:57 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
23:08:48 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:14:36 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:21:33 -!- mich181189 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:22:04 -!- dingwat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:22:14 -!- ocharles has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:22:50 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:30:47 -!- sandy-claws has joined.
23:39:29 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:56:49 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:24:39 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
01:52:51 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:55:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:55:34 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:51:20 <b_jonas> https://xkcd.com/2401/ => wait, wasn't that in November? or were they just already close in November, with Mars also close to them, but actually got closest now?
02:53:02 <b_jonas> looks like it is now indeed
02:53:48 <kmc> about 8 hours ago
02:53:52 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_conjunction#2020
02:53:59 <kmc> I just got back from viewing it in the park here
02:54:02 <kmc> was kinda neat
02:54:04 <kmc> we saw Mars too
02:54:09 <kmc> but Mars was pretty far away in the sky
02:54:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CaseSwitch * New user account
02:57:22 <kmc> is it just coincidence that this is happening on the solstice or is that astronomically related somehow
02:57:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79560&oldid=79535 * CaseSwitch * (+146)
02:58:48 <b_jonas> nor was Mars close to them back in November, I'm just stupid
03:00:54 <kmc> happy Solstice all :)
03:01:06 <kmc> the short days are really getting to me this year, i'm glad they will start to get longer
03:02:43 <b_jonas> I should probably try to look at it after a sunset, but most of the winter is cloudy, plus I'm in a big city with lots of light so it's hard to see anythin, I'm not sure I can even see the Saturn by naked eye in this light. I have seen Jupiter and Mars.
03:03:06 <b_jonas> and yes, the winter has too little daylight, it sucks
03:03:47 <b_jonas> well, we'll see if there'll be a gap in the clouds
03:06:16 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79561&oldid=79474 * CaseSwitch * (+159)
03:12:39 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79562&oldid=79561 * CaseSwitch * (+85) /* Derivative Ideas */
03:13:15 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79563&oldid=79562 * CaseSwitch * (+0)
03:23:19 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
04:27:00 -!- imode has joined.
04:31:58 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
04:54:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
05:13:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:15:40 -!- imode has quit (Quit: slep w/thesi.).
06:31:20 -!- nfd has joined.
07:45:23 -!- arseniiv has joined.
07:50:14 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:50:18 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
08:09:23 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:11:33 -!- delta23 has joined.
08:17:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:28:23 <int-e> AoC seems to hate me today, hmm. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
08:29:15 <int-e> (I'm sure I did get the point of the second part, but the site doesn't like my answer.)
08:30:41 <shachaf> I saw someone in another channel say that, and later they said what they did wrong.
08:30:47 <shachaf> But presumably quoting that would be spoilers.
08:32:00 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:14:22 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
09:19:35 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
09:33:37 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:35:23 -!- iovoid has joined.
10:01:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:24:57 -!- glowcoil has joined.
10:26:07 -!- ocharles has joined.
10:26:22 -!- ocharles has changed nick to Guest98308.
10:29:44 -!- mich181189 has joined.
10:32:14 -!- dingwat has joined.
11:23:47 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
11:52:16 -!- nfd has joined.
12:14:09 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:14:50 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79564&oldid=78221 * OsmineYT * (+12)
12:15:26 <esowiki> [[Negate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79565 * OsmineYT * (+25) ye
12:25:20 <shachaf> <imode> does it look like an operator? throw it on the stack. else throw it on an output queue.
12:25:36 <shachaf> I finally figured out what I think must be approximately the shunting yard algorithm.
12:25:44 <shachaf> I never understood why people talked about an output queue.
12:26:03 <shachaf> My conclusion: There is no output queue, and that's only necessary if you want to convert to RPN or somethign. There's an output stack.
12:28:11 <shachaf> Very reasonable. There's an operand stack and an operator stack. At various times you pop off the two top operands and combine them with the top operator.
12:28:46 <shachaf> This still seems too complicated so maybe I'll figure out how to simplify it tomorrow.
13:52:29 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
13:53:12 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services).
13:53:14 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
13:59:13 -!- TheLie has joined.
14:30:26 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79566&oldid=79563 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Derivative Ideas */ Format
14:42:54 <int-e> hmm "output queue"
14:47:21 -!- Linneris has joined.
14:50:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:50:34 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:54:41 <fizzie> What I did wrong in AoC today was to, yes, check my `seen` map for whether this position has already been seen, but not actually ever set anything in it. So at least my input seems to have one of those otherwise-infinite games.
15:01:31 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:12:43 <fizzie> Also, while it's been very cloudy most of the days, Sunday was clear, so did manage to see Jupter & Saturn on Sunday after sunset, just from our balcony.
15:18:56 <fizzie> Also snapped a picture (without any sort of telescope, just a regular APS-C-crop DSLR and the cheapest 55-250mm zoom lens money can buy), and if you squint at it, you can imagine a little bit of a shape for Saturn that could be suggestive of rings, at least when comparing to other people's better pictures: https://zem.fi/tmp/img_7899.jpg
15:22:36 <int-e> . o O ( Parentheses should be disallowed (except to clarify information already given, to provide a rationale, or to go off unrelated tangents). )
15:23:49 -!- rain1 has joined.
15:30:08 <fizzie> Fair enough (though really that still (arguably) leaves quite a lot of scope for parentheses (even nested ones)).
15:46:33 <int-e> fizzie: The context is that I failed to properly read today's 2nd part of AoC... and needed help to figure that out.
15:47:29 <fizzie> Oh, I thought that was about my parenthetical remarks (which would have been fair enough as well (I overuse parens)).
15:47:57 <int-e> I'm not usually opposed to parentheses.
15:48:19 <int-e> But I underestimated how dangerous they are.
16:52:05 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:53:04 -!- xelxebar has joined.
17:14:33 -!- Linneris has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!).
18:12:50 -!- magma has joined.
18:31:24 -!- Guest98308 has quit (Changing host).
18:31:24 -!- Guest98308 has joined.
18:31:32 -!- Guest98308 has changed nick to ocharles.
19:04:17 <esowiki> [[Footsteps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79567&oldid=52140 * Quintopia * (+1542) implementation
19:05:47 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79568&oldid=79523 * Quintopia * (+22) bugfix
19:37:15 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
20:35:01 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:51:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:56:38 -!- imode has joined.
20:58:18 <esowiki> [[Footsteps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79569&oldid=79567 * Quintopia * (+8) edit interp for increased utility as module
21:54:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheThunderGuyS * New user account
22:09:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79570&oldid=79560 * TheThunderGuyS * (+389) add myself
22:09:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79571&oldid=78295 * TheThunderGuyS * (+0) Correct the name of "El Brainfuck"
22:10:08 <esowiki> [[User:TheThunderGuyS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79572 * TheThunderGuyS * (+1) Created page with "h"
22:53:44 -!- Arcorann_ has joined.
23:25:59 <fizzie> Made a new plot while at it: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.dist.html
23:26:04 <fizzie> (Shame about that day 1 of 2020 though.)
23:38:53 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:59:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:40:24 -!- magma has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:53:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:54:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:55:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:11:50 <esowiki> [[Footsteps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79573&oldid=79569 * Quintopia * (+5) only import re if calling directly
02:12:23 <esowiki> [[Footsteps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79574&oldid=79573 * Quintopia * (-1) excess whitespace
02:13:16 <esowiki> [[Footsteps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79575&oldid=79574 * Quintopia * (+12) fix code formatting
02:28:49 <nakilon> and pretty much unexpected to see peaks around just 3 minutes
02:29:15 <nakilon> now I guess the website is brigaded by ACM/topcoder guys and I really had no chance ..D
02:29:22 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79576&oldid=79546 * Quintopia * (+101) silberjoder
02:30:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79577&oldid=79576 * Quintopia * (+20) whoops
02:30:30 <nakilon> wtf is that peak in bottom two plots?
02:33:03 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/h3TuUBu.png
03:27:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:30:59 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79578&oldid=79488 * Nakilon * (+50) added Factorial example
03:36:00 <Arcorann_> nakilon: The server died at the start of day 1
03:39:57 <nakilon> befunge's factorial example foes not utilize the 'g' instruction
03:40:03 <nakilon> so my example is different
03:41:45 <nakilon> they unfold the input down to 1 and then fold it; my stack size is used in the same amount but not for the same reason
03:43:06 <nakilon> just because 'a' is duplicating, not swapping
03:44:17 <nakilon> I thought about random access swap instead of random access dup previously but I'm not sure it would be always practical
03:44:39 <nakilon> could make a neat quicksort implementation though
04:06:25 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
04:28:03 -!- imode has joined.
05:00:58 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79579&oldid=79578 * Nakilon * (+81) Fibonacci example added
05:05:38 <nakilon> damn, I thought Fibonacci starts with 1 1
05:10:20 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79580&oldid=79579 * Nakilon * (+0) /* Nth Fibonacci number */ the sequence starts with 0, not 1
05:10:56 <nakilon> this bot is lightning fast
05:56:14 <int-e> nakilon: Well the usual definition uses F_0 = 0, F_1 = F_2 = 1
05:56:38 <int-e> so the question is which of those is the start of the sequence
05:57:11 <int-e> (picking F_0 = 0 induces nice properties like that n | m (n divides m) implies F_n | F_m)
06:03:55 <int-e> This is relatively easy to see if you know a bit of modular arithmetic.
06:04:30 <shachaf> int-e: Oh man, that's great.
06:04:45 <shachaf> I always said the sequence starts with 1,1
06:04:55 <shachaf> But this is a good way to settle that argument.
06:04:57 <int-e> Namely, modulo F_n, the sequence starts with 0,1; now look around F_n: F_n = 0 (mod F_n), F_m = a (mod F_n) for some a. So at this point you repeat the Fibonacci sequence, but multiplied by a.
06:05:16 <int-e> F_(2n) = a*0 = 0 (mod F_n)
06:05:31 <int-e> F_(3n) = a^2*0 = 0 (mod F_n), and so on.
06:06:19 <int-e> You can use the same argument backwards (F_(n-2) = -F_(n-1) + F_n) to get it for negative numbers as well.
06:07:54 <nakilon> I want a diagram of which languages are used to make reference implementations of the eso langs
06:08:40 <int-e> Python, C/C++, Haskell? Also, whichever language the implementor currently wants to learn.
06:08:43 <nakilon> because I've noticed this one is made in Ruby too https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hexagony
06:09:16 <int-e> Oh yes, I did forget Perl (and thus Ruby which is different but in the same "total mess" category to my mind)
06:09:16 <nakilon> people don't decide what to learn randomly
06:09:19 <shachaf> I guess C/C++ is some sort of quotient language.
06:09:32 <nakilon> they chose from what is available and availabilities are expanding
06:09:39 <nakilon> and languages are improving
06:10:08 <nakilon> int-e lol your imagination of Ruby is opposite from the truth
06:10:18 <nakilon> it's the most comprehensive language
06:10:35 <int-e> but comprehensive != comprehensible
06:10:45 <nakilon> that's why things are usually made first in ruby and then pythonazis port them to their language
06:10:59 <nakilon> int-e I'm not native English speaker
06:11:01 <imode> we doin' language wars again?
06:11:47 <int-e> To clarify, I have never used Ruby, so I obviously I can't be objective about it.
06:11:57 <nakilon> I'm just saying I I would like to see a diagram
06:12:08 <imode> what defines a "pythonazi".
06:12:18 <imode> I use Python, am I a Pythonazi.
06:12:33 <nakilon> "the only language I know is da best" guys
06:12:39 <int-e> nakilon: "comprehensive" means all-encompassing, embedding features from all around. "comprehensible" means easy to understand.
06:12:41 <imode> seems like you're one of those.
06:13:10 <nakilon> you are not even hiding that you tell lie about me
06:13:50 <imode> you took a stance on ruby and called out python. what else do you want me to conclude.
06:13:50 <nakilon> lies is the main weapon of haters
06:14:03 <imode> ruby good python bad
06:14:14 <int-e> I thought we were having a discussion, apparently not.
06:14:49 <nakilon> because someone started the topic of language design
06:15:59 <imode> watching you explode is fun. you certainly aren't a regular.
06:16:36 <int-e> I'm unsure what happened here.
06:17:33 <nakilon> dude started doing false accusations on me
06:17:38 <shachaf> I refuse to use Ruby because it converts all my screenshots to JPEG.
06:17:40 <imode> int-e: someone with a lack of a grasp on the english language took issue with what you said about ruby, called some people pythonazis, I asked what that meant, his head exploded.
06:17:51 <shachaf> I prefer languages like Visual Basic that stick with BMP format.
06:17:58 <imode> and now thinks imaginary people are telling lies about 'im.
06:18:05 <int-e> I don't hate Ruby. I can't. I haven't used it. I have a prejudice against it that means I won't pick it up voluntarily. That's all.
06:18:22 <imode> ruby is alright. people go too far sometimes with DSL-oriented stuff.
06:18:26 <imode> sinatra is a nice library.
06:18:38 <nakilon> lmao, you behave like real teenager; what's wrong about english language?
06:19:00 <int-e> nakilon: Do you know what projection is...
06:19:11 <imode> you can't parse things correctly so you read intent correctly. people do it. it's fine.
06:19:22 <imode> s/intent correctly/intent incorrectly
06:19:23 <kmc> I used to care a lot about programming languages
06:19:25 <imode> there I go projecting again.
06:19:44 <kmc> now I spend my time growing mushrooms
06:19:56 <imode> but are they ISO standard mushrooms.
06:20:19 <kmc> fungot: is there an ISO standard for mushrooms?
06:20:19 <fungot> kmc: we did not allow a motion for the interinstitutional agreement with the binding part a. parliament will recall and the record shows that during the vote on that issue the european parliament and fnord should be able to do this.
06:20:34 <imode> seems like a vote is required.
06:21:01 <int-e> fungot saves the day once again
06:21:01 <fungot> int-e: mr president, first i want to concentrate on his proposal in paragraph 6 about the absence of european union budgetary absurdity. the commission does not accept amendment no 3
06:21:06 <fungot> int-e: mr president, you cannot say, on behalf of my group is very unhappy, to say " yes" vote. there are occasions when " a one size fits all' legislation which ignores the lessons of poverty i, ii and iii, target methods, must be called to account for the spending of the structural fnord, because of the specific directives cover both these spheres of cooperation.
06:21:08 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
06:24:01 <nakilon> people hate those who can what they can't
06:29:55 <int-e> `learn An opinion is but the first step towards a fully fledged flame war.
06:29:57 <HackEso> Learned 'opinion': An opinion is but the first step towards a fully fledged flame war.
06:30:46 <imode> I remember when I get used to get heated about languages. that was when I knew one language and thought my opinion extended to things I barely used.
06:31:18 <nakilon> why then you keep behaving like that?
06:31:39 <nakilon> I didn't touch you and you started false accusations
06:32:34 <nakilon> not that I don't know the answer to this question -- I just wonder how exactly you are going to pretend
06:33:41 <int-e> "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." -- Bjarne Stroustrup
06:34:44 <shachaf> Presumably that's whatever the dual of an inclusive or is.
06:35:08 <int-e> oh wait, never mind.
06:35:20 <shachaf> Where the claim is that languages have at least one of those properties.
06:35:24 <int-e> (inclusive, not exclusive)
06:35:43 <shachaf> Maybe that's just a regular inclusive or.
06:36:11 <nakilon> the funny sentence you once write does not have to be true to make people repeat it for ages
06:36:18 <shachaf> Whatever. C++ is so far from Pareto-optimal and it gets farther with every new version.
06:37:26 <nakilon> the more correct the sentence is the more hard it is to be understood and remembered
06:39:33 <int-e> . o O ( But the converse is not true. )
06:40:23 <imode> just wondering if I can exhaust this conversation tree by uttering random shit.
06:40:56 <nakilon> try to add something valuable
06:41:33 <zzo38> O, is that what Stroustrup said? Probably it is true, even if not entirely absolute (for various reasons).
06:48:45 <int-e> All absolute truths are false. I think.
06:49:26 <int-e> (Not quite paradoxical.)
06:52:27 <zzo38> I don't think so. Mathematical truths can be true (although, if you try to write it in words or symbols without a context of the system in use, then that representation isn't an absolute meaning, since it is only a representation in words or symbols).
06:58:18 <int-e> zzo38: It's classically false, of course. Assuming it were true, it should be false, which is a contradiction. So it must be false... and there's no contradiction at all (which means it's not a paradox).
07:00:11 <int-e> On a different note... today's AoC twist seems to be unfriendly towards Haskell (I actually used C for that part).
07:04:57 <nakilon> there should be a language that is self-modifying but on itself
07:05:15 <imode> you'll find some of that in largely homoiconic languages.
07:05:16 <nakilon> the more data go through the more code changes
07:07:28 <nakilon> like here http://www.zachtronics.com/infinifactory/
07:08:12 <nakilon> sometimes to solve the puzzle or to golf it the program was finishing building itself already in runtime
07:08:39 <int-e> "the more data go through the more code changes" reminds me of the runner-ups in http://underhanded-c.org/_page_id_16.html
07:12:10 <nakilon> actually the space of the Infinifactory reminds the funge space
07:12:45 <nakilon> that's the basic thing in other Zachtronix games like SpaceChem and OpusMagnum
07:14:06 <nakilon> so the solution in these games is a... coordinates of blocks in 2d or 3d space, like instructions in funge
07:15:01 <nakilon> the huge Conway's Life machines do something similar when they send planers from one side to another
07:15:59 <nakilon> in SpaceChem the input enters the field and you build the rules to move it further
07:17:15 <nakilon> in TIS-100 the data space isn't a big grid with "code" placed wherever you want, but 9 (or 12, I don't remember) modules
07:19:21 <nakilon> so imagine you have strings going from stdin to stdout through a space and you describe the regions that process the data when it comes in
07:20:08 <nakilon> hm, I moved from the idea of self-modifying to some another stuff
07:20:20 <nakilon> I just think zachtronix games are inspirational here
08:23:05 <oren> I have had tcc crash compiling one of the tools for my font
08:23:22 <oren> how can I locate where tcc is crashing
08:25:56 <imode> compile it with debugging symbols and run it in a debugger.
08:26:59 <nakilon> is it possible to find all wiki pages that belong to two specified categories?
08:28:59 <nakilon> I guess this is it https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Multi-Category_Search but I don't know how to find even if this extension is available
08:39:58 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Version ... nope
08:42:59 <nakilon> I'm trying to use a tool then to parse the category pages I need but it throws "json parse error" that tried to parse html
08:43:32 <zzo38> Look at the MediaWiki documentation. I know there is a API.
08:45:54 -!- arseniiv has joined.
08:47:46 <oren> #include <fcntl.h>
08:47:46 <oren> struct bdfinfo;
08:47:47 <oren> struct bdfinfo fontinfo;
08:47:54 <oren> this is all that is needed
08:48:12 <oren> if you don't include fcntl.h it works fine
08:48:27 <nakilon> the website throws The action specified by the URL is invalid. on #<MediaWiktory::Wikipedia::Actions::Query {"meta"=>"siteinfo"}>
08:48:36 <oren> or, well, it gives an error message, but the point is it doesn't crash
08:49:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:52:43 <oren> running the preprocessing step separately from compilation prevents the error
08:55:13 <shachaf> oren: I get "it.c:3: error: unknown type size"
08:58:45 -!- joast has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:58:49 <nakilon> nevermind, another library works
09:15:58 <oren> yeah it appears to be some sort of interaction between the version of TCC i'm using and the version of gnu stdlib I'm using
09:18:00 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:30:29 -!- magma has joined.
09:50:46 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
09:51:22 -!- spruit11 has joined.
10:13:04 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
10:26:35 <nakilon> so I hope I won't get tired too soon filling this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14_y5yUEU9yrb-vuFzxwuJKBP8ri5ruav8SmD0qEysbs/edit?usp=sharing
10:30:19 <oren> #define __END_DECLS
10:30:20 <oren> typedef unsigned int __uint32_t;
10:30:20 <oren> struct bdfinfo;
10:30:20 <oren> struct bdfinfo fontinfo;
10:44:19 <shachaf> oren: Still just an error.
10:45:44 <shachaf> In both Ubuntu tcc 0.9.27 and latest git tcc.
10:46:04 <shachaf> I have run into other tcc bugs, though.
10:49:07 <oren> looks like it was fixed in .27
10:59:21 <nakilon> https://scott.mn/2014/08/25/coding_in_notepad/
11:17:55 <nakilon> ok, I'm tired finishing the 2000 year; from 40 languages only 15 are uniq by author and have the reference interpreter
11:21:11 <nakilon> the full list is 1300 languages that is approximately 400, even if I take 10 per year that would be...200 more entries that is... 10 hours of work
11:36:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:40:26 <nakilon> the mentioned "The action specified by the URL is invalid" error was because I passed the url to esolang website without the '/w/api.php' (that should be included when using mediawiki api libraries)
12:02:31 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79581&oldid=73077 * Baidicoot * (-2)
12:16:00 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
14:13:08 -!- harha_ has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in).
14:13:28 -!- harha_ has joined.
14:48:44 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:52:45 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
15:14:41 -!- SeasonsBeatings has changed nick to grumble.
15:27:18 -!- rain1 has joined.
16:16:25 -!- magma has quit (Quit: bye).
17:24:03 -!- joast has joined.
17:40:20 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
17:56:14 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:36:15 -!- imode has joined.
18:53:18 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:55:04 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:57:26 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
19:31:02 <int-e> . o O ( forced to always play the same note... flute player blows whistle on conductor )
20:07:04 -!- MDude has joined.
20:09:17 -!- rain1 has joined.
22:04:59 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:37:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:06:24 -!- tromp has quit.
23:12:13 <fizzie> Party Wall is such a funny term. It comes up in UK planning documents a lot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_wall#England_and_Wales), but my immediate connotations are always to some sort of a BBS-era Twitter equivalent.
23:12:30 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:24:53 -!- tromp has joined.
23:25:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:26:39 -!- tromp has joined.
23:27:13 -!- asie has joined.
23:41:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:39 -!- tromp has joined.
00:29:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:31:51 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:45:07 <kmc> fizzie: heh
01:26:34 <esowiki> [[Silberjoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79582&oldid=72294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) rm redirect
01:32:01 <esowiki> [[CALESYTA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79583&oldid=59455 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* External resources */ Wayback
01:52:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:54:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
01:54:40 -!- imode has joined.
01:55:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:55:34 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:03:06 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79584&oldid=53505 * Quintopia * (+31) /* Interpreters written in Python */
02:17:48 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:25:35 -!- tromp has joined.
02:29:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:11:15 -!- Lykaina has joined.
04:13:34 -!- tromp has joined.
04:14:33 <Lykaina> it's not esoteric, but i like talking about it here
04:15:21 <Lykaina> a programming language written in arduino sketch
04:15:59 <Lykaina> it can be run without a computer present
04:16:40 <Lykaina> it can be run without a pc present
04:18:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:19:13 <Lykaina> the arduino sketch is the interpreter
04:28:10 <Lykaina> 0000,t_get,@00; 0000,t_put,@00; 0000,r_sub; 0000,stop_; FFFF,_eof_;
04:43:27 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:07:48 -!- tromp has joined.
05:12:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
05:20:37 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:23:09 -!- glowcoil has joined.
05:23:22 -!- sprocklem has joined.
05:24:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
05:24:59 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
05:25:11 <int-e> fungot: do you like cellular automata?
05:25:11 <fungot> int-e: i like puns. they're punny.
05:25:52 <int-e> Does it count as an eerily coherent answer when it's so short, hmm...
05:27:36 -!- adu has joined.
05:30:24 <nakilon> he was automatically learning in real time and even knew such things that wasn't told
05:31:26 <nakilon> for example, one person asked another person "hey, how long are you using IRC?" and the bot joined the conversation and said "6 years"
05:32:32 <nakilon> delta23 it was 11 years ago, 4 computers ago and in another country (
05:32:57 <nakilon> it was 30 lines of code and few years of IRC logs feed to it
05:33:39 <nakilon> only logs from the channels I was in, so it fitted the speaking style, topics, etc.
05:34:22 <delta23> cobe? it's a markov chain bot iirc
05:34:25 <delta23> it can learn from irc logs
05:34:44 <nakilon> idk why everyone are saying about markov chains
05:36:29 <delta23> cobe was called megaHAL before
05:37:17 <nakilon> once I also put that bot to a chat of my town and it pissed of them so much they were asking him out to kick his face and tried to investigate who he is
05:39:03 <nakilon> after few days they started suspecting he's a bot so I added a random time delays before replies and it got smooth again
05:39:26 <nakilon> I mean not random but message.length * 0.5 or something
05:40:14 <imode> so you made it shorter.
05:40:28 <imode> oh, that's the length of the message. got the source?
05:40:58 <nakilon> it was emulating the time spent on typing
05:41:45 <nakilon> every time he was making a response that didn't make sense I asked it to give me debug info about it
05:41:59 <nakilon> it printed some variants of responses and I tweaked it
05:42:23 <nakilon> so the euristics were calibrated
05:43:24 <nakilon> also it was adding some variability, like randomly replacing smiles or editing punctuation
05:43:51 <nakilon> and remembering what it already responded previously to avoid recent phrases repetitions
05:44:43 <imode> cool, interested in seeing the source.
05:45:31 <int-e> Well, fungot's not designed to make sense, it just interprets a Markov chain and does not take context into account (beyond recognizing that it was mentioned).
05:45:31 <fungot> int-e: just strange hooks it's the same assertion. the futility of undertaking exercises aimed at finding the quadrature of the circle
05:46:00 <imode> doesn't matter, I maintain rails apps for work.
05:46:05 <int-e> It's written in Befunge which is a pretty good excuse for keeping it simple.
05:46:22 <nakilon> about the context -- I don't remember for sure did I implement it or not but there was something about taking in account previous messages
05:46:33 <imode> fungot is written in befunge? is it like, compiled down to befunge or written in befunge
05:46:33 <fungot> imode: who's lurking? fnord riastradh most of the problems we experience. am i right about a typo in makeick.bat in an editor yet?
05:46:35 <nakilon> so it was like continuing the topic sometimes
05:46:39 <nakilon> instead of being forced to change it
05:47:03 <imode> if written in it.. that's impressive.
05:47:15 <nakilon> > good excuse for keeping it simple.
05:47:17 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
05:47:21 <nakilon> and complex and the same time )
05:47:22 <int-e> fizzie's the author and I'm sure it's written in it.
05:47:27 <delta23> some irc bots i found so far written in ruby:
05:47:39 <imode> iirc the markov chain bot I used a while back was written in C++.
05:47:47 <imode> that thing was fun. you could train it on channels.
05:47:48 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
05:48:04 <imode> that is fucking impressive.
05:48:31 <nakilon> delta23 it was years before I faced the Ruby in production so my code was far from being easily reused and so called as a library/framework
05:48:48 <int-e> imode: it's a funge-bot
05:48:53 <nakilon> we were just "hacking the irc"
05:49:04 <int-e> I never asked but I'd be surprised if that didn't inspire the name.
06:01:43 -!- tromp has joined.
06:05:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:18:02 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb).
06:23:23 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:30:55 <nakilon> there was also a problem of some people disliking the bot for metioning them
06:31:35 <nakilon> so the logs had to be preprocessed to find the nicknames and then replace them in messages with words like "you" or "he", I don't remember exactly what I did there
06:32:20 <nakilon> it was harder in Russian that it might be in English because verbs have genders
06:34:46 <nakilon> so it was hard to tell whether bot was a boy or a girl, lol
06:35:51 <delta23> nakilon: was the bot coherent? or did it sometimes not make sense when it replied?
06:36:39 <nakilon> coherent enough to make some people believe that I tell him what to say
06:36:52 <nakilon> but as I said I was tweaking him everytime he was saying a nonsense
06:37:12 <nakilon> so there were tables with some numeric adjustements
06:38:05 <nakilon> like multipliers for ranking formulas that depended on the length of the message and such
06:38:40 -!- sprocklem has joined.
06:39:44 <nakilon> for example, when you remove the trash words from the sentence, like "of", "or", "and", "in", etc. the length of the messages can change a lot and it's another place to tweak those constants
06:40:33 <nakilon> and when the reply is short enough, like "lol" then it does not have to make sense because it's generally applicable to anywhere
06:41:04 <nakilon> messages with smileys were more likely to be replied to messages with smileys
06:43:35 <nakilon> it was funny when it started to speak with someone else's bot that was rather a reply bot that was speaking in memes and trolling
06:44:07 <nakilon> it wasn't flooding because bot emulated time spent on typing
06:44:33 <nakilon> and the conversation always came to an end because it was trying not to repeat itself so it was running out of words
06:45:38 <nakilon> but the more it was staying in that channel the more he learned local puns and triggered that another bot often, so they had such spontaneous conversations, lol
06:47:25 <nakilon> in that IRC network there was a weird channel that had no one except of some bot that always replied, and no one knew who is his author
06:48:01 <nakilon> it was just a channel with that bot ready to talk to anyone for 24/7 for years and it reminded the mistery of who was the author, at least for me
06:49:03 <nakilon> I could probably make such channel too for my bot but I didn't have a server to host it -- it was just in my autorun ..D
06:55:41 -!- tromp has joined.
06:58:52 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
07:02:07 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
07:02:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:07:24 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:07:35 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
07:16:34 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:19:39 -!- tromp has joined.
07:19:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:53:36 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:00:15 <zzo38> How many assemblers have the equivalent of COME FROM? (It is something I often use when writing programs in assembly language in order to make jump tables. A MIX assembler I wrote has not only COME FROM but also NEXT FROM, too. How common is NEXT FROM in any assembler?)
08:01:18 <zzo38> (In some assemblers, it is possible to implement this by the use of macros, but some don't support this even if they do have macros.)
08:32:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:46:43 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:01:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:03:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:09:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:15:12 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
09:21:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:43:34 -!- arseniiv has joined.
11:03:48 -!- user24 has joined.
12:05:25 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
12:43:56 -!- FreeFull has joined.
12:45:44 <fizzie> int-e: Just to confirm, yes, "fungot" is a contraction from "(be)FUNGe bOT".
12:45:44 <fungot> fizzie: i've been working on a scheme team? ( you're on both channels... i'm fnord the ickiness. the form was fairly informative,
12:56:59 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:58:06 -!- tromp has joined.
13:11:25 <Arcorann> https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/google-develops-an-ai-that-can-learn-both-chess-and-pac-man/
13:39:38 <esowiki> [[Golunar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79585&oldid=36978 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) Hdr, cats
13:56:04 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:56:32 <nakilon> google's AI always were fakes
13:56:45 <nakilon> they are just selling their TPU units
13:57:12 <nakilon> monetizing the tensorflow framework, etc.
13:59:11 <nakilon> that "Starcraft AI" was debunked and was shown to cheat in every minute of the match but while the article "wow, Starcraft AI is cool and won a fair game of minds!" was reposted millions of times the debunking videos were not reposted because that's not fun for the mass
14:07:49 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:23:31 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
14:23:41 <myname> uhm, a starcraft ai is not comparable to a chess ai
14:24:07 <myname> chess is a game where both players have full knowledge, starcraft is not
14:24:51 <myname> you cannot just fake a new piece into existence
14:25:28 <Arcorann> There's a paper linked if you want to read about it
14:34:37 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:42:20 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:42:42 -!- palaiologos has joined.
14:44:32 -!- TheLie has joined.
14:45:28 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:46:42 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
14:48:12 -!- palaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:08:47 -!- adu has joined.
15:13:59 <esowiki> [[Cut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79586&oldid=78047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) /* Python implementation */ cats
15:14:53 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
15:16:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79587&oldid=75989 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Unsigned
15:19:08 <esowiki> [[Clunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79588&oldid=76689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+274) Add some sort of Hello World program
15:19:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:20:35 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79589&oldid=58799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) Direct section link
15:46:36 <fizzie> I have nothing against cellular automata, but I don't think a hex grid is really enough to make one memorable. At least last year's late one had that funky recursive grid.
15:46:56 -!- Ohg has joined.
15:50:35 <int-e> but the main reason I asked that this was the second or third CA this year, depending on how you count
15:53:05 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:00:49 <esowiki> [[42]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79590&oldid=71665 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Implications / Speculation verging on the mystical */ Cat
16:01:47 <esowiki> [[42]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79591&oldid=79590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
16:23:21 -!- MDude has joined.
16:24:14 <fizzie> I counted 11 and 17, and now 24.
16:30:35 <fizzie> They are an AoC staple, though. I've been doing 2018 (done 1..23 now) on the side, and by my count at least days 12 and 18 were like that, and possibly also 17. I guess last year there was maybe just the one, but then again half the days were Intcode.
16:41:15 -!- Ohg has quit.
17:00:39 <arseniiv> <fizzie> At least last year's late one had that funky recursive grid. => oh! What was the day? Recursive CAs is a mystery to me, at least I’ll have an example what they may be like
17:03:33 <fizzie> arseniiv: https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/24 but it may not necessarily be what you're looking for. Also, the recursive-ish part is part 2.
17:04:06 <fizzie> (It's thematically linked to https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/20 part 2.)
17:04:55 <fizzie> Oh, it's also one of the two days I made a p5.js animation for last year. https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc-2019-p5/day24.html
17:09:11 -!- lm978 has joined.
17:10:00 <lm978> If CAs really are an AoC staple, it would explain how people are able to implement those weird neighborhoods in a minute or two.
17:11:02 <lm978> I only recently realized that I could use a dictionary instead of a nested list with complicated expansion logic.
17:11:32 <lm978> With this one, the main annoyance for me was debugging the offset-grid representation.
17:13:36 <fizzie> The bit that took me the longest this time around was realizing there's a difference between "more than 2" and "2 or more".
17:20:03 -!- TheLie has joined.
17:33:20 -!- adu has joined.
18:01:12 <arseniiv> <fizzie> but it may not necessarily be what you're looking for => unfortunately :'(
18:22:08 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:24:48 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
18:39:44 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:42:31 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:45:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:45:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:00:46 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine).
19:01:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
19:12:09 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
19:12:52 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:13:13 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
19:22:04 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:22:52 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:26:54 -!- adu has joined.
19:30:26 -!- aloril has joined.
19:39:35 -!- delta23 has joined.
20:27:51 -!- TheLie has joined.
20:30:50 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
20:45:46 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:51:28 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
20:57:36 -!- imode has joined.
21:37:22 <esowiki> [[C+++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79592&oldid=78454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) This is a stub
21:37:48 <esowiki> [[C+++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79593&oldid=79592 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) hdr lvl
21:41:49 <esowiki> [[2017]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79594&oldid=57872 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* See Also */ cats
21:42:01 <esowiki> [[2017]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79595&oldid=79594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* See Also */ What about 2015?
21:43:07 <esowiki> [[2015]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79596&oldid=65103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+146) See also, cats
21:43:36 <esowiki> [[2014]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79597&oldid=57871 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* See Also */ Does noone else know of 2015?
21:45:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:45:48 <esowiki> [[Feta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79598&oldid=63913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Implementation */ See also, Cat, Rm Extra Indentation
21:46:07 <esowiki> [[Pizza]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79599&oldid=79352 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Implementation */ See(also);
21:46:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:48:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:48:42 <esowiki> [[PASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5493) Create another language
21:49:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79601&oldid=79468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* P */ +[[PASM]]
21:50:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79602&oldid=79469 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* Languages */ +[[PASM]]
21:52:12 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79603 * Quintopia * (+4532) Antigram
21:52:51 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79604&oldid=79603 * Quintopia * (-28) not known TC
21:53:17 <esowiki> [[Template:Distinguish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79605&oldid=60774 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Noinclude
21:53:46 <esowiki> [[Template:Distinguish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79606&oldid=79605 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fix
21:54:41 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79607&oldid=79601 * Quintopia * (+15) /* A */
21:55:52 -!- TheLie has joined.
22:03:14 <esowiki> [[Suicide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79608&oldid=55504 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Simple addition */ CAT
22:14:03 -!- clog has joined.
22:54:32 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:21:25 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
23:24:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:42:49 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:43:48 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:44:16 -!- Arcorann has joined.
00:03:09 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:12:52 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:07 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79609&oldid=79604 * Quintopia * (+40) i had forgotten the name of this category
00:39:48 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:46:36 <esowiki> [[Small s.c.r.i.p.t.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79610&oldid=42808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Link()
00:48:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MADH95 * New user account
00:49:33 <esowiki> [[Reversible Bitfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79611&oldid=71570 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* See also */ cat
00:52:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79612&oldid=79570 * MADH95 * (+340)
00:53:25 <esowiki> [[Suicide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79613&oldid=79608 * Quintopia * (+586) TCness proof
00:53:46 <esowiki> [[Suicide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79614&oldid=79613 * Quintopia * (+6) /* Turing completeness */
00:54:23 <esowiki> [[P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79615&oldid=70953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) links & typo
00:54:44 <esowiki> [[Suicide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79616&oldid=79614 * Quintopia * (-43) opening statement
00:57:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Boat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79617&oldid=41259 * MADH95 * (+152)
00:57:23 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79618&oldid=79609 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Links
00:58:01 <esowiki> [[Graph rewriting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79619&oldid=44917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
01:01:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79620&oldid=76563 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+209) Reply belatedly
01:02:54 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:07:18 <esowiki> [[Methesis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79621&oldid=40954 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* External resources */ Deadlink. cat
01:10:29 <esowiki> [[Boat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79622&oldid=65028 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link
01:16:58 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79623&oldid=79140 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Edge cases */ m
01:22:29 -!- lm978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:56 <esowiki> [[Fargo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79624 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2159) Lang game
01:49:16 <esowiki> [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79625&oldid=79624 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Built-in functions */ fix
01:49:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79626&oldid=79607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* F */ +[[Fargo]]
01:50:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79627&oldid=79602 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) m /* Languages */
03:38:26 <Lykaina> i've discovered that my ECHIDNA interpreter gets messy and unusable when i run it on an Arduino M0 clone, the only *ino i have with enough ram
03:39:07 <Lykaina> to fix the problem, i had to remove graphics support
03:39:44 <Lykaina> i'm fine with connecting it to a serial term
03:41:26 <Lykaina> if i can just figure out the name of the secondary serial port internally...
03:43:03 <Lykaina> it's not Serial1 i don't think
04:00:59 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:01:18 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79628&oldid=79618 * Quintopia * (+1507) implementation
04:02:05 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79629&oldid=79628 * Quintopia * (-3) formatting
04:02:25 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79630&oldid=79584 * Quintopia * (+15) /* Interpreters written in Python */
04:03:10 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79631&oldid=79630 * Quintopia * (+60)
04:13:38 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79632&oldid=79631 * Quintopia * (+24) /* Interpreters written in Python */
04:46:32 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
05:03:51 -!- aloril has joined.
05:12:57 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:18:08 -!- aloril has joined.
05:34:00 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:36:49 <nakilon> it does not have to be stdin to move through the code
05:37:10 <nakilon> it should be the program moving through the input, like a creature
05:49:00 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
06:09:03 <int-e> hmmm... youtube really loves its autoplay doesn't it... they moved the control somewhere else *again*
06:10:33 <imode> to discourage you from turning it off.
06:14:36 <int-e> Yeah, that's the only motivation I can see.
06:15:44 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79633&oldid=76636 * Quintopia * (+34) Computational class category
06:18:37 <shachaf> But having autoplay on increases engagement!
06:19:05 <zzo38> It should be some command in the browser. Add a "pause application" command. The document can still be scrolled while it is paused, and forms can be filled, but scripts, CSS animations, animated pictures, audio, and video, will not work. (This is different than disabling scripts; you can pause and resume it.)
06:22:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck equivalents]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79634 * Quintopia * (+201) Objection
06:23:34 <int-e> shachaf: Do you honestly believe that...
06:23:53 <shachaf> Yes, people probably watch more videos when autoplay is on.
06:23:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79635&oldid=79634 * Quintopia * (+1) Whoops
06:24:05 <shachaf> Or at the very least they click around more.
06:24:24 <int-e> shachaf: Do you mean people watch more videos, or that more videos are played on a computer that nobody's paying attention to?
06:24:25 <shachaf> I don't think this is a good metric to be optimizing for, and I always turn it off, and even if it accidentally autoplays an interesting video I refuse to watch it on principle.
06:42:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Queuenanimous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79636&oldid=78274 * Quintopia * (+238) Reduction is wrong
06:42:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79637&oldid=79636 * Quintopia * (+62) My signature disappeared
06:56:55 <oren> I sometimes go to youtubers i like, hit all videos, turn adblocker off and autoplay on
07:09:30 -!- sprocklem has joined.
07:26:54 <esowiki> [[Antigram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79638&oldid=79629 * Quintopia * (-61) That was something from an earlier version
07:29:33 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!).
07:30:49 -!- moony has joined.
08:06:31 <int-e> (While I'm griping, they also make it really hard to play just a single video from a playlist.)
08:07:40 <shachaf> Without it autoplaying to the next video?
08:07:51 <shachaf> I guess the way to do it is to edit the URL to get rid of the playlist.
08:08:36 <int-e> shachaf: yes, that's what I've been doing
08:08:52 <nakilon> https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/news/2020/12/25/ruby-3-0-0-released/
08:35:37 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:25:10 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
09:30:38 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:40:52 -!- arseniiv has joined.
11:14:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:47:39 <fizzie> Hmm, does it actually go to the next video automatically from a playlist? I've never noticed that.
11:47:59 <shachaf> I don't know a way to stop it, anyway.
11:48:39 <fizzie> Hmm, yeah, I guess it does.
11:48:41 <shachaf> Are you going to the solstice thing this weekend?
11:50:18 <fizzie> There's an "add to queue" function in the "show full playlist" interface, and if you add just that one video (and nothing else) to the queue, it plays just that one.
11:50:26 <fizzie> Though it may well be faster to just edit the URL.
11:51:36 <myname> youtube also seem to have random bugs in its playlist feature
11:52:20 <myname> like, if i finished a playlist and go to my subscriptions, the thumbnail does not belong to the playlist at all. and sometimes it even adds videos to it that i didn't put there
12:06:18 <nakilon> 14:47:39 <fizzie> Hmm, does it actually go to the next video automatically from a playlist?
12:06:26 <nakilon> yeah and that's how some shitty channels do
12:06:40 <nakilon> they create playlists putting someone's popular video in it and then their videos
12:06:58 <nakilon> and this playlist is randomly starting playing for you
12:08:11 <nakilon> myname when my Favourites reached 500 items Youtube started throwing a page-long backtraces with full paths on their linux servers
12:08:33 <nakilon> something about the "borg" internal library
12:10:24 <nakilon> interesting, pretty sure I posted it to /r/softwaregore but the post seems to be removed
12:10:48 <nakilon> did Google care to remove the post exposing their backtrace? ..D
12:20:16 <fizzie> Certainly not only because it mentions Borg, that's so public there's been talks about it and all.
12:21:48 <fizzie> Smells a little bit like a bug-on-a-bug to get a stack trace though, most Google error pages are just those "something went wrong" kind of ones.
12:22:31 <nakilon> having the library called "borg" isn't secret
12:23:34 <nakilon> anything exposing the internals of otherwise closed system is prohibited by default in such companies and that's a normal practice
12:23:46 <fizzie> Sure (that's why those error pages *are* generic), I just wouldn't expect them to go to the trouble of getting Reddit posts removed.
12:24:02 <nakilon> I just didn't expect that the post would be removed, I really can't find it now
12:28:27 <shachaf> int-e: "mock" reminded me suddenly of _Max und Moritz_ -- did you read it?
12:29:02 <shachaf> "He, heraus! Du Ziegen-Böck! / Schneider, Schneider, meck, meck, meck!"
12:32:45 <shachaf> Oh man, I forgot how that book ended.
12:35:23 <fizzie> Speaking of how things end, is that thing that animates on the advent calendar a hurricane?
12:37:12 <shachaf> Oh. Do you need to play to see an animation?
12:37:26 <shachaf> I don't anything but I think someone may have said something about a sea monster.
12:37:33 <fizzie> Yes, I think you need to fully solve it.
12:37:35 <nakilon> fizzie which percentage of those who solve at least one task have solved all of them? per year
12:39:13 <fizzie> The sea monster is static and appeared (I think) after the sea-monster-related day. But I think normally there's a final form after 50 stars that has some sort of a thematically appropriate animation (like in 2019 it shows your starship flitting from planet to planet, and in 2018 there's a moving sleigh), I just can't quite figure out what this year's one is representing.
12:39:58 <fizzie> Having a hurricane strike your holiday resort after you've finally gotten there might be on-brand for 2020 though. Not that I guess many people would be traveling in the first place.
12:40:07 <shachaf> Looks like a hurricane or something to me.
12:40:48 <shachaf> Oh, maybe that's it, I haven't played enough Zelda to know.
12:41:27 <nakilon> I mean do you have youtube link?
12:41:50 <int-e> shachaf: it's the storm that turned us around on the 12th
12:42:32 <shachaf> I only did one problem the whole month.
12:42:50 <shachaf> I already closed the video.
12:43:59 <int-e> Oh, I misread the context as usual.
12:44:19 <Arcorann> The sea monster is animated after 50 stars as well
12:46:43 <int-e> The link is https://adventofcode.com/2020/ but that doesn't help you. I don't know where the video is, presumably youtube will find it easily if you go looking for it. Or maybe twitter.
12:47:33 <fizzie> Arcorann: Completely missed that.
12:48:00 <fizzie> int-e: Right, I guess it's just that known storm, not a last extra disaster.
12:59:03 <nakilon> I got it, that's just being a fragile dick because someone knows more about image formats
12:59:20 <nakilon> such a childish behaviour for IRC
13:01:28 <nakilon> dude with the same nickname tried to start a flame about it few days ago when another one was triggered about languages
13:36:58 <fizzie> fungot: Did you notice I put on my fungot T-shirt since it's a celebra-day?
13:36:58 <fungot> fizzie: ( that t code will just give a bad example. ( ( ref-command set-font) " 9x15") *poof*
13:37:19 <fizzie> fungot: Come now, you shouldn't be ashamed of your own code.
13:37:19 <fungot> fizzie: for some reason my own ones don't mind
14:20:18 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79639&oldid=78275 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-382) Unknown computational class
14:22:20 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79640&oldid=75183 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38) /* See also */ Use interwiki links; remove mobile
14:25:09 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79641&oldid=79600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Syntax */ Spaces
14:41:10 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:05:07 -!- MDude has joined.
15:41:19 -!- delta23 has joined.
16:33:28 -!- sprocklem has joined.
16:56:32 <rain1> change the rules of scrabble: You get 10 letters instead of 7. You get 5 magic tokens. on your turn you can play as many letters as you want, anywhere as long as they are next to existing letters and make words like normal. And you can replace letters already on the board to change the word.
17:02:16 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
17:05:55 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79642&oldid=78085 * DMC * (+10) /* External resources */
17:07:39 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:08:01 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79643&oldid=79642 * DMC * (-10) /* External resources */
17:08:35 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79644&oldid=79643 * DMC * (+19) /* External resources */
17:09:45 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79645&oldid=79644 * DMC * (+0) /* External resources */
17:54:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:07:06 <zzo38> Happy Christmas today (if, that is, in your timezone!)
18:07:27 <zzo38> rain1: What are magic tokens doing and what happens to letters which have been replaced?
18:08:04 <rain1> lettters could be put back into the bag
18:08:10 <rain1> but i don't know about the magic tokens
18:28:14 <zzo38> Other possibility might be exchanging with your hand if you are replacing existing letters, but you must add at least one letter which is not exchanged
18:32:47 <rain1> and the blank tiles are mini whiteboards which you write the letter on
18:42:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:45:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:45:49 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:22:24 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:23:44 <zzo38> I tended to prefer memoryless wildcards instead
19:26:09 <rain1> that is a better idea
20:01:52 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:03:40 -!- imode has joined.
20:03:55 -!- delta23 has joined.
20:31:25 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:40:15 -!- delta23 has joined.
21:26:50 <fizzie> Heh. Added a Pohlig-Hellman solution for day 25.
21:31:27 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:07:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:08 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:24:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:25:33 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:31:22 <int-e> fizzie: do you do the giant step, baby step thing as well?
22:32:27 <int-e> (or something else that gives you O(sqrt(q)) where p is the largest prime factor of the order)
22:43:21 -!- tromp has joined.
22:48:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:51:11 -!- tromp has joined.
22:53:02 <fizzie> Yes, exactly that one. It's used as a subroutine for Pohlig-Hellman.
22:54:44 <fizzie> Not that it's at all necessary. In my case, trial multiplication takes 30ms, baby-step giant-step takes 0.57ms and Pohlig-Hellman takes 48µs to solve day 25. Or at least that's what `go test -bench . -benchtime 1m ./2020/day25` says, http://ix.io/2JxA
22:57:59 <fizzie> 20201226 happens to have no powers other than 1 in its prime factorization (20201226 = 2*3*29*116099), so I only really did half of the algorithm.
22:58:49 <rain1> Pohlig-Hellman? wow day 25 sounds interesting
22:58:55 <fizzie> But I think it's kind of amusing that in a sense it reduces it to day 13, because one step there is also to solve N congruences.
23:00:00 <fizzie> I mean, it's just a Diffie-Hellman key exchange. So it's interesting insofar as the topic is, not so much as it being a novel and puzzling puzzle.
23:01:00 <fizzie> But I think day 25s (days 25? what's the plural?) generally tend to be on the simple side. And they only really have a part 1, too.
23:02:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:13 <int-e> and I still managed to spend 45s between the first star and the second star.
23:02:33 <int-e> despite having gone through it last year.
23:05:32 <fizzie> Heh. 30 seconds for me (06:39:57 → 06:40:27), but probably just because I had done 2018 right before.
23:06:30 <fizzie> My "personal statistics" page is more a "when did you wake up [and had nothing else to do] in December" page.
23:06:51 <fizzie> The smallest number there is 5+ hours.
23:07:44 <int-e> I actually got up on time for this from day 7...
23:07:51 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:08:59 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.one.html -- 2019 is realy the odd one out there for day 25. Guess that text adventure wasn't really doable real quick.
23:12:50 <int-e> hmm, the times also support the feeling that this year was easier than last
23:13:15 <esowiki> [[Gene]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79646 * Sinthorion * (+4110) Created page with "'''Gene''' is a language based on sexual reproduction of processes created by [[User:Sinthorion]]. == Core design principles == * A program consists of multiple processes (id..."
23:14:07 <int-e> (but looking at the top 100 may not be the best metric of difficulty)
23:15:10 -!- tromp has joined.
23:19:25 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:19:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:04:55 -!- sandy-claws has changed nick to poggers.
00:23:49 -!- delta23 has joined.
00:27:20 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
00:34:06 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:35:50 <esowiki> [[Gene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79647&oldid=79646 * Sinthorion * (+49) /* Core design principles */
00:42:25 -!- tromp has joined.
00:47:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:38:50 <esowiki> [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79648&oldid=79625 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+199) /* Function definitions */ Only one outer call per FN
01:38:51 -!- poggers has changed nick to jess.
02:30:33 -!- tromp has joined.
02:34:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:37:16 -!- Arcorann has joined.
03:24:24 -!- tromp has joined.
03:29:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:11:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:18:39 -!- tromp has joined.
04:20:54 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:23:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:00:08 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
05:00:32 -!- ArthurStrong has changed nick to Godot.
05:05:24 -!- adu has joined.
05:12:44 -!- tromp has joined.
05:17:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:21:32 <esowiki> [[Pip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79649 * Razetime * (+1321) Created Pip Page
05:21:46 <esowiki> [[User:Razetime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79650 * Razetime * (+554) Created page and intro
05:22:06 <esowiki> [[User:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79651&oldid=79650 * Razetime * (+11)
05:40:46 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
05:50:20 -!- aloril has joined.
06:00:53 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:05:40 -!- aloril has joined.
06:06:46 -!- tromp has joined.
06:11:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:12:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
06:18:19 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:22:42 -!- aloril has joined.
06:37:56 -!- adu has joined.
06:58:14 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
07:54:45 -!- tromp has joined.
07:59:16 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:05:30 -!- tromp has joined.
08:41:42 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:43:52 <esowiki> [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79652&oldid=79328 * Tetrapyronia * (+15) fixed sentence
09:55:45 -!- rain1 has joined.
10:32:16 -!- Godot has quit (Quit: leaving).
10:37:44 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Away from the sun.).
10:43:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:20:32 -!- arseniiv has joined.
13:25:57 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:40:11 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
13:43:40 <esowiki> [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79653&oldid=79652 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Board definition */ Typo fix
13:44:45 <esowiki> [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79654&oldid=79653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Example Program */ Cats
13:49:35 <rain1> what do you prefer, arrows on pochmann color for supercubes?
13:52:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:01:06 -!- CryptoKid has joined.
14:01:41 * CryptoKid Verry Fast bitcoin miner ! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 for crypto miners
14:01:41 * CryptoKid Verry Fast bitcoin miner ! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 for crypto miners
14:01:50 -!- CryptoKid has left.
14:24:58 <int-e> "What is more, as a CryptoTab Browser user, you are able to participate in our referral program, where you can invite friends, promote CryptoTab Browser through social media and get additional earnings."
14:25:12 <int-e> I guess that's what we just fell victim to.
14:25:16 <esowiki> [[Enterprise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79655&oldid=76759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Fizzbuzz */ add link
14:27:18 <myname> that wasn't obvious from the id in the url?
14:27:33 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79656&oldid=77726 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Reword
14:29:11 <int-e> myname: I wanted to figure out how much of a scam this is... https://cryptobrowser.site/en/faq/ suggests it's one of the most intransparent mining pools ever.
14:29:55 <myname> well, there is no such thing as fast bitcoin mining
14:29:57 <int-e> Most notably they don't say how much they take for themselves in fees.
14:30:28 <int-e> (Never mind people will obviously pay more in electricity than the bitcoins they earn are worth.)
14:31:12 <myname> yeah, nobody with a sane mind will use regular hardware for bitcoin mining, unless you live in china
14:31:22 <int-e> From the description, they may also be grabbing Google and Facebook login information.
14:31:45 <int-e> Or maybe not. It's totally unclear.
14:32:06 <int-e> In any case, that satisfies my curiosity.
14:47:04 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:59:11 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79657&oldid=79656 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* DIVSPL */ External link
15:08:34 -!- b_jonas has joined.
15:20:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79658&oldid=79053 * Razetime * (+134) Added discord server
15:50:47 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
16:05:24 -!- delta23 has joined.
16:17:42 <esowiki> [[CV(N)(C)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3697) Create CV(N)(C)
16:18:03 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79660&oldid=74410 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External Resources */ See also
16:18:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79661&oldid=79626 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* C */ +[[CV(N)(C)]]
16:20:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79662&oldid=79627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Languages */ +[[CV(N)(C)]]
16:20:36 <myname> i'd love to have audio files for CV(N)(C)
16:40:46 <esowiki> [[Cyclic ACIDIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79663&oldid=21510 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) CAT & SEE ALSO
16:44:18 <esowiki> [[ACIDIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79664&oldid=66397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* See Also */ Cat
16:54:23 <esowiki> [[Moanfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79665 * Razetime * (+2912) Added moanfuck page
16:54:42 <esowiki> [[Moanfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79666&oldid=79665 * Razetime * (+1) /* See Also */
17:00:06 <fizzie> Hmm. One of those old-school source-filter-based speech synthesis systems could probably be tweaked to pronounce CV(N)(C) programs. For anything more modern (read: sample-based), I'm guessing the problem is no (mainstream) language's going to have a superset of the phonemes used in it.
17:00:23 -!- MDude has joined.
17:30:48 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:31:17 -!- xelxebar has joined.
17:35:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:45:15 -!- user24 has joined.
17:45:34 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:47:52 -!- tromp has joined.
18:02:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:09:11 <arseniiv> <rain1> what do you prefer, arrows on pochmann color for supercubes? => oh, interesting. Didn’t know about both
18:12:22 <rain1> i think I will try to create a pochmann 4x4
18:14:03 <arseniiv> re CV(N)(C): θ f s ʒ really? No other good, non-English-centric fricatives in IPA? Where’s my favorite ɮ̃ʷː?
18:15:35 <arseniiv> uh, I mean creaky-voiced, not nasalized: ɮ̰ʷː
18:17:13 <arseniiv> though I need to agree splitting w into ɰ and ʋ is a good move
18:18:56 <arseniiv> but again my favorite ɥ isn’t present (that’s almost an jʷ or ʋʲ, or a short consonantal version of y)
18:33:35 <arseniiv> ah, and if anyone’s wondering what’s [ɰ̊] like, it’s almost like [x] which is what they say should be in English word “loch” though I’m not sure it’s not replaced by [h] even by many native speakers
18:36:51 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:37:59 <arseniiv> the vocalism seems unbalanced though there might still be languages with something like that, but I would presume there aren’t and even if for one phonologists use the set of phonemes named for some reason /ə æ i u o/ (and not /a e i u o/), I bet their realizations in speech would fill the available articulatory space more than just plain “pure” [ə æ i u o]
18:43:27 -!- tromp has joined.
18:43:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:46:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:46:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
18:54:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:58:37 <arseniiv> also the description is too simple to describe what variations around e. g. /s/ are considered non-meaningful and silently allowed, what variations are treated as /s/ but would cause a lift of an eyebrow and what variations would be deemed to far to signify /s/ and would be treated as e. g. /θ/ or as nothing meaningful at all
18:58:37 <arseniiv> a serious description of a spoken language should at least try to describe that, as that’s a part of the language and what makes it different from other languages and maybe its close relatives; and a constructed language is almost surely should do more work as there are usually no traditions and hundreds of living speakers
18:58:37 <arseniiv> and without that description we may pronounce those strings almost as we see fit! I may well try realize /ʒuɰ̊fuʒʋu/ as something faithfully transcribed as жухфужву which is more or less [ʐˠuxfˠuʐˠˈvˠu] but phonemic contrasts *implied* in the CV(N)(C)’s description allow me to treat the former like the latter
18:58:37 <arseniiv> though FTR I would be unable to treat something like /θ/ as bluntly as there are both /f/ and /s/ present, and all three of them together won’t fit into Russian phonology without substantial cheating like realizing /θ/ as, well, maybe “soft” /s'/ [sʲ] as opposed to “hard” /s/ [s(ˠ)]. Or I may substitute anything at all:
18:58:37 <arseniiv> for example in Japanese there is a “moraic nasal” or what it’s called, /N/, which realizes as various nasal stops, assimilating with the next consonant, and there are far weirder phonemes in some languages
19:03:57 <arseniiv> though don’t believe me too hard
19:04:46 <arseniiv> but I hope I’m not too much wrong in all that
19:05:23 <arseniiv> the highlight of the rant is that you may pronounce that language almost as you wish
19:07:34 <arseniiv> as the specification isn’t detailed enough and the usual presupposition is that phonemes realize not too sharply and which speech sounds represent which phoneme is even context-dependent usually
19:18:15 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
19:24:47 -!- tromp has joined.
19:27:37 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:27:50 -!- tromp has joined.
19:39:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:10:55 -!- TheLie has joined.
20:25:29 <b_jonas> fungot, does the One ring rule over and bind the thirty golden rings that your true lover gave to you?
20:25:29 <fungot> b_jonas: if it's in the default environment scheme48 provides, it can
20:27:00 <int-e> fungot: help, I'm typing nonsense
20:27:00 <fungot> int-e: good girl. me stay." fnord quest iv
20:29:34 <fungot> delta23: what does " native compiler" means in " select*": see fnord/ distros/ fnord/ fnord
20:32:37 <int-e> those stars and quotes, hmm
20:34:23 <fizzie> The handling of spaces in opening quotation marks has always bothered me, but not enough to fix.
20:35:10 <int-e> are *, : and / treated a punctuation? (no spaces before, one space afterwards?)
20:35:28 <fizzie> * I think is just part of word. : and / are punctuation.
20:36:14 <fizzie> The logic is something like, regular tokens always have a space before them, and I could fix trailing punctuation (comma, period, closing quotes and parens) by just omitting that, but I couldn't fix opening punctuation (open quote, open paren) because they would need to omit the space that "belongs" to the next token.
20:36:47 <int-e> ah, it's a dirty trick then :)
20:37:02 <fizzie> Yeah. Realistically it'd just need to set a flag somewhere for the next word to skip the customary space, but still.
20:37:34 <fizzie> Also, both opening and closing single and double quotes are rendered with ' and ", but in the token representation they're separate tokens.
20:38:27 <fizzie> 'UNK', 'START', 'END', 'PCDQUOT', 'PCOLON', 'PCOMMA', 'PCPAREN', 'PCSQUOT', 'PDOT', 'PELLIPSIS', 'PEXCL', 'PFROWN', 'PODQUOT', 'POPAREN', 'POSQUOT', 'PQUEST', 'PSLASH', 'PSMILE' -- that's the set of special tokens.
20:53:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:57:26 -!- uraniumz has joined.
21:00:46 -!- uraniumz has left ("Leaving").
22:01:21 <zzo38> I am trying to figure out a problem in Free Hero Mesh, having to do with the order of sending MOVED, DEPARTED, and ARRIVED messages. I made a message trace from Hero Mesh and Free Hero Mesh, and they match until one line where it starts to differ from there.
22:05:01 -!- imode has joined.
22:20:07 <zzo38> I don't know, if someone else is able to help such thing; the test requires proprietary Windows-based software, and the SANDY1 puzzle set, which I believe is copyright, so I will not distribute it.
22:21:58 <rain1> interesting that it uses hamster archive
22:32:26 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Running away from things seems to make them chase you faster. Stupid rubberbanding.).
22:39:43 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:49:13 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:10:45 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:13:34 <zzo38> I have tried several tests, and with the simple tests that I have tried, have been unable to find any individual thing that doesn't match (although sliding isn't implemented yet, but my tests have shown that the sequence of events involved here doesn't use sliding). I may be looking at the wrong things, though.
23:33:20 <zzo38> Do you have a idea of other test to make, though?
23:42:56 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:37:50 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
00:39:25 -!- cheeze42 has joined.
00:47:43 <esowiki> [[Esoteric Verilog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79667&oldid=59473 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Imperfect computing */ cat
00:54:18 <esowiki> [[Ecstatic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79668&oldid=77808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* Hello, World! */ Cat and see also
00:56:04 <esowiki> [[CompressedFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79669&oldid=51764 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) cats /* Implementations */
01:01:35 -!- cheeze42 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:19:31 -!- jess has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:56:19 <oren> It is well known that there are a lot of things named after lagrange, and a lot of things named after euler
01:57:01 <oren> is there only one thing named after both lagrange and euler?
02:11:21 <zzo38> Unfortunately, I don't know.
02:51:42 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:39:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:39:45 -!- xelxebar has joined.
03:58:55 -!- imode has joined.
04:04:36 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79670&oldid=79577 * Tetrapyronia * (+36) added CV(N)(C)
04:19:57 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!).
04:20:57 -!- iovoid has joined.
04:35:14 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
04:35:52 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79671&oldid=79545 * Tetrapyronia * (+15)
04:41:28 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
05:09:02 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:19:57 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:36:11 <esowiki> [[Lisparser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79672&oldid=78747 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
06:19:44 -!- MDude has joined.
06:24:08 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
07:10:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:16:28 -!- Arcorann has joined.
07:16:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
07:20:27 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
09:40:08 <b_jonas> nope, it was just out of battery. way too soon after purchase. oh well.
09:42:41 <int-e> hmm, curious... were the batteries included
09:43:05 <int-e> this is outside the sphere of my experience; I have a cabled mouse
09:43:33 <int-e> but I do have some experience with batteries included with products... and most of the time they suck
09:44:00 <b_jonas> in fact the battery included says "OEM, Not for retail sale
09:44:22 <b_jonas> it's a quite nice mouse btw, I should buy a second copy some time
09:45:06 <int-e> And, hmm the wireless mice I've seen used had their own rechargable battery and a special platform to provide electricity
09:46:23 <b_jonas> I can recommend it: Microsoft U7Z-00003 Wireless Mobile Mouse 1850 black mouse, with USB receiver, AA batteries
09:46:37 <Arcorann> My wireless mouse uses standard AA batteries so I just use rechargeables
09:47:15 <b_jonas> int-e: I know there are ones without rechargable batteries, but I prefer the ones with replacable batteries. at least these days, when wireless mouse consume little power.
10:30:07 -!- rain1 has joined.
10:38:10 <rain1> https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/comments/kksfqi/i_dont_know_what_actually_happened/ puzzle and soltution
10:41:11 <int-e> "Removed - Not Unexpected" <-- makes finding the puzzle harder than solving it
10:46:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:55:07 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
11:53:28 -!- TheLie has joined.
11:54:09 -!- arseniiv has joined.
12:30:27 <b_jonas> you know, it's sort of magical how our home gas appliances work without electronics. appliances that fall back to turn off safely when there's no electricity, that I understand. but gas stoves, water boilers and heaters (with pilot lights) working without electronics controlling them, how the fuck is that ever possible?
12:32:53 <int-e> valves and other clever mechanical engineering. some of it may even involve bimetallic strips
12:34:24 <b_jonas> but a valve doesn't do anything by itself. you control it either by electronics or by another valve.
12:34:42 <b_jonas> so "valves" doesn't really explain it to me
12:34:48 <shachaf> Looking at the details of how people use tortoise-and-hare to find hash collisions, they're pretty surprising.
12:34:49 <int-e> And no, I couldn't make it work either. I know barely enough to make it not seem magical.
12:35:27 <int-e> shachaf: hmm. is there a paper of web page you're alluding to specifically?
12:35:28 <b_jonas> I also say often that washing machines seem magical to me.
12:35:56 <shachaf> int-e: My friend showed me some code.
12:37:06 <shachaf> It goes like this, approximately:
12:37:07 <shachaf> let tortoise = 0; let hare = 0; do { tortoise = f(tortoise); hare = f(f(hare)); } while (tortoise != hare);
12:37:34 <int-e> Yeah, I know this one. I never implement it anymore though
12:37:51 <shachaf> let x, y; while (tortoise != hare) { x = tortoise; y = hare; tortoise = f(tortoise); hare = f(hare); }
12:37:59 <shachaf> And then x,y is a collision.
12:38:18 <shachaf> Finding a cycle isn't the part I'm surprised by, it's finding a collision.
12:38:32 <int-e> I only have a hare running a head leaving markers behind at... usuaully... powers of two.
12:38:58 <int-e> which probably has its own name that I don't know.
12:39:39 <shachaf> Is it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_detection#Brent's_algorithm ?
12:40:11 <shachaf> It's still not entirely intuitive to me why the second step works.
12:40:25 <shachaf> Actually, it doesn't, because I forgot to set tortoise = 0 before the loop.
12:40:40 <int-e> yes, that's the one
12:42:20 <int-e> I've pondered Gosper's version too but I didn't find it all that attractive.
12:43:04 <shachaf> Is this for cycle finding or collision finding?
12:45:27 <int-e> but I guess it's really about the cycle detection at that point.
12:46:41 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:47:53 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79673&oldid=79670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Definer */ Fiks spelyng
12:48:18 <int-e> the last time I experimented with collision finding I didn't worry much about the efficiency of extracting a collision once I have found two starting points leading to the same distinguished point.
12:48:36 <shachaf> Well, this method doesn't use distinguished points at all.
12:48:39 <int-e> I'd run the computation of the distinguished point again, twice.
12:48:51 <shachaf> The distinguished point method I have no problem with, but it doesn't need tortoises or hares.
12:49:15 <int-e> once to find the difference of the lengths of the two chain, and a second time to actually pinpoint the actual collision
12:49:54 <shachaf> Oh, I stored the difference in the table when I computed the chains.
12:50:00 <int-e> the same thing applies to finding a single cycle
12:50:22 <int-e> (and its starting point)
12:50:22 <shachaf> The distinguished point method has nothing to do with cycles, does it?
12:50:50 <int-e> but there's a common problem
12:51:37 <int-e> Both methods give you values a, b, c such that f^k(a) = f^l(b) = c for some k and l.
12:52:57 <int-e> And then, assuming that the sequence starting at a isn't a suffix of the sequence starting at b or vice versa, you can extract a collision.
12:53:53 <int-e> And I solved that problem (inefficiently) using just a,b,c, so that method applies to identifying the starting point of a cycle as well
12:55:10 <int-e> What is specific to the distinguished point method is that this computation really *is* expected cheap compared to finding suitable a,b,c.
12:55:50 <int-e> Whereas in the cycle finding case the computation on this naive level may easily double your computation time or worse.
12:57:12 <int-e> So... hmm. Yes, I can believe that there are some cute tricks.
12:57:36 <shachaf> I think maybe I was missing something that should have been obvious about this.
12:59:59 <int-e> The way I think of it is finding the largest n <= min(l,k) such that f^(k-n)(a) != f^(l-n)(b).
13:02:37 <int-e> It may not be the best way at all, especially if you have memory available to leave a trail of breadcrumbs.
13:04:07 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the speedups for finding collisions are magic too
13:04:26 <b_jonas> but I sort of understand them better than the engineering in gas appliances
13:05:17 <b_jonas> in that I have some confidence that I can sort of figure out what you can speed up how much and what can't (not perfectly, but somewhat), but I don't know how to tell what you can implement without electricity and what you can't
13:06:38 <shachaf> OK, I finally got it, I think.
13:07:03 <shachaf> When you run the Floyd thing and the tortoise and hare meet, you know that f^t(0) = f^2t(0) = c
13:07:23 <int-e> If you have f^(id)(s) for 0 <= i <= N/d, then you can test f(k),f(k+1),...,f(k+d-1) against that table to check whether you're inside the cycle
13:07:36 <int-e> shachaf: right, so the period divides t
13:07:46 <shachaf> Which means if you start with 0,c and keep applying f to each side, after times you'll get f^t(0),f^t(c)
13:08:03 <shachaf> So you apply f until the first time they're equal.
13:10:03 <shachaf> Man, I'm so bad at thinking about this somehow.
13:10:25 <int-e> shachaf: whereas in Brent's method, you get f^t(0) = f^2^k(0) for some k,t, so you need a bit of modular arithmetic to get started.
13:10:46 <shachaf> I don't know how Brent's method works yet.
13:11:09 <int-e> for can advance to a t' >= t with t' = 0 (mod t - 2^k).
13:12:08 <int-e> (the t in Brent's method satisfies 2^(k+1) >= t > 2^k)
13:19:32 <int-e> shachaf: So what is the purpose here? Finding hash collisions, or finding the starting point of cycles?
13:19:49 <shachaf> The context was finding a hash collision (of sorts).
13:20:08 <shachaf> Oh, I don't know why I said that.
13:20:27 <int-e> The difference is that cycles tend to be long, so things parallelize badly.
13:21:07 <shachaf> I think the goal was to write the minimal amount of code to do it.
13:21:22 <shachaf> Since the number of hash function applications was only in the billions.
13:22:39 <int-e> That indeed makes tortoise and hare attractive :)
13:22:49 <shachaf> I think the Pollard lambda method is the most reasonable in general.
13:23:06 <shachaf> Since you can parallelize it easily, tune memory usage, etc.
13:23:20 <int-e> Yes, that was my confusion.
13:33:20 <esowiki> [[CV(N)(C)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79674&oldid=79659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Cat program */ Add [[User:Tetrapyronia]]'s Truth-machine
13:33:46 <esowiki> [[CV(N)(C)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79675&oldid=79674 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* "HI" */ hm
13:38:35 <shachaf> int-e: Thanks for clarifying despite my stubbornness.
13:38:59 <shachaf> It turns out the Wikipedia page I linked to even talks about finding the start of the cycle, which I somehow thought it wasn't.
13:40:09 <shachaf> Hmm, the other thing I was unsure about with the tortoise and hare was, can the hare ever miss the tortoise the first time around the cycle?
13:41:03 -!- jess has joined.
13:41:25 <int-e> just pick a cycle of length 1 and a long preamble... 9876543210000000000
13:42:54 <int-e> You should be able to compute the exact number from the length of the cycle and the length of the non-cyclic prefix, but it'll be prone to off-by-one errors :)
13:46:50 <int-e> The tortoise has to walk the whole prefix, and then a few more steps until the number of steps is divisible by the cycle length.
13:47:19 <int-e> At which point, if the cycle is shorter than the prefix, the hare will already have been around the cycle several times.
13:47:47 <int-e> f(x) = x <-- cycle of length 1.
13:48:30 <shachaf> What I mean is specifically whether the hare can jump over the tortoise after the tortoise has entered the cycle.
13:48:52 <int-e> the distance changes by 1 in each step
13:49:19 <shachaf> Oh man, that's a good point.
13:49:57 <shachaf> I guess that answers everything.
13:56:36 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:58:39 <shachaf> The other thing I learned about recently was minimap perfect hash functions.
13:59:29 <shachaf> The "hash, displace, compress" method seems pretty simple.
14:08:40 <shachaf> I see, so the idea of the Brent thing is that the tortoise is too slow.
14:09:20 <shachaf> And so if you've been going for a while without the hare seeing the tortoise, maybe the tortoise should teleport to the hare.
14:09:34 <int-e> well, 1/3 of the calls to f are spent on letting the tortoise catch up
14:10:07 <int-e> and the teleporting eliminates that cost, though obviously that doesn't come entirely for free
14:10:12 <shachaf> So here the tortoise stands still, and once in a while it teleport to the hare.
14:10:35 <shachaf> And once the gap between teleportations i large enough (larger than the length of the cycle), the hare can go all the way around and find the tortoise.
14:10:35 <int-e> because now you'll generally find the cycles a bit later
14:11:12 <shachaf> But now, hmm, you no longer have this f^t(0) = f^2t(0) property (as you were saying).
14:12:24 <shachaf> Some point that's on the cycle, and the number of steps it took to get to that point.
14:16:08 <shachaf> You have the cycle length, of course.
14:17:30 -!- xelxebar has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
14:17:30 <shachaf> I see, you answered everything above.
14:17:32 -!- xelxebar_ has joined.
15:48:56 -!- TheLie has joined.
15:55:21 -!- user24 has joined.
16:00:46 <esowiki> [[Template:C]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+320) Add C
16:09:17 <esowiki> [[Template:C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79677&oldid=79676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Fix
16:10:18 -!- zseri has joined.
16:11:48 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79678&oldid=77795 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+824) /* MiniChicken */ Add translator to/from Chicken
16:13:39 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:18:54 -!- TheLie has joined.
16:19:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79679&oldid=79470 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-126) Shovel
16:21:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79680&oldid=79679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Ini */ m
16:38:35 -!- delta23 has joined.
17:01:01 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
17:20:03 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:17:25 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I also say often that washing machines seem magical to me. => but they are. If we’re to believe some people. they use FuZzY lOgIc, which is by definition a sort of black magic
18:18:42 <arseniiv> I very much hope that at least some washing machines don’t use fuzzy inference ans do use instead a normal humane statistical inference like Markov-something-Bayes-something
18:20:08 <kmc> b_jonas: at my last apartment there was a gas leak caused by the landlord's idiot "handyman" turning off the gas and then turning it back on without relighting all the pilot lights
18:20:19 <kmc> so not all appliances handle that properly :P
18:20:25 <arseniiv> (I believe fuzzy models don’t have easily extractable semantics and statistic models do)
18:20:39 <kmc> and I think the ones that shut off if the pilot light goes off use a thermocouple to detect it, so are electronic in nature
18:21:48 <kmc> or at least electrical
18:23:06 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple#Gas_appliance_safety
18:23:35 <kmc> it seems that the thermocouple itself generates the voltage needed to keep the pilot valve open, and this is how the appliance works without an external electrical power supply?
18:39:00 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:39:17 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:41:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:41:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
18:44:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:47:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:47:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
18:51:53 -!- delta23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:52:13 -!- delta23 has joined.
19:18:01 <b_jonas> kmc: that... shouldn't happen. gas appliances do shut off when the pilot light or flame goes off. all stoves and gas ovens do, and I think all heaters should too.
19:19:39 <b_jonas> on the other hand, the market seems right, because good washing machines, good gas stoves, heaters etc are quite expensive, so you pay for the magic. so it's not magic from an economic perspective, only from an engineering one.
19:19:51 <b_jonas> well, only from the perspective of a non-engineer like me.
19:20:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:21:08 <int-e> For something purely mechanical, a valve operated by a bimetallic strip still seems plausible to me.
19:21:29 <int-e> The pilot flame may be small but it's still quite hot.
19:22:53 <kmc> yeah, some may work that way
19:23:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
19:24:00 <kmc> b_jonas: I took an emergency preparedness class where we were specifically warned about this problem, and then a few months later it happened to me personally. so no, not all appliances automatically shut off when the pilot light goes out. they may be old or malfunctioning, but they do exist
19:24:35 <kmc> and that's why they say if you shut off the gas supply to your house you shouldn't turn it back on without a gas technician there
19:26:08 <kmc> i don't know, it's possible the idiot handyman messed something else up and we got the wrong explanation secondhand
19:40:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:27:27 <b_jonas> kmc: this is not a wisdom that I heard, and I have shut off and restarted gas in this apartment multiple times, and I think I may have done it in my parent's apartment too. It might apply if you use shoddy gas technicians, or any of that very old gas technology found in old houses.
20:28:37 <b_jonas> kmc: and I've experienced the opposite problem recently, where the thermal sensor of the convector went wrong such that it wouldn't keep the gas on even if the flame was forced for several minutes. the gas replairman replaced it, and now it works fine again.
20:30:27 <b_jonas> if anything, it's non-gas electric appliances where I've experienced that they can be unsafe, like this electric heater in the bathroom that turned on in the middle of the night for no reason (admittedly only the fan, not the heat; it was its last run, I've unplugged it since, but haven't physically removed it from the wall yet),
20:30:57 <b_jonas> or cheap electric kettles that go wrong and don't ever turn off even when the water has been boiling for a while.
20:54:01 -!- ice303 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:05:01 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:20:10 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:22:09 <esowiki> [[TP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79681&oldid=68016 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ cat
21:30:45 <esowiki> [[Deutsch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79682&oldid=67940 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) CAT and LINK
21:35:53 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:36:03 <esowiki> [[EXAMPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79683&oldid=63865 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) cat
21:36:19 <fizzie> Electric showers were a thing I'd not seen before moving to the UK.
21:37:27 <fizzie> I think there are better expensive ones, but the one in our previous rented place was cheap and kind of not so great.
21:38:02 <fizzie> The cheap kind don't have independent flow and temperature controls, they just have two power settings (turning on one or both heating elements) and fine-tuning the temperature is done by adjusting the flow rate.
21:38:33 <fizzie> So in wintertime, you get a pretty small trickle of water to shower with.
21:39:02 <fizzie> On the plus side, by definition they won't run out of warm water, because it's all made on-demand.
21:48:19 <esowiki> [[Etre]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79684&oldid=37917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) Unpipe
21:50:13 <myname> wait, how can you run out of warm water?
22:14:46 <fizzie> Uh, the same way you run out of anything else. Using it faster than it gets heated up, and sufficiently long to exhaust whatever amount you have stored pre-heated.
22:14:49 <fizzie> Can't say I've ever lived anywhere where that's really been an issue (or even reasonably feasible), but I don't think it's a foreign concept.
22:19:29 <myname> but couldn't you heat the water with electricity before it gets to your shower and therefore neither have to deal with electricity in your shower nor running the risk of missing hot water?
22:21:58 <fizzie> Well, it's not my field. But I take it a "general-purpose" water heater is not designed to heat up water particularly *fast*, it just has a tank of some suitable size that's kept hot and ready for use, which can then run out.
22:22:33 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_heating#Storage_water_heaters_(tank-type) "In household and commercial usage, most North American and Southern Asian water heaters are the tank type, also called storage water heaters, these consist of a cylindrical vessel or container that keeps water continuously hot and ready to use. Typical sizes for household use range from 75–400 L (20–100 US gallons). --
22:22:39 <fizzie> This is a popular arrangement where higher flow rates are required for limited periods."
22:24:22 <fizzie> I'd say in general UK flats tend to be more "independent" than what I'm used to. The place with the electric shower was in a moderately sized (~30 flats?) building, and where back in Finland that would have definitely had a building-wide hot water and heating, here it was all per-flat.
22:24:43 -!- delta23 has joined.
22:24:48 <myname> yeah uk and water is kinda weird
22:25:14 <myname> like, i hate the idea of separate faucets for cold and hot water
22:25:20 <fizzie> This new place doesn't, but I feel like it's more the exception, and even here they have a per-flat "HIU" that measures the amount of energy used so that it can be billed per-flat.
22:25:50 <fizzie> Yeah, that's weird too, though orthogonal to the issue where the hot water's coming from.
22:29:19 <fizzie> And a third thing: they just don't seem to get district heating here. It seems to be treated as some sort of exotic novelty.
22:30:30 <fizzie> (I think *now* they have some bigger plans along those lines, what with all the climate things.)
22:35:52 <b_jonas> myname: there are two types of water heaters for showering and dishwashing. the better kind heat the water as it flows through the pipe, in which case you can't run out of it. the worse kind has a big tank of water that it heats, and you use the warm water from its top, if you use up a full tank of water quickly you get cold water for the shower.
22:36:55 <fizzie> That's pretty much the gist of my Wikipedia link, except with a less emphasis on the better/worse axis.
22:37:12 <b_jonas> "<myname> like, i hate the idea of separate faucets for cold and hot water" => yes, that's a weird thing that the UK does for some reason. I don't understand it either.
22:37:34 <myname> historically it was done to keep clean and potentially dirty water apart
22:37:54 <myname> and nobody wanted to change that
22:39:08 <b_jonas> I also don't understand these tiny taps for bathroom sinks that are so low that you can barely fit anything in the path of the water. like, would a few more inches of pipe for the faucet kill you? sadly those exist even here.
22:39:10 <fizzie> I haven't seen *that* many separate faucets here, to be honest.
22:39:31 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:39:45 <b_jonas> they make a little bit of sense in public installations because they're harder to vandalize, but even that doesn't work out that way in practice
22:40:20 <fizzie> I've always wondered if they do that in public toilets to discourage people from filling water bottles from those taps.
22:40:30 <myname> wait, how do you vandalize a higher faucet more easily than a lower one?
22:42:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. I still fill water bottles. if necessary, I use a 0.5 liter bottle a intermediate storage to fill 2 liter (or 1.5 liter) bottles, I took a 0.5 liter bottle in addition to the large ones for long bus trips for skiing for just that reason; plus I bend the plastic battles, and force the faucet to rotate (it's usually not attached to the sink strongly enoguh) so there's more space under it
22:42:37 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:43:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: but those faucets also suck for washing face or eyes, and for drinking directly (without a bottle or glass)
22:43:18 <b_jonas> the more extreme ones even make washing your hands harder
22:43:47 -!- ocharles has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:43:57 <b_jonas> but sometimes those low faucets are installed in universities or hospitals or homes, where there's no reason not to want people to fill water bottles
22:45:04 -!- ocharles has joined.
22:45:06 -!- glowcoil has joined.
22:45:22 -!- ocharles has changed nick to Guest26328.
22:45:34 <myname> we have one place at uni with automatic water dispensers that stop after about half a liter
22:48:17 <b_jonas> oh yes, the malls are even worse. I most passionately hate Allé (the carbon monoxide mall), which has these photosensor taps that, if you let the water flow for about a minute, it shuts the tap off for five minutes, so you have to know to interrupt the flow in between to be able to wash your hands. that in addition to the very low water pressure in the taps, too low to allow washing the soap off, that
22:48:23 <b_jonas> these ones have too, just like the bathrooms in most other malls.
22:48:40 <b_jonas> and now they compound this with fucking signs saying how they're working to stop covid and that you should care about hygenie
22:48:54 <b_jonas> but still don't change the bathrooms
22:49:13 <myname> wait, so i can ddos all taps?
22:51:09 <b_jonas> but only for five or ten minutes
22:51:17 <b_jonas> after you leave they'll turn back on
22:51:38 <myname> good enough to annoy a whole bunch of people
22:51:38 <b_jonas> you can also ddos all taps by leaving nasty disgusting stuff there by the way, or just stealing them, as it happens in some public places here
22:52:40 <b_jonas> also half of these malls don't have storage lockers or cloakrooms, the other half supposedly have them but make them hardly usable in practice
22:53:13 <myname> there is the story here about a branch of the BND (the german intelligence agency) being super secret and all and some night somebody stole all the faucets in the whole thing
22:53:22 <b_jonas> it's disgusting, I mean the point of a mall would be to share infrastructure like toilets and lockers among shops to make them cheaper, but no, they just have a building and rent it out and do as little as they can get away with
22:53:28 <myname> i don't get why anybody would do that
22:53:49 <myname> i mean, clearly you can steal something more valuable than faucets, can't you?
22:54:15 <b_jonas> myname: only the faucets? that's the half-assed version. some go all the way and steal the sink too.
22:54:43 <myname> i guess that's way harder to do and transport in larger quantities
22:55:21 <b_jonas> myname: and no, you can't steal anything more valuable from those hospitals and clinics: they already don't put out soap or toilet paper because they know it would be stolen in an instant, so at most you could steal the benches or seats, but only the heavy ones, the rest are bolted down
22:55:48 <b_jonas> well, there's more valuable stuff obviously, but in places where it takes more effort or risk to steal
22:58:17 <nakilon> btw, "the BND (the german intelligence agency)" -- considering how Germany loved to bullshit the world about Navalny, saying "he was poisoned" and on the proposition "give us any proof" responding "meh, just believe, Putin is evil, gogo NATO"
22:58:42 -!- MDude has joined.
22:59:11 <nakilon> I won't there is any intelligence there
23:05:35 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:57 -!- xelxebar has joined.
23:07:17 <myname> i have neither any idea nor interest about it
23:43:28 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
00:13:41 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0).
00:47:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainlove]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79685&oldid=24840 * MADH95 * (+206)
00:48:06 <esowiki> [[User:MADH95]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79686 * MADH95 * (+72) Created page with "Newish to esolangs. Dabbling in creating my own that might show up here."
00:56:16 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:00:13 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79687&oldid=77873 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Unpipe; cats; external resources
01:13:09 -!- Arcorann has joined.
01:13:11 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Proof 001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79688&oldid=79498 * Hakerh400 * (+4234) Highlighting
01:26:09 <esowiki> [[Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79689&oldid=77137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* External resources */ Cats
01:32:04 <esowiki> [[Functasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79690&oldid=71243 * Hakerh400 * (+9508) Change color scheme
01:43:36 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79691&oldid=79100 * Hakerh400 * (+31524) Highlighting
01:46:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79692&oldid=79691 * Hakerh400 * (+7) /* Implementation */
02:01:21 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
02:05:41 -!- MDude has joined.
02:35:42 -!- delta23 has joined.
04:03:37 <fizzie> That's almost an HHGttG quote.
04:04:43 <fizzie> "'The things,' said Ford Prefect quietly, 'are also people.' 'The people...' resumed Arthur, 'the... other people...'"
04:22:34 -!- FreeFull has quit.
05:13:47 -!- galactic_ has joined.
05:23:05 <Hooloovo0> anyone have a good greppable h2g2?
05:23:33 <Hooloovo0> currently trying to extract the text from one of them with gs but it doesn't seem to be working well
05:23:37 <Lykaina> 0000,t_put,$H$; 0000,t_put,$i$;
05:27:25 <Lykaina> 0000,t_put,$H$; 0000,t_put,$i$; 0000,stop_; FFFF,_eof_;
05:33:14 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:48:44 -!- imode has joined.
07:06:42 -!- uplime has quit (Disconnected by services).
07:07:29 -!- also_uplime has joined.
07:07:46 -!- also_uplime has quit (Disconnected by services).
07:08:00 -!- also_uplime has joined.
08:13:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:26:02 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:42:04 -!- rain1 has joined.
10:04:52 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
10:39:04 -!- arseniiv has joined.
10:49:47 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
10:50:08 <HackEso> The password of the month is wake these token brings
10:54:58 <HackEso> Bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees.
11:26:11 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
11:31:28 <int-e> . o O ( Smart... my emacs renders the month in 28/12/2020 in italic... )
11:32:09 <int-e> well, slanted at least
11:32:10 <shachaf> Just another reason to use 2020-12-28
11:32:30 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah I didn't actually type it that way.
11:32:34 <Taneb> It renders that in strikethrough
11:32:47 <int-e> (I faked the date in the example.)
11:36:13 <shachaf> I like these SAT/SMT lecture slides: https://www.pm.inf.ethz.ch/education/courses/program-verification.html
11:37:08 <shachaf> Is saying SAT/SMT like saying C/C++?
11:38:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: how does it render 2020年12月28日 ?
11:40:23 <Taneb> shachaf: maybe it's like saying GNU/Linux
11:40:43 <shachaf> Oh, b_jonas's system is the best, of course.
11:41:05 <b_jonas> it's not my system. my system is
11:41:07 <HackEso> 2020-12-28 11:41:07.365 +0000 UTC December 28 Monday 2020-W53-1
11:41:17 <b_jonas> 2020-12-28 . but shachaf already said that.
11:41:39 <shachaf> Too bad typing that is tricky for me.
11:41:59 <shachaf> I have Chinese input set up, but I didn't remember the Pinyin for those characters (except the middle one).
11:42:02 <b_jonas> well yes, the zero is in an awkward position in the Hungarian layout
11:42:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: try Japanese input instead maybe
11:43:00 <shachaf> I used to have that set up.
11:43:09 <shachaf> But it seems similarly difficult.
11:43:57 <Arcorann> Either way you'd need to know the pronunciation of what you want to type
11:44:18 <Arcorann> Chinese has shape-based input methods but I don't know how to use any of them
11:44:55 <shachaf> Hmm, one of the first SMT slides says: ¬(f(i)=f(j)) ∧ i-j=0
11:45:06 <shachaf> And I'm not even sure how to show that's UNSAT!
11:45:20 <shachaf> Presumably the slides will tell me but it's annoying that I hadn't even thought about it before.
11:45:52 <shachaf> Now I'm wondering what it does.
11:45:57 <b_jonas> what's this SMT? I don't know the context
11:46:37 <shachaf> Oh, I thought you were asking if this was SMT.
11:46:45 <shachaf> SMT is Satisfiability Modulo Theories.
11:46:55 <shachaf> The problem is that this is mixing theories.
11:47:19 <shachaf> Anyway, option 1: It tries to be clever and turn "i-j=0" to "i=j" in some sort of preprocessing, and then it just has one theory.
11:47:45 <shachaf> Option 2: Something with an e-graph to represent the inequality, which somehow the other theory knows about?
11:48:25 <shachaf> I've pretty much only thought about theories in isolation before. I'm not even sure what option 3 is.
11:52:55 <shachaf> OK, the slides say, extend the API of a theory over what I already know, by having it return equalities that it can figure out. Hmm.
12:04:43 <int-e> shachaf: Well you can extract i /= j from that using the theory of uninterpreted functions and then i /= j and i - j = 0 will be a contradiction in the theory of integers/rationals/reals...
12:05:09 <int-e> IIRC this kind of transfer of equalities and disequalities is at the heart of the Nelson-Oppen theory combination method.
12:05:10 <shachaf> Oh, that's a good point, that's simpler than the direction I was thinking.
12:05:57 <shachaf> But it seems like theory combination must be quite tricky.
12:06:21 <shachaf> I guess "Nelson-Oppen theory combination method" is the thing to look up. Or I can just keep reading these slides.
12:11:55 <shachaf> Oh man, this thing is complicated.
12:12:00 <shachaf> Why are SMT solvers so much work?
12:12:16 <int-e> because they're solving a pretty difficult problem
12:12:45 * int-e believes in irreducible complexity
12:13:09 -!- Alexandra has joined.
12:14:19 <int-e> shachaf: and it gets worse because a ton of people cook up barely decidable theories that an SMT solver can support
12:14:51 <shachaf> I just wanted simple things that barely count as theories.
12:15:02 <shachaf> I mean, do you consider CryptoMiniSat's xor clauses a theory?
12:15:39 <int-e> so, linear arithmetic over reals, over rationals, over integers, non-linear arithmetic over reals (and you can try it for integers and rationals even though it's undecidable there), uninterpreted functions, arrays, ....
12:16:00 <int-e> AIUI, xor clauses are directly used for unit propagation, so not, they're not a theory in the SMT picture
12:16:30 <shachaf> They also do Gaussian elimination, I think.
12:16:48 <int-e> so it's a weird mix then
12:16:59 <shachaf> But why does "used for unit propagation" make it "not a theory", rather than "a better theory"?
12:17:31 <shachaf> If you can have your watch lists wake up theories, rather than running them every literal assignment or something, that seems better.
12:17:43 <int-e> because in the SMT picture, theories are used for analyzing conflicts and learning clauses
12:18:11 <int-e> it's really a technical distinction, not a semantic one.
12:18:16 <shachaf> Yes, and xor clauses do find conflicts and learn clauses, don't they?
12:18:52 <int-e> I forgot about the linear arithmetic
12:18:52 <shachaf> In particular (a⊕b⊕c⊕...) represents a whole bunch of or-clauses at once.
12:20:00 <Alexandra> do you mean, cryptographic compute, is isoteric compue?
12:20:17 <int-e> there's also the whole pseudo-boolean constraints mess where there's an open debate on whether they should be treated as a theory, translated to boolean clauses, or handled by a special solver that knows about weights.
12:29:09 <shachaf> I have a better idea of what E-graphs and E-matching are now.
12:29:21 <shachaf> But I'm still not really clear enough on the whole picture.
12:34:23 -!- Alexandra has left.
12:42:31 <int-e> It's a huge mess :P
12:51:46 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb).
12:51:54 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
12:57:02 -!- lambdabot has joined.
13:34:13 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:51:22 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: and again...).
13:53:47 -!- lambdabot has joined.
13:57:03 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: oops).
13:59:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:01:23 -!- lambdabot has joined.
14:38:52 <esowiki> [[SELECT./99 bottles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79693&oldid=46398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3920) Use a pre; cat; back
14:45:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:49:36 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:52:43 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79694&oldid=69618 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Minification */ CAT
14:59:22 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79695&oldid=78631 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* LOLOL */ Use span clss=spoiler
14:59:27 <Sgeo> Is learncpp.com good? It does seem to go into more advanced things
14:59:47 <Sgeo> Alternatively I should force myself to figure out detours in Rust so I don't contribute to the existence of C++ code
15:00:33 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
15:01:08 <shachaf> Both of them seem too complicated and encourage complicated code.
15:01:16 <shachaf> Rust is surely better, on the former axis.
15:02:04 <shachaf> Oh, actually, you should learn Pascal and tell me what's good about it.
15:02:39 <Sgeo> >.> I may have started doing my current project in C++ because I couldn't figure out why the sample code I was looking at wanted me to cast to (PVOID&) and I didn't figure out the C equivalent until later
15:03:59 <shachaf> That guide doesn't seem like the sort of thing I'd recommend.
15:04:28 <Sgeo> The C API for OpenXR is a bit annoying and there's an... adequate if poorly documented C++ wrapper around it. Takes care of loading in extension functions and needing to call some functions twice
15:05:46 <int-e> The beauty of C++ is that it's easy to find a likeable subset because there's so much of it in the first place.
15:06:08 <shachaf> Well, I don't know what you're doing, but presumably the API boundary isn't going to be that huge so this doesn't seem like a huge consideration.
15:06:21 <shachaf> int-e: Too bad C99 isn't one of the available subsets.
15:07:18 <int-e> I mostly reach for C++ because I like having the various namespaces.
15:07:39 <int-e> in particular the namespace associated with structs
15:08:38 <fizzie> When you say "the namespace associated with structs", I think of the (C) struct/union/enum tag namespace, which you *lose* when going to C++.
15:08:50 <shachaf> Do you mean member functions?
15:09:10 <shachaf> I guess maybe you mean struct A { struct B { } }; and so on.
15:09:36 <shachaf> Or just static member functions.
15:09:42 <int-e> Yes, member functions.
15:10:46 <Sgeo> I don't particularly want to do this repeatedly https://github.com/KhronosGroup/OpenXR-SDK-Source/blob/eedc7df3d99ca7a468d63a574629a9935716ae0b/src/tests/hello_xr/graphicsplugin_opengl.cpp#L91
15:11:01 <Sgeo> Oh hey it's C++ but without that C++ wrapper
15:11:34 <shachaf> Certainly not. I don't know what OpenXR does exactly, anyway.
15:12:15 <int-e> Sgeo: it's a khronic disease
15:12:30 <shachaf> If you just mean GetInstanceProcAddr, that looks like the sort of thing OpenGL and a bunch of things make you do.
15:13:02 <Sgeo> Yeah, that's what I meant
15:13:48 <shachaf> Well, too bad, I guess, this is what they make you do anyway.
15:16:51 <Sgeo> The C++ wrapper defines a dispatcher thing that is provided as a last argument
15:19:05 <shachaf> Well, you can do https://github.com/maluoi/StereoKit/blob/master/StereoKitC/systems/platform/openxr_extensions.h or something.
15:56:03 -!- Alexandra has joined.
15:56:10 -!- Alexandra has left.
16:44:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NicksterSand * New user account
16:50:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79696&oldid=79612 * NicksterSand * (+206) /* Introductions */
18:38:21 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:39:30 -!- xelxebar has joined.
18:40:01 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
18:46:14 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:48:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:48:38 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
18:55:37 <rain1> any cool stuff i should check out?
19:07:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:08:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
19:19:31 <zzo38> What cool stuff do you intend to find anyways?
19:27:56 -!- Alexandra has joined.
19:28:04 -!- Alexandra has left.
19:44:21 <int-e> fungot: anything to see?
19:44:22 <fungot> int-e: imported/ loaded/ whatever.) seriously, though :). my mother thinks i should run it in a fancy closet
19:58:28 <nakilon> fungot tell us more about your mother
19:58:28 <fungot> nakilon: is it me, or do you
19:59:04 <nakilon> fungot till toda we knew only about your father
19:59:04 <fungot> nakilon: what's the lisppaste i should use? ( pen and ink or digital are the main differences that cannot be guessed.) second, sure, deformative-ii. ( ignore set! for assignments, though it's debatable how worthy they are of course, supports the egobot command set.
20:22:06 -!- adu has joined.
21:16:22 <zzo38> This is the (partial) message trace output from Free Hero Mesh showing a problem: http://sprunge.us/QsMqqi
21:19:24 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
21:21:57 <zzo38> I am not sure why sending the MOVED message to the Missile at (8,16) is supposed to be deferred in Hero Mesh; it would seem to have moved (this is what "1 : MOVING : 0 : 16 494 [$Missile 7 16] : 16 494 [$Missile 7 16] : 0 8 : 0 16 : 0 0" is, it is the message sent just before the object moves), and its location seems to be the right place where it should be moved to
21:26:31 <esowiki> [[C Flat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79697 * NicksterSand * (+3633) Created page with "'''C Flat''' (or C) is an [[esoteric programming language]] that uses music as syntax. == Language overview == A C Flat program is a series of chords and rests. These are g..."
21:26:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79698&oldid=79661 * NicksterSand * (+13) /* C */ Added C Flat
22:34:17 -!- delta23 has joined.
23:15:42 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:21:56 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0).
23:43:10 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
23:49:15 -!- TheLie has joined.
23:56:40 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined.
23:59:07 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:59:18 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23.
00:22:43 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:23:07 -!- delta23 has joined.
00:30:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79699 * JonoCode9374 * (+5) Created page with "Fr*ck"
00:45:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:54:59 <esowiki> [[C Flat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79700&oldid=79697 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* External resources */ cat
01:01:32 <esowiki> [[Haifu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79701&oldid=12091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) stub
01:07:29 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
01:07:46 -!- imode has joined.
01:20:30 <esowiki> [[Haifu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79702&oldid=79701 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* External resources */ Deadlink?
01:51:05 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:23:59 -!- sprocklem has joined.
03:40:45 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:38:57 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:19:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Razetime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79703&oldid=79699 * Razetime * (+19)
06:58:33 -!- Alexandra has joined.
07:00:43 -!- Alexandra has left.
07:32:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:29:26 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:58:16 -!- Guest26328 has quit (Changing host).
09:58:16 -!- Guest26328 has joined.
09:58:26 -!- Guest26328 has changed nick to ocharles.
10:09:13 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
10:10:20 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
10:25:53 -!- arseniiv has joined.
12:03:11 <b_jonas> oh no... I found another one of these addictive games that I won't be able to stop playing for two days
12:29:05 <b_jonas> it's too addictive, I'm not sure I want to say it in the channel :(
12:31:25 -!- nfd9001 has joined.
12:34:44 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
12:42:35 <int-e> . o O ( maybe we should just list addictive games until we find the right one )
12:43:49 <int-e> Somehow I've stopped playing the Monstrous Expedition thing
12:46:30 <shachaf> Oh no, I should get back to that.
12:57:16 <int-e> I wonder how to get the level data. I want a full map of the world (ideally generated from the save file and covering the clouded parts) :-/
13:05:10 <nakilon> Factorio? Rimworld? DF? CDDA?
13:08:52 <nakilon> TES-100? Opum Magnum? SpaceChem? Infinifactory? ShenzhenIO?
13:08:56 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79704&oldid=78468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Others */ m
13:11:27 <esowiki> [[Moanfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79705&oldid=79666 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) /* See Also */ cat, list
13:12:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79706&oldid=79698 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* P */ Add [[Pip]]
13:13:45 <int-e> shachaf: did you finish Hiding Spot?
13:15:40 <esowiki> [[Moanfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79707&oldid=79705 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* See Also */ cat
13:15:41 <int-e> (Mainly I'm wondering how you'll like the final level.)
13:16:33 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79708&oldid=79295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* General languages */ Add [[Moanfuck]]
13:17:17 <esowiki> [[Ndef++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79709&oldid=39974 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
13:17:50 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79710&oldid=79708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* General languages */ Use ++
13:27:00 <esowiki> [[Ndef]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79711&oldid=70929 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Examples */ links
13:30:41 <esowiki> [[JarJarScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79712&oldid=61108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) Cats, stub
13:37:55 <esowiki> [[Kate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79713&oldid=74331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) m
13:41:24 <esowiki> [[Pip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79714&oldid=79649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Cats
13:42:05 <nakilon> who is PythonshellDebugwindow?
13:42:58 <nakilon> I thought it's a bot but edit messages are different
14:15:34 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:31:07 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, but one of those is the right genre
14:32:53 <b_jonas> let me give a hint. I am making a factory of green star over diagonally colored red and white circle, because that's required to unlock the tier 4 cutting, rotating and slicing upgrade.
14:33:32 <fizzie> Sounds like the shapez thing.
14:34:17 <fizzie> I played the free version for a bit, but didn't get stuck.
14:34:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it's shapez.io, the free demo version
14:35:36 <fizzie> Steam's been trying to sell me the full version in the "players like you love" box.
14:36:26 <fizzie> (EXAPUNKS is -50% off in their sale, and I've been seriously considering finally getting it.)
14:49:32 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:55:40 <nakilon> Steam's "Interactive recommender" or whatever they call it is an awesome thing
14:55:47 <nakilon> previously it was in Steam Labs I guess
14:56:13 <nakilon> you just move a slider to "less popular" and get awesome games you didn't play yet
14:58:00 <nakilon> b_jonas are you PythonshellDebugwindow?
14:58:17 <nakilon> oh no, I guess I saw your username there
14:58:28 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79715&oldid=79435 * Sinthorion * (-97)
16:55:09 -!- delta23 has joined.
17:12:58 <fizzie> Aw, my phone's started to swell up; there's now a small gap between the back and the rest of the case. :/
17:15:39 <kmc> time to yeet it at someone you don't like?
17:28:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: that doesn't sound good
17:29:35 <b_jonas> also, I just got the "we one million dollars of inheritence for you" spam in French. I think that's a first, but of course I delete a lot of spam and forget it immediately
17:43:38 <fizzie> "Warranty expired 11 Nov 2020". They've really optimized that timing again.
17:52:18 <nakilon> I remember my first multimillion inheritance
17:52:57 <nakilon> they asked $1000 for the operation though and I didn't have it
17:53:05 <nakilon> so also I felt like a loser
17:53:56 <kmc> lol, owned
18:11:44 -!- TheLie has joined.
18:16:38 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:47:22 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:48:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:48:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:12:21 <arseniiv> is there a bot command to get a multiocular o delivered to the chat?
19:15:16 <arseniiv> fizzie: ow, is it right that’s because of the battery swelling? I had a battery swell in a portable speaker thing, and it ceased to charge to a substantial amount, though I presume your phone still holds charge more or less normally
19:15:29 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
19:17:31 <arseniiv> fizzie: thanks! great limerick
19:18:34 <fizzie> I think it's probably because of the battery swelling, it bulges up from the middle, and people were reporting this quite a lot with the Pixel 3 (which that phone is) specifically. Haven't really been watching how well it holds charge. It's not my "primary" phone.
19:36:52 <Hooloovo0> I'll second that it's an awesome limerick
19:37:22 <arseniiv> I have an older phone serving as alarm clock, timer and a bit of this and that, and as it usually isn’t connected to anything, it may hold charge almost for a week
19:38:12 <Hooloovo0> I have a similar one. have to keep it in airplane mode to actually turn off the radio, but it's pretty good
19:38:37 <arseniiv> (no wi-fi, no mobile service, no geolocation. and it makes a huge difference)
19:38:38 <arseniiv> yeah, airplane mode is useful!
19:39:13 <Hooloovo0> I also use it for podcasts/music sometimes, so I keep wifi on
19:39:56 <Hooloovo0> if I'm on the go it's also the ham-radio-satellite phone since it's easier to operate with gloves on
19:42:35 <arseniiv> mine has some problems with available RAM so it’s not too good for intensive use. I don’t know how it was usable years before…
19:42:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:42:50 <Hooloovo0> recently had a nice little palmtop, the gpd win 1, die because of a swollen battery; I'm planning on just hooking up a massive external battery that I charge sometimes with a real charger
19:43:28 <Hooloovo0> the charger in the gpd is known to overcharge
19:45:34 <Hooloovo0> yeah, same. can't do web browsing without reloading basically every page I visit
19:45:58 <Hooloovo0> I mean, in the past, web pages were *significantly* simpler
19:46:25 <Hooloovo0> like, my kindle no longer gets wikipedia pages
19:47:06 <Hooloovo0> (though it's 50-50 whether that's amazon or wikipedia's fault)
19:57:59 -!- xelxebar has joined.
20:19:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ix2 * New user account
20:24:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79716&oldid=79696 * Ix2 * (+322) /* Introductions */
21:05:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:09:53 -!- delta23 has joined.
21:41:03 <esowiki> [[Jenl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79717 * Ix2 * (+2105) Created page with "Jenl is a language for those who are lazy to write complicated parsers, especially expression parsers, they've been known to be the pain. Jenl's parsers are taking tokens and..."
21:42:29 <esowiki> [[Jenl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79718&oldid=79717 * Ix2 * (+102)
21:46:25 <esowiki> [[Jenl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79719&oldid=79718 * Ix2 * (+36)
22:08:43 -!- Arcorann has joined.
22:35:54 <shachaf> int-e: No, I haven't done more of that either. I should do that.
22:49:48 <int-e> Hmm, EXApunks does start out pretty neat. Let's see if it follows the same route as other Zachtronics games where later task often get mindnumbingly tedious.
23:36:02 -!- imode has joined.
00:08:35 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0).
00:17:54 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:22:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:24:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:44:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79720&oldid=79706 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) Add [[Jenl]] in /* J */
00:51:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:13:30 -!- sprocklem has joined.
04:18:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:19:46 -!- xelxebar has joined.
06:35:38 -!- Alexandra has joined.
06:37:31 -!- Alexandra has left.
07:18:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:09:37 <esowiki> [[UberGenes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79721&oldid=53521 * Quintopia * (+154) /* Examples */
08:19:12 -!- LKoen has joined.
08:58:34 -!- arseniiv has joined.
09:43:58 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:50:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:44:31 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79722&oldid=79715 * Quintopia * (+18) cat (year)
11:03:36 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79723&oldid=74847 * Quintopia * (+57) mention another TCness proof
11:05:09 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79724&oldid=79723 * Quintopia * (+1) oops
11:14:40 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:55:55 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
12:18:38 -!- LKoen_ has joined.
12:18:43 <esowiki> [[UberGenes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79725&oldid=79721 * Quintopia * (-3) simplify parity example
12:21:21 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:27:24 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Days with nothing. That's what it's like when you work cases. Days're like.. lost dogs. Goes on like that. You know the job. You're looking for narrative. Interrogate witnesses, partial evidence, establish a timeline, build a story, day after day.).
12:52:46 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:02:11 -!- TheLie has joined.
14:14:54 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:34:38 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:49:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:52:40 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:41:20 -!- LKoen has joined.
15:48:00 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:50:04 -!- LKoen has joined.
15:54:51 -!- delta23 has joined.
16:42:58 -!- imode has joined.
16:51:11 -!- xelxebar has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
16:51:20 -!- xelxebar_ has joined.
17:10:36 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:43:40 <esowiki> [[Container]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79726&oldid=62037 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Fix username
17:47:20 <esowiki> [[SELECT.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79727&oldid=53131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Implementation */ cat
17:48:07 <esowiki> [[QaSaC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79728&oldid=69908 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) rm a link
17:55:13 -!- delta23 has joined.
18:41:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:41:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
18:47:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
18:50:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
19:18:17 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:43:02 <zzo38> I should need to make the graphics for displaying the key codes in Free Hero Mesh, and/or possibly other can help with such a thing too
20:06:49 <esowiki> [[Stackstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79729&oldid=44590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Interpreter */ wayback
20:18:42 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:33:40 -!- Cale has joined.
21:22:36 -!- delta23 has joined.
22:13:50 -!- b4er has joined.
22:33:28 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79730&oldid=79724 * Quintopia * (-1) Undo revision 79724 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]])
22:34:01 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79731&oldid=79730 * Quintopia * (-57) Undo revision 79723 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]]) I was wrong
23:08:55 -!- MDude has joined.
23:09:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:18:21 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0).
23:18:41 -!- b4er has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:20:22 -!- tromp has joined.
23:36:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:36:33 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:39:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:46:00 -!- tromp has joined.
23:47:11 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:47:36 -!- tromp has joined.
23:51:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:05:30 -!- zseri has joined.
00:08:06 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit).
00:08:24 -!- zseri has joined.
00:09:20 -!- tromp has joined.
00:12:20 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit).
00:25:14 -!- zseri has joined.
00:31:15 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
00:36:35 -!- zseri has joined.
00:36:55 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit).
00:47:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:54:35 -!- zseri has joined.
01:21:08 -!- tromp has joined.
01:26:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:09:31 -!- tromp has joined.
02:14:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:35:42 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
03:03:39 -!- tromp has joined.
03:07:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:57:43 -!- tromp has joined.
04:02:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:37:09 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
04:40:54 -!- adu has joined.
04:43:37 <esowiki> [[Category:2021]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79732 * Hakerh400 * (+11) Category for the new year
04:43:40 <esowiki> [[Template:Yearcats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79733&oldid=68543 * Hakerh400 * (+26) Category for the new year
04:51:50 -!- tromp has joined.
04:56:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:59:39 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
05:30:44 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79734&oldid=79671 * Tetrapyronia * (+67)
05:31:31 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79735&oldid=79734 * Tetrapyronia * (+30)
05:37:51 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
05:45:58 -!- tromp has joined.
05:50:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:23:55 -!- adu has joined.
06:40:05 -!- tromp has joined.
06:44:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
06:48:33 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
07:28:47 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:34:18 -!- tromp has joined.
07:38:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:54:32 -!- tromp has joined.
09:08:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:18:24 -!- b4er has joined.
09:30:29 -!- user24 has joined.
09:45:05 <esowiki> [[Wigner's Fuckbuddy Is A Superposition of Top And Bottom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79736&oldid=74884 * Quintopia * (-21) it wasn't
09:47:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:50:23 -!- Arcorann has joined.
10:04:54 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
10:05:46 <esowiki> [[Hny021]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79737 * Hakerh400 * (+4188) +[[hny021]]
10:06:35 -!- sprocklem has joined.
10:07:11 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79738&oldid=79720 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[hny021]]
10:08:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79739&oldid=77065 * Quintopia * (+552) /* Can we have an Imperative paradigm category now please? */ new section
10:09:24 -!- rain1 has joined.
10:27:11 <esowiki> [[BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79740&oldid=51649 * Quintopia * (+19) cat: total
10:27:35 <esowiki> [[ABCDXYZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79741&oldid=30848 * Quintopia * (+19) cat: total
10:44:03 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:13:03 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
11:13:40 <kspalaiologos> i'm having some trouble working around whitespace. i tried writing a disassembler for it, but i failed a bit
11:13:51 <kspalaiologos> https://vii5ard.github.io/whitespace/ i downloaded the calc.ws program from here
11:14:26 <kspalaiologos> but first of all, it seems like label id's are horrendously large, and second, the label with id `1600482916` seems to repeat
11:15:35 <kspalaiologos> everything other than labels seems to parse correctly
11:15:51 <kspalaiologos> all numerals work, the disassembled code totally makes sense, except labels
11:16:11 <kspalaiologos> is there something i'm missing? the wiki doesn't make any distinction between a label and a number
11:18:57 -!- aaa113 has joined.
11:21:17 -!- aaa113 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:27:35 <kspalaiologos> another update: it seems like it parses two labels, at offsets 2424 and 2159, and the numbers behind these seem the same, and absurdly big
11:28:03 <kspalaiologos> `cat calc.ws | head -c 2454 | tail -c 30 | xxd` and `cat calc.ws | head -c 2189 | tail -c 30 | xxd` give the exact same ooutput
11:28:05 <HackEso> cat: 'calc.ws | head -c 2454 | tail -c 30 | xxd` and `cat calc.ws | head -c 2189 | tail -c 30 | xxd` give the exact same ooutput': No such file or directory
11:35:58 -!- aaa113 has joined.
11:44:05 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79742 * Tetrapyronia * (+2048) happy new years :)
11:45:05 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79743&oldid=79673 * Tetrapyronia * (+47)
11:45:56 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79744&oldid=79735 * Tetrapyronia * (+28)
11:46:09 -!- aaa113 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:00:40 -!- kolontaev has joined.
12:00:52 -!- kolontaev has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:04:54 -!- kolontaev has joined.
12:05:25 -!- kolontaev has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:06:02 -!- spiegelau has joined.
12:06:19 -!- spiegelau has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:06:24 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:07:19 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
12:39:26 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9).
13:55:59 -!- MDude has joined.
14:09:47 <esowiki> [[Hny021]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79745&oldid=79737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Interpreters */ link
14:14:00 <esowiki> [[SELENE.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79746&oldid=79742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* External Resources */ cats
14:15:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79747&oldid=79738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* S */ Add [[SELENE.]] and [[SELECT.]]
14:23:45 <esowiki> [[UM-32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79748&oldid=68096 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* See also */ cat
14:29:28 <esowiki> [[Rotpai]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79749&oldid=63910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) /* Syntax and execution */ grm, code tag
14:30:02 <esowiki> [[Rotpai]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79750&oldid=79749 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Computational Class */ CAT
14:33:02 <esowiki> [[? $51=]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79751&oldid=73428 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+187) grm, cats
14:48:49 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:58:26 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:59:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:49:46 -!- arseniiv has joined.
16:45:43 <int-e> you seem to be off by 5 hours
16:46:34 <kspalaiologos> if anyone was wondering about my solution - there is a thing the wiki didn't state
16:46:47 <kspalaiologos> and i think it should state it - the label id's _often_ exceed int64 range
16:47:34 <kspalaiologos> to speed up the execution, I personally first store them as strings, then assign numerical id's to everything, then free the strings
16:47:55 <kspalaiologos> i should probably make a gmp version of this interpreter for bignum stack/heap, but it's a thing to do soon(ish)
16:53:25 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:59:37 -!- user24 has joined.
18:02:33 <b_jonas> if there's anyone in Australia or New Zealand or Japan or thereabouts, happy new year to them
18:03:02 <b_jonas> otherwise we'll wait one more hour and then we can wish happy new year to arseniiv
18:19:10 <arseniiv> <int-e> you seem to be off by 5 hours => ow, I offsetted the wrong way again
18:32:52 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79752&oldid=79497 * Hakerh400 * (+35)
18:36:12 <rain1> what langs exist which operator soley by manipulating a single integer?
18:42:20 -!- iovoid has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:43:38 -!- iovoid has joined.
18:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
18:50:39 <arseniiv> rain1: Minsky machine in a multiplicative interpretation, but I presume that would be boring
18:51:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:51:17 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:10:48 <arseniiv> I am renewed but don’t feel it in any way :D
19:16:33 -!- Alexandra has joined.
19:16:42 -!- Alexandra has left.
19:37:12 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:38:35 -!- sftp has joined.
19:43:55 -!- delta23 has joined.
19:49:16 -!- jess has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:49:20 -!- jess has joined.
20:20:12 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
20:22:56 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:32:10 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
20:43:51 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:02:57 <fizzie> Happy new year to anyone back in EET and other aligned time zones.
22:03:00 <fizzie> (I've been watching the Finnish public broadcaster's new year's thing; unlike pretty much everything else they show, they've made it non-country-restricted.)
22:05:07 <fizzie> They've got a conventional orchestra playing an arrangement of Darude's Sandstorm to celebrate.
22:06:55 <b_jonas> Happy new year Finland, Romania, Greece, Israel, and everyone else who is in UTC+2
22:07:19 <b_jonas> and a belated happy new year to everyone else east of that
22:08:12 <fizzie> Hah, they cut off the stream the minute it switched to the afterparty program.
22:08:18 <fizzie> "Tämä ohjelma on katsottavissa vain Suomessa / Detta program kan ses endast i Finland"
22:12:42 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:18:52 <rain1> Darude's Sandstorm Orchestra
22:43:18 -!- imode has joined.
22:55:18 <b_jonas> prepare for new year rituals!
22:55:21 <esowiki> [[Mobius]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79753&oldid=66277 * Quintopia * (+35) cat: computational class
23:02:00 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:03:32 <b_jonas> live television stream is about a minute late. that's what I get for no television receiver. it's a choice between that and the radio with no delay.
23:07:44 <b_jonas> also happy new year to the large part of Europe, including France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Switzerland,
23:08:18 <b_jonas> Austria, all of ex-Yugoslavia, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, etc
23:08:47 <b_jonas> and anyone else who is in +01 timezone offset
23:09:05 <kmc> I have a mini projector which I mainly use as a HDMI monitor for downloaded content, but it also has an ATSC tuner and I got an antenna, which is occasionally useful
23:09:34 <kmc> sadly, ATSC uses too much RF bandwidth to be received with the common hobbyist level SDR sticks
23:13:55 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79754&oldid=79632 * Quintopia * (+110) /* Interpreters written in Python */
23:18:42 <b_jonas> the president talked of the restrictions and thanked the health workers. who could have guessed?
23:19:17 <b_jonas> he also avoided saying anything controversial or too political during his new year speech. I like that.
23:35:14 -!- outing has joined.
23:38:05 <b_jonas> ok, so the Wiener Philharmoniker New Year concert starts at 11:15 local (10:15Z). I'll set an alarm to make sure not to miss it.
23:41:56 <b_jonas> conductor for the orchestra is Riccardo Muti