←2022-01 2022-02 2022-03→ ↑2022 ↑all
2022-02-01
00:23:10 <zzo38> Even if it says "you lose the game" and also split second, still you can win, anyways.
00:30:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, the opponent could be stupid and react by damaging themselves with the mana ability of an Underground River
00:31:06 <b_jonas> that will make them lose before your split second card can resolve
00:34:43 <b_jonas> or they could lose from a trigger
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01:10:24 <oerjan> ooh langton's ant in backflip
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01:16:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92732&oldid=92723 * Oerjan * (+91) /* Similarity to ants/turmites */ Cool!
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01:22:24 <oerjan> <tromp> int-e: remember i claimed that a CL basis of regular combinators needs one with 3 variables? <-- are you about to retract that claim? :)
01:24:00 <oerjan> . o O ( you know you're doing real science when being wrong is as exciting as being right )
01:24:34 <oerjan> or math.
01:24:55 <oerjan> *research
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01:26:49 <oerjan> hm i wonder if anyone famous has said something similar
01:29:29 <oerjan> The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not “Eureka” but “That's funny...” —Isaac Asimov
01:29:32 <oerjan> close enough
01:29:39 <oerjan> no wait
01:29:44 <oerjan> just parallel
01:33:30 <oerjan> last the whiteboard seems a bit anticlimactic
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02:32:42 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92733&oldid=92731 * Laclale * (+663) /* Commands */
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03:32:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[User:Inferno/foresolang]] to [[Foresolang]]: In the language list, no special reason otherwise, so it should be in the main namespace
03:38:48 <oerjan> User:Language obviously has a special reason and i don't know what to do about that Melab thing.
03:52:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Y (programming language)]] to [[Y (Conor O'Brien)]]: More useful disambiguation
03:52:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Talk:Y (programming language)]] to [[Talk:Y (Conor O'Brien)]]: More useful disambiguation
03:54:09 <esolangs> [[Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92740&oldid=60801 * Oerjan * (-7) Snap redirect
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03:58:36 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92741&oldid=92733 * Laclale * (+188) /* Commands */
04:02:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Y (Conor O'Brien)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92742&oldid=92738 * Oerjan * (+378) Half done
04:08:18 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92743&oldid=92741 * Laclale * (+37) /* Commands */
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04:13:32 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92744&oldid=92743 * Laclale * (+40) /* Commands */
04:25:49 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92745&oldid=92700 * Oerjan * (+67) Ginorst & some cleanup
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08:43:09 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92746&oldid=92744 * Laclale * (+153) /* Commands */
09:12:19 <int-e> tromp: I do remember, same question as oerjan...
09:13:19 <int-e> meh, I missed an announcement that there's no running water today.
09:16:05 <int-e> though I did avoid worst case scenarios like... being in the showerwhile they switch the water off
09:16:39 <oerjan> ouch
09:17:36 <FireFly> heh
09:20:52 <int-e> (And it'll be back mid afternoon. They did the same thing last Thursday, but that time I was prepared.)
09:25:22 <int-e> "файл" always cracks me up when I see it. (duckduckgo seems to think I'm russian)
09:26:55 <int-e> (it's a phonetic transliteration of "file")
09:53:36 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btv68SAk-oM <- I think the first half of this video was great
09:53:41 <riv> I closed it for the second half
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11:05:22 <riv> fungot: You CAPTCHALOGUE them in your SYLLADEX. You have no idea what that actually means though.
11:05:23 <fungot> riv: why are there so few major lisps? ( networking and concurrency, despite my fnord it assumes absolute... if you wanted :)
11:15:17 <riv> > UTC is currently exactly 37 seconds behind TAI. The 37 seconds result from the initial difference of 10 seconds at the start of 1972, plus 27 leap seconds in UTC since 1972.
11:15:18 <riv> > It is also easy to convert GPS time to TAI, as TAI is always exactly 19 seconds ahead of GPS time
11:15:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:99: error: parse error on input ‘of’
11:15:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:43: error: parse error on input ‘,’
11:15:36 <riv> nmbers related to leap seconds: 37, 27, 10, 19
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11:29:30 <int-e> fungot: should I fix these 38 warnings? :-/
11:29:30 <fungot> int-e: can't grep for the stuff it needs ( such as those depicted on that page
11:30:07 <riv> fungot: you dropped this: )
11:30:08 <fungot> riv: s/ hum/ fnord right now. need to not compile one or the other
11:31:45 <int-e> (some of those are stupid. i8 = i8 + i8 causes C++ to implicitly convert to int, then complain about the narrowing back to i8. Uh, where i8 = int8_t = signed char.)
11:32:07 <int-e> s/C++/g++/
11:33:27 <sknebel> free overflow risk warning :D
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11:34:07 <int-e> apparently clang++ treats it as an error.
11:36:05 <int-e> sknebel: fine, but then why doesn't it give int + int the same treeatment...
11:38:14 <sknebel> yeah, it should offer that too
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12:03:07 <tromp> int-e: i made some conjectures that would imply that result, hoping to prove them. but i alrd found counterexamples to two different conjectures. i'll keep trying though, using every counterexampole to make a new conjecture....
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12:16:25 <fizzie> ^style homestuck
12:16:25 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
12:16:32 <fizzie> fungot: Say something thematically appropriate?
12:16:32 <fungot> fizzie: not that it would actually bother pitying you. i'm giving aradia a present that will make a new suit is all business quite frankly his brother makes a man want
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12:16:46 <fizzie> Slightly disappointing.
12:30:47 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92747&oldid=92690 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+162) /* Ideas for Names */ This is not a page request.
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12:36:07 <int-e> is this a bell curve? https://paste.debian.net/1229174/
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12:37:00 <riv> :)
12:37:43 <sknebel> over the weekend I stumbled over https://esolangs.org/wiki/LogOS
12:38:07 <sknebel> would be fun to have something along those lines where the interpreter works by clicking/alt-tabbing around a windows98 VM or sth
12:38:33 <sknebel> (also, the proposed spec seems to lack branching?)
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12:44:35 <esolangs> [[User:ProjectEuler/pagebar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92748&oldid=91813 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+627) Attempt to fix a bug
12:55:25 <riv> fungot: by gum!
12:55:26 <fungot> riv: is it fair to say this whole thing is ridiculous
12:57:26 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92749&oldid=91819 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+206) Fixed template bug
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13:08:01 <riv> https://www.homestuck.com/story/115
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13:17:31 <oerjan> fungot: pretty fair
13:17:31 <fungot> oerjan: be in cahoots with! you guess none the wiser, you board the shuttle. next stop, it's unbecoming suspense. you sincerely pity anyone who might be forced to face. you are jacked open on my lap and primed for the digestive ruination that's about to take is the ultimate riddle.
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13:18:36 <int-e> ^style
13:18:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
13:18:56 <int-e> `? password
13:18:58 <HackEso> The password of the month is Caught-22
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14:34:34 <kit> hi, im making an esolang based on sound frequencies via FFT and i need some help on deciding how i should convert frequencies to commands and stuff
14:35:10 <kit> idk what commands should be what frequencies
14:35:14 <kit> like
14:35:34 <kit> yea
14:35:40 <kit> idk how to phrase it?
14:36:01 <kit> i already have the thing to parse the pitches from the audio file
14:36:13 <kit> and convert it into a format that can be easily interpreted
14:36:19 <kit> i just need to make the interpreter
14:37:18 <kit> perhaps i can make it stack based
14:37:31 <kit> stack based langs are fun
14:38:43 <sknebel> I guess the "lazy" way is mapping to symbols in some other esolang. i.e. see all the variants of brainfuck that are brainfuck with other symbols. but there could be fun things with multiple frequencies in parallel
14:39:05 <kit> yea i was thinking about asynchronous
14:39:23 <sknebel> e.g. conditional jumps could be a tone splitting into two, and following the higher/lower one as a "line" to the right command sequence?
14:39:28 <kit> but i also dont want it to be a bf derivative because those are done to fucking death
14:39:33 <sknebel> yeah :D
14:39:42 <kit> hmm
14:39:55 <kit> i was thinking id map commands to frequencies
14:40:13 <kit> and for asynchronousity you can have multiple commands run at the same time
14:40:28 <kit> say, 440hz would be print or smth
14:40:49 <kit> but then comes the question how would i deal with multiple things modifying the same thing at once
14:43:08 <kit> ooh what if i had octaves mapped to various stacks
14:44:42 <kit> huh, how come when i go to places to talk about a problem im having i always figure it out myselgf
14:45:30 <kit> i could have commands mapped to chords, octaves map to different stacks...
14:45:34 <kit> bee
14:47:30 <sknebel> octave stacks is a fun idea
14:47:43 <sknebel> so you have multiple threads
14:56:13 <kit> wait
14:56:26 <kit> how would i deal with non-linear time things
14:56:27 <kit> like
14:56:28 <kit> loops
14:56:31 <kit> and conditionals
14:56:52 <kit> atm its just a stream of frequencies present in the audio
14:57:20 <kit> i may need to divide the frequencies up during preprocessing
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15:06:39 <kit> im beginning to realize that it was a really bad idea to do this in C++...
15:07:22 <kit> fuck it im rewriting it in python
15:11:39 <kit> nope
15:11:58 <kit> i do not like python
15:12:05 <kit> im rambling arent i
15:12:10 <kit> ill shut up now
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16:04:14 <tromp> inr-e: here's my current Combinatory Logic Basis conjecture. Let T be a term over a basis of regular 2-variable combinators
16:06:21 <tromp> then 1) T contains no subterm with 3 free variables, and 2) T contains no subterm T' with 2 free variables which has a subsubterm T'' with 2 free variables that are bound in T'
16:08:14 <tromp> it seems to me that 1) & 2) together are preserved under beta reduction
16:10:17 <tromp> to clarify, the pattern that 2) avoids is T = ... \x ... \y. T_xy, and T_xy = ... \a ... \b. T_ab
16:10:38 <tromp> with T_xy denoting a term contains variables x and y
16:11:35 <tromp> (I should have added more ... after those T_)
16:13:51 <tromp> and inr-e should be int-e :-)
16:17:59 <riv> > "the Indian numbering system groups the rightmost three digits together (until the hundreds place), and thereafter groups by sets of two digits."
16:18:00 <lambdabot> "the Indian numbering system groups the rightmost three digits together (unt...
16:28:28 <int-e> hmm, can gdb access varargs arguments in a convenient way?
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16:41:16 <int-e> I guess not, but `info frame` gives me stack pointers to look nearby.
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17:02:51 <shachaf> i,i "The full documentation for the stack frame is maintained as a Texinfo manual."
17:04:42 <int-e> is there something magical about va_start() that relies on information that only the compiler knows, not the debugger?
17:07:13 <shachaf> I would guess that on a platform like amd64 with a complicated calling convention, the presence of va_start in a function tells the compiler to save registers in case it needs them.
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17:13:50 <leah2> go crux
17:13:56 <leah2> bla
17:14:35 <int-e> tromp: I don't understand the clarification of 2). Shouldn't there be x and y under the \a \b?
17:15:16 <tromp> no, that's not required
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17:17:02 <tromp> the thing is that a term as in 1) that fails 2) as stated can beta reduce in one step to a term that fails 1)
17:17:57 <tromp> simplest example being \x\y.(\a\z.z a) (x y)
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17:20:56 <int-e> Ah.
17:21:37 <int-e> Right, 1) means you can't have x or y free in T_ab because that would make 3 free variables.
17:21:51 <tromp> the conjecture should exclude all patterns that through beta reduction can result in a regular 3-variable combinator
17:22:45 <tromp> right
17:25:16 <tromp> quiz time: what's the simplest complete basis including W = \x\y.x y y as the only duplicating combinator?
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18:14:33 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92750&oldid=92749 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) /* C */ remove unused #define
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20:32:36 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_formatting_and_storage_bugs#Year_2022
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2022-02-02
00:20:35 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
00:20:36 <fungot> b_jonas: this is a man to treasure. the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or a cunning prankster than a common sort.
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00:29:30 <esolangs> [[Cmpilr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92751 * Grom * (+2136) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Cmpilr |paradigms=not specified |author=[[User:Grom]] |year=[[:Category:2022|2022]] |class=:Category:Optionally Turing_complete|Optionally Turing co..."
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02:18:05 <esolangs> [[ASCIIORb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92752 * Threesodas * (+4372) Created page with "[[Category:2022]][[Category:Unimplemented]][[Category:Languages]][[Category:Stack-based]] '''ASCIIORb''' is a [[stack]]-based language that follows the "syntax" of the '''@ORb..."
02:18:36 <esolangs> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92753&oldid=92611 * Threesodas * (-42)
02:19:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92754&oldid=92745 * Threesodas * (+15) Add ASCIIORb
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03:04:21 <que11en> m0ther: i have deactivated the self-destruction protocol
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04:52:09 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92755&oldid=92729 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Interpreter Status */
04:52:59 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92756&oldid=92755 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1329) /* Considerations for Future Changes */
04:53:09 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92757&oldid=92756 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Considerations for Future Changes */
04:53:29 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92758&oldid=92757 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
04:56:48 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92759&oldid=92758 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
04:58:24 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92760&oldid=92759 * PixelatedStarfish * (-157) /* Interpreter Status */
05:01:29 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92761&oldid=92760 * PixelatedStarfish * (+367) /* Instruction Set */
05:03:15 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92762&oldid=92761 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Instruction Set */
05:04:36 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92763&oldid=92762 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:06:59 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92764&oldid=92763 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74) /* Error Codes */
05:07:51 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92765&oldid=92764 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Error Codes */
05:08:33 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92766&oldid=92765 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Error Codes */
05:09:33 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92767&oldid=92766 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* False Machine */
05:09:50 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92768&oldid=92767 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* False Machine */
05:10:47 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92769&oldid=92768 * PixelatedStarfish * (+46) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:11:00 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92770&oldid=92769 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:11:45 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92771&oldid=92770 * PixelatedStarfish * (+177) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:12:15 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92772&oldid=92582 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* MacroBeep */
05:13:15 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92773&oldid=92771 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
05:14:34 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92774&oldid=92773 * PixelatedStarfish * (-100) /* Considerations for Future Changes */
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05:24:12 <oerjan> <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_formatting_and_storage_bugs#Year_2022 <-- a bit depressing, that page
05:25:23 <int-e> *sigh* today: no hot water
05:26:08 <int-e> Oh well. I hope they just forgot to turn off the central boiler and didn't actually break anything.
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05:53:57 <oerjan> splitty today
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06:43:47 <oerjan> now to check if zeetha reacts as i expect
06:44:18 <oerjan> yep :P
06:48:27 <oerjan> i am slightly annoyed at an inconsistency i noticed.
06:48:49 <oerjan> the brekkah stone is supposedly _older_ than luheia - lost before she was born.
06:49:14 <oerjan> but also, luheia supposedly _led_ them through the mirror to skifander.
06:49:22 <oerjan> iirc
06:49:37 <oerjan> which means the stone _shouldn't_ be from there.
06:52:08 <oerjan> also, they totally should get the stone packed away before lady before the enemy shows up.
06:52:28 <oerjan> *-lady (steelgarter)
06:52:39 <oerjan> *-before
06:56:15 <oerjan> also, keep it away from dupree, but they don't know that.
06:59:56 <int-e> oerjan: hmm *reading* the Brek'kah stone is one of a pair; what if that pair is linked regardless of where they are? :P
07:01:20 <oerjan> ah yes that might be it
07:02:27 <int-e> It's enough for a writer to wiggle out of it, I think. :)
07:02:44 <oerjan> i'll grant it
07:06:49 <int-e> oh, warm water... yay for minor miracles
07:24:30 <tromp> any guesses on simplest addition to {K,W} to make a basis for CL?
07:40:59 <Palaiologos[m]> B, C?
07:42:16 <tromp> that works, but is not the simplest
07:42:48 <tromp> in terms of size of the basis combinators
07:43:05 <Palaiologos[m]> how is the size defined?
07:43:53 <riv> binary lambda calculus
07:43:58 <tromp> Sizes in binary lambda calculus are defined by size(lambda M)=2+size(M), size(M N)=2+size(M)+size(N), and size(V)=1+i for a variable V bound by the i-th enclosing lambda.
07:44:25 <tromp> ( from https://oeis.org/A333479 )
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07:57:47 <Palaiologos[m]> i see.
07:57:56 <Palaiologos[m]> i don't have the resources to check my ideas at the moment
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08:03:22 <tromp> {K,W,S} works too, but is not a minimal size addition either
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08:08:16 <Palaiologos[m]> i've heard about Wolfram willing to pay someone for proving that just the S combinator is TC
08:08:26 <Palaiologos[m]> do you think such a proof is possible?
08:14:50 <tromp> no, i don't think so.
08:18:56 <oerjan> int-e: oh hm https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140509
08:19:19 <oerjan> it doesn't say explicitly it was luheia who did it
08:19:53 <oerjan> (took me a while to binge to the right place :) )
08:22:23 <oerjan> Palaiologos[m]: it's probably "universal" rather than TC, which means the definition is vague and up for discussion
08:23:44 <oerjan> (specifically, it's been proved that normalizability of S-expressions is decidable, so you would need to consider non-halting computations at the very least)
08:24:10 <oerjan> (someone linked a nice table in this channel back when it was discussed)
08:24:52 <int-e> Wolfram knows this though, and explicitly asks about some TC structure in the nonterminating computations
08:25:10 <int-e> But that makes things very murky.
08:25:23 <riv> S-expressions being (SS)S(SS)(SS(S)S) type things
08:25:29 <int-e> In particular it's so ill-defined that you can't hope to *disprove* that this is TC.
08:25:49 <riv> as opposed to s-expressions which are like ((S S) S (S S) (S S (S) S))
08:25:58 <int-e> Because there'll always be ways to shift the goalpost further away.
08:26:56 <int-e> (the table was actually from one of Wolfram's posts about this)
08:27:31 <oerjan> riv: i couldn't resist punning, as usual
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09:39:56 <salpynx> tromp: is it one of the Q bird combinators? A guess, picking something that is Bish and Cish.
09:46:41 <salpynx> was going to say S, but you covered that above. My guess: λabc.a(cb) (Q1 / apparently 'Quixotic'), maybe Q, λabc.b(ac), ('Queer')?
09:47:06 <Palaiologos[m]> queer combinator
09:51:09 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92775&oldid=88355 * Soyuzguy123! * (+1488) dont chuck this off as a broken page, its still under construction dw
09:52:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Soyuzguy123! * uploaded "[[File:SRlang logo-removebg-preview.png]]": Logo for a language
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09:54:37 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92777&oldid=92775 * Soyuzguy123! * (+35)
09:56:04 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92778&oldid=92777 * Soyuzguy123! * (+2)
10:04:56 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92779 * Citrons * (+6030) apioform
10:15:56 <tromp> Queer it is!
10:16:26 <tromp> {K,W,Q} is a basis
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11:25:01 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92780&oldid=92779 * Citrons * (+1) typo
11:34:58 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92781&oldid=92780 * Citrons * (+58) add categories
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12:35:00 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92782&oldid=92746 * Laclale * (+170) /* Commands */
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12:38:35 <wib_jonas> we need a new password
12:42:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm still sticking to my opinion that it's not a problem that we're looking only among non-terminating behavior, because old personal computers all have a power supply and RAM that can't be stopped programmatically, so all the programs on it never halt, but nobody would think that that's an obstacle to them doing universal computations. that
12:42:28 <wib_jonas> their RAM and backing storage is small can be an obstacle, but that won't be a problem with a combinator basis.
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12:43:46 <Palaiologos[m]> wib_jonas: don't old computers have a BIOS call for restarting the machine from scratch including the POST, etc..., meaning that they do theoretically halt for a short while?
12:44:14 <Palaiologos[m]> is halting even considered a subset of restarting, hm
12:47:05 <wib_jonas> Palaiologos[m]: there's a reboot routine which eg. resets the video card settigns, stops the sound from the sound chip, etc. it's useful in practice because (1) it reinitializes hardware from most of the broken states that an incorrect program could put them into, and (2) it works even after thrashing memory, because it only relies on the data in
12:47:05 <wib_jonas> the ROM. but none of that behavior is special to the BIOS, a normal program (perhaps customized for the specific hardaware) could do just the same. and in particular, it won't affect the power supply or RAM or CPU in any special way.
12:48:00 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation.
12:48:02 <wib_jonas> You can say that the display on the monitor or the sound from the speaker is a nice observable output, more so than whatever is written to the memory or extension port, so it's a good alternative to halting.
12:48:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation.
12:48:42 <wib_jonas> That shows why you can use the monitor, sound, or many other optional external hardware like disks to get a result from a program, without caring about whether the program halts.
12:49:20 <wib_jonas> You can say that the combinator calculus with just S doesn't have such nice external signs, so you need a much less clear definition of what you want to observe (rather than halting).
12:49:30 <Palaiologos[m]> isn't halting just an arbitrary state though? we could define the program in the state after executing `cli / hlt` as halted without the power going out.
12:50:12 <wib_jonas> You can't just say that you can observe whatever is apparent to an untrained user, i.e. without probing the bus with a signal generator, because combinator calculus doesn't have that distinction.
12:52:41 <wib_jonas> Palaiologos: the halt thing applies to a modern CPU like 8086, and I'm not even sure you can really observe it externally until even later CPUs add power saving features. You could try to see when the CPU does it, but it's a worse method of output than looking at the monitor or speaker or floppy drive.
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14:39:21 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92783&oldid=92778 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-55) Remove nonexistent category and incorrect category (language isn't total)
14:40:20 <riv> hello :)
14:40:39 <oerjan> hi
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15:07:39 <Corbin> Palaiologos[m]: One challenge in Wolfram's framing is that it's already proven that K and I aren't derivable from S. I don't think B, C, or any other linear combinator is derivable, although I'm open to evidence. Wolfram's really askiing for a homomorphism from trees of S combinators to any TC language s.t. reductions of S terms in the original tree correspond to reductions in the TC language.
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15:09:20 <wib_jonas> Corbin: from a subset of the trees at least, yes.
15:09:30 <riv> can you make an infinite loop with S alone?
15:10:13 <wib_jonas> nah, never mind, I'm not sure that homomorphism thing is a good description. it doesn't bring you closer to what Turing-complete means
15:11:22 <Corbin> Sure; we don't usually talk about TC languages in terms of homomorphisms. I think we should, though, if for no other reason than that these homomorphisms are typically compilers.
15:14:00 <wib_jonas> Corbin: in that case I don't understand what kind of homomorphism you want
15:15:18 <Corbin> wib_jonas: It should preserve the reduction structure; if it's legal to reduce one tree of S to another tree, then similar reasoning should allow us to reduce one TC program to another. (Or else trees of S clearly aren't TC, because not all TC reductions show up inside it!)
15:18:17 <riv> Sxyz = (xz)(yz) so SSyS = SSyS I guess this is an infinite loop
15:18:42 <riv> for any y
15:18:50 <riv> can you make one that grows each time?
15:24:52 <tromp> no, SSyS = SS(yS) which is quite different
15:25:12 <riv> oh
15:25:18 <riv> thanks
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16:01:30 <oerjan> riv: istr that the decidable normalization article said reductions always halt at the top level, which would mean it's only the deeply nested subterms that can continue growing.
16:01:46 <riv> I see
16:02:50 <oerjan> mind you i only browsed a bit of it
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16:08:38 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92784&oldid=92782 * Laclale * (+43) /* Commands */
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16:21:09 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92785&oldid=92784 * Laclale * (+230) /* Sigil and Space */
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17:10:45 <int-e> oerjan: you remember correctly; Waldmann calls it top-stabilization
17:12:03 <int-e> b_jonas: it's okay to look at non-termination. but the less natural your criterion, the more you're opening up yourself to questions how much of the TC-ness you've derived can be attributed to S and how much to the criterion you're using
17:13:14 <int-e> I have the same issue with the rule 110 thing. Rule 110 + infinite repeating background is TC, but how much "control flow" or maybe "adjoined finite automaton" is encoded in that pattern?
17:14:54 <int-e> (AIUI the halting criterion is relatively sane in that case since it's emulating some cyclic tag thing.)
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17:39:27 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92786&oldid=92785 * Laclale * (+275)
17:41:52 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92787&oldid=92786 * Laclale * (-5)
17:43:24 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92788&oldid=92787 * Laclale * (-23)
17:45:15 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92789&oldid=92772 * PixelatedStarfish * (+114) /* MacroBeep */
17:48:56 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92790&oldid=92789 * PixelatedStarfish * (+119) /* MacroBeep */
17:49:13 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92791&oldid=92790 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* MacroBeep */
17:55:53 <esolangs> [[Category:Markup Languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92792&oldid=43275 * Laclale * (+23)
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18:02:00 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92793&oldid=92774 * PixelatedStarfish * (+272) /* External Links */
18:02:10 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92794&oldid=92793 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* =Repls for Online Use */
18:02:37 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92795&oldid=92794 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Repls for Online Use */
18:03:00 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92796&oldid=92795 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* External Links */
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18:04:39 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92798&oldid=92797 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* MacroBeep */
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18:50:33 <Palaiologos[m]> <Corbin> "Palaiologos: One challenge in..." <- i see!
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19:45:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WaifuShork * New user account
19:48:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92799&oldid=92716 * WaifuShork * (+261) /* Introductions */
19:50:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92800&oldid=92799 * WaifuShork * (+6) /* Introductions */
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19:57:06 <Bertrahm> I've been playing with this concept of a joke (?) or theoretical lang that could create a turing completeness proof for any language but I dont know if thats already around
19:57:54 <Corbin> Interesting. How would you specify the object languages?
19:58:44 <Bertrahm> i think the meaning of object languages got lost in translation for me. do you mean the language to generate for?
20:00:40 <Bertrahm> I've been thinking about it, if it should be more "realistic" and get fed a set of rules of the language and its keywords or if I should make it purely theoretical where it can generate a turing proof by just the name of the language
20:01:19 <Corbin> Yeah. Like, I understand how you would represent the typical programming language. But what about something like a Wang tileset?
20:02:39 <Bertrahm> what do you mean by Wang tileset? All I can think of is the wang tile thing by hao wang
20:05:20 <Corbin> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of.
20:06:58 <Bertrahm> how do you calculate with the wang tiles? Or am I just lacking in knowledge again '=D
20:07:26 <Palaiologos[m]> <Bertrahm> "I've been playing with this..." <- so something like what cyclic tag systems, brainfuck, minsky machines, etc...?
20:07:38 <Palaiologos[m]> these all are being used for turing completeness proofs on the way of translation or simulation.
20:07:53 <Corbin> https://grahamshawcross.com/2012/10/12/wang-tiles-and-turing-machines/ seems like a decent introduction to writing programs with Wang tiling.
20:08:03 <Bertrahm> thanks
20:08:10 <Palaiologos[m]> i don't think it gets any simpler than minsky machines or cyclic tag.
20:08:32 <Corbin> Palaiologos[m]: I think Bertrahm is thinking about the metatheory for performing Turing-completeness proofs; something like a formal-methods framework or a theorem-prover.
20:08:39 <Palaiologos[m]> maybe fractran too?
20:08:49 <Palaiologos[m]> Corbin: oh, i see.
20:09:49 <Bertrahm> Some of this is going over my head since english isnt my native language. What I mean is that it would, given a languages name (or a set of rules and instructions for the language) generate a turing-completeness proof program for that language
20:11:35 <Corbin> Aha. That makes some sense. (Your English is very good, by the way!)
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20:12:01 <Bertrahm> thanks :)
20:14:37 <Bertrahm> I think I'll write a wiki page for it laying out what Ideas I have and then share it. Im just struggling to think of a name xD
20:29:12 <salpynx> riv: Re. Loops in S: Section 3, Lemma 3.3, with proof: There are no reduction cycles in Σ [Σ = CL(S)] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304397579900045
20:31:52 <riv> woah!! that's cool!
20:32:06 <riv> so any loop must explode
20:32:16 <riv> why isn't this stuff more widely known!
20:39:50 <esolangs> [[Turing Completer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92801 * Bertrahm * (+1306) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Turing Completer''' is a theoretical language capable of generating a [[Turing Completeness]] Proof for any language. There are 2 variations for this language, one..."
20:41:17 <Bertrahm> wrote everything out that I had in mind. I think that there could be more to it but I can't think of anything...
20:45:01 <esolangs> [[Turing Completer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92802&oldid=92801 * Bertrahm * (+322)
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21:27:39 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92803 * Threesodas * (+4348) Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Languages]] '''mathSeq''' ('''math Seq'''uences) is an esoteric programming language created by User:Threesodas|Threesoda..."
21:27:56 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92804&oldid=92803 * Threesodas * (+3) oosp typo
21:30:44 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92805&oldid=92804 * Bertrahm * (+6) /* Syntax */
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22:28:50 <esolangs> [[ScrubCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92806&oldid=47256 * MeowflashDaProgrammer * (+70)
22:29:19 <esolangs> [[User:MeowflashDaProgrammer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92807&oldid=47247 * MeowflashDaProgrammer * (-1349) Replaced content with "Please delete this user. I don't want to use the Esolangs wiki anymore."
22:37:12 <esolangs> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92808&oldid=92753 * Threesodas * (+16)
22:50:13 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92809&oldid=92805 * Threesodas * (+70)
22:56:57 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92810&oldid=92788 * Laclale * (+55) /* Commands */
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23:09:08 <esolangs> [[January 25, 4092]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92811 * Threesodas * (+243) Created page with "[[Category:Joke_languages]] '''January 25, 5092''' is a joke esoteric language that can only be compiled on the specific date ''January 25, 4092''.<br> This is the only valid..."
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23:09:31 <esolangs> [[January 25, 4092]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92812&oldid=92811 * Threesodas * (+0) Change 5 to 4
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2022-02-03
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01:03:38 <esolangs> [[ScrubCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92813&oldid=92806 * Laclale * (+109)
01:04:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:ScrubCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92814&oldid=58845 * Laclale * (+168) /* Attention */ new section
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01:55:35 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92815&oldid=91656 * Jomy10 * (+81) Rust interpreter
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04:41:40 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92816&oldid=92781 * Citrons * (-9) minor language revision
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04:59:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92817&oldid=92754 * Citrons * (+14) add "grammar"
05:25:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[ScrubCode]]": Author request: content was: "Attention: Author wants to delete. The official Github repo is also deleted. NOTE: If you are reading this, [[User:MeowflashDaProgrammer|I]] would like this page to be deleted. ScrubCode is a programming language made by [[User:MeowflashDaProgrammer]], and inspir
05:27:36 <esolangs> [[SCRUBS4U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92818&oldid=47291 * Oerjan * (-32) Remove link to deleted language
05:29:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:MeowflashDaProgrammer]]": Author request: content was: "Please delete this user. I don't want to use the Esolangs wiki anymore.", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/MeowflashDaProgrammer|MeowflashDaProgrammer]]" ([[User talk:MeowflashDaProgrammer|talk]])
06:18:55 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92819&oldid=92816 * Citrons * (+190) add infobox
07:09:38 <esolangs> [[User:Laclale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92820&oldid=92605 * Laclale * (+24) /* I Love */
07:13:53 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92821&oldid=92810 * Laclale * (+13) /* Implementations */
07:23:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SailAH * New user account
07:24:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92822&oldid=92800 * SailAH * (+166)
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07:31:00 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92823&oldid=92821 * Laclale * (+94) /* Examples */
07:49:19 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92824&oldid=92819 * Citrons * (+293) turing complete
07:49:58 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92825&oldid=92824 * Citrons * (+0) fix link
07:55:22 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92826&oldid=92825 * Citrons * (+162) fix example program
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07:57:54 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92827&oldid=92826 * Citrons * (-4) it's still broken
08:04:04 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92828&oldid=92823 * Laclale * (+2) /* Examples */
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08:28:08 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92829&oldid=92828 * Laclale * (+272)
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08:33:01 <esolangs> [[User:Citrons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92830&oldid=92608 * Citrons * (+4431) citrons.xyz
08:37:06 <esolangs> [[User:Citrons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92831&oldid=92830 * Citrons * (+31) css
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08:53:59 <int-e> I finally picked up Superliminal, seems cute so far. Not hard, but novel.
08:55:05 <int-e> Though I found one spot where the solution (at least the one I ended up with) needs favorable RNG. That's a bit of a bummer.
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09:09:56 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92832&oldid=92829 * Laclale * (+195)
09:11:40 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92833&oldid=92832 * Laclale * (+74) /* Looping counter */
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10:06:22 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92834&oldid=92833 * Laclale * (-24)
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10:35:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92835&oldid=92817 * Bertrahm * (+23) /* T */
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10:40:06 <oerjan> argh
10:41:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92836&oldid=92835 * Oerjan * (+0) I suppose this was easy to misread
10:48:10 <Bertrahm> it was easy to misread, thanks oerjan
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11:51:28 <esolangs> [[Apers Assembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92837&oldid=92707 * Bertrahm * (+65) Forgot a line
11:53:47 <esolangs> [[Apers Assembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92838&oldid=92837 * Bertrahm * (+27) Wrong behaviour description...
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12:35:07 <esolangs> [[Apers Assembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92839&oldid=92838 * Bertrahm * (+92) /* Labels */
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13:12:34 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92840&oldid=92827 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
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13:44:11 <esolangs> [[Apers Assembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92841&oldid=92839 * Bertrahm * (+104) Added link to implementation
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15:24:49 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92842&oldid=92809 * Threesodas * (+211) Add cat program + fix an error + add 1.1 addition (var printing)
15:31:53 <esolangs> [[Plis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92843&oldid=92550 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Header levels, external link
15:34:31 <esolangs> [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92844&oldid=62187 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Categories
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17:03:37 <tromp> int-e / oerjan: i have put up a purported proof of the 3-variable theorem at https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/theorem
17:03:46 <tromp> please check for correctness!
17:07:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92845&oldid=92168 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5048)
17:13:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92846&oldid=92845 * PixelatedStarfish * (+117)
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17:28:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing Completer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92847 * Silver * (+578) Created page with "== computability of turing-completeness == it's interesting to note in the context of this language that whether or not a language is turing-complete is probably uncomputable..."
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17:44:27 <esolangs> [[Turing Completer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92848&oldid=92802 * Silver * (+308) computational class
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18:13:01 <b_jonas> fungot, is the key under the mat, and is it spelled "theter" or "tether"?
18:13:02 <fungot> b_jonas: this is it, like an apple or the other, to function as the better half. the two partners in a strong pale relationship will serve to balance and complement each other's, since there is no quadrant which naturally conceals two licorice scotty dogs are still here. you tell him. you thought he'd washed his hands of you.
18:13:20 <esolangs> [[User:Bertrahm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92849&oldid=92701 * Bertrahm * (+106) /* Other Esolangs */
18:42:39 <esolangs> [[Apers Assembly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92850&oldid=92841 * Bertrahm * (+0) Fixed Error in Helloworld example
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19:28:19 <esolangs> [[Geometryjunp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92851 * Threesodas * (+710) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''geometryjunp''' is an esoteric programming language named after the 2013 platformer game '''Geometry Dash'''. It is also a [[brainfuck]] substitution language..."
19:29:43 <esolangs> [[Geometryjunp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92852&oldid=92851 * Threesodas * (+62)
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19:31:59 <esolangs> [[Geometryjunp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92853&oldid=92852 * Threesodas * (+95) add switchers which i forgot to add for some reason
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19:44:19 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92854&oldid=92796 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Repls for Online Use */
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19:45:51 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92855&oldid=92798 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* MacroBeep */
19:46:30 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92856&oldid=92855 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* MacroBeep */
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22:25:09 <ais523> re: S and "infinite loops must explode" – this reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dupdog and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xigxag, both of which a) have that property and b) are considered almost certainly Turing-incomplete but this is hard to prove
22:25:29 <ais523> S appears to be another language in the same genre
22:25:51 <ais523> although a little more promising because its source code is tree-shaped rather than line-shaped, which gives more degrees of freedom
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23:41:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BowlingPizzaBall * New user account
23:43:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92857&oldid=92822 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+224)
23:43:58 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92858 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+21) Created page with "B++ and B* my beloved"
2022-02-04
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01:34:22 <b_jonas> ok, I think I was wrong here
01:35:55 <b_jonas> You have one of these evaluation rules like combinator calculus with S or Xigxag or those one-dimensional cellular automata, and you apply it repeatedly, and the loop grows the state unbounded in most cases.
01:36:08 <b_jonas> You want to know whether the repeated transformation is Turing-complete.
01:36:52 <b_jonas> The problem is indeed what kind of checks you allow to get the information out from the state, call it halting condition if you wish,
01:37:32 <b_jonas> because it's either too easy to inject Turing-completeness into even a trivial transformation, or restrict the checks too much, and I don't know what the right middle ground is
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01:39:32 <b_jonas> Consider for example a trivial transformation that just appends a zero at the end of the string in each step. For the halting condition, you read the program at the beginning of the state and then run it for as many steps as there are zeroes. This is a linear time language, surely linear time is not powerful enough to be Turing-complete, right? But you do get turing-completeness if you apply it to each
01:39:38 <b_jonas> state in this silly way.
01:51:48 <Corbin> tromp: Interesting lemma. It seems like B and C provide some sort of essential service; just like how K deletes and how S and W can duplicate, B and C provide composition, and so does Q.
01:53:01 <Corbin> What makes S so impressive, then, is that S also provides composition, allowing SK to be complete.
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04:02:44 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92859&oldid=92834 * Laclale * (+828) /* Commands */
04:04:23 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92860&oldid=92859 * Laclale * (-96) /* Commands */
04:04:52 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92861&oldid=92860 * Laclale * (-8) /* Examples */
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05:04:40 <u0_a549> so i just discovered about esolangs today, and i
05:04:53 <u0_a549> want to build my own
05:04:56 <u0_a549> esolangs
05:05:05 <u0_a549> could anybody help me
05:06:14 <Corbin> Have you made a programming language before?
05:06:21 <u0_a549> no
05:06:31 <u0_a549> which is why i am asking for help
05:07:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AJJLyman * New user account
05:08:06 <Corbin> What kinds of ideas do you want to express with your language?
05:09:02 <u0_a549> simplicity and low level programming
05:10:22 <Corbin> How do you feel about assembly or machine-level instructions?
05:10:28 <u0_a549> my goal was to create a low level language for the creation of an exokernel of my own and and an os with it
05:11:08 <u0_a549> assembly is scary for me
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05:12:04 <u0_a549> i know it is too ambitious
05:12:04 <Corbin> Maybe a design goal could be to find a syntax that doesn't scare you, but that still can express unsafe machine instructions.
05:12:23 <u0_a549> hmm, ok
05:13:01 <Corbin> It's not ambitious to want to customize one's own computer. The ambition is only in wanting other people to run certain software.
05:13:12 <u0_a549> and i was wondering are there better ways for memory managagement than the way c and rust handles it
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05:16:11 <u0_a549> are there any new and experimental methods that have been discovered by esolangers like you in memory management
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05:20:05 <Corbin> The easy way is to just not have memory.
05:46:37 <int-e> ah, finally, a hot shower in the morning
05:54:24 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92862&oldid=92861 * Laclale * (+103) /* Commands */
05:58:39 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92863&oldid=92862 * Laclale * (+6) /* XKCD fish */
06:20:25 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92864&oldid=92863 * Laclale * (+330) /* Commands */
06:45:58 <zzo38> I should think better way of making a web browser that all protocols and file formats are extensions; only the data: and file: schemes, and some uses of the about: scheme, are built-in. The model of HTTP is built-in, but the protocol isn't. All extensions can be written in C, and can be dynamic linking.
06:52:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92865&oldid=92846 * Laclale * (+1)
07:07:59 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92866&oldid=92864 * Laclale * (+73) /* Commands */
07:11:25 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92867&oldid=92866 * Laclale * (+150) /* Syntax */
08:02:07 <citrons> esolang
08:03:30 <zzo38> Can you be more specific?
08:04:02 <citrons> let me think
08:04:24 <citrons> FALSE
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08:29:09 <tromp> Corbin: indeed.and alpha = \x\y\z.x z (y (\_.z) provides all of deletion, duplication, and composition.
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08:31:03 <tromp> and is provably minimal
08:32:09 <tromp> btwm turns out my theorem was alrd proven in 1987 by Remi Legrand: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-symbolic-logic/article/abs/basis-result-in-combinatory-logic/306DF60857C5A842C9793FBBAA4A2970
08:39:53 <oerjan> not surprising
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10:47:21 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92868&oldid=92867 * Laclale * (-57) /* XKCD fish */
10:54:35 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92869&oldid=92868 * Laclale * (-10) /* XKCD fish */
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10:57:18 <riv> https://www.homestuck.com/story/294 huh i dont remember when he got arms
10:57:45 <riv> btw I took my vechicle to the quantum mechanic, about the issue where the GPS and speedometer don't both work at the same time. but they were uncertain if they could fix it
11:00:45 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92870&oldid=92869 * Laclale * (+32) /* XKCD fish */
11:13:48 <riv> https://www.homestuck.com/story/321 ah this captchalogue is based on hashing
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13:00:35 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92871&oldid=92747 * Laclale * (+25) /* Game */
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13:08:15 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92872&oldid=92870 * Laclale * (+22) /* Implementations */
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14:57:35 <riv> https://rtpg.co/2022/01/10/adversarial-wordle-limiting-conjecture.html
15:21:21 <riv> I have a question about design of dice
15:21:31 <riv> for equal probability we use platonic solids(?)
15:21:37 <riv> but that is related to having a flat table
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15:21:52 <riv> what if we can build an arbitrary shape of table, does it allow new dice?
15:32:05 <riv> https://trick-dice.com/ clever, gallium loadded dice. it's fair, you heat it up and let it cool, and now it's biased
15:32:44 <fizzie> Even for a flat table, there's the (boring) "long, thin rod with N flat sides" shape, which allows any N >= 2.
15:33:45 <fizzie> Also, I think there's more fair dice than just the platonic solids. Like the disdyakis triacontahedron from https://www.tor.com/2016/04/29/the-dice-lab-creates-a-one-hundred-and-twenty-sided-die/
15:33:46 <riv> ah that is a nice idea :)
15:35:17 <riv> oh Henry Segerman is involved
15:35:20 <riv> I like his youtube channel
15:35:30 <fizzie> « “It’s not one of the most beautiful polyhedra,” he told me. “It’s just a little lumpy. It doesn’t have personality.” » Wow, a polyhedral snob.
15:36:22 <riv> not to be confused with snub
15:38:37 <riv> it is a fun combinatorial problem to design which number goes on which side
15:39:57 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid so do all of thes woerk
15:40:32 <riv> I suppose not, some have multiple different faces
15:41:50 <riv> although they could be 'reroll' sides..
15:42:19 <riv> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Isohedron.html
15:42:24 <riv> I think this is all fair dice
15:42:45 <riv> The isohedra make fair dice, and there are 30 of them
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15:45:24 <fizzie> Well, 30 kinds. Some like https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dipyramid.html are apparently a family.
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17:50:16 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92873 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+1949) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''syncin''' is a joke esoteric programming language. Every single instruction must be written in reverse order. It has support for multiple lines.<br> == Instr..."
17:51:33 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92874&oldid=92873 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+54) Forgot to add creator (me)
17:55:34 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92875&oldid=92489 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+155)
17:57:24 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92876&oldid=92005 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+74)
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18:05:37 <riv> but my question was if you could consider something like a corrigated surface
18:05:41 <riv> would that enable new types of dice
18:07:15 <int-e> I'd start by worrying about adding more dependencies on how the die is cast, then discard the question :P
18:07:20 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92877&oldid=92490 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+75)
18:07:55 <riv> 3d printing
18:08:35 <int-e> I mean... how you cast a die does affect the odds already, but with a non-flat surface it's not even horizontally translation invariant anymore.
18:17:15 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92878&oldid=92874 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+46) adding other necessary stuff
18:27:33 <riv> the idea is it will always fall into specific grooves
18:31:25 <int-e> Anyway, the reason dice are fair (if you cast them properly... probably involving a cup on a plate and a round of thorough shakes by everybody involved) comes down to symmetry. If you break that symmetry the problem becomes much harder... you need to worry about materials (beyond the point that it's uniform), and probably velocities and a ton of other things.
18:31:57 <int-e> And that's before we even get to the extra oddities from the non-planar surface.
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18:39:04 <int-e> Playing Superliminal made me realize how brilliant Portal was... it didn't just have a story, it had adversity. Superliminal lacks that, and it makes it kind of bland. The puzzles are still cute though (not hard, though actually I was stumped for a while in two of them, so maybe not totally easy either).
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18:48:33 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92879&oldid=92858 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+23)
18:48:48 <zzo38> What is the classification of fair dice? Although the ten sided dice is not Platonic solid, I had been told (on the IRC, I think) that it is a fair dice.
18:58:28 <riv> im not worried about the probability too much
18:58:36 <riv> I think the probability will be extrremely close to even
18:59:04 <riv> https://www.exploratorium.edu/sites/default/files/snacks/SquareWheels_DSC_6112_P960.jpg
18:59:08 <riv> i was thinking along these lines
19:00:12 <zzo38> Maybe it is close, but I would want to know what is the classification of fair dice mathematically
19:15:16 <riv> in my opinion a dice is fair if it has equal probability for every symbol that can be rolled by it
19:15:47 <riv> I guess that is not really mathematica
19:15:48 <riv> l
19:16:00 <riv> its more just "roll it a lot of times and count, and if the counts are very close it is fair"
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19:35:21 <ais523> zzo38: in practice, most fair dice are the dual of an Archimedean solid (because an Archimidean solid is symmetrical in the sense that you can rotate/reflect any vertex onto any other, its dual is symmetrical in the sense that you can rotate/reflect any face onto any other, meaning that it must necessarily be fair as a dice)
19:35:51 <ais523> the usual d10 is the dual of a pentagonal antiprism (an Archimidean solid), thus is symmetrical with respect to its 10 sides and thus equally likely to land on any of htem
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19:37:12 <ais523> oh, apparently prisms and antiprisms (and Platonic solids) aren't "officially" Archimidean, but they have the same property (of all vertexes being identical)
19:37:26 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Prisms and antiprisms, whose symmetry groups are the dihedral groups, are generally not considered to be Archimedean solids, even though their faces are regular polygons and their symmetry groups act transitively on their vertices.
19:37:31 <ais523> what a weird special case
19:39:11 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92880&oldid=92878 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+32)
19:42:10 <ais523> one problem with using duals of Archimidean solids for dice is that they tend to have the same number of faces as each other
19:42:42 <ais523> 12, 24, 48, 30, 60, or 120
19:44:39 <ais523> so not many of them are actually useful (the main purpose is for if you want a d24 or d30)
19:47:13 <ais523> ah, I found the name for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid (there's a list of the ones that don't belong to infinite families there – the infinite families are bipyramids and trapezohedra, and the d10 is a pentagonal trapezohedron)
19:47:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92881&oldid=92836 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[CSP Spec]]
19:47:31 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92882&oldid=92393 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[CSP Spec]]
19:48:01 <riv> yes
19:48:15 <esolangs> [[CSP Spec]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92883 * Hakerh400 * (+6934) +[[CSP Spec]]
19:48:15 <riv> it is a little ugly but you can e.g. make a 9 sided dice from a 10 sided dice
19:48:22 <riv> just having one face be a re-reroll indicator
19:48:54 <riv> and you can combine that with having each number appear twice, or 3x
19:49:22 <riv> when you roll a dice it lands with the bottom face flat
19:49:31 <riv> but there must be a top face opposite this, for you to read the value off
19:49:49 <riv> are any shapes excluded as dice, because they actually have a vertex opposite each face?
19:52:01 <int-e> riv: D4 are a thing though
19:53:49 <ais523> d4 are normally tetrahedra, as opposed to octahedra with duplicated numbers
19:54:33 <ais523> the octahedron is much easier to roll fairly, though, tetrahedra don't roll very well (the main advantage of a tetrahedron is that it looks so different from an octahedron that you're unlikely to pick the wrong die by mistake)
19:54:37 <int-e> the point was that they have labeled corners, sort of.
19:55:00 <ais523> in practice we normally rolled d4s via bouncing them off a table, with a lot of spin (the d4s we had available tended to bounce quite well on tables)
19:55:25 <ais523> but yes, the vertices are labeled via placing the same label on the corner of each face incident to the vertex
19:55:29 <int-e> There are two obvious ways to make a D10, one of which would have an edge on top when you roll it.
19:55:55 <int-e> (well, once it lands)
19:56:09 <ais523> this is a good reason for using a trapezohedron rather than a bipyramid
19:56:47 <ais523> (the other good reason is that they look more distinct from octahedra – a pentagonal bipyramid looks quite similar to an octahedron, which is a tetragonal bipyramid)
20:01:34 <riv> you can have nested dice
20:01:41 <riv> glass outer dice with another thing inside it
20:02:04 <riv> hm how does the tetrahedral dice work?
20:02:18 <riv> perhaps you need a table with pointed depressions in it
20:02:30 <riv> and then it should always fall into one of these grooves and show a face upwards
20:13:54 <int-e> typically like this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sided_die
20:14:50 <int-e> (oh, right, they label the bottom face, not the corners. that's less cramped...)
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20:20:52 <fizzie> A d4, of course, is the one you step on.
20:24:50 <FireFly> ah yes, RPG caltrops
20:30:51 <riv> ouch!
20:36:10 <b_jonas> I don't have much comment about the dice, except that apart from the regular solids and Catalan solids and dual prisms and dual antiprisms, there's one more infinite class of fair dice. these are the ones that have just two vertexes with a loop of two-edged faces around them. you can't make them from flat faces, but you can curve the faces of the dice and still have it be symmetric, so that can work.
20:49:01 <shachaf> `? member
20:49:05 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
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20:56:39 <riv> but there may also be random shapes which happen to be fair?
20:57:37 <b_jonas> riv: not really. the problem is that the probabilities depend on how you throw the dice, like how fast.
20:58:05 <riv> hmmm
20:58:17 <riv> so you could make a dice which has different probabilities depending on the throw speed
20:58:21 <riv> that is a very interesting concept
20:58:25 <b_jonas> however, you can have modified variants of the dice mentioned that have the same number of faces but with fewer symmetries
21:02:01 <b_jonas> in particular you could have a d10 in kind of the normal topology of a dual 5-antiprism, but modify it so that it has no symmetry plane because it looks kind of like a bicycle tire that rolls differently forwards and backwards
21:03:03 <b_jonas> but since it still has enough symmetries for face-transitivity of the symmetries, so it's a fair dice
21:04:06 <b_jonas> riv: you can imagine an ordinary coin. if you throw it hard it's much less likely to land on an edge than if you drop it gently.
21:04:34 <b_jonas> that's why you can't just make a 3-prism to get a d5 that's a fair dice
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21:05:54 <riv> I see!
21:06:43 <ais523> b_jonas: you can construct many other sorts of fair dice by allowing for them to have some faces that aren't stable and thus will never be landed on
21:08:10 <b_jonas> ais523: does that actually allow any fair dice that's really different from the ones listed above, if you count the degenerate cases of d1 and d2 among them?
21:08:12 <ais523> imagine a pyramid with a hemisphere glued to the unique face, such that the hemisphere's circular face is the incircle of the unique face
21:09:04 <ais523> the pyramid won't balance on the hemisphere and (if sufficiently tall) won't balance on the edge of the unique face, so it'll tip over to one of the non-unique faces, and those are all equally likely
21:09:06 <b_jonas> ais523: right, that's kind of like the one with two nodes, but with less symmetries. but I guess I didn't specified well what you count the same
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21:10:02 <ais523> when all the faces are curved, it's harder to prove that the dice will in fact land on a face
21:10:07 <ais523> rather than balanced between two faces somehow
21:11:04 <b_jonas> it could be for some dice, yes
21:13:21 <b_jonas> anyway, you can get that prism thing with flat faces too, if you just make it a dual prism and put the center of gravity to one of the ends so it's only stable on half its faces
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21:36:09 <b_jonas> `? time cube
21:36:11 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
21:36:19 <b_jonas> `? wisest human on earth
21:36:21 <HackEso> wisest human on earth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:36:23 <b_jonas> `? gene ray
21:36:25 <HackEso> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
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02:00:25 <razetime[m]1> `? gene kelly
02:00:27 <HackEso> gene kelly? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:00:41 <razetime[m]1> funny
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02:35:18 <esolangs> [[AssemblerFuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92884&oldid=92594 * Esolang1 * (+0) Fixed typos: Categories
02:37:54 <esolangs> [[AssemblerFuck++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92885&oldid=92884 * Esolang1 * (+103) Added details: I/O
02:41:02 <esolangs> [[Advance The Wheel!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92886&oldid=92726 * Ais523 * (-119) /* Self-interpreter */ remove an outdated part of a sentence (it described an older version of the self-interpreter, not the current version)
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07:57:12 <riv> ok
07:57:33 <riv> label the faces of a d6 1 1 1 2 2 continuation
07:57:45 <riv> if you get continuation, reroll but add 6 to the final result
07:57:49 <riv> this lets you roll any natural number
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11:24:11 <esolangs> [[Plutonium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92887&oldid=81680 * Shahryar * (+28)
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13:14:19 <int-e> tromp: I kind of believe your 3 variable theorem (but I am struggling with the absence of 2-2-forms as a criterion; the negation is rather messy), but not the proof. In particular, a 2-2-form might appear in the term without manifesting in the reduct N[x:=M], if, somehow, a 2-bind appears without having one previously (Consider \y z. (\x. M) N (y z)) -> \y z. M[x := N] (y z)). Which I think...
13:14:25 <int-e> ...can't happen, but it needs a proof. There may be more such cases that I'm missing; ignoring the context is a bit dubious. (It's easier for the absence of 3-forms because in that case the idea that the number of free variables can only be decreased by reduction is well-established intuition for me.)
14:11:27 <tromp> int-e: thx for the review. i'll try to make it more rigorous
14:16:41 <b_jonas> fungot, are you a signla generator?
14:16:41 <fungot> b_jonas: and in time, though prone to do with it or not.
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14:44:56 <esolangs> [[Pair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92888 * Hakerh400 * (+6175) +[[Pair]]
14:45:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92889&oldid=92881 * Hakerh400 * (+11) +[[Pair]]
14:45:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92890&oldid=92882 * Hakerh400 * (+11) +[[Pair]]
14:47:01 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92891&oldid=92872 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) Categories
14:48:40 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92892&oldid=92276 * Kemuri * (+30) /* interpreter */
14:49:11 <esolangs> [[Tile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92893&oldid=92616 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Interpreter */ Add category
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14:49:44 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92894&oldid=92892 * Kemuri * (+14)
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14:54:31 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92895&oldid=92888 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Syntactic sugar */
14:56:32 <esolangs> [[Tile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92896&oldid=92893 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) Use wikilink
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15:05:12 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92897&oldid=92891 * Laclale * (-23) /* [[Category:Languages]] */ was added by infobox
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15:25:09 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92898&oldid=92895 * Hakerh400 * (+394) Add quine program
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21:14:40 <fowl> hello friends
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21:14:53 <esolangs> [[Cubestate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92899&oldid=66251 * Raumaankidwai * (-7)
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22:53:40 <zzo38> Does Raspberry Pi use 64-bit timestamps or 32-bit timestamps? (Earlier today I tried to compile Free Hero Mesh on Raspberry Pi and got a warning about the shift count is out of range, and I don't know if that is what the problem is.)
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02:52:16 <esolangs> [[Ahead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92900&oldid=58273 * Aspwil * (-40) removed multidimensional tag to keep consistent with other langs on the wiki, since it is only 2 dimnsiional
02:56:07 <esolangs> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92901&oldid=81646 * Aspwil * (-40) removed multidimensional super-category as it is already in the 2 dimensional subcategory
02:59:25 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92902&oldid=92876 * Oerjan * (-137) /* General languages */ orst, rm language without article
03:04:07 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92903&oldid=88050 * Aspwil * (-2) sorted into sub category Two-dimensional languages
03:05:59 <esolangs> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92904&oldid=79292 * Aspwil * (-3) sorted into sub category Two-dimensional languages
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03:09:02 <esolangs> [[Top-based turning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92905&oldid=76140 * Aspwil * (-41) removed multidimensional super-category as it is already in the 2 dimensional subcategory
03:13:08 <esolangs> [[Nightmare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92906&oldid=92511 * Aspwil * (+41)
03:28:34 <esolangs> [[Nightmare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92907&oldid=92906 * Otesunki * (+27)
03:44:26 <oerjan> <riv> this lets you roll any natural number <-- i don't see how to get 3 from what you described hth
03:52:51 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92908&oldid=92902 * Oerjan * (-73) Now again on the whole page
03:57:09 <zzo38> That is what I thought, too. Also, what probability distribution do you intend?
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04:32:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Double Helix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92909 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) Created page with "impressive! [[User:Pixelated Starfish]]"
04:32:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Double Helix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92910&oldid=92909 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
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06:58:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
06:59:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92911&oldid=92857 * * (+77)
07:06:36 <esolangs> [[User:Otesunki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92912&oldid=92160 * Otesunki * (+47)
07:08:14 <esolangs> [[User:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92913 * * (+32) Created page with "<!-- my time hasn't yet come -->"
07:11:53 <oerjan> wat
07:13:04 <int-e> `unidecode :͏
07:13:06 <HackEso> ​[U+003A COLON] [U+034F COMBINING GRAPHEME JOINER]
07:13:12 <int-e> meh
07:13:57 <oerjan> ic
07:14:02 <int-e> (that U+034F is the user name, apparently)
07:14:34 -!- Everything has left.
07:14:39 <int-e> (including the colon is just a way to actually select it)
07:14:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled): Unacceptable username
07:15:04 <oerjan> got to put the foot down on that one.
07:15:15 <int-e> yeah
07:16:37 <int-e> I'm inclined to say that user names should be ASCII only but that's a pretty western attitude.
07:17:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:]]": No. Just no.
07:17:53 <int-e> hmm, maybe undo the introduction too?
07:18:50 <int-e> (Other than the user name it was totally generic anyway.)
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07:20:00 <int-e> fungot: will width 2^26 be enough?
07:20:00 <fungot> int-e: john, it appears we have reached an impasse
07:20:08 <int-e> ...timing
07:20:16 <int-e> ^style
07:20:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
07:21:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92914&oldid=92911 * Oerjan * (+166) Putting foot down
07:22:21 <int-e> ^style youtube
07:22:22 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
07:22:28 <int-e> fungot: say something terrible and incoherent
07:22:29 <fungot> int-e: blah blah blah har har har har!
07:22:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Oerjan * changed block settings for [[User:]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): Unacceptable username
07:25:09 <oerjan> fungot: you seem very accomodating today
07:25:09 <fungot> oerjan: 5 oh no's...
07:25:50 <oerjan> *+m+m
07:25:53 <oerjan> argh
07:25:55 <oerjan> -+m
07:27:20 <int-e> fungot: very funny video, 0/5 because the captions should use comic sans
07:27:20 <fungot> int-e: test flights. i just got mind raped i was replying to him, look at this point it really has the same company which didnt have any, do a flyby at an airshow, with a better hillary impersonator
07:28:16 <int-e> heh, I like the ending of that one
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07:51:50 <esolangs> [[Entropy complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92915&oldid=90269 * Oshaboy * (+11) Clarification and fixed a god tier spelling mistake.
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08:59:31 <riv> haha
08:59:34 <riv> i made a mistake, we have to add 2
09:00:14 <riv> the probability is 3/6 for 1, 2/6 for 2, 1/6*3/6 for 3, 1/6*2/6 for 4, 1/6^2*... for
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09:23:45 <oerjan> riv: this gives prettier probabilities with a d4 or d8, then you can get P(X=n) = 2^(-n)
09:24:27 <oerjan> technically you can do that with a d6 too but only by treating it as a d2
09:25:38 <oerjan> or well, there _should_ be some way of getting 6^(-n)
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09:26:07 <oerjan> no wait that's the wrong sum
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09:26:19 <int-e> 5*6^(-n) is easy
09:27:12 <oerjan> 1/(1-1/6) = 6/5 hm right
09:27:14 <int-e> (using basically the same scheme: 1 1 1 1 1 continuation, with continuations adding 1)
09:27:59 <oerjan> so i guess the question is how to do this while wasting minimal entropy, or something
09:28:24 <int-e> 5^n/6^(n+1) is also easy, by switching to a single 1 and 5 continuations.
09:28:35 <int-e> yeah
09:30:15 <int-e> People have researched simulating arbitrary finite distribution with fair coin flips... except it's usually in a context of data compression and people are happy with approximations (as provided by range coders or arithmetic coders).
09:31:23 <int-e> There's also the fascinating problem of simulating a fair coin if you only have an unfair one with unknown probabilities. (But with the property that consecutive flips are independent with the same probabilities)
09:33:09 <oerjan> roll twice until different, then take the last one is the obvious method, but perhaps you mean saving entropy there too
09:35:29 <int-e> yeah how to conserve entropy is the problem.
09:36:31 <int-e> Or minimizing the expected number of flips. And it's hard. The basic idea is that when you have strings with equal number of heads, you can pair them up and derive an outcome from that. But... if, say, you assign the same outcome to 011 and 010, then you can stop early.
09:39:46 <oerjan> hm might the optimal scheme depend on the probability
09:41:08 * oerjan believes that it may be hard
09:43:35 <oerjan> if you're using the unfair coin to simulate a sequence of perfect coin flips you would want to adapt as you get better estimate of what the base probability is
09:45:27 <int-e> "hm might the optimal scheme depend on the probability" -- it does!
09:49:19 <oerjan> fiendish
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09:54:36 <int-e> sigh I wish I could remember the reference for that
09:59:02 <int-e> Oh. It's the 1984 paper by Stout and Warren. [3] here: https://www.xarg.org/2018/01/make-a-fair-coin-from-a-biased-coin/
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10:07:55 <riv> I like taht!
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12:32:40 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92916&oldid=92898 * Hakerh400 * (+34) /* Implementation */
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14:47:51 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92917&oldid=92916 * Hakerh400 * (+3) /* Syntactic sugar */ Fix order
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15:12:43 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiegelman%27s_Monster
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16:04:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92918&oldid=92914 * Laclale * (+140)
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17:12:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elyxin1 * New user account
17:16:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92919&oldid=92918 * Elyxin1 * (+70) /* Introductions */
17:27:09 <esolangs> [[Haltingfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92920&oldid=86808 * Silver * (+1123) fixed incorrect computational class, see cs.stackexchange.com/questions/148921/is-haltingfuck-computable
17:27:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Haltingfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92921&oldid=87011 * Silver * (-565) /* is this really computable? */ removed, since it's been addressed
17:30:32 <esolangs> [[Unhaltingfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92922&oldid=86804 * Silver * (+103) haltingfuck description
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18:01:19 <esolangs> [[Bf++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92923 * Elyxin1 * (+1504) Created page with "'''BF++''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] invented in 2022 February. The creator did not feel like [[Brainfuck]] had enough features. ==Syntax and functions== The la..."
18:03:19 <esolangs> [[Bf++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92924&oldid=92923 * Elyxin1 * (+0)
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18:58:42 <esolangs> [[SimPPLe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92925&oldid=55608 * NR * (+25) /* Implementations */
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20:46:07 <esolangs> [[Bf++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92926&oldid=92924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) Add categories
20:46:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Bf++]] to [[BF++]]: Fix capitalisation of name
20:47:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92929&oldid=92889 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* B */ add
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21:32:20 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92930&oldid=92917 * Hakerh400 * (+675)
21:44:25 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92931&oldid=92875 * Hakerh400 * (+1002) +[[Pair]]
21:47:20 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92932&oldid=88589 * TheJonyMyster * (-66) This has pretty much always been intended behavior honestly.
21:51:30 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92933&oldid=92931 * Hakerh400 * (+144) /* Pair */
21:54:31 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92934&oldid=92933 * Hakerh400 * (+17) /* Pair */
21:55:22 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92935&oldid=92934 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Pair */
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21:57:50 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92936&oldid=92935 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Pair */ Separate the main function
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22:09:50 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92937&oldid=92930 * Hakerh400 * (+42)
22:10:50 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92938&oldid=92936 * Hakerh400 * (+8) /* Pair */
22:11:54 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92939&oldid=92938 * Hakerh400 * (-8) /* Pair */
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22:29:20 <esolangs> [[Laddermaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92940&oldid=92339 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+174) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the laddermaker programming language on GitHub.
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22:47:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mlliarm * New user account
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22:53:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92941&oldid=92919 * Mlliarm * (+174) intro
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22:57:38 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92942&oldid=87472 * Mlliarm * (+132) /* External resources */
23:13:53 <b_jonas> fungot, what breed of dog does the pope have?
23:13:53 <fungot> b_jonas: what's the song's name?! hahaha! fail.
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2022-02-07
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00:34:56 <esolangs> [[AssemblerFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92943&oldid=46784 * Esolang1 * (+21) Added language: AssemblerFuck++
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00:43:07 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92944&oldid=92937 * Hakerh400 * (+1992) Add another example
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08:53:53 <esolangs> [[User:LuisCR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92945 * LuisCR * (+2119) Created page with "Hello everyone! I'm a mathematician interested in alternative programming. I've written (sometimes for fun, and sometimes for simulation purposes) some programs in esoteric la..."
08:54:16 <esolangs> [[User:LuisCR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92946&oldid=92945 * LuisCR * (+0) /* Some interpreters */
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09:20:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92947&oldid=54070 * LuisCR * (+549)
09:31:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Folgga * New user account
09:58:39 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92948&oldid=92018 * WriteOnly * (+295)
10:00:27 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92949&oldid=92948 * WriteOnly * (-43)
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12:55:09 <esolangs> [[User:CappyIsCrappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92950&oldid=92314 * CappyIsCrappy * (-3)
12:55:17 <esolangs> [[User:CappyIsCrappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92951&oldid=92950 * CappyIsCrappy * (-2)
12:59:47 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92952&oldid=92880 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+26) since this can be programmed in, this really isn't a joke lang
13:02:43 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92953&oldid=92908 * BowlingPizzaBall * (-74)
13:12:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92954&oldid=92929 * Laclale * (+13) /* S */
13:16:48 <riv> fungot: SUS
13:16:49 <fungot> riv: i loved the cash for gold was terrribllee. i'm glad i got linked here from a tv channel completely devoted to 3d movies, tv shows, and the whole rebirth in water sequence is done right.
13:17:04 <riv> fungot: roll the dice
13:17:04 <fungot> riv: your kid he is very cool...but i really hope it doesn't matter is 3d realms
13:31:01 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92955&oldid=92944 * Hakerh400 * (+1592) Add monads and Fibonacci example
13:35:02 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92956&oldid=92955 * Hakerh400 * (+48)
13:35:42 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92957&oldid=92956 * Hakerh400 * (-4)
13:38:41 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92958&oldid=92957 * Hakerh400 * (-138)
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15:28:17 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92959&oldid=92593 * Heptor * (+8) /* Truth machine */ fix code
15:28:57 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92960&oldid=92897 * Laclale * (+779) /* Syntax */
15:29:49 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92961&oldid=92959 * Heptor * (+0) /* Truth machine */ fix code again
15:31:41 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92962&oldid=92960 * Laclale * (+17)
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15:44:57 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92963&oldid=92961 * Heptor * (+342) /* Truth machine */ just fucking rewrite it idfc
15:46:38 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92964&oldid=92963 * Heptor * (+96) /* Overview */
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15:47:29 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92965&oldid=92964 * Heptor * (+19) /* Overview */
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15:50:18 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92966&oldid=92965 * Heptor * (+99) /* Math */
15:50:35 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92967&oldid=92966 * Heptor * (+4) /* Math */
15:51:15 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92968&oldid=92967 * Heptor * (-11) /* Math */
15:53:07 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92969&oldid=92968 * Heptor * (+183) /* Math */
15:55:41 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92970&oldid=92969 * Heptor * (+104) /* Inbuilt Commands */
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15:56:54 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92971&oldid=92970 * Heptor * (+40) /* Overview */
15:57:24 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92972&oldid=92971 * Heptor * (+11) /* Overview */
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15:58:12 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92973&oldid=92972 * Heptor * (+76) /* Overview */
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15:58:55 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92974&oldid=92973 * Heptor * (-76) /* Overview */
16:00:31 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92975&oldid=92974 * Heptor * (+78) /* Other Notes */
16:01:36 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92976&oldid=92975 * Heptor * (+86) /* Overview */
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16:52:20 <int-e> PS on Superliminal: The luck based solution I had was not the intended one, the intended one is reliable.
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18:18:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Lananang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92977&oldid=92610 * Heptor * (+130)
18:27:49 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92978&oldid=92976 * Heptor * (+4) /* Math */
18:29:24 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92979&oldid=92978 * Heptor * (+131) /* Overview */
18:30:58 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92980&oldid=92979 * Heptor * (+86) /* Other Notes */
18:31:32 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92981&oldid=92980 * Heptor * (+3) /* Other Notes */
18:32:25 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92982&oldid=92981 * Heptor * (-6) /* Math */
18:34:53 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92983&oldid=92982 * Heptor * (+28) /* Other Notes */
18:35:04 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92984&oldid=92983 * Heptor * (+2) /* Other Notes */
18:37:20 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92985&oldid=92984 * Heptor * (+7) /* Overview */
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20:34:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Brainpusher * New user account
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21:21:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92986&oldid=92941 * Brainpusher * (+248)
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21:33:25 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92987&oldid=90815 * Brainpusher * (+150)
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21:39:23 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92988&oldid=92987 * Brainpusher * (+2)
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22:02:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92989&oldid=92988 * Brainpusher * (+3)
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22:13:00 <b_jonas> fungot, are you a justice of peace?
22:13:00 <fungot> b_jonas: you missed nannerpus? wtf
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23:09:58 <fizzie> fungot: Are you just an Internet commentator?
23:09:59 <fungot> fizzie: maybe he works at an air show, forgettig sarah marshal) is with serious problems since 2005 and the last that i like
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2022-02-08
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01:49:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Deltayelta * New user account
02:17:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92990&oldid=92986 * Deltayelta * (+226)
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03:11:09 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92991&oldid=92958 * Hakerh400 * (+25) Add syntax for unit
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04:01:19 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92992&oldid=92991 * Hakerh400 * (+1184) Add new examples
04:03:17 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92993&oldid=92992 * Hakerh400 * (-11)
04:41:00 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92994&oldid=92993 * Hakerh400 * (+259) Add prime numbers example
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05:00:47 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92995&oldid=92994 * Hakerh400 * (+103) Add disan count example
05:07:48 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92996&oldid=92995 * Hakerh400 * (+191) Digital root calculator
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06:40:27 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92997&oldid=92962 * Laclale * (+16) /* Calculatives */
06:42:05 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92998&oldid=92997 * Laclale * (+52) /* Calculatives */
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11:04:45 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92999&oldid=92942 * Oerjan * (-160) /* External resources */ Use wayback template
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12:49:56 <wib_jonas> guys, I keep trying to use (svn log -N 1) to list only the latest one log entry. where the heck does the -N come from in my head? the correct commands are (svn log -l 1), (hg log -l 1) and (git log -n 1)
12:51:51 <riv> What dice would you be able to roll in 4D?
12:52:03 <riv> zzo38 btw I think I have a good answer to your question
12:52:17 <riv> a fair dice in reality is: if you roll it (at different speeds) it gives the same statistics for every side
12:52:35 <riv> a fair dice in math could be: there is some kind of transitive symmetry across the sides
12:52:49 <riv> if a dice is fair in the math it will certainly be fair in statistics
12:53:02 <riv> now there is something to consider:
12:53:30 <riv> a 3 sided prism dice, has 2 extra sides on the ends - if it's very long it will prefer the 3 sides. if it's very short its like a coin and prefers the 2 ends
12:53:40 <riv> so you might think there is a middle spot where it is a fair dice
12:53:51 <riv> but as someone pointed out, that is not the case - it depends on the speed you roll it at
12:54:03 <riv> so we actually reject 5 sided dice as not being face. since the sides are not all the same
12:54:30 <riv> https://www.mathartfun.com/d6.html skew dice are allowed
12:58:07 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93000&oldid=92996 * Hakerh400 * (+2862) Another example
13:00:11 <riv> I am not sure abou the -N sorry
13:00:27 <fizzie> wib_jonas: `git log -N` is equivalent to `git log -n N`, and I use the former form exclusively.
13:02:11 <fizzie> (Probably due to precedent from `tail`. Though I don't think `-N` is POSIXly correct there either.)
13:02:51 <fizzie> wib_jonas: ...oh, sorry, misread your comment and thought you meant `-123`, as in, an actual number, not a literal `-N`.
13:04:09 <fizzie> Don't know about `-N` either. Personally I keep trying to use `hg log -10` instead of `hg log -l 10` because of the git thing.
13:06:18 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93001&oldid=93000 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
13:11:26 <riv> https://www.polytope.net/hedrondude/dice.htm
13:12:52 <riv> so they consider curved face polytwisters
13:13:49 <riv> http://www.polytope.net/hedrondude/twisters.htm cool graphics
13:17:31 <riv> 3d printers are great but I would like a 4d printer
13:36:18 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93002&oldid=92998 * Laclale * (+359) /* XKCD fish */
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13:58:08 <wib_jonas> yes, I meant a literal -N , and I didn't know that git supported the old head/tail style
14:00:00 <wib_jonas> I would actually expect that if (svn log -10) is valid syntax then it's equivalent to (svn log -r 10) rather than (svn log -n 10), but git doesn't have numeric version numbers so it makes less sense there
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14:42:55 <Melvar> riv: Do you have a pointer handy for the fairness of a triagonal prism depending on the roll speed?
14:43:18 <riv> no, someone here said it
14:43:43 <Melvar> Ah, I see, thanks anyway.
14:45:02 <riv> was my explanation unclear?
14:45:21 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjJVukAH-7U
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16:27:33 <esolangs> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93003&oldid=74926 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+2)
16:40:43 <riv> does any regular polytope have an odd number of sides?
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18:27:50 <b_jonas> guess what, I've had the first case when the metal connector of the lightbulb broke off and stayed in the socket
18:28:21 <int-e> riv: yes. take a regular triangle...
18:29:08 <int-e> riv: also simplices in even dimensions.
18:29:27 <b_jonas> I'll have to borrow (or buy) one of those live wire detection tools because I don't dare to try to unscrew it without first checking that the switch disconnects the right thing
18:29:39 <b_jonas> what are those called in English by the way?
18:30:15 <riv> oh very nice!
18:30:28 <riv> simplices?
18:30:56 <riv> a 2-simplex is a triangle,
18:30:58 <riv> a 3-simplex is a tetrahedron,
18:31:00 <riv> a 4-simplex is a 5-cell.
18:31:02 <riv> sweet
18:32:00 <riv> great to know that there are odd dice!
18:32:12 <riv> I never thought about 2d :P
18:33:31 <int-e> regular polytopes become really boring from dimension 5 onwards, so odd-numbered polygons and simplices in even dimensions should be all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regular_polytopes
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19:03:46 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but you don't need regular polygons, you can use many other dice shapes. in particular, you could use a longish cylinder with the base being a 3D fair dice, and the ends capped off so the 4d dice can't land there.
19:04:44 <b_jonas> or you can use a double prism (dual cylinder) for twice as many sides
19:05:11 <b_jonas> no wait
19:10:36 <b_jonas> correction: or you can use a double pyramid (dual prism) for twice as many sides
19:11:49 <b_jonas> I'd blame English, but the Hungarian terminology for this is even weirder: a pyramid in the geometry sense is called “gúla”, I don't even know what that means outside of this sense
19:21:19 <riv> we do not like the prism
19:23:02 <int-e> b_jonas: I know. I didn't answer the dice question, I answered the polytope one.
19:23:19 <int-e> you don't even need to use flat faces
19:24:21 <int-e> (so you can use a lens shape instead of a short cylinder to fix the problem that a coin /might/ land on its side; a thing works for long prisms.)
19:25:00 <int-e> ("fix" -- you can make all the edge equilibria unstable that way)
19:34:09 <int-e> pyramidal ends (which are actually a thing for prismatic dice) also do the trick.
19:35:18 <int-e> I suspect I'm being redundant. But I'll make a point out of not checking the backlog to find out.
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21:36:14 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93004&oldid=93001 * Hakerh400 * (+1804) Add integers and Deadfish interpreter
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21:41:45 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93005&oldid=93004 * Hakerh400 * (+2)
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21:45:39 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93006&oldid=91790 * Hakerh400 * (+704) +[[Pair]]
21:59:09 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93007&oldid=93005 * Hakerh400 * (+220) Add another example
22:03:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93008&oldid=92990 * Bushbo * (+126) /* Introductions */
22:04:01 <esolangs> [[User:Bushbo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93009 * Bushbo * (+78) Created page with "Currently implementing a few esolangs, which will be detailed and linked here."
22:04:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93010&oldid=92954 * Bushbo * (+10) /* E */
22:07:24 <esolangs> [[ECL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93011 * Bushbo * (+3212) Created page with "ECL (event control language) by <ref>bushbo</ref> ECL is a one-dimensional minimal esoteric programming language inspired by Orca, corewars and cellular automata. It wa..."
22:07:37 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93012&oldid=93007 * Hakerh400 * (+10)
22:09:14 <esolangs> [[ECL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93013&oldid=93011 * Bushbo * (+23)
22:09:33 <esolangs> [[User:Bushbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93014&oldid=93009 * Bushbo * (+73)
22:23:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ThEsp * New user account
22:25:08 <esolangs> [[ECL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93015&oldid=93013 * Bushbo * (-64)
22:27:57 <esolangs> [[User:Bushbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93016&oldid=93014 * Bushbo * (+19)
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23:00:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yeetb01]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93017 * Yeetb01 * (+104) how make page?
23:03:24 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93018&oldid=91586 * Yeetb01 * (+1338) added Simpler explanation
23:05:42 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93019&oldid=93018 * Yeetb01 * (+841) added simple
23:06:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93020&oldid=93019 * Yeetb01 * (+2) testing
23:07:37 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93021&oldid=93020 * Yeetb01 * (+55) (just ignore these backslashes for formatting reason)
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23:09:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93022&oldid=93021 * Yeetb01 * (+31) also ignore this backslash
23:10:09 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93023&oldid=93022 * Yeetb01 * (+64) ignore again
23:37:14 <esolangs> [[User:Yeetb01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93024&oldid=93023 * Yeetb01 * (+28)
23:46:20 <zzo38> I wanted to make up the "document view format", but it is the C API and not actually a file format, but the front-end, back-end, host, all will need to be able to provide some functions that the other ones will call; also some opaque types might be defined by one of the parts, etc. Also might need the possibility to switch front-ends at run time and to switch back-ends at run time. Can it be done?
2022-02-09
00:22:03 <ais523> zzo38: I think this is normally called an "API" rather than a "format" – it's certainly possible to design something like that but it's unlikely that people will use it
00:26:30 <zzo38> Yes, but still each part will have functions to call each other, unlike some other API
00:36:33 <b_jonas> fungot, have you tried the new object-oriented version of Skype?
00:36:33 <fungot> b_jonas: im not that important to me how many people watching??? u most b kiding me rigt like.
00:53:41 <fizzie> fungot: u most b kiding me by using that sort of vernacular.
00:53:42 <fungot> fizzie: 5) bad idea bad results. stupid and simply not worth commenting so why do you keep telling yourself that.
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03:01:22 <esolangs> [[ECL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93025&oldid=93015 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Add categories
03:32:22 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93026&oldid=93006 * Laclale * (+331) /* Perl */
03:37:29 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93027 * McDude73 * (+975) Created page with "'''Boyfriend.xml''' is a joke [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:McDude73]] in 2022 based on the player's main avatar from Friday Night Funkin', Boyfriend ..."
03:39:23 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93028&oldid=92953 * McDude73 * (+20) /* General languages */
03:40:07 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93029&oldid=93002 * Laclale * (+36) /* XKCD fish */
03:40:23 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93030&oldid=93027 * McDude73 * (+0)
03:43:56 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93031&oldid=93030 * McDude73 * (+7) /* Basic idea */
03:44:42 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93032&oldid=93031 * McDude73 * (+0) /* Architecture */
03:45:34 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93033&oldid=93032 * McDude73 * (+26) /* Architecture */
03:51:00 <esolangs> [[User:McDude73]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93034&oldid=89969 * McDude73 * (+13) /* Joke languages */
04:32:07 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93035&oldid=93029 * Laclale * (+21) /* Calculatives */
04:35:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LEO * New user account
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05:39:33 <esolangs> [[ECL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93036&oldid=93025 * Bushbo * (+14) /* Introduction */
05:39:56 <esolangs> [[ECL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93037&oldid=93036 * Bushbo * (+2) /* Introduction */
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06:10:04 <esolangs> [[Simpler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93038 * Yeetb01 * (+1355) basically just edit this into a page cuz im too lazy
06:12:27 <esolangs> [[Simpler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93039&oldid=93038 * Yeetb01 * (-8) prn Print value
07:47:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93040&oldid=93010 * Soyuzguy123! * (+13) added SRlang to the list
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08:33:22 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93041&oldid=93033 * Laclale * (+22) pfft-
08:55:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93042&oldid=93040 * Oerjan * (+0) orst
08:56:38 <ais523> oerjan: can I confirm that I put Advance The Wheel! in the correct spot on the language list? I wasn't sure how the alphabetisation rule interacted with spaces
08:58:28 <oerjan> ais523: you did (and i made a comment on irc but maybe you didn't notice the ping because it was just after your edits)
08:58:45 <ais523> ah right, I did indeed miss the ping
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09:17:16 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93043&oldid=93035 * Laclale * (+75) /* Examples */
09:42:12 <oerjan> sorry dr. monahan, but lucrezia is probably right
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09:51:33 <esolangs> [[Woodchuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93044&oldid=90189 * Rdococ * (-12) /* Implementation */
09:51:42 <esolangs> [[Woodchuck/Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93045&oldid=86451 * Rdococ * (+1)
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11:09:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Rdococ * moved [[C() (Archived)]] to [[C()]] over redirect
11:09:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Rdococ * Rdococ deleted redirect [[C()]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[C() (Archived)]]"
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12:08:48 <esolangs> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93048&oldid=93046 * Rdococ * (+325)
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13:03:49 <oerjan> argh astral codex ten front page changed to embed the whole posts directly
13:06:44 <oerjan> ok i can use the archive page instead
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13:38:14 <esolangs> [[User:McDude73]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93049&oldid=93034 * McDude73 * (-9) /* Official languages */
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14:20:25 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93050&oldid=90393 * McDude73 * (+1) /* Hello, world! */ Fixed an accident that conflicted with the ASCII table format.
14:24:17 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93051&oldid=93041 * McDude73 * (+0) /* Basic idea */
14:40:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CapeMan * New user account
14:49:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93052&oldid=93008 * CapeMan * (+196) /* Introductions */
15:17:38 <esolangs> [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93053&oldid=93048 * Rdococ * (+614) Add "copy-with-assignment-made" assignment operator and first-class functions
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15:19:27 <esolangs> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93054&oldid=93053 * Rdococ * (+9)
15:36:12 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93055&oldid=93026 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+8)
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16:22:52 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93056&oldid=92952 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+27)
16:28:32 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93057&oldid=92783 * BowlingPizzaBall * (-5) Grammar fixes
16:36:04 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93058&oldid=92879 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+138)
16:36:32 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93059&oldid=93058 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+4)
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18:53:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:MechaniQue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93060 * Monochromeninja * (+2612) created page, added my post
19:05:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: I recommend https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php?board=12.0 instead of the archive page. works without magic javascript "scroll down load more" nonsense.
19:07:32 <int-e> fungot: are you capable of bottomless scroll?
19:07:33 <fungot> int-e: you didnt put mcgruber on there. simple.
19:09:23 <zzo38> If you make the viewport height property to return an exception or return a negative number or Infinity, how much will that confuse them?
19:12:59 <int-e> Ah, happy to see that "bottomless scroll" is already in use. It could be more popular though.
19:14:12 <int-e> (I *mostly* don't mind it that much... except that it makes scrollbars lie. That's abominable, I use those as progress indicators.)
19:17:43 <fizzie> I thought "infinite scroll" is the standard word for that.
19:18:05 <zzo38> I mostly dislike web pages with JavaScripts (and also CSS), in general. There are some ways to improve some situations in client implementations, though, in some cases.
19:18:13 <fizzie> Bottomless scroll sounds like that thing they offer in restaurants with non-capped drink refills. Bottomless brunch and so on.
19:19:12 <int-e> fizzie: Yes, "infinite scroll" is standard. "bottomless" is expressing a sentiment.
19:20:03 <int-e> Because I have this tendency to fall into those scrolls and realize after 3 updates what's happening. And then I get annoyed.
19:20:53 <int-e> It also connects nicely with concepts like the bottom of a page.
19:21:22 <zzo38> I mostly disable the scripts anyways
19:22:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: i don't think that link fits the limited purpose i want to _use_ that archive page for
19:24:02 <int-e> zzo38: I do too. So it doesn't happen *too* often; I'm familiar with the most frequent instances of that pattern (youtube, mostly, for me)
19:26:04 <oerjan> (basically the archive page looks similar to what the front page used to be until about today)
19:35:46 <zzo38> What is needed (also mention in a web page from GNU) is that you can substitute scripts and parts of scripts. However, I should think that it is not good enough; scripts added by the end user should have the capability of native codes too, and needs possibility to inspect the received scripts and to override certain functionalities even if you do not want to override everything.
19:36:56 <zzo38> There are also some new functions and HTTP headers I had seen mentioned; if there is possibility for end user to customize them then it can help, but as it is, it is not helpful and may be harmful. Even, you can remove many other options if this one is added, since if you have request/response overriding then you do not need the option for cookies, languages, etc.
19:38:04 <zzo38> It can then use the request/response overriding also to disable autoplay (since they have defined headers to do that, already), scripts, iframes, and other features, as well as to force them to be enabled, too.
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19:43:57 <zzo38> The document view format that I mentioned is one part of what would be my idea making a better web browser out of C header files (without executable codes), and then the actual implementations can be modular.
19:45:32 <b_jonas> int-e: is bottomless scroll like the bottomless drink in the title text of https://xkcd.com/1099/ ?
19:45:52 <b_jonas> yeah, what fizzie says, restaurants
19:46:19 <int-e> b_jonas: quite
19:46:37 <int-e> a bottomless drink doesn't sound very attractive
19:47:02 <int-e> It'll make a big splash and who mops the floor afterwards?
19:47:57 <zzo38> I would expect the people who are doing the cleaning, will mop the floor afterward, but if that is too common then someone will complain
19:48:07 <int-e> "A skeleton walks into a bar and asks for a beer and a mop."
19:48:22 <riv> orders spare ribs
19:50:07 <int-e> by size
19:51:08 <int-e> `? cdop
19:51:11 <HackEso> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
20:05:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:AmBored]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93061 * Monochromeninja * (+1230) created page, added my post
20:06:01 <esolangs> [[AmBored]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93062&oldid=79445 * Monochromeninja * (-2) changed category unimplemented to implemented -- implementation is on the talk page
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21:13:38 <fizzie> Hmf. The space bar of this (relatively cheap, "non-mechanical", scissor-switch) keyboard still works properly, but somehow it's lost the tactile feedback bump completely. I didn't even know that was a possible failure mode.
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22:18:40 <esolangs> [[Squi~~le]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93063&oldid=91831 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Stub
22:18:51 <esolangs> [[Squi~~le]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93064&oldid=93063 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fix
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2022-02-10
00:03:04 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93065&oldid=93056 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+218)
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01:46:38 <zzo38> I saw the most recent list of changes of Magic: the Gathering. Some of the changes seem good ones.
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03:49:58 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93066&oldid=93050 * McDude73 * (+411) Calculated the computational class, changed a bit of description for a command, and added another example program.
03:50:53 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93067&oldid=93066 * McDude73 * (+0) /* Infinite loop */ Patched the code slightly due to an incorrect condition.
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04:01:50 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93068&oldid=93067 * McDude73 * (+9) Adjusted the way the author is mentioned
04:02:19 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93069&oldid=93051 * McDude73 * (+9) Adjusted the way the author is mentioned
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12:34:27 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93070&oldid=93069 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Add category
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12:49:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:MechaniQue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93071&oldid=93060 * Monochromeninja * (+186) edited my response
12:57:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sgji * New user account
12:58:08 <sgji> so true
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14:28:09 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93072&oldid=93070 * McDude73 * (-23) This is not a legitimate language, just a joke language. Removed the Languages category.
14:32:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93073&oldid=93042 * McDude73 * (+20) /* B */
14:34:30 <esolangs> [[Minkolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93074&oldid=70899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* External resources */ add category
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15:44:01 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93075&oldid=92890 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
15:45:11 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93076&oldid=82266 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Update categories
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16:18:13 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93077&oldid=92871 * Hakerh400 * (+483) Add a comment and add a new idea
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16:38:16 <int-e> meh, is https://pwmarcz.pl/kaboom/ broken?
16:39:32 <int-e> hmm, no, works in a fresh profile. hmpf
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17:38:28 <impomatic> If anyone is interested in Core War, there's a tournament about to be livestreamed in about 20 mins (6pm GMT).
17:38:32 <impomatic> https://www.twitch.tv/corewarglobal
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18:19:19 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall/User:BowlingPizzaBall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93078 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+64) Created page with "So you're a recursion enthusiast, eh? Well good for you I guess."
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19:29:48 <oerjan> `? recursion
19:29:51 <HackEso> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
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19:47:50 <myname> what would be a good general way to expand sudokus? like, i think just making it 3d does not really add more options but probably removes some
19:48:05 <riv> yes
19:48:29 <riv> i do sudoku with letters
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19:52:20 <riv> irregular sudoku
19:52:35 <riv> https://sudokuspoiler.azurewebsites.net/IrregularSudoku/IrregularSudoku12
19:52:58 <riv> https://krazydad.com/jigsawsudoku/
19:56:15 <myname> irregulars aren't really expanding it
19:56:28 <riv> yes they are
19:56:41 <myname> it's still the same amount of cells
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21:06:42 <esolangs> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93079&oldid=82979 * Oklomsy * (+361)
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21:08:19 <esolangs> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93080&oldid=93079 * Oklomsy * (+49)
21:12:09 <esolangs> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93081&oldid=93080 * Oklomsy * (-351)
21:29:39 <esolangs> [[Danica]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93082&oldid=69115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Add category and unpipe
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23:11:58 <esolangs> [[V3i]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93083 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+3148) Created page with "'''V3i''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:BowlingPizzaBall|BowlingPizzaBall]] which has only three variables named x, y, and z.<br>Despite this, the lang..."
23:13:01 <esolangs> [[V3i]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93084&oldid=93083 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+39)
23:23:11 <esolangs> [[V3i]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93085&oldid=93084 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+4) last edit for now hopefully
23:23:51 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93086&oldid=93059 * BowlingPizzaBall * (-55)
23:25:54 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93087&oldid=92877 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+38)
23:27:30 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93088&oldid=92939 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+72)
23:31:16 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93089&oldid=93055 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+187)
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2022-02-11
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00:55:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93090&oldid=93087 * Laclale * (+38) /* Please Porige Hot */
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01:57:05 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93091&oldid=93073 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+10)
01:58:39 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93092&oldid=93065 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+61)
02:01:45 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93093&oldid=93072 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+9) definitely a stub. please add proper documentation
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02:55:31 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93094&oldid=93090 * Hakerh400 * (+47) +[[Pair]]
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03:22:52 <esolangs> [[V3i]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93095&oldid=93085 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Examples */ add links
03:23:19 <esolangs> [[V3i]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93096&oldid=93095 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Deadfish */ ditto
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04:08:11 <esolangs> [[Template:Yearcat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93097&oldid=31858 * Razetime * (-46)
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08:36:18 <esolangs> [[I Wanna Be the Esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93098 * Razetime * (+2490) initial page
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08:54:39 <esolangs> [[I Wanna Be the Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93099&oldid=93098 * Razetime * (+2)
10:54:00 <riv> g'day
10:58:40 <riv> https://www.sudoku-puzzles-online.com/irregular-dodecadoku/print-irregular-12x12-sudoku.php
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11:37:52 <esolangs> [[I Wanna Be the Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93100&oldid=93099 * Laclale * (+22) /* Implementation */
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13:44:43 <esolangs> [[V3i]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93101&oldid=93096 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+34) h... how do you forget this?
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14:07:16 <esolangs> [[Template:Yearcat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93102&oldid=93097 * Oerjan * (+46) Undo revision 93097 by [[Special:Contributions/Razetime|Razetime]] ([[User talk:Razetime|talk]]) This change made most of year categories not actual subcategories of Category:Years
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14:08:42 <oerjan> argh
14:09:55 <oerjan> fizzie: Category:Years looks all messed up presumably due to the caching bugs
14:10:25 <oerjan> (even after i fixed that templating)
14:10:54 <oerjan> oh wait it fixed itself
14:11:01 <oerjan> just some delay i guess
14:11:45 <int-e> Oh another U:HP vandalism, sigh.
14:13:03 <esolangs> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93103&oldid=81904 * Oerjan * (-11) rm template which causes miscategorization
14:13:47 <oerjan> int-e: was on it hth
14:13:52 <riv> Did you know that esolang good?
14:14:03 <oerjan> riv: i does
14:15:15 <int-e> oerjan: Yeah I assumed so.
14:16:20 <oerjan> int-e: i probably wouldn't have noticed if not for the strange delay that caused me to have to check that all the years had got there
14:16:44 <oerjan> possibly that's what razetime was trying to fix
14:21:29 <int-e> mediawiki caching works in mysterious ways
14:22:09 <riv> fungot: Did you know that esolang good?
14:22:09 <fungot> riv: air france flight296. i love your bike jump, cool
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14:32:17 <int-e> Oh yesterday's and today's QC are fun, I didn't expect things to go in that direction at all.
14:33:03 <riv> QC.... hmm
14:33:13 <int-e> `? qc
14:33:17 <HackEso> QC is Quantum Computing.
14:33:23 <int-e> Ah, helpful.
14:33:26 <riv> i found it
14:33:59 <riv> I don't know how you stay up to date on these webcomics. I'm at page 440 of homestuck now
14:34:19 <int-e> `learn QC is Questionable Computing or Quantum Content, or was it the other way around?
14:34:22 <HackEso> Relearned 'qc': QC is Questionable Computing or Quantum Content, or was it the other way around?
14:36:21 <riv> Questionable Computing
14:36:24 <riv> lol
14:37:13 <int-e> riv: I have a silly scheme with bookmarks pointing to the last strip I've read. There are browser add-ons too (https://github.com/ameboide/webcomic_reader seems to be one of those) and even specialized apps.
14:39:44 <int-e> (silly and somewhat lossy... I dropped GC for almost a year before Taneb reminded me of its existence.)
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15:00:40 <riv> ok the punchline was great
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15:28:10 <esolangs> [[LayerASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93104&oldid=78399 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+406) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the LayerASM programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
15:32:57 <esolangs> [[LayerASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93105&oldid=93104 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+306) Added an example section containing as its incipient member an infinitely repeating cat program.
15:33:52 <fizzie> I should get some statistics on whether that file cache is actually helpful for anything.
15:34:30 <fizzie> And/or schedule a periodic run of maintenance/rebuildFileCache.php or something.
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17:17:54 <esolangs> [[V3i]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93106&oldid=93101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) Remove unnecessary pipe
17:18:07 <zzo38> Is it acceptable to use longjmp in the comparison function of qsort?
17:21:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think that can leak memory, but it's probably safe other than leaking memory. it's not a stable sort, so it could be implemented without allocating extra memory, but GNU libc docs specifically says it may use extra memory, and since it needs to work on large arrays, that memory won't come from the stack
17:21:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: heck, in fact it might also leave some of your array in an undefined state if you longjmp out of it
17:22:10 <b_jonas> so I wouldn't recommend longjmp out of it
17:25:00 <b_jonas> if you want to be able to longjmp out of it, then you probably have to write your own custom sort routine
17:25:36 <b_jonas> and even then it's much better if you can allocate memory and ensure to clean that up before or after the longjmp
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17:40:24 <zzo38> Well, I would not care about the state of the array in such a case anyways, but the leaking memory is a valid consideration to not do that.
18:07:35 <esolangs> [[HASSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93107&oldid=92076 * Ethan T. Stanger * (+10)
18:15:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could care if the elements of the array also reference external memory or otherwise need destructors. that is, it's not just that the order of the elements is wrong in the array, it could have duplicates and missing items because items were moved to an extra region.
18:15:59 <b_jonas> and qsort is probably in rights to even write other data (not of the type you're using) temporarily in the array
18:17:16 <b_jonas> the problem is that there isn't any other sorting routine with a pre-made C interface that I can recommend instead
18:17:20 <b_jonas> you'll have to roll your own
18:17:33 <b_jonas> the algorithms that you can use themselves are of course documented in TAOCP
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19:53:41 <arseniiv> hi again!
19:55:11 <arseniiv> we have a simply typed lambda calculus with 0, 1, + and × types added as a typed equivalent of an (intuitionistic) natural deduction. What would be the analogue of sequent calculus?
19:56:35 <arseniiv> I feel it doesn’t need to be linear logic but something simpler can be made (with again just 0, 1, + and × types, and → as an intristic type too, not a defined −∘ of linear logic
19:58:23 <riv> for sequent calculus you need call/cc?
19:58:27 <arseniiv> all this was born from a question of complexity: + and × are categorically dual but to prove (A + B) + C ≅ A + (B + C) seems more complicated than to prove (A × B) × C ≅ A × (B × C)
19:59:06 <riv> hm https://mathoverflow.net/a/29597
19:59:21 <riv> i think you can prove (A + B) + C ≅ A + (B + C) using elements in an abelian category or something hth
19:59:27 <arseniiv> <riv> for sequent calculus you need call/cc? => oh that would be unfortunate :(
19:59:33 <riv> it's also provable using yoneda lemma hth
19:59:43 <riv> i think i was wrong about call/cc
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20:06:04 <arseniiv> read the answers on MO, interesting
20:06:38 <arseniiv> I came to this question exactly from defining parts of the isomorphism by pattern matching
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20:07:28 <arseniiv> in case of × we have just one pattern and in case of + we have three, for each of two functions and each of two proofs for f (g x) = x and g (f y) = y
20:07:44 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that intuitionistic sequent calculus is avoiding more than one thing in the right, and classical can have any number of things in the right?
20:08:38 <arseniiv> so + seems 3 times more complicated by a naive sight. Of course in case of × there are more *destructors* but they don’t seem to appear and make things complex
20:09:14 <arseniiv> zzo38: yeah I read something like that too
20:10:32 <arseniiv> and then we would be asymmetrical again even there, hmm. But wait no, that avoidance is just about → rule only IIRC
20:12:59 <esolangs> [[Moaiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93108&oldid=91276 * Eiim * (+814) Add new, slightly shorter cat program
20:14:24 <arseniiv> I also have a strange impractical question: is SO(2) *the same* as U(1) or not. Meaning, with all structures that are commonly used with them. It boils down a bit to a question is there an i in ℂ or not. And that one can’t be answered one way or the other because sometimes we need ℂ and sometimes we need (ℂ, i)
20:15:50 <arseniiv> but I’m not feeling particularly well about what that gives
20:16:28 <arseniiv> though this is not as impractical as I said. If you define cos and sin, what do you *ought* to use, SO(2) or U(1)?
20:17:01 <arseniiv> that’s of course an incorrect question but I’m not sure it’s more than 50% unsalvageable
20:20:01 <arseniiv> also interesting trivia: you don’t need to pick i to define cos (if using U(1)). But you do for sin. Analogously, you don’t need an oriented plane for cos but you do for sin, and this way it makes an obvious sense
20:24:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you don't need to pick i to define sin either. sin(x) = x - x**3/6 + x**5/120 - x**7/5040 + ...
20:24:40 <Cale> arseniiv: Those are isomorphic as... almost every structure normally placed on them.
20:25:31 <arseniiv> hm wait why not to define sin to have values in ∧² of our plane haha. The problem is that it would look less independed of the plane than ℝ looks. But maybe that’s because we don’t have good notation for ℝ² without a canonical basis and we may see “a real plane” as a name for different things we might need to choose from, though they are isomorphic up to what we need and we may well treat them all as one in this case
20:26:11 <arseniiv> b_jonas: we might have picked −sin instead of sin though
20:27:01 <arseniiv> like we could have liked to have not cos' = sin but sin' = cos and that would be this second case
20:27:48 <Cale> They're not just isomorphic as groups, but also as topological groups or Lie groups
20:28:24 <Cale> The distinction has more to do with how the definition is carried out, but you end up defining the same thing.
20:28:57 <arseniiv> (in my headcanon cos is the first coordinate of a first vector of an orthonormal basis have been rotated, and sin is the second coordinate)
20:29:52 <arseniiv> Cale: whew now I feel easier that at least someone confirmed it’s no big deal that they are named in two ways
20:30:06 <arseniiv> not that I asked much though
20:30:33 <arseniiv> only here and in an other place which is not too much about math
20:30:50 <Cale> You can also take the group of unit complex numbers under multiplication (sometimes called T), or the quotient group R/Z, and those are also isomorphic to this.
20:31:29 <arseniiv> wait what’s the formal difference between T and U(1) then?
20:33:10 <Cale> U(1) is the group of unitary linear transformations C^1 -> C^1. Of course, those can be represented by 1x1 complex matrices...
20:34:59 <Cale> and 1x1 matrices behave suspiciously like their sole entry :)
20:35:22 <arseniiv> ah okay indeed I injected C into L(C, C) and forgot that technically scalar operators are different from scalars
20:36:18 <Cale> And then if we want even more confusion over distinctions that don't typically matter, is C^1 the same vector space as C or not?
20:40:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:001-tarnary-cantor-set.png]]": Esolang "Fractal" - Example "Ternary Cantor set"
20:41:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hakerh400 * moved [[File:001-tarnary-cantor-set.png]] to [[File:001-ternary-cantor-set.png]]: typo
20:44:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:002-simple-tree.png]]": Esolang "Fractal" - Example "Simple tree"
20:47:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:003-sierpinsky-carpet.png]]": Esolang "Fractal" - Example "Sierpiski carpet"
20:47:22 <arseniiv> Cale: yeah that case when I want a better notation system. As C^1 sometimes means one-tuples of numbers, in which case it has a canonical basis (1) and sometimes it means any space where we don’t care about a basis, and then the first one becomes too concrete
20:48:37 <arseniiv> also that distinction between a scalar s and an operator v ↦ s v reminded me about a peculiar case where s ↦ (v ↦ s v) is not injective
20:48:52 <arseniiv> it is when a space is 0-dimensional :D
20:49:09 <arseniiv> that’s a bit hurtful for me
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20:54:16 <arseniiv> probably like because there’s always more things than a layman would typically think there are possible, when you consider 0. But in this case there are less things! Just a single scalar operator because there’s just a single operator at all
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21:40:41 <esolangs> [[I Wanna Be the Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93114&oldid=93100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) Add categories
21:41:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Applespineapples * New user account
21:46:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:004-barnsley-fern.png]]": Esolang "Fractal" - Example "Barnsley fern"
21:46:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93116&oldid=93052 * Applespineapples * (+210) abcd
21:46:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93117&oldid=93116 * Applespineapples * (-26)
21:51:03 <esolangs> [[User:Applespineapples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93118 * Applespineapples * (+22) Created page with "I am a Love Live! fan."
21:51:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Hakerh400 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:004-barnsley-fern.png]]": High quality version
22:01:46 <esolangs> [[Fractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93120 * Hakerh400 * (+4187) +[[Fractal]]
22:02:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93121&oldid=93091 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Fractal]]
22:02:30 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93122&oldid=93075 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Fractal]]
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02:29:02 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93123&oldid=93077 * Laclale * (+169) /* Game */
02:30:51 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93124&oldid=93123 * Laclale * (-142) /* Game */
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08:01:29 <definitelya> Heyyy! I am not a programmer, but I want to have a good workflow regardless. I'll be starting out the learning process using Befunge; I am ready, I think...
08:02:24 <Corbin> Cool. Befunge does not seem like the easiest first programming language, though. Good luck.
08:02:54 <definitelya> mhm.. Thank you ^^
08:03:27 <definitelya> A good workflow is a 2D workflow!
08:08:07 <Corbin> You might find Orca interesting, too. It can make music
08:10:57 <definitelya> True, I saw a video on it. It's neat and simple.
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15:18:41 <razetime[m]> befunge is fun.. do feel free to ask question
16:13:22 <definitelya__> razetime[m]: Thanks, I will probably consult the specification on github a lot.
16:14:22 <definitelya__> I am currently creating schematics with Minetest, a blocky game, but tomorrow I shall create something simple I guess.
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17:44:51 <sgji> definitelya__, you can do whatever you want, but id advise against befunge as a first language, pretty much every other language would be better for a beginner to learn programming concepts
17:46:05 <definitelya__> I see, ok. It is complex.
17:46:49 <sgji> it was specifically designed to be complex, lol
17:48:35 <definitelya__> True
18:03:30 <fizzie> We-ell... it was specifically designed to be hard to compile. I don't know if it's particularly complex as far as writing it goes.
18:04:24 <definitelya__> I'll funge my way around it somehow. ;)
18:04:43 <fizzie> Not saying I'd recommend it for learning how to program, the 2D syntax and lack of any "non-local" control flow (i.e., function calls) does make writing nontrivial programs somewhat tricky. But still.
18:05:00 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think about learning to program using Befunge?
18:05:01 <fungot> fizzie: maybe we could follow plan9 and have the right to be subversive?
18:05:12 <fizzie> (fungot itself is written in Befunge, so it should have a good idea about that.)
18:05:12 <fungot> fizzie: do you want your language to do all the receives and values to make a cross-country flight to acapulco so i can make someone laugh
18:05:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: Hofstadter says that that's not the right logic, because after all we're made of physics and biology but that doesn't make it easy for us to understand them
18:07:36 <definitelya__> fizzie: Yes! I also saw a video on Befunge by Truttle1.
18:08:20 <definitelya__> fungot seems vey functioning.
18:08:20 <fungot> definitelya__: it seems to
18:08:32 <fizzie> fungot: Emphasis on the word "seems", eh?
18:08:33 <fungot> fizzie: ( is it that intel cpus are terrible. it took me a long persistance display
18:08:39 <definitelya__> xD
18:08:50 <definitelya__> ohhh
18:08:55 <definitelya__> shots fired
18:09:15 <fizzie> fungot: You're *running* on an Intel CPU right now. Is that why your responses are so terrible?
18:09:15 <fungot> fizzie: i like scheme, modulo the definition of list-case in-line, and then
18:10:17 <fizzie> (I guess that might have been an endorsement of Scheme as a first language?)
18:11:15 <definitelya__> mhm
18:11:27 <definitelya__> I'll just have to trust the bot then :3
18:12:49 <definitelya__> Too bad, no info yet on the wiki.
18:14:04 <definitelya__> fungot, choose a programming language for me.
18:14:04 <fungot> definitelya__: that might be
18:14:28 <definitelya__> fungot, choose an esolang for me.
18:14:28 <fungot> definitelya__: much more like to see these small korean girls in french fnord do have money over there, it's there for a while,
18:23:36 <definitelya__> I think it meant https://esolangs.org/wiki/Enterprise%E2%84%A2
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18:38:05 <sgji> fizzie, i understand, i do think there is some coorelation between complexity to compile and to write, atleast in the case of befunge which i would consider to be complex to write, atleast for a first language
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19:07:30 <sgji> sgeo, i like your name
19:07:55 <Sgeo> Hi, ty
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19:43:28 <pyautogui> Newbie question: I have occasionally been on esolangs.org for a couple of years now, and have noticed that the featured language has not changed from Thue. Why is that? It seems like there would be turnover.
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19:45:35 <sgji> bf was featured language for 8+ years, its just changed infrequently
19:45:44 <fizzie> It's a very irregular process, and schedule: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages
19:46:12 <fizzie> I'd like to feature Befunge (already proposed as a candidate), but I just feel the article could do with some polishing first, and I never get around to it.
19:46:23 <pyautogui> Got it. Thank you for the quick answer!
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20:01:29 <int-e> obpun: Shouldn't Turing tarpits rather be "unfeatured languages"?
20:02:07 <riv> featherless
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21:11:41 <int-e> riv: . o O ( BFS is so shallow )
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22:38:49 <esolangs> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93125&oldid=88032 * Digital Hunter * (-136) /* Euler's number calculator */ shorter
22:45:34 <esolangs> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93126&oldid=93125 * Digital Hunter * (-36) /* Three-param */
22:53:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: that
22:53:53 <b_jonas> that's why I suggest featuring Nopfunge instead
23:10:07 <int-e> why isn't the white border here symmetric? https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/playground.html (screenshot https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/playground.png )
23:13:32 <fizzie> Inspecting the body element in Chrome says its computed height is 604.
23:14:40 <fizzie> It becomes symmetric for me if I add `display: block;` in the <svg> element's style attribute.
23:14:46 <fizzie> So my guess would be "something about lines".
23:14:49 <int-e> hmm
23:15:21 <int-e> Thanks, I'll take it.
23:15:47 <fizzie> Web Development™.
23:17:56 <int-e> oh. so 4px is the descender length of my font?
23:18:29 <int-e> since the SVG is aligned with the text baseline...
23:18:48 <int-e> I guess that makes sense.
23:22:02 <int-e> fizzie: That was some good sense of direction :)
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09:07:08 <riv> https://twitter.com/mananself/status/1492643753084940289 regarding dice
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10:11:30 <esolangs> [[User:WallGraffiti]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93127&oldid=92159 * WallGraffiti * (-1)
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12:28:39 <b_jonas> fungot, please explain to me the difference between a specter, a spectre, a scepter, a sceptre, detailing which ones can mean a wheighing scale, a staff or wand, and a ghost respectively.
12:28:40 <fungot> b_jonas: have you ever installed linux on an x86 arch. class. chances that you'll be impressed if i use erc too, but even his report of the interpreter
12:29:03 <b_jonas> fungot: yes or course. x86 was all we had when I was young.
12:29:04 <fungot> b_jonas: is there any nice way of systematically " fnord" " get_install" then echo " missing i"; fi; done
12:29:24 <b_jonas> fungot: can we get back to scpeters and specters?
12:29:25 <fungot> b_jonas: i still can't believe that you can run named commands with fnord that from context, riastradh. ashinn has led you to that sort of thing
12:56:37 <definitelya> fungot: I'd just like to interject for a moment...
12:56:37 <fungot> definitelya: i've seen a 104-byte hello world.
15:21:00 <esolangs> [[ZFC++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93128&oldid=70463 * Hakerh400 * (-36)
15:21:36 <esolangs> [[Grid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93129&oldid=76439 * Hakerh400 * (-13) /* References */
16:15:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:BrainFuckFart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93130&oldid=78205 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix link to category
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17:59:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:I Wanna Be the Esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93131 * Ais523 * (+1612) thoughts on the computational class, even though this isn't fully specified yet
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18:37:34 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93132&oldid=93012 * Hakerh400 * (-159)
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18:50:02 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93133&oldid=93132 * Hakerh400 * (-38)
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18:50:41 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93134&oldid=93089 * Hakerh400 * (-15) /* Pair */
18:51:25 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93135&oldid=93088 * Hakerh400 * (-1100) /* Pair */
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19:05:27 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93136&oldid=93133 * Hakerh400 * (+128)
19:06:08 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93137&oldid=93136 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Call */
19:06:27 <esolangs> [[Pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93138&oldid=93137 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Call */
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19:30:57 <riv> if you roll a 4d dice, is the table 3d?
19:31:08 <riv> (for 3d dice, we say the table is 2d)
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19:37:50 <b_jonas> riv: yes
19:37:59 <b_jonas> at least the tabletop is 3D
19:38:18 <riv> i see
19:38:26 <riv> i ahd been thinking about basically dice landing on their edge
19:38:28 <riv> which makes no sense
19:38:41 <riv> good that it is sorted out now
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19:58:48 <esolangs> [[Fractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93139&oldid=93120 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) Add category
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14:46:26 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93140&oldid=92516 * Ginger Industries * (+148)
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15:35:31 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93141&oldid=93140 * Ginger Industries * (+234)
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18:42:40 <sgji> riv, yes they would be rolled onto a 3d plane, which would appear "flat" to a 4d creature in a sense (a 4d creature could see all of a 3d shape at once like how we can see all of a 2d shape at once)
18:42:58 <riv> ok
18:43:51 <sgji> it would look very weird to a 3d observer lol, the shape would seemingly come in and out of existance rapidly as it passes through a 3d slice
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18:45:49 <Corbin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract#Net has some nice animations for the 4D hypercube.
18:48:41 <riv> so we are looking for isotopic polytopes
18:49:09 <riv> these correspond to fair dice
18:50:58 <sgji> i think its just shapes made of the same facets connected the same way to eachother?
18:51:44 <sgji> 4d probably has a lot more than 3d
18:52:47 <riv> yeah the facets are in a transitive symmetry group
18:53:01 <riv> so you can rotate any one to any other and the shape is the same
18:53:30 <sgji> https://cormullion.github.io/assets/images/pentachoron/showall-pentachoronmovie.gif here is a good gif showing rotating 3d projection of the pentachoron (pentachoron (4-simplex) is 5 tetrahedrons)
18:53:42 <sgji> multiple rotations
18:54:31 <riv> so this can roll a 5
18:54:36 <sgji> ye
18:55:32 <sgji> n-simplexes can roll up to an n+1
18:55:39 <sgji> i think they are fair in every dimension
18:55:47 <sgji> that is every n-simplex is fair
18:58:36 <riv> we need it to be convex too
18:59:00 <riv> i always though the self intersecting shapes should be reject outright.. dunno why people include them
18:59:16 <sgji> http://www.polytope.net/hedrondude/dice.htm here is a page with some good info on dice in different dimensions
19:00:06 <sgji> the 4-simplex is convex, the net may look concave but i assure you when you fold it up into the 4th dimension it becomes convex
19:00:59 <riv> I see
19:01:40 <sgji> just like how a cube's 2d net doesnt look convex but is when you fold it into a cube
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19:44:32 <b_jonas> sgji: I don't think that's a good description. the planar net of a cube fods onto the *surface* of a cube, not the whole cube, and that surface is very much not convex. indeed, the net of a regular tetrahedron is convex, but when you fold it up, the surface is no longer convex, there's a big hole in the middle.
19:48:54 <b_jonas> that said, yes, if you fold out the surface of a regular 5-cell to flat space, it won't be convex
19:49:49 <sgji> i was referring to the shape that is filled in
19:50:59 <sgji> i know folding a net will make it hollow, but that is kinda irrelevant imo
19:54:03 <sgji> because we were talking about fair dice
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2022-02-15
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02:06:29 <esolangs> [[Indurate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93142 * OliveIsAWord * (+2118) Created page with "'''Indurate''', also known as '''Friable''', is a subset of the Rust programming language focused on the safety, immutability, and elegance that is lost in the disgraceful, he..."
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03:30:17 <esolangs> [[Indurate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93143&oldid=93142 * OliveIsAWord * (+297) added infobox
03:40:38 <zzo38> Now I made up my own HTML conversion of the Magic: the Gathering rules. There are a few problems such as it incorrectly believes that the PO box number is a rule, but other than it it seems to be working OK.
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05:45:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zach6585 * New user account
05:48:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93144&oldid=93117 * Zach6585 * (+213) /* Introductions */
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08:34:51 <riv> https://erich-friedman.github.io/puzzle/
08:34:54 <riv> puzzles
08:35:07 <riv> zzo38: I dont understand this
08:35:18 <riv> how is magic converted into HTML? and what is a PO box nunmber?
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10:14:22 <b_jonas> riv: a PO box is a type of smail mail destination for larger volume receivers where the mail stays at a post office in a box that the high volume recipient rents. since a post office has more than one PO box, they're identified by a number in the mailing address.
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11:15:44 <int-e> (and there are PO boxes for low volumes too)
11:16:43 <riv> how can PO boxes be used as rules in a card game?
11:17:28 <riv> maybe the numbers can be compard against each other digit by digit to choose who has an advantage
11:18:17 <b_jonas> riv: it's a contact address to the publisher, listed at the start of the ruleset
11:18:34 <riv> is it always the same number? that ruins the fun..
11:18:45 <b_jonas> they're not relevant to the rules themselves, it's just metadata explained at the start for how to get everything else other than that rules document
11:24:06 <b_jonas> get the Comprehensive rules from https://magic.wizards.com/en/rules , other rules from https://wpn.wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents , and see for yourself
11:24:38 <b_jonas> wait, that doesn't seem right
11:24:44 <b_jonas> where are the tournament rules then?
11:24:56 <b_jonas> oh, they are in that list
11:25:02 <b_jonas> hidden among the set faqs
11:25:07 <b_jonas> *sigh*
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13:16:55 <riv> fungot: did you know that esolang good
13:16:55 <fungot> riv: although that fit in 6 bytes then it would
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14:02:04 <riv> https://github.com/psg-mit/twist-popl22 did you know that quantum .q lang good
14:15:57 <fizzie> fungot: A 6-byte esolang? That's pretty minimal. Depending of course what it's 6 bytes of.
14:15:57 <fungot> fizzie: there are only spam deletion logs :d
14:17:33 <int-e> oh, meta spam
14:18:33 <int-e> (If there's a log of delting spam, is the spam truly deleted?)
14:18:45 <int-e> *deleting
14:21:07 <definitelya> "Only the *BEST* anti- spam solutions are delivered by Solution Suggester(TM) bots, try this one now!"
14:22:04 <int-e> Only if they show Marvin levels of self-awareness and enthusiasm.
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16:23:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93145&oldid=92865 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+273)
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19:52:00 <zzo38> The PO box is listed at the end and not at the start of the document.
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20:02:12 <riv> > when the gregorian calendar was implemented 10 days were deleted. when the julian calendar was first implemented we got two whole extra months.
20:02:13 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:144: error:
20:02:13 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
20:02:14 <riv> is this true?
20:06:42 <fizzie> Certainly something of that kind went on, as exemplified by `cal 1752`: https://0x0.st/o8az.txt
20:06:52 <fizzie> (The exact specifics probably depend on location.)
20:10:29 <riv> O_O spooky
20:10:35 <fizzie> For example, that's a gap of 11 days rather than 10, which AIUI would have been because 1700 was a leap year in one but not the other. If you were a 1582 early adopter, it probably would've been 10 days.
20:23:55 <b_jonas> I'm lazy to give an actual answer, but I collected some links to websites about calendars at the comment http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2003-10.html%23d.2003-10-30.0322#comment-27114
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22:37:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93146&oldid=93145 * Ais523 * (-957) clean sandbox it's getting a little out of hand again
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01:23:31 <esolangs> [[Twocode/Doublecode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93147&oldid=53793 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Category, back
02:34:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93148&oldid=93121 * David44 * (+44) Add language
02:52:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:David44]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93149 * David44 * (+8) Created page with "Talkpage"
04:16:10 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93150&oldid=92854 * PixelatedStarfish * (+302) /* External Links */
04:16:50 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93151&oldid=93150 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* =The Stat Instruction */
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09:05:19 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 Humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93152&oldid=92684 * David44 * (+39) Update after 1.2 release
09:10:07 <riv> fungot: have you studied probability by any chance?
09:10:08 <fungot> riv: does it seems in the second
09:10:19 <riv> fungot: how many subfields of combinatorics are there?
09:10:20 <fungot> riv: just to put ' are you any fun??
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10:38:54 <tromp> about (6 choose 3) subfields
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12:39:32 <int-e> Oh I finally checked this month's Ponder This... fun, but as usual these days, it feels rather underconstrained.
12:42:24 <int-e> ("underconstrained" -- I'm pretty sure you can do these with half as many terms as the required upper bounds, though I skipped reconstruction of solutions from the search, so there may be bugs.)
13:32:55 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93153&oldid=93092 * BowlingPizzaBall * (-23) removed pipe and extra fixation
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14:26:30 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9887joVqT7c
14:26:42 <riv> Do It Yourself - Bill Sutton
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14:43:01 <riv> https://github.com/jwilk/perl-friday
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18:47:58 <esolangs> [[Teramithic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93154 * Digital Hunter * (+9125) made a page for a language. Code examples to come
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20:20:16 <esolangs> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93155&oldid=80278 * Digital Hunter * (+210)
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20:38:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Teramithic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93156 * Digital Hunter * (+534) /* Computational class */ new section
20:39:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Teramithic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93157&oldid=93156 * Digital Hunter * (+107) oops, forgot to sign
20:46:16 <esolangs> [[Teramithic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93158&oldid=93154 * Digital Hunter * (+199) /* Examples */ added something like a truth-machine
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21:39:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93159&oldid=93148 * Oerjan * (-19) /* B */ orst
21:39:59 <oerjan> wait what
21:42:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Brainfuck 4 Humans]] to [[Brainfuck 4 humans]]: Capitalization not in actual name in article
21:42:48 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93162&oldid=93160 * Oerjan * (+14) lowercase template
21:44:36 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93163&oldid=92683 * Oerjan * (+0) snap redirect
21:51:27 <oerjan> <riv> we need it to be convex too <-- all simplices are convex, in fact they are sort of the simplest convex shapes, being exactly the convex hull of orthogonal unit vectors
21:52:26 <oerjan> (well, regular ones with side length sqrt(n))
21:52:38 <oerjan> or wait
21:52:46 <oerjan> no, sqrt(2)
21:54:51 <oerjan> (assume my brain ignored scaling)
21:57:14 <oerjan> (if you don't, these are called "standard" simplices)
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22:36:12 <int-e> `unidecode ᏬᏇᏬ
22:37:34 <HackEso> ​[U+13EC CHEROKEE LETTER WO] [U+13C7 CHEROKEE LETTER QUE] [U+13EC CHEROKEE LETTER WO]
22:40:57 <int-e> I'm so close to 100 terms for the Ponder This! bonus task... I wonder whether I'll actually get there.
22:42:15 <int-e> (I have 65 terms for the task, 101 for the bonus... did I mention that it feels underconstrained?)
22:56:24 <int-e> Ah, I got there.
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2022-02-17
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02:12:50 <b_jonas> fungot, if you were tied on the train tracks then how are you now here?
02:12:51 <fungot> b_jonas: it's about an east german woman who misses the fall of 2001" i still have no intention of imposing my preferences on you or others; that's why i put quotation marks around " extreme programming fnord"
03:57:37 <esolangs> [[Teramithic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93164&oldid=93158 * Digital Hunter * (+55) /* Truth-machine */ formatting and a note
04:00:32 <esolangs> [[Teramithic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93165&oldid=93164 * Digital Hunter * (+205) /* Examples */ added ackermann function
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09:33:22 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93166&oldid=93162 * David44 * (+188) /* Instructions */ bf4h 1.3 instructions
09:34:35 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93167&oldid=93166 * David44 * (-36) /* Implementations */ Update wording
09:36:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93168&oldid=93167 * David44 * (+522) /* Hello World */ add new example
09:38:21 <esolangs> [[2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93169&oldid=70225 * Ais523 * (+1165) proof that 2C is Turing-complete even if the strings are limited to being two characters long (assuming a sufficiently large character set)
09:52:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93170&oldid=93168 * David44 * (+28) /* Instructions */ update bf4h 1.3 instructions
10:07:39 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93171&oldid=93170 * David44 * (+394) /* Instructions */ yet another instruction section update
10:12:18 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93172&oldid=93171 * David44 * (+10) /* Instructions */ Change syntax of planned instruction
10:16:57 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck 4 humans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93173&oldid=93172 * David44 * (-8) Modify overview
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13:51:05 <esolangs> [[Where]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93174&oldid=89481 * Ketok * (-113)
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14:20:30 <esolangs> [[Where]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93175&oldid=93174 * Ketok * (+443)
14:31:35 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93176&oldid=93135 * Ketok * (+90)
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20:38:52 <b_jonas> fungot, can you non-violently explode?
20:38:53 <fungot> b_jonas: and howdy fnord! i don't think that sliced bread is that big,...? yeah, fuck you
20:41:29 <fizzie> fungot: Be nice.
20:41:29 <fungot> fizzie: it does suck to go to a fnord when the _majority_ of macros are already aware of that
20:41:41 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, we've all been there.
20:41:42 <fungot> fizzie: one /can/ litter tail calls all willy-nilly within ones code so as someone can help me i have a book on scheme
20:43:42 <int-e> fungot: your little schemes will come to an end now
20:43:42 <fungot> int-e: please dont ask rhetorical questions.... stacks?))
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21:40:48 <b_jonas> fungot: is there a rock stone for evolving Eevee into a rock type pokémon?
21:40:48 <fungot> b_jonas: that's all there _is_ to think about what it does, but i'm not
21:42:16 <zzo38> Not as far as I know. Which types they didn't add for Eevee yet?
21:42:54 <riv> https://lynndotpy.xyz/posts/reso_intro.html
21:43:49 <riv> https://github.com/lynnpepin/reso/blob/master/examples/failed_experiments/zz_glider_out__05.png
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22:30:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DanielE * New user account
22:37:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93177&oldid=93144 * DanielE * (+216)
22:40:59 <esolangs> [[User:DanielE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93178 * DanielE * (+177) Created page with "DanielE, someone interested in esolangs. (I wrote this myself) Im now busy with making an interpreter for my first esolang ever (still under construction). [[Category:Users]]"
22:41:33 <esolangs> [[User:DanielE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93179&oldid=93178 * DanielE * (-19)
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22:45:26 <esolangs> [[Xjansk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93180 * DanielE * (+219) Created page with "Xjansk is a stack-based esoteric programming language under construction by ~~~~. More information follows. [[Category:2022]] [[Category:X]]"
22:46:50 <esolangs> [[Xjansk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93181&oldid=93180 * DanielE * (-23)
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22:48:15 <esolangs> [[Xjansk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93182&oldid=93181 * DanielE * (+1)
22:50:19 <esolangs> [[Post correspondence problem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=93183 * Ais523 * (+7466) we should probably have a page about this, given that it's been around for ages, is quite important to esoprogramming, and can be interpreted as a programming language; I've given a TCness proof via [[2C]] as it's much simpler than the standard proof that implements a Tu
22:50:34 <esolangs> [[User:DanielE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93184&oldid=93179 * DanielE * (+15)
22:53:23 <esolangs> [[User:DanielE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93185&oldid=93184 * DanielE * (+4)
22:56:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93186&oldid=93159 * Ais523 * (+34) /* P */ +[[Post correspondence problem]]
22:57:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93187&oldid=93186 * DanielE * (+13) Added Xjansk
23:00:00 <esolangs> [[Post correspondence problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93188&oldid=93183 * Ais523 * (+485) /* Computational class */ explain why only two characters are needed
23:01:10 <esolangs> [[Post correspondence problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93189&oldid=93188 * Ais523 * (+7) /* Computational class */ minor proof fix
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23:08:02 <esolangs> [[Post correspondence problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93190&oldid=93189 * Ais523 * (-2) /* Computational class */ a better way to handle program termination
23:08:19 <esolangs> [[Post correspondence problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93191&oldid=93190 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ formatting
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23:29:37 <zzo38> What other programming languages have any of the bitwise operators of INTERCAL (and which ones)? I think sometimes the bit interleave and bit select operators are occasionally useful in other programs. I think some versions of x86-64 have a bit select operation, but does any operating system emulate it, yet?
23:30:31 <zzo38> Now there is a ,Morton operator in Free Hero Mesh which is like the bit interleave operator in INTERCAL, too, and is meant for doing things like: (INIT Image Morton =Shovable)
23:33:09 <zzo38> I think emulation of unimplemented instructions in the operating system was mentioned on here before too
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23:38:14 <Corbin> zzo38: Under a different name, it shows up in some GPU hardware (nVidia IIRC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-order_curve
23:39:03 <fizzie> It's not exactly a programming language, but the x86 "BMI2" extension's instructions PDEP and PEXT are slightly similar to them (with the right sort of mask).
23:39:51 <fizzie> PEXT and INTERCAL select especially.
23:40:12 <zzo38> O, yes, I suppose that is the extension that I meant. Does any operating system emulate the instruction if you are using a computer that lacks the BMI2 extension in the hardware?
23:41:51 <zzo38> If some GPU hardware has it, does SPIR-V have such a thing?
23:42:49 <esolangs> [[Teramithic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=93192&oldid=93165 * Digital Hunter * (+421) /* Examples */ talked about good wildcards to use
23:42:53 <fizzie> I seem to recall QEMU can emulate at least some processor features when the host system is missing them, but I couldn't find documentation on it readily, and I don't know if it does that one even if it does support the general concept.
23:47:36 <zzo38> I still think that the MOR and MXOR instructions of MMIX are useful, although I don't know if other instruction sets have such things (other than maybe 64-bit WebAssembly?) I had seen the bit manipulation instructions of RISC-V once (although I forget what it said), and I thought it is worse than MMIX; the bit select operator also could be useful but might be difficult to be implemented efficiently
23:49:40 <zzo38> (Also MOR you can deal with the PDP-endian easily enough too, if you have file formats that use it)